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Downing of IL-20 reconnaissance plane

News War is racket Recommended Links Downing of IL-20 reconnaissance plane Israeli support of headchoppers and air raid on Syria military infrastructure  
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"On September 17, at about 11 p.m. Moscow time [20:00 GMT], the communication with the crew of the Russian Il-20 aircraft was lost when it was over the Mediterranean Sea, some 35 kilometers from the Syrian coast, on its way back to Hmeimim airbase," the report said. AFP 2018 / MOHAMED AL-BAKOUR

Putin: Israel Didn't Down Il-20, Chain of Tragic Circumstances Led to Incident. Sputnik International, Sep 18. 2018

It is not to Russia’s advantage to sink French frigates or expose the full capabilities of its air defense systems to shoot down a handful of Israeli warplanes to satisfy public desires for immediate revenge or to protect nonexistent notions of Russian invincibility.

Instead, it is to Russia’s advantage to simply win the proxy war in Syria. Just as in 2015 when calls for immediate revenge were made regarding a Turkish-downed Russian warplane, Syria, Russia, and Iran will continue moving forward – slowly and methodically – to secure Syrian territory from foreign proxies seeking to divide and destroy the country, springboard into Iran, and eventually work their way into southern Russia.

Tony Cartalucci, journal-neo.org Sep 18. 2018

Everybody agrees that on Monday evening, four Israeli F-16s carried out a missile-strike against Syrian targets in Latakia; and that in the course of this, a Russian electronic reconnaissance plane – an IL-20 – was shot down over the Mediterranean. Western media reporting basically stop there, except to occasionally add that it seems likely that Syrian air-defenses were directly responsible for the shooting down of the IL-20. A further piece of evidence is that the Israelis only sought to notify the Russians of their operation approximately one minute before the commencement of hostilities. The implication is that the lack of notice did not  allowed the Russians to get their plane out of the line of fire (nevertheless action of Russian command center raises several question as well -- why they did not direct the plane toward the sea). It is unclear at this stage just what the French frigate also in the area was firing at; or whether it was operating in co-ordination with the IDF.

The consensus in Russian press almost no mentioned in Western press is that Israelis deliberately took advantage of the IL-20’s radar profile to provide cover for their incoming F-16s.  In any case, the Syrians defended their airspace against intruders as  one would expect from a sovereign state– and, for that matter, what they are completely entitled to do.

No question about legitimacy of Israeli raid was ever raised in Western neoliberal press.

While The Israeli ‘bad-faith’ abrogation of the proper protocols for communication between themselves and the Russian Military is the main factor there were three additional factors that contributed to this tragedy. Israeli actions look even more hostile due to the fact  that the Russian crew were in Syria to assist in the eradication of dangerous extremists – while the Israelis who ultimately spelled their doom were over Syrian airspace in order to *help* those self-same extremists through strikes against their opponents.  There were several factors contributing to the tragedy:

IL-20 is a special purpose place without any armament The Aviationist » Il-20 shot down

The Il-20 is an ELINT (Electronic Intelligence) platform: it is equipped with a wide array of antennas, IR (Infrared) and Optical sensors, a SLAR (Side-Looking Airborne Radar) and satellite communication equipment for real-time data sharing, the aircraft is Russian Air Force’s premiere spyplane.

Russian Il-20s regularly perform long-range reconnaissance missions in the Baltic region, flying in international airspace with its transponder turned off; a standard practice for almost all ISR (Intelligence Surveillance Reconnaissance) aircraft. However, at least twice in the last couple of years Russian Coot spyplanes flying close to civilian airports or congested airways were involved in “air proximity” incidents: in March 2014, a SAS Boeing 737 with 132 people almost collided with an Il-20 Coot, about 50 miles to the southwest of Malmö, Sweden; in December 2014, a Canadair CRJ-200 from Cimber Airlines was involved in a near collision with an Il-20 halfway between Ystad, Sweden and Sassnitz, Germany.

In Syria, the aircraft will probably perform intelligence gathering missions, eavesdropping into IS militants communications, detecting their systems’ emissions to build an Electronic Order of Battle of ISIS in the region,  and pinpointing their positions. And, as happened in northern Europe, unless their missions are coordinated, there is the risk of a close encounter with a US-led coalition aircraft involved in Operation Inherent Resolve.

While Putin stated "Israel Didn't Down Il-20, Chain of Tragic Circumstances Led to Incident",  the attack is reminiscent of the 2015 Turkish downing of a Russian warplane – after which similar calls for retaliation were made, coupled with similar condemnations of Russia as “weak.”

But since 2015, Russia’s patient and methodical approach to aiding Syria in its proxy war with the US-NATO-GCC and Israel has nonetheless paid off huge dividends ( https://journal-neo.org/2018/09/18/syrian-russian-victory-only-way-to-avenge-israeli-french-strikes/)

The fact that IL-20 system are integrated with the command center excludes possibility that the crew and command center did not notice Israeli "Trojan horse" maneuver. This leaves me to doubt the official line that it was an accidental shoot down by the Syrians. It doesn’t ‘smell right’, but I also doubt we will ever know if it wasn’t the Syrians. We actually know very little about the tragic accident

The plane with 15 members crew  was short down by surface to air missile. All servicemen perished.  Russia MOD said that it was Syrian missile but that creates several questions:

According to Izvestia (iz.ru, Sep 19, 2018):

According to several sources of "Izvestia" familiar with the situation, despite the bad weather, on that day (thunderstorm, clouds, light rain, air temperature was 21 degrees) Israeli fighters had to visually observe the Il-20. At that time, the visibility was about 6 thousand meters, and the plane came to land with the lights on.

The Russian Navy started search and rescue operation.

As told "Izvestia" several informed sources in the Russian military Department, the first to the crash site Il-20 arrived boat "Raptor" with combat swimmers PDSS. These forces are part of the naval base in Tartus and are engaged in its protection against possible sabotage and terrorist acts. Earlier, the soldiers of the PDSS and the crews of the Raptors were also the first to find the wreckage of the su-30CM Syrian aerospace forces, which crashed in may this year.

KP has even more precise description of how Israelis tried to use Russia IL-20 as  a Trojan horse for getting close to Lataka airfield and proposed a more direct response to Israel actions:

CUNNING THE ISRAELIS ARE LINED UP ON OUR PLANE "BOOKCASE»

- What in your opinion, as a professional, could be the cause of the error of the Syrian air defense, which brought down our Il-20?

- There are in aviation, such a clever technique - "air camouflage". It seems that the Israel fighter jets used it and timing of the mission was not accidental. Their planes fled in a compact group one above another over our huge size IL-20 in a kind of "bookcase" formation. This is why the mark  of our reconnaissance aircraft, and from the Israeli F-16 merged.

And the Syrian S-200 could not at this moment hit them, because the identification system "friend or foe", sewn into the brains of anti-aircraft missile systems, did not allow to do it. But this system is set up only to prevent the launch of the missile on "their", but when it is already released, it seeks that larget target and you can't re-aim it.

The constructed that its homing head catches a stronger reflection of the radar which "light up" the target. And the Il-20 reflecting surface is much larger than that of the fighter. Of course, the rocket went for stronger reflection sygnal.

And when the Israeli fighters changed course, on the screen of the C-200 appeared mark "alien". And Syrian air defenses opened fire. That's essentially how our plane was short down by "friendly fire".

Besides, don't forget that the S-200 is an old weapon. And the training of Syrian air defense specialists, to put it mildly, often leaves much to be desired...

- By the way, did our IL-20  has a system that warns of a missile attack from the ground or from the air?

- Certainly it has, but it can't react like a fighter jet, escaping the rocket. This is a huge plane.

... ... ...

Russian views the actions of the Israeli military as hostile

Putin while stating that Israel did not shoot down the IL-22 directly (unlike Turkish Jet deliberately setting a trap and shooting down Su-25 ) promised additional measures for defense of Russian military personnel "that everybody will notice". Of course, it's a little bit late, but nevertheless Isral need to think twise now before staging any raid in this area. Effectively this area became for Israel a "no-fly" zone.  As Saker noted (Russian response options to the latest Israeli provocation The Vineyard of the Saker )

Putin is absolutely right to take his time and not announce any immediate measures.  Not only is this region of our planet extremely dangerous, he also needs the inputs of all the experts.  In Russian we say that “haste is only needed when catching fleas”.

According to Sky News, Russia says Israel had not warned it about the jets' attack until a minute before, and that it reserved "the right to proper retaliatory actions." Actually Putin statement was pretty hostile to Israel, despite attempts of Western MSM to claim that Putin absolve Israel of the tragic death of 15 Russian serviceman and destruction of expensive plane.

Russia started an investigation to recreate the full picture of what happened.

Everyone on board died when the IL-20 reconnaissance plane was hit by one of four surface-to-air missiles, said the defense ministry.

"We view the actions of the Israeli military as hostile," a spokesman told Russian state television.

"Hiding behind the Russian aircraft, the Israeli pilots put it in the line of fire of Syrian anti-aircraft systems.

As a result, the IL-20... was shot down by the (Syrian) S-200 missile system,"said Igor Konashenkov.

He said Israeli pilots "could not have failed to see the Russian aircraft, as it was coming in to land from a height of five kilometers (three miles)."

Israel's military declined to comment, as did the foreign ministry and the prime minister's office

Syrian officials have also not commented.

Do we have any evidence?

Igor EMELYANOV

Military expert "Komsomolskaya Pravda" Mikhail TYMOSHENKO explained what arguments can be on the Russian side.

- Israel has already begun attempts to blame the "Assad regime" and Iran for the death of the Russian Il-20. And the question arises: does Russia have concrete evidence of provocation of Israeli fighters? What can we charge?

- First, we can rely on the fact that they warned us about the attack in just one minute. This is a mockery, not a warning.

Secondly, there should be records of the tracks of our Il-20 and Israeli f-16. They will be seen that they sat on his tail. Reduced the speed level with him. Because these fighters fly faster than 2000 kilometers per hour, and our Il - less than 700. This is proof.

Third, compare the time the game of hide and seek by Israeli aircraft with our IL-20 flight data from black boxes and timing of Syrian S-200. If they match, it's practically a guilty verdict.

We do not know how far from the shore and from the target was C-200. Range it-God forbid. Ukrainians at the time the same missile shut down our passenger Tu-154 airline "Siberia" over the Black sea. Which BTW flew from Israel. The missile was launched from the Crimea, and the plane was struck almost 300 kilometers from the launch point. Ukrainians believed that in this sector of the sky there is no one and that at such a range it will not knock anyone. But the rockets homing head captured Tu-154 and shut it down. Here picture can be roughly the same. Somebody pressed the "start" button, the missile was launched, I went to the tip of the target - until, has not yet reached the permitted range of the actuation head of guidance. Head captures the target with better radar reflection -- and that's it for the target, if it is unable to hide.

I think that, under while using IL-20 as a Trojan horse to enter close to Latakia airfiled, Israeli planes did not mange to perform their mission. They were only approching what il-20 was shot down (30 miles from coast). Entering the airspace of Syria after what happened to the Il-20 would be suisadal for them. Well, they did not go - they dropped guided bombs without proper accuracy and tried to escape as soon as possble. That's all.

If we conducted radar surveillance in this sector, then the real marks of the Israile place will show everything: here you were hiding, then you dropped the bomb, and then-there IL-20 was shot down.

AS IT WAS

Russian Il-20 in Syria was set up under attack by the Israeli air force. The plane was shot down by the Syrian air defense system S-200, killed 15 soldiers. The defense Ministry told the details of the disaster (details)

MEANWHILE

Yakov Kedmi-about the downed Russian Il-20: "Irresponsible actions of the Israeli military»

The Russian Ministry of defense called the provocative and hostile actions of the Israeli air force, which led to the death of 15 Russian soldiers and the loss of the Il-20 radar reconnaissance aircraft. Yesterday late in the evening, 4 Israeli F-16 fighters raided the province of Latakia in close proximity to Russian military bases. The Syrian air defense forces retaliated by firing into a Russian plane that was landing, which Israeli fighters used as a cover. The Russian military received warnings about the attack less than a minute before it began, so it was impossible to take the Il-20 to a safe zone.

"Komsomolskaya Pravda" asked to comment on the situation of the Israeli military expert, the former head of the special service "Nativ" Yakov Kedmi (details)

QUESTION OF THE DAY

How should Russia respond to this provocation?

Igor Korotchenko, chief editor of the magazine "national defense»:

- I think Israel should dismiss its defense Minister and air force commander-in-chief. And the Israeli government should make an official apology to Moscow. And compensation is needed. Depending on this, further decisions will follow.

Sergey SHARGUNOV, the writer, the Deputy of the state Duma:

- Everything that happened must be described as a terrible bloody setup. We need to assemble the UN Security Council. Moscow must firmly raise the question before the whole world: why is the territory of a sovereign state being bombed by other countries in defiance of international law?

Nikolai Antoshkin, hero of the Soviet Union, Colonel-General:

For every downed aircraft should meet the one who knocked, and he who has substituted. I hope our defense Department can figure this out.


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Old News ;-)

[Sep 19, 2018] Russia is in a very difficult position. It has absolutely treacherous enemies quite apart from supposed allies on all sides. The U.S.A. is even trying to destroy Orthodox Christianity to further isolate Russia. I have no doubt that there has been some very intense diplomacy behind the scenes. Remember, vengeance is a dish served cold, the western attitude for immediate gratification

Notable quotes:
"... The fact that Israel attacked today in Latakia in a temper tantrum proves this was a good deal to make for Syria. If the militants don't cooperate, they get hammered anyway. Nothing to lose. A very smart move by Putin again as well as Erdogan. I am sure China is helping financially by helping Turkey out with USSA Israeli sanctions and to get out from under the IMF. ..."
"... The hairy-chested Americans here are calling Putin weak, but he can't afford to make any over-reaching mistakes, and all decent, responsible human beings are glad of that. Do you want to have WW3 just to show how much "balls" you've got?" ..."
"... "STRONG IS NOT WHO FIGHTS WARS, STRONG IS WHO AVOIDS WAR." ..."
"... Defence minister Sergei Shoigu's statement on the shootdown at Russian military website here. https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12196031@egNews ..."
"... Putin makes it quite clear the statement by the Russian military that Israel is responsible is Russia's official position. ..."
"... You are probably right. Hindsight is 50-50 and this hasn't fully played out. My point larger point is just that if Putin had been more distrustful of Erdogan, then maybe he would've done things differently. If Erdogan doesn't keep his part of the bargain that has just been struck and never relinquishes Idlib, then Putin will have lost his Turkish gamble. It's already looking pretty dicey. ..."
"... The downing of the Russian plane was premeditated. Most likely, the holo-biz 'survivors' used electronic rerouting, which the Russians should have done long time ago against the nest of the bloody Bolshevik progeny and supremacists madmen like Miliekovski (Bibi) and the former night-club bouncer Avi Lieberman. ..."
"... Russia is in a very difficult position. It has absolutely treacherous enemies quite apart from supposed allies on all sides. The U.S.A. is even trying to destroy Orthodox Christianity to further isolate Russia. I have no doubt that there has been some very intense diplomacy behind the scenes. Remember, vengeance is a dish served cold, the western attitude for immediate gratification, e.g. ..."
"... So what are the chances that s-200 "...missile was aimed at the F-16 its seeker likely mistook the larger radar reflection of IL-20 for the intended target." as is stated in an article?Of course a possibilities are endless, in theoretical domain. But it would require sloppy operators ..."
"... At the same time, Israel is constantly working to prevent our enemies from arming themselves with advanced weaponry. Our red lines are as sharp as ever and our determination to enforce them is stronger than ever. ..."
"... This week we will mark, in synagogues and cemeteries, Yom Kippur, the holiest day of our people, and the day on which, 45 years ago, we absorbed a bloody attack that cost us thousands of victims. ..."
"... " thought Syria's goal was to redeem its territory." From whom? Syrians? With 5 million refugees outside of Syria? From a nation of 22 million. With 3 million refugees in Turkey alone. ..."
"... The reaction guided by the initial emotional state is almost always the incorrect one. This case is no different. ..."
"... That does not mean Russia must sit back and take it. It means its responses must be carefully thought out and deliberate. Not an emotional knee jerk. ..."
"... Russia looks weak because they are in a weak position. It appears the Anglo American Zionists want to demolish Syria completely. They have been goading Russia into firing back and and starting the war with NATO. The Russians have not because they know it will be all out demolition time. ..."
"... From Jose Garcia comment above: "War is for warmongers who never experience the hell they so desire." ..."
"... Serious followers of MoA understand that we are at a watershed time and reactive measures are never effective when downing a delusional foe in the throes of death. ..."
"... For all the Putin bashing going on, he appears to be the one riding the tiger. Taking on the entirety of the NATO-zionist alliance without support from China at the very least would undoubtedly be apocalyptic. Let the rooks and bishops set the trap. ..."
"... The cards that the MOD drew, meanwhile, call Israel's act "hostile" and point out that the Israeli pilots could not have missed seeing the Russian plane, and thus deliberately hid behind it. Although b linked to the Sputnik report of this, it may help for a visceral understanding of Russia's take to watch Konashenkov deliver his statement. A two minute clip from Vesti News: ..."
"... According to the Times of Isreal there are 250,000 Jews living in Moscow. With a population over 11 million that's about 2.5%. Elsewhere the numbers are lower. About 1/3 of the Jewish population in Moscow have Israeli citizenship (83000). Of the 200 richest people in Russia, 25% are Jewish according to some reports. So their power is perhaps greater than their numbers as is seen elsewhere . This is neither good or bad of course unless the power is used to support Israel over their country of residence/citizenship ..."
"... As for all the idiotic (IQ < 25) losers trolling here, as Clausewitz said, "war is the mere continuation of politics with other means" (not "by other means"), so war is all about politics. As Iraq and Afghanistan have shown recently, you can have the allegedly "most powerful military" in the world but if you don't understand the politics, you will lose, lose and keep on fucking losing. FUKUS have wanted regime change in Damascus for the last several years but it hasn't happened so FUKUS are the fucking losers so far and Putin will now ensure they go on losing. ..."
"... Putin is the master of cool understatement, and his comment about what a complex chain of accidents were required to lead to this tragedy I took to be dripping with venom. Especially since the Israelis know perfectly well this was intentional, and they know Putin knows. I would say they are extremely nervous right now. ..."
"... A major provocation was inevitable. The false flag chemical attack was disrupted with apparently magnificent intel. I heard a lot of scoffing when Russia presented evidence to the UNSC, but it must have been unusually damning and conclusive of direct Western collision with the terrorists. Did you notice there were none of the now customary Western leaks mocking the Russian presentation? Not a peep. Suddenly Hailey and the shills just changed their tune, that in fact a chemical attack wasn't necessary for them to act, that any attack at all upon terrorists in Idleb would be sufficient. Belatedly they started mentioning their overwhelming concern for the safety of the citizens, but then Russia and Turkey reached an understanding which would (at least in theory) address that. The neocons and zionists were apoplectic. Something had to be done! ..."
"... It is hardly debatable that this was a very carefully orchestrated and coordinated NATO+I operation. The West no doubt knew the Russian aircraft's patrol area and customary length of mission so this could be timed for when it was low on fuel and returning to base, its movements most predictable. ..."
Sep 19, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org
frances , Sep 18, 2018 1:18:23 PM

I read an excellent post on SouthFront that I think is worth posting here:

John Brown • 2 hours ago

This deal with Erdogan is better than I thought, as the Russian army will enter Idlib in large numbers escorted by the Turkish army without even having ot fight any battles at all.

This is why Israel downed the Russian military transport plane to try to wreck this deal which is huge victory for Syria.

The S-200 was fired at the F-16 earlier which drew the missile out towards the IL-20, then the F-16 kept the IL-20 in a line-of-sight between it and the missile, probably till the missile was out of range of identifying friend or foe, and used the heat signature to kill the nearest thing..

The deal also helps Russia and Syria by Erdogan is giving them a shield to free the rural areas of Latakia Idlib and Homs which they would have to do first any way. The Oct 15 deadline gives the Russians plenty of time to bomb the crap out of the militants. The buffer zone will also be territory Syria won't have to fight for as the Israeli terrorists will have to pull back and Russia has more time to greatly strengthen Syrian air defenses.

The fact that Israel attacked today in Latakia in a temper tantrum proves this was a good deal to make for Syria. If the militants don't cooperate, they get hammered anyway. Nothing to lose. A very smart move by Putin again as well as Erdogan. I am sure China is helping financially by helping Turkey out with USSA Israeli sanctions and to get out from under the IMF.

karlof1 , Sep 18, 2018 1:24:01 PM | link
i agree with these posts below..

"I don't believe this attack had anything to do with the Idlib agreement. Just another Israeli attack on Syria."
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 18, 2018 8:42:21 AM | 31

"Russia has its own S-400 systems defending Latakia, so it can defend itself and doesn't need Syria's S-200s.

They would have been watching the Israeli F-16s on radar, and then they get a phone call saying an attack is happening in one minute. Russia must have said "OK", because they didn't blow the F-16s out of the sky. All they have to say to Israel is "Next time it will NOT be OK." and Israel will have to stop it's invasions.

The hairy-chested Americans here are calling Putin weak, but he can't afford to make any over-reaching mistakes, and all decent, responsible human beings are glad of that. Do you want to have WW3 just to show how much "balls" you've got?"

Palloy | Sep 18, 2018 10:09:01 AM | 54

"STRONG IS NOT WHO FIGHTS WARS, STRONG IS WHO AVOIDS WAR."
Posted by: venice12 | Sep 18, 2018 10:09:18 AM | 55

It seems that most agree with my assessment that Russian policy is primarily at fault as I wrote @81. There's really no avoiding that fact, especially for Russians, which is likely to act like a stick stuck in the throat. The Zionists offer help with an "investigation" of the event, which is pure BS as the event's already been investigated, the facts revealed, and the responsible party and its criminal motive named. I'm sure numerous members of Syria's General Staff are privately--perhaps--saying "we told you so" regarding Russia's non-engagement policy. Maybe even Assad too.

Need to see Russian language media and Duma member reactions as Putin will need to address them. I wonder if the Kremlin Security Council discussed how they'd respond to such an event as another shootdown was very likely to occur.

On the question: Would having the S-300 system made any difference? Only if it had previously been used successfully to down Zionist aircraft and thus become seen as a credible deterrent to such attacks. But I doubt in this situation if its targeting system would have been able to differentiate between the larger and smaller targets.

Daniel , Sep 18, 2018 1:31:23 PM | link
This is perplexing. While Putin evidently whitewashes the Israeli act of war, he also dictates a firm message to Israel via MOD Shoigu. Russia used to be more consistent and firm when it was part of the the socialist USSR. Today everything is about capitalist profit and "win-win."

However, the U.S. population believes it is entitled to the world's resources by divine right, like Israel, and has indeed viewed itself as the New Israel. Nevertheless, much of the blame also goes to Iran for exaggerating its influence in Syria and Iraq and thus playing into Israeli propaganda.

Iran has also refused to defend its own assets in Syria and has deferred to Russia and/or Syria for protection.

Hezbollah likes to boast about its victories but is ineffectual (or more probably unwilling to retaliate) against Israeli use of Lebanese airspace to attack Syria.

Russia is infested with the Zionist lobby and a fifth column of Christian Zionists who work with George Soros on the left to pass superstitious anti-gay laws and then attack Russia for foreign-financed "human rights violations," leading to CIA-backed extremism on the left (Pussy Riot) and right (anti-immigrant white supremacy).

The FSB seems content to facilitate the destruction of its own country; one cannot blame institutional treason and/or spinelessness on one man (Putin). The bottom line is that "World War III or bust" has always been the NATO/Israel endgame and is a natural outgrowth of deep-seated, centuries-long tendencies in Western civilisation. Citizens of the West are guilty for passively voicing useless resistance against a ruthless oligarchy that only respects force.

If Westerners and their victims are unwilling to take up arms against the oligarchy (not that I would advocate that), then they shouldn't complain about the ceaseless wars and corruptions. They should just accept their status as slaves unto death without the faux protesting.

Peter AU 1 , Sep 18, 2018 1:40:17 PM | link

Defence minister Sergei Shoigu's statement on the shootdown at Russian military website here. https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12196031@egNews

Putin's public comment on the shootdown, which was in answer to a journalists quest is at the President of Russian Federation website here.
https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12196031@egNews

Thread seems to be full of troll and couch potatoes spewing crap. Putin makes it quite clear the statement by the Russian military that Israel is responsible is Russia's official position.

Guerrero , Sep 18, 2018 1:46:51 PM | link
In any complex chess position, one does well to maintain the possibility of the other side to make a blunder.
Daniel , Sep 18, 2018 1:50:37 PM | link
@ 107

There also seems to be a concerted propaganda effort by the MSM to claim that Russia supports Israel's attacks on alleged Iranian infrastructure in Syria, including Lebanese Hezbollah. The New York Times is asserting that Russian restraint has facilitated hundreds of Israeli airstrikes on Syria over the past year, and goes on to aver that Israel and Russia closely coordinate activities to limit Iranian influence in Syria.

The MSM clearly hope to drive a wedge between Russia and its regional partners, even though equal or greater blame should go to Iran for its own hesitancy to confront Israel. Hezbollah could have easily used its ever-growing post-2006 expertise to target Israeli electronic and air assets over Lebanon but has not done so, though Israel always utilises Lebanese (or Jordanian) airspace to attack Syria. Everyone likes to blame Putin but lets Iran, Syria, and the rest of the Russian military/diplomatic establishment off the proverbial hook.

Besides, Hezbollah has not done itself any favours by promoting anti-Semitic "Jews-control-the-world" canards on its al-Manar TV channel, which only discredits the otherwise worthy cause of anti-Zionism and only plays into hard-right Zionist hands.

Bashar al-Assad, for his part, made numerous flawed efforts to appease Israel and the West in the years prior to the 2011 intervention.

He privatised certain sectors of the economy; allowed Syria's arch-enemy, the pro-Zionist Muslim Brotherhood (Hamas), to set up offices; and in general tried to compensate for his inferiority and lack of experience.

When his father Hafez died in 2000, even the MSM paid grudging respect, something they have not done to Bashar. Bashar, like Gaddafi, Khrushchev, and other revisionists, was always trying to abandon the pan-Arab, anti-Zionist, socialist agenda of his father and seek "peaceful coexistence" with the West.

Yet everyone blames Putin. Sigh...

james , Sep 18, 2018 1:52:02 PM | link
@P36 jackrabbit... i have a few problems with the quote from you below.. first off, it suggests that the path syria-russia-iran has taken to regain syria could have been done differently and more effectively.. that is a 64,000 question that ignores a number of events that could or might have happened along the way to change everything at the place syria is now.. so, i disagree with you on this and think banding all the 'moderate headchoppers' and families in idlib was a smart move and one that is still being worked out.. pat lang was wrong on this from day one and doen't look at more right at this point as i see it..

"Pat Lang said that R+6 should have moved to take Idlib after Aleppo. He has now been proven right."

Peter AU 1 , Sep 18, 2018 2:18:10 PM | link
Segy Shoigu - "The head of the Russian defense Ministry reported that it had informed the defense Minister of Israel Avigdor Lieberman that Russia will not leave unanswered actions of the Israeli air force in Syria, which killed Russian soldiers."

Putin - "Our attitude towards this tragedy is set forth in a statement by our Defence Ministry, and has been fully coordinated with me."

partizan 112 it you that is fake, not the news.

Jackrabbit , Sep 18, 2018 2:20:26 PM | link
james @111

You are probably right. Hindsight is 50-50 and this hasn't fully played out. My point larger point is just that if Putin had been more distrustful of Erdogan, then maybe he would've done things differently. If Erdogan doesn't keep his part of the bargain that has just been struck and never relinquishes Idlib, then Putin will have lost his Turkish gamble. It's already looking pretty dicey.

Some counter this view by saying that Putin is "playing the long game". I disagree. The Empire has awoken and is defending its hegemonic vision. This is a 'race' (at times a game of chicken) that neither side can afford to lose.

Anya , Sep 18, 2018 2:21:57 PM | link
The downing of the Russian plane was premeditated. Most likely, the holo-biz 'survivors' used electronic rerouting, which the Russians should have done long time ago against the nest of the bloody Bolshevik progeny and supremacists madmen like Miliekovski (Bibi) and the former night-club bouncer Avi Lieberman.

The Jewish Fifth Column in Russia should feel the heat. Their Israeli relatives and best friends are guilty of the premeditated murder of Russians.

The Jewish Power in action: https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/nato-warships-amassed-by-syria-just-before-attack-on-lattakia/

"Combat vessels from the Second Standing NATO Maritime Group (NATO Maritime Group 2) moved closer to Syria's borders on the 16th of September, according to monitoring data from Western naval forces. In retrospect, we can see this sudden buildup as related to the French/US/Israeli strike on Lattakia and the downing of the Russian il-20 aircraft carrying 14 Russian soldiers

In particular, the eastern Mediterranean is now being patrolled by the Canadian Navy frigate HMCS Ville de Quebeс, by the Greek navy ship Elli and by the Dutch Navy frigate HNLMS De Ruyter, the latter being the group's flagship.

In addition to the aforementioned vessels, three American destroyers (USS Carney, USS Ross and USS Winston S. Churchill) are already in the region, as well as the USS 6th Fleet Admiral USS Mount Whitney.

The waters are also being patrolled by at least three Los Angeles-class US nuclear submarines. According to Western observers, the armament of the current US naval group in the Mediterranean includes more than 200 Tomahawk cruise missiles."

http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/the-anne-frank-test/

dh-mtl , Sep 18, 2018 2:22:53 PM | link
The agreement on Idlib reminds me of the Minsk agreements, of 2015. When the Minsk agreement was signed, many people called Putin a traitor and a weakling for abandoning the Lugansk and Donetsk republics. However looking back over the last 3 1/2 years we can see the true sense of the Minsk agreement.

1. Legitimization of the republics.
2. Commitment of Ukraine to federalization, which Ukraine had no intention of carrying out.
3. Tying the hands of the West because of 'The Minsk Agreement'.

Since then the conflict has been frozen. And every day Ukraine gets weaker and its Western owners throw away more money and credibility on a lost cause.

The Idlib agreement looks similar. What are likely results of this agreement?

1. Consolidating the exclusion of the U.S. from western Syria.
2. Positioning Turkey as the actor with responsibility to fight the U.S. coalition's Jihadis in Idlib. When combined with the situation with the Kurds, it consolidate's Turkey's position as a Russian ally and American foe.
3. Opening up transportation routes linking Damascus with Aleppo.
4. Freezing the conflict while a diplomatic solution is achieved, without the participation of the U.S. coalition.

It looks like a good deal for Syria and Russia. No wonder Israel was so furious.

Regarding Putin's reaction to the Il-20 downing, it looks like vintage Putin to me. He will not make a show of it, but will address the issue firmly, with action, not words, but on the terms and timing of his choice.

All of the commentators on this blog who denigrate Putin do not properly appreciate recent history.

Beibdnn. , Sep 18, 2018 2:25:13 PM | link
@T and all the experts. Russia is in a very difficult position. It has absolutely treacherous enemies quite apart from supposed allies on all sides. The U.S.A. is even trying to destroy Orthodox Christianity to further isolate Russia. I have no doubt that there has been some very intense diplomacy behind the scenes. Remember, vengeance is a dish served cold, the western attitude for immediate gratification, e.g.

Russia taking immediate and probably recklessly stupid retaliatory action won't serve either their or Syria's agendas, doesn't mean that action won't be taken. Putin is only human, we all make mistakes, if the situations were reversed, the U.S.A. Wouldn't even make it to 3rd world level.............

partizan , Sep 18, 2018 2:35:46 PM | link
"SARH (semi-active radar homing seeker) missiles require tracking radar to acquire the target, and a more narrowly focused illuminator radar to "light up" the target in order for the missile to lock on to the radar return reflected off target. The target must remain illuminated for the entire duration of the missile's flight ."

So what are the chances that s-200 "...missile was aimed at the F-16 its seeker likely mistook the larger radar reflection of IL-20 for the intended target." as is stated in an article?Of course a possibilities are endless, in theoretical domain. But it would require sloppy operators (unlikely that would be a Syrians in this case) to mistook the airplane loaded with all kind of electronics for an interceptor.

kral , Sep 18, 2018 2:47:37 PM | link
How can the Russians provide AD to Syria without incorporating automatic friend-or-foe recognition that allows only hostile aircraft to be targeted?

Was the relevant transponder in the IL-25 not working for some reason? Was it a software glitch? Was the Syrian equipment so old that it could not provide this safety measure without further modification? Or did the Syrians turn off this feature deliberately because they did not understand how to use it?

The answers will probably never be publicly known but the Israelis have shot themselves in the foot here by violating their de-confliction agreement with Russia.

laguerre , Sep 18, 2018 2:49:19 PM | link
yet more Israeli trolls, eg 131
Peter AU 1 , Sep 18, 2018 2:57:45 PM | link
karlof1 earlier in the thread linked to some pieces on the shootdown by Korybko
https://eurasiafuture.com/2018/09/18/initial-reaction-to-the-russian-israeli-crisis/
https://eurasiafuture.com/2018/09/18/russian-israeli-tensions-are-in-the-interests-of-the-us-and-iran/
https://eurasiafuture.com/2018/09/18/the-russian-israeli-crisis-climb-down-in-progress/

His take on the blogosphere is spot on but also his theory that and american Israeli faction in Israel engineered the situation to move deliberately put Israel on bad terms with Russia might have something.

Israel has never joined the US sanctions against Russia and Netanyahu told Trump to stand down in southwest Syria after Russia had worked its diplomacy.
I believe there is also a large voting block of ethnic Russians in Israel that may be a little pissed off about the shootdown.

partizan , Sep 18, 2018 2:58:43 PM | link
kral | Sep 18, 2018 2:47:37 PM | 134

i doubt that the Syrians handle this given the type of aircraft involved. IL-25 is allegedly shot down just off the Syrian coast where Russian have state of the art radars. In addition bunch of naval ships similarly equipped.

Peter AU 1 , Sep 18, 2018 3:09:42 PM | link
forgot to check for typos before posting my last comment.

kral 134 From what I read some time ago the S-200 warhead has a kill range of 150 meters and is armed with a proximity fuse. If that is right, the missile would only need to pass with 150 meters of the Russian plane while tracking the Israeli planes or missiles to take it out.

m , Sep 18, 2018 3:11:52 PM | link
There is more to this than meets the eye. Putin not only has to look after his troops, but he has to play politics, too, and in Russia there is a very strong 5th column of liberals and Jewish commentators who are now falling all over themselves trying to explain away Israeli actions to the Russian public. From The Saker:

"I am watching the Russian media and I have to report that Zionist propagandists (Russian liberals and Jewish commentators) look absolutely *terrible*: they are desperately trying to blame everybody (the Syrians, Hezbollah, and even the Russians) except for Israel. This will not sit well with the Russian public."

Without the public firmly behind him, taking actions that could quickly escalate will not go down well in Russia. Let people laugh and talk trash. I remember the shootdown of the Russian jet by Turkey, and everyone was screaming for Turkish blood. The Sultan eventually came back with hat in hand. It's a very tricky situation for Putin regarding Israel. This will take time to play out. The Russians will probably have the last laugh. https://thesaker.is/russia-blames-israel-for-the-shooting-down-of-her-ew-aircraft/

WJ , Sep 18, 2018 3:12:37 PM | link
@100,

Indeed. The brilliance of the Israeli strategy of provocation is that it will make the domestic political scene in Russia increasingly difficult for Putin to navigate in Syria. The more often Russian troops are killed or injured, the more quickly one half of the Russian populace demands action or withdrawal; the more they demand it, the harder it will be for Putin to maintain their support. For Israel and others are betting that he will never actually retaliate. They are creating a situation which is designed to make Russia's presence in Syria an impossible political situation for Putin himself.

Zico , Sep 18, 2018 3:24:20 PM | link
Another interesting point to note. Russia, Iran and Turkey recently had a meeting on the situation in Syria. The agreed to get rid of the rats in Idlib. Suddenly Putin turns around and makes a deal with ONLY Turkiye.

It's becoming clear that Turkey , Russia and (behind the scenes) Israel, are on the same side when it comes to Iran's presence in Syria. Syrians themselves don't have a say in their own country anymore.

The Syrian army now needs permission from a foriegn power to liberate their own land. Turning the other cheek only invites more slaps.

At this rate, Syria may well forget about Idlib. Turkey won't leave. The US won't leave either. Welcome to bulkinazation 101.

Red Ryder , Sep 18, 2018 3:38:42 PM | link
@138, Grieved,

With wisdom again . . .

I concur.

Israel broke the bond of trust. They will see in many ways and means that they bought the S-300 for Syria and eventually, a NO FLY over Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Iraq and Turkey. The S-400s will be linked and all anyone in a military aircraft has to do is call and ask for permission from Moscow/MOD/VVP. It's coming. Russia is in Syria to stay for 50+ years. And thus, it and its neighbors will be under the Russian missile defenses, integrated as a whole network.

In this Levant neighborhood, all the leaders want peace. Only Israel wants war.

The ME is wider and includes the psychos and sociopaths of Israel and Saudi Arabia and UAE. They want proxy war and US Centcom wars. But Russia has taken Turkey away and soon Iraq will be removed from US hegemony, also.

The Chinese are finishing an exercise as "ally" of Russia in Vostok 2018. They are seeing and feeling how Russia fights wars. This may give them the confidence to militarily join anchoring the ME for OBOR Silk Road development. They have much at stake in securing a peace. And just may join with a stout presence of the PLA. They should and now they might finally come.

The Chinese will be operating the port at Haifa, so it means they hold stakes in Syria and Iraq as well as Israel. In their own commercial interests and in President Xi's dream of BRI they have to invest a military presence. The time is perfect.

They intend to invest billions in reconstructing Syria. They should build their own military infrastructure base in Syria.

Their work with Russia in Vostok 2018 will make their presence inside Syria feel very comfortable.

michaelj72 , Sep 18, 2018 3:40:03 PM | link
well you go and let israel attack 'iranian' targets inside Syria some 200 times in two years or so, and ya don't expect any of your forces to ever get caught in the cross-fire?.....Well, russia, ya finally got caught.

more info here
http://news.trust.org/item/20180918140009-ol11r

"....But the ministry said it held Israel responsible because, at the time of the incident, Israeli jets were attacking Syrian targets and had only given Moscow one minute's warning, putting the Russian aircraft in danger of being caught in cross-fire..."

Jackrabbit , Sep 18, 2018 3:58:50 PM | link
"Putin showed weakness" is silly. He can't talk about secret accommodation for Israel - but he can end it .

<> <> <> <> <> <>

The 'accomodation' stemmed from Putin's view that Russia had no interest in getting involved in the Israel-Iran conflict. A wise choice because drawing Russia into that fray could lead to WWIII. Who is directly responsible for the downing of the plane is irrelevant. Israel clearly fucked with Russia by not giving them adequate warning.

Pft , Sep 18, 2018 4:32:20 PM | link
Israel controls Russia as much as it does the USA. Putin is a philo-semite. The Chief Rabbi of Russia is known as Putins Rabbi , he is from Brooklyn, a rabbi of the same orthodox sect as Kushner, Felix Sater and a couple of Putins biggest oligarch suporters . Many of Russias top oligarchs also have Israeli passports. Putins already met Bibi 3 times this year and trade and tourism between the 2 countries is booming with more than 60 flights from Israel to Moscow daily. A Russian academic is being tried for holocaust denial for daring to question some of the numbers. The media in Russia is just as pro-Israel as in US. The powerful Israeli lobby is global.


Bottom line, IMO there will be no revenge taken other than a token response to appease Russias military. Putting aside his pro Israeli stance, Putin knows an attack on Israel is the same as an attack on the Israeli controlled US . Not going to risk that for Syria, not for 14 soldiers. Thats just being smart. Weak, but smart.

Oui , Sep 18, 2018 5:01:05 PM | link
So it appears to be true Bibi Netanahau send a Yom Kippur warning to Israel's foes in Syria with "accomplices" Russia, Turkey and Iran.
At the same time, Israel is constantly working to prevent our enemies from arming themselves with advanced weaponry. Our red lines are as sharp as ever and our determination to enforce them is stronger than ever.

This week we will mark, in synagogues and cemeteries, Yom Kippur, the holiest day of our people, and the day on which, 45 years ago, we absorbed a bloody attack that cost us thousands of victims.

somebody , Sep 18, 2018 5:02:48 PM | link
Posted by: Russ | Sep 18, 2018 12:12:18 PM | 84

" thought Syria's goal was to redeem its territory." From whom? Syrians? With 5 million refugees outside of Syria? From a nation of 22 million. With 3 million refugees in Turkey alone.

Zachary F Goldberg , Sep 18, 2018 5:06:53 PM | link
If Israel did not attack Syria without any legal pretext, none of this would have happened. Why do the USA and its NATO allies stand by and watch as Israel commits so many acts of naked aggression?

Because USA and NATO are wholly owned subsidiaries of Israel. Besides, the USA does not sit idly by - it actively supports Israel.

juliania , Sep 18, 2018 5:09:44 PM | link
Thanks to karlof1 for the 3 links, to PeterAU1 for the two links to Russian response to the mishap, also to Grieved for reminding us how seriously Russia will be assessing a response, and b, of course, for bringing the matter before us in his always competent posting.

Here is a translation of part of what Putin had to say:

"...First of all, I would like to express condolences to the families of the dead.

As for your comparison with the downing of our plane by a Turkish fighter, this was a different situation. The Turkish fighter deliberately shot down our aircraft.

In this case, it is more a chain of tragic circumstances because an Israeli fighter did not down our aircraft. It goes without saying that we must get to the bottom of this. Our attitude towards this tragedy is set forth in a statement by our Defence Ministry, and has been fully coordinated with me.

As for reciprocal action, this will be primarily aimed at ensuring additional security for our military and our facilities in the Syrian Arab Republic. These steps will be seen by everyone..."

Because of the phrasing Putin has carefully used, I would place considerable emphasis on the fact that only one minute warning was given by the Israelis of this dangerous situation occurring in the region of a busy Syrian airport such as Latakia has to be. Israel certainly knows that Russian planes are using that airfield. Why only a one minute warning? would be my question. And from the answer to that would flow measures taken to avoid the occurrence which would detract considerably from Israel's freedom to operate in that manner in that region in future. Whether that will be Russia's only response is at the moment a matter of speculation. We shall have to wait and see.

Lets have some patience, and in the interim it wouldn't hurt to pray for peace. And also for the families of those airmen.

Zanon , Sep 18, 2018 5:10:57 PM | link
somebody

From whom? Have you missed that Idlib is occupied from the Syrian state?

U.N. Syria envoy Staffan de Mistura said there was a high concentration of foreign fighters in Idlib, including an estimated 10,000 fighters designated by the U.N. as terrorists, who he said belonged to the al-Nusra Front and al Qaeda.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-un/un-fears-chemical-weapons-in-syria-battle-with-10000-terrorists-idUSKCN1LF157
Lochearn , Sep 18, 2018 5:13:05 PM | link
@ 138 Grieved

I have no idea where that comment came from. Thanks for letting me know and for seeing it was not the sort of thing I would write. I wrote a while ago that I had been hacked.

Yes, those of us who have been here a long time now are not suddenly going to dismiss Mr Putin for one remark. I think it's his style to understate, to row back a bit from strong language, but that doesn't mean there won't be consequences for this action. I looked at Saker's blog and he is very critical as he has been for some time now - hence the link with Paul Craig Roberts. Fort Russ, which is run by Joaquin Flores took issue with Saker. I find Joaquin an interesting intellect. I thought his analysis of Turkeys plans for Idlib quite brave in the sense of forecasting (please Google fort russ this is how Syria will seize Idlib).

I think Israel was furious its hopes for a confrontation of the Syrian alliance with Turkey in Idlib had been dashed by an agreement the contents of which we are still not quite sure.

catnip , Sep 18, 2018 5:18:21 PM | link
The Agreement to protect and save the terrorist from destruction between Erdogan and Putin, Putin's in-action after the attack yesterday in Syria suggest the problems in Syria do not add up to a war between nation states. Clearly Putin is not defending humanity or justice, instead it seems he is engaged in a conflict between Oligarchs, especially the Oligarchs entrenched in London. USA, RUSSIA, France, Saudi Arabia, and Israel. If so, the outcome will determine which group of Oligarch owned corporations will own the output of the masses and which will plunder the resources in Syria.

If Assad wins, the masses will be able to retain their right to self determination, at least in Syria. If the rest of the world looses in Syria, everyone worldwide will be slave to the Oligarchs, no government will ever be allowed to be for the people, every government will instead be a tool of the Oligarchs, if the Oligarchs loose in Syria, they will likely nuke the world. Clearly, humanity has a problem. .

If the leadership of our nations are oligarch puppets, then why a war at all? This question suggest Putin-Erdogan agreement, Putin's failure to act and Putin's failure to allow Syria to have S-400s to defend itself, imply that Assad and even Syria are not really in the game, Syria is just the Stadium and Assad one of the players on the field, a player that can be fired at any time.. . Seems Assad stands alone against the Oligarchs as did Qaddafi and before him Saddam, and before him... on and on and on..

pogohere , Sep 18, 2018 5:28:07 PM | link
oldenyoung @3

J. Flores @ FortRuss agrees with you in an article to be posted after the site he edits recovers from an attack:

Written within the context of the disinfo wars the author analyses more fully in the yet to be posted article:

Excerpted:

"Secondly, readers will take note of the inclusion of the French denial. This French denial is bizarre and entirely out of place, since no one accused France.

. . .

The French 'early denial' when no accusation was made, means that the West had planned for France to be blamed, the French authorities were prepared to carry out their script and deny the accusations that the Russians were 'obviously' going to make.

Then something happened, and Russia didn't make that accusation. But there were the French authorities, going forward with the script, and in an incoherent way which really exposes what they were up to, and tells us all quite clearly what was planned, and yet all the while Russia doesn't at all blame France. Ridiculous, brilliant, absurd.

. . .

The aim of the Atlanticists is to have France do it, have France be blamed, and to cause a massive public relations problem, that Putin would have to respond to, by naming, blaming, the French, and seeking to hold them accountable. How will the French and Russian publics, respectively, take this? Not well, and it doesn't work well for the Eurasia project either. Macron will eventually be out, and it's politically near-impossible to hold the leader of a country, although temporary, responsible without blaming a whole people for something. Once you throw in the work of French media spin-doctors, they will absolutely succeed in twisting it not as a Macron problem but a problem that Russia has with blaming France and all the French by extension.

. . .

The IFF system, and the situation in Syria, is not at all like the situation in the Georgian war ten years ago, when at the time there were some official Russian reports of there being difficulties separating Georgian from Russian aircraft. This is because MiGs are identical to MiGs. IFF systems at the time are not the same as today, with integrated transponders which make auto-locking impossible from the start. The Syrian Army at Lattakia does not, in reality, operate as a separate army. There, they have what is known as an integrated command, at least insofar as these issues are concerned. So the SAA couldn't have attacked or locked onto a Russian plane, because the transponder data in real time that is part of newer IFF systems actually would mean there would have to be an intentional manual override over the computerated 'no-lock possible' response the S-200's computer system would have automatically generated for a Russian plane of any kind.

The S-200 has an extremely high accuracy, not more than a bit different from the S-400 for a single target, and specifically a target of this size and speed, it would have had to 'miss' the Israeli plane in question, which only has a 10-15% chance of doing, but then proceed to then actually hit the Russian plane. But not only hit the Russian plane, but critically so. This is all we can ascertain once we realize that auto-locking without manual override onto the Russian plane with the IFF transponder in direct connection with the SAA (Russian joint command) at Lattakia, is practically impossible unless we say there was an American asset working at the controls of the SAA's Lattakia computer.

. . .

The Putin-Erdogan deal reached yesterday indeed offers the strong probability for Syria to win without engaging in a needless conflict, and the promises of FUKUS attacks to be realized. Still, though they were anyhow, for no discernible reason given. Israel and France simply attacked in response to Turkey's cunning move. So time is on Russia's side.

That the aim of yesterday's surprise attack is punishment for the Turkish 'about face', which FRN stated as a very likely possible outcome, (for the record), is evident in that stories from RT and Sputnik reporting on the event had official statements, and not randomly so, saying that these attacks will not deter or reverse the Turkish-Russian agreement on the final resolution of Idlib.

What's needed now for the Atlanticists of FUKUS is to damage these relations as much as possible, Turkey vs. Russia, and Russia vs. France, and to cause Russia to blame France instead of blaming Israel.

This was a calculation, that Russia would not blame Israel due to the successful media hologram that Russia created that Israel has an inviolable special relationship (they do not, to this extent), and that instead that Russia will blame France. They did not expect Russia to accept the Western MSM Atlanticist narrative that the SAA had shot down the Russian plane either.

Between blaming France or Israel, the US expected Russia to blame France. Between blaming Syria or France, the US expected Russia to blame France. Between blaming Syria or Israel, the US expected Israel to be blamed.

They did not expect this hybrid of 'somewhat' blaming Israel for doing 'tricky stuff' in the air, the motives being hard to prove or qualify.

If Russia was to avoid an MH-17 situation in reverse, they had to think with agility. Russia has the physical evidence, the flight data, and the missile launch data. If they were going to blame France, which was mostly expected, it would have been a UNSC charade, a General Assembly charade, and a media charade with 'Putin blaming France' and Russia being accused of having possession of the evidence from which their case is made, and therefore the evidence being dodgy or even manufactured entirely.

The crash remains of the IL-20 are going to absolutely show that it was hit with a missile, any fragments etc. required to establish that, will show that's an Aster missile, or similar, like the missiles used in the S-200's. But they aren't going to show that the impact is consistent with a small missile carried by Israeli planes, or by gun strafing from an attack plane.

This is why Russia could not blame Israel,

Peter AU 1 , Sep 18, 2018 6:18:19 PM | link
Looking at the flightpaths of the Israeli aircraft and missiles, it seems likely the Russian plane would not have been in the target radar when the S-200 missiles were launched. The targets have the flown across behind the Russian aircraft causing it to be illuminated by the targeting radar after the missiles were launched. According to wikipedia the S-200 travel at 2.5km per second. At 35km offshore that is a minimum of 14 seconds from launch, most likely longer depending how far the S200 batteries are from the coast. Plenty of time to pull the targeting radar across so it also illuminates the Russian plane after missile launch.
karlof1 , Sep 18, 2018 6:27:04 PM | link
Aha! Finally found a partial copy of the Memorandum of Understanding arrived at in Sochi , which only shows the first 6 points thus its partialness. As noted in previous comment, the terrorists have already rejected abiding by it, so points 5&6 will not be undertaken, meaning the SAA's free to begin Idlib Dawn. Any barflies think Turks will convince terrorists to alter their stance?
Harry , Sep 18, 2018 6:32:54 PM | link
@ Jose Garcia | 85
Some here express that Putin should do this or why he didn't do that. It's easy to express those opinions from the comforts of home. Never having bullets fly over their heads, or having to pick up the remains of their comrades, blown to bits right in front of them. And to confront the families of those killed and explain to them why they will never return.

Lets ignore for a second keyboard warriors. However always turning second cheek doesn't work in geopolitics and wars. If not overtly, then covertly Russia should have said to Israel: Niet! And either MADE SURE that Israel never attacks Syria again (and put Russian soldiers in harms way), OR provide the means to Syria to defend itself.

Russia hasn't done either. End result? There will be MORE dead Russian soldiers in the future. Why Israel thinks it can bomb Syria 200x in last few years and get away with it? Because Russia doesnt allow Syria to defend themselves. Why Israel doesnt bomb Lebanon since 2006? Because they KNOW they would be in the World of hurt if they do. Russia should have done the same in Syria, but they overplayed "but Israel are our best buds!" hand and got screwed in the process. If Russia doesnt stop Israel even now, guess what happens next? Exactly, more dead Russians (and Syrians, Iranians, etc).

karlof1 , Sep 18, 2018 6:43:19 PM | link
Harry @177--

Yes, we agree; it's Russian policy that must change.

OT--Korean Summit--

Southfront provides this report about what's happening North of the DMZ, and provides a glimpse at what the US-driven propaganda line is as published within RoK. FYI, Moon and wife just completed a tour of RoK children's hospitals prior to heading North. Please note that Moon and Kim are on the same page when it comes to dealing with Outlaw US Empire.

Enrico Malatesta , Sep 18, 2018 6:52:38 PM | link
One possibility of revenge is to kill FUKUS/Israeli spooks in Idlib, I'm sure that Russia knows where they are & that there can't be a big MSM splash when a few Kalibr's are fired into Idlib.
John Gilberts , Sep 18, 2018 6:55:01 PM | link
"Not only Russian and (allegedly) Israeli and French aircraft and missiles were in the air. Civilian radar also tracked British Royal Air Force aircraft, which, unusually, had switched on their transponders and gone into holding patterns..."

Like AG17 /#32 I am particularly interested in further information or confirmation of French, British RAF or other NATO involvement in this ambush. If anyone spots anything further to the above quote from Haaretz used in b's piece, please post.

karlof1 , Sep 18, 2018 6:56:07 PM | link
Finian Cunningham pushes all the right buttons , but the tree he's trying to bark up instead is an unclimbable greased pole. So, despite his finely worded argument, nothing of substance will change--the UN will remain mute over Outlaw US Empire illegalities and serial Zionist aggression. But, I'll admit his words needed to be published, despite his being a lone voice in the wilderness known as Truth.
lysander , Sep 18, 2018 7:00:01 PM | link
The reaction guided by the initial emotional state is almost always the incorrect one. This case is no different.

Every regular reader of this blog would love the emotioanlly satisfaction of watching an immediate display of Russian firepower. But Elijah Magnier is correct in his most recent essay. Russia, Syria and Iran must keep their eyes on the prize, which is a reunified Syria. Notice how despite numerous provocations over the last e years, Syria is closer to that goal than ever. Russia should never be goaded into a war against the entire NATO alliance, which is exactly what could happen here.

That does not mean Russia must sit back and take it. It means its responses must be carefully thought out and deliberate. Not an emotional knee jerk.

karlof1 , Sep 18, 2018 7:49:02 PM | link
According to Magnier's latest , sources within Russia's Syrian command don't agree with Russian policy:

"'Russia has paid a heavy price for its unwillingness to exploit its superpower position in Syria, and for its failure to prevent any external force (US, EU or Israel) from bombing its allies in a theatre under its own control and dominance. In order to protect a perimeter where its forces were deployed, the US attacked and killed hundreds of Syrians in the al Tharda mountains under Obama, and hundreds more in Deir-Ezzour and al-Badiya. By contrast Israeli missiles flew over the Hmaymeen Russian-Syrian airport and the US Tomahawks which hit the Shuay'rat airport travelled over the heads of Russian forces', said the source which is part of the Russian command in Syria." [My emphasis]

Magnier thinks Russia will be able to wring a concession from the Zionists, but like the Outlaw US Empire, I don't see Zionists as "agreement capable" anymore than their Neocon cousins. There's more in his essay, but I'll allow others to discover those items.

The Idlib agreement and following Zionist crime seems to close another chapter in the ongoing Syrian Saga so a new one can begin tomorrow. One thing I believe to be certain: Never will the Zionist Abomination and Syria have normal relations; one or the other will eventually vanish from the pages of time. It remains extremely ironic that they worship the same God.

james , Sep 18, 2018 7:52:36 PM | link
@188 karlof1... israel has already displayed a complete disregard for the agreement it had with Russia, in giving russia notice.. 1 minute notice, when you are using the Russian surveillance plane as a decoy to boot, doesn't suffice.. i do believe Russia has to address this by giving Israel something in return, and more then a warning..

actually there are a number of good posts from many thoughtful posters today.. grom in particular asks good questions and expresses my thoughts as well.. i don't have answers to those questions..

james , Sep 18, 2018 8:06:02 PM | link
@190 karlof1.. i think it was a given the jihadis were going to veto the russia-turkey agreement.. it doesn't change the pressure on turkey and the jihadis to go to step 2 here with the oct 15th, or 10th deadline.. actually the jihadis were always far game as i understand it, just that turkey is trying to get them to convert to good moderate jihadi opposition to assad, lol..
https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/jihadist-groups-allegedly-reject-idlib-agreement/

smoothie has a good article up on the topic of last nights israel raid... the comments are also informative..
http://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2018/09/russia-loses-recce-il-20-in-syria.html

dltravers , Sep 18, 2018 8:26:50 PM | link
Russia looks weak because they are in a weak position. It appears the Anglo American Zionists want to demolish Syria completely. They have been goading Russia into firing back and and starting the war with NATO. The Russians have not because they know it will be all out demolition time.

The Russians can hit back but NATO, Israel, and Turkey have the overwhelming force and all want a piece of Syria in partition. Israel and Turkey are talking about restoring diplomatic relations over the last few days. The Kurd's in a joint alliance with Israel and NATO may get a piece of the action as well. Israel wants the old kingdom back and will never settle for Iran on its borders in force. NATO wants to kill of all of Russia's ally's and Turkey wants to be the old Ottoman Turks again. What a toxic mess.

Unless the Chinese come in with a very large contingent the Russians do not have much of a chance in the long run. Lets hope this is not the flashpoint to WW III.

They have backed a bear into a corner with her cubs and are poking it with a stick. This will not end well.

Chas , Sep 18, 2018 8:31:17 PM | link
If Russia wanted to make an asymmetrical attack on Israel how about doing something for the Palestinians?
Ike , Sep 18, 2018 8:50:58 PM | link
Anyone know what the French frigate was firing at?
Jackrabbit , Sep 18, 2018 8:54:44 PM | link
Ike

I don't think anyone knows right now but some think that the French may have fired defensively because missiles were coming in their direction.

psychohistorian , Sep 18, 2018 9:06:35 PM | link
From Jose Garcia comment above: "War is for warmongers who never experience the hell they so desire."

Serious followers of MoA understand that we are at a watershed time and reactive measures are never effective when downing a delusional foe in the throes of death.

Putin knows that this is a proxy fight over ongoing global power and control which empire is losing, not by being beat, but by being seen clearly as a social cancer that is metastasizing.

Yes, we all should offer condolences for the Russians that have died in this incident. I expect that if truth be known that more military than those number of Russians have died in the past 24 hours. Should any of those deaths be a reason to start a nuclear war?

I have said this before and some seem to not understand. The social organization of the West is an aggressive one that thrives on conflict. They cannot continue to exist without war and that is what Putin is denying them.

The West needs to die of its own internal contradictions and it seems to be doing so quite nicely as Russia and China let it flail as harmlessly as possible on the way down.......no nukes......yes, more unfortunate deaths as the beast is hemmed in further and further.

Stumpy , Sep 18, 2018 9:07:06 PM | link
Just to reinforce the notion that a retaliatory display of force by Russia might bring about the R2P response the FUKUS is angling for. If the Israeli F-16s really pulled off the feint that caused an onside goal by the SAA, well, quite the maneuver, be it luck or sheer gall.

For all the Putin bashing going on, he appears to be the one riding the tiger. Taking on the entirety of the NATO-zionist alliance without support from China at the very least would undoubtedly be apocalyptic. Let the rooks and bishops set the trap.

james , Sep 18, 2018 10:06:50 PM | link
@205 oldenyoung.. check smoothies article, and in particular the comments also in the comment section..

http://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2018/09/russia-loses-recce-il-20-in-syria.html

Grieved , Sep 18, 2018 10:07:42 PM | link
Concerning Russia's next moves. It seems to me that between Putin and Shoigu, Russia immediately moved to present zero reason to react, and a total range of options to react, both at the same time. Russia has drawn a full hand of cards for whatever it chooses to do. Everyone can now wait, and nothing they do can change whatever Russia does. And everyone knows this.

I do admire what one commenter here said, that Putin does Diplomacy while Shoigu does Trouble.

As b reported, Putin has said the MOD's statement reflects the position of Russia and that it is fully coordinated with him. Putin himself has absolved Israel of an act of war, and removed any tension for that kind of response. Therefore the relationship between Israel and Russia can continue, and it will thus be up to Israel to maintain the smile as Russia upgrades its control of the airspace. The immediate response, as Putin says, will be to reinforce the protection of Russians in Syria - this can only mean by air.

The cards that the MOD drew, meanwhile, call Israel's act "hostile" and point out that the Israeli pilots could not have missed seeing the Russian plane, and thus deliberately hid behind it. Although b linked to the Sputnik report of this, it may help for a visceral understanding of Russia's take to watch Konashenkov deliver his statement. A two minute clip from Vesti News:

Official Statement from MoD on Downing Russian Il-20 Aircraft

The military will move to protect its soldiers from Israel. That's the next visible move. Whatever that takes, and in whatever form is effective. Nothing else is changed. France or the US don't seem to figure in the surface statements anywhere. Israel however is in the sights, and has disqualified itself from having any standing to protest at whatever restrictions Russia places on it.

alaric , Sep 18, 2018 10:08:28 PM | link
No one is talking about the Russian claim that they detected launches from a French frigate. The Russian gov later said the Israeli F-16s used the french frigate for cover.

This is sort of a big deal. If the Israelis launched missiles from nearby the French frigate (FS Auvergne) then this was an attempt by Israel to get Russia or Syria to hit a NATO vessel which is sick but certainly within the realm of possibilities when you are dealing with Israel. If that is the case (i don't know maybe, maybe not) then Israel just failed spectacularly and Russia and France would know what Israel tried.

Peter AU 1 , Sep 18, 2018 10:27:55 PM | link
Smoothies last update on the shootdown is a link to a Russian news site where an ex Ru airforce type says the Syrian air defences that are integrated with the Russian air defences , don't have friend or foe recognition.

Syrian air defences have been responding to US and Israeli missile attacks for some time now. When the missiles are coming in they don't sit down and have a smoke and wait for all Russian aircraft to land. They respond instantly and there has never been a recognition problem. Russians fully upgraded Syrian air defences and don't allow them to recognize Russian aircraft... bullshit. The US and Israeli's engineered the takedown of the Russian aircraft.
Stumpy's take "riding the tiger" seems apt.

psychohistorian , Sep 18, 2018 10:46:36 PM | link
@ Grieved with the link to the Russian military response...thanks

I agree with you that despite the loss of life, this further closes the container within which Israel can act. I expect Russia/Syria to further restrict the airspace and force Israel to attempt even riskier attacks.

The moments of truth will come when/if Israel starts losing its jets to failed attacks Will they go nuclear to avoid losing face over their self inflicted demise?

I guess the good part about this situation is that change like this provides opportunity for growth where none existed before. The yet to see part is whether humanity takes the opportunity to evolve or stay mired it the evolutionary dead end it is in.

jsb , Sep 18, 2018 11:11:38 PM | link
Interview posted today from Syria by Vanessa Beeley:

https://youtu.be/UA651DWgDi8

Hoarsewhisperer , Sep 18, 2018 11:49:35 PM | link
I very much doubt that the Russian leadership will somehow seriously answer Israel. The spinelessness of Russian politics sometimes simply amaze (it's worth recalling, for example, the epic with the seizure of Russian diplomatic property by the US authorities - there was no intelligible answer from Russia, and still(!) there's no answer).
...
Posted by: alaff | Sep 18, 2018 5:37:06 PM | 173

No answer is necessary. Seizing a foreign embassy was an (unforgettable) violation of International Law and long-standing, unanimously-respected principles of Diplomacy.
It was a public display of ultra-infantile Yankee Dumbfuckery.

psychohistorian , Sep 19, 2018 12:06:52 AM | link
I hadn't seen this quote from Putin but I could have missed it with the troll volume this has brought to MoA

"MOSCOW, Sept. 18 (Xinhua) -- Operations of the Israeli air force are undertaken in violation of Syria's sovereignty, Russian President Vladimir Putin told Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu by phone on Tuesday."

It goes on to say that he intends on protecting Russian forces. I read this to say that he intends on insuring that Syria has the ability to defend its sovereignty....including airspace.

Will Israel try more incursions before that capability is in place? Stupid is as stupid does applies to all humans and no ethnicity is excluded.

When does the world get to deal with the base issue of private/public finance? Any alien watching our world turn would laugh at our inability to observe, let alone self manage out of our parasitic social organization.

Pft , Sep 19, 2018 12:11:30 AM | link
Julian@206

Yes. According to the Times of Isreal there are 250,000 Jews living in Moscow. With a population over 11 million that's about 2.5%. Elsewhere the numbers are lower. About 1/3 of the Jewish population in Moscow have Israeli citizenship (83000). Of the 200 richest people in Russia, 25% are Jewish according to some reports. So their power is perhaps greater than their numbers as is seen elsewhere . This is neither good or bad of course unless the power is used to support Israel over their country of residence/citizenship

J Swift , Sep 19, 2018 12:31:02 AM | link
I do love Putin's style...almost poetic, certainly high drama. When he says this seems to have been a most unfortunate string of events leading to this tragedy--when the Israelis know good and goddamn well it wasn't, and they goddamn well know he knows it wasn't--I can hardly imagine anything more blood curdling to those treacherous bastards. What dread they must feel!

That this was a carefully crafted provocation is hard to dispute. Actually, I was fearing something serious ever since Russia made it's presentation of false flag preparations to the UNSC a week or two ago. There was plenty of ridicule, to the effect that what did Russia hope to gain, and how could it possibly prove iFUKUS was directly involved with the terrorists, and look how the warned attack wasn't materializing. Well I have a suspicion the evidence was damning indeed, and extremely thorough. Did you notice that there were none of the usual mocking leaks by the West about Russia's presentation? And lo and behold, a few days later the Hailey and the rest of the US officialdom suddenly declared that a chemical attack wasn't necessary after all for iFUKUS to spring into action and flatten Syria. ANY ATTACK ON IDLIB AT ALL would be enough to merit an attack by the West. Almost as an afterthought they started talking about their deep concern for the long-suffering civilians and lovable terrorists. And then I'll be damned if Russia and Turkey weren't able to work out an understanding on Idlib that would help protect civilians!! (Well...)

It was clear from all this that a significant provocation would have to be supplied, and pretty quickly. Now we know what it was. We don't know exactly what was SUPPOSED to happen...that French frigate firing at precisely that time and location is very interesting, and perhaps the hope was that Russian defenses would have immediately launched an ASM at the frigate, and away we go! The war would have escalated so sideways so fast only curious historians would have ever looked back at the Israeli F-16s and strange failures-to-warn and said "hmmm." No, it was a NATO+ operation of considerable planning and coordination. And while what others have commented about this placing additional domestic pressure on Putin will undoubtedly prove true, for 20+ years he has proven up to the task. So with no immediate response, it is the Israelis who are left holding the bag and now attempt to slink away with a weak non-apology, and it is they who they know will feel the heat that is to come--who knows what and from who knows where, but it will come. At the very least Russia will no doubt greatly increase their and Syria's AA defenses, and I could see it being a very extensive no-fly zone. But I'm pretty sure that won't be the only price Israel pays...and it couldn't happen to a more deserving pack of weasels.

james , Sep 19, 2018 1:03:32 AM | link
i apologize if it has already been posted, but it is worth the read ..elijah j. magnier.. Russia, USA, Israel, Iran and Syria: a continuous struggle to trigger or avoid war
Peter AU 1 , Sep 19, 2018 1:08:12 AM | link
@james, bullshit to the piece smoothie has linked to which he has taken the information from. Russia are operating aircraft constantly in Syria. Syrian air defence must have and does have the capability to react instantly to an attack. Russia have fully upgraded the systems and integrated them with their own.
Under these circumstances, do find you it conceivable that the Russian upgrade would not allow the Syrian radars to determine friend (Russian, Syrian aircraft) or foe. From my understanding it is the radar or control system that determines friend or foe, not the missile.
KarlAnderson , Sep 19, 2018 1:16:05 AM | link
Governments don't care about people, period. Russia is no different. Putin has to think long term. A handful of soldiers and a plane or two is not a big loss. Turkey is a big price to have on team Russia. Think about gas pipelines to EU, black sea and Ukraine, not just Syria. It's a balancing act with many goals and they of course diverge from what Damascus wants. But like one commenter said, Putin is inching closer and closer to all the goals while FUKUS and Israel throws tantrums and monkey wrenches in desperation.
Peter AU 1 , Sep 19, 2018 1:22:26 AM | link
How wide is the beam of the targeting radar.
Senario - going by the Russian mod map the Israeli planes come in behind and to one side of the Russian plane and launches missiles. Syrian targeting radar locks onto the missiles and launch SAMs. The Israeli missiles heading towards the coast further north cross behind the Russian aircraft which is also briefly illuminated by the targeting radar. If by that time the Syrian SMS are in close proximity, a second or so of illumination as the radar is tracking the missiles is all it would take
Grieved , Sep 19, 2018 1:24:07 AM | link
@213 psychohistorian - who wonders how long Israel can act as a fool (while the whole world continues to ignore the "base issue of private/public finance?")

I think it's really important to remember how thin the slices of escalation are. We have continually been schooled in this by Russia. Russia doesn't operate on the Hollywood scale of proportion of "one dumb white-hat punch versus one equally dumb black-hat punch". This is the unreality in which we in the west have previously been schooled.

Instead, Russia acts as if everything were very real and very serious. She acts in the slow movement of cats, or samurai warriors, when they face each other. Somewhere in the choreography is the killing blow, but where will it strike? Where will it land? Neither cats nor samurai fighters know. So they slice each movement very thin.

There is no straight line from where we are today to where we might wish to be tomorrow. There will be innumerable slices of escalation and play and counter-play as the dialog of violence talks itself through its many paces.

We should not wish to hurry the day when everyone in the world agrees that Russia has won a supreme victory that marks a turning point in the story of the human race. We should instead - if I may offer the suggestion - relish the small certainties of each day along this measured path.

And this is just as regards Syria. But you could extend it to your overarching point too.

~~

As to this other, I suspect the answer to your unending advocacy for human finance will sprout unnoticed from the ground, far away from the battlefields, as an authentic alternative that first they will ignore, then laugh at, then fight against, and then yield to as it wins.

Please never stop advocating for this. You're right that it underlies everything. The reminder is important. Sometimes you have to overturn a paradigm by hand-cranking the wheel.

Jen , Sep 19, 2018 1:25:40 AM | link
Perhaps what the Russians ought to do is open an investigation into the incident in which the Ilyushin transport plane was shot down and require all parties involved to attend as witnesses.

It would be in Israel's best interests then to surrender its fighter jet pilots who sheltered in the transport plane's radar shadow into Russian custody to give their point of view and explain their motives and behaviour. After all, the investigation would be as much to clear Israel of any blame if the pilots were to admit that they were not acting on orders.

If Israel were to refuse to surrender the pilots, then that reaction could be read by the Russians to mean that Israel bears guilt for the transport plane's shootdown.

Incidentally did anyone notice that what the fighter pilots did was exactly the same as what Ukrainian fighter jets were doing to civilian passenger jets during the Donbass war in 2014?

cdvision , Sep 19, 2018 1:31:42 AM | link
At this point, and in the absence of any evidence, I'm inclined to think the French frigate was unwittingly used by the Israeli's as cover, with the intention to draw fire on the frigate. How do those French sailors feel about being only a flick of a switch from incineration?

The only lingering question is what was the French frigate doing their in the first place?

Peter AU 1 , Sep 19, 2018 1:36:25 AM | link
Grieved "Russia doesn't operate on the Hollywood scale of proportion of "one dumb white-hat punch versus one equally dumb black-hat punch". This is the unreality in which we in the west have previously been schooled."

That is what I am seeing here and on other comment threads. A majority expecting Russia to be a Hollywood white hat and booing them if they don't measure up to Hollywood.

The rest of your post equally as good as that line.

Peter AU 1 , Sep 19, 2018 1:54:13 AM | link
Debsisdead

Putin's statement to the press
"First of all, I would like to express condolences to the families of the dead.

As for your comparison with the downing of our plane by a Turkish fighter, this was a different situation. The Turkish fighter deliberately shot down our aircraft.

In this case, it is more a chain of tragic circumstances because an Israeli fighter did not down our aircraft. It goes without saying that we must get to the bottom of this. Our attitude towards this tragedy is set forth in a statement by our Defence Ministry, and has been fully coordinated with me.

As for reciprocal action, this will be primarily aimed at ensuring additional security for our military and our facilities in the Syrian Arab Republic. These steps will be seen by everyone."
http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/58586

Note "Our attitude towards this tragedy is set forth in a statement by our Defence Ministry, and has been fully coordinated with me."

Plenty of links to the statement by the spokesman for the ministry of defence in this thread, also Shoigu's phone call to Lieberman.

Nutty's phone call to Putin..
http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/58589
The Israeli Prime Minister expressed his condolences over the death of the 15 servicemen aboard the Il-20 aircraft shot down in Syria on September 17. With respect to a thorough investigation, Benjamin Netanyahu promised to provide detailed information on the activities of the Israeli Air Force over Syrian territory on that day, which will be delivered soon to Moscow by the Israeli Air Force commander.

Vladimir Putin noted that operations of this nature by the Israeli Air Force are in violation of Syria's sovereignty. In this particular case, Russian-Israeli agreements on preventing dangerous incidents had not been observed either, and that resulted in the Russian aircraft coming under Syrian air defence fire. The Russian President called on the Israeli side to prevent such incidents in the future.

Pft , Sep 19, 2018 2:49:55 AM | link
Paul Craig Roberts who is one of Putins biggest supporters is displeased in his latest article. Its been brewing for awhile.

Regardless of where you stand on him, at some point we should be wondering if Israel/US has Kompromat on him. I have speculated on a few occasions that Putin might be controlled and this Cold War II is just a mutually beneficial fiction to feed the respective MIC and maintain/increase power.

Recently read that Russia is planning to criminalize fake news. Obviously empowered by peoples concern of western influence but as we all know such powers can be abused .

snedly arkus , Sep 19, 2018 3:02:25 AM | link
The Russian military is a defensive one to guard the homeland. Outside of Russia their military is at a disadvantage against the US, NATO, and Israel and they know it. With the US and it's bootlickers using every excuse in the book to sanction and destroy the Russian economy thus the nation Putin has to walk a fine line between all parties and can only spare a small force, which has done excellent work, in Syria. Putin knows full well the Israelis and the US are just begging for an excuse to wipe out the Russian force in Syria thus Putin has to take the punches and use his wits unlike the exceptional American keyboard warriors from the one indispensable nation on the planet who's answer to everything is brute force. One only has to see the results in Syria since the Russians have arrived and agree they have done a remarkable job even with the US backing and supplying the rebels. Russia is in Syria looking out for it's interests and it has no obligation to defend anyone as there is no country on the planet save China that would go to bat for Russia. Most any other country would have buckled and destroyed itself from within with the stuff the US and it's bootlickers have thrown at it but Russia is continuing to thrive thanks to Putin's focus on his country and people and countering those that wish to destroy Russia using his brains against stupid US brawn. As one commentor has said the world should be thankful for Putin's restraint as it's kept WW3 at bay.
somebody , Sep 19, 2018 3:11:36 AM | link
add to 237

Official statement on the telephone conversation between Putin and Netanyahu .

Vladimir Putin noted that operations of this nature by the Israeli Air Force are in violation of Syria's sovereignty. In this particular case, Russian-Israeli agreements on preventing dangerous incidents had not been observed either, and that resulted in the Russian aircraft coming under Syrian air defence fire. The Russian President called on the Israeli side to prevent such incidents in the future.

And - How Russia can respond to Israel following Ilyushin Il20 shootdown

partizan , Sep 19, 2018 3:26:54 AM | link
"Any resemblance to reality is purely coincidental"

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-09-18/norway-officials-admit-they-knew-nothing-about-libya-joined-regime-change-efforts

Top Norwegian officials have now admitted they "had very limited knowledge" of events unfolding in Libya during 2010 and 2011, prior to NATO's military intervention on behalf of anti-Gaddafi rebels -- a war that resulted in regime change and a failed state ruled by competing governments and extremist militias to this day. Norway enthusiastically joined the US, UK, and French led bombing of the country initiated in March 2011 even knowing full well its military knew next to nothing of what was unfolding on the ground.

But what did decision-makers have to go on? Consider this absurd admission from the official report: "In such situations, decision-makers often rely on information from media and other countries," the report reads.

Peter AU 1 , Sep 19, 2018 3:28:09 AM | link
Russia is on reasonable terms with Israel and recognizes the state of Israel. Russia is on good terms with both Iran and Syria and recognizes their legitimate governments and is insuring that the Syrian state is not destroyed by Israel US. Neither Syria nor Iran recognize the state of Israel. Russia does not interfere in Iran Syrian actions against Israel nor does it interfere in Israel direct actions against Syria Iran - till now. Russia has been the mediator.

Until now Israel has not risked burning its bridges with Russia. Now Nutty sends his airforce chief running off to Moscow with an olive branch in his mouth and another stuck in his arse for good measure.

Is Nutty trying to pull a swiftly or are US zionists trying to burn Nutty's bridge with Moscow...

partizan , Sep 19, 2018 3:31:28 AM | link
NATO's name for the operation was the US code name 'Operation Odyssey Dawn,' and Norway flew 596 strike missions during the first five months of the NATO intervention, dropping 588 bombs on Libyan targets, according to the report. Norway had provided six F-16 fighter jets and its pilots were reported to have conducted 10 percent of all coalition strikes against pro-Gaddafi forces.
partizan , Sep 19, 2018 3:36:21 AM | link
love these Scandinavian freedom and human right people and their naivety.
Norwegian , Sep 19, 2018 3:58:43 AM | link
@partizan 242,245,246

You are indeed correct to point his out. Remember, the word Quisling was invented here. As for our former PM Stoltenberg, now NATO chief, he is the ultimate hypocrite. His best 'defense' is that most likely they have something on him. The happenings of 22. July 2011 was a turning point. The victims within his party were advocating boycott of Israel the day before on that very island.

John Gilberts , Sep 19, 2018 4:35:38 AM | link
Putin's Forfeit - From Strategic Mistake to Strategic Defeat in 24 Hours

http://johnhelmer.net/putins-forfeit-from-strategic-mistake-to-strategic-defeat-in-24-hours/

Peter AU 1 , Sep 19, 2018 4:44:24 AM | link
Harry
Public admission on right or wrong is no problems. S-300 - much depends on how low Israel is willing to crawl. The more subservient to Russia Israel becomes, the less chance that Russia will supply an S-300 to Syria.

After Turkey shot down the Russian plane then kowtowed, Russia has signed a deal for the S-400 with Turkey. The Israeli attack it seems was due to Turkey reaching an agreement with Russia on Idlib. How about using future Israeli attacks in SAA territory as a gauge.

Jeremy , Sep 19, 2018 5:17:35 AM | link
Brendan O'Connell has been harping on the theme that Putin and Bibi are best buddies. According to him, Israel 'acquires' US tech and sells it to the Russians and the Chinese. He says that Russians living in Israel dominate the high tech sector in Israel and reverse engineer American high tech received by Israel. He is quite insistent that this is the big issue that still goes unrecognized. At the very least, his claims, which may be exaggerated or simply mistaken, should be critically examined. They would go a long way to explaining Putin's passivity. They point to material and financial considerations -- as opposed to ideological or political -- as having the uppermost importance, i.e., follow the money. O'Connell suggests that all of these leaders are in bed together and are just playing a game with us rubes. He's quite the cynic, but also quite entertaining.
Ghost Ship , Sep 19, 2018 5:21:15 AM | link
The main foreign policy issue of concern to Netanyahu is removing Iranian forces (how ever insignificant they are) from Syria. Netanyahu has been able to rely on some support from Putin for this up until now. How much longer?

As for all the idiotic (IQ < 25) losers trolling here, as Clausewitz said, "war is the mere continuation of politics with other means" (not "by other means"), so war is all about politics. As Iraq and Afghanistan have shown recently, you can have the allegedly "most powerful military" in the world but if you don't understand the politics, you will lose, lose and keep on fucking losing. FUKUS have wanted regime change in Damascus for the last several years but it hasn't happened so FUKUS are the fucking losers so far and Putin will now ensure they go on losing.

Peter AU 1 , Sep 19, 2018 5:40:56 AM | link
Harry, how long would Syria last if Russia handed them the Keys to an S-300 system and walked away. Not long. Russia has inserted themselves into Syria to prevent the destruction of Syria by foreign and proxy forces.
A better gauge than an S-300 is required.
somebody , Sep 19, 2018 5:45:20 AM | link
Russian interest in the Middle East

- make sure there are no alternative gas pipelines to Europe
- make sure there is no ethnic/religious independence threat to Caucasus region
- sale of arms

Iranian interest in the Middle East
- make sure there is no ethnic/religious independence threat to Iran

Saudi problem with Iran
- ethnic/religious indepence threat of their oil rich region
- the Strait of Hormuz

Israeli problem
- feeling delegitimized and threatened by everybody

So if Middle Easterners could dial down on the threat level ...

Present US interests in the Middle East
- a Christian Zionist electorate
- Saudi money
- sale of arms

Chinese interest in the Middle East
- oil, lots of oil

As long as Saudi Arabia and Iran cannot solve their problem, this rift will be exploited by other powers for their own ends

I probably missed some stuff. But Russian interests are best served by selling to all countries.

Charles Wood , Sep 19, 2018 5:46:11 AM | link
IFF is an add-on pack to the command vehicle in the S200 battery. It is used to inform the battery commander of targets, or targets to avoid, prior to launch.

Once a missile is launched IFF is no longer used.

It is possible that either the SAA S200 battery saw IFF of the IL20 and thought it was spoofed (not unreasonable), or the Israeli aircraft suppressed the IFF response received by the SAA battery.

What is also likely is that the SAA / RuAF integration in air defence is less than optimal.

Ghost Ship , Sep 19, 2018 5:49:05 AM | link
Meanwhile back in the real world, the trap that Putin has set for the jihadist losers with the latest agreement is pretty fucking obvious except perhaps to the fuckwit trolls that have infected this site recently.

The Russians have given the jihadists until 15th October, 2018 to leave the demilitarised zone but the jihadists have rejected the agreement on Idlib so they're not going to move . In a month or so the SAA/Russia can slice 15-20km off Idlib any time they like after that with nothing more than a rant from Nikki Haley and some CIF crap. The first 20 km gives the SAA Khan Shaykhoun and Jisr ash-Shugur. Another month and the SAA can quite "legally"*** take the whole southern Idlib. Looks to me like Putin is relying yet again on the complete lack of strategic understand demonstrated by the fuckwits, whoever they might be, backing the jihadists.
Even if the jihadists do pull back, which I doubt, they are stupid enough to breach the ceasefire within a month or so because their imbecilic patrons pay to see "action".

*** - of course, the SAA can legally take Syrian territory any time it likes but FUKUS would disagree and might take illegal actions to prevent it. With the jihadists breaking the Idlib agreement, it would be harder for FUKUS to become involved not that it would necessarily stop them but do they really want a World War in defence of Al Qaeda?.

somebody , Sep 19, 2018 5:52:46 AM | link
add to 257
I forgot the price of oil
Iran OPEC chief: 'Saudi and Russia are taking oil market hostage'
and
Russia tells Washington to Leave Iran Alone
In a plot fit for an award-winning drama series, last week U.S. Secretary of Energy Rick Perry traveled to Moscow to discuss energy topics with Novak. Although no details concerning oil markets were disclosed, these were bound to have been discussed: Perry praised Russia for its readiness to keep oil supply stable just as he warned Moscow to "stop using energy as a weapon."

In a no less charming puzzle of mixed signals, earlier this week Iran's OPEC governor accused its friend Russia and foe Saudi Arabia of stealing its market share and enjoying higher oil revenues at Tehran's expense. A day later, Foreign Ministry spokesman Bahram Quasemi dismissed "media reports" containing these accusations, saying, "We do not agree with some reports of media."

Everyone involved in this geopolitical dance seems to be walking a thin line between its interests and those of other stakeholders that are at odds with its own.

pB , Sep 19, 2018 7:48:31 AM | link
@ ike 199 "so the Israel's are killing their own".

unthinkable! https://www.wrmea.org/2018-august-september/the-dark-secret-of-israels-stolen-babies.html

J Swift , Sep 19, 2018 7:58:54 AM | link
Putin is the master of cool understatement, and his comment about what a complex chain of accidents were required to lead to this tragedy I took to be dripping with venom. Especially since the Israelis know perfectly well this was intentional, and they know Putin knows. I would say they are extremely nervous right now.

A major provocation was inevitable. The false flag chemical attack was disrupted with apparently magnificent intel. I heard a lot of scoffing when Russia presented evidence to the UNSC, but it must have been unusually damning and conclusive of direct Western collision with the terrorists. Did you notice there were none of the now customary Western leaks mocking the Russian presentation? Not a peep. Suddenly Hailey and the shills just changed their tune, that in fact a chemical attack wasn't necessary for them to act, that any attack at all upon terrorists in Idleb would be sufficient. Belatedly they started mentioning their overwhelming concern for the safety of the citizens, but then Russia and Turkey reached an understanding which would (at least in theory) address that. The neocons and zionists were apoplectic. Something had to be done!

It is hardly debatable that this was a very carefully orchestrated and coordinated NATO+I operation. The West no doubt knew the Russian aircraft's patrol area and customary length of mission so this could be timed for when it was low on fuel and returning to base, its movements most predictable.

The French frigate was just where it needed to be to provide cover and fire missiles. We can only guess as to how the operation was supposed to conclude...probably with the hopes that the Russians would assume the French had shot down their plane and fire off an ASM or two (those Brit planes were probably lurking in the background to provide additional cover for the frigate to beat a hasty retreat and provide quick escalatory counter-attack).

It was a quite sophisticated neocon war plan. The only thing that failed was the immediate response by Russia. Now Israel is left holding the bag and no doubt extremely nervous about kicking the hornet's nest. We don't know all the ways Russia will respond, but life will become much more difficult for Israeli pilots, and at the very least Russia will "for the good of everyone and to prevent such accidents in the future" more or less close at least a large hunk of Syrian airspace...but I bet there will be all sorts of "accidents" involving Israeli and other Western operatives. Russia has already demonstrated its intel is frightening, I'd say they will use it.

somebody , Sep 19, 2018 7:59:33 AM | link
add to 266

This is what it is about - pressuring Syria to drop the alliance with Iran .

A Russian-Iranian-Turkish - by extension Syrian - alliance is what they do not want.

Pft , Sep 19, 2018 8:10:38 AM | link
Jeremy@254

Thanks for the tip on Brendan O'Connell. Do you have a link as I have been thinking along the same lines, which probably make us one of a dozen out of 7 billion 99% ers, or have I understated this? A quick search shows he was jailed for critizing Israel in AU and his blog was shut down. I dont do twitter

CarlD , Sep 19, 2018 8:50:19 AM | link
One thing puzzles me:

The IL 20 must have been squawking their assigned transponder code that would tell Russian Radars that this aircraft is a friend.

Not to long ago, Israeli planes squawked US transponders IDs so the Russians did not fire at them and they were able to drop their missiles
and return safely home.

In the same vein, if the SAA AD is linked to the Russian radars, how can a missile guided by this radar go after an aircraft displaying friendly numbers?

What kind of EW were the F-16 using if they got the Russian radars to allow shooting at an identified Friend?

Then, on approach to a runway, all aircraft will be squawking assigned transponder codes. Therefore there is something fishy in the narrative
that it was an S200 salvo that downed the IL 20.

Brian , Sep 19, 2018 9:26:49 AM | link
Perer AU 1 @ 108 I wholly agree with Peter. I find the comments on this thread totally out of character with the informed and balanced comments usually found on this site. Russia doesn't do knee-jerk. They analyse, prepare and if necessary act in their best interests (and those of the whole planet) to prevent a wider war. Don't confuse comment for response.

Jackrabbit @ 198 above. For an interesting analysis of this event and the French involvement in it have a look at this: https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/full-analysis-russian-disinfo-campaign-blames-israel-for-il-20-plane-downing-yet-exonerates-france/ Makes a lot of sense on many levels.

Ghost Ship , Sep 19, 2018 9:41:16 AM | link
For all the noise about the Skripals and chemical weapons in Syria, the last thing the British government wants is a war with anyone because unless the government goes straight to thermonuclear weapons, it is fucked if it starts a conventional war with any country other than San Marino*** or Sark. Eight years of austerity and overpriced hardware has gutted the British military until it's little more than a glorified militia which would be locked up by the police if it went with a coup. Back in the 1980s, there was much talk of a military coup in the UK if the Labour Party under Michael Foot won an election. The reduction in the size of the UK military and events in Iraq now mean that anyone suggesting that a military coup might take place in the UK if the Labour Party and Jeremy Corbyn win the next election would be given a one-way ticket to the funny farm along with Boris Johnson.

As for the rest of NATO, including all the Netherland's tank divisions, it's also pretty well fucked and most likely incapable of organising a piss up in a brewey. NATO can't even do a decent black propaganda operation. Anything more complex, such as a "very carefully orchestrated and coordinated NATO+I operation", forget it

Guerrero , Sep 19, 2018 9:42:21 AM | link
Brian at 273: analysis of the French involvement in it; have a look at this: https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/full-analysis-russian-disinfo-campaign-blames-israel-for-il-20-plane-downing-yet-exonerates-france/ Makes a lot of sense on many levels.

I agree. Flores may have nailed it.

Zanon , Sep 19, 2018 10:06:00 AM | link
somebody

Israel hit:

In a series of tweets the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) explained that its jets were targeting a Syrian facility "from which systems to manufacture accurate and lethal weapons were about to be transferred on behalf of Iran to Hezbollah in Lebanon." It claimed that the weapons were "meant to attack Israel."
https://www.rt.com/news/438712-idf-statement-il20-downing/
An hour-long attack on Latakia began around 10pm local time, and targeted a power station as well as two facilities belonging to the Syrian military. Syrian officials said the attack was "foreign" and came "from the sea," but could not initially confirm rumors that Israel was behind it. Seven people were injured in the attack, according to Syrian officials.
https://www.rt.com/news/438673-russian-il20-disappears-radars/

Some witness: 'Rockets falling, explosions over sea': Witnesses recall moment of Israeli raid in Latakia (VIDEO) https://www.rt.com/news/438774-israel-raid-syria-witnesses/

Veritas X- , Sep 19, 2018 10:13:35 AM | link
I just read the following HERE: https://syrianperspective.com/2018/09/stunning-double-ambush-by-af-intel-in-homs-reveals-american-criminal-conduct-attack-on-latakia-still-muddled.html

Whether it's true or false, I can't confirm now.
However, *Igor Bundy* is someone who I believe to be a highly credible source.
Please mind the 'paste job'.
Most Important is YOU see what's been posted the past hour.
>>>>>>>>>>
Igor Bundy

Russia declares no fly zone over Israel coast and northern Israel..

Syrian radar data shows it is not responsible for shooting down the Russian IL20..

comment image

Based on NOTAMs issued by #Russia|n Navy, if an #Israel|i fighter jet wants to fly out of #Israel & even attack #Syria, it must fly above 19,000ft. If flies below, it will be shot-down by Russian S-300F. But flying above 19,000ft will cause their shot-down by #Syria|n S-200s!

#Russia|n Navy "Marshal Ustinov" (055) Slava-class guided missile cruiser which has 64 S-300F surface to air missiles is now sailing in #MediterraneanSea waters NW. of #Israel. However it has blocked airspace over NW of Israel till FL190 but its S-300s are dangerous till FL900!
3 Reply
39 minutes ago
Igor Bundy
Guest
Level 8 - Legatus Legionis
Igor Bundy

#Russia not received data from #Israel on situation with IL-20 in #Syria – Peskov https://sptnkne.ws/j9ce

-#Russia launched an S-400 missile/s against the Israeli jets which were dropping bombs 100Km away, so we're kept in the dark for now.

-#Russia responded immediately to the attack before the il-20M was lost Because the S-200 missiles were launched 20 min after the first wave.

-The attack lasted about 50 min, so only 4 F-16 doing the bombing is unlikely
0 Reply
28 minutes ago
Igor Bundy
Guest
Level 8 - Legatus Legionis
Igor Bundy

Missing from the Russian map are the two British Air Force planes reported in Israel to have taken off from the Akrotiri airbase in Cyprus, and to have maintained a holding pattern above the flight path of the Israeli F-16 fighter-bombers as they moved into their firing positions.

Russian S-400 anti-aircraft missiles protect the Khmeimim airbase; their radar and strike ranges are at least 400 kilometres. On Monday evening this meant that Russian air defence crews and the Khmeimim base command tracked the Israeli aircraft from their takeoff positions out into the Mediterranean, and then as they turned north on their attack run. The S-400 crews were also tracking the British aircraft as they took off from Cyprus. When the French frigate Auvergne fired missiles, the S-400 crews at Khmeimim tracked their flight paths.

Subsequent Russian press reports and Defence Ministry releases say the timing of the IDF firing at Latakia, the French missile launches, and the destruction of the Il-20 occurred within seconds of one another.

http://johnhelmer.org/?p=17934
0 Reply
4 minutes ago

Guerrero , Sep 19, 2018 10:18:52 AM | link
Grieved at 225:We should not wish to hurry the day when everyone in the world agrees that Russia has won a supreme victory that marks a turning point in the story of the human race. We should instead - if I may offer the suggestion - relish the small certainties of each day along this measured path.

Likewise in a chess match, an objective assessment of position rarely admits checkmate.

THE GENIUS

W. Shakespeare

No limit, no space, no horizon;
And leave him drawing from his flight
The gigantic curve in the void.
March on your mission, march; heaven
Does not have the measure
From his wings of fire; the spaces
They shudder at the breath of their life.
Marching is your mission, to go without respite
Of the infinite arcane
Through the dark and eternal path,
Riding, sovereign rider,
On the tame steed of destiny.

partizan , Sep 19, 2018 10:23:18 AM | link
More fake news, from the Russian journalist. Interesting comments though.

"Source: #Syrian counterespionage arrested entire 44th air defense battalion, whose S-200 reportedly shot down Russian Il-20"

https://twitter.com/SyriaWarReports/status/1042335555130937346

Arioch , Sep 19, 2018 11:22:17 AM | link
@Grom #149

> Il-20s don't grow on trees!!!

True, but it is most probably not the last Il-20 that Russia has. It is a huge loss, but it is not a devastating loss yet. Same about the SIGINT professionals perished with the plane.

> Why did they allow the Israelis to get *so dangerously close* to their prized asset - the Il-20

They commanded Il-20 to go landing - a bit too late as it turned out. I also think that Israel jets are barraging in Israeli and international air around Syria pretty regular. Should Russians down all their planes when Israeli jets are in air? That would be a de facto Israel's no fly zone over Syria.

In a hindsight Il-20 should had better be ordered to land on some faraway airfield instead.... Well, hindsight is cheap.

> What about the Russian EW-systems?

I do not think they were ready to deflect Syrian missiles, even if that could be technically possible. However the question how can Russian aircrafts be better protected from the event of SAA AD friendly fire is very important.

> Why was the Il-20 not escorted?

What would it change? Would the said escort bomb out al lthe Syrian S-200 stations in the firing range around?

> 4) What about Russian-Syrian coordination??? We know that the S-200s operated by the Syrians had been upgraded/serviced - this *must* have included the surveillance/tracking radars, as well as the IFF systems. So how could the Syrian SAM crews even fire the missile? Even if the Israelis claim that they informed the Russians just short of a minute or so before the strike, the Russians *must have seen - AND - tracked* the flight of the F-16s well in advance and even from their take-off, so they *should have informed* the Syrians.

very good set of questions, but I think most of it would be military secrets.

Few thoughts about though:

4.a) other states than Russia should not get Russian military IFF systems. Or they would end up in USA/Israel hands. For example Iran could not save their lead nuclear physics scientists from assassination. Israeli agents are in numbers all through middle east. Also Israel has a number of Soviet tanks taken form Arab states in 1960-s and 1970-s.

All Soviet military secrets that could had been in those tanks - fallen into Israeli/NATO hands then. So, no. Russia would not want USA strategic bombers raining nukes over Russian cities using cloned Russian-Syrian IFF units to disable all Russian AD missiles, period.

4.b) as the infamous video about Pantsir-S1 destruction suggests, Syrian AD crew are not very well educated and disciplined. Of course SAA should not fire old dumb S-200 missile when big ally aircraft was within the range. If anything that was exactly how Ukraine downed civilian aircraft over Black Sea in 2001 and they used exactly the S-200 missile. Frankly, I am not very much concerned about Israel behavior, they are not Russian allies and they are officially at war with Syria. So blaming Israeli on failing to secure Russian personnel is futile. But the [mis]performance of SAA AD crew - if the story reported by Russian MoD is true - is saddening and alarming.

> What about Israeli EW-capabilities? Are Israeli F-16s now equipped with systems that allow them to fool Russian & Syrian radars and EW systems to the point where they can fly and approach a highly hostile area literally *undisturbed*,

If so, then they "showed their hand" prematurely for a questionable limited reward.
They spoiled their top secret then, if that was so.

> Shouldn't Russia lodge an official complaint and demand explanations from Paris?

Maybe. But there would be no point in reading Paris's explanation. If it will even come. Remind me, did Paris answered to Russian enquiry about Skripals affair misinvestigation?

jason , Sep 19, 2018 11:28:25 AM | link
no one has mentioned the domestic audience in israel.

the few friends in israel that i talked to and their military "happiness" level is on par with some of the US military folks morale back home. near suicidal sadly. the truth is the more the media and these trolls spin it as some kind of "smart" move by upvoting and jerking themselves off mutually like homos...really has not gained an ounce of approval in their own citizen's hearts, who are tired of war.

this is asides from the traitors within israel themselves drowning from the innocent blood they spill justifying it as some kind of revenge for the yom kippur and early state wars that they know is irrelevant. these little cunts sound like some nerds giggling about murder. their excuse like the nazi's will be "it was just orders"........ ironic. a lot of my jewish friends are great friends to me so i prefer not to paint the entire country with a broad stroke of stereotype.

the younger generation constantly booze themselves and drug themselves to erase the faked reality of being told they are doing good for their countrymen. it is a battle of the subconscious for their own souls and spirit and they are losing it daily. they are preparing for the big war with hezbollah (secretly in their hearts) which they know will not be as easily done as what their media paints it to be. pray for these innocents. from hearing about their grandfathers actually fighting off the entire neighborhood into patrolling the entire neighborhood to their own detriment. they are even losing faith in their God because of these traitors.

some would sell you this as a smart move to force putin to show his cards, but again putin is too sharp to overreact. the more insults the more certain putin is that he made the right move. he has russia's interests in his mind. and making such impulsive moves will destabilize the progress the economy of Russia has going for itself. it must be frustrating, i am sure these nerds are hoping that Putin grows too old quickly.

[Sep 19, 2018] Guardian journos are proclaiming themselves the bastion of free speech, when in reality they are the enemies of it.

Sep 19, 2018 | thesaker.is

I gave up on the Guardian's comment site myself, 10 years ago, as the censorship on there made it pointless. Has something changed?

There was one prolific commenter there, MrPikeBishop, who was so popular, he was even commissioned to write articles above the line. Then one day, bam, he is banned, and his entire posting history gone. That did it for me; little emperors not fit to clean his boots, just rubbed him out. I spat on the site that day and never went back. Proclaiming themselves the bastion of free speech, when they actually the enemies of it.

Actually, I was caught out here in the UK, by the demise of the old five pound note, and then the ten pound note, because I stopped reading and watching MSM years ago. It's worth it, to get their irritating buzzing out of my head.

Back to the linked Guardian article; this is indeed interesting – these questions asked by the journalist:

– Who really did shoot down this plane? Was it an accident or did France and/or Israel attack?
– Are Russia publicly accepting a false narrative to avoid having to retaliate?
– Do they even understand how close we're coming to global war, whenever a NATO country operates in Syria?
– How long can we rely on Russian common sense to avoid WWIII?

[Sep 19, 2018] Russia accused Israel earlier of a hostile provocation in striking the Syrian port city of Latakia, which led to the downing of a Russian military plane with 15 servicemen on board

Notable quotes:
"... Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu informed his Israeli counterpart, Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman, that Moscow holds Israel wholly to blame for the shooting down of a Russian military plane near Syria. ..."
"... The Russian Defense Ministry said a recovery operation in the Mediterranean Sea is underway and that it has already located the wreckage in the sea and has retrieved some bodies and some fragments of the plane. ..."
"... "At the same time Russian air control radar systems detected rocket launches from the French frigate Auvergne which was located in that region." ..."
Sep 19, 2018 | www.haaretz.com

Haaretz

Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Tuesday that Israel was not responsible for the downing of a Russian military aircraft during a strike on Syria Monday night. "It looks like a chain of tragic circumstances, because the Israeli plane didn't shoot down our jet," he said.

Putin's comments were a shift in tone after Russia accused Israel earlier of a "hostile provocation" in striking the Syrian port city of Latakia, which led to the downing of a Russian military plane with 15 servicemen on board.

When asked about comparisons to Turkey's downing of a Russian aircraft in 2015, Putin said: "This is a different situation. The Turkish fighter jet knowingly downed our plane."

The Russian president noted that the Defense Ministry's statement, vowing a retaliatory response, was "fully coordinated" with him. "The retaliatory measures will be directed above all to boosting the security of military men and installations in Syria," he said. "These will be measures everyone will see."

Infographic of Monday night's alleged attack and incident

Infographic of Monday night's alleged attack and incident Russian Defense Ministry

In the call with Putin, Netanyahu stressed the importance of continuing the security coordination with Russia, which he said has saved many lives on both sides over the past three years. He offered to send Russia all necessary details in order to investigate the incident, including dispatching the Israel Air Force chief to Moscow.

Shortly later, the Kremlin said Putin told Netanyahu that agreements reached between Russia and Israel regarding the prevention of dangerous incidents "were not observed." The statement added that Putin asked Netanyahu to avoid such situations in the future.

The Kremlin's statement came after Russia's Foreign Ministry said Moscow told Israel it will take all necessary measures to protect its military personnel in Syria.

U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo also responded to the downing of the aircraft, expressing sorrow for the deaths of Russian aircrew members. Pompeo said that the incident "reminds us of the need to find permanent, peaceful and political resolutions to the many overlapping conflicts in the region." He added that the incident brings to light "the danger of tragic miscalculations in Syria's crowded theater of operations."

Pompeo did not mention Israel in his statement, but he did say that the downing of the aircraft "underlines the urgent need to resolve the Syrian conflict and to end Iran's provocative transit of dangerous weapon systems through Syria, which are a threat to the region."

'Irresponsible actions'

Earlier on Tuesday, Russia's Defense Ministry accused Israeli military planes of creating a "dangerous" situation in Latakia, near where the aircraft was downed by Syrian air defense systems, as it claimed Israel warned Moscow about the planned operation one minute beforehand, adding that it was not enough time to get the the plane to safety.

The Defense Ministry said 15 Russian military service people died because of Israel's "irresponsible actions," adding that it reserves the right to take appropriate measures after Israel's hostile actions.

According to the ministry, the Israeli F-16 jets carrying out the airstrikes used the Russian plane as a cover to allow them to approach their targets on the ground without being hit by Syrian anti-aircraft fire.

"Hiding behind the Russian aircraft, the Israeli pilots put it in the line of fire of Syrian anti-aircraft systems. As a result the Il-20 ... was shot down by the (Syrian) S-200 missile system," Konashenkov said.

He said the Israeli pilots "could not have failed to see the Russian aircraft, as it was coming in to land from a height of 5 km (three miles). Nevertheless, they deliberately carried out this provocation," Konashenkov said.

Israeli army spokesperson Brig. Gen. Ronen Manelis said in a statement that Israel "expresses sorrow for the death of the aircrew members of the Russian plane that was downed tonight due to Syrian anti-aircraft fire," adding that Israel holds the Assad regime fully responsible for the incident.

"Israel also holds Iran and the Hezbollah terror organization" for the event, said the statement. "Overnight, Israel Defense Forces fighter jets targeted a facility from which systems to manufacture accurate and lethal weapons were about to be transferred on behalf of Iran to Hezbollah in Lebanon."

Manelis said Israel and Russia have a deconfliction system that has proven itself effective many times in recent years, and that "this system was in use tonight as well."

An initial inquiry by IDF top brass and the prime minister's bureau, Manelis said, showed that extensive and inaccurate anti-aircraft fire by Syrian forces downed the Il-20.

"When the Syrian Army launched the missiles that hit the Russian plane, IAF jets were already within Israeli airspace," said the statement, adding the Ilyushin was not present in the area of the operation during the Israeli airstrike.

It also said Syrian anti-aircraft batteries fired indiscriminately, "and from what we understand, did not bother to ensure that no Russian planes were in the air."

The statement concluded by saying Israel will share all the relevant information with the Russian government as to confirm the facts of the inquiry. An Israeli political official later echoed these comments as well, adding that Putin and Netanyahu are expected to speak soon.

Israeli Ambassador to Russia Gary Koren was summoned to the Russian Foreign Ministry following the incident, according to Russian media, though the Israeli Foreign Ministry declined to comment.

Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu informed his Israeli counterpart, Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman, that Moscow holds Israel wholly to blame for the shooting down of a Russian military plane near Syria.

The Kremlin was extremely concerned by the incident and Putin expressed his condolences for those who were killed, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told reporters.

The Russian Defense Ministry said a recovery operation in the Mediterranean Sea is underway and that it has already located the wreckage in the sea and has retrieved some bodies and some fragments of the plane.

A U.S. official earlier said Washington believed the aircraft, which is an Il-20 turbo-prop plane used for electronic reconnaissance, was inadvertently shot down by anti-aircraft artillery operated by Moscow's ally, the Syrian government.

Around the time the plane disappeared, the Syrian coastal city of Latakia, near a Russian airbase to which the Il-20 was returning, came under attack from "enemy missiles" and missile defence batteries responded, Syrian state media reported.

The defense ministry in Moscow said the aircraft was returning to the Russian-run Hmeymim airbase in Latakia province when, at about 11 P.M. Moscow time (20:00 GMT), it disappeared from radar screens.

The plane was over the Mediterranean Sea about 35 km (20 miles) from the Syrian coastline, Russia's TASS news agency quoted the ministry as saying in a statement.

"The trace of the Il-20 on flight control radars disappeared during an attack by four Israeli F-16 jets on Syrian facilities in Latakia province," the statement was quoted as saying.

"At the same time Russian air control radar systems detected rocket launches from the French frigate Auvergne which was located in that region."

The fate of the 14 people on board the missing plane is unknown, and a rescue operation has been organized out of the Hmeymim base, the ministry said.

The Israeli military had no reaction, saying it does not comment on "foreign reports." French military spokesman Colonel Patrik Steiger told Reuters. "We deny any involvement."

A series of unusual airstrikes on Syria were attributed to Israel on Monday night. The official SANA news agency reported that ten people were injured in the attack, eight of whom were shortly discharged after being admitted to a nearby hospital.

According to Syrian media, missiles were fired toward military targets close to three large cities in the north of Syria: Lattakia, Homs and Hama.

In recent weeks there has been a significant uptick in the amount of reports attributing attacks to Israel. Previous attacks, according to foreign media, mostly targeted the area of the Damascus International Airport .

file:///F:/Private_html/Skeptics/Political_skeptic/Neocolonialism/War_is_racket/Syria_war/Israeli_strikes2

[Sep 19, 2018] Sergei Shoigu stated that the blame for the downed Russian aircraft and the death of the crew lies entirely on the Israeli side

Sep 19, 2018 | iz.ru

According to several sources of "Izvestia" familiar with the situation, despite the bad weather, on that day (thunderstorm, clouds, light rain, air temperature was 21 degrees) Israeli fighters had to visually observe the Il-20. At that time, the visibility was about 6 thousand meters, and the plane came to land with the lights on.

-- It is preliminary possible to say that the Israeli air force attacked a group on a single target, -- said the former commander of the 4th air army, air force and air defense Lieutenant-General Valery Gorbenko. - Went in a dense system at a distance of about 30-100 m from each other. Apparently, they approached the Il-20 at a distance of about 300-400 m and lined up in almost one line with respect to the shooting C-200. After the launches, the fighters performed an anti-missile maneuver with maximum overloads. The missile lost its target and re-aimed at our plane.

-- Group F-16 flew as close to the Russian aircraft, -- said the expert. - On the radar of air defense systems, all aircraft merged into one major goal. When the Syrian S-200 opened fire, the fighters received a warning about the missile attack and crumbled, and on the line of fire there was only less maneuverable and more noticeable Il-20.

The Russian Navy started search and rescue operation

As told "Izvestia" several informed sources in the Russian military Department, the first to the crash site Il-20 arrived boat "Raptor" with combat swimmers PDSS. These forces are part of the naval base in Tartus and are engaged in its protection against possible sabotage and terrorist acts. Earlier, the soldiers of the PDSS and the crews of the Raptors were also the first to find the wreckage of the su-30CM Syrian aerospace forces, which crashed in may this year.

[Sep 19, 2018] Sic Semper Tyrannis

Notable quotes:
"... Times of Israel ..."
"... Times of Israel ..."
Sep 19, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

All of the facts have yet to be known but the Russian Defense Ministry has little doubt: the Israelis created the conditions by which Syrian air defenses took down a Russian Il-20 electronic intelligence aircraft in the midst of an Israeli air strike on a Syrian Arab Army facility in Latakia between 10 PM and 11 PM local time Monday night.

Russian Defense Ministry spokesman Igor Konashenkov told reporters, this morning, that four Israeli F-16's used the Il-20 as cover to protect themselves from Syrian air defenses. "By using the Russian plane as a cover the Israeli air pilots made it vulnerable to Syrian air defense fire. As a result, the Ilyushin-20, its reflective surface being far greater than that of F-16, was downed by a missile launched with the S-200 system," Konashenkov said. The Israeli planes deliberately created a dangerous situation for surface ships and aircraft in that area, he stated. "The bombing raid was near the French frigate The Auvergne and in close proximity to the Ilyushin-20 plane of Russia's Aerospace Force that was about to land," Konashenkov said. The Russians had initially said that they had detected missiles fired from the Auvergne, but by daybreak had stopped saying that, and the French have denied involvement.

After Konashenkov's press briefing Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu issued a very strong statement vowing a Russian response. "We have informed today our Israeli colleagues, and I have also informed personally the Israeli Defense Minister [Avigdor Lieberman], that such actions will not be left unanswered by us," Shoigu said . "Our reconnaissance airplane Il-20 with 15 crew members on board" which had been collecting intelligence on jihadi drone operations in Idlib, "was in the strike zone, strictly speaking between Israel's aircraft - four F-16 planes - and Syrian territory," he said. "The Israeli side didn't issue a notification or, to be more precise, they warned us a minute before conducting the strike," he said. "They told us they were about to attack facilities on the Syrian territory, and they did it." Putin later said during a joint press conference with the prime minister of Hungary that he signed off on Shoigu's statement. "No doubt we should seriously look into this," he said .

The IDF then took the unusual step of issuing a statement, at mid-day, admitting that they were responsible for the air strike and expressing sorrow for the loss of the 15 crew members aboard the Il-20. However, they blamed Damascus, Hezbollah and Iran for the shoot down, reports the Times of Israel . According to the IDF, the target of the Monday night strike was a Syrian military facility that manufactured "accurate and lethal weapons," which were "about to be transferred, on behalf of Iran, to Hezbollah in Lebanon." The military said its initial investigation found that "the Syrian anti-air batteries fired indiscriminately and, from what we understand, did not bother to ensure that no Russian planes were in the air." the Russians will know whether or not any of this is true by their own radar data and their close working relationship with the Syrian air defense units.

In any case, it doesn't appear that Vladimir Putin was convinced b y the Israeli explanation though he did make a point, during his press conference, of differentiating this incident from the shoot down of a Russian Su-24 bomber by Turkish F-16's in November of 2016. According to the Kremlin readout of a phone conversation that Putin had with Netanyahu the Israeli prime minister promised to provide detailed information on the activities of the Israeli Air Force over Syrian territory on that day, which will be delivered soon to Moscow by the Israeli Air Force commander. Putin, in turn, "noted that operations of this nature by the Israeli Air Force are in violation of Syria's sovereignty. In this particular case, Russian-Israeli agreements on preventing dangerous incidents had not been observed either, and that resulted in the Russian aircraft coming under Syrian air defence fire. The Russian President called on the Israeli side to prevent such incidents in the future."

Israeli commentary on this incident takes note that the deaths of Russian service members in the context of an Israeli attack on the Syrian military has jacked up tensions between Tel Aviv and Moscow. "Israel has warned that Iranian forces must leave Syria. At the same time Jerusalem has good relations with Russia and Moscow has indicated it respects Israel's concerns about Iranian involvement in Syria," wrote Seth Frantzman at the conclusion of a conclusion in the Jerusalem Post . "This delicate balance now is at risk of changing after Latakia. The death of Russian servicemen cannot be ignored by Moscow and Russia shows that it doesn't want to accept that this was a terrible mistake, but rather seeing the airstrikes as endangering Russian lives." Avi Issacharoff, writing in the Times of Israel , also notes that the Israeli strike occurred in an area that had more or less heretofore off limits to the Israeli military, primarily because of the large presence of the Russian military in the area. Russia's Hmeimim air base lies only 18 km to the south of Latakia city. Russia's Tartous naval base is further down the coast, about 65 km, but the Russian navy also uses the port of Latakia as a secondary base. Israeli air strikes in this area clearly increase the risk to Russian service members deployed to these locations and this is not tolerable to the Russians.

Posted at 06:17 PM in Israel , Russia , Syria , Willy B | Permalink | 14 Comments

[Sep 19, 2018] Russia blames Israel after Syria kills 15 in Il-20 plane in air battle

Sep 19, 2018 | www.businessinsider.com

Russia said its Il-20 went down about 35 kilometers from the Syrian coast at about 11 p.m. local time, during the heat of the battle.

Russian media said that four Israeli F-16s carried out the attack and that Israel gave just one minute's warning to Russia, which maintains large military bases in the region.

"The Israeli pilots used the Russian plane as cover and set it up to be targeted by the Syrian air-defense forces," Russian media reported the Russian Defense Ministry as saying. "As a consequence, the Il-20, which has radar cross section much larger than the F-16, was shot down by an S-200 system missile."

"As a result of the irresponsible actions of the Israeli military, 15 Russian service personnel perished. This absolutely does not correspond to the spirit of Russian-Israeli partnership," the Russian Defense Ministry spokesman Igor Konashenkov told Russian state media, Reuters noted.

[Sep 19, 2018] The Shoot Down of the Russian IL-20 Who's Responsible

Notable quotes:
"... Times of Israel ..."
"... Times of Israel ..."
Sep 19, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

All of the facts have yet to be known but the Russian Defense Ministry has little doubt: the Israelis created the conditions by which Syrian air defenses took down a Russian Il-20 electronic intelligence aircraft in the midst of an Israeli air strike on a Syrian Arab Army facility in Latakia between 10 PM and 11 PM local time Monday night.

Russian Defense Ministry spokesman Igor Konashenkov told reporters, this morning, that four Israeli F-16's used the Il-20 as cover to protect themselves from Syrian air defenses. "By using the Russian plane as a cover the Israeli air pilots made it vulnerable to Syrian air defense fire. As a result, the Ilyushin-20, its reflective surface being far greater than that of F-16, was downed by a missile launched with the S-200 system," Konashenkov said. The Israeli planes deliberately created a dangerous situation for surface ships and aircraft in that area, he stated. "The bombing raid was near the French frigate The Auvergne and in close proximity to the Ilyushin-20 plane of Russia's Aerospace Force that was about to land," Konashenkov said. The Russians had initially said that they had detected missiles fired from the Auvergne, but by daybreak had stopped saying that, and the French have denied involvement.

After Konashenkov's press briefing Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu issued a very strong statement vowing a Russian response. "We have informed today our Israeli colleagues, and I have also informed personally the Israeli Defense Minister [Avigdor Lieberman], that such actions will not be left unanswered by us," Shoigu said . "Our reconnaissance airplane Il-20 with 15 crew members on board" which had been collecting intelligence on jihadi drone operations in Idlib, "was in the strike zone, strictly speaking between Israel's aircraft - four F-16 planes - and Syrian territory," he said. "The Israeli side didn't issue a notification or, to be more precise, they warned us a minute before conducting the strike," he said. "They told us they were about to attack facilities on the Syrian territory, and they did it." Putin later said during a joint press conference with the prime minister of Hungary that he signed off on Shoigu's statement. "No doubt we should seriously look into this," he said .

The IDF then took the unusual step of issuing a statement, at mid-day, admitting that they were responsible for the air strike and expressing sorrow for the loss of the 15 crew members aboard the Il-20. However, they blamed Damascus, Hezbollah and Iran for the shoot down, reports the Times of Israel . According to the IDF, the target of the Monday night strike was a Syrian military facility that manufactured "accurate and lethal weapons," which were "about to be transferred, on behalf of Iran, to Hezbollah in Lebanon." The military said its initial investigation found that "the Syrian anti-air batteries fired indiscriminately and, from what we understand, did not bother to ensure that no Russian planes were in the air." the Russians will know whether or not any of this is true by their own radar data and their close working relationship with the Syrian air defense units.

In any case, it doesn't appear that Vladimir Putin was convinced b y the Israeli explanation though he did make a point, during his press conference, of differentiating this incident from the shoot down of a Russian Su-24 bomber by Turkish F-16's in November of 2016. According to the Kremlin readout of a phone conversation that Putin had with Netanyahu the Israeli prime minister promised to provide detailed information on the activities of the Israeli Air Force over Syrian territory on that day, which will be delivered soon to Moscow by the Israeli Air Force commander. Putin, in turn, "noted that operations of this nature by the Israeli Air Force are in violation of Syria's sovereignty. In this particular case, Russian-Israeli agreements on preventing dangerous incidents had not been observed either, and that resulted in the Russian aircraft coming under Syrian air defence fire. The Russian President called on the Israeli side to prevent such incidents in the future."

Israeli commentary on this incident takes note that the deaths of Russian service members in the context of an Israeli attack on the Syrian military has jacked up tensions between Tel Aviv and Moscow. "Israel has warned that Iranian forces must leave Syria. At the same time Jerusalem has good relations with Russia and Moscow has indicated it respects Israel's concerns about Iranian involvement in Syria," wrote Seth Frantzman at the conclusion of a conclusion in the Jerusalem Post . "This delicate balance now is at risk of changing after Latakia. The death of Russian servicemen cannot be ignored by Moscow and Russia shows that it doesn't want to accept that this was a terrible mistake, but rather seeing the airstrikes as endangering Russian lives." Avi Issacharoff, writing in the Times of Israel , also notes that the Israeli strike occurred in an area that had more or less heretofore off limits to the Israeli military, primarily because of the large presence of the Russian military in the area. Russia's Hmeimim air base lies only 18 km to the south of Latakia city. Russia's Tartous naval base is further down the coast, about 65 km, but the Russian navy also uses the port of Latakia as a secondary base. Israeli air strikes in this area clearly increase the risk to Russian service members deployed to these locations and this is not tolerable to the Russians.

Posted at 06:17 PM in Israel , Russia , Syria , Willy B | Permalink | 14 Comments

[Sep 19, 2018] Putin Absolves Israel Over Syria Strike, but Crisis With Moscow Reaches All the Way to Tehran

Sep 19, 2018 | www.haaretz.com

Monday's incident near Latakia, in which 15 Russian soldiers were killed in a downed plane, might see Russia toughen its stance toward Israel and curtail the air force's freedom of action in Syria

Sep 19, 2018 11:28 AM "You always have to remember the first lesson in military history: Don't mess with the Russians," a senior officer in the Israel Defense Forces said on Monday – without realizing how prophetic his words were.

[Sep 19, 2018] Israeli actions leading to destruction on Il-20 look preplanned opration

Sep 19, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

Bill Herschel -> Pat Lang , an hour ago

And one might be right. On the other hand, there is a timeline of the Israeli F-16's actions that resulted in the downing of the IL-20 in Izvestia. It was completely intentional. Premeditated murder. The planes were within several hundred meters of each other. The Israeli's set up the IL-20 knowing beforehand it would be destroyed.

I would not want to be the pilot of the next Israeli plane that attacks Lebanon. Avoiding being hit by Syrian air defense by murdering Russian servicemen is heavy baggage to carry.

Oh, and the Israeli Army? Well, they have nothing to fear, because they will never see combat again. Strictly joint maneuvers with the KSA.

And Trump? Emasculated internationally. Unless you count Fort Trump in Poland. Oh, wait...

https://iz.ru/790550/kirill...

FB , 3 hours ago
There is a lot that doesn't make sense about the downing of this Russian spy plane...some have pointed to the presence of the French frigate and the fact that Russian sensors detected it firing missiles...the Israeli F16s as the author notes happened to be sailing missiles right over the Russians' heads in Latakia, which previously has not happened...the area being considered off-limits due to the Russian flag there...

All of this happens at precisely the moment in time when Putin and Erdogan produce a very significant agreement on Idlib, that de-militarized zone of 15 to 20 km along the entire periphery of Idlib...looking at a map that amounts to easily half the territory of the province...taking half of Idlib without firing a shot is actually a pretty big win...

One can see how various elements of the global borg would be quite unhappy about that...they had been using Erdog as a cat's paw on Idlib up to now, but he finally realized that he can't keep dancing on the head of a pin forever...he needs Russian gas, nuclear power and military hardware...and he needs Chinese investment and financial help...both China and Russia are 100 percent resolved that those thousands of Russian and Chinese headchoppers in Idlib have to go...

PRC90 , 13 hours ago
The question of a passive homing SAM navigating it's way to the largest radar cross section within it's arc, and not to the smaller returns from alleged nearby strike aircraft was raised in relation to MH17. If this occurred here then IAF casual reliance on a misplaced belief in the competence of the SAA air defences may be a tenuous way to blame Israel.

However, Russian EW data hoovered up during the attack may show another story.

Another obvious question is the 'one minute' warning time given by IAF. The Russians would have been aware of the ingressing F16's and probably their actual takeoff's but did not clear their own IL-20 aircraft out of the airspace ahead of them, possibly indicating that an IAF presence was a regular and normal event not necessarily resulting in strikes. What is on IAF / US EW data as intercepted Russian voice and data link material may show the details of that - not that anything but the cherry picks will ever be released.

[Sep 19, 2018] The recon plane was lost due to gross incompetence or sabotage by the commanders overseeing the Syria operation. For sure, they knew that Israeli jets were activated. Proper procedure requires defenseless assets to be protected. So orders should have been given to scramble Russian jets from Khmeimim.

Sep 19, 2018 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com
Kirill, September 19, 2018 at 5:30 am

All the yammering about Putin by the resident Finn is moronic. The recon plane was lost due to gross incompetence or sabotage by the commanders overseeing the Syria operation. For sure, they knew that Israeli jets were activated. Proper procedure requires defenseless assets to be protected. So orders should have been given to scramble Russian jets from Khmeimim. This would have prevented the Israeli ploy and all the discussion about why friendly fire happened would not be taking place.

The real test for Putin is if he can fire the Russian clowns responsible for this fiasco and even have them charged with criminal negligence if not treason.

Moscow Exile September 19, 2018 at 5:42 am

There's a criminal investigation into the incident that is now under way at the MoD.

I saw a report earlier today about this. Lost the source since.

[Sep 19, 2018] I'd like to see Russia take a harder line

Notable quotes:
"... n this particular case, Russian-Israeli agreements on preventing dangerous incidents had not been observed either, and that resulted in the Russian aircraft coming under Syrian air defence fire. The Russian President called on the Israeli side to prevent such incidents in the future. ..."
"... But before you get too admiring of the heavy hand of America and its reputation for taking no shit from nobody, review the USS LIBERTY incident. Israel continued to pour everything it had into sinking the LIBERTY with all hands and without a trace, right up until a radio call from a nearby Carrier Task Group announced it was sending aid, at which point Israeli forces broke off the attack, announced it had been a terrible mistake, and tried to offer assistance, which was angrily refused. ..."
Sep 19, 2018 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

James lake September 18, 2018 at 10:13 pm

Netanyahu phone call to Putin..

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/58589
The Israeli Prime Minister expressed his condolences over the death of the 15 servicemen aboard the Il-20 aircraft shot down in Syria on September 17. With respect to a thorough investigation, Benjamin Netanyahu promised to provide detailed information on the activities of the Israeli Air Force over Syrian territory on that day, which will be delivered soon to Moscow by the Israeli Air Force commander.

Vladimir Putin noted that operations of this nature by the Israeli Air Force are in violation of Syria's sovereignty. In this particular case, Russian-Israeli agreements on preventing dangerous incidents had not been observed either, and that resulted in the Russian aircraft coming under Syrian air defence fire. The Russian President called on the Israeli side to prevent such incidents in the future.

In other words Israel don't do it again. My prediction that nothing would be done is proved correct.

Didn't take long for excuses to be made for Israel – after what they did to your own people.

Mark Chapman September 19, 2018 at 9:06 am
Maybe they should just shoot the Israeli Air Force Commander as soon as he steps off the plane. Or better still, shoot down his plane with him on it as soon as he enters Russian airspace!

You're not wrong, and I'd like to see Russia take a harder line with those Israeli yobbos, since continuing to do things the civilized way merely assures them they are the masters of dirty tricks and innocent faces.

But before you get too admiring of the heavy hand of America and its reputation for taking no shit from nobody, review the USS LIBERTY incident. Israel continued to pour everything it had into sinking the LIBERTY with all hands and without a trace, right up until a radio call from a nearby Carrier Task Group announced it was sending aid, at which point Israeli forces broke off the attack, announced it had been a terrible mistake, and tried to offer assistance, which was angrily refused.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ussliberty.html

Israel murdered 34 American servicemen that day, and would have killed everyone on board and in all probability blamed the disappearance on the Arabs, except for the surprising durability of the ship despite tremendous damage. And the American government's verdict, against overwhelming evidence to the contrary, was that Israel had simply made a mistake. It's notable here that Israel's excuse was it had mistaken LIBERTY for a decommissioned Egyptian horse-carrier. Even if that were true, would it have been worth the combined might of the Israeli navy and air force to sink an Egyptian horse-carrier? What would be the tactical triumph in that?

[Sep 18, 2018] Russia blames Israel for the shooting down of her EW aircraft

Israeli actions in Syria were reckless and dangerous. As well as their support of headchoppers. Revenge is a dish better served cold. also the question is why Syria air forces fire a rocket in the vicinity of the Russian plane. Are they so stupid that they did not understand possible consciences?
Notable quotes:
"... Basically, 4 Israeli aircraft were sent on a bombing mission against targets near the Russian facilities in Khmeimim and Tartus (which, by itself, is both stupid and irresponsible). The Israelis *deliberately* did not warn the Russians until less than a minute before the attack took place ..."
"... Typical Israeli "cleverness". ..."
"... the Israeli jet didn't down our aircraft ..."
"... tragic circumstances ..."
"... Perhaps Russian defense systems will now operate in conjunction with Syrian ones as it appears that nothing defended Latakia from IDF and French Nato frigate clearly bent on illegal hostile intent ..."
"... I don't believe in the power of "Fifth column" because Putin could rally the people. But it's wrong to lie and say: "When people are dying – especially under such circumstances – it is always a tragedy," President Putin said during a joint press conference with Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban in Moscow on Tuesday. ..."
"... Correct Assessment that there are powerful 5th column(s) in Russia. Would be a huge surprise if Russia does anything. I kind of think that this could be partly a punishment for Russia to cut a deal with Turkey in Idlib, by one of the oligarchic powers. Syria is defacto divided in three as we speak. ..."
"... I think there are more than meets the eye or what official statements are saying. Could be another provocation, as with no military operation in Idlib, the fake gas attack is out of the door at this moment. Definitely not a minor event or an innocent mistake. Could also be forcing Putin to choose sides in between competing oligarchic powers. Need to wait more and see further developments. ..."
"... Yes, Israeli F-16's used the four engine reconnaissance aircraft to hide from Syrian radar, and old trick, used before. The Syrians therefore shot down the Russian plane by mistake, as images of the smaller Israeli planes were obscured by the larger image of the Russian plane on Syrian radar. ..."
"... This was an Israeli provocation, instigated after Putin met with Erdogan. Yes, some sort of deal was reached regarding Idlib, but I don't see this deal lasting too long. It suits neither the US nor Israel, especially when both, in conjunction with others, were preparing a new false flag attack against Assad. In fact this deal suites nobody. ..."
"... "The Israelis have been very clever". In what way ? By informing Russia less than one minute that they were going to attack ? When did Russia agree that Israel could use Russian reconnaissance aircraft as a cover to launch attacks against Syria ? ..."
"... I am a devout fan of Putin and his wisdom/strategy, but I'm starting to reconsider and frankly tired of seeing Russia taking so many punches from sanctions, Israeli incursions and direct military threats and not sending a strong message to the aggressors. ..."
"... If the lifes of 15 Russian military are not important enough for Putin or Shoigu to act and take active measures to secure airspace around Syria or a direct retaliation to honor their lifes, I'm afraid even the most loyal Putin supporters are going to have a difficult time stomaching these events or his lack of decisive and swift action in the matter. ..."
"... What Israel did was a provocation, provoking Russia into taking aggressive action against it. It did not work. However, Israel better not pull this trick again. ..."
"... I just checked some MSM near me. Not a line about this tragedy! My guess: they are not mentioning this "incident" and then they will start the oy vey! when the Russians will strike back. ..."
"... Yes, they are all hoping Russia will strike back and be pronounced the "aggressor". After that the MSM will apply full thrust, with more anti-Russian propaganda, this time accusing Russia of attacking little Israel. Putin will not fall for such cheap provocations. ..."
"... This doesn't make sense. The Russians along with their allies, Syria, Iran and Hezbollah are fighting the takfiris in Syria. The Israelis are supporting some of the takfiris by providing them with war material, medical support and air cover including bombing Russian allies. ..."
"... Basically, the Russians should declare the any future Israeli illegal aggression will be considered an act of war, and will be met with force against the Israeli source of that aggression, be it based on land, sea or in the air. ..."
"... "There was an agreement between Israel and Russia that the actions of Israel in Syria's airspace would not endanger lives of Russian troops. Israel breached this commitment What happens next will depend on the position of Israel. Most likely, Israel will no longer be able to enjoy the same freedom in the sky of Syria as it did before the incident," Kedmi said. ..."
"... The Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) earlier in the day that Israel would share all information on the incident with Moscow. The IDF expressed regret over the deaths of the Russian troops and put the blame on Damascus and Tehran. ..."
"... "Israel's attack in itself, regardless of the consequences, was an irresponsible step, because there is not a single facility on the territory of Syria that might have been used by Iran and whose destruction would have justified an attack on it, which could endanger the Russian troops," Kedmi said." ..."
"... In other words, this conflict between Russia and Israel will be managed "sub rosa" and not be allowed to disturb the "cordial" relations between the two countries. Sometimes military matters have to be subordinate to diplomatic relations. ..."
"... It just goes to show how prophetic PCR's words are. He warned that the provocations and pressure would continue and get worse until Russia either capitulated or hit back. What I do not understand is what did Putin expect after Russia pulled Assad's chestnuts out the fire. APPEASEMENT never has and never will work. ..."
"... Yup. A Russian made missile shot down a Russian plane killing Russians fired by Syria and Russian fleet and Latakian forces appears to have done nothing in defense of illegal hostile intent by IDF and France. ..."
"... The large scale political consequences of this incident are beyond measure and represent a great set back for Russia. The weak, almost apologetic response of the Russians disheartens its allies and supporters. ..."
"... Wasn't the Il-20 supposed to see the Israelis coming? If so, why didn't react? This was not a passenger plane. Something is fishy here! ..."
"... What is the statute of limitations for retaliation? If an Israeli plane mysteriously goes down a week from now, would that be a better or worse response than launching an attack today? ..."
Sep 18, 2018 | thesaker.is

­ Basically, 4 Israeli aircraft were sent on a bombing mission against targets near the Russian facilities in Khmeimim and Tartus (which, by itself, is both stupid and irresponsible). The Israelis *deliberately* did not warn the Russians until less than a minute before the attack took place, thus the Russians did not have the time to tell the crew of the Il-20 electronic warfare aircraft, which was on approach for a landing, to take evasive action. When the Syrian S-200 fired their missiles to intercept the incoming missiles, the Israelis F-16 used the Il-20, which has a much bigger radar cross section, to hide themselves resulting in the loss of 15 lives and one aircraft.

Typical Israeli "cleverness".

The Russian MoD placed the full blame on the Israelis and declared that this attack was "dastardly", the Israeli actions as "hostile" and said that Russia "reserves the right" to respond with "adequate counter-actions".

This is one of these rare opportunities when there is, I believe, a viable and logical option to respond: tell the Israelis that from now on any of their aircraft approaching anywhere near the Russian forces will be shot down.

Will the Russians do that?

I doubt it. Why? Because of the very powerful pro-Zionist 5th column in Russia.

I am pretty sure that the Russian military would love to take such an measure but, unfortunately, they are limited in their actions by the 5th columnists in the Russian government.

We shall see. If Russia does nothing, it will be interesting to see how those who deny the existence of a pro-Zionist 5th column in Russia will explain this.

The Saker

PS: the only positive effect from this tragedy is that this will go a long way to trash the image of Israel in the Russian public opinion (which is constantly subjected to pro-Zionist propaganda in much of the Russian media).

UPDATE1 : there we go: Putin is already "downgrading" the gravity of what happened. He has just declared that " the Israeli jet didn't down our aircraft " and spoke of " tragic circumstances ". True, he did add that the Russians will take measures that "everyone will notice" but I am personally dubious about these "steps". I hope that I am wrong. We will find out soon.

UPDATE2 : I am watching the Russian media and I have to report that Zionist propagandists (Russian liberals and Jewish commentators) look absolutely *terrible*: they are desperately trying to blame everybody (the Syrians, Hezbollah, and even the Russians) except for Israel. This will not sit well with the Russian public.

Anonymous on September 18, 2018 , · at 11:22 am EST/EDT

Defense chief vows response to Israel's actions that caused fatal crash of Il-20 aircraft

Military & Defense September 18, 17:06

"MOSCOW, September 18. /TASS/. Russia will respond to actions on behalf of the Israeli Air Force that led to a fatal crash of Russia's Il-20 aircraft on Monday late night in Syria, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said on Tuesday."

"We have informed today our Israeli colleagues, and I have also informed personally the Israeli Defense Minister [Avigdor Lieberman], that such actions will not be left unanswered by us," Shoigu said.

More:
http://tass.com/defense/1022123

Can Russia "Ends" the "Partnership" with "Colleagues" like Israel?

Time will tell.

JJ on September 18, 2018 , · at 11:27 am EST/EDT
"According to the IDF, the Israeli jets were targeting a facility in Syria which contained "systems to manufacture accurate and lethal weapons" that could be sent "on behalf of Iran" to Hezbollah movement in Lebanon. Israel, as well as many other states, considers the movement a terrorist organization."..

Yeah ..just like Mossad targeting for assassination the missile scientist trying to protect Syria no more invitations to Moscow parades ..perhaps.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/06/world/middleeast/syrian-rocket-scientist-mossad-assassination.html

Perhaps Russian defense systems will now operate in conjunction with Syrian ones as it appears that nothing defended Latakia from IDF and French Nato frigate clearly bent on illegal hostile intent. SAA alone defending by sending missiles over the sea to IDF jets themselves which seems to me to be further than before and rather than the missiles they sent. I wonder if French Ambassador will be asked to attend MFA ..

American Patriot on September 18, 2018 , · at 11:28 am EST/EDT
I don't believe in the power of "Fifth column" because Putin could rally the people. But it's wrong to lie and say: "When people are dying – especially under such circumstances – it is always a tragedy," President Putin said during a joint press conference with Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban in Moscow on Tuesday.

Responding to a reporter's question as to whether the incident in Latakia could be compared to the downing of the Russian Su-24 by Turkey in 2015, Putin said the two situations were "different." Ankara "deliberately downed" the Russian jet, he explained, while the Il-20 incident "looks like a chain of tragic circumstances, because the Israeli plane didn't shoot down our jet."

That's complete bullshit. We all know it. He contradicts Soigu and his own M.O.D.

However, Russia will improve defenses. If he doesn't implement a no fly zone for Israel, his behavior is suspect.

Matthiew on September 18, 2018 , · at 11:31 am EST/EDT
Correct Assessment that there are powerful 5th column(s) in Russia. Would be a huge surprise if Russia does anything. I kind of think that this could be partly a punishment for Russia to cut a deal with Turkey in Idlib, by one of the oligarchic powers. Syria is defacto divided in three as we speak.

This agreement made sure that Turkey and Russia owns Idlib (north of Syria), while US-Israel owns east of Euphrates. There are rumors that France was sending some missiles in that direction (from Russian MoD). France is City of London and they are not particularly happy with what is going on in Syria after Obama.

I think there are more than meets the eye or what official statements are saying. Could be another provocation, as with no military operation in Idlib, the fake gas attack is out of the door at this moment. Definitely not a minor event or an innocent mistake. Could also be forcing Putin to choose sides in between competing oligarchic powers. Need to wait more and see further developments.

B.F. on September 18, 2018 , · at 11:45 am EST/EDT
Yes, Israeli F-16's used the four engine reconnaissance aircraft to hide from Syrian radar, and old trick, used before. The Syrians therefore shot down the Russian plane by mistake, as images of the smaller Israeli planes were obscured by the larger image of the Russian plane on Syrian radar.

I have to disagree with The Saker that Russia will not respond against Israel because of the "powerful" pro-Zionist 5th column in Russia. Is it really that powerful, bearing in mind Russians cannot forget the Yeltsin years ? And what can this Zionist 5th column do overtly in Russia, if it wanted to do anything ?

This was an Israeli provocation, instigated after Putin met with Erdogan. Yes, some sort of deal was reached regarding Idlib, but I don't see this deal lasting too long. It suits neither the US nor Israel, especially when both, in conjunction with others, were preparing a new false flag attack against Assad. In fact this deal suites nobody.

Yes, Russia will respond, but in a subtle way. Israel would just love Russia to respond "aggressively", so that it could then scream for American help, and thus setting up Russia against the US. It is in the US that Israel has it's Zionist Occupation Government, not in Russia. If it did have such a government in Russia, then Russia would never have recovered as it did during Putin's years.

jiri on September 18, 2018 , · at 12:15 pm EST/EDT
The Israelis have been very clever. They have kept to the letter of their agreement with the Russians even though the Russians argue that they have not kept to its spirit.
B.F. on September 18, 2018 , · at 12:51 pm EST/EDT
jiri

"The Israelis have been very clever". In what way ? By informing Russia less than one minute that they were going to attack ? When did Russia agree that Israel could use Russian reconnaissance aircraft as a cover to launch attacks against Syria ?

Andre on September 18, 2018 , · at 11:48 am EST/EDT
I am a devout fan of Putin and his wisdom/strategy, but I'm starting to reconsider and frankly tired of seeing Russia taking so many punches from sanctions, Israeli incursions and direct military threats and not sending a strong message to the aggressors.

If the lifes of 15 Russian military are not important enough for Putin or Shoigu to act and take active measures to secure airspace around Syria or a direct retaliation to honor their lifes, I'm afraid even the most loyal Putin supporters are going to have a difficult time stomaching these events or his lack of decisive and swift action in the matter.

B.F. on September 18, 2018 , · at 12:07 pm EST/EDT
Andre

You are mistaken in your reasoning. How many provocations has Putin endured so far ? He responded in a wise, subtle way. Yes, sanctions were introduced against Russia. For Russia this was the best thing that could have happened to it, as It concentrated on rebuilding it's infrastructure, industry and agriculture and producing record harvests.

Putin is making patient and intelligent chess moves of the chess board. He will not fall for cheap provocations, which have caused both Israel and the US immense political and media damage.

What Israel did was a provocation, provoking Russia into taking aggressive action against it. It did not work. However, Israel better not pull this trick again.

Occasional Poster on September 18, 2018 , · at 12:32 pm EST/EDT
I usually like your posts BF, but 'Israel better not pull this trick again,' is really going to stop them laughing their butts off, and slapping each other on the back in Tel Aviv.

And the converse in the Russian military; I can't think of a better way to crush their morale than to let this pass. They will be angry, and wonder for whom they are actually putting their lives on the line, and why.

B.F. on September 18, 2018 , · at 12:47 pm EST/EDT
Occasional Poster

You have a point. The Russian military are going to be very angry about this incident. They would love a response. So would Israel. After that Israel would scream for US help, backed by it's huge lobby in the US. However, as I have already written, Putin will not fall for such provocations.

Littlejohn on September 18, 2018 , · at 12:23 pm EST/EDT
I agree with you 110 percent. Everybody who has ever been beaten up by a playground bully knows that the bullying never stops and in fact keeps getting worse until the bully is punched in the face. My love and condolences to the families of the lost Russian servicemen.
Wind of Siberia on September 18, 2018 , · at 12:30 pm EST/EDT
Putin will not put at risk the project of ensuring Russia's new place in the world. Not even for 15 lives.

The overall project and maintaining course takes priority. This is why Putin has to play the game of trying to avoid direct war with the Americans and their vassal states – regardless of the provocations.

Occasional Poster on September 18, 2018 , · at 12:50 pm EST/EDT
@ Wind of Siberia,

'regardless the provocations.' How many Russian lives is that then? 100? 1000? Half of Donbass?

The ZATO gargoyles that Russia has to deal with, are masters of brinkmanship, and ultimately, safe behind their own nuclear shield. They will keep pushing till they encounter something that actually changes the game.

Waly on September 18, 2018 , · at 11:49 am EST/EDT
I just checked some MSM near me. Not a line about this tragedy! My guess: they are not mentioning this "incident" and then they will start the oy vey! when the Russians will strike back.
B.F. on September 18, 2018 , · at 12:15 pm EST/EDT
Waly

Yes, they are all hoping Russia will strike back and be pronounced the "aggressor". After that the MSM will apply full thrust, with more anti-Russian propaganda, this time accusing Russia of attacking little Israel. Putin will not fall for such cheap provocations.

However, what will happen will be a subtle response. Next time Israel attacks Syria over Syrian territory, it's planes will start falling over Syrian territory, something it will need to explain. So far it has attacked Syria either firing missiles from Israel, or from Lebanon, using both to protect it's aircraft. Occasionally it has gone in depth over Syrian territory. I have a feeling that rules of engagement are now going to be changed.

jiri on September 18, 2018 , · at 11:52 am EST/EDT
This doesn't make sense. The Russians along with their allies, Syria, Iran and Hezbollah are fighting the takfiris in Syria. The Israelis are supporting some of the takfiris by providing them with war material, medical support and air cover including bombing Russian allies.

The Russians have an agreement with the Israelis that it is OK for them to bomb Russian allies as long as Russians men and material are not hit. The Israelis will just have to inform the Russians so that the Russians can get out of the way, and presumably not tell the Syrians or Hezbollah or Iranians that they are going to be hit by the Israelis.

The Russians tell the Syrians (and the Iranians and Hezbollah??) that it is OK for them to retaliate against Israel by shooting at their planes or missiles with an air defense system that is integrated with the Russian air defense system. This only makes sense if the Russians want the Syrians to fire at the Israelis but not hit them.

With such an arrangement is it any surprise that the Russians lost a plane? I would say it was only a matter of time before it happened.

hardlooker on September 18, 2018 , · at 11:53 am EST/EDT
As RT reports, President Putin has characterized this event as resulting from "tragic circumstances".

1) Would not such a view appear to contradict that expressed within the MoD representations?
2) If 1 is true, will there not arise a deleterious effect on the credibility of the President, the military, or both?
3) If 2 is true, for hostile media purposes, is there not apparent incoherence, or at least inconsistency, within the overall "Russian" position (which would be a novel, highly exploitable weakness)?
4) If 3 is true (asking of those who understand the Russian people), what might be the effect on "civilian" Russian thinking, feeling, and attitudes?

Anonymous on September 18, 2018 , · at 12:03 pm EST/EDT
To answer your last question, I can speak only for myself: if Putin can't do anything with regards to this latests slap in his face by his 'partner' (who was there on 9th May to celebrate my ancestors victory), I withdraw all support for him. Why do we have to put up with everything that's thrown out way, if we can't win, or now most likely not willing to win anyway?!
B.F. on September 18, 2018 , · at 12:19 pm EST/EDT
Anonymous

And what would you like Putin to do ? Attack Israel, which would then scream for US help ? When you fight a war, the intention is to win the war, not battles. Strategy comes first in importance, tactics come second.

Anonymous on September 18, 2018 , · at 12:50 pm EST/EDT
BF
Not talking about attacking Israel here.

To start – Deliver S300, S400 to Syria asap. This should minimise potential repeat of last nights events.

Enforce no-fly zone and aid Syrian forces to get better in what they doing, potentially operating defences together to start with.
But if the response is what I heard today, then submit to Zionism, and let us adapt to the realities and find our way within. Because he clearly doesn't want to do anything or simply can't. Why do I have to be subjected to humiliation all the time for being Russian? Why my nephew (soon approaching military service age) would have to take part in this madness? What for? So that Putin can keep on turning the other cheek?! Thanks, but no thanks! Not worth it.

What's astonishing is how many 'supporters' he has among Saker community abroad, most of the Westerners commenting and discussing what Putin and Russians should do from the comfort of the Zionist protectorates, and no one is fighting it, no one! But Russians are expected to?!

StealthRaptor on September 18, 2018 , · at 11:59 am EST/EDT
I do not understand why we even warn the Russians if we are going to bomb them? Makes no sense, We should bomb the s-400 sites and the airfields they have. We could rearm the idlib rebels and send them on an attack on Latakia while Israel, US, France, and UK all strike Russian AD. We should get these guys out of this region. We should help Ukraine as well, their economy doing well with US dollars and also cleanse the Donbass of them. Then do the good ol regime change on em. We toppled all their allies at this point, Turks stronger but they still in Nato so we are doing a pretty good job and managing and organizing global governance I think.
Blue on September 18, 2018 , · at 12:46 pm EST/EDT
"We should bomb the S-400 sites and the airfields they have." Now there is a death wish for you. Let's overtly trigger WW3. The US and Israel and do everything they can to suck Russia into committing an obvious act of aggression against them, so they can be blamed for starting the fireworks, and this time with clear evidence that it is so.

The US and Israel are committing their aggression in such a way that they can plausibly deny that they intended it – it was an accident, they say. They will continue to there provocations until they draw the desired response from Russia, or Syria.

Basically, the Russians should declare the any future Israeli illegal aggression will be considered an act of war, and will be met with force against the Israeli source of that aggression, be it based on land, sea or in the air.

Then proceed accordingly. No more free aggression for Israel.

Anonymous on September 18, 2018 , · at 12:04 pm EST/EDT
A real shame:

Putin to Powers Attacking Syria: Please Keep Getting my Soldiers Killed, I Won't Do Anything About It

Putin declines to even just chastise Israel for the loss of the Russian Il-20 and 15 crew in the midst of IDFs wholly illegal and unprovoked attack on sovereign Syria. Unlike the military the Russian president blames it all on "a chain of tragic accidents"

https://russia-insider.com/en/putin-powers-attacking-syria-please-keep-getting-my-soldiers-killed-i-wont-do-anything-about-it#.W6EJJXxP1e8.facebook

vot tak on September 18, 2018 , · at 12:22 pm EST/EDT
Interesting take from an israeli. Israel Unlikely to Fly Freely Over Syria After Il-20 Incident – Ex-Official

https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201809181068132500-israel-syria-il-20-incident-airspace/

"Israel is unlikely to freely use Syrian airspace in the wake of the crash of a Russian Il-20 military aircraft over the Mediterranean Sea, Yakov Kedmi, a former high-ranking Israeli intelligence official, told Sputnik.

"There was an agreement between Israel and Russia that the actions of Israel in Syria's airspace would not endanger lives of Russian troops. Israel breached this commitment What happens next will depend on the position of Israel. Most likely, Israel will no longer be able to enjoy the same freedom in the sky of Syria as it did before the incident," Kedmi said.

The Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) earlier in the day that Israel would share all information on the incident with Moscow. The IDF expressed regret over the deaths of the Russian troops and put the blame on Damascus and Tehran.

"Israel's attack in itself, regardless of the consequences, was an irresponsible step, because there is not a single facility on the territory of Syria that might have been used by Iran and whose destruction would have justified an attack on it, which could endanger the Russian troops," Kedmi said."

Richard Steven Hack on September 18, 2018 , · at 12:23 pm EST/EDT
More likely what will happen is that the next Israeli attack will be met by the Syrian military with a barrage of missiles coordinated by the Russians, resulting in the shootdown of one or more Israeli aircraft. The Israelis will know who was behind it and will be forced to reconsider their attacks on "Iranians" in Syria.

Russia can do this because it has surveillance aircraft up – this one will be replaced and escorted by fighters next time – and it will know when Israel launches all its aircraft. Israel doesn't have to "inform Russia" because Russia already knows when and where Israeli aircraft are in the vicinity – unless Israel can somehow "cloak" their approach.

In other words, this conflict between Russia and Israel will be managed "sub rosa" and not be allowed to disturb the "cordial" relations between the two countries. Sometimes military matters have to be subordinate to diplomatic relations.

Johnnie Q on September 18, 2018 , · at 12:26 pm EST/EDT
It just goes to show how prophetic PCR's words are. He warned that the provocations and pressure would continue and get worse until Russia either capitulated or hit back. What I do not understand is what did Putin expect after Russia pulled Assad's chestnuts out the fire. APPEASEMENT never has and never will work.

I understand both Martynov's and Saker's points on this but, again, PCR is correct. This will get to a point were Russia either lays down the law with concrete actions or has to surrender. I see no other options in the long term, though short term Putin could keep trying to play the game, as the Neo-Con West will keep doubling down.

JJ on September 18, 2018 , · at 1:02 pm EST/EDT
Yup. A Russian made missile shot down a Russian plane killing Russians fired by Syria and Russian fleet and Latakian forces appears to have done nothing in defense of illegal hostile intent by IDF and France. I do not think Iran is going to be to happy with this. Did they hint they might assist Syria in regaining Golan heights? Because Iran is still being targeted. With Russia "aware" of this ..but doing what for or with Iran ?
JJ on September 18, 2018 , · at 12:41 pm EST/EDT
" On Netanyahu's personal request Russia had stopped the delivery of original Russian S-300 long range air-defense missiles to the Syrian military. These would have been less likely to veer off towards the wrong target. In consequence an Iranian 747 was damaged and 15 Russian soldiers were killed. Netanyahu can forget about any further such "favors" from Moscow.

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2018/september/18/israel-provocation-kills-russian-soldiers-moscow-will-take-political-revenge

Robert McMaster on September 18, 2018 , · at 12:41 pm EST/EDT
The large scale political consequences of this incident are beyond measure and represent a great set back for Russia. The weak, almost apologetic response of the Russians disheartens its allies and supporters. Russia has todied after Isreal – to its shame – and now appears powerless against the results. Failing to arm the Syrians tells other partners what they can expect. And just plain military incompetence on the field inspires doubt that the Russia military are really any good.

Its hard to imagine how the fall out could be any worse. If that was an American or British plane, those nations would have acted decisively and firmly. But Russia is an empty bag of wind.

Anonymous on September 18, 2018 , · at 12:48 pm EST/EDT
Wasn't the Il-20 supposed to see the Israelis coming? If so, why didn't react? This was not a passenger plane. Something is fishy here!
Timothy Hagious on September 18, 2018 , · at 12:56 pm EST/EDT
I can think of several things to consider:

1) There was a substantial amount of time between the incident and the time official statements were made. Undoubtedly there was a bunch of negotiation and deliberation. We have no way of knowing what was agreed upon and for whose benefit the agreements were made.

2) If they truly wanted to appease Israel, why admit to the incident at all? Militaries cover up unflattering incidents all the time. Remember how the witnesses of the bin Laden raid died a month later in a different country? Or the Pentagon's claim back in April about how all the missiles hit their targets, despite clear video evidence to the contrary.

3) What is the statute of limitations for retaliation? If an Israeli plane mysteriously goes down a week from now, would that be a better or worse response than launching an attack today?

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