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Classified America

Is national security state in the USA gone rogue ?

News Corporatism Recommended Links Mystery of Building 7 Collapse The Deep State Neo-fashism Nation under attack meme
Neoliberal war on reality or the importance of controlling the narrative JFK assassination as a turning event in US history 9/11 as Reichstag fire  Inverted Totalitarism Reconciling Human Rights With Total Surveillance Neoliberal Brainwashing -- Journalism in the Service of the Powerful Few Edward Snowden as Symbol of Resistance to National Security State
Total Surveillance Media-Military-Industrial Complex The Grand Chessboard Elite Theory And the Revolt of the Elite The Iron Law of Oligarchy Machiavellism Neocolonialism as Financial Imperialism
Facebook as Giant Database about Users Social Sites as intelligence collection tools Systematic Breach of Vienna Convention American Exceptionalism New American Militarism US and British media are servants of security apparatus Allan Dulles
The attempt to secure global hegemony Anatol Leiven on American Messianism The Real War on Reality Totalitarian Decisionism & Human Rights: The Re-emergence of Nazi Law   Humor Etc
A January report from the Office of the Director of National Intelligence says more than 4.9 million people have some sort of government security clearance. About 1.4 million of those lay claim to "top secret" clearance.... Security clearances held by millions of Americans

So there is a state within the state in the USA with this "inner state" represented by holder of security clearance. Almost 5 million people is more more then 1% of population.

Hierarchy

A security clearance is granted to an individual and generally recognizes a maximum level of clearance. Exceptions include levels above compartmentalized access or when an individual is cleared for a certain type of data. The President of the United States may be given access to any government or military information that they request if there is a proper "need to know", even if they would not otherwise be able to normally obtain a security clearance were they not the President. Having obtained a certain level security clearance does not mean that one automatically has access to or is given access to information cleared for that clearance level in the absence of a demonstrated "need to know".[12] The "need-to-know" determination is made by a 'disclosure officer,' who may work in the office of origin of the information. The specified "need to know" must be germane to the prospective user's mission, or of necessity for the integrity of a specified security apparatus.

Controlled Unclassified

"Controlled Unclassified" does not represent a clearance designation, but rather a clearance level at which information distribution is controlled. Controlled Unclassified designates information that may be illegal to distribute. This information is available when needed by government employees, such as the USA's Department of Defense (DoD) employees, but the designation signifies that the information should not be redistributed to users not designated to use it on an operational basis. For example, the organization and processes of an information-technology system may be designated Controlled Unclassified to users for whom the operational details of the system are non-critical.

Public Trust Position

Despite common misconception, this designation is not a security clearance, and is not the same as the confidential designation. Certain positions which require access to sensitive information, but not information which is classified, must obtain this designation through a background check. In the USA, Public Trust Positions can either be moderate-risk or high-risk.[13][14]

Confidential

This is hierarchically the first security clearance to get, typically requiring a few weeks to a few months of investigation. A Confidential clearance requires a NACLC investigation which dates back 7 years on the subject's record and must be renewed (with another investigation) every 15 years.

Secret

A Secret clearance, also known as Collateral Secret or Ordinary Secret, requires a few months to a year to investigate, depending on the individual's background. Some instances wherein individuals would take longer than normal to be investigated are many past residences, having residences in foreign countries, having relatives outside the United States, or significant ties with non-US citizens. Unpaid bills as well as criminal charges will more than likely disqualify an applicant for approval. However, a bankruptcy will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis and is not an automatic disqualifier. Poor financial history is the number-one cause of rejection, and foreign activities and criminal record are also common causes for disqualification. A Secret clearance requires a NACLC, and a Credit investigation; it must also be re-investigated every 10 years.[15] Investigative requirements for DoD clearances, which apply to most civilian contractor situations, are contained in the Personnel Security Program issuance known as DoD Regulation 5200.2-R, at part C3.4.2

Top Secret

Top Secret is a more stringent clearance. A Top Secret, or "TS", clearance, is often given as the result of a Single Scope Background Investigation, or SSBI. Top Secret clearances, in general, afford one access to data that affects national security, counterterrorism/counterintelligence, or other highly sensitive data. There are far fewer individuals with TS clearances than Secret clearances.[16] A TS clearance can take as few as 3 to 6 months to obtain, but often it takes 6 to 18 months. The SSBI must be reinvestigated every 5 years.[15] In order to receive TS clearance, all candidates must participate in an oral SF86 review that will later be adjudicated.[citation needed]

Compartmented

As with TS clearances, Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI) clearances are assigned only after one has been through the rigors of a Single Scope Background Investigation and a special adjudication process for evaluating the investigation. SCI access, however, is assigned only in "compartments". These compartments are necessarily separated from each other with respect to organization, so that an individual with access to one compartment will not necessarily have access to another. Each compartment may include its own additional special requirements and clearance process. An individual may be granted access to, or read into, a compartment for any period of time.

Top secret clearance might be required to access:

Such compartmentalized clearances may be expressed as "John has a TS/SCI", whereby all clearance descriptors are spelled out verbally. For example, the US National Security Agency once used specialized terms such as "Umbra",[17][18][19] This classification is reported to be a compartment within the "Special Intelligence" compartment of SCI.[20] The various NSA compartments have been simplified; all but the most sensitive compartments are marked "CCO", meaning "handle through COMINT channels only".

The US Department of Defense establishes, separately from intelligence compartments, special access programs (SAP) when the vulnerability of specific information is considered exceptional and the normal criteria for determining eligibility for access applicable to information classified at the same level are not deemed sufficient to protect the information from unauthorized disclosure. The number of people cleared for access to such programs is typically kept low. Information about stealth technology, for example, often requires such access.

Area-specific clearances include:


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[May 23, 2017] The speed of explanation might well be a useful False Flag indicator. For a False Flag to work, it cant have alternative perpetrators or confusion as to who did what. The story has to be presented fully formed and at high volume right from the start

Notable quotes:
"... nowadays my default position is to assume it's a false flag/hoax and wait for the Grassy Knollers to arrive and dismantle the narrative. ..."
"... I've also come to the understanding that the most salient point of these events is the exploitation that now inevitably follows. The manner, method, and speed with which the soon-to-follow attempt at exploitation propagates is more interesting than the actual event. ..."
May 23, 2017 | www.unz.com

Miro23 , May 23, 2017 at 6:25 am GMT

@Erebus WND has a good update on developments, even though it is "according to a WND source close to the situation."...
http://www.wnd.com/2017/05/bar-manager-cops-never-talked-with-staff-about-night-seth-rich-died/

The frustration in trying to figure out what is going on is that the world is now full of "sound and fury" signifying, not nothing but the frantic efforts by competing factions to control narratives. The noise is everywhere, all the time, and reading 30k words of crap to glean 1k words of plausibility requires an ongoing investment that's difficult to maintain. So, I've taken a different tack...

Take the Manchester bomb last night. Too early, and too little info for me to come to any sort of conclusion, but nowadays my default position is to assume it's a false flag/hoax and wait for the Grassy Knollers to arrive and dismantle the narrative. Right or wrong, they provide an invaluable yeoman's service in ferreting out what really happened.

I've also come to the understanding that the most salient point of these events is the exploitation that now inevitably follows. The manner, method, and speed with which the soon-to-follow attempt at exploitation propagates is more interesting than the actual event. It's the "Why?" behind the "How?". So, I'll wait to see whether the West should "Bomb Iran/Syria/Yemen!", or if "The Russians did it!" after all. Maybe it was the "Brexit" supporters, or the "Bremains". I don't know at this point, but it will clear up soon. 19-20 dead, so this is big enough to set the stage for somebody's meme.

Apropos the Seth Rich/email saga...

I was excitedly directed to a poster who appeared on 4Chan recently, claiming to be the ER surgeon on duty when Rich was brought in. The poster says the wounds were not life threatening, gives some details of his/her treatment of Rich's routine abdominal gunshot wounds, and weaves a coherent, professional sounding narrative about hospital routines and their disruption by Law Enforcement. All quite plausible, except for the fact that his/her timeline makes no sense, and contradicts what is officially known. Also, (s)he'd be trivial to identify, so why bother with anonymity? IOW, probably a provocation, so I wasted half an hour finding and reading it.

[May 22, 2017] NSA is here to help you or Spying as a service (SAAS)

May 22, 2017 | www.unz.com

Willem Hendrik, May 21, 2017 at 9:50 pm GMT

Look at the bright side; If you lost the grocery list your wife gave you, call the NSA and ask them to send you a copy.

If your boss denies promising you a raise call NSA for supporting materials.

SAAS ( Spying as a service)

[May 22, 2017] The Russian Obsession Goes Back Decades by Jacob G. Hornberger

Notable quotes:
"... Just consider the accusations that have been leveled at the president: ..."
"... He has committed treason by befriending Russia and other enemies of America. ..."
"... He has subjugated America's interests to Moscow. ..."
"... President Donald Trump? No, President John F. Kennedy. What lots of Americans don't realize, because it was kept secret from them for so long, is that what Trump has been enduring from the national-security establishment, the mainstream press, and the American right-wing for his outreach to, or "collusion with," Russia pales compared to what Kennedy had to endure for committing the heinous "crime" of reaching out to Russia and the rest of the Soviet Union in a spirit of peace and friendship. They hated him for it. They abused him. They insulted him. They belittled him. They called him naïve. They said he was a traitor. All of the nasties listed above, plus more, were contained in an advertisement and a flier that appeared in Dallas on the morning of November 22, 1963, the day that Kennedy was assassinated. They can be read here and here . Ever since then, some people have tried to make it seem like the advertisement and flier expressed only the feelings of extreme right-wingers in Dallas. That's nonsense. They expressed the deeply held convictions of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the CIA, the conservative movement, and many people within the mainstream media and Washington establishment. In June 1963, Kennedy threw down the gauntlet in a speech he delivered at American University, now entitled the " Peace Speech ." It was one of the most remarkable speeches ever delivered by an American president. It was broadcast all across the communist Soviet Union, the first time that had ever been done. ..."
"... Kennedy wasn't dumb. He knew what he was up against. He had heard Eisenhower warn the American people in his Farewell Address about the dangers to their freedom and democratic way of life posed by the military establishment. After Kennedy had read the novel Seven Days in May, ..."
"... Kennedy didn't stop with his Peace Speech. He also began negotiating a treaty with the Soviets to end above-ground nuclear testing, an action that incurred even more anger and ire within the Pentagon and the CIA. ..."
"... By this time, Kennedy's war with the national-security establishment was in full swing. He had already vowed to tear the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds after its perfidious conduct in the Bay of Pigs fiasco. By this time, he had also lost all confidence in the military after it proposed an all-out surprise nuclear attack on the Soviet Union, much as Japan had done at Pearl Harbor, after the infamous plan known as Operation Northwoods, which proposed terrorist attacks and plane hijackings carried out by U.S. agents posing as Cuban communists, so as to provide a pretext for invading Cuba, and after the Cuban Missile Crisis, when the military establishment accused him of appeasement and treason for agreeing not to ever invade Cuba again. ..."
"... What Kennedy didn't know was that his "secret" negotiations with the Soviet and Cuban communists weren't so secret after all. As it turns out, it was a virtual certainty that the CIA (or NSA) was listening in on telephone conversations of Cuban officials at the UN in New York City, much as the CIA and NSA still do today, during which they would have learned what the president was secretly doing behind their backs. ..."
"... In response to the things that were said in that advertisement and flier about him being a traitor for befriending Russia, he told his wife Jackie on the morning he was assassinated: "We are heading into nut country today." Of course, as he well knew, the nuts weren't located only in Dallas. They were also situated throughout the U.S. national-security establishment ..."
"... For more information, attend The Future of Freedom Foundation's one-day conference on June 3, 2017, entitled " The National Security State and JFK " at the Washington Dulles Marriott Hotel. ..."
May 20, 2017 | ronpaulinstitute.org

Just consider the accusations that have been leveled at the president:

  1. He has betrayed the Constitution, which he swore to uphold.
  2. He has committed treason by befriending Russia and other enemies of America.
  3. He has subjugated America's interests to Moscow.
  4. He has been caught in fantastic lies to the American people, including personal ones, like his previous marriage and divorce.
President Donald Trump? No, President John F. Kennedy. What lots of Americans don't realize, because it was kept secret from them for so long, is that what Trump has been enduring from the national-security establishment, the mainstream press, and the American right-wing for his outreach to, or "collusion with," Russia pales compared to what Kennedy had to endure for committing the heinous "crime" of reaching out to Russia and the rest of the Soviet Union in a spirit of peace and friendship.

They hated him for it. They abused him. They insulted him. They belittled him. They called him naïve. They said he was a traitor.

All of the nasties listed above, plus more, were contained in an advertisement and a flier that appeared in Dallas on the morning of November 22, 1963, the day that Kennedy was assassinated. They can be read here and here .

Ever since then, some people have tried to make it seem like the advertisement and flier expressed only the feelings of extreme right-wingers in Dallas. That's nonsense. They expressed the deeply held convictions of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the CIA, the conservative movement, and many people within the mainstream media and Washington establishment.

In June 1963, Kennedy threw down the gauntlet in a speech he delivered at American University, now entitled the " Peace Speech ." It was one of the most remarkable speeches ever delivered by an American president. It was broadcast all across the communist Soviet Union, the first time that had ever been done.

In the speech, Kennedy announced that he was bringing an end to the Cold War and the mindset of hostility toward Russia and the rest of the Soviet Union that the U.S. national-security establishment had inculcated in the minds of the American people ever since the end of World War II.

It was a radical notion and, as Kennedy well understood, a very dangerous one insofar as he was concerned. The Cold War against America's World War II partner and ally had been used to convert the United States from a limited-government republic to a national-security state, one consisting of a vast, permanent military establishment, the CIA, and the NSA, along with their broad array of totalitarian-like powers, such as assassination, regime change, coups, invasions, torture, surveillance, and the like. Everyone was convinced that the Cold War - and the so-called threat from the international communist conspiracy that was supposedly based in Russia - would last forever, which would naturally mean permanent and ever-increasing largess for what Kennedy's predecessor, President Dwight Eisenhower, had called the "military-industrial complex."

Suddenly, Kennedy was upending the Cold War apple cart by threatening to establish a relationship of friendship and peaceful coexistence with Russia, the rest of the Soviet Union, and Cuba.

Kennedy knew full well that his actions were considered by some to be a grave threat to "national security." After all, don't forget that it was Guatemalan President Jacobo Arbenz's outreach to the Soviets in a spirit of friendship that got him ousted from power by the CIA and presumably targeted for assassination as part of that regime-change operation. It was Cuban leader Fidel Castro's outreach to the Soviets in a spirit of friendship that made him the target of Pentagon and CIA regime-change operations, including through invasion, assassination, and sanctions. It was Congo leader's Patrice Lamumba's outreach to the Soviets in a spirit of friendship that got him targeted for assassination by the CIA. It would be Chilean President Salvador Allende's outreach to the Soviets in a spirit of friendship that got him targeted in a CIA-instigated coup in Chile that resulted in Allende's death.

Kennedy wasn't dumb. He knew what he was up against. He had heard Eisenhower warn the American people in his Farewell Address about the dangers to their freedom and democratic way of life posed by the military establishment. After Kennedy had read the novel Seven Days in May, which posited the danger of a military coup in America, he asked friends in Hollywood to make it into a movie to serve as a warning to the American people. In the midst of the Cuban Missile Crisis, when the Pentagon and the CIA were exerting extreme pressure on Kennedy to bomb and invade Cuba, his brother Bobby told a Soviet official with whom he was negotiating that the president was under a severe threat of being ousted in a coup. And, of course, Kennedy was fully mindful of what had happened to Arbenz, Lamumba, and Castro for doing what Kennedy was now doing - reaching out to the Soviets in a spirit of friendship.

In the eyes of the national-security establishment, one simply did not reach out to Russia, Cuba, or any other "enemy" of America. Doing so, in their eyes, made Kennedy an appeaser, betrayer, traitor, and a threat to "national security."

Kennedy didn't stop with his Peace Speech. He also began negotiating a treaty with the Soviets to end above-ground nuclear testing, an action that incurred even more anger and ire within the Pentagon and the CIA. Yes, that's right - they said that "national security" depended on the U.S. government's continuing to do what they object to North Korea doing today - conducting nuclear tests, both above ground and below ground.

Kennedy mobilized public opinion to overcome fierce opposition in the military, CIA, Congress, and the Washington establishment to secure passage of his Nuclear Test Ban Treaty.

He then ordered a partial withdrawal of troops from Vietnam, and told close aides that he would order a complete pull-out after winning the 1964 election. In the eyes of the U.S. national-security establishment, leaving Vietnam subject to a communist takeover would pose a grave threat to national security here in the United States.

Worst of all, from the standpoint of the national-security establishment, Kennedy began secret personal negotiations with Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev and Cuban leader Fidel Castro to bring an end to America's Cold War against them. That was considered to be a grave threat to "national security" as well as a grave threat to all the military and intelligence largess that depended on the Cold War.

By this time, Kennedy's war with the national-security establishment was in full swing. He had already vowed to tear the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds after its perfidious conduct in the Bay of Pigs fiasco. By this time, he had also lost all confidence in the military after it proposed an all-out surprise nuclear attack on the Soviet Union, much as Japan had done at Pearl Harbor, after the infamous plan known as Operation Northwoods, which proposed terrorist attacks and plane hijackings carried out by U.S. agents posing as Cuban communists, so as to provide a pretext for invading Cuba, and after the Cuban Missile Crisis, when the military establishment accused him of appeasement and treason for agreeing not to ever invade Cuba again.

What Kennedy didn't know was that his "secret" negotiations with the Soviet and Cuban communists weren't so secret after all. As it turns out, it was a virtual certainty that the CIA (or NSA) was listening in on telephone conversations of Cuban officials at the UN in New York City, much as the CIA and NSA still do today, during which they would have learned what the president was secretly doing behind their backs.

Kennedy's feelings toward the people who were calling him a traitor for befriending Moscow and other "enemies" of America? In response to the things that were said in that advertisement and flier about him being a traitor for befriending Russia, he told his wife Jackie on the morning he was assassinated: "We are heading into nut country today." Of course, as he well knew, the nuts weren't located only in Dallas. They were also situated throughout the U.S. national-security establishment.

For more information, attend The Future of Freedom Foundation's one-day conference on June 3, 2017, entitled " The National Security State and JFK " at the Washington Dulles Marriott Hotel.

Reprinted with permission from the Future of Freedom Foundation .

[May 21, 2017] Now we have a government dominated by Banking and Distribution, think Goldman Sacks and Walmart

Notable quotes:
"... Over the last thirty years the power of the Manufacturing and Infrastructure concerns has fallen dramatically. So now we have a government dominated by Banking and Distribution, think Goldman Sacks and Walmart. ..."
"... According to former CIA director Richard Helms, when Allen Dulles was tasked in 1946 to "draft proposals for the shape and organization of what was to become the Central Intelligence Agency," he recruited an advisory group of six men made up almost exclusively of Wall Street investment bankers and lawyers. ..."
"... Dulles himself was an attorney at the prominent Wall Street law firm, Sullivan and Cromwell. Two years later, Dulles became the chairman of a three-man committee which reviewed the young agency's performance. ..."
"... So we see that from the beginning the CIA was an exclusive Wall Street club. Allen Dulles himself became the first civilian Director of Central Intelligence in early 1953. ..."
"... The current Democratic Party was handed two golden opportunities and blew both of them. Obama blew the 2008 financial crisis. And Hillary Clinton blew the 2016 election. ..."
"... Neoliberal Democrats seek to create the same tribablist/identity voting block on the left that the republicans have on the right. The is why people like sanjait get totally spastic when progressives criticize the party. ..."
May 21, 2017 | economistsview.typepad.com

Gibbon1 , May 19, 2017 at 04:24 PM

Among the rich I think there were three groups based on where their wealth and interests laid.

Banking/Insurance industry.
Distribution/logistics.
Manufacturing and Infrastructure.

Over the last thirty years the power of the Manufacturing and Infrastructure concerns has fallen dramatically. So now we have a government dominated by Banking and Distribution, think Goldman Sacks and Walmart.

libezkova - , May 20, 2017 at 09:03 PM
"Over the last thirty years the power of the Manufacturing and Infrastructure concerns has fallen dramatically. So now we have a government dominated by Banking and Distribution, think Goldman Sacks and Walmart."

This trend does not apply to Military-industrial complex (MIC). MIC probably should be listed separately. Formally it is a part of manufacturing and infrastructure, but in reality it is closely aligned with Banking and insurance.

CIA which is the cornerstone of the military industrial complex to a certain extent is an enforcement arm for financial corporations.

Allen Dulles came the law firm that secured interests of Wall Street in foreign countries, see http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article30605.htm )

According to former CIA director Richard Helms, when Allen Dulles was tasked in 1946 to "draft proposals for the shape and organization of what was to become the Central Intelligence Agency," he recruited an advisory group of six men made up almost exclusively of Wall Street investment bankers and lawyers.

Dulles himself was an attorney at the prominent Wall Street law firm, Sullivan and Cromwell. Two years later, Dulles became the chairman of a three-man committee which reviewed the young agency's performance.

The other two members of the committee were also New York lawyers. For nearly a year, the committee met in the offices of J.H. Whitney, a Wall Street investment firm.

According to Peter Dale Scott, over the next twenty years, all seven deputy directors of the agency were drawn from the Wall Street financial aristocracy; and six were listed in the New York social register.

So we see that from the beginning the CIA was an exclusive Wall Street club. Allen Dulles himself became the first civilian Director of Central Intelligence in early 1953.

The prevalent myth that the CIA exists to provide intelligence information to the president was the promotional vehicle used to persuade President Harry Truman to sign the 1947 National Security Act, the legislation which created the CIA.iv

But the rationale about serving the president was never more than a partial and very imperfect truth...

Gibbon1 - , May 19, 2017 at 04:59 PM
The current Democratic Party was handed two golden opportunities and blew both of them. Obama blew the 2008 financial crisis. And Hillary Clinton blew the 2016 election.

If you have a tool and the tool it broken you try to fix it. One doesn't pretend there is nothing wrong.

The difference between neoliberal democrats and progressives is they differ on what's wrong.

Neoliberal Democrats seek to create the same tribablist/identity voting block on the left that the republicans have on the right. The is why people like sanjait get totally spastic when progressives criticize the party.

Progressives seek to create an aggressive party that represents the interests of working class and petite bourgeoisie. That is why you see progressives get spastic when the corporate democrats push appeasement policies.

[May 19, 2017] I encourage at least skim some of these documents to get a better understanding of the kinds of sickening things perpetrated by the intel community in the past and then ask yourself if the veil of secrecy that surrounds them is to keep secrets from the enemy or to keep the American public from vomiting.

Notable quotes:
"... I found it an odd mix of straight-talk and naivete. The NSA can't spy on Americans without a warrant? Go ahead, pull the other one. ..."
"... This caught my eye earlier. Had to come back to it. Especially after reading Mike Whitney's latest http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/05/19/seth-rich-craig-murray-and-the-sinister-stewards-of-the-national-security-state/ . In it, he details how seriously Clapper, Brennan et al. take those "laws and procedures." ..."
"... Taking a recent and relevant example, remember the ICA, the "Intelligence Community Assessment"? Whitney quotes a Fox news article detailing the many ways in which it's production varied sharply from normal procedures. And of course there was all that "stove-piping" of "intel" that helped make the bogus case for the 2003 war of aggression against Iraq ..."
"... Glad you liked it. Lily Tomlin applies: "No matter how cynical you get, it's impossible to keep up." ..."
"... Excellent post, except for the bit, as some other readers have commented, about American intelligence agencies being law abiding. Europe, and much of the world, crumbled without resistance in the face of the tech juggernauts because of the PR fetishization of anything that came out of silicon valley. ..."
May 19, 2017 | www.nakedcapitalism.com
Huey Long , May 19, 2017 at 12:00 pm

This piece is absolutely fantastic! Not to nit pick, but I do disagree with the author about the following passage:

Even if you think our intelligence agencies are evil, they're a lawful evil. They have to follow laws and procedures, and the people in those agencies take them seriously.

But there are no such protections for non-Americans outside the United States. The NSA would have to go to court to spy on me; they can spy on you anytime they feel like it.

We know from the Church and Pike committees that this is patently false, and I highly doubt that this has changed much since then, especially in light of Iran-Contra and the made-up intel used to justify the Iraq invasion.

I know I probably sound like a broken record as I often cite the Church and Pike reports in my NC comments, but they're just so little known and so important that I feel compelled to do so.

I encourage the entire commenteriat to at least skim some of these documents to get a better understanding of the kinds of sickening things perpetrated by the intel community in the past and then ask yourself if the veil of secrecy that surrounds them is to keep secrets from the enemy or to keep the American public from vomiting.

diptherio , May 19, 2017 at 12:05 pm

I found it an odd mix of straight-talk and naivete. The NSA can't spy on Americans without a warrant? Go ahead, pull the other one. Talking about the "collapse of representative government" as if we've ever had one. All very cute, and very silly.

His suggestions for putting the brakes on are good, but insufficient. My ideas as to how to go about, "connecting the tech industry to reality. Bringing its benefits to more people, and bringing the power to make decisions to more people," is here:

http://threadingthepearls.blogspot.com/2014/11/youre-doing-it-wrong-politics-as-if.html

Imagine a political party with no national platform-a party where local rank-and-file members select candidates from among themselves, and dictate the policies those candidates will support. [2] Imagine a political party whose candidates are transparent; one that guarantees every member an equal voice in shaping the actual policy proposals-and the votes-of their representatives. Imagine a political party whose focus is on empowering the rank-and-file members, instead of the charismatic con-artists we call politicians. Imagine a political party that runs on direct democracy, from bottom to top: open, transparent and accountable . we'll need an app maybe two

The app already exists, actually, and it's called Loomio. Podemos uses it, along with a lot of other people:

https://www.loomio.org/

JustAnObserver , May 19, 2017 at 12:44 pm

I had the same reaction to that passage, at least initially. However what I think the author might mean by this is that to have the means to combat this evil 2 things are necessary:

o Laws and/or procedures that place limitations on the actions of these agencies – NSA, CIA, DHS etc.

o and, much much more important, the means to ensure those laws/procedures are *enforced* as to both statute and intent.

USians have at least the first part even if the second, enforcement, has rotted to the extent of being no more than a cruel joke. non-USian have neither.

Note that the lack of enforcement thing extends far beyond the IC agencies into anti-trust, environmental regulation, Sarbanes-Oxley, etc. etc.. Even the ludicrous botch called Dodd-Frank could work marginally better if there was some attempt to actually enforce it.

Wisdom Seeker , May 19, 2017 at 1:03 pm

"Dodd-Frank could work marginally better if there was some attempt to actually enforce it."

Unenforceable and unenforced laws are a feature, not a bug, and demonstrate the corruption of the system.

Bugs Bunny , May 19, 2017 at 2:14 pm

The USSR had laws guaranteeing freedom of expression.

Michael Fiorillo , May 19, 2017 at 5:35 pm

It's a fine and entertaining piece, but flawed.

That bit about tech workers defying management to protest Trump's travel ban seems demonstrably untrue, as the companies want that human capital pipeline kept open, and they can simultaneously wrap themselves in muliti-cultural virtue as they defend their employment practices.

Also, and I know people here will disagree or think it irrelevant, but the "They're not bad people," thing is wrong; I think people such as Thiel, Kalanick, Zuckerberg, Ellison, add-your-own-candidates, seem like pretty awful people doing a lot of awful things, whatever their brilliance, business acumen, and relentlessness.

Finally, while as a union guy I was pleased to see the importance he gave it, the idea of tech workers unionizing in this country seems like social science fiction, whatever their European counterparts might hopefully do.

TheCatSaid , May 19, 2017 at 3:18 pm

I, too, stumbled / choked when I read those paragraphs. They are provably false in so many dimensions I hardly know where to begin. It made it hard to read past.

I will try again because so many commenters are so positive. But the author's credibility sinks when a piece starts with such blindness or misinformation or pandering.

PhilM , May 19, 2017 at 3:41 pm

On the one hand, it's probably some pandering, because he knows he is being watched. We all throw that same bone once in a while. From Vergil, it is called "a sop to Cerberus." On the other hand, he is correct, too: it is a "lawful evil" because it functions using tax money, which is money extorted by force with the sanction of law, rather than "chaotic evil," which is money extorted by force or fraud without that sanction. So in that positive-law-philosophy way of thinking, he has a point, even if it's a pandering point.

knowbuddhau , May 19, 2017 at 12:16 pm

>>>"They have to follow laws and procedures, and the people in those agencies take them seriously."

This caught my eye earlier. Had to come back to it. Especially after reading Mike Whitney's latest http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/05/19/seth-rich-craig-murray-and-the-sinister-stewards-of-the-national-security-state/ . In it, he details how seriously Clapper, Brennan et al. take those "laws and procedures."

Taking a recent and relevant example, remember the ICA, the "Intelligence Community Assessment"? Whitney quotes a Fox news article detailing the many ways in which it's production varied sharply from normal procedures. And of course there was all that "stove-piping" of "intel" that helped make the bogus case for the 2003 war of aggression against Iraq .

I appreciate the author's point: it would be harder to surveil a particular American than a European. I'm sure rank & file people by & large respect law and procedure. But don't worry, if there's a political will to get you, there's a way. Ask Chelsea Manning.

Whitney concludes by quoting an especially apt question posed by Michael Glennon in the May issue of Harper's: "Who would trust the authors of past episodes of repression as a reliable safeguard against future repression?"

People who think they're immune to said repression, for one. Or who don't know or believe it happened/is happening at all. IOW political elites and most Americans, that's who. I think there's a good chance the soft coup will work, and most Americans would even accept a President-General.

So while I see the author's point, I see it this way. They take laws and procedures seriously like I take traffic laws seriously. Only their solution is to corrupt law enforcement, not follow the law.

"Stop throwing the Constitution in my face, it's just a goddamned piece of paper!" - President George W. Bush

Silicon Valley elites apparently think the same.

TheCatSaid , May 19, 2017 at 3:25 pm

Mike Whitney's article you linked to was interesting. George Webb's ongoing YouTube series is going further still, as he is uncovering numerous anomalies with Seth Rich's death and the circumstances and "investigation". It turns out that nothing in this story is what it seems (the "school play" scenario).

Disturbingly, there are similarities and patterns that connect up with numerous other patterns discussed earlier in this 208-day (so far) odyssey, which started with looking at irregularities around oil pipelines and drugs shipments, and ended up including numerous additional criminal enterprises, all with direct links to high-up government staff and political staff from both major parties, with links among key participants going back over decades in some cases.

To return to your observation–knowing what I know now–personal as well as second-hand, I don't think it's harder to surveil an american than a european. The compromises of law enforcement, justice and intelligence and rogue contractors have no international boundaries. The way the compromises are done vary depending on local methods, and the degree of public awareness may vary, but the actuality and ease–no different overall.

knowbuddhau , May 19, 2017 at 3:36 pm

Glad you liked it. Lily Tomlin applies: "No matter how cynical you get, it's impossible to keep up."

TheCatSaid , May 19, 2017 at 4:31 pm

That says it all. The rabbit holes are many and deep. As a society we are in for many rude awakenings. I don't expect soft landings.

mwbworld , May 19, 2017 at 12:22 pm

Lots of great stuff in here, but I'll raise a slight objection to:

three or four people who use Linux on the desktop, all of whom are probably at this conference.

We're now up to easily 5 or 6 thank you very much, and I wasn't at the conference. ;-)

MoiAussie , May 19, 2017 at 12:30 pm

Make that 7.

HotFlash , May 19, 2017 at 1:05 pm

Eight, nine and ten in this household. I don't use any Google-stuff and have hard-deleted my Facebook account. At least they told me had, I should ask a friend to check to see if I am still there ;)

voislav , May 19, 2017 at 1:23 pm

But we all know that a Linux user is worth only 3/5 of a regular user, so we are back to 6. Writing this from a 2003 vintage Pentium 4 machine running Linux Mint 17.

knowbuddhau , May 19, 2017 at 3:40 pm

8. Built this thing myself 5 years ago. It's a quad core on an MSI mobo. Or maybe I only count as a half, since it's a dual boot with Linux Mint 17.3/Win7 Pro.

Disturbed Voter , May 19, 2017 at 12:54 pm

A history lesson. The PC brought freedom from the IT department, until networking enslaved us again. The freedom was temporary, we were originally supposed to be serfs of a timeshare system connected to a mainframe. France was ahead of the US in that, they had MiniTel. But like everything French is was efficient but static. In Europe, like in the US, the PC initially liberated, and then with networking, enslaved. Arpanet was the predecessor of the Internet it was a Cold War system of survivable networking, for some people. The invention of HTTP and the browser at CERN democratized the Arpanet. But it also greatly enabled State-sponsored snooping.

We are now moving to cloud storage and Chrome-books which will restore the original vision of a timeshare system connected to a mainframe, but at a higher technical standard. What was envisioned in 1968 will be achieved, but later than planned, and in a round about way. We are not the polity we used to be. In 1968 this would have been viewed by the public with suspicion. But after 50 years later the public will view this as progress.

Huey Long , May 19, 2017 at 1:22 pm

In 1968 this would have been viewed by the public with suspicion. But after 50 years later the public will view this as progress.

50 years of being force fed Bernays Sauce will tend to do that to a people :-(.

LT , May 19, 2017 at 2:50 pm

One thing just as dangerous and limiting as the idealized past of the conservative mindset is the idealized sense of progress of the the liberal mindset.

MyLessThanPrimeBeef , May 19, 2017 at 2:15 pm

You have 'a little learning is a dangerous thing.'

Then you have the Andromeda Strain that is toxic within a small PH range.

That is to say, nothing is inherently good or bad. It depends on when, where, what and how much.

And so the PC brought freedom and now it doesn't.

I suspect likewise with left-wing ideas and right-wing ideas. "How much of it? When?"

duck1 , May 19, 2017 at 1:09 pm

SV tech owners (think about) . . . the cool toys they'll spend profits on . . . run by chuckle heads . . . identify with progressive values . . . they want to help . . . run by a feckless leadership accountable to no one . . .
Can't send them to Mars quick enough, I say.

Oregoncharles , May 19, 2017 at 1:13 pm

." Even if you think our intelligence agencies are evil, they're a lawful evil. They have to follow laws and procedures, and the people in those agencies take them seriously."

This is standup comedy?

Huey Long , May 19, 2017 at 1:24 pm

This is standup comedy?

To the NCer, yes.

To the general public who have swallowed what I like to call the "Jack Ryan Narrative" of how things are at the CIA, no.

duck1 , May 19, 2017 at 1:47 pm

The real kneeslapper was. . . American government (also) run by chuckle heads . . . what happens when these two groups . . . join forces?
Knock me over with a feather, let us know when that happens. How many Friedman units will we have to wait?

Oregoncharles , May 19, 2017 at 1:19 pm

"And outside of Russia and China, Google is the world's search engine."

How can this be? I don't use it except very rarely; my wife does, but complains about it bitterly, and so do people here at NC, presumably tech-savvy. My wife is using it out of pure habit; what about the rest of them?

Phemfrog , May 19, 2017 at 2:53 pm

I literally don't know anyone who doesn't use it.

Oregoncharles , May 19, 2017 at 1:28 pm

"Given this scary state of the world, with ecological collapse just over the horizon, and a population sharpening its pitchforks, "
And unfortunately, that's the likeliest solution. (The family blogging "L" on this keyboard doesn't work right, so make some allowances.)

Despite my nitpicks above, this is a very important speech and a frightening issue. In particular, I've long been concerned that so much organizing depends on giant corporations like Faceborg and Twitter. They have no reason to be our friends, and some important reasons, like this speech, to be our enemies. Do we have a backup if FB and Google decide to censor the Internet for serious?

Thuto , May 19, 2017 at 1:33 pm

Excellent post, except for the bit, as some other readers have commented, about American intelligence agencies being law abiding. Europe, and much of the world, crumbled without resistance in the face of the tech juggernauts because of the PR fetishization of anything that came out of silicon valley.

The laxity of lawmakers and regulators was partly because of their unwillingness to be seen as standing in the way of "progress". A public drunk on the need to be in with the new, "disruptive" kids on the block who were "changing the world" would have teamed up with the disruptors to run rough shod over any oversight mechanisms proposed by regulators. Hence the silicon valley PR machine always prioritises the general public as the first targets of intellectual capture, because an intellectually captured public loath to give up the benefits and convenience of "progress and disruption" is a powerful weapon in the arsenal of tech giants in their global war against regulation. And the insidious nature of the damage of overreach by these tech giants isn't just limited to online interactions anymore, but the real world is also now experiencing disruption in the true sense of the word with gig economy companies reshaping the dynamics of entire markets and squeezing the most vulnerable members of society to the periphery of said markets, if not pushing them out entirely. In my own city of cape town south africa, a housing crisis is brewing as locals are being squeezed out of the housing market because landlords profit more from airbnb listings than making their properties available for long term rentals. Asset prices are being pushed up as "investors" compete to snap up available inventory to list on airbnb. And city officials seem more interested in celebrating cape town's status as "one of the top airbnb destinations" than actually protecting the interests of their own citizens. Intellectual capture, and the need to be "in with the cool disruptive kids" is infecting even public sector organizations with severe consequences for the public at large, but the public is blind to this as they've binged on the "disruption, changing the world" cool-aid

Bill Smith , May 19, 2017 at 4:15 pm

"PR fetishization of anything that came out of silicon valley"

It had nothing to do with individuals thinking this stuff had value? Cell phones -> iPhone (smartphone) for example.

Thuto , May 19, 2017 at 6:03 pm

While individuals might derive value from "this stuff", the tech companies providing the stuff use said value, allied with massive amounts of PR spin to render regulators impotent in providing safe guards to stop the techies from morphing from value providers into something akin to encroachers for profit/power/control (e.g. encroaching upon our right to privacy by selling off our data). Providing value to the public shouldn't be used as a cloak under which the dagger used to erode our rights is hidden

LT , May 19, 2017 at 1:50 pm

In the links today, there is a Guardian story on Tesla workers with the quote: "Everything feels like the future but us."

I'm reminded of another Guardian article about an ideology underpinning the grievances in Notes From An Emergency. It's imperative to understand the that the system we find ourselves in is a belief system – an ideology – and the choices to be made in regards to challenging it.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/11/accelerationism-how-a-fringe-philosophy-predicted-the-future-we-live-in/
An excerpt:
"Accelerationists argue that technology, particularly computer technology, and capitalism, particularly the most aggressive, global variety, should be massively sped up and intensified – either because this is the best way forward for humanity, or because there is no alternative. Accelerationists favour automation. They favour the further merging of the digital and the human. They often favour the deregulation of business, and drastically scaled-back government. They believe that people should stop deluding themselves that economic and technological progress can be controlled. They often believe that social and political upheaval has a value in itself.

Accelerationism, therefore, goes against conservatism, traditional socialism, social democracy, environmentalism, protectionism, populism, nationalism, localism and all the other ideologies that have sought to moderate or reverse the already hugely disruptive, seemingly runaway pace of change in the modern world "

Be sure to catch such quotes as this:
"We all live in an operating system set up by the accelerating triad of war, capitalism and emergent AI," says Steve Goodman, a British accelerationist

That should remind one of this:
"Musk is persuaded that we're living in a simulation, and he or a fellow true believer has hired programmers to try to hack it ."

Oregoncharles , May 19, 2017 at 1:58 pm

"Boycotts won't work, since opting out of a site like Google means opting out of much of modern life."

I wish he wouldn't keep dropping into openly delusional statements like that. Granted, i use Google News, but there are alternatives.

jrs , May 19, 2017 at 6:11 pm

Yes I know, it's ridiculous. And we use them to "protect" us he claims. But about the only place where "protect" makes any sense in his whole argument is actually Amazon. It is pretty safe to buy from Amazon (or using Amazon-pay) if you fear a credit card being hacked from on online purchase. That much has some truth.

But how does using Facebook protect anyone? How does Google protect anyone? Ok Android security is a different debate, but I really don't understand how issues of "security" etc. applies to using a Google search as opposed to any other.

LT , May 19, 2017 at 2:12 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/11/accelerationism-how-a-fringe-philosophy-predicted-the-future-we-live-in

A long read, but gives some background on the "disruptors" a rebrand of "accelerationism."

(I thought I had accidently removed the link in the previous post)

begob , May 19, 2017 at 2:15 pm

The right wing in Britain seems to have come up with an authoritarian solution: "Theresa May is planning to introduce huge regulations on the way the internet works, allowing the government to decide what is said online."

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/theresa-may-internet-conservatives-government-a7744176.html

David, by the lake , May 19, 2017 at 2:52 pm

Lost me right at the opening by bringing up the popular vote and the bemoaning of a "broken" system. We are a federal republic of states and I'd prefer to keep it that way. Ensuring that the executive has the support of the populations of some minimal number of states is a good thing in my view.

craazyman , May 19, 2017 at 7:39 pm

so much to read. so little time.

that's when I bailed too. What drek. If a reader has half a mind, they slip and fall on a greasy doo doo in the first 15 seconds? No way can I stand to wade through the rest of what seems like a tortured screed (although I did speed read it). Turns out, I may agree in a minor way with some points, but I'll never know. I have time to waste in the real world, and I can't waste it if I'm reading somebody's internet screed about Donald Trump. God Good almighty. Enough.

Authors watch your words. They matter! LOL. And always remember - sometimes less is more. Not NC's finest post evah. And post author's shouldn't refer to people's heads on pikes in their hotel room as being something they wouldn't object to. I mean really. That's not even junior high school humor. I give this post a 2.3 on a scale of 1-10. 1 is unbearable. 3 is readable. 10 is genius.

PKMKII , May 19, 2017 at 3:12 pm

The people who run Silicon Valley identify with progressive values

Nope. There are some true progressives in the industry, yes, but they're few and far between. Understanding the dominant mindset in Silicon Valley is vital to understanding why there hasn't been pushback on all this. Sure, they like their neoliberal IdPol as it appeals to their meritocracy worship (hence the protests against the travel ban), but not with any intersectionality, especially with regards to women (the red pill/MRA mind virus infects a lot of brains in SV). Socio-economics, though, it's heavy on the libertarianism, albeit with some support for utopian government concepts like UBI, plus a futurist outlook out of that Rationality cult; Yudkowsky and his LessWrong nonsense have influence over a lot of players, big and small, in the bay area. So what you get is a bunch of people deluded into thinking they're hyperlogical while giving themselves a free pass on the begged question of where their "first principles" emerged out of. It's not just their sci-fi bubble that needs a poppin', it's their Rothbardian/Randite one as well.

Sue , May 19, 2017 at 3:27 pm

+1,000
"The people who run Silicon Valley identify with progressive values"
True! I've seen some smoking weed while talking machine language and screwing half of humanity

Michael Fiorillo , May 19, 2017 at 5:49 pm

Better still, they micro-dose on psychedelics while coding our binary chains: how cool is that!

TheCatSaid , May 19, 2017 at 3:38 pm

The points you raise are accurate. And even long before those things existed, Silicon Valley arose as conscious, deliberate high-level government strategy (or beyond-government deep state).

The sources of new technology and funding have been deliberately obscured, at least as far as the general public debate goes. It has nothing to do with "innovation" and "entrepreneurship". It is amazing to see all countries around the world hop onto the innovation, let's-imitate-Silicon-Valley bandwagon, with no awareness that SV was no accident of a few smart/lucky individual entrepreneurs.

jfleni , May 19, 2017 at 4:12 pm

NOBODY has to join buttBook, review slimy effing GIGGLE, and especially use MICROSWIFT; ALTERNATIVES are easy and often more effective and especially annoying to the rich slime.

When Balmer was Billy-Boy's Ceo he actually preached that Linux was a nefarious plot to deprive clowns like him of their well deserved "emoluments". Fortuneately, all he has to do now is sell beer and hot dogs, and make sure the cheerleaders keep their clothing on. Good job for him.

Decide NOT to be a lemming; instead be a BOLSHIE and hit 'em hard. YOU and the whole internet will benefit.

ginnie nyc , May 19, 2017 at 5:36 pm

I think some of the naivete of this talk is based on a superficial knowledge of American history. Things like his remark about the Women's DC March – "America is not used to large demonstrations " Oh really.

The writer, though intelligent, is apparently unaware of massive demos during the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights movement, the anti-Iraq war marches, the Bonus March etc etc. Perhaps his ignorance is a function of age, and perhaps the fact he was not born here, vis a vis his name.

different clue , May 19, 2017 at 7:27 pm

I will reply to an almost tangential little something which Maciej Ceglowski wrote near the beginning of his piece.

" 65.8 million for Clinton
63.0 million for Trump

This was the second time in sixteen years that the candidate with fewer votes won the American Presidency. There is a bug in the operating system of our democracy, one of the many ways that slavery still casts its shadow over American politics."

Really? A bug in the operating system of our democracy? That sounds like something a Clintonite would say. It sounds like something that many millions of Clintonites DID say, over and over and over again.

Clinton got more popular votes? She got almost all of them in California. So Mr. Ceglowski thinks Clinton should be President based on that? That means Mr. Ceglowski wants the entire rest of America to be California's colonial possession, ruled by a President that California picked. And don't think we Midwestern Deplorables don't understand exACTly how Ceglowski thinks and what Ceglowski thinks of us out here in Deploristan.

Some Clinton supporters are smarter than that. Some were not surprised. Michael Moore was not surprised. He predicted that we Deploristani Midwesterners would make Trump President whether the digitally beautiful people liked it or not. Did Mr. Ceglowski support Clinton? Did the "tech workers in short-lived revolt" support Clinton? And did they support NAFTA back in the day? You thought you would cram Trade Treason Clinton down our throat? Well, we flung Trade Patriot Trump right back in your face.

[May 16, 2017] Mark Ames: The FBI Has No Legal Charter But Lots of Kompromat

Notable quotes:
"... Today, it seems, the best description of the FBI's main activity is corporate enforcer for the white-collar mafia known as Wall Street. There is an analogy to organized crime, where the most powerful mobsters settled disputes between other gangs of criminals. Similarly, if a criminal gang is robbed by one of its own members, the mafia would go after the guilty party; the FBI plays this role for Wall Street institutions targeted by con artists and fraudsters. Compare and contrast a pharmaceutical company making opiates which is targeted by thieves vs. a black market drug cartel targeted by thieves. In one case, the FBI investigates; in the other, a violent vendetta ensues (such as street murders in Mexico). ..."
"... The FBI executives are rewarded for this service with lucrative post-retirement careers within corporate America – Louis Freeh went to credit card fraudster, MBNA, Richard Mueller to a corporate Washington law firm, WilmerHale, and Comey, before Obama picked him as Director, worked for Lockheed Martin and HSBC (cleaning up after their $2 billion drug cartel marketing scandal) after leaving the FBI in 2005. ..."
"... Some say they have a key role to play in national security and terrorism – but their record on the 2001 anthrax attacks is incredibly shady and suspicious. The final suspect, Bruce Ivins, is clearly innocent of the crime, just as their previous suspect, Steven Hatfill was. Ivins, if still alive, could have won a similar multi-million dollar defamation lawsuit against the FBI. All honest bioweapons experts know this to be true – the perpetrators of those anthrax letters are still at large, and may very well have had close associations with the Bush Administration itself. ..."
"... Comey's actions over the past year are certainly highly questionable, as well. Neglecting to investigate the Clinton Foundation ties to Saudi Arabia and other foreign governments and corporations, particularly things like State Department approval of various arms deals in which bribes may have been paid, is as much a dereliction of duty as neglecting to investigate Trump ties to Russian business interests – but then, Trump has a record of shady business dealings dating back to the 1970s, of strange bankruptcies and bailouts and government sales that the FBI never looked at either. ..."
May 16, 2017 | www.nakedcapitalism.com

By Mark Ames, founding editor of the Moscow satirical paper The eXile and co-host of the Radio War Nerd podcast with Gary Brecher (aka John Dolan). Subscribe here . Originally published at The Exiled

I made the mistake of listening to NPR last week to find out what Conventional Wisdom had to say about Trump firing Comey, on the assumption that their standardized Mister-Rogers-on-Nyquil voice tones would rein in the hysteria pitch a little. And on the surface, it did-the NPR host and guests weren't directly shrieking "the world is ending! We're all gonna die SHEEPLE!" the way they were on CNN. But in a sense they were screaming "fire!", if you know how to distinguish the very minute pitch level differences in the standard NPR Nyquil voice.

The host of the daytime NPR program asked his guests how serious, and how "unprecedented" Trump's decision to fire his FBI chief was. The guests answers were strange: they spoke about "rule of law" and "violating the Constitution" but then switched to Trump "violating norms"-and back again, interchanging "norms" and "laws" as if they're synonyms. One of the guests admitted that Trump firing Comey was 100% legal, but that didn't seem to matter in this talk about Trump having abandoned rule-of-law for a Putinist dictatorship. These guys wouldn't pass a high school civics class, but there they were, garbling it all up. What mattered was the proper sense of panic and outrage-I'm not sure anyone really cared about the actual legality of the thing, or the legal, political or "normative" history of the FBI.

For starters, the FBI hardly belongs in the same set with concepts like "constitutional" or " rule of law." That's because the FBI was never established by a law. US Lawmakers refused to approve an FBI bureau over a century ago when it was first proposed by Teddy Roosevelt. So he ignored Congress, and went ahead and set it up by presidential fiat. That's one thing the civil liberties crowd hates discussing - how centralized US political power is in the executive branch, a feature in the constitutional system put there by the holy Founders.

In the late 1970s, at the tail end of our brief Glasnost, there was a lot of talk in Washington about finally creating a legal charter for the FBI -70 years after its founding. A lot of serious ink was spilled trying to transform the FBI from an extralegal secret police agency to something legal and defined. If you want to play archeologist to America's recent history, you can find this in the New York Times' archives, articles with headlines like "Draft of Charter for F.B.I. Limits Inquiry Methods" :

The Carter Administration will soon send to Congress the first governing charter for the Federal Bureau of Investigation. The proposed charter imposes extensive but not absolute restrictions on the bureau's employment of controversial investigative techniques, .including the use of informers, undercover agents and covert criminal activity.

The charter also specifies the duties and powers of the bureau, setting precise standards and procedures for the initiation ,and conduct of investigations. It specifically requires the F.B.I. to observe constitutional rights and establishes safeguards against unchecked harassment, break‐ins and other abuses.

followed by the inevitable lament, like this editorial from the Christian Science Monitor a year later, "Don't Forget the FBI Charter". Which of course we did forget-that was Reagan's purpose and value for the post-Glasnost reaction: forgetting. As historian Athan Theoharis wrote , "After 1981, Congress never seriously considered again any of the FBI charter proposals."

The origins of the FBI have been obscured both because of its dubious legality and because of its original political purpose-to help the president battle the all-powerful American capitalists. It wasn't that Teddy Roosevelt was a radical leftist-he was a Progressive Republican, which sounds like an oxymoron today but which was mainstream and ascendant politics in his time. Roosevelt was probably the first president since Andrew Jackson to try to smash concentrated wealth-power, or at least some of it. He could be brutally anti-labor, but so were the powerful capitalists he fought, and all the structures of government power. He met little opposition pursuing his imperial Social Darwinist ambitions outside America's borders-but he had a much harder time fighting the powerful capitalists at home against Roosevelt's most honorable political obsession: preserving forests, parks and public lands from greedy capitalists. An early FBI memo to Hoover about the FBI's origins explains,

"Roosevelt, in his characteristic dynamic fashion, asserted that the plunderers of the public domain would be prosecuted and brought to justice."

According to New York Times reporter Tim Wiener's Enemies: A History of the FBI , it was the Oregon land fraud scandal of 1905-6 that put the idea of an FBI in TR's hyperactive mind. The scandal involved leading Oregon politicians helping railroad tycoon Edward Harriman illegally sell off pristine Oregon forest lands to timber interests, and it ended with an Oregon senator and the state's only two House representatives criminally charged and put on trial-along with dozens of other Oregonians. Basically, they were raping the state's public lands and forests like colonists stripping a foreign country-and that stuck in TR's craw.

TR wanted his attorney general-Charles Bonaparte (yes, he really was a descendant of that Bonaparte)-to make a full report to on the rampant land fraud scams that the robber barons were running to despoil the American West, and which threatened TR's vision of land and forest conservation and parks. Bonaparte created an investigative team from the US Secret Service, but TR thought their report was a "whitewash" and proposed a new separate federal investigative service within Bonaparte's Department of Justice that would report only to the Attorney General.

Until then, the US government had to rely on private contractors like the notorious, dreaded Pinkerton Agency, who were great at strikebreaking, clubbing workers and shooting organizers, but not so good at taking down down robber barons, who happened to also be important clients for the private detective agencies.

In early 1908, Attorney General Bonaparte wrote to Congress asking for the legal authority (and budget funds) to create a "permanent detective force" under the DOJ. Congress rebelled, denouncing it as a plan to create an American okhrana . Democrat Joseph Sherley wrote that "spying on men and prying into what would ordinarily be considered their private affairs" went against "American ideas of government"; Rep. George Waldo, a New York Republican, said the proposed FBI was a "great blow to freedom and to free institutions if there should arise in this country any such great central secret-service bureau as there is in Russia."

So Congress's response was the opposite, banning Bonaparte's DOJ from spending any funds at all on a proposed FBI. Another Congressman wrote another provision into the budget bill banning the DOJ from hiring Secret Service employees for any sort of FBI type agency. So Bonaparte waited until Congress took its summer recess, set aside some DOJ funds, recruited some Secret Service agents, and created a new federal detective bureau with 34 agents. This was how the FBI was born. Congress wasn't notified until the end of 1908, in a few lines in a standard report - "oh yeah, forgot to tell you-the executive branch went ahead and created an American okhrana because, well, the ol' joke about dogs licking their balls. Happy New Year!"

The sordid history of America's extralegal secret police-initially named the Bureau of Investigation, changed to the FBI ("Federal") in the 30's, is mostly a history of xenophobic panic-mongering, illegal domestic spying, mass roundups and plans for mass-roundups, false entrapment schemes, and planting what Russians call "kompromat"- compromising information about a target's sex life-to blackmail or destroy American political figures that the FBI didn't like.

The first political victim of J Edgar Hoover's kompromat was Louis Post, the assistant secretary of labor under Woodrow Wilson. Post's crime was releasing over 1,000 alleged Reds from detention facilities near the end of the FBI's Red Scare crackdown, when they jailed and deported untold thousands on suspicion of being Communists. The FBI's mass purge began with popular media support in 1919, but by the middle of 1920, some (not the FBI) were starting to get a little queasy. A legal challenge to the FBI's mass purges and exiles in Boston ended with a federal judge denouncing the FBI. After that ruling, assistant secretary Louis Post, a 71-year-old well-meaning progressive, reviewed the cases against the last 1500 detainees that the FBI wanted to deport, and found that there was absolutely nothing on at least 75 percent of the cases. Post's review threatened to undo thousands more FBI persecutions of alleged Moscow-controlled radicals.

So one of the FBI's most ambitious young agents, J Edgar Hoover, collected kompromat on Post and his alleged associations with other alleged Moscow-controlled leftists, and gave the file to the Republican-controlled House of Representatives-which promptly announced it would hold hearings to investigate Post as a left subversive. The House tried to impeach Post, but ultimately he defended himself. Post's lawyer compared his political persecutors to the okhrana (Russia, again!): "We in America have sunk to the level of the government of Russia under the Czarist regime," describing the FBI's smear campaign as "even lower in some of their methods than the old Russian officials."

Under Harding, the FBI had a new chief, William Burns, who made headlines blaming the terror bombing attack on Wall Street of 1920 that killed 34 people on a Kremlin-run conspiracy. The FBI claimed it had a highly reliable inside source who told them that Lenin sent $30,000 to the Soviets' diplomatic mission in New York, which was distributed to four local Communist agents who arranged the Wall Street bombing. The source claimed to have personally spoken with Lenin, who boasted that the bombing was so successful he'd ordered up more.

The only problem was that the FBI's reliable source, a Jewish-Polish petty criminal named Wolf Lindenfeld, turned out to be a bullshitter-nicknamed "Windy Linde"-who thought his fake confession about Lenin funding the bombing campaign would get him out of Poland's jails and set up in a comfortable new life in New York.

By 1923, the FBI had thoroughly destroyed America's communist and radical labor movements-allowing it to focus on its other favorite pastime: spying on and destroying political opponents. The FBI spied on US Senators who supported opening diplomatic relations with the Soviet Union: Idaho's William Borah, chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee; Thomas Walsh of the Judiciary Committee, and Burton K Wheeler, the prairie Populist senator from Montana, who visited the Soviet Union and pushed for diplomatic relations. Harding's corrupt Attorney General Dougherty denounced Sen. Wheeler as "the Communist leader in the Senate" and "no more a Democrat than Stalin, his comrade in Moscow." Dougherty accused Sen. Wheeler of being part of a conspiracy "to capture, by deceit and design, as many members of the Senate as possible and to spread through Washington and the cloakrooms of Congress a poison gas as deadly as that which sapped and destroyed brave soldiers in the last war."

Hoover, now a top FBI official, quietly fed kompromat to journalists he cultivated, particularly an AP reporter named Richard Whitney, who published a popular book in 1924, "Reds In America" alleging Kremlin agents "had an all-pervasive influence over American institutions; they had infiltrated every corner of American life." Whitney named Charlie Chaplin as a Kremlin agent, along with Felix Frankfurter and members of the Senate pushing for recognition of the Soviet Union. That killed any hope for diplomatic recognition for the next decade.

Then the first Harding scandals broke-Teapot Dome, Veterans Affairs, bribery at the highest rungs. When Senators Wheeler and Walsh opened bribery investigations, the FBI sent agents to the senators' home state to drum up false bribery charges against Sen. Wheeler. The charges were clearly fake, and a jury dismissed the charges. But Attorney General Dougherty was indicted for fraud and forced to resign, as was his FBI chief Burns-but not Burns' underling Hoover, who stayed in the shadows.

"We want no Gestapo or Secret Police. FBI is tending in that direction. They are dabbling in sex-life scandals and plain blackmail This must stop."

With the Cold War, the FBI became obsessed with homosexuals as America's Fifth Column under Moscow's control. Homosexuals, the FBI believed, were susceptible to Kremlin kompromat-so the FBI collected and disseminated its own kompromat on alleged American homosexuals, supposedly to protect America from the Kremlin. In the early 1950s, Hoover launched the Sex Deviates Program to spy on American homosexuals and purge them from public life. The FBI built up 300,000 pages of files on suspected homosexuals and contacted their employers, local law enforcement and universities to "to drive homosexuals from every institution of government, higher learning, and law enforcement in the nation," according to Tim Weiner's book Enemies. No one but the FBI knows exactly how many Americans' lives and careers were destroyed by the FBI's Sex Deviants Program but Hoover-who never married, lived with his mother until he was 40, and traveled everywhere with his "friend" Clyde Tolson .

In the 1952 election, Hoover was so committed to helping the Republicans and Eisenhower win that he compiled and disseminated a 19-page kompromat file alleging that his Democratic Party rival Adlai Stevenson was gay. The FBI's file on Stevenson was kept in the Sex Deviants Program section-it included libelous gossip, claiming that Stevenson was one of Illinois' "best known homosexuals" who went by the name "Adeline" in gay cruising circles.

In the 1960s, Hoover and his FBI chiefs collected kompromat on the sex lives of JFK and Martin Luther King. Hoover presented some of his kompromat on JFK to Bobby Kennedy, in a concern-trollish way claiming to "warn" him that the president was opening himself up to blackmail. It was really a way for Hoover to let the despised Kennedy brothers know he could destroy them, should they try to Comey him out of his FBI office. Hoover's kompromat on MLK's sex life was a particular obsession of his-he now believed that African-Americans, not homosexuals, posed the greatest threat to become a Kremlin Fifth Column. The FBI wiretapped MLK's private life, collecting tapes of his affairs with other women, which a top FBI official then mailed to Martin Luther King's wife, along with a note urging King to commit suicide.

FBI letter anonymously mailed to Martin Luther King Jr's wife, along with kompromat sex tapes

After JFK was murdered, when Bobby Kennedy ran for the Senate in 1964, he recounted another disturbing FBI/kompromat story that President Johnson shared with him on the campaign trail. LBJ told Bobby about a stack of kompromat files - FBI reports "detailing the sexual debauchery of members of the Senate and House who consorted with prostitutes." LBJ asked RFK if the kompromat should be leaked selectively to destroy Republicans before the 1964 elections. Kennedy recalled,

"He told me he had spent all night sitting up and reading the files of the FBI on all these people. And Lyndon talks about that information and material so freely. Lyndon talks about everybody, you see, with everybody. And of course that's dangerous."

Kennedy had seen some of the same FBI kompromat files as attorney general, but he was totally opposed to releasing such unsubstantiated kompromat-such as, say, the Trump piss files-because doing so would "destroy the confidence that people in the United States had in their government and really make us a laughingstock around the world."

Imagine that.

Which brings me to the big analogy every hack threw around last week, calling Trump firing Comey "Nixonian." Actually, what Trump did was more like the very opposite of Nixon, who badly wanted to fire Hoover in 1971-2, but was too afraid of the kompromat Hoover might've had on him to make the move. Nixon fell out with his old friend and onetime mentor J Edgar Hoover in 1971, when the ailing old FBI chief refused to get sucked in to the Daniel Ellsberg/Pentagon Papers investigation, especially after the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the New York Times. Part of the reason Nixon created his Plumbers team of black bag burglars was because Hoover had become a bit skittish in his last year on this planet-and that drove Nixon crazy.

Nixon called his chief of staff Haldeman:

Nixon: I talked to Hoover last night and Hoover is not going after this case [Ellsberg] as strong as I would like. There's something dragging him.

Haldeman: You don't have the feeling the FBI is really pursuing this?

Nixon: Yeah, particularly the conspiracy side. I want to go after everyone. I'm not so interested in Ellsberg, but we have to go after everybody who's a member of this conspiracy.

Hoover's ambitious deputies in the FBI were smelling blood, angling to replace him. His number 3, Bill Sullivan (who sent MLK the sex tapes and suicide note) was especially keen to get rid of Hoover and take his place. So as J Edgar was stonewalling the Daniel Ellsberg investigation, Sullivan showed up in a Department of Justice office with two suitcases packed full of transcripts and summaries of illegal wiretaps that Kissinger and Nixon had ordered on their own staff and on American journalists. The taps were ordered in Nixon's first months in the White House in 1969, to plug up the barrage of leaks, the likes of which no one had ever seen before. Sullivan took the leaks from J Edgar's possession and told the DOJ official that they needed to be hidden from Hoover, who planned to use them as kompromat to blackmail Nixon.

Nixon decided he was going to fire J Edgar the next day. This was in September, 1971. But the next day came, and Nixon got scared. So he tried to convince his attorney general John Mitchell to fire Hoover for him, but Mitchell said only the President could fire J Edgar Hoover. So Nixon met him for breakfast, and, well, he just didn't have the guts. Over breakfast, Hoover flattered Nixon and told him there was nothing more in the world he wanted than to see Nixon re-elected. Nixon caved; the next day, J Edgar Hoover unceremoniously fired his number 3 Bill Sullivan, locking him out of the building and out of his office so that he couldn't take anything with him. Sullivan was done.

The lesson here, I suppose, is that if an FBI director doesn't want to be fired, it's best to keep your kompromat a little closer to your chest, as a gun to hold to your boss's head. Comey's crew already released the piss tapes kompromat on Trump-the damage was done. What was left to hold back Trump from firing Comey? "Laws"? The FBI isn't even legal. "Norms" would be the real reason. Which pretty much sums up everything Trump has been doing so far. We've learned the past two decades that we're hardly a nation of laws, at least not when it comes to the plutocratic ruling class. What does bind them are "norms"-and while those norms may mean everything to the ruling class, it's an open question how much these norms mean to a lot of Americans outside that club.

Huey Long , May 16, 2017 at 2:33 am

Wow, and this whole time I thought the NSA had a kompromat monopoly as they have everybody's porn site search terms and viewing habits on file.

I had no idea the FBI practically invented it!

3.14e-9 , May 16, 2017 at 3:04 am

The Native tribes don't have a great history with the FBI, either.

https://indiancountrymedianetwork.com/culture/thing-about-skins/comey-fbi-destructive-history-native-people/

voteforno6 , May 16, 2017 at 6:06 am

Has anyone ever used the FBI's lack of a charter as a defense in court?

Disturbed Voter , May 16, 2017 at 6:42 am

The USA doesn't have a legal basis either, it is a revolting crown colony of the British Empire. Treason and heresy all the way down. Maybe the British need to burn Washington DC again?

Synoia , May 16, 2017 at 9:46 pm

Britain burning DC, and the so call ed "war" of 1812, got no mention in my History Books. Napoleon on the other hand, featured greatly

In 1812 Napoleon was busy going to Russia. That went well.

Ignim Brites , May 16, 2017 at 7:55 am

Wondered how Comey thought he could get away with his conviction and pardon of Sec Clinton. Seems like part of the culture of FBI is a "above and beyond" the law mentality.

Watt4Bob , May 16, 2017 at 7:56 am

Back in the early 1970s a high school friend moved to Alabama because his father was transferred by his employer.

My friend sent a post card describing among other things the fact that Alabama had done away with the requirement of a math class to graduate high school, and substituted a required class called "The Evils of Communism" complete with a text-book written by J. Edgar Hoover; Masters of Deceit.

JMarco , May 16, 2017 at 2:52 pm

In Dallas,Texas my 1959 Civics class had to read the same book. We all were given paperback copies of it to take home and read. It was required reading enacted by Texas legislature.

Watt4Bob , May 16, 2017 at 4:47 pm

So I'd guess you weren't fooled by any of those commie plots of the sixties, like the campaigns for civil rights or against the Vietnamese war.

I can't really brag, I didn't stop worrying about the Red Menace until 1970 or so, that's when I started running into returning vets who mostly had no patience for that stuff.

Carolinian , May 16, 2017 at 8:35 am

We've learned the past two decades that we're hardly a nation of laws, at least not when it comes to the plutocratic ruling class. What does bind them are "norms"

Or as David Broder put it (re Bill Clinton): he came in and trashed the place and it wasn't his place.

It was David Broder's place. Of course the media play a key role with all that kompromat since they are the ones needed to convey it to the public. The tragedy is that even many of the sensible in their ranks such as Bill Moyers have been sucked into the kompromat due to their hysteria over Trump. Ames is surely on point in this great article. The mistake was allowing secret police agencies like the FBI and CIA to be created in the first place.

Katharine , May 16, 2017 at 8:37 am

Sorry, my initial reaction was that people who don't know the difference between "rein" and "reign" are not to be trusted to provide reliable information. Recognizing that as petty, I kept reading, and presently found the statement that Congress was not informed of the founding of the FBI until a century after the fact, which seems implausible. If in fact the author meant the end of 1908 it was quite an achievement to write 2008.

Interesting to the extent it may be true, but with few sources, no footnotes, and little evidence of critical editing who knows what that may be?

Carolinian , May 16, 2017 at 9:12 am

Do you even know who Mark Ames is?

Petty .yes.

Katharine , May 16, 2017 at 10:08 am

Who he is is irrelevant. I don't take things on faith because "the Pope said" or because Mark Ames said. People who expect their information to be taken seriously should substantiate it.

Bill Smith , May 16, 2017 at 12:00 pm

Yeah, in the first sentence

Interesting article though.

Fiery Hunt , May 16, 2017 at 9:21 am

Yeah, Kathatine, you're right .very petty.

And completely missed the point.

Or worse, you got the point and your best rejection of that point was pointing out a typo.

Katharine , May 16, 2017 at 10:13 am

I neither missed the point nor rejected it. I reserved judgment, as I thought was apparent from my comment.

sid_finster , May 16, 2017 at 10:50 am

But Trump is bad. Very Bad.

So anything the FBI does to get rid of him must by definition be ok! Besides, surely our civic-minded IC would never use their power on the Good Guys™!

Right?

JTMcPhee , May 16, 2017 at 9:21 am

Ah yes, the voice of "caution." And such attention to the lack of footnotes, in this day when the curious can so easily cut and paste a bit of salient text into a search engine and pull up a feast of parse-able writings and video, from which they can "judiciously assess" claims and statements. If they care to spend the time, which is in such short supply among those who are struggling to keep up with the horrors and revelations people of good will confront every blinking day

Classic impeachment indeed. All from the height of "academic rigor" and "caution." Especially the "apologetic" bit about "reign" vs "rein." Typos destroy credibility, don't they? And the coup de grass (sic), the unrebuttable "plausibility" claim.

One wonders at the nature of the author's curriculum vitae. One also marvels at the yawning gulf between the Very Serious Stuff I was taught in grade and high school civics and history, back in the late '50s and the '60s, about the Fundamental Nature Of Our Great Nation and its founding fathers and the Beautiful Documents they wrote, on the one hand, and what we mopes learn, through a drip-drip-drip process punctuated occasionally by Major Revelations, about the real nature of the Empire and our fellow creatures

PS: My earliest memory of television viewing was a day at a friend's house - his middle-class parents had the first "set" in the neighborhood, I think an RCA, in a massive sideboard cabinet where the picture tube pointed up and you viewed the "content" in a mirror mounted to the underside of the lid. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5onSwx7_Cn0 The family was watching a hearing of Joe McCarthy's kangaroo court, complete with announcements of the latest number in the "list of known Communists in the State Department" and how Commyanism was spreading like an unstoppable epidemic mortal disease through the Great US Body Politic and its Heroic Institutions of Democracy. I was maybe 6 years old, but that grainy black and white "reality TV" content had me asking "WTF?" at a very early age. And I'd say it's on the commentor to show that the "2008" claim is wrong, by something other than "implausible" as drive-by impeachment. Given the content of the original post, and what people paying attention to all this stuff have a pretty good idea is the general contours of a vast corruption and manipulation.

"Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no."

Katharine , May 16, 2017 at 10:19 am

It is the author's job to substantiate information, not the reader's. If he thinks his work is so important, why does he not make a better job of it?

Edward , May 16, 2017 at 9:22 pm

I think the MLK blackmail scheme is well-established. Much of the article seems to be based on Tim Wiener's "Enemies: A History of the FBI".

nonsense factory , May 16, 2017 at 11:16 am

Interesting article on the history of the FBI, although the post-Hoover era doesn't get any treatment. The Church Committee hearings on the CIA and FBI, after the exposure of notably Operation CHAOS (early 60s to early 70s) by the CIA and COINTELPRO(late 1950s to early 1970s) by the FBI, didn't really get to the bottom of the issue although some reforms were initiated.

Today, it seems, the best description of the FBI's main activity is corporate enforcer for the white-collar mafia known as Wall Street. There is an analogy to organized crime, where the most powerful mobsters settled disputes between other gangs of criminals. Similarly, if a criminal gang is robbed by one of its own members, the mafia would go after the guilty party; the FBI plays this role for Wall Street institutions targeted by con artists and fraudsters. Compare and contrast a pharmaceutical company making opiates which is targeted by thieves vs. a black market drug cartel targeted by thieves. In one case, the FBI investigates; in the other, a violent vendetta ensues (such as street murders in Mexico).

The FBI executives are rewarded for this service with lucrative post-retirement careers within corporate America – Louis Freeh went to credit card fraudster, MBNA, Richard Mueller to a corporate Washington law firm, WilmerHale, and Comey, before Obama picked him as Director, worked for Lockheed Martin and HSBC (cleaning up after their $2 billion drug cartel marketing scandal) after leaving the FBI in 2005.

Maybe this is legitimate, but this only applies to their protection of the interests of large corporations – as the 2008 economic collapse and aftermath showed, they don't prosecute corporate executives who rip off poor people and middle-class homeowners. Banks who rob people, they aren't investigated or prosecuted; that's just for people who rob banks.

When it comes to political issues and national security, however, the FBI has such a terrible record on so many issues over the years that anything they claim has to be taken with a grain or two of salt. Consider domestic political activity: from the McCarthyite 'Red Scare' of the 1950s to COINTELPRO in the 1960s and 1970s to targeting of environmental groups in the 1980s and 1990s to targeting anti-war protesters under GW Bush to their obsession with domestic mass surveillance under Obama, it's not a record that should inspire any confidence.

Some say they have a key role to play in national security and terrorism – but their record on the 2001 anthrax attacks is incredibly shady and suspicious. The final suspect, Bruce Ivins, is clearly innocent of the crime, just as their previous suspect, Steven Hatfill was. Ivins, if still alive, could have won a similar multi-million dollar defamation lawsuit against the FBI. All honest bioweapons experts know this to be true – the perpetrators of those anthrax letters are still at large, and may very well have had close associations with the Bush Administration itself.

As far as terrorist activities? Many of their low-level agents did seem concerned about the Saudis and bin Laden in the late 1990s and pre-9/11 – but Saudi investigations were considered politically problematic due to "geostrategic relationships with our Saudi allies" – hence people like John O'Neil and Coleen Rowley were sidelined and ignored, with disastrous consequences. The Saudi intelligence agency role in 9/11 was buried for over a decade, as well. Since 9/11, most of the FBI investigations seem to have involved recruiting mentally disabled young Islamic men in sting operations in which the FBI provides everything needed. You could probably get any number of mentally ill homeless people across the U.S., regardless of race or religion, to play this role.

Comey's actions over the past year are certainly highly questionable, as well. Neglecting to investigate the Clinton Foundation ties to Saudi Arabia and other foreign governments and corporations, particularly things like State Department approval of various arms deals in which bribes may have been paid, is as much a dereliction of duty as neglecting to investigate Trump ties to Russian business interests – but then, Trump has a record of shady business dealings dating back to the 1970s, of strange bankruptcies and bailouts and government sales that the FBI never looked at either.

Ultimately, this is because FBI executives are paid off not to investigate Wall Street criminality, nor shady U.S. government activity, with lucrative positions as corporate board members and so on after their 'retirements'. I don't doubt that many of their junior members mean well and are dedicated to their jobs – but the fish rots from the head down.

Andrew Watts , May 16, 2017 at 3:58 pm

As far as terrorist activities? Many of their low-level agents did seem concerned about the Saudis and bin Laden in the late 1990s and pre-9/11 – but Saudi investigations were considered politically problematic due to "geostrategic relationships with our Saudi allies" – hence people like John O'Neil and Coleen Rowley were sidelined and ignored, with disastrous consequences.

The Clinton Administration had other priorities. You know, I think I'll let ex-FBI Director Freeh explain what happened when the FBI tried to get the Saudis to cooperate with their investigation into the bombing of the Khobar Towers.

"That September, Crown Prince Abdullah and his entourage took over the entire 143-room Hay-Adams Hotel, just across from Lafayette Park from the White House, for six days. The visit, I figured, was pretty much our last chance. Again, we prepared talking points for the president. Again, I contacted Prince Bandar and asked him to soften up the crown prince for the moment when Clinton, -- or Al Gore I didn't care who -- would raise the matter and start to exert the necessary pressure."

"The story that came back to me, from "usually reliable sources," as they say in Washington, was that Bill Clinton briefly raised the subject only to tell the Crown Prince that he certainly understood the Saudis; reluctance to cooperate. Then, according to my sources, he hit Abdullah up for a contribution to the still-to-be-built Clinton presidential library. Gore, who was supposed to press hardest of all in his meeting with the crown Prince, barely mentioned the matter, I was told." -Louis J. Freeh, My FBI (2005)

In my defense I picked the book up to see if there was any dirt on the DNC's electoral funding scandal in 1996. I'm actually glad I did. The best part of the book is when Freeh recounts running into a veteran of the Lincoln Brigade and listens to how Hoover's FBI ruined his life despite having broken no laws. As if a little thing like laws mattered to Hoover. The commies were after our precious bodily fluids!

verifyfirst , May 16, 2017 at 12:53 pm

I'm not sure there are many functioning norms left within the national political leadership. Seemed to me Gingrich started blowing those up and it just got worse from there. McConnell not allowing Garland to be considered comes to mind

lyman alpha blob , May 16, 2017 at 1:14 pm

Great article – thanks for this. I had no idea the FBI never had a legal charter – very enlightening.

JMarco , May 16, 2017 at 2:59 pm

Thanks to Mark Ames now we know what Pres. Trump meant when he tweeted about his tapes with AG Comey. Not some taped conversation between Pres. Trump & AG Comey but bunch of kompromat tapes that AG Comey has provided Pres. Trump that might not make departing AG Comey looked so clean.

[May 16, 2017] The Real Meaning of Sensitive Intelligence by Philip Giraldi

Notable quotes:
"... what astonished me was how quickly the media interpreted its use in the hearings to mean that the conversations and emails that apparently were recorded or intercepted involving Trump associates and assorted Russians as "sensitive contacts" meant that they were necessarily inappropriate, dangerous, or even illegal. ..."
"... The Post is unfortunately also providing ISIS with more information than it "needs to know" to make its story more dramatic, further compromising the source. ..."
"... McMaster described the report as "false" and informed the Post that "The president and the foreign minister reviewed common threats from terrorist organizations to include threats to aviation. At no time were any intelligence sources or methods discussed and no military operations were disclosed that were not already known publicly." Tillerson commented that "the nature of specific threats were (sic) discussed, but they did not discuss sources, methods, or military operations." ..."
"... The media will no doubt be seeking to magnify the potential damage done while the White House goes into damage control mode. ..."
"... In this case, the intelligence shared with Lavrov appears to be related to specific ISIS threats, which may include planned operations against civilian aircraft, judging from Trump's characteristically after-hours tweets defending his behavior, as well as other reporting. ..."
"... The New York Times , in its own reporting of the story, initially stated that the information on ISIS did not come from an NSA or CIA operation, and later reported that the source was Israel. ..."
"... And President Trump has one more thing to think about. No matter what damage comes out of the Lavrov discussion, he has a bigger problem. There are apparently multiple leakers on his National Security Council. ..."
"... You have McMaster himself who categorically denies any exposure of sources and methods – he was there in person and witness to the talks – and a cloud of unknown witnesses not present speculating, without reference to McMaster or Tillerson's testimony, about what might have happened. This is the American Media in a nutshell, the Infinite Circle Jerk. ..."
"... I am more disturbed how this story got into the press. While, not an ally, I think we should in cooperation with other states. Because the Pres is not familiar with the protocols and language and I doubt any executive has been upon entering office, I have no doubt he may be reacting or overreacting to the overreaction of others. ..."
"... Here's a word. We have no business engaging n the overthrow of another government that is no threat to the US or her allies, and that includes Israel. Syria is not. And we should cease and desist getting further entangled in the messes of the previous executive, his Sec of State and those organizations who seem to e playing with the life blood of the US by engaging if unnecessary risks. ..."
"... And if I understand the crumbs given the data provided by the Post, the Times and this article, if one had ill will for the source of said information, they have pretty good idea where to start. ..."
"... In general I agree with you, but the media was NEVER concerned about the treatment of sensitive material from HRC! ..."
"... I think he needs to cut back on intelligence sharing with Israel. They do just what the hell they want to do with anything. ..."
May 16, 2017 | www.theamericanconservative.com
Intelligence agencies and senior government officials tend to use a lot of jargon. Laced with acronyms, this language sometimes does not translate very well into journalese when it hits the media.

For example, I experienced a sense of disorientation two weeks ago over the word "sensitive" as used by several senators, Sally Yates, and James Clapper during committee testimony into Russiagate. "Sensitive" has, of course, a number of meanings. But what astonished me was how quickly the media interpreted its use in the hearings to mean that the conversations and emails that apparently were recorded or intercepted involving Trump associates and assorted Russians as "sensitive contacts" meant that they were necessarily inappropriate, dangerous, or even illegal.

When Yates and Clapper were using "sensitive" thirteen times in the 86 page transcript of the Senate hearings, they were referring to the medium rather than the message. They were both acknowledging that the sources of the information were intelligence related, sometimes referred to as "sensitive" by intelligence professionals and government insiders as a shorthand way to describe that they are "need to know" material derived from either classified "methods" or foreign-liaison partners. That does not mean that the information contained is either good or bad or even true or false, but merely a way of expressing that the information must be protected because of where it came from or how it was developed, hence the "sensitivity."

The word also popped up this week in a Washington Post exclusive report alleging that the president had, in his recent meeting with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, gone too far while also suggesting that the source of a highly classified government program might be inferred from the context of what was actually revealed. The Post describes how

The information Trump relayed had been provided by a U.S. partner through an intelligence-sharing arrangement considered so sensitive that details have been withheld from allies and tightly restricted even within the U.S. government, officials said. The partner had not given the United States permission to share the material with Russia, and officials said that Trump's decision to do so risks cooperation from an ally that has access to the inner workings of the Islamic State.

The Post is unfortunately also providing ISIS with more information than it "needs to know" to make its story more dramatic, further compromising the source. Furthermore, it should be understood that the paper is extremely hostile to Trump, the story is as always based on anonymous sources, and the revelation comes on top of another unverifiable Post article claiming that the Russians might have sought to sneak a recording device into the White House during the visit.

No one is denying that the president discussed ISIS in some detail with Lavrov, but National Security Advisor H.R. McMaster and Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, both of whom were present at the meeting, have denied that any sources or methods were revealed while reviewing with the Russians available intelligence. McMaster described the report as "false" and informed the Post that "The president and the foreign minister reviewed common threats from terrorist organizations to include threats to aviation. At no time were any intelligence sources or methods discussed and no military operations were disclosed that were not already known publicly." Tillerson commented that "the nature of specific threats were (sic) discussed, but they did not discuss sources, methods, or military operations."

So the question becomes to what extent can an intelligence mechanism be identified from the information that it produces. That is, to a certain extent, a judgment call. The president is able on his own authority to declassify anything, so the legality of his sharing information with Russia cannot be challenged. What is at question is the decision-making by an inexperienced president who may have been showing off to an important foreign visitor by revealing details of intelligence that should have remained secret. The media will no doubt be seeking to magnify the potential damage done while the White House goes into damage control mode.

The media is claiming that the specific discussion with Lavrov that is causing particular concern is related to a so-called Special Access Program , or SAP, sometimes referred to as "code word information." An SAP is an operation that generates intelligence that requires special protection because of where or how it is produced. In this case, the intelligence shared with Lavrov appears to be related to specific ISIS threats, which may include planned operations against civilian aircraft, judging from Trump's characteristically after-hours tweets defending his behavior, as well as other reporting.

There have also been reports that the White House followed up on its Lavrov meeting with a routine review of what had taken place. Several National Security Council members observed that some of the information shared with the Russians was far too sensitive to disseminate within the U.S. intelligence community. This led to the placing of urgent calls to NSA and CIA to brief them on what had been said.

Based on the recipients of the calls alone, one might surmise that the source of the information would appear to be either a foreign-intelligence service or a technical collection operation, or even both combined. The Post claims that the originator of the intelligence did not clear its sharing with the Russians and raises the possibility that no more information of that type will be provided at all in light of the White House's apparent carelessness in its use. The New York Times , in its own reporting of the story, initially stated that the information on ISIS did not come from an NSA or CIA operation, and later reported that the source was Israel.

The Times is also reporting that Trump provided to Lavrov "granular" information on the city in Syria where the information was collected that will possibly enable the Russians or ISIS to identify the actual source, with devastating consequences. That projection may be overreach, but the fact is that the latest gaffe from the White House could well damage an important intelligence liaison relationship in the Middle East while reinforcing the widely held impression that Washington does not know how to keep a secret. It will also create the impression that Donald Trump, out of ignorance or hubris, exhibits a certain recklessness in his dealing with classified information, a failing that he once attributed to his presidential opponent Hillary Clinton.

And President Trump has one more thing to think about. No matter what damage comes out of the Lavrov discussion, he has a bigger problem. There are apparently multiple leakers on his National Security Council.

Philip Giraldi, a former CIA officer, is executive director of the Council for the National Interest.

This article has been updated to reflect news developments.

Thymoleontas, says: May 16, 2017 at 12:33 pm

" The latest gaffe from the White House could well damage an important intelligence liaison relationship in the Middle East "

On the other hand, it also represents closer collaboration with Russia–even if unintended–which is an improvement on the status quo ante and, not to mention, key to ending the conflict in Syria.

Dies Irae , says: May 16, 2017 at 12:38 pm
You have McMaster himself who categorically denies any exposure of sources and methods – he was there in person and witness to the talks – and a cloud of unknown witnesses not present speculating, without reference to McMaster or Tillerson's testimony, about what might have happened. This is the American Media in a nutshell, the Infinite Circle Jerk.
MM , says: May 16, 2017 at 12:44 pm
Out of my depth, but was Trump working within the framework, maybe a bit outside if the story is true, of the Joint Implementation Group the Obama administration created last year with Russia?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/r/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2016/07/13/Editorial-Opinion/Graphics/terms_of_reference_for_the_Joint_Implementation_Group.pdf?tid=a_inl

Also, I recall reading that the prior administration promised Russia ISIS intel. Not sure if that ever happened, but I doubt they'd have made it public or leak anything to the press.

Brian W , says: May 16, 2017 at 12:57 pm
Apr 21, 2017 Ike and McCarthy: Dwight Eisenhower's Secret Campaign against Joseph McCarthy

Author David A. Nichols reveals how President Dwight D. Eisenhower masterminded the downfall of the anti-Communist demagogue Senator Joseph McCarthy.

https://youtu.be/FAY_9aQMVbQ

EliteCommInc , says: May 16, 2017 at 12:57 pm
Avoiding the minutia.

I think it should go without saying that intelligence is a sensitive business and protecting those who operate in its murky waters is important to having an effective agency.

Of course the Pres of the US has a duty to do so.

I have not yet read the post article. But I am doubtful that the executive had any intention of putting anyone in harms way. I am equally doubtful that this incident will. If the executive made an error in judgement, I am sure it will be dealt wit in an appropriate manner.

I do wish he'd stop tweeting, though I get why its useful to him.

I am more disturbed how this story got into the press. While, not an ally, I think we should in cooperation with other states. Because the Pres is not familiar with the protocols and language and I doubt any executive has been upon entering office, I have no doubt he may be reacting or overreacting to the overreaction of others.

Here's a word. We have no business engaging n the overthrow of another government that is no threat to the US or her allies, and that includes Israel. Syria is not. And we should cease and desist getting further entangled in the messes of the previous executive, his Sec of State and those organizations who seem to e playing with the life blood of the US by engaging if unnecessary risks.

Just another brier brushfire of a single tumble weed to add to the others in the hope that setting fires in trashcans will make the current exec go away or at least engage in a mea culpa and sign more checks in the mess that is the middle east policy objective that remains a dead end.

__________

And if I understand the crumbs given the data provided by the Post, the Times and this article, if one had ill will for the source of said information, they have pretty good idea where to start.

Cachip , says: May 16, 2017 at 1:12 pm
How do you know it wasn't intended as pure misdirection?
Brian W , says: May 16, 2017 at 1:20 pm
January 10, 2014 *500* Years of History Shows that Mass Spying Is Always Aimed at Crushing Dissent

No matter which government conducts mass surveillance, they also do it to crush dissent, and then give a false rationale for why they're doing it.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/500-years-of-history-shows-that-mass-spying-is-always-aimed-at-crushing-dissent/5364462

Johann , says: May 16, 2017 at 1:54 pm
Politics is now directly endangering innocent civilians. Because of the leaks and its publication, ISIS for sure now knows that there is an information leak out of their organization. They will now re-compartmentalize and may be successful in breaking that information leak. Innocent airline passenger civilians, American, Russian, or whoever may die as a result. Russia and the US are both fighting ISIS. We are de facto allies in that fight whether some people like it or not. Time to get over it.
EliteCommInc. , says: May 16, 2017 at 2:44 pm
Having read the article, uhhh, excuse me, but unlike personal secrets. The purpose of intel is to use to or keep on hand for some-other date. But of that information is related to the security of our interests and certainly a cooperative relationship with Russia is in our interest. Because in the convoluted fight with ISIS/ISIL, Russia is an ally.

What this belies is the mess of the intelligence community. If in fact, the Russians intend to take a source who provided information that was helpful to them, it would be a peculiar twist of strategic action. The response does tell us that we are in some manner in league with ISIS/ISIL or their supporters so deep that there is a need to protect them, from what is anybody's guess. Because if the information is accurate, I doubt the Russians are going to about killing the source, but rather improving their airline security.

But if we are in fact attempting to remove Pres Assad, and are in league with ISIS/ISIL in doing so - I get why the advocates of such nonsense might be in a huff. So ISIS/ISISL our one time foe and now our sometimes friend . . .

Good greif . . .

Pres Trump is the least of muy concerns when it coes to security.

Some relevant material on intel:

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/the-administration/327413-how-the-intel-community-was-turned-into-a-political

http://www.lexingtoninstitute.org/intelligence-failures-more-profound-than-president-admits/

But if I were Pres Trump, I might steer clear of Russia for a while to stop feeding the beast.

Kurt Gayle , says: May 16, 2017 at 3:28 pm
Philip, back on July 23, 2014, you explained in "How ISIS Evades the CIA" "the inability of the United States government to anticipate the ISIS offensive that has succeeded in taking control of a large part of Iraq." You explained why the CIA had to date had no success in infiltrating ISIS.

You continued: "Given U.S. intelligence's probable limited physical access to any actual terrorist groups operating in Syria or Iraq any direct attempt to penetrate the organization through placing a source inside would be difficult in the extreme. Such efforts would most likely be dependent on the assistance of friendly intelligence services in Turkey or Jordan. Both Turkey and Jordan have reported that terrorists have entered their countries by concealing themselves in the large numbers of refugees that the conflict in Syria has produced, and both are concerned as they understand full well that groups like ISIS will be targeting them next. Some of the infiltrating adherents to radical groups have certainly been identified and detained by the respective intelligence services of those two countries, and undoubtedly efforts have been made to 'turn' some of those in custody to send them back into Syria (and more recently Iraq) to report on what is taking place. Depending on what arrangements might have been made to coordinate the operations, the 'take' might well be shared with the United States and other friendly governments."

You then describe the difficulties faced by a Turkish or Jordanian agent trying to infiltrate ISIS: "But seeding is very much hit or miss, as someone who has been out of the loop of his organization might have difficulty working his way back in. He will almost certainly be regarded with some suspicion by his peers and would be searched and watched after his return, meaning that he could not take back with him any sophisticated communications devices no matter how cleverly they are concealed. This would make communicating any information obtained back to one's case officers in Jordan or Turkey difficult or even impossible."

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/how-isis-evades-the-cia/

Notwithstanding how "difficult or even impossible" such an operation would be - and using the New York Times as your only source for a lot of otherwise completely unsubstantiated information – and admitting that "this is sheer speculation on my part" – you say that "it is logical to assume that the countries that have provided numerous recruits for ISIS [Turkey, Jordan, Saudi Arabia] would have used that fact as cover to carry out a seeding operation to introduce some of their own agents into the ISIS organization."

Back to the New York Times as your only source, you say that "the Times is also reporting that Trump provided to Lavrov 'granular' information on the city in Syria where the information was collected that will possibly enable the Russians or ISIS to identify the actual source, with devastating consequences."

But having ventured into the far reaches of that line of speculation, you do admit that "that projection may be overreach." Indeed!

You go on to characterize the events of the White House meeting with the Russians as "the latest gaffe from the White House" – even though there is absolutely no evidence (outside of the unsubstantiated reports of the Washington Post and the New York Times) that anything to do with the meeting was a "gaffe" – and you further speculate that "it could well damage an important intelligence liaison relationship in the Middle East."

That is, again, pure speculation on your part.

One valuable lesson that you've taught TAC readers over the years, Philip: That we need to carefully examine the sources of information – and the sources of dis-information.

KennethF , says: May 16, 2017 at 3:33 pm
Yet again from Giraldi: the problem isn't that the POTUS is ignorant and incompetent; we should all be more concerned that the Deep State is leaking the proof.
collin , says: May 16, 2017 at 4:12 pm
In general I agree with you, but the media was NEVER concerned about the treatment of sensitive material from HRC!
charley , says: May 16, 2017 at 4:51 pm
I think he needs to cut back on intelligence sharing with Israel. They do just what the hell they want to do with anything.
Brad Kain , says: May 16, 2017 at 5:03 pm
Trump has now essentially confirmed the story from the Post and contradicted the denials from McMaster – he shared specific intelligence to demonstrate his willingness to work with the Russians. Moreover, it seems that Israel was the ally that provided this intelligence. The author and others will defend this, but I can only see this as a reckless and impulsive decision that only causes Russia and our allies to trust the US less.

[May 14, 2017] Classified America Why Is the US Public Allowed To Know So Little by Robert Koehler

Notable quotes:
"... And I have yet to hear a mainstream journo challenge or question that word or ask what could be at stake that requires protective secrecy even as the U.S. government seemingly threatens to collapse around Michael Flynn, America's national security advisor for three weeks, and his relationship to Russia. Is there really any there there? ..."
"... I'm not suggesting that there isn't, or that it's all fake news. Trump and pals are undoubtedly entwined financially with Russian oligarchs, which of course is deeply problematic. And maybe there's more. And maybe some of that "more" is arguably classified for a valid reason, but I want, at the very least, to know why it's classified. What I read and hear feels, instead, like collusion: journalists unquestioningly honoring bureaucratic keep-out signs as objective, even sacred, stopping points. Public knowledge must go no further because . . . you know, national security. But the drama continues! ..."
"... And this is troubling to me because, for starters, nations built on secrecy are far more unstable than those that aren't. ..."
"... The United States is engaged in endless war, at unbelievable and never-discussed cost, to no end except destruction in all directions. Those who have launched and perpetuated the wars remain the determiners of what's classified and what isn't. And Russia lurks silently in the background as a new Cold War gestates. And the media participate not in reporting the news but promoting the drama. ..."
"... Occasionally this has not been the case. Remember the Pentagon Papers? Daniel Ellsberg photocopied a multi-thousand-page secret history of the Vietnam War in 1971 and handed it over to the New York Times. It was classified! But papers printed it. And Sen. Mike Gravel later read portions of the text aloud at a Senate subcommittee hearing. ..."
"... "These portions," notes history.com , "revealed that the presidential administrations of Harry S. Truman, Dwight D. Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson had all misled the public about the degree of US involvement in Vietnam, from Truman's decision to give military aid to France during its struggle against the communist-led Viet Minh to Johnson's development of plans to escalate the war in Vietnam as early as 1964, even as he claimed the opposite during that year's presidential election." ..."
"... Our own government, in short, is as untrustworthy as the governments of our allies and our enemies. Government officials left to operate free of public scrutiny – bereft of public input – have proven themselves over and over to be shockingly shortsighted and cold-blooded in their decision-making, and indifferent to the impact they have on the future. ..."
"... "It is nearly a truism," writes Jeffrey Sachs , "that US wars of regime change have rarely served America's security needs. Even when the wars succeed in overthrowing a government, as in the case of the Taliban in Afghanistan, Saddam Hussein in Iraq, and Moammar Khadafy in Libya, the result is rarely a stable government, and is more often a civil war. ..."
May 14, 2017 | original.antiwar.com

Classified America: Why Is the US Public Allowed To Know So Little?

by Robert Koehler , May 13, 2017 Print This | Share This For a journalist – especially one covering government and politics – the most suspicious, least trustworthy word in the language ought to be: "classified."

As the drama continues to swirl around Russiagate, or whatever the central controversy of the Trump administration winds up being known as, that word keeps popping up, teasingly, seductively: "It appeared that there was a great deal more (former acting Attorney General Sally) Yates wished she could share," the Washington Post informed us the other day, for instance, "but most of the information surrounding everything that happened remains classified."

And the drama continues! And I have yet to hear a mainstream journo challenge or question that word or ask what could be at stake that requires protective secrecy even as the U.S. government seemingly threatens to collapse around Michael Flynn, America's national security advisor for three weeks, and his relationship to Russia. Is there really any there there?

I'm not suggesting that there isn't, or that it's all fake news. Trump and pals are undoubtedly entwined financially with Russian oligarchs, which of course is deeply problematic. And maybe there's more. And maybe some of that "more" is arguably classified for a valid reason, but I want, at the very least, to know why it's classified. What I read and hear feels, instead, like collusion: journalists unquestioningly honoring bureaucratic keep-out signs as objective, even sacred, stopping points. Public knowledge must go no further because . . . you know, national security. But the drama continues!

And this is troubling to me because, for starters, nations built on secrecy are far more unstable than those that aren't. Job #1 of a free, independent media is the full-on, continuous challenge to government secrecy. Such a media understands that it answers to the public, or rather, that it's a manifestation of the public will. Stability and freedom are not the result of private tinkering. And peace is something created openly. The best of who we are is contained in the public soul, not bequeathed to us by unfathomably wise leaders.

So I cringe every time I hear the news stop at the word "classified." Indeed, in the Trump era, it seems like a plot device: a way to maintain the drama. ". . . there was a great deal more Yates wished she could share, but most of the information surrounding everything that happened remains classified."

Stay tuned, and keep your imaginations turned to high! This is Russia we're talking about. They messed with our election. They "attacked" us in cyberspace. We'd tell you more about how bad things are, but . . . you know, national security.

If nothing else, this endless retreat behind the word "classified" is a waste of the Trump presidency. This administration's recklessness is opening all sorts of random doors on national secrets that need airing. It's not as though the country was sailing along smoothly and keeping the world safe and peaceful till Donald Trump showed up.

Trump could well be making a bad situation worse, but, as William Hartung pointed out: "After all, he inherited no less than seven conflicts from Barack Obama: Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Pakistan, Somalia, Syria and Yemen."

The United States is engaged in endless war, at unbelievable and never-discussed cost, to no end except destruction in all directions. Those who have launched and perpetuated the wars remain the determiners of what's classified and what isn't. And Russia lurks silently in the background as a new Cold War gestates. And the media participate not in reporting the news but promoting the drama.

Occasionally this has not been the case. Remember the Pentagon Papers? Daniel Ellsberg photocopied a multi-thousand-page secret history of the Vietnam War in 1971 and handed it over to the New York Times. It was classified! But papers printed it. And Sen. Mike Gravel later read portions of the text aloud at a Senate subcommittee hearing.

"These portions," notes history.com , "revealed that the presidential administrations of Harry S. Truman, Dwight D. Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson had all misled the public about the degree of US involvement in Vietnam, from Truman's decision to give military aid to France during its struggle against the communist-led Viet Minh to Johnson's development of plans to escalate the war in Vietnam as early as 1964, even as he claimed the opposite during that year's presidential election."

Our own government, in short, is as untrustworthy as the governments of our allies and our enemies. Government officials left to operate free of public scrutiny – bereft of public input – have proven themselves over and over to be shockingly shortsighted and cold-blooded in their decision-making, and indifferent to the impact they have on the future.

"It is nearly a truism," writes Jeffrey Sachs , "that US wars of regime change have rarely served America's security needs. Even when the wars succeed in overthrowing a government, as in the case of the Taliban in Afghanistan, Saddam Hussein in Iraq, and Moammar Khadafy in Libya, the result is rarely a stable government, and is more often a civil war. A 'successful' regime change often lights a long fuse leading to a future explosion, such as the 1953 overthrow of Iran's democratically elected government and installation of the autocratic Shah of Iran, which was followed by the Iranian Revolution of 1979."

All of this, and so much more, preceded Trump. He's only the tail end of our troubles.

Robert Koehler is an award-winning, Chicago-based journalist and nationally syndicated writer. His new book, Courage Grows Strong at the Wound is now available. Contact him at [email protected] or visit his website at commonwonders.com . Reprinted with permission from PeaceVoice .

[Apr 22, 2017] This is one of the best articles I have read about Septemeber 11 attack. No hysterics, just facts. the classic controlled demolition style of WTC7's collapse is one of them

Apr 22, 2017 | www.unz.com

Timur The Lame , April 9, 2017 at 11:36 am GMT \n

100 Words @ Carlton Meyer,

I was peripherally displayed on 60 minutes some 20 years ago. I spent an hour chatting with Mike Wallace. I liked him. He obviously had an marching orders but seemed apologetic in demeanor. In hindsight I realized that he knew that he was a whore when pursuing political or historical issues. My comportment and wit was brilliant ( sorry for the self praise) but of the hour that was filmed they cropped out a 5 second segment that fit their agenda. I was shocked when the segment aired but I was also relatively naive at the time. In other words they were already neutered then.

As an aside, when referencing the issues with respect to WTC 7 I always referred to it as a 47 story building. Mr. Dinh now reveals that it was a 52 story building. I feel foolish.

Cheers- Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

Vires , April 9, 2017 at 11:53 am GMT \n
400 Words Spot on Mr. Lihn, we have to distinguish between the majority of Jews, the decent and intellectually honest ones, most of them manipulated, afraid to lose their jobs and used like the rest of us, and the intellectually dishonest, sociopathic Jew supremacist shill ones (and their non-Jewish stooges, accomplices and enforcers), the Chomskies, Rumsfelds, Rotschilds, Warburgs, Rockefellers, Wilsons, Roosevelts, Churchills, Cheneys, Rubios, Clintons, Bushes, Kagans, Kristols, Wolfowitzs, Foxmans, Shermans, Incitatuses, Dissidents, Corvinuses, Iffies and the Sam the Shams of the world.

We love the decent, intellectually honest and loyal to the countries they live in ones, David Coles, Gilad Atzmons, Arno J. Mayers, Marcus Alethias and Ron Unzs of the world, we are in the same boat with them and we need them to speak up and join us.

And if some of us do not, we are just playing in the hands of the Zionists, being distrustful of all Jews and becoming Jew haters we also become their useful idiots, because the more we hate them, the likelier they are to migrate to Israel, and that is and always has been the central goal of Zionism, and that is the reason why they expect and applaud when some of us go full anti-semite, and also the reason that explains the trolling here in the comments by the Zionist shills, trying to frame bloggers and commenters as anti-semites, so the casual reader who is still on the fence on the Jewish Lobby issue dismisses the whole publication as "Jew-hater" and"Anti-semitic"

That is also the main reason Jewish movers and shakers are pushing for more immigration, the closer to Mexico the US becomes and the closer to Pakistan and Algeria Europe becomes, the more European and American Jews will go back to Israel, that is the central goal of Zionism.

The gathering of the exiles in the land of Israel, became the core idea of the Zionist Movement[1] and the core idea of Israel's Scroll of Independence[2] (Megilat Ha'atzmaut[3]), embodied by the idea of going up, Aliyah, since the Holy Land is considered to be spiritually higher than all other land.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gathering_of_Israel

Is just part of their plan. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

Santoculto , April 9, 2017 at 12:02 pm GMT \n
Hbd liars in only one twitt

https://mobile.twitter.com/hbdchick/status/851005493392941056?p=v

Joo on the right explain you *_* Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

Sherman , April 9, 2017 at 12:46 pm GMT \n
Here's another article about Christopher Bollyn and Rudy Dent and the losers and misfits they appeal to:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/09/10/jew-hater-christopher-bollyn-brings-9-11-false-flag-act-to-the-brooklyn-commons.html Read More

jacques sheete , April 9, 2017 at 1:06 pm GMT \n
200 Words This is one of the best articles I've read on UR, and that's saying a lot. No hysterics, just facts.

The question of the century.:

So who are you going to believe? Are you going to believe a bunch of government bureaucrats, or my fellow brothers

Warning of ages.:

Foolish Credulity

Why is it that, though deceived again and again by the same things and persons, we are unable to abandon our blind folly?

For this particular kind of fraud has often been committed before now, and by many. That other men should allow themselves to be taken in is perhaps not astonishing; but it is [astonishing]that those should do so who are the authors and origin of the same kind of malpractice.

But I suppose the cause is the absence of that rule so happily expressed by Epicharmus:

"Cool head and wise mistrust are wisdom's sinews. " . . .

- Polybius, Histories.18.40 Composed ~200BC, Translated by Evelyn S. Shuckburgh. translator. London, New York. Macmillan. 1889. Reprint Bloomington 1962.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0234:book=18:chapter=40&highlight=epicharmus

Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
Renoman , April 9, 2017 at 2:02 pm GMT \n
Great work Linh! Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
Anonymouse , April 9, 2017 at 2:23 pm GMT \n
100 Words Doesn't the mysterious collapse of Building 7 suggest no conspiracy. As the building was empty undergoing a rebuild, what would be the point of destroying it?

From the Zionists making Pearl Harbor happen to their race being the maleficient agent directing all of human history is not that much of a leap. In sober historical fact, Zionists in 1941 in Palestine under the English mandate were not remotely in a position of power. Had they the power, they might have saved their compatriots in Europe by orchestrating massive emigration, which in fact was not permitted by the sovereign nations that might have accepted them. Of course, you can always factor in that inconvenient fact into the conspiracy theory. Read More

jacques sheete , April 9, 2017 at 2:23 pm GMT \n
@Sherman Here's another article about Christopher Bollyn and Rudy Dent and the losers and misfits they appeal to:


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/09/10/jew-hater-christopher-bollyn-brings-9-11-false-flag-act-to-the-brooklyn-commons.html

Here's another article

You call that credible?

ROFL. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

dninmore , April 9, 2017 at 2:24 pm GMT \n
Typical response from a Hasbara. No supporting evidence to refute the facts, so you go to ad hominem. Read More
dninmore , April 9, 2017 at 2:26 pm GMT \n
@Shouting Thomas You're using Louis Farrakhan as a go to source?

You just trashed yourself. Why? The truth is the truth, regardless of who the speaker is. Read More Agree: jacques sheete Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

dninmore , April 9, 2017 at 3:38 pm GMT \n
@Anonymouse Doesn't the mysterious collapse of Building 7 suggest no conspiracy. As the building was empty undergoing a rebuild, what would be the point of destroying it?

From the Zionists making Pearl Harbor happen to their race being the maleficient agent directing all of human history is not that much of a leap. In sober historical fact, Zionists in 1941 in Palestine under the English mandate were not remotely in a position of power. Had they the power, they might have saved their compatriots in Europe by orchestrating massive emigration, which in fact was not permitted by the sovereign nations that might have accepted them. Of course, you can always factor in that inconvenient fact into the conspiracy theory. Interesting that you state, "Had they the power, they might have saved their compatriots in Europe by orchestrating massive emigration", and ignore the truth which is that was exactly what they did. You need to do more research, unless you prefer to spout the Zio-propaganda. Read More

Agent76 , April 9, 2017 at 4:10 pm GMT \n
100 Words May 25, 2014 FDNY 9/11 Survivor Witness and Whistleblower Speaks on WTC 7

Listen very carefully starting at the '20′ second mark! As a firefighter on 9/11, he was at Ground Zero and was there when Building 7 came down.

September 11, 2016 Al Qaeda: The Data Base

Shortly before his untimely death, former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook told the House of Commons that "Al Qaeda" is not really a terrorist group but a database of international mujaheddin and arms smugglers used by the CIA and Saudis to funnel guerrillas, arms, and money into Soviet-occupied Afghanistan.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/al-qaeda-the-database-2/24738 Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

Vires , April 9, 2017 at 4:13 pm GMT \n
100 Words @Sherman Here's another article about Christopher Bollyn and Rudy Dent and the losers and misfits they appeal to:


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/09/10/jew-hater-christopher-bollyn-brings-9-11-false-flag-act-to-the-brooklyn-commons.html And here you are, Goy-hater Zionist shill, right on time to disqualify the sources and the blogger by association as "Jew-haters" for publishing the story.

Sociopathic Jews like you are the ones we hate, always ready to troll, agitate and favour the Zionist agenda with obvious Jewish names so we end up distrusting all Jews, disqualify bloggers and commenters as "Jew-haters" "anti-semites" and do whatever necessary to achieve the Zionist goals without giving a damn about us Europeans and Americans.

Try something else shill your usual PR garbage ain't working no more. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

Agent76 , April 9, 2017 at 4:19 pm GMT \n
100 Words Sep 5, 2016 9/11 Suspects: Rudy Giuliani

Mayor Giuliani oversaw the illegal destruction of the 9/11 crime scene and is criminally liable for the deaths of hundreds of emergency workers for not passing on prior warnings about the collapses of the Twin Towers. It is no wonder, then, that the Fire Department of New York so passionately detest Giuliani for his actions in disgracing their fallen brothers and covering up the 9/11 crime.

Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

jacques sheete , April 9, 2017 at 4:25 pm GMT \n
100 Words @dninmore Interesting that you state, "Had they the power, they might have saved their compatriots in Europe by orchestrating massive emigration", and ignore the truth which is that was exactly what they did. You need to do more research, unless you prefer to spout the Zio-propaganda. Every one of the claims is likewise easily refutable. Pretty lame, all of it.

E.g., this.:

As the building was empty undergoing a rebuild, what would be the point of destroying it?

Who said it was undergoing a rebuild? Maybe it was undergoing a demolition wiring instead. Besides, even if it were initially undergoing a true rebuild, so what? Plans change. Could it be a convenient cover, diversion, perhaps? Collect insurance payouts?

Furthermore, if I were in the name-calling mode like Sherm, (but I'm not ), I'd say the true believers of the "official" narrative are saps and gulls. Read More

Wolfred , April 9, 2017 at 4:30 pm GMT \n
I used to have respect for you Linh Dinh, but no more.

You have just outed yourself as just another wacko nutjob. Read More

unit472 , April 9, 2017 at 4:38 pm GMT \n
200 Words I tend to believe my lying eyes and not deranged fanatics. Highrise buildings have not collapsed due to fire because they are not struck by fuel laden projectiles moving at 500 mph and weighing 250 tons. They also have firemen who are still alive and working fire suppression systems trying to put the fire out. All of that fire fighting capability disappeared on 9/11. The structural damage alone from the aircraft impact likely doomed both towers even in the absence of fires. NYPD helicopter pilots reported the top of towers were leaning long before they collapsed owing to the exterior steel walls being the main structural steel support in modern skyscrapers unlike the internal steel boxes used in older skyscrapers that required more steel to be used and limited floor space.

Building 7 is harder to explain but it had been hit with multiton steel beams moving at high speed from the collapse of the twin towers. These would have ripped apart electrical systems and caused fires. As building 7 was the site of the NYC Emergency operations center thousands of gallons of diesel fuel was stored in the building to operate generators and once fire personel were withdrawn nothing was left to prevent fire from reaching those generators and fuel supplies. Read More

Amanda , April 9, 2017 at 4:39 pm GMT \n
100 Words Article mentioned Rothschilds instigating, orchestrating, and profiting from WW2 and I also wanted to add what loyal American Jew, Benjamin Freedman had to say about WW1 and WW2 (he ought to know b/c he was the right hand man of Bernard Baruch, Rothschild front-man, basically the Soros of yesterday.

Benjamin Freedman's 1961 Speech at the Willard Hotel (Complete)

Benjamin H. Freedman's excellent speech on how World War One (and Two) really started and why the U.S. was eventually drawn in. Read More

dninmore , April 9, 2017 at 5:02 pm GMT \n
@jacques sheete Every one of the claims is likewise easily refutable. Pretty lame, all of it.

E.g., this.:


As the building was empty undergoing a rebuild, what would be the point of destroying it?
Who said it was undergoing a rebuild? Maybe it was undergoing a demolition wiring instead. Besides, even if it were initially undergoing a true rebuild, so what? Plans change. Could it be a convenient cover, diversion, perhaps? Collect insurance payouts?

Furthermore, if I were in the name-calling mode like Sherm, (but I'm not...), I'd say the true believers of the "official" narrative are saps and gulls. In 12 years of research, I've never heard of a whole building renovation. More disinformation. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

dninmore , April 9, 2017 at 5:03 pm GMT \n
@Wolfred I used to have respect for you Linh Dinh, but no more.

You have just outed yourself as just another wacko nutjob. Spoken like a true Hasbara. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

jacques sheete , April 9, 2017 at 5:10 pm GMT \n
@unit472 I tend to believe my lying eyes and not deranged fanatics. Highrise buildings have not collapsed due to fire because they are not struck by fuel laden projectiles moving at 500 mph and weighing 250 tons. They also have firemen who are still alive and working fire suppression systems trying to put the fire out. All of that fire fighting capability disappeared on 9/11. The structural damage alone from the aircraft impact likely doomed both towers even in the absence of fires. NYPD helicopter pilots reported the top of towers were leaning long before they collapsed owing to the exterior steel walls being the main structural steel support in modern skyscrapers unlike the internal steel boxes used in older skyscrapers that required more steel to be used and limited floor space.

Building 7 is harder to explain but it had been hit with multiton steel beams moving at high speed from the collapse of the twin towers. These would have ripped apart electrical systems and caused fires. As building 7 was the site of the NYC Emergency operations center thousands of gallons of diesel fuel was stored in the building to operate generators and once fire personel were withdrawn nothing was left to prevent fire from reaching those generators and fuel supplies.

Building 7 is harder to explain

As in harder to lie about?

Does the command, "Pull it" mean anything to the true believers? Or how about the idea that it was reported collapsing even before it did?

'Splain that. (Yeah, yeah, I know, it's a "myth.") Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

dninmore , April 9, 2017 at 5:16 pm GMT \n
@unit472 I tend to believe my lying eyes and not deranged fanatics. Highrise buildings have not collapsed due to fire because they are not struck by fuel laden projectiles moving at 500 mph and weighing 250 tons. They also have firemen who are still alive and working fire suppression systems trying to put the fire out. All of that fire fighting capability disappeared on 9/11. The structural damage alone from the aircraft impact likely doomed both towers even in the absence of fires. NYPD helicopter pilots reported the top of towers were leaning long before they collapsed owing to the exterior steel walls being the main structural steel support in modern skyscrapers unlike the internal steel boxes used in older skyscrapers that required more steel to be used and limited floor space.

Building 7 is harder to explain but it had been hit with multiton steel beams moving at high speed from the collapse of the twin towers. These would have ripped apart electrical systems and caused fires. As building 7 was the site of the NYC Emergency operations center thousands of gallons of diesel fuel was stored in the building to operate generators and once fire personel were withdrawn nothing was left to prevent fire from reaching those generators and fuel supplies. Fires can't bring down steel superstructures. It's physically impossible. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

Amanda , April 9, 2017 at 5:48 pm GMT \n
300 Words Also, fwiw, I first learned about Benjamin Freedman from the site http://www.iamthewitness.com , which was basically a site dedicated to researching Zionism. The site was run by an American living in France, and he unfortunately had to shut the site down due to concerns about French laws against free speech. Anyway, for now, there is a mirror site here https://archive.is/UNAqf (not sure how long the mirror will be up, but it would be a shame to lose the info at that site)

Anyone interested in hidden history might want to go through the archives on that site, especially the books. Daryl was able to find some interesting books on hidden/suppressed history, and was able to get them converted so they could be read online. IMO, there are tons of books there worth downloading and reading. A few that stood out to me included the books by Archibald Maule Ramsey, George Armstrong, Executive Intelligence Review (The Ugly Truth about the ADL), Nesta Webster, and Jack Bernstein. Also, fwiw, in one of the books by Bernstein (not sure when it was written but I think decades before 911), he wrote about how at some point the Zionists would drag the US into a huge war in the Middle East and then the Zionist bankers would collapse the economy.

The audios also have good info, but there aren't any summaries of the topics discussed. I recall the audios w/David Pidcock being especially informative (especially the early ones from '06). Pidcock also liked to dig into the history and found some interesting info. I remember one book he talked about was called Propaganda in the Next War, and I guess it was written by British Establishment types, and it was all about how to drag the US into war. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

nsa , April 9, 2017 at 6:00 pm GMT \n
Anyone see the hilarious picture of General (((Kushner))) in Iraq with his pencil neck sticking out of a bulky flak jacket looking like a tortoise walking erect. Even the jooies must want to disown this vile embarrassment ..only thing missing was a dukakis tank helmet and a BB gun. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
Dave337 , April 9, 2017 at 6:13 pm GMT \n
@unit472 I tend to believe my lying eyes and not deranged fanatics. Highrise buildings have not collapsed due to fire because they are not struck by fuel laden projectiles moving at 500 mph and weighing 250 tons. They also have firemen who are still alive and working fire suppression systems trying to put the fire out. All of that fire fighting capability disappeared on 9/11. The structural damage alone from the aircraft impact likely doomed both towers even in the absence of fires. NYPD helicopter pilots reported the top of towers were leaning long before they collapsed owing to the exterior steel walls being the main structural steel support in modern skyscrapers unlike the internal steel boxes used in older skyscrapers that required more steel to be used and limited floor space.

Building 7 is harder to explain but it had been hit with multiton steel beams moving at high speed from the collapse of the twin towers. These would have ripped apart electrical systems and caused fires. As building 7 was the site of the NYC Emergency operations center thousands of gallons of diesel fuel was stored in the building to operate generators and once fire personel were withdrawn nothing was left to prevent fire from reaching those generators and fuel supplies. I'd agree with that but I still don't quite get the lack of plane wreckage at the Pentagon. Of course conspiracy theorists always have an explanation, which may be part of the conspiracy too. Read More

Anonymouse , April 9, 2017 at 6:44 pm GMT \n
300 Words @dninmore Interesting that you state, "Had they the power, they might have saved their compatriots in Europe by orchestrating massive emigration", and ignore the truth which is that was exactly what they did. You need to do more research, unless you prefer to spout the Zio-propaganda. In 1945 I was eleven. The newspapers printed pics of the concentration survivors of the extermination camps liberated by USArmy troups. This was Brooklyn. No Zionist compatriots arrived during the war. After the war, there was a flood of camp survivors who made it to the US. Humble anecdote to establish my claim. I looked up our last name in the Brooklyn phone book back then. There were 3 of that name, my father, my uncle and a third unknown to me. Now were you to look at the Brooklyn phone book as of the last time it was printed and distributed, an enormous number of that last name appears. Proving my claim that there was NO sizeable Jewish immigrants during WW II because the allied sovereign nations wouldn't let them in. Fast forward to 2017 and above and below this comment, one may read the comments of well-meaning folks who know better. Am I part of the conspiracy? I just go on what I know by observation and the perusal of more or less mainstream news sources, US, English, French, Israeli, German. I've done that for a very long time and it seems reasonable to me to believe that I have as a good a sense of recent world history as is practically possible. If the truth is that the Zionists saved their compatriots from Hitler by having their puppets, the US and GB, let them in, then why didn't they show up in Brooklyn during the war where you might expect them to go, and did show up in sizeable numbers AFTER the war was over? Read More
Truth , April 9, 2017 at 7:02 pm GMT \n
@NoseytheDuke Linh Dinh, this is surely your best piece in ages, if not ever. Well done. Rudy Dent truly loves America and America should love him for that. I second Dinh! And in honor of your hosts for this landmarking event; "Youze an O.G N-!" Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
Truth , April 9, 2017 at 7:06 pm GMT \n
@Dave337 I'd agree with that but I still don't quite get the lack of plane wreckage at the Pentagon. Of course conspiracy theorists always have an explanation, which may be part of the conspiracy too. I'd agree with that but I still don't quite get the lack of plane wreckage at the Pentagon.

LOL; what is there not to get; IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

I'm still waiting to see ONE photo of airplane wreckage on the pentagon lawn. Read More

Anonymous33 , April 9, 2017 at 7:24 pm GMT \n
200 Words The real debate of the moment is whether Assad "did or didn'". The news is tellin' us he did, the alter-news says well maybe he didn'. Back n' forth it goes, like a little gerbil wheel for your mind. Maybe melting steel caused the gas release? What's for dinner?

The media works as one, developing your rodent like response to ignore the forest for the trees and focus on your next food pellet. So it is with the great sporting event of the 9/11, back n' forth, easy to digest, processed just for you.

Dinh might be a nice guy and believe in what he does, but he's just another narcotics courier, delivering thoughts and ideas that so many of his kind are trained to do, that serve to disable people more effectively than any overt real weapon. Getting any reaction is valuable, the best artists are widely hated, and they love that hate, but I'd say your real enemies (readers) are the ones you least suspect.

They'll call you terrorists, as Chris Hedges is increasingly doing to the people that read his output! Sound familiar? Linh Dinh's "violence" comes from his pen. He openly mocks his own neighbors, you love that hate, and even when he mocks you you'll still believe he offers the "truth" and hang on to every word. Ignore the forest for the trees at your own perile, but the bad guys are the ones you trust. Read More Troll: utu

dninmore , April 9, 2017 at 7:33 pm GMT \n
300 Words @Anonymouse In 1945 I was eleven. The newspapers printed pics of the concentration survivors of the extermination camps liberated by USArmy troups. This was Brooklyn. No Zionist compatriots arrived during the war. After the war, there was a flood of camp survivors who made it to the US. Humble anecdote to establish my claim. I looked up our last name in the Brooklyn phone book back then. There were 3 of that name, my father, my uncle and a third unknown to me. Now were you to look at the Brooklyn phone book as of the last time it was printed and distributed, an enormous number of that last name appears. Proving my claim that there was NO sizeable Jewish immigrants during WW II because the allied sovereign nations wouldn't let them in. Fast forward to 2017 and above and below this comment, one may read the comments of well-meaning folks who know better. Am I part of the conspiracy? I just go on what I know by observation and the perusal of more or less mainstream news sources, US, English, French, Israeli, German. I've done that for a very long time and it seems reasonable to me to believe that I have as a good a sense of recent world history as is practically possible. If the truth is that the Zionists saved their compatriots from Hitler by having their puppets, the US and GB, let them in, then why didn't they show up in Brooklyn during the war where you might expect them to go, and did show up in sizeable numbers AFTER the war was over? This answer is simple. The Zionists were sending their "compatriots" – by force – to Palestine to populate their new illegitimate state – which is now a rogue, Apartheid one. The whole point of Zionism was to take over the world (their words, not mine), create a Jewish state in Palestine (not their first or second choice, btw), by butchering the native population – ethnic cleansing – to create the center for their NWO. They were even happy to blow up about 2,000 of their "compatriots" in a false flag on the ship Patria docked in port at Haifa to blame on the Brits – typical, yes? I'm sure you've heard of their policy to strip Jewish orphans from their European homes – at gun-point – to bring them to Palestine for the soon-to-be IDF model of violent indoctrination of their youth against Palestinians.

It's true Americans, and most of the world, wanted nothing to do with the parasitic Zionists. The fact that they were able to create both WWI and II, the UN, get their resolution passed and invade Palestine is a testament to how high they had infiltrated the US and GB governments. Of course, it helps when you have Chief SC Justice Brandeis and Franfurter, legislating from the court on behalf of the Zionists and all of the resources of the Rothchild gangsters.

Currently, 90% of the most powerful individuals in the US government, media and banks are Ashkenazy Jews – yet are only 2% of the US population and Ashkenazy are only 4% of that. Think about it.

As far as "extermination camps" go, the only ones I'm aware of (WWII) were created after the war by Eisenhower to finish what the Allies had begun. The only true "Holocaust" (destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, especially caused by fire or nuclear war), was caused by the Allies on the German people in the horrific, unstoppable bombardments of phosphorous all over that country. These facts are never shown in the media, history education or Hollywood. I wonder why that is? Read More

Agent76 , April 9, 2017 at 7:49 pm GMT \n
100 Words Sep 11, 2013 9/11 In A Nutshell as James Corbett presents this 5 minute parody of the official conspiracy theory of 9/11

https://youtu.be/vrJiKbK0tVM

Oct 8, 2016 Afghanistan: 15 Years of Invasion and Occupation

15 years after NATO's invasion and occupation of Afghanistan, the 9/11 and Al Qaeda lies that were used to justify the war have disappeared. Now the truth about oil and gas, mineral wealth, opium and naked imperial ambition are all that remain.

https://youtu.be/UBOdbkqVGAY Read More

jacques sheete , April 9, 2017 at 8:02 pm GMT \n
@dninmore This answer is simple. The Zionists were sending their "compatriots" - by force - to Palestine to populate their new illegitimate state - which is now a rogue, Apartheid one. The whole point of Zionism was to take over the world (their words, not mine), create a Jewish state in Palestine (not their first or second choice, btw), by butchering the native population - ethnic cleansing - to create the center for their NWO. They were even happy to blow up about 2,000 of their "compatriots" in a false flag on the ship Patria docked in port at Haifa to blame on the Brits - typical, yes? I'm sure you've heard of their policy to strip Jewish orphans from their European homes - at gun-point - to bring them to Palestine for the soon-to-be IDF model of violent indoctrination of their youth against Palestinians.

It's true Americans, and most of the world, wanted nothing to do with the parasitic Zionists. The fact that they were able to create both WWI and II, the UN, get their resolution passed and invade Palestine is a testament to how high they had infiltrated the US and GB governments. Of course, it helps when you have Chief SC Justice Brandeis and Franfurter, legislating from the court on behalf of the Zionists and all of the resources of the Rothchild gangsters.

Currently, 90% of the most powerful individuals in the US government, media and banks are Ashkenazy Jews - yet are only 2% of the US population and Ashkenazy are only 4% of that. Think about it.

As far as "extermination camps" go, the only ones I'm aware of (WWII) were created after the war by Eisenhower to finish what the Allies had begun. The only true "Holocaust" (destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, especially caused by fire or nuclear war), was caused by the Allies on the German people in the horrific, unstoppable bombardments of phosphorous all over that country. These facts are never shown in the media, history education or Hollywood. I wonder why that is?

This answer is simple.

Yes it is, and I wonder why the obvious escapes so many. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

jacques sheete , April 9, 2017 at 8:37 pm GMT \n
@Wolfred I used to have respect for you Linh Dinh, but no more.

You have just outed yourself as just another wacko nutjob.

You have just outed yourself as just another wacko nutjob.

I bet that just crushes the poor dude. Probably won't sleep for nights over it.

Lame stuff there, Tiger! Is that the best you got? Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

daniel le mouche , April 9, 2017 at 8:40 pm GMT \n
@wayfarer "War on Terror!"

The Caucasoid race of Aryan, Semitic, and Hamitic have their disparate ideologies, which offer few spiritual crumbs in the way of practical wisdom or useful esoteric knowledge. If the deeper mysteries/truths of creation were genuinely revealed and shared openly within these disparate ideologies, self-serving warfare would not be such a common practice.

Contemplate the spiritual truth that a warrior's odyssey is futile, for it's absolutely impossible to destroy the eternal life/soul of one's enemy.

Peace. forget 'caucasoid race', etc., all races fall for the manipulators' b.s.
tell me (forget about 'immortal souls'), does living a complete lie–completely clueless–constitute living?
'we will know we have won when everything the public believes is false.'–william casey, ex-cia director Read More

dcite , April 9, 2017 at 9:16 pm GMT \n
200 Words @Anonymouse Doesn't the mysterious collapse of Building 7 suggest no conspiracy. As the building was empty undergoing a rebuild, what would be the point of destroying it?

From the Zionists making Pearl Harbor happen to their race being the maleficient agent directing all of human history is not that much of a leap. In sober historical fact, Zionists in 1941 in Palestine under the English mandate were not remotely in a position of power. Had they the power, they might have saved their compatriots in Europe by orchestrating massive emigration, which in fact was not permitted by the sovereign nations that might have accepted them. Of course, you can always factor in that inconvenient fact into the conspiracy theory.

Doesn't the mysterious collapse of Building 7 suggest no conspiracy. As the building was empty undergoing a rebuild, what would be the point of destroying it?

I'm sure Larry Silverstein has the answer to that one. Snopes and "urban myths" assures us that it is, indeed, an urban myth, that Silverstein took out more insurance on Bldg 7 before 9/11/ and his decision to "pull it" (which meant it had to already be ready to pull.) But I don't trust them. Do you? I've also heard there were records being stored in Bldg 7 that "they" would prefer destroyed. Killing two birds with one stone so to speak.
Here's c&p partial table of contents for Bldg 7: offices of the FBI, Department of Defense, IRS (which contained prodigious amounts of corporate tax fraud, including Enron's), US Secret Service, Securities & Exchange Commission (with more stock fraud records), and Citibank's Salomon Smith Barney, the Mayor's Office of Emergency Management and many other financial institutions.
The well known Kissinger quote about soldiers just leaves one dropped jaw. How is it that we have allowed that creature such power. There he always was, at the top of some invisible pyramid. Could anyone see the trajectory of his rise? What allowed him to conduct human sacrifice on citizens of his own country and others. Read More

daniel le mouche , April 9, 2017 at 9:27 pm GMT \n
100 Words Haven't read the article yet, but love the woman's sign in the picture–'Our oppression is NOT up for debate'.
And boy does she look oppressed, along with her co-religionists/racists on the top of every profession that manipulates everyone else–hollywood, network tv, radio, newspapers, magazines, the music industry, universities, government, banks.
Nice try, prick. (Not that a single Unz reader was fooled.) Read More
Amanda , April 9, 2017 at 9:46 pm GMT \n
@Agent76 Sep 11, 2013 9/11 In A Nutshell as James Corbett presents this 5 minute parody of the official conspiracy theory of 9/11

https://youtu.be/vrJiKbK0tVM

Oct 8, 2016 Afghanistan: 15 Years of Invasion and Occupation

15 years after NATO's invasion and occupation of Afghanistan, the 9/11 and Al Qaeda lies that were used to justify the war have disappeared. Now the truth about oil and gas, mineral wealth, opium and naked imperial ambition are all that remain.

https://youtu.be/UBOdbkqVGAY Thanks for linking to James Corbett's video on 9/11–unfortunately, it should have many more views Read More

iffen , April 9, 2017 at 9:55 pm GMT \n
LOL Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
windship , April 9, 2017 at 10:01 pm GMT \n
200 Words My father was a career fireman who had tackled V2 rocket fires in WW2, and both airplane and high rise fires later, and was truly shocked by what happened on 9/11. It ate away at him and his belief in conservative politics. When he died a few years later he left me a large book collection on 9/11, which was quite an education – all of David Ray Griffin's efforts to wake people up, and a lot of photographic evidence he had collected. Since then, I've pursued the truth about those events in due respect for my father. I can see when politicians are lying, and when eye witnesses are telling the truth, and when people I know don't want to hear what I'm saying.

There really cannot be peace in this world when so much international policy is now built on such a rotten and blood-soaked foundation of deceit. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

Amanda , April 9, 2017 at 10:11 pm GMT \n
100 Words @dcite

Doesn't the mysterious collapse of Building 7 suggest no conspiracy. As the building was empty undergoing a rebuild, what would be the point of destroying it?
I'm sure Larry Silverstein has the answer to that one. Snopes and "urban myths" assures us that it is, indeed, an urban myth, that Silverstein took out more insurance on Bldg 7 before 9/11/ and his decision to "pull it" (which meant it had to already be ready to pull.) But I don't trust them. Do you? I've also heard there were records being stored in Bldg 7 that "they" would prefer destroyed. Killing two birds with one stone so to speak.
Here's c&p partial table of contents for Bldg 7: offices of the FBI, Department of Defense, IRS (which contained prodigious amounts of corporate tax fraud, including Enron's), US Secret Service, Securities & Exchange Commission (with more stock fraud records), and Citibank's Salomon Smith Barney, the Mayor's Office of Emergency Management and many other financial institutions.
The well known Kissinger quote about soldiers just leaves one dropped jaw. How is it that we have allowed that creature such power. There he always was, at the top of some invisible pyramid. Could anyone see the trajectory of his rise? What allowed him to conduct human sacrifice on citizens of his own country and others. Yes, they always kill lots of birds with one stone. I also read about important documents being destroyed in Building 7 (pretty sure this was the case w/OKC bombing, apparently documents on Waco were destroyed)

Also, Max Keiser (years ago, can't recall which episode) talked about major financial fraud being run out of Cantor Fitzgerald (can't remember the details, but the idea was they were counterfeiting treasuries in extreme amounts, so all that evidence was also conveniently destroyed). And, of course there was also the targeting of the auditing offices at the pentagon that were looking into the missing $2.3 trillion (more on this here https://vidrebel.wordpress.com/2014/10/13/counterfeiting-trillions-of-dollars-in-us-treasury-bonds-and-other-crimes/ )

Yes, Kissinger is a monster, probably protected b/c he works for the Oligarchy. It seems like all of our war criminals are a protected class. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

vinteuil , April 9, 2017 at 11:00 pm GMT \n
So, LD, it was you.

And all because I made the obvious point that you couldn't tell a flying squirrel from a hole in the ground – that you were a fantasist, & not a reporter. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

Agent76 , April 10, 2017 at 1:11 am GMT \n
100 Words @unit472 I tend to believe my lying eyes and not deranged fanatics. Highrise buildings have not collapsed due to fire because they are not struck by fuel laden projectiles moving at 500 mph and weighing 250 tons. They also have firemen who are still alive and working fire suppression systems trying to put the fire out. All of that fire fighting capability disappeared on 9/11. The structural damage alone from the aircraft impact likely doomed both towers even in the absence of fires. NYPD helicopter pilots reported the top of towers were leaning long before they collapsed owing to the exterior steel walls being the main structural steel support in modern skyscrapers unlike the internal steel boxes used in older skyscrapers that required more steel to be used and limited floor space.

Building 7 is harder to explain but it had been hit with multiton steel beams moving at high speed from the collapse of the twin towers. These would have ripped apart electrical systems and caused fires. As building 7 was the site of the NYC Emergency operations center thousands of gallons of diesel fuel was stored in the building to operate generators and once fire personel were withdrawn nothing was left to prevent fire from reaching those generators and fuel supplies. It is really not hard if you read the right quality and quantity of books. September 07, 2016 September 11, 2001: The 15th Anniversary of the Crime and Cover-up of the Century "What Really Happened"?

WTC Building exploding into fine dust (it is not burning down) by pre-planted explosives in an obvious controlled demolition.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/september-11-2001-the-15th-anniversary-of-the-crime-and-cover-up-of-the-century/5544414 Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

wayfarer , April 10, 2017 at 1:54 am GMT \n
100 Words @daniel le mouche forget 'caucasoid race', etc., all races fall for the manipulators' b.s.
tell me (forget about 'immortal souls'), does living a complete lie--completely clueless--constitute living?
'we will know we have won when everything the public believes is false.'--william casey, ex-cia director I refer to disparate ideologies of the Caucasoid race, as divergent western religions (Islam, Christianity, and Judaism). These are the individual factions waging a "War on Terror" (WoT).

It is infighting within the Caucasoid race, caused by conflicting dogma that originates from "sacred texts" that are not too dissimilar from legacy software, which hasn't been updated for several thousand years.

IMO, the concept of an infinite intelligence/creative force within our universe, is so far beyond the antiquated teachings of the Torah, Bible, and Quran.

In this sense, I believe western civilization is spending its life living a lie, engulfed within ignorance. Read More

dninmore , April 10, 2017 at 1:58 am GMT \n
@Anonymous33 The real debate of the moment is whether Assad "did or didn'". The news is tellin' us he did, the alter-news says well maybe he didn'. Back n' forth it goes, like a little gerbil wheel for your mind. Maybe melting steel caused the gas release? What's for dinner?

The media works as one, developing your rodent like response to ignore the forest for the trees and focus on your next food pellet. So it is with the great sporting event of the 9/11, back n' forth, easy to digest, processed just for you.

Dinh might be a nice guy and believe in what he does, but he's just another narcotics courier, delivering thoughts and ideas that so many of his kind are trained to do, that serve to disable people more effectively than any overt real weapon. Getting any reaction is valuable, the best artists are widely hated, and they love that hate, but I'd say your real enemies (readers) are the ones you least suspect.

They'll call you terrorists, as Chris Hedges is increasingly doing to the people that read his output! Sound familiar? Linh Dinh's "violence" comes from his pen. He openly mocks his own neighbors, you love that hate, and even when he mocks you you'll still believe he offers the "truth" and hang on to every word. Ignore the forest for the trees at your own perile, but the bad guys are the ones you trust. WWII B-52 slams into the Empire State in a fog. No collapse. The twin towers were BUILT to withstand TWO airplane collisions. No complete collapse of a steel superstructure has ever happened before or since 9/11. How stupid, or how connected to Zio-trash are you? Read More

Falsehood , April 10, 2017 at 2:08 am GMT \n
100 Words @Truth I'd agree with that but I still don't quite get the lack of plane wreckage at the Pentagon.

LOL; what is there not to get; IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

I'm still waiting to see ONE photo of airplane wreckage on the pentagon lawn. The FBI just released pictures from the Pentagon crash site showing pieces of aircraft. Unfortunately this threatens years of efforts online to get people to focus, discuss and be monitored as they obsess over an elaborate connivance. A smaller effort in the war on terror programming aimed at the American mind.

What do you think the purpose of spreading nonsense like "a rocket hit the Pentagon" really is? Another fake point of opposition to the "evil Goverment's story" right? The more effective Government designs the attacks, designs the conspiracy chatter, and creates it's own opposition. Read More

Sam J. , April 10, 2017 at 2:37 am GMT \n
500 Words Most of the people here already know the story but to make sure others understand. There is no way possible that building #7 could have fallen the way it did without some type of demolition. I will explain. On 9-11 Building #7 fell the same speed as a rock dropped beside it in free air for roughly 108 feet. This means the building had no resistance to falling except air. Impossible without explosives.

All materials fall the same speed in a gravity field disregarding air friction which I don't thing we need to worry about for a building falling. So the speed of our imaginary rock falling next to the building is just gravity related. The speed of the buildings falling, the exact same as the rock, is just gravity also. This means that there was NOTHING to slow the fall of the building. The density of the material under the imaginary rock falling was air. The building fell the same therefore the density of the material under the building was also air. We know this is not true. Building #7 was not hovering in the air. The lower portions of the building were demoed out from under it.

It's makes NO difference how big the fires were. The buildings density never reached the same value as air! The fires did not boil away the building structure where it was light as air! All the talk about damage, fires, this, that, all bullshit because the building fell with all four corners almost level the same speed as a rock in AIR. If a building falls as fast as a rock and the rock is falling through JUST AIR then the building is falling through JUST AIR also. Simple equivalence. 1=1, 2=2, big rock falling in air=small rock falling in air=building falling in air. One problem is people sometimes believe that a really heavy thing will fall faster than a lighter thing. Not true. Look at this video of the Apollo astronaut dropping a feather and a hammer on the Moon. They land at the same time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C5_dOEyAfk

This is one of the best videos I've seen on the building #1 and #2. It's by a Mechanical Engineer. It's very interesting by itself even if you don't believe in any conspiracy, it's shows the towers, how they're designed and there's no hold your breath type speculation stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABuCO5ifeIE

The was a person in the building when some explosions happened. Barry Jennings a Emergency Management Worker who was in the building by accident and testified on tape the day it happened and later to a separate film crew. My guess is building 7 was supposed to come down at the same time the North tower fell and it's fall would covered by the dust plum or just in the general confusion but it didn't. Somebody screwed up. Building 7′s fall is the single best piece of information on 9-11 being a false flag and they know it. There's no way possible to twist the fall of this building into any reality without there being some demo or whatever to destroy the bottom out from under it. Read More

NoseytheDuke , April 10, 2017 at 3:52 am GMT \n
@Wolfred I used to have respect for you Linh Dinh, but no more.

You have just outed yourself as just another wacko nutjob. Any sound of dripping you may hear would more likely be that of a dripping tap than of Linh Dinh weeping at the thought of losing the respect of a nimrod such as the one who wrote the post I'm responding to. Seriously. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

Truth , April 10, 2017 at 3:57 am GMT \n
@Falsehood The FBI just released pictures from the Pentagon crash site showing pieces of aircraft. Unfortunately this threatens years of efforts online to get people to focus, discuss and be monitored as they obsess over an elaborate connivance. A smaller effort in the war on terror programming aimed at the American mind.

What do you think the purpose of spreading nonsense like "a rocket hit the Pentagon" really is? Another fake point of opposition to the "evil Goverment's story" right? The more effective Government designs the attacks, designs the conspiracy chatter, and creates it's own opposition. Please post away, my friend, I'd love to see one. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

2stateshmoostate , April 10, 2017 at 4:01 am GMT \n
200 Words Excellent article.
I think there are only two way we might end control of the US government by the traitors who perpetrated 911.
One is to expose them at their most vulnerable point and that is 911. That attack doesn't hold up to reason. There's an endless of inconsistencies and contradictions that I won't go into here. How to get the attention of the American people? I don't know. I don't understand why the leaders adversarial states don't bring up the obvious fact that 911 was a false flag operation. This in order to DE-legitimize or create suspicion towards the US government. This is the kind of story I would think RT news would publish, and maybe they will if hostilities escalate between Russia and the US.
The other way we might get rid of these traitors is how Argentina got rid of the Generals; A massive military defeat that causes even the mindless lumps that are most of Americans to set up and take notice.
Ultimately these traitors will go, it's only a question of when and how much damage they do in the mean time.
Also I want to congratulate Mr. Dinh on his accurate prediction in a previous article that Trump was just another neocon puppet. I always agreed with that, because the scum that did 911 were not about to let anyone they don't control, get elected president of the US. Read More
2stateshmoostate , April 10, 2017 at 4:06 am GMT \n
@Shouting Thomas You're using Louis Farrakhan as a go to source?

You just trashed yourself. If you want to hear the truth about the US don't listen to Americas friends, listen to what our enemies and critics have to say. This is just plain common sense. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

NoseytheDuke , April 10, 2017 at 4:08 am GMT \n
100 Words @Falsehood The FBI just released pictures from the Pentagon crash site showing pieces of aircraft. Unfortunately this threatens years of efforts online to get people to focus, discuss and be monitored as they obsess over an elaborate connivance. A smaller effort in the war on terror programming aimed at the American mind.

What do you think the purpose of spreading nonsense like "a rocket hit the Pentagon" really is? Another fake point of opposition to the "evil Goverment's story" right? The more effective Government designs the attacks, designs the conspiracy chatter, and creates it's own opposition. How does a commercial passenger plane crash into a building and leave a hole about one third the size of the area of itself? How does a large, hollow, thin-skinned, alloy fuselage manage to penetrate several very thick walls all the way through to the third ring of the Pentagon?

A simple answer to both questions is, they don't. Both explanations are impossible. Pictures taken immediately afterwards are available on the web so you can see for yourself, and why has it taken you so long to look into this? Don't you care at all about the USA or are you just trolling? Read More

2stateshmoostate , April 10, 2017 at 4:27 am GMT \n
@Anonymous33 The real debate of the moment is whether Assad "did or didn'". The news is tellin' us he did, the alter-news says well maybe he didn'. Back n' forth it goes, like a little gerbil wheel for your mind. Maybe melting steel caused the gas release? What's for dinner?

The media works as one, developing your rodent like response to ignore the forest for the trees and focus on your next food pellet. So it is with the great sporting event of the 9/11, back n' forth, easy to digest, processed just for you.

Dinh might be a nice guy and believe in what he does, but he's just another narcotics courier, delivering thoughts and ideas that so many of his kind are trained to do, that serve to disable people more effectively than any overt real weapon. Getting any reaction is valuable, the best artists are widely hated, and they love that hate, but I'd say your real enemies (readers) are the ones you least suspect.

They'll call you terrorists, as Chris Hedges is increasingly doing to the people that read his output! Sound familiar? Linh Dinh's "violence" comes from his pen. He openly mocks his own neighbors, you love that hate, and even when he mocks you you'll still believe he offers the "truth" and hang on to every word. Ignore the forest for the trees at your own perile, but the bad guys are the ones you trust. You are either computer-bot writing this drivel or a paid troll. Either way your just wasting time. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

Truth , April 10, 2017 at 4:35 am GMT \n
@NoseytheDuke How does a commercial passenger plane crash into a building and leave a hole about one third the size of the area of itself? How does a large, hollow, thin-skinned, alloy fuselage manage to penetrate several very thick walls all the way through to the third ring of the Pentagon?

A simple answer to both questions is, they don't. Both explanations are impossible. Pictures taken immediately afterwards are available on the web so you can see for yourself, and why has it taken you so long to look into this? Don't you care at all about the USA or are you just trolling? He's a Government-sanctioned cointelpro shill. If this is false, the truth is even worse. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

animalogic , April 10, 2017 at 5:05 am GMT \n
@dninmore This answer is simple. The Zionists were sending their "compatriots" - by force - to Palestine to populate their new illegitimate state - which is now a rogue, Apartheid one. The whole point of Zionism was to take over the world (their words, not mine), create a Jewish state in Palestine (not their first or second choice, btw), by butchering the native population - ethnic cleansing - to create the center for their NWO. They were even happy to blow up about 2,000 of their "compatriots" in a false flag on the ship Patria docked in port at Haifa to blame on the Brits - typical, yes? I'm sure you've heard of their policy to strip Jewish orphans from their European homes - at gun-point - to bring them to Palestine for the soon-to-be IDF model of violent indoctrination of their youth against Palestinians.

It's true Americans, and most of the world, wanted nothing to do with the parasitic Zionists. The fact that they were able to create both WWI and II, the UN, get their resolution passed and invade Palestine is a testament to how high they had infiltrated the US and GB governments. Of course, it helps when you have Chief SC Justice Brandeis and Franfurter, legislating from the court on behalf of the Zionists and all of the resources of the Rothchild gangsters.

Currently, 90% of the most powerful individuals in the US government, media and banks are Ashkenazy Jews - yet are only 2% of the US population and Ashkenazy are only 4% of that. Think about it.

As far as "extermination camps" go, the only ones I'm aware of (WWII) were created after the war by Eisenhower to finish what the Allies had begun. The only true "Holocaust" (destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, especially caused by fire or nuclear war), was caused by the Allies on the German people in the horrific, unstoppable bombardments of phosphorous all over that country. These facts are never shown in the media, history education or Hollywood. I wonder why that is? Just a question: my understanding is that many 100,000′s Jew's were shot in Russia, Ukraine etc in 41-42′ (einstazgruppen [sp ?]) Is this still historically accurate or not ? Read More

animalogic , April 10, 2017 at 5:18 am GMT \n
100 Words @dninmore WWII B-52 slams into the Empire State in a fog. No collapse. The twin towers were BUILT to withstand TWO airplane collisions. No complete collapse of a steel superstructure has ever happened before or since 9/11. How stupid, or how connected to Zio-trash are you? Excuse me for being pedantic (b/c your point is good) but I think it was a B 25 Mitchel bomber that flew into the Empire State. B 52′s were at least a decade later. (Although there is some size difference btwn WW II bombers & modern jetliners: not sure whether any size difference is relevant tho). Read More
Redpill , April 10, 2017 at 6:43 am GMT \n
@Anonymouse Doesn't the mysterious collapse of Building 7 suggest no conspiracy. As the building was empty undergoing a rebuild, what would be the point of destroying it?

From the Zionists making Pearl Harbor happen to their race being the maleficient agent directing all of human history is not that much of a leap. In sober historical fact, Zionists in 1941 in Palestine under the English mandate were not remotely in a position of power. Had they the power, they might have saved their compatriots in Europe by orchestrating massive emigration, which in fact was not permitted by the sovereign nations that might have accepted them. Of course, you can always factor in that inconvenient fact into the conspiracy theory. No, the classic controlled demolition style of WTC7′s collapse suggests exactly the opposite. Only explosives canmake a building fall that way, and only insiders could have had the time and access necessary to rig the building. Don't be obtuse. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

utu , April 10, 2017 at 6:51 am GMT \n
100 Words @2stateshmoostate Excellent article.
I think there are only two way we might end control of the US government by the traitors who perpetrated 911.
One is to expose them at their most vulnerable point and that is 911. That attack doesn't hold up to reason. There's an endless of inconsistencies and contradictions that I won't go into here. How to get the attention of the American people? I don't know. I don't understand why the leaders adversarial states don't bring up the obvious fact that 911 was a false flag operation. This in order to DE-legitimize or create suspicion towards the US government. This is the kind of story I would think RT news would publish, and maybe they will if hostilities escalate between Russia and the US.
The other way we might get rid of these traitors is how Argentina got rid of the Generals; A massive military defeat that causes even the mindless lumps that are most of Americans to set up and take notice.
Ultimately these traitors will go, it's only a question of when and how much damage they do in the mean time.
Also I want to congratulate Mr. Dinh on his accurate prediction in a previous article that Trump was just another neocon puppet. I always agreed with that, because the scum that did 911 were not about to let anyone they don't control, get elected president of the US.

"I don't understand why the leaders adversarial states don't bring up the obvious fact that 911 was a false flag operation. "

Putin's FSB did false flag bombings of apartment buildings in Russia to start the 2nd war in Chechnya in 1999.

It is possible that the secret agencies that do such things exchange notes among themselves and can be even subcontracted. Read More

Greg Bacon , Website April 10, 2017 at 10:25 am GMT \n
200 Words I too am a retired career Fire Lieutenant/EMT that fought structure fires as a firefighter, acting Lieutenant, Lieutenant and twice, as Incident Commander, overseeing the entire op. I also have over 400 hours of college level firefighting credit from our State university's Fire School.

I've fought fires in a variety of buildings, including hi-rises and have seen building collapses, mostly due to the tremendous amount of water applied to the building, which increased the weight beyond the architects limits.
When buildings fall, they drop down in a random, haphazard manner, they don't explode and send a plume of heated smoke, gases and debris 500′ into the air and rumbling down NYC streets for blocks and blocks.

To those who still cling to the lies, tell me this: What kind of building 'collapse' makes nearly 1,000 WTC victims bodies explode into bits so small, they had to use DNA testing on bone fragments the size of a fingernail?
And what kind of building collapse causes generates enough force to lob a 20 ton steel beam over 350′ and still have enough force left over to have the beam impale itself in the Deutsche Bank building?

9/11 was an Israeli masterminded False Flag with help from traitors in the WH, the Pentagon, CIA, FBA and NSA. With generous help from the Lying MSM.

https://wikispooks.com/wiki/9-11/Israel_did_it

Until we realize that, these endless 'Wars for Wall Street and Israel' will go on until the USA collapses from financial, physical and moral exhaustion. Read More Agree: Rurik

dninmore , April 10, 2017 at 12:01 pm GMT \n
100 Words @animalogic Excuse me for being pedantic (b/c your point is good) but I think it was a B 25 Mitchel bomber that flew into the Empire State. B 52's were at least a decade later. (Although there is some size difference btwn WW II bombers & modern jetliners: not sure whether any size difference is relevant tho). Thank you. Lol. Dyslexia. Yes, you are correct. B25 carried about 1,000 gallons of fuel, but could use an auxiliary tank to carry almost 1,500 gallons.

My point is that, regardless of the amount of fuel, we know most of it burns off in the initial explosion and the rest burns off in a few minutes.

The firefighters who arrived and witnessed the impact floors said they could knock down the fires with 2 or 3 lines – and they had lots of experience fighting fires in the towers.

To the idea that the fires were burning so hot to melt steel – a physical impossibility – why were so many people seen 40 minutes after, clinging to the structure at the windows? They should have been incinerated, but weren't. Read More

dninmore , April 10, 2017 at 12:12 pm GMT \n
@animalogic Just a question: my understanding is that many 100,000's Jew's were shot in Russia, Ukraine etc in 41-42' (einstazgruppen [sp ?]) Is this still historically accurate or not ? Russian side of things is not where my focus has been. I'm talking towards the 6million, extermination policy, gas chamber lies. It's a multi-billion dollar industry that needs to go away. The world doesn't need to be "educated" by Jews about suffering or man's inhumanity. Read More Agree: anarchyst
Agent76 , April 10, 2017 at 12:54 pm GMT \n
@Amanda Thanks for linking to James Corbett's video on 9/11--unfortunately, it should have many more views View my other post's on this topic especially the one Rudy Giuliani and be prepared to have your socks blown off. Read More
animalogic , April 10, 2017 at 1:07 pm GMT \n
@dninmore Russian side of things is not where my focus has been. I'm talking towards the 6million, extermination policy, gas chamber lies. It's a multi-billion dollar industry that needs to go away. The world doesn't need to be "educated" by Jews about suffering or man's inhumanity. I understand that. I am open minded. But, I have been lead to believe that the shooting of Jew's was a considerable % of the 6 MIL. Further, the "camps" we're a response to the expense & general messiness of mass shooting. Read More
dninmore , April 10, 2017 at 2:38 pm GMT \n
100 Words Nope. I won't go there. Any Jews shot in Russia have NOTHING to do with the 6 million lie I have been told all of my life. It has only been "6 million Jews gassed to death in Nazi death camps". It never was "most of them were shot in Russia". Well, until after the Ernst Zundel trial of 1985 in Toronto, which prompted Auschwitz to drop their "official" numbers down by 3 million – and yet, we still hear about 6 million. Then we begin to hear about shootings, mobile van gassings and mass grave pit burning, which is all absurd and mathematically impossible. Two questions for you: Where are the 6 million bodies that were gassed in Nazi camps?, and How did the Nazi's dispose of the bodies without putting themselves in grave jeopardy – due to the extremely toxic effects of Zyklon-B? Read More Agree: anarchyst Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
dninmore , April 10, 2017 at 2:44 pm GMT \n
@Sam J. Most of the people here already know the story but to make sure others understand. There is no way possible that building #7 could have fallen the way it did without some type of demolition. I will explain. On 9-11 Building #7 fell the same speed as a rock dropped beside it in free air for roughly 108 feet. This means the building had no resistance to falling except air. Impossible without explosives.

All materials fall the same speed in a gravity field disregarding air friction which I don't thing we need to worry about for a building falling. So the speed of our imaginary rock falling next to the building is just gravity related. The speed of the buildings falling, the exact same as the rock, is just gravity also. This means that there was NOTHING to slow the fall of the building. The density of the material under the imaginary rock falling was air. The building fell the same therefore the density of the material under the building was also air. We know this is not true. Building #7 was not hovering in the air. The lower portions of the building were demoed out from under it.

It's makes NO difference how big the fires were. The buildings density never reached the same value as air! The fires did not boil away the building structure where it was light as air! All the talk about damage, fires, this, that, all bullshit because the building fell with all four corners almost level the same speed as a rock in AIR. If a building falls as fast as a rock and the rock is falling through JUST AIR then the building is falling through JUST AIR also. Simple equivalence. 1=1, 2=2, big rock falling in air=small rock falling in air=building falling in air. One problem is people sometimes believe that a really heavy thing will fall faster than a lighter thing. Not true. Look at this video of the Apollo astronaut dropping a feather and a hammer on the Moon. They land at the same time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C5_dOEyAfk

This is one of the best videos I've seen on the building #1 and #2. It's by a Mechanical Engineer. It's very interesting by itself even if you don't believe in any conspiracy, it's shows the towers, how they're designed and there's no hold your breath type speculation stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABuCO5ifeIE

The was a person in the building when some explosions happened. Barry Jennings a Emergency Management Worker who was in the building by accident and testified on tape the day it happened and later to a separate film crew. My guess is building 7 was supposed to come down at the same time the North tower fell and it's fall would covered by the dust plum or just in the general confusion but it didn't. Somebody screwed up. Building 7's fall is the single best piece of information on 9-11 being a false flag and they know it. There's no way possible to twist the fall of this building into any reality without there being some demo or whatever to destroy the bottom out from under it. I always thought UA Flight 93 was supposed to hit Bldg 7. No evidence, just a hunch. Read More

2stateshmoostate , April 10, 2017 at 2:50 pm GMT \n
100 Words @utu

"I don't understand why the leaders adversarial states don't bring up the obvious fact that 911 was a false flag operation. "
Putin's FSB did false flag bombings of apartment buildings in Russia to start the 2nd war in Chechnya in 1999.

It is possible that the secret agencies that do such things exchange notes among themselves and can be even subcontracted. I remember that and I came to the same conclusion. We're definitely in a pretty screwed up world.
I do remember Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran was the only government leader who had the guts to speak the truth about 911. I'm sure that's one of the reasons he was so hated by the Israeli controlled MSM Read More Agree: Amanda Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

Amanda , April 10, 2017 at 3:40 pm GMT \n
I think most on this thread have probably researched 9/11 a great deal, but in case some are new here, I'll post a couple of things I found especially helpful:

Missing Links documentary- explores the Zionist role in 9/11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qFa9_JjlYc

https://wikispooks.com/wiki/9-11/Israel_did_it Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

Amanda , April 10, 2017 at 3:50 pm GMT \n
100 Words @Agent76 View my other post's on this topic especially the one Rudy Giuliani and be prepared to have your socks blown off. I'll be sure to do so. I've actually started delving back into 911 again, as I noticed that Corbett report has some videos up that I missed (especially one on the missing trillions, and one on missing gold). I think he also has some videos on individual 9/11 criminals, including Rudy Giuliani Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
Talha , April 10, 2017 at 4:15 pm GMT \n
@Greg Bacon I too am a retired career Fire Lieutenant/EMT that fought structure fires as a firefighter, acting Lieutenant, Lieutenant and twice, as Incident Commander, overseeing the entire op. I also have over 400 hours of college level firefighting credit from our State university's Fire School.

I've fought fires in a variety of buildings, including hi-rises and have seen building collapses, mostly due to the tremendous amount of water applied to the building, which increased the weight beyond the architects limits.
When buildings fall, they drop down in a random, haphazard manner, they don't explode and send a plume of heated smoke, gases and debris 500' into the air and rumbling down NYC streets for blocks and blocks.

To those who still cling to the lies, tell me this: What kind of building 'collapse' makes nearly 1,000 WTC victims bodies explode into bits so small, they had to use DNA testing on bone fragments the size of a fingernail?
And what kind of building collapse causes generates enough force to lob a 20 ton steel beam over 350' and still have enough force left over to have the beam impale itself in the Deutsche Bank building?

9/11 was an Israeli masterminded False Flag with help from traitors in the WH, the Pentagon, CIA, FBA and NSA. With generous help from the Lying MSM.

https://wikispooks.com/wiki/9-11/Israel_did_it

Until we realize that, these endless 'Wars for Wall Street and Israel' will go on until the USA collapses from financial, physical and moral exhaustion. Hey GB,

Wow! Great post – I love it when commentators add some real value to the discussion based on their individual expertise or background. Much appreciated!

I had no clue about that beam nor the condition of the bodies.

Peace. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

Anonymouse , April 10, 2017 at 4:17 pm GMT \n
200 Words @dninmore This answer is simple. The Zionists were sending their "compatriots" - by force - to Palestine to populate their new illegitimate state - which is now a rogue, Apartheid one. The whole point of Zionism was to take over the world (their words, not mine), create a Jewish state in Palestine (not their first or second choice, btw), by butchering the native population - ethnic cleansing - to create the center for their NWO. They were even happy to blow up about 2,000 of their "compatriots" in a false flag on the ship Patria docked in port at Haifa to blame on the Brits - typical, yes? I'm sure you've heard of their policy to strip Jewish orphans from their European homes - at gun-point - to bring them to Palestine for the soon-to-be IDF model of violent indoctrination of their youth against Palestinians.

It's true Americans, and most of the world, wanted nothing to do with the parasitic Zionists. The fact that they were able to create both WWI and II, the UN, get their resolution passed and invade Palestine is a testament to how high they had infiltrated the US and GB governments. Of course, it helps when you have Chief SC Justice Brandeis and Franfurter, legislating from the court on behalf of the Zionists and all of the resources of the Rothchild gangsters.

Currently, 90% of the most powerful individuals in the US government, media and banks are Ashkenazy Jews - yet are only 2% of the US population and Ashkenazy are only 4% of that. Think about it.

As far as "extermination camps" go, the only ones I'm aware of (WWII) were created after the war by Eisenhower to finish what the Allies had begun. The only true "Holocaust" (destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, especially caused by fire or nuclear war), was caused by the Allies on the German people in the horrific, unstoppable bombardments of phosphorous all over that country. These facts are never shown in the media, history education or Hollywood. I wonder why that is? The jewish population throughout Europe before WW II was ~11 million according to the censuses of such countries as England, France, Germany, Scandinavia, Belgium, Netherlands, Italy, Soviet Union, etc conducted in those years. In 1948 the jewish population of Palestine was ~500,000 according to the census of the Brits who ruled that country. All of these figures may be confirmed without great research efforts.

On another related subject, the jews in Israel after the instauration of their polity in 1948 waxed mightily. The lowly jews and court jews of recent history were replaced by human beings with agency, still I would aver without possessing great geopolitical might. And have elicited world-wide envious hate. With their top-notch military + hundreds of nuclear weapons + 5 state-of-the art submarines, they are in a better position to withstand their enemies. The implacable hatred of the Moslems, so far impotent, is also a given. Stay tuned and gai gesunt! Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

Obscured American: Rudy Dent a 9-11 First Responder -[Because suing US for 9-11 is still the key to justice & liberty!] | The Paradise Post - REAL World News From Taiwan , April 10, 2017 at 4:30 pm GMT \n
[ ] Source [ ] Read More
Carlton Meyer , Website April 10, 2017 at 5:30 pm GMT \n
300 Words Over the years, I've read debates and seen videos with hundreds of convincing reasons why the official 9-11 story is false. Most Americans are too lazy or spineless to read though any of these arguments. Here is the simplest one for simpletons.

The Pentagon is one of the most secure buildings in the USA, with dozens of security cameras covering every angle. There are also many private businesses nearby with security cameras, and tourists with camcorders and cameras. Crime is high in Washington DC so security cameras are common. If the Pentagon attack story is true, why can't the government provide a single clear videotape or picture of the American airliner approaching or hitting the Pentagon? They reluctantly released a couple of edited tapes of a fuzzy flash explosion and smoke, but no visual proof of an American Airlines airliner in flight.

Does anyone want to play devil's advocate and post a possible excuse for this?

Recall the four security cameras pointing at the 1995 OKC bombing stopped working shortly before the bombing and resumed after the explosion, according to the FBI, which refused to release them for years. For those who like video, the testimony of Secretary Mineta about 9-11 is disturbing yet little discussed. He was sitting with Cheney as a military officer provided updates on the airplane heading toward the Pentagon, and there was some "standing order" that had been made. Nevertheless, none of the Pentagon's air defense systems fired at the airliner and again, no one took pictures or videotaped the incoming aircraft! Did all the security cameras "stop working" too?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDfdOwt2v3Y Read More Agree: L.K

dninmore , April 10, 2017 at 5:40 pm GMT \n
300 Words http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000636#graph3

Yes, Jews population increased during WWII in Europe, N. America and the World. Where, exactly, does the "6 million" come from – other than the cabala?

They did have "great geopolitical might". Look what they were able to accomplish, albeit by deceit and terrorism.

The "envious hate" you refer to is laughable – there's no envy for what the Jews have done and continue to do.

"With their top-notch military + hundreds of nuclear weapons + 5 state-of-the art submarines, they are in a better position to withstand their enemies."

I'd love to see this "top-notch military" (who runs away from rock-throwing children or shoots them) take on a real enemy in a real ground war – not a terrorist action, or one where they just drop bombs. All of America's wars have been fought overseas. I'd like to see the Jews try that – just once.

The nuclear arsenal (technology/uranium, etc.) was stolen from the US and has never been inspected – but they bitch and moan about Iran and N. Korea. (Couldn't be that those two countries have refused the Rothschild banking "system", could it?)

"The implacable hatred of the Moslems, so far impotent, is also a given."

If it wasn't for the Jews, and what they have done in Palestine and the Middle East (now the world), there wouldn't be a problem. Jews, Christians and Muslims lived in relative peace for a century before that.

The Jews have no tolerance for any race beyond their self-proclaimed "master" race and any Jew who supports the illegitimate Apartheid rogue state, is more the problem than the Nutty-Yahoos. It is illegal to do business with any Apartheid state. This needs to be enforced, instead of running around the world passing legislation to make it a crime – along with any criticism of the hollow cost. Read More Agree: anarchyst

anarchyst , April 10, 2017 at 6:04 pm GMT \n
100 Words @dninmore http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000636#graph3

Yes, Jews population increased during WWII in Europe, N. America and the World. Where, exactly, does the "6 million" come from - other than the cabala?

They did have "great geopolitical might". Look what they were able to accomplish, albeit by deceit and terrorism.

The "envious hate" you refer to is laughable - there's no envy for what the Jews have done and continue to do.

"With their top-notch military + hundreds of nuclear weapons + 5 state-of-the art submarines, they are in a better position to withstand their enemies."

I'd love to see this "top-notch military" (who runs away from rock-throwing children or shoots them) take on a real enemy in a real ground war - not a terrorist action, or one where they just drop bombs. All of America's wars have been fought overseas. I'd like to see the Jews try that - just once.

The nuclear arsenal (technology/uranium, etc.) was stolen from the US and has never been inspected - but they bitch and moan about Iran and N. Korea. (Couldn't be that those two countries have refused the Rothschild banking "system", could it?)

"The implacable hatred of the Moslems, so far impotent, is also a given."

If it wasn't for the Jews, and what they have done in Palestine and the Middle East (now the world), there wouldn't be a problem. Jews, Christians and Muslims lived in relative peace for a century before that.

The Jews have no tolerance for any race beyond their self-proclaimed "master" race and any Jew who supports the illegitimate Apartheid rogue state, is more the problem than the Nutty-Yahoos. It is illegal to do business with any Apartheid state. This needs to be enforced, instead of running around the world passing legislation to make it a crime - along with any criticism of the hollow cost. Israel has always refused inspection of its nuclear arsenal because it would not be able to account for all of them. You see, Israel's "Samson Option" requires it to have its nukes pre-positioned all around the world, ready for use. According to the Samson option, Israel promises to nuke a European or American city if it is "attacked". Since Israel has no "delivery system" (until recently) what better way to be "prepared" than to have them already in place? As Israel's spy system (Mossad) is second to none, it would be relatively easy to smuggle them into the various countries (with hasbara help).
THIS is the major reason why Israel refuses international inspection of its nukes Read More

dninmore , April 10, 2017 at 6:19 pm GMT \n
@anarchyst Israel has always refused inspection of its nuclear arsenal because it would not be able to account for all of them. You see, Israel's "Samson Option" requires it to have its nukes pre-positioned all around the world, ready for use. According to the Samson option, Israel promises to nuke a European or American city if it is "attacked". Since Israel has no "delivery system" (until recently) what better way to be "prepared" than to have them already in place? As Israel's spy system (Mossad) is second to none, it would be relatively easy to smuggle them into the various countries (with hasbara help).
THIS is the major reason why Israel refuses international inspection of its nukes... Thank you for that. That is news to me and I will research the topic. I must say, I never understood from day one why 9/11 was referred to as "ground zero" – unless it was truth flaunted out in the open. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
anarchyst , April 10, 2017 at 6:37 pm GMT \n
@Carlton Meyer Over the years, I've read debates and seen videos with hundreds of convincing reasons why the official 9-11 story is false. Most Americans are too lazy or spineless to read though any of these arguments. Here is the simplest one for simpletons.

The Pentagon is one of the most secure buildings in the USA, with dozens of security cameras covering every angle. There are also many private businesses nearby with security cameras, and tourists with camcorders and cameras. Crime is high in Washington DC so security cameras are common. If the Pentagon attack story is true, why can't the government provide a single clear videotape or picture of the American airliner approaching or hitting the Pentagon? They reluctantly released a couple of edited tapes of a fuzzy flash explosion and smoke, but no visual proof of an American Airlines airliner in flight.

Does anyone want to play devil's advocate and post a possible excuse for this?

Recall the four security cameras pointing at the 1995 OKC bombing stopped working shortly before the bombing and resumed after the explosion, according to the FBI, which refused to release them for years. For those who like video, the testimony of Secretary Mineta about 9-11 is disturbing yet little discussed. He was sitting with Cheney as a military officer provided updates on the airplane heading toward the Pentagon, and there was some "standing order" that had been made. Nevertheless, none of the Pentagon's air defense systems fired at the airliner and again, no one took pictures or videotaped the incoming aircraft! Did all the security cameras "stop working" too?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDfdOwt2v3Y Not only that, but the ATF and FBI agents were told to stay home that day there was an article in the Chicago Tribune on the Sunday following the blast that stated as such Read More

Si1ver1ock , April 10, 2017 at 6:47 pm GMT \n
When you see something obviously wrong and the media won't cover it, you start to wonder what else they are lying about.

Rudy Dent is a true hero.

I support a real forensic/criminal investigation of 911. Read More

Coddingtons Corner: Obscured American – Rudy Dent a 9-11 First Responder | R3publicans , April 10, 2017 at 7:36 pm GMT \n
[ ] Read further at http://www.unz.com/ldinh/obscured-american-rudy-dent-a-9-11-first-responder/ [ ] Read More
Bill Jones , April 10, 2017 at 11:32 pm GMT \n
@dninmore Typical response from a Hasbara. No supporting evidence to refute the facts, so you go to ad hominem. The bint on the BBC world service TV announcing the collapse of WTC7 twenty minutes before it happened is usually classified as a clue by the non-insane. Read More
dninmore , April 11, 2017 at 12:19 am GMT \n
100 Words @Bill Jones The bint on the BBC world service TV announcing the collapse of WTC7 twenty minutes before it happened is usually classified as a clue by the non-insane. Right. Thank you. Dan Rather's live comment that "it looks like one of those demolitions you see" never is mentioned, again, despite all of the witness testimony to "multiple explosions". Nothing to see here. Not one day spent in a court of law over the greatest crime on American soil. Read More
daniel le mouche , April 11, 2017 at 12:23 am GMT \n
300 Words @wayfarer I refer to disparate ideologies of the Caucasoid race, as divergent western religions (Islam, Christianity, and Judaism). These are the individual factions waging a "War on Terror" (WoT).

It is infighting within the Caucasoid race, caused by conflicting dogma that originates from "sacred texts" that are not too dissimilar from legacy software, which hasn't been updated for several thousand years.

IMO, the concept of an infinite intelligence/creative force within our universe, is so far beyond the antiquated teachings of the Torah, Bible, and Quran.

In this sense, I believe western civilization is spending its life living a lie, engulfed within ignorance. 'It is infighting within the Caucasoid race, caused by conflicting dogma that originates from "sacred texts" that are not too dissimilar from legacy software, which hasn't been updated for several thousand years.'

As I said above, the Caucasoid race isn't the world's great problem. You put Muslims in this Caucasoid race of yours. This would include Pakistanis, Indonesians, Filipinos, Malaysians, many African nations, and other scattered peoples from eastern Europe to Russia to China to the United States.
Let's move on to Christians. They would include the oldest sects of Copts in Egypt, as well as newcomers like Koreans, as well as large populations in North and South America.
As for legacy software, I don't know what that is.

But your comment reminds me of a video I watched recently with some very angry, hate-filled black American going on about the 'caucasoid ape man'. Check it out, if you didn't make it yourself.

'IMO, the concept of an infinite intelligence/creative force within our universe, is so far beyond the antiquated teachings of the Torah, Bible, and Quran.'

Agreed, and I don't subscribe to any of the above. Nor do I subscribe to much else, e.g. Buddhism, Shinto, Hinduism, African tribal religions, American Indian religions. There may be infinite wisdom and intelligence, there may not be. Some religions appear to be gentler and nicer and better than others–Jainism comes to mind. People are certainly wacky, certainly interesting too. The depths as well as strangeness of human religion is staggering. Catholicism alone probably takes the cake in both those categories.
As for living a lie, I'm not sure. People strive for the truth, at least a certain percentage do–and no where more than in the west, it seems to me. We're fed nothing but lies by our rulers, but again, this goes for all countries and peoples, at least in the modern world. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

daniel le mouche , April 11, 2017 at 12:31 am GMT \n
100 Words @Falsehood The FBI just released pictures from the Pentagon crash site showing pieces of aircraft. Unfortunately this threatens years of efforts online to get people to focus, discuss and be monitored as they obsess over an elaborate connivance. A smaller effort in the war on terror programming aimed at the American mind.

What do you think the purpose of spreading nonsense like "a rocket hit the Pentagon" really is? Another fake point of opposition to the "evil Goverment's story" right? The more effective Government designs the attacks, designs the conspiracy chatter, and creates it's own opposition. 'The more effective Government designs the attacks, designs the conspiracy chatter, and creates it's own opposition.'

Yes, and it does of course do that. It leaves no stone unturned. And yet

'What do you think the purpose of spreading nonsense like "a rocket hit the Pentagon" really is?'

You seems to be a bit too clever to believe the incredibly b.s. govt. story. Downright Chomskyesque. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

NoseytheDuke , April 11, 2017 at 12:33 am GMT \n
100 Words @2stateshmoostate Excellent article.
I think there are only two way we might end control of the US government by the traitors who perpetrated 911.
One is to expose them at their most vulnerable point and that is 911. That attack doesn't hold up to reason. There's an endless of inconsistencies and contradictions that I won't go into here. How to get the attention of the American people? I don't know. I don't understand why the leaders adversarial states don't bring up the obvious fact that 911 was a false flag operation. This in order to DE-legitimize or create suspicion towards the US government. This is the kind of story I would think RT news would publish, and maybe they will if hostilities escalate between Russia and the US.
The other way we might get rid of these traitors is how Argentina got rid of the Generals; A massive military defeat that causes even the mindless lumps that are most of Americans to set up and take notice.
Ultimately these traitors will go, it's only a question of when and how much damage they do in the mean time.
Also I want to congratulate Mr. Dinh on his accurate prediction in a previous article that Trump was just another neocon puppet. I always agreed with that, because the scum that did 911 were not about to let anyone they don't control, get elected president of the US. Back to basics, handbills and posters pasted at stations, train and bus windows, at busy intersections, college notice boards, shopping centres etc. Stencils with succinct slogans can be distributed via websites and blogs then sprayed on to sidewalks especially busy intersections. Hard-to-remove bumper stickers can be affixed to buses, taxis and commercial vehicles. It won't happen overnight but as the awareness grows so the tipping point becomes ever closer. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
dninmore , April 11, 2017 at 12:39 am GMT \n
@anarchyst Not only that, but the ATF and FBI agents were told to stay home that day...there was an article in the Chicago Tribune on the Sunday following the blast that stated as such... Don't forget about Odigo and who else didn't show up that day Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
NoseytheDuke , April 11, 2017 at 12:39 am GMT \n
@dninmore Thank you. Lol. Dyslexia. Yes, you are correct. B25 carried about 1,000 gallons of fuel, but could use an auxiliary tank to carry almost 1,500 gallons.

My point is that, regardless of the amount of fuel, we know most of it burns off in the initial explosion and the rest burns off in a few minutes.

The firefighters who arrived and witnessed the impact floors said they could knock down the fires with 2 or 3 lines - and they had lots of experience fighting fires in the towers.

To the idea that the fires were burning so hot to melt steel - a physical impossibility - why were so many people seen 40 minutes after, clinging to the structure at the windows? They should have been incinerated, but weren't. B25 burned petrol (gasoline) whilst the jets that struck the towers burned a far less flammable jet fuel (refined kerosine). Read More

daniel le mouche , April 11, 2017 at 12:39 am GMT \n
100 Words @Sam J. Most of the people here already know the story but to make sure others understand. There is no way possible that building #7 could have fallen the way it did without some type of demolition. I will explain. On 9-11 Building #7 fell the same speed as a rock dropped beside it in free air for roughly 108 feet. This means the building had no resistance to falling except air. Impossible without explosives.

All materials fall the same speed in a gravity field disregarding air friction which I don't thing we need to worry about for a building falling. So the speed of our imaginary rock falling next to the building is just gravity related. The speed of the buildings falling, the exact same as the rock, is just gravity also. This means that there was NOTHING to slow the fall of the building. The density of the material under the imaginary rock falling was air. The building fell the same therefore the density of the material under the building was also air. We know this is not true. Building #7 was not hovering in the air. The lower portions of the building were demoed out from under it.

It's makes NO difference how big the fires were. The buildings density never reached the same value as air! The fires did not boil away the building structure where it was light as air! All the talk about damage, fires, this, that, all bullshit because the building fell with all four corners almost level the same speed as a rock in AIR. If a building falls as fast as a rock and the rock is falling through JUST AIR then the building is falling through JUST AIR also. Simple equivalence. 1=1, 2=2, big rock falling in air=small rock falling in air=building falling in air. One problem is people sometimes believe that a really heavy thing will fall faster than a lighter thing. Not true. Look at this video of the Apollo astronaut dropping a feather and a hammer on the Moon. They land at the same time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C5_dOEyAfk

This is one of the best videos I've seen on the building #1 and #2. It's by a Mechanical Engineer. It's very interesting by itself even if you don't believe in any conspiracy, it's shows the towers, how they're designed and there's no hold your breath type speculation stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABuCO5ifeIE

The was a person in the building when some explosions happened. Barry Jennings a Emergency Management Worker who was in the building by accident and testified on tape the day it happened and later to a separate film crew. My guess is building 7 was supposed to come down at the same time the North tower fell and it's fall would covered by the dust plum or just in the general confusion but it didn't. Somebody screwed up. Building 7's fall is the single best piece of information on 9-11 being a false flag and they know it. There's no way possible to twist the fall of this building into any reality without there being some demo or whatever to destroy the bottom out from under it. Yes, and the Twin Towers came down at freefall speed too–all I needed, having knowledge of this basic principle of physics, to say, 'That's impossible.' It was and is, of course.
But there's no piece in their idiotic puzzle that makes any more sense. Building 7, the Pentagon where no plane was to be seen, Shanksville's crater, and debris scattered for miles, etc. etc. etc. etc.
Still, all the moles and trolls keep the petal to the metal, repeat, repeat–'Konspearissy Kkoooockss, HaHaHaHaHA'. Read More Agree: Amanda

daniel le mouche , April 11, 2017 at 12:59 am GMT \n
Also Wayfarer,
'infighting within the Caucasoid race, caused by conflicting dogma that originates from "sacred texts".
This is a load of crap. There is only deep cynicism in the rarified air and dizzying heights of Master. George Bush is a devout born again–crap. Tony Blair has converted to Catholicism–crap. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
Bill Jones , April 11, 2017 at 1:14 am GMT \n
@dninmore Right. Thank you. Dan Rather's live comment that "it looks like one of those demolitions you see" never is mentioned, again, despite all of the witness testimony to "multiple explosions". Nothing to see here. Not one day spent in a court of law over the greatest crime on American soil. The greatest crime on American soil was Truman's approval of the State of Israel. Read More
utu , April 11, 2017 at 1:35 am GMT \n
@Bill Jones The greatest crime on American soil was Truman's approval of the State of Israel. First Truman was getting hints that he might be assassinated

Israel's Stern Gang Mailed Letter Bomb to White House, President Truman
https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2016/10/11/israels-stern-gang-mailed-letter-bomb-white-house-president-truman/

and then Truman accepted a suitcase with $2 million during presidential campaign (per Gore Vidal)
https://unvis.it/realjewnews.com/?p=217

The well tried Plomo o Plata offer you can't refuse. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

dninmore , April 11, 2017 at 1:38 am GMT \n
@NoseytheDuke B25 burned petrol (gasoline) whilst the jets that struck the towers burned a far less flammable jet fuel (refined kerosine). I was unaware. Thank you for that. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
dninmore , April 11, 2017 at 1:41 am GMT \n
@Bill Jones The greatest crime on American soil was Truman's approval of the State of Israel. Noted, but that doesn't override the law, which is that the resolution was made and voted on in the General Assembly. It needed to be ratified or adopted by the Security Council. It never was, hence its illegitimacy. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
Bill Jones , April 11, 2017 at 2:06 am GMT \n
500 Words @Amanda Thanks for linking to James Corbett's video on 9/11--unfortunately, it should have many more views The Official Version of 9/11 goes something like this

Directed by a beardy-guy from a cave in Afghanistan, ( This well appointed Suite http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/nether_fictoid3.htm according to the London Times): nineteen hard-drinking, coke-snorting, devout Muslims enjoy lap dances before their mission to meet Allah

Using nothing more than craft knifes, they overpower cabin crew, passengers and pilots on four planes

And hangover or not, they manage to give the world's most sophisticated air defense system the slip

Unfazed by leaving their "How to Fly a Passenger Jet" guide in the car at the airport, they master the controls in no-time and score direct hits on two towers, causing THREE to collapse completely

Our masterminds even manage to overpower the odd law of physics or two and the world watches in awe as steel-framed buildings fall symmetrically – through their own mass – at free-fall speed, for the first time in history.

Despite all their dastardly cunning, they stupidly give their identity away by using explosion-proof passports, which survive the fireball undamaged and fall to the ground only to be discovered by the incredible crime-fighting sleuths at the FBI

Meanwhile down in Washington

Hani Hanjour, having previously flunked 2-man Cessna flying school, gets carried away with all the success of the day and suddenly finds incredible abilities behind the controls of a Boeing

Instead of flying straight down into the large roof area of the Pentagon, he decides to show off a little

Executing an incredible 270 degree downward spiral, he levels off to hit the low facade of the world's most heavily defended building

all without a single shot being fired . or ruining the nicely mowed lawn and all at a speed just too fast to capture on video

Later, in the skies above Pennsylvania

So desperate to talk to loved ones before their death, some passengers use sheer willpower to connect mobile calls that otherwise would not be possible until several years later

And following a heroic attempt by some to retake control of Flight 93, it crashes into a Shankesville field leaving no trace of engines, fuselage or occupants except for the standard issue Muslim terrorists bandana

Further south in Florida

President Bush, our brave Commander-in-Chief continues to read "My Pet Goat" to a class full of primary school children shrugging off the obvious possibility that his life could be in imminent danger

In New York

World Trade Center leaseholder Larry Silverstein blesses his own foresight in insuring the buildings against terrorist attack only six weeks previously

While back in Washington, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz shake their heads in disbelief at their own luck in getting the 'New Pearl Harbor' catalyzing event they so desired to pursue their agenda of world domination

And finally, not to be disturbed too much by reports of their own deaths, at least seven of our nineteen suicide hijackers turn up alive and kicking in mainstream media reports

And If you don't believe this, you are a conspiracy theorist. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

Paul C. , April 11, 2017 at 3:32 am GMT \n
100 Words @Si1ver1ock When you see something obviously wrong and the media won't cover it, you start to wonder what else they are lying about.

Rudy Dent is a true hero.

I support a real forensic/criminal investigation of 911. Well said. Unfortunately a real investigation will never occur. As you alluded to, the media is controlled. Controlled by the same cabal that's printing monopoly money and running our finance system, foreign affairs and government. The same evil chemtrailing our skies everyday, pushing vaccines and re-writing history.

Rudy Dent gets it and is a hero for speaking out. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

Rob Green , April 11, 2017 at 9:57 am GMT \n
Rudy Dent is a disgraced FDNY ex-fireman who is shunned and hated by his former colleagues for desecrating the memory of those fallen on 9/11. He should rot in hell for the fabrications he is spewing about the deaths of his former brothers. Read More
daniel le mouche , April 11, 2017 at 11:13 am GMT \n
@daniel le mouche Haven't read the article yet, but love the woman's sign in the picture--'Our oppression is NOT up for debate'.
And boy does she look oppressed, along with her co-religionists/racists on the top of every profession that manipulates everyone else--hollywood, network tv, radio, newspapers, magazines, the music industry, universities, government, banks.
Nice try, prick. (Not that a single Unz reader was fooled.) my comment 42 was in response to 'sherm's' link to a daily beast 'article' titled 'jew-hater christopher bollyn etc.' which i'm sure conclusively debunks rudy dent just as 'sherm' says. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
daniel le mouche , April 11, 2017 at 11:43 am GMT \n
100 Words @Amanda Article mentioned Rothschilds instigating, orchestrating, and profiting from WW2 and I also wanted to add what loyal American Jew, Benjamin Freedman had to say about WW1 and WW2 (he ought to know b/c he was the right hand man of Bernard Baruch, Rothschild front-man, basically the Soros of yesterday.

Benjamin Freedman's 1961 Speech at the Willard Hotel (Complete)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhFRGDyX48c

Benjamin H. Freedman's excellent speech on how World War One (and Two) really started and why the U.S. was eventually drawn in. I am only 7 minutes into the video link you provide to Benjamin Freedman's WWI speech, but it has already turned anything I might have thought I knew about that war (admittedly very little) on its head. Thank you for just beginning to shine some light on the (likely) truth! It is just the tip of the iceberg, but people are starting to put the pieces together to who's behind our horrific modern dystopia. A century of most costly slumber by European and American masses. One's rage wells up
(What heartbreaking old footage of maimed soldiers, and to think of all the carnage ever since, ever ongoing.) Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

Timur The Lame , April 11, 2017 at 12:09 pm GMT \n
400 Words @ Bill Jones,

Good summary. Added to which was the air defense stand down ( subsequently revealed to be anti- terror exercises) which was the situation that immediatley set bells off for me before all the other facts came in. I had an amateur interest in military aircraft and defense procedures and thought wtf?

While most people, myself included, were in a state of shock during the first day, they already were filling the airwaves with stories about how the terrorists "turned the transponders off" and therefore the huge passenger jets were supposedly invisible.

Think about this for a second. This technologically irrelevant lie was already in the news feed and worked its magic with the hoi polloi. I went to get a haircut that day in a sleepy town and of course there was only one topic discussed while the TV was on in the waiting area. One soccer mom responded to my more skeptical commentary on how the attack could be possible by putting her hands on her hips, school marm' like and yelling "they turned off the transopnders [stupid implied]!" I responded by asking would Chinese or Russian bombers have transponders beeping away in some sort of a fair play gesture when attacking? In other words would the multi-trillion dollar east coast defense structure not have thought of this? Daggers.

Most importantly when discussing 911 now with a Koolaider, bringing up WTC7, which used to be a knockout punch is not as effective because the odd one who prefers the Popular Mechanics dialogue will come back with the debris and diesel crap. The most effective knockout punch now I find is bringing up the immediate anthrax mailings. Most will have either forgotten about it or not known of it in the first place. Play with it. Ask how in the world the Disco Dervishes got their hands on military grade anthrax that was traced back to a US laboratory etc

None are so blind as they who WILL not see and that unfortunately is always the vast majority who cannot allow for their mental structure and the world as they understand it to be blasted into fragments. JFK and 911 will be but two major contemporary events that will not be solved in our lifetimes.

Cheers- Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

dninmore , April 11, 2017 at 12:57 pm GMT \n
@Rob Green Rudy Dent is a disgraced FDNY ex-fireman who is shunned and hated by his former colleagues for desecrating the memory of those fallen on 9/11. He should rot in hell for the fabrications he is spewing about the deaths of his former brothers. I think Rudy's a wonderful human being and enjoyed getting to meet and talk with him in Detroit. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
anarchyst , April 11, 2017 at 2:03 pm GMT \n
200 Words @animalogic I understand that. I am open minded. But, I have been lead to believe that the shooting of Jew's was a considerable % of the 6 MIL. Further, the "camps" we're a response to the expense & general messiness of mass shooting. Let's see the "camps" had libraries, theaters, medical facilities, dining, and other facilities for the "comforts" of the occupants. Doctors, dentists were also available to see to the inmates' medical needs. In fact, many times specialists were brought in for unusual, difficult medical cases. There were also strict rules for the guards that severely punished any misbehavior against the inmates.
If these camps were "killing facilities", why all the amenities?
In addition, the logistics of transferring people from camp to camp had to be enormous.
Germany did not have the fuel to waste on transferring inmates from facility to facility, the idea that the "camps" were "killing facilities" is preposterous. What holocaust ™ promoters never show is the interviews of the (honest) camp occupants who report that there were no "gas chambers" and that they were treated well. These interviews, although available, are never shown. Why?
The truth is, most people survived the camps, and went on to live the rest of their long lives without incident. It is only in the 1960s where "the powers that be" CREATED the holocaust ™ as a "cash cow" that "keeps on giving" to this very day. Read More
republic , April 11, 2017 at 6:08 pm GMT \n
11,600 Words @Amanda Article mentioned Rothschilds instigating, orchestrating, and profiting from WW2 and I also wanted to add what loyal American Jew, Benjamin Freedman had to say about WW1 and WW2 (he ought to know b/c he was the right hand man of Bernard Baruch, Rothschild front-man, basically the Soros of yesterday.

Benjamin Freedman's 1961 Speech at the Willard Hotel (Complete)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhFRGDyX48c

Benjamin H. Freedman's excellent speech on how World War One (and Two) really started and why the U.S. was eventually drawn in. A Jewish Defector Warns America:

Benjamin Freedman Speaks on Zionism

This should do it! For the second and last time we are updating the transcript of Ben Freedman's 1961 speech at the Willard Hotel.

The piece has been posted for over a year now. A few months ago, a person challenged the authenticity of the transcript, because his version stated that Samuel Untermeyer had used the Columbia Broadcasting studios when he declared a worldwide boycott against Germany - in his words: 'A Holy War'. We could not debate the issue, having never heard the actual recording of Mr. Freedman's speech. Today, I discovered that we have a cassette tape of the speech, so I listened to the entire tape while reading the posted transcript. According to Mr. Freedman the radio station used by Untermeyer was, in fact, ABC.

There had also been some simple rearrangements of sentence structure in that transcript, and a line or two omitted in places. For the sake of authenticity, the corrections have been made. The transcript is now word for word from Mr. Freedman's speech.

The original transcriber had 'tidied up' Mr. Freedman's responses during the Q&A period, omitting superfluous and repetitious words. For the most part, we've left the tidied up version as it was, since it didn't change the response, and actually helped to clarify Mr. Freedman's answers. If the names were changed, he could have been making that speech yesterday. - Jackie - April 8, 2003

[MORE]
Here is our first update notice, about a year ago:

The original posting of this speech was taken from an existing web site. In going through our files we recently discovered a full transcript of the speech and realized the original posting was not complete. Here is the transcript from our files, with additional text at the beginning – some within the body of the speech – and a question and answer section at the end that had not been included in the original posting. There will be further postings from other writers and quotes that will confirm much of what Mr. Freedman said here. Many of you will see the truth of it, as it stands. - Jackie –

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Truth will stand on its own merit

A Jewish Defector Warns America:

Benjamin Freedman Speaks

by Benjamin H. Freedman

Introductory Note - Benjamin H. Freedman was one of the most intriguing and amazing individuals of the 20th century.

Mr. Freedman, born in 1890, was a successful Jewish businessman of New York City who was at one time the principal owner of the Woodbury Soap Company. He broke with organized Jewry after the Judeo-Communist victory of 1945, and spent the remainder of his life and the great preponderance of his considerable fortune, at least 2.5 million dollars, exposing the Jewish tyranny which has enveloped the United States.

Mr. Freedman knew what he was talking about because he had been an insider at the highest levels of Jewish organizations and Jewish machinations to gain power over our nation. Mr. Freedman was personally acquainted with Bernard Baruch, Samuel Untermyer, Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt, Joseph Kennedy, and John F. Kennedy, and many more movers and shakers of our times.

This speech was given before a patriotic audience in 1961 at the Willard Hotel in Washington, D.C., on behalf of Conde McGinley's patriotic newspaper of that time, Common Sense. Though in some minor ways this wide-ranging and extemporaneous speech has become dated, Mr. Freedman's essential message to us - his warning to the West - is more urgent than ever before. - K.A.S. -

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A CHRISTIAN VIEW OF THE HOLOCAUST

Ladies and gentlemen, you are about to hear a very frightening speech. This speech is an explanation of the plans now being laid to throw the United States into a third world war. It was made a short time ago before a large group in the Congressional `Room of the Willard Hotel in Washington, D.C. Both the speech and the question and answer period later so electrified the audience that a group of patriots has transferred it to two long-playing records which you may buy to play for friends, clubs, and your church group in your community. The speaker is Mr. Benjamin Freedman, noted authority on Zionism and all of its schemes. Mr. Freedman is a former Jew, and I mean a FORMER Jew. He has fought the Communist world conspiracy tooth and nail, and stands today as a leading American patriot. We now take you to the speaker's platform to present Benjamin Freedman.

(applause)

[Freedman's speech]

What I intend to tell you tonight is something that you have never been able to learn from any other source, and what I tell you now concerns not only you, but your children and the survival of this country and Christianity. I'm not here just to dish up a few facts to send up your blood pressure, but I'm here to tell you things that will help you preserve what you consider the most sacred things in the world: the liberty, and the freedom, and the right to live as Christians, where you have a little dignity, and a little right to pursue the things that your conscience tells you are the right things, as Christians.

Now, first of all, I'd like to tell you that on August 25th 1960 - that was shortly before elections - Senator Kennedy, who is now the President of the United States, went to New York, and delivered an address to the Zionist Organization of America. In that address, to reduce it to its briefest form, he stated that he would use the armed forces of the United States to preserve the existence of the regime set up in Palestine by the Zionists who are now in occupation of that area.

In other words, Christian boys are going to be yanked out of their homes, away from their families, and sent abroad to fight in Palestine against the Christian and Moslem Arabs who merely want to return to their homes. And these Christian boys are going to be asked to shoot to kill these innocent [Arab Palestinians] people who only want to follow out fifteen resolutions passed by the United Nations in the last twelve years calling upon the Zionists to allow these people to return to their homes.

Now, when United States troops appear in the Middle East to fight with the Zionists as their allies to prevent the return of these people who were evicted from their homes in the 1948 armed insurrection by the Zionists who were transplanted there from Eastern Europe when that happens, the United States will trigger World War III.

You say, when will that take place? The answer is, as soon as the difficulty between France and Algeria has been settled, that will take place. As soon as France and Algeria have been settled, that will take place. As soon as France and Algeria have settled their difficulty, and the Arab world, or the Moslem world, has no more war on their hands with France, they are going to move these people back into their homes, and when they do that and President kennedy sends your sons to fight over there to help the crooks hold on to what they stole from innocent men, women and children, we will trigger World War III; and when that starts you can be sure we cannot emerge from that war a victor. We are going to lose that war because there is not one nation in the world that will let one of their sons fight with us for such a cause.

I know and speak to these ambassadors in Washington and the United Nations - and of the ninety-nine nations there, I've consulted with maybe seventy of them - and when we go to war in Palestine to help the thieves retain possession of what they have stolen from these innocent people we're not going to have a man there to fight with us as our ally.

And who will these people have supporting them, you ask. Well, four days after President Kennedy - or he was then Senator Kennedy - made that statement on August 28, 1960, the Arab nations called a meeting in Lebanon and there they decided to resurrect, or reactivate, the government of Palestine, which has been dormant more or less, since the 1948 armed insurrection by the Zionists.

Not only that they ordered the creation of the Palestine Army, and they are now drilling maybe a half a million soldiers in that area of the world to lead these people back to their homeland. With them, they have as their allies all the nations of what is termed the Bandung Conference Group. That includes the Soviet Union and every Soviet Union satellite. It includes Red China; it includes every independent country in Asia and Africa; or eighty percent of the world's total population. Eighty percent of the world's population. Four out of five human beings on the face of the earth will be our enemies at war with us. And not alone are they four out of five human beings now on the face of this earth, but they are the non-Christian population of the world and they are the non-Caucasians the non-white nations of the world, and that's what we face.

And what is the reason? The reason is that here in the United States, the Zionists and their co-religionists have complete control of our government. For many reasons too many and too complex to go into here at this - time I'll be glad to answer questions, however, to support that statement - the Zionists and their co-religionists rule this United States as though they were the absolute monarchs of this country.

Now, you say, 'well, that's a very broad statement to make', but let me show what happened while you were - I don't want to wear that out - let me show what happened while WE were all asleep. I'm including myself with you. We were all asleep. What happened?

World War I broke out in the summer of 1914. Nineteen-hundred and fourteen was the year in which World War One broke out. There are few people here my age who remember that. Now that war was waged on one side by Great Britain, France, and Russia; and on the other side by Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Turkey. What happened?

Within two years Germany had won that war: not alone won it nominally, but won it actually. The German submarines, which were a surprise to the world, had swept all the convoys from the Atlantic Ocean, and Great Britain stood there without ammunition for her soldiers, stood there with one week's food supply facing her - and after that, starvation.

At that time, the French army had mutinied. They lost 600,000 of the flower of French youth in the defense of Verdun on the Somme. The Russian army was defecting. They were picking up their toys and going home, they didn't want to play war anymore, they didn't like the Czar. And the Italian army had collapsed.

Now Germany - not a shot had been fired on the German soil. Not an enemy soldier had crossed the border into Germany. And yet, here was Germany offering England peace terms. They offered England a negotiated peace on what the lawyers call a status quo ante basis. That means: "Let's call the war off, and let everything be as it was before the war started."

Well, England, in the summer of 1916 was considering that. Seriously! They had no choice. It was either accepting this negotiated peace that Germany was magnanimously offering them, or going on with the war and being totally defeated.

While that was going on, the Zionists in Germany, who represented the Zionists from Eastern Europe, went to the British War Cabinet and - I am going to be brief because this is a long story, but I have all the documents to prove any statement that I make if anyone here is curious, or doesn't believe what I'm saying is at all possible - the Zionists in London went to the British war cabinet and they said: "Look here. You can yet win this war. You don't have to give up. You don't have to accept the negotiated peace offered to you now by Germany. You can win this war if the United States will come in as your ally."

The United States was not in the war at that time. We were fresh; we were young; we were rich; we were powerful. They [Zionists] told England: "We will guarantee to bring the United States into the war as your ally, to fight with you on your side, if you will promise us Palestine after you win the war."

In other words, they made this deal: "We will get the United States into this war as your ally. The price you must pay us is Palestine after you have won the war and defeated Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Turkey."

Now England had as much right to promise Palestine to anybody, as the United States would have to promise Japan to Ireland for any reason whatsoever. It's absolutely absurd that Great Britain - that never had any connection or any interest or any right in what is known as Palestine - should offer it as coin of the realm to pay the Zionists for bringing the United States into the war.

However, they made that promise, in October of 1916. October, nineteen hundred and sixteen. And shortly after that - I don't know how many here remember it - the United States, which was almost totally pro-German - totally pro-German - because the newspapers here were controlled by Jews, the bankers were Jews, all the media of mass communications in this country were controlled by Jews, and they were pro-German because their people, in the majority of cases came from Germany, and they wanted to see Germany lick the Czar.

The Jews didn't like the Czar, and they didn't want Russia to win this war. So the German bankers - the German-Jews - Kuhn Loeb and the other big banking firms in the United States refused to finance France or England to the extent of one dollar. They stood aside and they said: "As long as France and England are tied up with Russia, not one cent!" But they poured money into Germany, they fought with Germany against Russia, trying to lick the Czarist regime.

Now those same Jews, when they saw the possibility of getting Palestine, they went to England and they made this deal. At that time, everything changed, like the traffic light that changes from red to green. Where the newspapers had been all pro-German, where they'd been telling the people of the difficulties that Germany was having fighting Great Britain commercially and in other respects, all of a sudden the Germans were no good. They were villains. They were Huns. They were shooting Red Cross nurses. They were cutting off babies' hands. And they were no good.

Well, shortly after that, Mr. Wilson declared war on Germany.

The Zionists in London sent these cables to the United States, to Justice Brandeis: "Go to work on President Wilson. We're getting from England what we want. Now you go to work, and you go to work on President Wilson and get the United States into the war." And that did happen. That's how the United States got into the war. We had no more interest in it; we had no more right to be in it than we have to be on the moon tonight instead of in this room.

Now the war - World War One - in which the United States participated had absolutely no reason to be our war. We went in there - we were railroaded into it - if I can be vulgar, we were suckered into - that war merely so that the Zionists of the world could obtain Palestine. Now, that is something that the people in the United States have never been told. They never knew why we went into World War One. Now, what happened?

After we got into the war, the Zionists went to Great Britain and they said: "Well, we performed our part of the agreement. Let's have something in writing that shows that you are going to keep your bargain and give us Palestine after you win the war." Because they didn't know whether the war would last another year or another ten years. So they started to work out a receipt. The receipt took the form of a letter, and it was worded in very cryptic language so that the world at large wouldn't know what it was all about. And that was called the Balfour Declaration.

The Balfour Declaration was merely Great Britain's promise to pay the Zionists what they had agreed upon as a consideration for getting the United States into the war. So this great Balfour Declaration, that you hear so much about, is just as phony as a three dollar bill. And I don't think I could make it more emphatic than that.

Now, that is where all the trouble started. The United States went in the war. The United States crushed Germany. We went in there, and it's history. You know what happened. Now, when the war was ended, and the Germans went to Paris, to the Paris Peace Conference in 1919, there were 117 Jews there, as a delegation representing the Jews, headed by Bernard Baruch. I was there: I ought to know. Now what happened?

The Jews at that peace conference, when they were cutting up Germany and parceling out Europe to all these nations that claimed a right to a certain part of European territory, the Jews said, "How about Palestine for us?" And they produced, for the first time to the knowledge of the Germans, this Balfour Declaration. So the Germans, for the first time realized, "Oh, that was the game! That's why the United States came into the war." And the Germans for the first time realized that they were defeated, they suffered this terrific reparation that was slapped onto them, because the Zionists wanted Palestine and they were determined to get it at any cost.

Now, that brings us to another very interesting point. When the Germans realized this, they naturally resented it. Up to that time, the Jews had never been better off in any country in the world than they had been in Germany.

You had Mr. Rathenau there, who was maybe 100 times as important in industry and finance as is Bernard Baruch in this country. You had Mr. Balin, who owned the two big steamship lines, the North German Lloyd's and the Hamburg-American Lines. You had Mr. Bleichroder, who was the banker for the Hohenzollern family. You had the Warburgs in Hamburg, who were the big merchant bankers - the biggest in the world. The Jews were doing very well in Germany. No question about that. Now, the Germans felt: "Well, that was quite a sellout."

It was a sellout that I can best compare - suppose the United States was at war today with the Soviet Union. And we were winning. And we told the Soviet Union: "Well, let's quit. We offer you peace terms. Let's forget the whole thing." And all of a sudden Red China came into the war as an ally of the Soviet Union. And throwing them into the war brought about our defeat. A crushing defeat, with reparations the likes of which man's imagination cannot encompass.

Imagine, then, after that defeat, if we found out that it was the Chinese in this country, our Chinese citizens, who all the time we thought they were loyal citizens working with us, were selling us out to the Soviet Union and that it was through them that Red China was brought into the war against us. How would we feel, in the United States against Chinese? I don't think that one of them would dare show his face on any street. There wouldn't be lampposts enough, convenient, to take care of them. Imagine how we would feel.

Well, that's how the Germans felt towards these Jews. "We've been so nice to them"; and from 1905 on, when the first Communist revolution in Russia failed, and the Jews had to scramble out of Russia, they all went to Germany. And Germany gave them refuge. And they were treated very nicely. And here they sold Germany down the river for no reason at all other than they wanted Palestine as a so-called "Jewish commonwealth."

Now, Nahum Sokolow - all the great leaders, the big names that you read about in connection with Zionism today - they, in 1919, 1920, '21, '22, and '23, they wrote in all their papers - and the press was filled with their statements - that "the feeling against the Jews in Germany is due to the fact that they realized that this great defeat was brought about by our intercession and bringing the United States into the war against them."

The Jews themselves admitted that. It wasn't that the Germans in 1919 discovered that a glass of Jewish blood tasted better than Coca-Cola or Muenschner Beer. There was no religious feeling. There was no sentiment against those people merely on account of their religious belief. It was all political. It was economic. It was anything but religious.

Nobody cared in Germany whether a Jew went home and pulled down the shades and said "Shema' Yisrael" or "Our Father." No one cared in Germany any more than they do in the United States. Now this feeling that developed later in Germany was due to one thing: that the Germans held the Jews responsible for their crushing defeat, for no reason at all, because World War One was started against Germany for no reason for which they [Germans] were responsible. They were guilty of nothing. Only of being successful. They built up a big navy. They built up world trade.

You must remember, Germany, at the time of Napoleon, at the time of the French Revolution, what was the German Reich consisted of 300 - three hundred! - small city-states, principalities, dukedoms, and so forth. Three hundred little separate political entities. And between that time, between the period of. . . between Napoleon and Bismarck, they were consolidated into one state. And within 50 years after that time they became one of the world's great powers. Their navy was rivalling Great Britain's, they were doing business all over the world, they could undersell anybody and make better products. And what happened? What happened as a result of that?

There was a conspiracy between England, France, and Russia that: "We must slap down Germany", because there isn't one historian in the world that can find a valid reason why those three countries decided to wipe Germany off the map politically. Now, what happened after that?

When Germany realized that the Jews were responsible for her defeat, they naturally resented it. But not a hair on the head of any Jew was harmed. Not a single hair. Professor Tansill, of Georgetown University, who had access to all the secret papers of the State Department, wrote in his book, and quoted from a State Department document written by Hugo Schoenfelt, a Jew who Cordell Hull sent to Europe in 1933 to investigate the so-called camps of political prisoners. And he wrote back that he found them in very fine condition.

They were in excellent shape; everybody treated well. And they were filled with Communists. Well, a lot of them were Jews, because the Jews happened to be maybe 98 per cent of the Communists in Europe at that time. And there were some priests there, and ministers, and labor leaders, Masons, and others who had international affiliations.

Now, the Jews sort of tried to keep the lid on this fact. They didn't want the world to really understand that they had sold out Germany, and that the Germans resented that.

So they did take appropriate action against them [against the Jews]. They. . . shall I say, discriminated against them wherever they could? They shunned them. The same as we would the Chinese, or the Negroes, or the Catholics, or anyone in this country who had sold us out to an enemy and brought about our defeat.

Now, after a while, the Jews of the world didn't know what to do, so they called a meeting in Amsterdam. Jews from every country in the world attended in July 1933. And they said to Germany: "You fire Hitler! And you put every Jew back into his former position, whether he was a Communist, no matter what he was. You can't treat us that way! And we, the Jews of the world, are calling upon you, and serving this ultimatum upon you." Well, the Germans told them. . . you can imagine. So what did they [the Jews] do?

They broke up, and Samuel Untermyer, if the name means anything to people here. . . (You want to ask a question? - Uh, there were no Communists in Germany at that time. they were called 'Social Democrats.)

Well, I don't want to go by what they were called. We're now using English words, and what they were called in Germany is not very material. . . but they were Communists, because in 1917, the Communists took over Germany for a few days. Rosa Luxembourg and Karl Liebknecht, and a group of Jews in Germany took over the government for three days. In fact, when the Kaiser ended the war, he fled to Holland because he thought the Communists were going to take over Germany as they did Russia, and that he was going to meet the same fate that the Czar did in Russia. So he left and went to Holland for safety and for security.

Now, at that time, when the Communist threat in Germany was quashed, it was quiet, the Jews were working, still trying to get back into their former - their status - and the Germans fought them in every way they could, without hurting a hair on anyone's head. The same as one group, the Prohibitionists, fought the people who were interested in liquor, and they didn't fight one another with pistols, they did it every way they could.

Well, that's the way they were fighting the Jews in Germany. And, at that time, mind you, there were 80 to 90 million Germans and there were only 460,000 Jews. . . less than one half of one percent of Germany were Jews. And yet, they controlled all of the press, they controlled most of the economy, because they had come in and with cheap money - you know the way the Mark was devalued - they bought up practically everything.

Well, in 1933 when Germany refused to surrender, mind you, to the World Conference of Jews in Amsterdam, they broke up and Mr. Untermeyer came back to the United States - who was the head of the American delegation and the president of the whole conference - and he went from the steamer to ABC and made a radio broadcast throughout the United States in which he said:

"The Jews of the world now declare a Holy War against Germany. We are now engaged in a sacred conflict against the Germans. And we are going to starve them into surrender. We are going to use a world-wide boycott against them, that will destroy them because they are dependent upon their export business."

And it is a fact that two thirds of Germany's food supply had to be imported, and it could only be imported with the proceeds of what they exported. Their labor. So if Germany could not export, two thirds of Germany's population would have to starve. There just was not enough food for more than one third of the population.

Now in this declaration, which I have here, it was printed on page - a whole page - in the New York Times on August 7, 1933, Mr. Samuel Untermyer boldly stated that: "this economic boycott is our means of self-defense. President Roosevelt has advocated its use in the NRA" . [National Recovery Administration] - which some of you may remember, where everybody was to be boycotted unless they followed the rules laid down by the New Deal, which of course was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court at that time.

Nevertheless, the Jews of the world declared a boycott against Germany, and it was so effective that you couldn't find one thing in any store anywhere in the world with the words "made in Germany" on it.

In fact, an executive of the Woolworth Company told me that they had to dump millions of dollars worth of crockery and dishes into the river; that their stores were boycotted. If anyone came in and found a dish marked "made in Germany," they were picketed with signs: "Hitler", "murderer", and so forth, and like - something like these sit-ins that are taking place in the South.

R. H. Macy, which is controlled by a family called Strauss who also happen to be Jews. . . a woman found stockings there which came from Chemnitz, marked "made in Germany". Well, they were cotton stockings. They may have been there 20 years, because since I've been observing women's legs in the last twenty years, I haven't seen a pair with cotton stockings on them. So Macy! I saw Macy boycotted, with hundreds of people walking around with signs saying "MURDERS" and "HITLERITES", and so forth.

Now up to that time, not one hair on the head of any Jew had been hurt in Germany. There was no suffering, there was no starvation, there was no murder, there was nothing.

Now, that. . . naturally, the Germans said, "Why, who are these people to declare a boycott against us and throw all our people out of work, and our industries come to a standstill? Who are they to do that to us?" They naturally resented it. Certainly they painted swastikas on stores owned by Jews.

Why should a German go in and give their money to a storekeeper who was part of a boycott who was going to starve Germany into surrender into the Jews of the world, who were going to dictate who their premier or chancellor was to be? Well, it was ridiculous.

That continued for some time, and it wasn't until 1938, when a young Jew from Poland walked into the German embassy in Paris and shot one of the officials [a German official] that the Germans really started to get rough with the Jews in Germany. And you found them then breaking windows and having street fights and so forth.

Now, for anyone to say that - I don't like to use the word 'anti-Semitism' because it's meaningless, but it means something to you still, so I'll have to use it - the only reason that there was any feeling in Germany against Jews was that they were responsible: number one, for World War One; number two, for this world-wide boycott, and number three - did I say for World War One, they were responsible? For the boycott - and also for World War II, because after this thing got out of hand, it was absolutely necessary for the Jews and Germany to lock horns in a war to see which one was going to survive.

In the meanwhile, I had lived in Germany, and I knew that the Germans had decided [that] Europe is going to be Christian or Communist: there is no in between. It's going to be Christian or it's going to be Communist. And the Germans decided: "We're going to keep it Christian if possible". And they started to re-arm.

And there intention was - by that time the United States had recognized the Soviet Union, which they did in November, 1933 - the Soviet Union was becoming very powerful, and Germany realized: "Well, our turn is going to come soon, unless we are strong." The same as we in this country are saying today, "Our turn is going to come soon, unless we are strong."

And our government is spending 83 or 84 billion dollars of your money for defense, they say. Defense against whom? Defense against 40,000 little Jews in Moscow that took over Russia, and then, in their devious ways, took over control of many other governments of the world.

Now, for this country to now be on the verge of a Third World War, from which we cannot emerge a victor, is something that staggers my imagination. I know that nuclear bombs are measured in terms of megatons. A megaton is a term used to describe one million tons of TNT. One million tons of TNT is a megaton. Now, our nuclear bombs have a capacity of 10 megatons, or 10 million tons of TNT. That was when they were first developed five or six years ago. Now, the nuclear bombs that are being developed have a capacity of 200 megatons, and God knows how many megatons the nuclear bombs of the Soviet Union have.

So, what do we face now? If we trigger a world war that may develop into a nuclear war, humanity is finished. And why will it take place? It will take place because Act III. . . the curtain goes up on Act III. Act I was World War I. Act II was World War II. Act III is going to be World War III.

The Jews of the world, the Zionists and their co-religionists everywhere, are determined that they are going to again use the United States to help them permanently retain Palestine as their foothold for their world government. Now, that is just as true as I am standing here, because not alone have I read it, but many here have read it, and it's known all over the world.

Now, what are we going to do? The life you save may be your son's. Your boys may be on their way to that war tonight; and you you don't know it any more than you knew that in 1916 in London the Zionists made a deal with the British War Cabinet to send your sons to war in Europe. Did you know it at that time? Not a person in the United States knew it. You weren't permitted to know it.

Who knew it? President Wilson knew it. Colonel House knew it. Other 's knew it. Did I know it? I had a pretty good idea of what was going on: I was liaison to Henry Morgenthau, Sr., in the 1912 campaign when President Wilson was elected, and there was talk around the office there.

I was 'confidential man' to Henry Morgenthau, Sr., who was chairman of the Finance Committee, and I was liaison between him and Rollo Wells, the treasurer. So I sat in these meetings with President Wilson at the head of the table, and all the others, and I heard them drum into President Wilson's brain the graduated income tax and what has become the Federal Reserve, and also indoctrinate him with the Zionist movement.

Justice Brandeis and President Wilson were just as close as the two fingers on this hand, and President Woodrow Wilson was just as incompetent when it came to determining what was going on as a newborn baby. And that's how they got us into World War I, while we all slept.

Now, at this moment at this moment they may be planning this World War III, in which we don't stand a chance even if they don't use nuclear bombs. How can the United States - about five percent of the world - go out and fight eighty to ninety percent of the world on their home ground? How can we do it send our boys over there to be slaughtered? For what? So the Jews can have Palestine as their 'commonwealth'? They've fooled you so much that you don't know whether you're coming or going.

Now any judge, when he charges a jury, says, "Gentlemen, any witness that you find has told a single lie, you can disregard all his testimony." That is correct. I don't know from what state you come, but in New York state that is the way a judge addresses a jury. If that witness said one lie, disregard his testimony.

Now, what are the facts about the Jews?

The Jews - I call them Jews to you, because they are known as Jews. I don't call them Jews. I refer to them as so-called Jews, because I know what they are. If Jesus was a Jew, there isn't a Jew in the world today, and if those people are Jews, certainly our Lord and Savior was not one of them, and I can prove that.

Now what happened? The eastern European Jews, who form 92 per cent of the world's population of those people who call themselves Jews, were originally Khazars.

They were a warlike tribe that lived deep in the heart of Asia. And they were so warlike that even the Asiatics drove them out of Asia into eastern Europe - and to reduce this so you don't get too confused about the history of Eastern Europe - they set up this big Khazar kingdom: 800,000 square miles. Only, there was no Russia, there were no other countries, and the Khazar kingdom was the biggest country in all Europe - so big and so powerful that when the other monarchs wanted to go to war, the Khazars would lend them 40,000 soldiers. That's how big and powerful they were.

Now, they were phallic worshippers, which is filthy. I don't want to go into the details of that now. It was their religion the way it was the religion of many other Pagans or Barbarians elsewhere in the world.

Now, the [Khazar] king became so disgusted with the degeneracy of his kingdom that he decided to adopt a so-called monotheistic faith - either Christianity, Islam - the Moslem faith - or what is known today as Judaism - really Talmudism. So, like spinning a top and calling out "eeny, meeny, miney, moe," he picked out so-called Judaism. And that became the state religion.

He sent down to the Talmudic schools of Pumbedita and Sura and brought up thousands of these rabbis with their teachings, and opened up synagogues and schools in his kingdom of 800,000 people - 800,000 thousand square miles - and maybe ten to twenty million people; and they became what we call Jews. There wasn't one of them that had an ancestor that ever put a toe in the Holy Land, not only in Old Testament history, but back to the beginning of time. Not one of them! And yet they come to the Christians and they ask us to support their armed insurrection in Palestine by saying:

"Well, you want to certainly help repatriate God's chosen people to their Promised Land, their ancestral homeland, It's your Christian duty. We gave you one of our boys as your Lord and Savior. You now go to church on Sunday, and kneel and you worship a Jew, and we're Jews."

Well, they were pagan Khazars who were converted just the same as the Irish [were converted]. And it's just as ridiculous to call them "people of the Holy Land," as it would be. . . there are 54 million Chinese Moslems. Fifty four million! And, Mohammed only died in 620 A.D., so in that time, 54 million Chinese have accepted Islam as their religious belief.

Now imagine, in China, 2,000 miles away from Arabia, where the city of Mecca is located, where Mohammed was born. . . imagine if the 54 million Chinese called themselves 'Arabs'. Imagine! Why, you'd say they're lunatics. Anyone who believes that those 54 million Chinese are Arabs must be crazy. All they did was adopt as a religious faith; a belief that had its origin in Mecca, in Arabia.

The same as the Irish. When the Irish became Christians, nobody dumped them in the ocean and imported from the Holy Land a new crop of inhabitants that were Christians. They weren't different people. They were the same people, but they had accepted Christianity as a religious faith.

Now, these Pagans, these Asiatics, these Turko-Finns. . . they were a Mongoloid race who were forced out of Asia into eastern Europe. They likewise, because their king took the faith - Talmudic faith - they had no choice. Just the same as in Spain: If the king was Catholic, everybody had to be a Catholic. If not, you had to get out of Spain. So everybody - they lived on the land just like the trees and the bushes; a human being belonged to the land under their feudal system - so they [Khazars] all became what we call today, Jews!

Now imagine how silly it was for the Christians. . . for the great Christian countries of the world to say, "We're going to use our power, our prestige to repatriate God's chosen people to their ancestral homeland, their Promised Land."

Now, could there be a bigger lie than that? Could there be a bigger lie than that?

And because they control the newspapers, the magazines, the radio, the television, the book publishing business, they have the ministers in the pulpit, they have the politicians on the soap boxes talking the same language . . . so naturally you'd believe black is white if you heard it often enough. You wouldn't call black black anymore - you'd start to call black white. And nobody could blame you.

Now, that is one of the great lies. . . that is the foundation of all the misery that has befallen the world. Because after two wars fought in Europe - World War I and World War II - if it wasn't possible for them to live in peace and harmony with the people in Europe, like their brethren are living in the United States, what were the two wars fought for? Did they have to - like you flush the toilet - because they couldn't get along, did they have to say, "Well, we're going back to our homeland and you Christians can help us"?

I can't understand yet how the Christians in Europe could have been that dumb because every theologian, every history teacher, knew the things that I'm telling you. But, they naturally bribed them, shut them up with money, stuffed their mouths with money, and now. . . I don't care whether you know all this or not. It doesn't make any difference to me whether you know all these facts or not, but it does make a difference to me. I've got, in my family, boys that will have to be in the next war, and I don't want them to go and fight and die like they died in Korea. Like they died in Japan. Like they've died all over the world. For what?

To help crooks hold on to what they stole from innocent people who had been in peaceful possession of that land, those farms, those homes for hundreds and maybe thousands of years? Is that why the United States must go to war? Because the Democratic Party wants New York State - the electoral vote? Illinois, the electoral vote? And Pennsylvania, the electoral vote? which are controlled by the Zionists and their co-religionists?. . . the balance of power?

In New York City there are 400,000 members of the liberal party, all Zionists and their co-religionists. And New York State went for Kennedy by 400,000 votes. Now, I don't blame Mr. Kennedy. I'm fond of Mr. Kennedy. I think he's a great man. I think he can really pull us out of this trouble if we get the facts to him. And I believe he knows a great deal more than his appointments indicate he knows. He's playing with the enemy. Like when you go fishing, you've got to play with the fish. Let 'em out and pull 'em in. Let 'em out and pull 'em in. But knowing Mr. Kennedy's father, and how well informed he is on this whole subject, and how close Kennedy is to his father, I don't think Mr. Kennedy is totally in the dark.

But I do think that it is the duty of every mother, every loyal Christian , every person that regards the defense of this country as a sacred right, that they communicate - not with their congressman, not with their senator, but with President Kennedy. And tell him, "I do not think you should send my boy, or our boys, wearing the uniform of the United States of America, and under the flag that you see here, our red, white and blue, to fight there to help keep in the hands of these that which they have stolen". I think everyone should not alone write once, but keep writing and get your friends to write.

Now, I could go on endlessly, and tell you these things to support what I have just asked you to do. But I don't think it's necessary to do that. You're above the average group in intelligence and I don't think it's necessary to impress this any more.

But. . . I want to tell you one more thing. You talk about "Oh, the Jews. Why the Jews? Christianity. Why, we got Christianity from the Jews and the Jews gave us Jesus, and the Jews gave us our religion". But do you know that on the day of atonement that you think is so sacred to them, that on that day and I was one of them! This is not hearsay. I'm not here to be a rabble-rouser. I'm here to give you facts.

When, on the Day of Atonement, you walk into a synagogue, the very first prayer that you recite, you stand - and it's the only prayer for which you stand - and you repeat three times a short prayer. The Kol Nidre. In that prayer, you enter into an agreement with God Almighty that any oath, vow, or pledge that you may make during the next twelve months - any oath, vow or pledge that you may take during the next twelve months shall be null and void.

The oath shall not be an oath; the vow shall not be a vow; the pledge shall not be a pledge. They shall have no force and effect, and so forth and so on.

And further than that, the Talmud teaches: "Don't forget - whenever you take an oath, vow, and pledge - remember the Kol Nidre prayer that you recited on the Day of Atonement, and that exempts you from fulfilling that".

How much can you depend on their loyalty? You can depend upon their loyalty as much as the Germans depended upon it in 1916.

And we're going to suffer the same fate as Germany suffered, and for the same reason. You can't depend upon something as insecure as the leadership that is not obliged to respect an oath, vow or pledge. Now I could go on and recite many other things to you, but I would have a little respect for your time, and you want to really, uh, get through with all of this. Tomorrow's going to be a long day.

Now I want to say one thing. You ask me. . . well, you think to yourself: "well how did this fellow get mixed up in this the way he got mixed up in it." Well, I opened my mouth in 1945, and I took big pages in newspapers and tried to tell the American people what I'm telling you. And one newspaper after another refused the advertisement. And when I couldn't find a newspaper to take them - I paid cash, not credit - what happened? My lawyer told me, "There's an editor over in Jersey with a paper who will take your announcement". So, I was brought together with Mr. McGinley, and that's how I met him.

So somebody told me the lawyer who introduced me, who was the son of the Dean of the Methodist Bishop, he said: "Well, I think he's a little anti-Semitic. I don't know whether I can get him over here. So he brought him over to my apartment and we hit it off wonderfully, and have since then.

Now, I say this, and I say it without any qualifications. I say it without any reservations. And I say it without any hesitation. . . if it wasn't for the work that Mr. Conley McGinley did with "Common Sense" - he's been sending out from 1,800,000 to 2,000,000 every year - if it wasn't for the work he's been doing sending those out for fifteen years now, we would already be a communist country. Nobody has done what he did to light fires. Many of the other active persons in this fight learned all about if for the first time through "Common Sense".

Now, I have been very active in helping him all I could. I'm not as flush as I was. I cannot go on spending the money. . . I'm not going to take up a collection. Don't worry. I see five people getting up to leave. (laughter)

I haven't got the money that I used to spend. I used to print a quarter of a million of them out of my own pocket and send them out. Mr. McGinley, when I first met him, had maybe 5,000 printed and circulated them locally. So I said, "With what you know and what I know, we can really do a good job". So I started printing in outside shops of big newspaper companies, a quarter of a million, and paid for them. Well, there's always a bottom to the barrel. I suppose we've all reached that at times.

I'm not so poor that I can't live without working and that's what worries the Anti-Defamation League. I can just get by without going and asking for a job or getting on the bread line. But Mr. McGinley is working. He's sick and he's going at this stronger than ever. And all I want to say is that they want to close up "Common Sense" more than any other single thing in the whole world, as a death-blow to the fight Christians are making to survive.

So I just want to tell you this. All they do is circulate rumors: "Mr. Benjamin H. Freedman is the wealthy backer of 'Common Sense'." The reason they do that is to discourage the people in the United States: don't send any money to Common Sense. They don't need it. The've got the wealthy Mr. Freedman as a backer. That all has strategy. They don't want to advertise me so that people that have real estate or securities to sell will come and call on me. They just want people to lay off "Common Sense". And all I'm telling you is, I do try to help him, but I haven't been able to. And I will be very honest. One thing I won't do is lie. In the last year I've had so much sickness in my family that I could not give him one dollar.

How he's managed to survive, I don't know. God alone knows. And he must be in God's care because how he's pulled through his sickness and with his financial troubles, I don't know. But that press is working. . . and every two weeks about a hundred or a hundred-fifty-thousand of "Common Sense" go out with a new message. And if that information could be multiplied. . . if people that now get it could buy ten or twenty five, or fifty, give them around. Plow that field. Sow those seeds, you don't know which will take root, but for God's sake, this is our last chance.

[Freedman then discusses the importance of people forgoing unnecessary purchases to 'buy more stuff', play golf, etc., and use the money to keep "Common Sense" going. He explains that the paper is going in debt; could be closed down and he (Freedman) no longer has the funds, having spent some $2,400,000 in his attempt to bring the information to the American public and elected officials. He then asks for questions from the audience.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

{Question inaudible]

Freedman: All right, I'll comment on that. This is rather deep, but you all have a very high degree of intelligence, so I'm going to make an attempt. In the time of Bible history, there was a geographic area known as Judea. Judea was a province of the Roman Empire. Now, a person who lived in Judea was known as a Judean, and in Latin it was Judaeus; in Greek it was Judaius. Those are the two words, in Greek and Latin, for a Judean.

Now, in Latin and Greek there is no such letter as 'j', and the first syllable of Judaeus and Judaius starts 'ghu'. Now, when the Bible was written, it was first written in Greek, Latin, Panantic, Syriac, Aramaic all those languages. Never Was the word Jew in any of them because the word didn't exist. Judea was the country, and the people were Judeans, and Jesus was referred to only as a Judean. I've seen those early the earliest scripts available.

In 1345, a man by the name of Wycliffe in England thought that it was time to translate the Bible into English. There was no English edition of the Bible because who the Devil could read? It was only the educated church people who could read Latin and Greek, Syriac, Aramaic and the other languages. Anyhow, Wycliffe translated the Bible into English. But in it, he had to look around for some words for Judaeas and Judaius.

There was no English word because Judea had passed out of existence. There was no Judea. People had long ago forgotten that. So in the first translation he used the word, in referring to Jesus, as 'gyu', "jew". At the time, there was no printing press.

Then, between 1345 and the 17th century, when the press came into use, that word passed through so many changes I have them all here. If you want I can read them to you. I will. That word 'gyu' which was in the Wycliffe Bible became. . . first it was ' gyu ', then ' giu ', then ' iu ' (because the ' i ' in Latin is pronounced like the ' j '. Julius Caesar is ' Iul ' because there is no 'j' in Latin) then ' iuw ', then ' ieuu ', then ' ieuy ', then ' iwe ', then ' iow ', then ' iewe ', all in Bibles as time went on. Then ' ieue ', then ' iue ', then ' ive ', and then ' ivw ', and finally in the 18th century ' jew '. Jew.

All the corrupt and contracted forms for Judaius, and Judaeas in Latin. Now, there was no such thing as 'Jew', and any theologian - I've lectured in maybe 20 of the most prominent theological seminaries in this country, and two in Europe - there was no such word as Jew. There only was Judea, and Jesus was a Judean and the first English use of a word in an English bible to describe him was 'gyu' - Jew. A contracted and shortened form of Judaeus, just the same as we call a laboratory a 'lab', and gasoline 'gas' a tendency to short up.

So, in England there were no public schools; people didn't know how to read; it looked like a scrambled alphabet so they made a short word out of it. Now for a theologian to say that you can't harm the Jews, is just ridiculous. I'd like to know where in the scriptures it says that. I'd like to know the text.

Look at what happened to Germany for touching Jews. What would you, as a citizen of the United States, do to people who did to you what the so-called Jews - the Pollacks and Litvaks and Litzianers - they weren't Jews, as I just explained to you. They were Eastern Europeans who'd been converted to Talmudism. There was no such thing as Judaism. Judaism was a name given in recent years to this religion known in Bible history as Torah [inaudible]. No Jew or no educated person ever heard of Judaism. It didn't exist. They pulled it out of the air. . . a meaningless word.

Just like 'anti-Semitic'. The Arab is a Semite. And the Christians talk about people who don't like Jews as anti-Semites, and they call all the Arabs anti-Semites. The only Semites in the world are the Arabs. There isn't one Jew who's a Semite. They're all Turkothean Mongoloids. The Eastern european Jews. So, they brainwashed the public, and if you will invite me to meet this reverend who told you these things, I'll convince him and it'll be one step in the right direction. I'll go wherever I have to go to meet him.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes, ma'am. Well I can answer that. First of all, your first premise is wrong. Your first premise that all the Jews are loyal to each other is wrong. Because, the Eastern European Jews outnumber all the rest by so many that they create the impression that they are the Jewish 'race'; that they are the Jewish nation; that they are the Jewish people. . . and the Christians swallow it like a cream puff.

But in 1844 the German rabbis called a conference of rabbis from all over the world for the purpose of abolishing the Kol Nidre from the Day of Atonement religious ceremony. In Brunswick, Germany, where that conference was held in 1844, there was almost a terrific riot. A civil war.

The Eastern Europeans said, "What the hell. We should give up Kol Nidre? That gives us our grip on our people. We give them a franchise so they can tell the Christians, 'Go to hell. We'll make any deal you want', but they don't have to carry it out. That gives us our grip on our people". So, they're not so united, and if you knew the feeling that exists. . .

Now, I'll also show you from an official document by the man responsible for. . . uh, who baptized this race. Here is a paper that we obtained from the archives of the Zionist organization in New York City, and in it is the manuscript by Sir James A. Malcolm, who - on behalf of the British Cabinet - negotiated the deal with these Zionists.

And in here he says that all the jews in England were against it. The Jews who had been there for years, the [inaudible - probably Sephardim], those who had Portuguese and Spanish ad Dutch ancestry who were monotheists and believed in that religious belief. That was while the Eastern European Jews were still running around in the heart of Asia and then came into Europe. But they had no more to do with them than. . . can we talk about a Christian 'race'? or a Christian religion? or are the Christians united?

So the same disunity is among the Jews. And I'll show you in this same document that when they went to France to try and get the French government to back that Zionist venture, there was only one Jew in France who was for it. That was Rothschild, and they did it because they were interested in the oil and the Suez Canal

----------------

[Question inaudible] Freedman: You know why? Because if they don't, they're decked up. They come around and they tell you how much you must give, and if you don't . . . oh, you're anti-Semitic. Then none of their friends will have anything to do with them, and they start a smear campaign. . . and you have got to give.

In New York city, in the garment center, there are twelve manufacturers in the building. And when the drive is on to sell Israel Bonds, the United Jewish Drive, they put a big scoreboard with the names of the firms and opposite them, as you make the amount they put you down for, they put a gold star after the name. Then, the buyers are told, "When you come into that building to call on someone and they haven't got a gold star, tell them that you won't buy from them until they have the gold star". BLACKMAIL. I don't know what else you can call it.

Then what do they do? They tell you it's for 'humanitarian purposes' and they send maybe $8 billion dollars to Israel, tax exempt, tax deductible. So if they hadn't sent that eight billion dollars to Israel, seven billion of it would have gone into the U.S. Treasury as income tax. So what happens? That seven billion dollars deficit - that air pocket - the gullible Christians have to make up.

They put a bigger tax on gas or bread or corporation tax. Somebody has to pay the housekeeping expenses for the government. So why do you let these people send their money over there to buy guns to drive people out of their ancient homeland? And you say, "Oh, well. The poor Jews. They have no place to go and they've been persecuted all their lives". They've never been persecuted for their religion. And I wish I had two rows of Rabbis here to challenge me. Never once, in all of history, have they been persecuted for their religion.

Do you know why the Jews were driven out of England? King Edward the First in 1285 drove them out, and they never came back until the Cromwell Revolution which was financed by the Rothschilds. For four-hundred years there wasn't a Jew. But do you know why they were driven out? Because in the Christian faith and the Moslem faith it's a sin to charge 'rent' for the use of money. In other words – what we call interest [usury] is a sin.

So the Jews had a monopoly in England and they charged so much interest, and when the Lords and Dukes couldn't pay, they [Jews] foreclosed. And they were creating so much trouble that the king of England finally made himself their partner, because when they they came to foreclose, some of these dukes bumped off the Jews. . . the money-lenders. So the king finally said - and this is all in history, look up Tianson [Tennyson?] or Rourke, the History of the Jews in England; two books you can find in your library. When the king found out what the trouble was all about, and how much money they were making, he declared himself a fifty-percent partner of the money lenders. Edward the First. And for many years, one-third of the revenues of the British Treasury came from the fifty-percent interest in money-lending by the Jews.

But it got worse and worse. So much worse that when the Lords and Dukes kept killing the money-lenders, the King then said, "I declare myself the heir of all the money-lenders. If they're killed you have to pay me, because I'm his sole heir". That made so much trouble, because the King had to go out and collect the money with an army, so he told the Jews to get out. There were 15,000 of them, and they had to get out, and they went across to Ireland, and that's how Ireland got to be part of the United Kingdom.

When King Edward found out what they were doing, he decided to take Ireland for himself before someone else did. He sent Robert Southgard with a mercenary army and conquered Ireland. So, show me one time where a Jew was persecuted in any country because of his religion. It has never happened. It's always their impact on the political, social, or economic customs and traditions of the community in which they settle.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Question inaudible] Freedman: Yes, sir. Well, they say most of those things themselves. It was unnecessary for Benjamin Franklin to say it. Most of those things they say themselves. But Benjamin Franklin observed, and by hearsay understood, what was happening in Europe.

When Russia, in 920 was formed, and gradually surrounded the Khazar Kingdom, and absorbed them, most of the well-to-do Khazars fled to Western Europe and brought with them the very things to which you object and I object and a lot of other people object. The customs, the habits, the instincts with which they were endowed.

When Benjamin Franklin referred to them as Jews because that's the name that they went by, and when the Christians first heard that these people who were fleeing from Russia - who they were - that they had practiced this Talmudic faith - the Christians in Western Europe said, "They must be the remnants of the lost ten tribes!"

And Mr. Grutz, the greatest historian amongst the Jews, said that - and he's probably as good an authority on that subject as there is. So when Ben Franklin came to Europe in the 18th century, he already saw the results of what these people had done after they left their homeland. And every word of it is true they say it themselves. I can give you half a dozen books they've written in which they say the same thing: When they have money they become tyrants. And when they become defeated, they become ruthless. They're only barbarians. They're the descendants of Asiatic Mongols and they will do anything to accomplish their purpose.

What right did they have to take over Russia the way they did? The Czar had abdicated nine or ten months before that. There was no need for them. . . they were going to have a constitutional monarchy. But they didn't want that. When the constitutional monarchy was to assemble in November, they mowed them all down and established the Soviet Union.

There was no need for that. But they thought, "Now is the time", and if you you will look in the Encyclopedia Britannica under the word 'Bolshevism', you'll find the five laws there that Lenin put down for a successful revolution. One of them is, "Wait for the right time, and then give them everything you've got". It would pay you to read that.

You'd also find that Mr. Harold Blacktree, who wrote the article for the Encyclopedia Britannica states that the Jews conceived and created and cultivated the Communist movement. And that their energy made them the spearhead of the movement. Harold Blacktree wrote it and no one knew more about Communism than he. And the Encyclopedia Britannica for 25 years has been printing it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Question inaudible] Freedman: Well, I can't advocate that you do anything that's criminal, but I can tell you this. You can start what I call an endless chain. If you can get your friends to write, objectively, here is the statement: Mr. Kennedy's office gave me this himself. Mr. Smith, who succeeded Mr. Kennedy, took over his office - was in his office - and gave me this. He delivered this on the 25th, and it says here:

"For release to AM (that means morning papers), August 25th". "Israel is here to stay. It is a national commitment, special obligation of the Democratic Party. The White House must take the lead. American intervention. We will act promptly and decisively against any nation in the Middle East which attacks its neighbor. I propose that we make clear to both Israel and the Arab states our guarantee that we will act with whatever force and speed are necessary to halt any aggression by any nation".

Well, do you call the return of people to their homeland [the Arab Palestinians] aggression? Is Mr. Kennedy going to do that? Suppose three million Mexicans came into Texas and drove the six million Texans into the deserts of Arizona and New Mexico. Suppose these Mexicans were slipped in there armed - the Texans were disarmed - and one night they drove them all out of Texas and declared themselves the Republic of the Alamo. What would the United States say?

Would we say it's aggression for these Texans to try to get their homes back from the Mexican thieves? Suppose the Negroes in Alabama were secretly armed by the Soviets and overnight they rose up and drove all the whites into the swamps of Mississippi and Georgia and Florida. . . drove them out completely, and declared themselves the Republic of Ham, or the Republic of something-or-other. Would we call it aggression if these people, the whites of Alabama, tried to go back to their homes?

Would we. . . what would we think if the soviet Union said, "No, those Negroes now occupy them! Leave them there!", or "No, those Mexicans are in Texas. they declared themselves a sovereign state. Leave them there. You have plenty of room in Utah and Nevada. Settle somewhere else".

Would we call it aggression if the Alabama whites or the Texans wanted to go back to their homes? So now, you've go Read More Agree: Amanda

daniel le mouche , April 11, 2017 at 9:02 pm GMT \n
@Rob Green Rudy Dent is a disgraced FDNY ex-fireman who is shunned and hated by his former colleagues for desecrating the memory of those fallen on 9/11. He should rot in hell for the fabrications he is spewing about the deaths of his former brothers. a clown, an idiot you are. this man's words were beautiful. additionally, you lie that he is hated by his compatriots. this man should rot in hell for defending the memory of over 300 of his fallen brothers??? you are scum. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
Sam J. , April 11, 2017 at 9:36 pm GMT \n
@dninmore I always thought UA Flight 93 was supposed to hit Bldg 7. No evidence, just a hunch. I agree with that being very possible. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
Sam J. , April 11, 2017 at 9:37 pm GMT \n
@daniel le mouche Yes, and the Twin Towers came down at freefall speed too--all I needed, having knowledge of this basic principle of physics, to say, 'That's impossible.' It was and is, of course.
But there's no piece in their idiotic puzzle that makes any more sense. Building 7, the Pentagon where no plane was to be seen, Shanksville's crater, and debris scattered for miles, etc. etc. etc. etc.
Still, all the moles and trolls keep the petal to the metal, repeat, repeat--'Konspearissy Kkoooockss, HaHaHaHaHA'. " Still, all the moles and trolls keep the petal to the metal, repeat, repeat "

The Spoofers! Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

Sam J. , April 11, 2017 at 9:42 pm GMT \n
100 Words @2stateshmoostate Excellent article.
I think there are only two way we might end control of the US government by the traitors who perpetrated 911.
One is to expose them at their most vulnerable point and that is 911. That attack doesn't hold up to reason. There's an endless of inconsistencies and contradictions that I won't go into here. How to get the attention of the American people? I don't know. I don't understand why the leaders adversarial states don't bring up the obvious fact that 911 was a false flag operation. This in order to DE-legitimize or create suspicion towards the US government. This is the kind of story I would think RT news would publish, and maybe they will if hostilities escalate between Russia and the US.
The other way we might get rid of these traitors is how Argentina got rid of the Generals; A massive military defeat that causes even the mindless lumps that are most of Americans to set up and take notice.
Ultimately these traitors will go, it's only a question of when and how much damage they do in the mean time.
Also I want to congratulate Mr. Dinh on his accurate prediction in a previous article that Trump was just another neocon puppet. I always agreed with that, because the scum that did 911 were not about to let anyone they don't control, get elected president of the US. " One is to expose them at their most vulnerable point and that is 911 "

Agreed BIG TIME. The verdict is still not in on Trump. I'm not naive but miracles happen. If he hasn't made 9-11 public in a year then sigh we've been shafted again and other actions must be taken.

Sandy Hook is another good one. If all I'm hearing is true there's no bodies, no deaths and the school wasn't even being used. A hand full of FBI demanding documents could out the whole thing. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

dninmore , April 11, 2017 at 10:56 pm GMT \n
@anarchyst Let's see...the "camps" had libraries, theaters, medical facilities, dining, and other facilities for the "comforts" of the occupants. Doctors, dentists were also available to see to the inmates' medical needs. In fact, many times specialists were brought in for unusual, difficult medical cases. There were also strict rules for the guards that severely punished any misbehavior against the inmates.
If these camps were "killing facilities", why all the amenities?
In addition, the logistics of transferring people from camp to camp had to be enormous.
Germany did not have the fuel to waste on transferring inmates from facility to facility, the idea that the "camps" were "killing facilities" is preposterous. What holocaust ™ promoters never show is the interviews of the (honest) camp occupants who report that there were no "gas chambers" and that they were treated well. These interviews, although available, are never shown. Why?
The truth is, most people survived the camps, and went on to live the rest of their long lives without incident. It is only in the 1960s where "the powers that be" CREATED the holocaust ™ as a "cash cow" that "keeps on giving" to this very day. Compare the Nazi camps to Eisenhower's after the war. We know who the real Holocaust was preyed on. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
NoseytheDuke , April 11, 2017 at 11:17 pm GMT \n
100 Words @anarchyst Let's see...the "camps" had libraries, theaters, medical facilities, dining, and other facilities for the "comforts" of the occupants. Doctors, dentists were also available to see to the inmates' medical needs. In fact, many times specialists were brought in for unusual, difficult medical cases. There were also strict rules for the guards that severely punished any misbehavior against the inmates.
If these camps were "killing facilities", why all the amenities?
In addition, the logistics of transferring people from camp to camp had to be enormous.
Germany did not have the fuel to waste on transferring inmates from facility to facility, the idea that the "camps" were "killing facilities" is preposterous. What holocaust ™ promoters never show is the interviews of the (honest) camp occupants who report that there were no "gas chambers" and that they were treated well. These interviews, although available, are never shown. Why?
The truth is, most people survived the camps, and went on to live the rest of their long lives without incident. It is only in the 1960s where "the powers that be" CREATED the holocaust ™ as a "cash cow" that "keeps on giving" to this very day. Obviously a lot of people did perish in the camps as we've all seen footage countless times of piles of near-skeletal bodies being bulldozed into mass graves. It should be obvious to even a casual observer, if there could be such an individual, that these tragic deaths were clearly caused by starvation. This is seldom mentioned and all of these scenes took place towards the very end of the conflict after long range fuel tanks and the Norden bombsight had made possible accurate targeting of strategic supply lines causing massive starvation for everyone, but obviously much worse in the camps. Tragic every way one looks at it. Read More
Bob Weber , April 12, 2017 at 1:24 am GMT \n
@NoseytheDuke Linh Dinh, this is surely your best piece in ages, if not ever. Well done. Rudy Dent truly loves America and America should love him for that. Rudy Dent was not present for the collapses of the Twin Towers. He suddenly remembered all the "damning evidence" about 9/11 only in 204. He's also a Hitler worshipper and Holocaust Denier. See for yourself:

( https://www.facebook.com/rudy.vulcan/posts/1688487274752499 ) Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

Amanda , April 12, 2017 at 11:40 am GMT \n
@republic A Jewish Defector Warns America:

Benjamin Freedman Speaks on Zionism

This should do it! For the second and last time we are updating the transcript of Ben Freedman's 1961 speech at the Willard Hotel.

The piece has been posted for over a year now. A few months ago, a person challenged the authenticity of the transcript, because his version stated that Samuel Untermeyer had used the Columbia Broadcasting studios when he declared a worldwide boycott against Germany -- in his words: 'A Holy War'. We could not debate the issue, having never heard the actual recording of Mr. Freedman's speech. Today, I discovered that we have a cassette tape of the speech, so I listened to the entire tape while reading the posted transcript. According to Mr. Freedman the radio station used by Untermeyer was, in fact, ABC.

There had also been some simple rearrangements of sentence structure in that transcript, and a line or two omitted in places. For the sake of authenticity, the corrections have been made. The transcript is now word for word from Mr. Freedman's speech.

The original transcriber had 'tidied up' Mr. Freedman's responses during the Q&A period, omitting superfluous and repetitious words. For the most part, we've left the tidied up version as it was, since it didn't change the response, and actually helped to clarify Mr. Freedman's answers. If the names were changed, he could have been making that speech yesterday. -- Jackie -- April 8, 2003

Here is our first update notice, about a year ago:

The original posting of this speech was taken from an existing web site. In going through our files we recently discovered a full transcript of the speech and realized the original posting was not complete. Here is the transcript from our files, with additional text at the beginning - some within the body of the speech - and a question and answer section at the end that had not been included in the original posting. There will be further postings from other writers and quotes that will confirm much of what Mr. Freedman said here. Many of you will see the truth of it, as it stands. -- Jackie --

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The Truth will stand on its own merit

A Jewish Defector Warns America:

Benjamin Freedman Speaks

by Benjamin H. Freedman

Introductory Note -- Benjamin H. Freedman was one of the most intriguing and amazing individuals of the 20th century.

Mr. Freedman, born in 1890, was a successful Jewish businessman of New York City who was at one time the principal owner of the Woodbury Soap Company. He broke with organized Jewry after the Judeo-Communist victory of 1945, and spent the remainder of his life and the great preponderance of his considerable fortune, at least 2.5 million dollars, exposing the Jewish tyranny which has enveloped the United States.

Mr. Freedman knew what he was talking about because he had been an insider at the highest levels of Jewish organizations and Jewish machinations to gain power over our nation. Mr. Freedman was personally acquainted with Bernard Baruch, Samuel Untermyer, Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt, Joseph Kennedy, and John F. Kennedy, and many more movers and shakers of our times.

This speech was given before a patriotic audience in 1961 at the Willard Hotel in Washington, D.C., on behalf of Conde McGinley's patriotic newspaper of that time, Common Sense. Though in some minor ways this wide-ranging and extemporaneous speech has become dated, Mr. Freedman's essential message to us -- his warning to the West -- is more urgent than ever before. -- K.A.S. ---

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A CHRISTIAN VIEW OF THE HOLOCAUST

Ladies and gentlemen, you are about to hear a very frightening speech. This speech is an explanation of the plans now being laid to throw the United States into a third world war. It was made a short time ago before a large group in the Congressional `Room of the Willard Hotel in Washington, D.C. Both the speech and the question and answer period later so electrified the audience that a group of patriots has transferred it to two long-playing records which you may buy to play for friends, clubs, and your church group in your community. The speaker is Mr. Benjamin Freedman, noted authority on Zionism and all of its schemes. Mr. Freedman is a former Jew, and I mean a FORMER Jew. He has fought the Communist world conspiracy tooth and nail, and stands today as a leading American patriot. We now take you to the speaker's platform to present Benjamin Freedman.

(applause)

[Freedman's speech]

What I intend to tell you tonight is something that you have never been able to learn from any other source, and what I tell you now concerns not only you, but your children and the survival of this country and Christianity. I'm not here just to dish up a few facts to send up your blood pressure, but I'm here to tell you things that will help you preserve what you consider the most sacred things in the world: the liberty, and the freedom, and the right to live as Christians, where you have a little dignity, and a little right to pursue the things that your conscience tells you are the right things, as Christians.

Now, first of all, I'd like to tell you that on August 25th 1960 -- that was shortly before elections -- Senator Kennedy, who is now the President of the United States, went to New York, and delivered an address to the Zionist Organization of America. In that address, to reduce it to its briefest form, he stated that he would use the armed forces of the United States to preserve the existence of the regime set up in Palestine by the Zionists who are now in occupation of that area.

In other words, Christian boys are going to be yanked out of their homes, away from their families, and sent abroad to fight in Palestine against the Christian and Moslem Arabs who merely want to return to their homes. And these Christian boys are going to be asked to shoot to kill these innocent [Arab Palestinians] people who only want to follow out fifteen resolutions passed by the United Nations in the last twelve years calling upon the Zionists to allow these people to return to their homes.

Now, when United States troops appear in the Middle East to fight with the Zionists as their allies to prevent the return of these people who were evicted from their homes in the 1948 armed insurrection by the Zionists who were transplanted there from Eastern Europe... when that happens, the United States will trigger World War III.

You say, when will that take place? The answer is, as soon as the difficulty between France and Algeria has been settled, that will take place. As soon as France and Algeria have been settled, that will take place. As soon as France and Algeria have settled their difficulty, and the Arab world, or the Moslem world, has no more war on their hands with France, they are going to move these people back into their homes, and when they do that and President kennedy sends your sons to fight over there to help the crooks hold on to what they stole from innocent men, women and children, we will trigger World War III; and when that starts you can be sure we cannot emerge from that war a victor. We are going to lose that war because there is not one nation in the world that will let one of their sons fight with us for such a cause.

I know and speak to these ambassadors in Washington and the United Nations -- and of the ninety-nine nations there, I've consulted with maybe seventy of them -- and when we go to war in Palestine to help the thieves retain possession of what they have stolen from these innocent people we're not going to have a man there to fight with us as our ally.

And who will these people have supporting them, you ask. Well, four days after President Kennedy -- or he was then Senator Kennedy -- made that statement on August 28, 1960, the Arab nations called a meeting in Lebanon and there they decided to resurrect, or reactivate, the government of Palestine, which has been dormant more or less, since the 1948 armed insurrection by the Zionists.

Not only that... they ordered the creation of the Palestine Army, and they are now drilling maybe a half a million soldiers in that area of the world to lead these people back to their homeland. With them, they have as their allies all the nations of what is termed the Bandung Conference Group. That includes the Soviet Union and every Soviet Union satellite. It includes Red China; it includes every independent country in Asia and Africa; or eighty percent of the world's total population. Eighty percent of the world's population. Four out of five human beings on the face of the earth will be our enemies at war with us. And not alone are they four out of five human beings now on the face of this earth, but they are the non-Christian population of the world and they are the non-Caucasians... the non-white nations of the world, and that's what we face.

And what is the reason? The reason is that here in the United States, the Zionists and their co-religionists have complete control of our government. For many reasons too many and too complex to go into here at this -- time I'll be glad to answer questions, however, to support that statement -- the Zionists and their co-religionists rule this United States as though they were the absolute monarchs of this country.

Now, you say, 'well, that's a very broad statement to make', but let me show what happened while you were -- I don't want to wear that out --- let me show what happened while WE were all asleep. I'm including myself with you. We were all asleep. What happened?

World War I broke out in the summer of 1914. Nineteen-hundred and fourteen was the year in which World War One broke out. There are few people here my age who remember that. Now that war was waged on one side by Great Britain, France, and Russia; and on the other side by Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Turkey. What happened?

Within two years Germany had won that war: not alone won it nominally, but won it actually. The German submarines, which were a surprise to the world, had swept all the convoys from the Atlantic Ocean, and Great Britain stood there without ammunition for her soldiers, stood there with one week's food supply facing her -- and after that, starvation.

At that time, the French army had mutinied. They lost 600,000 of the flower of French youth in the defense of Verdun on the Somme. The Russian army was defecting. They were picking up their toys and going home, they didn't want to play war anymore, they didn't like the Czar. And the Italian army had collapsed.

Now Germany -- not a shot had been fired on the German soil. Not an enemy soldier had crossed the border into Germany. And yet, here was Germany offering England peace terms. They offered England a negotiated peace on what the lawyers call a status quo ante basis. That means: "Let's call the war off, and let everything be as it was before the war started."

Well, England, in the summer of 1916 was considering that. Seriously! They had no choice. It was either accepting this negotiated peace that Germany was magnanimously offering them, or going on with the war and being totally defeated.

While that was going on, the Zionists in Germany, who represented the Zionists from Eastern Europe, went to the British War Cabinet and -- I am going to be brief because this is a long story, but I have all the documents to prove any statement that I make if anyone here is curious, or doesn't believe what I'm saying is at all possible -- the Zionists in London went to the British war cabinet and they said: "Look here. You can yet win this war. You don't have to give up. You don't have to accept the negotiated peace offered to you now by Germany. You can win this war if the United States will come in as your ally."

The United States was not in the war at that time. We were fresh; we were young; we were rich; we were powerful. They [Zionists] told England: "We will guarantee to bring the United States into the war as your ally, to fight with you on your side, if you will promise us Palestine after you win the war."

In other words, they made this deal: "We will get the United States into this war as your ally. The price you must pay us is Palestine after you have won the war and defeated Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Turkey."

Now England had as much right to promise Palestine to anybody, as the United States would have to promise Japan to Ireland for any reason whatsoever. It's absolutely absurd that Great Britain -- that never had any connection or any interest or any right in what is known as Palestine -- should offer it as coin of the realm to pay the Zionists for bringing the United States into the war.

However, they made that promise, in October of 1916. October, nineteen hundred and sixteen. And shortly after that -- I don't know how many here remember it -- the United States, which was almost totally pro-German -- totally pro-German -- because the newspapers here were controlled by Jews, the bankers were Jews, all the media of mass communications in this country were controlled by Jews, and they were pro-German because their people, in the majority of cases came from Germany, and they wanted to see Germany lick the Czar.

The Jews didn't like the Czar, and they didn't want Russia to win this war. So the German bankers -- the German-Jews -- Kuhn Loeb and the other big banking firms in the United States refused to finance France or England to the extent of one dollar. They stood aside and they said: "As long as France and England are tied up with Russia, not one cent!" But they poured money into Germany, they fought with Germany against Russia, trying to lick the Czarist regime.

Now those same Jews, when they saw the possibility of getting Palestine, they went to England and they made this deal. At that time, everything changed, like the traffic light that changes from red to green. Where the newspapers had been all pro-German, where they'd been telling the people of the difficulties that Germany was having fighting Great Britain commercially and in other respects, all of a sudden the Germans were no good. They were villains. They were Huns. They were shooting Red Cross nurses. They were cutting off babies' hands. And they were no good.

Well, shortly after that, Mr. Wilson declared war on Germany.

The Zionists in London sent these cables to the United States, to Justice Brandeis: "Go to work on President Wilson. We're getting from England what we want. Now you go to work, and you go to work on President Wilson and get the United States into the war." And that did happen. That's how the United States got into the war. We had no more interest in it; we had no more right to be in it than we have to be on the moon tonight instead of in this room.

Now the war -- World War One -- in which the United States participated had absolutely no reason to be our war. We went in there -- we were railroaded into it -- if I can be vulgar, we were suckered into -- that war merely so that the Zionists of the world could obtain Palestine. Now, that is something that the people in the United States have never been told. They never knew why we went into World War One. Now, what happened?

After we got into the war, the Zionists went to Great Britain and they said: "Well, we performed our part of the agreement. Let's have something in writing that shows that you are going to keep your bargain and give us Palestine after you win the war." Because they didn't know whether the war would last another year or another ten years. So they started to work out a receipt. The receipt took the form of a letter, and it was worded in very cryptic language so that the world at large wouldn't know what it was all about. And that was called the Balfour Declaration.

The Balfour Declaration was merely Great Britain's promise to pay the Zionists what they had agreed upon as a consideration for getting the United States into the war. So this great Balfour Declaration, that you hear so much about, is just as phony as a three dollar bill. And I don't think I could make it more emphatic than that.

Now, that is where all the trouble started. The United States went in the war. The United States crushed Germany. We went in there, and it's history. You know what happened. Now, when the war was ended, and the Germans went to Paris, to the Paris Peace Conference in 1919, there were 117 Jews there, as a delegation representing the Jews, headed by Bernard Baruch. I was there: I ought to know. Now what happened?

The Jews at that peace conference, when they were cutting up Germany and parceling out Europe to all these nations that claimed a right to a certain part of European territory, the Jews said, "How about Palestine for us?" And they produced, for the first time to the knowledge of the Germans, this Balfour Declaration. So the Germans, for the first time realized, "Oh, that was the game! That's why the United States came into the war." And the Germans for the first time realized that they were defeated, they suffered this terrific reparation that was slapped onto them, because the Zionists wanted Palestine and they were determined to get it at any cost.

Now, that brings us to another very interesting point. When the Germans realized this, they naturally resented it. Up to that time, the Jews had never been better off in any country in the world than they had been in Germany.

You had Mr. Rathenau there, who was maybe 100 times as important in industry and finance as is Bernard Baruch in this country. You had Mr. Balin, who owned the two big steamship lines, the North German Lloyd's and the Hamburg-American Lines. You had Mr. Bleichroder, who was the banker for the Hohenzollern family. You had the Warburgs in Hamburg, who were the big merchant bankers -- the biggest in the world. The Jews were doing very well in Germany. No question about that. Now, the Germans felt: "Well, that was quite a sellout."

It was a sellout that I can best compare -- suppose the United States was at war today with the Soviet Union. And we were winning. And we told the Soviet Union: "Well, let's quit. We offer you peace terms. Let's forget the whole thing." And all of a sudden Red China came into the war as an ally of the Soviet Union. And throwing them into the war brought about our defeat. A crushing defeat, with reparations the likes of which man's imagination cannot encompass.

Imagine, then, after that defeat, if we found out that it was the Chinese in this country, our Chinese citizens, who all the time we thought they were loyal citizens working with us, were selling us out to the Soviet Union and that it was through them that Red China was brought into the war against us. How would we feel, in the United States against Chinese? I don't think that one of them would dare show his face on any street. There wouldn't be lampposts enough, convenient, to take care of them. Imagine how we would feel.

Well, that's how the Germans felt towards these Jews. "We've been so nice to them"; and from 1905 on, when the first Communist revolution in Russia failed, and the Jews had to scramble out of Russia, they all went to Germany. And Germany gave them refuge. And they were treated very nicely. And here they sold Germany down the river for no reason at all other than they wanted Palestine as a so-called "Jewish commonwealth."

Now, Nahum Sokolow -- all the great leaders, the big names that you read about in connection with Zionism today -- they, in 1919, 1920, '21, '22, and '23, they wrote in all their papers -- and the press was filled with their statements -- that "the feeling against the Jews in Germany is due to the fact that they realized that this great defeat was brought about by our intercession and bringing the United States into the war against them."

The Jews themselves admitted that. It wasn't that the Germans in 1919 discovered that a glass of Jewish blood tasted better than Coca-Cola or Muenschner Beer. There was no religious feeling. There was no sentiment against those people merely on account of their religious belief. It was all political. It was economic. It was anything but religious.

Nobody cared in Germany whether a Jew went home and pulled down the shades and said "Shema' Yisrael" or "Our Father." No one cared in Germany any more than they do in the United States. Now this feeling that developed later in Germany was due to one thing: that the Germans held the Jews responsible for their crushing defeat, for no reason at all, because World War One was started against Germany for no reason for which they [Germans] were responsible. They were guilty of nothing. Only of being successful. They built up a big navy. They built up world trade.

You must remember, Germany, at the time of Napoleon, at the time of the French Revolution, what was the German Reich consisted of 300 -- three hundred! -- small city-states, principalities, dukedoms, and so forth. Three hundred little separate political entities. And between that time, between the period of. . . between Napoleon and Bismarck, they were consolidated into one state. And within 50 years after that time they became one of the world's great powers. Their navy was rivalling Great Britain's, they were doing business all over the world, they could undersell anybody and make better products. And what happened? What happened as a result of that?

There was a conspiracy between England, France, and Russia that: "We must slap down Germany", because there isn't one historian in the world that can find a valid reason why those three countries decided to wipe Germany off the map politically. Now, what happened after that?

When Germany realized that the Jews were responsible for her defeat, they naturally resented it. But not a hair on the head of any Jew was harmed. Not a single hair. Professor Tansill, of Georgetown University, who had access to all the secret papers of the State Department, wrote in his book, and quoted from a State Department document written by Hugo Schoenfelt, a Jew who Cordell Hull sent to Europe in 1933 to investigate the so-called camps of political prisoners. And he wrote back that he found them in very fine condition.

They were in excellent shape; everybody treated well. And they were filled with Communists. Well, a lot of them were Jews, because the Jews happened to be maybe 98 per cent of the Communists in Europe at that time. And there were some priests there, and ministers, and labor leaders, Masons, and others who had international affiliations.

Now, the Jews sort of tried to keep the lid on this fact. They didn't want the world to really understand that they had sold out Germany, and that the Germans resented that.

So they did take appropriate action against them [against the Jews]. They. . . shall I say, discriminated against them wherever they could? They shunned them. The same as we would the Chinese, or the Negroes, or the Catholics, or anyone in this country who had sold us out to an enemy and brought about our defeat.

Now, after a while, the Jews of the world didn't know what to do, so they called a meeting in Amsterdam. Jews from every country in the world attended in July 1933. And they said to Germany: "You fire Hitler! And you put every Jew back into his former position, whether he was a Communist, no matter what he was. You can't treat us that way! And we, the Jews of the world, are calling upon you, and serving this ultimatum upon you." Well, the Germans told them. . . you can imagine. So what did they [the Jews] do?

They broke up, and Samuel Untermyer, if the name means anything to people here. . . (You want to ask a question? --- Uh, there were no Communists in Germany at that time. they were called 'Social Democrats.)

Well, I don't want to go by what they were called. We're now using English words, and what they were called in Germany is not very material. . . but they were Communists, because in 1917, the Communists took over Germany for a few days. Rosa Luxembourg and Karl Liebknecht, and a group of Jews in Germany took over the government for three days. In fact, when the Kaiser ended the war, he fled to Holland because he thought the Communists were going to take over Germany as they did Russia, and that he was going to meet the same fate that the Czar did in Russia. So he left and went to Holland for safety and for security.

Now, at that time, when the Communist threat in Germany was quashed, it was quiet, the Jews were working, still trying to get back into their former -- their status -- and the Germans fought them in every way they could, without hurting a hair on anyone's head. The same as one group, the Prohibitionists, fought the people who were interested in liquor, and they didn't fight one another with pistols, they did it every way they could.

Well, that's the way they were fighting the Jews in Germany. And, at that time, mind you, there were 80 to 90 million Germans and there were only 460,000 Jews. . . less than one half of one percent of Germany were Jews. And yet, they controlled all of the press, they controlled most of the economy, because they had come in and with cheap money -- you know the way the Mark was devalued -- they bought up practically everything.

Well, in 1933 when Germany refused to surrender, mind you, to the World Conference of Jews in Amsterdam, they broke up and Mr. Untermeyer came back to the United States -- who was the head of the American delegation and the president of the whole conference -- and he went from the steamer to ABC and made a radio broadcast throughout the United States in which he said:

"The Jews of the world now declare a Holy War against Germany. We are now engaged in a sacred conflict against the Germans. And we are going to starve them into surrender. We are going to use a world-wide boycott against them, that will destroy them because they are dependent upon their export business."

And it is a fact that two thirds of Germany's food supply had to be imported, and it could only be imported with the proceeds of what they exported. Their labor. So if Germany could not export, two thirds of Germany's population would have to starve. There just was not enough food for more than one third of the population.

Now in this declaration, which I have here, it was printed on page -- a whole page -- in the New York Times on August 7, 1933, Mr. Samuel Untermyer boldly stated that: "this economic boycott is our means of self-defense. President Roosevelt has advocated its use in the NRA" . [National Recovery Administration] -- which some of you may remember, where everybody was to be boycotted unless they followed the rules laid down by the New Deal, which of course was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court at that time.

Nevertheless, the Jews of the world declared a boycott against Germany, and it was so effective that you couldn't find one thing in any store anywhere in the world with the words "made in Germany" on it.

In fact, an executive of the Woolworth Company told me that they had to dump millions of dollars worth of crockery and dishes into the river; that their stores were boycotted. If anyone came in and found a dish marked "made in Germany," they were picketed with signs: "Hitler", "murderer", and so forth, and like -- something like these sit-ins that are taking place in the South.

R. H. Macy, which is controlled by a family called Strauss who also happen to be Jews. . . a woman found stockings there which came from Chemnitz, marked "made in Germany". Well, they were cotton stockings. They may have been there 20 years, because since I've been observing women's legs in the last twenty years, I haven't seen a pair with cotton stockings on them. So Macy! I saw Macy boycotted, with hundreds of people walking around with signs saying "MURDERS" and "HITLERITES", and so forth.

Now up to that time, not one hair on the head of any Jew had been hurt in Germany. There was no suffering, there was no starvation, there was no murder, there was nothing.

Now, that. . . naturally, the Germans said, "Why, who are these people to declare a boycott against us and throw all our people out of work, and our industries come to a standstill? Who are they to do that to us?" They naturally resented it. Certainly they painted swastikas on stores owned by Jews.

Why should a German go in and give their money to a storekeeper who was part of a boycott who was going to starve Germany into surrender into the Jews of the world, who were going to dictate who their premier or chancellor was to be? Well, it was ridiculous.

That continued for some time, and it wasn't until 1938, when a young Jew from Poland walked into the German embassy in Paris and shot one of the officials [a German official] that the Germans really started to get rough with the Jews in Germany. And you found them then breaking windows and having street fights and so forth.

Now, for anyone to say that -- I don't like to use the word 'anti-Semitism' because it's meaningless, but it means something to you still, so I'll have to use it -- the only reason that there was any feeling in Germany against Jews was that they were responsible: number one, for World War One; number two, for this world-wide boycott, and number three -- did I say for World War One, they were responsible? For the boycott -- and also for World War II, because after this thing got out of hand, it was absolutely necessary for the Jews and Germany to lock horns in a war to see which one was going to survive.

In the meanwhile, I had lived in Germany, and I knew that the Germans had decided [that] Europe is going to be Christian or Communist: there is no in between. It's going to be Christian or it's going to be Communist. And the Germans decided: "We're going to keep it Christian if possible". And they started to re-arm.

And there intention was -- by that time the United States had recognized the Soviet Union, which they did in November, 1933 -- the Soviet Union was becoming very powerful, and Germany realized: "Well, our turn is going to come soon, unless we are strong." The same as we in this country are saying today, "Our turn is going to come soon, unless we are strong."

And our government is spending 83 or 84 billion dollars of your money for defense, they say. Defense against whom? Defense against 40,000 little Jews in Moscow that took over Russia, and then, in their devious ways, took over control of many other governments of the world.

Now, for this country to now be on the verge of a Third World War, from which we cannot emerge a victor, is something that staggers my imagination. I know that nuclear bombs are measured in terms of megatons. A megaton is a term used to describe one million tons of TNT. One million tons of TNT is a megaton. Now, our nuclear bombs have a capacity of 10 megatons, or 10 million tons of TNT. That was when they were first developed five or six years ago. Now, the nuclear bombs that are being developed have a capacity of 200 megatons, and God knows how many megatons the nuclear bombs of the Soviet Union have.

So, what do we face now? If we trigger a world war that may develop into a nuclear war, humanity is finished. And why will it take place? It will take place because Act III. . . the curtain goes up on Act III. Act I was World War I. Act II was World War II. Act III is going to be World War III.

The Jews of the world, the Zionists and their co-religionists everywhere, are determined that they are going to again use the United States to help them permanently retain Palestine as their foothold for their world government. Now, that is just as true as I am standing here, because not alone have I read it, but many here have read it, and it's known all over the world.

Now, what are we going to do? The life you save may be your son's. Your boys may be on their way to that war tonight; and you you don't know it any more than you knew that in 1916 in London the Zionists made a deal with the British War Cabinet to send your sons to war in Europe. Did you know it at that time? Not a person in the United States knew it. You weren't permitted to know it.

Who knew it? President Wilson knew it. Colonel House knew it. Other 's knew it. Did I know it? I had a pretty good idea of what was going on: I was liaison to Henry Morgenthau, Sr., in the 1912 campaign when President Wilson was elected, and there was talk around the office there.

I was 'confidential man' to Henry Morgenthau, Sr., who was chairman of the Finance Committee, and I was liaison between him and Rollo Wells, the treasurer. So I sat in these meetings with President Wilson at the head of the table, and all the others, and I heard them drum into President Wilson's brain the graduated income tax and what has become the Federal Reserve, and also indoctrinate him with the Zionist movement.

Justice Brandeis and President Wilson were just as close as the two fingers on this hand, and President Woodrow Wilson was just as incompetent when it came to determining what was going on as a newborn baby. And that's how they got us into World War I, while we all slept.

Now, at this moment... at this moment they may be planning this World War III, in which we don't stand a chance even if they don't use nuclear bombs. How can the United States -- about five percent of the world -- go out and fight eighty to ninety percent of the world on their home ground? How can we do it... send our boys over there to be slaughtered? For what? So the Jews can have Palestine as their 'commonwealth'? They've fooled you so much that you don't know whether you're coming or going.

Now any judge, when he charges a jury, says, "Gentlemen, any witness that you find has told a single lie, you can disregard all his testimony." That is correct. I don't know from what state you come, but in New York state that is the way a judge addresses a jury. If that witness said one lie, disregard his testimony.

Now, what are the facts about the Jews?

The Jews -- I call them Jews to you, because they are known as Jews. I don't call them Jews. I refer to them as so-called Jews, because I know what they are. If Jesus was a Jew, there isn't a Jew in the world today, and if those people are Jews, certainly our Lord and Savior was not one of them, and I can prove that.

Now what happened? The eastern European Jews, who form 92 per cent of the world's population of those people who call themselves Jews, were originally Khazars.

They were a warlike tribe that lived deep in the heart of Asia. And they were so warlike that even the Asiatics drove them out of Asia into eastern Europe -- and to reduce this so you don't get too confused about the history of Eastern Europe -- they set up this big Khazar kingdom: 800,000 square miles. Only, there was no Russia, there were no other countries, and the Khazar kingdom was the biggest country in all Europe -- so big and so powerful that when the other monarchs wanted to go to war, the Khazars would lend them 40,000 soldiers. That's how big and powerful they were.

Now, they were phallic worshippers, which is filthy. I don't want to go into the details of that now. It was their religion the way it was the religion of many other Pagans or Barbarians elsewhere in the world.

Now, the [Khazar] king became so disgusted with the degeneracy of his kingdom that he decided to adopt a so-called monotheistic faith -- either Christianity, Islam -- the Moslem faith -- or what is known today as Judaism -- really Talmudism. So, like spinning a top and calling out "eeny, meeny, miney, moe," he picked out so-called Judaism. And that became the state religion.

He sent down to the Talmudic schools of Pumbedita and Sura and brought up thousands of these rabbis with their teachings, and opened up synagogues and schools in his kingdom of 800,000 people -- 800,000 thousand square miles -- and maybe ten to twenty million people; and they became what we call Jews. There wasn't one of them that had an ancestor that ever put a toe in the Holy Land, not only in Old Testament history, but back to the beginning of time. Not one of them! And yet they come to the Christians and they ask us to support their armed insurrection in Palestine by saying:

"Well, you want to certainly help repatriate God's chosen people to their Promised Land, their ancestral homeland, It's your Christian duty. We gave you one of our boys as your Lord and Savior. You now go to church on Sunday, and kneel and you worship a Jew, and we're Jews."

Well, they were pagan Khazars who were converted just the same as the Irish [were converted]. And it's just as ridiculous to call them "people of the Holy Land," as it would be. . . there are 54 million Chinese Moslems. Fifty four million! And, Mohammed only died in 620 A.D., so in that time, 54 million Chinese have accepted Islam as their religious belief.

Now imagine, in China, 2,000 miles away from Arabia, where the city of Mecca is located, where Mohammed was born. . . imagine if the 54 million Chinese called themselves 'Arabs'. Imagine! Why, you'd say they're lunatics. Anyone who believes that those 54 million Chinese are Arabs must be crazy. All they did was adopt as a religious faith; a belief that had its origin in Mecca, in Arabia.

The same as the Irish. When the Irish became Christians, nobody dumped them in the ocean and imported from the Holy Land a new crop of inhabitants that were Christians. They weren't different people. They were the same people, but they had accepted Christianity as a religious faith.

Now, these Pagans, these Asiatics, these Turko-Finns. . . they were a Mongoloid race who were forced out of Asia into eastern Europe. They likewise, because their king took the faith -- Talmudic faith -- they had no choice. Just the same as in Spain: If the king was Catholic, everybody had to be a Catholic. If not, you had to get out of Spain. So everybody -- they lived on the land just like the trees and the bushes; a human being belonged to the land under their feudal system -- so they [Khazars] all became what we call today, Jews!

Now imagine how silly it was for the Christians. . . for the great Christian countries of the world to say, "We're going to use our power, our prestige to repatriate God's chosen people to their ancestral homeland, their Promised Land."

Now, could there be a bigger lie than that? Could there be a bigger lie than that?

And because they control the newspapers, the magazines, the radio, the television, the book publishing business, they have the ministers in the pulpit, they have the politicians on the soap boxes talking the same language . . . so naturally you'd believe black is white if you heard it often enough. You wouldn't call black black anymore -- you'd start to call black white. And nobody could blame you.

Now, that is one of the great lies. . . that is the foundation of all the misery that has befallen the world. Because after two wars fought in Europe -- World War I and World War II -- if it wasn't possible for them to live in peace and harmony with the people in Europe, like their brethren are living in the United States, what were the two wars fought for? Did they have to -- like you flush the toilet -- because they couldn't get along, did they have to say, "Well, we're going back to our homeland and you Christians can help us"?

I can't understand yet how the Christians in Europe could have been that dumb because every theologian, every history teacher, knew the things that I'm telling you. But, they naturally bribed them, shut them up with money, stuffed their mouths with money, and now. . . I don't care whether you know all this or not. It doesn't make any difference to me whether you know all these facts or not, but it does make a difference to me. I've got, in my family, boys that will have to be in the next war, and I don't want them to go and fight and die... like they died in Korea. Like they died in Japan. Like they've died all over the world. For what?

To help crooks hold on to what they stole from innocent people who had been in peaceful possession of that land, those farms, those homes for hundreds and maybe thousands of years? Is that why the United States must go to war? Because the Democratic Party wants New York State -- the electoral vote? Illinois, the electoral vote? And Pennsylvania, the electoral vote?... which are controlled by the Zionists and their co-religionists?. . . the balance of power?

In New York City there are 400,000 members of the liberal party, all Zionists and their co-religionists. And New York State went for Kennedy by 400,000 votes. Now, I don't blame Mr. Kennedy. I'm fond of Mr. Kennedy. I think he's a great man. I think he can really pull us out of this trouble if we get the facts to him. And I believe he knows a great deal more than his appointments indicate he knows. He's playing with the enemy. Like when you go fishing, you've got to play with the fish. Let 'em out and pull 'em in. Let 'em out and pull 'em in. But knowing Mr. Kennedy's father, and how well informed he is on this whole subject, and how close Kennedy is to his father, I don't think Mr. Kennedy is totally in the dark.

But I do think that it is the duty of every mother, every loyal Christian , every person that regards the defense of this country as a sacred right, that they communicate -- not with their congressman, not with their senator, but with President Kennedy. And tell him, "I do not think you should send my boy, or our boys, wearing the uniform of the United States of America, and under the flag that you see here, our red, white and blue, to fight there to help keep in the hands of these that which they have stolen". I think everyone should not alone write once, but keep writing and get your friends to write.

Now, I could go on endlessly, and tell you these things to support what I have just asked you to do. But I don't think it's necessary to do that. You're above the average group in intelligence and I don't think it's necessary to impress this any more.

But. . . I want to tell you one more thing. You talk about... "Oh, the Jews. Why the Jews? Christianity. Why, we got Christianity from the Jews and the Jews gave us Jesus, and the Jews gave us our religion". But do you know that on the day of atonement that you think is so sacred to them, that on that day... and I was one of them! This is not hearsay. I'm not here to be a rabble-rouser. I'm here to give you facts.

When, on the Day of Atonement, you walk into a synagogue, the very first prayer that you recite, you stand -- and it's the only prayer for which you stand -- and you repeat three times a short prayer. The Kol Nidre. In that prayer, you enter into an agreement with God Almighty that any oath, vow, or pledge that you may make during the next twelve months -- any oath, vow or pledge that you may take during the next twelve months shall be null and void.

The oath shall not be an oath; the vow shall not be a vow; the pledge shall not be a pledge. They shall have no force and effect, and so forth and so on.

And further than that, the Talmud teaches: "Don't forget -- whenever you take an oath, vow, and pledge -- remember the Kol Nidre prayer that you recited on the Day of Atonement, and that exempts you from fulfilling that".

How much can you depend on their loyalty? You can depend upon their loyalty as much as the Germans depended upon it in 1916.

And we're going to suffer the same fate as Germany suffered, and for the same reason. You can't depend upon something as insecure as the leadership that is not obliged to respect an oath, vow or pledge. Now I could go on and recite many other things to you, but I would have a little respect for your time, and you want to really, uh, get through with all of this. Tomorrow's going to be a long day.

Now I want to say one thing. You ask me. . . well, you think to yourself: "well how did this fellow get mixed up in this the way he got mixed up in it." Well, I opened my mouth in 1945, and I took big pages in newspapers and tried to tell the American people what I'm telling you. And one newspaper after another refused the advertisement. And when I couldn't find a newspaper to take them -- I paid cash, not credit -- what happened? My lawyer told me, "There's an editor over in Jersey with a paper who will take your announcement". So, I was brought together with Mr. McGinley, and that's how I met him.

So somebody told me the lawyer who introduced me, who was the son of the Dean of the Methodist Bishop, he said: "Well, I think he's a little anti-Semitic. I don't know whether I can get him over here. So he brought him over to my apartment and we hit it off wonderfully, and have since then.

Now, I say this, and I say it without any qualifications. I say it without any reservations. And I say it without any hesitation. . . if it wasn't for the work that Mr. Conley McGinley did with "Common Sense" -- he's been sending out from 1,800,000 to 2,000,000 every year -- if it wasn't for the work he's been doing sending those out for fifteen years now, we would already be a communist country. Nobody has done what he did to light fires. Many of the other active persons in this fight learned all about if for the first time through "Common Sense".

Now, I have been very active in helping him all I could. I'm not as flush as I was. I cannot go on spending the money. . . I'm not going to take up a collection. Don't worry. I see five people getting up to leave. (laughter)

I haven't got the money that I used to spend. I used to print a quarter of a million of them out of my own pocket and send them out. Mr. McGinley, when I first met him, had maybe 5,000 printed and circulated them locally. So I said, "With what you know and what I know, we can really do a good job". So I started printing in outside shops of big newspaper companies, a quarter of a million, and paid for them. Well, there's always a bottom to the barrel. I suppose we've all reached that at times.

I'm not so poor that I can't live without working and that's what worries the Anti-Defamation League. I can just get by without going and asking for a job or getting on the bread line. But Mr. McGinley is working. He's sick and he's going at this stronger than ever. And all I want to say is that they want to close up "Common Sense" more than any other single thing in the whole world, as a death-blow to the fight Christians are making to survive.

So I just want to tell you this. All they do is circulate rumors: "Mr. Benjamin H. Freedman is the wealthy backer of 'Common Sense'." The reason they do that is to discourage the people in the United States: don't send any money to Common Sense. They don't need it. The've got the wealthy Mr. Freedman as a backer. That all has strategy. They don't want to advertise me so that people that have real estate or securities to sell will come and call on me. They just want people to lay off "Common Sense". And all I'm telling you is, I do try to help him, but I haven't been able to. And I will be very honest. One thing I won't do is lie. In the last year I've had so much sickness in my family that I could not give him one dollar.

How he's managed to survive, I don't know. God alone knows. And he must be in God's care because how he's pulled through his sickness and with his financial troubles, I don't know. But that press is working. . . and every two weeks about a hundred or a hundred-fifty-thousand of "Common Sense" go out with a new message. And if that information could be multiplied. . . if people that now get it could buy ten or twenty five, or fifty, give them around. Plow that field. Sow those seeds, you don't know which will take root, but for God's sake, this is our last chance.

[Freedman then discusses the importance of people forgoing unnecessary purchases to 'buy more stuff', play golf, etc., and use the money to keep "Common Sense" going. He explains that the paper is going in debt; could be closed down and he (Freedman) no longer has the funds, having spent some $2,400,000 in his attempt to bring the information to the American public and elected officials. He then asks for questions from the audience.)

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{Question inaudible]

Freedman: All right, I'll comment on that. This is rather deep, but you all have a very high degree of intelligence, so I'm going to make an attempt. In the time of Bible history, there was a geographic area known as Judea. Judea was a province of the Roman Empire. Now, a person who lived in Judea was known as a Judean, and in Latin it was Judaeus; in Greek it was Judaius. Those are the two words, in Greek and Latin, for a Judean.

Now, in Latin and Greek there is no such letter as 'j', and the first syllable of Judaeus and Judaius starts 'ghu'. Now, when the Bible was written, it was first written in Greek, Latin, Panantic, Syriac, Aramaic... all those languages. Never Was the word Jew in any of them because the word didn't exist. Judea was the country, and the people were Judeans, and Jesus was referred to only as a Judean. I've seen those early... the earliest scripts available.

In 1345, a man by the name of Wycliffe in England thought that it was time to translate the Bible into English. There was no English edition of the Bible because who the Devil could read? It was only the educated church people who could read Latin and Greek, Syriac, Aramaic and the other languages. Anyhow, Wycliffe translated the Bible into English. But in it, he had to look around for some words for Judaeas and Judaius.

There was no English word because Judea had passed out of existence. There was no Judea. People had long ago forgotten that. So in the first translation he used the word, in referring to Jesus, as 'gyu', "jew". At the time, there was no printing press.

Then, between 1345 and the 17th century, when the press came into use, that word passed through so many changes... I have them all here. If you want I can read them to you. I will. That word 'gyu' which was in the Wycliffe Bible became. . . first it was ' gyu ', then ' giu ', then ' iu ' (because the ' i ' in Latin is pronounced like the ' j '. Julius Caesar is ' Iul ' because there is no 'j' in Latin) then ' iuw ', then ' ieuu ', then ' ieuy ', then ' iwe ', then ' iow ', then ' iewe ', all in Bibles as time went on. Then ' ieue ', then ' iue ', then ' ive ', and then ' ivw ', and finally in the 18th century... ' jew '. Jew.

All the corrupt and contracted forms for Judaius, and Judaeas in Latin. Now, there was no such thing as 'Jew', and any theologian -- I've lectured in maybe 20 of the most prominent theological seminaries in this country, and two in Europe -- there was no such word as Jew. There only was Judea, and Jesus was a Judean and the first English use of a word in an English bible to describe him was 'gyu' -- Jew. A contracted and shortened form of Judaeus, just the same as we call a laboratory a 'lab', and gasoline 'gas'... a tendency to short up.

So, in England there were no public schools; people didn't know how to read; it looked like a scrambled alphabet so they made a short word out of it. Now for a theologian to say that you can't harm the Jews, is just ridiculous. I'd like to know where in the scriptures it says that. I'd like to know the text.

Look at what happened to Germany for touching Jews. What would you, as a citizen of the United States, do to people who did to you what the so-called Jews -- the Pollacks and Litvaks and Litzianers -- they weren't Jews, as I just explained to you. They were Eastern Europeans who'd been converted to Talmudism. There was no such thing as Judaism. Judaism was a name given in recent years to this religion known in Bible history as Torah [inaudible]. No Jew or no educated person ever heard of Judaism. It didn't exist. They pulled it out of the air. . . a meaningless word.

Just like 'anti-Semitic'. The Arab is a Semite. And the Christians talk about people who don't like Jews as anti-Semites, and they call all the Arabs anti-Semites. The only Semites in the world are the Arabs. There isn't one Jew who's a Semite. They're all Turkothean Mongoloids. The Eastern european Jews. So, they brainwashed the public, and if you will invite me to meet this reverend who told you these things, I'll convince him and it'll be one step in the right direction. I'll go wherever I have to go to meet him.

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Yes, ma'am. Well... I can answer that. First of all, your first premise is wrong. Your first premise that all the Jews are loyal to each other is wrong. Because, the Eastern European Jews outnumber all the rest by so many that they create the impression that they are the Jewish 'race'; that they are the Jewish nation; that they are the Jewish people. . . and the Christians swallow it like a cream puff.

But in 1844 the German rabbis called a conference of rabbis from all over the world for the purpose of abolishing the Kol Nidre from the Day of Atonement religious ceremony. In Brunswick, Germany, where that conference was held in 1844, there was almost a terrific riot. A civil war.

The Eastern Europeans said, "What the hell. We should give up Kol Nidre? That gives us our grip on our people. We give them a franchise so they can tell the Christians, 'Go to hell. We'll make any deal you want', but they don't have to carry it out. That gives us our grip on our people". So, they're not so united, and if you knew the feeling that exists. . .

Now, I'll also show you from an official document by the man responsible for. . . uh, who baptized this race. Here is a paper that we obtained from the archives of the Zionist organization in New York City, and in it is the manuscript by Sir James A. Malcolm, who -- on behalf of the British Cabinet -- negotiated the deal with these Zionists.

And in here he says that all the jews in England were against it. The Jews who had been there for years, the [inaudible - probably Sephardim], those who had Portuguese and Spanish ad Dutch ancestry... who were monotheists and believed in that religious belief. That was while the Eastern European Jews were still running around in the heart of Asia and then came into Europe. But they had no more to do with them than. . . can we talk about a Christian 'race'? or a Christian religion?... or are the Christians united?

So the same disunity is among the Jews. And I'll show you in this same document that when they went to France to try and get the French government to back that Zionist venture, there was only one Jew in France who was for it. That was Rothschild, and they did it because they were interested in the oil and the Suez Canal

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[Question inaudible] Freedman: You know why? Because if they don't, they're decked up. They come around and they tell you how much you must give, and if you don't . . . oh, you're anti-Semitic. Then none of their friends will have anything to do with them, and they start a smear campaign. . . and you have got to give.

In New York city, in the garment center, there are twelve manufacturers in the building. And when the drive is on to sell Israel Bonds, the United Jewish Drive, they put a big scoreboard with the names of the firms and opposite them, as you make the amount they put you down for, they put a gold star after the name. Then, the buyers are told, "When you come into that building to call on someone and they haven't got a gold star, tell them that you won't buy from them until they have the gold star". BLACKMAIL. I don't know what else you can call it.

Then what do they do? They tell you it's for 'humanitarian purposes' and they send maybe $8 billion dollars to Israel, tax exempt, tax deductible. So if they hadn't sent that eight billion dollars to Israel, seven billion of it would have gone into the U.S. Treasury as income tax. So what happens? That seven billion dollars deficit -- that air pocket -- the gullible Christians have to make up.

They put a bigger tax on gas or bread or corporation tax. Somebody has to pay the housekeeping expenses for the government. So why do you let these people send their money over there to buy guns to drive people out of their ancient homeland? And you say, "Oh, well. The poor Jews. They have no place to go and they've been persecuted all their lives". They've never been persecuted for their religion. And I wish I had two rows of Rabbis here to challenge me. Never once, in all of history, have they been persecuted for their religion.

Do you know why the Jews were driven out of England? King Edward the First in 1285 drove them out, and they never came back until the Cromwell Revolution which was financed by the Rothschilds. For four-hundred years there wasn't a Jew. But do you know why they were driven out? Because in the Christian faith and the Moslem faith it's a sin to charge 'rent' for the use of money. In other words - what we call interest [usury] is a sin.

So the Jews had a monopoly in England and they charged so much interest, and when the Lords and Dukes couldn't pay, they [Jews] foreclosed. And they were creating so much trouble that the king of England finally made himself their partner, because when they they came to foreclose, some of these dukes bumped off the Jews. . . the money-lenders. So the king finally said -- and this is all in history, look up Tianson [Tennyson?] or Rourke, the History of the Jews in England; two books you can find in your library. When the king found out what the trouble was all about, and how much money they were making, he declared himself a fifty-percent partner of the money lenders. Edward the First. And for many years, one-third of the revenues of the British Treasury came from the fifty-percent interest in money-lending by the Jews.

But it got worse and worse. So much worse that when the Lords and Dukes kept killing the money-lenders, the King then said, "I declare myself the heir of all the money-lenders. If they're killed you have to pay me, because I'm his sole heir". That made so much trouble, because the King had to go out and collect the money with an army, so he told the Jews to get out. There were 15,000 of them, and they had to get out, and they went across to Ireland, and that's how Ireland got to be part of the United Kingdom.

When King Edward found out what they were doing, he decided to take Ireland for himself before someone else did. He sent Robert Southgard with a mercenary army and conquered Ireland. So, show me one time where a Jew was persecuted in any country because of his religion. It has never happened. It's always their impact on the political, social, or economic customs and traditions of the community in which they settle.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Question inaudible] Freedman: Yes, sir. Well, they say most of those things themselves. It was unnecessary for Benjamin Franklin to say it. Most of those things they say themselves. But Benjamin Franklin observed, and by hearsay understood, what was happening in Europe.

When Russia, in 920 was formed, and gradually surrounded the Khazar Kingdom, and absorbed them, most of the well-to-do Khazars fled to Western Europe and brought with them the very things to which you object and I object and a lot of other people object. The customs, the habits, the instincts with which they were endowed.

When Benjamin Franklin referred to them as Jews because that's the name that they went by, and when the Christians first heard that these people who were fleeing from Russia -- who they were -- that they had practiced this Talmudic faith -- the Christians in Western Europe said, "They must be the remnants of the lost ten tribes!"

And Mr. Grutz, the greatest historian amongst the Jews, said that -- and he's probably as good an authority on that subject as there is. So when Ben Franklin came to Europe in the 18th century, he already saw the results of what these people had done after they left their homeland. And every word of it is true... they say it themselves. I can give you half a dozen books they've written in which they say the same thing: When they have money they become tyrants. And when they become defeated, they become ruthless. They're only barbarians. They're the descendants of Asiatic Mongols and they will do anything to accomplish their purpose.

What right did they have to take over Russia the way they did? The Czar had abdicated nine or ten months before that. There was no need for them. . . they were going to have a constitutional monarchy. But they didn't want that. When the constitutional monarchy was to assemble in November, they mowed them all down and established the Soviet Union.

There was no need for that. But they thought, "Now is the time", and if you you will look in the Encyclopedia Britannica under the word 'Bolshevism', you'll find the five laws there that Lenin put down for a successful revolution. One of them is, "Wait for the right time, and then give them everything you've got". It would pay you to read that.

You'd also find that Mr. Harold Blacktree, who wrote the article for the Encyclopedia Britannica states that the Jews conceived and created and cultivated the Communist movement. And that their energy made them the spearhead of the movement. Harold Blacktree wrote it and no one knew more about Communism than he. And the Encyclopedia Britannica for 25 years has been printing it.

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[Question inaudible] Freedman: Well, I can't advocate that you do anything that's criminal, but I can tell you this. You can start what I call an endless chain. If you can get your friends to write, objectively, here is the statement: Mr. Kennedy's office gave me this himself. Mr. Smith, who succeeded Mr. Kennedy, took over his office -- was in his office -- and gave me this. He delivered this on the 25th, and it says here:

"For release to AM (that means morning papers), August 25th". "Israel is here to stay. It is a national commitment, special obligation of the Democratic Party. The White House must take the lead. American intervention. We will act promptly and decisively against any nation in the Middle East which attacks its neighbor. I propose that we make clear to both Israel and the Arab states our guarantee that we will act with whatever force and speed are necessary to halt any aggression by any nation".

Well, do you call the return of people to their homeland [the Arab Palestinians] aggression? Is Mr. Kennedy going to do that? Suppose three million Mexicans came into Texas and drove the six million Texans into the deserts of Arizona and New Mexico. Suppose these Mexicans were slipped in there armed -- the Texans were disarmed -- and one night they drove them all out of Texas and declared themselves the Republic of the Alamo. What would the United States say?

Would we say it's aggression for these Texans to try to get their homes back from the Mexican thieves? Suppose the Negroes in Alabama were secretly armed by the Soviets and overnight they rose up and drove all the whites into the swamps of Mississippi and Georgia and Florida. . . drove them out completely, and declared themselves the Republic of Ham, or the Republic of something-or-other. Would we call it aggression if these people, the whites of Alabama, tried to go back to their homes?

Would we. . . what would we think if the soviet Union said, "No, those Negroes now occupy them! Leave them there!", or "No, those Mexicans are in Texas. they declared themselves a sovereign state. Leave them there. You have plenty of room in Utah and Nevada. Settle somewhere else".

Would we call it aggression if the Alabama whites or the Texans wanted to go back to their homes? So now, you've go Thanks for posting. It's great to see others are aware of Benjamin Freedman. I wish every American could listen to what he had to say. Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

anarchyst , April 12, 2017 at 12:14 pm GMT \n
@NoseytheDuke Obviously a lot of people did perish in the camps as we've all seen footage countless times of piles of near-skeletal bodies being bulldozed into mass graves. It should be obvious to even a casual observer, if there could be such an individual, that these tragic deaths were clearly caused by starvation. This is seldom mentioned and all of these scenes took place towards the very end of the conflict after long range fuel tanks and the Norden bombsight had made possible accurate targeting of strategic supply lines causing massive starvation for everyone, but obviously much worse in the camps. Tragic every way one looks at it. You are correct. However, it was typhus–NOT "gas" there were no "gas chambers" in the camps the actual number of non-combatant deaths in the "European theater of operations" (camps included) was approximately 731,000 total NOT 6 million
Regards Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
L.K , April 12, 2017 at 5:52 pm GMT \n
200 Words @NoseytheDuke Obviously a lot of people did perish in the camps as we've all seen footage countless times of piles of near-skeletal bodies being bulldozed into mass graves. It should be obvious to even a casual observer, if there could be such an individual, that these tragic deaths were clearly caused by starvation. This is seldom mentioned and all of these scenes took place towards the very end of the conflict after long range fuel tanks and the Norden bombsight had made possible accurate targeting of strategic supply lines causing massive starvation for everyone, but obviously much worse in the camps. Tragic every way one looks at it. Hello Nosey,
You are correct in that Allied strategic bombing of Germany as well as Germany's overall collapse at the end of the war brought about a tremendous worsening of the camps conditions.
However I should add that the near-skeletal bodies were often the result of various diseases which caused the prisoners to quickly loose weight.
For example, 'B. M. McKelway inspected Buchenwald shortly after the U.S. takeover as one of a group of American newspaper editors and publishers. He reported that " many of the hundreds of inmates we saw appeared to be healthy while others suffering from dysentery, typhus, tuberculosis and other diseases were living skeletons ."'
At Belsen, the situation had become so bad, that even after the British takeover, and despite the brits having the necessary food/medicine supplies(which the Germans did not), prisoners continued to die like flies. Nearly 30.000 perished under British control.
For me, interestingly, it was footage from these camps, which no serious historian today claims were 'death camps'( those were all allegedly in the areas taken by the Soviets), which had such a deep impact on me as a child and made me a 'believer' for so long until I found out the truth. Read More
L.K , April 12, 2017 at 5:54 pm GMT \n
BTW, great piece by L.Dinh, and all the best to the brave Rudy Dent! Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
NoseytheDuke , April 13, 2017 at 12:08 am GMT \n
100 Words @L.K Hello Nosey,
You are correct in that Allied strategic bombing of Germany as well as Germany's overall collapse at the end of the war brought about a tremendous worsening of the camps conditions.
However I should add that the near-skeletal bodies were often the result of various diseases which caused the prisoners to quickly loose weight.
For example, 'B. M. McKelway inspected Buchenwald shortly after the U.S. takeover as one of a group of American newspaper editors and publishers. He reported that " many of the hundreds of inmates we saw appeared to be healthy while others suffering from dysentery, typhus, tuberculosis and other diseases were living skeletons ."'
At Belsen, the situation had become so bad, that even after the British takeover, and despite the brits having the necessary food/medicine supplies(which the Germans did not), prisoners continued to die like flies. Nearly 30.000 perished under British control.
For me, interestingly, it was footage from these camps, which no serious historian today claims were 'death camps'( those were all allegedly in the areas taken by the Soviets), which had such a deep impact on me as a child and made me a 'believer' for so long... until I found out the truth. I too accepted all of that which was shown to be true but it was the imprisonment of David Irving that made me question the accounts. I had never even read any of his books but to lock up a historian made no sense and I smelled a rodent(s).

There have always been both good and not so good historians but to criminalise a man for his views is an attack on free speech. Even now, to bring up the subject is to invite scorn and ridicule. Read More

Jonathan Revusky , Website April 13, 2017 at 6:14 pm GMT \n
300 Words @NoseytheDuke I too accepted all of that which was shown to be true but it was the imprisonment of David Irving that made me question the accounts. I had never even read any of his books but to lock up a historian made no sense and I smelled a rodent(s).

There have always been both good and not so good historians but to criminalise a man for his views is an attack on free speech. Even now, to bring up the subject is to invite scorn and ridicule.

it was the imprisonment of David Irving that made me question the accounts.

It's not just David Irving who was imprisoned for denying the gas chambers. Germar Rudolf and Ernst Zundel also. A French guy too, but his name escapes me. But also many people had their careers destroyed. (And in a couple of cases, the people groveled enough and were let off the hook, but then shut up about the topic.)

Amazon recently removed all the so-called Holocaust denial literature from their catalogue. http://www.veteranstoday.com/2017/03/11/amazon-holo/

What I find striking about all of this is that the Powers that Be are far more intent on persecuting so-called "Holocaust deniers" than 9/11 Truthers or JFK assassination researchers. They haven't banned any of those books. I'm pretty sure there are books claiming that the Clintons ordered various people assassinated and things like this that are still for sale on Amazon. You would think that all of these things would be much more sensitive topics than some discussion of what exactly happened in Auschwitz or Treblinka over 70 years ago. But no, it's the opposite! Taking things at face value, they really think that an intellectually honest discussion of WW2, particularly the Holocaust part, is a greater threat than something like 9/11 Truth!

Why is that?

I think this is a really key question to ponder and if you can begin to understand why this is so, then it breaks open one's a huge amount of the prior conditioning that exists in one's mental world. Read More Agree: L.K , Amanda

L.K , April 14, 2017 at 10:16 pm GMT \n
300 Words @Jonathan Revusky

it was the imprisonment of David Irving that made me question the accounts.
It's not just David Irving who was imprisoned for denying the gas chambers. Germar Rudolf and Ernst Zundel also. A French guy too, but his name escapes me. But also many people had their careers destroyed. (And in a couple of cases, the people groveled enough and were let off the hook, but then shut up about the topic.)

Amazon recently removed all the so-called Holocaust denial literature from their catalogue. http://www.veteranstoday.com/2017/03/11/amazon-holo/

What I find striking about all of this is that the Powers that Be are far more intent on persecuting so-called "Holocaust deniers" than 9/11 Truthers or JFK assassination researchers. They haven't banned any of those books. I'm pretty sure there are books claiming that the Clintons ordered various people assassinated and things like this that are still for sale on Amazon. You would think that all of these things would be much more sensitive topics than some discussion of what exactly happened in Auschwitz or Treblinka over 70 years ago. But no, it's the opposite! Taking things at face value, they really think that an intellectually honest discussion of WW2, particularly the Holocaust part, is a greater threat than something like 9/11 Truth!

Why is that?

I think this is a really key question to ponder and if you can begin to understand why this is so, then it breaks open one's a huge amount of the prior conditioning that exists in one's mental world. Hey Revusky,
Good to see you around!

"It's not just David Irving who was imprisoned for denying the gas chambers. Germar Rudolf and Ernst Zundel also. A French guy too"

In fact, there have been many others, besides the ones you mentioned! Heck, even grandmothers, as with Ursula Haverbeck. S.Alvarez wrote:

'Hamburg District Court, Nov. 11, 2015 - 87-year-old Ursula Haverbeck has been sentenced to imprisonment in Germany for doubting that people were "exterminated" by "gassing" in the Nazi concentration camp in Auschwitz.'

J.R: 'I think this is a really key question to ponder and if you can begin to understand why this is so, then it breaks open one's a huge amount of the prior conditioning that exists in one's mental world'

It did for me.

BtW, did you notice how the usual types started asking for Giraldi's pound of flesh for his asking the obvious question:

"In a number of European countries it is a crime to challenge the standard narrative on "the Holocaust." Why should that be? You can in much of Europe stand in a town square and say horrible things about your own country but if you criticize the factual basis of one particular "event" that took place in the 1940s you will go to jail."

Plus, Mr.Giraldi even had the temerity of placing quotation marks around the words "event" & "the Holocaust"! The usual hasbara types all demanded an 'explanation' from Giraldi
Take a look: http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/aipac-is-back-in-town/

Say, are you working on something new for us?
Regards Read More

Jonathan Revusky , Website April 16, 2017 at 7:40 pm GMT \n
300 Words @L.K Hey Revusky,
Good to see you around!

"It's not just David Irving who was imprisoned for denying the gas chambers. Germar Rudolf and Ernst Zundel also. A French guy too"

In fact, there have been many others, besides the ones you mentioned! Heck, even grandmothers, as with Ursula Haverbeck. S.Alvarez wrote:


'Hamburg District Court, Nov. 11, 2015 - 87-year-old Ursula Haverbeck has been sentenced to imprisonment in Germany for doubting that people were "exterminated" by "gassing" in the Nazi concentration camp in Auschwitz.'
J.R: 'I think this is a really key question to ponder and if you can begin to understand why this is so, then it breaks open one's a huge amount of the prior conditioning that exists in one's mental world'

It did for me.

BtW, did you notice how the usual types started asking for Giraldi's pound of flesh for his asking the obvious question:


"In a number of European countries it is a crime to challenge the standard narrative on "the Holocaust." Why should that be? You can in much of Europe stand in a town square and say horrible things about your own country but if you criticize the factual basis of one particular "event" that took place in the 1940s you will go to jail."
Plus, Mr.Giraldi even had the temerity of placing quotation marks around the words "event" & "the Holocaust"! The usual hasbara types all demanded an 'explanation' from Giraldi...
Take a look: http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/aipac-is-back-in-town/

Say, are you working on something new for us?
Regards

Heck, even grandmothers, as with Ursula Haverbeck.

Actually, I don't think they put Ursula in prison. I was curious about that and tried to find out, but I'm not 100% sure either. But she's like 87 years old, so it was problematic to actually send her to a penitentiary, I suppose. But they did sentence her to prison, that much is clearly true, but I think it's some form of suspended sentence in her case.

Actually, I remembered the name of the French guy I was referring to. That's Vincent Reynouard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Reynouard He's in his forties and served 9 months in prison for real apparently but the wiki page says he is living in England and can't go back to France where there is another 2 year sentence pending.

I don't know which is more amazing really:

(a) You can go to prison in much of Europe for simply expressing a view about an historical event, i.e. thought-crime.
(b) There is close to ZERO protest about it.

In a way, (b) is a more amazing, isn't it? Or another reformulation of it is: which is more amazing?

(a) the Judaeo-Zionist power structure is persecuting Holocaust revisionists and trying to imprison them and so on
(b) all the brainfucked goyim who collaborate with (a)

Again, I think (b) is more amazing than (a). And, even those who aren't actively collaborating, like judges and so forth sentencing people to prison for the thought-crimes, it's because all the rest of the goyim put up with this shit. I mean, if the German judge who sentenced Ursula Haverbeck to a prison sentence or the French judge who sentenced Vincent Reynouard were to become a social pariahs in Germany and respectively, then that would at least be a disincentive for that kind of Shabbas Goy to the bidding of the Zionists, right?

But somehow, it is only the Judaeics who can use excommunication and whatnot as a weapon of social pressure see what I mean? I'm just thinking out loud here it's a fascinating topic, no? Read More Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

Jonathan Revusky , Website April 16, 2017 at 10:00 pm GMT \n
400 Words @L.K Hey Revusky,
Good to see you around!

"It's not just David Irving who was imprisoned for denying the gas chambers. Germar Rudolf and Ernst Zundel also. A French guy too"

In fact, there have been many others, besides the ones you mentioned! Heck, even grandmothers, as with Ursula Haverbeck. S.Alvarez wrote:


'Hamburg District Court, Nov. 11, 2015 - 87-year-old Ursula Haverbeck has been sentenced to imprisonment in Germany for doubting that people were "exterminated" by "gassing" in the Nazi concentration camp in Auschwitz.'
J.R: 'I think this is a really key question to ponder and if you can begin to understand why this is so, then it breaks open one's a huge amount of the prior conditioning that exists in one's mental world'

It did for me.

BtW, did you notice how the usual types started asking for Giraldi's pound of flesh for his asking the obvious question:


"In a number of European countries it is a crime to challenge the standard narrative on "the Holocaust." Why should that be? You can in much of Europe stand in a town square and say horrible things about your own country but if you criticize the factual basis of one particular "event" that took place in the 1940s you will go to jail."
Plus, Mr.Giraldi even had the temerity of placing quotation marks around the words "event" & "the Holocaust"! The usual hasbara types all demanded an 'explanation' from Giraldi...
Take a look: http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/aipac-is-back-in-town/

Say, are you working on something new for us?
Regards

Plus, Mr.Giraldi even had the temerity of placing quotation marks around the words "event" & "the Holocaust"! The usual hasbara types all demanded an 'explanation'

I noticed that Uncle Talha was in there too, absolutely intent on not saying anything controversial about the Big H topic. Like 9/11, he manages somehow to not really know anything about it. I assume that would always turn out to be the case for any sensitive topic - I mean sensitive for his Zionists masters. He would always tiptoe around it.

He really is like some Muslim (and I now think he really is a Muslim BTW) who has completely internalized the various Zionist-imposed limits of discourse. The whole Uncle Talha discourse is to accept every Zionist synthetic narrative and then say: "But I'm a sweet, good Muzzie, not the kind who flies planes into buildings and beheads people. Those are the bad, bad Muzzies ."

In some weird way, he might be sincere, in the sense that he really does believe that it is so terrible to be a "conspiracy theorist" and even worse to be a "Holocaust denier" and, in general, it is of maximal importance not to cross any of the lines in the sand that the Zionists have drawn. But it is really sort of disgusting to observe the way he is so psychologically dominated by these people. I earlier called him their "Pakistani poodle" and their "Muzzie mascot" and even the "Uncle Talha" label is nasty in itself, but I can't really take any of it back or anything. I think it's all accurate.

He goes along with every constructed blood-libel against Muslims, like 9/11 and all the rest, but then says he's a defender of Islam because he gets into arguments about stuff that was happening in the Middle Ages! That is such pure idiocy! He's like a guy who thinks he's a great poker player because everybody loves playing poker with him. "I must be a great Muslim because these Zionist shills all say so!" Like that poker player, it does not occur to him that if these people like you, you're probably doing something wrong!

All that said, it can be somewhat offputting to deal with their seething hostility. I mean, those guys like Shama and the rest really hate my guts. I can feel it. But I do then remind myself that that is a key sign that I must be doing something right!

Say, are you working on something new for us?

I'm trying to write a couple of different articles, but it does not come easy to me.

[Apr 22, 2017] Obscured American Rudy Dent a 9-11 First Responder - The Unz Review

Notable quotes:
"... I saw the contradiction in real time, absolutely. You know, I was there in 1993. I was inside the building with the FBI. I saw the immensity of that explosion. It was surreal. I mean, it was fully intended to bring down, to topple the building. It blew a hole in the ground, through the concrete, about three stories down. ..."
"... You know, they waited, then they did it again. In 2001, I was there to see the third building come down, and what caught my attention were not the explosions, because I'm used to explosions. I spent two and a half years in Vietnam, so I'm used to explosions, but when I saw my fellow firefighters jump in a panic reaction to the loud noise of an explosion, which they're not used to, and they're not trained for, that's what shocked me. My fellow firefighters, they're professional guys, but for the most part, they're not combat veterans, right? ..."
"... I looked at the building where the explosions came from, and that's when I saw building 7 come down. ..."
"... You know, the real simple thing anybody can see, from the start, is that if they look at Tower 1 or 2, it's disintegrating from the top down. It's being demolished, pulverized and blown up, from the top down, while the base remains solid. The difference with Building 7 is they blow it up from the bottom, and you see the whole building come down intact. That's something any layman can look at and say, "Wait a minute! Something's wrong here. Something is very, very wrong here." ..."
"... I spoke out right away, on FaceBook, then I met Richard Gage. That's when I started to speak out on behalf of Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth. ..."
"... Richard brought it to the public's attention. He broke into the mainstream and had them begrudgingly acknowledge that there was a Building 7. Otherwise, we would still not even know that Building 7 went down, so he was a key player. Given the legitimacy of Architects and Engineers, specifically focusing on their area of expertise, they could not be marginalized and dismissed. ..."
"... The mainstream media interviewed Richard only with the intent of luring him into a trap. That is, of having him make a comment such as, "Well, it's a conspiracy theory, you know," but he avoided every trick and trap they tried to lure him into, and he responded by saying, "That's a political assumption. We're not political. We are specialists in our area of expertise, and we're questioning the 9/11 Commission's findings." ..."
"... I don't know if you know this story, but Richard bought pizza for all of his associate architects, just to get them to come in and listen to him. Otherwise, nobody wanted to hear anything about "conspiracy theories," and against the government, no less. That's a big stretch and, you know, almost un-American. ..."
"... Being involved with this has cost me friends, family, health. You spend long hours researching it, and that's time you're not doing what you'd normally be doing. I used to be very physical. I used to like to do a lot of landscaping. Spending long hours sitting down, researching stuff, takes a toll on your eyes, and it's not good for your health. ..."
"... Friends, you know, who are still stuck in cognitive dissonance, you're at odds with them, and family. Just because they're family doesn't mean they'll go along with you. They're stuck where they are. ..."
"... It's a painful trip for everybody. People who've really gotten into researching 9/11, something didn't sit right with them, so somewhere along the line, they had a kind of trauma, you know, a trigger that got them into actually looking into it a bit further, and thinking for themselves. ..."
"... I conveyed my disbelief on the web, on FaceBook, but I knew what I was dealing with. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing. I took my time and let my FaceBook friends get to know me. I would address it a little bit at a time, with a little bit of evidence. I'd impartially ask questions. If I went too far, I'd get a deafening silence, because nobody wanted to stick their neck out. It was like saying, "Yeah, I believe in flying saucers." It's a touchy subject that affects your credibility. ..."
"... I simply took it real slow. People got to know me then, finally, instead of a deafening silence, people started responding, adding more information, based on their own research. ..."
"... All these videos that were coming out, I'd share them. Now, if you go on the web, the information you're getting is phenomenal, so it's not even you sharing what you know, but you benefiting from other people sharing what they know. ..."
"... In the beginning, there were firefighters who were there telling what they saw, as survivors, but a lot of them went out with injuries, with lung problems. I had lung problems myself. We lost a lot of experienced firefighters from that day, and directly afterwards. There were guys who came down really sick. For about two or three months, I had all kinds of gray, black phlegm coming out of my lungs. ..."
"... We've got a new batch of firefighters who are trained and disciplined to follow orders and not question, so they follow the official line that's handed down the chain of command. This is what happened, this is what the 9/11 Commission said. That's it. They left it at that. ..."
"... As for the older guys, most of them are gone. They were forced to retire with lung problems and things like that. For the most part, 9/11 is not discussed in the firehouse. ..."
"... I sense, from talking to the guys, right there in the firehouse, that there's a morale problem. They're starting to understand that they have no protection from this new kind of, ah, sudden collapse syndrome. If it were to occur again, they would be expected to just charge into a building, as they did before, and put their lives on the line. ..."
"... The training in the New York City Fire Department is absolutely top notch. The people in the research of standard operational procedures are really the best you can get. They don't want any man to come back and haunt them for a lack of training, but here, you have a situation where there's no corrective measure to prevent a repeat of what happened. ..."
"... As with soldiers, there is no respect for firemen at all. You know Henry Kissinger. Did you see his famous quote? He said, "Soldiers are dumb, stupid animals to be used." ..."
"... As a result of that false flag operation, we lost more people on that day than we did at Pearl Harbor. Now, Pearl Harbor was also a false flag. We have broken the Japanese code, and we knew an attack was imminent. ..."
"... FDR had to comply with the wishes of the Zionists, you know, the Globalists' intent to start World War II. They needed a false flag, so Pearl Harbor was that false flag. From there, they got their World War II, and their myth of a six-million Holocaust. I researched that, and that's a complete lie. ..."
"... All you have to do is go to the International Red Cross and look at their detailed findings, because they had access to the so-called concentration camps, which were in fact work camps. Auschwitz itself, I've posted on that. There's a very good video called, "One Third of the Holocaust," and it explains all that. ..."
"... There's a lot going on. Right now, as a result of 9/11, we're sending off our sons and daughters to invade sovereign nations, based on preemptive strikes and false flags, to kill people we have more in common with than the people who are sending us. ..."
"... And they come back in boxes, they come back missing limbs, they come back with traumatic brain injury, post traumatic stress disorder, and currently committing suicide at the rate of 22 per day. You don't see that on the front page, where it should be, every day. So, that's another proof that the mainstream media is in the hands of the enemy, and it's not doing its job. ..."
"... It's all connected. It's all part of the big picture. I was arguing with an academic who was doing a detailed research on Hitler and how the Zionists funded his early beginning. OK, fine, that's all good and well, but if you're going to look at something, look at every relevant dimension of it. ..."
"... So anyway, I tried to explain that to him, and he said, "Well, what does my research have to do with America?" ..."
"... I said, "Really? Did you really ask me that?! And you're supposed to be intelligent?" ..."
"... In the time of the Renaissance, there were big, strong warriors who wore heavy armor and were hoisted by a pulley system onto the saddle of their Clydesdale, right? With their lance, very powerful, they were the tanks of their day. ..."
"... When they got injured, the procedure was to take a sword and put it in the fire until it got orange, then they laid it in the wound to cauterize it. There was no stitching or anything like that. It used to take ten men to try to hold that warrior down, until they discovered that all it took was a young, pretty maiden, you know. All she had to do was put her hand on the back of the warrior's wrist, and he wouldn't scream out, he wouldn't fight back, he would take it, right? ..."
"... Now, that's a good example of how we have been chained, and given a taboo in our brain against even daring to question the so-called Holocaust, their big cash cow. I'm here to tell you it is an outright, utter lie. ..."
"... In my town, I have a lot of good friends that are Jewish, and there are a lot of decent, good Jewish people who are no different than any of us. They work, they even go to war, pay their taxes, they're no different than us. They may not even be religious, they're secular, right? They just happen to be Jewish, but those same people are being used. ..."
"... In America, the population of Jewish people is 2%. Within that 2%, there are 4% who are the hardcore, extremist elements who are the policy makers, who run and control America. ..."
"... We have a sadly predictable, knee jerk reaction that's instilled in us, so that we feel compassion for the poor Jews who were actually burnt alive in an oven, and all the stories they put out, you know, when in fact, it was nothing but a cover story to cover the real atrocity that they committed, and the millions of people that they exterminated, and the fact that they were behind, that the Rothschild bankers were instigating, orchestrating and profiting from World War II. ..."
"... So it's all connected, and our minds have been polluted with over 70 years of indoctrination to actually believe this stuff, and see the world through our enemy's eyes, being incapable of seeing their lies. ..."
"... When we dare to venture into looking into that, we risk alienating a lot of friends. ..."
"... Living in my town, I saw what was being done by the Ultra Orthodox and Orthodox, the way they took over the town. As a police officer, I believed I could handle myself because I knew the laws, then I found out the laws were being circumvented by politicians who were bought and paid for by the bloc vote, the Ultra Orthodox Jews, a religious hate cult. ..."
"... A really good perspective is Henry Ford's book, and they bought it all up and destroyed as many as they could. Ford sponsored scholars to go around the world and study the Jewish issue, and they wrote a book called The International Jew, and that's what the problem is. ..."
"... This Zionist political movement is a globalist movement. They may be born in a country, grew up in it and even be successful in that country, as German Jews were, you know, but they have no loyalty to their hosts. ..."
"... After four years, I was happy to get out of the police department because I could see that the prison industrial complex was a profitable business, by design, just like the Holocaust industrial complex. ..."
"... It's a vicious, repetitious cycle where you have victims victimizing, and as long as you have an influx of perpetrators to use as slave labor, stamping out license plates, making lights and stuff like that, it's a profitable business. ..."
"... Why do you think all these entrepreneurs want to get private prisons and build them? One of them sued the state because they didn't provide him with enough prisoners. We don't care if they're innocent, go out and arrest them! ..."
"... Linh Dinh 's Postcards from the End of America has just been released by Seven Stories Press. He maintains an active photo blog . ..."
Apr 22, 2017 | www.unz.com
Obscured American: Rudy Dent a 9-11 First Responder Linh Dinh April 9, 2017 2,900 Words 121 Comments Reply Rudy Dent in Detroit, 2017 Jump To... Content Top Bottom Section Prev Current Next Bookmark Toggle All ToC Remove from Library Add to Library Bookmarks
On February 18th, I was in Detroit to attend a presentation , "The War on Islam: 9/11 Revisited, Uncovered & Exposed." Sponsored by the Nation of Islam , it featured Kevin Barrett, Richard Gage and Christopher Bollyn.

Prefacing, Ilia Rashad Muhammad remarked that 9/11 is more relevant than ever, since it has been used to curb the freedoms of all Americans, especially Muslims. Moreover, it has "literally impacted America, and the world, like never before." As a pretext for endless war, 9/11 hasn't just deformed this whole earth, it threatens to destroy it.

Reminding us that false flags are far from unusual, Kevin Barrett cited 10 famous examples from history: Nero allegedly burning Rome; Gunpowder Plot; sinking of the USS Maine; sending of the Lusitania, a passenger ship loaded with explosives, into a war zone; Pearl Harbor; Gulf of Tonkin Incident; Israel's attack on the USS Liberty; bombing of the USS Cole; 1993 World Trade Center bombing; all the post 9-11 false flags, including Orlando, Charlie Hebdo and the ones in Paris in November of 2015, etc.; 9/11.

Richard Gage patiently proved that the collapse of all three WTC buildings couldn't have been caused by fire. He paid particular attention to Building 7, which was hit by no plane and suffered almost no damage before it collapsed, at free fall speed, into its own footprint. Gage stated that nano-thermite was found in WTC dust samples, and asked why 163,000 tons of concrete pulverized in mid-air? His organization, the 2,500-strong Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, simply wants a proper investigation into what happened.

Christopher Bollyn began by thanking Louis Farrakhan as "the only religious leader in our nation who has addressed the gigantic, horrendous fraud of 9/11." Then:

9/11 was carried out to kick start the War on Terror, a Zionist war agenda of aggression, terrorism and conquest which continues to this day [...] We will not have peace as a nation, or a world, if we continue to accept the deception of 9/11 [...] If the government and media are lying to us about 9/11, it means that they are controlled by the very same people who carried out 9/11 [...] Both 9/11 and the War on Terror were conceived and planned in Israel in the 1970's by Israeli military intelligence [...] The War on Terror is an Israeli stratagem, a ploy pushed by Netanyahu-since 1979-to trick the United States into waging war against Israel's enemies.

With the 1979 Jerusalem Conference on International Terrorism, the book Terrorism: How the West Can Win and speech after speech, Netanyahu's central project is the War on Terror. Bollyn pointed out the absurdity of Bibi's stance considering that Israel was founded on terror, is maintained by terror, and had a master terrorist, Menachim Begin, as one of its prime ministers.

All three speakers were raptly received by an audience of about two thousand, all but a dozen of them Black Muslims. Mingling afterwards, I met Rudy Dent , a retired fireman, ex cop and Vietnam vet. Flying from NYC, Dent was only in Detroit for a few hours.

This mild, affable man is known for an InfoWars interview , conducted in Times Square on September 11th, 2014. It already has 2.4 million views. Dent spoke of firemen being in Building 7 "calling for additional hand lines to mop up the isolated pockets of fire." Because no skyscrapers had ever collapse due to fire, they never suspected this 52-story building would suddenly become their tomb.

Explaining that fire cannot, by itself, burn hot enough to melt steel, Dent related:

What we had in the WorldTradeCenter, and I saw myself, was molten, lava-like pockets of molten steel, all right? I spent the night on the pile searching for bodies, and I saw that with my own eyes. So who are you going to believe? Are you going to believe a bunch of government bureaucrats, or my fellow brothers, which I lost 343 guys that day? And I lost Tommy O'Hagan, Bruce van Hines and Kenny Cumple, and I can never forget that. I think of that before I go to bed. I think about it first thing in the morning when I wake up, and it's in honor of them and their family that I will continue to do everything I can to make the rest of the world wake up to the fact that this was a false flag operation.

In Detroit, I tagged along as Dent was driven to the airport. We talked about his life, world view and, of course, experience of 9/11.

I saw the contradiction in real time, absolutely. You know, I was there in 1993. I was inside the building with the FBI. I saw the immensity of that explosion. It was surreal. I mean, it was fully intended to bring down, to topple the building. It blew a hole in the ground, through the concrete, about three stories down.

You know, they waited, then they did it again. In 2001, I was there to see the third building come down, and what caught my attention were not the explosions, because I'm used to explosions. I spent two and a half years in Vietnam, so I'm used to explosions, but when I saw my fellow firefighters jump in a panic reaction to the loud noise of an explosion, which they're not used to, and they're not trained for, that's what shocked me. My fellow firefighters, they're professional guys, but for the most part, they're not combat veterans, right?

I looked at the building where the explosions came from, and that's when I saw building 7 come down.

ORDER IT NOW

You know, the real simple thing anybody can see, from the start, is that if they look at Tower 1 or 2, it's disintegrating from the top down. It's being demolished, pulverized and blown up, from the top down, while the base remains solid. The difference with Building 7 is they blow it up from the bottom, and you see the whole building come down intact. That's something any layman can look at and say, "Wait a minute! Something's wrong here. Something is very, very wrong here."

I spoke out right away, on FaceBook, then I met Richard Gage. That's when I started to speak out on behalf of Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth.

Richard brought it to the public's attention. He broke into the mainstream and had them begrudgingly acknowledge that there was a Building 7. Otherwise, we would still not even know that Building 7 went down, so he was a key player. Given the legitimacy of Architects and Engineers, specifically focusing on their area of expertise, they could not be marginalized and dismissed.

The mainstream media interviewed Richard only with the intent of luring him into a trap. That is, of having him make a comment such as, "Well, it's a conspiracy theory, you know," but he avoided every trick and trap they tried to lure him into, and he responded by saying, "That's a political assumption. We're not political. We are specialists in our area of expertise, and we're questioning the 9/11 Commission's findings."

I don't know if you know this story, but Richard bought pizza for all of his associate architects, just to get them to come in and listen to him. Otherwise, nobody wanted to hear anything about "conspiracy theories," and against the government, no less. That's a big stretch and, you know, almost un-American.

Being involved with this has cost me friends, family, health. You spend long hours researching it, and that's time you're not doing what you'd normally be doing. I used to be very physical. I used to like to do a lot of landscaping. Spending long hours sitting down, researching stuff, takes a toll on your eyes, and it's not good for your health.

Friends, you know, who are still stuck in cognitive dissonance, you're at odds with them, and family. Just because they're family doesn't mean they'll go along with you. They're stuck where they are.

It's a painful trip for everybody. People who've really gotten into researching 9/11, something didn't sit right with them, so somewhere along the line, they had a kind of trauma, you know, a trigger that got them into actually looking into it a bit further, and thinking for themselves.

I conveyed my disbelief on the web, on FaceBook, but I knew what I was dealing with. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing. I took my time and let my FaceBook friends get to know me. I would address it a little bit at a time, with a little bit of evidence. I'd impartially ask questions. If I went too far, I'd get a deafening silence, because nobody wanted to stick their neck out. It was like saying, "Yeah, I believe in flying saucers." It's a touchy subject that affects your credibility.

I simply took it real slow. People got to know me then, finally, instead of a deafening silence, people started responding, adding more information, based on their own research.

All these videos that were coming out, I'd share them. Now, if you go on the web, the information you're getting is phenomenal, so it's not even you sharing what you know, but you benefiting from other people sharing what they know.

In the beginning, there were firefighters who were there telling what they saw, as survivors, but a lot of them went out with injuries, with lung problems. I had lung problems myself. We lost a lot of experienced firefighters from that day, and directly afterwards. There were guys who came down really sick. For about two or three months, I had all kinds of gray, black phlegm coming out of my lungs.

We've got a new batch of firefighters who are trained and disciplined to follow orders and not question, so they follow the official line that's handed down the chain of command. This is what happened, this is what the 9/11 Commission said. That's it. They left it at that.

As for the older guys, most of them are gone. They were forced to retire with lung problems and things like that. For the most part, 9/11 is not discussed in the firehouse.

I sense, from talking to the guys, right there in the firehouse, that there's a morale problem. They're starting to understand that they have no protection from this new kind of, ah, sudden collapse syndrome. If it were to occur again, they would be expected to just charge into a building, as they did before, and put their lives on the line.

The training in the New York City Fire Department is absolutely top notch. The people in the research of standard operational procedures are really the best you can get. They don't want any man to come back and haunt them for a lack of training, but here, you have a situation where there's no corrective measure to prevent a repeat of what happened.

As with soldiers, there is no respect for firemen at all. You know Henry Kissinger. Did you see his famous quote? He said, "Soldiers are dumb, stupid animals to be used."

As a result of that false flag operation, we lost more people on that day than we did at Pearl Harbor. Now, Pearl Harbor was also a false flag. We have broken the Japanese code, and we knew an attack was imminent.

FDR had to comply with the wishes of the Zionists, you know, the Globalists' intent to start World War II. They needed a false flag, so Pearl Harbor was that false flag. From there, they got their World War II, and their myth of a six-million Holocaust. I researched that, and that's a complete lie.

All you have to do is go to the International Red Cross and look at their detailed findings, because they had access to the so-called concentration camps, which were in fact work camps. Auschwitz itself, I've posted on that. There's a very good video called, "One Third of the Holocaust," and it explains all that.

ORDER IT NOW

There's a lot going on. Right now, as a result of 9/11, we're sending off our sons and daughters to invade sovereign nations, based on preemptive strikes and false flags, to kill people we have more in common with than the people who are sending us.

And they come back in boxes, they come back missing limbs, they come back with traumatic brain injury, post traumatic stress disorder, and currently committing suicide at the rate of 22 per day. You don't see that on the front page, where it should be, every day. So, that's another proof that the mainstream media is in the hands of the enemy, and it's not doing its job.

It's all connected. It's all part of the big picture. I was arguing with an academic who was doing a detailed research on Hitler and how the Zionists funded his early beginning. OK, fine, that's all good and well, but if you're going to look at something, look at every relevant dimension of it.

So anyway, I tried to explain that to him, and he said, "Well, what does my research have to do with America?"

I said, "Really? Did you really ask me that?! And you're supposed to be intelligent?"

In the time of the Renaissance, there were big, strong warriors who wore heavy armor and were hoisted by a pulley system onto the saddle of their Clydesdale, right? With their lance, very powerful, they were the tanks of their day.

When they got injured, the procedure was to take a sword and put it in the fire until it got orange, then they laid it in the wound to cauterize it. There was no stitching or anything like that. It used to take ten men to try to hold that warrior down, until they discovered that all it took was a young, pretty maiden, you know. All she had to do was put her hand on the back of the warrior's wrist, and he wouldn't scream out, he wouldn't fight back, he would take it, right?

Now, that's a good example of how we have been chained, and given a taboo in our brain against even daring to question the so-called Holocaust, their big cash cow. I'm here to tell you it is an outright, utter lie.

In my town, I have a lot of good friends that are Jewish, and there are a lot of decent, good Jewish people who are no different than any of us. They work, they even go to war, pay their taxes, they're no different than us. They may not even be religious, they're secular, right? They just happen to be Jewish, but those same people are being used.

In America, the population of Jewish people is 2%. Within that 2%, there are 4% who are the hardcore, extremist elements who are the policy makers, who run and control America.

We have a sadly predictable, knee jerk reaction that's instilled in us, so that we feel compassion for the poor Jews who were actually burnt alive in an oven, and all the stories they put out, you know, when in fact, it was nothing but a cover story to cover the real atrocity that they committed, and the millions of people that they exterminated, and the fact that they were behind, that the Rothschild bankers were instigating, orchestrating and profiting from World War II.

So it's all connected, and our minds have been polluted with over 70 years of indoctrination to actually believe this stuff, and see the world through our enemy's eyes, being incapable of seeing their lies.

When we dare to venture into looking into that, we risk alienating a lot of friends.

Living in my town, I saw what was being done by the Ultra Orthodox and Orthodox, the way they took over the town. As a police officer, I believed I could handle myself because I knew the laws, then I found out the laws were being circumvented by politicians who were bought and paid for by the bloc vote, the Ultra Orthodox Jews, a religious hate cult.

A really good perspective is Henry Ford's book, and they bought it all up and destroyed as many as they could. Ford sponsored scholars to go around the world and study the Jewish issue, and they wrote a book called The International Jew, and that's what the problem is.

This Zionist political movement is a globalist movement. They may be born in a country, grew up in it and even be successful in that country, as German Jews were, you know, but they have no loyalty to their hosts.

After four years, I was happy to get out of the police department because I could see that the prison industrial complex was a profitable business, by design, just like the Holocaust industrial complex.

It's a vicious, repetitious cycle where you have victims victimizing, and as long as you have an influx of perpetrators to use as slave labor, stamping out license plates, making lights and stuff like that, it's a profitable business.

Why do you think all these entrepreneurs want to get private prisons and build them? One of them sued the state because they didn't provide him with enough prisoners. We don't care if they're innocent, go out and arrest them!

Linh Dinh 's Postcards from the End of America has just been released by Seven Stories Press. He maintains an active photo blog .

[Apr 18, 2017] Dear Washington the era of the false flag attack is now over

Notable quotes:
"... None other than Russian President Vladimir Putin then spoke out, saying that Russia believed similar "provocations" were being planned ..."
Apr 18, 2017 | theduran.com
Not so long ago, using the term "false flag" immediately marked you as a "conspiracy theorist," – basically a nutcase not in touch with reality. Supposedly.

In case anybody still doesn't know, a "false flag [attack/event]" is an incident perpetrated by one party (usually a state) either against itself or someone else, while making it appear that a third party is to blame.

False flag events are far from a new idea. King Gustav III of Sweden staged an attack on one of his own outposts using soldiers in fake Russian uniforms, to provide a pretext for initiating war against Russia in 1788.

In the Gleiwitz Incident , Nazi Germany apparently staged an attack on a German radio station, in order to blame Poland and provide propaganda supporting the decision to go to war.

However, it is the United States which, in the 20th and 21st centuries, has been most frequently accused of perpetrating false flag events.

The 1898 Spanish-American war started after a US battleship, the Maine, mysteriously blew up in Havana harbor . The cause was never conclusively proven, but Spain was immediately blamed, and Congress declared war. (Nobody apparently asked what a US battleship was doing parked in another country's harbor in the first place.)

Operation Northwoods was a plan developed by the Joint Chiefs of Staff and submitted to President John F. Kennedy in 1962, proposing various scenarios for faking terrorist attacks on the US and blaming them on Cuba. Kennedy rejected the plan.

Many consider the Gulf of Tonkin incident of 1964, which was used to introduce US ground troops into Vietnam, to have been a false flag. And millions of people world wide do not believe the official narrative of what occurred during the 9-11 attacks.

When the United States accused the Syrian government, led by President Bashar al-Assad, of unleashing a sarin gas attack on civilians in the town of Khan Shaykhun in the Idlib province of Syria on April 4th – an incident which brought him no advantage, but played directly to the advantage of his enemies – the alternative media sphere immediately began crying foul.

Twitter exploded with indications that the event was staged, with so-called "white helmets" humanitarian workers caught in multiple compromising positions:

However, the proof in social media was only the first blow. None other than Russian President Vladimir Putin then spoke out, saying that Russia believed similar "provocations" were being planned:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/bACg_VPECmk

His statement was followed by an extended interview given by Syrian President Assad, whose reasoned responses ripped to sheds the accusations of his accusers:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/Syyq7zbTuTA

These public statements by two leading world statesmen immediately added impetus to the claims in alternative media that a false flag attack had indeed occurred.

Then, in a clear message to the United States, Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov followed up his April 12th meeting with Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, by meeting with the foreign ministers of Iran and Syria in Moscow only two days later, April 14th – a clear show of solidarity.

This followed Tillerson's demand at the G7 in Lucca that Russia should "reconsider" its alliance with Iran and Syria.

At the press conference afterward, Lavrov stated about the alleged chemical attack:

There is growing evidence that this was staged – meaning the incident with the use of chemical weapons in Idlib province.

What makes the false flag at Khan Shaykhun unlike previous false flags is the speed with which it was exposed – both on the internet using the alleged footage itself, and possibly for the first time, by other state parties (Russia and Syria) opposed to the agenda the perpetrators seek to advance.

Now "false flag" has essentially entered the normal political lexicon.

And normalizing awareness of what a false flag is, along with decreasing acceptance of it as a state tactic, essentially means it will be increasingly difficult to succeed with one in the future.

Thus, it can be said that the era in which government orchestrated false flags can be carried out with a high chance of success is effectively over. Both modern communication media (i.e. the internet and smart phones) and risk of exposure by opposing governments will make it high-risk, low reward-undertaking.

That is not to say false flags will not continue to happen. They will. After all, the deep state apparatus appears both highly resistant to change, and severely lacking in originality. But such events will be increasingly less likely to be successful in convincing observers that the party they intend to implicate is the one to blame.

[Apr 18, 2017] Blame Putin! scheme is much older then recent Presidential elections

Notable quotes:
"... Most of the information about the specific instance of the CIA torturing an individual in Lebanon came from a biography on Bob Ames titled The Good Spy (2014) by Kai Bird. Which was a pretty good book. Ames has an interesting history. He forged a relationship which the author characterized as a friendship with high ranking individuals in the Palestinian Liberation Organization at a time when the PLO was labeled as a terrorist organization. It was this back channel connection that formed the basis of American diplomacy for peace negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinians. He died in the 1983 embassy bombing. ..."
"... Similar methods that resulted in the death of prisoners during CIA's systemic torture program during the Bush Administration were used. They'd dump cold water on'em and leave them in a cold cell. Nimr was left in a cell with a fan blowing cold air on them. Hall wasn't present at the time Nimr died. ..."
"... Besides the embassy bombing Mughniyeh was blamed for a lot of other terrorist acts that I think are based on nothing more than circumstantial evidence. Contemporary analysis suggests it's basically the "Blame Putin!" trope in action. ..."
Jan 01, 2017 | www.nakedcapitalism.com
Andrew Watts , December 31, 2016 at 3:03 pm

*I was in a rush yesterday so this is a follow-up to yesterday's hastily written comment on the torture report. Any fault or errors in that comment can be attributed to my gullibility.

Most of the information about the specific instance of the CIA torturing an individual in Lebanon came from a biography on Bob Ames titled The Good Spy (2014) by Kai Bird. Which was a pretty good book. Ames has an interesting history. He forged a relationship which the author characterized as a friendship with high ranking individuals in the Palestinian Liberation Organization at a time when the PLO was labeled as a terrorist organization. It was this back channel connection that formed the basis of American diplomacy for peace negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinians. He died in the 1983 embassy bombing.

-The individual who was tortured and died soon afterward was Elias Nimr . A Christian intelligence chieftain who appears to have played every side and angle he could during the Lebanon Civil War.

-The name of the CIA contractor who tortured Nimr was identified as Keith "Captain Crunch" Hall . He was originally identified by Mark Bowden in his book Road Work: Among Tyrants, Heroes, Rogues, and Beasts. (2007) A former Marine before he joined the CIA and was later a cop in California.

Similar methods that resulted in the death of prisoners during CIA's systemic torture program during the Bush Administration were used. They'd dump cold water on'em and leave them in a cold cell. Nimr was left in a cell with a fan blowing cold air on them. Hall wasn't present at the time Nimr died.

-Bob Baer neglects to mention this specific incident of torture in See No Evil but doesn't blame Nimr for the bombing of the embassy. *cough* Appropriately titled book if you ask me. *cough* A part of his theory on the masterminds behind the '83 embassy bombings involves a former PLO turned Hezbollah operative named Imad Mughniyeh . Baer claims that Mughniyeh is was still in contact with his old Fatah contacts when the embassy was bombed.

Besides the embassy bombing Mughniyeh was blamed for a lot of other terrorist acts that I think are based on nothing more than circumstantial evidence. Contemporary analysis suggests it's basically the "Blame Putin!" trope in action.

-The name of the alleged defector from the Iranian Revolutionary Guard was actually a deputy defense minister and former brigadier general named Ali Reza Asgari . There was and still probably is controversy whether he was kidnapped or defected. The Iranians wouldn't want it known that such a high ranking defector went over to the West hence the kidnapping story.

Hah! Guess not posting much for a few months finally caught up with me.

[Apr 12, 2017] Did Assad Really Use Sarin

Notable quotes:
"... is a journalist based in Madison, WI whose work focuses on the Middle East. He can be reached via Twitter @paulgottinger or email: [email protected] ..."
Apr 12, 2017 | www.counterpunch.org

Almost immediately after video of the alleged chemical weapons attack in Idlib hit Western media, Assad was declared guilty by US news networks and political commentators. The front page of the New York Times on April 5 th showed a heartbreaking image of a child wounded in the alleged chemical attack with a headline claiming Assad was responsible.

By the afternoon of April 7, a US attack seemed inevitable as both Rex Tillerson and Trump said action would be taken.

Between Democrats and Republicans, a bipartisan consensus emerged, rare in the Trump presidency, whereby Assad was deemed guilty and Trump was goaded on to attack. The few voices of dissent seemed mostly concerned with the lack of constitutional approval for the strike

The night of the strike, US media snapped into DPRK-style, state media mode. TV pundits fell into a trance while expressing the " beauty " of American power being unleashed on a country already destroyed by 6 years of war.

Pundits described the attack as "surgical" despite the pentagon quietly admitting one of the missiles missed its target and they don't know where it landed. My questions to both CENTCOM and the Secretary of Defense Office on the missing cruise missile have thus far gone unanswered. However, Syrian sources claim civilians were killed in the missile strike.

Trump justified the attack by invoking religiously themed buzzwords and unconvincing blather on the "beautiful babies" murdered in the chemical attack.

Following the attack, Trump officials' statements indicated there was a shift towards regime change. UN ambassador Nikki Haley said Sunday that removing Assad is now a priority.

The Neocon sharks have started circling too. Bill Kristol tweeted that these strikes should be used to move towards regime change in Iran. Marco Rubio, Lindsey Graham, and John McCain have all joined in too, their mouths watering at the thought of ousting Assad.

But was Assad really responsible for the attack?

To ask such a question is to be deemed an "Assadist" by pundits and discourse police across the political spectrum.

Neither the lack of an independent investigation, nor the fact that nearly all the information on the alleged attack has come from rebel sources, who stand to benefit from a US response, is deemed sufficient cause for skepticism.

In a civilized society an actor is be presumed to be innocent until proven guilty. If guilt is determined, a legally justified course of action is taken. In the US however, if the accused is a US enemy, no evidence is needed, and even deranged conspiracies are given play in mainstream media coverage.

The best recent example of this is the US media's conspiracy about Russia stealing the US election and working for Trump. The US media has stooped so low as to even push bizarre conspiracies by Louise Mensch . She recently claimed the 2014 uprising in Ferguson was a Russian plot.

In the case of the alleged attack on Khan Sheikhun, US officials and pro-war experts immediately declared Assad's guilty and then cheered on an illegal use of force. This is all very reminiscent of the lead up to the Iraq war.

In an eerie coincidence, Michael R. Gordon, who with Judith Miller helped sell the Iraq WMD story to Americans, coauthored the New York Times April 4th article on Assad's alleged sarin attack at Khan Sheikhun.

To help sell the sarin narrative, the US media brought on a doctor to describe the alleged attack that has been accused of helping kidnap journalists in his work with extremists.

When the US investigated its own airstrike in Mosul this March, it took a number of days before it admitted it had killed hundreds of civilians. Yet, guilt was immediately assigned in the Khan Sheikhun attack.

In 2013, the US media also rushed to the conclusion Assad used sarin in a horrific incident in Ghouta. The US was on the verge of attacking Assad then, but Obama decided against it. Obama claimed he held off because US intelligence voiced skepticism about Assad's guilt.

The UN investigation on the Ghouta attack took almost a month and even its conclusions have been disputed.

In December of 2013, Seymour Hersh published a lengthy investigation into the 2013 attack in Ghouta and found reason to doubt Assad's responsibility for attack. He was forced to publish it in the London Review of Books after the New York Times and the Washington Post refused to run it.

He reported that classified US reports claimed that Syria's al Qaeda affiliate had "mastered the mechanics of creating sarin".

A month after Hersh's piece appeared, a MIT study cast further doubt on the US government's story by demonstrating that the rockets used in the Ghouta attack couldn't have flown as far as the US government claimed.

Ted Postol, one of the authors of the study said, "We were within a whisker of war based on egregious errors."

In this latest alleged gas attack, a few individuals have dared question the state narrative.

The journalist Robert Parry has recently claimed there is much to be made of the fact that Mike Pompeo, the CIA Director, wasn't among those helping sell this latest sarin story to the American people. He believes it indicates doubt in the CIA over Assad's involvement.

Scott Ritter, a former UN weapons inspector in Iraq, has raised skepticism over Assad's involvement. He says rebels have had chemical weapons facilities in Syria and some of the witnesses' statements describe a strong smell during the attack, which indicates something other than sarin was used.

The Canadian government originally called for an investigation and stopped short of blaming Assad at the UN, but then later championed Trump's strikes.

Groups like Organizations for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons and Human Rights Watch are still investigating the alleged attack in Khan Sheikhun.

Whether these groups or others will be able to conduct an independent investigation is not known. But in usual fashion, the US had no interest in investigating facts, which may provide the wrong answers.

It's possible that Assad carried out the attack, but just because he's a reprehensible figure doesn't mean there is no need to present evidence and conduct an independent investigation.

What's clear now is that the US attack benefitted jihadi groups, has made further US military action more likely, and has increased the chances of a direct military confrontation with Russia. All of these results are very dangerous.

Future US military action in Syria should be resisted with popular pressure. History shows we can't count on the media or pundits to act as the voice of reason. Join the debate on Facebook

Paul Gottinger is a journalist based in Madison, WI whose work focuses on the Middle East. He can be reached via Twitter @paulgottinger or email: [email protected]

[Mar 07, 2017] The Ever-Growing List of ADMITTED False Flag Attacks

Notable quotes:
"... they manage to demonize a country or individual who tries to do good in the region or for his nation. They appear to derive a sort of sick pleasure from picking out those who advocate stability and peace to paint them as dictators and monsters with lies in the disgusting MSM. Assad, Putin and Gaddafi come to mind. The whole "Assad killing his own people with chemical weapons" rubbish that was strewn all over the papers and tv ignoring reports that these were blatant false flags, while he and his wife worked tirelessly to help those displaced by the foreign invading armies of terrorists and mercenaries - these stories that are never told in the MSM - they tell me more about the despotic and insidious nature of the neocon influences in our daily lives than about the individuals they demonize. ..."
"... Quite frankly, I have no idea how the Russians could have withstood the constant libellous claims made against them. There have been moments when they seemed at the end of their patience, like when Lavrov stated point blank that Kerry was a liar, but their actions have been remarkable in their commitment to peace and justice for the victims of terror caused by the CIA and the rest of the captive US government ..."
"... What a batshit crazy bunch of evil bastards these neocons are - I cannot even begin to imagine what motivates them. Other than Tulsi Gabbard, Ron Paul, Dennis Kucinich, Paul Craig Robers and a few handful of sane people, there's virtually nobody trying to stop this juggernaut of evil fomenting another world war. ..."
"... The west supposedly can't stop ISIS' two lane road oil operation heading from Syria to Turkey, ..."
"... If you shutdown Langley, the worlds Fake Terrorist attacks would probably drop by 70%. Add another 20% if you shutdown Mossad, the remaining 10% being Germany, France, England ..."
"... Trust is a pleasant opiate. Always ask, " Cui bono ?" ..."
"... Capitalistic crisis in Europe a result of them running out of serfs. Ireland was on the receiving end of mass eastern European migration 10 + years ago. This totally smashed per capita net income. Eastern Europe has seen the biggest demographic crisis since ancient times, certainly on a par with the Great plague. They have transfered almost the entire youth of eastern Europe into the core usury centers. ..."
Mar 07, 2017 | www.zerohedge.com
by YHC-FTSE , Mar 7, 2017 10:17 PM

I've noticed this pattern of behaviour from the neocon zionists - they seem particularly keen, especially when they manage to demonize a country or individual who tries to do good in the region or for his nation. They appear to derive a sort of sick pleasure from picking out those who advocate stability and peace to paint them as dictators and monsters with lies in the disgusting MSM. Assad, Putin and Gaddafi come to mind. The whole "Assad killing his own people with chemical weapons" rubbish that was strewn all over the papers and tv ignoring reports that these were blatant false flags, while he and his wife worked tirelessly to help those displaced by the foreign invading armies of terrorists and mercenaries - these stories that are never told in the MSM - they tell me more about the despotic and insidious nature of the neocon influences in our daily lives than about the individuals they demonize.

Quite frankly, I have no idea how the Russians could have withstood the constant libellous claims made against them. There have been moments when they seemed at the end of their patience, like when Lavrov stated point blank that Kerry was a liar, but their actions have been remarkable in their commitment to peace and justice for the victims of terror caused by the CIA and the rest of the captive US government doing the bidding of the neocon zionists.

We're living in the strange twilight world of the empire of chaos, openly creating and supporting the most vile terrorists, conducting illegal acts of blanket surveillance, false flags and militarizing the globe with thousands of bases encroaching on people who never did us any harm. Poking and prodding them to get a reaction which they then paint as "aggression" and evidence for more encroachment of our military power. NATO's tanks are right on the border with Russia, US troops are deep in Syria rubbing shoulders with Al Qaeda and ISIS, 400 bases surround China with THAAD missiles being stationed to scan 3000km deep into China and Russia.

What a batshit crazy bunch of evil bastards these neocons are - I cannot even begin to imagine what motivates them. Other than Tulsi Gabbard, Ron Paul, Dennis Kucinich, Paul Craig Robers and a few handful of sane people, there's virtually nobody trying to stop this juggernaut of evil fomenting another world war.

Ms No -> YHC-FTSE , Mar 7, 2017 11:02 PM

I used to give the US public slack and blame the MSM for people's ignorance and general lack of giving a shit. Now I believe that they just don't want to know. The number one reason is cowardice. You can tell they know something when you mention key words such as CIA, NSA, Snowden, etc., and you can see their fear which commonly morphs quickly into anger towards you. It's almost as if by merely mentioning this you have brought them danger.

They don't care about others enough to want to be at risk themselves. Underneath it all they are afraid that you are right and they don't want to be at risk. They can't handle even discussing the fact that they themselves might end up in a similar danger as their nation goes despotic psycho. They just want to live in their own bubble and pretend that it isn't happening. They also seem to care about their children but no one else's. Most of these people know that they are favored in some way if they tow the line. They will always be following the safety of the crowd because it's in their interest, at least in the short term, and that's all they seem to care about. Cowards also have a tendency to prefer not to look to far down the road.

Oh Crap , Mar 7, 2017 8:08 PM

Do we think this will be an effective tool for either party to admit their own fault, participation, or other involvement in what happens on the Hill?

I think not.

JailBanksters , Mar 7, 2017 8:29 PM

The spy agencies have to keep creating False Flags by blowing people up or running over them to keep you safe, otherwise the Real Terrorists would be blowing people up or running over them.

Son of Captain Nemo , Mar 7, 2017 7:55 PM

Speaking of 9/11 and it's "legacy" for the U.S. military in the Department of Treason!!!!...

Doesn't get any more blatant than this ( https://southfront.org/us-trains-iraqi-special-forces-that-could-be-used... )

Russia, Iran, Syria... kill every single one of these "stars and stripes" motherfuckers when they set foot inside your Country again...

And from the looks of it, it already seems like we're close to "SPARKS" ( https://southfront.org/russian-us-military-jointly-operate-in-outskirts-... )

Ms No -> Son of Captain Nemo , Mar 7, 2017 10:46 PM

It's pretty bad when the US funds ISIS and one member of armed services committee has admitted such. The west supposedly can't stop ISIS' two lane road oil operation heading from Syria to Turkey, but they do have black hawks flying over the caravans guarding them, which everybody saw on video. The CIA can't stop Dabique because it's too "unsophisticated". Then the west has to evacuate their terrorists because big bad Russia is kicking the shit out of them in Syria (OMG was that awesome).

Then all of these "refugees" who are of fighting age, with cellphones and in designer jeans needed to flee the war zone. They get transported from all over the ME and Africa, including multiple areas that are not involved in the conflict but are loaded with ISIS, at somebodies expense. Then they of course, get placed on Europe's Welfare roles. Once in Europe they proceed with Soros style Maidan shit.

This doesn't even get into the building 7, box cutter, "lets rolls" episode of complete obvious bullshit, or the false fag shootings done by somebody working for a government security contract who also employed a crisis acting company and got caught smuggling "non Mexicans" into Phoenix. This of course also doesn't cover the fact that the US has constantly been busted arming Mexican drug cartels and watched the country next door fall to narco-terrorists and never did a damn thing about it.

And yet people still don't get it. It's flipping amazing.

The biggest one to me is that Mexico fell. There are people out there that actually believe that we are slaughtering in the ME and pushing for WWIII in order to make the world a free place. Meanwhile right next door a country fell to terrorism and not a peep. These fuckers are putting people in barrels of acid and they control the entire state now. We are lucky they didn't do us how they did Mexico, most likely because we are armed to the teeth. That could still be coming though. How could people be this stupid? I hate stupid people. ( ;

francis scott f... -> inosent , Mar 7, 2017 7:58 PM

The recent destabilization of the Middle East was just the opening act for the destabilization of America. False Flags out the wazoo. Got popcorn?

stampman -> RagnarRedux , Mar 7, 2017 7:45 PM

I agree, and had to stop reading as soon as "George" descended into Usual Suspect Mode by quoting the false zioinist record of events. This article is such fucking bullshit. No one gives a crap about all this "ancient history".

What is important are all of the false flags committed against the world since 9-11-2001.

The rest of this article is pure unadulterated bullshit.

JailBanksters , Mar 7, 2017 7:31 PM

If you shutdown Langley, the worlds Fake Terrorist attacks would probably drop by 70%. Add another 20% if you shutdown Mossad, the remaining 10% being Germany, France, England

rwe2late , Mar 7, 2017 7:21 PM

The Phoenix Program developed during the Vietnam War, is the foundation for US terrorism throughout the world. Assassination, torture, death squads, black sites, terror bombings and psy-ops to falsely blame atrocities on the "enemy", aka "false flags".

In fact, US "counter-terrorism(sic)" operations are necessarily false flag operations which rely (for PR) on discounting US terrorism and attributing atrocities to the enemy.

https://theinternationalreporter.org/2016/02/08/the-cias-phoenix-program...

Lumberjack , Mar 7, 2017 7:19 PM

I am positive they have more bullshit ready to go with the MSM...

Son of Captain Nemo , Mar 7, 2017 7:23 PM

Hey G.W.

That painting of the gal at the chalk board looks like Barrack Obama's mother... Was that deliberate?...

Might as well provide some of your knowledge on the "Dunham side" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFcZy-YJOM8 ) of Obama's aka Barry Soetoro's family's CIA past and his involvement in East Asia during his formative training before being selected on behalf of the American "sheep" for U.S. Senate and shortly thereafter President of the United States with NO credentials for either station.

stampman -> Son of Captain Nemo , Mar 7, 2017 8:04 PM

http://web.archive.org/web/20040627142700/eastandard.net/headlines/news2...

DbePrepared , Mar 7, 2017 7:12 PM

War is a racket! Major General Smedley Butler

roadhazard , Mar 7, 2017 5:33 PM

But what about Obama wire tapping Trump. Where's the beef. Fake News.

quesnay -> roadhazard , Mar 7, 2017 6:06 PM

What about the "Trump and all his staff are actually Russian spies" narrative?

AlbertthePudding , Mar 7, 2017 4:50 PM

Well..this is comprehensive..it seems the only real wars governments wage are against their own people to protect their power. The rest is Hollywood. I notice that Saudi false flags are missing from the list. Will the communication arm of the intelligence agencies ie the MSM publish any of this or even the latest Wikileaks Vault 7? This will be their swan song I bet.

FIAT CON , Mar 7, 2017 3:23 PM

I will say it again...What have we learned from our peers...Gov's....it's ok to lie, cheat, steal, and mass murder if it forwards your agenda. This will not end well... we need to spy on all gov's to keep them honest! An NSA for the people!

underthevolcano -> FIAT CON , Mar 7, 2017 5:40 PM

I'm pretty sure that is well under way. But what we really need to do is find a test to detect psychopaths, and eliminate them.

Conax , Mar 7, 2017 3:02 PM

The air and sea attack on the USS Liberty was an attempted false flag, but her brave and determined officers and men kept her afloat and most lived to tell the tale.

George Washington -> Conax , Mar 7, 2017 3:08 PM

Yes, sir. I just haven't found anyone to plain 'ole admit it.

Volaille de Bresse , Mar 7, 2017 2:43 PM

1956 : the British/french/Israeli "Suez" operation against Egyptian president Nasser. During one of the 1st meetings an Israeli official offered a plan : Tsahal would bomb an Israeli village and then blame Egyptian forces for it.

Sounds familiar? 9/11?

George Washington -> Volaille de Bresse , Mar 7, 2017 3:14 PM

Any admission? If so, I'll add it to the list.

barysenter , Mar 7, 2017 2:09 PM

Name one school or church where true history is taught. LaRouche, Birch Society and several famous and notorius individuals have been spectacularly reviled and sometimes murdered for speaking unvarnished truth, or doing Right.

Monsanto is IG Farben. Follow that thread.

underthevolcano -> barysenter , Mar 7, 2017 5:42 PM

Nazi's. All of them. They infiltrated the US government in the 1930's, and never left.

Hillarys Server , Mar 7, 2017 2:04 PM

And this is our shining house on a hill?

Smiddywesson , Mar 7, 2017 1:28 PM

" They were supposed to force these people, the Italian public, to turn to the state to ask for greater security" so that "a state of emergency could be declared, so people would willingly trade part of their freedom for the security"

The Second Amendment not only protects you from direct government aggression, it removes the need for you to give them your freedom in exchange for the promise they will protect you. Protecting yourself is a basic right.

THE DORK OF CORK , Mar 7, 2017 1:17 PM

Italy has again recorded it's lowest birth number on record. This is because it's youth now reside in the great money centers ( see London) in search of company tokens.

This depopulation is a repeat of the national phase of usury (Westphallia) where regions of France such as the Ariege was depopulated and concentrated in urban centers.

However the scale of population movements is of a different order.

Reaper , Mar 7, 2017 1:13 PM

Trust is a pleasant opiate. Always ask, " Cui bono ?"

THE DORK OF CORK , Mar 7, 2017 1:06 PM

Capitalistic crisis in Europe a result of them running out of serfs. Ireland was on the receiving end of mass eastern European migration 10 + years ago. This totally smashed per capita net income. Eastern Europe has seen the biggest demographic crisis since ancient times, certainly on a par with the Great plague. They have transfered almost the entire youth of eastern Europe into the core usury centers.

However births imploded after the fall of the wall. Post1990 kids do not exist in sufficient numbers.

[Feb 25, 2017] To understand neocon thinking you need to read Leo Strauss. It is all there, a "political philosophy" that somehow winds up with initiates convinced that they are a tiny elite that needs to lead dumb Americans in defending civilization, viz, the "West", against barbarism. After indoctrination diciples of Straus were ready literally to to jump in an F-16 and attack, well, just about anybody

Feb 25, 2017 | www.theamericanconservative.com

david robbins tien , says: February 24, 2017 at 7:49 am

To understand David Brooks' "thinking" just go back to his initiation by disciples of Leo Strauss during his undergraduate days at the University of Chicago. It is all there, a "political philosophy" that somehow winds up with initiates convinced that they are a tiny elite that needs to lead dumb Americans in defending civilization, viz, the "West", against barbarism. After my own indoctrination, I was ready to jump in an F-16 and attack, well, just about anybody. See Senator Tom Cotton, Bill Kristol, Paul Wolfowitz, Scooter Libby, etc., for other examples of the phenomenon. Washington is crawling with these guys and gals.

[Nov 27, 2016] American Pravda How the CIA Invented Conspiracy Theories by Ron Unz

Notable quotes:
"... The notion that nineteen Arabs armed with box-cutters hijacked several jetliners, easily evaded our NORAD air defenses, and reduced several landmark buildings to rubble would soon be universally ridiculed as the most preposterous "conspiracy theory" ever to have gone straight from the comic books into the minds of the mentally ill, easily surpassing the absurd "lone gunman" theory of the JFK assassination. ..."
"... Conspiracy Theory in America ..."
"... Based on an important FOIA disclosure, the book's headline revelation was that the CIA was very likely responsible for the widespread introduction of "conspiracy theory" as a term of political abuse, having orchestrated that development as a deliberate means of influencing public opinion. ..."
"... Conspiracy is simply a plan or agreement by more than one person to do something evil and then the pursuit of that plan. Secrecy may be needed for the success of a conspiracy, but it is not essential to the definition. ..."
"... Another problem with elite conspiracies is that elites usually do not have to act in secret because they already are in control. For Kennedy, a centrist cold warrior, his views already reflected those of elites, maybe even more so than Johnson. ..."
"... The rise of Trump, in the face of a completely and uniformly hostile media, suggests that a large part of the American public, consciously or not, now completely rejects entire media narratives and assumes the exact opposite to be true. And they're panicking. Not knowing what to do, they double and triple down on the same fail that got them into this mess. Truly interesting times. ..."
"... Conspiracies exist. Consider the Gulf of Tonkin fabrication which certainly involved many actors and yet the general public was kept in the dark about the real facts. The results need not be rehashed yet again. There's a streak of denial in most people. They don't want to contemplate the idea that FDR may have deliberately allowed American servicemen to die at Pearl Harbor in order to get the war he wanted. Stepping back from it all to get a long distance view one can see the patterns of deceit and manipulation all throughout American political life. It's not just incidental but rather is built in. ..."
"... Thank you for inserting the word "truther" into the conversation. It has always fascinated me that someone searching for the truth about a political issue is now automatically considered a conspiracy theorist. ..."
"... For example the government says that WTC7 completely collapsed in 7 seconds due to fire. You don't need to be smart to see something is wrong here (hint: most of the structural pillars were untouched by fire). ..."
"... While perhaps not necessary, the cockpit could have been filled with a tranquilizing gas to incapacitate all the pilots and (stooge) hijackers so that they would not interfere with the remote-controlled operation of the planes. ..."
"... Remember that these "deeply religious" Muslim "hijackers" went out drinking at a strip club the night of 9/10. Both are deep sins in Islam, not something someone is going to do when they are about to meet their Maker. Most likely they thought they were participating in a drill (since, in fact on the date of 9/11, a drill was taking place, having to do with - wait for it - airplanes being hijacked and flown into buildings). ..."
"... The precision and extreme competence of the flying maneuvers is readily explained by the auto-pilot feature. ..."
Sep 05, 2016 | www.unz.com
438 Comments

A year or two ago, I saw the much-touted science fiction film Interstellar , and although the plot wasn't any good, one early scene was quite amusing. For various reasons, the American government of the future claimed that our Moon Landings of the late 1960s had been faked, a trick aimed at winning the Cold War by bankrupting Russia into fruitless space efforts of its own. This inversion of historical reality was accepted as true by nearly everyone, and those few people who claimed that Neil Armstrong had indeed set foot on the Moon were universally ridiculed as "crazy conspiracy theorists." This seems a realistic portrayal of human nature to me.

Obviously, a large fraction of everything described by our government leaders or presented in the pages of our most respectable newspapers-from the 9/11 attacks to the most insignificant local case of petty urban corruption-could objectively be categorized as a "conspiracy theory" but such words are never applied. Instead, use of that highly loaded phrase is reserved for those theories, whether plausible or fanciful, that do not possess the endorsement stamp of establishmentarian approval.

Put another way, there are good "conspiracy theories" and bad "conspiracy theories," with the former being the ones promoted by pundits on mainstream television shows and hence never described as such. I've sometimes joked with people that if ownership and control of our television stations and other major media outlets suddenly changed, the new information regime would require only a few weeks of concerted effort to totally invert all of our most famous "conspiracy theories" in the minds of the gullible American public. The notion that nineteen Arabs armed with box-cutters hijacked several jetliners, easily evaded our NORAD air defenses, and reduced several landmark buildings to rubble would soon be universally ridiculed as the most preposterous "conspiracy theory" ever to have gone straight from the comic books into the minds of the mentally ill, easily surpassing the absurd "lone gunman" theory of the JFK assassination.

Even without such changes in media control, huge shifts in American public beliefs have frequently occurred in the recent past, merely on the basis of implied association. In the initial weeks and months following the 2001 attacks, every American media organ was enlisted to denounce and vilify Osama Bin Laden, the purported Islamicist master-mind, as our greatest national enemy, with his bearded visage endlessly appearing on television and in print, soon becoming one of the most recognizable faces in the world. But as the Bush Administration and its key media allies prepared a war against Iraq, the images of the Burning Towers were instead regularly juxtaposed with mustachioed photos of dictator Saddam Hussein, Bin Laden's arch-enemy. As a consequence, by the time we attacked Iraq in 2003, polls revealed that some 70% of the American public believed that Saddam was personally involved in the destruction of our World Trade Center. By that date I don't doubt that many millions of patriotic but low-information Americans would have angrily denounced and vilified as a "crazy conspiracy theorist" anyone with the temerity to suggest that Saddam had not been behind 9/11, despite almost no one in authority having ever explicitly made such a fallacious claim.

These factors of media manipulation were very much in my mind a couple of years ago when I stumbled across a short but fascinating book published by the University of Texas academic press. The author of Conspiracy Theory in America was Prof. Lance deHaven-Smith, a former president of the Florida Political Science Association.

Based on an important FOIA disclosure, the book's headline revelation was that the CIA was very likely responsible for the widespread introduction of "conspiracy theory" as a term of political abuse, having orchestrated that development as a deliberate means of influencing public opinion.

During the mid-1960s there had been increasing public skepticism about the Warren Commission findings that a lone gunman, Lee Harvey Oswald, had been solely responsible for President Kennedy's assassination, and growing suspicions that top-ranking American leaders had also been involved. So as a means of damage control, the CIA distributed a secret memo to all its field offices requesting that they enlist their media assets in efforts to ridicule and attack such critics as irrational supporters of "conspiracy theories." Soon afterward, there suddenly appeared statements in the media making those exact points, with some of the wording, arguments, and patterns of usage closely matching those CIA guidelines. The result was a huge spike in the pejorative use of the phrase, which spread throughout the American media, with the residual impact continuing right down to the present day. Thus, there is considerable evidence in support of this particular "conspiracy theory" explaining the widespread appearance of attacks on "conspiracy theories" in the public media.

But although the CIA appears to have effectively manipulated public opinion in order to transform the phrase "conspiracy theory" into a powerful weapon of ideological combat, the author also describes how the necessary philosophical ground had actually been prepared a couple of decades earlier. Around the time of the Second World War, an important shift in political theory caused a huge decline in the respectability of any "conspiratorial" explanation of historical events.

For decades prior to that conflict, one of our most prominent scholars and public intellectuals had been historian Charles Beard , whose influential writings had heavily focused on the harmful role of various elite conspiracies in shaping American policy for the benefit of the few at the expense of the many, with his examples ranging from the earliest history of the United States down to the nation's entry into WWI. Obviously, researchers never claimed that all major historical events had hidden causes, but it was widely accepted that some of them did, and attempting to investigate those possibilities was deemed a perfectly acceptable academic enterprise.

However, Beard was a strong opponent of American entry into the Second World War, and he was marginalized in the years that followed, even prior to his death in 1948. Many younger public intellectuals of a similar bent also suffered the same fate, or were even purged from respectability and denied any access to the mainstream media. At the same time, the totally contrary perspectives of two European political philosophers, Karl Popper and Leo Strauss , gradually gained ascendancy in American intellectual circles, and their ideas became dominant in public life.

Popper, the more widely influential, presented broad, largely theoretical objections to the very possibility of important conspiracies ever existing, suggesting that these would be implausibly difficult to implement given the fallibility of human agents; what might appear a conspiracy actually amounted to individual actors pursuing their narrow aims. Even more importantly, he regarded "conspiratorial beliefs" as an extremely dangerous social malady, a major contributing factor to the rise of Nazism and other deadly totalitarian ideologies. His own background as an individual of Jewish ancestry who had fled Austria in 1937 surely contributed to the depth of his feelings on these philosophical matters.

Meanwhile, Strauss, a founding figure in modern neo-conservative thought, was equally harsh in his attacks upon conspiracy analysis, but for polar-opposite reasons. In his mind, elite conspiracies were absolutely necessary and beneficial, a crucial social defense against anarchy or totalitarianism, but their effectiveness obviously depended upon keeping them hidden from the prying eyes of the ignorant masses. His main problem with "conspiracy theories" was not that they were always false, but they might often be true, and therefore their spread was potentially disruptive to the smooth functioning of society. So as a matter of self-defense, elites needed to actively suppress or otherwise undercut the unauthorized investigation of suspected conspiracies.

Even for most educated Americans, theorists such as Beard, Popper, and Strauss are probably no more than vague names mentioned in textbooks, and that was certainly true in my own case. But while the influence of Beard seems to have largely disappeared in elite circles, the same is hardly true of his rivals. Popper probably ranks as one of the founders of modern liberal thought, with an individual as politically influential as left-liberal financier George Soros claiming to be his intellectual disciple . Meanwhile, the neo-conservative thinkers who have totally dominated the Republican Party and the Conservative Movement for the last couple of decades often proudly trace their ideas back to Strauss.

So, through a mixture of Popperian and Straussian thinking, the traditional American tendency to regard elite conspiracies as a real but harmful aspect of our society was gradually stigmatized as either paranoid or politically dangerous, laying the conditions for its exclusion from respectable discourse.

By 1964, this intellectual revolution had largely been completed, as indicated by the overwhelmingly positive reaction to the famous article by political scientist Richard Hofstadter critiquing the so-called "paranoid style" in American politics , which he denounced as the underlying cause of widespread popular belief in implausible conspiracy theories. To a considerable extent, he seemed to be attacking straw men, recounting and ridiculing the most outlandish conspiratorial beliefs, while seeming to ignore the ones that had been proven correct. For example, he described how some of the more hysterical anti-Communists claimed that tens of thousands of Red Chinese troops were hidden in Mexico, preparing an attack on San Diego, while he failed to even acknowledge that for years Communist spies had indeed served near the very top of the U.S. government. Not even the most conspiratorially minded individual suggests that all alleged conspiracies are true, merely that some of them might be.

Most of these shifts in public sentiment occurred before I was born or when I was a very young child, and my own views were shaped by the rather conventional media narratives that I absorbed. Hence, for nearly my entire life, I always automatically dismissed all of the so-called "conspiracy theories" as ridiculous, never once even considering that any of them might possibly be true.

To the extent that I ever thought about the matter, my reasoning was simple and based on what seemed like good, solid common sense. Any conspiracy responsible for some important public event must surely have many separate "moving parts" to it, whether actors or actions taken, let us say numbering at least 100 or more. Now given the imperfect nature of all attempts at concealment, it would surely be impossible for all of these to be kept entirely hidden. So even if a conspiracy were initially 95% successful in remaining undetected, five major clues would still be left in plain sight for investigators to find. And once the buzzing cloud of journalists noticed these, such blatant evidence of conspiracy would certainly attract an additional swarm of energetic investigators, tracing those items back to their origins, with more pieces gradually being uncovered until the entire cover-up likely collapsed. Even if not all the crucial facts were ever determined, at least the simple conclusion that there had indeed been some sort of conspiracy would quickly become established.

However, there was a tacit assumption in my reasoning, one that I have since decided was entirely false. Obviously, many potential conspiracies either involve powerful governmental officials or situations in which their disclosure would represent a source of considerable embarrassment to such individuals. But I had always assumed that even if government failed in its investigatory role, the dedicated bloodhounds of the Fourth Estate would invariably come through, tirelessly seeking truth, ratings, and Pulitzers. However, once I gradually began realizing that the media was merely "Our American Pravda" and perhaps had been so for decades, I suddenly recognized the flaw in my logic. If those five-or ten or twenty or fifty-initial clues were simply ignored by the media, whether through laziness, incompetence, or much less venial sins, then there would be absolutely nothing to prevent successful conspiracies from taking place and remaining undetected, perhaps even the most blatant and careless ones.

In fact, I would extend this notion to a general principle. Substantial control of the media is almost always an absolute prerequisite for any successful conspiracy, the greater the degree of control the better. So when weighing the plausibility of any conspiracy, the first matter to investigate is who controls the local media and to what extent.

Let us consider a simple thought-experiment. For various reasons these days, the entire American media is extraordinarily hostile to Russia, certainly much more so than it ever was toward the Communist Soviet Union during the 1970s and 1980s. Hence I would argue that the likelihood of any large-scale Russian conspiracy taking place within the operative zone of those media organs is virtually nil. Indeed, we are constantly bombarded with stories of alleged Russian conspiracies that appear to be "false positives," dire allegations seemingly having little factual basis or actually being totally ridiculous. Meanwhile, even the crudest sort of anti-Russian conspiracy might easily occur without receiving any serious mainstream media notice or investigation.

This argument may be more than purely hypothetical. A crucial turning point in America's renewed Cold War against Russia was the passage of the 2012 Magnitsky Act by Congress, punitively targeting various supposedly corrupt Russian officials for their alleged involvement in the illegal persecution and death of an employee of Bill Browder, an American hedge-fund manager with large Russian holdings. However, there's actually quite a bit of evidence that it was Browder himself who was actually the mastermind and beneficiary of the gigantic corruption scheme, while his employee was planning to testify against him and was therefore fearful of his life for that reason. Naturally, the American media has provided scarcely a single mention of these remarkable revelations regarding what might amount to a gigantic Magnitsky Hoax of geopolitical significance.

To some extent the creation of the Internet and the vast proliferation of alternative media outlets, including my own small webzine , have somewhat altered this depressing picture. So it is hardly surprising that a very substantial fraction of the discussion dominating these Samizdat-like publications concerns exactly those subjects regularly condemned as "crazy conspiracy theories" by our mainstream media organs. Such unfiltered speculation must surely be a source of considerable irritation and worry to government officials who have long relied upon the complicity of their tame media organs to allow their serious misdeeds to pass unnoticed and unpunished. Indeed, several years ago a senior Obama Administration official argued that the free discussion of various "conspiracy theories" on the Internet was so potentially harmful that government agents should be recruited to "cognitively infiltrate" and disrupt them, essentially proposing a high-tech version of the highly controversial Cointelpro operations undertaken by J. Edgar Hoover's FBI.

Until just a few years ago I'd scarcely even heard of Charles Beard, once ranked among the towering figures of 20th century American intellectual life . But the more I've discovered the number of serious crimes and disasters that have completely escaped substantial media scrutiny, the more I wonder what other matters may still remain hidden. So perhaps Beard was correct all along in recognizing the respectability of "conspiracy theories," and we should return to his traditional American way of thinking, notwithstanding endless conspiratorial propaganda campaigns by the CIA and others to persuade us that we should dismiss such notions without any serious consideration.

For Further Reading:

  1. Kirt says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 4:26 am GMT • 100 Words

    Conspiracy is simply a plan or agreement by more than one person to do something evil and then the pursuit of that plan. Secrecy may be needed for the success of a conspiracy, but it is not essential to the definition.

    Were it essential to the definition, you could never prove the existence of a conspiracy. Either secrecy would be maintained and there would be little or no evidence or secrecy would not be maintained and the plan would become known and by definition not be a conspiracy.

    • Replies: @Erik Sieven "Conspiracy is simply a plan or agreement by more than one person to do something evil and then the pursuit of that plan." but probably everything think that what he does is good, not evil Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  2. Pat Casey says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 4:55 am GMT • 100 Words

    "We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false."

    –William Casey, CIA Director, from a first staff meeting in 1981

    You can read the context of that quote according to the person who claims to be its original source here:

    https://www.quora.com/Did-William-Casey-CIA-Director-really-say-Well-know-our-disinformation-program-is-complete-when-everything-the-American-public-believes-is-false

    I think it's worth pointing out what I've never seen explained about that quote, a quote with as much currency in the conspiracy theory fever swamps as any single quote has ever had. The point of the disinformation campaign was not to manipulate the public but to manipulate the soviets. Because our CIA analysts spent so much time unriddling the soviet media, we figured their CIA analysts were doing the same thing with ours.

    • Replies: @AnotherLover People dismiss obviousness and redundancy, yet often both are necessary to fully paint the picture. Where you wrote:

    "The point of the disinformation campaign was not to manipulate the public but to manipulate the soviets"

    you could have been more accurate by continuing:

    "by manipulating the public."

    Ah, redundant and obvious to be sure, but more complete, no? Should it pacify the average prole to know that not even their acquiescence is desired of them, but that they are useful as a disinformation tool? Have things changed since then? Is less intelligence publicly available today? Or more? And what lessons did the CIA learn in manipulating public opinion by domestic propaganda operations in the meantime?

    Sure, the context of the quote adds the realism it's clearly lacking as it floats by itself surrounded by quotation marks, yet the takeaway is the same, is it not? A massive intelligence operation designed to confuse the public with the media is what we've got on the table. Let that sink in good and hard. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  3. FKA Max says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 4:56 am GMT • 400 Words

    Mr. Unz,

    this study/paper might by of interest to you: emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/CONSPIRE.doc

    [MORE]

    Note: This paper was published in Political Psychology 15: 733-744, 1994. This is the original typescript sent to the journal, it does not include any editorial changes that may have been made. The journal itself is not available online, to my knowledge.

    Belief in Conspiracy Theories

    Ted Goertzel1

    Running Head: Belief in Conspiracy Theories.

    KEY WORDS: conspiracy theories, anomia, trust

    Table Three
    Means Scores of Racial/Ethnic Groups on Attitude Scales
    White[W] Hispanic[H] Black[B]
    Scale
    Belief in Conspiracies 2.5[W] 2.8[H] 3.3[B]
    Anomia 3.4[W] 3.8[H] 4.1[B]
    Trust 3.7[W] 3.3[H] 3.1[B]
    Note: All scales varied from 1 to 5, with 3 as a neutral score.

    One of the most interesting discussions of the paper:

    It is puzzling that conspiratorial thinking has been overlooked in the extensive research on authoritarianism which has dominated quantitative work in political psychology since the 1950s. One possible explanation is that much of this work focuses on right-wing authoritarianism (Altmeyer, 1988), while conspiratorial thinking is characteristic of alienated thinkers on both the right and the left (Citrin, et al., 1975; Graumann, 1987; Berlet, 1992). Even more surprisingly, however, conspiratorial thinking has not been a focus of the efforts to measure "left-wing authoritarianism" (Stone, 1980; Eysenck, 1981; LeVasseur & Gold, 1993) or of research with the "dogmatism" concept (Rokeach, 1960) which was intended to overcome the ideological bias in authoritarianism measures.
    On a more fundamental level, the difficulty with existing research traditions may be their focus on the content of beliefs rather than the res[p]ondent's cognitive processes or emotional makeup. As I have argued elsewhere (Goertzel, 1987), most studies of authoritarianism simply ask people what they believe and then assume that these beliefs must be based on underlying psychological processes which go unmeasured. Since these scales ask mostly about beliefs held by those on the right, it is not surprising that they find authoritarianism to be a right-wing phenomenon. Research with projective tests (Rothman and Lichter, 1982) and biographical materials (Goertzel, 1992), on the other hand, has confirmed that many aspects of authoritarian thinking can be found on both the left and the right.

    Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  4. Carlton Meyer says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 5:08 am GMT • 900 Words

    One of the greatest conspiracy theories of our time is that Osama Bin Laden was responsible for 9-11. This is refuted by the US government, despite occasional suggestions by political leaders. From my blog, that has links:

    May 21, 2016 – Another 9-11 Truther

    [MORE]
    In my April 16th blog post, I mentioned that former Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman and 9-11 Commission co-chair Bob Graham had become a "Truther", i.e. one who openly doubts the official 9-11 story. It seems the powers that be tried to shut him up. Rep. Brad Sherman (D-Calif.) openly criticized the Obama administration for trying to strong-arm Graham, who is pushing to declassify 28 pages of the 9/11 report dealing with Saudi Arabia. He recounted how Rep. Gwen Graham (D-Fla.) and her father, former Senator Bob Graham (D-Fla.), were detained by the FBI at Dulles International Airport outside Washington. He said the FBI "took a former senator, a former governor, grabbed him in an airport, hustled him into a room with armed force to try to intimidate him into taking different positions on issues of public policy and important national policy."

    Last week, another Republican member of the 9-11 Commission, former Navy Secretary John F Lehman, said there was clear evidence that Saudi government employees were part of a support network for the 9/11 hijackers – an allegation, congressional officials have confirmed, that is addressed in detail in the 28 pages. Lehman said: "there was an awful lot of participation by Saudi individuals in supporting the hijackers, and some of those people worked in the Saudi government."Events this past year in Syria highlighted close ties between Saudi Arabia, Israel, and our CIA. The 9-11 attacks generated the "Pearl Harbor" type of anger they needed to rally the American people to support their semi-secret plan to conquer all the Arab world.

    Here is a summary of events for those confused by American corporate media. Al Qaeda is not an organization. It is a CIA computer database of armed Arab nationalists who violently oppose western domination of the Arab world. (Al Qaeda is Arabic for database.) This database was established by the CIA in the 1980s when our CIA trained and armed Arabs to fight the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Osama Bin Laden (OBL) was never an official leader since it has never been a real organization, although he did lead a large group of Arab nationalists who lived in Afghanistan.

    OBL had nothing to do with 9-11, he didn't even know about it until it was reported in the media. He was never formally accused of the attacks because there is zero evidence. OBL was a wealthy Saudi who is said to have inspired the attacks. Our government blamed a Kuwaiti, Khalid Shaikh Mohammad (pictured), and a dozen Saudis who died in the airplanes. These persons had never been to Afghanistan and are said to have planned and trained for the attacks in the Philippines, Germany, and the USA. Then why was Afghanistan invaded, and later Iraq, Syria, Somalia, Sudan, Libya, and Yemen? But we did not invade Saudi Arabia! Instead, recall that days after 9-11 several jets from our federal Justice Department rounded up Saudi suspects in the USA and flew them home before FBI agents could ask them questions.

    All this explains why the accused mastermind of the attacks, Khalid Shaikh Mohammad, has yet to go to trial almost 16 years since 9-11! He has not been allowed to speak to anyone outside the CIA. Even the 9-11 Commission was not allowed to interview him. The U.S. military set up a kangaroo court at Gitmo to hold a trial many years ago, but brave military defense lawyers keep causing delays by insisting on a fair trial. It seems evidence is so "sensitive" that our CIA does not want it revealed. even in a secret military court. Whenever documents are requested by the defense, some are destroyed instead! This included all the CIA interrogations of the accused!

    Our media propaganda is so prevalent that nearly all Americans think OBL was the 9-11 mastermind, and since he is dead the case is closed. However, there is zero evidence of his involvement, something our government has long acknowledged. Americans watched thousands of hours of television coverage of the 9-11 attacks. Ask one if they think the accused mastermind of the attacks should be put on trial, and they'll have no idea what you are talking about. More Americans are becoming aware and demanding action, who are demeaned as crazy "truthers", which now include two former members of our government's official 9-11 Commission once tasked with investigating these crimes.

    The failed invasion of Syria has revealed that the Saudis, our CIA (with its defense contractor and media allies), and Israel have been working to conquer all the Arab world and control it with corruption and puppet dictators. Over the past couple years the Saudi government has changed hands and this CIA-Saudi-Israeli alliance has frayed, mostly because of failures in Syria and Yemen. Will the Saudis now be blamed for 9-11 to satisfy public demands for the truth, and to protect other conspirators? Will this lead to a CIA-Israeli coup to take over Saudi Arabia? Or will other high-level truthers surface and expose our nation's darkest secret? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  5. Lot says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 5:14 am GMT • 100 Words

    Given how easy it is to create a conspiracy theory, most of them will be crazy.

    Another problem with elite conspiracies is that elites usually do not have to act in secret because they already are in control. For Kennedy, a centrist cold warrior, his views already reflected those of elites, maybe even more so than Johnson.

    The other problem is that actual criminal conspiracies by elites quite often are discovered, such as Watergate and Iran Contra.

    • Replies: @Abraham
    Given how easy it is to create a conspiracy theory, most of them will be crazy.

    A statement that appears straight out of the CIA's playbook.

    Another problem with elite conspiracies is that elites usually do not have to act in secret because they already are in control.

    Such control does not imply they have nothing to hide, particularly when exposure of the deed would have damaging repercussions for them.

    For Kennedy, a centrist cold warrior, his views already reflected those of elites, maybe even more so than Johnson.

    It didn't reflect that of Israel's elites.

    After JFK's assassination, American foreign policy vis a vis Israel was completely reversed under Johnson, who hung the crew of the USS Liberty out to dry.

    The other problem is that actual criminal conspiracies by elites quite often are discovered, such as Watergate and Iran Contra.

    How is this a problem? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  6. Chief Seattle says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 5:17 am GMT • 100 Words

    So, a conspiracy theory is a theory without media backing. There's no better recent example of this than when the DNC emails were released by wikileaks during their convention. The story put forth was that Russian hackers were responsible, and were trying to throw the election to their buddy Trump. The evidence for this? Zero. And yet it became a plausible explanation in the media, overnight.

    Maybe it's true, maybe not, but if the roles had been reversed, the media would be telling its proponents to take off their tin foil hats.

    • Replies: @art guerrilla ahhh, but 'Russkie!/squirrel!' worked, didn't it ? ? ?
    virtually NOTHING about the actual content of the emails...
    what was hysterical, was a followup not too long afterwards, where pelosi 'warned' that there might be a whole raft of other emails which said bad stuff and stuff, and, um, they were -like- probably, um, all, uh, fake and stuff...
    it really is a funny tragi-comedy, isn't it ? ? ?
    ...then why am i crying inside... , @anti_republocrat Note also that the allegations immediately become "fact" because they were reported by someone else. As Business Insider reported, "Amid mounting evidence of Russia's involvement in the hack of the Democratic National Committee...," without any specificity whatsoever as to what that "mounting evidence" was (most likely multiple reports in other media) never mind that the article goes on to quote James Clapper, "...we are not quite ready yet to make a call on attribution." WTF! Here, read it yourself: http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-dnc-hack-black-propaganda-2016-7

    Totally mindless. So not only is Russia hacking, but we know it's intention is to influence US elections!!! And now their hacking voter DBs and will likely hack our vote tabulating machines. You can't make this s**t up. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  7. Miro23 says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 5:20 am GMT • 300 Words

    The British and Americans have been the victims of conspiracies (False Flag operations) for years.

    For example:

    The Irgun bombing of the King David Hotel (headquarters of the British Mandate Government of Palestine) in which Zionist activists dressed as Arabs placed milk churns filled with explosives against the main columns of the building killing 91 people and injuring 44. Israeli prime Minister Netanyahu, attended a celebration to commemorate the event.

    Operation Susannah (Lavon Affair) where Israeli operatives impersonating Arabs bombed British and American cinemas, libraries and educational centers in Egypt to destabilize the country and keep British troops committed to the Middle East.

    Or June 8, 1967, the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty with unmarked aircraft and torpedo boats. 34 men were killed and 171 wounded, with the attack in international waters following over nine hours of close surveillance. When the ship failed to sink, the Israeli government concocted an elaborate story to cover the crime. Original plan to blame the sinking with all lives lost on the Egyptians and draw the US into the war.

    Or Israelis and U.S. Zionists appearing all over the most recent WTC 9/11 "Operation" with Israelis once again impersonating Arabs in a historic deception/terror action of a type that seems to carry a lot of kudos with old Israeli ex-terrorist Likudniks. Israeli agents were sent to film the historic day (as they later admitted on Israeli TV), with the celebrations including photos of themselves with a background of the burning towers where thousands of Americans were being incinerated.

    Iraq was destroyed as a result of 9/11 but unfortunately for the conspirators, the momentum wasn't sufficient for a general war including Iran. Also the general war would have included the nuclear angle and justified the activation of a neo-con led Emergency Regime (dictatorship) in the US enforced with the newly printed Patriot Act and Homeland Security troops – or maybe that's just another Conspiracy Theory?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz I accept that your explanation of the attack on USS Liberty is relatively plausible but another which runs it close is that Israel had to ensure that there was no proof left of the true order of events which were not in accordance with the Israeli official version. So I ask what are your sources?

    Likewise, if you are saying that suicidal hijackers flew planes into buildings on 9/11 but that it was organised by Mossad or other Israelis your story needs a lot of filling out and evidence to be credible. Or are you merely saying the Israelis knew what was going to
    happen and let it go ahead because it could be turned to their advantage? , @Konga So true!
    But you forgot the two missiles shot from a NATO naval and HQ base in Spain towards Damascus, shot down by the Russians (two weeks before the "agreement" on chemical weapons, remember?) and then attributed to Israel's drills turned wrong... , @exiled off mainstreet The Israelis learned their false flag lesson from the Nazis, who used concentration camp inmates dressed as Polish soldiers as part of a phony attack on the frontier radio station "Sender Gleiwitz" a day or so before they invaded Poland. , @WowJustWow Come on. If you're going to false-flag 9/11, you hijack one plane. Hijacking four planes is exactly the kind of plan that has too many moving parts to be sensible. And it didn't go according to plan! Only three out of four planes hit their targets. If the hijackers on United 93 had been fully subdued and found to be Israelis in funny clothes, the other three planes would have been for nothing.

    I can see the USS Liberty one though. I've never heard a plausible explanation for it. Reply , @Sam Shama [Oh well, a delicious sweet dish will attract a fly as much as a gourmet.]

    LOL. I'll compile a mental list of both. Aren't the comments missing someone btw? , Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  8. Jason Liu says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 6:19 am GMT

    Kinda hinges on how people define conspiracy, doesn't it? Does a group of powerful people scheming constitute a conspiracy, or does it need to be lizard people in the White House?

    The former assuredly happens all the time. And those conspiracies are likely quite boring.

    • Replies: @Nathan Hale Correct. Of course conspiracies are real.

    Among the more famous ones include:

    The Watergate break-in and the coverup.

    Operation Valkyrie and other plots against Hitler.

    The overthrow of the Arbenz in Guatemala in 1954.

    In the corporate world, it often seems that upper management spends a bulk of their time conspiring against one another or entering into secret talks to sell the company to a rival, unbeknownst to the employees or shareholders. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
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  9. Emblematic says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 7:17 am GMT

    I get the sense Ron's building up to something.

    For those who haven't seen it, can I recommend Ryan Dawson's 'War by Deception':

    • Replies: @Pat Casey
    I get the sense Ron's building up to something.
    One can only hope. This time he mentioned 9/11--- so that base is covered; no need to say more about that than that; besides I doubt even he could add to what has already been published and posted on this site re that Big Lie. I would like to see how he weighs all the evidence on RFK's assassination, what he would be willing to call what looks like nothing as much as what MK-Ultra was about. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  10. polistra says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 8:03 am GMT • 100 Words

    Simplifying one "contradiction": Our elites have never been primarily anti-Russian or pro-Russian.

    Since 1946 our elites have been purely GLOBALIST, and their secondary feelings toward Russia strictly follow from this primary goal.

    At first Russia was an obstacle to globalism, blocking much of the UN's efforts. Our elites were anti-Russian. After 1962 or so, Russia became the main driver of the UN, so our elites were pro-Russian. Since 1989, Russia has been the guiding star for ANTI-globalist forces, so our elites are FEROCIOUSLY anti-Russian.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz I have a problem with the idea of likeminded elites who all move in srep together. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  11. smiddy says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 8:13 am GMT • 500 Words

    Mr. Unz's direct confrontation with this topic leads me to feel a sense of sentimentality or coming full circle as my "red-pilled" experience literally started with his The Myth of American Meritocracy a little over 2 years ago (I finally looked into the "white privilege" I was "highly exposed" to in college).

    Long story short, I was a lazy liberal beforehand, now a highly motivated conservative; nothing helps one get their ish together better than understanding the trajectory at which our society is heading. The Myth of American Meritocracy singularly led me to have a more open mind in understanding how non-congruent the mainstream narrative can be with man's shared universal reality, and having spent way too much time in school learning research methodology, I finally applied it via whim thereafter to criminal statistics (but we know where this story ends), then WW2, the mainstream narrative of which I grew up worshiping

    For someone who, when I was naive, hung on to every word one heard or read in the countless amount of hours I've spent in American history classes, for me to learn the hard way of Operation Keelhaul, the Haavara Agreement, the disease epidemic, the migrant crisis (before hand), the hand THE banksters probably played (in playing both sides), and so on, it becomes all too clear how amazingly systematically corrupt our academic system has become. Not once did I ever hear one smidgen about those extremely large plot points; they're so consistently implicitly left out of the script its terrifying.

    Alternating to my freshman year of high school now, when I was still naive, I complained to our just hired 22 year old (conveniently) Jewish teacher (fresh out of the Ivy League but back to sacrifice where he had graduated high school, he had always reminded us) over having to read about the Little Rock 9 and Ann Frank for literally (in my case) the 4th time (each). Point is, even when I was entirely clueless, and had no defensive instinct at all, it still didn't feel healthy to read over and over again; I was emotionally exhausted already. I accepted their stories at face value, faced the guilt, and just wanted to move on, yet according to my teacher I "lacked empathy" (so if only we were taught about how the Irish were treated in the 17th we'd be fine). It really is this kind of dwelling on the past that has been institutionalized, and its borderline brain-washing, regardless of the said tragedy's validity.

    There is one such particular event of WW2 that, once naive, I've personally cried over more than any other historical event easily (perhaps even more than anything subjectively experienced), much in thanks to programmed televising So what's so weird about all of this, is its like a meta-intellectual betrayal, but with all the emotional connotations of a woman who wronged you in all the worse ways (and she's inevitably waiting in seemingly every dark corner of history you delve into, thus the "endless rabbit hole" you fall through). And its this implicit brand of deceit that is patently feminine which can be inductively read from the MSM to "read the tea leaves"

    I could go on and on but really I initially just wanted to thank you Mr. Unz, your publication, and your current and past writing staff. I don't even want to imagine a world where I had never stumbled upon your work!

    Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  12. Gordo says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 9:11 am GMT

    Excellent article Mr. Unz.

  13. JL says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 10:40 am GMT • 100 Words

    Perhaps the media tried too hard, were too eager to be complicit, and now they've completely lost the plot. The rise of Trump, in the face of a completely and uniformly hostile media, suggests that a large part of the American public, consciously or not, now completely rejects entire media narratives and assumes the exact opposite to be true. And they're panicking. Not knowing what to do, they double and triple down on the same fail that got them into this mess. Truly interesting times.

    Thanks, Mr. Unz, for your "small webzine".

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
    The rise of Trump, in the face of a completely and uniformly hostile media, suggests that a large part of the American public, consciously or not, now completely rejects entire media narratives and assumes the exact opposite to be true. And they're panicking.
    Are they? Or, have they simply fired the first few rounds of easily-dispatched, easily-targeted artillery? I do note that this is the most massive full-court press in support of the oligarchy that I have ever seen. But, I sense that political wars have moved from the court of public opinion and perception, into the courtyards of the moneyed elite. Inasmuch as no rich person has ever believed that he or she has enough money and power, the national political conflict is now composed solely of issues that affect the wealth and power of the 0.1%, which is itself segmented into areas of economic focus and varying forms of wealth acquisition. For example, if air transport systems threaten the wealth and power of ocean-based shipping, that competition between oligarchs will morph into politically-expressed contexts.

    There is absolutely no concern, anywhere within the dominion of the 0.1%, with human values, human rights, or any of that sort of ethically-principled hoo-hoo. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  14. Gene Tuttle says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 10:41 am GMT • 300 Words

    I've often used the argument myself that conspiracies inevitably have short shelf lives in the US because it was so difficult for Americans to keep secrets. The article makes a useful point in suggesting that secret plots, even after being revealed, may nevertheless remain widely ignored. Ideology, group-think, pack journalism etc. are powerful forces, often subconsciously at work, preventing alternative theories from developing legs.

    Though long an admirer of Karl Popper, I hadn't strongly associated him with attacks on conspiracy theories per se. As an American "outsider" living abroad most of my adult life, I've all too often encountered those who assumed my background alone explained an argument of mine that they didn't like. Popper had hit the nail on the head when he wrote about

    "a widespread and dangerous fashion of our time of not taking arguments seriously, and at their face value, at least tentatively, but of seeing in them nothing but a way in which deeper irrational motives and tendencies express themselves." It was "the attitude of looking at once for the unconscious motives and determinants in the social habitat of the thinker, instead of first examining the validity of the argument itself."

    The powerful nazi and communist ideologies of his day assumed that one's " blood " or " class " precluded "correct" thinking. Those politically incorrect challengers to their own totalitarian weltanschauung were (to put it mildly) persecuted as conspirators. No doubt, as Ron Unz notes, Popper's personal experience "contributed the depth of his feelings" - I would say skepticism – about conspiracy claims.

    But the author of the " Open Society " had an open mind and I suspect he'd find the thesis reasonable that real conspiracies can both be uncovered and largely ignored because so many simply opt to ignore them. In such cases, evidence and "not taking arguments seriously" often reflects "intellectual groupieism," emotions, professional insecurities as well as venal collective interests.

    • Replies: @Connecticut Famer "But the author of the "Open Society" had an open mind and I suspect he'd find the thesis reasonable that real conspiracies can both be uncovered and largely ignored because so many simply opt to ignore them. In such cases, evidence and "not taking arguments seriously" often reflects "intellectual groupieism," emotions, professional insecurities as well as venal collective interests."

    Possibly as in the JFK case? I actually watched Lee Harvey Oswald get drilled by the man who was later identified as Jack Ruby (real surname "Rubenstein") live on television. The minute it happened and even at age 16 at the time I smelled a rat. Who was ultimately behind it all is something which I can't answer and care not to speculate upon, but to this day I remain suspicious about the circumstances surrounding Oswald's death and Ruby's subsequent dissembling. , @Bill Jones Nice try.

    The Manhattan Project was successfully kept secret despite its scope and the fact that it consumed 17% of the electricity production of the entire US. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  15. Rehmat says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 12:03 pm GMT • 200 Words

    There are more so-called "conspiracy theories" claimed by the US government, CIA, and organized Jewry than the Jews may have been killed by the Nazis. The "conspiracy theorists" like the "terrorists" are chosen by the Zionist-controlled mainstream media.

    Like the September 11, 2001 attacks, the lie that Iran's president Ahmadinejad called, WIPE ISRAEL OFF THE MAP, is still kept alive by the Organized Jewry even though Israel's Deputy Prime Minister Dan Meridor admitted that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad never said Iran wanted to "wipe Israel off the face of the map" in an interview with Al Jazeera in April 2012.

    American investigative writer and author, Robert Parry, claimed on September 19, 2009 that Ahmadinejad never denied Holocaust. He just challenged Israel and the western powers to allow an open debate to find the truth behind the Zionist Holy Cow, "Six Million Died".

    In reality, the only country that has been 'wiped off the map' is the 5,000-year-old Palestine by Europe's unwanted Jews.

    Iran's current president Dr. Hassan Rouhani like Dr. Ahmadinejad, is also blamed for denying the Zionist Holy Holocaust as parroted by Wiesel, which he never did, saying it's up to historians to decide who's lying.

    https://rehmat1.com/2013/09/28/holocaust-the-word-rouhani-never-uttered/

    • Replies: @Moi If the Zionists can lie so much about Israeli history (e.g. The Arabs encouraged Palestinians to flee, that the Arabs were about to attack Israel in 1967, land without a people for a people without a land, etc.), one can only wonder about the official holocaust narrative of 6M dead, gas chambers, etc.).

    I've not read Elie Weisel's book Night, but I understand that no where does he mention gas chambers in Auschwitz.... , @dahoit The only conspiracy with legs is the 70 year old Zionist one,and the only one that matters today.
    And only fellow travelers or their duped concern trolls disagree on that obvious truth.
    Today's lying times says latent racism by the Danes is behind their resistance to their nation being inundated by the refugees of the zionists war of terror.
    Coming from the malevolent racist scum in history,it sure wreaks of total hypocrisy,and another nail in divide and conquer.
    Can one point out one synagogue or rabbinical statement condemning the 70 years of CCs and the imprisonment of Gaza?
    The only Jewish opponents(outside of a few dissidents),the ultra Orthodox are considered self haters,as are the dissidents. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  16. The Alarmist says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 12:20 pm GMT

    I'll believe in the moon landings as soon as the Mars Rover shows all of us what Congress Woman Shiela Jackson Lee was looking for when she asked if it could see the flags we left on the moon.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz Are you presuming that it should be easy to travel over the entire moon surface and easily arrive at a precisely defined point - and that where the flags are is such a point? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  17. anonymous says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 12:24 pm GMT • 300 Words

    One conspiracy theory is that some of the wilder, more incredible notions of what may have taken place are deliberately circulated so as to muddy the waters and discredit those who question the party line. For example, outlandish claims by some that no planes were crashed on 9-11 but were really just holograms are seized upon by supposed debunkers as being representative of all skeptics, overshadowing the more reasonable types who question the narrative. This seems to be quite deliberate.
    The mainstream American press is the freest in the world, we've been told endlessly, and at some point I realized that I was reading these accolades to itself in the very same press. Not the most objective source one comes to realize. Now on the internet it seems there are those who appear to fan out everywhere to influence the discussion, spread their slogans and shout down opposing ideas. Paid trolls and others?

    Conspiracies exist. Consider the Gulf of Tonkin fabrication which certainly involved many actors and yet the general public was kept in the dark about the real facts. The results need not be rehashed yet again. There's a streak of denial in most people. They don't want to contemplate the idea that FDR may have deliberately allowed American servicemen to die at Pearl Harbor in order to get the war he wanted. Stepping back from it all to get a long distance view one can see the patterns of deceit and manipulation all throughout American political life. It's not just incidental but rather is built in.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    Stepping back from it all to get a long distance view one can see the patterns of deceit and manipulation all throughout American political life. It's not just incidental but rather is built in.
    Is this built-in deceit and manipulation unique to American life, or -- beyond the usual understandings about human nature -- is the systematic or institutionalized "deceit and manipulation" present in all cultures? in western cultures? in some but not all cultures? If the lattermost, in which cultures is "deceit and manipulation" less systematic and institutionalized?

    Was "deceit and manipulation" institutionalized into American life from the beginning -- by the Founders, or did USA deviate from its intended path at some point? If so, at what point? How did it happen?

    Is there the possibility of redemption? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  18. Pat Casey says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 12:44 pm GMT • 100 Words @Emblematic I get the sense Ron's building up to something.

    For those who haven't seen it, can I recommend Ryan Dawson's 'War by Deception':

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK6VLFdWJ4I

    I get the sense Ron's building up to something.

    One can only hope. This time he mentioned 9/11- so that base is covered; no need to say more about that than that; besides I doubt even he could add to what has already been published and posted on this site re that Big Lie. I would like to see how he weighs all the evidence on RFK's assassination, what he would be willing to call what looks like nothing as much as what MK-Ultra was about.

    • Replies: @anonymous Pearl Harbor (covered in "Day of Deceit") is good starting point. I strongly encourage Mr. Unz to read Robert Stinnet's book next before moving on.

    FDR never intended that 2,400 Americans would die there. He just thought that if Japan "struck first", he could justify our entry into WWII to the public. What's really fascinating (and almost wholly unknown) is the sequence of events and headlines from December 8 to December 11, 1941, the date Hitler declared war on the USA.

    While Pearl Harbor meant war with Japan, it did not necessarily guarantee war with Nazi Germany. For 72 hours, no one could be sure that Germany would declare war on us. Did FDR manipulate events post-Pearl Harbor to ensure it did happen? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  19. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 12:44 pm GMT • 100 Words @Miro23 The British and Americans have been the victims of conspiracies (False Flag operations) for years.

    For example:

    The Irgun bombing of the King David Hotel (headquarters of the British Mandate Government of Palestine) in which Zionist activists dressed as Arabs placed milk churns filled with explosives against the main columns of the building killing 91 people and injuring 44. Israeli prime Minister Netanyahu, attended a celebration to commemorate the event.

    Operation Susannah (Lavon Affair) where Israeli operatives impersonating Arabs bombed British and American cinemas, libraries and educational centers in Egypt to destabilize the country and keep British troops committed to the Middle East.

    Or June 8, 1967, the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty with unmarked aircraft and torpedo boats. 34 men were killed and 171 wounded, with the attack in international waters following over nine hours of close surveillance. When the ship failed to sink, the Israeli government concocted an elaborate story to cover the crime. Original plan to blame the sinking with all lives lost on the Egyptians and draw the US into the war.

    Or Israelis and U.S. Zionists appearing all over the most recent WTC 9/11 "Operation" with Israelis once again impersonating Arabs in a historic deception/terror action of a type that seems to carry a lot of kudos with old Israeli ex-terrorist Likudniks. Israeli agents were sent to film the historic day (as they later admitted on Israeli TV), with the celebrations including photos of themselves with a background of the burning towers where thousands of Americans were being incinerated.

    Iraq was destroyed as a result of 9/11 but unfortunately for the conspirators, the momentum wasn't sufficient for a general war including Iran. Also the general war would have included the nuclear angle and justified the activation of a neo-con led Emergency Regime (dictatorship) in the US enforced with the newly printed Patriot Act and Homeland Security troops - or maybe that's just another Conspiracy Theory?

    I accept that your explanation of the attack on USS Liberty is relatively plausible but another which runs it close is that Israel had to ensure that there was no proof left of the true order of events which were not in accordance with the Israeli official version. So I ask what are your sources?

    Likewise, if you are saying that suicidal hijackers flew planes into buildings on 9/11 but that it was organised by Mossad or other Israelis your story needs a lot of filling out and evidence to be credible. Or are you merely saying the Israelis knew what was going to
    happen and let it go ahead because it could be turned to their advantage?

    • Replies: @Miro23 [Sorry, long reply]

    The basic fact about the USS Liberty is that an American navy ship was attacked with the aim of sinking it, which is an Act of War since the ship was clearly marked.

    In contrast, the attacking Israeli jets and torpedo boats were unmarked (i.e. they wanted to hide their identity), so a question is why were they unmarked if this was a standard military interception?

    Whether the Israelis wanted to trigger a US attack on Egypt or hide their communications with regard to their attack on Syria is a secondary question. The main concern of the United States surely had to be to rescue their seamen and respond to the aggression.

    And, this is where the story turns really nasty.

    At least two rescue attempts were launched from US aircraft carriers nearby, but after the (obligatory) communication to Washington, both rescue flights were cancelled within minutes on direct orders of Secretary of Defence, Robert McNamara (source: 6th Fleet Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis speaking in confidence to the senior Liberty survivor, Naval Security Group officer, Lieutenant Commander David Lewis in a meeting requested by Geis).

    Surviving personnel all received strict orders not say anything to anyone about the attack.

    Eyewitness accounts say that 4 nuclear armed aircraft were simultaneously launched from the aircraft carrier America on the instructions of President Johnson only to be recalled when, presumably, the information came through that the Israelis had not succeeded in sinking the Liberty. Nuclear weapons were not needed to defend the Liberty.

    Also there was an oral history report from the American Embassy in Cairo, (now in the LBJ Library), which notes that the Embassy received an urgent message from Washington warning that Cairo was about to be bombed by US forces.

    An investigation led by Thomas Moorer, the former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff held the opinion that the Israeli motive was to draw the US into war against Egypt , through a false subterfuge of the same type as their King David Hotel bombing and Lavon Affair operations.

    Any rational person has to conclude that Johnson was virtually following Israeli orders, which raises the question of why? Maybe they were blackmailing him with regard to something else that was more important to him than the destruction of Cairo?

    9/11 had some of the same features as other Israeli False Flag attacks against Britain and the US, such as Israelis dressed as Arabs (framed Arabs) motivated towards tricking these countries into military action against Arab states. In fact the Israeli involvement in 9/11 was much deeper and more generalized as shown in investigative reporter Christopher Bollyn's book, "Solving 9-11: The Deception That Changed the World". https://www.amazon.com/Solving-9-11-Deception-Changed-World/dp/0985322586/ref=cm_cr-mr-title

    15 years later his account is supported in multiple ways from investigations in Florida (they didn't sneak in unseen – they were highly visible and got red carpet treatment with regard to visas etc. and they were completely incapable of flying the 9/11 airliners at the speeds and on the trajectories seen on the day + everyone who had contact with them was visited by the F.B.I. and told to shut up) - Source, a detailed and very interesting investigation by Daniel Hopsicker in "Welcome to Terrorland: Mohamed Atta and the 9/11 Cover-Up in Florida. https://www.amazon.com/Welcome-Terrorland-Mohamed-Cover-up-Florida/dp/0975290673/ref=cm_cr-mr-title

    High-rise buildings don't collapse due to fire (reason given by the US government). All high rise fire disasters have been examined in detail, with most of them much more intense than the WTC ones, and no building collapsed - let alone in 7 seconds and three on the same day.

    These Arabs didn't fly the jets and it's now clear that the buildings were taken down by placed explosives - the aim being to trick the US into an Iraq and Iran war and possibly launch an "Emergency" Neo-con regime (dictatorship) in the US led by Cheney and enforced by the Patriot Act/ Homeland security.

    The other aspect here is that a government (and media) which genuinely represented the American people would give top priority to revealing the truth about the USS Liberty and 9/11 rather than engage in the present obfuscation, blocking, threats, smears and hiding of the truth. , @Alden Re: your first question about the USS Liberty. The media covered it up completely. I was a young adult who read the newspaper every day plus Atlantic. new Republic and sometimes Newsweek.
    And I never, never heard about it until 20 years later when I began reading books about Zionism

    I've read the book written by survivors. They were severely coerced to not say a word about it. I wouldn't be surprised if they were not threatened with death if they talked. They were in the navy remember and subject to the military code of Justice which means no ha rays corpus no access to attorneys until the trial and other nasty things.

    I can't have an opinion about 9/11 because there is no way I can discover the truth. Silverstein's insurance payout is just a version of a standard insurance scam. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  20. SolontoCroesus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 1:24 pm GMT • 100 Words @anonymous One conspiracy theory is that some of the wilder, more incredible notions of what may have taken place are deliberately circulated so as to muddy the waters and discredit those who question the party line. For example, outlandish claims by some that no planes were crashed on 9-11 but were really just holograms are seized upon by supposed debunkers as being representative of all skeptics, overshadowing the more reasonable types who question the narrative. This seems to be quite deliberate.
    The mainstream American press is the freest in the world, we've been told endlessly, and at some point I realized that I was reading these accolades to itself in the very same press. Not the most objective source one comes to realize. Now on the internet it seems there are those who appear to fan out everywhere to influence the discussion, spread their slogans and shout down opposing ideas. Paid trolls and others?
    Conspiracies exist. Consider the Gulf of Tonkin fabrication which certainly involved many actors and yet the general public was kept in the dark about the real facts. The results need not be rehashed yet again. There's a streak of denial in most people. They don't want to contemplate the idea that FDR may have deliberately allowed American servicemen to die at Pearl Harbor in order to get the war he wanted. Stepping back from it all to get a long distance view one can see the patterns of deceit and manipulation all throughout American political life. It's not just incidental but rather is built in.

    Stepping back from it all to get a long distance view one can see the patterns of deceit and manipulation all throughout American political life. It's not just incidental but rather is built in.

    Is this built-in deceit and manipulation unique to American life, or - beyond the usual understandings about human nature - is the systematic or institutionalized "deceit and manipulation" present in all cultures? in western cultures? in some but not all cultures? If the lattermost, in which cultures is "deceit and manipulation" less systematic and institutionalized?

    Was "deceit and manipulation" institutionalized into American life from the beginning - by the Founders, or did USA deviate from its intended path at some point? If so, at what point? How did it happen?

    Is there the possibility of redemption?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz It would be worth considering the different contributions to truth telling and also honest scepticism of the Puritan and other Protestant culture, and of the Enlightenment for a start. Some subjects were difficult - like whether there is a God for all Christians and of course the one that must have addled many brains: slavery. , @John Jeremiah Smith
    Is there the possibility of redemption?
    Of what is "redemption" constituted? Considering that fewer than 20% of American residents during the Revolution were actually involved in the revolt, with an estimated 40% preferring to retain the colony under monarchy, and considering that the ethical and political awareness of the Average American and the Average Illegal Resident Alien have gone downhill from there, can it honestly be said that there's enough true flavor of human rights and equal access/opportunity to redeem? , @Mulegino1 To my mind, the real point of deviation in the history of the United States is the Spanish American War, and the transformation of America from a tellurocratic to a thallasocratic power. America's traditional role had been that of a vast, continental, land based power, eschewing intervention in the affairs of Europe and the rest of the world outside the Western Hemisphere. (This is largely the reason that the Russian Czar allied with the Union in the American Civil War).

    Unfortunately, America's traditional tellurocratic role was abandonded - thanks to the likes of Admiral ("Victory through Sea Power") Mahan, John Hay, and the loopy Teddy Roosevelt, inter alia - and the nation went on to embrace the role of international arbiter and busybody, and became insatiable in the pursuit of empire, with catastrophic results for the world. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
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  21. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 1:32 pm GMT @polistra Simplifying one "contradiction":

    Our elites have never been primarily anti-Russian or pro-Russian. Since 1946 our elites have been purely GLOBALIST, and their secondary feelings toward Russia strictly follow from this primary goal.

    At first Russia was an obstacle to globalism, blocking much of the UN's efforts. Our elites were anti-Russian. After 1962 or so, Russia became the main driver of the UN, so our elites were pro-Russian. Since 1989, Russia has been the guiding star for ANTI-globalist forces, so our elites are FEROCIOUSLY anti-Russian.

    I have a problem with the idea of likeminded elites who all move in srep together.

    • Replies: @Bill Jones They don't move in lockstep-(I assume you meant) together.
    They do however have a series of identical interests:

    Lower taxes on Capital Gains and Dividends than on Earned Income.

    No barriers to entry to low-wage unskilled workers for jobs that need to be performed in the US.

    No barriers to goods produced from low-wage countries, no matter what the conditions they are produced in.

    Control of the Federal Reserve.

    Tax-payer bailouts of failing institutions.

    etc, etc.

    If you want to get into it, I'm happy to. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  22. biz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 1:48 pm GMT • 200 Words

    Actually, there is no symmetry in conspiracy theories as you imply.

    The definition of a conspiracy theory is an explanation of events that traces them to a secret network, and when presented with contradictory evidence, simply enlarges the network of supposed conspirators rather than modifying the explanation.

    So, just to cite one example, all of the 9/11 controlled demolition stuff is a conspiracy theory because at first it had the government and maybe the property owners in on the secret, but then the circle of supposed conspirators was enlarged to include the editors of Popular Mechanics after they did their study. Or take the moon landing, which involved 'only' thousands of NASA people until you point out that the astronauts left mirrors on the surface of the moon in a precise location, for which astronomers around the world use laser ranging to determine the distance to the moon down to the centimeter level. So then the astronomers who claim to do this had to be added to the list of conspirators and liars for this theory to stand. Then of course the more you point out, the more people who have to get added to the conspiracy, which eventually becomes all of the television industry, and even the Soviets!

    That is the reason why the so-called alternative explanations for 9/11, the moon landing, the various assassinations, the safety of vaccines, etc, are conspiracy theories, while the mainstream explanations are not.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
    The definition of a conspiracy theory is an explanation of events that traces them to a secret network, and when presented with contradictory evidence, simply enlarges the network of supposed conspirators rather than modifying the explanation.
    LOL x 2. I think you're saying that the above is YOUR definition of "conspiracy theory", not to be confused with any real and accurate definition of "conspiracy theory". , @zib but then the circle of supposed conspirators was enlarged to include the editors of Popular Mechanics after they did their study

    Nice attempt to conflate the planners and executors of the 9/11 attacks with those who run interference for the "official" history of what happened that day. PM editors aren't "conspirators" of the deed, they're just a mouthpiece for NIST.

    Here's a link to Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth's evisceration of Popular Mechanics hit piece against skeptics of the NIST whitewash:

    http://www1.ae911truth.org/en/news-section/41-articles/604-debunking-the-real-911-myths-why-popular-mechanics-cant-face-up-to-reality-part-1.html

    Let's see how you rationalize this one. If you have the cajones, that is. , @Boris

    The definition of a conspiracy theory is an explanation of events that traces them to a secret network, and when presented with contradictory evidence, simply enlarges the network of supposed conspirators rather than modifying the explanation.
    This is a fairly useful definition, and certainly highlights some of the pathological reasoning that is associated with conspiracy theories. However, not all conspiracy theories will exhibit this characteristic. Conspiracies like 9/11 that rely on scientific facts are sometimes rationalized this way, but other conspiracies are built on suspect witness testimony or a biased interpretation and don't require an ever-widening conspiracy. , Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  23. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 2:03 pm GMT • 100 Words @SolontoCroesus
    Stepping back from it all to get a long distance view one can see the patterns of deceit and manipulation all throughout American political life. It's not just incidental but rather is built in.
    Is this built-in deceit and manipulation unique to American life, or -- beyond the usual understandings about human nature -- is the systematic or institutionalized "deceit and manipulation" present in all cultures? in western cultures? in some but not all cultures? If the lattermost, in which cultures is "deceit and manipulation" less systematic and institutionalized?

    Was "deceit and manipulation" institutionalized into American life from the beginning -- by the Founders, or did USA deviate from its intended path at some point? If so, at what point? How did it happen?

    Is there the possibility of redemption?

    It would be worth considering the different contributions to truth telling and also honest scepticism of the Puritan and other Protestant culture, and of the Enlightenment for a start. Some subjects were difficult – like whether there is a God for all Christians and of course the one that must have addled many brains: slavery.

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  25. Decius says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 2:22 pm GMT • 600 Words

    Your characterization of Strauss on conspiracy has almost no basis in anything Strauss actually wrote. I would bet that you are presenting a dumbed -down and inaccurate version of Shadia Drury's books on Strauss, which are themselves abysmally inaccurate and libelous about Strauss.

    The only place Strauss discusses conspiracy thematically that I can recall–and I have read all his books several times, and still read them; have/do you?–is on Thoughts on Machiavelli . Strauss does so, first and foremost, because conspiracy is a major theme of Machiavelli's and the subject of the two longest chapters of his two most important books ( Prince 19 and Discourses III 6). Strauss further develops the idea that modern philosophy begins as a conspiracy between Machiavelli and (some of) his readers. Strauss simply never said anything like this:

    Meanwhile, Strauss, a founding figure in modern neo-conservative thought, was equally harsh in his attacks upon conspiracy analysis, but for polar-opposite reasons. In his mind, elite conspiracies were absolutely necessary and beneficial, a crucial social defense against anarchy or totalitarianism, but their effectiveness obviously depended upon keeping them hidden from the prying eyes of the ignorant masses. His main problem with "conspiracy theories" was not that they were always false, but they might often be true, and therefore their spread was potentially disruptive to the smooth functioning of society. So as a matter of self-defense, elites needed to actively suppress or otherwise undercut the unauthorized investigation of suspected conspiracies.

    As for his relationship with neoconservatism, you also overstate that considerably. Yes, there are many neoconservative Straussians. But there are also Straussian paleos, tradcons, liberatarians, liberals, and moderates. There are many who are apolitical and interested only in abstract philosophy. There are Straussian religious conservatives, agnostics and atheists. Christians, Jews and Muslim. Catholic, Protestants and Mormons. The neocons just get all the attention–owing again, in part to Drury and in part to one terrible 2003 article by James Atlas, which no one these days has read, but quickly became THE account of neocon Straussians controlling the Bush administration, which everyone today believes without having read, or even being aware of (have/are you?).

    If "neocon" has any meaning, it means, first, a former intellectual liberal who has drifted right. Second, a domestic policy scholar who focuses on data-driven social science. And third, a foreign policy hawk.

    None of these really apply to Strauss, who spent his who career studying political philosophy, with an intense focus on the Greeks. He voted Dem in every election in which he could vote, until his last, 1972, when he voted for Nixon out of Cold War concerns. You might say that makes him a "hawk" but he never wrote any essays saying so. He simply told a few people privately that McGovern was too naïve about the Soviets. You might also say that is evidence that he "drifted right" but he didn't think so. He apparently considered himself a Cold War liberal until his death. As for data-driven social science, he famously attacked it in of the very few of his writings that ever got any attention in mainstream political science ("An Epilogue").

    You may well be right about the CIA's role in popularizing the phrase "conspiracy theory." But Leo Strauss had nothing to do with it. Or, if he did, he hid his role exceptionally well, because there is no evidence of such in his writings.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus C Bradley Thompson was educated/trained as a Straussian neoconservative, then got mugged by reality and started to re-assess his own philosophical orientation.

    One of the most interesting points Thompson makes in this discussion of his book, Neoconservatism: An Obituary for an Idea, occurs in the Q&A segment when he demonstrates that Strauss was, indeed, an acolyte of Nazi philosopher Carl Schmitt

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Oh6DmjQaho , @Ron Unz

    Your characterization of Strauss on conspiracy has almost no basis in anything Strauss actually wrote. I would bet that you are presenting a dumbed -down and inaccurate version of Shadia Drury's books on Strauss, which are themselves abysmally inaccurate and libelous about Strauss. The only place Strauss discusses conspiracy thematically that I can recall–and I have read all his books several times, and still read them; have/do you?....The neocons just get all the attention–owing again, in part to Drury and in part to one terrible 2003 article by James Atlas, which no one these days has read, but quickly became THE account of neocon Straussians controlling the Bush administration...He apparently considered himself a Cold War liberal until his death.
    I'll candidly admit I haven't read a single one of Strauss's own books, nor even that very influential James Atlas article you dislike so intensely. Instead, I was merely summarizing the extensive arguments of Prof. deHaven-Smith, who, as a prominent political scientist, is presumably quite familiar with Strauss, though I don't doubt that his views might differ considerably from your own.

    But on your second point, I do remember seeing a very amusing private letter of Strauss that came to light about a decade or so ago. Written shortly after his arrival in America, it was addressed to a fellow ultra-rightwing Jewish exile from Europe, and in it he praised fascism and (I think) Nazism to the skies, arguing that their regrettable deviation into "anti-Semitism" (which had precipitated his own personal exile from Germany) should in no way be considered a refutation of all the other wonderful aspects of those political doctrines. This leads me to wonder if Strauss was truly the "liberal" you suggest, or perhaps was instead engaging in exactly the sort of "ideological crypsis" that seems such an important part of his political philosophy...

    It's likely my faulty memory may have garbled important aspects of the letter I mention, and given your expertise on Straussian issues, I'm sure you should be able to locate it and easily correct me. , @Pat Casey Actually I don't think Ron is so far off. And I think, at best, you must be overeducated. Strauss held that authentic philosophy is a conspiracy . From there, certain practical advice about how to carry out the philosophy of the true philosopher follows. Such advice would about seem to be how Ron said it was.

    I have not read the essay by Atlas. But for the duration of the Bush Administration I did read the Weekly Standard. I recall in particular one time when the editors recommended what books to bring to the beach, and Bill Kristol said "anything by Leo Strauss." My impression is that the Weekly Standard's brazen propaganda back then was the way certain editors understood themselves to be acting like Strauss's true disciples.

    And of course now Krystol is hocking a former spook to run against Trump in Utah. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  26. Connecticut Famer says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 2:28 pm GMT • 100 Words @Gene Tuttle I've often used the argument myself that conspiracies inevitably have short shelf lives in the US because it was so difficult for Americans to keep secrets. The article makes a useful point in suggesting that secret plots, even after being revealed, may nevertheless remain widely ignored. Ideology, group-think, pack journalism etc. are powerful forces, often subconsciously at work, preventing alternative theories from developing legs.

    Though long an admirer of Karl Popper, I hadn't strongly associated him with attacks on conspiracy theories per se. As an American "outsider" living abroad most of my adult life, I've all too often encountered those who assumed my background alone explained an argument of mine that they didn't like. Popper had hit the nail on the head when he wrote about

    "a widespread and dangerous fashion of our time...of not taking arguments seriously, and at their face value, at least tentatively, but of seeing in them nothing but a way in which deeper irrational motives and tendencies express themselves." It was "the attitude of looking at once for the unconscious motives and determinants in the social habitat of the thinker, instead of first examining the validity of the argument itself."
    The powerful nazi and communist ideologies of his day assumed that one's " blood " or " class " precluded "correct" thinking. Those politically incorrect challengers to their own totalitarian weltanschauung were (to put it mildly) persecuted as conspirators. No doubt, as Ron Unz notes, Popper's personal experience "contributed the depth of his feelings" -- I would say skepticism – about conspiracy claims.

    But the author of the " Open Society " had an open mind and I suspect he'd find the thesis reasonable that real conspiracies can both be uncovered and largely ignored because so many simply opt to ignore them. In such cases, evidence and "not taking arguments seriously" often reflects "intellectual groupieism," emotions, professional insecurities as well as venal collective interests.

    "But the author of the "Open Society" had an open mind and I suspect he'd find the thesis reasonable that real conspiracies can both be uncovered and largely ignored because so many simply opt to ignore them. In such cases, evidence and "not taking arguments seriously" often reflects "intellectual groupieism," emotions, professional insecurities as well as venal collective interests."

    Possibly as in the JFK case? I actually watched Lee Harvey Oswald get drilled by the man who was later identified as Jack Ruby (real surname "Rubenstein") live on television. The minute it happened and even at age 16 at the time I smelled a rat. Who was ultimately behind it all is something which I can't answer and care not to speculate upon, but to this day I remain suspicious about the circumstances surrounding Oswald's death and Ruby's subsequent dissembling.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz I don't dismiss your intuitions as such but you hardly present a great case for affording them much weight. What you immediately felt at age 16 watching a screen? Nope. The fact that Jack Ruby dissembled? , @dahoit I was 12 and had the same feeling. Lanskys mob member shoots down any investigation into just what happened that day. And remember Arlen Spector came up with the magic bullet theory,and was rewarded with Congress. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  27. anonymous says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 2:39 pm GMT • 100 Words @Pat Casey
    I get the sense Ron's building up to something.
    One can only hope. This time he mentioned 9/11--- so that base is covered; no need to say more about that than that; besides I doubt even he could add to what has already been published and posted on this site re that Big Lie. I would like to see how he weighs all the evidence on RFK's assassination, what he would be willing to call what looks like nothing as much as what MK-Ultra was about.

    Pearl Harbor (covered in "Day of Deceit") is good starting point. I strongly encourage Mr. Unz to read Robert Stinnet's book next before moving on.

    FDR never intended that 2,400 Americans would die there. He just thought that if Japan "struck first", he could justify our entry into WWII to the public. What's really fascinating (and almost wholly unknown) is the sequence of events and headlines from December 8 to December 11, 1941, the date Hitler declared war on the USA.

    While Pearl Harbor meant war with Japan, it did not necessarily guarantee war with Nazi Germany. For 72 hours, no one could be sure that Germany would declare war on us. Did FDR manipulate events post-Pearl Harbor to ensure it did happen?

    • Replies: @Hibernian "FDR never intended that 2,400 Americans would die there."

    Did he think our forces at Pearl, lacking needed intelligence, would limit the losses to a lesser number? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  28. John Jeremiah Smith says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 2:44 pm GMT • 100 Words @biz Actually, there is no symmetry in conspiracy theories as you imply.

    The definition of a conspiracy theory is an explanation of events that traces them to a secret network, and when presented with contradictory evidence, simply enlarges the network of supposed conspirators rather than modifying the explanation.

    So, just to cite one example, all of the 9/11 controlled demolition stuff is a conspiracy theory because at first it had the government and maybe the property owners in on the secret, but then the circle of supposed conspirators was enlarged to include the editors of Popular Mechanics after they did their study. Or take the moon landing, which involved 'only' thousands of NASA people until you point out that the astronauts left mirrors on the surface of the moon in a precise location, for which astronomers around the world use laser ranging to determine the distance to the moon down to the centimeter level. So then the astronomers who claim to do this had to be added to the list of conspirators and liars for this theory to stand. Then of course the more you point out, the more people who have to get added to the conspiracy, which eventually becomes all of the television industry, and even the Soviets!

    That is the reason why the so-called alternative explanations for 9/11, the moon landing, the various assassinations, the safety of vaccines, etc, are conspiracy theories, while the mainstream explanations are not.

    The definition of a conspiracy theory is an explanation of events that traces them to a secret network, and when presented with contradictory evidence, simply enlarges the network of supposed conspirators rather than modifying the explanation.

    LOL x 2. I think you're saying that the above is YOUR definition of "conspiracy theory", not to be confused with any real and accurate definition of "conspiracy theory".

    • Replies: @biz No what I have put is the generally accepted definition used in journalistic and sociological works about conspiracy theory culture, e.g. this book . Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  29. Jacques Sheete says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 2:46 pm GMT • 100 Words

    Superb article.

    It's good to see that Mr. Beard is getting some well deserved good press. It's also good to have people put on alert about Leo Strauss; his name should be a household word, and that of derision.

    I first learned of the fool at LewRockwell.com, and I feel it's worth investigating him as a source of the goofy neocon outlook that the world's been suffering under for decades.

    "Strauss, who opposed the idea of individual rights, maintained that neither the ancient world nor the Christian envisioned strict, absolute limits on state power.

    Straussian neoconservatism is not conservatism as it has ever been understood in America or anywhere else "

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2004/09/thomas-woods/the-neocon-godfather/

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  30. Paul Jolliffe says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 2:53 pm GMT • 100 Words

    Mr. Unz,

    Here is a link to Carl Bernstein's definitive 1977 Rolling Stone article "CIA and the Media" in which he addresses – and confirms – your worst fears. You are very right, and no less a figure than Bernstein has said so for nearly four decades . . .

    http://www.carlbernstein.com/magazine_cia_and_media.php

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    Here is a link to Carl Bernstein's definitive 1977 Rolling Stone article "CIA and the Media" in which he addresses – and confirms – your worst fears. You are very right, and no less a figure than Bernstein has said so for nearly four decades...
    Thanks so much for the excellent reference to the Bernstein article, of which I hadn't been aware. I found it fascinating, not least because of all the speculations floating around over the last decade or two that Bernstein's famed collaborator, Bob Woodward, had had an intelligence background, and perhaps Watergate represented a plot by elements of the CIA to remove Nixon from the White House. As for the 25,000 word article itself, I'd suggest that people read it. Since quite a lot of this comment-thread is already filled with debates about the supposed liberalism of Leo Strauss and an alleged Moon Landing Hoax, I might as well provide a few of the provocative extracts:

    http://www.carlbernstein.com/magazine_cia_and_media.php

    He was very eager, he loved to cooperate." On one occasion, according to several CIA officials, Sulzberger was given a briefing paper by the Agency which ran almost verbatim under the columnist's byline in the Times. "Cycame out and said, 'I'm thinking of doing a piece, can you give me some background?'" a CIA officer said. "We gave it to Cy as a background piece and Cy gave it to the printers and put his name on it." Sulzberger denies that any incident occurred. "A lot of baloney," he said.
    Stewart Alsop's relationship with the Agency was much more extensive than Sulzberger's. One official who served at the highest levels in the CIA said flatly: "Stew Alsop was a CIA agent." An equally senior official refused to define Alsop's relationship with the Agency except to say it was a formal one. Other sources said that Alsop was particularly helpful to the Agency in discussions with, officials of foreign governments-asking questions to which the CIA was seeking answers, planting misinformation advantageous to American policy, assessing opportunities for CIA recruitment of well‑placed foreigners.
    The New York Times. The Agency's relationship with the Times was by far its most valuable among newspapers, according to CIA officials. From 1950 to 1966, about ten CIA employees were provided Times cover under arrangements approved by the newspaper's late publisher, Arthur Hays Sulzberger. The cover arrangements were part of a general Times policy-set by Sulzberger-to provide assistance to the CIA whenever possible.
    When Newsweek waspurchased by the Washington Post Company, publisher Philip L. Graham was informed by Agency officials that the CIA occasionally used the magazine for cover purposes, according to CIA sources. "It was widely known that Phil Graham was somebody you could get help from," said a former deputy director of the Agency. "Frank Wisner dealt with him." Wisner, deputy director of the CIA from 1950 until shortly before his suicide in 1965, was the Agency's premier orchestrator of "black" operations, including many in which journalists were involved. Wisner liked to boast of his "mighty Wurlitzer," a wondrous propaganda instrument he built, and played, with help from the press.) Phil Graham was probably Wisner's closest friend. But Graharn, who committed suicide in 1963, apparently knew little of the specifics of any cover arrangements with Newsweek, CIA sources said.
    The Agency played an intriguing numbers game with the committee. Those who prepared the material say it was physically impossible to produce all of the Agency's files on the use of journalists. "We gave them a broad, representative picture," said one agency official. "We never pretended it was a total description of the range of activities over 25 years, or of the number of journalists who have done things for us." A relatively small number of the summaries described the activities of foreign journalists-including those working as stringers for American publications. Those officials most knowledgeable about the subject say that a figure of 400 American journalists is on the low side of the actual number who maintained covert relationships and undertook clandestine tasks.
    From the twenty‑five files he got back, according to Senate sources and CIA officials, an unavoidable conclusion emerged: that to a degree never widely suspected, the CIA in the 1950s, '60s and even early '70s had concentrated its relationships with journalists in the most prominent sectors of the American press corps, including four or five of the largest newspapers in the country, the broadcast networks and the two major newsweekly magazines. Despite the omission of names and affiliations from the twenty‑five detailed files each was between three and eleven inches thick), the information was usually sufficient to tentatively identify either the newsman, his affiliation or both-particularly because so many of them were prominent in the profession.
    , @LondonBob No coincidence that all the CIA agents involved in the JFK assassination are known to be experts in 'black ops' and news media specialists. Jim Angleton, Cord Meyer, David Atlee Phillips and E. Howard Hunt, who confessed his involvement, all made their names in black propaganda or news management. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  31. Clearpoint says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 2:53 pm GMT • 100 Words

    Popper and Strauss. Neoliberal thought unites with neoconservative thought. Explicitly different rationales, but the same goals and the same method of achieving those goals. Sounds like target marketing of the two biggest target markets of American exceptionalism – dumb and dumber. Apparently critical thinkers are a minority that they believe can be easily marginalized.

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  32. John Jeremiah Smith says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 2:58 pm GMT • 200 Words @JL Perhaps the media tried too hard, were too eager to be complicit, and now they've completely lost the plot. The rise of Trump, in the face of a completely and uniformly hostile media, suggests that a large part of the American public, consciously or not, now completely rejects entire media narratives and assumes the exact opposite to be true. And they're panicking. Not knowing what to do, they double and triple down on the same fail that got them into this mess. Truly interesting times.

    Thanks, Mr. Unz, for your "small webzine".

    The rise of Trump, in the face of a completely and uniformly hostile media, suggests that a large part of the American public, consciously or not, now completely rejects entire media narratives and assumes the exact opposite to be true. And they're panicking.

    Are they? Or, have they simply fired the first few rounds of easily-dispatched, easily-targeted artillery? I do note that this is the most massive full-court press in support of the oligarchy that I have ever seen. But, I sense that political wars have moved from the court of public opinion and perception, into the courtyards of the moneyed elite. Inasmuch as no rich person has ever believed that he or she has enough money and power, the national political conflict is now composed solely of issues that affect the wealth and power of the 0.1%, which is itself segmented into areas of economic focus and varying forms of wealth acquisition. For example, if air transport systems threaten the wealth and power of ocean-based shipping, that competition between oligarchs will morph into politically-expressed contexts.

    There is absolutely no concern, anywhere within the dominion of the 0.1%, with human values, human rights, or any of that sort of ethically-principled hoo-hoo.

    • Agree: Jacques Sheete • Replies: @JL I suppose my comment came off somewhat like unbridled, naive optimism. Your points are unquestionably valid, however, and I am disinclined to argue. Of course Trump represents the interests of certain groups of elites and is not merely the essence of a popular movement. I'll be honest, though, I'm having a tough time determining who these groups are, exactly.

    Just like with Brexit, these events don't happen without powerful manipulation from somewhere within the 0.1%. Still, it's tough for me to imagine what a Trump presidency will even look like. Who will be in his cabinet, from what backgrounds will they come?

    There is absolutely no concern, anywhere within the dominion of the 0.1%, with human values, human rights, or any of that sort of ethically-principled hoo-hoo.
    Certainly not. What are fundamentally important questions for us are merely means to an end for them. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  33. John Jeremiah Smith says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 3:05 pm GMT • 100 Words @SolontoCroesus
    Stepping back from it all to get a long distance view one can see the patterns of deceit and manipulation all throughout American political life. It's not just incidental but rather is built in.
    Is this built-in deceit and manipulation unique to American life, or -- beyond the usual understandings about human nature -- is the systematic or institutionalized "deceit and manipulation" present in all cultures? in western cultures? in some but not all cultures? If the lattermost, in which cultures is "deceit and manipulation" less systematic and institutionalized?

    Was "deceit and manipulation" institutionalized into American life from the beginning -- by the Founders, or did USA deviate from its intended path at some point? If so, at what point? How did it happen?

    Is there the possibility of redemption?

    Is there the possibility of redemption?

    Of what is "redemption" constituted? Considering that fewer than 20% of American residents during the Revolution were actually involved in the revolt, with an estimated 40% preferring to retain the colony under monarchy, and considering that the ethical and political awareness of the Average American and the Average Illegal Resident Alien have gone downhill from there, can it honestly be said that there's enough true flavor of human rights and equal access/opportunity to redeem?

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  34. biz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 3:10 pm GMT @John Jeremiah Smith
    The definition of a conspiracy theory is an explanation of events that traces them to a secret network, and when presented with contradictory evidence, simply enlarges the network of supposed conspirators rather than modifying the explanation.
    LOL x 2. I think you're saying that the above is YOUR definition of "conspiracy theory", not to be confused with any real and accurate definition of "conspiracy theory".

    No what I have put is the generally accepted definition used in journalistic and sociological works about conspiracy theory culture, e.g. this book .

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
    No what I have put is the generally accepted definition used in journalistic and sociological works about conspiracy theory culture, e.g. this book.
    Journalism? Sociological works? You choose to quote even bigger liars as defining "conspiracy theory"?


    "A conspiracy theory is a belief that a secret conspiracy has actually been decisive in producing a political event or evil outcome which the theorists strongly disapprove of. The conspiracy theory typically identifies the conspirators, provides evidence that supposedly links them together with an evil plan to harm the body politic, and may also point to a supposed cover up by authorities or media who should have stopped the conspiracy. The duty of the theorist is to pick from a myriad of facts and assumptions and reassemble them to form a picture of the conspiracy, as in a jigsaw puzzle. A theorist may publicly identify specific conspirators, and if they deny the allegations that is evidence they have been sworn to secrecy and are probably guilty."

    Similar, agreed, but with noteworthy differences. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  35. CanSpeccy says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 3:22 pm GMT • 200 Words

    Good epistemological analysis.

    The great flaw in the Western system of "democratic" government is that hardly anyone knows the meaning of the word "epistemology", let alone have any grasp of the underlying challenge of knowing what they know, or rather knowing how little they know beyond what they know from direct personal experience. This is a challenge made vastly more difficult in the modern age when almost everything we know is derived not from personal experience, or from other people of whose character and intellectual competence we have some personal knowledge, but from the arrangement of ink on paper or of pixels on a video screen. To this problem, there is probably no solution, although either a sharp restriction of the franchise to those of some maturity and education, or a division of the franchise according to what each particular individual could be expected to know something about, would be a step in the right direction.

    As it is, we will, inevitably, continue to be the target of high powered manipulation by corporate owned media and other powerful interests.

    Professor Lance Haven de Smith, whose book you mention is an expert on SCADS, or state crimes against democracy. An article by him on this topic is available here . There is some interesting academic material about SCADs here .

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  36. nsa says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 3:25 pm GMT • 100 Words

    In spook circles, leaving clues is referred to as inoculation .refer to the work of Bill McGuire in the late 50s and early 60s. For example, we here in Langley and Ft. Meade have left intact on the internet the early picture of the 20′ entry hole left by the "757″ in the facade of the pentagon before the explosion and complete collapse of the exterior wall ..inviting the conspiratorial question " where are the wings, the mangled cadavers, the tail?". This is all just too easy

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  37. Alden says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 3:27 pm GMT • 100 Words

    Highly reccomend Chris Buckley's book
    "Little Green Men" The plot is that the entire UFO thing was set up after WW3 by the DOJ to keep the money flowing. Like all Buckley's books, it's a great read.

    I stopped believing in anything written in newspapers around 1966 because they were so pro black criminal and anti police

    Have fun on Labor Day

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  38. John Jeremiah Smith says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 3:45 pm GMT • 200 Words @biz No what I have put is the generally accepted definition used in journalistic and sociological works about conspiracy theory culture, e.g. this book .

    No what I have put is the generally accepted definition used in journalistic and sociological works about conspiracy theory culture, e.g. this book.

    Journalism? Sociological works? You choose to quote even bigger liars as defining "conspiracy theory"?

    "A conspiracy theory is a belief that a secret conspiracy has actually been decisive in producing a political event or evil outcome which the theorists strongly disapprove of. The conspiracy theory typically identifies the conspirators, provides evidence that supposedly links them together with an evil plan to harm the body politic, and may also point to a supposed cover up by authorities or media who should have stopped the conspiracy. The duty of the theorist is to pick from a myriad of facts and assumptions and reassemble them to form a picture of the conspiracy, as in a jigsaw puzzle. A theorist may publicly identify specific conspirators, and if they deny the allegations that is evidence they have been sworn to secrecy and are probably guilty."

    Similar, agreed, but with noteworthy differences.

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  39. landlubber says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 4:10 pm GMT

    journalistic and sociological works

    Pravda.

    And like your Pravda brethren, you are too quick to conflate 9/11 and the moon landings.

    • Replies: @biz
    you are too quick to conflate 9/11 and the moon landings
    Actually, it was Unz himself who stated a while back that if we admit that one of them is possible, then all are possible, or something more or less to that effect.

    In an case, the 9/11 controlled demolition / missile / flight 93 is in a hangar in Cleveland stuff is just as implausible as faking the moon landings. Too many people and organizations and countries needing to be in on it, etc. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  40. SolontoCroesus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 4:12 pm GMT • 100 Words @Decius Your characterization of Strauss on conspiracy has almost no basis in anything Strauss actually wrote. I would bet that you are presenting a dumbed -down and inaccurate version of Shadia Drury's books on Strauss, which are themselves abysmally inaccurate and libelous about Strauss.

    The only place Strauss discusses conspiracy thematically that I can recall--and I have read all his books several times, and still read them; have/do you?--is on Thoughts on Machiavelli . Strauss does so, first and foremost, because conspiracy is a major theme of Machiavelli's and the subject of the two longest chapters of his two most important books ( Prince 19 and Discourses III 6). Strauss further develops the idea that modern philosophy begins as a conspiracy between Machiavelli and (some of) his readers. Strauss simply never said anything like this:

    Meanwhile, Strauss, a founding figure in modern neo-conservative thought, was equally harsh in his attacks upon conspiracy analysis, but for polar-opposite reasons. In his mind, elite conspiracies were absolutely necessary and beneficial, a crucial social defense against anarchy or totalitarianism, but their effectiveness obviously depended upon keeping them hidden from the prying eyes of the ignorant masses. His main problem with "conspiracy theories" was not that they were always false, but they might often be true, and therefore their spread was potentially disruptive to the smooth functioning of society. So as a matter of self-defense, elites needed to actively suppress or otherwise undercut the unauthorized investigation of suspected conspiracies.
    As for his relationship with neoconservatism, you also overstate that considerably. Yes, there are many neoconservative Straussians. But there are also Straussian paleos, tradcons, liberatarians, liberals, and moderates. There are many who are apolitical and interested only in abstract philosophy. There are Straussian religious conservatives, agnostics and atheists. Christians, Jews and Muslim. Catholic, Protestants and Mormons. The neocons just get all the attention--owing again, in part to Drury and in part to one terrible 2003 article by James Atlas, which no one these days has read, but quickly became THE account of neocon Straussians controlling the Bush administration, which everyone today believes without having read, or even being aware of (have/are you?).

    If "neocon" has any meaning, it means, first, a former intellectual liberal who has drifted right. Second, a domestic policy scholar who focuses on data-driven social science. And third, a foreign policy hawk.

    None of these really apply to Strauss, who spent his who career studying political philosophy, with an intense focus on the Greeks. He voted Dem in every election in which he could vote, until his last, 1972, when he voted for Nixon out of Cold War concerns. You might say that makes him a "hawk" but he never wrote any essays saying so. He simply told a few people privately that McGovern was too naïve about the Soviets. You might also say that is evidence that he "drifted right" but he didn't think so. He apparently considered himself a Cold War liberal until his death. As for data-driven social science, he famously attacked it in of the very few of his writings that ever got any attention in mainstream political science ("An Epilogue").

    You may well be right about the CIA's role in popularizing the phrase "conspiracy theory." But Leo Strauss had nothing to do with it. Or, if he did, he hid his role exceptionally well, because there is no evidence of such in his writings.

    C Bradley Thompson was educated/trained as a Straussian neoconservative, then got mugged by reality and started to re-assess his own philosophical orientation.

    One of the most interesting points Thompson makes in this discussion of his book, Neoconservatism: An Obituary for an Idea, occurs in the Q&A segment when he demonstrates that Strauss was, indeed, an acolyte of Nazi philosopher Carl Schmitt

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus @ 12 min, Thompson asserts that "Leo Strauss was the most important influence on Irving Kristol's intellectual development. My book reveals for the first time the importance of Kristol's 1952 review of Strauss's Persecution and the Art of Writing . For me this is the Rosetta Stone . . .for understanding the deepest layer of neoconservative political philosophy."


    ---
    It should also be noted that Irving Kristol was sponsored by- on the payroll of - the CIA while still in Britain. Kristol has acknowledged that CIA support got his movement off the ground. , @Decius No. Strauss and Schmitt were friendly in the 1930s but Strauss was critical of Schmitt's work even then and said so. Schmitt himself said that Strauss had "seen right through" his arguments. Strauss was no acolyte of Schmitt's, he was a greater and deeper thinker and Schmitt--something Schmitt himself acknowledged. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

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  42. Laurel says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 4:22 pm GMT

    The best strategy is to foster implausible conspiracy theories to create a cloud of disinformation. This technique was used very effectively after 9/11, such that it's very hard to discuss a coverup without being labeled a truther.

    • Replies: @Old fogey Thank you for inserting the word "truther" into the conversation. It has always fascinated me that someone searching for the truth about a political issue is now automatically considered a conspiracy theorist. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  43. SolontoCroesus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 4:24 pm GMT • 100 Words @SolontoCroesus C Bradley Thompson was educated/trained as a Straussian neoconservative, then got mugged by reality and started to re-assess his own philosophical orientation.

    One of the most interesting points Thompson makes in this discussion of his book, Neoconservatism: An Obituary for an Idea, occurs in the Q&A segment when he demonstrates that Strauss was, indeed, an acolyte of Nazi philosopher Carl Schmitt

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Oh6DmjQaho

    @ 12 min, Thompson asserts that "Leo Strauss was the most important influence on Irving Kristol's intellectual development. My book reveals for the first time the importance of Kristol's 1952 review of Strauss's Persecution and the Art of Writing . For me this is the Rosetta Stone . . .for understanding the deepest layer of neoconservative political philosophy."

    -
    It should also be noted that Irving Kristol was sponsored by- on the payroll of – the CIA while still in Britain. Kristol has acknowledged that CIA support got his movement off the ground.

    • Replies: @Decius So what? That's one guy. How do we even know Kristol interpreted Strauss correctly? Kristol's concerns--data-driven social science--were not Strauss's. And so on and on.

    But all that is a re-frame anyway. The charge from Unz is that Strauss is responsible, partly, for the way Americans think about conspiracy today because Strauss advocated for elite conspiracy. That's false and Unz can't back it up. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  44. Decius says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 4:25 pm GMT • 100 Words @SolontoCroesus C Bradley Thompson was educated/trained as a Straussian neoconservative, then got mugged by reality and started to re-assess his own philosophical orientation.

    One of the most interesting points Thompson makes in this discussion of his book, Neoconservatism: An Obituary for an Idea, occurs in the Q&A segment when he demonstrates that Strauss was, indeed, an acolyte of Nazi philosopher Carl Schmitt

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Oh6DmjQaho

    No. Strauss and Schmitt were friendly in the 1930s but Strauss was critical of Schmitt's work even then and said so. Schmitt himself said that Strauss had "seen right through" his arguments. Strauss was no acolyte of Schmitt's, he was a greater and deeper thinker and Schmitt–something Schmitt himself acknowledged.

    • Replies: @5371 This is complete nonsense. Schmitt is a powerful and original thinker, Strauss a weak and derivative one whose real sweet spot was academic politics. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
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  46. Decius says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 4:42 pm GMT • 100 Words @SolontoCroesus @ 12 min, Thompson asserts that "Leo Strauss was the most important influence on Irving Kristol's intellectual development. My book reveals for the first time the importance of Kristol's 1952 review of Strauss's Persecution and the Art of Writing . For me this is the Rosetta Stone . . .for understanding the deepest layer of neoconservative political philosophy."


    ---
    It should also be noted that Irving Kristol was sponsored by- on the payroll of - the CIA while still in Britain. Kristol has acknowledged that CIA support got his movement off the ground.

    So what? That's one guy. How do we even know Kristol interpreted Strauss correctly? Kristol's concerns–data-driven social science–were not Strauss's. And so on and on.

    But all that is a re-frame anyway. The charge from Unz is that Strauss is responsible, partly, for the way Americans think about conspiracy today because Strauss advocated for elite conspiracy. That's false and Unz can't back it up.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    The charge from Unz is that Strauss is responsible, partly, for the way Americans think about conspiracy today because Strauss advocated for elite conspiracy. That's false and Unz can't back it up.
    Can't back it up or has not done so, so far?

    The day is young . . . the moon has not yet appeared in the eastern sky. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  47. 5371 says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 4:45 pm GMT @Decius No. Strauss and Schmitt were friendly in the 1930s but Strauss was critical of Schmitt's work even then and said so. Schmitt himself said that Strauss had "seen right through" his arguments. Strauss was no acolyte of Schmitt's, he was a greater and deeper thinker and Schmitt--something Schmitt himself acknowledged.

    This is complete nonsense. Schmitt is a powerful and original thinker, Strauss a weak and derivative one whose real sweet spot was academic politics.

    • Agree: SolontoCroesus • Replies: @Decius Schmitt disagreed with you. , @Decius At any rate it's sort of absurd to watch you people chase your tails. All that you "know" or think you know is that Strauss is bad. But Schmitt is good. But Strauss is derivative of Schmitt. Doesn't that make Strauss good, or Schmitt bad?

    Schmitt is famous for arguing in favor of the essential particularity of politics--i.e., against alleged neocon universalism. So if Strauss is derivative of Schmitt, how can he be a neocon universalist?

    Strauss in fact agrees with Schmitt on the essential particularity of politics and says so, but finds a deeper source, with deeper arguments, in Plato. Schmitt admitted that his own attempt to fortify his particularism was build on the quick-sandy foundation of modern rationalism, which Strauss taught him to see through. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  48. The Alarmist says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 4:50 pm GMT @Wizard of Oz Are you presuming that it should be easy to travel over the entire moon surface and easily arrive at a precisely defined point - and that where the flags are is such a point?

    I was having a little fun with the fact that a Congress Critter thought the Mars Rover could drive up to an American flag planted by the Astronauts on the Earth's Moon.

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  49. Decius says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 4:54 pm GMT @5371 This is complete nonsense. Schmitt is a powerful and original thinker, Strauss a weak and derivative one whose real sweet spot was academic politics.

    Schmitt disagreed with you.

    • Replies: @5371 This way of arguing, too, is redolent of an academic personality cult, not of actual scholarship. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  50. Decius says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 4:59 pm GMT • 100 Words @5371 This is complete nonsense. Schmitt is a powerful and original thinker, Strauss a weak and derivative one whose real sweet spot was academic politics.

    At any rate it's sort of absurd to watch you people chase your tails. All that you "know" or think you know is that Strauss is bad. But Schmitt is good. But Strauss is derivative of Schmitt. Doesn't that make Strauss good, or Schmitt bad?

    Schmitt is famous for arguing in favor of the essential particularity of politics–i.e., against alleged neocon universalism. So if Strauss is derivative of Schmitt, how can he be a neocon universalist?

    Strauss in fact agrees with Schmitt on the essential particularity of politics and says so, but finds a deeper source, with deeper arguments, in Plato. Schmitt admitted that his own attempt to fortify his particularism was build on the quick-sandy foundation of modern rationalism, which Strauss taught him to see through.

    • Replies: @5371 When you can pin Strauss down to a definite meaning, it is false, banal or both. He is usually too obfuscatory to be pinned down. Schmitt is easy to understand and shows you true things you had not thought of before. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  51. The Alarmist says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 5:00 pm GMT @John Jeremiah Smith
    This is a good piece which deserved an acceptable level of mental hygiene in the comment section. Unfortunately, two of the first nine comments are from morons spamming their "no lunar landing" drivel.
    Indeed, and absolute drivel. During the first two moon landings, I was working as an electronic technician, aligning and tuning the radio communications antennas at one of the monitor sites. Unless the physics of the electromagnetic Universe was altered by the conspirators, the origin of radio transmissions from the landing crew could only have come from the Moon. Either that, or space aliens operating a whole 'nuther conspiracy used "seekrut" technology to make it look like signals received at every monitor station were from the Moon. If so, kudos on a boss fake-out scheme.

    "Unless the physics of the electromagnetic Universe was altered by the conspirators, the origin of radio transmissions from the landing crew could only have come from the Moon. "

    I suppose NASA could have sent an S-Band repeater to the Moon.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
    I suppose NASA could have sent an S-Band repeater to the Moon.
    There's more than one scenario that can be assembled to explain any one or two conditions that would have to be "covered" in order to carry out a conspiracy of deception regarding the Moon landings. Considering the inferior level of video jiggering available at the time, it seems to me that providing full "evidence" of the low-gravity behavior of objects, and the absolute two-color light/shadow effects in an absence of atmosphere would be the most difficult.

    The principle of parsimony becomes ascendant at some point in that Hall of Mirrors. It was easier to go to the Moon than it was to fake it.

    Not to be arch, but, even with the repeater on the moon, what about the bounce echo from the tight-beam signal coming from Earth carrying the deceptive info? ;-) Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  52. Hibernian says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 5:02 pm GMT @anonymous Pearl Harbor (covered in "Day of Deceit") is good starting point. I strongly encourage Mr. Unz to read Robert Stinnet's book next before moving on.

    FDR never intended that 2,400 Americans would die there. He just thought that if Japan "struck first", he could justify our entry into WWII to the public. What's really fascinating (and almost wholly unknown) is the sequence of events and headlines from December 8 to December 11, 1941, the date Hitler declared war on the USA.

    While Pearl Harbor meant war with Japan, it did not necessarily guarantee war with Nazi Germany. For 72 hours, no one could be sure that Germany would declare war on us. Did FDR manipulate events post-Pearl Harbor to ensure it did happen?

    "FDR never intended that 2,400 Americans would die there."

    Did he think our forces at Pearl, lacking needed intelligence, would limit the losses to a lesser number?

    • Replies: @anonymous So it would seem. That critical intelligence on the Japanese was deliberately kept from Admiral Kimmel and General Short by FDR and his closest military officials is indisputable.

    The question "why?" has never been answered in any meaningful sense.

    http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/history/item/4742-pearl-harbor-scapegoating-kimmel-and-short Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  53. SolontoCroesus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 5:07 pm GMT • 100 Words @Decius So what? That's one guy. How do we even know Kristol interpreted Strauss correctly? Kristol's concerns--data-driven social science--were not Strauss's. And so on and on.

    But all that is a re-frame anyway. The charge from Unz is that Strauss is responsible, partly, for the way Americans think about conspiracy today because Strauss advocated for elite conspiracy. That's false and Unz can't back it up.

    The charge from Unz is that Strauss is responsible, partly, for the way Americans think about conspiracy today because Strauss advocated for elite conspiracy. That's false and Unz can't back it up.

    Can't back it up or has not done so, so far?

    The day is young . . . the moon has not yet appeared in the eastern sky.

    • Replies: @Decius I know Strauss's books. I am guessing that Unz does not because if he did, he would not attribute to Strauss what he did. At any rate, even if Unz does know the books, I fail to see what passages he could cite to support the paragraph that I highlighted.

    As noted, the claim sounds vaguely derivative of Drury, who hates Strauss (and gets everything wrong) but even she doesn't quite say what Unz says. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  54. Pat Casey says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 5:11 pm GMT • 200 Words @Wizard of Oz From my experience of actors, including amateur actors i have no problem believing Pat Casey's old guy talking about aliens was either a scripted gig maybe for a bet, maybe to see if he could get some money for his family or for medical treatment and the "tells" I totally discount though it might merely be evidence that he's been telling the story for yonks and no one bothers to pull him up on the one mentioned.

    As to the demeanour of the one astronaut that I have now seen from below your comment it does invite questions but yyou seem to be wrong about it being an occasion for celebration. It seems to be much later when they are probably bored out of their minds and quite pissed off at being required to perform yet again as circus ponies.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9Jw0pwTtus

    Ok, what about that tell? You should really watch the whole thing here if you haven't:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NlJQJUUqR4

    My friend knows the guy that interviewed the man about Eisenhower and area 51. He's supposed to be the steely-eyed vet in a field full of dupes. It's possible he's a charlatan employing an actor, but that's not what it sounds like. The one that I can't decide on is this disinformation agent Richard Doty from the film Mirage Men. That one is worth watching.

    My education into the likelihood of extraterrestrials took a quantum leap when I watched The Pyramid Codes on netflix. Mind you that is not an idea the series puts forward-the footage of the Pyramid they don't take tourists to see is enough to know those folks had technology we do not have today.

    For the record I believe we landed on the moon. But, the idea that we did not probably comes from the underbelly of our own government.

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  55. KA says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 5:19 pm GMT • 600 Words

    "HANGZHOU, China - The image of a 5-year-old Syrian boy, dazed and bloodied after being rescued from an airstrike on rebel-held Aleppo, reverberated around the world last month, a harrowing reminder that five years after civil war broke out there, Syria remains a charnel house.
    But the reaction was more muted in Washington, where Syria has become a distant disaster rather than an urgent crisis. President Obama's policy toward Syria has barely budged in the last year and shows no sign of change for the remainder of his term. The White House has faced little pressure over the issue,
    That frustrates many analysts because they believe that a shift in policy will come only when Mr. Obama has left office. "Given the tone of this campaign, I doubt the electorate will be presented with realistic and intelligible options, with respect to Syria," said Frederic C. Hof, a former adviser on Syria in the administration."
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/05/world/middleeast/obama-syria-foreign-policy.html?action=click&contentCollection=Europe&module=RelatedCoverage&region=EndOfArticle&pgtype=article&_r=0

    Spinning by NYT can and will form the base of a conspiracy .

    The world we see are not festooned with the morbid pictures and the world has not one echo chamber among its 7 billions that are reverberating with his sad cry .
    No American taxpayer is piling pressure on Obama.
    Tone of the election doesn't and shouldn't provide option on Syria . Electorates are not asking to know what America should do.
    Next president will introduce something that he wont share w and making them known before the voters will destroy his chances.Someone shared and was evisecrated by NYT and other as Putin's Trojan horse .

    NYT is lying . But this lies can help build the necessarry platform for future wars . Another Sarin gas? Another Harriri death? Another picture of beheadings ? Another story of North Korean supplying nukes ? Wrongful consequences from falsehood will not cost NYT excepting a correction years later somehere in the 5 th page. A conspiracy to hatch is something that has no consequences for the plotters .
    If Dulles were hanged for role in all the illegal things he had done in Guatemala and Iran,may be Kennedy would have survived . But his earlier political escapades were also built on something that were way earlier . Conspiracy keeps on coming back begging for one more round ,for one more time .
    NYT will be there claiming for the right to crow – how it has prepared the ground.

    All are done openly . When resistance is mounted, Bernie Sander supporters are sent home with flowers and a reminder to vote for Clinton because in this age all over the world America is the exception that has heard them . With that satisfaction they can go home and vote as expected. They are not allowed to know how the campaign marginalized Sander's chances from the get go.
    Neither NYT explains how reckless Trump with nuclear code will start a nuclear war with Putin's Russia despite being his co conspirator .

    Chalabi s daughter exclaimed in early part of 2004 – We are heroes in mistakes. She won't say it now . Conspirators would love to get the credit and be recognized . It all depends on the success .
    First Iraq war,if went bad from begining, Lantos wouldn't have been reelected . But again who knows what media can deliver . They delivered Joe Liberman .

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  56. Carlton Meyer says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 5:20 pm GMT • 200 Words

    Some conspiracies are eventually acknowledged. For recent examples, our government finally admitted that our CIA overthrew the government of Iran in the 1950s. The sinking of the Lusitania because it carried tons of munitions and weapons during WW I has been mostly accepted since 1982, after the sunken ship was discovered and searched by divers. For example, Encyclopedia Britannica:

    "The Lusitania was carrying a cargo of rifle ammunition and shells (together about 173 tons), and the Germans, who had circulated warnings that the ship would be sunk, felt themselves fully justified in attacking a vessel that was furthering the war aims of their enemy. The German government also felt that, in view of the vulnerability of U-boats while on the surface and the British announcement of intentions to arm merchant ships, prior warning of potential targets was impractical."

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Lusitania-British-ship

    One of the newest has got little attention, the murder of DNC staffer Seth Rich, who was a computer guy leaking info to Wikileaks.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/08/10/assange-implies-murdered-dnc-staffer-was-wikileaks-source.html

    If we truly had aggressive news competition in the USA, this story would remain in the headlines, but of course its implications are not acceptable. However, stories about Russian hackers persist with no hard evidence.

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  57. JL says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 5:27 pm GMT • 100 Words @John Jeremiah Smith
    The rise of Trump, in the face of a completely and uniformly hostile media, suggests that a large part of the American public, consciously or not, now completely rejects entire media narratives and assumes the exact opposite to be true. And they're panicking.
    Are they? Or, have they simply fired the first few rounds of easily-dispatched, easily-targeted artillery? I do note that this is the most massive full-court press in support of the oligarchy that I have ever seen. But, I sense that political wars have moved from the court of public opinion and perception, into the courtyards of the moneyed elite. Inasmuch as no rich person has ever believed that he or she has enough money and power, the national political conflict is now composed solely of issues that affect the wealth and power of the 0.1%, which is itself segmented into areas of economic focus and varying forms of wealth acquisition. For example, if air transport systems threaten the wealth and power of ocean-based shipping, that competition between oligarchs will morph into politically-expressed contexts.

    There is absolutely no concern, anywhere within the dominion of the 0.1%, with human values, human rights, or any of that sort of ethically-principled hoo-hoo.

    I suppose my comment came off somewhat like unbridled, naive optimism. Your points are unquestionably valid, however, and I am disinclined to argue. Of course Trump represents the interests of certain groups of elites and is not merely the essence of a popular movement. I'll be honest, though, I'm having a tough time determining who these groups are, exactly.

    Just like with Brexit, these events don't happen without powerful manipulation from somewhere within the 0.1%. Still, it's tough for me to imagine what a Trump presidency will even look like. Who will be in his cabinet, from what backgrounds will they come?

    There is absolutely no concern, anywhere within the dominion of the 0.1%, with human values, human rights, or any of that sort of ethically-principled hoo-hoo.

    Certainly not. What are fundamentally important questions for us are merely means to an end for them.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
    Of course Trump represents the interests of certain groups of elites and is not merely the essence of a popular movement. I'll be honest, though, I'm having a tough time determining who these groups are, exactly.
    Yes, and how many players, each with what orientation and degree of focus? The 0.1% population contains 10,000 - 50,00o potential players, globally.

    It is my opinion that the extremely-high degree of corruption, within the mighty engine of resource consumption and bribery that is the US government, contributes greatly to the "big picture" of ongoing conflict among the members of the oligarchy. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  58. Jeffrey S. says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 5:31 pm GMT • 100 Words

    Beard was an interesting guy, but's let's not forget that his central thesis regarding the founding of this country doesn't hold up to historical scrutiny:

    http://www.libertylawsite.org/2014/10/10/charles-beard-living-legend-or-archaic-icon/

    Meanwhile, I think it helps to think about conspiracies philosophically - rigorous thought can help clear up sloppy thinking (which is found in many such theories):

    http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2009/01/trouble-with-conspiracy-theories.html

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  59. Mulegino1 says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 5:35 pm GMT • 100 Words

    With respect to conspiracies, there are two equally absurd extreme views which distract from reality: one is the childish rejection of all conspiracy theories and the other the childish belief that every appreciable newsworthy event with a political, economic or social impact is the result of a nefarious conspiracy. The truth, of course, is to be found in the middle.

    Only a child – or its intellectual equivalent, i.e., a low information infotainment consumer – could believe in the official version of 9/11, or the Manichean narrative of the Second World War and the Myth of the 6 Million.

    On the other hand, there is Hillary Clinton with her "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy" and idiots like Glenn Beck who believe that Vladimir Putin is seeking to conquer the world.

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  60. Decius says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 5:43 pm GMT • 100 Words @SolontoCroesus
    The charge from Unz is that Strauss is responsible, partly, for the way Americans think about conspiracy today because Strauss advocated for elite conspiracy. That's false and Unz can't back it up.
    Can't back it up or has not done so, so far?

    The day is young . . . the moon has not yet appeared in the eastern sky.

    I know Strauss's books. I am guessing that Unz does not because if he did, he would not attribute to Strauss what he did. At any rate, even if Unz does know the books, I fail to see what passages he could cite to support the paragraph that I highlighted.

    As noted, the claim sounds vaguely derivative of Drury, who hates Strauss (and gets everything wrong) but even she doesn't quite say what Unz says.

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  61. Ron Unz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 5:44 pm GMT • 300 Words NEW! @Decius Your characterization of Strauss on conspiracy has almost no basis in anything Strauss actually wrote. I would bet that you are presenting a dumbed -down and inaccurate version of Shadia Drury's books on Strauss, which are themselves abysmally inaccurate and libelous about Strauss.

    The only place Strauss discusses conspiracy thematically that I can recall--and I have read all his books several times, and still read them; have/do you?--is on Thoughts on Machiavelli . Strauss does so, first and foremost, because conspiracy is a major theme of Machiavelli's and the subject of the two longest chapters of his two most important books ( Prince 19 and Discourses III 6). Strauss further develops the idea that modern philosophy begins as a conspiracy between Machiavelli and (some of) his readers. Strauss simply never said anything like this:

    Meanwhile, Strauss, a founding figure in modern neo-conservative thought, was equally harsh in his attacks upon conspiracy analysis, but for polar-opposite reasons. In his mind, elite conspiracies were absolutely necessary and beneficial, a crucial social defense against anarchy or totalitarianism, but their effectiveness obviously depended upon keeping them hidden from the prying eyes of the ignorant masses. His main problem with "conspiracy theories" was not that they were always false, but they might often be true, and therefore their spread was potentially disruptive to the smooth functioning of society. So as a matter of self-defense, elites needed to actively suppress or otherwise undercut the unauthorized investigation of suspected conspiracies.
    As for his relationship with neoconservatism, you also overstate that considerably. Yes, there are many neoconservative Straussians. But there are also Straussian paleos, tradcons, liberatarians, liberals, and moderates. There are many who are apolitical and interested only in abstract philosophy. There are Straussian religious conservatives, agnostics and atheists. Christians, Jews and Muslim. Catholic, Protestants and Mormons. The neocons just get all the attention--owing again, in part to Drury and in part to one terrible 2003 article by James Atlas, which no one these days has read, but quickly became THE account of neocon Straussians controlling the Bush administration, which everyone today believes without having read, or even being aware of (have/are you?).

    If "neocon" has any meaning, it means, first, a former intellectual liberal who has drifted right. Second, a domestic policy scholar who focuses on data-driven social science. And third, a foreign policy hawk.

    None of these really apply to Strauss, who spent his who career studying political philosophy, with an intense focus on the Greeks. He voted Dem in every election in which he could vote, until his last, 1972, when he voted for Nixon out of Cold War concerns. You might say that makes him a "hawk" but he never wrote any essays saying so. He simply told a few people privately that McGovern was too naïve about the Soviets. You might also say that is evidence that he "drifted right" but he didn't think so. He apparently considered himself a Cold War liberal until his death. As for data-driven social science, he famously attacked it in of the very few of his writings that ever got any attention in mainstream political science ("An Epilogue").

    You may well be right about the CIA's role in popularizing the phrase "conspiracy theory." But Leo Strauss had nothing to do with it. Or, if he did, he hid his role exceptionally well, because there is no evidence of such in his writings.

    Your characterization of Strauss on conspiracy has almost no basis in anything Strauss actually wrote. I would bet that you are presenting a dumbed -down and inaccurate version of Shadia Drury's books on Strauss, which are themselves abysmally inaccurate and libelous about Strauss. The only place Strauss discusses conspiracy thematically that I can recall–and I have read all his books several times, and still read them; have/do you? .The neocons just get all the attention–owing again, in part to Drury and in part to one terrible 2003 article by James Atlas, which no one these days has read, but quickly became THE account of neocon Straussians controlling the Bush administration He apparently considered himself a Cold War liberal until his death.

    I'll candidly admit I haven't read a single one of Strauss's own books, nor even that very influential James Atlas article you dislike so intensely. Instead, I was merely summarizing the extensive arguments of Prof. deHaven-Smith, who, as a prominent political scientist, is presumably quite familiar with Strauss, though I don't doubt that his views might differ considerably from your own.

    But on your second point, I do remember seeing a very amusing private letter of Strauss that came to light about a decade or so ago. Written shortly after his arrival in America, it was addressed to a fellow ultra-rightwing Jewish exile from Europe, and in it he praised fascism and (I think) Nazism to the skies, arguing that their regrettable deviation into "anti-Semitism" (which had precipitated his own personal exile from Germany) should in no way be considered a refutation of all the other wonderful aspects of those political doctrines. This leads me to wonder if Strauss was truly the "liberal" you suggest, or perhaps was instead engaging in exactly the sort of "ideological crypsis" that seems such an important part of his political philosophy

    It's likely my faulty memory may have garbled important aspects of the letter I mention, and given your expertise on Straussian issues, I'm sure you should be able to locate it and easily correct me.

    • Replies: @Decius The letter you are referring to is a letter to Karl Lowith from 1933. The most sustained--not to say serious--attempt to make it say that Strauss is coming out as a fascist has been the work of William Altman. I don't think he even comes close to making his case.

    The letter can more charitably and reasonably read as a frank acknowledgement of the failure of Weimar liberalism and of liberalism generally precisely to take into account nationalist sentiment but instead to "universalize" all particulars without due attention to differing conditions, circumstances, "matter," and so on. In other words, Strauss is defending the "concept of the political" both from liberal universalism and from the simple-minded identification of particularism (or nationalism) with fascism. Sound familiar? All nationalist sentiment is fascism, Trump is a Nazi, and so on. An "argument" as old as hills and which Strauss saw through immediately.

    Once again, though, the tail is chased. How can Strauss be both a universalist neo-con and a particularist-nationalist-fascist at the same time? The only common thread is: Strauss is bad.

    In my view, Strauss is good. More to the point, I find stronger intellectual support in Strauss for my own nationalist leanings and pro-Trumpism than I find in any other intellectual source of any depth. I am in the minority among Straussians in thinking so, but I am not alone. Morevoer, I think in open debate, I have a stronger case for Straussian particularism than others can make for Straussian universalism.

    And, not incidentally, none of this points to any such views on conspiracy as you put into Strauss's mouth. , @Jacques Sheete While I've read nothing by Prof. deHaven-Smith, from what you've written, he and DiLorenzo would probably agree.

    Here's a short but readable eval of Strauss' ideas, and DiLorenzo is one academician whom I somewhat trust.:


    Moronic Intellectuals
    By Thomas DiLorenzo

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2004/09/thomas-woods/the-neocon-godfather/ Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  62. Mulegino1 says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 5:48 pm GMT • 100 Words @SolontoCroesus
    Stepping back from it all to get a long distance view one can see the patterns of deceit and manipulation all throughout American political life. It's not just incidental but rather is built in.
    Is this built-in deceit and manipulation unique to American life, or -- beyond the usual understandings about human nature -- is the systematic or institutionalized "deceit and manipulation" present in all cultures? in western cultures? in some but not all cultures? If the lattermost, in which cultures is "deceit and manipulation" less systematic and institutionalized?

    Was "deceit and manipulation" institutionalized into American life from the beginning -- by the Founders, or did USA deviate from its intended path at some point? If so, at what point? How did it happen?

    Is there the possibility of redemption?

    To my mind, the real point of deviation in the history of the United States is the Spanish American War, and the transformation of America from a tellurocratic to a thallasocratic power. America's traditional role had been that of a vast, continental, land based power, eschewing intervention in the affairs of Europe and the rest of the world outside the Western Hemisphere. (This is largely the reason that the Russian Czar allied with the Union in the American Civil War).

    Unfortunately, America's traditional tellurocratic role was abandonded – thanks to the likes of Admiral ("Victory through Sea Power") Mahan, John Hay, and the loopy Teddy Roosevelt, inter alia – and the nation went on to embrace the role of international arbiter and busybody, and became insatiable in the pursuit of empire, with catastrophic results for the world.

    • Agree: SolontoCroesus Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  63. Sam Shama says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 5:59 pm GMT @5371 This is a good piece which deserved an acceptable level of mental hygiene in the comment section. Unfortunately, two of the first nine comments are from morons spamming their "no lunar landing" drivel. In all probability the "no nuclear weapons" clowns will also be here imminently. Oh well, a delicious sweet dish will attract a fly as much as a gourmet.

    [Oh well, a delicious sweet dish will attract a fly as much as a gourmet.]

    LOL. I'll compile a mental list of both. Aren't the comments missing someone btw?

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  64. Decius says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 6:00 pm GMT • 300 Words @Ron Unz
    Your characterization of Strauss on conspiracy has almost no basis in anything Strauss actually wrote. I would bet that you are presenting a dumbed -down and inaccurate version of Shadia Drury's books on Strauss, which are themselves abysmally inaccurate and libelous about Strauss. The only place Strauss discusses conspiracy thematically that I can recall–and I have read all his books several times, and still read them; have/do you?....The neocons just get all the attention–owing again, in part to Drury and in part to one terrible 2003 article by James Atlas, which no one these days has read, but quickly became THE account of neocon Straussians controlling the Bush administration...He apparently considered himself a Cold War liberal until his death.
    I'll candidly admit I haven't read a single one of Strauss's own books, nor even that very influential James Atlas article you dislike so intensely. Instead, I was merely summarizing the extensive arguments of Prof. deHaven-Smith, who, as a prominent political scientist, is presumably quite familiar with Strauss, though I don't doubt that his views might differ considerably from your own.

    But on your second point, I do remember seeing a very amusing private letter of Strauss that came to light about a decade or so ago. Written shortly after his arrival in America, it was addressed to a fellow ultra-rightwing Jewish exile from Europe, and in it he praised fascism and (I think) Nazism to the skies, arguing that their regrettable deviation into "anti-Semitism" (which had precipitated his own personal exile from Germany) should in no way be considered a refutation of all the other wonderful aspects of those political doctrines. This leads me to wonder if Strauss was truly the "liberal" you suggest, or perhaps was instead engaging in exactly the sort of "ideological crypsis" that seems such an important part of his political philosophy...

    It's likely my faulty memory may have garbled important aspects of the letter I mention, and given your expertise on Straussian issues, I'm sure you should be able to locate it and easily correct me.

    The letter you are referring to is a letter to Karl Lowith from 1933. The most sustained–not to say serious–attempt to make it say that Strauss is coming out as a fascist has been the work of William Altman. I don't think he even comes close to making his case.

    The letter can more charitably and reasonably read as a frank acknowledgement of the failure of Weimar liberalism and of liberalism generally precisely to take into account nationalist sentiment but instead to "universalize" all particulars without due attention to differing conditions, circumstances, "matter," and so on. In other words, Strauss is defending the "concept of the political" both from liberal universalism and from the simple-minded identification of particularism (or nationalism) with fascism. Sound familiar? All nationalist sentiment is fascism, Trump is a Nazi, and so on. An "argument" as old as hills and which Strauss saw through immediately.

    Once again, though, the tail is chased. How can Strauss be both a universalist neo-con and a particularist-nationalist-fascist at the same time? The only common thread is: Strauss is bad.

    In my view, Strauss is good. More to the point, I find stronger intellectual support in Strauss for my own nationalist leanings and pro-Trumpism than I find in any other intellectual source of any depth. I am in the minority among Straussians in thinking so, but I am not alone. Morevoer, I think in open debate, I have a stronger case for Straussian particularism than others can make for Straussian universalism.

    And, not incidentally, none of this points to any such views on conspiracy as you put into Strauss's mouth.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    The letter you are referring to is a letter to Karl Lowith from 1933. The most sustained–not to say serious–attempt to make it say that Strauss is coming out as a fascist has been the work of William Altman.
    Well, I decided I might as well google up the letter, and found this extended discussion in Harpers by someone who clearly dislikes Strauss and the Neocons, with a link to a full translation of Strauss's controversial missive.

    http://harpers.org/blog/2008/01/will-the-real-leo-strauss-please-stand-up/

    Offhand, it does indeed seem like I misremembered some of the details. Strauss apparently didn't seem to like the Nazis very much, but it certainly sounds like he had positive feelings towards the Fascists. In any event, the following excerpt makes me wonder whether he was actually a "liberal," or merely pretended to be since his income probably depended upon liberal donors and institutions...

    And, what concerns this matter: the fact that the new right-wing Germany does not tolerate us says nothing against the principles of the right. To the contrary: only from the principles of the right, that is from fascist, authoritarian and imperial principles, is it possible with seemliness, that is, without resort to the ludicrous and despicable appeal to the droits imprescriptibles de l'homme(5) to protest against the shabby abomination...There is no reason to crawl to the cross, neither to the cross of liberalism, as long as somewhere in the world there is a glimmer of the spark of the Roman thought.
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  65. Robard says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 6:04 pm GMT

    If government doesn't believe in conspiracies, why have secret services in the first place? Either they want to thwart conspiracies or they are creating their own or both.

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  66. Lawrence Fitton says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 6:18 pm GMT • 200 Words

    belief in the fantastic is way more entertainment than belief in the mundane. that why the history channel prefers clownish, ancient alien astronaut theorists to phd historians.
    still, the unlimited universe of chance & probability assures rare events happen all the time. in other words, improbable events – because there is infinity of them – are bound to happen with regularity.

    for instance, the author highlights the improbability of a bunch of arabs with box cutters as the perpetrators of 9/11. he's right. taken in isolation, of all the things that might have happened, the occurrence is rare in indeed. but, today, something that's never happened before will happen. and tomorrow too and the day after that. but, because the occurrences may not be as spectacular as 9/11, few will learn about them.

    we believe what we want to believe. we can't know everything about anything, so there will always be questions.

    9/11, the kennedy assassination, the lunar landing, aliens built the pyramids.

    what is real and what is not depends on a point of view.

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  67. Jacques Sheete says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 6:24 pm GMT @Ron Unz
    Your characterization of Strauss on conspiracy has almost no basis in anything Strauss actually wrote. I would bet that you are presenting a dumbed -down and inaccurate version of Shadia Drury's books on Strauss, which are themselves abysmally inaccurate and libelous about Strauss. The only place Strauss discusses conspiracy thematically that I can recall–and I have read all his books several times, and still read them; have/do you?....The neocons just get all the attention–owing again, in part to Drury and in part to one terrible 2003 article by James Atlas, which no one these days has read, but quickly became THE account of neocon Straussians controlling the Bush administration...He apparently considered himself a Cold War liberal until his death.
    I'll candidly admit I haven't read a single one of Strauss's own books, nor even that very influential James Atlas article you dislike so intensely. Instead, I was merely summarizing the extensive arguments of Prof. deHaven-Smith, who, as a prominent political scientist, is presumably quite familiar with Strauss, though I don't doubt that his views might differ considerably from your own.

    But on your second point, I do remember seeing a very amusing private letter of Strauss that came to light about a decade or so ago. Written shortly after his arrival in America, it was addressed to a fellow ultra-rightwing Jewish exile from Europe, and in it he praised fascism and (I think) Nazism to the skies, arguing that their regrettable deviation into "anti-Semitism" (which had precipitated his own personal exile from Germany) should in no way be considered a refutation of all the other wonderful aspects of those political doctrines. This leads me to wonder if Strauss was truly the "liberal" you suggest, or perhaps was instead engaging in exactly the sort of "ideological crypsis" that seems such an important part of his political philosophy...

    It's likely my faulty memory may have garbled important aspects of the letter I mention, and given your expertise on Straussian issues, I'm sure you should be able to locate it and easily correct me.

    While I've read nothing by Prof. deHaven-Smith, from what you've written, he and DiLorenzo would probably agree.

    Here's a short but readable eval of Strauss' ideas, and DiLorenzo is one academician whom I somewhat trust.:

    Moronic Intellectuals
    By Thomas DiLorenzo

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2004/09/thomas-woods/the-neocon-godfather/

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  68. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  69. John Jeremiah Smith says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 6:29 pm GMT • 100 Words @JL I suppose my comment came off somewhat like unbridled, naive optimism. Your points are unquestionably valid, however, and I am disinclined to argue. Of course Trump represents the interests of certain groups of elites and is not merely the essence of a popular movement. I'll be honest, though, I'm having a tough time determining who these groups are, exactly.

    Just like with Brexit, these events don't happen without powerful manipulation from somewhere within the 0.1%. Still, it's tough for me to imagine what a Trump presidency will even look like. Who will be in his cabinet, from what backgrounds will they come?

    There is absolutely no concern, anywhere within the dominion of the 0.1%, with human values, human rights, or any of that sort of ethically-principled hoo-hoo.
    Certainly not. What are fundamentally important questions for us are merely means to an end for them.

    Of course Trump represents the interests of certain groups of elites and is not merely the essence of a popular movement. I'll be honest, though, I'm having a tough time determining who these groups are, exactly.

    Yes, and how many players, each with what orientation and degree of focus? The 0.1% population contains 10,000 – 50,00o potential players, globally.

    It is my opinion that the extremely-high degree of corruption, within the mighty engine of resource consumption and bribery that is the US government, contributes greatly to the "big picture" of ongoing conflict among the members of the oligarchy.

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  70. • Replies: @Anonymous
    I was a boy watching those transmissions you helped bring us. Thank you, Sir!

    Apollo is one of the greatest human achievements, my absolute favorite historical event. I consider myself lucky to have been alive and old enough to witness and understand it.

    ...

    And I believe there has been in fact some conspiratorial effort over the years to promote their idiocy, a conspiracy on the part of those who would weaken American pride and reputation.

    Sure, it's certainly possible that there's been a conspiracy to promote the notion that the moon landing was a hoax.

    But it's also true that people with deep emotional attachments to things, especially inculcated in childhood, have trouble considering and questioning certain things. And it's well known that propaganda deliberately tries to inculcate these sort of emotional attachments in order to be more effective. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  71. Pat Casey says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 6:31 pm GMT • 100 Words @Decius Your characterization of Strauss on conspiracy has almost no basis in anything Strauss actually wrote. I would bet that you are presenting a dumbed -down and inaccurate version of Shadia Drury's books on Strauss, which are themselves abysmally inaccurate and libelous about Strauss.

    The only place Strauss discusses conspiracy thematically that I can recall--and I have read all his books several times, and still read them; have/do you?--is on Thoughts on Machiavelli . Strauss does so, first and foremost, because conspiracy is a major theme of Machiavelli's and the subject of the two longest chapters of his two most important books ( Prince 19 and Discourses III 6). Strauss further develops the idea that modern philosophy begins as a conspiracy between Machiavelli and (some of) his readers. Strauss simply never said anything like this:

    Meanwhile, Strauss, a founding figure in modern neo-conservative thought, was equally harsh in his attacks upon conspiracy analysis, but for polar-opposite reasons. In his mind, elite conspiracies were absolutely necessary and beneficial, a crucial social defense against anarchy or totalitarianism, but their effectiveness obviously depended upon keeping them hidden from the prying eyes of the ignorant masses. His main problem with "conspiracy theories" was not that they were always false, but they might often be true, and therefore their spread was potentially disruptive to the smooth functioning of society. So as a matter of self-defense, elites needed to actively suppress or otherwise undercut the unauthorized investigation of suspected conspiracies.
    As for his relationship with neoconservatism, you also overstate that considerably. Yes, there are many neoconservative Straussians. But there are also Straussian paleos, tradcons, liberatarians, liberals, and moderates. There are many who are apolitical and interested only in abstract philosophy. There are Straussian religious conservatives, agnostics and atheists. Christians, Jews and Muslim. Catholic, Protestants and Mormons. The neocons just get all the attention--owing again, in part to Drury and in part to one terrible 2003 article by James Atlas, which no one these days has read, but quickly became THE account of neocon Straussians controlling the Bush administration, which everyone today believes without having read, or even being aware of (have/are you?).

    If "neocon" has any meaning, it means, first, a former intellectual liberal who has drifted right. Second, a domestic policy scholar who focuses on data-driven social science. And third, a foreign policy hawk.

    None of these really apply to Strauss, who spent his who career studying political philosophy, with an intense focus on the Greeks. He voted Dem in every election in which he could vote, until his last, 1972, when he voted for Nixon out of Cold War concerns. You might say that makes him a "hawk" but he never wrote any essays saying so. He simply told a few people privately that McGovern was too naïve about the Soviets. You might also say that is evidence that he "drifted right" but he didn't think so. He apparently considered himself a Cold War liberal until his death. As for data-driven social science, he famously attacked it in of the very few of his writings that ever got any attention in mainstream political science ("An Epilogue").

    You may well be right about the CIA's role in popularizing the phrase "conspiracy theory." But Leo Strauss had nothing to do with it. Or, if he did, he hid his role exceptionally well, because there is no evidence of such in his writings.

    Actually I don't think Ron is so far off. And I think, at best, you must be overeducated. Strauss held that authentic philosophy is a conspiracy . From there, certain practical advice about how to carry out the philosophy of the true philosopher follows. Such advice would about seem to be how Ron said it was.

    I have not read the essay by Atlas. But for the duration of the Bush Administration I did read the Weekly Standard. I recall in particular one time when the editors recommended what books to bring to the beach, and Bill Kristol said "anything by Leo Strauss." My impression is that the Weekly Standard's brazen propaganda back then was the way certain editors understood themselves to be acting like Strauss's true disciples.

    And of course now Krystol is hocking a former spook to run against Trump in Utah.

    • Replies: @Decius The reduction of Strauss and all his concerns to TWS is not serious. Yes, Bill K loves Strauss. That really doesn't prove much about Strauss either way. I believe, though of course cannot prove since Strauss can't speak, that Strauss would have opposed the Iraq War. He would have seen it as imprudent and prudence is the supreme virtue of the statesman.

    You are sort of right about philosophy being a conspiracy, but wrong in the second half. MODERN philosophy attempts to take the conspiracy public, so to speak, to act in the real world. Ancient philosophy did not, or did so in a very limited, mitigating way, always with caution, moderation, prudence, and a lack of messianic hopes or intentions. Strauss argued his whole life for the superiority of the ancients to the moderns on this point (and on other points). Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  72. Ron Unz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 6:34 pm GMT • 200 Words NEW! @Decius The letter you are referring to is a letter to Karl Lowith from 1933. The most sustained--not to say serious--attempt to make it say that Strauss is coming out as a fascist has been the work of William Altman. I don't think he even comes close to making his case.

    The letter can more charitably and reasonably read as a frank acknowledgement of the failure of Weimar liberalism and of liberalism generally precisely to take into account nationalist sentiment but instead to "universalize" all particulars without due attention to differing conditions, circumstances, "matter," and so on. In other words, Strauss is defending the "concept of the political" both from liberal universalism and from the simple-minded identification of particularism (or nationalism) with fascism. Sound familiar? All nationalist sentiment is fascism, Trump is a Nazi, and so on. An "argument" as old as hills and which Strauss saw through immediately.

    Once again, though, the tail is chased. How can Strauss be both a universalist neo-con and a particularist-nationalist-fascist at the same time? The only common thread is: Strauss is bad.

    In my view, Strauss is good. More to the point, I find stronger intellectual support in Strauss for my own nationalist leanings and pro-Trumpism than I find in any other intellectual source of any depth. I am in the minority among Straussians in thinking so, but I am not alone. Morevoer, I think in open debate, I have a stronger case for Straussian particularism than others can make for Straussian universalism.

    And, not incidentally, none of this points to any such views on conspiracy as you put into Strauss's mouth.

    The letter you are referring to is a letter to Karl Lowith from 1933. The most sustained–not to say serious–attempt to make it say that Strauss is coming out as a fascist has been the work of William Altman.

    Well, I decided I might as well google up the letter, and found this extended discussion in Harpers by someone who clearly dislikes Strauss and the Neocons, with a link to a full translation of Strauss's controversial missive.

    http://harpers.org/blog/2008/01/will-the-real-leo-strauss-please-stand-up/

    Offhand, it does indeed seem like I misremembered some of the details. Strauss apparently didn't seem to like the Nazis very much, but it certainly sounds like he had positive feelings towards the Fascists. In any event, the following excerpt makes me wonder whether he was actually a "liberal," or merely pretended to be since his income probably depended upon liberal donors and institutions

    And, what concerns this matter: the fact that the new right-wing Germany does not tolerate us says nothing against the principles of the right. To the contrary: only from the principles of the right, that is from fascist, authoritarian and imperial principles, is it possible with seemliness, that is, without resort to the ludicrous and despicable appeal to the droits imprescriptibles de l'homme(5) to protest against the shabby abomination There is no reason to crawl to the cross, neither to the cross of liberalism, as long as somewhere in the world there is a glimmer of the spark of the Roman thought.

    • Replies: @Decius What is a liberal? That's not a troll question. Strauss was above all a Socratic and Socratic philosophy begins with "what is" questions. One of Strauss's books is entitled Liberalism Ancient and Modern .

    Strauss was apparently a liberal in the US context in that he mostly voted for Dems. He also wrote one acerbically critical letter to National Review.

    However, a mid-20th-century American liberal may have been many things, but unpatriotic or nationalistic they were not. When liberalism turned with McGovern, Strauss looked elsewhere, and then died a year later, so we don't know how his political outlook would, or would not, have changed longer term. But at least in the 40s-60s, he was quite OK with Cold War American liberals. That's perfectly consistent with the nationalist sentiment expressed in the letter to Lowith. Also, Strauss was appalled by the dissoluteness of Weimar--and would become appalled by the dissoluteness of the late 1960s. But America prior was not yet dissolute. And he was appalled by Weimar's weakness. But America pre-Vietnam was not weak. Again, perfectly consistent with the letter.

    Strauss supported the Cold War because he thought the USSR was a real threat in the near term and because he feared, on a higher plane, the imposition of "the universal and homogenous state." He was opposed to that, whereas those to his left were for it. So was he conservative?

    Strauss transcends all these distinctions. That's not to say that they are meaningless. Indeed, he would be the first to say that they are meaningful. But, like Tocqueville, Strauss aimed to see not differently but further than the parties. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  73. Buzz Mohawk says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 6:48 pm GMT • 100 Words

    By reading Ron's American Pravda series of columns, I am learning things that otherwise I would not have known. I am developing a clearer understanding of the real truth . This is an important contribution to my understanding of of reality!

    And I trust this because of the quality and earnestness of the source.

    This is all very much appreciated.

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  74. Decius says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 6:50 pm GMT • 300 Words @Ron Unz
    The letter you are referring to is a letter to Karl Lowith from 1933. The most sustained–not to say serious–attempt to make it say that Strauss is coming out as a fascist has been the work of William Altman.
    Well, I decided I might as well google up the letter, and found this extended discussion in Harpers by someone who clearly dislikes Strauss and the Neocons, with a link to a full translation of Strauss's controversial missive.

    http://harpers.org/blog/2008/01/will-the-real-leo-strauss-please-stand-up/

    Offhand, it does indeed seem like I misremembered some of the details. Strauss apparently didn't seem to like the Nazis very much, but it certainly sounds like he had positive feelings towards the Fascists. In any event, the following excerpt makes me wonder whether he was actually a "liberal," or merely pretended to be since his income probably depended upon liberal donors and institutions...

    And, what concerns this matter: the fact that the new right-wing Germany does not tolerate us says nothing against the principles of the right. To the contrary: only from the principles of the right, that is from fascist, authoritarian and imperial principles, is it possible with seemliness, that is, without resort to the ludicrous and despicable appeal to the droits imprescriptibles de l'homme(5) to protest against the shabby abomination...There is no reason to crawl to the cross, neither to the cross of liberalism, as long as somewhere in the world there is a glimmer of the spark of the Roman thought.

    What is a liberal? That's not a troll question. Strauss was above all a Socratic and Socratic philosophy begins with "what is" questions. One of Strauss's books is entitled Liberalism Ancient and Modern .

    Strauss was apparently a liberal in the US context in that he mostly voted for Dems. He also wrote one acerbically critical letter to National Review.

    However, a mid-20th-century American liberal may have been many things, but unpatriotic or nationalistic they were not. When liberalism turned with McGovern, Strauss looked elsewhere, and then died a year later, so we don't know how his political outlook would, or would not, have changed longer term. But at least in the 40s-60s, he was quite OK with Cold War American liberals. That's perfectly consistent with the nationalist sentiment expressed in the letter to Lowith. Also, Strauss was appalled by the dissoluteness of Weimar–and would become appalled by the dissoluteness of the late 1960s. But America prior was not yet dissolute. And he was appalled by Weimar's weakness. But America pre-Vietnam was not weak. Again, perfectly consistent with the letter.

    Strauss supported the Cold War because he thought the USSR was a real threat in the near term and because he feared, on a higher plane, the imposition of "the universal and homogenous state." He was opposed to that, whereas those to his left were for it. So was he conservative?

    Strauss transcends all these distinctions. That's not to say that they are meaningless. Indeed, he would be the first to say that they are meaningful. But, like Tocqueville, Strauss aimed to see not differently but further than the parties.

    • Replies: @dahoit Liberals used to say,I might not agree with what you say,but I'll defend you right to say it.
    Today they want to implant Citizenchips.
    Moon landings a hoax?I doubt that,but does it matter to today's terrible times other than a sign of American dominance in space race propaganda?
    Today we send up zionist satellites(when they don't explode) and fund their citizens efforts in militarization of space that threatens all,including US.
    Unbelievable but true. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  75. anonymous says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 6:50 pm GMT @Hibernian "FDR never intended that 2,400 Americans would die there."

    Did he think our forces at Pearl, lacking needed intelligence, would limit the losses to a lesser number?

    So it would seem. That critical intelligence on the Japanese was deliberately kept from Admiral Kimmel and General Short by FDR and his closest military officials is indisputable.

    The question "why?" has never been answered in any meaningful sense.

    http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/history/item/4742-pearl-harbor-scapegoating-kimmel-and-short

    • Replies: @Darin Yes, why?

    If you want to start a war, would you want to start with great defeat and loss of your fleet?

    In the thirties, there were three cases of false flag attacks created to justify a war.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukden_Incident
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila

    In none of these cases the attacker actually killed thousands of his own soldiers, what would be the point? , @anonymous Here is Admiral Kimmel himself telling us that the FDR administration in Washington deliberately withheld vital intelligence from him, intelligence that would have saved countless lives:

    https://youtu.be/Bo00IcRj_4Y Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  76. Decius says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 6:54 pm GMT • 100 Words @Pat Casey Actually I don't think Ron is so far off. And I think, at best, you must be overeducated. Strauss held that authentic philosophy is a conspiracy . From there, certain practical advice about how to carry out the philosophy of the true philosopher follows. Such advice would about seem to be how Ron said it was.

    I have not read the essay by Atlas. But for the duration of the Bush Administration I did read the Weekly Standard. I recall in particular one time when the editors recommended what books to bring to the beach, and Bill Kristol said "anything by Leo Strauss." My impression is that the Weekly Standard's brazen propaganda back then was the way certain editors understood themselves to be acting like Strauss's true disciples.

    And of course now Krystol is hocking a former spook to run against Trump in Utah.

    The reduction of Strauss and all his concerns to TWS is not serious. Yes, Bill K loves Strauss. That really doesn't prove much about Strauss either way. I believe, though of course cannot prove since Strauss can't speak, that Strauss would have opposed the Iraq War. He would have seen it as imprudent and prudence is the supreme virtue of the statesman.

    You are sort of right about philosophy being a conspiracy, but wrong in the second half. MODERN philosophy attempts to take the conspiracy public, so to speak, to act in the real world. Ancient philosophy did not, or did so in a very limited, mitigating way, always with caution, moderation, prudence, and a lack of messianic hopes or intentions. Strauss argued his whole life for the superiority of the ancients to the moderns on this point (and on other points).

    • Replies: @utu Unless you give some evidence that Strauss was a Reptilian or at least that he was a skeptic about the Moon landing there is no need for further discussion on Strauss here. , @Pat Casey
    The reduction of Strauss and all his concerns to TWS is not serious.
    That's not what I did. Don't do that. You seemed to be saying the neo-cons do not hail from the school of Strauss as this Atlas fellow said they did. I was saying they do, according to them.

    It was pretty obvious back then that the weekly standard was acting as an organ of the bush administration more than a member of the media. I remember there was even a tepid discussion about how we as journalist should feel about these fellas with one foot in the media and one foot in the politics. Does that have anything to do with the style Strauss bespoke? My understanding is that Strauss addressed his philosophy not to Princes but certain among the reading public. That turns out to first of all mean political journalists who will sacrifice the integrity of their profession for the sake of a particular kind of proud story about the USA polity and its villains. Yes I do think people like Bill Krystol and Michael Ledeen saw themselves in terms as dramatic as that.

    You are sort of right about philosophy being a conspiracy, but wrong in the second half. MODERN philosophy attempts to take the conspiracy public, so to speak, to act in the real world. Ancient philosophy did not, or did so in a very limited, mitigating way, always with caution, moderation, prudence, and a lack of messianic hopes or intentions. Strauss argued his whole life for the superiority of the ancients to the moderns on this point (and on other points).
    You mean I was right about Strauss having a conspiracy theory of philosophy. I didn't say anything about the second half. I read Paul Gottfried and I agree Strauss was a ridiculous scholar. Of course I believe you when you say in so many words that Strauss did not like philosophies that license mass movements of true believers. Full stop right there. Now we can count back from all them and make this an exercise in splitting hairs. What audience to be precise did Strauss exactly have in mind? Actually I don't think he deserves that much credit; I don't think he really knew who he was writing for. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  77. says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 6:59 pm GMT • 100 Words

    So as a means of damage control, the CIA distributed a secret memo to all its field offices requesting that they enlist their media assets in efforts to ridicule and attack such critics as irrational supporters of "conspiracy theories."

    And what do you know, the term "conspiracy theories" was non-existent in books before JFK's assassination but took off right after, according to Google's Ngram Viewer: https://is.gd/GYioQZ

    • Replies: @Peripatetic commenter I see that someone has updated a document about that:

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Conspiracy_theory#Pejorative_meaning Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  78. • Replies: @Mr. Anon "Oleynik is Ukrainian."

    The Ukrainians were, you know, part of the same Soviet Union which failed to put a man on the Moon.

    "At any rate, attacking his ethnic background is just a cheap ad hominem argument."

    No, it is pointing out what might be real motive for him to do what he is doing.

    "Soros and his foundations funded, and still do presumably, scholarships and education grants in Eastern Europe following the Soviet collapse."

    And what do you think of Soros? Do you think he is a manipulator of peoples, movements, entire governments? If so, what does it say that this guy was once on his payroll? Or do you simply temporarily suspend one part of your world-view when it becomes inconvenient for another part of it?

    In any event, his purported photgraphic analysis is crap. He's talking about parallax exhibited in pairs of images taken from different bearings - but the pictures themselves were not even taken at the same locations, as can easily be seen from the details in the foreground. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  79. Darin says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 7:30 pm GMT • 100 Words @anonymous So it would seem. That critical intelligence on the Japanese was deliberately kept from Admiral Kimmel and General Short by FDR and his closest military officials is indisputable.

    The question "why?" has never been answered in any meaningful sense.

    http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/history/item/4742-pearl-harbor-scapegoating-kimmel-and-short

    Yes, why?

    If you want to start a war, would you want to start with great defeat and loss of your fleet?

    In the thirties, there were three cases of false flag attacks created to justify a war.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukden_Incident
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila

    In none of these cases the attacker actually killed thousands of his own soldiers, what would be the point?

    • Replies: @exiled off mainstreet I didn't notice Gleiwitz was mentioned in another posting before I mentioned it. I tend go along with you and suspect incompetence rather than purpose was the cause of the Pearl Harbor disaster, though the incompetence may have included failure to adequately warn those on the ground at Pearl Harbor. Personally, I don't back the "truther" version of the twin towers because that would have required a broader conspiracy than I think could have succeeded. My guess is that the neighboring building was destroyed as part of the cleanup effort. I do think, however, that the authorities knew something was up, didn't believe it could ever succeed and used it as a sort of Reichstag Fire incident to brush aside constitutional democracy in the US. I also suspect that the Mossad knew more than they let on. My guess is that if Gore rather than Bush had been in power that history would have been far different. I suspect that the anthrax thing was more likely started by the yankee regime as a home-grown conspiracy. , @Hippopotamusdrome

    If you want to start a war, would you want to start with great defeat and loss of your fleet?
    The fleet wasn't lost. The carriers were out at sea and not sunk. Eight battleships, three cruisers and three destroyers were damaged. Battleships were obsolete by that time in the face of aircraft. Battleships were mainly used as AA platforms to protect carriers and to bombard airfields. , @Jonathan Revusky
    In none of these cases the attacker actually killed thousands of his own soldiers, what would be the point?
    Well, the answer should be obvious, no? You have an existing situation in which eat least 80% of the U.S. population is opposed to the war and you want to mobilize them. If you play chess, there are all these openings called "gambits" where you sacrifice a pawn or two to more rapidly mobilize your forces.

    3000 people is really just peanuts on a national level. If the result is that you get all this outrage and suddenly the majority of the population is screaming for war, well that could be well worth it. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  80. Miro23 says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 7:35 pm GMT • 700 Words @Wizard of Oz I accept that your explanation of the attack on USS Liberty is relatively plausible but another which runs it close is that Israel had to ensure that there was no proof left of the true order of events which were not in accordance with the Israeli official version. So I ask what are your sources?

    Likewise, if you are saying that suicidal hijackers flew planes into buildings on 9/11 but that it was organised by Mossad or other Israelis your story needs a lot of filling out and evidence to be credible. Or are you merely saying the Israelis knew what was going to
    happen and let it go ahead because it could be turned to their advantage?

    [Sorry, long reply]

    The basic fact about the USS Liberty is that an American navy ship was attacked with the aim of sinking it, which is an Act of War since the ship was clearly marked.

    In contrast, the attacking Israeli jets and torpedo boats were unmarked (i.e. they wanted to hide their identity), so a question is why were they unmarked if this was a standard military interception?

    Whether the Israelis wanted to trigger a US attack on Egypt or hide their communications with regard to their attack on Syria is a secondary question. The main concern of the United States surely had to be to rescue their seamen and respond to the aggression.

    And, this is where the story turns really nasty.

    At least two rescue attempts were launched from US aircraft carriers nearby, but after the (obligatory) communication to Washington, both rescue flights were cancelled within minutes on direct orders of Secretary of Defence, Robert McNamara (source: 6th Fleet Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis speaking in confidence to the senior Liberty survivor, Naval Security Group officer, Lieutenant Commander David Lewis in a meeting requested by Geis).

    Surviving personnel all received strict orders not say anything to anyone about the attack.

    Eyewitness accounts say that 4 nuclear armed aircraft were simultaneously launched from the aircraft carrier America on the instructions of President Johnson only to be recalled when, presumably, the information came through that the Israelis had not succeeded in sinking the Liberty. Nuclear weapons were not needed to defend the Liberty.

    Also there was an oral history report from the American Embassy in Cairo, (now in the LBJ Library), which notes that the Embassy received an urgent message from Washington warning that Cairo was about to be bombed by US forces.

    An investigation led by Thomas Moorer, the former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff held the opinion that the Israeli motive was to draw the US into war against Egypt , through a false subterfuge of the same type as their King David Hotel bombing and Lavon Affair operations.

    Any rational person has to conclude that Johnson was virtually following Israeli orders, which raises the question of why? Maybe they were blackmailing him with regard to something else that was more important to him than the destruction of Cairo?

    9/11 had some of the same features as other Israeli False Flag attacks against Britain and the US, such as Israelis dressed as Arabs (framed Arabs) motivated towards tricking these countries into military action against Arab states. In fact the Israeli involvement in 9/11 was much deeper and more generalized as shown in investigative reporter Christopher Bollyn's book, "Solving 9-11: The Deception That Changed the World". https://www.amazon.com/Solving-9-11-Deception-Changed-World/dp/0985322586/ref=cm_cr-mr-title

    15 years later his account is supported in multiple ways from investigations in Florida (they didn't sneak in unseen – they were highly visible and got red carpet treatment with regard to visas etc. and they were completely incapable of flying the 9/11 airliners at the speeds and on the trajectories seen on the day + everyone who had contact with them was visited by the F.B.I. and told to shut up) – Source, a detailed and very interesting investigation by Daniel Hopsicker in "Welcome to Terrorland: Mohamed Atta and the 9/11 Cover-Up in Florida. https://www.amazon.com/Welcome-Terrorland-Mohamed-Cover-up-Florida/dp/0975290673/ref=cm_cr-mr-title

    High-rise buildings don't collapse due to fire (reason given by the US government). All high rise fire disasters have been examined in detail, with most of them much more intense than the WTC ones, and no building collapsed – let alone in 7 seconds and three on the same day.

    These Arabs didn't fly the jets and it's now clear that the buildings were taken down by placed explosives – the aim being to trick the US into an Iraq and Iran war and possibly launch an "Emergency" Neo-con regime (dictatorship) in the US led by Cheney and enforced by the Patriot Act/ Homeland security.

    The other aspect here is that a government (and media) which genuinely represented the American people would give top priority to revealing the truth about the USS Liberty and 9/11 rather than engage in the present obfuscation, blocking, threats, smears and hiding of the truth.

    • Replies: @nsa We here in Ft. Meade and Langley, using our vast media assets, have successfully inoculated the public against these deviant 911 ideas. Game over....we have achieved full spectrum dominance and total information awareness throughout 99% of the planet. , @Wizard of Oz Thanks. I wonder what will happen to Israel's support if and when serious money and research and publicity is put into telling the whole Liberty story and making sure it is drummed in.

    Your 9/11 version I don't buy, not least because someone suicidal/murderous had to be controlling the planes. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  81. anonymous says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 7:38 pm GMT @anonymous So it would seem. That critical intelligence on the Japanese was deliberately kept from Admiral Kimmel and General Short by FDR and his closest military officials is indisputable.

    The question "why?" has never been answered in any meaningful sense.

    http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/history/item/4742-pearl-harbor-scapegoating-kimmel-and-short

    Here is Admiral Kimmel himself telling us that the FDR administration in Washington deliberately withheld vital intelligence from him, intelligence that would have saved countless lives:

    https://youtu.be/Bo00IcRj_4Y

    Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  82. utu says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 7:38 pm GMT @Decius The reduction of Strauss and all his concerns to TWS is not serious. Yes, Bill K loves Strauss. That really doesn't prove much about Strauss either way. I believe, though of course cannot prove since Strauss can't speak, that Strauss would have opposed the Iraq War. He would have seen it as imprudent and prudence is the supreme virtue of the statesman.

    You are sort of right about philosophy being a conspiracy, but wrong in the second half. MODERN philosophy attempts to take the conspiracy public, so to speak, to act in the real world. Ancient philosophy did not, or did so in a very limited, mitigating way, always with caution, moderation, prudence, and a lack of messianic hopes or intentions. Strauss argued his whole life for the superiority of the ancients to the moderns on this point (and on other points).

    Unless you give some evidence that Strauss was a Reptilian or at least that he was a skeptic about the Moon landing there is no need for further discussion on Strauss here.

    Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  83. Erik Sieven says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 7:40 pm GMT @Kirt Conspiracy is simply a plan or agreement by more than one person to do something evil and then the pursuit of that plan. Secrecy may be needed for the success of a conspiracy, but it is not essential to the definition. Were it essential to the definition, you could never prove the existence of a conspiracy. Either secrecy would be maintained and there would be little or no evidence or secrecy would not be maintained and the plan would become known and by definition not be a conspiracy.

    "Conspiracy is simply a plan or agreement by more than one person to do something evil and then the pursuit of that plan." but probably everything think that what he does is good, not evil

    • Replies: @Kirt "probably everything think that what he does is good, not evil"

    Yeah, that's true. I think that it was Saint Thomas Aquinas who said that evil is always done under an aspect of good. Hence no one will consider himself a conspirator other than perhaps in a legal sense if he is aware that what he is doing is illegal. Apart from that the charge of conspiracy will always come from opponents; e.g. Hilly's charge of "a vast right-wing conspiracy". Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  84. Darin says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 7:47 pm GMT • 100 Words

    Another question to all conspirologists out there: what you think about Trump plant theory?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_plant_theory

    https://www.facebook.com/ClintonTrumpConspiracy

    Is Donald Trump paid by Clintons to let Hillary win? This need no big conspiracy, only Donald, Bill, Hill and few of their closest advisors would be on the plot, and it fits the character and modus operandi of the plotters. Any thoughts?

    • Replies: @RobinG For a while I've wondered if Hillary funded Martin O'Malley, and also Lincoln Chaffee, just to give the illusion that there was some competition, and to give her an excuse to get media exposure in the primaries.

    (Hat-tip to a friend who posits that Virginia Independent Greens are a creation of Va. Repubs. for the same reasons.) Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  85. Dave37 says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 8:01 pm GMT

    Maybe the CIA used conspiracy theory but ordinary perverse humans invented it. If moon lander deniers (and other conspiracies) were proven wrong the rest of us would be happy to see them in public stocks and a ready supply of tomatoes.

    • Replies: @Bill Jones So no freedom of speech in your little world then. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  86. Conspiracy Theories Are True - PaulCraigRoberts.org says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 8:09 pm GMT • 100 Words

    [ ] I described how the CIA flummoxed insouciant Americans. Ron Unz gives you the intellectual history behind of how two foreign intellectuals, Karl Popper and Leo Strauss, shoved aside the truth-telling American intellectual, Charles Beard, who, like our founding fathers, had his finger on government's propensity to deceive the people with conspiracies. Popper said that conspiracies couldn't happen, and Strauss said they were necessary so that the government could pursue its agendas despite the public's opposition. http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-how-the-cia-invented-conspiracy-theories/ [ ]

  87. art guerrilla says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 8:10 pm GMT • 100 Words @Chief Seattle So, a conspiracy theory is a theory without media backing. There's no better recent example of this than when the DNC emails were released by wikileaks during their convention. The story put forth was that Russian hackers were responsible, and were trying to throw the election to their buddy Trump. The evidence for this? Zero. And yet it became a plausible explanation in the media, overnight.

    Maybe it's true, maybe not, but if the roles had been reversed, the media would be telling its proponents to take off their tin foil hats.

    ahhh, but 'Russkie!/squirrel!' worked, didn't it ? ? ?
    virtually NOTHING about the actual content of the emails
    what was hysterical, was a followup not too long afterwards, where pelosi 'warned' that there might be a whole raft of other emails which said bad stuff and stuff, and, um, they were -like- probably, um, all, uh, fake and stuff
    it really is a funny tragi-comedy, isn't it ? ? ?
    then why am i crying inside

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  88. Alden says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 8:17 pm GMT • 100 Words @Wizard of Oz I accept that your explanation of the attack on USS Liberty is relatively plausible but another which runs it close is that Israel had to ensure that there was no proof left of the true order of events which were not in accordance with the Israeli official version. So I ask what are your sources?

    Likewise, if you are saying that suicidal hijackers flew planes into buildings on 9/11 but that it was organised by Mossad or other Israelis your story needs a lot of filling out and evidence to be credible. Or are you merely saying the Israelis knew what was going to
    happen and let it go ahead because it could be turned to their advantage?

    Re: your first question about the USS Liberty. The media covered it up completely. I was a young adult who read the newspaper every day plus Atlantic. new Republic and sometimes Newsweek.
    And I never, never heard about it until 20 years later when I began reading books about Zionism

    I've read the book written by survivors. They were severely coerced to not say a word about it. I wouldn't be surprised if they were not threatened with death if they talked. They were in the navy remember and subject to the military code of Justice which means no ha rays corpus no access to attorneys until the trial and other nasty things.

    I can't have an opinion about 9/11 because there is no way I can discover the truth. Silverstein's insurance payout is just a version of a standard insurance scam.

    Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  89. nsa says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 8:22 pm GMT @Miro23 [Sorry, long reply]

    The basic fact about the USS Liberty is that an American navy ship was attacked with the aim of sinking it, which is an Act of War since the ship was clearly marked.

    In contrast, the attacking Israeli jets and torpedo boats were unmarked (i.e. they wanted to hide their identity), so a question is why were they unmarked if this was a standard military interception?

    Whether the Israelis wanted to trigger a US attack on Egypt or hide their communications with regard to their attack on Syria is a secondary question. The main concern of the United States surely had to be to rescue their seamen and respond to the aggression.

    And, this is where the story turns really nasty.

    At least two rescue attempts were launched from US aircraft carriers nearby, but after the (obligatory) communication to Washington, both rescue flights were cancelled within minutes on direct orders of Secretary of Defence, Robert McNamara (source: 6th Fleet Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis speaking in confidence to the senior Liberty survivor, Naval Security Group officer, Lieutenant Commander David Lewis in a meeting requested by Geis).

    Surviving personnel all received strict orders not say anything to anyone about the attack.

    Eyewitness accounts say that 4 nuclear armed aircraft were simultaneously launched from the aircraft carrier America on the instructions of President Johnson only to be recalled when, presumably, the information came through that the Israelis had not succeeded in sinking the Liberty. Nuclear weapons were not needed to defend the Liberty.

    Also there was an oral history report from the American Embassy in Cairo, (now in the LBJ Library), which notes that the Embassy received an urgent message from Washington warning that Cairo was about to be bombed by US forces.

    An investigation led by Thomas Moorer, the former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff held the opinion that the Israeli motive was to draw the US into war against Egypt , through a false subterfuge of the same type as their King David Hotel bombing and Lavon Affair operations.

    Any rational person has to conclude that Johnson was virtually following Israeli orders, which raises the question of why? Maybe they were blackmailing him with regard to something else that was more important to him than the destruction of Cairo?

    9/11 had some of the same features as other Israeli False Flag attacks against Britain and the US, such as Israelis dressed as Arabs (framed Arabs) motivated towards tricking these countries into military action against Arab states. In fact the Israeli involvement in 9/11 was much deeper and more generalized as shown in investigative reporter Christopher Bollyn's book, "Solving 9-11: The Deception That Changed the World". https://www.amazon.com/Solving-9-11-Deception-Changed-World/dp/0985322586/ref=cm_cr-mr-title

    15 years later his account is supported in multiple ways from investigations in Florida (they didn't sneak in unseen – they were highly visible and got red carpet treatment with regard to visas etc. and they were completely incapable of flying the 9/11 airliners at the speeds and on the trajectories seen on the day + everyone who had contact with them was visited by the F.B.I. and told to shut up) - Source, a detailed and very interesting investigation by Daniel Hopsicker in "Welcome to Terrorland: Mohamed Atta and the 9/11 Cover-Up in Florida. https://www.amazon.com/Welcome-Terrorland-Mohamed-Cover-up-Florida/dp/0975290673/ref=cm_cr-mr-title

    High-rise buildings don't collapse due to fire (reason given by the US government). All high rise fire disasters have been examined in detail, with most of them much more intense than the WTC ones, and no building collapsed - let alone in 7 seconds and three on the same day.

    These Arabs didn't fly the jets and it's now clear that the buildings were taken down by placed explosives - the aim being to trick the US into an Iraq and Iran war and possibly launch an "Emergency" Neo-con regime (dictatorship) in the US led by Cheney and enforced by the Patriot Act/ Homeland security.

    The other aspect here is that a government (and media) which genuinely represented the American people would give top priority to revealing the truth about the USS Liberty and 9/11 rather than engage in the present obfuscation, blocking, threats, smears and hiding of the truth.

    We here in Ft. Meade and Langley, using our vast media assets, have successfully inoculated the public against these deviant 911 ideas. Game over .we have achieved full spectrum dominance and total information awareness throughout 99% of the planet.

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  90. Pat Casey says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 8:35 pm GMT • 300 Words @Decius The reduction of Strauss and all his concerns to TWS is not serious. Yes, Bill K loves Strauss. That really doesn't prove much about Strauss either way. I believe, though of course cannot prove since Strauss can't speak, that Strauss would have opposed the Iraq War. He would have seen it as imprudent and prudence is the supreme virtue of the statesman.

    You are sort of right about philosophy being a conspiracy, but wrong in the second half. MODERN philosophy attempts to take the conspiracy public, so to speak, to act in the real world. Ancient philosophy did not, or did so in a very limited, mitigating way, always with caution, moderation, prudence, and a lack of messianic hopes or intentions. Strauss argued his whole life for the superiority of the ancients to the moderns on this point (and on other points).

    The reduction of Strauss and all his concerns to TWS is not serious.

    That's not what I did. Don't do that. You seemed to be saying the neo-cons do not hail from the school of Strauss as this Atlas fellow said they did. I was saying they do, according to them.

    It was pretty obvious back then that the weekly standard was acting as an organ of the bush administration more than a member of the media. I remember there was even a tepid discussion about how we as journalist should feel about these fellas with one foot in the media and one foot in the politics. Does that have anything to do with the style Strauss bespoke? My understanding is that Strauss addressed his philosophy not to Princes but certain among the reading public. That turns out to first of all mean political journalists who will sacrifice the integrity of their profession for the sake of a particular kind of proud story about the USA polity and its villains. Yes I do think people like Bill Krystol and Michael Ledeen saw themselves in terms as dramatic as that.

    You are sort of right about philosophy being a conspiracy, but wrong in the second half. MODERN philosophy attempts to take the conspiracy public, so to speak, to act in the real world. Ancient philosophy did not, or did so in a very limited, mitigating way, always with caution, moderation, prudence, and a lack of messianic hopes or intentions. Strauss argued his whole life for the superiority of the ancients to the moderns on this point (and on other points).

    You mean I was right about Strauss having a conspiracy theory of philosophy. I didn't say anything about the second half. I read Paul Gottfried and I agree Strauss was a ridiculous scholar. Of course I believe you when you say in so many words that Strauss did not like philosophies that license mass movements of true believers. Full stop right there. Now we can count back from all them and make this an exercise in splitting hairs. What audience to be precise did Strauss exactly have in mind? Actually I don't think he deserves that much credit; I don't think he really knew who he was writing for.

    • Replies: @Jacques Sheete
    I don't think he really knew who he was writing for.
    Love it.

    My theory is that they basically wrote anything that came to mind so long as no one could pin 'em down to specifics, allowed them to keep paying the bills , afforded them a chance to sound "profound," and to be somebody.

    Pretty much all of the type are frauds and only fools (especially the pompous quasi-scientific, pseudo intellectual, ones) take 'em seriously. I agree that the ancients were much more honest but even they were recognized as BSers of high degree by the likes of Aristophanes and Lucian of Samosata to name only two. (I named them because they make particularly entertaining reading.)

    I think the 20th century should be known as the Age of Pathetic Charlatans and I'm glad it's over. May it and the endless gaggle of cheap morons it spawned never return. , @Decius Kristol is a Straussian because he got a PhD in PolPhil from Harvard under Mansfield, who is a Straussian. There is no necessary connection between Strauss's thought any of the main tenets of Neo-conservatism. I've said, and you've all ignored, that Strauss attacked data-driven social science, which is the original hallmark of neo-conservatism. A later hallmark (which emerged after Strauss's death) was foreign policy hawkism. Unless you want to say that Strauss's opposition to the USSR makes him a neo-con, in which case every Cold War liberal going back to Truman was a neo-con. At which point the term has no meaning.

    Strauss addresses scholars and potential philosophers. He has almost nothing to say about the transient issues of his age. Based on his comments on what other thinkers had to say about war (Thucydides above all) I believe we can infer that Strauss was generally in favor of preparedness and wariness but otherwise anti-war in the general sense. If we may analogize the Iraq War to the Sicilian Expedition we may say that Strauss probably would have opposed the former as imprudent, just as he tacitly endorses T's judgement that the latter was imprudent.

    Strauss openly characterizes Machiavelli's approach to philosophy as a conspiracy, using that word, but does not say it about any other thinker. However, his teaching that philosophy is an inherently elite and very small enterprise may be fairly characterized as a "conspiracy." however, before modernity, the nature of the conspiracy was to protect the conspirators and the philosophic life, not a reform campaign. that's what it becomes under modernity, which Strauss opposes. One of Strauss's aims in writing was to revive the ancient idea of philosophy, its proper scope, and its proper relationship to society, which he believed modernity had corrupted.

    It is unfortunate that Strauss became a bogey-man to so many who have no idea what he said or why. It happened rather recently and based on some very thin scholarship. Most of the thing people try to pin on him are things that I and my friends oppose too. We just know they don't trace to Strauss. In fact, the opposite is often true. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments


  91. Mr. Anon says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 9:19 pm GMT

    "Only a child – or its intellectual equivalent, i.e., a low information infotainment consumer – could believe in the official version of 9/11."

    That is clearly false, as plenty of people who are smart – smarter than you actually – do in fact believe just that.

    • Replies: @Miro23 Being smart has nothing to do with it.

    For example the government says that WTC7 completely collapsed in 7 seconds due to fire. You don't need to be smart to see something is wrong here (hint: most of the structural pillars were untouched by fire). , @Miro23 Or maybe a lot of smart people pretend to believe the official 9/11 story because that's where their interest lies. MSM journalists know for sure that articles that deviate from the official line on 9/11 are career ending moves .

    In simple terms, MSM owners have decided that 9/11 is a taboo subject (same as USS Liberty) and they decide what gets published. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  92. Jacques Sheete says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 9:43 pm GMT • 100 Words @Pat Casey
    The reduction of Strauss and all his concerns to TWS is not serious.
    That's not what I did. Don't do that. You seemed to be saying the neo-cons do not hail from the school of Strauss as this Atlas fellow said they did. I was saying they do, according to them.

    It was pretty obvious back then that the weekly standard was acting as an organ of the bush administration more than a member of the media. I remember there was even a tepid discussion about how we as journalist should feel about these fellas with one foot in the media and one foot in the politics. Does that have anything to do with the style Strauss bespoke? My understanding is that Strauss addressed his philosophy not to Princes but certain among the reading public. That turns out to first of all mean political journalists who will sacrifice the integrity of their profession for the sake of a particular kind of proud story about the USA polity and its villains. Yes I do think people like Bill Krystol and Michael Ledeen saw themselves in terms as dramatic as that.

    You are sort of right about philosophy being a conspiracy, but wrong in the second half. MODERN philosophy attempts to take the conspiracy public, so to speak, to act in the real world. Ancient philosophy did not, or did so in a very limited, mitigating way, always with caution, moderation, prudence, and a lack of messianic hopes or intentions. Strauss argued his whole life for the superiority of the ancients to the moderns on this point (and on other points).
    You mean I was right about Strauss having a conspiracy theory of philosophy. I didn't say anything about the second half. I read Paul Gottfried and I agree Strauss was a ridiculous scholar. Of course I believe you when you say in so many words that Strauss did not like philosophies that license mass movements of true believers. Full stop right there. Now we can count back from all them and make this an exercise in splitting hairs. What audience to be precise did Strauss exactly have in mind? Actually I don't think he deserves that much credit; I don't think he really knew who he was writing for.

    I don't think he really knew who he was writing for.

    Love it.

    My theory is that they basically wrote anything that came to mind so long as no one could pin 'em down to specifics, allowed them to keep paying the bills , afforded them a chance to sound "profound," and to be somebody.

    Pretty much all of the type are frauds and only fools (especially the pompous quasi-scientific, pseudo intellectual, ones) take 'em seriously. I agree that the ancients were much more honest but even they were recognized as BSers of high degree by the likes of Aristophanes and Lucian of Samosata to name only two. (I named them because they make particularly entertaining reading.)

    I think the 20th century should be known as the Age of Pathetic Charlatans and I'm glad it's over. May it and the endless gaggle of cheap morons it spawned never return.

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  93. Miro23 says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 9:54 pm GMT @Mr. Anon "Only a child – or its intellectual equivalent, i.e., a low information infotainment consumer – could believe in the official version of 9/11."

    That is clearly false, as plenty of people who are smart - smarter than you actually - do in fact believe just that.

    Being smart has nothing to do with it.

    For example the government says that WTC7 completely collapsed in 7 seconds due to fire. You don't need to be smart to see something is wrong here (hint: most of the structural pillars were untouched by fire).

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz I see the biggest problem about a conspiratorial explanation for the WTC 7 collapse is motive. How does it make sense for those who wanted the big splash that hitting buildings 1 and 2 would give? The other major difficulty is the video footage of fires burning all day which had to have heated the steel and therefore potentially weakened it to a critical point. Where's the mystery? , @Mr. Anon "Being smart has nothing to do with it."

    Being smart usually has everything to do with everything. But to people like you, ignorance opens up a world of possibilities, no matter how false or ludicrous they may be. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  94. Decius says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 10:12 pm GMT • 400 Words @Pat Casey
    The reduction of Strauss and all his concerns to TWS is not serious.
    That's not what I did. Don't do that. You seemed to be saying the neo-cons do not hail from the school of Strauss as this Atlas fellow said they did. I was saying they do, according to them.

    It was pretty obvious back then that the weekly standard was acting as an organ of the bush administration more than a member of the media. I remember there was even a tepid discussion about how we as journalist should feel about these fellas with one foot in the media and one foot in the politics. Does that have anything to do with the style Strauss bespoke? My understanding is that Strauss addressed his philosophy not to Princes but certain among the reading public. That turns out to first of all mean political journalists who will sacrifice the integrity of their profession for the sake of a particular kind of proud story about the USA polity and its villains. Yes I do think people like Bill Krystol and Michael Ledeen saw themselves in terms as dramatic as that.

    You are sort of right about philosophy being a conspiracy, but wrong in the second half. MODERN philosophy attempts to take the conspiracy public, so to speak, to act in the real world. Ancient philosophy did not, or did so in a very limited, mitigating way, always with caution, moderation, prudence, and a lack of messianic hopes or intentions. Strauss argued his whole life for the superiority of the ancients to the moderns on this point (and on other points).
    You mean I was right about Strauss having a conspiracy theory of philosophy. I didn't say anything about the second half. I read Paul Gottfried and I agree Strauss was a ridiculous scholar. Of course I believe you when you say in so many words that Strauss did not like philosophies that license mass movements of true believers. Full stop right there. Now we can count back from all them and make this an exercise in splitting hairs. What audience to be precise did Strauss exactly have in mind? Actually I don't think he deserves that much credit; I don't think he really knew who he was writing for.

    Kristol is a Straussian because he got a PhD in PolPhil from Harvard under Mansfield, who is a Straussian. There is no necessary connection between Strauss's thought any of the main tenets of Neo-conservatism. I've said, and you've all ignored, that Strauss attacked data-driven social science, which is the original hallmark of neo-conservatism. A later hallmark (which emerged after Strauss's death) was foreign policy hawkism. Unless you want to say that Strauss's opposition to the USSR makes him a neo-con, in which case every Cold War liberal going back to Truman was a neo-con. At which point the term has no meaning.

    Strauss addresses scholars and potential philosophers. He has almost nothing to say about the transient issues of his age. Based on his comments on what other thinkers had to say about war (Thucydides above all) I believe we can infer that Strauss was generally in favor of preparedness and wariness but otherwise anti-war in the general sense. If we may analogize the Iraq War to the Sicilian Expedition we may say that Strauss probably would have opposed the former as imprudent, just as he tacitly endorses T's judgement that the latter was imprudent.

    Strauss openly characterizes Machiavelli's approach to philosophy as a conspiracy, using that word, but does not say it about any other thinker. However, his teaching that philosophy is an inherently elite and very small enterprise may be fairly characterized as a "conspiracy." however, before modernity, the nature of the conspiracy was to protect the conspirators and the philosophic life, not a reform campaign. that's what it becomes under modernity, which Strauss opposes. One of Strauss's aims in writing was to revive the ancient idea of philosophy, its proper scope, and its proper relationship to society, which he believed modernity had corrupted.

    It is unfortunate that Strauss became a bogey-man to so many who have no idea what he said or why. It happened rather recently and based on some very thin scholarship. Most of the thing people try to pin on him are things that I and my friends oppose too. We just know they don't trace to Strauss. In fact, the opposite is often true.

    • Replies: @Pat Casey Thanks for that response, gave me a better perspective of the man. I guess he did know who he was writing for. And I do think the way to write for history is to write history by disregarding topical preoccupations, except to damn them with faint praise. I have a master like that I always go back to on the topic I care about most.

    And actually the one work of Strauss's I have picked up, years ago, is his Machiavelli; it's one of the thousands of books I've read--- not though one of the few I finished. Brushing up just now by way of wikipedia, it doesn't look like Strauss staked his claim strong enough, if an original reading is what he was writing.

    By the way, I know the Irishman John Toland was the first to publish on the esoteric-exoteric distinction, and coined the term pantheist on a related occasion when he named what new beast Spinoza had born. That was when an esoteric mode of writing was really needed, and you will hear The Ethics called esoteric or cryptic, but I know the work well, and it is no more esoteric than any work of genius that teaches you to read closely right at the start.

    Is The Prince an esoteric work? Did it entertain a conspiracy with special readers? I suppose only if Machiavelli had individuals in mind who might wonder were they all the while in mind when he was writing about how to dispose of them. The point is, there's nothing profound about observing that, it's almost common sense if you take into account the first thing about Machiavelli's circumstance.

    I won't be glib and write Strauss's method off as typically paranoid; it's creative, but bound to be too creative by half. I think it might lead readers to have more fun than's good for learning. , @Wizard of Oz Fascinating. A reminder that one should five lives lived to 120 so one can lots of stories right.... , @5371 You are right that Strauss's culpability for the neocons has been vastly exaggerated. You are wrong that he is worth reading. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  95. Miro23 says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 10:15 pm GMT • 100 Words @Mr. Anon "Only a child – or its intellectual equivalent, i.e., a low information infotainment consumer – could believe in the official version of 9/11."

    That is clearly false, as plenty of people who are smart - smarter than you actually - do in fact believe just that.

    Or maybe a lot of smart people pretend to believe the official 9/11 story because that's where their interest lies. MSM journalists know for sure that articles that deviate from the official line on 9/11 are career ending moves .

    In simple terms, MSM owners have decided that 9/11 is a taboo subject (same as USS Liberty) and they decide what gets published.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    Or maybe a lot of smart people pretend to believe the official 9/11 story because that's where their interest lies. MSM journalists know for sure that articles that deviate from the official line on 9/11 are career ending moves .

    In simple terms, MSM owners have decided that 9/11 is a taboo subject (same as USS Liberty) and they decide what gets published.

    Well, I haven't read through all of this enormously long discussion-thread, but I happened to notice this particular comment. Not having been an MSM journalist myself, I can't say whether or not it's true, but a couple of interesting, possibly coincidental, examples come to mind...

    In late July 2010, longtime Canadian journalist Eric Margolis was told his column would be dropped, and just a few weeks later he published a double-length piece expressing strong doubts about 9/11, the first time he'd articulated that position:

    http://www.unz.com/article/911-the-mother-of-all-coincidences/

    In 2007, the parent company of The Chicago Tribune announced it had accepted a leveraged-buyout takeover bid by investor Sam Zell, who planned a massive wave cost-cutting layoffs, which eventually wrecked the company. In late 2007, the Chicago Tribune suddenly ran a very long piece regarding the Liberty Attack, about the only time I've ever seen it discussed in the MSM.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.html Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  96. Konga says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 10:17 pm GMT @Miro23 The British and Americans have been the victims of conspiracies (False Flag operations) for years.

    For example:

    The Irgun bombing of the King David Hotel (headquarters of the British Mandate Government of Palestine) in which Zionist activists dressed as Arabs placed milk churns filled with explosives against the main columns of the building killing 91 people and injuring 44. Israeli prime Minister Netanyahu, attended a celebration to commemorate the event.

    Operation Susannah (Lavon Affair) where Israeli operatives impersonating Arabs bombed British and American cinemas, libraries and educational centers in Egypt to destabilize the country and keep British troops committed to the Middle East.

    Or June 8, 1967, the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty with unmarked aircraft and torpedo boats. 34 men were killed and 171 wounded, with the attack in international waters following over nine hours of close surveillance. When the ship failed to sink, the Israeli government concocted an elaborate story to cover the crime. Original plan to blame the sinking with all lives lost on the Egyptians and draw the US into the war.

    Or Israelis and U.S. Zionists appearing all over the most recent WTC 9/11 "Operation" with Israelis once again impersonating Arabs in a historic deception/terror action of a type that seems to carry a lot of kudos with old Israeli ex-terrorist Likudniks. Israeli agents were sent to film the historic day (as they later admitted on Israeli TV), with the celebrations including photos of themselves with a background of the burning towers where thousands of Americans were being incinerated.

    Iraq was destroyed as a result of 9/11 but unfortunately for the conspirators, the momentum wasn't sufficient for a general war including Iran. Also the general war would have included the nuclear angle and justified the activation of a neo-con led Emergency Regime (dictatorship) in the US enforced with the newly printed Patriot Act and Homeland Security troops - or maybe that's just another Conspiracy Theory?

    So true!
    But you forgot the two missiles shot from a NATO naval and HQ base in Spain towards Damascus, shot down by the Russians (two weeks before the "agreement" on chemical weapons, remember?) and then attributed to Israel's drills turned wrong

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  97. Decius says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 10:17 pm GMT

    A good book, BTW, is Robert Howse's Leo Strauss: Man of Peace . Howse is liberal, FWIW.

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  98. ten miles says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 10:20 pm GMT

    One resents (first), and eventually hates whom they have to lie to. In what regard would our elites, in our electoral democracy, hold us voters in (by now)?
    Kinda answers itself doesn't it?

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  99. nsa says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 10:32 pm GMT

    How could the godfather of neocon jooies have written so many great waltzes .like the angelic Blue Danube? You see how easy disinfo is for us here in Ft. Meade and Langley?

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  100. Konga says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 10:35 pm GMT @Darin If moon landings were fake, why hadn't USSR or China revealed it? This would discredit USA before the whole world and won the Cold War in one stroke.

    If USSR was also part of the plot, then whole Cold War was fake - and in this case there would be no need for the small Apollo fake.

    Sometimes, stupid conspiracy theories are just stupid conspiracy theories - or smart fakes, designed to discredit conspirational thinking and distract them from the real conspiracies. Take your pick.

    "Take your pick". I take your prick.

    Do you think anyone would care/accept/believe if USSR did "reveal" the fakery? On the contrary, it would be a point in favour of the "reality" of the landing.

    Sometimes "stupid conspiracy theories" deniers are just that: stupid deniers.

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  101. RobinG says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 10:45 pm GMT • 100 Words @Darin Another question to all conspirologists out there: what you think about Trump plant theory?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_plant_theory

    https://www.facebook.com/ClintonTrumpConspiracy

    Is Donald Trump paid by Clintons to let Hillary win? This need no big conspiracy, only Donald, Bill, Hill and few of their closest advisors would be on the plot, and it fits the character and modus operandi of the plotters. Any thoughts?

    For a while I've wondered if Hillary funded Martin O'Malley, and also Lincoln Chaffee, just to give the illusion that there was some competition, and to give her an excuse to get media exposure in the primaries.

    (Hat-tip to a friend who posits that Virginia Independent Greens are a creation of Va. Repubs. for the same reasons.)

    • Replies: @iffen just to give the illusion that there was some competition

    I think she funded Bernie as well. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  102. map says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 11:03 pm GMT • 100 Words

    Popper's point about conspiracy theories really makes no sense. This is the assumption that a conspiracy is like a start-up, one that requires lots of transparency to work because of the need to recruit members for the conspiracy. As soon as one member disagrees, the conspiracy falls apart.

    The problem is that a conspiracy is not like a start-up. The purpose of the start-up is the start-up itself. The purpose of the conspiracy is not the conspiracy itself. Conspiracies are simply vehicles by which like minded people actually find each other. The secrecy is built-in because they are like-minded.

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  103. Kirt says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 11:15 pm GMT • 100 Words @Erik Sieven "Conspiracy is simply a plan or agreement by more than one person to do something evil and then the pursuit of that plan." but probably everything think that what he does is good, not evil

    "probably everything think that what he does is good, not evil"

    Yeah, that's true. I think that it was Saint Thomas Aquinas who said that evil is always done under an aspect of good. Hence no one will consider himself a conspirator other than perhaps in a legal sense if he is aware that what he is doing is illegal. Apart from that the charge of conspiracy will always come from opponents; e.g. Hilly's charge of "a vast right-wing conspiracy".

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  104. Chuck says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 11:20 pm GMT @Darin If moon landings were fake, why hadn't USSR or China revealed it? This would discredit USA before the whole world and won the Cold War in one stroke.

    If USSR was also part of the plot, then whole Cold War was fake - and in this case there would be no need for the small Apollo fake.

    Sometimes, stupid conspiracy theories are just stupid conspiracy theories - or smart fakes, designed to discredit conspirational thinking and distract them from the real conspiracies. Take your pick.

    Why did the USSR stop at the 38th parallel upon American request?

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  105. Ron Unz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 11:27 pm GMT • 800 Words NEW! @Paul Jolliffe Mr. Unz,

    Here is a link to Carl Bernstein's definitive 1977 Rolling Stone article "CIA and the Media" in which he addresses - and confirms - your worst fears. You are very right, and no less a figure than Bernstein has said so for nearly four decades . . .

    http://www.carlbernstein.com/magazine_cia_and_media.php

    Here is a link to Carl Bernstein's definitive 1977 Rolling Stone article "CIA and the Media" in which he addresses – and confirms – your worst fears. You are very right, and no less a figure than Bernstein has said so for nearly four decades

    Thanks so much for the excellent reference to the Bernstein article, of which I hadn't been aware. I found it fascinating, not least because of all the speculations floating around over the last decade or two that Bernstein's famed collaborator, Bob Woodward, had had an intelligence background, and perhaps Watergate represented a plot by elements of the CIA to remove Nixon from the White House. As for the 25,000 word article itself, I'd suggest that people read it. Since quite a lot of this comment-thread is already filled with debates about the supposed liberalism of Leo Strauss and an alleged Moon Landing Hoax, I might as well provide a few of the provocative extracts:

    http://www.carlbernstein.com/magazine_cia_and_media.php

    He was very eager, he loved to cooperate." On one occasion, according to several CIA officials, Sulzberger was given a briefing paper by the Agency which ran almost verbatim under the columnist's byline in the Times. "Cycame out and said, 'I'm thinking of doing a piece, can you give me some background?'" a CIA officer said. "We gave it to Cy as a background piece and Cy gave it to the printers and put his name on it." Sulzberger denies that any incident occurred. "A lot of baloney," he said.

    [MORE]

    Stewart Alsop's relationship with the Agency was much more extensive than Sulzberger's. One official who served at the highest levels in the CIA said flatly: "Stew Alsop was a CIA agent." An equally senior official refused to define Alsop's relationship with the Agency except to say it was a formal one. Other sources said that Alsop was particularly helpful to the Agency in discussions with, officials of foreign governments-asking questions to which the CIA was seeking answers, planting misinformation advantageous to American policy, assessing opportunities for CIA recruitment of well‑placed foreigners.

    The New York Times. The Agency's relationship with the Times was by far its most valuable among newspapers, according to CIA officials. From 1950 to 1966, about ten CIA employees were provided Times cover under arrangements approved by the newspaper's late publisher, Arthur Hays Sulzberger. The cover arrangements were part of a general Times policy-set by Sulzberger-to provide assistance to the CIA whenever possible.

    When Newsweek waspurchased by the Washington Post Company, publisher Philip L. Graham was informed by Agency officials that the CIA occasionally used the magazine for cover purposes, according to CIA sources. "It was widely known that Phil Graham was somebody you could get help from," said a former deputy director of the Agency. "Frank Wisner dealt with him." Wisner, deputy director of the CIA from 1950 until shortly before his suicide in 1965, was the Agency's premier orchestrator of "black" operations, including many in which journalists were involved. Wisner liked to boast of his "mighty Wurlitzer," a wondrous propaganda instrument he built, and played, with help from the press.) Phil Graham was probably Wisner's closest friend. But Graharn, who committed suicide in 1963, apparently knew little of the specifics of any cover arrangements with Newsweek, CIA sources said.

    The Agency played an intriguing numbers game with the committee. Those who prepared the material say it was physically impossible to produce all of the Agency's files on the use of journalists. "We gave them a broad, representative picture," said one agency official. "We never pretended it was a total description of the range of activities over 25 years, or of the number of journalists who have done things for us." A relatively small number of the summaries described the activities of foreign journalists-including those working as stringers for American publications. Those officials most knowledgeable about the subject say that a figure of 400 American journalists is on the low side of the actual number who maintained covert relationships and undertook clandestine tasks.

    From the twenty‑five files he got back, according to Senate sources and CIA officials, an unavoidable conclusion emerged: that to a degree never widely suspected, the CIA in the 1950s, '60s and even early '70s had concentrated its relationships with journalists in the most prominent sectors of the American press corps, including four or five of the largest newspapers in the country, the broadcast networks and the two major newsweekly magazines. Despite the omission of names and affiliations from the twenty‑five detailed files each was between three and eleven inches thick), the information was usually sufficient to tentatively identify either the newsman, his affiliation or both-particularly because so many of them were prominent in the profession.

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  106. iffen says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 11:29 pm GMT @RobinG For a while I've wondered if Hillary funded Martin O'Malley, and also Lincoln Chaffee, just to give the illusion that there was some competition, and to give her an excuse to get media exposure in the primaries.

    (Hat-tip to a friend who posits that Virginia Independent Greens are a creation of Va. Repubs. for the same reasons.)

    just to give the illusion that there was some competition

    I think she funded Bernie as well.

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  107. The Alarmist says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 11:36 pm GMT • 200 Words @John Jeremiah Smith
    I suppose NASA could have sent an S-Band repeater to the Moon.
    There's more than one scenario that can be assembled to explain any one or two conditions that would have to be "covered" in order to carry out a conspiracy of deception regarding the Moon landings. Considering the inferior level of video jiggering available at the time, it seems to me that providing full "evidence" of the low-gravity behavior of objects, and the absolute two-color light/shadow effects in an absence of atmosphere would be the most difficult.

    The principle of parsimony becomes ascendant at some point in that Hall of Mirrors. It was easier to go to the Moon than it was to fake it.

    Not to be arch, but, even with the repeater on the moon, what about the bounce echo from the tight-beam signal coming from Earth carrying the deceptive info? ;-)

    I personally think they did land on the moon, but am paying devil's advocate here .

    "Not to be arch, but, even with the repeater on the moon, what about the bounce echo from the tight-beam signal coming from Earth carrying the deceptive info? "

    First, you could transvert from one range to another, so an interested party would have know where to look for the reflection. You could uplink in another range of S-Band, or go lower to L-band if you don't mind a little faraday rotation. Your link-budget would be just sufficient to get a signal from the lunar repeater to Earth, but that would most likely not be enough enough for a full round-trip of the terrestrial signal. Most of your tight beam would still pass fairly wide abeam the moon, and that which was reflected back to Earth would be further degraded by libration fading.

    How do you get Astronauts bouncing and hammers falling in Slo-Mo? Film at 60fps, replay at 30. Ah, but you have to have a really good clean-room to keep dust off the film. Maybe that is why videotape technology took off in the early seventies ;)

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
    How do you get Astronauts bouncing and hammers falling in Slo-Mo?
    Yeah, the gravity effects are a BIG job. Just slo-mo-ing won't do it, because you have different curvature of falling profile, and acceleration of gravity is different because moon-mass is less (and non-linear ref 30fps v. 60fps.)

    There would also be additive propagation delay in the radio signals. Pure delay, too -- no compensation would fix that in 1969. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  108. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  109. Pat Casey says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 5, 2016 at 11:48 pm GMT • 300 Words @Decius Kristol is a Straussian because he got a PhD in PolPhil from Harvard under Mansfield, who is a Straussian. There is no necessary connection between Strauss's thought any of the main tenets of Neo-conservatism. I've said, and you've all ignored, that Strauss attacked data-driven social science, which is the original hallmark of neo-conservatism. A later hallmark (which emerged after Strauss's death) was foreign policy hawkism. Unless you want to say that Strauss's opposition to the USSR makes him a neo-con, in which case every Cold War liberal going back to Truman was a neo-con. At which point the term has no meaning.

    Strauss addresses scholars and potential philosophers. He has almost nothing to say about the transient issues of his age. Based on his comments on what other thinkers had to say about war (Thucydides above all) I believe we can infer that Strauss was generally in favor of preparedness and wariness but otherwise anti-war in the general sense. If we may analogize the Iraq War to the Sicilian Expedition we may say that Strauss probably would have opposed the former as imprudent, just as he tacitly endorses T's judgement that the latter was imprudent.

    Strauss openly characterizes Machiavelli's approach to philosophy as a conspiracy, using that word, but does not say it about any other thinker. However, his teaching that philosophy is an inherently elite and very small enterprise may be fairly characterized as a "conspiracy." however, before modernity, the nature of the conspiracy was to protect the conspirators and the philosophic life, not a reform campaign. that's what it becomes under modernity, which Strauss opposes. One of Strauss's aims in writing was to revive the ancient idea of philosophy, its proper scope, and its proper relationship to society, which he believed modernity had corrupted.

    It is unfortunate that Strauss became a bogey-man to so many who have no idea what he said or why. It happened rather recently and based on some very thin scholarship. Most of the thing people try to pin on him are things that I and my friends oppose too. We just know they don't trace to Strauss. In fact, the opposite is often true.

    Thanks for that response, gave me a better perspective of the man. I guess he did know who he was writing for. And I do think the way to write for history is to write history by disregarding topical preoccupations, except to damn them with faint praise. I have a master like that I always go back to on the topic I care about most.

    And actually the one work of Strauss's I have picked up, years ago, is his Machiavelli; it's one of the thousands of books I've read- not though one of the few I finished. Brushing up just now by way of wikipedia, it doesn't look like Strauss staked his claim strong enough, if an original reading is what he was writing.

    By the way, I know the Irishman John Toland was the first to publish on the esoteric-exoteric distinction, and coined the term pantheist on a related occasion when he named what new beast Spinoza had born. That was when an esoteric mode of writing was really needed, and you will hear The Ethics called esoteric or cryptic, but I know the work well, and it is no more esoteric than any work of genius that teaches you to read closely right at the start.

    Is The Prince an esoteric work? Did it entertain a conspiracy with special readers? I suppose only if Machiavelli had individuals in mind who might wonder were they all the while in mind when he was writing about how to dispose of them. The point is, there's nothing profound about observing that, it's almost common sense if you take into account the first thing about Machiavelli's circumstance.

    I won't be glib and write Strauss's method off as typically paranoid; it's creative, but bound to be too creative by half. I think it might lead readers to have more fun than's good for learning.

    • Replies: @Decius First, if you are at all interested in esotericism, I cannot recommend highly enough Philosophy Between the Lines by Meltzer. The only thing critical I can say about this book is that, if one is really an expert in one of the thinkers that Meltzer treats, one will read the passages on that thinker that Meltzer cites and say "So what? I've known that for years. He's shed no new light." Which is true. But irrelevant to what he's trying to do. The book presents an unassailable case that philosophy has been esoteric since Plato. Esotericism long predates Spinoza and has been discussed since ancient times. Strauss simply revived a concept that had been forgotten. Toland (who I am not that familiar with) wrote before esotericism as it were "lapsed." Strauss says that Goethe and Lessing were the last to write this way. When Strauss revived knowledge of esotericism in the late 1930s with the first Xenophon article, he was considered nuts.

    Strauss's Machiavelli book is my favorite and I think his best. It is totally "original" in the sense that he took a wildly new path from all previous scholarship. It has basically defined the debate to this day. All subsequent scholarship either follows him, opposes him, or tries to ignore him.

    I would recommend in addition Strauss's book on Spinoza and especially the much later preface that he wrote when he felt he finally understood Spinoza's esotericism.

    Yes, the Prince (and the Discourses , and Art of War , and Florentine Histories ) are esoteric. It's too complex to argue in a comment thread. Suffice it to say for now that the outrageous "kill that dude" teachings serve and exoteric purpose. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  110. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 12:11 am GMT • 100 Words @Miro23 [Sorry, long reply]

    The basic fact about the USS Liberty is that an American navy ship was attacked with the aim of sinking it, which is an Act of War since the ship was clearly marked.

    In contrast, the attacking Israeli jets and torpedo boats were unmarked (i.e. they wanted to hide their identity), so a question is why were they unmarked if this was a standard military interception?

    Whether the Israelis wanted to trigger a US attack on Egypt or hide their communications with regard to their attack on Syria is a secondary question. The main concern of the United States surely had to be to rescue their seamen and respond to the aggression.

    And, this is where the story turns really nasty.

    At least two rescue attempts were launched from US aircraft carriers nearby, but after the (obligatory) communication to Washington, both rescue flights were cancelled within minutes on direct orders of Secretary of Defence, Robert McNamara (source: 6th Fleet Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis speaking in confidence to the senior Liberty survivor, Naval Security Group officer, Lieutenant Commander David Lewis in a meeting requested by Geis).

    Surviving personnel all received strict orders not say anything to anyone about the attack.

    Eyewitness accounts say that 4 nuclear armed aircraft were simultaneously launched from the aircraft carrier America on the instructions of President Johnson only to be recalled when, presumably, the information came through that the Israelis had not succeeded in sinking the Liberty. Nuclear weapons were not needed to defend the Liberty.

    Also there was an oral history report from the American Embassy in Cairo, (now in the LBJ Library), which notes that the Embassy received an urgent message from Washington warning that Cairo was about to be bombed by US forces.

    An investigation led by Thomas Moorer, the former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff held the opinion that the Israeli motive was to draw the US into war against Egypt , through a false subterfuge of the same type as their King David Hotel bombing and Lavon Affair operations.

    Any rational person has to conclude that Johnson was virtually following Israeli orders, which raises the question of why? Maybe they were blackmailing him with regard to something else that was more important to him than the destruction of Cairo?

    9/11 had some of the same features as other Israeli False Flag attacks against Britain and the US, such as Israelis dressed as Arabs (framed Arabs) motivated towards tricking these countries into military action against Arab states. In fact the Israeli involvement in 9/11 was much deeper and more generalized as shown in investigative reporter Christopher Bollyn's book, "Solving 9-11: The Deception That Changed the World". https://www.amazon.com/Solving-9-11-Deception-Changed-World/dp/0985322586/ref=cm_cr-mr-title

    15 years later his account is supported in multiple ways from investigations in Florida (they didn't sneak in unseen – they were highly visible and got red carpet treatment with regard to visas etc. and they were completely incapable of flying the 9/11 airliners at the speeds and on the trajectories seen on the day + everyone who had contact with them was visited by the F.B.I. and told to shut up) - Source, a detailed and very interesting investigation by Daniel Hopsicker in "Welcome to Terrorland: Mohamed Atta and the 9/11 Cover-Up in Florida. https://www.amazon.com/Welcome-Terrorland-Mohamed-Cover-up-Florida/dp/0975290673/ref=cm_cr-mr-title

    High-rise buildings don't collapse due to fire (reason given by the US government). All high rise fire disasters have been examined in detail, with most of them much more intense than the WTC ones, and no building collapsed - let alone in 7 seconds and three on the same day.

    These Arabs didn't fly the jets and it's now clear that the buildings were taken down by placed explosives - the aim being to trick the US into an Iraq and Iran war and possibly launch an "Emergency" Neo-con regime (dictatorship) in the US led by Cheney and enforced by the Patriot Act/ Homeland security.

    The other aspect here is that a government (and media) which genuinely represented the American people would give top priority to revealing the truth about the USS Liberty and 9/11 rather than engage in the present obfuscation, blocking, threats, smears and hiding of the truth.

    Thanks. I wonder what will happen to Israel's support if and when serious money and research and publicity is put into telling the whole Liberty story and making sure it is drummed in.

    Your 9/11 version I don't buy, not least because someone suicidal/murderous had to be controlling the planes.

    • Replies: @CalDre Your 9/11 version I don't buy, not least because someone suicidal/murderous had to be controlling the planes.

    Controlling, yes; but on-board, no. "Coincidentally", all of the planes hijacked on 9/11 were Boeing 767s, which have a sophisticated auto-pilot system and the ability to upload custom modules to control the auto-pilot. Just like a Predator or Reaper drone can be flown from halfway across the planet, a 767 can be flown remotely (and in the case of 9/11, since everything was known in advance, the entire flight pattern could have been pre-programmed into a module and uploaded in to the aircrafts' computers).

    If you look into it you will find reports of a a "mystery" large white jet flying over Washington on the morning of 9/11. Some have identified it as a E-4B (a Boeing E-4 Advanced Airborne Command Post), a strategic command and control military aircraft operated by the United States Air Force. We know neither Bush nor Cheney was on that plane.

    While perhaps not necessary, the cockpit could have been filled with a tranquilizing gas to incapacitate all the pilots and (stooge) hijackers so that they would not interfere with the remote-controlled operation of the planes.

    Remember that these "deeply religious" Muslim "hijackers" went out drinking at a strip club the night of 9/10. Both are deep sins in Islam, not something someone is going to do when they are about to meet their Maker. Most likely they thought they were participating in a drill (since, in fact on the date of 9/11, a drill was taking place, having to do with - wait for it - airplanes being hijacked and flown into buildings).

    The precision and extreme competence of the flying maneuvers is readily explained by the auto-pilot feature. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  111. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 12:15 am GMT @Decius Kristol is a Straussian because he got a PhD in PolPhil from Harvard under Mansfield, who is a Straussian. There is no necessary connection between Strauss's thought any of the main tenets of Neo-conservatism. I've said, and you've all ignored, that Strauss attacked data-driven social science, which is the original hallmark of neo-conservatism. A later hallmark (which emerged after Strauss's death) was foreign policy hawkism. Unless you want to say that Strauss's opposition to the USSR makes him a neo-con, in which case every Cold War liberal going back to Truman was a neo-con. At which point the term has no meaning.

    Strauss addresses scholars and potential philosophers. He has almost nothing to say about the transient issues of his age. Based on his comments on what other thinkers had to say about war (Thucydides above all) I believe we can infer that Strauss was generally in favor of preparedness and wariness but otherwise anti-war in the general sense. If we may analogize the Iraq War to the Sicilian Expedition we may say that Strauss probably would have opposed the former as imprudent, just as he tacitly endorses T's judgement that the latter was imprudent.

    Strauss openly characterizes Machiavelli's approach to philosophy as a conspiracy, using that word, but does not say it about any other thinker. However, his teaching that philosophy is an inherently elite and very small enterprise may be fairly characterized as a "conspiracy." however, before modernity, the nature of the conspiracy was to protect the conspirators and the philosophic life, not a reform campaign. that's what it becomes under modernity, which Strauss opposes. One of Strauss's aims in writing was to revive the ancient idea of philosophy, its proper scope, and its proper relationship to society, which he believed modernity had corrupted.

    It is unfortunate that Strauss became a bogey-man to so many who have no idea what he said or why. It happened rather recently and based on some very thin scholarship. Most of the thing people try to pin on him are things that I and my friends oppose too. We just know they don't trace to Strauss. In fact, the opposite is often true.

    Fascinating. A reminder that one should five lives lived to 120 so one can lots of stories right .

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz Oops! Sorry but I'm sure the typis were obvious. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  112. whorefinder says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 12:50 am GMT • 200 Words

    No Oswald Hypothesis Denier has ever presented a falsifiable alternative hypothesis to Kennedy's murder.

    The Oswald Hypothesis-as subtly admitted by Oliver Stone-passed the who, what, when, where, why, and how test. It answered all the questions and was plausible according to physics, motive, means, and opportunity. The Deniers try things like "the pristine bullet" and "magic bullet" nonsense, but those criticisms don't stand up to criticism (for example, the bullet was not pristine at all, and the bullet's tragectory was not magic at all, but followed a predictable downward path through the elevated Kennedy to Connolly).

    But more tellingly-no alternative plausible falsifiable hypothesis has been offered. No who, what, when, where , why, and how. Lots of speculation and casting aspersions (LBJ! CIA! ), but no one offers a concrete hypothesis that could be tested or researched to see as plausible.

    If you have a falsifiable alternative theory to the Oswald Hypothesis that satisfies the five w's and h, please offer it here. Until you do so, the only plausible hypothesis is that Oswald acted alone.

    It's been more than 50 years people. Give us something besides that some people disliked Kennedy (all politicians have enemies) and "eye witnesses" who keep changing their stories.

    *Oh, and the KGB worked to spread Kennedy Conspiracy theories because they undermined faith in the U.S. government and took the heat off communists for the killing. They funded some of the conspiracy theorists and promoted them.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy Hey Whorefinder, are you one of Cass Sunstein's boys , by any chance. , @Wizard of Oz I ask only because you may have the JFK assassination stuff well organised in your head and up to date. What do you make of the update by Colin McLaren on the humanly plausible conspiracy theory that the bullet which killed Kennedy was fired accidentally by a Secret Service man standing in the car behind? Are there any knock down arguments against it? Or big holes? , @Robbie Oswald never fired a shot! A hidden witness for over 35 years had proof positive that Oswald was never on the sixth floor, and therefore couldn't be a shooter. Barry Ernest has found Victoria Adams, a witness to Kennedy's murder, on the fourth floor back staircase of the TSBD. She testified to the Warren Commission that she and her co-worker, Sandra Styles saw nobody come down the stairs, after she heard the final shots. Also with them was her supervisor, Dorothy Garner, making three witnesses (or non-witnesses in this case) that totally destroy the lone nut idea that Oswald was doing any shooting there. Adams was badgered and she felt threatened by the Warren Commission and fearing for her life, vanished for decades until Barry Ernest found her.

    So, that ends and totally disproves for all time the formerly plausible hypothesis (theory) that Oswald killed Kennedy.

    The Girl on the Stairs: The Search for a Missing Witness to the JFK Assassination by Barry Ernest (hardcover) April 2, 2013
    https://www.amazon.com/Girl-Stairs-Missing-Witness-Assassination/dp/1455617830

    http://garyrevel.com/jfk/girlonstairs.html
    "The Bob Wilson Interview with Author Barry Ernest 'The Girl on the Stairs: The Search for a Missing Witness to the JFK Assassination' "
    Feb. 18, 2014 (New York, NY)

    #7

    "There is no evidence that definitively places Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom as the shots were being fired. If you believe what Oswald is quoted as telling police during his interrogation sessions (12 hours that went unrecorded and without a stenographer being present), he was eating his lunch in the first-floor domino room when the shots occurred, and then went to the second floor to purchase a drink. This is perhaps why Vicki Adams did not see him on the stairs, why he was so calm during the lunchroom confrontation, and why [Officer Marrion] Baker first described Oswald as entering the lunchroom from a direction other than the back staircase. Certainly Vicki Adams saying she was on the stairs during this critical period presented an obvious problem to the Warren Commission's scenario, which might explain why she was the only person excluded from time tests regarding Oswald's escape, and why corroborating witnesses to her story were ignored."


    #13

    "Lee Harvey Oswald was labeled as a loner, and malcontent. From what you have learned of him, can you describe a bit about who he seems to have actually been?

    He was definitely an odd fellow. But he was also smart, capable, for instance, of beating others more advanced than he was at chess and, if you believe the official record, able to teach himself Russian, one of the most challenging languages to learn, especially on your own. He liked the opera and was a vociferous reader, knowledgeable in a lot of subjects. His actions in both his military and civilian lives seem consistent with someone having a far deeper complexity than what we have been told. Oh, and he was also a rather poor shot!"


    As for the pejorative term conspiracy theory , that was conjured up by the CIA in 1964, to counter the growing threat to the insiders' desire to promote the sole assassin idea, discredit doubters, and shut off debate. https://projectunspeakable.com/conspiracy-theory-invention-of-cia and http://www.jfklancer.com/CIA.html


    https://www.amazon.com/dp/0292757697

    "In 2013 Professor Lance Dehaven-Smith in a peer-reviewed book published by the University of Texas Press showed that the term "conspiracy theory" was developed by the CIA as a means of undercutting critics of the Warren Commission's report that President Kennedy was killed by Oswald. The use of this term was heavily promoted in the media by the CIA.

    It is ironic that the American left is a major enforcer of the CIA's strategy to shut up skeptics by branding them conspiracy theorists."

    The public has never believed the official story that Oswald acted alone ever since the first Gallup Poll was taken in early Dec. 1963, and continuing to this very day.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/165893/majority-believe-jfk-killed-conspiracy.aspx
    "Majority in U.S. Still Believe JFK Killed in a Conspiracy" by Art Swift (Nov. 15, 2013)

    Dec. 1963: 52% Conspiracy, 29% One man
    1976: 81% Conspiracy, 11% One man
    1983: 74% Conspiracy, 11% One man
    1992: 77% Conspiracy, 10% One man
    2001: 81% Conspiracy, 13% One man
    2003: 75% Conspiracy, 19% One man
    2013: 61% Conspiracy, 30% One man

    http://22november1963.org.uk/lee-harvey-oswald-marksman-sharpshooter

    "...According to his Marine score card (Commission Exhibit 239), Oswald was tested twice:

    In December 1956, after "a very intensive 3 weeks' training period" (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.11, p.302), Oswald scored 212: two marks above the minimum for a 'sharpshooter'.

    In May 1959, he scored 191: one mark above the minimum for a 'marksman'.

    "...Colonel Allison Folsom interpreted the results for the Warren Commission:
    "The Marine Corps consider that any reasonable application of the instructions given to Marines should permit them to become qualified at least as a marksman. To become qualified as a sharpshooter, the Marine Corps is of the opinion that most Marines with a reasonable amount of adaptability to weapons firing can become so qualified. Consequently, a low marksman qualification indicates a rather poor "shot" and a sharpshooter qualification indicates a fairly good "shot".(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.19, pp.17f)

    Folsom agreed with his (not her) questioner that Oswald "was not a particularly outstanding shot" (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.8, p.311)."


    Phlilip F. Nelson's hardcover 2011 book, a fascinating insight into LBJ's warped and sociopathic (also suffering from bi-polar disorder) personality hidden from the public, 1960-2011,

    LBJ: The Mastermind of the JFK Assassination
    https://www.amazon.com/LBJ-Mastermind-Assassination-Phillip-Nelson/dp/1616083778

    His 2013 paperback update:
    https://www.amazon.com/LBJ-Mastermind-Assassination-Phillip-Nelson/dp/1620876108 Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  113. Bill Jones says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 1:04 am GMT @Gene Tuttle I've often used the argument myself that conspiracies inevitably have short shelf lives in the US because it was so difficult for Americans to keep secrets. The article makes a useful point in suggesting that secret plots, even after being revealed, may nevertheless remain widely ignored. Ideology, group-think, pack journalism etc. are powerful forces, often subconsciously at work, preventing alternative theories from developing legs.

    Though long an admirer of Karl Popper, I hadn't strongly associated him with attacks on conspiracy theories per se. As an American "outsider" living abroad most of my adult life, I've all too often encountered those who assumed my background alone explained an argument of mine that they didn't like. Popper had hit the nail on the head when he wrote about

    "a widespread and dangerous fashion of our time...of not taking arguments seriously, and at their face value, at least tentatively, but of seeing in them nothing but a way in which deeper irrational motives and tendencies express themselves." It was "the attitude of looking at once for the unconscious motives and determinants in the social habitat of the thinker, instead of first examining the validity of the argument itself."
    The powerful nazi and communist ideologies of his day assumed that one's " blood " or " class " precluded "correct" thinking. Those politically incorrect challengers to their own totalitarian weltanschauung were (to put it mildly) persecuted as conspirators. No doubt, as Ron Unz notes, Popper's personal experience "contributed the depth of his feelings" -- I would say skepticism – about conspiracy claims.

    But the author of the " Open Society " had an open mind and I suspect he'd find the thesis reasonable that real conspiracies can both be uncovered and largely ignored because so many simply opt to ignore them. In such cases, evidence and "not taking arguments seriously" often reflects "intellectual groupieism," emotions, professional insecurities as well as venal collective interests.

    Nice try.

    The Manhattan Project was successfully kept secret despite its scope and the fact that it consumed 17% of the electricity production of the entire US.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz So, there is a counter example - an exception???

    Actually not such a good case. It was wartime in a pre Internet era and keeping their mouths shut was emphasised as a patriotic duty for everyone. The work was carried out at remote locations with vast resources behind it. The work was so new and esoteric that the best outsiders might have managed was that something was going on that they didn't understand. And of course it wasn't kept secret from our Soviet allies thanks to their spies. , @Gene Tuttle I did not say it was impossible for Americans to keep secrets, just "difficult."

    The Manhattan Project was in a bygone era -- one in which near total war prevailed. Yet even in that case, the Soviets knew early on what was going on. And stories appeared in the US press early on posing prying questions about Los Alamos, a "forbidden city" where there were reports of "ordnance and explosives" being developed and "tremendous explosions have been heard."
    http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/1944-Cleveland-Press-Forbidden-City.pdf

    Main point however, is that even when conspiracies become obvious they are often largely ignored. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  114. exiled off mainstreet says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 1:14 am GMT @Miro23 The British and Americans have been the victims of conspiracies (False Flag operations) for years.

    For example:

    The Irgun bombing of the King David Hotel (headquarters of the British Mandate Government of Palestine) in which Zionist activists dressed as Arabs placed milk churns filled with explosives against the main columns of the building killing 91 people and injuring 44. Israeli prime Minister Netanyahu, attended a celebration to commemorate the event.

    Operation Susannah (Lavon Affair) where Israeli operatives impersonating Arabs bombed British and American cinemas, libraries and educational centers in Egypt to destabilize the country and keep British troops committed to the Middle East.

    Or June 8, 1967, the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty with unmarked aircraft and torpedo boats. 34 men were killed and 171 wounded, with the attack in international waters following over nine hours of close surveillance. When the ship failed to sink, the Israeli government concocted an elaborate story to cover the crime. Original plan to blame the sinking with all lives lost on the Egyptians and draw the US into the war.

    Or Israelis and U.S. Zionists appearing all over the most recent WTC 9/11 "Operation" with Israelis once again impersonating Arabs in a historic deception/terror action of a type that seems to carry a lot of kudos with old Israeli ex-terrorist Likudniks. Israeli agents were sent to film the historic day (as they later admitted on Israeli TV), with the celebrations including photos of themselves with a background of the burning towers where thousands of Americans were being incinerated.

    Iraq was destroyed as a result of 9/11 but unfortunately for the conspirators, the momentum wasn't sufficient for a general war including Iran. Also the general war would have included the nuclear angle and justified the activation of a neo-con led Emergency Regime (dictatorship) in the US enforced with the newly printed Patriot Act and Homeland Security troops - or maybe that's just another Conspiracy Theory?

    The Israelis learned their false flag lesson from the Nazis, who used concentration camp inmates dressed as Polish soldiers as part of a phony attack on the frontier radio station "Sender Gleiwitz" a day or so before they invaded Poland.

    • Replies: @anonymous If Nazis didn't exist zionists would have to invent them -- or maybe they did. Nuland's use of Nazis in Ukraine is sure making it look more and more likely that Hitler was an Osama bin-Laden like creation of Jews and/or the Roosevelt admin.

    1. The British were past masters of all sorts of dirty tricks. Moshe Dayan learned about house demolitions from the British when they were in charge of Mandate Palestine -- pre-1939. http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.657167

    2. Jews in Poland were active participants in killing fellow Poles; from the late 1920s into the mid-1930s Jews in Soviet participated in serious numbers in Stalin's slaughter of several million Russians, Ukrainians, Poles. Some of the killed were Jewish. They didn't need Germans to teach them how to kill on a mass scale, Trotsky, Lenin & Stalin were able tutors.

    3. By early in 1938 The Haganeh had created Mossad al Aliyeh-bet -- zionists planted in Germany and other European cities to shepherd Jews out of their home countries and into Palestine. Francis Nicosia writes about it in Zionism and Anti-Semitism in Nazi Germany , @LondonBob Not forgetting the Manchurian Incident, staging events to justify a war is nothing new. , @Hippopotamusdrome There is a conspiracy theory that it was really Poles. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  115. Bill Jones says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 1:15 am GMT @Dave37 Maybe the CIA used conspiracy theory but ordinary perverse humans invented it. If moon lander deniers (and other conspiracies) were proven wrong the rest of us would be happy to see them in public stocks and a ready supply of tomatoes.

    So no freedom of speech in your little world then.

    • Replies: @Dave37 Sure, if I can have some revenge for annoying AHs. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  116. exiled off mainstreet says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 1:44 am GMT • 200 Words @Darin Yes, why?

    If you want to start a war, would you want to start with great defeat and loss of your fleet?

    In the thirties, there were three cases of false flag attacks created to justify a war.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukden_Incident
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila

    In none of these cases the attacker actually killed thousands of his own soldiers, what would be the point?

    I didn't notice Gleiwitz was mentioned in another posting before I mentioned it. I tend go along with you and suspect incompetence rather than purpose was the cause of the Pearl Harbor disaster, though the incompetence may have included failure to adequately warn those on the ground at Pearl Harbor. Personally, I don't back the "truther" version of the twin towers because that would have required a broader conspiracy than I think could have succeeded. My guess is that the neighboring building was destroyed as part of the cleanup effort. I do think, however, that the authorities knew something was up, didn't believe it could ever succeed and used it as a sort of Reichstag Fire incident to brush aside constitutional democracy in the US. I also suspect that the Mossad knew more than they let on. My guess is that if Gore rather than Bush had been in power that history would have been far different. I suspect that the anthrax thing was more likely started by the yankee regime as a home-grown conspiracy.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    My guess is that if Gore rather than Bush had been in power that history would have been far different.
    Joe Lieberman was Gore's running mate.
    Lieberman had the Patriot Act on a shelf waiting for an opportunity ---
    While holding the chair of the "Senate Committee on Governmental Affairs," Lieberman introduced on October 11, 2001, Senate Bill 1534, to establish the US Department of Homeland Security.

    Anticipating the bill's certain passage, Lieberman gave himself automatic chairmanship after he changed the name of his committee to, "The Senate Committee of Homeland Security and Government Affairs."

    Since then, Lieberman has been the main force behind legislation such as:
    -1- The USA Patriot Act
    -2- Protect America Act
    -3- National Emergency Centers Establishment Act
    -4- The Enemy Belligerent Interrogation Act
    -5- The Terrorist Expatriation Act, and the proposed
    -6- Protecting Cyberspace as a National Asset Act.

    , @dahoit Gore chose a likudnik as VP.Anyone thinks the response to 9-11 would have significantly different under those 2 needs further education.
    I notice the Wiz always deflects Israeli involvement.Of course they were aware,the dancing Israelis knew it was a terror attack by dancing before the 2nd plane hit.
    And what govt has been the only beneficiary of 9-11?
    If one can't see that answer,they have been ziocained and lobotomized. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  117. biz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 1:48 am GMT • 100 Words @landlubber
    journalistic and sociological works
    Pravda.

    And like your Pravda brethren, you are too quick to conflate 9/11 and the moon landings.

    you are too quick to conflate 9/11 and the moon landings

    Actually, it was Unz himself who stated a while back that if we admit that one of them is possible, then all are possible, or something more or less to that effect.

    In an case, the 9/11 controlled demolition / missile / flight 93 is in a hangar in Cleveland stuff is just as implausible as faking the moon landings. Too many people and organizations and countries needing to be in on it, etc.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy biz, you obviously missed it. Bill Jones, above , debunked your argument even before you made it. , @AnonCrimethink2016 Conflating the two is indeed absurd. Regarding 9/11, the government's own conspiracy theory, that the twin towers were demolished by office fires started by the two planes (not to mention Building 7, which fell without being struck by a plane later that day) does not hold up under any real scrutiny; any child with a decent high school education in chemistry and physics can see that those buildings did not and could not have collapsed due to the official explanation, but rather, they fell due to a prepared demolition. While it is not, and may never be clear exactly who was behind the event, the fact that key aspects of the government's narrative are demonstrably false, and many others unsupported by independent evidence, should give any thinking person considerable pause for thought about the events of that day, and all that has inexorably followed in U.S. foreign policy to this very day. It is a technique of distraction frequently used by supporters of the official conspiracy theory to raise all kinds of broad questions about "How could such a vast conspiracy ever be kept?" etc. (Well, look at the Manhattan Project for starters...) rather than engaging in the particulars of physical evidence and reliable eye witness accounts that attest to the utter nonsense of the lie we've been sold lo these many years. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  118. Decius says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 1:51 am GMT • 300 Words @Pat Casey Thanks for that response, gave me a better perspective of the man. I guess he did know who he was writing for. And I do think the way to write for history is to write history by disregarding topical preoccupations, except to damn them with faint praise. I have a master like that I always go back to on the topic I care about most.

    And actually the one work of Strauss's I have picked up, years ago, is his Machiavelli; it's one of the thousands of books I've read--- not though one of the few I finished. Brushing up just now by way of wikipedia, it doesn't look like Strauss staked his claim strong enough, if an original reading is what he was writing.

    By the way, I know the Irishman John Toland was the first to publish on the esoteric-exoteric distinction, and coined the term pantheist on a related occasion when he named what new beast Spinoza had born. That was when an esoteric mode of writing was really needed, and you will hear The Ethics called esoteric or cryptic, but I know the work well, and it is no more esoteric than any work of genius that teaches you to read closely right at the start.

    Is The Prince an esoteric work? Did it entertain a conspiracy with special readers? I suppose only if Machiavelli had individuals in mind who might wonder were they all the while in mind when he was writing about how to dispose of them. The point is, there's nothing profound about observing that, it's almost common sense if you take into account the first thing about Machiavelli's circumstance.

    I won't be glib and write Strauss's method off as typically paranoid; it's creative, but bound to be too creative by half. I think it might lead readers to have more fun than's good for learning.

    First, if you are at all interested in esotericism, I cannot recommend highly enough Philosophy Between the Lines by Meltzer. The only thing critical I can say about this book is that, if one is really an expert in one of the thinkers that Meltzer treats, one will read the passages on that thinker that Meltzer cites and say "So what? I've known that for years. He's shed no new light." Which is true. But irrelevant to what he's trying to do. The book presents an unassailable case that philosophy has been esoteric since Plato. Esotericism long predates Spinoza and has been discussed since ancient times. Strauss simply revived a concept that had been forgotten. Toland (who I am not that familiar with) wrote before esotericism as it were "lapsed." Strauss says that Goethe and Lessing were the last to write this way. When Strauss revived knowledge of esotericism in the late 1930s with the first Xenophon article, he was considered nuts.

    Strauss's Machiavelli book is my favorite and I think his best. It is totally "original" in the sense that he took a wildly new path from all previous scholarship. It has basically defined the debate to this day. All subsequent scholarship either follows him, opposes him, or tries to ignore him.

    I would recommend in addition Strauss's book on Spinoza and especially the much later preface that he wrote when he felt he finally understood Spinoza's esotericism.

    Yes, the Prince (and the Discourses , and Art of War , and Florentine Histories ) are esoteric. It's too complex to argue in a comment thread. Suffice it to say for now that the outrageous "kill that dude" teachings serve and exoteric purpose.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    Strauss's Machiavelli book is my favorite and I think his best. It is totally "original" in the sense that he took a wildly new path from all previous scholarship. It has basically defined the debate to this day. All subsequent scholarship either follows him, opposes him, or tries to ignore him.
    Nonsense.

    Maurizio Viroli has dedicated his life to scholarship on Machiavelli. He reads and understands The Prince (and Machiavelli's other works and life) in the context in which they were written, taking account of the finest details of Machiavelli's human, psychological, and spiritual evolution in the course of career and writing. Viroli walks in Niccolo's footsteps; like Machiavelli, he "puts on the garments" of 15th century Florence, and Rome, and the French and Germanic cities where Machiavelli traveled to represent Florence.

    Strauss may satisfy those inclined to engage in exercise in Talmudic argument, but Machiavelli was Italian, Florentine, and Roman; Dante was his constant companion; he was also conversant in Old and New Testament literature and, less extensively, with the relatively newly rediscovered Greek philosophers.

    Strauss does not understand Machiavelli's thoughts on religion because he fails to separate Niccolo's Christian, Danteian spirituality from his disgust with the corruption of the Roman Catholic papacy and institutional church.

    If you want intellectual showmanship and hair-splitting, Strauss on Machiavelli's your man. If you want to understand the soul of Niccolo Machiavelli and the complexities of political life in the Florence, Italy he lived in and loved, you can't do better than Maurizio Viroli.

    Machiavelli and Republicanism
    http://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/history/history-ideas-and-intellectual-history/machiavelli-and-republicanism?format=PB

    Redeeming the Prince
    http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/681223

    For Love of Country: An Essay on Patriotism and Nationalism
    http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0198293585.001.0001/acprof-9780198293583

    (Strauss twists Machiavelli's love of country into an evil act because it is not universal. Yet, as one reviewer noted of Strauss, "I would make the case that the best defense of Strauss lies in an understanding of Aristotle and Israel." https://www.amazon.com/German-Stranger-Strauss-National-Socialism/dp/0739147382 ) , @Pat Casey Steve weighed in on this a while back and made the point that what we have, what has been handed down to us, that probably is the esoteric stuff. I don't think he even mentioned in the piece how interesting it is that what we have of Aristotle seem to be lecture notes. I suspect that is just because: Aristotle taught Alexander---the teacher knew no felt need to live on as a writer like Plato did. One thing we can say about those lecture notes, we can pretty well imagine they were not written in his prime, hence we're still learning how much good stuff is there; if you know your stuff, you know as late as the late Richard Taylor that the philosopher was yet outdoing us moderns in a point he makes like an afterthought but could not matter more. But so anyways, what we have is the distilled Aristotle probably from his golden years; if we also had it in any other form, it might read comparatively mercilessly for being too esoteric. As we know him it is impossible to imagine Aristotle writing dialogues, debating other voices ; one need not name rivals when one has none and he was the King's philosopher. What you can't say is no he was being disorganized on purpose to be esoteric, right?

    But take Plato. I assume if you could read ancient Greek as well as Plato could, you would find many a double meaning at crucial turns but I really have no idea save the gut instinct that the man was an inspired writer when he wrote which is to say a poet. And what a poet does is let the muse speak and summon such nice lines as "The Beauty is not the Madness/ Though my errors and wrecks lie about me/and I am not a demigod, I cannot make it cohere." The errors that lie about him strewn about him as it were, they lie about how good he was when he was at his best. A tongue like a double-bladed sword says the Bible. I imagine some of Ezra Pound's radio rants need a second listen with less tense nerves; they say the Italians suspected he was transmitting code. Anyways. Imagine how much can be said for the stories we tell ourselves....how many former selves does any one wind up with? you have to ask your self.

    Scholasticism, well you could almost say that's all about no secret handshake shit. Make sure them key words get nailed down and no tricks or to the tower you got cause to go.

    Spinoza, oh we know exactly where his mystery lies. Edwin Curley said:

    "In responding to this objection, I think I had best begin by confessing candidly that in spite of many years of study, I still do not feel that I understand this part of the Ethics at all adequately. I feel the freedom to confess that, of course, because I also believe that no one else understands it adequately either"
    What objection? The one that says, nothing of the mind should remain eternal after the body has been destroyed if there is only one substance! We could have gone to grad school on this paper is what the man said, but first pay respects to what that meant to him personally, cause he probably escaped with his life when he did, but he knew his disciples would keep his mind alive. But seriously I should touch this up and send it somewhere:
    It must be said that the elegance of this deduction is striking. God's idea of the human body corresponds with the mind's idea of the human body. The crucial move that turns the correspondence into a startling claim is that God's idea expresses the essence of the body, while the mind's idea expresses the essence of the mind. Through the initial correspondence, God's eternal essence expressed as an idea of the body adopts the essence of the mind. Thus, when the body dies, something of the essence of the mind remains eternal. With that, Spinoza culminates his masterpiece.
    " Since what is conceived, with a certain eternal necessity, through God's essence itself, is nevertheless something, this something that pertains to the essence of the mind will necessarily be eternal." Besides being an Eternalist, Spinoza is also an Idealist. It fits then that he should leave something of the mind remaining eternally, rather than what a strict Eternalist would leave, that is, something of the mind and body. But recall that Spinoza's something that pertains to the essence of the mind is the idea of the body . In the final analysis, his system coheres.
    That's terribly poignant too, because it shows he went back to his roots in the end: "The soul will blame the body for its actions."

    Anyways I've spent myself and who wants to talk about Nietzsche, really. That guy was an antenna for a frequency that was broadcasting Noh drama directly into his soul while he wrote his Zarathustra, and I don't believe he ever came back from that---he had all the inside jokes he could tell to himself in perpetuity. But I gotta say, one time I ran into this guys blog who had let Nietzsche drive him insane, and he had comprehensively worked out to an absolute end the thesis his whole philosophy was to understand that a formal Matriarchy was what's good and here's why that's the necessity. If that is true its too hysterical to ever argue with no hint of mania. So I felt bad for the guy.

    But what the other guy said rings truest to me. And I'd just add that Paul Gottfried's observation that Strauss winds up treating a text a lot like the Deconstructions do does not entirely fail Strauss for me. The fundamental truth to them is something every one of us around can understand: these words we type, the ain't alive on quick lips, which is what gets some of us into more trouble than others.

    I definitely check out the book, but one must be cautious when resurrecting phantoms. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  119. anon says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 2:10 am GMT • 300 Words

    deHaven Smith is not that impressive on several counts.

    one example: book opens:

    "Although most Americans today reject the official (lone gunman) account of the Kennedy assassination, they also have doubts about conspiracy theories and those who believe them.
    This means the CIA program was successful, for its aim was not to sell the Warren Commission, but to sow uncertainty about the commission's critics. Today, people are not only uncertain, they have given up ever learning the truth. "

    At least one high-profile person and an entire community that supports him does not have doubts, has not given up.

    Cyril Wecht blasted holes in Arlen Specter's "one bullet" theory in 1965. He's still at it. In 2013, the fiftieth anniversary of JFK's assassination,

    "about 500 people gathered at Duquesne University for a JFK symposium sponsored by the university's Institute of Forensic Science and Law, which is named for Wecht. Appearances by Stone and a doctor who tended to Kennedy brought national attention.

    People sneered when they mentioned Specter's name or the single-bullet theory.

    Across the state, the Single Bullet exhibit opened on Oct. 21. It's the first exhibition in Philadelphia University's Arlen Specter Center for Public Policy. Willens, the former Kennedy aide, delivered a speech.

    The center's coordinator, Karen Albert, said he was looking forward to defending his conclusion on the 50th anniversary. " http://triblive.com/news/allegheny/5017529-74/wecht-commission-specter

    Smith did not even mention Wecht or Specter and the single-bullet theory in his book. The omission is important insofar as its inclusion would have demonstrated that for many years the populace has been aware of the dishonesty of the US government and some have been raising their voices against and continue to do so.

    That knowledge should give encouragement to activists such as those who demand accountability for Israel's attack on the USS Liberty and the deliberate killing of 34 US sailors and other personnel.

    (Specter has been useful to the deep state in other ways: he protected Zalman Shapiro, former head of NUMEC, from prosecution for his part in smuggling uranium to Israel. http://israellobby.org/numec/ 0

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  120. anonymous says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 2:18 am GMT • 100 Words @exiled off mainstreet I didn't notice Gleiwitz was mentioned in another posting before I mentioned it. I tend go along with you and suspect incompetence rather than purpose was the cause of the Pearl Harbor disaster, though the incompetence may have included failure to adequately warn those on the ground at Pearl Harbor. Personally, I don't back the "truther" version of the twin towers because that would have required a broader conspiracy than I think could have succeeded. My guess is that the neighboring building was destroyed as part of the cleanup effort. I do think, however, that the authorities knew something was up, didn't believe it could ever succeed and used it as a sort of Reichstag Fire incident to brush aside constitutional democracy in the US. I also suspect that the Mossad knew more than they let on. My guess is that if Gore rather than Bush had been in power that history would have been far different. I suspect that the anthrax thing was more likely started by the yankee regime as a home-grown conspiracy.

    My guess is that if Gore rather than Bush had been in power that history would have been far different.

    Joe Lieberman was Gore's running mate.
    Lieberman had the Patriot Act on a shelf waiting for an opportunity -

    While holding the chair of the "Senate Committee on Governmental Affairs," Lieberman introduced on October 11, 2001, Senate Bill 1534, to establish the US Department of Homeland Security.

    Anticipating the bill's certain passage, Lieberman gave himself automatic chairmanship after he changed the name of his committee to, "The Senate Committee of Homeland Security and Government Affairs."

    Since then, Lieberman has been the main force behind legislation such as:
    -1- The USA Patriot Act
    -2- Protect America Act
    -3- National Emergency Centers Establishment Act
    -4- The Enemy Belligerent Interrogation Act
    -5- The Terrorist Expatriation Act, and the proposed
    -6- Protecting Cyberspace as a National Asset Act.

    • Agree: Bill Jones Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  121. Bill Jones says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 2:40 am GMT • 100 Words @Wizard of Oz I have a problem with the idea of likeminded elites who all move in srep together.

    They don't move in lockstep-(I assume you meant) together.
    They do however have a series of identical interests:

    Lower taxes on Capital Gains and Dividends than on Earned Income.

    No barriers to entry to low-wage unskilled workers for jobs that need to be performed in the US.

    No barriers to goods produced from low-wage countries, no matter what the conditions they are produced in.

    Control of the Federal Reserve.

    Tax-payer bailouts of failing institutions.

    etc, etc.

    If you want to get into it, I'm happy to.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz I think that is a more illuminating approach than talking about elites. As Lenin very likely said "Who? What?". The devil is indeed in the details and in details you see priorities and trade offs. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  122. Rurik says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 2:40 am GMT • 400 Words

    Thank you Mr. Unz, for this excellent- and circumspect and salient- article.

    His main problem with "conspiracy theories" was not that they were always false, but they might often be true, and therefore their spread was potentially disruptive to the smooth functioning of society. So as a matter of self-defense, elites needed to actively suppress or otherwise undercut the unauthorized investigation of suspected conspiracies.

    I'll just add that from what I've glimmered, (I'm definitely no expert on Leo Strauss), Strauss' philosophy contained more than just a careful consideration of 'conspiracy theories' and how they should be handled, but that what he advocated was a small group of highly motivated elite zealots (Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, et al) who would not just use power to control the narrative vis-a-vis conspiracy theories, but more to the point, would be the men who would conspire to alter the realities that required a mocking of "conspiracy theories" in the first place.

    From what I understand, one of his motivating themes was that his acolytes would come to understand that they shouldn't be guided by trite, pedestrian notions of morality when being the agents of change in the world. And that rather, they should use his teachings as a way to see the world as exceptional men, who would boldly do things others might shrink from, out of hackneyed notions of probity.

    Perhaps the best quote I know of to describe Straussianism (as I understand it) was made by a man who wasn't one of his actual students, but who certainly would have been well acquainted and worked closely with others who were; Karl Rove, when speaking to an aid:

    "That's not the way the world really works anymore." He continued "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality-judiciously, as you will-we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

    that quote for me, describes Straussianism to a T. And if so, certainty dovetails with what happened during the reign of Bush-the lesser. Especially with something as audacious as 911.

    That at least, is how I've seen it

    As for the control of the media, I think most of your readers are certainly aware of that particular conundrum and its consequences. It is literally impossible to be too cynical as regards our media and government and CIA and other shenanigans, IMHO.

    Thanks again sir.

    • Replies: @Pat Casey Nice job. You roped the quote that ran across my mind--- I swear these things are in the air. How do you say, the ghost of Leo Strauss was moving men to do what you can't pin on his memory? Well you said it and that settles it. Thank goodness. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  123. CanSpeccy says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 2:43 am GMT @whorefinder No Oswald Hypothesis Denier has ever presented a falsifiable alternative hypothesis to Kennedy's murder.

    The Oswald Hypothesis---as subtly admitted by Oliver Stone---passed the who, what, when, where, why, and how test. It answered all the questions and was plausible according to physics, motive, means, and opportunity. The Deniers try things like "the pristine bullet" and "magic bullet" nonsense, but those criticisms don't stand up to criticism (for example, the bullet was not pristine at all, and the bullet's tragectory was not magic at all, but followed a predictable downward path through the elevated Kennedy to Connolly).

    But more tellingly---no alternative plausible falsifiable hypothesis has been offered. No who, what, when, where , why, and how. Lots of speculation and casting aspersions (LBJ! CIA! ), but no one offers a concrete hypothesis that could be tested or researched to see as plausible.

    If you have a falsifiable alternative theory to the Oswald Hypothesis that satisfies the five w's and h, please offer it here. Until you do so, the only plausible hypothesis is that Oswald acted alone.

    It's been more than 50 years people. Give us something besides that some people disliked Kennedy (all politicians have enemies) and "eye witnesses" who keep changing their stories.

    *Oh, and the KGB worked to spread Kennedy Conspiracy theories because they undermined faith in the U.S. government and took the heat off communists for the killing. They funded some of the conspiracy theorists and promoted them.

    Hey Whorefinder, are you one of Cass Sunstein's boys , by any chance.

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  124. John Jeremiah Smith says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 2:43 am GMT • 100 Words @The Alarmist I personally think they did land on the moon, but am paying devil's advocate here ....
    "Not to be arch, but, even with the repeater on the moon, what about the bounce echo from the tight-beam signal coming from Earth carrying the deceptive info? "
    First, you could transvert from one range to another, so an interested party would have know where to look for the reflection. You could uplink in another range of S-Band, or go lower to L-band if you don't mind a little faraday rotation. Your link-budget would be just sufficient to get a signal from the lunar repeater to Earth, but that would most likely not be enough enough for a full round-trip of the terrestrial signal. Most of your tight beam would still pass fairly wide abeam the moon, and that which was reflected back to Earth would be further degraded by libration fading.

    How do you get Astronauts bouncing and hammers falling in Slo-Mo? Film at 60fps, replay at 30. Ah, but you have to have a really good clean-room to keep dust off the film. Maybe that is why videotape technology took off in the early seventies ;)

    How do you get Astronauts bouncing and hammers falling in Slo-Mo?

    Yeah, the gravity effects are a BIG job. Just slo-mo-ing won't do it, because you have different curvature of falling profile, and acceleration of gravity is different because moon-mass is less (and non-linear ref 30fps v. 60fps.)

    There would also be additive propagation delay in the radio signals. Pure delay, too - no compensation would fix that in 1969.

    • Replies: @Anonymous https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdMvQTNLaUE Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  125. SolontoCroesus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 2:50 am GMT • 300 Words @Decius First, if you are at all interested in esotericism, I cannot recommend highly enough Philosophy Between the Lines by Meltzer. The only thing critical I can say about this book is that, if one is really an expert in one of the thinkers that Meltzer treats, one will read the passages on that thinker that Meltzer cites and say "So what? I've known that for years. He's shed no new light." Which is true. But irrelevant to what he's trying to do. The book presents an unassailable case that philosophy has been esoteric since Plato. Esotericism long predates Spinoza and has been discussed since ancient times. Strauss simply revived a concept that had been forgotten. Toland (who I am not that familiar with) wrote before esotericism as it were "lapsed." Strauss says that Goethe and Lessing were the last to write this way. When Strauss revived knowledge of esotericism in the late 1930s with the first Xenophon article, he was considered nuts.

    Strauss's Machiavelli book is my favorite and I think his best. It is totally "original" in the sense that he took a wildly new path from all previous scholarship. It has basically defined the debate to this day. All subsequent scholarship either follows him, opposes him, or tries to ignore him.

    I would recommend in addition Strauss's book on Spinoza and especially the much later preface that he wrote when he felt he finally understood Spinoza's esotericism.

    Yes, the Prince (and the Discourses , and Art of War , and Florentine Histories ) are esoteric. It's too complex to argue in a comment thread. Suffice it to say for now that the outrageous "kill that dude" teachings serve and exoteric purpose.

    Strauss's Machiavelli book is my favorite and I think his best. It is totally "original" in the sense that he took a wildly new path from all previous scholarship. It has basically defined the debate to this day. All subsequent scholarship either follows him, opposes him, or tries to ignore him.

    Nonsense.

    Maurizio Viroli has dedicated his life to scholarship on Machiavelli. He reads and understands The Prince (and Machiavelli's other works and life) in the context in which they were written, taking account of the finest details of Machiavelli's human, psychological, and spiritual evolution in the course of career and writing. Viroli walks in Niccolo's footsteps; like Machiavelli, he "puts on the garments" of 15th century Florence, and Rome, and the French and Germanic cities where Machiavelli traveled to represent Florence.

    Strauss may satisfy those inclined to engage in exercise in Talmudic argument, but Machiavelli was Italian, Florentine, and Roman; Dante was his constant companion; he was also conversant in Old and New Testament literature and, less extensively, with the relatively newly rediscovered Greek philosophers.

    Strauss does not understand Machiavelli's thoughts on religion because he fails to separate Niccolo's Christian, Danteian spirituality from his disgust with the corruption of the Roman Catholic papacy and institutional church.

    If you want intellectual showmanship and hair-splitting, Strauss on Machiavelli's your man. If you want to understand the soul of Niccolo Machiavelli and the complexities of political life in the Florence, Italy he lived in and loved, you can't do better than Maurizio Viroli.

    Machiavelli and Republicanism
    http://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/history/history-ideas-and-intellectual-history/machiavelli-and-republicanism?format=PB

    Redeeming the Prince
    http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/681223

    For Love of Country: An Essay on Patriotism and Nationalism
    http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0198293585.001.0001/acprof-9780198293583

    (Strauss twists Machiavelli's love of country into an evil act because it is not universal. Yet, as one reviewer noted of Strauss, "I would make the case that the best defense of Strauss lies in an understanding of Aristotle and Israel." https://www.amazon.com/German-Stranger-Strauss-National-Socialism/dp/0739147382 )

    • Replies: @Decius First, you are wrong that Strauss thinks Machiavelli's patriotism is in itself evil. Strauss says the exact opposite at several points. But he also says that recourse to patriotism does not in itself excuse Machiavelli's recommendations to do evil. Strauss himself comes up with the most persuasive justifications (which are higher than excuses) for Machiavelli's evil sayings. But to understand Strauss's arguments, you would have to read the book and spend a lot of time with it because it is hard.

    Viroli is a scholar I respect for a lot of reasons, but not for philosophic depth. The argument about "context" diminishes Machiavelli (and all great thinkers) by presupposing that their thought is time-bound or that they could not think past the horizon of their time. The greatest minds transcend their times and even create new times. There aren't very many such, but Nick was one. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  126. CanSpeccy says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 2:50 am GMT @biz
    you are too quick to conflate 9/11 and the moon landings
    Actually, it was Unz himself who stated a while back that if we admit that one of them is possible, then all are possible, or something more or less to that effect.

    In an case, the 9/11 controlled demolition / missile / flight 93 is in a hangar in Cleveland stuff is just as implausible as faking the moon landings. Too many people and organizations and countries needing to be in on it, etc.

    biz, you obviously missed it. Bill Jones, above , debunked your argument even before you made it.

    • Replies: @biz lol, "The Mahattan Project was kept a secret."

    No it wasn't. Stalin knew about the Manhattan project before Truman did. Learn some history. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  127. Pat Casey says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 3:31 am GMT • 100 Words @Rurik Thank you Mr. Unz, for this excellent- and circumspect and salient- article.
    His main problem with "conspiracy theories" was not that they were always false, but they might often be true, and therefore their spread was potentially disruptive to the smooth functioning of society. So as a matter of self-defense, elites needed to actively suppress or otherwise undercut the unauthorized investigation of suspected conspiracies.
    I'll just add that from what I've glimmered, (I'm definitely no expert on Leo Strauss), Strauss' philosophy contained more than just a careful consideration of 'conspiracy theories' and how they should be handled, but that what he advocated was a small group of highly motivated elite zealots (Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, et al) who would not just use power to control the narrative vis-a-vis conspiracy theories, but more to the point, would be the men who would conspire to alter the realities that required a mocking of "conspiracy theories" in the first place.

    From what I understand, one of his motivating themes was that his acolytes would come to understand that they shouldn't be guided by trite, pedestrian notions of morality when being the agents of change in the world. And that rather, they should use his teachings as a way to see the world as exceptional men, who would boldly do things others might shrink from, out of hackneyed notions of probity.

    Perhaps the best quote I know of to describe Straussianism (as I understand it) was made by a man who wasn't one of his actual students, but who certainly would have been well acquainted and worked closely with others who were; Karl Rove, when speaking to an aid:

    "That's not the way the world really works anymore." He continued "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality-judiciously, as you will-we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

    that quote for me, describes Straussianism to a T. And if so, certainty dovetails with what happened during the reign of Bush-the lesser. Especially with something as audacious as 911.

    That at least, is how I've seen it...

    As for the control of the media, I think most of your readers are certainly aware of that particular conundrum and its consequences. It is literally impossible to be too cynical as regards our media and government and CIA and other shenanigans, IMHO.

    Thanks again sir.

    Nice job. You roped the quote that ran across my mind- I swear these things are in the air. How do you say, the ghost of Leo Strauss was moving men to do what you can't pin on his memory? Well you said it and that settles it. Thank goodness.

    • Replies: @Decius Wait, a quote from Rove that doesn't even mention Strauss explains everything about Strauss? Are you serious?

    I gather you just need a boogeyman and Strauss is the one you've selected. Or, more accurately, have allowed others to select for you. , @Rurik now this..

    Now, however, Europhysics Magazine, the respected publication of the European physics community, has published a report by four experts who say "the evidence points overwhelmingly to the conclusion that all three buildings were destroyed by controlled demolition."


    http://www.wnd.com/2016/08/911-conspiracy-gets-support-from-physicists-study/

    .
    .

    Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.

    ~ Buddha


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  128. Astuteobservor II says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 3:32 am GMT

    after snowden, every conspiracy theory got a 99% boost in credibility. he confirmed the big bad boogeymen watching and spying on us all.

    nothing else is impossible, nothing. every theory is now possible, everything.

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  129. Decius says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 3:55 am GMT @Pat Casey Nice job. You roped the quote that ran across my mind--- I swear these things are in the air. How do you say, the ghost of Leo Strauss was moving men to do what you can't pin on his memory? Well you said it and that settles it. Thank goodness.

    Wait, a quote from Rove that doesn't even mention Strauss explains everything about Strauss? Are you serious?

    I gather you just need a boogeyman and Strauss is the one you've selected. Or, more accurately, have allowed others to select for you.

    • Replies: @Pat Casey Don't miss my longer reply, in the cue, plus this one, but put the boogeyman business to bed and put your defenses down.... I can't say it any other way: I think the spirit of Leo Strauss may well have moved men to move mountains and mountains otherwise called federal bureaucracies and divisions of armies. It might explain not "everything" about Strauss but indeed whats essential about Strauss, which is that you are right, I suspect he was special. Step back for a second and forget that those Bush bastards were bastards and just estimate the nerve it takes to pull off 9/11 and then go into Afghanistan and Iraq. We can all at least agree, that's somthin. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  130. Decius says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 4:03 am GMT • 100 Words @SolontoCroesus
    Strauss's Machiavelli book is my favorite and I think his best. It is totally "original" in the sense that he took a wildly new path from all previous scholarship. It has basically defined the debate to this day. All subsequent scholarship either follows him, opposes him, or tries to ignore him.
    Nonsense.

    Maurizio Viroli has dedicated his life to scholarship on Machiavelli. He reads and understands The Prince (and Machiavelli's other works and life) in the context in which they were written, taking account of the finest details of Machiavelli's human, psychological, and spiritual evolution in the course of career and writing. Viroli walks in Niccolo's footsteps; like Machiavelli, he "puts on the garments" of 15th century Florence, and Rome, and the French and Germanic cities where Machiavelli traveled to represent Florence.

    Strauss may satisfy those inclined to engage in exercise in Talmudic argument, but Machiavelli was Italian, Florentine, and Roman; Dante was his constant companion; he was also conversant in Old and New Testament literature and, less extensively, with the relatively newly rediscovered Greek philosophers.

    Strauss does not understand Machiavelli's thoughts on religion because he fails to separate Niccolo's Christian, Danteian spirituality from his disgust with the corruption of the Roman Catholic papacy and institutional church.

    If you want intellectual showmanship and hair-splitting, Strauss on Machiavelli's your man. If you want to understand the soul of Niccolo Machiavelli and the complexities of political life in the Florence, Italy he lived in and loved, you can't do better than Maurizio Viroli.

    Machiavelli and Republicanism
    http://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/history/history-ideas-and-intellectual-history/machiavelli-and-republicanism?format=PB

    Redeeming the Prince
    http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/681223

    For Love of Country: An Essay on Patriotism and Nationalism
    http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0198293585.001.0001/acprof-9780198293583

    (Strauss twists Machiavelli's love of country into an evil act because it is not universal. Yet, as one reviewer noted of Strauss, "I would make the case that the best defense of Strauss lies in an understanding of Aristotle and Israel." https://www.amazon.com/German-Stranger-Strauss-National-Socialism/dp/0739147382 )

    First, you are wrong that Strauss thinks Machiavelli's patriotism is in itself evil. Strauss says the exact opposite at several points. But he also says that recourse to patriotism does not in itself excuse Machiavelli's recommendations to do evil. Strauss himself comes up with the most persuasive justifications (which are higher than excuses) for Machiavelli's evil sayings. But to understand Strauss's arguments, you would have to read the book and spend a lot of time with it because it is hard.

    Viroli is a scholar I respect for a lot of reasons, but not for philosophic depth. The argument about "context" diminishes Machiavelli (and all great thinkers) by presupposing that their thought is time-bound or that they could not think past the horizon of their time. The greatest minds transcend their times and even create new times. There aren't very many such, but Nick was one.

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  131. anonymous says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 4:07 am GMT • 200 Words @exiled off mainstreet The Israelis learned their false flag lesson from the Nazis, who used concentration camp inmates dressed as Polish soldiers as part of a phony attack on the frontier radio station "Sender Gleiwitz" a day or so before they invaded Poland.

    If Nazis didn't exist zionists would have to invent them - or maybe they did. Nuland's use of Nazis in Ukraine is sure making it look more and more likely that Hitler was an Osama bin-Laden like creation of Jews and/or the Roosevelt admin.

    1. The British were past masters of all sorts of dirty tricks. Moshe Dayan learned about house demolitions from the British when they were in charge of Mandate Palestine - pre-1939. http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.657167

    2. Jews in Poland were active participants in killing fellow Poles; from the late 1920s into the mid-1930s Jews in Soviet participated in serious numbers in Stalin's slaughter of several million Russians, Ukrainians, Poles. Some of the killed were Jewish. They didn't need Germans to teach them how to kill on a mass scale, Trotsky, Lenin & Stalin were able tutors.

    3. By early in 1938 The Haganeh had created Mossad al Aliyeh-bet - zionists planted in Germany and other European cities to shepherd Jews out of their home countries and into Palestine. Francis Nicosia writes about it in Zionism and Anti-Semitism in Nazi Germany

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  132. pyrrhus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 5:37 am GMT

    The CIA's Project Mockingbird had all the network news anchors using the words "conspiracy theory" like the brainless parrots that they were. And Americans remain well brainwashed, although it's actually hard to get anything significant done without a "conspiracy."

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  133. Pat Casey says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 5:37 am GMT • 1,000 Words @Decius First, if you are at all interested in esotericism, I cannot recommend highly enough Philosophy Between the Lines by Meltzer. The only thing critical I can say about this book is that, if one is really an expert in one of the thinkers that Meltzer treats, one will read the passages on that thinker that Meltzer cites and say "So what? I've known that for years. He's shed no new light." Which is true. But irrelevant to what he's trying to do. The book presents an unassailable case that philosophy has been esoteric since Plato. Esotericism long predates Spinoza and has been discussed since ancient times. Strauss simply revived a concept that had been forgotten. Toland (who I am not that familiar with) wrote before esotericism as it were "lapsed." Strauss says that Goethe and Lessing were the last to write this way. When Strauss revived knowledge of esotericism in the late 1930s with the first Xenophon article, he was considered nuts.

    Strauss's Machiavelli book is my favorite and I think his best. It is totally "original" in the sense that he took a wildly new path from all previous scholarship. It has basically defined the debate to this day. All subsequent scholarship either follows him, opposes him, or tries to ignore him.

    I would recommend in addition Strauss's book on Spinoza and especially the much later preface that he wrote when he felt he finally understood Spinoza's esotericism.

    Yes, the Prince (and the Discourses , and Art of War , and Florentine Histories ) are esoteric. It's too complex to argue in a comment thread. Suffice it to say for now that the outrageous "kill that dude" teachings serve and exoteric purpose.

    Steve weighed in on this a while back and made the point that what we have, what has been handed down to us, that probably is the esoteric stuff. I don't think he even mentioned in the piece how interesting it is that what we have of Aristotle seem to be lecture notes. I suspect that is just because: Aristotle taught Alexander-the teacher knew no felt need to live on as a writer like Plato did. One thing we can say about those lecture notes, we can pretty well imagine they were not written in his prime, hence we're still learning how much good stuff is there; if you know your stuff, you know as late as the late Richard Taylor that the philosopher was yet outdoing us moderns in a point he makes like an afterthought but could not matter more. But so anyways, what we have is the distilled Aristotle probably from his golden years; if we also had it in any other form, it might read comparatively mercilessly for being too esoteric. As we know him it is impossible to imagine Aristotle writing dialogues, debating other voices ; one need not name rivals when one has none and he was the King's philosopher. What you can't say is no he was being disorganized on purpose to be esoteric, right?

    But take Plato. I assume if you could read ancient Greek as well as Plato could, you would find many a double meaning at crucial turns but I really have no idea save the gut instinct that the man was an inspired writer when he wrote which is to say a poet. And what a poet does is let the muse speak and summon such nice lines as "The Beauty is not the Madness/ Though my errors and wrecks lie about me/and I am not a demigod, I cannot make it cohere." The errors that lie about him strewn about him as it were, they lie about how good he was when he was at his best. A tongue like a double-bladed sword says the Bible. I imagine some of Ezra Pound's radio rants need a second listen with less tense nerves; they say the Italians suspected he was transmitting code. Anyways. Imagine how much can be said for the stories we tell ourselves .how many former selves does any one wind up with? you have to ask your self.

    Scholasticism, well you could almost say that's all about no secret handshake shit. Make sure them key words get nailed down and no tricks or to the tower you got cause to go.

    Spinoza, oh we know exactly where his mystery lies. Edwin Curley said:

    "In responding to this objection, I think I had best begin by confessing candidly that in spite of many years of study, I still do not feel that I understand this part of the Ethics at all adequately. I feel the freedom to confess that, of course, because I also believe that no one else understands it adequately either"

    What objection? The one that says, nothing of the mind should remain eternal after the body has been destroyed if there is only one substance! We could have gone to grad school on this paper is what the man said, but first pay respects to what that meant to him personally, cause he probably escaped with his life when he did, but he knew his disciples would keep his mind alive. But seriously I should touch this up and send it somewhere:

    It must be said that the elegance of this deduction is striking. God's idea of the human body corresponds with the mind's idea of the human body. The crucial move that turns the correspondence into a startling claim is that God's idea expresses the essence of the body, while the mind's idea expresses the essence of the mind. Through the initial correspondence, God's eternal essence expressed as an idea of the body adopts the essence of the mind. Thus, when the body dies, something of the essence of the mind remains eternal. With that, Spinoza culminates his masterpiece.

    " Since what is conceived, with a certain eternal necessity, through God's essence itself, is nevertheless something, this something that pertains to the essence of the mind will necessarily be eternal." Besides being an Eternalist, Spinoza is also an Idealist. It fits then that he should leave something of the mind remaining eternally, rather than what a strict Eternalist would leave, that is, something of the mind and body. But recall that Spinoza's something that pertains to the essence of the mind is the idea of the body . In the final analysis, his system coheres.

    That's terribly poignant too, because it shows he went back to his roots in the end: "The soul will blame the body for its actions."

    Anyways I've spent myself and who wants to talk about Nietzsche, really. That guy was an antenna for a frequency that was broadcasting Noh drama directly into his soul while he wrote his Zarathustra, and I don't believe he ever came back from that-he had all the inside jokes he could tell to himself in perpetuity. But I gotta say, one time I ran into this guys blog who had let Nietzsche drive him insane, and he had comprehensively worked out to an absolute end the thesis his whole philosophy was to understand that a formal Matriarchy was what's good and here's why that's the necessity. If that is true its too hysterical to ever argue with no hint of mania. So I felt bad for the guy.

    But what the other guy said rings truest to me. And I'd just add that Paul Gottfried's observation that Strauss winds up treating a text a lot like the Deconstructions do does not entirely fail Strauss for me. The fundamental truth to them is something every one of us around can understand: these words we type, the ain't alive on quick lips, which is what gets some of us into more trouble than others.

    I definitely check out the book, but one must be cautious when resurrecting phantoms.

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  134. Pat Casey says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 6:18 am GMT • 100 Words @Decius Wait, a quote from Rove that doesn't even mention Strauss explains everything about Strauss? Are you serious?

    I gather you just need a boogeyman and Strauss is the one you've selected. Or, more accurately, have allowed others to select for you.

    Don't miss my longer reply, in the cue, plus this one, but put the boogeyman business to bed and put your defenses down . I can't say it any other way: I think the spirit of Leo Strauss may well have moved men to move mountains and mountains otherwise called federal bureaucracies and divisions of armies. It might explain not "everything" about Strauss but indeed whats essential about Strauss, which is that you are right, I suspect he was special. Step back for a second and forget that those Bush bastards were bastards and just estimate the nerve it takes to pull off 9/11 and then go into Afghanistan and Iraq. We can all at least agree, that's somthin.

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  135. 5371 says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 6:20 am GMT @Decius At any rate it's sort of absurd to watch you people chase your tails. All that you "know" or think you know is that Strauss is bad. But Schmitt is good. But Strauss is derivative of Schmitt. Doesn't that make Strauss good, or Schmitt bad?

    Schmitt is famous for arguing in favor of the essential particularity of politics--i.e., against alleged neocon universalism. So if Strauss is derivative of Schmitt, how can he be a neocon universalist?

    Strauss in fact agrees with Schmitt on the essential particularity of politics and says so, but finds a deeper source, with deeper arguments, in Plato. Schmitt admitted that his own attempt to fortify his particularism was build on the quick-sandy foundation of modern rationalism, which Strauss taught him to see through.

    When you can pin Strauss down to a definite meaning, it is false, banal or both. He is usually too obfuscatory to be pinned down. Schmitt is easy to understand and shows you true things you had not thought of before.

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  136. dismasdolben says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 6:23 am GMT • 200 Words

    My favourite historical conspiracy is the so-called "Gunpowder Plot," which is still, despite all of the evidence that has been discovered in more modern times, represented in history books, as being exclusively the work of disgruntled Catholic noblemen and their Jesuit confessors. It was actually a government projection of the Cecil ministry, completely riddled with moles who nurtured it along, right up until the point when it could be revealed to the public for maximum political effect, and to the King, so that he would become more terrorified, and, thus, more dependent upon the Cecils and their "constitutionalist" Puritan proteges. The "evidence" has, indeed, always been in plain sight, and it has been dealt with in numerous books, such as The Gunpowder Plot, Faith and Treason , by Antonia Fraser, and another book, entitled "God's Secret Agents,' but, still, to this day, the myth of conspiring priests is still propagated in atavistic anti-Catholic British history.

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  137. 5371 says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 6:31 am GMT @Decius Schmitt disagreed with you.

    This way of arguing, too, is redolent of an academic personality cult, not of actual scholarship.

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  138. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 7:19 am GMT @Wizard of Oz Fascinating. A reminder that one should five lives lived to 120 so one can lots of stories right....

    Oops! Sorry but I'm sure the typis were obvious.

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  139. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 7:27 am GMT • 100 Words @whorefinder No Oswald Hypothesis Denier has ever presented a falsifiable alternative hypothesis to Kennedy's murder.

    The Oswald Hypothesis---as subtly admitted by Oliver Stone---passed the who, what, when, where, why, and how test. It answered all the questions and was plausible according to physics, motive, means, and opportunity. The Deniers try things like "the pristine bullet" and "magic bullet" nonsense, but those criticisms don't stand up to criticism (for example, the bullet was not pristine at all, and the bullet's tragectory was not magic at all, but followed a predictable downward path through the elevated Kennedy to Connolly).

    But more tellingly---no alternative plausible falsifiable hypothesis has been offered. No who, what, when, where , why, and how. Lots of speculation and casting aspersions (LBJ! CIA! ), but no one offers a concrete hypothesis that could be tested or researched to see as plausible.

    If you have a falsifiable alternative theory to the Oswald Hypothesis that satisfies the five w's and h, please offer it here. Until you do so, the only plausible hypothesis is that Oswald acted alone.

    It's been more than 50 years people. Give us something besides that some people disliked Kennedy (all politicians have enemies) and "eye witnesses" who keep changing their stories.

    *Oh, and the KGB worked to spread Kennedy Conspiracy theories because they undermined faith in the U.S. government and took the heat off communists for the killing. They funded some of the conspiracy theorists and promoted them.

    I ask only because you may have the JFK assassination stuff well organised in your head and up to date. What do you make of the update by Colin McLaren on the humanly plausible conspiracy theory that the bullet which killed Kennedy was fired accidentally by a Secret Service man standing in the car behind? Are there any knock down arguments against it? Or big holes?

    • Replies: @whorefinder The argument has surface plausibility merit, and would seem to resolve a lot of the problems Oswald Deniers have with Kennedy's head movement. However, I haven't heard the physics argument about it, or any other evidence. So I'm neutral.

    That said, it isn't a popular theory because it offers nothing nefarious---just the SS screwing up big time. So even if it were true---and I'm open to it being true---the Oswald Deniers are far too invested in making this a deliberate mass-government coverup to listen. , @CanSpeccy I love the idea that JFK was killed by a stray bullet accidentally fired by a secret service agent. It's so obvious once the truth has been pointed out.

    Probably the same sort of balls-up explains 9/11. You know, missiles intended to shoot down simulated highjacked planes in a drill on 9/11 accidentally wamming into the Pentagon and Twin Towers.

    Then Norad had to make up that stuff about 19 hijackers and Bin Laden to cover their arse. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  140. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 7:42 am GMT • 100 Words @Miro23 Being smart has nothing to do with it.

    For example the government says that WTC7 completely collapsed in 7 seconds due to fire. You don't need to be smart to see something is wrong here (hint: most of the structural pillars were untouched by fire).

    I see the biggest problem about a conspiratorial explanation for the WTC 7 collapse is motive. How does it make sense for those who wanted the big splash that hitting buildings 1 and 2 would give? The other major difficulty is the video footage of fires burning all day which had to have heated the steel and therefore potentially weakened it to a critical point. Where's the mystery?

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy There must be hundreds of millions of words accessible on the Internet discussing the collapse of WTC Building 7. Why then foul up this discussion with the reiteration of arguments that anyone with an interest in the specifics of 9/11 will already know or can find out elsewhere? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  141. moneta says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 7:44 am GMT • 200 Words

    The biggest conpiracy, which most fail understand, is that the reason that there is all of economic termoil and wars, is due to one reason and one reason only. There is no money and what we use for transactions is the invertion of money, created by an entry of a computer. Its main purpose is to make the issuers rich and everyone else in debt to them..Countries who don't want to go into their debt become enemies and are villified. This illusion is reinforced by films, media. Tax authorities. the government.
    THIS IS THE BIGGEST CONSPIRACY on which all of the others are constructed. Including the socialist satanist society built upon it. To make it work markets have to be manipulated, which they all are.
    Get rid of money and you get rid of god. liberty, personal property and everything else of value because all values are based on nominal debt and this debt is not repayable because it has to be borrowed to be repayed and the method of repayment doesnt exist. Fereral reserve notes are counterfieted to create debt.

    • Replies: @AnotherLover Agree.

    Take that weird moderation quirk! Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  142. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 7:51 am GMT @Connecticut Famer "But the author of the "Open Society" had an open mind and I suspect he'd find the thesis reasonable that real conspiracies can both be uncovered and largely ignored because so many simply opt to ignore them. In such cases, evidence and "not taking arguments seriously" often reflects "intellectual groupieism," emotions, professional insecurities as well as venal collective interests."

    Possibly as in the JFK case? I actually watched Lee Harvey Oswald get drilled by the man who was later identified as Jack Ruby (real surname "Rubenstein") live on television. The minute it happened and even at age 16 at the time I smelled a rat. Who was ultimately behind it all is something which I can't answer and care not to speculate upon, but to this day I remain suspicious about the circumstances surrounding Oswald's death and Ruby's subsequent dissembling.

    I don't dismiss your intuitions as such but you hardly present a great case for affording them much weight. What you immediately felt at age 16 watching a screen? Nope. The fact that Jack Ruby dissembled?

    • Replies: @AnotherLover I think dismissing intuition is for suckers. What successful businessman would offer such advice? Intuition assembles all the information available to the organism, and it is rarely wrong in my experience. I appreciate when people are willing to offer their gut reaction to an event, especially knowing they are doing so in a society which trains its members to pounce on them that would have the temerity to do so.

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  143. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 7:59 am GMT • 100 Words @Bill Jones Nice try.

    The Manhattan Project was successfully kept secret despite its scope and the fact that it consumed 17% of the electricity production of the entire US.

    So, there is a counter example – an exception???

    Actually not such a good case. It was wartime in a pre Internet era and keeping their mouths shut was emphasised as a patriotic duty for everyone. The work was carried out at remote locations with vast resources behind it. The work was so new and esoteric that the best outsiders might have managed was that something was going on that they didn't understand. And of course it wasn't kept secret from our Soviet allies thanks to their spies.

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  144. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 8:20 am GMT @Bill Jones They don't move in lockstep-(I assume you meant) together.
    They do however have a series of identical interests:

    Lower taxes on Capital Gains and Dividends than on Earned Income.

    No barriers to entry to low-wage unskilled workers for jobs that need to be performed in the US.

    No barriers to goods produced from low-wage countries, no matter what the conditions they are produced in.

    Control of the Federal Reserve.

    Tax-payer bailouts of failing institutions.

    etc, etc.

    If you want to get into it, I'm happy to.

    I think that is a more illuminating approach than talking about elites. As Lenin very likely said "Who? What?". The devil is indeed in the details and in details you see priorities and trade offs.

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  145. Robbie says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 8:22 am GMT • 900 Words @whorefinder No Oswald Hypothesis Denier has ever presented a falsifiable alternative hypothesis to Kennedy's murder.

    The Oswald Hypothesis---as subtly admitted by Oliver Stone---passed the who, what, when, where, why, and how test. It answered all the questions and was plausible according to physics, motive, means, and opportunity. The Deniers try things like "the pristine bullet" and "magic bullet" nonsense, but those criticisms don't stand up to criticism (for example, the bullet was not pristine at all, and the bullet's tragectory was not magic at all, but followed a predictable downward path through the elevated Kennedy to Connolly).

    But more tellingly---no alternative plausible falsifiable hypothesis has been offered. No who, what, when, where , why, and how. Lots of speculation and casting aspersions (LBJ! CIA! ), but no one offers a concrete hypothesis that could be tested or researched to see as plausible.

    If you have a falsifiable alternative theory to the Oswald Hypothesis that satisfies the five w's and h, please offer it here. Until you do so, the only plausible hypothesis is that Oswald acted alone.

    It's been more than 50 years people. Give us something besides that some people disliked Kennedy (all politicians have enemies) and "eye witnesses" who keep changing their stories.

    *Oh, and the KGB worked to spread Kennedy Conspiracy theories because they undermined faith in the U.S. government and took the heat off communists for the killing. They funded some of the conspiracy theorists and promoted them.

    Oswald never fired a shot! A hidden witness for over 35 years had proof positive that Oswald was never on the sixth floor, and therefore couldn't be a shooter. Barry Ernest has found Victoria Adams, a witness to Kennedy's murder, on the fourth floor back staircase of the TSBD. She testified to the Warren Commission that she and her co-worker, Sandra Styles saw nobody come down the stairs, after she heard the final shots. Also with them was her supervisor, Dorothy Garner, making three witnesses (or non-witnesses in this case) that totally destroy the lone nut idea that Oswald was doing any shooting there. Adams was badgered and she felt threatened by the Warren Commission and fearing for her life, vanished for decades until Barry Ernest found her.

    So, that ends and totally disproves for all time the formerly plausible hypothesis (theory) that Oswald killed Kennedy.

    The Girl on the Stairs: The Search for a Missing Witness to the JFK Assassination by Barry Ernest (hardcover) April 2, 2013
    https://www.amazon.com/Girl-Stairs-Missing-Witness-Assassination/dp/1455617830

    http://garyrevel.com/jfk/girlonstairs.html
    "The Bob Wilson Interview with Author Barry Ernest 'The Girl on the Stairs: The Search for a Missing Witness to the JFK Assassination' "
    Feb. 18, 2014 (New York, NY)

    #7

    "There is no evidence that definitively places Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom as the shots were being fired. If you believe what Oswald is quoted as telling police during his interrogation sessions (12 hours that went unrecorded and without a stenographer being present), he was eating his lunch in the first-floor domino room when the shots occurred, and then went to the second floor to purchase a drink. This is perhaps why Vicki Adams did not see him on the stairs, why he was so calm during the lunchroom confrontation, and why [Officer Marrion] Baker first described Oswald as entering the lunchroom from a direction other than the back staircase. Certainly Vicki Adams saying she was on the stairs during this critical period presented an obvious problem to the Warren Commission's scenario, which might explain why she was the only person excluded from time tests regarding Oswald's escape, and why corroborating witnesses to her story were ignored."

    #13

    "Lee Harvey Oswald was labeled as a loner, and malcontent. From what you have learned of him, can you describe a bit about who he seems to have actually been?

    He was definitely an odd fellow. But he was also smart, capable, for instance, of beating others more advanced than he was at chess and, if you believe the official record, able to teach himself Russian, one of the most challenging languages to learn, especially on your own. He liked the opera and was a vociferous reader, knowledgeable in a lot of subjects. His actions in both his military and civilian lives seem consistent with someone having a far deeper complexity than what we have been told. Oh, and he was also a rather poor shot!"

    As for the pejorative term conspiracy theory , that was conjured up by the CIA in 1964, to counter the growing threat to the insiders' desire to promote the sole assassin idea, discredit doubters, and shut off debate. https://projectunspeakable.com/conspiracy-theory-invention-of-cia and http://www.jfklancer.com/CIA.html

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/0292757697

    "In 2013 Professor Lance Dehaven-Smith in a peer-reviewed book published by the University of Texas Press showed that the term "conspiracy theory" was developed by the CIA as a means of undercutting critics of the Warren Commission's report that President Kennedy was killed by Oswald. The use of this term was heavily promoted in the media by the CIA.

    It is ironic that the American left is a major enforcer of the CIA's strategy to shut up skeptics by branding them conspiracy theorists."

    The public has never believed the official story that Oswald acted alone ever since the first Gallup Poll was taken in early Dec. 1963, and continuing to this very day.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/165893/majority-believe-jfk-killed-conspiracy.aspx
    "Majority in U.S. Still Believe JFK Killed in a Conspiracy" by Art Swift (Nov. 15, 2013)

    Dec. 1963: 52% Conspiracy, 29% One man
    1976: 81% Conspiracy, 11% One man
    1983: 74% Conspiracy, 11% One man
    1992: 77% Conspiracy, 10% One man
    2001: 81% Conspiracy, 13% One man
    2003: 75% Conspiracy, 19% One man
    2013: 61% Conspiracy, 30% One man

    http://22november1963.org.uk/lee-harvey-oswald-marksman-sharpshooter

    " According to his Marine score card (Commission Exhibit 239), Oswald was tested twice:

    In December 1956, after "a very intensive 3 weeks' training period" (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.11, p.302), Oswald scored 212: two marks above the minimum for a 'sharpshooter'.

    In May 1959, he scored 191: one mark above the minimum for a 'marksman'.

    " Colonel Allison Folsom interpreted the results for the Warren Commission:
    "The Marine Corps consider that any reasonable application of the instructions given to Marines should permit them to become qualified at least as a marksman. To become qualified as a sharpshooter, the Marine Corps is of the opinion that most Marines with a reasonable amount of adaptability to weapons firing can become so qualified. Consequently, a low marksman qualification indicates a rather poor "shot" and a sharpshooter qualification indicates a fairly good "shot".(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.19, pp.17f)

    Folsom agreed with his (not her) questioner that Oswald "was not a particularly outstanding shot" (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.8, p.311)."

    Phlilip F. Nelson's hardcover 2011 book, a fascinating insight into LBJ's warped and sociopathic (also suffering from bi-polar disorder) personality hidden from the public, 1960-2011,

    LBJ: The Mastermind of the JFK Assassination
    https://www.amazon.com/LBJ-Mastermind-Assassination-Phillip-Nelson/dp/1616083778

    His 2013 paperback update:
    https://www.amazon.com/LBJ-Mastermind-Assassination-Phillip-Nelson/dp/1620876108

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  146. Old fogey says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 8:28 am GMT @Laurel The best strategy is to foster implausible conspiracy theories to create a cloud of disinformation. This technique was used very effectively after 9/11, such that it's very hard to discuss a coverup without being labeled a truther.

    Thank you for inserting the word "truther" into the conversation. It has always fascinated me that someone searching for the truth about a political issue is now automatically considered a conspiracy theorist.

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  147. Gene Tuttle says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 9:29 am GMT • 100 Words @Bill Jones Nice try.

    The Manhattan Project was successfully kept secret despite its scope and the fact that it consumed 17% of the electricity production of the entire US.

    I did not say it was impossible for Americans to keep secrets, just "difficult."

    The Manhattan Project was in a bygone era - one in which near total war prevailed. Yet even in that case, the Soviets knew early on what was going on. And stories appeared in the US press early on posing prying questions about Los Alamos, a "forbidden city" where there were reports of "ordnance and explosives" being developed and "tremendous explosions have been heard."
    http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/1944-Cleveland-Press-Forbidden-City.pdf

    Main point however, is that even when conspiracies become obvious they are often largely ignored.

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  148. biz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 12:11 pm GMT @CanSpeccy biz, you obviously missed it. Bill Jones, above , debunked your argument even before you made it.

    lol, "The Mahattan Project was kept a secret."

    No it wasn't. Stalin knew about the Manhattan project before Truman did. Learn some history.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    lol, "The Mahattan Project was kept a secret."

    No it wasn't. Stalin knew about the Manhattan project before Truman did. Learn some history.

    Your point misses the point. Putin probably knows as much or more about the mechanics of 9/11 than Stalin knew about the mechanics of the atom bomb and the Manhattan Project. But the issue is public knowledge, not what some individuals may know or have known. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  149. Moi says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 1:07 pm GMT • 100 Words @Rehmat There are more so-called "conspiracy theories" claimed by the US government, CIA, and organized Jewry than the Jews may have been killed by the Nazis. The "conspiracy theorists" like the "terrorists" are chosen by the Zionist-controlled mainstream media.

    Like the September 11, 2001 attacks, the lie that Iran's president Ahmadinejad called, WIPE ISRAEL OFF THE MAP, is still kept alive by the Organized Jewry even though Israel's Deputy Prime Minister Dan Meridor admitted that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad never said Iran wanted to "wipe Israel off the face of the map" in an interview with Al Jazeera in April 2012.

    American investigative writer and author, Robert Parry, claimed on September 19, 2009 that Ahmadinejad never denied Holocaust. He just challenged Israel and the western powers to allow an open debate to find the truth behind the Zionist Holy Cow, "Six Million Died".

    In reality, the only country that has been 'wiped off the map' is the 5,000-year-old Palestine by Europe's unwanted Jews.

    Iran's current president Dr. Hassan Rouhani like Dr. Ahmadinejad, is also blamed for denying the Zionist Holy Holocaust as parroted by Wiesel, which he never did, saying it's up to historians to decide who's lying.

    https://rehmat1.com/2013/09/28/holocaust-the-word-rouhani-never-uttered/

    If the Zionists can lie so much about Israeli history (e.g. The Arabs encouraged Palestinians to flee, that the Arabs were about to attack Israel in 1967, land without a people for a people without a land, etc.), one can only wonder about the official holocaust narrative of 6M dead, gas chambers, etc.).

    I've not read Elie Weisel's book Night, but I understand that no where does he mention gas chambers in Auschwitz .

    • Replies: @Rehmat Without GAS CHAMBERS the SIX MILLION DIED Holy COW becomes a HOUSE OF CARDS.

    On June 29, 2016, Boston-based publishing company Houghton Mifflin Harcourt (HMH) announced that it will publish Adolf Hitler's 'antisemite' book Mein Kampf to fund needy Jewish survivors of Nazi era.

    "The proceeds from sale of Mein Kampf will be donated to Jewish Family & Children's Service of Greater Boston," said Andrew Russell, the publisher's director of corporate social responsibility.

    The publisher had been donating money to organizations that combat anti-Semitism since 2000. Since publication of Mein Kampf is banned in France, the job was given to HMH. The publication of the book was opposed by several Jewish groups as result of company's recent announcement that in the future, it will provide funds to some non-Jewish NGOs. HMH caved-in to Jewish pressure and decided to bribe them by donating proceeds from the book to the 'evergreen' Holocaust Industry.

    In September 2001, the company filed a law suit in a New York court against Jews for Jesus, accusing the pro-Israel Evangelical group of infringing the company's copyright on its popular children's storybook character, Curious George, which the company had been publishing for 70 years.

    Interestingly, HMH is a subsidiary of Vivendi Universal, a multinational mass media company in Paris, whose CEO is Arnaud de Puyfontaine (Jewish).

    By now, hundreds of millions people around the world including some honest Jews know that Holocaust has become a tool of the Organized Jewry to rob western nations and individuals to nurse Israel's military machine. Germans and the 65 million American Evangelists are the biggest suckers of this Zionist Mafia. Organized Jewry has sucked over $93 billion from German taxpayers since the 1960s.

    https://rehmat1.com/2016/07/02/hitlers-mein-kampf-to-fund-holocaust-industry/ Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  150. Alfred1860 says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 1:51 pm GMT • 100 Words

    I find it quite amusing how, in an article supporting of the existence of conspiracy theories, so many comments consist of hurling insults at people making skeptical comments about what are obviously very sacred cows.

    People need to remember than by definition, the ratio of what you don't know to what you do know is infinity to one. Be more open minded.

    • Replies: @NosytheDuke "They shall find it difficult, they who have taken authority as truth rather than truth for authority".

    Gerald Massey Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  151. Some Important Historical Events Had Hidden Causes | We Seek the Truth! says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 2:41 pm GMT

    [ ] Read the Whole Article [ ]

  152. dahoit says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 3:13 pm GMT • 100 Words @Rehmat There are more so-called "conspiracy theories" claimed by the US government, CIA, and organized Jewry than the Jews may have been killed by the Nazis. The "conspiracy theorists" like the "terrorists" are chosen by the Zionist-controlled mainstream media.

    Like the September 11, 2001 attacks, the lie that Iran's president Ahmadinejad called, WIPE ISRAEL OFF THE MAP, is still kept alive by the Organized Jewry even though Israel's Deputy Prime Minister Dan Meridor admitted that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad never said Iran wanted to "wipe Israel off the face of the map" in an interview with Al Jazeera in April 2012.

    American investigative writer and author, Robert Parry, claimed on September 19, 2009 that Ahmadinejad never denied Holocaust. He just challenged Israel and the western powers to allow an open debate to find the truth behind the Zionist Holy Cow, "Six Million Died".

    In reality, the only country that has been 'wiped off the map' is the 5,000-year-old Palestine by Europe's unwanted Jews.

    Iran's current president Dr. Hassan Rouhani like Dr. Ahmadinejad, is also blamed for denying the Zionist Holy Holocaust as parroted by Wiesel, which he never did, saying it's up to historians to decide who's lying.

    https://rehmat1.com/2013/09/28/holocaust-the-word-rouhani-never-uttered/

    The only conspiracy with legs is the 70 year old Zionist one,and the only one that matters today.
    And only fellow travelers or their duped concern trolls disagree on that obvious truth.
    Today's lying times says latent racism by the Danes is behind their resistance to their nation being inundated by the refugees of the zionists war of terror.
    Coming from the malevolent racist scum in history,it sure wreaks of total hypocrisy,and another nail in divide and conquer.
    Can one point out one synagogue or rabbinical statement condemning the 70 years of CCs and the imprisonment of Gaza?
    The only Jewish opponents(outside of a few dissidents),the ultra Orthodox are considered self haters,as are the dissidents.

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  153. dahoit says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 3:21 pm GMT @Connecticut Famer "But the author of the "Open Society" had an open mind and I suspect he'd find the thesis reasonable that real conspiracies can both be uncovered and largely ignored because so many simply opt to ignore them. In such cases, evidence and "not taking arguments seriously" often reflects "intellectual groupieism," emotions, professional insecurities as well as venal collective interests."

    Possibly as in the JFK case? I actually watched Lee Harvey Oswald get drilled by the man who was later identified as Jack Ruby (real surname "Rubenstein") live on television. The minute it happened and even at age 16 at the time I smelled a rat. Who was ultimately behind it all is something which I can't answer and care not to speculate upon, but to this day I remain suspicious about the circumstances surrounding Oswald's death and Ruby's subsequent dissembling.

    I was 12 and had the same feeling.
    Lanskys mob member shoots down any investigation into just what happened that day.
    And remember Arlen Spector came up with the magic bullet theory,and was rewarded with Congress.

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  154. CanSpeccy says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 3:22 pm GMT @Wizard of Oz I see the biggest problem about a conspiratorial explanation for the WTC 7 collapse is motive. How does it make sense for those who wanted the big splash that hitting buildings 1 and 2 would give? The other major difficulty is the video footage of fires burning all day which had to have heated the steel and therefore potentially weakened it to a critical point. Where's the mystery?

    There must be hundreds of millions of words accessible on the Internet discussing the collapse of WTC Building 7. Why then foul up this discussion with the reiteration of arguments that anyone with an interest in the specifics of 9/11 will already know or can find out elsewhere?

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy But if you really want a short, clear, definitive, irrefutable and conclusive debunking of 9/11 Truther theories here it is :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98 , @Wizard of Oz And why doesn't that apply precisely to just about everything you have posted and how come you can't see it - or think you can get away with others not noticing?

    And where have you complained about the constant reiteration of the symmetrical fall alleged impossibility, the particles of thermite, the steel couldn't have been melted nonsense (it wasn't melting that was the point), the forewarning to the BBC and, not least, the failure to account for the videos of the fires burning all day in WTC 7 and what that could have resulted in.

    My particular analysis of motive I have neither seen emphasised by anyone else nor answered on UR at all. Have you? Or seen it dealt with elsewhere as you imply?

    As it happens there is now an exception. Just about the first UR commenter to doubt something like the official 9/11 story that has not only a respectably functioning intellect but has deployed it on the issue. See posts by CalDre on this thread and my conversation with him.

    Acttually there is indeed a question of motive on WTC 7 (if it was demolished by explosives) left well unanswered by anything but the supposition that there was something within that needed to be destroyed of which there were no copies. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  155. CanSpeccy says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 3:29 pm GMT • 100 Words @biz lol, "The Mahattan Project was kept a secret."

    No it wasn't. Stalin knew about the Manhattan project before Truman did. Learn some history.

    lol, "The Mahattan Project was kept a secret."

    No it wasn't. Stalin knew about the Manhattan project before Truman did. Learn some history.

    Your point misses the point. Putin probably knows as much or more about the mechanics of 9/11 than Stalin knew about the mechanics of the atom bomb and the Manhattan Project. But the issue is public knowledge, not what some individuals may know or have known.

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  156. dahoit says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 4:05 pm GMT • 100 Words @Decius What is a liberal? That's not a troll question. Strauss was above all a Socratic and Socratic philosophy begins with "what is" questions. One of Strauss's books is entitled Liberalism Ancient and Modern .

    Strauss was apparently a liberal in the US context in that he mostly voted for Dems. He also wrote one acerbically critical letter to National Review.

    However, a mid-20th-century American liberal may have been many things, but unpatriotic or nationalistic they were not. When liberalism turned with McGovern, Strauss looked elsewhere, and then died a year later, so we don't know how his political outlook would, or would not, have changed longer term. But at least in the 40s-60s, he was quite OK with Cold War American liberals. That's perfectly consistent with the nationalist sentiment expressed in the letter to Lowith. Also, Strauss was appalled by the dissoluteness of Weimar--and would become appalled by the dissoluteness of the late 1960s. But America prior was not yet dissolute. And he was appalled by Weimar's weakness. But America pre-Vietnam was not weak. Again, perfectly consistent with the letter.

    Strauss supported the Cold War because he thought the USSR was a real threat in the near term and because he feared, on a higher plane, the imposition of "the universal and homogenous state." He was opposed to that, whereas those to his left were for it. So was he conservative?

    Strauss transcends all these distinctions. That's not to say that they are meaningless. Indeed, he would be the first to say that they are meaningful. But, like Tocqueville, Strauss aimed to see not differently but further than the parties.

    Liberals used to say,I might not agree with what you say,but I'll defend you right to say it.
    Today they want to implant Citizenchips.
    Moon landings a hoax?I doubt that,but does it matter to today's terrible times other than a sign of American dominance in space race propaganda?
    Today we send up zionist satellites(when they don't explode) and fund their citizens efforts in militarization of space that threatens all,including US.
    Unbelievable but true.

    • Replies: @utu "Today we send up zionist satellites(when they don't explode) and fund their citizens efforts in militarization of space that threatens all,including US." - Few days before that failed launch Zuckerberg on NPR was talking much about FB in Africa and providing internet. I was wondering what else was on this payload? How many satellites Israel already has? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  157. whorefinder says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 4:45 pm GMT • 100 Words @Wizard of Oz I ask only because you may have the JFK assassination stuff well organised in your head and up to date. What do you make of the update by Colin McLaren on the humanly plausible conspiracy theory that the bullet which killed Kennedy was fired accidentally by a Secret Service man standing in the car behind? Are there any knock down arguments against it? Or big holes?

    The argument has surface plausibility merit, and would seem to resolve a lot of the problems Oswald Deniers have with Kennedy's head movement. However, I haven't heard the physics argument about it, or any other evidence. So I'm neutral.

    That said, it isn't a popular theory because it offers nothing nefarious-just the SS screwing up big time. So even if it were true-and I'm open to it being true-the Oswald Deniers are far too invested in making this a deliberate mass-government coverup to listen.

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  158. Rurik says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 4:51 pm GMT • 100 Words @Pat Casey Nice job. You roped the quote that ran across my mind--- I swear these things are in the air. How do you say, the ghost of Leo Strauss was moving men to do what you can't pin on his memory? Well you said it and that settles it. Thank goodness.

    now this..

    Now, however, Europhysics Magazine, the respected publication of the European physics community, has published a report by four experts who say "the evidence points overwhelmingly to the conclusion that all three buildings were destroyed by controlled demolition."

    http://www.wnd.com/2016/08/911-conspiracy-gets-support-from-physicists-study/

    .
    .

    Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.

    ~ Buddha

    • Replies: @El Dato Pretty weird that 28 pages have had to be sat on. Maybe someone DIDN'T tell the Saudis that they didn't need to go all Allah Uakbar (as they were planning to since the lat 80s actually) as we were ready to blow shit up anyway? I dunno. Missing of memos can occur. , @CanSpeccy
    Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.

    ~ Buddha

    That was before the mainstream media Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  159. dahoit says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 4:52 pm GMT • 100 Words @exiled off mainstreet I didn't notice Gleiwitz was mentioned in another posting before I mentioned it. I tend go along with you and suspect incompetence rather than purpose was the cause of the Pearl Harbor disaster, though the incompetence may have included failure to adequately warn those on the ground at Pearl Harbor. Personally, I don't back the "truther" version of the twin towers because that would have required a broader conspiracy than I think could have succeeded. My guess is that the neighboring building was destroyed as part of the cleanup effort. I do think, however, that the authorities knew something was up, didn't believe it could ever succeed and used it as a sort of Reichstag Fire incident to brush aside constitutional democracy in the US. I also suspect that the Mossad knew more than they let on. My guess is that if Gore rather than Bush had been in power that history would have been far different. I suspect that the anthrax thing was more likely started by the yankee regime as a home-grown conspiracy.

    Gore chose a likudnik as VP.Anyone thinks the response to 9-11 would have significantly different under those 2 needs further education.
    I notice the Wiz always deflects Israeli involvement.Of course they were aware,the dancing Israelis knew it was a terror attack by dancing before the 2nd plane hit.
    And what govt has been the only beneficiary of 9-11?
    If one can't see that answer,they have been ziocained and lobotomized.

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  160. CanSpeccy says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 5:32 pm GMT @CanSpeccy There must be hundreds of millions of words accessible on the Internet discussing the collapse of WTC Building 7. Why then foul up this discussion with the reiteration of arguments that anyone with an interest in the specifics of 9/11 will already know or can find out elsewhere?

    But if you really want a short, clear, definitive, irrefutable and conclusive debunking of 9/11 Truther theories here it is :

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II wow, that video should be mandatory for every american. , @Wizard of Oz I love it! , @I. MALLIKARJUNA SHARMA What do you mean by debunking. It is in fact concisely and clearly explaining 9/11 Truth theories castigated as conspiracy theories by the criminal rulers. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  161. utu says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 5:35 pm GMT • 100 Words @dahoit Liberals used to say,I might not agree with what you say,but I'll defend you right to say it.
    Today they want to implant Citizenchips.
    Moon landings a hoax?I doubt that,but does it matter to today's terrible times other than a sign of American dominance in space race propaganda?
    Today we send up zionist satellites(when they don't explode) and fund their citizens efforts in militarization of space that threatens all,including US.
    Unbelievable but true.

    "Today we send up zionist satellites(when they don't explode) and fund their citizens efforts in militarization of space that threatens all,including US." – Few days before that failed launch Zuckerberg on NPR was talking much about FB in Africa and providing internet. I was wondering what else was on this payload? How many satellites Israel already has?

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  162. LondonBob says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 5:39 pm GMT @Paul Jolliffe Mr. Unz,

    Here is a link to Carl Bernstein's definitive 1977 Rolling Stone article "CIA and the Media" in which he addresses - and confirms - your worst fears. You are very right, and no less a figure than Bernstein has said so for nearly four decades . . .

    http://www.carlbernstein.com/magazine_cia_and_media.php

    No coincidence that all the CIA agents involved in the JFK assassination are known to be experts in 'black ops' and news media specialists. Jim Angleton, Cord Meyer, David Atlee Phillips and E. Howard Hunt, who confessed his involvement, all made their names in black propaganda or news management.

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  163. LondonBob says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 5:51 pm GMT @exiled off mainstreet The Israelis learned their false flag lesson from the Nazis, who used concentration camp inmates dressed as Polish soldiers as part of a phony attack on the frontier radio station "Sender Gleiwitz" a day or so before they invaded Poland.

    Not forgetting the Manchurian Incident, staging events to justify a war is nothing new.

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  164. Abraham says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 6:28 pm GMT • 100 Words @Lot Given how easy it is to create a conspiracy theory, most of them will be crazy.

    Another problem with elite conspiracies is that elites usually do not have to act in secret because they already are in control. For Kennedy, a centrist cold warrior, his views already reflected those of elites, maybe even more so than Johnson.

    The other problem is that actual criminal conspiracies by elites quite often are discovered, such as Watergate and Iran Contra.

    Given how easy it is to create a conspiracy theory, most of them will be crazy.

    A statement that appears straight out of the CIA's playbook.

    Another problem with elite conspiracies is that elites usually do not have to act in secret because they already are in control.

    Such control does not imply they have nothing to hide, particularly when exposure of the deed would have damaging repercussions for them.

    For Kennedy, a centrist cold warrior, his views already reflected those of elites, maybe even more so than Johnson.

    It didn't reflect that of Israel's elites.

    After JFK's assassination, American foreign policy vis a vis Israel was completely reversed under Johnson, who hung the crew of the USS Liberty out to dry.

    The other problem is that actual criminal conspiracies by elites quite often are discovered, such as Watergate and Iran Contra.

    How is this a problem?

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  165. Astuteobservor II says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 6:37 pm GMT @CanSpeccy But if you really want a short, clear, definitive, irrefutable and conclusive debunking of 9/11 Truther theories here it is :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98

    wow, that video should be mandatory for every american.

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  166. zib says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 7:34 pm GMT • 100 Words @biz Actually, there is no symmetry in conspiracy theories as you imply.

    The definition of a conspiracy theory is an explanation of events that traces them to a secret network, and when presented with contradictory evidence, simply enlarges the network of supposed conspirators rather than modifying the explanation.

    So, just to cite one example, all of the 9/11 controlled demolition stuff is a conspiracy theory because at first it had the government and maybe the property owners in on the secret, but then the circle of supposed conspirators was enlarged to include the editors of Popular Mechanics after they did their study. Or take the moon landing, which involved 'only' thousands of NASA people until you point out that the astronauts left mirrors on the surface of the moon in a precise location, for which astronomers around the world use laser ranging to determine the distance to the moon down to the centimeter level. So then the astronomers who claim to do this had to be added to the list of conspirators and liars for this theory to stand. Then of course the more you point out, the more people who have to get added to the conspiracy, which eventually becomes all of the television industry, and even the Soviets!

    That is the reason why the so-called alternative explanations for 9/11, the moon landing, the various assassinations, the safety of vaccines, etc, are conspiracy theories, while the mainstream explanations are not.

    but then the circle of supposed conspirators was enlarged to include the editors of Popular Mechanics after they did their study

    Nice attempt to conflate the planners and executors of the 9/11 attacks with those who run interference for the "official" history of what happened that day. PM editors aren't "conspirators" of the deed, they're just a mouthpiece for NIST.

    Here's a link to Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth's evisceration of Popular Mechanics hit piece against skeptics of the NIST whitewash:

    http://www1.ae911truth.org/en/news-section/41-articles/604-debunking-the-real-911-myths-why-popular-mechanics-cant-face-up-to-reality-part-1.html

    Let's see how you rationalize this one. If you have the cajones, that is.

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  167. A
  168. El Dato says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 8:13 pm GMT • 100 Words @Rurik now this..

    Now, however, Europhysics Magazine, the respected publication of the European physics community, has published a report by four experts who say "the evidence points overwhelmingly to the conclusion that all three buildings were destroyed by controlled demolition."


    http://www.wnd.com/2016/08/911-conspiracy-gets-support-from-physicists-study/

    .
    .

    Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.

    ~ Buddha


    Pretty weird that 28 pages have had to be sat on. Maybe someone DIDN'T tell the Saudis that they didn't need to go all Allah Uakbar (as they were planning to since the lat 80s actually) as we were ready to blow shit up anyway? I dunno. Missing of memos can occur.

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  169. 5371 says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 8:29 pm GMT @Decius Kristol is a Straussian because he got a PhD in PolPhil from Harvard under Mansfield, who is a Straussian. There is no necessary connection between Strauss's thought any of the main tenets of Neo-conservatism. I've said, and you've all ignored, that Strauss attacked data-driven social science, which is the original hallmark of neo-conservatism. A later hallmark (which emerged after Strauss's death) was foreign policy hawkism. Unless you want to say that Strauss's opposition to the USSR makes him a neo-con, in which case every Cold War liberal going back to Truman was a neo-con. At which point the term has no meaning.

    Strauss addresses scholars and potential philosophers. He has almost nothing to say about the transient issues of his age. Based on his comments on what other thinkers had to say about war (Thucydides above all) I believe we can infer that Strauss was generally in favor of preparedness and wariness but otherwise anti-war in the general sense. If we may analogize the Iraq War to the Sicilian Expedition we may say that Strauss probably would have opposed the former as imprudent, just as he tacitly endorses T's judgement that the latter was imprudent.

    Strauss openly characterizes Machiavelli's approach to philosophy as a conspiracy, using that word, but does not say it about any other thinker. However, his teaching that philosophy is an inherently elite and very small enterprise may be fairly characterized as a "conspiracy." however, before modernity, the nature of the conspiracy was to protect the conspirators and the philosophic life, not a reform campaign. that's what it becomes under modernity, which Strauss opposes. One of Strauss's aims in writing was to revive the ancient idea of philosophy, its proper scope, and its proper relationship to society, which he believed modernity had corrupted.

    It is unfortunate that Strauss became a bogey-man to so many who have no idea what he said or why. It happened rather recently and based on some very thin scholarship. Most of the thing people try to pin on him are things that I and my friends oppose too. We just know they don't trace to Strauss. In fact, the opposite is often true.

    You are right that Strauss's culpability for the neocons has been vastly exaggerated. You are wrong that he is worth reading.

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  170. Ron Unz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 8:33 pm GMT • 200 Words NEW! @Miro23 Or maybe a lot of smart people pretend to believe the official 9/11 story because that's where their interest lies. MSM journalists know for sure that articles that deviate from the official line on 9/11 are career ending moves .

    In simple terms, MSM owners have decided that 9/11 is a taboo subject (same as USS Liberty) and they decide what gets published.

    Or maybe a lot of smart people pretend to believe the official 9/11 story because that's where their interest lies. MSM journalists know for sure that articles that deviate from the official line on 9/11 are career ending moves .

    In simple terms, MSM owners have decided that 9/11 is a taboo subject (same as USS Liberty) and they decide what gets published.

    Well, I haven't read through all of this enormously long discussion-thread, but I happened to notice this particular comment. Not having been an MSM journalist myself, I can't say whether or not it's true, but a couple of interesting, possibly coincidental, examples come to mind

    In late July 2010, longtime Canadian journalist Eric Margolis was told his column would be dropped, and just a few weeks later he published a double-length piece expressing strong doubts about 9/11, the first time he'd articulated that position:

    http://www.unz.com/article/911-the-mother-of-all-coincidences/

    In 2007, the parent company of The Chicago Tribune announced it had accepted a leveraged-buyout takeover bid by investor Sam Zell, who planned a massive wave cost-cutting layoffs, which eventually wrecked the company. In late 2007, the Chicago Tribune suddenly ran a very long piece regarding the Liberty Attack, about the only time I've ever seen it discussed in the MSM.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.html

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  171. CanSpeccy says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 8:47 pm GMT @Rurik now this..

    Now, however, Europhysics Magazine, the respected publication of the European physics community, has published a report by four experts who say "the evidence points overwhelmingly to the conclusion that all three buildings were destroyed by controlled demolition."


    http://www.wnd.com/2016/08/911-conspiracy-gets-support-from-physicists-study/

    .
    .

    Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.

    ~ Buddha


    Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.

    ~ Buddha

    That was before the mainstream media

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  172. SolontoCroesus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 8:49 pm GMT • 700 Words

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUJx1dVX45s

    Jeff Gates, author Guilt by Association
    (former legal counsel to US Senate finance committee)

    conspiracies Gates dabbled in: Who Killed Huey Long? (Long's death made FDR's presidency inevitable)

    8 min: "I'm not comfortable calling it zionism; I'm trained as a lawyer; I call it a multigenerational criminal gang. . . conspiracies do not hold together, neither do

    12 min: "Israelis planned the 1967 war and deliberately terrorized their own people . . . 'it was a put-up job . . . there was no attack on Israel; the Israelis took out the Egyptian air force."

    14 min: "The war is being waged against the American public, they are the great victims . . . what you do is put your people in that 'in between space;' . . . if you have a democracy based on facts and the rule of law, then it's essential that you have access to facts in order to have informed consent . . . this criminal gang dominates media, an 'in between' domain; pop culture, politics, think tanks, education, to induce people to embrace a narrative that they themselves can't really penetrate because it's the frame through which they see their world."

    17 min: "Narratives are pre-staged thru pop culture - music & entertainment/movies/TV. . ."

    24 min: "Assets are people who have been profiled to sufficient depth so that if you put them into a time, place and circumstances over which you have enormous control, . . . then you know within an acceptable range of probabilities that they will perform consistent with their profile." Monica Lewisnky added to Bill Clinton - the outcome was predictable . . .

    "Obama was identified & groomed by Betty Lou Saltzman, the dau of the UN ambassador, Pletnik . . . [related to Danielle Pletnik??] . . . I think initially he was an asset; I think he woke up & recognized that he was being used - I hope he woke up . . . it's a terrific challenge to confront those who are using you . . ."

    28 min –> JFK and the Council of Jewish Presidents . . . if JFK had succeeded in his demands on Ben Gurion, we would live in a different world today; the USA & entire region would be different."

    35 min: "When the 1967 war broke out [which gave rise to Israel attacking USS Liberty & killing 34 American servicemen] Matilda Krim was in the White House servicing our president. Is Wolf Blitzer going to report that? How many American know that? None."

    Gates: "A lot of the support we've gotten for this book has been from the broader Jewish community who say Thank You for exposing this . . .Perhaps we can indict, prosecute, imprison or execute those criminals . . .and allowing us the avenue to be ourselves . . . "

    Moderator: "Well, perhaps those people who feel that way and belong to the group should be more outspoken. I know a few but basically I can count them on one hand, from Gilad Atzmon to Israel Shamir and a couple of others. But if this is in their interest and they feel that their name is being misused, isn't that something which should be coming from this group, right?"

    [Gates weasels a bit, then] "You have to come up with a definition of What is it to be Jewish? Likewise, this term zionism - what sort of notion is it we're fighting? ? In this book we try to show how the repetitive behavior patterns and the criminal templates by which this works: you displace facts with manipulated beliefs - that's a classic . . . But it's a challenge to break through that: people say, Well, I'm part of this community and I have a law practice, an accounting practice, and I have to be careful . . ."

    38: MOD: "We have to define it: Is it an evolutionary survival strategy? Simply the expansion for Israel . . . If it's money and power alone . . . So it has to be defined by what is sought by the group, right?

    usw

    • Replies: @utu Thank you for the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUJx1dVX45s to Jeff Gates interview.

    He is really very good.

    He has a book https://www.amazon.com/Guilt-Association-Deception-Self-Deceit-America/product-reviews/098213150X/ref=cm_cr_dp_see_all_btm?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=recent Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  173. CanSpeccy says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 8:57 pm GMT • 100 Words @Wizard of Oz I ask only because you may have the JFK assassination stuff well organised in your head and up to date. What do you make of the update by Colin McLaren on the humanly plausible conspiracy theory that the bullet which killed Kennedy was fired accidentally by a Secret Service man standing in the car behind? Are there any knock down arguments against it? Or big holes?

    I love the idea that JFK was killed by a stray bullet accidentally fired by a secret service agent. It's so obvious once the truth has been pointed out.

    Probably the same sort of balls-up explains 9/11. You know, missiles intended to shoot down simulated highjacked planes in a drill on 9/11 accidentally wamming into the Pentagon and Twin Towers.

    Then Norad had to make up that stuff about 19 hijackers and Bin Laden to cover their arse.

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  174. WorkingClass says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 9:12 pm GMT

    The CIA is the presidents private secret army. Nothing it does is legal.

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  175. Ron Unz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 9:53 pm GMT NEW!

    For those without convenient access to a copy of the deHaven-Smith book, I've discovered there are some lengthy extracts available on the web:

    https://off-guardian.org/2016/09/04/are-you-a-mind-controlled-cia-stooge/

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz Ron

    You may be aware that Daniel Pipes made a study of conspiracy theories and has written books on the subject - which I haven't read. I have however sampled his long list of articles which can be found here:

    http://www.daniel.pipes.org/topics/4/conspiracy-theories , @Wizard of Oz International Pravda. My phone has just received from The Economist an article or editorial variously headed "Pepe and the Stormtroopers" and "The Normalisation of the Alt-Right". What is remarkable is the near unanimity of the hundreds of Comments in condemning TE for its condescending anti-Trump rant, even by those who won't vote for him. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  176. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 10:04 pm GMT • 200 Words

    Such unfiltered speculation must surely be a source of considerable irritation and worry to government officials who have long relied upon the complicity of their tame media organs to allow their serious misdeeds to pass unnoticed and unpunished.

    I doubt it. I would think the sheer volume of conspiracy theories would actually help to conceal actual conspiracies. For instance, InfoWars could do a brilliant series on some anti-Russian conspiracy–with impeccable reasoning and unassailable evidence. But no one in the mainstream would ever take it seriously because of all the obvious junk they publish about 9/11 and Jade Helm and Sandy Hook. The signal to noise ration is astonishingly small.

    While, certainly, journalistic laziness or malfeasance could conceivably aid in concealing an actual conspiracy, the fact of the matter is that almost all "conspiracy theories" that I would identify as such are plagued by fairly obvious pathological reasoning. (9/11 truthers, for example proclaim that "burning jet fuel can't melt steel beams!" yet this mantra is irrelevant to the actual arguments being made by people who explain the mainstream theories.) Most conspiracies are ignored on that level. In other words, it's not that some particular conspiracy couldn't be true, it's that the conspiracy theory as argued by its believers is illogical or factually incorrect on its very face.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    "burning jet fuel can't melt steel beams!"
    The bad news is that the Liberty Bridge will be closed to all traffic for at least the next week as a result of fire damage Friday to a steel beam critical to the bridge's stability.

    The good news is that the vital, 55,000-vehicle-a-day bridge spanning the Monongahela River didn't collapse Friday. That catastrophe may have been minutes away from occurring if the fire had not been quickly extinguished to prevent further damage, PennDOT officials said at a news conference Sunday.

    "I can't tell you for sure [when a collapse might have occurred], I just know it was very tight," said PennDOT district bridge engineer Lou Ruzzi. "I can't tell you if it was 10 minutes, 15 minutes ... definitely less than 30 minutes."

    He said temperatures exceeded 1,200 degrees from the fire that occurred early Friday afternoon. He said it was due to errant sparks from a welder's torch that ignited plastic piping, which then lit afire a tarp draping the bridge during its two-year, $80 million renovation project.

    It took firefighters a half-hour or less to extinguish the blaze, but it already had severely damaged a 30-foot-long steel beam - a compression chord of the deck truss that is essential for the 88-year-old bridge's support. The fire shortened the beam and put it 6 inches out of place, putting added pressure on all of the other chords supporting the bridge, Mr. Ruzzi said.

    "It buckled and moved over" in an S shape instead of straight, he said. "The effect of that is when you don't have a steel member like that that's straight, the forces [stabilizing the bridge] don't go through that member correctly the way it was designed, so [they] ended up going through other parts of the bridge. ... The worst-case scenario was the whole section could fall."

    When asked how much would fall, Mr. Ruzzi responded, "Most of the bridge," maybe 2,000 feet of the 2,600-foot span. http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2016/09/04/Liberty-Bridge-to-be-closed-for-next-week-due-to-fire-damage/stories/201609050058

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  177. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 10:35 pm GMT • 100 Words

    During the mid-1960s there had been increasing public skepticism about the Warren Commission findings that a lone gunman

    The problem with this theory is that the term "conspiracy theory" had been increasing in popularity since 1957. I'm not sure why, but Google Ngram search shows the term skyrocketing before 1964 and actually leveling out (at a high level) in 1965.

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=%22conspiracy+theory%22&year_start=1940&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2C%22%20conspiracy%20theory%20%22%3B%2Cc0

    The result was a huge spike in the pejorative use of the phrase, which spread throughout the American media, with the residual impact continueing right down to the present day.

    I'm not sure what the evidence is for this, but even if true, the phrase in general was already surging in popularity. I have no doubt the CIA was trying to use the term for some end, but blaming the CIA for its pejorative use seems unfounded unless there is some other evidence.

    • Replies: @utu The term "ground zero" was originally reserved for the center of nuclear explosion. After 9/11 it has changed. Dimitri Khalezow, the proponent of the nuclear demolition of WTC theory

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUnjbCxhXh4

    claimed that dictionary entries for "ground zero" were changed after 9/11 (some changes were done retroactively to earlier editions) to obscure the fact that term was reserved solely for the nuclear explosion. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  178. SolontoCroesus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 10:43 pm GMT • 300 Words @Boris
    Such unfiltered speculation must surely be a source of considerable irritation and worry to government officials who have long relied upon the complicity of their tame media organs to allow their serious misdeeds to pass unnoticed and unpunished.
    I doubt it. I would think the sheer volume of conspiracy theories would actually help to conceal actual conspiracies. For instance, InfoWars could do a brilliant series on some anti-Russian conspiracy--with impeccable reasoning and unassailable evidence. But no one in the mainstream would ever take it seriously because of all the obvious junk they publish about 9/11 and Jade Helm and Sandy Hook. The signal to noise ration is astonishingly small.

    While, certainly, journalistic laziness or malfeasance could conceivably aid in concealing an actual conspiracy, the fact of the matter is that almost all "conspiracy theories" that I would identify as such are plagued by fairly obvious pathological reasoning. (9/11 truthers, for example proclaim that "burning jet fuel can't melt steel beams!" yet this mantra is irrelevant to the actual arguments being made by people who explain the mainstream theories.) Most conspiracies are ignored on that level. In other words, it's not that some particular conspiracy couldn't be true, it's that the conspiracy theory as argued by its believers is illogical or factually incorrect on its very face.

    "burning jet fuel can't melt steel beams!"

    The bad news is that the Liberty Bridge will be closed to all traffic for at least the next week as a result of fire damage Friday to a steel beam critical to the bridge's stability.

    The good news is that the vital, 55,000-vehicle-a-day bridge spanning the Monongahela River didn't collapse Friday. That catastrophe may have been minutes away from occurring if the fire had not been quickly extinguished to prevent further damage, PennDOT officials said at a news conference Sunday.

    "I can't tell you for sure [when a collapse might have occurred], I just know it was very tight," said PennDOT district bridge engineer Lou Ruzzi. "I can't tell you if it was 10 minutes, 15 minutes definitely less than 30 minutes."

    He said temperatures exceeded 1,200 degrees from the fire that occurred early Friday afternoon. He said it was due to errant sparks from a welder's torch that ignited plastic piping, which then lit afire a tarp draping the bridge during its two-year, $80 million renovation project.

    It took firefighters a half-hour or less to extinguish the blaze, but it already had severely damaged a 30-foot-long steel beam - a compression chord of the deck truss that is essential for the 88-year-old bridge's support. The fire shortened the beam and put it 6 inches out of place, putting added pressure on all of the other chords supporting the bridge, Mr. Ruzzi said.

    "It buckled and moved over" in an S shape instead of straight, he said. "The effect of that is when you don't have a steel member like that that's straight, the forces [stabilizing the bridge] don't go through that member correctly the way it was designed, so [they] ended up going through other parts of the bridge. The worst-case scenario was the whole section could fall."

    When asked how much would fall, Mr. Ruzzi responded, "Most of the bridge," maybe 2,000 feet of the 2,600-foot span. http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2016/09/04/Liberty-Bridge-to-be-closed-for-next-week-due-to-fire-damage/stories/201609050058

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  179. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 10:48 pm GMT • 100 Words @biz Actually, there is no symmetry in conspiracy theories as you imply.

    The definition of a conspiracy theory is an explanation of events that traces them to a secret network, and when presented with contradictory evidence, simply enlarges the network of supposed conspirators rather than modifying the explanation.

    So, just to cite one example, all of the 9/11 controlled demolition stuff is a conspiracy theory because at first it had the government and maybe the property owners in on the secret, but then the circle of supposed conspirators was enlarged to include the editors of Popular Mechanics after they did their study. Or take the moon landing, which involved 'only' thousands of NASA people until you point out that the astronauts left mirrors on the surface of the moon in a precise location, for which astronomers around the world use laser ranging to determine the distance to the moon down to the centimeter level. So then the astronomers who claim to do this had to be added to the list of conspirators and liars for this theory to stand. Then of course the more you point out, the more people who have to get added to the conspiracy, which eventually becomes all of the television industry, and even the Soviets!

    That is the reason why the so-called alternative explanations for 9/11, the moon landing, the various assassinations, the safety of vaccines, etc, are conspiracy theories, while the mainstream explanations are not.

    The definition of a conspiracy theory is an explanation of events that traces them to a secret network, and when presented with contradictory evidence, simply enlarges the network of supposed conspirators rather than modifying the explanation.

    This is a fairly useful definition, and certainly highlights some of the pathological reasoning that is associated with conspiracy theories. However, not all conspiracy theories will exhibit this characteristic. Conspiracies like 9/11 that rely on scientific facts are sometimes rationalized this way, but other conspiracies are built on suspect witness testimony or a biased interpretation and don't require an ever-widening conspiracy.

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  180. Olorin says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 6, 2016 at 11:07 pm GMT • 200 Words @Anonymous The moon landings were likely faked. The Apollo footage was done through front screen projection. See Oleg Oleynik's work on this:

    "A Stereoscopic method of verifying Apollo lunar surface images"

    http://www.aulis.com/stereoparallax.htm

    That's so 1990s.

    Everybody knows that it's the MOON that's faked.

    There isn't any. It's just a transverse parallax asynchronous stereoscopic projection onto the upper atmosphere by the Illuminati.

    So-called lunar eclipses are their way of letting each other know there's going to be a pig roast on Jekyll Island.

    Those so-called "stars" are just bits of light coming out of terrestrial volcanoes, shining off the troposphere.

    We see more of them today because there are also lasers added. People realized something was up when some stars disappeared after Krakatoa blew up, so the powers that be had to work on an invention to replace the stars. They keep coming up with more and more of them–viz. Hubble Space Telescope. But in fact there is nothing but a void up there, and the earth is the center of it.

    "Meteor showers" are just a clever animation. It's all just a ruse to hide the fact that there are underground polar military encampments.

    There's also not really any such thing as penguins. They were genetically engineered to serve as diversions from the other stuff happening at the poles, because, for instance, people will watch cute penguin GIFs for an hour while the Illuminati move people and materiel in the polar background in plain view. But the "penguins" are an instrument of mind control that block perception.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-most-important-penguin-gifs-on-the-internet?utm_term=.sjlo787AJ#.egQnQkQqP

    http://imgur.com/gallery/Ebevb

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  181. utu says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 12:08 am GMT • 100 Words @Boris
    During the mid-1960s there had been increasing public skepticism about the Warren Commission findings that a lone gunman
    The problem with this theory is that the term "conspiracy theory" had been increasing in popularity since 1957. I'm not sure why, but Google Ngram search shows the term skyrocketing before 1964 and actually leveling out (at a high level) in 1965.

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=%22conspiracy+theory%22&year_start=1940&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2C%22%20conspiracy%20theory%20%22%3B%2Cc0

    The result was a huge spike in the pejorative use of the phrase, which spread throughout the American media, with the residual impact continueing right down to the present day.
    I'm not sure what the evidence is for this, but even if true, the phrase in general was already surging in popularity. I have no doubt the CIA was trying to use the term for some end, but blaming the CIA for its pejorative use seems unfounded unless there is some other evidence.

    The term "ground zero" was originally reserved for the center of nuclear explosion. After 9/11 it has changed. Dimitri Khalezow, the proponent of the nuclear demolition of WTC theory

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUnjbCxhXh4

    claimed that dictionary entries for "ground zero" were changed after 9/11 (some changes were done retroactively to earlier editions) to obscure the fact that term was reserved solely for the nuclear explosion.

    • Replies: @Boris That is a good example of an aspect of a conspiracy theory that is totally wrong on its face. The phrase "Ground zero" was used metaphorically way before September 11th, 2001. Anyone who spent 10 minutes researching this could find prominent examples:

    1997 book GROUND ZERO The Gender Wars in the Military By Linda Bird Francke

    1996 book VIRUS GROUND ZERO Stalking the Killer Viruses With the Centers for Disease Control. By Ed Regis. 244 pp. New York: Pocket Books.

    TERROR IN OKLAHOMA: AT GROUND ZERO : A series of articles from the New York Times about the OKC bombing.

    "Ground Zero" 1997 NYT book review: "James Meredith's forced admission was a milestone in upending the old order in America's most segregated state, a kind of race relations ground zero."

    These come from the first few pages of results when I searched the Times. The claim that the term "ground zero" was "reserved solely for the nuclear explosion." is obviously wring. Even if it weren't wrong, it's silly to suggest that it couldn't have been used figuratively for the first time after 9/11 or that its use signifies that a nuclear blast must have occurred at the WTC. , @Mr. Anon So, the world trade centers were brought down with nuclear weapons? Were the particle beams fired from orbiting battle stations down for routine maintenance that day? There seems to be no idea so stupid that a (so-called) "truther" won't entertain it. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  182. Anonymous says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 12:23 am GMT @John Jeremiah Smith
    How do you get Astronauts bouncing and hammers falling in Slo-Mo?
    Yeah, the gravity effects are a BIG job. Just slo-mo-ing won't do it, because you have different curvature of falling profile, and acceleration of gravity is different because moon-mass is less (and non-linear ref 30fps v. 60fps.)

    There would also be additive propagation delay in the radio signals. Pure delay, too -- no compensation would fix that in 1969.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdMvQTNLaUE

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
    @John Jeremiah Smith
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdMvQTNLaUE
    Shucks, that isn't even good conspiracy theory evidence. The video showing the "fake" is just normal characteristics of a CCTV camera of 1969. They didn't handle spikes well, and their light-bandwidth range was small. The "wires" that rather funny "expert" points out are retrace flares from reflection.

    Frankly, I've never seen ANY good "moon landing hoax" conspiracy theory, I suppose, for people who believe electronic devices work by magic, you can convince them of a lot of stuff. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  183. utu says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 12:38 am GMT @SolontoCroesus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUJx1dVX45s

    Jeff Gates, author Guilt by Association
    (former legal counsel to US Senate finance committee)

    conspiracies Gates dabbled in: Who Killed Huey Long? (Long's death made FDR's presidency inevitable)

    8 min: "I'm not comfortable calling it zionism; I'm trained as a lawyer; I call it a multigenerational criminal gang. . . conspiracies do not hold together, neither do

    12 min: "Israelis planned the 1967 war and deliberately terrorized their own people . . . 'it was a put-up job . . . there was no attack on Israel; the Israelis took out the Egyptian air force."

    14 min: "The war is being waged against the American public, they are the great victims . . . what you do is put your people in that 'in between space;' . . . if you have a democracy based on facts and the rule of law, then it's essential that you have access to facts in order to have informed consent . . . this criminal gang dominates media, an 'in between' domain; pop culture, politics, think tanks, education, to induce people to embrace a narrative that they themselves can't really penetrate because it's the frame through which they see their world."

    17 min: "Narratives are pre-staged thru pop culture -- music & entertainment/movies/TV. . ."

    24 min: "Assets are people who have been profiled to sufficient depth so that if you put them into a time, place and circumstances over which you have enormous control, . . . then you know within an acceptable range of probabilities that they will perform consistent with their profile." Monica Lewisnky added to Bill Clinton -- the outcome was predictable . . .

    "Obama was identified & groomed by Betty Lou Saltzman, the dau of the UN ambassador, Pletnik . . . [related to Danielle Pletnik??] . . . I think initially he was an asset; I think he woke up & recognized that he was being used -- I hope he woke up . . . it's a terrific challenge to confront those who are using you . . ."

    28 min --> JFK and the Council of Jewish Presidents . . . if JFK had succeeded in his demands on Ben Gurion, we would live in a different world today; the USA & entire region would be different."

    35 min: "When the 1967 war broke out [which gave rise to Israel attacking USS Liberty & killing 34 American servicemen] Matilda Krim was in the White House servicing our president. Is Wolf Blitzer going to report that? How many American know that? None."

    Gates: "A lot of the support we've gotten for this book has been from the broader Jewish community who say Thank You for exposing this . . .Perhaps we can indict, prosecute, imprison or execute those criminals . . .and allowing us the avenue to be ourselves . . . "

    Moderator: "Well, perhaps those people who feel that way and belong to the group should be more outspoken. I know a few but basically I can count them on one hand, from Gilad Atzmon to Israel Shamir and a couple of others. But if this is in their interest and they feel that their name is being misused, isn't that something which should be coming from this group, right?"

    [Gates weasels a bit, then] "You have to come up with a definition of What is it to be Jewish? Likewise, this term zionism -- what sort of notion is it we're fighting? ? In this book we try to show how the repetitive behavior patterns and the criminal templates by which this works: you displace facts with manipulated beliefs -- that's a classic . . . But it's a challenge to break through that: people say, Well, I'm part of this community and I have a law practice, an accounting practice, and I have to be careful . . ."

    38: MOD: "We have to define it: Is it an evolutionary survival strategy? Simply the expansion for Israel . . . If it's money and power alone . . . So it has to be defined by what is sought by the group, right?

    usw

    Thank you for the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUJx1dVX45s to Jeff Gates interview.

    He is really very good.

    He has a book https://www.amazon.com/Guilt-Association-Deception-Self-Deceit-America/product-reviews/098213150X/ref=cm_cr_dp_see_all_btm?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=recent

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  184. anti_republocrat says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 1:48 am GMT • 100 Words @Chief Seattle So, a conspiracy theory is a theory without media backing. There's no better recent example of this than when the DNC emails were released by wikileaks during their convention. The story put forth was that Russian hackers were responsible, and were trying to throw the election to their buddy Trump. The evidence for this? Zero. And yet it became a plausible explanation in the media, overnight.

    Maybe it's true, maybe not, but if the roles had been reversed, the media would be telling its proponents to take off their tin foil hats.

    Note also that the allegations immediately become "fact" because they were reported by someone else. As Business Insider reported, "Amid mounting evidence of Russia's involvement in the hack of the Democratic National Committee ," without any specificity whatsoever as to what that "mounting evidence" was (most likely multiple reports in other media) never mind that the article goes on to quote James Clapper, " we are not quite ready yet to make a call on attribution." WTF! Here, read it yourself: http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-dnc-hack-black-propaganda-2016-7

    Totally mindless. So not only is Russia hacking, but we know it's intention is to influence US elections!!! And now their hacking voter DBs and will likely hack our vote tabulating machines. You can't make this s ** t up.

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  185. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 2:33 am GMT • 200 Words @utu The term "ground zero" was originally reserved for the center of nuclear explosion. After 9/11 it has changed. Dimitri Khalezow, the proponent of the nuclear demolition of WTC theory

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUnjbCxhXh4

    claimed that dictionary entries for "ground zero" were changed after 9/11 (some changes were done retroactively to earlier editions) to obscure the fact that term was reserved solely for the nuclear explosion.

    That is a good example of an aspect of a conspiracy theory that is totally wrong on its face. The phrase "Ground zero" was used metaphorically way before September 11th, 2001. Anyone who spent 10 minutes researching this could find prominent examples:

    1997 book GROUND ZERO The Gender Wars in the Military By Linda Bird Francke

    1996 book VIRUS GROUND ZERO Stalking the Killer Viruses With the Centers for Disease Control. By Ed Regis. 244 pp. New York: Pocket Books.

    TERROR IN OKLAHOMA: AT GROUND ZERO : A series of articles from the New York Times about the OKC bombing.

    "Ground Zero" 1997 NYT book review: "James Meredith's forced admission was a milestone in upending the old order in America's most segregated state, a kind of race relations ground zero."

    These come from the first few pages of results when I searched the Times. The claim that the term "ground zero" was "reserved solely for the nuclear explosion." is obviously wring. Even if it weren't wrong, it's silly to suggest that it couldn't have been used figuratively for the first time after 9/11 or that its use signifies that a nuclear blast must have occurred at the WTC.

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  186. CalDre says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 3:16 am GMT • 200 Words @Wizard of Oz Thanks. I wonder what will happen to Israel's support if and when serious money and research and publicity is put into telling the whole Liberty story and making sure it is drummed in.

    Your 9/11 version I don't buy, not least because someone suicidal/murderous had to be controlling the planes.

    Your 9/11 version I don't buy, not least because someone suicidal/murderous had to be controlling the planes.

    Controlling, yes; but on-board, no. "Coincidentally", all of the planes hijacked on 9/11 were Boeing 767s, which have a sophisticated auto-pilot system and the ability to upload custom modules to control the auto-pilot. Just like a Predator or Reaper drone can be flown from halfway across the planet, a 767 can be flown remotely (and in the case of 9/11, since everything was known in advance, the entire flight pattern could have been pre-programmed into a module and uploaded in to the aircrafts' computers).

    If you look into it you will find reports of a a "mystery" large white jet flying over Washington on the morning of 9/11. Some have identified it as a E-4B (a Boeing E-4 Advanced Airborne Command Post), a strategic command and control military aircraft operated by the United States Air Force. We know neither Bush nor Cheney was on that plane.

    While perhaps not necessary, the cockpit could have been filled with a tranquilizing gas to incapacitate all the pilots and (stooge) hijackers so that they would not interfere with the remote-controlled operation of the planes.

    Remember that these "deeply religious" Muslim "hijackers" went out drinking at a strip club the night of 9/10. Both are deep sins in Islam, not something someone is going to do when they are about to meet their Maker. Most likely they thought they were participating in a drill (since, in fact on the date of 9/11, a drill was taking place, having to do with – wait for it – airplanes being hijacked and flown into buildings).

    The precision and extreme competence of the flying maneuvers is readily explained by the auto-pilot feature.

    • Replies: @Miro23 [all of the planes hijacked on 9/11 were Boeing 767s, which have a sophisticated auto-pilot system and the ability to upload custom modules to control the auto-pilot. Just like a Predator or Reaper drone can be flown from halfway across the planet, a 767 can be flown remotely]

    It was also very fast and accurate flying on difficult trajectories + the trainee Arab pilots down in Florida had problems with basic flying skills (see Daniel Hopsicker's book, https://www.amazon.com/Welcome-Terrorland-Mohamed-Cover-up-Florida/dp/0975290673/ref=cm_cr-mr-title to get a close up look at their feeble flying abilities).

    This book also has an interesting account taken from the Longboat Observer, 9/26/2001 that a group of Arab looking men posing as journalists and claiming to have an interview appointment with George Bush tried to gain access to him on the morning of 9/11 at the Colony Beach and Tennis Resort. , @Wizard of Oz A nice change to receive a reply which is so coherent and precise. I'm glad I chose the word "controlling" in anticipation of the point you make. Now, with my limited time and interest, I look for the easy quibble and I might have said that there were plenty of reasons why one aircraft type was chosen..... but..... I Googled appropriately and came across the kind of problem that the very assertive sceptics/truthers throw up. Pilots for 9/11 Truth gave physical reasons why the WTC planes couldn't have been 767s. But a reliable seeming site said they were 767s but the other two were 757s.

    I have no reason to doubt that remote control could have achieved the WTC impacts and I like the imagination which has gone into suggesting that the 19 were duped into thinking they were only rehearsing or reconnoitring, although that seems hard to reconcile with what is known about UA 175. I can't see why the undoubtedly suicidal Arabs shouldn't have knowingly acted as backup against either passenger or pilot interference and as partly trained pilots if the technology didn't work satisfactorily. I don't know enough about Islam or its institutions to have any reason to believe or deny that they would have lived it up in sinful ways on the eve of martyrdom which would deliver them to paradise. Do you?


    I'm afraid this is leading me to Ockham's Razor which says that partly trained Arab pilots would do nicely as four planes flown by Al Qaeda connected jihadis would serve the plotters purposes adequately. Of course it doesn't tell us who the plotters were. The reasoning applies to false flag plotters who wanted a war in the ME though I don't accept that they would have been so sure of making the connection to Saddam Hussein that they would have plotted 911 to achieve a war against Iraq.

    If the plotters were Mossad or American it would have been vital to minimise risk of exposure and therefore failure - actually worse than failure - so it is absurd to suppose that they would take the risk of packing any buildings with explosives - let alone WTC 7! - or risk remnants being found in the debris. Why four planes if you are going to demolish the Twin Towers with the certainty of controlled demolitions?
    Without the unexpected total destruction of the WTC towers it made sense to plan four spectacular but limited outrages.

    So we are back with just one question at most. Who plotted and planned the events of 9/11? , @Jett Rucker I seem to recall that two of the planes were B-757s and the two in New York were B-767s.

    I believe that leaves your point about the planes' being remote-controllable quite intact, and it is a proposition I myself find very persuasive, though I'm by no means entirely persuaded that the vehicles at the scenes were commercial aircraft at all.

    I believe the missing planes' controls were used to fly the aircraft out into the Atlantic (into Hurricane Erin) and carefully ditch them there in such fashion (and there IS such a fashion) as to leave no evidence on the surface whatsoever. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  187. Mr. Anon says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 4:03 am GMT @Miro23 Being smart has nothing to do with it.

    For example the government says that WTC7 completely collapsed in 7 seconds due to fire. You don't need to be smart to see something is wrong here (hint: most of the structural pillars were untouched by fire).

    "Being smart has nothing to do with it."

    Being smart usually has everything to do with everything. But to people like you, ignorance opens up a world of possibilities, no matter how false or ludicrous they may be.

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  188. Mr. Anon says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 4:07 am GMT @utu The term "ground zero" was originally reserved for the center of nuclear explosion. After 9/11 it has changed. Dimitri Khalezow, the proponent of the nuclear demolition of WTC theory

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUnjbCxhXh4

    claimed that dictionary entries for "ground zero" were changed after 9/11 (some changes were done retroactively to earlier editions) to obscure the fact that term was reserved solely for the nuclear explosion.

    So, the world trade centers were brought down with nuclear weapons? Were the particle beams fired from orbiting battle stations down for routine maintenance that day? There seems to be no idea so stupid that a (so-called) "truther" won't entertain it.

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  189. Nathan Hale says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 4:12 am GMT • 100 Words @Jason Liu Kinda hinges on how people define conspiracy, doesn't it? Does a group of powerful people scheming constitute a conspiracy, or does it need to be lizard people in the White House?

    The former assuredly happens all the time. And those conspiracies are likely quite boring.

    Correct. Of course conspiracies are real.

    Among the more famous ones include:

    The Watergate break-in and the coverup.

    Operation Valkyrie and other plots against Hitler.

    The overthrow of the Arbenz in Guatemala in 1954.

    In the corporate world, it often seems that upper management spends a bulk of their time conspiring against one another or entering into secret talks to sell the company to a rival, unbeknownst to the employees or shareholders.

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  190. NosytheDuke says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 4:32 am GMT @Alfred1860 I find it quite amusing how, in an article supporting of the existence of conspiracy theories, so many comments consist of hurling insults at people making skeptical comments about what are obviously very sacred cows.

    People need to remember than by definition, the ratio of what you don't know to what you do know is infinity to one. Be more open minded.

    "They shall find it difficult, they who have taken authority as truth rather than truth for authority".

    Gerald Massey

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  191. Miro23 says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 5:49 am GMT • 100 Words @CalDre Your 9/11 version I don't buy, not least because someone suicidal/murderous had to be controlling the planes.

    Controlling, yes; but on-board, no. "Coincidentally", all of the planes hijacked on 9/11 were Boeing 767s, which have a sophisticated auto-pilot system and the ability to upload custom modules to control the auto-pilot. Just like a Predator or Reaper drone can be flown from halfway across the planet, a 767 can be flown remotely (and in the case of 9/11, since everything was known in advance, the entire flight pattern could have been pre-programmed into a module and uploaded in to the aircrafts' computers).

    If you look into it you will find reports of a a "mystery" large white jet flying over Washington on the morning of 9/11. Some have identified it as a E-4B (a Boeing E-4 Advanced Airborne Command Post), a strategic command and control military aircraft operated by the United States Air Force. We know neither Bush nor Cheney was on that plane.

    While perhaps not necessary, the cockpit could have been filled with a tranquilizing gas to incapacitate all the pilots and (stooge) hijackers so that they would not interfere with the remote-controlled operation of the planes.

    Remember that these "deeply religious" Muslim "hijackers" went out drinking at a strip club the night of 9/10. Both are deep sins in Islam, not something someone is going to do when they are about to meet their Maker. Most likely they thought they were participating in a drill (since, in fact on the date of 9/11, a drill was taking place, having to do with - wait for it - airplanes being hijacked and flown into buildings).

    The precision and extreme competence of the flying maneuvers is readily explained by the auto-pilot feature.

    [all of the planes hijacked on 9/11 were Boeing 767s, which have a sophisticated auto-pilot system and the ability to upload custom modules to control the auto-pilot. Just like a Predator or Reaper drone can be flown from halfway across the planet, a 767 can be flown remotely]

    It was also very fast and accurate flying on difficult trajectories + the trainee Arab pilots down in Florida had problems with basic flying skills (see Daniel Hopsicker's book, https://www.amazon.com/Welcome-Terrorland-Mohamed-Cover-up-Florida/dp/0975290673/ref=cm_cr-mr-title to get a close up look at their feeble flying abilities).

    This book also has an interesting account taken from the Longboat Observer, 9/26/2001 that a group of Arab looking men posing as journalists and claiming to have an interview appointment with George Bush tried to gain access to him on the morning of 9/11 at the Colony Beach and Tennis Resort.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
    It was also very fast and accurate flying on difficult trajectories + the trainee Arab pilots down in Florida had problems with basic flying skills
    LOL. No, it wasn't. It was pure VFR on a clear day, with no FAA restrictions being observed by the Arab pilots. A 12-year old Boy Scout could hit a tomato can with a 767 under those conditions. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  192. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 10:59 am GMT • 400 Words @CalDre Your 9/11 version I don't buy, not least because someone suicidal/murderous had to be controlling the planes.

    Controlling, yes; but on-board, no. "Coincidentally", all of the planes hijacked on 9/11 were Boeing 767s, which have a sophisticated auto-pilot system and the ability to upload custom modules to control the auto-pilot. Just like a Predator or Reaper drone can be flown from halfway across the planet, a 767 can be flown remotely (and in the case of 9/11, since everything was known in advance, the entire flight pattern could have been pre-programmed into a module and uploaded in to the aircrafts' computers).

    If you look into it you will find reports of a a "mystery" large white jet flying over Washington on the morning of 9/11. Some have identified it as a E-4B (a Boeing E-4 Advanced Airborne Command Post), a strategic command and control military aircraft operated by the United States Air Force. We know neither Bush nor Cheney was on that plane.

    While perhaps not necessary, the cockpit could have been filled with a tranquilizing gas to incapacitate all the pilots and (stooge) hijackers so that they would not interfere with the remote-controlled operation of the planes.

    Remember that these "deeply religious" Muslim "hijackers" went out drinking at a strip club the night of 9/10. Both are deep sins in Islam, not something someone is going to do when they are about to meet their Maker. Most likely they thought they were participating in a drill (since, in fact on the date of 9/11, a drill was taking place, having to do with - wait for it - airplanes being hijacked and flown into buildings).

    The precision and extreme competence of the flying maneuvers is readily explained by the auto-pilot feature.

    A nice change to receive a reply which is so coherent and precise. I'm glad I chose the word "controlling" in anticipation of the point you make. Now, with my limited time and interest, I look for the easy quibble and I might have said that there were plenty of reasons why one aircraft type was chosen .. but .. I Googled appropriately and came across the kind of problem that the very assertive sceptics/truthers throw up. Pilots for 9/11 Truth gave physical reasons why the WTC planes couldn't have been 767s. But a reliable seeming site said they were 767s but the other two were 757s.

    I have no reason to doubt that remote control could have achieved the WTC impacts and I like the imagination which has gone into suggesting that the 19 were duped into thinking they were only rehearsing or reconnoitring, although that seems hard to reconcile with what is known about UA 175. I can't see why the undoubtedly suicidal Arabs shouldn't have knowingly acted as backup against either passenger or pilot interference and as partly trained pilots if the technology didn't work satisfactorily. I don't know enough about Islam or its institutions to have any reason to believe or deny that they would have lived it up in sinful ways on the eve of martyrdom which would deliver them to paradise. Do you?

    I'm afraid this is leading me to Ockham's Razor which says that partly trained Arab pilots would do nicely as four planes flown by Al Qaeda connected jihadis would serve the plotters purposes adequately. Of course it doesn't tell us who the plotters were. The reasoning applies to false flag plotters who wanted a war in the ME though I don't accept that they would have been so sure of making the connection to Saddam Hussein that they would have plotted 911 to achieve a war against Iraq.

    If the plotters were Mossad or American it would have been vital to minimise risk of exposure and therefore failure – actually worse than failure – so it is absurd to suppose that they would take the risk of packing any buildings with explosives – let alone WTC 7! – or risk remnants being found in the debris. Why four planes if you are going to demolish the Twin Towers with the certainty of controlled demolitions?
    Without the unexpected total destruction of the WTC towers it made sense to plan four spectacular but limited outrages.

    So we are back with just one question at most. Who plotted and planned the events of 9/11?

    • Replies: @CalDre Pilots for 9/11 Truth gave physical reasons why the WTC planes couldn't have been 767s. Their conclusion on this point has been disputed (e.g., see "Debunked: Pilots for 9/11 Truth WTC Speeds"). I don't know what planes were involved exactly but the official story says it was 767s and I have not yet been convinced otherwise. Regardless, a 757 is just as easily remote controlled.

    that seems hard to reconcile with what is known about UA 175 . And what is that? The supposed call from Amy Sweeney and Betty Ong to American Airlines on an Airfone? This could be easily faked. Bear in mind that, aside from the 19 cavedwellers, the other suspect is a CIA/Mossad joint op, meaning, the most sophisticated intelligence and black ops outfits in history. Thus, when exploring alternative explanations, you need to account for the capabilities of these agencies, not that of the proverbial Joe Shmoe.

    I can't see why the undoubtedly suicidal Arabs shouldn't have knowingly acted as backup against either passenger or pilot interference and as partly trained pilots if the technology didn't work satisfactorily. It's certainly possible they engaged in a suicide attack, but IMO unlikely given their behavior leading up to their mission.

    I don't know enough about Islam or its institutions to have any reason to believe or deny that they would have lived it up in sinful ways on the eve of martyrdom which would deliver them to paradise. Do you? There is a useful article entitled "The Concept of Martyrdom in Islam" on the al-Islam website. The idea of martyrdom involes complete submission and devotion to God. Engaging in major sins immediately before dieing for God is absolutely non-sensical. Both strip clubs and alcohol are strictly forbidden in Islam.

    I'm afraid this is leading me to Ockham's Razor . Ockham's Razos is a somewhat useful tiebreaker in scientific theories; it is wholly inapplicable to solving crimes.

    partly trained Arab pilots would do nicely as four planes flown by Al Qaeda connected jihadis would serve the plotters purposes adequately. This may be true in theory, but in practice, when one looks at the maneovers the planes underwent, it is questionable if even the most sophisticated pilots could have flown the planes as the official story requires. It is impossible that untrained civilians could have done so (and, of course, even if one were to apply Ockham's Razor, impossibile or exceedingly improbable theories are ruled out, the tiebreaker applies to multiple theories which equally explain the same phenomenon).

    Of course it doesn't tell us who the plotters were. The reasoning applies to false flag plotters who wanted a war in the ME though I don't accept that they would have been so sure of making the connection to Saddam Hussein that they would have plotted 911 to achieve a war against Iraq. There was no connection to Saddam Hussein, it was entirely fabricated (and in a quite sophisticated manner). But if you read the PNAC (neo-cons) treatise "Rebuilding America's Defenses", they do make reference to a "Pearl-Harbor like attack" which would allow them to implement their agenda, which includes re-shaping the Middle East (for the benefit of Israel). These same PNAC authors, who wrote this treatise, were in power at the time of 9/11.

    If the plotters were Mossad or American it would have been vital to minimise risk of exposure and therefore failure – actually worse than failure – so it is absurd to suppose that they would take the risk of packing any buildings with explosives – let alone WTC 7! – or risk remnants being found in the debris. I think it was important to their objective that the buildings collapse so that there was a large number of casualties as well as the desired "shock and awe" effect. And also I do not think pre-wiring the buildings was that risky: if they were caught (which they had no reason to believe, as they would have been responsible for the investigation, which they effectively managed to prevent - note that Cheney was one of the PNAC plotters/authors), they most likely have a backup story that the buildings were wired after the 1995 WTC bombing attack so that, if the building were at risk of collapse, they could bring it down safely, rather than risk the domino effect of having a large chunk of downtown Manhattan collapse.

    So we are back with just one question at most. Who plotted and planned the events of 9/11? Clearly Israel and the Zionist neo-cons who took power 8 months before the event. Note also that control of the WTC was handed over to Zionist Jew Silverstein from the New York Port Authority only a few months before the event. During that time, there was a lot of nighttime work in the "elevator shafts" - IMO, Mossad agents planting the explosives (there is of course substantial evidence for this) - and Silverstein ended up making out like a bandit with his insurance proceeds. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  193. John Jeremiah Smith says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 12:51 pm GMT • 100 Words @Anonymous https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdMvQTNLaUE


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdMvQTNLaUE

    Shucks, that isn't even good conspiracy theory evidence. The video showing the "fake" is just normal characteristics of a CCTV camera of 1969. They didn't handle spikes well, and their light-bandwidth range was small. The "wires" that rather funny "expert" points out are retrace flares from reflection.

    Frankly, I've never seen ANY good "moon landing hoax" conspiracy theory, I suppose, for people who believe electronic devices work by magic, you can convince them of a lot of stuff.

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  194. John Jeremiah Smith says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 12:57 pm GMT • 100 Words @Miro23 [all of the planes hijacked on 9/11 were Boeing 767s, which have a sophisticated auto-pilot system and the ability to upload custom modules to control the auto-pilot. Just like a Predator or Reaper drone can be flown from halfway across the planet, a 767 can be flown remotely]

    It was also very fast and accurate flying on difficult trajectories + the trainee Arab pilots down in Florida had problems with basic flying skills (see Daniel Hopsicker's book, https://www.amazon.com/Welcome-Terrorland-Mohamed-Cover-up-Florida/dp/0975290673/ref=cm_cr-mr-title to get a close up look at their feeble flying abilities).

    This book also has an interesting account taken from the Longboat Observer, 9/26/2001 that a group of Arab looking men posing as journalists and claiming to have an interview appointment with George Bush tried to gain access to him on the morning of 9/11 at the Colony Beach and Tennis Resort.

    It was also very fast and accurate flying on difficult trajectories + the trainee Arab pilots down in Florida had problems with basic flying skills

    LOL. No, it wasn't. It was pure VFR on a clear day, with no FAA restrictions being observed by the Arab pilots. A 12-year old Boy Scout could hit a tomato can with a 767 under those conditions.

    • Replies: @Miro23 There are always going to be differences of opinion on a thing like this, but Capt. Russ Wittenberg actually flew two of these aircraft doesn't have any doubts about it:

    "I flew the two actual aircraft which were involved in 9/11; the Fight number 175 and Flight 93, the 757 that allegedly went down in Shanksville and Flight 175 is the aircraft that's alleged to have hit the South Tower.
    I don't believe it's possible for, like I said, for a terrorist, a so-called terrorist to train on a [Cessna] 172, then jump in a cockpit of a 757-767 class cockpit, and vertical navigate the aircraft, lateral navigate the aircraft, and fly the airplane at speeds exceeding it's design limit speed by well over 100 knots, make high-speed high-banked turns, exceeding - pulling probably 5, 6, 7 G's.
    And the aircraft would literally fall out of the sky. I couldn't do it and I'm absolutely positive they couldn't do it." , @CalDre A 12-year old Boy Scout could hit a tomato can with a 767 under those conditions.

    You are severely misinformed. Even though one could make arguments about the second WTC impact (there was a super tight turn leading into the impact zone), the obvious flying miracle was the Pentagon strike.

    First it is worth making some context for the Pentagon. The Pentagon has 5 sides. One side had been heavily reinforced and was largely empty, except for a small group of auditors who were searching for the missing $2 trillion from the Pentagon budget that Rumsfeld had mentioned on 9/10/01. Thus, if you wanted to do damage to the Pentagon, this was the worst place to hit in terms of inflicting damage (though a perfect place to hit to minimize damage but coverup the missing trillions).

    Second, this side of the Pentagon was on the south side, whilst the plane was coming from the north. Moreover, this side was down an embankment from the road above. Thus, it was by far the most difficult part of the Pentagon to hit.

    So, to recap: the side that was struck was the most protected, the least valuable, and the hardest to hit.

    What the plane did in its approach was an absolute miracle. Without slowing down to landing speed, the plane came from the north, made a tight 180 degree turn, came down low over the road above the Pentagon at 500 mph (so low that it clipped the light posts), stayed low to the ground along the embankment, cruised exactly parallel to the ground once getting to the bottom of the embankment (this is known from the 5 frames of video released by the Pentagon about a year after 9/11, from the lack of any damage to the grass prior to the point of impact, and from the fact the impact point was only a few feet above the ground).

    Experienced pilots who have many years flying military aircraft and a decade of flying Boeings have tried to simulate a flight path as this and were unsuccessful. Indeed some of the maneuvers exceed the flight parameters of the Boeing involved. Imagine flying a massive, slowly responsive plane at 500 mph down through an obstacle course and hitting an exact bullseye (pretty much akin to painting a line on a tarmac and, at full speed (NOT landing speed), landing the plane so the rear wheels first touch the ground on the line). For these alleged terrorists, who didn't even practice landing a Cessna (and had never even been in a Boeing 757 or 767 cockpit), it is entirely impossible . Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  195. Buzz Cauldron says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 4:07 pm GMT • 300 Words

    Almost all of our fake world has the truth hidden in a way that keeps everyone arguing over one of two lies. Did we go to the moon? Yes, of course, and other places too. Just not with the technology and probably even the people we were deceived into thinking we did. The folks that did go were not Japanese tourists, capturing nearly every possible moment in film. They were in the most extreme life threatening situation of anyone in history, they weren't there to take pictures. So they faked a few, ok nearly all. It is obvious. A grade school student can see that. The simple use of stereo parallax proves this quite easily with nearly all the common moon photos.
    http://www.aulis.com/stereoparallax.htm
    The government had no desire to show the Russians how we were getting there, or what we were doing there, nor did they want to show the public what could have and probably did turn into a horror story for many of the real astronauts. The secret space program was born, and it pretty quickly found that the moon is not what we think it is and has more in common with a star wars death star than a natural satellite. It was parked there, within human history. We suspected that all along. They were told to leave it alone, so they went to Mars. They can't even pretend to tell you or show you what is going on there, it would rip the foundational pillars out of from under all of human history and belief.

    We debate everything in this world with THIS or THAT, when the illusion is a cover for a horrifying truth, that even the few (people who the world doesn't even know are alive) who know the truth behind the curtain, truly, truly don't understand entirely. So what would you have them say?

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  196. Neil Sutherland says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 4:18 pm GMT • 100 Words

    The American tradition of 'conspiracy theory', goes all the way back to America's founding, when the founding fathers wrote the Alien and Sedition Act, for fear of 'Jacobins' [jefferson and franklin would know, as they were in paris during and participants in the french revolution]. Jacobins were Masonic, or 'lluminati', and their continuous activities led to the 'Anti-Masonic' party. During Andrew Jackson's time, the Rothschild bankers continued to try to re-establish a 'central bank', and their non-stop conspiring eventually led to the Federal Reserve Act.

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  197. Jett Rucker says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 4:51 pm GMT

    The mother of all conspiracy theories is the Gas Chamber Libel against the German People.

    Vastly outdoes the Blood Libel against the Jews, and is literally a crime to express disbelief in in 19 countries today.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    and is literally a crime to express disbelief in in 19 countries today.
    not just disbelief, but simply skepticism about any single tenet of that religions doctrine

    some of which, are well known and universally repudiated lies; like the soap and lampshades blood libels. Today all scholars of that time know those were fabrications, and are not true, but if you say in Germany what everyone knows, that there were no human skin lampshades, they'll still send you to prison. They've already determined that "the truth is no defense"

    even if you don't doubt any single tenet of the holy doctrine, but only fail to give it sufficient sacred status in your own heart- as being of great personal significance to you, and you say that 'to me, it's only a detail of history', why that's illegal too and you'll be punished and fined, at the very least.

    it's as if they have a lot to lose if people stop genuflecting to the Jews every time someone say "Holocaust". So much so that they're willing to demand on pain of prison that you believe it all, or else!

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/11/14/nazi-grandma/75773774/ Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  198. Jett Rucker says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 4:59 pm GMT • 100 Words @CalDre Your 9/11 version I don't buy, not least because someone suicidal/murderous had to be controlling the planes.

    Controlling, yes; but on-board, no. "Coincidentally", all of the planes hijacked on 9/11 were Boeing 767s, which have a sophisticated auto-pilot system and the ability to upload custom modules to control the auto-pilot. Just like a Predator or Reaper drone can be flown from halfway across the planet, a 767 can be flown remotely (and in the case of 9/11, since everything was known in advance, the entire flight pattern could have been pre-programmed into a module and uploaded in to the aircrafts' computers).

    If you look into it you will find reports of a a "mystery" large white jet flying over Washington on the morning of 9/11. Some have identified it as a E-4B (a Boeing E-4 Advanced Airborne Command Post), a strategic command and control military aircraft operated by the United States Air Force. We know neither Bush nor Cheney was on that plane.

    While perhaps not necessary, the cockpit could have been filled with a tranquilizing gas to incapacitate all the pilots and (stooge) hijackers so that they would not interfere with the remote-controlled operation of the planes.

    Remember that these "deeply religious" Muslim "hijackers" went out drinking at a strip club the night of 9/10. Both are deep sins in Islam, not something someone is going to do when they are about to meet their Maker. Most likely they thought they were participating in a drill (since, in fact on the date of 9/11, a drill was taking place, having to do with - wait for it - airplanes being hijacked and flown into buildings).

    The precision and extreme competence of the flying maneuvers is readily explained by the auto-pilot feature.

    I seem to recall that two of the planes were B-757s and the two in New York were B-767s.

    I believe that leaves your point about the planes' being remote-controllable quite intact, and it is a proposition I myself find very persuasive, though I'm by no means entirely persuaded that the vehicles at the scenes were commercial aircraft at all.

    I believe the missing planes' controls were used to fly the aircraft out into the Atlantic (into Hurricane Erin) and carefully ditch them there in such fashion (and there IS such a fashion) as to leave no evidence on the surface whatsoever.

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  199. Miro23 says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 5:10 pm GMT • 200 Words @John Jeremiah Smith
    It was also very fast and accurate flying on difficult trajectories + the trainee Arab pilots down in Florida had problems with basic flying skills
    LOL. No, it wasn't. It was pure VFR on a clear day, with no FAA restrictions being observed by the Arab pilots. A 12-year old Boy Scout could hit a tomato can with a 767 under those conditions.

    There are always going to be differences of opinion on a thing like this, but Capt. Russ Wittenberg actually flew two of these aircraft doesn't have any doubts about it:

    "I flew the two actual aircraft which were involved in 9/11; the Fight number 175 and Flight 93, the 757 that allegedly went down in Shanksville and Flight 175 is the aircraft that's alleged to have hit the South Tower.
    I don't believe it's possible for, like I said, for a terrorist, a so-called terrorist to train on a [Cessna] 172, then jump in a cockpit of a 757-767 class cockpit, and vertical navigate the aircraft, lateral navigate the aircraft, and fly the airplane at speeds exceeding it's design limit speed by well over 100 knots, make high-speed high-banked turns, exceeding - pulling probably 5, 6, 7 G's.
    And the aircraft would literally fall out of the sky. I couldn't do it and I'm absolutely positive they couldn't do it."

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  200. CalDre says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 5:19 pm GMT • 400 Words @John Jeremiah Smith
    It was also very fast and accurate flying on difficult trajectories + the trainee Arab pilots down in Florida had problems with basic flying skills
    LOL. No, it wasn't. It was pure VFR on a clear day, with no FAA restrictions being observed by the Arab pilots. A 12-year old Boy Scout could hit a tomato can with a 767 under those conditions.

    A 12-year old Boy Scout could hit a tomato can with a 767 under those conditions.

    You are severely misinformed. Even though one could make arguments about the second WTC impact (there was a super tight turn leading into the impact zone), the obvious flying miracle was the Pentagon strike.

    First it is worth making some context for the Pentagon. The Pentagon has 5 sides. One side had been heavily reinforced and was largely empty, except for a small group of auditors who were searching for the missing $2 trillion from the Pentagon budget that Rumsfeld had mentioned on 9/10/01. Thus, if you wanted to do damage to the Pentagon, this was the worst place to hit in terms of inflicting damage (though a perfect place to hit to minimize damage but coverup the missing trillions).

    Second, this side of the Pentagon was on the south side, whilst the plane was coming from the north. Moreover, this side was down an embankment from the road above. Thus, it was by far the most difficult part of the Pentagon to hit.

    So, to recap: the side that was struck was the most protected, the least valuable, and the hardest to hit.

    What the plane did in its approach was an absolute miracle. Without slowing down to landing speed, the plane came from the north, made a tight 180 degree turn, came down low over the road above the Pentagon at 500 mph (so low that it clipped the light posts), stayed low to the ground along the embankment, cruised exactly parallel to the ground once getting to the bottom of the embankment (this is known from the 5 frames of video released by the Pentagon about a year after 9/11, from the lack of any damage to the grass prior to the point of impact, and from the fact the impact point was only a few feet above the ground).

    Experienced pilots who have many years flying military aircraft and a decade of flying Boeings have tried to simulate a flight path as this and were unsuccessful. Indeed some of the maneuvers exceed the flight parameters of the Boeing involved. Imagine flying a massive, slowly responsive plane at 500 mph down through an obstacle course and hitting an exact bullseye (pretty much akin to painting a line on a tarmac and, at full speed (NOT landing speed), landing the plane so the rear wheels first touch the ground on the line). For these alleged terrorists, who didn't even practice landing a Cessna (and had never even been in a Boeing 757 or 767 cockpit), it is entirely impossible .

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  201. CalDre says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 6:05 pm GMT • 800 Words @Wizard of Oz A nice change to receive a reply which is so coherent and precise. I'm glad I chose the word "controlling" in anticipation of the point you make. Now, with my limited time and interest, I look for the easy quibble and I might have said that there were plenty of reasons why one aircraft type was chosen..... but..... I Googled appropriately and came across the kind of problem that the very assertive sceptics/truthers throw up. Pilots for 9/11 Truth gave physical reasons why the WTC planes couldn't have been 767s. But a reliable seeming site said they were 767s but the other two were 757s.

    I have no reason to doubt that remote control could have achieved the WTC impacts and I like the imagination which has gone into suggesting that the 19 were duped into thinking they were only rehearsing or reconnoitring, although that seems hard to reconcile with what is known about UA 175. I can't see why the undoubtedly suicidal Arabs shouldn't have knowingly acted as backup against either passenger or pilot interference and as partly trained pilots if the technology didn't work satisfactorily. I don't know enough about Islam or its institutions to have any reason to believe or deny that they would have lived it up in sinful ways on the eve of martyrdom which would deliver them to paradise. Do you?


    I'm afraid this is leading me to Ockham's Razor which says that partly trained Arab pilots would do nicely as four planes flown by Al Qaeda connected jihadis would serve the plotters purposes adequately. Of course it doesn't tell us who the plotters were. The reasoning applies to false flag plotters who wanted a war in the ME though I don't accept that they would have been so sure of making the connection to Saddam Hussein that they would have plotted 911 to achieve a war against Iraq.

    If the plotters were Mossad or American it would have been vital to minimise risk of exposure and therefore failure - actually worse than failure - so it is absurd to suppose that they would take the risk of packing any buildings with explosives - let alone WTC 7! - or risk remnants being found in the debris. Why four planes if you are going to demolish the Twin Towers with the certainty of controlled demolitions?
    Without the unexpected total destruction of the WTC towers it made sense to plan four spectacular but limited outrages.

    So we are back with just one question at most. Who plotted and planned the events of 9/11?

    Pilots for 9/11 Truth gave physical reasons why the WTC planes couldn't have been 767s. Their conclusion on this point has been disputed (e.g., see "Debunked: Pilots for 9/11 Truth WTC Speeds"). I don't know what planes were involved exactly but the official story says it was 767s and I have not yet been convinced otherwise. Regardless, a 757 is just as easily remote controlled.

    that seems hard to reconcile with what is known about UA 175 . And what is that? The supposed call from Amy Sweeney and Betty Ong to American Airlines on an Airfone? This could be easily faked. Bear in mind that, aside from the 19 cavedwellers, the other suspect is a CIA/Mossad joint op, meaning, the most sophisticated intelligence and black ops outfits in history. Thus, when exploring alternative explanations, you need to account for the capabilities of these agencies, not that of the proverbial Joe Shmoe.

    I can't see why the undoubtedly suicidal Arabs shouldn't have knowingly acted as backup against either passenger or pilot interference and as partly trained pilots if the technology didn't work satisfactorily. It's certainly possible they engaged in a suicide attack, but IMO unlikely given their behavior leading up to their mission.

    I don't know enough about Islam or its institutions to have any reason to believe or deny that they would have lived it up in sinful ways on the eve of martyrdom which would deliver them to paradise. Do you? There is a useful article entitled "The Concept of Martyrdom in Islam" on the al-Islam website. The idea of martyrdom involes complete submission and devotion to God. Engaging in major sins immediately before dieing for God is absolutely non-sensical. Both strip clubs and alcohol are strictly forbidden in Islam.

    I'm afraid this is leading me to Ockham's Razor . Ockham's Razos is a somewhat useful tiebreaker in scientific theories; it is wholly inapplicable to solving crimes.

    partly trained Arab pilots would do nicely as four planes flown by Al Qaeda connected jihadis would serve the plotters purposes adequately. This may be true in theory, but in practice, when one looks at the maneovers the planes underwent, it is questionable if even the most sophisticated pilots could have flown the planes as the official story requires. It is impossible that untrained civilians could have done so (and, of course, even if one were to apply Ockham's Razor, impossibile or exceedingly improbable theories are ruled out, the tiebreaker applies to multiple theories which equally explain the same phenomenon).

    Of course it doesn't tell us who the plotters were. The reasoning applies to false flag plotters who wanted a war in the ME though I don't accept that they would have been so sure of making the connection to Saddam Hussein that they would have plotted 911 to achieve a war against Iraq. There was no connection to Saddam Hussein, it was entirely fabricated (and in a quite sophisticated manner). But if you read the PNAC (neo-cons) treatise "Rebuilding America's Defenses", they do make reference to a "Pearl-Harbor like attack" which would allow them to implement their agenda, which includes re-shaping the Middle East (for the benefit of Israel). These same PNAC authors, who wrote this treatise, were in power at the time of 9/11.

    If the plotters were Mossad or American it would have been vital to minimise risk of exposure and therefore failure – actually worse than failure – so it is absurd to suppose that they would take the risk of packing any buildings with explosives – let alone WTC 7! – or risk remnants being found in the debris. I think it was important to their objective that the buildings collapse so that there was a large number of casualties as well as the desired "shock and awe" effect. And also I do not think pre-wiring the buildings was that risky: if they were caught (which they had no reason to believe, as they would have been responsible for the investigation, which they effectively managed to prevent – note that Cheney was one of the PNAC plotters/authors), they most likely have a backup story that the buildings were wired after the 1995 WTC bombing attack so that, if the building were at risk of collapse, they could bring it down safely, rather than risk the domino effect of having a large chunk of downtown Manhattan collapse.

    So we are back with just one question at most. Who plotted and planned the events of 9/11? Clearly Israel and the Zionist neo-cons who took power 8 months before the event. Note also that control of the WTC was handed over to Zionist Jew Silverstein from the New York Port Authority only a few months before the event. During that time, there was a lot of nighttime work in the "elevator shafts" – IMO, Mossad agents planting the explosives (there is of course substantial evidence for this) – and Silverstein ended up making out like a bandit with his insurance proceeds.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz I am amazed. I can't immediately see any obvious flaws and BS! That's a first.

    Where does WTC 7 fit into that. Just a chance bonus? , @Wizard of Oz I was back on UA 175 difficulties and reflecting on the fakeability of a lot of calls (said by some to have been technically impossible I recall) when I saw how the most plausible version of your version must work out.

    UA 175 was always meant to crash somewhere after a real or apparent fight with the terrorists. (But how do you get up that fight to cover the diversion?) It's exactly the kind of distraction I would have planned into that op. Maybe the devout Islamists on that flight - or just one or two of them - knew that they were going to die (check night club CCTV:-) ) and maybe even knew that UA175 was a diversion in a bigger plan.

    Wow I think I have a new career for my next lifetime. Would you care to buy some shares in my FakeMarsLanding Inc float? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  202. Rehmat says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 6:15 pm GMT • 300 Words @Moi If the Zionists can lie so much about Israeli history (e.g. The Arabs encouraged Palestinians to flee, that the Arabs were about to attack Israel in 1967, land without a people for a people without a land, etc.), one can only wonder about the official holocaust narrative of 6M dead, gas chambers, etc.).

    I've not read Elie Weisel's book Night, but I understand that no where does he mention gas chambers in Auschwitz....

    Without GAS CHAMBERS the SIX MILLION DIED Holy COW becomes a HOUSE OF CARDS.

    On June 29, 2016, Boston-based publishing company Houghton Mifflin Harcourt (HMH) announced that it will publish Adolf Hitler's 'antisemite' book Mein Kampf to fund needy Jewish survivors of Nazi era.

    "The proceeds from sale of Mein Kampf will be donated to Jewish Family & Children's Service of Greater Boston," said Andrew Russell, the publisher's director of corporate social responsibility.

    The publisher had been donating money to organizations that combat anti-Semitism since 2000. Since publication of Mein Kampf is banned in France, the job was given to HMH. The publication of the book was opposed by several Jewish groups as result of company's recent announcement that in the future, it will provide funds to some non-Jewish NGOs. HMH caved-in to Jewish pressure and decided to bribe them by donating proceeds from the book to the 'evergreen' Holocaust Industry.

    In September 2001, the company filed a law suit in a New York court against Jews for Jesus, accusing the pro-Israel Evangelical group of infringing the company's copyright on its popular children's storybook character, Curious George, which the company had been publishing for 70 years.

    Interestingly, HMH is a subsidiary of Vivendi Universal, a multinational mass media company in Paris, whose CEO is Arnaud de Puyfontaine (Jewish).

    By now, hundreds of millions people around the world including some honest Jews know that Holocaust has become a tool of the Organized Jewry to rob western nations and individuals to nurse Israel's military machine. Germans and the 65 million American Evangelists are the biggest suckers of this Zionist Mafia. Organized Jewry has sucked over $93 billion from German taxpayers since the 1960s.

    https://rehmat1.com/2016/07/02/hitlers-mein-kampf-to-fund-holocaust-industry/

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  203. AnotherLover says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 6:56 pm GMT • 200 Words @Pat Casey
    "We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false."

    --William Casey, CIA Director, from a first staff meeting in 1981

    You can read the context of that quote according to the person who claims to be its original source here:

    https://www.quora.com/Did-William-Casey-CIA-Director-really-say-Well-know-our-disinformation-program-is-complete-when-everything-the-American-public-believes-is-false

    I think it's worth pointing out what I've never seen explained about that quote, a quote with as much currency in the conspiracy theory fever swamps as any single quote has ever had. The point of the disinformation campaign was not to manipulate the public but to manipulate the soviets. Because our CIA analysts spent so much time unriddling the soviet media, we figured their CIA analysts were doing the same thing with ours.

    People dismiss obviousness and redundancy, yet often both are necessary to fully paint the picture. Where you wrote:

    "The point of the disinformation campaign was not to manipulate the public but to manipulate the soviets"

    you could have been more accurate by continuing:

    "by manipulating the public."

    Ah, redundant and obvious to be sure, but more complete, no? Should it pacify the average prole to know that not even their acquiescence is desired of them, but that they are useful as a disinformation tool? Have things changed since then? Is less intelligence publicly available today? Or more? And what lessons did the CIA learn in manipulating public opinion by domestic propaganda operations in the meantime?

    Sure, the context of the quote adds the realism it's clearly lacking as it floats by itself surrounded by quotation marks, yet the takeaway is the same, is it not? A massive intelligence operation designed to confuse the public with the media is what we've got on the table. Let that sink in good and hard.

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  204. AnotherLover says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 7:08 pm GMT @moneta The biggest conpiracy, which most fail understand, is that the reason that there is all of economic termoil and wars, is due to one reason and one reason only. There is no money and what we use for transactions is the invertion of money, created by an entry of a computer. Its main purpose is to make the issuers rich and everyone else in debt to them..Countries who don't want to go into their debt become enemies and are villified. This illusion is reinforced by films, media. Tax authorities. the government.
    THIS IS THE BIGGEST CONSPIRACY on which all of the others are constructed. Including the socialist satanist society built upon it. To make it work markets have to be manipulated, which they all are.
    Get rid of money and you get rid of god. liberty, personal property and everything else of value because all values are based on nominal debt and this debt is not repayable because it has to be borrowed to be repayed and the method of repayment doesnt exist. Fereral reserve notes are counterfieted to create debt.

    Agree.

    Take that weird moderation quirk!

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  205. AnotherLover says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 7:15 pm GMT • 100 Words @Wizard of Oz I don't dismiss your intuitions as such but you hardly present a great case for affording them much weight. What you immediately felt at age 16 watching a screen? Nope. The fact that Jack Ruby dissembled?

    I think dismissing intuition is for suckers. What successful businessman would offer such advice? Intuition assembles all the information available to the organism, and it is rarely wrong in my experience. I appreciate when people are willing to offer their gut reaction to an event, especially knowing they are doing so in a society which trains its members to pounce on them that would have the temerity to do so.

    Present company excluded, of course

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  206. Rurik says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 7:23 pm GMT • 200 Words @Jett Rucker The mother of all conspiracy theories is the Gas Chamber Libel against the German People.

    Vastly outdoes the Blood Libel against the Jews, and is literally a crime to express disbelief in in 19 countries today.

    and is literally a crime to express disbelief in in 19 countries today.

    not just disbelief, but simply skepticism about any single tenet of that religions doctrine

    some of which, are well known and universally repudiated lies; like the soap and lampshades blood libels. Today all scholars of that time know those were fabrications, and are not true, but if you say in Germany what everyone knows, that there were no human skin lampshades, they'll still send you to prison. They've already determined that "the truth is no defense"

    even if you don't doubt any single tenet of the holy doctrine, but only fail to give it sufficient sacred status in your own heart- as being of great personal significance to you, and you say that 'to me, it's only a detail of history', why that's illegal too and you'll be punished and fined, at the very least.

    it's as if they have a lot to lose if people stop genuflecting to the Jews every time someone say "Holocaust". So much so that they're willing to demand on pain of prison that you believe it all, or else!

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/11/14/nazi-grandma/75773774/

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  207. Ed Rankin says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 8:42 pm GMT • 300 Words

    In Dispatch 1035-960 mailed to station chiefs on April 1, 1967, the CIA laid out a series of "talking points" in its memo addressing the "conspiracy theorists" who were questioning the Warren Commission's findings on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. They include the following:

    Claim that it "would be impossible to conceal" such a large-scale conspiracy.

    Claim that further speculative discussion only plays into the hands of the opposition.

    Claim that "no significant new evidence has emerged"

    Accuse theorists of falling in love with their theories.

    Claimed conspiracy theorists are wedded to their theories before the evidence was in.

    Accuse theorists of being politically motivated.

    Accuse theorists of being financially motivated.

    I have found numerous examples of these exact points being made in televised news segments, newspapers, magazines and even some academic articles and scholarly books.

    Additionally, some of the most influential and frequently-cited authors who are the most critical of "conspiracy theorists", both academic and lay people, have very direct ties to government, foundations and other institutions of authority.

    While we can't know if the CIA was primarily responsible for the creation of the pejorative, but what we do know from the Church Committee hearings, was that the Agency did have paid operatives working inside major media organizations as late as the 1970s. In fact, CNN anchor Anderson Cooper has acknowledged ties to the CIA.

    With recent lifting of restrictions on the government's use of domestic propaganda with the Smith-Mundt Modernization Act of 2012, which passed as part of the 2013 National Defense Authorization Act, I think reasonable people would expect this type of pejorative construction to resume if in fact, it ever ceased.

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  208. Bill Jones says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 9:47 pm GMT

    A nice little piece on one of the players in the big conspiracy:
    https://www.corbettreport.com/911-suspects-philip-zelikow/

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  209. Buzz Mohawk says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 10:29 pm GMT • 200 Words @Anonymous
    I was a boy watching those transmissions you helped bring us. Thank you, Sir!

    Apollo is one of the greatest human achievements, my absolute favorite historical event. I consider myself lucky to have been alive and old enough to witness and understand it.

    ...

    And I believe there has been in fact some conspiratorial effort over the years to promote their idiocy, a conspiracy on the part of those who would weaken American pride and reputation.

    Sure, it's certainly possible that there's been a conspiracy to promote the notion that the moon landing was a hoax.

    But it's also true that people with deep emotional attachments to things, especially inculcated in childhood, have trouble considering and questioning certain things. And it's well known that propaganda deliberately tries to inculcate these sort of emotional attachments in order to be more effective.

    You apparently have trouble accepting an accomplished fact that contradicts your pathetic, childish idea of what is possible or was possible at that time.

    You must not have much aptitude for physics or engineering or any hard science. I grasped it when I was age ten in ways you still can't. It wasn't childhood wonder, as you assume. It was a real understanding of what was being done. It was, at age ten, beyond what you even possess now.

    No one who has an understanding of physics and engineering principles thinks as you do. Yet you write such an insightful sounding piece of armchair psychology.

    The Apollo program was so far beyond your comprehension that you just have to write crap like what you wrote to me. We are now half a century after the fact, and fools like you fall for this garbage.

    Pathetic.

    For whatever reason, maybe ones Ron describes here, a conspiracy theory about Apollo has been floated for decades. Scientifically illiterate fools fall for it.

    Yes, as Ron implies, these things might be created just to drag more probable conspiracies into the same mental swamp in the public mind.

    This one conspiracy theory you fell for lies squarely in the category of the blindingly stupid.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz Unless I have missed relevant prolegomena from this Anonymous I think you have grossly overreacted to what he/she actually wrote. In a tellingly emotional way in fact. QED? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  210. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 10:40 pm GMT @CalDre Pilots for 9/11 Truth gave physical reasons why the WTC planes couldn't have been 767s. Their conclusion on this point has been disputed (e.g., see "Debunked: Pilots for 9/11 Truth WTC Speeds"). I don't know what planes were involved exactly but the official story says it was 767s and I have not yet been convinced otherwise. Regardless, a 757 is just as easily remote controlled.

    that seems hard to reconcile with what is known about UA 175 . And what is that? The supposed call from Amy Sweeney and Betty Ong to American Airlines on an Airfone? This could be easily faked. Bear in mind that, aside from the 19 cavedwellers, the other suspect is a CIA/Mossad joint op, meaning, the most sophisticated intelligence and black ops outfits in history. Thus, when exploring alternative explanations, you need to account for the capabilities of these agencies, not that of the proverbial Joe Shmoe.

    I can't see why the undoubtedly suicidal Arabs shouldn't have knowingly acted as backup against either passenger or pilot interference and as partly trained pilots if the technology didn't work satisfactorily. It's certainly possible they engaged in a suicide attack, but IMO unlikely given their behavior leading up to their mission.

    I don't know enough about Islam or its institutions to have any reason to believe or deny that they would have lived it up in sinful ways on the eve of martyrdom which would deliver them to paradise. Do you? There is a useful article entitled "The Concept of Martyrdom in Islam" on the al-Islam website. The idea of martyrdom involes complete submission and devotion to God. Engaging in major sins immediately before dieing for God is absolutely non-sensical. Both strip clubs and alcohol are strictly forbidden in Islam.

    I'm afraid this is leading me to Ockham's Razor . Ockham's Razos is a somewhat useful tiebreaker in scientific theories; it is wholly inapplicable to solving crimes.

    partly trained Arab pilots would do nicely as four planes flown by Al Qaeda connected jihadis would serve the plotters purposes adequately. This may be true in theory, but in practice, when one looks at the maneovers the planes underwent, it is questionable if even the most sophisticated pilots could have flown the planes as the official story requires. It is impossible that untrained civilians could have done so (and, of course, even if one were to apply Ockham's Razor, impossibile or exceedingly improbable theories are ruled out, the tiebreaker applies to multiple theories which equally explain the same phenomenon).

    Of course it doesn't tell us who the plotters were. The reasoning applies to false flag plotters who wanted a war in the ME though I don't accept that they would have been so sure of making the connection to Saddam Hussein that they would have plotted 911 to achieve a war against Iraq. There was no connection to Saddam Hussein, it was entirely fabricated (and in a quite sophisticated manner). But if you read the PNAC (neo-cons) treatise "Rebuilding America's Defenses", they do make reference to a "Pearl-Harbor like attack" which would allow them to implement their agenda, which includes re-shaping the Middle East (for the benefit of Israel). These same PNAC authors, who wrote this treatise, were in power at the time of 9/11.

    If the plotters were Mossad or American it would have been vital to minimise risk of exposure and therefore failure – actually worse than failure – so it is absurd to suppose that they would take the risk of packing any buildings with explosives – let alone WTC 7! – or risk remnants being found in the debris. I think it was important to their objective that the buildings collapse so that there was a large number of casualties as well as the desired "shock and awe" effect. And also I do not think pre-wiring the buildings was that risky: if they were caught (which they had no reason to believe, as they would have been responsible for the investigation, which they effectively managed to prevent - note that Cheney was one of the PNAC plotters/authors), they most likely have a backup story that the buildings were wired after the 1995 WTC bombing attack so that, if the building were at risk of collapse, they could bring it down safely, rather than risk the domino effect of having a large chunk of downtown Manhattan collapse.

    So we are back with just one question at most. Who plotted and planned the events of 9/11? Clearly Israel and the Zionist neo-cons who took power 8 months before the event. Note also that control of the WTC was handed over to Zionist Jew Silverstein from the New York Port Authority only a few months before the event. During that time, there was a lot of nighttime work in the "elevator shafts" - IMO, Mossad agents planting the explosives (there is of course substantial evidence for this) - and Silverstein ended up making out like a bandit with his insurance proceeds.

    I am amazed. I can't immediately see any obvious flaws and BS! That's a first.

    Where does WTC 7 fit into that. Just a chance bonus?

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  211. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 11:12 pm GMT • 100 Words @CalDre Pilots for 9/11 Truth gave physical reasons why the WTC planes couldn't have been 767s. Their conclusion on this point has been disputed (e.g., see "Debunked: Pilots for 9/11 Truth WTC Speeds"). I don't know what planes were involved exactly but the official story says it was 767s and I have not yet been convinced otherwise. Regardless, a 757 is just as easily remote controlled.

    that seems hard to reconcile with what is known about UA 175 . And what is that? The supposed call from Amy Sweeney and Betty Ong to American Airlines on an Airfone? This could be easily faked. Bear in mind that, aside from the 19 cavedwellers, the other suspect is a CIA/Mossad joint op, meaning, the most sophisticated intelligence and black ops outfits in history. Thus, when exploring alternative explanations, you need to account for the capabilities of these agencies, not that of the proverbial Joe Shmoe.

    I can't see why the undoubtedly suicidal Arabs shouldn't have knowingly acted as backup against either passenger or pilot interference and as partly trained pilots if the technology didn't work satisfactorily. It's certainly possible they engaged in a suicide attack, but IMO unlikely given their behavior leading up to their mission.

    I don't know enough about Islam or its institutions to have any reason to believe or deny that they would have lived it up in sinful ways on the eve of martyrdom which would deliver them to paradise. Do you? There is a useful article entitled "The Concept of Martyrdom in Islam" on the al-Islam website. The idea of martyrdom involes complete submission and devotion to God. Engaging in major sins immediately before dieing for God is absolutely non-sensical. Both strip clubs and alcohol are strictly forbidden in Islam.

    I'm afraid this is leading me to Ockham's Razor . Ockham's Razos is a somewhat useful tiebreaker in scientific theories; it is wholly inapplicable to solving crimes.

    partly trained Arab pilots would do nicely as four planes flown by Al Qaeda connected jihadis would serve the plotters purposes adequately. This may be true in theory, but in practice, when one looks at the maneovers the planes underwent, it is questionable if even the most sophisticated pilots could have flown the planes as the official story requires. It is impossible that untrained civilians could have done so (and, of course, even if one were to apply Ockham's Razor, impossibile or exceedingly improbable theories are ruled out, the tiebreaker applies to multiple theories which equally explain the same phenomenon).

    Of course it doesn't tell us who the plotters were. The reasoning applies to false flag plotters who wanted a war in the ME though I don't accept that they would have been so sure of making the connection to Saddam Hussein that they would have plotted 911 to achieve a war against Iraq. There was no connection to Saddam Hussein, it was entirely fabricated (and in a quite sophisticated manner). But if you read the PNAC (neo-cons) treatise "Rebuilding America's Defenses", they do make reference to a "Pearl-Harbor like attack" which would allow them to implement their agenda, which includes re-shaping the Middle East (for the benefit of Israel). These same PNAC authors, who wrote this treatise, were in power at the time of 9/11.

    If the plotters were Mossad or American it would have been vital to minimise risk of exposure and therefore failure – actually worse than failure – so it is absurd to suppose that they would take the risk of packing any buildings with explosives – let alone WTC 7! – or risk remnants being found in the debris. I think it was important to their objective that the buildings collapse so that there was a large number of casualties as well as the desired "shock and awe" effect. And also I do not think pre-wiring the buildings was that risky: if they were caught (which they had no reason to believe, as they would have been responsible for the investigation, which they effectively managed to prevent - note that Cheney was one of the PNAC plotters/authors), they most likely have a backup story that the buildings were wired after the 1995 WTC bombing attack so that, if the building were at risk of collapse, they could bring it down safely, rather than risk the domino effect of having a large chunk of downtown Manhattan collapse.

    So we are back with just one question at most. Who plotted and planned the events of 9/11? Clearly Israel and the Zionist neo-cons who took power 8 months before the event. Note also that control of the WTC was handed over to Zionist Jew Silverstein from the New York Port Authority only a few months before the event. During that time, there was a lot of nighttime work in the "elevator shafts" - IMO, Mossad agents planting the explosives (there is of course substantial evidence for this) - and Silverstein ended up making out like a bandit with his insurance proceeds.

    I was back on UA 175 difficulties and reflecting on the fakeability of a lot of calls (said by some to have been technically impossible I recall) when I saw how the most plausible version of your version must work out.

    UA 175 was always meant to crash somewhere after a real or apparent fight with the terrorists. (But how do you get up that fight to cover the diversion?) It's exactly the kind of distraction I would have planned into that op. Maybe the devout Islamists on that flight – or just one or two of them – knew that they were going to die (check night club CCTV:-) ) and maybe even knew that UA175 was a diversion in a bigger plan.

    Wow I think I have a new career for my next lifetime. Would you care to buy some shares in my FakeMarsLanding Inc float?

    • Replies: @CalDre I was back on UA 175 difficulties . Again I'm not sure what you are referring to. UA 175 was the one that crashed into the South Tower. Did you mean the one that crashed in Pennsylvania, UA 93?

    As to the phone calls, I would note, they are also entirely consistent with the stewardesses believing they were partaking in a drill. It is known a drill of planes being hijacked and flown into buildings was being conducted that day. In part this drill explanation is supported by the contention that the pilots, too, were forced to the back of a plane by a small man holding a box cutter. The pilot was a huge ex-military guy and a pilot should never leave the cockpit, particularly not to terrorists.

    As to WTC 7, it's anyone's guess what happened there. My guess is that UA 93 was meant to crash into that tower, but since it crashed in Pennsylvania, WTC 7 was left standing, but they hit the "Boom" button anyway, perhaps to hide the fact that it was pre-wired, perhaps because there was something in it they wanted destroyed, I don't have the answer, in large part because no proper investigation was ever conducted.

    Cheers Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  212. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 11:19 pm GMT @Buzz Mohawk You apparently have trouble accepting an accomplished fact that contradicts your pathetic, childish idea of what is possible or was possible at that time.

    You must not have much aptitude for physics or engineering or any hard science. I grasped it when I was age ten in ways you still can't. It wasn't childhood wonder, as you assume. It was a real understanding of what was being done. It was, at age ten, beyond what you even possess now.

    No one who has an understanding of physics and engineering principles thinks as you do. Yet you write such an insightful sounding piece of armchair psychology.

    The Apollo program was so far beyond your comprehension that you just have to write crap like what you wrote to me. We are now half a century after the fact, and fools like you fall for this garbage.

    Pathetic.

    For whatever reason, maybe ones Ron describes here, a conspiracy theory about Apollo has been floated for decades. Scientifically illiterate fools fall for it.

    Yes, as Ron implies, these things might be created just to drag more probable conspiracies into the same mental swamp in the public mind.

    This one conspiracy theory you fell for lies squarely in the category of the blindingly stupid.

    Unless I have missed relevant prolegomena from this Anonymous I think you have grossly overreacted to what he/she actually wrote. In a tellingly emotional way in fact. QED?

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk No, no overreaction, and no QED. The "prolegomena" is all the mediocrity over the years making it obvious that humanity is neither aware of nor worthy of its own greatest accomplishments.

    I'm not just talking about Apollo now. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  213. CalDre says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 7, 2016 at 11:44 pm GMT • 200 Words @Wizard of Oz I was back on UA 175 difficulties and reflecting on the fakeability of a lot of calls (said by some to have been technically impossible I recall) when I saw how the most plausible version of your version must work out.

    UA 175 was always meant to crash somewhere after a real or apparent fight with the terrorists. (But how do you get up that fight to cover the diversion?) It's exactly the kind of distraction I would have planned into that op. Maybe the devout Islamists on that flight - or just one or two of them - knew that they were going to die (check night club CCTV:-) ) and maybe even knew that UA175 was a diversion in a bigger plan.

    Wow I think I have a new career for my next lifetime. Would you care to buy some shares in my FakeMarsLanding Inc float?

    I was back on UA 175 difficulties . Again I'm not sure what you are referring to. UA 175 was the one that crashed into the South Tower. Did you mean the one that crashed in Pennsylvania, UA 93?

    As to the phone calls, I would note, they are also entirely consistent with the stewardesses believing they were partaking in a drill. It is known a drill of planes being hijacked and flown into buildings was being conducted that day. In part this drill explanation is supported by the contention that the pilots, too, were forced to the back of a plane by a small man holding a box cutter. The pilot was a huge ex-military guy and a pilot should never leave the cockpit, particularly not to terrorists.

    As to WTC 7, it's anyone's guess what happened there. My guess is that UA 93 was meant to crash into that tower, but since it crashed in Pennsylvania, WTC 7 was left standing, but they hit the "Boom" button anyway, perhaps to hide the fact that it was pre-wired, perhaps because there was something in it they wanted destroyed, I don't have the answer, in large part because no proper investigation was ever conducted.

    Cheers

    • Replies: @NosytheDuke SEC evidence concerning massive fraud has been reported as having been destroyed in WTC7 , @Wizard of Oz Sorry did I get that wrong? Yes you guessed right about which plane I meant.

    Your answer that the charges had to be set off in WTC 7 to conceal the wiring is certainly not crazy but not very satisfactory. Ah, but yes, the fire that burned all day was set opportunistically after Flight 93 went AWOL.

    That leaves motive for including WTC 7 in the plot at all unless there was indeed something that had to hidden by destruction. Proof? Evidence?

    There were a lot of passenger calls from Flight 93 that I was referring to. Are you amongst those who deny the technical feasibility? One way or another there seems to be a problem there with the conspiracy versions.

    And what's the explanation for UA 93 not being adequately controlled by computer or remotely if it was intended for WTC 7. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  214. Dave37 says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 1:13 am GMT @Bill Jones So no freedom of speech in your little world then.

    Sure, if I can have some revenge for annoying AHs.

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  215. NosytheDuke says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 2:27 am GMT @CalDre I was back on UA 175 difficulties . Again I'm not sure what you are referring to. UA 175 was the one that crashed into the South Tower. Did you mean the one that crashed in Pennsylvania, UA 93?

    As to the phone calls, I would note, they are also entirely consistent with the stewardesses believing they were partaking in a drill. It is known a drill of planes being hijacked and flown into buildings was being conducted that day. In part this drill explanation is supported by the contention that the pilots, too, were forced to the back of a plane by a small man holding a box cutter. The pilot was a huge ex-military guy and a pilot should never leave the cockpit, particularly not to terrorists.

    As to WTC 7, it's anyone's guess what happened there. My guess is that UA 93 was meant to crash into that tower, but since it crashed in Pennsylvania, WTC 7 was left standing, but they hit the "Boom" button anyway, perhaps to hide the fact that it was pre-wired, perhaps because there was something in it they wanted destroyed, I don't have the answer, in large part because no proper investigation was ever conducted.

    Cheers

    SEC evidence concerning massive fraud has been reported as having been destroyed in WTC7

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz That needs a lot of fleshing out. All the evidence - originals, copies, backups - in one place? Maybe there is someone with proof quietly living off the pay offs for his blackmail. What would be really unlikely however is that no one has come out with anything like "I wondered why AB, the bossof the evidence management division was ordering all outside copies and backups to be destroyed and found his reasons to be very unsatisfactory". Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  216. Buzz Mohawk says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 3:22 am GMT @Wizard of Oz Unless I have missed relevant prolegomena from this Anonymous I think you have grossly overreacted to what he/she actually wrote. In a tellingly emotional way in fact. QED?

    No, no overreaction, and no QED. The "prolegomena" is all the mediocrity over the years making it obvious that humanity is neither aware of nor worthy of its own greatest accomplishments.

    I'm not just talking about Apollo now.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz Another amazing experience of finding something in UR which one might agree with - and you didn't even assault my slightly dodgy use of "prolegomena" with, for example, a sneering accusation that I seemed to think it meant "things previously said". Mind you I would have shown confident insouciance with the Humpty Dumpty response and diverted attention to the misuse of "protagonist". As to which I have long been hoping to say straight-faced to an actor "I loved your role as Deuteragonist/Tritoganist in......[The Erotic Adventures of Mickey Mouse or some other famous recovered masterpiece]". Where does one put the accent on protagonist do you think to further the pretence that one is a classical scholar? (Bonus question for 0 marks). Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  217. Marie says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 4:01 am GMT • 100 Words

    Literally every article I've ever read about conservatives and/or the conservative movement within the pages of the New Yorker – and I've read going back decades, unfortunately – has judiciously referenced 'The Paranoid Style in American Politics'.

    I mean, EVERY SINGLE article regarding Republicans, conservatives and/or opposition to leftism has the Hofstadter quote somewhere – it must be a staple on the J-School syllabi.

    It seems Prof. Hofstadter was something of an adherent to the Frankfurt School nonsense – Marxism-meets-dime-store-Freud being every New Yorker writer's stock in trade, of course

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  218. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 5:15 am GMT • 100 Words @Buzz Mohawk No, no overreaction, and no QED. The "prolegomena" is all the mediocrity over the years making it obvious that humanity is neither aware of nor worthy of its own greatest accomplishments.

    I'm not just talking about Apollo now.

    Another amazing experience of finding something in UR which one might agree with – and you didn't even assault my slightly dodgy use of "prolegomena" with, for example, a sneering accusation that I seemed to think it meant "things previously said". Mind you I would have shown confident insouciance with the Humpty Dumpty response and diverted attention to the misuse of "protagonist". As to which I have long been hoping to say straight-faced to an actor "I loved your role as Deuteragonist/Tritoganist in [The Erotic Adventures of Mickey Mouse or some other famous recovered masterpiece]". Where does one put the accent on protagonist do you think to further the pretence that one is a classical scholar? (Bonus question for 0 marks).

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  219. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 5:38 am GMT • 100 Words @CalDre I was back on UA 175 difficulties . Again I'm not sure what you are referring to. UA 175 was the one that crashed into the South Tower. Did you mean the one that crashed in Pennsylvania, UA 93?

    As to the phone calls, I would note, they are also entirely consistent with the stewardesses believing they were partaking in a drill. It is known a drill of planes being hijacked and flown into buildings was being conducted that day. In part this drill explanation is supported by the contention that the pilots, too, were forced to the back of a plane by a small man holding a box cutter. The pilot was a huge ex-military guy and a pilot should never leave the cockpit, particularly not to terrorists.

    As to WTC 7, it's anyone's guess what happened there. My guess is that UA 93 was meant to crash into that tower, but since it crashed in Pennsylvania, WTC 7 was left standing, but they hit the "Boom" button anyway, perhaps to hide the fact that it was pre-wired, perhaps because there was something in it they wanted destroyed, I don't have the answer, in large part because no proper investigation was ever conducted.

    Cheers

    Sorry did I get that wrong? Yes you guessed right about which plane I meant.

    Your answer that the charges had to be set off in WTC 7 to conceal the wiring is certainly not crazy but not very satisfactory. Ah, but yes, the fire that burned all day was set opportunistically after Flight 93 went AWOL.

    That leaves motive for including WTC 7 in the plot at all unless there was indeed something that had to hidden by destruction. Proof? Evidence?

    There were a lot of passenger calls from Flight 93 that I was referring to. Are you amongst those who deny the technical feasibility? One way or another there seems to be a problem there with the conspiracy versions.

    And what's the explanation for UA 93 not being adequately controlled by computer or remotely if it was intended for WTC 7.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    Proof? Evidence?
    Excuse me, under the previous American Pravda articles by Ron, I specifically asked you to outline the strongest evidence available that the government story on 9/11 is substantially true, i.e. Osama Bin Laden, Al Qaeda etcetera.

    In response, you wrote a long series of twaddles, idiotic non-sequitirs interspersed with vile ad hominem and never produced a single piece of evidence.

    NOTHING. There is a clear electronic record of this:`

    Here: http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-did-the-us-plan-a-nuclear-first-strike-against-russia-in-the-early-1960s/#comment-1532488

    and here: http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-alexander-cockburn-and-the-british-spies/#comment-1550686

    I continually ask the shit eaters such as yourself what is the evidence for this government story. You never ever every provide any! In general, you end up falling back on the ridiculous position that the government story being the government story is proof!

    Well, eventually, I always corner you on this. Always. You end up having to walk away, but never have the minimal honesty to simply admit that you cannot produce any evidence because you have none.

    And then within a few days or so after that, you are back, quibbling with some other person asking them to produce evidence of something or other.

    I will reiterate. If you want to turn over a new leaf and be an honest, decent person, you should do one of two things:

    1. Outline what you think the strongest evidence for the government story is.
    2. Admit that you have no evidence.

    There are no other logical possibilities. What is it? 1. or 2.? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  220. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 5:53 am GMT • 100 Words @NosytheDuke SEC evidence concerning massive fraud has been reported as having been destroyed in WTC7

    That needs a lot of fleshing out. All the evidence – originals, copies, backups – in one place? Maybe there is someone with proof quietly living off the pay offs for his blackmail. What would be really unlikely however is that no one has come out with anything like "I wondered why AB, the bossof the evidence management division was ordering all outside copies and backups to be destroyed and found his reasons to be very unsatisfactory".

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  221. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 8:11 am GMT • 200 Words @CanSpeccy There must be hundreds of millions of words accessible on the Internet discussing the collapse of WTC Building 7. Why then foul up this discussion with the reiteration of arguments that anyone with an interest in the specifics of 9/11 will already know or can find out elsewhere?

    And why doesn't that apply precisely to just about everything you have posted and how come you can't see it – or think you can get away with others not noticing?

    And where have you complained about the constant reiteration of the symmetrical fall alleged impossibility, the particles of thermite, the steel couldn't have been melted nonsense (it wasn't melting that was the point), the forewarning to the BBC and, not least, the failure to account for the videos of the fires burning all day in WTC 7 and what that could have resulted in.

    My particular analysis of motive I have neither seen emphasised by anyone else nor answered on UR at all. Have you? Or seen it dealt with elsewhere as you imply?

    As it happens there is now an exception. Just about the first UR commenter to doubt something like the official 9/11 story that has not only a respectably functioning intellect but has deployed it on the issue. See posts by CalDre on this thread and my conversation with him.

    Acttually there is indeed a question of motive on WTC 7 (if it was demolished by explosives) left well unanswered by anything but the supposition that there was something within that needed to be destroyed of which there were no copies.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy WizOz, what are you on about? I've read your comment twice and can make no sense of it.

    But here's a question about 9/11 from esteemed Unz Review contributor Paul Craig Roberts:

    Who are the real conspiracy kooks, the majority who disbelieve the official lies or the minority who believe the official lies?
    True, his designation of the official story as lies is question begging, but it fairly places the onus of responsibility for establishing what happened on 9/11 with those who uphold the official conspiracy theory, which is now widely disbelieved.

    Time, in other words, for a real, competent, and open, forensic investigation. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  222. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 8:45 am GMT • 200 Words @Wizard of Oz Sorry did I get that wrong? Yes you guessed right about which plane I meant.

    Your answer that the charges had to be set off in WTC 7 to conceal the wiring is certainly not crazy but not very satisfactory. Ah, but yes, the fire that burned all day was set opportunistically after Flight 93 went AWOL.

    That leaves motive for including WTC 7 in the plot at all unless there was indeed something that had to hidden by destruction. Proof? Evidence?

    There were a lot of passenger calls from Flight 93 that I was referring to. Are you amongst those who deny the technical feasibility? One way or another there seems to be a problem there with the conspiracy versions.

    And what's the explanation for UA 93 not being adequately controlled by computer or remotely if it was intended for WTC 7.

    Proof? Evidence?

    Excuse me, under the previous American Pravda articles by Ron, I specifically asked you to outline the strongest evidence available that the government story on 9/11 is substantially true, i.e. Osama Bin Laden, Al Qaeda etcetera.

    In response, you wrote a long series of twaddles, idiotic non-sequitirs interspersed with vile ad hominem and never produced a single piece of evidence.

    NOTHING. There is a clear electronic record of this:`

    Here: http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-did-the-us-plan-a-nuclear-first-strike-against-russia-in-the-early-1960s/#comment-1532488

    and here: http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-alexander-cockburn-and-the-british-spies/#comment-1550686

    I continually ask the shit eaters such as yourself what is the evidence for this government story. You never ever every provide any! In general, you end up falling back on the ridiculous position that the government story being the government story is proof!

    Well, eventually, I always corner you on this. Always. You end up having to walk away, but never have the minimal honesty to simply admit that you cannot produce any evidence because you have none.

    And then within a few days or so after that, you are back, quibbling with some other person asking them to produce evidence of something or other.

    I will reiterate. If you want to turn over a new leaf and be an honest, decent person, you should do one of two things:

    1. Outline what you think the strongest evidence for the government story is.
    2. Admit that you have no evidence.

    There are no other logical possibilities. What is it? 1. or 2.?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz Fortunately I have missed most of your agitated comments directed at me, including the repetitious stuff which, contrary to what the preceding paragraphs led me to expect, proved to be just you quoting yourself.

    In the meantime I have come across someone who is almost unique in my experience of those whose reaction to the official reports [note that it is or ought to be plural] on 9/11 matters is to respond with scepticism as a minimum. CalDre with whom I have exchanged comments writes with intelligence and civility that makes rational conversation not only possible but agreeable.

    Your performances are, by contrast, a case for diagnosis. Are they attempts at persuasion by rational argument, or at persuasion at all? On the face of it the insulting language would rule that out unless it is understood as the kind of persuasion-by-bullying practised in the Gulag or Lubyanka.

    Well I don't get very excited by 9/11 matters and I get even less out of contemplating the frothings of those who do, so I shall take my leave of whoever or what "Jonathan Revusky" may be and confine any discussion of 9/11 matters to those who have demostrated at least a modicum of rational intelligence and civility. , @Wizard of Oz And BTW my querying reference to proof and evidence which you used as a hook for a generalised rant was about what might have been stored in WTC 7, without copies or backup, that needed to be destroyed. As I pointed out there were otherwise serious problems of motive raised by supposing WTC 7 was part of the plot. Do you condescend to detail? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  223. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 2:53 pm GMT

    By the looks of thsee incredibly stupid comments on 9/11 and the Holocaust, it seems doubtful that the CIA would need to do anything more than accurately describe the fringe theories currently in circulation.

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  224. CanSpeccy says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 3:00 pm GMT • 100 Words @Wizard of Oz And why doesn't that apply precisely to just about everything you have posted and how come you can't see it - or think you can get away with others not noticing?

    And where have you complained about the constant reiteration of the symmetrical fall alleged impossibility, the particles of thermite, the steel couldn't have been melted nonsense (it wasn't melting that was the point), the forewarning to the BBC and, not least, the failure to account for the videos of the fires burning all day in WTC 7 and what that could have resulted in.

    My particular analysis of motive I have neither seen emphasised by anyone else nor answered on UR at all. Have you? Or seen it dealt with elsewhere as you imply?

    As it happens there is now an exception. Just about the first UR commenter to doubt something like the official 9/11 story that has not only a respectably functioning intellect but has deployed it on the issue. See posts by CalDre on this thread and my conversation with him.

    Acttually there is indeed a question of motive on WTC 7 (if it was demolished by explosives) left well unanswered by anything but the supposition that there was something within that needed to be destroyed of which there were no copies.

    WizOz, what are you on about? I've read your comment twice and can make no sense of it.

    But here's a question about 9/11 from esteemed Unz Review contributor Paul Craig Roberts:

    Who are the real conspiracy kooks, the majority who disbelieve the official lies or the minority who believe the official lies?

    True, his designation of the official story as lies is question begging, but it fairly places the onus of responsibility for establishing what happened on 9/11 with those who uphold the official conspiracy theory, which is now widely disbelieved.

    Time, in other words, for a real, competent, and open, forensic investigation.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz I hope you understood at least that I was saying your #174 comment was at best a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Beyond that i can't help beyond suggesting you have a good sleep, a cold shower, and try again.

    It's no use quoting PCR to me. Indeed calling him esteemed casts doubt on our sharing the same planet as I read quite a few of his effusions and eventually joined those who had written him down as a crank, and not even one from whom one could pick up useful or interesting facts or stimulating cogently reasoned ideas. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  225. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 3:10 pm GMT • 200 Words

    1. Outline what you think the strongest evidence for the government story is.

    All of it. What kind of nonsense question is this? You can read the evidence in multiple places. And we already know what your response is to every single bit of evidence: "The Government faked it!"

    So if someone were to say "Osama Bin Laden admitted to planinng the attack on video," you would say "Bin Laden was a robot created by the CIA" or whatever your moronic theory is.

    If someone said "We know that Atta and the other hijackers were taking flight training and that they had meetings in Afghanistan planning the attacks," then you would say "They were rehearsing a play!" or something that is actually somewhat dumber than that.

    "There are no other logical possibilities. What is it? 1. or 2.?"

    Allow me to present a third alternative:

    3. Arguing with conspiracy theorists is a huge waste of time because they have no idea what they are talking about and are so ideologically blinded that they will never accept any evidence no matter how convincing and authoritative.

    See? Even in the meta-discussion of this conspiracy, your logic is flawed.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    1. Outline what you think the strongest evidence for the government story is.
    All of it. What kind of nonsense question is this?
    Hey, shit eater, can't you read? I didn't say "all of it". I said outline the strongest evidence available. I worded it that way because I anticipate the shit eater response that... oh, there is just so much evidence that you can't possibly outline it all! So I just said, "outline the strongest evidence". NOT all of it .

    What is the strongest evidence available, in your opinion that the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated from Afghanistan by a bearded religious fanatic named Osama bin Laden?

    Anyway, asking for the evidence is not a "nonsense question". Well, it is if you're a shit eater, because if you're a shit eater, you eat up whatever bullshit they throw in your general direction, so they said it on the TV so it's true, and there is no need for any actual evidence.

    I understand the shit eater mentality.


    So if someone were to say "Osama Bin Laden admitted to planinng the attack on video,"
    Okay, is that your answer? Is that the strongest evidence available?
    If someone said "We know that Atta and the other hijackers were taking flight training and that they had meetings in Afghanistan planning the attacks,"
    Okay, that they were at the flight school is proof that they flew buildings in to skyscrapers. That's what you're saying? Okay, is that the strongest evidence available or is it the aforementioned videos?

    As for the meetings in Afghanistan, uhh, that is claimed. What is the proof of that? They took minutes of the meeting and we have the records? There's a recording? Or is it just that they claimed that these meetings took place and it's just an unsubstantiated claim?


    3. Arguing with conspiracy theorists is a huge waste of time because they have no idea what they are talking about and are so ideologically blinded that they will never accept any evidence no matter how convincing and authoritative.
    Well, that's not what's happening in these exchanges. What keeps happening is that I keep asking what the evidence is and nobody provides any.

    You say the evidence is the video of Bin Laden? Well, there's expert opinion that the videos are fake. But, in any case, if a plane flies into a building tomorrow on the other side of the world, in China say, I could immediately put up a video claiming that I made this happen. Would that be hard proof?

    And pointing to some guys who were in a flight school, therefore they hijacked the planes... this is not strong proof. In general, the proof cannot be equally consistent with the people people being patsies. It's like claiming that Oswald was in the vicinity there when the thing went down. Well, of course he was, he had to be because he was the patsy, so they could frame him. He couldn't be off in Timbuktu at the time, because then he'd have an alibi!

    You have to be able to claim the guys went to a flight school, and thus knew how to fly the plane, because otherwise the whole story is a non-starter.

    There is no proof of the story that withstands the laugh test. Anybody who has seriously looked into this knows that.

    Arguing with a shit eater is a waste of time, because when you ask them for the evidence for whatever bullshit they have gobbled up, they never concede that THEY SIMPLY HAVE NONE. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  226. bunga says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 3:11 pm GMT • 100 Words

    The turning point was the beheadings last month of two US journalists by members of the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant, or Isis. Once videos of their killings were posted on the internet by Isis, their deaths amounted to virtual public executions.
    Bill McInturff, a Republican-aligned pollster who along with a Democratic colleague conducts the closely watched Wall Street Journal/NBC poll, said the change in public opinion had been "sudden". That poll showed 61 per cent of respondents thought military action against Isis was in America's national interest." – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/09/arabs-rouhani-matthews/#sthash.xX4Cnzub.dpuf

    Do American warmongers need a theory? Anything will do. The sheeple will pass flatulence and think they are clearing the air .

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  227. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 4:38 pm GMT • 100 Words @CanSpeccy WizOz, what are you on about? I've read your comment twice and can make no sense of it.

    But here's a question about 9/11 from esteemed Unz Review contributor Paul Craig Roberts:

    Who are the real conspiracy kooks, the majority who disbelieve the official lies or the minority who believe the official lies?
    True, his designation of the official story as lies is question begging, but it fairly places the onus of responsibility for establishing what happened on 9/11 with those who uphold the official conspiracy theory, which is now widely disbelieved.

    Time, in other words, for a real, competent, and open, forensic investigation.

    I hope you understood at least that I was saying your #174 comment was at best a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Beyond that i can't help beyond suggesting you have a good sleep, a cold shower, and try again.

    It's no use quoting PCR to me. Indeed calling him esteemed casts doubt on our sharing the same planet as I read quite a few of his effusions and eventually joined those who had written him down as a crank, and not even one from whom one could pick up useful or interesting facts or stimulating cogently reasoned ideas.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    I was saying your #174 comment was at best a case of the pot calling the kettle black
    But you said it in five unintelligible paragraphs instead, perhaps to conceal that there was no logical basis to your claim.

    As for your contempt for Unz Review contributor, PCR, it makes one wonder why you hang around here so much. Are you, perhaps, one of Cass Sunstein's boys ? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  228. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 5:12 pm GMT • 200 Words @Jonathan Revusky
    Proof? Evidence?
    Excuse me, under the previous American Pravda articles by Ron, I specifically asked you to outline the strongest evidence available that the government story on 9/11 is substantially true, i.e. Osama Bin Laden, Al Qaeda etcetera.

    In response, you wrote a long series of twaddles, idiotic non-sequitirs interspersed with vile ad hominem and never produced a single piece of evidence.

    NOTHING. There is a clear electronic record of this:`

    Here: http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-did-the-us-plan-a-nuclear-first-strike-against-russia-in-the-early-1960s/#comment-1532488

    and here: http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-alexander-cockburn-and-the-british-spies/#comment-1550686

    I continually ask the shit eaters such as yourself what is the evidence for this government story. You never ever every provide any! In general, you end up falling back on the ridiculous position that the government story being the government story is proof!

    Well, eventually, I always corner you on this. Always. You end up having to walk away, but never have the minimal honesty to simply admit that you cannot produce any evidence because you have none.

    And then within a few days or so after that, you are back, quibbling with some other person asking them to produce evidence of something or other.

    I will reiterate. If you want to turn over a new leaf and be an honest, decent person, you should do one of two things:

    1. Outline what you think the strongest evidence for the government story is.
    2. Admit that you have no evidence.

    There are no other logical possibilities. What is it? 1. or 2.?

    Fortunately I have missed most of your agitated comments directed at me, including the repetitious stuff which, contrary to what the preceding paragraphs led me to expect, proved to be just you quoting yourself.

    In the meantime I have come across someone who is almost unique in my experience of those whose reaction to the official reports [note that it is or ought to be plural] on 9/11 matters is to respond with scepticism as a minimum. CalDre with whom I have exchanged comments writes with intelligence and civility that makes rational conversation not only possible but agreeable.

    Your performances are, by contrast, a case for diagnosis. Are they attempts at persuasion by rational argument, or at persuasion at all? On the face of it the insulting language would rule that out unless it is understood as the kind of persuasion-by-bullying practised in the Gulag or Lubyanka.

    Well I don't get very excited by 9/11 matters and I get even less out of contemplating the frothings of those who do, so I shall take my leave of whoever or what "Jonathan Revusky" may be and confine any discussion of 9/11 matters to those who have demostrated at least a modicum of rational intelligence and civility.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    Fortunately I have missed most of your agitated comments directed at me,
    Uh huh, yeah right, except there is a problem with what you are saying. The problem is this: YOU ARE LYING YOUR ASS OFF.

    You did not fail to respond to my last posts because you "missed" my "agitated comments". You failed to respond because you were cornered and had no response. Everybody who was reading the exchange (possibly nobody or many people, I dunno...) knows this.

    Specifically, you tried the sophomoric trick of trying to claim that the proof of the government's story was that it was the government's story.

    I said no dice, you can't do that and you were out of bullets and walked away. That was here:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-alexander-cockburn-and-the-british-spies/#comment-1550686

    The reason that this comment went with no reply from you was because you were cornered and could not reply.

    Or, if you can, fine. So it's just back to where were were at. Please outline the best available evidence for the US govt story (Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda etc.) or admit that there is no real evidence.

    so I shall take my leave of whoever or what "Jonathan Revusky" may be and confine any discussion of 9/11 matters to those who have demonstrated at least a modicum of rational intelligence and civility.
    TRANSLATION: "I will only debate with people who let me get away with murder in the debate. this "Jonathan Revusky" doesn't let me get away with this shit, like that the government's story is proof of the government's story so obviously I can't debate with him. Oh, I'll pretend that I don't debate with him because of his horrible personality, though, not because I am incapable of it..."

    The issue is obviously not my deplorable personality. The issue is that I posed the completely legitimate question of what is the best evidence available of the US govt story on 9/11. You obviously cannot reply because there is no evidence for the story and you are trying to blow smoke to avoid conceding that point. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  229. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 5:31 pm GMT • 100 Words @Jonathan Revusky
    Proof? Evidence?
    Excuse me, under the previous American Pravda articles by Ron, I specifically asked you to outline the strongest evidence available that the government story on 9/11 is substantially true, i.e. Osama Bin Laden, Al Qaeda etcetera.

    In response, you wrote a long series of twaddles, idiotic non-sequitirs interspersed with vile ad hominem and never produced a single piece of evidence.

    NOTHING. There is a clear electronic record of this:`

    Here: http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-did-the-us-plan-a-nuclear-first-strike-against-russia-in-the-early-1960s/#comment-1532488

    and here: http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-alexander-cockburn-and-the-british-spies/#comment-1550686

    I continually ask the shit eaters such as yourself what is the evidence for this government story. You never ever every provide any! In general, you end up falling back on the ridiculous position that the government story being the government story is proof!

    Well, eventually, I always corner you on this. Always. You end up having to walk away, but never have the minimal honesty to simply admit that you cannot produce any evidence because you have none.

    And then within a few days or so after that, you are back, quibbling with some other person asking them to produce evidence of something or other.

    I will reiterate. If you want to turn over a new leaf and be an honest, decent person, you should do one of two things:

    1. Outline what you think the strongest evidence for the government story is.
    2. Admit that you have no evidence.

    There are no other logical possibilities. What is it? 1. or 2.?

    And BTW my querying reference to proof and evidence which you used as a hook for a generalised rant was about what might have been stored in WTC 7, without copies or backup, that needed to be destroyed. As I pointed out there were otherwise serious problems of motive raised by supposing WTC 7 was part of the plot. Do you condescend to detail?

    Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  230. CanSpeccy says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 5:43 pm GMT • 100 Words @Wizard of Oz I hope you understood at least that I was saying your #174 comment was at best a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Beyond that i can't help beyond suggesting you have a good sleep, a cold shower, and try again.

    It's no use quoting PCR to me. Indeed calling him esteemed casts doubt on our sharing the same planet as I read quite a few of his effusions and eventually joined those who had written him down as a crank, and not even one from whom one could pick up useful or interesting facts or stimulating cogently reasoned ideas.

    I was saying your #174 comment was at best a case of the pot calling the kettle black

    But you said it in five unintelligible paragraphs instead, perhaps to conceal that there was no logical basis to your claim.

    As for your contempt for Unz Review contributor, PCR, it makes one wonder why you hang around here so much. Are you, perhaps, one of Cass Sunstein's boys ?

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    Are you, perhaps, one of Cass Sunstein's boys?
    As best I understand, this Wizard of Oz creep is some kind of elderly lawyer down in Australia. A real sleazebag shyster type lawyer, perhaps the Aussie equivalent of Alan Dershowitz.

    He has a certain bag of tricks that he uses to blow smoke. This guy is an absolutely disgusting individual and it's really nauseating to interact with him. Maybe it's just a waste of time because surely most everybody sees through this guy's charlatanry by now.

    My approach has just been to try to corner him into admitting that he has no evidence for the official 9/11 story. By now, he has tried every sophomoric trick, like claiming that the onus on me to prove something to him, or then claiming that the proof of the government story is the government story. Now, he is claiming that he won't respond because of my deplorable personality.

    It's like he has a bag of tricks that he goes through. "Oh, that one didn't work, so now I'll try this one..."

    The guy really is just disgusting. A real piece of shit. But regarding your Cass Sunstein allusion, I have no idea. It is hard to see why somebody would do what Wizard does here just on his own dime, with this level of persistence, if there was nothing in it for him. But I dunno. It's hard to fathom the psychology of some people. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  231. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 6:59 pm GMT @CanSpeccy But if you really want a short, clear, definitive, irrefutable and conclusive debunking of 9/11 Truther theories here it is :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98

    I love it!

    Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  232. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 8:29 pm GMT • 300 Words @Wizard of Oz Fortunately I have missed most of your agitated comments directed at me, including the repetitious stuff which, contrary to what the preceding paragraphs led me to expect, proved to be just you quoting yourself.

    In the meantime I have come across someone who is almost unique in my experience of those whose reaction to the official reports [note that it is or ought to be plural] on 9/11 matters is to respond with scepticism as a minimum. CalDre with whom I have exchanged comments writes with intelligence and civility that makes rational conversation not only possible but agreeable.

    Your performances are, by contrast, a case for diagnosis. Are they attempts at persuasion by rational argument, or at persuasion at all? On the face of it the insulting language would rule that out unless it is understood as the kind of persuasion-by-bullying practised in the Gulag or Lubyanka.

    Well I don't get very excited by 9/11 matters and I get even less out of contemplating the frothings of those who do, so I shall take my leave of whoever or what "Jonathan Revusky" may be and confine any discussion of 9/11 matters to those who have demostrated at least a modicum of rational intelligence and civility.

    Fortunately I have missed most of your agitated comments directed at me,

    Uh huh, yeah right, except there is a problem with what you are saying. The problem is this: YOU ARE LYING YOUR ASS OFF.

    You did not fail to respond to my last posts because you "missed" my "agitated comments". You failed to respond because you were cornered and had no response. Everybody who was reading the exchange (possibly nobody or many people, I dunno ) knows this.

    Specifically, you tried the sophomoric trick of trying to claim that the proof of the government's story was that it was the government's story.

    I said no dice, you can't do that and you were out of bullets and walked away. That was here:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-alexander-cockburn-and-the-british-spies/#comment-1550686

    The reason that this comment went with no reply from you was because you were cornered and could not reply.

    Or, if you can, fine. So it's just back to where were were at. Please outline the best available evidence for the US govt story (Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda etc.) or admit that there is no real evidence.

    so I shall take my leave of whoever or what "Jonathan Revusky" may be and confine any discussion of 9/11 matters to those who have demonstrated at least a modicum of rational intelligence and civility.

    TRANSLATION: "I will only debate with people who let me get away with murder in the debate. this "Jonathan Revusky" doesn't let me get away with this shit, like that the government's story is proof of the government's story so obviously I can't debate with him. Oh, I'll pretend that I don't debate with him because of his horrible personality, though, not because I am incapable of it "

    The issue is obviously not my deplorable personality. The issue is that I posed the completely legitimate question of what is the best evidence available of the US govt story on 9/11. You obviously cannot reply because there is no evidence for the story and you are trying to blow smoke to avoid conceding that point.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy Actually, Jonathan, WizOz is absolutely correct in identifying you - a critic of the official 9/11 story - as a crackpot conspiracy theorist. This is simply a matter of definition, as Ron Unz explains. CIA-inspired media usage has defined the questioning of official history as crackpot conspiracy theorizing.

    A crackpot conspiracy theory, so defined, may, of course, be entirely correct and it may be obviously correct to a normally intelligent person presented with the relevant evidence. But it is still consistent with current media usage to call it a crackpot conspiracy theory.

    Likewise, in accordance with current media usage, any official theory is correct because it is official, although at the same time it may be total bollocks.

    In fact, any theory that is quite consistently labelled a crackpot conspiracy theory by the media is almost certainly at least in part true, since otherwise failing institutions such as the New York Times and the PuffHo would not waste their diminishing capital of credibility by mocking it. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  233. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 8:45 pm GMT • 600 Words @Boris
    1. Outline what you think the strongest evidence for the government story is.
    All of it. What kind of nonsense question is this? You can read the evidence in multiple places. And we already know what your response is to every single bit of evidence: "The Government faked it!"

    So if someone were to say "Osama Bin Laden admitted to planinng the attack on video," you would say "Bin Laden was a robot created by the CIA" or whatever your moronic theory is.

    If someone said "We know that Atta and the other hijackers were taking flight training and that they had meetings in Afghanistan planning the attacks," then you would say "They were rehearsing a play!" or something that is actually somewhat dumber than that.

    "There are no other logical possibilities. What is it? 1. or 2.?"

    Allow me to present a third alternative:

    3. Arguing with conspiracy theorists is a huge waste of time because they have no idea what they are talking about and are so ideologically blinded that they will never accept any evidence no matter how convincing and authoritative.

    See? Even in the meta-discussion of this conspiracy, your logic is flawed.

    1. Outline what you think the strongest evidence for the government story is.

    All of it. What kind of nonsense question is this?

    Hey, shit eater, can't you read? I didn't say "all of it". I said outline the strongest evidence available. I worded it that way because I anticipate the shit eater response that oh, there is just so much evidence that you can't possibly outline it all! So I just said, "outline the strongest evidence". NOT all of it .

    What is the strongest evidence available, in your opinion that the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated from Afghanistan by a bearded religious fanatic named Osama bin Laden?

    Anyway, asking for the evidence is not a "nonsense question". Well, it is if you're a shit eater, because if you're a shit eater, you eat up whatever bullshit they throw in your general direction, so they said it on the TV so it's true, and there is no need for any actual evidence.

    I understand the shit eater mentality.

    So if someone were to say "Osama Bin Laden admitted to planinng the attack on video,"

    Okay, is that your answer? Is that the strongest evidence available?

    [MORE]

    If someone said "We know that Atta and the other hijackers were taking flight training and that they had meetings in Afghanistan planning the attacks,"

    Okay, that they were at the flight school is proof that they flew buildings in to skyscrapers. That's what you're saying? Okay, is that the strongest evidence available or is it the aforementioned videos?

    As for the meetings in Afghanistan, uhh, that is claimed. What is the proof of that? They took minutes of the meeting and we have the records? There's a recording? Or is it just that they claimed that these meetings took place and it's just an unsubstantiated claim?

    3. Arguing with conspiracy theorists is a huge waste of time because they have no idea what they are talking about and are so ideologically blinded that they will never accept any evidence no matter how convincing and authoritative.

    Well, that's not what's happening in these exchanges. What keeps happening is that I keep asking what the evidence is and nobody provides any.

    You say the evidence is the video of Bin Laden? Well, there's expert opinion that the videos are fake. But, in any case, if a plane flies into a building tomorrow on the other side of the world, in China say, I could immediately put up a video claiming that I made this happen. Would that be hard proof?

    And pointing to some guys who were in a flight school, therefore they hijacked the planes this is not strong proof. In general, the proof cannot be equally consistent with the people people being patsies. It's like claiming that Oswald was in the vicinity there when the thing went down. Well, of course he was, he had to be because he was the patsy, so they could frame him. He couldn't be off in Timbuktu at the time, because then he'd have an alibi!

    You have to be able to claim the guys went to a flight school, and thus knew how to fly the plane, because otherwise the whole story is a non-starter.

    There is no proof of the story that withstands the laugh test. Anybody who has seriously looked into this knows that.

    Arguing with a shit eater is a waste of time, because when you ask them for the evidence for whatever bullshit they have gobbled up, they never concede that THEY SIMPLY HAVE NONE. • Replies: @Boris

    What is the strongest evidence available, in your opinion that the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated from Afghanistan by a bearded religious fanatic named Osama bin Laden?
    9/11 was a complicated plot so asking for the "strongest evidnce" doesn't even make sense.

    We have video and records of guys in an organization that wanted to commit terrorism in America arriving in America, researching how to fly commercial airplanes, showing up at the airport on 9/11 and boarding the flights. We have recordings of the hijackers picked up by ATC. We have recordings of flight attendants calling and describing stabbings on board, and lots more calls from passengers in flight describing what is happening. We have video of the Twin Towers being hit by airplanes. Then the guy in charge of everything puts out a video about how great a job they did.

    Yes, it would be possible to fake all of that (well, not the planes hitting the buildings). And yet no one has ever put forth any convincing evidence that it was. Hm.

    You say the evidence is the video of Bin Laden? Well, there's expert opinion that the videos are fake.
    Far more experts think it's real. I guess they are in on it?
    Well, of course he was, he had to be because he was the patsy, so they could frame him.
    Well now you want to argue your stupid conspiracy theory. See, any evidence that is presented can be made into fit into some alternate theory. But those alternate theories never seem to have any evidence backing them up.

    I'm looking forward* to your discussion of the phone calls from the plane and how they were made by CIA actors and the family members of the dead are really lizard replicants and holograms and nukes and on and on and on.


    *I am not actually looking forward to this. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  234. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 9:05 pm GMT • 200 Words @CanSpeccy
    I was saying your #174 comment was at best a case of the pot calling the kettle black
    But you said it in five unintelligible paragraphs instead, perhaps to conceal that there was no logical basis to your claim.

    As for your contempt for Unz Review contributor, PCR, it makes one wonder why you hang around here so much. Are you, perhaps, one of Cass Sunstein's boys ?

    Are you, perhaps, one of Cass Sunstein's boys?

    As best I understand, this Wizard of Oz creep is some kind of elderly lawyer down in Australia. A real sleazebag shyster type lawyer, perhaps the Aussie equivalent of Alan Dershowitz.

    He has a certain bag of tricks that he uses to blow smoke. This guy is an absolutely disgusting individual and it's really nauseating to interact with him. Maybe it's just a waste of time because surely most everybody sees through this guy's charlatanry by now.

    My approach has just been to try to corner him into admitting that he has no evidence for the official 9/11 story. By now, he has tried every sophomoric trick, like claiming that the onus on me to prove something to him, or then claiming that the proof of the government story is the government story. Now, he is claiming that he won't respond because of my deplorable personality.

    It's like he has a bag of tricks that he goes through. "Oh, that one didn't work, so now I'll try this one "

    The guy really is just disgusting. A real piece of shit. But regarding your Cass Sunstein allusion, I have no idea. It is hard to see why somebody would do what Wizard does here just on his own dime, with this level of persistence, if there was nothing in it for him. But I dunno. It's hard to fathom the psychology of some people.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy Oh come'n. The Wiz isn't as bad as Dershowitz.

    Thing is though, there's probably not much difference between a lawyer and a professional troll.

    Both are annoying and mostly a waste of time. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  235. CanSpeccy says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 9:23 pm GMT • 200 Words @Jonathan Revusky
    Fortunately I have missed most of your agitated comments directed at me,
    Uh huh, yeah right, except there is a problem with what you are saying. The problem is this: YOU ARE LYING YOUR ASS OFF.

    You did not fail to respond to my last posts because you "missed" my "agitated comments". You failed to respond because you were cornered and had no response. Everybody who was reading the exchange (possibly nobody or many people, I dunno...) knows this.

    Specifically, you tried the sophomoric trick of trying to claim that the proof of the government's story was that it was the government's story.

    I said no dice, you can't do that and you were out of bullets and walked away. That was here:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-alexander-cockburn-and-the-british-spies/#comment-1550686

    The reason that this comment went with no reply from you was because you were cornered and could not reply.

    Or, if you can, fine. So it's just back to where were were at. Please outline the best available evidence for the US govt story (Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda etc.) or admit that there is no real evidence.

    so I shall take my leave of whoever or what "Jonathan Revusky" may be and confine any discussion of 9/11 matters to those who have demonstrated at least a modicum of rational intelligence and civility.
    TRANSLATION: "I will only debate with people who let me get away with murder in the debate. this "Jonathan Revusky" doesn't let me get away with this shit, like that the government's story is proof of the government's story so obviously I can't debate with him. Oh, I'll pretend that I don't debate with him because of his horrible personality, though, not because I am incapable of it..."

    The issue is obviously not my deplorable personality. The issue is that I posed the completely legitimate question of what is the best evidence available of the US govt story on 9/11. You obviously cannot reply because there is no evidence for the story and you are trying to blow smoke to avoid conceding that point.

    Actually, Jonathan, WizOz is absolutely correct in identifying you - a critic of the official 9/11 story - as a crackpot conspiracy theorist. This is simply a matter of definition, as Ron Unz explains. CIA-inspired media usage has defined the questioning of official history as crackpot conspiracy theorizing.

    A crackpot conspiracy theory, so defined, may, of course, be entirely correct and it may be obviously correct to a normally intelligent person presented with the relevant evidence. But it is still consistent with current media usage to call it a crackpot conspiracy theory.

    Likewise, in accordance with current media usage, any official theory is correct because it is official, although at the same time it may be total bollocks.

    In fact, any theory that is quite consistently labelled a crackpot conspiracy theory by the media is almost certainly at least in part true, since otherwise failing institutions such as the New York Times and the PuffHo would not waste their diminishing capital of credibility by mocking it.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz Well you don't rave like the frothing Revusky so I shall mention here an interesting link to follow and that is Wikipedia on thermite. I don't remember anything about thermite reactions at least as such from 6th form Chemistry and now realise that aluminium is frequently at the core of thermite reactions, thereby lending support to the recently expounded theories of heating, and explosions, which would correct the official versions. (There was about 30 tons of aluminium in each plane from memory). I couldn't see anything about a thermite connection to demolitions. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  236. Conspiracy Theories Are True | Bill Totten's Weblog says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 9:53 pm GMT

    [ ] {2} http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-how-the-cia-invented-conspiracy-theories/ [ ]

  237. ogunsiron says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 9:54 pm GMT @5371 This is a good piece which deserved an acceptable level of mental hygiene in the comment section. Unfortunately, two of the first nine comments are from morons spamming their "no lunar landing" drivel. In all probability the "no nuclear weapons" clowns will also be here imminently. Oh well, a delicious sweet dish will attract a fly as much as a gourmet.

    In all probability the "no nuclear weapons" clowns will also be here imminently
    --
    The flat earth guys might beat them to it.

    Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  238. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 11:12 pm GMT • 300 Words @Jonathan Revusky
    1. Outline what you think the strongest evidence for the government story is.
    All of it. What kind of nonsense question is this?
    Hey, shit eater, can't you read? I didn't say "all of it". I said outline the strongest evidence available. I worded it that way because I anticipate the shit eater response that... oh, there is just so much evidence that you can't possibly outline it all! So I just said, "outline the strongest evidence". NOT all of it .

    What is the strongest evidence available, in your opinion that the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated from Afghanistan by a bearded religious fanatic named Osama bin Laden?

    Anyway, asking for the evidence is not a "nonsense question". Well, it is if you're a shit eater, because if you're a shit eater, you eat up whatever bullshit they throw in your general direction, so they said it on the TV so it's true, and there is no need for any actual evidence.

    I understand the shit eater mentality.


    So if someone were to say "Osama Bin Laden admitted to planinng the attack on video,"
    Okay, is that your answer? Is that the strongest evidence available?
    If someone said "We know that Atta and the other hijackers were taking flight training and that they had meetings in Afghanistan planning the attacks,"
    Okay, that they were at the flight school is proof that they flew buildings in to skyscrapers. That's what you're saying? Okay, is that the strongest evidence available or is it the aforementioned videos?

    As for the meetings in Afghanistan, uhh, that is claimed. What is the proof of that? They took minutes of the meeting and we have the records? There's a recording? Or is it just that they claimed that these meetings took place and it's just an unsubstantiated claim?


    3. Arguing with conspiracy theorists is a huge waste of time because they have no idea what they are talking about and are so ideologically blinded that they will never accept any evidence no matter how convincing and authoritative.
    Well, that's not what's happening in these exchanges. What keeps happening is that I keep asking what the evidence is and nobody provides any.

    You say the evidence is the video of Bin Laden? Well, there's expert opinion that the videos are fake. But, in any case, if a plane flies into a building tomorrow on the other side of the world, in China say, I could immediately put up a video claiming that I made this happen. Would that be hard proof?

    And pointing to some guys who were in a flight school, therefore they hijacked the planes... this is not strong proof. In general, the proof cannot be equally consistent with the people people being patsies. It's like claiming that Oswald was in the vicinity there when the thing went down. Well, of course he was, he had to be because he was the patsy, so they could frame him. He couldn't be off in Timbuktu at the time, because then he'd have an alibi!

    You have to be able to claim the guys went to a flight school, and thus knew how to fly the plane, because otherwise the whole story is a non-starter.

    There is no proof of the story that withstands the laugh test. Anybody who has seriously looked into this knows that.

    Arguing with a shit eater is a waste of time, because when you ask them for the evidence for whatever bullshit they have gobbled up, they never concede that THEY SIMPLY HAVE NONE.

    What is the strongest evidence available, in your opinion that the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated from Afghanistan by a bearded religious fanatic named Osama bin Laden?

    9/11 was a complicated plot so asking for the "strongest evidnce" doesn't even make sense.

    We have video and records of guys in an organization that wanted to commit terrorism in America arriving in America, researching how to fly commercial airplanes, showing up at the airport on 9/11 and boarding the flights. We have recordings of the hijackers picked up by ATC. We have recordings of flight attendants calling and describing stabbings on board, and lots more calls from passengers in flight describing what is happening. We have video of the Twin Towers being hit by airplanes. Then the guy in charge of everything puts out a video about how great a job they did.

    Yes, it would be possible to fake all of that (well, not the planes hitting the buildings). And yet no one has ever put forth any convincing evidence that it was. Hm.

    You say the evidence is the video of Bin Laden? Well, there's expert opinion that the videos are fake.

    Far more experts think it's real. I guess they are in on it?

    Well, of course he was, he had to be because he was the patsy, so they could frame him.

    Well now you want to argue your stupid conspiracy theory. See, any evidence that is presented can be made into fit into some alternate theory. But those alternate theories never seem to have any evidence backing them up.

    I'm looking forward* to your discussion of the phone calls from the plane and how they were made by CIA actors and the family members of the dead are really lizard replicants and holograms and nukes and on and on and on.

    [MORE]
    *I am not actually looking forward to this.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    9/11 was a complicated plot so asking for the "strongest evidnce" doesn't even make sense.
    TRANSLATION OF SHIT-EATER SPEAK: "I have no real evidence so I'm going to pretend that the other person is being unreasonable when he asks for some.
    We have video and records of guys in an organization that wanted to commit terrorism in America...
    Hey, shit eater, you ever heard of the "beg the question fallacy"? What that means is that you can't assume the thing that you are trying to prove in your proof.

    Anyway, what "videos" and "records" are you referring to specifically? It seems to me that you're just repeating the story as proof of the story, which is, of course, what shit eaters do when you ask them for proof of whatever bullshit.


    Yes, it would be possible to fake all of that (well, not the planes hitting the buildings). And yet no one has ever put forth any convincing evidence that it was. Hm.
    Oh, you no one has ever put forth any convincing evidence that any of this is fake. Look, at this point, there is a vast literature on this. And, yes, they have put forward VERY convincing evidence that basically ALL OF IT is fake! In particular, the alleged phone calls from the planes that detail the official narrative, these are very problematic, not technically possible even.

    In any case, a video of a plane hitting a building is not proof that some bearded guy in Afghanistan caused it to happen. By that reasoning, the Zapruder film of Kennedy being shot is proof that Oswald did it. It is not.

    Also, the video of a plane hitting a building is not proof that this is the cause of the building's subsequent implosion. Particularly problematic is the third building WTC 7, which was not hit by a plane, yet imploded in a perfectly symmetrical straight-down fashion that can only be achieved via controlled demolition.

    You say the evidence is the video of Bin Laden? Well, there's expert opinion that the videos are fake.
    Far more experts think it's real. I guess they are in on it?
    Which experts think that the Bin Laden "confession videos" are real? Can you name any of these "experts"?

    In any case, anybody can say anything on a video. It's not very strong proof. I can put up a video on youtube saying I did it.


    Well now you want to argue your stupid conspiracy theory. See, any evidence that is presented can be made into fit into some alternate theory. But those alternate theories never seem to have any evidence backing them up.
    The main alternative theory is that the buildings were prewired with explosives for a controlled demolition. As regards WTC7, there is no reasonable doubt of this really, because the building was not hit by a plane even. But, obviously, once you recognize that one building was pre-rigged for controlled demolition, it becomes fairly obvious that all three were.

    In any case, I did not actually propose any alternative story. I requested that you and whatever other shit eaters tell me what they think the strongest evidence for the official story is.
    There simply is not very much. It's stuff like somebody says they got a phone call from a plane in which the person told them that such-and-such had happened. Fine, I could say I got a phone call. There are people who will say anything for a few bucks.

    I could put up a video saying I did it.

    When you look at what you are presenting as evidence, it's very very weak. There's basically nothing there.

    Meanwhile, the physical evidence, that the collision of a single airliner with a building the size of WTC1 or WTC2 is simply not going to cause what then happened. A 90-ton aluminum tube crashing into 100,000 tons of structural steel, is simply not going to cause the latter to disintegrate.

    And why a third building that is not even hit by a plane should disintegrate as a result, this really only has one explanation, which is that the building in question was prerigged with explosives.

    And that is why there are over 2000 professional architects and engineers who have signed the Architechts and Engineers for 9/11 Truth petition calling for a new investigation. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  239. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 8, 2016 at 11:49 pm GMT

    1. Demand evidence.
    2. Call people "shit eaters" until they get sick of you and leave.
    3. Declare victory!

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  240. CanSpeccy says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 12:05 am GMT @Jonathan Revusky
    Are you, perhaps, one of Cass Sunstein's boys?
    As best I understand, this Wizard of Oz creep is some kind of elderly lawyer down in Australia. A real sleazebag shyster type lawyer, perhaps the Aussie equivalent of Alan Dershowitz.

    He has a certain bag of tricks that he uses to blow smoke. This guy is an absolutely disgusting individual and it's really nauseating to interact with him. Maybe it's just a waste of time because surely most everybody sees through this guy's charlatanry by now.

    My approach has just been to try to corner him into admitting that he has no evidence for the official 9/11 story. By now, he has tried every sophomoric trick, like claiming that the onus on me to prove something to him, or then claiming that the proof of the government story is the government story. Now, he is claiming that he won't respond because of my deplorable personality.

    It's like he has a bag of tricks that he goes through. "Oh, that one didn't work, so now I'll try this one..."

    The guy really is just disgusting. A real piece of shit. But regarding your Cass Sunstein allusion, I have no idea. It is hard to see why somebody would do what Wizard does here just on his own dime, with this level of persistence, if there was nothing in it for him. But I dunno. It's hard to fathom the psychology of some people.

    Oh come'n. The Wiz isn't as bad as Dershowitz.

    Thing is though, there's probably not much difference between a lawyer and a professional troll.

    Both are annoying and mostly a waste of time.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    Oh come'n. The Wiz isn't as bad as Dershowitz.
    Well, probably not, but that would mostly be because he lacks the talent.

    I mean one thing that is clear about this Wizard is that this guy is really really stupid. I mean, you ask him for proof of the government story and he tells you that the government story is proof of the government story.

    Of course, Alan Dershowitz would make the same argument basically, but it would be masked in a more clever way. The Wizard just openly tells you that the proof of the government story is that it's the government story. Sheesh, what a moron...

    Thing is though, there's probably not much difference between a lawyer and a professional troll.
    Well, he apparently really is a lawyer down in Australia. That is what he has said, and I believe it is true. , @NosytheDuke The Wiz is a fraud and a troll. All puffery and no pastry. Not worth your time. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  241. BobFromTheHills says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 12:31 am GMT • 300 Words

    We accept the principle of cross examination when the government charges someone with a crime and the case goes to court. What about if the case never makes it court? A crime occurs, but the life of the accused is snatched away before a trial can commence. In those situations, if the crime is serious enough, the government usually undertakes an investigation and issues a report which contains the same evidence that would have been used in court.

    We saw that with president Kennedys assassination, and we saw that with 911 attacks. In both cases, the accused were dead before a trial ever started. No accused, no trial. No trial, no cross examination. Just a report.

    And we're supposed to trust the report. Believe the report. The report knows all.

    But why?

    Just because there's no trial doesn't mean there can't be a cross examination of the states evidence. The only difference is that the evidence has been released in a report instead of a court trial. Why is this evidence not a fit target for cross examination, especially by people possessing relevant competencies? Why is that delegated to crazy, conspiracy thinking?

    Without cross examination, the government has not legitimately proven it's case. Without that challenge, we only have half the story. Criminal trials, the Constitution, and justice itself becomes a farce. If the accused were to conveniently die before the trial, that also conveniently negates the need to share the evidence with anyone. The government can then frame the case and generate the proper presentation, to fix the light in order to cast the shadows and manufacture the perceptions it wants.

    Conspiracy Theorists are simply people who have the temerity to point this out and follow through with a cross examination.

    If the government itself committed a crime (or a cabal within it), how would you know?

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    We accept the principle of cross examination when the government charges someone with a crime and the case goes to court.
    Yeah, this is a very important point you make actually. For example, as far as I can tell, none of the testimony provided that established the official government story on 9/11 was ever subjected to any sort of adversarial cross-examination. Somebody says they got a phone call from a plane and therefore it's true.

    Or for example, somebody in this thread says that there are all these "experts" who say that whatever Bin Laden video is authentic. But, as far as I can tell, these are just CIA connected "experts" saying: "Yep, the video is real." And they're not saying it under oath, under penalty of perjury or anything. And again, no cross-examination....

    So, some guy who looks vaguely like Bin Laden is in a video chortling with glee, saying he made this happen.

    Or somebody says that there was a meeting in Afghanistan in which the attacks were discussed. How do we know this? Oh, that's in the report... It always boils down to the notion that the government story is true because it's the government story.

    I'm not a lawyer but I think the technical term in jurisprudence for all this level of "evidence" is that it's just "hearsay". Statements that aren't under oath and not subjected to any cross-examination... just hearsay...

    And on the basis of this, we launched a war on the other side of the world and caused the deaths of so many people. Just some cock-and-bull story for which there is no evidence whatsoever. One doesn't know whether to laugh or cry.

    If the accused were to conveniently die before the trial, that also conveniently negates the need to share the evidence with anyone
    Well, yeah... actually, in these Deep State operations, the patsies are pretty much invariably killed. And then, of course, the government can claim whatever it wants basically. That's how it works... Of course... Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  242. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 12:49 am GMT • 100 Words @CanSpeccy Actually, Jonathan, WizOz is absolutely correct in identifying you - a critic of the official 9/11 story - as a crackpot conspiracy theorist. This is simply a matter of definition, as Ron Unz explains. CIA-inspired media usage has defined the questioning of official history as crackpot conspiracy theorizing.

    A crackpot conspiracy theory, so defined, may, of course, be entirely correct and it may be obviously correct to a normally intelligent person presented with the relevant evidence. But it is still consistent with current media usage to call it a crackpot conspiracy theory.

    Likewise, in accordance with current media usage, any official theory is correct because it is official, although at the same time it may be total bollocks.

    In fact, any theory that is quite consistently labelled a crackpot conspiracy theory by the media is almost certainly at least in part true, since otherwise failing institutions such as the New York Times and the PuffHo would not waste their diminishing capital of credibility by mocking it.

    Well you don't rave like the frothing Revusky so I shall mention here an interesting link to follow and that is Wikipedia on thermite. I don't remember anything about thermite reactions at least as such from 6th form Chemistry and now realise that aluminium is frequently at the core of thermite reactions, thereby lending support to the recently expounded theories of heating, and explosions, which would correct the official versions. (There was about 30 tons of aluminium in each plane from memory). I couldn't see anything about a thermite connection to demolitions.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    I don't remember anything about thermite reactions at least as such from 6th form Chemistry and now realise that aluminium is frequently at the core of thermite reactions, thereby lending support to the recently expounded theories of heating, and explosions, which would correct the official versions.
    Yes, either your ignorance is profound, or your intent to divert the discussion into a nonsensical channel is exposed.

    Bulk aluminum doesn't ignite in a building fire. According to one source, aluminum must be vaporized before it will burn and the boiling point of aluminum is 3,986 Farenheit, whereas the adiabatic flame temperature of Kerosene in air, at around 3597 Farenheit, is 400 degrees lower. Moreover, the jet fuel fires in the Twin Towers would likely have burned at considerably lower temperatures due to oxygen supply limitations.

    Aluminum burns readily in a thermitic compound comprising aluminum in a finely divided form intimately mixed with an oxidizer, usually iron oxide. In the process of combustion aluminum is oxidized, while the iron oxide is reduced to pure molten iron, which will be found in the reaction residue in the form of iron microspheres, just as were abundant in the ash collected in the vicinity of the Twin Towers.

    Among the best authorities on thermite is the National Institute of Standards, or NIST, the non-governmental body hired to "explain" the collapse of the Twin Towers and WTC 7. In the past, NIST worked closely with the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory on the development of explosive nanothermites .

    Oddly, it apparently never occurred to the NIST investigators of the collapse of three WTC buildings that explosives such as thermite, a material long used in controlled building demolitions , might have been involved in the perfect implosion of three WTC buildings. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  243. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 1:06 am GMT • 700 Words @Boris
    What is the strongest evidence available, in your opinion that the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated from Afghanistan by a bearded religious fanatic named Osama bin Laden?
    9/11 was a complicated plot so asking for the "strongest evidnce" doesn't even make sense.

    We have video and records of guys in an organization that wanted to commit terrorism in America arriving in America, researching how to fly commercial airplanes, showing up at the airport on 9/11 and boarding the flights. We have recordings of the hijackers picked up by ATC. We have recordings of flight attendants calling and describing stabbings on board, and lots more calls from passengers in flight describing what is happening. We have video of the Twin Towers being hit by airplanes. Then the guy in charge of everything puts out a video about how great a job they did.

    Yes, it would be possible to fake all of that (well, not the planes hitting the buildings). And yet no one has ever put forth any convincing evidence that it was. Hm.

    You say the evidence is the video of Bin Laden? Well, there's expert opinion that the videos are fake.
    Far more experts think it's real. I guess they are in on it?
    Well, of course he was, he had to be because he was the patsy, so they could frame him.
    Well now you want to argue your stupid conspiracy theory. See, any evidence that is presented can be made into fit into some alternate theory. But those alternate theories never seem to have any evidence backing them up.

    I'm looking forward* to your discussion of the phone calls from the plane and how they were made by CIA actors and the family members of the dead are really lizard replicants and holograms and nukes and on and on and on.


    *I am not actually looking forward to this.

    9/11 was a complicated plot so asking for the "strongest evidnce" doesn't even make sense.

    TRANSLATION OF SHIT-EATER SPEAK: "I have no real evidence so I'm going to pretend that the other person is being unreasonable when he asks for some.

    We have video and records of guys in an organization that wanted to commit terrorism in America

    Hey, shit eater, you ever heard of the "beg the question fallacy"? What that means is that you can't assume the thing that you are trying to prove in your proof.

    Anyway, what "videos" and "records" are you referring to specifically? It seems to me that you're just repeating the story as proof of the story, which is, of course, what shit eaters do when you ask them for proof of whatever bullshit.

    Yes, it would be possible to fake all of that (well, not the planes hitting the buildings). And yet no one has ever put forth any convincing evidence that it was. Hm.

    Oh, you no one has ever put forth any convincing evidence that any of this is fake. Look, at this point, there is a vast literature on this. And, yes, they have put forward VERY convincing evidence that basically ALL OF IT is fake! In particular, the alleged phone calls from the planes that detail the official narrative, these are very problematic, not technically possible even.

    In any case, a video of a plane hitting a building is not proof that some bearded guy in Afghanistan caused it to happen. By that reasoning, the Zapruder film of Kennedy being shot is proof that Oswald did it. It is not.

    Also, the video of a plane hitting a building is not proof that this is the cause of the building's subsequent implosion. Particularly problematic is the third building WTC 7, which was not hit by a plane, yet imploded in a perfectly symmetrical straight-down fashion that can only be achieved via controlled demolition.

    You say the evidence is the video of Bin Laden? Well, there's expert opinion that the videos are fake.

    Far more experts think it's real. I guess they are in on it?

    Which experts think that the Bin Laden "confession videos" are real? Can you name any of these "experts"?

    In any case, anybody can say anything on a video. It's not very strong proof. I can put up a video on youtube saying I did it.

    Well now you want to argue your stupid conspiracy theory. See, any evidence that is presented can be made into fit into some alternate theory. But those alternate theories never seem to have any evidence backing them up.

    The main alternative theory is that the buildings were prewired with explosives for a controlled demolition. As regards WTC7, there is no reasonable doubt of this really, because the building was not hit by a plane even. But, obviously, once you recognize that one building was pre-rigged for controlled demolition, it becomes fairly obvious that all three were.

    In any case, I did not actually propose any alternative story. I requested that you and whatever other shit eaters tell me what they think the strongest evidence for the official story is.
    There simply is not very much. It's stuff like somebody says they got a phone call from a plane in which the person told them that such-and-such had happened. Fine, I could say I got a phone call. There are people who will say anything for a few bucks.

    I could put up a video saying I did it.

    When you look at what you are presenting as evidence, it's very very weak. There's basically nothing there.

    Meanwhile, the physical evidence, that the collision of a single airliner with a building the size of WTC1 or WTC2 is simply not going to cause what then happened. A 90-ton aluminum tube crashing into 100,000 tons of structural steel, is simply not going to cause the latter to disintegrate.

    And why a third building that is not even hit by a plane should disintegrate as a result, this really only has one explanation, which is that the building in question was prerigged with explosives.

    And that is why there are over 2000 professional architects and engineers who have signed the Architechts and Engineers for 9/11 Truth petition calling for a new investigation.

    • Replies: @Boris
    Hey, shit eater, you ever heard of the "beg the question fallacy"? What that means is that you can't assume the thing that you are trying to prove in your proof.
    I am aware of that particular fallacy, fuckface.
    Anyway, what "videos" and "records" are you referring to specifically?
    Video surveillance of Atta at the airport. His purchase of the tickets. Money trails. And etc. etc. etc.

    Look, at this point, there is a vast literature on this.
    Yes, there is a vast circle jerk of conspiracy theorists.

    In particular, the alleged phone calls from the planes that detail the official narrative, these are very problematic, not technically possible even.
    Not technically possible? So the whole Airfone ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airfone ) business was faked for years in anticipation of the deception? Our government overlords have a great deal of foresight. And what evidence is there that the calls were faked? The Fake Calls theory is one of the dumbest of those associated with truthers, so it doesn't surprise me to find that you are an adherent.

    The main alternative theory is that the buildings were prewired with explosives for a controlled demolition. As regards WTC7, there is no reasonable doubt of this really, because the building was not hit by a plane even.
    Aside from various non-experts claiming that the collapse "looked like a controlled demolition" there is no evidence for this theory. No explosives found. No wires found. Nothing. But you are already at the "no reasonable doubt" stage? What a deep thinker you are!
    A 90-ton aluminum tube crashing into 100,000 tons of structural steel, is simply not going to cause the latter to disintegrate.
    Evidence for this statement? Your feelings? Not very scientific, fuckface. , @Incitatus "The main alternative theory is that the buildings were prewired with explosives for a controlled demolition. As regards WTC7, there is no reasonable doubt of this really, because the building was not hit by a plane even. But, obviously, once you recognize that one building was pre-rigged for controlled demolition, it becomes fairly obvious that all three were."

    None dispute 9/11 was a conspiracy, but who was in it? Nineteen hijackers trained in Afghanistan and funded by Gulf money (the govt story)? The Bush administration? Some other govt? Why?

    You've obviously done a great deal of research and conclude (as you say) all WTC towers were intentionally demolished. Please share your theory. If it was a scripted event:

    • Why did WT 1 (the first tower hit) fall after WT 2? Did conspirators mix up demo timing?
    • Why did they bother to take down WT 7? Wouldn't the lack of aerial impact reveal demo and conspiracy?
    • How did conspirators mine 240 exterior columns on each office floor of WT 1 & 2 (±50,000 locations) without detection? Central core columns? Freestanding columns in public view at grade? How was it concealed from building tenants, management, maintenance staff, visitors, CoNY building inspectors, supply services, etc? And the same in WTC 7?
    • Architects and engineers from Minoru Yamasaki & Associates, Emery Roth & Sons, Worthington Skilling Helle & Jackson, Joseph R. Loring & Assoc, Jaros Blum & Bolles, and the numerous other firms responsible for the WTC don't appear to be part of ae911truth. Are they part of the conspiracy? Are WTC building contractors and subcontractors part of the conspiracy? Building tenants?
    • How could the same administration that ignored 9/11 warnings, bungled Katrina and screwed-up Iraq 2003 pull off such a complex, faultless conspiracy? Why have no insiders spilled the tale?

    I'm on the fence. I'd really like to know. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  244. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 2:05 am GMT • 300 Words @Jonathan Revusky
    9/11 was a complicated plot so asking for the "strongest evidnce" doesn't even make sense.
    TRANSLATION OF SHIT-EATER SPEAK: "I have no real evidence so I'm going to pretend that the other person is being unreasonable when he asks for some.
    We have video and records of guys in an organization that wanted to commit terrorism in America...
    Hey, shit eater, you ever heard of the "beg the question fallacy"? What that means is that you can't assume the thing that you are trying to prove in your proof.

    Anyway, what "videos" and "records" are you referring to specifically? It seems to me that you're just repeating the story as proof of the story, which is, of course, what shit eaters do when you ask them for proof of whatever bullshit.


    Yes, it would be possible to fake all of that (well, not the planes hitting the buildings). And yet no one has ever put forth any convincing evidence that it was. Hm.
    Oh, you no one has ever put forth any convincing evidence that any of this is fake. Look, at this point, there is a vast literature on this. And, yes, they have put forward VERY convincing evidence that basically ALL OF IT is fake! In particular, the alleged phone calls from the planes that detail the official narrative, these are very problematic, not technically possible even.

    In any case, a video of a plane hitting a building is not proof that some bearded guy in Afghanistan caused it to happen. By that reasoning, the Zapruder film of Kennedy being shot is proof that Oswald did it. It is not.

    Also, the video of a plane hitting a building is not proof that this is the cause of the building's subsequent implosion. Particularly problematic is the third building WTC 7, which was not hit by a plane, yet imploded in a perfectly symmetrical straight-down fashion that can only be achieved via controlled demolition.

    You say the evidence is the video of Bin Laden? Well, there's expert opinion that the videos are fake.
    Far more experts think it's real. I guess they are in on it?
    Which experts think that the Bin Laden "confession videos" are real? Can you name any of these "experts"?

    In any case, anybody can say anything on a video. It's not very strong proof. I can put up a video on youtube saying I did it.


    Well now you want to argue your stupid conspiracy theory. See, any evidence that is presented can be made into fit into some alternate theory. But those alternate theories never seem to have any evidence backing them up.
    The main alternative theory is that the buildings were prewired with explosives for a controlled demolition. As regards WTC7, there is no reasonable doubt of this really, because the building was not hit by a plane even. But, obviously, once you recognize that one building was pre-rigged for controlled demolition, it becomes fairly obvious that all three were.

    In any case, I did not actually propose any alternative story. I requested that you and whatever other shit eaters tell me what they think the strongest evidence for the official story is.
    There simply is not very much. It's stuff like somebody says they got a phone call from a plane in which the person told them that such-and-such had happened. Fine, I could say I got a phone call. There are people who will say anything for a few bucks.

    I could put up a video saying I did it.

    When you look at what you are presenting as evidence, it's very very weak. There's basically nothing there.

    Meanwhile, the physical evidence, that the collision of a single airliner with a building the size of WTC1 or WTC2 is simply not going to cause what then happened. A 90-ton aluminum tube crashing into 100,000 tons of structural steel, is simply not going to cause the latter to disintegrate.

    And why a third building that is not even hit by a plane should disintegrate as a result, this really only has one explanation, which is that the building in question was prerigged with explosives.

    And that is why there are over 2000 professional architects and engineers who have signed the Architechts and Engineers for 9/11 Truth petition calling for a new investigation.

    Hey, shit eater, you ever heard of the "beg the question fallacy"? What that means is that you can't assume the thing that you are trying to prove in your proof.

    I am aware of that particular fallacy, fuckface.

    Anyway, what "videos" and "records" are you referring to specifically?

    Video surveillance of Atta at the airport. His purchase of the tickets. Money trails. And etc. etc. etc.

    Look, at this point, there is a vast literature on this.

    Yes, there is a vast circle jerk of conspiracy theorists.

    In particular, the alleged phone calls from the planes that detail the official narrative, these are very problematic, not technically possible even.

    Not technically possible? So the whole Airfone ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airfone ) business was faked for years in anticipation of the deception? Our government overlords have a great deal of foresight. And what evidence is there that the calls were faked? The Fake Calls theory is one of the dumbest of those associated with truthers, so it doesn't surprise me to find that you are an adherent.

    The main alternative theory is that the buildings were prewired with explosives for a controlled demolition. As regards WTC7, there is no reasonable doubt of this really, because the building was not hit by a plane even.

    Aside from various non-experts claiming that the collapse "looked like a controlled demolition" there is no evidence for this theory. No explosives found. No wires found. Nothing. But you are already at the "no reasonable doubt" stage? What a deep thinker you are!

    A 90-ton aluminum tube crashing into 100,000 tons of structural steel, is simply not going to cause the latter to disintegrate.

    Evidence for this statement? Your feelings? Not very scientific, fuckface.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    Hey, shit eater, you ever heard of the "beg the question fallacy"? What that means is that you can't assume the thing that you are trying to prove in your proof.
    I am aware of that particular fallacy, fuckface.
    So you say, but there is actually no sign at all that you are aware of that fallacy.

    In general, I've debated with shit eaters enough to know that, as a general rule, they do not understand the "beg the question" fallacy. Because they always, always, end up telling you that the government story is proof of the government story. They always do. It never fails.


    Video surveillance of Atta at the airport. His purchase of the tickets. Money trails. And etc. etc. etc.
    Well, you see, you don't even understand the basic parameters of the debate. You have to come up with "proof" that is not equally consistent with the person being a patsy. You know, it's like if you say that Lee Harvey Oswald was in the schoolbook depository building at the time of the assassination. Well, that's just as consistent with him being a patsy as being the killer! He has to be in approximately the right place at the right time so that you can frame him for the crime! And the same applies here.

    But you don't understand that apparently!

    So, that there is a record of Atta, or somebody representing that he's Atta, purchasing the tickets, this is just as consistent with Atta being a patsy as actually being a perpetrator. You're presenting this as proof but it is not proof of anything. Or it's stuff like there's a video of some guy who looks like Bin Laden saying he made this happen. I could put up a video making the same claim. These are just airy fairy things that are not real proof of anything. And you apparently think that it's normal that you can just launch some war and kill so many thousands of innocents based on some story with this level of proof. It's just ridiculous.

    Look, at this point, there is a vast literature on this.
    Yes, there is a vast circle jerk of conspiracy theorists.
    Hmm, well, have you read any of of the authors in question? David Ray Griffin, for example? Or Webster Tarpley? Have you looked at any of the material on the Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth website.

    I kind of doubt it. Officialdom just tells you what to think of this stuff and you've almost certainly never checked for yourself.

    Well, I know this. You're not the first shit eater I've debated with.

    The Fake Calls theory is one of the dumbest of those associated with truthers, so it doesn't surprise me to find that you are an adherent.
    I simply asked you what the proof of the story was. Okay, so somebody says they got a phone call. And that's proof. For you. Or they say that there were meetings in Afghanistan in which the attacks were discussed. What is the proof of that? It's just the story they tell and the story is proof of the story. You actually clearly do not understand the "beg the question" fallacy.

    Now, even if the phone calls were technically possible, which I do doubt, it hardly is proof. And certainly it is not proof of the central thesis of the government, that all of this was orchestrated by people in faroff Afghanistan. That was the basis for the subsequent war that was launched.

    Aside from various non-experts claiming that the collapse "looked like a controlled demolition" there is no evidence for this theory. No explosives found.
    Well, now it's becoming clear that you just don't know anything about this topic. Go to http://ae911truth.org/ and you'll see that the people saying this have very high levels of expertise.

    As for there being no evidence for the "theory" that WTC7 was a controlled demolition, the case is in fact overwhelming. This is simply because there is no building collapse that looks exactly like a controlled demolition that is not, in fact, a controlled demolition. Something that symmetrical obviously has to be engineered.

    As for no proof of explosives being found, this is because they specifically did not look for any.

    A 90-ton aluminum tube crashing into 100,000 tons of structural steel, is simply not going to cause the latter to disintegrate.
    Evidence for this statement? Your feelings? Not very scientific, fuckface.
    Well, go to http://ae911truth.org/ and get educated. Anybody with, let's say, a decent high school education, who spends as much as a half day on the internet contrasting different sources, will see that the ae911truth people are simply telling the truth. And that means that the government story of what happened is simply impossible.

    This is most absolutely clear with the WTC7, since that building was not even hit by a plane. They are trying to claim that a building can implode in a perfectly symmetrical way from uncontrolled fires. The building has 40-odd steel support columns that would all have to give way within the same split second. That has to be engineered. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  245. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 2:22 am GMT • 300 Words @BobFromTheHills We accept the principle of cross examination when the government charges someone with a crime and the case goes to court. What about if the case never makes it court? A crime occurs, but the life of the accused is snatched away before a trial can commence. In those situations, if the crime is serious enough, the government usually undertakes an investigation and issues a report which contains the same evidence that would have been used in court.

    We saw that with president Kennedys assassination, and we saw that with 911 attacks. In both cases, the accused were dead before a trial ever started. No accused, no trial. No trial, no cross examination. Just a report.

    And we're supposed to trust the report. Believe the report. The report knows all.

    But why?

    Just because there's no trial doesn't mean there can't be a cross examination of the states evidence. The only difference is that the evidence has been released in a report instead of a court trial. Why is this evidence not a fit target for cross examination, especially by people possessing relevant competencies? Why is that delegated to crazy, conspiracy thinking?

    Without cross examination, the government has not legitimately proven it's case. Without that challenge, we only have half the story. Criminal trials, the Constitution, and justice itself becomes a farce. If the accused were to conveniently die before the trial, that also conveniently negates the need to share the evidence with anyone. The government can then frame the case and generate the proper presentation, to fix the light in order to cast the shadows and manufacture the perceptions it wants.

    Conspiracy Theorists are simply people who have the temerity to point this out and follow through with a cross examination.

    If the government itself committed a crime (or a cabal within it), how would you know?

    We accept the principle of cross examination when the government charges someone with a crime and the case goes to court.

    Yeah, this is a very important point you make actually. For example, as far as I can tell, none of the testimony provided that established the official government story on 9/11 was ever subjected to any sort of adversarial cross-examination. Somebody says they got a phone call from a plane and therefore it's true.

    Or for example, somebody in this thread says that there are all these "experts" who say that whatever Bin Laden video is authentic. But, as far as I can tell, these are just CIA connected "experts" saying: "Yep, the video is real." And they're not saying it under oath, under penalty of perjury or anything. And again, no cross-examination .

    So, some guy who looks vaguely like Bin Laden is in a video chortling with glee, saying he made this happen.

    Or somebody says that there was a meeting in Afghanistan in which the attacks were discussed. How do we know this? Oh, that's in the report It always boils down to the notion that the government story is true because it's the government story.

    I'm not a lawyer but I think the technical term in jurisprudence for all this level of "evidence" is that it's just "hearsay". Statements that aren't under oath and not subjected to any cross-examination just hearsay

    And on the basis of this, we launched a war on the other side of the world and caused the deaths of so many people. Just some cock-and-bull story for which there is no evidence whatsoever. One doesn't know whether to laugh or cry.

    If the accused were to conveniently die before the trial, that also conveniently negates the need to share the evidence with anyone

    Well, yeah actually, in these Deep State operations, the patsies are pretty much invariably killed. And then, of course, the government can claim whatever it wants basically. That's how it works Of course

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  246. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 2:36 am GMT • 100 Words @CanSpeccy Oh come'n. The Wiz isn't as bad as Dershowitz.

    Thing is though, there's probably not much difference between a lawyer and a professional troll.

    Both are annoying and mostly a waste of time.

    Oh come'n. The Wiz isn't as bad as Dershowitz.

    Well, probably not, but that would mostly be because he lacks the talent.

    I mean one thing that is clear about this Wizard is that this guy is really really stupid. I mean, you ask him for proof of the government story and he tells you that the government story is proof of the government story.

    Of course, Alan Dershowitz would make the same argument basically, but it would be masked in a more clever way. The Wizard just openly tells you that the proof of the government story is that it's the government story. Sheesh, what a moron

    Thing is though, there's probably not much difference between a lawyer and a professional troll.

    Well, he apparently really is a lawyer down in Australia. That is what he has said, and I believe it is true.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    I mean one thing that is clear about this Wizard is that this guy is really really stupid. I mean, you ask him for proof of the government story and he tells you that the government story is proof of the government story.
    But that's the thing. That's how truth is defined in this politically correct age. So it's by definition, the government story is proof of the government story.

    George Orwell unfortunately mis-dated his book 1984 , he was about 20 years too soon. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  247. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 4:01 am GMT • 900 Words @Boris
    Hey, shit eater, you ever heard of the "beg the question fallacy"? What that means is that you can't assume the thing that you are trying to prove in your proof.
    I am aware of that particular fallacy, fuckface.
    Anyway, what "videos" and "records" are you referring to specifically?
    Video surveillance of Atta at the airport. His purchase of the tickets. Money trails. And etc. etc. etc.

    Look, at this point, there is a vast literature on this.
    Yes, there is a vast circle jerk of conspiracy theorists.

    In particular, the alleged phone calls from the planes that detail the official narrative, these are very problematic, not technically possible even.
    Not technically possible? So the whole Airfone ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airfone ) business was faked for years in anticipation of the deception? Our government overlords have a great deal of foresight. And what evidence is there that the calls were faked? The Fake Calls theory is one of the dumbest of those associated with truthers, so it doesn't surprise me to find that you are an adherent.

    The main alternative theory is that the buildings were prewired with explosives for a controlled demolition. As regards WTC7, there is no reasonable doubt of this really, because the building was not hit by a plane even.
    Aside from various non-experts claiming that the collapse "looked like a controlled demolition" there is no evidence for this theory. No explosives found. No wires found. Nothing. But you are already at the "no reasonable doubt" stage? What a deep thinker you are!
    A 90-ton aluminum tube crashing into 100,000 tons of structural steel, is simply not going to cause the latter to disintegrate.
    Evidence for this statement? Your feelings? Not very scientific, fuckface.

    Hey, shit eater, you ever heard of the "beg the question fallacy"? What that means is that you can't assume the thing that you are trying to prove in your proof.

    I am aware of that particular fallacy, fuckface.

    So you say, but there is actually no sign at all that you are aware of that fallacy.

    In general, I've debated with shit eaters enough to know that, as a general rule, they do not understand the "beg the question" fallacy. Because they always, always, end up telling you that the government story is proof of the government story. They always do. It never fails.

    Video surveillance of Atta at the airport. His purchase of the tickets. Money trails. And etc. etc. etc.

    Well, you see, you don't even understand the basic parameters of the debate. You have to come up with "proof" that is not equally consistent with the person being a patsy. You know, it's like if you say that Lee Harvey Oswald was in the schoolbook depository building at the time of the assassination. Well, that's just as consistent with him being a patsy as being the killer! He has to be in approximately the right place at the right time so that you can frame him for the crime! And the same applies here.

    But you don't understand that apparently!

    So, that there is a record of Atta, or somebody representing that he's Atta, purchasing the tickets, this is just as consistent with Atta being a patsy as actually being a perpetrator. You're presenting this as proof but it is not proof of anything. Or it's stuff like there's a video of some guy who looks like Bin Laden saying he made this happen. I could put up a video making the same claim. These are just airy fairy things that are not real proof of anything. And you apparently think that it's normal that you can just launch some war and kill so many thousands of innocents based on some story with this level of proof. It's just ridiculous.

    Look, at this point, there is a vast literature on this.

    Yes, there is a vast circle jerk of conspiracy theorists.

    Hmm, well, have you read any of of the authors in question? David Ray Griffin, for example? Or Webster Tarpley? Have you looked at any of the material on the Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth website.

    I kind of doubt it. Officialdom just tells you what to think of this stuff and you've almost certainly never checked for yourself.

    Well, I know this. You're not the first shit eater I've debated with.

    The Fake Calls theory is one of the dumbest of those associated with truthers, so it doesn't surprise me to find that you are an adherent.

    I simply asked you what the proof of the story was. Okay, so somebody says they got a phone call. And that's proof. For you. Or they say that there were meetings in Afghanistan in which the attacks were discussed. What is the proof of that? It's just the story they tell and the story is proof of the story. You actually clearly do not understand the "beg the question" fallacy.

    Now, even if the phone calls were technically possible, which I do doubt, it hardly is proof. And certainly it is not proof of the central thesis of the government, that all of this was orchestrated by people in faroff Afghanistan. That was the basis for the subsequent war that was launched.

    Aside from various non-experts claiming that the collapse "looked like a controlled demolition" there is no evidence for this theory. No explosives found.

    Well, now it's becoming clear that you just don't know anything about this topic. Go to http://ae911truth.org/ and you'll see that the people saying this have very high levels of expertise.

    As for there being no evidence for the "theory" that WTC7 was a controlled demolition, the case is in fact overwhelming. This is simply because there is no building collapse that looks exactly like a controlled demolition that is not, in fact, a controlled demolition. Something that symmetrical obviously has to be engineered.

    As for no proof of explosives being found, this is because they specifically did not look for any.

    A 90-ton aluminum tube crashing into 100,000 tons of structural steel, is simply not going to cause the latter to disintegrate.

    Evidence for this statement? Your feelings? Not very scientific, fuckface.

    Well, go to http://ae911truth.org/ and get educated. Anybody with, let's say, a decent high school education, who spends as much as a half day on the internet contrasting different sources, will see that the ae911truth people are simply telling the truth. And that means that the government story of what happened is simply impossible.

    This is most absolutely clear with the WTC7, since that building was not even hit by a plane. They are trying to claim that a building can implode in a perfectly symmetrical way from uncontrolled fires. The building has 40-odd steel support columns that would all have to give way within the same split second. That has to be engineered.

    • Replies: @Boris
    You have to come up with "proof" that is not equally consistent with the person being a patsy.
    This is not how evidence works. YOU have to come up with proof that the hijackers were patsies. I mean, your whole line is breathtakingly stupid. Now you prove that Muhammad Atta was not a shape-shifting alien. Well, he MUST be a shape-shifting alien because you have NO evidence that he isn't one!
    So, that there is a record of Atta, or somebody representing that he's Atta, purchasing the tickets
    And now you are basically admitting my shape-shifting alien theory is true!
    it's normal that you can just launch some war and kill so many thousands of innocents based on some story with this level of proof.
    The war was incredibly stupid. But people do stupid things based on real-life events ALL THE TIME. 9/11 doesn't have to be fake for the war to be a horrendous idea.
    I simply asked you what the proof of the story was. Okay, so somebody says they got a phone call. And that's proof. For you.
    Here there is lots of evidence. Yes, we have multiple people who say they received phone calls from loved ones. We have multiple recordings of these phone calls. We have the phone records of these phone calls. And we have zero evidence that any of those things are fraudulent or incorrect.
    Now, even if the phone calls were technically possible, which I do doubt, it hardly is proof.
    Your "doubt" just shows your ignorance. Air phones actually existed. I know my only proof is the experience of tens of thousands of people who made calls from airplanes and the decade long existence of two competing companies who manufactured, installed and maintained those devices. But sure, maybe the shape-shifters did all that.
    Anybody with, let's say, a decent high school education, who spends as much as a half day on the internet contrasting different sources, will see that the ae911truth people are simply telling the truth.
    Oh, yeah, why spend years getting a degree in structural engineering when you can spend an afternoon and have it all figured out? Look, you still think the phone calls were fake and impossible, and you expect me to believe that you understand the nuances of a complex, dynamic process like a building collapse? The fact is that you really, really WANT a conspiracy to exist, so you will believe literally anything that confirms that conclusion. It makes you feel special and smart--for once.

    I know conspiracy sites exist, but for someone who shrilly demands "proof" at every turn, your posts are extremely light on evidence. , @Rurik Hey JR,

    I see you're having your fun with the shit eaters.

    are their any who are sincerely duped?

    or are they all cynical liars (like the 'wizard') desperately trying to defend the bullshit official narrative in order to protect the real criminals and continue using that singular crime as a pretext for destroying all of Israel's neighbors?

    I recently posted a story of an 87 year old German lady who Germany has sent to prison for questioning some of the holy and sacred tenets of the Holocaust.

    when I read what you wrote here, it reminds me of her queries to the authorities for some proof of what they claim vis-à-vis the Holocaust.

    Because they always, always, end up telling you that the government story is proof of the government story. They always do. It never fails.

    "You know about it [Auschwitz] only through the grapevine-like me." This spurred Bjoern Joensson, the presiding judge, to retort, "It is pointless holding a debate with someone who can't accept any facts," adding: "Neither do I have to prove to you that the world is round."

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/11/14/nazi-grandma/75773774/

    her inquisitors are demanding that their official narrative, because it's the official narrative , is prima facia proof that it's all true, because those in power say it is, sans actual evidence. To doubt them and their narrative is literally the same as questioning if the world is round (except that they won't put you in prison for that). No proof or evidence is necessary. Its like a modern day Galileo where the authorities are simply able to tell everyone what is true, and we're all supposed to fall in line. Or else. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  248. NosytheDuke says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 5:38 am GMT @CanSpeccy Oh come'n. The Wiz isn't as bad as Dershowitz.

    Thing is though, there's probably not much difference between a lawyer and a professional troll.

    Both are annoying and mostly a waste of time.

    The Wiz is a fraud and a troll. All puffery and no pastry. Not worth your time.

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  249. Hippopotamusdrome says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 7:22 am GMT @exiled off mainstreet The Israelis learned their false flag lesson from the Nazis, who used concentration camp inmates dressed as Polish soldiers as part of a phony attack on the frontier radio station "Sender Gleiwitz" a day or so before they invaded Poland.

    There is a conspiracy theory that it was really Poles.

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  250. Hippopotamusdrome says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 8:01 am GMT • 100 Words @Darin Yes, why?

    If you want to start a war, would you want to start with great defeat and loss of your fleet?

    In the thirties, there were three cases of false flag attacks created to justify a war.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukden_Incident
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila

    In none of these cases the attacker actually killed thousands of his own soldiers, what would be the point?

    If you want to start a war, would you want to start with great defeat and loss of your fleet?

    The fleet wasn't lost. The carriers were out at sea and not sunk. Eight battleships, three cruisers and three destroyers were damaged. Battleships were obsolete by that time in the face of aircraft. Battleships were mainly used as AA platforms to protect carriers and to bombard airfields.

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  251. James Charles says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 8:16 am GMT @Pat Casey
    Nothing is more convincing though than the clear discomfort of the three astronauts on what would normally be an occasion to celebrate.
    I know what you mean. I can but believe that you can always trust a tell. For example, this is a hell of a story:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2FyONXh22M

    If that guy is lying, he deserves an academy award. At one point he mentions Ft. Belvoir "in Maryland." Well Ft. Belvoir is in Virginia, and that small mistake strikes me as one he would only make if he was telling the truth. The guy has lots of tells like that that you can trust, I trust.

    Is this a conspiracy?

    U.F.O DISCLOSURE PROJECT -FULL VERSION

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkswXVmG4xM

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  252. Hippopotamusdrome says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 8:21 am GMT @biz Actually, there is no symmetry in conspiracy theories as you imply.

    The definition of a conspiracy theory is an explanation of events that traces them to a secret network, and when presented with contradictory evidence, simply enlarges the network of supposed conspirators rather than modifying the explanation.

    So, just to cite one example, all of the 9/11 controlled demolition stuff is a conspiracy theory because at first it had the government and maybe the property owners in on the secret, but then the circle of supposed conspirators was enlarged to include the editors of Popular Mechanics after they did their study. Or take the moon landing, which involved 'only' thousands of NASA people until you point out that the astronauts left mirrors on the surface of the moon in a precise location, for which astronomers around the world use laser ranging to determine the distance to the moon down to the centimeter level. So then the astronomers who claim to do this had to be added to the list of conspirators and liars for this theory to stand. Then of course the more you point out, the more people who have to get added to the conspiracy, which eventually becomes all of the television industry, and even the Soviets!

    That is the reason why the so-called alternative explanations for 9/11, the moon landing, the various assassinations, the safety of vaccines, etc, are conspiracy theories, while the mainstream explanations are not.

    the astronauts left mirrors on the surface of the moon

    It could also be a mirror on the roof of an unmanned probe.

    • Replies: @biz No it couldn't. If so, it would be orbiting the moon and its location, not to mention the measured distance to it, would be changing constantly. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  253. American Pravda: How the CIA Invented "Conspiracy Theories" – The Unz Review | The Center of the Decentralized says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 8:34 am GMT

    [ ] Source: American Pravda: How the CIA Invented "Conspiracy Theories" – The Unz Review [ ]

  254. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 1:27 pm GMT • 400 Words @Jonathan Revusky
    Hey, shit eater, you ever heard of the "beg the question fallacy"? What that means is that you can't assume the thing that you are trying to prove in your proof.
    I am aware of that particular fallacy, fuckface.
    So you say, but there is actually no sign at all that you are aware of that fallacy.

    In general, I've debated with shit eaters enough to know that, as a general rule, they do not understand the "beg the question" fallacy. Because they always, always, end up telling you that the government story is proof of the government story. They always do. It never fails.


    Video surveillance of Atta at the airport. His purchase of the tickets. Money trails. And etc. etc. etc.
    Well, you see, you don't even understand the basic parameters of the debate. You have to come up with "proof" that is not equally consistent with the person being a patsy. You know, it's like if you say that Lee Harvey Oswald was in the schoolbook depository building at the time of the assassination. Well, that's just as consistent with him being a patsy as being the killer! He has to be in approximately the right place at the right time so that you can frame him for the crime! And the same applies here.

    But you don't understand that apparently!

    So, that there is a record of Atta, or somebody representing that he's Atta, purchasing the tickets, this is just as consistent with Atta being a patsy as actually being a perpetrator. You're presenting this as proof but it is not proof of anything. Or it's stuff like there's a video of some guy who looks like Bin Laden saying he made this happen. I could put up a video making the same claim. These are just airy fairy things that are not real proof of anything. And you apparently think that it's normal that you can just launch some war and kill so many thousands of innocents based on some story with this level of proof. It's just ridiculous.

    Look, at this point, there is a vast literature on this.
    Yes, there is a vast circle jerk of conspiracy theorists.
    Hmm, well, have you read any of of the authors in question? David Ray Griffin, for example? Or Webster Tarpley? Have you looked at any of the material on the Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth website.

    I kind of doubt it. Officialdom just tells you what to think of this stuff and you've almost certainly never checked for yourself.

    Well, I know this. You're not the first shit eater I've debated with.

    The Fake Calls theory is one of the dumbest of those associated with truthers, so it doesn't surprise me to find that you are an adherent.
    I simply asked you what the proof of the story was. Okay, so somebody says they got a phone call. And that's proof. For you. Or they say that there were meetings in Afghanistan in which the attacks were discussed. What is the proof of that? It's just the story they tell and the story is proof of the story. You actually clearly do not understand the "beg the question" fallacy.

    Now, even if the phone calls were technically possible, which I do doubt, it hardly is proof. And certainly it is not proof of the central thesis of the government, that all of this was orchestrated by people in faroff Afghanistan. That was the basis for the subsequent war that was launched.

    Aside from various non-experts claiming that the collapse "looked like a controlled demolition" there is no evidence for this theory. No explosives found.
    Well, now it's becoming clear that you just don't know anything about this topic. Go to http://ae911truth.org/ and you'll see that the people saying this have very high levels of expertise.

    As for there being no evidence for the "theory" that WTC7 was a controlled demolition, the case is in fact overwhelming. This is simply because there is no building collapse that looks exactly like a controlled demolition that is not, in fact, a controlled demolition. Something that symmetrical obviously has to be engineered.

    As for no proof of explosives being found, this is because they specifically did not look for any.

    A 90-ton aluminum tube crashing into 100,000 tons of structural steel, is simply not going to cause the latter to disintegrate.
    Evidence for this statement? Your feelings? Not very scientific, fuckface.
    Well, go to http://ae911truth.org/ and get educated. Anybody with, let's say, a decent high school education, who spends as much as a half day on the internet contrasting different sources, will see that the ae911truth people are simply telling the truth. And that means that the government story of what happened is simply impossible.

    This is most absolutely clear with the WTC7, since that building was not even hit by a plane. They are trying to claim that a building can implode in a perfectly symmetrical way from uncontrolled fires. The building has 40-odd steel support columns that would all have to give way within the same split second. That has to be engineered.

    You have to come up with "proof" that is not equally consistent with the person being a patsy.

    This is not how evidence works. YOU have to come up with proof that the hijackers were patsies. I mean, your whole line is breathtakingly stupid. Now you prove that Muhammad Atta was not a shape-shifting alien. Well, he MUST be a shape-shifting alien because you have NO evidence that he isn't one!

    So, that there is a record of Atta, or somebody representing that he's Atta, purchasing the tickets

    And now you are basically admitting my shape-shifting alien theory is true!

    it's normal that you can just launch some war and kill so many thousands of innocents based on some story with this level of proof.

    The war was incredibly stupid. But people do stupid things based on real-life events ALL THE TIME. 9/11 doesn't have to be fake for the war to be a horrendous idea.

    I simply asked you what the proof of the story was. Okay, so somebody says they got a phone call. And that's proof. For you.

    Here there is lots of evidence. Yes, we have multiple people who say they received phone calls from loved ones. We have multiple recordings of these phone calls. We have the phone records of these phone calls. And we have zero evidence that any of those things are fraudulent or incorrect.

    Now, even if the phone calls were technically possible, which I do doubt, it hardly is proof.

    Your "doubt" just shows your ignorance. Air phones actually existed. I know my only proof is the experience of tens of thousands of people who made calls from airplanes and the decade long existence of two competing companies who manufactured, installed and maintained those devices. But sure, maybe the shape-shifters did all that.

    Anybody with, let's say, a decent high school education, who spends as much as a half day on the internet contrasting different sources, will see that the ae911truth people are simply telling the truth.

    Oh, yeah, why spend years getting a degree in structural engineering when you can spend an afternoon and have it all figured out? Look, you still think the phone calls were fake and impossible, and you expect me to believe that you understand the nuances of a complex, dynamic process like a building collapse? The fact is that you really, really WANT a conspiracy to exist, so you will believe literally anything that confirms that conclusion. It makes you feel special and smart–for once.

    I know conspiracy sites exist, but for someone who shrilly demands "proof" at every turn, your posts are extremely light on evidence.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    This is not how evidence works. YOU have to come up with proof that the hijackers were patsies.
    No, that is 180 degrees from the way things do work. If you say these guys committed the crime, the onus is on you to say what the evidence is. In a trial, it is the prosecution that must prove its case. All a defense lawyer has to do is show that the prosecution has not proven the guilt of his client. That's it.

    But I've been there and done that and this is just typical shit eater stuff. The shit eater always tells you that the onus is on you to prove something to him. No, if you say these guys committed this crime, OBVIOUSLY the onus is on you to prove it.

    So, okay then you start waving your hands saying that the official story is so self-evidently correct that anybody who questions it is just obviously crazy. So, logically, there's no getting around this: you're tacitly saying that there is overwhelming evidence for the story. There must be, because you're saying that the people who doubt the story are obviously crazy.

    So, obviously, I ask you, like I ask any of the shit eaters, what is the evidence. Then you try to tell me that asking for the evidence is an illegitimate trick! It's so ridiculous it's hilarious, but you're not even the first person to say that to me. At least two or three other shit eaters have told me over the past year that my asking for evidence is a "cheap debating trick" or something like that! LOL.

    Finally, what you've come up with as "evidence"is just such an amazing bunch of crap, frankly. Like saying that Mohammed Atta bought a plane ticket. Well, the other passengers bought a plane ticket, didn't they? So they must have hijacked the plane, no?

    But the thing is that you don't even understand that the evidence you produce cannot be equally consistent with the person being a patsy as actually having done it! That a plane ticket was purchased in somebody's name. Well, that's totally consistent with an attempt to frame the person for the crime. In any case, it's not even proof that the person even boarded the plane! I could go online and buy a plane ticket in anybody's name to frame the person for a crime....

    Just like I could put out a video saying I somehow made the planes fly into the buildings...

    This is the kind of pathetic crap that you are coming up with when I ask you to outline the strongest evidence available!

    Here there is lots of evidence. Yes, we have multiple people who say they received phone calls from loved ones.
    As I said before, it's just hearsay. Besides, check this out: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/sep/02/september11.usa

    Mohammed Atta's father says he got a phone call from his son the a day AFTER 9/11.

    "My son called me the day after the attacks on September 12 at around midday. We spoke for two minutes about this and that."
    I guess you don't think that is true Well, Mohammed Atta Sr says he got a phone call, so by your reasoning, he got a phone call, no?
    Your "doubt" just shows your ignorance. Air phones actually existed.
    Goof grief. It is such a waste of time to debate with a shit eater. You guys always try to lower the bar to a ridiculously level. Like now, your argument is that those Airfones "existed". Nothing more. They existed! Guns existed in 1963. Therefore Oswald got a gun and shot Kennedy.

    Anyway, the problem here is that they first tried to claim that the calls were made from cell phones and then, when it seemed apparent that the calls were not technically possible, said it came from the seat-back phones. Except apparently, the models of plane in question did not have the seat back phones at that point in time. This is all under dispute somewhat and is murky. Regardless, even if the seat-back phones were there on all the planes in question, and thus, the calls were technically possible, that certainly does not prove that the story is true. You're so many degrees away from providing anything that resembles proof of the story!

    Look, you still think the phone calls were fake and impossible,
    Hey, shit eater, you should read what I wrote. I said that I doubted that they were possible. That means I don't know for absolutely sure. Simply demonstrating that the phone calls were possible is not proof that they really happened. A good reference on this is an article by David Ray Griffin from a few years back on this phone calls topic:

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/phone-calls-from-the-9-11-airliners/16924

    DRG studies the various claims and the way the story changed and all the problems with it, and based on what DRG outlines, I think a reasonable person would have very great doubts that this whole story of the phone calls from the planes is really true. Obviously, they would need to claim that these phone calls happened in order to establish the official story. So we're really just about back to the notion that the official story is proof of the official story.

    and you expect me to believe that you understand the nuances of a complex, dynamic process like a building collapse?
    Well, the reason you say that is because, of course, you've never studied the question. No, in fact, there is really very little "nuance" to the question. What they are saying happened is simply physically impossible. All you have to understand is that the steel skeleton of each steel framed high-rise building is made up of 40-odd massive structural steel columns and the only way the thing can fall straight down vertically is for all the columns to fail at precisely the same instant. There is no way that this can result from fires spreading in an uncontrolled manner. At best, you would get very asymmetrical damage. The straight-down implosion that you see with WTC7 must be engineered. It does not take more than half a day on the internet contrasting the various arguments and considering them to realize this. It really just does not.

    I pointedly asked you what 9/11 Truth material you were familiar with. I specifically asked you whether you had ever read anything by David Ray Griffin or Webster Tarpley, or looked at any of the material on http://ae911truth.org

    You did not answer the question. I infer that this means the answer is no. It's an easy to conclusion to draw because you just don't really know what you're talking about. You don't even know what the basic parameters of the debate are.

    This is a point that one always reaches when debating with a shit eater. It begins to dawn on the shit eater that he really does not know WTF he is talking about and that he is out of his depth intellectually. So you have a fork in the road at this point. You can amp up all the insults, "conspiracy theorist nya nya". Or you can just walk away. Whatever. But go get educated. Seriously. Everybody can see that you don't know what you're talking. You've never studied the question and you're just making an ass of yourself. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  255. Rurik says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 2:53 pm GMT • 300 Words @Jonathan Revusky
    Hey, shit eater, you ever heard of the "beg the question fallacy"? What that means is that you can't assume the thing that you are trying to prove in your proof.
    I am aware of that particular fallacy, fuckface.
    So you say, but there is actually no sign at all that you are aware of that fallacy.

    In general, I've debated with shit eaters enough to know that, as a general rule, they do not understand the "beg the question" fallacy. Because they always, always, end up telling you that the government story is proof of the government story. They always do. It never fails.


    Video surveillance of Atta at the airport. His purchase of the tickets. Money trails. And etc. etc. etc.
    Well, you see, you don't even understand the basic parameters of the debate. You have to come up with "proof" that is not equally consistent with the person being a patsy. You know, it's like if you say that Lee Harvey Oswald was in the schoolbook depository building at the time of the assassination. Well, that's just as consistent with him being a patsy as being the killer! He has to be in approximately the right place at the right time so that you can frame him for the crime! And the same applies here.

    But you don't understand that apparently!

    So, that there is a record of Atta, or somebody representing that he's Atta, purchasing the tickets, this is just as consistent with Atta being a patsy as actually being a perpetrator. You're presenting this as proof but it is not proof of anything. Or it's stuff like there's a video of some guy who looks like Bin Laden saying he made this happen. I could put up a video making the same claim. These are just airy fairy things that are not real proof of anything. And you apparently think that it's normal that you can just launch some war and kill so many thousands of innocents based on some story with this level of proof. It's just ridiculous.

    Look, at this point, there is a vast literature on this.
    Yes, there is a vast circle jerk of conspiracy theorists.
    Hmm, well, have you read any of of the authors in question? David Ray Griffin, for example? Or Webster Tarpley? Have you looked at any of the material on the Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth website.

    I kind of doubt it. Officialdom just tells you what to think of this stuff and you've almost certainly never checked for yourself.

    Well, I know this. You're not the first shit eater I've debated with.

    The Fake Calls theory is one of the dumbest of those associated with truthers, so it doesn't surprise me to find that you are an adherent.
    I simply asked you what the proof of the story was. Okay, so somebody says they got a phone call. And that's proof. For you. Or they say that there were meetings in Afghanistan in which the attacks were discussed. What is the proof of that? It's just the story they tell and the story is proof of the story. You actually clearly do not understand the "beg the question" fallacy.

    Now, even if the phone calls were technically possible, which I do doubt, it hardly is proof. And certainly it is not proof of the central thesis of the government, that all of this was orchestrated by people in faroff Afghanistan. That was the basis for the subsequent war that was launched.

    Aside from various non-experts claiming that the collapse "looked like a controlled demolition" there is no evidence for this theory. No explosives found.
    Well, now it's becoming clear that you just don't know anything about this topic. Go to http://ae911truth.org/ and you'll see that the people saying this have very high levels of expertise.

    As for there being no evidence for the "theory" that WTC7 was a controlled demolition, the case is in fact overwhelming. This is simply because there is no building collapse that looks exactly like a controlled demolition that is not, in fact, a controlled demolition. Something that symmetrical obviously has to be engineered.

    As for no proof of explosives being found, this is because they specifically did not look for any.

    A 90-ton aluminum tube crashing into 100,000 tons of structural steel, is simply not going to cause the latter to disintegrate.
    Evidence for this statement? Your feelings? Not very scientific, fuckface.
    Well, go to http://ae911truth.org/ and get educated. Anybody with, let's say, a decent high school education, who spends as much as a half day on the internet contrasting different sources, will see that the ae911truth people are simply telling the truth. And that means that the government story of what happened is simply impossible.

    This is most absolutely clear with the WTC7, since that building was not even hit by a plane. They are trying to claim that a building can implode in a perfectly symmetrical way from uncontrolled fires. The building has 40-odd steel support columns that would all have to give way within the same split second. That has to be engineered.

    Hey JR,

    I see you're having your fun with the shit eaters.

    are their any who are sincerely duped?

    or are they all cynical liars (like the 'wizard') desperately trying to defend the bullshit official narrative in order to protect the real criminals and continue using that singular crime as a pretext for destroying all of Israel's neighbors?

    I recently posted a story of an 87 year old German lady who Germany has sent to prison for questioning some of the holy and sacred tenets of the Holocaust.

    when I read what you wrote here, it reminds me of her queries to the authorities for some proof of what they claim vis-à-vis the Holocaust.

    Because they always, always, end up telling you that the government story is proof of the government story. They always do. It never fails.


    "You know about it [Auschwitz] only through the grapevine-like me." This spurred Bjoern Joensson, the presiding judge, to retort, "It is pointless holding a debate with someone who can't accept any facts," adding: "Neither do I have to prove to you that the world is round."

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/11/14/nazi-grandma/75773774/

    her inquisitors are demanding that their official narrative, because it's the official narrative , is prima facia proof that it's all true, because those in power say it is, sans actual evidence. To doubt them and their narrative is literally the same as questioning if the world is round (except that they won't put you in prison for that). No proof or evidence is necessary. Its like a modern day Galileo where the authorities are simply able to tell everyone what is true, and we're all supposed to fall in line. Or else.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    To doubt them and their narrative is literally the same as questioning if the world is round (except that they won't put you in prison for that).
    Well if you're earnest enough about it, they'll probably put you in a mental hospital, which, as the US Government converges on the Stalinist model during the forthcoming Hillary Administration, is likely how they'll deal with 9/11 Truthers - to the sound of cheerful cackling from the likes of the Wiz. , @Jonathan Revusky
    I see you're having your fun with the shit eaters.

    are their any who are sincerely duped?

    I honestly don't know. At times, it seems like they're working from a basic playbook. Because they always try the same basic tricks. They almost always end up claiming that the proof of the government story is the government story. And then when you point out that it isn't, they then turn around and say that somehow the evidence is on you to prove something.

    And then if you further demand some real evidence, they'll usually just walk away. But then if they offer evidence, then it does get hilarious. They'll invariably say that there are these videos and Bin Laden admitted it. I could make a video saying I did it.

    This Boris shit eater claimed that Mohammed Atta buying a plane ticket was proof. He also claimed that there was video of Atta going through airport security. I looked for that and this is the only thing I could find:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ilffe-4Tuw

    I was trying to figure out how many degrees away this is from proving what needs to be proven.

    Is that even Atta? Or is it just some vaguely middle eastern looking guy. Which airport is this at? Okay, suppose it is him in the airport in question. How do we know he even got on the plane after that? He coulda just gone to starbucks, had a coffee and then left the airport. Well, okay, let's suppose he got on the plane. How do we know he hijacked it? And if he did hijack the plane, how do we know that this was planned by OBL off in Afghanistan?

    The number of leaps you have to make to think that this is proof of the official story is... When you think about how they presented this whole story almost immediately and then it was off to war. Based on this kind of thing, how could they have investigated so quickly and figured out that the origin of the attacks was in Afghanistan?

    The whole thing is such an obvious stitch-up when you look at it. , @Jonathan Revusky

    I recently posted a story of an 87 year old German lady who Germany has sent to prison for questioning some of the holy and sacred tenets of the Holocaust.
    Yeah, it's the same kind of thing. I'm actually writing an essay about these sorts of issues because it finally occurred to me that this is exactly like religious fundamentalism. You ask somebody what the proof of some bible story is and the answer is that it's in the bible.

    Well, what's the difference between the two things in essence? As far as I can see, the important difference is that it doesn't really matter whether Moses shook a stick and caused the Red Sea to part. Who cares whether somebody believes this really happened or not? But believing that uncontrolled fires can cause a steel-framed building to collapse in a perfectly symmetrical manner -- this is just as crazy and has far more dangerous consequence when people believe this kind of shit.

    But as regards this Ursula Haverbeck matter, the German people must really be so mentally colonized at this point to put up with this shit, putting 87 year old ladies in prison for thought crimes.

    There is some really weird shit going on, you know. Have you seen this whole "burkini" business in France? There are all these localities on the Mediterranean coast in France that are fining Muslim women for NOT showing enough skin on the beach!

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/28/french-mayors-burkini-ban-court-ruling

    Think about that... Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  256. CanSpeccy says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 3:27 pm GMT • 100 Words @Jonathan Revusky
    Oh come'n. The Wiz isn't as bad as Dershowitz.
    Well, probably not, but that would mostly be because he lacks the talent.

    I mean one thing that is clear about this Wizard is that this guy is really really stupid. I mean, you ask him for proof of the government story and he tells you that the government story is proof of the government story.

    Of course, Alan Dershowitz would make the same argument basically, but it would be masked in a more clever way. The Wizard just openly tells you that the proof of the government story is that it's the government story. Sheesh, what a moron...

    Thing is though, there's probably not much difference between a lawyer and a professional troll.
    Well, he apparently really is a lawyer down in Australia. That is what he has said, and I believe it is true.

    I mean one thing that is clear about this Wizard is that this guy is really really stupid. I mean, you ask him for proof of the government story and he tells you that the government story is proof of the government story.

    But that's the thing. That's how truth is defined in this politically correct age. So it's by definition, the government story is proof of the government story.

    George Orwell unfortunately mis-dated his book 1984 , he was about 20 years too soon.

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  257. CanSpeccy says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 4:44 pm GMT • 300 Words @Wizard of Oz Well you don't rave like the frothing Revusky so I shall mention here an interesting link to follow and that is Wikipedia on thermite. I don't remember anything about thermite reactions at least as such from 6th form Chemistry and now realise that aluminium is frequently at the core of thermite reactions, thereby lending support to the recently expounded theories of heating, and explosions, which would correct the official versions. (There was about 30 tons of aluminium in each plane from memory). I couldn't see anything about a thermite connection to demolitions.

    I don't remember anything about thermite reactions at least as such from 6th form Chemistry and now realise that aluminium is frequently at the core of thermite reactions, thereby lending support to the recently expounded theories of heating, and explosions, which would correct the official versions.

    Yes, either your ignorance is profound, or your intent to divert the discussion into a nonsensical channel is exposed.

    Bulk aluminum doesn't ignite in a building fire. According to one source, aluminum must be vaporized before it will burn and the boiling point of aluminum is 3,986 Farenheit, whereas the adiabatic flame temperature of Kerosene in air, at around 3597 Farenheit, is 400 degrees lower. Moreover, the jet fuel fires in the Twin Towers would likely have burned at considerably lower temperatures due to oxygen supply limitations.

    Aluminum burns readily in a thermitic compound comprising aluminum in a finely divided form intimately mixed with an oxidizer, usually iron oxide. In the process of combustion aluminum is oxidized, while the iron oxide is reduced to pure molten iron, which will be found in the reaction residue in the form of iron microspheres, just as were abundant in the ash collected in the vicinity of the Twin Towers.

    Among the best authorities on thermite is the National Institute of Standards, or NIST, the non-governmental body hired to "explain" the collapse of the Twin Towers and WTC 7. In the past, NIST worked closely with the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory on the development of explosive nanothermites .

    Oddly, it apparently never occurred to the NIST investigators of the collapse of three WTC buildings that explosives such as thermite, a material long used in controlled building demolitions , might have been involved in the perfect implosion of three WTC buildings.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz The recent doco about the American chemist and Norwegian metallurgist who sought to correct the official version by reference to aluminium as sn explosive hypothesised that it was molten aluminium flowing down into pools of water that explained the reported explosive sounds. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  258. CanSpeccy says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 4:52 pm GMT • 100 Words @Rurik Hey JR,

    I see you're having your fun with the shit eaters.

    are their any who are sincerely duped?

    or are they all cynical liars (like the 'wizard') desperately trying to defend the bullshit official narrative in order to protect the real criminals and continue using that singular crime as a pretext for destroying all of Israel's neighbors?

    I recently posted a story of an 87 year old German lady who Germany has sent to prison for questioning some of the holy and sacred tenets of the Holocaust.

    when I read what you wrote here, it reminds me of her queries to the authorities for some proof of what they claim vis-à-vis the Holocaust.

    Because they always, always, end up telling you that the government story is proof of the government story. They always do. It never fails.

    "You know about it [Auschwitz] only through the grapevine-like me." This spurred Bjoern Joensson, the presiding judge, to retort, "It is pointless holding a debate with someone who can't accept any facts," adding: "Neither do I have to prove to you that the world is round."

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/11/14/nazi-grandma/75773774/

    her inquisitors are demanding that their official narrative, because it's the official narrative , is prima facia proof that it's all true, because those in power say it is, sans actual evidence. To doubt them and their narrative is literally the same as questioning if the world is round (except that they won't put you in prison for that). No proof or evidence is necessary. Its like a modern day Galileo where the authorities are simply able to tell everyone what is true, and we're all supposed to fall in line. Or else.

    To doubt them and their narrative is literally the same as questioning if the world is round (except that they won't put you in prison for that).

    Well if you're earnest enough about it, they'll probably put you in a mental hospital, which, as the US Government converges on the Stalinist model during the forthcoming Hillary Administration, is likely how they'll deal with 9/11 Truthers - to the sound of cheerful cackling from the likes of the Wiz.

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  259. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 6:46 pm GMT • 1,200 Words @Boris
    You have to come up with "proof" that is not equally consistent with the person being a patsy.
    This is not how evidence works. YOU have to come up with proof that the hijackers were patsies. I mean, your whole line is breathtakingly stupid. Now you prove that Muhammad Atta was not a shape-shifting alien. Well, he MUST be a shape-shifting alien because you have NO evidence that he isn't one!
    So, that there is a record of Atta, or somebody representing that he's Atta, purchasing the tickets
    And now you are basically admitting my shape-shifting alien theory is true!
    it's normal that you can just launch some war and kill so many thousands of innocents based on some story with this level of proof.
    The war was incredibly stupid. But people do stupid things based on real-life events ALL THE TIME. 9/11 doesn't have to be fake for the war to be a horrendous idea.
    I simply asked you what the proof of the story was. Okay, so somebody says they got a phone call. And that's proof. For you.
    Here there is lots of evidence. Yes, we have multiple people who say they received phone calls from loved ones. We have multiple recordings of these phone calls. We have the phone records of these phone calls. And we have zero evidence that any of those things are fraudulent or incorrect.
    Now, even if the phone calls were technically possible, which I do doubt, it hardly is proof.
    Your "doubt" just shows your ignorance. Air phones actually existed. I know my only proof is the experience of tens of thousands of people who made calls from airplanes and the decade long existence of two competing companies who manufactured, installed and maintained those devices. But sure, maybe the shape-shifters did all that.
    Anybody with, let's say, a decent high school education, who spends as much as a half day on the internet contrasting different sources, will see that the ae911truth people are simply telling the truth.
    Oh, yeah, why spend years getting a degree in structural engineering when you can spend an afternoon and have it all figured out? Look, you still think the phone calls were fake and impossible, and you expect me to believe that you understand the nuances of a complex, dynamic process like a building collapse? The fact is that you really, really WANT a conspiracy to exist, so you will believe literally anything that confirms that conclusion. It makes you feel special and smart--for once.

    I know conspiracy sites exist, but for someone who shrilly demands "proof" at every turn, your posts are extremely light on evidence.

    This is not how evidence works. YOU have to come up with proof that the hijackers were patsies.

    No, that is 180 degrees from the way things do work. If you say these guys committed the crime, the onus is on you to say what the evidence is. In a trial, it is the prosecution that must prove its case. All a defense lawyer has to do is show that the prosecution has not proven the guilt of his client. That's it.

    But I've been there and done that and this is just typical shit eater stuff. The shit eater always tells you that the onus is on you to prove something to him. No, if you say these guys committed this crime, OBVIOUSLY the onus is on you to prove it.

    So, okay then you start waving your hands saying that the official story is so self-evidently correct that anybody who questions it is just obviously crazy. So, logically, there's no getting around this: you're tacitly saying that there is overwhelming evidence for the story. There must be, because you're saying that the people who doubt the story are obviously crazy.

    So, obviously, I ask you, like I ask any of the shit eaters, what is the evidence. Then you try to tell me that asking for the evidence is an illegitimate trick! It's so ridiculous it's hilarious, but you're not even the first person to say that to me. At least two or three other shit eaters have told me over the past year that my asking for evidence is a "cheap debating trick" or something like that! LOL.

    Finally, what you've come up with as "evidence"is just such an amazing bunch of crap, frankly. Like saying that Mohammed Atta bought a plane ticket. Well, the other passengers bought a plane ticket, didn't they? So they must have hijacked the plane, no?

    But the thing is that you don't even understand that the evidence you produce cannot be equally consistent with the person being a patsy as actually having done it! That a plane ticket was purchased in somebody's name. Well, that's totally consistent with an attempt to frame the person for the crime. In any case, it's not even proof that the person even boarded the plane! I could go online and buy a plane ticket in anybody's name to frame the person for a crime .

    Just like I could put out a video saying I somehow made the planes fly into the buildings

    This is the kind of pathetic crap that you are coming up with when I ask you to outline the strongest evidence available!

    Here there is lots of evidence. Yes, we have multiple people who say they received phone calls from loved ones.

    As I said before, it's just hearsay. Besides, check this out: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/sep/02/september11.usa

    Mohammed Atta's father says he got a phone call from his son the a day AFTER 9/11.

    "My son called me the day after the attacks on September 12 at around midday. We spoke for two minutes about this and that."

    I guess you don't think that is true Well, Mohammed Atta Sr says he got a phone call, so by your reasoning, he got a phone call, no?

    Your "doubt" just shows your ignorance. Air phones actually existed.

    Goof grief. It is such a waste of time to debate with a shit eater. You guys always try to lower the bar to a ridiculously level. Like now, your argument is that those Airfones "existed". Nothing more. They existed! Guns existed in 1963. Therefore Oswald got a gun and shot Kennedy.

    Anyway, the problem here is that they first tried to claim that the calls were made from cell phones and then, when it seemed apparent that the calls were not technically possible, said it came from the seat-back phones. Except apparently, the models of plane in question did not have the seat back phones at that point in time. This is all under dispute somewhat and is murky. Regardless, even if the seat-back phones were there on all the planes in question, and thus, the calls were technically possible, that certainly does not prove that the story is true. You're so many degrees away from providing anything that resembles proof of the story!

    Look, you still think the phone calls were fake and impossible,

    Hey, shit eater, you should read what I wrote. I said that I doubted that they were possible. That means I don't know for absolutely sure. Simply demonstrating that the phone calls were possible is not proof that they really happened. A good reference on this is an article by David Ray Griffin from a few years back on this phone calls topic:

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/phone-calls-from-the-9-11-airliners/16924

    DRG studies the various claims and the way the story changed and all the problems with it, and based on what DRG outlines, I think a reasonable person would have very great doubts that this whole story of the phone calls from the planes is really true. Obviously, they would need to claim that these phone calls happened in order to establish the official story. So we're really just about back to the notion that the official story is proof of the official story.

    and you expect me to believe that you understand the nuances of a complex, dynamic process like a building collapse?

    Well, the reason you say that is because, of course, you've never studied the question. No, in fact, there is really very little "nuance" to the question. What they are saying happened is simply physically impossible. All you have to understand is that the steel skeleton of each steel framed high-rise building is made up of 40-odd massive structural steel columns and the only way the thing can fall straight down vertically is for all the columns to fail at precisely the same instant. There is no way that this can result from fires spreading in an uncontrolled manner. At best, you would get very asymmetrical damage. The straight-down implosion that you see with WTC7 must be engineered. It does not take more than half a day on the internet contrasting the various arguments and considering them to realize this. It really just does not.

    I pointedly asked you what 9/11 Truth material you were familiar with. I specifically asked you whether you had ever read anything by David Ray Griffin or Webster Tarpley, or looked at any of the material on http://ae911truth.org

    You did not answer the question. I infer that this means the answer is no. It's an easy to conclusion to draw because you just don't really know what you're talking about. You don't even know what the basic parameters of the debate are.

    This is a point that one always reaches when debating with a shit eater. It begins to dawn on the shit eater that he really does not know WTF he is talking about and that he is out of his depth intellectually. So you have a fork in the road at this point. You can amp up all the insults, "conspiracy theorist nya nya". Or you can just walk away. Whatever. But go get educated. Seriously. Everybody can see that you don't know what you're talking. You've never studied the question and you're just making an ass of yourself.

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  260. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 6:59 pm GMT • 400 Words @Rurik Hey JR,

    I see you're having your fun with the shit eaters.

    are their any who are sincerely duped?

    or are they all cynical liars (like the 'wizard') desperately trying to defend the bullshit official narrative in order to protect the real criminals and continue using that singular crime as a pretext for destroying all of Israel's neighbors?

    I recently posted a story of an 87 year old German lady who Germany has sent to prison for questioning some of the holy and sacred tenets of the Holocaust.

    when I read what you wrote here, it reminds me of her queries to the authorities for some proof of what they claim vis-à-vis the Holocaust.

    Because they always, always, end up telling you that the government story is proof of the government story. They always do. It never fails.

    "You know about it [Auschwitz] only through the grapevine-like me." This spurred Bjoern Joensson, the presiding judge, to retort, "It is pointless holding a debate with someone who can't accept any facts," adding: "Neither do I have to prove to you that the world is round."

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/11/14/nazi-grandma/75773774/

    her inquisitors are demanding that their official narrative, because it's the official narrative , is prima facia proof that it's all true, because those in power say it is, sans actual evidence. To doubt them and their narrative is literally the same as questioning if the world is round (except that they won't put you in prison for that). No proof or evidence is necessary. Its like a modern day Galileo where the authorities are simply able to tell everyone what is true, and we're all supposed to fall in line. Or else.

    I see you're having your fun with the shit eaters.

    are their any who are sincerely duped?

    I honestly don't know. At times, it seems like they're working from a basic playbook. Because they always try the same basic tricks. They almost always end up claiming that the proof of the government story is the government story. And then when you point out that it isn't, they then turn around and say that somehow the evidence is on you to prove something.

    And then if you further demand some real evidence, they'll usually just walk away. But then if they offer evidence, then it does get hilarious. They'll invariably say that there are these videos and Bin Laden admitted it. I could make a video saying I did it.

    This Boris shit eater claimed that Mohammed Atta buying a plane ticket was proof. He also claimed that there was video of Atta going through airport security. I looked for that and this is the only thing I could find:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ilffe-4Tuw

    I was trying to figure out how many degrees away this is from proving what needs to be proven.

    Is that even Atta? Or is it just some vaguely middle eastern looking guy. Which airport is this at? Okay, suppose it is him in the airport in question. How do we know he even got on the plane after that? He coulda just gone to starbucks, had a coffee and then left the airport. Well, okay, let's suppose he got on the plane. How do we know he hijacked it? And if he did hijack the plane, how do we know that this was planned by OBL off in Afghanistan?

    The number of leaps you have to make to think that this is proof of the official story is When you think about how they presented this whole story almost immediately and then it was off to war. Based on this kind of thing, how could they have investigated so quickly and figured out that the origin of the attacks was in Afghanistan?

    The whole thing is such an obvious stitch-up when you look at it.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    the evidence is on you to prove something.
    I meant: the onus is on you to prove something. Finally, I guess they go through all these various sophomoric debating tricks because that's what they've got. There is no "proof" of the official 9/11 story that withstands the laugh test, so they always end up falling back on the same BS, the story is proof of the story, the onus is on you to prove something to them blah blah... Same old, same old. It's a waste of time to debate with a shit eater. , @Boris
    This Boris shit eater claimed that Mohammed Atta buying a plane ticket was proof.
    This is an obvious fucking lie.

    You asked:"Anyway, what "videos" and "records" are you referring to specifically?"
    I said: "Video surveillance of Atta at the airport. His purchase of the tickets. Money trails. And etc. etc. etc."

    Nowhere did I say Atta buying a plane ticket was proof, or anything similar.

    Dishonest or stupid? My answer--both.

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  261. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 7:07 pm GMT • 200 Words @Rurik Hey JR,

    I see you're having your fun with the shit eaters.

    are their any who are sincerely duped?

    or are they all cynical liars (like the 'wizard') desperately trying to defend the bullshit official narrative in order to protect the real criminals and continue using that singular crime as a pretext for destroying all of Israel's neighbors?

    I recently posted a story of an 87 year old German lady who Germany has sent to prison for questioning some of the holy and sacred tenets of the Holocaust.

    when I read what you wrote here, it reminds me of her queries to the authorities for some proof of what they claim vis-à-vis the Holocaust.

    Because they always, always, end up telling you that the government story is proof of the government story. They always do. It never fails.

    "You know about it [Auschwitz] only through the grapevine-like me." This spurred Bjoern Joensson, the presiding judge, to retort, "It is pointless holding a debate with someone who can't accept any facts," adding: "Neither do I have to prove to you that the world is round."

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/11/14/nazi-grandma/75773774/

    her inquisitors are demanding that their official narrative, because it's the official narrative , is prima facia proof that it's all true, because those in power say it is, sans actual evidence. To doubt them and their narrative is literally the same as questioning if the world is round (except that they won't put you in prison for that). No proof or evidence is necessary. Its like a modern day Galileo where the authorities are simply able to tell everyone what is true, and we're all supposed to fall in line. Or else.

    I recently posted a story of an 87 year old German lady who Germany has sent to prison for questioning some of the holy and sacred tenets of the Holocaust.

    Yeah, it's the same kind of thing. I'm actually writing an essay about these sorts of issues because it finally occurred to me that this is exactly like religious fundamentalism. You ask somebody what the proof of some bible story is and the answer is that it's in the bible.

    Well, what's the difference between the two things in essence? As far as I can see, the important difference is that it doesn't really matter whether Moses shook a stick and caused the Red Sea to part. Who cares whether somebody believes this really happened or not? But believing that uncontrolled fires can cause a steel-framed building to collapse in a perfectly symmetrical manner - this is just as crazy and has far more dangerous consequence when people believe this kind of shit.

    But as regards this Ursula Haverbeck matter, the German people must really be so mentally colonized at this point to put up with this shit, putting 87 year old ladies in prison for thought crimes.

    There is some really weird shit going on, you know. Have you seen this whole "burkini" business in France? There are all these localities on the Mediterranean coast in France that are fining Muslim women for NOT showing enough skin on the beach!

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/28/french-mayors-burkini-ban-court-ruling

    Think about that

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  262. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 7:12 pm GMT • 100 Words @Jonathan Revusky
    I see you're having your fun with the shit eaters.

    are their any who are sincerely duped?

    I honestly don't know. At times, it seems like they're working from a basic playbook. Because they always try the same basic tricks. They almost always end up claiming that the proof of the government story is the government story. And then when you point out that it isn't, they then turn around and say that somehow the evidence is on you to prove something.

    And then if you further demand some real evidence, they'll usually just walk away. But then if they offer evidence, then it does get hilarious. They'll invariably say that there are these videos and Bin Laden admitted it. I could make a video saying I did it.

    This Boris shit eater claimed that Mohammed Atta buying a plane ticket was proof. He also claimed that there was video of Atta going through airport security. I looked for that and this is the only thing I could find:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ilffe-4Tuw

    I was trying to figure out how many degrees away this is from proving what needs to be proven.

    Is that even Atta? Or is it just some vaguely middle eastern looking guy. Which airport is this at? Okay, suppose it is him in the airport in question. How do we know he even got on the plane after that? He coulda just gone to starbucks, had a coffee and then left the airport. Well, okay, let's suppose he got on the plane. How do we know he hijacked it? And if he did hijack the plane, how do we know that this was planned by OBL off in Afghanistan?

    The number of leaps you have to make to think that this is proof of the official story is... When you think about how they presented this whole story almost immediately and then it was off to war. Based on this kind of thing, how could they have investigated so quickly and figured out that the origin of the attacks was in Afghanistan?

    The whole thing is such an obvious stitch-up when you look at it.

    the evidence is on you to prove something.

    I meant: the onus is on you to prove something. Finally, I guess they go through all these various sophomoric debating tricks because that's what they've got. There is no "proof" of the official 9/11 story that withstands the laugh test, so they always end up falling back on the same BS, the story is proof of the story, the onus is on you to prove something to them blah blah Same old, same old. It's a waste of time to debate with a shit eater.

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  263. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 7:21 pm GMT • 100 Words @Darin Yes, why?

    If you want to start a war, would you want to start with great defeat and loss of your fleet?

    In the thirties, there were three cases of false flag attacks created to justify a war.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukden_Incident
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila

    In none of these cases the attacker actually killed thousands of his own soldiers, what would be the point?

    In none of these cases the attacker actually killed thousands of his own soldiers, what would be the point?

    Well, the answer should be obvious, no? You have an existing situation in which eat least 80% of the U.S. population is opposed to the war and you want to mobilize them. If you play chess, there are all these openings called "gambits" where you sacrifice a pawn or two to more rapidly mobilize your forces.

    3000 people is really just peanuts on a national level. If the result is that you get all this outrage and suddenly the majority of the population is screaming for war, well that could be well worth it.

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  264. biz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 8:07 pm GMT @Hippopotamusdrome

    the astronauts left mirrors on the surface of the moon
    It could also be a mirror on the roof of an unmanned probe.

    No it couldn't. If so, it would be orbiting the moon and its location, not to mention the measured distance to it, would be changing constantly.

    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome It would be a probe that would land on the surface, like the russian Luna. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  265. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 9:35 pm GMT • 700 Words

    So, okay then you start waving your hands saying that the official story is so self-evidently correct that anybody who questions it is just obviously crazy.

    I never said this. Being skeptical of the official story is fine. But you aren't just skeptical. You are absolutely positive that the official story is false. You are so sure that the official story is wrong that you heap abuse on people who haven't decided the same. For that level of certitude, you need some actual evidence, not just your feelings about things.

    So, obviously, I ask you, like I ask any of the shit eaters, what is the evidence.

    Are you an actual child? You can start by reading the Wiki page and go from there. Why are you whining that no one will show you the evidence when it is easily available? It's bizarre.

    Like saying that Mohammed Atta bought a plane ticket. Well, the other passengers bought a plane ticket, didn't they? So they must have hijacked the plane, no?

    What? You make no sense at all. Obviously the plane ticket is a necessary but not sufficient piece of evidence. No one ever argued that it was the only piece of evidence.

    Well, that's totally consistent with an attempt to frame the person for the crime.

    It's totally consistent with my alien shape-shifter theory too. So what? It doesn't magically become evidence for YOUR theory.

    As I said before, it's just hearsay.

    It isn't hearsay. Witnesses are on the record. Recordings exist. It is backed up by documentation. Here's one example:

    http://www.911myths.com/index.php?title=Renee_May_calls

    Well, Mohammed Atta Sr says he got a phone call, so by your reasoning, he got a phone call, no?

    Um, no, dipshit. Atta's dad has a reason to lie–to protect his son's memory. What reason would a dozen family members have to lie? There are also records. And recordings of some of the calls.

    [MORE]

    Like now, your argument is that those Airfones "existed". Nothing more. They existed!

    Holy shit, you've reached a new level of stupid. The fact that Airfones existed means that your "doubt" that it is technically possible to make a call from an airplane is absolutely wrong. Hey, you don't want obvious pieces of evidence explained to you? Then don't make idiotic claims.

    Except apparently, the models of plane in question did not have the seat back phones at that point in time. This is all under dispute somewhat and is murky.

    It's only murky to people like you. The fact that you doubt the phone calls when there is so much clear evidence for them just illustrates what a huge fucking idiot you are.

    based on what DRG outlines, I think a reasonable person would have very great doubts that this whole story of the phone calls from the planes is really true.

    Amazing. You swallow that article without questioning it at all. I'm sure the first reports were of "cell phones"–since that's what people would be familiar with. The documentation is clear.

    All you have to understand is that the steel skeleton of each steel framed high-rise building is made up of 40-odd massive structural steel columns and the only way the thing can fall straight down vertically is for all the columns to fail at precisely the same instant.

    The NIST describes the process:

    The fires burned out of control during the afternoon, causing floor beams near column 79 to expand and push a key girder off its seat, triggering the floors to fail around column 79 on Floors 8 to 14. With a loss of lateral support across nine floors, column 79 buckled – pulling the east penthouse and nearby columns down with it. With the buckling of these critical columns, the collapse then progressed east-to-west across the core, ultimately overloading the perimeter support, which buckled between Floors 7 and 17, causing the remaining portion of the building above to fall downward as a single unit.

    Sounds plausible to me.

    No I know that your supersmart buddies have written gobs of text about how this is impossible and how all the families of the dead who got phone calls on 9/11 were lying liars who eat babies, but no one is listening. Do you understand that? You truthers will always be reviled in polite society. You think it's because everyone else is a lizard person, but it's you. • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    I never said this. Being skeptical of the official story is fine. But you aren't just skeptical. You are absolutely positive that the official story is false.
    Hold on, let me get this straight. What you object to is not that I disbelieve the story, but that I express certainty . But I thought you were expressing certainty that the official story was true, no? Or maybe you're not certain... could you clarify your position now? You're starting to sound really wishy washy.

    Well, if you're saying there is strong proof for the official story, then that's basically saying you're certain, no? Though I'm still trying to figure out what you think the proof is... it's these alleged phone calls? That's the strongest proof you've got?


    You are so sure that the official story is wrong that you heap abuse on people who haven't decided the same. For that level of certitude, you need some actual evidence, not just your feelings about things.
    Well, there is a mountain of evidence that the official story is untrue. The strongest single piece of physical evidence is that they claim that building 7 imploded in a perfectly symmetrical way from office fires basically. So NIST and FEMA are clearly claiming that something happened that is physically impossible. That is the strongest proof. And you have 2700 or so architects and engineers who have been willing to put their name on a petition calling for a new investigation on this basis -- that the official story is simply not physically possible.

    But there is also the issue of expert testimony from pilots who state that the feat of flying that these people allegedly pulled off is simply impossible for neophyte pilots. There is also testimony that the civilian Boeing airliners that allegedly flew into the towers cannot even fly at that speed at sea level. There are huge problems with the story.

    There is also the problem that all the testimony about Al Qaeda's planning of the attacks came from torturing one individual who was probably not even an Al Qaeda member. See this article: http://www.voltairenet.org/article177178.html

    Independent researchers have uncovered so many problems with the official story on so many levels that, I think one can say pretty objectively that there is basically zero possibility that the official story is truthful.

    The only way to maintain one's status as a shit eater, and to continue believing the official bullshit, is by being wilfully ignorant of just about every hard factual aspect of what is known!

    You can start by reading the Wiki page and go from there.
    What Wiki page? Oh, you mean Wikipedia? Well, I guess you don't realize that all that Wikipedia ever does with these sorts of events, whether it's JFK or 9/11 or Charlie Hebdo or whatever, is that the wikipedia page is just a synopsis of whatever the official story is.

    Earlier, you indignantly said that you know what the "beg the question" fallacy is, but obviously you don't. The Wikipedia page is just a synopsis of the official story. In any case, being a shit eater basically requires you to have a very weak grasp of what "question begging" is. Because that's what being a shit eater is. You ask a shit eater what the proof of whatever official story is and they just repeat the official story. Or they point you to a summary of the official story that is on wikipedia or somewhere else. It's always just self-referential question-begging.


    It isn't hearsay. Witnesses are on the record. Recordings exist.
    Dude, I can pick up a phone and call somebody and say that I'm in a plane and we're being hijacked. It's really just not very strong evidence. It's like saying that some guy put up a video saying he did it. I can put up a video on youtube saying I did it.
    It is backed up by documentation. Here's one example:

    http://www.911myths.com/index.php?title=Renee_May_calls

    Yeah, this rings a bell. A few years ago I looked through this stuff and it's really quite murky. There's a pretty detailed analysis of those phone calls from that flight here:

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/9-11-what-the-telephone-records-reveal-about-calls-from-aa-flight-77-did-barbara-olson-attempt-any-calls-at-all/26594

    It's all pretty much irrelevant really anyway, because it looks pretty clear that no passenger airline hit the pentagon anyway! There just isn't the debris that you would expect to see, for example. And the guy they say flew the plane, Hani Hanjour, lacked the skills to fly a single-engine Cessna. It was a missile or some sort of drone, it appears. And, of course, all that is a far bigger problem with that flight 77 than even these screwy phone records! I mean, if the flight didn't even take place, to talk about their being proof that somebody made a call from the flight in question...


    Um, no, dipshit. Atta's dad has a reason to lie–to protect his son's memory.
    Well, I concede that point. But the fact remains that Atta's dad may be telling the truth and he may be lying. And the same applies to the people who say they got a phone call from somebody on a plane. They could be telling the truth and they could be lying. And they could have plenty strong reasons to lie too!

    It's just not very strong evidence. If this is the strongest evidence that you have, I think the debate is basically over.


    It's only murky to people like you. The fact that you doubt the phone calls when there is so much clear evidence for them just illustrates what a huge fucking idiot you are.
    Well, the only reason you believe in the phone calls so firmly is because it supports what you want to believe. You don't believe in the Atta Sr. phone call on 9/12, because it doesn't support what you want to believe. Look at the article I linked. As evidence, it just is not very clear at all. Generally speaking, anybody can make a phone call and claim that they are in a plane getting hijacked.

    Anybody can say they got a phone call too. And we all know that there are people who will say anything for a few bucks. This is not hard evidence.


    The fact that Airfones existed means that your "doubt" that it is technically possible to make a call from an airplane is absolutely wrong.
    Uhh, no, because not all the planes had the Airfones on them, you see. At this point in time, for example, some flights have Wifi on them, but most don't. DRG made the point that the American Airlines 767's in question did not have Airfones installed on them until 2002 or something like that. But then I think somebody from the company claimed that they did, but I suspect that DRG was right the first time, but as I said, I'm simply not sure about that. I don't know if the planes in question had airfones on them or not. But this other problem, the expert testimony that a Boeing 767 can't even fly that fast at sea level anyway, this a much bigger problem that would trump the whole issue of whether there were Airfones or not!

    Again, in the case of Flight 77 that flew into the Pentagon, there is the bigger problem that it does not look like any civil jet airliner flew into the Pentagon in the first place, and that is a much bigger first order problem!

    But look, as I said, unfortunately, you are a shit eater and it's a waste of time to debate with shit eaters. I have done it enough that I can see what you do. You will automatically discount any evidence that doesn't support the official bullshit, and then the evidence that does support it, you'll claim that it's rock solid. So, for example, if the Atta Sr. phone call supported what you want to believe, you'd be saying: "Oh, there's a witness and blah blah." But since it doesn't support what you want to believe, then.

    Again, you're in a very bad position if the strongest evidence you have is these phone calls!

    So, do you have some piece of evidence that you think is stronger than the alleged phone calls or is that your answer to the question I posed. "The strongest evidence for the official is these phone calls."

    Oh, and even then, how that gets you to the bearded guy in Afghanistan.... Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  266. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 9:46 pm GMT • 100 Words @Jonathan Revusky
    I see you're having your fun with the shit eaters.

    are their any who are sincerely duped?

    I honestly don't know. At times, it seems like they're working from a basic playbook. Because they always try the same basic tricks. They almost always end up claiming that the proof of the government story is the government story. And then when you point out that it isn't, they then turn around and say that somehow the evidence is on you to prove something.

    And then if you further demand some real evidence, they'll usually just walk away. But then if they offer evidence, then it does get hilarious. They'll invariably say that there are these videos and Bin Laden admitted it. I could make a video saying I did it.

    This Boris shit eater claimed that Mohammed Atta buying a plane ticket was proof. He also claimed that there was video of Atta going through airport security. I looked for that and this is the only thing I could find:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ilffe-4Tuw

    I was trying to figure out how many degrees away this is from proving what needs to be proven.

    Is that even Atta? Or is it just some vaguely middle eastern looking guy. Which airport is this at? Okay, suppose it is him in the airport in question. How do we know he even got on the plane after that? He coulda just gone to starbucks, had a coffee and then left the airport. Well, okay, let's suppose he got on the plane. How do we know he hijacked it? And if he did hijack the plane, how do we know that this was planned by OBL off in Afghanistan?

    The number of leaps you have to make to think that this is proof of the official story is... When you think about how they presented this whole story almost immediately and then it was off to war. Based on this kind of thing, how could they have investigated so quickly and figured out that the origin of the attacks was in Afghanistan?

    The whole thing is such an obvious stitch-up when you look at it.

    This Boris shit eater claimed that Mohammed Atta buying a plane ticket was proof.

    This is an obvious fucking lie.

    You asked:"Anyway, what "videos" and "records" are you referring to specifically?"
    I said: "Video surveillance of Atta at the airport. His purchase of the tickets. Money trails. And etc. etc. etc."

    Nowhere did I say Atta buying a plane ticket was proof, or anything similar.

    Dishonest or stupid? My answer–both.

    (I see you have literal Nazi cheerleaders. Congrats.)

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    (I see you have literal Nazi cheerleaders. Congrats.)
    Hi, shit eater. I initially glossed over this last bit about my having "Nazi cheerleaders". I suppose you're calling Rurik here a "Nazi".

    Rurik was referring to this Ursula Haverbeck case where, last year, an 87-year-old German woman was sentenced to 10 months prison for asking questions about the Holocaust, which is a crime in Germany, France and at least another dozen countries. Rurik (like myself) sees this as a travesty, and thus, in your mental shit eater world, is therefore a "Nazi".

    It doesn't occur to you that anybody could support Ursula Haverbeck (and others like her) simply because they believe in free speech. If I say that it is utterly wrong to imprison somebody for expressing certain views, does that mean logically that I share those views? No, I might share those views or not. Or I might partially share them. The issue is the State terrorizing little old ladies in their eighties for simply asking questions.

    But, again, your approach to the question is typical of the shit eater. A shit eater always accepts the dominant framing of any question and never thinks for himself. Occasionally people do wise up. I myself did, but it is the exception, not the rule.

    Besides, I don't think I was ever as bad a case as you are. I don't think that I was ever saying stuff like: "Oh, we know that Mohammed Atta flew a plane into a building. He had a plane ticket! What more proof do you need?"

    You're such a hard case, it's probably incurable. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  267. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 11:08 pm GMT • 500 Words

    This Boris shit eater claimed that Mohammed Atta buying a plane ticket was proof.

    This is an obvious fucking lie.

    Look, there is a clear electronic record here of what was said. I never said that you were presenting Atta's purchase of a plane ticket as the sole proof, no. But you did offer it as an element of proof.

    You asked:"Anyway, what "videos" and "records" are you referring to specifically?"
    I said: "Video surveillance of Atta at the airport. His purchase of the tickets. Money trails. And etc. etc. etc."

    Well, you were offering this as an element of proof, among other things, but NONE of the things that you are as offering as proof really constitute a shred of evidence that Atta hijacked any plane. It just doesn't.

    Everything you are offering as proof is exactly as consistent with him being a patsy who was framed as being an actual hijacker.

    Now, as for accusing other people of dishonesty, you have said all these disparaging things about "conspiracy theorists" and it being a "circle jerk" among other pejorative labels. At this point, I have asked you a couple of times what 9/11 Truth literature you have actually read - David Ray Griffin? Tarpley? The material from AE911Truth? The fact that you never answer the question is basically an answer.

    Clearly, you have not read any of it! You talk disparagingly about these "crazy conspiracy theorists" but you don't even know what arguments any of them have made, because you have not read any of it! I can tell you haven't. And that is really just completely deplorable and dishonest.

    But I am kinda used to it. It's just typical shit eater behavior.

    Nowhere did I say Atta buying a plane ticket was proof, or anything similar.

    I requested proof and that was one of various elements of proof that you presented. Okay, I guess now you realize that was a brain fart and want to retract the claim that this is proof of any sort. Fine. Look, I'll throw you a bone. I'll even pretend that you never said that this was proof. Okay, fine, what do I care? You never said that.

    But I asked you: What is the strongest evidence available for the U.S. government story? I mean, specifically, within a few weeks of the 9/11 event, a whole theater of war was launched in Central Asia based on this whole tale that this was a terrorist plot that somehow originated in Afghanistan. Fifteen years later and there are still G.I.'s in Afghanistan and they're spending billions of dollars there every month probably. We really need to know what is the proof for this story that was the basis for all this! Despite your claims otherwise, this is a perfectly legitimate question. Can you shed any light on this?

    Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  268. Incitatus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 9, 2016 at 11:14 pm GMT • 300 Words @Jonathan Revusky
    9/11 was a complicated plot so asking for the "strongest evidnce" doesn't even make sense.
    TRANSLATION OF SHIT-EATER SPEAK: "I have no real evidence so I'm going to pretend that the other person is being unreasonable when he asks for some.
    We have video and records of guys in an organization that wanted to commit terrorism in America...
    Hey, shit eater, you ever heard of the "beg the question fallacy"? What that means is that you can't assume the thing that you are trying to prove in your proof.

    Anyway, what "videos" and "records" are you referring to specifically? It seems to me that you're just repeating the story as proof of the story, which is, of course, what shit eaters do when you ask them for proof of whatever bullshit.


    Yes, it would be possible to fake all of that (well, not the planes hitting the buildings). And yet no one has ever put forth any convincing evidence that it was. Hm.
    Oh, you no one has ever put forth any convincing evidence that any of this is fake. Look, at this point, there is a vast literature on this. And, yes, they have put forward VERY convincing evidence that basically ALL OF IT is fake! In particular, the alleged phone calls from the planes that detail the official narrative, these are very problematic, not technically possible even.

    In any case, a video of a plane hitting a building is not proof that some bearded guy in Afghanistan caused it to happen. By that reasoning, the Zapruder film of Kennedy being shot is proof that Oswald did it. It is not.

    Also, the video of a plane hitting a building is not proof that this is the cause of the building's subsequent implosion. Particularly problematic is the third building WTC 7, which was not hit by a plane, yet imploded in a perfectly symmetrical straight-down fashion that can only be achieved via controlled demolition.

    You say the evidence is the video of Bin Laden? Well, there's expert opinion that the videos are fake.
    Far more experts think it's real. I guess they are in on it?
    Which experts think that the Bin Laden "confession videos" are real? Can you name any of these "experts"?

    In any case, anybody can say anything on a video. It's not very strong proof. I can put up a video on youtube saying I did it.


    Well now you want to argue your stupid conspiracy theory. See, any evidence that is presented can be made into fit into some alternate theory. But those alternate theories never seem to have any evidence backing them up.
    The main alternative theory is that the buildings were prewired with explosives for a controlled demolition. As regards WTC7, there is no reasonable doubt of this really, because the building was not hit by a plane even. But, obviously, once you recognize that one building was pre-rigged for controlled demolition, it becomes fairly obvious that all three were.

    In any case, I did not actually propose any alternative story. I requested that you and whatever other shit eaters tell me what they think the strongest evidence for the official story is.
    There simply is not very much. It's stuff like somebody says they got a phone call from a plane in which the person told them that such-and-such had happened. Fine, I could say I got a phone call. There are people who will say anything for a few bucks.

    I could put up a video saying I did it.

    When you look at what you are presenting as evidence, it's very very weak. There's basically nothing there.

    Meanwhile, the physical evidence, that the collision of a single airliner with a building the size of WTC1 or WTC2 is simply not going to cause what then happened. A 90-ton aluminum tube crashing into 100,000 tons of structural steel, is simply not going to cause the latter to disintegrate.

    And why a third building that is not even hit by a plane should disintegrate as a result, this really only has one explanation, which is that the building in question was prerigged with explosives.

    And that is why there are over 2000 professional architects and engineers who have signed the Architechts and Engineers for 9/11 Truth petition calling for a new investigation.

    "The main alternative theory is that the buildings were prewired with explosives for a controlled demolition. As regards WTC7, there is no reasonable doubt of this really, because the building was not hit by a plane even. But, obviously, once you recognize that one building was pre-rigged for controlled demolition, it becomes fairly obvious that all three were."

    None dispute 9/11 was a conspiracy, but who was in it? Nineteen hijackers trained in Afghanistan and funded by Gulf money (the govt story)? The Bush administration? Some other govt? Why?

    You've obviously done a great deal of research and conclude (as you say) all WTC towers were intentionally demolished. Please share your theory. If it was a scripted event:

    • Why did WT 1 (the first tower hit) fall after WT 2? Did conspirators mix up demo timing?
    • Why did they bother to take down WT 7? Wouldn't the lack of aerial impact reveal demo and conspiracy?
    • How did conspirators mine 240 exterior columns on each office floor of WT 1 & 2 (±50,000 locations) without detection? Central core columns? Freestanding columns in public view at grade? How was it concealed from building tenants, management, maintenance staff, visitors, CoNY building inspectors, supply services, etc? And the same in WTC 7?
    • Architects and engineers from Minoru Yamasaki & Associates, Emery Roth & Sons, Worthington Skilling Helle & Jackson, Joseph R. Loring & Assoc, Jaros Blum & Bolles, and the numerous other firms responsible for the WTC don't appear to be part of ae911truth. Are they part of the conspiracy? Are WTC building contractors and subcontractors part of the conspiracy? Building tenants?
    • How could the same administration that ignored 9/11 warnings, bungled Katrina and screwed-up Iraq 2003 pull off such a complex, faultless conspiracy? Why have no insiders spilled the tale?

    I'm on the fence. I'd really like to know.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    I'm on the fence. I'd really like to know.
    you can start here

    http://www.europhysicsnews.org/articles/epn/pdf/2016/04/epn2016-47-4.pdf

    go to the featured article on page 21

    only the people that pulled this thing off know the exact whys and hows, and it certainly wasn't faultless, or we all wouldn't know by now that it was an obvious inside job

    what we are certain of is that the official story is a pack of lies, and that building seven didn't implode into its basement because of office fires.

    from there, you go down the rabbit hole

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1VtozvvG4c Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  269. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 12:13 am GMT • 100 Words

    Look, there is a clear electronic record here of what was said. I never said that you were presenting Atta's purchase of a plane ticket as the sole proof, no. But you did offer it as an element of proof.

    It's a piece of evidence. One of many. You keep asking "What's the strongest evidence?" but that is a stupid question. It's all strong. The mastermind admitting it on tape isn't good enough by itself, but combined with the money trail, the movements of the hijackers, the witnesses and everything else the case is pretty clear.

    Yes, they could have been patsies. Or aliens. When evidence that they are comes up, let me know.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    I never said that you were presenting Atta's purchase of a plane ticket as the sole proof, no. But you did offer it as an element of proof.
    It's a piece of evidence.
    Oh, I see, here we are, the Monty Python argument shop skit approach to a discussion now. "No, that's not evidence." "It is." "It's not."

    You always reach this point when you debate with a shit eater. They just start adamantly repeating whatever bullshit. It's like you have to tell them for the umpteenth time: " No, this turd you have just regurgitated yet again is not chocolate mousse. "

    And no, the "purchase of a plane ticket" is not proof of anything!

    Basically, you're saying that there is some paper record that a plane ticket was purchased in Atta's name. Yeah, okay, so what? This is not even proof that Atta himself purchased the ticket. I could purchase a plane ticket in somebody's name without them even knowing about it. That a person possesses a valid ticket, that a ticket was issued in somebody's name, that's not proof that they ever got on the plane. And even then, that somebody was on the plane is not proof that he hijacked it.

    The purchase of the ticket is something that is so many degrees removed from being hard evidence of anything, it is hard to see how somebody could try to make that claim. But this really brings us to the core of the shit eater mentality.

    You see, the reason that you present this kind of thing as evidence is that you've never really thought about this question -- I mean the question what would constitute evidence. You never thought about it because you see no need. "It's the official story, I heard it on the TeeVee, therefore it's true."

    That is how a shit eater reasons.

    So it's a waste of time to try to have a "debate" with a shit eater because the shit eater does not even understand the basic parameters of a debate, what would constitute evidence and so forth.

    You keep asking "What's the strongest evidence?" but that is a stupid question.
    Well, a shit eater basically believes that asking for the evidence for any official story is stupid because... well, it's the official story, therefore it's true. That's how a shit eater thinks. "Hey, this is the official bullshit. Yum yum."

    Of course, if you're not a shit eater, then if they tell you that somebody committed whatever crime, the natural question is what is the strongest evidence available. And you have to think about whether what they are presenting to you as "evidence" really is, or how strong it is.


    The mastermind admitting it on tape isn't good enough by itself, but combined with the money trail, the movements of the hijackers, the witnesses and everything else the case is pretty clear.
    Well, this is all beg the question stuff. The shit eater's "proof" of the story invariably is based on assuming the story. "The mastermind, the hijackers..." You assume that which needs to be demonstrated.

    Most of this Al Qaeda narrative was established by torturing people, in particular, one poor wretch by the name of Abu Zubaydah, in Guantanamo bay. I referenced one article that is, I think, a must-read (if you really are interested in the topic, that is) here:

    http://www.voltairenet.org/article177178.html

    Now, regarding for example, the record of the "movements" of an alleged hijacker, like Atta, I looked for the airport surveillance video you mentioned and it's just a joke:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F249r7TaBo

    That's a minute and a half and the narrator analyzes what is being presented as "proof" here. It's just a total joke.

    Yes, they could have been patsies. Or aliens. When evidence that they are comes up, let me know.
    Well, what would be the point? You would just continue to believe the official story anyway. Face it, dude, you're a shit eater. A clinical case.

    The evidence that these people were patsies is really pretty glaring. Take the case of Hani Hanjour, who supposedly flew some sort of 270 degree sloping descent maneuver to hit the Pentagon, some feat of flying that professional pilots have said they could not execute. This guy Hani was up in some single-engine plane with a flight instructor once and the guy was so terrible (probably mostly because he didn't really know English and didn't understand anything the instructor was saying) that they got back on the ground and the instructor said never again!

    There is a pattern here where anybody who really had any contact with any of these people saw that they were bumbling incompetents who couldn't carry out an operation like this. When you do minimal research on this and other similar events, the fact that the people they are pinning this on are just patsies -- this is just glaring, it's right in your face. Lee Harvey Oswald back when, or more recently, these Arab ethnics in France that they say did these various things.... the fact that these people are patsies is just right in front of one's nose when you study these events even minimally.

    But when you talk with a shit eater, it's just like: "Oh, but that's the official story. It must be true! You're a conspiracy theorist, nya nya!"

    "Of course Atta flew a plane into a building. He had a ticket, dammit!!! What more proof do you need???!!!!""

    This is where you always end up when you debate a shit eater. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  270. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 12:19 am GMT • 1,400 Words @Boris
    So, okay then you start waving your hands saying that the official story is so self-evidently correct that anybody who questions it is just obviously crazy.
    I never said this. Being skeptical of the official story is fine. But you aren't just skeptical. You are absolutely positive that the official story is false. You are so sure that the official story is wrong that you heap abuse on people who haven't decided the same. For that level of certitude, you need some actual evidence, not just your feelings about things.
    So, obviously, I ask you, like I ask any of the shit eaters, what is the evidence.
    Are you an actual child? You can start by reading the Wiki page and go from there. Why are you whining that no one will show you the evidence when it is easily available? It's bizarre.
    Like saying that Mohammed Atta bought a plane ticket. Well, the other passengers bought a plane ticket, didn't they? So they must have hijacked the plane, no?
    What? You make no sense at all. Obviously the plane ticket is a necessary but not sufficient piece of evidence. No one ever argued that it was the only piece of evidence.
    Well, that's totally consistent with an attempt to frame the person for the crime.
    It's totally consistent with my alien shape-shifter theory too. So what? It doesn't magically become evidence for YOUR theory.
    As I said before, it's just hearsay.
    It isn't hearsay. Witnesses are on the record. Recordings exist. It is backed up by documentation. Here's one example:

    http://www.911myths.com/index.php?title=Renee_May_calls

    Well, Mohammed Atta Sr says he got a phone call, so by your reasoning, he got a phone call, no?
    Um, no, dipshit. Atta's dad has a reason to lie--to protect his son's memory. What reason would a dozen family members have to lie? There are also records. And recordings of some of the calls.
    Like now, your argument is that those Airfones "existed". Nothing more. They existed!
    Holy shit, you've reached a new level of stupid. The fact that Airfones existed means that your "doubt" that it is technically possible to make a call from an airplane is absolutely wrong. Hey, you don't want obvious pieces of evidence explained to you? Then don't make idiotic claims.
    Except apparently, the models of plane in question did not have the seat back phones at that point in time. This is all under dispute somewhat and is murky.
    It's only murky to people like you. The fact that you doubt the phone calls when there is so much clear evidence for them just illustrates what a huge fucking idiot you are.
    based on what DRG outlines, I think a reasonable person would have very great doubts that this whole story of the phone calls from the planes is really true.
    Amazing. You swallow that article without questioning it at all. I'm sure the first reports were of "cell phones"--since that's what people would be familiar with. The documentation is clear.
    All you have to understand is that the steel skeleton of each steel framed high-rise building is made up of 40-odd massive structural steel columns and the only way the thing can fall straight down vertically is for all the columns to fail at precisely the same instant.
    The NIST describes the process:
    The fires burned out of control during the afternoon, causing floor beams near column 79 to expand and push a key girder off its seat, triggering the floors to fail around column 79 on Floors 8 to 14. With a loss of lateral support across nine floors, column 79 buckled – pulling the east penthouse and nearby columns down with it. With the buckling of these critical columns, the collapse then progressed east-to-west across the core, ultimately overloading the perimeter support, which buckled between Floors 7 and 17, causing the remaining portion of the building above to fall downward as a single unit.
    Sounds plausible to me.

    No I know that your supersmart buddies have written gobs of text about how this is impossible and how all the families of the dead who got phone calls on 9/11 were lying liars who eat babies, but no one is listening. Do you understand that? You truthers will always be reviled in polite society. You think it's because everyone else is a lizard person, but it's you.

    I never said this. Being skeptical of the official story is fine. But you aren't just skeptical. You are absolutely positive that the official story is false.

    Hold on, let me get this straight. What you object to is not that I disbelieve the story, but that I express certainty . But I thought you were expressing certainty that the official story was true, no? Or maybe you're not certain could you clarify your position now? You're starting to sound really wishy washy.

    Well, if you're saying there is strong proof for the official story, then that's basically saying you're certain, no? Though I'm still trying to figure out what you think the proof is it's these alleged phone calls? That's the strongest proof you've got?

    You are so sure that the official story is wrong that you heap abuse on people who haven't decided the same. For that level of certitude, you need some actual evidence, not just your feelings about things.

    Well, there is a mountain of evidence that the official story is untrue. The strongest single piece of physical evidence is that they claim that building 7 imploded in a perfectly symmetrical way from office fires basically. So NIST and FEMA are clearly claiming that something happened that is physically impossible. That is the strongest proof. And you have 2700 or so architects and engineers who have been willing to put their name on a petition calling for a new investigation on this basis - that the official story is simply not physically possible.

    But there is also the issue of expert testimony from pilots who state that the feat of flying that these people allegedly pulled off is simply impossible for neophyte pilots. There is also testimony that the civilian Boeing airliners that allegedly flew into the towers cannot even fly at that speed at sea level. There are huge problems with the story.

    There is also the problem that all the testimony about Al Qaeda's planning of the attacks came from torturing one individual who was probably not even an Al Qaeda member. See this article: http://www.voltairenet.org/article177178.html

    Independent researchers have uncovered so many problems with the official story on so many levels that, I think one can say pretty objectively that there is basically zero possibility that the official story is truthful.

    The only way to maintain one's status as a shit eater, and to continue believing the official bullshit, is by being wilfully ignorant of just about every hard factual aspect of what is known!

    You can start by reading the Wiki page and go from there.

    What Wiki page? Oh, you mean Wikipedia? Well, I guess you don't realize that all that Wikipedia ever does with these sorts of events, whether it's JFK or 9/11 or Charlie Hebdo or whatever, is that the wikipedia page is just a synopsis of whatever the official story is.

    Earlier, you indignantly said that you know what the "beg the question" fallacy is, but obviously you don't. The Wikipedia page is just a synopsis of the official story. In any case, being a shit eater basically requires you to have a very weak grasp of what "question begging" is. Because that's what being a shit eater is. You ask a shit eater what the proof of whatever official story is and they just repeat the official story. Or they point you to a summary of the official story that is on wikipedia or somewhere else. It's always just self-referential question-begging.

    [MORE]

    It isn't hearsay. Witnesses are on the record. Recordings exist.

    Dude, I can pick up a phone and call somebody and say that I'm in a plane and we're being hijacked. It's really just not very strong evidence. It's like saying that some guy put up a video saying he did it. I can put up a video on youtube saying I did it.

    It is backed up by documentation. Here's one example:

    http://www.911myths.com/index.php?title=Renee_May_calls

    Yeah, this rings a bell. A few years ago I looked through this stuff and it's really quite murky. There's a pretty detailed analysis of those phone calls from that flight here:

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/9-11-what-the-telephone-records-reveal-about-calls-from-aa-flight-77-did-barbara-olson-attempt-any-calls-at-all/26594

    It's all pretty much irrelevant really anyway, because it looks pretty clear that no passenger airline hit the pentagon anyway! There just isn't the debris that you would expect to see, for example. And the guy they say flew the plane, Hani Hanjour, lacked the skills to fly a single-engine Cessna. It was a missile or some sort of drone, it appears. And, of course, all that is a far bigger problem with that flight 77 than even these screwy phone records! I mean, if the flight didn't even take place, to talk about their being proof that somebody made a call from the flight in question

    Um, no, dipshit. Atta's dad has a reason to lie–to protect his son's memory.

    Well, I concede that point. But the fact remains that Atta's dad may be telling the truth and he may be lying. And the same applies to the people who say they got a phone call from somebody on a plane. They could be telling the truth and they could be lying. And they could have plenty strong reasons to lie too!

    It's just not very strong evidence. If this is the strongest evidence that you have, I think the debate is basically over.

    It's only murky to people like you. The fact that you doubt the phone calls when there is so much clear evidence for them just illustrates what a huge fucking idiot you are.

    Well, the only reason you believe in the phone calls so firmly is because it supports what you want to believe. You don't believe in the Atta Sr. phone call on 9/12, because it doesn't support what you want to believe. Look at the article I linked. As evidence, it just is not very clear at all. Generally speaking, anybody can make a phone call and claim that they are in a plane getting hijacked.

    Anybody can say they got a phone call too. And we all know that there are people who will say anything for a few bucks. This is not hard evidence.

    The fact that Airfones existed means that your "doubt" that it is technically possible to make a call from an airplane is absolutely wrong.

    Uhh, no, because not all the planes had the Airfones on them, you see. At this point in time, for example, some flights have Wifi on them, but most don't. DRG made the point that the American Airlines 767′s in question did not have Airfones installed on them until 2002 or something like that. But then I think somebody from the company claimed that they did, but I suspect that DRG was right the first time, but as I said, I'm simply not sure about that. I don't know if the planes in question had airfones on them or not. But this other problem, the expert testimony that a Boeing 767 can't even fly that fast at sea level anyway, this a much bigger problem that would trump the whole issue of whether there were Airfones or not!

    Again, in the case of Flight 77 that flew into the Pentagon, there is the bigger problem that it does not look like any civil jet airliner flew into the Pentagon in the first place, and that is a much bigger first order problem!

    But look, as I said, unfortunately, you are a shit eater and it's a waste of time to debate with shit eaters. I have done it enough that I can see what you do. You will automatically discount any evidence that doesn't support the official bullshit, and then the evidence that does support it, you'll claim that it's rock solid. So, for example, if the Atta Sr. phone call supported what you want to believe, you'd be saying: "Oh, there's a witness and blah blah." But since it doesn't support what you want to believe, then.

    Again, you're in a very bad position if the strongest evidence you have is these phone calls!

    So, do you have some piece of evidence that you think is stronger than the alleged phone calls or is that your answer to the question I posed. "The strongest evidence for the official is these phone calls."

    Oh, and even then, how that gets you to the bearded guy in Afghanistan . • Replies: @Incitatus "...you have 2700 or so architects and engineers who have been willing to put their name on a petition calling for a new investigation on this basis - that the official story is simply not physically possible."

    Great point! 2700! Something must be fishy.

    But how many licensed architects and engineers are there in the US? Turns out there's 105,042 + 822,575 = 927,617 (source: AIA & NCEES). 2,700 represents 0.29% of the total number of US architects and engineers. That means 99.71% haven't called for a new investigation.

    But wait! Turns out Mr. Gage's petition is signed not only by licensed US architects and engineers, but also by the 'degreed' (without licenses they're not legally able to call themselves architects or engineers). It gets even better - many of the signatories are foreign (UK. Sri Lanka, Canada, Bolivia, Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands, Colombia, etc). Nothing wrong with that, of course. The more, the merrier

    But the base increases yet again. Linkedin estimates 3,600,000 licensed architects on earth. If the proportion of architects to engineers is similar to the US ratio 28,191,295 engineers exist, bringing the combined total to 31,791,295 architects and engineers worldwide.

    2,700 is 0.0085% of 31,791,295. In other words, 99.9915% of worldwide architects and engineers haven't called for a new investigation. Are they part of a conspiracy?

    ae911truth? Maybe Richard Gage enjoys having a nice tax-exempt slush fund for travel and lecture fees. Maybe he enjoys gadfly celebrity his practice never delivered. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  271. Hugh Steadman says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 12:39 am GMT • 100 Words

    This article which I read this morning was perfectly in accord with the blog I posted on http://www.khakispecs.com this morning. http://www.khakispecs.com/?p=2593

    I have a friend and business partner in NZ, Harmon Wilfred, who is stateless as a result of blowing the whistle on the Clintons. His information, available in this blog, could blow the Clinton Foundation out of the water – but no one dare touch such a true conspiracy theory.

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  272. Rurik says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 12:58 am GMT • 100 Words @Incitatus "The main alternative theory is that the buildings were prewired with explosives for a controlled demolition. As regards WTC7, there is no reasonable doubt of this really, because the building was not hit by a plane even. But, obviously, once you recognize that one building was pre-rigged for controlled demolition, it becomes fairly obvious that all three were."

    None dispute 9/11 was a conspiracy, but who was in it? Nineteen hijackers trained in Afghanistan and funded by Gulf money (the govt story)? The Bush administration? Some other govt? Why?

    You've obviously done a great deal of research and conclude (as you say) all WTC towers were intentionally demolished. Please share your theory. If it was a scripted event:

    • Why did WT 1 (the first tower hit) fall after WT 2? Did conspirators mix up demo timing?
    • Why did they bother to take down WT 7? Wouldn't the lack of aerial impact reveal demo and conspiracy?
    • How did conspirators mine 240 exterior columns on each office floor of WT 1 & 2 (±50,000 locations) without detection? Central core columns? Freestanding columns in public view at grade? How was it concealed from building tenants, management, maintenance staff, visitors, CoNY building inspectors, supply services, etc? And the same in WTC 7?
    • Architects and engineers from Minoru Yamasaki & Associates, Emery Roth & Sons, Worthington Skilling Helle & Jackson, Joseph R. Loring & Assoc, Jaros Blum & Bolles, and the numerous other firms responsible for the WTC don't appear to be part of ae911truth. Are they part of the conspiracy? Are WTC building contractors and subcontractors part of the conspiracy? Building tenants?
    • How could the same administration that ignored 9/11 warnings, bungled Katrina and screwed-up Iraq 2003 pull off such a complex, faultless conspiracy? Why have no insiders spilled the tale?

    I'm on the fence. I'd really like to know.

    I'm on the fence. I'd really like to know.

    you can start here

    http://www.europhysicsnews.org/articles/epn/pdf/2016/04/epn2016-47-4.pdf

    go to the featured article on page 21

    only the people that pulled this thing off know the exact whys and hows, and it certainly wasn't faultless, or we all wouldn't know by now that it was an obvious inside job

    what we are certain of is that the official story is a pack of lies, and that building seven didn't implode into its basement because of office fires.

    from there, you go down the rabbit hole

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1VtozvvG4c

    • Replies: @Incitatus I've read quite a few studies over the years, and have seen several films (ae911truth etc). Skeptical by nature, I ask specific questions. Most who doubt the NIST scenario seem unable to venture any guess on responsible parties, motives or exact means. 'Controlled demolition' is all very well, but how would one go about it without betraying the conspiracy?

    Two observations. The government story, however improbable, is explained in detail. One need not believe it, but at least there's meat on the bones. The none-of-the-above crowd, however, coughs up vague notions in lieu of any real motives, means, and methodology. Usually they offer YouTube, ae911truth, and similar sites as the answer. Which is to say, they have no real answers at all. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  273. Sam Shama says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 1:16 am GMT • 200 Words

    Boris and Incitatus,
    I want you to know that Revusky loves you both, owing to your kind extension to him, the opportunity to partake of his daily bread – 9/11 "truth". Poor chap's been through a bit of a lean period lately; breadwise that is.

    I'd suggest a little caution nevertheless . You see, he repeatedly calls his interlocutors, "shit-eaters", a term he intends entirely as a fraternal invitation to a select club, of which, the dinner menu is limited, noxious and, -not to put too fine a point on it – unnatural. But of course he is entitled to his preferences, this being the day and age of inclusiveness and all that, I say to each his own.

    Btw he adores infinite reduction loops, and hopes one day to set foot on the moon. In the meantime do remind him – the dosage is twice daily, ideally on an empty stomach.

    • Replies: @Incitatus Sam,

    Enjoyed your advice, which I take to heart.

    I too noted JR's fixation with coprophagia. I put it down to ecological pragmatism on his part. He produces such immense quantities of the product, he suggestively hopes others will consume it. He must be in constant danger of exploding.

    Honoré de Balzac had a great observation on conspracists:

    "[they] passed sovereign judgment on society the more readily because of the inferiority of their own status, for unappreciated men make up for their lowly position by the disdainful eye they cast upon the world." Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  274. WowJustWow says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 2:20 am GMT • 100 Words @Miro23 The British and Americans have been the victims of conspiracies (False Flag operations) for years.

    For example:

    The Irgun bombing of the King David Hotel (headquarters of the British Mandate Government of Palestine) in which Zionist activists dressed as Arabs placed milk churns filled with explosives against the main columns of the building killing 91 people and injuring 44. Israeli prime Minister Netanyahu, attended a celebration to commemorate the event.

    Operation Susannah (Lavon Affair) where Israeli operatives impersonating Arabs bombed British and American cinemas, libraries and educational centers in Egypt to destabilize the country and keep British troops committed to the Middle East.

    Or June 8, 1967, the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty with unmarked aircraft and torpedo boats. 34 men were killed and 171 wounded, with the attack in international waters following over nine hours of close surveillance. When the ship failed to sink, the Israeli government concocted an elaborate story to cover the crime. Original plan to blame the sinking with all lives lost on the Egyptians and draw the US into the war.

    Or Israelis and U.S. Zionists appearing all over the most recent WTC 9/11 "Operation" with Israelis once again impersonating Arabs in a historic deception/terror action of a type that seems to carry a lot of kudos with old Israeli ex-terrorist Likudniks. Israeli agents were sent to film the historic day (as they later admitted on Israeli TV), with the celebrations including photos of themselves with a background of the burning towers where thousands of Americans were being incinerated.

    Iraq was destroyed as a result of 9/11 but unfortunately for the conspirators, the momentum wasn't sufficient for a general war including Iran. Also the general war would have included the nuclear angle and justified the activation of a neo-con led Emergency Regime (dictatorship) in the US enforced with the newly printed Patriot Act and Homeland Security troops - or maybe that's just another Conspiracy Theory?

    Come on. If you're going to false-flag 9/11, you hijack one plane. Hijacking four planes is exactly the kind of plan that has too many moving parts to be sensible. And it didn't go according to plan! Only three out of four planes hit their targets. If the hijackers on United 93 had been fully subdued and found to be Israelis in funny clothes, the other three planes would have been for nothing.

    I can see the USS Liberty one though. I've never heard a plausible explanation for it.

    • Replies: @Erebus
    If you're going to false-flag 9/11, you hijack one plane. Hijacking four planes is exactly the kind of plan that has too many moving parts to be sensible.
    Type "no planes 9/11" into youtube for hints on how hijacking no planes at all is even more sensible. Some of the videos make better cases than others, but a half dozen or so appear conclusive. So sensible is the no planes theory, that one wonders why the plotters wouldn't have thought of it.
    In any case, only one plane ever made it to prime time and much of the footage exhibits disturbing anomalies readily explained by CGI. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  275. Hippopotamusdrome says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 3:36 am GMT @biz No it couldn't. If so, it would be orbiting the moon and its location, not to mention the measured distance to it, would be changing constantly.

    It would be a probe that would land on the surface, like the russian Luna.

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  276. utu says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 3:42 am GMT

    NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE THAT ANY 9/11 'HIJACKERS' BOARDED ANY PLANES
    https://truthandshadows.wordpress.com/2015/03/19/hijackers-did-not-board-planes/

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  277. Zzz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 4:04 am GMT • 100 Words @Wizard of Oz Are you presuming that it should be easy to travel over the entire moon surface and easily arrive at a precisely defined point - and that where the flags are is such a point?

    Actually it is. Relatively easy. Time and money consuming but not hard, at least compare to put robot on mars. And you not need to travel over entire surface, you can just land robot at about same place. But such experiment is pointless because have little science value and any evidence from it can be called fake(or be faked)

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  278. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 7:03 am GMT • 900 Words @Boris
    Look, there is a clear electronic record here of what was said. I never said that you were presenting Atta's purchase of a plane ticket as the sole proof, no. But you did offer it as an element of proof.
    It's a piece of evidence. One of many. You keep asking "What's the strongest evidence?" but that is a stupid question. It's all strong. The mastermind admitting it on tape isn't good enough by itself, but combined with the money trail, the movements of the hijackers, the witnesses and everything else the case is pretty clear.

    Yes, they could have been patsies. Or aliens. When evidence that they are comes up, let me know.

    I never said that you were presenting Atta's purchase of a plane ticket as the sole proof, no. But you did offer it as an element of proof.

    It's a piece of evidence.

    Oh, I see, here we are, the Monty Python argument shop skit approach to a discussion now. "No, that's not evidence." "It is." "It's not."

    You always reach this point when you debate with a shit eater. They just start adamantly repeating whatever bullshit. It's like you have to tell them for the umpteenth time: " No, this turd you have just regurgitated yet again is not chocolate mousse. "

    And no, the "purchase of a plane ticket" is not proof of anything!

    Basically, you're saying that there is some paper record that a plane ticket was purchased in Atta's name. Yeah, okay, so what? This is not even proof that Atta himself purchased the ticket. I could purchase a plane ticket in somebody's name without them even knowing about it. That a person possesses a valid ticket, that a ticket was issued in somebody's name, that's not proof that they ever got on the plane. And even then, that somebody was on the plane is not proof that he hijacked it.

    The purchase of the ticket is something that is so many degrees removed from being hard evidence of anything, it is hard to see how somebody could try to make that claim. But this really brings us to the core of the shit eater mentality.

    You see, the reason that you present this kind of thing as evidence is that you've never really thought about this question - I mean the question what would constitute evidence. You never thought about it because you see no need. "It's the official story, I heard it on the TeeVee, therefore it's true."

    That is how a shit eater reasons.

    So it's a waste of time to try to have a "debate" with a shit eater because the shit eater does not even understand the basic parameters of a debate, what would constitute evidence and so forth.

    You keep asking "What's the strongest evidence?" but that is a stupid question.

    Well, a shit eater basically believes that asking for the evidence for any official story is stupid because well, it's the official story, therefore it's true. That's how a shit eater thinks. "Hey, this is the official bullshit. Yum yum."

    Of course, if you're not a shit eater, then if they tell you that somebody committed whatever crime, the natural question is what is the strongest evidence available. And you have to think about whether what they are presenting to you as "evidence" really is, or how strong it is.

    The mastermind admitting it on tape isn't good enough by itself, but combined with the money trail, the movements of the hijackers, the witnesses and everything else the case is pretty clear.

    Well, this is all beg the question stuff. The shit eater's "proof" of the story invariably is based on assuming the story. "The mastermind, the hijackers " You assume that which needs to be demonstrated.

    Most of this Al Qaeda narrative was established by torturing people, in particular, one poor wretch by the name of Abu Zubaydah, in Guantanamo bay. I referenced one article that is, I think, a must-read (if you really are interested in the topic, that is) here:

    http://www.voltairenet.org/article177178.html

    Now, regarding for example, the record of the "movements" of an alleged hijacker, like Atta, I looked for the airport surveillance video you mentioned and it's just a joke:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F249r7TaBo

    That's a minute and a half and the narrator analyzes what is being presented as "proof" here. It's just a total joke.

    Yes, they could have been patsies. Or aliens. When evidence that they are comes up, let me know.

    Well, what would be the point? You would just continue to believe the official story anyway. Face it, dude, you're a shit eater. A clinical case.

    The evidence that these people were patsies is really pretty glaring. Take the case of Hani Hanjour, who supposedly flew some sort of 270 degree sloping descent maneuver to hit the Pentagon, some feat of flying that professional pilots have said they could not execute. This guy Hani was up in some single-engine plane with a flight instructor once and the guy was so terrible (probably mostly because he didn't really know English and didn't understand anything the instructor was saying) that they got back on the ground and the instructor said never again!

    There is a pattern here where anybody who really had any contact with any of these people saw that they were bumbling incompetents who couldn't carry out an operation like this. When you do minimal research on this and other similar events, the fact that the people they are pinning this on are just patsies - this is just glaring, it's right in your face. Lee Harvey Oswald back when, or more recently, these Arab ethnics in France that they say did these various things . the fact that these people are patsies is just right in front of one's nose when you study these events even minimally.

    But when you talk with a shit eater, it's just like: "Oh, but that's the official story. It must be true! You're a conspiracy theorist, nya nya!"

    "Of course Atta flew a plane into a building. He had a ticket, dammit!!! What more proof do you need???!!!!""

    This is where you always end up when you debate a shit eater.

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  279. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 7:33 am GMT • 300 Words @Boris
    This Boris shit eater claimed that Mohammed Atta buying a plane ticket was proof.
    This is an obvious fucking lie.

    You asked:"Anyway, what "videos" and "records" are you referring to specifically?"
    I said: "Video surveillance of Atta at the airport. His purchase of the tickets. Money trails. And etc. etc. etc."

    Nowhere did I say Atta buying a plane ticket was proof, or anything similar.

    Dishonest or stupid? My answer--both.

    (I see you have literal Nazi cheerleaders. Congrats.)

    (I see you have literal Nazi cheerleaders. Congrats.)

    Hi, shit eater. I initially glossed over this last bit about my having "Nazi cheerleaders". I suppose you're calling Rurik here a "Nazi".

    Rurik was referring to this Ursula Haverbeck case where, last year, an 87-year-old German woman was sentenced to 10 months prison for asking questions about the Holocaust, which is a crime in Germany, France and at least another dozen countries. Rurik (like myself) sees this as a travesty, and thus, in your mental shit eater world, is therefore a "Nazi".

    It doesn't occur to you that anybody could support Ursula Haverbeck (and others like her) simply because they believe in free speech. If I say that it is utterly wrong to imprison somebody for expressing certain views, does that mean logically that I share those views? No, I might share those views or not. Or I might partially share them. The issue is the State terrorizing little old ladies in their eighties for simply asking questions.

    But, again, your approach to the question is typical of the shit eater. A shit eater always accepts the dominant framing of any question and never thinks for himself. Occasionally people do wise up. I myself did, but it is the exception, not the rule.

    Besides, I don't think I was ever as bad a case as you are. I don't think that I was ever saying stuff like: "Oh, we know that Mohammed Atta flew a plane into a building. He had a plane ticket! What more proof do you need?"

    You're such a hard case, it's probably incurable.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    Ursula Haverbeck ... ..., an 87-year-old German woman was sentenced to 10 months prison for asking questions about the Holocaust, which is a crime in Germany, ... .... Rurik (like myself) sees this as a travesty,
    That's exactly true JR, I consider something like that an obvious travesty at the very least, and an abomination of human reason and compassion and simple decency. She may be wrong, but by what right do they have to tell her she's not allowed to ask questions? Fuck that shit. And fuck the people who put her in prison. What are they so afraid of, eh? Is what I'd like to know.
    He had a plane ticket! What more proof do you need?"
    ahh, but JR, you're forgetting the other, shocking proof that this was Osama and his 19 henchmen.. the passport!

    the magical passport that flew out of the terrorist's pocket or carry on, and through the carnage of the plane's explosion and through the fireball and all that glass and concrete and then gently glided down t0 the New York street, where it was quickly found before the dust fell on it and handed to the FBI and then rushed to the MSM, where upon they all let us all know that it had been found! so that we could all know who was responsible for this heinous attack!

    I suppose Boris forgot about that unassailable evidence and proof or he would have surely mentioned it by now. And that's not all! They found Korans in the terrorist's rental car! Did you know that?

    and they caught some of the terrorists actually filming the first plane hitting the tower, and these slimy bastards were all happy and celebrating the horrors, while the people who saw them were aghast, at how anyone could be happy at all that death of innocent people.

    err, um, wait, no, those weren't the terrorists come to think of it. Never mind that last part.

    But the passport!!

    that was undeniable physical evidence! Proof!

    and then there was the witness, right there on the spot, to explain how the buildings collapsed

    "mostly due to structural failure, because the fire was just too intense"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5y8PtfKA14

    all these things were explained to us all right away. They knew it was Bin Laden within hours. And they knew right away how the buildings fell, and had planted that "knowledge" into us all, with videos like the Harley guy, who planted that seed in our collective conscieness. for how hundreds of thousands of tons of steel and concrete was going to >>poof<< into so much powder..

    "mostly due to structural failure, because the fire was just too intense" , @Incitatus Of course we all grieve for Ursula. Ten months in prison. Pity. But look on the bright side. Perhaps she'll be able to knit a few flags and armbands? Sweaters for the Eastern Front? Thermal underpants for the SS? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  280. Erebus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 7:58 am GMT • 100 Words @WowJustWow Come on. If you're going to false-flag 9/11, you hijack one plane. Hijacking four planes is exactly the kind of plan that has too many moving parts to be sensible. And it didn't go according to plan! Only three out of four planes hit their targets. If the hijackers on United 93 had been fully subdued and found to be Israelis in funny clothes, the other three planes would have been for nothing.

    I can see the USS Liberty one though. I've never heard a plausible explanation for it.

    If you're going to false-flag 9/11, you hijack one plane. Hijacking four planes is exactly the kind of plan that has too many moving parts to be sensible.

    Type "no planes 9/11″ into youtube for hints on how hijacking no planes at all is even more sensible. Some of the videos make better cases than others, but a half dozen or so appear conclusive. So sensible is the no planes theory, that one wonders why the plotters wouldn't have thought of it.
    In any case, only one plane ever made it to prime time and much of the footage exhibits disturbing anomalies readily explained by CGI.

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  281. Erebus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 9:37 am GMT • 600 Words

    Not to answer for The Great Revusky, I'll offer some suggestions of my own:

    • Why did WT 1 (the first tower hit) fall after WT 2? Did conspirators mix up demo timing?

    - The 2nd tower hit failed to ignite properly. The fires were clearly in danger of going out entirely on their own soon after being "hit". It either got brought down immediately, or would stand as a testament to what happened.
    - They may have screwed up the timing, but I doubt it. To me it looks like they made a decision on the fly.

    • Why did they bother to take down WT 7? Wouldn't the lack of aerial impact reveal demo and conspiracy?

    There were a variety of good political reasons to bring down WTC7. Let Google be your friend on this. There's a couple of easily made guesses as to what may have happened, such as:
    - It was to be brought down using the chaos of the WTC1 & 2 collapses as smokescreen, but something went wrong with the countdown and the demolition was aborted pending repairs.
    - I have a hard time believing any planes were involved at all, so your 2nd question is moot for me, but if my guess immediately above is right, then there would have been an explosion cueing the point of impact. Perhaps that failed to go off, leaving any CGI plane simply disappearing into the building without leaving a trace. That would look rather weird, so they opted to bring it down in broad daylight hoping few would notice.

    • How did conspirators mine 240 exterior columns on each office floor of WT 1 & 2 (±50,000 locations) without detection? Central core columns? Freestanding columns in public view at grade? How was it concealed from building tenants, management, maintenance staff, visitors, CoNY building inspectors, supply services, etc? And the same in WTC 7?

    They didn't, simply because there was no need to. Bringing down the central core would be all that's needed to bring the building down. They did however, conscientiously cut the outer columns to manageable lengths.

    • Architects and engineers from Minoru Yamasaki & Associates, Emery Roth & Sons, Worthington Skilling Helle & Jackson, Joseph R. Loring & Assoc, Jaros Blum & Bolles, and the numerous other firms responsible for the WTC don't appear to be part of ae911truth. Are they part of the conspiracy? Are WTC building contractors and subcontractors part of the conspiracy? Building tenants?

    No, no, & (for the most part) no. There was that group of apparently Israeli "artists" that camped out in the WTC for 4 years immediately prior to 9/11, but I don't recall whether they were rent paying tenants. Incidentally, they had 24/7, construction access to the buildings and were ensconced in both impact zones.

    • How could the same administration that ignored 9/11 warnings, bungled Katrina and screwed-up Iraq 2003 pull off such a complex, faultless conspiracy? Why have no insiders spilled the tale?

    I don't believe the "same administration" was necessarily involved. I would posit that, for the most part, an entirely different administration pulled it off.

    Parenthetically, I'm not at all sure the "same administration bungled Katrina and screwed-up Iraq". A case can be made that at least some segments of the Administration got exactly the results they were looking for in both cases, but that's a different thread.

    • Replies: @Incitatus But surely those who can set up and stage-manage such a complex event without detection wouldn't screw up? I'm unable to find much of any value stored in WTC 7. Giuliani's crisis control center, yes, but that's hardly a reason to risk uncovering the conspiracy hours after the fall of WTC 1 & 2..

    If WTC 1 & 2 central core columns were, as you suggest, the only mining required, how was it done without detection? Four years effort by Israeli 'artists'? Undetected? What was their motive?

    You posit the exterior 14x14" steel 'cage' columns (240/floor) need not be mined but were instead "cut...to manageable lengths." What lengths? How was it done without detection?

    "- I have a hard time believing any planes were involved at all, so your 2nd question is moot for me, but if my guess immediately above is right, then there would have been an explosion cueing the point of impact. Perhaps that failed to go off, leaving any CGI plane simply disappearing into the building without leaving a trace. That would look rather weird, so they opted to bring it down in broad daylight hoping few would notice."

    CGI = computer-generated-imagery? So the planes were an illusion? Did they hypnotize eyewitnesses who saw the planes? The news crews? Etc?

    Still, that's great news! Where do you suggest two friends of mine, parents of a stewardess on American Flight 11, find their daughter? , @Jonathan Revusky

    Not to answer for The Great Revusky,
    LOL. Hi, don't worry that you are encroaching on my territory. It actually gets very very tiresome to argue with these shit eaters. So if you want to lend a hand, that's just great.

    I don't suppose it's lost on you that this "Incitatus" is some sort of professional disinfo agent. He's coming in to pick up the slack because "Boris" started seriously self-destructing. He's got some basic troll act that he's open-minded and so forth and just wants to know the truth...

    But, of course, the whole thing is ridiculous. Here we are, 15 years after the event, and the guy is representing that he really wants to get at the truth. Well, why didn't he read a single book on the topic in the last decade plus? Or why didn't he ever look at any of the material on http://ae911truth.org ?

    His alleged fence-sitting position makes no sense 15 years after the event.

    But if you look at his questions, it's all misdirection. Squid ink strategy. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  282. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 11:40 am GMT

    But I thought you were expressing certainty that the official story was true, no?

    I am not absolutely certain. New evidence could sway my opinion. You don't have any.

    And no, the "purchase of a plane ticket" is not proof of anything!

    Imagine if there were no records that Atta had bought the tickets. Dipshits like you would be going crazy repeating this fact from coast to coast, right? It's like you haven't done ANY real thinking your whole life.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    Imagine if there were no records that Atta had bought the tickets. Dipshits like you would be going crazy repeating this fact from coast to coast, right?
    Well, of course. What's your point?

    Oh,... hold on... I see... you don't understand the difference between a necessary and a sufficient condition.

    Sheesh. I guess I should explain it to you....

    Look... For example... for Lee Harvey Oswald to have assassinated JFK, he had to be in Dallas on 11/22/1963, right? That's a necessary condition. So if you could show that he was in New York or Miami on that day, it would be all over. Obviously he didn't do it in that case. But no, he was in Dallas on that day. The problem is that this is a necessary condition for him being guilty, but is certainly not sufficient .

    Mohamed Atta, like anybody, could not even board the flight if he didn't have a ticket, so if it was shown that he never had a ticket, that would be game over, like if Oswald was not even in Dallas.

    But no, Atta did have a plane ticket apparently. I assume he did. And of course, Oswald was in Dallas at the time of the JFK assassination. The problem is that these things are simply not proof of any sort of what needs to be proven in either case. It's a necessary , but not a sufficient condition.

    So what is going on here, Mr. Boris Shit-Eater, is that it is becoming increasingly clear that you don't even understand the most basic things in logic, like a necessary versus a sufficient condition. But, of course, in the shit eater mental universe, there is no need for any of that. The MSM tells you something so therefore it's true. That's how shit eaters operate.

    It's like you haven't done ANY real thinking your whole life.
    LOL. Project much? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  283. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 11:52 am GMT • 100 Words

    Well, a shit eater basically believes that asking for the evidence for any official story is stupid

    I told you where to find the evidence. You seem to be getting dumber.

    Well, what would be the point? You would just continue to believe the official story anyway.

    You have zero evidence for your beliefs. Zero.

    Hani Hanjour

    So one flight instructor saying he was bad years before means he couldn't have gotten better? And, of course, many pilots say that what he did was possible. Do you see how you don't apply the same scrutiny to things that you WANT to believe?

    This is how conspiracy theorists behave. Video evidence? Fake! Some pilots told me it was impossible, so it was!

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    I told you where to find the evidence.
    Oh, you did, huh?

    But anyway, this is getting nonsensical. How could you even tell me where to find evidence if you don't even know what evidence is? I mean, you obviously don't understand the difference between a necessary and a sufficient condition.

    You have zero evidence for your beliefs. Zero.
    You're just projecting. You are the one with no evidence for your beliefs. This is quite obvious. Somebody asks you what the evidence is and your "evidence" is stuff like "Mohammed Atta had a plane ticket". When you are asked for evidence (and I specifically said "the strongest evidence available") and you're coming up with worthless crap like that, it obviously means you have no evidence. Surely everybody sees that, no?

    So one flight instructor saying he was bad years before means he couldn't have gotten better?
    Years before??? Uhh, look, the incident in question was in August 2001, less than a month before he allegedly did his top gun maneuver with a passenger jet into the Pentagon.
    Hanjour began making cross-country flights in August to test security, and tried to rent a plane from Freeway Airport in Maryland; though he was declined after exhibiting difficulty controlling and landing a single-engine Cessna 172.[25]
    The above is from the Wikipedia page devoted to Hani Hanjour, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hani_Hanjour#2001

    He was not competent to fly a small Cessna in August of 2001. It was not YEARS before. You see, you're just making up shit now.

    This is like some guy who can't even pass a basic driving test in a regular car and three or four weeks later, he is competing successfully in the Indy 500. Or driving the Grand Prix circuit.

    If this was the only problem in the overall story, but it's like plot glitch #174 or something. I mean, the whole narrative is just shot through with ridiculous stuff like this.

    Some pilots told me it was impossible, so it was!
    Well, as a matter of fact, I take expert testimony on questions seriously. If a professional pilot with thousands of hours of experience flying Boeing passenger jets tells you that he himself could not execute the maneuver, it does not take a bloody genius to realize that Hani Hanjour certainly could not do it!

    If a controlled demolition specialist in Holland, Danny Jowenko, when shown the footage of WTC 7 imploding says that this is definitely a controlled demolition, it stands to reason that it is a controlled demolition! I don't presume to know more about flying airplanes than seasoned professional pilots or more about building implosions than a professional demolitions expert.

    Now, it's true that you have high level experts claiming the opposite, but you can generally see that these are people who are pretty beholden to the power structure, and will feel obliged to go along with whatever the official line is, such as the people at NIST who claim that building 7 imploded perfectly symmetrically from uncontrolled fires. These people say that because they have to. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  284. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 2:33 pm GMT • 100 Words

    It doesn't occur to you that anybody could support Ursula Haverbeck (and others like her) simply because they believe in free speech.

    Rurik denies the Holocaust and whines that Germans have been maligned because history was written down. You are probably stupid enough to agree with him.

    "Oh, we know that Mohammed Atta flew a plane into a building. He had a plane ticket! What more proof do you need?"

    You keep repeating this lie. I wonder why? Oh, you're a fucking moron. That's right.

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  285. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 3:56 pm GMT • 300 Words @Boris
    But I thought you were expressing certainty that the official story was true, no?
    I am not absolutely certain. New evidence could sway my opinion. You don't have any.
    And no, the "purchase of a plane ticket" is not proof of anything!
    Imagine if there were no records that Atta had bought the tickets. Dipshits like you would be going crazy repeating this fact from coast to coast, right? It's like you haven't done ANY real thinking your whole life.

    Imagine if there were no records that Atta had bought the tickets. Dipshits like you would be going crazy repeating this fact from coast to coast, right?

    Well, of course. What's your point?

    Oh, hold on I see you don't understand the difference between a necessary and a sufficient condition.

    Sheesh. I guess I should explain it to you .

    Look For example for Lee Harvey Oswald to have assassinated JFK, he had to be in Dallas on 11/22/1963, right? That's a necessary condition. So if you could show that he was in New York or Miami on that day, it would be all over. Obviously he didn't do it in that case. But no, he was in Dallas on that day. The problem is that this is a necessary condition for him being guilty, but is certainly not sufficient .

    Mohamed Atta, like anybody, could not even board the flight if he didn't have a ticket, so if it was shown that he never had a ticket, that would be game over, like if Oswald was not even in Dallas.

    But no, Atta did have a plane ticket apparently. I assume he did. And of course, Oswald was in Dallas at the time of the JFK assassination. The problem is that these things are simply not proof of any sort of what needs to be proven in either case. It's a necessary , but not a sufficient condition.

    So what is going on here, Mr. Boris Shit-Eater, is that it is becoming increasingly clear that you don't even understand the most basic things in logic, like a necessary versus a sufficient condition. But, of course, in the shit eater mental universe, there is no need for any of that. The MSM tells you something so therefore it's true. That's how shit eaters operate.

    It's like you haven't done ANY real thinking your whole life.

    LOL. Project much?

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  286. Incitatus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 4:35 pm GMT • 100 Words @Rurik
    I'm on the fence. I'd really like to know.
    you can start here

    http://www.europhysicsnews.org/articles/epn/pdf/2016/04/epn2016-47-4.pdf

    go to the featured article on page 21

    only the people that pulled this thing off know the exact whys and hows, and it certainly wasn't faultless, or we all wouldn't know by now that it was an obvious inside job

    what we are certain of is that the official story is a pack of lies, and that building seven didn't implode into its basement because of office fires.

    from there, you go down the rabbit hole

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1VtozvvG4c

    I've read quite a few studies over the years, and have seen several films (ae911truth etc). Skeptical by nature, I ask specific questions. Most who doubt the NIST scenario seem unable to venture any guess on responsible parties, motives or exact means. 'Controlled demolition' is all very well, but how would one go about it without betraying the conspiracy?

    Two observations. The government story, however improbable, is explained in detail. One need not believe it, but at least there's meat on the bones. The none-of-the-above crowd, however, coughs up vague notions in lieu of any real motives, means, and methodology. Usually they offer YouTube, ae911truth, and similar sites as the answer. Which is to say, they have no real answers at all.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    I ask specific questions.
    that's fine Incitatus, but all too often those roads lead down to obfuscation and conjecture. Like why did they implode building seven? The answer is we don't know. Probably because it was the control center for the whole operation, and they wanted to 'pull it' to erase all the evidence. Flight 92 was probably intended to hit building seven, as the pretext for its collapse, but then when it was shot down over Pennsylvania, they had to wing it.

    But that is all conjecture. Like asking someone who doesn't buy the Warren commission's findings, OK then 'why did they kill JFK'? Only the assassins know the answer to that question, just as only the people responsible for 911 could answer all the detailed queries.

    How did they rig the buildings surreptitiously? That is a whole gigantic side discussion, and people are having it, and we could spend hours debating all the minutia, but to what end?

    This we know. We know that building seven fell in a way that is incomprehensible based on simple physics. Indeed, impossible. We know that right away all the authorities set about having all the steel beams and forensic evidence of this stupendous and monumental and historic engineering failure, shipped off to China to be melted down and destroyed before any examination could be done by professionals. We're all supposed to just take the authorities word for it, even tho it appears even they conducted no investigation. Building seven wasn't even mentioned in the 911 commission report. Isn't that something?!

    But even more to the point Incitatus, is that several news organizations reported on the collapse of building seven before it happened. Did you know that?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOVnvFl5jZo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M26-B44qQIs

    now how could they have known this event was about to happen when even now no one can explain how or why that building came down. It's as if a news organization had reported that the first plane had hit the WTC tower 20 minutes before it did. Don't you think there'd be some legitimate curiosity as to how this news organization knew the first plane was going to hit, before it did? No?

    The collapse of building seven is a mystery, at the very least. An anomaly to all known laws of physics and structural engineering, even today no one can explain it any better than the magic bullet, that goes through Kennedy and then turns and hits Connelly a couple different times and then ends up pristine. But now imagine if a news organization had reported on the assassination of JFK 20 minutes before it happened. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  287. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 4:55 pm GMT • 500 Words @Boris
    Well, a shit eater basically believes that asking for the evidence for any official story is stupid
    I told you where to find the evidence. You seem to be getting dumber.
    Well, what would be the point? You would just continue to believe the official story anyway.
    You have zero evidence for your beliefs. Zero.

    Hani Hanjour
    So one flight instructor saying he was bad years before means he couldn't have gotten better? And, of course, many pilots say that what he did was possible. Do you see how you don't apply the same scrutiny to things that you WANT to believe?

    This is how conspiracy theorists behave. Video evidence? Fake! Some pilots told me it was impossible, so it was!

    I told you where to find the evidence.

    Oh, you did, huh?

    But anyway, this is getting nonsensical. How could you even tell me where to find evidence if you don't even know what evidence is? I mean, you obviously don't understand the difference between a necessary and a sufficient condition.

    You have zero evidence for your beliefs. Zero.

    You're just projecting. You are the one with no evidence for your beliefs. This is quite obvious. Somebody asks you what the evidence is and your "evidence" is stuff like "Mohammed Atta had a plane ticket". When you are asked for evidence (and I specifically said "the strongest evidence available") and you're coming up with worthless crap like that, it obviously means you have no evidence. Surely everybody sees that, no?

    So one flight instructor saying he was bad years before means he couldn't have gotten better?

    Years before??? Uhh, look, the incident in question was in August 2001, less than a month before he allegedly did his top gun maneuver with a passenger jet into the Pentagon.

    Hanjour began making cross-country flights in August to test security, and tried to rent a plane from Freeway Airport in Maryland; though he was declined after exhibiting difficulty controlling and landing a single-engine Cessna 172.[25]

    The above is from the Wikipedia page devoted to Hani Hanjour, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hani_Hanjour#2001

    He was not competent to fly a small Cessna in August of 2001. It was not YEARS before. You see, you're just making up shit now.

    This is like some guy who can't even pass a basic driving test in a regular car and three or four weeks later, he is competing successfully in the Indy 500. Or driving the Grand Prix circuit.

    If this was the only problem in the overall story, but it's like plot glitch #174 or something. I mean, the whole narrative is just shot through with ridiculous stuff like this.

    Some pilots told me it was impossible, so it was!

    Well, as a matter of fact, I take expert testimony on questions seriously. If a professional pilot with thousands of hours of experience flying Boeing passenger jets tells you that he himself could not execute the maneuver, it does not take a bloody genius to realize that Hani Hanjour certainly could not do it!

    If a controlled demolition specialist in Holland, Danny Jowenko, when shown the footage of WTC 7 imploding says that this is definitely a controlled demolition, it stands to reason that it is a controlled demolition! I don't presume to know more about flying airplanes than seasoned professional pilots or more about building implosions than a professional demolitions expert.

    Now, it's true that you have high level experts claiming the opposite, but you can generally see that these are people who are pretty beholden to the power structure, and will feel obliged to go along with whatever the official line is, such as the people at NIST who claim that building 7 imploded perfectly symmetrically from uncontrolled fires. These people say that because they have to.

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  288. Incitatus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 4:57 pm GMT • 200 Words @Erebus Not to answer for The Great Revusky, I'll offer some suggestions of my own:
    • Why did WT 1 (the first tower hit) fall after WT 2? Did conspirators mix up demo timing?
    - The 2nd tower hit failed to ignite properly. The fires were clearly in danger of going out entirely on their own soon after being "hit". It either got brought down immediately, or would stand as a testament to what happened.
    - They may have screwed up the timing, but I doubt it. To me it looks like they made a decision on the fly.
    • Why did they bother to take down WT 7? Wouldn't the lack of aerial impact reveal demo and conspiracy?
    There were a variety of good political reasons to bring down WTC7. Let Google be your friend on this. There's a couple of easily made guesses as to what may have happened, such as:
    - It was to be brought down using the chaos of the WTC1 & 2 collapses as smokescreen, but something went wrong with the countdown and the demolition was aborted pending repairs.
    - I have a hard time believing any planes were involved at all, so your 2nd question is moot for me, but if my guess immediately above is right, then there would have been an explosion cueing the point of impact. Perhaps that failed to go off, leaving any CGI plane simply disappearing into the building without leaving a trace. That would look rather weird, so they opted to bring it down in broad daylight hoping few would notice.
    • How did conspirators mine 240 exterior columns on each office floor of WT 1 & 2 (±50,000 locations) without detection? Central core columns? Freestanding columns in public view at grade? How was it concealed from building tenants, management, maintenance staff, visitors, CoNY building inspectors, supply services, etc? And the same in WTC 7?
    They didn't, simply because there was no need to. Bringing down the central core would be all that's needed to bring the building down. They did however, conscientiously cut the outer columns to manageable lengths.

    • Architects and engineers from Minoru Yamasaki & Associates, Emery Roth & Sons, Worthington Skilling Helle & Jackson, Joseph R. Loring & Assoc, Jaros Blum & Bolles, and the numerous other firms responsible for the WTC don't appear to be part of ae911truth. Are they part of the conspiracy? Are WTC building contractors and subcontractors part of the conspiracy? Building tenants?
    No, no, & (for the most part) no. There was that group of apparently Israeli "artists" that camped out in the WTC for 4 years immediately prior to 9/11, but I don't recall whether they were rent paying tenants. Incidentally, they had 24/7, construction access to the buildings and were ensconced in both impact zones.
    • How could the same administration that ignored 9/11 warnings, bungled Katrina and screwed-up Iraq 2003 pull off such a complex, faultless conspiracy? Why have no insiders spilled the tale?
    I don't believe the "same administration" was necessarily involved. I would posit that, for the most part, an entirely different administration pulled it off.

    Parenthetically, I'm not at all sure the "same administration... bungled Katrina and screwed-up Iraq". A case can be made that at least some segments of the Administration got exactly the results they were looking for in both cases, but that's a different thread.

    But surely those who can set up and stage-manage such a complex event without detection wouldn't screw up? I'm unable to find much of any value stored in WTC 7. Giuliani's crisis control center, yes, but that's hardly a reason to risk uncovering the conspiracy hours after the fall of WTC 1 & 2..

    If WTC 1 & 2 central core columns were, as you suggest, the only mining required, how was it done without detection? Four years effort by Israeli 'artists'? Undetected? What was their motive?

    You posit the exterior 14×14" steel 'cage' columns (240/floor) need not be mined but were instead "cut to manageable lengths." What lengths? How was it done without detection?

    "- I have a hard time believing any planes were involved at all, so your 2nd question is moot for me, but if my guess immediately above is right, then there would have been an explosion cueing the point of impact. Perhaps that failed to go off, leaving any CGI plane simply disappearing into the building without leaving a trace. That would look rather weird, so they opted to bring it down in broad daylight hoping few would notice."

    CGI = computer-generated-imagery? So the planes were an illusion? Did they hypnotize eyewitnesses who saw the planes? The news crews? Etc?

    Still, that's great news! Where do you suggest two friends of mine, parents of a stewardess on American Flight 11, find their daughter?

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  289. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 5:02 pm GMT • 100 Words

    Oh, hold on I see you don't understand the difference between a necessary and a sufficient condition.

    You are so stupid. I already wrote this:

    Obviously the plane ticket is a necessary but not sufficient piece of evidence.

    See? You can't even fucking read.

    I never said it was the only piece of evidence, and said explicitly that it was not sufficient. You took it out of a list of evidence and pretended I said it was "proof," when I never even used the word. Because you are too stupid to argue honestly.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    Oh, hold on I see you don't understand the difference between a necessary and a sufficient condition.
    (Shrug.) Little children are always using big words that they have overheard adults using. It doesn't really mean that they understand what they are saying.

    But okay, look, a shit eater like you could, in the appropriate context, understand what a necessary versus a sufficient condition is. Or you could understand what the beg the question fallacy is. But the problem remains that, at the key moment, you are able to NOT understand it.

    Because, at the key moment, the shit eater always ends up telling you (either directly or circuitously) that the official story is proof of the official story. Never fails. Earlier you told me to go read the page on wikipedia. Well, the page on wikipedia is just a synopsis of the official story. I asked you for proof so you were just telling me that the official story is proof of the official story.

    I never said it was the only piece of evidence, and said explicitly that it was not sufficient. You took it out of a list of evidence and pretended I said it was "proof,"
    Well, that's a mischaracterization. The fact remains, you said that Mohammed Atta having a plane ticket was evidence. It was in your list of evidence.

    AND NO, the fact remains: THAT IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING!

    I'll tell you what it is. It is SHIT. Because that is all a shit eater ever comes up with in a debate.

    Just shit. Like... the guy bought a plane ticket so he's the hijacker ... The government story is proof of the government story ...

    You're not the first shit eater I've debated with. All you guys ever come up with is SHIT. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  290. Incitatus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 5:10 pm GMT • 100 Words @Sam Shama Boris and Incitatus,
    I want you to know that Revusky loves you both, owing to your kind extension to him, the opportunity to partake of his daily bread - 9/11 "truth". Poor chap's been through a bit of a lean period lately; breadwise that is.

    I'd suggest a little caution nevertheless . You see, he repeatedly calls his interlocutors, "shit-eaters", a term he intends entirely as a fraternal invitation to a select club, of which, the dinner menu is limited, noxious and, -not to put too fine a point on it - unnatural. But of course he is entitled to his preferences, this being the day and age of inclusiveness and all that, I say to each his own.

    Btw he adores infinite reduction loops, and hopes one day to set foot on the moon. In the meantime do remind him - the dosage is twice daily, ideally on an empty stomach.

    Sam,

    Enjoyed your advice, which I take to heart.

    I too noted JR's fixation with coprophagia. I put it down to ecological pragmatism on his part. He produces such immense quantities of the product, he suggestively hopes others will consume it. He must be in constant danger of exploding.

    Honoré de Balzac had a great observation on conspracists:

    "[they] passed sovereign judgment on society the more readily because of the inferiority of their own status, for unappreciated men make up for their lowly position by the disdainful eye they cast upon the world."

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  291. Rurik says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 5:49 pm GMT • 400 Words @Jonathan Revusky
    (I see you have literal Nazi cheerleaders. Congrats.)
    Hi, shit eater. I initially glossed over this last bit about my having "Nazi cheerleaders". I suppose you're calling Rurik here a "Nazi".

    Rurik was referring to this Ursula Haverbeck case where, last year, an 87-year-old German woman was sentenced to 10 months prison for asking questions about the Holocaust, which is a crime in Germany, France and at least another dozen countries. Rurik (like myself) sees this as a travesty, and thus, in your mental shit eater world, is therefore a "Nazi".

    It doesn't occur to you that anybody could support Ursula Haverbeck (and others like her) simply because they believe in free speech. If I say that it is utterly wrong to imprison somebody for expressing certain views, does that mean logically that I share those views? No, I might share those views or not. Or I might partially share them. The issue is the State terrorizing little old ladies in their eighties for simply asking questions.

    But, again, your approach to the question is typical of the shit eater. A shit eater always accepts the dominant framing of any question and never thinks for himself. Occasionally people do wise up. I myself did, but it is the exception, not the rule.

    Besides, I don't think I was ever as bad a case as you are. I don't think that I was ever saying stuff like: "Oh, we know that Mohammed Atta flew a plane into a building. He had a plane ticket! What more proof do you need?"

    You're such a hard case, it's probably incurable.

    Ursula Haverbeck , an 87-year-old German woman was sentenced to 10 months prison for asking questions about the Holocaust, which is a crime in Germany, . Rurik (like myself) sees this as a travesty,

    That's exactly true JR, I consider something like that an obvious travesty at the very least, and an abomination of human reason and compassion and simple decency. She may be wrong, but by what right do they have to tell her she's not allowed to ask questions? Fuck that shit. And fuck the people who put her in prison. What are they so afraid of, eh? Is what I'd like to know.

    He had a plane ticket! What more proof do you need?"

    ahh, but JR, you're forgetting the other, shocking proof that this was Osama and his 19 henchmen.. the passport!

    the magical passport that flew out of the terrorist's pocket or carry on, and through the carnage of the plane's explosion and through the fireball and all that glass and concrete and then gently glided down t0 the New York street, where it was quickly found before the dust fell on it and handed to the FBI and then rushed to the MSM, where upon they all let us all know that it had been found! so that we could all know who was responsible for this heinous attack!

    I suppose Boris forgot about that unassailable evidence and proof or he would have surely mentioned it by now. And that's not all! They found Korans in the terrorist's rental car! Did you know that?

    and they caught some of the terrorists actually filming the first plane hitting the tower, and these slimy bastards were all happy and celebrating the horrors, while the people who saw them were aghast, at how anyone could be happy at all that death of innocent people.

    err, um, wait, no, those weren't the terrorists come to think of it. Never mind that last part.

    But the passport!!

    that was undeniable physical evidence! Proof!

    and then there was the witness, right there on the spot, to explain how the buildings collapsed

    "mostly due to structural failure, because the fire was just too intense"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5y8PtfKA14

    all these things were explained to us all right away. They knew it was Bin Laden within hours. And they knew right away how the buildings fell, and had planted that "knowledge" into us all, with videos like the Harley guy, who planted that seed in our collective conscieness. for how hundreds of thousands of tons of steel and concrete was going to >>poof<< into so much powder..

    "mostly due to structural failure, because the fire was just too intense"

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  292. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 6:03 pm GMT • 300 Words

    I mean, you obviously don't understand the difference between a necessary and a sufficient condition.

    Still embarrassing yourself.

    he was declined after exhibiting difficulty controlling and landing a single-engine Cessna 172.[25]

    Here's the citation for that claim:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20020405020924/http://www.newsday.com/ny-usflight232380680sep23.story

    The guy that wouldn't let Hanjour rent a plane w/o more lessons also said this:

    Despite Hanjour's poor reviews, he did have some ability as a pilot, said Bernard of Freeway Airport. "There's no doubt in my mind that once that [hijacked jet] got going, he could have pointed that plane at a building and hit it," he said.

    So your theory collapses. Unless the guy lied about this part, but told the truth about Hanjour not being able to control the Cessna with much skill? You are dumb enough to believe that, so

    Well, as a matter of fact, I take expert testimony on questions seriously.

    Well, so you take Bernard seriously then? Or, wait, he's a government stooge who accidentally told the truth once? Shape-shifter?

    If a controlled demolition specialist in Holland, Danny Jowenko, when shown the footage of WTC 7 imploding says that this is definitely a controlled demolition, it stands to reason that it is a controlled demolition!

    Here's a different expert's view–an expert who actually examined the evidence:

    http://www.implosionworld.com/Article-WTC%20STUDY%208-06%20w%20clarif%20as%20of%209-8-06%20.pdf

    So is he (Circle one^):
    Government stooge
    Shapeshifter
    Lizard man
    Hologram

    such as the people at NIST who claim that building 7 imploded perfectly symmetrically from uncontrolled fires

    This is another lie. I already posted a summary of what they said.

    I really don't care what your response is. I know it will probably be more insanely stupid than the last.

    [MORE]
    ^Disclaimer for morons: Don't actually circle it on your monitor.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    Well, so you take Bernard seriously then?
    Look, I wasn't there, but the incident, as recounted, seems to be true and it happened 3 weeks before 9/11, NOT years before, as you were trying to claim. To recap...

    Hani Hanjour tried to rent a single-engine Cessna and a flight instructor went up with him and said the guy did not have the skill to fly that plane. The single-engine Cessna.

    Now, it is claimed that 3 weeks later and Hani can fly the big Boeing in a maneuver that professional pilots with thousands of hours have said they could not do. Just to focus this, here is what the cockpit of a Boeing 757 looks like:

    https://www.google.es/search?q=boeing+757+cockpit&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA-8bMu4XPAhVLuBQKHaXbA_oQ_AUICCgB&biw=1024&bih=483

    The guy that wouldn't let Hanjour rent a plane w/o more lessons also said this:
    Despite Hanjour's poor reviews, he did have some ability as a pilot, said Bernard of Freeway Airport. "There's no doubt in my mind that once that [hijacked jet] got going, he could have pointed that plane at a building and hit it," he said.
    Well, c'mon, the guy doubtless came under pressure to say that the guy could have done what they said he did. But look, obviously, if he evaluated the guy as unable to control a Cessna in August, the guy couldn't suddenly fly a big Boeing in September! And this business that he "pointed that plane at a building and hit it", that is not what allegedly happened with the Pentagon flight. The plane allegedly flew this really incredible 270 degree descending loop and, in the final stretch flew at treetop level into the exact part of the Pentagon that was hit. And as I said, you can look at the Pilots for 9/11 Truth and see that there are professional pilots with thousands of hours flying these Boeing airliners who say they could not fly that maneuver. So the guy supposedly was flying one of these big planes for the first (and last) time in his life and successfully carried off this maneuver. It's completely ridiculous bullshit, but when you're a shit eater, it's like "mmm, yum, yum".

    And really, you know, this is such an absurd argument to be having. Okay, it's obvious that if somebody can't really control a Cessna in August of 2001, he can't do some top gun maneuver in a big Boeing in September of 2001. But it doesn't even matter. The flight didn't even take place! Or certainly, at the very least, there is not a shred of evidence that any Boeing airliner crashed into the Pentagon anyway.

    So, finally, whether Hani Hanjour could have flown the plane in that maneuver or not hardly matters. The overall narrative just has so many problems in it that, even if you concede a given point just for the sake of argument, like assume that Hani Hanjour really could fly a Boeing 757 in this elaborate maneuver only 3 weeks after demonstrating an inability to control a Cessna, it still doesn't matter because there is very strong reason to believe that the flight did not even take place.

    Here's a different expert's view–an expert who actually examined the evidence:

    http://www.implosionworld.com/Article-WTC%20STUDY%208-06%20w%20clarif%20as%20of%209-8-06%20.pdf

    I hadn't seen that one before, but a quick googling shows that there are at least a couple of extensive rebuttals to this article. For example, here:

    http://www.911research.wtc7.net/reviews/blanchard/index.html

    and here:

    http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=5126

    Now, I lack the expertise to be certain about these things, but I would just make the point that if you googled up this Blanchard stuff, then you would easily find the above-linked rebuttals as well. But since the rebuttals don't support what you want to believe, you just don't mention them.

    It's like there are phone calls, I mean testimony that somebody got a phone call, and then that supports the official story, you say that is strong proof but if I point to testimony where Atta's father got a phone call the day after 9/11 from his son, you immediately say Atta's father was lying.

    Your whole thing is just always going to be to cherry pick things based on what you want to believe. That's a completely corrupted intellectual process.

    The reason I am quite certain that the official narrative is untrue is that there just really is such an accumulation of problems with the story that it really just can't be true. The Hani Hanjour thing is like just one of literally hundreds of glitches in the story, that the guy they say flew that plane obviously did not have the skills. That the flight instructor in question, the Bernard guy then claimed that he did, you can see that he must have been pressured to say that. If you can't fly a Cessna, you can't fly a Boeing 757. And besides, the conditions under which this supposedly happened, where the guy had just murdered the pilot and taken over the plane and his adrenaline would be sky high and he sits down and, flying this plane for the very first time, calmly maneuvers the plane in this 270 degree looping descent.

    This just didn't happen. There is no photographic or video evidence at the alleged crash site that is consistent with a Boeing 757 having crashed there! This is all just a constructed fiction. Anybody who studies this in any kind of intellectually honest way surely comes to that conclusion.

    The only way you can believe this stuff is if you have this kind of intense emotional need to believe it. You look at what they are saying happened cold-bloodedly and it is really just glaringly obviously that it's all total bullshit. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  293. Incitatus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 6:05 pm GMT @Jonathan Revusky
    (I see you have literal Nazi cheerleaders. Congrats.)
    Hi, shit eater. I initially glossed over this last bit about my having "Nazi cheerleaders". I suppose you're calling Rurik here a "Nazi".

    Rurik was referring to this Ursula Haverbeck case where, last year, an 87-year-old German woman was sentenced to 10 months prison for asking questions about the Holocaust, which is a crime in Germany, France and at least another dozen countries. Rurik (like myself) sees this as a travesty, and thus, in your mental shit eater world, is therefore a "Nazi".

    It doesn't occur to you that anybody could support Ursula Haverbeck (and others like her) simply because they believe in free speech. If I say that it is utterly wrong to imprison somebody for expressing certain views, does that mean logically that I share those views? No, I might share those views or not. Or I might partially share them. The issue is the State terrorizing little old ladies in their eighties for simply asking questions.

    But, again, your approach to the question is typical of the shit eater. A shit eater always accepts the dominant framing of any question and never thinks for himself. Occasionally people do wise up. I myself did, but it is the exception, not the rule.

    Besides, I don't think I was ever as bad a case as you are. I don't think that I was ever saying stuff like: "Oh, we know that Mohammed Atta flew a plane into a building. He had a plane ticket! What more proof do you need?"

    You're such a hard case, it's probably incurable.

    Of course we all grieve for Ursula. Ten months in prison. Pity. But look on the bright side. Perhaps she'll be able to knit a few flags and armbands? Sweaters for the Eastern Front? Thermal underpants for the SS?

    • Replies: @Rurik
    Of course we all grieve for Ursula.
    it's not about Ursula

    you can hate her guts and her viewpoint all you want, but do you really want people put in prison for expressing opinions you find abhorrent?

    for asking questions you don't want asked?

    perhaps so, if I get the tone of your comment

    free speech is intended to protect the speech we all most dislike, or it's not free speech at all, is it? It's just speech that you or I consider acceptable, and I for one don't want anyone being the arbiter of acceptable speech or questions. Fuck no! Not Jews, not Nazis, not rightwing religious nuts or politically correct SJWs or anyone else, thankyouverymuch.

    as for her questions about the Holocaust, we already know there were no human soap factories or human tattoo skin lampshades. These were blood libels spread against the German people to try to justify the genocidal horrors that were visited upon millions of German civilians after the war was over. They were an evil people are deserved it all. Exactly like what the Nazis were saying about the Jews.

    My agenda is the truth. If it's true that the Germans were running extermination camps, like Eisenhower ran for German POWs after the war was over, then I want to know about them, and their scope and purpose. I want to know the truth about it all, come what may, and I certainly don't want little old ladies put in prison, (no matter what their views are), under any circumstances. I can't even comprehend the moral cowardice of a society (or individuals) that would tolerate such a thing.

    Germany is suffering women being raped in the streets by savages, but they save their prison space for her

    http://carolynyeager.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/ursula%20haverbeck.jpg?itok=GI4bbz9C

    and why? Because she's asking questions they don't want people asking Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  294. Rurik says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 6:13 pm GMT • 400 Words @Incitatus I've read quite a few studies over the years, and have seen several films (ae911truth etc). Skeptical by nature, I ask specific questions. Most who doubt the NIST scenario seem unable to venture any guess on responsible parties, motives or exact means. 'Controlled demolition' is all very well, but how would one go about it without betraying the conspiracy?

    Two observations. The government story, however improbable, is explained in detail. One need not believe it, but at least there's meat on the bones. The none-of-the-above crowd, however, coughs up vague notions in lieu of any real motives, means, and methodology. Usually they offer YouTube, ae911truth, and similar sites as the answer. Which is to say, they have no real answers at all.

    I ask specific questions.

    that's fine Incitatus, but all too often those roads lead down to obfuscation and conjecture. Like why did they implode building seven? The answer is we don't know. Probably because it was the control center for the whole operation, and they wanted to 'pull it' to erase all the evidence. Flight 92 was probably intended to hit building seven, as the pretext for its collapse, but then when it was shot down over Pennsylvania, they had to wing it.

    But that is all conjecture. Like asking someone who doesn't buy the Warren commission's findings, OK then 'why did they kill JFK'? Only the assassins know the answer to that question, just as only the people responsible for 911 could answer all the detailed queries.

    How did they rig the buildings surreptitiously? That is a whole gigantic side discussion, and people are having it, and we could spend hours debating all the minutia, but to what end?

    This we know. We know that building seven fell in a way that is incomprehensible based on simple physics. Indeed, impossible. We know that right away all the authorities set about having all the steel beams and forensic evidence of this stupendous and monumental and historic engineering failure, shipped off to China to be melted down and destroyed before any examination could be done by professionals. We're all supposed to just take the authorities word for it, even tho it appears even they conducted no investigation. Building seven wasn't even mentioned in the 911 commission report. Isn't that something?!

    But even more to the point Incitatus, is that several news organizations reported on the collapse of building seven before it happened. Did you know that?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOVnvFl5jZo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M26-B44qQIs

    now how could they have known this event was about to happen when even now no one can explain how or why that building came down. It's as if a news organization had reported that the first plane had hit the WTC tower 20 minutes before it did. Don't you think there'd be some legitimate curiosity as to how this news organization knew the first plane was going to hit, before it did? No?

    The collapse of building seven is a mystery, at the very least. An anomaly to all known laws of physics and structural engineering, even today no one can explain it any better than the magic bullet, that goes through Kennedy and then turns and hits Connelly a couple different times and then ends up pristine. But now imagine if a news organization had reported on the assassination of JFK 20 minutes before it happened.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz I ask you as just the latest person to assert on UR that something - in this case the collapse of WTC 7 - is "an anomaly to all known laws of physics and structural engineering" or similar wotds which plainly mean that such laws make the collapse without deliberate demolition impossible....*what are your qualifations to be taken seriously on the implications of the laws of physics and structural engineering*? I have dealt with a lot of expert witnesse and you don't sound like one of them,not even the dodgy ones that have to be exposed and evaluated in court every day. Indeed do you consider yourself competent to evaluate expert evidence on physics and structural engineering like a judge assisted by the questions of counsel? If so why? Try persuading your readers. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  295. Rurik says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 6:50 pm GMT • 300 Words @Incitatus Of course we all grieve for Ursula. Ten months in prison. Pity. But look on the bright side. Perhaps she'll be able to knit a few flags and armbands? Sweaters for the Eastern Front? Thermal underpants for the SS?

    Of course we all grieve for Ursula.

    it's not about Ursula

    you can hate her guts and her viewpoint all you want, but do you really want people put in prison for expressing opinions you find abhorrent?

    for asking questions you don't want asked?

    perhaps so, if I get the tone of your comment

    free speech is intended to protect the speech we all most dislike, or it's not free speech at all, is it? It's just speech that you or I consider acceptable, and I for one don't want anyone being the arbiter of acceptable speech or questions. Fuck no! Not Jews, not Nazis, not rightwing religious nuts or politically correct SJWs or anyone else, thankyouverymuch.

    as for her questions about the Holocaust, we already know there were no human soap factories or human tattoo skin lampshades. These were blood libels spread against the German people to try to justify the genocidal horrors that were visited upon millions of German civilians after the war was over. They were an evil people are deserved it all. Exactly like what the Nazis were saying about the Jews.

    My agenda is the truth. If it's true that the Germans were running extermination camps, like Eisenhower ran for German POWs after the war was over, then I want to know about them, and their scope and purpose. I want to know the truth about it all, come what may, and I certainly don't want little old ladies put in prison, (no matter what their views are), under any circumstances. I can't even comprehend the moral cowardice of a society (or individuals) that would tolerate such a thing.

    Germany is suffering women being raped in the streets by savages, but they save their prison space for her

    http://carolynyeager.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/ursula%20haverbeck.jpg?itok=GI4bbz9C

    and why? Because she's asking questions they don't want people asking

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    you can hate her guts and her viewpoint all you want, but do you really want people put in prison for expressing opinions you find abhorrent?
    That's a rhetorical question, isn't it? The guy you're addressing is a vicious Zio-fascist scumbag. He takes delight in somebody like Ursula Haverbeck being imprisoned for challenging Zionist power. Look at what he wrote.

    It's funny, because in his role here as professional disinfo agent, it would probably make more sense for him to express sympathy with Ursula Haverbeck and agree with us that her imprisonment is unjust and so on, in order to build a rapport and try to come across as even somewhat reasonable. But the thing is that the morally degenerate zio scumbag can't help gloating over the fact that the Zionist power structure manage to imprison this little old lady.

    Scumbags will be scumbags.

    This kind of thing does remind one of the kind of people you're dealing with here. That little degenerate bastard Sam Shama is exactly like this too, you know. , @Incitatus I cherish free speech. But I don't live in a country that twice experienced the catastrophic results of demagogic incitement. I trust Germans know what they're doing, but I note your concern. And your angst over suffering. But isn't it a very selective angst?

    "...even if you take them at their word, the Holocaust was done as humanely as it's was humanly possible to kill people. Sort of like the Soylent Green euthanasia scene the violins were playing as they were handed a towel to take a 'shower', and then the death was as benign as could be arranged under the circumstances. And that was their worst case scenario of the gas chambers as I remember them being shown to us as children. Compare that to Dresden, which is undisputed and was as calculatedly cruel and sadistic as it was possible to imagine. And then some."

    "...and yet it's the Germans who everyone condemns for inhumanity."

    -Rurik 28dec15 #205

    http://www.unz.com/article/no-matter-who-becomes-president-israel-wins/#comments

    Why, like most who mourn Dresden 1944, don't you ever mention Warsaw Sep 1939? The same number of civilians - 20,000-25,000 - were killed. Or how about Warsaw Aug 1944 (150,000-200,000 civilians killed)? In fact, you could say Germans pioneered civilian killing (shelling of Paris 1870-71, bombing London in 1915, the Condor Legion and Guernica 1937, etc). They were very good at it. You never mention it. Does only German blood count? Or do you simply want to use Dresden to legitimize Nazi aggression?

    I confess I'm also puzzled by your preoccupation for the Lebensborn - most unusual for a Norseman.

    btw. You aren't by any chance Anders Behring Brevik blogging away in your prison cell? , @L.K Well, Rurik,

    You are discussing these issues with an obvious troll, 'incitatus', a piece of filth who is here to spread disinformation & propaganda & who obviously does not care one bit about truth or free speech. Remember that other scumbag, 'iffen', who hoped for European style censorship to be applied in the US?

    These cretins are so obvious.

    No, Rurik, the National Socialists did NOT run extermination camps.

    Do u still have doubts?

    As Prof.Faurisson said, on the intellectual level, the revisionists have already won.
    It is just that people ain't allowed to know it... in fact, people are not allowed to even know there is a debate on the holohoax.

    Why, Rurik, do I say the holocau$t is a monstrous Hoax?

    As Prof.T.Dalton wrote:

    There are, in fact, three essential elements to the event called the Holocaust:
    (1) intention to mass murder the Jews, by Hitler and the Nazi elite;
    (2) the use of gas chambers(the extermination camps & gas vans); and
    (3) the 6 million deaths.

    If any one of these three should undergo substantial revision, then, technically speaking, we no longer have "The Holocaust"-at least, not in any meaningful sense. (Broadly speaking, of course, any mass fatality is a holocaust.) Holocaust revisionism contends that, not one, but all three of these points are grossly in error, and thus that "The Holocaust," as such, did not occur. Obviously, this is not to deny that a tragedy happened to the Jews, nor that many thousands died, directly and indirectly, as a result of the war. But the conventional account is an extreme exaggeration.

    Most people are led to believe - I was one of them - in regards to the 'holocau$t', that there is abundant proof of the alleged crime, as described above.
    This is absolutely NOT THE CASE.

    In fact, many holocaust 'historians', I call them quacks, have actually admitted the near total lack of material and documentary evidence.
    There is, as the revisionist side has shown, an abundance of evidence refuting the official dossier, which is basically atrocity propaganda on steroids.

    One good book that covers all bases in a more accessible format is "Lectures on the Holocaust
    Controversial Issues Cross Examined" by Germar Rudolf.
    http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/15-loth.pdf

    http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?main_page=1 Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  296. Incitatus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 7:00 pm GMT • 200 Words @Jonathan Revusky
    I never said this. Being skeptical of the official story is fine. But you aren't just skeptical. You are absolutely positive that the official story is false.
    Hold on, let me get this straight. What you object to is not that I disbelieve the story, but that I express certainty . But I thought you were expressing certainty that the official story was true, no? Or maybe you're not certain... could you clarify your position now? You're starting to sound really wishy washy.

    Well, if you're saying there is strong proof for the official story, then that's basically saying you're certain, no? Though I'm still trying to figure out what you think the proof is... it's these alleged phone calls? That's the strongest proof you've got?


    You are so sure that the official story is wrong that you heap abuse on people who haven't decided the same. For that level of certitude, you need some actual evidence, not just your feelings about things.
    Well, there is a mountain of evidence that the official story is untrue. The strongest single piece of physical evidence is that they claim that building 7 imploded in a perfectly symmetrical way from office fires basically. So NIST and FEMA are clearly claiming that something happened that is physically impossible. That is the strongest proof. And you have 2700 or so architects and engineers who have been willing to put their name on a petition calling for a new investigation on this basis -- that the official story is simply not physically possible.

    But there is also the issue of expert testimony from pilots who state that the feat of flying that these people allegedly pulled off is simply impossible for neophyte pilots. There is also testimony that the civilian Boeing airliners that allegedly flew into the towers cannot even fly at that speed at sea level. There are huge problems with the story.

    There is also the problem that all the testimony about Al Qaeda's planning of the attacks came from torturing one individual who was probably not even an Al Qaeda member. See this article: http://www.voltairenet.org/article177178.html

    Independent researchers have uncovered so many problems with the official story on so many levels that, I think one can say pretty objectively that there is basically zero possibility that the official story is truthful.

    The only way to maintain one's status as a shit eater, and to continue believing the official bullshit, is by being wilfully ignorant of just about every hard factual aspect of what is known!

    You can start by reading the Wiki page and go from there.
    What Wiki page? Oh, you mean Wikipedia? Well, I guess you don't realize that all that Wikipedia ever does with these sorts of events, whether it's JFK or 9/11 or Charlie Hebdo or whatever, is that the wikipedia page is just a synopsis of whatever the official story is.

    Earlier, you indignantly said that you know what the "beg the question" fallacy is, but obviously you don't. The Wikipedia page is just a synopsis of the official story. In any case, being a shit eater basically requires you to have a very weak grasp of what "question begging" is. Because that's what being a shit eater is. You ask a shit eater what the proof of whatever official story is and they just repeat the official story. Or they point you to a summary of the official story that is on wikipedia or somewhere else. It's always just self-referential question-begging.


    It isn't hearsay. Witnesses are on the record. Recordings exist.
    Dude, I can pick up a phone and call somebody and say that I'm in a plane and we're being hijacked. It's really just not very strong evidence. It's like saying that some guy put up a video saying he did it. I can put up a video on youtube saying I did it.
    It is backed up by documentation. Here's one example:

    http://www.911myths.com/index.php?title=Renee_May_calls

    Yeah, this rings a bell. A few years ago I looked through this stuff and it's really quite murky. There's a pretty detailed analysis of those phone calls from that flight here:

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/9-11-what-the-telephone-records-reveal-about-calls-from-aa-flight-77-did-barbara-olson-attempt-any-calls-at-all/26594

    It's all pretty much irrelevant really anyway, because it looks pretty clear that no passenger airline hit the pentagon anyway! There just isn't the debris that you would expect to see, for example. And the guy they say flew the plane, Hani Hanjour, lacked the skills to fly a single-engine Cessna. It was a missile or some sort of drone, it appears. And, of course, all that is a far bigger problem with that flight 77 than even these screwy phone records! I mean, if the flight didn't even take place, to talk about their being proof that somebody made a call from the flight in question...


    Um, no, dipshit. Atta's dad has a reason to lie–to protect his son's memory.
    Well, I concede that point. But the fact remains that Atta's dad may be telling the truth and he may be lying. And the same applies to the people who say they got a phone call from somebody on a plane. They could be telling the truth and they could be lying. And they could have plenty strong reasons to lie too!

    It's just not very strong evidence. If this is the strongest evidence that you have, I think the debate is basically over.


    It's only murky to people like you. The fact that you doubt the phone calls when there is so much clear evidence for them just illustrates what a huge fucking idiot you are.
    Well, the only reason you believe in the phone calls so firmly is because it supports what you want to believe. You don't believe in the Atta Sr. phone call on 9/12, because it doesn't support what you want to believe. Look at the article I linked. As evidence, it just is not very clear at all. Generally speaking, anybody can make a phone call and claim that they are in a plane getting hijacked.

    Anybody can say they got a phone call too. And we all know that there are people who will say anything for a few bucks. This is not hard evidence.


    The fact that Airfones existed means that your "doubt" that it is technically possible to make a call from an airplane is absolutely wrong.
    Uhh, no, because not all the planes had the Airfones on them, you see. At this point in time, for example, some flights have Wifi on them, but most don't. DRG made the point that the American Airlines 767's in question did not have Airfones installed on them until 2002 or something like that. But then I think somebody from the company claimed that they did, but I suspect that DRG was right the first time, but as I said, I'm simply not sure about that. I don't know if the planes in question had airfones on them or not. But this other problem, the expert testimony that a Boeing 767 can't even fly that fast at sea level anyway, this a much bigger problem that would trump the whole issue of whether there were Airfones or not!

    Again, in the case of Flight 77 that flew into the Pentagon, there is the bigger problem that it does not look like any civil jet airliner flew into the Pentagon in the first place, and that is a much bigger first order problem!

    But look, as I said, unfortunately, you are a shit eater and it's a waste of time to debate with shit eaters. I have done it enough that I can see what you do. You will automatically discount any evidence that doesn't support the official bullshit, and then the evidence that does support it, you'll claim that it's rock solid. So, for example, if the Atta Sr. phone call supported what you want to believe, you'd be saying: "Oh, there's a witness and blah blah." But since it doesn't support what you want to believe, then.

    Again, you're in a very bad position if the strongest evidence you have is these phone calls!

    So, do you have some piece of evidence that you think is stronger than the alleged phone calls or is that your answer to the question I posed. "The strongest evidence for the official is these phone calls."

    Oh, and even then, how that gets you to the bearded guy in Afghanistan....

    " you have 2700 or so architects and engineers who have been willing to put their name on a petition calling for a new investigation on this basis - that the official story is simply not physically possible."

    Great point! 2700! Something must be fishy.

    But how many licensed architects and engineers are there in the US? Turns out there's 105,042 + 822,575 = 927,617 (source: AIA & NCEES). 2,700 represents 0.29% of the total number of US architects and engineers. That means 99.71% haven't called for a new investigation.

    But wait! Turns out Mr. Gage's petition is signed not only by licensed US architects and engineers, but also by the 'degreed' (without licenses they're not legally able to call themselves architects or engineers). It gets even better – many of the signatories are foreign (UK. Sri Lanka, Canada, Bolivia, Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands, Colombia, etc). Nothing wrong with that, of course. The more, the merrier

    But the base increases yet again. Linkedin estimates 3,600,000 licensed architects on earth. If the proportion of architects to engineers is similar to the US ratio 28,191,295 engineers exist, bringing the combined total to 31,791,295 architects and engineers worldwide.

    2,700 is 0.0085% of 31,791,295. In other words, 99.9915% of worldwide architects and engineers haven't called for a new investigation. Are they part of a conspiracy?

    ae911truth? Maybe Richard Gage enjoys having a nice tax-exempt slush fund for travel and lecture fees. Maybe he enjoys gadfly celebrity his practice never delivered.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    But how many licensed architects and engineers are there in the US? Turns out there's 105,042 + 822,575 = 927,617 (source: AIA & NCEES). 2,700 represents 0.29% of the total number of US architects and engineers. That means 99.71% haven't called for a new investigation.
    Ah, the nostalgia, I haven't heard this particular shit eater argument for a while. Yeah, 99.71% of the architects and engineers in the USA DID NOT sign the petition so therefore they all believe the official story.

    So, if a million people march on Washington tomorrow demanding the end to all the wars, that doesn't mean anything either, because 300+ million did not march, and therefore, they are in favor of all the wars! Obviously!

    Hey, how's the weather in Tel Aviv? Hot as hell, eh? Have they put air conditioning in your office yet? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  297. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 7:01 pm GMT • 200 Words @Erebus Not to answer for The Great Revusky, I'll offer some suggestions of my own:
    • Why did WT 1 (the first tower hit) fall after WT 2? Did conspirators mix up demo timing?
    - The 2nd tower hit failed to ignite properly. The fires were clearly in danger of going out entirely on their own soon after being "hit". It either got brought down immediately, or would stand as a testament to what happened.
    - They may have screwed up the timing, but I doubt it. To me it looks like they made a decision on the fly.
    • Why did they bother to take down WT 7? Wouldn't the lack of aerial impact reveal demo and conspiracy?
    There were a variety of good political reasons to bring down WTC7. Let Google be your friend on this. There's a couple of easily made guesses as to what may have happened, such as:
    - It was to be brought down using the chaos of the WTC1 & 2 collapses as smokescreen, but something went wrong with the countdown and the demolition was aborted pending repairs.
    - I have a hard time believing any planes were involved at all, so your 2nd question is moot for me, but if my guess immediately above is right, then there would have been an explosion cueing the point of impact. Perhaps that failed to go off, leaving any CGI plane simply disappearing into the building without leaving a trace. That would look rather weird, so they opted to bring it down in broad daylight hoping few would notice.
    • How did conspirators mine 240 exterior columns on each office floor of WT 1 & 2 (±50,000 locations) without detection? Central core columns? Freestanding columns in public view at grade? How was it concealed from building tenants, management, maintenance staff, visitors, CoNY building inspectors, supply services, etc? And the same in WTC 7?
    They didn't, simply because there was no need to. Bringing down the central core would be all that's needed to bring the building down. They did however, conscientiously cut the outer columns to manageable lengths.

    • Architects and engineers from Minoru Yamasaki & Associates, Emery Roth & Sons, Worthington Skilling Helle & Jackson, Joseph R. Loring & Assoc, Jaros Blum & Bolles, and the numerous other firms responsible for the WTC don't appear to be part of ae911truth. Are they part of the conspiracy? Are WTC building contractors and subcontractors part of the conspiracy? Building tenants?
    No, no, & (for the most part) no. There was that group of apparently Israeli "artists" that camped out in the WTC for 4 years immediately prior to 9/11, but I don't recall whether they were rent paying tenants. Incidentally, they had 24/7, construction access to the buildings and were ensconced in both impact zones.
    • How could the same administration that ignored 9/11 warnings, bungled Katrina and screwed-up Iraq 2003 pull off such a complex, faultless conspiracy? Why have no insiders spilled the tale?
    I don't believe the "same administration" was necessarily involved. I would posit that, for the most part, an entirely different administration pulled it off.

    Parenthetically, I'm not at all sure the "same administration... bungled Katrina and screwed-up Iraq". A case can be made that at least some segments of the Administration got exactly the results they were looking for in both cases, but that's a different thread.

    Not to answer for The Great Revusky,

    LOL. Hi, don't worry that you are encroaching on my territory. It actually gets very very tiresome to argue with these shit eaters. So if you want to lend a hand, that's just great.

    I don't suppose it's lost on you that this "Incitatus" is some sort of professional disinfo agent. He's coming in to pick up the slack because "Boris" started seriously self-destructing. He's got some basic troll act that he's open-minded and so forth and just wants to know the truth

    But, of course, the whole thing is ridiculous. Here we are, 15 years after the event, and the guy is representing that he really wants to get at the truth. Well, why didn't he read a single book on the topic in the last decade plus? Or why didn't he ever look at any of the material on http://ae911truth.org ?

    His alleged fence-sitting position makes no sense 15 years after the event.

    But if you look at his questions, it's all misdirection. Squid ink strategy.

    • Replies: @Erebus Hi,

    His alleged fence-sitting position makes no sense 15 years after the event.
    Well, quite a few people I know spent the first dozen or so of those believing that the official story is broadly true. Propaganda works. You can fool most of the people most of the time, so giving someone the benefit of the doubt has been my practice.
    But if you look at his questions, it's all misdirection. Squid ink strategy.
    Yeah, his response to me made that plain, but I really liked the touch that he's apparently friends with the ephemeral Betty Ong's dead parents! I'm guessing, of course, that he's alluding to the mysterious Betty-with-zero-life-history-Ong. He may have been referring to the parents of Madeline Sweeney, who's "phone call" from the same flight so contradicted Ong's that it makes one wonder if they were on the same flight, or to one of the other (stabbed) attendants.

    Uno absurdo dato, infinita sequuntur
    One absurdity being given, an infinite number follow.

    I'm dismayed to see this sort of stupidity serving to obscure the important theme Mr. Unz is exploring in his American Pravda series. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  298. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 7:09 pm GMT • 200 Words @Rurik
    Of course we all grieve for Ursula.
    it's not about Ursula

    you can hate her guts and her viewpoint all you want, but do you really want people put in prison for expressing opinions you find abhorrent?

    for asking questions you don't want asked?

    perhaps so, if I get the tone of your comment

    free speech is intended to protect the speech we all most dislike, or it's not free speech at all, is it? It's just speech that you or I consider acceptable, and I for one don't want anyone being the arbiter of acceptable speech or questions. Fuck no! Not Jews, not Nazis, not rightwing religious nuts or politically correct SJWs or anyone else, thankyouverymuch.

    as for her questions about the Holocaust, we already know there were no human soap factories or human tattoo skin lampshades. These were blood libels spread against the German people to try to justify the genocidal horrors that were visited upon millions of German civilians after the war was over. They were an evil people are deserved it all. Exactly like what the Nazis were saying about the Jews.

    My agenda is the truth. If it's true that the Germans were running extermination camps, like Eisenhower ran for German POWs after the war was over, then I want to know about them, and their scope and purpose. I want to know the truth about it all, come what may, and I certainly don't want little old ladies put in prison, (no matter what their views are), under any circumstances. I can't even comprehend the moral cowardice of a society (or individuals) that would tolerate such a thing.

    Germany is suffering women being raped in the streets by savages, but they save their prison space for her

    http://carolynyeager.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/ursula%20haverbeck.jpg?itok=GI4bbz9C

    and why? Because she's asking questions they don't want people asking

    you can hate her guts and her viewpoint all you want, but do you really want people put in prison for expressing opinions you find abhorrent?

    That's a rhetorical question, isn't it? The guy you're addressing is a vicious Zio-fascist scumbag. He takes delight in somebody like Ursula Haverbeck being imprisoned for challenging Zionist power. Look at what he wrote.

    It's funny, because in his role here as professional disinfo agent, it would probably make more sense for him to express sympathy with Ursula Haverbeck and agree with us that her imprisonment is unjust and so on, in order to build a rapport and try to come across as even somewhat reasonable. But the thing is that the morally degenerate zio scumbag can't help gloating over the fact that the Zionist power structure manage to imprison this little old lady.

    Scumbags will be scumbags.

    This kind of thing does remind one of the kind of people you're dealing with here. That little degenerate bastard Sam Shama is exactly like this too, you know.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    That's a rhetorical question, isn't it?
    ;)
    It's funny, because in his role here as professional disinfo agent, it would probably make more sense for him to express sympathy with Ursula Haverbeck and agree with us that her imprisonment is unjust and so on, in order to build a rapport and try to come across as even somewhat reasonable. But the thing is that the morally degenerate zio scumbag can't help gloating over the fact that the Zionist power structure manage to imprison this little old lady.
    extremely salient insight JR
    Scumbags will be scumbags.
    I confess I (of all people!) sometimes wince at your colorful language, but then sometimes there's just no other way to put it!
    That little degenerate bastard Sam Shama is exactly like this too, you know.
    well, I try to hold out hope for our pal Sam, but then a while back it was abundantly clear that Sam wanted some kind of harm to come to me when I expressed sympathy for this same little old grandma who the PTB were crushing with an iron Zio-boot for her plucky temerity

    Remember that Sam? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  299. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 7:22 pm GMT • 100 Words @Incitatus "...you have 2700 or so architects and engineers who have been willing to put their name on a petition calling for a new investigation on this basis - that the official story is simply not physically possible."

    Great point! 2700! Something must be fishy.

    But how many licensed architects and engineers are there in the US? Turns out there's 105,042 + 822,575 = 927,617 (source: AIA & NCEES). 2,700 represents 0.29% of the total number of US architects and engineers. That means 99.71% haven't called for a new investigation.

    But wait! Turns out Mr. Gage's petition is signed not only by licensed US architects and engineers, but also by the 'degreed' (without licenses they're not legally able to call themselves architects or engineers). It gets even better - many of the signatories are foreign (UK. Sri Lanka, Canada, Bolivia, Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands, Colombia, etc). Nothing wrong with that, of course. The more, the merrier

    But the base increases yet again. Linkedin estimates 3,600,000 licensed architects on earth. If the proportion of architects to engineers is similar to the US ratio 28,191,295 engineers exist, bringing the combined total to 31,791,295 architects and engineers worldwide.

    2,700 is 0.0085% of 31,791,295. In other words, 99.9915% of worldwide architects and engineers haven't called for a new investigation. Are they part of a conspiracy?

    ae911truth? Maybe Richard Gage enjoys having a nice tax-exempt slush fund for travel and lecture fees. Maybe he enjoys gadfly celebrity his practice never delivered.

    But how many licensed architects and engineers are there in the US? Turns out there's 105,042 + 822,575 = 927,617 (source: AIA & NCEES). 2,700 represents 0.29% of the total number of US architects and engineers. That means 99.71% haven't called for a new investigation.

    Ah, the nostalgia, I haven't heard this particular shit eater argument for a while. Yeah, 99.71% of the architects and engineers in the USA DID NOT sign the petition so therefore they all believe the official story.

    So, if a million people march on Washington tomorrow demanding the end to all the wars, that doesn't mean anything either, because 300+ million did not march, and therefore, they are in favor of all the wars! Obviously!

    Hey, how's the weather in Tel Aviv? Hot as hell, eh? Have they put air conditioning in your office yet?

    • Replies: @Incitatus How do you type confined in a straightjacket - do you hold a pen in your mouth and peck letters one-by-one? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  300. Rurik says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 7:38 pm GMT • 200 Words @Jonathan Revusky
    you can hate her guts and her viewpoint all you want, but do you really want people put in prison for expressing opinions you find abhorrent?
    That's a rhetorical question, isn't it? The guy you're addressing is a vicious Zio-fascist scumbag. He takes delight in somebody like Ursula Haverbeck being imprisoned for challenging Zionist power. Look at what he wrote.

    It's funny, because in his role here as professional disinfo agent, it would probably make more sense for him to express sympathy with Ursula Haverbeck and agree with us that her imprisonment is unjust and so on, in order to build a rapport and try to come across as even somewhat reasonable. But the thing is that the morally degenerate zio scumbag can't help gloating over the fact that the Zionist power structure manage to imprison this little old lady.

    Scumbags will be scumbags.

    This kind of thing does remind one of the kind of people you're dealing with here. That little degenerate bastard Sam Shama is exactly like this too, you know.

    That's a rhetorical question, isn't it?

    ;)

    It's funny, because in his role here as professional disinfo agent, it would probably make more sense for him to express sympathy with Ursula Haverbeck and agree with us that her imprisonment is unjust and so on, in order to build a rapport and try to come across as even somewhat reasonable. But the thing is that the morally degenerate zio scumbag can't help gloating over the fact that the Zionist power structure manage to imprison this little old lady.

    extremely salient insight JR

    Scumbags will be scumbags.

    I confess I (of all people!) sometimes wince at your colorful language, but then sometimes there's just no other way to put it!

    That little degenerate bastard Sam Shama is exactly like this too, you know.

    well, I try to hold out hope for our pal Sam, but then a while back it was abundantly clear that Sam wanted some kind of harm to come to me when I expressed sympathy for this same little old grandma who the PTB were crushing with an iron Zio-boot for her plucky temerity

    Remember that Sam?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama Oh Hello Rurik
    Ursula Haverbeck, the lovely little granny which has a rap sheet longer than your arm?

    According to Agence France-Presse

    Haverbeck is a notorious extremist who was once chaired a far-right training center shut down in 2008 for spreading Nazi propaganda, according to AFP. She has a rap sheet and a suspended sentence for sedition.

    The Zio-boot? You mean this one?
    http://www.unz.com/article/what-obama-should-have-told-bibi/#comment-1239335

    btw I see Revusky getting into his usual foamy-mouth-eyeballs-spinning routine.

    Jonathan,

    fear not your hunger, it will be sated; coprophagic services are sought after at Upper Manhattan's recycling plant. What hour shall I ask them to contact you? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  301. Incitatus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 7:43 pm GMT • 300 Words @Rurik
    Of course we all grieve for Ursula.
    it's not about Ursula

    you can hate her guts and her viewpoint all you want, but do you really want people put in prison for expressing opinions you find abhorrent?

    for asking questions you don't want asked?

    perhaps so, if I get the tone of your comment

    free speech is intended to protect the speech we all most dislike, or it's not free speech at all, is it? It's just speech that you or I consider acceptable, and I for one don't want anyone being the arbiter of acceptable speech or questions. Fuck no! Not Jews, not Nazis, not rightwing religious nuts or politically correct SJWs or anyone else, thankyouverymuch.

    as for her questions about the Holocaust, we already know there were no human soap factories or human tattoo skin lampshades. These were blood libels spread against the German people to try to justify the genocidal horrors that were visited upon millions of German civilians after the war was over. They were an evil people are deserved it all. Exactly like what the Nazis were saying about the Jews.

    My agenda is the truth. If it's true that the Germans were running extermination camps, like Eisenhower ran for German POWs after the war was over, then I want to know about them, and their scope and purpose. I want to know the truth about it all, come what may, and I certainly don't want little old ladies put in prison, (no matter what their views are), under any circumstances. I can't even comprehend the moral cowardice of a society (or individuals) that would tolerate such a thing.

    Germany is suffering women being raped in the streets by savages, but they save their prison space for her

    http://carolynyeager.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/ursula%20haverbeck.jpg?itok=GI4bbz9C

    and why? Because she's asking questions they don't want people asking

    I cherish free speech. But I don't live in a country that twice experienced the catastrophic results of demagogic incitement. I trust Germans know what they're doing, but I note your concern. And your angst over suffering. But isn't it a very selective angst?

    " even if you take them at their word, the Holocaust was done as humanely as it's was humanly possible to kill people. Sort of like the Soylent Green euthanasia scene the violins were playing as they were handed a towel to take a 'shower', and then the death was as benign as could be arranged under the circumstances. And that was their worst case scenario of the gas chambers as I remember them being shown to us as children. Compare that to Dresden, which is undisputed and was as calculatedly cruel and sadistic as it was possible to imagine. And then some."

    " and yet it's the Germans who everyone condemns for inhumanity."

    -Rurik 28dec15 #205

    http://www.unz.com/article/no-matter-who-becomes-president-israel-wins/#comments

    Why, like most who mourn Dresden 1944, don't you ever mention Warsaw Sep 1939? The same number of civilians – 20,000-25,000 – were killed. Or how about Warsaw Aug 1944 (150,000-200,000 civilians killed)? In fact, you could say Germans pioneered civilian killing (shelling of Paris 1870-71, bombing London in 1915, the Condor Legion and Guernica 1937, etc). They were very good at it. You never mention it. Does only German blood count? Or do you simply want to use Dresden to legitimize Nazi aggression?

    I confess I'm also puzzled by your preoccupation for the Lebensborn – most unusual for a Norseman.

    btw. You aren't by any chance Anders Behring Brevik blogging away in your prison cell?

    • Replies: @Rurik I was reading your quote and thinking to myself, wow, what insight and pure, raw humanity from this mystery writer..

    until I saw it sourced ;)

    Does only German blood count?
    no sir, but you see for me, even German blood counts, especially when it's women and children, who're being burned alive to sate the insatiable hatred of a monster

    anyone who burns women and children alive for the fun of it and out of sheer tribal hatred, rather than as a military and existential imperative, is a monster in my book

    if the Nazis burned women and children alive for the fun of it, then by God I tell you I would condemn them with all of my breath, I swear it. But they didn't do that. It was the Zio-West that did that, (just as they did at Waco, TX) and I find that difficult to live with. Sort of the way the Norwegians treated the children of Lebensborn; monstrous and impossible to justify. So yes, every single German soldier who considered the women of the occupied countries as their rightful booty deserved to die, and happily, many of them did. But then to blame the children of these trysts for the crimes of their fathers, is a stain that will besmirch the character of the Norwegian people for generations. , @SolontoCroesus

    Why . . . don't you ever mention Warsaw Sep 1939? The same number of civilians – 20,000-25,000 – were killed. Or how about Warsaw Aug 1944 (150,000-200,000 civilians killed)?
    1. estimates of Dresden dead are tendentious
    2. not all those killed in Warsaw were Jews: only Jews count. If non-Jews swell the kill-count, that diverts attention from teh eternal victim ©
    3. Real he-man Jews deride Warsaw Jews for not being sufficiently he-man. Best not to talk about it.
    4. Auschwitz has a more established brand.
    5. No gas chambers in Warsaw. Epic fail. , @Jonathan Revusky Hi, Ziofascist scumbag.
    I cherish free speech.
    LOL. "I'm not a vindictive person but the old bitch does deserve to rot in prison. And I hope she dies and burns in hell."
    But I don't live in a country that twice experienced the catastrophic results of demagogic incitement. I trust Germans know what they're doing
    Ah, I see you've thought about this and realize that imprisoning 87-year-old ladies is absolutely necessary to prevent the rise of the 4th Reich, eh?

    But I wonder about this.... is imprisoning little old ladies like this likely to reduce antisemitism? Or is it more likely to increase it?

    Also, wouldn't you be concerned that imprisoning somebody for saying something, with absolutely no attempt to rebut what the person is saying, might cause people to think that the person is being imprisoned for telling the truth?

    What do you think? Have you thought about any of this at all?

    Well, of course not. You're a shit eater. You never actually think about anything! But you could start.... it's not illegal... YET! , @utu If 20,000-25,000 civilians were killed during siege of Warsaw in 1939 then it is easy to believe that 100,000-125,000 were killed in Dresden in 1945. It suffices to scale up the Warsaw number by the number of sorties and payload Allies had over Dresden in comparison to what Germany had over Warsaw in 1939. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  302. Incitatus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 7:52 pm GMT @Jonathan Revusky
    But how many licensed architects and engineers are there in the US? Turns out there's 105,042 + 822,575 = 927,617 (source: AIA & NCEES). 2,700 represents 0.29% of the total number of US architects and engineers. That means 99.71% haven't called for a new investigation.
    Ah, the nostalgia, I haven't heard this particular shit eater argument for a while. Yeah, 99.71% of the architects and engineers in the USA DID NOT sign the petition so therefore they all believe the official story.

    So, if a million people march on Washington tomorrow demanding the end to all the wars, that doesn't mean anything either, because 300+ million did not march, and therefore, they are in favor of all the wars! Obviously!

    Hey, how's the weather in Tel Aviv? Hot as hell, eh? Have they put air conditioning in your office yet?

    How do you type confined in a straightjacket – do you hold a pen in your mouth and peck letters one-by-one?

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  303. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 7:59 pm GMT • 900 Words @Boris
    I mean, you obviously don't understand the difference between a necessary and a sufficient condition.
    Still embarrassing yourself.
    he was declined after exhibiting difficulty controlling and landing a single-engine Cessna 172.[25]
    Here's the citation for that claim:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20020405020924/http://www.newsday.com/ny-usflight232380680sep23.story

    The guy that wouldn't let Hanjour rent a plane w/o more lessons also said this:

    Despite Hanjour's poor reviews, he did have some ability as a pilot, said Bernard of Freeway Airport. "There's no doubt in my mind that once that [hijacked jet] got going, he could have pointed that plane at a building and hit it," he said.
    So your theory collapses. Unless the guy lied about this part, but told the truth about Hanjour not being able to control the Cessna with much skill? You are dumb enough to believe that, so...

    Well, as a matter of fact, I take expert testimony on questions seriously.
    Well, so you take Bernard seriously then? Or, wait, he's a government stooge who accidentally told the truth once? Shape-shifter?
    If a controlled demolition specialist in Holland, Danny Jowenko, when shown the footage of WTC 7 imploding says that this is definitely a controlled demolition, it stands to reason that it is a controlled demolition!
    Here's a different expert's view--an expert who actually examined the evidence:

    http://www.implosionworld.com/Article-WTC%20STUDY%208-06%20w%20clarif%20as%20of%209-8-06%20.pdf

    So is he (Circle one^):
    Government stooge
    Shapeshifter
    Lizard man
    Hologram

    such as the people at NIST who claim that building 7 imploded perfectly symmetrically from uncontrolled fires
    This is another lie. I already posted a summary of what they said.

    I really don't care what your response is. I know it will probably be more insanely stupid than the last.


    ^Disclaimer for morons: Don't actually circle it on your monitor.

    Well, so you take Bernard seriously then?

    Look, I wasn't there, but the incident, as recounted, seems to be true and it happened 3 weeks before 9/11, NOT years before, as you were trying to claim. To recap

    Hani Hanjour tried to rent a single-engine Cessna and a flight instructor went up with him and said the guy did not have the skill to fly that plane. The single-engine Cessna.

    Now, it is claimed that 3 weeks later and Hani can fly the big Boeing in a maneuver that professional pilots with thousands of hours have said they could not do. Just to focus this, here is what the cockpit of a Boeing 757 looks like:

    https://www.google.es/search?q=boeing+757+cockpit&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA-8bMu4XPAhVLuBQKHaXbA_oQ_AUICCgB&biw=1024&bih=483

    The guy that wouldn't let Hanjour rent a plane w/o more lessons also said this:

    Despite Hanjour's poor reviews, he did have some ability as a pilot, said Bernard of Freeway Airport. "There's no doubt in my mind that once that [hijacked jet] got going, he could have pointed that plane at a building and hit it," he said.

    Well, c'mon, the guy doubtless came under pressure to say that the guy could have done what they said he did. But look, obviously, if he evaluated the guy as unable to control a Cessna in August, the guy couldn't suddenly fly a big Boeing in September! And this business that he "pointed that plane at a building and hit it", that is not what allegedly happened with the Pentagon flight. The plane allegedly flew this really incredible 270 degree descending loop and, in the final stretch flew at treetop level into the exact part of the Pentagon that was hit. And as I said, you can look at the Pilots for 9/11 Truth and see that there are professional pilots with thousands of hours flying these Boeing airliners who say they could not fly that maneuver. So the guy supposedly was flying one of these big planes for the first (and last) time in his life and successfully carried off this maneuver. It's completely ridiculous bullshit, but when you're a shit eater, it's like "mmm, yum, yum".

    And really, you know, this is such an absurd argument to be having. Okay, it's obvious that if somebody can't really control a Cessna in August of 2001, he can't do some top gun maneuver in a big Boeing in September of 2001. But it doesn't even matter. The flight didn't even take place! Or certainly, at the very least, there is not a shred of evidence that any Boeing airliner crashed into the Pentagon anyway.

    So, finally, whether Hani Hanjour could have flown the plane in that maneuver or not hardly matters. The overall narrative just has so many problems in it that, even if you concede a given point just for the sake of argument, like assume that Hani Hanjour really could fly a Boeing 757 in this elaborate maneuver only 3 weeks after demonstrating an inability to control a Cessna, it still doesn't matter because there is very strong reason to believe that the flight did not even take place.

    Here's a different expert's view–an expert who actually examined the evidence:

    http://www.implosionworld.com/Article-WTC%20STUDY%208-06%20w%20clarif%20as%20of%209-8-06%20.pdf

    I hadn't seen that one before, but a quick googling shows that there are at least a couple of extensive rebuttals to this article. For example, here:

    http://www.911research.wtc7.net/reviews/blanchard/index.html

    and here:

    http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=5126

    Now, I lack the expertise to be certain about these things, but I would just make the point that if you googled up this Blanchard stuff, then you would easily find the above-linked rebuttals as well. But since the rebuttals don't support what you want to believe, you just don't mention them.

    It's like there are phone calls, I mean testimony that somebody got a phone call, and then that supports the official story, you say that is strong proof but if I point to testimony where Atta's father got a phone call the day after 9/11 from his son, you immediately say Atta's father was lying.

    Your whole thing is just always going to be to cherry pick things based on what you want to believe. That's a completely corrupted intellectual process.

    The reason I am quite certain that the official narrative is untrue is that there just really is such an accumulation of problems with the story that it really just can't be true. The Hani Hanjour thing is like just one of literally hundreds of glitches in the story, that the guy they say flew that plane obviously did not have the skills. That the flight instructor in question, the Bernard guy then claimed that he did, you can see that he must have been pressured to say that. If you can't fly a Cessna, you can't fly a Boeing 757. And besides, the conditions under which this supposedly happened, where the guy had just murdered the pilot and taken over the plane and his adrenaline would be sky high and he sits down and, flying this plane for the very first time, calmly maneuvers the plane in this 270 degree looping descent.

    This just didn't happen. There is no photographic or video evidence at the alleged crash site that is consistent with a Boeing 757 having crashed there! This is all just a constructed fiction. Anybody who studies this in any kind of intellectually honest way surely comes to that conclusion.

    The only way you can believe this stuff is if you have this kind of intense emotional need to believe it. You look at what they are saying happened cold-bloodedly and it is really just glaringly obviously that it's all total bullshit.

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  304. Rurik says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 8:17 pm GMT • 200 Words @Incitatus I cherish free speech. But I don't live in a country that twice experienced the catastrophic results of demagogic incitement. I trust Germans know what they're doing, but I note your concern. And your angst over suffering. But isn't it a very selective angst?
    "...even if you take them at their word, the Holocaust was done as humanely as it's was humanly possible to kill people. Sort of like the Soylent Green euthanasia scene the violins were playing as they were handed a towel to take a 'shower', and then the death was as benign as could be arranged under the circumstances. And that was their worst case scenario of the gas chambers as I remember them being shown to us as children. Compare that to Dresden, which is undisputed and was as calculatedly cruel and sadistic as it was possible to imagine. And then some."

    "...and yet it's the Germans who everyone condemns for inhumanity."

    -Rurik 28dec15 #205

    http://www.unz.com/article/no-matter-who-becomes-president-israel-wins/#comments

    Why, like most who mourn Dresden 1944, don't you ever mention Warsaw Sep 1939? The same number of civilians - 20,000-25,000 - were killed. Or how about Warsaw Aug 1944 (150,000-200,000 civilians killed)? In fact, you could say Germans pioneered civilian killing (shelling of Paris 1870-71, bombing London in 1915, the Condor Legion and Guernica 1937, etc). They were very good at it. You never mention it. Does only German blood count? Or do you simply want to use Dresden to legitimize Nazi aggression?

    I confess I'm also puzzled by your preoccupation for the Lebensborn - most unusual for a Norseman.

    btw. You aren't by any chance Anders Behring Brevik blogging away in your prison cell?

    I was reading your quote and thinking to myself, wow, what insight and pure, raw humanity from this mystery writer..

    until I saw it sourced ;)

    Does only German blood count?

    no sir, but you see for me, even German blood counts, especially when it's women and children, who're being burned alive to sate the insatiable hatred of a monster

    anyone who burns women and children alive for the fun of it and out of sheer tribal hatred, rather than as a military and existential imperative, is a monster in my book

    if the Nazis burned women and children alive for the fun of it, then by God I tell you I would condemn them with all of my breath, I swear it. But they didn't do that. It was the Zio-West that did that, (just as they did at Waco, TX) and I find that difficult to live with. Sort of the way the Norwegians treated the children of Lebensborn; monstrous and impossible to justify. So yes, every single German soldier who considered the women of the occupied countries as their rightful booty deserved to die, and happily, many of them did. But then to blame the children of these trysts for the crimes of their fathers, is a stain that will besmirch the character of the Norwegian people for generations.

    • Replies: @Incitatus
    "if the Nazis burned women and children alive for the fun of it, then by God I tell you I would condemn them with all of my breath, I swear it. But they didn't do that."
    Well, Rurik, here's your chance to condemn them:

    "...starting at 0800 on 25 September [1939], Luftwaffe bombers under the command of Major Wolfram Freiherr von Richthofen conducted the largest air raid ever seen by that time, dropping 560 tons of high explosive bombs and 72 tons of incendiary bombs, in coordination with heavy artillery shelling by Army units."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Warsaw_in_World_War_II

    Note the "72 tons of incendiary bombs." 20,000-25,000 civilians died. Surprised? Later on, beginning August 1944 the Nazis really got busy. By January 1945 they'd leveled 85% of the city and killed another 150,000-200,000 civilians.

    How about Rotterdam May 1940? 884 civilians killed, 85,000 left homeless:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotterdam_Blitz

    How about Guernica April 1937? They bombed it on market day, when packed with civilians. They used incendiaries. 170-300 civilians died. The city was largely destroyed:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Guernica

    How about Lidice June 1942? 173 men executed on the spot. 203 women and 105 children taken to concentration camps (four pregnant women were first forced to have abortions). The village was leveled. The Nazis killed all the animals and even dug up the remains in the cemetery!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice_massacre

    How about Oradour-sur-Glane Jun 1944? 642 civilians murdered and -wait for it - women and children deliberately burned to death.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane_massacre

    There are other examples. Oh those poor, poor Nazis.

    Don't forget your promise to "condemn them [Nazis] with all of my breath." Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  305. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 8:42 pm GMT

    Oh, man, you guys are way too close to figuring it out. You are so getting chemtrailed this weekend.

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  306. Anonymous says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 9:39 pm GMT

    I've at least skimmed through every comment on this post, and have to lament the huge drop in quality as the thread progressed. The last 100 or so comments are embarrassing and likely to put off anyone with an interest in the subject at hand.

    • Replies: @Boris Stupid conspiracies are par for the course for Unz.com. , @Jonathan Revusky
    I've at least skimmed through every comment on this post, and have to lament the huge drop in quality as the thread progressed.
    Well, what to do? There is some amazing stuff here. This Boris shit eater, I asked him to outline the strongest evidence available for the official story on 9/11. He told me, among a few other things, that Mohammed Atta had a plane ticket!

    Of course he hijacked a plane and flew it into a building at the behest of a bearded religious fanatic in Afghanistan! HE HAD A PLANE TICKET, DAMMIT!!!! Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  307. Erebus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 9:47 pm GMT • 200 Words @Jonathan Revusky
    Not to answer for The Great Revusky,
    LOL. Hi, don't worry that you are encroaching on my territory. It actually gets very very tiresome to argue with these shit eaters. So if you want to lend a hand, that's just great.

    I don't suppose it's lost on you that this "Incitatus" is some sort of professional disinfo agent. He's coming in to pick up the slack because "Boris" started seriously self-destructing. He's got some basic troll act that he's open-minded and so forth and just wants to know the truth...

    But, of course, the whole thing is ridiculous. Here we are, 15 years after the event, and the guy is representing that he really wants to get at the truth. Well, why didn't he read a single book on the topic in the last decade plus? Or why didn't he ever look at any of the material on http://ae911truth.org ?

    His alleged fence-sitting position makes no sense 15 years after the event.

    But if you look at his questions, it's all misdirection. Squid ink strategy.

    Hi,

    His alleged fence-sitting position makes no sense 15 years after the event.

    Well, quite a few people I know spent the first dozen or so of those believing that the official story is broadly true. Propaganda works. You can fool most of the people most of the time, so giving someone the benefit of the doubt has been my practice.

    But if you look at his questions, it's all misdirection. Squid ink strategy.

    Yeah, his response to me made that plain, but I really liked the touch that he's apparently friends with the ephemeral Betty Ong's dead parents! I'm guessing, of course, that he's alluding to the mysterious Betty-with-zero-life-history-Ong. He may have been referring to the parents of Madeline Sweeney, who's "phone call" from the same flight so contradicted Ong's that it makes one wonder if they were on the same flight, or to one of the other (stabbed) attendants.

    Uno absurdo dato, infinita sequuntur
    One absurdity being given, an infinite number follow.

    I'm dismayed to see this sort of stupidity serving to obscure the important theme Mr. Unz is exploring in his American Pravda series.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    Well, quite a few people I know spent the first dozen or so of those believing that the official story is broadly true. Propaganda works. You can fool most of the people most of the time, so giving someone the benefit of the doubt has been my practice.
    Yes, that's a good point. It actually took me about a decade to get to the point of just saying openly that the official 9/11 story was total crap.

    So you make a correct point. A correct general point. But in this specific case, I think there were warning signs from the get-go that this "Incitatus" is not some honest person seeking the truth. These guys show up and it's like they've got their schtick. They start saying they are open-minded and seeking the truth but then it becomes apparent that they have a list of talking points that they are trying to put out there just to confuse the matter.

    There is a great piece by the Saker today. I suppose you've likely read it.

    Yeah, his response to me made that plain, but I really liked the touch that he's apparently friends with the ephemeral Betty Ong's dead parents! I'm guessing, of course, that he's alluding to the mysterious Betty-with-zero-life-history-Ong. He may have been referring to the parents of Madeline Sweeney,
    It's actually more likely that he's acquainted with the person who invented all these characters! , @Incitatus
    "I really liked the touch that he's apparently friends with the ephemeral Betty Ong's dead parents!"
    Nice try. Try Thomas Roger, father of twenty-four year old Jean D. Roger.
    "I'm guessing, of course..."
    You seem to do a lot of that. No answers to simple questions. Just crackpot web-links and looney-tune CGI plane theories you can't explain. "The Great Revusky" seems equally barren. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  308. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 10:42 pm GMT • 400 Words

    Well, c'mon, the guy doubtless came under pressure to say that the guy could have done what they said he did.

    You keep making things up.

    if he evaluated the guy as unable to control a Cessna in August, the guy couldn't suddenly fly a big Boeing in September!

    Huh? His evaluation included landing. But yeah, sure they guy is lying about the part you hate but telling the truth about the part you like. Is there any better evidence that you are a complete moronic hack?

    The plane allegedly flew this really incredible 270 degree descending loop

    Yeah, professional pilots think Hanjour could have done it:

    http://www.salon.com/2006/05/19/askthepilot186/

    Reality: As I've explained in at least one prior column, Hani Hanjour's flying was hardly the show-quality demonstration often described. It was exceptional only in its recklessness. If anything, his loops and turns and spirals above the nation's capital revealed him to be exactly the shitty pilot he by all accounts was. To hit the Pentagon squarely he needed only a bit of luck, and he got it, possibly with help from the 757's autopilot. Striking a stationary object - even a large one like the Pentagon - at high speed and from a steep angle is very difficult. To make the job easier, he came in obliquely, tearing down light poles as he roared across the Pentagon's lawn.

    "The hijackers required only the shallow understanding of the aircraft," agrees Ken Hertz, an airline pilot rated on the 757/767. "In much the same way that a person needn't be an experienced physician in order to perform CPR or set a broken bone."

    That sentiment is echoed by Joe d'Eon, airline pilot and host of the "Fly With Me" podcast series. "It's the difference between a doctor and a butcher," says d'Eon.

    There is no photographic or video evidence at the alleged crash site that is consistent with a Boeing 757 having crashed there!

    lol you are one of the idiots who think a missile hit the Pentagon? I should have seen that coming. Do you believe the CGI people too? And the nuke guys?

    What's really galling is that fuckers like you malign the victims and suggest they are in on the conspiracy. It's not bad enough that they get their lives cut short, nope. You guys have to take a shit on their ashes too.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    if he evaluated the guy as unable to control a Cessna in August, the guy couldn't suddenly fly a big Boeing in September!
    Huh? His evaluation included landing.
    Did you come up with this yourself or is this some talking point that was just handed to you? YOu can read what was said, but the problem was not solely that Hani Hanjour could not land the plane. He could not really control the plane in flight. I'm not a pilot myself, but looking at this as a generalist, the upshot of it clearly seems to be that that Hani Hanjour did not possess even elementary plane flying skills for a small plane in August of 2001. And then in September of 2001 carried out a maneuver in a big Boeing jet that would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for someone with years of experience.

    But I was thinking about this... there were four or five Arab hijackers in the plane according to the story. How would they even know which one of them flew the plane? Anybody who made a phone call wouldn't know the names of the various hijackers, would they? So they just tell a story and there's no proof whatsoever of the story anyway... And then a shit eater like you, rather than just admit the obvious, that there isn't any proof of this aspect of the story, you just start making up shit to back up the story. Like you start by trying to claim that the incident where he couldn't fly a Cessna was years before 9/11. No, it was 3 weeks before 9/11!

    lol you are one of the idiots who think a missile hit the Pentagon?
    Well, I don't know. What would be idiotic about thinking that? All I said was that there is not a shred of evidence that a Boeing airliner really hit the Pentagon. At least I've never seen any.
    What's really galling is that fuckers like you malign the victims
    Oh, I'm maligning the victims, am I? And that really bothers you.... Wanting to get at the truth of what really happened is to disrespect the victims...

    I can't believe you came up with that shit yourself. You've got a list of talking points that you're running through, right? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  309. L.K says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 10:45 pm GMT • 400 Words @Rurik
    Of course we all grieve for Ursula.
    it's not about Ursula

    you can hate her guts and her viewpoint all you want, but do you really want people put in prison for expressing opinions you find abhorrent?

    for asking questions you don't want asked?

    perhaps so, if I get the tone of your comment

    free speech is intended to protect the speech we all most dislike, or it's not free speech at all, is it? It's just speech that you or I consider acceptable, and I for one don't want anyone being the arbiter of acceptable speech or questions. Fuck no! Not Jews, not Nazis, not rightwing religious nuts or politically correct SJWs or anyone else, thankyouverymuch.

    as for her questions about the Holocaust, we already know there were no human soap factories or human tattoo skin lampshades. These were blood libels spread against the German people to try to justify the genocidal horrors that were visited upon millions of German civilians after the war was over. They were an evil people are deserved it all. Exactly like what the Nazis were saying about the Jews.

    My agenda is the truth. If it's true that the Germans were running extermination camps, like Eisenhower ran for German POWs after the war was over, then I want to know about them, and their scope and purpose. I want to know the truth about it all, come what may, and I certainly don't want little old ladies put in prison, (no matter what their views are), under any circumstances. I can't even comprehend the moral cowardice of a society (or individuals) that would tolerate such a thing.

    Germany is suffering women being raped in the streets by savages, but they save their prison space for her

    http://carolynyeager.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/ursula%20haverbeck.jpg?itok=GI4bbz9C

    and why? Because she's asking questions they don't want people asking

    Well, Rurik,

    You are discussing these issues with an obvious troll, 'incitatus', a piece of filth who is here to spread disinformation & propaganda & who obviously does not care one bit about truth or free speech. Remember that other scumbag, 'iffen', who hoped for European style censorship to be applied in the US?

    These cretins are so obvious.

    No, Rurik, the National Socialists did NOT run extermination camps.

    Do u still have doubts?

    As Prof.Faurisson said, on the intellectual level, the revisionists have already won.
    It is just that people ain't allowed to know it in fact, people are not allowed to even know there is a debate on the holohoax.

    Why, Rurik, do I say the holocau$t is a monstrous Hoax?

    As Prof.T.Dalton wrote:

    There are, in fact, three essential elements to the event called the Holocaust:
    (1) intention to mass murder the Jews, by Hitler and the Nazi elite;
    (2) the use of gas chambers(the extermination camps & gas vans); and
    (3) the 6 million deaths.

    If any one of these three should undergo substantial revision, then, technically speaking, we no longer have "The Holocaust"-at least, not in any meaningful sense. (Broadly speaking, of course, any mass fatality is a holocaust.) Holocaust revisionism contends that, not one, but all three of these points are grossly in error, and thus that "The Holocaust," as such, did not occur. Obviously, this is not to deny that a tragedy happened to the Jews, nor that many thousands died, directly and indirectly, as a result of the war. But the conventional account is an extreme exaggeration.

    Most people are led to believe – I was one of them – in regards to the 'holocau$t', that there is abundant proof of the alleged crime, as described above.
    This is absolutely NOT THE CASE.

    In fact, many holocaust 'historians', I call them quacks, have actually admitted the near total lack of material and documentary evidence.
    There is, as the revisionist side has shown, an abundance of evidence refuting the official dossier, which is basically atrocity propaganda on steroids.

    One good book that covers all bases in a more accessible format is "Lectures on the Holocaust
    Controversial Issues Cross Examined" by Germar Rudolf.
    http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/15-loth.pdf

    http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?main_page=1

    • Replies: @Rurik Hey L.K.,
    holocau$t is a monstrous Hoax?
    I think you're right about some of the trolls here, or so it seems to me

    but this is the thing vis-a-vis the Holocau$t. I don't like calling the whole thing a hoax, because then it sort of looks like you're suggesting that NONE of any of that stuff happened, when I believe that it's clear that Jews (and many others) were systematically persecuted by the Nazis for being Jews, and not necessarily for any crimes they committed. Just like the Japanese in the US during the war. If they Japanese claimed there were gas chambers at the camps where they were held, then I think it would be fair and prudent to examine those claims for veracity, just as in the case of the Holocaust- where I don't think they had homicidal gas chambers for human extermination purposes. But that doesn't change the fact that many people perished in those camps, and many of them were innocent Jews, and if the Jews want to call that particular suffering a name to commemorate it, just like what the Japanese went through, then I don't see what's wrong with that per se.

    That it has become this momentous blood libel against the German people in particular and all Gentiles in general is just another testament to the power of the lobby.

    Controlling the world's banks and money supply and therefor all the media of consequence and all the major politicians (and publishing houses and courts and universities, etc..) has had an effect on things. The Eternal WarsⓊ being perhaps the most troublesome for the moment. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  310. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 10:50 pm GMT @Anonymous I've at least skimmed through every comment on this post, and have to lament the huge drop in quality as the thread progressed. The last 100 or so comments are embarrassing and likely to put off anyone with an interest in the subject at hand.

    Stupid conspiracies are par for the course for Unz.com.

    • Replies: @Anonymous It's not the conspiracies that are in themselves objectionable. I'm perfectly happy reading odd or otherwise rarely heard takes and refutations of varying quality, but when the comment section devolves into character swipes and cursing each other out in long, near-indecipherable diatribes, something of real value is lost.

    Make The Comment Section Great Again. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  311. SolontoCroesus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 10, 2016 at 10:57 pm GMT • 100 Words @Incitatus I cherish free speech. But I don't live in a country that twice experienced the catastrophic results of demagogic incitement. I trust Germans know what they're doing, but I note your concern. And your angst over suffering. But isn't it a very selective angst?
    "...even if you take them at their word, the Holocaust was done as humanely as it's was humanly possible to kill people. Sort of like the Soylent Green euthanasia scene the violins were playing as they were handed a towel to take a 'shower', and then the death was as benign as could be arranged under the circumstances. And that was their worst case scenario of the gas chambers as I remember them being shown to us as children. Compare that to Dresden, which is undisputed and was as calculatedly cruel and sadistic as it was possible to imagine. And then some."

    "...and yet it's the Germans who everyone condemns for inhumanity."

    -Rurik 28dec15 #205

    http://www.unz.com/article/no-matter-who-becomes-president-israel-wins/#comments

    Why, like most who mourn Dresden 1944, don't you ever mention Warsaw Sep 1939? The same number of civilians - 20,000-25,000 - were killed. Or how about Warsaw Aug 1944 (150,000-200,000 civilians killed)? In fact, you could say Germans pioneered civilian killing (shelling of Paris 1870-71, bombing London in 1915, the Condor Legion and Guernica 1937, etc). They were very good at it. You never mention it. Does only German blood count? Or do you simply want to use Dresden to legitimize Nazi aggression?

    I confess I'm also puzzled by your preoccupation for the Lebensborn - most unusual for a Norseman.

    btw. You aren't by any chance Anders Behring Brevik blogging away in your prison cell?

    Why . . . don't you ever mention Warsaw Sep 1939? The same number of civilians – 20,000-25,000 – were killed. Or how about Warsaw Aug 1944 (150,000-200,000 civilians killed)?

    1. estimates of Dresden dead are tendentious
    2. not all those killed in Warsaw were Jews: only Jews count. If non-Jews swell the kill-count, that diverts attention from teh eternal victim ©
    3. Real he-man Jews deride Warsaw Jews for not being sufficiently he-man. Best not to talk about it.
    4. Auschwitz has a more established brand.
    5. No gas chambers in Warsaw. Epic fail.

    • Replies: @James Kabala I think you misunderstood his points in every respect. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  312. Anonymous says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 12:24 am GMT • 100 Words @Boris Stupid conspiracies are par for the course for Unz.com.

    It's not the conspiracies that are in themselves objectionable. I'm perfectly happy reading odd or otherwise rarely heard takes and refutations of varying quality, but when the comment section devolves into character swipes and cursing each other out in long, near-indecipherable diatribes, something of real value is lost.

    Make The Comment Section Great Again.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz Your #335 Comment has a ihick yellow-brown rectangular frame around it. How did you achieve that? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  313. I. MALLIKARJUNA SHARMA says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 4:57 am GMT @CanSpeccy But if you really want a short, clear, definitive, irrefutable and conclusive debunking of 9/11 Truther theories here it is :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98

    What do you mean by debunking. It is in fact concisely and clearly explaining 9/11 Truth theories castigated as conspiracy theories by the criminal rulers.

    Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  314. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 8:50 am GMT • 100 Words @Rurik
    I ask specific questions.
    that's fine Incitatus, but all too often those roads lead down to obfuscation and conjecture. Like why did they implode building seven? The answer is we don't know. Probably because it was the control center for the whole operation, and they wanted to 'pull it' to erase all the evidence. Flight 92 was probably intended to hit building seven, as the pretext for its collapse, but then when it was shot down over Pennsylvania, they had to wing it.

    But that is all conjecture. Like asking someone who doesn't buy the Warren commission's findings, OK then 'why did they kill JFK'? Only the assassins know the answer to that question, just as only the people responsible for 911 could answer all the detailed queries.

    How did they rig the buildings surreptitiously? That is a whole gigantic side discussion, and people are having it, and we could spend hours debating all the minutia, but to what end?

    This we know. We know that building seven fell in a way that is incomprehensible based on simple physics. Indeed, impossible. We know that right away all the authorities set about having all the steel beams and forensic evidence of this stupendous and monumental and historic engineering failure, shipped off to China to be melted down and destroyed before any examination could be done by professionals. We're all supposed to just take the authorities word for it, even tho it appears even they conducted no investigation. Building seven wasn't even mentioned in the 911 commission report. Isn't that something?!

    But even more to the point Incitatus, is that several news organizations reported on the collapse of building seven before it happened. Did you know that?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOVnvFl5jZo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M26-B44qQIs

    now how could they have known this event was about to happen when even now no one can explain how or why that building came down. It's as if a news organization had reported that the first plane had hit the WTC tower 20 minutes before it did. Don't you think there'd be some legitimate curiosity as to how this news organization knew the first plane was going to hit, before it did? No?

    The collapse of building seven is a mystery, at the very least. An anomaly to all known laws of physics and structural engineering, even today no one can explain it any better than the magic bullet, that goes through Kennedy and then turns and hits Connelly a couple different times and then ends up pristine. But now imagine if a news organization had reported on the assassination of JFK 20 minutes before it happened.

    I ask you as just the latest person to assert on UR that something – in this case the collapse of WTC 7 – is "an anomaly to all known laws of physics and structural engineering" or similar wotds which plainly mean that such laws make the collapse without deliberate demolition impossible .*what are your qualifations to be taken seriously on the implications of the laws of physics and structural engineering*? I have dealt with a lot of expert witnesse and you don't sound like one of them,not even the dodgy ones that have to be exposed and evaluated in court every day. Indeed do you consider yourself competent to evaluate expert evidence on physics and structural engineering like a judge assisted by the questions of counsel? If so why? Try persuading your readers.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    I have dealt with a lot of expert witnesse and you don't sound like one of them,not even the dodgy ones that have to be exposed and evaluated in court every day.
    Hey, Wizard, I earlier asked you to outline the strongest available evidence for the official government story. You never provided any.

    Well, you claimed that the official story was proof of the official story. Your specific words were:

    Normally the onus of proof would be on those who dispute the findings of a well funded official inquiry to displace the presumption that it is substantially correct.
    In other words, the official story is simply presumed to be correct. That was here: http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-alexander-cockburn-and-the-british-spies/#comment-1549520

    So that tells us that your grasp of what constitutes evidence is actually fairly weak, but since you want to flaunt your lawyerly credentials, I thought to a question...

    Since your failure to outline any evidence for the official story, a commenter Boris has actualy tried to outline some. Among other things, he claims that the fact that Mohammed Atta had a plane ticket is evidence for the official story.

    In your professional opinion, as a lawyer, do you agree that this constitutes evidence for the official story? Yes or no? , @Rurik

    .*what are your qualifations to be taken seriously on the implications of the laws of physics and structural engineering*?
    I rest on my laurels wiz

    we've both participated on this site for some time now. In my case clearly and obviously in an attempt to get at the truth in all things. In your case, -to obfuscate the truth- about any issue you find inconvenient to the status quo- vis-a-vis the PTB. I believe this is obvious to everyone here who's been paying attention at all.

    What you do wiz, is scan these pages for any signs of some ingenuousness, and then you proceed to reel them into your web, with innocent sounding queries, and then when they're engaged in an exchange with you, you drop a manure wagon of legerdemain on their heads, obviously finding amusement in your own 'cleverness and artfulness'. I suppose you imagine you're being cagey, but to the rest of us you just come across as a mean-spirited, sadistic little prick.

    Now why, I ask you, would I ever feel the inclination so qualify myself to the likes of you, eh? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  315. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 8:56 am GMT @Anonymous It's not the conspiracies that are in themselves objectionable. I'm perfectly happy reading odd or otherwise rarely heard takes and refutations of varying quality, but when the comment section devolves into character swipes and cursing each other out in long, near-indecipherable diatribes, something of real value is lost.

    Make The Comment Section Great Again.

    Your #335 Comment has a ihick yellow-brown rectangular frame around it. How did you achieve that?

    • Replies: @Anonymous Can't speak with 100% certainty, but I believe it's a mark of distinction from the comment moderator. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  316. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 9:16 am GMT @CanSpeccy
    I don't remember anything about thermite reactions at least as such from 6th form Chemistry and now realise that aluminium is frequently at the core of thermite reactions, thereby lending support to the recently expounded theories of heating, and explosions, which would correct the official versions.
    Yes, either your ignorance is profound, or your intent to divert the discussion into a nonsensical channel is exposed.

    Bulk aluminum doesn't ignite in a building fire. According to one source, aluminum must be vaporized before it will burn and the boiling point of aluminum is 3,986 Farenheit, whereas the adiabatic flame temperature of Kerosene in air, at around 3597 Farenheit, is 400 degrees lower. Moreover, the jet fuel fires in the Twin Towers would likely have burned at considerably lower temperatures due to oxygen supply limitations.

    Aluminum burns readily in a thermitic compound comprising aluminum in a finely divided form intimately mixed with an oxidizer, usually iron oxide. In the process of combustion aluminum is oxidized, while the iron oxide is reduced to pure molten iron, which will be found in the reaction residue in the form of iron microspheres, just as were abundant in the ash collected in the vicinity of the Twin Towers.

    Among the best authorities on thermite is the National Institute of Standards, or NIST, the non-governmental body hired to "explain" the collapse of the Twin Towers and WTC 7. In the past, NIST worked closely with the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory on the development of explosive nanothermites .

    Oddly, it apparently never occurred to the NIST investigators of the collapse of three WTC buildings that explosives such as thermite, a material long used in controlled building demolitions , might have been involved in the perfect implosion of three WTC buildings.

    The recent doco about the American chemist and Norwegian metallurgist who sought to correct the official version by reference to aluminium as sn explosive hypothesised that it was molten aluminium flowing down into pools of water that explained the reported explosive sounds.

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  317. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 9:27 am GMT @Ron Unz For those without convenient access to a copy of the deHaven-Smith book, I've discovered there are some lengthy extracts available on the web:

    https://off-guardian.org/2016/09/04/are-you-a-mind-controlled-cia-stooge/

    Ron

    You may be aware that Daniel Pipes made a study of conspiracy theories and has written books on the subject – which I haven't read. I have however sampled his long list of articles which can be found here:

    http://www.daniel.pipes.org/topics/4/conspiracy-theories

    • Replies: @NosytheDuke A bit like reviewing or recommending a movie, that you haven't watched.

    I must admit though that you have a decided flair for the consistently proud display of your ignorance. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  318. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 11:09 am GMT • 200 Words @Erebus Hi,

    His alleged fence-sitting position makes no sense 15 years after the event.
    Well, quite a few people I know spent the first dozen or so of those believing that the official story is broadly true. Propaganda works. You can fool most of the people most of the time, so giving someone the benefit of the doubt has been my practice.
    But if you look at his questions, it's all misdirection. Squid ink strategy.
    Yeah, his response to me made that plain, but I really liked the touch that he's apparently friends with the ephemeral Betty Ong's dead parents! I'm guessing, of course, that he's alluding to the mysterious Betty-with-zero-life-history-Ong. He may have been referring to the parents of Madeline Sweeney, who's "phone call" from the same flight so contradicted Ong's that it makes one wonder if they were on the same flight, or to one of the other (stabbed) attendants.

    Uno absurdo dato, infinita sequuntur
    One absurdity being given, an infinite number follow.

    I'm dismayed to see this sort of stupidity serving to obscure the important theme Mr. Unz is exploring in his American Pravda series.

    Well, quite a few people I know spent the first dozen or so of those believing that the official story is broadly true. Propaganda works. You can fool most of the people most of the time, so giving someone the benefit of the doubt has been my practice.

    Yes, that's a good point. It actually took me about a decade to get to the point of just saying openly that the official 9/11 story was total crap.

    So you make a correct point. A correct general point. But in this specific case, I think there were warning signs from the get-go that this "Incitatus" is not some honest person seeking the truth. These guys show up and it's like they've got their schtick. They start saying they are open-minded and seeking the truth but then it becomes apparent that they have a list of talking points that they are trying to put out there just to confuse the matter.

    There is a great piece by the Saker today. I suppose you've likely read it.

    Yeah, his response to me made that plain, but I really liked the touch that he's apparently friends with the ephemeral Betty Ong's dead parents! I'm guessing, of course, that he's alluding to the mysterious Betty-with-zero-life-history-Ong. He may have been referring to the parents of Madeline Sweeney,

    It's actually more likely that he's acquainted with the person who invented all these characters!

    • Replies: @Boris
    Betty-with-zero-life-history-Ong

    It's actually more likely that he's acquainted with the person who invented all these characters!
    It's odious how the victims become "invented characters" to fools like you based on zero evidence.

    Here are some pictures of the dead woman whose memory you tarnish:

    http://www.bettyong.org/photos.htm Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  319. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 11:17 am GMT • 200 Words @Wizard of Oz I ask you as just the latest person to assert on UR that something - in this case the collapse of WTC 7 - is "an anomaly to all known laws of physics and structural engineering" or similar wotds which plainly mean that such laws make the collapse without deliberate demolition impossible....*what are your qualifations to be taken seriously on the implications of the laws of physics and structural engineering*? I have dealt with a lot of expert witnesse and you don't sound like one of them,not even the dodgy ones that have to be exposed and evaluated in court every day. Indeed do you consider yourself competent to evaluate expert evidence on physics and structural engineering like a judge assisted by the questions of counsel? If so why? Try persuading your readers.

    I have dealt with a lot of expert witnesse and you don't sound like one of them,not even the dodgy ones that have to be exposed and evaluated in court every day.

    Hey, Wizard, I earlier asked you to outline the strongest available evidence for the official government story. You never provided any.

    Well, you claimed that the official story was proof of the official story. Your specific words were:

    Normally the onus of proof would be on those who dispute the findings of a well funded official inquiry to displace the presumption that it is substantially correct.

    In other words, the official story is simply presumed to be correct. That was here: http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-alexander-cockburn-and-the-british-spies/#comment-1549520

    So that tells us that your grasp of what constitutes evidence is actually fairly weak, but since you want to flaunt your lawyerly credentials, I thought to a question

    Since your failure to outline any evidence for the official story, a commenter Boris has actualy tried to outline some. Among other things, he claims that the fact that Mohammed Atta had a plane ticket is evidence for the official story.

    In your professional opinion, as a lawyer, do you agree that this constitutes evidence for the official story? Yes or no?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz I am content to wait on Rurik answering me without your participation. In the meantime I am close to concluding that The Saker has included some pretty dodgy stuff in his new contribution on 9/11 which I wasn't aware he claimed any special knowledge of. , @Erebus
    Normally the onus of proof would be on those who dispute the findings of a well funded official inquiry to displace the presumption that it is substantially correct.
    Thanks for that Jonathan.
    The Wiz, notwithstanding his loathsome obfuscation and word mincing, can occasionally cut to the heart of the matter.
    Namely, at this level of criminality, there's no such thing as a free truth. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  320. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 11:31 am GMT • 200 Words @Incitatus I cherish free speech. But I don't live in a country that twice experienced the catastrophic results of demagogic incitement. I trust Germans know what they're doing, but I note your concern. And your angst over suffering. But isn't it a very selective angst?
    "...even if you take them at their word, the Holocaust was done as humanely as it's was humanly possible to kill people. Sort of like the Soylent Green euthanasia scene the violins were playing as they were handed a towel to take a 'shower', and then the death was as benign as could be arranged under the circumstances. And that was their worst case scenario of the gas chambers as I remember them being shown to us as children. Compare that to Dresden, which is undisputed and was as calculatedly cruel and sadistic as it was possible to imagine. And then some."

    "...and yet it's the Germans who everyone condemns for inhumanity."

    -Rurik 28dec15 #205

    http://www.unz.com/article/no-matter-who-becomes-president-israel-wins/#comments

    Why, like most who mourn Dresden 1944, don't you ever mention Warsaw Sep 1939? The same number of civilians - 20,000-25,000 - were killed. Or how about Warsaw Aug 1944 (150,000-200,000 civilians killed)? In fact, you could say Germans pioneered civilian killing (shelling of Paris 1870-71, bombing London in 1915, the Condor Legion and Guernica 1937, etc). They were very good at it. You never mention it. Does only German blood count? Or do you simply want to use Dresden to legitimize Nazi aggression?

    I confess I'm also puzzled by your preoccupation for the Lebensborn - most unusual for a Norseman.

    btw. You aren't by any chance Anders Behring Brevik blogging away in your prison cell?

    Hi, Ziofascist scumbag.

    I cherish free speech.

    LOL. "I'm not a vindictive person but the old bitch does deserve to rot in prison. And I hope she dies and burns in hell."

    But I don't live in a country that twice experienced the catastrophic results of demagogic incitement. I trust Germans know what they're doing

    Ah, I see you've thought about this and realize that imprisoning 87-year-old ladies is absolutely necessary to prevent the rise of the 4th Reich, eh?

    But I wonder about this . is imprisoning little old ladies like this likely to reduce antisemitism? Or is it more likely to increase it?

    Also, wouldn't you be concerned that imprisoning somebody for saying something, with absolutely no attempt to rebut what the person is saying, might cause people to think that the person is being imprisoned for telling the truth?

    What do you think? Have you thought about any of this at all?

    Well, of course not. You're a shit eater. You never actually think about anything! But you could start . it's not illegal YET!

    • Replies: @Incitatus No comment on the 20,000-25,000 killed in Warsaw Sep 1939? Silence on the 150,000-200,000 killed in Aug 1944? What a surprise!

    Instead, more angry tears for poor Nazi granny Ursula. What a "great" champion of freedom you are!

    I tried to be helpful. She'll probably love knitting (red, white, and black yarn only, please). And, since Adolf forgot the winter coats - well, you get the idea.

    You really should do something about your bad case of potty mouth. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  321. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 11:33 am GMT @Jonathan Revusky
    I have dealt with a lot of expert witnesse and you don't sound like one of them,not even the dodgy ones that have to be exposed and evaluated in court every day.
    Hey, Wizard, I earlier asked you to outline the strongest available evidence for the official government story. You never provided any.

    Well, you claimed that the official story was proof of the official story. Your specific words were:

    Normally the onus of proof would be on those who dispute the findings of a well funded official inquiry to displace the presumption that it is substantially correct.
    In other words, the official story is simply presumed to be correct. That was here: http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-alexander-cockburn-and-the-british-spies/#comment-1549520

    So that tells us that your grasp of what constitutes evidence is actually fairly weak, but since you want to flaunt your lawyerly credentials, I thought to a question...

    Since your failure to outline any evidence for the official story, a commenter Boris has actualy tried to outline some. Among other things, he claims that the fact that Mohammed Atta had a plane ticket is evidence for the official story.

    In your professional opinion, as a lawyer, do you agree that this constitutes evidence for the official story? Yes or no?

    I am content to wait on Rurik answering me without your participation. In the meantime I am close to concluding that The Saker has included some pretty dodgy stuff in his new contribution on 9/11 which I wasn't aware he claimed any special knowledge of.

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  322. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 11:47 am GMT • 100 Words @Anonymous I've at least skimmed through every comment on this post, and have to lament the huge drop in quality as the thread progressed. The last 100 or so comments are embarrassing and likely to put off anyone with an interest in the subject at hand.

    I've at least skimmed through every comment on this post, and have to lament the huge drop in quality as the thread progressed.

    Well, what to do? There is some amazing stuff here. This Boris shit eater, I asked him to outline the strongest evidence available for the official story on 9/11. He told me, among a few other things, that Mohammed Atta had a plane ticket!

    Of course he hijacked a plane and flew it into a building at the behest of a bearded religious fanatic in Afghanistan! HE HAD A PLANE TICKET, DAMMIT!!!!

    • Replies: @Boris
    Of course he hijacked a plane and flew it into a building at the behest of a bearded religious fanatic in Afghanistan! HE HAD A PLANE TICKET, DAMMIT!!!!
    No one made this argument. You're such a delicate genius on 9/11, yet you keep flogging this straw man. What a coward. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  323. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 12:04 pm GMT • 400 Words @Boris
    Well, c'mon, the guy doubtless came under pressure to say that the guy could have done what they said he did.
    You keep making things up.

    if he evaluated the guy as unable to control a Cessna in August, the guy couldn't suddenly fly a big Boeing in September!
    Huh? His evaluation included landing. But yeah, sure they guy is lying about the part you hate but telling the truth about the part you like. Is there any better evidence that you are a complete moronic hack?
    The plane allegedly flew this really incredible 270 degree descending loop
    Yeah, professional pilots think Hanjour could have done it:

    http://www.salon.com/2006/05/19/askthepilot186/

    Reality: As I've explained in at least one prior column, Hani Hanjour's flying was hardly the show-quality demonstration often described. It was exceptional only in its recklessness. If anything, his loops and turns and spirals above the nation's capital revealed him to be exactly the shitty pilot he by all accounts was. To hit the Pentagon squarely he needed only a bit of luck, and he got it, possibly with help from the 757's autopilot. Striking a stationary object - even a large one like the Pentagon - at high speed and from a steep angle is very difficult. To make the job easier, he came in obliquely, tearing down light poles as he roared across the Pentagon's lawn.
    ...
    "The hijackers required only the shallow understanding of the aircraft," agrees Ken Hertz, an airline pilot rated on the 757/767. "In much the same way that a person needn't be an experienced physician in order to perform CPR or set a broken bone."

    That sentiment is echoed by Joe d'Eon, airline pilot and host of the "Fly With Me" podcast series. "It's the difference between a doctor and a butcher," says d'Eon.

    There is no photographic or video evidence at the alleged crash site that is consistent with a Boeing 757 having crashed there!
    lol you are one of the idiots who think a missile hit the Pentagon? I should have seen that coming. Do you believe the CGI people too? And the nuke guys?

    What's really galling is that fuckers like you malign the victims and suggest they are in on the conspiracy. It's not bad enough that they get their lives cut short, nope. You guys have to take a shit on their ashes too.

    if he evaluated the guy as unable to control a Cessna in August, the guy couldn't suddenly fly a big Boeing in September!

    Huh? His evaluation included landing.

    Did you come up with this yourself or is this some talking point that was just handed to you? YOu can read what was said, but the problem was not solely that Hani Hanjour could not land the plane. He could not really control the plane in flight. I'm not a pilot myself, but looking at this as a generalist, the upshot of it clearly seems to be that that Hani Hanjour did not possess even elementary plane flying skills for a small plane in August of 2001. And then in September of 2001 carried out a maneuver in a big Boeing jet that would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for someone with years of experience.

    But I was thinking about this there were four or five Arab hijackers in the plane according to the story. How would they even know which one of them flew the plane? Anybody who made a phone call wouldn't know the names of the various hijackers, would they? So they just tell a story and there's no proof whatsoever of the story anyway And then a shit eater like you, rather than just admit the obvious, that there isn't any proof of this aspect of the story, you just start making up shit to back up the story. Like you start by trying to claim that the incident where he couldn't fly a Cessna was years before 9/11. No, it was 3 weeks before 9/11!

    lol you are one of the idiots who think a missile hit the Pentagon?

    Well, I don't know. What would be idiotic about thinking that? All I said was that there is not a shred of evidence that a Boeing airliner really hit the Pentagon. At least I've never seen any.

    What's really galling is that fuckers like you malign the victims

    Oh, I'm maligning the victims, am I? And that really bothers you . Wanting to get at the truth of what really happened is to disrespect the victims

    I can't believe you came up with that shit yourself. You've got a list of talking points that you're running through, right?

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  324. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 12:45 pm GMT • 300 Words @Boris
    Oh, hold on I see you don't understand the difference between a necessary and a sufficient condition.
    You are so stupid. I already wrote this:
    Obviously the plane ticket is a necessary but not sufficient piece of evidence.
    See? You can't even fucking read.

    I never said it was the only piece of evidence, and said explicitly that it was not sufficient. You took it out of a list of evidence and pretended I said it was "proof," when I never even used the word. Because you are too stupid to argue honestly.

    Oh, hold on I see you don't understand the difference between a necessary and a sufficient condition.

    (Shrug.) Little children are always using big words that they have overheard adults using. It doesn't really mean that they understand what they are saying.

    But okay, look, a shit eater like you could, in the appropriate context, understand what a necessary versus a sufficient condition is. Or you could understand what the beg the question fallacy is. But the problem remains that, at the key moment, you are able to NOT understand it.

    Because, at the key moment, the shit eater always ends up telling you (either directly or circuitously) that the official story is proof of the official story. Never fails. Earlier you told me to go read the page on wikipedia. Well, the page on wikipedia is just a synopsis of the official story. I asked you for proof so you were just telling me that the official story is proof of the official story.

    I never said it was the only piece of evidence, and said explicitly that it was not sufficient. You took it out of a list of evidence and pretended I said it was "proof,"

    Well, that's a mischaracterization. The fact remains, you said that Mohammed Atta having a plane ticket was evidence. It was in your list of evidence.

    AND NO, the fact remains: THAT IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING!

    I'll tell you what it is. It is SHIT. Because that is all a shit eater ever comes up with in a debate.

    Just shit. Like the guy bought a plane ticket so he's the hijacker The government story is proof of the government story

    You're not the first shit eater I've debated with. All you guys ever come up with is SHIT.

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  325. Erebus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 1:21 pm GMT • 100 Words @Jonathan Revusky
    I have dealt with a lot of expert witnesse and you don't sound like one of them,not even the dodgy ones that have to be exposed and evaluated in court every day.
    Hey, Wizard, I earlier asked you to outline the strongest available evidence for the official government story. You never provided any.

    Well, you claimed that the official story was proof of the official story. Your specific words were:

    Normally the onus of proof would be on those who dispute the findings of a well funded official inquiry to displace the presumption that it is substantially correct.
    In other words, the official story is simply presumed to be correct. That was here: http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-alexander-cockburn-and-the-british-spies/#comment-1549520

    So that tells us that your grasp of what constitutes evidence is actually fairly weak, but since you want to flaunt your lawyerly credentials, I thought to a question...

    Since your failure to outline any evidence for the official story, a commenter Boris has actualy tried to outline some. Among other things, he claims that the fact that Mohammed Atta had a plane ticket is evidence for the official story.

    In your professional opinion, as a lawyer, do you agree that this constitutes evidence for the official story? Yes or no?

    Normally the onus of proof would be on those who dispute the findings of a well funded official inquiry to displace the presumption that it is substantially correct.

    Thanks for that Jonathan.
    The Wiz, notwithstanding his loathsome obfuscation and word mincing, can occasionally cut to the heart of the matter.
    Namely, at this level of criminality, there's no such thing as a free truth.

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  326. Sam Shama says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 1:51 pm GMT • 100 Words @Rurik
    That's a rhetorical question, isn't it?
    ;)
    It's funny, because in his role here as professional disinfo agent, it would probably make more sense for him to express sympathy with Ursula Haverbeck and agree with us that her imprisonment is unjust and so on, in order to build a rapport and try to come across as even somewhat reasonable. But the thing is that the morally degenerate zio scumbag can't help gloating over the fact that the Zionist power structure manage to imprison this little old lady.
    extremely salient insight JR
    Scumbags will be scumbags.
    I confess I (of all people!) sometimes wince at your colorful language, but then sometimes there's just no other way to put it!
    That little degenerate bastard Sam Shama is exactly like this too, you know.
    well, I try to hold out hope for our pal Sam, but then a while back it was abundantly clear that Sam wanted some kind of harm to come to me when I expressed sympathy for this same little old grandma who the PTB were crushing with an iron Zio-boot for her plucky temerity

    Remember that Sam?

    Oh Hello Rurik
    Ursula Haverbeck, the lovely little granny which has a rap sheet longer than your arm?

    According to Agence France-Presse

    Haverbeck is a notorious extremist who was once chaired a far-right training center shut down in 2008 for spreading Nazi propaganda, according to AFP. She has a rap sheet and a suspended sentence for sedition.

    The Zio-boot? You mean this one?
    http://www.unz.com/article/what-obama-should-have-told-bibi/#comment-1239335

    btw I see Revusky getting into his usual foamy-mouth-eyeballs-spinning routine.

    Jonathan,

    fear not your hunger, it will be sated; coprophagic services are sought after at Upper Manhattan's recycling plant. What hour shall I ask them to contact you?

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  327. Incitatus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 2:09 pm GMT • 300 Words @Rurik I was reading your quote and thinking to myself, wow, what insight and pure, raw humanity from this mystery writer..

    until I saw it sourced ;)

    Does only German blood count?
    no sir, but you see for me, even German blood counts, especially when it's women and children, who're being burned alive to sate the insatiable hatred of a monster

    anyone who burns women and children alive for the fun of it and out of sheer tribal hatred, rather than as a military and existential imperative, is a monster in my book

    if the Nazis burned women and children alive for the fun of it, then by God I tell you I would condemn them with all of my breath, I swear it. But they didn't do that. It was the Zio-West that did that, (just as they did at Waco, TX) and I find that difficult to live with. Sort of the way the Norwegians treated the children of Lebensborn; monstrous and impossible to justify. So yes, every single German soldier who considered the women of the occupied countries as their rightful booty deserved to die, and happily, many of them did. But then to blame the children of these trysts for the crimes of their fathers, is a stain that will besmirch the character of the Norwegian people for generations.

    "if the Nazis burned women and children alive for the fun of it, then by God I tell you I would condemn them with all of my breath, I swear it. But they didn't do that."

    Well, Rurik, here's your chance to condemn them:

    " starting at 0800 on 25 September [1939], Luftwaffe bombers under the command of Major Wolfram Freiherr von Richthofen conducted the largest air raid ever seen by that time, dropping 560 tons of high explosive bombs and 72 tons of incendiary bombs, in coordination with heavy artillery shelling by Army units."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Warsaw_in_World_War_II

    Note the "72 tons of incendiary bombs." 20,000-25,000 civilians died. Surprised? Later on, beginning August 1944 the Nazis really got busy. By January 1945 they'd leveled 85% of the city and killed another 150,000-200,000 civilians.

    How about Rotterdam May 1940? 884 civilians killed, 85,000 left homeless:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotterdam_Blitz

    How about Guernica April 1937? They bombed it on market day, when packed with civilians. They used incendiaries. 170-300 civilians died. The city was largely destroyed:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Guernica

    How about Lidice June 1942? 173 men executed on the spot. 203 women and 105 children taken to concentration camps (four pregnant women were first forced to have abortions). The village was leveled. The Nazis killed all the animals and even dug up the remains in the cemetery!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice_massacre

    How about Oradour-sur-Glane Jun 1944? 642 civilians murdered and -wait for it – women and children deliberately burned to death.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane_massacre

    There are other examples. Oh those poor, poor Nazis.

    Don't forget your promise to "condemn them [Nazis] with all of my breath."

    • Replies: @Rurik OK, I checked out the first of your links, (and admittedly from the obviously biased Wikipedia)

    this is the kind of thing I found out


    The Polish Army surrendered nearly 140,000 troops and during the siege around 18,000 civilians of Warsaw perished. As a result of the air bombardments 10% of the city's buildings were entirely destroyed and further 40% were heavily damaged.[1]:78

    now this is what I said:

    "anyone who burns women and children alive for the fun of it and out of sheer tribal hatred, rather than as a military and existential imperative, is a monster in my book"

    so what you have was strategic bombing of a city (a war crime in my book but then I never said the Nazis were boy scouts) for a clear military objective. That's not what I'm talking about.

    Imagine if Germany had already defeated the Poles, and Poland was on the brink, and had effectively lost the war, and Warsaw was turned into a refugee city with tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of refugees huddling there as their last sanctuary. There would have been no military age men there, as they would have all died in the war by now, and the city was overflowing with women and children (and POW camps and such). OK? And then imagine the kind of people that would plan, not just an attack in order to break the moral of the enemy, (it had already long been broken), but rather as a calculated act of sheer inhuman cruelty, intended to burn alive every single old man, woman and child until there was nothing left of either the people or the (beautiful, ancient Baroque architecture and art of the) city. It was a true holocaust, intended as an act of sadistic vengeance upon harmless people to sate an insatiable need to inflict unimaginable suffering and cruelty for cruelties' sake. Just like Waco. And for the same reason, - they defied the power of their 'masters', and for that, they would be made to pay.

    Did the Nazis ever do anything like that? Did they ever deliberately burn hundreds of thousands of civilians alive for no military purpose whatsoever? But just to be as cruel as possible?

    I guess that's the word I'm really thinking of there. Cruelty. Because as that quote you posted showed, the Nazis at their worst were trying to murder people as humanely as possible, whereas the allies wanted to inflict the most suffering on the most innocent and vulnerable women and children as possible. They wanted to burn women and children alive who were no threat and at the virtual end of the war. What kind of people do something like that?

    Reading the Old Testament, I get an idea of where they get their demonic hate from.

    One on my mantras Incitatus, is that a lot of the raw hate in the world today (and certainly yesterday) comes from religious ignorance and a cartoon version of the world that says the followers of this religion are pure good, and the followers of that religion are pure evil. I sort of wonder what things would be like if we'd finally lay to rest these pernicious and stone age codified ignorance down, and joined the 21st century as rational actors... Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  328. Incitatus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 2:16 pm GMT • 100 Words @Erebus Hi,

    His alleged fence-sitting position makes no sense 15 years after the event.
    Well, quite a few people I know spent the first dozen or so of those believing that the official story is broadly true. Propaganda works. You can fool most of the people most of the time, so giving someone the benefit of the doubt has been my practice.
    But if you look at his questions, it's all misdirection. Squid ink strategy.
    Yeah, his response to me made that plain, but I really liked the touch that he's apparently friends with the ephemeral Betty Ong's dead parents! I'm guessing, of course, that he's alluding to the mysterious Betty-with-zero-life-history-Ong. He may have been referring to the parents of Madeline Sweeney, who's "phone call" from the same flight so contradicted Ong's that it makes one wonder if they were on the same flight, or to one of the other (stabbed) attendants.

    Uno absurdo dato, infinita sequuntur
    One absurdity being given, an infinite number follow.

    I'm dismayed to see this sort of stupidity serving to obscure the important theme Mr. Unz is exploring in his American Pravda series.

    "I really liked the touch that he's apparently friends with the ephemeral Betty Ong's dead parents!"

    Nice try. Try Thomas Roger, father of twenty-four year old Jean D. Roger.

    "I'm guessing, of course "

    You seem to do a lot of that. No answers to simple questions. Just crackpot web-links and looney-tune CGI plane theories you can't explain. "The Great Revusky" seems equally barren.

    • Replies: @Erebus
    Nice try. Try Thomas Roger, father of twenty-four year old Jean D. Roger.
    I wasn't trying. You realize, of course, that your comment was utterly meaningless. I could claim to be the pilot Ogonowski's alter ego but it would mean nothing at all in the context of this debate. Nothing - at - all. Get it? No? Oh well.
    (re: guessing) You seem to do a lot of that.
    In the case mentioned, I was mocking the silliness of your question. Do you have another example?
    No answers to simple questions.
    Guilty as charged. I ignore simpleton level questions. That's for, well, simpletons to exercise themselves over. Are there any non-simpleton level questions you asked that I missed? If you have one, I'll be pleased to entertain it.
    Just crackpot web-links and looney-tune CGI plane theories you can't explain.
    Hmm, you're either hallucinating or suffering some difficulty understanding the written word.
    I didn't provide any web-links (crack-pot or otherwise) and I didn't try to "explain" any "CGI theories".
    Perhaps you got confused when I did say that we have "evidence" of but one of the planes, and said evidence is full of anomalies best explicated by referring to CGI techniques. What "CGI theories" should I have tried to explain? Are there any that would be useful here?

    I think Revusky has you all wrong. You're not a real shit-eater at all. You're either a running algorithm (however primitive) or pretending to be one. I'm guessing (!) the latter, as real algorithms are expensive, and effective ones aren't much more expensive than ineffective ones. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  329. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 2:43 pm GMT • 100 Words @Jonathan Revusky
    I've at least skimmed through every comment on this post, and have to lament the huge drop in quality as the thread progressed.
    Well, what to do? There is some amazing stuff here. This Boris shit eater, I asked him to outline the strongest evidence available for the official story on 9/11. He told me, among a few other things, that Mohammed Atta had a plane ticket!

    Of course he hijacked a plane and flew it into a building at the behest of a bearded religious fanatic in Afghanistan! HE HAD A PLANE TICKET, DAMMIT!!!!

    Of course he hijacked a plane and flew it into a building at the behest of a bearded religious fanatic in Afghanistan! HE HAD A PLANE TICKET, DAMMIT!!!!

    No one made this argument. You're such a delicate genius on 9/11, yet you keep flogging this straw man. What a coward.

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  330. Anonymous says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 2:44 pm GMT @Wizard of Oz Your #335 Comment has a ihick yellow-brown rectangular frame around it. How did you achieve that?

    Can't speak with 100% certainty, but I believe it's a mark of distinction from the comment moderator.

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  331. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 2:49 pm GMT • 100 Words

    But okay, look, a shit eater like you could, in the appropriate context, understand what a necessary versus a sufficient condition is.

    lol. I mentioned "necessary vs. sufficient," then you read it and somehow thought you came up with it on your own and it would be a huge win for you. I'd be embarrassed and mad, too. You are all over the place, man.

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  332. Incitatus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 2:49 pm GMT • 100 Words @Jonathan Revusky Hi, Ziofascist scumbag.
    I cherish free speech.
    LOL. "I'm not a vindictive person but the old bitch does deserve to rot in prison. And I hope she dies and burns in hell."
    But I don't live in a country that twice experienced the catastrophic results of demagogic incitement. I trust Germans know what they're doing
    Ah, I see you've thought about this and realize that imprisoning 87-year-old ladies is absolutely necessary to prevent the rise of the 4th Reich, eh?

    But I wonder about this.... is imprisoning little old ladies like this likely to reduce antisemitism? Or is it more likely to increase it?

    Also, wouldn't you be concerned that imprisoning somebody for saying something, with absolutely no attempt to rebut what the person is saying, might cause people to think that the person is being imprisoned for telling the truth?

    What do you think? Have you thought about any of this at all?

    Well, of course not. You're a shit eater. You never actually think about anything! But you could start.... it's not illegal... YET!

    No comment on the 20,000-25,000 killed in Warsaw Sep 1939? Silence on the 150,000-200,000 killed in Aug 1944? What a surprise!

    Instead, more angry tears for poor Nazi granny Ursula. What a "great" champion of freedom you are!

    I tried to be helpful. She'll probably love knitting (red, white, and black yarn only, please). And, since Adolf forgot the winter coats – well, you get the idea.

    You really should do something about your bad case of potty mouth.

    • Replies: @utu Where did you get this "20,000-25,000 killed in Warsaw"? Polish Wiki states that the number of dead due to aerial bombardment is impossible to establish because it cannot be separated from number of dead due to artillery shelling. English Wiki gives the number of 20-25k as total number of dead of 3 week siege. It also states that 10% of building were destroyed and 40% were damaged. In Dresden over 90% of city center was destroyed. The bottom line is that Warsaw and Dresden cannot be compared in effect, in intent and in legal terms. What happened in Warsaw was legally not a war crime. What happened in Dresden was not the war crime only because Germany lost the war. As Gen. LeMay said to McNamara "If we'd lost the war, we'd all have been prosecuted as war criminals." The first bombing of cities with intent to kill civilians in WWII was done by RAF in the end of August 1940 during the Battle of Britain when Churchill ordered attack on Berlin which eventually lead to Luftwaffe retaliation which diverted their effort from destroying RAF. This is why that Battle of Britain was won by Brits. , @Jonathan Revusky
    No comment on the 20,000-25,000 killed in Warsaw Sep 1939?
    WTF!!??? Why would I have any comment on that? It has nothing to do with anything we were talking about! Why would I have a comment about those people as opposed to some other tens of thousands who were killed in another battle? Anyway, something like 50 million people died in WW2, so you're suddenly asking me why I don't have a comment specifically on those people?
    Instead, more angry tears for poor Nazi granny Ursula. What a "great" champion of freedom you are!
    What are you even trying to argue? That it doesn't matter that Mrs. Haverbeck is unjustly persecuted because 20,000 Poles died 77 years ago? What does one thing have to do with the other?

    Anyway, I've been thinking.... I think we should establish some regular awards for trolls.

    For example, "Shit eater of the week". I think Boris has "Shit eater of the week" wrapped up. I mean this kind of shit, like saying that the fact that Atta had a plane ticket is proof of the official story (AND HE DID SAY IT!) this probably can't be surpassed. At least not easily.

    But you deserve a prize too. I think the prize you can win is "Ziofascist scumbag of the week". You win this for gloating over the imprisonment of an 87-year-old woman, basically just for having opinions you don't like.

    That, and insinuating that Germany has to imprison 87-year-old grannies to prevent the rise of the Fourth Reich....

    So, yes, you get a prize. You are the Ziofascist scumbag of the week. Congratulations.

    By the way, though Boris is this week's shit eater of the week, I think if we make this a regular event, the Wizard of Oz will just dominate too much. I think he should be hors concours . we can't have the same guy winning all the time. It gets monotonous.

    I think we should just give the Wizard a lifetime achievement award. Just for general shit eating and scumbaggery and mendacity. Let's face it. The man is great, he's a champion. He deserves the recognition.

    So, congratulations. There's the question of prizes. I'm thinking...

    First prize could be the book of your choice by Elie Wiesel.

    Second prize will be two books by Elie Wiesel.

    Third prize is the complete works of Elie Wiesel.

    Thank you and good night. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  333. utu says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 2:55 pm GMT • 100 Words @Incitatus I cherish free speech. But I don't live in a country that twice experienced the catastrophic results of demagogic incitement. I trust Germans know what they're doing, but I note your concern. And your angst over suffering. But isn't it a very selective angst?
    "...even if you take them at their word, the Holocaust was done as humanely as it's was humanly possible to kill people. Sort of like the Soylent Green euthanasia scene the violins were playing as they were handed a towel to take a 'shower', and then the death was as benign as could be arranged under the circumstances. And that was their worst case scenario of the gas chambers as I remember them being shown to us as children. Compare that to Dresden, which is undisputed and was as calculatedly cruel and sadistic as it was possible to imagine. And then some."

    "...and yet it's the Germans who everyone condemns for inhumanity."

    -Rurik 28dec15 #205

    http://www.unz.com/article/no-matter-who-becomes-president-israel-wins/#comments

    Why, like most who mourn Dresden 1944, don't you ever mention Warsaw Sep 1939? The same number of civilians - 20,000-25,000 - were killed. Or how about Warsaw Aug 1944 (150,000-200,000 civilians killed)? In fact, you could say Germans pioneered civilian killing (shelling of Paris 1870-71, bombing London in 1915, the Condor Legion and Guernica 1937, etc). They were very good at it. You never mention it. Does only German blood count? Or do you simply want to use Dresden to legitimize Nazi aggression?

    I confess I'm also puzzled by your preoccupation for the Lebensborn - most unusual for a Norseman.

    btw. You aren't by any chance Anders Behring Brevik blogging away in your prison cell?

    If 20,000-25,000 civilians were killed during siege of Warsaw in 1939 then it is easy to believe that 100,000-125,000 were killed in Dresden in 1945. It suffices to scale up the Warsaw number by the number of sorties and payload Allies had over Dresden in comparison to what Germany had over Warsaw in 1939.

    • Replies: @Incitatus "If 20,000-25,000 civilians were killed during siege of Warsaw in 1939 then it is easy to believe that 100,000-125,000 were killed in Dresden in 1945."

    So the death toll in Warsaw '39 is reason to increase Dresden '45 dead by 4-5 times? I think you're overestimating Allied efficiency and malice.

    The Nazis published claims of 200,000 in March '45. At the very same time, city officials estimated "no more than 25,000, a figure that subsequent investigations supported."

    The death of any, Warsaw and Dresden, was tragic. My remarks to Rurik intended to highlight his neglect of one case and habitual celebration of the other. See also #350. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  334. Incitatus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 4:38 pm GMT • 100 Words @utu If 20,000-25,000 civilians were killed during siege of Warsaw in 1939 then it is easy to believe that 100,000-125,000 were killed in Dresden in 1945. It suffices to scale up the Warsaw number by the number of sorties and payload Allies had over Dresden in comparison to what Germany had over Warsaw in 1939.

    "If 20,000-25,000 civilians were killed during siege of Warsaw in 1939 then it is easy to believe that 100,000-125,000 were killed in Dresden in 1945."

    So the death toll in Warsaw '39 is reason to increase Dresden '45 dead by 4-5 times? I think you're overestimating Allied efficiency and malice.

    The Nazis published claims of 200,000 in March '45. At the very same time, city officials estimated "no more than 25,000, a figure that subsequent investigations supported."

    The death of any, Warsaw and Dresden, was tragic. My remarks to Rurik intended to highlight his neglect of one case and habitual celebration of the other. See also #350.

    • Replies: @utu "So the death toll in Warsaw '39 is reason to increase Dresden '45 dead by 4-5 times? " - I do not believe that current figures for the number of dead in Dresden. I think that the initial German estimates (>100,000) are closer to the truth than the current (≈25,000) estimates. Warsaw and Dresden are two completely different events with different goals, strategy and tactics. The goals in Dresden was to maximize the death toll of civilians. Part of the tactics was to start the fire storm. While Germans in Warsaw occasionally targeted civilians but chiefly they targeted soldiers who were defending the city, so some many civilians were killed as a result collateral damage (the euphemism invented by allies). I do not think it is possible to overestimate the malice that guided many actions by allies. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  335. Erebus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 4:53 pm GMT • 300 Words @Incitatus
    "I really liked the touch that he's apparently friends with the ephemeral Betty Ong's dead parents!"
    Nice try. Try Thomas Roger, father of twenty-four year old Jean D. Roger.
    "I'm guessing, of course..."
    You seem to do a lot of that. No answers to simple questions. Just crackpot web-links and looney-tune CGI plane theories you can't explain. "The Great Revusky" seems equally barren.

    Nice try. Try Thomas Roger, father of twenty-four year old Jean D. Roger.

    I wasn't trying. You realize, of course, that your comment was utterly meaningless. I could claim to be the pilot Ogonowski's alter ego but it would mean nothing at all in the context of this debate. Nothing – at – all. Get it? No? Oh well.

    (re: guessing) You seem to do a lot of that.

    In the case mentioned, I was mocking the silliness of your question. Do you have another example?

    No answers to simple questions.

    Guilty as charged. I ignore simpleton level questions. That's for, well, simpletons to exercise themselves over. Are there any non-simpleton level questions you asked that I missed? If you have one, I'll be pleased to entertain it.

    Just crackpot web-links and looney-tune CGI plane theories you can't explain.

    Hmm, you're either hallucinating or suffering some difficulty understanding the written word.
    I didn't provide any web-links (crack-pot or otherwise) and I didn't try to "explain" any "CGI theories".
    Perhaps you got confused when I did say that we have "evidence" of but one of the planes, and said evidence is full of anomalies best explicated by referring to CGI techniques. What "CGI theories" should I have tried to explain? Are there any that would be useful here?

    I think Revusky has you all wrong. You're not a real shit-eater at all. You're either a running algorithm (however primitive) or pretending to be one. I'm guessing (!) the latter, as real algorithms are expensive, and effective ones aren't much more expensive than ineffective ones.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama Did you not write this?
    In any case, only one plane ever made it to prime time and much of the footage exhibits disturbing anomalies readily explained by CGI.
    In #303
    http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-how-the-cia-invented-conspiracy-theories/#comment-1563891
    ??


    You did. So isn't one supposed to understand from that statement that you favour CGI expalining what people saw, including those who viewed an impact from street level? , @Incitatus

    "I wasn't trying."
    No truer words were ever uttered. You don't really put much effort into anything, do you? Except, of course, preening like a chicken in heat.
    "You realize, of course, that your comment was utterly meaningless. I could claim to be the pilot Ogonowski's alter ego but it would mean nothing at all in the context of this debate. Nothing – at – all. Get it? No? Oh well."
    But you claimed (#304) the planes were CGI - and than no genuine planes flew into the towers. Well (I'm afraid to ask) what happened to the crew and passengers? You said they probably screwed up the plane image on WTC 7, as well as the demo sequence of WTC 2 & WTC 1. You avoided answering why WTC 7 was taken down, urging us to "let Google be your friend." Then you couldn't explain how eyewitnesses saw your 'computer generated image' planes.
    "I ignore simpleton level questions."
    Why? Because you don't have any answers. QED you're not as intellegent as a simpleton.
    "I didn't try to "explain" any "CGI theories"."
    Let me refresh your memory (#304):
    "- I have a hard time believing any planes were involved at all, so your 2nd question is moot for me, but if my guess immediately above is right, then there would have been an explosion cueing the point of impact. Perhaps that failed to go off, leaving any CGI plane simply disappearing into the building without leaving a trace. That would look rather weird, so they opted to bring it down in broad daylight hoping few would notice."
    Not trying is one thing. Lying is quite another. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  336. Sam Shama says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 5:09 pm GMT • 100 Words

    An undeniable condition, on any comments section, of any article published here, has to be the Jonathan Revusky effect : a rapid devolvement into scatology.

    Why Jonathan?

    Your basic reading skills are suffering as well; as evident in your your awfully retarded, repetitious replies to Boris.
    Has the quality of your special diet declined?

    P.S. : [btw Jonathan, thanks for mentioning that my approach is similar to Incitatus'. ]

    • Replies: @Incitatus Prof. Graf Alexander Parsifal von Kleve would, with little doubt, diagnose the "Great Revusky" as suffering from an acute case of PPP: "The typical case is mild and limited in duration. In extraordinary instances the condition deepens and persists for years, manifested in uncontrolled anger, paranoia, infantile illusion and, of course, nearly constant confrontational obscenity."

    Sadly, there are no cures to PPP (Painfully Prolonged Puberty). Like me, you've probably contributed to sponsored walks raising money for research. Alas, as Revusky demonstrates, it's a long way away.

    We're all rooting for you, JR. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments

  337. Sam Shama says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 5:14 pm GMT @Erebus
    Nice try. Try Thomas Roger, father of twenty-four year old Jean D. Roger.
    I wasn't trying. You realize, of course, that your comment was utterly meaningless. I could claim to be the pilot Ogonowski's alter ego but it would mean nothing at all in the context of this debate. Nothing - at - all. Get it? No? Oh well.
    (re: guessing) You seem to do a lot of that.
    In the case mentioned, I was mocking the silliness of your question. Do you have another example?
    No answers to simple questions.
    Guilty as charged. I ignore simpleton level questions. That's for, well, simpletons to exercise themselves over. Are there any non-simpleton level questions you asked that I missed? If you have one, I'll be pleased to entertain it.
    Just crackpot web-links and looney-tune CGI plane theories you can't explain.
    Hmm, you're either hallucinating or suffering some difficulty understanding the written word.
    I didn't provide any web-links (crack-pot or otherwise) and I didn't try to "explain" any "CGI theories".
    Perhaps you got confused when I did say that we have "evidence" of but one of the planes, and said evidence is full of anomalies best explicated by referring to CGI techniques. What "CGI theories" should I have tried to explain? Are there any that would be useful here?

    I think Revusky has you all wrong. You're not a real shit-eater at all. You're either a running algorithm (however primitive) or pretending to be one. I'm guessing (!) the latter, as real algorithms are expensive, and effective ones aren't much more expensive than ineffective ones.

    Did you not write this?

    In any case, only one plane ever made it to prime time and much of the footage exhibits disturbing anomalies readily explained by CGI.

    In #303
    http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-how-the-cia-invented-conspiracy-theories/#comment-1563891
    ??

    You did. So isn't one supposed to understand from that statement that you favour CGI expalining what people saw, including those who viewed an impact from street level?

    • Replies: @Erebus
    So isn't one supposed to understand from that statement that you favour CGI expalining what people saw, including those who viewed an impact from street level?
    No, one is supposed to understand what the statement says, and nothing besides. What eyewitnesses on the street may or may not have seen would not normally be covered by the word "footage".

    There appear to be serious problems with the available videos - FRP nose cones emerging intact on the other side of buildings, wings disappearing behind buildings, bright flashes just prior to impact marking the impact point, the lack of camera jitter in the plane's flight path. And so on. These are all readily explained with reference to CGI, but difficult otherwise. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  338. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 5:21 pm GMT • 100 Words

    Perhaps you got confused when I did say that we have "evidence" of but one of the planes, and said evidence is full of anomalies best explicated by referring to CGI techniques.

    The "CGI planes" hypothesis is one of the dumbest ever. Lizard people don't know how to do CGI! lol at you.

    Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  339. utu says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 5:31 pm GMT • 100 Words @Incitatus "If 20,000-25,000 civilians were killed during siege of Warsaw in 1939 then it is easy to believe that 100,000-125,000 were killed in Dresden in 1945."

    So the death toll in Warsaw '39 is reason to increase Dresden '45 dead by 4-5 times? I think you're overestimating Allied efficiency and malice.

    The Nazis published claims of 200,000 in March '45. At the very same time, city officials estimated "no more than 25,000, a figure that subsequent investigations supported."

    The death of any, Warsaw and Dresden, was tragic. My remarks to Rurik intended to highlight his neglect of one case and habitual celebration of the other. See also #350.

    "So the death toll in Warsaw '39 is reason to increase Dresden '45 dead by 4-5 times? " – I do not believe that current figures for the number of dead in Dresden. I think that the initial German estimates (>100,000) are closer to the truth than the current (≈25,000) estimates. Warsaw and Dresden are two completely different events with different goals, strategy and tactics. The goals in Dresden was to maximize the death toll of civilians. Part of the tactics was to start the fire storm. While Germans in Warsaw occasionally targeted civilians but chiefly they targeted soldiers who were defending the city, so some many civilians were killed as a result collateral damage (the euphemism invented by allies). I do not think it is possible to overestimate the malice that guided many actions by allies.

    • Replies: @Incitatus The initial city estimate was no more than 25,000. See Müller, Rolf-Dieter; Schönherr, Nicole; Widera, Thomas, eds. (2010), Die Zerstörung Dresdens: 13. bis 15. Februar 1945. But believe what you wish. I'm sure many would say the Warsaw '39 and '44 estimates are also too low.

    There may well have been Allied malice on the part of some. But you're remiss in not recognizing the earlier Nazi cancer. Trust Adolf on the eve of Case White:

    "Close your hearts to pity! Act brutally!..Be harsh and remorseless! Be steeled against all signs of compassion! ...[I want] the physical annihilation of the enemy...I have put my Death's Head formations at the lead with the command to send man, woman, and child of Polish descent and language to their deaths, pitilessly and remorselessly." -Adolf Hitler, address to military commanders 21 Aug 1939

    I don't he cared about 'collateral damage." In fact, he seems to want it. Find a similar quote from an allied leader of similar rank and you may have a case. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  340. Incitatus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 6:07 pm GMT • 300 Words @Erebus
    Nice try. Try Thomas Roger, father of twenty-four year old Jean D. Roger.
    I wasn't trying. You realize, of course, that your comment was utterly meaningless. I could claim to be the pilot Ogonowski's alter ego but it would mean nothing at all in the context of this debate. Nothing - at - all. Get it? No? Oh well.
    (re: guessing) You seem to do a lot of that.
    In the case mentioned, I was mocking the silliness of your question. Do you have another example?
    No answers to simple questions.
    Guilty as charged. I ignore simpleton level questions. That's for, well, simpletons to exercise themselves over. Are there any non-simpleton level questions you asked that I missed? If you have one, I'll be pleased to entertain it.
    Just crackpot web-links and looney-tune CGI plane theories you can't explain.
    Hmm, you're either hallucinating or suffering some difficulty understanding the written word.
    I didn't provide any web-links (crack-pot or otherwise) and I didn't try to "explain" any "CGI theories".
    Perhaps you got confused when I did say that we have "evidence" of but one of the planes, and said evidence is full of anomalies best explicated by referring to CGI techniques. What "CGI theories" should I have tried to explain? Are there any that would be useful here?

    I think Revusky has you all wrong. You're not a real shit-eater at all. You're either a running algorithm (however primitive) or pretending to be one. I'm guessing (!) the latter, as real algorithms are expensive, and effective ones aren't much more expensive than ineffective ones.

    "I wasn't trying."

    No truer words were ever uttered. You don't really put much effort into anything, do you? Except, of course, preening like a chicken in heat.

    "You realize, of course, that your comment was utterly meaningless. I could claim to be the pilot Ogonowski's alter ego but it would mean nothing at all in the context of this debate. Nothing – at – all. Get it? No? Oh well."

    But you claimed (#304) the planes were CGI – and than no genuine planes flew into the towers. Well (I'm afraid to ask) what happened to the crew and passengers? You said they probably screwed up the plane image on WTC 7, as well as the demo sequence of WTC 2 & WTC 1. You avoided answering why WTC 7 was taken down, urging us to "let Google be your friend." Then you couldn't explain how eyewitnesses saw your 'computer generated image' planes.

    "I ignore simpleton level questions."

    Why? Because you don't have any answers. QED you're not as intellegent as a simpleton.

    "I didn't try to "explain" any "CGI theories"."

    Let me refresh your memory (#304):

    "- I have a hard time believing any planes were involved at all, so your 2nd question is moot for me, but if my guess immediately above is right, then there would have been an explosion cueing the point of impact. Perhaps that failed to go off, leaving any CGI plane simply disappearing into the building without leaving a trace. That would look rather weird, so they opted to bring it down in broad daylight hoping few would notice."

    Not trying is one thing. Lying is quite another.

    • Replies: @Erebus
    You don't really put much effort into anything, do you?
    I put my effort in 15-13 years ago. Today, indeed, I am putting less effort in. Much less in fact, but that's because the case has effectively closed.
    Well (I'm afraid to ask) what happened to the crew and passengers?
    To be sure, I have no reliable information on this, though one need not overexercise their imagination to come up with several possibilities - from sipping MaiTais in their villas in the S. Pacific, to entombed at the bottom of the N. Atlantic, and everything in between.
    But you claimed (#304) the planes were CGI – and than no genuine planes flew into the towers.
    You seem to have the same reading comprehension problems as Sharma. (See my comment to him above)

    Put another way, explaining a theory is not the same as using a theory to explain what you see.


    Anyhow, obviously you have no material points to make. You're using, word for word, the same arguments I've been hearing for 15 yrs. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  341. utu says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 6:10 pm GMT • 200 Words @Incitatus No comment on the 20,000-25,000 killed in Warsaw Sep 1939? Silence on the 150,000-200,000 killed in Aug 1944? What a surprise!

    Instead, more angry tears for poor Nazi granny Ursula. What a "great" champion of freedom you are!

    I tried to be helpful. She'll probably love knitting (red, white, and black yarn only, please). And, since Adolf forgot the winter coats - well, you get the idea.

    You really should do something about your bad case of potty mouth.

    Where did you get this "20,000-25,000 killed in Warsaw"? Polish Wiki states that the number of dead due to aerial bombardment is impossible to establish because it cannot be separated from number of dead due to artillery shelling. English Wiki gives the number of 20-25k as total number of dead of 3 week siege. It also states that 10% of building were destroyed and 40% were damaged. In Dresden over 90% of city center was destroyed. The bottom line is that Warsaw and Dresden cannot be compared in effect, in intent and in legal terms. What happened in Warsaw was legally not a war crime. What happened in Dresden was not the war crime only because Germany lost the war. As Gen. LeMay said to McNamara "If we'd lost the war, we'd all have been prosecuted as war criminals." The first bombing of cities with intent to kill civilians in WWII was done by RAF in the end of August 1940 during the Battle of Britain when Churchill ordered attack on Berlin which eventually lead to Luftwaffe retaliation which diverted their effort from destroying RAF. This is why that Battle of Britain was won by Brits.

    • Replies: @Incitatus
    "Polish Wiki states that the number of dead due to aerial bombardment is impossible to establish because it cannot be separated from number of dead due to artillery shelling."
    See #365. Your concern is that a some died from shelling rather than aerial bombing? Was their death somehow more pleasant? Refer to my quote in #350: "560 tons of high explosive bombs and 72 tons of incendiary bombs, in coordination with heavy artillery shelling by Army units." Let the "in coordination with heavy artillery shelling by Army units" percolate in your mind.
    "In Dresden over 90% of city center was destroyed."
    How about Warsaw '44? Nazis leveled 85% of the entire city (not just the center) and killed another 150,000-200,000 civilians. Maybe more, if I permit myself the same wishful thinking to which you seem addicted. Forget about them? Oh, that's right. Probably most were humane "collateral damage" from ground launched fire and thus unworthy of comparison.

    No doubt victorious Nazis would have put LeMay & company in the dock. And a great many more. Roland Freisler was very good at executions (21 year old student Sophie Scholl comes to mind - she was guillotined). Pity poor Roly was killed by - you guessed it - a nasty Allied bomb 3 Feb 1945. Life's a bitch.

    I have tragic news for you. The Nazis lost. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  342. Incitatus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 6:35 pm GMT • 200 Words @utu "So the death toll in Warsaw '39 is reason to increase Dresden '45 dead by 4-5 times? " - I do not believe that current figures for the number of dead in Dresden. I think that the initial German estimates (>100,000) are closer to the truth than the current (≈25,000) estimates. Warsaw and Dresden are two completely different events with different goals, strategy and tactics. The goals in Dresden was to maximize the death toll of civilians. Part of the tactics was to start the fire storm. While Germans in Warsaw occasionally targeted civilians but chiefly they targeted soldiers who were defending the city, so some many civilians were killed as a result collateral damage (the euphemism invented by allies). I do not think it is possible to overestimate the malice that guided many actions by allies.

    The initial city estimate was no more than 25,000. See Müller, Rolf-Dieter; Schönherr, Nicole; Widera, Thomas, eds. (2010), Die Zerstörung Dresdens: 13. bis 15. Februar 1945. But believe what you wish. I'm sure many would say the Warsaw '39 and '44 estimates are also too low.

    There may well have been Allied malice on the part of some. But you're remiss in not recognizing the earlier Nazi cancer. Trust Adolf on the eve of Case White:

    "Close your hearts to pity! Act brutally!..Be harsh and remorseless! Be steeled against all signs of compassion! [I want] the physical annihilation of the enemy I have put my Death's Head formations at the lead with the command to send man, woman, and child of Polish descent and language to their deaths, pitilessly and remorselessly." -Adolf Hitler, address to military commanders 21 Aug 1939

    I don't he cared about 'collateral damage." In fact, he seems to want it. Find a similar quote from an allied leader of similar rank and you may have a case.

    Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  343. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 6:37 pm GMT • 400 Words @Incitatus No comment on the 20,000-25,000 killed in Warsaw Sep 1939? Silence on the 150,000-200,000 killed in Aug 1944? What a surprise!

    Instead, more angry tears for poor Nazi granny Ursula. What a "great" champion of freedom you are!

    I tried to be helpful. She'll probably love knitting (red, white, and black yarn only, please). And, since Adolf forgot the winter coats - well, you get the idea.

    You really should do something about your bad case of potty mouth.

    No comment on the 20,000-25,000 killed in Warsaw Sep 1939?

    WTF!!??? Why would I have any comment on that? It has nothing to do with anything we were talking about! Why would I have a comment about those people as opposed to some other tens of thousands who were killed in another battle? Anyway, something like 50 million people died in WW2, so you're suddenly asking me why I don't have a comment specifically on those people?

    Instead, more angry tears for poor Nazi granny Ursula. What a "great" champion of freedom you are!

    What are you even trying to argue? That it doesn't matter that Mrs. Haverbeck is unjustly persecuted because 20,000 Poles died 77 years ago? What does one thing have to do with the other?

    Anyway, I've been thinking . I think we should establish some regular awards for trolls.

    For example, "Shit eater of the week". I think Boris has "Shit eater of the week" wrapped up. I mean this kind of shit, like saying that the fact that Atta had a plane ticket is proof of the official story (AND HE DID SAY IT!) this probably can't be surpassed. At least not easily.

    But you deserve a prize too. I think the prize you can win is "Ziofascist scumbag of the week". You win this for gloating over the imprisonment of an 87-year-old woman, basically just for having opinions you don't like.

    That, and insinuating that Germany has to imprison 87-year-old grannies to prevent the rise of the Fourth Reich .

    So, yes, you get a prize. You are the Ziofascist scumbag of the week. Congratulations.

    By the way, though Boris is this week's shit eater of the week, I think if we make this a regular event, the Wizard of Oz will just dominate too much. I think he should be hors concours . we can't have the same guy winning all the time. It gets monotonous.

    I think we should just give the Wizard a lifetime achievement award. Just for general shit eating and scumbaggery and mendacity. Let's face it. The man is great, he's a champion. He deserves the recognition.

    So, congratulations. There's the question of prizes. I'm thinking

    First prize could be the book of your choice by Elie Wiesel.

    Second prize will be two books by Elie Wiesel.

    Third prize is the complete works of Elie Wiesel.

    Thank you and good night.

    • Replies: @Incitatus Again, tears for Ursula stream uncontrollably down my face. What injustice! What perfidy! That an old hate monger is called to account for breaking laws she clearly knew and willingly violated - well , it's unthinkable!

    I'm crushed at the thought that you see me complicit as the "Ziofascist scumbag of the week." But I'm equally humbled by your favor. If I must wear the badge you've awarded me, dare I ask who you've targeted for next weeks prize? Please be sure they measure up (you've made me feel responsible for a tradition).

    PS. To make sure of a wise choice maybe you can rent a motel room and invite servile flatterer Erebus, nordic üntermensch Rurik, and reptilian L.K to join you in judging candidates. Arrange your chairs in a circle. No doubt you know the rest of the drill (don't forget your Vaseline). , @Sam Shama Just a reminder: morning dosage on an empty stomach, prior to personal recycling.

    wish you a good night now. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  344. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 7:08 pm GMT @Jonathan Revusky
    Well, quite a few people I know spent the first dozen or so of those believing that the official story is broadly true. Propaganda works. You can fool most of the people most of the time, so giving someone the benefit of the doubt has been my practice.
    Yes, that's a good point. It actually took me about a decade to get to the point of just saying openly that the official 9/11 story was total crap.

    So you make a correct point. A correct general point. But in this specific case, I think there were warning signs from the get-go that this "Incitatus" is not some honest person seeking the truth. These guys show up and it's like they've got their schtick. They start saying they are open-minded and seeking the truth but then it becomes apparent that they have a list of talking points that they are trying to put out there just to confuse the matter.

    There is a great piece by the Saker today. I suppose you've likely read it.

    Yeah, his response to me made that plain, but I really liked the touch that he's apparently friends with the ephemeral Betty Ong's dead parents! I'm guessing, of course, that he's alluding to the mysterious Betty-with-zero-life-history-Ong. He may have been referring to the parents of Madeline Sweeney,
    It's actually more likely that he's acquainted with the person who invented all these characters!

    Betty-with-zero-life-history-Ong

    It's actually more likely that he's acquainted with the person who invented all these characters!

    It's odious how the victims become "invented characters" to fools like you based on zero evidence.

    Here are some pictures of the dead woman whose memory you tarnish:

    http://www.bettyong.org/photos.htm

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  345. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 7:11 pm GMT

    saying that the fact that Atta had a plane ticket is proof of the official story (AND HE DID SAY IT!)

    Then you should have no problem producing the quote.

    Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  346. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 9:00 pm GMT • 100 Words

    saying that the fact that Atta had a plane ticket is proof of the official story (AND HE DID SAY IT!)

    Then you should have no problem producing the quote.

    Dude, in comment #267 above, after my asking you what the strongest evidence available for the official story, you said (among a couple of other things that are of zero evidentiary value) "His purchase of the tickets".

    You were clearly offering that as evidence. It somehow escaped your notice that everybody else on the flight had presumably purchased tickets as well! LOL.

    But I don't get it. Don't you want your "shit eater of the week" prize? Oh, I forgot to tell you. This week's prize for shit eater of the week is a 2017 Golda Meir nude pictorial calendar!

    That's destined to be a prized collector's item.

    Surely you wouldn't want to miss out on that, would you?

    • Replies: @utu JR, what do you think of this:

    'It's been a bottomless pit': Airport worker who checked in Pentagon 9/11 hijackers despite the fact they were running late reveals his 15 years of guilt and how he became a pariah among colleagues

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3783981/Vaughn-Allex-airport-worker-checked-Pentagon-9-11-hijackers-reveals-15-years-guilt.html , @Boris

    after my asking you what the strongest evidence available for the official story
    As I've already shown, you asked me "what records?" The ticket is among the records that support the official story. It is sad that you keep lying about this. We both agree--and have from the beginning--that the ticket is necessary, but not sufficient. You keep pretending otherwise for some reason. Your behavior is downright weird. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  347. Incitatus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 9:27 pm GMT • 100 Words @Sam Shama An undeniable condition, on any comments section, of any article published here, has to be the Jonathan Revusky effect : a rapid devolvement into scatology.

    Why Jonathan?

    Your basic reading skills are suffering as well; as evident in your your awfully retarded, repetitious replies to Boris.
    Has the quality of your special diet declined?

    P.S. : [btw Jonathan, thanks for mentioning that my approach is similar to Incitatus'. ]

    Prof. Graf Alexander Parsifal von Kleve would, with little doubt, diagnose the "Great Revusky" as suffering from an acute case of PPP: "The typical case is mild and limited in duration. In extraordinary instances the condition deepens and persists for years, manifested in uncontrolled anger, paranoia, infantile illusion and, of course, nearly constant confrontational obscenity."

    Sadly, there are no cures to PPP (Painfully Prolonged Puberty). Like me, you've probably contributed to sponsored walks raising money for research. Alas, as Revusky demonstrates, it's a long way away.

    We're all rooting for you, JR.

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  348. Incitatus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 10:19 pm GMT • 200 Words @utu Where did you get this "20,000-25,000 killed in Warsaw"? Polish Wiki states that the number of dead due to aerial bombardment is impossible to establish because it cannot be separated from number of dead due to artillery shelling. English Wiki gives the number of 20-25k as total number of dead of 3 week siege. It also states that 10% of building were destroyed and 40% were damaged. In Dresden over 90% of city center was destroyed. The bottom line is that Warsaw and Dresden cannot be compared in effect, in intent and in legal terms. What happened in Warsaw was legally not a war crime. What happened in Dresden was not the war crime only because Germany lost the war. As Gen. LeMay said to McNamara "If we'd lost the war, we'd all have been prosecuted as war criminals." The first bombing of cities with intent to kill civilians in WWII was done by RAF in the end of August 1940 during the Battle of Britain when Churchill ordered attack on Berlin which eventually lead to Luftwaffe retaliation which diverted their effort from destroying RAF. This is why that Battle of Britain was won by Brits.

    "Polish Wiki states that the number of dead due to aerial bombardment is impossible to establish because it cannot be separated from number of dead due to artillery shelling."

    See #365. Your concern is that a some died from shelling rather than aerial bombing? Was their death somehow more pleasant? Refer to my quote in #350: "560 tons of high explosive bombs and 72 tons of incendiary bombs, in coordination with heavy artillery shelling by Army units." Let the "in coordination with heavy artillery shelling by Army units" percolate in your mind.

    "In Dresden over 90% of city center was destroyed."

    How about Warsaw '44? Nazis leveled 85% of the entire city (not just the center) and killed another 150,000-200,000 civilians. Maybe more, if I permit myself the same wishful thinking to which you seem addicted. Forget about them? Oh, that's right. Probably most were humane "collateral damage" from ground launched fire and thus unworthy of comparison.

    No doubt victorious Nazis would have put LeMay & company in the dock. And a great many more. Roland Freisler was very good at executions (21 year old student Sophie Scholl comes to mind – she was guillotined). Pity poor Roly was killed by – you guessed it – a nasty Allied bomb 3 Feb 1945. Life's a bitch.

    I have tragic news for you. The Nazis lost.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama Hi Incitatus,
    At about 40% still on Shirer; something that struck me was the methodical and unemotional manner in which Hitler and Goering went about purging their own ranks in the SA, when they became a hindrance in their path to winning the Wehrmacht's support. At least Rohm, perverted though he was, had the courage to defy his executioners to the very end. , @utu "How about Warsaw '44? Nazis leveled 85% of the entire city (not just the center) and killed another 150,000-200,000 civilians." - It was the other way around. People were killed during 2 months of uprising. In the early stage of uprising there were many people in some quarters (like Wola) of Warsaw massacred. But the majority of destruction of the real estate was done by looting and demolition teams after the whole population of Warsaw was evacuated in the beginning of October 1944. The fighting and aerial and artillery bombardment are responsible for about half of that 85% number. Certainly treatment given to Warsaw, an abandoned city was a sure sign of Hitler's madness in the finals stages of the III Reich.

    It is claimed that 50,000 people of Wola were executed in the first days (August 1944) of uprising by Russian Kaminski's SS brigade and Dirlewanger SS brigade consisting of criminals (dirty many dozens in Americanese). There were also executions in the course of fighting but not on the mass scale of Wola massacre. Majority of deaths were collateral damage in Americanese.

    The example of Warsaw (both 1939 and 1944) can be a very strong argument for much higher casualty rate in Dresden. The current number of 25,000 arrived by collusion of British and German historians is too low probably by factor of five. The history of history never ends. Perhaps after Brexit German historians will not have to be so accommodating to their British counterparts who would really like to reduce the casualty rate in Dresden to that of Coventry.

    It was RAF that started bombing cities with civilians being their primary targets (August 1940). Not w/o reason V in V-1 and V-2 stands for retaliation/reprisal. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  349. Incitatus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 11, 2016 at 11:59 pm GMT • 100 Words @Jonathan Revusky
    No comment on the 20,000-25,000 killed in Warsaw Sep 1939?
    WTF!!??? Why would I have any comment on that? It has nothing to do with anything we were talking about! Why would I have a comment about those people as opposed to some other tens of thousands who were killed in another battle? Anyway, something like 50 million people died in WW2, so you're suddenly asking me why I don't have a comment specifically on those people?
    Instead, more angry tears for poor Nazi granny Ursula. What a "great" champion of freedom you are!
    What are you even trying to argue? That it doesn't matter that Mrs. Haverbeck is unjustly persecuted because 20,000 Poles died 77 years ago? What does one thing have to do with the other?

    Anyway, I've been thinking.... I think we should establish some regular awards for trolls.

    For example, "Shit eater of the week". I think Boris has "Shit eater of the week" wrapped up. I mean this kind of shit, like saying that the fact that Atta had a plane ticket is proof of the official story (AND HE DID SAY IT!) this probably can't be surpassed. At least not easily.

    But you deserve a prize too. I think the prize you can win is "Ziofascist scumbag of the week". You win this for gloating over the imprisonment of an 87-year-old woman, basically just for having opinions you don't like.

    That, and insinuating that Germany has to imprison 87-year-old grannies to prevent the rise of the Fourth Reich....

    So, yes, you get a prize. You are the Ziofascist scumbag of the week. Congratulations.

    By the way, though Boris is this week's shit eater of the week, I think if we make this a regular event, the Wizard of Oz will just dominate too much. I think he should be hors concours . we can't have the same guy winning all the time. It gets monotonous.

    I think we should just give the Wizard a lifetime achievement award. Just for general shit eating and scumbaggery and mendacity. Let's face it. The man is great, he's a champion. He deserves the recognition.

    So, congratulations. There's the question of prizes. I'm thinking...

    First prize could be the book of your choice by Elie Wiesel.

    Second prize will be two books by Elie Wiesel.

    Third prize is the complete works of Elie Wiesel.

    Thank you and good night.

    Again, tears for Ursula stream uncontrollably down my face. What injustice! What perfidy! That an old hate monger is called to account for breaking laws she clearly knew and willingly violated – well , it's unthinkable!

    I'm crushed at the thought that you see me complicit as the "Ziofascist scumbag of the week." But I'm equally humbled by your favor. If I must wear the badge you've awarded me, dare I ask who you've targeted for next weeks prize? Please be sure they measure up (you've made me feel responsible for a tradition).

    PS. To make sure of a wise choice maybe you can rent a motel room and invite servile flatterer Erebus, nordic üntermensch Rurik, and reptilian L.K to join you in judging candidates. Arrange your chairs in a circle. No doubt you know the rest of the drill (don't forget your Vaseline).

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    Again, tears for Ursula stream uncontrollably down my face. What injustice! What perfidy! That an old hate monger is called to account for breaking laws she clearly knew and willingly violated – well , it's unthinkable!
    Uhh, look, shit eater, here's the situation. You're a shit eater. You're surely in competition for this week's shit eater of the week. You could dislodge Boris, who is the current reigning shit eater of the week.

    What this means, the fact that you're a shit eater, is that you NEVER think for yourself. Whatever they tell you on the TV is the truth. That's what it means to be a shit eater. Like if you read the Orwell novel 1984, you have the 2 minutes hate. They show a picture of the person you're supposed to hate and all the brainwashed shit eaters scream how much they hate the person.

    Like many other things in 1984, this was quite prescient. They tell you that you are supposed to hate somebody, like Gaddafi or Saddam, or whoever, or now it's Vladimir Putin... and all the shit eaters like you will scream how much you hate the person. Am I wrong? You are not the first A-1-A shit eater I have interacted with. I understand the shit eater mentality.

    So they show you a picture of some old lady that you are supposed to hate and so you dutifuly hate her. And you gloat that she was sentenced to prison. Note the projection here. You say Ursula Haverbeck is a hate monger, but of course, you are the hater. They tell you who you're supposed to hate and you hate that person.

    Because you're a shit eater. A Ziofascist shit eater, of the same sort who would gloat that Rachel Corrie was killed for trying to helping a Palestinian family.

    The other aspect of this is that, as a shit eater, you don't really value freedom of speech at all, because you never had an idea in your head that runs counter to the established power structure paradigm. So when you are told that somebody is a criminal for saying something that the current power structure doesn't like, that doesn't bother you, since you never had a dissenting idea in your head. And probably never will have one.

    I mean, as a champion shit eater, you've never actually thought for yourself about anything. You've never expressed an original or dissenting idea in your entire life. Never. If they tell you that two planes took down three steel framed buildings, you believe it and get angry if somebody says that is impossible.

    The third aspect of this is that you are not just a shit eater. You are a Ziofascist shit eater. So you feel this great identification with this Zionist power structure and you gloat over their ability to imprison this old lady. You guys are drunk on your power. Of course, you yourself have no particular power, but you have this vicarious identification with that power structure. This is the fascist mentality. You worship a power structure because it makes you, a total worthless nobody, feel like you're sombody.

    Now, on one point, you are correct, Ursula Haverbeck is not herself that big a deal in the overall scheme of things. I mean, the Ziofascist power structure that you adore and feel identification with, it has caused the destruction of entire countries, like Iraq or Afghanistan, and so on. Hundreds of thousands of deaths with millions of lives destroyed. So one little old lady in a jail cell unjustly isn't that big a deal compared to that.

    It's that she's a symbol nonetheless.

    The problem that people like you have, I mean the typical Ziofascist scumbag shit eater, is that you don't really understand that other people are not as vicious and vindictive as you are, so you guys make these psychopathic wisecracks about this or about Rachel Corrie and you don't quite understand how much disgust you elicit in decent, ordinary people. You just don't comprehend it.

    And then, when there eventually is a pretty severe backlash against your Ziofascist scumbag behavior, which I think is getting inevitable, you're going to be there with this: "Oy vey, why do they always hate us.... we're such sweet wonderful people..." Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  350. James Kabala says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 12:48 am GMT @SolontoCroesus
    Why . . . don't you ever mention Warsaw Sep 1939? The same number of civilians – 20,000-25,000 – were killed. Or how about Warsaw Aug 1944 (150,000-200,000 civilians killed)?
    1. estimates of Dresden dead are tendentious
    2. not all those killed in Warsaw were Jews: only Jews count. If non-Jews swell the kill-count, that diverts attention from teh eternal victim ©
    3. Real he-man Jews deride Warsaw Jews for not being sufficiently he-man. Best not to talk about it.
    4. Auschwitz has a more established brand.
    5. No gas chambers in Warsaw. Epic fail.

    I think you misunderstood his points in every respect.

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  351. Sam Shama says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 1:29 am GMT • 100 Words @Incitatus
    "Polish Wiki states that the number of dead due to aerial bombardment is impossible to establish because it cannot be separated from number of dead due to artillery shelling."
    See #365. Your concern is that a some died from shelling rather than aerial bombing? Was their death somehow more pleasant? Refer to my quote in #350: "560 tons of high explosive bombs and 72 tons of incendiary bombs, in coordination with heavy artillery shelling by Army units." Let the "in coordination with heavy artillery shelling by Army units" percolate in your mind.
    "In Dresden over 90% of city center was destroyed."
    How about Warsaw '44? Nazis leveled 85% of the entire city (not just the center) and killed another 150,000-200,000 civilians. Maybe more, if I permit myself the same wishful thinking to which you seem addicted. Forget about them? Oh, that's right. Probably most were humane "collateral damage" from ground launched fire and thus unworthy of comparison.

    No doubt victorious Nazis would have put LeMay & company in the dock. And a great many more. Roland Freisler was very good at executions (21 year old student Sophie Scholl comes to mind - she was guillotined). Pity poor Roly was killed by - you guessed it - a nasty Allied bomb 3 Feb 1945. Life's a bitch.

    I have tragic news for you. The Nazis lost.

    Hi Incitatus,
    At about 40% still on Shirer; something that struck me was the methodical and unemotional manner in which Hitler and Goering went about purging their own ranks in the SA, when they became a hindrance in their path to winning the Wehrmacht's support. At least Rohm, perverted though he was, had the courage to defy his executioners to the very end.

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  352. Sam Shama says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 1:37 am GMT @Jonathan Revusky
    No comment on the 20,000-25,000 killed in Warsaw Sep 1939?
    WTF!!??? Why would I have any comment on that? It has nothing to do with anything we were talking about! Why would I have a comment about those people as opposed to some other tens of thousands who were killed in another battle? Anyway, something like 50 million people died in WW2, so you're suddenly asking me why I don't have a comment specifically on those people?
    Instead, more angry tears for poor Nazi granny Ursula. What a "great" champion of freedom you are!
    What are you even trying to argue? That it doesn't matter that Mrs. Haverbeck is unjustly persecuted because 20,000 Poles died 77 years ago? What does one thing have to do with the other?

    Anyway, I've been thinking.... I think we should establish some regular awards for trolls.

    For example, "Shit eater of the week". I think Boris has "Shit eater of the week" wrapped up. I mean this kind of shit, like saying that the fact that Atta had a plane ticket is proof of the official story (AND HE DID SAY IT!) this probably can't be surpassed. At least not easily.

    But you deserve a prize too. I think the prize you can win is "Ziofascist scumbag of the week". You win this for gloating over the imprisonment of an 87-year-old woman, basically just for having opinions you don't like.

    That, and insinuating that Germany has to imprison 87-year-old grannies to prevent the rise of the Fourth Reich....

    So, yes, you get a prize. You are the Ziofascist scumbag of the week. Congratulations.

    By the way, though Boris is this week's shit eater of the week, I think if we make this a regular event, the Wizard of Oz will just dominate too much. I think he should be hors concours . we can't have the same guy winning all the time. It gets monotonous.

    I think we should just give the Wizard a lifetime achievement award. Just for general shit eating and scumbaggery and mendacity. Let's face it. The man is great, he's a champion. He deserves the recognition.

    So, congratulations. There's the question of prizes. I'm thinking...

    First prize could be the book of your choice by Elie Wiesel.

    Second prize will be two books by Elie Wiesel.

    Third prize is the complete works of Elie Wiesel.

    Thank you and good night.

    Just a reminder: morning dosage on an empty stomach, prior to personal recycling.

    wish you a good night now.

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  353. utu says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 2:01 am GMT • 300 Words @Incitatus
    "Polish Wiki states that the number of dead due to aerial bombardment is impossible to establish because it cannot be separated from number of dead due to artillery shelling."
    See #365. Your concern is that a some died from shelling rather than aerial bombing? Was their death somehow more pleasant? Refer to my quote in #350: "560 tons of high explosive bombs and 72 tons of incendiary bombs, in coordination with heavy artillery shelling by Army units." Let the "in coordination with heavy artillery shelling by Army units" percolate in your mind.
    "In Dresden over 90% of city center was destroyed."
    How about Warsaw '44? Nazis leveled 85% of the entire city (not just the center) and killed another 150,000-200,000 civilians. Maybe more, if I permit myself the same wishful thinking to which you seem addicted. Forget about them? Oh, that's right. Probably most were humane "collateral damage" from ground launched fire and thus unworthy of comparison.

    No doubt victorious Nazis would have put LeMay & company in the dock. And a great many more. Roland Freisler was very good at executions (21 year old student Sophie Scholl comes to mind - she was guillotined). Pity poor Roly was killed by - you guessed it - a nasty Allied bomb 3 Feb 1945. Life's a bitch.

    I have tragic news for you. The Nazis lost.

    "How about Warsaw '44? Nazis leveled 85% of the entire city (not just the center) and killed another 150,000-200,000 civilians." – It was the other way around. People were killed during 2 months of uprising. In the early stage of uprising there were many people in some quarters (like Wola) of Warsaw massacred. But the majority of destruction of the real estate was done by looting and demolition teams after the whole population of Warsaw was evacuated in the beginning of October 1944. The fighting and aerial and artillery bombardment are responsible for about half of that 85% number. Certainly treatment given to Warsaw, an abandoned city was a sure sign of Hitler's madness in the finals stages of the III Reich.

    It is claimed that 50,000 people of Wola were executed in the first days (August 1944) of uprising by Russian Kaminski's SS brigade and Dirlewanger SS brigade consisting of criminals (dirty many dozens in Americanese). There were also executions in the course of fighting but not on the mass scale of Wola massacre. Majority of deaths were collateral damage in Americanese.

    The example of Warsaw (both 1939 and 1944) can be a very strong argument for much higher casualty rate in Dresden. The current number of 25,000 arrived by collusion of British and German historians is too low probably by factor of five. The history of history never ends. Perhaps after Brexit German historians will not have to be so accommodating to their British counterparts who would really like to reduce the casualty rate in Dresden to that of Coventry.

    It was RAF that started bombing cities with civilians being their primary targets (August 1940). Not w/o reason V in V-1 and V-2 stands for retaliation/reprisal.

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  354. NosytheDuke says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 2:18 am GMT @Wizard of Oz Ron

    You may be aware that Daniel Pipes made a study of conspiracy theories and has written books on the subject - which I haven't read. I have however sampled his long list of articles which can be found here:

    http://www.daniel.pipes.org/topics/4/conspiracy-theories

    A bit like reviewing or recommending a movie, that you haven't watched.

    I must admit though that you have a decided flair for the consistently proud display of your ignorance.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz Not at all. It is much more like telling someone who is about to start research on his doctoral thesis or is already under way on what he regards as a promising reading list "here is another body of research and writing on the subject that you may not have considered" (and Daniel Pipes is not a scholar that RU would be likely to have near the top of his go to list). Moreover, if you read what I wrote before emitting you would have understood that I was saying that, whereas I couldn't assess the merits of the books, to which I merely drew attention, I had read some of his work in article form. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  355. utu says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 2:27 am GMT @Jonathan Revusky
    saying that the fact that Atta had a plane ticket is proof of the official story (AND HE DID SAY IT!)
    Then you should have no problem producing the quote.
    Dude, in comment #267 above, after my asking you what the strongest evidence available for the official story, you said (among a couple of other things that are of zero evidentiary value) "His purchase of the tickets".

    You were clearly offering that as evidence. It somehow escaped your notice that everybody else on the flight had presumably purchased tickets as well! LOL.

    But I don't get it. Don't you want your "shit eater of the week" prize? Oh, I forgot to tell you. This week's prize for shit eater of the week is a 2017 Golda Meir nude pictorial calendar!

    That's destined to be a prized collector's item.

    Surely you wouldn't want to miss out on that, would you?

    JR, what do you think of this:

    'It's been a bottomless pit': Airport worker who checked in Pentagon 9/11 hijackers despite the fact they were running late reveals his 15 years of guilt and how he became a pariah among colleagues

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3783981/Vaughn-Allex-airport-worker-checked-Pentagon-9-11-hijackers-reveals-15-years-guilt.html

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    JR, what do you think of this:
    LOL. That's just bullshit.

    They plant these stories to convince us that these hijacked flights actually took place. Certainly the plane that was hijacked and flew into the Pentagon is simply a phantom flight that never took place.

    Actually, I vaguely remembered another story in the same vein, where a check-in counter guy was wracked with guilt over having checked in Mohammed Atta (who, thanks to Boris, we know for sure hijacked a plane because he had a plane ticket).

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/11/245388/-

    This guy, Michael Tuohey, was on Oprah apparently all teary eyed, saying that he sees Mohammed Atta's face peering at him everywhere, he's haunted by it. And also that his female colleague had already committed suicide (!) she was so wracked with guilt about having checked in Mohammed Atta on the flight.

    The story makes no damned sense, does it? In the one you cite, the guy was "ostracized" by co-workers because he checked these guys in. WTF? What was he supposed to do? They had tickets, didn't they? "Oh, you Ay-rabs look just like the B movie villains in yesterday's late night movie on TV, so I'm not letting you on the flight you paid money to travel on...."

    He was supposed to know that these guys were going to fly a plane into the Pentagon, a totally unprecedented event, and therefore, his coworkers subsequently ostracize him.

    These are just synthetic narratives planted to make you think all this really happened. I should try to fish up the Michael Tuohey thing on Oprah to see if the guy is an obvious crisis actor.

    Another one they do is that there are all these celebrities who claim that they were booked on the flight but somehow missed the flight. Or some story like that. The whole idea is, again, just to convince the public that the flights actually occurred.

    Anyway, to answer your question (again) this kind of stuff is all bullshit. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  356. Erebus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 2:31 am GMT • 100 Words @Sam Shama Did you not write this?
    In any case, only one plane ever made it to prime time and much of the footage exhibits disturbing anomalies readily explained by CGI.
    In #303
    http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-how-the-cia-invented-conspiracy-theories/#comment-1563891
    ??


    You did. So isn't one supposed to understand from that statement that you favour CGI expalining what people saw, including those who viewed an impact from street level?

    So isn't one supposed to understand from that statement that you favour CGI expalining what people saw, including those who viewed an impact from street level?

    No, one is supposed to understand what the statement says, and nothing besides. What eyewitnesses on the street may or may not have seen would not normally be covered by the word "footage".

    There appear to be serious problems with the available videos – FRP nose cones emerging intact on the other side of buildings, wings disappearing behind buildings, bright flashes just prior to impact marking the impact point, the lack of camera jitter in the plane's flight path. And so on. These are all readily explained with reference to CGI, but difficult otherwise.

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  357. KA says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 2:50 am GMT • 200 Words

    The biggest hoax evererpetrated is the gradual evolution of the alleged threat from Islam . Its a multilayered multi focal interconnected open production of a vast conspiracy – achieved without any shred of evidence or even plausible reason for the existence of any such threat .

    This is a quote from an article published in 1992 and quotes 90 sources .

    " In addition, think tanks studies and op-ed pieces add momentum to the official spin. Their publication is followed by congressional hearings, policy conferences, and public press briefings. A governmental policy debate ensues, producing studies, working papers, and eventually doctrines and policies that become part of the media's spin. The new villain is now ready to be integrated into the popular culture to help to mobilize public support for a new crusade. In the case of the Green Peril, that process has been under way for several months.(13)

    THE GREEN PERIL
    Creating the Islamic Fundamentalist Threat
    Leon T Hadar ,a former bureau chief for Jerusalem Post.

    http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-177.html
    "
    WaPo, NYT, WSJ, Washington Times, ABC news and Economist all gathered the Islamic expert out of the same offices that used to house the Soviet expert ,painted them green removed the red markings and asked them to follow the direction . ( Well I made this up But that's exactly what happened .)

    • Replies: @utu "The biggest hoax ever perpetrated is the gradual evolution of the alleged threat from Islam." - Excellent point. Recently I watched few videos with Jeff Gates in which he mention influences on Samuel Huntington and mechanism how his articles and book became bestsellers. BTW, where is Jeff Gates? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  358. Erebus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 3:27 am GMT • 200 Words @Incitatus
    "I wasn't trying."
    No truer words were ever uttered. You don't really put much effort into anything, do you? Except, of course, preening like a chicken in heat.
    "You realize, of course, that your comment was utterly meaningless. I could claim to be the pilot Ogonowski's alter ego but it would mean nothing at all in the context of this debate. Nothing – at – all. Get it? No? Oh well."
    But you claimed (#304) the planes were CGI - and than no genuine planes flew into the towers. Well (I'm afraid to ask) what happened to the crew and passengers? You said they probably screwed up the plane image on WTC 7, as well as the demo sequence of WTC 2 & WTC 1. You avoided answering why WTC 7 was taken down, urging us to "let Google be your friend." Then you couldn't explain how eyewitnesses saw your 'computer generated image' planes.
    "I ignore simpleton level questions."
    Why? Because you don't have any answers. QED you're not as intellegent as a simpleton.
    "I didn't try to "explain" any "CGI theories"."
    Let me refresh your memory (#304):
    "- I have a hard time believing any planes were involved at all, so your 2nd question is moot for me, but if my guess immediately above is right, then there would have been an explosion cueing the point of impact. Perhaps that failed to go off, leaving any CGI plane simply disappearing into the building without leaving a trace. That would look rather weird, so they opted to bring it down in broad daylight hoping few would notice."
    Not trying is one thing. Lying is quite another.

    You don't really put much effort into anything, do you?

    I put my effort in 15-13 years ago. Today, indeed, I am putting less effort in. Much less in fact, but that's because the case has effectively closed.

    Well (I'm afraid to ask) what happened to the crew and passengers?

    To be sure, I have no reliable information on this, though one need not overexercise their imagination to come up with several possibilities – from sipping MaiTais in their villas in the S. Pacific, to entombed at the bottom of the N. Atlantic, and everything in between.

    But you claimed (#304) the planes were CGI – and than no genuine planes flew into the towers.

    You seem to have the same reading comprehension problems as Sharma. (See my comment to him above)

    Put another way, explaining a theory is not the same as using a theory to explain what you see.

    Anyhow, obviously you have no material points to make. You're using, word for word, the same arguments I've been hearing for 15 yrs.

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  359. utu says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 4:22 am GMT @KA The biggest hoax evererpetrated is the gradual evolution of the alleged threat from Islam . Its a multilayered multi focal interconnected open production of a vast conspiracy - achieved without any shred of evidence or even plausible reason for the existence of any such threat .

    This is a quote from an article published in 1992 and quotes 90 sources .

    " In addition, think tanks studies and op-ed pieces add momentum to the official spin. Their publication is followed by congressional hearings, policy conferences, and public press briefings. A governmental policy debate ensues, producing studies, working papers, and eventually doctrines and policies that become part of the media's spin. The new villain is now ready to be integrated into the popular culture to help to mobilize public support for a new crusade. In the case of the Green Peril, that process has been under way for several months.(13)

    THE GREEN PERIL
    Creating the Islamic Fundamentalist Threat
    Leon T Hadar ,a former bureau chief for Jerusalem Post.


    http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-177.html
    "
    WaPo, NYT, WSJ, Washington Times, ABC news and Economist all gathered the Islamic expert out of the same offices that used to house the Soviet expert ,painted them green removed the red markings and asked them to follow the direction . ( Well I made this up But that's exactly what happened .)

    "The biggest hoax ever perpetrated is the gradual evolution of the alleged threat from Islam." – Excellent point. Recently I watched few videos with Jeff Gates in which he mention influences on Samuel Huntington and mechanism how his articles and book became bestsellers. BTW, where is Jeff Gates?

    • Replies: @KA Thanks Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  360. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 7:36 am GMT • 100 Words @NosytheDuke A bit like reviewing or recommending a movie, that you haven't watched.

    I must admit though that you have a decided flair for the consistently proud display of your ignorance.

    Not at all. It is much more like telling someone who is about to start research on his doctoral thesis or is already under way on what he regards as a promising reading list "here is another body of research and writing on the subject that you may not have considered" (and Daniel Pipes is not a scholar that RU would be likely to have near the top of his go to list). Moreover, if you read what I wrote before emitting you would have understood that I was saying that, whereas I couldn't assess the merits of the books, to which I merely drew attention, I had read some of his work in article form.

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  361. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 9:35 am GMT • 300 Words @utu JR, what do you think of this:

    'It's been a bottomless pit': Airport worker who checked in Pentagon 9/11 hijackers despite the fact they were running late reveals his 15 years of guilt and how he became a pariah among colleagues

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3783981/Vaughn-Allex-airport-worker-checked-Pentagon-9-11-hijackers-reveals-15-years-guilt.html

    JR, what do you think of this:

    LOL. That's just bullshit.

    They plant these stories to convince us that these hijacked flights actually took place. Certainly the plane that was hijacked and flew into the Pentagon is simply a phantom flight that never took place.

    Actually, I vaguely remembered another story in the same vein, where a check-in counter guy was wracked with guilt over having checked in Mohammed Atta (who, thanks to Boris, we know for sure hijacked a plane because he had a plane ticket).

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/11/245388/-

    This guy, Michael Tuohey, was on Oprah apparently all teary eyed, saying that he sees Mohammed Atta's face peering at him everywhere, he's haunted by it. And also that his female colleague had already committed suicide (!) she was so wracked with guilt about having checked in Mohammed Atta on the flight.

    The story makes no damned sense, does it? In the one you cite, the guy was "ostracized" by co-workers because he checked these guys in. WTF? What was he supposed to do? They had tickets, didn't they? "Oh, you Ay-rabs look just like the B movie villains in yesterday's late night movie on TV, so I'm not letting you on the flight you paid money to travel on ."

    He was supposed to know that these guys were going to fly a plane into the Pentagon, a totally unprecedented event, and therefore, his coworkers subsequently ostracize him.

    These are just synthetic narratives planted to make you think all this really happened. I should try to fish up the Michael Tuohey thing on Oprah to see if the guy is an obvious crisis actor.

    Another one they do is that there are all these celebrities who claim that they were booked on the flight but somehow missed the flight. Or some story like that. The whole idea is, again, just to convince the public that the flights actually occurred.

    Anyway, to answer your question (again) this kind of stuff is all bullshit.

    • Replies: @Boris Of course everyone else is lying according to the person who has lied brazenly multiple times about comments written on this very page.

    I look forward to jonny's next Unz.com article "The Shitting Shit-Eaters and the Shitty Shit They Eat: How Boris Thinks a Plane Ticket Proves That Atta Wasn't a Hologram-Lizard, LOL!"

    Professional. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  362. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 10:04 am GMT • 700 Words @Incitatus Again, tears for Ursula stream uncontrollably down my face. What injustice! What perfidy! That an old hate monger is called to account for breaking laws she clearly knew and willingly violated - well , it's unthinkable!

    I'm crushed at the thought that you see me complicit as the "Ziofascist scumbag of the week." But I'm equally humbled by your favor. If I must wear the badge you've awarded me, dare I ask who you've targeted for next weeks prize? Please be sure they measure up (you've made me feel responsible for a tradition).

    PS. To make sure of a wise choice maybe you can rent a motel room and invite servile flatterer Erebus, nordic üntermensch Rurik, and reptilian L.K to join you in judging candidates. Arrange your chairs in a circle. No doubt you know the rest of the drill (don't forget your Vaseline).

    Again, tears for Ursula stream uncontrollably down my face. What injustice! What perfidy! That an old hate monger is called to account for breaking laws she clearly knew and willingly violated – well , it's unthinkable!

    Uhh, look, shit eater, here's the situation. You're a shit eater. You're surely in competition for this week's shit eater of the week. You could dislodge Boris, who is the current reigning shit eater of the week.

    What this means, the fact that you're a shit eater, is that you NEVER think for yourself. Whatever they tell you on the TV is the truth. That's what it means to be a shit eater. Like if you read the Orwell novel 1984, you have the 2 minutes hate. They show a picture of the person you're supposed to hate and all the brainwashed shit eaters scream how much they hate the person.

    Like many other things in 1984, this was quite prescient. They tell you that you are supposed to hate somebody, like Gaddafi or Saddam, or whoever, or now it's Vladimir Putin and all the shit eaters like you will scream how much you hate the person. Am I wrong? You are not the first A-1-A shit eater I have interacted with. I understand the shit eater mentality.

    So they show you a picture of some old lady that you are supposed to hate and so you dutifuly hate her. And you gloat that she was sentenced to prison. Note the projection here. You say Ursula Haverbeck is a hate monger, but of course, you are the hater. They tell you who you're supposed to hate and you hate that person.

    Because you're a shit eater. A Ziofascist shit eater, of the same sort who would gloat that Rachel Corrie was killed for trying to helping a Palestinian family.

    The other aspect of this is that, as a shit eater, you don't really value freedom of speech at all, because you never had an idea in your head that runs counter to the established power structure paradigm. So when you are told that somebody is a criminal for saying something that the current power structure doesn't like, that doesn't bother you, since you never had a dissenting idea in your head. And probably never will have one.

    I mean, as a champion shit eater, you've never actually thought for yourself about anything. You've never expressed an original or dissenting idea in your entire life. Never. If they tell you that two planes took down three steel framed buildings, you believe it and get angry if somebody says that is impossible.

    The third aspect of this is that you are not just a shit eater. You are a Ziofascist shit eater. So you feel this great identification with this Zionist power structure and you gloat over their ability to imprison this old lady. You guys are drunk on your power. Of course, you yourself have no particular power, but you have this vicarious identification with that power structure. This is the fascist mentality. You worship a power structure because it makes you, a total worthless nobody, feel like you're sombody.

    Now, on one point, you are correct, Ursula Haverbeck is not herself that big a deal in the overall scheme of things. I mean, the Ziofascist power structure that you adore and feel identification with, it has caused the destruction of entire countries, like Iraq or Afghanistan, and so on. Hundreds of thousands of deaths with millions of lives destroyed. So one little old lady in a jail cell unjustly isn't that big a deal compared to that.

    It's that she's a symbol nonetheless.

    The problem that people like you have, I mean the typical Ziofascist scumbag shit eater, is that you don't really understand that other people are not as vicious and vindictive as you are, so you guys make these psychopathic wisecracks about this or about Rachel Corrie and you don't quite understand how much disgust you elicit in decent, ordinary people. You just don't comprehend it.

    And then, when there eventually is a pretty severe backlash against your Ziofascist scumbag behavior, which I think is getting inevitable, you're going to be there with this: "Oy vey, why do they always hate us . we're such sweet wonderful people "

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  363. KA says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 12:37 pm GMT @utu "The biggest hoax ever perpetrated is the gradual evolution of the alleged threat from Islam." - Excellent point. Recently I watched few videos with Jeff Gates in which he mention influences on Samuel Huntington and mechanism how his articles and book became bestsellers. BTW, where is Jeff Gates?

    Thanks

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  364. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 1:20 pm GMT • 100 Words @Jonathan Revusky
    saying that the fact that Atta had a plane ticket is proof of the official story (AND HE DID SAY IT!)
    Then you should have no problem producing the quote.
    Dude, in comment #267 above, after my asking you what the strongest evidence available for the official story, you said (among a couple of other things that are of zero evidentiary value) "His purchase of the tickets".

    You were clearly offering that as evidence. It somehow escaped your notice that everybody else on the flight had presumably purchased tickets as well! LOL.

    But I don't get it. Don't you want your "shit eater of the week" prize? Oh, I forgot to tell you. This week's prize for shit eater of the week is a 2017 Golda Meir nude pictorial calendar!

    That's destined to be a prized collector's item.

    Surely you wouldn't want to miss out on that, would you?

    after my asking you what the strongest evidence available for the official story

    As I've already shown, you asked me "what records?" The ticket is among the records that support the official story. It is sad that you keep lying about this. We both agree–and have from the beginning–that the ticket is necessary, but not sufficient. You keep pretending otherwise for some reason. Your behavior is downright weird.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    As I've already shown, you asked me "what records?"
    WTF is your point? What was said is perfectly clear. I asked you what the strongest available evidence was for the official story and you said there were records blah blah and I asked what records are you talking about. OBVIOUSLY that meant what records are you talking about that constitute proof of the official story ?

    And then, among a few other equally worthless things, you said "His purchase of the tickets."

    The ticket is among the records that support the official story.
    Well, you see, there you go again...

    Look, you are great, you are a champion shit eater and you are the reigning shit eater of the week. BUT... let me make something clear to you, champ....

    This idea that Atta having a plane ticket constitutes proof of anything really is a breathtaking piece of bullshit. My hat is off to you. You are great. But still, you have to come up with some new bullshit to win this week's shit eater of the week award. You cannot use the same bullshit to win that won you last week's prize to win this week. You have to come up with some new bullshit.

    I know you're up to it. You have the makings of a great champion. , @KA "The creation of a peril usually starts with mysterious "sources" and unnamed officials who leak information, float trial balloons, and warn about the coming threat. Those sources reflect debates and discussions taking place within government. Their information is then augmented by colorful intelligence reports that finger exotic and conspiratorial terrorists and military advisers. Journalists then search for the named and other villains. The media end up finding corroboration from foreign sources who form an informal coalition with the sources in the U.S. government and help the press uncover further information substantiating the threat coming from the new bad guys.


    A series of leaks, signals, and trial balloons is already beginning to shape U.S. agenda and policy. Congress is about to conduct several hearings on the global threat of Islamic fundamentalism.(14) The Bush administration has been trying to devise policies and establish new alliances to counter Iranian influence: building up Islamic but secular and pro-Western Turkey as a countervailing force in Central Asia, expanding U.S. commitments to Saudi Arabia, warning Sudan that it faces grave consequences as a result of its policies, and even shoring up a socialist military dictatorship in Algeria.


    http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-177

    Printing a ticket and getting a Pasport ,if all that you have,then you are in the right league . Join those in NYT,WaPo,Hoover Institue and speak to George Will, Jim Hoagland , because following the collapse of Soviet,they have been looking for an enemy that they were finding raising its heads in Algeria, Iran, Sudan,and even in Malayasia back in 1992.


    Conspiracy theory- is absolutely commonplace but rendered a bogus term . It is common and practiced by the government all the time . It is used by people who have agenda and find resistance to agenda . The moment they use false narrative,weird scenario, create unknown fear and offer solution abusing the authorities,abusing the institutional but previous records and inserting propangada preaching journalist ( CIA had more than 400 in 1975 per Bernstein) , they are engaging in conspiracy . It follows a script. So it has a theory to follow . It is a conspiracy theory. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  365. Rurik says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 1:23 pm GMT • 200 Words @Wizard of Oz I ask you as just the latest person to assert on UR that something - in this case the collapse of WTC 7 - is "an anomaly to all known laws of physics and structural engineering" or similar wotds which plainly mean that such laws make the collapse without deliberate demolition impossible....*what are your qualifations to be taken seriously on the implications of the laws of physics and structural engineering*? I have dealt with a lot of expert witnesse and you don't sound like one of them,not even the dodgy ones that have to be exposed and evaluated in court every day. Indeed do you consider yourself competent to evaluate expert evidence on physics and structural engineering like a judge assisted by the questions of counsel? If so why? Try persuading your readers.

    .*what are your qualifations to be taken seriously on the implications of the laws of physics and structural engineering*?

    I rest on my laurels wiz

    we've both participated on this site for some time now. In my case clearly and obviously in an attempt to get at the truth in all things. In your case, -to obfuscate the truth- about any issue you find inconvenient to the status quo- vis-a-vis the PTB. I believe this is obvious to everyone here who's been paying attention at all.

    What you do wiz, is scan these pages for any signs of some ingenuousness, and then you proceed to reel them into your web, with innocent sounding queries, and then when they're engaged in an exchange with you, you drop a manure wagon of legerdemain on their heads, obviously finding amusement in your own 'cleverness and artfulness'. I suppose you imagine you're being cagey, but to the rest of us you just come across as a mean-spirited, sadistic little prick.

    Now why, I ask you, would I ever feel the inclination so qualify myself to the likes of you, eh?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz Unfofortunately your resting on your laurels means we've never seen them.

    I could say that I was merely trying to draw out of you some positive reason for your readers to be persuaded by the authority of your assertions. But someone might have a case for calling me disingenuousness. After all I am 99 per cent sure that you have absolutely no qualifications either in knowledge or reasoning power to give any authority to your confident assertions about physics or structural engineering. So I now put THAT forward as my contribution to your readers' ability to assess your comments in the absence of your willingness to display your professional laurels. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  366. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 1:34 pm GMT • 100 Words @Jonathan Revusky
    JR, what do you think of this:
    LOL. That's just bullshit.

    They plant these stories to convince us that these hijacked flights actually took place. Certainly the plane that was hijacked and flew into the Pentagon is simply a phantom flight that never took place.

    Actually, I vaguely remembered another story in the same vein, where a check-in counter guy was wracked with guilt over having checked in Mohammed Atta (who, thanks to Boris, we know for sure hijacked a plane because he had a plane ticket).

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/11/245388/-

    This guy, Michael Tuohey, was on Oprah apparently all teary eyed, saying that he sees Mohammed Atta's face peering at him everywhere, he's haunted by it. And also that his female colleague had already committed suicide (!) she was so wracked with guilt about having checked in Mohammed Atta on the flight.

    The story makes no damned sense, does it? In the one you cite, the guy was "ostracized" by co-workers because he checked these guys in. WTF? What was he supposed to do? They had tickets, didn't they? "Oh, you Ay-rabs look just like the B movie villains in yesterday's late night movie on TV, so I'm not letting you on the flight you paid money to travel on...."

    He was supposed to know that these guys were going to fly a plane into the Pentagon, a totally unprecedented event, and therefore, his coworkers subsequently ostracize him.

    These are just synthetic narratives planted to make you think all this really happened. I should try to fish up the Michael Tuohey thing on Oprah to see if the guy is an obvious crisis actor.

    Another one they do is that there are all these celebrities who claim that they were booked on the flight but somehow missed the flight. Or some story like that. The whole idea is, again, just to convince the public that the flights actually occurred.

    Anyway, to answer your question (again) this kind of stuff is all bullshit.

    Of course everyone else is lying according to the person who has lied brazenly multiple times about comments written on this very page.

    I look forward to jonny's next Unz.com article "The Shitting Shit-Eaters and the Shitty Shit They Eat: How Boris Thinks a Plane Ticket Proves That Atta Wasn't a Hologram-Lizard, LOL!"

    Professional.

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  367. Rurik says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 2:26 pm GMT • 500 Words @Incitatus
    "if the Nazis burned women and children alive for the fun of it, then by God I tell you I would condemn them with all of my breath, I swear it. But they didn't do that."
    Well, Rurik, here's your chance to condemn them:

    "...starting at 0800 on 25 September [1939], Luftwaffe bombers under the command of Major Wolfram Freiherr von Richthofen conducted the largest air raid ever seen by that time, dropping 560 tons of high explosive bombs and 72 tons of incendiary bombs, in coordination with heavy artillery shelling by Army units."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Warsaw_in_World_War_II

    Note the "72 tons of incendiary bombs." 20,000-25,000 civilians died. Surprised? Later on, beginning August 1944 the Nazis really got busy. By January 1945 they'd leveled 85% of the city and killed another 150,000-200,000 civilians.

    How about Rotterdam May 1940? 884 civilians killed, 85,000 left homeless:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotterdam_Blitz

    How about Guernica April 1937? They bombed it on market day, when packed with civilians. They used incendiaries. 170-300 civilians died. The city was largely destroyed:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Guernica

    How about Lidice June 1942? 173 men executed on the spot. 203 women and 105 children taken to concentration camps (four pregnant women were first forced to have abortions). The village was leveled. The Nazis killed all the animals and even dug up the remains in the cemetery!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice_massacre

    How about Oradour-sur-Glane Jun 1944? 642 civilians murdered and -wait for it - women and children deliberately burned to death.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane_massacre

    There are other examples. Oh those poor, poor Nazis.

    Don't forget your promise to "condemn them [Nazis] with all of my breath."

    OK, I checked out the first of your links, (and admittedly from the obviously biased Wikipedia)

    this is the kind of thing I found out


    The Polish Army surrendered nearly 140,000 troops and during the siege around 18,000 civilians of Warsaw perished. As a result of the air bombardments 10% of the city's buildings were entirely destroyed and further 40% were heavily damaged.[1]:78

    now this is what I said:

    "anyone who burns women and children alive for the fun of it and out of sheer tribal hatred, rather than as a military and existential imperative, is a monster in my book"

    so what you have was strategic bombing of a city (a war crime in my book but then I never said the Nazis were boy scouts) for a clear military objective. That's not what I'm talking about.

    Imagine if Germany had already defeated the Poles, and Poland was on the brink, and had effectively lost the war, and Warsaw was turned into a refugee city with tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of refugees huddling there as their last sanctuary. There would have been no military age men there, as they would have all died in the war by now, and the city was overflowing with women and children (and POW camps and such). OK? And then imagine the kind of people that would plan, not just an attack in order to break the moral of the enemy, (it had already long been broken), but rather as a calculated act of sheer inhuman cruelty, intended to burn alive every single old man, woman and child until there was nothing left of either the people or the (beautiful, ancient Baroque architecture and art of the) city. It was a true holocaust, intended as an act of sadistic vengeance upon harmless people to sate an insatiable need to inflict unimaginable suffering and cruelty for cruelties' sake. Just like Waco. And for the same reason, – they defied the power of their 'masters', and for that, they would be made to pay.

    Did the Nazis ever do anything like that? Did they ever deliberately burn hundreds of thousands of civilians alive for no military purpose whatsoever? But just to be as cruel as possible?

    I guess that's the word I'm really thinking of there. Cruelty. Because as that quote you posted showed, the Nazis at their worst were trying to murder people as humanely as possible, whereas the allies wanted to inflict the most suffering on the most innocent and vulnerable women and children as possible. They wanted to burn women and children alive who were no threat and at the virtual end of the war. What kind of people do something like that?

    Reading the Old Testament, I get an idea of where they get their demonic hate from.

    One on my mantras Incitatus, is that a lot of the raw hate in the world today (and certainly yesterday) comes from religious ignorance and a cartoon version of the world that says the followers of this religion are pure good, and the followers of that religion are pure evil. I sort of wonder what things would be like if we'd finally lay to rest these pernicious and stone age codified ignorance down, and joined the 21st century as rational actors

    • Agree: SolontoCroesus • Replies: @utu Very good comment. , @SolontoCroesus
    a lot of the raw hate in the world today (and certainly yesterday) comes from religious ignorance and a cartoon version of the world that says the followers of this religion are pure good, and the followers of that religion are pure evil. I sort of wonder what things would be like if we'd finally lay to rest these pernicious and stone age codified ignorance down, and joined the 21st century as rational actors
    http://rappnews.com/2016/05/19/as-the-world-turns-and-the-stones-speak/148387/

    John Henry's "Arguing with God." . . . reenacts Old Testament stories to confront uncomfortable truths about human nature and explores the psychology of how empires are built by "Chosen People," "good guys" who believe they have the moral right to use military force against "bad guys." Produced in the dramatic outdoor setting of hand-laid stone, which Henry built himself, "Arguing with God" depicts the inevitable conflict between power and justice.

    The cast is 50-actor strong, with many of the leading roles played by [Henry's neighbors and friends]. .

    (Max Blumenthal played Adam, aka "guys just wanna have fun" in a recent presentation of John Henry's play.) Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  368. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 2:33 pm GMT • 200 Words @Boris
    after my asking you what the strongest evidence available for the official story
    As I've already shown, you asked me "what records?" The ticket is among the records that support the official story. It is sad that you keep lying about this. We both agree--and have from the beginning--that the ticket is necessary, but not sufficient. You keep pretending otherwise for some reason. Your behavior is downright weird.

    As I've already shown, you asked me "what records?"

    WTF is your point? What was said is perfectly clear. I asked you what the strongest available evidence was for the official story and you said there were records blah blah and I asked what records are you talking about. OBVIOUSLY that meant what records are you talking about that constitute proof of the official story ?

    And then, among a few other equally worthless things, you said "His purchase of the tickets."

    The ticket is among the records that support the official story.

    Well, you see, there you go again

    Look, you are great, you are a champion shit eater and you are the reigning shit eater of the week. BUT let me make something clear to you, champ .

    This idea that Atta having a plane ticket constitutes proof of anything really is a breathtaking piece of bullshit. My hat is off to you. You are great. But still, you have to come up with some new bullshit to win this week's shit eater of the week award. You cannot use the same bullshit to win that won you last week's prize to win this week. You have to come up with some new bullshit.

    I know you're up to it. You have the makings of a great champion.

    • Replies: @Boris Well, obviously the ticket disproves your CGI planes theory. I've never seen a ticket for a CGI plane. Have you? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  369. Rurik says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 2:47 pm GMT • 300 Words @L.K Well, Rurik,

    You are discussing these issues with an obvious troll, 'incitatus', a piece of filth who is here to spread disinformation & propaganda & who obviously does not care one bit about truth or free speech. Remember that other scumbag, 'iffen', who hoped for European style censorship to be applied in the US?

    These cretins are so obvious.

    No, Rurik, the National Socialists did NOT run extermination camps.

    Do u still have doubts?

    As Prof.Faurisson said, on the intellectual level, the revisionists have already won.
    It is just that people ain't allowed to know it... in fact, people are not allowed to even know there is a debate on the holohoax.

    Why, Rurik, do I say the holocau$t is a monstrous Hoax?

    As Prof.T.Dalton wrote:

    There are, in fact, three essential elements to the event called the Holocaust:
    (1) intention to mass murder the Jews, by Hitler and the Nazi elite;
    (2) the use of gas chambers(the extermination camps & gas vans); and
    (3) the 6 million deaths.

    If any one of these three should undergo substantial revision, then, technically speaking, we no longer have "The Holocaust"-at least, not in any meaningful sense. (Broadly speaking, of course, any mass fatality is a holocaust.) Holocaust revisionism contends that, not one, but all three of these points are grossly in error, and thus that "The Holocaust," as such, did not occur. Obviously, this is not to deny that a tragedy happened to the Jews, nor that many thousands died, directly and indirectly, as a result of the war. But the conventional account is an extreme exaggeration.

    Most people are led to believe - I was one of them - in regards to the 'holocau$t', that there is abundant proof of the alleged crime, as described above.
    This is absolutely NOT THE CASE.

    In fact, many holocaust 'historians', I call them quacks, have actually admitted the near total lack of material and documentary evidence.
    There is, as the revisionist side has shown, an abundance of evidence refuting the official dossier, which is basically atrocity propaganda on steroids.

    One good book that covers all bases in a more accessible format is "Lectures on the Holocaust
    Controversial Issues Cross Examined" by Germar Rudolf.
    http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/15-loth.pdf

    http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?main_page=1

    Hey L.K.,

    holocau$t is a monstrous Hoax?

    I think you're right about some of the trolls here, or so it seems to me

    but this is the thing vis-a-vis the Holocau$t. I don't like calling the whole thing a hoax, because then it sort of looks like you're suggesting that NONE of any of that stuff happened, when I believe that it's clear that Jews (and many others) were systematically persecuted by the Nazis for being Jews, and not necessarily for any crimes they committed. Just like the Japanese in the US during the war. If they Japanese claimed there were gas chambers at the camps where they were held, then I think it would be fair and prudent to examine those claims for veracity, just as in the case of the Holocaust- where I don't think they had homicidal gas chambers for human extermination purposes. But that doesn't change the fact that many people perished in those camps, and many of them were innocent Jews, and if the Jews want to call that particular suffering a name to commemorate it, just like what the Japanese went through, then I don't see what's wrong with that per se.

    That it has become this momentous blood libel against the German people in particular and all Gentiles in general is just another testament to the power of the lobby.

    Controlling the world's banks and money supply and therefor all the media of consequence and all the major politicians (and publishing houses and courts and universities, etc..) has had an effect on things. The Eternal WarsⓊ being perhaps the most troublesome for the moment.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz I wouldn't be inclined to question an assertion that there are many Jews in senior positions in investment banks but in the commercial banking sphere which I understand to have much more to do with the money supply than the entrepreneurial investment or merchant bankers do I am unaware of any great Jewish presence. Should I be? Who and where are they? I note that Goldman Sachs was only an investment bank until 2009. , @Sam Shama
    I believe that it's clear that Jews (and many others) were systematically persecuted by the Nazis for being Jews, and not necessarily for any crimes they committed.
    [...]
    But that doesn't change the fact that many people perished in those camps, and many of them were innocent Jews, and if the Jews want to call that particular suffering a name to commemorate it, just like what the Japanese went through, then I don't see what's wrong with that per se.
    Rurik,
    As I've said in some previous posts, you have an admirable capacity for gleaning the essence of some important subjects. The aforementioned, more or less my own feelings about the Holocaust, was an event which occurred in the midst of a period that saw tens of millions slaughtered. They were certainly not just Jews. To be frank I never dwelt on the subject too much in my adult life, [even though the real experience of what happened to my kin is very close to me - my granny, whom I spare the ordeal these days of retelling her life events; and she holds no grudge, none at all] i.e., until I stumbled upon the Unz Review last year. This publication seems to be rife with discussions, of which, the ultimate goals are clear; and I needn't explicate the obvious. So again, I am completely unfamiliar with this charge of people exploiting the Holocaust for personal gains. I really don't know any.

    Furthermore there is no blood libel on Germans. Nazis, on the other hand were 'no boy scouts' indeed! We all relate to personal experiences. So in my case, my work brings me in contact with a large number of Europeans and Germans. I can tell you nothing but positive things about my contacts [on a lighter note I've dated German girls and they are a fun loving lot].

    There is perhaps a grain of truth in what you say regarding what has become verboten in polite society, and by extension in the media. I hardly think any decent, educated person would use the 'n' word e.g. Its an assault on basic humanity. So is calling an Asian, A Jew, an Arab, A muslim, A White man or a woman by derogatory terms. Its simply not done in this day an age [more generally I am revolted by some of the verbal obscenity that goes on here, led by Revusky, a man I lament to admit a co-religionist] . More specifically, I am against any laws that stifle free speech and expression. So if certain laws are oppressive, the majoritarian system that created those in the first place, ought to be utilised to render them null and void post partum. [In the case of Ursula H., there is more to her story than meets the eye. She had been held in contempt of court on a few occasions, having used her age and the fragility associated with it, to provoke the legal/judicial system, when the judges finally threw the book at her. They will brook defiance of the law up to a certain extent and no more. Still, I understand it is galling to witness a granny thrown in gaol for nothing more than revisionist activism. Who made those laws?]

    Jews don't control the world's money supply. A person like you ought to rid yourself of this risible notion. [Its a discussion we've had often and let's avoid it this time shall we? btw I commented on Mike Whitney's piece apropos, and we might continue on this subject there if you so wish]

    cheers. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  370. KA says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 2:58 pm GMT • 400 Words @Boris
    after my asking you what the strongest evidence available for the official story
    As I've already shown, you asked me "what records?" The ticket is among the records that support the official story. It is sad that you keep lying about this. We both agree--and have from the beginning--that the ticket is necessary, but not sufficient. You keep pretending otherwise for some reason. Your behavior is downright weird.

    "The creation of a peril usually starts with mysterious "sources" and unnamed officials who leak information, float trial balloons, and warn about the coming threat. Those sources reflect debates and discussions taking place within government. Their information is then augmented by colorful intelligence reports that finger exotic and conspiratorial terrorists and military advisers. Journalists then search for the named and other villains. The media end up finding corroboration from foreign sources who form an informal coalition with the sources in the U.S. government and help the press uncover further information substantiating the threat coming from the new bad guys.

    A series of leaks, signals, and trial balloons is already beginning to shape U.S. agenda and policy. Congress is about to conduct several hearings on the global threat of Islamic fundamentalism.(14) The Bush administration has been trying to devise policies and establish new alliances to counter Iranian influence: building up Islamic but secular and pro-Western Turkey as a countervailing force in Central Asia, expanding U.S. commitments to Saudi Arabia, warning Sudan that it faces grave consequences as a result of its policies, and even shoring up a socialist military dictatorship in Algeria.

    http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-177

    Printing a ticket and getting a Pasport ,if all that you have,then you are in the right league . Join those in NYT,WaPo,Hoover Institue and speak to George Will, Jim Hoagland , because following the collapse of Soviet,they have been looking for an enemy that they were finding raising its heads in Algeria, Iran, Sudan,and even in Malayasia back in 1992.

    Conspiracy theory- is absolutely commonplace but rendered a bogus term . It is common and practiced by the government all the time . It is used by people who have agenda and find resistance to agenda . The moment they use false narrative,weird scenario, create unknown fear and offer solution abusing the authorities,abusing the institutional but previous records and inserting propangada preaching journalist ( CIA had more than 400 in 1975 per Bernstein) , they are engaging in conspiracy . It follows a script. So it has a theory to follow . It is a conspiracy theory.

    • Replies: @Boris
    Printing a ticket and getting a Pasport ,if all that you have,then you are in the right league
    You are falling for Jonny's schtick:

    Here are some lengthy bits from Atta's Wiki page:


    On April 11, 1996, Atta signed his last will and testament at the mosque, officially declaring his Muslim beliefs and giving 18 instructions regarding his burial.[9][40] This was the day that Israel attacked Lebanon in Operation Grapes of Wrath, which outraged Atta. Signing the will, "offering his life" was Atta's response.[41] The instructions in his last will and testament reflect both Sunni funeral practices, along with some more puritanical demands from Salafism, including asking people not "to weep and cry" or show emotion. The will was signed by el-Motassadeq and a second individual at the mosque.[42]

    After leaving Plankontor in the summer of 1997, Atta disappeared again and did not return until 1998. Atta phoned his graduate advisor in 1998, after a year of doing nothing for his thesis, telling Machule that he had family problems at home and said, "Please understand, I don't want to talk about this."[43][44] At the winter break in 1997, Atta left and did not return to Hamburg for three months. He said that he went on pilgrimage to Mecca again, just 18 months after his first time. Terry McDermott explained in Perfect Soldiers that it is highly unusual and unlikely for someone, especially a young student, to go on Hajj again that soon. Also, three months is an exceptionally long time, much longer than what Hajj requires. When Atta returned, he claimed that his passport was lost and got a new one, which is a common tactic to erase evidence of travel to places such as Afghanistan.[45] When he returned in spring 1998, after disappearing for several months, he had grown a thick long beard, and "seemed more serious and aloof" to those who knew him.[28]

    In mid-1998, Atta worked alongside Shehhi, bin al-Shibh, and Belfas, at a warehouse, packing computers in crates for shipping.[46] The Hamburg group did not stay in Wilhelmsburg for long. The next winter, they moved into an apartment at Marienstrasse 54 in the borough of Harburg, near the Technical University of Hamburg,[47] at which they enrolled. It was here that the Hamburg cell developed and acted more as a group.[48] They met three or four times a week to discuss their anti-American feelings and to plot possible attacks. Many al-Qaeda members lived in this apartment at various times, including hijacker Marwan al-Shehhi, Zakariya Essabar, and others.

    In late 1999, Atta, Shehhi, Jarrah, Bahaji, and bin al-Shibh decided to travel to Chechnya to fight against the Russians, but were convinced by Khalid al-Masri and Mohamedou Ould Slahi at the last minute to change their plans. They instead traveled to Afghanistan over a two-week period in late November. On November 29, 1999, Mohamed Atta boarded Turkish Airlines Flight TK1662 from Hamburg to Istanbul, where he changed to flight TK1056 to Karachi, Pakistan.[3] After they arrived, they were selected by Al Qaeda leader Abu Hafs as suitable candidates for the "planes operation" plot. They were all well-educated, had experience of living in western society, along with some English skills, and would be able to obtain visas.[41] Even before bin al-Shibh had arrived, Atta, Shehhi, and Jarrah were sent to the House of Ghamdi near bin Laden's home in Kandahar, where he was waiting to meet them. Bin Laden asked them to pledge loyalty and commit to suicide missions, which Atta and the other three Hamburg men all accepted. Bin Laden sent them to see Mohammed Atef to get a general overview of the mission, and then they were sent to Karachi to see Khalid Sheikh Mohammed to go over specifics.[49]

    German investigators said that they had evidence that Mohamed Atta trained at al-Qaeda camps in Afghanistan from late 1999 to early 2000. The timing of the Afghanistan training was outlined on August 23, 2002 by a senior investigator. The investigator, Klaus Ulrich Kersten, director of Germany's federal anticrime agency, the Bundeskriminalamt, provided the first official confirmation that Atta and two other pilots had been in Afghanistan and the first dates of the training. Kersten said in an interview at the agency's headquarters in Wiesbaden, Germany, that Atta was in Afghanistan from late 1999 until early 2000,[50][51] and that there was evidence that Atta met with Osama bin Laden there.[52]

    A video surfaced in October 2006 which showed bin Laden at Tarnak Farms on January 8, 2000, and also showed Atta together with Ziad Jarrah reading their wills ten days later on January 18, 2000.[3][53]

    According to official reports, Atta arrived on June 3, 2000, at Newark International Airport from Prague. That month, Atta and Shehhi stayed in hotels and rented rooms in New York City on a short-term basis. They continued to inquire about flight schools and personally visited some, including Airman Flight School in Norman, Oklahoma, which they visited on July 3, 2000. Days later, Shehhi and Atta ended up in Venice, Florida (On the Gulf Coast of South Florida).[15] Atta and Shehhi established accounts at SunTrust Bank and received wire transfers from Ali Abdul Aziz Ali, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's nephew in the United Arab Emirates.[15][57] On July 6, 2000, Atta and Shehhi enrolled at Huffman Aviation in Venice, Florida, where they entered the Accelerated Pilot Program, while Ziad Jarrah took flight training from a different school also based in Venice.[15] When Atta and Shehhi arrived in Florida, they initially stayed with Huffman's bookkeeper and his wife in a spare room of their house. After a week, they were asked to leave because they were rude. Atta and Shehhi then moved into a small house nearby in Nokomis where they stayed for six months.[63][64]
    Atta's flight record from Huffman

    Atta began flight training on July 7, 2000, and continued training nearly every day. By the end of July, both Atta and Shehhi did solo flights. Atta earned his private pilot certificate in September, and then he and Shehhi decided to switch flight schools. Both enrolled at Jones Aviation in Sarasota and took training there for a brief time. They had problems following instructions and were both very upset when they failed their Stage 1 exam at Jones Aviation. They inquired about multi-engine planes and told the instructor that "they wanted to move quickly, because they had a job waiting in their country upon completion of their training in the U.S." In mid-October, Atta and Shehhi returned to Huffman Aviation to continue training. In November 2000, Atta earned his instrument rating, and then a commercial pilot's license in December from the Federal Aviation Administration.[15]

    Atta continued with flight training, including solo flights and simulator time. On December 22, Atta and Shehhi applied to Eagle International for large jet and simulator training for McDonnell Douglas DC-9 and Boeing 737–300 models. On December 26, Atta and Shehhi needed a tow for their rented Piper Cherokee on a taxiway of Miami International Airport after the engine shut down. On December 29 and 30, Atta and Marwan went to the Opa-locka Airport where they practiced on a Boeing 727 simulator, and they obtained Boeing 767 simulator training from Pan Am International on December 31. Atta purchased flight deck videos for Boeing 747–200, Boeing 757–200, Airbus A320 and Boeing 767-300ER models via mail-order from Sporty's Pilot Shop in Batavia, Ohio in November and December 2000.[15]

    On July 22, 2001, Mohamed Atta rented a Mitsubishi Galant from Alamo Rent A Car, putting 3,836 miles on the vehicle before returning it on July 26. On July 25, Atta dropped Ziad Jarrah off at Miami International Airport for a flight back to Germany. On July 26, Atta traveled via Continental Airlines to Newark, New Jersey, checked into the Kings Inn Hotel in Wayne, New Jersey and stayed there until July 30 when he took a flight from Newark back to Fort Lauderdale.[15]

    On August 4, Atta is believed to have been at Orlando International Airport waiting to pick up suspected "20th Hijacker" Mohammed al-Qahtani from Dubai, who ended up being held by immigration as "suspicious." Atta was believed to have used a payphone at the airport to phone a number "linked to al-Qaeda" after Qahtani was denied entry.[75]

    On August 6, Atta and Shehhi rented a 1995 white, four door Ford Escort from Warrick's Rent-A-Car, which was returned on August 13. On August 6, Atta booked a flight on Spirit Airlines from Fort Lauderdale to Newark, leaving on August 7 and returning on August 9. The reservation was not used and canceled on August 9 with the reason "Family Medical Emergency". Instead, he went to Central Office & Travel in Pompano Beach to purchase a ticket for a flight to Newark, leaving on the evening of August 7 and schedule to return in the evening on August 9. Atta did not take the return flight. On August 7, Atta checked into the Wayne Inn in Wayne, New Jersey and checked out on August 9. The same day, he booked a one-way first class ticket via the Internet on America West Flight 244 from Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport to Las Vegas.[15] Atta traveled twice to Las Vegas on "surveillance flights" rehearsing how the 9/11 attacks would be carried out. Other hijackers traveled to Las Vegas at different times in the summer of 2001.

    Throughout the summer, Atta met with Nawaf al-Hazmi to discuss the status of the operation on a monthly basis.[76]

    On August 23, Atta's driver license was revoked in absentia after he failed to show up in traffic court to answer the earlier citation for driving without a license.[77] On the same day, Israeli Mossad reportedly gave his name to the CIA as part of a list of 19 names they said were planning an attack in the near future. Only four of the names are known for certain, the others being Marwan al-Shehhi, Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi.[78]

    On September 10, 2001, Atta picked up Omari from the Milner Hotel in Boston, Massachusetts, and the two drove their rented Nissan Altima to a Comfort Inn in South Portland, Maine; on the way they were seen getting gasoline at an Exxon Gas Station. They arrived at 5:43 pm and spent the night in room 232. While in South Portland, they were seen making two ATM withdrawals, and stopping at Wal-Mart. FBI also reported that "two middle-eastern men" were seen in the parking lot of a Pizza Hut, where Atta is known to have eaten that day.[79][80][81]

    Atta and Omari arrived early the next morning, at 5:40 am, at the Portland International Jetport, where they left their rental car in the parking lot and boarded a 6:00 am Colgan Air (US Airways Express) BE-1900C flight to Boston's Logan International Airport.[82] In Portland, Mohamed Atta was selected by the Computer Assisted Passenger Prescreening System (CAPPS), which required his checked bags to undergo extra screening for explosives but involved no extra screening at the passenger security checkpoint.[83]

    The connection between the two flights at Logan International Airport was within Terminal B, but the two gates were not connected within security. Passengers must leave the secured area, go outdoors, cross a covered roadway, and enter another building before going through security once again. There are two separate concourses in Terminal B; the south concourse is mainly used by US Airways and the north one is mostly used by American Airlines. It had been overlooked that there would still be a security screen to pass in Boston because of this distinct detail of the terminal's arrangement. At 6:45 am, while at the Boston airport, Atta took a call from Flight 175 hijacker Marwan al-Shehhi. This call was apparently to confirm that the attacks were ready to begin. Atta checked in for American Airlines Flight 11, passed through security again, and boarded the flight. Atta was seated in business class, in seat 8D. At 7:59 am, the plane departed from Boston, carrying 81 passengers.[82]

    The hijacking began at 8:14 am-15 minutes after the flight departed-when beverage service would be starting. At this time, the pilots stopped responding to air traffic control, and the aircraft began deviating from the planned route.[6]

    Because the flight from Portland to Boston had been delayed,[85] his bags did not make it onto Flight 11. Atta's bags were later recovered in Logan International Airport, and they contained airline uniforms, flight manuals, and other items. The luggage included a copy of Atta's will, written in Arabic, as well as a list of instructions, also in Arabic, such as "make an oath to die and renew your intentions", "you should feel complete tranquility, because the time between you and your marriage in heaven is very short", and "check your weapon before you leave and long before you leave. You must make your knife sharp and you must not discomfort your animal during the slaughter".[86]

    A bit more than a ticket, right? You can follow the sources as you see fit. From what I've seen, the evidence is pretty good. I always keep an open mind to new evidence, though. Keep in mind that saying "But that could have been faked!" is not evidence. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  371. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 3:02 pm GMT @Jonathan Revusky
    As I've already shown, you asked me "what records?"
    WTF is your point? What was said is perfectly clear. I asked you what the strongest available evidence was for the official story and you said there were records blah blah and I asked what records are you talking about. OBVIOUSLY that meant what records are you talking about that constitute proof of the official story ?

    And then, among a few other equally worthless things, you said "His purchase of the tickets."

    The ticket is among the records that support the official story.
    Well, you see, there you go again...

    Look, you are great, you are a champion shit eater and you are the reigning shit eater of the week. BUT... let me make something clear to you, champ....

    This idea that Atta having a plane ticket constitutes proof of anything really is a breathtaking piece of bullshit. My hat is off to you. You are great. But still, you have to come up with some new bullshit to win this week's shit eater of the week award. You cannot use the same bullshit to win that won you last week's prize to win this week. You have to come up with some new bullshit.

    I know you're up to it. You have the makings of a great champion.

    Well, obviously the ticket disproves your CGI planes theory. I've never seen a ticket for a CGI plane. Have you?

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    Well, obviously the ticket disproves your CGI planes theory.
    Well, it's not my theory specifically. However, as a matter of fact, I consider it pretty likely that what we were shown on the TV on 9/11 was largely video fakery, including the collision of the planes with the buildings.

    Now, regarding Mohammed Atta's plane ticket (which I actually have never seen anyway) disproving the video fakery theory, the answer is... NO! Atta having a plane ticket does not prove or disprove anything in this regard.

    I've done a lot of air travel, you know. The fact that you have a ticket to fly on a plane at a certain time does not absolutely mean that you are on the plane and it takes off at that time. Sometimes you go to the airport for a 8:00 flight and they tell you it's delayed an hour and then they tell you it's delayed another hour. Sometimes they even cancel the flight and a representative of the airline says they'll take care of you, putting you on a different flight to your destination. (They'll usually give you a meal voucher to eat some shitty food in the airport to compensate you... been there, done that.... )

    Last year, I flew to Lithuania. I had a cheapo ticket from Barcelona to Vilnius. The flight was very delayed, and then an hour before landing, they said we weren't landing in Vilnius, but in Kaunas, and they put us all on a bus to go to Vilnius afterwards. True story. That kind of stuff happens all the time.

    The idea that, because Mohammed Atta had a ticket (so they say) this proves that the video fo the plane hitting the tower is not fake -- this is another shit eater brain fart on your part for sure. Each plane has like millions of parts, and each part has a unique serial number apparently. So there ought to be quite hard proof about which specific aircraft collided with each building, no? Yet I don't think there is any such hard proof. Like, with the Pentagon, they never show you any recognizable plane parts. And the Shanksville crash site is ridiculous. There's really just nothing there!

    So, anyway, just for the sake of argument, even if we did conclude finally that (a) a plane definitely hit the building, and (b) Mohammed Atta not only had a ticket but was also definitely on a plane, there still wouldn't be hard proof that the plane that hit the building is the one Mohammed Atta was on. If a plane did a hit a building, it could have been a completely different plane. And it still wouldn't be proof that Mohammed Atta hijacked any plane.

    Now, I'm sorry to inform you that this latest idiocy from you cannot really qualify to win this week's shit eater of the week award. You see, it's just a variant on last week's idiocy. You say: "He purchased a ticket" when asked for evidence for the official story. Now, when you want to prove that the video of the plane hitting the tower is authentic, you say: "Atta purchased a ticket."

    Okay, it is idiotic as well, but I think it's too derivative from the previous idiotic shit eater statement. I think you have to come up with some entirely new idiotic shit eater statement if you want to win this week's shit eater of the week prize.

    That's my tentative judgment anyway. Others are free to weigh in on that... Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  372. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 3:25 pm GMT • 100 Words @Rurik Hey L.K.,
    holocau$t is a monstrous Hoax?
    I think you're right about some of the trolls here, or so it seems to me

    but this is the thing vis-a-vis the Holocau$t. I don't like calling the whole thing a hoax, because then it sort of looks like you're suggesting that NONE of any of that stuff happened, when I believe that it's clear that Jews (and many others) were systematically persecuted by the Nazis for being Jews, and not necessarily for any crimes they committed. Just like the Japanese in the US during the war. If they Japanese claimed there were gas chambers at the camps where they were held, then I think it would be fair and prudent to examine those claims for veracity, just as in the case of the Holocaust- where I don't think they had homicidal gas chambers for human extermination purposes. But that doesn't change the fact that many people perished in those camps, and many of them were innocent Jews, and if the Jews want to call that particular suffering a name to commemorate it, just like what the Japanese went through, then I don't see what's wrong with that per se.

    That it has become this momentous blood libel against the German people in particular and all Gentiles in general is just another testament to the power of the lobby.

    Controlling the world's banks and money supply and therefor all the media of consequence and all the major politicians (and publishing houses and courts and universities, etc..) has had an effect on things. The Eternal WarsⓊ being perhaps the most troublesome for the moment.

    I wouldn't be inclined to question an assertion that there are many Jews in senior positions in investment banks but in the commercial banking sphere which I understand to have much more to do with the money supply than the entrepreneurial investment or merchant bankers do I am unaware of any great Jewish presence. Should I be? Who and where are they? I note that Goldman Sachs was only an investment bank until 2009.

    • Replies: @Rurik Ok, I'll play..
    but in the commercial banking sphere which I understand to have much more to do with the money supply than the entrepreneurial investment or merchant bankers do I am unaware of any great Jewish presence. Should I be? Who and where are they?
    well wiz, you see the money supply is determined by the Fed, and that is owned and controlled by Jews (for Jews ; )

    there used to be a distinction between investment banks and the ones whose deposits were guaranteed by the FDIC. It was called Glass Steagall and they made that law after the Fed created the Great Depression. But then what happened is a couple of tenacious Jews (Rubin, Summers, et al) got Bubba to cancel out Glass and handed over the keys to our Treasury to the world's greediest swindlers.

    here they are

    http://propertypak.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/53-1.jpeg

    I don't see Rubin in the pic but he was the main architect Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  373. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 3:51 pm GMT • 100 Words @Rurik
    .*what are your qualifations to be taken seriously on the implications of the laws of physics and structural engineering*?
    I rest on my laurels wiz

    we've both participated on this site for some time now. In my case clearly and obviously in an attempt to get at the truth in all things. In your case, -to obfuscate the truth- about any issue you find inconvenient to the status quo- vis-a-vis the PTB. I believe this is obvious to everyone here who's been paying attention at all.

    What you do wiz, is scan these pages for any signs of some ingenuousness, and then you proceed to reel them into your web, with innocent sounding queries, and then when they're engaged in an exchange with you, you drop a manure wagon of legerdemain on their heads, obviously finding amusement in your own 'cleverness and artfulness'. I suppose you imagine you're being cagey, but to the rest of us you just come across as a mean-spirited, sadistic little prick.

    Now why, I ask you, would I ever feel the inclination so qualify myself to the likes of you, eh?

    Unfofortunately your resting on your laurels means we've never seen them.

    I could say that I was merely trying to draw out of you some positive reason for your readers to be persuaded by the authority of your assertions. But someone might have a case for calling me disingenuousness. After all I am 99 per cent sure that you have absolutely no qualifications either in knowledge or reasoning power to give any authority to your confident assertions about physics or structural engineering. So I now put THAT forward as my contribution to your readers' ability to assess your comments in the absence of your willingness to display your professional laurels.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    After all I am 99 per cent sure that you have absolutely no qualifications either in knowledge or reasoning power to give any authority ...
    you don't need a degree in engineering to see that building seven was brought down by controlled demolition. Duh

    and I have no such degree, but I am a successful businessman who builds things out of metal (and concrete among other materials), and I understand their properties intimately. - If I didn't, then the things I built wouldn't last and function properly and I wouldn't have managed to be successful enough that I would waste time bantering around inanities with someone like you on the Internet. ;) Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  374. Rurik says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 4:58 pm GMT • 200 Words @Wizard of Oz I wouldn't be inclined to question an assertion that there are many Jews in senior positions in investment banks but in the commercial banking sphere which I understand to have much more to do with the money supply than the entrepreneurial investment or merchant bankers do I am unaware of any great Jewish presence. Should I be? Who and where are they? I note that Goldman Sachs was only an investment bank until 2009.

    Ok, I'll play..

    but in the commercial banking sphere which I understand to have much more to do with the money supply than the entrepreneurial investment or merchant bankers do I am unaware of any great Jewish presence. Should I be? Who and where are they?

    well wiz, you see the money supply is determined by the Fed, and that is owned and controlled by Jews (for Jews ; )

    there used to be a distinction between investment banks and the ones whose deposits were guaranteed by the FDIC. It was called Glass Steagall and they made that law after the Fed created the Great Depression. But then what happened is a couple of tenacious Jews (Rubin, Summers, et al) got Bubba to cancel out Glass and handed over the keys to our Treasury to the world's greediest swindlers.

    here they are

    http://propertypak.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/53-1.jpeg

    I don't see Rubin in the pic but he was the main architect

    • Replies: @Boris
    you see the money supply is determined by the Fed, and that is owned and controlled by Jews (for Jews ; )
    The federal reserve is owned by Jews? The more you know... Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  375. Rurik says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 5:05 pm GMT • 100 Words @Wizard of Oz Unfofortunately your resting on your laurels means we've never seen them.

    I could say that I was merely trying to draw out of you some positive reason for your readers to be persuaded by the authority of your assertions. But someone might have a case for calling me disingenuousness. After all I am 99 per cent sure that you have absolutely no qualifications either in knowledge or reasoning power to give any authority to your confident assertions about physics or structural engineering. So I now put THAT forward as my contribution to your readers' ability to assess your comments in the absence of your willingness to display your professional laurels.

    After all I am 99 per cent sure that you have absolutely no qualifications either in knowledge or reasoning power to give any authority

    you don't need a degree in engineering to see that building seven was brought down by controlled demolition. Duh

    and I have no such degree, but I am a successful businessman who builds things out of metal (and concrete among other materials), and I understand their properties intimately. – If I didn't, then the things I built wouldn't last and function properly and I wouldn't have managed to be successful enough that I would waste time bantering around inanities with someone like you on the Internet. ;)

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz I almost pay you a compliment at #201 on The Saker's 9/11 thread :-) Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  376. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 5:13 pm GMT • 2,200 Words @KA "The creation of a peril usually starts with mysterious "sources" and unnamed officials who leak information, float trial balloons, and warn about the coming threat. Those sources reflect debates and discussions taking place within government. Their information is then augmented by colorful intelligence reports that finger exotic and conspiratorial terrorists and military advisers. Journalists then search for the named and other villains. The media end up finding corroboration from foreign sources who form an informal coalition with the sources in the U.S. government and help the press uncover further information substantiating the threat coming from the new bad guys.


    A series of leaks, signals, and trial balloons is already beginning to shape U.S. agenda and policy. Congress is about to conduct several hearings on the global threat of Islamic fundamentalism.(14) The Bush administration has been trying to devise policies and establish new alliances to counter Iranian influence: building up Islamic but secular and pro-Western Turkey as a countervailing force in Central Asia, expanding U.S. commitments to Saudi Arabia, warning Sudan that it faces grave consequences as a result of its policies, and even shoring up a socialist military dictatorship in Algeria.


    http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-177

    Printing a ticket and getting a Pasport ,if all that you have,then you are in the right league . Join those in NYT,WaPo,Hoover Institue and speak to George Will, Jim Hoagland , because following the collapse of Soviet,they have been looking for an enemy that they were finding raising its heads in Algeria, Iran, Sudan,and even in Malayasia back in 1992.


    Conspiracy theory- is absolutely commonplace but rendered a bogus term . It is common and practiced by the government all the time . It is used by people who have agenda and find resistance to agenda . The moment they use false narrative,weird scenario, create unknown fear and offer solution abusing the authorities,abusing the institutional but previous records and inserting propangada preaching journalist ( CIA had more than 400 in 1975 per Bernstein) , they are engaging in conspiracy . It follows a script. So it has a theory to follow . It is a conspiracy theory.

    Printing a ticket and getting a Pasport ,if all that you have,then you are in the right league

    You are falling for Jonny's schtick:

    Here are some lengthy bits from Atta's Wiki page:

    [MORE]

    On April 11, 1996, Atta signed his last will and testament at the mosque, officially declaring his Muslim beliefs and giving 18 instructions regarding his burial.[9][40] This was the day that Israel attacked Lebanon in Operation Grapes of Wrath, which outraged Atta. Signing the will, "offering his life" was Atta's response.[41] The instructions in his last will and testament reflect both Sunni funeral practices, along with some more puritanical demands from Salafism, including asking people not "to weep and cry" or show emotion. The will was signed by el-Motassadeq and a second individual at the mosque.[42]

    After leaving Plankontor in the summer of 1997, Atta disappeared again and did not return until 1998. Atta phoned his graduate advisor in 1998, after a year of doing nothing for his thesis, telling Machule that he had family problems at home and said, "Please understand, I don't want to talk about this."[43][44] At the winter break in 1997, Atta left and did not return to Hamburg for three months. He said that he went on pilgrimage to Mecca again, just 18 months after his first time. Terry McDermott explained in Perfect Soldiers that it is highly unusual and unlikely for someone, especially a young student, to go on Hajj again that soon. Also, three months is an exceptionally long time, much longer than what Hajj requires. When Atta returned, he claimed that his passport was lost and got a new one, which is a common tactic to erase evidence of travel to places such as Afghanistan.[45] When he returned in spring 1998, after disappearing for several months, he had grown a thick long beard, and "seemed more serious and aloof" to those who knew him.[28]

    In mid-1998, Atta worked alongside Shehhi, bin al-Shibh, and Belfas, at a warehouse, packing computers in crates for shipping.[46] The Hamburg group did not stay in Wilhelmsburg for long. The next winter, they moved into an apartment at Marienstrasse 54 in the borough of Harburg, near the Technical University of Hamburg,[47] at which they enrolled. It was here that the Hamburg cell developed and acted more as a group.[48] They met three or four times a week to discuss their anti-American feelings and to plot possible attacks. Many al-Qaeda members lived in this apartment at various times, including hijacker Marwan al-Shehhi, Zakariya Essabar, and others.

    In late 1999, Atta, Shehhi, Jarrah, Bahaji, and bin al-Shibh decided to travel to Chechnya to fight against the Russians, but were convinced by Khalid al-Masri and Mohamedou Ould Slahi at the last minute to change their plans. They instead traveled to Afghanistan over a two-week period in late November. On November 29, 1999, Mohamed Atta boarded Turkish Airlines Flight TK1662 from Hamburg to Istanbul, where he changed to flight TK1056 to Karachi, Pakistan.[3] After they arrived, they were selected by Al Qaeda leader Abu Hafs as suitable candidates for the "planes operation" plot. They were all well-educated, had experience of living in western society, along with some English skills, and would be able to obtain visas.[41] Even before bin al-Shibh had arrived, Atta, Shehhi, and Jarrah were sent to the House of Ghamdi near bin Laden's home in Kandahar, where he was waiting to meet them. Bin Laden asked them to pledge loyalty and commit to suicide missions, which Atta and the other three Hamburg men all accepted. Bin Laden sent them to see Mohammed Atef to get a general overview of the mission, and then they were sent to Karachi to see Khalid Sheikh Mohammed to go over specifics.[49]

    German investigators said that they had evidence that Mohamed Atta trained at al-Qaeda camps in Afghanistan from late 1999 to early 2000. The timing of the Afghanistan training was outlined on August 23, 2002 by a senior investigator. The investigator, Klaus Ulrich Kersten, director of Germany's federal anticrime agency, the Bundeskriminalamt, provided the first official confirmation that Atta and two other pilots had been in Afghanistan and the first dates of the training. Kersten said in an interview at the agency's headquarters in Wiesbaden, Germany, that Atta was in Afghanistan from late 1999 until early 2000,[50][51] and that there was evidence that Atta met with Osama bin Laden there.[52]

    A video surfaced in October 2006 which showed bin Laden at Tarnak Farms on January 8, 2000, and also showed Atta together with Ziad Jarrah reading their wills ten days later on January 18, 2000.[3][53]

    According to official reports, Atta arrived on June 3, 2000, at Newark International Airport from Prague. That month, Atta and Shehhi stayed in hotels and rented rooms in New York City on a short-term basis. They continued to inquire about flight schools and personally visited some, including Airman Flight School in Norman, Oklahoma, which they visited on July 3, 2000. Days later, Shehhi and Atta ended up in Venice, Florida (On the Gulf Coast of South Florida).[15] Atta and Shehhi established accounts at SunTrust Bank and received wire transfers from Ali Abdul Aziz Ali, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's nephew in the United Arab Emirates.[15][57] On July 6, 2000, Atta and Shehhi enrolled at Huffman Aviation in Venice, Florida, where they entered the Accelerated Pilot Program, while Ziad Jarrah took flight training from a different school also based in Venice.[15] When Atta and Shehhi arrived in Florida, they initially stayed with Huffman's bookkeeper and his wife in a spare room of their house. After a week, they were asked to leave because they were rude. Atta and Shehhi then moved into a small house nearby in Nokomis where they stayed for six months.[63][64]
    Atta's flight record from Huffman

    Atta began flight training on July 7, 2000, and continued training nearly every day. By the end of July, both Atta and Shehhi did solo flights. Atta earned his private pilot certificate in September, and then he and Shehhi decided to switch flight schools. Both enrolled at Jones Aviation in Sarasota and took training there for a brief time. They had problems following instructions and were both very upset when they failed their Stage 1 exam at Jones Aviation. They inquired about multi-engine planes and told the instructor that "they wanted to move quickly, because they had a job waiting in their country upon completion of their training in the U.S." In mid-October, Atta and Shehhi returned to Huffman Aviation to continue training. In November 2000, Atta earned his instrument rating, and then a commercial pilot's license in December from the Federal Aviation Administration.[15]

    Atta continued with flight training, including solo flights and simulator time. On December 22, Atta and Shehhi applied to Eagle International for large jet and simulator training for McDonnell Douglas DC-9 and Boeing 737–300 models. On December 26, Atta and Shehhi needed a tow for their rented Piper Cherokee on a taxiway of Miami International Airport after the engine shut down. On December 29 and 30, Atta and Marwan went to the Opa-locka Airport where they practiced on a Boeing 727 simulator, and they obtained Boeing 767 simulator training from Pan Am International on December 31. Atta purchased flight deck videos for Boeing 747–200, Boeing 757–200, Airbus A320 and Boeing 767-300ER models via mail-order from Sporty's Pilot Shop in Batavia, Ohio in November and December 2000.[15]

    On July 22, 2001, Mohamed Atta rented a Mitsubishi Galant from Alamo Rent A Car, putting 3,836 miles on the vehicle before returning it on July 26. On July 25, Atta dropped Ziad Jarrah off at Miami International Airport for a flight back to Germany. On July 26, Atta traveled via Continental Airlines to Newark, New Jersey, checked into the Kings Inn Hotel in Wayne, New Jersey and stayed there until July 30 when he took a flight from Newark back to Fort Lauderdale.[15]

    On August 4, Atta is believed to have been at Orlando International Airport waiting to pick up suspected "20th Hijacker" Mohammed al-Qahtani from Dubai, who ended up being held by immigration as "suspicious." Atta was believed to have used a payphone at the airport to phone a number "linked to al-Qaeda" after Qahtani was denied entry.[75]

    On August 6, Atta and Shehhi rented a 1995 white, four door Ford Escort from Warrick's Rent-A-Car, which was returned on August 13. On August 6, Atta booked a flight on Spirit Airlines from Fort Lauderdale to Newark, leaving on August 7 and returning on August 9. The reservation was not used and canceled on August 9 with the reason "Family Medical Emergency". Instead, he went to Central Office & Travel in Pompano Beach to purchase a ticket for a flight to Newark, leaving on the evening of August 7 and schedule to return in the evening on August 9. Atta did not take the return flight. On August 7, Atta checked into the Wayne Inn in Wayne, New Jersey and checked out on August 9. The same day, he booked a one-way first class ticket via the Internet on America West Flight 244 from Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport to Las Vegas.[15] Atta traveled twice to Las Vegas on "surveillance flights" rehearsing how the 9/11 attacks would be carried out. Other hijackers traveled to Las Vegas at different times in the summer of 2001.

    Throughout the summer, Atta met with Nawaf al-Hazmi to discuss the status of the operation on a monthly basis.[76]

    On August 23, Atta's driver license was revoked in absentia after he failed to show up in traffic court to answer the earlier citation for driving without a license.[77] On the same day, Israeli Mossad reportedly gave his name to the CIA as part of a list of 19 names they said were planning an attack in the near future. Only four of the names are known for certain, the others being Marwan al-Shehhi, Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi.[78]

    On September 10, 2001, Atta picked up Omari from the Milner Hotel in Boston, Massachusetts, and the two drove their rented Nissan Altima to a Comfort Inn in South Portland, Maine; on the way they were seen getting gasoline at an Exxon Gas Station. They arrived at 5:43 pm and spent the night in room 232. While in South Portland, they were seen making two ATM withdrawals, and stopping at Wal-Mart. FBI also reported that "two middle-eastern men" were seen in the parking lot of a Pizza Hut, where Atta is known to have eaten that day.[79][80][81]

    Atta and Omari arrived early the next morning, at 5:40 am, at the Portland International Jetport, where they left their rental car in the parking lot and boarded a 6:00 am Colgan Air (US Airways Express) BE-1900C flight to Boston's Logan International Airport.[82] In Portland, Mohamed Atta was selected by the Computer Assisted Passenger Prescreening System (CAPPS), which required his checked bags to undergo extra screening for explosives but involved no extra screening at the passenger security checkpoint.[83]

    The connection between the two flights at Logan International Airport was within Terminal B, but the two gates were not connected within security. Passengers must leave the secured area, go outdoors, cross a covered roadway, and enter another building before going through security once again. There are two separate concourses in Terminal B; the south concourse is mainly used by US Airways and the north one is mostly used by American Airlines. It had been overlooked that there would still be a security screen to pass in Boston because of this distinct detail of the terminal's arrangement. At 6:45 am, while at the Boston airport, Atta took a call from Flight 175 hijacker Marwan al-Shehhi. This call was apparently to confirm that the attacks were ready to begin. Atta checked in for American Airlines Flight 11, passed through security again, and boarded the flight. Atta was seated in business class, in seat 8D. At 7:59 am, the plane departed from Boston, carrying 81 passengers.[82]

    The hijacking began at 8:14 am-15 minutes after the flight departed-when beverage service would be starting. At this time, the pilots stopped responding to air traffic control, and the aircraft began deviating from the planned route.[6]

    Because the flight from Portland to Boston had been delayed,[85] his bags did not make it onto Flight 11. Atta's bags were later recovered in Logan International Airport, and they contained airline uniforms, flight manuals, and other items. The luggage included a copy of Atta's will, written in Arabic, as well as a list of instructions, also in Arabic, such as "make an oath to die and renew your intentions", "you should feel complete tranquility, because the time between you and your marriage in heaven is very short", and "check your weapon before you leave and long before you leave. You must make your knife sharp and you must not discomfort your animal during the slaughter".[86]

    A bit more than a ticket, right? You can follow the sources as you see fit. From what I've seen, the evidence is pretty good. I always keep an open mind to new evidence, though. Keep in mind that saying "But that could have been faked!" is not evidence. • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    Here are some lengthy bits from Atta's Wiki page:
    I'm sorry. I don't think this is good enough to win this week's shit eater of the week. It's very uninspired, this long copy-paste from the wikipedia page.

    I mean, the wikipedia page is just a summary of the official story. So you're basically just offering a copy-paste of the official story as proof of the official story. This is of course absolutely typical shit eater behavior, but to win shit eater of the week, it has to be standout stuff.

    Like, when I asked you what the proof of the official story and you said that Atta had purchased a ticket, that was champion class shit eater material. This long copy-paste.... Mehh..... Nah....

    You'll really have to do better.

    From what I've seen, the evidence is pretty good.
    What evidence are you referring to specifically? I have no idea what you're referring to... Let's just grab something more or less randomly from all the verbiage you copy-pasted:
    On August 6, Atta and Shehhi rented a 1995 white, four door Ford Escort from Warrick's Rent-A-Car, which was returned on August 13.
    I mean, look at the detail. It is very detailed evidence. He rented a 1995 Ford Escort. It wasn't a 1994 Ford Escort. And it wasn't a 1996 Ford Escort.

    Rented not from Hertz or Avis, but from "Warrick's Rent-a-car". WTF? Sounds like the people behind this mighta been on a tight budget... rented the cheapest shitbox car, a Ford Escort, from the most cheap-ass rental company there was...

    But, okay, this is all nitpicking. The guy was a bona fide terrorist.

    " He rented a 1995 Ford Escort, Godammit!!! WHAT MORE PROOF DO YOU CRAZY CONSPIRACY THEORISTS NEED!!!!???? " Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  377. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 5:31 pm GMT • 600 Words @Boris Well, obviously the ticket disproves your CGI planes theory. I've never seen a ticket for a CGI plane. Have you?

    Well, obviously the ticket disproves your CGI planes theory.

    Well, it's not my theory specifically. However, as a matter of fact, I consider it pretty likely that what we were shown on the TV on 9/11 was largely video fakery, including the collision of the planes with the buildings.

    Now, regarding Mohammed Atta's plane ticket (which I actually have never seen anyway) disproving the video fakery theory, the answer is NO! Atta having a plane ticket does not prove or disprove anything in this regard.

    I've done a lot of air travel, you know. The fact that you have a ticket to fly on a plane at a certain time does not absolutely mean that you are on the plane and it takes off at that time. Sometimes you go to the airport for a 8:00 flight and they tell you it's delayed an hour and then they tell you it's delayed another hour. Sometimes they even cancel the flight and a representative of the airline says they'll take care of you, putting you on a different flight to your destination. (They'll usually give you a meal voucher to eat some shitty food in the airport to compensate you been there, done that . )

    Last year, I flew to Lithuania. I had a cheapo ticket from Barcelona to Vilnius. The flight was very delayed, and then an hour before landing, they said we weren't landing in Vilnius, but in Kaunas, and they put us all on a bus to go to Vilnius afterwards. True story. That kind of stuff happens all the time.

    The idea that, because Mohammed Atta had a ticket (so they say) this proves that the video fo the plane hitting the tower is not fake - this is another shit eater brain fart on your part for sure. Each plane has like millions of parts, and each part has a unique serial number apparently. So there ought to be quite hard proof about which specific aircraft collided with each building, no? Yet I don't think there is any such hard proof. Like, with the Pentagon, they never show you any recognizable plane parts. And the Shanksville crash site is ridiculous. There's really just nothing there!

    So, anyway, just for the sake of argument, even if we did conclude finally that (a) a plane definitely hit the building, and (b) Mohammed Atta not only had a ticket but was also definitely on a plane, there still wouldn't be hard proof that the plane that hit the building is the one Mohammed Atta was on. If a plane did a hit a building, it could have been a completely different plane. And it still wouldn't be proof that Mohammed Atta hijacked any plane.

    Now, I'm sorry to inform you that this latest idiocy from you cannot really qualify to win this week's shit eater of the week award. You see, it's just a variant on last week's idiocy. You say: "He purchased a ticket" when asked for evidence for the official story. Now, when you want to prove that the video of the plane hitting the tower is authentic, you say: "Atta purchased a ticket."

    Okay, it is idiotic as well, but I think it's too derivative from the previous idiotic shit eater statement. I think you have to come up with some entirely new idiotic shit eater statement if you want to win this week's shit eater of the week prize.

    That's my tentative judgment anyway. Others are free to weigh in on that

    • Replies: @Boris
    However, as a matter of fact, I consider it pretty likely that what we were shown on the TV on 9/11 was largely video fakery
    Yeah, well that's completely stupid and contradicted by hundreds of witnesses. Is there any stupid conspiracy you DON'T believe? Let's try to keep the lengths of these posts manageable. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  378. utu says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 5:34 pm GMT @Rurik OK, I checked out the first of your links, (and admittedly from the obviously biased Wikipedia)

    this is the kind of thing I found out


    The Polish Army surrendered nearly 140,000 troops and during the siege around 18,000 civilians of Warsaw perished. As a result of the air bombardments 10% of the city's buildings were entirely destroyed and further 40% were heavily damaged.[1]:78

    now this is what I said:

    "anyone who burns women and children alive for the fun of it and out of sheer tribal hatred, rather than as a military and existential imperative, is a monster in my book"

    so what you have was strategic bombing of a city (a war crime in my book but then I never said the Nazis were boy scouts) for a clear military objective. That's not what I'm talking about.

    Imagine if Germany had already defeated the Poles, and Poland was on the brink, and had effectively lost the war, and Warsaw was turned into a refugee city with tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of refugees huddling there as their last sanctuary. There would have been no military age men there, as they would have all died in the war by now, and the city was overflowing with women and children (and POW camps and such). OK? And then imagine the kind of people that would plan, not just an attack in order to break the moral of the enemy, (it had already long been broken), but rather as a calculated act of sheer inhuman cruelty, intended to burn alive every single old man, woman and child until there was nothing left of either the people or the (beautiful, ancient Baroque architecture and art of the) city. It was a true holocaust, intended as an act of sadistic vengeance upon harmless people to sate an insatiable need to inflict unimaginable suffering and cruelty for cruelties' sake. Just like Waco. And for the same reason, - they defied the power of their 'masters', and for that, they would be made to pay.

    Did the Nazis ever do anything like that? Did they ever deliberately burn hundreds of thousands of civilians alive for no military purpose whatsoever? But just to be as cruel as possible?

    I guess that's the word I'm really thinking of there. Cruelty. Because as that quote you posted showed, the Nazis at their worst were trying to murder people as humanely as possible, whereas the allies wanted to inflict the most suffering on the most innocent and vulnerable women and children as possible. They wanted to burn women and children alive who were no threat and at the virtual end of the war. What kind of people do something like that?

    Reading the Old Testament, I get an idea of where they get their demonic hate from.

    One on my mantras Incitatus, is that a lot of the raw hate in the world today (and certainly yesterday) comes from religious ignorance and a cartoon version of the world that says the followers of this religion are pure good, and the followers of that religion are pure evil. I sort of wonder what things would be like if we'd finally lay to rest these pernicious and stone age codified ignorance down, and joined the 21st century as rational actors...

    Very good comment.

    Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  379. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 5:47 pm GMT • 300 Words @Boris
    Printing a ticket and getting a Pasport ,if all that you have,then you are in the right league
    You are falling for Jonny's schtick:

    Here are some lengthy bits from Atta's Wiki page:


    On April 11, 1996, Atta signed his last will and testament at the mosque, officially declaring his Muslim beliefs and giving 18 instructions regarding his burial.[9][40] This was the day that Israel attacked Lebanon in Operation Grapes of Wrath, which outraged Atta. Signing the will, "offering his life" was Atta's response.[41] The instructions in his last will and testament reflect both Sunni funeral practices, along with some more puritanical demands from Salafism, including asking people not "to weep and cry" or show emotion. The will was signed by el-Motassadeq and a second individual at the mosque.[42]

    After leaving Plankontor in the summer of 1997, Atta disappeared again and did not return until 1998. Atta phoned his graduate advisor in 1998, after a year of doing nothing for his thesis, telling Machule that he had family problems at home and said, "Please understand, I don't want to talk about this."[43][44] At the winter break in 1997, Atta left and did not return to Hamburg for three months. He said that he went on pilgrimage to Mecca again, just 18 months after his first time. Terry McDermott explained in Perfect Soldiers that it is highly unusual and unlikely for someone, especially a young student, to go on Hajj again that soon. Also, three months is an exceptionally long time, much longer than what Hajj requires. When Atta returned, he claimed that his passport was lost and got a new one, which is a common tactic to erase evidence of travel to places such as Afghanistan.[45] When he returned in spring 1998, after disappearing for several months, he had grown a thick long beard, and "seemed more serious and aloof" to those who knew him.[28]

    In mid-1998, Atta worked alongside Shehhi, bin al-Shibh, and Belfas, at a warehouse, packing computers in crates for shipping.[46] The Hamburg group did not stay in Wilhelmsburg for long. The next winter, they moved into an apartment at Marienstrasse 54 in the borough of Harburg, near the Technical University of Hamburg,[47] at which they enrolled. It was here that the Hamburg cell developed and acted more as a group.[48] They met three or four times a week to discuss their anti-American feelings and to plot possible attacks. Many al-Qaeda members lived in this apartment at various times, including hijacker Marwan al-Shehhi, Zakariya Essabar, and others.

    In late 1999, Atta, Shehhi, Jarrah, Bahaji, and bin al-Shibh decided to travel to Chechnya to fight against the Russians, but were convinced by Khalid al-Masri and Mohamedou Ould Slahi at the last minute to change their plans. They instead traveled to Afghanistan over a two-week period in late November. On November 29, 1999, Mohamed Atta boarded Turkish Airlines Flight TK1662 from Hamburg to Istanbul, where he changed to flight TK1056 to Karachi, Pakistan.[3] After they arrived, they were selected by Al Qaeda leader Abu Hafs as suitable candidates for the "planes operation" plot. They were all well-educated, had experience of living in western society, along with some English skills, and would be able to obtain visas.[41] Even before bin al-Shibh had arrived, Atta, Shehhi, and Jarrah were sent to the House of Ghamdi near bin Laden's home in Kandahar, where he was waiting to meet them. Bin Laden asked them to pledge loyalty and commit to suicide missions, which Atta and the other three Hamburg men all accepted. Bin Laden sent them to see Mohammed Atef to get a general overview of the mission, and then they were sent to Karachi to see Khalid Sheikh Mohammed to go over specifics.[49]

    German investigators said that they had evidence that Mohamed Atta trained at al-Qaeda camps in Afghanistan from late 1999 to early 2000. The timing of the Afghanistan training was outlined on August 23, 2002 by a senior investigator. The investigator, Klaus Ulrich Kersten, director of Germany's federal anticrime agency, the Bundeskriminalamt, provided the first official confirmation that Atta and two other pilots had been in Afghanistan and the first dates of the training. Kersten said in an interview at the agency's headquarters in Wiesbaden, Germany, that Atta was in Afghanistan from late 1999 until early 2000,[50][51] and that there was evidence that Atta met with Osama bin Laden there.[52]

    A video surfaced in October 2006 which showed bin Laden at Tarnak Farms on January 8, 2000, and also showed Atta together with Ziad Jarrah reading their wills ten days later on January 18, 2000.[3][53]

    According to official reports, Atta arrived on June 3, 2000, at Newark International Airport from Prague. That month, Atta and Shehhi stayed in hotels and rented rooms in New York City on a short-term basis. They continued to inquire about flight schools and personally visited some, including Airman Flight School in Norman, Oklahoma, which they visited on July 3, 2000. Days later, Shehhi and Atta ended up in Venice, Florida (On the Gulf Coast of South Florida).[15] Atta and Shehhi established accounts at SunTrust Bank and received wire transfers from Ali Abdul Aziz Ali, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's nephew in the United Arab Emirates.[15][57] On July 6, 2000, Atta and Shehhi enrolled at Huffman Aviation in Venice, Florida, where they entered the Accelerated Pilot Program, while Ziad Jarrah took flight training from a different school also based in Venice.[15] When Atta and Shehhi arrived in Florida, they initially stayed with Huffman's bookkeeper and his wife in a spare room of their house. After a week, they were asked to leave because they were rude. Atta and Shehhi then moved into a small house nearby in Nokomis where they stayed for six months.[63][64]
    Atta's flight record from Huffman

    Atta began flight training on July 7, 2000, and continued training nearly every day. By the end of July, both Atta and Shehhi did solo flights. Atta earned his private pilot certificate in September, and then he and Shehhi decided to switch flight schools. Both enrolled at Jones Aviation in Sarasota and took training there for a brief time. They had problems following instructions and were both very upset when they failed their Stage 1 exam at Jones Aviation. They inquired about multi-engine planes and told the instructor that "they wanted to move quickly, because they had a job waiting in their country upon completion of their training in the U.S." In mid-October, Atta and Shehhi returned to Huffman Aviation to continue training. In November 2000, Atta earned his instrument rating, and then a commercial pilot's license in December from the Federal Aviation Administration.[15]

    Atta continued with flight training, including solo flights and simulator time. On December 22, Atta and Shehhi applied to Eagle International for large jet and simulator training for McDonnell Douglas DC-9 and Boeing 737–300 models. On December 26, Atta and Shehhi needed a tow for their rented Piper Cherokee on a taxiway of Miami International Airport after the engine shut down. On December 29 and 30, Atta and Marwan went to the Opa-locka Airport where they practiced on a Boeing 727 simulator, and they obtained Boeing 767 simulator training from Pan Am International on December 31. Atta purchased flight deck videos for Boeing 747–200, Boeing 757–200, Airbus A320 and Boeing 767-300ER models via mail-order from Sporty's Pilot Shop in Batavia, Ohio in November and December 2000.[15]

    On July 22, 2001, Mohamed Atta rented a Mitsubishi Galant from Alamo Rent A Car, putting 3,836 miles on the vehicle before returning it on July 26. On July 25, Atta dropped Ziad Jarrah off at Miami International Airport for a flight back to Germany. On July 26, Atta traveled via Continental Airlines to Newark, New Jersey, checked into the Kings Inn Hotel in Wayne, New Jersey and stayed there until July 30 when he took a flight from Newark back to Fort Lauderdale.[15]

    On August 4, Atta is believed to have been at Orlando International Airport waiting to pick up suspected "20th Hijacker" Mohammed al-Qahtani from Dubai, who ended up being held by immigration as "suspicious." Atta was believed to have used a payphone at the airport to phone a number "linked to al-Qaeda" after Qahtani was denied entry.[75]

    On August 6, Atta and Shehhi rented a 1995 white, four door Ford Escort from Warrick's Rent-A-Car, which was returned on August 13. On August 6, Atta booked a flight on Spirit Airlines from Fort Lauderdale to Newark, leaving on August 7 and returning on August 9. The reservation was not used and canceled on August 9 with the reason "Family Medical Emergency". Instead, he went to Central Office & Travel in Pompano Beach to purchase a ticket for a flight to Newark, leaving on the evening of August 7 and schedule to return in the evening on August 9. Atta did not take the return flight. On August 7, Atta checked into the Wayne Inn in Wayne, New Jersey and checked out on August 9. The same day, he booked a one-way first class ticket via the Internet on America West Flight 244 from Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport to Las Vegas.[15] Atta traveled twice to Las Vegas on "surveillance flights" rehearsing how the 9/11 attacks would be carried out. Other hijackers traveled to Las Vegas at different times in the summer of 2001.

    Throughout the summer, Atta met with Nawaf al-Hazmi to discuss the status of the operation on a monthly basis.[76]

    On August 23, Atta's driver license was revoked in absentia after he failed to show up in traffic court to answer the earlier citation for driving without a license.[77] On the same day, Israeli Mossad reportedly gave his name to the CIA as part of a list of 19 names they said were planning an attack in the near future. Only four of the names are known for certain, the others being Marwan al-Shehhi, Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi.[78]

    On September 10, 2001, Atta picked up Omari from the Milner Hotel in Boston, Massachusetts, and the two drove their rented Nissan Altima to a Comfort Inn in South Portland, Maine; on the way they were seen getting gasoline at an Exxon Gas Station. They arrived at 5:43 pm and spent the night in room 232. While in South Portland, they were seen making two ATM withdrawals, and stopping at Wal-Mart. FBI also reported that "two middle-eastern men" were seen in the parking lot of a Pizza Hut, where Atta is known to have eaten that day.[79][80][81]

    Atta and Omari arrived early the next morning, at 5:40 am, at the Portland International Jetport, where they left their rental car in the parking lot and boarded a 6:00 am Colgan Air (US Airways Express) BE-1900C flight to Boston's Logan International Airport.[82] In Portland, Mohamed Atta was selected by the Computer Assisted Passenger Prescreening System (CAPPS), which required his checked bags to undergo extra screening for explosives but involved no extra screening at the passenger security checkpoint.[83]

    The connection between the two flights at Logan International Airport was within Terminal B, but the two gates were not connected within security. Passengers must leave the secured area, go outdoors, cross a covered roadway, and enter another building before going through security once again. There are two separate concourses in Terminal B; the south concourse is mainly used by US Airways and the north one is mostly used by American Airlines. It had been overlooked that there would still be a security screen to pass in Boston because of this distinct detail of the terminal's arrangement. At 6:45 am, while at the Boston airport, Atta took a call from Flight 175 hijacker Marwan al-Shehhi. This call was apparently to confirm that the attacks were ready to begin. Atta checked in for American Airlines Flight 11, passed through security again, and boarded the flight. Atta was seated in business class, in seat 8D. At 7:59 am, the plane departed from Boston, carrying 81 passengers.[82]

    The hijacking began at 8:14 am-15 minutes after the flight departed-when beverage service would be starting. At this time, the pilots stopped responding to air traffic control, and the aircraft began deviating from the planned route.[6]

    Because the flight from Portland to Boston had been delayed,[85] his bags did not make it onto Flight 11. Atta's bags were later recovered in Logan International Airport, and they contained airline uniforms, flight manuals, and other items. The luggage included a copy of Atta's will, written in Arabic, as well as a list of instructions, also in Arabic, such as "make an oath to die and renew your intentions", "you should feel complete tranquility, because the time between you and your marriage in heaven is very short", and "check your weapon before you leave and long before you leave. You must make your knife sharp and you must not discomfort your animal during the slaughter".[86]

    A bit more than a ticket, right? You can follow the sources as you see fit. From what I've seen, the evidence is pretty good. I always keep an open mind to new evidence, though. Keep in mind that saying "But that could have been faked!" is not evidence.

    Here are some lengthy bits from Atta's Wiki page:

    I'm sorry. I don't think this is good enough to win this week's shit eater of the week. It's very uninspired, this long copy-paste from the wikipedia page.

    I mean, the wikipedia page is just a summary of the official story. So you're basically just offering a copy-paste of the official story as proof of the official story. This is of course absolutely typical shit eater behavior, but to win shit eater of the week, it has to be standout stuff.

    Like, when I asked you what the proof of the official story and you said that Atta had purchased a ticket, that was champion class shit eater material. This long copy-paste . Mehh .. Nah .

    You'll really have to do better.

    From what I've seen, the evidence is pretty good.

    What evidence are you referring to specifically? I have no idea what you're referring to Let's just grab something more or less randomly from all the verbiage you copy-pasted:

    On August 6, Atta and Shehhi rented a 1995 white, four door Ford Escort from Warrick's Rent-A-Car, which was returned on August 13.

    I mean, look at the detail. It is very detailed evidence. He rented a 1995 Ford Escort. It wasn't a 1994 Ford Escort. And it wasn't a 1996 Ford Escort.

    Rented not from Hertz or Avis, but from "Warrick's Rent-a-car". WTF? Sounds like the people behind this mighta been on a tight budget rented the cheapest shitbox car, a Ford Escort, from the most cheap-ass rental company there was

    But, okay, this is all nitpicking. The guy was a bona fide terrorist.

    " He rented a 1995 Ford Escort, Godammit!!! WHAT MORE PROOF DO YOU CRAZY CONSPIRACY THEORISTS NEED!!!!???? "

    • Replies: @Boris
    "He rented a 1995 Ford Escort, Godammit!!! WHAT MORE PROOF DO YOU CRAZY CONSPIRACY THEORISTS NEED!!!!????"
    You think the planes were CGI. Your opinion is worthless. I shall now only respond to you with dismissive YouTube clips.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN9LdTkR85Q Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  380. SolontoCroesus says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 6:03 pm GMT • 200 Words @Rurik OK, I checked out the first of your links, (and admittedly from the obviously biased Wikipedia)

    this is the kind of thing I found out


    The Polish Army surrendered nearly 140,000 troops and during the siege around 18,000 civilians of Warsaw perished. As a result of the air bombardments 10% of the city's buildings were entirely destroyed and further 40% were heavily damaged.[1]:78

    now this is what I said:

    "anyone who burns women and children alive for the fun of it and out of sheer tribal hatred, rather than as a military and existential imperative, is a monster in my book"

    so what you have was strategic bombing of a city (a war crime in my book but then I never said the Nazis were boy scouts) for a clear military objective. That's not what I'm talking about.

    Imagine if Germany had already defeated the Poles, and Poland was on the brink, and had effectively lost the war, and Warsaw was turned into a refugee city with tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of refugees huddling there as their last sanctuary. There would have been no military age men there, as they would have all died in the war by now, and the city was overflowing with women and children (and POW camps and such). OK? And then imagine the kind of people that would plan, not just an attack in order to break the moral of the enemy, (it had already long been broken), but rather as a calculated act of sheer inhuman cruelty, intended to burn alive every single old man, woman and child until there was nothing left of either the people or the (beautiful, ancient Baroque architecture and art of the) city. It was a true holocaust, intended as an act of sadistic vengeance upon harmless people to sate an insatiable need to inflict unimaginable suffering and cruelty for cruelties' sake. Just like Waco. And for the same reason, - they defied the power of their 'masters', and for that, they would be made to pay.

    Did the Nazis ever do anything like that? Did they ever deliberately burn hundreds of thousands of civilians alive for no military purpose whatsoever? But just to be as cruel as possible?

    I guess that's the word I'm really thinking of there. Cruelty. Because as that quote you posted showed, the Nazis at their worst were trying to murder people as humanely as possible, whereas the allies wanted to inflict the most suffering on the most innocent and vulnerable women and children as possible. They wanted to burn women and children alive who were no threat and at the virtual end of the war. What kind of people do something like that?

    Reading the Old Testament, I get an idea of where they get their demonic hate from.

    One on my mantras Incitatus, is that a lot of the raw hate in the world today (and certainly yesterday) comes from religious ignorance and a cartoon version of the world that says the followers of this religion are pure good, and the followers of that religion are pure evil. I sort of wonder what things would be like if we'd finally lay to rest these pernicious and stone age codified ignorance down, and joined the 21st century as rational actors...

    a lot of the raw hate in the world today (and certainly yesterday) comes from religious ignorance and a cartoon version of the world that says the followers of this religion are pure good, and the followers of that religion are pure evil. I sort of wonder what things would be like if we'd finally lay to rest these pernicious and stone age codified ignorance down, and joined the 21st century as rational actors

    http://rappnews.com/2016/05/19/as-the-world-turns-and-the-stones-speak/148387/

    John Henry's "Arguing with God." . . . reenacts Old Testament stories to confront uncomfortable truths about human nature and explores the psychology of how empires are built by "Chosen People," "good guys" who believe they have the moral right to use military force against "bad guys." Produced in the dramatic outdoor setting of hand-laid stone, which Henry built himself, "Arguing with God" depicts the inevitable conflict between power and justice.

    The cast is 50-actor strong, with many of the leading roles played by [Henry's neighbors and friends]. .

    (Max Blumenthal played Adam, aka "guys just wanna have fun" in a recent presentation of John Henry's play.)

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  381. American Pravda: How the CIA Invented "Conspiracy Theories" (MUST-READ) :: News From Underground says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 6:04 pm GMT

    [ ] Read More: [ ]

  382. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 6:36 pm GMT @Rurik Ok, I'll play..
    but in the commercial banking sphere which I understand to have much more to do with the money supply than the entrepreneurial investment or merchant bankers do I am unaware of any great Jewish presence. Should I be? Who and where are they?
    well wiz, you see the money supply is determined by the Fed, and that is owned and controlled by Jews (for Jews ; )

    there used to be a distinction between investment banks and the ones whose deposits were guaranteed by the FDIC. It was called Glass Steagall and they made that law after the Fed created the Great Depression. But then what happened is a couple of tenacious Jews (Rubin, Summers, et al) got Bubba to cancel out Glass and handed over the keys to our Treasury to the world's greediest swindlers.

    here they are

    http://propertypak.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/53-1.jpeg

    I don't see Rubin in the pic but he was the main architect

    you see the money supply is determined by the Fed, and that is owned and controlled by Jews (for Jews ; )

    The federal reserve is owned by Jews? The more you know

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  383. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 6:53 pm GMT • 100 Words @Jonathan Revusky
    Well, obviously the ticket disproves your CGI planes theory.
    Well, it's not my theory specifically. However, as a matter of fact, I consider it pretty likely that what we were shown on the TV on 9/11 was largely video fakery, including the collision of the planes with the buildings.

    Now, regarding Mohammed Atta's plane ticket (which I actually have never seen anyway) disproving the video fakery theory, the answer is... NO! Atta having a plane ticket does not prove or disprove anything in this regard.

    I've done a lot of air travel, you know. The fact that you have a ticket to fly on a plane at a certain time does not absolutely mean that you are on the plane and it takes off at that time. Sometimes you go to the airport for a 8:00 flight and they tell you it's delayed an hour and then they tell you it's delayed another hour. Sometimes they even cancel the flight and a representative of the airline says they'll take care of you, putting you on a different flight to your destination. (They'll usually give you a meal voucher to eat some shitty food in the airport to compensate you... been there, done that.... )

    Last year, I flew to Lithuania. I had a cheapo ticket from Barcelona to Vilnius. The flight was very delayed, and then an hour before landing, they said we weren't landing in Vilnius, but in Kaunas, and they put us all on a bus to go to Vilnius afterwards. True story. That kind of stuff happens all the time.

    The idea that, because Mohammed Atta had a ticket (so they say) this proves that the video fo the plane hitting the tower is not fake -- this is another shit eater brain fart on your part for sure. Each plane has like millions of parts, and each part has a unique serial number apparently. So there ought to be quite hard proof about which specific aircraft collided with each building, no? Yet I don't think there is any such hard proof. Like, with the Pentagon, they never show you any recognizable plane parts. And the Shanksville crash site is ridiculous. There's really just nothing there!

    So, anyway, just for the sake of argument, even if we did conclude finally that (a) a plane definitely hit the building, and (b) Mohammed Atta not only had a ticket but was also definitely on a plane, there still wouldn't be hard proof that the plane that hit the building is the one Mohammed Atta was on. If a plane did a hit a building, it could have been a completely different plane. And it still wouldn't be proof that Mohammed Atta hijacked any plane.

    Now, I'm sorry to inform you that this latest idiocy from you cannot really qualify to win this week's shit eater of the week award. You see, it's just a variant on last week's idiocy. You say: "He purchased a ticket" when asked for evidence for the official story. Now, when you want to prove that the video of the plane hitting the tower is authentic, you say: "Atta purchased a ticket."

    Okay, it is idiotic as well, but I think it's too derivative from the previous idiotic shit eater statement. I think you have to come up with some entirely new idiotic shit eater statement if you want to win this week's shit eater of the week prize.

    That's my tentative judgment anyway. Others are free to weigh in on that...

    However, as a matter of fact, I consider it pretty likely that what we were shown on the TV on 9/11 was largely video fakery

    Yeah, well that's completely stupid and contradicted by hundreds of witnesses. Is there any stupid conspiracy you DON'T believe? Let's try to keep the lengths of these posts manageable.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    Yeah, well that's completely stupid and contradicted by hundreds of witnesses.
    Hundreds of people? Really? You mean, hundreds of people saw one or more planes fly into a building with their own two eyes, i.e. NOT on the TV like the rest of us?

    Is that true? I doubt it but I cannot prove that it is untrue.

    However, the onus is logically on you to present some evidence for this. Do you have any? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  384. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 7:05 pm GMT @Jonathan Revusky
    Here are some lengthy bits from Atta's Wiki page:
    I'm sorry. I don't think this is good enough to win this week's shit eater of the week. It's very uninspired, this long copy-paste from the wikipedia page.

    I mean, the wikipedia page is just a summary of the official story. So you're basically just offering a copy-paste of the official story as proof of the official story. This is of course absolutely typical shit eater behavior, but to win shit eater of the week, it has to be standout stuff.

    Like, when I asked you what the proof of the official story and you said that Atta had purchased a ticket, that was champion class shit eater material. This long copy-paste.... Mehh..... Nah....

    You'll really have to do better.

    From what I've seen, the evidence is pretty good.
    What evidence are you referring to specifically? I have no idea what you're referring to... Let's just grab something more or less randomly from all the verbiage you copy-pasted:
    On August 6, Atta and Shehhi rented a 1995 white, four door Ford Escort from Warrick's Rent-A-Car, which was returned on August 13.
    I mean, look at the detail. It is very detailed evidence. He rented a 1995 Ford Escort. It wasn't a 1994 Ford Escort. And it wasn't a 1996 Ford Escort.

    Rented not from Hertz or Avis, but from "Warrick's Rent-a-car". WTF? Sounds like the people behind this mighta been on a tight budget... rented the cheapest shitbox car, a Ford Escort, from the most cheap-ass rental company there was...

    But, okay, this is all nitpicking. The guy was a bona fide terrorist.

    " He rented a 1995 Ford Escort, Godammit!!! WHAT MORE PROOF DO YOU CRAZY CONSPIRACY THEORISTS NEED!!!!???? "

    "He rented a 1995 Ford Escort, Godammit!!! WHAT MORE PROOF DO YOU CRAZY CONSPIRACY THEORISTS NEED!!!!????"

    You think the planes were CGI. Your opinion is worthless. I shall now only respond to you with dismissive YouTube clips.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN9LdTkR85Q

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    You think the planes were CGI.
    Well, you get all testy because supposedly I'm misquoting you (though I don't see where) and you call me a liar and all that. No possibility in your mind that I misread what you said. No, I must be willfully lying. Except I'm not. If I misquoted something you said, I can tell you it was an honest mistake'.

    Anyway, I never stated that I was certain the planes were pure CGI. Neither did Erebus. What I said was that I was fairly certain that no hijacked Boeing airliners hit any buildings. Possibly some other aircraft did, like a military drone. I'm just not sure.

    So when you say above that I think the planes were CGI, you are saying something that I never said exactly.

    But, look, this is where we're at. You say the official story is a correct version of what happened. The natural question is what the best evidence for this is. You claimed that this was a stupid question! But that, of course, was champion shit eater nonsense.

    Asking what the best evidence is, that's the most natural question there is. It's not a stupid thing to ask. So, if you admit (and I think you have tacitly admitted it) that Atta possessing a plane ticket is not really of any evidentiary value, then what have you got?

    Again: what is the strongest evidence available, in your opinion, that the official US government story is truthful?

    In particular, a key part of the story is that the plot was hatched in Afghanistan, and that was used as the cassus belli for a war that was launched. What specifically is the best evidence available that 9/11 had anything to do with faroff Afghanistan?

    We're still in Afghanistan. So it's still a very relevant, topical question and quoting long extracts of.... SHIT.... from wikipedia telling us that Mohammed Atta rented a Ford Escort or whatever other irrelevant crap they are trying to snow us with... -- that doesn't cut it man, that is decidedly unserious, dude. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  385. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 7:33 pm GMT • 100 Words @Boris
    However, as a matter of fact, I consider it pretty likely that what we were shown on the TV on 9/11 was largely video fakery
    Yeah, well that's completely stupid and contradicted by hundreds of witnesses. Is there any stupid conspiracy you DON'T believe? Let's try to keep the lengths of these posts manageable.

    Yeah, well that's completely stupid and contradicted by hundreds of witnesses.

    Hundreds of people? Really? You mean, hundreds of people saw one or more planes fly into a building with their own two eyes, i.e. NOT on the TV like the rest of us?

    Is that true? I doubt it but I cannot prove that it is untrue.

    However, the onus is logically on you to present some evidence for this. Do you have any?

    • Replies: @Boris
    Hundreds of people? Really? You mean, hundreds of people saw one or more planes fly into a building with their own two eyes, i.e. NOT on the TV like the rest of us?
    Millions of people live in New York.

    Look, you know what's easier than faking 40-odd videos with CGI and paying/planting lots of witnesses and praying that no one squeals and hoping no one finds your planes and hoping that no one videotaped the non-plane crash, and dropping a bunch of airplane debris from...somewhere? It's just crashing a plane into a building. That is so easy compared to your ludicrous scenario. The reason that you find whatever 9/11 CGI video you've seen convincing is because you just don't understand much about the evidence you're watching. And you show this behavior with the other evidence too, focusing in on car rentals. I don't know why that's in his Wiki page, but no one says it's important or vital.

    I mean, I fully intended to just keep mocking you because your persona is so grating, but...I'm just out of juice here. I mean, honestly, you're probably a nice guy. I don't know. I think you're confused on some things, but we're all confused about some things, and I understand you don't trust the government. I don't either--it just seems like there's this disconnect, that you let your distrust carry you away. I don't know, it just feels sad piling onto you at this point. And not in a sense that you're pathetic, but just in the sense that there's no common language here at all. We see logic and evidence in very different ways, at least when it comes to these topics.

    And you are not alone, lots of people believe these things. From my point of view, that's terrifying not because of 9/11 but because if people give in to their own biases when evaluating the world, then that has massive implications. That's one of the reasons I seek out places like Unz: to always challenge my own thinking. That's why I'm sitting here, slowing down and thinking about things you've written.

    If you said Bush and Cheney knew exactly what the hijackers were going to do, I might, at times, share that suspicion. But that's an unproveable conjecture with only a bit of evidence hinting at the possibility. I'm okay with never knowing. It sucks, but here we are.

    Anyway, I hereby retract all the nasty things I've said to you and wish you the best. Sure I could be lying, but I hope you'll consider that it's sincere. Unless you ARE an actual Nazi, in which case I meant every word. :) Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  386. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 7:41 pm GMT • 200 Words @Boris
    "He rented a 1995 Ford Escort, Godammit!!! WHAT MORE PROOF DO YOU CRAZY CONSPIRACY THEORISTS NEED!!!!????"
    You think the planes were CGI. Your opinion is worthless. I shall now only respond to you with dismissive YouTube clips.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN9LdTkR85Q

    You think the planes were CGI.

    Well, you get all testy because supposedly I'm misquoting you (though I don't see where) and you call me a liar and all that. No possibility in your mind that I misread what you said. No, I must be willfully lying. Except I'm not. If I misquoted something you said, I can tell you it was an honest mistake'.

    Anyway, I never stated that I was certain the planes were pure CGI. Neither did Erebus. What I said was that I was fairly certain that no hijacked Boeing airliners hit any buildings. Possibly some other aircraft did, like a military drone. I'm just not sure.

    So when you say above that I think the planes were CGI, you are saying something that I never said exactly.

    But, look, this is where we're at. You say the official story is a correct version of what happened. The natural question is what the best evidence for this is. You claimed that this was a stupid question! But that, of course, was champion shit eater nonsense.

    Asking what the best evidence is, that's the most natural question there is. It's not a stupid thing to ask. So, if you admit (and I think you have tacitly admitted it) that Atta possessing a plane ticket is not really of any evidentiary value, then what have you got?

    Again: what is the strongest evidence available, in your opinion, that the official US government story is truthful?

    In particular, a key part of the story is that the plot was hatched in Afghanistan, and that was used as the cassus belli for a war that was launched. What specifically is the best evidence available that 9/11 had anything to do with faroff Afghanistan?

    We're still in Afghanistan. So it's still a very relevant, topical question and quoting long extracts of . SHIT . from wikipedia telling us that Mohammed Atta rented a Ford Escort or whatever other irrelevant crap they are trying to snow us with - that doesn't cut it man, that is decidedly unserious, dude.

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  387. Boris says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 12, 2016 at 9:09 pm GMT • 400 Words @Jonathan Revusky
    Yeah, well that's completely stupid and contradicted by hundreds of witnesses.
    Hundreds of people? Really? You mean, hundreds of people saw one or more planes fly into a building with their own two eyes, i.e. NOT on the TV like the rest of us?

    Is that true? I doubt it but I cannot prove that it is untrue.

    However, the onus is logically on you to present some evidence for this. Do you have any?

    Hundreds of people? Really? You mean, hundreds of people saw one or more planes fly into a building with their own two eyes, i.e. NOT on the TV like the rest of us?

    Millions of people live in New York.

    Look, you know what's easier than faking 40-odd videos with CGI and paying/planting lots of witnesses and praying that no one squeals and hoping no one finds your planes and hoping that no one videotaped the non-plane crash, and dropping a bunch of airplane debris from somewhere? It's just crashing a plane into a building. That is so easy compared to your ludicrous scenario. The reason that you find whatever 9/11 CGI video you've seen convincing is because you just don't understand much about the evidence you're watching. And you show this behavior with the other evidence too, focusing in on car rentals. I don't know why that's in his Wiki page, but no one says it's important or vital.

    I mean, I fully intended to just keep mocking you because your persona is so grating, but I'm just out of juice here. I mean, honestly, you're probably a nice guy. I don't know. I think you're confused on some things, but we're all confused about some things, and I understand you don't trust the government. I don't either–it just seems like there's this disconnect, that you let your distrust carry you away. I don't know, it just feels sad piling onto you at this point. And not in a sense that you're pathetic, but just in the sense that there's no common language here at all. We see logic and evidence in very different ways, at least when it comes to these topics.

    And you are not alone, lots of people believe these things. From my point of view, that's terrifying not because of 9/11 but because if people give in to their own biases when evaluating the world, then that has massive implications. That's one of the reasons I seek out places like Unz: to always challenge my own thinking. That's why I'm sitting here, slowing down and thinking about things you've written.

    If you said Bush and Cheney knew exactly what the hijackers were going to do, I might, at times, share that suspicion. But that's an unproveable conjecture with only a bit of evidence hinting at the possibility. I'm okay with never knowing. It sucks, but here we are.

    Anyway, I hereby retract all the nasty things I've said to you and wish you the best. Sure I could be lying, but I hope you'll consider that it's sincere. Unless you ARE an actual Nazi, in which case I meant every word. :)

    • Replies: @KA Israeli did warn about potential attack by terrorist on US soil. But Israel packaged the entire information mixing with Saddam Hussen and likely terrorism from Iraqi administration. against US .That made sure that the entire information would be treated as disinformation ,because no one in intelligence ever believed

    that Saddam would attack US on its soil or anywhere .

    "The Telegraph has learnt that two senior experts with Mossad, the Israeli military intelligence service, were sent to Washington in August to alert the CIA and FBI to the existence of a cell of as many of 200 terrorists said to be preparing a big operation.

    "ISRAELI intelligence officials say that they warned their counterparts in the United States last month that large-scale terrorist attacks on highly visible targets on the American mainland were imminent.

    ""They had no specific information about what was being planned but linked the plot to Osama bin Laden and told the Americans that there were strong grounds for suspecting Iraqi involvement," said a senior Israeli security official."
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1340698/Israeli-security-issued-urgent-warning-to-CIA-of-large-scale-terror-attacks.html

    Still it should not have been ignored . Why was it ignored? , @Jonathan Revusky

    Hundreds of people? Really? You mean, hundreds of people saw one or more planes fly into a building with their own two eyes, i.e. NOT on the TV like the rest of us?
    Millions of people live in New York.
    (Sigh....)

    You really are such a dishonest shit eater, dude. The question is not how many people live in New York. Sure, there are millions of people in New York, but just for starters, how many of those people at a given point in time have a clear line of sight to be looking at the right point on the building? Like, some people are sitting in a car and only have a view of the car in front of them basically. Or they are in an office with no window or a window that just has a view of the next building....

    Of those who could be looking at the building, how many of them actually were looking in that direction? I mean, people are busy, they have things to do. They have their work and so on. They're not all just staring at a building thinking a plane is going to crash into it, you know. The people living it in real time don't know a plane is going to crash into a building, so they wouldn't be looking in that direction. Especially the first building that was allegedly hit, if you just happened to be looking that direction and see it, it would be a huge happenstance sort of thing, no? But even the second one.... who is going to be staring at the other building, thinking that ANOTHER plane is going to hit that one?

    I simply posed a legitimate question, which is how many people claim they saw a plane hit a building -- and, of course, I mean, NOT on TV! I don't know the answer to the question, honestly. I think it's quite a low number, frankly. I've heard it said that it's easy to find somebody who knows somebody who saw a plane hit a building, but it's pretty much impossible to find a person who themselves saw it happen. Probably some people say they saw it direct but then if you press them, they admit that they saw it on the TV like everybody else.

    Anyway, you said "hundreds of people saw this". Where did you get that figure, I wonder...

    Oh shit.... I see.... You pulled it out of your ass. You just made it up!

    Gee, that's pretty deplorable really, you know. Just to be making up facts in what is supposed to be a serious conversation.

    DAMN! YOU JUST MADE THAT UP!!! THAT IS REALLY COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE!!!

    YOU REALLY ARE A LITTLE LYING SHIT EATING BASTARD!!!

    Now, I do have to say that I think I have expressed myself on this before.... I don't like liars. It's really not just some pretense. I really really do not like liars LIKE YOU. I really really don't! And I particularly don't like it when a pathological liar who just makes up shit repeatedly calls ME a LIAR!

    That is really pretty scummy and is completely unacceptable.

    Look, you know what's easier than faking 40-odd videos with CGI and paying/planting lots of witnesses and praying that no one squeals and hoping no one finds your planes and hoping that no one videotaped the non-plane crash, and dropping a bunch of airplane debris from somewhere? It's just crashing a plane into a building.
    OH, GOOD GRIEF..... WTF is your problem? Did your momma repeatedly drop you when you were little? I mean, on the head?

    Uhh, yeah, right. Crashing a plane into a building is so damned easy. Or getting somebody to fly a plane into a building is easy.... Sheesh....

    You know, really, I honestly don't think so.... I do not think the Israeli civil service pay scale is quite good enough to get anybody to fly a plane into a building....

    But hold on, that's it! I think you've got this week's shit eater of the week award wrapped up!

    "Why make a fake video? It's just so easy to get people to fly planes into a building for real! No problem!!!!"

    Shit, I think you surpassed yourself. That is really champion shit eater bullshit! SUPERSTAR YOU ARE!!!

    I knew you had talent, but my god, this is epoch making. I can't believe I am really conversing with such a fucking idiot. I mean, you really must be one in a million! YES, it's just so easy to fly a plane into a building, or convince somebody to fly a plane into a building!!!

    I guess that's why there are no stuntmen working in Hollywood. If you need a scene where somebody falls off a tall building to their death, why pay stuntmen or special effects people to fake the scene??? NO!!!! You just pay somebody to jump off the building to their death for real, because THAT'S EASIER!!!

    MY GOD! YOU JUST MADE MY DAY! YOU ARE A FUCKING IDIOT!!!!! BAW HA HAAAAAH!!!!!

    Anyway, I hereby retract all the nasty things I've said to you and wish you the best.
    Okay, dude, you have made me laugh and I should thank you for that. BUT.... if the above is supposed to be some sort of apology for calling me a liar repeatedly and stuff like this, I can't really accept it. It's not good enough.

    This business where you say there are "hundreds" of people who saw the plane hit the building (with their naked eyes, NOT on TV), you just made that up and that is completely unacceptable.

    You need to explicitly apologize for that for me to even think about a reset of our relationship.

    In general, you would also have to just stop being such a complete shit eater. It might be hard, I know. I myself didn't stop being a shit eater from one day to the next.

    But at this point, there ought to be a recognition of the problem and then a sense that you're making an effort.

    This latest champion shit eater stuff that there is no need to fake a video because it's easy to get somebody to fly a plane into a building... you must have, in AA terms "hit bottom" now. That's just such ridiculous SHIT that I don't think it can be surpassed. I mean, actually, I thought the nonsense that Atta had a ticket, therefore the official story is truth, that this was insurpassable, and I was wrong. You surpassed that. This latest thing is far more dazzling, breathtaking in its idiocy.

    So if you've hit bottom now as a shit eater, you can only go up from here. But.... dude... you've got a long ways to go... Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  388. KA says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 13, 2016 at 12:28 am GMT • 200 Words @Boris
    Hundreds of people? Really? You mean, hundreds of people saw one or more planes fly into a building with their own two eyes, i.e. NOT on the TV like the rest of us?
    Millions of people live in New York.

    Look, you know what's easier than faking 40-odd videos with CGI and paying/planting lots of witnesses and praying that no one squeals and hoping no one finds your planes and hoping that no one videotaped the non-plane crash, and dropping a bunch of airplane debris from...somewhere? It's just crashing a plane into a building. That is so easy compared to your ludicrous scenario. The reason that you find whatever 9/11 CGI video you've seen convincing is because you just don't understand much about the evidence you're watching. And you show this behavior with the other evidence too, focusing in on car rentals. I don't know why that's in his Wiki page, but no one says it's important or vital.

    I mean, I fully intended to just keep mocking you because your persona is so grating, but...I'm just out of juice here. I mean, honestly, you're probably a nice guy. I don't know. I think you're confused on some things, but we're all confused about some things, and I understand you don't trust the government. I don't either--it just seems like there's this disconnect, that you let your distrust carry you away. I don't know, it just feels sad piling onto you at this point. And not in a sense that you're pathetic, but just in the sense that there's no common language here at all. We see logic and evidence in very different ways, at least when it comes to these topics.

    And you are not alone, lots of people believe these things. From my point of view, that's terrifying not because of 9/11 but because if people give in to their own biases when evaluating the world, then that has massive implications. That's one of the reasons I seek out places like Unz: to always challenge my own thinking. That's why I'm sitting here, slowing down and thinking about things you've written.

    If you said Bush and Cheney knew exactly what the hijackers were going to do, I might, at times, share that suspicion. But that's an unproveable conjecture with only a bit of evidence hinting at the possibility. I'm okay with never knowing. It sucks, but here we are.

    Anyway, I hereby retract all the nasty things I've said to you and wish you the best. Sure I could be lying, but I hope you'll consider that it's sincere. Unless you ARE an actual Nazi, in which case I meant every word. :)

    Israeli did warn about potential attack by terrorist on US soil. But Israel packaged the entire information mixing with Saddam Hussen and likely terrorism from Iraqi administration. against US .That made sure that the entire information would be treated as disinformation ,because no one in intelligence ever believed

    that Saddam would attack US on its soil or anywhere .

    "The Telegraph has learnt that two senior experts with Mossad, the Israeli military intelligence service, were sent to Washington in August to alert the CIA and FBI to the existence of a cell of as many of 200 terrorists said to be preparing a big operation.

    "ISRAELI intelligence officials say that they warned their counterparts in the United States last month that large-scale terrorist attacks on highly visible targets on the American mainland were imminent.

    ""They had no specific information about what was being planned but linked the plot to Osama bin Laden and told the Americans that there were strong grounds for suspecting Iraqi involvement," said a senior Israeli security official."
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1340698/Israeli-security-issued-urgent-warning-to-CIA-of-large-scale-terror-attacks.html

    Still it should not have been ignored . Why was it ignored?

    • Replies: @utu "Still it should not have been ignored . Why was it ignored?" - Because it did not happen or their mission was disinfo cover up. , @Wizard of Oz Thanks for that link to the Telegraph story. It incidentally offers an explanation for Cheney's urging the CIA to come up with an Iraq connection as shown in the PBS doco "The Secret History of ISIS". After all if Mossad had been ahead of the CIA on the main plot they might well be right about Iraq. It will be a long time before we will know whether Mossad believed there was an Iraqi connection. , @Jonathan Revusky
    Still it should not have been ignored . Why was it ignored?
    With all due respect, I think you have some conceptual gaps in your understanding of these sorts of psy ops.

    A big component of a synthetic narrative is what you could call preparing the terrain or foreshadowing. I tend to use the word "prefiguration".

    I don't say this to offend you, but I just don't think you have too much concept of prefiguration . You see it in other psy ops, like with Charlie Hebdo, the event was prefigured with these other things where Muslims were supposed to be so outraged about some cartoons.

    All this stuff that the various government agencies were receiving warnings "Osama Bin Laden about to attack America" -- this is all synthetic prefiguration . Can't you see that? Just think about it.

    What you then get are these narratives about how the various agencies were "incompetent" because they ignored all these "warnings" and blah blah.

    Actually, the key thing to get out of this is the Mossad did, I guess, play a role in prefiguring the attacks by putting out these "friendly warnings" (LOL) that OBL is gonna come get you and ya dee da..... I mean, once you understand what basically happened, you can see this stuff for what it is.

    That is all a red herring and then they create these cookie crumb trails that lead nowhere, or lead to Saudi Arabia or whatever.... which is basically nowhere, in terms of figuring out who really did 9/11.

    Well, in short, this whole branch of the conversation of "why they ignored the warnings" is amounts to falling for a constructed distraction. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  389. Sam Shama says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 13, 2016 at 1:28 am GMT • 600 Words @Rurik Hey L.K.,
    holocau$t is a monstrous Hoax?
    I think you're right about some of the trolls here, or so it seems to me

    but this is the thing vis-a-vis the Holocau$t. I don't like calling the whole thing a hoax, because then it sort of looks like you're suggesting that NONE of any of that stuff happened, when I believe that it's clear that Jews (and many others) were systematically persecuted by the Nazis for being Jews, and not necessarily for any crimes they committed. Just like the Japanese in the US during the war. If they Japanese claimed there were gas chambers at the camps where they were held, then I think it would be fair and prudent to examine those claims for veracity, just as in the case of the Holocaust- where I don't think they had homicidal gas chambers for human extermination purposes. But that doesn't change the fact that many people perished in those camps, and many of them were innocent Jews, and if the Jews want to call that particular suffering a name to commemorate it, just like what the Japanese went through, then I don't see what's wrong with that per se.

    That it has become this momentous blood libel against the German people in particular and all Gentiles in general is just another testament to the power of the lobby.

    Controlling the world's banks and money supply and therefor all the media of consequence and all the major politicians (and publishing houses and courts and universities, etc..) has had an effect on things. The Eternal WarsⓊ being perhaps the most troublesome for the moment.

    I believe that it's clear that Jews (and many others) were systematically persecuted by the Nazis for being Jews, and not necessarily for any crimes they committed.
    [...]
    But that doesn't change the fact that many people perished in those camps, and many of them were innocent Jews, and if the Jews want to call that particular suffering a name to commemorate it, just like what the Japanese went through, then I don't see what's wrong with that per se.

    Rurik,
    As I've said in some previous posts, you have an admirable capacity for gleaning the essence of some important subjects. The aforementioned, more or less my own feelings about the Holocaust, was an event which occurred in the midst of a period that saw tens of millions slaughtered. They were certainly not just Jews. To be frank I never dwelt on the subject too much in my adult life, [even though the real experience of what happened to my kin is very close to me - my granny, whom I spare the ordeal these days of retelling her life events; and she holds no grudge, none at all] i.e., until I stumbled upon the Unz Review last year. This publication seems to be rife with discussions, of which, the ultimate goals are clear; and I needn't explicate the obvious. So again, I am completely unfamiliar with this charge of people exploiting the Holocaust for personal gains. I really don't know any.

    Furthermore there is no blood libel on Germans. Nazis, on the other hand were 'no boy scouts' indeed! We all relate to personal experiences. So in my case, my work brings me in contact with a large number of Europeans and Germans. I can tell you nothing but positive things about my contacts [on a lighter note I've dated German girls and they are a fun loving lot].

    There is perhaps a grain of truth in what you say regarding what has become verboten in polite society, and by extension in the media. I hardly think any decent, educated person would use the 'n' word e.g. Its an assault on basic humanity. So is calling an Asian, A Jew, an Arab, A muslim, A White man or a woman by derogatory terms. Its simply not done in this day an age [more generally I am revolted by some of the verbal obscenity that goes on here, led by Revusky, a man I lament to admit a co-religionist] . More specifically, I am against any laws that stifle free speech and expression. So if certain laws are oppressive, the majoritarian system that created those in the first place, ought to be utilised to render them null and void post partum. [In the case of Ursula H., there is more to her story than meets the eye. She had been held in contempt of court on a few occasions, having used her age and the fragility associated with it, to provoke the legal/judicial system, when the judges finally threw the book at her. They will brook defiance of the law up to a certain extent and no more. Still, I understand it is galling to witness a granny thrown in gaol for nothing more than revisionist activism. Who made those laws?]

    Jews don't control the world's money supply. A person like you ought to rid yourself of this risible notion. [Its a discussion we've had often and let's avoid it this time shall we? btw I commented on Mike Whitney's piece apropos, and we might continue on this subject there if you so wish]

    cheers.

    • Replies: @Rurik Hey Sam,
    As I've said in some previous posts, you have an admirable capacity for gleaning the essence of some important subjects. ... ...This publication seems to be rife with discussions, of which, the ultimate goals are clear; and I needn't explicate the obvious.
    I will take the first part as a complement and offer my gratitude at your graciousness in offering it. Since we don't always see eye to eye, so to speak. As for the second part, I'm not sure what the obvious is. If it's to demean or downplay the suffering of your loved one, then I don't think that's what anyone is trying to do. But I do think I get your gist.
    So again, I am completely unfamiliar with this charge of people exploiting the Holocaust for personal gains. I really don't know any.
    not for personal gain per se. Although I'm sure there are some who're guilty of that. Rather it's to benefit a amorphous idea that is most succinctly described as "What's good for the Jews". And as we all know, there have been myriad benefits to be gleaned (both by Israel in particular and Jews in general) from the guilt and sympathy people have felt for 'the Jews' vis-a-vis the Holocaust.
    Furthermore there is no blood libel on Germans. Nazis, on the other hand were 'no boy scouts' indeed!
    a little while back I was watching a show with my previous girlfriend, CSI or some such. And the story line was beginning to look as if it was the Wolfowitz's who were guilty of an unspeakably heinous crime. They also had an adopted child who was of German ancestry. I didn't have to watch the show to remark to my gal that it would end up that the Wolfowitz's were innocent, but even I was surprised that -as it turned out- that it was (shock, shock) the adopted but now grown boy who was guilty, - that as the investigators were discussing the solution to the crime, the one mentioned to the other, well I guess what happened is 'the nature won out over the nurture'. IOW all Germans are congenitally evil, even when they're raised in an eternally forgiving Jewish household. That for me was Hollywood in a nutshell.
    We all relate to personal experiences. So in my case, my work brings me in contact with a large number of Europeans and Germans. I can tell you nothing but positive things about my contacts [on a lighter note I've dated German girls and they are a fun loving lot].
    I like em too. Brash and brassy and tough. And you're right, we all see things though the prism of our own life experiences and perspectives. I'm sure that had I grown up hearing about how Germans murdered and tried to genocide my people, that such a thing would necessarily have an effect on me. Just as if I were a black man and heard nothing else but what the white man had done to my ancestors, or more to the point, how he was relentlessly holding me down, or all the other narratives and paradigms that we all marinate in, all have an effect on our psyches and view points. This is true.
    There is perhaps a grain of truth in what you say regarding what has become verboten in polite society, and by extension in the media. I hardly think any decent, educated person would use the 'n' word e.g. Its an assault on basic humanity.
    well I've used it, but then I never pretended to be a member of polite society. Hardly. There are some people whom I would refer to as niggers. Not Obama, certainly not. He's not a nigger in my book. An empty suit and a war criminal, sure. A racist and a Marxist, yea, but not a nigger. For me a nigger is a low-life POS, black or white. And who revels in being a low-life POS. The animals who perpetrated the crimes notoriously reviled as the 'Wichita Massacre' are straight up niggers, in my book. Same with the sub-human animals who murdered Channon Christian. Niggers to a T. I don't shrink from using words that describe something in such a succinct, if jarring way. And I also am not trying to write for the NYT. I'm here writing simply for the purpose of conveying what I consider to be an honest and ingenuous search for the truth.
    Its an assault on basic humanity. So is calling an Asian, A Jew, an Arab, A muslim, A White man or a woman by derogatory terms.
    oh Lord Sam, that's soo politically correct. Have some fun for God's sake. Trust me, African Americans can take being called the 'n' word. I've never known a people to use a word with such alacrity as a Negro uses the word 'nigger'. It's like the Irish with the word 'fuck'. Take those words away from them and they'd be mute. I've been called a 'redneck, hillbilly, cracker', even a CIS, and it's like water off a ducks back. I didn't even get 'triggered'. We need to grow a little thicker bark I think today. Everyone's so sensitive.
    led by Revusky
    JR is passionate. When he goes on about lurid description of anatomy, I'm not put off at all. (even if I confess I am occasionally put off by relentless flame wars) I remember how the Priss talked about how Ann Coulter had 'the Jews' dick in her mouth and she was using too much teeth at times, and I had to laugh. Come on Sam, get out of your Etonian linguistic straight jacket. Break the bonds of puritan parameters on your discourse. You'll breath and write freer, and how could that ever be a bad thing? [see Hunter S., Thomson]
    In the case of Ursula H., there is more to her story than meets the eye. She had been held in contempt of court on a few occasions,
    oh my gosh! say it isn't so!!!
    to provoke the legal/judicial system
    gasp!
    They will brook defiance of the law up to a certain extent and no more
    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/6K6ukRrKjKY/hqdefault.jpg

    sorry, but that is the image that came to my mind

    or this one

    http://www.zerofiltered.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Nurse-Ratched-Unsung-Films-2.jpg

    it troubles me Sam, that you would write such a thing and not see the glaring tyrannical undertones of such a statement.

    Who made those laws?]
    umm.. Western governments under Zionist occupation?
    Jews don't control the world's money supply. A person like you ought to rid yourself of this risible notion.
    not Jews per se Sam. Not my colleagues at work or my dentist or neighbors or relatives or friends. No, they sure don't. But there are a few Jews who wield inordinate power over the financial markets of the Western world, Sam. Like the Rothscild agents, known as the "Russian" oligarchs who looted the wealth and reasources of Russia proper. Those Jews Sam, do control money supplies and markets and banks and control Wall Street and the Fed and the Treasury and other influential institutions of the world's money supply. And I suspect that you're more or less aware of all of that Sam. But for this kind of thing to be common knowledge, would not necessarily be "good for the Jews", now would it Sam? Perhaps people might start to wonder why we need to have a Goldman Sachs boy holding the keys to the US Treasury. Or running the unaccountable Federal Reserve Bank. Eh Sam?
    and we might continue on this subject there if you so wish]
    my pleasure, but not at the moment

    Cheers to you as well Sam :) , @Jonathan Revusky

    Still, I understand it is galling to witness a granny thrown in gaol for nothing more than revisionist activism. Who made those laws?
    You cannot possibly be that stupid.

    Maybe you're trying to win the shit eater of the week prize. I mentioned that 2017 Golda Meir nude pictorial calendar and that must have really incentivized you... Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  390. utu says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 13, 2016 at 2:59 am GMT @KA Israeli did warn about potential attack by terrorist on US soil. But Israel packaged the entire information mixing with Saddam Hussen and likely terrorism from Iraqi administration. against US .That made sure that the entire information would be treated as disinformation ,because no one in intelligence ever believed

    that Saddam would attack US on its soil or anywhere .

    "The Telegraph has learnt that two senior experts with Mossad, the Israeli military intelligence service, were sent to Washington in August to alert the CIA and FBI to the existence of a cell of as many of 200 terrorists said to be preparing a big operation.

    "ISRAELI intelligence officials say that they warned their counterparts in the United States last month that large-scale terrorist attacks on highly visible targets on the American mainland were imminent.

    ""They had no specific information about what was being planned but linked the plot to Osama bin Laden and told the Americans that there were strong grounds for suspecting Iraqi involvement," said a senior Israeli security official."
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1340698/Israeli-security-issued-urgent-warning-to-CIA-of-large-scale-terror-attacks.html

    Still it should not have been ignored . Why was it ignored?

    "Still it should not have been ignored . Why was it ignored?" – Because it did not happen or their mission was disinfo cover up.

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  391. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 13, 2016 at 4:58 am GMT @Rurik
    After all I am 99 per cent sure that you have absolutely no qualifications either in knowledge or reasoning power to give any authority ...
    you don't need a degree in engineering to see that building seven was brought down by controlled demolition. Duh

    and I have no such degree, but I am a successful businessman who builds things out of metal (and concrete among other materials), and I understand their properties intimately. - If I didn't, then the things I built wouldn't last and function properly and I wouldn't have managed to be successful enough that I would waste time bantering around inanities with someone like you on the Internet. ;)

    I almost pay you a compliment at #201 on The Saker's 9/11 thread :-)

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  392. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 13, 2016 at 5:22 am GMT • 100 Words @KA Israeli did warn about potential attack by terrorist on US soil. But Israel packaged the entire information mixing with Saddam Hussen and likely terrorism from Iraqi administration. against US .That made sure that the entire information would be treated as disinformation ,because no one in intelligence ever believed

    that Saddam would attack US on its soil or anywhere .

    "The Telegraph has learnt that two senior experts with Mossad, the Israeli military intelligence service, were sent to Washington in August to alert the CIA and FBI to the existence of a cell of as many of 200 terrorists said to be preparing a big operation.

    "ISRAELI intelligence officials say that they warned their counterparts in the United States last month that large-scale terrorist attacks on highly visible targets on the American mainland were imminent.

    ""They had no specific information about what was being planned but linked the plot to Osama bin Laden and told the Americans that there were strong grounds for suspecting Iraqi involvement," said a senior Israeli security official."
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1340698/Israeli-security-issued-urgent-warning-to-CIA-of-large-scale-terror-attacks.html

    Still it should not have been ignored . Why was it ignored?

    Thanks for that link to the Telegraph story. It incidentally offers an explanation for Cheney's urging the CIA to come up with an Iraq connection as shown in the PBS doco "The Secret History of ISIS". After all if Mossad had been ahead of the CIA on the main plot they might well be right about Iraq. It will be a long time before we will know whether Mossad believed there was an Iraqi connection.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    It will be a long time before we will know whether Mossad believed there was an Iraqi connection.
    Oh, well, this is all just total bullshit. But hey, what can one expect from some pathetic old Aussie shit eater who thinks that the proof of the official story is that it's the official story?

    The Iraqi regime was completely transparent to U.S. intelligence. They had an asset right at the top of the government, at the cabinet level, for example, somebody who would have known whether Iraq had WMD or not. And they surely had informers throughout the Iraqi government, it was totally infiltrated. If U.S. Intelligence knew what was going on in Iraq, you can be pretty damned sure that Mossad knew whatever they did.

    The whole idea that Mossad or CIA sincerely believed that Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11, this is complete nonsense, of course. Everybody who knows anything knows that at this point. Of course, you don't know anything, which is why you don't know that.

    This is another characteristic of a shit eater. They just manage, year after year, to remain ignorant of the most basic facts that are available. , @KA Saddam was just a 'neighborhood bully,' Netanyahu says– 13 years after saying Saddam threatened 'security of our entire world' -
    to AEI's Pletka

    "Mind you, Saddam was horrible, horrible. Brutal killer. So was Qaddafi. There's no question about that. I had my own dealings with each of them. But I do want to say that they were in many ways, neighborhood bullies. That is, they tormented their immediate environment. But they were not wedded to a larger goal. The militant Islamists–either Iran leading the militant Shi'ites with their proxies Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad and Hamas Or the militant Sunnis led by ISIS they have a larger goal in mind Their goal is not the conquest of the Middle East. It's the conquest of the world. It's unbelievable, people don't believe "

    Hold on a second. Thirteen years ago in testimony to Congress, Netanyahu said that Saddam did represent a threat to the entire world. Excerpts (thanks to Jim Lobe at lobelog):

    http://mondoweiss.net/2015/11/neighborhood-netanyahu-threatened/#sthash.VP3FYo80.dpuf


    Mossad is ventriloquizing through the malleable vocal cord of these psychopath
    That Mossad gave the 9pre 911 information to US . Telegraph as stenographer reported it
    They are still doing and Telegraph is still reporting , @KA "Netanyahu was alarmed by the signals from both Tehran and Washington in the summer of 1997 indicating interest in reducing tensions between the two countries. That would have represented a real threat to Israel's political and strategic interests, and he was determined to cut it short. Netanyahu's response was to start to begin sending messages to Iran through other governments that Israel would carry out pre-emptive strikes against Iranian missile development sites unless it stopped its ballistic missile programme."

    Gareth Porter. --http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/03/06/israels-long-history-of-gaming-the-iranian-threat/

    Another wide open evident building and spreading of conspiracy involving intelligence,media foreign entities .
    Just as Soviet disappearance gave rise to fervent creation of " Green Peril' from Malayasia to Sudan, the disappearance of tension between Iran and US in 1997 made the Netanyhu ( the whole Israeli regime) go off the deep end . They started conjuring of Shi crescent , worldwide Iranian sleeper cells , Yellow Robbon, " Wiping off the map" , killing American soldiers, sending terrorist to Western Hemisphere and latest addition to that Money - driven garbled claims is the ransom.

    Israel needs an enemy and wants America to fight . American politicians ,some stupid Evangelics, and CNN. FOC drink that Kool Aid first thing in morning . Conspiracy goes unchecked. Unscrutinized ,unquestioned .
    Actually conspiracy factory is so active,it churns out periodically predictably and consisyently one letter head organization after another like Israeli Project,David Project,ECI FDD Campus Watch who have usually one particular lie to promote at a given time before conjuring up another lie Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  393. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 13, 2016 at 2:15 pm GMT • 300 Words @KA Israeli did warn about potential attack by terrorist on US soil. But Israel packaged the entire information mixing with Saddam Hussen and likely terrorism from Iraqi administration. against US .That made sure that the entire information would be treated as disinformation ,because no one in intelligence ever believed

    that Saddam would attack US on its soil or anywhere .

    "The Telegraph has learnt that two senior experts with Mossad, the Israeli military intelligence service, were sent to Washington in August to alert the CIA and FBI to the existence of a cell of as many of 200 terrorists said to be preparing a big operation.

    "ISRAELI intelligence officials say that they warned their counterparts in the United States last month that large-scale terrorist attacks on highly visible targets on the American mainland were imminent.

    ""They had no specific information about what was being planned but linked the plot to Osama bin Laden and told the Americans that there were strong grounds for suspecting Iraqi involvement," said a senior Israeli security official."
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1340698/Israeli-security-issued-urgent-warning-to-CIA-of-large-scale-terror-attacks.html

    Still it should not have been ignored . Why was it ignored?

    Still it should not have been ignored . Why was it ignored?

    With all due respect, I think you have some conceptual gaps in your understanding of these sorts of psy ops.

    A big component of a synthetic narrative is what you could call preparing the terrain or foreshadowing. I tend to use the word "prefiguration".

    I don't say this to offend you, but I just don't think you have too much concept of prefiguration . You see it in other psy ops, like with Charlie Hebdo, the event was prefigured with these other things where Muslims were supposed to be so outraged about some cartoons.

    All this stuff that the various government agencies were receiving warnings "Osama Bin Laden about to attack America" - this is all synthetic prefiguration . Can't you see that? Just think about it.

    What you then get are these narratives about how the various agencies were "incompetent" because they ignored all these "warnings" and blah blah.

    Actually, the key thing to get out of this is the Mossad did, I guess, play a role in prefiguring the attacks by putting out these "friendly warnings" (LOL) that OBL is gonna come get you and ya dee da .. I mean, once you understand what basically happened, you can see this stuff for what it is.

    That is all a red herring and then they create these cookie crumb trails that lead nowhere, or lead to Saudi Arabia or whatever . which is basically nowhere, in terms of figuring out who really did 9/11.

    Well, in short, this whole branch of the conversation of "why they ignored the warnings" is amounts to falling for a constructed distraction.

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  394. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 13, 2016 at 2:23 pm GMT • 200 Words @Wizard of Oz Thanks for that link to the Telegraph story. It incidentally offers an explanation for Cheney's urging the CIA to come up with an Iraq connection as shown in the PBS doco "The Secret History of ISIS". After all if Mossad had been ahead of the CIA on the main plot they might well be right about Iraq. It will be a long time before we will know whether Mossad believed there was an Iraqi connection.

    It will be a long time before we will know whether Mossad believed there was an Iraqi connection.

    Oh, well, this is all just total bullshit. But hey, what can one expect from some pathetic old Aussie shit eater who thinks that the proof of the official story is that it's the official story?

    The Iraqi regime was completely transparent to U.S. intelligence. They had an asset right at the top of the government, at the cabinet level, for example, somebody who would have known whether Iraq had WMD or not. And they surely had informers throughout the Iraqi government, it was totally infiltrated. If U.S. Intelligence knew what was going on in Iraq, you can be pretty damned sure that Mossad knew whatever they did.

    The whole idea that Mossad or CIA sincerely believed that Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11, this is complete nonsense, of course. Everybody who knows anything knows that at this point. Of course, you don't know anything, which is why you don't know that.

    This is another characteristic of a shit eater. They just manage, year after year, to remain ignorant of the most basic facts that are available.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz I said "know " not "believe"..... Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  395. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 13, 2016 at 3:12 pm GMT • 1,100 Words @Boris
    Hundreds of people? Really? You mean, hundreds of people saw one or more planes fly into a building with their own two eyes, i.e. NOT on the TV like the rest of us?
    Millions of people live in New York.

    Look, you know what's easier than faking 40-odd videos with CGI and paying/planting lots of witnesses and praying that no one squeals and hoping no one finds your planes and hoping that no one videotaped the non-plane crash, and dropping a bunch of airplane debris from...somewhere? It's just crashing a plane into a building. That is so easy compared to your ludicrous scenario. The reason that you find whatever 9/11 CGI video you've seen convincing is because you just don't understand much about the evidence you're watching. And you show this behavior with the other evidence too, focusing in on car rentals. I don't know why that's in his Wiki page, but no one says it's important or vital.

    I mean, I fully intended to just keep mocking you because your persona is so grating, but...I'm just out of juice here. I mean, honestly, you're probably a nice guy. I don't know. I think you're confused on some things, but we're all confused about some things, and I understand you don't trust the government. I don't either--it just seems like there's this disconnect, that you let your distrust carry you away. I don't know, it just feels sad piling onto you at this point. And not in a sense that you're pathetic, but just in the sense that there's no common language here at all. We see logic and evidence in very different ways, at least when it comes to these topics.

    And you are not alone, lots of people believe these things. From my point of view, that's terrifying not because of 9/11 but because if people give in to their own biases when evaluating the world, then that has massive implications. That's one of the reasons I seek out places like Unz: to always challenge my own thinking. That's why I'm sitting here, slowing down and thinking about things you've written.

    If you said Bush and Cheney knew exactly what the hijackers were going to do, I might, at times, share that suspicion. But that's an unproveable conjecture with only a bit of evidence hinting at the possibility. I'm okay with never knowing. It sucks, but here we are.

    Anyway, I hereby retract all the nasty things I've said to you and wish you the best. Sure I could be lying, but I hope you'll consider that it's sincere. Unless you ARE an actual Nazi, in which case I meant every word. :)

    Hundreds of people? Really? You mean, hundreds of people saw one or more planes fly into a building with their own two eyes, i.e. NOT on the TV like the rest of us?

    Millions of people live in New York.

    (Sigh .)

    You really are such a dishonest shit eater, dude. The question is not how many people live in New York. Sure, there are millions of people in New York, but just for starters, how many of those people at a given point in time have a clear line of sight to be looking at the right point on the building? Like, some people are sitting in a car and only have a view of the car in front of them basically. Or they are in an office with no window or a window that just has a view of the next building .

    Of those who could be looking at the building, how many of them actually were looking in that direction? I mean, people are busy, they have things to do. They have their work and so on. They're not all just staring at a building thinking a plane is going to crash into it, you know. The people living it in real time don't know a plane is going to crash into a building, so they wouldn't be looking in that direction. Especially the first building that was allegedly hit, if you just happened to be looking that direction and see it, it would be a huge happenstance sort of thing, no? But even the second one . who is going to be staring at the other building, thinking that ANOTHER plane is going to hit that one?

    I simply posed a legitimate question, which is how many people claim they saw a plane hit a building - and, of course, I mean, NOT on TV! I don't know the answer to the question, honestly. I think it's quite a low number, frankly. I've heard it said that it's easy to find somebody who knows somebody who saw a plane hit a building, but it's pretty much impossible to find a person who themselves saw it happen. Probably some people say they saw it direct but then if you press them, they admit that they saw it on the TV like everybody else.

    Anyway, you said "hundreds of people saw this". Where did you get that figure, I wonder

    Oh shit . I see . You pulled it out of your ass. You just made it up!

    Gee, that's pretty deplorable really, you know. Just to be making up facts in what is supposed to be a serious conversation.

    DAMN! YOU JUST MADE THAT UP!!! THAT IS REALLY COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE!!!

    YOU REALLY ARE A LITTLE LYING SHIT EATING BASTARD!!!

    Now, I do have to say that I think I have expressed myself on this before . I don't like liars. It's really not just some pretense. I really really do not like liars LIKE YOU. I really really don't! And I particularly don't like it when a pathological liar who just makes up shit repeatedly calls ME a LIAR!

    That is really pretty scummy and is completely unacceptable.

    Look, you know what's easier than faking 40-odd videos with CGI and paying/planting lots of witnesses and praying that no one squeals and hoping no one finds your planes and hoping that no one videotaped the non-plane crash, and dropping a bunch of airplane debris from somewhere? It's just crashing a plane into a building.

    OH, GOOD GRIEF .. WTF is your problem? Did your momma repeatedly drop you when you were little? I mean, on the head?

    Uhh, yeah, right. Crashing a plane into a building is so damned easy. Or getting somebody to fly a plane into a building is easy . Sheesh .

    You know, really, I honestly don't think so . I do not think the Israeli civil service pay scale is quite good enough to get anybody to fly a plane into a building .

    But hold on, that's it! I think you've got this week's shit eater of the week award wrapped up!

    "Why make a fake video? It's just so easy to get people to fly planes into a building for real! No problem!!!!"

    Shit, I think you surpassed yourself. That is really champion shit eater bullshit! SUPERSTAR YOU ARE!!!

    I knew you had talent, but my god, this is epoch making. I can't believe I am really conversing with such a fucking idiot. I mean, you really must be one in a million! YES, it's just so easy to fly a plane into a building, or convince somebody to fly a plane into a building!!!

    I guess that's why there are no stuntmen working in Hollywood. If you need a scene where somebody falls off a tall building to their death, why pay stuntmen or special effects people to fake the scene??? NO!!!! You just pay somebody to jump off the building to their death for real, because THAT'S EASIER!!!

    MY GOD! YOU JUST MADE MY DAY! YOU ARE A FUCKING IDIOT!!!!! BAW HA HAAAAAH!!!!!

    Anyway, I hereby retract all the nasty things I've said to you and wish you the best.

    Okay, dude, you have made me laugh and I should thank you for that. BUT . if the above is supposed to be some sort of apology for calling me a liar repeatedly and stuff like this, I can't really accept it. It's not good enough.

    This business where you say there are "hundreds" of people who saw the plane hit the building (with their naked eyes, NOT on TV), you just made that up and that is completely unacceptable.

    You need to explicitly apologize for that for me to even think about a reset of our relationship.

    In general, you would also have to just stop being such a complete shit eater. It might be hard, I know. I myself didn't stop being a shit eater from one day to the next.

    But at this point, there ought to be a recognition of the problem and then a sense that you're making an effort.

    This latest champion shit eater stuff that there is no need to fake a video because it's easy to get somebody to fly a plane into a building you must have, in AA terms "hit bottom" now. That's just such ridiculous SHIT that I don't think it can be surpassed. I mean, actually, I thought the nonsense that Atta had a ticket, therefore the official story is truth, that this was insurpassable, and I was wrong. You surpassed that. This latest thing is far more dazzling, breathtaking in its idiocy.

    So if you've hit bottom now as a shit eater, you can only go up from here. But . dude you've got a long ways to go

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  396. Anonymous says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 13, 2016 at 4:28 pm GMT • 100 Words

    I don't want to be part of this crazy shouting match, but I saw the second plane hit. We were all watching the towers after the 1st impact, hell there must have been about 100 spectators gathered around the street level around 500 yards or a bit less away from the Tower ground esplanade, paused. The second impact came in less than I'd say 20 mins! We stuck around for another 10 mins until fire dept. came in numbers and cops together started driving people away.What are you talking about TV man?!!

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    I saw the second plane hit
    That's interesting. Could you provide your name and some contact details so that we could talk to you and assess how credible this is? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  397. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 13, 2016 at 7:01 pm GMT @Anonymous I don't want to be part of this crazy shouting match, but I saw the second plane hit. We were all watching the towers after the 1st impact, hell there must have been about 100 spectators gathered around the street level around 500 yards or a bit less away from the Tower ground esplanade, paused. The second impact came in less than I'd say 20 mins! We stuck around for another 10 mins until fire dept. came in numbers and cops together started driving people away.What are you talking about TV man?!!

    I saw the second plane hit

    That's interesting. Could you provide your name and some contact details so that we could talk to you and assess how credible this is?

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  398. Anonymous says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 13, 2016 at 8:39 pm GMT

    Yes sure, that's all I need a bunch of crazies calling me up about 9/11 "truth". Take my post for what it is worth to you, I don't care about your "how credible this is" test either. And yeah, there WERE hundreds of people watching it!

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    And yeah, there WERE hundreds of people watching it!
    Oh really? Did any of those people have a name? Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  399. Rurik says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 13, 2016 at 9:42 pm GMT • 1,300 Words @Sam Shama
    I believe that it's clear that Jews (and many others) were systematically persecuted by the Nazis for being Jews, and not necessarily for any crimes they committed.
    [...]
    But that doesn't change the fact that many people perished in those camps, and many of them were innocent Jews, and if the Jews want to call that particular suffering a name to commemorate it, just like what the Japanese went through, then I don't see what's wrong with that per se.
    Rurik,
    As I've said in some previous posts, you have an admirable capacity for gleaning the essence of some important subjects. The aforementioned, more or less my own feelings about the Holocaust, was an event which occurred in the midst of a period that saw tens of millions slaughtered. They were certainly not just Jews. To be frank I never dwelt on the subject too much in my adult life, [even though the real experience of what happened to my kin is very close to me - my granny, whom I spare the ordeal these days of retelling her life events; and she holds no grudge, none at all] i.e., until I stumbled upon the Unz Review last year. This publication seems to be rife with discussions, of which, the ultimate goals are clear; and I needn't explicate the obvious. So again, I am completely unfamiliar with this charge of people exploiting the Holocaust for personal gains. I really don't know any.

    Furthermore there is no blood libel on Germans. Nazis, on the other hand were 'no boy scouts' indeed! We all relate to personal experiences. So in my case, my work brings me in contact with a large number of Europeans and Germans. I can tell you nothing but positive things about my contacts [on a lighter note I've dated German girls and they are a fun loving lot].

    There is perhaps a grain of truth in what you say regarding what has become verboten in polite society, and by extension in the media. I hardly think any decent, educated person would use the 'n' word e.g. Its an assault on basic humanity. So is calling an Asian, A Jew, an Arab, A muslim, A White man or a woman by derogatory terms. Its simply not done in this day an age [more generally I am revolted by some of the verbal obscenity that goes on here, led by Revusky, a man I lament to admit a co-religionist] . More specifically, I am against any laws that stifle free speech and expression. So if certain laws are oppressive, the majoritarian system that created those in the first place, ought to be utilised to render them null and void post partum. [In the case of Ursula H., there is more to her story than meets the eye. She had been held in contempt of court on a few occasions, having used her age and the fragility associated with it, to provoke the legal/judicial system, when the judges finally threw the book at her. They will brook defiance of the law up to a certain extent and no more. Still, I understand it is galling to witness a granny thrown in gaol for nothing more than revisionist activism. Who made those laws?]

    Jews don't control the world's money supply. A person like you ought to rid yourself of this risible notion. [Its a discussion we've had often and let's avoid it this time shall we? btw I commented on Mike Whitney's piece apropos, and we might continue on this subject there if you so wish]

    cheers.

    Hey Sam,

    As I've said in some previous posts, you have an admirable capacity for gleaning the essence of some important subjects. This publication seems to be rife with discussions, of which, the ultimate goals are clear; and I needn't explicate the obvious.

    I will take the first part as a complement and offer my gratitude at your graciousness in offering it. Since we don't always see eye to eye, so to speak. As for the second part, I'm not sure what the obvious is. If it's to demean or downplay the suffering of your loved one, then I don't think that's what anyone is trying to do. But I do think I get your gist.

    So again, I am completely unfamiliar with this charge of people exploiting the Holocaust for personal gains. I really don't know any.

    not for personal gain per se. Although I'm sure there are some who're guilty of that. Rather it's to benefit a amorphous idea that is most succinctly described as "What's good for the Jews". And as we all know, there have been myriad benefits to be gleaned (both by Israel in particular and Jews in general) from the guilt and sympathy people have felt for 'the Jews' vis-a-vis the Holocaust.

    Furthermore there is no blood libel on Germans. Nazis, on the other hand were 'no boy scouts' indeed!

    a little while back I was watching a show with my previous girlfriend, CSI or some such. And the story line was beginning to look as if it was the Wolfowitz's who were guilty of an unspeakably heinous crime. They also had an adopted child who was of German ancestry. I didn't have to watch the show to remark to my gal that it would end up that the Wolfowitz's were innocent, but even I was surprised that -as it turned out- that it was (shock, shock) the adopted but now grown boy who was guilty, – that as the investigators were discussing the solution to the crime, the one mentioned to the other, well I guess what happened is 'the nature won out over the nurture'. IOW all Germans are congenitally evil, even when they're raised in an eternally forgiving Jewish household. That for me was Hollywood in a nutshell.

    We all relate to personal experiences. So in my case, my work brings me in contact with a large number of Europeans and Germans. I can tell you nothing but positive things about my contacts [on a lighter note I've dated German girls and they are a fun loving lot].

    I like em too. Brash and brassy and tough. And you're right, we all see things though the prism of our own life experiences and perspectives. I'm sure that had I grown up hearing about how Germans murdered and tried to genocide my people, that such a thing would necessarily have an effect on me. Just as if I were a black man and heard nothing else but what the white man had done to my ancestors, or more to the point, how he was relentlessly holding me down, or all the other narratives and paradigms that we all marinate in, all have an effect on our psyches and view points. This is true.

    There is perhaps a grain of truth in what you say regarding what has become verboten in polite society, and by extension in the media. I hardly think any decent, educated person would use the 'n' word e.g. Its an assault on basic humanity.

    well I've used it, but then I never pretended to be a member of polite society. Hardly. There are some people whom I would refer to as niggers. Not Obama, certainly not. He's not a nigger in my book. An empty suit and a war criminal, sure. A racist and a Marxist, yea, but not a nigger. For me a nigger is a low-life POS, black or white. And who revels in being a low-life POS. The animals who perpetrated the crimes notoriously reviled as the 'Wichita Massacre' are straight up niggers, in my book. Same with the sub-human animals who murdered Channon Christian. Niggers to a T. I don't shrink from using words that describe something in such a succinct, if jarring way. And I also am not trying to write for the NYT. I'm here writing simply for the purpose of conveying what I consider to be an honest and ingenuous search for the truth.

    Its an assault on basic humanity. So is calling an Asian, A Jew, an Arab, A muslim, A White man or a woman by derogatory terms.

    oh Lord Sam, that's soo politically correct. Have some fun for God's sake. Trust me, African Americans can take being called the 'n' word. I've never known a people to use a word with such alacrity as a Negro uses the word 'nigger'. It's like the Irish with the word 'fuck'. Take those words away from them and they'd be mute. I've been called a 'redneck, hillbilly, cracker', even a CIS, and it's like water off a ducks back. I didn't even get 'triggered'. We need to grow a little thicker bark I think today. Everyone's so sensitive.

    led by Revusky

    JR is passionate. When he goes on about lurid description of anatomy, I'm not put off at all. (even if I confess I am occasionally put off by relentless flame wars) I remember how the Priss talked about how Ann Coulter had 'the Jews' dick in her mouth and she was using too much teeth at times, and I had to laugh. Come on Sam, get out of your Etonian linguistic straight jacket. Break the bonds of puritan parameters on your discourse. You'll breath and write freer, and how could that ever be a bad thing? [see Hunter S., Thomson]

    In the case of Ursula H., there is more to her story than meets the eye. She had been held in contempt of court on a few occasions,

    oh my gosh! say it isn't so!!!

    to provoke the legal/judicial system

    gasp!

    They will brook defiance of the law up to a certain extent and no more

    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/6K6ukRrKjKY/hqdefault.jpg

    sorry, but that is the image that came to my mind

    or this one

    http://www.zerofiltered.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Nurse-Ratched-Unsung-Films-2.jpg

    it troubles me Sam, that you would write such a thing and not see the glaring tyrannical undertones of such a statement.

    Who made those laws?]

    umm.. Western governments under Zionist occupation?

    Jews don't control the world's money supply. A person like you ought to rid yourself of this risible notion.

    not Jews per se Sam. Not my colleagues at work or my dentist or neighbors or relatives or friends. No, they sure don't. But there are a few Jews who wield inordinate power over the financial markets of the Western world, Sam. Like the Rothscild agents, known as the "Russian" oligarchs who looted the wealth and reasources of Russia proper. Those Jews Sam, do control money supplies and markets and banks and control Wall Street and the Fed and the Treasury and other influential institutions of the world's money supply. And I suspect that you're more or less aware of all of that Sam. But for this kind of thing to be common knowledge, would not necessarily be "good for the Jews", now would it Sam? Perhaps people might start to wonder why we need to have a Goldman Sachs boy holding the keys to the US Treasury. Or running the unaccountable Federal Reserve Bank. Eh Sam?

    and we might continue on this subject there if you so wish]

    my pleasure, but not at the moment

    Cheers to you as well Sam :)

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  400. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 13, 2016 at 9:55 pm GMT @Jonathan Revusky
    It will be a long time before we will know whether Mossad believed there was an Iraqi connection.
    Oh, well, this is all just total bullshit. But hey, what can one expect from some pathetic old Aussie shit eater who thinks that the proof of the official story is that it's the official story?

    The Iraqi regime was completely transparent to U.S. intelligence. They had an asset right at the top of the government, at the cabinet level, for example, somebody who would have known whether Iraq had WMD or not. And they surely had informers throughout the Iraqi government, it was totally infiltrated. If U.S. Intelligence knew what was going on in Iraq, you can be pretty damned sure that Mossad knew whatever they did.

    The whole idea that Mossad or CIA sincerely believed that Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11, this is complete nonsense, of course. Everybody who knows anything knows that at this point. Of course, you don't know anything, which is why you don't know that.

    This is another characteristic of a shit eater. They just manage, year after year, to remain ignorant of the most basic facts that are available.

    I said "know " not "believe" ..

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
    I said "know " not "believe" ..
    I don't understand your point. I doubt you have one, but if you do, you'll have to flesh it out more. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  401. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 13, 2016 at 10:39 pm GMT @Wizard of Oz I said "know " not "believe".....

    I said "know " not "believe" ..

    I don't understand your point. I doubt you have one, but if you do, you'll have to flesh it out more.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz We may believe that we have worked out what Mossad knew and be able to give the reasons for our inferences but to get to the point of "knowing" something requires more than one's personal certainties or confdence in thd high probabilities. It requires for example that archives have been opened and the most respected scholars say that it is remarkable but they don't seem to have been doctored and this, that and the other now becomes clear in a way it wasn't before. Of course new mysteries or uncertainties can open up. E.g. one can imagine that, if Churchill's 1930s debts were not hitherto known about and it was just disclosed by letters that would make people say they didn't just believe but "knew" he had been insolvent *and* that the South African Jewish mining magnate had fixed up his debts, then some might start speculating about hitherto unsuspected Jewish influence on his attitude to Hitler.

    Still there are serious differences between believing and knowing even if the lines are fuzzy because no empirical fact is 100 per cent certain. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

  402. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 13, 2016 at 11:44 pm GMT • 100 Words @Sam Shama
    I believe that it's clear that Jews (and many others) were systematically persecuted by the Nazis for being Jews, and not necessarily for any crimes they committed.
    [...]
    But that doesn't change the fact that many people perished in those camps, and many of them were innocent Jews, and if the Jews want to call that particular suffering a name to commemorate it, just like what the Japanese went through, then I don't see what's wrong with that per se.
    Rurik,
    As I've said in some previous posts, you have an admirable capacity for gleaning the essence of some important subjects. The aforementioned, more or less my own feelings about the Holocaust, was an event which occurred in the midst of a period that saw tens of millions slaughtered. They were certainly not just Jews. To be frank I never dwelt on the subject too much in my adult life, [even though the real experience of what happened to my kin is very close to me - my granny, whom I spare the ordeal these days of retelling her life events; and she holds no grudge, none at all] i.e., until I stumbled upon the Unz Review last year. This publication seems to be rife with discussions, of which, the ultimate goals are clear; and I needn't explicate the obvious. So again, I am completely unfamiliar with this charge of people exploiting the Holocaust for personal gains. I really don't know any.

    Furthermore there is no blood libel on Germans. Nazis, on the other hand were 'no boy scouts' indeed! We all relate to personal experiences. So in my case, my work brings me in contact with a large number of Europeans and Germans. I can tell you nothing but positive things about my contacts [on a lighter note I've dated German girls and they are a fun loving lot].

    There is perhaps a grain of truth in what you say regarding what has become verboten in polite society, and by extension in the media. I hardly think any decent, educated person would use the 'n' word e.g. Its an assault on basic humanity. So is calling an Asian, A Jew, an Arab, A muslim, A White man or a woman by derogatory terms. Its simply not done in this day an age [more generally I am revolted by some of the verbal obscenity that goes on here, led by Revusky, a man I lament to admit a co-religionist] . More specifically, I am against any laws that stifle free speech and expression. So if certain laws are oppressive, the majoritarian system that created those in the first place, ought to be utilised to render them null and void post partum. [In the case of Ursula H., there is more to her story than meets the eye. She had been held in contempt of court on a few occasions, having used her age and the fragility associated with it, to provoke the legal/judicial system, when the judges finally threw the book at her. They will brook defiance of the law up to a certain extent and no more. Still, I understand it is galling to witness a granny thrown in gaol for nothing more than revisionist activism. Who made those laws?]

    Jews don't control the world's money supply. A person like you ought to rid yourself of this risible notion. [Its a discussion we've had often and let's avoid it this time shall we? btw I commented on Mike Whitney's piece apropos, and we might continue on this subject there if you so wish]

    cheers.

    Still, I understand it is galling to witness a granny thrown in gaol for nothing more than revisionist activism. Who made those laws?

    You cannot possibly be that stupid.

    Maybe you're trying to win the shit eater of the week prize. I mentioned that 2017 Golda Meir nude pictorial calendar and that must have really incentivized you

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  403. Jonathan Revusky says: • Website Show Comment Next New Comment September 13, 2016 at 11:47 pm GMT @Anonymous Yes sure, that's all I need a bunch of crazies calling me up about 9/11 "truth". Take my post for what it is worth to you, I don't care about your "how credible this is" test either. And yeah, there WERE hundreds of people watching it!

    And yeah, there WERE hundreds of people watching it!

    Oh really? Did any of those people have a name?

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  404. KA says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 14, 2016 at 3:10 am GMT • 200 Words @Wizard of Oz Thanks for that link to the Telegraph story. It incidentally offers an explanation for Cheney's urging the CIA to come up with an Iraq connection as shown in the PBS doco "The Secret History of ISIS". After all if Mossad had been ahead of the CIA on the main plot they might well be right about Iraq. It will be a long time before we will know whether Mossad believed there was an Iraqi connection.

    Saddam was just a 'neighborhood bully,' Netanyahu says– 13 years after saying Saddam threatened 'security of our entire world' –
    to AEI's Pletka

    "Mind you, Saddam was horrible, horrible. Brutal killer. So was Qaddafi. There's no question about that. I had my own dealings with each of them. But I do want to say that they were in many ways, neighborhood bullies. That is, they tormented their immediate environment. But they were not wedded to a larger goal. The militant Islamists–either Iran leading the militant Shi'ites with their proxies Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad and Hamas Or the militant Sunnis led by ISIS they have a larger goal in mind Their goal is not the conquest of the Middle East. It's the conquest of the world. It's unbelievable, people don't believe "

    Hold on a second. Thirteen years ago in testimony to Congress, Netanyahu said that Saddam did represent a threat to the entire world. Excerpts (thanks to Jim Lobe at lobelog):

    http://mondoweiss.net/2015/11/neighborhood-netanyahu-threatened/#sthash.VP3FYo80.dpuf

    Mossad is ventriloquizing through the malleable vocal cord of these psychopath
    That Mossad gave the 9pre 911 information to US . Telegraph as stenographer reported it
    They are still doing and Telegraph is still reporting

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  405. KA says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 14, 2016 at 3:37 am GMT • 300 Words @Wizard of Oz Thanks for that link to the Telegraph story. It incidentally offers an explanation for Cheney's urging the CIA to come up with an Iraq connection as shown in the PBS doco "The Secret History of ISIS". After all if Mossad had been ahead of the CIA on the main plot they might well be right about Iraq. It will be a long time before we will know whether Mossad believed there was an Iraqi connection.

    "Netanyahu was alarmed by the signals from both Tehran and Washington in the summer of 1997 indicating interest in reducing tensions between the two countries. That would have represented a real threat to Israel's political and strategic interests, and he was determined to cut it short. Netanyahu's response was to start to begin sending messages to Iran through other governments that Israel would carry out pre-emptive strikes against Iranian missile development sites unless it stopped its ballistic missile programme."

    Gareth Porter. –http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/03/06/israels-long-history-of-gaming-the-iranian-threat/

    Another wide open evident building and spreading of conspiracy involving intelligence,media foreign entities .
    Just as Soviet disappearance gave rise to fervent creation of " Green Peril' from Malayasia to Sudan, the disappearance of tension between Iran and US in 1997 made the Netanyhu ( the whole Israeli regime) go off the deep end . They started conjuring of Shi crescent , worldwide Iranian sleeper cells , Yellow Robbon, " Wiping off the map" , killing American soldiers, sending terrorist to Western Hemisphere and latest addition to that Money – driven garbled claims is the ransom.

    Israel needs an enemy and wants America to fight . American politicians ,some stupid Evangelics, and CNN. FOC drink that Kool Aid first thing in morning . Conspiracy goes unchecked. Unscrutinized ,unquestioned .
    Actually conspiracy factory is so active,it churns out periodically predictably and consisyently one letter head organization after another like Israeli Project,David Project,ECI FDD Campus Watch who have usually one particular lie to promote at a given time before conjuring up another lie

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz Truths which are less than whole truths are usually much more effective than lies and I would expect Mossad manipulators to be aware of that. But it is btw. My purpose in replying is merely to make my view clear that the story of forewarning in The Telegraph story may well have been one that was related to Cheney after 9/11 and which made him inclined to believe what was also said about Iraq. It doesn't mean that he wasn't already predisposed to depose Saddam Hussein but it alters the context somewhat. Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  406. Smiddy says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 14, 2016 at 3:45 am GMT • 100 Words

    "How could it possibly go through the steel? I happen to think that they had not only a plane but they had bombs that exploded almost simultaneously."

    - Donald Trump (on the day of 911)

    https://www.facebook.com/stfnews/videos/1145505108859931/?pnref=story

    Why can't I find a second reference to this audio interview literally anywhere (otherwise I would've used a different source)? Shouldn't this be the audio clip that sinks Trump's Presidential hopes? This should be the biggest news story of the year, but systematic silence is all as usual

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  407. AnonCrimethink2016 says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 14, 2016 at 4:10 am GMT • 200 Words @biz
    you are too quick to conflate 9/11 and the moon landings
    Actually, it was Unz himself who stated a while back that if we admit that one of them is possible, then all are possible, or something more or less to that effect.

    In an case, the 9/11 controlled demolition / missile / flight 93 is in a hangar in Cleveland stuff is just as implausible as faking the moon landings. Too many people and organizations and countries needing to be in on it, etc.

    Conflating the two is indeed absurd. Regarding 9/11, the government's own conspiracy theory, that the twin towers were demolished by office fires started by the two planes (not to mention Building 7, which fell without being struck by a plane later that day) does not hold up under any real scrutiny; any child with a decent high school education in chemistry and physics can see that those buildings did not and could not have collapsed due to the official explanation, but rather, they fell due to a prepared demolition. While it is not, and may never be clear exactly who was behind the event, the fact that key aspects of the government's narrative are demonstrably false, and many others unsupported by independent evidence, should give any thinking person considerable pause for thought about the events of that day, and all that has inexorably followed in U.S. foreign policy to this very day. It is a technique of distraction frequently used by supporters of the official conspiracy theory to raise all kinds of broad questions about "How could such a vast conspiracy ever be kept?" etc. (Well, look at the Manhattan Project for starters ) rather than engaging in the particulars of physical evidence and reliable eye witness accounts that attest to the utter nonsense of the lie we've been sold lo these many years.

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  408. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 14, 2016 at 12:53 pm GMT • 100 Words @KA "Netanyahu was alarmed by the signals from both Tehran and Washington in the summer of 1997 indicating interest in reducing tensions between the two countries. That would have represented a real threat to Israel's political and strategic interests, and he was determined to cut it short. Netanyahu's response was to start to begin sending messages to Iran through other governments that Israel would carry out pre-emptive strikes against Iranian missile development sites unless it stopped its ballistic missile programme."

    Gareth Porter. --http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/03/06/israels-long-history-of-gaming-the-iranian-threat/

    Another wide open evident building and spreading of conspiracy involving intelligence,media foreign entities .
    Just as Soviet disappearance gave rise to fervent creation of " Green Peril' from Malayasia to Sudan, the disappearance of tension between Iran and US in 1997 made the Netanyhu ( the whole Israeli regime) go off the deep end . They started conjuring of Shi crescent , worldwide Iranian sleeper cells , Yellow Robbon, " Wiping off the map" , killing American soldiers, sending terrorist to Western Hemisphere and latest addition to that Money - driven garbled claims is the ransom.

    Israel needs an enemy and wants America to fight . American politicians ,some stupid Evangelics, and CNN. FOC drink that Kool Aid first thing in morning . Conspiracy goes unchecked. Unscrutinized ,unquestioned .
    Actually conspiracy factory is so active,it churns out periodically predictably and consisyently one letter head organization after another like Israeli Project,David Project,ECI FDD Campus Watch who have usually one particular lie to promote at a given time before conjuring up another lie

    Truths which are less than whole truths are usually much more effective than lies and I would expect Mossad manipulators to be aware of that. But it is btw. My purpose in replying is merely to make my view clear that the story of forewarning in The Telegraph story may well have been one that was related to Cheney after 9/11 and which made him inclined to believe what was also said about Iraq. It doesn't mean that he wasn't already predisposed to depose Saddam Hussein but it alters the context somewhat.

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  409. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 16, 2016 at 12:13 am GMT • 100 Words @Ron Unz For those without convenient access to a copy of the deHaven-Smith book, I've discovered there are some lengthy extracts available on the web:

    https://off-guardian.org/2016/09/04/are-you-a-mind-controlled-cia-stooge/

    International Pravda. My phone has just received from The Economist an article or editorial variously headed "Pepe and the Stormtroopers" and "The Normalisation of the Alt-Right". What is remarkable is the near unanimity of the hundreds of Comments in condemning TE for its condescending anti-Trump rant, even by those who won't vote for him.

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  410. Anonymous says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 20, 2016 at 3:13 am GMT

    "American media is extraordinarily hostile to Russia, certainly much more so than it ever was toward the Communist Soviet Union during the 1970s and 1980s. " LOL were you even alive then!

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  411. Wizard of Oz says: Show Comment Next New Comment September 20, 2016 at 10:23 am GMT • 200 Words @Jonathan Revusky
    I said "know " not "believe" ..
    I don't understand your point. I doubt you have one, but if you do, you'll have to flesh it out more.

    We may believe that we have worked out what Mossad knew and be able to give the reasons for our inferences but to get to the point of "knowing" something requires more than one's personal certainties or confdence in thd high probabilities. It requires for example that archives have been opened and the most respected scholars say that it is remarkable but they don't seem to have been doctored and this, that and the other now becomes clear in a way it wasn't before. Of course new mysteries or uncertainties can open up. E.g. one can imagine that, if Churchill's 1930s debts were not hitherto known about and it was just disclosed by letters that would make people say they didn't just believe but "knew" he had been insolvent *and* that the South African Jewish mining magnate had fixed up his debts, then some might start speculating about hitherto unsuspected Jewish influence on his attitude to Hitler.

    Still there are serious differences between believing and knowing even if the lines are fuzzy because no empirical fact is 100 per cent certain.

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  412. Peripatetic commenter says: Show Comment Next New Comment November 15, 2016 at 10:54 pm GMT @Yngvar
    So as a means of damage control, the CIA distributed a secret memo to all its field offices requesting that they enlist their media assets in efforts to ridicule and attack such critics as irrational supporters of "conspiracy theories."
    And what do you know, the term "conspiracy theories" was non-existent in books before JFK's assassination but took off right after, according to Google's Ngram Viewer: https://is.gd/GYioQZ

    I see that someone has updated a document about that:

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Conspiracy_theory#Pejorative_meaning


[Nov 25, 2016] Is Obama presiding over a national security state gone rogue? by

National security state gone rogue is fascism. Frankly, I don't see evidence of huge abuse of US liberties. But I do see our foreign policy distorted by a counter-terror obsession
Notable quotes:
"... the government's interpretation of that law ..."
"... "One reports a crime; and one commits a crime." ..."
"... but does not include differences of opinion concerning public policy matters ..."
Jun 21, 2013 | The Guardian

Jump to comments (118)

Two weeks ago, the Guardian began publishing a series of eye-opening revelations about the National Security Agency and its surveillance efforts both in the United States and overseas. These stories raised long-moribund and often-ignored questions about the pervasiveness of government surveillance and the extent to which privacy rights are being violated by this secret and seemingly unaccountable security apparatus.

However, over the past two weeks, we've begun to get a clearer understanding of the story and the implications of what has been published – informed in part by a new-found (if forced upon them) transparency from the intelligence community. So here's one columnist's effort to sort the wheat from the chaff and offer a few answers to the big questions that have been raised.

These revelations are a big deal, right?

To fully answer this question, it's important to clarify the revelations that have sparked such controversy. The Guardian (along with the Washington Post) has broken a number of stories, each of which tells us very different things about what is happening inside the US government around matters of surveillance and cyber operations. Some are relatively mundane, others more controversial.

The story that has shaped press coverage and received the most attention was the first one – namely, the publication of a judicial order from the Fisa court to Verizon that indicated the US is "hoovering" up millions of phone records (so-called "metadata") into a giant NSA database. When it broke, the story was quickly portrayed as a frightening tale of government overreach and violation of privacy rights. After all, such metadata – though it contains no actual content – can be used rather easily as a stepping-stone to more intrusive forms of surveillance.

But what is the true extent of the story here: is this picture of government Big Brotherism correct or is this massive government surveillance actually quite benign?

First of all, such a collection of data is not, in and of itself, illegal. The Obama administration was clearly acting within the constraints of federal law and received judicial approval for this broad request for data. That doesn't necessarily mean that the law is good or that the government's interpretation of that law is not too broad, but unlike the Bush "warrantless wiretapping" stories of several years ago, the US government is here acting within the law.

The real question that should concern us is one raised by the TV writer David Simon in a widely cited blogpost looking at the issues raised by the Guardian's reporting, namely:

"Is government accessing the data for the legitimate public safety needs of the society, or are they accessing it in ways that abuse individual liberties and violate personal privacy – and in a manner that is unsupervised."

We know, for example, that the NSA is required to abide by laws that prevent the international targeting of American citizens (you can read more about that here). So, while metadata about phone calls made can be used to discover information about the individuals making the calls, there are "minimization" rules, procedures and laws that guide the use of such data and prevent possible abuse and misuse of protected data.

The minimization procedures used by the NSA are controlled by secret Fisa courts. In fact, last year, the Fisa court ruled that these procedures didn't pass constitutional muster and had to be rewritten.

Sure, the potential for abuse exists – but so, too, does the potential for the lawful use of metadata in a way that protects the privacy of individual Americans – and also assists the US government in pursuit of potential terrorist suspects. Of course, without information on the specific procedures used by the NSA to minimize the collection of protected data, it is impossible to know that no laws are being broken or no abuse is occurring.

In that sense, we have to take the government's word for it. And that is especially problematic when you consider the Fisa court decisions authorizing this snooping are secret and the congressional intelligence committees tasked with conducting oversight tend to be toothless.

But assumptions of bad faith and violations of privacy by the US government are just that assumptions. When President Obama says that the NSA is not violating privacy rights because it would be against the law, we can't simply disregard such statements as self-serving. Moreover, when one considers the privacy violations that Americans willingly submit to at airports, what personal data they give to the government in their tax returns, and what is regularly posted voluntarily on Facebook, sent via email and searched for online, highly-regulated data-mining by the NSA seems relatively tame.

Edward Snowden: is he a hero or a traitor?

One of the key questions that have emerged over this story is the motivation of the leaker in question, Edward Snowden. In his initial public interview, with Glenn Greenwald on 9 June, Snowden explained his actions, in part, thus:

"I'm willing to sacrifice because I can't in good conscience allow the US government to destroy privacy, internet freedom and basic liberties for people around the world with this massive surveillance machine they're secretly building."

Now, while one can argue that Snowden's actions do not involve personal sacrifice, whether they are heroic is a much higher bar to cross. First of all, it's far from clear that the US government is destroying privacy, internet freedom and basic liberties for people around the world. Snowden may sincere about being "valiant for truth", but he wouldn't be the first person to believe himself such and yet be wrong.

Second, one can make the case that there is a public interest in knowing that the US is collecting reams of phone records, but where is the public interest – and indeed, to Snowden's own justification, the violation of privacy – in leaking a presidential directive on cyber operations or leaking that the US is spying on the Russian president?

The latter is both not a crime it's actually what the NSA was established to do! In his recent online chat hosted by the Guardian, Snowden suggested that the US should not be spying on any country with whom it's not formally at war. That is, at best, a dubious assertion, and one that is at odds with years of spycraft.

On the presidential directive on cyber operations, the damning evidence that Snowden revealed was that President Obama has asked his advisers to create a list of potential targets for cyber operations – but such planning efforts are rather routine contingency operations. For example, if the US military drew up war plans in case conflict ever occurred between the US and North Korea – and that included offensive operations – would that be considered untoward or perhaps illegitimate military planning?

This does not mean, however, that Snowden is a traitor. Leaking classified data is a serious offense, but treason is something else altogether.

The problem for Snowden is that he has now also leaked classified information about ongoing US intelligence-gathering efforts to foreign governments, including China and Russia. That may be crossing a line, which means that the jury is still out on what label we should use to describe Snowden.

Shouldn't Snowden be protected as a whistleblower?

This question of leakers v whistleblowers has frequently been conflated in the public reporting about the NSA leak (and many others). But this is a crucial error. As Tara Lee, a lawyer at the law firm DLA Piper, with expertise in defense industry and national security litigation said to me there is an important distinction between leakers and whistleblowers, "One reports a crime; and one commits a crime."

Traditionally (and often technically), whistleblowing refers to specific actions that are taken to bring to attention illegal behavior, fraud, waste, abuse etc. Moreover, the US government provides federal employees and contractors with the protection to blow the whistle on wrongdoing. In the case of Snowden, he could have gone to the inspector general at the Department of Justice or relevant congressional committees.

From all accounts, it appears that he did not go down this path. Of course, since the material he was releasing was approved by the Fisa court and had the sign-off of the intelligence committee, he had good reason to believe that he would have not received the most receptive hearing for his complaints.

Nevertheless, that does not give him carte blanche to leak to the press – and certainly doesn't give him carte blanche to leak information on activities that he personally finds objectionable but are clearly legal. Indeed, according to the Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act (ICWPA), whistleblowers can make complaints over matter of what the law calls "urgent concern", which includes "a serious or flagrant problem, abuse, violation of law or executive order, or deficiency relating to the funding, administration, or operations of an intelligence activity involving classified information, but does not include differences of opinion concerning public policy matters [my italics]."

In other words, simply believing that a law or government action is wrong does not give one the right to leak information; and in the eyes of the law, it is not considered whistleblowing. Even if one accepts the view that the leaked Verizon order fell within the bounds of being in the "public interest", it's a harder case to make for the presidential directive on cyber operations or the eavesdropping on foreign leaders.

The same problem is evident in the incorrect description of Bradley Manning as a whistleblower. When you leak hundreds of thousands of documents – not all of which you reviewed and most of which contain the mundane and not illegal diplomatic behavior of the US government – you're leaking. Both Manning and now Snowden have taken it upon themselves to decide what should be in the public domain; quite simply, they don't have the right to do that. If every government employee decided actions that offended their sense of morality should be leaked, the government would never be able to keep any secrets at all and, frankly, would be unable to operate effectively.

So, like Manning, Snowden is almost certainly not a whistleblower, but rather a leaker. And that would mean that he, like Manning, is liable to prosecution for leaking classified material.

Are Democrats hypocrites over the NSA's activities?

A couple of days ago, my Guardian colleague, Glenn Greenwald made the following assertion:

"The most vehement defenders of NSA surveillance have been, by far, Democratic (especially Obama-loyal) pundits. One of the most significant aspects of the Obama legacy has been the transformation of Democrats from pretend-opponents of the Bush "war on terror" and national security state into their biggest proponents."

This is regular line of argument from Glenn, but it's one that, for a variety of reasons, I believe is not fair. (I don't say this because I'm an Obama partisan – though I may be called one for writing this.)

First, the lion's share of criticism of these recent revelations has come, overwhelmingly, from Democrats and, indeed, from many of the same people, including Greenwald, who were up in arms when the so-called warrantless wiretapping program was revealed in 2006. The reality is that outside a minority of activists, it's not clear that many Americans – Democrats or Republicans get all that excited about these types of stories. (Not that this is necessarily a good thing.)

Second, opposition to the Bush program was two-fold: first, it was illegal and was conducted with no judicial or congressional oversight; second, Bush's surveillance policies did not occur in a vacuum – they were part of a pattern of law-breaking, disastrous policy decisions and Manichean rhetoric over the "war on terror". So, if you opposed the manner in which Bush waged war on the "axis of evil", it's not surprising that you would oppose its specific elements. In the same way, if you now support how President Obama conducts counter-terrorism efforts, it's not surprising that you'd be more inclined to view specific anti-terror policies as more benign.

Critics will, of course, argue – and rightly so – that we are a country of laws first. In which case it shouldn't matter who is the president, but rather what the laws are that govern his or her conduct. Back in the world of political reality, though, that's not how most Americans think of their government. Their perceptions are defined in large measure by how the current president conducts himself, so there is nothing at all surprising about Republicans having greater confidence in a Republican president and Democrats having greater confidence in a Democratic one, when asked about specific government programs.

Beyond that, simply having greater confidence in President Obama than President Bush to wield the awesome powers granted the commander-in-chief to conduct foreign policy is not partisanship. It's common sense.

George Bush was, undoubtedly, one of the two or three worst foreign policy presidents in American history (and arguably, our worst president, period). He and Dick Cheney habitually broke the law, including but not limited to the abuse of NSA surveillance. President Obama is far from perfect: he made the terrible decision to surge in Afghanistan, and he's fought two wars of dubious legality in Libya and Pakistan, but he's very far from the sheer awfulness of the Bush/Cheney years.

Unless you believe the US should have no NSA, and conduct no intelligence-gathering in the fight against terrorism, you have to choose a president to manage that agency. And there is nothing hypocritical or partisan about believing that one president is better than another to handle those responsibilities.

Has NSA surveillance prevented terrorist attacks, as claimed?

In congressional testimony this week, officials from the Department of Justice and the NSA argued that surveillance efforts stopped "potential terrorist events over 50 times since 9/11". Having spent far too many years listening to public officials describe terrifying terror plots that fell apart under greater scrutiny, this assertion sets off for me a set of red flags (even though it may be true).

I have no doubt that NSA surveillance has contributed to national security investigations, but whether it's as extensive or as vital as the claims of government officials is more doubtful. To be honest, I'm not sure it matters. Part of the reason the US government conducts NSA surveillance in the first place is not necessarily to stop every potential attack (though that would be nice), but to deter potential terrorists from acting in the first place.

Critics of the program like to argue that "of course, terrorists know their phones are being tapped and emails are being read", but that's kind of the point. If they know this, it forces them to choose more inefficient means of communicating, and perhaps to put aside potential attacks for fear of being uncovered.

We also know that not every terrorist has the skills of a Jason Bourne. In fact, many appear to be not terribly bright, which means that even if they know about the NSA's enormous dragnet, it doesn't mean they won't occasionally screw up and get caught.

Yet, this gets to a larger issue that is raised by the NSA revelations.

When is enough counter-terrorism enough?

Over the past 12 years, the US has developed what can best be described as a dysfunctional relationship with terrorism. We've become obsessed with it and with a zero-tolerance approach to stopping it. While the former is obviously an important goal, it has led the US to take steps that not only undermine our values (such as torture), but also make us weaker (the invasion of Iraq, the surge in Afghanistan, etc).

To be sure, this is not true of every anti-terror program of the past dozen years. For example, the US does a better job of sharing intelligence among government agencies, and of screening those who are entering the country. And military efforts in the early days of the "war on terror" clearly did enormous damage to al-Qaida's capabilities.

In general, though, when one considers the relatively low risk of terrorist attacks – and the formidable defenses of the United States – the US response to terrorism has been one of hysterical over-reaction. Indeed, the balance we so often hear about when it comes to protecting privacy while also ensuring security is only one part of the equation. The other is how do we balance the need to stop terrorists (who certainly aspire to attack the United States) and the need to prevent anti-terrorism from driving our foreign policy to a disproportionate degree. While the NSA revelations might not be proof that we've gone too far in one direction, there's not doubt that, for much of the past 12 years, terrorism has distorted and marred our foreign policy.

Last month, President Obama gave a seminal speech at the National Defense University, in which he essentially declared the "war on terror" over. With troops coming home from Afghanistan, and drone strikes on the decline, that certainly seems to be the case. But as the national freakout over the Boston Marathon bombing – and the extraordinary over-reaction of a city-wide lockdown for one wounded terrorist on the loose – remind us, we still have a ways to go.

Moreover, since no politician wants to find him- or herself in a situation after a terrorist attack when the criticism "why didn't you do more?" can be aired, that political imperative of zero tolerance will drive our counterterrorism policies. At some point, that needs to end.

In fact, nine years ago, our current secretary of state, John Kerry, made this exact point; it's worth reviewing his words:

"We have to get back to the place we were, where terrorists are not the focus of our lives, but they're a nuisance I know we're never going to end prostitution. We're never going to end illegal gambling. But we're going to reduce it, organized crime, to a level where it isn't on the rise. It isn't threatening people's lives every day, and fundamentally, it's something that you continue to fight, but it's not threatening the fabric of your life.''

What the NSA revelations should spark is not just a debate on surveillance, but on the way we think about terrorism and the steps that we should be willing to take both to stop it and ensure that it does not control us. We're not there yet.

007Prometheus

No GCHQ - MI5 - MI6 - NSA - CIA - FBI etc........... ad nausem!

How many Billions / Trillions are spent on these services? If 11/9 and 7/7 were homegrown attacks, then i think, they will take us all down with them.

NOTaREALmerican

@007Prometheus

Re: How many Billions / Trillions are spent on these services?

The wonderful thing about living in a "Keynesian" perpetually increasing debt paradise is you NEVER have to say you can't afford anything. (Well, unless you want to say it, but if you do it's just political bullshit).

So, to answer your question... A "Keynesian" never asks how much, just how much do you want.

bloopie2

"Frankly, I don't see evidence of huge abuse of US liberties"

Just wait until they come for you.

bloopie2

"When one considers the privacy violations that Americans willingly submit to at airports, what personal data they give to the government in their tax returns, and what is regularly posted voluntarily on Facebook, sent via email and searched for online, highly-regulated data-mining by the NSA seems relatively tame."

Dear Sir: Please post your email addresses, bank accounts, and passwords. We'd like to look at everything.

Got a problem with that?

Tonieja

"When one considers the privacy violations that Americans willingly submit to at airports, what personal data they give to the government in their tax returns, and what is regularly posted voluntarily on Facebook, sent via email and searched for online [...]"

Wow! I don't really care about my personal email. I do care about all political activists, journalists, lawyers etc. That a journalist would support Stasi style surveillance state is astonishing.

gisbournelove

I wish I had the time to go through this article and demolish it sentence by sentence as it so richly deserves, but at the moment I don't. Instead, might I suggest to the author that he go to the guardian archive, read every single story about this in chronological order and then read every damn link posted in the comment threads on the three most recent stories.

Most especially the links in the comment threads. If after that, he cannot see why we "civil libertarian freaks" are not just outraged, but frightened, he frankly lacks both historical knowledge and any ability to analyze the facts that are staring him in the face. I can't believe I am going to have to say this again but here goes: YOU do not get to give away my contitutional rights, Mr. Cohen.

I don't give a shit how much you trust Obama compared to dubya. The Bill of Rights states in clear, unambiguous language what the Federal government may NOT do do its citizens no matter WHO is president.

goodkurtz

Michael Cohen
Frankly, I don't see evidence of huge abuse of US liberties.

Well of course you wont see them.
But the abuses are very probably already happening on a one to one basis in the same shadows in which the intelligence was first gathered.

The NSA may not be allowed to return to the shadows - FT.com by John Schindler

It is difficult to see how the Obama administration, which declared an end to its predecessor’s “war on terror”, can indefinitely justify the invasive intelligence techniques that the Bush administration began and which the current White House has, if anything, expanded.

... ... ...

So the US intelligence community now confronts a degree of scrutiny it has not faced in four decades. Beginning with the Patriot Act after the 9/11 attacks, US defence and security agencies have been accustomed to an understanding public, fearful of more and worse terrorism, willing to give the secret government a wide berth in the name of protecting the citizenry. This may no longer be the case.

One of the issues certain to now be questioned is how the Pentagon has spent countless billions of dollars in recent years on outsourcing contractors such as Booz Allen Hamilton, a company that will likely be the poster child for misconduct in intelligence as Halliburton was in contracting over the Iraq war.

The public is right to wonder about both the ethics and efficiency of ostensibly private companies that are wholly dependent on defence contracts while being run by retired top officials of the agencies that provide the contracts.

The writer is a professor at the US Naval War College and a former National Security Agency analyst. Any opinions expressed are his own

The internet is at risk of transforming from an open platform to myriad national networks

Revelations about US surveillance of the global internet – and the part played by some of the biggest American internet companies in facilitating it – have stirred angst around the world.

Far from being seen as the guardian of a free and open online medium, the US has been painted as an oppressor, cynically using its privileged position to spy on foreign nationals. The result, warn analysts, could well be an acceleration of a process that has been under way for some time as other countries ringfence their networks to protect their citizens’ data and limit the flow of information.

“It is difficult to imagine the internet not becoming more compartmentalised and Balkanised,” says Rebecca MacKinnon, an expert on online censorship. “Ten years from now, we will look back on the free and open internet” with nostalgia, she adds.

At the most obvious level, the secret data-collection efforts being conducted by the US National Security Agency threaten to give would-be censors of the internet in authoritarian countries rhetorical cover as they put their own stamp on their local networks.

But the distrust of the US that the disclosures are generating in the democratic world, including in Europe, are also likely to have an impact. From the operation of a nation’s telecoms infrastructure to the regulation of the emerging cloud computing industry, changes in the architecture of networks as countries seek more control look set to cause a sea change in the broader internet.

America Church versus state - FT.com

Fears about privacy intrusions are forging new and unpredictable coalitions between politicians on the left, such as Mark Udall, a Democratic senator from Colorado, and the libertarian right, such as Rand Paul, the Republican senator from Kentucky. The risk for President Barack Obama is that if he does not take this opportunity to try to build confidence in what the intelligence services are doing, he could face a second term of further leaks and growing recriminations that will overwhelm his legacy. As the president put it in a May speech about terrorism: “We must define the nature and scope of this struggle or else it will define us.”

Mr Snowden has revealed details about two top-secret surveillance programmes that he hopes will start to shift the debate. First, a leaked court order showed that the NSA has been collecting the phone records of millions of Americans who are business customers of Verizon. Second, documents claimed the NSA operates a programme that allows it to siphon off large volumes of data, including emails and photos, from the servers of nine big technology companies.

The government has admitted the first disclosure but says that the nature of the programme is misunderstood. The database stores only numbers, not names, officials say. Rather than listening to calls, the intelligence services use the “metadata” from the call records to look for a terror suspects’ connections.

Mike Rogers, chairman of the House intelligence committee, said that it was too expensive for the telephone companies to keep all the details of call records so they were stored at the NSA. To access any specific part of the database, the intelligence services needed a warrant based on a genuine national security threat, he said.

The second charge is less clear. Reports indicated that the NSA was using a computer program called Prism to swallow large chunks of data directly from Google, Yahoo and other companies in a manner that goes well beyond anything covered by federal court warrants. In a Guardian interview, Mr Snowden described an almost casual illegality at the NSA. “Sitting at my desk, I had the authorities to wiretap anyone, from you or your accountant, to a federal judge or even the president,” he said.

... ... ...

Some experts say that the dispute over the legality of Prism obscures the reality that court orders permit the NSA to monitor far more than had been understood, including near real-time access to email traffic. A former intelligence official said that a court order under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (Fisa) could allow monitoring for a period of several months. “This is much more than the companies periodically handing over emails,” he said.

... ... ...

Many Americans would also be surprised to learn that the government is pre-emptively collecting their phone records in secret, especially as the data collection almost certainly does not end there. A Department of Justice official admitted in 2011 that the law used to justify the Verizon warrant had also been used to obtain drivers license, car rental, hotel and credit card records.

The NSA now has more tools to make sense of the growing volume of information it collects. It is building a $2bn, 1m square foot facility in the Utah desert to store the data.

Suav | June 12 11:22pm

That the government tend to gather all information amenable to processing is hardly a news. We wouldn't have much in our museums and archives otherwise. First significant example from what we tend to call modern era would probably be Joseph Fouché.

Competition between the state and individual goes on and it probably can be defined in intersecting planes: How much government knows about us as “populus”; governed people and how much we know about ourselves as a society, a nation, a “demos” (bizarre how the tension between Roman – statist approach and Greek – democratic approach persists through millennia). How much government, through its agencies, knows about us as individuals and how much each of us knows about oneself. How big change of our very being can government bring about using information at their disposal and how big influence every separate person enjoys over own self. I want to argue that in all three we are witnessing a dramatic swing of balance to the situation not seen since deep Middle Ages. One can dwell on this topic for a while, but even before there is deeper analysis and thorough process of investigation takes place (which I sincerely hope for) there is one thing that some of us do and all of us, without exception, should. (Although I count myself guilty of not doing enough in this matter)

We have to know “what they know”. Everyone has to take an assumption that all that he says, does and is thinking is registered somewhere. One can call it a practical conservation of information rule. We should store all our phone (?) conversations, all our e-mails, we should apply GPS stamps to our photographs. We should track ourselves. It is the simplest, the cheapest and the most effective way to wrestle back control over oneself. (Let me do something that depends on me as there is still enough things going on that don't seem to depend on anybody) There is a huge market for mobile phone applications, hence, there is an army of talented, creative and efficient programmers out there. We can easily create demand for programmes that would analyse our lives for us. I, personally, know some Yuppies who do exactly that. Benefits are enormous. We can easily organise our lives better. We can be forewarned about which influences are we malleable to and to which we respond in a stubborn, contrariwise way. We can determine our “soft spots”, our vulnerabilities and try to mend them if we can. We can think of ways of insulating ourselves from some and exposing more to others. Even if the efforts seem mostly vain, we still would be better off knowing from which side the nudge may come and when it is more likely to be a punch.

There is more to be done on a cruder level of graining. It is an old obsession of all security forces to typify the subjects. With both perceptive and executive power so much enhanced we might suppose a huge amount of research being done there. Recently announced UK's “new class structure” closed up by “Precariat” seems to be a tip of an iceberg of underlying structuring. We should be able to place ourselves on this map (oriented graph?) of society with no less accuracy. This would allow us to search more easily for people whom we have enough in common with to form friendships and alliances more easily. We are entitled to other types of knowledge too. We should know relations between formal membership (work, interests, political affiliations) and other types of social classifications. It is of paramount importance to every one of us to see clearly where we stand in society and what is the tension between our own image and that which society through different levels of aggregation projects upon us (Lobachevsky ratio).

Our freedom was always formed in tension between social and individual. Our closest circle, spouse, children, parents, friends, co-workers define most of it enhancing in some ways and limiting in others. We are being constantly redefined by belonging to wider groups, although to some, who seem to, throughout their all life cycle, flow in one ensemble, it is hardly noticeable. National and super national structures play a much greater role in this process now but it does not make us totally helpless. We should take enough effort not to loose control over our own destiny.

P.S. This short sketch draws on some assumptions. These are – most of the people who engage in those procedures profess limited practical determinism (we know more which gives us the right to decide about more)

Since around 70' we witness diminishing returns in science as well as an effect of shorter horizon. Human understanding of nature does not move forward as fast as through the last 500 years. More importantly there are no new breakthrough on the horizon. It is akin to ancient Egypt of Pharaoh and Middle Ages Europe. This is the most important factor determining strategy of “running away” as less efficient than “kicking downhill”.
Understandably I declare myself as a believer in indeterminism (in the least on practical level, but rather on philosophical one) and would like to oppose any sort of remnant beliefs in predestination.

Gary Struthers | June 12 7:55pm
The law is specific about types of communication that are private: 1st class mail, phone calls from a land line, lawyer/client etc. Prince Charles taught us mobile calls are fair game because they use public airwaves. Internet traffic over the public network isn't private either for the same reason.

What's shocking to me is that people are surprised the government is taking advantage of all the information people give away.

rewiredhogdog | June 12 3:01pm

Who voted for the spies in the NSA and the CIA as our duly elected representatives and our trusted guardians to interpret the civil liberties guaranteed by the Constitution?

Growing up in the Sixties, I am experiencing historical deja vu. But the stakes are much higher this time around for America. As William Burroughs, the beat writer, observed way back then, in a functioning police state the citizens will never actually see the police spying on them. With Prism and Boundless Informant we are there. Daniel Ellsberg, who leaked of the Pentagon Papers. wrote a guest column in The Guardian. It's entitled "The United Stasi of America." stasi referring to the state police in communist East Germany that spied on its citizens before the fall of the Berlin Wall.

It's uncanny how much back then resembles right now., and I mean more than just Edward Snowden filling in for Daniel Ellsberg. During the administrations of LBJ and Richard Nixon, the CIA had its Phoenix Program in the Vietnam War. It targeted for assassination VC cadres and guerrillas in South Vietnam. Presidents Bush and Obama have their drone program against suspected terrorists.. It's just an updated, high-tech version of the Phoenix program in the age of the Internet. Richard Nixon had his secret bombing in Cambodia. President Obama has violated the national sovereignty of many more nations with his drone program than President Nixon ever did while in office. LBJ and Nixon sicced the FBI and the CIA on the anti-war protesters and journalists: Obama goes after AP reporters and James Rosen, who was a designated as a "co-conspirator" in a DOJ indictment.

Now David Brooks and Thomas Friedman have written columns about Edward Snowden attacking his character and patriotism. The New York Times that fought the government in court to publish the Pentagon Papers leaked by Daniel Ellsberg. If this isn't deja vu, I don't know what is. We are way beyond just introducing legislation to redress grievances. We passed that point long ago in the long war of terror. Although I served as a medical corpsman in Vietnam, I actually feel like an old and cynical German veteran from the First World War living in the Weimar Republic.

But the revolution will NOT be televised this time around as it was during the Vietnam War era. It will be a silent coup d'etat brought to you without commercial interruptions by the national security state and the military/industrial complex. Then they can get back to fighting perpetual wars for perpetual peace.

www.icaact.org

Kel Murdock | June 12 1:26am
We must also consider that included in that wide sweep of data collection and algorithmic search for connections are the records of all of our elected representatives. Properly utilized that could make for very pliant public officials in the hands of the security services.
now what | June 11 9:50pm
you can't regulate fear
Michael McPhillips | June 11 9:19pm
We should also know whether the intelligence agencies use neuro-feedback technologies on targeted individuals, suspects, or prisoners, without their knowledge or permission. If administration officials have clearance to target those against war, climate change, gay marriage/rights, or other political or ideological issues that pose no threat to anyone but are directed against policies favored by government that would prefer no opposition because of commitments already given and though harmful to the country or its people, is unwilling to change them, freedom of speech would be being restricted punitively and unlawfully.

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