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[Aug 30, 2015] The Guardian view on the latest Ukraine ceasefire call: why this could be the one that works

"...This is not good journalism, nor objective, perceptive, informed reporting. It's hogwash- and from the Guardian!!! An effete, ignorant, vague, prejudiced, white washing survey of no value what so ever. "
"...The same old story on behalf of Washington DC."
"...It's just the Graun beating the drums of war on behalf of NATO...again."
"...The Guardian view on the latest Ukraine ceasefire call: why this could be the one that works... So there will be some enforcement on the West Ukrainians to observe it at last and curb the neonazi types?"
"...This article assumes wrongly that Russia and Putin are to blame when quite the opposite is true .

This all occurred due to the EU very aggressive expansionist policy in the Ukraine, Russia's backyard encouraged by a under funded sabre rattling Nato which has all gone horribly wrong .

Eastern Russian Ukrainian separatists have every right to self determination as do people in the Falkland islands or in Scotland and Gibraltar and yet not Ukrainian Russians ?? Why not !

The EU cannot afford to bail out Greece, never mind the Ukraine and costs are mounting daily .The EU is tilting imperially at windmills

Many people in the UK EU do not support their governments approach to Russia and cannot even understand it ,and see yet more double standards

The EU need desperately to get Russia back as a market particularly as China is starting to look wobbly any more talk of sanctions against Russia would be counter productive"

Aug 30, 2015 | The Guardian

Bosula -> Agrajag3k 30 Aug 2015 21:50

Russia's RTs budget is about a third of the amount that the US State Department spends of funding six state owned propaganda broadcasting services across the world.

At least one of these US state sponsored propaganda networks has a formal agreement with the Guardian to run their pro US stories on a regular basis (see stories by RFE, for example).

Does this help you understand that propaganda is complex. It not just a Russian game, if that is really what you thought.

The Russians are the little kids on the block in this ongoing propaganda 'war'.

annamarinja -> JakeBrumby 30 Aug 2015 21:49

You mean, only FauxNews provide the truth and only truth?


Winifred Kiddle 30 Aug 2015 21:36

You're reading different stuff to what I read according to my sources Putin is the person who masterminded Minsk. And Porky is the dude who signed an agreement but never kept to it. Something about kids living in basements that's how we'll win this war Yada Yada Yada. Oh that's right the Guardian employs Shaun Walker. Enough said. Please, please get your facts right and stop hoodwinked your readers.

Bosula HollyOldDog 30 Aug 2015 21:36

A no brainer for me - seek the protection of a friendly neighbour who shares your culture and language.

The period following the unconstitutional February 2014 coup in Kiev was a dangerous and lawless period.

HauptmannGurski Beckow 30 Aug 2015 21:45

The winter, yes, it is very important in that region, nearby Stalingrad, now Volgograd, etc. That's why a ceasefire before winter has better chances than one before summer, e.g. February.

As far as these jokers with a German name (Tintenfische) are concerned who delight in the idea of a Russian crash, they really got no idea what they are talking about. Russians do not give in, see Leningrad siege. Russia has received shock therapy with these sanctions and they wll now ensure that never again will they be overly dependend on foreign sources of funds, or even cooperation.

As the saying goes, if you need a helping hand look at what you find at the end of your right arm. The cooperation after the 1991 collapse was a failure, looked like a good idea at the time. They are very conscious of needing to focus on their own minds and resources, instead of sugar hits from foreign creditors like Ukraine and Greece. And then there are these people who go full frontal against Putin - being totally oblivious that the Putins, Obamas, Bushes come and go. Anyone who's engaging in these primitive Putin attacks just displays a low IQ.

Economies are in dire straights everywhere, so why should Russia be an exception. There is no country now that isn't plagued by excessive borrowings and Russia is barred from excessive borrowing, good. At least they are free of prooping up Ukraine now. Lets see how the other side likes propping them up.

poopin4putin PaddyCannuck 30 Aug 2015 21:21

It is truly stomach-churning stuff. Especially since the rubble is gaining. it was 70+ to US dollar last week, but closed Friday at around 65. Its gaining. oh wait it was around 35 a year or so ago. sorry.

Beckow -> Rudeboy1 30 Aug 2015 21:21

Almost everything you wrote is wrong.

Only 20-25% of Russia's economy is oil, gas and energy. The price crash was in dollars, in rubles the prices are almost the same as a year ago. In Russia they use rubles...

Russia is increasing both its cash reserves and gold holdings, check Bloomberg.
Putin increased defense budget.

Russia's population has been growing since 2011, their birth rates are higher than almost all EU countries. You want to see real demographic disaster, try Latvia - down 25% in 15 years, or Estonia, Germany, Italy, Spain, Bulgaria... Plus Russia gets second largest number of immigrants after US in the world.

Why are you way off on all your facts? Are you Obama's speech writer? Or do you think this is 1998?

Parangaricurimicuaro -> jezzam 30 Aug 2015 21:20

Food production is one of the areas in the Russian economy that is starting to show results in this new government guided import substitution. So when a cheese producer in western Europe sees images of tons of cheese been bulldozed then I don't consider that they were laughing. The creation of markets is a process that takes time and effort.

nadodi 30 Aug 2015 21:00

The same old story on behalf of Washington DC.

PaddyCannuck 30 Aug 2015 20:55

It's really breathtaking how so many of our rabid Russia-haters just ooze schadenfreude when commenting on the imagined effects of western sanctions and other economic measures which they gleefully fantasise as reducing the lives of ordinary Russians to abject misery.

But then, when it comes to Russian seizure and destruction of contraband goods or one of the daily articles of how bad Russia and Putin are, they're suddenly full of loving concern and compassion for those same ordinary Russians, and inundate us with a deluge of crocodile tears. Truly stomach-churning stuff.


Vlad Cheprasov 30 Aug 2015 21:18

According to recent big buzz 2000 russian soldiers killed vs. about 1500 Ukrainian soldiers official stats claims.
That means that majority in East are russian soldiers vs. ukrainian
That means that majority captured POW should be russian soldiers
Considering Ukrianian side is more effective (2000 vs 1500) they must've got more POW's
Why they provided 12 lost souls in 2014 and just 4 this year ?
Separatist side handed back more than thousand Ukrainian POW (official Ukrainian sources claim)
Where are those thousands of Russian soldiers/mercenaries?
Every time they got couple guys all MSM headers are blown with a really BIG news.

Bosula -> Agrajag3k 30 Aug 2015 21:14

if it works for you - go for it as an 'ethnic Australian'.

All Slavs in this part of this part of world share the same genetic heritage - regardless of what country they come from. Certainly Russians and Ukrainians are the same people genetically and share much in common, whether they like it on not

HollyOldDog -> Bosula 30 Aug 2015 20:28

The rest of Ukraine was descending into chaos, what with police and demonstrators being shot and killed by unknown assalients from rooftops. Odessa , where 45 plus Ukrainian citizens were trapped in a building which was set fire to by outside football supporters, then shot at and clubbed when the citizens climbed out of the burning building seeking help. Would you risk yourself and your family in such a situation or would you seek the protection of a friendly power?


HollyOldDog -> GhengisMao 30 Aug 2015 21:00

That is just what Poroshenko is praying for as it would mean more money flowing into the coffers of Ukraine. ( thereby into his own as well). Yats - Americas own man said that Ukraine should be given around $2billion per year for 3 years ( last years request).

But it will never happen and Poroshenko will be ordered to live up to his obligations in respect to the Minsk2 agreement. I suggest he starts now as the gaze of the EU drifts to the far more serious problem of these migrants who don't carry identity papers entering the EU. terrorist fractions could be in their midst, so the EU has to be diligent. So Poroshenko either get your act together and fulfill your obligations or be sidelined, to sink or swim on your own.

EugeneGur -> jezzam 30 Aug 2015 20:28

With you, no evidence, hard or otherwise, is ever required. "Everyone knows", "nobody believes" - is good enough for you.

The alternative is to believe that a ragbag army of separatists in a region of three million people can overwhelm the regular army of a country with 45 million people on their own.

This is a good example of you reasoning. We Russians call such "facts" "dragged by the ears". You claim to know Russian - you should understand what I refer to.
First, it isn't clear what was more ragbag - the Kiev army or separatists. Just because it is called regular army doesn't mean they know how, or are willing, to fight. Second, the whole 45 millions didn't go to fight, did they? Kiev has trouble assembling decent number of soldiers even now - separatists don't. What a difference motivation makes.

HollyOldDog -> alpamysh 30 Aug 2015 20:19

Ah, I was right all along.
The West Always Speaks With Fase Tongue.
Middle East and African countries should keep their own council and keep the Western Wolves from the door.

HollyOldDog -> jezzam 30 Aug 2015 20:14

The West in terms of the European West, wants a federated Ukraine that is not at war with itself and where one part ,the West is not trying to destroy another part the East. In this context the West of Ukraine has become a liability to Europe by insisting that it requires advanced NATO. weapons to defeat its opponent in Eastern Ukraine. Any Russian involvement other than sending food convoys to East Ukraine is pure speculation and/or wishful thinking by a beleaguered President of Ukraine who cannot/will not hold meaningful discussions with the East of Ukraine. Ultimately it's the responsibility of President Poroshenko to resolve the troubles of Ukraine peacefully, by negotiating with East Ukraine. No IFS, No BUTS just do it, or Ukraine could be just left behind in the mounting migrant crisis. Poroshenko could volunteer his country to take several thousand Syrian Migrants , just to show that he has the true German minded spirit.

DomesticExtremist -> nnedjo 30 Aug 2015 20:10

It's just the Graun beating the drums of war on behalf of NATO...again.

nnedjo 30 Aug 2015 20:03

It is too soon to be confident but this time the economic and political pressures may be mounting on Vladimir Putin to make agreements that will stick
Why is it so difficult to understand that Putin would be the last one to want the continuation of this fratricidal war?

For comparison, imagine that civil war breaks out in the UK between the Scots and the English. In that case whether it would be necessary to take any special pressure on the British Prime Minister to stop such a war?

Chillskier -> jezzam 30 Aug 2015 20:00

Ensure that Ukraine does not go under economically and eventually becomes a fully functioning and prosperous liberal democracy.
It seems to be working pretty well..

NO it is not.
You need to talk to people who actually live there, it is a catastrophe


HollyOldDog -> truk10 30 Aug 2015 19:46

Ukraine should be wary of false friends who may lead then down a blind alley. Only today I watched a very interesting TV program that puts the continueing existance of Monsanto into serious doubt. The program was about wheat in terms of the future of Global Warming where presentment her patterns within seasons would vary widely. Is it the right course of action to choose types of GM wheat where seasonal rains would pop up at inconvenient times ( which a farmer would pay 'through the nose for') or to allow your wheats to choose the correct wheat for the growing conditions it encounters. Some of the Wheats on test where from the times of the ancient Egyptians while the oldest variety was around 9000 years old. Instead of gene splicing and growing micro cultures in a lab followed by years of field testing , perhaps we should just look what our ancestors did.

I know this is not exactly on topic but I am trying to suggest Not to believe the latest SPIN, just because it is new. NEW SPIN does not equal TRUTH. IF something looks to be too good to be true then it is too good to be true - Forbes, verify your stories before you publish.

EugeneGur 30 Aug 2015 19:45

Vladimir Putin laid all the blame on the Ukrainian government, while Kiev has been warning that Russia is readying for new offensives

There is no need to listen to what Putin says and even less to what Kiev says. The MinskII agreements consists of only 13 point, and it is quite easy to ascertain for anyone who is doing, or not doing, what. MinksII demands certain actions on the part of the Kiev government, including constitutional reform with specific provisions for Donbass and restoration of social payments. None of this has been carried out by Kiev, which should be obvious for anybody, because Kiev doesn't even bother to deny it. They openly say they haven't done any of this and not going to. So, what does it matter what anyone says?

This marks the deadline for the internationally recognized border to come back under Ukrainian government control. At the moment, however, the Russians maintain an exclusive grip.

Correction - LPR/LPR maintain the firm grip. They will continue doing so - they aren't suicidal, not at all. The control of the border was supposed to be ceded to Kiev after all other provision of MinskII have been implemented. That hasn't happened, so the border is and will remain in the DPR/LPD hands for the time being. Kiev concentrates on that border issue like it was all they noticed in MinskII - must the Guardian repeat the Kiev narrative verbatum?

President Putin's recent language may nevertheless indicate that he is looking for a way out of what may have turned into something of a military and political quagmire.

May I remind the geniuses at the Guardian that it was precisely President Putin who engineered both MinskI and MinskII? If Putin hadn't put pressure on Donbass, they would've agreed to any of this. They don't want to be in Ukraine, and Putins had to use all his influence to make them agree. However, even his authority won't be enough to convince them to go for MinskII. So, it' Kiev's last chance.

There is rumor Russia will soon start giving Russian passports to DPR/LPR citizens, and Donbass will soon be holding a referendum about joining Russia. There is a very, very probable scenario.

Yet the separatist forces are a disorderly group that have shown themselves incapable of carving out a territory that could be held sustainably.

Really? This "disorderly group" inflicted devastating defeat on the Kiev valiant army not once, not twice, but three times. No matter how often the West repeats it was the Russian army, they know full well it is not so. Every independent observes ever to visit Donbass stated that there is no Russian troops there.
"The territory isn't sustainable" - how surprising they aren't prospering under almost complete blockade and while being shelled daily. How sustainable is Kiev with all the Western help? Nearing default, I hear. And the utility bills are larger than average salaries now. Good job, people - keep it up.

I wonder whether the Guardian editorial board must make a fool if itself all the time every time.


nnedjo 30 Aug 2015 19:42

The head of the Ukrainian General Staff has admitted that 90% of intelligence they have received about the war in the southeast later turned out to be false. Which means only 10% of the information was true.:-)

And even more interesting/funny is a statement of the US Permanent Representative to NATO:

The US Permanent Representative to NATO, Douglas Lute, has admitted that his knowledge about the ongoing conflict in eastern Ukraine comes mostly from social networks rather than intelligence reports.

"We should all ask ourselves: why is it that we know so little really about what is going on in Donbass," the US ambassador to NATO told "Friends of Europe" forum in Brussels.

"I mean, frankly, I read more on social media about what is going on in the Donbass than I get from formal intelligence networks. This is because the networks don't exist today," Lute said.


TomFullery alpamysh 30 Aug 2015 19:05

I think you're getting confused with Americanswho are famous for their completely over the top indiscriminate use of firepower to "solve" a problem.

I remember a SWAT team managed to burn down a whole neighbourhood block a few years ago while trying to apprehend a burglar who was holed up in one of the apartments.


Beckow impartial12 30 Aug 2015 18:41

"Ukraine is important to the West because of its encroachment strategy against Russia"

The strategy is to somehow take over Russia by either having Yeltsin-like puppets in power again, or maybe by physically taking it apart (separatism). The "encroachment" is just the means to that end.

Russians had two choices when the coup happened in Kiev on the last day of the Sochi Olympics:

The West was surprised that Russia went for the second option and decided to fight. I think Russia decided that this was their best chance to resist, and that facts on the ground in Ukraine were in their favor. So far it has worked for Russia, thus the almost hysterical anger in the West.

nnedjo 30 Aug 2015 18:24

though there are victims almost every day and one report, not independently verified, suggests Russian deaths may have reached 2,000.

So, here we have an article on the question of war or peace in a such a large country such as Ukraine, and on a possible entry into a total war with its even larger neighbor Russia. And one such article refers to "a report that has not independently verified", or let's just say is not verified at all. One must admit that It is rather frivolous approach to one serious topic like this. That would be about the same as if someone would advise a man seriously ill from cancer to contact the nearest medicine man for a treatment.

And how this alleged report was created in the first time?
Thus, the Ukrainian website "New Region" ("Новый Регион") has published an alleged picture of a web page from Russian website, which even by its design does not correspond to the original site, because the right margin (only the right!) is painted in gray-blue color. In addition, they claim that the site from which they took picture "immediately was changed by Russian censors", and it now looks like this. Which means that only they [the Ukrainians] are in possession of incriminating secret information about the number of the killed Russian soldiers, and we probably need to trust them on this.

What else is interesting about this?

Except that the Ukrainians were the first and only ones to notice "the self-incriminating" Russian webpage, their, therefore, the Ukrainian webpage that talks about it first was noticed (probably quite by chance too) by the famous author of anti-Russian articles, and former friend of the assassin of US President Kennedy, Lee Harvey Oswald. Of course, when one such "celebrity" like Paul Roderick Gregory publish one such "sensation" against Russia, and yet it is written in Forbes, it is then quickly spread all over the internet and finaly ends up here on the Guardian.

The only thing the Guardian "forgot" to specify that, in addition to 2000 killed, the "alleged-by the Ukrainians seen only-report" also mentions the 3200 wounded Russian soldiers on the Ukrainian front. Thus, on a total of 5200 Russian troops casualties, there are only 10 Russian soldiers who were captured in Ukraine(we read about it also in the Guardian, a year ago). An amazing proportion, you must admit!


Agrajag3k Bosula 30 Aug 2015 18:23

Most of Ukraine speaks Russian as a first or second language. This whole "ethnic Russian" nonsense is an invention of the Kremlin.

I speak English, share similar customs and very likely have distant relatives who live there, so from now on I'll call myself an "ethnic Australian". Is that how it works?


Andrew Nichols 30 Aug 2015 18:20

The Guardian view on the latest Ukraine ceasefire call: why this could be the one that works

So there will be some enforcement on the West Ukrainians to observe it at last and curb the neonazi types?

vr13vr Chirographer 30 Aug 2015 17:46

It wasn't a conflict between Russia and Ukraine. It was a conflict between Kiev and people of Crimea, unless you insist their opinion shouldn't matter at all. But you are right about Ukraine not being a NATO member and as such NATO should have never have gone into high gear and escalated its rhetoric over this.


dmitryfrommoscow gimmeshoes 30 Aug 2015 17:43

References to 'Euromaidan' sources cannot be accepted. What else can the Ukrainian Security Council say? Do you expect it to admit frankly that root-cause of the conflict in Donbass is found in their own imecilic far-right nationalism?


MaoChengJi 30 Aug 2015 18:13

That is not to say that Russia has given up on destabilising its neighbour, nor on trying to redraw Europe's security architecture to its advantage.

God, what a comedy... Russia is destabilising? Russia is "trying to redraw Europe's security architecture"?

You're trolling, admit it. I don't mind trolling myself, but not for annoying, bullying, and eventually cornering a nuclear power. Only idiots would do that.


Bosula Bob49 30 Aug 2015 18:10

What I can never understand is why three quarters of the Ukrainian army stationed in the Crimea joined the Russian army during or before the referendum?

No shots were fired?

How can this be an annexation?

We are talking about something like ten thousand troops here - close to a third to half of the fighting force of the Australian army.

Would half the Australian army voluntarily join the army of a foreign country If they tried to 'annex' Australia?

Could they take over Australia, my home, without firing a shot?

I don't think so.

We may not be able to defeat a large annexing force from Asia but we would at least fire our guns and put up a fight.

We certainly wouldn't 'party' hard about the annexation and vote to join the invading country - yet this is what occurred in the Crimea.

What is going on here?


Beckow dmitryfrommoscow 30 Aug 2015 18:06

Why does it matter who is doing the fighting? I am amused by the legalistic obsession with whose uniform someone wears before they go off to die. It is a distraction - there is a war there. What matters is who wins, not what "regular unit" they belong to. Clearly enough people on both sides feel strongly enough about it to risk their lives.

The only relevant military fact is that Russians said they will not let Donbass be overrun. Since nobody thinks that Kiev (or Kiev+...) can actually defeat Russia, that kind of puts an end to all military uncertainty.

This will be decided based on economy and how people feel about their living standards in a few years. If Ukraine is prosperous, inside EU (or close by), jobs are plentiful and incomes high, Donbass cannot and will not stay separate. Hell, even Crimeans might have second thoughts. On the hand, if Ukraine stays poor as it is today - or gets worse - than Donbass separatism will be the least of Kiev's problems.

Based on the reality we can all see, it is much more likely that we are about to see the second scenario. Fighting just postpones the inevitable and fogs up what is really going on - collapse of Ukraine's economy and living standards....


Beckow Tintenfische 30 Aug 2015 17:55

Stay sober. Russia's economy is down 4%, that's not "go down in flames". E.g. EU economy dropped 6-9% after '09, and people are ok, kind of.

The real issue is with the Ukrainian economy and living standards. Russia's per capita income this year is 10 times higher than Ukraine's. That's very substantial, that's why about 3 million Ukrainians work in Russia and more are coming each month.

The West tried to crash Russian economy ahead of the inevitable Ukrainian collapse, and it failed. So now the death-watch for the Ukraine's economy has started: default on loans, catastrophic drop in living standards and incomes, millions trying to emigrate, and energy dependency on Russia that might turn out to be fatal if there is a cold winter in Europe.

vr13vr CedricH 30 Aug 2015 17:55

Yeah, I can imagine Russians being jealous of Ukrainians. The economy is collapsing, the inflation is 40%, the far is going on, the armed Right Sector people are walking in the center of the city, the opposition leaders are suppressed and the actions are taking against the media that disagrees with Kiev. And while all of this, the corruption remains exactly where it used to be. Darn, the entire world is jealous of those lucky Ukrainians.

Beckow Tintenfische 30 Aug 2015 17:47

"it denies the Ukrainian people any sort of agency what so ever and at the same time ignores that the elections within the Ukraine have not been called free or fair for a generation"

I wrote 'assisted in an overthrow' - do you get the meaning of the verb "to assist"? Assisting in an overthrow of an elected president is by any definition illegal and unconstitutional - all else that followed has to be examined in that light.

Elections in Ukraine have been free and fair and declared so by EU itself many times. Yanukovitch won fair and square. Russian speakers (or supporters) used to get roughly 50% of the vote, sometimes more, sometimes little bit less. Their party - Party of Regions - was outlawed. So maybe they are listened to, but in a very constrained way - they are certainly not equal to the Western Ukrainians. That's why some of them started a civil war.

You don't address any of the disastrous economic consequences of Maidan and the war: Ukraine is suffering and is much worse off than two years ago. There is no economic prosperity possible in Ukraine without Russian cooperation (energy, imports, food, investments). That is a reality that cannot be wished away. Unless Ukraine adjusts to being a poor, agrarian country, that exports millions of workers, with living standards maybe like in Albania or Tunis (at best), they will have to make peace with Russia and its own Russian leaning population. There is no other way, even Germany and France have officially told Kiev that much. Only US nutcases don't care about economy or living standards and prefer to play geo-political games with Ukrainians...

SHappens -> Agrajag3k 30 Aug 2015 17:42

Ukraine can prosper perfectly well on its own, just like any other county under the right leadership.

which they dont have. On the other hand when a big part of the country doesnt want to align with the "West" they should be heard. That's what is called democracy

Bosula 30 Aug 2015 17:41

'The Minsk agreement will also come under further international scrutiny as the end of the year nears. This marks the deadline for the internationally recognised border to come back under Ukrainian government control.'

This editorial is a little like a snake - slides all over place and slithers around facts.

This is no mention of Minsk agreement preconditions for the border to come back under Ukrainian control.

This includes progress on constitutional reform and constructive negotiations with East Ukraine.

The editorial provides no assessment on progress on these important conditions.

Or don't they matter?

vr13vr -> alpamysh 30 Aug 2015 17:41

Kiev doesn't know what it wants. But you are right, why wouldn't Kiev leave Donbass and the entire region. That would stop all the tensions at once because I don't remember people from the East having any intend to go to the West Ukraine and bring the war there. Let Kiev stop the attempts and let the Donbass and Lugansk areas go and there will be peace.

vr13vr -> Bosula 30 Aug 2015 17:38

And they should leave them alone.

Falloe7 CedricH 30 Aug 2015 17:30

The Guardian news about 2000 Russians dead is out of date as Forbes news who printed it were found out to be a Load of Rubbish and made up. By load of Idiots by the sound of it who Forbes news believed Just goes to show you cannot believe all you read now can you

Bosula Nick Gresham 30 Aug 2015 17:30

The US is though - and war is good for the US economy.

pfbulmer 30 Aug 2015 17:27

This article assumes wrongly that Russia and Putin are to blame when quite the opposite is true .

This all occurred due to the EU very aggressive expansionist policy in the Ukraine, Russia's backyard encouraged by a under funded sabre rattling Nato which has all gone horribly wrong .

Eastern Russian Ukrainian separatists have every right to self determination as do people in the Falkland islands or in Scotland and Gibraltar and yet not Ukrainian Russians ?? Why not !

The EU cannot afford to bail out Greece, never mind the Ukraine and costs are mounting daily .The EU is tilting imperially at windmills

Many people in the UK EU do not support their governments approach to Russia and cannot even understand it ,and see yet more double standards

The EU need desperately to get Russia back as a market particularly as China is starting to look wobbly any more talk of sanctions against Russia would be counter productive


Beckow Tintenfische 30 Aug 2015 17:13

There is a difference between selling arms and funding rebellions that overthrow governments. US actually physically invaded Iraq.

US and EU assisted in an overthrow of the elected president in Ukraine. That's why we have the mess in Ukraine. If the democratic process was followed and all groups were listened to - including Russian speaking half of Ukraine - we would not have this disaster. And it is a disaster.


Beckow Tintenfische 30 Aug 2015 17:13

There is a difference between selling arms and funding rebellions that overthrow governments. US actually physically invaded Iraq.

US and EU assisted in an overthrow of the elected president in Ukraine. That's why we have the mess in Ukraine. If the democratic process was followed and all groups were listened to - including Russian speaking half of Ukraine - we would not have this disaster. And it is a disaster.


careforukraine 30 Aug 2015 16:47

The truth is that the west has realized that trying to continue on the same path is futile.
The public have grown tired of hearing false stories abouy russian aggression and more and more stories about nazism in kiev are becoming apparent.
Both these facts make it hard for the US to gain support from their own public.
Now its in the US best interests to cut ties with poroshenko.......and this is why poroshenko was reprimanded by merkel and hollande at the last meeting.
The has lost the stomach to continue


BastaYa72 alpamysh 30 Aug 2015 16:33

Moreover, a country with the agricultural resources of Ukraine

Land that has long since been signed over to Monsanto and DuPont as part payment for earlier loans. Ukraine's economy is in such a state that's it's obvious that it will form the next major refugee crisis, while Svoboda and Privvy Sector will almost certainly launch a coup to over-throw the Kiev government.

Iraq, Libya, Ukraine - you can pretty much guarantee that wherever the West intervenes or interferes, chaos and destruction is pretty much 'nailed-on'.


Laurence Johnson 30 Aug 2015 16:12

5

6

Thousands of Ukrainian far-right supporters have rallied in the Kiev's Independence Square calling for a referendum that would impeach the country's president Petro Poroshenko.

The peaceful rally held by the Right Sector movement saw thousands of people converge in the centre of Kiev on 21 July, waving Right Sector and Ukrainian flags and chanting "Glory to Ukraine".

Report


vr13vr psygone 30 Aug 2015 16:11

11

12

Russia does not need options on Ukraine. Frankly, it doesn't care so much about Ukraine any more. All it needs to do is to keep this status quo in the East Ukraine, supporting Donbass and Lugansk. It will keep Kiev and Washington unhappy but little they could do about it.

It is Kiev who has no options to recapture the control of the region in face of local opposition there and it is Kiev that is looking for grace saving exit.

Report


vr13vr 30 Aug 2015 16:09

Clueless. The "low intensity" fight continues, but it's evident that the chances of Kiev to establish full control of the area are non-existent, and it is Kiev who is looking for a grace saving exit at this point.

And as for West "helping Ukraine" by cutting down the debt by 20%, this is the freshest interpretation of the event I've ever heard. It wasn't done to "help" Ukraine. The West agreed to do so to avoid even messier and costlier option of default and loosing even more money in Ukraine. Other than talking about giving some more loans to Ukraine in the future, the help to Ukraine from the West is now minimum.

BastaYa72 -> alpamysh 30 Aug 2015 16:33

Moreover, a country with the agricultural resources of Ukraine

Land that has long since been signed over to Monsanto and DuPont as part payment for earlier loans. Ukraine's economy is in such a state that's it's obvious that it will form the next major refugee crisis, while Svoboda and Privvy Sector will almost certainly launch a coup to over-throw the Kiev government.

Iraq, Libya, Ukraine - you can pretty much guarantee that wherever the West intervenes or interferes, chaos and destruction is pretty much 'nailed-on'.

Laurence Johnson -> Beckow 30 Aug 2015 16:05

You make some very sober points. Ukraine is indeed destined to be a wasteland similar to Libya and Syria. The scorch and burn policy of "if I cant have it, nobody can have it" is very clear.

I suspect that in twenty years time East Ukraine will be an economic miracle that engages with Asia via Russia. As for Kiev I suspect they will still be arguing about which Oligarch has the biggest pair of balls.

normankirk 30 Aug 2015 15:56

under the Minsk agreement, the border comes back under Ukrainian control, only when Ukraine has done the necessary constitutional reform that grants autonomy to the Donbas. So far, Kiev has dragged the chain , and to this day has refused dialogue with the leaders of the DPR and LPR.Poroshenko has openly boasted of using the ceasefire to build up another military assault on the eastern Ukrainians , and has vowed to reclaim all the terrItory by force.All this is in breach of the Minsk agreement Articles like this, with their bias and misinformation destroys the credibility of the guardian

This time the ceasefire may work because Merkel and Hollande have pressured Poroshenko, but I'm not holding my breath.

Parangaricurimicuaro 30 Aug 2015 15:45

I think that Europe is having to much on its plate. Terrorism problems, energy insecurity, bailing out Greece, refugees escaping wars south of the Mediterranean, aging population etc. so maybe it is most than they could possible chew. Reality is sobering everyone.


SHappens Agrajag3k 30 Aug 2015 15:36

Russia has no interest in seeing the war end or seeing Ukraine prosper.

Ukraine cannot prosper without Russia's market, that's an economic truth. Ukraine can even less prosper without the Donbass. The West must accept to share Ukraine with Russia. Federalization can make this possible and fulfill every country's ambitions and will, except for one country overseas, taking part to the events, we dont know why or do we?

Beckow 30 Aug 2015 15:26

Half-truths are by definition not truths. To say:

"deadline for the internationally recognised border to come back under Ukrainian government control"

Minsk also requires that Donbass has autonomy before border is turned over. How does one leave out the other side of the story? It is like reporting on Soviet Union conquest of Berlin in 1945 without mentioning that Germany invaded Russia in 1941. Maybe that's next in the endless search for just the right narrative where friends are friends, and enemies are, well the enemy is Russia, end of story. No need to actually be accurate. About Minsk or anything else.

Ukraine is bankrupt - negotiating to not pay back the full principal is the definition of a default. You can call it a "haircut" all you want, Ukraine has just defaulted - as in: they will not pay their full debts back. Who is going to invest there now? Other than EU taxpayers and IMF funny money men?

Time is definitely not on Ukraine's side: economy is down by 15-17%, inflation is 40-50%, incomes are dramatically down to roughly Senegal-Nepal level, the exports to Russia that Ukraine used to live off are down by more than 50% and dropping - and nothing is replacing the Russian market. With living standards are on sub-African level and with no visa-free access to EU, no investments (see the default above), and energy dependence on Russia, how can time be on Kiev's side? How are they going to grow out of it? What and to whom are they going to export? How is the per capita income going to grow? Today Ukraine income is 1/10 of Russia's per capita income (that's right 10%). How is time on Kiev's side?

West triggered an unnecessary catastrophe in Ukraine by assisting in an overthrow of an elected government. Ukraine is divided, look at all elections, look at language usage, etc... half is pro-West, half is pro-Russian. It is impossible to have a prosperous Ukraine without both having a say in running the country. So sooner or later, Ukraine will either go back to its traditional role as a buffer state, or it will break-up. There is no way one group can permanently dominate the other. And that takes us back to the Minsk treaty that specifies that Donbass gets autonomy. Maybe we should ask Kiev what happened to that part of the treaty. Why isn't it even mentioned?


impartial12 Tintenfische 30 Aug 2015 15:19

That is funny considering the amount of armaments building up among the former nations of the Soviet Union neighboring Russia. The escalation in Ukraine had started with an illegal coup of an elected government. And don't even get me started on the neo-Nazi tendencies of the new regime. It takes two to tango, and the West clearly wants to play this game no matter what negative consequences it may bring.


SHappens 30 Aug 2015 15:14

Kiev, backed by Washington who is using Ukrainian army foot soldiers, paramilitaries, foreign mercenaries, Nazi-infested death squads and others hasn't stopped since initiated back in April 2014. Kiev flagrantly violated the Geneva and two Minsk ceasefire agreements straightaway. Moreover Kiev has repeatedly refused to sit and talk with the people in the East and grant them autonomy as per Minsk.

Surely Russia supports the eastern ukrainians, rightly, in a way or another, preventing in this way a full war offensive by Kiev, however Russian's army is not present in Ukraine. President Putin wants peace and has been calling for it since the very start of the event, that is the ATO launched by Kiev back in 2014.

This is the Donbass who fights against Kiev. It is the US citizens who are forced to devote scarce resources to the dying puppet regime in Kiev (who will not avoid the country's default anyway + they have been downgraded), while Russia can stay away making peace proposals. If the US wants to put the fire, they will put it so it is necessary to be able to quickly turn it off to preserve what is most precious. That's why Putin considers peace of vital importance.

We can only guess who will be most effective - the US with their fuel container or the Russians with their fire extinguisher?

[Jun 22, 2015] EU extends sanctions against Russia as Ukraine conflict rumbles on

"... Cui bono?"
"...And Russia? I think it will still be there in a few years, with its resources and markets, its new-found anger against Western hypocrisy and new-found pride.
Great job, Madames Nuland and Merkel, and above all the esteemed Nobel Peace Price winner, you have delivered, you will be rewarded."
Jun 22, 2015 | The Guardian

Beckow 22 Jun 2015 20:26

Extending sanctions

The winners are US and its arms industry, comprador bourgeois in Kiev who will move West and will be well compensated, and China, Turkey, etc... who will gain huge business benefits in Russia.

The losers will be EU economy, but above all the Ukrainian common people.

And Russia? I think it will still be there in a few years, with its resources and markets, its new-found anger against Western hypocrisy and new-found pride.

Great job, Madames Nuland and Merkel, and above all the esteemed Nobel Peace Price winner, you have delivered, you will be rewarded.


HauptmannGurski sashasmirnoff 22 Jun 2015 21:28

Good post. I would like to add that the cut-off (from some international financial markets) is the best thing that could have happened to Russia. It is always better to do things with your own resources, even if that means a slower pace.

Russia is spared the fate of Greece where the loan sharks pushed the money onto them and now what? They only have to follow what the IMF and the EU tells them - and everything will be roses in Greece?

If the West is happy with the experiences in Argentina, Greece, and Ukraine (in the making) that's their problem.

Russia is spared the temptation to take the easy way out by accepting a loan and waking up with fleas.

HollyOldDog ID5589788 22 Jun 2015 21:25

All this is in the past just like Poland attacking Russia with the help of the Cossaks ( until the Cossaks switched sides - they were only regarded as useful barbarians by the Poles).
Now the Barbarian hordes ( butchers of the American 1st People's ) are resident in the USA and are trying to subjugate the Planet as their plaything. This Horde nation is trying to use the same strategy as the Old Polish empire by employing local European citizens to act as their Cannon Fodder against those who oppose them - like the Cossaks the new cannon fodder will turn against their masters. WE are waiting....

HauptmannGurski Chiselbeard 22 Jun 2015 21:20

Depends on the money. Ukraine needs a lot of money for many years to keep her afloat and that does not include modern (NATO compatible) weaponry which, like in Greece, would probably have to be supplied on credit. I have read the figure of 2 billion $ annually for about 20 years, but of course these things are not easy to verify. The debt forgiveness for Ukraine has not been going well; their Finance Minister (what's her name) has been travelling for weeks/months for new money and simultaneous debt cancellation - with zero result. Soros has urged the EU to provide the money.

When the money runs out, loyalties fade. Having said that, the activities of the rebels in E Ukraine are sheer lunacy. If they want to speak Russian maybe they should go to Russia. Why Russia is bothered with such a capricious people like the Ukrainians is really strange. It won't be that long until they can disconnect the gas pipe and be rid of this and other issues.

HollyOldDog ID5589788 22 Jun 2015 21:01

You are an idiot, Putin has nothing to gain by the USA selling more arms to the EU. I am happy to see that more senior Ukrainian officers joining the East Ukraine seperatists movement, junior officers will follow and probably taking their loyal men with them. Eventually only the most extreme Right Wing extremists will be left. What will happen then, will NATO forces attack and how would the world view this development? America, NATO and their puppets in the EU barely have a brain cell between them.

sashasmirnoff Omniscience 22 Jun 2015 20:59

Motivation! (necessity being the mother of invention, all that stuff)
I take no pleasure in conflict, adversarial positions, and I'm sure I'm in the vast majority. I hope (for the first time in recorded history) that one day the so-called democratic process will prevail, and that the aspirations of people rather than business interests will guide the relationship between States. Isn't idealism quaint?

Chiselbeard centerline 22 Jun 2015 20:46

You will note that the Russian economy is in recession. You will also note that, prior to their involvement in Ukraine, this was not the case. You can try to distract from the real damage resulting from Russia's aggression, but it sounds to me like a recent convict claiming "now I have time to catch up on my reading".

sashasmirnoff -> LiberalinCalif 22 Jun 2015 20:42

I see that the majority of anti-Russia posts are penned by (you guessed it) ...dumb-asses. If you could think clearly for a moment, you'd see that sanctions are actually a great impetus for diversifying the economy. Bankruptcy? I think that might be Ukraine, and your ilk will be holding the bag!

Any rain yet?

centerline 22 Jun 2015 20:34

I see Ukraine officials and military officers are starting to defect to the other side. Soon the trickle will become a flood and that will be the end of the US government in Kiev.

Humans creating sixth great extinction of animal species, say scientists

"...There's no way creative thinking and awareness can help unless humankind pulls together - cooperates. Given that those of a certain political persuasion (particularly in the U.S. but increasingly in Australia and everywhere else) have used a divide-and-conquer strategy, enlisting irrational members of all description, it is difficult to see us responding in a way proportionate to the crisis."

Study reveals rate of extinction for species in the 20th century has been up to 100 times higher than would have been normal without human impact

... ... ...

Previous studies have warned that the impact of humans taking land for buildings, farming and timber has been to make species extinct at speeds unprecedented in Earth's 4.5bn-year history.

Walsunda hmmm606 21 Jun 2015 22:49

"Africa especially being by far the fastest growing region population wise."

At 28 people per square kilometre, has a long way to go to catch up with Eurasia with 84 people per square kilometre. Where do you live?

Jeff Young -> SvenNorheim 20 Jun 2015 20:04

Agree Sven and one other thing. There's no way creative thinking and awareness can help unless humankind pulls together - cooperates. Given that those of a certain political persuasion (particularly in the U.S. but increasingly in Australia and everywhere else) have used a divide-and-conquer strategy, enlisting irrational members of all description, it is difficult to see us responding in a way proportionate to the crisis.

HelgiDu -> timotei 20 Jun 2015 13:04

Losing the climate of the polar regions redraws the biodiversity of the regions. Polar bears are one species. The nutrient rich waters of the cool polar summer support many, many more species all along the food chain (up to - and including- us).

The collapse of the Grand Banks off Canada could be surpassed (but with differing underlying reasons).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_Atlantic_northwest_cod_fishery

[May 17, 2015] Usage of missionaries for promoting color revolution

kirill, May 16, 2015 at 6:34 am

It is the Spanish conquista model. The missionaries were the foot soldiers of the invasion. The USA is using the same tricks against Ukrainians. Well, they deserve it.
Moscow Exile, May 16, 2015 at 7:45 am
I think the Ukraine has more Baptist congregations than there are in Russia, and there are plenty of them here. I have worked with a few Russian Baptists.

The Sky Pilot is in the Ukraine, in the "former Soviet Union" as he repeatedly says, and he is at a place where the leaders of Russian ministries have gathered, he says, "to talk about new crises that have taken place within their culture", such as HIV, which is rampant in what the speaker describes as "this Russian culture, predominantly".

That was in 2008.

Again from 2008:

Catch 'em young!

Warren, May 16, 2015 at 8:58 am
It makes sense for the US perspective the predominance of the Orthodox Church in Ukraine and Russia is an obstacle to US power. It is no coincidence the strongest support for the West and the most hostile towards Russia, is in Western Ukraine/Galicia. This can be attributed to the fact the people in Western Ukraine/Galicia are overwhelming Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic/Uniate.

By proselytizing Ukrainians, converting them from Orthodoxy to a Protestant denomination you can undermine and break the bonds Ukrainians have with Russia.

The next step is to change the Cyrillic alphabet to a Latin Alphabet, this will complete Ukraine Civilisation transformation and pivot from Eastern Orthodoxy to Western Europe.

Calls for Latinization of Ukrainian Alphabet On 'Civilizational Grounds' Anger Russians

http://www.interpretermag.com/calls-for-latinization-of-ukrainian-alphabet-on-civilizational-grounds-anger-russians/

Game plan for the West to permanent conquer Ukraine:

1. Replace Eastern Orthodoxy with Protestantism and Catholicism.
2. Replace the Cyrillic alphabet with the Latin alphabet.

cartman, May 16, 2015 at 9:20 am
Turchita is also a Baptist. (And Yats is a member of that other cult – Scientology.)

What evangelicals do cannot conceivably be called Christianity, though. Most worship chaos as a means of bringing about the end times.

PaulR, May 16, 2015 at 9:46 am
One of my Soviet room-mates in Minsk took me along to a Baptist service there, though I left before the end because it was very long (though not as long as the interminable Orthodox services). Anyway, the point is that the Baptists have been active in that part of the world for quite a while, even in Soviet times.
yalensis, May 16, 2015 at 12:05 pm
Russian diaspora in Western Massachussets area contains a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses.

They are fairly innocuous, as far as I can see; apolitical, for the most part.
Since I don't understand religion, I give them a pass.

Jen, May 16, 2015 at 5:42 pm
Hmm … I see something in Ukraine adopting the JW religion as its state religion. The Banderites would have to kick out Red Cross as accepting blood transfusions is against the Watchtower principles.
marknesop, , May 16, 2015 at 1:36 pm
Yes, I went to an Orthodox christening once for an acquaintance's child. I was completely unprepared for that singsong delivery and wondered what the hell was going on at first, and since I could not understand a word of it, it seemed even longer than it was. Which was long enough that I remarked quietly to my wife that they might just as well segue straight into the infant's wedding. Perhaps even her funeral.

[Dec 23, 2014] Angela Merkel has faced down the Russian bear in the battle for Europe by Timothy Garton Ash

This presstitute managed to produce only one meaningful sentence: "To see Germany leading the way in economic sanctions against Russia is extraordinary". That means that Germany is a puppet of the USA; probably that means also that the USA hold some info on Ms Merkel and able to force you to act as they want.
Dec 22, 2014 | theguardian.com

To see Germany leading the way in economic sanctions against Russia is extraordinary. In the early 1990s, I wrote a history of West Germany's Ostpolitik, culminating in German unification, and the first commandment of that Ostpolitik was that eastern trade should always go on. Sanctions were called for by the US and resisted by Germany. Today, Germany has more trade with Russia than any other European power. Its energy, machine-tool and other eastward–oriented businesses form a powerful lobby, not least within Merkel's own Christian Democratic Union. Yet she has taken them down the path of sanctions.

... ... ...

In Russia itself, deepening economic crisis will not necessarily translate into more accommodating policy. There is no route map to a post-Putin regime. The cornered bear may lash out. In the bloodied fields of eastern Ukraine, there is still the risk of a series of 1914-style miscalculations leading to an escalation

TourdeLaPin -> Mirek Kondracki 22 Dec 2014 22:37

A recent US RAND Coorporation study concluded:

"The growing strength of the developing world and projected flat growth trajectory of the developed world carries huge consequences for the future of global politics. Chinese leaders grasp this potential keenly. Washington and its allies must anticipate this trajectory just as thoroughly to sustain a stable and peaceful world order."

Nippikin 22 Dec 2014 21:47

If Russian gas is cheaper -- can we expect our energy bills come down in the UK my bill for a three bedroom house is £1670 per year and I'm economical with energy /- so whose profiting from cheaper Russian gas??

RightDougie -> RightDougie 22 Dec 2014 21:46

Dan could you edit my bits. You are a much better writer.

Last point. You are right. "Germany doesn't need Russia." But Russia doesn't need Germany in the absolute terms you described. Russia only needs right of passage (via business) through the EU, not Germany specifically. One: the EU is fractured over this, and embattled on a number of political fronts. Even full EU - fully united to maintain this quasi-blocade - Russia has decent access to eastern and southern borders. Russia is certainly not "shafted" without Germany. It can route business around Germany, even a fully united EU behind Germany.

I'm no fan of capitalism, but let's do business. There is no classical left wing argument to have here ... and I am near-Chomsky lefty. If Germany knows one thing, its how to do business in this neo-con system we're locked into right now. Economically, this is a battle between two independently neo-conservative forces; very little left vs right is going on in, or about, Ukraine. Its uni-ideolgical.

As TGA may have implied otherwise, I don't think we need to fear Germany will be shifting its cultural loyalties any time soon either. Its confident enough in its own. It certainly leans to the west. And that's where its other institutes will lean, including German business. It just is, what it is. It won't be jumping over to the "dark side" anytime soon.

Let Germany, and its allies, be the borders demarcating oli-corporate sovereignty right now. Let German, and its allies, profit from peace.

Here and now ... today ... there is no ideological battle to be had on the front lines. This is battle between two extremely conservative economically neo-liberal forces. It's about business. We can have the left-right argument in the virtual world. We operate in the "whatever it is world," in the here and now. Let's stand this thing down.

erpiu 22 Dec 2014 21:41

merkel is a person with very strong (opportunistic) principles:

watch her here acknowledge that she was "70% opportunistic" when she was working on her great career in the east-german establishment (including STASI activities), before "liberty arrived".

at 30secs+

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h9lQ7sLWeo

and of course, after "liberty arrived", how could she *idealistically* not discovered that her true vocation was to become a member of the most pro-nazi of the rightwing parties of new grossdeutschland, i.e., the CDU/CSU?

and brown-diaper gauck is not simply "an east German Protestant" as know-nothing(?) TGA tries to sell him here:

yes, TGA, this the "europa" that also der fuehrer wanted!

RoyalBludger 22 Dec 2014 21:20

I wonder what KKKUSA intercepted on Merkel's phone over the last 20 years or so ...

twiglette 22 Dec 2014 21:18

Is it really so clever to humiliate Russia like this? Is Europe really so pleased with German domination? I don't think so. Germany risks a war to suppress Russians in East Ukraine. Not good at all.

erpiu 22 Dec 2014 21:04

"the forces of plutocratic liberty" TM carried out a coup d'etat in UKR in order to disenfranchise south-eastern UKR voters since they figured out correctly that their north-western UKR minions would never win in a fair election.

indeed, south-eastern UKR voters had decided all recent pre-2014 UKR elections by voting against the candidates supported by the "free world"TM.

so the EU+USA instigated/funded/guided a rebellion in *north-western* UKR that led to a violent coup in kiew (in the middle of *north-western* UKR) that was carried out by armed neonazis.

that's why there was practically no maidan in south-eastern UKR...

the coup led to neonazi-policed internal politics via the reformed-neonazi new minister of justice, the reformed-neonazi new police chief, etc.

the neonazi stormtroopers were given "national-guard" status (like hitler's SA/SS that became "reichspolizei") and began right away beating up everybody whom they did not like, mixing it up with intimidating journalists, harassing inquiry commissions, you name it.

and the numbers about the "elections" held after the coup don't lie:

i) votes for poroshenko and tymoshenko *together* in 2014 (12.2 million) were fewer than for yanukovych *alone* in 2010 (12.5)

ii) turnout 2010 first round: 24.5 million, 2014:18.0.

iii) the turnout for the 2014 congressional elections was a triumphal 53%

yes, timothy garton ash, this is "what true democracy looks like!"... when the great-western plutocracies cannot win in a fair election (see also haiti 2010, thailand 2014).

A job well done...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2014
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2010
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2010 (first round info)

AstheticTheory 22 Dec 2014 21:02

CIA big lie: we don't engineer coups, we merely support democracy.

Elena Hodgson -> Oskar Jaeger 22 Dec 2014 21:02

http://www.russianembassy.org/article/russian-foreign-ministry-spokesman-alexander-lukashevich-remarks-in-connection-with-the-sign

Elena Hodgson -> Oskar Jaeger 22 Dec 2014 20:58

Unlikely wish, I am afraid. Obama has signed anti-Russian "Ukraine Freedom Support" Bill. Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman: "the decision planted a powerful bomb into Russian-American relationship". Lukashevich promised Russian retaliation if the new law is implemented. Happy New Year!

corstopitum 22 Dec 2014 20:57

Well Dolf just failed to do it, despite trying very hard, about 75 years ago. And Hindenberg had a partial success about 25 years earlier. So I guess the Germans are improving with practice.

[Dec 21, 2014] Wrecking Russia's economy could be a disaster for the west by Angus Roxburgh

Putin might not be too accommodative for neoliberals in Washington, but at least he is predictable. At the same time Western, at first of all the US elite demonstrates some kind of sociopathic behaviour -- the desire to dominate at all costs. West is a 1000 pound guerilla that is perfectly capable to crash Russian economy. Then what? Civil war in nuclear armed state? Radical nationalists coming to power ? What is the end game after destabilizing Russia. Drunkard Yeltsin regime, thanks God did not do too much stupid things. But the next time can be different
Dec 16, 2014 | The Guardian

As for the west's sanctions, they were introduced with one explicit aim – to force Putin to change tack in Ukraine. At least, that was the stated aim. But since the measures show no sign of having any effect on his thinking, and yet the west is considering even more sanctions, there is obviously another goal – to punish Putin for his actions, regardless of whether he changes his mind. Sadly, it is not Putin who feels this punishment. It is the Russian people.

... ... ...

Perhaps it is time to recognise that George W Bush's disastrous foreign policy legacy encompasses far more than just Iraq, torture and the fanning of terrorism. Bush also understood nothing about Russia – right from the moment that he looked into Putin's eyes and told us how he "got a sense of his soul" – and now we are living with the consequences.

It was the Bush administration that created the sense of insecurity that has caused Russia to react, and overreact, to every perceived threat – including, most recently, the perception that Ukraine was being forcibly dragged out of Russia's orbit and into the west's. Bush unilaterally abandoned the anti-ballistic missile treaty , seen by Russia as the cornerstone of strategic balance; he began building a missile shield on Russia's doorstep; he expanded Nato to Russia's frontiers, blithely granting the east Europeans "security" while causing Russia to feel threatened.

Laurence Johnson -> HansB09, 19 Dec 2014 08:30

Former US diplomats have repeatedly stated that Washington controls Germany and that has always been the case since WW2.

If Washington controls Germany, and Germany controls the EU, then its clear where all this is going and is going to cause some very red faces if the UK leaves the EU.

Will D 18 Dec 2014 18:57

Such hypocrisy by the West. And also nasty and vindictive. Compared to the aggressive global bullying performed by the USA and its tame allies, Russia is positively saintly. Russia doesn't go around starting wars or bombing innocent 'collateral damage' women and children, or apply economic embargoes and sanctions on countries it doesn't like. It doesn't use its economic might to force unfair trade deals on other countries.

The USA and NATO have been squeezing Russia ever since the fall of the Soviet Union, trying hard to weaken it and corner it. Apart from the freezing northern ports, Russia has only one other exit point, the Crimea and Black Sea, which the West has tried on various occasions in the past to close off.

The credibility of the USA has declined massively in the last few years, and few people or countries really trust it anymore, but are locked into an uneasy alliance which would be difficult to break. Many don't want to keep supporting the USA's global imperialist aggression.

Angus is right, the solution is to bring Russia in from the cold and to stop the hostile expansionism by the West. It needs one of the USA's major allies, preferably Britain, to take a brave stand and change its USA-lapdog tune over Russia, and force the USA to back down. The rest of Europe would probably support Britain since the sanctions are causing them some pain.

Rozina 18 Dec 2014 17:09

Dear Angus,

I am no fan of the former US President George W Bush or his administration but to blame Cheney and Co for expanding NATO and creating "insecurity" for Russia is A PLAIN LIE. The process to expand NATO began earlier during Bill Clinton's time as US President: Hungary, Poland and the Czech Republic joined NATO in 1999.

Even if GWB had allowed the ABM treaty to lapse, the Obama government could have revived it. But the Democrats are as much under the control of US neoliberal robber barons as the Republicans are.

This and other idiocies about appeasing Putin and his government, as if they (and not the current US government and the corporations that hold its politicians in their pockets) are the spoilt global bullies, that you assert demonstrate that your articles are not to be trusted.

AMArmy 18 Dec 2014 13:03

Those who want to get deeper insight on Russia-West conflict, here is an excellent Stratfor piece on subject, titled "Viewing Russia from the Inside"

noibn48 -> ID_Neon 18 Dec 2014 10:16

Russia did, the Soviet Union didn't. It isolated itself and fell of its own weight and its own Vietnam in Afghanistan. Why was it the West's fault that the USSR had top invade Hungary in 1968 and Czechoslovakia in 1968 or couldn't even supply their people with toilet paper?

Cris Lesniak -> Ibn al Zaqqaaq 18 Dec 2014 10:09

I agree that Russia seems to be moving closer to the Erdogan regime. However, there are some conflicting FP goals, particularly in relation to Syria.

[Dec 21, 2014] Russia: Why oil crash could threaten Vladimir Putin with a palace coup

Pressitute Shawn Walker tries to instigate palace coup in Russia... As one reader commented "Well Shaun is that what is going to happen or are you hoping it will happen!"
Dec 20, 2014 | The Guardian
Old_Donkey , 20 Dec 2014 23:34
The Americans have set out to punish Russia by damaging the interests of the Russian elite, in the hope of provoking some kind of mutiny. Any moves inside Russia to get rid of Putin would therefore need to be closely coordinated with the US State Department. After all, no one would want to take the risk of launching a palace coup against Putin unless he or she had solid guarantees from the American government in advance that the United States would lift all sanctions against Russia in return.

However, although the United States is dying to get rid of Putin, the American Ambassador to Moscow must be intelligent enough to realize that American policy has actually strengthened Putin's position.

Here's why. Vladimir Putin moved swiftly to absorb Crimea into the Russian Federation. From the Russian point of view, Crimea is now a done deal. This makes it politically impossible for any successor to Putin to sell out on the Crimeans in order to please the White House.

Meanwhile, the US State Department has become a prisoner of its own rhetoric. It is incapable of recognizing Russian sovereignty over Crimea and it couldn't promise to reward any successor to Putin in that way. However, if the American government dropped the sanctions but left the Crimean question unresolved, this would leave the United States looking very silly. Leaving Russia in possession of Crimea would serve as proof that the United States had quarreled with Russia for nothing and failed to get its way.

Although Russian officials and businessman have been hurt financially by the sanctions, they are well aware that Americans will not be able to reward them for removing Putin from power. In this sense, Crimea was a very clever move on Putin's part because it has bound the Russian elite closer to him.

And let's not overlook the obvious. Putin is KGB and the FSB remains loyal to him (obviously, as his mates run the institution). Moscow has always been a tough environment for Western intelligence services to operate in and it would be very difficult for the Americans to arrange some sort of palace coup without Putin finding out about it in advance. So in the end, any Russian bureaucrat who felt tempted to conspire with the CIA against Putin would probably be too scared to go through with it.

Cirmic -> Jiri 20 Dec 2014 22:49

Yep, and the EU shouldn't criticise the use of snipers, when it itself used them in Bucharest in 89. French snipers giving legitimacy to the new incoming government.

Watch Susanne Brandstδtter's documentary: Checkmate - Strategy of a Revolution.

Bud Peart 20 Dec 2014 22:36

Some opposition figures have looked at Mikhail Khodorkovsky, formerly the country's richest man, as a potential unifying force for the anti-Putin movement.

Honestly can you name one member of the Duma who would endorse this move? Khodorkovsky is a criminal oligarch who has no popular support, none inside Russia. He's effectively some Western stooge whose only way into the Kremlin will be following a NATO invasion. Pure and utter Western liberal fantasy land.

Jiri 20 Dec 2014 22:32

Wishful thinking.

Or perhaps a case of what is being planned for Putin?

The British murdered Rasputin , so anything is possible.

cheetah43 aprescoup 20 Dec 2014 22:28

When one listens to the Ukrainian administration they sound as if their people are 'the chosen ones' in Europe entitled to all sorts of gifts, privileges and considerations from the west.

Your statement "Russians have done terrible things in south east Ukraine" is unfortunate. What terrible things have been done by the Kiev rulers are being ignored. Donbass is ruined, and that has not been carried out by the Donbass people.

Cirmic Goodthanx 20 Dec 2014 22:24

The first thing I learned after I emigrated to the west, that there is no such thing as a 'free' press. The lies that were reported about Syria were bordering on criminality.

You just simply cannot allow differing opinions in the west about countries that are being destroyed. Wars have be be sold to the public. If selling doesn't work, we have to do something outrageous (like 'chemical attacks' or throwing babies out of incubators).

Bud Peart -> MajorFustercluck 20 Dec 2014 22:41

Do you get a guardian boy scout point every time you say Putin and Thug in the same sentence?

Bud Peart -> Don9000 20 Dec 2014 22:40

Putins popularity has nothing to do with the state of the press and everything to do with a good track record.

Bud Peart -> joeking2 20 Dec 2014 22:37

Russians clearly need to get rid of Putin,

Russians seem quite happy with him. Its neocons in the west and their idiotic trendy lemmings who want to get rid of him, not Russians.

[Dec 18, 2014] Putin press conference: 'economy will rebound within two years'

Shawn Walker commentary is along State Departments talking points, as usual. You can read Shaun Walker's news wrap here. If you need details read the English translation of the conference. Transcript is available in English from President of Russia website. Actually it is pretty unusual for a leader of country to take questions from the audience and answer them for three hours.
Dec 18, 2014 | The Guardian

I will give just one example how they twist the meaning of answers:

Shawn pseudo-reporting:

10.16am GMT05:16

- Shaun Walker (@shaunwalker7) December 18, 2014

Q: Where does opposition finish and 5th column start? A: It's v difficult to answer that. I'm being honest. Because the border is subtle.

Real Putin's answer:

N. GALIMOVA: Good afternoon, Vladimir Vladimirovich! (Natalia Galimov, "Газета.Ru").

Speaking to the Federal Assembly after the referendum in Crimea, You used the expression: a "fifth column" and "national traitors" - You did not named anyone specifically, but from this time the term "fifth column" again became active in the political lexicon. Those who support you now call "fifth column" people who disagree with the government. Whom were you referring to when he talked about "national traitors", "fifth column", and where for you the opposition ends and the "fifth column" starts? And finally, do you feel personally responsible for the return of this term, which only adds to public hostility and division?

Thank you.

Vladimir Putin:

No, I do not feel any responsibility in this regard. And all my actions are intended to unite our society, not divide it. If you believe that (and I believe you, probably, so probably are more sensitive to this label), I should be more careful in their public statements, I'll think about it. But trying to put a gloss on everything infinitely is impossibletoo, we sometimes need to call things by their proper names.

The issue is extremely complex. I say quite frankly, I find it difficult to answer your question because the line is very thin. It is difficult, perhaps, to give a scientific definition, where it the opposition ends and the "fifth column" begins.

This year we all (our Year of culture 2014) celebrated the anniversary of Mikhail Yuryevich Lermontov, our great poet. We all remember his lines, how about the battle of Borodino he wrote: "Let's die defending Moscow, like our grandfathers died!" But he wrote and others: "farewell, unwashed Russia, a country of slaves, the country of nobles. An you, blue uniforms, and you, the people who are loyal to them" He was the opposition? Of course, there was opposition. After all, if you know, I'm sure many here know, when he wrote "On death of a poet" on the death of Pushkin, one of the relatives came to his home, saw what he wrote, and asked him to soften the text of the poem.

He was so outraged that not only did not follow the recommendation, he made it more sharp and wrote in the end: "And you can't wash away all your black blood the poet righteous blood!" He, of course, was in the opposition to power, but I think he was a patriot. This is a very fine line. He was an officer who was a very brave officer, the officer who went under the bullets fire for the interests of the country.

Incidentally, in the last film of Nikita Sergeyevich Mikhalkov we see the same type of officers. When they brought the matter to its logical conclusion - undershed the revolution, then the revolutionaries drowned them all. And I am nor sure that, if they returned to the point where they started, would they act the same for the destruction of the Russian state, as they did.

In a way I think that the line between opposition and a "fifth column" is internal. It is difficult to see it externally. What is the essence of it? The opposition, even very harsh, it is ultimately is ready to fight for their homeland till the bitter end. A "fifth column" are those people, who do what is dictated by the interests of another state. They are used as a tool to achieve foreign power to achieve unacceptable to our people policy objectives.

ShionUK flores93 18 Dec 2014 08:33

What a totally floored argument. Go look at the geopolitical side of this campaign against Russia. We are encircling it and trying to poke them into war. That ended well for Hitler and is perhaps why we are not speaking German right now. Plus since then Russia has enough nukes to destroy all of us. Plus where is all this aggression you lot speak of. Not one shot fired and no evidence of any troops or weapons in Ukraine. Yes sounds like a REAL aggressor to me. Open wide everyone the news is on!

MacCosham georgeat4 18 Dec 2014 08:31

Oh enough of this bullshit, Russia produces close to 2.5 million vehicles a year, the great majority with over 70% local parts. It has a large production, and even greater potential, for food, clothing, machinery, furniture and many other things. This myth that "Russia produces nothing" is tiresome. It just hasn't been able to export to the west, fairly or unfairly.

flores93 18 Dec 2014 08:19

Russia 142 million inhabitants

EU 400 m
US 350 m
Indonesia 250 m
Brazil 190 m
Japan 125 m

Apart from the US, none of those other countries or unions are throwing their weight around like Putin's Russia.

Since the Chinese now live according to "greed is good" will they prefer trading with 142 million customers or with over 1 billion customers? Look at the profits from either market groupig and consider the the choice the Chinese will make.

If push comes to shove Europe west of the Russian border and the countries on the other continents can manage without trade or other activities with Russia. Ignoring Russia would be the best.

I am glad that Moscow is about 14,500 kilometres away from where I live. Far enough to forget about Russia. I feel sorry for its neighbours

FrenchScouse 18 Dec 2014 08:17

What amazes me in this conference is the tone: conciliatory. No war rhetorics of who will piss further and the crap that comes from the US. While here we portray Putin as "dictator" and aggressor and so on, he refers to us as "western partners". While in the west we will fight the "war on terror" and ask for removing presidents by force by arming "moderate" opposition, he talks about "finding as solution with ukraine's president"... Yes, of course, Putin can lie. But his language reveal something else: not what he necessary think, but what Russian people want to hear.

[Dec 08, 2014] We should beware Russia's links with Europe's right by Luke Harding

They dusted off Luke Harding. Hurrah -- Congratulations Guardian editors. And as one reader observed -- "it is hilarious and, most importantly, hypocritical when some e-minions are complaining about someone else's 'propaganda'....". Especially such a despicable presstitute as Luke Harding.

IlicPetar -> Doug Salzmann 8 Dec 2014 16:17

With pesky details I help Luke to do his job, as Mat helps Psaki.

Matt Lee takes on White House spokesperson Jen Psaki about Snowden's right to free speech

Matt Lee seems to not believe what he hears the White House announcing, and doesn't let loose on asking back, noting that "... this is an incredibly slippery slope that you're going down here, that the U.S. Government is going down here, if you are coming up and saying to us that you're trying to prevent an American citizen – albeit one who has been accused of serious crimes – from exercising his right to free speech."

Madranon 8 Dec 2014 16:11

Tactically, Russia is exploiting the popular dissent against the EU – fuelled by both immigration and austerity. But as rightwing movements grow in influence across the continent, Europe must wake up to their insidious means of funding, or risk seeing its own institutions subverted.

A call for stricter controls on political parties? In what way could a country avoid being "subverted?" A dangerous request really.

spiceof 8 Dec 2014 15:59

How would the author categorize those who currently rule most Western nations?

Moderates, liberals? Ha!

They are in fact a new breed, a new establishment drawn from all sources, a motley group of career politicians, propagandists and journalists with no ideology and no clear goals except that of personal advancement. They are the conformists enforcers of Corporate and Financial will, they are intolerant and censorious, their livelihood is dependent on trumpeting the official narrative and they are an absolute menace to democracy and freedom.

And we are supposed to be worrying about Putin, an outsider, when those who run the show inside are a bunch of egotistic fools leading us to serfdom?

JJRichardson IlicPetar 8 Dec 2014 15:52

Centre Right Centre Left, you couldn't slide a cigarette paper between the two of them in Germany. Hence the Grand Coalition.

Ved_Rvs nonanon1 8 Dec 2014 15:51

it is hilarious and, most importantly, hypocritical when some e-minions are complaining about someone else's 'propaganda'....

[Dec 07, 2014] Moscow braces for economic winter as rouble becomes a standing joke by Shaun Walker

From comments: " There's nothing concrete to comment on in this puff piece. It's very hard to see what the consequences of the current spat between the US and Russia will be, especially as there is very little objective news about what is going on, and you wouldn't be able to recognize it as such, even if you did manage to stumble across some. "
Dec 07, 2014 | The Guardian
According to Putin on Thursday, the best answer to the imposition of sanctions by nefarious western foes, as well as to Russia's internal problems, was "freedom for development in the economic, social and civil sectors".

It was uncharacteristic rhetoric for the former KGB agent, but he quickly qualified the statement by framing his definition of freedom in terms given by the Russian philosopher Ivan Ilyin: "He who loves Russia should wish her freedom; first and foremost freedom for Russia itself, her independence and international standing … and finally, freedom for Russian people, for all of us."

Essentially, freedom is all well and good, but the interests of the state come first. And anyone who thought that Russia's annexation of Crimea and its actions in Ukraine helped precipitate the sanctions and economic decline were hopelessly naive, Putin insisted: the west was simply looking for an excuse to punish Russia and would have found another reason, if not in Ukraine.

irishmand PixieFrouFrou 7 Dec 2014 13:44

"Which one was that?"
Defeating nazism. I know US missed the reason of the war entirely, being busy selling equipment to both parties. Then they suddenly decided to join at the end of the war and wrote in the history that they won it. They also let some nazi criminal to escape to US.
By the way, declaring the war and joining the war are two different things.

devisssssss -> ID5088152 7 Dec 2014 14:44

ID5088152 said: "The data you are quoting is using out of date exchange rates, typically the average for 2013. Tradingeconomics is updated daily and as the Ruble has depreciated about 70% against the dollar since 2013 the GPD per capita expressed in dollars is way down

======

wrong again...currency rate change doesn't reflect the value of a product - it indicates perchasing power of a currency unit - it would be possible to talk about decline of INCOMES per capita then, but NOT decline of GDP per capita withing several months as economy continue to produce the same amount of goods it did before russian currecy droped in value - looks like you have no enough education, my friend - those facts I say are ABC for any economist...

Better give up before humiliating yourself further...

ID5088152 devisssssss, 7 Dec 2014 13:40

The data you are quoting is using out of date exchange rates, typically the average for 2013. Tradingeconomics is updated daily and as the Ruble has depreciated about 70% against the dollar since 2013 the GPD per capita expressed in dollars is way down. As I said previously the PPP version is irrelevant if you are looking at the cost of imports of foreign loans designated in dollars.

devisssssss ID5088152, 7 Dec 2014 12:37

also here is tables of nominal GDP per capita by Word Bank, United Nations, Internationally Mionetary Fund and CIA book of facts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita

as you see, even in nominal GDP per capita you managed to lie and to to decieve readers - Russian GGP per capita in nominal estimation is more then 14 000 $ in all 4 estimations, not your 6 923 $ which you took from some unknown source...and even in nominal GDP per capita Russian one is better then that of Poland, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria - all EU memebers, lol -- - check your data ...

devisssssss -> ID5088152, 7 Dec 2014 12:27

ID5088152 said: "if we are discussing ability to purchase foreign goods or service a debt designated in $ you need to use the raw unadjusted data

===========

but it (estimation by nominal GDP) is rather a technical estimation that you mention, it is misleading when one compares living standards and real strength of economy because if estinmated in nominal values it gives distorted picture as costs of food in Norway is enourmously expensive and you can't compare that to China for example as it will result in conclusion that a Chineese person eats only one meal in 2 months, lol !!! - total bs.

As the same wiki article explains nominal GDP doesn't reflect real picture of economic development and living standards, enjoy:

"Comparisons of national wealth are also frequently made on the basis of nominal GDP, which does not reflect differences in the cost of living in different countries (See List of countries by GDP (nominal) per capita).

Using a PPP basis is more useful when comparing generalized differences in living standards on the whole between nations because PPP takes into account the relative cost of living and the inflation rates of the countries, rather than using only exchange rates, which may distort the real differences in income."

Dimmus -> Arcosanti, 7 Dec 2014 13:34

The thing you seem to forget is that Putin is the one intervened militarily in Ukraine

Without US idea to punch Russia by all possible means there would be much-much smaller consequences for EU from the Ukrainian crisis.

Without the initial EUUS idea to get Ukraine into EU-Ukraine agreement by any means (including removal of elected president) using nationalistic anti-russian movement as the main active force there would be no problem in Ukraine.

Bombing any number of countries around the world with any number of dead civilians (orders of magnitude larger number compared to the Ukrainian conflict), breaking sovereignty of any country in the world which US wants - doesn't make problems for EU economy or EU-US relations => do you really believe that the military action which is the problem and not that the action goes against US interests? Just imagine that it fits US interests, there would be no problems...

irishmand -> KatieL, 7 Dec 2014 13:28

Shouldn't you be the one supplying positive proof? Since your claim is extraordinary, so needs to be the proof.

So, you don't like it, do you? Well, I have never seen any positive proof from US/EU on rebels shooting the plane down, but it is everywhere in the west: in newspapers, on TV, in speeches of government officials, without a shred of evidence being presented.
There are three possibilities:
1) americans shot the plane to push the sanctions
2) ukranians shot the plane to get more support from the west
3) rebels shot the plane by mistake
None of the possibilities has been proven to be true or false.

kennyboy -> Harpagus, 7 Dec 2014 13:19

You may or may not be right about Russia. How the hell do I know, I have no first hand knowledge of it. All that I think I know has come from propaganda of one form or another. The people of Russia and Ukraine are not my primary concern, even though I have the normal human sympathy for the suffering of anyone.

I know about living in a western "democracy" and I know that the things our ancestors fought for are bit by bit being removed from us and have been since Thatcher started the rot.

We used to have a police force that used to be part of our communities and were policed with the permission of the people. We now have a force that makes taking part in a demonstration a threat to ones health and they are being provided with more and more equipment to enforce the will of the establishment. America is even more down this road. our media has revealed itself in a way that has never before been so blatant in the outright lies regarding the Kiev crisis and is now just an arm of the American government's efforts to undermine the economies of Europe and Russia. Look at the proportion of the world's wealth being captured by the oligarchs and the way that the wages of work are becoming insufficient to live the kind of live that we believed was ours.

psygone, 7 Dec 2014 13:13

-- quoting above

The problem is that Russia does not make all that much, and more money from the oil windfall of the past decade has found its way into offshore bank accounts than it has into innovative startups.

Over all, long-term plunge in oil prices is very good news for most Western, Asian and African countries. The idea that the House of Saud is primarily taking on US producers has everyone in the USA pretty much delighted -- especially when a majority of drillers are constantly revising their break-even points which is now down to $40 a barrel.
Last week -- there was another one piece of news the main oil exporters did not need, it was the announcement that the Iraqi government had signed an agreement with the Kurdistan Regional Government on the division of the output of the oil fields in the Kurdish areas on Northern Iraq. The Kurds agreed to send 300,000 barrels of oil a day south through the Iraqi pipeline while being allowed to independently sell on the international market 250,000 barrels of their own through a different pipeline to neighboring Turkey.

A year ago oil was selling at $120 per barrel and the CEO of Russia's Lukoil talking about the possibility of it reaching $200.

Japan the worlds largest importer of LNG and second to China in importing coal and with barely any oil reserves, still has a domestic oil production of just a tiny 135,500 bbl/day. Today its just only a couple of years away from using the new shale, horizontal and hydraulic drilling methods that could have them produce up to 4 million bbl/day or 50 percent of its energy needs.

Russia had several years to pivot its economy away from its over-reliance on oil. It appears that very few are giving Russia much sympathy.

------------------------------

best regards


iusHerm, 7 Dec 2014 12:59

I think, in reality, for those with enough understanding of these matters, the real joke is the $17 Trillion debt the USA is carrying. What a burden for future generations in that 'poor' country.

kennyboy -> Metronome151, 7 Dec 2014 12:58

I don't suppose you remember, or even saw reports of it in the first place, a speech by the vice president of the US. He was complaining that Europe needed "persuading" to take part in the sanctions. Maybe you know something that he doesn't.

yamba, 7 Dec 2014 12:50

There's nothing concrete to comment on in this puff piece.

It's very hard to see what the consequences of the current spat between the US and Russia will be, especially as there is very little objective news about what is going on, and you wouldn't be able to recognise it as such, even if you did manage to stumble across some.

Mirek Kondracki -> DeadKennedy, 7 Dec 2014 12:27

Russian Rouble sings to Mr. Putin:

"Will you still need me
will you still feed me
when I'm at 64"

Captain_Smartypants -> nishville, 7 Dec 2014 12:24

I didn't miss that, and it doesn't change the fact that China would be royally buggered by a financial collapse in the west - though their own shadow banking system is quite a worry as well. They can have all the concrete stuff they want - it won't save an economy based on factories and sweatshops when demand falls. Nor will it prevent the housing bubble if that happens...


Frymealiver -> Les Mills, 7 Dec 2014 12:23

That's not 45 pages of companies, that's 45 Companies (1 per page)

Of these, I've personally heard of Two : Kalashnikov and LOMO.

The original point made, that Russia has almost no international brands, is obviously true.

RVictor -> JonInUkraine, 7 Dec 2014 12:13

Odessa was almost certainly a tragic bungled Russian provocation.

O yes - everything in Ukraine is now a "Russian Provocation" (tm) - even Maidan itself!

iamnotwise -> tomarto, 7 Dec 2014 12:05

Except they didn't do that. The US is refusing to hand over the evidence they have, even though Russia has asked them to make it public. Can you figure it out yet?

Of course they are Ivan. Keep taking the meds and maybe ask your controller to find a better nom de plume for you.

Ah, I see. You've been found out lying so the response is to call me 'Ivan'. You could have avoided such an embarrassing comment by quickly checking my posting history. But it doesn't seem you do checking of anything before posting your absolute nonsense.

Captain_Smartypants -> HollyOldDog 7 Dec 2014 12:01

You still haven't explained what this has to do with Polish apples or apple producers. I don't think Polish mercenaries will care about whether their countrymen sell apples to Russia or not...

gloriousrevolution -> GreatMountainEagle, 7 Dec 2014 11:45

But how can you honestly compare the mass-slaughter and mass-destruction rained down opon Iraq with Russia actions in relation to Ukraine? The reason the Russians aren't demonstrating in huge numbers is because they support their government in defending Russians in Ukraine and Crimea. Ukraine and Crimea were part of Russia for centuries, the same, even stretching credulity to breaking point cannot be said of Iraq, or Afghnistan, or Libya.

If the Russians had attacked Canada your logic would have made a little more sense.

gloriousrevolution -> Scampers, 7 Dec 2014 11:40

But the skin colour of the ruling elite in the US has nothing of significance to do with how they behave, that's a form of liberal inverted racism in my opinion. Why should Obama's colour matter about anything? In fact Obama has done nothing to combat institutionalised racism. Class means more than skin colour in the US. Poor black people are gunned down like dogs because they have the significance of poor dogs.

Gays aren't being murdered by the police in Russia in anywhere near the numbers black men are being murdered in the United States. It's about five a week in the United States. This isn't even controversial. It's happening. The reason Russian's aren't protesting in the streets about gays is because gays are being slaughtered on the streets, not because they are repressed.

If one is going to get involved in logic and reasoning it's always a good idea to make sure that one's arguments have a little grounding in reality.

atherton65 -> senya, 7 Dec 2014 14:51

What encroachment? This is from an article by the former American ambassador to the USSR, who was present at the time it fell apart:

President Bill Clinton supported NATO's bombing of Serbia without U.N. Security Council approval and the expansion of NATO to include former Warsaw Pact countries. Those moves seemed to violate the understanding that the United States would not take advantage of the Soviet retreat from Eastern Europe. The effect on Russians' trust in the United States was devastating. In 1991, polls indicated that about 80 percent of Russian citizens had a favorable view of the United States; in 1999, nearly the same percentage had an unfavorable view.

Vladimir Putin was elected in 2000 and initially followed a pro-Western orientation. When terrorists attacked the United States on Sept. 11, 2001, he was the first foreign leader to call and offer support. He cooperated with the United States when it invaded Afghanistan, and he voluntarily removed Russian bases from Cuba and Cam Ranh Bay in Vietnam.

What did he get in return? Some meaningless praise from President George W. Bush, who then delivered the diplomatic equivalent of swift kicks to the groin: further expansion of NATO in the Baltics and the Balkans, and plans for American bases there; withdrawal from the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty; invasion of Iraq without U.N. Security Council approval; overt participation in the "color revolutions" in Ukraine, Georgia and Kyrgyzstan; and then, probing some of the firmest red lines any Russian leader would draw, talk of taking Georgia and Ukraine into NATO. Americans, heritors of the Monroe Doctrine, should have understood that Russia would be hypersensitive to foreign-dominated military alliances approaching or touching its borders.'

I would add to that NATO's Missile Defence Shield plans, which Russia was even prepared to accept on condition of it being able to place monitors at the installations (given that the US has repeatedly claimed this shield had nothing to do with countering Russia's military), but US congress rejected that proposal. There is a BBC documentary you should see (no RT links here) which outlines that controversy, and also how the US participated in those 'colour' revolutions and the pressures they exerted on the course of events, called 'Russia, Putin and the West' - do you really believe this time they had nothing to do with fuelling the unrest once it had started, that eventually put in place a government heavily favourable towards them? There are records of it on tape, as I said. Pointing the finger at Russia's stench is all well and good, but there are several fingers to point here - by omitting criticism of the US' attitudes and actions in relation to Russia and Ukraine (as well as in general globally) you are giving them tacit, or, at the very least, ignorant approval. Would you use the same rhetoric you employ against Russia towards the US (in other contexts as well as this one)?

'does not signify approval of the US.' - no, but I think almost everyone involved in Ukraine's interim government, as well as the elected one now, also gives the US pretty much their wholehearted approval, friendship and allegiance, wouldn't you say? Isn't that a surprise! And is that not approval of the US on a state level? Moreover, as you said before, what has that given Ukraine in the end?

[Dec 06, 2014] Vladimir Putin: west has tried to contain Russia for decades by Shaun Walker

Dec 04, 2014 | The Guardian

Vladimir Putin has accused the west of trying to contain and subvert Russia "for decades, if not centuries", in a fierce and uncompromising attack during his state of the nation speech.

Analysts were curious to see whether the president would take a conciliatory tone in his annual speech to Russia's political elite, as the rouble slides and relations with the west are at a low point over the unrest in Ukraine.

Instead, Putin opened with a fierce defence of Russia's annexation of Crimea, calling it a "historic rejoining" of a region as important to Russia as Temple Mount was to Jerusalem.

He said that if the recent events in Crimea had not happened, the west would have simply found another excuse to contain Russia with sanctions, recalling that in the 1990s the west had tried to break up Russia "along the Yugoslavian scenario". He warned that the sanctions and angry rhetoric from the west would only have the opposite effect to that intended.

"For some European countries, national pride is seen as a luxury, but for Russia it is a necessity," said Putin, adding that it was pointless to use threats when speaking to Russia.

"The policy of containment was not invented yesterday. It has been applied to our country for many, many years … Every time when anyone only thinks Russia has become strong, independent, such instruments are applied immediately."

Putin again called the events in Kiev a coup and said Russia had shown it would intervene on the side of "truth and justice" to defend its compatriots. Putin and Russian officials have repeatedly denied the mounting evidence that the Russian army has been active in east Ukraine, one of the reasons for harsher sanctions from the west.


He also touched on violence in the Chechen capital of Grozny on Thursday morning, where gunmen and police officers have clashed, leaving at least 16 dead. Putin described the attackers as rebels, suggesting they were receiving support from abroad, and said he was confident that authorities would bring the situation under control.

In the economic section of his speech, Putin said sanctions should prove an impetus for increased internal growth, and promised new, liberalised rules for small businesses and an amnesty on returning potentially dirty money to Russia. Capital outflow has been a problem for Russia for years, as rich businesspeople prefer to store their wealth in Britain, Cyprus and elsewhere.

"I propose a full amnesty for capital returning to Russia," Putin said. "… This means that if people legalise their resources, they get a guarantee that they won't be bothered … won't be asked about the sources … there will be no questions from the tax and law enforcement bodies to them. This should be done and done once."

Putin also suggested new rules for small and medium businesses designed to free them from the stranglehold of corrupt officials. He suggested that if a company had passed all checks successfully for three years, it should go three years without further checks.

Putin has often spoken about the need to fight corruption and improve the climate for small businesses; it remains to be seen if his words can be translated into real action to reduce corruption and stimulate business.

Putin complained about speculation on the rouble rate, which has been falling dramatically in recent weeks because of western sanctions and the falling oil price.

"We know who is speculating on the rouble. There are levers to influence these people, and the time has come to use them," the president said.

He wrapped up the hour-long speech by again attempting to portray western sanctions as an opportunity.

"The difficulties that we face also bring us new possibilities. We are ready to answer any challenge of the times and come out victorious."

He was frequently interrupted by applause from the audience, which was made up almost entirely of Kremlin-appointed regional governors and pro-Kremlin MPs. But the enthusiasm seemed more lukewarm than in previous years, perhaps due to increasing worries about the rouble and the economic situation. Publicly, however, everyone remains on message.

"I liked the economic part of his speech," said Valentina Matviyenko, the speaker of Russia's upper house of parliament, in a television interview shortly after the speech. "We need not to panic but everyone should deal with the situation we have now, roll up their sleeves and get to work."


manifestdestiny101 8m ago

Many of the posters here are actually just one individual using multiple sock puppet accounts. The Guardian UK has more on how CENTCOMM does it.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks

Excerpt: The US military is developing software that will let it secretly manipulate social media sites by using fake online personas to influence internet conversations and spread pro-American propaganda.

A Californian corporation has been awarded a contract with United States Central Command (Centcom), which oversees US armed operations in the Middle East and Central Asia, to develop what is described as an "online persona management service" that will allow one US serviceman or woman to control up to 10 separate identities based all over the world.

The project has been likened by web experts to China's attempts to control and restrict free speech on the internet. Critics are likely to complain that it will allow the US military to create a false consensus in online conversations, crowd out unwelcome opinions and smother commentaries or reports that do not correspond with its own objectives.

The discovery that the US military is developing false online personalities – known to users of social media as "sock puppets" – could also encourage other governments, private companies and non-government organisations to do the same.

The Centcom contract stipulates that each fake online persona must have a convincing background, history and supporting details, and that up to 50 US-based controllers should be able to operate false identities from their workstations "without fear of being discovered by sophisticated adversaries".

manifestdestiny101 manifestdestiny101 7m ago

http://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-05-301.pdf This link is to the official US government Psyops manual that shows that the people of the US are being manipulated in online comment sections. Not by Russia but by the United States itself. We have turned into the former Soviet Union.

Robert Sandlin UncleSam404 9m ago

You need to give me some of the stuff you have been smoking. The Ukrainian economy is dead.The currency even with Western aid makes the Rouble look good.Heat is almost non-existent in much of the country for hours of the day.Foreigners are running their government.Thousands of their soldiers are dead or wounded.And the country is on the verge of collapse.And you think Russia is having a hard time.Share the joint man,you must have some good shit there.


ID9793630 29m ago

Further to a response made to Psygone elsewhere:

What we should be asking, and worrying about, is at what point will the confluence of political and economic actions by the various participating nations in this conflict (and it clearly is a conflict) lead to a 'hot' war?

To paraphrase the famous statement of Clausewitz:

It is not just diplomacy, but moreso political and economic competition, that when continued by other means is the suitable definition of war.

I rather think that Putin and the Russian security establishment are giving this not so subtle hint. No doubt the outraged pro neo-con-neo-liberal commentariat would find this to be another outrageous example of aggressive war mongering noise by Putin and his 'cabal' - "blah blah the corrupt Russian security state tyranny blah blah barbaric paranoid aggression blah blah etc".

The problem for the rest of us is that he is only making statements (his own and those arranged via other avenues such as intelligence officials being seen to comment on economic matters like the engineered slide of the rouble) to imply the most obvious fact:

If contending forces do not give each other the space to operate economically and politically in a global context then war is inevitable. Putin is effectively making this point and setting out the parameters of the casus belli position of Russia.

The aggressive political and economic actions and behaviours by specific nations are more clearly discernible as coming from those that are referred to by Putin as seeking to contain Russia.

This is being done using direct and indirect public and private sector agency, on a national and supra national scale.

This is pretty damn obvious to the objective observer.

Only stupid people do not see this, and only stupid people think that this reflects solely on Russia as the aggressive actor in this dangerous charade.

Inevitably this will not really be about anybody's good cause but only about nation states choosing to force their peoples into a global conflagration that the people themselves do not actually have an interest in pursuing.

So far Ukraine is in the van of this latter day Charge of the Light Brigade. How ironic is that tragic yet partly self directed fate? An entire nation state as cannon fodder...

manifestdestiny101

What Putins cancellation of the SouthStream project really means for Europe.http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.nl/2014/12/the-importance-of-cancellation-of-south.html

Excerpt:

This decision was completely unexpected. As I write this, the air is of full of angry complaints from south-eastern Europe that they were not consulted or informed of this decision in advance. Several politicians in south-eastern Europe (Bulgaria especially) are desperately clinging to the idea that the Russian announcement is a bluff (it isn't) and that the project can still be saved. Since the Europeans cling to the belief that the Russians have no alternative to them as a customer, they were unable to anticipate and cannot now explain this decision.

Here it is important to explain why South Stream is important to the countries of south-eastern Europe and to the European economy as a whole.

All the south eastern European economies are in bad shape. For these countries South Stream was a vital investment and infrastructure project, securing their energy future. Moreover the transit fees that it promised would have been a major foreign currency earner.

For the EU, the essential point is that it depends on Russian gas. There has been a vast amount of talk in Europe about seeking alternative supplies. Progress in that direction had been to put it mildly small. Quite simply alternative supplies do not exist in anything like the quantity needed to replace the gas Europe gets from Russia.

There has been some brave talk of supplies of US liquefied natural gas replacing gas supplied by pipeline from Russia. Not only is such US gas inherently more expensive than Russian pipeline gas, hitting European consumers hard and hurting European competitiveness. It is unlikely to be available in anything like the necessary quantity. Quite apart from the probable dampening effects of the recent oil price fall on the US shale industry, on past record the US as a voracious consumer of energy will consume most or all of the energy from shales it produces. It is unlikely to be in a position to export much to Europe. The facilities to do this anyway do not exist, and are unlikely to exist for some time if ever.

Other possible sources of gas are problematic to say the least. Production of North Sea gas is falling. Imports of gas from north Africa and the Arabian Gulf are unlikely to be available in anything like the necessary quantity. Gas from Iran is not available for political reasons. Whilst that might eventually change, the probability is when it does that the Iranians (like the Russians) will decide to direct their energy flow eastwards, towards India and China, rather than to Europe.

For obvious reasons of geography Russia is the logical and most economic source of Europe's gas. All alternatives come with economic and political costs that make them in the end unattractive.

The EU's difficulties in finding alternative sources of gas were cruelly exposed by the debacle of the so-called another Nabucco pipeline project to bring Europe gas from the Caucasus and Central Asia. Though talked about for years in the end it never got off the ground because it never made economic sense.

Meanwhile, whilst Europe talks about diversifying its supplies, it is Russia which is actually cutting the deals.

Noes Vencia Giants1925

As an European I could care less. We don't have Russian bases in Germany but American. If the Soviets were the ones given the upper hand by history we probably would be commenting: "Does anyone in Europe really regret the Capitalist flag stopping at Berlin? Seriously.....any European?"

The West is afraid of Russian prowess simply put. US sees it as a major competition, fair enough, and EU simply would feel intimidated by a strong neighbor, understandably so too. But those were the fears with Germany 1 century ago too and isolating a proud and potentially powerful nation is never a good recipe for stability, either with Germany then, nor with Russia or China now.

manifestdestiny101 -> Giants1925

The solution is to get the US and the Ukie Nazis out of Ukraine and pull back NATO to the edge of the "Atlantic" while also getting the corrupt, propagandist, bought off media to get some integrity and quit telling us all made up lies in order to please their 1$ corporate masters. That would be a nice start. I for one am tired of being fed US and UK propaganda. Paradoxically, we have turned into the former Soviet Union.

Ted Pawlowski

If you research the history you will find that Russia was always under attack, be it from the east (Tatars, Turks, Mongols etc) and from the west (French, Poles, English, Americans etc). No wonder Putin is putting his guard up.

AMArmy

I was thinking, why in western political culture there is so much about "personality"? Every debate reduced to "he said, she said" argument. Does it help to debate opinions, and not issues? I think not. Issues are not resolved, but kind of "patched" according to some "opinion". However this is common practice in West debates.

From this standpoint, comes unnatural fascination by managers, who rule Russian Federation, current dude included. "He said that, so it must be", while issue is not seen and stay completely invisible. Going from debate culture, one completely forgets that a decision made is result of careful planning, including bringing all involved, on same page, and hard work on a decision, however hard that may be.

Sure, Crimea acceptation to Russian Federation was worked on with various ministries, planning commissions, passed through readings of laws in both chambers of Parliament of Russian Federation, and so on. Certainly, someone has offered explanation of risks and mitigation of those risks. Masses of peoples changed their state-issued papers, various public services officers prepared for the transition. My point is work done included many people, many resources, and much thinking through. Many completely voluntarily replaced their passports, this discarding any traces to former statehood. How many? 99.9%. Impressive.

Amazingly enough, maybe first time in modern World's history, everything went through without single hiccup.

And now the "West" tells to 140 mln RF people and 3 mln Crimeans that everything should be rolled back? Or their economy will contract for 1%?

More, manager dude got threatened by gang of Western politicians and somehow bears responsibility for everything that happened? I mean, all of those 143 mln people agreed on all of these troubles for no reason whatsoever? Got tricked by skillful manager dude into some kind of scheme they really don't want to be in?

Come on. Too many people signed on dotted line for it.

FORGET CRIMEA. IT'S DONE DEAL. NOONE WILL EVER TALK TO YOU ON THIS SUBJECT. EVER.

[Nov 25, 2014] Germany dodges recession thanks to rise in private consumption

Nov 25, 2014 | theguardian.com

November 25, 2014 at 1:10 am

From today's Grauniad:

Germany dodges recession thanks to rise in private consumption

The German economy turned out to be stable in a difficult global economic environment:

If in that article "German" and "Germany" were replaced with "Russian" and "Russia" respectively, would the Grauniad sing a different tune?

marknesop, November 25, 2014 at 7:47 am

All part of shoulder-to-shoulder transatlantic unity, don't you know. No negative stories in English on the German economy, because it is the EU's honeypot and we support our friends.

[Nov 24, 2014] Vladimir Putin: I don't want to rule Russia for life

The article is regular Guardian junk and as such does not deserve quoting... Comments as always in Guardian are pretty enlightening. Actually i would say the level of commenters make then dangerous for the US ruling elite.
Nov 24, 2014 | The Guardian
Cirmic 24 Nov 2014 22:57

FACT, without Putin, Russia would be like Ukraine, a country ruled by oligarchs and exploited by the west. It was not Russia's fault that in Ukraine our democracy loving oligarchs employ private armies and live like kings in the middle ages.

FACT, Puin's honesty and straight talking driving more and more eastern Europeans back towards Russia. EG. Putin is much much more popular in Hungary than anybody else.

FACT, as the much anticipated 'better living standards' have never materialised in Eastern Europe, rather I would say they are more impoverished than under communism, people there don't have and 'unbreakable' bond towards the west. They are disappointed that after 25 nothing has improved. All we were needed is for new markets, to dump western products and chip in to NATO's ever increasing military spending.

FACT, the 'international community' is much more than US and its vassal states.
So, yes, Putin is popular, he will go down in history as one of the greatest leaders of the 21st century.

jqbonnard 24 Nov 2014 21:24

Ukraine: elections in Novorossia, half a year of Odessa tragedy, economic recession

On November, 2 in Donetsk and Lugansk republics were held the elections of representatives of executive and legislative powers. The last election is of very great importance to the processes in Ukraine. It legitimizes the authorities of LNR and DNR and gives their heads international acknowledgement, though minimal.
The great plus of this election was the invitation of European observers. And not the representatives of some marginal public organizations, but delegates from national and above-national legislative organs, who highly estimated the final results of voting. So, according to Euro parliament member Jean-Luke Schaffhausen, "the results of voting express real initiations of people". Ukrainian authorities have already stated that these observers are now persona non grata in Ukraine, but by this step they only stressed partial international legitimization of voting in republics.

At the same time in other Ukrainian region – Odessa were held mourning meetings in memory of victims in House of trade unions. The tragedy happened May, 2 2014.

This unprecedented in its violence crime, which was unanimously condemned by leaders of biggest countries, who demanded Kiev authorities hold fair investigation, but up to now this crime has been covered up. No one of criminals, whose torments of half-alive people were fixed in videos and photos, has been sentenced. Moreover, official Kiev constantly shows its unwillingness to fairly estimate outrageous massacre organized by neo Nazis who have been gaining more and more power.

In his recent speech in Odessa the President of Ukraine Petr Poroshenko justified Odessa massacre and claimed that "Odessa paid high price on May, 2 for freedom and independence". And the fact that Odessa has been called since then "a Bandera city", according to him is "the biggest compliment"

The economy in Ukraine is close to disaster. Today 78 % of Ukrainians are below the breadline. And it is not a piece someone's fiction. The data are presented by UN. According to its experts, "this part of Ukrainians have consumer's basket lower than official border of poverty"
In Ukraine poverty has become a companion of educated and qualified people who have a regular job. According to Institute of demography and social investigations of Ukraine a quarter of Ukrainian population are below the breadline. One third of Ukrainians lack money to buy food, one more third – to buy clothes.

Though these authorities were elected by them, either were forced under the pressure of the same officials to make "their democratic choice".

Jacques Bonnard, Nyon, Switzerland

bobby_fisher 24 Nov 2014 21:15

Gosh, Putin spoiled the party again, trolls are going nuts.

1. Russia is not isolated (G7 is not the whole world of course).
2. Economic sanctions in the regime of non-isolation are meaningless.
3. Falling oil prices have nothing to do with sanctions, but have everything to do with Global economic slowdown, especially in China and the export policy of Saudi Arabia, whose main target is not Russia of course, but to crush US fracking industry (It will also kill Canadian oilsands in the process, no doubt about it).
So it is not going to the plan at all, we will see interesting standoff, who will blink first?
For some reason I don't think it will be russkies, Germans already cracking and the rest of EU will follow suit, and by EU I do not mean barking minions like Poland and Lithuania.

freedomcry -> Chirographer 24 Nov 2014

It's more complicated than that. It was always part of the Soviet doctrine that the "national republics" (both SSRs and ASSRs) could have special interests that the Soviet government had to take into account (per Lenin's formula of "national in form, Socialist in essence"), while any talk of Russian national interest in a Soviet domestic context would be viewed as anti-Communist and subversive. That's not to deny that a certain degree of Russian cultural hegemony did exist in the USSR, but only of the sort that seems impersonal and somehow ingrained. Anyone with a tangible and specific agenda that could remotely be accused of "Greater Russian chauvinism" would never be tolerated - and, in the Soviet political culture, such a thing was hard to imagine in the first place.

EugeneGur -> Oskar Jaeger 24 Nov 2014

if you think Herr Putin is such a good president of Russia, enjoy

Thank you for your kind permission. The only thing we expect of those living in "democracies" is to stay out of our business. You can change your presidents every 5 minutes, for all we care. We will also be deciding on our foreign policy and on what our near or far abroad is, thank you.
You don't even realize how ridiculous you all sound, do you?

unended -> alpamysh 24 Nov 2014

I don't care who the Russians elect. It's when their elected leader steals countries that we have a little heart-burn.

First, Putin stole nothing. If you want to make an allegation, it was the Russian government--not Putin, who is but one cog in the Russian government--which stole a country. Second, Russia did not steal any country. In fact, its actions were supported by a majority locally and saved a lot of lives. These facts are true whatever else you wish to say.

P.S., if you are talking about individuals, you are already distracted. But, then, I suspect you might be in the distraction business.

Roodan -> WisconsinRay 24 Nov 2014

the West is bent on "regime change"

[Nov 20, 2014] Two Russian articles on the Grauniad front page today

Moscow Exile, November 19, 2014 at 11:55 pm

Two Russian articles on the Grauniad front page today:

The new cold war: are we going back to the bad old days?

Tanks and troops invading a satellite state, tit-for-tat spy expulsions, high-risk military games of chicken involving nuclear bombers and interceptor jets, gas supply cut-offs, and angry diplomatic exchanges – if it sounds familiar, then it should. Newspaper headlines from Moscow to Washington and Sydney to Kiev all agree: the cold war is back.

That's off Tisdall again.

"Tanks and troops invading a satellite state…"

So the Ukraine is a "satellite state?"

Really?

And where exactly are these tanks and troops, Tisdall?

Got any evidence – pictures, perhaps?

Spies, sleepers and hitmen: how the Soviet Union's KGB never went away

The plagiarist again, with a picture of a dead man whose mysterious death has still not been investigated – no inquest, no nothing – but Putin did it!

"Vladimir Putin was never an especially distinguished spy" writes Tintin straight off.

I've got news for you, dickhead: he never was a "spy", distinguished or otherwise!

".. he[Puitin] sat out the collapse of the Soviet Union, an event that filled him with horror and rage…"

Know that for a fact, Tintin?

That's not what he's ever said about the event himself.

And it goes on and on:

… Putin has transformed Russia into a giant spy state …

… FSB spies are a paranoid, conspiratorial and deeply xenophobic bunch …

… For reasons that are still

ous, the FSB decided that I was one of its enemies…

… In 2006, an alleged KGB hit squad murdered the Russian dissident Alexander Litvinenko in London. It poured radioactive polonium-210 into his tea…

… Moscow's takeover of Crimea and its covert invasion of eastern Ukraine. ..

… Russian propaganda comes in the shape of the English-language channel Russia Today and via an army of Kremlin online trolls who post comments on western newspaper websites, including the Guardian's….

How does he get away with writing such shite?

Moscow Exile, November 20, 2014 at 12:54 am
How does he get away with writing such shite?

By the way, nobody can pose such a question as that above to that posing oaf Harding even if he wanted to because (surprise, surprising) there is no comments section to his article.

Comments have been allowed to Chatham-House Tisdall's article, though, in which Tisdall states that Putin has a "stridently toxic personality" and in which it is, of course de rigeur of the Grauniad/Chatham House hack to state that "… the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991, an event later deplored by Putin as the biggest tragedy of the 20th century" [Putin didn't say that at all!!! but Tisdall almost always gets that one in in his diatribes against the Evil One], which comments consist of such gems as the following:

missileman
20 November 2014 7:32am
The Russian answer to the Islamic Threat is Mass Slaughter, and of course the Serbian Govt is a puppet of Putin. 100000 killed in Grosny, blowing up their own children in Beslan for PR Purposes.

muezzin
20 November 2014 8:08am
"The people who freed Germany from the Nazis…"

Really? You are talking about 'the people' who raped German women from 12 years to 80 years old and stole the entire manufacturing base of former East Germany.
And now these same people are under the thumbs of a paranoid narcissistic kleptocrat.

UncleSam404
20 November 2014 4:41am
"If Putin is such a tyrant, why does he enjoy almost universal support in Russia?"

That's an ignorant question and makes you look disingenuous. The Russian people are cut off and fed lies by Putins orchestrated media campaign designed specifically to fool them. When there is no opposing view and you are dealing with a population like in Russia who are still a simple people it's not that hard to get them to believe whatever you want. Russia's media is just like N Koreas and it works.

And on and on it goes …

Anyone here think that UncleSam404 might live in Langley, Virgina?

"…a population like in Russia who are still a simple people it's not that hard to get them to believe whatever you want" writes UncleSam404.

In the West, it seems, you can say anything you like about Russians.

Now if someone should write in the comments to a Grauniad article: "…a population like in Nigeria who are still a simple people it's not that hard to get them to believe whatever you want" the shit would surely hit the fan!

Moscow Exile, November 20, 2014 at 3:54 am
Has anybody here ever thought that Putin is "toxic"?

He seems a rather mild mannered man to me; "disciplined" I should really say – because of his judo training, I guess. He has been known to get angry in public and to have used vulgarities, though, but very calmly and quietly.

The only three vulgarities of his that I remember were (1) when he suggested that an irritating French journalist go get circumsized after he had been arguing the case for Islamic terrorists in Russia, (2) that he should like to see the former Georgian president suspended by having his testicles attached to a street lamp and (3) that the forces of law and order would seek out and destroy terrorists wherever they could find them – including when having a crap down the khazi.

I don't consider those utterances especially "toxic".

Maybe Tisdall is a hypersensitive sort of person?

marknesop , November 20, 2014 at 8:00 am
Here's a picture of Vladimir Putin enjoying a lap dance performed by Emily Ratajkowski. Here's a picture of Vladimir Putin spitting with fury over the breakup of the Soviet Union. And here's a picture of Vladimir Putin talking to his Mom at a seance via a medium.

I don't mean to suggest Putin is expressionless or sphinxlike; he is perfectly capable of warmth and humor. But he has a very good poker face and iron self-discipline. Occasions of his actually and publicly losing his rag are rare indeed – such as his throwing a pen at some oligarch or other during that discussion in which he told them they could keep all their swag if they stayed out of politics. He has never, ever, in any medium said the dissolution of the Soviet Union filled him with horror and rage, and has been quite clear that there can never be any resurrection of it, or that it is certainly not a desire on his part to resurrect it. The continuous characterizations in the western press of Putin "spitting with fury" and "addled with baffled rage" are simply attributions by journalists who tend to lurid narratives and feel like applying a little artistic license.

There has to be a point at which increasingly wild stories about Putin will backfire, and readers will pause and look incredulously at the name of the journalist to see if he needs to be committed, because the made-up foolishness just continues to unroll while the appetite of the public for even more crazy Putin stories seems insatiable. Perhaps the aim is to tip some citizen over the edge so that he will fly to Russia in an excess of choler and assassinate him.

The Guardian

alpamysh -> Spiffey , 15 Nov 2014 13:44
Again, Europe has much to offer. I think the healing process in N. Ireland would be an excellent model for Ukraine. But somehow I think our Putinists would have other ideas.
amrit, 15 Nov 2014 13:43
I cannot believe this is an Editorial from Guardian. Better pen the names behind the writings that seems to have come from the office of US VP.

Many other countries have invaded other countries (that have been bullied in to give me our oil under your ground).

In case of Ukraine west wanted to have a speed dash to the Russian borders and hence the enlargement of NATO and EU.

Ukrainians should have used an iota of senses and should have milked both Russia and west by having cordial relations with both. However idiots started with denying the use of Russian as a language for the population of Eastern Ukraine, denying them use of their mother language.

grandchester, 15 Nov 2014 13:41

geopolitics reduced to we in the West are good and the Russians are bad

Jirik -> RoryYeo, 15 Nov 2014 13:40
Well they don't hide the fact that they target children, in fact Poroshenko boasts about it.

Still no prospect of democratic representation for the Eastern Ukrainians - just collective punishment for being too Russian. We had 'let's hear it for Hamas' yesterday, today it's a big cheer for the Azov Brigades. Good old Guardian.

sodtheproles -> alpamysh, 15 Nov 2014 13:36
I'd say this - is your tone ever even-handed? Besides, I was always taught to play the ball, not the man.

And however you try to spin it, you have neo-Nazis in government in Kiev, but I suppose nobody will mind them being referred to as racists and fascists instead

alpamysh -> Metronome151, 15 Nov 2014 13:34
I'd argue some of it also comes from the great Polish trilogy "With Fire and Sword", Sadly, that' concerns the era when Ukraine became part of Moscow. Before, it had been Ukrainian Cossacks and Hussars against Moscow.
1DrSigmundFraud, 15 Nov 2014 13:30

The main task that the American puppet masters have set for the Ukrainian junta is to draw Russia into a full-scale war with Ukraine. It is for this purpose that all of these heinous crimes are committed – to force Russia to send troops to Ukraine to protect the civilian population, which has been fleeing to Russia in the hundreds of thousands and begging for help.

Naturally, Russia can't remain indifferent. Therefore, the American supervisors of the Ukrainian Nazis call far escalation of violence and more victims. Heavy artillery is used against women and children. People are trapped in blockaded cities without water and food.

Some cities are facing a real famine. In other words, genocide is being committed on orders from America to force Russia to interfere and protect the civilian population, the same ethnic Russians and Ukrainians, living on the other side of the border.

And I should say that the public pressure provoked by these tragic events is very high.

bootboys -> madsttdk, 15 Nov 2014 13:30

I could have sworn you were talking about the Bots

This is your idea of 'engaging in proper debate'? Maybe you should try reading your own posts and give your head a shake Mads.

1DrSigmundFraud -> Joemiller, 15 Nov 2014 13:29
Then you should get out more I know somebody from the Crimea who i'd trust with my life and i'm no putinbot. She filled me in on what the situation is and you'll never find it on any Editors page of the Guardian, it's a neocon shill.

The lies and rhetoric on here are a joke the Ukrainian Government was overthrown by by a Neo Nazi clique on the payroll of Victoria Nuland and John McCain and funded to the tune of $5.000000 000000 if you think 1000s of dead Ukrainians are worth the lives of those neocon scumbags your in good company

clara ffrench, 5 Nov 2014 13:28
The subversion of the Guardian by SIS and its use as a mouthpiece for neocon foreign policy is far more worrying than Russia reasserting its rightful place in the world.
Metronome151 -> alpamysh, 15 Nov 2014 13:28
Funny you should say that. Isengard and Mordor were loosely abstractions of Germany and Russia when Tolkien wrote LOTR.
MasonInNY -> LowlyPeruser, 15 Nov 2014 13:21

Victoria "Little Vicky" Nuland obviously has Czarina status in Russia, Belarus, and the 5 Central Asian "Stans".

She's so all-powerful that she has driven US-EU-Russian relations for the last year. Fortunately, the little lady doesn't have access to a Buk, like the Russian irregulars did.

thankgodimanatheist, 15 Nov 2014 13:20

Where is The Guardian view on subversion in Palestine, Cuba, Iran, Iraq and its impact on the international system? The list could go on and on and on and on.

Hypocrisy thy name is Western intervention and imperialism.

RoryYeo -> harryphilby, 15 Nov 2014 13:19
They killed an entire family, including two children, in Gorlovka yesterday when they fired grad missiles into an apartment block. That's the government the Guardian is supporting. Lovely.
Beginner20 , 15 Nov 2014 13:16
BRICS offers the G20 to continue the reform of the IMF, without the US

15/11/2014 11:53

The heads of the BRICS countries, meeting "in the fields" summit G20, expressed disappointment and deep concern in connection with the ratification of the reform of the IMF, is tightened by the US Congress in 2010, leaders said that such delays "affect the Fund's legitimacy and credibility." In a joint statement, the BRICS states that "if the United States did not ratify the reform," "Big Twenty" should "plan options discussion of next steps that the IMF will present in January 2015".

This statement accompanies the orders that were given to the leaders of the BRICS to form the Interim Board of Directors of the New Development Bank. The financial structure - a future competitor of the IMF, which works to regulate the balance of payments of the group without the involvement of the Bretton Woods institutions.

bootboys -> PixieFrouFrou', 15 Nov 2014 13:16

The US and UK left Iraq some time ago

That would be the same Iraq that Obama is sending troops to, initially as 'advisers' and, a week later, as possible boots on the ground.

RoryYeo, 15 Nov 2014 13:14
And John McCain was apparently meeting with the commanders of three right-wing Ukrainian militias today. I wonder what that could have been about?

sodtheproles -> RoryYeo, 15 Nov 2014 13:53

McCain is basically a groupie. Show him an alpha male psycho like al-Baghdadi and this lot, and he can't contain himself

Beginner20 , 15 Nov 2014 13:13

Russia will not demand early repayment of Ukraine depts
15/11/2014 18:22

In an interview with German TV channel ARD, Russian President Vladimir Putin said that "Russia will not demand from Ukraine early repayment of $ 3 billion, which was issued in 2013". The Russian leader is convinced: "If we do this, the entire financial system of Ukraine will collapse. We have already decided that we will not do it. "

BabyBoomer55, 15 Nov 2014 13:13
Merkel and the eurozone elites have a lot to answer for here. They provided the catalyst, they supported Ukrainian eu membership, they supported the ousting of the then Ukrainian leader, they went to support the then protesters who wanted to be part of Europe, they ignored reality.

The bloody eurozone leaders should not have got embroiled in this. Never see Merkel supporting protesters in Greece, Spain, Italy et al when they are rightfully demanding their rights. No, they simply branded as being 'anti european'.

There is a simple answer to this crisis in the Ukraine. Its called Il conceived interference.

LustreDiadem 15 Nov 2014 13:53

Irrespective of your opinion on Western bias as regards news reporting, the fact still remains, Russian military hardware and very likely Russian troops are fighting in the Ukraine, in what is a civil conflict. Putin, in one hand says "I want peace" whilst the other controls the switches that launch the bombs. It's an old tactic, Hitler used a similar line to hoodwink the Europe of 1939. You talk peace, whilst the tanks keep rolling over the sovereignty of nations.

Standupwoman , 15 Nov 2014 13:52
It's hard to know where to begin unpacking this astonishing farrago of nonsense, but one aspect I don't think many have touched on is this one - that an end to the fighting would be 'overwhelmingly to Ukraine's advantage'. That is simply not true.

From a human point of view, it's obviously to everyone's advantage, but Ukraine simply daren't lose the Donbass. The IMF made it clear on May 1st that the aid package would need to be 'redesigned' if Ukraine lost control of the East - and the events in Odessa on May 2nd showed us exactly how Ukraine interpreted that threat.

There's also the political angle, which means it would be suicide for any Ukrainian politician to concede territory to the rebels. The country is seething with armed volunteers (many openly Nazi) who have said more than once they're prepared to 'march on Kiev' if it doesn't give them the support they need.

Maidan whipped up so much nationalist fervour and appalling race-hatred against the Moskals that even a truce is now seen as a kind of treason. So many people have died now, that the Rada simply HAS to have some kind of victory to show for it.

Nor are the nationalists the only threat. Without either Crimea or the Donbass to give them military control over Russia, the US itself is likely to lose interest in Ukraine. Biden will be especially annoyed, since he's gone to all this trouble to install his son at the top of Burisma Holdings - and the main area of shale gas just happens to be in the Donbass. Ukraine has deliberately set out to provoke Russia to please the US - and now risks being left to face a very pissed-off Bear all by its own little self.

Even Poroshenko wants to go on. His nasty little speech made that clear, as he gloated over the inevitable victory to be had by continuing to shell civilians. He doesn't care how he does it (and clearly neither does the West) but he's absolutely determined to destroy the rebellion in East Ukraine.

So no, it is not overwhelmingly to Ukraine's advantage to end the fighting, which is why they've used the ceasefire to regroup and reinforce for the new assaults to come. By all means let's disagree on how the rebels are dealing with this, but let's not pretend Ukraine is an innocently afflicted dove of peace.

DrKropotkin -> alpamysh 15 Nov 2014 14:06

Russian can be used, but the first act of the coup leaders was an attempt to outlaw Russian as an official language. The fact that it was vetoed by the president doesn't take away from the damage done by this move. After this, and the new government's response to the Odessa massacre, it's not surprising that ethnic Russians could not feel comfortable with the gang that claimed power in Kiev. They asked for federalisation to ensure their rights, they got tanks and shelling - Now they will only settle for independence. That is the crux of this conflict, but none of it was mentioned in the article.

wombatman 15 Nov 2014 14:06

"But an end to the fighting would have been so overwhelmingly to Ukraine's advantage, even if areas remained under rebel control, that it is simply not believable that they were the main instigators."

The above statement is only true in part, in that it may apply to Ukrainian Government forces, however Kiev does not control many of the volunteer brigades, who often are motivated by their right-wing, ultra-nationalistic ideology, rather than what is good for Ukraine as a whole. They also have a deep hatred of ethnic Russians who are Ukrainians and Russia itself. Members of these groups have been quoted as saying they want the fighting to continue and they are not willing to accept any truce.

I hope it was an accident that the Guardian did not take into account these militias, but it does seem often the Guardian try to portray the Ukrainian forces as some well-organised force, rather than one, where many have deserted as they refused to fire on their own people, and also consist of far right brigades and also those which are really the private army of some oligarch.

sodtheproles Standupwoman 15 Nov 2014 14:05

The Giardiun is a very confused newspaper these days. To be frank, its days in print are probably numbered and it's probably trying to set itself up as an alternative to Huffpost - which means it'll continue to see things through White House tinted spectacles. But the trouble with converts is that they weren't born to it, and so it'll always come across as stilted and fake. Anyway, are facts still sacred to the Grauniad? Facts be damned, more like

happygolucky1661 15 Nov 2014 13:46

Did any western media report Putin's speech in any kind of detail? No...I Wonder why? http://eng.kremlin.ru/transcripts/23137


DrKropotkin PeterWoking 15 Nov 2014 14:13

You do realise, if all Hitler had ever done was take the Sudetenland then his name would not be as infamous as it is. Just because somebody does something that Hitler also did, doesn't mean they'll start gassing Jews. Did anybody compare Kosovo to the Sudetenland?

Crimea had a referendum, they wanted to return to Russia, that's what happened. The vast majority of Crimeans are happy with the situation and it would be hard to find one that would call it an invasion. The East of Ukraine is in revolt, this is not due to Putin (although I believe he supports them) but the cack-handed actions of Kiev's new rulers. I believe John Brennan was there to give them advise, just before they sent the tanks in.

Standupwoman , 15 Nov 2014 14:09
Yes, good point. There's also Neil Clark, who used to write a lot for the Guardian - he fights like anything for free speech and independent thought.

It's still a pity that no British outlet will publish these pieces. If only RT or Russia Insider will broadcast them, then Ukraine trolls can pretend these people are 'paid Russian propagandists'. But there are ways round, and the ludicrousness of the situation was never shown more clearly than when Alec Luhn had to publish a perfectly good piece on Donetsk in 'Women's Wear Daily'...

wombatman -> alpamysh 15 Nov 2014 14:12

There was a EU brokered agreement signed reluctantly by the President and the opposition which would have led to him going and then nationwide elections (Crimea included) and constitution changes would be rolled back to 2004.

It was then elements of the unelected mob who bullied the opposition politicians into breaking this agreement. It was very noticeable it was far right and ultra-nationalists in the crowd who did this.

It gets very tiring when people cannot accept that an acceptable agreement that could have saved the integrity of Ukraine and the deaths of thousands, was due to right wing thugs and the abject cowardice of the opposition politicians who so cravenly allowed themselves to be intimidated by the extremists.

[Nov 04, 2014] LUKE HARDING PORN: READ THE GUARDIAN'S APOLOGY TO THE EXILE OVER LUKE HARDING PLAGIARISM

Moscow Exile , November 4, 2014 at 12:22 am

Again from from Russian Insider:

The Controversial Ethnic Breakdown of Russia's Richest Businessmen

One of Russia's most popular news websites, the once vaunted Lenta.ru, finds itself at the center of a scandal today, after publishing an ethnic breakdown of Russia's 200 richest people. According to the study, 44.5 percent of Russia's wealthiest citizens are ethnically Russian, 21 percent are Jewish, 12 percent are Ukrainian, followed by smaller percentages of Tatars, Armenians, and a dozen or so other nationalities. "Overall", the report concludes questionably, "it's clear how different ethnic groups in a multi-ethnic country have used a collaborative solidarity and response to the beginning of the 'capitalist era' to build a new kind of economic and political life".

Concludes questionably?

As it happens, this isn't the first time a Russian news site has published an ethnic breakdown of Forbes' top-200 richest men in Russia. Two years ago, Pavel Pryanikov's website Ttolk.ru posted a nearly identical study (with roughly the same findings) that also looked at businessmen's class history (tracking their socioeconomic trajectories from Soviet times).

Far earlier than that was a similar conclusion arrived at, namely that "different ethnic groups in a multi-ethnic country have used a collaborative solidarity and response to the beginning of the 'capitalist era' to build a new kind of economic and political life".

Kevin O'Flynn of "The Exile" did just that over 10 years ago. And his article with its conclusion was repeated practically word for word in a Grauniad article written by Luke Harding.

That's when the shit hit the fan: the folk at the Exile complained and the Grauniad had to publicly apologize for their star journalist's plagiarism, but woe betide any commenter to that rag's articles that mentions this!

See:

Luke Harding Hacks The Exile!

LUKE HARDING PORN: READ THE GUARDIAN'S APOLOGY TO THE EXILE OVER LUKE HARDING PLAGIARISM

Moscow Exile , November 4, 2014 at 12:43 am
To elaborate on my query as regards the phrase "concludes questionably".

I am sure that nobody, but nobody, in Russia, or elsewhere for that matter, has not reached the conclusion that the Georgian ethnicity of a large portion of the so-called Russian Mafia (better known as "Thieves Operating Under a Thieves Code" or, in Russian: "Воры в законе" [vory v zakone] – literally "thieves in law") and their success in consolidating their malevolent influence in the underworld is largely due to their "collaborative solidarity".

yalensis, November 4, 2014 at 3:37 am
Makes sense. You know the saying, "It isn't who you are, but who you know."

In any walk of life, even in the legitimate world, it helps to have connections. A lot of people get jobs through their connections with people already working at the company, etc.
It helps just knowing other people from hobbyist clubs, school activities, church, etc.

At one job I worked at, there was a core group of insiders who were – believe it or not! – members of the same Masonic Lodge. I know that sounds like a ridiculous conspiracy theory – Zionists and Masons rule the world! - but it was literally true.
And the fact that Masons are a SECRET society, meant that they (probably) conducted a lot of business and/or gossip (about other employees) while in the throes of whatever secret ceremonies Masons are wont to do. In other words, making decisions about promotions, hiring, firing, etc. All very unfair and outside of official company HR system.

Based on this banal truth, it makes sense that businessmen and criminal gangs help each other out, based on ethnic and family ties.

Moscow Exile , November 4, 2014 at 7:18 am
A Russian colleague of mine was absolutely flabbergasted when I told him of the power that I believe Freemasons have in the UK. He associated Freemasonry with persons such as Tolstoy's fictive Pierre and other wastrel aristos of long-gone-by Russia.

Every so often some journalist in the UK does a revelation of the activities of Freemasons there and books on this topic also appear occasionally, with the allegation, for example, that every chief cop and top judge in Misty Albion is a Mason. (Women excluded, of course, because the Freemasons is a boys' club.)

See:

Freemasons: Your questions answered

That's a typical BBC move-along-now-nothing-more-to-see article.

Freemasons in the police leading the attack on David Cameron's riot response

Met Police report: corrupt Freemasons run the UK legal system

Freemasonry Watch

Freemasons – a force for good or evil?

Move along now!

Nothing more to see?

[Oct 31, 2014] Ukraine votes in parliamentary election

Oct 26, 2014 | theguardian.com
811 HHeLiBe , permalink

Let's hope this is an opportunity for Ukraine to throw off the yoke of subservience and move forward to achieve its full potential.

LeDingue HHeLiBe , permalink

The "full potential" you refer too has already been well sized up be western corporations like Monsanto and investors in fracking fronted by the likes of Hunter Biden.For ordinary Ukrainians the IMF imposed austerity, privatisations and a huge hike in domestic gas bills will drive up poverty, unemployment and extremist politics. The east lies in economic ruins, even now Kiev will not (or maybe cannot) call off the private militias or the Right Sektor National Guard. Perhaps not doing so is a political decision to disenfranchise Ukrainian Russians completely.

The "subservience" you refer to I suppose you mean as subservience to Russia. This is a simplistic received notion.

Oligarchy will be more entrenched and enriched after this election even than it was before. The only difference is that western corporations will now have carte blanche.Apparently it is normal, given that our media omit to even talk about it, that billionaire oligarchs can run their own private militias of extremist hooligans -- here is your new "subservience".

Porochenko and several others should face ICC investigation for crimes of mass murder and war crimes. But of course they won't, even as reports of indiscriminate shelling and rocketing of residential areas, of the use of cluster and phosphorous munitions are published, it merely gets a minor mention here.

The oligarchs and political middle managers will do very nicely. For the rest of Ukrainians, especially the Ukrainian Russians in the east hated by those who undoubtedly will form the incoming government, the future looks dark indeed: poverty, unemployment, ultranationalist violence ... and as for the "euro" in NED's "Euromaidan" campaign: it's as ashes in the mouths of all who were tricked into believing it, it never had any basis in reality.

HHeLiBe permalink

Another picture of brilliant future for bankrupt country under American guidance.Who is going to pay for the feast?

Canigou HHeLiBe permalink

The "yoke of subservience" is to the U.S./EU/IMF, and no, that yoke will not be thrown off by this election.

There is a good article in the Boston Globe today, "Vote all you want -- the secret government won't change." The title says it all, and although it refers to U.S. elections, it surely will apply to this Ukrainian one too.

Marc de Berner, permalink

The coup that removed the legitimate government of Ukraine is now trying to legitimise itself with an election. The people of Crimea won't be voting because they have already voted. Their choice was to leave Ukraine to the fascists who staged the coup. They ard very happy to be part of Russia. As for the little bit of Ukraine that is under the control of Kiev. We in the Eu don't want you. Many of us EU citizens don't want you and your neo nazi policies. Take a look at the reality on the ground. Thw Republic of Donyets is here to stay. Your coup has divided the country into 3 separate parts. ..

duke_widin downthepublewis , permalink

your comment is over the top!

after 1500 dead ethnic Russians and over 1million fled from the Ukraine your troll friend in the White house is normally sending his drones to kill the leader and plains to bomb the people...

christopher22 downthepublewis permalink

Disaffected Western Ukrainian perhaps ?

You will be pleased to know RT have put together a documentary about the downing of MH17 You should take a look at it - and maybe then you will realise what a shower of thugs you are throwing your weight behind

Novorossiya downthepublewis permalink

"the hysterical rantings of the Russian village idiot after too many vodkas"

Why do I hate racist scum? and sympathizers of neo-nazis from Kiev and Lvov?.

precisely BECAUSE they are ignorant, prejudiced scum...

Dreikaiserbund Novorossiya permalink

Why do I hate racist scum? and sympathisers of neo-nazis from Kiev and Lvov?. precisely BECAUSE they are ignorent, prejudiced scum...

Yet you use as an avatar a flag that bears a remarkable resemblance to the Confederate battle flag? Yes, I know it's the flag of 'Novorossiya' but 'New Russia' might want to pick a flag that doesn't have such racist overtones.

Nobul Dreikaiserbund permalink

So you will be paying the glorious Ukraine's gas bills this winter?

Nobul downthepublewis , permalink

What were you doing in Donbass? A football thug, downing a few cheap vodkas, were you?

downthepublewis Nobul , permalink

You're preconceptions and prejudice betray your ignorance. In 2012 I worked on a UN project improving heating systems and insulation of schools in Lugansk, saving them over 300,000 euros per year in heating bills, and last year I worked for 1+1 on a documentary about the mining communities/industry.

downthepublewis Novorossiya , permalink

You obviously don't know the definition of 'racist', and you label all people who want a just, free and democratic Ukraine as 'neo-nazis'. Isn't tarring everyone with the same brush a classic example or prejudice? And of course it's a complete lie. By the way, it's called Lviv. You should go there sometime. It's really very lovely. See for yourself the people who live there. Then come back on here and call them 'neo-nazis'.

Nobul downthepublewis , permalink

Yes, I believe you, except the entire education budget of Luhansk Oblast was probably less than the 300,000 euros you claimed to have saved them from heating. And what a plumber doing for 1+1 documentary about the mining communities?

atozed Marc de Berner

Which particular policies are "neo-nazi"? The people of Crimea will not be voting in this particular election because they are being prevented from voting by the Russians occupying Crimea. Crimean Tatar activists are being harassed and arrested by the occupying authorities because they prefer for their (historical) homeland to be a part of the Ukraine. As for the "legitimate government" of the Ukraine being toppled by a coup, one should mention that Yanukovych and his cronies had transferred vast amounts of money from the state to their private accounts abroad (with the connivance of Western banks, of course) by fixing state business contracts. The question here is whether it is legitimate to stage an uprising against such a government rather than wait and vote in rigged elections which would be impossible to win. I say that it is legitimate to oust an increasingly corrupt and malign government when the chances of fair elections disappear.

Nobul downthepublewis , permalink

Accusing others of being Russian village idiots after too many vodkas (Guardian censors did not find this offensive) while your name is "down the pub Lewis" , lol, what s Freudian slip, lol(the censors found this offensive!)

Nobul atozed , permalink

The Crimeans never wanted to be part of Ukraine. It was "given" to the Ukraine SSR by a communist dictator without asking the people, the Crimeans had been voting for independence since 1991. for your information, the historic home land of the Crimean Tatars is Mongolia.

Doom Sternz, permalink

Americans offered financial and informational assistance in the making of the "right sector " a fully fledged political party. The U.S. proposed a form of the Ukrainian radical party with a political platform, party structure and network of branches throughout Ukraine.

The Right Sector is fascist neo Nazi party. They are the militia's that are committing mass murder, genocide, torture and rape in Ukraine.

srmttmrs Doom Sternz , permalink

Yep - and the separatists are angels who bring peace and love to all. Rank idiocy and exactly the sort of propaganda spewed by BOTH sides. So, when looking for facts, consider who prospers, who gains? Russia, Russia and Russia. That does not make their opponents innocent, but lets keep it real.

Doom Sternz srmttmrs

Ukraine is a rogue state. It was a violent, armed coup spearheaded by right sector militants that placed Yatsenyuk into power in the first place, along with the Neo-Nazi political front Svoboda, and paved the way for fraudulent elections that predictably yielded a pro-US-EU client regime. From fabricating an "invasion," to claims of "threatened" lives, to the labeling of Russians as "subhuman," Yatsenyuk has recited fully the script of Nazism used to justify its various historical crimes against humanity.

Its no coincidence that the CIA (a terror organisation) is in Kiev, its no coincidence that the Rand corporation have documented the necessary steps to commit genocide in the eastern federations prior to the events.Its no coincidence that Victoria Nuland indicated the US had invested $5 billion on a regime change in Ukraine, and its no coincidence that neo Nazi organisations were enlisted to action the ethnic cleansing.

After the Maidan the leaders of two right wing fascist organisation were rewarded with control of four ministries.

For example Andriy Parubiy, co-founder of the fascist Social National Party, which later changed its name to Svoboda became the new top commander of the National Defense and Security Council. (covering the military, police, courts and intelligence apparatus). Dmytro Yarosh, Right Sector commander is now second-in-command of the National Defense and Security Council.

Notice how they never talk about the Ukraine regular Army, its always Oligarch battalions, ie Azov Battalion etc, or they are Government militia's, these militia's are made up of Right Sector fascists. The regular Ukraine Army has been sidelined as it will not murder its own countrymen.

srmttmrs Doom Sternz , permalink

Like I said, who gains. Russia gets Crimea (massivly strategic value) and will absorb Ukraine over the next five years or so. I am sure Russia will hold War Crime Trials with predictable results.

Bud Peart , permalink

So I take it people in the regions engulfed in civil war wont be able to vote?

oleteo , permalink

The election campaign was doubtfull from the beginning in this country affected by the virus of neo-nazism in the form of russophobia

srmttmrs oleteo , permalink

So if I am opposed to the Putin regime and thus Russian foreign policy, I am a neo-nazi?? FFS.

Doom Sternz srmttmrs , permalink

Petro Poroshenko is a war criminal.

We all know that when Poroshenko committed to an illegal war against his fellow countrymen that there was never going to be a path back. He expected he would win and it did not concern him at all that he was committing crimes against humanity. He had no concerns about sending neo Nazi militia's to the east to murder his fellow countrymen. And his US masters demanded it.

Poroshenko and Yatsenyuk are traitors of Ukraine.

HHeLiBe Doom Sternz , permalink

When Poroshenko won 55 percent of the Presidential vote outright it is a pretty safe bet that Ukrainians will vote in a West leaning Government.

oleteo Doom Sternz , permalink

The outcome will be the same because the Ukie politics are based on hatred and corruption,they are seeking what to ask and where like beggars

Davo3333 HHeLiBe , permalink

But the 55% was on a very low turnout and so support for him was way under 50%. This time the two eastern pro Russian republics which have effectively now succeeded from the Ukraine are no longer included in the Ukraine's voting figures so most of the remainder are voting to be able to one day join the EU, but in the meantime the EU is not prepared to give meaningful financial assistance to the Ukraine so there will be hard times for the Ukrainian people coming up in the near future. Look at the Poles who went to the UK in their hundreds of thousands and are now either on the dole or working on very low wages, That is what the Ukrainians can look forward to if they manage to get into the EU.

Dreikaiserbund, permalink

This is the best message that the people of Ukraine can send to Putin and his mercenaries.

Doom Sternz Dreikaiserbund , permalink

You are a fascist, no?

This is not of Russia's making, this is a US/NATO war against working class people in the Donbass. This election is a battle of the billionaires, nothing more.

A pro EU government is guaranteed because this fascist government rules with unmitigated brutality. If you stand up against them you get murdered.

oleteo Dreikaiserbund , permalink

You can say nothing for all people. Remember Georgia and what is there now. Where's American puppet-president? Wanted for crimes. Let's wait

ID075732 , permalink

This vote is just grandstanding the failed politics of Ukraine's kleptocrat oligarchs, but the US and IMF need it to legitimise their continued meddling. I can't imagine much will change.

HollyOldDog Trudi Goater , permalink

A Right Sector spokesman interviewed on the BBC said that if he doesn't get what he and his compatriots want than dumping polliticians in dustbins will be replaced by hanging them from lampposts. Strike that country off my holiday list.

Nobul HollyOldDog , permalink

That's already pretty civilized for this lot, their grand daddies used to burn whole villages in barns.

LiBeRaCl , permalink

"Nuland's cookies" have totally ruined Ukraine. Ukrainians are hated by Russians for killing thier people in Donbass and sanctions after "Rescue Crimeans" operation. They are hated by most of Polish people for the Bandera flags (flags which were used on Maidan and during The Volyn' Massacre in which thousands of Polish children and women were tortured and killed by Ukrainians). They are hated by most of The Europeans who want to live in peace, because everyone can see that noting has changed inside the country - one oligarchic clan altered another, more radical one. Nowadays political establishment of Ukraine are suiciders - sooner or later they will be caught and sentenced, if not be able to escape to The US.

Nobul LiBeRaCl , permalink

The U.S. would only take in Yats and Porkie, the rest would have to hang from lamp posts on the Maidan.

moncur , permalink

Good luck to Ukraine. They will need it. An empty treasury, a defeated army, an aggressive neighbour next door. There is no justice in the world.

Dennis Levin moncur , permalink

You broke it. You fix it.

Doom Sternz

permalink

Its obvious that the Kiev fascist militia's continue to indiscriminately shell civilian populations against the Minsk agreement.

The Ukrainian army has been committing gross human rights violations against civilians in violation of the Geneva Convention. Specifically violations of Articles 3, 4, 5, 7 and 11 of the 1948 UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights and of Article 3 of the Convention on Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide of December 9, 1948.

Poroshenka is a war criminal.

Oskar Jaeger Doom Sternz , permalink

It is equally obvious that Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine continue attacking Ukrainian troops at or near the Donetsk airport, and have been doing it all along, disregarding the so-called ceasefire. Does the Geneva Convention even apply to armed terrorists?

Матвей Тарасов Oskar Jaeger , permalink

They defend their homes and their relatives against armed bandits. Does Geneva convention permit this?

LiBeRaCl Oskar Jaeger , permalink

According to Minsk Agreement Donetsk Airport down to Peski village should be under control of DNR, not Ukrainians. How about that? Who is responsible for not leaving the Airport? And who is responsible for civilian deaths after ceasefire caused by Ukrainian rocket system shellings?

Canigou

permalink

This election is like the band starting up a new tune on the Titanic as its starts to slide beneath the waves.

Yes, real change is coming soon to the Ukraine--- but in the form of no heating oil, no jobs, militias running amok, rampant inflation, savage IMF austerity, continued civil war, famine, more mayhem in the Rada and riots in the Maidan. It is too late to save the Ukraine. It's future will bring disintegration as a country and, for many people, regression to pre-industrial subsistence farming. The Haiti of Europe.

sodtheproles Canigou , permalink

Yet with a little goodwill and common sense it could have become the Switzerland of eastern Europe

Nobul sodtheproles , permalink

Yet good will and common sense are completely obscent in Kiev, Brussels and Washington.

Rich_N , permalink

Yet more elections and red tape? More squandering of public funds to appoint a bunch of pre determined cronies to positions where they can line their pockets from the state treasury (if there is anything left).

Maybe poroshenko's priorities should be ending the war by stopping his military cluster bombing cities in the east, trying to do something about the economy which is likely to see a double digit decline or at least try and arrange to restore the gas supply before winter by giving the Russians the money the eu gave him to pay his gas bills with! Or did he lose that somewhere?

Krustallos Rich_N , permalink

If you don't like Poroshenko I should have thought you would welcome an election as the best opportunity to get rid of him. Asking the Ukrainian people who they think should represent them actually seems like quite an important priority at the moment. Unless your agenda is to rebuild the Russian Empire I suppose.

Mo Moby Krustallos , permalink

Not when the fascists will come to power.

ToddPalant Krustallos , permalink

I wonder what your agenda might be. Since you are talking about "asking the people", they should have asked Ukrainians beforehand whether they would like their country to be sunk even further, all for the price for a long, very long wait for an unlikely EU invitation. Today's elections are not going to be democratic because parties have been made illegal, the opposition have been terrorized. In many electoral districts in Eastern Ukraine people will not be able to vote because the "authorities" claim they could not find enough people to man the election committees. As for my agenda, I believe in a multi polar world with the US, China and Russia in a political and military stalemate. Checks and Balances to avoid a monopolar global US superiority.

LiBeRaCl, permalink

The most clear and objective reflections of the Ukrainian Govt and Pres which came to power after Maidan are the laws issued by them. If you are really interested in Ukraine just go through the drafts of the laws. I wonder if you still will be supporting Maidaners after the reading.

madsttdk LiBeRaCl , permalink

I actually have. I suppose you are referring to the one that would ban Russian being taught in schools.

I agree. that was indeed a despicable move instigated by the die-hard nationalist in the Ukrainian Parliament. Fortunately, the moderates came to their senses and repealed that law. What other, if any, unfair or ill-conceived laws are you referring to?

Because it seems to me that there have been an awful lot of sense to the legislative work in the Ukrainain Parliament apart from that awful law denying Russian in schools.

I would love to know.

Jerome Fryer madsttdk , permalink

That law was not signed by the acting President, so didn't go into effect. But it was passed by the parliament. (It's a mystery why the Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine became opposed to Kiev, eh?) It isn't about schooling, either, but about recognition of status as an official language.

LiBeRaCl madsttdk , permalink

There are dozens of such laws, but the most recent one is just a complete collapse of any concept of Law. I am talking about so-called "lustration law". It is a total farce by itself, but if you look into the exceptions you just won't believe that such laws are possible in principle in nowadays world. By this law the governing elite can dismiss any person from his position and the only thing why they can not be dismissed themselves by the same law is that there are exceptions written by their hads. Complete delirium.

kowalli, permalink

You will see bloodmess after elections, ukrainian-Nazi army will try again kill freedom fighters. Thanks to your western leaders civilians are dying now.

NKVDhunter kowalli , permalink

Thanks to Putin many Ukrainians have died. Without Russia's armed invasion, the deaths would not have happened.

GoodmansParadox NKVDhunter , permalink

West Ukraine has invaded East Ukraine. West Ukrainian militias are killing East Ukrainian civilians. There was no invasion by Russia.

Матвей Тарасов , permalink

About "democracy" elections. There are leaks of phone conversations between Zhvaniya and Kolomoyskiy/Korban about falsifying results. Just hear that.

Natalia Volkova , permalink

I got a surprise this morning, swedish newspaper DN published the article with a title:" Ukrainian populist stand out with violence and threats" (Ukrainsk populist sticker ut med vεld och hot) about Lyashko. Something is definitely going on, I think, at least in Sweden, they will avoid to shake hands with such person (but DN wrote he can be the next prime minister).

Kiselev Natalia Volkova , permalink

They have to. Because he is gay.

Natalia Volkova Kiselev , permalink

It'll be difficult, because they still trying to isolate Sverigedemokraterna(party, which got around 13% of votes at last Riksdag election)- And they are nothing in compare with Lyashko party.

Alexander Bach madsttdk , permalink

Good analysis. I must note here that not every election in Ukraine was admitted as fair in by the international observers. The presidential election in 2004 was declared fake and the west urged Ukraine to stick with the pro-western candidate Yushchenko. Who ended up with 5% support. As of freedoms in Russia you should take it into account that at the times when the west is happy with Russian elections the Russians themselves live in poverty and humiliation. Now that the Russians live probably better than ever the west is unhappy. You talk about freedom of speech in Russia but compare it to freedom of speech in Ukraine: the journalists being beaten and murdered, the channels are closed etc. What place does ukraine hold in the rating? As of the objectiveness of those ratings and generally the information presented to the western auditory here's a good example: a few weeks ago there was a marching in Moscow in support of the Ukrainian government, a few thousand participants. Have you seen that news in the western media? Me neither. I have checked all the MSM. I found a single sentence about it on the bbc inside an article about something else, and a little article on the cnn. That cnn article ended with the words that it's not clear it anyone was arrested or beaten (because no one was). These words give a hint why there's so little interest in the west: if the news shows that Putin is not prosecuting those who think different, you shouldn't know about it. Otherwise it will be everywhere

madsttdk Alexander Bach , permalink

Well,, actually I saw the demonstration on several news channels including CNN. So why you apparently have not been able to find it, I really do not know.

As far the 2004 elections in Ukraine goes, there were allegations of voting fraud. That led to an independent investigation by the OSCE, who subsequently deemed it had been well within acceptable standards.

Where are you getting your information from? Not Russian media, I hope.

Doom Sternz

permalink

US in Ukraine has declared war on Russia, they funded neo Nazi's in Kiev to overthrow a freely elected government and then went about blaming Russia for the destabilisation. As we know from past experience, Washington will pursue its strategy relentlessly while shrugging off public opinion, international law or the condemnation of adversaries and allies alike.

The pattern, of course, is unmistakable. It begins with sanctimonious finger-wagging, economic sanctions and incendiary rhetoric, and quickly escalates into stealth bombings, drone attacks, unlawful detention and torture, massive destruction of civilian infrastructure, millions of fleeing refugees, decimated towns and cities, death squads, wholesale human carnage, vast environmental devastation, and the steady slide into failed state anarchy; all of which is accompanied by the repetition of state propaganda spewed from every corporate bullhorn in the western media.

After all isnt this how it happened in Iraq, Libya, Afganistan, Syria etc etc etc

madsttdk Doom Sternz , permalink

Even if what you claim were even remotely connected to reality, how exactly does that justify Putins invasion, annexation and interference in a souvereign nation and the breaking ofg international law?

The "The US is bad" narrative is getting old. And besides, two wrongs can never make a right. That is a morally indefensible position. So Russia is - at best - no better

Mo Moby madsttdk , permalink

There is no invasion, annexation and interference in a sovereign nation and the breaking of international law. It's all in your muddled mind. ... and no need to thank me for pointing out your numerous spelling mistakes.

madsttdk Mo Moby , permalink

Oh Moby, you are wrong - so very wrong.

I apologize for the typos - it's pure sloppiness. I am watching a game.

Perhaps I should focus on one thing at the time - so as not to offend your spelling aestethics

ToddPalant NKVDhunter , permalink

Condolences to all Ukrainians who are "voting" at gunpoint today. R.I.P. for your young country that had the potential for a much better future. One day you'll understand that the murderers were those bearing gifts. IMF loans, fracking contracts, western "investments".

Doom Sternz

permalink

In Crimea democracy actually worked as intended. The people of Crimea are living in peace free of neo Nazi fascism. No one died and it was mostly peaceful, you have to admire the way Moscow did it. They supported democracy, the will of the people.

Its when democracy is subverted that people die, the people of the Donbass who held a plebiscite and are being denied democracy are being murdered by neo Nazi militia's in an attempt to subvert their free will.

It is the Wests fascism that is killing people, it is the Wests fascism that is denying people the freedom at the ballot box which according to the United Nations is every individuals basic right.

Stop the Genocide of the Donbass people. Recognise the will of the Donbass people and allow them to live in peace and be free of the fascists neo Nazi's in Kiev.

ToddPalant Doom Sternz , permalink

I do agree with the spirit of your post. Sure, the US standard practice since WW2, has been to employ fascist groups to overthrow legitimate governments in support of its "national interests". The sad thing for the Donbass area is that the present "leadership" is remotely controlled by certain Russian circles. These circles did not allow the military advance of the DNR and LNR when the situation turned in their favour. Neither did they allow the unification of the two entities under a uniform military and political leadership. The combatants on the ground who are a mixed group of socialists, nationalists and soldiers of fortune, bitterly complain about the situation as they are doing the fighting and the dying. They are accusing their political leaders of boycotting their efforts. It is painfully obvious that oligarchs from both Russia and Ukraine have a hand in this and do not really care about the deaths and the destruction. There will be plenty of business when the time of "reconstruction" comes. As things stand in the Donbass there is no viable future. As for the rest of Ukraine things got even worse. A police state run by private armies, terrorized citizens, terrorized opposition leaders, dramatically worsened job prospects, certainly no chance of anything close to a Democratic Election today. Another fine piece of work by the defenders of "democracy" and the "free world".

fritsd Doom Sternz , permalink

"Its when democracy is subverted that people die, (...)"

Agreed.

"(...) the people of the Donbass who held a plebiscite and are being denied democracy (...)"

That's so far off the truth as I understand it that it makes me sick.

As I read it (in the Western media) the people of the Donbass one morning had new leaders who took over their cities, and since then denied them the vote in the presidential election, and it wouldn't surprise me if the DPR and LPR leaders also denied them the vote in the Rada election today.

Yet, you call them "the people of the Donbass who held a plebiscite". I translate that in my language as "volksraadpleging". I don't remember that that has happened. In fact, the people of the Donbass have been intimidated (some election authorities beaten or murdered) so that they were *PREVENTED* from holding a plebiscite.

I rest of yur sentence reads "(...) are being murdered by neo Nazi militia's in an attempt to subvert their free will."I won't complain about your description of their current plight although I disagree. But the middle of the sentence was WAY off.

"Recognise the will of the Donbass people"Yes, but I have no idea how to do that. the DPR and LPR leaders are not going to step down voluntarily, and the Ukraine army is not the right agent to do it either. It will have to depend on the Donbass people themselves to get rid of their current oppressors.

ConradLodziak , permalink

This is shadow theatre to please the the interests of the US. Go ahead Ukraine - elect a neo-nazi parliament. Democracy my arse.

[Oct 30, 2014] Republicans confident of midterm success as apathetic America switches off by Dan Roberts

Quote: "Don't blame the voters. If you're looking for someone to blame, how about asking the Democrats -- who appear to know why the GOP sucks -- to either lead or get the hell out of the way. They are occupying the opposition spot, but they are unwilling to take the natural positions that their criticism of the Republicans would imply they should take. In fact, the National Democratic Party appears to do AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE to oppose the Republican agenda, while still keeping enough faithful voters around to prevent some other party from taking its place. If there wasn't already such a placebo party, big money would probably invent it."
Oct 30, 2014 | http://www.theguardian.com | Comments

BaronVonAmericano , link

Is there a difference between the Republicans and Democrats? Yes.

Is it enough to generate excitement and make the public feel like they are truly charting this nation's course with their votes. Not a chance in hell.

Don't blame the voters. If you're looking for someone to blame, how about asking the Democrats -- who appear to know why the GOP sucks -- to either lead or get the hell out of the way. They are occupying the opposition spot, but they are unwilling to take the natural positions that their criticism of the Republicans would imply they should take.

In fact, the National Democratic Party appears to do AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE to oppose the Republican agenda, while still keeping enough faithful voters around to prevent some other party from taking its place.

If there wasn't already such a placebo party, big money would probably invent it.

StocktonGeographer , link
We live in the media market of Sacramento, CA, and the only TV advertising is for the Congressional district some 50-60 miles north of us, which the Democrat won by a narrow margin two years ago, defeating the sitting republican congressman. The TV ads are endless, and the money being spent on behalf of the Republican former congressman in the effort to retake the seat seems monumental. There are at least 6 or more other congressional districts covered by the Sacramento TV stations, but not a single ad concerning any of them. Crazy, and gross, and a mindless distortion of democracy. But there you are; that is modern USA
Eric Moller , link

I hope all those middle class people who are holding those signs have brought plenty of lube ..Because once Congress goes RED be ready for a serious reaming of the Middle Class once again by the GOP ... There not quite done yet siphoning of the what wealth remains in the American Middle Class .. They got real close during the Wall Street Meltdown but did not quiet get it all .. America is poised to make.... yes the same mistake again and again and again .. Why one may ask ?? Because we are NUMBER ONE and NUMBER TWO .. dont forget lots of Lube ......The GOP will love it it's petroleum product after all ...

SeeNOevilHearNOevil , link

Either way, they argue, the White House loses. "He'll become the president of no," another GOP congressman confidently told the Guardian, revelling in the prospect of reversing the insult that dogged House Republicans when they were the ones blocking Democratic legislative efforts.

These clowns are still out of touch with reality...they keep saying no to everything and believe they're paying no price for it...but somehow if the Democrats say no, that it harms them.

I think you'll find that whenever the Democrats resist Republican pressure like the threats to shut government down, their popularity soars....its not about WHO says the 'NO'...it's about who says 'NO' to WHAT. They don't get it....

RoyRoger , link

Republicans confident of midterm success ..........

If I was an American citizen (and I'm extremely grateful that I am not) I would not insult/humiliate myself by participating in the Corporate corrupt bought and paid for, White House, politician's Corporate general elections.

It makes no difference who the Corporate America is on the Election list:

Republican's; Democrats; Disneyland; Hollywood; Crime incorporated...

Corporate politics has taken over in Corporate America. Voting is but just a mythical action. Just a load of (taken for a ride) old bollocks.

Because the Republicans just like the Tories in British politics are always in control and New Labour demonstrated this fact in 1997 when they embraced Tory Thatcher's financial philosophy for thirteen years.

A One Party State !! That loves to arm and finance dictators across the world and still clocking up coup d' etat's.

GoatyGoY

The decision not to vote in an election arises from the mistaken belief that just because things are bad now, that they could not be worse later.

SFChutzpah, link
Will a republican takeover of the senate make a difference? You bet it will! Suddenly, the president (and I use the term loosely) will become the "president of no." Republicans will set a governing agenda, the country will be better off and in 2016, Romney might be our new president.
Catori Shadi -> SFChutzpah , link

You forgot the step before that.

The Democrats have experienced record numbers of filibusters. They are very well-schooled on their use.

As for the Republicans. They have NO POLICIES that they have shared with anyone. What we will see is the continued attempts to be the anti-Democrats.

laredo33, link
1. The "mainstream" media may be ignoring the election because they tend not to report anything that might make Republicans look good.
2. Republicans should not be sure of anything for they are skilled at gaining defeat from what looks to be a sure victory.
3. Local ads against Republicans have used quotes (if you can read the very small print) from as long ago as 15 years and imply they were said yesterday. Some bounce back on that.
4. Interesting that most election story references to "big" money always mention the Koch brothers, but not the likes of George Soros, et al. Locally, the Democrats raised and outspent to Republicans by as much as 12/1.
5. There ought to be a total spending limit for a political campaign and all campaigns should be limited to 60-90 days prior to an election.
6. Too bad we don't have the leadership to create a viable Centrist Party. We need options.
ryan2293, link
Chomsky said it best when he described Obama as a moderate Republican.

The whole scene in America is dragged so far to the right that it doesn't really matter which you vote for. You either have extremist republicans who proudly hate poor people, women, non-white people and people who think guns aren't the answer to everything, or you have the more moderate Republicans who are comparable to British Tories.

And you (quite rightly) thought things were bad here!!

laredo33 -> ryan2293
Interesting that Chomsky 1) made his riches being a capitalist while condemning capitalism and 2) never chose to live in a society that more closely practiced what he preached compared to where he did choose to live.
ryan2293 -> laredo33
1) how is he a capitalist?

2) why should he leave the country? Do you have to leave the country when you don't like the government? If you don't (which you don't) then you're a hypocrite and if you do then you're an idiot, the choice is yours. And there is no libertarian socialist society that he could move to anyway! Where do you suggest?

PATROKLUS00
The American electorate will deserve exactly what they will get, just as the morons in Kansas who swallowed the right-wing nonsense about trickle-down economics, slashing taxes and cutting budgets have seen their state plummet in credit ratings, burn through a billion dollars into massive debt, and debilitate their educational system at all levels.

Yet, the races are still close in that benighted state since its dyed-red voters will vote for the vacuous, destructive and exploitative ideology of the right in spite of all contrary evidence. The broader American electorate is of the same cloth and will reap the same "benefits" as the antediluvian Kansans.

The only way all too many American voters can learn is by experience, since they are incapable of thinking about anything with any reasonable level of knowledge and reason. So I am all for the GOTP taking control, now and in 2016. It will, in all likelihood, benefit me, but not the nation. I am just too weary of trying to get the first world's most politically ignorant, indolent, incompetent and inciteable voters to act in their own interest or that of their nation. Let them reap the whirlwind of their stupidity.

Herman Munster -> PATROKLUS00
Ah, and the democrat states like California, New York and Illinois are just rolling in excess money because they're fiscally responsible. And their education systems are churning out Rhodes Scholars, every child is above average, there's no poverty or racial disparity, majority democrat states are just going great guns.
BaronVonAmericano -> PATROKLUS00

I get your frustration. But I think a big component of the problem is that there is no genuine opposition party. Democrats could contrast themselves with the GOP in ways that would a) get their base excited; b) get independent votes (based on issue polling) and c) be good for the nation. But to do so would conflict with donors.

So it would appear that Democrats -- the only other viable option than the awful Republicans -- would rather sell out their base, sell out the nation, and lose seats in power in order to please their donors.

That probably explains why so many people don't want to vote.

[Oct 29, 2014] A classic Guardian editorial celebrating the elections in Ukraine – Pro-Europe! Pro-Democracy! – skillfully passing over awkward stuff

The skill with with Guardian honchos FUBAR truth is simply amazing...
marknesop.wordpress.com

Fern , October 29, 2014 at 5:35 am

A classic Guardian editorial celebrating the elections in Ukraine – Pro-Europe! Pro-Democracy! – skilfully passing over awkward stuff like how banning a party that millions voted for in previous elections furthers democracy.

Not much remains of Ukraine's old politics. The pro-Russian parties have been all but extinguished. The influence of the oligarchs, whose capture of economic and political power was at the root of the corruption that bedevilled Ukraine after independence, has been diminished.
True, the president is an oligarch, but he seems, on his record so far, to be a reformed one. The vote also demonstrated that the far-right elements around which Moscow weaves its dark tales of resurgent fascism remain relatively minor actors on the political stage.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/27/guardian-view-ukraine-election-farewell-old-politics

The Guardian seems to be unaware that nazi and neo-nazi views are not confined to members of parties like Svoboda, that similar views are held by many members of far more mainstream parties. This is something that Russian analyst and commentator Dimitry Babich has been saying for a while – candidates whose views would be at home in Svoboda or Right Sector chose to stand for other parties in earlier elections because it increased their chances of getting into the Rada. He made this point again in a recent interview with RT:

Now of course the Western media is spreading two lies. The first lie is that since the Right Sector and the Svoboda, former national socialists, didn't get into the parliament and it means there are no extremist nationalists in this new Ukrainian parliament. That is not true: there are many people with Nazi views who are represented in the party of Prime Minister Yatsenyuk, in the party of President Poroshenko and also in the Batkivshchyna Party, and in the radical party – basically, in all the factions except the opposition.

http://rt.com/op-edge/200123-ukraine-election-vote-nationalism/

As far as Poroshenko being a 'reformed oligarch', the best critique of the article comes from commentator 'harryphilby':-)

The Guardian editor is doing his best to polish a wet turd.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

dany8538, October 29, 2014 at 6:55 am
How ridiculous is this article ? I mean the oligarchs part is the most hilarious. It is abundantly clear that the oligarchs have even MORE power than before the uprising. People like Kolomoisky now command personal armies and basically are feudal lords fighting over territory with other lords. To me this is the biggest irony in all of this. In their "noble" attempt to purge the oligarchs they have actually made them stronger than ever.
Correct me if I am wrong , but i think even in the dark 90's the russian oligarchs did not have battalions of psychos armed to the teeth.
astabada, October 29, 2014 at 7:02 am
@dany8538

You are correct, and indeed what happened (and what is happening) in the Ukraine is a vision of what could have been of Russia itself, had it continued on the path traced by Yeltsin.

marknesop, October 29, 2014 at 7:15 am
I am bowled over that The Graun even referred to him as an oligarch – albeit he is "one of the good ones" who has "gone straight", ha, ha. This must be what passes for "gritty realism" at that venue. Western newspapers refer to him almost uniformly as a "tycoon" or, more lately, a "magnate". Someone must have put down their yogurt whirl long enough to use the thesaurus.

[Oct 29, 2014] The Guardian view on Ukraine's elections: farewell to the old politics

Oct 27, 2014 | The Guardian

Sehome

Could we look at the Forest instead of trees? The real issue, genuinely sinister, is the US State Dept and it's virulently russophobic actions, first in literally orchestrating the overthrow of the legitimate Ukraine leadership earlier in the year . Victoria Nuland calls the shots, John Kerry jumps to her rhetoric and bloviates to her
song sheet and Obama? just knee jerk reactions. Smart, but just a Chicago lawyer of minor
achievement, academically and otherwise, and totally ignorant of Slavic culture, society, politics or language.
(as is Kerry). The neo-fascist power in Ukraine is real, but the real "fascist" threat is in Washington, using
Ukraine as its surrogate in a war against Russia, clearly already declared. Putin has been overly restrained, I believe, and should take stronger military action.

Secondly, the Surrender on May 9, 1945 in Berlin did NOT end the war against fascism-naziism -Russia is now fighting World War 2.5 - Ukrainian, Galician, Polish, Rumanian and others actively
continued the fight for the swastika, the Soviets chased down some of the worst, finally killing the notorious Stepan Bandera in 1959, but that hardly ended the threat.

If you are yawning now I don't blame you, but it is now the US State Dept,, out of control, with its enormous barrel of cash, much of it "off the books," its unrestrained secret wars, collusion with and support for CIA "actions", which are the real threat - and the EU's compliance, especially Merkel's, surprises me a little.

Germany benefits from Russian trade. Nuland and Catherine Ashton want that destroyed.

Vlad Tatarsky

The vote also demonstrated that the far-right elements around which Moscow weaves its dark tales of resurgent fascism remain relatively minor actors on the political stage

Ha-ha: this statement would nicely fit the article about killing Ernst Roehm's guys in Germany in June 1934: "Germany frees from fascism!"

Dmitry Yarosh (most far right element) is nicely a senator! All chieftains of the private armies of Kolomoisky and Lyashko (like Semenchenko or Melnichuk) are now elected being a part of the first three winners of the elections. Well yes, recently moderate Tyagnibok was sacrificed to say formal NO to fascism towards EU, but it is just called rebranding!

ralphrzz

I am dismayed at the Guardian's inability to respect its readers. This editorial reminds me of Reader's Digest in the 50s: puerile, cartoon-like, and servile to brutes.

I can only hope you really believe this nonsense; otherwise you are monsters.

Vlad Tatarsky

well yes, I was also surprised by such language: 100% of cliches and les-bon-gens-m'ont-dit-considerations

Z'ing Sui

"The influence of the oligarchs, whose capture of economic and political power was at the root of the corruption that bedevilled Ukraine after independence, has been diminished"

As I understand the "Radical party" leader Lyashko claims he and his family have received threats from Kolomoisky, an oligarch who also happens to hold a position of government, which is supposed to be illegal under Ukrainian law. There are also loud claims the Kolomoisky's money are the reason Yatsenyuk's People's Front campaign has been even better funded than the President's own party. I swear these editorials seem to get almost as bad as those on the Washington Post.

I've also done my share of googling, and if you add to that to the apparent fact that the Opposition Block who is supposed to consist of former President's supporters turned out to be the most popular party in the east of Ukraine despite the war, the thesis that "pro-Russian parties have been all but extinguished" seems to be the simple outcome of millions of that party's voters being de facto outside of Kiev's jurisdiction. It would be a curious fact to mention in the article on Ukrainian elections, I should say.

martiniano

"There is weariness in some European capitals about the cost of putting pressure on Russia. It is true that sanctions can have a boomerang effect on European business and trade. "

I wonder what will be the cost of war to remove Russia from Ukraine? Forget the blood and life costs. Will the hard financials of war be worse than the impact of sanctions on European capitals?

sodtheproles

Open the floodgates and let them compete with the Poles, Bulgarians and Romanians, to swamp us, on zero hours contracts. Maybe we can employ some of their experts in crowd control, when the natives here get restless. After all, the mayor of London already has the water cannon, now we just need the enthusiastic head crackers of the Azov and Donbass battalions

truecomrade

" chocolate king , or just shit wrapped in silver paper..???

truecomrade

what about some respect for the banned communists and the millions that boycotted the election, my grandfather along with millions of others died fighting the evil of fascism, yet this newspaper along with the rest of western media now openly supports a fascist regime , I have no wishes to see a fascist run country become a member of the eu, just because it suits the u.s geopolitical agenda ;, it,s time the e.u had the balls to tell the us to sort out its own problems and stop using nato as its own private army ..???

sodtheproles truecomrade

EU? Balls? In the words of Victoria Nuland, 'special' US something or other .......

[Oct 27, 2014] Ukraine election a win for president and allies, early count suggests by Shaun Walker

Party of war till bitter end led by pro-Washington candidate "Yayts" defeated pro-Washington party of less war by "Porki" (there is no party of peace among the winners). The US Embassy achieved the main goal of creation of system of control in which nether Poroshenko can do anything without Yatsenyuk approval, nor vice versa. That mean that the embassy remain the real power broker behind the curtain. Divide and conquer strategy in action. Now the Ukrainian government is essentially a puppet of Western powers, no matter what is the composition of parties in the Parliament. Puppet President and puppet Prime minister are guarantied to Ukrainians. Such a perverted form or neoliberal democracy... Top 0.01% always comes to the top.
Oct 27, 2014 | The Guardian
chacqueschirac , 27 October 2014 7:40am

Yatseniuk is liked in the west for his commitment to deep reforms and astute stewardship of the economy which has been wrecked by the separatist conflict in the eastern regions

Beyond satire.

bobble07 chacqueschirac, 27 October 2014 7:48am
Well highlighted, absolute load of shite
Umut Gezer chacqueschirac, 27 October 2014 8:03am
What would you expect from the NSA branch Reuters?
Ernekid , 27 October 2014 7:42am
If I get a Penny for every time the phrase 'Neo-Nazi' will be used on this thread, I'll sure have a lot of Pennies
braciole Ernekid, 27 October 2014 7:46am
Perhaps now that Nazi Party (aka Pravyi Sektor) and the Fascist Party (Svoboda) have polled so badly, they will lose the ministerial posts (Interior and Defence) they currently control. However, somehow I doubt it.
bobble07 Ernekid, 27 October 2014 7:47am

This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.

Umut Gezer braciole, 27 October 2014 8:05am
You call it bad? i think they did very well and since no party got majority Poroshenko has no choice but again distribute the power. If he wants to be alive.
jgbg Ernekid, 27 October 2014 9:11am

If I get a Penny for every time the phrase 'Neo-Nazi' will be used on this thread, I'll sure have a lot of Pennies

Yes - because it's really funny to see the thugs of Right Sector and Svoboda attacking people on the street, throwing MPs into bins, parading the streets in torchlight procession, etc. - all filmed and uploaded by themselves.

seamuspadraig braciole, 27 October 2014 11:18am

Maybe, but realize that these groups could be even more dangerous outside the government than inside of it. And with the war in the Donbass winding down, Porky no longer has any front to throw them at. Interesting times...

Reynardus . braciole, 27 October 2014 11:35am

The far right voted for Yatsenyuk. That was the strategy knowing that they cannot get what they want on their own. The east pulled in 10%. Impressive, if you consider their campaign machine is devastated, their candidates are intimidated and physically assaulted, and the eastern most regions did not even vote.

PeterBrit , 27 October 2014 7:43am
We don't want the Ukraine in Europe. The EU is now a fucking mess anyway, after the premature introduction into it of impoverished eastern European economies, the last bloody thing the EU needs now is the Ukraine in it as well. And what is it with right-wing east European governments in Poland and the Baltic states desperately trying to drag the EU into a conflict with Russia, for their own ends? Poland and the Baltic states hate Russia, for historical reasons. It's sod all to do with us. I used to be a big EU fan, but the combination of domination by useless governments in France and Germany, and Eastern Europe dragging the EU down economically and dragging it politically into a pointless conflict with Russia is destroying the EU. What a fucking mess.
Plataea , 27 October 2014 7:48am

No doubt the Russian will denounce the elections as flawed & unfair - usual stuff. Hopefully the new gov will make a better fist of things than Yanukoich's bunch.

Beginner20 Plataea, 27 October 2014 7:53am
Russia absolutely does not care about it. Until these guys do not touch Novorossia. November 2 elections there. Focus on these events.
Swedinburgh Plataea, 27 October 2014 8:23am
Actually, Russia (ie. Tsar Putin) seems to have a grown-up working relationship with Poroshenko and probably would welcome him securing another few months as president. It's Nuland's pet "Yats" who keeps trying to put the fire out with a can of petrol.
ijustwant2say , 27 October 2014 7:59am

Not many votes for the Fascists/Nazi/Right Wing or whatever the current pejorative term is. It's almost as if Putin was just spreading toxic propaganda about Ukraine.

iamshchik ijustwant2say, 27 October 2014 8:42am
Not many votes for them indeed.

Maybe the rest of the Ukrainian electorate are not prepared to vote for parties which, despite their small size, still hold key ministerial positions and are actively supporting murdering scum like the Azov Brigade.

Putin doesn't need to spread propaganda - the murderers of Odessa spread their own neo-Nazi propaganda.

Or are you in denial and don't you believe that shit actually happened?

sjxt , 27 October 2014 8:13am
Such a drag for guardianistas and Kremlin trolls when a populace votes against the anti-Western tyrant du jour.

Enough sour grapes round here to make a shipload of vinegar.

uracan sjxt, 27 October 2014 8:23am

Western Ukraine van vote for whom they want.

However, an election cannot cleanse their leaders hands of all the innocent blood spilt.

Almost 400 civilians have died since the "ceasefire" by Ukraine government shelling of residential areas. Almost daily shelling od Donetsk by Ukie Army.

This election is like putting lipstick on a pig.

edwardrice sjxt, 27 October 2014 8:58am

when a populace votes against the anti-Western tyrant du jour.

Nobody voted for the coup.

Peabody94 , 27 October 2014 8:19am

Evidently Russia's never ending round of accusations that Ukrainians are all fascists has gone down well! Freedom of choice is a precious thing, and Ukrainians have shown that they wish to make that choice and it doesn't include being bullied by Russia.

edwardrice Peabody94, 27 October 2014 8:43am

Evidently Russia's never ending round of accusations that Ukrainians are all fascists has gone down well!

What was clear from the first weeks of the coup regimes existence was that were a number of Neo-Nazis in key regime posts and given their voter share that number was too large.

Also it's well known the the National Guard, created after the coup, recruited heavily from the Neo-Nazi Right Sector. These Neo-Nazi militias are now in the east fighting ''terrorists''.

The Right Sector spearheaded the coup, surrounding Parliament while the remaining MPs voted to remove Yanukovich.

Nobody has ever said Ukrainians are all fascists, just they were the street muscle, the enforcers, the foot soldiers and for their share of the vote had/have a disproportionate amount of power.

iamshchik edwardrice, 27 October 2014 8:53am

But some people HAVE said that "Ukrainians are all fascists". These people are the ones like Peabody94 who put false quotes into the mouths of those they disagree with.

A strawman technique used with gusto several times already in this thread by supporters of the Ukrainian regime.

PeterBrit , 27 October 2014 8:23am
Would it be too cynical to suggest that Ukrainian voters' sudden love for 'pro-Europe' parties has less to do with a passionate love of liberal democracy and more to do with a belief that if Merkel and the Poles and Baltic countries and Carl Bildt can scrape them into the EU, a massive next influx of funds from rich west european countries will eventually double their living standards, plus they'll all have the option to move to London and earm ten times more than they do now? Cynical possibly. But with an element of truth. And something bizareely that no western politician or journalist even dare, it appears, suggest.
Jacob Schψnberg PeterBrit, 27 October 2014 8:26am

very few in Ukraine dream of living in London. They dream of going to Germany and earn enough to go back and buy a house car tv .

Pappagallo , 27 October 2014 8:25am
So who pays the gas bill then? it will be the EU of course, which means UK taxpayers, If you think thats fair them get out the bunting and start singing from the rooftops by all means.
KlaasJanStar Pappagallo , 27 October 2014 8:41am

britain backed EU, america and the rest of the world when imposing sanctions on russia. Now pay the price...

Ukraine will probably join EU in 10 years. Ukrainian men will come and take British jobs, Ukrainian women will come and take British men for money and pretend to love them... That's how it works, that's what British people want: to oppose russia and to support Ukraine

stuperman KlaasJanStar, 27 October 2014 8:56am

Your fellow-travellers state that the EU will take Ukraine's natural resources and export to it detroying its industry. Negatives all around hey? Far brighter people are in the Ukrainian government than you and I. Ukraine wants to join the EU, Russia only opposes it.

edwardrice , 27 October 2014 8:28am

Though a hawk in dealings with Russia, Yatseniuk is liked in the west for his commitment to deep reforms and astute stewardship of the economy which has been wrecked by the separatist conflict in the eastern regions.

''deep reforms'' mean IMF/EU austerity that nobody in the east got to vote for because Yatseniuk and his buddies tore up the EU brokered deal back in Feb ,that would have brought in election now anyway, and grabbed power.

Grab power in a coup, get rid of the oppsotion, and the IMF and EU and pro-EU oligarchs are free to loot what's left of Ukraine.

Diav70 , 27 October 2014 8:28am

With propaganda you can accomplish anything. Just look at the Scottish referendum. I lived with a Ukrainian and he says all the channels there are saying Putin is going to invade and only the EU can help them. So they vote with fear not truth. Same as everywhere these days.

Canigou , 27 October 2014 8:33am
February 2014: violent U.S.-supported mob riots in Kiev overthrow the democratically elected government, after armed thugs storm government buildings (189 police suffer gunshot wounds at the Maidan in a three-day period).

U.S./NATO/EU reaction: all hail the democratic result!

October 2014: the Ukraine holds elections, after suppressing pro-Russian media and legal harassment of pro-Russian parties.

U.S./NATO/EU reaction: all hail the democratic result!

Does anyone see a problem here?

RVictor stuperman, 27 October 2014 9:05am

How can 100,000 protesters be organisted by the US? Where is the evidence?

Using money and organization from various NGO structures. You know, that's so natural for unorganized protests - they all come on the main square - and as a magic there is a huge scene build on, various musician come (and paid), centralized support of food, informational support. 5 "Nuland billions on NGO" make this possible.

Canigou stuperman, 27 October 2014 12:04pm
stuperman, I didn't say that the U.S. "organized" 100,000 protestors, I said the U.S. "supported" the "mob riots." This U.S. support was critical------ the U.S. could have prevented the coup if it had wanted to. Its support was financial, political, diplomatic, coordinated with similar-minded Western powers, and was both covert and overt. These are basic facts---they don't need to be sourced every time they are cited. If you need a citation, the Guardian articles on the Ukraine this year are a good starting point.

The fact is that the U.S. spent $5 billion in the Ukraine, nominally to promote "democratic values," but consistently supported armed "protestors" (thugs might be a better word) who violently overthrew an elected government. Rather than voicing any reservations over this unconstitutional coup, the U.S. immediately embraced the coup leaders and has supported them ever since. Within three weeks after the coup, Yats was in the Oval office for photo ops intended to legitimize the coup.

If these facts do not square with your ideology, perhaps your ideology should change to accommodate the facts----- because facts don't change.

PeterBrit stuperman, 27 October 2014 8:51am

No, they can sod off. We are not having Ukraine in the EU. People are sick of the EU's politically motivated Drang Nach Osten diluting the wealth of western Europe. It's over. Even in the Baltic states people earn a tenth of what they do in the UK. Trying to join such different economies in a united whole is insanity. And Ukraine is the last straw. Whatever the sodding polticians say, Ukraine ain't coming into the EU.

Hottentot , 27 October 2014 8:47am
Only two hours after the polls had closed Poroshenko said "The majority of voters were in favour of the political forces that support the president's peace plan and seek a political solution to the situation in the Donbass"

Has Poroshenko now become clairvoyant? or is he saying what he paymaster, the CIA tell him? he is extremely arrogant, particularly when Yatseniuk's People's Front and other groups have also got votes.

The US, CIA, Poroshenko has not 'got it' the people of east do not want to be part of his puppet government, and dictated to, until they accept that, there will never be any peace.

StanislavCh , 27 October 2014 8:52am
Now, with "pro-European" parties having won the elections, the EU will surely foot Ukrainian bills for gas and everything , won't they ?
hfakos StanislavCh, 27 October 2014 11:04am
Yep, that's the plan. So Hungary cannot subsidize its pensioners earning a couple of hundred euros per month and thus unable to pay their gas bill, but we are supposed to send free gas to the Kiev regime. Thankfully, the government stopped the reverse flow few a few weeks ago, which is illegal in any case. There seems to be quite a few Chocoking and Yats supporters here, they should perk out the money for Ukraine's gas bill.
DomesticExtremist , 27 October 2014 8:53am
20% of a 50% turnout.
Hardly a resounding endorsement either
of democracy or pro-European sentiment.
StanislavCh DomesticExtremist, 27 October 2014 8:56am

real turnout was about 20- 30 %. 50% turnout is a huge exaggerration.

PeterBrit DomesticExtremist, 27 October 2014 9:01am

Oh for god's sake don't piss on the parade. The western narrative from both politicians and mainstream media is that this is a triumph of western democracy, lighting a spark in the darkness of Russian-dominated Ukraine. Any questioning of the passion of Ukrainian for the pure air of western liberty, on the grounds that a) not many turned out and b) many are probably voting just becuase they think they'll get EU funds and the freedom to leave the Ukraine and work elswhere in the EU, will not be welcome.

IranCorrespondent , 27 October 2014 9:00am
"US backed elections" - Those would be democratically similar to those held in Afghanistan and the US itself......
Scipio1 , 27 October 2014 9:08am
Though a hawk in dealings with Russia, Yatseniuk is liked in the west for his commitment to deep reforms and astute stewardship of the economy which has been wrecked by the separatist conflict in the eastern regions.

Astute stewardship of the economy (sic). The Ukraine economy has been on the economic/financial ropes basically since independence under the various oligarch regimes. The civil war just made a bad situation worse. Yatsenyiuk simply wants to sell Ukraine to the IMF.

Playing to the Atlanticist gallery he also claims that Russia wants to annex the whole Ukraine. Pardon me but no-one wants to take over the Ukraine given its total basket-case economic status. Ukraine is an open ended economic/financial liability. What Putin wants is to stay out as much as possible but give the separatists the minimum support which makes Ukraine's membership of NATO impossible. What the EUSA wants is to position its Anti Balllistic Missile system on the western borders of Russia, and access to natural gas deposits to be exploited by the Burisma company which includes a choice selection on its board of directors including Yanukovich, ex-Polish PM Kwasnieski and Hunter Biden, son of US Vice President, Joe Biden.

As for the election, well another day, another western Ukrianian oligarch. Plus ca change.

ThinkFreely Scipio1, 27 October 2014 1:10pm

Excellent insight, unlike all the sheeple who simply want to voice their dislike/hatred of Putin, they are simply propaganda sponges. They can't bother to do any real research into what's really going on and find out who the real enemies are for Ukraine. All the while the real vultures wait to feast.

Beginner20 , 27 October 2014 9:10am
I assume that the US/EU expect to fish in muddy Ukrainian pond limited by ritual contributions in a couple of hundred million dollars? It's very vain. Neither China nor Russia will pay for your banquet and I afraid that IMF too.
metropolis10 , 27 October 2014 9:12am
Looks 21, 21.6 and 9.2% and shows how divided is Ukraine and why the people resist ultra nationalist parties backed by the West.
ID075732 , 27 October 2014 9:17am

Moscow went on to back separatist rebellions in Ukraine's industrialised east which have killed more than 3,700 people.

This is a completely inaccurate statement. The ant-maidan defence forces in the East of Ukraine were attacked by forces from Kiev. The civil war that ensued resulted in 3,700 deaths. The killing were related to the Kiev Junta's decision to attack the East, nothing to do with Russia's support for them

No mention either about how Proshenko and Yatseniuk's policies of ethnic cleansing have led to 1 million Ukrainian citizens being displaced. It's a sad sham of a vote and a reflection of how Ukraine has collapsed under the support of the US.

BMWAlbert ID075732 , 27 October 2014 9:26am
See the WSJ article, an American reporter in UA held territory might encounter a certain bias or resistance by locals (here, Marson spent the full day in Kuhrakhove, not Kiev, and actually spoke to people from Donbas, not government officials).

It is interesting that candid reporting is possible, also that it seems a significant proportion of the locals there openly supported DNR, in a town under UA military supervision. This is not to knock the idea of elections, but some of the realities that might be associated with the lower turn-out in some places, and there may be a linkage with those sympathies.

BBC last night finally assessed (in final terms) a 40% participation rate (how reliable is the 50% figure, and why the change, a normal question?).

[Oct 25, 2014] Vladimir Putin blames US for Islamist terrorism and Ukraine conflict Shaun Walker

From comments: IlicPetar 25 October 2014 2:28pm
However, when one British newspaper reporter asked him specifically about the repeated reports of Russian army troops operating in east Ukraine, Putin chose to ignore the question completely.
Our friend Shaun, after a pleasant conversation with Ukrainians "who refused to give his name", informs us now on unnamed journalists who ask tough questions to Putin. So probably this is about The Guardian journalist Seumas Milne. He actually asked to Putin two questions, after which Putin asked him to clarify his second question. In this sense, it turns out that Putin really avoid answering the first question. But, in the previous question, the Russian troops were not mentioned at all. However, it is better to read it yourself...
theguardian.com

Puutin said that over the past two decades, the US had behaved as if it were someone "nouveau riche who had suddenly received a lot of wealth – in this case, global leadership". Instead of using its powers wisely, said Putin, the US had created a unilateral and unfair system.

The Russian president's sentiments were nothing new, but appeared to be a more concise and concentrated version of his grievances at a time when relations between Russia and the west are more strained than at any period since the cold war.

In a terse opening statement before taking questions for nearly three hours, Putin said: "The exceptionalism of the United States, the way they implement their leadership, is it really a benefit? And their worldwide intervention brings peace and stability, progress and peak of democracy? Maybe we should relax and enjoy this splendour? No!"

Beginner20 , 24 October 2014 7:08pm
Not only. Putin directly said: the US is NOT democracy and never was. Whole speech is here.
BillGoatse -> hiiipower , 24 October 2014 9:05pm
In regards to Islamic terrorism I agree. How many potential terrorists has the USA created by starting a war which has killed over half a million people?! How can they fight a 'war on terror' by bringing terror to millions of innocent people? It's all so illogical and tragic and there seems to be no end to this killing.

It seems obvious that America isn't killing so many civilians in the middle east for the good of the middle east civilians. They have been planning this for years. This video is a much watch! It has a former four star general and supreme commander of NATO explaining America planned to invade 7 countries. Why this video isn't more widely seen is a travesty.

General Wesley Clark: Wars Were Planned - Seven C…: http://youtu.be/9RC1Mepk_Sw

nobledonkey , 24 October 2014 7:31pm
George Soros wants war with Russia and he wants the EU to help pay for it by way of inflation via the printing press i.e. further destroying the middle classes.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/nov/20/wake-up-europe/?insrc=hpss

Europeans:

Are you ready to confront Russia in the name of Soros' billions?

The man has already invested quite a bit in shady NGOs like Open Society and the man was knee-deep in the theft and plundering of Russia during the 1990s by way of Renaissance Capital and other financial outfits.

How soon before Soros teams up with Khodorkovsky and his "Open Russia" NGO? Khodorkovsky wants to get back what he rightfully stole so that he can placate former business partners like Dick Cheney.

nobledonkey -> Alderbaran, 24 October 2014 9:05pm

Nobody wants war with Russia and to suggest that Khodorkovsky is driven by a desire to placate Cheney seems ludicrous.

The point I was illustrating is that Soros wants the EU to become more confrontational with Russia, at the expense of its own security and economic well-being, the latter of which would actually help his own financial interests.

The second point is that Khodorkovsky and Cheney were business partners in the past and that much of the opposition to Putin by men such as Khodorkovsky, Berezovsky, Kasparov, and Zakayev is closely linked not only to financial players like Soros but to the neo-conservatives as well; whose media figures have been the most hawkish re: Russia and not just since Ukraine blew up (again).

Yucos was comprehensively stolen from him under the direction of perhaps Russia's second most influential man - Sechen. This was at a time when Putin wanted to prevent Khordorkovsky moving into politics and Igor Sechen had an eye on the potential spoils of Yucos. Khordorkovsky has expressed a desire to see Russia become a successful democracy.

That's why I said that "Khodorkovsky wants back what he stole in the first place".

The idea that he wants Russia to be a successful democracy is laughable, especially in light of his treatment of employees during his heyday, in particular when he had police beat striking workers.

All these figures: American neo-conservatives, western finance, and Russian 'opposition' are bound in their desire to re-open Russia like the Yeltsin days so that it be plundered once again, for varying reasons ranging from personal power to the extension of American hegemonic ambitions.

jamesoverseas , 24 October 2014 7:56pm
You missed this nugget that explains his world view

The world works like this: the more loyalty you have to the single centre of power in the world, the more legitimate your govt is

. To be fair has has a point. Syrian government not legitimate but Bahrain and Saudi governments are...can anyone explain the difference to me? (other than the syrian regime is more secular and protective towards minorities than the other two)
SEARAY , 24 October 2014 7:57pm

Putin might be right. Things were not so bad in Ukraine until EU was reportedly "fucked" by Victoria Nuland.

Beckow, 24 October 2014 8:01pm
What would Ukraine be like today without US-EU support for the violent revolution/coup in February in Kiev?

- There would be by now a normal presidential election with a new government (Ukraine for all its faults had a democracy and Yanukovitch and before him pro-Western Yushenko were elected)
- There would be no war in the Russian-speaking east and south
- Crimea would be safely in Ukraine
- Gas imports and trade with Russia would go on as before accounting for 30% of Ukraine's trade

Instead, Ukraine has a "revolutionary" government with all kinds of street radicals and pro-Western oligarchs running around saying some of the more stupid things in recent memory (US is going to give Marshall Plan, EU is going to open its borders to Ukrainian migrants, Russia has used nuclear missiles in Ukraine, etc...

The economy is dropping almost 10% a year with the worst still coming. There are 3,000 dead and the blood-thirsty rhetoric is still escalating.

Yes, this is a result of US meddling and support for the Maidan street protests. This is a result of 5 billion dollars spent by US on "NGO's" in Kiev. This is a result of Nuland's cookies.

Seems to me that it is self-evident that US has supported Ukraine's revolution. It is also self-evident that it has been a failure and Ukraine will suffer for a very long time. But since Putin said it, I am sure many will scream and shout and demonize instead of rational thinking. Quite a spectacle we see among Western intellectuals.... Were you always like this? Or is it something about Russia that drives you incoherent with rage?

JCBKing -> Beckow , 24 October 2014 8:07pm
The Ukrainians would also have 15 billion extra. It is not as if the deal with Russia would have left some of the idiots in Ukraine without any further scope for leverage between the EU and Russia.

I'm not sure if the EU will open up it's doors or conjure up some scheme that makes it more possible for a higher number of Ukrainians to at least be able to work in Poland, the supposedly "prosperous" Baltic states or Hungary.

Beckow -> JCBKing , 24 October 2014 8:20pm

EU is not exactly suffering from labor shortages today. So more Ukrainian workers, in Poland or anywhere, would just lead to even worse labor market for everybody. Actually, Russia is suffering from labor shortage, there are 3 million Ukrainians working there already.

In any negotiation one loses power and leverage by emotionally preferring one side. Ukraine has lost any leverage over EU by so visibly "loving EU", or US (who get anything they want anyway), or Russia by showing undisguised hatred - when Ukrainian leaders make Russo-phobic speeches (Yatsenyuk) and then remain as Ukrainian leaders, well that reflects on all Ukrainians.

So today, Ukraine has no room to negotiate anything. They are left with pleading for mercy and charity. That has never led to anything good.

Alderbaran -> Beckow, 24 October 2014 8:20pm
The attempted takeover of eastern Ukraine has been way more violent and damaging than any of the protests in Kiev and I don't see how you can contest that.

Ukraine is a corrupt state but to imagine that this corruption would have gone away naturally following another election is naive. Generally I ignore posts that mention Nuland, Nazis and $5 billion but I feel compelled to disagree with you.

Months ago, many were comparing Putin's moves in Ukraine to a chess game being played masterfully. Now, many of the same voices are saying that Russia had no influence in Ukraine and that any problems there are the fault of the US.

The chess game analogy might be quite apt - Putin appears to see conflict as adversarial rather than a drive to find equilibrium and compromise. The drive to capture Crimea might have also been made in order to divert attention away from problems in Russia itself and I'm worried that he might become ever more paranoid as Russia's economy slips and that speeches such as this one might become a little more common.

creel , 24 October 2014 8:03pm
Putin makes a general observation that is well grounded. Over the past two decades, yes. In his ex Soviet backyard. Yet if one thinks back further the US has often acted thus - through her proxy allies such as Turkey, Israel; through a host of coup-empowered autocrats the likes of Iraq's Saddam Hussein and Chile's Pinochet and through support for failed insurrection in Cuba, Nicaragua and indeed, after a long period of misrule, in Iran.

Why do we so easily overlook Turkey's incursion into Cyprus and her continued support for militarized ethnic enclaves ..but pillory Russia for her support for similar dissident pro-Russian populations in Ukraine? Particularly when in Russia's case, there are sound strategic reasons for her apprehension about the way a potentially hostile linked-with-Nato military alliance has openly seized opportunity to place forces ever-closer to her heartland.

Umut Gezer , 24 October 2014 8:03pm

I still believe Russia should have invaded Ukraine after Yanukovich who was elected by the popular vote was ousted by a western backed coup. Perhaps this was what the Nato planned so Russia would be sucked into a war, but it did not work. their plans all have been dumped into the bin.

also, on the point of Putin ignoring one British paper's question; the British media has been lying for a year on the Ukraine issue. It has been publishing bias news and has been a dark page in journalism.

katafonia , 24 October 2014 8:07pm
as Orwell said "In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
the Russian Hercules made a great speech!
shakur_420 , 24 October 2014 8:12pm
Anyone familiar with the context and history of NATO expansion, and the facts surrounding the US-sponsored coup in Ukraine, knows full well that the Russians have shown tremendous restraint. It has been the US who has been aggressive (along with their pathetic allies, like my country) in Ukraine, as they have been on the global stage for more than half a century.

The Guardian's dismissal of the facts, and their downplaying of US government behaviour is nothing new.

SHappens , 24 October 2014 8:15pm
Putin once again delivered an outstanding speech. He speaks the truth, in a straightforward manner, there is no malice nor hate. Just a fair understanding of the present situation and a clear view on Russia's future aspirations. Putin loves his country and his people rewards him a hundredfold.

There is a lot of food for thoughts in his speech.

We have entered a period of differing interpretations and deliberate silences in world politics. International law has been forced to retreat over and over by the onslaught of legal nihilism. Objectivity and justice have been sacrificed on the altar of political expediency. Arbitrary interpretations and biased assessments have replaced legal norms. At the same time, total control of the global mass media has made it possible when desired to portray white as black and black as white.

JCBKing , 24 October 2014 8:19pm
Caught some of it. Brilliant stuff from a highly intelligent and decent man.

It is incredible though some of the dumb questions these morons in the US and UK press ask. Not all of them but many..it defies logic. One overemotional American woman asked a stupid series of questions of pointless rhetoric that leave no scope for decent answers. The Financial Times man even worse ( a misleading question with the answer obvious) with imbecilic rudeness and fake posturing over the "accuracy" of one his reporters latest propaganda pieces .Completely out of place to mention in a meeting like this with a head of state.

I also would have liked some question from any nationality on why the US,Russia and Ukraine are all involved in obfuscation of the MH17 crash. One would assume that all 3 parties know exactly what happened from where and when and it would have been good for the President to be cornered on this,even though a direct answer would have been unlikely to have been given...everything else though was answered as usual with a great degree of detail that shames the empty headed, 15 minutes at best, nonsense from the likes of Obama and Cameron.

zelazny , 24 October 2014 8:20pm
Putin stands head and shoulders above the various western leaders, from the Pillsbury Doughboy Cameron to the "constitutional scholar" Obama.

Only the blind and the stupid don't understand that the US staged a neo-Nazi coup in Ukraine. The neo-Nazis then went on a campaign of slaughtering civilians, even burning them alive. The people in the eastern Ukraine said no to this psychopathy, and they in essence have won. The Kiev government trembles because it knows now that neither Nato nor the USA would come to their aid should Russia really attack them.

And a not so subtle threat underlies Putin's speech, because he basically has said Russia has had enough with US criminality. I think this foreshadows the eventually break from the petro-dollar by the BRICs, protected by Russia nuclear arms.

The federal reserve has to print out money by the untold billions in order to keep the US economy from another crash. Behind the facade of the increases in stock prices hides a cowering economy ready to crash at any unexpected event.

lubostron, 24 October 2014 8:28pm

...And he's bloody right!

It's beyond tragi-comic belief the amount of psychophantic scaremongering, lies, half-truths and propaganda America, Britain and others use to demonise Russia.

Luckily, there seems to be a huge disconnect between what is told/reported by governments and official (corporate) media and what many, many people actually believe.

JJRichardson lubostron , 24 October 2014 8:30pm
And have you looked at RT? It makes Soviet propaganda look sophisticated.
Nickel07 -> JJRichardson , 24 October 2014 8:38pm
I have looked at RT and I can assure you that some of the reporting is less biased than this pamphlet we are currently commenting on.

AlekNevski, 24 October 2014 8:36pm

The Russian president "has won because we were not ready to die for Ukraine, while apparently he was," Ambassador Gerard Araud said yesterday at a Bloomberg Government breakfast in Washington.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-10-22/-poker-player-putin-bluffed-and-won-french-envoy-says.html

Donetsk is 300 miles from Volgograd (Stalingrad) where 1 million (1 million?) German soldiers died in the legendary battle. Nearly 2 million Russian died too.
And these stupid bureaucrats are surprised that the Russians are willing to fight for... their land?

This level of incompetence is hard to bear. Moronic, completely and utterly moronic.

olddocrob, 24 October 2014 8:41pm

Was once told that the purpose of education was to equip one with a 100% efficient bullshit detector. There are a lot of sad, trusting folk on the site tonight; one would think uncle Jo, Adolph and their like had never trod the earth. How can anyone take seriously a man who parades half naked in front of his people looking like some extra from a homoerotic sword and saddles bash? I 'll take Putin seriously when he stops banging up journos and the singers of mildly ironic songs. Until then he's damaged goods.

donald7063 , 24 October 2014 8:47pm
Is Russia a colony of the US?

This is the opening paragraph of the National Liberation Movement of Russia's manifesto which is for the removal of unfriendly domination by the US of its economic, governmental and constitutional arrangements. For the complete manifesto go to:

www.geopolitica.ru

The National Liberation Movement in Russia has only one goal that unites everyone regardless of their political views: the restoration of the sovereignty of the country and liberation from its occupiers. The inhabitants of Russia must break free from their chains of slavery and become free citizens in a free (non-occupied) country.

To achieve these goals, the government should become ours, i.e. we must completely change the nature of the state, including through amending the Constitution. Society is a broader concept, and in fact, it should feel necessary to partake in this goal because the national liberation struggle is a struggle of the society for the restoration of sovereign control over Russia, including control over state institutions. Today, the state in Russia, as in any colony, works for the occupier under the rules established by it, placing it under the rulers' direct control. This provision is captured in the existing Constitution. Every day the main task of those millions of officials who go to work is to improve living standards and the solve the problems of the American and European peoples. That is their main function today. At the level of daily activity, it is hard to recognize this without desire and sufficient time for the conceptualisation of our historical facts and the current state of affairs in the country as a whole.

Justavoice01 , 24 October 2014 9:04pm

Since WWII, America has had plenty of wars, Committed plenty of war crimes, destabilized plenty of countries all over the world, not all for good, but for self-interest. Yet If Putin says this, it is labelled as propaganda, But it is true. America causes trouble everywhere it goes, if they don't get their way, the so called "west" defends any old stupidity they come out with. Creating chaos then try to manage it, but time and time again, it is botched up. Always defended by "compliant allies" who follows America with their follies all over the world. America has an army that don't win wars, it has too much money that is back by, god only knows, it's governance is irrational and dysfunctional, a country who votes in the dumbest individuals into positions of power and then try to dictate. I have said this plenty of time on these pages, Why do we follow them!......If the answer is WWII, the USSR won the European theatre practically by themselves.

Justthefactsman , 24 October 2014 9:06pm
I listened and watched on RT.

"When the British reporter asked about Russian troops operating in the Ukraine, Putin did reply according to the English translation to which I was listening. he even admitted that Russian troops were used to prevent Ukranian troops from leaving there base.

Maybe Shaun Walker should have gone to Sochi, or perhaps have watched RT.
As to describe Putin as railing against the U.S.A I wonder if Shaun actually knows the definition of railing ?

This whole piece is just another stick to beat the bear with.

I am not fan of Putin but then I am no fan of Obama, but can Shaun really tell us where Putin Lied about the historical past and what the recent history has been about the Ukraine?

I think Shaun should read "A Peoples Tragedy" by Orlando Fuges

johhnybgood , 24 October 2014 9:08pm
As Sergei Lavrov said to the US "we are sorry our country is so close to your bases". Lavrov's recent UN speech is a masterclass in diplomatic rhetoric. He is a million miles ahead of any US spokesperson - they are all incapable of any sort of sensible dialogue. Is anyone now listening to the constant Russophobia from the MSM.? Look what is actually happening on the ground, not what the press is reporting. It is clear that Russia has been a model of self restraint in the face of many provocations. The West has only succeeded in driving Russia closer to China.
RememberGiap , 24 October 2014 9:10pm
And Putin is right . Putin's Russia does not send drones to kill on other continents . Putin's Russian did not cause chaos in Libya , Iraq and Afghanistan . Putin's Russia did not spend billions of dollars creating fundamentalist Islamic movements on the Pakistani / Afghan border in the 1980's . Putin's Russia did not invite and fund Arab Jihadists to wage war as proxies of Russia as did the USA , a price we all suffering now . Russia does not supply arms to Israel to bomb Palestinians . Russia does not give Israel its ' veto ' on the UN Security Council to give it immunity from International law . Russia does not station its military bases throughout the world . As for US activities in toppling Governments , destabilizing countries and covert operations in Southern and Central America I'd still be typing this post tomorrow without even then revealing the tip of the iceberg !!

The USA , lovely people unfortunately living in a global Rogue State .

seamuspadraig , 24 October 2014 9:12pm
Uncle Scam is in deep doggie-do now. Russia and China aren't just some little third-world countries that Washington can wipe its ass on then throw away. Oh no... Uncle Scam is after big game now! These two animals can defend themselves. And this time, they're on the same team.

I'm waiting to see what happens in Syria.

Corrections , 24 October 2014 9:13pm
Partial English transcript:
http://eng.kremlin.ru/transcripts/23137

The rest of the transcript will no doubt appear over the next several hours. I suppose it's better than waiting until the whole thing is translated before posting anything.

EugeneGur , 24 October 2014 9:33pm
Putin said nothing in this speech that wasn't patently obvious. There is really nothing that could reasonably be denied because most statements were pure statement of facts. He just said all this very bluntly. He started his speech by saying that he was going to speak him mind, otherwise he sees no reason to speak at all.

I am old enough to remember as in early 1990s the American press cried every day all the time "We won! We won! We are the sole remaining superpower!" I thought: Aren't we supposed to be all friends now? As it became clear very soon, no, we weren't. We were expected to be servants to "indispensable" American people destined to rule the Universe. I can't speak for the rest of the Universe, but that role somehow doesn't appeal to me.

The exceptionalism of the United States, the way they implement their leadership, is it really a benefit? And their worldwide intervention brings peace and stability, progress and peak of democracy? Maybe we should relax and enjoy this splendour? No!"

This is a mistranslation. Puting didn't say anything about splendor. He did say "relax and enjoy" but he was referring to the saying" What should you do when you are being raped? Relax and try to enjoy". A somewhat different meaning, isn't it?

The Guardian

The Guardian

vgnych, 01 October 2014 9:37pm

This obsession of the West with Putin has nothing to do with wishing to improve democracy in Russia as they claim.

It has to do though with Russian oil and other resources be available "free for all" once again just like it was back in the 1990s. Putin is the one who curbed the problem and he is the one who still does not let the West to loot Russia.

That is why there is such a conflict. That is all.

Putin motives are clear, It is the motives of the politicians from the West that require investigation.

LeDingue -> vgnych, 01 October 2014 11:10pm

I agree.

And Russia's support for Iran, a big problem for the US-Saudi alliance.
And Russia dealing with china for gas with a ruble-yuan contract.

All of the anti-Putin media drive focusses on the Big Baddy, the "black-hat", press restrictions or state control, political influence exerted in business and on the judiciary (both the US and UK have plenty of this).

But how would things be if Putin were "ousted"?

Might not cooperation and interaction be better for a country with just 14 years of improvements since the Yetsin kleptocracy, rather than provocations and subversion on their border leaving the "bleeding ulcer" in Ukraine?

Swedinburgh -> Canadianidol, 01 October 2014 10:09pm

You preferred it when a drunkard was theoretically in charge of the world's 2nd biggest nuclear arsenal, which was scattered across several central Asian gangster enclaves?

Beckow -> Canadianidol, 01 October 2014 10:23pm

He has a 80% approval rate. Russia's living standards tripled in 12 years under Putin (think about that in the stagnating West).

You seem to be safely stuck in Western media invented reality warp, the propaganda is working on you quite well....

Aethelfrith Can_Kuzu, 02 October 2014 9:12am

"Of course there is a free press and opposition politicians get equal access and are not harassed in any way......"

Equal access as long as you have multi million dollar backers who give money in return for favours, shall we say.

Is this the same free press that adverts are used to portray certain sentiments or destroy political careers ? Or the same free press that the Leveson inquiry revealed to be so poisonous and corrupt while politicians paid homage to the great fat controller in return for political kindness ?

Yeh right....

Neo Liberal Democracy, the more equal the richer you are eh

Beckow Can_Kuzu, 02 October 2014 6:06pm

"The only improvements in the economy have come from the oil and gas sector. Take that away and the economy has actually shrunk."

That is - with all due respect - absolute nonsense. The economy has more than doubled even after you subtract oil and gas. I agree that a lot of it is driven by oil and gas money, but that is the same in all resource economies (Canada, Australia, Norway...). Consumer sector, real estate, retail and agro-business have all more than doubled in 10 years.

"days of easy oil are now over" - really? how do you know? are you shorting oil? well, you might lose some serious cash. Resources and energy will remain extremely important globally - that is just the world we live in. More people, more consumption, scramble for resources. Russia sits on a lot of them.

RedPeony Canadianidol , 02 October 2014 8:43pm
Maybe he should learn politics from Mr Harper:
"Harper to world: We are angry, and we have adjectives" - http://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/we-are-angry-and-we-have-adjectives/.
I highly suggest you read it. It's very entertaining.
Mr. Harper, what a screwed up person.

jgbg Can_Kuzu, 02 October 2014 9:22pm

The only improvements in the economy have come from the oil and gas sector

Cleaning up the banking system and closing down corrupt banks run by various oligarchs has helped a lot. Ordinary people can have savings again, without the fear that some oligarch will steal all their money and run off to western Europe.

Cleaning up corruption in the regional governments has meant that money from central government, earmarked for things like schools, hospitals or transport subsidies for pensioners is not diverted into the pockets of corrupt regional administrators.

There are many changes which have improved the lives of ordinary Russians and the economy as a whole.

m Pa nativeenglishwriter , 02 October 2014 6:47am

Putin's view of power was formed watching East Germany collapse
25 years ago Russia's president was a KGB officer in the chaos of Dresden. This explains the hardliner he is today
...
The conflict in Ukraine, and the resulting wounds to relations between the west and Moscow, will fester as long as Putin remains in power, for operational codes rarely change once set.

This article was written by State Department of USA. Perfect logic + excellent culmination!!! :-D)))))))))

PSAKI (February 6, 2014) about "f..k EU" by Nuland: No, I was suggesting that she learned Russian curse words and curse words on the fishing boat.

littlebigcoala , 01 October 2014 9:48pm
article : "This event was a catastrophe from the point of view of Soviet loyalists, and few were more loyal than Putin. He would later call the collapse of the Soviet Union and its authority in eastern Europe the greatest tragedy of the 20th century.

==============

lies...Putin never refered to the end of Soviet authority in Eastern Europe as about the greatest tragedy ...

Here is that his speach:

"I will recall once more Russia's most recent history.

Above all, we should acknowledge that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a major geopolitical disaster of the century. As for the Russian nation, it became a genuine drama. Tens of millions of our co-citizens and compatriots found themselves outside Russian territory. Moreover, the epidemic of disintegration infected Russia itself.

Individual savings were depreciated, and old ideals destroyed. Many institutions were disbanded or reformed carelessly. Terrorist intervention and the Khasavyurt capitulation that followed damaged the country's integrity. Oligarchic groups - possessing absolute control over information channels - served exclusively their own corporate interests. Mass poverty began to be seen as the norm. And all this was happening against the backdrop of a dramatic economic downturn, unstable finances, and the paralysis of the social sphere.

Many thought or seemed to think at the time that our young democracy was not a continuation of Russian statehood, but its ultimate collapse, the prolonged agony of the Soviet system.

But they were mistaken.

That was precisely the period when the significant developments took place in Russia. Our society was generating not only the energy of self-preservation, but also the will for a new and free life. "

Bythemilkwood HendersonField, 01 October 2014 10:21pm

What a narrow view you take- look to the US plus it's EU servants who started all this trouble in the first place.

zhadnyvolk HendersonField, 01 October 2014 10:34pm

Leaving Putin and the Russians to one side - could you offer some kind of "understanding" of the way Blair, Bush, Obama, Cameron have behaved over the last decade or so?

It's easy enough to look at Ukraine and decide that Putin is the new Hitler, but this was a situation that just did not need to happen. The US and the EU completely overstretched themselves - they're not going to make good on any of the promises they've made to the Ukrainians (ask the Greeks, Spaniards, Portuguese etc.) and they're certainly not going to get involved in a war with Russia.

The Finns and Swedes seem to manage their border issues with Russia. It's fairly obvious that a cooperative approach to Russia, since 1990, and particularly in the Ukraine situation, would have paid bid dividends and consolidated peace and good relations rather than this mutual suspicion and aggro.

LeDingue HendersonField, 01 October 2014 11:21pm

What matters now is to oppose him...

With what objective? With whose interests in mind? What is he preventing the West (the US) from achieving?

Are you seriously suggesting that the Western crusade against Putin has the well-being of Russian citizens in mind? Like in Iraq or Libya perhaps...?

Sarah7591Wilson -> HendersonField, 02 October 2014 12:01am

The point is that he does behave this way - i.e. as an imperialist, supremacist, authoritarian thug.

I've no idea where you're from, but you've just described the president of the United States of America.

Say what you like about Putin, but neither he nor his fellow Russians go around claiming they're the "exceptional" humans appointed by God to lead the world. Supremacism hails from our part of the world.

[Oct 19, 2014] The state wants to spy on us – but is it up to the job? by John Naughton

The key issue here is "Who is serving whom ?". Are intelligence agencies a tool of oligarchy or not. And you probably already know the answer.
Oct 18, 2014 | theguardian.com

First, what could we do to curb comprehensive surveillance of the net? The internet engineering community seems determined to do something about it. In its current form, the network is wide open to snooping, because most of its operations are not encrypted. At the Vancouver 2013 meeting of the Internet Engineering Task Force there were discussions about ways of inserting so much cryptographic treacle into the network's operations that the NSA would have to work much harder to surveil it, thereby forcing snoopers to adopt more targeted approaches that would be amenable to credible legal oversight. This won't be easy to do, but there's enough technical ingenuity in the community to pull it off.

Even if they did, however, that wouldn't be the end of the matter, because lots of unsavoury things go on in cyberspace, and it would be unthinkable not to allow access to communications for law enforcement and national security purposes. Which means that democracies need oversight regimes that are effective, technically competent and enjoy public trust. The fallout from Snowden suggests that the oversight regimes in most democracies currently lack some or all of these properties. Fixing that requires political action, and therein lies our biggest problem.

The most depressing thing about the political response to the revelations is how crass and simplistic they have been. First we had the yah-boo phase: Snowden was a traitor; the revelations dramatically undermined "national security"; anyone who applauds what he did is a naive idiot; if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear, etc. These are the philosophical equivalent of the debates that go on in bars after Premier League matches.

The good news is that we have moved on a bit from such inanities. The political debate is now framed in terms of a "balance" to be struck between security and privacy, as if it were a matter of piling fruit on both sides of weighing scales and seeing which way the needle points. But security and privacy are very different concepts. Security is a function of two things: the scale of a possible harm and the probability that it will happen. Some possible dangers are so great that even if their probability is low then extreme measures are justified. Other potential harms are smaller but more probable. In thinking about surveillance and counter-terrorism we need some way of reaching collectively agreed judgments about how the "balance" should be struck.

Likewise privacy has a value for both individuals and for society as a whole; it is also culturally and domain-dependent (we have different expectations of privacy in different locations). And the standard official line on privacy at the moment – that "people obviously don't care much about it, otherwise they wouldn't be on Facebook" – won't wash, because people give their consent to Facebook, whereas none of us clicked "agree" to the hoovering up of our communications data.

Finally, there's the question that is never discussed. Is this bulk surveillance actually effective? Is there credible evidence – as distinct from bland assurances by officials – that it actually works? Why, despite all the snooping, for example, did our intelligence services not pick up the Islamic State threat? And how cost-effective is it? The US currently spends over $100bn a year on counter-terrorism. God alone knows how much the UK spends. Are we getting real value for all this taxpayers' money? I'd like to know. Wouldn't you?

AmyInNH , 19 October 2014 1:42am

ps - Hayden has finally calmed down and acknowledged, mass surveillance and privacy rights are at direct odds with each other.

Warrants for probable cause was the balance.

imipak , 19 October 2014 2:52am
If the good guys (whoever they may be, I'm unsure at the moment I know of any) can break in, then so can the bad guys. That's simply a fact of life. For every theft prevented, a theft or ten may take place for precisely the same reason. For every time a cop rescues a kidnap victim by intercepting communications, a predator will locate a victim to kidnap by precisely the same strategy.

This is no different from the argument over guns. They have to be put beyond the reach of everyone, America is what happens when you don't.

Some might argue that the police need these tools. No they don't. The French lacked any form of encryption or privacy for individuals for a long time. Can you show me the case files where this mattered? Can you point to crime statistics where the lack of person-to-person security in France demonstrably resulted in lower crime rates or greater clean-up rates than achieved in nations where PGP (PGPi in Europe, for patent reasons) was available for download?

Rather, consider this. Each and every major miscarriage of justice - in the US, UK, France, or anywhere else - can be linked directly to an urge to close a case quickly rather than correctly. Every single time the police take short-cuts, it ends in tragedy for those wrongly accused. You don't want to give the police even more short-cuts, you want to force them to carry out greater diligence, more thorough scrutiny, more substantial policing. In other words, you want evidence. Hard evidence.

No. Giving police or anyone else back-doors into the Internet is a recipe for disaster. Those back-doors will find their way to cybercriminals and foreign cyberwarfare units -- the guys you really do NOT want being able to manipulate the computers at a major national bank or an Internet-connected nuclear power plant. If the police can intercept, then criminals can inject. Too bad if you don't like it, if you enter that kind of an arms race, you WILL lose. Even if you win, you will still lose.

Police should be better-funded, better-staffed and better-equipt.

None of this 12-marker DNA carp by some back-alley sequencing vendor, each regional police force should have their own microarray sequencer and supporting hardware, with their own on-staff expert and on-staff assistants.

None of this external forensics nonsense, they should have their own chemistry lab, their own ballistics lab -- whatever they need, they should have it. Right there, right then, with the experts required on-hand. No delays, no G4S mishaps, no risks of miscommunication, no doing things on the cheap.

If you're going to do it, do it right.

No police force should ever be "stretched". No volunteers should ever be needed. Give each police force the money and power to do the job needed, with quality.

Those, ultimately, are your choices for law enforcement. A cheap, penny-pinching service that likes hacking Internet traffic and doesn't give a damn about wrongful arrests, OR an expensive, elite service that likes being damn-near perfect on damn-near everything and removes actual bad guys from the streets.

If you choose the latter, then the Internet Problem is simple. Everything should be bullet-proof. From home users to Home Office users, nobody breaks in. No way, no how.

Can it be done? It's not easy. Only One Time Pads are provably unbreakable, but they're also provably worthless. You can, however, get as close as you like. And, with modern understanding of writing secure software, that's very close indeed. It won't be bomb-proof, but it will be bullet-proof. And that's good enough. Even for those nuclear power stations stupid enough to go on the Internet.

Jacobsadder , 19 October 2014 3:01am

"Mercifully, we have moved on a bit since then. The important thing now, it seems to me, is to consider a new question: given what we now know, what should we do about it? What could we realistically do? Will we, in fact, do anything? And if the latter, where are we heading as democracies?"

Do we need to do anything about it? The ability to spy on individual personal information is one thing but what they do with the information gleaned is entirely another. Just a hypothetical example, if I sent an email to a friend telling him/her that I have some dodgy 'whiskey galore' type beverage for sale cheap and the next day the police swooped down on me and tried arrested me for said offense, then I'd know the authorities obtained that information by invading my privacy. If that became a common phenomenon then I'd suggest that a disgruntled public just might start to mount a mass misinformation email, text, social media campaign just to piss them off. Can you imagine all those millions of misleading messages being swept up by the authorities and the time it'd take for them to sift through looking for something meaningful? I should imagine they have enough difficulty now, so prolifigate are messages sent thus far, which is precisely why they failed to recognise the ISIS threat.

From a personal perspective I don't mind them learning what colour socks I wear from my emails - obviously I'd prefer them not to snoop, but if they must then I'd be more worried about how they attempted to use that information against me.

From the perspective of identifying threats to national or global security, then the same pretty much applies. The word 'bananas' may become code for AK47's for all I know, for one day at least. That's the problem with surveillance, counter surveillance, and counter counter surveillance, each method used in terms of investigation will inevitably be countered by other methods in terms of perpetration.

In the final analysis, all will have to depend on good ol' fashioned police work using a multitude of methods to detect and usurp the eternal Lex Luthers of this world. In the meantime, anyone wanna buy some cheap Glenmorangie? We'll drink a toast to the memory of Alan Turing who'll no doubt be up above pissing his sides at the lunacy of it all.

IGiveTheWatchToYou , 19 October 2014 3:09am
If we do the sensible thing and encrypt the web we should at least make sure that the NSA & GCHQ don't still have access to the development of algorithms. It wasn't till May this year that Congress supposedly blocked the NSA from meddling with encryption standards. I was almost optimistic till I read this -

"Having lost a public battle in the 1990s to insert its own "back door" in all encryption, it set out to accomplish the same goal by stealth. The agency, according to the documents and interviews with industry officials, deployed custom-built, superfast computers to break codes, and began collaborating with technology companies in the United States and abroad to build entry points into their products. The documents do not identify which companies have participated."

They've been subverting encryption practice since the 90s "covertly introducing weaknesses." They're way ahead of the rest of us in cracking encryption when we use it. And they''re still threatening and bribing foreign companies to put in backdoors. It's gone way beyond reasonable. What use is private data if some stranger has a copy of it? Especially if the stranger is an inherently hostile and unaccountable government agency.

Even if we do encrypt something - "The N.S.A. hacked into target computers to snare messages before they were encrypted."

All our base are belong to them.

If we want reliable encryption clearly we have to cripple the NSA and GCHQ first. Sack 90% of them and cut their budget by the same, raid their data centres and erase intel gathered on every citizen who's not under investigation or charge, find out what they've backdoored under court warrants, amnesty & meaningful jailtime, and impeach the FVEY ringleaders and waterbucket challenge some confessions out of them. It's either that or mission creep into a pretty obvious totalitarian future.

Albs , 19 October 2014 3:20am

"if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear" [or other shite along the same lines]

Strange how times have changed and things have turned around. I never recall western governments in the 80s having expressed the same opinion when the Stasi had their extensive and subversive surveillance system on the go.

'Kin hypocrites.

SteB1 , 19 October 2014 4:23am
What excellent analysis from John Naughton. It's a breath of fresh air in all the cloying nonsense about this matter.

Finally, there's the question that is never discussed. Is this bulk surveillance actually effective? Is there credible evidence – as distinct from bland assurances by officials – that it actually works? Why, despite all the snooping, for example, did our intelligence services not pick up the Islamic State threat? And how cost-effective is it? The US currently spends over $100bn a year on counter-terrorism. God alone knows how much the UK spends. Are we getting real value for all this taxpayers' money? I'd like to know. Wouldn't you?

Yes, this is my concern, and what I'd like to know. However my very strong impression is that mass intelligence gathering might actually be counter-productive, and less effective than old fashioned targeted intelligence. This is where I believe the circumstantial evidence points to.

It defies common sense that the authorities already overlook so many leads, because they can't follow up everything, yet they also bizarrely claim that if they collect far more irrelevant data, that somehow the relevant date will become more apparent. It's clear the authorities have to prioritize what intelligence is followed up, and naturally many mistakes are made. The more data you have, the more mistakes you will make. Straight forward probability tells you that.

cpdukes SteB1 , 19 October 2014 3:00pm
You give credit where none is due. Are these governments and agencies actually pursuing intelligence for the purposes they state? Where is the concrete evidence? Are money, power and control more likely their motivations?

edgeofdrabness SteB1 , 19 October 2014 5:41pm

there's the question that is never discussed. Is this bulk surveillance actually effective? Is there credible evidence – as distinct from bland assurances by officials – that it actually works? Why, despite all the snooping, for example, did our intelligence services not pick up the Islamic State threat?

It is a good question but it isn't "never discussed", though it's certainly not discussed enough.

The oversimplified answer is that mass surveillance (vs targeted surveillance) produces so many false positives that it is a waste of time. Source: amongst other places, BBC R4's excellent More Or Less series covered this in reasonable detail in May 2013, still available on Listen Against:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01snyk3
or if you prefer to read rather than listen, the same material ended up on the BBC News website a week or two later:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22718000

Here's a sample (and a precaution against link-rot):

Imagine that the intelligence services had unlimited resources and could monitor everyone's phone lines.

Imagine they could detect would-be terrorists within the first three words they utter on the phone with a 99% degree of accuracy.

There would just be one small problem, according to Howard Wainer, Distinguished Research Scientist at the National Board of Medical Examiners in the United States.

Suppose there are 3,000 terrorists in the United States, he says. If the software is 99% accurate, you would be able to pick up almost all of them - 99% of them. However if you were listening to everybody - all 300 million US citizens - 1% of the general population are going to be picked up by mistake.

"So mixed in with the 3,000 true terrorists that you've identified are going to be the three million completely innocent people, who are now being sent off to Guantanamo Bay," Wainer says.

That is, for every terrorist you would have 999 innocent, but very angry people.

MrLeml , 19 October 2014 5:43am

The only "National Security" there is; is maintaining and expanding a strong middle class and shared prosperity.

All this other BS is nothing more than the ruling Oligarchy giving its corrupt security forces more tools to keep those who do the actual work, under the ruling Oligarchy's boot heel.

normko MrLeml , 19 October 2014 6:17am
Thank you for cutting through the BS. This is exactly the story. The elite oligarchs are smoke screening the citizens with their money and using the goons they hire to subvert the constitution and the so-called democracy. But as long as the citizens have cheap gasoline and hamburgers with French fries they'll be happy to let the rulers continue to rape the third world and destroy the planet.
bluecamels , 19 October 2014 8:52am
'And the standard official line on privacy at the moment – that "people obviously don't care much about it, otherwise they wouldn't be on Facebook" – won't wash, because people give their consent to Facebook'

Whose official line is this?

Most people have no idea what most of the major internet players do with their data, let alone having consented to it. Someone might post a comment on Facebook, but that is some way short of the data that being collected and shared without our consent as we browse the internet. We do not consent to the vast majority of data that is collected about us, we instead agree to extremely long and deliberately complicated privacy policies.

And corporations lose far more data than Governments - they are just better at keeping quiet about it.

memeroots , 19 October 2014 8:59am
Hmm - considering the data that companies hold and the limited security around it... I'd be very supprised if the nsa didn't have free access.

They probably only ask 'broad' questions to hide the fact they already know the data specifically and simply need to get a dump that is able to be presented in a court of law.

Noleader , 19 October 2014 9:19am

it would be unthinkable not to allow access to communications for law enforcement and national security purposes.

It would be ideal to not allow them access to our communications. Police work was done long before the police had the ability to listen in on conversations. Add to that anyone with half a brain knows that if you are going to do dirt the last thing you do is talk around any technology.

To argue that the state needs access to our communications to protect us ignores that they would need to suspect a person of a crime long before they accessed those communications (get a warrant). At which point they already suspect something is up so they stand just as good a chance of under minding the criminal activity with or without access to the communications (You know placing bugs, following suspects, check banking history, etc.. after getting a court order to do so).

nearthethames , 19 October 2014 9:30am
James Comey, the new director of the FBI, argued recently that Apple and Google adding encryption and thus frustrating access by the FBI, NSA, CIA etc, was in his view like car manufacturers lock all car trunks permanently and safe makers making all safes unable to be opened, to which he added "and that will prevent law enforcement from catching the bad guys."

The big difference, James, is that law enforcement are not physically going into every trunk and every safe and every bedroom (albeit they'd no doubt like to) so if you want to have more public trust that your surveillance is measured and genuinely approved by an independent judge (and not a FISA "court" judge) then go after only the communications of those for whom your officers can assert probably cause. The world now accepts and believes, despite protestations, that mass surveillance does indeed occur, and so of course ordinary people are going to prefer technology that has encryption built in. Being caught not only carrying out mass surveillance but lying about it too initially, has only hastened the public's appetite for encryption.

johhnybgood , 19 October 2014 9:42am
There is only one reason for this total surveillance -fear. The PTB know full well what is coming because the plans have been in the pipeline for decades. It has nothing whatever to do with "keeping us safe" -it is more a case of keeping themselves safe. The transfer of wealth to the super rich elite is reaching its end; there is little left to steal. They know there will be a backlash when the crash comes, and they have put in place means to deal with the inevitable public revolt.
What they have failed to anticipate though, is the global awakening in consciousness which is occurring at a rapid rate, and which cannot be stopped.
There is an unseen battle for hearts and minds going on, and there will only be one winner. The light will prevail.
hugsandpuppies , 19 October 2014 11:10am
There is such a thing as a comepetent spy?

I'd direct you to the Adam Curtis blog where he has a fascinating history of UK espionage over the last century. You would not be surprised to discover that it involves cranks, fools and utter incompetence with pernicous side effects tom match.

Berg206 , 19 October 2014 1:01pm
My guess is that the purpose is not to survey but to frustrate. Making it clear that every computer can be hacked, that all phone calls, texts, emails and data transfers can be intercepted, and that every cell phone can be tracked, forces hardcore criminals and terrorists into working without them. They have to physically associate with each other: they can be followed, watched, bugged, tricked, turned. Isn't that how MI5 managed to get half the membership of the IRA Army Council working for them?
Guezdan , 19 October 2014 1:29pm

In my own Federal law enforcement agency, which had its origins in 1789, we are still struggling to digest the consequent jurisdictional purview overlaps created by the infamous and ironically named Patriot Act. Bottom line: as with everything else in American history, whenever a principle encounters the bottom line and profiteering, that principle is doomed. There are such big bucks to be made in selling scare tactic based "solutions", a lesson learned at Hitler's knee, that some of us have become positively addicted to the cash flow, as if it were green heroin. Why, in my very organisation, there are private attorneys who have sold their law practices and bought their way into a political plum job in exchange for the President to grandfather them in as Assistant Commissioner, this despite any significant law enforcement experience. And then these very people have had videos made by the propaganda ministry for internal and external consumption to big them up and obfuscate their employment's true attribution...

GoredToDeath , 19 October 2014 2:00pm

The state wants to spy on us – but is it up to the job?

The answer is no, it isn't... but that job will be outsourced to private agencies and None Governmental organizations.

The whole reason behind ALL PARTIES in Government, (Liberal, Labor & Greens) pushing this Orwellian agenda through, is because all parties have been mandated by lobbyists (Not the electorate, not the people, not us but 'corporation lobbyists') to prop-up and reinforce the new corporate state authority laws, as laid out by the TPP (or Trans Pacific Partnership).

The Corporations [this includes banks] rule the world now, and they do not want competition in any way shape or form, this isn't Capitalism anymore, this is Monopoly. Insider trading, insider dealing and insider knowledge of everyone and everything, nothing is to be left to chance in this New World Order.

The Spying will be privatized and all the dirty little secrets will be sold from one dealer to the next and when they have enough dirt on you, even your imprisonment will be commodified and out sourced.

Go back to sleep Australia – someone out there will be up to the job.

cpdukes , 19 October 2014 2:49pm
There is no "balance between national security and our right to privacy" issue. The US Stasi have yet to demonstrate that any of this domestic spying has in any way contributed anyone's safety, indeed, quite the opposite. Why media continue to buy into this phoney trope is beyond me.
SleepyPixie , 19 October 2014 8:02pm

I've wondered, too, what on earth they do with the mountain of information they collect; they don't seem effective at distilling any of it into anything meaningful or helpful, at least when it matters most. It's like wanting to know something specific about nudibranch DNA and reading everything about world history in the vague hope of finding something relevant.

Sofia Diaz , 20 October 2014 12:43am
Hey guys check this tutorial to record Skype Video Calls

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGUgfQYZnBY

Pravda lashes Tony Abbott as 'disturbed' over threat to shirtfront Vladimir Putin by Australian Associated Press

Those retards still think that Pravda.com is an official Russian government publication (like newspaer Pravda were in the days of the USSR). They are referring to this article Open Letter to Tony Shirt-Front Abbott - English pravda.ru

The Guardian

In an open letter, published on Pravda, the mouthpiece of the Communist regime in Soviet times, columnist Timothy Bancroft-Hinchey demanded Abbott pull his head in.

... ... ...

This article was amended on 15 October to better reflect Pravda's relationship to the Russian government

wilrj021 , 14 October 2014 9:43pm
"Like any bully there comes a day when you pick on the wrong person, get your teeth smashed in and go running home to mummy blabbering like a ninny," he wrote.

Abbott - running home to mummy like a ninny - such a blissful image in my head right now.

If Costello was still the treasurer, we'd really have a comedy show on our hands!!!!

doubleDissolution , 14 October 2014 9:43pm
This is typically of " Wing Nu's" tactics create a distracting from the real issues [ such as climate change , slow down in the world economy , the Ebola epidermic ] and let have a brawl instead ..... FUCXXXX TYPICAL of this moron

ZebraJohn doubleDissolution, 14 October 2014 11:21pm

Abbott is rapidly degenerating into village idiot status. Clearly he didn't have a clue about how the term "shirtfront" would be interpreted and is now ducking for cover. The only finely honed talent he has is the athletic ability to put his foot in his mouth.

swinte , 14 October 2014 9:44pm

I'm so embarrassed to have him as Prime Minister - oh the shame :[ but anyway my money's on Putin :]

whyohwhy123 swinte, 14 October 2014 10:35pm

also ask Australian Associated Press (the source of this article) since when Pravda (which has always been the paper of Communist Party) is a mouthpiece of Russian government where the party of power today is Putin's United Russia party?...while Communists are the most serious opposition to Putin's United Russia party...how can an opposition paper be government's mouthpiece?

ID9761679 swinte, 14 October 2014 11:34pm

Pravda described Tony as "a foul-mouthed, despicable, pith-headed and uncouth, loutish oaf". That sums him up pretty well.

kreltogs, 14 October 2014 9:46pm

What an International embarrassment. And this is the man who is the idol of the National Liberal Government

Mikes005 kreltogs, 14 October 2014 10:51pm

Yup. When I heard Pravda called Abbott 'disturbed' my first thought was, "so they've met him then?"

jclucas kreltogs, 15 October 2014 2:39am \

For Tony Abbott to continue to accuse Russia of "murder" is extremely unwise as murder implies intent and premeditation. The facts of the case do not support this and puts the PM, himself, in a very embarrassing position.

centerline , 14 October 2014 9:47pm

I guess if Australia ever wants to stand on it's own two feet in the world instead of hiding behind the US, we will need a better class of politician.

Uncommonsmarts centerline, 15 October 2014 2:07am

US is is irreversible decline and bogged down in endless lost wars and Australia is blindly following them into an abyss and Abbot is best lapdog the US can wish for as he is a moron and loud mouth who is totally oblivious to the global power shift and how vulnerable Australia is. Barking for no apparent reason only reinforces Australia's already poor image on the global stage as a mere US puppet.

LisaGuf, 14 October 2014 9:49pm
Please world Please, realise Abbott does not at all reflect the majority of Australians, please realise he is our George Bush 2.0. We are just as embarrassed as you are disgusted by him. Hockey running a close second.

YouthWasted LisaGuf , 14 October 2014 11:11pm

Agreed. He doesn't, and never has, represented my point of view.

The threat was the "most crass example of stupidity the world has seen since the USA, the UK and Australia murdered Iraqi civilians in an illegal and criminal series of war crimes".

Oh, that's gotta hurt Tones. It's too bad he didn't make the distinction that it wasn't the whole of the Australian people that made the commitment to that war, it was the Howard Government.

Jools12 LisaGuf , 15 October 2014 12:04am
Ten years ago I used to tease my American husband and all of his family about their chronically embarrassing and terminally stupid President - George W. Thanks Abbott, I am now getting back that teasing tenfold. Is it possible to eradicate this gene from politicians?
tibetancowboy, 14 October 2014 9:50pm
The smart view is that the Nazi regime installed by Obama accidently shot down the civilian aircraft while aiming for Putin's plane. This is why the critical info contained in the plane's black box is being retained here in America in secret. None of its message will ever be publicized because the evidence is there which would incriminate Obama and his Nazi allies ruling the Ukraine. I'm convinced that is why the black box has disappeared from Australian / American / U.K. press. Obama will retain the unopened black box until the discussion fades away as other War Crimes replace it.
LeagueOfNervousFish, 14 October 2014 9:53pm
Extraordinary diplomacy from Abbott.

Has it ever occurred to him to engage his brain before he opens his mouth?

Paddy_Irish_Grl LeagueOfNervousFish, 14 October 2014 9:57pm
What brain?
Edu1975, 14 October 2014 9:54pm

foul-mouthed, despicable, pith-headed and uncouth, loutish oaf

Really, it's very accurate.
Wheelspinner, 14 October 2014 9:59pm

a foul-mouthed, despicable, pith-headed and uncouth, loutish oaf

Love it. This should be on Abbott's business card.

ID1590389 , 14 October 2014 10:00pm
How typical of this boorish buffoon to make empty and idle threats. Shirt front?He would not even know what the term means.

Putin would snap this fool like a twig.Abbott will find that this is not like bullying the unemployed,the weak or women,mad Vlad would destroy him with a snarl.
This pathetic pommie embarrassment to Australia should piss off to the england he so loves and admires.He will find it somewhere in 1950 s

RoydBogan ID1590389 , 14 October 2014 10:47pm

15

You must really hate the Brits. Give 'em a break, they've got Cameron and Osborne already, they don't need Boofhead as well.
  • Revenant13 , 14 October 2014 10:02pm
    Never thought I'd see the day when I'd agree with anything published by Pravda (truth), but it has arrived and its summary of the rabid Abbott as a disturbed mind crying out for therapy will strike many of us as perceptive, accurate and telling. He's a national disgrace and increasingly an international pariah too.

    One thing it didn't mention in detail though, was just how greatly and widely Abbott and his minions are despised and distrusted in Australia. He leads a pack of ravening political wolves that are destroying not only Australia's democracy but its economic well being and that of generations to come.

    cedarvale , 14 October 2014 10:03pm

    Absolutely appalled by this poor excuse for a PM who continually uses a tragedy to score points from his bogan backers. My sympathy with all the families who lost friends and family in the plane crash.

    Reynardus . , 14 October 2014 10:04pm
    Tony Abbott is a rare idiot indeed.
    akillerkoala46 Reynardus, 14 October 2014 10:06pm
    Have you seen the rest of the cabinet?
    DIPSET, 14 October 2014 10:11pm
    Here, have some more quotes from the hilarious open letter/warning.

    As Bruce Willis quipped in Die Hard 2..."Just the fax ma'am, just the fax"

    Enjoy......lol

    Tony Abbott displays a degree of insolence, arrogance and incompetence which mirrors the intrusiveness, belligerence and chauvinism inherent in other members of the Anglo Saxon alliance in NATO. You know, that global terrorist organization whose budget is a staggering one point two trillion USD a year, each and every year.

    Yikes!

    There is more.....

    When Australia isn't busy crawling around the legs of its colonial master, England or trying to crawl up the anatomy of London's master, Washington, participating in their wars to pick up a few crumbs thrown Canberra's way, its politicians are busy kowtowing to Europe and the USA making stupid and unfounded remarks about Russia

    Then an attempt at playing nice....

    This opinion piece in no way wishes to attack the good people of Australia who do not take Mr. Abbott's side, nor that of the other members of the political class, against Russia. One only has to look at productions such as Neighbors and Australian Master Chef. In the first, a production mirroring the image Australia would like to project to the world, namely a community-based family-oriented people helping each other out. In the second, we see this is not only a figment of the imagination but reality, because the judges are nice to the contestants and teach them instead of insulting them and making them feel inadequate, like some other Master Chef programs. This opinion is backed up by interaction with my many Australian correspondents

    Before the final flourish.....

    This is the true Australia and it has nothing to do with Mr. Abbott. Or his political friends and cronies. Once again, we see a country whose political class is divorced from the collective will of its people yet we see a politician who thinks it is cool to be rude, insolent, insulting, impolite, impertinent, unpolished, gross, unpleasant and downright impudent.

    Jeez!!

    Who ever thought cookies handed out in Kiev would end up leaving crumbs like this ?

    Ha!

    ;-)

    AlwaysSimple davros49 , 15 October 2014 2:55am
    Worsening Russian economic situation? You just have to be kidding.

    For a starter, they have just discovered what could be the world's largest supply of natural gas in the Yamalo-Nenets Autonomous Okrug, In addition, along with ExxonMobil they have just completed a test drill in the Arctic which has demonstrated that they have from $7.5 to $10 Trillion worth of 'sweet, light crude' that cost Exxon $600M to drill and was, in the words of the Exxon CEO, 'the most difficult but rewarding test drill they have ever done'. Thanks to the US sanctions though, Exxon, along with their investment partner, MorganStanley, are now barred from partnering the Russians in this find so guess what? The Russians are now in talks with the Chinese to underwrite the exercise.

    Well done, USA, that is indeed a spectacular own goal and it certainly makes your claim that Russia has 'worsening economic situation'. I think you should do a little more research before displaying your ignorance.

    IanCPurdie, 14 October 2014 10:20pm
    Just loved the Guardian sub-headline:

    Russian government mouthpiece launches broadside at PM, saying he runs risk of getting his 'teeth smashed in'

    Meanwhile elsewhere, Pravda had been reporting:

    Australian government mouthpiece, News Limited launches broadside at Putin, saying he runs risk of being "shirtfronted"

    Sub-editors are indeed a very funny [not ha ha] species.

    whyohwhy123 IanCPurdie , 14 October 2014 10:45pm
    Just loved the Guardian sub-headline:

    Russian government mouthpiece launches broadside at PM, saying he runs risk of getting his 'teeth smashed in'

    ==========

    Putin's party is called United Russia Party...Pravda is a paper of Russian Communist party which is in opposition and has no power since 1991...to call it as mouthpiece of Putin's government is st.pidity...or ignorance....looks like Australia is toooooooo far away from civilised world - news about collapse of communism has not yet reached them, they still think that Pravda is government newspaper in Russia

    Reynardus . , 14 October 2014 10:21pm

    On the world stage of international diplomacy the Russians come across as cool headed, sophisticated, refined, and...well, diplomatic. The west seems to be increasingly represented by uncouth, bumbling loudmouths.

  • [Oct 12, 2014] The Why are the media playing lapdog and not watchdog – again – on war in Iraq?

    The Guardian
    Fear sells, violence sells, war sells. The mainstream press just sold another American war.

    But the mainstream US media plays the role of government lapdog more than watchdog.

    ... ... ...

    Obsessed with maintaining access to power, the mainstream media just keeps handing their megaphone to the powerful and self-interested. Rarely do we hear from people who opposed the disastrous 2003 invasion of Iraq or rightly predicted the chaos that would result from NATO intervention in Libya. The few anti-war voices who manage to slip into the dialogue are marginalized and later silenced.

    Let's face it: fear sells, violence sells, war sells. The vicious Isis beheadings, discussed ad infinitum, attracted large audiences. So did talk about exploding toothpaste. People whipped into a state of fear always want to know more.

    Sadly, the public is not getting what it deserves: a well-rounded debate about the pros and cons of military action. Why has a decade of support for the Iraqi army and years of covert CIA support for the Syrian opposition been so fruitless? How much might this intervention cost? (So far, the bill has been more than $1bn.) How will Middle East monarchies that funded extremists suddenly become exemplars of democratic values? What is the endgame in Syria? Will Bashar Assad still be in power? What are the unintended consequences of expanding American military action in the Middle East? (The Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported that the US bombings already have attracted 6,000 more recruits to Isis.) And most important of all: what are the alternatives to stop the slaughter of innocent civilians? The voices of people proposing political solutions other than slaughter are the voices the public deserves to hear.

    Wars usually start with overwhelming public approval once the White House and the national security apparatus get the media to beat the war drums. It's only after people tire of war that the media really begin to seek answers to questions that should have been asked before the bombs were launched.

    But instead, once again, the US government and the US media establishment is embracing a military policy of airstrikes to strengthen local capacity despite a regional landscape – from Yemen to Libya – littered with the wreckage of this approach. Smoldering in the detritus of war is also the fourth estate.

    GeorgeSherban, 10 October 2014 11:41am

    To some extent, you could say that the motives of the US government are altruistic. Of course there will also be strategic reasons for intervening.

    Whether it is adviseable or not is another matter.

    Chanelle47 -> GeorgeSherban, 10 October 2014 12:00pm

    Altruistic is the last thing they are. Why did the US launch an Iraq War 2.0 in the early 2000? At various points it was because Saddam cause 9/11, because of the Taliban, because of Al Qaida, because Saddam had weapons of mass destruction (tee hee). Then, a couple of years in, it wasn't any of those things. It became about "sowing the seeds of democracy" in Iraq.

    It was all bullshit. One thing you can be sure of: if a politician's lips are moving in regard to Iraq, Isis or terror then what is coming out is never the truth. Their buddies in The Press merely amplify, obfuscate and confuse as required and to order.

    JOHNNYHEMISPHERE, 10 October 2014 11:43am

    As a famous old man with a big beard once said.....

    "The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e. the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force. The class which has the means of material production at its disposal, has control at the same time over the means of mental production, so that thereby, generally speaking, the ideas of those who lack the means of mental production are subject to it.

    The ruling ideas are nothing more than the ideal expression of the dominant material relationships, the dominant material relationships grasped as ideas."

    KelvinYearwood -> JOHNNYHEMISPHERE, 10 October 2014 2:05pm

    Well put.

    The problem is that the liberal paradigm abstractly disconnects material production and intellectual production as though it is a given that the latter operates autonomously.

    Hence, you get the question, why does the business media follow money and power?

    Clearly intellectual production can act independently of the interests of material production as many independent and/or non-profit writers and organisations prove, but they do not have the means, the power, the scope and the reach to foreground these ideas in the arena of the dominant production of ideas.

    Further, to enter the arena of the production of dominant ideas one has to not only have the abilities for such, but be amenable to a process of objective filtering, a priori expectations, values, assumptions entailing personal compromises to such an extent that one is barely human if one has reached a position of authority in the structure (if one was human to start with, that is).

    UnironicBeard, 10 October 2014 11:46am

    Maybe because the media is in bed with the politicians and arms manufacturers. There's certainly been a lot of propaganda flying around, particularly as the article says regarding Khorasan.

    Still, looking at things from the other side of the fence, Isis certainly have a talent for bringing out the warmonger in virtually everybody. And if our intervention isn't very well thought through, perhaps that could be excused to a degree by the urgency of the situation

    Zakida, 10 October 2014 11:47am
    Like the US government and media, the UK government and media are all neocons now and they are bent on poisoning the rest of us with their neocon propaganda.

    http://www.voicesofliberty.com/audio/american-government-media-are-all-neocons-now/

    splodgeness , 10 October 2014 11:52am

    Fear sells, violence sells, war sells. The mainstream press just sold another American war

    Who are they selling it for?

    JOHNNYHEMISPHERE splodgeness , 10 October 2014 12:05pm

    Who are they selling it for?

    the section of the 1% known as big oil and the Military Industrial Complex.....

    In other words those who profit from the instability of the region.

    joeomahoney , 10 October 2014 12:09pm
    What short memories the Guardian has. It's embarrassing flag waving for Blair and its lack of critique in the Iraq War is still remembered by many of us with some shame.
    SeeNOevilHearNOevil , 10 October 2014 12:16pm
    You're missing the point that main stream media are not actual reporters especially in the US. They repeat government and hawkish politician talking points without any scrutiny.

    For all intend and purpose they are a propaganda machine that showly herds the far from knowledgable average american into believing anything they want.

    Even when confronted with the abuse of the government by E Snowden, they still managed to turn him into a villain and brush aside the revelations. If people act like sheep, they will be herded

    Backbutton -> SeeNOevilHearNOevil, 10 October 2014 4:06pm
    Good observation; these media are regurgitating reporters, not investigative reporters. They just package the drivel fed, not question.

    That's one reason the American people are so easy misled by government, politicians and slick businesses, and treated as imbeciles. Deserving.

    The progeny blames or thank their forefathers.

    JOHNNYHEMISPHERE -> Meltingman, 10 October 2014 1:01pm

    Back in the 1930's the left had real intellectuals who knew the only thing fascists would respond to was force.

    If you can't see the difference between Nazi Germany (a huge industrial, educated country with the ability to manufacture its own war machine) and the Jihadis in the Middle East you are the deluded one.

    Unfortunately today the left is over run with public school toffs and a pampered sheltered upbringing that makes them dangerously clueless.

    Obviously you don't realize that many left wing intellectuals who chose to fight fascism in Spain were "public school toffs" like Eric Blair.

    zelazny, 10 October 2014 2:18pm
    "Why has the media pushed the Obama administration's war frame instead of playing the role of skeptic by questioning official assertions, insisting for corroboration on "anonymous leaks" and seeking alternative points of view?"

    To a large extent because people like Medea Benjamin have turned the peace "movement" into a kabuki theater for publicity stunts, which history teaches have no effect and which the press mostly ignores.

    Benjamin comes from wealth and this seems to make it impossible to call the actions of her social equals war crimes. Instead, she does gimmicky interactions with Obama, the current leading war criminal in office.

    And we should not forget that the major writers in the major papers make good money and have stock based retirement plans, which expand with war because most of the stock portfolios have heavy investments in the military industrial complex companies, which have done extremely well over the last few weeks with replacement orders for missiles, drones, and other weaponry flooding in.

    Backbutton -> zelazny , 10 October 2014 3:51pm
    Don't spit into the soup, we all must drink. Plus we have families to support and need a job, so go with the flow.
    jdanforth -> Backbutton , 11 October 2014 12:32pm
    Excellent! You've captured the prevailing mentality of the entire mass of America's disappearing petty bourgeoisie -- professors, artists, journalists, lawyers, etc.
    robtal , 10 October 2014 2:48pm
    I don't like that we were whole scale lied to by Bush administration about Iraq. And no one who understands power every totally believes anything government mouths expel.
    The enemy was in Afghanistan only. Now we have another problem primarily of our own making . ISIS is something that would likely never have happened if we had not invaded Iraq and created a power vacuum. But the new problem is here now and now we have a real self created enemy that is so extreme they cut peoples heads off with dull knives. Our corporate press who spins news like a runaway centrifuge plays a very large role in this. Saying the above, the way out is never avoid the problem but go directly into the fire or heart of it, now we have little choice. The only good if you can call it good is a lot of the world is with us on this one. We forgot the lessons of Vietnam already and Im sure we will forget the lessons of Iraq because corporate interests are the only ones Washington forwards. But we should never never never forget we created all these messes that must be cleaned up. And for that some day we will be taken down.
    Cousin2 robtal , 10 October 2014 4:26pm
    If you support military action against groups that behead people, then you support a US invasion of Saudia Arabia, where eight people were beheaded last month for "crimes" like "sorcery," right? Or is it only Western heads being cut off you are so concerned about, or heads being cut off by people who don't sell us oil?

    The article is correct. US national security policy is more about who wins the next election rather than reasoned responses to actual threats. As long as this is so, the US will be at war somewhere, with someone.

    BrainDrain59 Cousin2 , 10 October 2014 9:52pm
    I agree with your general point, as you can see from my other posts here. But with this:

    US national security policy is more about who wins the next election

    I cannot agree. US national insecurity policy is driven by the needs of the kleptocracy that runs my f'd-up country and profits from its damned wars. Individual zillionaires may be R or D, but as a group they don't care which wins, because they own both parties.

    Latvia's ruling coalition keeps Russia-leaning party at bay in election by Shaun Walker in Riga

    From comments: "Latvia is a country of 2 million people who have economic decisions made for them by the world bank, the IMF and the EU parliament." Nationalists after coming to power treat Russians as second class citizens. thanks God they can move to Western Europe which is less xenophobic. Most professionals I used to know left the country long ago. So what they are building is Ethnographic museum with banking sector specializing in laundering Russian dirty money. We can talk about democracy in apartheid country, like Latvia, only as a joke.
    The Guardian

    The results will give Harmony 25 seats in Latvia's 100-seat parliament, six fewer than they had before the elections, when they were also the largest single party in parliament. Other parties, however, were reluctant to enter a coalition with what is seen as the "Russian party".

    ... ... ...

    A third of Latvia's population is Russian-speaking, but about 280,000 are "non-citizens" of the country, holding special passports that bar them from voting. In order to become citizens, they have to take an exam on Latvian culture and history, a process which Russian rights groups say amounts to discrimination, but Latvian authorities say is necessary given the history of Soviet occupation and forced Russification policies of the past.

    Compare Shaun Walker with post http://seva-riga.livejournal.com/260491.html

    What has happened to Saturday, October 04 elections in Latvia, except that was delivered record low voters attendance?

    The election results were predictable - most votes as usual got nationalists, artificially divided into several parties, which look like twins, all of whom has the exactly the same ideology: "the Russians are scum, and they should choke. Russia is the aggressor and we should fight it should be at war, America is our ideological gospel, the European Union is our feeding place."

    Anyway, just state and municipal officials, the number of which is rapidly approaching the number of not yet emigrated to Western Europe people of the "titular nation" was enough to achieving an electoral advantage when voting on any issues - from composition of Parliament to the approval of suicide, what exactly is the economic policy of the Latvian state.

    What was really interesting is that the other party under the name of "Consent", which is headed by the current mayor of Riga Nil Ushakov. This part previously managed to almost a third of the votes. This party this, which united all Russian people under the banner of resistance to assimilation, which for some reason is called integration, over the last 4 years has made an elegant sell-out of their own voters and now is trying to present a seductive pose in front of the Latvian nationalistic electorate.

    that include the rejection of the fight for return of of historical name of the street "Kosmonavtov", which was renamed by Russophobes into Dudayev street, and the recognition of the absurd claim that Latvia was occupied from 1940 to 1991, and the last betrayal of the electorate - declaration of Monsieur Ushakov about the illegality of the accession of Crimea to the Russian Federation.

    All this cost the party "Consent" votes. And the name itself has now become a wonderful theme for various jokes and comparisons of her with ready for everything. In reality:

    So Ushakov now needs to think something else to position "Consent" in a such way that Latvians nationalist were willing to admit her to the feeding pot, which in reality Parliament is.

    I propose a strong marketing course - all party members should go to fight Russia in Crimea in order to return it to Ukraine, i.e. to prove the talk with real deeds... Ticket to Kiev will be gladly pay by Ukrainian nationalists and then full speed to the Perekop and there unfold the fighting chain in full glory, in the reincarnation of "Drang nach Osten". You would say that this is a difficult task. But what to do? And who said it would be easy?

    Ilja NB, 05 October 2014 1:42pm

    So far the democracy in Latvia. Fanatic Latvians op purpose exclude the largest elected party. This is how extreme hate is created which eventually will reach boiling point like in the east of Ukraine.

    NSAhunter -> Ilja NB, 05 October 2014 2:05pm

    Oh please, the largest party many times are excluded if they can't gain support from other parties to form a government.

    Consider the 2010 Swedish election

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_general_election,_2010

    The Social democrats got the most seats but the second largest party ended up making government instead because they found more allies to outnumber the largest party.


    Also happened in Germany when the SPD and FDP outmaneuvered the larger CDU despite CDU having the largest share of votes because SPD and FDU combined outnumbered CDU voters.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_German_federal_election,_1976

    I doubt many baltics want "closer ties with russia" given what happened to Ukraine.

    The ukrainians sure got "closer ties" alright.

    Hermann22 -> Ilja NB, 05 October 2014 5:27pm

    The largest party had 23% of the votes. The coalition had 56%. The coalition wins by more than 2 to 1. This is democracy. Of course, this is not what Mr Putin understands as democracy but it is how things are done in the free world.

    Abdullah Ahmed Faraz, 05 October 2014 1:44pm

    Failure to give ethnic Russians a fair representation would lead to more unrest.

    Phalanxia -> Abdullah Ahmed Faraz , 05 October 2014 2:06pm
    Ethnic Russians in the Baltic states are not the monolith the Russian state want to portray them as. Some are resentful towards Baltic democracy and nostalgic for the Motherland, but others are well integrated Baltic-speakers and citizens of the Baltic democracies.
    Mittag Leffler -> Skookum1 , 05 October 2014 2:21pm
    Well, not quite true.

    Due to some strange discriminatory laws in Latvia, more than 10% of the population are banned from any voting, and something tells me they most probably would have voted for Ushakov, wouldn't they?

    On the other hand, ethnic Latvians refrain from voting for Ushakov because he is an ethnic Russian (as this very article suggests).

    In other words, discrimination in all directions.... looks like it is the way of living in Latvia, unfortunately...

    onu labu -> voltaire17, 05 October 2014 7:36pm

    out of 2 million people in Latvia, 1.5m are eligible to vote; some 520k are ethnic Russians, plus another 110k are Ukrainians and Belarusians, adding up to a total of 630k 'Russian speakers', of whom less than half - 280k - can't vote because they can't be arsed to learn the language of a country they came to live in uninvited.

    Nobul -> onu labu, 05 October 2014 7:53pm

    Were the Americans, Australians, Kiwis and Afrikaners invited into their countries and learned the native languages?

    GoodmansParadox -> Phalanxia, 05 October 2014 2:52pm

    Crimea is Russian, was Russian, and its people want to remain Russian, not be controlled by Russophobes in Kiev by a quirk of history (Khruschev's largesse would never had happened if the potential of the Ukrainian SSR breaking away from Russia had been contemplated). Why do you hate self-determination? Because the vast majority of Crimeans reject Ukraine. This was not an invasion.

    Phalanxia -> Alex Kuk, 05 October 2014 3:02pm

    They can choose whatever they like - apparently a large number of them chose Europe over Russia.

    Because the vast majority of Crimeans reject Ukraine.

    If this was so obviously true, the referendum could have been conducted within the Ukrainian Constitution rather than at the gunpoint of the Russian soldiers who Putin now admits had invaded Crimea.

    Crimea is Russian, was Russian

    It was actually originally Tatar, an indigenous people which the Russian authorities have wasted no time in repressing.

    whyohwhy123 -> Phalanxia, 05 October 2014 5:14pm

    Phalanxia said: "In other words, this is a loss for the pro-Moscow party.
    It's interesting how Harmony are pursuing the same have-cake-and-eat-it-too policy the Party of Regions and Russophiles in Ukraine pursued (

    ===========

    pro-Moscow?....so any russian party is pro-Moscow?...and of course by this token any Russian party is a BAD party in your opinion...do you know that you are a racist?

    Dimmus -> Phalanxia, 05 October 2014 7:02pm

    < the referendum could have been conducted >

    under the OSCE monitoring, but OSCE refused to monitor.

    < rather than at the gunpoint of the Russian soldiers >

    - show me any photos or videos of russian guns pointing on someone who votes.

    < It was actually originally Tatar, an indigenous people which the Russian authorities have wasted no time in repressing. >

    - The recorded history of the Crimean Peninsula begins around the 5th century BC when several Greek colonies were established along its coast (Wiki). Then it had been settled by Scythians, Tauri, Greeks, Romans, Goths, Huns, Bulgars, Kipchaks and Khazars. Then Kievan Rus' and partly by Byzantium. Then Golden Horde, Venetians and by the Genovese. Then the Crimean Khanate and the Ottoman Empire. Then the Russian Empire. Then... some time later, under Soviets the Ukraine was formed and Crimea was given to Ukraine... May be historically it belongs to Greeks, but not to Tatars or Ukraine?

    mattijoon Dimmus, 05 October 2014 11:12pm

    < It was actually originally Tatar, an indigenous people which the Russian authorities have wasted no time in repressing. > - The recorded history of the Crimean Peninsula begins around the 5th century BC when several Greek colonies were established along its coast (Wiki). Then it had been settled by Scythians, Tauri, Greeks, Romans, Goths, Huns, Bulgars, Kipchaks and Khazars. Then Kievan Rus' and partly by Byzantium. Then Golden Horde, Venetians and by the Genovese. Then the Crimean Khanate and the Ottoman Empire. Then the Russian Empire. Then... some time later, under Soviets the Ukraine was formed and Crimea was given to Ukraine... May be historically it belongs to Greeks, but not to Tatars or Ukraine?

    Well, you point it out. No piece of land "historically belongs" to anybody. Borders have been shifting, peoples have been moving, the Earth does not know any political boundaries.

    The annexation of Crimea by Russia is not legitimate. The Russians violated the papers they signed.

    SHappens, 05 October 2014 2:02pm

    Harmony favours closer ties with Moscow, while maintaining Latvia's Nato and EU membership

    The right thing to do. This is highly compatible and respectful for all. The same approach shall not be a problem elsewhere in Europe.

    stuperman -> SHappens, 05 October 2014 2:21pm

    ''Harmony favours closer ties with Moscow, while maintaining Latvia's Nato and EU membership.''

    That's its comment today. Tomorrow it can change its mind. As mayor of Riga why did Ušakovs visit senior Moscow officials three weeks ago? He said it was to discuss Russian sanctions of Latvian exports. That is not his responsibility; it the role of national government. We in Latvia are fully aware where his loyalties lay.

    starfield, 05 October 2014 2:11pm

    they have to take an exam on Latvian culture and history, a process which Russian rights groups say amounts to discrimination

    Hmm, they could always go and live in Russia then if that's the culture and history they prefer.
    It seems quite clear to me that there is a push to recreate the USSR but instead of having the other states still seen as states, Russia wants to just make them a part of Greater Russia.

    speakout99 -> starfield, 05 October 2014 3:02pm

    Nonsense. What would Russia want with a tiny, troublesome state like Latvia? In any case, it's part of the EU and NATO. You are just fantasizing.

    Bythemilkwood -> starfield, 05 October 2014 5:02pm

    Would you consent to be driven out of your home by ethnic cleansing?

    whyohwhy123 -> starfield, 05 October 2014 5:36pm

    Hmm, they could always go and live in Russia then if that's the culture and history they prefer.

    ===========

    its like in Belgium you would say for French-speaking minority - you can always go to france and leave Belgium alone...or you can say for French-speaking minority in Switzerland - go to France if you want to speak your langauge....or in Spain and Scotland you can say to locals you can...ups !!!! - no, no, no....in other words you get it - what you have just said is total nonsence (and pretty fascist one nonsence by the way).

    Gernot Kramper, 05 October 2014 2:17pm

    On the long run, Lativa must face the russian speaking minority. degrading them to ciztizen without rights is far below EU standards and makes sure, "evil" putin has a foot in the door.

    They can solve their problems now - or someone else will do in future

    Matt Long, 05 October 2014 2:26pm

    Latvia is a country of 2 million people who have economic decisions made for them by the world bank, the imf and the EU parliament.

    They cannot change taxation levels, raise pensions or set budget levels without other people's say say.

    Any country that took a bailout is in the same position. Fear of the Russians is the only way to be heard when you are a corrupt small nation.

    I feel for the people, both ethnic latvian and ethnic russian caught up in self serving political b***s**t.

    dyatel42, 05 October 2014 5:00pm

    I wonder how many people would be disenfranchised if Wales insisted that an exam in Welsh had to be passed before being allowed to vote?

    Presumably, Russian speakers in the Baltic states are permitted to pay taxes to the state even though they are unable to participate in the democratic process.

    However, it would appear that many Russian speakers who do possess a Baltic state passport simply move to the UK, judging by the number of Russian speakers my wife overhears around town.

    stuperman -> dyatel42, 05 October 2014 5:21pm

    There is a difference between an ''exam'' and a test. It is a test in Latvian similar to the one in the UK for those seeking UK citizenship..

    edwardrice -> stuperman, 05 October 2014 5:26pm

    But Latvia is a newly independent country and the people denied citizenship were born in the territory or moved and lived in the territory for many years and called it home.

    The ethnic Russians denied equal rights by the Latvian authorities didn't move to Latvia, they were already living there.

    [Oct 04, 2014] Violent clashes break out in Hong Kong after counter-protesters storm sit-in by Tania Branigan in Hong Kong and Jonathan Kaiman in Beijing

    From comments: "It will be interesting to see how this paper and the Western media in general will report on the use of violence from the pro democracy supporters in Hong Kong, because it is inevitable.
    My guess is that it will be excused and promoted as heroic."
    Oct 03, 2014 | The Guardian

    newenergyspace, 03 October 2014 12:17pm

    Send in the boys disguised as protesters, wait for violence to ensue, then claim the whole thing had descended into a riot and that the police were justified in their intervention in the interests of 'public safety'.

    MurkyFogsFutureLogs newenergyspace, 03 October 2014 2:35pm

    And whom are the original protesters? Shall we (as in the West) send in the NGO's posing as student unions to protest and undermine the regional government?

    Shall we, (as in the West) support our allies (like Saudi-Arabia and Turkey's) efforts in undermining the Syrian government, by sending in the jihadi's to kick off a civil war under the false auspices of a peaceful protest being violently cracked down upon?

    Or how about Ukrainian style? Sending in the armed neo-nazi's to fire upon police officers to garner a like for like response to augment an excuse which leads to actions that support a Western global agenda, for example, the installation of a pro-Western government.

    Come on, everyone's playing dirty, these tactics are not reserved for communist or sectarian states.

    Shinnel88 Daniel Lee, 03 October 2014 2:15pm

    I believe those kids were manipulated by their US-influenced school teachers. Very dangerous.

    They do not know what they really want and have very misled fantasies about the Western democracy which is non-existing, especially in UK and USA where we are all evilly monitored and controlled by MI5, MI6, FBI, CIA, and NSA.

    xiangbalaolao superdonyoungy, 03 October 2014 5:02pm

    Are you saying the multitude of tai tais are the Chinese secret granny squad shipped down from Shenzhen? Can you speak Cantonese? Do you know HK beyond Wanchai and Central? Anyone who has lived here long enough knows you dont mess with Mong Kok and Yau Ma Dei residents, especially the triads and old girls and boys who dont take kindly to spotty kids from HKU interfering with business.

    RenZantetsuken Jtd979, 03 October 2014 6:33pm

    I was waiting for the standard CIA comment! Ha ha

    I was waiting for the plain-clothed cops comment too, wasn't disappointed.

    Imagine, if they're both correct.

    hipstorian, 03 October 2014 12:24pm

    It's not all Beijing sending in a mob. There is a very large number of Hong Kong people who aren't involved in the protests - mostly middle aged, who see the action as damaging the intrests of the place. Despite the reporting about it being a sweeping democratic movement, it isn't. There are disperate groups with different agends which have been lumped together.

    QueenElizabeth hipstorian, 03 October 2014 1:08pm

    Yes, but 'rent-a-mob' is catchier.

    As 'CIA-organised demonstrations' is catchier in the Beijing tabloids.

    ploughmanlunch, 03 October 2014 12:27pm

    It will be interesting to see how this paper and the Western media in general will report on the use of violence from the pro democracy supporters in Hong Kong, because it is inevitable.
    My guess is that it will be excused and promoted as heroic.

    Marella, 03 October 2014 12:29pm

    Presumably the Chinese government can now claim this was a 'spontaneous' uprising of loyal citizens, and avoid international criticism.

    marky226, 03 October 2014 12:29pm

    The pro- democracy crowd is being helped significantly in funding by guess who America. The CIA involved again, now I would be support them but this.

    eveready, 03 October 2014 12:29pm

    Just as I predicted. Hongkong is a fast and furious society. Time is money. The demonstrators are depriving the businessmen in the vicinity of their livelihood. These locals have big losses staring into their faces. The Hongkong government doesn't need to lift a finger to make the demonstrators go home. What more the Communist Chinese government.

    WinstonTheChair marky226, 03 October 2014 12:48pm

    Have you got evidence for this? Sorry but links to the blogs of nutjobs don't count and neither does inferring on the basis that, "It must be, mustn't it?" – I mean real evidence that might stand rational examination.

    Krustallos WinstonTheChair, 03 October 2014 1:03pm

    Even if the CIA was involved, would that be a reason not to support the protestors? The KGB fairly seriously infiltrated the UK trade union movement but that didn't mean UK trade unions were nothing but a Kremlin plot.

    Besides, basing your political decisions on opposing whatever the US supports is likely to lead you into some very strange places. Better to analyse the issues from an independent standpoint. What's likely to benefit the working class in Hong Kong the most? Political freedom and the right to vote for whoever they choose, or a government hand picked by the dictatorship in Beijing?

    alfredwong WinstonTheChair, 03 October 2014 1:11pm

    The Chinese foreign minister Wang Yi has sternly warned the US to not get involved in Hong Kong's pro-democracy protests. China probably has the evidence that the US is actually pulling the strings from behind the scene.

    marky226 Krustallos, 03 October 2014 1:57pm

    China is dictatorship, meantime in America you have a country which is much the same when few vote and the rich and big companies run the country.

    arhead4u2 LarsPorsena, 04 October 2014 2:42am

    The following is a comment I read earlier:

    On Thursday, Wen Wei Po published an "expose" into what it described as the U.S. connections of Joshua Wong, the 17 year-old leader of student group Scholarism.

    The story asserts that "U.S. forces" identified Mr. Wong's potential three years ago, and have worked since then to cultivate him as a "political superstar."

    Evidence for Mr. Wong's close ties to the U.S. that the paper cited included what the report described as frequent meetings with U.S. consulate personnel in Hong Kong and covert donations from Americans to Mr. Wong. As evidence, the paper cited photographs leaked by "netizens." The story also said Mr. Wong's family visited Macau in 2011 at the invitation of the American Chamber of Commerce, where they stayed at the "U.S.-owned" Venetian Macao, which is owned by Las Vegas Sands Corp.

    Benny Tai "Occupy Central's" leader, has spent years associated with and benefiting from US State Department cash and support.

    "Occupy Central's" self-proclaimed leader, Benny Tai, is a law professor at the aforementioned University of Hong Kong and a regular collaborator with the NDI-funded CCPL. In 2006-2007 (annual report, .pdf) he was named as a board member – a position he has held until at least as recently as last year. In CCPL's 2011-2013 annual report (.pdf), NDI is listed as having provided funding to the organization to "design and implement an online Models of Universal Suffrage portal where the general public can discuss and provide feedback and ideas on which method of universal suffrage is most suitable for Hong Kong.

    The U.S. has certainly promoted regime change worldwide, often by using non-governmental organizations as front groups to funnel money to dissidents who will overthrow the government.
    For example, USAID has been called the "new CIA", and FBI whistleblower Sibel Edmonds told Washington's Blog that the U.S. State Department is involved in many "hard power" operations, often coordinating through well-known "Non-Governmental Organizations" (NGOs). Specifically, Edmonds explained that numerous well-known NGOs – which claim to focus on development, birth control, women's rights, fighting oppression and other "magnificent sounding" purposes or seemingly benign issues – act as covers for State Department operations. She said that the State Department directly places operatives inside the NGOs.

    Edmonds also told us that – during the late 90s and early 2000s – perhaps 30-40% of the people working for NGOs operated by George Soros were actually working for the U.S. State Department.

    If this all sounds too nutty, remember that historians say that declining empires tend to attack their rising rivals … so the risk of world war is rising because the U.S. feels threatened by the rising empire of China.

    marky226, 03 October 2014 12:33pm

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-openly-approves-hong-kong-chaos-it-created/5405387

    Isotropisch marky226, 03 October 2014 1:09pm

    You do know that the so-called "Centre for Research on Globalization" is actually one person, Michael Chussodvsky, a rampant conspiracy theorist and holocaust denier, who relates every single event in the world to a CIA/White House plot. He is the definition of an unreliable source.

    Reynardus, 03 October 2014 12:35pm

    Has the U.S. State Department come up with the color name for this "revolution"?

    21794h, 03 October 2014 12:36pm

    Unacceptable abuse of human rights and a peaceful protest? Waits for Cameron's statement supporting the Chinese regime...........

    guface 21794h, 03 October 2014 3:22pm

    abuse of human rights

    isnt the disruption of other people's livelihoods and stopping the progress of an entire city a bit of an abuse of human rights too?

    kw9751, 03 October 2014 12:51pm

    man, this article may have well been written by fox news.

    firstly for the clueless pressitutes here, the mong kok area in hong kong has no government buildings. its is a tightly packed area of small businesses and apartments.

    it is highly therefore highly likely the mob in question are local residents that have seen their business wreaked for a week and their sleep disturbed for an entire week.

    now imagine you have a bunch of hippies outside your door singing kumbaya all day, all night preventing you from working or sleeping for an entire. would you not want to beat them into a pulp too no matter how worthy their cause is?

    Prianichek, 03 October 2014 12:53pm

    Applause! US State Dept. set another country on fire. Who s gonna be next?

    VengefulRevenant, 03 October 2014 12:54pm

    The resort to lame abuse and insulting epithets against the opponents of the occupation by the Guardian "journalist" is actually rather pitiable. It's an infantile tantrum.

    Their Guardian's atavistic colonialist hopes were so high that the Occupy Central protest would cause severe political damage to China but the turnout for the demonstrations turned out to be rather underwhelming. And now the whole spectacle appears to be fizzling further.

    In their disappointment the Guardian petulantly editorialised that Brazil and South Africa and other non-European countries "must" join in the China bashing to provide cover for the attacks so that they didn't all appear to come from the usual suspects, the decrepit white empires. Of course none of the countries to whom the Guardian's liberal Colonel Blimps issued instructions paid them the slightest attention.

    Now that the demonstrators have overstayed their welcome with many residents of the occupied areas and have mostly have gone home, the Guardian is shedding bitter tears of rage and lapsing into hate speech. Sad really ... they would have happy with a win or a bloodbath but it looks like they won't get either.


    mapleflot VengefulRevenant, 03 October 2014 1:05pm

    Or you could just have free elections. Or is it `petulant' to suggest that if the majority are against protests, the majority would vote accordingly?

    VengefulRevenant mapleflot, 03 October 2014 1:23pm

    Yes, your comment is petulant, because it reflects a combination of arrogance and impotence.

    The point is this: what you think and want for Hong Kong and what the Guardian thinks and wants are completely beside the point.

    What happens in China will be decided by the people of China and not by liberal editorialists and commentators in Britain, no matter how convinced you are of your moral and political superiority.

    Britain isn't the boss in Hong Kong any more, get it? The British military dictatorship over the territory died with a post-imperial whimper. Your ruling class no longer rule there.

    The empire's over.

    Gang TieRen, 03 October 2014 12:55pm

    This is the old tactic of the Communist and now adopted by the Hong Kong government. These thugs are paid by the Communist to intimate freedom loving people just like what they are doing inside of China.

    Zakida Gang TieRen, 03 October 2014 12:57pm

    "These thugs are paid by the Communist to intimate freedom loving people just like what they are doing inside of China."

    canbeanybody Gang TieRen, 03 October 2014 1:03pm

    Those "occupy central" extremists are bona fide thugs who behave irrationally and unreasonably.

    They do what they did only because their American handlers told them so.

    It has nothing to do with "democracy" as it has everything to do with regime change.

    And the need for those Americans handlers to mobilize "Occupy central" I because they are not doing that great in terms of containing China with their lousy war machines, ganging up their little fellow "friends" in Far East to trouble China.

    nothingtoeat, 03 October 2014 12:57pm

    I love the how the author uses picture images propaganized her bias views. The pictures show the young occupier are calm, innocent, heoric, victomized where the contrast you see mid-age mob-looking, angry, vulger and wretched.


    StevenJ19, 03 October 2014 1:09pm

    We should be standing shoulder-to-shoulder with the pro-democracy activists, and if the Chinese don't like it, Hong Kong should become a British protectorate until free and fair elections have taken place.

    Wiseowl123 StevenJ19, 03 October 2014 1:22pm

    A very nice imperialist wet dream you are having there...why not go back to bed.

    VengefulRevenant StevenJ19, 03 October 2014 1:41pm

    Hong Kong should become a British protectorate until free and fair elections have taken place.

    And how long would that take?

    The British regime occupied Hong Kong for 144 years after grabbing it as a base for its opium-pushing operation into China. It was governed as a racist military dictatorship with an autocratic governor.


    Luke Taco Powell, 03 October 2014 1:10pm

    Stay calm Hong Kong, they can't fight you if stay peaceful.

    Sarah7591Wilson Luke Taco Powell, 03 October 2014 3:09pm

    Don't be naive. Of course they can. Look at what happened to those college students in California in 2011, whom the cops pepper-spayed directly into their faces and eyes as they were participating in a completely peaceful sit-down.

    StephenDaedalus, 03 October 2014 1:14pm

    Would be helpful to tell us more about the counter-demonstrators and what they have to say. "Thugs" on its own doesn't tell us much.

    游天 StephenDaedalus, 03 October 2014 1:29pm

    Because they are not thugs. They are mostly people living close by or have a tiny business in the same region. They are being disrupted not only during day time but 24 hours a day. It makes sense that they are fed up because in reality majority of the people in Hong Kong do not support this "protest". If you are interested, go back and check the poll of people who vote against this protest before it started.

    Babeouf, 03 October 2014 1:14pm

    Yes they have done the same at large demonstrations in the UK for years. You don't send in the riot squads until people start to drift away. And I expect it will be the same here. You don't want to be with the last few hundred demonstrators on which the authorities will leave a violent imprint. The Honk Kong Protesters appear to have commonalities with Occupy Wall Street many of whose members had the most fantastic illusions about what they were actually doing. In Honk Kong you knew they were done when the Western media highlighted their politeness.

    There are no polite revolutions. Perhaps they can put it on again next year for the tourists.

    VERBALWARRIOR, 03 October 2014 1:16pm

    Democracy does not prevent oppression, and in most EU and western states including the UK it is actually oppressive due to the electoral systems in place.

    Oppression is common in UK, though the use of English language, its definitions and meanings are used to deceive the reality.

    One just needs to watch/listen to Tory conference.

    The proposed freezes to public worker wage rises and to those on tax credits or even on benefits are forms of oppression, which reduces and removes peoples ability to maintain their living standards and lives. There can be no clearer reality of definition of oppression. This Tory group seek to afflict oppressive policies upon millions of people.

    In UK, our first pass the post electoral system is used to oppress the views and will of a vast number of citizens, very often in UK those elected are elected by a minority of those who actually voted in total, once all opposition votes for all parties are accounted for.

    All very well protesting and fighting for democracy, but at the end of the day it is the type of democracy that ultimately counts.

    sydsam, 03 October 2014 1:50pm

    Dear Guardian, Why pro-democracy activists and not pro-US separatist, as was labelled in Ukraine?

    [Oct 04, 2014] Hong Kong protesters beaten and bloodied as thugs attack sit-in

    February instructions from Ukrainian template are dusted off and reused. Good work Guardian. Reuse is a path to sustainable future ;-). From comments at marknesop.wordpress.com "Nothing for a while in the Facts-Are-Sacred Grauniad about the Ukraine: all has been overshadowed by ISIS and Hong Kong. So it's time for a non-story linked to the Evil Empire, just so as to keep the pot on the back-burner simmering, as it were..."
    theguardian.com

    pauloneill, 3 Oct 2014 21:15

    message to HK students:

    Don't bother - real democracy does not exist today - all you are fighting for is for an ultra-capitalist big business democracy which will leave you with someone like David Cameron.

    sbabcock, 4 Oct 2014 00:19

    It's incredible how talking heads on American cable news can talk with a straight face about the 'brute tactics' China is using on its people for demonstrating. What convenient lapses of recent memory...

    LostInWonder, 3 Oct 2014 23:47

    If protestors blocked off all major arteries approaching the West End of London and Westminster, and erected scaffolding and tents to do so so as to stop all commerce, they would be removed by police. It was made illegal to set up tents on the lawns in front of the houses do Parliament.

    The students in HK block off access to government buildings and swore to prevent the chief executive getting to work to force their agenda. Attempts to remove them by police is labeled in the West as Communist brutality.

    Just think about is.

    And how much coverage is there of the opinions of a large part of the HK public who are against the tactics and the demands of the students so as to provide a balanced picture? I know of many friends and relations in HK who are against what the students are doing but ther is no representation of their views in the foreign press. I wonder why?

    RudolfSteinerRules, 3 Oct 2014 23:42

    The goal of the US in Hong Kong is clear – to turn the island into an epicenter of foreign-funded subversion with which to infect China's mainland more directly.

    "Protesters of the "Occupy Central" movement in Hong Kong shout familiar slogans and adopt familiar tactics seen across the globe as part of the United States' immense political destabilization and regime change enterprise. Identifying the leaders, following the money, and examining Western coverage of these events reveal with certainty that yet again, Washington and Wall Street are busy at work to make China's island of Hong Kong as difficult to govern for Beijing as possible."

    http://journal-neo.org/2014/10/01/hong-kong-s-occupy-central-is-us-backed-sedition/

    spiritof1983, 3 Oct 2014 23:39

    If applied the benefit of rational thought and describe truthfully the context of the picture is totally different.

    In this case in Mongkok, Kowloon, the crazy fools have 'occupied' a main road junction in the middle of the district which is a very high density working class residential and shopping and restaurant area (non-luxury). Understand that the unlike western 'Occupy Movement' which is actually sit-ins (with a fancy name for re-branding an old form of visible dissention), that sit-in takes up a space but does not obstruct the functionality of the facility. In Hong Kong, the protest have morphed to blockade or near that, of selected main roads or government building complex. Especially to police movement. Kind of ironic that they then accuse the police of not coming to their aid, more so when they have taxed the police over so many areas and 24 hours a day for a week now.

    This blockade action is in fact closer to the actions in Thailand past (airport siege 2006 and 2008) which were for holding the economy hostage, through foreign tourist trade, and showing the government to be powerless thereby discrediting it. This is what the 'occupy' actions in Hong Kong have morphed into. An attempt to paralyse government and key commercial area. In Mongkok, the clowns are trying to paralyse a working class shopping and eating area (Mongkok would be frequented by more Asian tourists, especially mainland China, and HK local residents than Westerners). This is pure stupidity. Of course there will be resident backlash. Hell some might be mainland tourists as well, in addition to residents who are first generation mainland migrants or HKers (especially older ones) loyal to the mainland (patriotic, as opposed to loyal to CPC which is another thing and also in play). Definitely the petty traders and taximen who would consist more of poor mainlanders will be feeling the economic pinch and be among the angry lot. Triad/secret society boldness would be more in Kowloon and New Territories than in HK Island.

    This type of paralysis strategy is a form of brinkmanship. It worked in Thailand because, while the government was in the other parties hand, the armed forces and police (top echelon) was with the elite and the other party. Here in Hong Kong, the police at best is neutral, at worst more to the side of the status quo. The Army is with the other side. So playing this strategy protracted will bring out the residents against and eventually the law enforcement.

    The sit-ins have to be targeted and prolonged visible dissent. Not blockade and indiscriminate and unthought one at that. The right action of leadership, is not just to advise the protestors to abandon the Mongkok occupation for Admiralty for their own safety, but to in fact go further and disavow the Mongkok group's continued occupation as being counter productive and not lead by them. In Admiralty and Causeway Bay, it has to be sit-in, not blockade of movement.

    "They [the government] are trying to use the people to fight against the people. The cops are just going to stand here and watch – they are doing nothing about people breaking laws."

    Of course they are. In any population there is more than one side of the argument and support. Of course the government will adjust it actions to allow its side to also show their support. Its pointless crying foul about police not upholding the law when your own action of occupation which spurs the reaction, is illegal. There is a legal way of expressing public dissent in Hong Kong. Use it.

    As I wrote after the Thursday midnight ultimatum. There has to be better strategy and leadership. The 'occupy' strategy has failed. Moved to negotiations and rallying with sit-ins. The longer they 'occupy'/blockade the more local resentment will build up and more moved to express counter-protest via blue ribbon movement.


    spiritof1983 Cedrik Thibert, 3 Oct 2014 23:55

    ".....when your thug regime...."

    You are making the presumption I am Chinese. I am neither a Chinese national nor a Chinese ethnic of the diaspora. I am a Malaysian. Have posted here and regularly stated this. My old account is in fact ReaderMALAYSIA. Interestingly enough after I posted a view and approach dissenting to the common trend in the thread, post MH17 downing (that is a Malaysian carrier and I am Malaysian and I took the side of the Russian Ukrainians right to life, self defense, not our war and we should negotiate directly with the rebels to retrieve the bodies and conduct investigation), I was accused immediately by a contributor of not being a Malaysian. It seems the argument of people like you is to claim the other of being a cyberbot of the other side. Rather than to retort rationally. The key reason in this is the projection of infallibility (of the side of argument you favour) which is impossible and therefore unbelievable even to outside observers unfamiliar with the current event and place.

    IXOXOXI, 3 Oct 2014 20:46

    A US created Kiev re-run. Trying to force the Chinese to let up on vetting Govt candidates, and thus get a US paid stooge into power.

    But the necessary moral high ground isn't forthcoming. The authorities aren't biting. D'oh!

    So this 'evidence' is presented to us. The only evidence offered here of 'Thuggery' is one man trying to get home accused of physically taking on several thousand students, and a photo of someone with a bloody face.

    Locals and residents now suffering due to lost business, and getting understandably angry and vocal. Even the local organized criminals (triads) are apparently losing business.

    BTW, is it coincidental that the areas of unrest - around the Admiralty - centres around the location of the US embassy (consulate)? Google it.

    ryinmcd IXOXOXI, 3 Oct 2014 20:49

    I 'd shocked if US didn't get involved. You have to ask the citizens in Libya, Egypt, Iraq and others that are you better off today.

    TONY C, 3 Oct 2014 20:38

    This is mild compared to what protesters are exposed to in the United States of AmeriKKKa. Here in the US, police kill protesters. And then a grand jury is convened, and then the police are found innocent.

    jackscht TONY C, 3 Oct 2014 20:41

    Well, in China and Russia they don't even get to trial to be found innocent.
    So don't complain too much about your lot.

    illbthr22 TONY C, 3 Oct 2014 20:53

    Care to remind me when the last Tianamen Square level atrocity occured in the US?

    pauloneill illbthr22, 3 Oct 2014 21:06

    dude that was 26 years ago. Today's world looks a little different. Western governments have become more violent and intrusive towards their citizens while the Chinese have tried to tone it down a notch.

    Amazingly I would say they are not miles apart any more. Just shows that big business ultra-capitalist democracy is relly very similar to a dictatorship.

    [Oct 04, 2014] Arrival of Russian cossacks sparks fears in Bosnia

    theguardian.com

    Mr. Russian, 4 Oct 2014 00:40

    Here is the real reason for the article - http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/29/us-nato-balkans-russia-idUSKCN0HO11W20140929

    Pretty boring and predictable, actually.

    Note about Guardian Obamabot gross misstatement of facts

    Moscow Exile, September 28, 2014 at 2:13 am
    (Please delete above cocked-up posting and replace with what follows.)

    Today the Grauniad kicks off its daily ant-Russia spiel with this news agency article:

    Russia's Sergei Lavrov: the US cannot change the cold war in its 'genetic code'

    in which it is stated:

    Immediately before Lavrov spoke, the German foreign minister had said Russia's actions to retake Crimea were a crime.

    "Russia has, with its annexation of Crimea, unilaterally changed existing borders in Europe and thus broke international law", Frank-Walter Steinmeier said in his address to the world body. He spent considerable time speaking about what the west sees as Russian meddling in Ukraine."

    [Moscow Exile emphasis in block letters]

    JiminNH, clearly a Putinbot earning Kremlin shekels, then responds in the comments section, which is, as usual, being hammered by a Russophobe, who constantly writes of "Russian invasion of Crimea", "MH-17″, "Russian BUK", "Little Green Men", "Crimea elections held at the point of a Kalashnikov", "Putin lying about no troops in the Crimea" etc. thus:

    Referencing German FM Frank-Walter Steinmeier, the author [JimiNH means the author of the New York Associated Press agency report] said that

    He spent considerable time speaking about what the west sees as Russian meddling in Ukraine.

    The author grossly misstates the facts.

    Mr. Steinmeier's prepared speech contained 27 paragraphs. 6 referred to the UN in general. 5 referred to Ukraine. 4 referred to the ME crisis. 2 referred to Ebola.

    In reading the 5 paragraphs involving Ukraine, only 1 can be categorized as substantive criticism of 'what the west sees as Russian meddling…' Indeed, 2 were 1 sentence paragraphs. See for yourself:

    "That's why I must mention the conflict in Ukraine here. Some people in this chamber may regard this as nothing more than a regional conflict in eastern Europe. But I am convinced that this view is incorrect; this conflict affects each and every one of us. Not just any state, but a permanent member of the Security Council, Russia has, with its annexation of Crimea, unilaterally changed existing borders in Europe and thus broken international law.

    We had to counter this dangerous signal, because we must not allow the power of international law to be eroded from insidel We must not allow the old division between East and West to re-emerge in the United Nations.

    Because so much is at stake in this conflict, not only for the people in Ukraine but also for the future of international law, Germany and its partners have taken on responsibility and committed themselves vigorously to defusing the conflict.

    I am under no illusion. A political solution is still a long way off. That said, however, just a few weeks ago we were on the brink of direct military confrontation between Russian and Ukrainian armed forces. Diplomacy prevented the worst. Now the priority must be to bring about a lasting ceasefire and to arrive at a political solution, a solution based on the principles of the United Nations and preserving the unity of Ukraine.

    But I am not only talking about Ukraine! As long as this conflict is simmering, as long as Russia and the West are in dispute over Ukraine, this threatens to paralyse the United Nations. But we need a UN Security Council at is able and willing to act in order to tackle the new and, in the long term, far more important tasks we are facing. For the world of 2014 is plagued not only by the old ghost of division, but also by new demons."

    http://www.un.org/en/ga/69/meetings/gadebate/pdf/DE_en.pdf

    I might note that the 'political solution' and 'diplomacy (that) prevented the worst' did not originate in the efforts of Herr Steinmeier, nor of Sec.St. Kerry, nor FM Hammond, nor Mr. von Rumpuy. The political solution was brought about by the diplomacy of Russia, which sought diplomatic resolution to the conflict since the US and EU helped regime change the Yanukovych government in February and then saw CIA Director Brennan secretly travel to Kyiv just days before the post-coup, unelected government unleashed the dogs of war on the eastern Ukrainians who rose in opposition to the coup that reversed their two victories in the democratic elections of 2010 (presidency) and 2012 (parliament).

    As this short but sweet article demonstrates, the western 'free press' continues to serve as nothing but the mouthpiece for the US & NATO globalist elites to distort the facts and reality.

    The reason they do that is to condition the western audience for the oncoming global conflict being brought upon the world courtesy of the US Neocon warhawk's implementation of its declared national security strategy, called the "Wolfowitz Doctrine," to prevent Russia or any other country, or group of countries, from challenging our unilateral dominance of the world. And those Neocons are clearly willing to go to war to maintain that hegemonistic position."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfowitz_Doctrine

    Nice one, JimiNH!

    [Oct 03, 2014] Hong Kong protests: Violence 'organized', Occupy Central leaders say – as it happened

    Compare with Slightly Skeptical EuroMaidan Chronicles, December 2013 and Slightly Skeptical EuroMaidan Chronicles, January 2014

    marion4

    I'm a pro-democracy HK student. Whilst I don't agree with the views of the pro-Beijing groups, I accept that their voices have the right to exist in the city, because of something called freedom of speech. But yet these pro-Beijing groups try to stifle our voices through their fists...

    (By the way, there are witness accounts saying that the pro-Beijing groups are targeting female protesters and sexually harassing them...)

    canbeanybody marion4

    Once the law and order deliberately breaks down by those "occupy central" activists then many Hong Kong Chinese will suffer.

    This is why ever so important to maintain stability and law and order.

    Those law breakers ignoring the rules and regulation but just indulge in disruption and destruction, by blocking all major roads, blocking business and traffic then the city is paralysed.

    Students will miss their lessons and Hong Kong economy will be severely damaged.

    That is why Hong Kong authority appeal to all of you to disperse.

    Why not just heed the call?

    canbeanybody

    After Kiev, the Americans now think it is Chinese turn to get their deadly and nasty game.

    Although there are many "occupy central" extremists do exactly what those Americans say, yet they will fail.

    Arrest those nasty "occupy central" extremists who are now hidden behind. But first isolate them for the arrest. Impose heavy fines on them and impose long sentences on those most violent and notorious die hard extremists.

    MikeLundun canbeanybody

    Show your evidence.

    canbeanybody MikeLundun

    what evidence you want? The evidence the CIA met Kiev regime leaders? Or you want evidence the meeting between Americans agencies and "occupy central" extremists? Or you want evidence of meetings between "occupy central" extremists with foreign governmental officials?

    They are all in the press.

    It would not be that far fetched to say that they have discussed strategy and techniques.

    Are you saying otherwise?

    credox969

    The Guardian or how to turn HK business owners, store keepers and other bread winners into "pro-beijing rule" supporters. I'm getting disgusted reading this Guardian crap

    [Sep 28, 2014] Russia's Sergei Lavrov: the US cannot change the cold war in its 'genetic code' by Associated Press

    Sep 26, 2014 | theguardian.com

    Speaking at the United Nations General Assembly in New York, Lavrov said the crisis in Ukraine was the result of a coup d'etat in that country backed by the US and the European Union for the purpose of pulling Kiev out of its "organic role as a binding link between" east and west, denying it the opportunity for "neutral and non-bloc status".

    Lavrov also said the Russian annexation of Crimea earlier this year was the choice of the largely Russian-speaking population there.

    Immediately before Lavrov spoke, the German foreign minister had said Russia's actions to retake Crimea were a crime.

    "Russia has, with its annexation of Crimea, unilaterally changed existing borders in Europe and thus broke international law," Frank-Walter Steinmeier said in his address to the world body. He spent considerable time speaking about what the west sees as Russian meddling in Ukraine.

    Selected Skeptical Comments
    LeDingue, 27 September 2014 9:04pm

    the increasingly anti-western stance of Russia's president, Vladimir Putin

    Or how about 'the increasingly defensive Russia' that has been targeted by US provocations in Ukraine, a constant programme of media destabilisation using CIA "pet" oligarchs and a network of Ngo front organisations.

    The US plan with the Ukraine operation was to split EU-Russian trade and political relations. No doubt 10 years of NSA surveillance of all EU leaders and top civil servants helped generate some "leverage" to persuade Europe to go along with this self-harming plan.

    All this anti-Russia or anti-Putin media crusade is aimed at destabilising Russia politically. Then Iran will be a sitting duck for the US-Wahabi terror sponsors to destroy it with jihadi proxies like they're doing to Syria.
    Oh, and the "pet" oligarchs can then return Russia to the broken kleptocracy that Bush1 oversaw there.

    Russia was progressing with European relations. This "increasingly anti-western stance" is code for "having taken measures to prevent US subversion" and for having rebuffed attempts to pin the MH17 attack on them or the rebels. So it's more a question of "America's increasingly desperate measures in attacking Russian stability".

    The US has to destroy this emergent Russian stability (it's just 14 years since the end of the Yeltsin chaos) that represents an obstacle to the US-Saudi-Israeli Eurasian ambitions. They want the Qatar-Turkey pipeline - Russian backed Assad said no. Russian backs Iran, long a target for Saudi hatred (and Israeli), and surviving even after years of strangulation sanctions. They have huge oil & gas reserves. Russia stands in the way of the Brzezinski-Wolfowitz plans for domination so they must be attacked.

    davidpear -> LeDingue, 27 September 2014 9:39pm

    US-Saudi-Israeli Eurasian ambitions.

    The US has lusted to colonize Russia and exploit its natural resources as far back as the US invasion of Russia in 1918. It is a forgotten military disaster for the US but not forgotten by Russia.

    goatrider, 27 September 2014 9:07pm
    Lavrov said the crisis in Ukraine was the result of a coup d'etat in that country backed by the US and the European Union for the purpose of pulling Kiev out of its "organic role as a binding link between" east and west, denying it the opportunity for "neutral and non-bloc status".

    Well said

    davidpear -> goatrider, 27 September 2014 9:48pm
    Well said

    It was the EU that offered an unacceptable miserly trade deal to Ukraine and then said that they had to choose between the EU or Russia but could not take both trade deals. It intentionally drove a wedge between already existing divisions within Ukraine.

    Bosula, 27 September 2014 9:09pm
    Crimea has had three referendums since 1991 and they have all supported independence from Ukraine. Two of these referendums were organised by Kiev and they refused to recognise the results.

    Crimea has consistently not seen itself as part of Ukraine.

    sodtheproles -> Bosula, 27 September 2014 9:25pm
    What has democracy got to do with it? That's our prerogative, to impose on or deny to others as we see fit, and in this instance, the Crimeans plainly aren't suited to democracy, since the results of their ballots fail to pass the basic democratic test of coherence with Western policy on Ukraine.
    davidpear -> sodtheproles, 27 September 2014 9:51pm
    What has democracy got to do with it? Nothing. US foreign policy has nothing to do with democracy, freedom, human rights and even life itself. It is all about what is best for US and multinational corporations.
    RedPeony, 27 September 2014 9:29pm

    Lavrov is right. USA acts like they are above everybody else. The sooner we learn that their way is the only way the better. It's frustrating. I don't know what's worse: when they openly bully you or when they pretend to be your friends (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erYpXzE9Pxs).

    Papistpal -> RedPeony, 27 September 2014 10:15pm

    RedPony,

    No hard feelings. We want to be your friend. Please provide your address and we will send our special "Friendship Drone" with special gifts and prizes for you and all your friends.

    HansVonDerHeyde -> RedPeony, 28 September 2014 2:26am

    U.S "Democracy" and "Freedom" coming to a country near you.

    Ivan Borisov, 27 September 2014 9:38pm

    I think one of the recent episodes of Die Anstalt,, the german satirical show on German ZDF channel sums it up quite nicely.

    r7781lt , 27 September 2014 9:56pm
    To us old folks to hear a German foreign minister preaching about invasion of other countries sounds like bitter irony.

    Just fill in the blanks in the sentence " The Reich has, with its annexation of ****, unilaterally changed existing borders in Europe and thus broke international law" Uh huh, nihil sub sole novum

    ShadySunny -> r7781lt , 27 September 2014 10:05pm
    1. Russia's long term end goal is to survive and prosper through the collapse of the AngloZionist Empire.

    2. Russia's mid term goal is to create the conditions for regime change in Kiev, because Russia will never be safe with a neo-Nazi russophobic regime in power in Kiev.

    3. Russia's short term goal is to prevent the Kiev junta from over-running Novorussia.

    4. Russia's preferred method to achieve these goals is negotiation with all parties involved.

    5. A prerequisite to achieve these goals by negotiations is to prevent the Empire from succeeding in creating an acute continental crisis (conversely, the imperial "deep state" fully understands all this, hence the double declaration of war last week by Obama and Poroshenko).

    The Russian response to a double declaration of war

    Arapas , 27 September 2014 10:07pm

    the German foreign minister had said Russia's actions to retake Crimea were a crime.

    You need some neck, the size of a lamp post, to make such statement.

    Your country Monsieur started 2 world wars, killing 27 million Russians during the second. Your country dished out cruelty only matched by the Americans, and their Supermaxes.

    I happen to be British, but If I was Russian, and I mean Sergei Lavrov, I would be permanently having your country in my nukes eye sights.

    You have done it twice, you will do it again.

    splodgeness Arapas , 27 September 2014 10:14pm
    I'm British too. You really need to examine what you were taught about the wars:

    Nazism is usually depicted as the outcome of political blunders and unique economic factors: we are told that it could not be prevented, and that it will never be repeated.

    In this explosive book, Guido Giacomo Preparata shows that the truth is very different: using meticulous economic analysis, he demonstrates that Hitler's extraordinary rise to power was in fact facilitated -- and eventually financed -- by the British and American political classes during the decade following World War I.

    Through a close analysis of events in the Third Reich, Preparata unveils a startling history of Anglo-American geopolitical interests in the early twentieth century. He explains that Britain, still clinging to its empire, was terrified of an alliance forming between Germany and Russia. He shows how the UK, through the Bank of England, came to exercise control over Weimar Germany and how Anglo-American financial support for Hitler enabled the Nazis to seize power.

    This controversial study shows that Nazism was not regarded as an aberration: for the British and American establishment of the time, it was regarded as a convenient way of destabilising Europe and driving Germany into conflict with Stalinist Russia, thus preventing the formation of any rival continental power block.

    Guido Giacomo Preparata lays bare the economic forces at play in the Third Reich, and identifies the key players in the British and American establishment who aided Hitler's meteoric rise.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Conjuring-Hitler-Britain-America-Third/dp/0745321828

    ... ... ...

    JiminNH, 27 September 2014 10:15pm
    Referencing German FM Frank-Walter Steinmeier, the author said that

    He spent considerable time speaking about what the west sees as Russian meddling in Ukraine.

    The author grossly misstates the facts.

    Mr. Steinmeier's prepared speech contained 27 paragraphs. 6 referred to the UN in general. 5 referred to Ukraine. 4 referred to the ME crisis. 2 referred to Ebola.

    In reading the 5 paragraphs involving Ukraine, only 1 can be categorized as substantive criticism of "what the west sees as Russian meddling..." Indeed, 2 were 1 sentence paragraphs.

    See for yourself:

    That's why I must mention the conflict in Ukraine here. Some people in this chamber may regard this as nothing more than a regional conflict in eastern Europe. But I am convinced that this view is incorrect; this conflict affects each and every one of us. Not just any state, but a permanent member of the Security Council, Russia has, with its annexation of Crimea, unilaterally changed existing borders in Europe and thus broken international law.

    We had to counter this dangerous signal, because we must not allow the power of international law to be eroded from insidel We must not allow the old division between East and West to re-emerge in the United Nations.

    Because so much is at stake in this conflict, not only for the people in Ukraine but also for the future of international law, Germany and its partners have taken on responsibility and committed themselves vigorously to defusing the conflict.

    I am under no illusion. A political solution is still a long way off. That said, however, just a few weeks ago we were on the brink of direct military confrontation between Russian and Ukrainian armed forces. Diplomacy prevented the worst. Now the priority must be to bring about a lasting ceasefire and to arrive at a political solution, a solution based on the principles of the United Nations and preserving the unity of Ukraine.

    But I am not only talking about Ukraine! As long as this conflict is simmering, as long as Russia and the West are in dispute over Ukraine, this threatens to paralyse the United Nations. But we need a UN Security Council at is able and willing to act in order to tackle the new and, in the long term, far more important tasks we are facing. For the world of 2014 is plagued not only by the old ghost of division, but also by new demons.

    http://www.un.org/en/ga/69/meetings/gadebate/pdf/DE_en.pdf

    I might note that the "political solution" and "diplomacy (that) prevented the worst" did not originate in the efforts of Herr Steinmeier, nor of Sec.St. Kerry, nor FM Hammond, nor Mr. von Rumpuy. The political solution was brought about by the diplomacy of Russia, which sought diplomatic resolution to the conflict since the US and EU helped regime change the Yanukovych government in February and then saw CIA Director Brennan secretly travel to Kyiv just days before the post-coup, unelected government unleashed the dogs of war on the eastern Ukrainians who rose in opposition to the coup that reversed their two victories in the democratic elections of 2010 (presidency) and 2012 (parliament).

    As this short but sweet article demonstrates, the western "free press" continues to serve as nothing but the mouthpiece for the US & NATO globalist elites to distort the facts and reality.

    The reason they do that is to condition the western audience for the oncoming global conflict being brought upon the world courtesy of the US Neocon warhawk's implementation of its declared national security strategy, called the "Wolfowitz Doctrine," to prevent Russia or any other country, or group of countries, from challenging our unilateral dominance of the world. And those Neocons are clearly willing to go to war to maintain that hegemonistic position.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfowitz_Doctrine

    LeDingue -> JiminNH , 27 September 2014 10:24pm

    v

    Good comment.

    At least someone is prepared to do a little research in the face of the endless media "spin".

    FlangeTube, 27 September 2014 10:17pm
    Can anybody, reasonably. disagree with this analysis?

    American "leadership" is not a constant in an uncertain world, it is a myth only Americans ever believed. American foreign policy is to protect American political, economic and corporate interests - that is all. They push selfish aims behind a mask of "democracy" and have done nothing but sewn chaos around the world.

    American "leadership" is a meaningless lie that fewer and fewer people can even speak with a straight face. Its economy is propped up with imaginary money and crushing debt and in its panic to secure its place at the head of the table it is pushing insane policies against China, Russia and various countries in the middle east.

    America is not a good guy, and only Americans ever thought it was.

    P212121 -> FlangeTube, 28 September 2014 12:07am

    American foreign policy is to protect American political, economic and corporate interests - that is all.

    Sometimes I think it is less than that.. Who benefited from the mess in Iraq, Libya, Syria? American people or economy certainly did not. Very few people did, and I think it is all about them.

    Black Cat, 27 September 2014 10:31pm
    The German FM knows the truth of it, as we all do, and the recent debacle in Ukraine proves there's a limit to how far Europe is prepared to go in order to sustain the US's insane aims for global dominance.
    seamuspadraig -> Black Cat, 27 September 2014 11:45pm
    It seems to me that Europe went to far already. Here's what the sanctions are doing to the German economy: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-27/not-even-dead-cat-bounce-russia-sanctions-whiff-reality-sink-%E2%80%98economic-expectations%E2%80%99
    RudolfSteinerRules, 27 September 2014 10:43pm
    "And Crimea was not "annexed," the Crimean people voted to secede in a referendum. The fact that the new illegal and unelected government in the Ukraine argued that the secession of Crimea violated the Ukrainian Constitution was truly ironic given that same government came to power through the unconstitutional overthrow of the country's democratically-elected president. And given the number of people in Crimea who voted to secede and the vast numbers of people in Eastern Ukraine who are fighting for secession rather than live under the new US and EU backed government, it is clear that the Euromaidan movement did not speak for all Ukrainians."

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/26/obama-rewrites-history-at-the-un/

    Miron, 27 September 2014 10:44pm
    Dear FM of Germany,

    How many mass graves were found in the path of Obama's junta in Ukrain, please.

    FlangeTube -> nickpossum, 27 September 2014 10:49pm
    Helping to negotiate a ceasefire between the rebels and Kiev was bullying? Giving them gas, despite billions in unpaid bills, is bullying?

    Go ask Iraqis or Syrians if they would rather be "bullied" by Russia or "liberated" by America.

    aprescoup -> UKey123, 28 September 2014 12:17am
    Nazi Germany was a criminal State but Hitler did the world a favour by provoking a global war, the consequence of which was the end of European colonialism. Hitler even did the Jews a favour: the Jews finally received a homeland. Without the WW2, decolonialization by Britain, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Portugal would never have happened. History is complicated. Russia will be doing humanity a favour if Putin triggers a full sanctions conflict with the West, and that sanctions conflict leads to the end of US-EU hegemony, the collapse of the US Dollar, and the end of the Washington Consensus, IMF; World Bank, UN, mass consumerism, denial of climate warming, and more.

    Trudi Goater, 27 September 2014 8:21pm

    Actually I'd say he's right it is about time America stopped telling everyone how unique it is! it's unique in it's ability to chaos chaos and mess the wold up and that's it as far as I can see!

    MikeBB2 -> Trudi Goater, 27 September 2014 8:27pm

    Indeed - all that "uniqueness' is as mythical as the supposed benefits brought to the world by the British Empire!

    Barbacana -> MikeBB2, 27 September 2014 10:02pm

    as mythical as the supposed benefits brought to the world by the British Empire!

    Well at least the Brits built railways in some of their colonies. The US on the other hand blows them up. So I think you're being too kind to the US.

    Saint_mean -> Barbacana, 27 September 2014 10:47pm

    The railways that were conceived and built for the primary purpose of accomplishing the primary goal of empire building - that is, total appropriation and exploitation of the riches of the colonized countries for the main benefit of Britain? Now, many years after, any suggestion that this is a credit to Britain, or that the dispossessed should be thankful for this is not only a crude attempt at revisionism, it is also tantamount to asking the victim of a violent robbery to recognize some 'benign' act of the robber to the victim while he was being violently robbed.

    GoodmansParadox -> ElectroMagneticPulse, 27 September 2014 11:42pm

    It never ceases to amaze me how the practice of repeating a lie can be interpreted as becoming proof.

    We know that the "little green men" in Crimea weren't Russian troops, although Russian troops ensured there would be no conflict between the Crimeans who shrugged off Kiev's authority, and the poor Kievan forces confined to bases. As Lavrov said As Putin said.

    A peaceful counter-revolution happened in Crimea, and the Crimean people gained their self-determination. Let's applaud this, hey?

    The same happened in Donetsk and Luhansk, but because Russian forces weren't there to keep the peace, Kiev sent in the tanks, slaughtering the civilian population and causing mass displacement. Yet some people still support the murderers from Kiev.

    Why is that?

    LeDingue -> GoodmansParadox, 27 September 2014 11:56pm

    It never ceases to amaze me how the practice of repeating a lie can be interpreted as becoming proof.

    Well said.
    Some people just never tire of repeating it!

    Otuocha11 -> ElectroMagneticPulse, 28 September 2014 2:27am

    "Lavrov's reputation was trashed yonks ago, he is just a Putin yes-man. He just stirs and lies, as it suits him."

    If Lavrov's reputation is questionable what would you say about Kerry, Blair, Clapper, and those three-tongued Americans who keeps on deceiving the public? Are there no 'yes' men in the US? The first yes-man is you, period.

    littlebigcoala -> ElectroMagneticPulse, 28 September 2014 2:31am

    ElectroMagneticPulse said: "is it normal in Ukraine, and perhaps Russia too, for local militias to be equipped with vast amounts of modern weaponry, enough in fact, to overrun the territory of another country?

    They were decked in the full kit, from boots to helmets, with flak-jackets, camouflage, equipment, and assault rifles (current models, in use with the Russian army). There were no rag-tag soldiers, with Wellington boots and pitchforks.

    ==============

    1. remember Chechnya? - where did chechens got their weapons and equipment that helped them actually to win in first chechen war against Russian federal forces?

    2. Local regional police in Crimea actually sided with militia from the very begining - maybe it was another source of weapons

    3. your photo may depict local militia as well as Russians troops - but whae (what date) it was made? - you can aquite (buy) uniform in Russia and they had support from business I am sure - so it is not a proof - there were some well equiped, others badly equipped - we saw both

    4. Crimean Riot Police regiment "Berkut" accused in Kiev in supporting Yanukovych on Maidan was on the side of separatists of Crimea from the first day of separatist protest - they (Crimean riot police regiment were under investigation by Kiev and immidiatelly openned their storage/uniform/arms and even vehicled for separatists...


    etc.etc...

    are you honest enough to agree that you was wrong with your "arguments"?

    Indianrook -> ElectroMagneticPulse, 28 September 2014 2:58am

    The uniqueness of the veracity is that it can be said by anyone.

    It is also not correct that only idiots believe the lies. In history there were incidents like the (in) famous WMD search that was supposedly existed in the middle east and almost all in the west had believed that story. Unfortunately there still exist many who believe in the similar type of stories land certainly they are not idiots.

    davidpear, 27 September 2014 8:51pm

    Vladimir Putin, who is riding a wave of popularity at home

    Russians are united because the rightfully feel under attack. It is the US lead NATO that is militarily encircling Russia. Not the other way around. The US and the EU are turning logic on its head by blaming Russia for the destabilization of Ukraine.

    ElectroMagneticPulse -> davidpear, 27 September 2014 9:10pm

    The good thing about Russia losing the Cold War, and its status as a superpower, is it can no longer project its military strength. It is limited to playing in its own backyard, and harassing places like Chechnya and Ukraine - albeit with fearsome casualties.

    Since Putin invaded Crimea, NATO has been resurrected. It is reforming, deploying troops eastwards, and Russia's worried neighbours are ardently flocking to NATO and pledging their allegiance.

    After the Cold War, NATO was virtually defunct, and for the last 25 years has been scrabbling around for a reason to exist - but Putin has gifted it new purpose. This could end with NATO bases and troops strung along Russia's borders from the Black Sea to the Baltic.

    Might be that Putin has committed a massive strategic blunder.

    davidpear -> ElectroMagneticPulse, 27 September 2014 9:28pm

    playing in its own backyard

    If the US would stick to "playing in its own backyard" the world would be a more peaceful place.

    foolisholdman -> ElectroMagneticPulse, 27 September 2014 10:33pm

    After the Cold War, NATO was virtually defunct, and for the last 25 years has been scrabbling around for a reason to exist - but Putin has gifted it new purpose. This could end with NATO bases and troops strung along Russia's borders from the Black Sea to the Baltic.

    Might be that Putin has committed a massive strategic blunder.

    For something that was "virtually defunct" it certainly cost!

    If it has been defunct all this last 25 years what is it going to cost now that it has come back to life?

    Where did all the money that was spent on this moribund, shadowy organisation, go? Any ideas?

    Since the West is allegedly "virtually bankrupt" can it afford a newly revitalized NATO?

    secondiceberg -> ElectroMagneticPulse, 27 September 2014 11:00pm

    Intolerably turbulent and bloody is exactly what the world is now. The U.S. and some of its allies have broken more international laws than any other country.

    Bullybyte ElectroMagneticPulse , 27 September 2014 11:09pm
    [The Ukraine] is a sovereign, independent nation - in the same manner as Denmark, Germany or the Czech Republic.

    It is nothing of the kind. It is a failed state.

    If countries resolved their territorial disputes by theft, and at gunpoint...

    They do. Ask Obomber and Cameron. The Ukraine also tried to resolve its territorial disputes by theft and at gunpoint. They lost.

    Ukraine's borders are protected by international law...

    They are protected by their own ability to maintain them.

    DELewes -> jbrebb , 27 September 2014 11:35pm

    Really? Ukraine's decision to move towards adopting EU models of governance and economics, and leave Russia's behind is the West's fault? If you hadn't noticed, almost every former Warsaw Pact and USSR member has run away from Russia by choice.

    Shame on you for buying Lavrov's rationalization for Putin's Folly.

    HansVonDerHeyde -> DELewes , 28 September 2014 2:31am

    So Maidan Protesters beating kids who wore St.George Ribbons or Russian Flags never happened? Protesters throwing molotov at the police , taking and burning government buildings never happened right? Protesters parading police officers with the word "slave" written on their head never happened? Protesters shooting at the police , patrolling Kiev streets with guns and bats also never happened ?

    U.S sending Senators, Diplomats, Secretary of State, CIA Director to Maidan also never happened.

    Shame on you for missing a lot of chapters on Ukraine Crisis and not thinking enough.....

    [Sep 24, 2014] Russia planning to limit foreign ownership of its media by Roy Greenslade

    Western owned media is a tool for implementing color revolutions and as such is a direct threat to sovereignty of any nation. Unfortunately...
    Sep 24, 2014 | The Guardian

    Russian politicians are seeking to reduce western ownership of its media. The Financial Times reports that a bill to limit foreign investment in its media to 20% has received parliamentary support.

    At present, foreign stakes in radio and television are capped at 50%, but no such restrictions have previously applied to print media.

    Significantly, the proposal was supported by president Vladimir Putin's party, which suggests it has a strong chance of becoming law.

    If it does, the shake-out would affect several of the world's leading media groups. They include Condι Nast, Disney, Bauer, Burda and German's Axel Springer. And Russia's leading business daily, Vedomosti, is part owned by the Financial Times and the Wall Street Journal.

    Source: Financial Times

    Selected Skeptical Comments

    Clacko, 24 September 2014 9:55am

    Fair enough, don't see why foreign media should own a country's media, especially when Western media loves to undermine Russia at any opportunity.
    LeDingue -> Clacko, 24 September 2014 6:08pm
    Given the role played by media with foreign sponsorship in Ukraine, to harness, propagandise and promote the Maidan protests - the "cover" for the coup d'etat - it is absolutely no surprise that Russia might take this defensive measure.

    People in the Britain (or just England really) try not to talk about the direct personal role played by Rupert Murdoch, via his media, in pretty much deciding who will control parliament. For the last 35 years it has been possible to identify the winner of an upcoming election by looking at headlines in The Sun and spotting those small news stories about which politician has been "summoned" to Murdoch's yacht.

    Obviously in Ukraine it was a more focussed and planned strategy to create multi-media platforms for what was a mass propaganda drive, EuroMaidanPR, InterpreterMag Kiev Post (in English) etc. Not only Ukrainians were the targets of this strategised propaganda but also the diaspora and us citizens of "Nato countries".

    It looks like the "Maidan Moscow" plan of Western intelligence & their "pet" Russian oligarchs will not succeed, the RF government has already taken a variety of anti-subversion measures. Of course the media and internet are important "weapons" to seek to destabilise another country.

    It won't stop the US trying of course....returning Russia to economic & political chaos is their objective, just like Bush1 in the 90s.

    littlebigcoala, 24 September 2014 2:06pm
    Russian politicians are seeking to reduce western ownership of its media. The Financial Times reports that a bill to limit foreign investment in its media to 20% has received parliamentary support.

    =========

    what is % of foreign pownership in BBC,. CNN, ABC etc...I mean REAL foreign ownership as Murdoch as an Australian is hardly REAL ALLIEN for UK or USA....

    LeDingue -> littlebigcoala, 24 September 2014 9:07pm
    The arguments for "free market" private ownership of media as being beneficial for an open pluralist society, that some people make in complete ignorance of reality, are confounded when one observes two things:
    -- the process of concentration through corporate acquisition
    -- the overlap on corporate boards across companies (and sectors) of a relatively small number of people, their political connections and the "revolving door" covert corruption of legislature--private interests--regulatory bodies.

    "Free market" is a confidence trick and a lie that conceals the reality of corporatism and oligarchy. This has corroded and hollowed out what is euphemistically still called "democracy" in the US, and increasingly in the UK.
    "Foreign ownership" is a key tool to promote transnational corporatism and the media is one of the keys to controlling and manipulating populations into being blind to the confidence trick (and to corruption).

    ijustwant2say, 24 September 2014 3:29pm
    Another step towards Putin's total suffocation and control of the media in Russia. Once he invokes 'emergency powers' and shuts of the Internet he can do a 'China' and have almost total control.
    LeDingue -> ijustwant2say , 24 September 2014 6:56pm
    Whilst we're all so terribly concerned about the 14 year path of social development in Russia, from the very low base of chaos and kleptocracy of Yeltsin's era -- just 14 years --, one could also wonder about the concentration of media control in the US as well as their Patriot Act-NDAA provisions, not to mention the ever handy 'continuity of government' tool always handy. Oh, and the mass surveillance of the Echelon grid.

    Suffocation and control indeed. US military grade anthrax, when needed to silence discussion of particular ideas, also proved exceptionally effective.

    Mr. Russian, 24 September 2014 8:27pm
    Russia finally acknowledged that MSM is used as weapons inside the country. Anyway, whoever wanted to read BBC in Russian will continue doing so and whoever was reading RT in English will do so as well.

    [Sep 23, 2014] http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/09/russia-putin-revolutionizing-information-warfare/379880/

    ThatJ , September 14, 2014 at 10:38 am
    Russia and the Menace of Unreality
    How Vladimir Putin is revolutionizing information warfare

    [...]

    Like its domestic equivalents, RT also focuses on conspiracy theories-from 9/11 truthers to the hidden Zionist hand in Syria's civil war. Western critics often snigger at these claims, but the coverage has a receptive audience. In a recent paper, "The Conspiratorial Mindset in the Age of Transition," which examined conspiracy theories in France, Hungary, and Slovakia, a team of researchers from leading European think tanks reported that supporters of far-right parties tend to be more likely than supporters of other parties to believe in conspiracies. And right-wing nationalist parties, which are often allied ideologically and financially with the Kremlin, are rising. In Hungary, Jobbik is now the second-largest political party. In France, Marine Le Pen's National Front recently won 25 percent of the vote in elections for the European parliament.

    "Is there more interest in conspiracy theories because far-right parties are growing, or are far-right parties growing because more conspiracy thinking is being pumped into the information space?" asks Gleb Pavlovsky, a little wickedly.

    The United States, meanwhile, is struggling with its messaging to the outside world. America is in an "information war and we are losing that war," Hillary Clinton told Congress in 2011, citing the success of Russian and Chinese media.

    * * *

    Just as the Kremlin's international propaganda campaign intensifies, the West is having its own crisis of faith in the idea of 'truth.' It's been a long time coming. Back in 1962, Daniel Boorstin, who would later serve as librarian of the U.S. Congress, wrote in The Image about how advances in advertising and television meant, "The question, 'Is it real?' is less important than, 'Is it newsworthy?' … We are threatened by a new and a peculiarly American menace … the menace of unreality." By the 2000s, this idea had moved from the realm of commerce to the realm of high politics, captured in the now-legendary quote from an unnamed George W. Bush aide in The New York Times: "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality-judiciously, as you will-we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors … and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

    The pressure on reality from capitalism and Capitol Hill coincides with an anti-establishment drive in the U.S. that likewise claims that all truth is relative. In a Prospect magazine review of Glenn Greenwald's No Place to Hide, for instance, George Packer writes, "Greenwald has no use for the norms of journalism. He rejects objectivity, as a reality and an ideal." (Similarly, RT's managing director once told me that "there is no such thing as objective reporting.") Examining the sins of omission, biased value judgments, and half-truths in Greenwald's book, Packer concludes that "they reveal a mind that has liberated itself from the basic claims of fairness. Once the norms of journalism are dismissed, a number of constraints and assumptions fall away." The ties that bind Greenwald and the Kremlin consist of more than a shared desire to ensure Edward Snowden's safety. In some dark, ideological wood, Putin the authoritarian gay-basher and Greenwald the gay, leftist-libertarian meet and agree. And as the consensus for reality-based politics fractures, that space becomes ripe for exploitation. It's precisely this trend that the Kremlin hopes to exploit.

    Ultimately, many people in Russia and around the world understand that Russian political parties are hollow and Russian news outlets are churning out fantasies. But insisting on the lie, the Kremlin intimidates others by showing that it is in control of defining 'reality.' This is why it's so important for Moscow to do away with truth. If nothing is true, then anything is possible. We are left with the sense that we don't know what Putin will do next-that he's unpredictable and thus dangerous. We're rendered stunned, spun, and flummoxed by the Kremlin's weaponization of absurdity and unreality.

    kirill, September 14, 2014 at 10:49 am
    The Atlantic is a piece of shit rag that I wouldn't wipe my ass with even if it was the only source of paper available. Its hilarious 2006 article on the state of Russia's economy was written as if Russia was still in 1996. The above piece of propaganda tries to smear RT as a conspiracy website. Sure thing there, lying fucks, if a TV station interviews more than just the establishment approved pundits then it must be a tin foil hat operation. Right.

    Does anyone here think that the Peter Lavelle moderated talk show is a tin foil hat operation? Anyone sane would not. The Atlantic is caught in a paradox created by its own arrogant lying. The western media is repeating the brain dead propaganda of the war criminal Kiev regime like an echo chamber. Perhaps the appeal of RT may have something to do with people that have functional brains wanting to have real news reports and not regurgitated press releases.

    marknesop, September 14, 2014 at 12:42 pm
    George Packer is a malicious fool, and his stock in trade is deliberate misrepresentation: his indignation at Greenwald's alleged "rejection of objectivity" is the kind of jaw-dropping projection that regularly sees the western press pretend to virtue and support for freedom while it supports a government which murders its own citizens for the crime of claiming their right to self-determination. I don't need to spank him till he cries – someone has already eviscerated him, here.

    The really comical irony, if irony can be said to be comical (and believe me, it is more often than is not) is that Max Weber's insight on ethical dilemmas – from which Packer draws heavily for his criticisms – almost eerily describes America's simplistic reasoning and the bad decisions it makes as a result of its deliberations; to wit, "a specific kind of unworldliness, which assumes that from good actions only good things come, and from evil actions only evil." Read Crooked Timber's critique – I think you will find yourself nodding along as I did.

    colliemum, September 16, 2014 at 12:27 am
    Re 'conspiracy theories' and 'far right parties' in Europe being close to the Kremlin or paid by Putin: that's a very interesting slur.
    It seems to me that it's the Think Tanks which are succumbing to conspiracy theories, in order to smear further these 'far right' European parties. They can see full well that said parties, far from being 'far right', are an ever growing threat to the establishment parties in the EU. The establishment parties in most EU countries call themselves conservative or socialist or liberal, but except for their party colours there is no difference between their policies. The latest election results from Germany and Sweden show that these parties, now gaining a steady 10-13% of votes, are 'hoovering up' votes from all parties, or are 'poaching' votes from the establishment parties, in the words of German journalists.
    Just as here in the UK, where UKIP is causing the collapse of the Liberal Democrats (coalition partner in the current government), so the German FDP, their liberal party, is nearing obliteration.
    Note well: these parties are 'liberal' in the European sense, not in the US sense where liberal=left.
    Thus it is no surprise to me to see this latest smear coming from those Think Tanks. They, after all, strive to keep the status quo, where across countries the politicians of the establishment parties are interchangeable and do what they're told by powerful international lobbies.
    Us peasants and our new parties are a thorn in their flesh, and must be vilified by all and any means possible to save the status quo.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/20/g20-nations-want-vladimir-putin-despite-ukraine-tensions#comment-41198794

    G20 nations want Vladimir Putin at summit despite Ukraine tensions

    Russian president set to attend the G20 leaders' summit in Australia despite anger about MH17 and conflict in Ukraine.

    Manolo Torres, 21 Sep 2014 10:49
    Dear Guardian,

    The sub-headline is still there. Everyone is of course free to direct their anger at whoever they want, they might have their own reasons. But it is not the job of a newspaper to use the feelings or assumptions of politicians to direct the feelings and opinions of its readers. "Facts are sacred", remember?

    And the fact regarding MH17 is that there is still an investigation going on, an investigation that in its preliminary report didn΄t even hint what was the actual weapon that caused the tragedy.

    We have seen many politicians taking political advantage of this tragedy, exploiting the death of 300 innocent people in horrible circumstances, to advance their agenda. And without providing anything remotely close to factual evidence.

    In that sense, I would recommend your editors to be more cautious and more responsible with the kind of language that they use. It wouldn΄t be the first time that the people in power use such a tragic event to deceive and manipulate public opinion; and the investigation could deliver results that would make those so openly and vehemently angry towards the Russian president be seen as doing exactly that.

    Let΄s wait until the investigation is completed, and if it is the case that the Russians and the Russian president are accountable, we will welcome the most derogatory article in your New East Network. In the meantime lets be more responsible and lets help people stay within the realms of facts and reason during this troublesome times.

    Regards,

    M

    Vasilescu Valentin, 21 Sep 2014 07:53
    Guardian Pick http://english.pravda.ru/world/ussr/09-09-2014/128484-boeing_crash_report-0/
    Cirmic Vasilescu Valentin 21 Sep 2014 08:37
    Good article. No wonder the US tries to foil the investigation.
    Agatha_appears 21 Sep 2014 06:32
    Putin is a good statesman, but the West is doing everything to get rid of him, to overthrow him. This is the main gpal of sanctions. Russians should stay united.

    [Sep 21, 2014] Mikhail Khodorkovsky breaks political silence, saying he would lead Russia by Agence France-Presse

    September 20, 2014 | theguardian.com

    The former tycoon Mikhail Khodorkovsky, who spent a decade in jail after challenging the Kremlin, says he would be ready to lead Russia if called upon.

    Khodorkovsky's statement, at the launch of an online movement called Open Russia, appears to break his promise to steer clear of politics, which he made after being pardoned by president Vladimir Putin in December.

    "I would not be interested in the idea of becoming president of Russia at a time when the country would be developing normally," he was quoted as saying by Le Monde newspaper.

    "But if it appeared necessary to overcome the crisis and to carry out constitutional reform, the essence of which would be to redistribute presidential powers in favour of the judiciary, parliament and civil society, then I would be ready to take on this part of the task."

    Open Russia is intended to unite pro-European Russians in a bid to challenge Putin's grip on power.

    "A minority will be influential if it is organised," Khodorkovsky said during a ceremony broadcast online from Paris.

    Khodorkovsky and his allies said political change could come quickly and insisted the time had come to think of Russia's future after Putin.

    He stressed that his project – named after his charity that was shut down after his imprisonment – would be an online "platform" for like-minded people, not a political party.

    But he did not anticipate Putin would approve.

    "I expect him to be upset," Khodorkovsky said.

    Russian activists and prominent emigres including Paris-based economist Sergei Guriyev and London-based businessman Yevgeny Chichvarkin – both of whom fled the country under pressure from security services – joined the online ceremony.

    Khodorkovsky, who lives in Switzerland with his family, openly supported the Ukrainian uprising that ousted a Moscow-backed president in February, but indicated he did not want a bloody revolt for Russia.

    The former head of the defunct Yukos oil firm sakd all those supporting a pro-European course for Russia should before parliamentary elections scheduled for 2016.

    "We support what they call the European choice or a state governed by the rule of law," he said.

    "We believe that the statement 'Russia is not Europe' is a lie that is being imposed on society on purpose.

    "This is being done by those who want to rule the country for life, those who want to spit upon law and justice," Khodorkovsky said in a thinly veiled reference to Putin.

    "We are Europe, both in terms of geography and culture.

    "We are not simply Russian Europeans. We are patriots. And true patriots even during pitch-dark reactionary times should serve their country and their people."

    Khodorkovsky's supporters expressed hopes his project would raise awareness among Russians and help them see through state propaganda.

    "It is time to open our mouths," Chichvarkin said.

    "We are ahead of a long, hard and dangerous path," the former deputy finance minister and economist Sergei Aleksashenko said.

    Russian state media appeared to enforce a blackout on news coverage of Khodorkovky's project.

    His spokeswoman Olga Pispanen said the project's website, openrussia.org, became the target of distributed denial of service attacks.

    Attempts to prevent activists from joining the ceremony were reported in the central Russian cities of Nizhny Novgorod and Yaroslavl.

    While many scoffed at Khodorkovsky's effort to rally Russians while in exile, some said the project could pay off in the long run.

    "Such a project is sorely needed," political analyst Mark Urnov said, calling it an "antidote" to the country's grim reality.

    imperfetto, 21 Sep 2014 11:56

    I used to be on his side, when Khodorkovsky was kept in jail.... But now I'm very suspicious of him, since he has backed Maidan's fascist coup. I would through a question for him, right now: what are you going to do with Russia's natural resources? the ones which the multinationals and the Americans are so eager to place their hands on (just like drunken Yielstin happily allowed...remember? ); would you sell them out at a friendly price? Would you let the CIA and their corrupted servants intrude in the heart of the Russian system in the name of the magic word: democracy?

    What democracy? the one that feels the pockets of the criminals that, facing right punishment, have fled to USA, UK, Switzerland etc.?

    Leigh Pankhurst, 21 Sep 2014 11:53

    I expect him to have a nasty mishap courtesy of Putins henchmen.

    federalreservesystem -> Leigh Pankhurst, 21 Sep 2014 11:56

    He's too insignificant for that, just another crook to be used by the west.

    FlangeTube, 21 Sep 2014

    Russian activists and prominent emigres including Paris-based economist Sergei Guriyev and London-based businessman Yevgeny Chichvarkin – both of whom fled the country under pressure from security services – joined the online ceremony.

    "under pressure from security services"....to stop defrauding people, return their stolen money and stop bribing politicians.

    Apparently nobody at this paper understands, or wants to understand, Yeltsin's Russia. It was a total mess, with gangsters making billions while ordinary people suffered. Russia is still recovering, slowly, and the USA will do anything to make sure it doesn't.

    FlangeTube, 21 Sep 2014 11:42

    The former tycoon Mikhail Khodorkovsky, who spent a decade in jail after challenging the Kremlin...

    What? He spent time i jail for defrauding the Russian people of billions of dollars, and "challenging the Kremlin" by not giving it back.

    And he's not a "former tycoon" he is still, illegally, massively massively wealthy.

    Him being president of Russia would be worse than Yeltsin.

    FlangeTube, 21 Sep 2014
    Oh of course. The nice lovely pretty man made a personal fortune in excess of $15bn in deregulated 90s Russia totally honestly.

    There is no evidence he was ever "set up" that was the Western spin. He was one of the worst offenders of the Yeltsin era.

    It's totally backwards how Yeltsin is seen over here, he was drunken corrupt fool who degraded and destroyed his country, and he's a "good Russian leader", and Putin - who has made it his policy to fight Yeltsin-era corruption is portrayed as corrupt. It's totally arse about face.

    federalreservesystem 21 Sep 2014 11:36
    Hodorkovslkij did his time for fraud and tax evasion, now he's a free man, who kept his billions and freely expresses his "political" views.But hey there is no freedom in Russia according to The Guardian
    phakorr, 21 Sep 2014 11:34

    Isn't this the guy who sued Russia, and every Russian has to pay out about 300$ in debt? He might be interested in becoming the Russian president, might even have some imaginary support or he might get real support with US / EU lobbying and funding.. but after Ukraine, what sane Russian would vote for such a puppet who has served time in jail, when there is a couple thousand more FSB stock-blank-no-namers who can supersede Putin, in a way emulating him and getting people in line and to do stuff instead of selling out every national asset to the west like Yeltsin did.

    splodgeness, 21 Sep 2014 11:34
    By - The Washington Times - Sunday, November 2, 2003

    LONDON (Agence France-Presse) - Control of Mikhail Khodorkovsky's shares in the Russian oil giant Yukos have passed to renowned banker Jacob Rothschild, under a deal they concluded prior to Mr. Khodorkovsky's arrest, the Sunday Times reported.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2003/nov/2/20031102-111400-3720r/

    Oligarch's arrest deepens fears over Russian economy
    Vladimir Yevtushenkov under arrest and facing prospect of selling Sistema company in what critics call 'undisguised theft'

    Yevtushenkov's holding company, Sistema, whose board directors include the Labour peer Lord Mandelson.

    Where Mandelson is, so are the Rothschilds.

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/sep/17/oligarch-yevtushenkov-arrest-deepens-fears-russian-economy

    Anette Mor -> splodgeness, 21 Sep 2014 11:46
    Thanks. I sensed that link. Another Russian oil asset grab story with western ends.
    BecauseIcare, 21 Sep 2014 11:17
    in the not so distant past I supported this Khodor...y (too difficult name to spell!), in fact, I thought his release was good news. I was hardly interested in what was happening in Russia or around it. I was also cheering at the news that Gaddafi was caught...

    Things changed since the Snowden affair. I started digging into the politics beyond what the mainstream media preaches.

    I now support Russia because I understand that the US is trying to bring Russia down all in the name of greed. Just the way they brought down Iraq, Libya, Egypt, trying to bring down Syria and Iran.

    The US is trying to turn the whole world into a Guantanamo. In Europe we are not going to be spared either.

    The world will be a safer place without the US political/banking elite.

    This Khodor...y is a US puppet.

    Anette Mor -> BecauseIcare, 21 Sep 2014 11:21
    Welcome to reality
    Anette Mor, 21 Sep 2014 11:14
    I actually think this particular rant by Khodorkovskij is not related to hopes to put him instead of Putin but more related with allegation against Systema and oil in Bashkiria. Is lord Mandelson related to Systema? UK is all over that lot with GSK making a deal with Russian Systema owned pharma pushed through the top of British politics. Any news on that front? People in Bashkiria have something to say - nothing dropped into local budget from that oil asset grab which was done by their former governor together with the said Systema oligarch now under investigation. The west sanction Russian deals on Arctic's sea oil? There is enough oil on Russian main land. Like this Bashkiria resort.
    va20061976el, 21 Sep 2014 11:10
    There is no fascists in Ukraine...
    Beelza -> va20061976el, 21 Sep 2014 11:17
    It would help if we defined our terms, beginning with fascism. Nice homogeneous starting point.
    SysConfig -> va20061976el, 21 Sep 2014 11:57
    This is interesting...I take it then that Oligarchs in Russia fear the government leaders and Here our Leaders fear the Oligarchs ..and why in the latter case they dance with who paid for the prom and limo...and not who brung them to the dance..the voter.

    My take on this gentlemen is that he is no different than any of the oligarchs before he him and after..here nor there.

    The extreme sense of entitlement and the world is my sandbox is extremely evident imo.. .

    If we compare what is happening now to us with these Titans and ever increasing wealth gap and disconnect from our own problems..then we kno he would not lead Russia in any different direction than a billionnaire here pulling the strings be it Koch or Soros..

    An excellent but rather long read..but worth it...then come back and re read our Freedom loving Oligarch in exile.

    http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175893/tomgram%3A_steve_fraser%2C_the_return_of_the_titans/#more

    Playing God

    The Rebirth of Family Capitalism or How the Koch Brothers, Sheldon Adelson, Sam Walton, Bill Gates, and Other Billionaires Are Undermining America By Steve Fraser

    George Baer was a railroad and coal mining magnate at the turn of the twentieth century. Amid a violent and protracted strike that shut down much of the country's anthracite coal industry, Baer defied President Teddy Roosevelt's appeal to arbitrate the issues at stake, saying, "The rights and interests of the laboring man will be protected and cared for... not by the labor agitators, but by the Christian men of property to whom God has given control of the property rights of the country."

    To the Anthracite Coal Commission investigating the uproar, Baer insisted, "These men don't suffer. Why hell, half of them don't even speak English."

    We might call that adopting the imperial position. Titans of industry and finance back then often assumed that they had the right to supersede the law and tutor the rest of America on how best to order its affairs. They liked to play God. It's a habit that's returned with a vengeance in our own time.

    Our imperial tycoons are a mixed lot. They range from hip technologists like Zuckerberg to heroic nerds like Bill Gates, and include yesteryear traditionalists like Sam Walton and the Koch brothers. What they share with each other and their robber baron ancestors is a god-like desire to create the world in their image.

    Watching someone play god may amuse us, as "the Donald" can do in an appalling sort of way. It is, however, a dangerous game with potentially deadly consequences for a democratic way of life already on life support.

    justTR, 21 Sep 2014 11:04

    stuperman said: OK, stay comfort from a change for the better by accepting your Kremlin controlled media and corrupt government.

    ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

    you have already changed for the better the Ukraine, Egypt, Iraq, The world will never cope with the chaos caused by the "democracy" you've given birth to in these countries. Thank you very very very much.

    That's the example of the democracy in an American (Ukrainian) way.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2s0LxoSotE
    A Ukrainian MP is in a trash can. It's useless to apply at the police.

    Beelza -> justTR, 21 Sep 2014 11:12
    Forget the ice bucket challenge. How about 'politicians in the Bin?'
    Anette Mor -> maninBATHTUB, 21 Sep 2014 11:33
    There is some settle difference between abuse of personalities and court decisions. Nobody penalized Kasparov. He is from Azerbaijan not Russia. He does not like something in Russia, can say whatever just like yourself. Navalnny is under house arrest for some meddling with regiinal timber business. Khodorkovskij was in jail for stealing state assets, avoiding tax and ordering killing of former partner. The human rights court found these charges valid.
    fedupwiththeliesalso -> maninBATHTUB, 21 Sep 2014 11:41
    "Not forgetting hundreds of people on flight MH17 who are now not here...."

    That is far more insulting to the victims.

    I am sure they will sleep in comfort knowing that you are using them as a weapon to attack others.

    Danie Nortje -> Ahhbisto, 21 Sep 2014 11:36
    And the influence of media in the west is any different?

    The Scotland referendum had a great analysis piece done by a professor supporting the Yes campaign explaining the BBCs bias. And in the US a politician is only as influential as their media coverage, which typically requires lots of money, which requires lots of donations through lobby groups.

    The only difference imho is that the US is effectively politically controlled by powerful corporations, i.e. they decide policy and appoint politicians, whereas in Russia (and Ukraine) powerful oligarchs/business people are directly involved in politics

    Babeouf, 21 Sep 2014 10:45
    Here is a story that shows how wacky the regime in Kyiv has become,a regime backed by the Guardian. 'Ukrainian military chief's allegations about the use of tactical nuclear weapons at Lugansk's airport in eastern Ukraine.' Yes according to Ukraine the war went nuclear and amazingly no one noticed. Still I wouldn't want this nuke thing to detract from the new claim from Ukraine that the Ukrainian military would have punched its way out of the paper bag if it had been wet and but for the unexpected arrival of 100,000 Martians with flaming ray guns.
    Bluebird101, 21 Sep 2014 10:54
    I think Russian's have had enough of the old guard and remnants of the clan(s) of oligarchs and their merry men, who became so rich and powerful, by ripping off the very people, during the "free for all" and "grab it while you can," Yeltzin years...I.e. The very people they now pretend to speak out for.

    Let us not forget.. that pre - Putin's years...these clans of the (then) emerging and merging oligargh's - Khorodokovskiy included, had turned the Kremlin into nothing less than their very own personal coffee shop: with the sole intention on agreeing on how to carve up their ill - gotten gains between them, with little more than a nod and a handshake agreement between them.

    Would the majority of Russian people accept the return of these people as heads of state..? I think not.

    Memories are long and their past deeds are still far from forgotten nor forgiven.

    Bosula -> Bluebird101, 21 Sep 2014 11:16
    Could the West with US support fund enough NGOs - a fifth column - to get a coloured revolution going in Russia in a few years time.

    Quite a few colours have been used now - could 'red' be used again?

    Bud Peart -> spiceof, 21 Sep 2014 10:53
    I don't even think they care about women's rights. Rarely see them write an article about women in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan... And if they do its usually a 'things are getting so much better' feel good bollocks.

    If they cared about women's rights they would not have supported the Muslim Brotherhood in Libya and Syria. Set rights back about 1000 years there.

    bluemersey, 21 Sep 2014 10:17
    Lol, yet more shoddy anti-journalism, Guardian. Orientalism at work: when they support the West then they're a 'Tycoon' but when they don't suit our purposes they're an 'Oligarch.' And he went to jail simply for upsetting the Kremlin did he, that's just reported as fact now is it?
    Bud Peart -> bluemersey, 21 Sep 2014 10:22
    Noticed that as well. When they are Jihadis in Syria they are 'democracy activists' when they are Al Qaeda in Iraq, they are blood lusting Jihadis ISIL
    Tattyana, 21 Sep 2014 10:17
    Is this news the first checking ball to investigate reaction and popularity or the first implant of the idea to brains to start a new media company? As otherwise it is not more than a nonsense and a wear attempt to revive political face of one almost forgoted person.....
    Bud Peart, 21 Sep 2014 10:16

    he would be ready to lead Russia if called upon

    ....by the US, not the people of Russia...

    Bud Peart -> T.p. Archie, 21 Sep 2014 10:17

    But the lot of most Russians is bleak poverty.

    Thanks to criminals like Khodorkovsky who robbed the assets of the Russian state.

    Anette Mor -> T.p. Archie, 21 Sep 2014 10:22
    Democracy would suggest to become Russian president he has to move to Russia and get majority of votes. All all know it is not going to gappen. So hexwill never be a president by legitimate means. You want to talk us into a coup putting some questionable gemagogia above thee key principles of Russian society. A man to rule Russia has to serve Russia and Russian people. Simple rule. Works well. That is how a german born Ekaterina could become a Great Russian Queen. And Georgian Stalin could lead Russians through destruction of the war into strong industrial state and space pioneering. This man got no substance. Can write something to contribute to russian soul searching. any more - not his calible.
    T.p. Archie -> Anette Mor, 21 Sep 2014 10:42
    People follow patterns. The pattern of democracy is only strong in the West; elsewhere it blurs into other ways. No easy answer to Russian problems. Democracy could be one aspiration but its history ties it too strongly to its past. Central Planning, the Czars, the Tartars and back to the Mongols.
    Other ways?
    One could be to observe a state going through the process of EU accession. This would take several years; i.e. real time. Despite flaws, EU structures have value; even if only to offer something different to Russian soul-searching (which is a statutory duty!).
    Anette Mor -> T.p. Archie, 21 Sep 2014 10:51
    The pattern of democracy in the West? There us no represebtative politics in the west gor long time. You call one power - rulling party a demicracy? Without proportional representation, direct eldctions and devision of power? With queen own land and inherited sits. With no minority representation in any form or shape? You can live in your bubble. While Russians can continue developing modern institutions for three separate powers ballancing each other, two directly elected, with full proportional representation by population coubt in one chamber of parliament and one voice per nationslity in another, by clear split between federal and local power with delegation scope defined by constitution.You live in political stone age and the only way you are aableto hold on is self absorbtion on own racial superiority supported by no ending brainwash on alleged faults of other nations.
    Andrey Andreevich K, 21 Sep 2014 10:05
    Thanks, but no. Don't need our 'Poroshenko' in Russia
    stuperman -> Andrey Andreevich K, 21 Sep 2014 10:18
    OK, stay comfort from a change for the better by accepting your Kremlin controlled media and corrupt government.
    Report Andrey Andreevich K -> stuperman, 21 Sep 2014 10:38
    I doubt a lot, that Khodor will change smth for the better. But what is more likely, he will change for the worst.
    Continent, 21 Sep 2014 10:02
    @Tattyana

    I wonder if he managed to hide enough money to buy to play Russian President? Or just hopes for USA and IMF help?

    He has lots of money and good connections to the US

    http://imrussia.org/people

    Mikalina, 21 Sep 2014 10:01
    As a High School teacher, I must say that this 'putinbot' sneer sounds much like the 'yer mom' which the Year 9 boys yell at each other in the playground.
    Anette Mor -> Mikalina, 21 Sep 2014 10:34
    Sure. We saw whathigh school students are tild in the UK. My 10 years old demanded we kill our ill cat as it is inhumane to get her treated. Major re- education effort was requied. At 11 she took part in a school play showing ww2 as a fun time. Nobody killed a lot if fun of all kind. Like a field trip with added flirting with american soldgiers. Had to make a history lectures of ww2 atricities and death toll. at 12 she said british troops in Afghanistan defending thier country. That one was easy. Just bought her a map. At 14 there was a story of a gitl fingered by 5 at school yard. Whole year of re-education on sex matters. At 16 she has whole year on Kennedy assacination. Had to tell her to add Olof Palma and Patris Lumumba and Salvador Aliende to the mix. British school program sucks.
    ID9793630, 21 Sep 2014 10:01
    I know it is fanciful fiction, but whenever I watch The Bourne Supremacy I can't help seeing the Gretkov character as a sort of shady Khodorkovsky figure...

    I've no idea if the real life Khodorkovsky was quite as deadly corrupt as that in his rise to prominence but I just can't help making the leap of imagination...

    I wonder who the script writers were actually thinking of as a template for the character.

    ; )

    BecauseIcare, 21 Sep 2014 10:01
    according to a German TV programme, this guy is a crook who stole from the people by not paying his fair share of taxes thus becoming an oligarch. Putin did the right thing by imprisoning him, but he did the wrong thing by letting him out.

    These oligarchs mostly became rich by avoiding taxes, selling oil, the natural resource that should belong to everybody, and putting the profits into their pockets.

    Who is going to listen to him? This is another US-paid agent.

    Anette Mor -> BecauseIcare, 21 Sep 2014 10:05
    He was let out as his mother had cancer and she was about to die. He was taken on german private plain directly to Germany while his mother was dying in Russia. Cheap man. Sold his soul.
    Beelza, 21 Sep 2014 10:01
    Mr. Khodorkovsky could roundly beat Putin on one issue-Announce he'll immediately re-open all 8 McDonalds Putler had closed. 2 of the 8, were the world's busiest McDonalds franchises.lmao
    Anette Mor -> Beelza, 21 Sep 2014 10:09
    The logical gaps in western propaganda are striking. First you hear Russia is a country full of babushkas with covered heads and alcoholics not able to afford the basics. Them you hear they would die for McDonalds as the only source of good food and culture. While real russians wear expensive fur, go to opera and thier kids eat hot freshly cooked dinner in every school.
    hekna, 21 Sep 2014 09:56
    "...Mikhail Khodorkovsky, who spent a decade in jail after challenging the Kremlin"

    The European Court of Human Rights determined that the criminal charges against Khodorkovsky were not politically motivated. So this would be more honest if it read "who spent a decade in jail after breaking the law".

    Also, as covered before, he's a former oligarch, a more concise description than "tycoon".

    ID9793630 -> chekna, 21 Sep 2014 10:09
    What is most significant about the oligarchs seems to be that none of them seem to have actually built a business empire in the genuine sense from the ground up but seem only to have been people who could navigate the administrative process of acquiring divested state assets:

    In the right place at the right time, and made the right connections with the right people and greased the right hands whilst successfully warding off the worst of the lethal gangster violence of the time (or in some cases successfully perpetrating the worst of the violence whilst leaving no credible witnesses alive).

    Difficult to say from the outside exactly what was the profile for Khodorkovsky's rise, but the common denominator is that he surely did not actually build anything from scratch? He is not a James Dyson or an Alan Sugar or a Richard Branson is he?

    weavere, 21 Sep 2014 09:51
    Interesting times. The last politician with pretensions to lead Russia and based (briefly) in Switzerland was Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov, also known as Lenin.

    weavere -> daylight101, 21 Sep 2014 10:12
    Lenin didn't work out very well for the West.
    daylight101 -> weavere, 21 Sep 2014 10:17
    why not? tsarist russia was destroyed and some parts of it became eastern regions of the west, soviet Russia was excluded as economic competitor and contained mainly in isolation so that the west could get raw materials from there and sell its production back.
    weavere -> daylight101, 21 Sep 2014 10:35
    Your ideas seem odd. Lenin was backed by Germany. You seem have forgotten bits of Russian and Soviet History that don't fit with current international political realities. You forget that in WWI Tsarist Russia was an ally of Great Britain, France and (laterally) the United States. Russia's collapse, the Bolshevik revolution, and the treaty of Brest-Litovsk between the Bolshevik Russia and German were certainly not welcome by Britain, France or the United States. Lenin's attempts to export the revolution threatened the power of those states, and undermined the international order under those states' tutelage (revolutions in Bavaria, Hungary, and laterally Austria).

    Those states, as you should recall, tried to oust Lenin and overturn Bolshevik rule by sending troops into Russia, and bolstering White forces. In the end they realized that they did not have the ability or political will to overturn the Bolsheviks, and that the Whites could not win the war. The Soviet Union became a great power, nonetheless, under Marxist-Leninism - and Russia's reappearance as a great power, under its new name, is undeniable. It is also undeniable that, until the export of the revolution to China, Lenin's creation was the only real alternative (and threat) to Western hegemony.

    To claim that Lenin was "good" for the West is to ignore all that. Moreover, by doing so you negate a large part of Russian history and ignore the great power status of the USSR - something today's Russia has not even begun to approach.

    daylight101 -> weavere, 21 Sep 2014 10:51
    yes, i believe ussr was bad for russian people and without october revolution russia would be much stronger, in my opinion, than ussr was.

    the whole story is complex, but what i actually say is this - the west is desperate to control other nations and it not always works ideally for the west. however the tactics of the west is exactly this - to undermine competitors, and for this purpose - to propel wars and revolutions abroad.

    if you check facts from european history then you probably will see that each of european countries at some point in its history was in hostile and brutal opposition with each of its neighbour.

    it's a pattern. the both world wars originated in europe. so, it will be good for russia to stay away from europe at longer distance and do not mix as much as it was during last 20+ years.

    weavere -> daylight101, 21 Sep 2014 11:05
    I agree that the USSR was bad for Russians (and Ukrainians, and all the rest). I think a prosperous Russia, or rather prosperous Russian citizens (big difference!) would be excellent for the entire world, not just Russia.

    Security is also important. If a little distance from Europe would make Russians feel more secure, that can't be a bad thing. It could make all of us feel more secure, here in the West as well.
    To give that distance, it might be nice if the EU, NATO and Russia could agree to allow Ukraine to be a non-aligned buffer state.

    Something like Tito's Yugoslavia, only without the communist ideology this time. I am afraid that, now, the race is on to take Ukraine, not to allow it to develop as a neutral country - and this is no good for anyone. Please note that I am not blaming any one power for the situation in the Ukraine.

    Interference is coming from every direction, so I don't expect this solution to be accepted by anyone, which seems a shame.

    daylight101 -> weavere, 21 Sep 2014 11:15
    i agree that longer distance between the west and russia is in their own interests. i think that contacts between these went too far and too fast after collapse of soviet union in 1992 - there were alot of false hopes on both sides. i actually rather blame my country (russia) for this as it allowed too much to westerners, imo.

    about ukraine, i think that army of novorossia has to advance and defeat kiev, and then split ukraine so that it will be twice less or even lesser in size that it's now. if the west will get involved then russia has to nuke the west on massive scale.

    weavere -> daylight101, 21 Sep 2014 11:34
    That seems insane, to me, and rather hard on Ukrainians. They must endure war, civilians will be killed, because they have a regime you do not like. Why should Ukraine be made smaller? What benefit would that bring, and to whom? How will that make anyone more secure, anywhere?

    No one doubts Russia can do what it wants with Ukraine, through violence. NATO made it clear that it will not go to war for Ukraine. But if Ukraine is crushed and divided by Russia, NATO will be strengthened ideologically as never before.

    As to your other idea:

    NATO is giving weapons to Ukraine, and the EU is sending cash. If Russia nukes the West, we will all be dead - including you - , except some few in distant rural areas. Moscow will be ash. Washington will be smoke. St Petersburg will be no more. London will be gone. Almost all of the European continent, from France to the Urals, will be uninhabitable. Novosibirsk will be flattened, and so will Denver.

    Mutually assured destruction used to assure nuclear weapons would not be used. In Soviet times (I remember) Moscow never threatened - not once - to use nuclear weapons first. Indeed, Moscow always said that to do so would be disgusting, and inhuman. Moscow always claimed that the threat of nuclear war came from the West, and that the West would use them first - never Moscow. The USSR would, however, respond with total destruction of the West (first of all, the US) if attacked with nuclear weapons.

    This insistence that the Soviet Union would never use nuclear weapons first, and the fear that America might, was something repeated by ordinary Russians in those times.

    I find it not only strange, I find it terrifying and even disgusting that ordinary Russians - and even some statesmen in the Duma and elsewhere - talk so glibly about the need to "nuke the west."

    daylight101 -> weavere, 21 Sep 2014 11:45
    destruction of the west might be the only way to stop the current western foreign policy. it's basically the motivation.

    p.s. i do not see really any kind of self-curing mechanism in the west that would properly address the issues raised by snowden, for example and the other issues - such as going into wars abroad on feeble grounds, support for a coup in kiev.

    the west has became a hindrance for progress.

    weavere -> daylight101, 21 Sep 2014 12:15
    You should change your internet name to Brig. Gen. Jack D. Ripper.

    So, just because the West is corrupt, you think its citizens should be turned to ash? (along with most Russians). The only way to save us all is to kill us all, is that it? There is no other way? No half-measures will do? It's change, or die?

    Before you press that button, before we are all incinerated, allow me to assure you that we do not want to sap and impurify your precious bodily fluids. We certainly do not wish you to put fluoride in your water.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1KvgtEnABY

    In no way would we wish to threaten your life essence. Do, please, keep denying that essence to women and others - as the purity of your thought shows you do now.

    Yours,
    The impure.

    daylight101 -> weavere, 21 Sep 2014 12:35
    if the west starts the wars abroad it has to be ready for backfire.

    about ukraine - that's actually 'not harsh on ukraine'. if you check the results of its their presidential elections during two decades of independence then it will be obvious that there is a tendency for fifty-fifty split (pro-western and pro-Russian) on the map. i.e. i's political and geographical split simultaneously. so dividing ukraine into two (or more) parts can be a good thing for all sides, imo, as a part of political settlement of the crisis. unfortunately, Kiev is not ready for such split (as it would be seen as a defeat for kiev) so it's likely to settled on ground by rebel forces.

    fedupwiththeliesalso, 21 Sep 2014 09:45
    Why is there is so much dislike for Russia?

    Throughout its history it has been the victim of invasion after invasion(by Britain, France, Germany, Poland and the ottomans). Even became vassals to the aisans in the east at one time. The tatars sold them as slaves to the turks. And now everyone calls them paranoid.

    Then we look at some of the leaders of the Soviet union. You have Stalin, he could be considered one of the most evil men in history. But he was Georgian. Then there is Khrushchev. The man on the trigger of the greatest threat America has ever known. (Cuban missile crisis). He and Brezhnev were both Ukrainian.

    So three very dangerous Russians, who were not Russian. But had absolute power.

    Gorbachev (Russian) is credited with Perestroika and Glasnost - Cold War - HISTORY.com

    I could go on in more detail but I think you can see the picture I am painting here.

    Asimpleguest -> fedupwiththeliesalso, 21 Sep 2014 09:52
    Russia is envied: farm fields, minerals, now technology (strong weapon industry), cheap labor force. Regardless who is in power at Kremlin - the financial mafia from Wall Street wants to make profit on Russia's resources!

    So - the gangsters who are managing the world's money need a puppet to serve them in Kremlin.
    Putin is a strong president - and above all he LOVES Russia and wants to make it strong (he might be an autocratic leader - but he is a PATRIOT as well). This is a great threat for US and its allies.

    joebstarsurfer, 21 Sep 2014 10:23
    If the Graund was left wing they would give Russians a voice they have none at the moment.
    Bud Peart -> joebstarsurfer, 21 Sep 2014 10:32
    The Graun is pro establishment neo liberal. They placate so called lefties by raging about gay marriage and other sideline issues.
    spiceof -> Bud Peart, 21 Sep 2014 10:36
    AND women's rights, I'll let you know, they're big on that.

    Equitable distribution of wealth, that's so passe old chap. This a hipster's publication now.

    Bud Peart -> spiceof, 21 Sep 2014 10:53
    I don't even think they care about women's rights. Rarely see them write an article about women in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan... And if they do its usually a 'things are getting so much better' feel good bollocks.

    If they cared about women's rights they would not have supported the Muslim Brotherhood in Libya and Syria. Set rights back about 1000 years there.

    [Sep 14, 2014] Putin wants to destroy Ukraine and restore Soviet Union, says Yatseniuk

    From comments: " I'm not sure quite why The Guardian feels it necessary to repeat every single lie which comes out Kiev but this website is now wholly untrustworthy. Perhaps things will improve and this newspaper will remember what journalism is but until that happy day arrives, I'll be getting my news from organizations which have not taken it upon themselves to act as the press agents for a collection of neo-Nazi thugs." and "This story really is quite disgraceful. The main stream media is in a race to the bottom."
    The Guardian

    Doom Sternz, 13 September 2014 8:50am

    Russia is not out to destroy Ukraine, pure propaganda by a US installed neo Nazi.

    The US-approved prime minister of Ukraine, Arseny Yatsenyuk of the "Fatherland Party," referred to Russians as "subhuman," echoing the racist vitriol of Nazism Yatsenyuk and others in his regime subscribe to.

    Andriy Parubiy, co-founder of the fascist Social National Party, which later changed its name to Svoboda became the new top commander of the National Defense and Security Council. (covering the military, police, courts and intelligence apparatus). Dmytro Yarosh, Right Sector commander is now second-in-command of the National Defense and Security Council.

    There should be international outraged.

    Doom Sternz -> AuObserver, 13 September 2014 9:21am
    Total rubbish, his political approach? We have neo Nazi militia's ethnically cleansing the east, commiting crimes against humanity.

    While Yatsenyuk is busy trying to ramp up the violence by rallying NATO to expand the war, international peacekeepers will begin the task of implementing a seven point peace plan put forward by Vladimir Putin.

    The difference between the peacemakers and the warmongers has rarely been as stark as it is today.

    We have neo Nazi militia's ethnically cleansing the east, and you support them?

    BarneyQ -> Doom Sternz, 13 September 2014 10:02am
    As much as I dislike the coup, nazi battalions and nazi parties facts need to be stated clearly. Yarosh was never confirmed as Paruiby's deputy however the rest is correct he did co found the nazi party, the man is a nazi and as secretary was in daily contact with the nazi battalions his bastard child.

    Parubiy was replaced in early August then peace broke out.

    The deaths in the east are the responsibility of Kiev they launched the attack sent the nazis and shelled civilians.

    umut gezer -> Konstantin Blyuss, 13 September 2014 10:45am
    what are you barking about? he called many things, his aides call for a total cleansing of Russian speakers. The jails are filled with hundreds of opposition members. To cut it short, this Yats is on the payroll of Washington, it was proved by not only " fuck the EU" Nuland but also his stance against the chocolate king. Every word he says is word of Washington. So if Russia is in war, it is not with Ukraine but the US and is winning it.
    indoorain -> AlfredHerring, 13 September 2014 12:01pm
    "Neljud" literally means a no-human, but in daily use the meaning is closer when in English word beast is used to characterise a man of problematic values.
    Still very nazi and fascistic from a high rank politician to label "Neljudi" a whole population - nation, and yes his own.
    DeConstruct -> Doom Sternz, 13 September 2014 12:42pm
    Why quote this individual ?
    His 'government' is openly mortaring and shelling Ukrainian civilans in the disputed eastern cities, and there are plenty of Youtube videos with date/place evidence showing women and kids having been blown up while shopping, etc, and he is also employing imported Euro-Nazi's as troops, eg., look up "Azov Battalion".
    Sarah7591Wilson -> AlfredHerring, 14 September 2014 4:18am
    The word is the same in several Slavic languages -- like most of Ukrainian vocabulary, it comes straight from Russian (linguistically speaking Ukrainian is a dialect of Russian although Ukrainian uber-nationalists can't bear the truth).
    RussianNationalist -> Konstantin Blyuss, 14 September 2014 10:52am
    Nelydi can also be translated as non-human, non-people, animals in other words. So lets start with that, as you bloody well know that is exactly what was meant, right after the crowd shouts: Russians on the knife! On the Knife! On the Knfe!....your Banderistan favorite saying as
    Doom Sternz, 13 September 2014 8:52am
    Here is the truth of Ukraine......

    US in Ukraine funded right wing fascist organisations in Kiev to overthrow the freely elected government. It was a violent, armed coup spearheaded by militants of the right sector that placed Yatsenyuk into power. The Right Sector is a fascist neo Nazi right wing organisation and this is where the US $5 billion went to, to fuel the revolution and to force a regime change in Ukraine as Victoria Nuland put it.

    childofmine, 13 September 2014 9:05am
    Yatseniuk, the former 'prime minister' was not elected by anyone. He was in on the Washington inspired and paid for conspiracy to topple the elected government from the very beginning. He is personally responsible for thousands of deaths, many more maimed and much destruction. His words are, as they have always been, from the lunatic neocon script. We in Europe, need some political will to dismiss the mad US plans for what they are.
    GoodmansParadox -> AlfredHerring, 13 September 2014 10:08am
    The intercepted phone communication in which Victoria Nuland expresses the procedure for the promotion of "Yats" once Yanukovych is toppled indicate that, contrary to your assertion, this was very much a conspiracy.

    The Rada has had representatives barred by the coup leaders who control it, and when you refer to what is allowed by their parliamentary system, you should be aware of the criteria required to impeach a President. It requires a certain percentage threshold to be reached. As that threshold was not rreachhed, the impeachment of Yanukovych failed and all subsequent actions by the Rada, including the election of PPoroshenko, are constitutionally invalid and those undertaking them treasonoous.

    The corrupt bastards have not been thrown out; they are still running the show, only now these corrupt bastards are engaged in ethnic cleansing of eastern Ukraine. And it appears you support these self-identified neo-Nazis.

    edwardrice -> AlfredHerring, 13 September 2014 10:22am

    There was no conspiracy, they were quite vocal about throwing the corrupt bastards out and since that is allowed in a parliamentary system again not a conspiracy.

    Not according to Ukraine's constitution.

    And the "corrupt bastards " have been thrown out?

    MurkyFogsFutureLogs -> AlfredHerring, 13 September 2014 11:18am
    If the Ukrainian coup was to overthrow the corrupt, why have they only replaced one party of corrupt officials for another?
    politicaltoo -> childofmine, 13 September 2014 9:21pm
    Likewise Porosheko, the US insider
    davidpear -> someoneionceknew, 13 September 2014 12:43pm
    It is coming from there New East "partnership" with George Soros.
    Lampang -> someoneionceknew, 13 September 2014 2:09pm
    Quite. I'm not sure quite why The Guardian feels it necessary to repeat every single lie which comes out Kiev but this website is now wholly untrustworthy. Perhaps things will improve and this newspaper will remember what journalism is but until that happy day arrives, I'll be getting my news from organizations which have not taken it upon themselves to act as the press agents for a collection of neo-Nazi thugs.
    ploughmanlunch, 13 September 2014 9:26am
    The Kiev regime, conceived, born, and sponsored by Western backers, launched a brutal military assault on that part of Ukraine which would have preferred to have waited 9 months, in order to allow democratic elections to be held that would legitimately determine who should have power in Ukraine.

    For defending themselves from this attack, the anti-Kiev militias are branded 'terrorists'.
    Foremost amongst those spouting vitriolic bile is Yats.

    He considers Russians and those opposing Kiev's tyranny 'sub human'.

    He was the first choice of neo-con America to impose their will on Ukraine and to attempt to de-stabilise Russia.

    [Sep 12, 2014] Malaysia Airlines flight MH17: 'most likely' it was shot down from ground

    From comments: "What's possibly most shocking about this is the reiteration of discredited information - the supposed 'confession' of a rebel (taken massively out of context and heavily denied by the speaker) and the ludicrous fake audio of the rebel conversation which turned out to have been uploaded the day before the crash, then taken down again for editing. I wouldn't be surprised by this promulgation of lies if I found it on social media, but this is the Associated Press and I'm reading this in a once respected British newspaper. How in the name of any kind of decency did we come to sink as low as this?
    DrHandley, 12 September 2014 12:12pm
    The Dutch are under orders to ensure that all the data and any media release places blame of the Rebels. We may talk about conspiracy theories - but in this case it smells like a cover up. The explosive residue left of the surface of the aircraft would surely indicate the type of weapon used as most explosives have a set 'signature'.
    ParapolitikosTypos, 12 September 2014 12:08pm
    "A separate Dutch investigation concluded this week that the plane was hit from the outside by numerous high-energy objects, but stopped short of calling it a missile strike."

    ..But dont worry we are going to go ahead and call it a missile strike.

    Done by Ruskies of course.

    Evidence?

    it was shot Down, it was near ruskies, what more do you want.

    psygone, 12 September 2014 12:14pm
    The prosecutors definitely leaning in the right direction.

    The BBC began and The Netherlands Times pick-up the follow report:

    RUSSIAN SOLDIERS SHOT DOWN MH17

    New details in the search for the faces behind the BUK missiles that shot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 over Ukraine point to Russia.

    -- reprinted & broadcasted thousands of times, around the world

    ... ... ...

    LeWillow - > psygone, 12 September 2014 1:07pm
    But you have to ask the question 'why would Putin shoot down a Malaysian passenger plane?

    It make no sense and would be completely stupid, and I don't think Putin is stupid somehow.

    The CIA on the other hand (and US Govt) would have a lot to gain from shooting down a plane and blaming it on Putin. They also have previous form when it comes to blowing planes out of the air.

    Standupwoman, 12 September 2014 12:14pm
    What's possibly most shocking about this is the reiteration of discredited information - the supposed 'confession' of a rebel (taken massively out of context and heavily denied by the speaker) and the ludicrous fake audio of the rebel conversation which turned out to have been uploaded the day before the crash, then taken down again for editing.

    I wouldn't be surprised by this promulgation of lies if I found it on social media, but this is the Associated Press and I'm reading this in a once respected British newspaper. How in the name of any kind of decency did we come to sink as low as this?

    GoodmansParadox , 12 September 2014 12:23pm

    ...he drew comparisons with the investigation into the Lockerbie bombing that took years to identify suspects.

    An interesting analogy, considering the suspects identified were fabricated in order to frame Libya. Considering the case against the two Libyan suspects required they work together, it was even more notable that only one of them was convicted. So a fabricated prosecution was delivered a perverse verdict, yet the media still lapped it up and ran with the lie.

    Funny how, with the toppling of Gaddafi, we were supposed to be provided with the evidence of Libyan involvement. Three years and counting...

    And now, the same cheerleaders for blaming Gaddafi are blaming Putin. Plus ca change.

    Martin Adams, 12 September 2014 12:33pm
    The Lockerbie investigation was subverted for political reasons and the enemy of convenience was then Libya. Abdelbasset al Megrahi who served 8 years in prison had nothing to do with Lockerbie and they know it.
    palindrome, 12 September 2014 12:50pm

    he drew comparisons with the investigation into the Lockerbie bombing that took years to identify suspects.

    Excellent comparison, the Lockerbie investigation is a great example of how investigators dismissed obvious clues as to the true perpetrators and used circumstantial evidence to "prove" that the Bond villains of the day (Libya) were the culprits.

    John Ashton's book lays the evidence for all to see of how everything can manipulated for political gain, and no doubt this tried and tested formula will be used again.

    JCDavis palindrome, 12 September 2014 12:55pm
    Everything coming from the UK and US governments is a lie at one level or another and should be carefully investigated. But of course there is no one to do that as the press is almost totally subverted.
    SaoPaulo, 12 September 2014 12:56pm
    The mere fact that the United States MSM has dropped this topic like a hot potato (compare CNN coverage of MH17 with the endless coverage of MH370) and the complete lack of verified NATO or US or CIA satellite data implies that the Russians were not at fault here.
    Carl Jones, 12 September 2014 1:00pm
    The preliminary report suggests MH17 was hit by multiple impacts. There are pictures on the alternative media that shows a section of the plane near the cockpit that was strafed by machine gun fire after it had been hit by an air to air rocket[s]. The preliminary finding are inconsistent with a ground to air rocket and their is no evidence to this effect.

    Quite simply, this is a cover up.

    michaelantony, 12 September 2014 1:19pm
    This investigation is a colossal waste of time and money and European taxpayers should demand an end to it. We all know what happened to the plane: it was shot down by accident while flying over a war zone where surface to air missiles were in constant use over previous days.

    None of the belligerents had an interest in shooting in down: whoever did it mistook it for a military craft belonging to the enemy.

    To try to find out which group to pin the blame on serves no purpose whatever except to further the warmongering agenda of NATO, which is trying to provoke the 3rd World War with Russia or justify even more crushing sanctions to grind Russia's population into further poverty.

    The real culprits for this horrible accident were Malaysia Airlines for flying over a war zone to save money and the aviation authorities for allowing them to do so. Those are the heads that should roll.

    retarius, 12 September 2014 1:29pm
    Is the BUK filled with ball bearings? A lot of the holes were perfectly round and look like bullet holes.
    Canonman , 12 September 2014 1:31pm
    All of this is just speculation.
    Question 1: where are the Satellite images of that area at that exact time?
    Question 2: where are the audio transmissions between the crew and the flight towers?
    Question 3: why did the BBC remove its own segment that was done shortly afterwards where they had people on record stating that they had seen a jet flying behind if?
    Question 4: who ordered the BBC remove its own segment?
    Question 5: If the pilots where shot at by a 'jet' as is believed by many - what about the autopsies of the pilots? Were any done? What did they find.
    Question 6: if a BUK missile had taken it down how come there was not a trail from the missile? These missiles do leave a rather distinctive trial behind them that is seen for kilometers.
    Question 7: who ordered the plane to fly lower than was deemed safe for that area?
    So many questions and so little facts… Perhaps they questions do not fit the narrative?
    umut gezer , 12 September 2014 2:00pm
    there has not been international investigation, but by the Dutch with the help of Kiev. And the result is " the plane was shot down". Kiev regime did everything to stop investigators to reach the area, and still keeping Malaysian experts in Kiev.

    [Sep 11, 2014] Despair in Luhansk as residents count the dead Shaun Walker in Luhansk

    The second article in completely new style from "born again" Shaun Walker. From comments: "Graham already explained that all other western journalists sat together in bars of hotels, afraid to go outside and wrote what they have been told to write." and " This has been going on for months Mr Walker, and you telling us as if you never heard of it. When people crying out the crimes committed by Kiev, your friends either call them putinbots or chopped their comments. The UN knows nothing, nor does OSCE. the death toll is much more than official figure. The indiscriminate bombing of civilians was cried out by a former Ukrainian general Vladimir Ruban who is securing Kiev soldiers' release." Is this a new "shift the blame, restore credibility" propaganda operation ?
    The Guardian

    In the suburb of Yubileynoe, 90 residential apartment blocks suffered some kind of damage in recent months, while 16 took direct hits. It is unclear who will pay for the huge structural repair work required. The residents certainly cannot afford it, the local rebel government has not offered, and Kiev has no control over the territory. Their best hope for now appears to be a volunteer group using equipment from the local coal mine.

    "The aim of the Ukrainian army was to destroy everything, so that people would be on their knees and beg to be allowed to return to the fascist Ukrainian state," says 47-year-old Vyacheslav Pleskach, a rights activist who is now volunteering to help those whose houses were damaged in Yubileynoe. "There was nothing of military value here at all, nothing. They were just shelling the most vulnerable people, day and night."

    ... ... ...

    Amid the passions, rumors and disinformation, understanding who shot where and when is extremely difficult. But there seems little doubt that both sides are responsible for civilian casualties, and by firing on civilian areas, Ukrainian forces have made any eventual process of reintegration even harder, as anger grows.

    In the suburb of Bolshaya Verkhunka, the devastation is absolute. After a battle in early August, the Ukrainian National Guard took up a position on one side of the suburb; the rebels were on the other. Each side relentlessly attacked the other, over the heads of the residents. Almost every house on the main street is destroyed.

    ... ... ...

    "We don't care what country we live in. We just want them to stop killing us," says their 58-year-old neighbour Lyubov Zheleznyak, a widow. Her house was relatively unscathed, but is still riddled with bullets and all her windows are blown out. Pensions have not been paid for months; she has no money for food, let alone repair works.

    Further down the road, Vitaly and Marina Yushko, a brother and sister both in their early 30s, were hiding from the shelling in their cellar in early August when the house took a direct hit. Rubble fell over the entrance to the cellar, jamming it shut, while flames engulfed the remains of the house. Unable to escape, the pair burned to death.

    It was not possible to move the bodies because of the constant fire, so the neighbours buried the charred remains of Vitaly and Marina in a shallow grave in their back garden. Nobody informed the authorities, as there was no way to make contact with them, a sign that the real death toll could be much higher than the numbers given at the morgue.

    ... ... ...

    In Luhansk, emotions are never far beneath the surface. A teacher begins sobbing at the question of whether the region should stay part of Ukraine or separate; another cannot bear to talk about one of her students, whose parents drove over a mine in their car. His mother died instantly; the child's legs were blown off and he later died in hospital.

    In a scruffy field not far from the morgue, there are mounds of freshly dug black earth, dozens of simple wooden crosses with plyboard signs; names and dates of birth scrawled in black marker. Protective gloves and masks, worn by the gravediggers, are discarded in the grass. The lonely silence is broken periodically by low booms from the airport; rebels exploding ordnance left behind by the Ukrainian army when they fled.

    There are men, women, pensioners, children. Many simply have "unknown" and a number; some day perhaps relatives will recognise a body on Turevich's list and match it with the number on the grave. A huge, open trench is partially filled with coffins; a dozen of them arranged in a neat line. There is space for many more.

    palindrome, 11 September 2014 4:45pm
    If Obama bombs Syria without Assad's agreement then the door is open for Russia to do the same in Ukraine and eliminate Poroshenko's murderous regime and his Neo-Nazi helpers.
    GoddessOFblah palindrome, 11 September 2014 4:52pm
    If Obama bombs Syria without Assad's agreement then the door is open for Russia to do the same in Ukraine and eliminate Poroshenko's murderous regime and his Neo-Nazi helpers.

    Obama isn't as bad as Bush. But after funding the mujihadeen in Afghanistan (that turned into Al Qaida) you'd think the US would know better than to arm and train "moderate" Syrian Rebels (many of whom switched to ISIS).

    Although perhaps that's the intention of the MIC. Constant war - war is peace.

    The Middle East is a mess and now they're doing the same to Europe. We really should be focusing on bolstering the Eurozone and doing something about the refugee problem from Africa as I dread to think what might happen with European extremists increasing as the situation just gets even more dire by the day. I recently was in Greece and it is shocking what it has turned into. It is also tragic

    GoddessOFblah, 11 September 2014 4:46pm
    RIP to the victims.

    These silly war games are played for profit - whether that reason is for Corporate profits such as Monsanto, or Ukrainian companies such as Burisma Holdings (Joe Biden's son, Hunter, joined the board), or for geo-political reasons.

    It is ultimately the people who suffer. From the Middle East, to Asia to South America and now Eastern Europe - we witness these war games and as always it is the innocents who suffer.

    Standupwoman, 11 September 2014 4:46pm
    Appalling tragedy, almost impossible to conceive in modern Europe. I'll never understand how any government could have thought it a good solution to shell its own cities and kill its own people.
    GoddessOFblah Standupwoman, 11 September 2014 4:58pm
    Appalling tragedy, almost impossible to conceive in modern Europe. I'll never understand how any government could have thought it a good solution to shell its own cities and kill its own people.

    Exactly. When Assad did it against terrorists in Syria he was accused of being a war criminal. But the Ukraine gov't gets away with it.

    I feel sorry for the East Ukrainians - being hated for speaking Russian. Tragic.

    And I feel sorry for the Ukrainians in the West. They think they'll join the EU and like Poland receive billions n aid from Western Europe, visa-free travel and all sorts of treats. The reality is IMF austerity and no heating during winter. Totally tragic.

    Beckow, 11 September 2014 4:53pm
    This is what US, Nato, UK and western media has been cheering on: a brutal attack by Kiev government on its Russian-speaking population. Bombing them, killing them, expelling them. And calling them "terrorists". Obama liked it. Cameron cheered it on. Merkel was quietly content. After all they were just Russian-speakers, who cares, right?

    Are you proud of yourself? Are you coming to preach to us about "human rights" any time soon? The Western "values"?

    anarxist Beckow, 11 September 2014 5:08pm
    they don't care, they just want money, with money comes power... the rest does not matter.
    politicaltoo, 11 September 2014 4:56pm
    Would that the bastards who play geopolitical chess would heed the counsel of the wise and resist the cries of the ambitious.

    Providence save us from the insanity of neocon imperialism.
    Be afarid Moldovans and Armenians.
    You are next on the list.

    juliadulchitiz, 11 September 2014 5:01pm
    He's probably just arrived to Ukraine. All he has to say is what we know already.
    Now let's get to the real news:
    European Council President Herman Van Rompuy confirmed on Thursday that the European Union will bring a new round of sanctions against Russia on September 12.
    EC President confirms new sanctions on Russia
    "The new EU sanctions on Russia will take effect on Friday, September 12, 2014," he said. "In the light of the review and if the situation on the ground so warrants, the Commission and the EEAS /EU diplomatic service/ are invited to put forward proposals to amend, suspend or repeal the set of sanctions in force, in all or in part," he added

    So, the sanctions may not happen at all. The EC is basically giving Russia a chance to do or don't do whatever it is they want Russia to do or don't do.
    Now, Russia Gazprom is considering the possibility of limiting or stopping the supplies of natural gas via Ukraine to Europe. This means, the US dream of standing in Ukraine as the middleman between Russia and Europe will blow up.
    The hawks at the EC are fuming at the thought.

    GoodmansParadox, 11 September 2014 5:02pm
    Such a shame that the Guardian has been pouring scorn on all these reports of the indiscriminate shelling of Luhansk by Kiev forces these last few months. Like the denial of the fascist nature of the perpetrators of the assaults on Donbas, the dismissal of the myriad accounts of Kiev war crimes has illustrrated just how far the Guardian has ttravelled along the road to propaganda organ.

    As should the readers' editor who accused opponents of the coup in Kiev of being Kremlin stooges, the editor in charge of this constant stream of anti-separatist bias should apologise.

    Anette Mor GoodmansParadox , 11 September 2014 5:08pm
    At some point it does not matter who is at fault. Because the only way to peace is to stop fighting, reconcile and move to a better tomorrow together.
    Robert Sandlin Anette Mor , 11 September 2014 5:34pm
    I doubt any "together".Maybe the Bible talks of the Lion and the Lamb laying together.But I don't think the neo-nazi junta and their victims will reconcile and be together.
    thehumanrace2014, 11 September 2014 5:05pm
    I hope the US government shows remorse to those innocent lives for funding this slaughter in the first place
    TauTona, 11 September 2014 5:06pm
    This story was originally reported by https://twitter.com/GrahamWP_UK/ who has actually been on the ground in Lugansk for some weeks, whereas Shaun Walker now appears to have arrived on the scene five or so months after the Ukrainian government's ethnic cleansing operation began, having been "reporting" from his armchair up until now.

    The responsibility for the deaths of the women, children, elderly and other non-combatant people in Lugansk rests, needless to say, with those who executed them in cold blood: the Ukrainian goverment forces and miscellaneous goons under Pinocchio Poroshenko and his cabal.

    More Shaun Walker plagiarism and spin, anyone?

    anarxist TauTona, 11 September 2014 5:10pm
    Graham already explained that all other western journalists sat together in bars of hotels, afraid to go outside and wrote what they have been told to write.
    RUGATOR, 11 September 2014 5:07pm
    Semblance of normality? With a sea of caskets littering downtown Lugansk?

    People from the Kiev junta should be hauled off to Hague International Court in cattle train wagons and get their heads ripped out in public there.

    diogenesinope, 11 September 2014 5:08pm

    "The aim of the Ukrainian army was to destroy everything, so that people would be on their knees and beg to be allowed to return to the fascist Ukrainian state," says 47-year-old Vyacheslav Pleskach, a rights activist who is now volunteering to help those whose houses were damaged in Yubileynoe. "There was nothing of military value here at all, nothing. They were just shelling the most vulnerable people, day and night."

    One of the times I'm ashamed to be an American. Ashamed of my country's government for backing this murderous regime, even the fact the US played a part in the destablization of Ukraine leading to the overthrow of the government, then installing a leader who I say is guilty of war crimes.

    Shame on Europe, shame on Kiev, shame on the US government. For shame. Anyone proud of this idiotic war on basically a civilian population needs serious help. I'm ashamed of it. Try to be objective: it is never moral to shell a civilian area. That is for cheap cowardly bullies. So here's Poroshenko rolling in heavy artillery, howitzers, GRADS, tanks, you name it. And so proud of it.

    He's even coming to America to give an address to joint members of Congress. For shame. Political power really does corrupt morals and judgment. Maybe one day society will get past it. But not yet. Thankfully Cameron is not planning to attack Scotland in the same manner Poroshenko has brutally attacked and destroyed cities and much of rural Eastern Ukraine. What a bully.

    MacCosham , 11 September 2014 5:12pm
    A city is besieged and subjected to daily bombardment for two months. And yet the Guardian still manages to also blame the besieged for allegedly "bombing their own city". Despicable.
    sodtheproles MacCosham , 11 September 2014 5:31pm
    And again without proof, but what the hell, some of us have reputations to protect...
    EUinmate5571, 11 September 2014 5:14pm
    Innocent civilians slaughtered and regarded as mere collateral damage by the forces of fascism, war crimes committed in modern Europe, a legacy that will forever tarnish the western expansionists who instead of engaging in diplomacy, unleashed the war mongers and called them freedom fighters.
    LeDingue, 11 September 2014 5:37pm
    Poroshenko, Parubiy (controller of the National Guard until his

    ous resignation), Yats and the leaders of the oligarch militias really should be indicted to the Hague for attacking and laying siege to civilians.

    If there had been a standoff and negotiations at the outset none of this military attack on civilians and infrastructure would have happened.
    Besides the death, mutilation and psychological terror there are also the hundreds of thousands of dispersed refugees.

    Unfortunately instead of indictment, or even any public criticsm of Kiev's barbaric acions, the opposite is more likely: Poroshenko & co will be rewarded by their American masters who are no doubt very satisfied with the results.
    Despite the effect of Russian assistance to the rebels being to drive Parubiy's National Guard into retreat, thus ending the civilian carnage, it is precisely the Russian involvement that the US wanted to provoke to be used as political leverage to back their longed-for economic war on Russia and its trade with the EU.

    This death and terror was deliberately stoked for American corporate benefit.

    ploughmanlunch, 11 September 2014 5:39pm
    Poroshenko, backed to the hilt by the West, had hoped that his brutal and indiscriminate bombardment of Eastern cities including civilian areas might achieve outright victory against the anti-Kiev militias.

    That hasn't happened, and only now does the Western Press give serious consideration to the devastation and suffering that Kiev's actions have brought about. The Kiev regime and it's Western backers knew what they were doing. They were well aware of the horrors that they were about to visit on the Eastern Ukrainian cities, but considered it worth pursuing, after all, nobody was going to stand up for Russian speaking areas were they ?

    And they were right.

    LeDingue ploughmanlunch , 11 September 2014 6:09pm
    If creating political pressure for anti-Russian sanctions (and economic war) was the objective then inciting or provoking Russian involvement was necessary.

    Poroshenko followed Washington's orders and sent the army and Parubiy's National Guard to attack civilians. The more barbaric the more likely that Russia would provide assistance to the anti-Kiev federalists and thus propaganda material dutifully disseminated by our cowed media.

    Look how the EU politicians are so silent about Kiev's actions! It's almost as if the US had some (nsa dirt) hold over them.... even as they agree to anti-Russian sanctions that will cost the EU billions and the Americans nothing... ten years of total surveillance of all EU politicians can provide that kind of "persuasion".

    firedzin, 11 September 2014 5:40pm
    It feels like everyone is involved in the discussion of the civil war in Ukraine. Yet little consideration is given to the fact that the military intervention in the region and labelling rebels as terrorists were suicidal decisions on the part of Ukrainian government from the onset. Even if the territories were regained the country would remain broken for good.
    juliadulchitiz firedzin, 11 September 2014 5:52pm

    You are overlooking the role of the US in this. Yats is US' man, no decision is reached in Ukraine without America's approval.
    So much for Russia's interference. Ukraine is a offshore state of Amιrica.
    ChristopherMyers, 11 September 2014 5:48pm
    I am American, and live in America, and I have been against this from the beginning. I can't and won't apologize for my government, what they have created here in Ukraine is a crime, all just to cause Russia as much pain as they can and gain access to the resources and strategic placement, of a country that was already struggling at the time, and because their government was aligning with Russia, which would have been a more advantageous move in the long run for the people. There is no way the deaths of these innocent people can be justified in anyone's book, for any reason. Not all Americans are to blame for this, only our government and the corporations eager for profits are to blame.
    edwardrice , 11 September 2014 5:51pm

    the National Guard fled the area, part of a broad and bloody Ukrainian retreat Kiev says was spurred by the rebels gaining an injection of Russian firepower.

    Is there any evidence yet of this ''Russian firepower''?

    vr13vr edwardrice, 11 September 2014 5:57pm
    We are still looking for it. But since "Russia has withrdrawn its troops," (darn, they move fast, those Russians) we'll probably never see any evidence.
    ositonegro catfitz , 11 September 2014 6:09pm
    WHY IT'S NOT ABOUT PUTIN

    Answer to a question from a friend - "I imagine you think Putin is a bully. Or maybe it is more complex than that?"


    Well, it is more complex. I have little respect for Putin but I find it more important to look at the world issues and the geo-political strategies involved, which root back in history two centuries almost. You can go back to the Crimean War of the 1850's: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War

    Basically, the Western Powers wanted (and still want) to limit the expansive power of Russia, seen as a major competitor. This was played out 160 years ago in that war when Britain, aligned with the Ottoman Empire, stalked Russia into a territorial war of massive proportions. In particular they want(ed) to limit Russia's naval reach by denying it the only warm-water port it had in Crimea. Crimea was a nation state set up by the Tartars, descendants of Genghis Khan which had plundered Russia for centuries, enslaving peasants and selling them to the Ottomans. Particularly, Crimea's Jewish population were governing the trade but the tartars were the military force that conducted the raids into Russia. Anyhow, the tartars were used in a war to try to break up great Russia and deny the Slavs a center.

    This is almost the same today except that the US' role adds a new dimension. Russia has great influence in Syria, Lebanon and Iran, Shi-ite nations set against US Sunni allies. Since 2006 the US has been trying to create a Sunni-belt to counter Iran, and Russia has been the bear in the ointment for them. Last year the Saudi regime threatened Putin with terrorist attacks on the Winter Olympics if he didn't stop supporting Assad in Syria. Putin, to his credit, stood firm. The Saudis are major US allies, though they behead more civilians than ISIL and are dead-set against 'democracy' and human rights. But, they have MONEY and OIL, right??

    So, what they used to call 'the great game' (West against Russia) is now being played out on an international scale. Ukraine fits into that context. The US and EU funded an opposition, which was not so big, and organized the Maiden demonstrations, even sending in top diplomats and politicians to the Maiden Square to give political support. Those protests were against the then government which would not accept simply appalling terms for EU membership. The protests became led by ultra-right and Nazi organisations who finally launched a coup against the presidency. One of the first measures of the new government was to ban the Russian language, used for official business in Eastern Ukraine and the major tongue there. In response the Russian speakers in Crimea were first to rebel, being the vast majority there. Then they voted foe independence and to be part of Russia (which had been the case until the 1970's).

    Crimea was still a great Russian naval base and of crucial strategic importance to Russia. Under the terms of the EU agreement Russia would have had to forfeit that base. It was the EU and NATO countries which upped the stakes and caused this whole mess. Now they are up to their necks in it, promising to rebuild Ukraine's military, which is now in the hands of the ultra-right. And they are preparing to surround Russia with permanent NATO bases with the aid in particular of the Baltic states. The end-game is to create an uncontrollable situation in Russia itself along with centrifugal regional forces which will break up Russia and allow its vast natural resources to be plundered by those same Western interests.

    That's why, in the end, it's not about Putin at all.

    EugeneGur catfitz , 11 September 2014 6:44pm
    Again the same attempt to shift the blame. Omnipotent Putin "forced" the Ukrainian army to fire at civilians. Yes, Donbass people occupied administrative buildings, but so did Maidan. Donbass only responded to the Kiev coup, and initially the protest was not violent at all. The Ukrainian army started the war by firing at and killing unarmed people at the checkpoint in Slavyansk and Andreevka. The army did not have to do it, and Putin had absolutely nothing to do with it.

    This is an excuse frequently used by German SS on occupied territories in Russia, Ukraine, and Bolorussia. They claimed if it hadn't been for partisans that resisted German occupation, they wouldn't have had to kill local residents in the the reprisals.

    SHappens, 11 September 2014 6:22pm
    A very moving article. It is tragic.

    Ethnic Russians Ukrainian are being shelled by their own government. Civilians are targeted on purpose. It must be exposed. All they wanted was to break free from an Ukraine which was not representing them anymore.

    The second aid convoy for them is now stationed in the southern Russian city of Donetsk, awaiting for Kiev's ok.

    TauTona psygone, 11 September 2014 6:59pm
    This is more of the same, weak, one-sided, biased drivel from one of the most repetitive and tedious propaganda-exponents on CiF.

    Is there a similar explanation for Iraq, Libya, Syria, Gaza, Afghanistan and the other similarly war-torn areas around the world in which US/EU/NATO foreign policy has played a significant role?

    Back to reality, please find to follow a recent analysis from the US Assistant Secretary of the Treasury under the Reagan Administration, regarding the situation in Ukraine:

    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/09/09/ukraine-crisis-remains-unresolved-paul-craig-roberts/

    umut gezer , 11 September 2014 6:54pm
    This has been going on for months Mr Walker, and you telling us as if you never heard of it. When people crying out the crimes committed by Kiev, your friends either call them putinbots or chopped their comments. The UN knows nothing, nor does OSCE. the death toll is much more than official figure.

    The indiscriminate bombing of civilians was cried out by a former Ukrainian general Vladimir Ruban who is securing Kiev soldiers' release.

    Marqus umut gezer , 11 September 2014 7:10pm
    Many people just don't want to see or to hear the truth.
    Sometimes it hurts...

    [Sep 11, 2014] Azov fighters are Ukraine's greatest weapon and may be its greatest threat by Shaun Walker in Mariupol

    Guardian brass decided to "cover exposed backsides" after all their shilling for the junta bit into their already poor credibility. It's a standard operating procedure for Western MSM.
    10 September 2014 | The Guardian | Jump to comments (974)

    The battalion's far-right volunteers' desire to 'bring the fight to Kiev' is a danger to post-conflict stability

    "I have nothing against Russian nationalists, or a great Russia," said Dmitry, as we sped through the dark Mariupol night in a pickup truck, a machine gunner positioned in the back. "But Putin's not even a Russian. Putin's a Jew."

    Dmitry – which he said is not his real name – is a native of east Ukraine and a member of the Azov battalion, a volunteer grouping that has been doing much of the frontline fighting in Ukraine's war with pro-Russia separatists. The Azov, one of many volunteer brigades to fight alongside the Ukrainian army in the east of the country, has developed a reputation for fearlessness in battle.

    But there is an increasing worry that while the Azov and other volunteer battalions might be Ukraine's most potent and reliable force on the battlefield against the separatists, they also pose the most serious threat to the Ukrainian government, and perhaps even the state, when the conflict in the east is over. The Azov causes particular concern due to the far right, even neo-Nazi, leanings of many of its members.

    Dmitry claimed not to be a Nazi, but waxed lyrical about Adolf Hitler as a military leader, and believes the Holocaust never happened. Not everyone in the Azov battalion thinks like Dmitry, but after speaking with dozens of its fighters and embedding on several missions during the past week in and around the strategic port city of Mariupol, the Guardian found many of them to have disturbing political views, and almost all to be intent on "bringing the fight to Kiev" when the war in the east is over.

    The battalion's symbol is reminiscent of the Nazi Wolfsangel, though the battalion claims it is in fact meant to be the letters N and I crossed over each other, standing for "national idea". Many of its members have links with neo-Nazi groups, and even those who laughed off the idea that they are neo-Nazis did not give the most convincing denials.

    "Of course not, it's all made up, there are just a lot of people who are interested in Nordic mythology," said one fighter when asked if there were neo-Nazis in the battalion. When asked what his own political views were, however, he said "national socialist". As for the swastika tattoos on at least one man seen at the Azov base, "the swastika has nothing to do with the Nazis, it was an ancient sun symbol," he claimed.

    The battalion has drawn far-right volunteers from abroad, such as Mikael Skillt, a 37-year-old Swede, trained as a sniper in the Swedish army, who described himself as an "ethnic nationalist" and fights on the front line with the battalion.

    Despite the presence of these elements, Russian propaganda that claims Kiev's "fascist junta" wants to cleanse east Ukraine of Russian speakers is overblown. The Azov are a minority among the Ukrainian forces, and even they, however unpleasant their views may be, are not anti-Russian; in fact the lingua franca of the battalion is Russian, and most have Russian as their first language.

    Indeed, much of what Azov members say about race and nationalism is strikingly similar to the views of the more radical Russian nationalists fighting with the separatist side. The battalion even has a Russian volunteer, a 30-year-old from St Petersburg who refused to give his name. He said he views many of the Russian rebel commanders positively, especially Igor Strelkov, a former FSB officer who has a passion for military re-enactments and appears to see himself as a tsarist officer. He "wants to resurrect a great Russia, said the volunteer; but Strelkov is "only a pawn in Putin's game," he said, and he hoped that Russia would some time have a "nationalist, violent Maidan" of its own.

    On one afternoon earlier this week the Guardian travelled with a group of Azov fighters to hand over several boxes of bullets to Ukrainian border guards. During an artillery attack outside Mariupol in the days before, the border guards had come to the rescue of a group of Azov fighters, and the bullets were their way of saying thank you. "Everything in this war is based on personal links; Kiev does nothing," explained the Azov's Russian volunteer, as we sped towards a checkpoint in a civilian Chevrolet; the boot full with the boxes of bullets and rocket-propelled grenade launchers; one of the windows shot out by gunfire during a recent battle.

    "This is how it works. You go to some hot spot, they see you're really brave, you exchange phone numbers, and next time you can call in a favour. If you need an artillery strike you can call a general and it will take three hours and you'll be dead. Or you can call the captain or major commanding the artillery battalion and they will help you out straight away. We are Azov and they know that if they ever needed it, we would be there for them."

    For the commanders and the generals in Kiev, who many in Azov and other volunteer battalions see as responsible for the awful losses the Ukrainian army has suffered in recent weeks, especially in the ill-fated retreat from Ilovaysk, there was only contempt. "Generals like those in charge of Ilovaysk should be imprisoned for treason," said Skillt. "Heads are going to roll for sure, I think there will be a battle for power."

    The Ukrainian armed forces are "an army of lions led by a sheep", said Dmitry, and there is only so long that dynamic can continue. With so many armed, battle-hardened and angry young men coming back from the front, there is a danger that the rolling of heads could be more than a metaphor. Dmitry said he believes that Ukraine needs "a strong dictator to come to power who could shed plenty of blood but unite the nation in the process".

    Many in the Azov battalion with whom the Guardian spoke shared this view, which is a long way from the drive for European ideals and democracy that drove the protests in Kiev at the beginning. The Russian volunteer fighting with the Azov said he believes Ukraine needs "a junta that will restrict civil rights for a while but help bring order and unite the country". This disciplinarian streak was visible in the battalion. Drinking is strictly forbidden. "One time there was a guy who got drunk, but the commander beat him in his face and legs until he could not move; then he was kicked out," recalled one fighter proudly.

    Other volunteer battalions have also come under the spotlight. This week, Amnesty International called on the Ukrainian government to investigate rights abuses and possible executions by the Aidar, another battalion.

    "The failure to stop abuses and possible war crimes by volunteer battalions risks significantly aggravating tensions in the east of the country and undermining the proclaimed intentions of the new Ukrainian authorities to strengthen and uphold the rule of law more broadly," said Salil Shetty, Amnesty International secretary general, in Kiev.

    Fighters from the battalion told the Guardian last month they expected a "new revolution" in Ukraine that would bring a more decisive military leader to power, in sentiments similar to those of many Azov fighters.

    Despite the desire of many in the Azov to bring violence to Kiev when the war in the east is over, the battalion receives funding and assistance from the governor of Donetsk region, the oligarch Serhiy Taruta. An aide to Taruta, Alex Kovzhun, said the political views of individual members of Azov were not an issue, and denied that the battalion's symbol had Nazi undertones.

    "The views of some of them is their own affair as long as they do not break the law," said Kovzhun in written answers to questions. "And the symbol is not Nazi. Trust me – some of my family died in concentration camps, so I have a well-developed nose for Nazi shit."

    As well as their frontline duties, the Azov battalion also functions as "a kind of police unit", said a platoon commander who goes by the nom de guerre Kirt. A medieval history buff who takes part in Viking battle reenactments and once ran a tour firm in Thailand, Kirt returned to east Ukraine to join the Azov. He took the Guardian on an overnight patrol through the outskirts of Mariupol and the villages around the front line.

    Part separatist hunters, part city cops with no rules to restrain them, they travelled in a convoy of three vehicles, all heavily armed. As midnight approached we set off across the bumpy tarmac roads to the outskirts of Mariupol, and soon came across a parked car by the side of the road that the men found suspicious.

    Fighters dashed from the front two cars and rushed at the vehicle pointing their guns at it. A startled man got out of the passenger seat, then a sheepish looking woman in a cocktail dress and holding a half-smoked cigarette emerged, smoothing her hair. The Azov fighters apologised, but only after demanding documents and thoroughly searching the car.

    As we edged closer to the front line, Kirt and the others scanned the skyline with binoculars, on the lookout for snipers and separatists. Later, fighters sprinted towards a suspicious jeep parked on the beach while the sea was scanned for hostile support vessels, but it turned out that again the men had stumbled upon people just trying to have a good time: a group of women drinking sparkling wine out of plastic cups on the beachfront.

    The Azov have been partially brought into the military and officially function as a special police unit. There are discussions that Azov and other battalions could be integrated into the army or special forces when the conflict is over.

    Some of them, however, are hoping Ukraine will look very different in the not-so-distant future. And while they may be a tiny minority when it comes to Ukraine as a whole, they have a lot of weapons.

    President Petro Poroshenko will be killed in a matter of months, Dmitry said, and a dictator will come to power.

    "What are the police going to do? They could not do anything against the peaceful protesters on Maidan; they are hardly going to withstand armed fighting units."

    MissToto , 10 September 2014 1:47pm
    Maybe the SS will take care of them.
    SamsungGalaxy -> MissToto, 10 September 2014 5:31pm

    The Azov causes particular concern due to the far-right, even neo-Nazi leanings of many of its members.

    So, The Guardian is finally admitting that neo-Nazis are prominent in the Ukrainian government's campaign against the rebels. Better late than never. A month ago, people who spoke about this were ridiculed by columnists and reporters in this newspaper and called Putin propagandists.

    Far-right radicals and even neo-Nazis were also prominent in the armed clashes on the Maidan that resulted in the overthrow of the democratically elected (albeit corrupt) Yanukovych. They did not hide their presense - they flew their neo-Nazi flags, carried their their neo-Nazi banners, wore their neo-Nazi armbands, and chanted their their neo-Nazi slogans openly on the Maidan, but the media chose to pretend that they were not there.

    Pazuzu -> MissToto, 10 September 2014 5:34pm
    Where, oh where are the Femen when we need them?
    AstheticTheory, 10 September 2014 1:51pm
    Neo-Nazism: the real face of American-backed Ukraine.
    PeterBrit 10 September 2014 1:59pm
    Hang on. I seem to remember loads of people below the line warning about the danger of neo-fascists in Ukraine after the Maidan toppling of Yanukovych but at the time the Guardian was fairly relentlessly pro-EuroMaidan and very gung-ho for the revolution. That now seems to be changing sonewhat.
    ID5252799 PeterBrit 10 September 2014 2:00pm
    And you were complaining about bias coverage and yet now you're still complaining. Pot kettle?
    PeterBrit -> ID5252799 10 September 2014 2:11pm
    It's wrong to wonder why the Guardian didn't pay more attention to Ukrainian neo-fascists months ago? Or why it was so enthusiastic about the Libyan rebels originally and has now noticed they're a mixture of Islamists and tribal warlords? Or why it was so keen on the Syrian rebels until Jabat al-Nusra (terrorist jhadis allied to the 'moderate' west-supported rebels) and ISIS became a bit too blatantly unpleasant?
    Maratyunusov 10 September 2014 1:59pm
    Stupidity of Kiev's politicians is giving of "freedom to kill" to every gang of jerks over of all Ukraine. Any of thes bandit groups is under control of local oligarhs like Taruta, Kolomoisky, Baluta .... Now IMF loans are finishing, so not only Ukrainian army nothing to eat, but these gangs are also in needs of drugs and vodka. No surprise if they go to rob Kiev. So NATO will have to send troops to fight Right Wings soldiers in Ukraine and ask Russia for help to get rid of neo-nazies.
    Knitterbird , 10 September 2014 2:00pm

    But there is an increasing worry that while the Azov and other volunteer battalions ...pose the most serious threat to the Ukrainian government, and perhaps even the state, when the conflict in the east is over.

    I can't imagine anyone advocating Ukrainian reliance on groups with such repellent views for the very reason given but some vague idea of numbers would be really helpful in giving some idea of the scale of the threat surely?

    Maybe I'm woefully naive, but if Azov et al make up a tiny fraction of those fighting the seperatists then while it doesn't necessarily negate the threat, surely it makes it may be less serious than if they make up a sizeable proportion?

    LeDingue -> Knitterbird , 10 September 2014 2:38pm
    Several thousand would be the short answer.

    In the run up to the regime change several thousand were recruited from Ultras hooligan groups across Ukraine, they even had a meeting to put their (football club) rivalries aside. People like Dimitry Yarosh were key leaders.
    A group of about 90 leaders, at the time referred to as Pravy Sektor, were given riot and regime change training in Poland. Just after the coup at least two government arsenals were looted, one at the Interior Ministry in Kiev.
    After the regime change many of these recruits were assembled into a new paramilitary force, the "National Guard" under the control of the newly installed Secretary for Security and Defence (left post in August) Andriy Parubiy who was also implicated in the Odessa Massacre.
    Subsequently at least two private militias (maybe more) were established and funded by oligarchs. Dimity Yarosh heads up the "Donbass Battalion" private neo-nazi militia run by (Israeli!) Kolomoisky.

    Scipio1, 10 September 2014 2:01pm
    after speaking with dozens of its fighters and embedding on several missions during the past week in and around the strategic port city of Mariupol, the Guardian found many of them to have disturbing political views,

    So the penny finally drops. Well it's only taken 6 months from what was happening during the putsch in Kiev to reveal the type of political pondlife which has been conducting a racially motivated war against the Don Bass people in the east. It seem though the using the coy N-word (Nazi) is a step too far for the Guran. Let these gentlemen speak for themselves therefore.

    Led by the battalion's leader Biletsky calls for the expansion of Ukraine, the "struggle for the liberation of the entire White Race," and seeks to "punish severely sexual perversions and any interracial contacts'. The Azov men use the symbol that resembles Wolfsangel (Wolf's Hook) symbol on their banner, and some members of the battalion are open white supremacists, or anti-Semites.[15] The battalion commander Biletsky wrote that the historic mission of Ukrainian nation "is to lead the White Races of the world in a final crusade for their survival against the Semite-led Untermenschen." A former member of the battalion also claims that only men with National Socialist views may join.

    But hey, they're on 'our' side so let's waive any objections here. Well their presence convinces me that 'our' side, is the wrong side.

    [Sep 08, 2014] Donetsk's pro-Russia rebels celebrate expelling 'fascist Ukrainian junta' by Shaun Walker in Donetsk

    Let's stop analysis of Guardian lies about Ukrainian crisis at this point. I think for those who read notes below attentively some patterns of propaganda now became more visible. The necessity to compare western coverage with other sources including alternative media also might became more clear. Here is one telling quote: "This description made my jaw drop, with its implication of equivalence between the shelling, phosphorus bombing, grad rocket fire from government forces and unsubstantiated accusations from Kiev that the rebels have engaged in attacks on their own residential areas. "
    Sep 08, 2014 | theguardian.com | Jump to comments (837)

    Ishowerdaily , 08 September 2014 8:14pm

    Jesus, terrorists as far as the eye can see.

    Obviously not the beautiful people you saw at the Maidan so must be baddies.

    seamuspadraig -> Ishowerdaily , 08 September 2014 8:40pm
    You Russian dupe! You Putinbot! Those people in the picture are all 'little green men' disguised as babushkas. Can't you tell? ;-)
    Arapas , 08 September 2014 8:20pm
    We loved Ukraine until they started bombing us, now we can never go back there," said Zinaida, a 58-year-old local. "They are fascists and they have your support. We read that you have Scotland wanting to secede there. Why don't you send your tanks there and destroy them instead of sending them here? We will be part of Russia now and will never go back to those fascists."

    Very wise woman !

    Bosula -> Boomer61, 09 September 2014 1:22am
    More ethnic intolerance.

    Do you think the Canadian military should invade Quebec because these Canadians speak French, learn in French and their local administration operates in French.

    Why do you hate multiculturalism so much?

    Ask the same question about Belgian or Switzerland and their policies on multiculturalism.

    Ukraine needs a national identity that is inclusive, flexible and realistic.

    PekkaRoivanen, 08 September 2014 8:50pm

    Poroshenko, who spoke to a crowd of steel workers in Mariupol

    Finnish state tv showed the following video clip from Ukrainian tv
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJiDict1UdQ

    On the video Poroshenko speaks beside symbol that I believe is a Wolfsangel of Azov Battalion which is said to consist of far right extremists
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

    lids -> PekkaRoivanen, 08 September 2014 8:57pm
    Said to consist? It is a neo-nazi organisation.
    edwardrice -> PekkaRoivanen , 08 September 2014 9:33pm

    Looks exactly like the Neo-Nazi Azov Battalion's logo that Poroshenko is standing under.

    edwardrice -> AlfredHerring , 08 September 2014 9:35pm

    Your fascists are never really fascists

    the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists
    Kiev throws paramilitaries – some openly neo-Nazi - into the front of the battle with rebels

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11025137/Ukraine-crisis-the-neo-Nazi-brigade-fighting-pro-Russian-separatists.html

    popsiq , 08 September 2014 8:39pm
    Zakharchenko and the other are being played for 'suckers' if they think EUkraine means any more for them than a bullet of a camp cot. They are dealing with inveterate liars who can only 'learn' by being thoroughly chastised.

    Hit them very hard where they least expect it, and when they start to run, don't let them stop. Take all the help the Russians will give, you have no friends west of the Donets.

    GoodmansParadox, 08 September 2014 8:40pm

    In Donetsk, which had come under heavy shelling in recent weeks as both the rebels and the government forces fired into residential areas, the rebels see the agreement as a victory,

    This description made my jaw drop, with its implication of equivalence between the shelling, phosphorus bombing, grad rocket fire from government forces and unsubstantiated accusations from Kiev that the rebels have engaged in attacks on their own residential areas.

    Is there no opportunity missed by writers for the Guardian in attempting to mitigate and/or minimise the crimes of the Kiev coup government?

    [Sep 08, 2014] Sidestepping Ukraine's 'N-Word' for Nazi By Robert Parry

    September 6, 2014 | Consortiumnews

    Exclusive: The mainstream U.S. media is hazing German Chancellor Merkel and President Obama for sidestepping the "I-word" – invasion – in reference to Russia and Ukraine. But the MSM goes mute on Ukraine's "N-word" for "Nazi" so as not to disrupt the pro-Kiev "group think," says Robert Parry.

    The New York Times, in its ceaseless anti-Russian bias over the Ukraine crisis, now wants everyone to use the "I-word" – for "invasion" – when describing Russia's interference in Ukraine despite the flimsy supporting evidence for the charge presented by Kiev and NATO.

    The evidence, including commercial satellite photos lacking coordinates, was so unpersuasive that former U.S. intelligence analysts compared the case to the Iraq-WMD deception of last decade. Yet, while ignoring concerns about the quality of the proof, the Times ran a front-page story on Friday mocking Western political leaders, including German Chancellor Angela Merkel and President Barack Obama, for not uttering the "I-word."

    The Times' article by Andrew Higgins essentially baited Merkel and Obama to adopt the most hyperbolic phrasing on the crisis or risk being denounced as weak. The Times couched its criticism of their "circumspect" language – or what it called "terminological fudges" – as a victory for Russian President Vladimir Putin.

    But the Times and other U.S. mainstream news outlets have engaged in their own "terminological fudges" regarding Ukraine's "N-word" – for Nazi – by hiding or burying the fact that the Kiev regime has knowingly deployed neo-Nazi militias to wage bloody street fighting against ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine.

    This grim reality has become one of the most sensitive facts that U.S. State Department propaganda and MSM coverage have sought to keep from the American people who surely would recoil at the notion of siding with modern-day Nazis. Yet, to fully understand the role of these neo-Nazi extremists, Americans would need a translator for the circumlocutions used by the Times and other U.S. news outlets.

    Typically, in the U.S. press, Ukraine's neo-Nazis are called "nationalists," a term with a rather patriotic and positive ring to it. Left out is the fact that these "nationalists" carry Nazi banners and trace their ideological lineage back to Adolf Hitler's Ukrainian auxiliary, the Galician SS, and to Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera, whose paramilitary forces slaughtered thousands upon thousands of Poles and Jews.

    Other MSM references to the Nazis are even more obscure. For instance, the neo-Nazi militias are sometimes called "volunteer" brigades, which makes them sound like the Boy Scouts or the Rotary Club.

    But usually there is just the simple omission of the Nazi "N-word." On Thursday, for instance, the Times published a contentious article critical of Putin's plan for resolving the Ukraine crisis while also noting that the peace talks faced obstacles from elements of both sides: "Moscow does not fully control the separatists; nor is it clear that Kiev can automatically rein in the armed militias it has unleashed alongside its military in the east."

    Filtered out of that sentence was the "N-word." The reason that those "armed militias" might resist peace is because they consist of neo-Nazi ideologues who want a racially pure Ukraine. They are not reasonable people who favor living with ethnically diverse neighbors.

    Ukraine's militias include openly neo-Nazi battalions such as the Azov brigade, which flies a version of the "wolfangel" banner that was favored by the Nazi SS. Azov leaders espouse theories of racial supremacy deeming ethnic Russians to be "Untermenschen" or subhumans.

    Sidestepping the N-word

    But the Times sidesteps the Nazi "N-word" because otherwise readers might start doubting the "white hat/black hat" narrative that the Times has spun since the beginning of the crisis last winter. Usually whenever Ukraine's neo-Nazis are mentioned, it is in the context of the Times dismissing their presence as a myth or as simply "Russian propaganda."

    Other times, the reality is buried so deep in articles that very few readers will get that far. For instance, an Aug. 10 Times article by Andrew E. Kramer mentioned the emerging neo-Nazi paramilitary role in the final three paragraphs of a long story on another topic.

    Given how extraordinary it is that armed Nazi storm troopers are being unleashed on a European population for the first time since World War II, you might have thought that the Times missed the lede. But the placement of this juicy tidbit fit with the newspaper's profoundly unprofessional treatment of the Ukraine crisis throughout.

    You had to get to the third-to-the-last paragraph to learn: "The fighting for Donetsk has taken on a lethal pattern: The regular army bombards separatist positions from afar, followed by chaotic, violent assaults by some of the half-dozen or so paramilitary groups surrounding Donetsk who are willing to plunge into urban combat."

    Then, the next-to-the-last paragraph told you: "Officials in Kiev say the militias and the army coordinate their actions, but the militias, which count about 7,000 fighters, are angry and, at times, uncontrollable. One known as Azov, which took over the village of Marinka, flies a neo-Nazi symbol resembling a Swastika as its flag." [See Consortiumnews.com's "NYT Discovers Ukraine's Neo-Nazis at War."]

    The conservative London Telegraph provided more details about the Azov battalion in an article by correspondent Tom Parfitt, who wrote: "In Marinka, on the western outskirts [of Donetsk], the [Azov] battalion was sent forward ahead of tanks and armoured vehicles of the Ukrainian army's 51st Mechanised Brigade. …

    "But Kiev's use of volunteer paramilitaries to stamp out the Russian-backed Donetsk and Luhansk 'people's republics', proclaimed in eastern Ukraine in March, should send a shiver down Europe's spine. Recently formed battalions such as Donbas, Dnipro and Azov, with several thousand men under their command, are officially under the control of the interior ministry but their financing is murky, their training inadequate and their ideology often alarming. The Azov men use the neo-Nazi Wolfsangel (Wolf's Hook) symbol on their banner and members of the battalion are openly white supremacists, or anti-Semites."

    In interviews, some of the fighters questioned the Holocaust, expressed admiration for Adolf Hitler and acknowledged that they are indeed Nazis, a fact known by Kiev authorities, the Telegraph reported.

    Andriy Biletsky, the Azov commander, "is also head of an extremist Ukrainian group called the Social National Assembly," according to the Telegraph article which quoted a recent commentary by Biletsky as declaring: "The historic mission of our nation in this critical moment is to lead the White Races of the world in a final crusade for their survival. A crusade against the Semite-led Untermenschen." [See Consortiumnews.com's "Ignoring Ukraine's Neo-Nazi Storm Troopers."]

    Russian Claims 'Essentially True'

    Recently at the port city of Mariupol, Foreign Policy's reporter Alec Luhn also encountered the neo-Nazis of the Azov and other Ukrainian government militias. He wrote: "Blue and yellow Ukrainian flags fly over Mariupol's burned-out city administration building and at military checkpoints around the city, but at a sport school near a huge metallurgical plant, another symbol is just as prominent: the wolfsangel ('wolf trap') symbol that was widely used in the Third Reich and has been adopted by neo-Nazi groups. …

    "Pro-Russian forces have said they are fighting against Ukrainian nationalists and 'fascists' in the conflict, and in the case of Azov and other battalions, these claims are essentially true."

    But this inconvenient truth is not something that the U.S. State Department and the mainstream U.S. press want you to know. Instead they have spun a false narrative that blames the entire Ukraine crisis on Russia's President Putin and his diabolical design to reclaim countries to his west for a revival of the Soviet Union.

    The actual reality was that Putin wanted to maintain the status quo in Ukraine by supporting elected President Viktor Yanukovych. It was the West that stirred up trouble in Ukraine with neocon U.S. officials like Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and Sen. John McCain actively supporting a coup – spearheaded by neo-Nazi street fighters – that overthrew Yanukovych on Feb. 22.

    After the coup, in recognition of the crucial role played by the neo-Nazis, they were given several ministries and their militias were later incorporated into the Ukrainian military for the offensive into eastern Ukraine to crush the uprising of ethnic Russians who had supported Yanukovych and favored closer economic ties to Russia. [See Consortiumnews.com's "Ukraine's 'Dr. Strangelove' Reality."]

    But that more nuanced narrative – recognizing the complicated reality of Ukraine's history and politics – would destroy the white hat/black hat storyline favored by the New York Times and the MSM, making the coup regime in Kiev the "good guys" and making Putin and the ethnic Russians the "bad guys."

    To protect that narrative, everyone has to go silent on Ukraine's "N-word."

    Investigative reporter Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories for The Associated Press and Newsweek in the 1980s. You can buy his new book, America's Stolen Narrative, either in print here or as an e-book (from Amazon and barnesandnoble.com). For a limited time, you also can order Robert Parry's trilogy on the Bush Family and its connections to various right-wing operatives for only $34. The trilogy includes America's Stolen Narrative. For details on this offer, click here.

    [Sep 08, 2014] Russian PM warns West against further sanctions

    Russia was successfully pressed to accept humiliating "roadmap" for ceasefire. Which is essentially Poroshenko's old plan for solving Donetsk-Luhansk conflict without giving population of those region any real autonomy. West does hold trump cards in this game being several times more powerful economically. This is understood. But to depict Russia as aggressor in Ukrainian events can only a presstitute. Guardian presstitutes (wait, this is actually Reuters presstitutes) never mention that neoliberal empire wants new markets and that's why they try to bite off Ukraine from Russia economic space and include it into EU economic space. And like narcoaddicts major neoliberal states is hell bent to acquire them via color revolution (essentially bribing part of elite and training dead squads to take on the regime), or by military force as in Iraq. And in this sense Germany is not the different from the USA, only weaker. Not much is being mentioned about who is going to pay out all the billions to rebuild basket case which in Ukrainian economy now -- the economy that lost its largest market. From comments: "It is constantly missed and not commented on about how this all started. Initially the whole Ukraine civil war came about because an elected president decided to reject EU overtones to join their expansion. This was because of favorable energy and investment put forward by Russia. However, the meddling EU financed an uprising which effectively split the Ukraine down ethnic lines. Ethnic Russians in the East immediately declared independence from Kiev - but Kiev with a newly installed puppet regime could not accept independence so gathered forces to attack the ethnic Russia and on their own lands."
    The Guardian
    Terence Parr, 08 September 2014 9:24am
    So here we go again. Sadly I know what this comments page will become full of before the posts start. Comments from people repeating and interpreting the propaganda from both Empires and doing the propagandists job for them for free. This latest spat is nothing new and is just another example of the powerful using the people to fight their battles and protect their positions of power and wealth.
    DrHandley, 08 September 2014 9:34am
    It is constantly missed and not commented on about how this all started. Initially the whole Ukraine civil war came about because an elected president decided to reject EU overtones to join their expansion. This was because of favorable energy and investment put forward by Russia.

    However, the meddling EU financed an uprising which effectively split the Ukraine down ethnic lines. Ethnic Russians in the East immediately declared independence from Kiev - but Kiev with a newly installed puppet regime could not accept independence so gathered forces to attack the ethnic Russia and on their own lands. Even after a referendum the Kiev regime rejected the vote and used paramilitaries from Poland and other countries to attack the Russian speaking civilian.

    The western media however, brainwashed by the EU and USA decided to blame Russia. The only part Russia has played is where ethnic Russian families called on their brothers from straggling Ukraine border towns to fight to protect their land.

    Why do we keep on about Putin when actually this is village by village, town by town and a bullying Kiev regime. We allow Scotland to become independent without attacking them with deadly force - why couldn't the same apply to Ukraine?

    OpiumAddict -> DELewes , 08 September 2014 9:47am
    Putin offered Ukraine as a whole a better deal than being economically raped by the EU and IMF.

    The consequence of the EU deal will be the collapse of Ukrainian industry.

    DELewes -> OpiumAddict, 08 September 2014 10:12am
    No he didn't. He was bribing Yanukovich, and the ostensible beneficiaries of that largesse, the population that gave him the heave ho, knew perfectly well every dime would line his cronies' pockets. That's why the want out from the Russian economic and political model.

    It sucks.

    oalexander -> DELewes, 08 September 2014 10:13am

    ... Putin bribed his boy Yanukovych into reneging on the campaign promise that got him elected.

    Very condescending language. Fact is, the terms of the EU arrangements would have turned out very disadvantageous to Ukraine: austerity and deindustrialization would have led to a complete sellout of infrastructure to western interests and a continuous negative balance of payments. As it is, it will happen anyway now ad Ukraine will not only have a very frosty winter ahead but a guaranteed bleak future. I don't see anybody willing to pick up the multi-billion dollar tab for the country.

    Inside 18 months they will be in their own worse than Greek style disaster - financed with credits by the IMF. Nevertheless, the water supply in the country will be privatised to the usual hedge funds - and whenever somebody flushes the loo a cent goes there. Public health care will be a thing of the past. Etc.

    SHappens, 08 September 2014 8:47am
    The current crisis was planted, fertilized and watered by decades of hard work by the USA, the EU and NATO, who have long ignored repeated warnings from Moscow that its patience is limited.

    Quousque tandem abutere Obama, patientia nostra? quamdiu etiam furor iste tuus nos eludet? quem ad finem sese effrenata iactabit audacia?

    How long, O Catiline, will you abuse our patience? And for how long will that madness of yours mock us? To what end will your unbridled audacity hurl itself?
    ciceron

    MichaelGuess, 08 September 2014 8:52am
    All going well according to the Ashcloud, McCain, Nuland and Kerry plan to help the US corps flog their arms and grab assets.
    Mike Scrafton, 08 September 2014 9:18am
    Russia not only holds a lot of cards in this game of geopolitics it has players that can use them to best effect. The lack imagination and strategic understanding among western policy makers will continue to allow Russia to maintain the political momentum.

    Russia does have a long history in this region and a sense of its role (not unlike the US assumes in the Western hemisphere) and does see its security interests threatened by the expansion of the EU and NATO on its periphery and the deployment of missile defences along its borders.

    The stakes are too high for Russia to be discouraged by sanctions. Good strategic negotiators are required to find a geopolitical accommodation that will endure. Not knee jerk responses.

    Aetrus -> Mike Scrafton, 08 September 2014 10:41am

    Russia not only holds a lot of cards in this game of geopolitics it has players that can use them to best effect. The lack imagination and strategic understanding among western policy makers will continue to allow Russia to maintain the political momentum.

    Perhaps. Certainly Russia has played its cards forcefully. However, sometimes the smart player holds his cards and waits to see how the game unfolds. As I see it:

    Russia has made the following gains: it has acquired three Ukrainian provinces through overt/covert military power and its government has gained immense credibility at home.

    Russia has suffered the following losses: crippled relations with the outside world including exit from the G8 and probably the G20. Sanctions from the EU and USA which will be harder to remove than they were to impose. The remains of the Ukraine will now be perpetually hostile and will move to face west rather than east. The Baltic states have demanded and will get increased NATO spending on their territory.

    Russia might have been better holding its cards rather than playing them...

    Bosula -> Aetrus , 08 September 2014 11:08am

    I think Russia has been forced to play its hand and has done a pretty good job.

    Yes the negatives are as you state, but it has showed that it is a strong albeit not wealthy state and has dented the multipolar view of the world. The strategic and resource plans of the US in this part of the world have received a big setback. The Chinese papers now see Putin and Russia as champions and the Chinese are privately seeing Russia as a strong ally and a means to keep US expansionism and bases in check. This is not such a good outcome for the EU and US with China and the BRICS economic clout growing.

    Antidyatel -> MarcelFromage , 08 September 2014 11:06am
    I disagree with most of your points and recollection of the events. Which propaganda mash are you fed?

    What is exciting is the part

    The president was elected on a pro-EU platform

    Should every president that doesn't follow up on the promisses during the election campaign be ousted after 2 years in office? Personally, I agree with such an approach. Not using coup and false flag attacks. But some consitutional way. For example, Constitutional court compares point by point the promises of the president dusring the compaign and what actually was done in the direction of those points. If he fails to deliver on, let's say 60% of the promise, then new ellections. This way it will also prevent the populists to keep their mouth shut.

    I think it is a good idea.

    PwinceWupert , 08 September 2014 9:36am
    I wonder whose aircraft the Ukrainian Nazi's will then use for target practice if the Russians do close their airspace down?
    wimberlin , 08 September 2014 10:02am
    Well it is pretty obvious that Russia will kick back if you poke a stick at it, so at least this article correctly - and intelligently if I may say - that the EU will pay a big price for having to fall in-line with Washington dictates.

    Not much is being mentioned about who is going to pay out all the trillions of Euro which will be needed to rebuild Poroshenko's basket case. He already wants to spend 3 billion Euro on more shinny weapons for his bogus armed forces - instead of rebuilding the hospitals, schools, apartment buildings, and parks he has helped destroy.

    Thanks Guardian for pointing this all out - you never miss the finer details and nuances of a story.

    Robert Sandlin -> wimberlin, 08 September 2014 10:23am
    I've said before, I love British sarcasm. A beauty too behold.
    Red Ryder, 08 September 2014 10:18am
    The world needs Russia and the continued push by NATO is the root cause of all this trouble. If I were the EU I would be concerned about the upcoming winter. The Russians are a tough people and sanctions will only piss them off, sanctions have never worked except to cause more hostility.
    IanCPurdie -> Red Ryder, 08 September 2014 10:48am

    If I were the EU I would be concerned about the upcoming winter.

    If I were a citizen of the EU, I'd be seriously questioning these NATO maniacs as to why, and where the hell they think they're headed. I would also be very afraid of the likely probable consequences.

    Looking at news footage this evening, to damage to Ukrainian homes, I couldn't help but wonder whether that would eventually creep westwards across Europe yet once again?

    The Russians are a tough people and sanctions will only piss them off, sanctions have never worked except to cause more hostility

    Sanctions, like that stupid expression "staying the course" are the domain of fools without any well thought through policy, except for remembering their "bully boy" tactics from school days.

    Russia and China would be the last two nations I'd provoke into hostility. Both have previously demonstrated long term stamina that Western nations can never hope to match.

    Undoubtedly this is going to end in tears and angst at this rate. For what good reason? So Mr. America can prove to themselves that they can also pee high up the wall.

    Always remember, it is mostly other nations which inevitably pay for American policy errors. Rarely themselves. In this case, EU citizens.

    The question needs to be asked:

    "Are the citizens of EU Nations prepared to put their lives, their homes, their lifestyles. their industries, and their environment at risk solely for American ambitions?"

    I certainly know what my answer would be, given the sure knowledge, the USA does nothing for nothing.

    errovi -> IanCPurdie , 08 September 2014 10:52am
    This is why:

    The Geopolitics of TTIP
    http://www.clingendael.nl/publication/geopolitics-ttip

    oalexander , 08 September 2014 10:30am

    Moscow to show it was resolving the conflict in Ukraine that has killed nearly 3,000 people


    With a civilian death toll exceeding well 1000 plus the victims of the massacres of Odessa and Mariupol almost all caused by Ukraine under the coup government.

    All these humongous civilian death tolls are caused by western intervention, beginning with the half a million killed by the western embargo on Iraq. Recently we had the holie then thou country in the Middle East going on a rampage.

    The USA and its marauding hordes are in fact the scourge of the modern world.

    Robert Sandlin -> oalexander, 08 September 2014 10:45am
    I believe these dead figures we keep hearing are a vast underestimate.

    Meant to hide the extent of killing there from the world. Independent estimates (and the Ukrainian secret figures) place their military losses at easily 10,000 dead alone.

    They were over 8,000 in the middle of August.Before the NAF offensive. They also estimate civilian deaths higher. And the NAF deaths at 2,000 or so. The wounded are estimated at over 32,000.

    jfleetwood , 08 September 2014 10:31am
    It was time that someone stand against world most dangerous terrorist gang called NATO, who is raping oppressing and mugging small and poor countries. Russia is not them and they will fight them. US poodle called EU will get most of economic damage from their offensive on east.
    IanCPurdie -> jfleetwood , 08 September 2014 11:13am

    US poodle called EU will get most of economic damage from their offensive on east

    Perhaps.

    I'm more concerned that the rate this is progressing, Europeans countries might end up suffering much more than just economic damage.

    Horacy, 08 September 2014 11:10am

    allow Moscow to show it was resolving the conflict in Ukraine that has killed nearly 3,000 people and caused the worst confrontation between Russia and the west since the cold war.

    This and then the following quote clearly demonstrate how fragmented and disjoint the current narrative in the MSM has become.

    Shelling resumed near the port of Mariupol on the Sea of Azov on Saturday, just hours after Vladimir Putin and his Ukrainian counterpart, Petro Poroshenko, had agreed in a phone call that the truce was holding.


    It's abundantly clear that whatever Poroshenko and Putin agree on, has to be first approved by Kolomoysky and his Azov battalion on one hand, and the DPR/LPR militias on the other. Hence, the fighting itself is not between Poroshenko/NATO and Russia. It's a civil war between Kiev's oligarch-funded Nazis and the people of Eastern Ukraine defending themselves.

    It is, however, also clear that the fundamental long terms goals in this US-created conflict have not changed, and are exactly the same as before the NATO summit and the Minsk "peace" deal:

    - drive a wedge between Europe and Russia

    - overthrow Putin and replace him with an obedient puppet similar to Yeltsin

    TomRees Horacy, 08 September 2014 11:23am
    >Kiev's oligarch-funded Nazis and the people of Eastern Ukraine

    You mean "Kiev's oligarch-funded Nazis and the Russian armed and equipped ultra-nationalists". And Russia's boots are on the ground in Ukraine as we speak - it was the direct intervention of the Russian army that caused the latest disaster for the Azov battalion.

    Your paranoia about the US is not necessary to explain this conflict, which has been brought upon the Ukraine as Russia and the Russian nationalists in Eastern Ukraine see it as vital to their interests to be part of the Eurasian Union, while most Ukrainians would like to see Ukraine move close to the EU. Russian sees its national security threatened by what the majority of Ukrainians want. Hence the invasion.

    Horacy TomRees, 08 September 2014 11:35am

    the latest disaster for the Azov battalion.

    This is actually quite revealing. You're well informed. The Azov battalion had its share of disasters over the course of the last 6 months. All of those disasters, including the latest, were inflicted on them by the brave people of Donbas, not some mythical Russian invasion.

    A Russian invasion, were it to happen, would've wiped out the battalion and would've very quickly defeated the crumbling Ukrainian regime. The fact that it hasn't happened is a rock-solid proof that there has not been a Russian invasion.

    IanCPurdie TomRees, 08 September 2014 11:42am

    Russian sees its national security threatened by what the majority of Ukrainians want.


    Most likely, however this is a matter in which Russia will never allow the Ukrainians [for better or worse] a voice in.

    A NATO presence in the Ukraine is simply right out of the question. No matter what anybody thinks. Russia has a buffer zone which it will NOT allow to be breeched.

    No more than the USA would tolerate a Russian presence in Canada or Mexico.

    ID5868758 DELewes, 08 September 2014 12:01pm
    You always use those two words, "Putin's folly", as if they accurately describe the situation. They don't, really. "Nuland's folly" much better describes the crisis in Ukraine, a US Department of State operation caught with its hand in the cookie jar, and, also caught in a situation where they geatly underestimated both their opposition, and the opposition of some of the Ukrainian people themselves.

    Not everyone is for sale for those US $100 bills that we see floating around all over Ukraine, hopefully the US taxpayers wise up soon and refuse to support that vile waste of our taxpayer dollars, destabilizing governments and financing violence all over the world.

    MullahsForLunch, 08 September 2014 12:02pm
    I really don't know what the EU/US is trying to achieve with all of this. One has to really question their tactics, all this sanctions bullshit is clearly there to confront and escalate the situation. Don't these fools know that while arm twisting may work with client states, it doesn't work with Russia? They are underestimating Putin. Putin doesn't bend over like slimy Western politicians.

    Why are they risking so much in a delicate time of recession/deflation in Europe, the last thing Europeans need are sanctions over a non-NATO country like Ukraine. What "principles" is the West trying to uphold? Oh yes, supporting "democracy" in countries that don't toe their interests, "selective" democracy? Sovereignty? "Selective" sovereignty you mean? Supporting profitable sovereign movements while opposing unprofitable movements such as Scotland's independence and Eastern Ukraine? They are damn hypocrites, they have no morals nor principles to defend. The West is wrong on this one. Let Putin and Poroshenko battle it out. The Slavs should solve this one, the West should only mediate, not throw more fuel in the fire.

    The West has been on the decline since the 2008 financial crisis that it caused, it is running out of good cards fast, especially on the international arena. Better put the focus on domestic issues where the people need it most, because trying to look as if you are "upholding" democracy abroad while you are losing democracy at home , it seems rather sad.

    Manolo Torres, 08 September 2014 12:08pm
    I hope you are being sarcastic. Otherwise you can tell me which were the humanitarian reasons in Grenada (showing the world that other policies than savage capitalism will not be tolerated), Nicaragua , Chile (idem) Guatemala (stealing land for the natives so a fruit dealer who happened to work also for the CIA could use them), Congo (killing their first elected president because he didn΄t agree with the colonial powers, installing a dictator), Iraq (oil), Afghanistan (catching Obama bin Laden... how many did they kill in the process, where does 80% of the heroin in the world comes from now?). Let΄s start with those.
    wombat123, 08 September 2014 12:36pm
    They are imposing sanctions for brokering a ceasefire? It seems the EU would prefer more bloodshed.
    Robert Looren de Jong wombat123, 08 September 2014 12:46pm
    BERLIN, Sept 8 (Reuters) - A ceasefire agreed between Ukrainian government forces and pro-Russian separatists is not sufficient as other issues including border control and the exchange of prisoners still need to be addressed, a German government spokesman said on Monday.

    "It's not just about this one issue of a ceasefire. There's a long list of things that were agreed to and which need to be implemented, not just the ceasefire," Steffen Seibert said.

    "As much as we all want a ceasefire to be respected by all sides, there are other issues like OSCE monitoring, the exchange of prisoners and hostages, monitoring of borders and the start of a dialogue - there's a lot more than just sticking to the ceasefire."

    ID5868758 wombat123, 08 September 2014 12:46pm
    Look, the US goal is regime change in Russia, period. They will continue to attack Putin, they will continue the economic sanctions no matter what Russia does, because a strong, sovereign Russia is the biggest threat in the world to US domination of resources and trade and assets and everything else that they think belongs to them because of American "exceptionalism".

    All this is white noise when you look at the big picture, America can't compete in this global marketplace honestly, they must use their military arm of NATO and the predatory banksters like the IMF to advance their multinational corporate interests, and Russia as a sovereign nation who saw the handwriting on the wall is in the way. Pretty simple, but the blood of too many innocents is now on the American hands for it to continue forever.

    Debbie Stanley-Ellis ID5868758, 08 September 2014 1:10pm

    because a strong, sovereign Russia is the biggest threat in the world to US domination of resources and trade and assets and everything else that they think belongs to them

    How so? U.S. GDP, trade, heck everything, dwarfs Russia's. Not to mention Russia sold gas and oil to Europe even during the Cold War. Sorry it doesn't fit your tin foil hat theories, but the U.S. feels no economic threat from Russia.
    Davo3333 Debbie Stanley-Ellis, 08 September 2014 1:50pm
    Earlier this year World Bank figures show that the US became the worlds second largest economy and in ten years time it will only be half the size of China's economy while the BRICS will comprise over 50% of the worlds economy. This is what the US is so frightened of and for the next ten years until it is completely swamped by the BRICS the US will be the main threat to world peace. And US gas is no match for Russian gas as it is too expensive.
    daylight101, 08 September 2014 12:45pm
    i really wonder where germany is exactly in this crisis? it seems sometimes that they genuine in their belief that putin is a danger and ready to sacriface their economic interests for this belief. but timing of the events seems deliberately not in their interests, so maybe they are just dumb, disciplined and under the us toe and their beliefs have nothing to do with their views?
    Manolo Torres daylight101, 08 September 2014 12:54pm
    Makes one wonder...What did the NSA found when spying on Merkel? How are the gold negotiations going on, will it stay in the US forever? What is the deal for having more than 40 US military installations in "sovereign" German soil?
    NotWithoutMyMonkey, 08 September 2014 1:01pm
    Michael Hudson on what the US has to gain in the Ukraine and how the IMF is an instrument for achieving these economic and geopolitical aims:

    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/09/michael-hudson-losing-credibility-imfs-new-cold-war-loan-ukraine.html

    ID5868758, , 08 September 2014 1:38pm
    Russia is building the South Stream pipeline to provide cheaper gas for Europe and bypass Ukraine and all the corruption there, the problems that have existed for years. The United States is doing everything in its power to stop that construction, which costs jobs for construction workers, and would deny cheaper gas to the countries involved in the project. This is just one example of the United States not acting in the best interests of the European people, how much bribe money has passed under the table to make these European "leaders" act against the best interets of the citizens they are supposed to be serving?

    Manolo Torres, 08 September 2014 2:07pm
    The plan by neoconservative elements embedded in the Obama administration to seek a Yugoslavia-style breakup of the Russian Federation continues to manifest itself by President Obama's continued commitment to the Captive Nations doctrine first enunciated by Ukrainian right-wing nationalist provocateur Dr. Lev Dobriansky. -

    Dobriansky's daughter, Paula Dobriansky, who served as Under Secretary of State for Democracy and Global Affairs during the entire Bush administration, is now leading her father's crusade against Russia as a senior fellow at the Belfer Center (named after Robert Belfer, the Polish-born founder of the Belco Oil and Gas Company, which later became Enron Corporation) at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University. Paula Dobriansky is now using such outlets as the Voice of America to call for the ending of credits to the Russian government and Russian companies and suspending Russian firms from trading on international bourses. Dobriansky and her friends, including Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria Nuland and United Nations Undersecretary General for Political Affairs Jeffrey Feltman, seek to resurrect Lev Dobriansky's insane plans for dismemberment of Russia. Today, it is not "anti-Communism" which serves as the rallying cry for the neoconservatives but a desire to forestall the creation of a Eurasian Union that would compete with the global banker-run European Union. -


    See more at:
    http://www.intrepidreport.com/archives/13086#sthash.X63Y1flM.dpuf

    [Sep 08, 2014] The Whys Behind the Ukraine Crisis By Robert Parry

    This is a must read for understanding of Guardian and other major Western MSM low level presstitutes behaviour and motives of their handlers...
    September 3, 2014 | consortiumnews.com

    Given the very high stakes of a nuclear confrontation with Russia, some analysts wonder what's the real motive for taking this extraordinary risk over Ukraine. Is it about natural gas, protection of the U.S. dollar's dominance, or an outgrowth of neocon extremism, asks Robert Parry.

    A senior U.S. diplomat told me recently that if Russia were to occupy all of Ukraine and even neighboring Belarus that there would be zero impact on U.S. national interests. The diplomat wasn't advocating that, of course, but was noting the curious reality that Official Washington's current war hysteria over Ukraine doesn't connect to genuine security concerns.

    So why has so much of the Washington Establishment – from prominent government officials to all the major media pundits – devoted so much time this past year to pounding their chests over the need to confront Russia regarding Ukraine? Who is benefiting from this eminently avoidable – yet extremely dangerous – crisis? What's driving the madness?

    Of course, Washington's conventional wisdom is that America only wants "democracy" for the people of Ukraine and that Russian President Vladimir Putin provoked this confrontation as part of an imperialist design to reclaim Russian territory lost during the breakup of the Soviet Union in 1991. But that "group think" doesn't withstand examination. [See Consortiumnews.com's "Who's Telling the Big Lie on Ukraine?"]

    The Ukraine crisis was provoked not by Putin but by a combination of the European Union's reckless move to expand its influence eastward and the machinations of U.S. neoconservatives who were angered by Putin's collaboration with President Barack Obama to tamp down confrontations in Syria and Iran, two neocon targets for "regime change."

    Plus, if "democracy promotion" were the real motive, there were obviously better ways to achieve it. Democratically elected President Viktor Yanukovych pledged on Feb. 21 – in an agreement guaranteed by three European nations – to surrender much of his power and hold early elections so he could be voted out of office if the people wanted.

    However, on Feb. 22, the agreement was brushed aside as neo-Nazi militias stormed presidential buildings and forced Yanukovych and other officials to flee for their lives. Rather than stand behind the Feb. 21 arrangement, the U.S. State Department quickly endorsed the coup regime that emerged as "legitimate" and the mainstream U.S. press dutifully demonized Yanukovych by noting, for instance, that a house being built for him had a pricy sauna.

    The key role of the neo-Nazis, who were given several ministries in recognition of their importance to the putsch, was studiously ignored or immediately forgotten by all the big U.S. news outlets. [See Consortiumnews.com's "Ukraine's 'Dr. Strangelove' Reality."]

    So, it's hard for any rational person to swallow the official line that the U.S. interest in the spiraling catastrophe of Ukraine, now including thousands of ethnic Russians killed by the coup regime's brutal "anti-terrorist operation," was either to stop Putin's imperial designs or to bring "democracy" to the Ukrainians.

    ... ... ...

    The Neocons' 'Samson Option'

    So, while it's reasonable to see multiple motives behind the brinksmanship with Russia over Ukraine, the sheer recklessness of the confrontation has, to me, the feel of an ideology or an "ism," where people are ready to risk it all for some larger vision that is central to their being.

    That is why I have long considered the Ukraine crisis to be an outgrowth of the neoconservative obsession with Israel's interests in the Middle East.

    Not only did key neocons – the likes of Assistant Secretary Nuland and Sen. John McCain – put themselves at the center of the coup plotting last winter but the neocons had an overriding motive: they wanted to destroy the behind-the-scenes collaboration between President Obama and President Putin who had worked together to avert a U.S. bombing campaign against the Syrian government a year ago and then advanced negotiations with Iran over limiting but not eliminating its nuclear program.

    Those Obama-Putin diplomatic initiatives frustrated the desires of Israeli officials and the neocons to engineer "regime change" in those two countries. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu even believed that bombing Iran's nuclear plants was an "existential" necessity.

    Further, there was the possibility that an expansion of the Obama-Putin cooperation could have supplanted Israel's powerful position as a key arbiter of U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East. Thus, the Obama-Putin relationship had to be blown up – and the Ukraine crisis was the perfect explosive for the destruction. [See Consortiumnews.com's "Why Neocons Seek to Destabilize Russia."]

    Though I'm told that Obama now understands how the neocons and other hardliners outmaneuvered him over Ukraine, he has felt compelled to join in Official Washington's endless Putin-bashing, causing a furious Putin to make clear that he cannot be counted on to assist Obama on tricky foreign policy predicaments like Syria and Iran.

    As I wrote last April, "There is a 'little-old-lady-who-swallowed-the-fly' quality to neocon thinking. When one of their schemes goes bad, they simply move to a bigger, more dangerous scheme. If the Palestinians and Lebanon's Hezbollah persist in annoying you and troubling Israel, you target their sponsors with 'regime change' – in Iraq, Syria and Iran. If your 'regime change' in Iraq goes badly, you escalate the subversion of Syria and the bankrupting of Iran.

    "Just when you think you've cornered President Barack Obama into a massive bombing campaign against Syria – with a possible follow-on war against Iran – Putin steps in to give Obama a peaceful path out, getting Syria to surrender its chemical weapons and Iran to agree to constraints on its nuclear program. So, this Obama-Putin collaboration has become your new threat. That means you take aim at Ukraine, knowing its sensitivity to Russia.

    "You support an uprising against elected President Viktor Yanukovych, even though neo-Nazi militias are needed to accomplish the actual coup. You get the U.S. State Department to immediately recognize the coup regime although it disenfranchises many people of eastern and southern Ukraine, where Yanukovych had his political base.

    "When Putin steps in to protect the interests of those ethnic Russian populations and supports the secession of Crimea (endorsed by 96 percent of voters in a hastily called referendum), your target shifts again. Though you've succeeded in your plan to drive a wedge between Obama and Putin, Putin's resistance to your Ukraine plans makes him the next focus of 'regime change.'

    "Your many friends in the mainstream U.S. news media begin to relentlessly demonize Putin with a propaganda barrage that would do a totalitarian state proud. The anti-Putin 'group think' is near total and any accusation – regardless of the absence of facts – is fine."

    Yet, by risking a potential nuclear confrontation with Russia - the equivalent of the old lady swallowing a horse – the neocons have moved beyond what can be described in a children's ditty. It has become more like a global version of Israel's "Samson Option," the readiness to use nuclear weapons in a self-destructive commitment to eliminate your enemies whatever the cost to yourself.

    But what is particularly shocking in this case is how virtually everyone in U.S. officialdom – and across the mainstream media spectrum – has bought into this madness.

    Investigative reporter Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories for The Associated Press and Newsweek in the 1980s. You can buy his new book, America's Stolen Narrative, either in print here or as an e-book (from Amazon and barnesandnoble.com). For a limited time, you also can order Robert Parry's trilogy on the Bush Family and its connections to various right-wing operatives for only $34. The trilogy includes America's Stolen Narrative. For details on this offer, click here.

    [Sep 07, 2014] Ukraine ceasefire under threat amid claims of shelling near crucial port city by Shaun Walker

    Sep 06, 2014 | theguardian.com
    BalerionZinn , 06 September 2014 5:40pm
    Really can't see it lasting. Both sides seem too headstrong to give any space. Someone will eventually have to take a blow to their pride.
    vr13vr BalerionZinn, 06 September 2014 6:46pm
    While both sides indeed seem too headstrong, Kiev does no longer have means to achieve what it wants. So it will have to give in, as long as they find a graceful way out for it. There might still be flair ups, especially around Mariupol, since it is a strategic Russian city that isn't clearly in the hands of the opposition, but the Donetsk and Lugansk are not coming back.
    beentheredonedat Clifton_Mbunge, 07 September 2014 2:11am
    Ceasefire will hold because Russia wants it to hold and will make it hold.

    Here's the Sept/5 Minsk Protocol, published by OSCE - http://www.osce.org/home/123257 - hope you can read Russian a bit by now.

    With its signing Donbass indeed became Russia's proxy region in Ukraine with which to control its NATO and even EU accession. Although many on the ground on both sides will howl blood murder an will want to continue the fighting, Russia's wider political objectives seem to have been met. Ukraine, on the other side, seems to have capitulated.

    beentheredonedat beentheredonedat, 07 September 2014 2:14am
    With translation on Slavyangrad.org - http://slavyangrad.org/2014/09/07/protocol-of-the-tripartite-contact-group-minsk-september-5-2014/
    mauman , 06 September 2014 5:43pm
    "Kiev says the rebels were aided by soldiers and armour of the regular Russian army, "
    That's the problem with reporting. Everything gets posted that Kiev says, despite so many previous lies from them.

    NATO's involvement is truly shameful and their motives obvious from the start.

    There would be no ceasefire acceptance by Kiev if what they said 2 weeks ago about rebels being encircles etc were true. They accepted it because they're on the back foot.

    Shameful too that Cameron is such a willing participant in all this too.
    A disgrace to Britain

    ProfWilliams , 06 September 2014 6:37pm
    For a sustained long term peace it should obvious to any thinking person by now that the remnants of the beaten ukie army and neo-nazi volunteers will in the end have to pull back all their forces out of Novorossiya.

    They have slaughtered too many innocent civilians in the east now and destroyed too many of their citizens' homes and cities. They only have themselves to blame now for the enduring hatred of the people they invaded.

    sasha19 ProfWilliams , 06 September 2014 7:17pm
    Professor, there is no New Russia state. Both sides in this mess have slaughtered so let's be fair and clear...wars kill and destroy well beyond the combatants.
    ProfWilliams sasha19 , 06 September 2014 7:53pm
    Yes Sasha true, but Kiev and Lvov were not shelled. The cities in the east, especially Donetsk and Lugansk, were regularly shelled and badly, by the Kiev army and the neonazi volunteers. Both sides have lost brave soldiers but nearly all the innocent women and children killed were from the east. This will not be quickly forgotten or forgiven. The country has been irreversibly radicalised. How else could it be after a civil war. It cannot go back to how it was before.
    fansince76 sasha19 , 06 September 2014 8:03pm
    What Western Ukrainian towns and cities were bombed daily for 5 months?

    "Fields all around were scorched, and in some places smoke was still rising from where Grad missiles had landed the day before. In a nearby village, three Ukrainian tanks had been abandoned in the courtyard of a school kindergarten. Two were burned out, while one was untouched but had clearly been left in a hurry, rucksacks and personal possessions of its occupants left strewn around it, a sticker reading "Fuck off Putin" stuck to the base of its turret.

    The windows of the kindergarten had all been blown out, its roof removed, and there were gaping holes in the walls, apparently from mortar rounds.

    "The tanks came in about six in the morning," said one villager who did not want to give his name. "As soon as they set up position there, you could here the booms come in from that direction," he said, pointing at the pro-Russia lines. It was unclear whether those in the tanks had escaped alive.

    There was anger in the village, which until Saturday had seen no major fighting, over the destruction of the school. "See what a glorious army we have," said one middle-aged woman, sarcastically. "Parked their tanks up in our kindergarten, now the whole thing has gone."

    Why hasn't Shaun Walker told us about the majority anti Kiev sentiment in Mariupol until now?

    Hanwell123 ProfWilliams, 07 September 2014 12:37am

    Some of the UltraNationalists really do consider " killing them all" and effect an ethnic clearing on a large WW2 scale.
    Paul Tunstead fansince76, 07 September 2014 3:03am
    Walker is a lair, him and Luke Harding.

    John Pilger done an excellent piece on this rag and it's views on this conflict. He even mentions our two friends by name.

    Paul Tunstead sasha19, 07 September 2014 3:09am
    Clear and fair. You mean to say this rag has been clear and fair in it's reporting of Ukraine? Nope, not even close to being clear and fair. Kiev has been targeting civilian populations knowingly for the past five months, every day pounding them. Innocent kids blown up daily and you want clear and fair.

    Do you know of an instance when the other side targeted civilian populations? No, neither do I and I've been following this since it began last year. Even with Walkers and Hardings lies they have never reported that one(or at least I've never seen it).

    fansince76 Paul Tunstead , 07 September 2014 3:21am
    There was a fantastic piece done last night on the Telegraph (of all places) by Christopher Booking.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/

    I posted it tonight, but it was removed pronto.

    Shocking, relatively speaking, in its clarity and condemnation of our political elites.

    Almost revolutionary, read it before it disappears.

    Ishowerdaily, 06 September 2014 6:44pm
    "Fighters from the Azov battalion, the volunteer grouping with far-right leanings that has done much of the fighting around Mariupol, sat on a restaurant terrace eating pizzas; families strolled in the sunshine, wedding parties breezed through central streets beeping horns."

    Well doesn't that sounds idyllic, just like the scene in Cabaret where the handsome boy sings Tomorrow Belongs To me.

    edwardrice -> Ishowerdaily , 06 September 2014 7:06pm
    Bloody he'll, you're right
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LNMVMNmrqJE
    Ishowerdaily -> edwardrice, 06 September 2014 7:18pm
    I always thought I understood what 'The banality of evil' meant, I never believed I would see it in action on this mass scale.

    Utterly fucking depressing.

    edwardrice -> Ishowerdaily , 06 September 2014 8:12pm
    Utterly fucking depressing.
    Ishowerdaily -> edwardrice , 07 September 2014 6:40am
    And now I wake up to find the self same pizza eating ubermensch are the sole source of information in a story that attempts to bring down the ceasefire.

    Depressing and unbelievable.

    [Sep 06, 2014] Ukraine ceasefire holds so far as Poroshenko orders halt at dusk by Shaun Walker in Mariupol

    theguardian.com
    Biletskiy raised the possibility of volunteer fighters continuing a kind of partisan warfare to win back the regions: "As soldiers we will obey our orders but as citizens that will be hard."

    One of his subordinates said: "We will use the ceasefire to regroup and retrain, and then we will take the land back."

    Robert Sandlin, 05 September 2014 7:07pm

    I don't know where the author is getting his info from.But the Ukie's have been shelling Donetsk all morning.And are shelling Gorlovka and Makeevka as I type this.They haven't honored the ceasefire at all.Its another Poroshenko sham.Or he can't control the oligarch paid death squads.Either way,if they don't stop the "ceasefire" is done.
    Theodore Svedberg -> Robert Sandlin , 05 September 2014 7:17pm
    It might be too much to expect the ceasefire being accepted by all of the different groups at once. You are correct that the central government doesn't have a unified command over all of their forces since there are at least two oligarch run militias and the right sector dominated national guard battalions have always maintained their independence. We should give them a few days -- the reality on the ground should convince them that further fighting now is futile.
    LeDingue -> Dreikaiserbund , 05 September 2014 10:00pm

    That concept is only "real" in Western media, it's just propaganda.
    One is free to align oneself with it of course.

    Ask NASA if Putin is a pariah and they'll give you a blank look as they unpack their latest delivery of rocket engines. Ask the US airforce as they use Russian airspace in Iraq and Afghanistan operations. Ask the FBI as they liase with Russia over organised crime heroin traffic.

    And ask the Pentagon as they are currently coordinating negotiations with Iran and Syria over Isis.
    The media portrayal of Russia and its leaders is merely that: a portrayal. If it weren't for Russian intervention the US would have launched an attack on Assad's forces last year. Ask yourself what kind of mess that would now have become...

    Dreikaiserbund -> LeDingue , 05 September 2014 10:11pm
    You seem like a very bright chap. I like your logic: western media, which is overwhelmeningly owned by media barons or corporations, is propaganda.

    Ergo, Russian media, which is overwhelmingly controlled by the state, is... free, fair and factual?

    LeDingue -> Dreikaiserbund , 05 September 2014 11:03pm

    media, which is overwhelmingly controlled by the state

    The current political and economic structures in Russia are only 14 years old. If they can resist foreign (ie American) efforts to degrade the progress they've made so far then the development of a reasonably open society stands a chance.

    14 years is not a long time for a free media to develop.

    Our own open society is a lot older but it was only a little while ago that this news outlet was obliged to destroy computers in its basement overseen by MI5 officers as a public humiliation (the information on them was duplicated elsewhere so it served no practical purpose).
    Meanwhile in the US it has long been public knowledge that the security apparatus interferes with the media in a variety of ways: from CNN editorial offices hosting military psyops to the electronic surveillance of political journalists. Just today I read this: A prominent national security reporter for the Los Angeles Times routinely submitted drafts and detailed summaries of his stories to CIA press handlers prior to publication

    It's all relative.

    One can either respond to contrived tribalism and disinformation without thinking or one can take a broader and more informed (and necessarily less simplistic) perspective. It's your choice.

    vr13vr, 05 September 2014 7:08pm
    So how does it work in the West?

    Russia made cease fire proposal and Cameron replied by promising more sanction?

    The West is talking about escalation and troops, yet someone is suspicious because the cease fire proposal came from Russia, the only party that even talked about cease fire?

    Poroshenko declared that he would wipe out Eastern Ukrainian terrorists and will continue bombing the cities until the end, yet Obama praises him for successful peace effort?

    And it is all in the same article. Is this world still real? Do the Western politicians even blush when they keep on saying this nonsense? Does the people in West are so blind and deaf when they read the paper or listen to the news?

    Robert Sandlin -> vr13vr, 05 September 2014 7:12pm
    Russia just needs to stay strong and do what they need ,to support their brothers. There is no way to deal with the West.They want to destroy Russia. And words won't stop them, only staying strong will.
    richiep40, 05 September 2014 7:11pm
    So the PR war continues.

    I heard a clip of Obama's speech tonight. According to him the ceasefire was because they forced Putin to the negotiating through sanctions.

    As I suggested earlier my guess was in fact the credit should go to Obama , because he finally persuaded Pershenko that the US wasn't going to go to war for him, and he better make a deal.

    What a didiculous world we live in, a guy does something decent and for political reasons he can't take credit for it, and our 'free press' are either too stupid or biased to publish it.

    Theodore Svedberg , 05 September 2014 7:11pm
    Ukraine really had no option but to accept this ceasefire. They had just suffered a terrible defeat and the city of Mariupol was about to fall to rebel forces. The question for the future is how they respond. Most hope that the future negotiations will lead to an agreement between provisional Donbas governments and Kiev. This agreement will have to consist of the following points. A Kiev led central army will not be allowed to be stationed in the Donbas. The region will provide for its own security forces. The governors of the these oblasts will be elected by the local people, no longer will Kiev appoint the administrators. Taxes paid in the Donbas will stay in the Donbas. And the people of Donbas will have the right to negotiate their own trade agreements with Russia. The victories of the rebel militias have earned the Donbas people these freedoms from Kiev.

    It is hard to imagine Kiev accepting such conditions. They will more likely, at least initially, use the time of these negotiations to rebuild their shattered army with military aid from western powers with the hope to go back on the offensive later. Hopefully, the time out will be an educational experience for Kiev's leaders and their nationalist supporters that war is not going to work. It means they will have to accept that they just lost the war and some of their goals are unattainable.

    This is the path that will preserve the current country called Ukraine. Otherwise it will the state will have to be broken up.

    Robert Sandlin -> Theodore Svedberg, 05 September 2014 7:16pm
    They learned nothing positive.Its just a scam to rebuild and resupply their forces.It was a huge error for the NAF to agree to the "ceasefire",that Kiev still isn't even honoring.
    sHermiu , 05 September 2014 7:12pm
    The bottom line is this: Kiev has been stopped in its aggressive tracks by the defenders of Donbas - mainly farmers, taxi drivers, miners and local people.

    At the time of the ceasefire Kiev was losing the war. When this happened last time (Kiev losing), during the first two weeks of July, Kiev went on the retreat. Then the M17 plane crash conveniently occurred and this put Kiev on the moral front foot again, for a short time anyway.

    The turning point was the encirclement of some 4,000 near the Russian border at the beginning of August. The defeat of these troops left the rebels with hundreds of artillery, tanks and other vehicles. Within a week these weapons were being used against the Ukies in Luhansk and Donetsk and began to turn the tide against Kiev.

    From then on the balance of power shifted to the rebels as they defeated more and more Ukie brigades and subsequently increased, daily, the firepower under their control.

    At the time of the ceasefire, I would estimate the rebels were about one third the strength of Ukie army in weapons and men. But the passion of fighting for your own land, your own family, town and village meant the rebels were, to a man, fiercer and more determined, and this factor made up the deficit for the rebels and still does.

    vr13vr, 05 September 2014 7:13pm

    "Barack Obama expressed doubts at the Nato summit that the truce would result in anything more substantial"

    It has already resulted in something more substantial than what Obama has ever established - a cease fire, even if it doesn't last long. Obama is just a cheap demagogue.

    NottaBot, 05 September 2014 7:28pm
    From the article:

    "there was scepticism over whether the more radical elements on either side would obey the ceasefire"

    Walker then directly quotes the leader of the "far-right" Azov battalion making comments that support his statement about "radical elements on either side" possibly not obeying the ceasefire. Given this direct quote, skepticism regarding the intentions of the "far-right" Azov battalion is certainly justified. But where is the complementary quote from the insurgents saying something similar? On what does Walker base this "plague on both houses" statement?

    Guest222, 05 September 2014 7:35pm
    But David Cameron told the Nato summit that a fresh round of sanctions against Russia, imposed for its heavy military involvement in eastern Ukraine, would still go ahead.

    "Heavy military involvement"? How heavy? 280 trucks with humanitarian aid? A couple of thousand Russian volunteers? Some French, Spanish, Serbian volunteers?

    Anything else, "heavy"? Evidence, please! And do not tell us that US with the world best spying systems couldn`t detect it. Not to mention the international observers who haven`t noticed any Russian tanks or soldiers crossing the border. Must be pure magic from Putin`s side...

    VoiceFromNowhere -> Guest222, 05 September 2014 10:55pm

    Some French, Spanish, Serbian volunteers?

    Moreover, people say there are 25 American antifascist volunteers on the Donetsk and Luhansk side. Luckily, there are a lot of conscientious and honest people among Americans…

    achacachi, 05 September 2014 7:40pm
    I think that Belgium had a lot to do with it. Since last year the Americans made Belgium buy 270 Billion USD in US Bonds, a lot of them dissed by the Russians. After China and Japan that small and tiny Belgium is now on 3. place, holding 400 Billion USD in US Bonds.

    That`s a lot of toilet paper for Belgium alone. Russia doesn`t need rockets, they shoot with US-Bonds and US-Dollars. I`m pretty sure that the US goverment told their European poodles and their ECB to buy as much US Bonds as they are told to the US from sinking.

    http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/rupee/the-belgian-mystery_1091348.html

    Ozma46 -> achacachi, 05 September 2014 10:24pm
    Yes I have been watching the implausible buy up of US Bonds by Belgium, haven't seen anything that listed what countries were selling though, my guess was Russia, have you seen any info?
    SHappens, 05 September 2014 7:40pm

    The obvious would be to let Ukraine deal further with the Separatists without the West meddling. They will be able to do it on their own much better.

    Now that US had what it wanted - their NRF or "NATO response force, which is an enlargement of existing bases and more military shift at a faster readiness which will cost EU 2% PIB over a period 2025, they must forget about their insane ambitions and walk away. Let the shale gas in the Donbass and take back home Biden who is currently at the wrong place. The plan of weakening Russia has failed, but more important will never succeed. If they want to believe this NATO Summit Club Med was a deterrent ok fine.

    EU must on its side support the ceasefire this time. I dont think they want more sanctions, that's a tool used so that it gives the impression Russia did bend in front of the EU, but we know it is not the case. Putin always let an open door for its opponents to exit with dignity. Diplomacy they call it, that thing Barroso isnt aware of.

    LeDingue -> SHappens, 05 September 2014 9:29pm

    The plan of weakening Russia has failed

    As ever in these geopolitical chessgames there are complications at play behind the (media reported) scenes that compromise one CIA plan by it being corrupted by the failure of another. With the widespread modern use of proxies the American planners continually struggle to coordinate the left hand with the right. At the same time American covert foreign policy is no longer the preserve of official agencies as their entire system of government has become increasingly captured by transatlantic corporate power. That is the Bush legacy (of GHW Bush) where a confusion or grey area arose between authority assumed by the CIA and his family's allegiance to the Saud family cemented by the Carlyle Group association which has a British component.

    The long-planned economic emasculation of Russia has been fought on geopolitical grounds: Iran & Syria and commercial (corporate) grounds: natural gas supply to Europe from Qatar to replace Russian supply.

    The reported clue to the cross-contamination and collapse of the American plan was the quiet replacement of the head of Saudi intelligence Bandar bin Sultan, a family friend of the Bushes. He had headed up the recruitment and training of the sunni jihadi forces to create civil war in Syria but, as we can now see with Isis, completely lost control of the operation.
    That happened more or less simultaneously with the Kiev regime change and the reshuffling of oligarchic power in Ukraine. The planned destabilisation of Crimea failed; the attempts to coerce EU countries into an economic embargo of Russia have met more resistance than expected.

    Now the Isis blowback requires Russian assistance and must take precedence. This wasn't only Bandar's fault but blame must also lie with the Petraeus/Steele shia death squad scandal (although that was more of a Pentagon operation than CIA it all overlaps).
    It was reported last week that Cameron wouldn't consider cooperation with Assad - which means that possibility was at least on the table. What a turn around from Obama in the Rose Garden announcing the imminent bombing of Assad forces last year!

    Do you see how complicated this all gets when one peeks behind the media-matrix?
    The control of American covert foreign action is fragmented even within on agency (the CIA) and competed over by a half dozen factions through military, intelligence, political and corporate. It is absolutely not the apparently coherent media front presented at the NATO meeting.

    And now these talking heads of partisan interests must come together to attempt to deal with the hideous CIA blowback that is Isis. And that means cooperating with Russia, Iran and, yes!, Syria. Obviously Putin will require the ending of Kiev's brutal military actions in east Ukraine that has created, besides thousands of dead and a destroyed Ukrainian economy, nearly a million refugees now in Russia. Putin is probably asking himself to what extent Obama is actually in control of the US military and intellignece... because they will now have to work with Russia to deal with Isis.

    Ozma46 -> SHappens, 05 September 2014 10:28pm

    Would that you were right, but the US has plans for Ukraine and bigger plans for Russia, the US may go play for a while in the middle east but they will be back and back again if necessary until they take all or are deterred by significant political changes at home. Political changes none of which I see coming any time soon.
    LeDingue -> Ozma46, 05 September 2014 10:40pm

    I agree in general with your comment but a possibility is that domestic economic and social problems may overtake US imperial ambition as outlined by Brezinski and Wolfowitz.
    The banking crisis has not gone away, Fed Res money printing continues and the dollar's international hegemony is under threat from the BRICS.
    Personally I think flames can be seen licking around the imperial edifice though in ideological terms you are quite correct.
    savingUK, 05 September 2014 7:54pm

    So are the "far-right Azov volunteer battalion" mentioned above fighting on behalf of the Ukrainian government? And are they being supported and armed by them?
    Robert Sandlin -> savingUK, 05 September 2014 8:02pm
    By them and now by NATO as well, Sieg Heil.
    savingUK -> , 05 September 2014 8:20pm
    I just read the Times article about them. The Russian media has been banging on about neo-Nazis for months and there's been virtually nothing (till now) in the western press.
    Juritiba -> savingUK, 05 September 2014 8:34pm
    Maybe you didn't watch the fights at Maidan Square. They were there with swastikas and all. They had been interviewed and were openly Nazis.
    LeDingue -> savingUK 05 September 2014 10:33pm

    It gets worse.

    A "quick search" will allow you to discover that Joe Biden's son (Hunter Biden) and a family friend of John Kerry are in gas business with oligarch Kolomoisky: Biden's Son, Kerry Family Friend Join Ukrainian Gas Producer's Board

    Billionaire and Privatbank owner Kolomoisky hosts and funds the neo-nazi Pravy Sektor Donbas battalion.
    A neo-nazi paramilitary militia is fighting to gain control of the eastern Ukrainian fracking fields on behalf of Biden family business investments. You won't read it put quite like that in the media!

    theonionmurders -> savingUK, 06 September 2014 12:52am
    ...and they have very deep roots in Ukraine's institutions and culture. At least the EU thought so in 2013 when commissioning this peer reviewed article which they promptly pulled from their site earlier this year.

    The Return of the Ukrainian Far Right The Case of VO Svoboda.

    Robert Sandlin, 05 September 2014 8:01pm
    So much for signing agreements with Poroshenko:

    TRUCE FAKE 1
    18:10 On Makeyevka work sirens, ukry are shelling with heavy artillery. In the mine area 88 rising black smoke.
    TRUCE FAKE 2
    18:35 intense shelling of Makeyevka and Donetsk.Nazis are the artillery fire from Volnovakha with systems MLRS
    TRUCE FAKE 3
    19:05 of #Kiev, the #Nazis continued the bombardment of #Donetsk (Budenovka, Petrovsky).
    TRUCE FAKE 4
    19:20 In #Makeevka again there was an explosion.
    TRUCE FAKE 5
    20:00 Continue Nazi shelling. The blows were inflicted on Yasinovka and Volnovakha district.
    TRUCE FAKE 6
    20:40 In #Gorlovka still hear the cannonade

    Black Cat -> Robert Sandlin, 05 September 2014 8:09pm
    So, how long before "Russian troops" are accused of breaking the ceasefire?

    But then what? Kiev needs a real ceasefire if only as a cover to regroup its forces. If the fighting resumes today or in the next days then Mariupol will fall and things will only get worse for the UAF.

    lids -> Black Cat, 05 September 2014 8:12pm
    Probably the fascists refusing to heed to the will of Porky.

    Coup number two round the corner?

    dannymerger, 05 September 2014 8:03pm

    Obama 'hopeful' but – with other Nato leaders – expresses scepticism over long-term success of truce

    Only because peace in Ukraine is the last thing Obama and Cameron want. They want another large scale profitable war to kick off. Russia just has too much mineral wealth and independence for the wannabe rulers of the world.

    [Sep 05, 2014] Ukraine ceasefire 'agreed for east of country' at Minsk peace talks by Shaun Walker in Mariupol

    Kiev "junta in chocolate" is not a party in this negotiations, the USA is the actual puppetmaster. Looks more like State Department plot to start "pro Russian separatists violate the ceasefire propaganda campaign". From comments: "A Ukrainian citizen put it in perspective for us : We had a government of thieves , we have now a government of murderers. This conflict has been manufactured from day one. Now it's for us to find who it benefits because the press won't say."
    The Guardian
    dion13, 05 September 2014 2:35pm
    I'm afraid the Novorussiya govs didn't learn a thing. Name one time when Poroshenko spoke the truth on what's going on in Donbas.
    Same for his propagandists Lysenko, Heletey, Avakov and the rest. Just a constant flow of lies.
    This one is just that. You can't change crocodile's nature.
    HansVonDerHeyde -> shpuntik, 05 September 2014 3:57pm
    Why would you believe an liar Oligarch that before being elected stated the he wanted ¨end war and bring peace¨

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27571612

    yet a day later Ukrainian Army starts a new ¨operation¨ against the east....

    Ian A Guthrie, 05 September 2014 2:41pm
    How disappointing for some.
    After all the war mongering we have been subjected to ,particularly in the liberal media.
    Never the less an end to fighting would be a blessing for the poor sods who end up having to do it. lets hope it lasts.
    richiep40, 05 September 2014 2:44pm
    Here we go again :

    However, there was fighting on the ground near Mariupol,...

    That's how ceasefires work Shaun, so why the 'However' ?

    an apparent injection of Russian troops and firepower over the past fortnight

    How strange, the language is subtly changing why the 'apparent' ?

    Gosh, another subtle change of language

    commander of the far-right Azov battalion

    Up to now the Guardian has described them as 'volunteer battalions'.

    What is going on, second thoughts ?

    Anthony121 -> Ian A Guthrie, 05 September 2014 2:45pm
    Yes great to chant "Its 1938 all over again" when swilling champagn in Cardiff
    Alice Ponomareva, 05 September 2014 2:41pm
    Russian Defense Ministry has found all the soldiers in the list of the ones who "vanished", "most likely, in Ukraine" - applied officially to them by the Committee of Soldiers' Mothers.
    But one man.
    HansVonDerHeyde -> Alice Ponomareva, 05 September 2014 3:24pm
    The same organisation that received $350,000 from U.S.....hmmm

    http://alethonews.wordpress.com/2014/08/30/russian-soldiers-mothers-committees-a-us-covert-op/

    aucontraire2, 05 September 2014 2:45pm
    A Ukrainian citizen put it in perspective for us : We had a government of thieves , we have now a government of murderers.
    This conflict has been manufactured from day one . Now it's for us to find who it benefits because the press won't say.
    Kaiama, 05 September 2014 2:45pm
    Both sides needed to sign something:-
    1 Kiev was getting crucified militarily.
    2 Moscow wanted to head off sanctions.
    The separatists will have to pause awhile.
    I beleive that both sides will talk, but getting Kiev to leave the Donbass will not come easily (unless they are kicked out by the separatist military).
    This still has a year or so to run, and the gas problem is not even half solved.
    Lee M, 05 September 2014 2:46pm
    All day, and even during the ceasefire talks, the Ukrainian army has still been shelling residential areas.

    So please forgive me for not whooping with joy at this story. I really, really hope it's serious and the killing stops and people can finally return home and rebuild their lives, but at this stage it's very difficult for me to trust any words coming out of the mouth of that mass-murdering oligarch Poroshenko.

    Jeremn -> Lee M, 05 September 2014 3:42pm
    Poroshenko, an oligarch who has just sold his chocolate empire to the son of Yanukovich the Corrupt.

    I don't think Maidan has achieved a lot, really. Killed a lot, yes, but achieved a lot, no. Corruption solved? See above. Democracy? Sure Yats is a democratic leader, Nuland appointed him.

    StanislavCh, 05 September 2014 2:46pm

    between Ukrainian government representatives and separatist leaders

    Who is Kuchma? He fills no post in current Ukr government. What powers does he have to sign important agreements on behalf of Ukraine ?
    Who are separatist leaders ? Are they a "side of a conflict" now ? They were called terrorists by Ukr propaganda just yesterday. Does their participating in this deal mean that their "people's republics" are recognised , at least as partners in negotiations ?
    More questions than answers. It will not work methinks.
    Black Cat -> StanislavCh, 05 September 2014 2:49pm
    None of it bears close analysis, but at least they're talking. This is some sort of progress. Let's just hope this time real peace can be achieved.
    Jeremn -> StanislavCh, 05 September 2014 3:46pm
    Here's an article from 2005. Same old names. Pinchuk, Kuchma, Poroshenko, Tymoshenko. Same old themes. Privatisation, corruption.
    Black Cat, 05 September 2014 2:47pm
    No responsible reporting should make claims of "apparent" Russian troops on the ground when, after over two months of such assertions there is still no credible evidence to back them up. It's such biased reporting, such bellicose and empty accusing that betrays the western agenda. And it's this agenda that most threatens the success of this latest ceasefire.

    Let's not forget Poroshenko tore up the last deal, leaky as it was on both sides, due to pressure from his own hardliners and the neocons in Washington who are paying for this junket.

    Jeremn -> Black Cat, 05 September 2014 3:53pm
    The neocons might be paying, but they are getting their money back. A must read on how the IMF is bringing poverty to Ukrainians so that banks and off-shore financiers can stay afloat.

    In short, of the $3.2 billion disbursed to the Ukrainian treasury by the IMF at the start of May, $3.1 billion had disappeared offshore by the middle of August.

    I think it is called looting? I hope the Donbass will be spared it, this time.

    Charliedaz, 05 September 2014 2:48pm
    If the ceasefire is agreed, as seems likely, and far right "volunteers" continue with what Biletskiy calls "partisan warfare", as also seems likely, it will be interesting to see how Western leaders will respond.
    dion13 -> Charliedaz, 05 September 2014 2:59pm
    There was no cease fire when civilians were being killed and displaced, but now that Poroshenko is losing the war he suddenly is ready for a cease-fire!

    The Ukrainian people are starting to see through the government propaganda and censorship, and Petro Oleksiyovych Poroshenko (born Waltzman) is facing a revolt in Kiev now that news is leaking out that 14,000 Ukrainian troops have been lost in this pointless civil war of ethnic cleansing of ethnic Russians and destruction of East Ukraine's industrial infrastructure!

    Poroshenko knows that when he loses Donbass, the Donbass self defence forces will come after him in Kiev for war crimes and crimes against humanity!

    It remains to be seen if this cease-fire is genuine and if the Fascist Right Sector fighters would be willing to digest Kiev's declaration!

    TrueBrit1066, 05 September 2014 2:49pm

    Not good news for NATO and the hawks then :)

    sodtheproles TrueBrit1066, 05 September 2014 3:08pm

    Correction - chicken hawks

    UInsider sodtheproles, 05 September 2014 3:32pm

    another correction: bloody chicken hawks

    Alice Ponomareva, 05 September 2014 2:49pm

    Donbas have complained to Kiev that Kuchma is no good as a rep from Ukraine, at the talks, because he has no written credentials, not officially empowered, by Kiev, to conduct talks or sign papers on behalf of Kiev and Ukraine.

    He is nobody, an ex-Ukrainian president, ousted out of power back in 1994.
    Since then - a private person.

    In the important talks, representing Kiev and Ukraine - by an own initiative.

    Once again, there isn't a shred of evidence that Kiev /Ukraine will be obliged to follow any thing Kuchma "agrees to".

    They are not liable. Kuchma does not have Kiev mandate for talks.

    That's what, correctly, bothers Donbas.

    Mac1977 , 05 September 2014 2:50pm
    This possible conflict seems to controlled from both fronts, and I can safely say that the vast numbers DO NOT WANT CONFLICT. But, the thing is, it seems out of the control of our hands. What about the people's say?

    The world is becoming smaller all the time. With the internet and this wild fire spreading of information (as opposed to knowledge) there needs to be an awareness that this "war" and "conflict" is under control by those that run this world.

    So, "4pm" ceasefire - well, that is a sliver of an insight into how much control over the possible outcomes. For one thing, they do not want too many wars on too many fronts - perhaps!

    But just look around the internet and any brief scan across ALL media stations, it seems as though there is but ONE script writer. Check youtube and search "same script NEWS" - and over 100 "reporters" are saying the same story and it is - VERBATIM. WORD4WORD,,,,

    What would that mean? Well, to turn back to the initial thought here: THEY are in control; in control of your media, in control of your re-actions.

    In my humble opinion they capture your mind through fear and sex - and it is all located in your base-mind. You think you can get away from it? No, you can't,
    That would mean a choice for liberty, and that is the last thing anyone wants.

    kennyboy , 05 September 2014 2:50pm
    God news, but many a slip twixt cup and lip. The complicating factors are many and there will, I am sure be setbacks. The fascist forces may not be pleased about the developments and could ignore a cease fire and will, undoubtedly be used by Washington as "proof" that Russia can't be trusted. In Kyiv, the CIA will be working with Yats to undermine Poreshenko and with parliament dissolved could boil down to pitched battles in the Maidan again. Washington is busy arming whoever their creatures are in Kyiv and where their are armaments and "advisors" their is the obvious potential to start it all again.

    It is to be hoped that the population of Western Ukraine are sickened by the killing and will support the "peace" side and that the population of Europe will wake up to what their governments have been complicit in, at the urging of Washington.

    Alice Ponomareva, 05 September 2014 2:50pm
    Donbas wants Avakov, or Poroshenko, or any one officially in any position in Ukraine - to sign the deal with them.
    dion13 -> Alice Ponomareva, 05 September 2014 3:01pm
    "Now we are urging Ukraine to send an official negotiator, must be a person who understands the situation and has a certain status" it says.

    Besides, Leonid Baranov, another DPR negotiator and its acting minister of state security, said that the Ukrainian troops should withdraw from the DPR.

    "It must be understood that 'artillery retracting from the cities' - if we read between the lines - means Ukrainian troops' withdrawal from the Donetsk region since the rapid succession of the Uragan (Hurricane) multiple rocket launcher is 35 kilometres," he said.

    edwardrice, 05 September 2014 2:53pm

    Andriy Biletskiy, commander of the far-right Azov battalion, which has been doing much of the fighting, said

    Andriy Biletsky is also the leader of a Ukrainian organization called the Social National Assembly. Its aims are stated in one of their online publications:

    "to prepare Ukraine for further expansion and to struggle for the liberation of the entire White Race from the domination of the internationalist speculative capital"

    "to punish severely sexual perversions and any interracial contacts that lead to the extinction of the white man"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28329329

    Good to know what side David Cameron and the rest of our EU leaders are on.

    [Sep 05, 2014] Nato can be a force for good – as Baltic experience shows by Rafael Behr

    This presstitute has chutzpah to state that Nato has been a friend to Baltic Russophones.("The awkward fact for Kremlin apologists is that Nato has been a friend to Baltic Russophones." NATO is the instrument of US policy and always has been. And the US neoliberal elite is deeply, pathologically hostile to Russians and Russia. Looks like his point is that if people are not killed for their ethnicity or native language they speak like in Ukraine, they should be very grateful to NATO for this... In reality Russians replaced Jews as a legitimate object of ethnic hatred in the USA and probably several other Western countries. Definitely in all Baltic states. BTW Russian minorities are pushed out of the Baltic countries into western Europe as cheap labor. So brain drain from Baltic countries is a factor that even rabid nationalists need to take into account. It's impressive that he likes Baltic Apartheid regimes so much. BTW it would bee interesting to know, would Rafael Berg join another Waffen SS veterans march in Riga ?
    The Guardian

    ... many ethnic Russians marooned in the Baltic and denied full citizenship of their new host country.

    ... ... ...

    The problem has not disappeared and there are still grievances over citizenship...

    JovialMerchant -> Sakuya, 04 September 2014 3:55pm
    The democratically elected president of Ukraine (ousted by a Western-backed coup), would say the same about NATO and the West.

    As would half the globe - especially those in South America.

    Then again, we're in the middle of a massive war-mongering campaign, so such details are simply irrelevant.

    Congrats to the Guardian for playing its part in September 2014 3:36pm

    Russians in Baltic are second - sort citizens but they should be grateful even for that? That how I should read it? The denying of basic rights is OK if it's Russians because western slavery is better than life in Russia? Seriously?
    ValuedCustomer -> koshenka, 04 September 2014 3:49pm
    Also, it apparently requires threats by NATO to keep the non-Russian's elected representatives from reverting to racist barbarism.

    How comforting that must be for the Russian population.

    Jeremn -> koshenka, 04 September 2014 4:14pm
    If there isn't a problem why would there be such a thing as a Latvian Non-Citizens Congress (representing 300,000 people "denied political rights"? This is just one comment or two from that congress:

    Latvian non-citizens are entirely disenfranchised from all political rights by being a special category of Latvian nationals living, working and paying taxes in Latvia for generations but without any citizenship. Due to the fact that non-citizens are ethnic minorities, the situation was a prominent cause of concern for the European Commission during the enlargement negotiations in 1995-2004. However, after joining the European Union, the Latvian government significantly diminished its efforts for complying with the Copenhagen criteria with regards to political rights of ethnic minorities.

    and

    "This year is the 10th anniversary of the EU Eastern enlargement, and Latvia is not the only country that still has not achieved human rights standards agreed by accession ten years ago. Unfortunately we have to agree with CoE Commissioner for Human rights, Mr. Nils Muižnieks, that human rights in the European Union remain more often an issue "for export" than for domestic consumption." – said Elizabete Krivcova, head of Latvian Non-citizens' Congress

    Beckow -> Aetrus, 04 September 2014 4:15pm
    25% were Russian immigrants and children of immigrants. And that is evil exactly how? There are 'immigrants" all over the world, from Canada to UK, from France to Estonia. They are human and have equal rights.

    Russians are a recognized minority in Estonia and Latvia (30% of population is a minority by any standard), thus the "language test" is illegal by EU's own rules. Hungarians in Romania don't have to pass Romanian language test to be citizens - they live there, it is a multi-lingual society.

    In any case keeping half of Russian population as non-citizens 25 years is against EU rules - but I guess that is ok with you, they are just "Russians"....

    tiye60 -> EndersShadow, 04 September 2014 9:33pm

    Fortunately for the Balts, they got back control of their borders from the USSR

    That is obviously because the USSR and afterwards Russia were not against it. The uncomfortable truth is that, in the end, to a largest extent, the Baltic states were given their independence by Moscow. One would think this largesse, as well as the fact that the Russian-speaking population joined the ethnic Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, in various peaceful demonstrations and protests for sovereignty in the end ot the 1980s, would have wiped away the sins, so to say, of the previous generations and the Baltic states would have acted as Europeans.

    SocalAlex -> Beckow, 04 September 2014 10:10pm

    In any case keeping half of Russian population as non-citizens 25 years is against EU rules - but I guess that is ok with you, they are just "Russians"....

    It certainly is against EU rules. Unfortunately it's not a unique case.

    There are at least 10s of thousands of ethnic/cultural Turks in Greece who also "enjoy" the same kind of "non-citizen" status and have done so for nearly 70 years.

    Indeed, even here in Austria, disgracefully, the language rights of the ethnic minority Slovenians in the Southeast are still not fully granted, nearly a quarter of a century after we joined the EU, even though it was actually already a condition for regaining our independence after WWII!

    (That said, with all due respect given Hungary's recent track record regarding minorities, they are sure as hell not a model to hold up!)

    Unfortunately, when it comes to things like this, the EU does indeed rarely back up their words with action.

    Beckow -> tiye60, 04 September 2014 11:03pm
    "I don't think they are Russians necessarily, but rather, Russian-speaking"

    They were born to Russian parents, they speak Russian, they self-identify as Russians. They are Russian.

    By the way Latvia already had 12% Russian minority in 1900. These are not some new "immigrants", this is a community that has lived there for hundred or more years.

    tiye60 -> Beckow, 05 September 2014 5:29am
    I think those who were living in Latvia before the Soviet invasion and occupation were given citizenship? Might be wrong...

    I mean this by Russian speakers, rather than ethnic Russians or even potential Russian citizens:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-citizens_(Latvia)

    With respect to Latvia's largest ethnic minorities: 31.7% of ethnic Russians are non-citizens, comprising 65.7% of all non-citizens; 51.9% of Belarusians are non-citizens, comprising 13.6% of the total; while 52.3% of Ukrainians are non-citizens, comprising 9.7% of the total.[12] In the age group below 18, non-citizens form 2.8 % of residents; in the age group above 80, 25.5 %, as at 2013.[13] As of 2014, the majority of non-citizens, 62.4%, live in the three biggest cities of country: Riga, Daugavpils and Liepāja, which comprise 40.3% of Latvia's population.[14] Additionally, 4,094 non-citizens were registered as living outside Latvia.[15]

    retsiLdivaD -> Aetrus, 05 September 2014 6:47am
    Yet, given the history of the Russians in Estonia, with over 7 decades of living in Estonia without having to learn the language, as well as, I would assume, a Russian minority presence before the war over independence, i would be more than reasonable for this country to have two national languages, so that a language test need not be taken. A little Belgium, were alternating dominance of Walloons and Flemish have left a rather bitter, but very much non-violent conflict, with no leading politicians in either the Netherlands or France being particularly interested in them.

    The year 1939 seems a little ominous to me, weren't there purges of Russians (and indeed Jews!) by the Vaps movement in the years preceding that date? If so,it's 90% purity may not be the argument you should rely on. What was the number say in 1925?

    RosalinaChalmers, 04 September 2014 3:51pm
    I have NEVER read such tripe.

    "The awkward fact for Kremlin apologists is that Nato has been a friend to Baltic Russophones."

    What? Has NATO given them Russian language rights (they have none) or the ability to vote (they have none)? NATO has done nothing useful for them.

    "Eastern Ukrainians aren't so lucky."

    Yes, but that's because they were attacked by Tyrchinov and then Poroshenko, with NATO as the CHIEF CHEERLEADER of the war on Eastern Ukraine.

    And before you ask - yes, I have been to the Baltics (Latvia) numerous times, and I know firsthand the impact on disenfranchised "stateless" ethnic Russians, because I have talked to many. That's not difficult, because they make up 40% of the population.

    goto100, 04 September 2014 3:52pm
    I'm sorry, but what evidence of any kind do you have that Russia has any interest in "reclaiming" the Baltic States? They have long since transitioned to being independent countries, and they display no interest in joining the Russian Federation.

    Their situation is in no way comparable to Ukraine, post-coup. It is a ludicrous straw man argument. There is no issue regarding Baltic State sovereignty. There are still some outstanding ones (according to the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance) regarding the rights of some of their residents.

    madeiranlotuseater -> goto100, 04 September 2014 4:02pm
    But, boy, does it help America΄s MIC. Spread a false fear in Europe.
    goto100 -> madeiranlotuseater, 04 September 2014 4:17pm
    It's so transparently obvious.
    Black Cat, 04 September 2014 3:55pm
    No shortage of hacks prepared to lie for that cosy sense of Big Bro's approval. That's one thing this crisis has made abundantly clear.
    goto100 -> Black Cat, 04 September 2014 4:03pm
    The co-opting of this newspaper, the day the hard drives were infamously destroyed, seems to be the story that hasn't been told so far. I honestly have to wonder. Something else happened in the basement that day. Some other men were there, with "real" threats backing them up. It would explain a lot.
    Comrade2070, 04 September 2014 3:55pm

    That impulse comes in part from the habit of routinely opposing anything containing the imperial whiff of western arrogance (I fear it also contains a weird muscle memory of genuflexion to Kremlin-friendly arguments). As if Moscow's self-serving narration of history to justify grabbing chunks of other countries' land is something other than imperialism.

    Hmmm, I wonder which former business manager for the defunct tankie publication Straight Left he could possibly be talking about?

    ploughmanlunch, 04 September 2014 4:04pm
    Of course 'Western enthusiasm for February's Maidan revolution and eagerness to deal with the new regime in Kiev is depicted by the Kremlin as a hostile act'.
    A democratically elected Government was violently overthrown.
    How can we go around bullying and bombing people in adopting 'democracy', when instead of encouraging people to use the democratic process and vote people out of office, we cheer as they use Molotov cocktails and cobble stones to achieve their aims.
    JovialMerchant -> ploughmanlunch, 04 September 2014 4:13pm
    We have been the ones instigating the violence in the first place. We want Ukraine's resources and NATO wants to use it to host its eastern bases so that it can threaten the emerging Russia/China bloc.

    This is not simply a story about Russia vs. Ukraine (or even the EU).

    This is just another addition to the story of geo-political maneouvering. The US, EU and the global banking interests didn't get their way in Syria and Iran (yet), mainly due to Russian support. This is revenge, plain and simple.

    Putin is scum (they all are). But he's not the real aggressor here, and he's not the one playing a reckless game that could threaten another World War.

    Beckow, 04 September 2014 4:07pm
    So when you cannot deny the obvious, you move on to minimizing it, admitting "problems", but saying that Baltic states with NATO encouragement are "working them through".

    Yes, 25 years after independence, they are "working on it". half of the Russians in Latvia and Estonia are still being denied citizenship that they had there before, these are not "immigrants" from Somalia, they were and born and lived there all of their lives. The one's without citizenship are mostly adult Russians who would be most likely to vote. If they were allowed to vote, the governments there would be very different. How is this ok with EU?

    I agree that joining EU and NATO forced the local Baltic nationalists to be slightly more accommodating. But they are stalling for time, theya re stretching the process. And EU is mostly silent. We don't hear from Merkel about it, we don't see in Western media - there are whole accounts of visits to Riga without ever mentioning that Riga is 50% a Russian city. Is the "apartheid? No, but this is EU there should be higher standards. And waiting for 25 years is long enough.

    So the author is trying to have it both ways, admit problems, but then surround that with a number of irrelevant qualifiers and then project it somehow into Ukraine. In Ukraine its Russian population was never deprived of their citizenship. Thus the need to overpower them via coups on Maidan. The statement that EU and NATO would make the nationalists in Kiev to behave better is ridiculous on its face: they are the ones who helped organize the coup, that are encouraging Kiev to suppress its Russian east with military. There has not been a single statement from EU and NATO demanding that Russians are given equal rights.

    It is again about Western perception of itself as a benevolent force for the good. In reality, EU and NATO play dirty ethnic politics: Latvians are always good, Russians always bad. Ukrainians good, Russians bad. Or Albanians in Kosovo good, Serbs bad.

    The nice talk is for public consumption, bombs are for real.

    stuperman -> Beckow, 04 September 2014 4:51pm
    ''demanding that Russians are given equal rights.''. The usual statement but always without explanation.
    The point of Russians in Latvia is that those born or emigrating before 1991 are expected to take an exam requiring a knowledge of the Latvian language and history. It is not difiicult but most Russians cannot be bothered (they have had 50/60 years to learn something but most cannot count in Latvian). Many have past the exam and obtained full passports (as have some African immigrants!). All those born after 1991 receive full citizenship even though they attend Latvian state funded Russian schools. Those without full passports still have the right to travel within the EU but must return after three months to renew visas. So, not a problem to learn elementary Latvian and history. Russian speakers are not discriminated against as when they speak in Russian they are always replied to in Russian. Public serving departments and shops require staff to be bi-lingual which can exclude not only Russians but also young Latvians who did not learn Russian at school. English is becoming the second language.

    P.S. The Latvian policy on acquiring citizenship has long been approved by Brussels.

    Beckow -> stuperman, 04 September 2014 7:05pm
    "The Latvian policy on acquiring citizenship has long been approved by Brussels."

    That's the problem. The article says that joining EU-NATO is good because their standards are higher. It has restrained the more crazy Baltic nationalism, but it has also made EU look very hypocritical. They look the other way ad don't apply their own rules when it comes to Russian minorities.

    Latvia is a bi-lingual country and has two main ethnic groups living there: Latvians and Russians. For example, the capitol Riga is about 50% Russian. Overall Russians are around 30-35% of the population. This is similar to Belgium (Flemish and French) or Romania or Finland (Finnish and Swedish). In those cases it is automatic that both nationalities have qeual rights. In Latvia, and Estonia, they don't.

    You can dace around it, bring up history, talk about preserving "Latvianness", whatever, it means nothing in 2014. People are equal and a concept of collective punishment of today's Russians for the sins of their ancestors is completely alien to Europe. Except when it comes to Russians.

    How is that possible in EU in 2014? Can we also start to discriminate against Germans, French, English, Hungarians, Turks or anyone else whose ancestors "did something"?

    Even having this discussion is frankly crazy. And none of the issues in Eastern Europe would be there if the local nationalists wouldn't try to treat Russians as second-class people. Get over it. And EU has to live up to its ideals. And not just talk about them as the article does.

    sydsam, 04 September 2014 4:34pm
    I'm a Russian-speaker from Latvia. I am a citizen, as my ancestors have been living here since the October revolution. But I don't speak Latvian, here is just a spectre of problems I have connected to not speaking the language: I can't get a job unless I speak Latvian to perfection. I can't properly participate in the political life unless I speak Latvian to perfection. I can't raise children in Latvia, because there are no schools that teach in Russian etc.

    Please bear in mind that the majority of population of Latvia at the time of gaining the independence were Russian speakers, hardly a minority. I live in UK now, where I find myself more at home than in the country where I was born and raised. Thanks, NATO!

    sydsam arkley, 04 September 2014 5:09pm

    Well your arrogance doesn't really help your argument. In case you didn't know Latvia was part of Russian Empire and then of the Soviet Union. Modern day Latvia was born on 1991, and this is when the whole language thing came into being. I'm not going to go into depths of how Urban population is structured but only until recently all major Latvian cities including Riga were populated by over 50% with Russian speakers. So no I don't think that the knowledge of Latvian language (or any other language for that matter) should have any advantage or be forced onto population in a modern society. But I guess that is just me.

    Cradyxee sydsam, 04 September 2014 5:10pm

    I don't really think NATO is to blame, but Latvian politicians rather. They use nationalism and enmity towards Russian-speakers to get the support of the electorate.

    And angering the minorities doesn't hurt their ratings, because those minorities are denied the vote. So, pushing anti-Russian agenda is a no-brainer for anyone trying to get votes in Latvia.

    Romanesque dukebluenose, 04 September 2014 5:13pm

    This comment shows that something is not right in Latvia! Any minority in any democratic country should have right to speak their own language, go to schools in their own language etc. This smells of hostility!

    sydsam EdwardMonton, 04 September 2014 5:17pm

    No. I learned English, because it is the most spoken language in the world. It did come in handy once I decided to leave Latvia.

    The big difference between coming to Britain and living in Latvia, is that I didn't immigrate to Latvia, neither did my parents or their parents.

    The society did not have a divide caused by language, now it does. And this divide was forced onto the population. You can see the results of this divide in the Latvian immigration statistics, or even more so in Latvian demographics. Latvia lost more than 1/3 of it's population since 1991. Will lose even more in the years to come.

    arkley -> sydsam, 04 September 2014 5:45pm
    Did Latvian society not have a divide caused by language or did you just not notice it because Latvian speakers had to speak Russian as well? What would a Latvian speaker say?

    There is an interesting parallel with Belgium. For most of modern history French was the dominant language even though more than half the population spoke Flemish. In 1815 the Great Powers expanded the Kingdom of the Netherlands to include Belgium and the French speakers suddenly found that the Flemish speakers had an advantage as their dialect was intelligible to government officials based in Holland. The equality of Flemish with French in legal and government business was one of the gripes that led to the 1830 revolution and breakaway from the Northern Netherlands.

    There then followed a century or more where Flemings who wanted to get on had to speak French but the reverse was not true. However industrial and economic change over the last twenty odd years has reversed the balance and today Flanders is wealthier and economically dominant. And Belgian unity is crumbling because French speakers are not willing to accept they might have to be fluent in Flemish in the way that Flemish speakers always had to be capable in French in the past.

    sydsam -> arkley, 04 September 2014 5:46pm
    Well the first republic was born on 18 November 1918, just to refresh your memory. After 40 000 Latvian Riflemen effectively helped to establish the Soviet State. So in a way, I think Russians should sue Latvia for material losses and moral damages suffered as a result of Soviet occupation of Russia and everything that comes with it. Besides I don't remember Latvia being occupied by the Soviet Union as the incorporation or anschluss, that actually did happen is not the same thing.
    sydsam -> balodis, 04 September 2014 6:02pm
    See Latvian Riflemen comment above. And just as an FYI How many Jews and Russians did Latvian Nazi brigades slaughter during the second world war? Oh yeah it's about 100 000. How many Russians and other nations suffered because of the Soviet State your nation helped to create? Go on, tell me more about barbarism.
    Erik Glantz, 04 September 2014 4:58pm
    This article is pure right wing propaganda.
    No mention of the US military subversion of democracy in Ukraine.
    No mention of the US military subversion on the border of non-enemy Russia.
    No mention of the evidence uniformly pointing to Kiev shooting down the MH17 flight.
    No mention of the complete lack of evidence for any invasion by Russia.
    No mention of the sudden shift of this news source to US right wing propaganda.
    No mention of the deletion of comments on other articles of this news source, which opposed the right wing views at least 4-to-1.
    So this news source now confesses to its opposition to democracy and public debate.
    JaniceK22, 04 September 2014 5:03pm
    I read several interviews with some in the army of Novorossiya and they pretty much explained why they did want Government from Kiev, and why they wanted nothing to do with the EU. They did not want to be part of the EU program of westernization which they feel destroys their civilization. They don't
    support same sex marriage, or state oversight of parents etc. And I don't blame them

    Even in the US I have seen federal laws restrict parental rights and schools attempt to devalue US history, of having to pay for ESL teachers because we fail to control our borders etc.

    Trilbey, 04 September 2014 5:22pm
    News Blackout: The U.S. Media Ignores Putin's Peace Plan

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/news-blackout-the-u-s-media-ignores-putins-peace-plan/5381937

    Extract:

    On Wednesday, Russian President Vladimir Putin made a proposal for ending the violence in Ukraine at an OCSE (Organization for the Cooperation and Security in Europe) in Moscow. Unfortunately, most Americans never heard what he had to say because the media failed to publish his statement. The reason for the omission is fairly obvious, the media doesn't want people to know that Putin is not the ghoulish, authoritarian caricature he's portrayed to be, but a levelheaded pragmatist who wants a swift and peaceful resolution to the crisis. Here is what he said:

    "We think the most important thing now is to launch direct dialogue, genuine, full-fledged dialogue between the Kiev authorities and representatives of southeast Ukraine. This dialogue could give people from southeast Ukraine the chance to see that their lawful rights in Ukraine really will be guaranteed."

    PekkaRoivanen, 04 September 2014 5:31pm
    This is interesting article because it refers to language rights. I live in Finland which is officially bilingual country with Finnish and Swedish the two national languages except on Ahvenanmaa island which has only Swedish. Swedish and Finnish have equal rights in mainland.

    There are about 1 % Swedish speakers, 4 % bilinguals and 95 % Finnish speakers. Finnish speakers must learn Swedish. It is mandatory.

    There is a peoples movement to abolish mandatory Swedish which is often described by its supporters as an attack against minority Swedish speakers.

    According to government language strategy mandatory Swedish is needed because there are too few Swedish speakers to keep Swedish language alive.

    There is a huge contrast to the Baltics and Ukraine and the contrast is interesting.

    evenuglierthanyou, 04 September 2014 5:40pm

    Putin's aggressive territorial demands


    Like kicking Georgia's aggressive arse for them and leaving? Whilst you're at it, show me credible evidence of the involvement of the Russian armed forces (rather than armed Russian volunteers) in Ukraine.

    The Guardian is spreading the neocon narrative at every opportunity, and it really is disappointing.

    Anthony121, 04 September 2014 5:40pm
    Interesting Mr Behr But that is not the view of any of those in the Baltic Republics. And since the US cannot sort out its own problems in this regard according to its black population and takes a very negative view to non-white Israelies etc of the ME then maybe its view on minority rights is actually not worth much?

    In Guatemala its care for the rights of local people consisted of complicity in several massacres.

    And its not what your elitist snobish somewhat pompous self thinks of the rights of these people - its what they think themselves and they do not consider themselves to be treated even marginally fairly

    capatriot, 04 September 2014 5:45pm

    Hmmm. So, according to this author, it is only because they are Nato members that the Baltic states have not been encroached on by Russia? Not because Russia did not want to do so or did not consider it a paramount national security issue? Tell me, how much would the thick ink on the Nato charter the Baltic republics signed be worth is 1000s of Russian tanks DID cross the border and take over the countries in a week? Would Nato truly commit to nuclear war in that case?

    The Nato membership of eastern Euro micro states isn't worth jack. Russia has not molested them unduly mainly because it does not want to, not because it cannot. Russia HAS intervened in Ukraine and previously Georgia because it DOES consider those areas of national interest worthy of the effort.\

    arkley capatriot, 04 September 2014 5:56pm

    A Russian invasion of the Baltics may not bring about a major war, but the risk is there, and the risk of miscalculation even more so. Russia has concluded the risk is not worth the benefits. However the risk of the West doing more than economic sanctions over Ukraine or Georgia is next to zero, hence we see the Russians rearranging the borders.

    capatriot arkley, 04 September 2014 6:04pm

    It's always risk vs benefits for great powers. What I'm saying is that the author's exaltation of Nato membership is foolish and wrong, because, if push ever came to shove, they would be on their own and Russia knows this. The reason they haven't molested them much is because there's no upside to it for Russia. If Putin has learned anything from the USSR, it's that ruling over despondent subject peoples is a drain and should be avoided.

    PavelDragunov, 04 September 2014 5:46pm

    The fortunate ones are the former Warsaw pact members that joined Nato and the European Union

    Is this man deliberately lying or is he just completely ignorant and knows nothing of what he is talking about?

    Bulgaria was almost destroyed by this joining, it can easily disappear altogether as a nation just in 20 – 30 years, because there's no jobs in the country and almost all young people have to migrate to other countries.

    Other ex-Warsaw pact members are doing not too much better. Their industry was destroyed, all their resources were robbed by the west, their young people' only hope is in doing some menial job in Western Europe.

    How this hell and lack of any future can be called "fortunate"?

    edwardrice, 04 September 2014 5:52pm

    Western enthusiasm for February's Maidan revolution and eagerness to deal with the new regime in Kiev is depicted by the Kremlin as a hostile act.

    It was a coup backed by the US and EU spearheaded by Right Sector Neo-Nazis that brought in an ultra-nationalists anti-Russian pro-Nato regime.

    That was a hostile act, so hostile that Ukrainians in the east opposed to the coup took up arms.

    A Russian Chinese backed coup in Mexico would have the US across the border and bombing Mexico city in a second.

    edwardrice, 04 September 2014 6:03pm

    a country that falls under Kremlin tutelage becomes more corrupt and dysfunctional, which is terrible for the people who live there and isn't even good for Russia.

    How were Ukrainian oligarchs who have been looting the country since independence, including recently elected president Poroshenko, under Kremlin tutelage?

    And the economic hell that Russia went through after the end of the Cold War was due to US introduced neo-liberal economic ''reforms''.

    For example Latvia's economy is in a terrible state, it's collapse was caused when the financial bubble burst in 2008. Wasn't the world-wide economic meltdown due to a corrupt and dysfunctional banking system?

    Celtiberico, 04 September 2014 6:23pm

    There were many voices seeking to deny the Balts that security. The argument then was much like today's calls for soothing of Russian tempers over Ukraine: the west, giddy with cold war triumphalism, is provoking the bear by setting up shop on the borders of his den, leaving him no choice but to lash out. There is a grain of truth and a dollop of delusion in that account. Moscow never needed the slightest provocation to undermine the sovereignty and viability of bordering states whose legitimacy it always denied. It did, however, know to back off when the west made clear it counted eastern Europe's fledgling democracies as friends. Friends they would defend.

    I would suggest that the correct proportion is a dollop of truth and a grain of delusion when you remember that in the past 4 centuries Russia has been invaded by Poles (twice), Swedes, French, Germans (twice), British and French together, and on one occasion, just about the whole international community...

    tovarish, 04 September 2014 6:32pm
    I have several friends and work mates of Russian heritage from various parts of the former USSR and many tell a rather different story.

    One from Estonia told me that despite being born and raised in Estonia after independence and speaking fluent Estonian (and Russian) that fact he's 'a Russian' means in reality he will always be a second class citizen. He said that Russian Estonians are given a special grey 'Alien' passport regardless of how long they have lived in Estonia, and they have to pass various tests to obtain a full Estonian passport. The Estonian do not have to do this. He then said that even if they do qualify for a full passport they will never be accepted equals. He got so sick of this that he immigrated to the UK and on getting his British citizenship he renounced his Estonian citizenship and vowed "never to go back to that fucking country ever again'.

    Anyone remember the bronze solder riots a few years ago?

    I told the above to some Latvian friends who said that Russian Latvians are also routinely (unofficially) discriminated against.

    Finally while travelling in Western Ukraine a few years ago I saw a number of monuments with obvious anti Russian overtones. Later I went I went into a shop and asked in broken Russian for some chocolates. Despite clearly being a foreigner, the shop assistant refused to serve me if I spoke in Russian and not Ukrainian. She could not speak English but I think she understood me when I told her to "Fuck off".

    If I was a Russian I would feel threatened and discriminated against too.

    Veltatecla, 04 September 2014 6:37pm
    Being denied full citizenship is serious stuff but Mr Behr merely mentions it fleetingly. My mother was Latvian, taken out of Riga in cattle trucks by the occupying Nazis in 1943 and spent the next two years in the hell of Polish labour camps. Upon liberation she was denied re entry to Latvia by the occupying Soviets and didn't return to Riga from Britain til independence when she was an old lady. What she found was a Riga full of hatred for who she saw as just old people like her, forced there by resettlement programmes and now stranded. She had every right to hate both the occupiers but had got over that years ago, what disturbed her was still the obvious signs of right wing extremists that had kicked her out in the first place. In the years since independence a new generation has grown up, one that has read the history and yet still supports the annual march through the streets of Riga of the extreme right who have hijacked the national celebrations and purport to just be supporting the soldiers who fought against the Soviets by joining the Nazi brigades. There are tensions, they are nasty and the Baltics are not immune from the old ideology of right wing politics. Call them nazi, call them defenders, they are unpleasant and the ethnic Russians are their target. God forbid that Putin should make moves on the Baltics, I'm half Latvian and love the country, but you can't just brush the bad away by ignoring it.
    mpalmond, 04 September 2014 7:04pm
    Good to see a Guardian contributor cool with requiring people born of parents, even grandparents, born in a country have to pass tests to achieve citizenship because their forebears (no pun!) were not born on its sacred soil. What if the UK adopted that model? Sure it would be a nicer earner for the privatized examiners but hardly conducive to community relations. For anybody concerned with the ethics of the language exams in Latvia remember how Steve Bush - brother of GW and son GHW - and Boris Berezovsky were snuffling around Riga looking for educational contracts. As for Estonia: its schoolchildren are taught that the Belgian Nazi, Leon Degrelle's Waffen SS unit's "defence" of their land against the Red Army was "magnificent" Behr might like to visit the EU-funded restoration of the Waffen SS positions around Silimae (or the decrepit when not destroyed monuments to the victims of the Holocaust or anti-Nazi partisans) it might help to understand why not only Russians feel uncomfortable about our new NATO allies' nasty nostalgia for the Nazi shadow over their past.
    BeatonTheDonis, 04 September 2014 7:05pm

    I flag up this case study because the plight of Russian-speakers in Ukraine is the chief grievance justifying Kremlin intervention, ostensibly protecting its ethno-linguistic diaspora from monstrous fascists in Kiev.

    Can we take this clumsy sarcasm as tacit support for Pravy Sektor and Svoboda?

    edwardrice -> BeatonTheDonis, 04 September 2014 7:29pm
    Don't worry, they are moderate Neo-Nazis, like the ''moderate'' jihadis the CIA armed in Syria.
    TrueUkrainian, 04 September 2014 7:14pm
    "The rigours of Nato and EU accession forced nationalist governments to furnish these minorities with basic rights and devise routes to integration."

    It looks like they have utterly failed in their mission (even if they tried, as author suggests).

    One of the basic human rights is that not to be stateless or without citizenship. To this day, there are thousands of people in Latvia who lived there when the country became independent, worked and paid tax, yet denied this basic right (effectively stateless, bearing "non-citizen" passport) without taking language and history exam (the level of knowledge demanded is above that of average ethnic Latvian).

    Interestingly, there are even ethnic latvians in this group who are denied citizenship on the basis of political belonging and deeds of their patents (so called Red Shooters, who supported communists at the time).

    Secondly, independence of Baltic states is purely nominal. Their economic policy is dictated by EU and IMF and they only free as long as they support US foreign policy. Economic growth over the last 10 years was worse than that of Russia and they suffered badly in the last recession.

    I lived in Latvia for 2 years.

    shpuntik, 04 September 2014 8:18pm
    It is just enough to pay visit to the main Estonian news portal in Russian rus.delfi.ee and read comments to understand how anti-EU, anti-NATO the Estonian Russians are. Two decade of EU membership failed to convince them. And to be honest. Those NATO forces are in place not to counter Russia but to swiftly crush the local Russian minorities if needed.
    mpalmond, 04 September 2014 8:45pm
    Since the Baltic States are held up by Obama, Cameron et al. as a model for a "post-Maidan" Ukraine, should we be surprised that Russians in the east are not happy at the prospect of being asked to prove their right to citizenship in the country where they were born? The West used to be led by clever conservatives trying to undermine the Kremlin, but seeing Obama and Cameron cooing to be in the family photo with the plump Komsomol woman from Lithuania as well as children of Nazi collaborators from elsewhere in the New Europe made one realise that the new NATO loves everyone from the ex-Nazi to the ex-Communist, but doesn't have the hots for someone who was never totalitarian! America in the 1950s was against people who were "prematurely anti-Fascist", now it is against the "posthumously anti-Nazi."
    tovarish, 04 September 2014 8:58pm
    The author of this piece has clearly allowed idealism to cloud reality.

    "Baltic Russians are not – as the Kremlin would like to depict them – a victimised minority suffering under an apartheid regime".

    I know have mentioned this already but does the author want to tell us about the routine discrimination of ethnic Russians in the Baltic states. How about telling us about the grey 'Alien' passports issued to Estonians of Russian heritage, who have to pass various tests to qualify for full citizenship regardless of whether they were born there or how long they have lived there. Estonian do not have to do this. Equal my a***.

    "a country that falls under Kremlin tutelage becomes more corrupt and dysfunctional".

    Does the author seriously think that Ukraine is not already riddled with corruption and economically bankrupt. Can anybody name a Ukrainian public figure not tainted by corruption scandals?

    Listening to many western politicians I get the impression that to be an accepted and 'good' country that is part of the gang you need to be subservient to the USA.

    Is this why Cuba and Russia are outsiders? Please advise.

    esevato, 04 September 2014 9:06pm
    The Latvian (or any other) government should not have the right to impose any citizenship restrictions on people (and their descendants) who have lived there since before the country's independence.

    The government should be for the people and not people for the government. Ethnic Russians (and others) should be able to keep their language and culture. If they can get along in society without learning Latvian their government should not have the right to force them!

    We are talking about Europe where different languages and cultures have existed side by side.

    America is a different kind of animal altogether. People are coming here willingly to accept the common language and at least some of the common culture. Comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges.

    tiye60, 04 September 2014 9:15pm
    By coincidence I saw earlier today a comment by a Russian-speaking Baltic states resident (need I say, stateless) mocking the others for their letter to Obama (to coincide with his visit to Estonia) on the rights of the non-citizens, since, as the guy wrote, the previous petition to the US president on the same question did not bring any results, i.e. any particular improvements to their status or lives.

    LimaCPapa, 04 September 2014 9:20pm

    "Eastern Ukrainians are not so lucky." - I take this as a tacit admission that Eastern Ukrainians do indeed suffer discrimination. I know through academic contacts that they are not even allowed to use their Russian names on documents, a bit of petty oppression that causes significant resentment, especially when combined with the widespread view that they are nothing but stupid cattle. Many Western commentators betray this view as well.

    JohnR, 05 September 2014 1:27am
    An article in the FT earlier this year pointed out that when Ukraine and Belarus became independent they had roughly the same GDP per capita. However Ukraine then worked at this, and was able to reduce its GDP per capita to 50% of teh Belarus figure at the time of writing. Transparency.org suggests that Ukraine is 144/177 in its political corruption index, while Russia is 120th; hard to believe, I know, but Ukraine makes Russia look fairly straight.

    As the Ukraine crisis blew up Henry Kissinger, writing in the Washington Post,, suggested that what the West should do was to ask what would be inthe best interest of Ukraine's citizens. At this stage there was no evidence that Russia was doing anything untoward, but the US and the UK were very quick to blame Russia for what ever was happening; Russia remains the great Nato scapegoat, I'm afraid, whatever the facts of the case may be.

    The OSCE has been monitoring events in Ukraine, and have documented a number of cases of persistent shelling of civilian targets in Donetsk and Luhansk, in particular. Their reports (find them on twitter) seem to imply that this was the work of the Ukraine military.

    While it's now clear that Russia has been acting very like a 19th C imperial power, it's hard to excuse the behaviour of the (informally elected) Ukrainian government either .They're as bad as one another, I'm afraid.

    Rozina , 05 September 2014 1:42am

    Russia isn't the only former communist country in eastern Europe to flunk the transition to democracy, but it is the biggest and the most dangerous. The fortunate ones are the former Warsaw pact members that joined Nato and the European Union, a process that demanded political, economic and social reforms which, while clearly no panacea, worked better for people in states that tried them than in states that didn't.

    Well of course political, economic and social reforms would not work in countries that don't adopt them.

    Anyway let's see how the political, economic and social reforms demanded by the process of joining the EU and NATO have benefited various eastern European countries:

    - Estonia: in 2012, 18.7% of Estonians were living in relative poverty and 7.3% in absolute poverty: that is 25% of the country's population; in 2013, Estonia had the highest number of people struggling to pay their fuel bills in Europe.

    - Latvia: in 2012, 703,000 people (about 35% of the total population) were at risk of living in poverty or suffering from social exclusion, with the highest risk groups being single-parent families and households with two parents and several children.

    - Lithuania: 20.6% of Lithuanians were living below a threshold at which they risk living in poverty in 2013, this percentage being higher than the 18.6% reported in 2012.

    - Poland: relative poverty in 2011 is about the same or a bit below what it was in 2001 and people in rural areas, women and households with children are at high risk of living in poverty

    - Slovakia: second poorest member of the eurozone in 2011

    In the meantime, Russia's economy wasn't doing too badly from 2000 to 2012 despite not carrying out necessary political, economic and social "reforms".

    MediaBSWatch, 05 September 2014 3:41am
    "Journalist" Behr has arrogance to speak for hundreds of thousands non-citizens in Baltic states how lucky they are... What a BS!
    I remember that rabid nationalism, which started in 1988. Very quickly it became rasism and nazism. Normal people almost overnight became like zombies with only one idea in their dead brains: "Latvia! Latvia! Uber alles!" They even started asking about my genetics! Very soon I was Russian pig, who will be hanging from lamppost.
    Only for 3 days in august of 1991, when soviet troops occupied Latvia during unseccesfull putsch against Gorbachev, I was "Russian brothers and sisters! let's fight together against criminal communist regim!" in leaflet from my postbox.
    Than came "independence", I was russian pig and untermensch again... No sitizenship, no rights, no job, no heat and hot water in my fully paid off private apartment, which wasn't my private property any more, because I was "occupant'.
    And I see the same mass hesteria of nationalism in Ukraine! Russians are untermensch with mongoloid bood and "Moskolyku na Gilyaku!" (Hang the Russian!). And the "civilized" West is applouding again this madness..!

    BDW, Baltic states got their "independence" from bolshevic regime, when nobody in the World that time recognized it. How it is legitimate..?

    Rum Pa, 05 September 2014 5:42am
    2014-09-04 State Department Daily Press Briefing

    QUESTION: All right. So yesterday Jen was asked about these military exercises that you guys are doing with the Ukrainians.

    MS. HARF: Yes, mm-hmm.

    QUESTION: And she talked about how they would contribute to peace and regional stability and build confidence, et cetera. I'm just curious why you believe that considering what you have said about Russian military exercises in Russia with the Russian military on its own soil, and you talked about how those were provocative and not helpful to the situation. So --

    MS. HARF: Two points on that if you want me to start there, or do you have more?

    QUESTION: Yeah, I just want to know what's – why --

    MS. HARF: What's different?

    QUESTION: Why are your military exercises good and contributing to stability and Russian military exercises are bad and prevocational?

    MS. HARF: Because we're not undertaking armed intervention into other countries. We haven't taken escalatory actions using our military. These exercises are annual. They're pre-planned. They are not being held in response to current events. And I think that should speak for itself.

    ....

    QUESTION: You would agree that Ukraine is unsettled, right, at the moment, to say the least?

    MS. HARF: I think unsettled --

    QUESTION: It's not a normal situation in Ukraine.

    MS. HARF: Because another country has undertaken an armed intervention, which by definition means if that country takes – undertakes exercises, they are seen in a very different context than when NATO does.

    ...

    QUESTION: -- is it wise to stage a military exercise in a country that you say is at war with its much larger neighbor?

    MS. HARF: Again, these are exercises that are done on an annual basis that we believe are incredibly important to demonstrate our commitment and our resolve to stand side-by-side our partners in their defense. And we've said that this is why they're so important. They are not in response to recent events. And again, we aren't the ones who have taken escalatory military action; Russia has. So our exercises should be seen in drastically different context given the recent past of both of these different sides of this conflict here.

    QUESTION: Right, but the Russian troops – the Russian exercises that you criticized, this is quite apart from the allegations of sending troops across the border.

    ...

    QUESTION: Well, okay. But if – but you say that they're escalatory and that their exercises are provocative. Why is it wrong for the Russians to say that your exercises are provocative?

    MS. HARF: Because nothing we've done have been provocative throughout this entire conflict, and everything they've done has been. Again, it's a convenient propaganda talking point, but it's not based in reality --

    Inversnaid, 05 September 2014 7:35am
    This article really is a disgrace - like those absurd adverts that went up recently celebrating 25 years of Polish "freedom". The truth is that life for even Non-russian speakers in the Baltics is still far from easy with low wages, high prices and endemic unemployment. As one Estonian woman said to me recently "In communist times we couldn't travel. Now we can't stay at home." She had a four year old son being cared for by grandparents. If the EU had created some sort of nirvana in Poland and the Baltics Behr might have a point. But rather than trying to address these serious problems it choses to waste its time and resources making a bad situation worse in Ukraine. Everyone knows that there is no prospect of Ukrainian accession in the near future. The Europeans - and their cheerleaders in the press like Behr and Garton-Ash (are they the same person?) - are just playing games.
    david119, 05 September 2014 7:47am
    Would Raphael Behr support a compulsory English language test for Welsh speakers to be able to vote or gain a British passport ?
    Of course he wouldn't. So if such a thing is not acceptable in this member of the EU and NATO why is it acceptable in Latvia (another member of the EU and NATO ) ? Putin couldn't take advantage of the situation if the situation wasn't completely unacceptable. Saying that Russian speakers have a better life in the Baltic States sounds uncomfortably close to the argument that Black Africans had a better life under Apartheid South Africa. NO Raphael, economic well being is not enough ALL people in a democracy should have the right to vote, get a passport or work in a government job. Russian speakers have existed for centuries in the Baltic States and they are fully entitled to the same human rights as the majority population.

    Ethnic Latvians and ethnic Russians fought alongside each other for independence from the Soviet Union
    Alla Berezovska is one of roughly 300,000 so-called "non-citizens" in Latvia. She is not allowed to vote, nor to hold public office. She's also not allowed to work for the police or the fire brigade.
    "There are now two societies living alongside each other in this country: the Latvian and the Russian," she says. "But it can't be right that the Latvians get to tell everyone what language our children are supposed to learn, which festival days are celebrated, and which aren't." (DW.de)

    childofmine, 05 September 2014 7:51am
    Behr's piece is regurgitating the old 'Putin and the Soviet Empire' tosh. What was it Goebbels said...ah yes: "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." Quite apt, given that Washington-backed nazis are running Kiev!
    Keo2008 -> childofmine, 05 September 2014 8:55am

    Washington-backed nazis are running Kiev!

    Ah, this is actually a much better example of a Goebbels-type Big Lie.

    Anthony121 -> Keo2008, 05 September 2014 1:29pm
    It is an exageration, but the BBC itself has recordings of Ukrainian Government militia claiming they wanted to "hunt" Bolshevists and jews.

    Another Swedish volunteer claims he is there to "fight for the white man". These do not seem like liberal democrats to me.

    malamulele, 05 September 2014 7:53am
    The OSCE has had to intervene in the Baltic states since the mid-90s precisely because of discrimination against people of Russian origin or Russian language speakers. Spend any time in Estonia and you'll see a lot of anti-Russian feeling that gets expressed in official behaviour.

    "...grievances over citizenship..." are part of a bigger problem. Sure, it's not apartheid, but things don't have to be as bad as that to be bad. It's like saying Roma in the UK have nothing to complain about because it's not like it was in Nazi Germany.

    physiocrat, 05 September 2014 7:57am
    I have visited both Estonia and Latvia. The main issue in both countries is their poor economic performance. A few people are doing well but most seem not to be. The agricultural sector is apparently in good shape with large numbers of owner-occupied smallholdings, a relic of a land distribution in Soviet times. A few people also recovered property siezed by the Soviets in 1938; if you were not a descendant of someone who was expropriated you got nothing. The public sector is under-funded due to the weakness of the tax base.

    It is clear that the Russians in the two countries have been getting a bad deal. In the former country there is a language test required for citizenship. Apart from being unjust, it is short-sighted, since had the Russians been given automatic citizenship, many would have emigrated to other EU countries and the problem would have literally gone away.

    The situation in Latvia is different. Younger Russians have emigrated. The second city, Daugavpils, is mostly Russian, but the main industries closed down, leaving a core of older people who have nothing to do.

    The EU should have pressed these countries to address these isssues long ago as a condition of membership. They have sown the seed of trouble for themselves, quite unnecessarily.

    Keo2008, 05 September 2014 9:01am
    I suspect Mr. Behr overrates the freedom enjoyed by ethnic Russians in the Baltic states. Plenty of posts BTL provide evidence that they do suffer discrimination.

    Nevertheless, this article is a useful antidote to the usual articles denouncing NATO and the Ukrainian government whilst praising Putin's Russia as a model of democracy and fair play.

    [Sep 04, 2014] Far from keeping the peace, Nato is a threat to it by Seumas Milne

    This type the number of typical responses points to considerable success of MSM brainwashing as the title of the article attracts certain type of commenters ;-). Skeptical voices were few and between. But they do exist. Still propaganda did what it was required by Western financial elite. The essence of elite politics was the best formulated by Hermann Goering, President of the Reichstag, Nazi Party, and Luftwaffe Commander in Chief
    Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
    Sep 03, 2014 | The Guardian | Jump to comments (697)

    But the "biggest prize", as the head of US-funded National Endowment for Democracy put it last year, was ethnically divided Ukraine. After the EU made its military-linked association agreement with Ukraine exclusive of a Russian deal – and Ukraine's corrupt but elected president, who refused to sign it, was overthrown in a US-backed coup by any other name – it was scarcely paranoid for Russia to see the takeover of the neighbouring state as a threat to its core interests.

    Six months on, Moscow-backed eastern Ukrainian resistance to the Nato-backed nationalists in Kiev has become full-scale war. Thousands have died and human rights abuses have multiplied on both sides, as government troops and their irregular auxiliaries bombard civilian areas and abduct, detain and torture suspected separatists on a mass scale.

    The Ukrainian forces backed by western governments include groups such as the neo-Nazi Azov battalion, whose symbol is the wartime Nazi stormtroopers' wolf's hook. The increasingly repressive Kiev regime is now attempting to ban the Ukrainian communist party, which won 13% of the vote at the last parliamentary elections.

    But then Nato, whose members have often included fascist governments in the past, has never been too fussy about democracy. Evidence for its claims that Russian troops have invaded eastern Ukraine is also thin on the ground. Arms supplies and covert intervention in support of the Donbass rebels – including special forces and state-backed irregulars – are another matter.

    But that's exactly what Nato powers such as the US, Britain and France have been busy doing all over the world for years, from Nicaragua to Syria and Somalia. The idea that Russia has invented a new form of "hybrid warfare" in Ukraine is bizarre.

    Selected Comments

    Babeouf, 03 September 2014 8:49pm

    Yes this story makes a change . But doesn't represent a change of heart by either the Guardian or any other of the publications in the US's European colonies. They are all in favor of some degree of US imperialism. light or otherwise with torture ,secret prisons universal spying on every citizen as indispensable for 'the Preservation of Western values'. Its all getting very 1984 ish. And I expect it to get much as the eclipse of the West becomes public knowledge.
    johhnybgood, 03 September 2014 8:40pm
    NATO is nothing more than a tool of the US. It was conceived as a deterrent to war, and has now become a threat to world peace.
    Whatever the outcome of this week's conference, NATO will remain an anachronism past its sell by date. A waking world is seeing through the propaganda, and is no longer buying the West's version of events in Ukraine.
    Putin has put forward a number of diplomatic plans to end the conflict; all have been rejected by Kiev (US) - Kiev has been ordered to finish the job in Donetsk and Lugansk. The US does not want peace in Ukraine.
    DCarter, 03 September 2014 8:45pm
    NATO is the excuse for the continued occupation by the USA of bases in the UK. Russia is notthreatening to invade the UK, even teh USSR never did so. So why do the Americans need bases here?
    sammer -> DCarter, 03 September 2014 9:21pm
    NATO is the excuse for the continued occupation by the USA of bases in the UK. Russia is notthreatening to invade the UK, even teh USSR never did so. So why do the Americans need bases here?

    In case the UK electorate do a Pinochet and elect the wrong kind of leader? DCarter -> sammer, 04 September 2014 10:16am

    In case the UK electorate do a Pinochet and elect the wrong kind of leader?

    Pinochet was the right kind of leader, for the Anericans that is. Allende was the wrong kind of leader, hence he was killed.

    johnandanne, 03 September 2014 8:41pm
    Seumas Milne - a well written assessment of what NATO really stands for -
    war and dis-harmony and never even pretending to tell the truth.
    kenlinuk, 03 September 2014 8:43pm
    Good article. It is nice to see some objective reporting on a very serious issue. Too many are happy to cheer on the hard-liners and warmongers without thought of the consequences -- our Prime Minister and government are the fore with their thoughtless outbursts, sad to say. The EU is not innocent in the matter of toppling Ukraine's government either. With the appointment of Donald Tusk to a position of power, and having heard the rhetoric from those who would have us believe that Russia intends to attack conquer Europe -- it seems likely to me that the Europe could easily be drawn into war in circumstances not dissimilar to those that precipitated the great war. NATO and the EU have become dangerously expansionist, to a point where the leaders are willing to risk not only the economies of Europe, but also the safety of Europe.
    geniusofmozart, 03 September 2014 8:45pm
    Another good article, but unfortunately people won't listen once their thoughts have been molded by the mainstream media.

    It was indeed NATO who started this conflict by violating the agreement not to expand eastwards and by giving Ukraine an ultimatum, through the EU, to either be with the EU or be with Russia.

    When the democratically elected leader of Ukraine went for Russia, NATO countries supported a violent coup and, instead of waiting for elections, as German and Russian foreign ministers agreed, they unconstitutionally removed Yanukovych.

    And, while the Ukrainian separtists have certainly broken international humanitarian law, NATO countries are supporting a government which is indiscriminately bombing and shelling its towns and cities, arresting Russian journalists and sending neo-Nazi militias to fight in Eastern Ukraine.

    This is, of course, in addition to its wars in Libya and Kosovo, which each served to instigate regime change to effect deregulation of the markets, and resulted in murderous militas controlling the former country and the ethnic cleansing of 850,000 Kosovar Albanians in the latter.

    nestormakhno73, 03 September 2014 8:40pm

    to wage unilateral war, from Yugoslavia

    So you agree with the camps and mass rapes in Bosnia Seamus? You condone the massacres in Vukovar and Srebrenica?

    These would not have happened if NATO or the UN had not listened to the appeasers and idiots at the beginning of the Yugoslav war

    capatriot -> nestormakhno73, 03 September 2014 10:30pm
    It was a civil war. There were atrocities and war crimes on ALL sides. Painting one side as the devil helps no one and gets us more Iraqs and indeed Ukraines.
    Carl Jones, 03 September 2014 8:46pm
    Seumas, you can't look at this in isolation. Russia is a BRIC and they are decoupling from the bankrupt West. This means the US dollar is in huge trouble and the BRICS won't be bankrolling the bankrupt US and UK!!!

    IF the West had the money...which they don't, it would take NATO 5 to 10 years to get anywhere near matching Russian military might. Russian combat tanks (20,000) out number the EU by more than 4 to 1.

    Given that diverting spending during "austerity" (social engineering) would be very unpopular and could prove a tipping point for social unrest.

    [Sep 04, 2014] The Guardian view on Nato's choices in Ukraine and the Middle East

    theguardian.com | Jump to comments (218)
    BarneyQ -> RosalinaChalmers, 03 September 2014 8:31pm
    NATO countries gave birth to Isis with their illegal invasion.

    Turkey a NATO country partitioned and occupied a European country, turkey to this day supports this illegal entity.

    Turkey facilitates the ISIS.

    NATO countries lied to the Security council then took sides in Libya.

    NATO illegally partitioned Serbia

    NATO has operated and probably still does operate a global torture network.

    This same NATO is now huffing and puffing for what can only be hypocritical reasons.

    igotthetaser -> PietPompies66, 03 September 2014 8:30pm
    > And what IS Iraq now?
    Ruined by American invasion country.
    When H. Clinton were asked about that, she said: "Iraq war was worth it".
    I wish that bitch to be cold and dead among the Iraqi peaceful people killed by US (including her personally) will for nothing.
    Oh, it's not nothing, it's all about oil.

    As people joke:
    CNN: Monday. Scientists found oil under Antarctic ice.
    CNN: Tuesday. NATO wants to liberate Antarctic region and to end penguins' dictatorship.

    Avenos, 03 September 2014 8:19pm
    NATO bombed Yugoslavia (Serbia) in 1999. Remember Kosovo?
    Tacty -> Avenos, 03 September 2014 8:21pm
    you know, cnn said it was genocide so it must be true...cnn never lies, as well as other western media...they are all for piece in the world and they dont like to be warmongers...
    qwertboi, 03 September 2014 8:31pm
    Bad editorials based on bad intelligence producing bad propaganda.

    "We saw no credible evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq then - we see no credible evidence of a Russian invasion now.

    "Photos can be worth a thousand words - they can also deceive. We have considerable experience collecting, analysing and reporting on all kinds of satellite and other imagery, as well as other kinds of intelligence.

    "Suffice it to say that the images released by Nato on August 28 provide a very flimsy basis on which to charge Russia with invading Ukraine."

    In an open letter to German Chancellor Angela Merkel, veteran US intelligence professionals urge her not to be swayed by dodgy evidence into backing conflict with Russia

    Forthestate, 03 September 2014 8:32pm
    It seems NATO can expand its sphere of influence without limit - a North Atlantic alliance currently operating in Afghanistan, for example - but any attempt to resist its advances, as in eastern Ukraine, where the majority appear to favour secession from Kiev, even if they don't want to be absorbed by Russia, is classified as aggression. It seems that freedom to choose is only an expression of democracy as long as you choose NATO.
    qwertboi -> Forthestate, 03 September 2014 9:04pm

    It seems that freedom to choose is only an expression of democracy as long as you choose NATO.

    And its concomitant agents of control - the World Bank and IMF loans (as facilitated and enabled by the EU and its soon to be implemented TTIP).

    The 1% now control everything - the content of the papers you read and the policies your democratically elected government pursues.

    Forthestate -> qwertboi, 03 September 2014 9:06pm
    Exactly. NATO is neo-liberalism's enforcer.
    HolyInsurgent -> Forthestate, 04 September 2014 4:28am
    @Forthestate -

    NATO is neo-liberalism's enforcer.

    Agreed. But NATO is not the only one. That is only one aspect of enforcement: military.

    Neoliberalism is not just a mere economic ideology (as its apologists would like us to think) but the driving engine of the convergence of institutions, an entire philosophy. I see it as both the cause of and the convergence of institutions itself. Each facet is mutually enforcing of an ideology which runs counter to humanity's own long term interests. Religion is not always but can be used for destructive ends or maintaining obsolete beliefs or privilege (e.g. House of Lords) simply because they are traditional.

    Big Brother=Neoliberalism=The Market (Financial Branch: corporate plutocracy, all financial institutions up to World Bank and IMF)=The Party (Political Branch: neoliberal governments)=Enforcement (Law Branch: police local to national, Military Industrial Complex [including NATO], court system and Beliefs Branch: education system, compromised science [disinformation], The Media/PROLEFEED [brainwashing and propaganda function], neoliberal thinktanks, lobbyists, bond rating agencies, religion [tribal beliefs and mythological narrative])

    kennyboy, 03 September 2014 8:36pm
    If the Ukranians can find a long term settlement against the wishes of Washington and their own fascists, there will be an awful lot of people with egg on their faces, including politicians and editors of the national press.

    There are signs, most noticeably at the BBC, but also at the Graun that the media are rowing back from a position that has been ludicrously counter factual, but the politicians are still pushing an impossibilist agenda, in order to get political backing from their populations, to extend American hegemony up to Russia's borders.

    It seems obvious that there is now a political battle between Poreshenko and whoever his backers are and Yats, who is "our"man, according to Nuland. Poreshenko's position is perilous, but if public opinion in Ukraine has turned against the war on its own citizens, his position may survive.

    kennyboy -> CoinneachCathalBoid, 03 September 2014 9:54pm
    I take it that you have no memory before 2014. Before Maidan, there was plenty of discussion in the media about the dangers of the various fascist and ultra nationalist groups in Kyiv. This was, of course before they became vital to the power games of Washington.

    Unless you truly believe that western Ukranian opinion is absolutely 100% is of the same mind, then you must admit that there are different strands of opinion in the country. At the last election involving the whole country, they elected a crooked oligarch, just like all the other crooked oligarchs who have run Ukraine for their own benefit, but they did not vote for fascism. When Poreshenko was elected by Western Ukraine, the share of the vote for the Fascist and ultra nationalist parties was pitiful and yet by some magic process, they retained powerful positions in government, while the parliament has been dissolved as it didn't support the ultra right attempt to call the defenders of Donbass terrorists.

    Dissolving parliament because it was acting as an opposition to Right sector and the other rightists and banning opposition political parties seems a pretty fascist thing to me.

    Арарат Абдулхаков, 03 September 2014 9:23pm
    the recipe for creating the Russian troops:

    come to big city and every day it fired 3 times a day: after Breakfast, lunch and dinner from mortars, cannons, rocket launchers, aiming preferably in residential neighborhoods. After 3-4 months of shelling the city from out of nowhere appears the Russian army.

    Why Russian? Everything is simple. Everyone knows that the dead child, the wife of the dissected fragments, parents buried alive under the rubble, destroyed the house - all of this nonsense and it doesn't matter, it cannot separate the true patriots. Therefore, the army, which appears after the shelling of cities, consists exclusively of Russians, at least so says Kiev.

    umut gezer, 03 September 2014 9:29pm
    The guardian editors suggest "we should arm the junta army". what do they mean by "we"? Who is "we"? Fucking disgrace!
    RosalinaChalmers, 03 September 2014 9:43pm
    Guardian says: "Arming up the Ukrainians is possible and perhaps should be done".

    And I ask, to what end? More shelling and killing innocent civilians? Or to de-stabilize Russia in a proxy war on it's border? Because that would be an interesting goal for NATO, now wouldn't it?

    Carl Jones, 03 September 2014 9:52pm

    Okay....I admit that I have not ready this article....no point, because it assumes that NATO and the NWO have options.

    They don't. This is about the very bedrock of the West...its about the survival of the NY/City axis. This is about the very survival of Amerika and the UK as going concerns.

    Russia and the BRICS are decoupling...They are walking away from the US dollar, they are refusing to pay the US extortion money, they won't be propping up the bankrupt US economy any longer...This is why they have it in for Putin.

    Tacty, 03 September 2014 10:27pm
    hard to argue...

    http://www.salon.com/2014/01/09/the_top_4_threats_to_global_peace_guess_who_is_number_one_partner/

    AndreiLiberec, 03 September 2014 10:34pm

    "It is a matter of picking out the precise bit of military power, or the precise bit of political manoeuvring"

    Surely, there shouldn't be an "or" in that sentence. Please replace with an "and".

    "In Ukraine, Nato countries see a former partner becoming an adversary"

    Their own fault. Not least the new Russophobic Nato-countries (yes, I'm looking at you, Poland and Lithuania).

    The expansion of Nato in the 90's and 00's might very well result in the demise or at least watering down of the alliance. Western Europe will hardly go to war for a cocky Baltic republic who's picking a fight with Russia (compare with Saakashvili's bullish Georgia 2008, believing the West would come to his aid; a glorious naivety made even more spectacular by the fact the he was the one who started the war).

    RocketSurgeon, 03 September 2014 10:37pm
    I disagree with this article. Ukraine attacked its own people after the eastern regions voted to become autonomous, within a Federal State of Ukraine. Its obvious that its own Army was not a willing butcher of its own people, and so many volunteers, including Neo Nazis were recruited from many NATO nations. So this whole mess was created by Ukraine, not Russia.
    Ukraine has consistently resisted talks with the Pro-Russian Rebels. Till the Ukraine Army and its volunteers were routed on the Weekend. It seems more than 1,000 Ukraine soldiers were killed in these battles. Now the Ukraine Government have been told to face reality by NATO and the Eu and the US. I suspect that promises were made, and have since been withdrawn on the basis of Putin putting his foot down, and drawing the red line.
    The US and NATO only attack weak countries with obsolete equipment. So I don't expect NATO or the US to attack Russia anytime soon.
    As for ISIS, this was created, funded and trained by the US to fight in Libya and Syria. When Syria started to win, they went to Iraq. If the US were serious about ISIS, they would have been destroyed by now, and would have stopped been supplied and funded. So this is another fake war IMO.
    I expect Putin to again put his foot down if/when the US says it "wants to bomb targets" in Syria.
    fansince76, 03 September 2014 11:12pm
    Pity poor NATO, well that's enough of that load of horlicks.
    NATO spends a trillion bucks a year on defence spending, more than all the other military budgets of the world. They represent nearly a billion people.
    This editorial would like to present this over budgeted, warmongering bunch of lunatics as poor!
    NATO cannot find any evidence of a Russian invasion since February of this year, but want us to take their word for it!
    Fogh Rasmussen told his Danish parliament that he KNEW there were WMD's in Iraq, now he is telling us that there are Russian ground forces in Ukraine.

    Why doesn't the editorial team ask him about that lie?

    Afraid he will point out how many invasions you printed were happening, without any of it being true?

    suzi, 03 September 2014 11:53pm
    Recently I made some comment that ideally it would be good for our country to be on friendly terms with both Russia and the Ukraine and that I wasn't convinced that Mr Putin really resembled Hitler. So I was told that I was naive and a Putin supporter, which I am not.

    Amongst all the accusations and counter-accusations, trolling and accusations of trolling, one thing seems clear; that the US supported a coup against an admittedly not-very-nice Ukrainian Government and the installation of a different not-very-nice Ukrainian Government. If this is so, then I have to ask, what gave the US the right to intervene in another country's affairs in this way? And is it then so surprising that Putin has reacted as he has done, given that he's the sort of person that he seems to be and given that a significant proportion of Ukrainians seem to want to align themselves with Russia? (And a significant proportion don't. Not justifying, just giving a reason.) Shouldn't we be trying to help find a solution rather than making threats and slapping on sanctions?

    Some while back, John Pilger wrote an article suggesting that the US actually wanted a war with Russia. So the ideological conflict of the Cold War wasn't really so ideological but like all wars was about power and control? Who'd have thunk it? So the US wants more bases in Eastern Europe to deter a possible Russian threat? Well, perhaps they could save a bit of money by removing the ones that are still here in Britain nearly 70 years after the end of WWII. The ones that a US general once with commendable frankness, described as 'expendable.'

    NotoBlair -> suzi, 03 September 2014 11:59pm
    Kremlinspeak
    HAL911 -> NotoBlair, 04 September 2014 12:23am
    washingtonspeak
    JiminNH -> NotoBlair, 04 September 2014 3:13am
    While you cheer those statistics, I note that the US Federal Reserve, the Bank of England and ECB are still on multi-year programs of quantitative easening (ie. printing money as fast as they can hit their computer keys) to prop up their banking system, causing new bubbles on the stock and real property markets, while the EU is in a deepening recession caused by the residue of the 2008 banking crisis combined with the sanctions and the tensions arising from Ukraine situation. In case you are not aware, sanctions hit both ways; just ask those Greek and Spanish farmers, and my guess is that the German industrial sector won't be far behind.

    As usual, the US is more than happy, implementing the Wolfowitz Doctrine that does what we want to harm Russia, while war rages in Europe and your economy is about to land in the crapper too due to your governing elites foolishly abiding by Washington's dictates.

    Maybe you forget that the flames of war were lit on your continent when the US and EU leaders put a match to the tinderbox of Ukraine by supporting western Ukrainians, spearheaded by extreme nationalists of questionable character, overthrew the democratically elected government and seized power in an entirely unconstitutional manner, and proceeded to put gas on that fire by supporting their military suppression of the inevitable backlash of the eastern Ukrainians who protested seeing the electoral victories they attained at the ballot box in 2010 and 2012 be reversed by the bullet.

    In the meantime, which nations have been buying up all the gold in the world? Hint: their capital cities are Moscow, Beijing and New Delhi. When the next bubble pops don't be surprised to see a new gold backed currency come to fore in the world economy; it's unlikely to have a US president or queen on it.

    RudolphS, 04 September 2014 12:36am
    Boy, the enemies against U.S. and EU are certainly piling up. Russia, ISIS, Assad, China with its oil rigs in the south-sea... One wonders, does the West still find time, energy and finance to concentrate on domestic issues and problems? Because, lest they forget, that is the reason why our dear political leaders were voted in office for in the first place.
    unaszplodrmann, 04 September 2014 1:02am

    Nato countries see a former partner becoming an adversary

    Partner? Such a conceited outlook, couched in the self-satisfied language of US diplomacy. Russia was defeated then forced to genuflect before trans-atlantic economic power. We repeated the mistakes of the Treaty of Versaille and now we must deal with a cynical, indignant Russia. NATO requires Russia to be a potential opponent in order to justify its existence and so Russia could never be considered a partner amongst equals. This editorial reads as if it were the product of a political think-tank rather than a news media outlet.

    JiminNH -> nickpossum, 04 September 2014 3:20am
    Well, considering the US national security strategy (the "Wolfowitz Doctrine") states that we will take any necessary steps to prevent any nation, or group of nations, to arise to a sufficient level of power of influence to prevent our unfettered hegemony in international affairs, perhaps Russia has a valid concern. (The word "hegemony" is actually in the documents!)

    After all, the US was never invaded by Mongol hordes, Charles XII, Napolean or Hitler, was it?

    And Russia hasn't built a ring of bases on the border of the US, has it?

    RichardCrawford10, 04 September 2014 1:36am
    Why is everyone being so aggressive with Putin? Why should he have a collection of hostile gangsters running 'the Ukraine' on his borders? These great Ukrainian patriots seem to me to be either neo-Nazi idiots or fugitives from international arrest warrants. Yulia's mentor is doing time in a federal prison on some 200M dollar money laundering conviction, and someone needs to ask her how much money she made as fuel negotiator.

    So, we see the Ukraine going from being a socialist country where,presumably, there were no millionaires to suddenly becoming a failed state led by dodgy millionaires, and we are supposed to commit our tax money and our young men to protecting these mobsters. Great.

    Manolo Torres, 04 September 2014 1:45am
    Here are some interesting views of NATO countries on the middle east that had to be taken into consideration, as expressed last week by the US, state department, it has a brilliant closure:

    We believe outside interference in Libya exacerbates current divisions and undermines Libya's democratic transition.

    What is that? stupidity? the worst of jokes? or the kind of cynicism that should make us all storm the NATO headquarters?

    http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2014/230863.htm

    Manolo Torres, 04 September 2014 1:45am
    Here are some interesting views of NATO countries on the middle east that had to be taken into consideration, as expressed last week by the US, state department, it has a brilliant closure:

    We believe outside interference in Libya exacerbates current divisions and undermines Libya's democratic transition.

    What is that? stupidity? the worst of jokes? or the kind of cynicism that should make us all storm the NATO headquarters?

    http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2014/230863.htm

    TrueCopy, 04 September 2014 4:21am
    About a year ago, few months before Meidan demonstrations, I read this article in Washington Post:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/former-soviet-states-stand-up-to-russia-will-the-us/2013/09/26/b5ad2be4-246a-11e3-b75d-5b7f66349852_story.html

    It is by Carl Gershman of National Endowment for Democracy. In it, he essentially argues, Russia and Putin are standing against us taking over Syria. He says, if we take former Soviet republics out of his hand, and then cause him problem internally in Russia he will be out of power. Then we can take over places like Syria with little effort. In his article he says the jewel in Putin's possession is Ukraine, we can take it from him.

    Gershman is a neocon, his organization goes around the world causes problems for governments neocons don't like. They manufacure crises, their motto is Democracy, their aim is causing trouble and disharmony anywhere they have their cross hair on. Unfortunately, he is not the only person and his organization playing this game. His view of Middle East is many small states divided by religions and ethnicities all "democratic" thus friendly to the West. Meaning, small states at conflict with each other based on ethnicity and religion, which would all need to have a protector in Washington, and thus they would be unable or unwilling to cause problem for Israel.. This is the exact carbon copy of what Israel wants for the middle east.

    These crowd who instigated the wars in the middle east, but have not been confronted at all, are still working their plans. This time they have gone so far as challenging Russia into a confrontation. For their nonsense and beliefs, they apparently don't even care to get close to a nuclear war. Their talking heads come on TV proposing arming Ukrainians and giving them intelligence so that they can kill Russian troops and thus when dead bodies pile up in Russia the people in Russia overthrow Putin. This came out of the mouth of William B. Taylor, former US ambassador to Ukraine, another neocon.

    It is time to take the microscope off and look at what has happened in the past dozen years with a wide angle. The west needs to confront neocons, as we believe the muslim world needs to confront ISIS and Al Qaeda. A good start is with exposing these people publicly.

    ID075732, 04 September 2014 5:00am
    The problem for Europe and by implication NATO, is that the civil war in Ukraine was instigated by the US fro geo-political purposes, to grab resources in Ukraine on Russia's boarder and so put impossible pressure on the real jewel in the crown.

    Let's watch as this genocidal conflict, backed by the West continues. True to form the US will not want peace, as a peaceful solution poses problems for them, in terms of culpability.

    While ever the MSM and Western politicians continue with this "with Putin it's personal" mindless reporting there will be no road map to peace and that road will remain closed. As we have seen many time the US agenda is about full spectrum dominance and aggression when it comes to the Global economy. Not peace.

    fansince76, 04 September 2014 5:01am

    "Although the rebels said they were local, they did not speak with local accents. Their kit looked new and included two modern Dragunov sniper rifles and two rocket-propelled grenade launchers."

    The Guardian reporters are now local accent experts as well.

    "Fighters from Mariupol's Azov battalion, volunteers with neo-Nazi leanings, said they would continue to follow orders from Kiev, but their uncompromising rhetoric suggested any deal between Poroshenko and Putin could test that loyalty."

    The Guardian reporters interview neo-Nazi soldiers from Kiev, but have nothing to say about the refusal of these soldiers to take orders from their President!
    Just like the Maidan political agreements which were first accepted by Klitchko and his buddies, before the neo-Nazis refused to accept that agreement.

    Who is in charge of an independent brigade of Nazis fighting against a civilian population in East Ukraine?

    [Sep 04, 2014] David Cameron and the cynicism of comparing Putin to Hitler by Owen Jones

    Note the number of opnedly negative comments about Cameron in the selection below.
    Sep 03, 2014 | theguardian.com | Jump to comments (1072)

    Vladimir Putin is responsible for some awful human rights abuses in Ukraine, but Cameron drawing parallels to Hitler is a cheap, politically motivated shot

    watccoe, 03 September 2014 11:41am

    Putin is responsible for some awful human rights abuses in Ukraine, but Cameron drawing parallels to Hitler is a cheap, politically motivated shot

    The rights and wrongs aside, I would expect any politician to take actions that are politically motivated.

    earhole -> watccoe, 03 September 2014 12:10pm

    The rights and wrongs aside, I would expect any politician to take actions that are politically motivated.

    There is a difference between politics and party politics.
    Politics has (or should have) the aim of doing the best for the country - party politics merely has the aim of winning next election.
    What the PM is doing is the latter.

    AuObserver, 03 September 2014 11:42am

    As regards annexation of territory from a neighboring state it is historically accurate.

    RobinWhitlock -> AuObserver, 03 September 2014 11:52am

    No it isn't. Napoleon did the same thing but he didn't burn whole villages down while locking the residents in the barn or build huge concentration camps like Auschwitz... annexation of territory isn't an excuse for comparing Putin to Hitler, besides if he really wanted to annex the whole of Ukraine rather than just assisting the rebels he would have done it by now.

    PrakashShah, 03 September 2014 11:42am

    Given that Putin is engaging in his own version of blitzkrieg and lebensraum, I think the comparison is apt to an extent.

    I think that the remarks might have been a little harsh but that Dave has brought it up, he might want to avoid the comparison to Chamberlain.

    Lets see how far forward we have to go for Kristallnacht and camps being set up.

    donkiddick -> PrakashShah, 03 September 2014 12:02pm

    Given that Putin is engaging in his own version of blitzkrieg and lebensraum, I think the comparison is apt to an extent.

    So, Desert storm, Shock and Awe, Drones and torture are just little spats of Western niceness?

    MutantNinjaThinktank, 03 September 2014 11:43am

    I agree the Hitler/Putin comparison is far-fetched; but how does Owen feel about the Jones/Orwell comparison?
    Finn_Nielsen -> MutantNinjaThinktank, 03 September 2014 11:51am
    "What has kept England on its feet during the past year? In part, no doubt, some vague idea about a better future, but chiefly the atavistic emotion of patriotism, the ingrained feeling of the English-speaking peoples that they are superior to foreigners. For the last twenty years the main object of English left-wing intellectuals has been to break this feeling down, and if they had succeeded, we might be watching the S.S. men patrolling the London streets at this moment. Similarly, why are the Russians fighting like tigers against the German invasion? In part, perhaps, for some half-remembered ideal of Utopian Socialism, but chiefly in defence of Holy Russia (the "sacred soil of the Fatherland", etc. etc.), which Stalin has revived in an only slightly altered form. The energy that actually shapes the world springs from emotions - racial pride, leader-worship, religious belief, love of war - which liberal intellectuals mechanically write off as anachronisms, and which they have usually destroyed so completely in themselves as to have lost all power of action."

    I can't imagine Owen Jones writing anything similar in a million years.

    moneyallgone, 03 September 2014 11:44am

    Comparing the events in Ukraine to those of 1938 that led to a world war isn't really comparing Putin to Hitler, is it?

    But it makes for an eye-catching headline, I suppose.

    james909, 03 September 2014 11:44am

    If Cameron was to use Nazi comparison' he could start by looking at the ConDem's treatment of the Disabled and Chronically sick I am sure IDS would love to set up a T4 camp.
    It's a land grab by the Russian's to make sure NATO have no base's near it's borders. Made easier by what's going on with the I.S.more conflict in the area will just lead to more death's.
    Let Russia and Ukraine sort it out it's not our or NATO's business.
    Strummered, 03 September 2014 11:45am
    Putin probably thinks it a compliment. He works in

    ous ways.

    Gentblue -> Strummered, 03 September 2014 12:07pm
    No. He (Putin) doesn't think it was a compliment. In fact he was absolutely furious about this. More Soviets died in WW2 than from any other country, including much of Vladimir Putin's family. The fact of the matter is that comparing his actions to Hitler was more effective than sending weapons to Ukraine. The Russians may still dream of the power and influence they wielded as the Soviet Union (especially when playing military games with their neighbours, trying to stop them from getting too big for their boots, joining the EU and thinking themselves better than Russians, like the Baltic States do) but most still do not want to be scum!

    Being compared to Adolf Hitler is a more hurtful insult than being compared to Satan for even the most religious Russian.

    Finn_Nielsen, 03 September 2014 11:49am

    I'd put him in the Stalin camp, personally. He'd probably be quite chuffed with the comparison.

    MacCosham -> Finn_Nielsen, 03 September 2014 12:38pm

    Well, perhaps you are right - at the moment, he is doing as Stalin did when supporting the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War. That is, indirectly helping the supporters of a legitimate government resisting a fascist regime that overthrew it.
    splat64, 03 September 2014 11:50am
    Right wingers don't do nuance. They live in a black and very white world.
    BeatonTheDonis -> Brouillard, 03 September 2014 11:57am

    It is clear that Putin has expansionary tendencies - he is happy for countries to be independent only as long as they align with Russia, but if they don't he seeks to inflame political tensions and divide and conquer independent countries.

    The EU and US weren't too happy when the Ukraine refused to align itself with them. They sought to inflame political tensions to the point of supporting a putsch with neo-Nazis providing the muscle. They've now divided the Ukraine and have a government in Kiev doing its economic bidding (slashing wages and pensions, increasing the price of energy).

    JacktheNat, 03 September 2014 11:53am

    David Cameron and the cynicism of comparing Putin to Hitler

    Not so much cynicism, Owen, as stupidity.

    And dangerous stupidity at that as veteran Washington reporter Bob Parry makes very clear here:

    http://consortiumnews.com/2014/09/02/whos-telling-the-big-lie-on-ukraine/

    JamesValencia, 03 September 2014 11:54am

    Owen's right: ridiculous and imflammatory comparisons. The sort of thing you might hear down the pub, late, not from the PM.
    FrankTheFrank -> JamesValencia, 03 September 2014 12:15pm
    Or from Prince Charles...
    RichieJames, 03 September 2014 12:39pm

    The difference with 1939 is that the west was arming Hitler. Most of the top US corporations were building the trucks and aircraft without which he could not have invaded Poland.

    That is what made Hitler a powerful threat.

    Don't make the mistake of thinking Hitler had today's German industrial colossus. He did not.

    vrager, 03 September 2014 11:59am
    It is time that Western governments stopped supporting Ukraine as its government is responsible for shelling and bombing its own citizens.

    Putin is an opportunist and old fashioned Russian nationalist who doesn't like others poking around in Ukraine as most Russians think the Ukraine is part of Russia.

    Western leaders denigrating Putin will achieve nothing. Sanctions will achieve nothing. Best to let Russia and Ukraine sort things out amongst themselves and if that means the Ukraine goes bust and the gas is cut off, sobeit. Until Ukrainian nationalists realise that they have to treat their Russian speaking citizens equally and with respect, those citizens will seek to leave Ukraine. Russia is Ukraine's major export market, so getting on the wrong side of Russia is plain stupid.

    donkiddick, 03 September 2014 11:59am
    On the eve of the Iraq war, Saddam Hussein was repeatedly compared to Hitler, with Donald Rumsfeld even casting George W Bush in the role of Winston Churchill.

    The media abounded with such parallels in the build-up to the Iraq disaster, with one Telegraph article headlined "Appeasement won't stop Saddam any more than Hitler" and even suggesting Iraq could bomb Southampton. On either sides of his rapprochement with the west, Libya's Colonel Gaddafi faced the Hitler treatment, too.

    How times change eh? 'Friends of the West' suddenly become our enemies, when they no longer have a use.

    thejoshuatreat, 03 September 2014 11:59am
    So, what are then the Ukranian government bombing their own civilian population??? That, err, includes many openly Nazi ministers.
    CaltonHill, 03 September 2014 12:00pm

    War between the west and Russia is clearly unthinkable, and only a negotiated settlement involving all parties in Ukraine can provide lasting peace.

    In order to achieve this lasting peace, it is imperative that the wishes of the local population are actually listened to and acted upon. If that was the case, the rebels and Russia would immediately end their armed campaign. 70% of eastern Ukraine does not want independence - they want to remain a part of Ukraine. Even 58% of Russian speakers in the region do not want independence or to be part of Russia.

    It is likely that the local population wants greater autonomy, but it is perfectly clear that they want that within in a peaceful, united Ukrainian nation to which they seem to feel they belong.

    palindrome -> CaltonHill, 03 September 2014 12:04pm
    That poll was carried out in May, before the government decided to murder 3,000 of their own citizens. I doubt those figures would be the same today.

    Caldy1, 03 September 2014 12:02pm

    " According to David Cameron, the west risks "repeating the mistakes made in Munich in '38","

    That would be the policy endorsed by the tories in the 1838 by-elections, described by their opponents as a 'vote for Hitler'?

    "The campaign was intense and focused almost entirely on foreign affairs. Hogg supported Chamberlain's appeasement policy. Lindsay opposed appeasement; his campaigners used the slogan "A vote for Hogg is a vote for Hitler."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_by-election,_1938

    Blobby is risking the further enragement of his kipper tendency who seem somewhat enamoured of Pootee

    Nigel Farage: I admire Vladimir Putin
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/31/farage-i-admire-putin

    Or, even worse for blobby, upsetting the owners of the 'heil' who shouted "Hurrah for the blackshirts!"

    Poor blobby, he really needs a decent ventriloquist to operate his mouth

    palindrome, 03 September 2014 12:02pm
    Ukraine is just another regime change job. Unfortunately the media avoid at all costs to admit this because then it would become blindingly obvious that, as in Iraq and Libya, it is another failure of western policy.
    emordnilap, 03 September 2014 12:05pm
    Proof, if proof were still needed, that Cameron is utterly out of his depth and a serious international embarrassment.

    Two days ago, ISIS were a "generational" threat, the worst ever faced. Now Putin is Hitler. These comments have all the in-depth aunderstanding, reasoned quality of zero-scoring sixth-form trolling on CiF.

    Putin is a clever, effective, and dangerous chancer, but psychotic global threat he is not. A new form of "Cool War" scenario across Europe seems to be the likely outcome of recent US (via NATO) and Russian manoeuvrings. Stasis will be reached. Borders may be adjusted. Then again in another 30 years.

    ISIS are a culturally-insular, defensive force. It's aggressive defence, to be sure, but they believe they are trying to protect Islam (and a particular selection of elements of broadly Middle Eastern culture) from outside interference. We must recognize them for what THEY think they are, and what we think "WE" are if we wish to find channels through which to avoid exacerbating global terrorist violence. Stealing (or perhaps "chaperoning") resources in territories claimed and run by other groups of people is probably not a useful way of doing this.

    No easy answers, obviously. But we must ask meaningful questions before bombing, invading, and supporting the iniquitous regimes that provoke people - real, ordinary people - to turn to either "Russian-speaking militias", or "medieval theological zealots".

    supnorm, 03 September 2014 12:11pm
    So according to many of the comments here, it's okay for Obama and Cameron to intervene in Iraq because ISIS have killed few American and British citizens but Putin is not allowed to intervene in eastern Ukraine where mercenaries funded by the Ukrainian government and oligarchs have killed hundreds of ethnic Russians?
    bartalk -> ChrisGrieve, 03 September 2014 12:22pm
    Cameron being childish ... is he next going to call Putin fat or maybe ugly or maybe stupid ... wait and watch our childish leader.

    Russia should be a close ally, they did a lot more for us that the USA did during WW2. Without Russia we would now be speaking German, without the USA's involvement the Germans would still have been defeated.

    bartalk -> NLon55, 03 September 2014 1:08pm
    The German invasion of the Soviet Union caused a high rate of fatalities: 95 percent of all German Army casualties that occurred from 1941 to 1944, and 65 percent of all Allied military casualties from the entire war.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa

    Let's repeat that; the Russians incurred two thirds of all allied casualties while causing 95% of all German casualties after 1941. I say it again, we could not have won the war without the Russians.

    mikeypie12, 03 September 2014 12:16pm

    But let's not pretend Ukraine's government are champions of human rights either. According to Human Rights Watch, they have been using "indiscriminate rockets in populated areas" in violation of international humanitarian law.

    When 'international humanitarian law' is also flouted - quite frequently in some cases - by the likes of the Chinese, US, Israel... who is actually enforcing this law or even respecting it? Anyone?

    The World is run by hypocrites and tyrants. I am actually so weary of the massive amounts propaganda, lies, and hypocrisy in the media at this point that I'm actually struggling to care at all, about the seemingly endless atrocities being commited, daily. Any sense of anger at all of the lies, hypocrisy, the constant injustices being carried out are being whittled down to little more than a futile acceptance. Then, that's sort of the point of propaganda, isn't it?

    Pagey, 03 September 2014 12:19pm
    A man with a propaganda machine many have likened to Goebbels' criticising Putin?
    Spicio, 03 September 2014 12:22pm
    Who wouldn't make a 'land grab' if you saw your enemy getting closer? Stop being the enemy and you'll stop the land grab!
    edwardrice -> VoccoGuardian, 03 September 2014 12:38pm

    No mention of Putin's repeated Nazi references when characterising Kiev.

    John McCain metes antisemitic Neo-Nazi Oleh Tyahnybok in Kiev.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukraine-2013-12

    the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists
    Kiev throws paramilitaries – some openly neo-Nazi - into the front of the battle with rebels

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11025137/Ukraine-crisis-the-neo-Nazi-brigade-fighting-pro-Russian-separatists.html

    charminggal, 03 September 2014 12:27pm
    Cameron is a amateur dictator himself...puffing hot air onto flames just ignites the situation...comparing Mr a Putin to hitler that's inflammatory for a start...Cameron doesn't think before he opens his mouth.
    edwardrice, 03 September 2014 12:28pm
    Cameron is a clown, an embarrassment. He is not a statesman, he's a US neocon poodle.

    Every enemy of the US is a new Hitler, every diplomatic effort to defuse a crisis created by the US is called ''appeasement''.

    EU leaders are appeasing Washington and the Neocon loons. Enough!

    edwardrice -> epgorrie, 03 September 2014 12:34pm

    Ukraine has been one of the boldest moves of Putins reign

    Enough of the loon conspiracy theories please!

    The EU and US backed the coup in Kiev, NOT Russia.

    But I'd love to know how you think Putin got Nuland to hand out cookies to the protesters or how he got John MaCain to stand on stage with and met a notorious Neo-Nazi.

    The Vulcan mind meld?

    epgorrie -> edwardrice, 03 September 2014 12:46pm
    Wow you're really after a fair debate aren't you! Did you even read the comment?

    I agree that the EU and US backed the coup in Kiev, my comment refers to the Russian involvement in the fighting in Eastern Ukraine and the annexation of Crimea.
    The west supporting a coup and Russia sending troops and weapons into the country are two very different things.

    edwardrice -> epgorrie, 03 September 2014 12:56pm
    Sorry.

    But there is no evidence Russia has sent troops into Ukraine.

    There is really nothing.

    Russia has annexed Crimea but apart from that?

    RedonBlue, 03 September 2014 12:29pm

    Nothing tightens the sphincter of the British ruling class quicker than the Russian Bear on the prowl

    angie11, 03 September 2014 12:31pm

    So the West vilifies Putin, slaps sanctions on him and his people, and threatens him.

    With Netanyahu, who seizes land that is not his and is ILLEGAL, he is wined and dined.

    With Netanyahu who has massacred thousands, he is given arms and support for same.

    With Israel there is a deafening silence with regard to sanctions.

    Yes, it seems clear that Cameron is another hypocritical sycophant of Netanyahu who behaves much more like the terrible Nazi.

    FrakasWaldbrunn, 03 September 2014 12:31pm
    Shalom. Everything around Ukraine is, lets say, not accurate, not accurate at all.

    Beside Mr. Cameron, he is just talking as they always do. Talking, making air, being for nothing..
    The Western MSM doing not much different when writing; "Ukraine and Russia reach permanent ceasefire.." and so on. How is that possible? The Ukraine is a conflict between interests of the EUS and some inside interests, and the people of Ukraine disagreed. It was never a war between Ukraine and Russia. It is a inside conflict initiated by the EUS to harm Asia and keep the US$ as world currency alive. End of story. Everything else is not true, simple it is.

    dolly63, 03 September 2014 12:32pm
    Think you find that America and Britain has killed more innocent people since 1938 than Hitler ever did.
    mikeypie12 -> Brandybaby, 03 September 2014 1:03pm
    Well since World War 2, there was the disastrous partioning of India which left millions dead and displaced. Then there's Ireland, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and there's supporting and arming Israel in their apartheid and genocide, then there's the bombing of Libya, and continuining unabaited support for American foreign policy and their insidious drone campaigns etc, this country has some serious blood on its hands.
    mjhunbeliever, 03 September 2014 12:38pm
    The simple truth is that there is world campaign for the domination of all world resources, in the Ukraine once again Gas and Oil reserves are on the agenda.

    Could Cameron's reference to Hitler also be a diversion for the real fascists that Cameron is supporting.

    Europe were the first to back the Ukraine government irrespective of the kind of democracy it was.

    There is a world power struggle happening and it as being wrapped up as defending people from tyrrany, which we all know is the last thing it is.

    Putin is no better than Cameron and Vice Versa.

    We need to reject all these politicians and look at what our needs are closer to home, setting a real example for the rest of the world to follow.

    Vote, Left Unity, or Green, or NHA reject the rest.

    Madryn, 03 September 2014 12:46pm
    Born seven years after WWII, Vladimir Putin hardly can be a Nazi: his older brother died during the Siege of Leningrad (see http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140127/186958249/Putin-Pays-Respects-to-Brother-Victims-of-Leningrad-Siege--.html)
    Vitold66, 03 September 2014 1:05pm
    Of course comparing Putin to Hitler is completely ridicules and self-serving propaganda, there is no question about that because the whole situation is completely and utterly different. (just a reminder to some of the history "buffs" here who think it works: Austria annexation was never challenge by the "west" or Austrian themselves thousands of them join the German army , Czechoslovakia was NOTHING like Ukraine, there was no puch that removed legitimate government , there was no riots or fighting between different fractions/nationalist, there was no civil war and 200.000 German refuges in Germany…. Just so we are on the same page)
    But I think the problem is not in the propaganda against our "enemies" but rather in the fact that we (well…by "we" I mean western politicians and media….and public that follows these clown) can't no longer distinguish or compare our actions (Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria,…etc;) to those that we oppose…. There is NEVER even an effort to measure others the same way we "measure" ourselves… WE are always RIGHT (even if we are utterly wrong) …THEY are always WRONG… and this is the bottom line … like in the Bible…you se the splinter in your opponent eyes but you don't see the ship mast in your own eye…with the "moral" highroad like that no wonder that the WEST lost it's ALL credibility in the world
    DolleDolf -> Runesmith, 03 September 2014 1:34pm
    But is Ukraine a country or simply a renegade province? It basically fell off the old SU when that was at its weakest. Certainly I have always considered places like Kiev and Kharkov and Odessa Russian. It is hardly like Portugal or Sweden which have been countries in the strict sense of the world for a historically prolonged time.

    The same consideration holds true for Byelorussia.

    Drawing a line in the sand and declaring Ukraine an independent country seems to have been an opportunity seized to further weaken the Old Enemy. Especially since that move would preclude that Old Enemy access to its Crimean seaports, a situation that Russia, understandably from its point of view, has now rectified. To then make overtures toward Ukraine, as in the Baltics, Georgia, Moldova, etc, holding the carrot of EU and NATO membership and, hooray, entry in the Euro, with all the unmentioned riches and bliss that that <ahem> would bring, was at best cynical as everybody knew that that was not going to happen.

    The outcry over the 'invasion of a sovereign nation' that we have been hearing about strikes me as opportunistic and an attempt to make Putin look like, well, Hitler.

    DrDel, 03 September 2014 1:06pm
    More bluff and bluster from old windbag Cameron.

    Does anyone think that Putin gives a toss what our PM thinks or says?

    Not that I support Putin; just that Cameron is an arse and everyone knows it.

    Vitold66, 03 September 2014 1:07pm
    Of course comparing Putin to Hitler is completely ridicules and self-serving propaganda, there is no question about that because the whole situation is completely and utterly different. (just a reminder to some of the history "buffs" here who think it works: Austria annexation was never challenge by the "west" or Austrian themselves thousands of them join the German army , Czechoslovakia was NOTHING like Ukraine, there was no putsch that removed legitimate government , there was no riots or fighting between different fractions/nationalist, there was no civil war and 200.000 German refuges in Germany…. Just so we are on the same page)

    But I think the problem is not in the propaganda against our "enemies" but rather in the fact that we (well…by "we" I mean western politicians and media….and public that follows these clown) can't no longer distinguish or compare our actions (Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria,…etc;) to those that we oppose….

    There is NEVER even an effort to measure others the same way we "measure" ourselves… WE are always RIGHT (even if we are utterly wrong) …THEY are always WRONG… and this is the bottom line … like in the Bible…you se the splinter in your opponent eyes but you don't see the ship mast in your own eye…with the "moral" highroad like that no wonder that the WEST lost it's ALL credibility in the world

    Hottentot, 03 September 2014 1:16pm
    Owen article is very good

    Cameron is a little boy, who needs to get his hands out of his trousers. He is trying to impress his over-lord Obama et al, who have caused this mess in the first place. What he has done is show how utterly childish undiplomatic and unprofessional he is. He is delusional if he thinks he holds a candle to Churchill, or that Nato can push Russia around.

    henriettealkhouri, 03 September 2014 1:18pm
    The Media has been awash with name calling and facts twisting to the extreme to serve their political masters.

    Very few journalists, had the courage and the clarity of thought to speak the truth.

    America and Brittain and the Israelis has done a lot worse than that,yet no one called Blair or Bush or Netanyaho a Hitler.All these countries claim to be the guardians of Human Rights,yet their history is full of Blood.It is time for these Politicians to look in the mirror,I wonder at ,what will they See ?

    david119, 03 September 2014 1:41pm
    England and David Cameron could do with a lot more empathy.

    England hasn't been invaded since 1688 whereas Russia has been ravaged by the Germans and French in comparatively modern times. Ukraine was until comparatively recently part of the same country as Russia. There is a substantial Russian minority in Ukraine and the current Ukraine Government contains some very unsavoury characters. It was Ukrainians not Russians who enthusiastically collaborated with the Nazis.

    So I think England should imagine itself to have been brutally invaded as much as Russia and with a substantial alienated English speaking minority in France....

    If Putin is a Nazi what about our friends in Saudi Arabia where people are regularly beheaded in public and women cannot even drive a car ? The Saudi whose citizens funded ISIS and religious schools and mosques that are an existential threat to this country. But we supply Saudi with the latest weapons and send Prince Charles off to sip tea with the reactionary tyrants that run the country.

    England needs an urgent reality check. Putin is not our ideological enemy, the Saudi Royal family most definitely are.

    [Sep 03, 2014] David Cameron and the cynicism of comparing Putin to Hitler by Owen Jones

    "The west comparing its latest enemy number to the German Fuhrer has been a standard tactic for decades." In reality it looks more like Stalin support of Republican against Franco falangists in the Spanish civil war, then the occupation of Czechoslovakia. Also Hilter was strongly supported by US industrialists (including Bush family), the support we do not see with Putin. From comments: "Ukraine is just another regime change job. Unfortunately the media avoid at all costs to admit this because then it would become blindingly obvious that, as in Iraq and Libya, it is another failure of western policy."
    September 3, 2014 | theguardian.com | Jump to comments (251)

    Vladimir Putin is responsible for some awful human rights abuses in Ukraine, but Cameron drawing parallels to Hitler is a cheap, politically motivated shot

    Hitler comparisons intend simply to shut down any reasoned discussion, demonise all those who are not hawks, and to ratchet up tension.'

    Oh, here we go. The west's escalating showdown with Vladimir Putin has led to Adolf Hitler being invoked. According to David Cameron, the west risks "repeating the mistakes made in Munich in '38", making it clear the role he sees the Russian leader as assuming. Putin was able to flatten Chechnya at the beginning of the century without such inflammatory comparisons – Tony Blair even cheered him on – but it was only a matter of time before western leaders began flinging Nazi comparisons around in the Ukraine crisis.

    The west comparing its latest enemy number to the German Fuhrer has been a standard tactic for decades. When Egypt's General Nasser nationalised the Suez Canal in 1956, Britain's prime minister, Anthony Eden, compared him to Hitler, while Labour's Hugh Gaitskell opted for a comparison with Benito Mussolini. Serbia's Slobodan Milosevic was the Hitler of the late 1990s, and the US dabbled with describing former Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in these terms too. On the eve of the Iraq war, Saddam Hussein was repeatedly compared to Hitler, with Donald Rumsfeld even casting George W Bush in the role of Winston Churchill. The media abounded with such parallels in the build-up to the Iraq disaster, with one Telegraph article headlined "Appeasement won't stop Saddam any more than Hitler" and even suggesting Iraq could bomb Southampton. On either sides of his rapprochement with the west, Libya's Colonel Gaddafi faced the Hitler treatment, too.

    In and of themselves, these comparisons are self-evidently ludicrous. Hitler was a racist totalitarian dictator who presided over the world's only attempt at industrialised genocides of entire peoples, killing tens of millions in the process. It is possible to regard foreign leaders as deeply unpleasant and abusive of basic human rights without believing they are Hitler. There is plenty of space between "democracy that respects human rights" and "genocidal totalitarian regime with ambitions to conquer much of the world". Cameron's comparison will undoubtedly fuel anti-western sentiment among the Russian population: after all, the Soviet Union was absolutely instrumental in the defeat of Nazism, suffering well over 20 million fatalities. In the case of Russia, comparisons to Hitler could hardly be more insulting.

    But the propaganda purpose is clear. Hitler is the most despised leader in history; everybody rational agrees that intervening was the right thing to do in that case. Those who demanded his appeasement are utterly discredited by history, and therefore it is highly effective to regard opponents of current western wars as the same dangerously naive, inadvertent friends of tyrants that can only be defeated. It is obvious in hindsight that the appeasers were wrong; their inheritors will one day be seen in just the same way after they have inflicted similar damage, or so the narrative goes.

    There is no doubting the pernicious role of Putin. Pro-Russian rebels in the so-called Dontesk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic have been found to be arbitrarily detaining civilians and subjecting them to torture and other terrible mistreatment. Terrible human rights abuses have been committed by such rebels.

    But let's not pretend Ukraine's government are champions of human rights either. According to Human Rights Watch, they have been using "indiscriminate rockets in populated areas" in violation of international humanitarian law. There have been unlawful, indiscriminate attacks by both government and rebels in Luhansk, and Ukraine's government has shelled civilians in Dontesk, too. Amnesty International has similarly damned pro-Kiev vigilantes in eastern Ukraine. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian civilians have fled for the Russian border.

    War between the west and Russia is clearly unthinkable, and only a negotiated settlement involving all parties in Ukraine can provide lasting peace. The ceasefire announced by Ukraine and Russia is promising, and needs to be supported to ensure that it lasts. Let's resist the Hitler comparisons, which intend simply to shut down any reasoned discussion, to demonise all those who are not hawks, and to ratchet up tension. Soon enough, though, western leaders will settle on a new enemy number one, and the Hitler comparisons will begin all over again.

    [Sep 02, 2014] Putin claims Russian forces 'could conquer Ukraine capital in two weeks'

    I think we can congratulate US diplomats with huge winning. Now EU and Russia will start drifting apart. And it does not matter if like one commenter said "...I bet that pompous incompetent Barroso jumped on the remark to justify 'ramping up' the sanctions', " . The net result is what matter.
    Sep 01, 2014 | The Guardian

    Leak reveals Russian president told Josι Manuel Barroso that his forces could conquer Kiev if he ordered them to do so

    uracan, 02 September 2014 12:07pm
    if Russia wanted they could but they haven't because they don't want to.

    All this nonsense we've heard from Western armchair strategists of Russia planning to invade Eastern Europe is exacty that, Nonsense.

    realitychek -> uracan, 02 September 2014 12:30pm
    Exactly

    Longish, but a decent analysis of the wider picture here:

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39554.htm

    Trudi Goater, 02 September 2014 12:08pm

    , Oh for Petes sake it was an off the cuff remark meaning if Russia really was going in to invade he could! No indication that he was going to! Stop the bloody warmongering
    Johnny Kent -> Trudi Goater, 02 September 2014 12:20pm
    Yes, I bet that pompous incompetent Barroso jumped on the remark to justify 'ramping up' the sanctions', saying the remark is a 'game changer' and all options are on the table'.....Don't you just love Western jargon-speak?
    imperium3 -> uracan, 02 September 2014 12:37pm
    Exactly - if Russia planned to conquer Eastern Europe they wouldn't hang around waiting for NATO to agree on a plan to stop them - they'd pounce and then dare the Americans to counterattack.
    mexabrit -> uracan , 02 September 2014 1:12pm
    Well put, all of this Ukraine mess is due to NATO's desperation to remain relevant and maintain funding. Why else did they fund a coup to kick this whole thing off.
    A nice side bonus for them, if all goes as planned, will be increased arms production and a chance to send off all the young unemployed (and potentially rebellious) to get slaughtered.
    whitja01 -> Phalanxia, 02 September 2014 9:30pm
    The problem with all the analyses of whether or not Putin wants to invade Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Poland, etc. is that it completely ignores the agency of east and southeast Russian-speaking Ukrainians.

    How did this armed conflict start? It did not start with Putin, but with an American-backed regime change in Kiev, coupled with plans for de-Russification for the country. When east Ukrainians objected, they were labelled as terrorists and subjected to massive bombardments of their cities and villages. They took up arms to defend themselves. Putin didn't even support them then, arguing that they should not hold referendums for separation. He wanted there to be negotiations that could lead to respect for the Russian minority INSIDE Ukraine, not as part of Russia. Poroshenko's response was to up the military campaign, leading to massive civilian casualties.

    It was only when the east Ukrainians started using guerilla tactics of cutting supply lines of the Ukrainian Army, in the last two weeks of August, and starting winning the war, that the all-too familiar refrain was heard from Kiev, i.e. to blame Russia and Putin for everything. It is the only way they can save face.

    I don't know where Russian troops are officially in Ukraine. I know that there are many Russian volunteers, some of whom have extensive military backgrounds. There are also volunteers from France, Canada, Italy, Greece, and even...the USA. They apparently see this as similar to the Spanish Civil War, i.e. they believe they are fighting against fascism.

    I apologise if I sound like a Putinbot. I know he has many faults, not the least of which is the treatment of the Russian opposition.
    However, the western narrative on the Ukraine issue has been so one-sided that I feel compelled to say something. By blaming Putin for practically everything that's gone wrong in Ukraine, the west and the Kiev government can totally ignore the wishes of the east Ukrainians. Oh, I forgot, they are 'terrorists' and therefore do not have the right to be heard.

    Carambaman, 02 September 2014 12:09pm
    He probably used this language in the context "We do not want to invade Ukraine, if we wanted to we could"
    Dimitry Prihodko, 02 September 2014 12:14pm
    Too much. Russian troops could do that in 3 days. The only question is, do we in Russia really need it? the so-called "ukraininans" have been stealing theior own country for 23 years - stealing and selling away.
    we do NOT need this beggar country - we have many more problems to cope with.
    The "own grandeur syndrome" cultivated in ukrainians for 23 years will not lt them see the truth - NO ONE wants them - neither Russia wants to conquer them (too much funds needed to restore the country), nor Europe and the USA want to help them.

    theonionmurders -> Hellarious, 02 September 2014 12:37pm

    Before spitting insults like beggar country, bring to your mind some memories about Russia in 90s.

    Indeed. Like Russia in the 1990s the IMF and Western corporations are in the process of asset stripping all of the countries resources, infrastructure and services, leading to serious unrest and factionalisation of the country.

    You still can't join the dots can you?

    Stillgrizzly -> Dimitry Prihodko, 02 September 2014 12:20pm

    "the so-called "ukraininans" have been stealing theior own country for 23 years - stealing and selling away"

    Something that would absolutely never happen in Russia...

    bromley -> Dimitry Prihodko, 02 September 2014 12:48pm
    Shows the mindset of many Russians. Ukrainians are lesser people in your eyes. Yet you like to claim that Ukrainians are like Nazis. Stay out of Ukraine and let them get on with governing their own country.
    iamshchik -> bromley, 02 September 2014 1:07pm
    But they are NOT governing their own country. Their government, or what you say is their government, is with the active participation of fascist militias busy shelling its own citizens.

    The same fascist militias who threatened to march on Kyiv unless Kyiv backed down on not releasing the more criminal elements who had been jailed. Kyiv of course backed down. Governing their own country? Leaving their own country in the hands of the Freikorps.

    Bosula -> Phalanxia, 02 September 2014 1:41pm
    Ukrainians and many Russians are all Slavs - same gene pool. This makes them related. This gives them a basis for commonality.

    The problem is when nationalism is tossed into the mix which suggests that one group is superior to another.

    With a Ukrainian family it disgusts me when some family members seriously argue that they are genetically or morally superior in some way.

    NWObserver -> Dimitry Prihodko, 02 September 2014 2:29pm
    Very bad idea to insult your kindred folk, especially on foreign sites. Ukrainians are the closest, after Belarussians, to Russians ethnically, linguistically and culturally. Like it or not, Ukraine's and its people's fortunes/failures are inextricably linked to Russia's and vice-versa.

    Yes, they are acting stupid, but no different from how Russia acted during the rule of Boris Nikolayevich.

    Don't let the scheming scum of the West poison you against your own. Have a little patience and Ukrainians will realise their mistakes and recognize who their friends are and who are not.

    aislesay, 02 September 2014 12:16pm
    Example of how politicians and the media twist words to sensationalise in the media. Disgusting and a third rate Barruso. Putin is standing for his nation as we will for ours.
    uuuuuuu, 02 September 2014 12:17pm
    Why stop with Kiev? I am sure Russia could nuke the whole world into non-existence; that would only take hours instead of weeks. I am pretty sure that would also fill Putin and his friends, allies and supporters with a huge sense of national pride and achievement.
    wellbeingb4dolla -> uuuuuuu, 02 September 2014 12:24pm
    FFS he hasn't invaded Ukraine and as far as I can tell he is trying desperately to avoid doing so without appearing to have abandoned the Eastern Ukrainian people to be massacred by their government.

    I don't like the man but then I am averse to most in power.

    However I can see that the Western powers are really poking that bear with a big stick.

    Jan Vanosnabrugge, 02 September 2014 12:19pm
    Barroso starts leaking ,time to retire this eurobozo.
    Listen, Mom, what that bad man told me.
    nocausetoaddopt -> Jan Vanosnabrugge, 02 September 2014 12:33pm
    Indeed.
    Why leak this.
    And what was his reply?
    westmoreland22 -> Jan Vanosnabrugge, 02 September 2014 3:52pm
    Did Jabba the Hutt come from Portugal to preside over the EU? and how did Herman van Rompuy Dark Lord of the sith end up in Brussels as the Emperor, hanging out with Wookiee Catherine Ashton?

    [Sep 02, 2014] 'Russian tank battalion' helps rebels make gains in east Ukraine, Kiev claims

    The first victim in any war is truth... From comments: "Mr Poroshenko is trying to advertise their losses and blame Russia for it. In fact it is well known that there has been huge amounts of desertions in the Kiev army ranks on top of their loses. However by playing this card he is hoping to get NATO and the rest of the world involved in this conflict, instead of sitting on a negotiation table and discuss the demands of eastern Ukrainians. "
    Sep 01, 2014 | The Guardian

    Pro-Russia rebels are making decisive gains against Ukrainian forces in the east of the country, a turning of tides on the battlefield...

    shourav, 01 September 2014 7:55pm
    The Ukrainians want us to believe that a Russian tank battalion and supposedly 1000 soldiers can turn the tide of a war? What a joke.

    This sort of reporting also exposes the so called idea of the free press in the West. When push comes to shove, even the most 'liberal' newspapers in the West like the Guardian turn into Western propaganda outlets.

    What was the report on the Guardian a few days ago about a Guardian reporter witnessing Russian armored columns moving into Ukraine? Whatever happened to that Guardian? Aren't reporters supposed to provide evidence? So is the Western standard of journalism about publishing anything and expecting the readers to swallow it?

    Andrey Andreevich K, 01 September 2014 7:52pm
    Russian tank battalion includes 93(!) tanks. Not easy to put out of sight. But I believe no foto/video or even satellite images we won't see again.
    Jsteel -> Andrey Andreevich K , 01 September 2014 8:01pm
    9 tanks plus commander's per company.

    So it's 32. Your figure is for a regiment.

    Which wouldn't turn the tide anyway. Nothing is right with the "battalion".

    geronimo -> Jsteel, 01 September 2014 9:43pm
    The traditional size of a Russian Tank Battalion is 3x13 MBTs plus a command tank and extensive support.

    The current T90s are 10 metres long and 4 metres wide.

    I look forward to seeing the US surveillance footage of 1600 square metres of tank, plus fuel trucks and other support vehicle

    monkie -> VladimirM, 01 September 2014 10:16pm
    i really have no idea what the joke is, but something else that is funny, the guardian quotes this ex-general:

    Vladimir Ruban, a former Ukrainian officer in charge of negotiations on prisoner exchanges

    but fail to mention that he not only said in a recent interview that there were no regular russian army troops in the Ukraine, but he had this interesting thing to say about the rebels: my job is to free people from all sides .

    UP is the interviewer, GR is the general (small edit for clarity/space saving)

    UP: Well, in fact, yes. These are people who threaten the lives and well-being of innocent people.
    EDIT
    GR: I do not relate to those people as you would relate to the enemies. It is easy for you to take this attitude. But I have known these people for a long time. There are officers who went through Afghanistan, who protested against Yanukovych alongside us. There are people with whom we stood on the Maidan-Euromaidan. Only, we did not call it by that name.

    UP: There-where is "there"?

    GR: There-on the other side, behind the line, in the Lugansk and the Donetsk Republics.

    UP: You mean, these people were with you during Maidan?

    GR: Yes, they are now fighting the Ukrainian Army. They [who stood on Maidan -ed.] are on both sides.

    UP: And why do they do it…?

    GR: Why did Right Sector do it on Maidan? Or why did anyone stand on Maidan?

    UP: If they were on the same Maidan, why do they now oppose those people with whom they used to stand hand in hand?

    GR: Because the people who were on Maidan were satisfied with the removal of Yanukovych-that is all. None of the rest of the demands was met. So, they decided to go all the way. For them, removing Yanukovych was not enough; they need a real change. And most of the measures they demand are the same as were proclaimed on Maidan.

    interesting?

    monkie -> shpuntik, 01 September 2014 10:00pm
    Even some in Kiev don't really believe the Russians are coming, the general in charge of hostage negotiations said in a interview, as recently as the 20th of august, that there were no Russian regular armed forces involved in the conflict.

    So, who to trust, the wailing politicians or the general in charge of negotiating hostage releases?
    UP is doing the interview GR is the general

    UP: But Russia does not recognize this as a war…

    GR: What does Russia have to do with it?

    UP: You believe Russia is not involved in this conflict?

    GR: Did you see any Russian troops there?

    UP: I saw militants there from Russia.

    GR: Have you seen any involvement of Russian troops?

    UP: Officially-no.

    GR: You will also not see them unofficially-because they are not there. If you have seen someone who is Russian, or military, this does not imply Russian involvement.

    UP: Then what should it be called?

    GR: Whatever you like. You know that mercenaries are fighting on both sides?

    original source of this translation for the pedants .
    randomrob -> CompassionateTory, 01 September 2014 9:07pm
    Just re-watched 'The Power of Nightmares'. Back in 1976 'Team B' advised that because there was no evidence of an advanced Soviet submarine sonar, they must therefore have invented a 'non acoustic' sonar! Everything they said turned out to be pure fantasy but has defined US and NATO aggression for decades.
    shourav 01 September 2014 8:01pm
    I think one should stick to articles by Paul Craig Roberts to figure out what exactly is going on in Ukraine. In fact, even the former Guardian reporter Jonathan Steele, seems to be reportinig the events objectivly. His interview on Democracy Now was illuminating. Cant trust these mainstream media houses.
    Andrey Andreevich K, 01 September 2014 8:04pm
    The last time Ukrainian army was surrounded, MH17 crashed. Fakes about army of Russian tanks at least suffer only rational mind losses
    foolisholdman -> psygone, 01 September 2014 9:21pm

    'Russian tank battalion' ....its all lies!
    I refuse to believe anything unless its in 3D, High-Definition, mega-mega-pixel resolution in surround sound, using Dolby Advanced Audio for butt-kicking bass.
    there.
    ---------------
    best regards

    The sound is impossible, but the rest is there. The USG has a geostationary spy-in-the-sky satellite with enough resolution to pick up discarded beer botles and read the number plates of cars, permanantly parked over the Ukraine. "Where are the photos of the Russian tank battalions?" I hear you cry. Well son, I'm afraid you'll just have to cry for them as they are classified (like the contents of MH17's black boxes and probably for the same reason.)

    dion13, 01 September 2014 8:13pm
    While there were talks in Minsk today between representatives of Russia, Kiev, Donetsk and Lugansk self-proclaimed republics and OSCE, Petro Poroshenko was busy on the phone with Washington:

    - Poroshenko tries to convince Washington to declare 'Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics' terrorist organizations

    - Poroshenko has conveyed his thanks to the U.S. Congress for its initiative to grant Ukraine major non-NATO ally status

    http://www.kyivpost.com/content/politics/poroshenko-tries-to-convince-washington-to-declare-donetsk-and-luhansk-peoples-republics-terrorist-organizations-362934.html

    Black Cat -> dion13, 01 September 2014 8:21pm
    Yet again, the US seems to step in to nip the chance of peace in the bud
    PyotrGrozny, 01 September 2014 8:15pm
    Discussion here seems to be polarised between those who take the Moscow line entirely and those who take the Kiev/Western line entirely. There are positions in between. I can't see how the tide of war can be turned without Russian intervention but at the same time think that the Russian intervention may be (reasonably) justifiable.
    jamesoverseas -> PyotrGrozny, 01 September 2014 9:19pm

    I can't see how the tide of war can be turned without Russian intervention but at the same time think that the Russian intervention may be (reasonably) justifiable.

    As has to be repeated here ad nauseum (because there's only been reporting in Ukrainian / Russian media), the tide of war hasn't turned. The real war was happening in the South - without a single western report on it.

    For at least 6 weeks most of Kiev's forces have been trapped in the Southern Cauldron being taken apart. Kiev then gambled on a strike to split Donetsk from Luhansk - this was stopped at the reinforced Shaktersk / Torez / Snizhe line, and the remains trapped in a new series of pockets.

    What is happening now has been the inevitable end game for about 8 weeks.

    IdreamaPeacefulWorld, 01 September 2014 8:19pm
    The poor moral from the Kiev troops have been rampant for the last few weeks. Several pro-Ukrainian blogs show that they have been making major gains against Kiev outing soldiers who had to cross the border to Russia and avoid certain death and in the process gathering a lot of equipment such as tanks, artillery...

    In some parts they have been surrounded (just like the Germans in Stalingrad battle) and had to leave everything behind them. Also as no supplies and fuel were coming their way it made their positions untenable.

    If western medias were reporting accurately this information it would have come to no surprise that the Pro-Russians were going to win their fight against Kiev. They do not need any armament supplies from Russia as they have been gathering a huge amount along their victories on the battlefield.

    Mr Poroshenko is trying to advertise their loses and blame Russia for it. In fact it is well known that there has been huge amounts of desertions in the Kiev army ranks on top of their loses. However by playing this card he is hoping to get NATO and the rest of the world involved in this conflict, instead of sitting on a negotiation table and discuss the demands of eastern Ukrainians.

    They did not want to be part of Russia, all they wanted was an autonomous, federal status. They did not want to give it to them as they were afraid that this situation would turn to be similar to Crimea. Unfortunately there was no way that Russia would have done the same thing as the pro-Russian population is less than the one in Crimea. So it was not viable for them to do it.

    Now with this ongoing murdering of civilians through intensive shelling the divisions are going to be deeper between east and Kiev. I think that there will animosity against what Kiev have been doing in the East and it will be very difficult to overcome this division created in east Ukrainian minds.

    Please Mr Poroshenko, cut on the bullshitting, stop lying and get real. Negotiate till there is some time left or you may loose more than you intended to.

    jfleetwood 01 September 2014 8:21pm
    Ethnic cleansing and silent genocide against Russian speaking population of Donetsk and Lugansk republics by Kiev junta has failed.

    I am glad that NATO and CIA planners lost here. Otherwhise we would have humanitarian crisis with few million refugees in Russia.

    We already have almost one million refugees in Rostov and other border regions of Russia. Western media does not report how these refugees live, what they eat, where they sleep. They are not interested for them. Total silence in Western so called free press....

    Robert Looren de Jong jfleetwood, 01 September 2014 8:34pm
    silence is there because it is total rubbish only ethnic cleansing going on is from the terrorists kidnapping-holding for ransom-torturing and executing people
    Vlad Tatarsky -> Robert Looren de Jong, 01 September 2014 8:55pm
    Oh, come on - just interview half a millions of refugees from East Ukraine, the silence exists only in West mass media and only until rebels take over in this civil war. Kiev got from US une carte blanche supported by EU for a few thousands of civil collateral damage accepted during the suppression of rebellion. But the limit has been exceeded!
    Kaiama, 01 September 2014 9:04pm
    The louder Kiev shouts, the more you know it is losing. The Minsk meetings will not produce an instant solution, but it is the start of negotiations. Poroshenko cannot currently speak directly with the separatists or key figures in his administration and certain allied oligarchs will withdraw their support from him.

    Kolomoisky is currently the main obstacle to an agreement, but pressure will be applied on him.

    Today his Crimean assets were confiscated: this is a message for him to keep quiet, or the DPR will advance to occupy his territories in southern and central Ukraine. Watch for further advances from the separatists as they take over Mariupol and proceed onwards towards the Dnepr river.

    [Sep 02, 2014] Ukraine clashes force troops to abandon airport before crisis talks Shaun Walker

    The Guardian
    JoeMacDonagh, 01 September 2014 1:43pm
    The tank battalion is probably a figment of the imagination of the Ukraine military spokesman. What is not is that Kiev is losing this war. It's army does not want to fight, it can't enforce the draft, and it's forced to rely on savage ultra-right volunteer battalions who are finding that military action is not the same as having a ruck at a football match or chucking petrol bombs at cops. In short they are getting their arses kicked.

    Time for Poroshenko to call off his dogs and talk seriously about autonomy. The US cavalry is not coming. And Europe doesn't have one.

    monkie -> Jirik, 01 September 2014 2:17pm

    A Russian Tank Battalion? Have the 1000 - 4000 Russian volunteers turned into the Russian Army?

    it is poor reporting, the rebels have not been shy about the number of volunteers, and donated supplies/cash they are receiving from Russia. after all the russian press is reporting on the Odessa massacre, the shooting of demonstrators in Mariupol and other places, and the shelling of donetsk and other major cities in the Ukraine.

    the rebels have also not been shy about being allowed the freedom to move into russia for tactical reasons, nor about what they describe as the "surplus store" they have access too thanks to the russians, with the allegation being made that every time pressure is ratcheted up more material is released.

    it was also said that the tanks were traded for the stepping down of the leader of the rebels because he was considered a lose cannon (and a alleged human rights abuser).

    but Russian assistance is certainly not the same thing as a full tank battalion, and the idea that Russia attacked with a tank battalion with no full scale invasion or air support seems pretty ludicrous to me.

    OpiumAddict, 01 September 2014 1:44pm
    so Kiev is now losing the war they started.

    my heart bleeds for them.

    truecomrade -> hatstan, 01 September 2014 1:54pm
    and we all know who is responsible for trying to corner Russia ;; the u.s e.u. with nato as their foil , and using fascists to achieve their aims , millions died fighting fascists during world war two ,and here are the west collaborating and supporting them killing their own people .
    hypocrisy doesn,t even begin to describe it..???
    uracan, 01 September 2014 1:46pm
    The Ukie army has been surrounded by the militias for months with lack of supplies and hopeless situation finally taking its toll.

    This si very good news for the militias. Troops freed up can now be moved to other combat area.

    It has been good going for the militias:

    Militias of southeast Ukraine's Novorossiya army have killed or wounded 100 pro-Kiev troops and shot down one Su-25 attack aircraft and two Mi-8 helicopters on the approaches to Mariupol, the militia headquarters said on Monday.

    The Novorossiya fighters have also seized two tanks, about six multiple launch rocket systems, two armored personnel carriers, up to 14 artillery guns and mortars, up to 24 vehicles and two depots with ammunition, the militia headquarters reported.

    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/747529
    Jeremn -> uracan, 01 September 2014 2:33pm
    But the Ukrainian armed forces are still shelling civilians, as this woeful image makes clear (a very, very sad picture).

    Why, when the ATO has evidently failed? Is it because Ukraine is being pushed to win the war, or are the far-right National Guardsmen and volunteers just trying to hurt as many people as possible.

    Ukraine needs peace, if that comes through the rebels winning, so be it. If Kiev won't talk, that will be the only way.

    uracan -> Jeremn, 01 September 2014 2:40pm
    The tactic is the same. Kiev tries to enter a town. They are repulsed by the militias, Kiev responds by indiscriminately shelling the town for in their eyes supporting the militias.

    It seems Kiev does not see any innocents, you are either with us or against us.

    Jerome Fryer -> Jeremn, 01 September 2014 2:41pm
    Presumably the forces to the north, and immediately west of Donetsk, will be engaged by smaller numbers of rebels to keep them in place. Their supply lines will still be intact, so they'll keep shelling.

    The rebel counter-attack seems to be aimed at Mariupol and the region inland from the coast along the Sea of Azov.

    Jeremn -> Jerome Fryer, 01 September 2014 3:27pm
    They make keep shelling for the moment, but I guess they might then be hit by rebels released from operations against the airport and trapped UA troops. That artillery is pretty slow moving and vulnerable.
    Antidyatel, 01 September 2014 1:47pm
    So Russian tank columns are attacking Luhansk Airport. So we know the exact location and know that there are many tanks. I wonder how American satellites work. Can they only see random regions around the globe? No control at all. we don't even hope to ask about the route these tanks took from Russia. I know it is hard. Russians on the move are so fast that images are blurry.
    Black Cat, 01 September 2014 1:47pm
    "Russian tank battalion"? Not even allegedly? Do we just take the Kiev sitreps's as pure fact now?

    Kiev is unlikely to agree to give into demands from the rebel leaders

    Why? if all they want is a level of autonomy then why not "give in" rather than prolong a dangerous and senseless war?

    Kiev has drawn up a peace plan but wants to win militarily against the armed separatists and only then offer broad concessions for the Russian-speaking people of the east. However, the Ukrainian military offensive has led to hundreds of civilian casualties as both sides use heavy artillery.

    If they are planning to offer exactly the concessions the rebels re asking for then why do they need to "win" first? Isn't this just a lot of unnecessary death? And wiping out your enemy before you talk to them is not a peace plan - it's a war plan.

    Kiev appeared to be making gains in recent weeks before what looked like a boost from Russian forces to aid the rebels and retain the balance of power on the ground.

    Translation: "Kiev lied about the extent of its victories, and when the truth that they were losing became undeniable, they invented a phoney "Russian invasion" to hide their failure?"

    A little more objectivity and scepticism from this paper would not come amiss.

    palindrome -> Black Cat, 01 September 2014 2:08pm
    Great post. And the answer to all your questions is: because Kiev wants peace, but only after the ethnic Russian population has been wiped out.
    Myshka -> Black Cat, 01 September 2014 2:08pm

    A little more objectivity and scepticism from this paper would not come amiss.

    Well said!

    Akash Hasda, 01 September 2014 1:51pm
    Things are going to get more rough for Ukraine.

    In Russian :

    Ukrainians are warned of possible rolling blackouts, just like in the 90s due to low reserves of hydro-power and fuel for power plants.

    http://economics.unian.net/energetics/957600-ukraintsev-preduprejdayut-o-vozmojnyih-otklyucheniyah-sveta-kak-v-90-h-godah.html

    Poroshenko should have negotiated with separatists at least in the beginning. Even Russia negotiated with Chechnya for three years before that drunken buffoon Boris Yeltsin declared war.

    ProfWilliams, 01 September 2014 1:51pm
    This AZOV battalion is now surrounded by troops who know how to shoot back, the Army of the Donetsk Peoples Republic. (ITAR-TASS)

    I imagine these "voluntereers" of the brave AZOV battalion would like nothing better than for peace to break out right now, the sooner the better.

    monkie -> ProfWilliams, 01 September 2014 3:10pm

    This AZOV battalion

    by this AZOV battalion i take it you mean the azov battalion that shares its flag/logo with the 2nd SS Panzer division "Das Reich"

    the azov battalion led by a proud ukrainian neo-nazi?

    sad news indeed...

    Milogrim -> nuspeak, 01 September 2014 2:04pm
    Verified photos of troops and hi-res satellite imagery would do for starters. And no, DigitalGlobe pics with pixel blobs belong to Iraqi WMD dossier.
    elti97, 01 September 2014 1:54pm
    One does wonder if it makes sense for the west to keep playing by its self-imposed rules or if they will be temped to play dirty, like the Russians. There must be many in the Pentagon and US administration who would like to begin an unannounced, unauthorized program of significant military aid to Ukraine and begin unfairly and discriminately targeting Russian businesses and interests under the guise of safety concerns and other BS. Russia will get red in the face and accuse the US of hypocrisy, lying etc, and of course they'd be right. But no one outside Russia would care because it will be such an obvious a case of pot and kettle. Obama's not running for re-election so he has little to lose and these things can be set up to allow for deniability. And Russia isn't going to start a direct military confrontation with NATO over a sliver of Ukraine.

    At the moment it's only one side, namely Russia, which is playing dirty, and getting away with it. Report -> Share this comment on Twitter -> Share this comment on Facebook

    Black Cat -> elti97, 01 September 2014 2:04pm
    Do you doubt there is a programme of significant military aid to Kiev already in place? Blackwater, Polish mercenaries, CIA and NATO advisers, US ration packs - the signs are all there. But it's only an issue when Russia does it, so you can be forgiven for not noticing.
    Black Cat -> elti97, 01 September 2014 2:36pm

    You're wrong. NATO countries have provided non-military aid like sleeping bags, night vision goggles and ration packs. In other words, peanuts. There is zero evidence of any US-backed mercenaries or real military aid. What I'm talking about is significant military aid, i.e., sophisticated weapons, logistical support and covert operations.

    Officially this is true. But officially Russia hasn't sent so much as a grenade to the rebels. If you believe the Russian are acting covertly it would be incredibly naive not to assume NATO is doing the same.

    ID075732, 01 September 2014 1:54pm
    If Russian had invaded as claimed in this article and the repeated claims by Poroshenko and his Bandera acolytes, there would be a completely different situation in Ukraine.

    Russians operate in battalions of 400 men and dozens of armoured vehicles, followed by convoys of support vehicles (tanker trucks, communications, field kitchens, field hospitals etc) all this kit would be visible.

    There would have been endless radio communications for NATO to intercept.

    There would be a no fly zone imposed and hundred of expats would be at Boryspil airport trying to get out of the country.

    None of this has happened. What has happened is the Ukrainian military has vanished. Soldiers and officers alike have taken off their uniforms, abandoned their vehicles and weapons and are doing their best to blend in with the locals.

    So no Russian invasion, but yes an imminent collapse of the of the coup regime in Kiev, unless they seek a peaceful settlement. As Lavrov says it's still possible. Why don't the US and EU insist Poroshenko does this?

    edelamsee, 01 September 2014 1:55pm
    According to the OSCE, there are no Russian soldiers and no arms are crossing the frontier. Everything else are lies perpetuated by western media , the Pentagon and Ukrainan government. Memories seem to be very short lived. Weren't we shown satellite images of weapons of mass destructionunder Hussein? Images during the Kosovo war which all turned out to be fake? This overthrow of the Ukrainian government, the encroachment by NATO, all this has been in planning for the last 15 years. One of the images shown the day before yesterday is an exact copy of a photo which was presented by the same papers two years ago, claiming it clearly showed Assads forces! Todays resolution of satellite images can show a coin 300 miles below. So these pictures are a simple joke, which the guardian and other gullible (?) papers use for their cheap propaganda.
    Annacat -> edelamsee, 01 September 2014 3:27pm
    Alas, most people have no ability to think for themselves and swallow what the "free" Western mass media serve them.

    ColdPenguin putin_the_fabulous, 01 September 2014 2:19pm

    Why go to the trouble of a Dodgy Dossier or Gulf of Tonkin scam when a few anonymous tweets is all it takes to convince the impressionable.

    JMWong, 01 September 2014 2:07pm
    After spending five billion dollars to destabilise Ukraine, after carrying out the coup in Kiev last February including the planting of a false flag in the form of snipers murdering unarmed policemen and protesters, after organising the murder of the population of Eastern Ukraine, after organising the shooting of MH17, the US has deserted its agents, Poroshenko and Yatsenyuk.

    Now, Poroshenko has no alternative but to discuss directly with the representatives of Eastern Ukraine, somwpething which his paymaster, the US, absolutely refused him to do.

    But now that his paymaster has deseted him, the talks might end the months-long civil war, a war created by the US state department.

    tubeist- dan -> JMWong, 01 September 2014 2:09pm

    Why would the paymaster demand alignment with the EU, tovarisch?

    ID075732, 01 September 2014 2:17pm

    The truth is out there regarding the civil war in Ukraine, but you won't hear it coming out of Cameron's and Obama's mouths.

    But people can tell NATO in Cardiff exactly what they think.

    Yannage -> ID075732, 01 September 2014 2:47pm

    yeah try that protest in Russia

    steveblack, 01 September 2014 2:19pm

    Too late she cried…..

    Russia is no longer interested in peace….why should they be…they are winning…putin is not going to grovel to ask that crimea be left russian….

    Since merkel stabbed putin in the back when she and america threw out the pro russian crook and installed their own pro western crook …..putin does not want to just win the war in the ukraine….. he thinks and with good grounds that he can destroy america and the eu…

    He is just going through the motions…he is waiting for the debt tsunami to hit the eu and america…both america and the eu are tottering…their banks wobbling ….their populations angry and rebellious….

    One thing is certain the eu and america can not maintain the welfare state and fight an economic war against putin and a conventional war against isis…and the longer putin drags on this side show ukraine….the more compound interest and depression saps the eu and america….

    Not just those idiots obama cameron hollande merkel are going to regret interfering in the ukraine but the entire west…especially people on benefits and dependent on the insolvent state…

    ..including myself and every other poor working class innocent….

    frannie5, 01 September 2014 2:20pm

    I'm awaiting the US satellite images of these Russians.....A few grainy photos, that could be anywhere, are hardly evidence....Putin may well be lying however, Kiev has been caught out in 'porkies' so many times that I'm inclined to believe Putin....

    I don't doubt that Russia is giving support to East Ukraine but, after Iraq, Libya, etc. the west has lost any moral high ground....

    A word from Obama could ensure Kiev would allow an immediate ceasefire and then, if Russia/Rebels continued to advance there would be only one set of 'villians'.....

    Systematic, 01 September 2014 2:21pm

    DONETSK, September 1. /ITAR-TASS/. A group of five or six NATO officers has been blocked in the town of Mariupol in the Donetsk region, a spokesman for the Donetsk militia said on Monday.

    "Their exact location is unknown for top secrecy reasons. But they obviously cannot leave Mariupol as all junta commanders and special units have already left the city," the spokesman said.

    ITAR-TASS has not confirmed this report from other sources yet. (...)

    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/747548

    Bauhaus -> Systematic, 01 September 2014 2:32pm

    These NATO officers, are they on holiday? Did they get lost?

    zelazny, 01 September 2014 2:21pm

    "I don't care if we are part of Russia, part of Ukraine or part of Mars," said Irina Filatova, as she took her daughters to school. "The main thing is that we can live in peace and all of this can finish."

    But the US and Nato won't let this happen, because war forms the central part of their national essences. Since the day of my birth 63 years ago, the USA never has seen a single day of peace. Not one single day.

    The land of the "free" and the home of the fat, anti-depressant using fearful, murders people by the millions for the profit of a few, while the vast majority of Americans struggle to survive.

    And when the American people complain, the US sends in the troops against them, too, such as in Ferguson, Missouri, and in black ghettoes every day. A young black person growing up in Compton has less of a chance of making it than a Palestinian child growing up in Gaza.

    AXWE08, 01 September 2014 2:22pm

    Is the Guardian seriously reporting that Russian tank formations are at Luhansk and activily engaging with the Ukrainian army? On what information is this based? It has been repeated many times that if Russia intended an invasion of Ukraine we would all know about it pretty quickly. The giveaway is that we are supposed to believe that a war would take the WW2 form with men and tanks crossing a border. The modern AirLand Battle would be totally different from this and on a par with the Shock & Awe tactics used by the US in Iraq.

    fedupwiththeliesalso, 01 September 2014 2:24pm

    I have been doing a lot of thinking on this whole subject now since at least since MH17 was shot down.

    Now I have been pro Russian since the start. My history clearly shows this. And on the dm boards my profile name was I only want/the brutal truth.

    I was wrong. I still don't see russia as an aggressor but I am no longer anti EU/USA/IMF.

    This may take a while but I will try to explain.

    Firstly the blame for this situation sits squarely on the Ukrainian presidents. All of them not just the most recent ones. My reasoning being that they allowed a few people become ridiculously rich in a country that was virtually broke. It also happens that these same few are also the ones with the political power.

    Because of the corruption of the Ukraine government the country is already in the mire.
    They need a bailout. This all leads to Yanukovych and the IMF/EU deal and also Putins deal.

    The IMF offer seems unduly harsh to someone not versed in economics like me.
    But after some study I can see that for Ukraine to get back into the black they are necessarily.

    Putins offer was much more favourable for a corrupt president. But I honesty believe it was an offer made in good faith.( but I cannot be certain). The people across the whole country, not just the west were starting to realise their European dreams and Yanukovych slammed that door in their face. Thats why the protests started and quite frankly I can't blame them. They were peaceful at first but Yanukovych got aggressive and sent the police in who were extremely violent. This caused the protesting to grow to a massive scale. And the far right groups took advantage. They are "accused" of some major acts of violence we all know the details so I wont get into that. But its their involvement are what has caused this to spiral out of control. And its their continued involvement that is keeping it going.

    For Ukraine to work the east and the west MUST stay together. There is no other option. Separation works for the east but is cataclysmic for the west. All the industry and mineral wealth is in the east. Ukraine cannot work without the east. So basically the west of Ukraine will do anything to stay together even something as (to my eyes) stupid as bomb them into submission. The east predictably (after seeing what the right wing groups are "accused" of , and coming their way) took at arms.

    You have Russians who are seeing their relatives being attacked by (again) the far right groups. For me their respose is natural.

    This response it the so-called aggression on russias part.

    My answer is.

    Remove the far-right groups from the field and then they can talk.

    Black Cat -> fedupwiththeliesalso, 01 September 2014 2:30pm

    Yanukovych did not slam the door in the face of those aspiring to the EU. The complete reverse is true.

    When Russia offered him the better deal, Y did not turn down the EU,he asked for more time to consider. Then Moscow suggested an arrangement that would allow Ukraine to take both the EU and the Russian deal.

    But the EU said "no.". The EU said it was either their way or the highway. An act of hubris so ridiculous even John Kerry has said it was a major cause of the current difficulties.

    If the EU had taken a different line at that point, then likely none of this would be happening.

    Juritiba -> fedupwiththeliesalso, 01 September 2014 2:36pm
    You say separation Works for the East and is cataclysmic to the West.
    You forget the West has Europe to look after them.

    The central question here is Do we go West, Do we go East? Some powerful people in the West were convinced to go West and they are taking the whole West with them.

    So remove the current government, bring back the elected President sitting in Russia and start all over again with elections.

    But, Poros and Yats should answer for what they are doing to the country.

    Black Cat, 01 September 2014 2:25pm

    Anyone who cares about human life and world peace wants this unnecessary war to end ASAP. So the news that Kiev is talking to the DPR for the first time ought to be cause for at least a little optimism.

    So, why are so many commenters swamping this slightly hopeful moment with yet more accusations of "Russian invasion"? And why does the Graun say "Russian tanks" when even the BBC calls them "pro-Russian tanks"?

    Is this about wounded pride in the west, having been for the first time in a while placed firmly on a losing side? Or is there really - God helps us - a bid to steamroll over any peace process with empty allegations and war cries?

    Craig Riley -> Black Cat, 01 September 2014 2:44pm

    The choice of language is vital in reinforcing an idea. Hence why every time the rebels are referred to, they are called 'pro-Russian', since it links their activities with Russia with each use. In all the conflicts which the West supports a side, they will always be referred to in more romantic terms, such as pro-democracy, or rebels, or independence-fighters.

    If you want to see absolute double standards, compare the language used when the former Ukrainian government was accused of killing protestors, to how the current government are viewed when actually killing protestors or even neutral bystanders.

    avenir, 01 September 2014 2:26pm
    MIke Whitney over at counterpunch has an interesting article published over the weekend about what's going on there:

    Putin hasn't sent tanks and artillery into Ukraine. He doesn't need to. The militias are loaded with battle-hardened veterans who know how to fight and who are quite good at it. Just ask Poroshenko whose army has been taking it in the shorts for the last couple of weeks. Check out this blurb in Thursday's Itar Tass:

    "Over the week of August 16-23, the self-defense fighters of the Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics seized 14 T-64 tanks, 25 infantry fighting vehicles, 18 armored personnel carriers, one armored reconnaissance and patrol vehicle, one Uragan multiple launch rocket system, two Gvozdika self-propelled artillery guns, four D-30 howitzers, four mortars, one ZU-23-2 air defense system and 33 vehicles." (East Ukraine militias seize large amount of Ukrainian armor, Itar Tass)

    Get the picture? The Ukrainian army is getting beaten to a pulp, which means that Obama's glorious "pivot strategy" just slammed into a brick wall.

    Bottom line: Russia has not invaded Ukraine. The propagandists in the media are just trying to hide the fact that the Novorussia Army Forces (NAF; aka-the pro Russia separatists) are kicking ass and taking names. That's what's really going on. That's why Obama and his gaggle of miscreant neocons are in a furor. It's because they don't know what to do next, so they've returned to their default position on every issue; lie like hell until they settle on a plan.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/08/29/obamas-catastrophic-defeat-in-ukraine/

    The western media are not exactly reliable witnesses.

    August

    [Aug 31, 2014] EU threatens Russia with unspecified new sanctions if Ukraine crisis worsens

    Looks like some guardian readers started to understand that this more about revolt of Russia against neoliberal order and the USA efforts to put a neoliberal leash on Russia. Ukraine in this case is only a tool in the complex global game.
    The Guardian
    MacCosham -> StellaBe, 31 August 2014 5:54am

    She is absolutely lamentable. No backbone whatsoever. Similar to Obama.

    Absolutely agree. She is bending over to the US military industrial establishment, at the expense of her own people, world peace and justice.

    Indeed similar to Obama, who promised to stop the US from starting wars only to start several more, including the civil war in Ukraine.

    MacCosham, 31 August 2014 5:47am
    So the usual US marionettes in European governments are ready to put their economies into freefall populations into misery, for no other reason than a ridiculous mud-slinging campaign about phantom "Russian troops" in Ukraine coming from habitual and proven liars:
    -Poroshenko, who was proclaiming "total victory" many, many times, when his troops were being surrounded and annihilated time and time again, who promised "peace in hours, not in days" etc etc
    -The US government, who lied about WMD, lied about Ghouta, lied about going into Libya to protect civilians, lied about the Tonkin incident, lied about the Maine, etc etc
    ID075732 -> MacCosham, 31 August 2014 6:30am
    Yes,

    The US government, who lied about WMD

    Also yesterday Russia has launched a media attack on Western countries, demanding to know why international investigators have yet to publish the black box data from a Malaysian airliner that was shot down over eastern Ukraine in July? The Malayan government have already concluded it was the Ukrainian's who did it.

    Michael Bociurkiw a Ukrainian Canadian of the OSCE was among the very first people to reach the Malaysian jet's wreckage:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-mh17-michael-bociurkiw-talks-about-being-first-at-the-crash-site-1.2721007

    Also analysis of the 'Shooting Down' of Malaysian jet

    http://www.anderweltonline.com/wissenschaft-und-technik/luftfahrt-2014/shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/

    Tacty -> MacCosham, 31 August 2014 10:47am
    they were doing it with kosovo..and in their empty heads kosovo looks like some shining example of "success", because bullying serbia is not so hard...and it looks like they like it...you know, here comes the big western boss, lining up the serbian government, and they were trying the same recipe with russia...it shows enormous level of arrogance...
    MacCosham, 31 August 2014 5:48am
    I hope that we Europeans are not so stupid to see the obvious, that this game is mostly economic that the main global rival of the US is not Russia, but the EU and that the goal of the US is to destroy (or at least greviously harm) the EU by pitting it against Russia.
    Maratyunusov -> MacCosham, 31 August 2014 6:06am
    Europeans are not stupid ... but European politicians really are ...
    Erik Glantz -> Astar1337, 31 August 2014 10:31am
    This is the most unusual invasion in world history, the first invasion in which armored divisions can sweep across Ukraine without any witnesses or evidence whatsoever.

    All of the cameras of US satellite technology, all of those owned by the population of Ukraine, all of the cameras of the hundreds of US military advisors in Ukraine, all of the cameras of the western mass media, have been rendered inoperable by an insidious new Russian military technology! Good heavens, with all our military spending we have not even a 1910 Kodak in a wooden biplane to document an invasion. The US should reveal what it knows about Russia's new invisibility technology. NATO must dispatch bipartisan squads of Parisian painters sworn to document the invisible invasion, and smuggle the paintings back to Paris, where we hope that cameras can still photograph things. Russia may have already invaded the entire planet without anyone seeing or even suspecting it! The US right wing must immediately return to protecting the homeland from ghosts.

    Oh save us, warmongers, save us from ghosts!

    ID075732, 31 August 2014 6:01am
    Russia calls again for a peaceful settlement to the civil war in Ukraine, sends in humanitarian aid, provides sanctuary for refugees fleeing Poroshenko's genocide, tries to find a solution to the growing Ukraine gas transit problem for Europe.

    Retaliatory Russian sanctions have already tipped the EU economy into recession. So under the order of Obama, Merkel is again talking about more sanctions against Russia? For a civil war in Ukraine, which was instigated and is being maintained by the US?

    It's the logic of the madhouse, or the NSA has some serious sh*t on Miss Merkel?

    JMWong, 31 August 2014 6:14am
    The Ukraine crisis cannot worsen because the soldiers of the truncated Ukraine are surrendering their arms and military equipment to the armies of the republics of Donetsz and Lugansz. Soon the war will be over and Porioshenko has lost it. Even the US has run away.
    Trurl -> JMWong, 31 August 2014 6:57am
    Is he responsible for the re-introduction of conscription?

    Or was it a decision by the Rada?

    Either way, they'll be about as popular as a green pickle thing on a McDonald's burger in Moscow.

    John Hopkinson -> JMWong, 31 August 2014 8:56am
    I think this whole "the Russians are coming!!!!!" thing might be a distraction from the fact that, as you point out, the Ukrainians appear to be losing. Yet another US foreign policy disaster.
    Maratyunusov, 31 August 2014 6:33am
    Ukraine is a good example what happens if businessmen trying to expend own business comes to political power. For them, lives of civilians ... especially their children are nothing if IMF requests such conditions for more loans to Ukraine.
    Asimpleguest, 31 August 2014 6:42am
    EU has a choice - STILL has a choice... to STOP Petro Dolarshenko to kill Ukrainian citizens!
    Otherwise - EU's corrupt politicians prove that they are Amer puppets... dragging EU into recession and supporting a criminal in Kiev!
    tomasfairfax, 31 August 2014 6:47am
    Why is NATO with its mouthpiece Anders Fogh Rasmussen, the European Union, with as many mouth pieces as there are member states and not quite behind the scenes, the ringmaster United States, engineering a confrontation with Russia?

    Rasmussen bleats that it is unacceptable for "foreign" troops to be in another country's territory and yet fails (presumably) to see the irony with the comparison to Iraq or Afghanistan or Syria. E U Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso, mumbles that, "it isn't too late for a political solution", presumably with the implied threat that E U troops would go trundling over the border grab Ukraine (Unlikely, just looked what happened the last time a European "leader" had the same idea). All the while in the background some 3000 miles away, the neoconservative planners in the Whitehouse and in the Pentagon, move steadily towards their ultimate objective of absorbing Ukraine into their tangle of nations collectively known as NATO.

    The television and media coverage for this American written script, ensures that the image of the Russian "Bear" Putin,
    is given prominence in this almost constant ratcheting up of tensions, fear and mistrust in the minds and opinions of the public, particularly in Europe who see this manufactured threat to their homes and safety as a stark reality. In fact, the threat is almost as real as the threat of Islamic State tanks and jihadist fighters sweeping across Europe and invading the UK.

    The reasons for this constant scaremongering from the western governments is to

    The problem that the governments of the west now face is being able to find a balance between what the people will actually believe and tolerate, as against the "Boy who cries Wolf" syndrome, but in trying to find that balance, the western governments are losing.

    Dustin James -> tomasfairfax, 31 August 2014 6:59am
    There is irony. There is hypocrisy. But it does not matter. Russia must accept this. It is no longer a superpower. Didn't they hear about the "new world order"? The west runs the planet now.

    I know what I said is crude and is not what Russians want to hear, but it is the truth. Ukraine will be assimilated into the west in a covert manner. Ukraine won't be accepted into NATO officially, but will nonetheless. I don't know why Russians don't accept the inevitable and assimilate themselves. Futile not to do so.

    coffeegirl, 31 August 2014 7:16am
    New sanctions based on what, on, according to Poroshenko, 100 men manning 1000 tanks( 1 man per 10 tanks - even Hollywood is shy to go that wild in its action movies) or to the Guardian's own Shaun Walker who reported yesterday "Russian soldiers are nowhere to be seen..." just because Rasmussen & the rest of the EU and US political cabal, many with record of seeing WMD in Iraq, tell us so? They lied about Iraq, they lied about Libya, they lied about Syria. Now they lie about Ukraine.

    Just remind please how is investigation on MH17 going? The silence is deafening, where is Tony Abbot ( Barroso, Cameron, Obama, etc - use your 'favorite' lier name) indignation now?

    DomesticExtremist, 31 August 2014 7:21am
    So the EU intends to show Putin what for by shooting itself in the head, economically speaking.

    What an execrable collection of mediocrities we have for leaders.

    Unelected, unaccountable and unrepresentative.

    Real statesmen would be calling for Poroschenko to stop shooting
    and start talking - our lot simply take his outlandish claims at face
    value and start impotently sabre-rattling toward the nuclear armed
    Russia.

    What could possibly go wrong?

    Dustin James -> DomesticExtremist, 31 August 2014 7:28am
    Look at what Germany, France and the UK export to Russia as a the % of their total exports and Russia to them vice versa. It's asymmetrical. Russia is an almost exclusively an oil exporting nation. Other than weapons, that's about it. Especially in the long run, the balance of trade does not favor Russia. America has glut of extra gas it wouldn't mind selling to the EU.
    Miron -> Dustin James, 31 August 2014 7:41am
    "America has glut of extra gas it wouldn't mind selling to the EU."

    At 3 times the price. Obama can't print dollars to subsidies gas used in Europe.

    Unless we get a war in Europe we can't sell gas there. And we do make one, a lot of Europeans, particularly needy, will die out.

    IlicPetar, 31 August 2014 7:41am

    She (Angela Merkel) said the penalties could be in any of the business sectors the EU has already said could be targeted.

    Excuse me for being stupid, but does this mean that the EU member states so far have only harm from business with Russia. Because only if it is true, introductions of these new sanctions can be understood as a threat to Russia only . But I am sure that no one really thinks that the EU companies, in dealings with the Russians, so far behaved as a humanitarian non-profit organizations. Therefore, the new sanctions are in fact a greater threat to the European economy than the Russian. As the article says, the United States applauded the EU

    welcomed this way the European Council's consensus today to show strong support for Ukraine's sovereignty

    It is possible that the EU will applaud the USA when one day she began to protect the sovereignty of the European Union. But at least so far it has not been the case. That such protection of the sovereignty of Ukraine threatens the sovereignty of the member states of the EU for now has only Slovakia made it clear:

    the Slovak prime minister, Robert Fico, called sanctions "meaningless and counter-productive" and threatened to veto any new measures that harmed Slovakia's interests

    Therefore, to the American "welcom to the European Council's consensus", Slovak Prime Minister, Robert Fico, answered: You're welcome! So much about "consensus".
    DIPSET -> Akash Hasda, 31 August 2014 8:08am

    EU says one week for Russia to reverse course in Ukraine or face new sanctions.

    That is because the battle has been lost on the field.

    Ask yourself, despite this information being reported by other sources including our own BBC, why the Guardian is not reporting on the civilian deaths and the military deaths on Kiev's side.

    Another two weeks and all this will be over. The powers know this and are powerless to stop it.

    Unless they want a real war with Russia, inclusive of a nuclear one.

    Interesting times…..;-)

    Oquendo, 31 August 2014 7:48am
    I find preposterous that a person like Mr. Pososhenko seems to bring "truth" to our "leadership"
    They react to his words without even asking him to stop bombing his own cities, or burying his deserters in mass graves as the Russian TVs are showing every week and our TV channels hide without questions.

    Or better, why Mr. Poroshenko does not stop bombing and opens up the east to everybody's press and releases russian journalists kidnapped by Kiev.

    The sad truth is that, yet again, we are being lied to. Our bosses have lied on so many things for so long that they have no credibility left.

    Mr. Poroshenko does not release the conversations of his air traffic controllers with the Malaysian plane. Why?

    The Polish Government does not report on their controllers messages with the same plane which they directed to fly over Donetsk while Euro-control closed air space over the Crimea.
    Why? Because we have a lot to be ashamed of.

    Now we watch over plans to get rid --one way or the other-- of 8 million people, the Russian population of those republics and Europe in very real terms backs, finances and promotes the Pogrom.

    The way forward is not what this leadership does.
    This "Politburo", which every day brings back old times revivals and lack of moral values.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgcPpbVS-ck
    Indeed, we have a lot to be ashamed of.

    Vladimir Kamensky, 31 August 2014 7:54am
    The strange thing is happening with the Western powers. When criminal Kiev junta quietly destroyed the city of Donbass, killing not so much the rebels but civilians,- all was silent & normal , although in the center of Europe was really the what is name's " genocide".
    But when the rebels went on the offensive, so once all roared as uptight wasp swarm.
    Farfetched information,that Russia invaded Ukraine, passes for reality, showing as a trump card 10 stray paratroopers, which incidentally exchanged finally on 60 Ukrainian soldiers that crossed a couple of days ago the Russian border.
    MacCosham -> andresh, 31 August 2014 9:15am
    If "butt of all jokes" Poles, apartheid Baltics and other US bootlickers want to impose sanctions, impose them yourselves! Go ahead! Ban all trade with Russia, stop travel, do what you want. Why should the rest of us torpedo our economies to satisfy you hysterical nationalist grudges?
    ploughmanlunch, 31 August 2014 8:37am
    Surely now is the time for Western Powers to press Poroshenko to announce a ceasefire. He didn't want to do so earlier because the 'rebels' were on the retreat and he feared that it could work to their advantage as they would have an opportunity to regroup.
    Now, it appears that the demoralised Government forces are creaking and would benefit from a pause in the fighting.
    Another good reason for a ceasefire is that less people get killed.
    ID075732, 31 August 2014 9:04am
    With headlines like

    Ukraine president: Europe nearing 'point of no return'

    And the US calling the shots in Ukraine. There's no hope for peace, reality and truth to emerge to carry the day.

    U.S. will stand by Ukraine in face of Russian aggression, Biden says

    "I came here to Kiev to let you know, Mr. Prime Minister, and every Ukrainian know that the United States stands with you and is working to support all Ukrainians seeking a better future. You should know that you will not walk this road alone. We will walk it with you."

    Vice President Joe Biden, April 22

    The US selected client stooge Poroshenko:

    May 26, 2006,

    Deputy chief of the US mission in Kiev Sheila Gwaltney addressed the Department of State describing 'Poroshenko as "tainted by credible corruption allegations."

    Asimpleguest -> Dennis Levin, 31 August 2014 9:19am
    the BIGGEST threat to world peace is the financial mafia from WS who is financing NATO and is corrupting the politicians

    octogenarians and nonagenarians warmongers who dictate the politics playing with (destroying) millions of lives

    http://online.wsj.com/articles/henry-kissinger-on-the-assembly-of-a-new-world-order-1409328075

    Shaneo, 31 August 2014 9:15am
    I guess all Putin can do is tell himself, "if I hadn't offered protection to Snowden and hadn't stopped Kerry and Obama from destroying Syria, then I wouldn't be targeted like this".

    Lesser leaders would have given in to US imperialism long ago.

    lids -> Shaneo, 31 August 2014 9:22am
    Probably his gravest error is turning his back on the US dollar. Saddam and Gaddafi died for the same.

    He really is brave, but US/UK/EU are making it easy for him to dump the dollar.

    No doubt, in my mind, his life is now in danger for the humiliation he is causing our useless politicians.

    arpito, 31 August 2014 9:24am
    The new sacred cow of the west is "territorial integrity" except of course when they to the destabilization and aggression, re Iraq and Syria and Yugoslavia. How long can they fool the public with cheap slogans and lies? - i guess forever, since their populous is already braindead
    Popeyes, 31 August 2014 9:24am
    There is no evidence to suggest that the Russian MIllitary is operating in Ukraine. However, Washington has decreed that the U.S millitary will go into Syria to fight terrorists in a sovereign country without the approval of President Assad. He has stated that there are "no borders" when it comes to protecting American citizens. By the same logic, there are thousands of Neo Nazi militants operating on Russia's border, which could be said pose a threat to the people of The Russian Federation. As Washington does not recognise a country's "borders", surely by U.S standards Russia if she wanted would be perfectly entailed to do the same.
    SHappens, 31 August 2014 9:27am
    Normal democracy in the EU.

    Porochenko and Barroso, who were not elected by anybody but installed, meet to establish what the future of the EU will be in relation to the Ukrainian crisis.

    Poroshenko who is currently shelling his own citizen is invited to the EU meeting and is allowed to make a speech, ask for military support and more funds to kill even more people.

    Meanwhile Russia is accused again and again without proof again and again.

    All this to please the US who injected money to destabilized the whole EU and give a sense to the declining ever lying NATO's expansion, at EU's costs.

    And they dare threat with more sanctions, ridiculous never killed anybody but this is no reason to commit suicide.

    alpamysh -> SHappens, 31 August 2014 9:32am
    Poroshenko got well over 50 per cent of the vote in an internationally supervised election. Don't lie about something anyone with a laptop can check. It simply makes you look like a fool.
    Maratyunusov -> SHappens, 31 August 2014 9:50am
    Result of "internationally supervised election" in Ukraine was made in Washington month before the elections.
    Antidyatel -> alpamysh, 31 August 2014 10:17am
    He has got 50% in the election in which only 50-70% could participate. Out of this only 60% actually participated in the elections. And now out of this number 54% voted for Poroshenko. SO his 50% support is an interesting number in perspective. Less than 20% of the total population is actually supporting him
    Trurl -> Antidyatel, 31 August 2014 10:21am
    They will love him even less now that conscription has been re-introduced.
    Hottentot -> alpamysh, 31 August 2014 11:54am
    Appreciate that you are new to CiF but please, be a good boy and don't call people liars
    jimmywalter, 31 August 2014 9:34am
    The Ukraine's illegal, genocidal government is the problem, not Russia. Notice how the propaganda above states as fact without any supporting facts or links to supporting facts that have been independently varivied! On the internet, outside of the main stream media, you can find all sorts of proof that the Ukraine govenment shot down the airliner, has been painting old soviet tanks as new and claiming an invasion, and more.
    And what business is it of the EU? "But this is the price to pay"?! Where is the vote or popular support for the EU shooting itself in the foot for the US and UK war machine? The sanctions are hurting the EU much more than anyone else!
    This is the centuries old policy of the UK to prevent an Eurasian power, divide and conquer. The US has been threatened by the EU and wants to take it down a peg or two.

    Russia does not want war with the EU! The US caused a revolution in the Ukraine that has destoryed it! The leaders of the Ukraine are neo-Nazis.

    Like Iraq, Libya, Syria, et. al., are you better off before or after US democracy interventions???

    arpito, 31 August 2014 9:49am
    Re: comparison of the current Ukrainian situation to appeasing Nazi Germany before WWII.

    None of the overrun countries wanted to join Nazi Germany. This is self determination at work. Ethnic Russian regions joining the federation because their language was outlawed and their grievances brutally suppressed.

    This is what happens when the EU or any other community of nations is foolishly doing USA's bidding. The end result is exactly what Washington wanted in the first place. Them replacing Russia as the major trade partner and the reigniting of the cold war. The European leadership, especially the paranoid Poles, fell for the ploy. Hook line and singer. My condolences!

    Putin will end up with more territory,not because he was the aggressor but because Russian minorities were victimized. The cold war will be back and its only a wet dream of the American imperialists that history will repeat itself. A multi polar world is emerging and the West

    Horacy, 31 August 2014 9:50am

    After a lengthy briefing by Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko, who warned "full-scale war" was imminent if Russian troops continued an advance in support of pro-Moscow rebels

    What does he actually mean by that? Hasn't he and his oligarchs colleagues been waging a full scale war against the civilian population of the East Ukraine for 5 months now?
    Or is he going to start advancing on Moscow now?
    Trurl -> Horacy, 31 August 2014 10:03am
    It means that they have re-introduced conscription so they can now send unwilling people to fight in a war.
    Those new troops will just end up running away and leaving more equipment for the pro-separatists.
    PekkaRoivanen, 31 August 2014 9:50am
    There is no return back for Ukraine. Poroshenko΄s "point of no return" is meaningless.

    EU politicians believe that Ukraine can unite again under a new oligarch despite the Maidan, new armed forces like National Guard, Kolomoyskis battalions, Right Sector militias and the old regular army. In the East there are the rebels and, according to NATO, 1000 Russians who make Kiev and EU panic.

    There is no return back.

    There should be a vision, how to future would look like. EU and Poroshenko do not pursue future vision, because they do not have it. They they fight to keep the old vision which does not exist any more. It is like Soviet Unions collapse in smaller scale.

    Horacy, 31 August 2014 9:54am

    The European Council called on Russia "to immediately withdraw all its military assets and forces from Ukraine" and urged a ceasefire.

    Russia has been urging a ceasefire since the beginning of the murderous attack on Ukrainian civilians by their own government.
    edwardrice -> Horacy, 31 August 2014 10:18am
    Russia "to immediately withdraw all its military assets and forces from Ukraine"

    Reminds me of the US telling Saddam to give up WMD he didn't have.

    Or the US demanding Iran give up it's non existent nuclear weapons program.

    Russia would have to invade Ukraine, bomb some of Kiev's forces, and then withdraw to meet US demands.

    And the hypocrisy is too much to bare.

    alpamysh, 31 August 2014 9:54am
    Although I did not agree with most of Meersheimer's article in Foreign Policy, he did bring up one undoubtedly correct point: Russia is a declining power. It has been unsuccessful in creating an economy based on something other than oil and gas. It has failed to create a sound agriculture. When a huge country like Russia has to import Polish apples, that says it all. Moreover, Putin is putting pressure on the one group that might get him out of his predicament--the urban middle class in Moscow and Piter. And now, hilariously, the Kazakhs are talking about leaving the Eurasian Union. That half their population is Russian, just as it was in Ukraine may have something to do with it. Oor main problem in future may be keeping the RF together, not blocking its aggression.
    Shaneo, 31 August 2014 10:00am
    Putin will be around long after poroshenko is assassinated by the svoboda / right sector fascists who protect him.

    They are already threatening to stop murdering East Ukrainians and turn on him, unless he bows to their demands.

    How will the western media spin this contradiction when it finally happens?

    Imaginations at the ready!!

    Trurl -> Shaneo, 31 August 2014 10:07am

    How will the western media spin this contradiction when it finally happens?

    Ukraine President Assassinated by Own Nazis
    EU To Consider More Sanctions Against Russia After Lunch.

    Akash Hasda, 31 August 2014 10:06am
    I don't know why they're talking about Russia's economy. Ukraine's economy has a far more immediate effect on the outcome.

    Ukraine's finances are at a breaking point.

    http://www.bne.eu/content/story/comment-ukraine%E2%80%99s-finances-are-breaking-point?piano_d=1

    edwardrice, 31 August 2014 10:07am
    Ukraine is bankrupt failed state. The EU and US backed a coup that brought in an ultra-nationalist dysfunctional regime that decided to wage a war, using Neo-Nazi battalions, on Ukrainians who opposed the foreign backed coup in Kiev.

    Why is the EU supporting Kiev? Why should Europeans be made to suffer financially to bailout Ukraine oligarchs and keep a bunch of fascists in kKev in power?

    Trurl -> edwardrice, 31 August 2014 10:09am

    Why should Europeans be made to suffer financially to bailout Ukraine oligarchs and keep a bunch of fascists in kKev in power?

    So EU leaders can look tough and talk tough.

    IlicPetar -> edwardrice, 31 August 2014 10:24am

    Ukraine is bankrupt failed state. The EU and US backed a coup that brought in an ultra-nationalist dysfunctional regime that decided to wage a war, using Neo-Nazi battalions, on Ukrainians who opposed the foreign backed coup in Kiev.

    What's not strange. Ultra-nationalist regime that uses the neo-Nazi battalions in the fight against other nations can come to power only in bankrupt failed state.
    esevato, 31 August 2014 10:14am
    George Bush was totally immersed in the Middle-East with utterly stupid and unachievable goals ; President Obama seems to be content with trying to destroy the best health- care industry in the world, while the world is catching on fire all around, and instead of the president, the military- industrial complex in the deriver seat, again what did we expect.

    WE (the West) should have made a deal with Russia, because most of Eastern Ukraine is Russian anyway - and they were ADAMANT not to live under the present Ukrainian leadership of oligarchs and neo- fascists.

    It did not take a genius to figure out that the new military great power of Russia and its extremely talented leader will not sit this out. And there you go - enjoy watching the new 21st Century, so- called hybrid warfare playing out right before your eyes.

    lids -> esevato, 31 August 2014 10:20am
    Bang on in every way just wanted to add the three steps of war.

    Currency War
    Trade War
    Military Conflict

    It is nor so well known that we are many months/years into currency war. We are also well into trade war. If Ukraine is accepted into Nato against the wishes of the people we will be moments away from step three.

    alpamysh, 31 August 2014 10:19am
    Hilarious how folks on this list talk about poor Russia being 'encircled', Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Ukraine, Turkey (and perhaps now Kazakhstan) didn't move on their four legs to surround Russia.

    They were there all the time. They are reacting to the way Russia acts--in a pretty uniform way. If you have no friends in your neighbourhood--well, it may not be the fault of the whole neighbourhood. It may be you.

    SoloLoMejor -> alpamysh, 31 August 2014 10:24am
    You are too tribal in your outlook to be taken seriously
    SoloLoMejor, 31 August 2014 10:19am
    The US has spent 5bn USD interfering in Ukraine, has planted it's economic specialists in Kiev and has set up a CIA outstation there. They have funded extremist elements in the Maidan movement to instigate the coup, caused the elected President to flee and instantly recognised the coup regime.&nbsp; Broadcast media has been taken over and opposition political parties have been banned.&nbsp; The US corporate machine is moving in behind and taking over key Ukrainian assets,&nbsp; its economists are working on dismantling what the Ukrainian people recognise as their social state structures.

    That's the only invasion going on.

    Trurl -> alpamysh, 31 August 2014 10:27am
    Do you realise that Ukraine has just re-introduced conscription and that young people are starting to leave the country to avoid it?

    (The draft is easy to avoid if you have money: just bribe a doctor to make up a serious illness.)

    SomersetApples -> Trurl, 31 August 2014 10:40am
    Porky Poroshinko's son has been reported living in London. That should keep him out of the draft.
    esevato, 31 August 2014 10:28am
    If American and European intelligence communities did not see the rise of Russia under Putin, that's probably the most dismal failure in a long time.

    No, we did not have to cozy up to Putin but at least should have listened to his concerns about The Ukraine. And then we started totally alienating him with helping the coup in Kiev. Many historians with no access to the WH tried to warn the leadership in blogs and wherever they could - to no avail.

    Weak leadership and petty bickering in Europe, a distant and inept leadership in Washington, a rising, but ignored Russia and the West- supported coup and a divided Ukraine created the possibility for a perfect storm - which of course came and now it will be pretty hard to put it out.

    Trurl -> esevato, 31 August 2014 10:33am
    A fair and fine analysis until you wrote:

    and now it will be pretty hard to put it out.

    The eastern regions are lost.
    Ukraine will split into those regions wanting closer ties with the EU and the east who will align more with Russia. Ukraine doesn't have the money and resources for a long war.

    ubiktd Jon, 31 August 2014 10:32am ,
    nice bit of balance from the Guardian then,
    all pro war escalation in the Ukraine but nothing on the 100s of protesters in Newport protesting against NATO.
    Nice.
    lids -> ubiktd Jon, 31 August 2014 10:37am ,
    Here is footage aggressively against Merkel in Dresden protesting against her leadership, No War With Russia.

    Opinion is turning against Merkel fast.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wSMhGE_Mpk

    ubiktd Jon -> lids, 31 August 2014 10:42am ,
    well you what they say.

    You can fool all the people some of the time,
    and some of the people all the time,
    but you cannot fool all the people all the time.

    Sourcrowd -> lids, 31 August 2014 11:04am ,
    The majority of germans supports tougher sanctions. It is not unusual that there is protest when politicians hold their speeches (at least outside of russia).
    StickyBastard -> ubiktd Jon, 31 August 2014 11:42am ,
    nice bit of balance from the Guardian then

    Guardian does not do balance. Just State Department stenography, phantom reporting and minor warmongering.

    grandchester, 31 August 2014 10:34am ,
    Washington will, of course, do anything to preserve the petrodollar
    Thing is some of the biggest economies on earth have been making agreements with each other to move away from using the U.S. dollar in international trade…and this is going to have massive implications for the U.S. economy.

    Use Of Chinese Currency Growing In Africa

    Who do you think is Africa's biggest trading partner? It isn't the United States. In 2009, China became Africa's biggest trading partner, and China is now aggressively seeking to expand the use of Chinese currency on that continent.
    China And Japan To Use Own Currencies In Bilateral Trade

    The BRICS Plan To Use Own Currencies When Trading With Each Other China and Russia Use Own Currencies In Bilateral Trade
    China and United Arab Emirates To Use Own Currencies In Bilateral Trade
    India To Use Gold To Buy Oil From Iran

    What will happen if the U.S. dollar's reign as the world reserve currency comes to an end?

    The demise of the dollar will also bring radical changes to the American lifestyle. When this economic tsunami hits America, it will make the 2008 recession and its aftermath look like no more than a slight bump in the road. It will bring very undesirable changes to the American lifestyle through:

    1. massive inflation,

    2. high interest rates on mortgages and cars,

    3. substantial increases in the cost of food, clothing and gasoline and

    4. a much harder time financing its debt. Right now, there is a huge demand for U.S. dollars and for U.S. government debt since countries around the world have to keep huge reserves of U.S. currency lying around for the sake of international trade but what if… the appetite for U.S. dollars and U.S. debt dried up dramatically? That is something to think about.
    http://www.http://www.munknee.com/shift-from-u-s-dollar-as-world-reserve-currency-underway-what-will-this-mean-for-america/

    Shaneo moncur 31 August 2014 10:51am
    Straw man argument. Russia has never had a problem with being surrounded by other countries, it just has a problem with being surrounded by NATO - which is just a tool for US foreign policy.
    Poro_the_Looser, 31 August 2014 10:41am
    http://youtu.be/HwpBCwl60js

    Story told by one of the Ukrainian neo-Nazis how they tortured 'separatist'. European leaders are just fine with that.
    Commentator6 -> Tacty, 31 August 2014 11:12am
    Actually it is Russia who will pay the long term price.

    The Russian economy is going into recession and with additional sanctions applied for the latest aggression the economy will be increasingly damaged.

    "(Reuters) - Russia's economy has contracted in annual terms for two months in a row, the Economy Ministry said on Friday, adding to concerns that Russia may be heading for recession as western sanctions over Ukraine bite.

    In a weekly macroeconomic monitoring report, the ministry estimated that gross domestic product had contracted by 0.2 percent in July compared with a year earlier, following a 0.1 percent fall in June.
    The ministry's estimate of negative growth in June as well as July contrasts with its earlier estimate of 0.6 percent growth in June, following 1.3 percent growth in May.

    "It's quite a sharp revision," said Dmitry Polevoy, chief Russia economist at ING. "Generally this is a worrying sign suggesting that the economy is continuing to lose steam.""

    The decline in economic growth has coincided with a surge in capital outflows and slumping investment, linked by analysts to the Ukraine crisis and the impact of western sanctions.

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/22/uk-russia-gdp-idUKKBN0GM19L20140822

    "American bank Morgan Stanley said in a research report "escalation puts the 'investibility' of Russia into question. "In our worst case scenario involving full sanctions, a material portion of the listed stock market in Russia could become uninvestible for many investors"."

    http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28986360

    From here it's all downhill for the Russian economy.

    Poro_the_Looser, 31 August 2014 10:54am
    http://youtu.be/0ozdz7fMdXI

    Ukraine Crisis: Donbass. Chronicle of Genocide. [ENG SUB]

    Published on 18 Aug 2014
    Extensive war crimes in Donbass committed by Poroshenko and his army of murderers from July 27 to August 14, 2014. Kiev's warmongers continue genocide of civilian population of Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics. Most of the footage and interviews you will see in this documentary film have never been shown on mainstream media of any country including Russia and Ukraine.

    Please share!

    Hottentot, 31 August 2014 10:57am
    What has the US promised Merkel which they ultimately won't deliver on? As for Cameron, he is just being the good little poodle doing the US bidding, as always.

    Fico, Slovak's PM is right, sanctions are meaningless and counter productive, and Mogherini, Italian's foreign minister is also talking sense. It has to be hoped more agree with these two people, and veto any further antagonism towards Russia.

    alpamysh -> Hottentot, 31 August 2014 11:00am
    They certainly have affected the rouble, the MICEX and RTS.
    idance, 31 August 2014 10:58am
    An accurate analysis of the situation in a letter signed by Dutch intellectuals
    grandchester, 31 August 2014 11:01am
    The US made the enormous error over the past few years of provocatively helping to organize the ouster of an elected pro-Russian government in Kiev, and was openly trying to move Ukraine, a former state of the Soviet Union, into the US orbit, even making it a member of NATO -- a Cold War organization expressly created to contain and threaten Russia. And Russia reacted exactly as the US would do in a similar situation to this perceived threat to its security.

    Truth is, we all know how the US reacts when governments in its "back yard" start to act independently. When Fidel Castro and his guerrillas ousted the corrupt fascist dictator Fulgencio Batista in 1958, the US immediately began plotting his overthrow, even sponsoring an invasion in 1961 -- the Bay of Pigs fiasco.

    wombatman, 31 August 2014 11:03am
    Why don't the EU punish those who broke the agreement brokered by the EU themselves back in February.

    That agreement would have led to peaceful elections quickly, no military actions against anybody, retrun to 2004 consitution and would have preempted the present situation, even the loss of Crimea.

    The agreement was signed by the then President (who unlike the present one was democratically elected by elections held throughout Ukraine) and three of the major opposition politicians.

    And who broke it or caused it to be broke by the weak opposition politicians? Unelected unrepresentative right-wing ultra-nationalist thugs who hijacked the Maidan protests for their own ends. And sadly such groups still wield disporportionate influence in Kiev.

    grandchester, 31 August 2014 11:06am
    It is, after all, the US that maintains arms and troops on bases in Europe, and that has been pushing for new nations along Russia's western border to join NATO (Russian troops are all in Russia). It is the US that has been installing missiles along Russia's borders -- missiles that are designed to shoot down Russian ICBM's, making that country vulnerable to a US first strike. It is the US that has put a nuclear-armed navy right off Russian shores in the Black Sea (Imagine the uproar in the US if Russia were to put a whole nuclear-armed naval battle group in the Gulf of Mexico!). It is the US that has imposed major economic sanctions on Russia before even one Russian soldier was in Ukraine. And it is the US that sponsored the overthrow of the elected government of Ukraine. These are all acts of American, not Russian aggression.
    tiojo, 31 August 2014 11:10am

    The European Union has threatened Russia

    In her first comments after being appointed the EU's foreign policy chief, the Italian foreign minister, Federica Mogherini, stressed the need to work for a diplomatic deal with Russia.

    It is good to see Ms Mogherini talking some sense. The mutual escalation of threats and sanctions is going nowhere. Everyone knows the situation in Ukraine needs a political solution. It's about time our politicians came up with some constructive proposals.

    President Poroshenko, egged on by the Americans and Poles, seems only interested in a military victory over his own people. He has made no political proposals for a future for his country. Why?

    Poro_the_Looser, 31 August 2014 11:14am
    http://youtu.be/eqSEn2_fEOE

    Good news for anti-Nazi resistance: Army of Novorossiya is growing stronger and planning offensive actions against pro-European Ukrainian occupants. Many thanks to anyone who supported people of Donbass and Lugansk! This is also your victory!

    Robert Looren de Jong -> Poro_the_Looser, 31 August 2014 12:07pm
    Meanwhile, the Financial Times claims the Netherlands is to join Britain, Denmark, Latvia, Estonia and Norway in forming a 10,000 strong Nato-led rapid reaction force to try to top Russia redrawing its borders.

    Sources have told the paper the team will include ground troops as well as air and sea support. Canada is also interested in taking part, the FT said. The force will be led by Britain.

    The paper says British prime minister David Cameron will announce the plans for the force during the Nato summit on September 4-5 in Wales.

    The Dutch defence ministry has not yet commented on the claims. The Telegraaf said on Sunday its sources in The Hague had also confirmed the report.

    - See more at: http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2014/08/the_netherlands_set_to_join_na.php?#sthash.NciXljrL.dpuf

    umweltAT2100, 31 August 2014 11:36am
    Poroschenko is following a very simple transparent strategy to get NATO/EU/US military support, and that, before or during the NATO conference in Wales this week, by claiming that thousands of Russian soldiers and tanks have invaded East Ukraine.

    This way the current Ukrainian Civil War that Kiev has been waging against the Russian speaking Ukrainians in the eastern break-away self-declared republics of Donezk and Lugansk – and as such is an internal matter that has to be negotiated with the Separatists – can suddenly turn into small, defenseless, little Kiev bravely defending itself against a foreign invading power – a war against Russia – and thereby can appeal to NATO/EU/US for intervention, arms and money – our taxpayers' money!

    The article in ARD says (excerpt, roughly translated from German):
    Poroschenko makes new accusation: Thousands of Soldiers, Hundreds of Tanks
    The claims of the Ukrainian military are hard to prove. Should a strong Russian Military presence in Ukraine be proved, this would put pressure on the EU to support the regime in Kiev.

    Poroschenko erhebt neue Vorwόrfe: "Tausende Soldaten, Hunderte Panzer" | tagesschau.de
    Die Angaben der ukrainischen Streitkrδfte sind kaum nachprόfbar. Sollte eine starke russische Militδrprδsenz in der Ukraine nachgewiesen werden, wόrde dies den Druck auf die EU erhφhen, die Regierung in Kiew zu unterstόtzen.

    http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/ukraine-poroschenko-102.html 30.08.2014 ,
    StatusFoe, 31 August 2014 12:04pm
    Informative article here http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-29/has-ukraine-shot-itself-foot-gas-pipeline-deal about new law passed by Poroshenko to enable the privatisation of Ukraine's gas pipeline network; Chevron "rumoured" to be interested. The article also points to circumstances indicating Victoria "fuck EU" Nuland is lobbying for Chevron in Ukraine. Chevron wants to frack the South East.

    The situation surrounding the pipeline deal is reminiscent of the tactics of the United Fruit Company in the mid and late 1960s. Radically right-wing governments were installed in Central and Latin America and that corporation gained control over those countries' main export, bananas.

    Unless there's a serious raprochment, it's looking increasingly likely that there'll be major gas shortages in large parts of the EU this winter, including Germany, which could wreak economic havoc.Chevron and co would be wringing their hands with joy with the fracking machines at the ready.... but of course fracking and liquid natural gas from overseas couldn't replace Russian natural gas supplies. The countries that provisionally signed up to South Stream, but which are now hesitating under US pressure, will have had enough and give the green light irrespective of what Washington and the EU's energy commissioner say.

    kenlinuk, 31 August 2014 12:34pm
    The Eu is now the greatest threat to peace in Europe. It's expansionist policies and election of Donald Tusk to a position of power means that the fate of Western Europe is now in the hands of agressively anti-Russian people from frankly backwards countries. Such treaties are what caused the great war in Europe, and East Europe is no more stable now than it was then. The EU's support for a political coup in Ukraine shows the lengths that they will go to to increase their influence. It is certainly time for Britain to leave the EU, and thankfully I think that it will happen -- hopefully before we are dragged into a war started by east European thugs. The education system in some of these countries is appalling. It is a mistake to think that we are dealing with sensible and rational people, as even the briefest exposure to Ukrain's post coup leadership will show -- "death to enemies", Ss style torchlit parades. These are the people who would seek to draw us into a war with Russia. These people have influence with the eu now, and now we should leave for our own preservation and dignity.
    achacachi, 31 August 2014 1:15pm
    So the US/EU initiated and financed a coup as well as started a civil war in Ukraine because their elected government refused to sign a treaty with the EU and now US/EU is blaming Russia for the consequences of this putsch?

    What`s even worse is that for a lot of people this makes sense and they blame Russia as well.

    Gil Matos-Sequν, 31 August 2014 1:41pm
    Well the EU can ponder this, in an interview for television President Putin has called for statehood talks form Eastern Ukraine. Lets see if this will be interpreted as escalation or deescalation.

    So the EU can put that in their pipe and smoke.

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/Putin-calls-for-talks-on-statehood-for-eastern-Ukraine/articleshow/41349870.cms

    dion13, 31 August 2014 2:00pm
    BERLIN, August 31, /ITAR-TASS/. Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Canada have called for denunciation of the Russia-NATO Founding Act of 1997, the German weekly Spiegel reported on Sunday.

    According to the publication, this step will make it possible to increase the number of troops NATO can deploy in the territory of the former Eastern bloc states.

    Sarah7591Wilson -> dion13, 31 August 2014 4:28pm
    Poland: a country of Russophobes, which tried to invade and conquer Russia once and failed, and has never forgiven Russia for it.

    The Baltics: EU states which were in the forefront of the EU and US refusal at the UN two years ago to ban the glorification of Nazism

    Canada: country with the proportionately largest Banderist diaspora of Ukrainian Nazi collaborators in the world

    midnightschild10, 31 August 2014 2:01pm
    Let's see, NATO, the US AND EU are supporting the rebels in Syria but are not supporting the separatists in Ukraine. They also want an inclusive government in Iraq, but not in Ukraine. They have supported the autonomy of the Kurds but not the Eastern Ukrainians. They have never put pressure on Poroschenko to find a diplomatic solution. So far, Poroschenko's claim to fame is that he has no qualms when it comes to killing the citizens of Ukraine. Neither the US or EU have condemned the burning to death of the separatists in Odessa. They are in fact supportive of the Right Sector and Svoboda. Poroschenko dissolved the Parliment to get rid of any sympathizers of the Eastern Ukrainians making sure the citizens in Southeastern Ukraine will not be represented. This is what NATO now stands for, and are willing to sanction Russia because the Eastern Ukrainians do not accept the US/EU puppet government. The US likes to say the government is legitimate because it got 80% of the vote. Yet they say the Assad government is not legitimate although it got 80% of the vote.
    I am sure the citizens of Europe won't mind suffering through cold winters once it is explained to them that in 5 or 10 years the US will be able to take care of their needs.
    dion13, 31 August 2014 2:17pm
    BBC: Putin 'urges talks on statehood for east Ukraine'

    President Putin said the issue needed to be discussed to ensure the interests of local people "are definitely upheld". His comments came after the EU gave Russia a one-week ultimatum to reverse course in Ukraine or face sanctions.

    "Russia cannot stand aside when people are being shot at almost at point blank," he added, describing the rebels' actions as "the natural reaction of people who are defending their rights".

    He dismissed the EU's threat of further sanctions, accusing the EU of "backing a coup d'etat" in Ukraine.

    The West, Mr Putin said, should have foreseen Russia's reaction to the situation, adding it was impossible to predict how the crisis would end.

    SHappens, 31 August 2014 3:00pm
    We have agreed on a plan, so its realization must be pursued," Putin told Channel 1 TV, adding that the Ukrainian government "must immediately start substantial talks – not a technical discussion – on the political organization of society and the state in southeast Ukraine so that the interests of people who live there are protected."

    The plan, according to Russia's leader, puts negotiations at the center of the peace process. In a clear reference to the toppling of Viktor Yanukovich by the Maidan movement in February, Putin said that mistakes such as a power takeover should be avoided and called it the main cause of today's crisis.

    The Russian president called on Kiev to consider the upcoming autumn and winter period and think about the heating season. The devastated infrastructure of the southeast requires full repair otherwise people might just freeze to death, he said.

    What are the so-called European values then? Support for an armed coup, suppression of opponents with armed forces – so these are 'European values'? I believe our colleagues should be reminded of their own ideals," the president said.

    Systematic, 31 August 2014 4:04pm
    For those who were going on and on about a Russian Mothers' Committee stating that Russian troops were operating in Ukraine:


    In Ukraine, the volunteers able to fight are former Russian military, but the Russian Defense Ministry did not send anyone there, chairwoman of the Committee of Soldiers' Mothers Flair Salihovskaya. (...)

    "Do not say that the Ministry of Defense sends someone. Nobody will not send anyone. I am a member of the public council of the Defense Ministry, we go to meetings, there was no formal order. Those who fight there - I do not deny - are voluntary people. No one - neither the state nor the Ministry of Defence - sent aobody there, "- said Salihovskaya.

    Soldiers' Mothers Committee has denied the sending Russian of troops to Ukraine

    Of course the likes of JimmySands will predictably retort that she was viciously tortured by drunken FSB thugs to make these statements.

    Black Cat, 31 August 2014 4:38pm
    Whatever side one takes in this increasingly tragic farce, this Aug 26 presser by the DNR is essential viewing, and it gives the clearest insight yet into their version of recent events since the departure of Strelkov.

    Makes it clear they see this as a watershed, and covers their formation of what they now call a national army and not a militia.

    Makes it clear also how far behind the pace of events the EU non-response is lagging.

    http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/watershed-press-conference-by-top.html

    secondiceberg, 31 August 2014 4:44pm
    There are some shadowy figures in all this and they are not Russian. I am awaiting from the Guardian an in-depth personal history and analysis of Poroshenko, including the charges of corruption for helping his friends gain control of industries that belonged to the people of Ukraine. Is that what the E.U. and U.S. find so appealing about him? You must have some investigative journalists.

    Do 1000 Russian fighters constitute an invasion? What is the magic number? Is NATO going to attack France and other countries from which volunteers have come to fight with the separatists in East Ukraine?

    Does a Russian-made tank or carrier equate to a Russian-manned tank or carrier? Are there not plenty of Russian-made military tanks, etc., in Ukraine, west and east?

    Explain to me again, in detail and with evidence, exactly what justifies the disproportionate response of E.U., NATO to Russia. Please do not include what reporters claim they saw but did not provide photo's or coordinates for, nor supposed video images of what look like sand-boxes, again with no coordinates or context.

    BradfordRebel, 31 August 2014 4:48pm ,
    I don't think Putin has any aspirations to dominate Europe militarily. In my opinion, his only concern is to protect Russian interests inside the Ukraine and to prevent the ethnic cleansing, or just people cleansing if you want to be pedantic, of the populace of the Dombass region by Kiev.

    As Angela Merkel commented, Russian interests need to be respected and indeed, they are interests that have been established for a very long time. NATO's and hence the American's backed overthrow of the previous Russian friendly Ukrainian government is a huge blunder.

    It is a blunder because Europe is not the Middle East and there are enough of us, Europeans with both national and pan national identities, with a high degree of education to understand what is actually going on.

    The ultimate result of this blunder will be to embolden the collective European identity and its own interests over those of the Americans. I don't necessarily mean the current EU bureaucracy, which is viewed by many of us holding a European pan-national identity as undemocratic and in need of serious reform.

    A few years down the line we could very well see the people of Europe put two fingers up to the Americans and directly challenge their interests. Their meddling in the Ukraine, that may result in a wider European conflict, is perhaps a pivotal moment, a historical juncture that may lead to a very messy divorce.

    Hanwell123 -> BradfordRebel, 31 August 2014 4:56pm
    Nor is Europe a South American country where the US can carry out a bloody coup d'etat with impunity. Ot at least it wasn't until February this year.
    ,

    [Aug 31, 2014] Vladimir Putin has absorbed the West's 'consequences' and stepped up his aggression

    The article is a pure neoliberal propaganda junk, but some comments are interesting. Looks like conservatives generally are more resistant to brainwashing than I though and in some ways can give Guardian commenters a run for the money....
    Telegraph
    Orenthal, August 30, 2014 8:54 PM
    Mr. Peter Foster seems to have been following different news reports than the rest of us over this last year or so. There is a stark difference between the Ukraine region and those other regions he mentioned (Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia): it is that the CIA and the Germans spent billions of dollars to effect the overthrow of the Ukraine government as a way of extorting cheap energy out of Russia. And they compounded this crime by carrying out ethnic cleansing on the Russians living in the Ukraine region. Putin -- who is almost universally loved in Russia -- understands that when the Soviet Union was fractured, there were more than 25 million Russians living outside the protection of Mother Russia. It is his duty to protect these people from German schemes that would see these people turned into pitiful refugees. Anyone who thinks that NATO should march 1500 miles across Eastern Europe to mess around in the Ukraine region is insane. And if Obama thinks he should be spending $5 billion of US taxpayer money to overthrow governments 4500 miles from the US homeland, just so Germans can buy energy at below-market-rates, he's insane too. I wonder how many American families have to pay federal income tax to total up to $5 billion?
    Some Guy

    If the Ukranian people have to pick between 2 evils, than I would pick Russia. At least they wouldn't force them to take 100k African refugees per year, and high interest loans like the EU. The EU asks every country to pretty much give up their culture, and identity upon entering, so that they can be inundated with 3rd world immigrants.

    That is why I laugh when people think the west are "fascists" in the 20th century sense. It is a new dawn. The fascists are the ones that are trying to destroy European countries altogether, and that includes Russia and the Ukraine.

    Putin is right not to take Western Europe and the US seriously. There is no longer the guts necessary to stand up for ourselves. All the countries right now are being invaded by third world "people", and nothing is being done. The people of the West have been so brow beaten we will literally ostracize someone for standing up for the West i.e ourselves. Sure, we will beat up on the ME, but who couldn't... We couldn't survive a true war

    Sarastro92
    What a delight to see an impotent martinet like Foster bleating on the sidelines of history. You want encirclement of Russia, you want nuclear pre-emptive first strike, you want sanctions and confrontation, so you got it. Putin called your bluff and you're exposed as a loutish war criminal.

    Good. Thank you Mr. Putin.

    Orenthal > Sal befor
    Why should Putin fear Obama? The Ukraine region is 4500 miles from the USA homeland, and the USA has absolutely no interest in what happens in Ukraine. The Ukraine region -- homeland of Khrushchev -- is none of the US's business, and the only region the one-worlders seem to think it should be, is that they want to extort low-cost energy from Russia. Let the Germans pay market rates for gas, just like the rest of us have to do.

    colonelbonkers

    In WW2 Red Army casualties numbered upwards of 30 million, yet surrender was never on the cards.

    And we're threatening Russia with a mild recession........

    sonoran > colonelbonkers

    You've only got one side of the equation, the cost. The other side is what's at stake. In 1942 - 45 the occupation of the entire Russian nation by Nazi Germany was at stake.

    Now it's whether Russia allows one of the nations they consider to be in their sphere of influence (Russia owns 'em by their calculus) to wander off and associate themselves with the devil-spawn West. I don't think they'd be willing to expend 30 million of their citizens for that.

    But really in Russia it's almost always about the current "fearless leader" staying in power.

    Sarastro92 > sonoran

    No. We're talking about a neo-Nazi coup sponsored by the US State Department and NATO on the Russian border. That's Putin's red line. Serious people recognize that's a legitimate national security concern for Russia.

    Don't like it? Get ready for war. Putin's already crashing the EU agriculture sector. So good. Go for broke.

    Sarastro92 > Miguel526

    ISIS is a creature of the West and bankrolled by the Gulf "allies"... This could be shut down pretty quickly if the desire were there. But having a "new al Qaeda" only crazier, serves so, so many purposes. Look how Cameron is playing this hysteria. Don't expect any fast ending.

    Putin and Russia have the high moral ground in this confrontation. The West started it, and Putin's not a joker. He can strangle to decrepit EU economy if he's challenged; and he's ready to go to war to keep NATO and nukes out of Ukraine. For Russia, this is an existential crisis.

    But glad to know you're ready to fight WW III over this crap... most of us don't agree. I wish you and the other hot spurs would enlist and join the front lines yourselves. Keep us out of this.

    Old Crow

    The net result of the West's sanctions on Putin have been to drive up Europe's unemployment and exacerbate deflation. A few more sanctions and full blown depression will likely result.

    Sarastro92 > Old Crow •

    Uh-oh... You've been reading Ambrose Evans-Pritchard these days. And, of course, what you say is true. The EU economy, including Germany is on a downward trajectory. Sanctions against Russia have spawned counter sanctions by Russia that will break the camels back of the EU.

    Brabantian

    Utterly shocking, both this unworthy tripe in the Telegraph & that so many readers concur ... supporting the US-EU-Nato, neo-Nazi-including illegal putsch regime in Kiev, who have now bombed, shelled & butchered to death over 5000 civilians in East Ukraine, starting with burning dozens alive & even strangling a pregnant woman to death in Odessa on 2 May. Now there are likely 12-15 thousand Ukraine dead overall including both sides' soldiers / militia.

    Half of Ukraine speaks Russian; US-Nato's Kiev tried to outlaw that, menaced to destroy Ukraine's Russians; they have rights to separate. Putin's 'crime' if one, was that of failing to move in & partition Ukraine after the Odessa massacre; partition & Russian troops would have prevented Kiev killing thousands of civilians. Big puzzle is actually why Putin didn't fully invade; some fear that Henry Kissinger 'friend' Putin is US-Nato's secret 'fake opposition' partner in war & chaos, & most of us are deceived. May God help the people of Ukraine, and indeed all of us, as blood tragically flows.

    erik_ny

    I admire Vlad Putin, always have, he's a genuine Leader. We aren't supposed to have those major stuff is happening there.

    Putin must make the brainless exam-passing Ivy Leaguers at US Dept of State quite nervous... he looks like someone capable of settling a few scores and therefore must be demonized 24/7. The newsmedia slanders Russia endlessly, I've never seen anything quite like it.

    USA is so schizo now, it's simultaneously supporting and fighting ISIS -- have you ever heard of any country doing that? The news keeps telling us how "well funded" ISIS is but they never say by whom, LOL

    The world is a madhouse!

    odietamo

    This is quite frankly one of the most ridiculous articles I have ever read. Putin is not 'insane': on the contrary he is an astute politician who is fighting for the rights of Ukrainians who feel that their future lies with close ties to Moscow, who do not want to be associated with the western backed fascists that, with the aid of the USA and the EU, overthrew a democratically elected president. As frequent visitor to the Ukraine I believe that 'journalists'without a single clue about the country they are offering their ludicrous opinions about should not be published in print -- save your opinion for whatever deranged blogging site you choose to create.

    Mark Tolman > odietamo

    My thoughts entirely odietamo, The level of understanding shown by the author this article makes a laughing stock of The Telegraph. I, personally, only see Western aggression toward Russian borders. We are dealing with people who would shoot down an aircraft with 298 civilians aboard in order to blame it on Russia.

    Vladimir Putin has quite clearly put a roadblock on US attempts to take down Syria, He has asked who gave the West authority to Assassinate Gadaffi. He has set up the BRICS trading Bloc to compete with the Petrodollar.

    Amongst other events, it is easy to see why the West and it's so obviously controlled media is on an anti-Putin orgy.

    John Wells

    Russia has been calling for talks between the West Ukrainian mobs and the Eastern Ukrainians during this whole stand-off.

    John Wells

    We (the US) controls NATO, the same as the old Soviet Union controlled the Warsaw Pact. They did it with force, we do it with $$$$.

    John Sinclair

    I only wish British politicians would stand up to US aggression as well as Putin has.

    With this new cold war the EU has pushed Russia to the brink of a hot war and it won't be Russia that will be the loser.

    The US safe miles away on another continent is hoping to provoke another war in Europe, as it did last time, so that it can pick up the pieces again. Surely the Germans aren't going to be so stupid as to fall for this ploy a third time?

    volvoxglobator

    If you are pushing for more sanctions you may just find that Russia has no longer anything to lose in taking over eastern Ukraine permanently. But then maybe some people in the West actually want a nice big war with Russia to distract the population for the inevitable economic crash that they have only managed to postpone.

    In addition when faced with our own gay marriage loving leaders who tolerate paedophile MPs you may just find that Vladimir Putin is actually far more respected by the Western population than the propaganda merchants such as yourself would like to think.

    One Last Try

    If Brussels wants war, let them organise it. UK is ignored every time that it contests a EUbola enforced law, such as the power rating of vacuum cleaners, therefore, we must reply in kind: ignore them.

    We do not apply sanctions on Russia, wiping out the City of London as a financial centre, whilst France is selling them helicopters and ships and Germany selling them Mercedes.

    We tell them to stuff it.

    Raymond Chow > One Last Try

    Russia is fully capable of making their own ships and aircrafts. It's just cheaper to have the French do it in exchange for their oil and gas. All of the military equipment currently used by Russians are Russian made. Look at their ICBM's and ships and submarines and bombers and fighter planes and tanks and artillery pieces all the way down to hand held weapons and you'll see they're all Russian made. So these bs that Russia is dependent on the west for their weapons and all manufactured products is just BS. The west is more dependent on Russia because without Russian energy the west can not manufacture hence their "way of making a living" will suffer.

    hdgdggd

    The EU knew ten years ago that absorbing Ukraine into its Federal State ambitions would cause geopolitical problems with Russia. Yet they still did it. One can only assume that the EU wants war. And our treacherous political leaders in Westminster look like they will bow down to whatever the EU want. It is difficult to believe that the people of this country cannot see what is happening. The MSM don't help who are anti what is best for Britain at every turn.

    lgrundy -> hdgdggd • 8 hours ago
    "The EU knew ten years ago that absorbing Ukraine into its Federal State ambitions would cause geopolitical problems with Russia".

    Oh they knew the problems it would cause far longer than ten years ago mate.

    Read Fritz Fischer's 1960s historical masterpiece Germany's Aims in the First World War and see how prominently Ukraine featured in Germany's plans for its continental empire.

    volvoxglobator > sonoran • 9 hours ago
    Utter baloney. The West had no intention of doing anything but taking Russias resources and bringing the country to its knees. The West is now ruled by amoral gay marriage loving fascist war mongers who have paedophiles in high places protected. Frankly Russia has taken the moral high ground and you've lost your moral compass.

    sophocles

    Politicians of the EU, by following the US line of bringing Ukraine into NATO, have brought this on themselves, they knew right from the start that Russia was not going to stand by and let it happen, now we have a problem that need not have happened, the best way to solve it, is to advise Ukraine to hold a referendum on splitting the country into two halves, if the majority of the east want to go with Russia, then let them, if the vote goes the other way, then the ones who want Russian rule are free to go there.

    Longshanks

    When the 'old women of the EU' club, Merkel, Ashton & Lagarde get involved in anything, it's a disaster.

    Thinking they can get away with their EU expansionist dreams through the back door & stack a NATO border right up against Russia by simply ousting the rightful Ukrainian PM, was endemic of exactly where they are today. 3 old women against a 'lifetime committed patriot!' .. I know who my money is on & it's not on the 'dried out old women'.

    The rest of the EU all 27 countries follow in their wake, hanging on their apron strings & suckling like a load of sissy boys. Putin has absolutely no need whatsoever to play suckling pig. Who was it that said, 'when the ovaries dry up, all that is left is a very bitter ex-woman?' ... oh yes, me!.

    Warmongers Ukraine aside, it's no coincidence that 'these three & Baloney Blair have been messing in the Middle East' is it!.

    Dan Stockman

    I'm not sure why people think we should take a more aggressive stance against Russia for this action. Bear in mind, I am by no means a supporter of Putin or his regime, but then again, I'm not very trusting of our own governments. The United States invaded and occupied two countries with extreme military force, just south of Russia. Imagine if Russia invaded and occupied countries in central/south America. The Monroe doctrine would kick in, right? My point is, some how, we've created this idea that we are allowed to go swinging our proverbial dick around, but no one else is allowed.

    Furthermore, all you hawks out there, what is it you wish to do? Send troops? Start bombing rebel positions? Putin knows that the West doesn't want an all out war with Russia, he's counting on it, and quite frankly, he's right. Putin has the West in check. Obama and Europe's leaders are doing their best to keep the conflict isolated to the Ukraine, at this point that is the best we can hope for. Who gives a damn if it makes us look "weak", honestly? Why do you care so much?

    Needless to say, you hawks won't have to worry too much longer. Congress will come under the sway of Hawks more increasingly here this year, and then a hawk will take office in 2016.

    Then we shall have the beginning of the End. Damn, some of our leaders in the West love to create our enemies. They love to spread the fear and hate over them, to what end, I'm not sure. Welp, we've got two good'uns lined up for the next few years in ISIS and Putin. Get ready for some perpetual war friends, as if it hasn't already been that case for the last decade or more.

    Rally the troops, sound the battle cry, all hail the dogs o' war. It's coming even bigger. Count on it. Seems we love a good ol fashioned global romp this time of the century anyway.

    Dr Strangelove

    The real victims in this if war starts will be Europe, the USA have invested in oil and gas at home, Russia has enough oil and gas across their own country to more than supply their own need, where as Europe is the poor man that relies on every one else for its oil and gas. FACTORYS THAT CREATE ARMS NEED OIL AND GAS, if Europe engages in a war then it will very quickly run out of oil and gas, it would make good strategic sense for Russia to knock out all the pipelines and put the ME fields out of action, My guess is this they have already planned for, NATO might have bases around Russia but they are in the wrong place to protect Europe's energy supplies, my guess is they wont use nukes but use starvation tactics to begin with, well I would if Russian, modern cruise missiles that Russia have can knock out any supply ships without the need to use subs plus Russia will see that as revenge, it always annoyed them how the German U-boats managed to always knock out their supply ships while missing the ones meant for England. The USA may claim they can supply Europe with oil and gas but I don't think one ship will make it, I feel the war will be fought in Europe while both the USA and Russia will suffer little damage.

    Fak_Zakaix

    "Nor (unlike Mr Putin) are we prepared to suffer the recession and energy crisis that would be precipitated by inflicting extreme, crippling sanctions on Russia."

    This is your weak assumption. If Russia doesn't make peace with Ukraine the sanctions will be for good because the occupation by force of Ukrainian territory infringes one fundamental principle of post-war Europe. And doesn't Britain pride itself as being the country with the most principled foreign policy...?

    ChanceEncounter

    Who are you kidding with this article? For starters you think your readership is stupid and didn't notice the overthrow of a democratically elected Ukraine government, the overthrow backed by people of dubious character/beliefs (some would say Nazi) and cookies given out on the Maidan by politicians from another nation.
    Then there is the conscript Kiev army which doesn't appear to be able to do anything but shell civilians.
    If roles were reversed and it was pro-US citizens who were being shelled, the US would be bombing the hell out of Kiev by now.

    Who started this whole mess?

    ChanceEncounter > Fak_Zakaix

    Sure it is their right, but it is not their right to try and achieve it by disregarding their countries own constitution. They were less than a year away from an election. So if you didn't like the President vote him out!

    Suffice it to say the EU is broke and has internal problems of its own, so it will be years before Ukraine actually is allowed to join.
    Look how long it is taking countries such as Turkey to join and integrate. And these nations are ahead in line.

    sonoran > ChanceEncounter

    Russia has controlled politics in Ukraine for decades, the populace engaged in demonstrations when the Ukrainian government balked at an economic agreement with the EU. Why? because it was obvious that this was due to Russia exerting influence. Demonstrations are not "forbidden" in an democracy, they are a legitimate way to express displeasure with the government.

    When agents of the government decided they were going to bring in snipers and kill the demonstrators, the government's legitimacy was lost in the people's eyes.

    The government didn't represent the will of the people and was using force in order to quell dissent. When can a democratically elected government that has *obviously* been corrupted by the influence of a powerful neighboring State, be overthrown? You say only in an election, but the Ukrainian people say otherwise. The idea that the US and EU could have "orchestrated" this in a nation so completely under the influence of Russia incredibly naive.

    More than anything the Ukrainians were rejecting the foreign influence of Russia.

    ChanceEncounter > sonoran

    Nobody is saying you can't demonstrate - that is a strawman.

    Also you speak in generalities, the people want this, or the people want that or the Ukrainian people say otherwise. How do we determine this legitimately?
    In a civilized nation it is via the ballot box, not
    through confrontation backed by ultra-nationalists. It amazes me that this is so difficult to understand. It is also circular logic, if the will of the people was really as strong as you say it is, then there is no reason this couldn't be achieved via the ballot box.

    As for who shot who on the Maidan, that is an open question. Interestingly the new authorities in Kiev are very reluctant to investigate. There was an investigative piece on German State TV about this if you care to research it.

    I'm not denying that Russia has historical influence, after all Ukraine is and has been a non-aligned country as far as a buffer to NATO goes and it goes without saying Russia wanted this to continue. However lets not be ignorant about EU/US influence. Other than pastries on maidan we have the CIA director visit shortly after the overthrow. Not to mention US state dept involvement prior to the overthrow - intercepted calls relating to who would form the govt and various forms of paid political protest from NGOs etc.

    ChanceEncounter > sonoran

    Do you really think the uprising in the East is just a few hundred militamen?
    If that were true it doesn't say much about the Ukrainian army mobilised against them.
    Pretty obvious that in the east there is support among the population for the anti-Kiev resistance.
    All of this presupposes the new govt. is actually in charge, when you
    consider the position of some of Ukraines oligarchs who have their own
    militias the current situation is frightfully more complicated. In

    volution. See:
    http://pravyysektor.info/news/...

    With regard to public counter demonstration, I'll leave it to you to demonstrate against people with certain insignia on their sleeves - see how far you get.,

    digger > ChanceEncounter

    Chance
    you have answered your corner very well and though I hope the Ukrainians can prevail over Putin,you are correct in asserting that the former Ukranian president had only one more year to hold office.This man was elected and you have to feel that Baroness Ashton failed to heed the lessons of Georgia before she embarked on this dangerous journey that has led to this very dangerous confrontation.The noble baroness who has never held elected office is now able to sneak away from her disastrous potfolio and hand the baton on to another lame duck Eurocrat.
    Putin has the true Russian mindset that still prevails in Russia since Stalin and suddenly it seems that our 2 latest Nobel Peace prize winners,Obama and the EU have brought us closer to war than ever before and you need to understand the reasons for their award that akes it so ludicrous.
    Dangerous days ahead for us freedom loving Europeans and I suspect some very cold nights ahead in December when the 36 inch valves close on the various gas pipelines coming from the East to heat all the homes and power all the gas power plants in the West.

    ChanceEncounter > digger

    Yes, she is dangerously incompetent. Her reaction on this call with the Estonian foreign minister 'Gosh' says it all. Estonia itself is not really known for being super friendly with the Russians.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    dirkbruere

    Well, why don't we insist that Ukraine hold internationally supervised referenda on secession by Crimea and East Ukraine? Is it because both would say "Yes"?

    [Aug 31, 2014] The U.S. needs Russia: Instead of alienating Russians, we should be pulling them in by Jerome Israel

    Compare this with ferocious anti-Russian campaign that is waged by neoliberal presstitutes from Guardian... Good point about Psaki becoming new Baghdad Bob... It is clear that Poroshenko wants to internationalize the situation and turn it into a conflict between EU and Russia or, better, between the USA and Russia.
    August 19, 2014 | Baltimore Sun
    The U.S. needs Russia. This may sound peculiar coming from a person who spent 25 years at the NSA, almost half of those fighting communism. But our approach to Russia since the end of the Cold War has been unimaginative and aggressive. Politicians in Washington put on their Cold-War glasses any time Russia makes noise. It's time to archive those in the Smithsonian.

    Many notable academics agree that our policies toward Russia are flawed, but my conclusion - that we need Russia - is derived from the kind of work we mastered at NSA: carefully listening to and analyzing communications, in this case what Russians have said openly on social networks and in private conversations with me during a recent trip to Russia.

    Unfortunately, for Americans schooled in "exceptionalism," what they say is hard to accept. Many don't like us. They despise our government, our swagger and how we have bullied our way across the globe since the end of the Cold War. Russians were humiliated then; it's no wonder that I saw a Russian youth with his fist held high under a gargantuan Soviet-era monument: the Worker and Collective Farm Girl. Russians opine about the respect, power and authority they once enjoyed.

    Russians resent how NATO has brought Poland, the Baltics and other Eastern European countries under its wing. Rightly or wrongly, they continue to believe that at the end of the Cold War, then-Secretary of State James Baker promised Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev that the U.S. would not expand NATO "one inch to the east." To put this in more comprehensible terms, recall that less than 20 years ago this country was outraged by the prospect of China potentially operating the Panama Canal. Imagine China having a military toe-hold in Mexico.

    So, it's no surprise that roughly a quarter century after the end of the Cold War, Russians began to feel boxed in. Our on-again, off-again policy of deploying anti-ballistic missile defenses in Poland and the Czech Republic only heightened tensions. With NATO's expansion, the U.S. lost an opportunity to grow closer to Russia. The sad part about our feckless policy is that the chances of the American public supporting a war with Russia over Romania, Poland or the Baltics are slim to none.

    Ordinary Russians worry about Vladimir Putin, but will stand up for him when he is constantly labeled a "KGB thug." They detest State Department spokesperson Jennifer Psaki, but since she has become a favorite topic of humor, they were relieved when she returned from a recent week-long absence. What Russians seek from the U.S. is respect and problem-solving on a peer-to-peer level.

    The situation in Ukraine is a brutal regional conflict, which Russians and Ukrainians must work out for themselves. Eventually they will tire of civil war, given their deep cultural ties. Antagonizing Russia by trying to peel off Ukraine for the West is foolish given the larger strategic problems confronting the U.S. We need to reverse NATO expansion and put a new governing framework in place. We need Russia's expertise and influence in the Middle East. Mr. Putin helped us avoid a military commitment in Syria. And, have we forgotten that his government tried to warn us about the Boston bombers, the Tsarnaev brothers?

    Short of a policy change, Russia will continue to thwart us, undermine our currency and heighten tensions, creating a new Cold War that neither can afford. Oddly, the Russian people adore our music, movies, and even our fast food restaurants, and a large number speak English to varying degrees. One Russian friend cynically commented that all large empires need enemies. But is this the kind of enemy we want - especially now?

    Jerome Israel is a former senior executive at NSA and the FBI. His email is [email protected]. To respond to this commentary, send an email to [email protected]. Please include your name and contact information.

    [Aug 30, 2014] Praising Rebels, Putin Toughens Tone on Ukraine

    Note how much weaker the level of the commenters is and the level of discourse is in NYT then in Guardian... Please note that some neonazi comments (which got into "Reader Picks" category) that call for ethnic cleaning were allowed in the discussion
    NYTimes.com

    MarinaKhari, Moscow

    Donbass people do not exist for western media and governments. Donbass and Lugansk are daily shelled by heavy Ukr artillery, small children and civilians dying daily. Nobody over there cares. They are only interested if Russia gains anything seeing this as a direct loss for themselves.

    Bill Moore, Cabot Pa

    Hello,

    Washington DC started the whole mess in Ukraine by spending five billion dollars overthrowing the legitimate President in Ukraine and installing a puppet.

    I look for Russia to end it by taking over all of Ukraine.

    I'm a veteran of a war zone in the US Army, 75 years old, and I've worked with and against the Russian Army, the East and West German Armies, and the French Army, as an individual, by myself, on many expeditions.

    I have great respect for the Russians and the Russian Army. They're good people.

    Thank you for letting me rant,
    Bill Moore

    Reader, NYC

    Russia has repeatedly said that it will do its utmost to protect its interests, so there should be no surprise that it would support ethnic Russians fighting for their right for self-determination. One would have thought that Western leaders and the Kievans would have learned that what Russia says, it implements. It warned the West not to foment the February coup, and to adhere to the agreement with Yanukovich. Neither the Kievans, nor the West, listened--Crimea is now returned to Russia. Russia said that it would deliver humanitarian aid to civilians besieged by their own government, and it did. Russia warned, that failure to establish a cease fire and negotiate in good faith could have consequences--today the Kiev forces are in disarray and have lost ground.

    Europe has failed in their hope for a cost-free Ukrainian market. The US has failed in effecting regime change with no cost to itself. But, the biggest failure is the current Ukrainian government--broke, with decimated political institutions, with a deeply divided population, with a demographic disaster looming as a result of its policies, and little chance of economic recovery. The US is not likely to hand-over the $100 billion needed, and the EU has already said it would not. It would seem, that in such a situation Russia is more likely to come closest to its goals than any of the others.

    Harry Mazal

    I do not approve of Putin's methods and I am not even sure that I approve of his objectives, but somehow, somewhere the West got us in this situation.

    For Western Europe and America, the fall of the Soviet Union meant the end of communism and the end of Russia as a super power. For the Russians, it only meant the end of communism.
    By not understanding the Russian pride, we showed our lack of respect and treated our new Russian friends not as allies but as a minor power. That had little effect in the beginning as Russians were more focussed on "distributing" the State's assets at corrupted low prices.
    But the Russian pride still exists and we have not come to terms with this.

    As I said I do not approve of Putin's methods and his objectives of a great(er) Russia may belong more in the time of the Czars than in 2014, but we must understand that the Ukraine has a large Russian population, and for sure the Ukraine is in Russia's sphere of influence.

    Putin's Russia is not as democratic as most of the West, but neither is it as bad as the Soviet union, and certainly more democratic than some of our allies (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, etc).

    The people in the Crimea have not suddenly lost their freedom and human rights.
    We have more serious problems with the increasing threat of Muslim extremism and let us come to an understanding with Putin's Russia, treat it as an equal and turn Putin into an ally and together resolve the bigger issues in the world.

    EJZimmerman, Chestertown, MD

    Novorossiya is now HISTORICALLY part of Ukraine, not Russia. The Soviet Union, you may remember, began to dissolve in 1989. History doesn't stop just because some wish it to be so. Loyal citizens should leave, with help from Kiev, then with NATO help, I'd like to see the pro-Russians bombed out of eastern Ukraine.

    Eochaid mac Eirc, Cambridge

    It should be noted that Kiev has been shelling civilians, and, at least arguably, engaging in ethnic cleansing for months.

    These actions - pretty well substantiated in foreign/alternative press and on video sources like youtube and liveleak, nevertheless have gone largely under-reported in the American MSM.

    I believe it was an American official, not a Russian one, caught on tape a few months back hand-picking what is apparently the leader of a new puppet regime. It seems obvious that the US/NATO had its eyes on the Black Sea Fleet.

    Lest we forget, the US-backed coup occurred in a country no where near the US, but on Russia border - the second US effort at toppling Ukraine's government in a decade. The prior president committed the grave sin of not signing an agreement with the EU, instead taking what well may have been a better deal from Moscow.

    Lest we forget, Crimea, a majority Russian autonomous region that was part of Russia proper until the 1950s voted to rejoin Russia rather than be subject to the new regime in Kiev. Separatists in Eastern Ukraine had the same idea, and Kiev's response was brute force which has, it seems clear, turned into a wider war against the civilian population.

    I ask you - is Russia really supposed to let NATO-armed Ukrainian troops and neo-Nazi and perhaps foreign mercenaries attack and kill its own people because they were not a party to or in favor of the US-backed coup?

    Of course Russia is defending them.

    Why is the US attacking?

    [Aug 30, 2014] No one knows what Putin's up to, but sanctions are the west's biggest mistake by Angus Roxburgh

    For some reson this devites from "party line" displayed in the coverage by Guardian presstitutes like Shaun Walker take on the events... Compare with Praising Rebels, Putin Toughens Tone on Ukraine - NYTimes.com
    Aug 29, 2014 | The Guardian

    European Union leaders meet in Brussels on Saturday, and Nato heads of government in Wales next week, to formulate fresh responses to the dangerously escalating crisis in Ukraine. Their language will be pugilistic, but in truth Vladimir Putin is the only boxer in the ring. He has invented a wholly new type of combat in Ukraine, which has got the west confused and reeling. He dodges blows like Muhammad Ali, one minute claiming he has no control over the separatists, the next (just last night) calling on them to release "encircled" Ukrainian forces. What is he up to? No one knows.

    ... ... ...

    Sanctions against Russia have proved, and will always prove, worthless. The relentless desire to continue with them is cockeyed, since they hurt western companies and economies, and are of no avail in changing Putin's policies. They may well succeed in ruining the Russian economy, but what will that bring? More of the same – or worse. It was the humiliation of Russia and impoverishment of its citizens in the 1990s that brought Putin to power in the first place.

    And yet the delusion persists that sanctions can be widened and deepened, strengthened and escalated, until finally Putin caves in. But nothing in his character, or in Russia's behaviour in the past, suggests this will happen. The only outcome is that time is wasted on an endless search for new targets to punish, instead of grappling with the root causes of the conflict.

    Since sanctions don't work, and war is unthinkable (President Obama on Thursday explicitly ruled out military intervention), then only one viable option remains. If Ukraine is to become peaceful and whole again, and Putin prevented from carving chunks out of neighbouring countries, there needs to be political engagement with Moscow.

    There would have to be an immediate, total ceasefire by Kiev and the rebels, followed by talks on a constitutional settlement to protect the rights of the Russian minority.

    Selected Comments
    VengefulRevenant, 29 August 2014 12:09pm

    Redrawing borders, whether by outright invasion or by stealth, is utterly unacceptable.

    Unless NATO does it, as in Serbia/Kosovo. Then it's absolutely fine.

    Lastingline -> VengefulRevenant, 29 August 2014 2:10pm

    No parallel between the two. Silly comparison.

    igoraki -> Lastingline, 29 August 2014 2:32pm

    Whats the difference ?

    Albanians didnt want to be in Serbia. People from eastern Ukraine dont want to be in "new" Ukraine

    Serbia even used less force when fighting Kosova Albanians,no army was involved before the NATO air strikes, mostly police forces

    West came up with silly sui genesis excuse for Kosova

    MissSarajevo -> Lastingline, 29 August 2014 4:55pm

    Even more so. Kosovo is and always will be the cradle of Serbian culture and heritage. The US, EU and NATO used the Albanians, knowing they were terrorists, as their proxy army to ethnically cleanse Kosovo of all other minorities. They turned a blind eye to organ trafficking gangs. They turned a blind eye to drug and people trafficking. All this so they could build Camp Bondsteel. 24 km of Serbian land which the US stole from Serbia.
    This is theft on such a grand scale most people are totally unaware of it.

    jb10001 -> VengefulRevenant, 30 August 2014 2:15am

    The bullshit these Western politicians and their organs of propaganda would have us believe is absolutely nauseating!

    Reynardus . -> CityBoy2006, 29 August 2014 12:40pm

    Actually, the west is responsible for diminishing of much of the former dissent in Russia. So now it has to invent bogus Siberia independence movements. As a result of the EU/US actions many Russians that used to be Putin's critics nowadays think that dissent is something they cannot afford.

    imperium3 -> CityBoy2006, 29 August 2014 1:19pm

    Putin is playing chess while Western leaders are playing hopscotch.

    The apparent attitude among Western leaders is the similar infantilising approach they take to any other country that isn't toeing the line: Russia is a bad child, and increasing punishment will be applied until it behaves.

    This will not work, because sanctions that will seriously hurt Russia will also seriously hurt the West. It is also impossible to completely strangle Russia economically because they can just trade with China instead (who will never join these sanctions themselves). It is like the 30s where League of Nations sanctions were useless because the USA was not a member and generally ignored them.

    Putin knows that the only way the West can actually stop him from taking as much territory as he likes from Ukraine is either if they can get a genuine international consensus against him (I'm talking the whole world, not just Europe and North America) to apply serious economic sanctions, or deploy in force and threaten war if the situation continues. Our leaders don't have big enough balls for the latter, and the former can be easily avoided provided Russia does not engage in naked aggression (hence the smoke and mirrors) so as not to alienate its allies and trade partners.

    Hence why Putin engages in moves like the aid convoy, which mainly served to make the West look ridiculous in the eyes of the rest of the world (trying to hold up a legitimate aid convoy). And ensures that any Russian troops supporting the rebels are in sufficiently small groups that they can be handwaved away as a Ukrainian hoax.

    Mark my words, this guy does nothing by accident.

    greygoose -> imperium3, 30 August 2014 1:44am

    Or, we can refuse to be taken in by the hoax, tell it like it is and give the Ukrainians Javelin anti-tank missiles and the training to use them, and see if Putin can deceive dead conscripts mothers and wives. Not so hard after all.

    imperium3 -> greygoose, 30 August 2014 2:50am

    Not enough. The one thing we refuse to learn from Afghanistan, Syria and Iraq is that handing out weapons just makes things worse, because the weapons don't stay in the hands you gave them to, and in this case it just prompts the other side to ramp up their support. And the Ukraine has a serious corruption problem and has been one of the largest arms sources worldwide (mostly their army's old Soviet kit) so who's to say some of those Javelins won't wind up in the hands of, for example, ISIS?

    No. If you really want to keep Putin out of Ukraine, the only way to do that is to deploy a large NATO force on the ground, establish a line that the rebels/Russians can't cross without attacking NATO troops, then support the Ukrainian army in clearing the rest out. In that case, Putin attacking Ukraine is equal to attacking NATO, and a massive war ensues which Russia can't win. Of course the risk to that is that Putin doesn't back down and calls the bluff, but he's not that much of a gambler. More likely he would be content with painting it as a Western invasion of Ukraine, while withdrawing and preparing for the next round.

    5abi 29 August 2014 12:10pm

    If sanctions fail the 'west' can use the next weapon which it has used at many other places- start financing and arming Islamic fanatics within Russia.

    Jeremn -> 5abi 29 August 2014 12:21pm

    It was doing that in the 1990s, in Chechnya. Contributing to the problem, as usual. Look up the board members for the American Committee for Peace in Chechnya. Neocons all.

    Lawlight -> 5abi 29 August 2014 4:23pm

    Once armed of course, we can be confident they would fight only Russia? Err..!

    5abi 29 August 2014 12:10pm

    If sanctions fail the 'west' can use the next weapon which it has used at many other places- start financing and arming Islamic fanatics within Russia.

    Jeremn -> 5abi 29 August 2014 12:21pm

    It was doing that in the 1990s, in Chechnya. Contributing to the problem, as usual. Look up the board members for the American Committee for Peace in Chechnya. Neocons all.

    Lawlight -> 5abi 29 August 2014 4:23pm

    Once armed of course, we can be confident they would fight only Russia? Err..!

    AlicanteAnn -> 5abi, 29 August 2014 5:30pm

    You are joking, I hope! And sanctions should be dropped asap

    FuzzySpider -> 5abi 29 August 2014 11:05pm

    We did that in Afghanistan in the 1980s. It was marvelous and never came back to haunt us at all!

    hvadaltsaa, 29 August 2014 12:12pm

    If the West enforced the type of sanctions that they use against Iran then using sanctions would make a difference. Right now it is a wrist slap that protects major business interests.

    dirkbruere -> hvadaltsaa 29 August 2014 12:15pm

    Russia can apply sanctions of its own. Plus, does the West really want to forge a major alliance between Russia and China?

    hvadaltsaa -> dirkbruere 29 August 2014 12:56pm

    The China and Russia alliance already exists. Remember all of the UN vetos at the beginning of the conflict in Syria?

    dirkbruere, 29 August 2014 12:14pm

    What Putin is up to is crystal clear. He is making sure the rebels do not lose. Also probably making sure they do not win. An end to the war will depend on Crimea staying part of Russia and sanctions being lifted. Until that happens... war.

    davidpear -> dirkbruere, 30 August 2014 10:40am

    What Putin is up to is crystal clear

    Let's not forget that it was the US that destabilized Ukraine in the first place.

    Putin didn't want anything before that. Now he doesn't want NATO on his border and with their record in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and Syria who could blame him.

    godforbidowright -> PrakashShah 29 August 2014 6:30pm

    And then this gem:

    Putin might well be persuaded to back this (and withdraw his phantom forces from Ukraine) if he is promised that Ukraine will never join Nato.

    That isn't an alternative approach, its a joke. Why should a sovereign nation cow down to such a demand when there is such a clear impetus to do the exact opposite?

    FuzzySpider -> godforbidowright 29 August 2014 11:07pm

    By the same token why couldn't the Soviet Union put nuclear weapons on Cuba when the sovereign nation of Cuba allowed it? America threatened to start a nuclear war over that - and Cuba is 90 miles off the coast of America. The Ukraine shares a vast border with Russia.

    Jeremn, 29 August 2014 12:16pm

    hatred between Ukrainians and Russians grow so deep

    Be concerned about the hatred between Ukrainains and Ukrainians first. The government in Kiev branded its fellow citizens terrorists and subhumans and sent tanks against them. Their atillery is still shelling Donetsk (Poroshenko promised he would never shell that city) and killing people. To what end?

    Hundreds of thousands have fled. The economy is destroyed.

    And, yet again, we are backing one side against another. Kiev gets support, applause, an absence of condemnation.

    It won't help them win, now that Mariupol is falling to the rebels, but it certainly exposes our governments as immoral hypocrites.

    [Aug 30, 2014] Putin likens Ukraine's forces to Nazis and threatens standoff in the Arctic by Shaun Walker in Mariupol, Leonid Ragozin in Moscow, Matthew Weaver and agencies

    Aug 29, 2014 | The Guardian
    teaandchocolate, 29 August 2014 1:04pm

    and ominously threatening to take his standoff with the west into the disputed Arctic.

    So, the oil resource wars we were warned about have officially started. Time to stock up on baked beans.

    Edward Frederick Ezell, 29 August 2014 1:09pm

    Western policy is imperialist and the big targets now are Russia and China. The actions of the US/UK, EU and NATO and are now explicitly expansionist and aggressive.

    I'm sure the great minds of our leaders (who have not yet managed to even slow down the potential existential threats facing their citizens and humanity) have a plan for avoiding the likely consequence of their announced intention of forward mobilizations threatening Russia.

    This is almost as stupid as the run up to "the war to end all wars".

    Gegenbeispiel -> Braminski, 29 August 2014 1:38pm

    Late monopoly capitalism MUST be imperialist. It is forced to do so by its internal stresses and contradictions.

    Wars historically SOLVE the inevitable depressions of capitalism (such as the 1930s Great Depression and the Greater Depression we're experiencing at present) albeit they are sometimes followed by milder depressions after the wars end.

    Read Marx and Lenin, you'll get it.

    StevenJ19, 29 August 2014 1:11pm

    Given Ukraine's collaboration with the Nazis in World War II, this is hardly surprising; it was mainly thanks to the Russians that Europe wasn't dominated by Hitler-Fascism in 1945; and it'll be entirely thanks to the Russians if Neo-Con-Fascism isn't dominating Europe in 2015.

    LastDitchAttempt, 29 August 2014 1:12pm

    Samantha Power, US ambassador to the UN, accused Russia of lying about its involvement in Ukraine. "It has manipulated. It has obfuscated. It has outright lied," she said.

    Memories of Weapons of Mass Destruction come to mind thanks to Tony and George W.

    guessklein11, 29 August 2014 1:14pm >

    ""Nato ambassadors emerged from a meeting on Friday morning to accuse Russia of a "blatant violation" of Ukraine's sovereignty. "Despite Moscow's hollow denials, it is now clear that Russian troops and equipment have illegally crossed the border into eastern and south-eastern Ukraine," its secretary general Anders Fogh Rasmussen said."""

    NATO is a champion to bring chaos and misery to third world countries. Everywhere NATO goes is followed by destruction, Anarchy, Chaos and despair. Just look at Libya and Iraq. The only Way and reason why peoples still support them is because of the geographic location where all theses illegal acts are committed by NATO in places such as Africa & the Middle east .I Don't wish it, but let Europe taste a little bit of the NATO recipe I bet demonstrations will be happening all over the continent.

    ProfWilliams, 29 August 2014 1:15pm

    That creep Obama has recently called NATO an extension of US power.

    It is disgusting the way that NATO is now backing neo-nazis.

    There is a major demonstration being organised against this war mongering nato at its forthcoming gathering in Wales.

    Have your say! ...on the day!...fuck nato!

    evenuglierthanyou -> Harpagus, 29 August 2014 1:34pm

    Which neo-nazis are these?

    Every minister in the current Ukrainian government is either a member of a neo-Nazi party or in a party which has been in a formal coalition with a neo-Nazi party for over a year.
    nickpheas, 29 August 2014 1:15pm

    Goodwin's law, he loses.

    AstheticTheory -> nickpheas, 29 August 2014 1:18pm

    Except there are neo-Nazis in the government!

    Bobmex, 29 August 2014 1:16pm

    "Small villages and large cities [are] surrounded by the Ukrainian army, which is directly hitting residential areas with the aim of destroying the infrastructure"

    Exactly what Israel did in Gaza.

    ds9074, 29 August 2014 1:16pm

    Russia has always been the first to criticise western countries for violations of sovereignty of other states and often quite rightly. Now of course when they are doing it the rules don't apply to Russia. What they are doing in Ukraine is illegal and wrong.

    Whether or not the Russian government likes the new Government in Kiev or the way it came to be formed is irrelevant. It is an internal matter for Ukraine and Russia should have respected that. Instead we saw it annex part of Ukraine's sovereign territory and now proceed with a policy of destabiling half the country.

    Bobmex -> ds9074, 29 August 2014 1:19pm

    If you can΄t beat them, join them.

    perhouse, 29 August 2014 1:16pm

    Where was the outrage when America sent "advisors into Afghanistan to arm, train and supply weapons to Al Qaeda against a Russian backed government"

    They even used Rambo to glorify that incursion. Al Qaeda turned out not to be great allies and I am sure the new Nazis government in Ukraine will be the same.

    Proudlatin, 29 August 2014 1:17pm

    I'd like to see what the supporters of the US and EU atrocious and criminal foreign policy would say if they were sitting in the shoes of the Russians. President Putin is absolutely right about the Ukrainian army bombing civilian areas and killing indiscriminately. Moreover, the entire Ukrainian east is ethnic Russian, what do they expect?

    The US (my country) has been behaving like a horribly criminal bully in every way. The fools in the EU have been following its foot steps implementing a neocolonial foreign policy (which many of us thought it was a thing of the past) toward the former Soviet Union republics. Russia's reaction is only logical!

    dvdmartin, 29 August 2014 1:17pm

    "Putin likens Ukraine's forces to Nazis and threatens standoff in the Arctic"

    -----------------

    He's not far wrong. Maybe not Nazis but they are proud to be Fascists!

    Cameron supports these Fascists and come November he will attend the memorial parade (with a tear in his eye and his photographer present) telling us of our heroes who stood up and fought the Fascists!

    How did we come to be on their side?

    ID075732, 29 August 2014 1:17pm

    It seems that the situation in Ukraine is getting worse. Putin calls on Poroshenko to negotiate a settlement with the anti-maidan forces in the east.

    When will the US realise that they have lost this and the propaganda war?

    Following the collapse of the Pro-Maidan militia in the south-east of Ukraine Poroshenko has stressed that the Ukrainian state will take drastic measures "to prevent any betrayal or desertion" during the operation in the south-east.

    More war crimes against his own people.

    ottomanboy, 29 August 2014 1:23pm

    This is a matter for the UN not Rasmussen and his fellow hawks in Nato. Clear out all troops from the eastern provinces of Ukraine and hold a UN supervised plebiscite. The pro-Nato ultra-rightists in Kiv will not like that so it is unlikely.

    Bobmex -> ottomanboy, 29 August 2014 1:24pm

    And while they are at it do the same for Israel and the Palestinians.

    candelas31 -> ottomanboy, 29 August 2014 1:49pm

    Hmm... Would you like to make a plebiscite in eastern Turkey in order to establish independent Kurdistan within the turkish borders ? Don't think so.

    Each country protects it's teritorial integrity. There was no problem with Donbas until Ukraine decided to quit Putin Euroasian Union. Putin won't let go and the dead bodies of both Russians and Ukrainians don't matter to him. The rise of Empire matters.

    peredagar, 29 August 2014 1:23pm

    Putin knows all about bombing civilians. Remember Ryazan and Grozny?

    umut gezer -> peredagar, 29 August 2014 1:28pm

    You mean the war against the jihadists armed by the Saudis and the Americans?

    Bobmex, 29 August 2014 1:23pm

    There is absolutely nothing NATO can do, except start a war with Russia. Sanctions won΄t stop Russia. They don΄t think like the west. It is a matter of pride for them.

    Philos83 -> Bobmex, 29 August 2014 1:31pm

    I see you welcome the prospect of being one or more the following: incinerated, poisoned to death by radiation, poisoned to death by chemical weapons, killed by a weaponized pathogen, or gold old fashioned starve to death from the destruction of the global food supply thanks to nuclear winter

    Idiot

    Anette Mor -> Bobmex, 29 August 2014 1:39pm

    Not just pride. Matter of value of human life above politics and matter of realistic balance between self determination, sovereignty and state responsibility to its people. Bombing own population is off russian books. Putin stopped Chechen war and russians paid for full rebuild. Russians do not want to see any dead bodies as price for sovereignty any more. Nobody can cancel national pride and cheap patriotism over night but resonsible nations have to find ways not to kill civilians over it. Crimea is the way russians want to see geopolitics. Nobody killed. Good work. Would they want it at higher price? No. If they learn to stop at right point others need to learn too. Yes humatitarian corridor for surrended ukranian troops is a PR trick. But it saves lives. Go it is canning but good trick. Vs. More dead chosen by Kiev. Old NATO way to bomb for any reason has to go. It only works if genocide is an aim. To prove it is not an aim but just unabilitu to adjust tactics, ukraine has to stop commiting war crimes by shotting own civillians. Russians can pay the price of own geopolitics and nationalistic moment over crimea. there is already a term Krymnash, meaning "crimea is ours" a self humorous critical way of observing own patriotic excitement. But they wpnt hate the blame for lives taken by stupid Kiev rage if building own identity and unity with the west based on anti-russian hysteria.

    Ishowerdaily, 29 August 2014 1:24pm

    What's more worthy of a headline in a civil war - dead civilians or geopolitics?

    With warmongers driving us to nuclear oblivion and a mass media happy to go along for the ride there has never been greater need for a mass anti war movement.

    angdavies, 29 August 2014 1:25pm

    100 years on and the elites are trying hard to take us to the brink once again. Maybe it's all some sort of grandiose commemoration they've cooked up to show us how easy it is for "circumstances" such as the murder of Franz Ferdinand to get out of hand.

    Philos83, 29 August 2014 1:26pm

    This is all reminiscent of Orwell's 1984. The rulers in the West and Russia don't actually want a war because that'd be suicidally insane and nobody got rich by killing themselves (although our plutocrats could yet lose control of the situation and we'll all be annihilated in a nuclear catastrophe). However, constant emergency and crisis, and the appearance of the near outbreak of war, is an effective means of control when there is no longer any ideological or popular legitimacy for those in power.

    We're all suckers for buying into this. Our real enemies are in sitting in shiny skyscrapers and wood paneled offices in Westminster, Washington DC and Brussels. These psychos (Putin is one, Obama is one, Cameron is one, Hollande is one, Netanyahu is one, Merkel is probably one, everyone working for more than 2-years in finance are) will send us all to our deaths if they believed it would serve their narrow and psychotic material interests.

    Sam Hayes, 29 August 2014 1:26pm

    Thats because they are. Shame on the US/EU for creating this. Although,totally predictable.

    Once again, look up what Hitlers Germany did to Putins family

    AstheticTheory, 29 August 2014 1:28pm

    Good old Yats does think that East Ukrainians are sub human, after all.

    umut gezer -> AstheticTheory, 29 August 2014 1:35pm

    and drunken gorillas, thieves, animals. And another says that 2 to 3 million of them should be erased by all means. Of course how dare we say they are Nazis.

    s0lar1, 29 August 2014 1:32pm

    Ukraine are acting like Nazis? How many countries have they invaded? Russia are the aggressors here.

    And the irony of Putin spouting nationalist propaganda at a 'youth camp'. The term 'Hitler Youth' comes to mind.

    Steveinsofia -> s0lar1, 29 August 2014 1:44pm

    Shelling your own civilians is hardly the action of a liberal democracy.

    Slo27, 29 August 2014 1:32pm

    Putin likens Ukraine's forces to Nazis and threatens standoff in the Arctic

    Putin's Russia is fascist, here is the Wikipedia description. Fits like a glove:

    Fascist movements shared certain common features, including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation, and it asserts that stronger nations have the right to expand their territory by displacing weaker nations.

    Everything that Putin is saying about Kiev actually applies to his Russia. I have seen that this often holds for dictators, they describe what they are thinking and accuse their opponents of it.

    hilltop, 29 August 2014 1:34pm

    I can see no British advantage to be gained or protected in this situation so oppose any commitment of British Forces and British money. Let those loud neighbours of Ukraine, Poland and Germany, pick up the tab.

    DallsBeep, 29 August 2014 1:34pm

    "Cold War's over then, guys?"
    "Yep, we won."
    "Fine. But could you not move right up to our border? Cheers."
    "Yeah, no probs."
    "Wait, what are you doing?"
    "Just a little bit?"
    "Okay, but no more."
    "Sure."
    "WTF dude, you're STILL moving."
    "lol"
    "And STILL moving! STOP."
    "lol"
    "We can't just sit here and take this."
    "This is all your fault."

    Manche, 29 August 2014 1:35pm

    "flagging separatist insurrection,"? Really, if you're doing propaganda pieces like this - keep up to speed. The Ukies are getting whipped all over the place at the moment....

    ID5252799, 29 August 2014 1:35pm

    So now we know. He is just a megalomaniac. He doesn't care about international relations one bit.

    Openly escalating the situation by drawing in the Arctic issues.

    But at least now he's shown his true face.

    Manche -> ID5252799, 29 August 2014 1:40pm

    Try to read the history of the last eighteen months of this crisis. Putin is no saint - doesn't have to be and no politician is - but it is the west that has been escalating the situation.

    Essentially, for NATO and the western elites - Russia cannot be allowed to exist and must be dealt with. This Ukrainian adventure is part of the process. Putin is standing up to the Washington order...and is demonized obviously. Bear that in mind if you can.

    MarcusClarke, 29 August 2014 1:35pm

    Putin is defending against USA aggression, as in USA Victoria ( F the EU) Noland put (Yats [Arseniy Yatseniuk) in power in the Ukraine.

    John Sinclair -> MarcusClarke, 29 August 2014 1:46pm

    And Putin will succeed and the Ukrainian fools who went along with the the Western undermining of their democracy will soon enough be looking for someone to blame and the EU is always a pushover for taking a boot up the backside. Its had plenty of practice from uncle sam's jackboot jammed up its ass these last 70 years since WW2.

    StatusFoe, 29 August 2014 1:35pm

    Ukraine is obviously engaged ethnic cleansing: schools hospitals, residential buildings are being targetted indescriminately, only western msm hardly show any footage because it spoils the pro-Kiev script.

    Mullah13, 29 August 2014 1:38pm

    And all of this exactly 100 years after outbreak of WWI. Good thing mankind has evolved.

    1981937, 29 August 2014 1:39pm

    Even if there has been a minor "invasion" of Russian troops, how dare the west, particularly the USA, hypocriticaly accuse them of invasion and that there will be consequences. ALL the invasions carried out by the Americans have brought the most terrible consequences to the populations of the countries invaded.
    When quoting Samantha Power accusing Russia of lying, manipulating and obfuscating, the article should at least remind us of the fact that these accusations are very true of america, but of course it is some sort of taboo for this to be admitted.

    ChristopherMyers, 29 August 2014 1:39pm

    Sorry Obama, but I think I shall have to agree with Putin, Kiev's Nazis are the problem here, once a Nazi, always a Nazi. They have mercilessly bombed their own people in East Ukraine with the backing of the US/EU and NATO, for this the West should be ashamed. I am hoping Putin can put an end to this conflict that is claiming too many innocent lives in East Ukraine, screw the West and their sanctions, lives are worth more than the money the West seems to worship above all else.

    StatusFoe -> ChristopherMyers, 29 August 2014 1:45pm

    I'm surprised Putin has been so restrained so far. Indeed a lightening occupation Crimea style would probably be the swiftest solution and save lives. It appears that Donetsk and Lugansk remaining within the Ukraine is totally unrealistic.

    DomesticExtremist, 29 August 2014 1:40pm

    So Poroschenko goes to Minsk and agrees to talk peace and the next day he screeching about yet another invasion. It reminds me of the toddler Sakashvilli who insisted on starting a fight and then bawled like a baby when the other guy hit back.

    I don't think there are many in the West who are prepared for themselves or their kids to die in a ditch on behalf of a thieving oligarch with the emotional maturity of a four year old.

    If he wants to turn his country into Lord of the Flies Land, then let him live with the consequences.

    John Sinclair, 29 August 2014 1:41pm

    Barack Obama: 'Russia has deliberately and repeatedly violated the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine'.

    Clearly this Obama clown robot thing with the dumbo ears has a great sense of humour and no sense of irony or justice whatsoever. It has a great big hypocrisy circuit though. I would laugh if it didn't hurt so much.

    richguardian1, 29 August 2014 1:41pm

    Russia has the right to defend ethnic Russians in Ukraine as much as the British government does to aid it the defence of the Falkland islanders or the Gibraltarians or to be more expansionist in the defence of Putin to invade and meddle in countries like Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan. What comes through in weak arguments put forward here is a complete intolerance to any country that is contrary to the narrow geo politcal view of a few in the west. Cherry picking a baddy can never be a substitute for coherent strategy or argument. So now we have our baddy, lets conveniently forget and forgive all Ukrainian actions and brutality.

    laserprinter, 29 August 2014 1:43pm

    Small villages and large cities [are] surrounded by the Ukrainian army, which is directly hitting residential areas with the aim of destroying the infrastructure … It sadly reminds me the events of the second world war, when German fascist … occupants surrounded our cities."

    Indeed it does. It also reminds me of Israeli attacks on civilians.

    Black Cat, 29 August 2014 1:44pm

    This article and the general editorial tone of the Guardian are beyond irresponsible. There is currently no evidence that Russia has invaded Ukraine, and even the claim itself appears to have been a translation error on President Poroshenko's website, yet no acknowledgement is made of this.

    As for the claim that Putin "threatens standoff in the Arctic"! What can one say? Two days ago the Canadian foreign minister appeared to threaten a war with Russia over the Arctic, though he later tried to soften his quoted words. Putin's response is to say "of course we should pay more attention to issues of development of the Arctic and the strengthening of our position," and he is threatening a standoff?

    This is deplorable. And I can only see one purpose to such reporting. The MSM is being directed to prepare the population for war with Russia.

    Appalling. Insane. But what else can we think at this point?

    hodgeey, 29 August 2014 1:44pm

    Now that USA/EU/NATO are thoroughly discredited, it only remains to partition off East and South Ukraine to those who do not want to be subjected to the Nazi regime we have installed in Kiev.

    When the partition is completed, the Iron Curtain will fall again and Obama's mission will be accomplished. The USA did not like the way the EU and Russia were doing well together, which was what it was all about.

    Chriswr, 29 August 2014 1:46pm

    Maybe we should just cut the crap and sort this out now?

    Obama and Putin should get together and split Ukraine between them. The east with its large Russian population becomes part of Russia and the rest (including Kiev) gets fast-tracked to NATO and EU membership.

    Everyone gets what they want.

    JCDavis -> Chriswr, 29 August 2014 1:57pm

    The US doesn't care about Ukraine. All our government wanted was another section for the new iron curtain it was building, and to deny Russia its warm water port in Crimea. If Putin takes the east and the south, then the US is left with a landlocked basketcase.

    JAKERSWC, 29 August 2014 1:46pm

    Dear Samantha Power, when you say the 'mask is coming off' could you first unveil what happened to MH17? The findings here will pretty much allow us, the people, to decide the ethical and moral scruples of the respective warring factions.

    What I find strange is that Putin as well as Zakharchenko had already admitted the existence of Russian regular troops, albeit in a volunteer capacity, as operating in the Dombas region. As has also been stated by Zakharchenko, even officers from the French military have traveled to fight against Kiev and that this is not an isolated case.

    A peaceful solution is within reach and Zakharchenko is very likely to accept an offer for a referendum on independence and perhaps some type of sharing of the natural resources in that region. The offer of negotiation is genuinely there.

    As for the movement of equipment, whilst I don't doubt that Zakharchenko's forces have received help from Russia, quite a bit of the hardware is captured Ukrainian armour which included a number of artillery units too. The satellite images that have been released are not of a high enough resolution to allow us to see if the hardware shown is the captured Ukrainian units or Russian proper.

    Looking at the topography of the region and the current troop deployments and battlefronts, it is well with in strategic reason to withdraw said captured units to Russian territory and to have them travel south in Russia in relatively safety, and then re-enter the Ukraine to open up a new front off the coast of the Azov. Of course it could be the case that the units are of Russian origin proper and there simply is not enough information to know either way, to make the kind of statements that NATO and the USA are making.

    On Putin's claim about neo-Nazis, well, even the Guardian had previously reported on the role and influence of neo-Nazi groups in Kiev before this armed conflict started. Such articles reporting on the influence neo-Nazi groups was run by other media outlets too and their relationship to the current administration in Kiev made known. It is very hard for NATO, the US, the UK and Germany to suddenly back track and ask the same media outlets to report counter to their previous articles.

    Despite all the d-notices that have been issued in the case of the UK, the truth of the matter is one of public record generated by the very 'western' media outlets that are currently pumping out, and in some cases under duress I might add, all this blatant propaganda.

    JAKERSWC -> Anette Mor, 29 August 2014 2:17pm

    A peaceful solution is within reach and if Kiev and NATO (US, UK, Germany and others) do not make moves to take it, it will clearly indicate who the aggressors really are.

    This is not Syria or Iraq that we are dealing with and the major powers of this world need to be told that the propaganda techniques of old do not work anymore, as we are too globally interconnected in our social interaction and communications.

    I will give one personal example of what I mean by such global interconnectedness. I was gaming with some friends online and such friends included a number of Russians. I came across an article in the 'western' media reporting on something that happened in a Russian town.

    So I said "Dimitri could you just take a walk into town and tell me if this is happening?"

    "Sure JAKERSWC, no problem, I have to go pick something up anyways", Dimitri did reply. And upon his return he did say "no its bullshit, nothing is going on right now".

    Whose word would I trust? A friend that I have known online for years, someone I have shared both tears of sadness and laughter with? Or would I trust an impersonal media outlet that has been shown to propagate false hoods over things like WMDs in Iraq or countless other examples?

    CrumpsallLass, 29 August 2014 1:46pm

    In the last ten years, the extremists in western Ukraine, along with their NATO/EU backers have twice overthrown democratically elected Presidents because they were not wanted by a minority of 2nd SS Panzer division insignia wearing fascists in the west.

    Also, NATO have been involved in a string of illegal wars and incursions including Iraq, Yugoslavia, Libya, Sudan, central & south America, North Korea (in waters claimed by the south but not recognised by UN), in kidnappings and unlawful imprisonment and in continuing to supply arms and "advisors"to dodgy regimes and breaking international law all over the place when it suits them.

    We are still waiting for all the evidence (not photoshopped) from neutral journalists including the airline allegedly shot down by missile or other.

    Personally, I think that Russia should invade Ukraine and station its missiles next to the borders as a buffer between the dangerous NATO and the rest of the world Eastwards. And run a serious investigation into what happened in Kiev with the Right Sektor snipers and NATO Agent Provocateurs.

    JAKERSWC -> CrumpsallLass, 29 August 2014 1:52pm

    If elections are to go ahead in the Ukraine soon, then perhaps this conflict can come to a peaceful close. I would add that international observers are going to have to be used for these elections and this international body is going to have to include observers from Dombas and Russia too, if any sense of impartiality is to be generated.

    There is a peaceful way forwards and it is not going to look good for NATO and its respective members and Kiev, if they choose not to pursue peaceful solutions. They have well and truly lost the propaganda war and this proverbial blitzkrieg of disingenuous media articles is evidence of this; tyranny always demands the removal of nuance.

    CrumpsallLass -> JAKERSWC, 29 August 2014 1:58pm

    They can't have a democratic election whilst their is civil war going on. Some will boycott elections, others wont be able to get to a polling station. And as we have seen this year, NATO/EU recognise some votes (the new regime) but not others (those who voted to return to Russia in Crimea).

    And Right Sektor will be there forcing people to vote a certain way and denying access to observers, although in certain states of the United States, they threaten international observers with arrest so you can guess what goes on there.

    redfinn, 29 August 2014 1:47pm

    It's very hard to sort fact from fiction in the information war: This article points a finger at the IMF

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-01/imf-warns-ukraine-fight-east-or-no-money

    AlexRussia, 29 August 2014 1:47pm

    UN declares the use of torture by Donbas punitive battalions of oligarch Kolomoiskiy (sponsor of Ukrainian fascists - Governor Dnepropetrovk region)

    PavelDragunov, 29 August 2014 1:48pm

    The US and the EU still believe that they are masters of this world and it is up to them to decide how should live all these highly dispensable people in other countries all over the globe.

    To some degree it really was the case when France and Britain and Germany used to be empires, and later on when the US got almost all the wealth of the world after supplying both Germany and Soviet Union in WWII and being completely untouched by all sorrows and losses that Europe and USSR came through.

    In my opinion, the US and the EU
    - Should shut up (for their lies and cheep propaganda are of no interest for anybody in this world),
    - Mind their own business (stop interfering into inner affairs of other countries),
    - Keep a low profile (if they want to survive WWIII with Muslim countries).

    And then Russia will continue selling its gas to Europe (if Europe misbehaves, then this very gas will go to China) and wouldn't hurry with dropping the US dollar too much and too soon...

    LikeitHot, 29 August 2014 1:48pm

    According to Obama Russia is causing violence. I though it was the bombing by Kiev is what is creating violence and killing its own citizens.

    JAKERSWC -> Hermann22, 29 August 2014 1:57pm

    You should go read the articles printed by the 'western' media before this armed conflict started. It is quite clear upon which side the neo-nazis sit and that is by the 'western' media's own admission! It is this complete 180 as to why NATO, the US, the UK and other EU states have lost the propaganda war amongst the intelligentsia of the 'west'. Well, that and the case of MH17.

    I will concede this, the uncritical segments of our populations, the less well educated, can always be misled as their collective memory is short term to the extreme.

    Abraka Dabra -> MindCrazedBanjo, 29 August 2014 2:15pm

    Because the US is one of "the good guys", and as Max Uthoff said in his satire show "Die Anstalt": "When bad guys do something bad, it's bad. When good guys do something bad, it's good!"

    Willful ignorance. No one ever wants to realize the side they're on is full of liars and murderers (as well).

    Abraka Dabra, 29 August 2014 1:52pm

    Are all British mainstream media this behind the times? Even the German mainstream media, who are completely and utterly anti-Russian right now, have had to admit that "oops! Kiev is letting Neonazis fight its fight!" (not that they did this all that loudly or that it stops them from supporting Kiev or anything) by now. British mainstream media are still in denial? Crazy.

    Also, considering what sort of people have high ranking positions in the Ukrainian government right now, it's no wonder they're unleashing Neonazis on their people. Considering that some of them have openly advocated that the Ukraine should "cleanse itself of all jews, Germans, and Russians" by killing them. Some said they wouldn't even talk to jewish or Russian "trash". Why are we supporting a government that classifies some people as "second class humans" due to their origin, again? 2014, cheering on and funding Nazis has become "in". Awesome.

    Abraka Dabra -> Abraka Dabra, 29 August 2014 1:57pm

    In any case, I do not want the US, the supreme rapist of foreign sovereignty, to accuse anyone of "violating a country's sovereignty". The utter hypocrisy is nauseating! Do they think we're blind, deaf, and totally stupid?

    By the way, they just did it again: Upon the Syrian government saying that it would see the US' swooping down on their country and killing its citizens as an act of aggression (in other words: an act of war), the US basically said: "We don't care." Google Psaki's statement.

    John Haluska, 29 August 2014 1:52pm

    I don't support Russian actions in Ukraine, but compare Russian statements regarding protecting Russians and Russian interests anywhere and everywhere without regard to national boundaries to U. S. statements of the same ilk regarding their right to bomb and use US forces in the Middle East and else where. They are taking essentially the same position.

    Drifterrus, 29 August 2014 1:53pm

    I'm amazed at the levels of lucidity, intelligence and astuteness shown by the majority of the contributors here.
    Most of you do not know what you are talking about, wallowing in your sad hatred of Putin and Russia. Give it a few months and you will be thankful the scourge was stopped before it undermined Europe.

    yanburgh, 29 August 2014 1:55pm

    What Putin is doing is inspired the the Neo-fascist Eurasianist ideology of Aleksander Dugin.
    http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.com/2014/02/russian-fascist-aleksandr-dugin-is.html
    http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/expansionist+behind+Putin/9801689/story.html

    yanburgh -> yanburgh, 29 August 2014 2:00pm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin

    'Aleksandr Gelyevich Dugin (Russian: Алекса́ндр Ге́льевич Ду́гин, born 7 January 1962) is a Russian political scientist and an ideologist of the creation of a Eurasian empire that would be against the "North Atlantic interests". He is known for his fascist views,[1][2][3][4] and had close ties to the Kremlin and Russian military.[5] Dugin serves as an adviser to State Duma speaker (and key member of the ruling United Russia party) Sergei Naryshkin.[6]'

    LetsBeClear, 29 August 2014 1:55pm

    We don't need war. We need a concerted effort to firmly, legally, signal to Putin that we won't tolerate him violating the territorial integrity of other countries.

    FlangeTube -> LetsBeClear, 29 August 2014 2:01pm

    But why not?

    I don't understand. Are you maintaining that NATO/EU/USA et al have moral high ground in this situation? Because that is deluded.

    This is simply a pissing contest, the West wants the world to do as it says. That is all.

    retsdon, 29 August 2014 1:56pm

    "It is necessary to force the Ukrainian authorities to substantively begin these talks – not on technical issues … the talks must be substantive,"

    Putin is just reiterating the point he's been making all along. The solution to the Ukrainian conflict must be a negotiated settlement between Kiev and the separatists. He's making it plain that Kiev shelling the east into submission and subjection is not an option - and he'll do whatever is necessary to prevent that happening.

    Now that Obama has ruled out any hope of NATO getting involved (thank God), perhaps Poroshenko will realize that the military option is a dead end and go back to what he was saying before George Brennan flew in and whispered in his ear.

    Jaw, jaw is better than war, war, as old Churchill said.

    OperationAnfield, 29 August 2014 1:57pm

    Russia are just old school. The Americans wage war with imaginary money via the IMF these days while the Russians are still wearing 80s tracksuits and putting soldiers on the ground.

    Anette Mor -> OperationAnfield, 29 August 2014 2:03pm

    No. Americans got no military alternative to indiscriminate bombing while russians change tactics depending on the target. People in the west has to stop pretending others are 20 years behind and start learning how to build a better future. Loosing moral imperative and accepting cognitive decline does not have to be the humanity future.

    Slaker111 -> Anette Mor, 29 August 2014 2:19pm

    In biology, the West is like a cancerous cell which is unable to self-regulate through its own natural immunity system. The result is uncontrolled growth and the death of the organism.

    There will be other systems and countries which will adapt and survive. Social Darwinism will fell the West as surely as Rome collapsed.

    Rattel, 29 August 2014 1:58pm

    Now when Russia went into Grozny it was apparent that they only fought on brownfield sites, at least that was what they left.

    Sergei Konyushenko -> Rattel, 29 August 2014 2:10pm

    that's what they left, you liar.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=grozny+city&safe=active&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=iHsAVO2HFqOaygO_8oLYCg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1680&bih=882

    Freddy1957, 29 August 2014 1:59pm

    Russia is the last bastion of a Christain European culture that I once knew, and for this alone deserves saving from the corrupt influences of the EU and the US.

    aucontraire2, 29 August 2014 2:00pm

    Kiev got what was coming to them. When you play with fire you get burnt, nothing new here. And we don't see any of the big mouths accusing Putin on this forum leaving to join the Kiev forces.
    Just like the israelis the Kiev forces have bombarded the two separatists strongholds with more than 2000 deaths of innocent women and children.
    Who is the guilty party here ? Is it really Russia or is it Kiev ?
    I am far from being convinced that Russia is guilty of invading Ukraine. Protecting its interests against some EU and US plans to destabilize the region, is closer to reality.

    Hallucinogen, 29 August 2014 2:03pm

    Russians who call Ukrainian forces "Nazis" have the same level of authenticity (and mentality) as American Tea Partiers who call Obama a Nazi.

    Slaker111 -> Hallucinogen, 29 August 2014 2:11pm

    False analogy -- another Obama defender derailed by the locomotive of logic.

    Ishowerdaily -> Hallucinogen, 29 August 2014 2:15pm

    Not necessarily true. What about the Azov Battallion (the source of current claims of Prussian incursions because the got beat), what about the UNA-UNSO and their involvement in the Maidan, what about the horizontal red and black flag the dominated the Maidan, What about Svoboda participation in the kiev regime and national security apparatus? The list of signifiers could go on, and that's not even including massacres that have occurred at the hands of the Ukrainian 'national guard'.

    Putin undoubtedly does have imperialist intent - but imperialism does not necessarily equal fascism. The reliance of capitalists on far right thugs to further their interests, and targeting of civilian populations with artillery does.

    Regardless, there is a Juggernaut in motion leading us to nuclear war - are you absolutely certain that disputed events in Ukraine justify it?

    BTW, I'm not a tea party nut or anything like it but a life long socialist and anti fascist.

    AmbassadorIII, 29 August 2014 2:03pm

    The Kiev junta is significantly worse than Hitler. He didn't use white phosphorus and cluster bombs, tanks, fighter jets plus medium range ballistic missiles against civilian targets - against his own people. Children, the infirm, women and the elderly make up most of some 2,000 victims. Such genocide won't soon be forgotten soon, regardless of whether a trial is held for crimes against humanity or not. The CIA sitting in downtown Kiev and calling the shots is no less responsible. If Obama thinks, "Ukrainian forces are making progress against the separatists," he is misinformed because the Right Sector and Ukrainian army are being routed in a counteroffensive. If the lessons of Vietnam teach anything, it is that the side defending home and liberty from occupiers wins.

    everlastingspring, 29 August 2014 2:03pm

    Russia views itself as defending its people from slaughter at the hands of a largely mercenary Ukrainian army. Its not that hard to understand.

    Ukraine is a piece of the puzzle that American backed Europe and Russia want, both economicly and strategicly.

    The currency wars have been going for a while now which only brings more tension throughout the world. Look for China to get involved at some stage, if they want they can single handedly sink the US dollar.

    Its a dangerous game the US plays with all our lives. The next GFC is coming, a great war is needed to reset the clock.

    Anette Mor -> everlastingspring, 29 August 2014 2:07pm

    Yes. Stop killing kids and learn to talk. There are other ways to win geopolitcs. Without blood. The way crimea was taken or the way Putin prompts large chank of ukranian forces to surrender right now by offering humanitarian corridor. He corrupts ukranians by live just as tried to corrupt them by money at the end of Yanukovich time. Dirty? May be. But far better than killing.

    FlangeTube, 29 August 2014 2:03pm

    Comparing the shelling of Dontesk and Lugansk to the shelling of Leningrad seems apt to me. Would someone care to point out how THIS shelling of civilians is OK?

    AlexPeace, 29 August 2014 2:04pm

    First of all, Donbas and Luhansk were transferred to Ukraine in about 1956, at the same time as the Crimea. So authors reference to Tsarism is plain wrong. Secondly military actions were started by Kiev, not by pro- Russian militants. And since it escalated into a full- scale war. Tactics of Kiev forces definitely remind of WW2 encirclement of Leningrad, city blockade, destruction of vital objects, sources of water, etc. Also important is that Ukraine itself is divided ( Western areas, central part, controlled by Kiev, east- south controlled by Kolomoiskii, and Novorossia (pro-Russian). Pro- nazi national guards etc are actually funded and controlled by Kolomoiskii. Obviously, there are several parties involved and the picture there is a bit more complicated and Putin does not decide everything. It looks like that after what was done to Donbas and Luhansk by Ukrainian army, eastern territories will never reconcile with Ukraine, whatever the military outcome is.

    twiglette, 29 August 2014 2:04pm

    Putin is correct. NATO has backed this savage fascist onslaught on the Russian speakers of Eastern Ukraine, whom the black shirts think of as subhuman Russian animals. 500,000 (not a misprint!!!) have been driven from their homes in a massive exercise in ethnic cleansing (thousands murdered). Yet we let, nay, encourage this to go on (and censor it from our media) so we can then accuse Russia of intervention, and justify strangling the Russian economy. Russia could take the whole Ukraine tomorrow morning - If they invaded you'd know about it! Maybe they will if we carry on our lunatic plan.

    MattDrayton, 29 August 2014 2:04pm

    Samantha Power, US ambassador to the UN, accused Russia of lying about its involvement in Ukraine. "It has manipulated. It has obfuscated. It has outright lied," she said

    .The humanitarian bomber Samantha Power certainly knows how to manipulate, obfuscate, and outright lie as our experience of her past behaviors have demonstrated.

    "When the world is at war it is difficult to oppose war."

    yugoslavia, 29 August 2014 2:05pm

    Russia's Vladimir Putin has come out swinging this morning:

    Putin notes his approval rating is high because "he is confident he's right."

    Some more fun soundbites:

    And perhaps of most note... just as Obama pronounced yesterday that US would not engage militarily:

    uracan, 29 August 2014 2:07pm

    Kiev has used, phosphorous bombs, cluster munitions, ballistic missiles, Grads, bombs, heavy artillery, mortar batteries against civilian city centres. A thousand civilians have died in August alone.

    kiev also uses volunteer battalions comprised of Nazis as its punitive forces to terrorise civilians that are seen as pro Russian like Azov .

    Putin is right. The Ukie army is behvaing like Nazis.

    Bakerpembury, 29 August 2014 2:08pm

    If Ukraine is allowed a fast track entry into the EU then the UK must get out. We can't take another half a million East European migrants. Cameron is already a lame duck and if he supports Ukrainian entry then he's a dead duck along with the Conservative party.

    Shaneo, 29 August 2014 2:08pm

    To all banderabots and US state department trolls:

    People, we accidentally released some satellite imagery that proves we have the capability to back our hilarious claim that the seperatists shot down mh17.

    People will realise this mistake, so please continue to call anyone with a sense of reality a 'putin bot' and continue to blame the US sponsored Ukrainian coup on Putin.

    Your
    Victoria Nuland

    Ps. F..k the humans.

    shepdavis, 29 August 2014 2:08pm

    I am surprised the Russian delegate yesterday didn't upbraid the US delegate very simply...

    "You speak of invasion? Do you not remember Iraq in 2003? NOW THAT WAS A REAL INVASION " and stop talking there.

    & is West MSM so lame as to believe we are so lame as not to see that if 1000
    Russian troops kick ass so bad Kiev is done when they send in an armoured brigade?

    The truth is a cease fire that is permanent is best, though it means a "federal gov" will result (and the Kiev clowns will be gone).

    SomersetApples, 29 August 2014 2:10pm

    The petro dollar is under serious threat and Obama is getting desperate. When it collapses it will be sudden and will not have much affect on Russia.

    Russia has very little debt and is completely self sufficient in natural resources. If it does chose to import it can trade with other BRIC countries.

    The scary part is that seeing the collapse of their world hegemony the bankrupt US and EU might do something stupid like invade Russia. Their actions seem to indicate that they might see the possibility of being able to steal Russia's enviable wealth. The flood of new comments on this site indicates they are already trying to morally justify their actions.

    Russia has already declined further cooperation on nuclear disarmament.

    Erika2, 29 August 2014 2:11pm

    If Obama is going to criticise sovereignty issues then he is definately a pot calling a kettle black, considering his command of drone attacks :

    In March 2013, Ben Emmerson, the United Nations Special Rapporteur led a U.N. team that looked into civilian casualties from the U.S. drone attacks, and stated that the attacks are a violation of the sovereignty of Pakistan. Emmerson said government officials from the country clearly stated Pakistan does not agree to the drone attacks, which is contradicted by U.S. officials.[40] In October 2013, Amnesty International brought out a detailed study of the impact of drone strikes that strongly condemned the strikes. The report stated that the number of arbitrary civilian deaths, the tactics used (such as follow-up attacks targeting individuals helping the wounded) and the violation of Pakistani sovereignty meant that the strikes could be considered war crimes.[

    kenlinuk, 29 August 2014 2:11pm

    Ukraine was a million times better off before the elected president was ousted by a mob in Kiev. This is typical of Western intervention. Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine. All stable countries thrown into civil war by western guidance. What a shameful record.

    steveblack, 29 August 2014 2:12pm

    well the truth of the matter is that both sides poroshenko and putin are lying….and depending on which side you are on …the other is the liar

    ….the sad truth is that the world is in mortal danger of an economic war …..and the huge unsustainable debts of the eu and america despite their respective economic size compared to russia make them a sitting duck for a paranoid person with the means…..to bring them down…..destroy the petro dollar and america collapses ….destroy the economies of bulgaria italy and greece and the eu bites the dust….now just what has putin being doing…exactly that….italy greece and bulgaria prepare for increased energy prices payable in gold yuan and rubles upfront….hey any good businessman would do this…these are very risky clients...

    JM1492, 29 August 2014 2:12pm

    Its been funny observing the how the russophobia in the west has evolved over the past year, from fear of a nation to the fear of a man, something like a grown up's bogeyman, a monster under the bed who seems to be capable of something akin to black magic, as massive events are attributed to their actions. Much of it thanks to western medieval propaganda tactics, painting the picture, this piece being another fine example; take something a man said at a camp out of context and pass it of as a official national statement. Though i'm sure Putin doesn't mind, the press are doing him a huge favour.

    MarcelFromage -> JM1492, 29 August 2014 2:19pm

    Much of it thanks to western medieval propaganda tactics,

    Did they have propaganda in the middle ages? I thought they just invaded whoever they felt like invading and didn't give a damn what anybody else thought. You were expected to do invasions then or nobody took you seriously.

    ositonegro -> JM1492, 29 August 2014 2:31pm

    That's right, and in Serbia NATO did not bomb Belgrade, they bombed 'Milosovic.' They always need a bogeyman to take attention away from their real aims. But Putin ain't playin bogey!

    retsdon -> JM1492, 29 August 2014 2:41pm

    Its been funny observing the how the russophobia in the west has evolved over the past year, from fear of a nation to the fear of a man,

    It's SOP - personify a countries' government and national interest into a single hate figure. It's easier for the kind of people who move their lips when they read to assimilate the propaganda that way.

    I'm surprised we haven't had an article on Putin's taste in home-furnishings yet.

    Fence2, 29 August 2014 2:15pm

    Putin has shown great restraint over the obvious entrapment process led by the US at present, and so eloquently expressed in the open letter from Professor Cees Hamelink which is widely supported by academics in Holland and further afield.

    Black Cat, 29 August 2014 2:16pm

    The virtually collapse of the Ukr army over the last few days presented the west with a choice. Either accept that a military victory is impossible, and get behind negotiations between Kiev and the rebels, or make this a NATO war.

    I think the hysteria and rhetoric of the last few days show us what choice they have made. The poorly-supported claims of Russian invasion, the new drive to demonise Putin as a warmonger are a prelude, I fear, to an announcement of some kind of direct NATO involvement. Maybe just lethal aid. Maybe even some kind of fast track of Ukraine into NATO or into becoming a NATO "partner" of some description.

    This is very bad news for Europe and probably for humanity. Instead of the path of backing peace the west has chosen the path of war. And it's completely unnecessary, whatever the warmongers say.

    Even if there are 1,000 Russian troops in Ukraine (and there is still little evidence of that) Putin is no more invading than is NATO, with its several hundred "advisers" in Kiev. It is simply defending its interest on its borders. As the US would if this were happening in Mexico. As the US is in Syria - very far from its own border. The only reason for the west to cry "invasion" here is if it is looking for a reason to promote war.

    The truth is, if the west wanted, it could support a series of meetings and genuine compromise that would being peace to the region inside days or weeks. In MInsk that option was right there for the taking and there even seemed some reason to hope. It was thrown away the very next day. And for nothing but to gratify the ludicrous pride and ambitions of a very narrow sect of war-profiteers and ideologues in Washington.

    Don't be taken in. Remember Iraq. Protest this drive to insanity and destruction.

    Black Cat, 29 August 2014 2:16pm

    The virtually collapse of the Ukr army over the last few days presented the west with a choice. Either accept that a military victory is impossible, and get behind negotiations between Kiev and the rebels, or make this a NATO war.

    I think the hysteria and rhetoric of the last few days show us what choice they have made. The poorly-supported claims of Russian invasion, the new drive to demonise Putin as a warmonger are a prelude, I fear, to an announcement of some kind of direct NATO involvement. Maybe just lethal aid. Maybe even some kind of fast track of Ukraine into NATO or into becoming a NATO "partner" of some description.

    This is very bad news for Europe and probably for humanity. Instead of the path of backing peace the west has chosen the path of war. And it's completely unnecessary, whatever the warmongers say.

    Even if there are 1,000 Russian troops in Ukraine (and there is still little evidence of that) Putin is no more invading than is NATO, with its several hundred "advisers" in Kiev. It is simply defending its interest on its borders. As the US would if this were happening in Mexico. As the US is in Syria - very far from its own border. The only reason for the west to cry "invasion" here is if it is looking for a reason to promote war.

    The truth is, if the west wanted, it could support a series of meetings and genuine compromise that would being peace to the region inside days or weeks. In MInsk that option was right there for the taking and there even seemed some reason to hope. It was thrown away the very next day. And for nothing but to gratify the ludicrous pride and ambitions of a very narrow sect of war-profiteers and ideologues in Washington.

    Don't be taken in. Remember Iraq. Protest this drive to insanity and destruction.

    Kaiama, 29 August 2014 2:20pm

    I don't think that the Guardian has interpreted Putin's comments accurately.
    At present, western and asian oil companies have considerable involvement in the arctic... but that could all change. If Cameron goes too far, the best british oil company BP will be total history (and that's your pension funds by the way). Notice how the US has managed to knobble BP by crucifying it over the Deepwater Horizon and now it's Russian investments (to say nothing of the huge fines the US has levied on foreign banks in the US). That's right, supporting the US will end up destroying one of our best companies and your pensions.

    Kaiama, 29 August 2014 2:20pm

    I don't think that the Guardian has interpreted Putin's comments accurately.
    At present, western and asian oil companies have considerable involvement in the arctic... but that could all change. If Cameron goes too far, the best british oil company BP will be total history (and that's your pension funds by the way). Notice how the US has managed to knobble BP by crucifying it over the Deepwater Horizon and now it's Russian investments (to say nothing of the huge fines the US has levied on foreign banks in the US). That's right, supporting the US will end up destroying one of our best companies and your pensions.

    FlangeTube, 29 August 2014 2:21pm

    An open letter from various Dutch professors and intellectuals. It was received a lot of attention in Europe, but somehow never made it across the channel. Weird.

    Dear Mr. President Putin,

    Please accept our apologies on behalf of a great many people here in the Netherlands for our Government and our Media. The facts concerning MH17 are twisted to defame you and your country.

    We are powerless onlookers, as we witness how the Western Nations, led by the United States, accuse Russia of crimes they commit themselves more than anybody else. We reject the double standards that are used for Russia and the West. In our societies, sufficient evidence is required for a conviction. The way you and your Nation are convicted for 'crimes' without evidence, is ruthless and despicable.

    You have saved us from a conflict in Syria that could have escalated into a World War. The mass killing of innocent Syrian civilians through gassing by 'Al-­‐Qaeda' terrorists, trained and armed by the US and paid for by Saudi Arabia, was blamed on Assad. In doing so, the West hoped public opinion would turn against Assad, paving the way for an attack on Syria.

    Not long after this, Western forces have built up, trained and armed an 'opposition' in the Ukraine, to prepare a coup against the legitimate Government in Kiev. The putschists taking over were quickly recognized by Western Governments. They were provided with loans from our tax money to prop their new Government up.

    The people of the Crimea did not agree with this and showed this with peaceful demonstrations. Anonymous snipers and violence by Ukrainian troops turned these demonstrations into demands for independence from Kiev. Whether you support these separatist movements is immaterial, considering the blatant Imperialism of the West.

    Russia is wrongly accused, without evidence or investigation, of delivering the weapons systems that allegedly brought down MH17. For this reason Western Governments claim they have a right to economically pressure Russia.

    We, awake citizens of the West, who see the lies and machinations of our Governments, wish to offer you our apologies for what is done in our name.
    It's unfortunately true, that our media have lost all independence and are just mouthpieces for the Powers that Be. Because of this, Western people tend to have a warped view of reality and are unable to hold their politicians to account.

    Our hopes are focused on your wisdom. We want Peace. We see that Western Governments do not serve the people but are working towards a New World Order. The destruction of sovereign nations and the killing of millions of innocent people is, seemingly, a price worth paying for them, to achieve this goal.

    We, the people of the Netherlands, want Peace and Justice, also for and with Russia.
    We hope to make clear that the Dutch Government speaks for itself only. We pray our efforts will help to diffuse the rising tensions between our Nations.

    Sincerely,

    Professor Cees Hamelink

    FlangeTube, 29 August 2014 2:21pm

    An open letter from various Dutch professors and intellectuals. It was received a lot of attention in Europe, but somehow never made it across the channel. Weird.

    Dear Mr. President Putin,

    Please accept our apologies on behalf of a great many people here in the Netherlands for our Government and our Media. The facts concerning MH17 are twisted to defame you and your country.

    We are powerless onlookers, as we witness how the Western Nations, led by the United States, accuse Russia of crimes they commit themselves more than anybody else. We reject the double standards that are used for Russia and the West. In our societies, sufficient evidence is required for a conviction. The way you and your Nation are convicted for 'crimes' without evidence, is ruthless and despicable.

    You have saved us from a conflict in Syria that could have escalated into a World War. The mass killing of innocent Syrian civilians through gassing by 'Al-­‐Qaeda' terrorists, trained and armed by the US and paid for by Saudi Arabia, was blamed on Assad. In doing so, the West hoped public opinion would turn against Assad, paving the way for an attack on Syria.

    Not long after this, Western forces have built up, trained and armed an 'opposition' in the Ukraine, to prepare a coup against the legitimate Government in Kiev. The putschists taking over were quickly recognized by Western Governments. They were provided with loans from our tax money to prop their new Government up.

    The people of the Crimea did not agree with this and showed this with peaceful demonstrations. Anonymous snipers and violence by Ukrainian troops turned these demonstrations into demands for independence from Kiev. Whether you support these separatist movements is immaterial, considering the blatant Imperialism of the West.

    Russia is wrongly accused, without evidence or investigation, of delivering the weapons systems that allegedly brought down MH17. For this reason Western Governments claim they have a right to economically pressure Russia.

    We, awake citizens of the West, who see the lies and machinations of our Governments, wish to offer you our apologies for what is done in our name.
    It's unfortunately true, that our media have lost all independence and are just mouthpieces for the Powers that Be. Because of this, Western people tend to have a warped view of reality and are unable to hold their politicians to account.

    Our hopes are focused on your wisdom. We want Peace. We see that Western Governments do not serve the people but are working towards a New World Order. The destruction of sovereign nations and the killing of millions of innocent people is, seemingly, a price worth paying for them, to achieve this goal.

    We, the people of the Netherlands, want Peace and Justice, also for and with Russia.
    We hope to make clear that the Dutch Government speaks for itself only. We pray our efforts will help to diffuse the rising tensions between our Nations.

    Sincerely,

    Professor Cees Hamelink

    Sergei Konyushenko, 29 August 2014 2:21pm

    Speaking at a news conference in Washington, the US president said Russia was encouraging, training, arming and funding separatists in the region and warned Moscow that it faced further isolation.

    Well it's funny who was encouraging, training, arming and funding the radicals in Syria , in a way more evident way then Russian bogeyman incursion ?
    It's not Russia who created ISIS, which is a threat for decades now to all the western states who were glad to send their fighters to Syria?

    And i am quite interested, why is all the western MSM machine has recently switched into the total silence mode about MH17?

    MrSmart, 29 August 2014 2:22pm

    'Russian President Vladimir Putin has compared Ukrainian military tactics to those used by German Nazi forces during the Second World War invasion of the Soviet Union.'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28985715

    Indeed! So what is Puting going to do about saving lives?

    Is it not time for Russia to help workers and people in Ukraine and send in some ''humantarian'' peacekeeping forces to defend the workers and people in Eastern Ukraine from Neo-Nazi Kiev slaughter and while there remove the fascist EU backed Neo-Nazis gangsters from Kiev!

    The 'humantarian' mission [sic] in Libya can be cited by Putin to save lives in eastern Ukraine! Or doesn't the same 'humantarian' principle apply when it comes to the slaughter of workers and people in Ukraine who oppose the US EU backed Kiev gangster Neo-Nazi coupists?

    Where's the Red Army?

    'America's Neo-Nazi Government in Kiev. Towards a Scenario of Military Escalation? '

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/americas-neo-nazi-government-in-kiev-towards-a-scenario-of-military-escalation/5380384

    MrSmart -> MrSmart, 29 August 2014 2:36pm

    'The US says it is supplying Ukraine with non-lethal military equipment, including radios, vehicles and "non-lethal individual tactical gear".

    'The US is also sharing some intelligence information with Ukraine, the New York Times reports. But that does not include real-time data on potential targets, the paper's sources say.

    'Ukraine is not in Nato - so that restricts the kind of military help the West can provide legally.

    ''There are unconfirmed reports that US military advisers have been helping Ukraine in its major offensive against the rebels in July-August.''

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28969784

    Hottentot, 29 August 2014 2:22pm

    Putin is right the Ukrainian forces are behaving like Nazis.

    As for the state departments spokeswoman saying Russia has … stepped up its presence in eastern Ukraine and intervened directly with combat forces, armoured vehicles, artillery, and surface-to-air systems, and is actively fighting Ukrainian forces as well as playing a direct supporting role to the separatists' proxies and mercenaries" - breath-taking hypocrisy, she needs, like the US, to look at itself first before pointing the finger at Russia.

    So Putin has pushed the notch up another point by saying Russia's interests are increasing in the Arctic ..... imagine there will be a lot of teddies flying across rooms and dummies being spat out in the white house etc. the US has more than met its match, and about time too.

    Shaneo, 29 August 2014 2:24pm

    Putin likens Ukraine's forces to Nazis and threatens standoff in the Arctic

    We launch a coup on his doorstep and then put sanctions on him over the fall-out.

    What did we think would happen?

    Nik Ivanovsky, 29 August 2014 2:25pm

    • LINK: Exclusive win: Saur-Grave mound captured militia Donbass!

    Saur-Grave mound occupied by militias: exclusive footage truthful "First Channel" Russia. In Kiev, the mantra is repeated: "Height under the control of the anti-terrorist operation." But the real situation will not change. And they did not present evidence. And these pictures will not show all the more.

    • LINK: Tragedy: another fire claimed the lives of Donetsk 16 civilians

    All day punitive Ukrainian Army was shelling of residential buildings in Donetsk. Huge losses, retreat, panic, desertion - mismanagement of Ukrainian troops command explains a good preparation oppose them militias.

    • LINK: Valentina Semenyuk was killed!

    There is a struggle for resources. There is a struggle for that tomorrow on someone's request did not sell the Ukrainian land. And then we'll just live in colonial slavery. So I have to ask you. Please do not go to the Maidan. Because the demands posed by the International Monetary Fund, tomorrow will fall on the shoulders of the citizens of Ukraine ...

    umut gezer -> Nik Ivanovsky, 29 August 2014 2:28pm

    The western media will never mention and publish the news the torture, murder and mistreatment by the hands of junta forces.

    edelamsee, 29 August 2014 2:26pm

    The Rand foundation, a highly influential thinktank, published a white paper only last year, laying out future plans of the USA. It proposes the partition of Russia into many, but ineffectual states. The same happens already in the Middle East. Bidden, while still senator, proposed partition of Iraq into three ineffectual states. ISIS is not a terrorist organization which came out of the blue. It was financed and trained in Jordan by the Cia. It is there to destabilize the whole of the Middle East, and only bombed by Obama, once it threatens US interests directly, like in Ibril.

    And it is a very useful tool to deprive UK and US citizens further of their liberties.
    And as to ID 5252799, I not only do not mind being close to Russia. I love to be in Russia...the most hospitable place I have been to.

    Freddy1957, 29 August 2014 2:27pm

    The only way to restore democracy in the Ukraine after the fascist putsch in Kiev is an anschluss with Russia.

    The right sektor sowed the wind, they must now reap the Russian whirlwind.

    Iaorana, 29 August 2014 2:27pm

    They were American mercenaries fighting the Mexican army in Texas before proclaming a phony republic and then asking fot its annexation by the US.This did not lead to wider annexations as some pessimistic experts in geopolitics would like to have us to believe in the case of Russia.

    zelazny, 29 August 2014 2:28pm

    The Guardian reads much like the NYT -- a mouthpiece for western military interests.

    "Russia's latest alleged interventions in Ukraine" The Guardian states this as a fact, but gets this "fact" from people like Rasmussen, Merkel, Cameron, and Obama and their spokespeople.

    During this entire Ukraine debacle, the US and its allies have told many lies the Guardian and the rest of the press reports as truth.

    The Guardian and the rest of the western press basically have ignored Victoria Nuland's intercepted phone call in which she outlines the US coup plot.

    The US fears peaceful relationships between the EU and Russia, because that would open up an enormous economic zone from the channel (leaving out England, the US poodle) all the way to Kamchatka next to Alaska. Even the Alaskan economy would lean toward this new entity because of its much greater proximity to Kamchatka than to say, San Francisco or LA.

    NorthWestFeather -> zelazny, 29 August 2014 2:37pm

    European leaders are too weak to admit the US does not have their best economic interest in mind. Maybe Merkel will be pressured enough to wake up. The German economy is showing signs of fatigue and Western Ukraine, Poland and such won't have the buying power of Russia. Western media has been minimizing the negative impact of anti-Russian measures on European economy but people are grumbling a lot, more and more loudly.

    Sergei Konyushenko, 29 August 2014 2:30pm

    Samantha Power, US ambassador to the UN, accused Russia of lying about its involvement in Ukraine. "It has manipulated. It has obfuscated. It has outright lied," she said.

    Nobody has yet done more for a destruction of Ukraine, as the US. You Samantha should thank your Pyaat and Nuland.

    NorthWestFeather, 29 August 2014 2:31pm

    the prime minister, Arseny Yatseniuk, said he would try to take the country into Nato

    This was the objective of the coup in Kiev.

    94region, 29 August 2014 2:32pm

    The photo "Russian soldiers near the border with Ukraine. Photograph: Alexander Demianchuk/Reuters" also can be called "Iraq soldiers near the border with USA". And then begin to bomb Iraq. Where are badges of rank? And how the author can prove that it is the border? Ah, EU media is the most true in the world!

    As for photo "A satellite image showing what Nato claims are self-propelled Russian artillery units inside Ukraine. Photograph: Nato/DigitalGlobe/EPA". It is known for each serviceman that all tactical movements must be done at night because of satellites observe. And where are GPS-coordinates on photo?

    This photos were made taking into account of mental deficiency of west population.population.

    Blofal, 29 August 2014 2:32pm

    This is all much more complicated than most people realise.

    The "West" has been overthrowing governments and installing preferred ones for some time. This is done by funding and equipping opposition political and ethnic groups, causing civil unrest and biased media influence.

    The USA was convicted by the world court of one such case involving Nicaragua but the USA refuses to recognise the International Court of Justice. You can read the ruling here:

    http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?sum=367&p1=3&p2=3&case=70&p3=5

    This same method has been used to overthrow many governments but those most recently have included Libya, Egypt, Syria and now Ukraine.

    The idea of overthrowing the "Pro-Russian" Ukranian government and installing a pro western government was primarily to have Ukraine join NATO and to nullify Russia's military and naval bases in the black sea (Crimea) strategically isolating Russia. And lets not forget the Star Wars program and placing missles in Poland. This has been going on for a while.

    Antony C, 29 August 2014 2:33pm

    Please support this petition: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/fulfill-ukrainian-governments-request-military-assistance/2p7t3d4W

    Fulfill the Ukrainian government's request for military assistance
    Columns of Russian military vehicles openly enter Ukraine as proved by the western journalists. The West must adequately respond to these alarming signs of a full-scale official Russian invasion that threatens peace in the whole world.

    The authorities in Kyiv have asked for military assistance from Washington. We hereby request the President Obama and Congress to support Ukrainians in their struggle against Russian agression and to fulfill the Ukrainian government's request for military assistance. Please, repost.

    Juritiba -> Antony C, 29 August 2014 2:49pm

    My friend, Amιrica has been covertly supporting Ukraine even before Maidan Square.
    As long as the US is running the show in Kiev, there will be conflict. The whole coup Project is backfiring big time and the US is being too slow to recognize it.

    Richmondecology, 29 August 2014 2:36pm

    Objectively it must be said - that Ukraine & Kiev do consist of wealthy tyrants who have betrayed their Big Society for self greed
    & use Nationalism to advance and cover errors

    remember it was July 17th when Plane went bang! & Israel caused death & misery in Gaza
    so who is pulling whose strings ?

    fisherpricetuxedo, 29 August 2014 2:38pm

    Anyone else noticed the Mainstream media have wholesale stopped blaming Russia and Separatists for MH17?

    Take a closer look at Ukraine, the truth is there to be seen and the dark forces who were behind Maidan continue to operate with the same shady agenda.

    Xoxarle, 29 August 2014 2:39pm

    If the USA can invade Iraq without any demonstrated threat or international sanctions, then why can't Russia invade Ukraine, where there are security considerations, ethnic ties and geographical proximity?

    The thing that idiot Bush and his puppet master Cheney never figured out is that Do As I Say Not As I Do never works when dealing with other military powers.

    Anette Mor -> putin_the_fabulous, 29 August 2014 2:51pm

    Siberia independance! :-)))) ha ha. Moving capital would solve it. i was born in Moscow. Bunch of self obsessed idiots. Sold the country for chewing gam and blue jeans in 1990 and just about to sold it again for holiday home in europe. There is not any Russia without Siberia. Russia is not a country. It is a constantly evolving search for own collective consciences. Now it moves east. So we all Russians do.

    AlexRussia, 29 August 2014 2:40pm

    Putin: United States and European countries are fully involved in the process by a violent change of power in Ukraine

    Western countries have carried out a coup d'etat in Ukraine, based on a fairly radical nationalist elements. "We all understand - he said - is that mean? Full involvement and the United States, and European countries in the process by a violent, unconstitutional change of government. "

    RISClives -> AlexRussia, 29 August 2014 2:49pm

    I have nothing agains Ucranians, but that government is indeed a fascist government, according to any definition of the word: it took power by force, it stays in power by force, it represents the oligarchs and high-finance and imposes austerity measures on its people.

    MrSmart, 29 August 2014 2:42pm

    'US-NATO's Strategic Objective: The Creation of a West Slavic neo-Nazi Reich. The Separation of Ukraine from Russia'

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-natos-strategic-objective-the-creation-of-a-west-slavic-neo-nazi-reich-the-separation-of-ukraine-from-russia/5398134

    lostinbago, 29 August 2014 2:44pm

    "the US president said Russia was encouraging, training, arming and funding separatists in the region"

    Unlike the US encouraging, training, arming and funding in regions around the world in places like Vietnam, Chiang Kai Shek, Honduras, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, and yes, encouragement to the neo nazis that took over Ukraine in a coup.
    We do the same things in regions thousands of miles from our border and condemn the admittedly unsavory Putin for doing the same on his border. Russia has historical reason for fearing right wing militarists on its borders since they lost 11 million to the last fascist group to develop in central Europe.

    FlangeTube -> lostinbago, 29 August 2014 2:55pm

    Don't forget the Syrians.

    You can't miss them. They are the ones with the black flags and the fleet of brand new Toyota SUVs.

    FlangeTube -> r0nin66, 29 August 2014 3:09pm

    From the Guardian's own website:

    A larger problem [than Bots] on these threads is users accusing each other of being "bots", "trolls" or "astroturfers", usually wrongly. These accusations do break the community standards (they're essentially abusive statements) and moderators take a hand here. We will also, obviously, act against abusive statements at the expense of our writers, of which Luke receives a substantial number. Those are more likely to be the reason for us taking action on these threads. It's only when an account crosses those lines that we step in.

    So there you go. Talk about the issues, or you're part of the problem.

    FlangeTube -> r0nin66, 29 August 2014 3:09pm

    From the Guardian's own website:

    A larger problem [than Bots] on these threads is users accusing each other of being "bots", "trolls" or "astroturfers", usually wrongly. These accusations do break the community standards (they're essentially abusive statements) and moderators take a hand here. We will also, obviously, act against abusive statements at the expense of our writers, of which Luke receives a substantial number. Those are more likely to be the reason for us taking action on these threads. It's only when an account crosses those lines that we step in.

    So there you go. Talk about the issues, or you're part of the problem.

    WatchfulGuardian, 29 August 2014 2:46pm

    Why doesn't the CIA simply send two of their Russian-speaking agents to an undercover mission into east Ukraine, let them insinuate themselves into the rebels' trust, take some pictures with their iPhones, and then report back to Washington? A sure-fire way to obtain some proof. Of course, if there is any to obtain...

    Anette Mor -> WatchfulGuardian, 29 August 2014 2:53pm

    There are a lot of spys within rebels.

    johhnybgood, 29 August 2014 2:47pm

    Russia is a threat to US/UK imperialist domination, therefore it must be destroyed. That is what this is all about. The propaganda is mindblowing. Where is the Western condemnation of the murder of 2000 civilians in Eastern Ukraine?
    If it were up to me, I would invade Kiev, take out the nazi government, and declare Ukraine part of Russia. Lucky then, that Putin is more considered, and is still looking for a diplomatic solution.

    rmfillingham, 29 August 2014 2:49pm

    "General "Buck" Turgidson: Mr. President, if I may speak freely, the Russkie talks big, but frankly, we think he's short of know how. I mean, you just can't expect a bunch of ignorant peons to understand a machine like some of our boys. And that's not meant as an insult, Mr. Ambassador, I mean, you take your average Russkie, we all know how much guts he's got. Hell, look at all them them Nazis killed off and they still wouldn't quit.
    Dr. Strangelove.
    Stanley Kubrick. 1964.

    Sometimes works of genius have an unfortunate tendency to ring worryingly true.

    Black Cat, 29 August 2014 2:51pm

    From the BBC:

    Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said that "despite hollow denials", it was now clear that Russia had illegally crossed Ukraine's border.

    He said Nato would respect any Ukrainian decision on security, after its PM said he was putting the country on course for Nato membership.

    How else to interpret this? We are about to accept Ukraine, a country riven by civil war, into NATO. But what will this mean for the rebels in the east? For the rest of Europe?

    How many people in the US, UK, Europe would support a NATO move against the rebels? A possible confrontation with Russia? A conflict that would carry a very high risk of nuclear war?

    And over what? A dispute over autonomy in a few eastern oblasts that could be settled by a few days of talks and a bit of mutual compromise?

    1DrSigmundFraud, 29 August 2014 2:53pm

    - Fourteen Characteristics of Fascism -

    1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

    2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

    3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

    4. Supremacy of the Military Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

    5. Rampant Sexism The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

    6. Controlled Mass Media Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

    7. Obsession with National Security Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

    8. Religion and Government are Intertwined Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

    9. Corporate Power is Protected The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

    10. Labor Power is Suppressed Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

    11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

    12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

    13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

    14. Fraudulent Elections Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
    Dr. Lawrence Britt
    Russia no America YES As for the Ukraine Kiev rabble they want to be the Waffen ss but it's all mouth BS killing civilians is their limit

    MrSvejk, 29 August 2014 2:57pm

    he's right, America is run by the far right corporate gangsters, who have mercilessly murdered millions, after years of building up the worlds most expensive weapons arsenal, they are now bankrupt, all America has today is its vast war machine, they know that they can't repay China a fraction of what they owe, so world war III is the only thing that will save corporate America, an this Ukraine bull is part of this process

    ThinkerX55, 29 August 2014 2:57pm

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28329329

    Anton Shekhovtsov, a prominent expert on far-right and neo-Nazi movements in Europe, believes the Ukrainian government should be clear about whom it is arming to fight for Ukraine's democratic cause.

    "It is a pressing concern, especially with regards to the anti-terrorist operation," he said. "In my view, the war against pro-Russia separatists is the war for democratic values. Neo-Nazis are as dangerous as pro-Russia extremists in eastern Ukraine."

    Indeed, with the big difference being that we aren't giving money to Russian ultra nationalists or nazis, however many there may be.

    Nazis tried to kill my parents during WW2 and I'm fucked if I want the UK helping Ukrainian ones.

    Kalandar, 29 August 2014 2:58pm

    The leaders of Europe need to develop a spine and boot the USA from their countries. The USA is in terminal decline and the petrol - dollar nexus must be destroyed.

    ShermanPotter -> Kalandar, 29 August 2014 3:05pm

    If the USA is in terminal decline, why are you so worried about it?

    AlexRussia, 29 August 2014 2:58pm

    Well, since the mask was thrown away, as Obama said, and Putin confirmed this calling Obama the main beneficiary of the crisis in Ukraine, the game is about to begin tough. Hang in Europe and America - deal with the Russian - it's not you shoot down defenseless airplanes and publish silly pictures. Beautiful speeches about humanism aside.

    LetsBeClear, 29 August 2014 2:58pm

    So now we have another democratically elected government – Poroshenko was elected, he is not a "putschist", to use a snazzy word – but Russia doesn't like this one as much as the other one, so it is waging a covert proxy war to undermine it.

    But that's okay! Because evil US/NATO/EU has backed plenty of coups in the past, so Putin should be allowed to do it too.
    Have I got that right?

    kenlinuk -> LetsBeClear, 29 August 2014 3:15pm

    Did East Ukraine vote in the elections?

    Anette Mor -> LetsBeClear, 29 August 2014 3:16pm

    Russia gives no dum. As long as he starts talking and stops killing. He might be just about to do so. Lets give him a chance.

    Crobert, 29 August 2014 2:59pm

    Time for America to listen to the European people when they demand the US and its military leave Europe. Putin is a European issue now. Let a EU defense force deal with Vladi.

    amarita, 29 August 2014 3:02pm

    "Barack Obama accused Russia of sending troops into Ukraine and fuelling an upsurge in the separatist war..."

    funny how US, UK and NATO had no problems funding and training kosovo albanian separatists and violating serbia's territorial integrity.

    thefeck, 29 August 2014 3:02pm

    As far as one can see, Russia is being accused of not willing to let those Maidan raid stooges out at large. It's just allegedly a no-no aiding the insurgent "mercenaries" and their stakeholder populace in working their way through this staged mess. One is led to presume it's alright to still refer to those thugs in Syria as "rebels," now that they have taken the UN peacekeepers hostage and hence amount to little but one other Isis wing. So the question is, do these designated schizophrenic talking heads have a theory beyond incessant eye rolling and frowning upon whatever runs counter to their plans and pet-peeves?

    VERBALWARRIOR, 29 August 2014 3:02pm

    In the modern world, just as throughout human history, one either supports those who supports oneself and or who has resources conducive to maintaining ones own existance, or seeks to put in place those who will be friendly and provide access to existinal resources. One may even go as far as to support those of gross obnoxiousness, if it means continuation of maintaining ones own nation/society and existinal "strengths".

    We help bad guys, because it maintains us, no different to helping good guys who support us.

    Thing is, even some good guys may not like us or want to help us maintain our position, so we then maybe even attempt to replace them with bad guys, who WILL support us.

    At the end of the day, millions in Uk benefit from treating other peoples like dirt, paying them £$1/ £$ 2 a day to grow, produce and manufacture all and sundry to meet our needs. Most of those people are governed by "bad guys", corrupt & criminal & inhumane animals, who would put a bullet in anyones head if they were to rock the boat. YOUR CONSUMERISM, maintains this, so please stop being a complete shypocrite and moan about behaviours of governments when YOUR OWN consumer demands create and maintain such regimes anyway.

    Freddy1957, 29 August 2014 3:04pm

    Credit due where credit`s due, Putin`s boxing clever, he`s in the same ring with three or four different opponents all at once, and he has them all on the ropes floundering.

    Putin`s been running rings round these lightweights for a bit now, maybe they should throw the towel in and save themselves from further punishment.

    Kalandar, 29 August 2014 3:05pm

    The stench of propoganda from the western corporate media has reached unprecedented levels. The West can never defeat Russia.

    rampart, 29 August 2014 3:06pm

    Sorry ukrains, but I give as much of a toss about you.........as you do me -- After blowing up a civilian aircraft and doing everything to deny it and blame russia.................you really think I care what happens to your nation ?

    Cousin2, 29 August 2014 3:08pm

    NATO Deputy Secretary-General Alexander Vershbow is on all channels this morning basically saying Ukraine will not/not be allowed in and any support is up to individual NATO members. So our policy is we will hold Ukraine's coat while it fights Putin.What else can NATO members, especially the US, do after repeated violations of other nations' sovereignty over the last decade and more? What goes around, comes around.

    Aldous Huxley, 29 August 2014 3:10pm

    "A satellite image showing what Nato 'claims' are self-propelled Russian artillery units inside Ukraine."

    They look like cement trucks and water tankers to me. I think NATO is lying. here we have the 'Guardian' abetting NATO's lies by using such a crappy low-resolution picture for this story.

    SomersetApples -> Aldous Huxley, 29 August 2014 3:18pm

    This is no more significant than the Tonkin Gulf incident and the pictures that Colin Powel had of WMD.

    supnorm, 29 August 2014 3:11pm

    Yatsenyuk told today that Ukraine would apply for membership in NATO. I picked up this line in this wiki article on Ukraine-NATO relations :

    Prime Minister Vladimir Putin allegedly declared at a NATO-Russia summit in 2008 that if Ukraine joined NATO his country could contend to annex the Ukrainian East and Crimea.

    I am pretty sure the situation is going to escalate rapidly from now. There is no way Putin is going to let Donetsk, Lugansk and other oblasts which were part of Novorossiya come under NATO control.

    supnorm -> 1Slavik1, 29 August 2014 3:26pm

    Maybe you need a history lesson. Here is a wiki article on Novorossiya .

    The region was conquered by the Russian Empire at the end of the 18th century from the Ottoman Empire and remained under its control until the October Revolution and the collapse of the empire in 1917. In modern terms this historic territory overlaid what is now Donetsk Oblast, small portions of Luhansk Oblast, Dnipropetrovsk Oblast, Zaporizhia Oblast, Mykolaiv Oblast, Kherson Oblast, Odessa Oblast and Crimea in Ukraine, Krasnodar Krai, Stavropol Krai, Rostov Oblast, and the Republic of Adygea in Russia.

    Aldous Huxley, 29 August 2014 3:13pm

    "Obama again ruled out US military action, but threatened a further tightening of sanctions."

    Obama knows if he instituted a draft to fight Russia he'd have military insurrection on his hands in a heart beat.

    The scum who run the NATO powers are afraid of one thing... waking up the sleeping people of their own nations.

    Black Cat, 29 August 2014 3:13pm

    Ukraine's ambassador to Canada begs for troops to counter Russian invasion

    Prystaiko said his country appreciates Canada's previous support of non-lethal equipment, but insists it's time for "real" military support.

    Prystaiko wants Canada and its allies to provide fighter jets – such as Canada's CF-18s – to help the Ukraine military with air support, as well as rifles, armoured vehicles, surveillance equipment and any other support that can help Ukraine in this "war."

    He said he personally wants NATO to provide troops on the ground, but noted that wasn't his country's official position yet, and conceded many countries will be unwilling to put their troops in harm's way.

    "I'm asking them to help us with military equipment," he said. "We are thankful for the protective gear they gave us … but now we need real support. We need to fight."

    The word "invasion" doesn't even get qualifying quotes. Nothing to prove it even happened. It's as ghostly as the WMDs in Iraq, but already the solution is being floated. Canadian troops in Ukraine. NATO troops in Ukraine. The normalising of the unthinkable by degrees. The creep to war backed by howling propaganda.

    A replay of 2003. We may be about to enter the last war of all, based on a foolish lie and a mistranslation.

    LetsBeClear, 29 August 2014 3:17pm

    Here is what's getting passed around as "proof" that America orchestrated the "putsch" against Yanukovych.

    1. Nuland on the phone planning the make up of a post-coup government. Refers to Yats as "our guy".http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26079957

    2. John McCain visiting both Right Sector leader and Yats, december 2013: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vqbLZvMkNkY/UypyrlwA_uI/AAAAAAAAVFY/orLW98o8M9E/s1600/280214mccain.jpg

    3. John Brennan, head of the CIA, goes to Kiev to "advise" the new government: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/14/john-brennan-ukraine_n_5147869.html

    4. Wikileaks leaked cable calling the Ukraine joining NATO "inevitable".
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/225319

    5. Blackwater mercenaries fighting for Kiev forces. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2576490/Are-Blackwater-active-Ukraine-Videos-spark-talk-U-S-mercenary-outfit-deployed-Donetsk.html

    yamgourchii, 29 August 2014 3:17pm

    what is mere surprising :that in english elementary schools teenagers are tought about mythical numbers of starved to death victims in1933 in ukraine{6-12 millions}. just imagine this fantastical quantity comparing with whole population in ukraine in 1933 being of near 30 mln. The truth is that in rusiia there were much more losses in that time.but russians never blamed ukranians for their compatriots kahanovitch, chrushev, epstein etc for doing genocide to russian people. it were just crazy, unhappy times for all. russia is a country with unpredictable history,with alien help,for sure. and ,above all, russians never ve been ukrophobs, anglophobs, yankophobs, even polonophobs, truth always wins, not lye.

    Anette Mor -> yamgourchii, 29 August 2014 3:23pm

    The part if ukraine which rants about this the most was not even within Russia at that time. Donbas was. But most losss were in Volga river within Russia. This crup worked well to turn Ukranians into anti-russian paranoia. why not use in British schools in addition to daily mail. My in laws call my husband once to tell him I am arested after seeing police car at the end of street. Natural evalution after handing over daily mail cuts about "russian bitches trainibg thier husbands" . Paranoia is a stong thing. Gets heads off in now time. Useful tool before the big war.

    inabster, 29 August 2014 3:19pm

    Putin is absolutely correct.

    Shame on those who attempt to trivialize atrocities committed by neo-Nazis.

    I ain't Russian, I am a Brit, and the anti-Kiev militias are fighting for people like me, for Jews massacred in WW2 by Hitler's Nazis.

    Of course, the similarities are obvious, and the Bandera lovers from West Ukraine are monsters whose ideology need to be exorcised from Eastern Europe.

    RT are doing a terrific job letting us know what is really going on, no thanks to the likes of our MSM obfuscators.

    blue79, 29 August 2014 3:22pm

    CENSORSHIP at the mouthpeace of the Rotshield cabal propaganda-"the guardian"-yes indeed a guardiand for the pedophile satanist cabal-is just startling!!!

    Babeouf, 29 August 2014 3:24pm

    Well how are the wingers for Ukraine today. When I went to bed last night . it was a desperate situation the Ruskies had invaded. Amazingly the Ruskie invasion had no effect at all. And seems to of stopped ,presumably as a result of the Glorious activities of the Ukraine army. And not at all because the Russian invasion was just an excuse to cover up the decrepit state of Ukraine's military . And the incompetence of the Chocolate Soldier's generals. Now the KyivPost is covering the Ukrainian soldiers who won't fight because they have nothing to fight with. But don't let that stop your strong support of these lions led by donkeys. There don't seem to be any new EU sanctions and strangely no new US sanctions. On the plus side Putin has just said 'no big foreign military commitments by Russia' on the minus side he doesn't consider wiping Ukraine's clock a big military commitment. Astoundingly he still seems to want a deal with the Chocolate Soldier and his scurvy crew.

    kalleblomqvist, 29 August 2014 3:24pm

    "Iraq has WMDs. It is not something we think, it is something we know. Iraq has itself admitted that it has had mustard gas, nerve gas, anthrax, but Saddam won't disclose. He won't tell us where and how these weapons have been destroyed. We know this from the UN inspectors, so there is no doubt in my mind." - Anders Fogh Rasmussen, 2003.

    "Despite Moscow's hollow denials, it is now clear that Russian troops and equipment have illegally crossed the border into eastern and south-eastern Ukraine," - Anders Fogh Rasmussen, quoted above.

    (ORB estimates of dead due to US coalition invasion, Jan 2008: 1.033 million.)

    Денис Панкратов, 29 August 2014 3:26pm

    Quote from the article: "Nato ambassadors emerged from a meeting on Friday morning to accuse Russia of a" blatant violation "of Ukraine's sovereignty." Despite Moscow's hollow denials, it is now clear that Russian troops and equipment have illegally crossed the border into eastern and south-eastern Ukraine, "its secretary general Anders Fogh Rasmussen said".

    Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe do not have objective evidence of the presence of the Russian army in the Ukraine. This was reported on the website of radio station Deutschlandradio Kultur.
    Source: http://www.deutschlandradiokultur.de/ukraine-konflikt-uns-fehlen-die-objektiven-informationen.1008.de.html?dram:article_id=296004

    Anders Fogh Rasmussen - a worthy competitor to the Hans Christian Andersen. Bravo!

    [Aug 28, 2014] Ukraine: emergency UN, Nato, EU meetings after Russian invasion claim by Shaun Walker

    From comments: "Invasion? Spinvasion?"... "Ah pictures remind of WMDs getting transported by Sadam Hussain, Nato and US bombed Iraq after that allegations which resulted in the death of more than million innocents Iraqis. It also resulted in Tony Blair to because middle east peace envoy. "
    Aug 28, 2014 | The Guardian

    retsdon, 28 August 2014 8:20pm

    The Russian government knows what everyone else knows - that the legitimate and elected government of Ukraine was overthrown by a coup which was largely organized and financed by western spooks. Nothing new there - it's been done countless times before....
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aqIHKWd9rSc

    A democratic solution to avert the coup was rejected - Yanukovych Offers Early Presidential Vote to End Crisis ... - and the rest is history.

    The Russian government also knows that the underlying conflict is about control of the massive Caucasus hydrocarbon reserves. and US geopolitical ambitions to control - or at least prevent Russian control - of them. That is why Ukraine had to be forcibly extracted from the Russian orbit of influence by the coup before any new agreement with Russia could be signed.

    Russia believes that the west - and particularly the Americans - are playing a very dirty game and are not to be trusted. Evidence is on their side, quite frankly. Consequently, post-coup they were forced to make a decision. Do nothing - and risk having a US influenced Ukraine renege on the lease of Sevastopol, or secure a vital Russian strategic interest. They chose the latter course. That they did it with a local democratic vote is a propaganda plus, but they'd have likely done it anyway. They had no choice.

    The Donbas regional conflict is different in that it's Ukrainian in origin. The people of the east had voted overwhelmingly for the Party of Regions, and had just seen their chosen government overthrown. So, emboldened by the Maidan coup and the Crimean annexation they pushed for some kind of autonomy. People took over buildings, waved flags, etc,etc, - Maidan style. In the heady days of early summer they held a shambolic local vote which was dismissed, not only by Kiev and the west, but also by the Russian government. The east then came out in open revolt, with locals armed with Baikal shotguns and Brno hunting rifles dressing themselves up and setting up checkpoints. Then came the massacre in Odessa and the mood got very ugly. New presidential elections were held, and Poroshenko was elected. His election was recognized not just by the west, but also by the Russian government.

    Now here's where it all went off the rails. Poroshenko initially seemed amenable to negotiation but then - almost certainly pushed by Brennan (shale oil deposits) - he changed his tune and the war began in earnest.

    Putin has maintained all along that the war is an internal Ukrainian dispute - and he's mostly right. That said, eastern Ukraine is largely Russian speaking; many locals have ties to Russia; and it was - and still isn't - possible politically for Putin, who also has a domestic audience, to simply leave the Donbas rebels to their fate.

    The Russian position all along has been that the solution is negotiation. But victory or defeat is no basis for negotiation. My guess is that the Russians have taken a decision to do as little as possible -commensurate with not allowing the rebels to be militarily defeated. They intend to make the war un-winnable for Poroshenko, forcing him to come to some kind of sensible accommodation.

    if this is actually the Russian position, it makes a lot of sense. Firstly, in the long run, a sensible compromise would be best for Ukraine as a whole - if not for Biden junior and Chevron. Secondly, the war - despite the gloss put on the cracks - is opening quite serious policy rifts between Europe and the US. And the longer the war goes on, the wider those rifts will become.

    As long as the Russians back the rebels, they won't lose militarily. In the end, the protagonists will have to negotiate and Russia's position will be vindicated. And Brennan's war will have proved a bust.

    carlygirl, 28 August 2014 8:21pm
    Right emergency meeting for Ukraine and it's illegal elections that have caused this mess but ISIS beheading people left and right and they can barely drag themselves away from a golf game to offer up 'consultant's.

    The West and the UN are a disgrace to humanity. Obviously only 'WASP's' people count when it's a crisis, everyone else can just eat cake.

    FuzzySpider -> carlygirl, 28 August 2014 8:53pm
    I don't remember an emergency meeting when NATO countries illegally invaded Iraq in 2003, or when the USA sent a squad of assassins into Pakistan to kill Osama Bin-Laden (without any due process).

    Might makes right it seems.

    Hektor Uranga, 28 August 2014 8:22pm
    So the meeting in Minsk didn΄t went so well after all.
    edwardrice -> Hektor Uranga, 28 August 2014 8:33pm
    Not for Poroshenko.

    Germany's Angela Merkel has said Ukraine is free to "go to" Russia's "Eurasian Union", amid signs of a new willingness to make peace with Russian leader Vladimir Putin.

    Speaking to German public broadcaster ARD on Sunday (24 August), the German chancellor said her visit to Kiev on Saturday was designed to prepare for peace talks between Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko and Putin in Minsk on Tuesday, but warned the public not to expect a "breakthrough".

    Merkel said,

    "I want to find a way, as many others do, which does not damage Russia. We [Germany] want to have good trade relations with Russia as well. We want reasonable relations with Russia. We are depending on one another and there are so many other conflicts in the world where we should work together, so I hope we can make progress".

    http://euobserver.com/foreign/125331

    SergeyFromRussia, 28 August 2014 8:22pm
    Panic in western MSM after Ukrainian troops are losing their positions.
    ParapolitikosTypos, 28 August 2014 8:24pm
    What excactly makes those vehicles "Russian"? and not units of the NAF or most Likely the Ukrainian army?
    Nato could give us detailed images down to showing the license plates, why are they giving us images fro hundreds of meters, and in black and white?
    Why didnt they show from where the convoy originated, with multiple images to show the direction they took and their inevitable destination?
    This is an images that is evidence of ABSOLUTE NOTHING!
    Smell like a rat, moves like a rat, probably a rat.
    AlbertStubbins , 28 August 2014 8:27pm
    Given the crimes committed by the pro coup Ukraine forces, I think it was inevitable the Russians responded. The insertion of a few thousand ground troops to prevent all out assault on Donetsk seems a reasonable course of action.
    yamba, 28 August 2014 8:29pm
    Pretty much turning out like many said it would as it all started a couple of months ago.

    Russian simply cannot lose this conflict, because they will not accept that and when it really comes down to it, the Ukraine isn't a reason to start a nuclear war.

    Nuland and her group are basically super idiots for causing this stand off. It would be good if the Western governments could start objectively appraising the success of their foreign policies and drawing some hard conclusions. Like in the private economy some people are making huge careers out of being very poor at their jobs-- they need to go!

    And look out if Hillary wins the Presidency.

    Talkthetalk, 28 August 2014 8:31pm
    f the EU and the US had supported the establishment of a federal system in Ukraine this whole artificially created and phoney crisis could have been avoided. A federal system is the only long term solution and is the mature and level headed option. However the foreign policies of the EU and the US are neither mature nor level headed. Instead the West is pushing the situation more and more towards military aggression, blaming Russia for everything and supporting a coup created government in Kiev that for the first time in post war Europe contains neo Nazis. Before this crisis Ukraine enjoyed a far greater degree of individual political freedom than Russia, almost on a par with Western Europe. Today that has been reversed and Ukrainian society is in social and political chaos, not just in the east but all over. Now we are seeing rebellions breaking out in other parts of the country and today there is a large demonstration in Kiev protesting about the condition of soldiers fighting in the east. This is of course not reported by the mainscream media.

    What we are witnessing in terms of Western policy towards Ukraine is depraved and degenerate politics, backed up an echo chamber media (both liberal and right wing) which is demonising Russia and Putin on the one hand, and is keeping silent about the daily slaughter of the Russia speaking community by the Ukrainian military that is happening in the east, most notably by those neo Nazi elements that have been incorporated into its ranks. Where are the reports of their atrocities in papers like this one? Nowhere, the less Western populations know about all that the better! Where are the findings of the black box form the downed Malaysian plane that experts in the UK have had for weeks now? The public is being subjected to an almost daily propaganda campaign about Ukraine including reports of Russians convoys entering the country that turned out to be complete fiction. All this is taking the world to the potentially very dangerous reality of NATO forces confronting Russia. Western ambitions are destroying Ukraine just as they have destroyed Iraq, Libya and Syria.

    What we need is mature and level headed politics but what we have instead is a system driven by greed and hubris in which war makes misery for the many and huge profits for the very few.

    JJRichardson -> Talkthetalk, 28 August 2014 8:42pm
    Russia is driven by the same greed and desire for hegemony as the West. This about insane nationalists on all sides.
    yanburgh -> Talkthetalk, 28 August 2014 8:50pm
    Nonetheless, it should also be taken into account that many Eastern Ukrainians do not consider themselves Russian, despite calling Russian their native tongue.

    This seems to be the case in Mariupol.

    http://pressimus.com/Interpreter_Mag/press/4002

    I also know a fair deal of people from Donezk who have stated similar views.

    cardigansinbound -> Talkthetalk, 28 August 2014 8:55pm
    Yanukovych wasnt establishing a federal system. He was robbing the country blind.
    Talkthetalk -> JJRichardson, 28 August 2014 9:07pm
    Your argument doesn't make sense because the Russian elite wants to be part of the West. They have their investments here and send their children to schools in the UK and the US and didn't want this fight. That includes Putin who has been far more "looking West" than other Russian leaders. It is the Neo Con led West that has decided that there is more money to be made through arms and conflict and so have created this situation. First by training the thugs that overthrew the government in Ukraine and then supporting the new one in spite of the fact that it contains neo Nazis and is violently anti Russian even to extent of wanting to ban Russian as an official language.

    Russia is simply reacting nervously to these events and has no desire to take over territory in Europe. This whole created crisis is a Neo Con land grab for Ukraine and the echo chamber media has been happy go along with it by demonising Putin as if there was no such thing as Russian society or genuine and legitimate concerns of the Russian speaking communities in the east. It is a kind of madness that will suck us all in if we do not resist the propaganda that is being fed to us on a daily basis. Russia would agree to a federal system which is the only viable solution. When was the last time you heard a Western politician propose that?

    No, they are beating the drums of war because in an economic crisis that is how you make money. Russia wants to be part of the Capitalist West but the West has decided on another role for it: beloved enemy once again.

    DeMontreal, 28 August 2014 8:32pm
    1000 russian soldiers trash ukrainian army! Are they joking?
    bichomalo, 28 August 2014 8:32pm
    I don΄t see shit there There are supposed to be able to read a number plate and that was in the nineties!!!
    SoloRolo -> bichomalo, 28 August 2014 8:45pm
    I recall reading in the Guardian, not so long ago, that satellite photographs of Ukrainian terrain were so clear and sharp that it was possible to count empty beer bottles lying on the ground.
    Scipio1, 28 August 2014 8:34pm
    This my take on the situation. Forget the expected media hysteria to latest developments, Russian involvement has been taking place for some time past. However, there is no full scale Russian invasion and there is not going to be.

    The important thing to note is that Poroshenko is on the hook. He promised the situation in the east would be terminated within hours; then it became weeks, now it is months. He is running out of time and money and the radicals in Kiev are breathing down his neck. Putin knows this and the Russians will do just enough to stop Poroshenko winning and keep him on the hook, which makes the President's position increasingly untenable. Moreover the economic situation goes from bad to worse and winter is coming on with the problem of gas from Russia looming ever larger. The Russians are stonewalling and letting the Ukraine disintegrate. In the end Ukraine will have to come to the negotiating table or face a war in perpetuity with no prospect of winning.

    It should also be understood that neither NATO the US or the EU are going to be drawn into a full scale war with Russia. And, there is going to be no economic bailout from the same parties - see recent article in Forbes.

    This is why Poroshenko is making increasingly shrill assertions, hoping somehow that his western backers will bail him out.

    SaintPeter76 -> Scipio1, 28 August 2014 8:50pm
    All that might have worked in the Soviet era. But Russian is a capitalist country reliant on trading with the Europe and the world. The EU and USA will slowly ramp up the sanctions and slowly but surely Russia will fall back in a very long, very cold rescission, the kind that citizens tire of and over throw their governments. There will only be one looser in this, Putin. The people of Russia will ultimately see him for what he is, a thug.
    abba2002 -> SaintPeter76, 28 August 2014 8:59pm
    Russians are used to survive on scraps if needed - unlike the rest of the "civilized" world.
    And motivation and national sentiment now are such that if, God forbid, some hot heads prevail, Russia will go to the end.

    After which the EU might be no more...

    abba2002, 28 August 2014 8:40pm
    I just love when the "Nobel Peace Prize" laureate Mr. Obama is accusing Russia of its "not 21st century, but 19th century behavior" in regards to its national interests. How about the demand to Afghanistan to give up Ben Laden, or else? It's not even 19th - more like 16th century: "Give me the princess, or I burn down the castle".

    Which they effectively did...

    Truthertom, 28 August 2014 8:40pm
    Listen to Kiev demand the West comes to their aid as if they had negotiated and not tried to crush by brutal aggression. Russia has been patient long enough and should get involved to defend their people against the neo nazis. For too long the West has got away with their hypocritical posturing.
    George1000cy, 28 August 2014 8:43pm
    Hahahaha! This article and some comments are really childish, ignorant and arrogant.

    What's wrong with Russia helping Russians defend against the attackers from the west???

    Are those "militants" attacking Ukrainian cities, killing people, bombing and destroying???

    Who is the attacker in Ukraine???

    2+2=4. Lets show some respect for the truth.

    Jeffkopite -> George1000cy, 28 August 2014 8:51pm
    The first casualty of conflict is the truth
    Nikolla, 28 August 2014 8:45pm
    Kiev does not have the moral ground to accuse even a criminal from the street…
    NikoNista -> hoover2001, 28 August 2014 9:45pm
    In Croatia currently more people supports Ukraine.There are three reasons for that: media covers only western side of the story, as in all ex-communist countries we have old habit of being suspicous towards Russia and last one is Russia is an old ally of Serbia, which sadly is more then enough to pronounce them guilty by default.

    However as things unfold and cover stories drop one by one, we are changing position towards pro-Russia. Similar to western media with comments sections, where we can see other side of story, situation is quite different.

    There is much more support for Russian side. Only difference between your and our media is pro-Russian commentators are not called Putin-bots, but Serbian supporters.

    PyotrGrozny, 28 August 2014 8:48pm
    You could argue that if a 'free sovereign country' is murdering its own people that there is a moral even Christian duty to intervene to save life. The West has invoked that argument often enough.
    Anne26 28 August 2014 8:48pm
    Exactly what are they doing to stop ISIS aggression? They are slaughtering thousands but it seems no one cares. Yet with Russia they are wanting WW111.
    lids Anne26 28 August 2014 8:54pm
    CIA has a very long history working with, training up and supplying with military hardware, sunni jihadists. Undeniable. Just saying.......
    Exodus20 28 August 2014 8:49pm
    I was convinced of Iraq WMD after Colin Powell made his Iraq presentation at the United Nations in 2003. He supported his claims with pictures ...

    I don't know what those satellite images are showing but I now I trust not an iota of the hidden agenda and ulterior motives. 99.9999% of us have neither the expertise nor the resources to truly verify any claims nor what's hidden. We have been told too many lies, after lies, after lies, stitched up after stitched up in domestic politics and and warmongering. It is all just another mix of arrogance, greed, hypocrisy, and more and worse.

    kennyboy -> Exodus20, 28 August 2014 9:29pm
    The problem for we in Britain is that, as you say, they are just grey blobs to me and you. We need expert independent analysis, but where is that to be found? If such a mythical thing existed and reported that these are combine harvesters or somesutch, we would not get to hear that from our media. They would just leave the general population with the impression that the evidence was indisputable.

    We are all pawns in the great power games and our little lives and deaths mean not a hill of beans to the people who really matter.

    suimreH, 28 August 2014 8:49pm
    UN: Russia asks Ukraine where are the Air Traffic Control tapes from M17 and then asks US why it has both advisers in Kiev and mercenaries from private contractors in the fighting.

    Most countries give neutral response to Ukraine.

    ColinJones2014 -> suimreH, 28 August 2014 8:52pm
    Ukraine's Security Service Has Confiscated Air Traffic Control Recordings With Malaysian Jet
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-18/ukraines-security-service-has-confiscated-air-traffic-control-recordings-malaysian-j
    NikoNista -> suimreH, 28 August 2014 9:21pm
    I wonder if any western media reported about confiscating tapes, or even better disussed it?
    unaszplodrmann, 28 August 2014 8:50pm
    Still the question remains, when is Merkel going to step up to the plate and distinguish Germany from the USA.

    She knows the score, and the US has even screwed her over personally, yet she still plays along. Why? Something to do with the small matter of where Germany's gold reserves are held, or perhaps more to the point, where they are not held?

    abba2002 -> unaszplodrmann, 28 August 2014 9:10pm
    Besides, its Germany who is going to pay for Ukraine to survive - there is noone else.

    That baffles me too for the last 5 months...

    NikoNista -> unaszplodrmann, 28 August 2014 9:17pm
    It is an excellent question. She is trying to antagonize Russia, while
    gas is Germany's weakness, and any disruption could harm their economy. I think there is little doubt that would happen with EU if German economy sinks even a little.
    Beckow, 28 August 2014 8:54pm
    This is was avoidable if the West (=NATO) had any interest in a compromise. Ukraine is divided - close to half of the population are either Russians, Russian-speakers, or culturally Russian. In the east and south they are an absolute majority - in Donetsk close to 80-90%.

    How do you not take that into account? How did a new - post-coup, post-Maidan, post-whatever - government in Kiev decided to just call the opposition "terrorists" and start to bomb and kill them? US who helped them come to power in February should have advised them to finf an accomodation with the Russian speaking parts of Ukraine, offer federation, autonomy, coalition in Kiev, early and immediate elections - whatever was needed to keep the peace and Ukraine from blowing up. US personally selected Yatsenyuk as PM - listen to Nuland's tape - they were in charge. So the fact that Kiev has pursued a war on its own people was a US decision.

    Now the sh..t has hit the fan. Russia has made it clear that they will not stand aside as Russian-speaking citizens of Ukraine are massacred. How far do you want to take it?

    Looking at Putin he does like a guy who wouldn't mind going down in history as the guy who ended it all. So just scream and shout, lie and mislead, see where that will take us.

    Mobysick, 28 August 2014 8:55pm
    Invasion? Spinvasion
    Ernest Jacques, 28 August 2014 9:00pm
    So the EU armchair generals are going to impose more sanctions because the civil war that they and Americans and the Ukrainian regime instigated is now hotting up. Where were the cries of foul and disgust when innocent protesters were burned to death by Kiev fascist thugs and when women and children are being targeted and killed daily. The silence from these seekers after truth and justice and defenders of western values is deafening.

    Oh! And the people who will pay the price for these sanctions (as always) and any further military escalation and blood-shed won't be these same armchair generals but the working people of the EU who they are supposed to represent, rather than that of big money, the Oligarchs and multi-national corporations.

    federalreservesystem, 28 August 2014 9:01pm
    The Guardian here is my advice to you: open Wikipedia-type Russian nuclear arsenal, and then read it. Then may, just may be you will get the idea how it will look in reality.
    Tatzhit Mihailovich, 28 August 2014 9:02pm
    Meanwhile, NATO's proof only that Russia is even doing anything they are saying seems to be bad-quality publicly available imagery of rebels using artillery.

    The "proof" itself is that the separatists are using artillery => it's hard to use => therefore it has to be Russian regular troops. Are they even aware that USSR and Ukraine had mandatory army service, and that most able-bodied men older than 19 would have some sort of military specialization?

    Heck, this is a video of Mozgovoi's unit conducting an exemplary artillery strike on a Ukrainian checkpoint. Mozgovoi wasn't a soldier. He's a goddam poet and singer. And his men are all highly motivated volunteers, so they learn quick - there were videos of them training to to use the light missile launchers.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyaimboeqRg&list=UULpcwqpYPkzqzjgp9_ovpTw

    Compare and contrast to the Ukrainian men shelling - poor sods were conscripted off the street:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf30ZsGhi4I&index=3&list=UULpcwqpYPkzqzjgp9_ovpTw

    Second "proof" in that NATO brief is even better, that some of the Russian cannons at the border are pointed toward Ukraine. Where else should they be pointed, towards Moscow?

    WearyofthisSht, 28 August 2014 9:03pm
    Analysis from the Eurasia Group today:

    "The Ukrainian government has been in an impossible position, they gambled, and they've lost," Bremmer said. "Poroshenko now needs a cease-fire so that he can try to restart negotiations, the terms of which will effectively mean freezing the conflict and ceding significant pieces of Ukrainian territory to the separatists. That's politically perilous for him and risks counterdemonstrations against his government in Kiev. All the while his economy will be falling apart, with very limited support from the West."

    "But there's no other way out."

    Not unless you can get the West to join the war against Russia, that is.
    That's why Yatse and Porky are screaming that Ukraine must be admitted as NATO's special friend immediately!

    Reptile Spit, 28 August 2014 9:04pm
    Ah pictures remind of WMDs getting transported by Sadam Hussain, Nato and US bombed Iraq after that allegations which resulted in the death of more than million innocents Iraqis. It also resulted in Tony Blair to because middle east peace envoy.

    Donald Rumsfeld was showing us pictures then, some journalists definitely feel privileged to take the job and beat drums for war. Manipulation and distortion of information is guaranteed

    pavicf, 28 August 2014 9:06pm
    Dudes, let's all admit that the valiant Ukrs have been killing hundreds of Russian soldiers and destroying their super-stealthy armor columns for months. In which case there would be no need to panic over the past days "invasion", nor to suddenly call up urgent UNSC, US cabinet and NATO meetings. The Ukrs can handle it easily, we've been led to believe. Why the panic?
    Markus Wall, 28 August 2014 9:08pm
    Currency war...financial war...proxy war...what's next?
    syntaxin, 28 August 2014 9:08pm
    LUGANSK: AFTER Ukranian jets shelling the city
    http://discussionist.com/101449213
    ColdPenguin, 28 August 2014 9:11pm

    When the Guardian saw a Russian armoured column cross the border two weeks ago,

    Strange "The Guardian" who saw it couldn't even get a selfie with it in the background on their iPhone.

    wombatman -> ColdPenguin, 28 August 2014 9:22pm
    Their phone batteries ran out, apparently.

    And the same with the Ukrainians who said they attacked it and destroyed some of it. And by the time they had gone away and charged up their phone and camera batteries, the destroyed tanks had gone. Seems some scrap metal dealers had come back and taken the remains away.

    Also another time when they destroyed some other russian army vehicles, their batteries again had run down, and when they came back the road cleaners had been. Just really bad luck.

    WearyofthisSht, 28 August 2014 9:12pm
    In 2008, Presidential hopeful Barack Obama told Paris Match he wanted direct talks with countries like Iran and Syria.

    "We won't be able to stabilise the region if we don't talk to our enemies," Mr Obama said.

    This must be a different person that President Barack Obama, right?

    I mean, does anyone here actually think that Obama recommended that Poroshenko or Yatseniuk TALK TO THEIR ENEMIES in DONBASS??

    Trudi Goater -> WearyofthisSht, 28 August 2014 9:17pm
    No he told old brat Biden to tell them not to talk, just bomb and kill other Ukrainians
    Andy2222, 28 August 2014 9:13pm
    Ms. Psaki said that the thousands of Ukrainians who have been leaving to Russia during the last months are not refugees but they go to visit their grandmothers.

    I think that Russians are expected to go to visit their offsprings in Ukraine, too.

    ValuePlus, 28 August 2014 9:17pm
    The last time Ukraine tried to get Russia involved in a war was when, with the cooperation of The Guardian and The Telegraph, they claimed "Russian troops destroyed". Of course, it was a lie (the worrying thing is that 2 British papers were participants in this conspiracy) which didn't work as there was, obviously, no evidence. And so, they are trying it again. Why is Ukraine so desperate for war?
    fitzgmd -> ValuePlus, 28 August 2014 9:19pm
    Ukraine isn't - the Washington puppet-masters are - rabidly so.
    UncleSam404 -> ValuePlus, 28 August 2014 9:28pm
    This Guardian article made a reference to this Russian column that was destroyed and apparently many funerals followed.
    ColdPenguin -> DeadKennedy, 28 August 2014 9:30pm
    FACTBOX -The effect of Russia sanctions on European companies
    Wed, Aug 13 2014

    Aug 13 (Reuters) - Russia has issued a ban on European Union food imports, retaliating against Western sanctions over Moscow's actions in Ukraine.
    Here are some recent comments and announcements showing the impact of the sanctions on European companies.

    * German utility E.ON posted a 12 percent drop in first-half core profit, hit by a weakening economy in Russia, and said it was concerned about the impact of the Ukraine crisis on its most important foreign market.

    * Finnish department store chain Stockmann said the operating environment in Russia was unstable, as it reported a smaller-than-expected second-quarter operating profit, pulled lower by a decline in the Russian rouble.

    * Consumer goods group Henkel forecast a tough six months ahead, with political turmoil in Russia and volatile exchange rates hurting sales.

    * Russia has returned some cheese shipments to Italy and cancelled pear exports from Modena under a food import ban, an agriculture group said.

    * Austria's Raiffeisen Bank International (RBI) played down the potential impact of sanctions on its business in Russia, where it is the 10th-largest lender.

    * Norwegian salmon prices were seen falling due to Russia's food sanctions, forcing farmers to scramble for new markets at a time when prices are already under pressure.

    * The CEO of Finland's Nokian Tyres said he expected sales volume in Russia to be about flat in the third quarter compared to a year earlier
    * With foreign lending to Russia frozen, some European banks are trying to refinance existing loans to big companies there in order to protect their business.

    * A drop in Russia's car market quickened in July. Sales slid 23 percent, the latest sign that Russians are increasingly worried about the impact of the Ukraine crisis.

    * Lufthansa, Air France-KLM and Finnair would be hit hardest by a potential closure of airspace over Siberia, flight tracking data showed.

    * Rheinmetall slashed its 2014 operating profit target after the German government withdrew its approval for a contract with Russia and the group shifted some of its automotive business to a joint venture.

    * Daimler has seen growth weaken in Russia's auto market due to the Ukraine crisis, Chief Executive Dieter Zetsche told Germany's Bild am Sonntag newspaper.

    * Part-nationalised British lender Royal Bank of Scotland said it had placed restrictions on its lending in Russia following developments in Ukraine.

    * Adidas cut its profit target for this year and scrapped it for next year, blaming a plunge in sales at its golf business and exposure to a weak Russian market.

    * The head of Russia's second-largest oil producer Lukoil said sanctions would force the company to reduce its investments due to limited access to funds.

    * Russian mobile phone operator Megafon said it converted foreign currency deposits to roubles and Hong Kong dollars to protect against any more sanctions.

    * German retailer Metro AG said conditions were still not right to list a stake in its Russian cash-and-carry business.
    * French oil major Total said it had stopped buying shares in Russia's Novatek when a Malaysian airliner was shot down over Ukraine, but it was still too early to gauge the impact of sanctions.

    * BP posted a big rise in second-quarter profit but warned more sanctions on Russia could harm business there and its ties to state oil company Rosneft.

    * More than 25,000 jobs are at risk in Germany following the latest sanctions, the German Committee on Eastern European Economic Relations said. "Further damage is looming for the European and especially the German export industry. More than 25,000 jobs are in danger in Germany alone," it said.

    joeblow9999, 28 August 2014 9:25pm
    Amazing...............

    Obama just got done talking about the "illegitimate rebels" in the Ukraine and proceeds to talk about "power sharing" with Sunni's in Iraq and Syria. "Inclusive government"??? Why on earth would a Shia or Kurdish Iraqi ever want to "share" much of anything with Sunni's who actually invited ISIS into their country and is actively taking part in exterminating and depopulating others?

    Sorry, but I've come to the conclusion that if the President isn't fighting Arab Sunni radicalism............. he surely isn't fighting much of anything. Not a word about Saudi and Qatar funding of zealots.

    Disclaimer - I voted for this man. Please proceed to throw tomatoes and rotten lettuce at me immediately.

    chevres, 28 August 2014 9:25pm
    Arguably the tribal default mode is that we westerners are the goodies and they (in this case Russia) are the badies . But if that's the case why is it us who's inventing bogus wars to our own ends . And why is it us who allow our citizens travel to Israel to help slaughter thousands of civilians as well as supply munitions to do it. The only reason for western intervention in Ukraine is to access a multitude of geopolitical and economic advantages . However bad we like to think our perceived enemy is, recent history shows that our own nations unjust self indulgent agressions overseas positions us so morally low that there is no sound footing from which to preach . Shameful.
    Babeouf, 28 August 2014 9:28pm
    Yes has the second wave of invading self propelled artillery arrived. This is a first no army in thee twentieth century ever led an invasion with self propelled artillery. Those Ruskies are damned tricky. And having made a breach in the enemies front they didn't reinforce it. Must be a new tactic. Yes they obviously want the invasion to last as long as possible. And they made no allowance for the Glorious Ukrainian army running away claiming that Mars had attacked. And now World powers (US, UK and any European ambassador who did scoot offf fast enough at the approach of Uncle Sam with his lick spittle) have convened a meeting to discuss the situation in Ukraine. Was it last week or the week before that Russian representatives went through exactly the same worthless charade over the siege of Donetsk? Another filthy Ruskie trick to mock this great monument, or epitaph, to the West the UN. And we now know thanks ( to that great Ukraine humanitarian Jesusyoubelievethatjerk ) Commie Russkies from Mars have invaded Ukraine to steal their women to repopulate the Red planet and steal all of Ukraine's precious bodily fluids. And unless the West(US and ts old lickspittles)i stand firm the world tomorrow will look as it does today.
    Oquendo, 28 August 2014 9:28pm
    Basically our european leadership seems to prefer another massacre in Eastern Ukraine at he hands of people dedicated to bombing their own citizens. The same way it has created the conditions for massive civillian casualties in Lybia, Iraq, Siria. Today another massive genocide at the hands of a the so called Islamic State in all western TV's. Any country we touch ends up covered in blood.
    Do we expect people to stand iddle while we support the killers?
    May be there is too much power in inadequate hands.
    SexyWhiskers, 28 August 2014 9:42pm
    Just because Parasha'n Ko began screeching "Russia invaded" doesn't mean it's true. The opposite is, more likely. To all our western leaders it should be obvious by now. Remember him promising to crash the rebellion in a matter of hours?... The creature is a liar and a fool. And if he, Parasha, expects NATO and US to declare the war on Putin now that he raised the stink about "invasion", he doesn't get the game. The bottom line, Ukraine shouldn't have bothered about that "revolution" in the first place. They bothered still, and now facing consequences.
    Palash Ranjan Das, 28 August 2014 9:46pm
    This is the hypocrisy of USA and NATO, they end up supporting Al-Nusra in Syrian leading to the advent of of ISIS calling it a dissent calling of people against the Syrian leader, But will crush dissent of people in Donetsk and elsewhere just because Russia is on the other side of the fence. Classic example of duality when they uses two stands on two fronts, one where they supports even militants, another where they don't even want to talk about the right of Russian speaking people in Ukrain.
    ID9793630 -> Bakerpembury, 28 August 2014 9:58pm
    America is hoping that sanctions against Russia will bankrupt Europe...clip wings of the upstart Euro economies... sow chaos and confusion and wreck up the place in Russia's borderlands...more death and destruction in middle east. Hopes that it can make good money on the sidelines to shore up their own economy...and if the Yankee dollar is going down, all y'all is going down too.
    Mouflon41, 28 August 2014 9:50pm
    If NATO and Ukraine govt are right about there being approx 1000+ Russian soldiers in Ukraine then Ukraine might as well sue for peace now and come to the table. If their 60,000 regular army plus x amount of national guard, right sector, football ultras etc cant beat this number of Russians then they should turn it in.

    What it does show is that the "west" has been living in denial about this whole conflict, the rebels have about 20,000 approx men, thats still fighting against 3-1 Ukrainians, 80% locals, the rebels have more support on the ground, are doing more to feed the civilians, are being supplied with info and local knowledge from villagers, its all there on numerous videos and reports.

    Also this conflict was meant to be over about 2 weeks ago, Donetsk and Lugansk surrounded, cut off, Strelkov missing and presumed dead, Borodai et al like rats deserting a sinking ship that poached article from Radio Free Europe said didnt it? Well that was a load of bollocks wasnt it? Anybody who looked at multiple sources could see the rebels holding on, surrounding and cutting off Ukrainians. This major rebel counter offensive the media were about 4 days behind on, people were putting it on the boards on Sunday and anticipating it earlier.

    Its great news the rebels are pushing out from Donetsk and Lugansk, this should soon give the people there some respite from the Ukrainian bombs.

    Audiea, 28 August 2014 9:57pm
    However much the west wants to box in President Putin, the central flaw in such an idea is ignoring history and political reality especially in Russia. Ukraine wants to be a modern state and a prosperous one as well, but turning to the west, which spent twenty years snickering at Russia's post Soviet efforts earns nothing. Russia will not permit Ukraine becoming a NATO member or a US style consumer state. The United States will never permit Mexico to become a truly independent political or consumer state, we will stop any effort. The tragedy here is a long ugly season of anger and prejudice on both sides. Fighting a proxy war in Ukraine is a farce and tragedy for everyone.
    Zogz, 28 August 2014 9:57pm
    After what the US and NATO have done in Syrian, Iraq and Libya who are they to chastise Russia? What principles do they represent? Opportunists hell bent on keeping the world perpetually on the point of war.
    TheRelegator, 28 August 2014 10:00pm
    Reading through the raft of comments, it seems every world leader is twirling an imaginary moustache and gearing up for war. Hopefully there are a least a few leaders who can learn from history and recognise that the world does not want war.
    ...
    Yes I know this will attract (OBAMA DOES! and or PUTIN DOES!)
    Bakerpembury -> TheRelegator, 28 August 2014 10:13pm
    You are so right. We wonder how highly civilised countries went to war in 1914. Hopefully we aren't going to find out.
    28 August 2014 10:02pm
    http://cluborlov.blogspot.nl/2014/08/propaganda-and-lack-thereof.html

    The government in Kiev has instituted three mobilizations, one after the other, sending into battle boys and old men (maximum draft age is now 60). Those who refuse to be drafted were at first threatened with incarceration, but this no longer works, so they are now threatened with murder. The unofficial "fee" for getting out of being drafted is several thousand dollars.

    Bakerpembury -> egidius , 28 August 2014 10:11pm
    Failed police states become gangster kingdoms and that's the way Ukraine is going it seems with so many pissed off armed Rightwingers.
    suimreH, 28 August 2014 10:05pm
    The FACTS are there for all to see: Poroshenko and his bloodthirsty dogs in the Rada are, quite simply, WAR CRIMINALS.

    These MADMEN are guilty of laying siege to whole towns and cities, starving them of water and food and refusing to allow humanitarian corridors for civilians to escape.

    WHY? BECAUSE THEY WOULDN'T ALLOW EAST UKRAINIANS THE RIGHT TO VOTE ON THEIR FUTURE.

    These CRAZED sycophants, in Kiev, are guilty of MURDERING hundreds, if not thousands of innocent civilians, through their three month non-stop, indiscriminate, untargeted use of bombs, rockets, phosphorous, Grad and ballistic missiles.

    WHY? BECAUSE THEY WOULDN'T ALLOW EAST UKRAINIANS THE RIGHT TO VOTE ON THEIR FUTURE.

    These stupid, arrogant, unintelligent people, are guilty of DECIMATING their own country's economy in the pursuit of some illusion they will become a land of overflowing with milk and honey if they join Europe. Furthermore, they act WITHOUT majority support of the Ukraine nation them. There has been NO referendum to join Europe!

    WHY? BECAUSE THEY WOULDN'T ALLOW EAST UKRAINIANS THE RIGHT TO VOTE ON THEIR FUTURE.

    These EVIL people are guilty of lying, obfuscating, misrepresenting, dis-informing and conning their own people in pusuit of their own individual, personal and selfish interests.

    WHY? BECAUSE THEY WOULDN'T ALLOW EAST UKRAINIANS THE RIGHT TO VOTE ON THEIR FUTURE.

    Poroshenko and the shithouses in the Rada, quite frankly, don't deserve any respect from any reasonable person.

    Ambricourt, 28 August 2014 10:12pm
    A few weeks ago Guardian announced Mr Cameron was arranging transfer of "Soviet-era" weaponry from Poland to Ukraine. Although the action was presumably intended to kill Eastern Ukrainians, the reportorial tone was as cold, stiff and unemotional as the beloved Prime Minister himself.

    Over the past twenty-four hours a brilliant strategic move by the anti-Kiev dissidents has encircled the Ukrainian army as well as the oligarchs' private armies.

    Unless NATO rapidly delivers contemporary weaponry to Kiev, the triumphant dissidents can soon begin their march on Kharkov to carve Eastern Ukraine into the new country of Novorossia. The land was theirs before the Ukrainian state was invented. And by now the Novorossians have endured enough corrupt Ukrainian administration legitimized by interventionist foreign powers.

    Jpmoz999 -> Ambricourt, 28 August 2014 10:16pm
    I am a world traveller and former academic now retired to read/study/write in a remote community. Dismayed at the misuse of imperial power by the US and its allies, I have lost my lifelong optimism about the global future. But I still believe that if imperial greed and archaic militarism were abandoned, the planet's peoples remain capable of harmonious inter-development.

    ...Not according to that line of shit you just posted.

    phconnell, 28 August 2014 10:12pm
    This is all rather analogous to WWI with East Ukraine as Serbia, Ukraine as Austria, the West as Germany, and Russia as Russia of course.

    In both cases it was Russian action that triggered a wider war - perhaps Putin is pushing this war just for the fun of it - to see how a frightened West will cower behind their cappuccinos and wave endless, meaningless words instead of flags.

    Along with the interminable immigration all this says something about Europe which will probably define its fate in the next 100 years - and they do not notice it - always on the phone, or twitter or facebook, text-fallen, or just asleep in a life with no horizons any more.

    irgun777 -> phconnell, 28 August 2014 10:36pm
    The WWI according Wiki started because of unresolved territorial
    disputes between Russia and Austria.

    There is something deeper than that. Russia will never permit
    an aggressive foreign power at her door suppressing the rights
    of other ethnic Russians. Kissinger and Brzezinski understood this
    well and advised Ukraine to become an independent federation not a part of NATO

    The Maidan coup was not enough for Kiev. The ultra nationalist introduced a bill to for a ban of the Russian language, schools and institutions.
    This was to much for the ethnic Russians in Eastt Ukraine to tolerate

    irgun777, 28 August 2014 10:14pm
    The Chocolate oligarch's military campaign melted as well as his election
    promises for peace and talks with the separatists.
    He badly needed a Russian invasion as a scapegoat for his failure.
    Anette Mor, 28 August 2014 10:18pm
    These people storming military headquarters and demanding president impeachment in Ukraine. Do they demand peace, stop the war, recover economy? No. They demand better support for troops. Did they complain with the same rage about kids and thier mums being killed in the streets parks and shops of Donbas? No. They had no issue with these people dying. Byt they have issue with much smaller amount of trained mature military men being at risk of surrender. I do not belive these people in the streets of Kiev are driven by legitimate grievances which need to be addressed through democratic representation. I think they are blood thuthty mob lost heads in agressive rage. Strong power and words of reason are required to show them thier place and lead them to better life. Democracy would just reflect thier madness. Leadership with vision, strength, love and wisdom is required. I hope somewhere at the core of this pity nation such qualities still exist and will lead them out of current misery of minds and hearts.
    LibertarianLeftist, 28 August 2014 10:20pm

    Why are we remaining silent? Have we become cowards? Are we scared of even thinking now?

    Surely words we can direct to ourselves.

    Luhansk has been without water and electricity for three weeks; Ukraine has the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion for shock-trooping; and indiscriminate fire kills civilians in built-up areas.

    Every bit of water-testing, olive-branching, and conditional backing-down by the Russians has been smacked away. And still we are the victims, always the victims.

    I like nothing about Putin other than that, under his leadership, Russia will not be bullied by our war-mongering politicians-just as I respect Hizballah for standing up to the Israelis. What a total disaster this has turned out to be, and what an utterly predictable one.

    And don't forget, people: "Fuck the EU". This is the true nature of our alliance with the Americans. Will it ever be time to cool relations with Washington and go our own way, maybe spend some time to devoting ourselves to friendship-building with our Russian neighbours? The Ukrainian economy is on its knees, the Russian one is suffering, and so are our own… while the Americans are sitting pretty!

    If a tiny country with "pervasive" poverty like Ecuador can stand up to the White House, what exactly is stopping us?

    RedEyedOverlord, 28 August 2014 10:27pm
    The Ukrainian army overstretched itself around Donetsk and got its most effective tank and air forces completely encircled. Total defeat in the Donetsk area is only a matter of time now and there will be nothing left to chase battles in Luhansk.
    Its a bit too late to save anything now, a bankrupt Ukraine cannot afford to fight an avoidable war on IMF loans. It seems like desperate face saving to start telling us that Russian troops have suddenly started fighting alongside the rebels, except someone was lying to us at the very beginning of the conflict when the charge was originally made. Everyone expects Russia (or any country in its place) would get involved with the affairs of an unstable neighbour, so tell another story.

    No amount of sanctions is going to save the day either. So, can anyone say why Ukraine got itself into such a foolish bind? Now that they are defeated, nobody is going to lift a finger to help them. It would have been much easier from the very beginning to stick to the agreement reached at Geneva for more regional autonomy. Against common sense, Ukraine's leaders chose to crush dissenting voices with military might instead. Now they are getting defeated, what next?

    Ukraine is the story of heartless corrupt oligarchs wading through blood to amass billions. Its not about democracy or wanting to join Europe, it never was. It is all about lucrative gas contracts and overnight wealth, an attitude that says "damn the people, they can die by the thousand, who cares?"

    suimreH, 28 August 2014 10:37pm
    The only answer to this crisis is for the Kiev Government to talk directly to the Resistance Army in Donetsk and Luhansk and agree to some form of self-determination.

    The people in Donetsk and Luhansk are clearly behind the Resistance Army and as each bomb drops that support strengthens more.

    The only other way is for a perpetual civil war.

    This is all the fault of Kiev, its Rada and Poroshenko.

    abba2002 -> suimreH, 28 August 2014 10:46pm
    I don't think they'd agree to any "self-determination" status.
    After all this blood spilled.
    Especially while they are on the winning streak.
    SachinJain, 28 August 2014 10:37pm
    message to the US:

    Western European is not interested in fighting the Russians over bits of Ukraine where the local population is pro-Russian..

    self determination anyone ?

    fkUSofA, 28 August 2014 10:38pm
    With all the US/NATO/CIA/NSA spying apparatus, spies/operatives on the ground, etc., where is the evidence that Russia is invading Ukraine?? The best US/NATO/CIA/NSA can do is propagate the lies and disinformation coming out of Kiev...

    Kiev is in deep trouble, it's falling apart:
    1. Dissent from citizens -
    'Kiev, rise up!' Protesters demand ouster of Ukrainian president, defense minister (http://rt.com/news/183396-kiev-poroshenko-military-protest/)
    2. Military deserting Kiev -
    Ukraine president blames military failure on deserting commanders (http://rt.com/news/183280-ukraine-mothers-soldier-abandoned/

    SomersetApples, 28 August 2014 10:39pm
    If there had been an invasion by Russia it would have been over by now, and Porky would be gone.

    Porky Poroschenko is a man without a government. He has already dissolved his government and his position is so tenuous that he doesn't dare leave the country. He says that he cannot travel to Turkey because of an imaginary invasion by Russia. He is trying to invent new explanations for not travelling and meeting with Turkey and even if he did meet with Turkey he has nothing to offer. He knows that he would be replaced in a coup should he travel that far outside the country.

    There are protests underway in Maidan Square and outside the ministry of defence in Kiev. These are an escalation of the anti-draft riots in various towns all over western Ukraine. Draftees are escaping to Russia and the people in Western Ukraine are loosing their taste for war. They want an end to the conflict and they want the more pressing social and economic issues to be addressed. As it stands now they have nothing to look forward to but a long cold winter.

    Porky's draft age son has been reported safely ensconced in London and Billionaire Proschenko might be planning for a safe escape.

    Eastern Ukraine remains defiant and the Kiev mercenaries that have been paid for by the West are proving ineffective. The only option that NATO might consider would be for an all out invasion by NATO forces. However Merkel does not appear too receptive for a Barbarossa II and I am sure Mr. Putin has considered that possibility and has a clever trap ready for them should they try.

    From the Minsk meeting, Poroschenko came away looking the worried man, and Putin the smiling Cheshire Cat.

    zelazny, 28 August 2014 10:41pm
    Ukraine will destroy the allegiance between Europe and the USA, especially between Germany and the USA.

    German businesses and individuals have taken huge financial hits from the craziness in Ukraine and the sanctions against Russia.

    And American financial policies have hurt individual Germans for many years. Unlike Americans, Germans save money and buy gold, two things that US monetary policy has harmed by keeping interest rates impossibly low and by restricting the price of gold.

    Last year, Germany demanded an audit of its gold held by the USA. The US refused, but the Germans decided to keep the gold there anyway.

    Some astute analysts I have spoken with suggest that the US no longer has Germany's gold, but that Germany has kept silent on learning this in order to prevent economic chaos and much worse.

    Who knows the truth?

    But we do know this -- Germany has either the second or third largest supply of gold in the world. The Chinese have bought gold for many years and no one knows how much they have in private hands, but really a lot.

    By keeping the price of gold artificially low, the US has harmed every German and every Chinese who holds gold.

    secondiceberg, 28 August 2014 10:51pm
    When are the Guardian reporters going to let us know how many U.S. military personnel and NATO personnel are already in Kiev and region? That should be much easier to investigate and prove.
    Taku2, 28 August 2014 10:53pm
    The Ukraine is Russia's Syria, and Syria is America's and the EU's Ukraine..

    The Americans, Russians and EU are fighting vicious wars by proxy, and have moved away, probably irreversibly so, from cooperating in building a better world. It is difficult not to hold the Americans and EU as having most of the responsibility for taking the world back into the dark age of the Cold War. This they have done by disrespecting Russia and making her their enemy, when she could have been a partner in building a better world.

    The world is fucked; unless their leaders can come to their senses,

    db1973, 28 August 2014 11:10pm
    "The prime minister said: "I'm extremely concerned by mounting evidence that Russian troops have made large-scale incursions into south-eastern Ukraine, completely disregarding the sovereignty of a neighbour."

    Oh, the irony.

    suimreH, 28 August 2014 11:14pm
    President of Russia Vladimir Putin addressed Novorossiya militia

    August 29, 2014, 01:10

    Full text of address

    "It is clear the militia has achieved a major success in intercepting Kiev's military operation, which represents a grave danger to the population of Donbass and which has already led to the loss of many lives among peaceful residents".

    "As a result of the militia's actions, a large number of Ukrainian service members who did not participate in the military operation of their own volition but while following orders have been surrounded".

    "I call on the militia groups to open a humanitarian corridor for Ukrainian service members who have been surrounded, so as to avoid any needless loss of life, giving them the opportunity to leave the combat area unimpeded and reunite with their families, to return them to their mothers, wives and children, and to quickly provide medical assistance to those who were injured in the course of the military operation".

    "For its part, the Russian side is ready and willing to provide humanitarian aid to the people of Donbass, who have been affected by this humanitarian catastrophe".

    "I once again call on the Ukrainian authorities to immediately stop military actions, cease fire, sit down at the negotiating table with Donbass representatives and resolve all the accumulated problems exclusively via peaceful means".

    SOURCE

    SomersetApples, 28 August 2014 11:15pm
    This is not about a US war on European soil but a sanctions war against Russia that does more damage to Western Europe than to Russia and that has little effect on the US. If all goes to plan the US will be weakening two big economic rivals and keeping its hegemony for the petrol dollar.

    Now if only Western Europe will be so gullible as to ignore the effect this is having on their economies and follow the plan.

    Woodenarrow123 -> Joe Elm, 29 August 2014 1:10am
    This was a US manufactured crisis.

    Our media has failed us miserably - Have you heard of the Nuland taped conversation?

    Nuland is Victoria Nuland and she was taped speaking with the US ambassador to the Ukraine - She clearly supports the leaders of the coup and actually appears to decide who should take power after the coup. This happened in reality.

    This taped conversation was widely reported by the BBC and Sky News because of Nuland's F*** the EU remark but the finer details of it were never dealt with by our media.

    The best way out of this now is to insist on a diplomatic solution - That is a Federal Ukraine where there is autonomous regions and the people can elect their own leaders.

    That would make sense - But this was a US led adventure in military expansionism on Russia borders.

    It was always likely to lead to a re-start the Cold War.

    jaruzelski, 28 August 2014 11:40pm
    Porosenko = schizophrenic.
    In a matter of hours:
    "Russia invaded Ukraine."
    "Ukraine and Russia should form joint border control."
    WOW! Split personality....
    jaruzelski -> reptile0000, 28 August 2014 11:44pm
    Try RT. Always more truthful (I checked stories after several months when the truth was recognized or evidenced by whistle blowers ....illegal in the UK) than British Biased C?/p. (BBC)
    Milogrim -> reptile0000, 28 August 2014 11:47pm
    Where to start.. maybe a US-sponsored coup in Feb-2014? The one that got a democratically elected president overthrown in Russia's backyard? With nazi (yes nazi) being 1/3rd of the current illegitimate government moving to abolish Russian language and denounce Crimae Russian lease?
    twiglette, 28 August 2014 11:44pm
    The West is behaving like a spoilt child. If it can't grab the whole of Ukraine, a huge territory running beneath Moscow itself - then it will throw its toys out of the pram and cause war. How about negotiating a settlement for the Russian east instead of killing its citizens Israeli style (and then blaming Russia).
    MrSvejk, 28 August 2014 11:46pm
    the public won't fall for this propaganda again, sure there are Russians fighting with Eastern defence units, hardly surprising considering their close kinship links, but only a fool would believe that NATO weapons and tactical advisor's are not employed by the Kiev Junta to help cleanse the East of ethnic Russian Ukrainians
    Rantalot, 28 August 2014 11:49pm
    I don't believe our mainstream media anymore.
    Not since Iraq WMD's.
    There is a serious credibility issue.
    Putin and Russia have been very restrained right through this, I am inclined to trust more of what they say over my own representatives and media.
    roscoc, 28 August 2014 11:57pm
    With the greatest respect to all those on this forum who may have very valid reasons for their distaste for either the Russian or Ukrainian regimes, there is a bigger picture at play here.

    A very dangerous game indeed.
    When you focus on personalities, you lose sight of the bigger picture.

    Follow the MONEY TRAIL.

    The Oligarchs want to control all the energy reserves worldwide.

    Russia is slowing down this process and therefore needs to be weakened by being hemmed in by NATO.

    Putin is nobody's fool and will not allow that to happen. Not much choice really.

    The same is being done in the Middle East with the destabilisation of all those countries.

    ISIS being funded by ???

    Captured US Humvees and stinger missiles. Give us a break. The US does not leave their ordinance laying around.

    An excuse for NATO to intervene in Syria and Iraq.

    Same controllers, same modus operandi, same outcome.

    But what would I know? Just a little granny from Australia.

    domeus, 28 August 2014 11:57pm
    It seems that the Russian speaking people on both sides of East Ukraine/Russian border have friend-and-family ties. Hence the volunteer fighters who cross the border. Many westerners have fought with the Kiev side. It is also the case that Svoboda and other extremist rightist groups are playing a large part in the Kiev attack on the east.
    The international western community made a bad mistake in arming and financially supporting extremist elements in Syria, thereby creating ISIS. It would be foolish to repeat that mistake.
    From the beginning of the Ukraine crisis it was clear that a just solution required dialogue between the regions. A military solution is no solution. Let talks begin. It `s a sad reflection on all of us with our prejudices and biases that so many lives have been lost.
    reptile0000 -> domeus, 29 August 2014 12:06am
    To be honest none of it matters. Russia knows well what US wants from Ukraine, what role it wants Ukraine to play, to try put Russia in international world. We just have to wait and see if they can successfully isolate Russia or not. I hope it doesn't happen because it would be disastrous for international politics and world peace.
    PekkaRoivanen, 29 August 2014 12:08am
    There is something that I don΄t understand.

    According to NATO there are 1000 Russian soldiers fighting in East Ukraine. They are volunteers consisting of retired military personnel, service men on their vacation and perhaps others, too. That΄s is according to one of their leaders.

    I live in Finland. My uncles fought Ukrainians invading Finland on Raate road in winter 1939. Soviet Union had 1 million mens in arms against Finland who's population was 4 million at the time. And Finns stopped Soviet invasion despite lack of everything. Lack of arms, ammunition, Finland had 32 tanks against Soviet΄s 3500 tanks and many Finns fought in civilian cloths because there was not enough uniforms.

    That was an invasion

    Ukrainian military has more than 100 000 persons in active duty plus 1 million men in reserve and a population of more than 40 million people.

    Ukrainian president Poroshenko has "called on Ukrainians not to panic, and said the situation in the country's east was "difficult but controllable"".

    1000 Russians make Proshenko panic...

    SiberianNights, 29 August 2014 12:08am
    The EU duped Greece into economic ruin, so couldn't it also prove capable of duping the Ukraine into war-ravaged destruction, especially with a little sweetener from Uncle Sam?
    The facts remain:-
    - There is not going to be a UN resolution to stop Russia with military force.
    - Nor will there be any USA-led 'coalition of the willing' to do so.
    Before it faced the possibility of being crushed under Russia's military boot, the Ukraine was a serious contender for EU membership, for which the 'coup' was merely a transitional phase. But now that it looks like becoming a war zone, the EU will increasingly distance itself from the region and curse the dubious CIA risk-analysis data that ever made Europe take a punt on this....
    - The broken pieces of war-ravaged Yugoslavia are indeed being progressively picked up and bolted on to our re-fashioned Europe....But their war came from within....while the Ukraine's was more triggered from the outside, which, in our screwed up world, actually makes post-war charity less likely.
    CIA-EU manipulations certainly take the gamble on the chance of the up-side for themselves, but do they insure against the potential down-side for local victims?
    strannik, 29 August 2014 12:09am
    Whoever thinks war is glamorous, needs to watch these two captured Ukrainian soldiers as they are being shown the results of their actions. The pair served in the Ukrainian artillery and shot missiles into the city of Donetsk. It's a short clip but worth seeing. Start watching at 1:20.

    http://youtu.be/xCuz6q9B7OQ

    strannik, 29 August 2014 12:09am
    Whoever thinks war is glamorous, needs to watch these two captured Ukrainian soldiers as they are being shown the results of their actions. The pair served in the Ukrainian artillery and shot missiles into the city of Donetsk. It's a short clip but worth seeing. Start watching at 1:20.

    http://youtu.be/xCuz6q9B7OQ

    supnorm, 29 August 2014 12:16am
    Ukraine and NATO are getting desperate. The bad thing about telling many lies in the past is that many people won't believe you when you are telling the truth in the future
    Sarah7591Wilson -> supnorm, 29 August 2014 12:20am
    That's assuming they haven't lost the capacity for distinguishing between truth and lies and can still make themselves tell the truth from time to time. As far as the people in power in Kiev are concerned, I'm yet to catch them in the act of truth telling, but perhaps things aren't fully as morally dire as that in Washington. I think they are, but I'll be much heartened to be proven wrong.
    stevesharrison, 29 August 2014 12:20am
    The expansion of NATO (As well as the EU) into Eastern Europe has been a mistake which threatens the Peace and Prosperity of Europe on this, the Hundredth anniversary of the Great War. Regrettably, this may now be irreversible Firstly, the Eastern Europeans, who now have a veto on EU and NATO Policy have unending enmity towards Russia, especially Poland, (incidentally 'liberated from NAZI rule at the cost of Millions of Russian lives'). Prior to the fall of the Berlin Wall, the EU and NATO enjoyed a bona modus vivendi et operandi which for better or worse preserved the Peace of Europe. The Bush (Snr) and Gobochev Malta Agreements made it clear that NATO would not expand beyond the old Iron Curtain in exchange for de facto Russian withdraw. However, this has been clearly breached. Not only is NATO in Eastern Europe but in Georgia -- It is also clear that the Obama-Kerry Democratic Foreign Policy is based on reversing Republican real politic modus vivendi and has actively encouraged / sponsored with Poland especially the encirclement of Russia based on the crisis in the Ukraine: Why? Secondly, again clearly, with a 'detonte' 'Peaceful co-existence' with Russia, the EU (including the Euro) was on the way not only to economic recovery but in the direction of realising the dream of Mendes France and Ardeneur: Schmidt and de Gaulle Kohl and Mitterrand of a strong European Union: Strong EURO Currency to rival the Dollar and the US Economy. Those who despise the EU, notably the USA (who have successfully negotiated a Trade Agreement which benefits the USA (Protectionist Economy) at the expense of the Free Trade ethos of the EU AND the UK Right especially the Tory Right, who want to see the EU and the dream of EU Peace and prosperity fail; implode; regress. They are behind the 'convenient' Ukraine Crisis - not to destabilise the Ukraine but permanently destablise EU and EU Economic Progress and Recovery. How can the EU rescue this dire and foreboding situation? Firstly, as with the Fabius/ Steinmier conference with Putin and Poreshenko a Peaceful Solution must be found for the Ukraine from Europe NOT the USA or NATO. Secondly, the EU and Russia must re-build our Economic and Political Relationship: The EU - Eurasian Economic Union relationship should be fostered AND the South Stream Energy initiative, halted under USA pressure, must be revived to substantially aid EU Economic Prosperity. Thirdly and above all, NATO must be re-evaluated/ re-appraised. NATO, with its unelected Secretary-General Ramassun: NATO which acts with impunity and without any Parliamentary Consultation or Public Accountability has embroiled the UK in the Balkans and Eastern Europe as we were 100 years ago. Poreshenko's attendance at Newport (not Cardiff) is a signal that Obama with a UK Poodle wants a new Cold War. France and especially Germany must rescue Europe AND revive the European Dream of Peace and Prosperity - Independent of the USA and NATO - let us remember the true cost of War: Death; Destruction and moral Desolation: With a Successful Europe, Peaceful and Prosperity we spare our people of the horrors of War
    Michael Bluth, 29 August 2014 12:25am
    CIA: America has no objection to physical elimination of Putin

    --------

    "..."Simply put, we should make clear to the Russian business executives and oligarchs who are the target of Western sanctions that Putin is their problem, not ours. These people may lack the spark of political genius or the high-minded patriotism that drove our country's Founding Fathers -- but they aren't stupid.

    It won't be long before a bunch of them get together for a quiet conversation -- perhaps in a Moscow board room, more likely on a yacht anchored off the Cote d'Azur -- to, um, decide what might be best for Russia's future.

    Since subtlety doesn't work with Russians, the president and his European counterparts should also make absolutely clear that we have no interest whatever in how these people solve their Putin problem.

    If they can talk good old Vladimir into leaving the Kremlin with full military honors and a 21-gun salute -- that would be fine with us. If Putin is too too stubborn to acknowledge that his career is over, and the only way to get him out of the Kremlin is feet-first, with a bullet hole in the back of his head -- that would also be okay with us...."

    --Herbert E. Meyer, Special Assistant to the Director of Central Intelligence and Vice Chairman of the CIA's National Intelligence Council under Reagan administration--

    ---------

    So, if it ever comes to that, we'll know where to look for the likely instigators. Also 10/10 for patronizing racism.

    God bless America.

    psygone -> Dennis Levin, 29 August 2014 12:31am
    Here's the latest status from the Dutch Safety Board...........

    officially in charge of the International Investigation of the downing of Malaysia Flight MH-17.

    enjoy
    ----------

    ^_^

    Anette Mor -> steveips, 29 August 2014 12:45am
    ? Shrlling of russian villages by jkranian artilery is daily experience of russian people living on the border. Two russians killed in iwn homes. Several injured. OScE was shot at when inspecting russian border. By ukraine. Never heart anything about russian shooting to Ukraine. Other than some allgations with never any evidence.
    ThatsRight, 29 August 2014 12:38am
    The satellite pictures that the western media presented so far (including from the Guardian) are inconclusive as there are no coordinates etc. visible.
    The Western war and aggression machinery has made false accusations before (see the MH – 17 shoot down, which was immediately blamed first onto the Russians and then the Ukrainian rebels. As it tuned out no credible evidence was ever presented and it has become clear that it wasn't the Russian nor the Ukrainian Rebels – you can figure out the rest for yourself).

    So here we are again, unsubstantiated claims made by the western war hawks.
    But besides all of that who the heck does the Western Crazy's think they are:
    USA the largest war machine on earth, raging illegal and criminal wars in the middle east (invasion in Iraq, killing more than 500,000 innocent lives, 15 plus year war crimes in Afghanistan, reckless interference with sovereign nation of Syria and else where in the world.
    The west incl. Germany, England, USA Europe etc. have absolutely no moral or any other right to point fingers at Russia and Putin.
    You cannot be a war mongerer and a war criminal and cry foul when you claim=m someone else has done something similar, - that's just not how it works.

    Besides all of that it is clear that the New World Order is trying with all might to expand its totalitarian grip it has on large part of the world.
    All we in the west have to offer is destruction, total control, and poverty.
    We have nothing to go by.
    Our financial systems are at the verge of bankruptcy (which we should put the US through anyway asap). In Europe during the world cup the financial banksters have agreed on a bail in by which the public would loos its entire savings in order to save the fail euro.
    The IMF and World Bank are nothing but a criminal and loading organizations and by the means of austerity they bring nothing but poverty to large part of European citizens.
    In order to save their pathetic corrupt and finished monetary system Europe is desperately trying to expand to the East. Hence the support for the putsch in Kiev earlier this year whereas the elected president was toppled and a fascist right wing regime has been put in place and now finally the ultimate puppet Poroshenko is the president without a government trying to be the western wip.
    What a disgrace!
    This nonsense has to stop.
    Mr. Putin I applaud you for your courage and wisdom, don't cave in to the western crimes you know there will never be an end to it.

    suimreH, 29 August 2014 12:43am
    Some posters appear to be deluded by western propaganda about the wishes of Ukraine people.

    There has never been a majority of Ukrainians in favour of closer ties to Europe. This is a myth.

    On the eve of the Maidan protests in November 2013, just 37% wanted clloser ties with Europe, 36% with Russia and the rest undecided.

    Zhubajie, 29 August 2014 12:44am
    Maybe the US shouldn't've over-thrown the elected government of the Ukraine, installed a bunch of Nazis. People who don't want to be killed by Nazis have every reason to revolt.

    Mullah13, 29 August 2014 12:48am
    Its geopolitics. There are no "good" and no "bad" guys here, there's only power. Putin is lying, Merkel is lying, Obama is lying. British newspapers are making stuff up as they go, as are Arab TV stations. Only few, probably not more than a couple hundred people actually know what is going on there and why it is going on and they won't be talking to The Guardian or Der Spiegel any time soon. In the meantime, enjoy the warmongering and the propaganda and make yourself comfortable in your preferred world view. It won't change during this "crisis" and there will be a suitable mindset ready for you when it's over.

    On a happier note, I'll be going to bed now with a nice bottle of white whine. Cheers!

    DaveTh, 29 August 2014 12:55am
    This is some kind of Sick Joke. The US complaining of a superpower invading another country is so Ironic it makes me roll about the floor laughing. Meanwhile Cameron's rhetoric is also so ridiculous - someone in someone else's country is disgusting apparently and we need sanctions - unless of course it is Israel in Palestine and then its totally ok, we will manipulate the media and send you arms to kill the natives - because Israel they have a right to defend themselves. Under the camo logic Russia are totally in their right to defend themselves against Ukraine while they are invading it - nice one Cameron . Are you going to sell arms to Putin so he can defend himself in Ukraine ?
    Billyswagg, 29 August 2014 12:56am
    The capitalist warmongers have invested so much money trying to steal Ukraine for the spoils they won't just give up now. They can't afford another war, at least not while they're still targeting Muslims, so all they've got is their hysterical media shouting: "Crisis! Invasion! Sanctions!" Suck it up. Like you had to with China and Vietnam.
    danubemonster, 29 August 2014 12:56am
    The West really needs to recognize that the Ukraine is in Russia's sphere of influence. The EU could never accommodate the country - it's having enough trouble with the corrupt little kleptocracies on its Eastern fringe, where democracy and the rule of law is just a veneer. By messing around with Russia's sphere of influence, the West has forced Russia to take action, in particular with their liberation of the Crimea. By not backing down, the West may be forcing Russia to liberate other parts of the Ukraine. Of course if in the unlikely circumstances that the Ukraine did join the EU the biggest losers might be countries like Slovakia, Poland and the Czech Republic, who would I think see Western companies shifting production east, to take advantage of cheap Ukrainian labour.
    Black Cat, 29 August 2014 1:15am
    Very interesting bits of historical perspective on Ukraine from a pro-Russian POV.

    http://slavyangrad.org/2014/08/28/ukrainian-association-with-eu-and-the-mutiny-of-the-euro-integrators-150314/

    ".. The separation of Ukraine, from Russia, is a long-time geopolitical project of the West – Germans, Britons, Americans. We often quote the words of Zbignew Brzezinski: "deprived of the reunion with Ukraine, Russia is not destined to reclaim the status of a great power". "Long Zbig" is wrong: Russia can reclaim that status without Ukraine, but it will be more difficult and take longer. The thing is, Brzezinski is not original; he repeats the words of a German General Paul Rohrbach, who stated, in the beginning of the XX century: "to diminish the threat of Russia to Europe, and especially to Germany, you must completely remove Ukrainian Russia from Muscovy Russia".

    Please note that to a German General both – Ukraine and Muscovy – are Russia; and he speaks of creating an internal, Russian, split. He evokes the ideas of the German politicians of the last third of the XIX century, principally Otto Eduard Leopold von Bismarck-Schφnhausen, who not only insisted on the necessity of such a split, but defined the means..."

    Well worth reading the whole thing

    bobby_fisher, 29 August 2014 1:34am
    More than 50,000 U.S.-Backed Troops Are Fighting in Ukraine's Civil War.....Why?

    http://rinf.com/alt-news/editorials/50000-u-s-backed-troops-fighting-ukraines-civil-war/

    bobby_fisher -> bobby_fisher, 29 August 2014 1:36am
    Here are some results of this effort:

    http://rinf.com/alt-news/editorials/obama-definitely-caused-malaysian-airliner-downed/

    Nickel07, 29 August 2014 1:41am
    To all the people in charge of areal surveillance and other assorted issues which at the moment are apparently technically challenged.
    I was just looking in my humble iPad at a Google Earth view of Mauripol, I could see even park benches.
    I therefore suggest you lot buy into google technology, thus allowing us to see proper intelligence pics... I understands do understand that having misplaced 2.3 trillion dollars the day before 9/11 must have put some strain in your finances thus unfeeling you to develope proper satellite imagery similar to Google's
    Truthsandlies, 29 August 2014 1:44am
    I wish our government stopped supporting the U.S geopolitical ambitions to control the world, these nutters commit terrorism in other countries by claiming they are fighting to protect us. Who is lying now.
    secondiceberg, 29 August 2014 1:49am
    The Guardian keeps deleting my posts that include verified quotations by highly placed American military and other officials regarding why they fought the war in Iraq. If you want to see what it is that they don't want you to see, you can Google the following article, which was published on line in the U.S. by reputable sources.


    Why the war in Iraq was fought for Big Oil
    By Antonia Juhasz,

    krackoff, 29 August 2014 2:01am
    Poor Ukraine, they must be wondering what they've got themselves mixed up in, as it looks like there is a push to turn it into a land locked country and this is a conclusion that I have reached based on the fact that whoever controls the coastal areas, also controls the Black Sea oil and gas fields and of course the ports along those coastlines, then whoever has the rights to the coastlines has the claims to the territorial water and any further new finds in those waters.
    Shell pulled out earlier this year as it could not cut a deal with the Ukraine due to the political unrest in the country, maybe this was because some one else was making a move to get there hands on the black gold.
    The same interested party has also been sticking its nose in to other countries affairs that have had recent gas and oil finds off there coasts, mainly in the eastern Med and southern Med off the coast of North Africa, now haven't we had a lot of trouble in those areas in recent times and who's been behind it all.
    Its starting to look like the Ukraine has been well and truly stitched up, I think those cookies may well have been poisoned. .
    Ted958, 29 August 2014 2:03am
    If the Russian speaking population is being attacked by the Ukrainian military and the EU and the US have done absolutely nothing to protect them, do you think people in Russia will simply do nothing?
    Regardless of what President Putin tells them, there will be Russians who, quite rightly will not stand idly while their Ukrainian cousins are killed.
    The West are happy to dictate to President Putin, warning him not to intervene, while blatantly ignoring the violent actions of the Ukrainian government against their OWN population. People in Russia no longer trust the West to act honestly and the West has only themselves to blame if things go pear-shaped.
    StevenJ1957, 29 August 2014 2:03am
    I support anyone who fights fascism in Europe.The UK and America did in 1939-45.....it's just not in their interests on this occasion.
    ThatsRight -> StevenJ1957, 29 August 2014 2:13am
    The British are stirring the pot behind the scenes as usual and are trying hard not to get sucked into their own criminal b.s
    They are the perpetrators, together with the US. Whereas the US is the poodle that does all the dirty work.
    Desperately trying to implement the will of empire to all of the world.
    How pathetic!
    jackpasternack, 29 August 2014 2:07am
    How suddenly the US can provide satellite photos of Russian tank convoys .
    Yet a great reluctance to release satellite photos of the attack on MH 17.
    Which the Russians know that they have as it was directly over the Airliner at the precise moment of the attack .
    How can we possibly believe anything the West says or omits in the drag to an oligarch all war.
    bobby_fisher, 29 August 2014 2:24am
    25.08.2014
    Ukrie's Tank Brigade captured near Lugansk:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oprpG8y-MQ

    At 1:41 "Todays our guests from Chernigov Tank Brigade are telling their stories".

    Informative.

    Anette Mor, 29 August 2014 2:30am
    It is painful to watch beople seriously thinking there are right and wrong party in this. How about advancing into acceptance that both Ukraine and Donbass got skme right on thier side. But neither can get thier wayvwithout hurting another. Just as in real life when we both want the same dress but there is only ine left in the shop. Oncecwsy is to fight and get what you want by force. That choice first made by Kiev. But then rebels who initially resorted to referendum, realised if the do not increase level of army casualties to a noticeable level their families will be bombed out to instinction. They are inside and subjected to violence escalation spiral. It is hard for them to stop and get a helicopter view. BUT. We can. Self determination is important and they should not be denied that basic right. Sovereign borders are inportant and they should nit be violated. Yet the settlement is in the middle. And it is about better future for these kids who are now without food water electricity and schooling. What is best for them? Stop shooting them first. Sit down and talk. Main question - what each party is and is not prepated to give up and how it could work for each party to banch on less critical points and keep the biggest once thier way. I would say. Kiev does not want Donbass go away to russua, donbass want full scale language and own schooling and trade with Russia. Both these demands are comparible!!! They could be met without a war!!! Just sit and talk. And others. Sopt taking sides and demandjng more blood. For the benefits of these kids who are hiding now in cellers waiting for us all to grow up.
    alicewtfi46, 29 August 2014 2:32am
    At least now, the indiscriminate shelling of civilians in Eastern Ukraine by the fascist thugs from Kiev will probably stop.

    ........it's encouraging that Vladimir Putin has requested that the separatists open a humanitarian corridor for encircled Ukrainian troops to leave the battlefield.

    Would Kiev have done the same ? - I doubt it.

    bobby_fisher, 29 August 2014 2:33am
    Very pissed off Ukri National guardsmen calling Kiev:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO6HHIv4JKI

    Warning: Mature language.

    fkUSofA, 29 August 2014 2:40am
    Here's a New York Times piece, "Ukraine Reports Russian Invasion on a New Front" (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/28/world/europe/ukraine-russia-novoazovsk-crimea.html?_r=0) Guess who's one of the authors of the article... Michael R. Gordon, the infamous Gordon (and Judith Miller) of the "Iraq WMD" inaccurate reporting, oops!!

    And of course, UN's Rassmussen. Who said:
    "Iraq has WMDs. It is not something we think, it is something we know".
    11 years ago!!

    Lies, disinformation, propaganda...

    Putin is not invading Ukraine, are there any Russian soldiers in western, central Ukraine, if anything, supporting Russians in eastern Ukraine,... With UN calling eastern Ukraine a humanitarian crisis, which country actually sent in humanitarian aid?? Sure wasn't UN/US/UK/EU/NATO... But they sure was fast to act in Iraq, air drops of aid and bombs... At least with Putin, he only trucked aid, not bombs!!

    FulanoZutano, 29 August 2014 2:46am
    Stupid fat choclogarch Poro ate too many Nuland cookies. He should have grabbed the chance to negotiate with the separatists. Now he is going to lose even more land.

    Besides, who is going to bail out corrupt Ukraine especially in the middle of a recession. EU govts will be looking over their shoulders at opinion polls which will frown on severe measures that restrict business with Russia.

    What an effin' mess but the worst part is that it was all avoidable. Another brilliant victory for the neocons.

    ,

    [Aug 28, 2014] "Zero Proof" - The "Russian Invasion" Of Ukraine

    An interesting point about coordinated MH17-style "Russian invasion" media campaign in which both Guardian and NYT take part... When in reality it is defeat and disintegration of Ukrainian army under blows of confederate militia that is taking place. Quote from comments: "MSM actors on the ground, or off it, pundits, are in the grip of a kind of 'group-think' where any news or fabrications that support some power have been, in the past, provoked, encouraged and endorsed. They are in the grip of a kind of permanent collective hysteria, which is naturally lucrative / favorable for them."
    Aug 28, 2014 | moonofalabama.org

    The authors of this NYT piece, Ukraine Reports Russian Invasion on a New Front, are not really convincing when presenting these reports by the Ukrainian government as truthful:

    The latest incursion, which Ukraine's military said included five armored personnel carriers, was at least the third movement of troops and weapons from Russia across the southeast part of the border this week, further blunting the momentum Ukrainian forces have made in weakening the insurgents in their redoubts of Donetsk and Luhansk farther north. Evidence of a possible turn was seen in the panicky retreat of Ukrainian soldiers on Tuesday from a force they said had come over the Russian border.
    ...
    Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for the Ukrainian military in Kiev, said the Russian armored column entered the town of Amvrosiyivka, south of Donetsk, expanding what Western and Ukrainian officials have described as one of the main fronts in a multipronged counteroffensive directed by Russia.

    The "momentum" the Ukrainian troops had was never as big as the Ukrainian government had claimed. A few motorized brigades ran through open territory held by few insurgents and when coming to a halt at their primary target were immediately cut off and surrounded. Their moral is bad, their equipment old, ammunition is low and the entire aim of their campaign is dubious. Now even a few weak counterattacks, the "counteroffensive", have them on the run.

    While the piece repeats the Ukrainian claim that Russian material, including ammunition, passed over the border the third picture shows some 20+ wooden boxes of RPGs and the caption says:

    "A villager opened a box of rocket-propelled grenades left by the Ukrainian Army in Starobecheve, southeast of Donetsk. Pro-Russia rebels took over the town after the military withdrew."

    Obviously the fleeing Ukrainian troops are leaving a lot of goodies behind.

    Then there is this:

    The separatists have asserted that they are using captured Ukrainian equipment. But American officials say they are confident that the artillery in the Krasnodon area of Ukraine is Russia's since Ukrainian forces have not penetrated that deeply into that separatist-controlled region. American officials also say the separatists have no experience in using such weaponry.

    That bold part is of course utter bullshit. The Donetsk miners and volunteers from Russia all have had regular military service. They surely will be able to handle Grad systems, little evolved from World War II, and other artillery.

    The United States has photographs that show the Russian artillery moved into Ukraine, American officials say. One photo dated last Thursday, shown to a New York Times reporter, shows Russian military units moving self-propelled artillery into Ukraine. Another photo, dated Saturday, shows the artillery in firing positions in Ukraine.

    "Shown to one NYT reporter" who likely can not differentiate a Grad system from a pipe organ is hardly any proof. Why doesn't the U.S. publish the picture?

    On the highway in Novoazovsk on Tuesday, Sgt. Ihor Sharapov, a soldier with the Ukrainian border patrol unit, said he had seen tanks drive across the border, although they were marked with flags of the Donetsk People's Republic. Others suggested the flags were a ruse.

    "I tell you they are Russians, but this is what proof I have," said Sgt. Aleksei Panko, holding up his thumb and index finger to form a zero.

    Zero proof - indeed. I have absolutely no doubt that Russian volunteers are fighting on the insurgency side. I have no doubt that some ammunition is coming from Russia. But judging from pictures of equipment and ammunition the insurgents use nearly all of it seems to be the same Soviet era stuff the Ukrainian army is using. I have yet to see and big updated Russian equipment in their hands. The big Russian invasion the Ukrainian government claims is very unlikely to have happened.

    Update

    This is a quite amazing "information operation" without doubt of U.S. origin.

    Consider: The Ukrainian President talks about Russian affiliated insurgents in east-Ukraine and Reuters and others distribute this as "invasion". After all major news-entities repeated the "invasion" claim and the public damage is done they simply take it back.

    Consider this from Tagesschau, the highest rated German TV news show:

    Translation:

    On #Ukraine there was a translation error by the agency Reuters: According to the correction Poroshenko did not talk of an invasion.

    So there was an "invasion", distributed by major news agencies, which then turns out to have been a translation error or an intentional Poroshenko 'screw up'.

    Notice that one author of the NYT piece above is Michael Gordon, who, together with Judith Miller, wrote sensational reports about proof of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. The current head of NATO who is promoting war against Russia, Fogh-of-war Rassmussen, said 11 years ago: "Iraq has WMDs. It is not something we think, it is something we know".

    These folks and the western news agencies that promoted the WMD in Iraq claims are now claiming a Russian "invasion" in Ukraine only to retract it when the damage is done. Warmongers. All of them.

    okie farmer

    from Business Insider:

    "Geopolitical expert Ian Bremmer, the president of Eurasia Group, told Business Insider in an email that Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko is now backed into a corner. And Bremmer said he'll likely seek a quick ceasefire solution to prevent his country's economy from completely collapsing.

    The Ukrainian government has been in an impossible position, they gambled, and they've lost," Bremmer said. "Poroshenko now needs a ceasefire so that he can try to restart negotiations, the terms of which will effectively mean freezing the conflict and ceding significant pieces of Ukrainian territory to the separatists. That's politically perilous for him and risks counterdemonstrations against his government in kiev. All the while his economy will be falling apart, with very limited support from the West.

    "But there's no other way out."

    Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-russia-at-war-invasion-2014-8#ixzz3Bh9J4qxg

    okie farmer | Aug 28, 2014 10:09:19 AM | 12

    from same site:
    The new front opened in Amvrosiivka and Starobeshevo opens a pathway to Crimea, which Russia annexed with special forces troops in March.

    The fear is that Russia is attempting to create a land link between Russia and the strategic peninsula.

    Russian troops are leading a separatist counteroffensive in the east, bringing in tanks and using artillery from inside Ukrainian territory.

    A Russian-backed rebel leader said that at least 3,000 to 4,000 Russian troops were fighting inside Ukraine.

    "Current servicemen are also fighting in our ranks, as they came to us to struggle for our freedom instead of their vacations," prime minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) Alexander Zakharchenko told Russian media. "This is characteristic only for Russians."

    Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/ukrainian-president-russian-troops-are-advancing-in-ukraine-2014-8#ixzz3BhCKLjZT

    Noirette | Aug 28, 2014 11:33:42 AM | 24

    Desperation from Kiev Coupists!

    There are at least 3 ways of seeing the false, mocked-up, reports of a Russian invasion, not mutually exclusive:

    1) Kiev is screaming for support from the US and/or EU - cum - NATO. They don't realise that they are low man-on-the-pole and that mimicking US actions (false flags, terror ops, spin, hype, outright lies, etc.) is no guarantee of success, the US + vassal-EU can change stance on a dime. (Certain.)

    2) The US wants that *ultimate* WW, and it doesn't really matter what or how it is justified, there just needs to be crazed confused strife, blustering, extreme alarm, etc. (Most doubtful.)

    3) MSM actors on the ground, or off it, pundits, are in the grip of a kind of 'group-think' where any news or fabrications that support some power have been, in the past, provoked, encouraged and endorsed. They are in the grip of a kind of permanent collective hysteria, which is naturally lucrative / favorable for them. Similar to reports on the sex-lives of Stars, pedophilia scandals, NSA spying, etc. (Obvious)

    [Aug 27, 2014] Russia accused of new military incursions into Ukrainian territory by Shaun Walker

    No normal person will now believe reporting of Shaun Walker without verification with third parties, but here he was strangely reserved in his lies. But still he performing his usual role of presstitute: help to start a new "RussiaInvadedUkraine" campaign. Russia is silent about the incident so we have no second party to check details on the incident provided by Ukrainian side. Still there are telling signs that this event looks like a new iteration of MH17 provocation: for example the simultaneous media attack in major MSM with a closely coordinated coverage of the incident and memo: "RussiaInvadedUkraine". Good job Shaun...
    An interesting question that is avoided in the article is where those paratroopers were actually captured. If they were captured/hijacked from Russia territory and then beaten into submission to provide the necessary stories that's a casus belli for Russia. Soldiers did not have loaded weapons, which is a very strange way to travel in Ukrainian territory. Russia does not want to invade Ukraine and that position represent a trap for provications. Looks like confessions were extracted under duress. From comments: "Duress I would have thought, else why would serving military be making political statements? As ex-service myself I would never do that unless coerced - not my business to do that (I am under a service oath) and that applies to soldiers of any country."
    Another very suspicious detail is perfect timing of capture. Just before Minsk meeting. There was also a documented attempt by Poroshenko to play this card, which failed. That doubles the suspicion about perfect timing being not accidental.
    Guardian article has elements of a well recognizable scenario of disinformation campaign somewhat similar to MH17 scenario. Now the offensive of DND militia (which achieved some successes the recent days) can be directly attributed to the Russian army. Posts of some Ukrainian servicemen in social networks which report that they are fighting a tough battle with the Russian units now will be treated as solid facts, supported by the story of captured paratroopers and posted video with their confessions (actually very strange video, that gave impression they are speaking a prewritten script, see above).
    And then, of cause we have have feverish activity of liberal journalists in search of secret burials in Pskov. This is called "stuffing of agenda". Take a break and look at all those elements as a whole and the hypothesis that this is another large and well-planned propaganda operation looks more plausible. And then we will see classic propaganda pin-pong which previously was demonstrate with Shaun Walker reporting Russian military column crossing into Ukraine: Ukrainian press quotes messages soldiers of his army in social networks, as true and immutable information. Then Western diplomats jump into action quoting Ukrainian press. Then their statements immediately are used in the press and social networks making previous statement more valid. That ping-pong can have several iterations which can start with a single post in social network, but now became a huge snow ball of lies and misinformation.
    The Guardian

    Disquiet in Russia over the country's ambiguous role is beginning to grow, as more circumstantial evidence of military activity emerges. An editorial in the respected Russian daily Vedomosti on Wednesday said Russian officials had a responsibility to explain whether or not the country was at war.

    "Is Russia fighting in Ukraine, and if it is, on what basis? If it's not, then who has been buried in these fresh graves, and who is being questioned by Ukrainian security services?"

    observerone -> AlanTyndall , 27 August 2014 4:48pm
    Vedomosti - is a joint venture between Dow Jones, the Financial Times and Sanoma, the publishers of The Moscow Times. Somehow i think noone suffered. Do your homework before posting.

    monkie -> Metronome151, 27 August 2014 4:05pm

    And Russia was doing so well after managing one single admittance yesterday and now reverting to denial mode.

    do you not think that the russian army would be at the gates of kiev by now if it hard really invaded, that it would not be sending in a truck here and a truck there if it was serious about invading?

    of course russia is denying, just the same as the US is denying its involvement, will the US admit that PMC mercenaries are in the ukraine? will it admit to providing intelligence to the ukrainian regime? are the CIA or SEAL or other units operating in the ukraine? will we ever know?

    what many of us in the west do not seem to wish to face up to is the fact that people in russia seem genuinely shocked and angry about the odessa fire which killed many people, they are genuinely angry at cities being shelled by the kiev regime, they are not ignoring the facts about neo-fascists in the kiev government, or the neo-fascist battalions the way we do.

    30% or so of parts of ukraine are native russian speakers, its on their border, by all accounts the number of volunteers heading that way is massive, and yes, russia is doing nothing to stop them because the russian public appears to demand they are being helped.

    if people had a little more empathy and looked beyond their own prejudices they would realise that if the tables were turned we would react the same?

    VoiceFromNowhere, 27 August 2014 3:12pm
    The US-concocted Anti-Russian Ukraine Project is coming to an end because the Ukrainian army's defeat is a matter of weeks as the antifascist militia have arranged three deadly pockets for the Kiev junta's army (two near Donetsk and one near Luhansk) and are already at the Azov Sea near Mariupol. They're advancing pretty fast.

    Good luck to Antifascist Resistance militia! Guys, all progressive mankind is with you these days.

    adognow -> Canadianidol, 27 August 2014 3:33pm
    It's funny how the Americans and some Canadians (no doubt the worshipers of the neo-con criminal Harper) are poking the Russian bear from the safety of the other side of the Atlantic.

    If you want to confront the Russians, I suggest that you pick up a rifle and head off to Ukraine. We don't want sanctions or a cold war with Russia - it benefits nobody but the military corporations who profit in blood.

    Besides, I think Putin must be trembling to hear the Canadians waving their fists against Russia. Putin probably needs to ask his aides if Canada is a country or the 51st state of the USA (we in the UK would be the 52nd).

    edwardrice -> adognow, 27 August 2014 3:41pm
    A lot of Ukrainian Nazis went to Canada after the war. Some still believe they are fighting the Soviets and so on.
    monkie, 27 August 2014 3:15pm

    Putin's words ignore the fact that the Ukraine has lost control of a section of the border and believes Russian arms and fighters are crossing freely to aid the rebels. There are also increasing fears that regular Russian army units are active in the east.

    and the western press is ignoring the fact that even the leaders of the national guard are screaming at their own government that they are losing the battle.

    of course people are blaming russian incursions as a excuse for the apparant incompetence of the ukrainian army and the volunteers of the national guard.
    it looks like the ukrainians overreached and have had various battalions encircled and destroyed.

    even though the rebels freely admit to having support from russia, including volunteers there is still no credible evidence of any military equipment in the region that is not also used by the ukrainian army.

    there is a forum of ex-military and military enthusiasts, pro US but with some eastern european members who are poring over the images from the conflict and they cant find any evidence of exclusively Russian material in the area.

    monkie -> monkie, 27 August 2014 3:18pm

    and anyone interested in the rebel/russia view on the situation could do worse than read this english language translation of what appears to be a popular blog, its is blatantly pro-rebel but its claims are no more ridicules than what we are seeing from the ukrainian side in our press and by using ones own filter to judge one can get a interesting and perhaps more balanced view of the situation.

    fitzgmd, 27 August 2014 3:16pm

    However, given the circumstances, it was not possible to tell whether the men were speaking freely or under duress.

    Duress I would have thought, else why would serving military be making political statements?

    As ex-service myself I would never do that unless coerced - not my business to do that (I am under a service oath) and that applies to soldiers of any country.

    If not, then you are a deserter and therefore not serving as regular military anymore as these people claim.

    leglehid -> fitzgmd, 27 August 2014 3:35pm
    The question is whether they were telling the truth or not.
    fitzgmd -> leglehid, 27 August 2014 4:04pm
    if they were telling the truth then they are technically violators of their service oath and deserters.

    If they are under duress then they are obviously saying what their captors are telling them to say, and this is a clear violation of the Geneva Convention re the treatment of POWs.

    Strange how there is outrage over the parade in Donetsk as a Geneva violation but no outrage over the treatment of these violations, eh?

    And even if Russian troops are there - so what??

    Is that a surprise to anyone considering what is happening there??

    What about the Ukrainian Neo-Nazi death squad troops - who are OPENLY marching under Nazi banners such as a resurrected group of the 79th Galicia division of the SS???

    Armed Nazi military units in Europe - for the first time since WW2 - who are targeting civilians - and that doesn't bother the Kiev apologists???

    No....when it comes to the atrocities and abominations the Western-backed Kiev junta is engaging in we only see the usual double-standards and the usual silence or lies.

    Ted McIntire , 27 August 2014 3:20pm
    Powerful forces from many directions are intentionally pushing Ukraine to become a basket case like Moldova or Cuba in order to plunder its resources (including human resources) at a low cost.

    More conflicts over fragmented National Security objectives of various entities is not the answer. Joint commitments from all entities in support of Human Security objectives presents a path forward. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_security#UNDP.27s_1994_definition

    edwardrice -> Joe Elm , 27 August 2014 3:53pm
    Overthrowing an elected government in a coup and then screaming for help when it all goes wrong is - well, what to say.

    Ukraine is basket case, economically down the drain and it's all the fault of nobody except the dysfunctional idiots that called themselves the opposition.

    They could have waited for elections and taken power democratically.

    I mean Poroshenko just called early elections!

    That's what the EU brokered deal, signed by the opposition and Yanukovych, agreed to back in Feb, the day before the coup!

    Absolute fecking morons and you now want ''the west'' to come to the rescue!

    John Christian Lψnningdal, 27 August 2014 3:29pm
    It's about time that the Ukranians borrow some sophisticated drone systems so they can at least take out these Russian tanks as they pass the border. I really don't understand yet that Nato, EU or USA haven't allowed them access to advanced military equipment. How long shall we sit and look at Russia playing this silly game with Ukraine sovereignty? And are we sure how far Putin is willing to take this?

    Perhaps they can get some specially trained "volunteer" marines from USA without any insignia on their uniforms? It's about time we started playing the same game as Putin.

    evenuglierthanyou -> John Christian Lψnningdal, 27 August 2014 3:33pm

    I really don't understand yet that Nato, EU or USA haven't allowed them access to advanced military equipment.

    Probably because a fair chunk of the Ukrainian armed forces are the Right Sektor nutters who incinerated 40 innocent people in Odessa and who have now been rewarded for their mass murder by being paid, armed and sent out to kill more people.
    yermelai, 27 August 2014 3:29pm
    'The fate of the EU and the world...'

    We all need a deal soon, not only Ukraine and Russia. But in fact, I wonder if it is not Kiev that is in least need of deal soon?

    If we first take a look at the human characters of both Yatsenyuk and Poroshenko we may find that they are both not necessarily acting in the best interests of their 'country'. Yatsenyuk's first instinct is the 'all or nothing' one. When, last December he was offered the prime minister's job and a-brought-forward-electoral-calendar, he turned it down - no doubt his decision was supported by foreign power - perhaps smelling blood. Yanukovitch fled, and Yatsenyuk's first reflex as newly installed 'interim' prime minister was to demote the national status of the Russian language, thus instantly alienating a large part of Ukrainian society that any democrat, or human being, pretending to have his 'country' in his best interests would have been unable to justify. No doubt Yatsenyuk, the banker, he felt strong enough to act with a dictator's manner.

    Poroshenko, is an oligarch, a billionaire who served in key posts in the previous two 'corrupt' gov'ts. He pledged decentralisation when campaigning for president and has since proceeded to pound eastern regions of Ukraine with the national army, regardless of the human costs. Again, a clear distatste for anybody deviating from the Poroshenk/Yatsenyuk plan for the territories of Ukraine. Poroshenko is also the owner of KANAL 5, Ukraine's most watched TV channel. What would we say if Rupert Murdoch was prime minister of the UK or president of the USA? Yet we hear that only Yanukovitch was 'corrupt' despite Ukraine being an oligarchy which really means a conglomoration of economic kingdom's hiding behind a sovereign country facade.

    Over the last nine months these two figures, who have acted illegaly, have drawn the EU into blind support for them by dangling a potential new member under the EU's nose with the added pleasure of 'getting one over' on Putin. While Russia has been drawn into a position where it is forced to defend its various vital interests.

    If Poroshenko and Yatsenyuk were to accept anything other than total power over a 'sovereign' Ukraine they would go down in history as the actors who finally destroyed Ukraine and worse for their persons they would most likely face the popular and legal wrath of their countrymen.

    My bet is that Poroshenko and Yatsenyuk will budge on nothing, and the worse the economic situation becomes for Ukrainians the more they will blame Russia - as if it is possible to blame Russia anymore than they all ready do. And the bigger the bill Europe will be inevitably expected to pick up.

    We are being taken for idiots by these two and the power that is behind them.

    Jeremn -> yermelai 27 August 2014 4:09pm
    That was Yats's only qualification - he was anti-Russian. That's why he was the chosen one (by Nuland, at least).
    Andy2222 27 August 2014 3:29pm
    The border is not marked there - it is just a field. No demarcation.

    The soldiers did not have loaded weapons.

    hdc hadeze -> Andy2222 27 August 2014 3:32pm
    what if the Mexican Army tried to cross into Texas? What if the Canadian Army tried to drive into Vermont?
    Andy2222 -> hdc hadeze 27 August 2014 3:36pm
    Army? We speak about 10 men here, not even a team of special troops.
    VoiceFromNowhere 27 August 2014 3:31pm
    Concerning these poor soldiers in the pictures, these are not VDV fatigues (VDV are Russian paratroopers and Kiev claims they are VDV). Here is a picture of the VDV fatigues (any VDV soldier wears the undershirt called telniashka). Therefore, it's just a commonplace Kiev fake. Or they're just ordinary volunteers. The look in their eyes is not absolutely that of the VDV either.
    Black Cat -> EmergingMaster, 27 August 2014 4:13pm
    The west is already sending non-lethal aid to the Ukr army and already has NATO advisors and various mercenaries working with the militias. It's valid to ask how much further the west wants to go or should go. Is a full-on NATO war a sensible option when this is really a local matter to be settled in the end only by negotiation?

    It's noteworthy that the western media has been fairly muted on the recent and only provable Russian incursion. Compare the rhetoric about that with the complete hysteria that greeted previous and entirely speculative incursions. That suggests perhaps some western uncertainty atm about how far they really want to push this. I suspect it could go either way

    Doug Salzmann , 27 August 2014 3:37pm

    "We did not discuss this matter substantively," said Putin. "Frankly speaking, we cannot discuss any conditions for a ceasefire or possible agreements between Kiev, Donetsk and Luhansk. This is not our business; it is a domestic matter of Ukraine itself."

    Self-evidently correct.

    Putin's words ignore the fact that the Ukraine has lost control of a section of the border and believes Russian arms and fighters are crossing freely to aid the rebels.

    Why would either of those change the really central fact: that Kiev needs to deal with the people of Donbass directly? This is feeble crypto-editorializing, Shaun.

    There are also increasing fears that regular Russian army units are active in the east.

    There are? Where are these fears? Do they have an independent existence or does some one one them? If the latter, please cite.

    umut gezer, 27 August 2014 3:43pm
    I would not be surprised to hear that the black boxes of malaysian plane have no information about the crash. Then Russia has every right to invade entire Europe.
    Mistaron -> umut gezer , 27 August 2014 5:57pm
    MH17 was a false flag which seems to be doomed to slip down the memory hole. Results of the ''investigation'' are now to be classified and the Western media has succeeded in it's accusations by treating Russia's guilt as fact although we have still not been shown any concrete evidence. Still, as far as most of the public is concerned, Russia dunnit!
    Babeouf, 27 August 2014 3:47pm
    So new Russian 'incursion' new Russian EU sanctions, no. What then. Well the EU now seems to be saying 'let Ukraine and Russia sort it out'. And unsurprisingly Putin says 'let the Rebels and Kyiv sort it out.' No peace talks no Western threats just the regime in Kyiv squaring up to the regime in Moscow. A battle to be decided by the relative strengths of the combatants. Quote 'An editorial in the respected Russian daily Vedomosti ' A paper jointly owned by Dow Jones, the Financial Times and Sanoma, the publishers of The Moscow Times. All these publications are full of Neo Liberal nonsense . And are respected by those on the make, those on the take and the intellectually challenged. God what a rag the Guardian has become.
    Black Cat, 27 August 2014 3:57pm
    The US/NATO plan was to get the new Ukie president to wage an all-out and ferocious war in the east under a near-total news blackout, but to get it done and dusted so fast that it would be a fait accompli before anyone could be held to account.

    It hasn't worked. The victory is coming too slow if it's coming at all. Word from the ground in the east is of wholesale Ukie withdrawals and ground gained by the rebels. Stalemate at best and winter coming. The blitzkrieg plan is failing, but there doesn't seem to be a back up plan.

    Europe is starting to back off from wholesale support for Kiev and for sanctions. Increasingly Poro is revealed as a puppet of very narrow and specific interest groups that care nothing for either Ukraine or Europe. Increasingly the choice is either serious peace talks or a war between NATO and Russia in Ukraine.

    Is Russia in Ukraine? Probably. Just as the US would be in Mexico under similar circs. Is the US also there? Yes, definitely, NATO advisors are openly working with Kiev. The proxy war is already happening. If we want to stop it becoming a non-proxy war, the media needs to stop faffing about real or imagined Russian incursions, and start talking about the elephant in the room - the desperate war that has gone unreported or only partially reported for too long, and the urgent need for a real dialogue between Kiev and the rebels as being now the only alternative to full on war in Europe.

    hatstan -> Black Cat 27 August 2014 4:08pm
    This is the new Putinbot line....
    damute -> hatstan, 27 August 2014 4:20pm
    Ukrainian propagandists need to understand and get through their thick skulls these are people posting with their eye's open and awake to the lies we are being force fed by MSM.
    ffurtado2001 , 27 August 2014 3:58pm
    Fact is, like many people wrote on the comments section of this journal, the anti-Kiev forces were defeating the junta offensives and encircling some of its troops. This did not start yesterday, but since mid august.
    Now the junta as exhausted its forces and the People΄s Republic΄s Army are launching several counter-strikes. It is possible that te entire Kiev armies south of Donetsk collapse. Thats what is happening, but Kiev wants to mask its lies and failure so it says its a "Russian Invasion"...
    karakonchar , 27 August 2014 4:00pm
    The moments of war

    Video. DNR trophy division rep demonstrating captured Ukrainian artillery and ammo.

    Quotes:

    • "This is all captured by our "Mebelshik" battalion. Ukrainians, come to us now we are waiting for you."
    • "Who come to us with the sword by the sword will be punished. We are ready now"
    • "This is for our dead children and women, for our ruined cities, from our dying livestock, for the coming winter"
    • "I want Ukrainian military to look at this, and I want American sold-out scum to look at this"
    • "And I want them to stop their fairytales that Russia is helping us. If Russia helps us, if we are lucky, if this ever happens then we… Ok I should stop now."
    Canadianidol -> karakonchar
    If Russians ever stopped writing these long boring novels the size of a phonebook they might have time to get some work done.
    damute -> Canadianidol , 27 August 2014 4:23pm

    You are not a Canadian. No Canadian would post 100's of times over a month and 1000's over a course of a few months with anti-Russia rhetoric.

    SHappens, 27 August 2014 4:11pm
    J-7 to the NATO Summit

    Expect in these coming days, numerous crossings border, columns of tanks seen, West prisoners tortured, spontaneous confessions from the Russians prisoners they were on mission, false flags, and all kind of bad things by the Russians you can think of.

    "We expect practical assistance and monumental decisions from our Western partners at the summit, which will take place September 4. We need help," Yatsenyuk said.

    Of course Mr Yatsenyuk.

    Jeremn -> SHappens, 27 August 2014 4:15pm
    Indeed, meeting in Minsk? Wait, we have evidence of an invasion! Peace talks? Wait, we have evidence of an invasion!

    [Aug 26, 2014] Ukraine president Petro Poroshenko: Putin summit to decide fate of Europe by Shawn Walker

    From comments: "Shaun writes now that Russian military vehicles crossed an unmarked border section two weeks ago, but two weeks ago Shaun wrote that the vehicles went through a hole in a barbed write fence which marked the border line then although I doubted that it was marking border zone."
    Aug 26, 2014 | The Guardian
    EmergingMaster, 26 August 2014 8:03pm
    Shawn Walker seems to be deeply scared by the possibility of peace.
    ElectroMagneticPulse -> EmergingMaster , 26 August 2014 8:16pm

    Shawn Walker seems to be deeply scared by the possibility of peace.

    Shaun Walker reported on Russian military vehicles illegally entering Ukraine, and the Putinbots howled, and screamed, and stamped their feet.

    Today's evidence that Russians are indeed deploying troops secretly in Ukraine vindicates Shawn. An apology is due from the Putinbots, who have repeatedly lied on behalf of the Kremlin.

    PekkaRoivanen -> ElectroMagneticPulse , 26 August 2014 9:29pm
    Shaun writes now that Russian military vehicles crossed an unmarked border section two weeks ago, but two weeks ago Shaun wrote that the vehicles went through a hole in a barbed write fence which marked the border line then although I doubted that it was marking border zone.

    Which one is true? The first story or the newest one?

    RuStand , 26 August 2014 8:38pm

    And if we weren't here, none of this would have happened.

    When did he learn this Ukranian propaganda mantra ? This is not his words.
    karakonchar, 26 August 2014 8:47pm

    Kiev wants to finish its "anti-terrorist operation"

    So far it looks like the "anti-terrorist operation" will finish Kiev.

    kennyboy, 26 August 2014 8:56pm

    The Russian position on Eastern Ukraine has been entirely consistent from start to finish: end the military conflict and East and West Ukraine negotiate the political future of the region. There was an opportunity when Poreshenko was elected, even though the east was not represented in the election. Part of his platform was to bring peace to the East and his first pronouncements seemed to confirm this prognosis. However, this position did not survive the first phone call from Washington and the attack on the east started. When it became clear that the Ukranian army would not kill its own citizens, things looked hopeful again, but the mobilisation of Right sector and oligarch's private army's with the support of the western governments signed the death warrant for a peaceful settlement.

    Poreshenko is so wrong, he is right. Europe is at risk and its bought and paid for politicians are handing us all over to the international oligarchy against the best interests of its population. When the majority of us realise this, it will be too late. It will be interesting to see if Obama reverses the militarisation of the police and will Boris be told to get rid of his water cannon. I won't hold my breath.

    karakonchar -> kennyboy , 26 August 2014 9:43pm

    Poreshenko is so wrong, he is right.

    So true. Good point.

    nclames, 26 August 2014 9:23pm

    It's such a shame that The Guardian does not have anyone to report from Minsk.
    I expected to get some information on actually summit instead of
    "Two weeks ago, the Guardian saw a convoy of armoured personnel carriers and support trucks with Russian military plates cross an unmarked section of the border near Donetsk."

    PekkaRoivanen -> nclames, 26 August 2014 9:33pm

    Actually two weeks ago the border was marked by barbed wire fence according to Shaun but now, it was not marked.

    fairandreasonabletoo, 26 August 2014 9:49pm

    Poroshenko is likely more concerned with his own survivability I imagine.

    dion13 -> fairandreasonabletoo, 26 August 2014 9:55pm

    The problem with Poroshenko is that he doesn't say what he means and doesn't do what he says.

    wimberlin, 26 August 2014 10:00pm

    Poroshenko is a coward and will go down in history as the loser who divided the country -no amount of grandstanding and melodramatic apocalyptical drivel from him will change this.

    When the US/EU/Nato promoted regime change in Ukraine, they needed a willing local tool to legitimize their agenda - and Poroshenko is their man.

    He has not had the courage to accept that he has inherited a divided nation and do the most important thing which was needed - provide leadership to provide unity in the country. But he has not provided that, he has not even pretended to do that.

    Instead he has joined forces with the darkest and most backward ultra-nationalist forces, Nazis in fact, who think they run rough-shod over the people in the Donbas.

    childofmine, 26 August 2014 10:45pm

    Why are our leaders sacrificing our future? It is their reckless obedience to Washington's diktats that threatens the stability of Europe. The fix is in; the coup in Kiev was designed to precipitate just such a crisis - one that could be used as a pretext for more 'defensive' NATO bases in Easter Europe. The US is playing with fire, Europe is the tinder. The US is all washed-up and it knows it. Russia has fabulous potential and wants Europe as a partner - we would be mad to refuse the hand of friendship and cooperation. Haven't we had enough of Washington's lies? Have we learnt nothing in the last 20 years?

    EmergingMaster, 26 August 2014 11:04pm

    The facts of geopolitical life. Even if that is true, a country that can't hold itself together can't pretend to be a meaningful sovereignty.

    Managing powerful neighbors is an essential skill for any self-respecting polity.

    Time for Ukraine to grow up. Otherwise they'll suffer the fate of Mexico, which lost "New America" to a powerful neighbor.

    Systematic , 26 August 2014 11:19pm

    Putin about his conversation with Poroshenko:

    "We didn't discuss a ceasefire because Russia is not party to the conflict".

    My translation:

    "If Poroshenko wants to stop his army from being obliterated by the Novorossiyans, he should talk to them directly".

    grimpeur, 26 August 2014 11:38pm

    This is one of the most interesting and 'left-field' analysis of the Ukraine situation, particularly relating to the eastern regions, that I have seen! Worth reading for a completely different perspective from both the Western media, including the Guardian, and RT News!

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39477.htm

    Oskar Jaeger -> grimpeur, 27 August 2014 12:10am

    Thank you. This was interesting and it might even be true. Having created a monster, Kremlin might no longer be able to fully control it.

    Danie Nortje -> Oskar Jaeger, 27 August 2014 12:17am

    It disingenuous to think Russia created this situation on their own, i.e. it assumes that the people in the East were somehow happy that they with what happened at and after Maidan, i.e. the move to an anti russian policy.

    An over simplification given historical voting patterns and ethnic groupings in the region of the conflict

    randomrob, 26 August 2014 11:49pm

    I've looked at the Ukraine constitution briefly - the 2004 one which was annulled by the Constitutional Court of Ukraine in 2010 and then reinstated in 2014 after the President was dismissed outside the law.

    Even so, I'm at a lost to understand how parliament can be dismissed. There is a Prime Minister and one year has not passed since the last extraordinary election.

    The current President is now attempting a complete lustration at the same time as disenfranchising the east of Ukraine who will almost certainly not be able to vote due to the fighting and displacement. The vote will also 'include' Crimean without representation even though to all intents and purposes the peninsular has acceded.

    grimpeur , 27 August 2014 12:04am

    Like the author of the following article, Mike Shedlock, I don't know how reliable the following assessment of the situation in eastern Ukraine actually is, but, if anything even approximating the reality, we could end up with a federal Ukraine partitioned at the Dneiper and with the East having a quasi-independent autonomy!

    http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/outright-military-victory-by-rebels.html

    retsdon, 27 August 2014 12:49am

    People sleepwalk into major wars. There's far too much belligerent talk from the west and not enough across the table diplomacy.It's the utter refusal to acknowledge that Russia has strategic concerns too which is so dangerous. That and the unnecessarily hostile language which seems designed to goad.

    Russia wants to put a customs union together with her neighbours. Why not? The west did it and called it the EU. The Americans did it and called it NAFTA. The Russians propose it and they're supposedly re-establishing the Soviet Union.

    Russia is right to view the west as dangerously belligerent - because it is. It's a real worry that idiots like Rasmussen and Cameron will fall for their own propaganda and precipitate a major war in Europe through their hubris and stupidity. Russia will not back down because she can't afford to.

    Poroshenko? He just says what he's told to say by his handlers, simple as that. Ukraine is no longer an independent state. but a province of the Empire - and Russia will fight to avoid the same fate.

    All the hawks on these boards need to ask themselves if they seriously want a major trans-national war in Europe. Because that's what we're going to get unless the western expansionists sober up.

    Antidyatel, 27 August 2014 1:18am

    Anybody can explain refusal of EU/NATO to acknowledge rebels as a party for diplomatic negotiations, in comparison to twisting hands of Assad to talk to some unknown to nature animals, like moderate islamists in Syrian civil war?

    coober, 27 August 2014 1:37am

    As a frequent flyer with Malaysian Airline it appears to me that the Ukraine Government murdered 298 people on MH17 to blame Russia and so put more NATO bases into Ukraine etc. Stupid Australian Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, led the lies and should stand down. Warmonger, Rupert Murdoch, used stupid Abbott to manufacture "news" for his media monopoly to sell. I think the FBI should arrest terrorism promoter Murdoch for damaging US/Russia relations.

    [Aug 25, 2014] Ukraine troops battled Russian armoured column, claims Kiev by Shaun Walker

    25 August 2014 | The Guardian

    Asimpleguest, 25 August 2014 12:15pm

    again? but Poroshenko said the armored vehicles were COMPLETELY destroyed (pulverized) last week...

    can we have some pictures and some ''third party'' witness who can confirm?

    it is really boring to hear the same BS from Kiev all over again... without any solid evidence!

    swing433 -> Asimpleguest, 25 August 2014 12:36pm

    Phantom Invasion, phantom tanks, phantom evidence, Phantom destroyed Russian military vehicles. Somebody really gotta do something about this phantom menace.

    Ydarn1k -> Asimpleguest, 25 August 2014 12:43pm

    Kiev authorities just try covering up complete military disaster in the East by finding new Russia invasion forces every day. Poor planning and logistics of Ukrainian army led to the massive rebel counteroffensive following by encirclement of huge forces south of Donetsk.

    Of course it's still not a defeat since Ukrainian army can try to cut through rebel defensive lines and escape, but it's still a big blow to Ukrainian military prestige.

    Ydarn1k -> Philip Larmett, 25 August 2014 12:59pm

    All right then explain me this. According to Ukrainian media Donetsk and Lugansk are completely encircled and army now is waging heavy fighting in suburbs. How come come that during all these time not a single Russian army soldier was captured or killed? I mean, surely if Ukrainian army had destroyed a platoon of Russian soldiers Internet now would have been filled with photos.

    atavistic -> Asimpleguest, 25 August 2014 1:26pm

    the way in which every word that falls from Poroshenko's lips is so blindly accepted and regurgitated by this rag. once again there is absolutely no proof provided by anyone to substantiate these claims.

    Surely the US could provide some proof as it did with the downing of the Malaysian flight ... oh, it didn't release its information then either did it ... surely the best way to support your ally would be to prove him right!

    anyone who believes without question the crass and unsubstantiated rubbish published by this and other rags doesn't deserve a vote!

    Scott Maciejewski -> Asimpleguest, 25 August 2014 3:03pm

    Next week he'll say he's beaten Russia into submission. this guy's a bad a liar as George Bush and Tony Blair!

    Guest222 -> Asimpleguest, 25 August 2014 6:58pm

    The biggest issue with this crisis is blatant accusations from Kiev`s side without any proof.

    What happened to Malaysian plane? Nobody, except Russia, China and Malaysia seem to be interested in investigation.

    mauman -> iamshchik, 25 August 2014 7:23pm

    BBC backtracked on a Military column

    Natalya Restivo -> Asimpleguest, 25 August 2014 9:34pm

    It's 1001th invasion, with no evidence, just Russophobic hysteria for junta's supporters which they need as air to breathe.

    uponreflection -> VladimirM, 25 August 2014 12:24pm

    "A Ukrainian military spokesman told AFP border guards were battling "several dozen" armored vehicles that crossed the border and headed in the direction of the government-held city of Mariupol."

    Even the State Department and the Head of Nato are silent on that. It's too much even for them, I think.

    monkie -> VladimirM, 25 August 2014 1:24pm

    Even the State Department and the Head of Nato are silent on that. It's too much even for them, I think.

    there seems to be quite a lot of silence about aspects of the conflict, the kiev regime has clearly made advances on the ground but the losses suffered seem to be considerable.

    have we had any reporting about what happened in the "southern cauldron" as the rebels describe it?

    i see these figures quoted a lot:

    more than four months of fighting that has cost more than 2,200 lives

    but there is a revealing video up on YouTube (with English captions) of the survivors and family members of the missing conscripts of the 30th mechanized brigade confronting the commander demanding answer for what happened to them. apparently only 83 men returned out of 4700. this would point to massive losses for the Kiev regime.
    NWObserver -> VladimirM, 25 August 2014 1:32pm

    Nothing is too much for the consummate liars in the US State Department or the NATO, nor for those that pretend to believe them.

    It looks like they are not interested in backing the Kiev regime's lies with their own, just now.

    magix1 -> VladimirM, 25 August 2014 1:49pm

    Come on! Last week glorious Ukrainian Army destroyed armored group of 50 Russian tanks which crossed the border and then was destroyed and then mysteriously disappeared. Tanks were presumably destroyed with annihilators and atomizers, some of the column was turned into antimatter, some was reduced to atoms and electrons. That is why no evidence left. Now Russian tanks are "trying to invade Mariupol" which is about 100 km south to the actual fighting.

    Why? Ask delusional "Ukrainian patriots". Next week they will be destroying 1000 Russian plane West of Kiev.

    ProfWilliams, 25 August 2014 12:26pm

    Looks like Poroshenko is lying again about Russian troops.

    The latest news is that the rebels have now encircled thousands of Kiev troopers and national guards and are currently moving to liquidate the trapped forces (RT today and Youtube). Many weapons, including tanks have reportedly either been captured or knocked out.

    Has anyone else heard about this?

    CutThruMediaLies, 25 August 2014 12:26pm

    Satire - no justice.

    Q Who took down the Malaysian aircraft A Not the Russians as the Guardian would have reported it. Minor Dutch parties sending notes of apologies to Putin...
    Q How many Ukrainian Casualties in the ATO? A. 23K....
    Q How much Russian Intervention in this war? A. None or the Guardian would have reported it.
    Q How many times have the Ukrainians taken cities (e.g. Ilovaske?) 4 times with the latest being 25% taken...
    Q What is happening now? An Offensive against the Ukrainian Army with an estimated 6K surrounded and the Right Sector expecting an attack on Mariupol.
    Q. In the picture above what are the civilians shouting at A. Fascists..

    What a whitewash. I hope the guardian is proud of itself.

    GlenninLuton -> CutThruMediaLies, 25 August 2014 12:31pm

    what minor Dutch parties sending notes of apology please? Do you have a link?

    CutThruMediaLies -> GlenninLuton, 25 August 2014 12:40pm

    Oops very minor party one sycophantic sounding professor. Interesting nonetheless. and well qualified.

    http://orientalreview.org/2014/08/13/dutch-professor-apologizing-for-mh17-tragedy-media-coverage-in-the-netherlands/

    GlenninLuton, 25 August 2014 12:27pm

    I watched this press conference. Lavrov was asked about updates on the tragic deaths caused by the downing of the Malaysian Boeing. He said that the Western voices making accusations based on alleged evidence proving 'Russian backed separatists' had downed the plane had now gone silent and produced NO evidence whatsoever.

    He also said that vital information was being withheld from public like black box data and voice records of pilots by Ukrainian Secret Services and their NATO backers.

    He accused the western media of not pursuing the truth and the failure by the Guardian to EVEN MENTION this interchange at the press conference only serves to make his point.

    MikeKasatsky -> GlenninLuton, 25 August 2014 12:31pm

    The Guardian is serving the needs of UK and US

    MikeKasatsky, 25 August 2014 12:29pm

    The authorities in Kiev lost a sense of reality...

    do they think that anyone believes in what they say? I really doubt.
    Not even they masters believe in it.

    VladimirM -> MikeKasatsky, 25 August 2014 12:35pm

    They invent the alternative one, as if there is another Ukraine - Ukraine-2. In terms of Ukraine-2 these things can happen.

    blatttman, 25 August 2014 12:30pm

    How dare Russia send another convoy to help the people of the Donbass! I mean how provocative can you get with this blatant humanitarian aid for the civilian population.

    I Don't understand the media blackout on the peoples suffering in this region, it really is strange, I guess if you speak Russian it can't be news worthy.

    MikeKasatsky -> blatttman, 25 August 2014 1:19pm

    The West is deeply involved in this mess in Ukraine. The West is prepared to cover up whatever Ukraine does. Most of the media are in a war mode.

    ParapolitikosTypos -> blatttman, 25 August 2014 3:45pm

    No there isn't a complete black out. Guardian and other western media have reported about the terrible plague of the capture Ukrainian soldiers that few hours ago they were carpet bombing Donetsk with artillery units.

    But generally, yes:

    • Zero report about the 700 000 refugees.
    • Zero report about the carpet bombing of Ukrainian cities.
    • Zero reporting about the thousand dead civilians
    • Zero reporting about the humanitarian crises in the East Ukrainian cities.

    Well the last isn't true. They reported it as an invasion of Russian trucks carrying food and water for the starving populace.

    mauman, 25 August 2014 12:36pm

    "Ukraine troops battle Russian armored column, claims Kiev"

    Kiev claims an extraordinary amount of Rubbish. It's why you feature a picture of the Donbass "parade" because there is no column.

    Or were these the same kind of "Military column" that Shaun Walker claims 2 weeks ago. The one where the BBC later said that they didn't "exactly say it was military" before deleting the comment.

    Suppose this phantom column will be defeated like the previous phantom column.

    I really don't get why the press keep quoting Kiev. Surely it affects the media's credibility when their sources keep lying and it then becomes apparent that the media have been printing BS propaganda all along and acting as a mouthpiece to ratchet up Ukraine's obvious desire to escalate things, thinking NATO will come to their aid with more than just OUR tax money.

    MullahsForLunch, 25 August 2014 12:39pm
    Yawn......evidence?

    The Guardian has become the de facto mouthpiece of the Ukrainian forces....voicing their every insecurity and propaganda to the Western population.

    lids -> MullahsForLunch, 25 August 2014 12:45pm
    Don't think the guardian editors have cottoned on to the fact that we see these headlines and chuckle..

    ID1744585, 25 August 2014 12:41pm

    Given their history of brazen dishonesty, and the Western media 's history of craven and unquestioning accession to any claim they make. I would suggest that you have got to be kidding.

    After the last series of claims were proven false the Guardian just pretended the whole fiasco had nothing to do with them.

    It's clear, War with Russia is a given, until it starts there will be an avalanche of shameless propaganda from the professional liars of the Western media.

    Philos83, 25 August 2014 1:02pm

    If Ukraine keeps defeating all these Russian armoured columns they'll go into history as the best tank fighters since the Red Army rolled the Wehrmacht all the way back to Berlin.... Of course, these battles would need to be more than fictions fabricated by the amateur propagandists in Kiev

    Other than the lack of evidence for any of this nonsense (with a number of NATO satellites over Ukraine you can bet the MSM would be flooding us with pictures) the best indicator that Kiev hasn't encountered any Russian armour is that the Russian Air Force isn't bombing them to smithereens.

    [Aug 25, 2014] Ukraine rebels struggle to reach aid as Russian convoy returns home by Alec Luhn

    The Guardian

    NYC123, 23 August 2014 5:43pm

    Where is free democratic EU aid to starving people?

    NYC123 -> NYC123, 23 August 2014 5:51pm

    Or they are not on our side of the fence let them die so we can continue propagandize how human free democratic is our system. Who are not under us is against us.

    Parangaricurimicuaro -> NYC123, 23 August 2014 5:52pm

    The question is: where is the free and democratic Europe?

    mojahataskraju -> NYC123, 23 August 2014 5:53pm

    It's a wrong question. Free West wants first to destroy these cities to free them from "terrorists".

    Sickofpoliticians NYC123, 23 August 2014 7:29pm

    You only get that if you're on the 'right' side. Between our lying politicians, those of the EU the Yank police force of the world and the totally fkin useless UN coupled with the Ukrainian Nazi party I'm surprised theres anyone left alive in eastern Ukraine. As usual we are the warmongers, instigators and thieves of world resources, I'm ashamed to be British watching our elitists at work.

    ProfWilliams, 23 August 2014 5:49pm

    And the USA threatens additional consequences unless the humanitarian assistance stops. OK to bomb the civilians in Donetsk and Lugansk but not to help them. Fuck USA. Leave Europe alone.

    LanaCvi -> ProfWilliams, 23 August 2014 6:18pm

    Did you not read the article? Why fuck the USA? Leave Europe alone?

    "Nato, the European Union, Ukraine and the US condemned Russia's decision to send the convoy in without the participation of Kiev or the ICRC. The British ambassador in Ukraine, Mark Lyall Grant, called it "an undeniable and blatant violation of Ukrainian sovereignty" after an emergency UN security council meeting on Friday. The Pentagon had threatened "additional costs and isolation" if the convoy was not withdrawn immediately, but it did not appear that further sanctions were on the table."

    Bogdanich -> nycboy73, 23 August 2014 7:15pm

    Yes Russia delivers >4,500 tons of food, water, blankets, tents and stuff and the headlines in the U.S. scream Russian aggression, invasion and so on. The front page of the Wall Street Journal reads, "Russian Forces Strike Ukraine." Yeah, with food.

    Regrettably, however most Americans can't or don't read and all they get is the impression of the headlines so the impression sticks. It's a very sick and twisted system. Checking the Guardian I see the Brits are no better if not worse.

    Stewby, 23 August 2014 6:04pm

    Compare "pro-Russia media said that shelling was preventing people from getting to the aid" with the headline "Ukraine rebels struggle to reach aid as Russian convoy returns home."

    I thought the whole point of the Guardian's vigorous justifications of the anti-terrorist operation was predicated upon the idea that many of the eastern Ukrainians were loyal to Kiev but were being forced towards Russia by a small number of rebels. Your headline is not supported in the story as far as I can tell. Growing up in Appalachia I was surrounded by uncompromising patriots, so if I am able to see the obvious bias in your coverage then many others will as well.

    We may not be known for our smarts down here in the foothills, but I know biased journalism when I see it. You would be amazed at how many of my neighbors, most of which are veterans from our half-century of unceasing warfare, simply do not believe anything the media says anymore. These are simple people that are tired of being led into wars for Europe when Europeans won't pay for their own defense or put their own lives on the line. I had trusted the Guardian because of your excellent reporting on the National Security state, but now all the sudden you repeat their talking points as if they were the gospel truth. Where would we be if you had given such deference to NSA talking points when they were trying to pull the wool over your eyes. Why do you place so much trust in NATO and the State Department but not the NSA? It certainly cannot be because of their record of truth-telling. Kiev has also shown themselves to lie about as often as Russia about the conflict, and yet you quote them as if they haven't been caught in numerous lies since they rose to power. I simply don't understand why you have become stenographers for one part of the US government while questioning ceaselessly a different agency of the executive branch. To me it is inexplicable. I especially don't understand how you are able to quote Rasmussen's claims without including a wink and a nudge emoticon following

    Marilyn Justice, 23 August 2014 6:07pm

    Well, as everyone can see, Russia promised and delivered humanitarian aid to innocent civilians in the Donbas area of Ukraine. US EU NATO all calling this an 'invasion' what a joke. I don't blame Putin for sending in the trucks. Kiev was stalling to try to finish off the cities and take control, but as of right now the rebels are pushing back his army - I only wish they could push it back to Kiev. We need a ceasefire and real dialog.

    The people of Novorossiya deserve to have their voices heard. They have the same right to self determination as you and I. Their best chance is with a federal system of states/provinces with fair representation in an open and transparent election and government. Good Luck to you!

    Doug Salzmann, 23 August 2014 6:11pm

    You'd think the West and its presstitutes would eventually be too embarrassed to keep running this series of breathless stories about fantasy invasions.

    But, no, being Masters of the World Community means never having to say, "I'm an idiot."

    Матвей Тарасов, 23 August 2014 6:12pm

    About that "equipment from Topaz factory", I suggest to "TheGuardian" journalists to watch Russian TV sometimes. The trucks were inspected both times while going in and out of Ukraine, inspected by both Russian and Ukrainian customs. They were empty while returning. It's on the screen, wake up, guys!

    Evgeny Petrov -> Матвей Тарасов, 23 August 2014 6:18pm

    Guardians journalists have another reliable source of informations - Psaki. It is enough for any british media

    Kal El, 23 August 2014 6:15pm

    The US dropped humanitarian help to the Iraqis on the mountain almost immediately.

    Where was the EU or the US help for the people in Lugansk who has gone without food, water or medicine for 3 weeks ?

    Hypocrits the lot of them.

    Stewby -> Kal El, 23 August 2014 6:31pm

    Apparently there was nothing wrong with aiding Kosovars without Serbia's permission. I don't mind states acting in their own national interest, but hypocrisy really bothers me. I would make a terrible diplomat, but so does John Kerry so maybe there's still hope.

    Parangaricurimicuaro, 23 August 2014 6:19pm

    The West didn't want the humanitarian aid to get to Luhansk, but they were so quick and happy delivering cookies to Kiev; Nuland cookies ™.

    madeiranlotuseater, 23 August 2014 6:25pm

    How sad for Rasmussen. Humanitarian aid successfully delivered despite being branded a trojan horse. The Red Cross did not condemn the convoy. They simply did not have the ability to act alone when Kiev refused to back off with the shelling. Russia, on the other hand, grasped the proverbial nettle and got on with it.

    Oppressed people helped by nation vilified by the US, EU, MIC etc.

    Merkle response: give 500 million to Poroshenko to continue blowing up Ukrainians who happen not to agree with him.

    voodoomoo -> madeiranlotuseater, 23 August 2014 7:58pm

    Cameron too has pledged a billion £ i read somewhere. I cannot express how utterly pi@@*d i am that he would be funding the slaughter of innocents in Ukr rather than spending it on desperate Britons. Fair enough if he was sending aid to those being bombarded, but no, giving it to kiev so they can buy bombs.

    tiojo, 23 August 2014 6:29pm

    There is condemnation of Russia for sending an aid convoy into Eastern Ukraine but we have yet to see any coverage in the Guardian of any action by the Kiev government to care for its citizens displaced by the civil war. We know that thousands of people have left the region many to Russia including Crimea. But what is President Poroshenko doing - except bombing, shelling and making homeless his own citizens? Where is the political initiative either from President Poroshenko or from the EU for a solution to this dispute? Is the only answer to increase the supply of arms and to impose yet more mutual sanctions? It seems European politicians are in the hands of their military advisers. Why are they not proposing any peaceful solutions?

    madeiranlotuseater, 23 August 2014 6:32pm

    I cannot remember an article where such a high percentage of commentators disagreed with the editorial slant.

    When will our politicians wake up to the fact that they are going more and more in the wrong direction?

    fansince76 madeiranlotuseater, 23 August 2014 8:24pm

    Our politicians are greedy so and so's. Prostitution is their way, and the corporate interests their best customers.

    monkie -> Stewby, 23 August 2014 8:52pm

    It would take too much gumption for a leftist paper

    a so called leftist paper afraid of being smeared as left wing?

    more pertinent is the fact that for quite a while the guardian has directly channelled the foreign office and or the US state department on foreign affairs, it mainly seems to quote from UK and US and oligarch/1% funded "think tanks" and "activists" and "experts", the online edition now has a US editor instead of the UK editor it had until recently, and the heavy push into the US market by the guardian has seen a change in tone above the line, and below the line going by the increased proliferation of ignorant and hate filled comments beneath many articles.

    very little to do with wings, more to do with inherent biases and commercial considerations?

    exeterx, 23 August 2014 6:48pm

    Kiev have extreme right groops governing Ukraine, and murdering their citizens ..... EU cannot support this, this is nacism and ethnical clensning of civilian population, and you see it every day on TV ...disgused as ATO Operation of Ukraine Military, but acctually ATO operation of Maidan right extremes battalions with neo-naci ideology and international support of this lobbyst.

    rvorvo, 23 August 2014 6:48pm

    Like somebody said here...
    I vote for "invasive" humanitarian aid vs bombing civilians.
    Really, EU/US probably don't consider people in Lugansk as humans who deserve sympathy. So what is left for those poor people?
    Only rely on Russian aid....

    zerozero, 23 August 2014 7:01pm

    In Iraq possible threat of massacres, must help, in east Ukraine, same, must not help.

    I mean, shelling is indiscriminate, Kiev will kill its own citizens. If it believes Russia is at war with it (as it says repeatedly) it should be at war with Russia. An 'anti terrorist operation' that uses shelling on its own territory reveals its self contradictory ideas. It needs the war to retain power by violence, a war with itself, its own citizens, not Russia..

    MrSvejk, 23 August 2014 7:01pm

    to their credit the German government are trying to find a peaceful resolution to prevent further killing of helpless civilians, but the warmongering fascist who rule over us in the UK are intent of ramping up the pressure by making provocative inflammatory statements, no doubt to curry favour with the Nazi US gangsters

    HAL911, 23 August 2014 7:10pm

    americans accuse russia of violating ukrainian territory

    in other news

    "An official with the White House has not ruled out immediate air strikes in Syria against ISIS according to the Washington Post under the guise of protecting US citizens."

    "Indeed, it was revealed that the United States has already made at least one incursion into Syria in recent weeks.

    On Wednesday the Pentagon divulged the failed raid to rescue James Foley was conducted over the July 4 weekend and raided the wrong camp"

    damute -> HAL911, 23 August 2014 7:12pm

    Americans are exceptional don't you know?

    damute HAL911, 23 August 2014 7:12pm

    Americans are exceptional don't you know?

    Johnny Kent -> damute, 23 August 2014 7:41pm

    Yes, they are exceptional...(add your own adjective)....

    ParapolitikosTypos, 23 August 2014 7:11pm

    Thank you Angela Merkel, you only took you six months to get a grip on reality.

    Six months, 10 000 Ukrainian soldiers dead, 5 thousand civilians and, 2 thousands rebels dead and 700 000 refugees.

    Let's see how many more months and deads it ll take you to act.

    Maybe it needs the winter to kick out and see the rabid advance of the rebels eastwards in a collapsing Ukraine ravage by social unrest and revolt.

    murnau, 23 August 2014 7:13pm

    Nato, the European Union, Ukraine and the US condemned Russia's decision to send the convoy in without the participation of Kiev or the ICRC. The British ambassador in Ukraine, Mark Lyall Grant, called it "an undeniable and blatant violation of Ukrainian sovereignty" after an emergency UN security council meeting on Friday. The Pentagon had threatened "additional costs and isolation" if the convoy was not withdrawn immediately, but it did not appear that further sanctions were on the table.

    The usual double standards
    :
    The United Nations has sent its first aid convoy into Syria without the consent of the government in Damascus.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28476873

    Milogrim, 23 August 2014 7:17pm

    "Now we need a two-sided ceasefire linked to a clear controlling of the Russian-Ukrainian border, otherwise peace won't be achieved," Merkel said.

    And who's going to monitor these "little rude brown men"? Red Cross vs. Wolfsangel?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11025137/Ukraine-crisis-the-neo-Nazi-brigade-fighting-pro-Russian-separatists.html

    AndreyR2008, 23 August 2014 7:19pm

    Today in Donetsk 2 Russian terrorists were killed, aged 4 and 7. This is a great victory for Democracy! Long live Ukraine!

    Milogrim, 23 August 2014 7:36pm

    While Moscow cheered a successful aid mission, Mr. Poroshenko claimed credit for Ukraine, saying that "our strong and coordinated efforts managed to avoid provocation."

    Huh?

    By swiftly returning the trucks to Russia, the Kremlin seemed to seize an opportunity to make its detractors in Kiev and the West appear alarmist

    Indeed

    NYT Convoy of Trucks Returns to Russia From Ukraine

    Correction: August 23, 2014

    An earlier version of this article misspelled the surname of the NATO Secretary General. Because of an editing error, an earlier version of this correction misspelled his given name. He is Anders Fogh Rasmussen - not Rasumussen, as the article stated, and not Angers, as the correction stated.

    LOL!

    zorrooorroo, 23 August 2014 7:36pm

    articles:"The vehicles, many of them repainted military trucks

    ==========

    1.why it is important which trucks the state use to provide humanitarian aid?

    2. those trucks were Emerhency Ministry'strucks which are green indeed - repainted not to be mistaken for military and so not to be targeted

    --
    so what about is the innuendo in this phrase - "many of them repainted military trucks"? - just disability of the author to contaiin hate inside of him/her and so spontaneous spouting out something that at least in his/her imagination may look BAD and so clutching at a straw by this hint that those trucks had something to do with military?

    Nik Nazarevsky, 23 August 2014 7:38pm

    Do you know the Topaz factory is situated on Donetsk?

    Milogrim -> Nik Nazarevsky, 23 August 2014 7:48pm

    Good catch. Ukies stopped bothering with even a semblance of authenticity to their claims.

    OpiumAddict -> Milogrim, 23 August 2014 8:15pm

    which doesnt stop the Guardian repeating them without even a pretence at fact checking.

    StickyBastard -> Nik Nazarevsky, 23 August 2014 8:39pm

    Kiev and their low-grade functionaries don't do Facts, Logic, Mathematics, Truth or Maps.

    exeterx, 23 August 2014 7:45pm

    I have one stupid quesstion ....If this are Ukraine rebels, so why then Kiev and EU, and US need to negotiate with Moscow ....Isnt it then Ukraine internal question, and Kiev need to negotiate with their own rebelous citizens....

    Kiev must have peacefull people who will want to talk with their own citizens in east Ukraine, not with Moscow or EU or USA ....Sending battalions of right wing pronaci volunteers to the east Ukraine aint peacefull, last time I wrote that in dictionary was called "ETHNICAL CLEANSNING".

    Exodus20, 23 August 2014 7:45pm

    The International Committee for the Red Cross (ICRC), which was supposed to monitor the aid mission, did not escort the convoy after it failed to receive "sufficient security guarantees from the fighting parties", it said in a statement. But ICRC staff members were reportedly with the aid supplies in Luhansk.

    ICRC has not objected to the contents of the aid. It seem more and more likely the aid is genuine, Kiev is obstructing and there are some in the west who want Ukrainian Russians to starve, suffer and die. doesn't seem right when there ar so much concern, alarm about what's happening to civilians in Iraq.

    Aren't civilian victims equal regardless of race, gender, religion, wealth, status, age ...? Or does it really depend on geo-political, monetary, racial agenda and objectives?

    Milogrim, 23 August 2014 7:55pm

    In this specific case Russia is correct in applying "UN-Responsibility to Protect" protocols in separatist-Ukraine: The three pillars of the responsibility to protect, as stipulated in the Outcome Document of the 2005 United Nations World Summit (A/RES/60/1, para. 138-140) and formulated in the Secretary-General's 2009 Report (A/63/677) on Implementing the Responsibility to Protect are:

    1. The State carries the primary responsibility for protecting populations from genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity and ethnic cleansing, and their incitement;

    2. The international community has a responsibility to encourage and assist States in fulfilling this responsibility;

    3. The international community has a responsibility to use appropriate diplomatic, humanitarian and other means to protect populations from these crimes. If a State is manifestly failing to protect its populations, the international community must be prepared to take collective action to protect populations, in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

    SmonkeyNutsII, 23 August 2014 7:57pm

    And while the people of Luhansk and Donetsk are being shelled, Chancellor Merkel is handing out 500 million euros of German cash to the puppets in Kiev...

    http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article131524116/Merkel-will-Ukraine-mit-halber-Milliarde-Euro-helfen.html

    Paul Moore SmonkeyNutsII, 23 August 2014 8:33pm

    So, anything coming from the EU / US is bad, while anything coming from Russia is good.

    SoloRolo SmonkeyNutsII, 23 August 2014 8:53pm

    What is Merkel up to? The last Germans who collaborated with Banderists were Hitler's SS, and killing Jews was the business of the day. She will be fully aware of the history of this movement.

    Paul Moore SoloRolo, 23 August 2014 9:12pm

    Merkel is VERY cognisant about what her country did 70 years ago and, like most of the rest of the German people has taken steps to prevent it from happening. She also is VERY aware about how this colours the way the world looks at Germany.

    This is in SHARP contrast to Putin and Russia. While some apologists may say "Russia is a different country from the USSR" Europe, especially former Soviet Block countries, do not see much of a difference in the way that Putin and today's Kremlin is acting toward other countries from the way that Stalin and his Kremlin acted toward other countries.

    exeterx, 23 August 2014 8:49pm

    Kiev sending Maidan pro-Nazi militia in east Ukraine, end of story.

    So evidence ....Wikipedia Ukraine "AZOV" Ukraine militia battalion emblem...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion....

    is not similar but same as "2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich"...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_SS_Panzer_Division_Das_Reich ....

    All EU Brussel politicians know that, including Angela.

    Martin1008, 23 August 2014 8:49pm

    Johnny Kent

    answer is simple, from very beginning Russia had said clearly as well as the west:

    1. West said we are going to expand NATO into Ukraina and Crimea.

    2. Crimea was, is and will be one of the main military base of Russia! Leggaly positioned 25 000 soldiers and ships all the time as well as during the time under the Kiev's subordination. Crimea has its own parliament, therefore it could legally voted to join Russia.

    3. When NATO would take over the Crimea via Kiev = Russia's military base, Russia's militarty sea ports, buildings etc etc whatever they had build there and of course crucial territory would fall into power of US. So US could say Russia troops out, our troops in.

    4. Russia said we are not going to lose our crucial base there.

    5. For Ukraina as the rest, Russia said we are not going to have NATO just on our doorstep, and missile posited hunderd miles away from Moscow.

    6. Russia said to west, let us make agreement about Ukraina.

    7. West said: no agreement, we are going to take over the Ukraina and make it full member of EU and NATO if you like or not.

    8. Presence.

    Robobenito, 23 August 2014 8:51pm

    Regardless of one's stance on Moscow, Kiev's constant lies has eroded any credibility. The Kiev lovers here don't understand that hatred of Moscow shouldn't automatically drive one to believe the garbage spewing from Kiev. Yes yes, Russia is terrible, and Kiev is worse.

    OpiumAddict -> spoutnique, 23 August 2014 9:09pm

    The OSCE reported all the aid trucks returned to the border crossing with their rear doors open for inspection.

    Russia doesnt do things by halves. if they were going to send troops there would be many thousands of them, armed with all manner of heavy weapons and invading from several points at once.

    [Aug 24, 2014] Ukraine marks Independence Day with parade by Shaun Walker

    From comments: "The coverage of this Ukraine crisis has been the final straw for many long time Guardian readers. I've bought the paper since 2005 and visited this website since 2007 and Im only here for the comments now."
    Aug 24, 2014 | The Guardian

    ffurtado2001, 24 August 2014 6:08pm

    When they realize that this war will take a long long time, that there is no gas for hot showers in December and that new mobilizations/conscription is required how will they morale be?

    Zoltαn Koskovics -> ffurtado2001, 24 August 2014 6:16pm

    I doubt their morale is high even now. The politicians who are parading themselves lost Crimea, started a civil war they still, despite numerous promises, couldn't finish, and tanked the economy.

    Ukrainians are not stupid, they know this.

    Zoltαn Koskovics, 24 August 2014 6:08pm

    This was the date by which, at the latest, Kiev wanted to suppress Donetsk an Lugansk. Instead there is a counter attack by the army of the south east.

    XpertMan, 24 August 2014 6:27pm

    Sure, why not celebrate when the country is is huge debt, the infrastructure of the industrial region of Donbas and Luhansk is in a devastating condition, as well as a humanitarian crisis in Eastern Ukraine, which is especially tragic in the city of Luhansk. Where is their logic and morals of the situation? People are suffering and starving, while you cheer and approve this decision. (mind you there was a protest against the holding this parade in Kiev)

    Also please remember that Kiev refused to hold a parade for the 9th May - Victory Day over Nazi Germany, which is perhaps one of the most celebrated days in many countries of the former USSR. But nothing stopped them now.

    Marqus, 24 August 2014 6:35pm
    Wonder why junta is allowed to spend money on military purposes by IMF considering new loans to fascists when the country fascists in power or not has unpaied debts?
    RuStand -> Marqus, 24 August 2014 7:28pm
    Because hypocrisy and lies rules the world.
    Canada, Jan 28.

    "Effective immediately, we will restrict entry to Canada for key Ukrainian government officials that have been responsible for the oppression and silencing of opposition voices," Citizenship and Immigration Minister Chris Alexander

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ukraine-government-officials-barred-from-canada-1.2514323
    But all these western clowns are greeting and shake hands with Poroshenko, who not just silencing, but is murdering hundreds of civilians ...
    http://en.ria.ru/world/20140824/192285926/Three-Killed-in-Donetsk-Region-Church-Shelling.html
    ucic, 24 August 2014 6:38pm

    Ukraine, said Poroshenko, was fighting "a war against external aggression; a war for Ukraine, for her freedom, honour and glory, for her people and her independence".

    There is no "honour and glory" for the people of Donetsk and other regions that the Kiev army are busy killing and also where the Kiev junta makes humanitarian aid difficult to reach those that are so desperately in need of it. Meanwhile, US/EU stooge Poroshenko finally admits that the Kiev junta are waging war against their fellow Ukrainians that are opposed to the coup that propelled members of Svoboda and other unsavoury folk into power.

    NikoNista , 24 August 2014 7:48pm
    I tought SW he is still watching Russian military convoy he "discovered" altough even Ukraininians later dismissed claims about same convoy!
    And again his article is unbiased as usual:

    The United Nations says more than 2,000 people have died in the conflict

    He forgot that most casualties were civilians from East Ukraine.

    As civilian casualties continue to mount in the east of the country

    Similar as above. Who killed all those civilians?

    Grads, used by both sides in the east, are notoriously imprecise and have been responsible for many civilian casualties. Ukraine has denied ever using them on civilian areas, though a Human Rights Watch investigation suggested this was not true.

    This is big improvement, stating that "HRW suggested this was not true".Organizations like HRW, who have the job to dicover truth, cannot suggest, only claim or not claim.

    In the end it is interesting how we always have just two type of stories.One is
    "Russians soldiers are in Ukraine, Putin is responsible for downing MH17...We don't have evidence, other then social media, but it is enough.After so called "evidence" is found to be forgery, everybody just forgets it.And same sources are used time and again
    And the other one goes "People were burned, people were graded" but those kind of story always miss perpetrator!

    after downing of MH17

    ucic,
    24 August 2014 8:00pm

    Russia has denied that it is supporting the insurgency in eastern Ukraine, while Ukraine alleges that Moscow has provided a steady stream of financial and military support.

    Why doesn't the Kiev junta admit, or even acknowledge, the part played by Victoria "Fuck the EU" Nuland and John McCain in events just prior to the coup - which overthrew a democratically elected government - and kick started the civil war and sustained violence? Or is that too much of an inconvenient truth?

    kenlinuk -> ucic, 24 August 2014 8:05pm
    What a stupid coup it was! They had a stable and peaceful country, good ties with Russia AND Europe, political and economic. Now it has a civil war with East Ukraine vs. West Ukraine. What has the coup achieved other than to ruin the country irreparably?
    RuStand kenlinuk 24 August 2014 8:26pm
    The was one unhappy group - the Nazi. Although being fed quite generously by US for 20 years, they have alrerady grew up and wanted some real blood.
    ucic -> ID5677229 24 August 2014 8:46pm

    No. On the contrary, it is a banal falsehood. Why don't you concentrate on your speciality, the nineteenth century?

    Why don't you "concentrate" on some points made in this "banal falsehood" article in the Guardian? (It's not quite the nineteenth century being last March):

    ...US efforts to turn the political tide in Ukraine away from Russian influence began much earlier. In 2004, the Bush administration had given $65 million to provide 'democracy training' to opposition leaders and political activists aligned with them, including paying to bring opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko to meet US leaders and help underwrite exit polls indicating he won disputed elections.

    This programme has accelerated under Obama. In a speech at the National Press Club in Washington DC last December as Ukraine's Maidan Square clashes escalated, Nuland confirmed that the US had invested in total "over $5 billion" to "ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic Ukraine" - she specifically congratulated the "Euromaidan" movement.

    So it would be naive to assume that this magnitude of US support to organisations politically aligned with the Ukrainian opposition played no role in fostering the pro-Euro-Atlantic movement that has ultimately culminated in Russian-backed President Yanukovych's departure.

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/06/ukraine-crisis-great-power-oil-gas-rivals-pipelines

    Systematic, 24 August 2014 8:28pm
    I wonder when the Guardian is going to change its "Ukrainians pushing the separatist fighters back to their main strongholds of Donetsk and Luhansk" script, so as to, you know, better reflect the reality on the ground.
    AnarchoConservative -> Systematic, 24 August 2014 8:32pm
    They cannot do this yet since the script from US stated Ukraine should win by 24th Aug...

    They must now get an imaginary proofs Russia is directly behind the recent Rebel advance.. yet this has to be put in more less convincing way hence the delay in reporting the change in momentum..

    Kaiama -> Systematic, 24 August 2014 8:45pm
    It's because they "ONLY" take news from "OFFICIAL" sources.
    The Kiev ATO map is complete rubbish: the convoy apparently passed through the Kiev front line 4x (2x there and 2x back Lugansk being "sourrounded". Did they let the convoy through or is the map rubbish - take your pick!

    Even the pro-Kiev Burkonews map is more accurate, and for that matter, the liveuamap (though it has some inaccuracies too). The separatist kot_ivanov maps also probably overstate things the other way, but they are regularly updated and come with lots of explanatory notes.

    The evolutionary aspect of this conflict is the information war and the difficulty of hiding things when everyone has smart phones and the internet. Thus, the challenge is simply to drown the truth in many alternative versions in order to muddy the waters.

    Ishowerdaily 24 August 2014 8:35pm
    'and everyone from toddlers to pensioners applauded the passing soldiers.'

    Does such a wholesome scene give you a warm feeling all over? Such glory, such fire in the soul of a nation, no room for weakness or compromise, only degenerates would question such scenes.

    In 50 years time people will be passing a picture around Facebook of the one guy who turned his back and he'll be the real hero.

    MosheD 24 August 2014 8:39pm
    Independence? Really? They're getting too big for their boots already. No, Kiev, no independence, you're Wall Street's bitch now.
    Dreikaiserbund 24 August 2014 8:41pm
    The parading of POWs in Donetsk today by Putin's proxies contravenes the Geneva Conventions.
    zorrooorroo Dreikaiserbund 24 August 2014 8:48pm
    nope.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrmV0aYUYLU
    Doug Salzmann Dreikaiserbund 24 August 2014 8:50pm
    Absolutely right. I support a full investigation, and vigorous prosecution if warranted, right after we finish with the trials of Yats, Poroshenko & Co.
    DomesticExtremist 24 August 2014 8:42pm
    How can Ukraine be spending 2bn on weapons when they owe 5bn for gas?
    zorrooorroo DomesticExtremist 24 August 2014 8:44pm
    it is general practice of all oligarch regimes...
    Doug Salzmann DomesticExtremist 24 August 2014 8:48pm
    I expect there are special arrangements including the bankers and the arms merchants.
    ThinkerX55, 24 August 2014 8:46pm

    Ukraine, said Poroshenko, was fighting "a war against external aggression; a war for Ukraine, for her freedom, honour and glory, for her people and her independence".

    Umm, won't joining the EU be the end of that independence ?

    zorrooorroo 24 August 2014 8:52pm
    article :"But Poroshenko will also pursue the latest peace efforts on Tuesday when he meets with Russian President Vladimir Putin

    ==========

    peace efforts?...Kiev's demand of surrender in return to amnesty is not peace efforts...peace efforts is NEGOTIATIONS and some desire to make steps to meet requirements of people of Donbass - at least for federalisation...

    Genbhd , 24 August 2014 8:57pm

    President Petro Poroshenko, addressing the crowd in Kiev, said Ukraine had been taken by surprise by the "aggression" from Russia, and promised 40 billion hryvnia (nearly £2 billion) would be spent in the coming years to re-equip the army.

    Ukraine, said Poroshenko, was fighting "a war against external aggression; a war for Ukraine, for her freedom, honour and glory, for her people and her independence".

    So, it's a "war" and against "external aggressor" to boot, but he refuses to officially declare a state of war.
    Of course we all know why - IMF wont get him money in this case - but I think in no small part is because if he ever declare war against Russia, his ass will be kicked between his ears in a matter of weeks, maybe even days.

    tanyushka, 24 August 2014 8:57pm

    something must be really wrong when The Telegraph can publish a piece like this...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11025137/Ukraine-crisis-the-neo-Nazi-brigade-fighting-pro-Russian-separatists.html

    and The Guardian keeps silence on all the crimes of Poroshenko's fascist Government... my father always told me: "in Britain read The Guardian, it's the paper of the thinking Left... and avoid The Telegraph like the pest because they are recalcitrant conservatives..."

    how can i explain him?

    Doug Salzmann -> tanyushka, 24 August 2014 9:13pm

    "how can i explain him?"

    If you figure it out, please share the answer with us.

    This whole Guardian of the Official Narrative act is very difficult to explain.

    Mouflon41 -> tanyushka, 24 August 2014 10:08pm

    The coverage of this Ukraine crisis has been the final straw for many long time Guardian readers. Ive bought the paper since 2005 and visited this website since 2007 and Im only here for the comments now.

    NikoNista, 24 August 2014 9:03pm
    Even Kyiv Post can give us a few facts about real situation:
    http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/abandoned-donbas-battalion-fights-on-361886.html

    Both Donbas fighters and three Ukrainian photographers embedded with them are enraged with what they call the lies and prevarications of both government and Ukrainian media, and want to put across their side of the story.

    With the regular army in a disastrously impoverished state, Ukraine is reliant on the goodwill of volunteers to win its war

    Semenchenko describes his men, now armed and seasoned fighters though many had never picked up a gun until a few months ago, as " a restraining factor" on a government many perceive to be betraying the ideals of EuroMaidan

    As we saw in beginning of the conflict, seems most of the regular Ukrainian army still refuses to shoot on civilians, and therefore current authorities are dependant on Right sector and Svoboda volunteers. The problem is they don't like current government and could try to incite new Maidan, even more violently then in February.

    Another interesting story is:

    http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/kremlin-backed-separatists-humiliate-ukrainian-army-in-donetsk-parade-361888.html

    Ukrainian officials claimed that only "few terrorists" are against Kiev, we can see huge crowd in Donetsk, just like for referendum.
    However I do not approve humiliating prisoners, even if they are Svoboda or RS members.

    EugeneGur -> NikoNista, 24 August 2014 9:20pm

    These are volunteers not drafted soldiers. They always hide their faces in their nazi-style parades. Perhaps, it'll do them good to look people they came to murder in the eyes?

    Some of them may sincerely think they are liberators. Then that sign a women in the front is holding should set them straight. It reads: "The Ukrainian soldier! On your hands the blood of our women and children!" The local people know full well who is truly responsible for their plight.

    Theodore Svedberg, 24 August 2014 10:13pm

    Guardian writes: " with the Ukrainians pushing the separatist fighters back to their main strongholds of Donetsk and Luhansk,"

    The Kiev regime has been making this claim for over six weeks now. However, repeating it over and over again does not make it true. At least the Guardian has the good sense not to show the official Kiev battle maps that BBC and the NY Times have posted in recent days. Today there are reports of a battle going on near the Russian border about 50 km south of the "official" southern line. The Donbas militias have even infiltrated some recon and sabotage units as far south as the Sea of Azov, just east of Mariupol.

    There seems to be a glimpse of the military situation facing Ukraine in this article. The veteran of the Aidar unit is quoted: " He said of their group of around 100 fighters, only 34 had returned, of the others, 15 had died and the rest were injured." Now for one unit to lose 66%of their fighters has to be considered some serious losses.

    I do not understand why the west is continuing to encourage Poroshenko in his fantasy that he is winning this war?

    [Aug 22, 2014] Four accused of painting Moscow building in Ukrainian colours face jail by Alec Luhn

    Looks more like Pussi riot provocation, act 2. Guardian serves as an amplifier of the action... From comments: There are billionaire backed front organisations and front media outlets who sponsor these activities and promote them in the media. This newspaper is part of a network that actually spreads this stuff."
    zorrooorroo -> Eric Moller, 22 August 2014 5:32pm
    Hooliganism .... A new word .

    ========

    simply wrong translation of Russian term into English - in Russia it is not anew word...it is the same tactics to uise mistranslation for political propaganda - like transalting Soviet as Russia (and thus equating exclusively ethnic Russians to soviet past, but exonerating Ukrainians, Georgians etc despite those were the same Soviets as Russian were) - all that for political reasons... "n - word" was nearly abolished in English language when political situation made it to depict wrong associations, but nobody is going to stop calling exclusively Russians as Soviets or Soviet Union as Russia - the most funny things happen when foreigners trying to accuse Russians in Soviet foreign policy start to say something like - well, Ukrainians remember what Russians did because of Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact - and funny is that they forget that those were not Russia or Russians that benefited from Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, but Ukraine and Ukrainians because all those Polish lands were given to Ukraine, not to Russia in USSR - and even today Lviv that Stalin took from Poland according to Molotov-Ribbentrop pact is a part of Ukraine, not Russia...

    yet, English language continue to identify exclusively Russians as Soviets - very convenient for non-Russians and for the West too in order to alienate all non-Russian ex-soviets (Georgia, Ukraine, etc.) from Russia...

    Linguistic propaganda - that how I call it.

    IdreamaPeacefulWorld, 22 August 2014 10:41pm

    I love the connection with the pussy riots.

    Please check this link and tell me if you would be happy for this to happen in your local museum and call it art!

    http://www.henrikaeshna.com/apps/blog/sex-orgy-in-a-museum-what-does

    AstheticTheory, 22 August 2014 11:50pm

    They probably calculated the cost of their legal case in the price they charged the front organisations for their 'protest services'.

    Bakerpembury, 22 August 2014 11:55pm

    It's sometimes said Pussy Riot was invented by the CIA as a drunken joke but " bare breasts" excited them so much they signed off the funding. I'm inclined to believe it.

    AstheticTheory -> Bakerpembury, 22 August 2014 11:59pm

    There are billionaire backed front organisations and front media outlets who sponsor these activities and promote them in the media. This newspaper is part of a network that actually spreads this stuff.

    koshenka, 23 August 2014 12:50am

    Pussy Riot are not many. Though I can understand why Tolokonnikova called those who did it heroes: after all, base jumping takes more bravery and skills than fucking in museum.

    koshenka, 23 August 2014 1:12am

    btw, have Pussy already released some new single? or, I don't know, some old one?

    [Aug 22, 2014] Ofcom should be looking again at Putin's TV news channel by Steve Bloomfield

    The pot calling the kettle black. Guardian presstitutes do not like competition ;-)
    April 24, 2014 | The Guardian
    doug88 -> Silliband, 25 April 2014 8:15am
    I would suggest that many of the criticisms in the article will ring true with a lot of people. This piece may have the opposite intended effect and end up acting as a advertisement piece for RT.

    For example, criticisms of:

    And I don't think that exploring conspiracy theories should be considered a negative point. Does anyone remember those crazy people who would tell you that the government is hacking our phones and recording our conversations?

    Taku2, 24 April 2014 6:49pm
    There definitely is a need for people in the West to have an alternative media view to the servile propaganda which we are being indoctrinated with by the BBC, much of our national media etc. RT presented us with that opportunity, probably initially, but it really has degenerated into doing pretty much what much of the media in the West has been doing; namely a mouthpiece for the government and the elite, except that RT is doing it for the Russian Government.

    The time will come when, it is not only our and their politicians who we should not trust, but also their and our media! The media in the West and the East does not, or is fast becoming unworthy of the respect of the listener, watcher and reader. How depressing.

    TGondii -> Taku2, 24 April 2014 6:52pm
    At the height of the cold war I used to listen to Radio Moscow. Not because it was unbiased, it lied obviously about what was happening in the USSR, but because it told me things about what were happening in the UK and the USA that our media failed to mention.
    huzar30 -> TGondii, 24 April 2014 6:57pm
    it told me things about what were happening in the UK and the USA that our media failed to mention.
    What, if anything, did you learn? Report
    TGondii -> huzar30, 24 April 2014 7:12pm
    Oh, let's see, all sorts about protests in the UK that never got reported here, British involvement in Cambodia supporting the Khmer Rouge, the World Court verdict against the US for mining Nicaraguan ports. That sort of thing. Factually true, spun for political effect of course, but simply not mentioned in our press at the time.
    Taku2 -> TGondii 24 April 2014 8:19pm

    I agree with you. RT and the media in the West, especially that which is owned by the elites, have a vested interest in concealing information and 'truths' which their controllers find inconvenient, and will tend to publicise information and 'truths' which their opponents are likely to find inconvenient.

    For the reader, listener and watcher to get near to the 'truth', he or she needs to glean it from diverse sources - RT, western media, Euro News, Al Jazeera, et al.

    The 'new' really needs to be announced with a warning: Let the listener beware, as 'new' can be harmful to the listener/reader's credibility.

    foolisholdman -> TGondii, 24 April 2014 10:40pm

    At the height of the cold war I used to listen to Radio Moscow. Not because it was unbiased, it lied obviously about what was happening in the USSR, but because it told me things about what were happening in the UK and the USA that our media failed to mention.

    Just so -- & the same is true now of RT and CNTV.

    PSmd -> Taku2, 25 April 2014 2:17pm

    I like watching RT. Sure it's biased, but it's always interesting to see competing biases, rather than media that is biased in chorus. It's a mouthpiece for pro-Russian bellicosity, but I remember a year ago, they were talking about break up of the USSR, and they said how Russia could have been kept with Belarus and Eastern Ukraine, quite telling now. Also, that only western Ukraine, Baltics and Georgia were the only bits that wanted to leave the USSR, again, an indicator of what Russia may make a play for (i.e. everything but those areas).

    They also seem to have many American guests, some from the Left but more from the libertarian Right, united against (US) militarisation and corporatisation.

    Al Jazeera is of a slightly higher standard, though, again, they cannot really bite the hand that feeds them either. Sky news, in Danny Dorling's words, seems to view Britain as the London office of an American corporation. It never fails to amaze me how local US news appears on there, and often public building shootings and eccentrics who drive pickup trucks chasing tornadoes.

    Taku2 -> PSmd, 25 April 2014 6:50pm

    I agree with you; particularly concerning 'comparing biases', as all the official media contains biases, inspite of their newly found qualification: "we cannot varify it." Once something is 'reported', the damage is done, whether or not it can be varified. Why report something which cannot be varified?

    As we watch the Russians, Americans and EU building up the Ukrainian crisis into a casus belli, it makes us fully realize how powerful and, if used irresponsibly and mischievously, dangerous the media can be. First comes the media war, which 'prepares' the people, and then come the blood letting

    Media manipulation and manipulation by the media has and is currently being used as a substitute for prudent and effective diplomacy. The media is more powerful than the politicians. Seems that we the people are fucked!

    TGondii, 24 April 2014 6:50pm

    I find it distasteful for a journalist to be asking for the banning of any TV station. If you don't like it, don't watch it. The Iranian Press TV was already removed by OfCom, and I don't think it should have. Anyone watching those channels can see their bias and adjust for that, but they also provide an alternative view. For example Press TV provided good coverage of the Bahrain protests that was entirely missing from Al Jazeera.
    Personally I see lots of bias in the BBC. Various university studies showed actual bias in the lead up to the Iraq invasion broadcasting far more pro-war items and interviews compared to pro-peace items, worse even than Sky TV. It's effectively a British government mouthpiece whatever British government is in power, as witnessed by it's very partial coverage of the Scottish independence debate. Saying that I don't think it should be banned.

    Aren't there books you should be burning, Steve?

    RoyRoger -> TGondii, 24 April 2014 7:10pm

    I find it distasteful for a journalist to be asking for the banning of any TV station.

    I agree. But, as you know, fascist regimes are keen to shot the messenger; literally.

    [Aug 22, 2014] Lži nαs jednou zničν všechny (Lie eventually will destroys us all )

    parlamentnilisty.cz

    The West from the very beginning skillfully dictated the way the world will look at the crisis in Ukraine. Moreover, old anti-Russian propaganda which created the image of "eternal evil" out of Russia helped greatly in this brainwashing. Putin does not know how to run a smart and clever "soft" propaganda campaign. And even prestigious news agencies are now amenable to "political activism", because there is no time for good journalism, says Czech media analyst Irena Rysankova.

    Many spoke and wrote about the information war, which accompanies the Ukrainian crisis from the very beginning - with demonstrations on the square, during the annexation of the Crimea, the war in the Donbass, the fall of the Malaysian flight MH17 - and still being played. What weapons and how successful the opponents are using in this war?

    For simplicity I will call one side Pro-European and the other Pro-Russian. "Pro-European" definitely has or used to have an advantage. Their method "injecting of news" and the wording of news articles was such that it was clear - there are consultants. Moreover, it was this side which began informing the public new event, such as about MH17, at all levels.

    "Pro-Russian" side was actually forces into defense from the very beginning and can only refute the new and new speculations about the events that none of the readers has the ability to reliably check. they also defined the vocabulary for description of events, while taking advantage of the fact that simple and less educated users of the media, and according to statistics those are the majority still perceive Russia as evil. More specifically, this is due to the invasion of the occupation forces in 1968 in Czechoslovakia and later in Afghanistan. Just Russia in the minds of many is still identified with the Soviet Union, and due to this is viewed from the same position, as during the cold war.

    In propaganda campaign of "Pro-European" forces that were active event before the key events, which served simply as a trigger, were creatively used all the tools for the management of public opinion. Every time they defined the agenda (agenda setting) that was imposed on the other side. Violent actions (fire on protesters on the Maidan, the plane crash, the shooting of the "convoy of refugees") were used to inject emotions into initially rational thinking about the conflict. this was they frame the information perception (framing) in terms of our pre-existing attitude to the parties. This way the polarization without regard to the facts is achieved: who is good and who is evil ("They only wanted to join the EU", "They wanted to stand in their way to freedom", "They shoot again on our children"). This way the coverage turned into the game of "good" and "bad" guys. Facts are never analyzed independently and impartially, because they always created the circumstances which prevented this. I think that in no way we can talk in information about Ukraine in terms of "people's struggle". On Maidan there were not "the people", but political activists and militants. As well as mercenaries. A naive public intellectuals who joined them, very quickly disappeared after the first blood was shed. Professionalism dictates that, rather, the event were orche4strated by a good consultants.

    Russia is losing and will continue to lose. Neither the Kremlin nor the Lubyanka, most likely, have not read the basic labor American Professor from Harvard Gina Sharpe, even though it was first published in 1973 under the title "the Politics of nonviolent action". His main book "From dictatorship to democracy" was released 20 years later in response to the popular uprising in Bangkok and was published in Russian in 1993, after the collapse of the USSR, when the candidate Yegor Gaidar as Prime Minister was rejected, Yeltsin came to power, the putschists made a move against him and civil war could well start, which would finally erased from the face of the earth "the evil Empire". Then it didn't work out, but still even in Russia color revolution scenario got pretty far. In Ukrainian the book "From dictatorship to democracy" was translated in 2004 in connection with the Orange revolution.

    After centuries of use "hard power" Russia does not understand how to use "soft power", does not speak of non-governmental diplomacy, you need it to support financial and organizational. Russia is not able to involve themselves in support of stars in pop culture, universities and charitable foundations, commercial companies and non-governmental organizations. Russia had and still has the major drawback - its reputation inherited from days of the USSR, although this is the country in which the majority of European countries exported goods or collaborated in large projects. Thanks to Russian gas we have light, warmth, we travel by car. But for many in Europe they are still "those Russians" of August 1968, the invaders, drunk from vodka. And many of the "new Russians" reinforce the Soviet stereotype. They defiantly proud of his wealth, and so manifestly disregard the law. So we should not be too surprised.

    Already in the winter and after the collapse of Viktor Yanukovych Czech blogosphere, or the field of "alternative" media, began to protest that information about the "Maidan" in the Czech Republic is manipulates and that the coverage is Pro-Ukrainian and selective. For example, we can talk about the suppression of information about the aggressiveness of protesters on the Maidan and the focus of the news on police brutality. Whether these claims to Czech media fair?

    Partly were and still are. But this is just a problem with the progress of information war, which Russia loses. There are several reasons for bias in the direction of Maidan then they new Kiev government. First, it is Maidan declarations about the liberation from the clutches of the Russian bear and the adoption of European rules, and secondly, the preponderance of professionally prepared Pro-Maidan information, which the media simply replayed. In such situation there is huge demand for news coverage and those who provide the news stream can correct the event or their view on the event as they wish. None of the current journalists want to be engaged in a truly independent "dirt-digging" investigative journalism. In fact, today it is impossible. Sooner or later you will need some research material, sooner or later you will need professional information back office. And then you have the embedded journalists.

    Moreover, today the media has no time to think: electronic online world is faster then anything else and the ability to sigh the issue to print at midnight is now a sweet dream about which was only can have nostalgia. I always joke that Karel Capek today would have had no chances at all. Publishing houses want cheap labor, that is, pipeline employees who toss news without too much thinking. Bloggers, as a rule, are either analysts themselves or those who are interested in in the subject for some reason and who understands it. That is, they are not objective. Even respected Agency now send to the frontline hired local people, about professional past and views of which they have little information. Thus, under the guise of top military journalism often we see the work of local journalists, which were hired by agencies.

    But lately, we can see some changes. Even mainstream media begin to think about the ethics of their work. Perhaps because some BBC reporters have already begun to publish information about Ukraine, which is not exactly fit "revolutionary enthusiasm" meme: the neofascists of the Right sector, corrupt oligarchs, unscrupulousness members of the government.

    In addition, Ukraine government go over the top in this information war. The manner in which President Poroshenko and the Prime Minister Yatsenyuk spread is now simply despicable. The Declaration about the elimination of the Russian convoy, not supported by any evidence, photographs or other materials, and other excesses of the last days show that the information war starts to get out of control, and the Ukrainian government propaganda machine is faltering. If the Ukrainian troops destroyed the Russian convoy, would there no single photo? why they did not show us the corpses, their military ID and uniforms? The serial number of weapons they have had? In is impossible not to notice complete incompetence here. I remember Saakashvili claimed that Russia used in Georgia ballistic missiles "Point". But the evidence of the damage they caused was very badly staged. But in the Czech Republic, Russia priori is guilty or, at least, suspicious. Our indignation about what "those Russians" (more precisely, the Brezhnev of the USSR) did, is passed from one generation after another - to those who do not remember the Prague spring of 1968, not to mention the previous years.

    Today it is difficult to determine who is right and who is lying. if the known liar lies again when he said that his opponent is lying. Can he at this time speak the truth? How to find out when the during war, of course, the first victim is truth?

    The problem arises when facts themselves incriminated the liars, as happened with the leaked photos downed Malaysian Boeing. Round, smoothly bent in the tin holes with a diameter of 30 mm give to those who are familiar with missiles "BUK", understanding that the plane was shot down but by the rocket but the cockpit was pulverized with guns of the fighters. There were two fighters. Today there are only to answer the question, whose to whom they belong and who gave them the order to shoot.

    Both Russia, calling for the unification of the "Russian world", and the EU and the US, referring to the European and Western values, according to some opinions, have polar sympathies: on the one hand citizens fighting the Donbas and the Crimea, and on the other, the rest of Ukraine, mainly Western. Which party do you think the more intensely promoted this propaganda? And with what implications? How to respond to the claim that Russian TV using hostile nationalist programs (for example show Dmitry Kiselev) sparked a civil war in the Donbass?

    How can we measure the level of sympathy? with "Applause meter" ? The number of casualties on each side? I don't think the war in the Donbass unleashed by some shows with anchors/talking heads known for their nationalism, such as Dugin or Kiselev on Russian side, or Poroshenko fifth channel and youths from the Right sector on the other side. Propaganda is directed to strengthening of the morale of the combatants. Soldiers who are poorly paid, need to know that they are fighting, and dying for just cause. If there are two warring parties, it is clear that each side produce corresponding stream of propaganda. Both sides try to justify the right to kill fighters from the other. On both sides historians, myth-makers and ideologues work on such a justification. But we must not forget that "the war for Ukraine" is actually an economic war. For displacement from the Ukrainian market of Russia and for a new economic world order. In other words this is struggle is for gas and oil, coal and steel. All those resources are the cornerstone of both the European Union and the Russian power. Ukraine (rather, consultants that support Ukrainian side) have better propaganda. As Europe and the United States have always been more receptive to the stories of the victims of Russian expansion. That means that from the very beginning the emotional advantage was on the side of smaller Ukraine abused by a larger, more powerful neighbor.

    Shooing down of MH17 is a new milestone in the crisis. What cant you say about this event? Who presented the more convincing evidence? Which side of the conflict behaved more honestly? And how to evaluate the Russian, Czech and Western media?

    - The basic rule of journalism is fair comment must be preceded by a message that will be facts, not guesswork. The statements that the plane was shot down by Pro-Russian militia, appeared too quickly. The culprit was appointed earlier than it was revealed what exactly was the plane that was shot down.. The name of the air traffic controller, who was the first to report that shot down the plane, now is hidden by the Ukrainian secret service (SBU). In this case, neither party behave honestly form the very beginning. The plane crashed in the area of military action, that is a given. Perhaps we ought to ask the question about what experts had learned from black boxes, and why suddenly everyone is silent about their content. And why around this story suddenly there was silence. Downed aircraft perfectly fit the image of the "bad Russians" and "criminal separatists". Czech, and most importantly, the Western media gladly sat down to write the comments.

    - With what media and PR reputation Russia coma out of the Ukrainian crisis? The scientist Veronica Suchava-Salminen wrote that the Arsenal of the Russian "soft power" virtually destroyed. Does Russia have a chance in the coming years to cause at least some sympathy in the Western public? Conversely, can we say that the Russian public opinion hostility to the US and the West increased to the maximum?

    The question is How important for Russia's is Western public opinion, or she stopped being interested in it long ago? Russia is able to pursue the classical "hard" propaganda. It never has the arsenal of soft power. Putin is an example of courage and determination, on horseback, fishing, tigers, nuclear submarine... "Soft" propaganda is not very well done by Russians. They don't have it, and most importantly, they have no such tradition, although Putin is advised by U.S. PR Agency. Soft power should be carried out systematically, carefully, with knowledge of psychology. Russian propaganda relies on force. The United States, despite all its problems, seem to the outside world to be the promised land. Russia, despite many successes, still looks cold dark Empire. But on the other hand, Russia Today is an excellent start. The broadcast goes 24 hours a day in English, Russian, Arabic and Spanish. Audience of those channels is over 1 billion people.

    Speaking about the Russian media, of course, impossible to suppose that in the country there is pluralism in the Western sense. What Putin has done over the years of his reign with the Russian media? What rules do they work, what to speak and write without problems, and what is hard, what can be harassment?

    Do you really mean there is pluralism in Western media? And if it exist can you explain in what particular form? The West has reached the stage when (as a Russia) you can write on the Internet to whatever you want, but that nobody reads. And if somebody read, they often do not believe and do not follow blindly. Russians may also, like you, travel freely, if they have the means. They can do business and become bankrupt, can go to Church, can watch satellite TV and use censored words on the Internet. So what? Is this a sign of citizen participation in the actual governance in the country, as implies by the word democracy? Active readers and strong, authoritarian media, which we knew 30 years ago, has been replaced by indifference on the one hand and cynicism of managed media with another. And in general, trolling and viral marketing changed the game and made everything suspicious. Today can be anywhere - and we, in Russia - successfully manipulate the opinion of anybody. Without the ability to defend themselves.

    Russian media world is a special subject. Yes, undoubtedly, for the most part it is not "anti-Putin", but, by the way, why would it be so? Putin after a drunken Yeltsin, the first defender of Russian pride, power, before his arrival decaying, country. Putin knows how to be creative with the media. And with those who intrude into his private life, he is able to quickly deal, which confirmed the tabloid edition of "Moskovsky Korrespondent", which was closed after publishing an article about the fact that Putin to marry a gymnast. Newspaper is unprofitable, said its owner. On the other hand, in addition to state television, Putin has created public television, albeit without concession fees, as nobody willing to pay them in Russia. But with a guarantee of independence. By the way, today Russia Today is one of the best news channels in the world, on the level of CNN and BBC. Russia is a country, which at a cursory glance it is difficult to understand. It is a mixture of almost anarchic democracy and the rule of hard, sometimes very hard hand. Democracy should not always mean freedom. Putin himself said about managed democracy, and this to some extent overlaps with the essay by Fareed Zakariya "Illiberal democracy", published in the journal Foreign Affairs in early 1998.

    Indeed, the Kremlin primarily controls the heads of state media and agencies. The head of the new Agency "Russia today", for example, was the former head of channel Russia Today. However, the Kremlin has no impact on diverse media stream that exist in Russia and never will. This, probably, is unfortunate. In old days at least it was clear that information published by any newspaper can't be one hundred percent false. Now there is no such assurance. Money, lies and manipulation become a global weapon of mass destruction of this civilization.

    It will destroy America, and Russia. No one will believe anyone. Yes, this is the situation we are already face.

    [Aug 22, 2014] The rebel leaders dropping out of the fight in eastern Ukraine by Glenn Kates for RFE/RL,

    The Guardian

    Mouflon41, 20 August 2014 3:57pm

    Also disappointed that the Guardian just reprints articles from the US propaganda organ Radio Free Europe instead of coming up with their own original material.

    Based in Prague and relocated in the last few years from the city centre due to threat of an Islamic terrorist attack on this US trophy target, I read that they are recruiting Russian speakers for the new propaganda war.

    enjoliliston Mouflon41, 20 August 2014 4:48pm

    Hello, thanks for your comment.

    This article appears on the Guardian's New East network, which partners with regional media outlets and specialists focussed on covering the post-Soviet world (you can read more about it here: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/09/post-soviet-states-new-east-network-guardian-welcome)

    Articles from our partners compliment original content from our correspondents.

    XorOrAndNot enjoliliston, 20 August 2014 4:54pm

    How much are they paying you to put out this propaganda garbage?

    monkie -> enjoliliston, 20 August 2014 5:57pm

    Hello, thanks for your comment.

    This article appears on the Guardian's New East network, which partners with regional media outlets and specialists focussed on covering the post-Soviet world (you can read more about it here: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/09/post-soviet-states-new-east-network-guardian-welcome)

    Articles from our partners compliment original content from our correspondents.


    im sorry but this is not a response you are copy/pasting and insulting a reader, a customer in case one forgets who the customer is when one prints US state propaganda verbatim as if it is news.
    you do know the function of the media in a democracy, and the difference between state propaganda and reporting?
    im sorry for the strident response but "you" are insulting our intelligence here. you might be pretending you do not know who RFE/LR is but that does not mean that (some) of your readers are stupid and have no knowledge of history.
    RFE is directly funded by the US government, it used to be funded by the cia until that news leaked and outrage swelled about that blatant propaganda, nobody took it seriously 40 years ago, yet now we have a supposedly left of centre liberal european based publication directly publishing US government funded propaganda as if it is news.

    how low has the guardian sunk?

    Mouflon41 enjoliliston, 20 August 2014 7:42pm

    So the Guardian is a partner of Radio Free Europe?

    Excellent strong post Monkie.

    Mouflon41 monkie, 20 August 2014 9:49pm

    I think we are on the same wavelength on this point. I have my reasons for being on the rebel side in this conflict but will still read and be satisfied with good journalism(such as Alec Luhn on this Ukraine subject) even if its not pro-rebel and this is not journalism of the standard I expect of the Guardian.

    I guess this is modern streamlined journalism. Rather then having "our man in Moscow", a permanent time served correspondent on a retainer, lets just re-publish the active measures of local USAID funded sell out junior journalists. Been buying the Guardian paper since 2005 and visiting the site since 2007 and this is one of the lowest points, down there with the nepotism from the "Max hits the road" debacle, worse really.

    monkie Mouflon41, 20 August 2014 10:35pm

    I think we are on the same wavelength on this point. I have my reasons for being on the rebel side in this conflict but will still read and be satisfied with good journalism(such as Alec Luhn on this Ukraine subject) even if its not pro-rebel and this is not journalism of the standard I expect of the Guardian.

    i think we are on a similar wavelength, i do not support the rebel side, if anything i support peace loving people all over the world, but i also understand realpolitik, and i hate hypocrisy and lies.

    and in all these counts it is the west that comes out smelling bad, my government and "free press" included.

    i have been reading this paper a bit longer, my parents used to buy it when i was a child, along with a variety of other papers.

    but i have stopped buying a while ago, i became increasingly angry paying for a newspaper which did not seem to be honestly representing its own ideals any more. like you say i do not mind reading good journalism, even if i do not agree with the journalists philosophy, it is poor journalism and propaganda i have a problem with. i concluded that the guardian did not wish to have my money any more and were attempting to sell their news to a different public, which is their choice of course.

    i agree that this is a low point in the guardians history, the lack of reporting on the plight of the people under attack by a coup-government in two major cities on the european mainland is shocking.

    monkie enjoliliston, 21 August 2014 11:10am

    Articles from our partners compliment original content from our correspondents.

    i would like to ask a follow up question, why is it that the guardian hides the fact that one if its partners is directly and solely funded by the US state, surely this is a breach of journalistic ethics?
    the series directly sponsored by corporations are clearly listed as such, surely state sponsored news should be clearly labelled as such?
    your new east network page lists partners but not RFE/RL, and when content from other partners is published you give the full name of the publication and not a abbreviation that masks the source to the uninitiated. this makes it difficult not to assume the editorial team is aware of the issue with this "partner" and is deliberately attempting to mislead its customers, if we are still considered customers around here and not content or assets to be exploited?

    i hope you understand why i have these questions.

    ,
    Mouflon41, 20 August 2014 4:05pm
    Also just found that the mini profiles of the rebel chiefs here are lifted almost word for word from a bigger article from the New York Times.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/20/world/europe/plenty-of-room-at-the-top-of-ukraines-fading-rebellion.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=LargeMediaHeadlineSum&module=photo-spot-region&region=photo-spot&WT.nav=photo-spot&_r=3&assetType=nyt_now

    *shakes head* Guardian whats become of you...

    monkie Mouflon41 20 August 2014 6:00pm
    Also just found that the mini profiles of the rebel chiefs here are lifted almost word for word from a bigger article from the New York Times. RFE, the source of this article is directly funded by the US state, not really surprising you would see this propaganda pop up in the NYT, sickening that you see it appear in this once august publication.

    Avenos, 20 August 2014 3:34pm

    This means - locals are still fighting. We need to ask locals what they want. To me it looks like they don't want Kiev rule. It does matter what locals wish and not Kiev or Moscow.

    Avenos, 20 August 2014 3:37pm

    If you will not listen locals -> Ukraine will fall apart as Yugoslavia did.

    GodelTheorem Avenos, 20 August 2014 3:43pm

    I thought it was a good thing, no? Fall of Yugoslavia was highly promoted and supported by "Empire of Good"

    Marqus. 20 August 2014 4:31pm

    To make it clear for somebody who doesn't understand the real situation in Ukraine civil war.

    Lack of knowledge of Ukrainian an Russian as well as the lack of true cover of events there make UK people mislead and don't understand correctly what's going on there.

    Imagine if Scotland declares the full independence from England and England sends troops, aircrafts etc there and begins to bombs Scott's for their wishes

    Maybe it helps you to make a right picture.

    To imagine blood, deaths etc. Reject it means that one day war might come to your home,

    [Aug 19, 2014] Moscow and Kiev may both need a deal over Ukraine soon by Shaun Walker

    Quote: "The Western media have proved for all to see that the Western media comprises either a collection of ignorant and incompetent fools or a whorehouse that sells war for money. "
    Aug 18, 2014 | The Guardian
    Milogrim, 18 August 2014 7:11pm
    Ukraine is becoming Libya on steroids. At least Libya has a future once their wars are over due to its oil deposits, while the Ukraine appears to be a broken and unsustainable corrupted state. Sad.
    Rialbynot -> Milogrim, 18 August 2014 7:39pm
    The colluding Western media, which includes Mr and Mrs Guardian, have finally got what they seem to have been wanting all along -- the ethnic cleansing of E. Ukraine.

    For supporters of ethnic and religious minorities around the world, the year 2014 has irrevocably exposed the phoney liberalism of the established MSM, including the Guardian.

    They are all fakes.

    They simulate liberalism while supporting the death brigades of fascistoid groups like Right Sector.
    We do not need this kind of media. Better to close it down.

    Hermius, 18 August 2014 7:39pm

    Russia to ask UN to make MH17 crash investigation report

    Russia will ask the UN Secretariat to brief the Security Council on the progress in the investigation of the MH17 crash in Ukraine, Russian Permanent Representative to the United Nations Vitaly Churkin said on Monday.

    "We will request that the Secretariat hold a briefing on progress in the implementation of [UN Security Council] Resolution 2166 [which requires an independent investigation into the cause of the accident]. A month has passed since the Malaysian liner was destroyed. Paragraph 13 of the resolution requires the secretary-general to provide the Security Council with investigation progress reports. We hope that this will happen already today," the diplomat said, responding to a question from ITAR-TASS.

    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/745569

    psygone, 18 August 2014 7:44pm

    ..Sunday's five-hour talks between the two countries' foreign ministers in Berlin, where they were joined by their French and German counterparts.

    The talks do not seem to have borne much fruit.

    Perhaps its time for Sec. of State Kerry to send in Asst. Sec. of State Victoria Nuland.

    btw, She recently received a promotion, bigger staff, and a nice pay increase/

    She'll arrive, slap these Foreign Ministers around and tell them to get their act together.

    Kinda reminds me of the last time Europeans were slaughtering each other -- over Bosnia.

    Sec. of State Warren Christopher who had just enough of all the killng sent in Richard Holbrooke.

    "miracle of miracles" -- 1-21 November 1995, the euros showed up in Dayton, Ohio ...."and there was peace"

    And the moral of the Story? Get a cease fire and make peace -- else we're sending Vickie.
    -----------

    ^_^

    Eklat1973 , 18 August 2014 7:55pm
    The Western media have proved for all to see that the Western media comprises either a collection of ignorant and incompetent fools or a whorehouse that sells war for money.

    The Western media fell in step with Washington and blamed the downed Malaysian airliner on Russia. No evidence was provided. In its place the media used constant repetition. Washington withheld the evidence that proved that Kiev was responsible. The media's purpose was not to tell the truth, but to demonize Russia.

    Now we have the media story of the armored Russian column that allegedly crossed into Ukraine and was destroyed by Ukraine's rag-tag forces that ISIS would eliminate in a few minutes. British reporters fabricated this story or were handed it by a CIA operative working to build a war narrative. The disreputable BBC hyped the story without investigating. The German media, including Die Welt, blared the story throughout Germany without concern at the absence of any evidence. Reuters news agency, also with no investigation, spread the story. Readers tell me that CNN has been broadcasting the fake story 24/7. Although I cannot stand to watch it, I suspect Fox "news" has also been riding this lame horse hard. Readers tell me that my former newspaper, The Wall Street Journal, which has fallen so low as to be unreadable, also spread the false story. I hope they are wrong. One hates to see the complete despoliation of one's former habitat.

    [Aug 18, 2014] M of A - Open Thread 2014-18

    Quote: "As for Shaun Walker...Shouldn't he forced to resign just as Judy Miller was forced out after the WMD fiasco...after all, his claims are an attempt to lead the country to war. Isn't that a crime? "

    Think about this for a minute: Poroshenko issues a statement saying Ukrainian troops destroyed a Russian convoy of armored vehicles on Thursday. If that's true, then it is an act of war by Russia.

    At the same time, he hasn't used the convoy incident to deny Russian humanitarian convoy from entering the country. Why?

    Yes, I know the Red Cross convoy is still at the border, but the fact is Poroshenko hasn't pointed to the destruction of invading Russian armored vehicles to defend his decision. In fact, he hasn't even brought it up. Why? If you were in his shoes, you'd cut off all relations with Moscow and close the borders AND DECLARE A STATE OF WAR. Wouldn't you?

    This just shows that the whole Russian convoy deal is a complete fabrication.
    These fu**ers rattle off so many lies, they can't even keep track of what they said a day earlier. It is truly pathetic.

    As for Shaun Walker...Shouldn't he forced to resign just as Judy Miller was forced out after the WMD fiasco...after all, his claims are an attempt to lead the country to war. Isn't that a crime?

    [Aug 17, 2014] Why is the Guardian publishing this provocative junk? by Paul Goble

    The latest in a series of quality Guardian Russophobia. It is clear that great powers will always finance nationalism in their rivals in order to weaken them, and if possible disintegrate them as happened with the USSR, Yugoslavia and other countries. This is old, Roman "divide and conquer" strategy. But formally the Guardian is left of the center publication which should be hostile to such classic imperialistic policies. The question arise why the USA State Department funded and Voice of America employed neocon should be allowed to incite separatism in Russia on Guardian pages with complete impunity. Why it should allow state propaganda dominate its pages? Should the Guardian name be now changed to "Izvestia on Thames"? Probably not as, in important areas, such as foreign policy, this is no longer British publication ;-)
    Aug 15, 2014 | The Guardian

    From Siberia to Kaliningrad: the fledgling independence movements gaining traction in Russia

    Moscow appears to have blocked efforts hold a march in favour of Siberian independence this weekend, but that doesn't mean the sentiment isn't spreading, writes Paul Goble

    SirLuciusOTrigger, 15 August 2014 7:15pm

    Paul Goble is an American analyst and former US foreign policy adviser

    Paul Moore -> SirLuciusOTrigger, 15 August 2014 8:35pm

    Does that make what he says untrue?

    SirLuciusOTrigger -> Paul Moore, 15 August 2014 8:52pm

    Does that make what he says untrue?

    He has not visited the locations to report. He is sitting in the USA, compiling material which suits the agenda he wishes to promote. Nobody has even verified who these "interviewees" are.

    The "New East Network" is compiled from information gathered by the Carnegie Foundation (that's not an accusation - but a fact of which they are proud).

    This isn't reporting. It's just some blogging by an American State official, which puts forward America's viewpoint. The Telegraph used to have someone like this too, named Michael Weiss. They had to get rid of him, because his insane accusations were too extreme even for the Telegraph. He's now the editor of another publication in the Guardian's New East Network.

    Nobul -> Paul Moore, 16 August 2014 5:48am

    It does. If you have followed his writings, you would have realized that he has been laying maggots in Russia for many years.

    fragglerokk -> Paul Moore, 16 August 2014 1:54pm

    yes, it makes him part of the wider 'on side' propaganda apparatus

    read this:

    Washington Has Placed The World On The Road To War

    its much nearer the truth.

    Anyway it is unlikely the US would start a war as its nuclear deterrent is far inferior to that of the Russians, the US haven't been looking after their old weapons and have invested in failed new technology, the $40billion missile system that doesn't work, another £100billion on a first line fighter that keeps falling out of the sky.

    Russia will wage economic war and finish the weakened dollar off an thats why the US forced EU into disastrous sanctions which will leave them weakened and vulnerable to the TPP which is encountering much resistance presently.

    SirLuciusOTrigger -> Grishnakh, 16 August 2014 2:28pm

    Your pal Goble works for Voice Of America. It's a government organisation which gets its funding directly from the CIA.

    Gil Matos-Sequν, 15 August 2014 7:23pm

    This article is totally over the top ridiculous!

    bobble07 -> Gil Matos-Sequν, 15 August 2014 10:28pm

    No it's the latest in a series of quality guardian russophobia

    monkie -> Gil Matos-Sequν, 16 August 2014 10:48am

    This article is totally over the top ridiculous!

    it has gone beyond the ridicules and is now in dangerous territory, it was bad enough when the guardian's reporting was merely biased, but well educated editors and journalists can not feign ignorance, what was once a nominally left of centre liberal publication seems firmly embedded with the US state department, it is bad enough to quote USAID funded "activists" and "experts" as if it is news, its another to let them lose in these pages without any editorial scrutiny.

    the facts about these people's background is only a mouseclick away yet the guardian just shreds its own principles and statuary claims without even a blush by giving them a unrestricted platform.

    a newspaper's function in a democracy is to inform readers and hold governments and organisations to account, it is not meant to function as a crude propaganda vehicle of the type we would of laughed out of the door during the cold war. even the CIA funded and staffed "radio free europe" pretended it was something other than it was, the guardian does not even seem to be trying any more.

    you would think real progressive and liberal journalists and editors would be too ashamed of themselves to associate with something so transparent, especially given the frequency and vigour with which staff rushes to judge its colleagues in other publications.

    Gil Matos-Sequν -> monkie, 16 August 2014 1:16pm

    They are even fabricating columns of military vehicles and a military convoy which there is no proof of and which have caused enormous confusion and trouble on the political front and even the financial front, since the German stock market fell markedly on the news.

    The Guardian is now a dangerous proponent of yellow journalism.

    Kaiama, 15 August 2014 7:40pm

    Paul Goble, a longtime specialist on ethnic and religious issues in Eurasia, currently prepares daily reports on developments in that region for his blog, Window on Eurasia. Paul has worked at the Central Intelligence Agency, the Foreign Broadcast Information Service, he served as Special Assistant for Soviet Nationalities and Special Advisor for Soviet Nationality and Baltic Affairs at the US Department of State, he was the director of research and director of communications and technology at Radio Liberty/Radio Free Europe, and the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

    He has taught at the University of Maryland, George Washington University, Georgetown University, the Institute of World Politics, the University of Tartu, and Audentes University in Tallinn.

    Trained at Miami University and the University of Chicago, he is the editor of seven volumes on ethnic and religious issues in. He currently lives in Staunton, Virginia, and can be reached via email at [email protected]

    Pure propaganda from the USA

    Kaiama -> Paul Moore , 15 August 2014 8:45pm

    In order to fully judge any article, one needs to appreciate the viewpoint and origins of the author. As the US isn't particularly friends with Russia right now, its really just shit-stirring by the US.

    It just tries to portray a divided society in Russia whereas the reality is that the current crisis has brought Russians much closer together.

    Robert Sandlin, 15 August 2014 9:32pm

    Now Russians you see what letting those Western NGO's into Russia in the 1990's has done.

    They've been busy building a 5th column to destroy Russia. Its going to take hard patriotic work to root them out.

    But if you want to save Russia you have to do it. Now with the Ukraine crisis the West is turning up the heat. Trying every weapon of Russophobia they have.

    They are scared that Putin will be successful in destroying the petrodollar and their control in the world. So they will do anything to stop that. And try to destroy Russia in doing it. You have to fight back.Control your 5th column. And turn the tables on them. There are separatist movements throughout the West. Start supporting them. If the West is busy fighting fires in their own countries they won't have the time to start fires in Russia.

    DonJuan, 15 August 2014 10:45pm

    Any informed person can only laugh at an article like this. But this is The Guardian. One day you find a brilliant analysis and the other something like this. God knows what's going on behind the scenes.

    Paul Moore, 15 August 2014 10:59pm

    Similar article 2 years ago about Kalingrad.

    Authorities fear separatism with a European face September 25, 2012 Olesya Gerasimenko, Kommersant-Vlast

    Kaliningrad is the most European of Russia's regions. After studying life in the isolated Russian exclave, Kommersant-Vlast reports that it is becoming increasingly dissatisfied with the policies of the federal government.

    http://rbth.com/articles/2012/09/25/authorities_fear_separatism_with_a_european_face_18537.html

    TrueUkrainian, 15 August 2014 11:11pm

    I think if you look closer at the background of these activists you will find in many cases connections to US-funded NGOs. These are the same organizations and same money that supported Maidan and their aims are crystal clear.

    This is not to say that there is not a genuine interest for power devolution locally, but after the putsch in Ukraine, all Russians I know don't look favorably at anyone who seeks to sow the chaos and weaken their country (you might be surprised, but some of them used to support Navalny).

    MichelleCamden, 16 August 2014 7:11am

    Paul Goble is an infamous USA neo-con propagandist. Why is the Guardian publishing this bollocks? The academic community in the USA regard Goble as a racist half-wit - someone not to be taken seriously.

    I can only assume the editor of the Guardian has been imbibing magic-mushroom tea for some considerable time.

    [Aug 16, 2014] New low for Guardian: Shawn Walker Drum up war of Ukraine with Russia with fake, misleading reporting

    Despicable pressitute Shaun Walker tries himself in the role of a Grand Provocateur ;-) First instance of war between Russian and Ukraine no more no less. Quote: "Thumbs up for Guardian. It does look like this is where Poroshenko found out about the Russian "invasion" from ". So Ukrainian President claims that he got information from Guardian and now Guardian reproduce this nonsense as a confirmed news story.
    Aug 15, 2014 The Guardian

    Ukraine president claims Russian vehicles that crossed border have been destroyed

    Reuben Black -> deniskoua , 16 August 2014 6:24am

    I read Ukrainian news, as well as Russian and English language news and I have a fairly well developed bullshit detector. Sources? BBC, Guardian, CNN, WSJ, NYT, Unian, Vesti.ua, gordonua, Vesti,ru, RIA, Slon, the list goes on. I spend far too much of my own time reading in any attempt to find out what's going on. Is it possible in truth? Not entirely, but one has to try. The only way to really find out would be to spend a considerable amount of time in the Donbass and talk to all sides, which to be honest would be a risky prospect.

    The biggest thing that stands out amongst all the sources is the tone of the argument they present.

    The worst thing that a journalist can do is go somewhere hoping or even expecting to find something specific. If you reach a specific conclusion before you've even lifted yourself up from your chair then there's no point going anywhere - the energy is wasted.

    Why? Because you end up with reporting like this very article.

    It's then that you get nitpicking and poking around in every little corner in the hope that you create the right innuendo. There's so much assumption, which is unhealthy because assumption is often proved to be incorrect.

    The problem with this is that good proper journalism isn't built on innuendo, it's rather more like a scientific paper in which a host of facts are to be presented accompanied by logically drawn conclusions based on those facts. If you don't know the answer to something, you try to find it out, you don't simply make stuff up.

    To highlight the plight of Ukrainian journalism in this environment, I'd like to remind you that Ukrainian Vesti had its offices ransacked a while back because the tone of its articles were not patriotic enough and it was considered not okay to present the other side of the story. After this wee event the articles came out toeing a much more official line and pretty much following these marvellous guidelines.

    Russia stole Crimea? You make it sound like a toy car or a set of Lego. The forces that occupied Crimea were, for the most part, already there. You do realise that there were already Russian military bases in the Crimea? Russia was permitted to have up to 25,000 troops on the territory.

    An arbitrary decision made in 1954 by Khrushchev sent a historical part of Russia into the territory of Ukraine. Then again he would never have imagined at the time that the USSR would fall apart. There has long been a history of discord between post soviet Ukraine and Crimea. All you need do is read up on the turmoil between the two entities. Most of the population of Crimea is Russian, around 60%. It's not really a great shock that they might lean more towards Russia then Ukraine, especially given the tumultuous history between Kiev and Crimea created largely by the meddling of the former in local politics even though it was supposed to be an autonomous republic.

    I agree that he should have come straight out and said that it was Russian soldiers, but it doesn't change the fact that the Crimea was taken without firing a shot and the Donbass has been in a state of war for some months now.

    Sending an armoured convoy across the border right under the nose of journalists would be simply moronic and would definitely credit the Russians with a little more intelligence than that.

    ZigiSamblak -> Reuben Black, 16 August 2014 6:39am

    You talk about the tone of the news being presented by the different sides? How about comparing the Russian media talk of "Ukrainian Nazi's" and covert CIA operations and what not with the reasonable reports in the Western media. That makes your whole argument sound pretty weak now, doesn't it?

    Mij Swerdna -> Alex Weber, 16 August 2014 6:52am

    Not exactly. It's more like a group think phenomenon. That's normal border patrol. Russia is also very concerned about mines in the path of the convoy so they might have done a bit of sight seeing. Unlike Ukraine and its western allies, Russia seems to be losing it's taste for deadly violence. Seeing what has been done to the civilians in Donetsk and Luhansk makes one realize that, yes, they would do something like that.

    Nobul -> ZigiSamblak, 16 August 2014 7:06am

    The Telegraph had just published a report last week interviewing the self declared nazis of the Azov battalion fighting for the Kiev junta, did you miss it?

    Reuben Black -> ZigiSamblak, 16 August 2014 7:20am

    It doesn't weaken my argument in the least, in fact. That rule applies to all sides. That's one particular aspect of the official Russian outlets that I find tiresome and overstated. The parts which I tend to take with a grain of salt and some groaning unless there's something concrete to convince me otherwise. Pravy Sektor this, Pravy Sektor that. Uh-huh.

    It's quite obvious that there is to some extent a Nazi presence in Ukraine (one can't simply walk past the Wolfsangel and think there's nothing Nazi about it. Why else would a group use that symbol after all?). One certainly doesn't need to stop to wonder about the leanings of an individual who sings the praises of a figure such as Stepan Bandera either as the leanings are obvious if you know anything about him. You do know something about him, right? Quick, go read some history.

    "Bandera and Shukhevych are heroes of Urkaine." Right.

    That's right up there in the conciliatory remarks department with the popular chant, "Kommunyaku/Moskalyaku na hilyaku."

    Should we talk about the war tax or perhaps the rewriting of history books? Getting attacked for presenting an undesirable point of view in one's own parliament seems a trifle dictatorial to me, what do you think?

    Perhaps we should compare Poroshenko's presidential campaign rhetoric with his post campaign rhetoric and actions and see where that leads our thinking?

    Svoboda's idea of filtration camps in the Donbass seemed particularly charming and didn't seem at all Nazi, I admit.

    The media being strictly controlled with 'suggestions' of what they should print does seem a touch on the dictatorial side. 'Unpatriotic' press outlets have run into problems in such an environment. That does compare somewhat to Nazi history. I'm just waiting for the book burning to start, or did I miss that already? Did you save me some marshmallows at least?
    There's every reason to at least suspect the CIA's hand in certain things especially in light of all the recent revelations regarding US foreign surveillance, or have you not been paying attention to those inconvenient parts in world events? You know, spying on Merkel, double agents in Germany, CIA representative getting kicked out of Germany.

    Where's Edward Snowden again?

    BlueBlueSkies -> deniskoua, 16 August 2014 11:50am

    How do you explain, that even in "Ukraine Nachrichten", what is published in Western Ukraine, meanwhile say something completely different than that you wrote?

    And Poroshenko saves money for the poor?

    If there was no Russia and no Putin, Ukraine wouldn't be free either. It is the prey of the US-government and the US industry magnates. The whole mess there had been put up especially for that purpose. PLUS the opportunity to disempower Russia.

    This is not an idea or an opinion of mine. It's something, the US government has WRITTEN down. You can find it and read it. Search for (Zbigniew) Brezezinski, even at Wikipedia you'll find a lot. He explicitely recommended the USA to use Ukrain as a gateway to Russia.

    Though me too never before had heard this name, he is a person of high influence. Obama said, he is one of the best and that he admires him. And don't think, he was only on stage in times ago. There are very new statements of him, approving what he said before.

    I think, it is EXTREMELY important to know and to understand this. Because it claryfies, what who's aim is. Nobody in Europe wants war. We, the people have to make head against it, if we want to have the tiniest chance to avoid war.

    The USA tycoons want war with all their might to earn even more money. With energy-industry in Ukraine, the weapon industry and at finally with energy pool of Russia. Putin is their natural enemy, because he finished their exploiting Russia without leaving any richness to the Russian people a bundle of years ago.

    You can find every word of these facts in the net.

    We have to know and we have to be very aware to SURVIVE. Please all you here inform yourself and make wise decisions.

    Reuben Black -> Peter Stephen Johnston, 16 August 2014 12:14pm

    You clearly seem to have missed the fact that I was addressing someone else's accusations, which makes me on topic. You simply missed the context. Here, let me help you out:

    You talk about the tone of the news being presented by the different sides? How about comparing the Russian media talk of "Ukrainian Nazi's" and covert CIA operations and what not with the reasonable reports in the Western media. That makes your whole argument sound pretty weak now, doesn't it?

    That's what I was responding to, hence the mention of the CIA. I'm fairly confident that Ukraine would have sorted itself out without the US' meddling. After all we only need to look at Iraq to what a fine job's been done in the past. Everything I mentioned in that response was about Ukraine. Please do try to pay attention. Perhaps you should do a little reading on Ukraine before commenting on relevance?

    Joseph Brant -> ChuChin Chow, 15 August 2014 10:24pm

    Yes, we must trust the Guardian, which saw so many things and forgot to take a single photo. And the NATO official, who knows so much but forgot to show any evidence whatsoever. And the US, which has never told the truth except by regrettable coincidence. And the rightwing-bots here on the Guardian, who are so savagely convinced that Russia=bad without a shred of evidence and argument. Aren't we so easily fooled?

    Just seize public office and public information with your backers of Gold, you rightwingers, and tell us all on that authority what we must believe for your benefit. Tell us all that anyone who doubts you or denies your fake foreign threats is a domestic threat. The formula from Aristotle's Politics will fool us every time.

    TheTruth77. 15 August 2014 7:42pm

    Repeat it here:

    The publication on the website Poroshenko conversation with British Prime Minister David Cameron, dated 14:22 Moscow time, it is reported that

    "the sides coordinated action to respond to the information on entering the territory of Ukraine of Russian military equipment, which clearly states the international journalists in particular, the newspaper "The Guardian". The President said that this information is true and confirmed as much of this equipment was destroyed by artillery Ukrainian night ".

    However, in the original version of the publication, a copy of which can be found in the cache, the search engine Google, no information about the convoy no.

    It is unclear for which reason, these harsh accusations were added to the report of a telephone conversation for more than three hours later.

    dion13 -> TheTruth77, 15 August 2014 7:45pm

    http://president.gov.ua/en/news/30998.html

    15.08.2014 14:22 - Press office of Ukraine President (Official website)

    TheTruth77 -> dion13, 15 August 2014 7:53pm

    Cache:

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:R4qn-Xtl5IoJ:www.president.gov.ua/ru/news/30998.html%3FPrintVersion+&cd=3&hl=ru&ct=clnk&gl=ru

    Site:

    www.president.gov.ua/ru/news/30998.html

    different text, same time 14:22, but google cache at 12:06

    Canajin, 15 August 2014 7:43pm

    Why no photos of destroyed APCs?

    This is typical of Kiev's claims about the conduct of the war.

    They only thing we know for sure is that Ukrainian right-wing paramilitaries are shelling Donetsk alongside the regular army.

    Watching the Syria coverage, I thought sending the army in to kill your own countrymen was a war crime.

    spume, 15 August 2014 7:44pm

    Did the combined might of the world media assembled near the Russia-Ukraine border manage to take a single photograph of the Russian APCs reported as crossing the border? The Guardian's stories carry no such photos - which seems a little odd as surely there should be hundreds of cameras there and story-hungry journos ready to take pictures of anything remotely exciting. And it's not like APCs are that fast moving - surely plenty of time to pull the iphone out a pocket and snap before they disappeared into the mist?

    Vladimir Kamensky, 15 August 2014 7:44pm

    May be this column is mean? Consumed column Lviv airmobile brigade Ukrainian Army

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oidlySgqW1A

    wotusaymait -> Vladimir Kamensky, 15 August 2014 8:10pm

    It's sad to see people meet their end this way.

    Then again, these boys from Kiev were about to help Poroshenko carry out his ethnic cleansing campaign against civilians in Donetsk and Luhansk.

    tanyushka -> Oleg2323, 16 August 2014 5:17am

    don't worry, it's completely irrelevant... the border between Ukraine & Russia is often a very blurred area & i wouldn't be surprised that military from both sides croses it a few yards on both directions for many silly reasons...

    what is relevant is that the number of civilian deaths has doubled during the last 2 weeks & you already know that all of them are what you like to call pro-Russians...

    what is relevant is that Kiev hasn't even got the excuse Israel has for shelling Gaza because we haven't sent any rockets against Ukranian civilians...

    very relevants are the more than 50 victims of the Odessa massacre, shot, burned to death, raped -- even a pregnant woman, the cleaning lady, her corpse artistically displayed to be ridiculed by the mob --, whose murders are being investigated by Ukraine's General Prosecutor, a member of Svoboda Party, not long ago called National Socialist Party... & not by accident they chose that name... of course this General Prosecutor decided the victims were murdered by Russian agents that came form nowhere with a mysterious poisonous gas... this is the same man that in a very quick investigation condemned Yanukovich & the Berkut for the Maidan victims, not worrying to investigate all those persons who were killed with shots fromt he Ukraine Hotel, at the moment the headquarters of the Right Sector...

    what is relevant is that Stenin, an awards winner Russian photo-journalist, was abducted by the Right Sector -- there are witnesses of this -- & has been missing for almost two weeks & nobody cares, while when a VICE News guy was punched by our guys you made a scandal of it...

    what is relevant is that Ukrainae has shelled Russian territory a numbe rof times, even killing one peasant, but The Guardian only mentioned the issue once in a small paragraph...

    what is relevant is that the next American president will be either Hillary Clinton, who scolded Obama for not being bloody enough in Syria, or Jeb Bush...

    all this is only to distract you of the Maysian airliner shot down... remember that affair? why is is that nobody is mentioning it again?

    ucasavi, 15 August 2014 7:45pm

    Thumbs up for Guardian. It does look like this is where Prorshenko found out about the Russian "invasion" from

    Exodus20 -> Exodus20, 15 August 2014 8:02pm

    "Beware of the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry, [who] infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How will I know? For this I have done. And I am Julius Caesar."

    drums of war ... whip ... fervor ... blood ... narrow the mind ... pitch ... blood boils ... hate ... mind closed ... seizing the rights ... fear ... blinded by patriotism.

    mauman, 15 August 2014 7:46pm

    but as the BBC accidentally tweeted, and then quickly deleted

    Daniel Sandford
    ‏@BBCDanielS@StandByUkraine @RobertMackey Eyewitnesses - @RolandOliphant and @shaunwalker7-

    did not exactly say it was "the Russian army"

    Journos are backtracking

    https://twitter.com/BBCDanielS/status/500317128663511040

    Robert Sandlin, 15 August 2014 7:49pm

    As Mauman posted on another thread:

    do we have journalist backtracking. Daniel Sanford seems to have removed his tweet.
    @BBCDanielS @RobertMackey Funny way of trying to get out of it, with reports of him sending Russian army into Luhansk & Ukraine engaging it.

    Daniel SandfordVerified account
    ‏@BBCDanielS
    @StandByUkraine @RobertMackey Eyewitnesses - @RolandOliphant and @shaunwalker7- did not exactly say it was "the Russian army"

    It appears the truth is leaking out of a false-flag operation.

    villainesse -> AbFalsoQuodLibet, 16 August 2014 1:05pm

    I thought the Yugoslavian breakup was a full-blown war with full NATO/US/Euro particiapation. Cultural regions of Yugoslavia were ultimately allowed to separate into bloody bits with NATO's blessing then.

    Is Ukraine so different? Or must NATO insist on taking it all?

    As the child of a Retired U.S. Navy Officer, I am sick and embarrassed of our empire's sneaky coups d'etat, color revolutions and "humanitarian" wars for oil and the profits of slavish labor, stolen land and water.

    abba2002 , 15 August 2014 7:53pm

    "...the information was trustworthy because the majority of those machines ... had been eliminated by the Ukrainian artillery at night..."

    In other words, "the machines were real, because we've destroyed them".(?!)

    Any other proof, other than "I said so"?
    Oh, I forgot... the sneaky Russians have recovered all of them by dawn...

    nvs2014 -> abba2002, 15 August 2014 7:58pm

    honestly Poroshenko is the biggest clown of them all

    centerline, 15 August 2014 7:55pm

    A pity the media does not report on the US interests in the region.
    Joe Biden's son and others at Burisma Holdings.

    From Oil & Gas Journal
    Basin-centered gas evaluated in Dnieper-Donets basin, Donbas foldbelt, Ukraine
    http://www.ogj.com/articles/print/volume-96/issue-47/in-this-issue/general-interest/basin-centered-gas-evaluated-in-dnieper-donets-basin-donbas-foldbelt-ukraine.html

    Castorium, 15 August 2014 7:56pm

    http://president.gov.ua/en/news/30998.html

    Russian armored fighting vehicles to the territory of Ukraine that has been clearly witnessed by international journalists, particularly of the "Guardian" newspaper.

    So, journalists are witnesses of Russian vehicles in ukraine territory but don't shoot not even one photo? And then the Ukranian Artillery shoots a convoy and don't check the target to cross-reference with the journalists report? The kind of thing that would be a proof of Putin schemes? Dear lord this is hilarious...

    dion13 -> Castorium, 15 August 2014 8:08pm

    Let alone Cameron summoning Russian ambassador over Ukraine 'incursion'

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-28805605

    Vlad Tatarsky, 15 August 2014 7:57pm

    Bravo!!

    Brilliant response to the multiple requests to provide at least some footages of the Russian troops invading Ukraine following the humanitarian convoy:

    no footages guys - it was destroyed, nothing left !

    Looks like Poroshenko has just saved the faces of many NATO and EU figures engaged in repeating such bullshit by that simple cute statement!

    I am just eager to hear similar ideas about what has happened to flight recorders of MH17 and air control recordings of Dnepropetrovsk, as well as to evidences in the case of Maidan' snipers and Odessa' fire!

    abba2002, 15 August 2014 7:57pm

    The Ukrainian military couldn't destroy the couple of rebels' AIV's - and they have successfully "destroyed" much better trained Russian armored column?..

    ..and the bridge I am about to sell you...

    NormVan -> abba2002, 16 August 2014 7:18am

    No mention of Russian casualties or captured Russian troops. Will they return the bodies to Russia?

    Its desperation politics. Sooner or later these Oligarch will have to face some tough questions about the shooting down of the Malaysian Plane.

    bobble07, 15 August 2014 8:03pm

    "There was no immediate proof, and it was impossible to establish"

    Why not just talk straight and say "there is no proof"

    DrKropotkin -> bobble07, 15 August 2014 8:20pm

    Exactly, no proof but the Guardian gives us articles with war instigating headlines. These articles could have sparked a serious incident or even a full (actual) war. The editors need to reassess what they are printing before they end up with a lot of blood on their hands.

    KarlNaylor75, 15 August 2014 8:03pm

    "The president informed [Cameron] that the information was trustworthy because the majority of those machines [Russian military vehicles] had been eliminated by the Ukrainian artillery at night," a statement from Poroshenko's office read.

    If Russia invades, then Kiev would stand alone as the Western powers not NATO is going to realtically come to Ukraine's assistance. The serious consequences would be an intensified trade war and, potentially, an economically ruinous cut off of the gas supply to the west.

    The west cannot be dragged into a conflict with Russia because of brinkmanship on both sides and because Kiev has continually tried to foist a military solution upon eastern Ukraine instead of pursuing a federal solution to the crisis.

    This scenario would tip the already fragile economies of the Eurozone into a full scale economic collapse with consequences that would last for decades. It would also spur on the quest for energy diversification in the Eastern Mediterranean and energy routes from Qatar via Syria and Turkey.

    The Ukrainian nationalist government in Kiev played a dangerous game in attempting to foist a military solution to the uprising in eastern Ukraine and the use of grad rockets and shells against cities and town, including Donetsk. It may have been emboldened by the West's attitude to Israel's action in Gaza.

    True, Russia has cynically exploited the weakness in that strategy and the Ukraine's use of grad rockets to kill civilians in cities in the east to put forward the idea of an emergency humanitarian intervention in a shadowy carbon copy of Western strategy with regards the crisis in northern Iraq.

    The EU shares the blame for having failed earlier to use diplomacy to put pressure on Kiev to concede greater federal powers on the east so as to to detach Russian speaking citizens from Russian backed proxy forces because now Russian speaking citizens in Donetsk face a bloody military endgame.

    KarlNaylor75 -> John Christian Lψnningdal, 15 August 2014 9:04pm

    If Kiev had been interested in avoiding the escalation of the situation in the east of Ukraine it should not have committed itself to a military solution there. It did and the consequences could well be a Russian invasion or some sort of 'ground incursion'.

    The crisis reached this point because Kiev rejected greater regional autonomy for the east and treated the Donetsk Republic as one huge scam, a region filled with 'bandits' and 'terrorists'. That only lead to a backlash and rise of nationalist tensions.

    There was no attempt to push for a referendum after Poroshenko was elected on regional autonomy for the Donbass while the Lviv region,a centre for Ukrainian nationalism, had already been granted it in February 2014. Instead Poroshenko was intent on war and force.

    Anatol Lieven spelt out the consequences back in June in The New York Review of Book,

    If Ukrainian forces continue their assault on rebel strongholds in eastern Ukraine, then only three things can happen, separately or in sequence: they will be beaten back with the help of Russian weaponry, which has so far been used to shoot down three Ukrainian helicopters at Sloviansk; they will retake one or two towns, after which Russia will reinforce other towns with lightly disguised Russian special forces, making their capture much harder; and if Ukrainian forces resort to heavy weaponry to blast the rebels from their positions, Russia will invade. The only question then will be where the Russian army will stop: whether Moscow would be content to hold the Donbas, as it previously held South Ossetia and Abkhazia as quasi-independent statelets formally still part of Georgia, or whether it would go on to seize half of Ukraine.

    eviscerate -> KarlNaylor75, 15 August 2014 9:07pm

    KarlNaylor75, Your prescribed scenario would tip the Eurozone into a full scale economic collapse !

    In my humble opinion this is exactly what the USofA is about to accomplish by using the Ukraine to put a wedge into the Eurozone's and Russia's commercial relationship. It is obvious that even Merkel is dancing to Washingtons tunes instead of looking after the welfare of her people and trade with Russia !

    KarlNaylor75 -> ArundelXVI, 15 August 2014 9:10pm

    There really isn't "brinkmanship on both sides". In that, this is completely a problem and headache of Putin's making, he's rattling sabers and the sides of his pram. He feels ignored and wants to feel important.

    No, there is now brinkmanship on both sides. For background reading on how this crisis reached such levels, have a read of the Anatol Lieven article I linked to above as a sane antidote to the sort of rabid and unenlightening propaganda this conflict generates on both sides.

    Bosula -> KarlNaylor75, 15 August 2014 11:16pm

    Good response.

    It is time that the Western media report on what is happening with privately funded militias driving over to East Ukraine to terrorise East Ukraine.

    This is a bizarre situation and requires more in depth analysis.

    Danish5666 -> ArundelXVI, 16 August 2014 7:47am

    "this is completely a problem and headache of Putin's making, he's rattling sabers and the sides of his pram".

    Yes let us forget EU and the US involvement in creating this Ukrainian crisis, like the "investment" of 5 billion dollars according to estimate by US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland all the while she had cookies for the demonstrators on Maidan, and not to mention her infamous phone conversation spelling out who would be in the new government.
    The political crisis in Ukraine reached a boiling point Feb. 20-22 as the demonstrations turned increasingly violent and the death toll among police and protesters mounted. On Feb. 21, three European foreign ministers reached an agreement with Yanukovych in which he agreed to limit his powers and accept early elections to vote him out of office. He also pulled back the police, as Vice President Joe Biden had demanded.

    At that point, however, well-trained neo-Nazi militias – organized in brigades of 100 – took the offensive, seizing government buildings and forcing Yanukovych's officials to flee for their lives. Instead of trying to enforce the Feb. 21 agreement, which would have safeguarded Ukraine's constitutional process, the U.S. State Department cheered the unlawful ouster of Yanukovych and quickly recognized the coup regime as "legitimate."

    The Feb. 22 coup set in motion a train of other events as "ethnically pure" Ukrainians in the west were pitted against ethnic Russians in the east and south. The crisis grew bloodier as the ethnic Russians resisted what they regarded as an illegitimate regime in Kiev.

    Meanwhile, the U.S. mainstream press – always enthralled to the neocons – pushed a false narrative about Ukraine that put nearly all the blame on Putin, though he clearly was reacting to provocations instigated by the West, not the other way around.

    Insight47 -> ArundelXVI, 16 August 2014 10:45am

    Well Ukrainian MPs did call for the "extermination of Russian presence in Ukraine" when they passed race laws against ethnic Russian speaking people who are their fellow citizen. So it could be called a very brutal form of "brinkmanship". When was Russia supposed to act - when you set up concentration camps as in WW2?

    priceus, 15 August 2014 8:03pm

    If Russia had wanted to invade Ukraine Putin would have just done it.

    It looks like provocation to me, the script was that Russia was supposed to invade Ukraine and get bogged down in a war but Putin saw the bait and refused to take a bite.

    Russians know that this battle is about who will control Russia's vast territory and resources into the distant future. The West would like a Yeltsin, they would also like a softie at the UN security council to rubber stamp all their acts of aggression around the world.

    Jeffkopite, 15 August 2014 8:08pm

    Quite incredible that no member of the Ukrainian army had a mobile phone, camera or any other video gear to record their incredible victory. Even more incredible that the British PM made a comment on this given his silence on his mates or should that be donators from Israel. I have no idea what is going on but I would not believe the BS we are being fed at the moment all geared to take the heat off what is happening in Israel and the fact that ISIS or IS or whoever they are were on our side when they were fighting in Syria. We never learn do we

    ID075732 -> Jeffkopite, 15 August 2014 8:15pm

    Very surprising, but we've had stranger reports masquerading as news.
    If this proves true it will be a game changer:
    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/08/11/24695/

    rodney9, 15 August 2014 8:11pm

    The first confirmed military engagement between the two adversaries since the crisis blew up in the spring.

    Confirmed? If a reprise or recapitulation is allowed. After the accounts of the "mini-invasion" yesterday that left many unexplained questions. Two articles have appeared today in the Guardian firstly Russia denies military vehicles entered Ukraine

    in which it was reported that the Kremlin had said it was a guard unit which was there to prevent 'infiltration' of its territory and they denied any movement across the border. So now we knew, it was a column of a FSB mobile border guard team that was on patrol and never left the border zone. Most of us thought this had put the thing to bed, as the only reporting and footage by the two journalists was always taken from the side of the Russian border. But then unexpectedly, we get this Ukraine says it has destroyed Russian vehicles that entered territory
    Poroshenko in a phone call to David Cameron informed him that the information from the two journalists Walker and Oliphant was trustworthy and said the majority of this border guard team had been tracked and eliminated by Ukrainian artillery at night. So a further conflicting account that harks back to yesterdays 'mini-invasion' story.

    Because the story reared its head again, and wouldn't die, the Russians have issued an even stronger dιmenti No Russian troops crossed into Ukraine – FSB

    Will it be enough? Clearly not. What worries me is that when we think of the downing of MH-17 this claim and counter claim is really quiet disturbing and also that our politicians are so badly advised from Kiev and play catch up (we remember that Cameron vouched for the authenticity of the fake You Tube video before MPs in the House of Commons) and once again they condemn Russia without having any true evidence before them.

    The hallucinatory madness of the politicians is evident particularly with Poroshenko. That western politicians so easily enter into this believing something that never happened is very very frightening. Thus the "mini-invasion" took place and there was even fighting and Russian vehicles that entered/never entered the Ukraine were subsequently destroyed /not destroyed. Thankfully people are increasingly demanding evidence these days and the lack of it is always very revealing. Can we expect a story on tunnels into Ukraine soon?

    [Aug 15, 2014] The Ukraine, Corrupted Journalism, and the Atlanticist Faith - The Unz Review

    Quote: "The truth behind the fate of the Malaysian airliner, I thought from the moment that I heard about it, would be politically determined. Its black boxes are in London. In NATO hands?"
    The European Union is not (anymore) guided by politicians with a grasp of history, a sober assessment of global reality, or simple common sense connected with the long term interests of what they are guiding. If any more evidence was needed, it has certainly been supplied by the sanctions they have agreed on last week aimed at punishing Russia.

    One way to fathom their foolishness is to start with the media, since whatever understanding or concern these politicians may have personally they must be seen to be doing the right thing, which is taken care of by TV and newspapers.

    In much of the European Union the general understanding of global reality since the horrible fate of the people on board the Malaysian Airliner comes from mainstream newspapers and TV which have copied the approach of Anglo-American mainstream media, and have presented 'news' in which insinuation and vilification substitute for proper reporting. Respected publications, like the Financial Times or the once respected NRC Handelsblad of the Netherlands for which I worked sixteen years as East Asia Correspondent, not only joined in with this corrupted journalism but helped guide it to mad conclusions. The punditry and editorials that have grown out of this have gone further than anything among earlier examples of sustained media hysteria stoked for political purposes that I can remember. The most flagrant example I have come across, an anti-Putin leader in the (July 26) Economist Magazine, had the tone of Shakespeare's Henry V exhorting his troops before the battle of Agincourt as he invaded France.

    One should keep in mind that there are no European-wide newspapers or publications to sustain a European public sphere, in the sense of a means for politically interested Europeans to ponder and debate with each other big international developments. Because those interested in world affairs usually read the international edition of the New York Times or the Financial Times, questions and answers on geopolitical matters are routinely shaped or strongly influenced by what editors in New York and London have determined as being important. Thinking that may deviate significantly as can now be found in Der Spiegel, the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Die Zeit and Handelsblatt, does not travel across German borders. Hence we do not see anything like a European opinion evolving on global affairs, even when these have a direct impact on the interests of the European Union itself.

    The Dutch population was rudely shaken out of a general complacency with respect to world events that could affect it, through the death of 193 fellow nationals (along with a 105 people of other nationalities) in the downed plane, and its media were hasty in following the American-initiated finger-pointing at Moscow. Explanations that did not in some way involve culpability of the Russian president seemed to be out of bounds. This was at odds right away with statements of a sober Dutch prime minister, who was under considerable pressure to join the fingerpointing but who insisted on waiting for a thorough examination of what precisely had happened.

    The TV news programs I saw in the days immediately afterwards had invited, among other anti–Russian expositors, American neocon-linked talking heads to do the disclosing to a puzzled and truly shaken up audience. A Dutch foreign policy specialist explained that the foreign minister or his deputy could not go to the site of the crash (as Malaysian officials did) to recover the remains of Dutch citizens, because that would amount to an implicit recognition of diplomatic status for the "separatists". When the European Union en bloc recognizes a regime that has come into existence through an American initiated coup d'ιtat, you are diplomatically stuck with it.

    The inhabitants and anti-Kiev fighters at the crash site were portrayed, with images from youtube, as uncooperative criminals, which for many viewers amounted to a confirmation of their guilt. This changed when later reports from actual journalists showed shocked and deeply concerned villagers, but the discrepancy was not explained, and earlier assumptions of villainy did not make way for any objective analysis of why these people might be fighting at all. Tendentious twitter and youtube 'news' had become the basis for official Dutch indignation with the East Ukrainians, and a general opinion arose that something had to be set straight, which was, again in general opinion, accomplished by a grand nationally televised reception of the human remains (released through Malaysian mediation) in a dignified sober martial ceremony.

    Nothing that I have seen or read even intimated that the Ukraine crisis – which led to coup and civil war – was created by neoconservatives and a few R2P ("Responsibility to Protect") fanatics in the State Department and the White House, apparently given a free hand by President Obama. The Dutch media also appeared unaware that the catastrophe was immediately turned into a political football for White House and State Department purposes. The likelihood that Putin was right when he said that the catastrophe would not have happened if his insistence on a cease-fire had been accepted, was not entertained.

    As it was, Kiev broke the cease-fire – on the 10th of June – in its civil war against Russian speaking East Ukrainians who do not wish to be governed by a collection of thugs, progeny of Ukrainian nazis, and oligarchs enamored of the IMF and the European Union. The supposed 'rebels' have been responding to the beginnings of ethnic cleansing operations (systematic terror bombing and atrocities – 30 or more Ukrainians burned alive) committed by Kiev forces, of which little or nothing has penetrated into European news reports.

    It is unlikely that the American NGOs, which by official admission spent 5 billion dollars in political destabilization efforts prior to the February putsch in Kiev, have suddenly disappeared from the Ukraine, or that America's military advisors and specialized troops have sat idly by as Kiev's military and militias mapped their civil war strategy; after all, the new thugs are as a regime on financial life-support provided by Washington, the European Union and IMF. What we know is that Washington is encouraging the ongoing killing in the civil war it helped trigger.

    But Washington has constantly had the winning hand in a propaganda war against, entirely contrary to what mainstream media would have us believe, an essentially unwilling opponent. Waves of propaganda come from Washington and are made to fit assumptions of a Putin, driven and assisted by a nationalism heightened by the loss of the Soviet empire, who is trying to expand the Russian Federation up to the borders of that defunct empire. The more adventurous punditry, infected by neocon fever, has Russia threatening to envelop the West. Hence Europeans are made to believe that Putin refuses diplomacy, while he has been urging this all along. Hence prevailing propaganda has had the effect that not Washington's but Putin's actions are seen as dangerous and extreme. Anyone with a personal story that places Putin or Russia in a bad light must move right now; Dutch editors seem insatiable at the moment.

    There is no doubt that the frequently referred to Moscow propaganda exists. But there are ways for serious journalists to weigh competing propaganda and discern how much veracity or lies and bullshit they contain. Within my field of vision this has only taken place a bit in Germany. For the rest we must piece political reality together relying on the now more than ever indispensable American websites hospitable to whistleblowers and old-fashioned investigative journalism, which especially since the onset of the 'war on terrorism' and the Iraq invasion have formed a steady form of samizdat publishing.

    In the Netherlands almost anything that comes from the State Department is taken at face value. America's history, since the demise of the Soviet Union, of truly breathtaking lies: on Panama, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Venezuela, Libya and North Korea; its record of overthrown governments; its black-op and false flag operations; and its stealthily garrisoning of the planet with some thousand military bases, is conveniently left out of consideration. The near hysteria throughout a week following the downed airliner prevented people with some knowledge of relevant history from opening their mouths. Job security in the current world of journalism is quite shaky, and going against the tide would be almost akin to siding with the devil, as it would damage one's journalistic 'credibility'.

    What strikes an older generation of serious journalists as questionable about the mainstream media's credibility is editorial indifference to potential clues that would undermine or destroy the official story line; a story line that has already permeated popular culture as is evident in throwaway remarks embellishing book and film reviews along with much else. In the Netherlands the official story is already carved in stone, which is to be expected when it is repeated ten-thousand times. It cannot be discounted, of course, but it is based on not a shred of evidence.

    The presence of two Ukrainian fighter planes near the Malaysian airliner on Russian radar would be a potential clue I would be very interested in if I were investigating either as journalist or member of the investigation team that the Netherlands officially leads. This appeared to be corroborated by a BBC Report with eyewitness accounts from the ground by villagers who clearly saw another plane, a fighter, close to the airliner, near the time of its crash, and heard explosions coming from the sky. This report has recently drawn attention because it was removed from the BBC's archive. I would want to talk with Michael Bociurkiw, one of the first inspectors from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) to reach the crash site who spent more than a week examining the wreckage and has described on CBC World News two or three "really pock-marked" pieces of fuselage. "It almost looks like machine gun fire; very, very strong machine gun fire that has left these unique marks that we haven't seen anywhere else."

    I would certainly also want to have a look at the allegedly confiscated radar and voice records of the Kiev Air Control Tower to understand why the Malaysian pilot veered off course and rapidly descended shortly before his plane crashed, and find out whether foreign air controllers in Kiev were indeed sent packing immediately after the crash. Like the "Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity", I would certainly urge the American authorities with access to satellite images to show the evidence they claim to have of BUK missile batteries in 'rebel' hands as well as of Russian involvement, and ask them why they have not done so already. Until now Washington has acted like a driver who refuses a breathalyzer test. Since intelligence officials have leaked to some American newspapers their lesser certainty about the American certainties as brought to the world by the Secretary of State, my curiosity would be unrelenting.

    To place European media loyalty to Washington in the Ukraine case as well as the slavish conduct of European politicians in perspective, we must know about and understand Atlanticism. It is a European faith. It has not given rise to an official doctrine, of course, but it functions like one. It is well summed up by the Dutch slogan at the time of the Iraq invasion: "zonder Amerika gaat het niet" (without the United States [things] [it] won't work). Needless to say, the Cold War gave birth to Atlanticism. Ironically, it gained strength as the threat from the Soviet Union became less persuasive for increasing numbers among European political elites. That probably was a matter of generational change: the farther away from World War II, the less European governments remembered what it means to have an independent foreign policy on global-sized issues. Current heads of government of the European Union are unfamiliar with practical strategic deliberations. Routine thought on international relations and global politics is deeply entrenched in Cold War epistemology.

    This inevitably also informs 'responsible' editorial policies. Atlanticism is now a terrible affliction for Europe: it fosters historical amnesia, willful blindness and dangerously misconceived political anger. But it thrives on a mixture of lingering unquestioned Cold War era certainties about protection, Cold War loyalties embedded in popular culture, sheer European ignorance, and an understandable reluctance to concede that one has even for a little bit been brainwashed. Washington can do outrageous things while leaving Atlanticism intact because of everyone's forgetfulness, which the media do little or nothing to cure. I know Dutch people who have become disgusted with the villification of Putin, but the idea that in the context of Ukraine the fingerpointing should be toward Washington is well-nigh unacceptable. Hence, Dutch publications, along with many others in Europe, cannot bring themselves to place the Ukraine crisis in proper perspective by acknowledging that Washington started it all, and that Washington rather than Putin has the key to its solution. It would impel a renunciation of Atlanticism.

    Atlanticism derives much of its strength through NATO, its institutional embodiment. The reason for NATO's existence, which disappeard with the demise of the Soviet Union, has been largely forgotten. Formed in 1949, it was based on the idea that transatlantic cooperation for security and defense had become necessary after World War II in the face of a communism, orchestrated by Moscow, intent on taking over the entire planet. Much less talked about was European internal distrust, as the Europeans set off on their first moves towards economic integration. NATO constituted a kind of American guarantee that no power in Europe would ever try to dominate the others.

    NATO has for some time now been a liability for the European Union, as it prevents development of concerted European foreign and defense policies, and has forced the member states to become instruments serving American militarism. It is also a moral liability because the governments participating in the 'coalition of the willing' have had to sell the lie to their citizens that European soldiers dying in Iraq and Afghanistan have been a necessary sacrifice to keep Europe safe from terrorists. Governments that have supplied troops to areas occupied by the United States have generally done this with considerable reluctance, earning the reproach from a succession of American officials that Europeans do too little for the collective purpose of defending democracy and freedom.

    As is the mark of an ideology, Atlanticism is ahistorical. As horse medicine against the torment of fundamental political ambiguity it supplies its own history: one that may be rewritten by American mainstream media as they assist in spreading the word from Washington.

    There could hardly be a better demonstration of this than the Dutch experience at the moment. In conversations these past three weeks I have encountered genuine surprise when reminding friends that the Cold War ended through diplomacy with a deal made on Malta between Gorbachev and the elder Bush in December 1989, in which James Baker got Gorbachev to accept the reunification of Germany and withdrawal of Warsaw Pact troops with a promise that NATO would not be extended even one inch to the East. Gorbachev pledged not to use force in Eastern Europe where the Russians had some 350,000 troops in East Germany alone, in return for Bush's promise that Washington would not take advantage of a Soviet withdrawal from Eastern Europe. Bill Clinton reneged on those American promises when, for purely electoral reasons, he boasted about an enlargement of NATO and in 1999 made the Czech Republic and Hungary full members. Ten years later another nine countries became members, at which point the number of NATO countries was double the number during the Cold War. The famous American specialist on Russia, Ambassador George Kennan, originator of Cold War containment policy, called Clinton's move "the most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-cold-war era."

    Historical ignorance abetted by Atlanticism is poignantly on display in the contention that the ultimate proof in the case against Vladimir Putin is his invasion of Crimea. Again, political reality here was created by America's mainstream media. There was no invasion, as the Russian sailors and soldiers were already there since it is home to the 'warm water' Black Sea base for the Russian navy. Crimea has been a part of Russia for as long as the United States has existed. In 1954 Khrushchev, who himself came from the Ukraine, gave it to the Ukrainian Socialist Republic, which came down to moving a region to a different province, since Russia and Ukraine still belonged to the same country. The Russian speaking Crimean population was happy enough, as it voted in a referendum first for independence from the Kiev regime that resulted from the coup d'ιtat, and subsequently for reunification with Russia.

    Those who maintain that Putin had no right to do such a thing are unaware of another strand of history in which the United States has been moving (Star Wars) missile defense systems ever closer to Russian borders, supposedly to intercept hostile missiles from Iran, which do not exist. Sanctimonious talk about territorial integrity and sovereignty makes no sense under these circumstances, and coming from a Washington that has done away with the concept of sovereignty in its own foreign policy it is downright ludicrous.

    A detestable Atlanticist move was the exclusion of Putin from the meetings and other events connected with the commemoration of the Normandy landings, for the first time in 17 years. The G8 became the G7 as a result. Amnesia and ignorance have made the Dutch blind to a history that directly concerned them, since the Soviet Union took the heart out of the Nazi war machine (that occupied the Netherlands) at a cost of incomparable and unimaginable numbers of military dead; without that there would not have been a Normandy invasion.

    Not so long ago, the complete military disasters of Iraq and Afghanistan appeared to be moving NATO to a point where its inevitable demise could not to be too far off. But the Ukraine crisis and Putin's decisiveness in preventing the Crimea with its Russian Navy base from possibly falling into the hands of the American-owned alliance, has been a godsend to this earlier faltering institution.

    NATO leadership has already been moving troops to strengthen their presence in the Baltic states, sending missiles and attack aircraft to Poland and Lithuania, and since the downing of the Malaysian airliner it has been preparing further military moves that may turn into dangerous provocations of Russia. It has become clear that the Polish foreign minister together with the Baltic countries, none of which partook in NATO when its reason for being could still be defended, have become a strong driving force behind it. A mood of mobilization has spread in the past week. The ventriloquist dummies Anders Fogh Rasmussen and Jaap de Hoop Scheffer can be relied upon to take to TV screens inveighing against NATO member-state backsliding. Rasmussen, the current Secretary General, declared on August 7 in Kiev that NATO's "support for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine is unwavering" and that he is looking to strengthen partnership with the country at the Alliance's summit in Wales in September. That partnership is already strong, so he said, "and in response to Russia's aggression, NATO is working even more closely with Ukraine to reform its armed forces and defense institutions."

    In the meantime, in the American Congress 23 Senate Republicans have sponsored legislation, the "Russian Aggression Prevention Act", which is meant to allow Washington to make the Ukraine a non-NATO ally and could set the stage for a direct military conflict with Russia. We will probably have to wait until after America's midterm elections to see what will become of it, but it already helps provide a political excuse for those in Washington who want to take next steps in the Ukraine.

    In September last year Putin helped Obama by making it possible for him to stop a bombing campaign against Syria pushed by the neocons, and had also helped in defusing the nuclear dispute with Iran, another neocon project. This led to a neocon commitment to break the Putin-Obama link. It is hardly a secret that the neoconservatives desire the overthrow of Putin and eventual dismemberment of the Russian Federation. Less known in Europe is the existence of numerous NGOs at work in Russia, which will help them with this. Vladimir Putin could strike now or soon, to preempt NATO and the American Congress, by taking Eastern Ukraine, something he probably should have done right after the Crimean referendum. That would, of course, be proof of his evil intentions in European editorial eyes.

    In the light of all this, one of the most fateful questions to ask in current global affairs is: what has to happen for Europeans to wake up to the fact that Washington is playing with fire and has ceased being the protector they counted on, and is instead now endangering their security? Will the moment come when it becomes clear that the Ukraine crisis is, most of all, about placing Star Wars missile batteries along an extensive stretch of Russian border, which gives Washington – in the insane lingo of nuclear strategists – 'first strike' capacity?

    It is beginning to sink in among older Europeans that the United States has enemies who are not Europe's enemies because it needs them for domestic political reasons; to keep an economically hugely important war industry going and to test by shorthand the political bona fides of contenders for public office. But while using rogue states and terrorists as targets for 'just wars' has never been convincing, Putin's Russia as demonized by a militaristic NATO could help prolong the transatlantic status quo. The truth behind the fate of the Malaysian airliner, I thought from the moment that I heard about it, would be politically determined. Its black boxes are in London. In NATO hands?

    Other hindrances to an awakening remain huge; financialization and neoliberal policies have produced an intimate transatlantic entwining of plutocratic interests. Together with the Atlanticist faith these have helped stymie the political development of the European Union, and with that Europe's ability to proceed with independent political decisions. Since Tony Blair, Great Britain has been in Washington's pocket, and since Nicolas Sarkozy one can say more or less the same of France.

    That leaves Germany. Angela Merkel was clearly unhappy with the sanctions, but in the end went along because she wants to remain on the good side of the American president, and the United States as the conqueror in World War II does still have leverage through a variety of agreements. Germany's foreign minister, Frank-Walter Steinmeier, quoted in newspapers and appearing on TV, repudiated the sanctions and points at Iraq and Libya as examples of the results brought by escalation and ultimatums, yet he too swings round and in the end goes along with them.

    Der Spiegel is one of the German publications that offer hope. One of its columnists, Jakob Augstein, attacks the "sleepwalkers" who have agreed to sanctions, and censures his colleagues' finger-pointing at Moscow. Gabor Steingart, who publishes Handelsblatt, inveighs against the "American tendency to verbal and then to military escalation, the isolation, demonization, and attacking of enemies" and concludes that also German journalism

    "has switched from level-headed to agitated in a matter of weeks. The spectrum of opinions has been narrowed to the field of vision of a sniper scope."

    There must be more journalists in other parts of Europe who say things like this, but their voices do not carry through the din of vilification.

    History is being made, once again. What may well determine Europe's fate is that also outside the defenders of the Atlanticist faith, decent Europeans cannot bring themselves to believe in the dysfunction and utter irresponsibility of the American state.

    Karel van Wolferen is a Dutch journalist and retired professor at the University of Amsterdam. Since 1969, he has published over twenty books on public policy issues, which have been translated into eleven languages and sold over a million copies worldwide. As a foreign correspondent for NRC Handelsblad , one of Holland's leading newspapers, he received the highest Dutch award for journalism, and over the years his articles have appeared in The New York Times , The Washington Post , The New Republic , The National Interest , Le Monde , and numerous other newspapers and magazines.

    rod1963, August 14, 2014 at 7:16 pm GMT

    Hepp

    Whether or not such a agreement it exists, it's not wise to push a nuclear armed nation and one that holds the economic fate of the EU in it's hands, into a corner. Then to make matters worse, toppling a regime right next to Putin's with a bunch of shadowy NGO's that are front groups for the USG.

    That wasn't going to be well received by Putin and he rebuked us by taking back the Crimea, not that it was Ukraine's to begin with despite what a bunch of sleazy Americans from the Hamptons say.

    Bill Blizzard and his Men, August 14, 2014 at 7:36 pm GMT

    @rod1963

    It comes down to whether or not one thinks that the Russian People have a right to defend themselves againt the mass murderers Susan Rice and Samantha Powers. I'd say it is mighty obvious that the Russian People do.

    Samantha Powers is very close personally to the Havard Economists whose economic warfare against the Russian People during the 1990s caused a massive demographic collapse of the Russian Population during the Clinton Era. How many Russians are missing from the Russian Population in 2014?..

    The ones that died directly from the billionaire Oligarchs gang rape of Russia and the Russian infants who were never born as a consequence of Clinton Democratic Party Economic Warfare. Is Genocide too strong a word?

    [Aug 12, 2014] Whipping up War hysteria one headline at a time: Guardian propaganda war in headlines

    A very valuable case study in demoniszation. Look how sophoiisticated propaganda injects emotions and pollute coverage with specific agenda. They do not need any facts. Look at the subject lines and how creatiivly they were constructed to demonize confederates and by extention smeare Russia, who is supporting them. See the topics covered (or more correctly not covered) and compare them with Why the keep us for imbeciles: 21 question that MSM would never raise or try to answer. Nivce example of cretion of artifical reality. After it's thier main task... Coverage basically stopped after August 9. It would be intereting to know why? Are new irrefutable facts are found that make continuation of propaganda Blitzkrieg dangerious

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      30 Jul 2014: Transport Workers Union national secretary says Abbott government should insist on planes being rerouted
      10 comments

      MH17: Abbott says Australia is unlikely to follow tougher US and EU sanctions

      30 Jul 2014: Prime minister says his priority is recovering bodies from the crash site as the European Union and the US increase sanctions against Russia

      Ukraine rebel chief Igor Bezler threatens to execute interviewer

      Igor Bezler, in green fatigues and without his walrus moustache, is at a briefing of policemen in Gorlovka. 29 Jul 2014: Nicknamed the Demon, leader said to be behind downing of MH17 ends rare interview after exploding into a rage and shouting: 'Don't think I won't shoot you'

      Is there a future for Malaysia Airlines after flights MH370 and MH17?

      29 Jul 2014: Karl West: Airlines often rebrand after a crash – repainting livery, tweaking logos or even changing their names. But after the loss of two of its planes, it will not be easy for Malaysia Airlines to survive

      191 comments

      MH17 victim's father calls on Ukrainian rebels to allow bodies to be repatriated - video

      MH17 victim's father calls on Ukrainian rebels to allow bodies to be repatriated - video Video (53 sec), 29 Jul 2014: The father of Liam Sweeney who died when flight MH17 crashed in eastern Ukraine says he wants his son's body returned home

      Ukraine: stronger Russian sanctions sought

      Malcolm Rifkind 29 Jul 2014: Malcolm Rifkind condemns 'useless' asset freezes as western leaders push for new EU trade restrictions with key sectors

      771 comments

      MH17: Abbott and police frustrated over lack of access to plane crash site

      29 Jul 2014: For the second day unarmed Australian and Dutch police contingent forced to turn around due to shelling and gunfire

      Telegraph to continue publishing Russian propaganda supplement

      29 Jul 2014: Chinese wall exists between commercial and editorial divisions

      32 comments

      Morning Mail: children killed in Gaza; MH17 delays; work for the dole

      Palestinians inspect the destroyed wall of Shifa hospital after an Israeli air strike, in Gaza, in the northern Gaza Strip. 28 Jul 2014: Guardian Australia's morning news briefing from around the web


      Stronger western sanctions on Russia likely within 48 hours

      Schiphol airport 28 Jul 2014: European and US resolve hardens as a result of Putin's suspected role in the shooting down of MH17 over Ukraine

      1336 comments

      US will follow EU in likely escalation of Russia sanctions, says White House

      28 Jul 2014: Announcement of impending measures follows conference call between Obama and leaders of UK, France, Italy and Germany
      804 comments

      Flight MH17: international monitors 'sick and tired' of not being able to reach crash site - video

      Rebels guard a convoy of OSCE monitors in Shakhtarsk in eastern Ukraine Video (1min 47sec), 28 Jul 2014: International monitors working in eastern Ukraine express their frustration after being denied access to the crash site of flight MH17 for a second day

      New EU sanctions against Russia could be applied within days, No 10 signals

      28 Jul 2014: Expectation of further sanctions comes as MoD announces 1,350 British troops are in Poland to take part in Nato exercise
      1536 comments

      MH17: Dutch and Australian police stranded due to fighting near crash site

      28 Jul 2014: Police and forensic teams forced to stop in Shakhtarsk, around 20 miles from the fields where the aircraft was downed

      Flight MH17: victims' remains might not all be found, AFP warns

      andrew colvin 28 Jul 2014: Intense fighting between pro-Russia rebels and Ukrainian forces has reduced the chance of a successful recovery
      252 comments

      Satellite images released by US 'show Russian rocket fire into Ukraine'

      27 Jul 2014: State Department document appears to show blast marks and craters and US says artillery for separatists has crossed border into Ukraine
      2454 comments

      The energy-efficient way to punish Putin – and protect the planet

      27 Jul 2014: Chris Huhne: For once Europe's greens and securocrats can join forces – by reducing the EU's dependence on imports of Russian gas
      359 comments

      MH370 families offer to counsel bereaved relatives of MH17 victims

      Malaysia Airlines flight attendant MH17 MH370 27 Jul 2014: Remains of those killed not expected to be returned to Malaysia for some time as forensic testing in Netherlands continues

      MH17: how Storyful's 'social sleuthing' helped verify evidence

      27 Jul 2014: Ben Cardew: Stories such as the shooting down of the Malaysia Airlines plane show the importance of checking Twitter and YouTube content

      MH17: Dutch and Australian investigators postpone mission due to fighting - video

      Dutch and Australian policemen in Donetsk Video (1min 41sec), 27 Jul 2014: A Dutch-led international group of 49 investigators have abandoned their plans on Sunday to visit the crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17

      MH17: Dutch and Australian experts forced to delay mission due to fighting

      A woman takes a photograph of wreckage at the crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 27 Jul 2014: Netherlands-led group of 49 investigators that will attempt to recover bodies and examine site in eastern Ukraine delayed

      MH17: Australia to send police but no military to crash site

      27 Jul 2014: Angus Houston says contingent of armed and unarmed police 'well-placed' to gain access early next week

      Nick Clegg says Russia should not host World Cup 2018

      27 Jul 2014: Fifa has ruled out calls for boycott after the shooting down of MH17, insisting the tournament could be 'a force for good'

      1168 comments

      Yes, Britain can afford to defy Tsar Vladimir Putin

      27 Jul 2014: Nick Cohen: At last there may be justice for Alexander Litvinenko, but it has taken a downed passenger jet to make us see that Russia does not own Britain
      742 comments

      Britain is open for business, but is it still the right policy?

      David Cameron and Boris Johnson 27 Jul 2014: The shooting down of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 has thrown a spotlight on the influence of Russian oligarchs. Now other areas of laissez-faire policies are being examined, from football clubs to party funding

      95 comments

      EU sends advisers to help Ukraine bring law and order to rebel areas

      26 Jul 2014: Kremlin accuses Brussels of believing in 'fairytales' as more Russians face travel ban and asset freeze
      1706 comments

      MH17: Australia and Netherlands wait on Kiev to ratify police missions

      Members of the Ukrainian State Emergency Service search for bodies near the crash site. 26 Jul 2014: Push to allow international police teams into wreckage site waits for Ukrainian parliament to give the green light, despite government having no control over the area

      The 20 photographs of the week

      Ranger and elephant Gallery (20 pictures), 26 Jul 2014: The aftermath of the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, the conflict in Gaza and Israel, the Commonwealth Games and a flying carpet – the best photography in news, culture, nature and sport from around the world this week

      MH17: Ukraine plans special sitting to approve deal for Australian forces

      26 Jul 2014: Ukraine says political turmoil will not keep it from agreeing to Australian police and defence personnel securing the crash site

      MH17: Australia and Netherlands join renewed push to secure crash site

      A piece of debris at the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17. 25 Jul 2014: Australian police sent to London anticipating access to crash site, while locals are allegedly looting items from wreckage

      EU expands Russian oligarch sanctions blacklist in wake of MH17 crash

      25 Jul 2014: Measures against Moscow looking likely after shooting down of plane, though deep divisions remain among 28 member states

      3439 comments

      Russians in London: 'It's official policy now to hate us'

      25 Jul 2014: Those living in capital have noticed backlash since the downing of flight MH17, and feel UK media is blaming all Russians

      Australia sends 100 more police for MH17 mission, as rhetoric softens

      Tony Abbott and AFP commissioner Tony Negus in Canberra on Friday. 25 Jul 2014: Police may be armed and backed up by defence personnel, but PM stresses their only brief is to bring bodies home

      MH17: Australia ready to send police to secure crash site

      25 Jul 2014: Tony Abbott says 90 police officers are ready to be deployed to eastern Ukraine site where Malaysia Airlines plane was downed

      More journalists detained in Ukraine while reporting on MH17 tragedy

      25 Jul 2014: Reporters held by each side in the conflict

      42 comments

      To mock President Putin's pride and test his paranoia is folly

      US President Barack Obama 25 Jul 2014: Simon Jenkins: The downing of flight MH17 was clearly an accident. This tragedy should not be used as an excuse to punish Russia
      1604 comments

      MH17: the Netherlands to take responsibility for crash investigation - video

      Julie Bishop and Frans Timmermans at a joint press conference Video (42 sec), 25 Jul 2014: In a joint press conference the foreign ministers of the Netherlands and Australia announced that the Netherlands would take responsibility for the investigation into the crash of MH17. Australia's foreign minister, Julie Bishop, said the move would allow the investigation to begin 'in earnest'

      MH17 site: Obama and Abbott agree on push for access as more wreckage found

      25 Jul 2014: US president promises to work closely with Australia set up 'full, unimpeded and transparent' international investigation

      MH17: Abbott's admirable response should change his prime ministership

      bruge haigh tony abbott piece 25 Jul 2014: Bruce Haigh: There is nothing manufactured for electoral advantage in how Tony Abbott is handling the MH17 crisis. He should apply his instinctive compassion to domestic politics, too
      517 comments

      Morning Mail: Israel strikes Gaza school; Air Algιrie flight crashes

      A Palestinian man cries after bringing a child, wounded in an Israeli strike on a compound housing a UN school in Beit Hanoun, to a hospital in Beit Lahiya. 24 Jul 2014: Guardian Australia's morning news briefing from around the web

      MH17 crash: sanctions against Russia are illegal, ambassador claims

      24 Jul 2014: Moscow insists documents that show Russians armed the separatists who shot down Malaysia Airlines plane are forged

      2123 comments

      MH17: victims' relatives can help one another in their bereavement

      Bodies Of MH17 Victims Arrive In Eindhoven, Netherlands 24 Jul 2014: Jim Swire: As I learned from losing my daughter in Lockerbie, a support group formed of victims' relatives can be a help in a crisis
      41 comments

      Remembering the HIV/Aids researchers and activists lost on MH17

      Guardian Professional, 24 Jul 2014: As victims remains arrive in the Netherlands, Matthew Jenkin examines why their loss is not just a personal tragedy but a professional one

      4 comments

      Fred returns to Shakhtar Donetsk having stayed away after MH17 disaster

      24 Jul 2014: Midfielder Fred, who refused to return to Ukraine after the MH17 disaster, has now arrived back with Shakhtar Donetsk

      If you're avoiding air travel after MH17 and more, let statistics be your guide

      jumbo jet airplane 24 Jul 2014: James Ball: You've undoubtedly heard that you're more likely to get hit by lightning or die in a car wreck. But is that really true?
      555 comments

      Australia has federal police ready to enter Ukraine and secure MH17 site

      24 Jul 2014: Prime minister has sent 50 officers to London and is prepared to send them to Ukraine
      750 comments

      MH17 crash site: Australian foreign minister pushes for access

      24 Jul 2014: Julie Bishop says negotiations are under way amid reports Australian police and troops may be deployed to area

      MH17: Ukraine separatist commander 'admits' rebels had Buk missile system

      Alexander Khodakovsky 23 Jul 2014: Alexander Khodakovsky reportedly told news agency rebels may have received Buk from Russia, but claims he was misquoted

      Morning Mail: MH17 and Gaza latest; Taiwan plane crash

      23 Jul 2014: Guardian Australia's morning news briefing from around the web

      MH17: Bodies arrive in Holland as Ukrainian rebel 'admits' missile system – as it happened

      23 Jul 2014: Forty coffins aboard two transport planes arrive at Eindhoven air base in the Netherlands as rebels shoot down two Ukrainian fighter jets near to crash site
      3781 comments

      Calls for Tory MP to stand down as trade envoy over Russian business links

      Charles Hendry 23 Jul 2014: Cameron's advisor Charles Hendry heads body promoting Russo-British trade as MPs urger stronger sanctions

      Netherlands mourns as bodies of MH17 plane crash victims are flown home

      23 Jul 2014: Dutch royals and premier Mark Rutte join relatives at Eindhoven airport to receive 40 coffins arriving from Ukraine disaster site

      Europe must learn to deal with Moscow without US backing

      23 Jul 2014: Mary Dejevsky: In the new multipolar world, with the US sometimes on the sidelines, EU unity is essential for its approach to Russia
      592 comments

      The Guardian view on sanctions against Russia

      Vladimir Putin attend in Russian Security Council meeting 23 Jul 2014: Editorial: After the shooting down of the Malaysian airliner, sanctions should be shaped to give President Putin a chance to change his policies
      673 comments

      Northern Ireland's lessons for Ukraine

      Dutch military men carry coffins contain 23 Jul 2014: Letters: If a link can be proved between Putin's government and the MH17 crime, let him be called as an accessory

      Setting the agenda in coverage of Gaza and MH17

      23 Jul 2014: Letters: Far more space was devoted to the plane disaster than to Gaza. The BBC does not give a full and fair account of the conflict with Israel

      Graphic content: when photographs of carnage are too upsetting to publish

      MH17 passengers' belongings 23 Jul 2014: The onslaught in Gaza and the MH17 crash scene in Ukraine have generated thousands of images, many of which show the gruesome reality of the violence. How does Roger Tooth, the Guardian's head of photography, decide whether or not to use such images?
      • Warning: this article includes graphic images some readers may find disturbing

      183 comments

      Bodies of MH17 victims arrive in the Netherlands on a day of mourning - video

      Bodies carried by Australian military as they arrive in Eindhoven Video (1min 05sec), 23 Jul 2014: Dignitaries watch as military transport planes bring bodies of the victims of the MH17 disaster to Eindhoven as the country holds a national day of mourning

      MH17: don't judge Dutch people's grief after this unspeakable crime

      23 Jul 2014: Laura Klompenhouwer: Dutch people have been through the mill after 193 of our compatriots were shot down. Silence seems the right response
      678 comments

      Rebels shoot down two Ukrainian fighter jets days after downing of MH17

      MH17 wreckage 23 Jul 2014: Ukrainian military spokesman says planes were brought down about 16 miles from site of Malaysia Airlines crash

      MH17: Dutch mayor wants Vladimir Putin's daughter Maria deported

      23 Jul 2014: Pieter Broertjes called for 29-year-old to be expelled from the Netherlands in wake of plane disaster but later apologised

      Photo highlights of the day

      A circus dog performs in costume during a free public show to protest Mexico City's ban on circus animals 23 Jul 2014: The Guardian's photo editors bring you a daily round up from the world of photography - today including the Costa Concordia being towed away, MH17 repatriations, the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow, and a Mexican protesting dog

      Parents of three children killed on MH17 living in 'a hell beyond hell'

      Evie, Mo and Otis Maslin 23 Jul 2014: Anthony Maslin and Marite Norris, parents of Mo, Evie and Otis, who were killed along with grandfather Nick Norris, release statement saying their 'pain is intense and relentless'

      Journalists covering the Ukraine crisis suffer intimidation

      23 Jul 2014: Detentions and raids make life dangerous for reporters

      53 comments

      MH17: relatives in the Netherlands await victims' bodies – video

      Floral tributes at Schiphol airport for Malaysia Airlines Flight MH-17 Video (1min 35sec), 23 Jul 2014: Military aircraft prepare to fly the first bodies retrieved from Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 to Eindhoven

      MH17: Rebels likely shot down plane 'by mistake'

      A pro-Russian rebel touches the MH17 wreckage at the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, near the village of Hrabove, eastern Ukraine, Tuesday, July 22, 2014. 23 Jul 2014: Senior US officials said intelligence supports the theory that rebels shot down MH17 "by mistake," but that there is "no evidence of direct Russian government involvement"
      1147 comments

      Australia's Tony Abbott criticises search for MH17 bodies as 'unprofessional' – video

      Tony Abbott MH17 press conference Video (56 sec), 23 Jul 2014: The Australian prime minister says trying to determine the number of bodies retrieved from the site of the MH17 crash has been difficult

      MH17: BBC veteran supports Sky News reporter over his 'error of judgment'

      23 Jul 2014: Don't shoot the messenger, he pleads

      22 comments

      MH17: grim task ahead for DNA experts as they sift remains to identify bodies

      Flowers mh17 23 Jul 2014: DNA analysis should allow investigators to put a name to victims so they can be repatriated

      MH17: Bill Clinton urges resolve at Aids conference in face of plane disaster – video

      Bill Clinton Video (1min 40sec), 23 Jul 2014: Former US president Bill Clinton has told delegates at a Melbourne Aids conference not to weaken their resolve following the downing of flight MH17 over Ukraine

      MH17: Bill Clinton praises Julie Bishop for securing UN resolution

      23 Jul 2014: Former US president says he was proud to be in Australia at time of foreign minister's UN speech on disaster

      MH17: governor general Peter Cosgrove to receive bodies in Netherlands

      Peter Cosgrove and Tony Abbott 23 Jul 2014: Joins air chief in charge of 'Operation Bring Them Home', as PM says it is unclear how many bodies are still at the site

      MH17: US intelligence says Russia 'created conditions' for plane disaster

      22 Jul 2014: US officials stop short of blaming crash directly on Moscow and say separatists likely shot down plane by accident
      1899 comments

      US intelligence: rebels likely shot down MH17 'by mistake' – as it happened

      22 Jul 2014: EU foreign ministers to weigh new sanctions against Russia
      3997 comments

      Flight MH17: identification begins after bodies from crash site arrive in Kharkiv

      A Malaysian air crash investigator inspecting the crash debris near Grabovo 22 Jul 2014: Interpol says it has begun preliminary work on remains, which are to be flown to the Netherlands this week

      Morning Mail: MH17 bodies arrive in Ukraine; international flights to Israel suspended

      22 Jul 2014: Guardian Australia's morning news briefing from around the web

      EU announces further sanctions on Russia after downing of MH17

      22 Jul 2014: Proposals will not be applied immediately as Putin urges rebels to cooperate with investigators for the first time

      Why did so many people share graphic images of MH17 crash site on social media?

      A man inspects debris at the main crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 22 Jul 2014: Horrific and unfiltered images of plane debris, dead bodies and the personal belongings of those who died in the crash were shared widely on social media within minutes of the disaster

      117 comments

      Tories face calls to hand back £160k given by Russian for tennis match

      22 Jul 2014: Wife of deputy finance minister under Putin in 2000, won auction at fundraising event to play with Cameron and Johnson
      322 comments

      Flight MH17: Russia must be sent clear message, says Hammond - video

      HAMMOND Video (45 sec), 22 Jul 2014: The foreign secretary, Philip Hammond, says the EU must send a "very clear signal to Russia" that it cannot continue its support for separatist rebels in eastern Ukraine

      Ukrainians report sightings of missile launcher on day of MH17 crash

      Buk 22 Jul 2014: In Torez, some say missile's journey through town has been a hot topic but people are scared of talking to outsiders

      MH17 black boxes arrive in Farnborough for analysis

      22 Jul 2014: AAIB experts will examine chain of events using data from voice and flight recorders belonging to Malaysia Airlines plane

      MH17: five of the most bizarre conspiracy theories

      22 Jul 2014: Padraig Reidy: From Zionist plots to the Illuminati, some wildly imaginative alternatives are being promoted by the likes of Russian TV
      522 comments

      MH17: Sky News reporter apologises for handling luggage at crash site

      Colin Brazier 22 Jul 2014: Colin Brazier says 'I got it wrong' after complaints to Ofcom over footage showing him picking up items top 200. By Jason Deans

      Flight MH17: what the Russian papers are saying

      A Malaysian air crash investigator inspects the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17, near the village of Hrabove (Grabovo), Donetsk region on 22 July, 2014. 22 Jul 2014: Despite mounting evidence that Moscow-backed rebels are responsible for shooting down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine, Russia's media is still painting a very different picture. RFE/RL reports

      392 comments

      Train carrying bodies from flight MH17 arrives in Kharkiv - video

      Train arrives in Kharkiv Video (54 sec), 22 Jul 2014: The train, believed to be carrying 282 bodies from the MH17 plane crash, arrives in government-held Kharkiv in Ukraine

      MH17: train carrying bodies of victims arrives in government-held Kharkiv

      The train with refrigerated wagons carrying the victims' bodies arrives in city of Kharkiv 22 Jul 2014: Train believed to be carrying 282 bodies arrives in Kharkiv – from where they will be flown to the Netherlands

      Newcastle beat Sydney and pay tribute to fans who died on flight MH17

      22 Jul 2014: Newcastle beat Sydney 4-0 in Dunedin at the start of their New Zealand tour but the football was overshadowed

      Alan Pardew pays tribute to Newcastle United fans killed in MH17 flight - video

      Alan Pardew Video (1min 12sec), 22 Jul 2014: Newcastle United manager Alan Pardew pays tribute to two fans killed on Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, saying the club will look to honour their memory this season

      MH17 tragedy reflected in the faces of schoolchildren at condolence ceremony

      Ambassadors from affected countries stand in the Australian parliament foyer during the signing of a condolence book on Tuesday. 22 Jul 2014: The most heart wrenching part of parliament's condolence book ceremony was that the faces of the lost could so easily have been among the schoolchildren solemnly watching on

      MH17: UN backs resolution demanding access to crash site – as it happened

      22 Jul 2014: The Security council has unanimously backed an Australian-drafted resolution condemning the "downing" of flight MH17 as separatists handover the black boxes to a Malaysian delegation
      1212 comments

      Tony Abbott labels MH17 crash site evidence-tampering on 'industrial scale'

      22 Jul 2014: 'After the crime comes the cover-up,' says Australian PM as he steps up rhetoric against pro-Russian rebels

      MH17: my error of judgment, by Sky News reporter

      MH17: Sky News reporter Colin Brazier reports from the crash scene 22 Jul 2014: Colin Brazier on how he came to pick up crash victims' luggage live on air – and immediately realised he had crossed a line

      Joe Hockey hopes Russia will still attend G20 summit in Brisbane

      22 Jul 2014: 'Rarely are great things achieved by excluding people from the conversation,' says Australian treasurer

      Ukraine rebels hand over MH17 black boxes and let train carrying bodies leave

      22 Jul 2014: Malaysian officials receive flight recorders, while remains of 282 victims begin journey to Netherlands

      The world is burning, but remember our sympathy goes only so far

      palestine 22 Jul 2014: Matthew Beard: If we don't feel sorrow and anger at the suffering of others, something's wrong. However, a well-cultivated moral sense recognises that you can't own someone else's pain
      113 comments

      MH17 black box handed to Malaysia by pro-Russian separatists – video

      Blackboxes returned Video (1min 06sec), 22 Jul 2014: The pro-Russian separatists governing the part of eastern Ukraine above which flight MH17 is thought to have been downed by a missile have handed the black box flight recorders to Malaysian authorities. At a ceremony in the city of Donetsk, Malaysia expressed its 'sincere appreciation'

      MH17: Australia and Netherlands join in pledge 'to bring our people home'

      22 Jul 2014: Australian and Dutch foreign ministers Julie Bishop and Frans Timmermans say the overriding objective is to bring home bodies of MH17 victims after the passing of UN resolution

      MH17: UN resolution passes as Russia points fingers at Ukraine – video

      Julie Bishop Video (1min 32sec), 22 Jul 2014: Australian foreign minister Julie Bishop welcomed the acceptance of a UN resolution condemning the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 and demanding access to the crash site. Russia backed the resolution, but soon after accused Ukraine of exploiting the situation for political means

      Pro-Russian rebels hand over MH17 black boxes to Malaysian officials - as it happened

      Aleksandr Borodai, Prime Minister of the self proclaimed 'Donetsk People's Republic', speaks at a news conference. 21 Jul 2014: Separatists hand over MH17 black boxes to Malaysian delegation following lengthy negotiations

      2836 comments

      EU blacklists Vladimir Putin's 'cronies' as David Cameron calls for arms ban

      21 Jul 2014: Prime minister says ties between east and west are at decisive moment as UN Security Council calls for full access to crash site

      MH17: UN backs Australian resolution demanding access to crash site

      Julie Bishop UN 21 Jul 2014: Resolution wins Russian support, but ambassador questions authenticity of taped conversations and video footage

      Morning Mail: MH17 bodies moved from conflict zone; more bloodshed in Gaza

      21 Jul 2014: Guardian Australia's morning news briefing from around the web

      Russia hits back at claims it supported rebels suspected of downing MH17

      21 Jul 2014: Vladimir Putin still blames Kiev for disaster in eastern Ukraine and claims west is using air atrocity for political gain

      MH17 victims' bodies are finally moved out of conflict zone

      Emergency workers load the bodies of passengers on to a truck 21 Jul 2014: Train carrying bodies of victims leaves Torez as plane's black box recorders were due to be handed to Malaysian delegation

      MH17 black box handover set to delay escalation of sanctions against Russia

      21 Jul 2014: Move means special meeting of EU foreign ministers is unlikely to press ahead with generalised economic sanctions

      MH17: Dutch king Willem-Alexander meets grieving relatives in Utrecht

      21 Jul 2014: Monarch says disaster leaves a 'deep wound in our society' after he and wife Maxima speak to family and friends of those killed

      Let Putin save face

      Vladimir Putin 21 Jul 2014: Angus Roxburgh: The Russian leader hates being lectured. A change of tack could persuade him to disown Ukraine's rebels
      1083 comments

      MH17: Obama says Putin 'directly responsible' for investigators' safety

      21 Jul 2014: President says Russian leader must 'compel separatists to cooperate', as secure recovery of bodies is 'least that decency demands'
      30 comments

      China stays quiet on MH17 disaster

      21 Jul 2014: Closer Sino-Russian relations mean Chinese leaders are loth to apportion blame for downing of Malaysia Airlines plane
      58 comments

      Joep Lange obituary

      Joep Lange in 2005. 21 Jul 2014: One of the world's top HIV/Aids researchers and prominent pioneer of antiretroviral therapy
      3 comments

      David Cameron's Commons statement on MH17: Politics live blog

      21 Jul 2014: Andrew Sparrow's rolling coverage of all the day's political developments as they happen, including Tony Blair's speech marking the 20th anniversary of his election as Labour leader and David Cameron's statement to the Commons on the shooting down of flight MH17
      589 comments

      Heavy clashes in Donetsk as forensic experts arrive at MH17 crash site

      21 Jul 2014: Four killed in heavy clashes in rebel stronghold of Donetsk as international pressure builds on Russia
      3070 comments

      MH17 victim's online charity appeal receives flood of donations

      Flowers at Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash site 21 Jul 2014: Thousands of pounds raised on JustGiving account in aid of Nepalese children since Briton died in Malaysia Airlines disaster

      MH17 crash site chaos - in pictures

      Ukrainian State Emergency Service employees search amongst the wreckage at the crash site of the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17. 21 Jul 2014: Experts fear evidence of how the Malaysia Airlines MH17 plane was brought down could be lost for ever as evidence disappears from the crash site

      UK to press European allies for tougher sanctions against Russia over MH17

      21 Jul 2014: EU to consider further oil, gas, defence and financial penalties if Putin does not encourage rebels to allow access to crash site
      353 comments

      MH17: Dutch experts arrive at crash scene as heavy fighting breaks out

      OSCE inspectors document the bodybags from MH17 at Torez train station 21 Jul 2014: Investigators say train being loaded with bodies will soon be moved as Ukraine launches offensive near Donetsk station

      Sharing pictures of corpses on social media isn't the way to bring a ceasefire

      21 Jul 2014: Suzanne Moore: First thoughts: I don't need you to tweet any more images of dead children – spreading them only devalues the currency of shared humanity
      813 comments

      MH17: Alan Pardew dedicates season to Newcastle fans who died in Ukraine

      21 Jul 2014: Alan Pardew has dedicated the forthcoming season to the two Newcastle fans who died in the Malaysian Airlines tragedy and praised Sunderland supporters for their generous donations

      MH17: Sydney teacher identified as victim of Malaysia Airlines disaster

      Gabriele 21 Jul 2014: Gabriele Lauschet, who was 47, was a teacher at the German International School at Terrey Hills

      Swedish reporters detained while reporting on MH17 tragedy

      21 Jul 2014: They were confined with seven other journalists

      24 comments

      MH17: Abbott says Australia would take Russian veto of resolution 'very badly'

      21 Jul 2014: Australian PM Tony Abbott says world leaders are strengthening their resolve over the downing of the Malaysia Airlines plane

      MH17: purported black box recorder being removed from crash site – video

      Black box Ukraine Video (41 sec), 21 Jul 2014: Video taken on Friday purports to show the black box recorder of flight MH17 being removed from its crash site in Ukraine, as cranes were used to remove part of the plane over the weekend. Rebel fighters say they have the black box and are prepared to hand it to international experts when they arrive in the town of Donetsk

      MH17: world's anger at Russia grows as bodies pile on to train at crash site

      21 Jul 2014: Experts fear clues as to why Malaysia Airlines plane was brought down could be lost for ever as chaos at scene persists

      1454 comments

      Both Sydney A-League clubs touched by MH17 disaster before warm-up games

      21 Jul 2014: Western Sydney Wanderers mourn fan Jack O'Brien, while Sydney FC face Newcastle United, who lost two devoted supporters

      Malaysia Airlines crash site 'absolutely shambolic', says Australian PM – video

      Tony Abbott Video (3min 16sec), 21 Jul 2014: Tony Abbott has branded the MH17 crash site 'absolutely shambolic' and called on Russian prime minister Vladimir Putin to stick to his word and help repatriate the victims

      MH17: holidaymakers, students and family of five among 38 Australian victims

      21 Jul 2014: Heartbreaking details emerge as identities of 38 Australian citizens and residents who died in the shooting down of MH17 over Ukraine are released

      MH17: UN resolution on ensuring crash site access set for Monday

      21 Jul 2014: Russia will support final version in security council vote if no one is blamed, according to reports in Australian newspaper

      MH17: Vladimir Putin will be held to his word on open inquiry, says Tony Abbott

      Tony Abbott

      Cameron tells Putin MH17 victims deserve proper funerals - as it happened

      Rebel soldiers pass a large piece of debris at the main crash site of MH17 which was shot down over eastern Ukraine. 20 Jul 2014: PM has told the Russian president that he must ensure access to the crash site as negotiations continue to bring the victims' bodies under Ukrainian control.

      834 comments

      Morning Mail: MH17 chaos as bodies loaded on to train; Gaza's bloodiest day

      20 Jul 2014: Guardian Australia's morning news briefing from around the web

      Martin Rowson on the world's current conflicts – cartoon

      Martin Rowson 21.07.14 Cartoon, 20 Jul 2014: World's anger at Russia grows following the downing of flight MH17, while the conflict in Gaza escalates, Isis militants gather strength in Syria and Baghdad bombings kill dozens

      183 comments

      Cameron tells Putin shooting down of MH17 was 'unacceptable'

      20 Jul 2014: Anger grows in EU and leaders prepare fresh sanctions against Moscow as separatists obstruct access to crash site

      Malaysia Airlines crash: across globe, prayers said as grief turns to despair

      20 Jul 2014: Thousands of miles apart, family and friends united in mourning for those killed when missile downed flight MH17 in east Ukraine

      Russians blame Kiev government for MH17 disaster, not Ukrainian rebels

      Woman lays flowers at the Dutch embassy in Moscow 20 Jul 2014: Some floral tributes outside Dutch embassy in Moscow read 'forgive us' but most people believe in plot to undermine Russia

      MH17: donations surge in memory of Britons as all 10 passengers identified

      20 Jul 2014: Fundraising web page set up by Richard Mayne sees pledges spike, while tribute to Newcastle United fans raises £18,000

      Three pro-Russia rebel leaders at the centre of suspicions over downed MH17

      20 Jul 2014: Igor Strelkov, Igor Bezler and Nikolai Kozitsyn reportedly discussed the shooting down of a plane soon after jet exploded

      Punishing Russia for the MH17 tragedy will not help Ukraine

      flight mh17 20 Jul 2014: Oliver Bullough: Anger at Russia's actions is hardening. Yet our leaders should recognise that the west had its own role in Ukraine's collapse
      540 comments

      MH17: missile launcher was in towns near crash site, videos suggest

      20 Jul 2014: Videos and photographs appear to show a mobile anti-aircraft missile launcher in neighbouring towns of Torez and Snizhne

      196 comments

      Justice for the bereaved after MH17 tragedy

      20 Jul 2014: Letters: The bereaved deserve an immediate, transparent investigation followed by appropriate compensation

      MH17: air accident experts fear that crash site is becoming contaminated

      Malaysian Airlines MH 17 Crash Site 20 Jul 2014: Area in which Malaysia Airlines plane came down should be 'sealed off and treated like a crime scene' to preserve evidence

      Sky News apologises after presenter is seen looking through MH17 luggage

      20 Jul 2014: Broadcaster met with storm of criticism after footage emerges of Colin Brazier picking items from suitcase at crash site

      MH17 crash: Kerry lays out evidence of pro-Russia separatists' responsibility

      20 Jul 2014: US secretary of state lists 'enormous input that points fingers' and urges Moscow to act as rebels move victims' bodies from crash site

      President Putin is a pariah, say the national newspapers in unison

      20 Jul 2014: Roy Greenslade on what the Sunday papers say about Russia's leader after the MH17 atrocity

      59 comments

      MH17: Kerry says all evidence points to separatists and urges Russia to 'step up'

      mh17 crash site 20 Jul 2014: Secretary of state says 'We have enormous input about this that points fingers' and calls on Russia to help full investigation

      524 comments

      EU to rethink Russian relations in wake of MH17 tragedy

      20 Jul 2014: Britain, France and Germany agree need for more robust stance against Vladimir Putin and may press for further sanctions

      Aids conference pays tribute to Malaysia Airlines victims

      Aids 2014 symposium in Melbourne 20 Jul 2014: Aids 2014 symposium in Melbourne honours six experts killed when MH17 flight shot down over Ukraine

      MH17: Vladimir Putin is given 'one last chance' as world fury mounts over downed flight

      20 Jul 2014: Dutch PM describes armed rebels' behaviour in blocking access to crash site as 'revolting'

      2926 comments

      MH17 victims put on refrigerated train bound for unknown destination

      20 Jul 2014: International monitors arrive in Torez to inspect wagons accompanied by convoy of heavily armed and nervous rebels

      MH17: pro-Russia rebels will allow access to crash site if ceasefire agreed

      Armed separatists at MH17 crash site in Ukraine 20 Jul 2014: Separatist leader will guarantee safety of international monitors as Vladimir Putin gets 'one last chance' to help rescue effort

      MH17: Rebels promise safe access to site in return for truce - as it happened

      20 Jul 2014: Separatist leader says they will guarantee safety of crash site observers in return for a Kiev-backed truce, amid accusations rebels are tampering with evidence and removing bodies from the site
      2288 comments

      MH17: UN draft resolution demands 'guilty should be held to account'

      20 Jul 2014: Draft resolution demands all states co-operate with investigation and those responsible for 'shooting down' jet be held to account

      MH17: Tony Abbott says Russia cannot 'wash its hands' of airline tragedy

      MH17 20 Jul 2014: The prime minister fears Russia will allow continued interference at the site and of the 298 victims

      Aids conference begins in Melbourne with gaping hole in delegates' hearts

      20 Jul 2014: Colleagues say the six brilliant minds in the HIV field who died when MH17 was shot down will be remembered and honoured

      MH17: disaster was 'outcome of human evil', bishop tells Sydney mass

      20 Jul 2014: Prime minister, governor-general and opposition leaders attend a service at St Mary's cathedral in Sydney
      13 comments

      MH17: family mourns 'senseless' deaths of three 'gentle, beautiful kids'

      maslin children 20 Jul 2014: Three children and their grandfather were four of seven West Australians who died

      MH17 flight attendant Angeline Premila Rajandran: 'She loved her job'

      20 Jul 2014: Family in Malaysia says 30-year-old stewardess had had job for 10 years, and priority now is for her body to be brought home

      Family and friends pay tribute as last of the British dead in MH17 are named

      20 Jul 2014: Ten British citizens died when the Malaysia Airlines jet was shot down over eastern Ukraine. They included a father of three who died along with his Dutch wife and their children

      MH17: the evidence against Russia

      Buk missile system on video said to be eastern ukraine hours before aeroplane crash 20 Jul 2014: In the hours after the Malaysia Airlines crash in Ukraine, evidence assembled from various sources appeared to point the blame at militants armed with Russian missiles


      Ukraine: it's time brutish Putin was held to account

      Malaysia Airlines plane crashes in eastern Ukraine 20 Jul 2014: Observer editorial: Russia under Putin has become a threat – regional and global – and its behaviour should be challenged


      533 comments

      David Cameron criticises Europe for lack of action on pro-Russia separatists

      20 Jul 2014: 'For too long there has been a reluctance to face up to the implications of what is happening,' British PM says

      Ukraine and the aftermath of the downing of flight MH17

      Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 crash site in Donetsk Region 19 Jul 2014: Dmitri Trenin: A ceasefire is only the first step in a process to reverse the trend towards mutual destruction in the region

      256 comments

      MH17 and its aftermath: 'ordinary Russians are horrified and frightened'

      19 Jul 2014: Natalia Antonova: In Moscow, conspiracy theories abound, along with disdain for the separatists and some support for Putin

      1372 comments

      MH17: Kerry expresses US concern over reports bodies and debris moved

      19 Jul 2014: Secretary of state speaks to Russian foreign minister as Russia and US put out differing statements on phone call
      62 comments

      Pilots' group president says MH17 shot down after attempt to avoid storms

      Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 takes off at 12.31 PM from Schiphol airport near Amsterdam. 19 Jul 2014: Malaysia Airlines plane was flying lower than planned and may have diverted on to more northerly course over Donetsk

      Putin's hard line on MH17 will only push Russia into an ever-tighter corner

      19 Jul 2014: Jonathan Eyal: the Russian president has several routes of retreat in the face of growing pressure. He is unlikely to take any of them

      MH17: armed rebels fuel chaos as rotting corpses pile up on the roadside

      19 Jul 2014: Pro-Russia gunmen in standoff with international investigators as reports grow of looting and the removal of evidence

      MH17: Russia is not yet ready to abandon rebel groups

      Russian President Vladimir Putin: not a happy man last week. 19 Jul 2014: Shaun Walker: if Vladimir Putin's 'people' are found responsible for the tragedy in Ukraine, it will be devastating for him

      MH17: Russian media pins blame on Ukraine government

      19 Jul 2014: Rebel leaders go on Russian TV to deny role in disaster as state-run channels cover conspiracy theories and counterclaims

      MH17: Ukraine claims 'compelling evidence' of Russian involvement

      19 Jul 2014: Kiev says it has proof that missile launchers with Russian crews crossed into Ukraine as fears mount that rebels are destroying evidence and removing bodies from the crash site
      3031 comments

      Malaysia's airline workers express horror and anger at fate of flight MH17

      A candle-lit vigil in Kuala Lumpur for the victims of the MH17 crash 19 Jul 2014: The president of the country's national union of flight attendants calls the death of all 298 people on board mass murder

      MH17: Ukraine accuses pro-Russia rebels of taking bodies from crash site

      19 Jul 2014: Kiev says pro-Russia rebels have removed bodies from crash site with help from Moscow, and are trying to destroy evidence

      Malaysia Airlines plane crash: 'an outrage of unspeakable proportions', says Obama - video

      Barack Obama Video (1min 47sec), 19 Jul 2014: US President Barack Obama discusses on Friday the shooting down a Malaysian passenger plane in east Ukraine on Thursday

      The 20 photographs of the week

      A Palestinian man burns a tyre during clashes with Israeli soldiers Gallery (20 pictures), 19 Jul 2014: The aftermath of the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, the escalating violence in Israel, the World Cup final – the best photography in news, culture and sport from around the world this week


      Eyewitness: Hrabove, Ukraine

      Flowers are placed on a plane engine at the crash site of the Malaysia Airlines jet Picture, 19 Jul 2014: Photographs from the Guardian Eyewitness series

      Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash site integrity may be compromised, says Malaysia - video

      Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash site Video (3min 05sec), 19 Jul 2014: Malaysia expresses concerns that the crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 has not been properly secured

      Russian media is covering up Putin's complicity in the MH17 tragedy

      monkey ukraine 19 Jul 2014: Masha Alekhina: In Russia, errors like shooting down a Malaysia Airlines jet could not have happened, so they simply won't have happened
      854 comments

      Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash – in pictures

      Wildflowers are placed on a plane engine at the crash site. 19 Jul 2014: As experts from the UK and Malaysia arrive in Kiev to assist a Ukrainian-led investigation into how flight MH17 was brought down, the world pays its respects to the dead

      Pro-Russia rebels accused of cover-up over MH17 atrocity

      19 Jul 2014: World leaders continue to demand answers over the MH17 air atrocity and relatives of the 298 on board mourn
      1475 comments

      MH17: Kiev and rebels hold talks to set up security zone around crash site

      Miners inspect a piece of debris found in a field from an Air Malaysia plane on July 18, 2014 in Grabovka, Ukraine. 19 Jul 2014: Agreement comes as experts from UK and Malaysia arrive in Kiev to assist a Ukrainian-led investigation into how flight was brought down
      1549 comments

      MH17: Victorian family of five add to list of Australian victims

      19 Jul 2014: Couple and three children from Eynesbury, Melbourne, confirmed on flight as country mourns victims

      Australians who died on flight MH17 – in pictures

      Albert and Maree Rizk 19 Jul 2014: These are some of the faces of passengers who on board MH17 when it was apparently shot down over Ukraine

      MH17: Tony Abbott increases pressure on Russia as Bishop heads for UN

      ukraine church 19 Jul 2014: Australian prime minister says he wants justice for 'dead and the living' and a 'full, impartial' investigation

      All eyes are on Vladimir Putin's reaction to the flight MH17 disaster

      19 Jul 2014: Mary Dejevsky: The Russian president can either join international efforts to investigate the tragedy or he can choose obfuscation and denial
      202 comments

      MH17: AIDS conference organisers name six delegates killed in crash

      19 Jul 2014: International AIDS Society expresses grief at loss of colleagues, saying there will be more

      MH17 crash: Julie Bishop urges Russia to back swift investigation

      Australian foreign minister Julie Bishop speaks to the media following her meeting with the Russian ambassador, Vladimir Morozov, in Sydney on Friday. 19 Jul 2014: Australian foreign minister says UN resolution is needed to ensure bodies can be repatriated and crash site examined

      MH17: Northern Territory teacher died returning from holiday

      19 Jul 2014: Emma Bell, originally from NSW, was due back for the new term at Maningrida

      MH17: rebels block access to part of site of crash as evidence against them grows

      19 Jul 2014: First OSCE investigators to the scene retreat after hour-long standoff with armed separatists who fired warning shots
      21 comments

      MH17: Australian flags to be flown at half-mast as nation mourns victims

      Sister Philomene Tiernan was a teacher at Kincoppal-Rose Bay. 19 Jul 2014: Malaysia Airlines says it will fly families of 28 victims to Ukraine as Tony Abbott asks for official mark of respect at government buildings

      Martin Rowson on flight MH17 and the Gaza invasion – cartoon

      Martin Rowson 19.07.14 Cartoon, 18 Jul 2014: This week ended with a double dose of horror: Israel's ground incursion into Gaza, and the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17


      205 comments

      Obama: MH17 disaster 'an outrage of unspeakable proportions' – as it happened

      18 Jul 2014: Answers demanded after the apparent shooting down of a Malaysia Airlines passenger plane with 298 people on board
      4589 comments

      Number of Aids researchers on flight MH17 'smaller than reported'

      Joep Lange 18 Jul 2014: Melbourne conference organisers confirm names of seven delegates on board with 28 Australian victims

      MH17 plane crash site: sunhats, sweets … and stakes marking body parts

      18 Jul 2014: Human remains, debris from Malaysia Airlines plane and surreal paraphernalia of long-haul travellers covers 15 square mile area

      Obama says destruction of MH17 is a 'wake-up call' for Europe

      18 Jul 2014: US president says separatists receive anti-aircraft equipment and training 'from Russia'

      MH17 disaster creates dilemma for Putin over backing Ukraine's rebels

      Russian President Vladimir Putin 18 Jul 2014: Malaysia Airlines crash makes supplying arms to separatists a threat to the world but pulling the plug means defeat for Russia

      Cover-up: Ukraine rebels destroying all links to MH17 air atrocity

      18 Jul 2014: UN demands full inquiry but armed Russian separatists block access to crash site amid confusion over black boxes

      968 comments

      Sifting through the wreckage of MH17, searching for sense amid the horror

      18 Jul 2014: Jonathan Freedland: In the face of events from Ukraine to Gaza, we want to believe that the world is not a place of uncontrollable catastrophe
      434 comments

      Many airlines have avoided Ukrainian airspace for months

      Planes 18 Jul 2014: British Airways, Qantas and Cathay Pacific among those who have taken detours around area where MH17 was brought down

      MH17: Heathrow top departure point for planes that flew near east Ukraine

      18 Jul 2014: Flight radar data shows that 930 flights travelled near or around eastern Ukraine over the past seven days

      The Guardian view on the shooting down of the Malaysian airliner over Ukraine

      18 Jul 2014: Editorial: Could this tragedy lead to new thinking in Moscow and Kiev and bring about fresh negotiations?
      634 comments

      Dutch king offers condolences to relatives of people on flight MH17

      Dutch King Willem-Alexander and Queen Maxima 18 Jul 2014: Information shows 189 of 298 people on board were Dutch, but overall reaction to tragedy in Netherlands is restrained

      Alan Pardew pays tribute to Newcastle United supporters on flight MH17

      18 Jul 2014: Newcastle United players and staff will wear black armbands in New Zealand as they pay tribute to John Alder and Liam Sweeney

      Flight MH17 was following right route, says Malaysian minister

      18 Jul 2014: Malaysia Airlines says flight plan was approved and airspace was commonly used for flights between Europe and Asia

      MH17 crash: WHO officer, students and Newcastle fans among British victims

      Glenn Thomas, WHO media officer 18 Jul 2014: Glenn Thomas, NUFC fans Liam Sweeney and John Alder, and students Richard Mayne and Ben Pocock on MH17

      Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash: what we know so far

      A picture taken on July 18, 2014 shows the wreckages of the Malaysia Airlines jet carrying 298 people from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur 18 Jul 2014: Following new developments and global reaction overnight, here is a roundup of what we know about Thursday's crash in the Ukraine

      Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash: world demands answers from Russia

      18 Jul 2014: US criticises Kremlin's arming of rebels and Hillary Clinton says 'Putin has gone too far' after 298 die in missile strike

      Two Australians on downed MH17 lost relatives on missing flight MH370

      Pieces of wreckage of the Malaysia Airli 18 Jul 2014: Family who suffered loss in March tragedy ripped apart again after Malaysia Airlines jet carrying 298 people is shot down

      Malaysia Airlines crash: Putin calls for Ukraine ceasefire

      18 Jul 2014: Russian president's call for both sides to enter talks comes as Moscow and Kiev blame each other for the downing of flight MH17

      Russia Today reporter resigns in protest at MH17 coverage

      18 Jul 2014: Sara Firth criticises Kremlin-backed news channel's 'disrespect for facts' in reports about Malaysia Airlines plane disaster By John Plunkett

      The MH17 crash images show us what war in Europe looks like in 2014

      Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash site 18 Jul 2014: Jonathan Jones: Framing the debate: Rightly, picture editors chose not to show some photos taken at the site. The wreckage itself communicates all we need to know
      336 comments

      Dutch travellers react calmly to loss of flight MH17

      18 Jul 2014: Schiphol passenger reaction typified by: 'This is something that never, ever happens. It's unlikely to happen again.'

      Malaysia Airlines crash: world leaders condemn attack - video

      Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 flight crash site Video (3min 12sec), 18 Jul 2014: World leaders, including David Cameron, Barack Obama and Angela Merkel, condemn the shooting down of Malaysia Airline flight MH17

      Photo highlights of the day

      David Beckhamwith Cruz and Romeo get slimed onstage during Nickelodeon Kids' Choice Sports Awards in Los Angeles, California. 18 Jul 2014: The Guardian's photo team brings you a daily round up from the world of photography
      5 comments

      MH17 dominates newspaper front pages around world, but not in Russia

      18 Jul 2014: State-run Rossiyskaya Gazeta leads with story about Russians' eating habits, relegating plane crash to bottom of page
      • Follow the live blog on the MH17 crash

      MH17 victims include former president of International Aids Society

      18 Jul 2014: Joep Lange and partner among number of scientists and activists flying to international Aids conference in Melbourne

      'Tragedy of flight MH17 must mark final point in Ukraine conflict'

      Yuriah Tanzil (C), sister of Ninik Yuriani, an Indonesian passenger of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, is comforted by a relative in the family residence in Jakarta. All 298 people on board Flight MH17 en route to Kuala Lumpur from Amsterdam died when the plane crashed near a Ukrainian village. 18 Jul 2014: After the loss of so many innocent lives, the international community must find a way to prevent this stand-off from reaching an even more dangerous level, says Dmitri Trenin

      Ukraine responsible for Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 disaster, says Vladimir Putin – video

      Russian President Vladimir Putin Video (1min 47sec), 18 Jul 2014: Russian president Vladimir Putin reacts on Thursday to the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in Ukraine

      Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash – in pictures

      The crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in Donetsk 18 Jul 2014: The world is demanding answers from Russia after a Malaysia Airlines jet's destruction over Donetsk, Ukraine, near the Russian border. The area has seen violent clashes between Ukrainian and pro-Russia separatists since the annexation of Crimea in February

      Cameron: culprits who shot down MH17 must be held to account

      Wreckage from Malaysia Airlines MH17 in east Ukraine

      Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine – video report

      Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 flight crash site Video (2min 10sec), 18 Jul 2014: Firefighters and journalists discuss Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, which was shot down in eastern Ukraine

      Ukraine: missile that downed MH17 plane was not ours

      18 Jul 2014: Foreign minister denies missile that shot down Malaysia Airlines jet over east of country came from Ukrainian military

      MH17: Russia risks losing standing over handling of disaster, Tony Abbott warns

      abbott 18 Jul 2014: Australian PM says Kremlin's denial of any responsibility for downing of aircraft does not bear any 'serious scrutiny'
      156 comments

      Can Malaysia Airlines survive MH17 disaster?

      18 Jul 2014: Malaysian carrier was still reeling from the disappearance of MH370 in March when news of the crash in Ukraine broke

      Family missed Malaysia Airlines flight owing to lack of seats

      18 Jul 2014: Couple with baby son were unable to board flight MH17 to Kuala Lumpur because there was only one seat left

      • Follow the latest developments on our live blog

      Tony Abbott calls for justice after Malaysia Airlines disaster – video

      Tony Abbott parliament Video (1min 39sec), 18 Jul 2014: Australian prime minister Tony Abbott has told parliament those responsible for shooting down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 'must be brought to justice'. He said Australia would seek a binding resolution through the UN security council for a full investigation. The bodies of the Australians killed would be repatriated as quickly as possible, he said, adding 'the bullying of small countries by big ones ... should have no place in our world'.

      Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 'shot down' in Ukraine - as it happened

      18 Jul 2014: A passenger jet belonging to Malaysia Airlines carrying 298 people has crashed in eastern Ukraine

      Aids conference says 100 researchers may have been on flight MH17

      18 Jul 2014: Session held ahead of Aids 2014 conference told email exchanges show about 100 attendees booked on flight MH17

      UN meets as world leaders call for global inquiry into MH17 crash

      Ban ki-moon 18 Jul 2014: UN Security Council meets amid demands for a independent investigation for fear aircraft debris may be tampered with

      Hillary Clinton says Russian-backed rebels likely shot down plane – video

      Hilary Clinton Video (2min 15sec), 18 Jul 2014: Former US secretary of state Hillary Clinton has said if Malaysia Airways flight MH17 was shot down by a surface-to-air missile as believed by US intelligence agencies, then "the equipment had to have come from Russia". Should Russia's assistance be proven, she called for Europe to step up sanctions against Russia and to "put Putin on notice that he has gone too far and we are not going to stand idly by".

      How the Ukraine crisis has worsened in the past week

      18 Jul 2014: Conflict between pro-Russian separatists and Ukrainian forces had intensified before jet with 298 civilians on board was shot down

      Malaysia Airlines VP announces nationalities of MH17 passengers – video

      Malaysia Airlines Chief Video (1min 03sec), 18 Jul 2014: Vice president of Malaysia Airlines Europe, Huib Gorter, has told the media what he knows about the number of people killed on Malaysia Airlines flight MH17

      MH17: tributes to victims as details emerge of 28 Australians killed

      18 Jul 2014: Queensland and Victoria were home to majority of Australians killed in shooting down of Malaysia Airlines flight in Ukraine

      MH17: recording shows Russian colonel and rebels 'discussing disaster' – video

      Ukraine crash Reuters Video (2min 19sec), 18 Jul 2014: The Security Service of Ukraine has released a recording of what it says are conversations between rebel fighters and a Russian colonel about shooting down the Malaysia Airlines plane

      Malaysia Airlines MH17 flight path map

      MH17 flight path graphic Graphic, 18 Jul 2014: • Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 takes off from Amsterdam at about10:30 (UTC/GMT), headed for Kuala Lumpur
      • MH17 is reportedly hit by a missile while flying over Ukraine at about 13:21 (UTC/GMT) and crashes near the village of Grabovo in an area controlled by pro-Russia separatists


      Russian aggression is a threat to global security, Ukraine president says after MH17 crash - video

      Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko Video (44 sec), 18 Jul 2014: In a televised address, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko appeals to the global community to treat the missile attack on MH17 as more than just a local problem, calling the attack an act of terrorism and a wake-up call for the whole world.

      MH17 crash: investigators must have full access to site, says Malaysian PM

      18 Jul 2014: Najib Razak calls for justice, saying air disaster 'a tragic day, in what has already been a tragic year, for Malaysia'

      MH17: Australian foreign minister Julie Bishop urges Ukraine rebels to co-operate with investigation - video

      Julie Bishop Video (1min 18sec), 18 Jul 2014: Australia's foreign minister Julie Bishop has urged pro-Russia separatists in eastern Ukraine to co-operate with an investigation into the explosion of flight MH17, asking for Australian consulate staff to be given access to the crash site. At least 27 Australian citizens are believed to have been on board the flight

      Malaysia Airlines changes route over eastern Ukraine after MH17 shot down

      18 Jul 2014: Airline says it had believed flight path over increasingly volatile region was safe, but will now take alternative route

      MH17: Hillary Clinton says Russian-backed rebels likely shot down plane

      18 Jul 2014: Former US secretary of state declares 'Putin has gone too far' as White House criticises Kremlin's arming of Ukraine separatists

      Pim de Kuijer, my friend and Aids campaigner, killed in MH17 crash

      Pim de Kuijer 18 Jul 2014: A friend pays tribute to the Dutch citizen killed in airliner shot down over Ukraine, who was an enthusiastic writer and political activist and 'most of all loved by many'

      Malaysia Airlines plane MH17: wars have bloomed from far, far less

      18 Jul 2014: Paul Daley: Rapid and precise responses are demanded – but publicly displaying genuine empathy and leading public grieving is just as critical for world leaders, including Tony Abbott
      1230 comments

      Missile destroys Malaysia Airlines plane over Ukraine, killing 298 people

      18 Jul 2014: Pro-Russia rebels blamed for downing airliner, with Ukrainian president condemning 'terrorist act' and world leaders expressing shock and revulsion

      2192 comments

      Malaysia Airlines crash: too early to call a terrorist attack, says expert

      Malaysian Airlines flight MH17, Dutch embassy in Kiev 18 Jul 2014: Terrorism doesn't 'make sense' and the shooting of flight MH17 is 'more likely to be a military event gone wrong'

      Australian stock market braces for a fall after shooting down of MH17

      18 Jul 2014: Stock futures indicated market would open at around half a percent lower, but sell off could be even worse

      MH17 passenger about to board joked on Facebook about plane disappearing

      18 Jul 2014: Messages flooded in as people realised young man and his girlfriend from the Netherlands were on plane shot down

      Malaysia Airlines crash: Australian PM tells Russia to explain disaster

      Tony Abbott talks to the opposition leader, Bill Shorten, in the House of Representatives on Friday morning. 18 Jul 2014: Tony Abott tells MPs: 'This is not something that can just be dismissed as a tragic accident when you have Russian proxies using Russian-supplied equipment'

      Malaysia Airlines crash: analysts point towards Soviet-era Buk missile system

      18 Jul 2014: Rebel groups in eastern Ukraine said to have been shooting at planes and helicopters with Buk missiles over past week

      MH17 crash: Aids researchers heading to Melbourne believed among dead

      18 Jul 2014: Scientists were on route to the 20th international Aids conference, due to start on Sunday

      Witnesses describe Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash in eastern Ukraine - video

      Crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 Video (1min 28sec), 17 Jul 2014: Witnesses describe the scene on Thursday afternoon when Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crashed near the Ukraine-Russia border


      Malaysia Airlines crash: 27 Australians on board downed plane in Ukraine

      Flames and smoke rise from the debris at the crash site. 17 Jul 2014: Tony Abbott says it is a 'grim, grim time' and the world should be 'filled with revulsion' if it is proved the plane was shot down

      MH17 crash site: impact threw us to the ground, say shocked witnesses

      17 Jul 2014: Our reporter at scene of downed Malaysian airliner sees debris and body parts across huge area near Russia-Ukraine border

      Ukrainian president calls Malaysia Airlines crash a 'terrorist attack' - video

      Ukrainian president calls Malaysia Airlines crash a "terrorist attack" - video Video (2min 10sec), 17 Jul 2014: Journalists and emergency services examine the crash site near the eastern Ukrainian town of Grabovo where Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 fell

      Downed Malaysia Airlines plane: how did it go wrong for flight MH17?

      17 Jul 2014: All flights now barred from eastern Ukraine, where airliner was downed while reportedly flying 1,000ft above restricted airspace

      A history of passenger aircraft that have been shot down

      17 Jul 2014: Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 may be the latest passenger aircraft to be brought down by militaries around the globe

      Malaysia: 'We're not ready to accept this so soon after MH370 tragedy'

      Relatives of passengers on Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 await information at Kuala Lumpur airport 17 Jul 2014: Malaysia Airlines crash in Ukraine stuns country still searching for answers to and wreckage of disappeared flight MH370

      Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crashes in east Ukraine

      17 Jul 2014: Plane carrying 298 people may have been shot down near Russian border but government and separatists deny involvement

      Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crashes over Ukraine - video

      Ukraine: Malaysia Airlines plane 'shot down' Video (1min 36sec), 17 Jul 2014: A Malaysia Airlines passenger flight has crashed over eastern Ukraine with 295 people on board

      Ukraine claims fighter plane shot down by Russian missile

      Sukhoi Su-25 fighter planes 17 Jul 2014: Russia denies strike on jet, the third reported incident this week, amid accusations of involvement in attacks on Ukrainian troops

    July

    [Jul 29, 2014] US follows EU in setting new sanctions targeting Russian economy

    From comments: "Seriously, Guardian reporting on the Ukrainian crisis has become a bad joke, very similar in tone and approach to the New York Times reporting on Iraqi WMDs in 2002-2003."
    theguardian.com
    EdSaint, 29 July 2014 10:32pm
    Yes, in contrast we get a much speedier change of tune from the USA. At first we "know that a Russian missile" downed MH17, then we are just "certain of Russian involvement" in the firing of the missile, then we have "no evidence of direct Russian involvement" in the missile, and then simply "Russia creating the conditions" for the MH17 tragedy.

    Yes, so much less tiring to have the tune changed so quickly within the space of little more than a week. What we end up with is a meaningless accusation, mindless of all of the other actors in the situation in the Ukraine. Why doesn't the US sanction itself for its role in helping "create the conditions" for the whole sorry debacle? It's not as if they didn't encourage the collapse of the fragile democracy that was holding the society together leading inevitably to this civil-war.

    The initial accusation has become just another piece of empty rhetoric.

    mustspeak -> Wolfloid, 29 July 2014 11:56pm
    "The missile remained Russian all the way through. Or had you not worked that one out?"

    And the car that caused a fatal accident that killed more than one innocent pedestrian was a Ford Escort, all the way -- so why have we not imposed sanctions upon Ford Motor Corporation or the Ford dealership that sold the car to the driver who drove it into the pedestrians?

    Because the missile was built by Russia does not mean Russia fired it -- in deed, even the USA admits there is no evidence of that, and Russia is not stupid enough to shoot itself in the foot by doing so. Or had you not worked that out?

    mustspeak -> Wolfloid , 30 July 2014 12:03am
    Incidently, I am a non-involved British Citizen, not Russian troll -- I only speak as I did in my above response to you because the sheer hypocrisy of the USA, Britain and the EU sickens me.

    Maybe they are doing this to draw attention away from and shelter their pal, the murderous Israel's horrifying genocide in Gaza being too exposed to totally justified global anger?

    viewfromairstripone, 29 July 2014 9:53pm
    The key thing here is, given a ceasefire, would the Kiev government be able to control the volunteer militia groups, neo-fascist gangsters one and all, setting themselves up and then driving into rebel-controlled areas to slaughter civilians? I fear the answer is no, so no ceasefire could hold.
    indoorain -> Stunning , 29 July 2014 11:28pm
    I am sitting in Hackney, East London, no one pays me for my qwerty daily exercises, I do that because of my own conscience. And yes in the given situation I am pro Russian. Following the track record it is pretty hard not to be and still have sane mind.

    Apropos Figaro, articles of this kind are no more that piece in the jigsaw called overall witch hunt on Russia. Figaro, it is about democracy boomerang that you are getting back what you been doing for decades.

    ID7015969, 29 July 2014 9:53pm

    'The measures do not affect the trading of oil, gas or other commodities'

    All or fucking nothing I say.

    mauman, 29 July 2014 9:56pm

    a declaration of economic warfare. So Russia cannot hit back all that hard economically. But it can otherwise. Keep pushing Russia.

    So Russis is "punished" for providing political support to a segment of the Ukranian population who took up arms to defend their heritage the moment their mother tongue was banned and they understood what their future had in store for them under an ultra-nationalist govt who had no qualms about attacking them and their families and still do. Hundreds of civilians killed/

    Our govt want to support AQ inspired fanatics, who behead people on video in Syria and Libya
    Our govt backs the one in Israel who have murdered a thousand civilians in Israel in 2 weeks
    my goodness. staggering.

    photosymbiont, 29 July 2014 9:57pm

    Seriously, Guardian reporting on the Ukrainian crisis has become a bad joke, very similar in tone and approach to the New York Times reporting on Iraqi WMDs in 2002-2003.

    Everyone knows that both the leading 'liberal' and the leading 'conservative' news outfits are united in their service to national self-interest, correct? Anything less would be 'unpatriotic' - and the liberal press adheres to this concept as much as the conservative press does (and many suspect that the whole liberal-vs-conservative meme is nothing but a puppet show).

    It is not unusual in history to see a small number of people benefiting from government organizations, while the vast majority suffer. The extent to which this situation occurs is indicative of the nature of the government and the human society that is woven up with it.

    Might we be a bit on the sick and decrepit side, all things considered?

    Doug Salzmann, 29 July 2014 10:01pm

    More annoying and insulting chest-thumping. Consider re-writing this as a puppet-show script.

    When you want to return to international prime-time drama, announce an energy-products blockade. Please provide lead time for orderly evacuation of cities.

    Thank you.

    [Apr 24, 2014] Ukraine: government troops move against pro-Russia separatists - live

    The Guardian

    peterDKK

    Local sources confirm attack on Slavyansk (colonelcassad.livejournal.com)
    A number of APC approached separatist roadblocks, spraying these with heavy machine-gun fire. Deaths reported among defenders, possible casualties among attacking force.

    Later Kiev's forces pulled back from roadblocks for no obvious reasons.

    Unconfirmed reports that three massive Russian army columns are heading to Dontesk, Mariupol on the Russian side. "Peacekeeper Force" inscribed on vehicles. (Possibly disinformation or just a feign. Possibly sufficient for the Slavyansk attack force to falter.)

    Gerry Tighe

    Watch this from the BBC yesterday.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27122149

    It shows Kiev children being taught to sing the song "hang the Russians"

    Gives no faith at all in the Kiev transitional government.

    Colin Ball

    I fear that the price for this blatant regime change in Ukraine, as orchestrated and supported by the West, will go down in history as the moment that led to WW3, and the slaughter of millions of people. How very sad that we have allowed our leaders to do this.

    TheCatsTable Colin Ball

    For WWIII you need worldwide concensus that its a battle worth fighting for....this is not the case here. Nobody supports the EU expansionist project, nobody supports the American faux-World's Policeman act and nobody supports Putin's expansionist project either.

    The shame of the matter is that somehow the proud and beautiful country of Ukraine has become the arena for these posturing sets of fools to collide.

    AlexRussia

    Lavrov accused the U.S. of trying to " color revolution in Ukraine "

    " Few people have doubts that it is not so much about the fate of Ukraine. Ukraine trying to use as a pawn in the geopolitical game ," - said Lavrov .

    " Our Western partners , especially the U.S. , tried to behave as victors in the Cold War and pretend that in European affairs can not reckon with Russia and to take actions that cause direct damage to the interests of Russia's security ," - said the Minister.

    Lavrov also accused the Americans of the expanded campaign against Russia . He recalled the " hysterical anti-Russian propaganda " at the beginning of this year and trying to " tarnish" the Olympic Games in Sochi .

    Told the Minister and his vision of the Geneva agreements . The Foreign Minister emphasized the fact that the West has agreed to a three- format consultation , whereas before in Brussels insisted on bilateral negotiations with Kiev.

    " Now the next Russian president's proposal to start a serious consultation with all stakeholders supported. Expect that this support materializes into action in the near future " - said Lavrov .

    Sergei Lavrov, on the eve of the TV channel Russia Today said that the Americans are the developments in Ukraine , and State Department spokeswoman Jen Psak said that the assumptions of the Russian minister absurd and laughable.

    Zogz

    I'm really surprised the Guardian continues to term these protestors in the East of Ukraine as "pro-Russian protestor". Its such a dismissive term and loaded as hell. If nothing else, its an over simplification at worst its intentional misrepresentation.
    It wouldn't be the first time the Guardian has played this role. The question is why?

    dackel55

    it is clear that if I try to remove the so called pro russian activists with force and use of lethal weapons there would be deaths. How can there be a deescalation now or a political process to bring both sides to the table. Kiew has most probably forced the hand of Russia now to go in and protect their people. Was this the plan all along? The answer to that question I fear is yes. When Russia does go in they of course will be the aggressors and the likes of Hague and the bent US administration will all condem the Russians very loudly. Hopefully Putin can keep a cool head and understand that he is being lured in to a trap. Which it most certainly is !!!

    jiffery

    Putin: There will be consequences if Kiev army uses army against its own people.

    Well, they would just be following Putin's Chechnya example. He didn't seem to mind Assad doing the same either.

    Putin's hypocrisy knows no bounds. The hypocrisy of the USA and some other western countries does not excuse it. Putin is officially against intervention in other countries. He can only justify intervention in his own terms if parts of Ukraine are really part of Russia...

    Alexey Vladimirovich jiffery

    Obama's hypocrisy knows no bounds. The hypocrisy of the Russia does not excuse it

    Danie Nortje jiffery

    Do you actually know what started the 2nd Chechen War, i.e. the one which Putin was involved in?

    Per Wikipedia:

    "The Second Chechen War was launched by the Russian Federation, starting 26 August 1999, in response to the Invasion of Dagestan by the Islamic International Brigade (IIB).

    On 1 October Russian troops entered Chechnya.[23][24] The campaign ended the de facto independence of Chechen Republic of Ichkeria and restored Russian federal control over the territory. Although it is regarded by many as an internal conflict within the Russian Federation, the war attracted a large number of foreign fighters."

    Arapas

    The Ukrainian "anti-terrorist" offensive appears to be picking up momentum.

    Please, give us a break.
    The opposition to the thugs in Kiev is called terrorism, that is what is boiling down to.

    If is true that Russian forces are on the border, now is the time to move in and avert the US concocted bloodbath.

    dominicg

    And so begins the next chapter begins in the propaganda war of words between the West and Russia.

    The casualties being Truth and the Ukrainian people.

    Personally, I'd like to see every article in 2 versions - a western version side-by-side with a pro-putin one. Divide by 2 and then we might know whats going on.

    Or, a clever government in Ukraine would organise a referendum immediately (followed by elections) so "what the people want" becomes documented fact, and not just what each side would like it to be.

    Brynmawr

    Chilling as the situation is I think the comments here, and elsewhere on the Guardian website over the last weeks, are fascinating.

    Judging from the tone and the range of opinions being expressed it seems certain that there's a lot of misrepresentation here. I doubt very much whether that many of the "John Smith"s and "Brian from Reading"s posting here are actually called John or Brian, or come from anywhere near Reading.

    So much, so obvious. What I'd like to know is how the Guardian and its journalists feel about this? Do they think it legitimate to provide a platform for untruths (and I am making no judgement about who is telling those untruths) which seem to have little to do with the best values of journalism?

    Perhaps, since there is a tab for "staff replies" one of their staff might offer an opinion?

    AXWE08

    I think we can safely conclude that Kiev got the go-ahead from Washington for this operation. Washington and Moscow are either playing a well-choreographed game or the US is embarking on WW3 before it's economy implodes. The NeoCon view is that not to advance is to fall back.

    tramor

    I know this is complicated, but let's try something simple.

    Would the pro-Russian faction here say that there are parts of the Ukraine where the army Ukrainian army should not be allowed to go?

    Would the pro-Russian faction argue that if the Ukrainian army does go into all parts of the Ukraine, and that it finds itself in conflict with people brandishing automatic weapons, that this is a provocation and a threat to Russia's vital national interests?

    Please make sure that your answers are compatible with the Russian destruction of Grozny, and do not depend on the Slavic suprematism which seems to infect both sides of this conflict.

    Alexey Vladimirovich tramor

    Change "Pro-Russian" on "Pro-EU" or "Pro-US" or "Maidan"

    lids tramor

    The troops were sent in by a government considered a junta by the people of the East Ukraine. The very problem is the order given by an unrepresentative government stuffed with fascists and nationalists handed power by CIA orchestrated coup.

    So no, the "special forces" troops are effectively acting unlawfully, which is why the Kiev govt had to seek permission from USA before issuing the order.

    shaun

    The Geneva "agreement" of a few days ago stipulated that BOTH sides' militias should be disbanded. Both sides were supposed to try to de-escalate the situation. Kiev has not, and is being led by the man who has systematically tried to make the situation worse than it is by crying about a supposed Russian "aggression", and sending in troops.

    So, the stars are lined up - the 24 April is the day the war, where everyone fights everyone else, is due to start. (The War planets, Mars, Neptune etc. and earth. I'm not into astrology but they may have got it right this time)

    Minor news; The miners in Donetsk have gone on strike, as the Kiev Gov have cut their salaries by 10%, imposed a 10% tax as well and are expecting them to pay for the reconstruction of Maidan. (Rinat Akhmetov is Kievien but oligarch of the mines. "The mining industry employs about 500,000 people throughout the region, provides about 15 percent of the country's GDP and coal alone is 30 percent of Ukraine's energy consumption," )

    ballymichael

    They didn't really have an option but to go in. No state can tolerate an armed militia usurping its functions for long. Either the state implodes (as effectively happened in Kiev), or it strikes out at the militants.

    As Putin did want President Yanukovitch to do, of course. Back when the "dissidents" were those on the Maidan.

    We'll see whether Putin backs down. Since he's already got lots of his troops there, and his propaganda has the Ukrainian intermediate government as neo-nazis, this seems difficult to imagine.

    Amazing, really, how we got to this stage. It's Christopher Clark's "The Sleepwalkers" all over again.

    Still, fortunately there are no western military garantees to Ukraine. Which should keep any war contained, if the worse happens. Cold comfort for those involved, of course. "Winter is Coming" as the cartoon rather aptly put it

    stephanblack

    i strongly suspect a guerrilla war against the kiev troops in eastern ukraine….a civil war is now inevitable….now if only the pair of idiots cameron and hague can keep their mouths shut….and resolve not to get in solved….then hopefully the fallout will not be too bad….neutrality was never a better idea than right now….this is not a british fight….and if it becomes so we shall soon be destroyed….our finances are in such a catastrophic condition….

    mikserg

    Oops, the freak show is being taken to another level. Does anyone in Ukraine, or even outside have an idea of what Ukraine will look like after all is over? It seems to me that, based on the peanuts given to Ukraine up to date, neither the US nor EU are going to pick up the bill to repair Ukraine.

    Their stupid Maidan movement left the same people in the government and the parliament. They are not going to work and think but will keep begging and stealing. I can't stop any of this. What I am going to do is to vote for any politician in my country who promises that not a single cent of my tax money goes to the pathetic beggars as 'help'.

    allislost

    My dad (he whom raised 6 children, his father killed during ww1, served in and damaged his lungs in the fire service ww2....) often said, 'Don't trust anyone son'.

    I could never understand what he meant but after over 65 years here I now sorely know exactly what he meant.

    In conclusion, damn, we are not the good guys.

    ID1543590 allislost

    The enemy of humanity is the Anglo-American banking cabal. It is up to the American and British people to remove this threat.

    Hanwell123

    Even if Kiev seizes control in the East it is hardly likely to result in peace! They seem determined to provoke Russia to invade in the hope -or expectation? - that US-NATO will move in to help and "secure" the border with Russia. It has been planned, discussed and now it's underway.

    zchabj5

    2 world wars not enough of a lesson for Europeans, they want to revive ideological, religious, ethnic wars yet again?

    What on earth is wrong with us.

    KyKaH zchabj5

    it's called rationalism. if a man has intelligence in profit-oriented socienty, moral ascpects considered unprofitable

    EddieDay

    Lets be frank the main body of the views on here are pretty backward, obviously aware the posters on here are doing as there told , but a key point here is the US alone accounts for a quarter of the worlds gross GDP, the largest "single" nation economy in the world, the EU combined is the largest economy in the world, japan the 3rd, this is a bit like Woolworth's taking on Walmart.

    The world economy is intwined, the US, EU, Japan the G7 and pretty much the rest of the world have made clear that any additional troops in eastern Ukraine will trigger economic sanctions, the US and the world know Russia today can be crushed economically and Putin knows this to, the west is probably secretly hoping he does this, to deny him the public stage and remove Russia's voice on world policy, removing the last major threat remaining to world piece, we don't need to mass troops on neighbours borders to influence

    Russias fate will be sealed at the keyboard to a computer will Putin dare, i kind of hope he does so we don't have to listen to all this nonsense again, but i fear even he is not that stupid. Right off to debate with more intelligent souls.

    ID1543590

    All wars are bankers' wars:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F29bNPN8FTE

    Nancy Turner

    When you have armed people taking over government buildings, police stations, and trying to take over military bases you have an extreme emergency situation. The USA and other western countries have a national guard that is called to help in emergency situations, especially when the police stations have been kidnapped. No one wants a war but the situation in Ukraine calls for serious measures. The Ukraine government is trying to regain control

    Alexey Vladimirovich Nancy Turner

    What about Maidan, "when armed people taking over government buildings, police stations, and trying to take over military bases"

    OneStepRemoved Nancy Turner

    They should have thought of this when seizing power.

    zchabj5 Nancy Turner

    But the US government would be democratically elected. And the current Ukrainian regime is bankrolled by foreign forces. Totally illegitimate.

    The current Ukrainian regime overthrew a democratic President and is now raising new army groups to send in to squash separatist movements. Not even remotely similar situations.

    Nancy Turner

    Ukraine is not trying to kill its citizens.

    CodyJoeBibby2014 Nancy Turner

    ukraine has killed its citizens. Five of them today.

    Rich_N Nancy Turner

    So its deployed special forces (maybe mercenaries?) to check their teeth and make sure they are getting their vitamins?

    dr8765

    It's good to see western style democracy being delivered to eastern Ukraine at last. Those who live there and who oppose it at present will soon be taught the error of their ways. I would suggest sending delegations from Egypt and Libya to persuade them of the benefits of western style democracy, and one from Greece to explain all the advantages of joining the EU.

    OneStepRemoved dr8765

    Very witty but it's not a laughing matter.

    dr8765 OneStepRemoved

    The idea is to make the point without resorting to yet another political polemic.

    Kaiama

    No side has complete advantage, though I detect that Kiev is far too optimistic and quick of the mark in their interpretation of events on the ground. The big questions:-
    1 Will Kiev run into some competent opposition and get humiliated?
    2 Will Russia give the US the middle finger and step in?
    I think 1) is very likely but 2) is very difficult to call.

    tanino51

    I see that there are many brave commentators siding the Ukrainian tanks killing unarmed people ... Congratulations !

    salvop tanino51

    the western oligarchies have always sided with mass murderers whenever it has been in their interest

    Babeouf

    Putin has said there will be 'consequences' as a result of the assaults of the Ukrainian army. The end game has definitely begun in Ukraine.

    sportinlifesport

    Talk of a World War III may be very much premature. We forget that Eastern and Western Europe do not constitute the "world", much less so now than during the previous two. Those were world wars because treaties and external body's cynical national interests drew non-European countries into the conflict.

    That has not happened so far and seems unlikely, given that most external actors view both Eastern and Western Europe as competitors, if not enemies, and will likely be happy to sit aside and let the behemoths battle. Yes their economies will suffer somewhat, but the payoff of picking up the pieces could bring a windfall.

    Johnny Kent elti97

    That is hopelessly optimistic thinking-in situations like these the chance of miscalculations, cock-ups, escalation, are all there; specially in the US regime, there are plenty of Dr Strangelove types who would risk war with Russia.

    zchabj5

    What happens when the "anti terrorist" operation finishes, and the gun men who want to separate from Ukraine just return after allowing the Ukrainian "army" to take buildings back unopposed?

    Ukraine's economy in the east will be shot for decades with this insurgency, who want to be independent or Russian.

    It's no coincidence that the current leader Yatsenuk was the leader of the Open Ukraine organixzation with deep ties to NATO, CHatham House and the US.

    Bulagen

    The Greeks gave to the Trojans a horse. The US gave to Europe, Yugoslavia, Libya and Ukraine troubles... Money loves silence. Isn't it?

    AndrewSa20

    For those who think that the US is dong good, please read this piece by John Pilger http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/17/nato-ukraine-dr-strangelove-china-us
    And think again.

    wombat123

    This looks more like Tiananmen Square than anything that will lead to a return to democracy in Ukraine. The US backed junta in Kiev usurped power by violence and will attempt to hold power by bloodshed. Russia will most likely intervene if this continues.

    The pretext for this atrocity, the photos that purport to show Russian Special Forces in eastern Ukraine have been debunked. The US media including the New York Times is conducting the same kind of journalism that Hearst papers did before the Spanish-American War. Unfortunately they will probably be able to see real Russian Soldiers in eastern Ukraine in the near future. This is the most dangerous confrontation that I have seen in my lifetime. Too many people seem fine with WW III.

    panpipes wombat123

    A junta is a military-led government. That would be Egypt. In Kiev the military does not lead the government.

    ID1543590 panpipes

    In Ukraine, fascist militias are the government

    [Apr 19, 2014] The Kremlin Stooge

    Moscow Exile April 17, 2014 at 8:21 pm
    This morning's Guardian with a PR piece on those nice Maidan "freedom fighters":

    Inside the Ukrainian Rebel Fighters of Maidan

    Note the rosary beads dangling on one of the peaceful Maidanut's body armour. I am sure they are not Russian or Ukrainian Eastern Orthodox chotki. They look more like RC or Greek Uniate ones, a sure sign that the wearer is from the heart of Banderastan, the far West of that fictive country that they call "Ukraine". (Russian Orthodox chotki are much plainer, often of knotted cord and without beads (chotki). They don't have as many "decades" – groups of 10 counting beads or, as the case may be, knots, for the reciting of "Hail Mary".)

    I have noticed that very many of the Pravy Sektor displayed the same beads in the very many You Tube clips that I have watched of the violence in Kiev.. However, the Grauniad journalist presents these young men as peace-loving freedom fighters, albeit they were camped out at Maidan in a tent that they named "Don't Give A Fuck" and claim that they weren't violent and don't want to cut Russian throats.

    So they were camped out in Kiev just for a lark? No throwing things at the cops: no Molotov cocktails, no missiles, no beatings? Just sitting in their we-don't-give-a-fuck tent strumming their guitars and dreaming of Western values and freedom and Eurodisney etc.?

    I think they're bullshitting and the Grauniad jackanapes falls for their bullshit.

    Interestingly, they are also so peacefully behaved and law abiding that one of them advises that they should remove their Maidan gear lest they be turned back at check points.

    By whom? The Moskali occupiers, the "Russian militia" that Tin-Tin reports as lurking around in the east, or their own Ukrainian law enforcement agencies or military?

    marknesop April 17, 2014 at 9:35 pm
    Just propaganda. Everything in the news now is just spin, aimed to push the reader toward a conclusion. I don't doubt there are west Ukrainians who want to keep the country together and bear Russian-speakers no ill will, but none of those people is in the government and the phony government still – after all that's happened and all the incredibly stupid mistakes it has made – is committed to making Ukraine do as it wants, signing an ironclad agreement with the EU no matter what it costs the country, and pandering to its Banderite base which, like it or not, is in the west of Ukraine. Things started to slip out of control when they passed the anti-Russian law, and all the taking it back and soft speeches in Russian by the mayor of Lviv cannot change it. The EU and the United States are determined to get control of Ukraine and every time they have a setback such as the desertions of Ukrainian troops, they just dig their heels in harder and publish a lot of we're-winning propaganda to buck up the cheering section at home. Any rumours of their having been routed, and that victory against them has been achieved, are premature because they are in it to win it and are not giving up on their dream of a NATO Ukraine.
    yalensis April 18, 2014 at 2:04 am

    These Catholic Banderites were dispatched from Kiev Maidan to Donetsk to "demonstrate" and "prove to the world" that not everybody in Donetsk is pro-federalism.

    (Having said that, it is true that places like Donetsk are not as monolithically "pro-Russian" as, say Crimea. That's why a referendum is needed, to show the true numbers.)

    In addition to these Banderites sneaking into Donetsk, another of their latest provocations is a false-flag operation in Donetsk aiming to "prove" that Donetsk Jews are in danger, NOT from the Banderites, but from the pro-Russians!

    Apparently, some provocateur printed a flier putatively in the name of the "Donetsk Peoples Republic", demanding that all Jews in the region register with the authorities.
    Donetsk protesters laugh away the provocation. The Jews themselves are not fooled for one second, they know exactly who is who.
    But the Western MSM is running like crazy with this false flag, even John Kerry professed his "horror" that Donetsk could be so "sickeningly" anti-Semitic.

    John Kerry, please don't force me to re-post those images of how the Banderites treated Jews in Lviv in 1941. My stomach is not strong enough to view them once again.

    April 18, 2014 at 2:15 am
    More on that anti-Semitic "false flag" and other CNN reporting on Ukrainian situation.

    I was surprised to see a couple of pieces from CNN in which the stringer, Nick Paton Walsh, who is stationed in Donetsk, started reporting truthfully and didn't "get with the program".
    I saw one piece where Wolf Blitzer, who is stationed, I believe, in Washington DC, is asking Nick leading questions, like "Are the Jews in Donetsk scared that they are under attack by these pro-Russia demonstrators?" [not exact words, something to that effect]
    And Nick replies, something like, "No, and I spoke to the main Rabbi here, and he says the Russians and Jews have always gotten along okay, and they don't believe this flier is genuine…" etc.
    Whenever Wolf prompts Nick for a desired response or propaganda meme, Nick tends to float off the reservation (to use Kirill's term). Good for you, Nick! An honest reporter is a rarity, especially with a major Pindostan news network.

    marknesop, April 18, 2014 at 10:24 am
    I would not be surprised if the U.S. was either behind it or had foreknowledge of it – Kerry has been around long enough that he knows better than to express "horror" on behalf of the United States at something that was just shoved in front of him and he can't even read for himself.

    This is all about switching the attention of a gullible public away from the anti-semitic west and onto the purportedly-anti-semitic east, brushing the operations of Right Sector with magical dust that makes them crusades in the name of righteousness – especially in conjunction with allied ops by

    The Grauniad which humanize the Right Sector as just nice-looking boys who want to stand up for what's right. It's just "The Face of the Syrian Opposition" with different faces.

    [Apr 19, 2014] Inside the 'Donetsk People's Republic': balaclavas, Stalin flags and razorwire by Luke Harding

    Luke Harding with his neocon lies again...
    Apr 19, 2014 | The Guardian
    Prini Tor 19 April 2014 8:30pm
    "On Thursday, Russia, Ukraine, the United States and the EU hammered out a deal in Geneva to de-escalate the six-month-old Ukraine crisis. It was agreed that all illegal groups would end their occupation of official buildings and give up their weapons. Some 48 hours later, however, the separatists who have grabbed a string of municipal premises across the Donbass region, with the capital in Donetsk, had not budged."

    Geneve agreement was not only Eastern Ukraine groups ending their occupation of buildings - but whole Ukraine ....

    So what about Maidan ? Is it empty ?
    Also junta should leave Rada and Turchynov the presidential palace ... They have occupied those places illegally. When will Luke Harding tell us how is it going there ?

    MathEnglish

    So the people in Eastern Ukraine without weapons are 'militants', whilst the Molotov cocktail, gun toting Maidan folk are 'protestors'.

    Face it Luke, the US/EU have brought this crisis on themselves by fomenting a putsch/uprising against the democratically elected government when it wouldn't play ball and sign their exclusive trade pact, and now suddenly it's all Putin's doing.

    As if the cheer leading politicians had never been handing out cookies on the barricades whilst fomenting their $5 billion putsch/uprising.

    How, if it's OK for those in Kyiv to take over government buildings when they feel they are being ignored, it's not ok for those in the East.

    The biggest lesson this has served is to show us the propaganda machine of the Western press. All this condescending moralising by people who backed all the previous blunders in their from-on-high editorials, has been exposed for what it is.

    You will notice that a majority of people talking sense in the comment stream are not painting the same picture as the western press. You will also notice that the majority of recommendations are for comments expressing a disgust with the hypocrisy of our leaders.

    Watching Obama make his Brussels' speech was surreal. There he was droning on about Democracy and Freedom of choice and blah blah blah, whilst those in attendance displaced their attention onto their phones, and all the while not mentioning any of the many elephants in the room regarding his own country's descent into Orwellian normality, or the many millions of lives ended as a result of American corporate imperialism.

    You present Russia as an oligarchy, but America is the ultimate example of one. All the dough in the hands of a bus full of people, neo-con wingnuts ranting outright lies to an ever more brainwashed public.

    Scipio1 -> MathEnglish

    The fact of the matter is that Harding is not an investigative journalist seeking out the truth, but basically a propagandist, whatever he might believe to the contrary. Okay, so he wants to be part of the Russia-bashing fraternity, that is his prerogative, but please don't us expect to be drawn into his cold war mindset and political obsessions. He has obviously got an enormous political axe to grind and a very large chip on his shoulder, judging from his book title.

    He views the world from the US neo-con paradigm, which itself is a type of religious fundamentalism akin to radical islam. Essentially the belief is 1. America is good and a force for good, and everything it does is right. 2. America should therefore assume global leadership by force if necessary - including regime change. 3. The bad guys who stand in the way of freedom, democracy and the American way, must be neutralised. These rogue states are (a) Iran, (b) Russia and (d) China. They are the impediment to the neoliberal paradise which awaits mankind. 4. Uppity little states like Iraq, Libya, Syria, who cannot be won over to the American way (even if they were once aligned to it, as Saddam was) must be systematically smashed up.

    And so a string of failed states are being created from Libya, Egypt, Iraq, Afghanistan and now perhaps Ukraine.

    This has all resulted from the neo-con takeover (of which Ms Nuland is a prime example) of US foreign policy in the US State department and the Pentagon.

    Ok course none of this implies that everything is rosy in the garden in those countries mentioned. But that does not of course stop the accusation of critics being 'Kremlin trolls' 'Putin bots' and the rest of the silly epithets. But of course this is a standard debating trick when it is difficult to counter the facts and issues raised.

    Nabaldashnik -> Scipio1

    Essentially the belief is

      America is good and a force for good, and everything it does is right.

    1. America should therefore assume global leadership by force if necessary - including regime change.
    2. The bad guys who stand in the way of freedom, democracy and the American way, must be neutralised. These rogue states are (a) Iran, (b) Russia and (d) China. They are the impediment to the neoliberal paradise which awaits mankind.
    3. Uppity little states like Iraq, Libya, Syria, who cannot be won over to the American way (even if they were once aligned to it, as Saddam was) must be systematically smashed up.

    A perfect summary of the US foreign policy.

    Beckow

    "...denounced the leaflet as a hoax and a "complete lie". Its provenance remains a mystery."

    It remains a "mystery"? Really? It is such an obvious hoax that most of the media dropped it in embarrassment. How can Luke Harding suspend his journalist training and instincts in order to use it again? It devalues the rest of the piece.

    The government in Kiev was overthrown by people who lost the last elections: Tymoshenko lost, so did Arsenyuk (7% in the last presidential poll). There was clearly a documented meddling by Western agencies, but Ms. Nuland's tape is curiously missing from Western reporting. This is half-reporting, half-truths and in effect really just endless propagandizing while calling the other side propaganda with no attempt to bridge the reality gaps. That is the way to escalation that hurts everybody.

    What we need is real, old-fashioned, neutral reporting. Are we ever going to see it? Or is "our side" functional journalism now the way West decided to do its mains stream media?

    How are the people in Kiev "legitimate" and the ones in Donetsk not? Are self-serving double standards so ingrained in Western media that theya re willing to suspend all reason, all logic?

    Bill Grau Beckow

    reading different sources is a way of getting a better picture of what is going on, like opposing views from different parties and interests.

    !despite the anti-propaganda against it, I found RT more balanced in their reporting than most mainstreaam US news organs.

    ?!The Guardian reporting of the Ukraine crisis is very weird, this is all I can say. But allowing CiF makes up for some balance.

    Amy Newman Bill Grau

    RT is government sponsored and created. They're a propaganda machine. I read them to literally get 'Russia views' but they're extremely one sided.

    MathEnglish Amy Newman

    And the corporate US/EU media and state-sponsored BBC aren't engaging in propaganda or pushing the specific, exclusive trade-agreement/IMF agenda that will see them of socialising debt and privatising profit by grabbing land in Ukraine?

    What was most revealing was that RT reported the fact of the Ashton phone call in which the Estonian foreign minister stated he'd been told that the sniper killing in Maidan was possibly a false flag, whilst the US/EU were conspicuous by their silence until being forced to mention what, if it was the other way round, would've been trumpeted from the floor of the UN as a pretext for a US led invasion.

    The US/EU media were also the same when it came to reporting on the Right Sector thugs bashing the tv director, where, again, if it was the other way round it would have been running round the clock on CNN.

    Bill Grau Amy Newman

    Most of our mainstream news are a propaganda platform for the NeoCon NeoLiberal status quo, and since that status quo is the West's governments' line, I cannot see a difference as far as motives are concerned.

    .reading both allows one to interpolate a quasi medium of veracity.

    whitja01 Beckow

    Too true about the state of western journalism on ukraine. hoaxes are regularly presented as fact, e.g. the paper 'requiring Jews to register in Donetsk' or the 'lieutenant-colonel of the Russian army instructing police in east Ukraine' who turned out to be a local undertaker fired from his job. The western papers may 'sometimes' print the refutation. often they do not. then another paper, or even the same paper, will use the supposed incident to 'prove' Russian involvement, without mentioning the refutation. an old friend of mine, the internationally reputed journalist, P. Sainath, referred to much of the western (and Indian) press as 'stenographers of power'. is this just laziness, lack of funding for good journalism, or yet another expression of corporate power over newspapers. In India, there is now 'paid news', as corporates have advertisements presented as real stories. I hate to say, but with some notable exceptions--e.g. the NSA revelations-- the Guardian is becoming or has become the similar to the rest. ...and the drumbeats to war continue.

    Beckow Amy Newman

    BBC is government sponsored and created. Are they a propaganda machine? Most Western media heavily depends on either government or corporate sponsorship - thus it is not "free". Maybe we should forget about the "free media" illusion and focus on who actually gets closer to describing reality as is.

    RT is a mirror-image of Western media. They are one-sided and they are selective, but not anymore than Western media. In Ukraine they have been closer to reality, maybe because they are very familiar with it. Maybe because the reality actually in the case of Ukraine supports RT editorial position.

    In any case, Western media claims some divinely given right to have an information monopoly. So we should hold them to a higher standard. They keep on pointing to RT as a justification for their own biases and shortcomings, but it is not comparable. RT is a minor player not available in most of the West, it is intentionally marginalized. RT also identifies itself as what it represents. To hide behind RT to justify one's one shortcomings is dishonest and rather desperate. Western media should stand on its own, that's supposedly their tradition. What happened to it in Ukraine and Russia?

    MathEnglish Beckow

    RT is a paragon of journalistic integrity compared to Fox News.

    frankenberry Beckow

    If the East Ukrainians are in the right, why don't they go to Kiev and organize their own anti-Maidan there?
    Maybe because they don't have enough followers?

    Beckow frankenberry

    Are demonstrations only allowed in the capital? Ukraine is divided: east is Russian speaking, west (with Kiev) quite nationalistic. You don't have a democracy with competing street theater, you go with the election results. That is a fundamental democratic principle.

    In the last elections east prevailed (slightly over 50%). The western Ukrainian demonstrators overturned that with US and some EU help. That is a definition of undemocratic behavior, and would be anywhere in the world. Your suggestion that they fight it out in "Maidan" is undemocratic, and frankly a bit crazy....

    Scritze Beckow

    "It remains a "mystery"? Really? It is such an obvious hoax that most of the media dropped it in embarrassment."

    Yeah, sure, life was such a bed of roses if you were Jewish in the USSR.

    ToKnow101 Beckow

    Excellent comment ... past time for all of us to calling Bullsh't on all of the rotten misinterpretations, and bent rhetoric ...

    When polls indicate that better than 70% of Eastern Ukrainians consider the current president illegitimate, that's news, and it needs to be reported even if it's politically inconvenient ..

    Carmen Catherina George Amy Newman

    The very respected Robert Parry begs to differ, His comment is about the US media but applies to the Anglo media.

    "Indeed, in my four-plus decades in journalism, I have never seen a more thoroughly biased and misleading performance by the major U.S. news media. Even during the days of Ronald Reagan – when much of the government's modern propaganda structure was created – there was more independence in major news outlets. There were media stampedes off the reality cliff during George H.W. Bush's Persian Gulf War and George W. Bush's Iraq War, both of which were marked by demonstrably false claims that were readily swallowed by the big U.S. news outlets.

    But there is something utterly Orwellian in the current coverage of the Ukraine crisis, including accusing others of "propaganda" when their accounts – though surely not perfect – are much more honest and more accurate than what the U.S. press corps has been producing.

    There's also the added risk that this latest failure by the U.S. press corps is occurring on the border of Russia, a nuclear-armed state that – along with the United States – could exterminate all life on the planet. The biased U.S. news coverage is now feeding into political demands to send U.S. military aid to Ukraine's coup regime.

    The casualness of this propaganda – as it spreads across the U.S. media spectrum from Fox News to MSNBC, from the Washington Post to the New York Times – is not just wretched journalism but it is reckless malfeasance jeopardizing the lives of many Ukrainians and the future of the planet."

    Robert Parry, Ukraine, Through the US Looking Glass, April 16, 2014

    http://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/04/16-6

    webweasel

    I think Luke is right about the Realpolitik of what will happen next. Russia will not invade as they did in the Crimea, but East Ukraine will surely become the next Trans Nistria. It may be for the best in the long run. Let them look East whilst the rest of Ukraine looks West.

    Nobul webweasel

    "And in Kiev, he suggested, there was a growing feeling that Ukraine would be better off dumping its troublesome eastern provinces and creating a modern European country without them."

    Absolutely right in an Owellian way. As the saying goes, while East Ukraine works, West Ukraine eats. Without the industrial east, West Ukraine would indeed become a "modern European country" of depopulated rural wasteland with its able bodied men providing cheap labour in German factories or fixing toilets in England while its nice young ladies take up residence in Amsterdam or pace the sidewalks of Rome or Paris. All the best to your western dreams!

    lids

    Washington DC is taking huge risks with the cornering of Putin in his own backyard. One suspects that this is rapidly turning into a fight for survival for Putin and his grand ambitions for the Russian Federation. The key to who wins this showdown is the strength of support China is prepared to provide Russia. Aside from full scale war, it is possible for China and Russia to knock out US dollar as reserve currency and thereby provide a body blow to USA which will almost instantly enter a hyper-inflationary depression. Thing is, the level of risk for China is huge, I just can't see the Chinese leadership going for it. Which leaves Putin with a military option. If he chooses a military option he has to do it fast, otherwise the anti-missile systems will be in place and he will be screwed.

    US foreign policy (neocons) taking huge risks, but are they working on the calculation that Putin will shortly become yet another victim of US hegemony?

    And will a cornered Putin be prepared to play every card on the table, including nukes?

    Washington DC, and European leaders are literally playing with OUR lives, it is that serious.

    Euro1970 lids

    Agreed. Putin won't step back, never. If USA/NATO/EU will continue their totally insane policy of putting him in a corner, this story can end only very badly for everybody.

    someoneionceknew lids

    it is possible for China and Russia to knock out US dollar as reserve currency and thereby provide a body blow to USA which will almost instantly enter a hyper-inflationary depression

    Fantasy

    Nobul someoneionceknew

    Let's see in what currency would Russia and China price the gas agreement in May.

    failedsearch lids

    Ukraine is not a Russian backyard. Its Ukrainian - get used to it. And if they decide to become part of the European superstate thats up to them and the EU. Get used to it.

    Nobul failedsearch

    EU did not offer membership nor real money to the Ukraine, so they are not becoming part of the super state of bankrupts.

    Prini Tor

    "With the Geneva agreement already dead, two scenarios were now likely,
    according to Igor Todorov, a professor at Donetsk's university. The first was that Russia would annex the east of Ukraine, as it did last month with Crimea. The second was that Moscow would install a puppet regime analogous to the one in Trans-Dniester, the breakaway Moldovan region next to western Ukraine, he said. "The Kremlin will decide at the last minute.""

    All what Western media has so far claimed to be "likely to happen" has proven to be pure BS. This will not be exception.

    "The US, EU and Kiev say there is overwhelming proof that the Kremlin is co-ordinating the armed uprising using undercover soldiers and FSB agents. Moscow denies this."

    US, EU and Kiev are already famous of their "overhelming proofs" - When they claim they have "evidence" everyone know it is doublespeak and must be understand the other way round.

    SoloRolo Prini Tor

    Could it be that the situation in Ukraine is increasingly coming to resemble another conflict, somewhere in the Middle East? The people of East Ukraine are denounced as "terrorists", their principal crime being a refusal to "recognise" a particular political faction, based some distance away, which is attempting to assert power over them. The difference here is that the "terrorists" believe that they have the backing of a powerful friend.

    neillwa

    The Eastern Ukrainians will stop occupying buildings when they feel that the unelected illegitimate regime in Kiev stop banning the Russian language and persecuting the people in Eastern Ukraine.

    Prini Tor

    "And in Kiev, he suggested, there was a growing feeling that Ukraine would be better off dumping its troublesome eastern provinces and creating a modern European country without them."

    This is hilarious example of ignorance - Western Ukraine has nothing but poorly managed agricultural land. All industry and mines are located east.
    Indeed West- is maintained by East Ukraine, without East Ukraine they will die of poverty.

    Orkney94 Prini Tor

    That's the idea. Poorly managed agricultural land is what Monsanto needs. The khakhols with get rations, thank you very much (the gainfully-emplyed ones).

    roger58

    Russia is playing games with the west when is the USA and EU going to get tough and impose trade sanctions on Russia or is it ever going to impose trade sanctions in the EU Germany is the key exporter to Russia Germany must do more to impose trade sanctions even if it hurts it's own economy and in the UK Russian oligarchs and their stolen ill forgotten gain accounts must be confiscated or frozen
    Putin is making a laughing stock of the west hit the Russians were it hurts the most in their economy

    MathEnglish roger58

    Fact-free debate based on nothing but emotions brainwashed into us by the corporate US/EU propaganda/media machines serving the oligarchs who own them.

    Putin is not making a laughing stock of the West, we are managing to do it very well on our own.

    CodyJoeBibby2014 roger58

    if you hit hard, Putin can hit much harder.

    if Putin stops oil and gas exports to those who sanction Russia, that will be a huge problem.

    good luck finding replacement supplies.

    and good luck defending yourself without fuel for your tanks and jets.

    Purtin has the ultimate power. control over the world's energy, defended by nukes.

    IrishManInParis

    While it's all a bit parochial to me, I can understand how these border people's would be suspicious of Ukrainian nationalism - especially now that full-on neo-Nazis are sharing power in Kiev - at the behest of America. Have none of you studied what Ukrainians did in WW2? Their cruelty even shocked their German commanders. As for the Stalin nostalgia, maybe it's all part of their WW2 pride. And in fairness, Stalin, bad as he was, did sort of win the war.

    We, here in the "West," just aren't making enough of an effort to see things from their side of the fence. Plus, America is as guilty as Russia for fomenting the tensions and spreading propaganda. The key difference being that Ukraine is on Russia's doorstep.

    SeekAndYouShallFind

    'Warsaw and Washington may announce the deployment of additional American troops in Poland next week, Polish Defense Minister Tomasz Siemoniak said following a meeting with his US counterpart, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel at the Pentagon on Thursday.

    He added that Poland would play a leading role in the NATO build-up of troops in Eastern Europe, "under US patronage," the Washington Post reported. He added that the US needs to "re-pivot" back to Europe from Asia to counter "Russian aggression" in Ukraine.

    Siemoniak earlier called on the Pentagon to deploy as many as 10,000 American troops in his country. Poland already hosts some 100 to 150 US military servicing a battery of surface-to-air Patriot missiles, which was deployed in 2010 to give Warsaw more confidence for hosting elements of the NATO anti-ballistic missile shield in Europe.'

    How come the Guardian haven't mentioned this? Unless I've missed it.

    I cannot imagine the Polish people will be happy with this? If it does kick off (I don't think it will btw), they may as well paint a bullseye on the country. This kind of request is bound to cause increased tension in the area.

    Paul Flanagan

    Puppets on a string playing a lead role in Putin's show of anger and wanting to belong.

    lids Paul Flanagan

    Plenty of puppets in this game. And the string pullers are behind the curtain in DC.

    But some puppets get paid more than others.

    BuddhaFree

    This article reminds me of Soviet Union style propaganda. And I thought it's dead. The only difference it's coming from the western source now.

    The world is so black and white to Luke.

    What's wrong for them to get autonomy? US has states and each one of them has it's own set of laws. We choose our state representatives, nobody force us to accept Governor from Washington. It didn't break us but made USA stronger. Self governing is the only peaceful way out to satisfy both sides and leave Ukraine intact.

    TrueUkrainian

    Luke, care to tell us about the Kiev "headquarters" of the Right Sector or about the hijacked hotel from where someone shot at protesters?

    I am sure that you would have found an opportunity over the last few months.

    Just for a balanced view on things. I am sure a lot of people are desperate to hear how democratic and highly educated these freedom fighters are.

    P212121

    On-line polling data for Ukraine and different regions are quite different from what has been reported by the Guardian:

    http://modsite.by

    In a nutshell, for the whole Ukraine about 70% would vote for federalisation. In Lugansk about 66% would prefer to join Russia. Odessa - 51%.

    I wonder what is the real picture ...


    Ahhbisto P212121

    More like this:
    A poll by the Democratic Initiatives Results released 1st March 2014
    Foundation and the Kiev International Institute of Sociology presented on Monday found that when asked if they wanted Ukraine to reunify with Russia, 33% from Donetsk approved, as did 24% in Luhansk and Odessa and 41% in Crimea.
    "But in Ukraine as a whole, the number of people who would like to have one state with Russia is no more than 13%," said Volodymyr Paniotto, head of the Kiev International Institute of Sociology. He added that only 16% of Russians wanted unification.

    lids Ahhbisto

    Good, then they should have no objection to a referendum on federalism.

    Sadly, it is all noise coming out of Ukraine,until then..

    P212121 Ahhbisto

    A poll by the Democratic Initiatives Results

    Yeah, sure... Give it a pompous name, and people will believe whatever it says... which reminds me of Syrian Observatory of Human Rights... Seriously, I would like to know what the reality is; but having seen the bias in every source I have read, I am not sure what to believe. Thanks for your input though.

    lids Ahhbisto

    Oh and another thing, maybe you should look a little closer at the NGO organisation who carried out the poll you quoted above?

    I quote, from their own web site.

    "One of the foremost examples of DIF political influence is its activities in the sphere of European and Euro-Atlantic integration of Ukraine. DIF provides government and members of civic sector with crucial information on the issue, such as results of public opinion polls, analytical materials and policy recommendations. Having started as a civic organization advocating Ukraine's accession to NATO 14 years ago, nowadays DIF gained reputation of authoritative analytic center and influential player in developing and implementing NATO informational campaign.

    You ought to be careful who you accuse of ignorance around here..

    esevato

    Donetsk People's Republic... Really? Certainly sounds kind of silly to me. But then again, who am I to judge them. There is no accounting for taste, for desires and inspirations .

    The Eastern parts in the Ukraine contain the old Soviet industrial area,‭ ‬especially the Donetsk-‭ ‬Basin.‭ ‬The EU has no need for it.‭ ‬It's mostly outdated and,‭ ‬at any rate,‭ ‬it would just be competition for their own industries‭ ‬so they don't really need it.

    The‭ "‬West‭" ‬really only really wants the Western parts of Ukraine.‭ ‬The best farmland in Europe is a magnet for EU investors,‭ ‬farmers,‭ ‬corporations and speculators.‭ ‬If they take over,‭ ‬the efficient farming techniques will send millions of former peasants fleeing to the EU.‭

    Those who manage to escape will find jobs as day laborers,‭ ‬in various menial jobs,‭ ‬in the hotel industry,‭ ‬and in red light districts, etc. in the EU. Fairly bleak prospects.‭ And the wave of immigration will likely strengthen the hand of the xenophobic attitudes in the EU. ‬Nice going,‭ ‬Kiev.

    More: Merkel made sort of a laughing stock of herself when she accused Putin of changing post-‭ ‬WW2‭ ‬borders.‭ ‬Really,‭ ‬Frau Kanzellar‭? ‬Those borders have changed plenty since‭ ‬1990.‭ ‬Remember the Soviet Union,‭ ‬East-‭ ‬Germany,‭ ‬Yugoslavia,‭ ‬Czechoslovakia and even Kosovo‭?

    The Ukraine is no different from those mentioned:‭ ‬it is a multiethnic,‭ ‬artificially created state with no history,‭ ‬and no national identity to keep people together.‭ ‬In other words,‭ ‬it is not a real nation.‭ ‬It could be,‭ ‬but not by forcing it on them. Only by strict consensus. Pulling them in two different directions might be the end of the country.


    Orkney94

    Graun censors have a field day today. Removed my comment because of reference to Orwell... Pathetic "news"paper it has became...

    Try again :

    Minitrue dispatch to graun :

    "Inside the 'Donetsk People's Republic': balaclavas, Stalin flags and razorwire
    Pro-Russian militants say they have no intention of leaving their eastern Ukraine base, and insist Moscow is with them"

    rewrite :

    Inside the Evromaidan': candy and flowers.
    Pro-Western protesters say they have no intention of leaving their central Ukraine base, and insist the West is with them

    Winston missed the "Stalin flags" part, forgetting to replace with "ribbons and daisies". Demoted on Easter - tough shit. Luke will do a much better job.

    CodyJoeBibby2014 Orkney94

    nice one.

    fuck the Minstry of Truth.

    At least Winston Smith was against this.

    spiceof

    Luke Harding: " Ukraine's democratically elected parliament, at least, had voted in a new government. Even members of Victor Yanukovych's Party of Regions had supported it. Had anybody voted for him?"

    Somebody should explain to Mr. Harding the true position : A TRUNCATED version of Ukraine's democratically elected parliament voted in the new government.

    The intimidation towards those deputies loyal to the deposed government was obvious for all to see, including physical attacks caught on BBC cameras. It's hardly surprising then that those in disagreement would not be present on the day of the voting.

    Perhaps the same sort of voting should take place at Westminster in future, a mob could attack a few Liberals, making sure they were intimidated enough not to turn up for a vote of confidence on Cameron's coalition and hey presto, the government would fall. I wonder if Mr Harding would approve of such tactics?

    wilddolphin spiceof

    I would say burning Trafalgar Square with tent city and loads of trash with bunch of Cuban/Russian/NorthKorean politicians snatching microphones from each other on stage to call people to arms will be quite.... modern democracy ... Lavrov can hand over cookies to anarchists... Millions of pounds changing hands in briefcases.... Cameron Mansion with Golden Restroom trashed... Mmmm..

    zigagiz

    A suggestion to the Guardian's editorial team:

    For a more complete perspective on Ukraine events, send Luke Harding to Lviv, for a report on a march "dedicated to the warriors of division SS Galicia" that will be taking place there on April 28.

    More details can be found at the Right Sector's spokesperson page:

    https://www.facebook.com/olena.semenyaka?fref=ufi

    Caroline Louise zigagiz

    A march in Ukraine supporting the Ukrainian division of the SS is not something any media outlet should be allowed to overlook. Personally I think the US/EU paymasters will move heaven and earth to make sure this suicidal PR nightmare doesn't happen or isn't reported.

    If it goes ahead people need to make sure the news gets out.

    wilddolphin Caroline Louise

    They do it for 12 years, Nazi marches. Everybody get used to it. Same happens in Latvia and Estonia


    calange56

    Why is the Guardian removing so many comments that are either critical of Luke Hardings reporting and/or question the anti-Russian, Western narrative of the 'facts are sacred' Guardian?

    frankenberry calange56

    Are they?

    Caroline Louise frankenberry

    Yes!

    I've counted at least half a dozen taken down in the last couple of hours, including one absolutely brilliant and careful point by point analysis of all Harding's omissions and "terminological inexactitudes"

    I actually re-posted half of it, but now my re-post has been taken down too. If anyone has a copy maybe the could consider posting it again?

    archer71728

    Compare this piece by Harding with the other report om Ukraine ("Kiev pledges not to attack separatists...") in today's Guardian, the former frankly anti-Russian, the latter far more fact-oriented. I have some doubts about the objectivity of the latter's public opiniion poll (it comes from a Kievan "sociology institute" nobody ever heard of before) yet I think it's probably generallly accurate.

    No, most (supposedly) pro-Russian Ukrainians reject annexation because they know it willl dangerously escalate tensions. But, at the same time, they reject the present Kiev regime. And that regime, by rejecting any attempt to re-assert its control of the rebellious eastern cities by force, shows that it's not interested in civil war either. But US/NATO on one side and Russia/Putin on the other, seem to be more interested in aggravating tensions 9and each other..

    But things aren't quite that symmetrical. Washington insists that the rebels surrender unconditionally (quit the town halls, hand over weapons, yield power to Kiev's governors, etc) while Moscow, while condemning the present Kiev regime as illegitimate, makes no such demands. Also, while part of the Kiev regime rejects force, its fascist wings, Svoboda and Right Sector, do not.

    So the more aggressive US/NATO policy seems to be more in tune with the extreme right of the Kiev regimee than with its more dovish center. So, while both sides have acted provocatively, it is undeniable that it's US/NATO that's trying to crowd Russia not the other way around. And the Ukrainophones and Russophones could probably find ways to accommodate each other peacefully but for our interference.

    Orkney94 -> 20 April 2014 2:16am
    Luke has committed plagiarism on (what else), Russia, for which the Graun profusely apologised :
    The following was printed in the Guardian's Corrections and clarifications column, Monday August 20 2007 "

    The introduction to the article below included three paragraphs that were substantially similar to paragraphs contained in the introduction to another, earlier, article, published in May, in the Exile - an English-language newspaper based in Moscow. We should not have used material from the Exile in our introduction without quoting and crediting it properly and we apologise to the Exile for this error."

    more here :
    http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=8637&IBLOCK_ID=35
    http://exiledonline.com/luke-harding-porn-read-the-guardians-apology-to-the-exile-over-luke-harding-plagiarism/

    No wonder Luke's work nowadays consists of reworking own material, in line with the ever-changing Minitrue directives :

    "Protesters are holding three administrative buildings in Kiev, including the building housing the city administration. With temperatures in Kiev falling to as low as -20C at night, the buildings are vital for the opposition's ability to continue street protests and maintain pressure on the government."

    (Thursday 30 January 2014 14.39 GMT)

    Happy Easter, Luke

    BorninUkraine

    As usual, Harding's piece is short on facts. To compensate, it is long on lies, insinuations, and propaganda. Nothing unexpected.

    What is unexpected (at least for me) is that most people forget that this is about Ukraine, and concentrate instead on the power play of "the big boys": Russia against US and it's poodle EU, which alternates between fits of courage with shrill barking and fits of fear with peeing all over itself (sorry, this comprehensively describes foreign policy only of Poland and Baltics, dignified countries have more varied repertoire).

    Yet the subject matter is Ukraine. Let me mention a few facts that those who have no inside info and only read Western media never heard of.

    First, Volhynia Czechs, who lived in Ukraine since the second half of 19th century, through wars and revolutions, asked Czech government to help them repatriate soon after the coup in Kiev. Link to Czech source:

    http://www.praguepost.com/eu-news/37842-ukrainian-czechs-want-to-return-to-cr

    Second, the township of Strelkovoe, that was on the Ukrainian side of the border with Crimea on the Arabat Spit (following today's law in Crimea, here is its name in all three official languages: Ukrainian: Арабатська стрілка, Arabatska strilka; Russian: Арабатская стрелка, Arabatskaya strelka; Crimean Tatar: Arabat beli), forced border guards to move to the other side, removing itself from Herson region of Ukraine and joining Russian Crimea.

    Third, the people in many border villages clandestinely dig up and move border posts to "move" their village from Ukraine to Russia.

    Fourth (some already know this), the great majority of Crimeans actually voted to join Russia. As of today, out of 1,400,000 Crimea residents eligible to receive Russian passports only 3,000 (~0.2%) declared that they want to remain Ukrainian citizens. Most of the Ukrainian servicemen stationed in Crimea also decided to switch sides (even Kiev liars acknowledged this).

    While you might understand why someone wants to move from Ukraine to Czech Republic, a lot of people ask themselves why would anyone want to join Russia. No matter what Putinbots say, this is a perfectly valid question. And the answer is most damning for Vicky "f… the EU" Nuland, CIA, the whole Obama team, as well as deservedly f…ed EU. These people have no illusions about Russia or Putin. They do not expect paradise, and do not think that someone would give them something for nothing (in contrast to Euromaidan morons). All they want is a modicum of sanity, so that they can work honestly, feed their families, live in dignity without fear that a Nazi with an automatic rifle will shoot them. They want to move to Russia because after the coup Ukraine has become a madhouse. This drives the protest in the South East. Most of these people want protection from Western Ukrainian Nazis, and they would rather live in unrecognized but sane "Donetsk Republic" than in a stark staring mad Ukraine.

    There is another valid consideration for the South East: they want to keep their jobs. The industry there would simply collapse without trade with Russia. What's more, they remember. Older people reading this would remember Gdansk Shipyard in Poland, the birthplace of Solidarity. It survived decades of Soviet oppression, providing up to 20,000 jobs, but now struggles to survive the bliss of Euro-integration, employing about 2,200 and being on the brink of bankruptcy (see http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fb59fc58-674f-11e3-a5f9-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2zNp3iK8d ). People in the South East don't want that to happen to the factories they work in, and therefore are against EU.

    IMF is another thing these people don't want, in contrast to Kiev puppets that have no choice but to obey their masters. If you look at the track record, in terms of destructive power IMF beats Soviet planning every day of the week, being somewhere in between Soviet Gosplan (State Planning Authority) and a nuclear bomb. Industry is what IMF ruins first, simply to eliminate competition of their stakeholders.

    The people in the South East simply want to honestly earn their wages in a sane country. Unfortunately, after US/EU engineered coup, this means getting the hell out of Ukraine. I hope that Ukraine I was born in and love will come to its senses, throw away Nazi scum and thieving oligarchs, and become a sane country. However, I live far away, whereas people who actually live there cannot afford long-term hopes. So they vote with their feet, taking their homeland with them (recent polling results http://modsite.by/allresult/ ). That's what happened in Crimea, and is likely to happen elsewhere, unless Kiev clowns and Galician fascists installed by the CIA are kicked out of power very soon.

    The last point: if Kiev thugs or their US masters really believed that most people want to remain in their Ukraine, they would be the first to organize referendums. The fact that they are so scared of them tells everything.

    Caroline Louise BorninUkraine

    Make sure you keep a copy of this, because it probably won't be here long

    Doug Salzmann

    Honestly, Graunfolk, the combination of the preposterously slanted coverage and the heavy-handed moderation of BtL contributions here. . . well. . . this is not a journalistic moment, I think, of which Scott would be proud.

    reptile0000

    Does it not get boring for Luke Harding to stay obsessed with Russia and write same cr*p over and over again? I wonder if he's on some sort of personal mission or secretary working for American forigen office? He's commitment to manipulate and distort information is truly remarkable.

    [Apr 19, 2014] Ukraine crisis: Obama says Russia has 'hand' in 'disruption and chaos' by Tom McCarthy & Mark Tran

    Readers decimate Guardian coverage... See also Ukraine: From EuroMaidan to EuroAnschluss

    Apr 19, 2014 | theguardian.com

    Malkatrinho -> nic nic

    You forgot to say something about "Nuland", "Ashton", "Fascists" or the "Warmongering West".

    coffeegirl -> Malkatrinho

    Thanks for doing it for him. Keep repeating lest people forget about those nasty bastards and Western warmongering.

    Jeremn -> markstallard

    There are some subtle clues about who was in the "military base". It was a detachment of national guards: "the national guard base". "the national guards opened fire". Not troops, but Kyiv's paramilitaries mostly formed from Right Sektor and largely feared as extremists in the east and south.

    markstallard -> Jeremn

    That may well be the case, but my point is that whoever was in there would be a fool to negotiate when a) a mob with petrol bombs and guns is encroaching on your base, and b) the evidence of the past few days is that if you try to negotiate with the mob you will be beaten.

    atavistic -> markstallard

    b) the evidence of the past few days is that if you try to negotiate with the mob you will be beaten.

    I'd like to see that evidence ...

    the reason the Ukraine is resorting to its newly created National Guard is because the professional servicemen are refusing to shoot civilians and others are transferring to the anti-government side. this is why Jeremn's comment is important!

    savernake1

    Battle of Kharkov I

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Churchill_Mk_IV_Charkov_červenec_1943.jpg

    Battle of Kharkov II

    https://twitter.com/belangerjf/status/456399228731146240/photo/1

    FelonMarmer -> Malkatrinho

    Nope. Dunno their names or the countries they come from, and I caveated my post with the origin of the quote and my uncertainty of bias unlike other posters on this issue who post obviously biased rumours as fact.

    I've searched for info but not found any yet. I've found this...

    Mikhail Malyshev told reporters that 50 politicians and observers from 21 countries – including the United States, Israel, France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Greece – have been registered to attend the referendum

    ...but it's from a Russian site so obviously that won't satisfy you.

    This is from NBC News...

    There are 135 independent observers from 23 countries in Crimea to monitor the referendum vote scheduled for Sunday, in which citizens will decide whether to join Russia or remain an autonomous region in Ukraine.

    ...but again no details of who or where they are from.

    I think its fairly obvious that nations opposed to the outcome of the referendum would not have sent observers. The OSCE turned up before being invited (as they refused to acknowledge the authority of the interim leadership which called the referendum) which is why they were refused entry.

    Also Russia vetoed the draft UN resolution declaring the referendum illegal, as they have the power to do so as a permanent member of the Security Council, so technically the referendum was legal in the eyes of the UN.

    Interestingly, Wikipedia has this nugget of info about the OSCE who were prevented from entering Crimea to do their monitoring...

    Before the U.S. presidential elections of November 2012, the OSCE announced its intention to send electoral observers to Texas and to other U.S. states. In response, Greg Abbott, the Attorney General of Texas, sent letters to U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton threatening to arrest OSCE officials if they should enter electoral premises in Texas and break Texas law.[37] and to the OSCE

    In truth. I think that the legal cases for and against are probably so convoluted and open to bias that there will never be a answer that satisfies both sides of the argument. It seems reasonably clear that a significant majority of the Crimean population where in favour of being part of Russia. As long as those not in favour are not in any way persecuted then I think it is better to move on.

    Eastern Ukraine now is still ongoing, no referendum here, but surely a properly constituted and monitored one would be preferable to civil war?

    atavistic -> ChipRock

    actually there are plenty of reporters on the ground sending back coverage and interviews ... they are simply not published on this site because it does not fit the militarist / war-mongering line.

    vazelas99

    The BBC reports that the protesters in the Mariupol clashes were throwing petrol bombs, so the shooting must have come from only one side, the Ukrainian armed forces Others would call it excessive force, a war crime perhaps. For the US it is justified action. Democracy!

    vazelas99 -> vazelas99

    "About 300 separatists attacked a military unit in Mariupol near the Azov Sea, throwing petrol bombs. Troops opened fire, killing three, Mr Avakov said."

    Malkatrinho -> vazelas99

    Is throwing petrol bombs a traditional Eastern Ukraine greeting?

    vazelas99 -> Malkatrinho

    No, but name one European country that has used guns and the army against protesters throwing petrol bombs. Did the UK? France? Italy? Spain? Greece? Yanukovich did, and he was condemned. Now do we applaud these guys?

    Ozzicht -> vazelas99

    Indeed, we all know how peaceful and democratic the Russian-backed mobs are. What am I supposed to do if you attack me with (potentially lethal) Molotov cocktails? Lob you back roses and carnations to show you how happy I am to have petrol bombs thrown at me? Even assuming, for the sake of argument, that the attackers weren't using their Kalashnikovs as well?

    We have seen plenty of images of the Russian gangs in Eastern Ukraine. If they take up arms against the state, they must expect the state to fight back. The response from Kyiv has been extremely restrained so far. Ask the Chechens how Russia deals with an uprising.

    vazelas99 -> Ozzicht

    So the protesters in the London riots who were throwing petrol bombs should have been shot by the army, you are saying, because they are potentially lethal. Ok!

    wilddolphin -> vazelas99

    According to federalist forums, Mariupol was a provocation from Right Sector, no legitimate movements were there.

    Scipio1 -> Malkatrinho

    If my memory serves me well I think it started in Kiev/

    konpeki -> vazelas99

    You're comparing these people to the London riot protesters?

    BackyardBeek -> vazelas99

    The main story in the Guardian is saying the attackers fired first, were given warnings and continued. Then the guards opened fire.

    awbmaven -> vazelas99

    "with guns and petrol bombs" is says.

    Malkatrinho -> vazelas99

    name one European country that has used guns and the army against protesters throwing petrol bombs.

    They're not "protesters", they attacked a military base with petrol bombs.

    How do you think Mr Putin would react if Chechen separatists did the same to a Russian military base? Organise a big picnic?

    spiceof -> Ozzicht

    Your hypocrisy is outstanding, when the Kiev crowd were doing it you were supporting them.

    spiceof -> Malkatrinho

    They learned the technique from the fascists you support in Kiev.

    vazelas99 -> awbmaven

    The Guardian is quoting the minister, Arsen Avakov, for the guns and petrol bombs. The BBC just said petrol bombs, NOT quoting a Ukrainian minister of defence who might be tempted to lie.

    KyKaH -> vazelas99

    Militia: "In response to the military ordered to disperse. When participants defense approached, the soldiers opened fire. To protect the citizens of Mariupol used broken trolleybus. I saw wounded in the legs, abdomen, shoulders. Then he started to throw grenades with gas. It was all happening in the heart of the city of Mariupol. We say: let the ambulance, where two people".

    Arsen Avakov, the head of the MIA of Ukraine: "After the military part of the attackers threw incendiary bombs and Molotov cocktails and opened fire on sentry - netguardian opened warning fire. Then, after a warning, in accordance with the Charter - when repeated attack - fire. The alarm was raised by all police units of the Ministry of internal Affairs of Mariupol. The joint efforts of armed police and nazvanii - after a short battle, napadovska gang was dispersed mainly localized and disarmed".

    wightangler -> Malkatrinho

    no a western european one as well and occasionally one used by protesters against armed security forces over elite g8 summits in chicago and vancouver as well as annually in northern ireland -and by the kiew western ukrainian protesters - so its pretty universal .

    Yakob -> Malkatrinho

    LOL - pot? kettle? black?

    So whatever you disagree with is "shite"? It seems to be the case looking at your comments

    Must do better, otherwise people would assume you have an agenda, which I'm sure you don't ;)

    timbercrown -> Yakob

    And behaviour like his doesn't get removed if it's supporting the Guardian's narrative.

    Wittmont

    "Resentment at shrinking empires"?

    Maybe Russia and the UK should form a club. What do you say Mr. Garton Ash?

    atavistic -> Wittmont

    Shrinking fortunes? Maybe the US and the EU should form a club ... oh... but they have ... MANY! TTIP is simply the latest is it not? Beware ... its not for the benefit of anyone but the very rich!

    Ishowerdaily

    Fascism and civil war in the heart of Europe, driven by nationalists all thinking that there little plot of land is the greatest in history of the universe, and the super rich looking to make a quick buck.

    And everybody else just wanting to get in with live.

    Don't shoot, desert.

    Bogoas81 -> Ishowerdaily

    Eastern Ukraine is hardly the "heart" of Europe - culturally and economically, it's a backwater that's been either under direct Russian control or else influence for centuries.

    Neither can there be said to be a civil war. It might become one. But civil wars don't have single-digit casualties.

    Ishowerdaily

    National guard members fired first then?

    Can't get the regular army to shoot so they've sent in svoboda thugs with guns in brand new uniforms.

    When this is over every single one of these little bastards will be up on war crime charges.

    vazelas99 -> Ishowerdaily

    Unfortunately they will not, as they have the support of the US.

    Jeremn -> Ishowerdaily

    Yes, the identity of the armed men in the "military base" is barely mentioned. Luhn's report says "the national guard base". Harding calls them Ukrainian troops. Other reports say the "national guard fired".

    The national guard are paramilitaries largely formed from Right Sector.

    TamLin -> Jeremn

    They are specially trained militia known as the Chickens of Kiev.

    nonfiltrι Troebel -> Ishowerdaily

    But what on Earth were they expecting throwing molotov cocktails at the base? And the "protesters" came at them, not the other way around.
    They received warning shots, and they kept on. I would be wondered if there weren't some hundreds kalachnikov in the crowd.
    You want the men in the base to wait and die?

    BumfreyHogart

    I love how Arsen posts stuff on his Facebook wall and the media just runs with it. We opened fire on protesters, but this after really really warning them. There were about 300. I wasn't there. Click like!

    Lifesaparty -> BumfreyHogart

    Government by Facebook. Because they have no idea of how to run a parliament - oh, wait they do not have the parliament! Bad luck that.

    monkie -> Lifesaparty

    Government by Facebook. Because they have no idea of how to run a parliament - oh, wait they do not have the parliament! Bad luck that.

    yes but we expect these people to lie, the real issue is pulitzer prize winning members of the fourth estate not only enabling them but actively engaging in propaganda that is so transparent that it is laughable.

    laughable if it did not make them jointly responsible for the death of people caught up in events like these.

    Vladimir Kamensky

    In fact, the army shot unarmed citizens. Now Russian volunteers from Russia, no one will be able to stop.. Ukrains nationalists seized after the 1917 revolution native Russian land ...

    The present Nazis revolution gives the full right south-east former Ukraine to make a return stroke. Russian spring does not stop!
    Чумачечая Весна!!!

    LiquidSnake -> Vladimir Kamensky

    Cool story bro

    moncur -> Vladimir Kamensky

    In fact? Unarmed citizens trying to occupy a military base? Is that what you can do in Russia?

    crystaltips2 -> moncur

    You should probably ask the citizens of Grozny what happens if you try a bit of separatism inside Russia. It doesn't end well.

    Finite187 -> Vladimir Kamensky

    What a nuanced understanding of Ukraine and the various parties involved..

    luuke furtado

    Kerry n Ashton....Foreign policy chiefs .......Bwhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

    norfolkkl

    Nothing that has come out of the interim government has proved accurate or trustworthy to date, so why is The Guardian running with the headline "Pro-Russian fighters killed at Ukraine military base"? At the moment we do not know who was killed or in what circumstance; ridiculous but entirely predictable that The Guardian runs another story without any independant corroboration.

    jgbg -> norfolkkl

    Sergei Sobolev of the Fatherland party said yesterday that nobody in the army had switched sides, that they had only put Russian flags on their vehicles as a ruse to fool the enemy and that we would see the results of this in a few hours. Here we are, about a day later and this is reminiscent of Comical Ali, Saddam's Information Minister.

    luuke furtado

    If Luke Harding said so, it must be so.......:-)

    KenDoddsDadsDogDead -> luuke furtado

    Yesterday we were told the APCs were surrendered in Kramatorsk then driven to Slavyansk, today we're told they were taken in Slavyansk. A detail, I know, but when you're a journalist in such a volatile, complex situation at least get the basics right.

    atavistic -> Finite187

    why are we to think that these are any different from the troops that we know were already on the ground in the base in Crimea?
    and anyway, he gives his answer quite clearly - in the Crimea he is convinced that 100% backed the federation; in the East he thinks its about 50% so he is pushing, as he has been for weeks, for a political solution in the form of a referendum.

    when it is necessary to ignore the truth to make a point, it is indeed propaganda!

    Lifesaparty

    Russia accuses Kiev of waging 'war on its own people'

    I too, say that the illegal regime in Kiev is waging a war on its own citizens; I need no fancy quotation marks and such.

    iseethroughyou -> Lifesaparty

    It is waging war and losing. Many troops sent t the East have flat out refused to act against the unarmed protestors. Kiev has lost control of the armed forces. From a blogger who summarised a speech by Julia Tymoshenko (she of the "nuke the Russians in the East" fame):


    The Russians have sent in their agents to attack the authorities in the eastern Ukraine and seize the weapons caches to then give them to their sympathizers. What the Russians want is to scare us to accept their plan: to turn the Ukraine into a Russian colony. We have to form a new military, a parallel army of volunteers which will beat them back. Then we will negotiate with Putin from a position of force. Our new military will never allow the occupants to get to Kiev. We will engage in a pubic advertisement campaign to ask for volunteer contributions to pay for it. We have to be strong!

    This blogger also gives some interesting insight into whats happening in the East http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/

    Jeremn -> Lifesaparty

    It was a big mistake for Kyiv to stigmatise the entire region by calling it an anti-terrorist operation.

    I suppose the restoration of constitutional order didn't sound so good coming from an unconstitutional government.

    awbmaven

    Register or be deported, Jews, says pro-Ruskies: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/donetsk-pro-russians-order-jews-register-be-deported-supporting-kiev-rule-1445111

    ScottGrooves -> awbmaven

    Thanks for that link, I was skeptical but IBT is reputable and they have one of the flyers.

    Let's see what the trolls say about this.

    That's frightening. Here we go again.

    jgbg -> awbmaven

    It's a fake, designed to stir up animosity between the Russian and Jewish communities of the region. It sounds like something that would go down well with Oleh Tyahnybok and supporters of his Ukrainian Nazi party. A party who now have ministers in the Ukrainian government thanks to the recent coup.

    nonfiltrι Troebel -> jgbg

    Ukrainan nazi party... They are not they ones known to threaten minorities. Unlike the Russian in the East of the country crying they were threatened, which was proven by the UN human right as being false.
    Fascists calling other fascist. The world is upside down..

    ScottGrooves

    17 April 2014 8:55am

    This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.

    coffeegirl

    I don't know about this "Separatists attacked a base of the Ukrainian national guard in an eastern city overnight"...it could be a real thing but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a staged provocation given yesterday's fiasco and no blood being spilled. How would one justify NATO encircling Russia if the crisis in Ukraine will be solved peacefully? The US/NATO wouldn't like it, they need 'toughness' from Ukrainian government, they need blood.

    ElvisInWales -> coffeegirl

    Very good point regarding a staged provocation, and one worry that crossed my mind is that the Kiev authorities will send a unit mainly consisting of very young men to their deaths and lay the blame at those protesting in the east of the country, We know they are "up" for shooting their own supporters in an attempt to garner legitimacy so who is to know?

    Every soldier in the Ukraine army should simply refuse orders until there is stability and Ukraine shows some clear direction in how it wishes to get itself out of this mess, one thing is for sure! the present mob in Kiev are not the ones to be talking too.

    nonfiltrι Troebel -> coffeegirl

    "Nato encircling Russia"
    Lol. They are on 1% of their frontiers. Can't call that encircling.

    They staged provocation in a part of the country that they don't control? How do you do that?

    coffeegirl -> nonfiltrι Troebel

    Broaden your horizons Encircling Russia with US Bases It was written in May 2011, 3 years prior to Ukraine crisis.

    ->

    Skywithclouds -> nonfiltrι Troebel

    Do you understand the concept of nuclear missiles and MAD?

    vivianvivian

    That's from the minister's Facebook. I can"t trust everything he said. We need to hear from witness to tell us who started it first. Clearly those soldiers are not very restrained. Note that none of the soldiers were killed or injured.

    Jeremn -> vivianvivian

    They seem to have been national guardsmen, normally in Guardian speak they would be the regime's paramilitaries. Somehow morphed into being soldiers.

    JacobPetterson

    All covert operations in Ukraine has not secrets to the world.
    CIA Director John Brennan secretly arrived in Kiev on April 12, but the mystery was already in the media on the same day in Ukraine and Russia . In Kiev, the Director of the CIA gave the green light for the operation to neutralize the Russian invaders by Ukrainian military and mercenaries Greystone Limited. In Youtube has a lot of evidence that Ukraine had Greystone. After leaving the CIA director, began operation in Ukraine sent troops against the Russian invaders, but all around the world know that the Russian invaders in Ukraine is not, in Ukraine the people revolted against the new Ukrainian authorities, this information is not only aware of the CIA, is simply ridiculous . As a result, local civilians suffered 12 wounded, 1 killed, none of the Russian military had not seen since they were not there and then the Ukrainian army sided with the people. The result is zero . A failing operation, CIA intelligence zero .
    CIA gets paid for such children fighting, how can you be so blind ?

    Frances56 -> royalcourtier

    It's not about the wants or desires of the Ukrainian people though. Its the collision between two world powers: a re-emergent Russian state, and a declining and increasingly desperate western one. Everyone else is just caught in the middle between the tug-of-war between the two.

    ElvisInWales -> royalcourtier

    Very good idea, so good that it could potentially lead to the destruction of the planet, which seems a tad unfair giving that we are only one species out of billions that live on this earth.

    Russia has big fuck off bombs and has the capability to turn the USA into "ash" I take it you are not American as by and large they do not want any more military interference in any country and as nuland said "Fuck the EU" The US admin should pull out of NATO, save themselves a huge wedge of cash and then leave the EU to the EU.

    Oh and well done for slipping in Nazi Germany and aligning it with Russia ffs.

    jgbg -> royalcourtier

    NATO and the USA have indicated that they will not engage in any military action in Ukraine.

    Putin has dragged Russia back into a state horribly reminiscent of Nazi Germany, circa 1938.

    Whilst Russia certainly has problems with extreme right wing politics, it is the coup in Ukraine which has put Nazis into ministerial roles. This the first time that Nazis have held ministerial positions in a non-military European government since that of Hitler. It is a disgrace and the primary reason why the EC president has declared that Ukraine is not fit for EU membership.

    spiceof -> royalcourtier

    You must be sitting in you silly little desk, lobbying for some right wing lunatic American fringe. If you want to fight go get your gun and get a passage to Ukraine.

    No way should Nato intervene, if they do they'll face an internal insurrection in Europe.

    PariahCarefree

    Why not just hold a referendum?

    nic nic

    The bad news is that law enforcement is really very passive, and in some ways even cooperating with the pro-Russia protesters.

    Oh no!!!! this is the worst news of all is possible!!! this means that we will not see the rivers of blood and corpses "Pro-Russian" Russian-speaking citizens of Ukraine.. damn!! why I bought popcorn??

    PeterBrit

    "Ivan Lozowy, a Kiev-based political analyst" So what are his credentiasls for being quoted in the Guardian? What's his political profile?

    He seems determined to put the worst possible spin on opponents of the unelected Kiev government. And that's the trouble with Western coverage and western policy-making. Yes, some of the pro-Russians are probably bad people and yes Russia probably is stirring the pot, but there are also clearly genuine grievances in the East, the Kiev governemt is of dubious legitimacy and Ukraine itself has been a hole for the last 20 years that people may well want to leave. But all we mainly get from media and politicians and NATO is Kiev regime = good opponents of it = bad. When did our media and politicians become incapable of deeling with subtely, complexity and nuance? It's a really dangerous trend that has helped cause the disasters in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya and could do teh same in Ukraine. but with even worse consequences.

    Dessie Deratta -> PeterBrit

    Unfortunately the Western public is not innocent in all this. They opposed all those wars but kept re-electing politicians who waged them (eg Blair).

    The vested interests behind the US/NATO military-industrial complex are immense and the connected oligarchs (called "billionaires" in the West) control the mainstream media - but the average punter cares more about the Premiership and the Royal Circus than the risk of WW3.

    Maybe it's time to recognise that billionaires and mega-corporations are not compatible with democracy; in either East or West.

    PeterBrit -> ScottGrooves

    OK fair enough. I have. He's not really a full-time political analyst, he's actually a political activist, analyst and businessman. He was born and raised as an American citizen in America, and didn't speak Ukrainian very well.

    " In the prelude to the Euromaidan, Lozowy accused Tabachnyk of favouring the Russian language over Ukrainian, ignoring the Holodomor and Ukrainian national heroes, promoting a pro-Soviet point of view, and wasting money on low-quality textbooks.[4] After the 2014 Ukrainian Revolution, he criticised Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada Oleksandr Turchynov for his veto of a bill which would have repealed earlier legislation on languages in Ukraine and made Ukrainian the sole state language at all levels.[5]

    So how objective is he do we think? LOL

    Driscoll -> Dessie Deratta

    "Unfortunately the Western public is not innocent in all this. They opposed all those wars but kept re-electing politicians who waged them (eg Blair)."

    Blair was the most successful Labour PM ever and was elected 3 times with huge majorities notwithstanding his record on getting involved in foreign wars. Then he was forced out of power by his party and now no one wishes to be associated with him or mention his name "It's a funny old World !" as Lady Thatcher once said

    VladimirM

    "...the Ukrainian national guard..." It's Pravy sector people uniformed and armed, the idea of Kiev rulers who do not trust the military.

    AllMixedUp

    "Here is President Obama telling CBS News that it will cost Russia if it carries on "destabilising" Russia."

    Oh, Graun.

    escoppycoppy -> AllMixedUp

    To be fair, Russia is one of the last countries on earth that you'd expect to be advocating (with military force, no less) ethnic separatism. I'd be surprised if the long-term result of this was a more stable Russia.

    AllMixedUp -> escoppycoppy

    Russia is one of the last countries on earth that you'd expect to be advocating (with military force, no less) ethnic separatism

    How so? Georgia and Chechnya would probably disagree.

    Russia, since the fall of the USSR, has been a hotbed of ethnic strife, with the spree murders of immigrants by organised neo-Nazis punished only as 'hooliganism' until around 2010. There are around 100,000 active neo-Nazis in Russia (it accounts for between 40-50% of self-identifying neo-Nazi skinheads worldwide). Those same neo-Nazis have been instrumental in the anti-gay violence of late.

    Putin's "mouthpiece", Vladimir Zhirinovsky, is an outspoken anti-Semite and neo-Nazi (despite it being revealed he has Jewish lineage) and founder of the far-right LDPR.

    escoppycoppy -> AllMixedUp

    Georgia and Chechnya would probably disagree

    Exactly. Given Russia's own ethnic divisions, it's odd to see its government apparently supporting the right of ethnicities to separate, and I'd expect some of this to come back around in time. Hence Russia may be destabilising itself.

    PeterBrit

    "Here is President Obama telling CBS News that it will cost Russia if it carries on "destabilising" Russia".

    Wow, those Russkies are so evil, they're even destabilising themsleves now

    Kal El

    When is America going to be sanctioned for its destabilsation efforts in Ukraine ?

    Victoria Nukeland, Yatsenyuk and Klitshko haven't been seen in days now, perhaps they are all being waterboarded in a secret location for their failures.

    Dessie Deratta -> Kal El

    Unfortunately they are merely hatching a new plan now that Putin has ruined plans A, B, D, E, F, G.............

    zchabj5

    And the circus continues.

    We cannot believe either side, but particularly the new regime in Kiev. They are ridiculous, not only in their ineffectuality but in their rhetoric which has no basis in reality.

    AllMixedUp -> zchabj5

    I hope your handlers pay you well, tovarish.

    zchabj5 -> AllMixedUp

    My bank balance is overflowing my dear paranoid friend.

    VladimirM

    Putin's press conference.

    http://live.russia.tv/index/index/channel_id/82

    zchabj5

    I really hope the new Ukrainian regime falls quickly so that law and order can be resumed with a legitimate democratic government that represents all Ukrainians, not just a subset.

    AuObserver -> zchabj5

    I have a good idea. How about calling an election, say next month?

    zchabj5 -> AuObserver

    Yes but there has been disgraceful beatings and intimidation by the new government and their allied forces.

    norfolkkl

    Why have the Ukrainian security services been so ineffectual? Perhaps because they sympathise with the grievances of the local population? But no, The Guardian finds an American-born Ukrainian analyst on Radio Free Europe, who calls the demonstrators "separatists and terrorists". Well there's a surprise. How long can The Guardian keep on with this spin?

    Dessie Deratta -> norfolkkl

    As long as they are instructed to do so by their Corporate Masters.

    That raid on their HQ by the State Police obviously had the desired effect.

    Lifesaparty -> norfolkkl

    Unfortunately not only the Guardian. As a matter of fact there is sometimes an article with the opposite perspective in this paper. In many countries, like in Sweden, both Public Service and all other media is full of the USA-press releases.

    So in that way, the Guardian is on the positive side of objectivity.

    TamLin -> Lifesaparty

    As always, the Guardian is simply being itself, the guardian of the narrative it's masters weave.

    zchabj5

    20th century propaganda is no longer working on Western European populations. They recognise that although the side not fighting for western interests are far from perfect, they are the lesser of a pretty ugly evil in terms of a significant Svodba and Timoshenko and her party axis.

    alazarin

    What really sticks in the craw is the constant drip-drip-drip in the MSM about Russian meddling in Ukraine and not a single word about American meddling. Heck Vicky NuLand even admitted that the US had spent 5 billion dollars on their little Maidan Sqaure uprising. [OK, it was spent over several years but no doubt laid the groundwork for Maidan].

    Nuland, Ashton, Kerry, Brennan and Hauges' visits to Kiev are reported with the hushed deference accorded to the mighty doing good works. Imagine the uproar if Lavrov or the heads of the Russian military and FSB decided to pay a whistle-stop visit to Donetsk!

    The media reporting is biased. It is the US, EU & NATO who have been meddling remorselessly in Ukraine. Sometimes I suspect that the Americans go around the world as agents of chaos to give their business backers random opportunities for profit.

    Jeremn -> alazarin

    Or Polish meddling. Here is a report on how activists were being trained in Poland on managing riots, resisting riot police and target practice

    http://nie.com.pl/13-2014/tajemnica-stanu-tajemnica-majdanu

    annieruth

    Getting ridiculous now: "Here is President Obama telling CBS News that it will cost Russia if it carries on "destabilising" Russia."

    VladimirM

    "Putin says Kiev did not try to establish a dialogue with the Russian-speaking population in eastern Ukraine."

    "Instead, they sent oligarchs as governors and put in jail local activists."

    http://top.rbc.ru/textonlines/17/04/2014/918626.shtml

    spiceof

    Why si the State Department putting a damper on expectations? It's as though they are hell bent on not trying to find a compromise solution.

    A Federal Ukraine, with autonomy for all regions (within one country) and guaranteed rights for all minorities seems to be a possible solution. A sensible way out, probably too sensible for the Washington war lobby which seems more interested in escalating the conflict in order to hurt Russia, than solve the crisis in Ukraine.

    zchabj5

    Putin answered questions from the general public. For over 4 hours and does it semi regularly.

    can't imagine Obama or Cameron would be able or willing to do that.

    alazarin -> zchabj5

    The wheels would come off what little that remains of Cameron's 'Big Society' if he were too attempt a 4-hour Q&A on a regular basis. Personally I'd love to see that slimeball and his sidekicks come unstuck in a big way.

    Alice Ponomareva -> alazarin

    I haven't read it I will, suppose it will be published online somewhere the answers. There was a special phone number open for Crimeans who were expected to ask Putin a lot about their new life, interesting, what the concerns are and what were his answers.

    PeterBrit

    Why have the Ukrainian security forces been so ineffectual? Ivan Lozowy, a Kiev-based political analyst, who was in Luhansk where pro-Russia activists briefly took over the government office, had this to say to Radio Free Europe, Radio Liberty.

    The Guardian is quoting someone who, according to Wikipedia is not really a full-time political analyst, he's actually a political activist, analyst and businessman. He was born and raised as an American citizen in America, and didn't speak Ukrainian very well.

    " In the prelude to the Euromaidan, Lozowy accused Tabachnyk of favouring the Russian language over Ukrainian, ignoring the Holodomor and Ukrainian national heroes, promoting a pro-Soviet point of view, and wasting money on low-quality textbooks.[4] After the 2014 Ukrainian Revolution, he criticised Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada Oleksandr Turchynov for his veto of a bill which would have repealed earlier legislation on languages in Ukraine and made Ukrainian the sole state language at all levels.[5]

    So how objective is he do we think? LOL

    alazarin -> PeterBrit

    It just ocurred to me that this Ivan Lozowy guy is probably some low-level CIA asset that was briefed on what to say and wheeled out at the appropriate moment. His statemement fits too closely with the 'official' US / EU / NATO narrative about Ukraine.

    JMWong

    So the Western media is not horrified by the fact that three Ukrianians have been murdered by the illegitimate government of Kiev. Instead, the murders are reported like a normal course of event.

    zchabj5

    Why is an American, a Brit, a Russian and a Ukrainian part of a recent putsch deciding the future of millions of Ukrainians.

    And they say colonialism is dead.

    alazarin -> zchabj5

    And the fact that it's glossed over in the MSM as being a part of 'the natural order of things'! Sometimes you find the meaning not by reading the words or reading between the lines but in the actors delivering the lines.

    alazarin

    Hah! So much for the Economist being on the right side of history with their article proclaiming coal to be the fuel of the future. If we keep using coal at the present rates we won't have a future! And that's before we get to the main course: Russia.

    Oh yes, 'evil' Russia gobbling up its neighbours. How about an article mapping out America's conflicts around the world?

    zchabj5 -> alazarin

    Or the IMFs structural adjustment policies of loan paying for impoverished nations to wealthy ones, killing how many millions likely?

    Kyleandrew

    LeMonde: Ukraine-Next?

    LeMonde's Moscow Correspondent Marie Jιgo puts forward the question in today's Thursday's edition: Ukraine: Vladimir Putin wants to control, weaken or break the country?

    Marie reports that a source close to Russian diplomatic circles says:

    What is happening in eastern Ukraine has some similarities to the capture of the Crimea. But in reality the situation is very different. Military is taking a risk here. In addition, annexation of Eastern and Southern regions would be a considerable burden on the budget. That is why it is better to federalize, exercise a protectorate, bet on the decomposition of the country."

    The report considers the current Second Stage of the Ukrainian Crises. In the first stage, direct out right annexation of the Crimean Peninsula. The second stage is in preparation of Moscow's the establishment of a Ukraine in decomposition and disarray in advance of scheduled May 25 presidential elections.

    The Russia's destabilization operation in Ukraine is to make it impossible to hold the presidential election scheduled for May 25. The appearance of a legitimately elected president of Ukraine will give a powerful brake to the geopolitical ambitions of Vladimir Putin. He is desperate to build in Eurasian Union – - the flagship project of his third term."

    Moscow is all smiles at the present, says Marie. Ukraine's restraint borders on impotence. Vladimir finds the response of the West encouraging to his ambitions: "He feels free to go as far as he sees fit." His direction is to wash away the humiliating collapse of the CCCP : USSR, a sensitive wound at the heart of all Russians.

    Syria was the first stop of the great return of Russia on the world stage, Ukraine is the second. Everyone is now wondering what will happen next."

    Kyle Andrew Brown
    Millennial Publications
    Washington, D.C.

    alazarin -> Kyleandrew

    Projection or what, Kyle? It's your country, America, that has been deeply involved meddling in Ukraine. But please, do keep digging yourself a hole in the ground. Would you like a shovel?

    someoneionceknew -> Kyleandrew

    You're awesome, Kyle!

    Now fuck off.

    norfolkkl

    Soldiers who laid down arms during military operation against protesters in east Ukraine will face a tribunal, coup-imposed acting President Aleksandr Turchinov said.

    "The 25th paratroopers brigade, the personnel of which demonstrated cowardice and laid down their arms, will be dissolved. And the soldiers responsible will be held accountable in court," Turchinov said at a parliamentary session

    And we are still backing these people?

    GM Baum -> norfolkkl

    Why not? The media (tip hat, guardian) has spent MONTHS dehumanising anyone who isn't on board with the Kiev coup? It's being presented as "three militants die in clash". Avoidng the emotive word "killed". And we are never told how, whereas which the Maidaners we are fed every imagined gory detail.

    paleologue -> norfolkkl

    Decimation awaits you lads. If you won't kill your fellow citizens your neo-nazi government will kill you. The Fuhrer Turchinov has spoken.

    spiceof

    The "great cover" of the Economist is propaganda at its worst, but you can hardly expect any better from a publication that still believes the neoliberal model is the best thing since sliced bread.

    For some twit to tweet describing it as "great" just shows that he and The Economist share the same neo con imperialist mind set.

    zchabj5 -> spiceof

    They don't even publish the names of authors. So shady.

    GM Baum

    It's terrible … firing on their own people like that. Yats and his government need to be sent to the Hague for trial for crimes against humanity. Why didn't they listen?" I'm sure Biden was on the phone again urging them not to use force for God's sake, I mean, he must have, he's not a hypocrite or anything, is he?

    paleologue -> GM Baum

    He could not be a candidate for the Hague because only slavs and africans end up there.

    Skywithclouds -> moncur

    Armed rebellion on Maidan - inevitable casualties, what did they expect. From that point of view care to comment?

    You are calm because it's not your relatives and friends killed

    zchabj5

    First tragedy, now high farce, NATO and the USA personnel today are of a much lower calibre than generations past, who were not that great themselves.

    Jeremn -> zchabj5

    Edward Lucas is the Economist's editor on things Russian. You often see him ranting in the Daily Mail about how we should stand up to Putin. A very strange man, yet in charge of editorial policy in a leading political magazine. Sigh.

    [Apr 18, 2014] Pro-Russian groups to stay put in east Ukraine until referendum takes place

    How about calling them the Anti US/EU Protesters or confederates, rather than pro Russian Separatists
    The Guardian

    Pro-Russian groups in eastern Ukraine have accused the authorities in Kiev of violating an agreement to defuse tensions across the country, adding that they have no intention of leaving buildings they have occupied.

    ... ... ...

    At a press conference on Friday, however, Denis Pushilin, the self-styled leader of the Donetsk People's Republic, said his supporters would stay put until a referendum on the region's future status took place. The current pro-western government in Kiev was illegitimate, he said.

    Referring to Ukraine's interim prime minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, and president, Olexsandr Turchynov, he added: "We understand that everyone has to leave buildings or nobody does. Yatsenyuk and Turchynov should vacate theirs first."

    ... ... ...

    At the barricade Vladimir Pakhomovich, a former miner, said: "We are not Moscow or Kiev. They do not command us. We are just here to defend our people. Until we get a referendum, we do not intend to leave."

    Pakhomovich said he was aware of the agreement made in Geneva but said he did not feel beholden to Russia's foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, or the president, Vladimir Putin. "We are prepared to ignore Lavrov. Why should we listen to him?" he said.

    Trevelyan

    The pro-democracy protesters in Kiev are not occupying the Rada or requesting Ukraine be occupied by foreign forces - there is a slight difference between them and the gunmen in eastern Ukraine.

    EbbTide64 -> Trevelyan

    The pro-democracy protesters in Kiev are not occupying the Rada

    Yes they are! Svoboda and Right Sector neo-Nazis are both involved in the new government.

    Caroline Louise -> Trevelyan

    The "pro-democracy" demonstrators" in Kiev didn't need to be "pro-democracy". Ukraine had a democratically elected president, which the "prodemocracy" demonstrators deposed and replaced with a junta.

    The "pro-democracy" demonstrators in Kiev most certainly did occupy the Rada and continue to do so. They also also drove out most of the MPs from the east of the country, or intimidated them into voting for the new junta.

    Are you actually claiming all the protesters in the east are "gunmen"?

    Why not at least try to look evenhanded? All this bigoted reportage is having the opposite effect to the one intended. Most people are basically decent. They don't like to see unfairness and double standards.

    glit00

    Hey Luke, why don't you write an article about all the building and public areas of Kiev occupied by the Right Sector and other nut jobs?

    Mike_Crimea

    The US media consistently lies for the government. Reuters continues to report, falsely, that Russia invaded and annexed Crimea. The Washington Post ran an obviously false story planted in the paper by the Obama regime that the massive protests in former Russian territories of Ukraine are "rent-a-mobs" instigated by the Russian government.

    Not even Washington's stooges in Kiev believe that. Officials of the Washington-imposed government in Kiev acknowledged the need for some autonomy for the Russian-speaking regions and for a law permitting referendums, but this realistic response to widespread concerns among Ukrainians has apparently been squelched by Washington and its presstitute media.

    http://www.opednews.com/articles/Washington-Is-Humanity-s-W-by-Paul-Craig-Roberts-Government_Rights_Russia_Surveillance-140414-37.html

    vazelas99, 18 April 2014 1:41pm
    Maybe the protesters still occupying the buildings have legitimate reasons to still keep fighting:
    Kiev: Military operation in Ukraine southeast to go on despite Geneva agreement

    Or as KyivPost puts it:

    SBU ramping up security operations in Kharkiv Oblast, plans to cordon off separatists in Donetsk; insurgents in Donetsk refuse to surrender occupied buildings

    So dear Luke of the Guardian, what guarantees do the protesters have to retreat from the occupied buildings if Kiev doesn't care about the agreement at all and is still going after them?

    And why aren't you reporting on the Kiev government NOT upholding its part of the agreement for de-escalation? As stated in the actual agreement document:

    All sides must refrain from any violence, intimidation or provocative actions

    And the continuing security and anti-terrorist operations ARE intimidating and provocative actions!
    Manolo Torres
    The CIA chief in Kiev over the weekend (busted!) and suddenly the media starts to switch from the the already tendentious term "pro-Russians" to the more aggressive and telling post-modern classic of "anti terrorist operation". I would love to to hear LordHealey and the rest of the insistent, fiery and confident NeoCon commentators regarding this video.

    No need for "kremlinbot" propaganda, this former CIA agent most likely has a broader perspective than any of us, victims of the implacable Russian propaganda that you get in London΄s Tube. It will take you 6 min. There are many more, serve yourselves.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3ioJGMCr-Y

    [Apr 18, 2014] Ukrainian oligarch offers bounty for capture of Russian 'saboteurs'

    Apr 17, 2014 | The Guardian

    Igor Kolomoisky, a Ukrainian politician and energy tycoon, offers $10,000 of own money for each agent caught and separate rewards for their weaponry

    Stewby

    Tryin their hardest not to let peace break out it seems. The whole bounty scheme worked out great in Afghanistan where they sold every foreigner they could catch to the Americans, so this will be similar I'm sure. How can you prove your innocence in a case like this anyway?

    Theodore McIntire -> Stewby

    The Geneva Joint Statement (which I would assume included the parliament-appointed Ukrainian acting Foreign Minister Andrii Deshchytsia) included this:

    "All sides must refrain from any violence, intimidation or provocative actions."

    Since Igor Kolomoisky, is the Kiev appointed governor of the Dnipropetrovsk region, either he needs to rescind his statements to be in compliance with his national government or they need to rein him in. This could be litmus test #1 for the "peace in our time" Geneva Joint Statement.

    Vaska Tumir

    Saboteur?! Is that what Mr Luhn wants us to believe "moskali" means?!?!

    Moskali, the word on that poster, is the Ukrainian term for Russians, the equivalent of calling a Jew a Kike.

    Lolada Lolik -> Vaska Tumir

    Tshhh u talking against new party line .

    Theodore McIntire -> Vaska Tumir

    Wow

    http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/kolomoisky-promises-a-reward-for-fighting-against-separatists-343970.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/1992/11/26/opinion/l-when-ukrainians-call-russians-moskali-068092.html

    With the internet it took me a few minutes to independently check and find confirmation what your saying has merit. Anybody else come up with a different understanding?

    Caroline Louise

    So currently the EU and US are supporting a regime that offers bounties for killing its own citizens.

    Beyond tragic isn't it.

    DougalEvansCoe

    Ukraine doesn't deserve this fate, but at least it will serve as a warning to all the other countries in the Central and Eastern European region: If you choose internal squabbling and domestic strife over national unity, the West through its proxies will appoint international terrorists like Kolomoisky to rule over you and murder your people.

    LeDingue -> DougalEvansCoe

    Greetings Mr Dougal!

    "Ten thousand of Mr Brennan's dollarys for your police station... make good sauna for relaxing of Pravy Sektor boy scouts on holiday."

    It does appear to be degenerating into a "can the cia control the hooligans, mafiye clans and oligarchs?" cowboy rodeo. And "no" seems to be the answer. The Ukrainian military was complaining to the US that all its comms had been compromised and could they have some swanky (free) kit, please. It looks like Brennan dropped off the duffel bags of cash and left.

    My concern is that Kerry, McCain and the civil war planners will simply regroup after the latest climbdown... economic and cyber warfare on Russia is gathering pace.

    Hopefully in the hiatus Svoboda can be persuaded to actually govern... but that would mean prolonged direct negotiations with the eastern Russian speakers. I wonder if Victoria is still so pleased with her choice of Ukrainian government..

    JanZamoyski

    Also on Thursday evening, activists from the "people's republic" occupying the administration building went to the Donetsk airport to demand negotiations with airport and border control officials. They told the Guardian that they wanted to prevent any military flights from landing, as well as ensure that Russian citizens could arrive freely.

    More tourists ? You would think that 9 million of local ethnic Russian population would be more than enough to show the discontent ?

    wilddolphin -> JanZamoyski

    There never was any discontent whatsoever in this region until Kiev was taken over by junta.

    Metronome151 -> wilddolphin

    You mean there was no discontent, or at least no physical manifestation of that, until Russian armed forces seized Crimea.

    What we then saw on several occasions was a handful of men wearing the same combat gear without insignia and carrying the same arms that were on the ground in Crimea, going in first to seize buildings then handing over to armed locals.

    Putin admitted today that Russian forces were on the ground in Crimea (ie outside of the bases) hence Russia was lying as were their mouthpieces claiming the contrary. The same lie is now being perpetuated with regards to Eastern Ukraine.

    The bounty therefore would have been better made for any Russian armed forces special ops active in the region ie for the organ grinders rather than their monkeys.

    1eyeonall -> JanZamoyski

    Always room for one or two more, I hope Kiev doesn't get uppity otherwise the 3 legged chair their standing on will break, and the west could be looking up at the sky instead of trying to catch them. The gas bill is a little worrying is Russia going to keep supplying???? If you owed a gas company anywhere in the western world a few months of gas, you had better have a forest in your back garden and a sharp axe . At the start I was sympathetic to the plight of the Ukraine and still am to a point, then I started to read up on the makeup and different areas of the Ukraine, its not so easy to define. Looking at Ukraine's views -finger to Russia but we want free gas - Russia really would be better off by saying bugger off we're changing gas pipes route to Europe. Does the EU need another orphan to tend to, and prop up, HELL NO>

    davidding77

    This is embarrassing: In spite of all the media talks about "Russian agents" in eastern Ukraine, so far not a single one has been found.

    LPBudovski

    Great so the guardian endorses oligarch funded lynch mobs that operate outside the rule of law. I can't serioulsy believe that the writer of this article didn't see any issue with an oligarch offering cash for 'russians'.

    Oleg Volkov

    He's not just an oligarch, he's regional governor appointed by junta: https://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/billionaire-kolomoisky-takes-over-in-dnipropetrovsk-oblast-criticizing-putin-and-yanukovych-338261.html

    So it is coup government saying: we offer bounties for moskals. You can always rely on nazi to drive the point home just when Russia don't know what else words to say to West that is adamantly refusing too see nationalizm all over them.

    Well, nazi thugs already broke agreement back in February within just a few hours of signing. It seem they shit on new one just as well. I only wonder about one thing: will West once again pretend nothing bad is happening?

    BorninUkraine

    As appalling as it sounds, it accurately reflects three key principles of the mentality of Kolomoisky and Nazi government in Kiev:
    1. Killing people is OK
    2. Everything can be sold and bought
    3. My tribe is good, your tribe is bad

    As all Nazis, these are throwbacks to the Stone Age. As all thieving oligarchs this "anti-corruption revolution" brought to power, Kolomoisky converts everything to $$$

    BorninUkraine

    For those who understand Ukrainian:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqhxZ4HCK2w

    For the rest: this satirical video styled as TV advertisement brutally mocks Kolomoisky's offer. It has >125,000 views already.

    The best thing about Slavs, Russians and Ukrainians alike, is the sense of humor.

    If a Russian or Ukrainian does not seem to have any, it is a clear sign that s/he is either severely retarded or mentally ill. This applies to Yats, Tourchinov, Timoshenko, and Co.

    BorninUkraine

    More satire for those who understand Russian or Ukrainian:

    http://durdom.in.ua/public/main/photos/photo_49142.jpg
    http://durdom.in.ua/public/main/photos/photo_49109.jpg
    http://durdom.in.ua/public/main/photos/photo_49177.jpg
    http://durdom.in.ua/public/main/photos/photo_49156.jpg
    http://durdom.in.ua/public/main/photos/photo_49153.jpg
    http://durdom.in.ua/public/main/photos/photo_49056.jpg
    http://durdom.in.ua/public/main/photos/photo_49100.jpg

    Kolomoisky's Privat-bank is already denying that the offer was made

    [Apr 18, 2014] Nato's action plan in Ukraine is right out of Dr Strangelove

    Apr 17, 2014 | The Guardian

    What is certain is that Barack Obama's rapacious coup in Ukraine has ignited a civil war and Vladimir Putin is being lured into a trap.'

    I watched Dr Strangelove the other day. I have seen it perhaps a dozen times; it makes sense of senseless news. When Major TJ "King" Kong goes "toe to toe with the Rooskies" and flies his rogue B52 nuclear bomber to a target in Russia, it's left to General "Buck" Turgidson to reassure the president. Strike first, says the general, and "you got no more than 10-20 million killed, tops". President Merkin Muffley: "I will not go down in history as the greatest mass murderer since Adolf Hitler." General Turgidson: "Perhaps it might be better, Mr President, if you were more concerned with the American people than with your image in the history books."

    The genius of Stanley Kubrick's film is that it accurately represents the cold war's lunacy and dangers. Most of the characters are based on real people and real maniacs. There is no equivalent to Strangelove today because popular culture is directed almost entirely at our interior lives, as if identity is the moral zeitgeist and true satire is redundant, yet the dangers are the same. The nuclear clock has remained at five minutes to midnight; the same false flags are hoisted above the same targets by the same "invisible government", as Edward Bernays, the inventor of public relations, described modern propaganda.

    In 1964, the year Dr Strangelove was made, "the missile gap" was the false flag. To build more and bigger nuclear weapons and pursue an undeclared policy of domination, President John F Kennedy approved the CIA's propaganda that the Soviet Union was well ahead of the US in the production of intercontinental ballistic missiles. This filled front pages as the "Russian threat". In fact, the Americans were so far ahead in production of the missiles, the Russians never approached them. The cold war was based largely on this lie.

    Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the US has ringed Russia with military bases, nuclear warplanes and missiles as part of its Nato enlargement project. Reneging on the Reagan administration's promise to the Soviet president Mikhail Gorbachev in 1990 that Nato would not expand "one inch to the east", Nato has all but taken over eastern Europe. In the former Soviet Caucasus, Nato's military build-up is the most extensive since the second world war.

    In February, the US mounted one of its proxy "colour" coups against the elected government of Ukraine; the shock troops were fascists. For the first time since 1945, a pro-Nazi, openly antisemitic party controls key areas of state power in a European capital. No western European leader has condemned this revival of fascism on the border of Russia. Some 30 million Russians died in the invasion of their country by Hitler's Nazis, who were supported by the infamous Ukrainian Insurgent Army (the UPA) which was responsible for numerous Jewish and Polish massacres. The Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists, of which the UPA was the military wing, inspires today's Svoboda party.

    Since Washington's putsch in Kiev – and Moscow's inevitable response in Russian Crimea to protect its Black Sea fleet – the provocation and isolation of Russia have been inverted in the news to the "Russian threat". This is fossilised propaganda. The US air force general who runs Nato forces in Europe – General Philip Breedlove, no less – claimed more than two weeks ago to have pictures showing 40,000 Russian troops "massing" on the border with Ukraine. So did Colin Powell claim to have pictures proving there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. What is certain is that Barack Obama's rapacious, reckless coup in Ukraine has ignited a civil war and Vladimir Putin is being lured into a trap.

    Following a 13-year rampage that began in stricken Afghanistan well after Osama bin Laden had fled, then destroyed Iraq beneath a false flag, invented a "nuclear rogue" in Iran, dispatched Libya to a Hobbesian anarchy and backed jihadists in Syria, the US finally has a new cold war to supplement its worldwide campaign of murder and terror by drone.

    A Nato membership action plan – straight from the war room of Dr Strangelove – is General Breedlove's gift to the new dictatorship in Ukraine. "Rapid Trident" will put US troops on Ukraine's Russian border and "Sea Breeze" will put US warships within sight of Russian ports. At the same time, Nato war games in eastern Europe are designed to intimidate Russia. Imagine the response if this madness was reversed and happened on the US's borders. Cue General Turgidson.

    And there is China. On 23 April, Obama will begin a tour of Asia to promote his "pivot" to China. The aim is to convince his "allies" in the region, principally Japan, to rearm and prepare for the possibility of war with China. By 2020, almost two-thirds of all US naval forces in the world will be transferred to the Asia-Pacific area. This is the greatest military concentration in that vast region since the second world war.

    In an arc extending from Australia to Japan, China will face US missiles and nuclear-armed bombers. A strategic naval base is being built on the Korean island of Jeju, less than 400 miles from Shanghai and the industrial heartland of the only country whose economic power is likely to surpass that of the US. Obama's "pivot" is designed to undermine China's influence in its region. It is as if a world war has begun by other means.

    This is not a Dr Strangelove fantasy. Obama's defence secretary, Charles "Chuck" Hagel, was in Beijing last week to deliver a warning that China, like Russia, could face isolation and war if it did not bow to US demands. He compared the annexation of Crimea to China's complex territorial dispute with Japan over uninhabited islands in the East China Sea. "You cannot go around the world," said Hagel with a straight face, "and violate the sovereignty of nations by force, coercion or intimidation." As for America's massive movement of naval forces and nuclear weapons to Asia, that is "a sign of the humanitarian assistance the US military can provide".

    Obama is seeking a bigger budget for nuclear weapons than the historical peak during the cold war, the era of Dr Strangelove. The US is pursuing its longstanding ambition to dominate the Eurasian landmass, stretching from China to Europe: a "manifest destiny" made right by might.

    guatemala99

    I too resent the attempt by the USA to dominate the world. Having intervened for centuries in the `New World`, it now seems intent on doing the same in Europe and Asia. For Russia, it must appear like classic encirclement.

    Here in Britain, we suffer from cultural subordination. We must reject the notion that we are the 51st state of the USA.

    intermundia

    This article seems to take Russian propaganda at face value.

    Strummered -> intermundia

    I normally like John Pilger, he's written some terrific stuff, but those where my thoughts too on this occasion.

    aretheymyfeet -> Strummered

    But unfortunately, everything he says is correct. The global agenda, with US as at the head of a global hegemony with Eurasia being the power pivot, the re-alignment of US military to Asia Pacific as well, read US military and political material, they are surprisingly explicit about it.

    FredinSpain

    I somehow don't think Putin will allow himself to be lured into anything by the Americans, he's too shrewd a cookie. Also the idea that they need a new front to use their drones it certainly isn't Russia, they aren't a third world nation.

    It's more likely that the shrewder members of NATO, that's everyone except America and their lapdogs in the UK will desert them, as many did over Iraq.

    Obama will have an interesting visit to China as they have realised they are better off aligning themselves with Russia, as have India. That's probably over half the world's population in that alliance.

    However things are reaching the point where a miscalculation could cause a war, but would the Americans want to lose the bulk of their population to win it and then see those who are left die in a nuclear winter.

    clunky -> FredinSpain

    I tend to agree that Putin is not likely to be "lured into a trap" as Pilger puts it -- as if he knew more about the world balance of forces than Russia does.

    What Putin is trying to resist is encirclement, as his country has done for centuries. It's hard to see what US threats would divert him from that, so the US are always going to get angrily frustrated on that front, especially as they offer no negotiating goodies.

    As for threatening China, the most indebted nation the world has ever seen can force the least indebted? Well, good luck with that. Is this the way the world will end? Very possibly, but the us will be utterly destroyed, taking much of the rest of the planet with it. Go, Obama, go, you have nothing to lose but... everything.

    ABitRightWing

    How dare Ukrainians wish to align themselves with the EU.

    They should do as they are told and stay in their box.

    Just like those uppity South Vietnamese.

    Wittmont ABitRightWing

    The Ukrainians in the East are clearly sceptical of the ultra nationalists and neonazis and obvious stooges for the US and EU in Kiev.

    Who can blame them? Aren't you sceptical?

    aretheymyfeet

    A good piece of clear journalism by Pilger once again. Pilger is one of the few journalists unafraid of telling it as it really is. Most of us who study global affairs recognise the reality Pilger is portraying. Only those who have yet to scratch the surface do not understand what the US is all about.

    shaun

    Excellent article.

    One of the key motivations for the US is money. The Pentagons budget doesn't include "war" funding. That is an "extra" source of income (400 billion?) So when Afghanistan is freed from the US and the war stops, so does the profit margin.

    The move to the Chinese-Japanese area is also based on the recent finding of Oil and Gas under some of the islands that are being contested.

    Who can take the "place" of Dr. Strangelove ? (In a sort of Nobble prize for idiots competition). I would nominate "Murder McCain" or the "Fogh" of war Rasmussen (of NATO). Both would look superb sitting on a missile being dropped somewhere safely.

    derykhouston

    I couldn't agree more with John Pilger's comparisons to Dr. Strangelove. I was thinking exactly the same way and also had just watched the movie recently.

    Even after all the screw ups and fall outs in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, the west just can't help itself from trying to position itself into a position of some advantage. It is always trying to get it's fingernails under the paint tp peel a bit more off.

    When the nationalists seized power in Kiev they clearly didn't think about the consequences. In the same way the USA and Europe are not considering the consequences of how their sanctions on Russia will ultimately ruin Europe's chance of access to inexpensive energy. Russia will only make stronger ties with Iran and China. Europe might be able to get their energy replaced from the USA in ten years time, but even that will be "at a price".

    I could go on and on about the stupidity of all this but I'd better stop here.

    teaandchocolate

    As usual John Pilger states the facts. In not wanting to appear weak, America has been over egging the pudding for years.

    They don't care about Europeans or anyone except themselves. They don't even care much about poor Americans. This is rubbing noses in it. It's provocation in the dirtiest way. Using neo nazis is a new low.

    American aggression and troop build ups and masses of weaponry do not go unnoticed. It's like they want a war.

    We don't.

    WyldeWolfe teaandchocolate

    Using neo nazis is a new low.

    Not really. They made great use of original Nazis.

    Trilbey Salongvaenster

    Ukraine's new government: What the West is trying to ignore - Truthloader

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-tGfHtSm8o

    PlayaGiron

    Excellent article!

    Just one factual error: fascists have already been part of post war governments in Europe (e.g. Hungary, Austria, etc.)

    The major difference is that this is the first European fascist dictatorship propped up by the west since the days of Franco and Salazar.

    clunky PlayaGiron

    Oh, come on, the government installed after the putsch is not a "fascist dictatorship". Some neo-nazis have a few positions in it, and are not popularly supported. That could change, but either way.

    ElDanielfire clunky

    It could change. The point is those neo-nazis gained those positions and one of the first acts of the government was the elimination of the official status of Russian language in the Ukraine (despite less than half the population having Ukrainian as their first language).

    Given the riots, economic crisis and then political leadership crisis, do you really think a government doesn't have an agenda when in spite of all their problems, especially the economic crisis the Ukraine has, they decide to kill the official status of Russian speakers in the Ukraine? That is such out of whack priorities you can't help but think the neo-nazis who are massively over-represented in the Ukrainian government have a disturbing amount of influence.

    napiertt

    After Iraq and the U.S. torture and murder program, for which no none has been held accountable, it is mind-boggling to witness the hypocrisy of the U.S and its vassal European "allies".

    When those responsible for the Iraq war, which led to the deaths of more that 500,000 people, and those responsible for the torture/rendition program are behind bars, I might take those nauseating hypocrites seriously.

    tonyp1 napiertt

    Who was held responsible for the mass killing of civilians in Chechnya in the 1990s?

    Tacty tonyp1

    dude, there are no paralel universe where chechnya can be even remotly close to the genocides and war crimes made by the western countries through history...

    Phil63 Tacty

    Not counting the ones by Stalin and Mao, for example..

    clivex

    We are told that nato has "taken over" these european states. Really?

    Isnt there just the possibility that they do not wish to be under the of Russia? Perhaps some recent memories? Perhaps (unlike many guardian journalists) they are not in awe of the authoritarian Putin?

    And its not as if NATo, annexed these states is it?

    edwardrice clivex

    Nato does take over. People living in countries that are Nato members have absolutely no say in what Nato does. Nato could launch bombers on eastern Ukraine tomorrow from Poland and the first thing Poles would know of it would be hearing about the attack on the news.

    Nato three years ago bombed Libya on behalf of jihadis rebels. UN Resolution 1973 was broken by Nato on the first day it bombed Libya. No citizen of any Nato country could have put a stop to Nato's war crimes.

    Babeouf

    The problem for the US regime is that it couldn't secure this dominance in 1955 when it was far and away the largest national economy on planet earth. How is it to secure it now when it isn't?

    And especially since it has notified other hostile countries Russia,China of its intentions. The choices for the US elites are managed decline, spectacular collapse(when the dollar goes West etc) or extinction via a nuclear war. There is no fourth phoenix choice when the relative economic decline of the US halts and it rises again to bestrides the rest of the worlds economic powers.

    The ambition of the US elites may be unchanged their capacities have diminished

    EdSaint

    Love this kind of polemic from Piliger, even when squeezed into a miniscule slot like this one. Shines a light from a point of wisdom that now seems further and further removed from our current lifestyle and its saturation in facebook generated news and twitter youtube info-mulch.

    Disagree with him if you like, but I see the clear need for this kind of sanely and sagely stated perspective to keep some kind of balance against the way the media seems ever more submersed in a slowly sinking swirl of subservience to the blinkered self-interests of the geo-political establishment.

    RobertNeville

    Russia is being lured into a trap, but NATO will not be able to control the consequences of springing it.

    However difficult the waters, it is fortunate that Putin and Lavrov are much smarter than the clowns Obama and Kerry, who have now rendered the carefully cultivated media reputation of the US to ashes.

    Phil429 FOARP

    US funds and foments violent illegal overthrow of Ukrainian government and its replacement with a loose coalition of right-wing neo-Nazis and violent anti-semites; Russia increases troop presence to protect its own borders and its citizens next door. Crimea with its majority of Russian citizens sees the growing violent unrest right next door, decides to reunify with Russia with over 90% of population in favor; Russia accepts and accordingly shifts around some of its troops on the territory (which had already been stationed there for 15 years, mind).

    Looks perfectly logical to me.

    CharlesMichael

    I agree with the well known domination plan of the USA and ther is no denying this is Brezinsky theory.

    But even it its declining stage I don't believe that the US and its european poodles witl go in nuclear confrontation.
    So far its is all mouth and no action, from Nato, but encouraging theirs fascist partners in Kiev to start the shooting.

    I am really ashamed to be an European

    edwardrice

    Since Washington's putsch in Kiev – and Moscow's inevitable response in Russian Crimea to protect its Black Sea fleet – the provocation and isolation of Russia have been inverted in the news to the "Russian threat".

    So true. There is hardly a mention in the media of the coup, it's like it never happened. Down the memory hole.

    [Apr 16, 2014] Kiev's grip on eastern Ukraine weakens as pro-Russians seize army vehicles by Luke Harding

    This is Luke Garding reporting in Slavyansk. Amazing metamorphose.
    16 April 2014 | The Guardian

    For Kiev's beleaguered army it was meant to be a display of strength. Early on Wednesday a column of six armoured personnel carriers trundled through the town of Kramatorsk, in eastern Ukraine. Some 24 hours earlier Ukrainian soldiers had recaptured a small disused aerodrome. Their next target appeared to be Slavyansk, the neighbouring town, occupied by a shadowy Russian militia. Was victory close?

    The column didn't get far. At Kramatorsk's railway junction, next to an open-air market and a shop selling building materials, an angry crowd caught up with it. Next armed separatists dressed in military fatigues turned up too. Within minutes the Ukrainian soldiers gave up. Without a shot being fired they abandoned their vehicles. The pro-Russian gunmen grabbed them. They raised a Russian tricolour. They sat on top and went for a victory spin.

    In theory this was happening in Ukraine, under the control of a pro-western government in Kiev, and several hundred kilometres from the Russian border. In reality large chunks of the east of the country are now in open revolt. Ukraine is rapidly vanishing as a sovereign state. Its army is falling apart. What happens next is unclear. But the Kremlin can either annexe the east, as it did Crimea, again shrugging off western outrage. Or it can pull the strings of a new post-Kiev puppet entity.

    Prini Tor

    "What was meant to be a show of strength by Ukraine's army has instead shown how the country is unravelling"

    Indeed Ukrainian people has shown that they are too clever to be fooled by western plutocraps to start a civil war .... Ukrainians 12 points :)

    HARPhilby
    Once again usa backing the corrupt buffoons.
    Chenoa -> HARPhilby
    Yep, and once again more anti-Russian propaganda by our dear Guardian.

    Just to remind people of what really happened in Ukraine - this is a good website with sources: The Ukraine Crisis - What You're Not Being Told

    Cue the people who will accuse me of being a 'Putin-bot' or 'Kremlin-bot'...

    RobertNeville
    NATO can't deal with an outbreak of peace and are now desperately racing to militarise the area and further intensify the conflict, though peace seems to be perfectly fine with Russia. The truth is revealed.
    vonZeppelin RobertNeville
    Doublespeak.
    Guardian contributor teaandchocolate
    He added: "I'm against America. But I have to say they make good guns."

    Dear God. Doesn't that just sum up western foreign policy for the last 70 years. Utter madness.

    teaandchocolate
    Anyway... it's a civil war now. Not a War Against Terror.

    George Bush has a lot ot answer for.

    tiagomenezzes
    Ultimately, it's the Ukrainian Armys refusal to fight their own people, and their Russian ethnic citizens which is removing Kievs grip on the East. Check the interview that one commander gave to Reuters, he admitted that his unit moved to the side of the pro-Russians because they wouldn't fight their own people. Kiev can't command their army, how do they expect to retake the East?
    IrishManInParis
    I really think we, The West, are getting this all wrong. We're certainly not making much of an effort to things from the other side. What would America's reaction be if Russia toppled a pro American govt in Mexico and replaced it with a pro-Russian govt? Well we know from history that America would not sit on its hands. Ukraine was a USSR republic and Putin is an old school Tsar. And from Russia's perspective, he's arguably the first great leader they've had in a very long time. What is really so shocking about all this? I'm beginning to think that all that's really surprising is our arrogance of thinking that we can help being democracy to the Ukraine.
    rodney9
    The problem is that the newly founded National Guard, is also being sent to southern and east Ukraine, and will be made up of fanatic nationalist Ukrainians from Maidan, sections of the Svoboda and the Right Sektor, who will be prepared to shoot their own people.

    We have also heard the private thoughts of Julia Timoshenko on this point too. I can well imagine that they will go about their "duty" and "orders" in a determined way, we have recently seen such brutality in Kiev when they dealt rough justice to a presidential candidate in Kiev- suspected of being pro-Russia, and these people won't think twice. The Ukrainian military have thought differently, as oine interviewed on BBC said they won't shoot at their own people. That must be the biggest fear right now.

    Will the media bother to point out the difference between the Ukrainian military approach and the National Guard approach? Or will we see the latter included as "military"? I think the media are obliged now to make the effort and distinguish between the two. However, I'm note sure, they still have difficulty working out the critical role of the neo-Nazis and Right Sektor at Maidan especially on the night/morning of 21 February, many are still in denial about this.

    mauman
    "Some 24 hours earlier Ukrainian soldiers had recaptured a small disused aerodrome." Hey Guardian. Wasn't this a "military airfield" yesterday? Weird how the facts change to suit the story

    and it shows what the people want. not what NATO tells us that the people want. It also shows that the Ukranian army know they are led by a rightwing nationalist and that he has absolutely NO RESPECT or authority except from NATO and other right wing groups, which in itself is a sad state of affairs in the first place

    All credit to the Ukranian army who refuse to do McCain and Hague's dirty work.

    dackel55
    oh dear this has really back fired hasnt it......It's like a comedy.....The ukrainian army drives into the east in tanks with guns all cocked and ready to go...when they get there they are greeted by women offering them somthing to eat and drink. They then throw down their arms and hand their tanks over and join the other side.....Looks like the east Ukrainians are going to be just ok without our help here.........oh to be a fly on the wall in the Ukrainian goverment halls now. Bet the air is dark blue (if the fists arnt flying)

    [Apr 15, 2014] Ukraine on the brink as troops take on rebels

    The Guardian

    Owakahnige

    I trust the EU will condemn this brutal repressive crackdown on peaceful protesters.

    HorstNRW Owakahnige

    Nice sarc

    RobHardy Owakahnige

    "Fuck the EU" sums up the EU's genuine role in this affair. This is the USA at work.

    xpxpxp

    Pro-Russian gunmen, pro-Russian groups, pro-Russian forces, pro-Russian mob, pro-Russian separatists. Foreign invader, terrorist, armed militants, armed paramilitary groups.

    I don't recall anything similar being said/written during Maidan. Wonder what the difference is...

    RememberGiap

    Anybody notice how local people in Eastern Ukraine who do not support the coup in Kiev have become '' a pro-Russian mob '' . Nice to see balanced reporting in one of Britain's more respected newspapers . Gives you a good idea of how it must be reported in the flag-waving ' russkie-hating ' US media !!

    Watch the language as the New Cold War warriors and their media chums of the West help ratchet the tensions up .

    geniusofmozart -> RememberGiap

    A newspaper which just won a Pulitzer Prize, no less. It's a shame that we've not seen balanced reporting over here, apart from in the odd opinion piece.

    I'd recommend Democracy Now for an extremely balanced picture, in fact - they're on every weekday, and often host guests who represent both sides of the argument.

    SoloRolo

    In pursuing their stated objective of discrediting and isolating Russia, the US has only one tactic for this phase of the conflict, which is to promote widespread violent civil unrest. They need lots of deaths in Ukraine, in a short time, all of which can then be blamed on Putin in person.

    ks1234

    It is the law of the jungle. Ordinary people will suffer on account of big power politics.

    lexnex

    Civil war in Ukraine will leave such a scar on the nation, that it will take decades to forget and forgive. East and West, don't shoot at each other, no flag is worth any blood spilled for it.

    Lifesaparty

    The UN human rights office, meanwhile, said ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine had falsely claimed to be under assault to justify Russian intervention, warning that such propaganda could affect Ukraine's presidential election next month.

    The degradation of the UN continues as Ban Ki moon sinks deeper into servility to the kaiser Uncle sam.

    StevenJ19

    This 'Ukranian government' that the US keeps talking about is nothing of the sort - it's a self-appointed neo-fascist rabble which answers to its neo-con paymasters in the US.

    Putin needs to send a message to NATO and send in the tanks, not least to protect its citizens across the border.

    CJBill -> StevenJ19

    Send in the tanks. Nice way to de-escalate things and avoid deaths and further conflict.

    whyohwhy1

    Asked what advice the CIA director, John Brennan, who visited Kiev on Saturday, and other US officials have given security forces in Kiev, Carney replied: "We urged the Ukrainian government to move forward, gradually, responsibly, and with all due caution, as it deals with this situation caused by armed militants.

    We know how the CIA "deals" with such situations. Europe is ever further under the boot of the US, between mass surveillance, the "trade" treaty secretly negotiated, the sanctions against countries on the US naughty list like Iran and Russia, and (still) tens of thousands of US troops.

    Now the EU is complicit in the overthrow of a democratic government just so Brussels and Washington can take over yet another country and impose their far-right economic policies. Europe seems to become the South America of the 21st century, it can't be long before a mustachioed general becomes president of Portugal or Greece.

    aprescoup whyohwhy1

    Finally someone understands what is happening. The US never wielded the power over Europe that it currently wields:

    1) As long as the USSR was around, the US had to tread lightly in Europe, otherwise Communist Parties would have come to power, in either of France or Italy or Greece;

    2) With the EU's introduction of Qualified Majority Vote, US can control the EU via a divide-and-conquer policy;

    3) With Internet (GCHQ partnership) the US has the perfect tool for surveillance of all Europeans: the US knows the private secrets of all European politicians, and anyone's career can be brought to a stop ΰ la Dominique Strauss-Kahn;

    4) With a TTIP, the US will control EU yet further;

    5) The US is waging an economic war against Swiss private banks.

    But every individual, and every nation, eventually gets back what it sowed.

    whyohwhy1 terre08

    Indeed I should have added "again", it wouldn't be the first time those countries would be led by a US puppet leader after a coup. Who can forget things like:

    The ambassador protested that it would be unacceptable to the Greek parliament and contrary to the Greek constitution. "Then listen to me, Mr. Ambassador," said the President of the United States, "fuck your Parliament and your Constitution.

    And nobody thinks Putin is a great leader, but after Iraq it is hard to argue the US is any better. And most of all, the difference is that European leaders don't take their orders from Moscow; they shouldn't be "loyal" servants of Washington either.

    geniusofmozart

    "That said the Ukrainian government has a responsibility to provide law and order. These provocations in eastern Ukraine are creating a situation in which the government has to respond."

    And the thugs in Kiev throwing Molotov cocktails did not create a situation in which Yanukovych had to respond? A blatant case of double standards. The protestors in Eastern Ukraine, made up of miners and people from various walks of life, want a referendum - they want to follow the democratic process. In Kiev, the "protestors" took over government buildings, set them on fire, killed policemen and overthrew a democratically elected government, and the United States and the rest of NATO are happy to support them, complete with the neo-Nazis and fascists in the Cabinet?

    SeeLifeDifferently geniusofmozart

    You have made a lot of untrue allegations and obviously you have a very biased and unhealthy pro-Russian mindset which clearly clouds your judgement.

    geniusofmozart SeeLifeDifferently

    Perhaps you could elaborate on them? I can assure you that I despise Putin, and hope to see his own sinister brand of fascism toppled, eventually, by left-wing elements in Russia. The only people I support are the Ukrainian people and the anti-war activists in Russia.

    I'll save you the bother of having to disprove my 'allegations' by proving them instead. The core of the EuroMaidan movement was made up of fascists and neo-Nazis: see this article, for example. They were throwing Molotov cocktails at police, and some were indeed armed more heavily.

    As this Guardian article notes, miners have joined the anti-Kiev protestors. All they're calling for is a referendum - that's obvious to even the most ardent supporter of the regime in Kiev. Before the propaganda became fully intact, even this BBC article noted that at least 10 pro-Yanukovych policemen were killed by the Maidan protestors: "[t]he dead include at least 14 protesters, 10 police officers and a journalist".

    Yanukovych was democratically elected in a free and fair election, as OSCE observers noted.

    There are a worrying amount of neo-Nazis and fascists in the Cabinet, including the deputy Prime Minister, Oleksandr Sych, who is a member of the neo-Nazi Svoboda Party, as well as the Ministers for Agriculture and Education, the head of the National Security Council, who is the co-founder of Svoboda, and the Acting Chief Prosecutor.

    Orphadeus geniusofmozart

    Not just molotive coctails:

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=34e_1392746107

    jackcoal

    The Donetsk occupation has a banner hanging on the balcony of the administration building that says "US + EU GO HOME!". Is the banner propaganda or does it describe a fact?

    What is the junta in Kiev? It is a government of neo-Nazis and oligarchs. It is a puppet government of Obama, NATO, and the EU!

    Who controls the National Defense and Security Council of Ukraine? It is headed by Andriy Parubiy co-founder of the neo-Nazi Svoboda party. Dmytro Yarosh of the neo-Nazi Right Sector party holds the number two position!

    Kiev appointed billionaire capitalist oligarchs as governors in the east. Kiev appointed two of Ukraine's richest men. The appointed governor of the Donetsk Region is billionaire Sergey Taruta. The Dnepropetrovsk governor is billionaire Igor Kolomoysky, Ukraine's third-wealthiest man.

    The White House confirmed CIA director John Brennan visited Ukraine over the weekend. The real terrorist masterminds are in Washington DC.

    Stop the attacks! Solidarity with Slaviansk and Kramatorsk! Support to the Donetsk People's Republic!

    JonDess jackcoal

    I wouldn't mention Oligarchs too loudly - Putin is bank-rolled by the Russia oligarchs.

    Fromibizatothebroads jackcoal

    Big Brother Russia does not like it when the Little Brother Ukraine that he had been beating up all the time threatens to grow up so fast and strong that he is worried about losing his 'credibility'.

    BoopyBop Fromibizatothebroads

    Big Brother Russia is afraid that the Little Brother Ukraine started taking drugs and is now drifting under the influence of a nasty drug dealer.

    [Apr 15, 2014] News of a Russian arms buildup next to Ukraine is part of the propaganda war by Mary Dejevsky

    Apr 11, 2014 | The Guardian

    Over the past six months, but especially since the collapse of Viktor Yanukovych's government in February and his circuitous flight from Kiev, there has been as much of a propaganda war as – potentially – a real war between Russia and the west. Two distinct, and for the most part mutually exclusive, versions of the truth have been put about, and have found receptive audiences on either side.

    Russia saw Yanukovych's departure as the result of an illegal coup, orchestrated by dangerous rightwing nationalist elements. It discerned intervention by western, particularly US interests, in the formation of the interim government, and believed that these outside parties were driving events, the underlying purpose being to claim Ukraine for the west and do Russia down.

    Western politicians and most of the media have taken a totally different view. Yanukovych was removed as the result of a genuine popular revolution. Russia annexed Crimea out of pique at what had happened, and in pursuit of Vladimir Putin's longstanding ambition to resurrect something like the Soviet Union. Next up would be eastern Ukraine, with its largely Russian-speaking and eastern-orientated population, and then – Moldova, perhaps even the Baltic states and Poland.

    The latest Nato report has to be seen against this background. Its images purport to show Russian troops and hardware massing on the borders of eastern Ukraine. But there is one detail worth noting. Nato gives a date range for these pictures which makes them, essentially, historical. It is not at all clear that this situation pertains today.

    Several more points could be made. The first is that several journalists have recently traversed the length of the eastern sector of the Russian-Ukrainian border, on the Russian side, and found nothing that would not correspond to the previously conducted exercises being wound down. They reported that the atmosphere seemed to be relatively relaxed; not the level of alert that might be expected of an army about to be aggressively deployed.

    The second is that the US secretary of state, John Kerry, stated after his talks with Russia's foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, that Russia had withdrawn a battalion from the area near the border with Ukraine. In other words, the trend was for de-escalation – to use western diplomats' term of the moment – rather than the opposite.

    None of this, of course, means that Russia could not, or perhaps would not, move into eastern Ukraine if serious disorder broke out there and urgent calls came from Russian "compatriots" for help. And it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that such calls might be deliberately manufactured by Moscow. There is also such a thing as contingency planning.

    But also to be borne in mind are the interests of the two sides. Moscow is unlikely to boast of any scaling back of its military presence near eastern Ukraine, lest it appear either to be bowing to western pressure or to be leaving those same east Ukrainian "compatriots" in the lurch. Domestically, it needs to keep up an appearance of readiness.

    Something similar applies to the west and especially to Nato. The western alliance needs to project an impression of strength, both to maintain its own credibility (having failed to prevent Russia's annexation of Crimea) and to convince the Baltics and others who feel vulnerable that they are protected. To project strength, Nato requires a convincing enemy. A retreating Russia does not do the job.

    JacktheNat, 11 April 2014 12:32pm

    To project strength, Nato requires a convincing enemy

    Thoughtful stuff, Mary.

    Nato has been looking for a role ever since the Wall fell, as it was supposedly set up to oppose the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact countries shortly after the Second World War.

    In fact it's long past its sell-by date as a cover for US actions well away from the North Atlantic, with the UK poodling along behind.

    harryphilby -> JacktheNat

    Nato ... was supposedly set up to oppose the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact countries shortly after the Second World War.

    Nato was set up before the Warsaw Pact Jack. As now Western military agressive intentions were always ahead of the Russians.

    malrubius

    The "West" has no interest in the truth, only in manufacturing consent.

    Trilbey -> dirkbruere

    Western propaganda is so effective that most people don't even know it is happening. For one thing, the so called 'meritocracy' is propaganda to get people to feel that it is their fault that they haven't achieved much, and that if they could have tried harder they could have got more. Now there is some truth to this, and that is why this propaganda has been so effective. But the real purpose of this propaganda was to get people not criticise the neoliberal system and so accept their lot in life.

    When true democracy was first starting out over a hundred years ago the ruling class got scared and so their academics dreamt up the idea of the 'Meritocracy' to deflect blame from themselves and pass it back onto ordinary people, and this way they could to preserve their opulent privileged lifestyle of gluttony and their rule over us.

    George Carlin explains it well:

    'They own everything, they got the judges in their back pockets, they own the politicians, they own you.'

    RVictor -> szczyl

    homophobia, racism, corruption - only an 'western propaganda' huh? real picture is that russia is a happy nation, with long history of support of freedom and democracy in neighbouring countries, with free press, high standards of social equality, and life expectation for a man of 58 happy years.

    Yes - western propaganda. For example, life expectancy for a man is 65 years and increasing.

    beside, i'm always suspicious when leader has 70-80% of support. we can say that us invaded many places, and one can hardly support that, yet still, you could protest against it in uk and us, couldn't you?

    In Russia you can also protest - if you don't try to insult police you will be OK.

    you could call bush Hitler and all that - try this in Russia!

    You can also call Bush Hitler in Russia without any problem.

    vazelas99 -> RVictor

    You can also call Bush Hitler in Russia without any problem.

    haha! This is awesome!!!

    SwanwickColliery

    Anders Fogh Rasmussen believed in Iraq's WMDs and as Danish P.M. was part of George W. Bush's coalition of the willing. This proved no hindrance to his elevation to the nice berth he now has with NATO. Under his watch we had the NATO regime-change operation in Libya under cover of a UN Security Council authorised mission to protect civilians. I would be inclined to treat advice that originated from him with caution, notwithstanding the understandable anxiety of some of NATO's more recent recruits.

    Tacty

    The French Invasion of Russia (French: Campagne de Russie) or the Patriotic War of 1812 (Russian: Отечественная война 1812 года) began on 24 June 1812 when Napoleon's Grande Armιe crossed the Neman River in an attempt to engage and defeat the Russian army. The official political aim of the campaign was to liberate Poland from the threat of Russia

    how little we are learned from history...it's pathetic to read all those tirades about scared poland and baltics...

    moncur -> Tacty

    Trust me, Poland is scared. It was divided and occupied by Russia at least four (4) times in the past.

    pagon001 -> moncur

    yes, and even before Poland several times took Russia territory and once took the Russian throne

    Krishnamoorthi

    If the US can invade and occpy nations which are far away and weak in the name of "prtocting our national interests and that of our Allies" Russia has ever right to protect herself from the war mongering Yanks and their stooges! As long as they maintain NATO, Russians should keep their options open!

    moncur -> Krishnamoorthi

    Don't hold your breath. Putin has just given a new lease of life to NATO. If NATO did not already exist, we would have to invent it now.

    edwardrice -> moncur

    Putin has just given a new lease of life to NATO. If NATO did not already exist, we would have to invent it now.

    Nato bombed the shit out of Libya three years ago providing air support for jihadis rebels.

    Russia was kicked out of Libya by Nato.

    Nato doesn't need Putin.

    [Apr 15, 2014] US sees 'obvious Russian hand' in Ukraine standoff as militias fortify cities

    That what happen when neocons dominate State Department: mass hallucinations became a norm ;-). Also this cheeky bastard Baptist pastor (and former head of Propaganda Department of Young communist League of Dnepropetrovsk region) proved to be extremely jingoistic even among the members of his far right junta.
    April 14, 2014 | The Guardian

    Denis Pushilin, head of the self-declared "people's republic" occupying the administration building in one of the largest affected cities, Donetsk, called Turchynov a "war criminal" for announcing the anti-terrorist operation. "Now he's bringing enemy troops here, not to keep the peace but to attack," he said.

    He said protesters would hold the building until their demands, including a referendum over the future of the region and control over local police, are met.

    Bogdanich -> Mordantdude

    The headline is almost comical: "US sees 'obvious Russian hand' in Ukraine standoff as militias fortify cities" well we ought to know since our CIA director just visited the country.

    Probably to look after the mercenaries and black ops US military we have in the region some of whom got captured recently. It really is almost comical. If we do something we immediately scream that someone else is doing something similar (true or not) and people believe it.

    ElvisInWales

    Washingtons at it again LMAO

    This isn't going to sit well with the US electorate let alone anyone else, PROVE IT, that's all the US admin has to do, after Iraq I think the electorates are rightly so very dubious of the complete and utter bunch of shits we are electing time and time again.

    So put up or shut up, it really is that simply, don't repeat the huge mistakes made over Syria, Libya, Afghanistan and Iraq, the people wont wear it.

    NOTaREALmerican -> ElvisInWales

    Re: the people wont wear it.

    I donno. Another Weapons of Mass Delusions story would work again.

    As somebody famous once said: Never underestimate the power of the bullshit, young Skywalker.

    PuppetMaster11

    Ukraine's acting president, Oleksandr Turchynov, invited a deployment of United Nations peacekeeping troops to monitor the situation in what he said would be an imminent clampdown on armed protesters who have held some buildings for as long as a week.

    The incompetence and ignorance of the so-called acting president, Turchynov, is just breathtaking. He doesn't know what is the meaning of UN peacekeeping.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_peacekeeping

    Peacekeepers monitor and observe peace processes in post-conflict areas and assist ex-combatants in implementing the peace agreements they may have signed.

    To have UN peacekeeping mission, you first have to have a peace settlement. But he is inviting UN peacekeeping troops to watch and help his attack on the eastern provinces. That is not their job. Just unbelievable.

    NOTaREALmerican

    It's obvious the smart-n-savvy people are creating bullshit for the dumb-n-clueless.

    Now, if only there was a way to tell the dumbasses how to spot the sociopaths "things" could "change".

    EgonRonay NOTaREALmerican

    "Yes" I agree with "you"

    Mordantdude

    News from Kyiv janitors - Putin's hand and Obama's ears were found after Maidan cleaning.

    Igor Kravec Mordantdude

    and what about Ashton's cookies?

    davidpear

    Obama, Kerry, Hagel, Rice et al are so frantic, desperate and full of threats and bluster it is an embarrassment. Do these people have no shame?

    Every body in the world knows that it was the US that instigated regime change in Ukraine. Except maybe those that only watch Fox news.

    This is the same pattern that the US employs all over the world to any country that is not in the US spear and whose corrupt leaders are not on the IMF payroll.


    Larry144 davidpear

    Lybia, Iraq, and Syria come to mind, regarding demonization and lies, followed by a regime change.

    Walrave davidpear

    Yes, damd those Americans, we want more Gaddafi's and Yakovich's in the world. Let the prolls bleed for their leaders. Nevermind the fact that popular uprisings lead to their overthrow. Now well trained "locals" with millitary gear in well planned military style excersises of the type seen in Crimea and east Ukraine, that sir is a popular uprising, yes sirry.

    davidpear Walrave

    popular uprisings lead to their overthrow

    "Those that seize power with violence will need to defend it with violence."

    davidpear Larry144

    Lybia, Iraq, and Syria

    Yes, Americans need to learn what most of the rest of the world already knows: US military and foreign policy has absolutely nothing to do with democracy, human rights and freedom. If it did we would not have Saudi Arabia, Honduras, Egypt, Pakistan and dozens of other despotic governments as allies. Nor would the US demonize countries that are actually trying to help their people such as Venezuela, Bolivia and even Cuba.

    tfernando

    ... And the whole world sees obvious Russian US hand' in the Ukraine crisis ..

    .. Also the Director of the CIA visits Ukraine for the Spring Break

    Nuckelavee

    This entire mess sits squarely on the shoulders of Washington, London and Brussels and it could yet become very ugly very quickly.

    The collective West has led a gullible and naive illegal Ukraine puppet government up the garden path knowing full well that military intervention was not a possibility.

    If Kiev launches attacks on the Eastern regions then civil war will ensue and Russia will back the winners.

    If NATO puts boots on the ground Russia proper will move in and it will go nuclear within the week.

    The sheer fucking irresponsibility of the Americans is breath taking……..to even think a military confrontation will be kept within the Ukraine is the height of political crassness.
    The consequences of shooting down Russian planes do not bear thinking about really.

    For all the politicians out there playing at plastic Generals….listen up. The targets have already been selected and preprogrammed……..none of you will survive and you can say goodbye to the lives you previously had……and that includes the Continental USA too folks. Everything worth a shit will be gone.

    There will be no ticker tape parades because there will be nothing left.

    NOTaREALmerican Nuckelavee

    Dude, you obvious don't think like the ELITE frat-boys n girls who run this great-n-glorious nation.

    Moto: Dude, no guts, no glory, dude. Like totally!

    Nuckelavee NOTaREALmerican

    Not sure how to reply to that but USA=NATO=USA….its not complicated.

    The USA most definitely picks the route and drives the bus.

    The "pork barrel" politicians of the EC are merely agreeable passengers.

    DIPSET

    How times change, eh ?

    What's hilarious about the Ukraine fiasco from the American view point is the amount of Republican/Conservative voters who were "A-okay" when Bush looked into Putin's soul and saw nothing of alarm and decided to look away during the Georgia conflict.

    And yet now, without anything to run on domestically (apart from moaning and bitching about Obamacare lol) the same Conservative voters have suddenly become "concerned" about the Ukrainian people and want Obama to go to war, despite knowing deep down that Russia can not be fucked with at the moment lol.

    As for the crises itself, as much as I love the Guardian (and well done with the Pulitzer Prize gong), your pro war drums are not working….and I noticed that you disabled comments for a couple of days as you sought a new strategy to try and "convince" the readers hahaha…

    Interesting times indeed……;-)

    Personicles

    Does ANYBODY actually ever believe a word the US administration says any longer ?

    Oleg Volkov

    I wonder... and CNN doesn't sees any Russians: http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/08/world/europe/ukraine-donetsk-protesters-walsh/index.html

    Protesters say that local complaints, not Moscow, are driving anti-government sentiments here in Donetsk. One man, who calls himself Andre, says that Ukraine's ongoing political crisis has hit his wages and that he can no longer afford to feed his family. He tells me that he has simply had enough.

    Maybe CNN is "Putin's agents" too?

    Igor Kravec Oleg Volkov

    Oh, seems someone forgot to pay CNN... or paid not much))
    http://harry-the-great.blogspot.co.uk

    Theodore Svedberg

    I don't understand why the Guardian doesn't directly point out that the US has had a direct and very visible hand in promoting the Kiev Maidan demonstrations that led to overthrow of the legally elected Yanukovich government. This was not a secret. Just as it wasn't a secret when the US backed the Orange revolution previously. The US and Russia are not just trading accusations, these are provable facts. What does it say that the director of the CIA just happened to visiting Kiev this week-end?


    fixintodie

    WTF has this got to do with the USA? Not one in 100 million Americans could point to the Ukraine on a map! Fk me, not one in 200 million Americans could even find Des Moines!

    Mebabby fixintodie

    The actual number was closer to 20%, but I'd bet, not much worse than for the average Brit.

    mialbe

    It's easy to forget the train of cause and effect that led to this situation and get caught up in the specifics of the moment. The precipitating cause for the crisis was the fact that aggressive European economic proposals would have forced Ukraine to effectively sever economic ties with Russia. Yanukovych chose the Russian option, which precipitated the EuroMaidan protests with obvious Western backing. Yanukovych was told by the West not to use the Army against the armed protesters. After that we all know what happened. It would be hypocritical and harmful to Ukraine if West now supported the intentions of the acting government of Ukraine to use the Army to disband the protesters in the East (especially since that may not even work given they have significant local support). The only lasting solution is to give the Eastern Ukrainians more autonomy. Although, the West obviously doesn't want that since the East is where the factories are and things are manufactured...

    Larry144

    The Guardian is starting to become more professional in its reporting of news. For the past month or so it was reporting propaganda and opinion disguised as news.

    In this story, the claims by the US and allies are accompanied by the opinion from the Russian side. The amount of space devoted to the Russian point of view is comparable to the number of words allocated to the US point of view.

    There is no loaded language and false claims, like "occupation of Crimea" or "unpopular President Yanukovych" or "popular protests that ousted Yanukovich".

    The article mentions that the US may have been involved in the coup.

    Congratulations, you are getting better.

    CaptainKragh

    I really dont want this on Europe's doorsteps. I dont want the US to offer arms to anyone next to us. We all know what will happen then. And Ukraine have Nuclear reactors which need proper attention 24/7/365. They cant just be turned off. They need Russian support. We cant have a civil war in this country, one Chernobyl is enough.

    Its clear that the US real goal here is war in Ukraine, with Russia if they can. Troops and guns have nowhere to go now Afghanistan and Iraq are over and oil industry want to frack. So this is a perfect opportunity to cut gas imports from Russia, sell US gas and get the US companies fracking Europe apart. I have been wondering why we were getting all pally with Iran now, but its quite clear. Iran are going to make a pipeline from Iran, through Turkey to the EU. And the US company Westinghouse will support the Ukraine Reactors, hopefully doing better this time around but I doubt it so one of them will melt down sooner or later.

    It really is sad to watch all this unfold. We could be getting our shit together and making renewable power, creating jobs and opportunities but instead we focus on this crap, give billions to create fractions in countries which are none of our business, to make a quick buck on the expense of the future of our whole planet and all the people who live on it. Very sad.

    CaptainKragh

    I really dont want this on Europe's doorsteps. I dont want the US to offer arms to anyone next to us. We all know what will happen then. And Ukraine have Nuclear reactors which need proper attention 24/7/365. They cant just be turned off. They need Russian support. We cant have a civil war in this country, one Chernobyl is enough.

    Its clear that the US real goal here is war in Ukraine, with Russia if they can. Troops and guns have nowhere to go now Afghanistan and Iraq are over and oil industry want to frack. So this is a perfect opportunity to cut gas imports from Russia, sell US gas and get the US companies fracking Europe apart. I have been wondering why we were getting all pally with Iran now, but its quite clear. Iran are going to make a pipeline from Iran, through Turkey to the EU. And the US company Westinghouse will support the Ukraine Reactors, hopefully doing better this time around but I doubt it so one of them will melt down sooner or later.

    It really is sad to watch all this unfold. We could be getting our shit together and making renewable power, creating jobs and opportunities but instead we focus on this crap, give billions to create fractions in countries which are none of our business, to make a quick buck on the expense of the future of our whole planet and all the people who live on it. Very sad.

    Anotherevertonian

    More CIA non-involvement in Ukraine confirmed:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-13/did-cia-director-brennan-visit-kiev-recently

    Langley spokesman Spring Nippleclamp III insisted his boss was only in Kiev for the penis-slitting, a perfectly harmless, and by now well-established, hobby among members of the American spy fraternity.

    I find this explanation perfectly convincing, but other, more cynical, souls may not.

    TruthIsPrivelege

    Ex chief of Ukrainian SBU (KGB) during his interview said that current head of SBU is CIA agent.

    Anotherevertonian TruthIsPrivelege

    Ex chief of Ukrainian SBU (KGB) during his interview said that current head of SBU is CIA agent.

    Heck, that sounds just like Britain, where the heads of the Orangemen (MI5) and the Charlatans (MI6) faithfully serve Langley.

    What have things come to in Kiev?

    [Apr 14, 2014] Ukraine's deadline passes for pro-Russian rebels to surrender

    Guardian try to hide facts, but comments show a real picture more clearly. The term "pro-Russian" is not an accurate term and just a smoke screen. Those presstitutes just can't say "anti-junta". either. As one commenter noted: "Their maybe many ethnic Russians in the protest but most of them say they do not want succession nor join Russia. What the Guardians own reporting shows is that they want a federation with de-central government. They were never given a choice in the new government."
    The Guardian

    Antagonist8adGuy

    More sanctions, threats, and more "tensions mounting" (how high can the mount), but they do love that phrase.

    Turchinov can't do anything, you can't use force against your own people.

    If there are really Russian troops in there, there is no chance taking those buildings back either.

    crystaltips2 Antagonist8adGuy

    Oh I don't know, Putin's done a pretty good job of it in Chechnya. All those people wanted was to choose their own destiny as well. Unfortunately for them, as in Ukraine, it wasn't the destiny Putin had in mind...

    Antagonist8adGuy crystaltips2

    Wow, you didn't mention Georgia. Its so awesome when people talk about things they have absolutely no idea about. Ignorance is bliss.

    Huples

    Will various Americans visit these protesters barricades and had out coffee and donuts?

    This is a civil war. The 'Government' about to order in thugs o attack protesters is an illegal one that seized power by doing exactly what these other protesters are doing.

    I still think Putin will sit back and let the blood flow for a few days. No better way to have the entire Eastern Ukraine then vote to join Russia after Russia Armed Forces on mass squash the terrorists from Kiev flat

    bytzer

    Top marks for an ambiguous headline. Sorry to be flippant but who gave them the passes in the first place?

    EdSaint bytzer

    It's just what passes as journalism these days...

    davidpear bytzer

    who gave them the passes in the first place?

    .......and "pro-Russian" doesn't seem accurate either. Their maybe many ethnic Russians in the protest but most of them say they do not want succession nor join Russia. What the Guardians own reporting shows is that they want a federation with de-central government. They were never given a choice in the new government.

    toneg davidpear

    Would that be because the election hasn't actually happened yet. How about letting Ukraine elect a new government, then start demanding more autonomy. Doesn't that sound more logical?

    davidpear toneg

    How about letting Ukraine elect a new government

    The election is not a choice. It is between two oligarchs.

    iseethroughyou

    It is not hard to see why Eastern and Southern Ukraine are protesting against the illegitimate regime in Kiev.

    First they overthow the democratically elected government who was elected overwhelmingly by these regions. Then they remove Russian as an official language, try to ban the Communist Party, remove elected regional officials in the East and replace them with Kiev friendly oligarchs. The arrest/detention of elected officials, beatings, torture of those who protested against these changes.

    The installing of Neo-Nazis into positions of power is like a red flag to a bull to the Russians in Eastern and Southern Ukraine as anyone with even a cursory knowledge of this area can see.
    But worse, the illegitimate Kiev regime has signed deals with the EU/IMF that No previous government was willing to do as the negative aspects were too severe. Cut in pensions, cut in civil servants salaries, increase in gas pice (even before Russia announced a higher gas price) and the opening of the Ukraine economy to free market competition which is going to destroy the industrial heartland in the East as they are not competitive enough to compete with the West.

    How can anyone be surprised these regions want to secede ? It was only a matter of time with the regime in Kiev in power that protests would erupt in the East and South.

    Where did the Kiev regime get the democratic mandate to sell Ukraine to the international banks/corporations ?

    Russia doesnj't need to do anything except sit back and watch Ukraine implode and pick up the pieces they want.

    AuObserver iseethroughyou

    The vote to "remove Viktor Yanukovych from the post of president of Ukraine" was passed by 328 MPs. Such ballots, passed by what is called constitutional majority, are binding and enter into force with immediate effect.

    iseethroughyou AuObserver

    Firstly, according to the Ukrainian Constitution they did not have enough votes for the vote to be legal.

    Go ahead read it up.

    Secondly, the coup goevrnment got rid of the Constitutional Court judges which would have been able to judge the vote.

    Denis Blagodarev AuObserver

    Ukraine Parlament "Verhovnaya Rada" have 450 MP. U need 3/4 to impeach president - so u need 338 MPs.

    328 MPs - its not a constitutional majority

    johnnydoe AuObserver

    Do you know that very same parliament was overwhelimngly pro-Yanukovich DAYS ago, and a month ago passed anti-protest laws that infuriated the "peaceful protesters" so much?

    Do you know that at the time when the vote to remove Yanukovich was passed, the "peaceful protesters" were storming government buildings all around Kiev and the police were no longer defending them?

    Goresh AuObserver

    "The vote to "remove Viktor Yanukovych from the post of president of Ukraine" was passed by 328 MPs."

    Which falls short of the three quarter majority required by the Ukraine constitution (338) and is therefor irrelevant. He is still constitutionally the President of Ukraine.

    "Such ballots, passed by what is called constitutional majority, are binding and enter into force with immediate effect."

    This ballot falls short of the numbers required by Ukrainian law and so has no force and no effect.

    tomski Goresh

    So let me get this right, Yanukovich, who fled from an armed US backed mob, is still legally the president, and the current presidency has no legal status ? but what about the rule of law ?

    ID1543590

    The US is behind this: gold-heist, snipers, mercenaries, the works. It must be so frustrating, pulling the same levers of power, but now nothing works. People in large numbers are seeing through the propaganda.

    jb10001 ID1543590

    With the head of CIA sneaking in under disguise, and masterminding the crackdown from their operations center in Kiev. An entire floor reserved for the Yankee destabilizers....no Ukrainianians allowed on that floor////and they tell Russsia...please don't intervene. The Kiev puppets should be strung up on the Maidan as traitors....sold out their country, and gave away the gold!

    rhcppepers

    I feel for the people in Ukraine. They are puppets in a dangerous game between Putin and the west. It's always the ordinary people who suffer. The so called world leaders get away without facing any consequences. Just look at Syria. Putin was proclaimed the victor in the battle with the west but just look at the place, it's like hell on earth. You have students who when they hear gun fire outside their school just take that as another day at the office. Right now Ukraine is on the brink. One wrong mistake could lead to another bloody war. I fear NATO countries bordering Ukraine will not just standby if Russia invades Ukraine. If Russia invades I suspect the west will arm Ukraine leading to a proxy war. No one and I mean no one wants another war so Russia, Ukraine and the west need think about their next move very carefully.

    robrut1 rhcppepers

    Don't you be so afraid poor fellow. These events are nothing more than high politics. And, oh yes, there will be a little proxy war in the Ukraine. But it's not going to spill anywhere. Too bad for those poor souls that will be sacrificed, a la ancient world! We humans haven't evolved very much over the past 5k years or so!!!!!!!!

    AlexRussia

    Gorlovka activists stormed the police department


    Gorlovka activists stormed the police department . Crowd of residents federalization supporters armed with steel wire, tried to seize the local police department, but met armed resistance. Behind the building is a battle, shots are fired . The crowd blocked the approaches to the building and stormed, burst into the courtyard . Heard gunfire and explosions .

    Around 13:00 activists managed to break into the building itself . They broke the glass on the first floor and broke the resistance . There is no data on deaths and injuries yet. Gorlivka - one of the largest centers of Donbass with a population of about 250,000 people.

    chrisbrown

    If photos of the crowds are compared it would seem that the Ukraine is not just divided along geographic lines but also along class, age and possibly some ethnic divisions. There is no easy answer to this stand-off and the main concern of the West should be to avoid provoking a civil war. In no circumstances should the EU countries and the US send arms to the Ukraine.

    coffeegirl chrisbrown

    Don't you get it, in the Guardian pics are same propaganda tool like 'innocent' omittance in the text. This is why we always had ether heroic or glamorous shots of people on Maidan and old or weary, or not so good looking Crimean and now eastern Ukrainians. The message isn't subtle, it is actually crude: everything pro-EU is good while everything pro-Russia is bad.

    Jeremn

    The new government in Kyiv is openly hostile to the people of the east and south. There were moves to strip Russian of official status, moves to have travel restrictions imposed for those working in Russia (and a minister said he spits on such people, as traitors), restrictions on Russian TV, economic threats to industries exporting to Russia, no minister ever visited anywhere east of Kyiv, and so on. And Tymoshenko said she would happily nuke those people. Plus bands of right-wing idiots have been armed as national guards and have been promising to go over and sort out "the terrorists" (egged on by members of the Rada who say that the response has to be really tough) once they have finished making videos of themselves shouting hang the Russians.

    And people are surprised that the east and south protests?

    Hootenannys -> Jeremn -> 14 April 2014 12:13pm
    A post full of lies without a single link or source. The norm for CIF comments on Ukraine.
    Hootenannys -> 14 April 2014 12:36pm
    All of this are well-known facts. Just google or go to Wikipedia or something.
    Jeremn -> Hootenannys -> 14 April 2014 1:39pm
    There were moves to strip Russian of official status, by parliament:

    http://www.ukrinform.ua/eng/news/turchynov_to_not_sign_parliament_decision_cancelling_language_law_318038

    moves to have travel restrictions imposed for those working in Russia (and a minister said he spits on such people, as traitors):

    http://www.euronews.com/2014/03/20/new-visa-regime-would-impact-ordinary-ukrainians-russians/

    The minister was Parubiy:

    http://h2oreuse.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/newold-game.html

    restrictions on Russian TV:

    http://en.ria.ru/world/20140326/188762977/Moscow-Slams-Closure-of-Russian-TV-in-Ukraine.html

    "National Television and Radio Broadcasting Council of Ukraine has ordered cable and satellite TV service providers to exclude Russian TV channels, popular among Russian speakers in eastern Ukraine, from their packages.

    economic threats to industries exporting to Russia:

    25% of exports go to Russia:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/28/ukraine-crisis-economy-idUSL5N0MP1VL20140328

    no minister ever visited anywhere east of Kyiv, and so on. And Tymoshenko said she would happily nuke those people:

    http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/epaper/2014-03/26/content_17380090.htm


    Plus bands of right-wing idiots have been armed as national guards and have been promising to go over and sort out "the terrorists"

    http://grahamwphillips.com/2014/03/31/odessa-conflict-march-30th/

    (egged on by members of the Rada who say that the response has to be really tough) - that was Irina Farion:

    "I would have taken more severe action. I would have simply – excuse me – I would have simply shot them."

    Or

    On February 28, the deputy governor of the Dnipropetrovsk region, Boris Filatov, posted an explanation on his Facebook page of how to properly handle members of the pro-Russian movement who are dissatisfied with the central government in Kiev: "offer those dirtbags any promises, guarantees, or concessions they want. And… we'll hang them all later."


    once they have finished making videos of themselves shouting hang the Russians.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KrJC6rU9lG0RT

    or stab them

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9eGG4lS7Sw#t=16

    tomski -> Hootenannys -> 14 April 2014 1:50pm
    Sounding desperate...the Svoboda/Nato bots losing the arguments?
    tomoix -> 14 April 2014 11:05am
    now if I remember correctly the reason for no flight zone and consequent bombing Libya into oblivion was that gaddafi used the army against its own citizens. how about applying the same rules to Turcynov and Ukraine?

    CodyJoeBibby2014 tomoix

    armed uprisings are just fine as long as they're the ones NATO wants to happen.

    Jonfrad

    Its crunch time for Comrade Putin, has he got the b*ll*cks to invade or are those troops massing on the border just there to intimidate ? If he does invade Russia will be a pariah state for a long time with disatrous economic consequences, not for the West but Russia itself, of which I think he is aware. So probably not, but prove me wrong Vladimir !

    BoopyBop Jonfrad

    "Troops massing on the border" is pure propaganda BS.

    Natalia Volkova Jonfrad

    Do you know how many troops US have on the border to Mexico?
    Why no one asks?

    third_eye

    Face it. Eastern Ukraine is lost. Any military action by Kiev in eastern Ukraine will be met with a similar response from Russia and we know who is going to win that one. And no, despite all the bravado, not a single European country nor the US will send troops in.

    Russia would have accepted a neutral Ukraine on its border just as it's happy with a neutral Finland. But no, the political imbeciles who claim to speak for the peoples of the US and Europe lusted for Ukrane in its entirety. The incompetence demonstrated by the West, best exemplified by obvious amateurs such as Ashton and Nuland in Maidan Square, is beyond belief.

    davidpear third_eye

    Any military action by Kiev in eastern Ukraine

    If Kiev starts attacking their own people it will prove how foolish Obama was and that the government in Kiev really are fascists.

    Richard Duffy third_eye

    Russia would "accept" a neutral Ukraine

    How jolly decent of them! Ukraine is a sovereign state and can become allies with whomsoever she wants. The days of "The Great Game" are over. If Ukraine wants to join the Boy Scouts let her. It's not for Russia (nor anyone else) to decide who a State can talk to

    SteveK9 Richard Duffy

    They have the right to ask to join NATO. And, we have the right to tell them to ... off, which I wish we had done to Poland, the Baltics, etc.

    Nanome Richard Duffy

    The days of "The Great Game" are over.

    ????

    Where have you been since 1991?

    johnnydoe ID5677229

    Yanukovich and Berkut did not attack. He could have cleared the Maidan of protesters in the matter of minutes at any moment in December, January or February. He was either extremely humane or scared by the US "warnings" not to use force. On 22nd of February, Yanukovich signed an agreement with the protesters and ordered the withdrawal of police, this is when the shooting started. Who were the snipers is still not clear and the police were only responding.

    lewisfg Richard Duffy

    "Ukraine is a sovereign state and can become allies with whomsoever she wants"

    Why that doesn't apply to Cuba, suffering the biggest process of economic sabotage in capitalism history just for daring to not allow USA to choose their government?

    Billyandbenny

    'Acting' president is right. No one voted for him. Who wrote the script?

    wimberlin Billyandbenny

    'Bad-acting' President would be more honest.

    AlexRussia Billyandbenny

    But he is beautifully puffed cheeks on TV when trying to show that he is thinking. CIA voted for him which is currently toccupy an entire floor in the building services Safety of Ukraine


    VladimirM

    Also on Monday, the Ukrainian security and defence council head Andriy Parubiy said intelligence services had detained Russian secret agents in Ukraine, but did not provide further details.

    Provide details then, show who those people are.

    Bethany Lauren Birley VladimirM

    they can't rpovide details, the guys are secret agents!

    VladimirM Bethany Lauren Birley

    Oh!


    vazelas99 VladimirM

    Please, be merciful! Their names and their families need to be protected! They might be secret agents, but they are above all humans!

    And we all know how the new Kiev government, appointed through love and understanding, is very considerate of the rights of Russian nationals!

    tomski VladimirM

    Rendition them to Guantanamo...bit of waterboarding will teach' em

    Habakuk

    I want Western policy/strategy concerning Ukraine to fail miserably.
    Because I don't agree with it and I was never even asked if I agree with it.
    Neither did the majority of EU citizens and I am dead certain they would not agree with it either.

    davidpear Habakuk

    I want Western policy/strategy concerning Ukraine to fail miserably.

    Brilliant honesty. I feel the same way but I don't want to see any more bloodshed. Nobody ever asked the taxpayers if they wanted to destabilize Ukraine with $5 billion of our money. Now we are supposed to be stuck with bailing out the bankers for Ukraine.

    It looks as if the EU can ill afford it either. They can't afford to help their own members and there were riots in Greece and Italy yesterday although all the Western press tried to bury it.

    AlexRussia

    Acting president says operation to seize back government buildings in east Ukraine occupied by separatists will soon begin
    ______

    I would not suggest him to do so, otherwise he will meet with the Nuremberg Court without the slightest doubt

    KingRolo AlexRussia

    He's a right wing fascist - someone the Guardian suddenly sees as a beacon of Democracy. Just compare this article with a realistic account from the Guardian in late Feb, you'd think that this once respected Guardian has been hijacked by the same fascists who hijacked Kiev.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/28/ukraine-genuine-revolution-tackle-corruption

    monkie -> KingRolo -> 14 April 2014 12:12pm
    it is worth remembering what real journalism looks like, carl bernstein wrote a article in 1977 explaining the problem with the media, does anyone think the situation is better now, or worse?

    the cia and the media

    THE CIA AND THE MEDIA

    How Americas Most Powerful News Media Worked Hand in Glove with the Central Intelligence Agency and Why the Church Committee Covered It Up

    BY CARL BERNSTEIN

    In 1953, Joseph Alsop, then one of America's leading syndicated columnists, went to the Philippines to cover an election. He did not go because he was asked to do so by his syndicate. He did not go because he was asked to do so by the newspapers that printed his column. He went at the request of the CIA.

    Alsop is one of more than 400 American journalists who in the past twenty‑five years have secretly carried out assignments for the Central Intelligence Agency, according to documents on file at CIA headquarters. Some of these journalists' relationships with the Agency were tacit; some were explicit. There was cooperation, accommodation and overlap. Journalists provided a full range of clandestine services

    wimberlin

    Remember how the Guardian and the UK government along with US instigators had for months supported 'their' demonstrators on the Maidan square. These were 'their' darling 'protestors'.

    Now the tables are turned and the Guardian has no time for like minded protestors, ordinary folk, miners and normal inhabitants in Eastern Ukraine. These are all now Russian agents. Talk about obvious hypocrisy!


    JohnMMorrison

    Astonished to hear UK's former ambassador to Moscow Tony Brenton on the Today programme saying all Russia really really wants in Ukraine is stability. Oh please.

    Prini Tor JohnMMorrison

    Surely you know better than him ....

    AuObserver JohnMMorrison

    Ukraine humiliated Putin by not signing his Customs Union, this is payback time.

    numinous JohnMMorrison

    Take your bullshit back to whatever Langley thinktank you crawled out of.

    jamesoverseas JohnMMorrison

    Astonished to hear UK's former ambassador to Moscow Tony Brenton on the Today programme saying all Russia really really wants in Ukraine is stability.

    Tony Brenton is no fanboy of Putin - his family was given a particularly hard time by Nashi. He does understand Russia and what its interests are. What's interesting is that our politicians at home are completely deaf to any British person who actually does understand Russia, even to its own former ambassadors.

    davidpear

    Both the US and Nato have accused Russia of staging another Crimea-style intervention

    Many of the pictures show ordinary people protesting. The Guardian keeps calling them pro-Russian but most of the interviews say that what they want is a federation and not succession.

    OBryanRobinson davidpear

    These old women are Spetsnaz don't you know? ;)

    Chehow

    The current illegitimate Kyiv authorities urged to seize administrative buildings, threw unarmed police with Molotov cocktails, and not shy of neo-Nazis in their ranks, 106 died (according to the physicians of Maidan killed about 780).

    In the South-East of Ukraine, people gathered to defend itself at any price from bandits in Kiev. Even local law enforcement agencies refused to follow orders and went to the side of the local people.

    But in Kiev called them terrorists and sent the army. But of course all the "blame" Russia and even hundreds of specialists from the CIA located in Ukraine can not cope with a bunch of Russian spies. Good old double standards and "free" press.

    Judging by the photo in the crowd a lot of Russian spies... :)

    Rodneyhorace

    The truth in these situations gets obscured by deliberate misinformation. People take sides according to their beliefs or prejudices and objectivity is lost.

    Trying to take a dispassionate view, I have to say that this whole crisis was started by the west tempting the people of Kiev to overthrow their elected leader and come into the fold of the EU and NATO. What followed was alarm by the people of Crimea and now in other parts of eastern Ukraine who do not want to break with Russia. To say that Russia orchestrated this crisis from the start is ignoring the facts, they simply reacted to what they saw as a dangerous situation for Russian leaning people.

    Unfortunately when the west start interfering in affairs that do not concern them the consequences often get out of control, one would think that lesson had been learned from past adventures, but apparently not.

    wightangler Rodneyhorace

    half the people of Ukraine including the miners have not been paid for 2 months as a result of the Kiev coup notably issuing orders after no national elections as initially promised.

    The EU would close these mines and steel industries down and the existing supply trade with russia would end- therefore plunging half the country into even greater penury that it currently haves - add an IMF loan - that would proscribe public money being spent on welfare -including health and education, zero-hrs contracts, state pensions or redress for these newly redundant half of population - plus a small state objective and privatisation including securing pro-western oligarchs assets by legal means.

    You dont need an o level to see why this imposed future would not be in the interests of ordinary eastern Ukrainians particularly those working in heavy industry or pensioners. The memories of the nineties and financial anarchy in Russia as a result of western banker 'shock reform' would also be etched in many Ukrainians including those with extended Russian families.

    zchabj5

    Is any Brit, French person, German going to enlist to fight in a war of succession in Ukraine between two pretty morally dubious sides.

    You want your sons and daughters to die alongside allies that include Svodba?

    Or in Syria with allies alongside Al Qaeda.

    It will never happen. And nor should it.

    Split the country and stop forcing people on both sides to do what they don't want. Dirt changes hands all the time, and it is irrelevant who extracts taxes from whom.

    But for the new regime, losing Donetsk would be a blow to them being able to pay back the IMF.

    tomoix zchabj5

    i think a couple of brits, french and other european rebels have been caught fighting alongside the pro-democracy activists in syria

    Ludwitt

    In the full on information war going on, one way to ascertain some element of what is actually going on is by the headlines and "facts" that either side chooses to report.

    One interesting such report which had been highlighted in headlines by the Russian media as well as Sergei Lavrov is the emergency visit to Kiev of the CIA director John Brennan on Saturday hours before ultimatums were issued from the Kievan authorities to the peoples rebeling in some cities in eastern Ukraine.

    The New York Times buried this report deep in it's report and added that the US embassy declined comment. No major Western media source including the Guardian (who claims to be otherwise suspicious of the motives and veracity of US intelligence agencies and officials on Western domestic issues but is conspicuously silent about their motives internationally) highlighted even reports of this visit.

    The question is this: is it important news if the HEAD OF THE CIA MAKES AN UNANNOUNCED VISIT hours before the unelected president of Ukraine issues ultimatums to Russian protesters? Does it deserve a headline and explanation?

    Put it another way: if the head of the FSB made an unannounced visit to Kiev pre-Feb before major actions were announced, would that have been plastered all over the global media?

    What we DO have headlined in the Western media is uncorroborated and oft-repeated unproven statements from Western officials (who apparently both the NYT and Guardian believe tell the truth) about "Russian agents" and "Russian provocateurs" running amok in eastern Ukraine (vehemently denied by Russia as one would expect whether the reports or true or false of course) and little mention that there is grass roots sentiment (as evidenced by numerous overwhelming election results over the years) of support for Russia in Eastern Ukraine.

    The New York Times, when it comes to international news is essentially nothing more than another arm of the State Department's propaganda arm (as it, without irony, accuses various Russian media of being).

    I had expected more from the Guardian.

    ID5677229 Ludwitt

    The question is this: is it important news if the HEAD OF THE CIA MAKES AN UNANNOUNCED VISIT hours before the unelected president of Ukraine issues ultimatums to Russian protesters?

    No ultimatums have been issued to "Russian" protestors (a Freudian slip there mate). The ultimatums have been issued to co-ordinated automatic weapon bearing gangs of men in combat fatigues (without insignia) who having taken over various local authorities.

    hazelwoodfrog Ludwitt

    I read about the Brenner visit yesterday on one of the threads. I come here to get information. There are links and resources posted and comments from some who are living through this. Yes the media has all been scripted but thanks guardian for providing these forums

    KingRolo

    Right now it's interesting to see Western media accuse Russia of precisely what West did in Kiev ie deploy provocateurs and snipers from Right Sector and Svoboda to push a coup into place, but this backfired as not all Ukranians support fascists and wanted a referendum

    This leaves the EU in a difficult conundrum, does it support the ballot box or the bullet? It's doubtful if the EU Enlargement Minister supports the ballot box


    BoopyBop KingRolo

    LOL. "EU Enlargement Minister", well said!

    ForwardThinking KingRolo


    Interesting angles being reported on France 24. The coup leaders in Kiev are fast losing support and Lavrov has been given some airtime, swatted off a daft question put forth by a "journo" (I do detest calling them journos),

    "What will Russia do if the Ukrainian military attack the "separatists".? A nonsense hypothesis, said Mr Lavrov. Go away little boy in other words

    ID5677229 KingRolo

    Right now it's interesting to see Western media accuse Russia of precisely what West did in Kiev ie deploy provocateurs and snipers from Right Sector and Svoboda to push a coup into place.

    The Art of Propaganda: find a lie that is simple enough for the ordinary person to understand and articulate, and which confirms their prejudices. State it once without great ceremony and in no time at all it will be repeated incessantly as if it were common knowledge (embellished in accordance with such imagination as ordinary people possess).

    ID820968

    KIEV SACKS HEAD OF ANTI-TERRORISM CENTRE, ALEKSANDR TURCHINIV, AFTER ARMY UNITS REFUSE TO ATTACK UKRAINE CITIZENS IN ANTI-TERRORISM OP.

    mishimishi ID820968

    The Americans are horrible people wanting their puppet to kill his own citizens.

    justTR mishimishi

    You mean: the American establishment? the Americans don't know the truth.

    Stewby ID6364882

    Now is not a good time to suggest a campaign of sabotage since Russia is just as exposed to these kind of attacks as Kiev. It serves no purpose and only punishes the poor that are forced to use the public infrastructure to survive. The rich will just fly out and won't suffer a bit. The regime in Kiev will fall on its own.

    Their platform contains the seeds of their own destruction. They are so greedy that they would implement austerity in a nation on the verge of civil war. The gall it takes to keep pushing austerity and saying effectively that the bondholders will get paid back regardless of how many people lose their pensions, government jobs, and energy subsidies while at the same time pointing to Russia and blaming them for the instability in Ukraine.

    They would rather see their own country shattered than allow bondholders to suffer for making an obviously bad investment in a corrupt nation. Yats could never have been elected running on a platform of austerity, but he's supposedly the democratic one. These bankers are a greater national security threat than Russia ever could be.

    Weshallovercome1

    It wont be in this rag bag of sycophantic drivel but here is a link to the statement made by Putin to the leaders of the 'west' who haven't had time to read it as they are too busy pouring more destabilising millions into Ukraine to satisfy the greed of the oligarchs lead by Nuland's hubby who want their hands on Ukraines resources.

    'President Vladimir Putin's letter to leaders of European countries – Full text

    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/04/12/putin-letter-makes-diplomatic-history/

    PeterBrit

    I had to laugh when a BBC journalist on the news last night lamented that we were discussing Russian destabilisation, not Ukraine's 'bright future'. FFS Ukraine has been a corrupt, bankrupt, unstable hole for most of the last twenty years. And the current government is linked to a load of the billionaire oligarchs who bankrupted the country in the first place, including the Governor of the Donbass region, and is offering its people an IMF-dictated austerity cut in their already meagre standard of living, with the vague possibility of being an unimportant member of the EU in 10-15 years. It's not exactly the brightest of futures. While personally I would condemn Putin's invasion of Crimea, it's not hard to see why many Russian-speakers in Ukraine's east might prefer being part of a stable, wealthy, powerful Russia to another twenty years of Ukraine's 'bright future.'

    ForwardThinking PeterBrit

    Good post Pete, though to be pedantic, Russia did not invade Crimea

    PeterBrit PeterBrit

    And another good laugh - Hague solmenly condemning the Russian destabilisation of Ukraine. Because we in the West would NEVER destabilise a government we don't like, would we?!

    coffeegirl

    Foreign Secretary William Hague has accused Russia of a "gross, deliberate and premeditated" destabilisation of Ukraine, ahead of a meeting with EU foreign ministers.

    Just shoo away, you and the rest of EU foreign poodles - you don't give a sh** about people of Ukraine. If you did you would be arguing for the interim government to listen to people's demands, for the last month all they were asking was to be heard. They are not separatists, they want federal rights.

    martyjar coffeegirl

    Impressively strong language there. He went on to say Russia's denial of involvement in East Ukraine did not have "a shred of credibility". In international diplomacy, that's dynamite.

    Obviously post-Crimea it's very solid ground - I'm sure Russia wouldn't be putting forward such ridiculous claims believing any government would believe them; it's aimed at Russians.

    SallyWa martyjar

    Well, both Guardian and Washington post reported at some point that according to polls Russians are backing politics of current Russian gov. on Ukraine issue.

    What our leaders are achieving is turning Russian population strongly anti-Western.

    OBryanRobinson -> 14 April 2014 11:53am
    It's clear the ministry of truth has lost this information war worldwide. How is the ordinary Yank digesting all this?

    www.washingtonpost.com/ blogs/ monkey-cage/ wp/ 2014/ 04/ 07/ the-less-americans-know-about-ukraines-location-the-more-they-want-u- s-to-intervene/

    aretheymyfeet -> OBryanRobinson -> 14 April 2014 12:31pm
    The internet is proving a big pain in the ass for the powers that be. People nowadays have access to multiple sources and perspectives and can build up their own picture of who has credibility or not. This is not good for the US, unless of course they were to put in place some sort of monitoring programme that could harvest internet communications worldwide, hmmmm.....
    OrsonWills
    Oh dear. Like Syria this really isn't going the way the governments of the US and UK nor their mouthpieces such as Fox, the BBC, the Guardian et al had hoped. What to do? Unfortunately the fear is that the crazy propaganda will continue relentlessly until there is the desired outcome: bloody carnage. As ever.

    Defenseur

    "Acting president says operation to seize back government buildings..."...One correction in accordance to the international law to this title of article ... "Illegally acting president ....."

    mandzorp

    According to the EU, the US and others people have a right to protest and even engage in violence and resist a government but only if they are doing so at their beck and call. They will learn otherwise. It can cut both ways......As for sanctions against Russia, go ahead, see what difference it will make, zilch, nada, nothing, zero. If anything it will increase Russian resolve.

    OrsonWills

    Anyone recall the 2009 Honduras coup when the democratically elected Manuel Zelaya was ousted as President? The BBC and the rest of our 'impartial' media had no problem with it and backed the US State Department's wholly bizarre advice to Zelaya that he should simply accept it and go away. There's democracy and there's 'democracy' it seems.

    Green_Matters

    Nice to see the racist anti Russia brigade in full force on here.

    thea1mighty Green_Matters

    US Cyber Command are quite busy on social media nowadays. I would take all anti-Russian insults with a pinch of salt, and not think them typical of UK Guardian readership, though this website also seems to have become home to right-wing paywall dodgers of the UK, who would support nearly any Western war of conquest, as long as they did not have to be on the frontlines. Chickenhawks the lot of em.

    Green_Matters thea1mighty

    As much as your comment made me laugh, I do fear that never a truer word has been said. Sad, very very sad :-(

    Wackyjacky

    Oh dear.

    "Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive."

    The West has lied and the facts are now there for all to see as their puppet regime in Kiev is powerless in the face of the people and unrest is spreading into Western Europe as people see what their government tolerated in the Ukraine. What are they going to do next? Nuke Russians as the murderous braided hair one demanded and shoot to kill protesters in Western capitals?

    celios chev

    Kanada has two oficcial languages and live in peace. Why Ukraine can't go this way? Ah I forgot their nationalistic ambitions.

    StanislavCh celios chev

    Switzerland has tree or four official languages and live in peace. But Lugansk is not Lugano, unfortunately.

    thea1mighty celios chev

    You are correct, though you seem to be forgetting the IMF's privatisation, social welfare / pension reduction plans and mineral resource stealing ambitions, are a large part of the equation. The US did not invest $5bn to overthrow the elected government for nothing.

    Stewby

    If this doesn't lead to world war it will at least be the end of globalization, as investment in Russia, China, and probably India would be too risky for many investors. Also the nations immediately surrounding these will be very risky for investment with China tiring of US hegemony in the Pacific and likely to turn more belligerent. The US won't be able to do anything to keep globalization together when they are busy shaking their fist at enemies that no longer exist. I don't understand why they are pushing the BRICs closer together when they have openly threatened economic warfare, which, like cyberwar, we are more vulnerable to than Russia or China.

    The neverending belligerence of our leaders represents a greater threat to the national security of the United States than Russia or China ever could. We are bankrupt and already losing the war on terror as islamists proliferate in Africa but they are picking a fight with Europe's primary energy supplier. Russia is no threat. Their military could be defeated by the Europeans without US help. Also Power trying to push sanctions down Europe's throat is so stupid. Europe will obviously have to distance themselves from the US strategically if we insist that they cripple their economic recovery and doom themselves to depression with rising energy prices.

    Maybe we should get away from the public relations model of diplomacy, because our citizens may be ignorant enough to believe Power's distortions but diplomats aren't.

    retarius Stewby

    If this doesn't lead to world war it will at least be the end of globalization

    So something good may come out of it you say, well it is sad that every cloud has a silver lining. I hope not too many Ukrainians are sacrificed to bring this good about.

    [Apr 13, 2014] Russian propaganda over Crimea and the Ukraine: how does it work? by Alan Yuhas

    The pot calling kettle black ;-). But some interesting observation in this Guardian drivel
    17 March 2014 | The Guardian

    a constant theme spouting from Russian sources has been the Ukrainian revolution's alliance with "fascists" – a vague word that's become a catchall for anti-Semites, terrorists, insurgents, anarchists and thugs.

    Though there were nationalists and far-right nationalists among Kiev's protesters, and there are some in the new interim government, there decidedly weren't and aren't many – if any – bona fide fascists. This line has been both taken up and debunked (thoroughly), but any discussion of fascists at all is a Kremlin win.

    ... ... ...

    Fear of fascists goes a long way in Ukraine, which suffered in the second world war. By definition, fear ("Fascists are coming for your family!") and confusion ("Fascists? Are there fascists? What's a fascist?") matters much more in propaganda than truth (not so many fascists). It doesn't have to make sense – in fact it's better if it doesn't.

    ... ... ...

    Putin has also insisted that Yanukovych's ouster was not just illegal but a coup, and he has pointed fingers at the west for orchestrating and backing the culprits. Again, slivers of truth work in Putin's favor: Kiev's parliament removed Yanukovych on constitutionally murky grounds, though everyone else has now accepted them; because Senator John McCain and European leaders visited Kiev, it looks like the west really did back those obstreperous radicals.

    ... ... ...

    Skewed facts, half-truths, misinformation and rumors all work in the propagandist's favor. By playing up a law that would diminish the Russian language's official status, Kiev looks like it's persecuting Russian speakers (though the vetoed bill does not ban Russian).

    ... ... ...

    The one thing the Kremlin loves more than misinformation is when the western media pushes oversimplified stories. The idea that Ukraine is evenly split between a pro-European west and a pro-Russian east actually fits with Putin's preferred version of events; saying there's any "one map" you need to understand Ukraine's crisis" risks unwittingly spreading the Kremlin's story. Peter Pomerantsev explains:

    The big winner from the conceptual division of Ukraine into 'Russian' and 'Ukrainian' spheres may well be the Kremlin. The idea that Russia is a separate political and spiritual civilisation, one which is a priori undemocratic, suits the Kremlin as it looks to cut and paste together an excuse to validate its growing authoritarianism. So every time a commentator defines the battle in Kiev as Russian language v Ukrainian, a Kremlin spin doctor gets in another round of drinks.

    4. Bend the rules

    ... In short, it forces others – like Merkel or US secretary of state John Kerry – into engaging in a sparring match in which no rules exist that can't be bent or broken. The more boundaries Putin pushes and lines he crosses, the more the west will accept a more extreme version of "normal".

    5. Follow your script

    By spreading talk of fascists, of gangs of unknown armed men, of coups and self-determination and persecution – while sending armed men into Ukraine, egging on real and staged protests, bribing politicians and blocking the media – the Kremlin is enacting and realizing its propaganda on the ground. The Ukrainian government and military has shown remarkable restraint in not falling for the ploy, but Putin appears prepared to increase the pressure, especially as protester clashes grow more violent.

    James Meek sums up the motives:

    The revolution on Maidan … is the closest yet to a script for [Putin's] own downfall. In that sense the invasion is a counter-revolution by Putin and his government against Russians and Ukrainians alike.

    Timothy Snyder explains the goal:

    Propaganda is thus not a flawed description [of reality[, but a script for action … the invasion of Crimea was not a reaction to an actual threat, but rather an attempt to activate a threat so that violence would … change the world.

    Selected Comments

    Thomas Wengraf

    Brilliant propaganda move by the 'West' journalists in the USA. Can they do a similar one on the propaganda move by the West. Yes, of course they could. Will they? Not a chance!! Would the Guardian publish it? Very very unlikely.

    hashlnx

    Yeah, great job. You should also publish something like "How western propaganda push works."

    Hypocrites

    IrascibleOldGit

    Lying to your own people never works. We've seen it many times before - Argentina claiming that the British aircraft carriers had been sunk even as Harriers swarmed over Stanley, the Serbs appropriating the swastika to demonise Nato, Chemical Ali blithely declaring that the Yanks were defeated while Allied tanks rolled into downtown Baghdad.

    Putin is merely toying with the rope that will eventually hang him.

    TruthIsPrivelege IrascibleOldGit

    It is real funny.
    Take a look into Kiev and take a look on Crimea..
    Kiev - violence, beatings of people on streets, looting even banks..about 80 dead officially, God knows how many were murdered in reality..Nazi gangs looted army stocks and ruining around with automatic army rifles..
    Hundreds wounded - police officers.., people, intimidation is a norm of life.
    Sending zonder commandos to Russian cities which refused to bow to unconstitutional coup to intimidate them and Force to accept unlawful take over of power..

    Crimea - No one shot, No one wounded, No one intimidated, No one robbed, No one looted.
    People are safe, People are happy that got away from "democratic" "government" in Kiev.

    You are delusional at best - open yourself to Real Life.

    happytolive

    A mountain of lies which carries a history of bloodshed and plunder, with the power of apocalyptic proportions is acting against the people in Ukraine and Crimea. Unfavoured minorities are the first in danger. Ukrainians have been given the option to sell out their country to multinational "investors" and its people as an army of cheap labourers spread across an already bankrupt Europe. Those charlatans who were dreaming of gaining power are now in that position making a fool of themselves. The empire needs them to act as political pimps who can facilitate the sell-off in return for temporarily obtaining a position in the government.

    The empire calls the result of the vote illegal. Legality has always been defined by the rules and terms set by the powerful. They made many countries out of Yugoslavia through wars and votes. All were called the victory of the people. Now the vote of Crimea becomes illegal. For the same reasons the elected Palestinian group Hamas was called illegal and terrorist and again for the same reasons many elected presidents were removed from power through a covert operation supported by the empire. And recently the same operation managed to remove the elected president of Ukraine, which is the main reason why Crimea was forced to go to the polls.

    Passionate in resistance and willing to seek unity with their fellow citizens; that is what Crimeans showed during the election and that is the key to their victory. People acting is the real power, it is so huge and beautiful. And that is the heart of the matter. If Russia and Crimea want to sustain their victory they must mobilise their people, in the streets and their workplace and this is what the west is not able to do. A united people cannot be defeated. The west's favourable fighting ground is away from the public locked in with their corrupt executives, they have lost their place amongst their people.

    irishinrussia

    For God's sake, talk about rank hypocrisy, the Guardian, aka Maidanskay Pravda accuses the Kremlin of Propaganda. From an earlier post of mine;

    Words used in connection to Russia, Putin and pro-Russians by Sky News, France 24 and the Guardian - "rambling speech", "Russian propaganda" "sinister troops without insignias" "militants" "extremists" "Russians are sharply divided" "Crimea/South/East are divided, not everyone supports the Russians" "threats to gas supplies" "Putin has lost the plot" "ominous" "provocation" "provocateurs" "Russian pressure" "violent" "separatists" "brutal"

    Language used with regards to new Ukrainian Government/West - "peaceful demonstrators" "revolutionaries" "legitimate" "moderate" "civilians" "unarmed" "victims" "heroes" "democratic" "respect for human rights" "diplomatic" "innocent" "popular"

    irishinrussia

    Russia Today had one journalist rail against the Kremlin's actions and another resign in protest - sounds to me like RT is employing people with more integrity and independence of thought than the Guardian. Who'd have expected that?

    The Kremlin's propaganda organ has more balance in its recruitment than the "independent" "free" Guardian and other Western Media, my God, just take a look at France 24 coverage if you want to see blatantly biased and slanted reporting.

    Laserlurk

    You forgot an innovation in psy-ops all together.

    Invisible troops, no drop of blood, nobody dies in quiet protective posture invasion.
    And Western media is shocked. Where is our plane, guns, fire, hi-tech weapons, dead children and such? Scary indeed.

    greatwhitehunter

    hey I have just read a fine piece of propoganda in this article.

    I watched 60 minutes last night more propoganda. Looked at the video on this sight re klitchko describing him as opposition leader, he is the leader of nothing.Kitchko and the chocolate king are the acceptable face of the revolution because they appear honest and dedicated to their cause but the reality is the are not in USA plans or anyones plans for the future of Ukraine. If the protesters had of stuck to the agreement brooker by theese two and others ukraine would still be in possesion of crimea. Why dont the gardian focus on the radical elements with in the protesters(I include usa in this) that hijacked the revolution and destroyed what could have been a beautiful . Instead they have destroyed their own country

    Caroline Louise

    So I get it. The Russians do propaganda but we in the west just tell the truth.

    Which I guess means the Iraqis really did throw infants out of incubators and really did have WMDs. The Gulf of Tonkin wasn't a lie and Germans bayonetted babies in 1914.

    And of course even thinking that Svoboda (whose founder admires Josef Goebbels), is a fascist party is playing Putin's game for him.

    Yup that all seems pretty clear. Thanks for the informed and nuanced view. Thank God we aren't getting fed that dumbed down simplistic propaganda, hey?

    hashlnx

    More interestingly is that western media seems to approve sanctions against Russia and whatever state is the target. Ppl forget that sanctions harm not the goverment. Putin is already very rich just like Obama, the ones who is are going to suffer are civilians - the same ones western is now trying to make starve to death. Very good one for the Nobel peace prize (he won that for not being Bush actually) and Merkel, her puppet in EU is just following the same path issue sanctions against Russia and forgets that Russia can also issue sanctions againt the continent which is just leaving recession. Vey very very 'smart'

    FranklyS obsteve

    "Can we hear more about the West's "Propagandist's Playbook"? Or am Ito believe we don't have one?"

    Just keep reading the Guardian and you'll get a birds-eye view of the playbook. This media organ pretends to be objective albeit slightly left of centre, yet emits Neocon propaganda relentlessly. Should we laugh or cry?

    someoneionceknew obsteve

    http://www.amazon.com/Propaganda-Edward-Bernays/dp/0970312598

    "The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country."-Edward Bernays, Propaganda

    ElvisInWales

    UK propaganda in regards to Syria.

    1. Suppress news of AL-Qaeda operating inside Syria ignore all sources of information that verifies a large number of Al-qaeda and other extremist groups operating inside Syria.

    2. When it is overwhelming obvious that #1 has failed, explain that the majority of moderate rebels are only pretending to be extremist.

    3. Describe child soldiers as "little helpers"

    4. Blame Assad for absolute everything and ignore evidence in regards to who actually fired CW's in Ghouta.

    5. Demonise the Russians but not the Chinese whom also vetoed UNSC resolutions, its not their turn yet!

    I could go on and on but I think everyone knows that our MSM is not in any position whatsoever to talk about Russian propaganda. "little helpers" ffs how fucking sick is that!

    someoneionceknew ElvisInWales

    One of the authors of this little piece, Raya Jalabi, also did a particularly slimy hit job on the Syrian nun who was trying to get the real story out.

    Victor Chan

    Right, one propaganda demystifies the other..heheheh

    If there are no extremists, right wingers, neo Nazi running the interim govt, why the country is so divided throughout its history. Its complex history with Russia. The West would like to have us believe that all Ukrainians have been living in harmony and peace. In reality, there is a deep divide. This divide is so deep some Ukrainians would be wiling to die fighting against the Russians.

    RedMangos

    The guardian itself as been doing some annexing itself, in it's clandestine way.

    It's been busy annexing the United Kingdom into it's Soft- Atlanticism.

    Using it's soft power to devastating effect in Libya, this method failed miserably in Syria, now it's determined not to fail again with this wall to wall anti Russian coverage.

    Is the back stage, privileged access to the Oscars and beyonce exclusives worth this shameless behaviour?

    Khurram Khalid

    If someone can find a difference between what the Western mainstream politicians and media are saying on Ukrainian crisis, I will be grateful to him/her. Their self-righotusness even exceeds that of the religious fundamentalists from the lest developed societies. They all are unanimous to safeguard Western interests under the pretext of ''international law, freedom and democracy'' not by deploying diplomatic means but by using threats, carrying out unscrupulous propaganda, imposting sanctions, overthrowing governments, and inflicting wars.

    Albert Lyubarsky

    I live in Israel now. I was born in Donetzk. Propaganda or not, there is antisemitism in Ukraine. Very deep, congenital, non rational hatered of Jews. I don't need Putin's propaganda to knew it.

    The second issue: try to ask vast majority of Eastern Ukrainian people if they want to live in Ukraine. It is very easy for you to judge what's good and what's bad, but you never where there.

    Really I don't need Putin to tell me what I want. Russian culture, history, language is in my blood since I was a child ( as well as for millions of people from Eastern part of Ukraine)

    Bogdanich Albert Lyubarsky

    Personally I do not see how pointing out another countries steadfast rejection of the universality of law and their opinion that whatever they do is correct merely because they did it constitutes propaganda.

    The rejection of universality and the belief that an action is correct and "legitimate" merely because they undertook it is the hallmark of US "diplomacy." The examples are too numerous to cite but with respect to Crimea, Kosovo is right on point as is the US orchestrated overthrow of the Ukrainian government and the installation of the Right Sector fanatics in the new government.

    When we do it in Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Syria, not to mention Iraq where we used force, Russia chose not to do too much about it. However when we tried it in Ukraine they said enough. I don't see what's illegitimate or propagandist about that position. But then I am a person who believes in the supremacy of law and most Americans and certainly all American leaders do not.

    Colin Ball

    It is funny because a lot of the people here who are passionately agreeing with the author and re-stating how much propaganda Russia distributes have never lived in Russia, nor do they have any friends or family there. They form their anti-Russian opinions solely on the basis of what they have seen and heard ....

    ........... in western propaganda.

    gloriousrevolution

    As a piece of propaganda, no, sorry, as a piece about Russian propaganda, it fails because the balance is wrong. It's too obvious and hits the easy targets.

    If one had conceded at the beginning that the west has employed propaganda as well, and given some examples, and then gone after the Russian's propaganda this would then have appeared far fairer and therefore believable and authentic.

    Instead it's rather amateur and one-sided, whitewashing bar far the largest group inside the regime in Kiev, who resemble the BNP, but not wholely successfully. If one is going to write propaganda one really does need to understand how it works.

    [Apr 13, 2014] UN ambassador: Ukraine unrest has 'tell-tale signs of Moscow's involvement'

    The Guardian

    Details of the fatal exchange of bullets in Slovyansk were sketchy. On Sunday, several journalists reported that armed and camouflaged men were guarding checkpoints on the outskirts of the city. Interim Ukrainian President Oleksandr Turchynov has guaranteed amnesty to separatists who surrender, and announced a "full-scale, anti-terror operation".

    An Associated Press reporter found a bullet-ridden SUV on the side of the road where the gun battle was supposed to have taken place. There was a pool of blood on the passenger seat. Vladimir Kolodchenko, a lawmaker from the area who witnessed the attack, told the news agency a car containing four gunmen pulled up on the road in a wooded area outside Slovyansk and opened fire on Ukrainian soldiers who were standing beside their vehicles.

    [Apr 12, 2014] Pro-Russian gunmen seize key buildings in eastern Ukraine

    The Guardian

    Armed men storm police station and state security service building in Slavyansk and distribute weapons

    ... ... ...

    In a further sign of growing tensions between the two countries, Ukraine's state-run energy company Naftogaz on Saturday suspended gas payments to Russia.

    Russian gas giant Gazprom earlier this month increased gas price for Ukrainian consumers to $485 per 1,000 cubic meters (tcm) from $268 for the first quarter, saying Kiev was no longer eligible for previous discounts

    March

    [Mar 31, 2014] Kerry to meet Russia's Lavrov for Ukraine talks in Paris on Sunday

    The Guardian
    Colin Ball -> adamsmith123

    29 March 2014 6:51pm

    They are hypocrits for sure. In fact, Western hypocrisy now has soared out of control, and there are no longer any statements that are considered too ridiculous. The EU's Ashton has claimed that the pressure from the Far Right on Ukraine's parliament is "against democratic principles" ... this just weeks after Ashton supported the same people doing that and more to destroy the Ukraine parliament.

    It is almost as if they know the end is coming and no longer care how despicable their actions are.

    NWObserver -> Colin Ball

    29 March 2014 7:20pm

    They are psychopaths, not hypocrites. Psychopaths simply have no values, unlike hypocrites who think they are special and different rules apply to them than to others.

    By the way, every "person" who supports these leaders is a psychopath himself/herself.

    Arapas

    As long as Putin does not change his name to Gorbachev, all will be well.
    He knows very well that the destination of the US, is indeed Moscow.
    But the first thing a good General learns, is never to try and capture Moscow.
    How the two tally then?

    Obama is not a general, and is trying to do it by revolt.

    If Putin turns the tables, and the Russian speakers with Russian blood in their vains rise up and ask for referendums, the EU and NATO may understand better the power of the people.

    Unsettling some EU countries for the benefit of humanity, may be the only ace left in Putin's pack.

    Or, build his Nuclear arsenal up to 30K pieces may be his other option.
    Some only understand the power of the whip, and NATO falls into that category.

    Chaetoons -> Arapas

    29 March 2014 5:56pm

    Arapas -- there's another alternative.
    The timing of this Ukrainian "revolution" is suspect.
    For two reasons: (1) an attempt to mitigate the damage done by the NSA's "spying" on US friendly European associates . . . Effectively drawing attention away from that issue
    and (2) an attempt to undermine Russia's completion of its euro-asia coalition which was scheduled in 2015.
    If (and that's a big "if") Russia succeeds in pulling off that alliance which is based on destroying the value of the petrodollar by paying gold for oil, there will be no need to build up a nuclear arsenal. -- economics will accomplish his task for him!

    zigagiz

    29 March 2014 3:26pm

    Recommend

    The coverage, if one can call it that, of the Ukraine crisis by the Guardian has become so absurd that one has to read the Russian media to learn about statements made by the EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton and the US Embassy in Kiev!

    The lawless actions of Ukraine's nationalists have finally caught attention of the intl community, with EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton denouncing Right Sector for its 'pressure' and 'undemocratic' demand of the interior minister's resignation.

    A day after neo-Nazi activists who helped bring the acting government in Kiev to power turned against it, Ashton has issued a statement condemning the "pressure by activists of the Right Sector who have surrounded the building of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine."

    This "intimidation" the EU foreign policy chief believes, stands against all "democratic principles and rule of law," as Ashton called on the ultra-right group "to refrain from the use or threat of violence."

    Ashton stressed the need to "hand over any unauthorised arms to the authorities immediately."

    At the same time she welcomed the "impartial and credible investigation into the circumstances of the death of Aleksandr Muzychko," whose death in a police shootout led to the latest showdown outside the parliament in Kiev.

    The US Embassy in Kiev and the Delegation of the European Union to Ukraine also issued a statement 'condemning' the Right Sector tactics at the Verkhovna Rada.

    "We welcome the statements of Pravy Sector's leadership that they intend to keep their actions 'within the framework of the law." We urge all political forces to distance themselves from extremists, who undermine the efforts to stabilize Ukraine and to protect its sovereignty," the joint statement read.

    'Against democratic principles': EU's Ashton denounces nationalists' pressure on Ukraine parliament

    shaun

    29 March 2014 3:31pm

    Recommend

    Meanwhile the Crimeans are supposed to be giving the Ukranians their tanks and military equipment back. Not really the same as the "tense stand off" we have been reading about in the Press, is it?

    I think both sides have suddenly got cold feet at the thought of a really ultra-right, nazi inspired group, with masses of arms seized from the Ukranain military bases, - being able to dictate the course of events.

  • zigagiz -> shaun

    29 March 2014 3:51pm

    I think both sides have suddenly got cold feet at the thought of a really ultra-right, nazi inspired group, with masses of arms seized from the Ukranain military bases, - being able to dictate the course of events.

    Not both sides I'd say, the Russians have been warning loudly about the nazis since the beginning. I agree that it's them dictating the course of events. to the great surprise of "the West", who thought of them as extras in a movie. And the way I see it, the Ukraine nazis have no option but to fight - either that or they will be killed. Plus what they like most is war, chaos and destruction.

    erewhon888

    29 March 2014 3:38pm

    Politicians from the Reagan administration are being very vocal with their views, particularly Paul Craig Roberts.
    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/03/28/pushing-toward-final-war-paul-craig-roberts/

    The extraordinary transparent lie that Russia sent an army into Ukraine and annexed Crimea is now accepted as fact everywhere in the West, even among critics of US policy toward Russia.

    Obama, whose government overthrew the democratically elected government in Ukraine and appointed a stooge government that has threatened the Russian provinces of Ukraine, falsely accuses Putin of "invading and annexing" Crimea.

    Obama, or his handlers and programers, are relying on the total historical ignorance of Western peoples. The ignorance and gullibility of Western peoples allows the American neoconservatives to fashion "news" that controls their minds.


    That's quite astonishing from the supposed "right" in the USA.
  • [Feb 25, 2014] NSA and GHCQ Employing Shills To Poison Web Forum Discourse

    Al
    February 25, 2014 at 6:47 am

    FYI

    NSA and GHCQ Employing Shills To Poison Web Forum Discourse

    http://yro.slashdot.org/story/14/02/25/0359246/nsa-and-ghcq-employing-shills-to-poison-web-forum-discourse

    "Advocatus Diaboli writes with this excerpt from an article by Glenn Greenwald on the pervasiveness of shills poisoning web forums:

    "One of the many pressing stories that remains to be told from the Snowden archive is how western intelligence agencies are attempting to manipulate and control online discourse with extreme tactics of deception and reputation-destruction. It's time to tell a chunk of that story, complete with the relevant documents.. … Among the core self-identified purposes of JTRIG are two tactics: (1) to inject all sorts of false material onto the Internet in order to destroy the reputation of its targets; and (2) to use social sciences and other techniques to manipulate online discourse and activism to generate outcomes it considers desirable. To see how extremist these programs are, just consider the tactics they boast of using to achieve those ends: 'false flag operations' (posting material to the Internet and falsely attributing it to someone else), fake victim blog posts (pretending to be a victim of the individual whose reputation they want to destroy), and posting 'negative information' on various forums."
    -

    Remember, 'JTRIG'. I've looked at the Greenwald piece briefly and this news is massive. The ability to inject data into a user's datastream makes the planting and falsification of evidence very, very easy (so it will be done) and adds another possibility of blackmail/extortion by authorities who may not like certain dialogue. Simply, they can put stuff on your computer easily without you knowing it, then bang you up, or at least threaten to drag you through the mud. Stunning.

    The Mysterious Destroyed Russian Armored Vehicles

    moonofalabama.org

    Yesterday the Guardian's Shaun Walker claimed to have seen Russian military vehicle crossing the Russian border into Ukraine. I wrote elsewhere that I am skeptical of that claim:

    I'd be very careful in believing the stuff Shaun Walker writes. He was with the [aid-]convoy yesterday and the convoy is halted some 20-30 kilometer away from the border. How could he have observed the (not really well defined) border from there?

    Said differently: The Guardian and Shaun Walker have certainly not be neutral in their reporting and publishing about the Ukraine conflict. There is no reason for the Russian army to invade Ukraine especially not in near an aid-convoy which is covered by dozens of "western" journalists.

    But this afternoon the Ukrainian government claimed that its troops overnight had destroyed a some Russian vehicles:

    Ukraine's president, Petro Poroshenko, told David Cameron in a phone call on Friday that a column of Russian armoured vehicles had been destroyed.

    Now everyone in the media is jumping from the Shaun Walker report to the destroyed "Russian armored vehicle" to claim that it was a Russian military convoy that was attacked and destroyed within Ukraine.

    But all armored vehicles in Ukraine are "Russian armored vehicles" as they all were constructed during the Soviet times. All the 123 tanks and APC destroyed in this conflict, most of them from the Ukrainian army, were "Russian armored vehicles". The insurgents use such vehicles as does the Ukrainian army. So even if Poroshenko's claim is true, and there was no proof presented for it at all, there is actually nothing factual that lets one connect "Russian armored vehicles" to actual Russian army vehicles.

    The Russian government asserts that no Russian army vehicles have entered Ukraine. The Ukrainian government has claimed for several month that a Russian invasion is imminent or already occurring and a lot of other nonsense. Unless there is additional evidence that actual Russian army vehicles really entered Ukraine I will rather believe the Russian government.

    chris m | Aug 15, 2014 2:26:49 PM | 2

    But wasnt report from The Guardian newspaper (left wing news) confirmed by the Daily Telegraph? (right wing news)

    if so, then it must be true, IMO

    JSorrentine | Aug 15, 2014 3:48:09 PM | 20,

    As if it really needs be said as he works for the Guardian: Shaun Walker is an effing Western propagandist stooge.

    Here's little Shaun back in March of this year on Putin and Crimea:

    Viewed through the spectrum of this discontent, Russia's actions in Crimea are essentially a petulant riposte to the west: we think you break international law all the time, so we will too.

    The armed seizure of the Crimean parliament, the cynical insistence that Russian troops were not operating in Crimea when they clearly were, and the breakneck speed and flagrant violations involved in organising the Crimean referendum at short notice have been hidden behind a thread of plausible deniability stretched infinitesimally thin – and a knowing smirk on Putin's face.

    snip

    The president now takes counsel from an ever-shrinking coterie of trusted aides. Most of them have a KGB background like the president and see nefarious western plots everywhere.

    "There is a tremendous anxiety about Putin's decision-making and the erratic, impulsive behaviour," says Michael McFaul, who was US ambassador to Russia until last month. "Those that worry about the economy in Russia do not appear to be part of the decision-making process."

    McFaul, a professional academic who works on Russia, describes Putin's worldview as "paranoid". The Russian president genuinely believes that the US is attempting to destabilise Russia, he says: "Putin assigns us all kinds of agency in Russia and across the world that we simply don't have."

    ,

    And yet we are expected to expect FAIR and ACCURATE reporting from this effing stooge?

    This little turd could tell us that the sky is blue and we shouldn't believe a word he says.

    ,

    SingingSam | Aug 15, 2014 5:49:26 PM | 35

    This Russian convoy story illustrates the saying that a lie circles the globe twice before the truth gets its pants on.

    The truth's pants are on concerning MH17.

    http://www.youtube.com/embed/EpDKuN3cV_o

    Thanks to Saker for posting it.

    ,
    Posted by: ToivoS | Aug 15, 2014 6:22:07 PM |
    37

    It is difficult to attribute this story of the Russian army unit passing directly into Ukraine as pure fabrication. Reporters may distort the news or report as news lies from leaders but fabricating facts is just not something western reporters do. Shawn Walker and Roland Oliphant make some very specific claims. The Telegraph has the more detailed account. It sounds like Shawn and Roland followed the unit down an obscure rural road (unpaved?) until they saw them go through a checkpoint with armed men. How they knew this was the border is not clear but it seems very unlikely that they would be traveling around the Russian countryside using by-paths with having a GPS system. Also this Russian unit was traveling at night with their head lights on and didn't seem unsettled that they were being followed by a single car. Strange story to be sure.

    I have said this: While the US has consistently displayed a level of military incompetence that is breath taking, they are genius class at subverting other countries' elites.

    This includes political, economic, military, national security, media (etc) elites. Not to mention their total subversion of a huge number of NGOs.

    These elites first loyalty is to the US, their own country's coming a very poor second (if at all).

    The whole entire Ukrainian CF is a classic example of that. Looking at the UK and EU, almost to a person their political/media/etc elites are 'all the way with LBJ' (Australian saying). Large numbers of them are totally prepared to sacrifice their own economies and even their own populations (if things go hot) to stay on the party line.

    There is no difference in concept between this and the USSR's total control of Communist parties in the 'old days'. The US in fact has been vastly more successful in that their control is across a far larger spectrum of elite groups.

    Back in the 'old days' we used to call people that would deliberately (and with malice aforethought) put another country's interests over their own one...traitors.

    So when you read 'claims' and endless anti-Russian/Putin propaganda in the 'respected' UK/EU media (and the lack of questioning of obviously mendacious claims by all the Govts) then just simply reflect on the fact that their first loyalty is to someone else. And don't expect them to change, these people are owned, lock stock and barrel.

    Once you understand this you can deconstruct their 'message' and work out (in the way the old Kremlinologists used to do) what the 'Boss' is really worried about.

    In this case the US is obviously worried about the aid convoy, therefore something else has to be 'found' to distract everyone from it. They can't really shoot down another airliner, so this is perfect. It takes attention away from the aid convoy story while reinforcing the line that it really is a 'military convoy' while giving the UK/EU political satraps a 'justification' for more sanctions/actions etc. The order went out (no doubt through convoluted channels) and the 'answer' they wanted came back.

    Clever, in their own minds at least, in the echo chamber that they all live in. I mean the Guardian's and Telegraph's claims don't even pass the 'laugh test'. Russia invades Ukraine with a few vehicles, headlights on and in front of not just one but two western (and known to be hostile) journalists...this is the stuff of an Onion spoof.

    So these things can be useful in working out how they really think and what they are really concerned about, total propaganda, but there is always a purpose behind it, in what is put forward and especially the timing.
    My first approach is: "total piffle, but why and why now?".

    Posted by: OldSkeptic | Aug 15, 2014 6:41:09 PM | 38

    really | Aug 15, 2014 7:16:28 PM | 40

    @37

    Nato/US/Kiev trying to get justification for this...

    Hopefully some people are wising up finally...one can only hope that is the case.

    http://en.ria.ru/world/20140815/192052415/Foreign-Ministers-of-Russia-Germany-France-Ukraine-to-Meet-for.html

    ,

    Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 15, 2014 7:26:37 PM | 42

    "Journalists" are paid propagandists, unless proven otherwise. They have no choice. If journalists write anything that doesn't support national objectives they become ex-journalists.

    from Norman Solomon's "War Made Easy" -- How Presidents and Pundits Keep Spinning Us to Death.

    Dan Rather, an iconic US journalist:
    , ,

    So Dan brought us through the criminal war against Vietnam and the Nixon presidency.

    , ,

    Demian | Aug 15, 2014 7:54:12 PM | 45

    @OldSkeptic #37:

    I think this is a tempest in a teapot. The latest NY Times story on the convoy is again neutral. It is careful to say "Ukraine and NATO said", as opposed to writing in such a way as to give the impression that the claims are true.

    I have little interest in what Shaun Walker saw or didn't see. This isn't really a significant issue, since everyone knows that Russia is aiding the rebels in one way or another. The West's protestations about seeing Russian army vehicles cross the border carry little weight, given that Canada has been sending Boeing military transports to Kharkov.

    I have to admit that I am coming around to your point of view that the British press has become a laughing stock.

    The main thing is that, judging by the NY Times story, getting the Russian aid convoy to Lugansk appears to be proceeding. The Ukes and the Red Cross insist upon lots of paperwork, but there don't appear to be any outright refusals anymore.

    I have a hunch that the Uke army is disintegrating. That's based mostly on the feeling I get from Russian videos about the resistance. Also, at the beginning of the week, there was talk about the Ukes launching a major assault on Donetsk, but nothing of the kind appears to have materialized.

    Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 15, 2014 8:33:59 PM | 50

    The best evidence that the rebels are winning is that the MSM says that they are losing.

    My take (not necessarily the best) is that the ethnic Russians initially signed onto secession not realizing that freedom isn't free, and then when Kyev wantonly killed civilians the survivors of military age signed on to the effort. (That would make it similar to the US brutal occupation of Iraq, which served to increase the resistance.)

    The Pentagon, and Kyev also as its puppet, has never grasped the idea that military action without consideration of personal motivations toward freedom, politics and religion is futile.

    Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 15, 2014 10:06:14 PM | 54

    These are dangerous times. How dangerous? There are currently twenty-eight (28) US national emergencies which are threats to the national security and foreign policy of the United States. Ukraine tops the list at three (3) US national emergencies as seen here.

    Posted by: really | Aug 15, 2014 10:16:02 PM | 56@48 brian

    ,

    Posted by: Alex | Aug 15, 2014 8:40:07 PM | 50

    Good read there. You would think that people would have learned from the govt. lies that began the iraq travesty in 2003. I think the only way people will wake up and question what their govt. says before accepting is when scenes like gaza, eastern ukraine, somalia and sudan become their reality.

    We Americans live in a war zone free bubble, yeah we have our violence towards each other, fortunately we have not experienced US govt. policy induced modern warfare on our soil. Unfortunately, I think that is the only way masses of Americans would stop the blind acceptance of the govt. narrative.

    Unfortunately our "leaders" past and current meddlesome, belligerant and bellicose policies may actually bring that carnage to America's soil. Maybe the sheeple would wake up...right before they are mounted on the rotisserie of blind wilful ignorance.

    Posted by: somebody | Aug 16, 2014 2:41:04 AM | 59

    agree. There is this telling analysis from Timothy Garton Ash who has been paid to create a Ukrainian national identity by rewriting history.

    The most interesting thing over the past 24 hours was the Russian military convoy passing through the border into Ukraine, witnessed and photographed by Western and even Russian media outlets.

    And, more remarkably, has been the muted reaction from the West and indeed from the Western media. Some 4-5 weeks ago, the White House PR machine would have been going into overdrive, and warning of new sanctions iterations in the pipeline unless Russia "de-escalated." Thus far nothing we have seen next to nothing of note.

    Officially the Russian Ministry of Defense has denied the convoy exists/crossed – but the evidence is as conclusive as it could be from the tweets/snaps by the Guardian/London Telegraph/Novy Vremya. I sense this denial was tongue in cheek. But what is more important, I think the Russians wanted everyone to see this convoy crossing the border. Journalists were guided to the border crossing by the convoy of Russian white humanitarian trucks – and then the military convoy just appeared, turned right and crossed the border in front of the journalists. Russia wanted everyone to see that it has the capacity to cross the border into Ukraine at will – even with full Russian military regalia.

    It would seem as though Russia is goading/testing the West – to see the Western sanctions response.

    The fact that the European Union and the US have failed to respond to the Russian action yesterday in any meaningful way suggests that they really don't want to know now – they have had their sanctions fill, and Vladimir Putin has played them into sanctions stalemate.

    This much was probably evident from comments from the Hungarian prime minister, Viktor Orban, this morning, suggestive that Western sanctions have been counter-productive, and these were echoed by similar comments by his Slovak counterpart – I tend to disagree in terms of their impact (they stalled Russian action, and bought time for the Ukrainian military to find its feet). They also come as Europe suffered pretty weak macro data releases this week, suggestive that the crisis in Ukraine and with Russia is weakening sentiment across the European continent.

    For Ukraine, that probably means that its fate is now in its own hands – don't wait for its EU brothers to ride to the rescue, or the US for that matter which is currently focused elsewhere. The EU is divided anyway, and ineffective, and has been subject to "divide and rule" from Russia which has been using its own business leverage, "patronage," and contacts to full effect over recent months.

    He then proceeds to put a positive spin on it. The truth is Ukrainians have been badly used and fooled.

    Posted by: Demian | Aug 16, 2014 3:08:11 AM | 60

    @somebody #58:

    I remember reading Timothy Garton Ash in the New York Review of Books during the period of unrest in eastern Europe which ended with the collapse of the USSR, and considering him to be a very insightful observer. Compared to that time, the world has turned upside down.

    To quote from the piece you link to:

    Russia has failed in allowing a new nation to be forged

    Colonel Cassad holds to the same view. After the breakup of the USSR, the US engaged in a systematic campaign using "civil society" to turn Ukrainians into virulent, zombified Russophobes. The Russian failure was in not countering that by cultivating Russophilic NGOs, youth groups, etc. in the Ukraine.

    If you have references regarding how Ash helped "create a Ukrainian national identity", I'd be grateful if you posted them. From my meager reading on the subject, my impression is that the creation of Uke national identity had the following phases: (1) conquest by the Polish Empire of some western Russian territories; (2) sponsorship of an "independent Ukraine" by the German Reich during WW I; (3) encouragement of Uke nationalism by Lenin and Trotsky; (4) the development of Banderaism by the Nazis; (5) cultivation of Uke nationalism/Russophobia by USG after the breakup of the USSR.

    You suggest that Ash played a role in (5).

    Posted by: Oui | Aug 16, 2014 5:37:56 AM | 63

    @Demian

    From linked article Kyiv Post:

    "The most interesting thing over the past 24 hours was the Russian military convoy passing through the border into Ukraine, witnessed and photographed by Western and even Russian media outlets.

    And, more remarkably, has been the muted reaction from the West and indeed from the Western media. Some 4-5 weeks ago, the White House PR machine would have been going into overdrive, and warning of new sanctions iterations in the pipeline unless Russia "de-escalated." Thus far nothing we have seen next to nothing of note."

    Feeds into my sensing the rhetoric has toned down due to overwhelming evidence of downing MH-17 pointing to Kiev renegade right-wing forces with UBS complicity. Has someone leading the Ukrainian AF been sacked recently?

    Interesting to view small summit this weekend between France, Germany, Russia's Lavrov and Ukraine's Klimkin in Berlin. Perhaps a breakthrough … or a reset from an earlier summit on July 2, 2014 agree on cease-fire path ‒ before the event!

    Posted by: Oui | Aug 16, 2014 5:39:09 AM | 64

    NATO Policy: A Return to Deterrence

    NATO's Anders Fogh Rasmussen tells DW that growing tensions with Russia have forced the alliance into a renewed rivalry.

    It's actually the West's adopted "Containment 2.0 making Russia a pariah state " policy of the 21st century.

    Posted by: OldSkeptic | Aug 16, 2014 6:20:35 AM | 65

    Oui, re #63. It is not so much about 'containment' as 'crippling'.

    The US's obvious 'strategy' is #1 end gas/oil sales from Russia to the EU. By one way or another.

    This is a win-win in their minds. It cripples (they think) Russia economically it cripples Germany and the EU economically (even more than they have done it too themselves).
    In the first case it weakens a competitor, in the second it binds the EU and the increasingly 'uppity' Germans to the US more closely.

    So the EU, which the US 'owned' elites are supposed to 'take one for the Gipper'. Like Japan did when it willingly economically self destructed for the US.

    There is push back of course, the German economic elites are not happy, unlike most countries these days they are mostly manufacturing elites. And getting wiped out economically does not sit well with them.

    Financial elites are totally protected of course by endless Fed, etc money printing ..hence the UK is a 'attack dog' on Russia after some wavering, but I am sure that they are on line now after some promises by the Fed and BoE to print and protect them from any possible losses.

    So this is war, full economic war and fighting, for the moment, with proxies. The US is at war with Russia. Nothing Kiev does or says is without US consent (given the number of CIA,. State Dept, Military, etc people in Kiev and Brennan/Biden visits and calls).

    Hence their military incompetence.

    Look, connect the dots people. Israel, Iraq, etc, etc, etc ...and Georgia...that forgotten event. Straight US/Israeli playbook.

    They are good at killing, but terrible at fighting.

    US/Israel plan (they owned, probably still do, the Georgian Political/military elites) Sneak attack (killing all the Russian Peace keepers in their beds), then an ethnic cleansing attack on a defenceless city (see the pattern)...went on..until the Russian tanks came over the horizon then they (including reported US/Israeli 'advisers') ran for their lives.

    Chaney, the 'real' President wanted US troops to go in there (to die of course). 'Shrub' (Bush Jnr) actually didn't do that, I speculate at the behest of his father, who for all his faults wasn't a total idiot and Shrub stood up to Chaney, hence you northern hemisphere people's radioactive atoms are all not bouncing off of the stratosphere.

    somebody | Aug 16, 2014 6:40:58 AM | 66

    Timothy Garton Ash at the Hoover institution

    The Hoover institution

    have a look at the other fellows.

    Timothy Garton Ash on the new "European" identity

    Europe has lost the plot. As we approach the 50th anniversary of the treaty of Rome on 25th March 2007--the 50th birthday of the European economic community that became the European Union--Europe no longer knows what story it wants to tell. A shared political narrative sustained the postwar project of (west) European integration for three generations, but it has fallen apart since the end of the cold war. Most Europeans now have little idea where we're coming from; far less do we share a vision of where we want to go to. We don't know why we have an EU or what it's good for. So we urgently need a new narrative. I propose that our new story should be woven from six strands, each of which represents a shared European goal. The strands are freedom, peace, law, prosperity, diversity and solidarity. None of these goals is unique to Europe, but most Europeans would agree that it is characteristic of contemporary Europe to aspire to them. Our performance, however, often falls a long way short of the aspiration. That falling short is itself part of our new story and must be spelled out. For today's Europe should also have a capacity for constant self-criticism.

    I wonder why he forgot equality.

    Timothy Garton Ash on Freedom and Diversity

    For everyone in a diverse society, the feeling of belonging together depends crucially on the social and cultural signals sent and received every day.

    Timothy Garton Ash in the Guardian in March

    It would be equally naive, however, to pretend that there are not real fears among many in eastern Ukraine. Start by abandoning the labels "ethnic Ukrainians" and "ethnic Russians". They mean almost nothing. What you have here is a fluid, complex mix of national, linguistic, civic and political identities. There are people who think of themselves as Russians. There are those who live their lives mainly in Russian, but also identify as Ukrainians. There are innumerable families of mixed origins, with parents and grandparents who moved around the former Soviet Union. Most of them would rather not have to choose. In a poll conducted in the first half of February, only 15% of those asked in the Kharkiv region and 33% around Donetsk wanted Ukraine to unite with Russia.

    In the same poll, the figure for Crimea was 41%. But then take a month of radicalising politics and Russian takeover, with Ukrainian-language channels yanked off TV. Add relentless reporting on the Russian-language media of a "fascist coup" in Kiev, exacerbated by some foolish words and gestures from victorious revolutionaries in Kiev. Subtract Crimean Tatars and Ukrainians living in Crimea, who largely boycott the referendum. Season with a large pinch of electoral fraud. Hey presto, 41% becomes 97%.

    It is not just Russian "political technology" that changes numbers and loyalties. What happens in such traumatic moments is that identities switch and crystallise quite suddenly, like an unstable chemical compound to which you add one drop of reactant. Yesterday, you were a Yugoslav; today, a furious Serb or Croat.

    Timothy Garton Ash in the Guardian in February

    I have no idea what will happen in Ukraine tomorrow, let alone next week. But I know what all Europeans should want to happen over the next year and the next decades. In February 2015, on the 70th anniversary of the Yalta agreement, Ukraine should again be a halfway functioning state. A corrupt and rackety one, but still the kind of state that, in the long run, forges a nation. It should have signed an association agreement with the EU, but also have close ties with Russia. In February 2045, on the 100th anniversary of the Yalta agreement, it should be a liberal democratic, rule-of-law state that is a member of the EU, but has a special relationship with a democratic Russia. "Pie in the sky!" you may say. But if you don't know where you want to go, all roads are equally good. This is where we should want to go.

    That outcome would obviously be good for Ukraine. Less obviously, it would be good for Europe. Look at the shifting balance of world power, and look at the demographic projections for western Europe's ageing population. We'll need those young Ukrainians sooner than you think, if we are to pay our pensions, maintain economic growth and defend our way of life in a post-western world. Less obviously still, it would good for Russia. Russia has lost an empire but not yet found a role. Its uncertain sense of itself is inextricably bound up with its deep-seated confusion about Ukraine, a cradle of Russian history that many Russians still regard as belonging back in Russia's nursery.

    ,

    Very nicely presented. Democracy in Ukraine first and then in Russia. Ukraine in the Western Block and a friendly Russia next door.

    Talking about bringing democracy to a country this is Timothy Garton Ash on Iraq

    But on Iraq, I would still like to defend a position of tortured liberal ambivalence. Being liberal doesn't mean you always dither in the middle on the hard questions. I was strongly against the Soviet invasions of Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan, against the American interventions in Nicaragua and El Salvador, for military intervention in Bosnia and Kosovo, and for the war against al-Qaida in Afghanistan, all on good liberal grounds. Iraq is different and more difficult. I see four strong arguments on each side.

    He is part of the marketing of wars for liberals. He never explains why Ukraine should be part of Europe, why a conflict between Ukraine and Russia is necessary.

    @OldSkeptic

    True! I'm doing a write-up about the joint venture Ukraine with Georgia, exiled president Saakashvili as a house guest at Maidan protest and seeking a job as advisor to Poroshenko. Does the military-intelligence cooperation include upgrading the Su-25s with avionics from Israel's Elbit Systems? The Georgian version SU-25 KM outperformed the Russian fighter bombers in 2008.

    McCain, NGOs and Military Intervention

    Posted by: Oui | Aug 16, 2014 6:51:28 AM | 67

    add to 65

    Timothy Garton Ash on Ukraine as a state-nation - with an identity created by the state.

    Posted by: somebody | Aug 16, 2014 7:19:39 AM | 68


    Pepe Escobar's Asia Times article in case anyone has missed this.

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-02-150814.html

    Not jut the Kiev Regime that is guilty, but the British Regime, the American regime, and the Dutch Regime.
    But the bastards will get away with this as well. We are discussing tanks now, no?

    THE ROVING EYE Vanishing point … By Pepe Escobar

    First, passenger airliner MH370 vanished from Planet Earth. Then MH370 vanished from the news cycle. First, MH17 was shot down by "Putin's missile" - as Planet Earth was told. Then MH17 vanished from the news cycle.

    Where's Baudrillard when we need him? Had he been alive, the dervish of simulacra would have already deconstructed these two Malaysian planes as mirror images; from absolute vanishing to maximum exposure, then vanished again. They might as well have been abducted - and shot - by aliens. Now you seem them, now you don't.

    ...

    The Pentagon, with 20-20 vision over Ukraine, knows what happened. Russian intelligence not only knows what happened but offered a tantalizing glimpse of it in an official presentation, dismissed by the "West". The best technical analyses point not to "Putin's missile" - a BUK - but to a combination of R-60 air-to-air missile and the auto-cannon of an Su-25.

    ... After the missile takes out an engine, both the 777's max speed and its max altitude are well within the Su-25 fighter's speed & altitude capabilities. Then, the Su-25 can show off its cannon power."

    .. One cannot even imagine the tectonic geopolitical plates clashing were the Kiev regime to be deemed responsible. It would be the vanishing point for the whole - warped - notion of the Empire of Chaos's "indispensable" exceptionalism.

    So as MH370 totally vanished, the MH17 story must also totally vanish. ...

    Moscow, after deconstructing the "logic" of the ongoing Russia/Putin hysterical demonization, knows that whatever they say will be invalidated by the Orwellian Thought Police. Yet as much as His Master's Voice controls what the Dutch and the British might eventually reveal, Russia can counterpunch by leaking the crucial scenario to Malaysia. And Malaysia will talk.

    MH370 vanished as in a video game. MH17 was hit as in a video game. Now their respective narratives are being vanished. It's as if we are living a tiny rehearsal of the black hypothesis of post-history.

    ...

    So MH370 may have vanished into an antechamber of the black hypothesis. But MH17 is much more prosaic; it could have been just a false flag gone wrong. Thus, under Empire of Chaos's rules, it must also vanish. The question is whether global civil society will accept it - or has already entered its own vanishing point.

    ,

    Posted by: DM | Aug 16, 2014 7:20:46 AM | 69

    Yep, Malaysia will not keep silent.

    Posted by: somebody | Aug 16, 2014 7:50:42 AM | 70

    Yep, Malaysia will not keep silent.
    Posted by: somebody | Aug 16, 2014 7:50:42 AM | 69

    The threat of a Colour Revolution in Malaysia could shut them up.
    But if Dr Mahatir Mohammed (financier of the Mavi Mamara siege-busting mission to Gaza) is still a person of influence then he'll help the authorities find a way to blow the whistle on the US (Zionist Occupied) Govt and its lackeys.

    The story only needs to be republicised at regular intervals for the truth to seep out.

    Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Aug 16, 2014 8:35:54 AM | 71

    @68

    Exposure of the indispensable exceptionalism fallacy would be just what the planet needs. Those of us that already knows the validity of the afore mentioned also know the empire of chaos as Pepe calls them has/will commit(ed) incomprehensible extreme acts of terror to maintain the indispensible exceptionalism falsehoods.

    Because the empire of chaos values life other than their own sect as less than worthy to inhabit the planet and/or to only serve as a conduit to do its bidding, the planet's population would have to simutaneously and collectively reach the moment of realization. A complete earth wide revolt against Pepe's empire of chaos, this would require that people put aside their own best interests .

    The odds of that happening are not that good.

    Posted by: really | Aug 16, 2014 8:47:32 AM | 72

    elder detente statesman Egon Bahr proposes a solution - in German

    Security guarantees for Russia - neutral Georgia, Ukraine and Moldova.

    Must be too simple.

    Posted by: somebody | Aug 16, 2014 9:10:12 AM | 73

    Is An Airborne Biological Weapons Release Imminent?

    "...At the same time as the funding for "biodefense" was ramping up, the US Congress began passing a series of alarming laws ostensibly circling the wagons around any disclosures that might point to waterborne.

    In the USA PATRIOT Act, Section 817 (The Expansion of the Biological Weapons Statute), the US gave itself and its agents mmunity from violating its own biological weapons laws, in the disturbing and underreported caveat that "the prohibitions in this section shall not apply to any duly authorized US governmental activity."

    As previously reported, the US subsequently failed to comply with a politically binding mandate to report changes in its domestic biological weapons laws to the nternational treaty organization, the Biological Weapons and Toxins Convention. This omission could be considered. tantamount to an international snow-job.

    In quick succession, the US Congress then passed the Critical Infrastructure Protection Act of 2002, which made the public release of information pertaining to "protected infrastructure" punishable by time in the federal pen. Through a series of public information act requests, this reporter noted that "protected infrastructure" pertaining to water involved details about the existence of a second, parallel water line. The relevance of the second line to a bio/chem delivery system has been discussed here and here...."
    http://journal-neo.org/2014/08/14/is-an-airborne-biological-weapons-release-imminent/

    Posted by: really | Aug 16, 2014 10:00:51 AM | 74

    I have to add to the compliments of OldSkeptic's very well reasoned remarks. I had to copy it to my personal notebook. That and JSorrentine's comment a few days ago before JSorrentine was censored about how we should run the other way if we encounter any American be they drama professors, bicycle messengers, ice cream vendors, anyone, just run for the hills, that was great stuff too! Although horrible times, the end of an age.

    Posted by: geoff29 | Aug 16, 2014 10:27:29 AM | 75

    Mmmm, is there actually a shift taking place. It's gentle but a first step - France Calls on Ukraine for Restraint in Its Operations Against Self-Defense Forces | Politics | RIA Novosti

    It would be interesting to know if Hollande called them Self-Defense Forces or if that is the doing of RIA.

    Posted by: Fran | Aug 16, 2014 10:30:38 AM | 76

    really @ 55: "Maybe the sheeple would wake up...right before they are mounted on the rotisserie of blind wilful ignorance."

    Couldn't agree more, but not a prayer of that happening. Sad. Anesthetized by bread and circuses the oblivion to reality will continue.

    Andrew Korybko wrote the statement below about Senate Bill s.2277 and I agree whole heartedly.

    "...If it passes into law, the bill will be seen in hindsight as the one action which single-handedly ushered in the 'New Cold War' and could quite possibly revert Europe back to the powder keg that it once was 100 years ago."

    If I lived in anywhere in Eurasia I would want to know of this and scream at the top of my lungs to all who would listen. This is the type of bellicose legisltion in which masses of people are brainwashed,coerced, oppressed, disenfranchised and/or used as cannon fodder for resouce and territorial conflict.

    Mr. Korybko has his finger on this dangerous piece of poposed legislation spawned from the fetid halls of the US govt. Please spare some time and give it a read. It is written in two parts. Sorry to keep harping on it but the US/NATO are going to try and get this passed in this form or another and that can't happen.

    Part 1
    http://orientalreview.org/2014/08/01/the-american-aggression-enablement-act-and-the-us-eurasian-thrust-i/


    Part 2
    http://orientalreview.org/2014/08/01/the-american-aggression-enablement-act-and-the-us-eurasian-thrust-ii/

    Posted by: really | Aug 16, 2014 11:13:00 AM | 79

    Der Spiegel decides to report the facts.

    Brief translation: The convoy seen by the British journalists was nothing unusual, as separatists regularly cross from Russia to the Donetsk and Luhansk republics, they control the border on the Ukrainian side. The drivers almost certainly were not Russian soldiers but Russian volunteers and Ukrainian separatists.

    Posted by: somebody | Aug 16, 2014 11:43:08 AM | 80

    Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 16, 2014 11:52:30 AM | 81

    Dumping on American citizens who have no role in, no control of, and no interest in specific misguided government activities is silly. In general, polls indicate that growing numbers of Americans believe that U.S. global power and prestige are in decline. And support for U.S. global engagement, already near a historic low, has fallen further. The public thinks that the nation does too much to solve world problems, and increasing percentages want the U.S. to "mind its own business internationally" and pay more attention to problems here at home.

    Americans generally (unlike us) have more important things to worry about than events in far-off Ukraine.

    ,
    The French Press (all of it) has been worse than the Guardian and the Telegraph, if that is even possible to imagine.

    And the TV and radio is the absolute pits (I watched some extracts), the ppl interviewed simply state that the "humanitarian convoy" is not "humanitarian", without any detail(s) or explanations, and that the Russian army has "entered Ukraine" etc, or that is the message one gets. They can do this because it is oral - they stress one part of the sentence and whisper another so to speak - and they can later claim that they were so informed, or that they meant something different, etc. If they do make a stab at correctness they say "Reports from the British tell us that.." and don't mention it is just one or two journalists..I have never in my life seen so much disinfo from the French media (as far as I am aware!) It is insane. The written press usually mentions rebuttals from Russia, in paragraph 5 - 7, using terms like "shrilly denied at length" or "boldly stated outright that unthruths or inaccuracies were being spread" and so on. Sorry to be imprecise, I'm in a rage..

    Although I can't grasp the pulse of French opinion on all this, as it is August and most ppl are 'checked out' on vacation, the upside is that many ppl no longer believe the MSM and complaints are being made. Certainly the comments sections of the written press are either closed or show mostly sharp criticism. The neo-nazis in Kiev (the Fr. being sensitive to this aspect, as it usually serves to excuplate own guilt and brandish moral rigor), MH17 and now this 'convoy' stuff, are proving hard to manage by the MSM, and have at least, imho, busted the myth of 'plurality of the press' for ... some.

    What is generally not known in France but now coming out is that all the MSM press is subsidized by the State, that card-carrying journalists have a special status and get financial perks, even tax-breaks (I'm not clear on that aspect..), and that all MSM TV stations are either owned by the 'State' or by large Conglomerates.

    What is lacking, as elsewhere, is a platform for opposition. But some ppl at least are discussing this topic.

    Posted by: Noirette | Aug 16, 2014 11:55:08 AM | 82

    "...Americans generally (unlike us) have more important things to worry about than events in far-off Ukraine.

    Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 16, 2014 11:52:30 AM | 80

    Although I agree with your sentiment to a degree. Your statement above is one of the primary reasons why Americans currently have degrading living conditions at home and a wreckless bellicose foreign policy abroad.


    Posted by: really | Aug 16, 2014 12:09:10 PM | 83

    Thanks somebody @77 - I haven't decided yet if google is my friend. :-)

    Posted by: Fran | Aug 16, 2014 12:42:42 PM | 84

    Don, & really @ 82,

    Dumping on Americans is not "silly" it is a premeditated action to bring in line those Americans who might seriously question the official global and domestic doctrines and actions that are bringing such public sentiments into a (hopefully) groundswell. Why else the so militarized police throughout our country? Conquest and exploitation abroad while repression at home. Sounds like the agenda of ruling elites not only in Smedley's days but today also. Unfortunately for all of us, they employ far more effective means today than one hundred years ago. Americans, I believe, are generally discovering that there are more important things to worry about than the daily soaps; i.e. the home front repression and how it is linked to the global conquest and exploitation

    Posted by: juannie | Aug 16, 2014 12:46:53 PM | 85

    Regarding Americans, the majority of the people no longer matter to TPTB. Globally, and in the US. I'm sure Cheney opines Obama is the worst of presidents may have a lot to do with the possibility that Obama is losing control of the population on his watch, for not beating us remorselessly in line further than he does already with only the manipulative fabrications, where physical repression is what's required and not adequately delivered on our way to the slaughterhouse we deserve for our own good. These folks think and act as though they've become immortal gods and believe it. Many of us here struggle listening to the lies, the Fogh of War, the arrogance, and confusion made more confusing. I don't think it's Obama's fault, that his schtick is becoming ineffective, he's relentless about it.

    If here in the States we by some miracle get to the next election, a lot of pundits think we'll get Clinton on Counterpunch etc. Maybe. . .but since voting is irrelevant, and human beings like us are irrelevant and expendable, we might get another of these authoritarian goons appointed on us to bring us in line, make us wear flag pins, hang ribbons from our trees, sick the cops on us for doing the right thing, and worst of all, subjecting us to deeper states of hypocrisy than we've ever experienced before, driving us all further underground to maintain some semblance of harmony and quietude.

    Posted by: geoff29 | Aug 16, 2014 3:16:45 PM | 93

    Is Kiev lying Or is Kiev lying by Eric Draitser

    When that task is to defend and promote neoliberalism all those consideration are really does not matter at all.
    July 25, 2014 | RT Op-Edge

    The current conflict in Ukraine provides a plethora of examples of the power of doublethink in shaping narratives in order to justify any actions, beliefs, and statements that are either untrue or so grossly distorted as to be entirely unbelievable.

    The novelist George Orwell coined the term doublethink in his classic dystopian novel 1984. He defined doublethink as

    "The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them...To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just as long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies."

    Although the concept is elucidated in a work of fiction, it has clear and unmistakable parallels in the real world that, like Oceania – the supranational state in which the novel takes place – is in a state of constant war, and seemingly has been from time immemorial.

    For anyone following the situation in eastern Ukraine closely, and specifically the accusations made by Kiev against both the anti-government rebels and Russia, it seems that Oscar Wilde's quip that "life imitates art" is undoubtedly true. For it is clear that doublethink is a fundamental part of how the regime in Kiev sees this conflict, its role in it, and the narrative it wishes to tell the world.

    Double thinking MH17, the rebels, and Russia

    As the world's attention has been focused on eastern Ukraine in the wake of the tragic downing of Malaysia Airlines flight 17, the rhetoric coming from Kiev (and its patrons in Washington) has been provocative to say the least. Referring to the eastern rebels as "terrorists," the nominal government of Ukraine has accused the rebels of being responsible for shooting down MH17. According to their claims, the forces fighting the Kiev regime shot down MH17 with sophisticated Buk anti-aircraft missile systems supplied by Russia. Naturally, such accusations imply that Kiev believes that the rebels have the capability of carrying out such a highly technical and logistically difficult attack.

    Indeed, Kiev's assertions are supported by the US, with the State Department, as well as unnamed intelligence officials speaking with various western media outlets, echoing the sentiments of its client government in Ukraine. As the Wall Street Journal reported on July 19th:

    "New US intelligence assessments indicate that Moscow likely provided pro-Russia separatists in eastern Ukraine with sophisticated antiaircraft systems in recent days, matching evidence put forward by Ukraine and bolstering charges that Russia was the source of the weapon that shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 this week, killing 298... US officials say they now suspect that Russia supplied the rebels with multiple SA-11 antiaircraft systems by smuggling them into eastern Ukraine with other military equipment, including tanks."

    And so, both Ukraine and the US have reached the conclusion that, not only did the anti-government rebels have the motive and opportunity, they had the means to down MH17 as well. Despite the fact that neither Kiev nor Washington has provided hard evidence to back up their assertions, they have continued to maintain that only the rebels, with Russian assistance, could have been responsible for shooting down a commercial airliner flying at 30,000 feet. They maintain that the rebels were armed by Russia and were entirely capable of carrying out this attack.

    OK, so even if we might doubt the claims of Kiev and Washington, at least they are consistent, right? Well, not exactly.

    On Wednesday July 23rd reports out of Donetsk indicated that two of the Ukrainian military's ground attack planes had been shot down near the area where MH17 was downed. While these latest developments are no surprise given the fact that Kiev's forces are still engaging in military operations despite calls for a ceasefire to allow the MH17 investigation to occur, what is interesting are the comments from Ukrainian officials.

    Asked about the downing of these two jets, Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for the Ukrainian National Security Council, stated,

    "They were not downed by terrorists [anti-Kiev rebels]...According to our preliminary information it was done from across the border."

    So, despite having no evidence to support the claim, the Kiev authorities continue to accuse Russia, not the rebels, of downing the planes. As Neil Buckley of the Financial Times wrote:

    "The Ukrainians alleged Russian forces were involved in shooting down a Ukrainian An-26 transport plane and another Su-25 last week before the Malaysian aircraft was downed over rebel controlled territory. In both cases Ukrainian officials said they did not believe the rebels had the technology to shoot down planes at the height at which they were flying [emphasis added]. Russia denied any involvement."

    Wait, what? We have been hearing for days that the rebels do in fact have the capability to shoot down planes at any altitude thanks to the Buk (SA-11 in NATO speak) provided by the alleged Russian backers. So, which is it? Either the rebels do, or do not, have the capability.

    It seems that, rather than basing their assertions on facts and evidence, the regime in Kiev and its patrons in Washington have been playing fast and loose with facts, fitting them into their preconceived narrative in which everything bad that happens is because of Russia and "Russian aggression," and any evidence to the contrary is seen as merely "Russian propaganda." However, deflecting attention away from the facts can only get you so far. Eventually, people start asking questions and becoming skeptical of your credibility. Indeed, this is precisely the point at which Kiev finds itself today.

    The doublethink is self-evident. The anti-government rebels have the technology and capability to shoot down MH17, and simultaneously do not have the technology and capability to shoot down the easier targets of the Ukrainian jets. Obviously, the statements coming from the Ukrainian authorities are based on political expediency rather than facts and evidence. Perhaps this is why, at every opportunity, they proclaim that Russia is behind everything that happens in eastern Ukraine. Because, as anyone who has ever lied knows, lies are like the proverbial snowball rolling down the hill.

    Orwell wrote of doublethink:

    "To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget, whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself – that was the ultimate subtlety; consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed."

    While Orwell was describing his fictional dystopia of Oceania ruled by "the Party," he might as well have been describing Kiev's mentality and public posture today. Of course, the same could be said for the US State Department and political establishment throughout this crisis. Indeed, the untruths, omissions, and distortions have reached new levels. In time however, their "carefully constructed lies" will all fall away, leaving their false narrative exposed for the world to see. For the sake of the people of eastern Ukraine, and those of us around the world who shudder at the thought of further US-Russia escalations, let us hope that moment comes sooner rather than later.

    The statements, views and opinions expressed in this column are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RT.

    Eric Draitser is an independent geopolitical analyst based in New York City and the founder of StopImperialism.com.

    April

    Kiev's protesters: Ukraine uprising was no neo-Nazi power-grab by Luke Harding

    March 13, 2014 | The Guardian

    Владислав Белогрудов, 13 March 2014 9:28pm

    Security people of ex-government told that the coup has been planned and prepared by CIA since December. They tracked money flying into Ukrainian capital in bigger amounts than usual, also snipers were from outside.

    The worst thing is that no one journalist will ever tell here "pro-russian" point of view

    SybilSanderson, 13 March 2014 9:41pm

    And here as well,.the comment section taken over by people who believe any bullshit RT or PressTV throws as them, as long as it fits their belief.

    They are the "left" equivalent to the Palins of this world. Warmongers who have no problem that a sovereign country is invaded because a propaganda machine told them it is because there are "Nazis" everywhere..

    Nixon, Reagan or Bush would be so proud of you.. just a little tweak in the propaganda and you would invade Vietnam..or Iraq.

    spiceof -> SybilSanderson, 14 March 2014 12:10am

    And you Sybil believe any bullshit the corporate press throws to you, you've been nicely domesticated. I oppose the coup and am no warmonger, quite the contrary, hence the opposition.

    Democracy has a due process, it must be followed and respected by all sides. The people who toppled the legitimate government of Ukraine, (and the Western governments who encouraged such behaviour) are setting precedent that the same principle of mob rule will be applied against them by others. You've on the wrong side here Sybil.

    GuyGagne, 13 March 2014 9:42pm

    http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140222/NATION/302220027

    If you go to this link, you can see what appears to be protesters with baseball bats (or wooden clubs of some sort), standing guard outside the Kiev parliament building. This is from 22nd February, the same day Yanukovych was ousted by a 328-0 vote. I don't know if the picture itself is from 22nd February. Does anyone know when it was taken?

    I'm just thinking that it might be intimidating to go into the building to vote on whether to impeach the President, when men with weapons are standing outside. Particularly if the men with weapons thought it a good idea to dismiss the President.

    I've noticed a lot of people discussing how Russian troops in Crimea could influence voting, making any decision invalid. I may agree with that, although the same reasoning ought to apply to the Kiev parliament dismissing Yanukovych, if that picture really is from the day of the vote.

    BiggusDickus, 13 March 2014 9:45pm

    According to those who took part in it, the uprising was a broad-based grassroots movement, launched by people fed up with Yanukovych and involving all sections of society. Some demonstrators were indeed nationalists. Others were liberals, socialists and libertarians.

    That might be so but rather than believe the words of those who took part in it, who were actually there; surely we should all instead prefer to believe the gaggle of self-loathing, anti-Western sock puppets who clearly know far more (their tin foil hats have helped to deflect the evil empires z-rays)

    subgeometer -> BiggusDickus, 14 March 2014 12:33am
    If you've got resort to 'self-loathing'(shades of the 'self-hating Jew') and invoke tin-foil hats to get your point across, you've lost the argument.

    Most of the demonstrators weren't fascists, but in the vanguard was Right Sector, an outfit reminiscent of the SA. Their leader is now a deputy interior minister, with his hands on the tools of internal repression.

    Svoboda has the deputy PM and several other ministers. There are fascists in the government

    glennor, 13 March 2014 9:46pm

    The West aligned itself with right-wing people in the Western half of Ukraine to topple the democratically elected government, for the common interest of moving Ukraine away from Russia.

    Now the Eastern half of Ukraine does not recognise or take orders from Kiev because they are not legitimate. Russia has offered protection to the Eastern regions if Kiev and their American backers attack.

    All the anti-Russian propaganda in the world does not change this fact. In Europe we should start to distance ourself from the Americans. Because of this debacle, Germany is now backing fascists in Ukraine to split it from Russia. This is beyond absurd...

    SexyWhiskers, 13 March 2014 9:48pm

    Surely there was some grassroots movement, decidedly not "broad-based" tho. Whatever the scale of the popular discontent however, it was certainly taken advantage of by a motley bunch of political adventurers who seized the moment and (with a little help of paramilitary thugs) grabbed the power on the back of this movement - and that's the banal pattern of the popular revolutions, Eventually all of them were betrayed.

    Hopefully things will shape up but I wouldn't be surprised if before long all these grassroots protesters suddenly realized how good they had it under Yanukovitch compared to these new guys. Dictatorship of "Svoboda", anyone?..

    peekaboo, 13 March 2014 9:51pm

    Haran characterised the events of the tumultuous past three months as a "national liberation and anti-corruption movement". It was pro-decency, and opposed to a president who behaved "like a puppet of Russia", he said.

    But exactly the same thing happened in 2004, and nothing changed except replacing pro-Moscow oligarchs with a set of pro-West oligarchs

    Sitting at his home in Kiev's high-rise suburbs, he looked exhausted and strung out. He dismissed Sunday's poll in Crimea as a "pseudo-referendum".

    If a Crimean majority wants to leave Ukrainian control, then to oppose such an outcome would be anti-democratic and totalitarian

    alterismus, 13 March 2014 10:01pm
    Oh, and while our impotent leaders make sorry attempts at solving this horrid equation, 1 person died in violent clashes today in Donetsk, at least 50 injured.

    Congratulations, EU/USA! Another civil war up your sleeve! You moronic imbeciles...

    comrade1, 13 March 2014 10:03pm

    I've certainly suspected in the very least some sort of Western intelligence involvement in the protest movement in Kiev, simply because the West has a history in recent years of fomenting and agitating protests and chaos as a method of removing governments they find undesirable - certainly the outcome serves Western geopolitical interests.

    realsayer, 13 March 2014 10:03pm

    In today's parlamentary discussion on Ukraine in Berlin, Germany, Oleh Tyahnybok, member of the new Ukrainian goverment was quoted:

    "Take up guns, fight the Russian sows, the Germans, the Jewish pigs and other underhumans.."

    I would say there is nothing more to add.

    bongoid, 13 March 2014 11:30pm

    This is not a fascist coup, this is a western coup where fascists were used as shock troops and a huge demonstration was conjured up by paying a large number of people to protest for 25 dollars a day.

    That money was western tax money. There were certainly a hard core of demonstrators who were genuinely demonstrating for freedom and democracy (whatever one understands as democracy, certainly freedom in the west means primarily the freedom of speculative capital to hollow out economies for financial entities).

    This revolution was driven by western financial and miltary interests under the cover of humanitarian aid.

    OTPOR have been assisting in instigating fake revolutions in various countries including Venezuela and the Ukraine. They receive funding from the USA. Their logo appears anywhere a country needs destabilising so that western strategic interests may be furthered.

    bilejones -> Putitout, 14 March 2014 1:02am

    You live in a fantasy world.

    The US has been fucking around in Ukraine since 1991

    http://www.sott.net/article/273602-US-Assistant-Secretary-of-State-Victoria-Nuland-says-Washington-has-spent-5-billion-trying-to-subvert-Ukraine

    HansZandvliet, 13 March 2014 11:37pm

    Moreover, he was Jewish.

    I'm not trying to argue all protesters were fascists, but the above argument about why Mr. Joseph Schilling could not have been a fascist, struck me as one of those typical preconceptions leads to applying double standards for Jews.

    Following the following WikiPedia description of fascism...:

    Fascist movements shared certain common features, including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation and asserts that stronger nations have the right to expand their territory by displacing weaker nations.

    ... fascism has nothing to do with whatever kind of religion. It doesn't promote any, it doesn't condemn any. Actually, under Mussolini most fascists were Catholics.

    So why could a Jew not be at the same time a fascist? Comparing the above description of fascism with the way Israel currently behaves toward dissent and toward the Palestinians, I see striking similarities.

    So excuse me for being a bit off topic, but regarding the Israelis as a special kind of people to whom apply special standards, is something that annoys me tremendously and I think we should dump it in the rubbish bin of history.

    AndrewSa20, 13 March 2014 11:51pm

    All of the above is Russian propaganda. These people are angels!

    alphard -> AndrewSa20, 14 March 2014 12:20am

    so, russia should kill them with 100000-1000000 innocent peoples?

    AndrewSa20 -> alphard, 14 March 2014 2:05am

    No, killing of 100000-1000000 innocent peoples, that is not Russian way. That would be UK and/or US way of action, have a look at Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Iraq, Yugoslavia, oh yes I forgot about drones! All Russian propaganda!

    ArticSunrise, 14 March 2014 12:05am

    In reality whether they are fascist or they belong to the Ukrainian knitting club, the fact is that there was a coup, and regardless of what criminal was in power, he was an elected criminal who have agreed to hold elections in December. please read The Ukrainian constitution, article 111 then, if you have time and, bias permitting go and read the constitution of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, article 18.7. then I suggest you look at what happen in Kosovo.

    The bottom line is that if the coup wouldn't have happened, Crimea would wake up on Monday as part of Ukraine, not Russia. This was a gross miscalculation by the west and the "fuck the EU" lady.

    sjxt, 14 March 2014 12:07am
    It's a good article. It also pretty comes to the same conclusions as those in the thoughtful article by Simon Shuster in Time the other day, Putin Says Ukraine's Revolutionaries Are Anti-Semites. Is He Right?

    beentheredonedat -> sjxt, 14 March 2014 10:59am

    From said article, Dmytro Yarosh:

    Pravy Sektor, he explained, does not divide people along ethnic or religious lines. "We divide people into three categories," he says. "The first belong to the brotherly communities that fight with us for our ideals, regardless of their nationality. The second are the ethnic minorities who respect the right of Ukrainian people to be the rulers of our own land, and as a result we are tolerant of them and their religion.

    The third category is made up of the people who threaten our national rights to have an independent Ukrainian nation." The latter group, regardless of their ethnic background, are the enemies of Pravy Sektor.

    Spoken like a true democrat.

    Scipio1, 14 March 2014 12:12am

    Another attempt to whitewash the overthrow of a democratically elected government by mob violence.

    If, as Mr Harding asserts, the majority of the protesters were not ultra-nationalist paramilitaries, and were ordinary moderate folk demonstrating against the corrupt government of Yanukovich, and if they also represented the majority of the Ukrainian people, why did they not simply remove Yanukovich in the Presidential elections due in 2015? This is, to be sure, a rhetorical question; the problem for Harding and the rest of the whitewash brigade is that there is no convincing answer. Doesn't sit well does it. Liberal/left Guardian journalist supports extra-parliamentary violence spearheaded by openly fascist paramilitaries against a sitting democratically elected government. Takes a bit of Jesuitical sophistry to get around that one.

    The fact is that the glorious revolution was hijacked by ultra-nationalist groups who turned protest into armed insurrection.

    Having been a visitor to the Ukraine since 2006, I distinctly remember TV political discussions, where all shades of political opinion were given air time, including Yatsenyuk and his Fatherland party. I can also remember buying English language papers, as well as the Kyiv Post (or was it Kyiv News) a Ukrainian English language publication with a broadly centre-right perspective.

    Okay so Yanukovich's was not a perfect democracy by any means (can you name any which are?), but the Ukraine was not a dictatorship, and Yanukovich was certainly not Ceaucescu.. Oppositionists were able to give voice and there were opposition parties who were openly allowed to put forward their views and programmes. This unlike the new regime in Kiev however which has seen fit to ban opposition parties. Moreover, opposition parties have had the HQs burnt down, their members and supporters intimidated, and their activities outlawed.

    Is this the brave new world that Mr Harding, speaking for the Guardian is presenting to us. We must assume therefore that the Guardian takes the same view, unless otherwise stated. Even Max Keiser's programmes carries the disclaimer that the views expressed do not necessarily reflect the position of the Russian Government. Come on Guardian, where do you stand? But this might also be a rhetorical question.

    grimpeur, 14 March 2014 12:18am

    What with the USA/NED attempts to overthrow democracy in Venezuela and the Ukraine, the attempt to blame the Syrian chemical attack on the Syrian government which to be fair is nothing more than I expect from US neo-cons intent on 'full spectrum dominance, but the Guardians treatment of these issues has been outrageous.

    For a supposedly left of centre newspaper committed to some kind of objectivity and authenticity it has really sunk to new depths over the last few months, but they really don't get any lower than this article from Harding! Ignoring the Nuland video and the Ashton video, trying to whitewash the Far Right, claiming that the Right Sector are not interested in 'post-revolutionary politics' when their leader has indicated he may run for President, ignoring the number of Far Right in the Government, relying on the testimony of one, hardly objective person, who was in the Maidan's organising committee, using the evidence of one fatality who was not a fascist to claim that this shows it was not a fascist coup is simply breathtaking.

    Harding may be a journalist but this kind of approach would not even pass muster for an 'A' level answer much less an undergraduate response. Never has Craig Roberts description of western journalists as 'prestitutes' been more apt! Finally Mr Harding things might seem fine in Kiev but you do realize that the Ukraine is a deeply divided country and the actions of the last few weeks may seem positive in that Western city but those same actions may be anathema to the southern and eastern provinces, and particularly the Crimea. In such a deeply divided nation you need the politics of compromise but the idiocy of the USA and EU in promoting this extreme right-wing nationalistic Russophobia within the Ukraine will probably lead to the country splitting in two.

    My only objection to such a scenario is that the UK and the EU will have promoted neo-nazis into western governmental institutions as the price for developing a NATO crusade to the Russian borders. After the collapse of the USSR NATO should have been closed down, it had lost it's raison d'etre, and the West should have stuck to its promises of not using NATO to advance into former Soviet countries.

    geot22, 14 March 2014 12:33am

    This is the problem Americans (and UK?) have in understanding fascism.

    "Schilling, however, was an unlikely fascist. A father of two daughters, he and his wife Anna had lived in Italy. They had four grandchildren. Moreover, he was Jewish"

    Fascists have children; Nazii's insisted on it. And some fascists even famously lived in Italy. But it's not antisemitic Naziism we're talking about. (Although that is clearly an element in that part of the world. Russia too. It was USSR who was the more universal.) Although Nazii's are fascist, fascist are not Nazii's. Something else, not quite definite for being a broad category, but certainly as abhorrent.

    I think for us the difficulty lies with our people's corporate culture. We're so at home in it. Challenging it is odd, and threatening, quite like people of the 17th century must have felt overthrowing kings. Corporate leaders are seen as the great, iron, men, the 'deciders,' certainly the knowing and 'smart' decision makers, who transcend history to make the future. In spite of democracy's supposed leadership, it's in their hands, by our will. What has democracy to say against them, when we're all obliging capitalists? Now we trust them to make this war from our European side, and from the Eurasian side.

    Severe corporatists' influence is in a sense government within the government, a fascist eluding. They are in DC daily, and actively, vs citizen's biannual holiday. The corporate fascism of Mousalini. A big hit, with Hitler, in America's corporate anti-unionism before the actual war. We stand guard against little Austrian corporals with funky moustaches. But NSA, Wall Street, corporations-are-people, super people - all of that founds fascism. They really want Ukraine in EU, even NATO.

    Mobs in the street. Brown shirts, thugs. The Nationalist hoards, suddenly, 'whipped up,' bringing down the elected gov. Fascist-like. Let alone the self proclaimed, or associated, elements. They are really, essential royalists at base, vs democrats. As are fascists. As we are, though we seldom face it.

    But let's not fear to call it fascism,if it is, simply because there are differences from Nazi Germany. That is a terrible mistake. To say a fasicist regime is not fascist, because Nazi Germany..., is just as bad as so many complacent Americans, smug, because Russia... No. Only democracy (with a civil rights set aside), and all it entails, like secure citizenry.

    Overlooking fascism today, here and abroad, I think, is the mistake we are doomed to make, that will be our unbinding. For lack of insight. Because it can't be faced as we do, merely territorially; we must deliberately make a philosophical moral commitment to peace and democracy generally, not simply assume it. Let NSA, and all its tendrils, corporate and secret, be our measure of our will and efficacy.

    nouvelleorleans, 14 March 2014 12:36am

    It was a CIA coup - the current installed government is illegitimate and they have no right to deprive Ukraine of democracy - should they have a gripe they can refer to the ballot box

    Radicalyoubet, 14 March 2014 12:40am
    A little bit of History...
    1917

    During the Russian Revolution when Red Army marched back into Kiev, it was received with enthusiasm; the retreating nationalist forces massacred Jews,
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Lenin stated, "The national programme of working-class democracy is: absolutely no privileges for any one nation or any one language; the solution of the problem of the political self-determination of nations, that is, their separation as states by completely free, democratic methods.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This situation naturally shifts the leadership to the most reactionary Ukrainian cliques who express their 'nationalism' by seeking to sell the Ukrainian people to one imperialism or another in return for a promise of fictitious independence."

    Seems nothing has changed.

    priceus, 14 March 2014 1:05am

    It is no grassroots movement, it was launched and organised with foreign money from Washington and Brussels.

    I don't think there have been many 'grassroots' revolutions in history - the medieval peasant revolts maybe. Revolution in these times is usually the glove worn by foreign-empire 'regime change'. Sad thing is, often there is an underlying grievance and truthful argument among some protesters which the foreign regime changers ride on for a while (and always eject in the end win or lose).

    Won Hturt, 14 March 2014 1:10am

    Good piece of propaganda work, i like how you state that 102 "protestors" were killed by snipers while completely ignoring the fact that a majority were riot police... hummm bias reporting? Likely another copy and paste journalist from the west!

    Orphadeus, 14 March 2014 1:23am

    Its a weasel article.

    White supremacist banners and Confederate flags were draped inside Kiev's occupied City Hall, and demonstrators have hoisted Nazi SS and white power symbols over a toppled memorial to V.I. Lenin. After Yanukovich fled his palatial estate by helicopter, EuroMaidan protesters destroyed a memorial to Ukrainians who died battling German occupation during World War II. Sieg heil salutes and the Nazi Wolfsangel symbol have become an increasingly common site in Maidan Square, and neo-Nazi forces have established "autonomous zones" in and around Kiev.

    An Anarchist group called AntiFascist Union Ukraine attempted to join the Euromaidan demonstrations but found it difficult to avoid threats of violence and imprecations from the gangs of neo-Nazis roving the square. "They called the Anarchists things like Jews, blacks, Communists," one of its members said. "There weren't even any Communists, that was just an insult."

    "There are lots of Nationalists here, including Nazis," the anti-fascist continued. "They came from all over Ukraine, and they make up about 30% of protesters."

    http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/us-backing-neo-nazis-ukraine

    " The activists were attacked by more than thirty of the Nazis, who rushed at them with crying "slatterns!" Alexander Levin got a broken nose, Denis Levin was treated with gas, Anatoly got broken ribs. A tent of the Confederation of Free Trade Unions of Ukraine was cut with knives. The Nazis smashed a sound equipment, and stole generators" – Sergey Kiriczuk, an activist of a Marxist organization "Borot'ba" ("Struggle"), described then the attack on his comrades. He noted that the conflict was watched by a deputy from the nationalist party Svoboda, Igor Miroshnichenko. Later Denis Levin confirmed that they were invaded by "elements close to Svoboda".

    http://anarchistnews.org/content/ukraine-harsh-antifascist-confrontation-awaits-us

    The Guardian was also deceiving with regard to the government. The Nazis have all the security positions.

    Krystallnacht was in 1938.

    Alexunder, 14 March 2014 2:06am

    I think this author is oversimplifying the whole situation to the point of mockery. This whole mess is about a few things.

    1. East and west of Ukraine are not getting along, with west part Maidan movement is more aggressive ( or may be more well financed ) in getting their wishes right away. I think point of view on Bandera makes the separation line very clear. Another one is who voted for the party of Region in the last election.
    2. Disregard for the democratic principles in overthrowing Yanukovich government regardless of how corrupted he was. His government was elected by majority of Ukrainians. Maidan leaders had to wait only until December to have their wishes come true - without causalities on both sides.
    3. Disregard for Russian wishes to have NATO country on other side of the border.
    4. Oligarchs controlling both movements - former Party of Region and

    About article - constant portraying Yanukovich as a puppet of Russian government ( until he was overthrown and nowhere to go ) is really annoying me - it is certainly on par with portraying the revolt as fascists putsch by someone in Russia. Would not be shy to say that it is piece of propaganda at their best - just on the opposite side.

    inabster, 14 March 2014 2:54am
    For another unbiased news analysis on the attempts by the US to make Ukraine a NATO vassal slave state, read this unbiased serious article from Asia Times:

    The new Great (Threat) Game in Eurasia

    Everyone remembers the "good Taliban", with which the US could negotiate in Afghanistan. Then came the "good al-Qaeda", jihadis the US could support in Syria. Now come the "good neo-nazis", with which the West can do business in Kiev. Soon there will be "the good jihadis supporting neo-nazis", who may be deployed to advance US/NATO and anti-Russian designs in Crimea and beyond. After all, Obama mentor Dr Zbigniew "The Grand Chessboard" Brzezinski is the godfather of good jihadis, fully weaponized to fight the former Soviet Union in Afghanistan.

    As facts on the ground go, neo-nazis are definitely back as good guys.

    Lysander1, 14 March 2014 3:23am

    It was not neo-Nazi mainly because US paid for organising this protests initially. Suddenly Mr.Yanukovych became "pro-Moscow", only because he didn't hate Russians, although he initially wanted closer ties with Europe, but problem emerged in loosing privileged status with Russia!

    Well it is well known that US was doing businesses with Nazis well into 1943, at the time when most of Europe was occupied by Nazis... US doesn't mind dealing with pro-Nazis as long it sees it's future gains.

    It is just a matter of manufacturing their public image, and they are experts in that. Lets see how will glossing of murders by snipers in Kiev "by third party force" go. I wander what "difficulties" will emerge here.

    Khurram Khalid, 14 March 2014 3:28am

    Western propaganda has reached epic proportions during this Ukrainian crisis and this article is a perfect example of that.

    Facts are being so profoundly distorted that even the lies during the Iraq war seem minor to them.

    The Western establishments and media, in their pursuit to control Ukraine and make it an anti Russian state, are plunging it to chaos and a possible disintegration disregarding its people altogether

    cveks156, 14 March 2014 3:40am

    Picture says more than thousand words. Look this picture from Maidan protest of Neo-Nazis from Pravy Sector - strongest party in this new Ukranian "interim" government:

    http://www.visionwebhosting.net/tmp/nazi-ukraine.jpg

    Vaska Tumir, 14 March 2014 4:17am
    As everyone who has followed these events knows, the mass protests against the Yanukovych regime that began in November involved millions of people,

    As everyone who's been paying attention knows, the protests in Kiev had almost NO support outside Lvov and a couple of other towns. Most of Kiev refused to join them, too.

    As everyone who's been reading this paper regularly also knows, seeking support, the then opposition called for a general strike 3 times in 3 months -- and the rest of Ukraine just ignored them.

    ID0221014, 14 March 2014 4:46am
    From CNN

    << EU resolution contains 18 points of concern over policies embedded in laws of the Ukrainian Rada, or Parliament. A key paragraph reads that the EU "is concerned about the rising nationalistic sentiment in Ukraine." The Parliament stresses that "racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views go against the EU's fundamental values and principles."

    The resolution also appeals to pro-democratic parties in the Rada "not to associate with, endorse or form coalitions with this party."

    THIS PARTY TODAY HOLDS KEY GOVERNMENT MINISTRIES!

    Editor's note: David C. Speedie is senior fellow director for the U.S. Global Engagement Program at the Carnegie Council for Ethics in International Affairs, an educational, nonprofit, nonpartisan organization that produces lectures, publications and multimedia materials on the ethical challenges of living in a globalized world.

    (CNN) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin says neo-fascist far-right groups are firmly behind the putsch -- coup d'etat -- in Kiev and questions the democratic credentials of "men with black masks and Kalashnikovs" who became the poster children of the Maidan for Russians.

    Does this assessment have any truth to it? In the fast-moving and chronically complex course of events in Ukraine, the issue has been debated from the beginning: the role of the far right in the events that led to the toppling of the Viktor Yanukovych government and in the present and future disposition of political power in the country.
    David Speedie

    There are some known facts: First, far-right, anti-Semitic, anti-Russian and openly fascist groups have existed and do exist as a blight on modern Ukraine. A 2012 European Parliament resolution condemned the main -- but by no means most extreme -- ultra-right party, Svoboda, as "racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic."

    Antonios Symeonakis
    Adelaide

    bankstaVOID, 14 March 2014 5:01am
    'For the first time since the end of World War II, fascists and neo-nazis are at the helm of a European nation (although Ukraine most of all should be characterized as the key swing nation in Eurasia). Few in the West seem to have noticed it.

    The cast of characters include Ukrainian interim defense minister and former student at the Pentagon Ihor Tenyukh; deputy prime minister for economic affairs and Svoboda ideologue Oleksandr Sych; agro-oligarch minister of agriculture Ihor Svaika (Monsanto, after all, needs a chief enforcer); National Security Council chief and Maidan commander of Right Sector neo-nazis Andry Parubiy; and deputy National Security Council chief Dmytro Yarosh, the founder Right Sector. Not to mention Svoboda leader Oleh Tyanhybok, a close pal of John McCain and Victoria "F**k the EU" Nuland, and active proponent of an Ukraine free from the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia."'

    P. Escobar/Asia Times

    fairleft, 14 March 2014 5:01am
    This 'report' requires complete ignorance of recent history.
    1. The protests started because Yanukovych rejected a very unfavorable deal with the EU and instead took the "Hey, have $15 billion" deal with Russia.
    2. The EU tried to negotiate a compromise deal that would've kept Yanukovych in power, at least temporarily, and "F##k the EU" Victoria Nuland rejected that.
    3. The new prime minister, 'Yats', was handpicked by Nuland.
    4. The violent protesters essential to the coup were armed, well-trained and well-equipped Right-Sector and Svoboda-associated militias firing on and killing government police, and fire-bombing government buildings. When the police finally retreated, the militias barged into parliament, assaulted and chased out any Yanukovych-aligned elected representatives, and that was the coup.
    5. The coup bosses know they came to power on Right Sector and Svoboda violence, and have dutifully rewarded their leaders with important posts in the coup government, in particular in the security and military ministries.
    6. Estonian foreign minister Paet, in a leaked phone call, reported to Catherine Ashton a discussion with doctor Olga Bogomolets, who told him it looked like, from a comparison of their similar injuries, that 'new coalition' snipers had shot both police and protesters. Afterwards, Bogomolets said she had not treated police victims, but did not otherwise deny the content of the phone call. She says she is satisfied that an independent investigation of the sniping is being carried out by the coup-installed government.
    7. Oleh Tyahnybok, the leader of Svoboda, is an anti-Semite and a far-right nationalist. Because of the party's obvious far-right character, in 2012 the European Parliament urged other parties in Ukraine not to associate with Svoboda.

    hkbabylon, 14 March 2014 5:30am

    if the coup was not a coup, why on earth were the US getting involved? Why were US officials flying in and out of Kiev? What were Nato 'military advisors' doing in the Ukraine for months ? Why have old pictures of Tymoshenko's visit to American white supremacists been completely erased from the Net? I saw her doing a Nazi salute, but that picture is nowhere to be found. Somebody has been very busy cleaning her image, and the image of Svoboda. No brownie points for guessing who. Ukraine shares a border with Russia, certainly NATO interference in this country must be regarded with alarm by Moscow.

    Sure, Yanukotvich was a corrupt and ineffective leader. Let people vote him out in the next elections. Many US-friendly states are ruled by corrupt leaders. When people protest against them the US do not support opposition parties and paramilitary groups with money, training and promises.

    ID0221014, 14 March 2014 5:43am
    Svoboda ("Freedom") was founded in 1991 as the Social National Party of Ukraine. The party idolizes Stepan Bandera, whose followers fought on the side of the Nazis during World War II against the Red Army and Ukrainian communist militias. Bandera's Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) had direct support from the Germans: Hitler wanted them to police Ukraine after the Germans took it, and the OUN organized volunteer militias that actively participated in the Holocaust. "The Jews of the Soviet Union," declared the Banderists, "are the most loyal supporters of the Bolshevik Regime and the vanguard of Muscovite imperialism in the Ukraine."

    When the Germans took Lvov in the summer of 1941, the Banderists sent a message to Lvov's Jews in the form of a pamphlet which said: "We will lay your heads at Hitler's feet"! Which they did; the OUN worked with the SS to round up and slaughter 4,000 of the city's Jews. Their weapons of choice: everything from guns to metal poles.....

    "You are the ones that the Moscow-Jewish mafia ruling Ukraine fears most."..

    For the first time since 1933, the followers of a movement that valorizes Adolf Hitler and preaches anti-Semitism has entered a European government.

    FASCISTS IN UKRAINE GOVERNMENT!

    Macabre2011, 14 March 2014 6:14am
    wow, USA is Ukraine's new best friend, See how strategically this is playing out. CIA are very good at their jobs right now, I wouldn't doubt, some are getting awards for their work in Eastern Europe. The Cold war was the term given to the military stand-off, and world has taken a few turns since. But the two adversaries remain, and Russia sees the destabilisation of their neighbour as reason to intervene. I think they have a point. In fact when the exceptionally super-powerful Grenada, dangerously democratically elected a new president, didn't the Heroic little USA invade to fight the good fight for freedom (from the evils of a peaceful democracy)?
    exiledoffmainstreet, 14 March 2014 6:48am
    Is it a grassroots uprising or an astroturf rebellion paid by yankee stipends? Was it coincidental that the one the yankees wanted ended up as premier of the post-putsch regime? How can you explain that even the Estonian Foreign Minister, Mr. Paet had discovered that the shootings at the square were done by snipers paid by the same resistance element? The writer is also cherry-picking in his discussion of elements accused in the past of being fascists. On earlier occasions even European Union types made such accusations. In any event, why would people acting in the real interests of the Ukrainians install a government cut their pensions in half unless there were other ulterior motives? Yankee fingerprints are all over this.
    merlin2, 14 March 2014 7:05am
    This article is a whitewash of a coup, one funded (to the tune of $5B), supported (with training and whatever else), and urged on by the Nuland F***k Europe, a neocon instigator, the wife of kagan, one of the chief Iraq atrocity (neartly 1M murdered and the country destroyed).

    harding attempts to make the riot leaders into almost lovable, not-really fascist (we love israel!) standard issue freedom loving citizens reluctantly turned revolutionaries. Not a word about the fact that the Right sector and Svoboda plus those even further on the right used extremely violent means to bring down a democratically elected government. Not a word about the by-now obvious fact that the snipers were not from Yanukovich's government. Not a word about the extreme anti-Russian attitude os some of these cuddly revolutionaries (cf. "heros"). Not a word about the money that was distributed to keep people on the streets ready to scuttle any agreement made by the Europeans (but not supported by the regime-change artists, cf, that Nuland creatures). Why, they are almost ike that other famous liberty-seeking entity, the "Free" Syrian Army, ever so valiantly fighting on side-by-side with the fervent al-Qaeda colleagues, working hard to lend "legitimacy" to another western engineered attempt at a regime change.

    Of course the neo-fascists will temper their anti-semitic pronouncements - after all like Le Pen and a host of other neo-fascist extreme right movements in Europe, Israel is a fellow ultra-nationalist country, its jewishness entirely secondary. Alliances were made between forces far less similar in the past. Besides, that's the beauty of neo-fascism - it can shift the list of its enemies at a blink of an eye. Today it may be Russians, or Muslims, or "leftists". Tomorrow it can be anyone who dares resist extreme nationalism. See - the ethno part of nationalism is flexibly defined, like a fungible commodity.

    The sad thing is the picture of Kerry shaking hands with the puppet "government" leaders installed by his neocon "liberty peddlers". It is truly pathetic. One of the Ukranian guys looks almost embarrassed (may be has shreds of conscience? just because they are oligarchs doesn't mean they are entirely without redeeming values. Yats may even like puppies, for all I know).

    But Kerry - he just looks smug. why wouldn't he be - the powers-that-Be are no doubt quite pleased with his performance and that of the Nuland-kagan F***K everyone axis. I expect they will all be handsomely rewarded (not that they are not wallowing in dough already).

    peterDKK, 14 March 2014 7:15am
    How interesting, The Guardian (and the Western press as a whole) is so mum on last night's UN Security Council meeting. The Russians presented quite a bunch of evidence that it was 'pro-democracy' snipers that shot their own in Kiev in late February. No mention of that meeting, Yatsenyuk's UN debut, by the way.

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