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Israeli attempts to weaken and partition Syria:
support of headchoppers and air raids on Syria military infrastructure

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From Israel Exploiting the Syrian Crisis to Annex the Golan

Generally Isral serves  are aproxy for Washinton in syria conflict and the USA goal are to partition Syria into several zones such  as Kurdish and Sunni zones to compensate for Iraq falling under Iran influence after Bush administration Iraq invasion.  UE is impotant  and the only contrvaling force here proved to be Russia.

The Israeli cabinet held its weekly meeting on April 27, 2016 in the occupied Syrian Golan Heights, the first such occasion since the Golan was occupied 49 years ago. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu opened the meeting by saying that the Golan Heights would remain Israel’s “forever” and that Israel would not withdraw under any circumstances. What made the Israeli government hold this provocative meeting in the Golan? And what message did Netanyahu wish to convey?

“A Golden Opportunity in the Golan”

The Israeli Knesset passed a law annexing the occupied Syrian Golan on December 14, 1981, at the instigation of the Menachem Begin government. This annexation provoked strong Arab and international opposition, and no state or international body has recognized it. Despite the annexation, successive Israeli governments have held talks, public and secret, direct and indirect, with Damascus regarding Israeli withdrawal from the Golan and its return to Syria, in exchange for the signing of a comprehensive peace treaty and normalization of relations. These talks have failed on every occasion because of Israeli intransigence and its refusal to withdraw to the borders of June 4, 1967.

In November 2010, the Knesset approved an initiative of the Netanyahu government for a Referendum Law that significantly impedes any attempts to withdraw from territories under Israeli sovereignty—meaning the Golan and occupied East Jerusalem (the latter also formally annexed). The law, which requires that any Israeli withdrawal from an area under its sovereignty must receive a majority of votes in a referendum, passed with the support of 61 out of a total of 120 Members of Knesset.

With the outbreak of the Syrian revolution in 2011, and the decision by the Assad regime to turn it into a civil war, Israel has adopted a stance that seeks a prolonged war which weakens Syria to the maximum possible extent. Since 2014, and particularly after the emergence of ISIL, the Israeli leadership and its theorists have promoted the idea that the old Syria has gone, and that there is no longer any chance of bringing it back; its fragmentation along sectarian, ethnic, and regional lines has become the de facto reality.[1] Insiders in the Israeli military and security establishments have openly called on their government to exploit the ongoing conflict in Syria. This would mean pressing for an international solution which would partition Syria as well as recognizing the Israeli occupation, and eventual annexation, of the Golan Heights.[2]

There are indications that Israel has encouraged other states to support the division of Syria as part of a regional carve up of the latter’s territory. Zvi Hauser, a Netanyahu confidante and Cabinet Secretary from 2009-2013, wrote an article entitled “A historic opportunity in the Golan,” urging Israel to take advantage of the new circumstances brought about by the war in Syria, the collapse of the Syrian state, and the changes in the Middle East, by obtaining international recognition of the annexation of the Golan. Hauser argued that Israel, which had been unable to stop the major powers from reaching “a bad agreement” with Iran on the nuclear issue, should make an effort to obtain suitable strategic compensation from the US. He recommended that this American compensation not be limited to providing new high-tech weapons to Israel, but include US recognition of the need for the Syrian Golan to remain under Israeli sovereignty in the form of a presidential commitment from the White House and a law in Congress. Hauser mentioned that the occupied Syrian Golan, unlike the Occupied Palestinian Territories, did not represent a demographic problem for Israel, because there were only 24,000 Syrian inhabitants as compared with 21,000 Jewish settlers.[3] This reflects the fact that most of the original inhabitants of the Golan, who had numbered 130,000 during the 1967 Six Day War had previously been driven out by the Israelis, with most of the newly created refugees settling in Damascus neighborhoods such as Jdeidat Artouz and Al Hajar Al Aswad, to the south of the capital. Now numbering an estimated 600,000, these refugees and their descendants were some of the first Syrians to rebel against in early 2011, eventually leading to their second displacement, but this time at the hands of a supposed “Resistance Axis”, Arab regime.

At his meeting with US President Barack Obama on November 9, 2015, Netanyahu sought to explore the American view of Israel’s annexation of the Golan Heights in light of developments in the war in Syria. According to Israeli sources, Netanyahu briefly raised the issue with Obama during their discussions, with the Israeli premier stating that he had grave doubts about the possibility of reunifying Syria, thus making it necessary to think differently about the future of the Golan. Obama made no reply to Netanyahu’s comments on the Golan.[4]

Attempt to further partition Syria

From Why the Idea of Cracking Syria into Pieces Would Be America's Latest Imperial Disaster  by  Vijay Prashad / AlterNet April 11, 2017,

Deeply battered by the civil war, with half its population displaced and over half a million dead, Syria is weakened to the point of virtual collapse. The fall of the government of Bashar al-Assad in Damascus would not be – as many of these intellectuals of the American Empire agree – the best possible outcome. ‘Realistically,’ as Michael O’Hanlon of the Brookings Institute put it in 2015, ‘the replacement of Assad’ does not ‘appear within reach’ given the lack of palatable alternatives. Moderate forces – as far as the US determines – are simply not available. Therefore, the ouster of Assad in a precipitous way is considered foolhardy.

Instead of removing Assad, then, the United States should – argues O’Hanlon – push for the establishment of ‘one or two safe zones in relatively promising locations,’ backed by ‘perhaps 1,000 American military personnel.’ In these ‘safe zones, local forces – moderates, it is hoped – could be trained to put pressure on Assad’s government. ‘Ultimately, and ideally,’ O’Hanlon argues, ‘some of the safe zones might merge together as key elements in a future con-federal arrangement.’ This dynamic could very well lead to the ‘outright partition of the country if necessary.’ The partition is envisaged along the lines of sect and ethnicity – a Sunni zone, an Alawite zone, and a Kurdish zone. O’Hanlon calls this ‘deconstructing Syria.’

In a recent column, New York Times’ Thomas Friedman muses over the possible futures for Syria. ‘The least bad solution is a partition of Syria,’ Friedman suggests, ‘and the creation of a primarily Sunni protected area – protected by an international force, including, if necessary, some US troops.’ The gap between O’Hanlon and Friedman is merely in that the former recognizes that in the large mixed cities of Damascus and Aleppo, Hama and Homs, a partition would not be easy. ‘Prudence would have to be the watchword,’ writes O’Hanlon.

Neither O’Hanlon nor Friedman – both influential voices in Washington, DC – seem bothered by their imperial gestures. They are quite happy to speak for Syrians, to offer tutelage to Syria which cannot seem to define its own destiny. These are men who will speak of democracy and human rights when it suits them, but then transform just as easily into imperial bureaucrats with their crayons ready to draw lines on someone else’s map.

The influence of these men can be felt quite palpably in the corridors of power. Late last year, CIA Director John Brennan said quite casually, ‘I don’t know whether or not Syria and Iraq can be put back together again. There’s been so much bloodletting, so much destruction, so many continued, seething tensions and sectarian divisions.’ The outcome of this, he suggested, is the partition of Syria. Former US Ambassador to Syria Robert Ford has said that there is already an ‘emerging partition’ of Syria into six zones leading to the ‘Somalization of Syria.’ Amos Gilad, the Strategic Advisor to the Israeli Defense Ministry and well-regarded in US intelligence circles, said, ‘Syria has reached its end.’ They – quite cavalierly – call for the dismemberment of the country.

Last month, before the US strikes on a government airfield, US Secretary of State Rex Tillerson suggested that once ISIS is removed from the northern Syrian city of Raqqa, it would be ‘governed by local forces’ with US backing. What is being considered is that the US would create – in northern Syria – an analogous development to the Kurdistan Regional Government, which is autonomous of the Iraqi government. This statement was made in Turkey, where there is fear of a Syrian Kurdish state on its border. Turkey is not bothered by the break-up of Syria. What it fears is the concrete reality that this fracturing shall produce a Syrian Kurdish autonomous region with US support long the length of its southern border. Even here Turkish sentiments are over-read. Last November, US General Joseph Dunford and Turkish General Hulusi Akar agreed that ‘the coalition and Turkey will work together on the long-term plan for seizing, holding and governing Raqqa.’ This means that the US and the Turks would adopt this region, with the Turks eager to make the Kurds marginal to their occupied zone.

In sum, all the major players who speak the syrupy language of democracy are quite willing to undemocratically plan for the dismemberment of Syria.

Weaken Syria To Weaken Iran

Iran, since 1979, has confounded the West and its West Asian allies – Israel and Saudi Arabia. The point for these powers has been to find a mechanism to weaken Iran. Saudi Arabia and the West backed Iraq’s long war against Iran precisely to hem in the Islamic Republic.

In 1979, right after Iran’s Revolution, US embassy official Talcott Seelye wrote from Damascus that his government should exaggerate the Alawite hold on the Syrian state so as to break the legitimacy of Hafez al-Assad, the father of the current president. It was important to get rid of Assad, Seelye wrote, to dent Iran’s role in the region. ‘We are inclined to the view that his days are numbered,’ Seelye wrote, even if by ‘the assassination of Assad.’ Although there is not really an Alawite control over the government, Seelye noted, ‘perception is more important than reality.’

During the Iran-Iraq war (1980-88), the United States wished to hit Syria as a way to weaken Iran. In a revealing cable from 1983, CIA chief Graham Fuller urged his paymasters to bring ‘real muscle to bear against Syria.’ Fuller suggested that ‘the US should consider sharply escalating military threats against Syria from three border states hostile to Syria: Iraq, Israel and Turkey.’ He hoped that if these countries simultaneously attacked Syria, it would weaken its position and its prestige. If Syria’s position was dented, Fuller argued, Iran would be forced ‘to reconsider bringing the war to an end.’ What is important is that the regional countries – such as Iraq – ‘still need to remain on guard against Iranian influence and power throughout the Gulf.’ Hitting Syria would weaken Iran. That was the posture in 1983 as it was in 1979 and as it is today.

Twenty years later, in 2006, the US political officer in Damascus, William Roebuck, wrote that his country should join with Saudi Arabian intelligence to stoke fears of sectarianism in the country. Their stick would be to suggest to the Sunni community that Iran was promoting a Shiite agenda in Syria. Roebuck’s cable reveals the continuation of fear mongering around Iran to increase sectarian feeling to weaken Syrian society and the state. ‘There are fears in Syria,’ Roebuck wrote, ‘that the Iranians are active in both Shia proselytizing and conversion of, mostly poor, Sunnis.’ What is startling is that Roebuck then conceded that this is ‘often exaggerated.’ The Americans, Roebuck said, against all evidence, should join with the Saudis to ‘better publicize and focus regional attention to this issue.’

The evidence actually showed that Saudi preachers had entered Syria in large numbers and they had established themselves in the slums. It was in these mosques that they preached virulently sectarian rhetoric and prepared society for the outbreak of sectarian violence. This is precisely what overran Syria in 2011. Roebuck advised his paymasters to encourage splits in the military, advised the Gulf Arabs to stop investing in Syria and encouraged any mischief that would deprive the regime of any support. In other words, Roebuck insisted on preparing the terrain for regime change which would harm – as US intelligence openly said a decade ago – both the Lebanese political-military group Hezbollah and Iran.

Two years ago, the US State Department noted in a memorandum, ‘The best way to help Israel deal with Iran’s growing nuclear capability is to help the people of Syria overthrow the regime of Bashar Assad.’ Fear of Iran saturates this document. The basic argument is that Iran has its grip on West Asia through Syria and into Hezbollah. These have to be brought to heel. If Assad’s government falls, then Iran’s conduit to Hezbollah would break. It was – therefore – essential to overthrow Assad. This has nothing to do with the Syrian people or their needs, but everything to do with the Washington and Tel Aviv’s hallucinations about Iranian power. The fall of Assad, the US diplomats calculated, would mean that ‘Iran would no longer have a foothold in the Middle East from which to threaten Israel and undermine stability in the region.’

If Assad falls and a new – perhaps radical Islamist – regime comes to power in Damascus, how would this help Israel? A US intelligence official told me this week that the word of this period is ‘Yugoslavia.’ The break-up of Yugoslavia, he said, left behind minor states with no regional power. Balkanization, he said with a smile, would be the appropriate solution for Syria. Break it up and Iran would lose its foothold and no powerful state would remain on Israel’s border to pose a threat. Israel could permanently claim the Golan Heights, a US-backed state would emerge on the Syrian border, Jordan could help itself to the totality of the Hawran plateau, an Alawite state would take the coastal plain, leaving a series of Sunni states from the al-Ghab valley to the Hamad desert. A weak Syria would be easy to dominate.

Mischief surrounds Syria. Partition is seen as a way to destroy that state and offer Israel relief on its borders with Syria and Lebanon. The rights and ambitions of the Syrian people are irrelevant to these plots and schemes.


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[Jan 15, 2021] It's so crazy how Israel's constant airstrikes on Syria are just background noise that hardly anyone is aware of. Imagine a country in western Europe routinely bombing its neighbor and killing large numbers of people and the public being generally unaware that it's happening because the press barely reports it

Jan 15, 2021 | www.moonofalabama.org

michaelj72 , Jan 15 2021 3:51 utc | 66


Caitlan makes a point:
https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2021/01/14/its-spelled-dead-asshole-not-philanthropist-notes-from-the-edge-of-the-narrative-matrix/

"...It's so crazy how Israel's constant airstrikes on Syria are just background noise that hardly anyone is aware of. Imagine a country in western Europe routinely bombing its neighbor and killing large numbers of people and the public being generally unaware that it's happening because the press barely reports it..."

the link in her paragraph above,
https://news.antiwar.com/2021/01/13/us-assisted-israeli-attacks-in-east-syria-kill-at-least-57/

with this added paragraph and link in the antiwar.com article

"....US officials are pointing to their own involvement with this, saying Mike Pompeo provided the intelligence to Mossad. They suggested the intelligence was about Iranian arms. It's not clear why so many troops were killed if warehouses were the target..."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-official-israel-carried-out-syria-strikes-using-american-intelligence/

Surely the war against Syria has to rank as one of the greatest wars crimes of the last 50-60 years or more.... But not a liberal in sight. hah.

Oh I almost forgot that this great crime, along with the complete destruction and destitution of the richest nation in all of Africa, Libya, was all started under Obama-Biden-Clinton-Rice-Power administration. double hah.

[Feb 10, 2020] How Low Can Israelis Go - Sputnik International

Feb 10, 2020 | sputniknews.com

How Low Can Israelis Go? © Sputnik / MArina Lystseva Columnists 11:52 GMT 08.02.2020 Get short URL by Finian Cunningham 17 105 3 Subscribe https://cdn1.img.sputniknews.com/images/107568/96/1075689687.jpg Sputnik International https://cdn2.img.sputniknews.com/i/logo.png Finian Cunningham. Sputnik International https://sputniknews.com/columnists/202002081078260458-how-low-can-israelis-go/ Not only is Israel bombing neighboring Syria in acts of aggression, the Israeli air force is compounding its criminality by using civilian airliners as cover for their assaults. That's the assessment from Russia's Ministry of Defense which says flight data shows that an air raid by four Israeli F-16 warplanes this week near Damascus deliberately put in danger a civilian airliner with 172 passengers onboard.

Russian MOD spokesman Maj. Gen. Igor Konashenkov said the Israeli jets effectively hid behind the radar signal of an Airbus A-320 as it approached Damascus international airport in order to launch airstrikes on targets near the Syrian capital.

It was only due to the skill of the Syrian air defense operators that the passenger plane was correctly identified and escorted out of the firing line. The aircraft was diverted to a safe landing at the Russian air base at Hmeymim further north at Latakia.

Israel has a cynical policy of neither confirming or denying its forces are conducting offensive operations. So, its side of the story remains ambiguous. However, Israeli commanders have admitted previously to carrying out hundreds of airstrikes on Syrian territory over the past two years.

Russian military spokesman Konashenkov said what happened this week was a "typical" ploy used during recent Israeli air raid maneuvers. He said the Israeli air force was knowingly putting civilians in danger as a "shield" for their offensive operation.

The implications are appalling. Not only is Israel violating international law and Syrian sovereignty by carrying out acts of aggression with airstrikes, the Jewish state is also using civilian aircraft as de facto hostages in mid-air. It appears that the nefarious calculation at work by the Israelis is that they are betting the Syrian air defense systems will refrain from taking defensive action so as to avoid civilian casualties. The Israelis are thus able to freely launch their illegal airstrikes while using human shields in the air.

This is by no means the first time the Israelis have used such a dastardly ploy. Russia claims that in the recent past other civilian airliners have been similarly exploited by Israeli warplanes to enable strikes on Syria.

Also, in September 2018, Moscow accused Israel of deliberately putting a Russian reconnaissance plane in danger which led to the death of 15 crew. On that occasion, Israeli F-16s are believed to have knowingly flown behind the radar signal of an IL-20 aircraft as it approached Hmeymim air base and then fired off missiles at Syrian territory. Syrian air defenses mistook the IL-20 for an enemy target and shot down the recon plane with tragic results.

Israel denied on that occasion that it was using the Russian spy plane as a decoy. The Israelis sought to blame the Syrians for incompetent defense operations. Moscow, however, was having none of the Israeli excuses and condemned Tel Aviv for sacrificing Russian lives. Russia then responded by upgrading allied Syrian air defenses with the S-300 system .

Perhaps that S-300 upgrade was a factor in why the civilian airliner escaped this week from accidental shoot-down by Syrian air defense.

In any case, what needs to be called out is the absolute disgraceful behavior of Israel. It has no right to launch airstrikes on Syria in the first place. Countless such attacks have occurred over recent years. Israeli claims about hitting "Iranian targets" within Syria are null and void and indefensible under international law. Israeli strikes are acts of aggression, plain and simple.

As if that it is not bad enough, now we see Israel using civilian airliners in a cowardly and wicked way as a form of protection so that its warplanes can commit their crimes of aggression.

If any other state were to do this, the Western media would be heaping endless vilification upon it. Any other state would be globally condemned as a rogue, terrorist pariah. The United Nations would be inundated with resolutions to impose severe sanctions.

The double standards with which, say Iran, is treated is dumbfounding.

Another astounding hypocrisy is the way Syria is sanctioned left, right and center by the European Union. The war-torn Arab country is unable to import vital medicines because of EU sanctions . Yet the EU does nothing to reprimand Israel for brazen violations of international law.

The question of "how low can you go?" does not just apply to Israel, but also to the Western news media and Israel's international political supporters, chiefly the American government.

Russia might also rethink its position vis-a-vis Israel the next time Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu wants a reception in Moscow.

Until Israel begins to abide by international law, it should be treated with a cold shoulder. The despicable event this week of endangering a civilian airliner should be seen as the last straw for indulging Israel as if it is a normal state.

[Oct 25, 2019] The UN General Assembly actually affirmed that Israel's continued occupation of the Golan Heights is 'a violation of international law'

Oct 25, 2019 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

Northern Star November 26, 2018 at 1:48 am

Occupied but not forgotten
https://syria360.wordpress.com/2018/11/16/un-general-assembly-votes-overwhelmingly-in-favor-of-resolution-affirming-syrias-sovereignty-over-occupied-golan/
If Syria can consolidate her sovereign status and territorial integrity she may well be able take back the Golan heights from Israel.

Like Like

cartman November 26, 2018 at 3:40 am
Where Cheney, Murdoch, and the Rothschilds purchased oil concessions.

Like Like

Mark Chapman November 26, 2018 at 10:23 am
Gosh! The UN General Assembly actually affirmed that Israel's continued occupation of the Golan Heights is 'a violation of international law'!! But the USA voted against the resolution. Does that mean the USA supports violations of international law, or that it believes it has the right to decide what does or does not constitute violations thereof? My vote is with option B. As others have pointed out, the USA loves to throw the weight of 'international law' about, often when there is no such backing and even more often without getting any more specific than just 'international law'. The supposed annexation of Crimea is a natural example – the USA and Ukraine monotonously refer to the transfer of Crimea to the Russian Federation as such a violation, but do not specify what law was violated, instead bleating about the Budapest Memorandum. The latter is not international law, and more importantly, it assumed that conditions which prevailed at the time of signing would endure; no provision was made for a bloody coup right next door, and nobody would be fool enough to sign such an agreement as unconditional. Not to blame it all on the USA and Ukraine, either – the USA's retinue of lickspittles who depend on it for trade and economic reasons are happy to parrot it as a 'violation of international law'. That only shows you how easily an action the west routinely lauds as the very essence of democratic principles – a declaration of independence supported by a huge majority of the inhabitants – can be made to seem 'a violation of international law': simply refuse to recognize the decision as the will of the people, and characterize it as a forced decision made under duress. Because America says the Crimean referendum was not legal or proper, Crimea should have been forced against its will to remain a possession of Ukraine – the very and complete polar opposite of the USA's customary prancing and whooping about 'freedom'.
Mark Chapman November 26, 2018 at 8:30 am
I wouldn't want to be a Russian in Ukraine now, though. Hysteria will be high, and the nationalists will be looking for an outlet for their frustration and hate.
Cortes November 26, 2018 at 2:37 pm
Protests about the lack of heating and hikes in utility prices are going to be kiboshed by the decree.
Northern Star November 26, 2018 at 10:44 am
Since a nation's territorial Waters extend 12 miles beyond its coast, doesn't that put the entirety of the Ketch strait in Russian territorial waters ??
BTW What happens where the 12 mile extensions of two nations overlap???

Like Like

Moscow Exile November 26, 2018 at 11:30 am
In such cases there is usually some sort of convention, as there is as regards the 20.7 mile wide Straits of Dover.

This matter was brought up in Moon of Alabama :

The usual anti-Russian subject in "western" political circles use the incident to demand more measures against Russia. Fronting the effort is the weapon industry lobbying group Atlantic Council:

Anders Åslund, a resident senior fellow in the Atlantic Council's Eurasia Center, said: "NATO and the United States should send in naval ships in the Sea of Azov to guarantee that it stays open to international shipping."

Such action, Åslund said, "would be in full compliance with the UN Law of the Sea Convention of 1982 and the Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits of 1936."

Anders Aslund is listed as member of the "U.S. & Canadian Cluster" of the secret influence operation by the British Foreign Office describe here two days ago. He is obviously unable to read a map, sea chart, or UN convention. The Ukrainian attempt to pass through the Kerch Strait without Russian consent is a breach of Article 7, 19 and 21 of the UN Law of the Sea Convention (pdf):

Article 7: "Subject to this Convention, ships of all States, whether coastal or land-locked, enjoy the right of innocent passage through the territorial sea."

Article 19-1: "Passage is innocent so long as it is not prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal State. Such passage shall take place in conformity with this Convention and with other rules of international law."

Article 21-4: "Foreign ships exercising the right of innocent passage through the territorial sea shall comply with all such [coastal state] laws and regulations and all generally accepted international regulations relating to the prevention of collisions at sea."

There will now be again a lot of noise in the media about the 'nefarious Russians' and new demands for even more useless sanctions. But the legal case is clear. It was the Ukrainian navy that willfully attempted to pass from the Black Sea into the Sea of Azov through Russian territorial waters without regard to the laws and regulations of the coastal state. Russia was within its full rights to prevent the passage and to seize the Ukrainian boats.

Mark Chapman November 26, 2018 at 12:40 pm
Dear God; Anders Aslund. Now he's an expert in maritime law. Might as well, I guess; he's a chrome-plated clusterfuck as an economist – good on you, Anders, to make a career change so late in life.

Anders Aslund is a wooden-head whose sole useful function is to give the veneer of academia to agit-prop.

Jen November 26, 2018 at 8:32 pm
The Atlantic Council seems to attract many people who have quite sudden and dramatic mid-life career changes, for example that former women's lingerie salesman turned investigative journalist Eliot Higgins.

[Sep 15, 2019] Israeli Attacks On Syria Halted After Russia Threatened To Shoot Down Jets

Sep 15, 2019 | www.zerohedge.com

According to reports in both Israeli and Arabic regional media, Israel this past week was preparing to expand major airstrikes against "Iran-backed" targets in Syria, but Moscow imposed its red line. The Independent has published a story describing that Russia's military in Syria threatened to shoot down any invading Israeli warplanes using fighter jets or their S-400 system .

The Jerusalem Post , citing sources in the UK Independent (Arabia) , writes just after the latest meeting in Sochi between Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Russian President Vladimir Putin:

According to the report, Moscow has prevented three Israeli airstrikes on three Syrian outposts recently, and even threatened that any jets attempting such a thing would be shot down, either by Russian jets or by the S400 Anti-aircraft missiles . The source cited in the report claims a similar situation has happened twice, and that during August, Moscow stopped an airstrike on a Syrian outpost in Qasioun, where a S300 missile battery is placed.

Netanyahu's hasty trip to meet with Putin on Thursday - even in the final days before Tuesday's key election - was reportedly with a goal to press the Russian president on essentially ignoring Israel's attacks in Syria.

Image via The Jerusalem Post

Citing further sources in the British-Arabic Independent Arabia , The Jerusalem Post continues :

According to the Russian source, Putin let Netanyahu know that his country will not allow any damage to be done to the Syrian regime's army, or any of the weapons being given to it...

Israel sources cited by the Arabic newspaper described Netanyahu's attempts to persuade Putin as "a failure" . This in spite of Netanyahu telling reporters after the meeting that his relations with Moscow were stronger than ever.

Moscow is said to be particularly resistant given the Israeli military's recent spate of attacks on targets in Lebanon, Iraq, and Syria.

me title=

Sources in the report claimed further that Putin in a somewhat unprecedented moment raised the issue of Lebanon :

The Russian source said: "Putin has expressed his dissatisfaction from Israel's latest actions in Lebanon" and even emphasized to Netanyahu that he "Rejects the aggression towards Lebanon's sovereignty" something which has never been heard from him. Putin further stated that someone is cheating him in regards to Syria and Lebanon and that he will not let it go without a response. According to him, Netanyahu was warned not to strike such targets in the future.

It could also be simply that Putin understands that Netanyahu, now desperate to extend his political career to a record fifth term as prime minister as next week's elections loom, could be ready to risk a major and very unnecessary Middle East conflagration in order to continue to appeal to Israeli right wing and nationalist voters.


shortingurass , 24 minutes ago link

Say what you want about Putin, this guy has balls. I wish we had a leader like him. it's been way too long we're being governed by weak zio puppets pussies.

naro , 22 minutes ago link

Putin is a good man and loves the Judean people.

naro , 19 minutes ago link

SUPPORT FROM PUTIN IN SOCHI

Netanyahu traveled to the Black Sea resort to meet the Russian leader – just five days before the election – in a move widely seen as an effort to woo elder Russian-speaking immigrants.

Noob678 , 40 minutes ago link

US, Israel talk about mutual defense treaty – Trump - Trump is anti-establishment ZOG-Rothschild lol

The US and Israel are discussing a mutual defense treaty that would further cement the already "tremendous" alliance between the two countries, President Donald Trump has revealed.

"I had a call today with Prime Minister Netanyahu to discuss the possibility of moving forward with a Mutual Defense Treaty, between the United States and Israel, that would further anchor the tremendous alliance between our two countries," Trump tweeted.

Wahooo , 37 minutes ago link

OrangeZioPedo at his finest. MIGA!

Brazen Heist II , 36 minutes ago link

The US has become a bad Jewish comedy sketch and kvetch.

petroglyph , 5 minutes ago link

And just two days ago, Israel was caught again places spy devices in Wash. But today the POTUS is going to sign on for sacrificing what's left of our sovereignty to Israel so they can go around MENA pounding their chest and threatening everyone. https://www.israellobbyus.org/transcripts/1.1Grant_Smith.htm

ADB , 45 minutes ago link

Einstein101: "Well, so far the Joos are those who are throwing the punches ..."

Only because you can run to America the moment anyone fights back. Until now.

How does it feel to have the whole Oded Yinon/ Greater Israel project crumbling before your eyes?

I am Groot , 49 minutes ago link

I hope Putin gives Iran one of those Tsar Bomba's to drop on Israel. Or one of those Satan 2's that can wipe out an area the size of Texas.

Et Tu Brute , 46 minutes ago link

Not sure option 2 would be such good idea, with Damascus being only a few kms from the Israeli border and all...

Airstrip1 , 1 hour ago link

Interesting body language/facials -- Nutty still with the smirk, but VVP and background say a grave/serious word has gone out ... similar as the Izzies bend to listen very carefully to the erect and confident-looking Russkies ...

********'s over, Bibi, where it goes from here depends on your nasty little country ... maybe others in your region looking for 70-odd years payback for your murders terrorism land-confiscation cruelty against those weaker than your miserable selves.

Einstein101 , 53 minutes ago link

********'s over, Bibi, where it goes from here depends on your nasty little country

Not so fast, Israel will try not to step on Putin's tows but it can't afford the Iranians to build that ring of missiles around Israel. It's not that Israel does not have leverage too, it can make things complicated for Putin, like one small bomb on Assad's resident in Damascus.

Airstrip1 , 22 minutes ago link

... one small bomb on Assad's resident in Damascus.

You can certainly shoot out the ******** yourself, Einstein.

Surely you must be aware that your namesake condemned the founding of Israel in 1948, which has turned out to be the all-round disaster he predicted. Not alone, many Jewish voices round the world continue to condemn it. How inconvenient for you and your bombs on Assad's house ... lol ...

Airstrip1 , 7 minutes ago link

"I am in favor of Palestine being developed as a Jewish Homeland but not as a separate State. It seems to me a matter for simple common sense that we cannot ask to be given the political rule over Palestine where two thirds of the population are not Jewish. What we can and should ask is a secured bi-national status in Palestine with free immigration. If we ask more we are damaging our own cause and it is difficult for me to grasp that our Zionists are taking such an intransigent position which can only impair our cause," Einstein said in a letter in 1946, according to the Shapell Manuscript Foundation.


Read Newsmax: Israel: 5 Albert Einstein Quotes About Zionism | Newsmax.com

ThomasEdmonds , 1 hour ago link

In as delicate and diplomatic phrasing as I can attempt, Netanyahu needs to go.

[Sep 10, 2019] Isreal role in Syria

Sep 10, 2019 | www.unz.com

Dr. E. Black says: September 10, 2019 at 4:29 am GMT

We are Democratic

Reply Agree/Disagree/Etc. This Commenter

[Jan 23, 2019] Does this means escalation ? the Syrian government threatened to strike Ben Grunion Airport if Israel violates its territory again.

Jan 23, 2019 | www.moonofalabama.org

metni , Jan 22, 2019 11:13:20 PM | link

@41

'RT and the Jerusalem Post report that the Syrian government threatened to strike Ben Grunion Airport if Israel violates its territory again. They also reiterated their moral and sovereign right to maintain the Golan Heights and stop their annexation. Not sure where this is headed but it looks rash and risky with all of the media pro-Israel and biased...'

Inveterate media bias cannot be an excuse for Syria to withhold from exercising legitimate sovereign right to defend Syrian territory from unrelenting attacks especially those targeting its international airport in Damascus and elsewhere. Media fealty to Israel is not about to undergo an epiphany but Jaffari's warning is overdue and consistent with the policy of engagement articulated in the E Magnier article I cited in a previous post.[ https://ejmagnier.com/2018/12/14/new-rules-of-engagement-between-syria-and-israel-as-russia-changes-its-position/]. No mater what Syria does or does not do will always to filtered through the MSM Israeli prism. IMO, Syria is long overdue in delivering on its warnings.

It is rather significant that this is the first known statement by Syrian UN Representative Dr Jafaari as reported by RT [ https://www.rt.com/news/449463-syria-threatens-israel-airport/] which contains an explicit warning of military action in response to the latest Israeli attack. I have met Dr Bashar on three separate occasions and recall that in 2015 he confided to a small group of people at a social gathering that Qatari diplomats had offered him 3 million if he would split with Damascus. I found in him an honorable man of dignity and principle.

Framing his statement and warning as reckless or 'rash' ignores the interminable punishment and humiliation Syria has suffered following years of incurring hundreds of Israeli acts of aggression. Since the October War Syria fought to recapture the Golan Heights in 1973, it has not fired a single shot across the armistice lines. Israel obviously interprets restraint as weakness. Zionist military superiority does not translate to invincibility and if the conniving bully is not confronted in a manner which causes a condign level of retribution, the cumulative damage and casualties he inflicts will only rise.

[Dec 27, 2018] Israeli attack has of a lot in common with the IL-20 atrocity - namely that the Israelis may have been deliberately hiding behind two civilian passenger jets to launch their attack

Was it the last "hello" to Putin form Netanyahu?
Notable quotes:
"... The Israelis lost big time from their IL-20 misadventure, but those losses will seem like childs play compared to their geostrategic losses from a repeat performance - that is if my interpretation is correct. ..."
Dec 27, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org
BM , Dec 26, 2018 11:26:03 AM | link
It appears to be too early to say much about the latest Israeli attack, until more details are released, but my inkling is of a lot in common with the IL-20 atrocity - namely that the Israelis may have been deliberately hiding behind two civilian passenger jets to launch their attack. If that is the case the Israelis can expect to be a gigantic loser.

From what I can gather it appears that 14 of the 16 the guided bombs were shot down using Pantsir S1 and/or S200. If that is the case then it is not true to say that the S300 was not used, because the S300 is an integrated system which automatically chooses the most appropriate means of response including S200/S125 etc and also including (as I understand) the Pantsir. In the case of the S200 at least, the missiles will be guided to their targets by the S300 radars and S300 control system.

The big question is the role of the two passenger jets and why their presence impeded action against the Israeli F16's. That is where the parallels with the IL-20 come in. The Russians are going to analyse this carefully and precisely before publishing conclöusions - after that we can expect harsh action - certainly geostrategic and maybe also kinetic.

The Israelis lost big time from their IL-20 misadventure, but those losses will seem like childs play compared to their geostrategic losses from a repeat performance - that is if my interpretation is correct.

By the way, I wouldn't take either Korybko or Cartalucci too seriously, both seem to me to be pro-empire misinformation artists - or at the very least highly untrustworthy sources.


BM , Dec 26, 2018 11:39:27 AM | link

Attacking Israeli aircraft over Lebanon? A no-go at the current state of affairs, as it would most likely trigger an escalation neither Russia, Syria, Hezbollah and Iran want, at least for the time being.
Posted by: Hmpf | Dec 26, 2018 11:08:26 AM | 26

This is precisely where the consequences of the Israeli timing my come in. If they deliberately timed their offence with the landing of passenger jets in Beirut and Damascus, thereby putting those jets at risk, Russia may be able to persuade Lebanon to allow them to impose a total no-fly zone over Lebanon for all Israeli military aircraft and projectiles. Check mate.

BM , Dec 26, 2018 11:50:29 AM | link
I've just seen this which also suggests the Israelis were hiding behind the passenger jets

Russian MoD: Israeli Air Force Used Landing Of Two Civilian Planes As Cover For Airstrikes

Syria had to delay actions against the F16s to safeguard the passenger jets.

Expect heavy Russian/Syrian retribution against Israel (especially geostrategic).

Bart Hansen , Dec 26, 2018 12:11:14 PM | link
As for relations between Russia and Israel, don't for get that Russian Jews represent over 10% of the Israeli population. Roughly one million out of nine million. Putin obviously is aware of this and may represent leverage for Israel. To use a favorite word of the pundits, this "emboldens" the blue haired PM
karlof1 , Dec 26, 2018 12:18:47 PM | link
All--Korybko, again, wrote hastily about something he fails to completely understand, thereby making a fool of himself. Syrian air defenses are quite adequate without needing to employ their S-300s. It's not clear if the changes to Syria's rules of engagement include targeting AND shooting down Zionist jets over Lebanon outside of Syrian airspace, which would employ S-300s. The following is Canthama's report from SyrPers posted @ 5 hours ago:

"Some latest news from Syria:

"1) Last night attack from the apartheid regime was very intense, used several vectors such as cruise missiles, ground to ground missiles etc in total it was reported 64 IDF missiles, this nbr can change as per SANA. only 7 went through the SyAAD defenses, which is an incredible rate of hits.

"There were several targets, all on the IDF hit list targets released few weeks ago, but only 1 target was hit SW of Damascus, causing material damages on a weapon depot, believed to be one of the hundreds carrying ammo recollected from the very terrorists the apartheid regime sent weapons to. SANA reported 3 SAA soldiers were injured during the explosion.

"It is believed the SAA fired retaliatory ground to ground missiles into occupied Golan which caused the interruption of IDF attack. SANA is yet to comment on that, but there are videos with Patriot attempts to intercept SAA missiles on the occupied Golan.

"2) There was not so ever any other casualty on this event, the web and news last night was full of fake news and intentionally planted news.

"3) Yesterday was a tough day in the apartheid regime, Natanyahu dismantle the cabinet for a new election and it seems the Likud party managed to hold him in power. Keep in mind the corruption case against Natanyahu is strong and moving to the last phase, he is desperate. On top of that the apartheid regime is completely against the US withdrawn from Syria, placing Natanyahu at odds with Trump, thus the attack in Syria as a sign of defiance and provocation to cause strong Syria/Russia's reaction, which it did not happen.

"4) SAA troops are in the very outskirt of Manbij, the deal is done between the MMC and the Syrian Government, there are a mix of some key SAA armies involved, bringing to all the Manbij pocket heavy tanks, missiles and thousands of soldiers. SyAAD has brought to Kuweyres and Aleppo airbases AA to protect the skies in all northern Syria thus controlling the events for the next months.

"Important to watch what is done in Qamishli and Hasaka airbases regarding AA defenses, if it is beefed up in the next few days, it will mean some inroads were agreed.

"5) Early today, the SAA has moved NW of Aleppo and liberated the town of Malikiyah, just northwest of Menagh airbase, this position was occupied by turkish backed terrorists. There are reports local SDF forces worked with the SAA on this ops. Not clear why this is happening, but it could be to divert the turkish backed terrorists that moved in force to the area near Manbij. There is no huge strategic gain with it but to control a small road that bypass the M5, but it could indicate advances toward Afrin and Azaz, but this is too early and more info is needed."

What the Zionists did was to commit an obvious Terrorist Attack on a peaceful capital city trying its best to celebrate Christmas that will further sully what remains of its reputation, as if it could get any lower than it is now. Nutty's clearly terrorizing for domestic reasons as there are Yellow Vest demonstrations and other political unrest occurring in Zionistan daily. Hopefully, he will be the last in a long line of Zionists Devils deserving a trial prior to dismemberment at The Hague.

It appears the lengthy, complicated back-room discussions between Damascus and Kurds has reaped results that are now becoming visible. The holiday's over, so now it's time to destroy the vermin. Iraq's PM is supposed to visit Assad for talks to coordinate several key actions: approach to Kurds and Turks; action East of Euphrates; and Iraqi government plans to deal with its Outlaw US Empire occupiers that are infiltrating from Syria. I've peered into corners to see if Iran or Syria have made any comment about Trump's withdrawal, but still nothing, which I entirely understand.

ADKC , Dec 26, 2018 12:28:22 PM | link
In any conventional conflict between Russia and the west, no matter how good the new Russian weapons are, Russia will quickly run out of munitions. The West can overwhelm with greater numbers of (poorer quality) weapons. This leads Russia into the position of surrendering or having to escalate (to nuclear). So it is a dead-end to directly get into a conflict with Israel as this too easily leads to the west mustering in support of Israel and a direct confrontation between Russia and the West. Tactically, the way to deal with Israel is to neutralise it's capabilities without resorting to direct confrontation and ultimatums (unsatisfying as that may be).
karlof1 , Dec 26, 2018 12:36:49 PM | link
This is supposed to complement the Syrian report I just posted but has yet to appear. This provides the reason why the Zionist attack on Damascus is an act of International Terrorism:

"The Israeli military put two civilian airliners in immediate danger, Igor Konashenkov, the Defense Ministry spokesman, told reporters. 'Provocative acts by the Israeli Air Force endangered two passenger jets when six of their F-16s carried out airstrikes on Syria from Lebanese airspace.'"

Such behavior cannot be condoned for any reasons whatsoever, and ought to produce an article 7 UNSC Resolution. Unfortunately, one Outlaw Nation protects the other Outlaw Nation, so such a proper international response will not be forthcoming. The Moroccan Terrorists are nothing compared to the Zionist and Outlaw US Empire's terrorists, and they all ought to share a similar fate.

abierno , Dec 26, 2018 12:58:09 PM | link
Was there another purpose behind the Israeli fighter jets hiding behind civilian aircraft? What would be the international reaction or more specifically the US reaction, to Syrian missiles downing a civilian commercial aircraft packed with civilian holiday passengers on Christmas Day? Would the Israeli role be masked in well-honed outrage at "Assad the butcher" again - without conscience - murdering defenseless civilians, necessitating immediate retaliation on the part of virtue signaling Western forces? Would it validate the cacophony from the Beltway regarding US withdrawal from Syria, vindicating Mattis' resignation concerns?
William Bowles , Dec 26, 2018 1:44:23 PM | link
james | Dec 26, 2018 1:27:36 PM | 43

See: https://21stcenturywire.com/2018/12/26/revealed-israels-idf-used-passenger-airliners-as-cover-during-christmas-day-attack-on-damascus/

karlof1 , Dec 26, 2018 1:47:15 PM | link
First report of Syrian retaliation I've seen today. No, it wasn't part of my detailed--6 paragraphs of Canthama's reporting--detained for who knows what as there were no links within it as Korybko's essay was previously linked. Many things ongoing today as the holiday's over, particularly movement around Manbij.

Elsewhere, Poroshenko ends martial law making him look weaker than ever. Arab League going against advice of Outlaw US Empire to reinstate Syria. Ground broken in Korea by North and South for construction of rail line linking them despite Outlaw Empire efforts to forestall. Japan says to world: Fuck-off, we're going to kill whales regardless.

james , Dec 26, 2018 3:18:00 PM | link
pat lang talking about what BM has already addressed here on the open thread... not clever.. extremely stupid and unfortunate as the same game can be playing on airplanes arriving in tel aviv at some point...
https://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2018/12/how-clever.html
ADKC , Dec 26, 2018 7:58:27 PM | link
The purpose of a provocation is to lead the provoked into a rash act. There are many posters on various sites who are guaranteed to condemn Putin for not taking (rash) action in response to the latest provocation. I profoundly distrust such posters because they appear to almost be acting in concert with the provocateur.

Today, Poroshenko announced the end of martial law. Poroshenko's plans to provoke conflict with Russia and suspend elections appear to be effectively over. We can look forward to new elections, a new President and an improved relationship with Ukraine. Where would we be now if Putin had responded to Poroshenko's provocations as some would wish?

Jackrabbit , Dec 26, 2018 9:01:28 PM | link
What would've been Trump's reaction if Syria had mistakenly downed a civilian airliner on Christmas Day as the Israel's might've been hoping for?

Another round of missile attacks on Syria? Direct attack on Assad? Re-commit to the occupation of Eastern Syria?

Whatever it might've been, we can be be sure that Americans and Europeans would've been overwhelmingly supportive: those that were critical of Trump's pulling out of Syria and those that were cheering his pulling out of Syria. United. Against. Assad.

And ready to face any counteraction by Assad or Putin. Together.

Still think Mattis' resignation was not a PR stunt?

[Dec 27, 2018] The destruction and destabilisation of the ME, an Israeli plan, as far as I know.

Notable quotes:
"... Maybe I am overestimating the intelligence of MIC profiteers, but my impression is that those thieves know that their loot is only useful as long as they are alive. There is a lot of silly hostile talk against Russia and China, but have you noticed how the US military always makes sure that there are no direct confrontations with countries that can turn the US into radioactive dust? The profiteers want huge Pentagon budget to steal from, but not the war where they lose along with everyone else. ..."
Dec 27, 2018 | www.unz.com

jilles dykstra , says: December 25, 2018 at 5:31 pm GMT

@Z-man Israel fears Iran, is my idea. Norman Finkelstein once stated that Israeli jews do not see how there ever can be peace with the Palestinians 'after all we did to them'. Not all jews are idiots. Forgot in which book I read that in the thirties a Zionist reached Palestine, and saw that this was not the 'land without people for people without land'. He stated 'this is a crime'.

The destruction and destabilisation of the ME, an Israeli plan, as far as I know.

In 1921 and later years there was the enormous population exchange, without any financial compensation, between Turkey and Greece. To this day tensions exist between the two countries.

Iran is one of the oldest civilisations. Twice, one might say even three time, the west overthrew Iranian democracy. Iran knows of course quite well that the VS brought Saddam to power so that he could subjugate Iran, that had rid itself of the USA puppet shah. Iran also of course knows quite well Jewish power in the USA, Bush' s promise to AIPAC to destroy Iraq. Will those leading Iran now ever trust the USA or Israel ?

So that Netanyahu and USA jewry now are in complete panic, who had expected it to be otherwise ? Uri Avnery wrote 'the only language zionists understand is power. Is there a problem, use power, if it does not help, use more power, if that also fails, use even more power'.

There has never been any serious negotiation between Israel and its neighbors, or with the Palestinians. About the Oslo negotiations a book appeared in Israel with the title 'How we fooled the Palestinians'? Sharon answered any Arab League peace proposal with force, Jenin, one of them, if my recollection is correct. There always was the idea of overwhelming more military power, and of USA support.

Kissinger saved Israel in the 1973 Yom Kippur war by flying over hundreds of the newest USA anti tank weapons, wire guided, TOW. What will the USA do in case Israel is attacked ? Is Netanyahu crazy enough to provoke an attack ?

AnonFromTN , says: December 26, 2018 at 10:37 pm GMT
@Harold Smith

Maybe I am overestimating the intelligence of MIC profiteers, but my impression is that those thieves know that their loot is only useful as long as they are alive. There is a lot of silly hostile talk against Russia and China, but have you noticed how the US military always makes sure that there are no direct confrontations with countries that can turn the US into radioactive dust? The profiteers want huge Pentagon budget to steal from, but not the war where they lose along with everyone else.

As to the wall, it is one of the silliest projects ever suggested. Maybe that's why it was so easy to sell it to the intellectually disadvantaged electorate. There are two things that can stop illegal immigration. First, go for the employers, enact a law that fines them to the tune of $50,000 or more per every illegal they employ. Second, enact the law that anyone caught residing in the US illegally has no right to enter the US legally, to obtain asylum, permanent residency, or citizenship for life, and include a provision that marriage to a US citizen does not nullify this ban. Then enforce both laws. After that illegals would run out of the country, and greedy employers won't hire any more. Naturally, the wall, even if built, won't change anything: as long as there are employers trying to save on salaries, immigration fees, and Social Security tax, and people willing to live and work illegally risking nothing, no wall would stem the flow.

Unfortunately, no side is even thinking about real measures, both are just posturing.

[Nov 26, 2018] The degree of bombast coming out of the Israeli establishment is now deafening

Nov 26, 2018 | craigmurray.org.uk

Yeah, Right , October 24, 2018 at 02:46

"Yeah, Right, there's no sign of wavering though."

Agreed, there is no *sign* of wavering.

Indeed, the degree of bombast coming out of the Israeli establishment is now deafening.

"The Golan Heights aren't even an issue today, that's how bad it's gotten."

Oh, I think that once the Syrian government wipes out the last of the jihadists and then forces the US to withdraw from Syrian territory then you will find the Golan Heights will become very much a hot potato.

After all, it will then be the last piece of Syrian territory that is not under the control of the Syrians, and they'll be in no mood to be "intimidated" by the Israelis.

The Israelis will keep beating up on the Gaza Strip? Sure, they will.
And that will lull the Likud into thinking that the IDF is still a mighty fighting force, sure, it will.

But the strategic situation for Israeli is getting worse and worse, to the point where the Israelis dare not attack Lebanon for fear that the Syrians will take the opportunity to seize the Golan Heights, and the Israelis dare not launch an attack into Syria lest Hezbollah launch a counter-attack on the flank of that expeditionary force.

And either way there is this slight problem: the IDF is now a bunch of fluffy-girls-blouses, and as such is likely to get its arse kicked in a fight with a real army.

laguerre has it correct below: the IDF has been hollowed out, as has Israeli society as a whole. They are riding for a fall, and when they do they will come down to earth with a thud.

And nobody will be more surprised than them, which is when they will stampede for the door.

Yeah, Right , October 24, 2018 at 02:52

"That said, the airforce is very good, but it's the only arm that works now."

Rather highlights what an "own goal" the Israelis scored when their jets hid behind that Russia Ilyushin Il-20 plane.

They had been very successful in convincing the Russians not to hand over any S-300 missiles to the Syrians, and now the Syrians not only have them, but they have the most up-to-date version.

Way to go, guys .

SA , October 23, 2018 at 11:41

Hatuey
I somewhat share your pessimism but not want to give in yet. The problem is that the way this has been set and the ground rules have been laid is that the whole 'international community' is complicit in racism and ethnic cleansing and that is why there will be no progress. The parameters set are self contradictory, either you recognise that Palestinians have the right to Palestine or you don't. Recognising that they have the right, at least an equal right, negates the current wisdom that some people have more rights than others, and that this trumps all other rights. This obvious point has become a taboo.

Hatuey , October 23, 2018 at 14:54

SA, if you think this about "right" or "rights" or notions of justice or anything like that, you aren't even in the right solar system, never mind the right planet. That horse bolted decades ago.

Nobody with any seriousness disputes Israel's criminality in any of this. And nobody with any seriousness disputes that we are talking about the highest order of crimes either, ethnic cleansing, war of aggression, collective punishment, etc.

This is about brute force, nothing else. The UN has been condemning Israel continually for about 50 years and nothing has come of it because the US vetoes just about everything.

Andyoldlabour , October 23, 2018 at 15:19

@Hatuey,

"The UN has been condemning Israel continually for about 50 years and nothing has come of it because the US vetoes just about everything."

That is the rather large elephant in the room, and one which nobody seems to want to confront or even admit to.

SA , October 23, 2018 at 17:31

I realise what you say but nevertheless there is a conversation going on that is a total cover up of reality and trying to justify the unjustifiable. This conversation has set the limits of what can and can't be discussed.

Bill Rollinson , October 23, 2018 at 12:40

UK, US, EU, NZ, Canada, Australia, all controlled by Zionist puppets. This is why Israel get away with what they do and to an extent Saudi, who have 'the goods' on UK dealings.
It's about time the people of these nations took responsibility for the actions of their 'elected' MP's, especially those with 'dual nationality'.
In UK Corbyn is being attacked, not for his policies, which haven't been mentioned, but for what he stands for. His promise to recognise Palestine, if he becomes PM, has them really scared, as has his policy for nationalised banks, that lend Government [Sovereign] money to Entrepreneurs [SME's] who currently cant get loans from banks, as they provide competition to their Corporate friends. He also wants new bank rules, no doubt based on Glass Seagal.

He'll need to watch is back. Look what happened to Lincoln, Andrew Jackson, John F Kennedy when they went against the money men!

[Nov 10, 2018] The Reasons for Netanyahu's Panic by Alastair Crooke

Highly recommended!
Looks like time is working against Israelis in general and Netanyahu administration specifically... the nest result of 10`8 is he supply of S300 by Russia, which is a real thereat to Isreli air supremacy, no matter what Israili minister of offence said.
Alastair Crooke: "Belatedly, Israel has understood that it backed the wrong side in Syria -- and it has lost. It is not really in a position to demand anything. It will not get an American enforced buffer zone beyond the Golan armistice line, nor will the Iraqi-Syrian border be closed, or somehow "supervised" on Israel's behalf."
In the next ten years Israel regional position might deteriorate. It antagonized Palestinians to the point of "no reconciliation". And as US faced its own internal difficulties and divisions (and neocons in the USA now are look mostly negatively by wide swats of population), Israel might again face hostile Arab countries on the "never negotiated" borders. To find itself the country without negotiated borders with the hostile encirclement, of a kind Washington tries to create for Russia, is the position that any diplomat would like to avoid.
So it looks like the key idea of Zionism -- colonizing the land and displacing Palestinians much like Indians were displaced in the USA or aborigines in Australia, in retrospect looks not that realistic. A lot of Jewish talent and Western money was spend on a this variation of "Drang nach Osten"
Notable quotes:
"... It will not get an American enforced buffer zone beyond the Golan armistice line, nor will the Iraqi-Syrian border be closed, or somehow "supervised" on Israel's behalf. ..."
"... simply failed ..."
"... Israel's unexpected failure was deeply feared in the West, and in the Gulf too. A small, armed (revolutionary) movement had stood up to Israel -- against overwhelming odds -- and prevailed: it had stood its ground. This precedent was widely perceived to be a potential regional "game changer." The feudal Gulf autocracies sensed in Hizbullah's achievement the latent danger to their own rule from such armed resistance. ..."
"... And the war in Syria started to be mooted as the "corrective strategy" to the 2006 failure (as early as 2007) -- though it was only with the events following 2011 that the "corrective strategy" came to implemented, à outrance ..."
"... Syria -- with indisputable help from its allies -- seems about to prevail: it has stood its ground, against almost unbelievable odds. ..."
"... Syria's "standing its ground" represents a historic turning ..."
"... with each other ..."
"... Netayahu's "near panic" (if that is indeed what occurred) may well be a reflection of this seismic shift taking place in the region. Israel has long backed the losing side -- and now finds itself "alone" and fearing for its near proxies (the Jordanians and the Kurds). The "new" corrective strategy from Tel Aviv, it appears, is to focus on winning Iraq away from Iran, and embedding it into the Israel-U.S.-Saudi alliance. ..."
"... Daniel Levy has written a compelling piece to argue that Israelis generally would not subscribe to what I have written above, but rather: "Netanyahu's lengthy term in office, multiple electoral successes, and ability to hold together a governing coalition [is based on] him having a message that resonates with a broader public. It is a sales pitch that Netanyahu [has] 'brought the state of Israel to the best situation in its history, a rising global force the state of Israel is diplomatically flourishing.' Netanyahu had beaten back what he had called the 'fake-news claim' that without a deal with the Palestinians 'Israel will be isolated, weakened and abandoned' facing a 'diplomatic tsunami.' ..."
"... "Difficult though it is for his political detractors to acknowledge, Netanyahu's claim resonates with the public because it reflects something that is real, and that has shifted the center of gravity of Israeli politics further and further to the right. It is a claim that, if correct and replicable over time, will leave a legacy that lasts well beyond Netanyahu's premiership and any indictment he might face. ..."
"... "And then events took a further turn in Netanyahu's favor with the rise to power in the United States and parts of Central Eastern Europe (and to enhanced prominence elsewhere in Europe and the West) of the very ethno-nationalist trend to which Netanyahu is so committed, working to replace liberal with illiberal democracy. One should not underestimate Israel and Netanyahu's importance as an ideological and practical avant-garde for this trend." ..."
"... And this week, Hassan Nasrallah called on the Lebanese government " to devise a plan and take a sovereign decision to liberate the Shebaa Farms and the Kfarshouba Hills" from Israel. ..."
"... Will ethno-nationalism provide Israel with a new support base? Well, firstly, I do not see Israel's doctrine as "illiberal democracy," but rather an apartheid system intended to subordinate Palestinian political rights. And as the political schism in the West widens, with one "wing" seeking to delegitimize the other by tarnishing them as racists, bigots and Nazis, it is clear that the real ..."
"... The increasingly "not to be" constituency of the Middle East has a simpler word for Netanyahu's "ethnic nationalism." They call it simply Western colonialism. Round one of Chas Freeman's making the Middle East " be ..."
"... For all Netanyahu's bluster about Israel standing stronger, and having beaten back "what he had called the 'fake-news claim' that without a deal with the Palestinians 'Israel will be isolated, weakened and abandoned' facing a 'diplomatic tsunami,'" Netanyahu may have just discovered, in these last two weeks, that he confused facing down the weakened Palestinians with "victory" -- only at the very moment of his apparent triumph, to find himself alone in a new, "New Middle East." ..."
"... [For more on this topic, see Consortiumnews.com's " The Possible Education of Donald Trump. "] ..."
www.defenddemocracy.press
... ... ...

Belatedly, Israel has understood that it backed the wrong side in Syria – and it has lost. It is not really in a position to demand anything. It will not get an American enforced buffer zone beyond the Golan armistice line, nor will the Iraqi-Syrian border be closed, or somehow "supervised" on Israel's behalf.

Of course, the Syrian aspect is important, but to focus only on that, would be to "miss the forest for the trees." The 2006 war by Israel to destroy Hizbullah (egged on by the U.S., Saudi Arabia -- and even a few Lebanese) was a failure. Symbolically, for the first time in the Middle East, a technologically sophisticated, and lavishly armed, Western nation-state simply failed . What made the failure all the more striking (and painful) was that a Western state was not just bested militarily, it had lost also the electronic and human intelligence war, too -- both spheres in which the West thought their primacy unassailable.

The Fallout from Failure

Israel's unexpected failure was deeply feared in the West, and in the Gulf too. A small, armed (revolutionary) movement had stood up to Israel -- against overwhelming odds -- and prevailed: it had stood its ground. This precedent was widely perceived to be a potential regional "game changer." The feudal Gulf autocracies sensed in Hizbullah's achievement the latent danger to their own rule from such armed resistance.

The reaction was immediate. Hizbullah was quarantined -- as best the full sanctioning powers of America could manage. And the war in Syria started to be mooted as the "corrective strategy" to the 2006 failure (as early as 2007) -- though it was only with the events following 2011 that the "corrective strategy" came to implemented, à outrance .

Against Hizbullah, Israel had thrown its full military force (though Israelis always say, now, that they could have done more). And against Syria, the U.S., Europe, the Gulf States (and Israel in the background) have thrown the kitchen sink: jihadists, al-Qaeda, ISIS (yes), weapons , bribes, sanctions and the most overwhelming information war yet witnessed. Yet Syria -- with indisputable help from its allies -- seems about to prevail: it has stood its ground, against almost unbelievable odds.

Just to be clear: if 2006 marked a key point of inflection, Syria's "standing its ground" represents a historic turning of much greater magnitude . It should be understood that Saudi Arabia's (and Britain's and America's) tool of fired-up, radical Sunnism has been routed. And with it, the Gulf States, but particularly Saudi Arabia are damaged. The latter has relied on the force of Wahabbism since the first foundation of the kingdom: but Wahabbism in Lebanon, Syria and Iraq has been roundly defeated and discredited (even for most Sunni Muslims). It may well be defeated in Yemen too. This defeat will change the face of Sunni Islam.

Already, we see the Gulf Cooperation Council, which originally was founded in 1981 by six Gulf tribal leaders for the sole purpose of preserving their hereditary tribal rule in the Peninsula, now warring with each other , in what is likely to be a protracted and bitter internal fight. The "Arab system," the prolongation of the old Ottoman structures by the complaisant post-World War I victors, Britain and France, seems to be out of its 2013 "remission" (bolstered by the coup in Egypt), and to have resumed its long-term decline.

The Losing Side

Netayahu's "near panic" (if that is indeed what occurred) may well be a reflection of this seismic shift taking place in the region. Israel has long backed the losing side -- and now finds itself "alone" and fearing for its near proxies (the Jordanians and the Kurds). The "new" corrective strategy from Tel Aviv, it appears, is to focus on winning Iraq away from Iran, and embedding it into the Israel-U.S.-Saudi alliance.

If so, Israel and Saudi Arabia are probably too late into the game, and are likely underestimating the visceral hatred engendered among so many Iraqis of all segments of society for the murderous actions of ISIS. Not many believe the improbable (Western) narrative that ISIS suddenly emerged armed, and fully financed, as a result of former Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's alleged "sectarianism": No, as rule-of-thumb, behind each such well-breached movement -- stands a state .

Daniel Levy has written a compelling piece to argue that Israelis generally would not subscribe to what I have written above, but rather: "Netanyahu's lengthy term in office, multiple electoral successes, and ability to hold together a governing coalition [is based on] him having a message that resonates with a broader public. It is a sales pitch that Netanyahu [has] 'brought the state of Israel to the best situation in its history, a rising global force the state of Israel is diplomatically flourishing.' Netanyahu had beaten back what he had called the 'fake-news claim' that without a deal with the Palestinians 'Israel will be isolated, weakened and abandoned' facing a 'diplomatic tsunami.'

"Difficult though it is for his political detractors to acknowledge, Netanyahu's claim resonates with the public because it reflects something that is real, and that has shifted the center of gravity of Israeli politics further and further to the right. It is a claim that, if correct and replicable over time, will leave a legacy that lasts well beyond Netanyahu's premiership and any indictment he might face.

"Netanyahu's assertion is that he is not merely buying time in Israel's conflict with the Palestinians to improve the terms of an eventual and inevitable compromise. Netanyahu is laying claim to something different -- the possibility of ultimate victory, the permanent and definitive defeat of the Palestinians, their national and collective goals.

"In over a decade as prime minister, Netanyahu has consistently and unequivocally rejected any plans or practical steps that even begin to address Palestinian aspirations. Netanyahu is all about perpetuating and exacerbating the conflict, not about managing it, let alone resolving it [The] message is clear: there will be no Palestinian state because the West Bank and East Jerusalem are simply Greater Israel."

No Palestinian State

Levy continues: "The approach overturns assumptions that have guided peace efforts and American policy for over a quarter of a century: that Israel has no alternative to an eventual territorial withdrawal and acceptance of something sufficiently resembling an independent sovereign Palestinian state broadly along the 1967 lines. It challenges the presumption that the permanent denial of such an outcome is incompatible with how Israel and Israelis perceive themselves as being a democracy. Additionally, it challenges the peace-effort supposition that this denial would in any way be unacceptable to the key allies on which Israel depends

"In more traditional bastions of support for Israel, Netanyahu took a calculated gamble -- would enough American Jewish support continue to stand with an increasingly illiberal and ethno-nationalist Israel, thereby facilitating the perpetuation of the lopsided U.S.-Israel relationship? Netanyahu bet yes, and he was right."

And here is another interesting point that Levy makes:

"And then events took a further turn in Netanyahu's favor with the rise to power in the United States and parts of Central Eastern Europe (and to enhanced prominence elsewhere in Europe and the West) of the very ethno-nationalist trend to which Netanyahu is so committed, working to replace liberal with illiberal democracy. One should not underestimate Israel and Netanyahu's importance as an ideological and practical avant-garde for this trend."

Former U.S. Ambassador and respected political analyst Chas Freeman wrote recently very bluntly: "the central objective of U.S. policy in the Middle East has long been to achieve regional acceptance for the Jewish-settler state in Palestine." Or, in other words, for Washington, its Middle East policy -- and all its actions -- have been determined by "to be, or not to be": "To be" (that is) -- with Israel, or not "to be" (with Israel).

Israel's Lost Ground

The key point now is that the region has just made a seismic shift into the "not to be" camp. Is there much that America can do about that? Israel very much is alone with only a weakened Saudi Arabia at its side, and there are clear limits to what Saudi Arabia can do.

The U.S. calling on Arab states to engage more with Iraqi Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi seems somehow inadequate. Iran is not looking for war with Israel (as a number of Israeli analysts have acknowledged ); but, too, the Syrian President has made clear that his government intends to recover "all Syria" -- and all Syria includes the occupied Golan Heights. And this week, Hassan Nasrallah called on the Lebanese government " to devise a plan and take a sovereign decision to liberate the Shebaa Farms and the Kfarshouba Hills" from Israel.

Read also: Church Leaders Condemn 'Brutal' US-Led Attack on Syria, Praise Gov't Forces

A number Israeli commentators already are saying that the "writing is on the wall" -- and that it would be better for Israel to cede territory unilaterally, rather than risk the loss of hundreds of lives of Israeli servicemen in a futile attempt to retain it. That, though, seems hardly congruent with the Israeli Prime Minister's "not an inch, will we yield" character and recent statements .

Will ethno-nationalism provide Israel with a new support base? Well, firstly, I do not see Israel's doctrine as "illiberal democracy," but rather an apartheid system intended to subordinate Palestinian political rights. And as the political schism in the West widens, with one "wing" seeking to delegitimize the other by tarnishing them as racists, bigots and Nazis, it is clear that the real America First-ers will try, at any price, to distance themselves from the extremists.

Daniel Levy points out that the Alt-Right leader, Richard Spencer, depicts his movement as White Zionism. Is this really likely to build support for Israel? How long before the "globalists" use precisely Netanyahu's "illiberal democracy" meme to taunt the U.S. Right that this is precisely the kind of society for which they too aim: with Mexicans and black Americans treated like Palestinians?

'Ethnic Nationalism'

The increasingly "not to be" constituency of the Middle East has a simpler word for Netanyahu's "ethnic nationalism." They call it simply Western colonialism. Round one of Chas Freeman's making the Middle East " be with Israel" consisted of the shock-and-awe assault on Iraq. Iraq is now allied with Iran, and the Hashad militia (PMU) are becoming a widely mobilized fighting force. The second stage was 2006. Today, Hizbullah is a regional force, and not a just Lebanese one.

The third strike was at Syria. Today, Syria is allied with Russia, Iran, Hizbullah and Iraq. What will comprise the next round in the "to be, or not to be" war?

For all Netanyahu's bluster about Israel standing stronger, and having beaten back "what he had called the 'fake-news claim' that without a deal with the Palestinians 'Israel will be isolated, weakened and abandoned' facing a 'diplomatic tsunami,'" Netanyahu may have just discovered, in these last two weeks, that he confused facing down the weakened Palestinians with "victory" -- only at the very moment of his apparent triumph, to find himself alone in a new, "New Middle East."

Perhaps Pravda was right, and Netanyahu did appear close to panic, during his hurriedly arranged, and urgently called, Sochi summit.

[For more on this topic, see Consortiumnews.com's " The Possible Education of Donald Trump. "]

* Alastair Crooke is a former British diplomat who was a senior figure in British intelligence and in European Union diplomacy. He is the founder and director of the Conflicts Forum.

[Nov 09, 2018] Abu-Bakr al-Baghdadi possible connection to Israel

Nov 09, 2018 | www.zerohedge.com

ardent 19 minutes ago ( Edited ) remove Share link Copy Report

"Abu-Bakr al-Baghdadi, the leader of ISIS, is an Israeli Mossad-trained operative whose real name is Elliot Shimon, a *** who took courses in Islamic theology and Arabic Speech." - Snowden

Old Poor Richard 49 minutes ago remove Share link Copy

Now how would Ed Snowden know this? Is he some kind of super h4x0r tapped into the Pegasus mainframe?

ShakenNotStirred 42 minutes ago remove Share link Copy

I heard you have a bunch of Mossad agents below your bed. Check it out or you will be "Mossaded" before the morning.

passingthroughtown 2 hours ago remove Share link Copy

Proving once again that the Saudis and Israelies have been working hand in glove for a very long time. Is there any doubt about the connection between the two and what happened on 911?

But what is even more disturbing:

In recent days, Egyptian President Abdel Fatah Al-Sisi and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu have reached out to the Trump administration to express support for the crown prince, arguing that he is an important strategic partner in the region, said people familiar with the calls.

"Strategic partner" makes it all okay. This is merely a glimpse of what is coming in the future. You ain't seen NOTHIN yet.

He–Mene Mox Mox 3 hours ago remove Share link Copy

Here is more of what Snowden was talking about: https://citizenlab.ca/2018/10/the-nso-connection-to-jamal-khashoggi/ .

Derezzed 3 hours ago ( Edited ) remove Share link Copy

" Israel is routinely at the top of the US' classified threat list of hackers along with Russia and China [ ] even though it is an ally "
Our best allies !
" Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu asked the United States to stand by Saudi Crown Prince Mohamed Bin Salman (MBS) in the wake of the Khashoggi case. "
The most morale people !
I bet they are behind ISIS too with their (((allies))) and the (((deep state))).
But hey isn't it conspirationnist and antisemitic to accuse them of anything ?
Because you know as the most " kind " and " human " people there needs to be laws, censorship and repression, to protect them from being hated.
< 1% of the global population and they make the headlines 4/5 times a day.
Can only be bad luck and a cohencidence !

Dickweed Wang 3 hours ago remove Share link Copy

"Israel is routinely at the top of the US' classified threat list of hackers along with Russia and China [ ] even though it is an ally"

Sorry Ed, IsraHell isn't an ally of the USA. It's a ******* parasite and it's well on its way to killing the host.

alamac 4 hours ago remove Share link Copy

I guess Netanyahoo and KSM love each other because they have a common hobby: Killing Arabs.

RagnarRedux 4 hours ago ( Edited ) remove Share link Copy

ISRAEL FLAGGED AS TOP SPY THREAT TO U.S. IN NEW SNOWDEN/NSA DOCUMENT (2007)

https://www.newsweek.com/israel-flagged-top-spy-threat-us-new-snowdennsa-document-262991

Former U.S. Officials Say CIA Considers Israel To Be Mideast's Biggest Spy Threat (2012)

U.S. intelligence agents stationed in Israel report multiple cases of equipment tampering, suspected break ins in recent years; CIA officials tell the Associated Press that Israel may have leaked info that led to the capture of an agent inside Syria's chemical weapons program.

https://www.haaretz.com/for-cia-israel-is-a-spy-therat-1.5272328

He–Mene Mox Mox 4 hours ago remove Share link Copy

What Snowden says is true. Here is what the Canadians have put together about NSO: https://citizenlab.ca/2018/09/hide-and-seek-tracking-nso-groups-pegasus-spyware-to-operations-in-45-countries/

What is really troubling, is Kushner's involvement in the affair. He would have been debriefed once he returned to the U.S., not only by his father-in-law, Trump, but the intel community too. You can bet every dollar you have that both the Israelis and Saudis were using NSO surveillance on him. What is even more troubling, it appears that the action taken to "neutralize" Jamal Khashoggi, more than likely had the blessings of Washington, since Kushner met with the Saudis prior to the killing. It really makes one wonder, since Kushner declined to discuss the state of his relationship with Prince Mohammed.

GRDguy 4 hours ago remove Share link Copy

"licensed only to legitimate government agencies"

That's the problem.

There are no legitimate government agencies any more.

[Oct 12, 2018] Russia's answer to this theory? "Let the Israelis test our system and we shall see the results"

Oct 09, 2018 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

Northern Star October 9, 2018 at 11:31 am

Very cogent informed reaction to and analysis of the political and military aspects of this rapidly developing story:

https://syria360.wordpress.com/2018/10/09/israel-trains-to-counter-the-s-300-while-russia-expands-towards-lebanon/

"Informed sources said: "Tel Aviv and Moscow have never ceased their regular coordination to monitor and avoid air incidents over the Levant. The downing of the Russian IL-20 and the death of all its 15 crewmen forced Israel to communicate its belligerent intentions much ahead of time to Russia, to put its jets and personnel in safety. Indeed, it was the downing of the IL-20 that speeded up Russia's delivery of the long-awaited S-300 to Syria.

Although Russia possesses high-frequency VHF, tracking systems and radar capable of detecting the F-35 and making it visible, it is another matter to shoot it down with the S-300. Russia's answer to this theory? "Let the Israelis test our system and we shall see the results". (LOL!!!) BTW ..In consideration of certain Stooges-who know who they are- I will restrict my use of "LOL" !!!!!!

However, Israel can fly low, violating Lebanese airspace and avoiding Syrian radar so as to hit objectives in Syria from afar. To avoid this only too plausible scenario, Syria needs to establish a missile protected radar coverage on the eastern chain of mountains on its border with Lebanon, so as to be able to "see" all Israeli jets and the air movement above Lebanon and Israel at all times."

Jen October 9, 2018 at 1:10 pm
As Bernhard at Moon of Alabama notes, if Israeli warplanes were to fly low through Lebanese airspace to avoid Syrian radar, they become targets for Hezbollah's short-range air defense missiles.
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/10/syria-sitrep-the-s-300-air-defense-arrives.html#more
Mark Chapman October 9, 2018 at 4:47 pm
Low-level coverage for the S-300 is 25 meters. I don't think you will find too many Israeli pilots willing to fly that low for a full intercept mission, and the attacking aircraft itself cannot see shit at that altitude. The most basic version of the missile can reach out and tap your ass at 47 km at that altitude, in flat terrain. http://aviationweek.com/site-files/aviationweek.com/files/uploads/2015/07/asd_08_06_2015_dossier.pdf

Although the Israelis' Popeye cruise missile can be launched from ground level and has a maximum range about equivalent to that of the basic SA-10, its range at that altitude is basically line-of-sight unless it is receiving external targeting data from an airborne platform which is at a much higher altitude and can see farther. Unfortunately, that re-introduces the original problem.

https://www.onwar.com/weapons/rocket/missiles/Popeye-missile.html

Additionally, this set of circumstances is tailor-made for a technique known as 'SAMbush', in which the S-300 radar goes active to make the attacking aircraft dive for cover taking them into the coverage of a different system (such as Pantsir) which is optimized for low-level detection and engagement, but whose location was unknown up to that moment. Jen alludes to something like this.

As someone mentioned elsewhere, the real test is for Israel to come on out and give it a try. You gotta ask yourself a question – do I feel lucky?

Well, DO ya, punks?

[Sep 27, 2018] Russia and the Taming of the Israelis by Israel Shamir

Notable quotes:
"... For otherwise, why did the Israelis do that? Were they just careless and brutal, as is their wont? They didn't give a damn about the Russians, and considered them a lesser breed, whose life is of little importance. This is a possible reading, quite consistent with their general attitude to strangers considered to be children of a lesser God ..."
"... Israel Shamir can be reached at adam@israelshamir.net ..."
Sep 27, 2018 | www.unz.com

There was a lull when the disaster of the downed plane completely disappeared from media, Russian or Western. It was not mentioned by the New York Times , it was not mentioned by the Russian newspapers. And after that, unexpectedly, the Russian Defence Minister Mr Shoygu made his announcement. Russia responded adequately, closing the sky over Syria, or at least over Western Syria, and activating its powerful GPS-jamming system off the Syrian coast. Israel has lost its right to bomb Syria at will.

The Russians said it will take them two weeks to deliver, install and make the system operative. I have heard that the system of up to eight S-300 had already been delivered by massive airlift a few days ago, with cargo planes landing in Syria every few minutes. Probably two weeks will be needed to install and activate the system.

Now in Israel the response was of two kinds. The hot heads said Israel is not worried by S-300; they know how to deal with it, and if necessary, Israeli commandos will come and sabotage the system just in time for a massive air attack by Israeli bombers. Sensible people said Israel should try to repair relations with the Russian military. The Russians did a lot of what the Israelis asked them for, including removal of Iranian forces from the vicinity of Israeli borders (rather, armistice lines). A thorough investigation of the air disaster may uncover the mistakes and convince the Russians that they aren't likely to occur again.

Netanyahu sounded like he was trying to minimise the strife with the Russians. After meeting with President Trump in New York, he said that he came with specific requests "and I received everything I wanted from him [Trump]. Our goal is to preserve the connection with Russia and on the other hand to defend Israel's security against these threats."

So, for good or bad, Israel is not going to break relations with Russia, and Russia is not going to go further, beyond sealing Syria's sky for Israeli raids. If Israeli leadership will keep its fingers away from Syria, things may cool down. Otherwise, the results will be quite unpredictable.

In Israel, there aren't many people at the top, apart of Netanyahu and Lieberman, who cherish their country's involvement with Russia. For Israelis, Putin is one of many unsavoury leaders from Idi Amin to Orban their country has to play ball with. Russia is not popular with ordinary Israelis who prefer America or Germany. A lot of Israelis will be pleased with breakup of this connection. Immediately after the Russian decision had been announced, Haaretz had made its feelings clear: "In recent years, Russia has been caught lying or spreading disinformation about its role in a number of incidents, the most recent being its involvement in the U.S. presidential elections, the poisoning of the former Russian agent Sergei Skripal and his daughter in Britain, and the invasion of Crimea and eastern Ukraine. So it's hard to believe that anyone but Syria and Iran will adopt the Russian version of last week's events." This is not a way one's partner is usually described.

More conspiratorially minded Israelis opined that beyond downing of the Il, there was an Air Force plot against Netanyahu and Lieberman who are unpopular within the top echelon of IDF. Others say it was an American Secret Service plot to undermine Russian-Israeli connection.

For otherwise, why did the Israelis do that? Were they just careless and brutal, as is their wont? They didn't give a damn about the Russians, and considered them a lesser breed, whose life is of little importance. This is a possible reading, quite consistent with their general attitude to strangers considered to be children of a lesser God .

On the other hand, it is possible that the whole Israeli raid had been staged to down the reconnaissance plane and to leave the Russians without its real-time intelligence data. In 1967, the Israelis bombed and sunk the USS Liberty , an electronic spy ship, the then equivalent of Il-20, for they did not want to have foreign eyes and ears in the area. But then, there was an ongoing full-scale war between Israel and Egypt, and the USS Liberty had been attacked just before the planned Israeli invasion of the Syrian Golan Heights.

Could it be that Israelis expected an attack by France, England and the US upon Syria on that night, an attack that did not materialise thanks to the Russian-Turkish agreement on Idlib? There was a British plane and a French frigate in the vicinity, and a whole lot of American ships.

The agreement on Idlib was a very important event, though Il-20 displaced it out of our collective memory. Putin and Erdogan reached a working compromise, thus avoiding almost unavoidable large scale hostilities. The White Helmets had already prepared a film with staged chemical attack upon Syrian children, but the agreement had made the attack improbable in the first place. It is possible that the American coalition assault had been postponed in the last moment, when the Russian plane had been already downed.

However, all is well that ends well. Russian decision to create practically a no-fly zone is a good decision, good for all. It is good for Russians as they learned that their Commander-in-Chief can make strong decisions. It is good for Syria, as they will suffer less of the Israeli bombardments. And it is really good for Israel, as this naughty child, a spoiled brat, a darling of America had to be forbidden to bother neighbouring children. The automatic missile defence system will provide a threat of spanking. The kid had been told that he is not allowed to kill neighbours. With its excessive aggressiveness multiplied by impunity, Israel has been spoiled, as anybody would. With this block, Israel can still become a mensch , and for this chance, thank you, Russia.

Will Tel-Aviv use this chance? The US will try to frustrate the Russian taming of Israel. John Bolton and Mike Pompeo already declared that no one may interfere with Israel's divine right to freely bomb Syria. Will the Israeli lobby in America be able to neutralise Moscow's decision and unhinge Israeli soul once again? Will they convince Putin to postpone his decision like they did in April, and a few years ago? I do not think so.

We can congratulate the leadership of Russia on the consistent, justified and well-balanced decision that may yet tame the Jewish shrew.

Israel Shamir can be reached at adam@israelshamir.net

[Sep 25, 2018] Why did the Il-20 was not protected by our fighters? by Victor Alksnis

Slightly edited Yandex translations
Notable quotes:
"... Remember downed in November 2015, the Turkish F-16 our su-24? After all, one of the main reasons for this is that no one warned the crew about the presence and possible attack by its Turkish fighter in the vicinity due to the lack of control of airspace in the area and due to this our bomber was not covered by fighters, when it needed such a protection. ..."
"... Why was there no control of airspace over the Mediterranean sea? Why Israeli fighter were not discovered, why the Fight control center did not issue the command to the crew of the Il-20 immediately go in the direction of the Cyprus and wit for then of Israeli attack? ..."
"... Yes, periodically A-50 appear in Syria. But only periodically. And because of this, our planes are shot down and pilots are killed. ..."
Sep 18, 2018 | vz.ru

For almost three years, I have been publicly asking the same questions: "Why is Syria still not created a continuous radar field? Where are our aircraft AWACS (long-range radar detection and control) type A-50 (a-50U), and even more so A-100? Why are they not" hanging " around the clock over the middle East region, as do the United States and Israel?

Why do our "sworn partners" have full information about the air situation over the middle East region, and we are fighting there with our eyes closed? Why are our bombers, transporters and reconnaissance planes not covered by our fighters?" After all, as a result we suffer losses.

Remember downed in November 2015, the Turkish F-16 our su-24? After all, one of the main reasons for this is that no one warned the crew about the presence and possible attack by its Turkish fighter in the vicinity due to the lack of control of airspace in the area and due to this our bomber was not covered by fighters, when it needed such a protection.

And yesterday's death of Il-20 and 14 people of his crew? Today, the Russian defense Ministry tells us tales that Israeli fighters hided in a radar footprint of Il-20, attacking Latakia, and so the Syrians shot down our plane. Why wasn't the Il-20 was not protected by our fighters?

Why was there no control of airspace over the Mediterranean sea? Why Israeli fighter were not discovered, why the Fight control center did not issue the command to the crew of the Il-20 immediately go in the direction of the Cyprus and wit for then of Israeli attack?

Yes, periodically A-50 appear in Syria. But only periodically. And because of this, our planes are shot down and pilots are killed.

Why today our "partners" are armed with weapons of the XXI century, and we are forced to look at it with envy and use the methods of detection of air targets used in 40-50th of the last century?

Who of our military leaders was responsible for the death of Oleg Peshkov in November 2015? Which of them will be responsible for yesterday's death of 14 Il-20 crew?

Unfortunately, apart from the next victorious speeches about the world's best weapons and the world's strongest army, about the victory over terrorism on the far borders, we are unlikely to hear anything.

Source: Victor Alksnis's Blog

[Sep 25, 2018] USA/Israel/NATO would love for Russia to lash out against Israel for a provocation such as this Ilyushin 20 downing; but as the author suggests Russia knows it could not withstand the combined forces of NATO/Israel/USA in the Syrian theatre. Russia would not stand a chance.

Sep 25, 2018 | www.unz.com

Uncle Sam

If Russia shot down Israeli aircraft or bombed the airbase from which they took off, or even obliterated Israel, America would do nothing but bitch and complain. The American military does not want a war with Russia, because they know they cannot win a conventional war with Russia. I would go so far as to say that even if Russia sank American warships including an aircraft carrier America would not go to war.

America does not go to war with countries that have nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them to the continental United States. That is why she would bend over backwards to prevent a war with countries like Russia, China or North Korea, and the reason these countries need not fear America. The prevention of nuclear war is the underlying premise of American foreign policy. It has been since the nuclear age began. America would only use its nuclear weapons if the American mainland is hit with nuclear weapons.

America would accept the loss of hundreds or even thousands of its servicemen rather than have the continental USA turned into a wasteland.

Deschutes , says: September 25, 2018 at 10:24 am GMT

Sorry, not so sure I'd agree. USA/Israel/NATO would love for Russia to lash out against Israel for a provocation such as this Ilyushin 20 downing; but as the author suggests Russia knows it could not withstand the combined forces of NATO/Israel/USA in the Syrian theatre. Russia would not stand a chance.

I would agree with you that the USA has historically only attacked much weaker foes: Viet Nam, Iraq, Libya, Syria etc. But recently there has been a shift in US military I've read about, i.e. revisionist powers are now the main focus instead of 'war on terror'. With the stranglehold 'declare war!' sanctions USA will crush Iran with this November, it means that there will most definitely be ensuing hot war with Iran, probably early next year. What happened to Syria will next happen in Iran.

Once Iran is reduced to rubble with US/Israel trained and equipped ISIS proxy armies, the US and NATO will start destabilising actions along Russia's southern borders, i.e. Caspian Sea and Georgia. Their plan is to use the same Arab Islamist proxies and/or Chechen Arabs to start terror attacks in souther Russian provinces, i.e. Grozny, Derbent, Dagestan oblast. USA/NATO/Israel will try to chip away at Russia's southern provinces using same methods used in Syria, weaken and balkanize it. This is why Putin is trying so hard to stop them in Syria.

[Sep 25, 2018] Russia had rejected the request by Israel for the bombing raid near Latakia. Seems Netanyahou decided to ignore Russia and go ahead with the mission

Sep 25, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

Brad allen , Sep 24, 2018 7:20:47 AM | link

What seems very significant, apart from this long late upgrade to Syrian air defenses, is news from the area that Russia had rejected the request by Israel for the bombing raid near Latakia. Seems Netanyahou decided to ignore Russia and go ahead with the mission. This could be very significant in changing rules of cooperation between them.

[Sep 25, 2018] The Path to World War III by Philip Giraldi

Notable quotes:
"... "from which weapons-manufacturing systems were supposed to be transferred to Iran and Hezbollah." ..."
"... The Israelis for their part were using four F-16 fighter bombers to stage a surprise night attack on several sites near Latakia, close to the airbase being used by the Russians. They came in from the Mediterranean Sea and clearly were using the Russian plane to mask their approach as the Ilyushin 20 would have presented a much larger radar profile for the air defenses. The radar systems on the F-16s would also have clearly seen the Russian plane. ..."
"... There was also a back story. The Israelis and Russian military had established a hotline, similar to the one that is used with the U.S. command in Syria, precisely intended to avoid incidents like the Ilyushin shoot-down that might escalate into a more major conflict. Israel reportedly used the line but only one minute before the incident took place, leaving no time for the Russian plane to take evasive action. ..."
"... The Russian Ministry of Defense was irate. It saw the exploitation of the intelligence plane by the Israelis as a deliberate high-risk initiative. It warned "We consider these provocative actions by Israel as hostile. Fifteen Russian military service members have died because of the irresponsible actions of the Israeli military. This is absolutely contrary to the spirit of the Russian-Israeli partnership. We reserve the right for an adequate response." ..."
"... Aggressive war directed at a non-threatening country is the ultimate war crime as defined by the Nuremberg Tribunals that followed after the Second World War, yet the United States and its poodles Britain and France have not so much as squeaked when Israel kills civilians and soldiers in its surprise attacks against targets that it alone frequently claims to be linked to the Iranians. Washington would not be in much of a position to cast the first stone anyway, as it is in Syria illegally, bombs targets regularly, to include two major cruise missile strikes, and, on at least one occasion, set a trap that reportedly succeeded in killing a large number of Russian mercenaries fighting on the Syrian government side. ..."
"... There is, of course, an alternative explanation for the Israeli action. Netanyahu might have considered it all a win-win either way, with the Russian plane masking and enabling the Israeli attack without consequence for Israel or, perversely, producing an incident inviting retaliation from Moscow, which would likely lead to a shooting war with the United States after it inevitably steps in to support Israel's government. In either case, the chaos in Syria that Israel desires would continue and even worsen but there would also be the potential danger of a possible expansion of the war as a consequence, making it regional or even broader. ..."
"... It's the same old story. Israel does risky things like attacking its neighbors because it knows it will pay no price due to Washington's support. The downing of the Russian plane through Israeli contrivance created a situation that could easily have escalated into a war involving Moscow and Washington. What Israel is really thinking when it seeks to create anarchy all around its borders is anyone's guess, but it is, to be sure, in no one's interest to allow the process to continue. It is past time for Donald Trump to fulfill his campaign promise to pull the plug on American engagement in Syria and terminate the seemingly endless cycle of wars in the Middle East. ..."
"... Syria and Israel are still "officially" at war. No peace treaty has ever been signed between them after the 1973 war. ..."
"... Bolton and Pompeo have really excelled themselves over this. Been almost a blackout on reporting over this, at least after initial reporting of the incident. A major world leader slapping down Israel is not something the media wish people to see, might get the wrong idea. ..."
"... Not only that, but the IDF LIED to Russia, stating they were going to attack targets in N. Syria, not around Latakia. ..."
"... It appears that French frigate did fire on Syria, in the hopes that Russia would respond, then Macaroni would cry out to NATO for help under Article 5, which says, "An attack against one is an attack against all" and off we'd go to who knows where, maybe WWIII. ..."
"... How, I asked Fort Russ to explain, did the monsieurs on the French tin can know that Russia wouldn't shoot back and send them all to Davy Jones' Locker? Fort Russ' response? It deleted my comment rather than defend its claim. I'm through with Fort Russ. ..."
"... Trump's infamous campaign slogan of MAGA quickly mutated into MIGA which is the originally intended version anyways. ..."
"... France a real FUKUS country ( France -UK-US ) ..."
"... The French destroyed Libia https://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/06/28/hillary-libya/ ..."
"... There are French colonial troops in 5 african countries https://www.businessinsider.com/frances-military-is-all-over-africa-2015-1?IR=T ..."
"... France steals about 400.000 million euros per year from African ex-colonies with their currency, the CFA franc ( Communnaute Francophone Africaine, currency ) https://africasacountry.com/2018/06/its-time-to-end-the-cfa-franc ..."
"... Never underestimate French colonialism ..."
"... One might as well ask, why were the French on the scene in the first place? In the scenario being discussed here, the French did not shoot for self defence, but because they were told to. Macron would be the perfect lapdog for the job. I agree Macron being the perfect lapdog for the job. I nevertheless find the scenario on Fort-Russ unlikely because of the relative positions of the actors, if they were their true positions, when the Russian plane was hit. ..."
Sep 25, 2018 | www.unz.com

Israel is, of course, claiming innocence , that it was the Syrians who shot down the Russian aircraft while the Israeli jets were legitimately targeting a Syrian army facility "from which weapons-manufacturing systems were supposed to be transferred to Iran and Hezbollah." Seeking to undo some of the damage caused, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu quickly telephoned Russian President Vladimir Putin to express his condolences. He also sent his air force chief to Russia on Thursday to provide a detailed report on what had occurred from the Israeli perspective.

But that story, however it will be spun, is inevitably only part of the tale. The narrative of what occurred is by now well established. The Russian aircraft was returning to base after a mission over the Mediterranean off the Syrian coast monitoring the activities of a French warship and at least one British RAF plane. As a large and relatively slow propeller driven aircraft on a routine intelligence gathering mission, the Ilyushin 20 had no reason to conceal its presence. It was apparently preparing to land at its airbase at Khmeimim in Syria when the incident took place. It may or may not have had its transponder on, which would signal to the Syrian air defenses that it was a "friendly."

Syrian air defenses were on high alert because Israel had attacked targets near Damascus on the previous day. On that occasion a Boeing 747 on the ground that Israel claimed was transporting weapons was the target. One should note in passing that Israeli claims about what it is targeting in Syria are never independently verifiable.

The Israelis for their part were using four F-16 fighter bombers to stage a surprise night attack on several sites near Latakia, close to the airbase being used by the Russians. They came in from the Mediterranean Sea and clearly were using the Russian plane to mask their approach as the Ilyushin 20 would have presented a much larger radar profile for the air defenses. The radar systems on the F-16s would also have clearly seen the Russian plane.

The Israelis might have been expecting that the Syrians would not fire at all at the incoming planes knowing that one of them at least was being flown by their Russian allies. If that was the expectation, it proved wrong and it was indeed a Syrian S-200 ground to air missile directed by its guidance system to the larger target that brought down the plane and killed its fourteen crew members. The Israelis completed their bombing run and flew back home. There were also reports that the French frigate offshore fired several missiles during the exchange, but they have not been confirmed while the British plane was also reportedly circling out of range though within the general area.

There was also a back story. The Israelis and Russian military had established a hotline, similar to the one that is used with the U.S. command in Syria, precisely intended to avoid incidents like the Ilyushin shoot-down that might escalate into a more major conflict. Israel reportedly used the line but only one minute before the incident took place, leaving no time for the Russian plane to take evasive action.

The Russian Ministry of Defense was irate. It saw the exploitation of the intelligence plane by the Israelis as a deliberate high-risk initiative. It warned "We consider these provocative actions by Israel as hostile. Fifteen Russian military service members have died because of the irresponsible actions of the Israeli military. This is absolutely contrary to the spirit of the Russian-Israeli partnership. We reserve the right for an adequate response."

Russian President Vladimir Putin was more conciliatory , saying the incident was a "chain of tragic circumstances." He contrasted it with the Turkish shoot-down of a Russian warplane in 2015, which was planned and deliberate, noting that Israel had not actually attacked the Ilyushin. Though the Putin comments clearly recognize that his country's relationship with Israel is delicate to say the least, that does not mean that he will do nothing.

Many Israelis are emigres from Russia and there are close ties between the two countries, but their views on Syria diverge considerably. As much as Putin might like to strike back at Israel in a hard, substantive way, he will likely only upgrade and strengthen the air defenses around Russian troop concentrations and warn that another "surprise" attack will be resisted. Unfortunately, he knows that he is substantially outgunned locally by the U.S., France, Britain and Israel, not to mention Turkey, and a violent response that would escalate the conflict is not in his interest. He has similarly, in cooperation with his Syrian allies, delayed a major attempt to retake terrorist controlled Idlib province, as he works out a formula with Ankara to prevent heavy handed Turkish intervention.

But there is another dimension to the story that the international media has largely chosen to ignore. And that is that Israel is now carrying out almost daily air attacks on Syria, over 200 in the past 18 months, a country with which it is not at war and which has not attacked it or threatened it in any way. It justifies the attacks by claiming that they are directed against Iran or Hezbollah, not at Syria itself. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has insisted that any peace settlement in Syria include the complete removal of Iranians, a demand that has also been repeated by the United States, which is also calling for the end to the Bashar al-Assad government and its replacement by something more "democratic."

Aggressive war directed at a non-threatening country is the ultimate war crime as defined by the Nuremberg Tribunals that followed after the Second World War, yet the United States and its poodles Britain and France have not so much as squeaked when Israel kills civilians and soldiers in its surprise attacks against targets that it alone frequently claims to be linked to the Iranians. Washington would not be in much of a position to cast the first stone anyway, as it is in Syria illegally, bombs targets regularly, to include two major cruise missile strikes, and, on at least one occasion, set a trap that reportedly succeeded in killing a large number of Russian mercenaries fighting on the Syrian government side.

And then there is the other dimension of Israeli interference with its neighbors, the secret wars in which it supports the terrorist groups operating in Syria as well as in Iran. The Netanyahu government has armed the terrorists operating in Syria and even treated them in Israeli hospitals when they get wounded. On one occasion when ISIS accidentally fired into Israeli-held territory on the Golan Heights it subsequently apologized. So, if you ask who is supporting terrorism the answer first and foremost should be Israel, but Israel pays no price for doing so because of the protection afforded by Washington, which, by the way, is also protecting terrorists.

There is, of course, an alternative explanation for the Israeli action. Netanyahu might have considered it all a win-win either way, with the Russian plane masking and enabling the Israeli attack without consequence for Israel or, perversely, producing an incident inviting retaliation from Moscow, which would likely lead to a shooting war with the United States after it inevitably steps in to support Israel's government. In either case, the chaos in Syria that Israel desires would continue and even worsen but there would also be the potential danger of a possible expansion of the war as a consequence, making it regional or even broader.

It's the same old story. Israel does risky things like attacking its neighbors because it knows it will pay no price due to Washington's support. The downing of the Russian plane through Israeli contrivance created a situation that could easily have escalated into a war involving Moscow and Washington. What Israel is really thinking when it seeks to create anarchy all around its borders is anyone's guess, but it is, to be sure, in no one's interest to allow the process to continue. It is past time for Donald Trump to fulfill his campaign promise to pull the plug on American engagement in Syria and terminate the seemingly endless cycle of wars in the Middle East.

Philip M. Giraldi, Ph.D., is Executive Director of the Council for the National Interest, a 501(c)3 tax deductible educational foundation that seeks a more interests-based U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East. Website is www.councilforthenationalinterest.org, address is P.O. Box 2157, Purcellville VA 20134 and its email is inform@cnionline.org .


ValmMond , says: September 25, 2018 at 5:14 am GMT

"a country with which it is not at war"

Syria and Israel are still "officially" at war. No peace treaty has ever been signed between them after the 1973 war.

Harold Smith , says: September 25, 2018 at 5:32 am GMT
"It is past time for Donald Trump to fulfill his campaign promise to pull the plug on American engagement in Syria and terminate the seemingly endless cycle of wars in the Middle East."

Orange Clown's a liar whose presidential campaign was a calculated bait and switch fraud from the beginning. Our presidential poseur obviously had no intention of following through on most of his pre-election intimations and campaign promises.

Anon , [629] Disclaimer says: September 25, 2018 at 5:47 am GMT
Syria refused "land for peace" initiative in 1967 where it would get back Golan in return for peace. They never established diplomatic relations and are technically in the state of war.
Ronald Thomas West , says: Website September 25, 2018 at 5:58 am GMT
"The downing of the Russian plane through Israeli contrivance created a situation that could easily have escalated into a war involving Moscow and Washington"

I don't doubt Israeli contrivance but I expect there is possibly a wider contrivance involving Netanyahu's poodle Macron:

https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/full-analysis-russian-disinfo-campaign-blames-israel-for-il-20-plane-downing-yet-exonerates-france/

Wizard of Oz , says: September 25, 2018 at 6:34 am GMT
@Anon Syria refused "land for peace" initiative in 1967 where it would get back Golan in return for peace. They never established diplomatic relations and are technically in the state of war. Which raises a couple of questions. One is whether the deal is still open. Another is why a secular régime in Syria, like that of Assad, would not recognise Israel now in return for something substantial which might be money rather than territory.
Colin Wright , says: Website September 25, 2018 at 6:36 am GMT
@Anon

Syria refused "land for peace" initiative in 1967 where it would get back Golan in return for peace. They never established diplomatic relations and are technically in the state of war. 'Syria refused "land for peace" initiative in 1967 where it would get back Golan in return for peace '

Uh huh. Hey, look. The Zionist lied. I'll be. https://www.thedailybeast.com/no-israel-didnt-offer-to-trade-the-west-bank-for-peace-in-1967

jilles dykstra , says: September 25, 2018 at 7:53 am GMT
@Anon

Syria refused "land for peace" initiative in 1967 where it would get back Golan in return for peace.

They never established diplomatic relations and are technically in the state of war. Moshe Dayan, in an interview with an Israeli paper, stated that 95% of border incidents with Syria were deliberately provoked by Israel

jilles dykstra , says: September 25, 2018 at 7:55 am GMT
@Ronald Thomas West

"The downing of the Russian plane through Israeli contrivance created a situation that could easily have escalated into a war involving Moscow and Washington"

I don't doubt Israeli contrivance but I expect there is possibly a wider contrivance involving Netanyahu's poodle Macron:

https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/full-analysis-russian-disinfo-campaign-blames-israel-for-il-20-plane-downing-yet-exonerates-france/

&

https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/more-experts-confirm-that-france-took-down-il-20-identify-friend-foe-system-did-not-fail/

&

https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/major-russia-defies-israel-to-now-supply-s-300-to-syria/

Thought provoking material from Joaquin Flores at Ft Russ News. Was it actually the French? Macron worked for Banque de Rothschild in Paris

Vojkan , says: September 25, 2018 at 8:13 am GMT
@Ronald Thomas West

"The downing of the Russian plane through Israeli contrivance created a situation that could easily have escalated into a war involving Moscow and Washington"

I don't doubt Israeli contrivance but I expect there is possibly a wider contrivance involving Netanyahu's poodle Macron:

https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/full-analysis-russian-disinfo-campaign-blames-israel-for-il-20-plane-downing-yet-exonerates-france/

&

https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/more-experts-confirm-that-france-took-down-il-20-identify-friend-foe-system-did-not-fail/

&

https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/major-russia-defies-israel-to-now-supply-s-300-to-syria/

Thought provoking material from Joaquin Flores at Ft Russ News. Was it actually the French? The Auvergne frigate is an anti-submarine ship equipped with surface-to-air missiles for self-defence Aster 15, with a range of max 30 km. Unless the French have modified it in the mean time, which is unlikely since it was launched too recently for that in my opinion, in 2015, to turn it in an air-defence ship equipped with the more advanced Aster 30 missiles, with a range of 100-120 km, I doubt they were within striking distance of the IL-20 when it was hit. On the other hand, it is possible that they have participated in the Israeli attack against Syria, given that they're equipped with cruise missiles and that ships of the same class have participated in previous attacks against Syria.

Anyway, I don't think it is wise of Russia to play down French involvement for the sake of Russian-French relationship. France under Macron is a shit country but the French are too vain to admit that they have elected a complete moron as president. There is no comparison with Erdogan's Turkey. Erdogan has way more substance than the Rotschild puppet Macron.

LondonBob , says: September 25, 2018 at 8:18 am GMT
Bolton and Pompeo have really excelled themselves over this. Been almost a blackout on reporting over this, at least after initial reporting of the incident. A major world leader slapping down Israel is not something the media wish people to see, might get the wrong idea.
Ronald Thomas West , says: Website September 25, 2018 at 9:21 am GMT
@Vojkan

The Auvergne frigate is an anti-submarine ship equipped with surface-to-air missiles for self-defence Aster 15, with a range of max 30 km. Unless the French have modified it in the mean time, which is unlikely since it was launched too recently for that in my opinion, in 2015, to turn it in an air-defence ship equipped with the more advanced Aster 30 missiles, with a range of 100-120 km, I doubt they were within striking distance of the IL-20 when it was hit. On the other hand, it is possible that they have participated in the Israeli attack against Syria, given that they're equipped with cruise missiles and that ships of the same class have participated in previous attacks against Syria.

Anyway, I don't think it is wise of Russia to play down French involvement for the sake of Russian-French relationship. France under Macron is a shit country but the French are too vain to admit that they have elected a complete moron as president. There is no comparison with Erdogan's Turkey. Erdogan has way more substance than the Rotschild puppet Macron.

Erdogan is a paranoid criminal who has back-stabbed every player he's ever done business with not to mention his intelligence chief, Hakan Fidan, is an alumnus of the Turkish branch of al-Qaida. Head and shoulders above Macron? I suppose that's possible

animalogic , says: September 25, 2018 at 9:52 am GMT
@Uncle Sam

If Russia shot down Israeli aircraft or bombed the airbase from which they took off, or even obliterated Israel, America would do nothing but bitch and complain. The American military does not want a war with Russia, because they know they cannot win a conventional war with Russia. I would go so far as to say that even if Russia sank American warships including an aircraft carrier America would not go to war.

America does not go to war with countries that have nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them to the continental United States. That is why she would bend over backwards to prevent a war with countries like Russia, China or North Korea, and the reason these countries need not fear America. The prevention of nuclear war is the underlying premise of American foreign policy. It has been since the nuclear age began. America would only use its nuclear weapons if the American mainland is hit with nuclear weapons.

America would accept the loss of hundreds or even thousands of its servicemen rather than have the continental USA turned into a wasteland. I'm inclined to agree with your assessment of US unwillingness to fight a nuclear power, but .I also can't forget that the US ruling elites are pathological. Psychotic with hubris, greed & egoism. The "exceptional", the "indispensable" nation .& worse, the wagging dog to the Israeli tail.

steinbergfeldwtizcohen , says: September 25, 2018 at 10:28 am GMT
Israel has Zero goodwill. They are a pariah nation. I'm sure that will be interesting to watch as U.S. power evaporates. It proves to me that hubris overwhelms strategy; the Jews are the architects of their own destruction.
Vojkan , says: September 25, 2018 at 11:03 am GMT
@Ronald Thomas West

My understanding is the Auvergne class frigate has Aster 30 capability from launch, depending on the configuration ... retrofit would only be necessary in case it had not been initially equipped - In the French denomination, the Auvergne is a FREMM, anti-submarine, not FREDA, air-defence. The French FREMM, if the French MoD doesn't lie, is equipped with 16 missiles Aster 15 for self-defence. The FREDAs are equipped with 16 more missiles Aster 30. Let's say that the Auvergne is in fact equipped with Aster 30 instead of Aster 15 missiles, I say instead because there would be little room left for its alleged main capabilities if equipped with both, the likelihood that the French would fire one at a Russian reconnaissance plane is still less than the plane being hit by mistake by Syrian air-defence.

Why would the French down a distant slow moving Russian reconnaissance plane? It would make sense if the plane was much closer to the Auvergne, in which case an Aster 15 would have done the job. The thing is that it seems that as much as the Il-20 was between the Syrians and the Israelis, Israelis were between the French and the Russian plane.

Unless the French and the Israeli hardware are fully integrated, you have to have a hell of a confidence in your stuff to fire a missile to down the Russian plane in such circumstances. Though the Aster 30 has vertical launch and anything is possible. I can be wrong but I just find it unlikely.

Greg Bacon , says: Website September 25, 2018 at 11:05 am GMT

The Israelis for their part were using four F-16 fighter bombers to stage a surprise night attack on several sites near Latakia, close to the airbase being used by the Russians.

Not only that, but the IDF LIED to Russia, stating they were going to attack targets in N. Syria, not around Latakia.

It appears that French frigate did fire on Syria, in the hopes that Russia would respond, then Macaroni would cry out to NATO for help under Article 5, which says, "An attack against one is an attack against all" and off we'd go to who knows where, maybe WWIII.

Israel needs to be dis-armed of its NBC arsenal; nukes, biological and chemical weapons, which they will deny having, but as usual, it's just another LIE coming from a nation filled with religious zealots who think some G-d they created will protect them from nuclear bursts and that they have the G-d given right to kill any Gentile they want, w/o repercussions.

Vojkan , says: September 25, 2018 at 11:09 am GMT
@Ronald Thomas West

Erdogan is a paranoid criminal who has back-stabbed every player he's ever done business with ... not to mention his intelligence chief, Hakan Fidan, is an alumnus of the Turkish branch of al-Qaida. Head and shoulders above Macron? I suppose that's possible...

And Macron is an egomaniac with and Oedipus complex who oftens makes non-sensical sentences that send his admirers into trance. The only plus of Macron compared to Erdogan is that he knows his masters. The down side is that he doesn't know his own country, while Erdogan does. So yes, it is possible.

Fiendly Neighbourhood Terrorist , says: Website September 25, 2018 at 11:27 am GMT
@Ronald Thomas West

"The downing of the Russian plane through Israeli contrivance created a situation that could easily have escalated into a war involving Moscow and Washington"

I don't doubt Israeli contrivance but I expect there is possibly a wider contrivance involving Netanyahu's poodle Macron:

https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/full-analysis-russian-disinfo-campaign-blames-israel-for-il-20-plane-downing-yet-exonerates-france/

&

https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/more-experts-confirm-that-france-took-down-il-20-identify-friend-foe-system-did-not-fail/

&

https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/major-russia-defies-israel-to-now-supply-s-300-to-syria/

Thought provoking material from Joaquin Flores at Ft Russ News. Was it actually the French? I left a response on the Fort Russ article asking them to explain exactly why French naval personnel would wish to sacrifice their lives for the greater glory of the gerontophiliac juvenile war criminal in Paris.

How, I asked Fort Russ to explain, did the monsieurs on the French tin can know that Russia wouldn't shoot back and send them all to Davy Jones' Locker? Fort Russ' response? It deleted my comment rather than defend its claim. I'm through with Fort Russ.

KenH , says: September 25, 2018 at 11:31 am GMT
The Nuremberg standard was only set up to be used against goyim and goy nations who don't have Jewish occupation governments. Israel must be pretty stupid as if wider, regional war breaks out then Tel Aviv should be considered a legitimate target and in the event of a nuclear war no doubt Russia has nukes destined for Tel Aviv and rightly so.
Fiendly Neighbourhood Terrorist , says: Website September 25, 2018 at 11:38 am GMT
@Justsaying

Trump's infamous campaign slogan of MAGA quickly mutated into MIGA which is the originally intended version anyways. Obedience to Israel has become a norm in presidential election campaigns. Even the disenfranchised minority caucuses, including and especially the Black one is firmly in Israel's pockets now. The Black leadership role has now been essentially reduced to making the odd noise after the shooting of an unarmed Black by a White cop.

"The Black leadership role has now been essentially reduced to making the odd noise after the shooting of an unarmed Black by a White cop."

As a brown person in Asia I grew up inculcated with the idea that I must always be in solidarity with black people in America and they would be with me (it was the 1970s, Malcolm X was still a fresh memory, Muhammad Ali still strode the scene like a colossus, and Martin Luther King Jr was still thought of as a hero in most circles).

Today, black Americans are people so wallowing in self abnegation that they mass voted for the racist war criminal Killary Clinton, owing to whose actions black people in America were incarcerated in hitherto unknown numbers; due to whose crimes black people in Haiti were looted to destitution; because of whom black people in Libya are literally being sold as slaves. Black Americans parade around saying "black lives matter", but are more than happy voting for war criminals who loot Haitian blacks, enslave Libyan blacks, massacre Somali blacks, deprive Sudanese blacks of life saving drugs, and plot to imperialistically occupy Africa, a continent of black people. Forget about us brown people, to American blacks in 2018, black lives do *not* matter.

Only virtue signalling and tribal identity matters. Nothing else.

Malcolm X would spit on them.

Mike P , says: September 25, 2018 at 12:02 pm GMT
@Vojkan In the French denomination, the Auvergne is a FREMM, anti-submarine, not FREDA, air-defence. The French FREMM, if the French MoD doesn't lie, is equipped with 16 missiles Aster 15 for self-defence. The FREDAs are equipped with 16 more missiles Aster 30. Let's say that the Auvergne is in fact equipped with Aster 30 instead of Aster 15 missiles, I say instead because there would be little room left for its alleged main capabilities if equipped with both, the likelihood that the French would fire one at a Russian reconnaissance plane is still less than the plane being hit by mistake by Syrian air-defence. Why would the French down a distant slow moving Russian reconnaissance plane? It would make sense if the plane was much closer to the Auvergne, in which case an Aster 15 would have done the job. The thing is that it seems that as much as the Il-20 was between the Syrians and the Israelis, Israelis were between the French and the Russian plane. Unless the French and the Israeli hardware are fully integrated, you have to have a hell of a confidence in your stuff to fire a missile to down the Russian plane in such circumstances. Though the Aster 30 has vertical launch and anything is possible. I can be wrong but I just find it unlikely.

Why would the French down a distant slow moving Russian reconnaissance plane?

One might as well ask, why were the French on the scene in the first place?

In the scenario being discussed here, the French did not shoot for self defence, but because they were told to. Macron would be the perfect lapdog for the job.

Respect , says: September 25, 2018 at 12:58 pm GMT
@Fiendly Neighbourhood Terrorist

I left a response on the Fort Russ article asking them to explain exactly why French naval personnel would wish to sacrifice their lives for the greater glory of the gerontophiliac juvenile war criminal in Paris. How, I asked Fort Russ to explain, did the monsieurs on the French tin can know that Russia wouldn't shoot back and send them all to Davy Jones' Locker?

Fort Russ' response? It deleted my comment rather than defend its claim.

I'm through with Fort Russ.

Never underestimate colonialist France .

France a real FUKUS country ( France -UK-US )

Ronald Thomas West , says: Website September 25, 2018 at 1:02 pm GMT
@Fiendly Neighbourhood Terrorist

I left a response on the Fort Russ article asking them to explain exactly why French naval personnel would wish to sacrifice their lives for the greater glory of the gerontophiliac juvenile war criminal in Paris. How, I asked Fort Russ to explain, did the monsieurs on the French tin can know that Russia wouldn't shoot back and send them all to Davy Jones' Locker?

Fort Russ' response? It deleted my comment rather than defend its claim.

I'm through with Fort Russ. Well, Bill, Russia practices entirely too much self-restraint to my taste too, but I suspect you underestimate the ego-priapism of the French (you should see the exaggerated 'packages' on the statues of their military heroes), it's not like that culture plays with a full deck or level mentality. Bottom line: Russia doesn't want World War III and the priss Gauls are perfectly willing to take advantage of that in the negative, you might better understand the Western gang mentality. Insofar as assigning a modicum of 'normalcy' (rationality) to the French militarist idiots, it'd be a mistake, they might notice they'd backed-buttocks into the nuclear launch button if you separated them from on-ship lover with a pry-bar. Sort of like Dien Bien Phu and catastrophic political-military miscalculation.

Gerontophiliac? Rumor has it rather Macron is in love with his Muslim beating bodyguard. The 'elderly' woman seems to be great cover

ISmellBagels , says: September 25, 2018 at 1:05 pm GMT
The Israelis using the hotline just a minute before the shoot down is very similar to when the yid army gives notice to a Palestinian family just a minute before blowing up their house. They think it's all funny.
Respect , says: September 25, 2018 at 1:33 pm GMT
The French destroyed Libia https://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/06/28/hillary-libya/

There are French colonial troops in 5 african countries https://www.businessinsider.com/frances-military-is-all-over-africa-2015-1?IR=T

France steals about 400.000 million euros per year from African ex-colonies with their currency, the CFA franc ( Communnaute Francophone Africaine, currency ) https://africasacountry.com/2018/06/its-time-to-end-the-cfa-franc

Never underestimate French colonialism .

annamaria , says: September 25, 2018 at 1:38 pm GMT
@Ronald Thomas West

Well, Bill, Russia practices entirely too much self-restraint to my taste too, but I suspect you underestimate the ego-priapism of the French (you should see the exaggerated 'packages' on the statues of their military heroes), it's not like that culture plays with a full deck or level mentality. Bottom line: Russia doesn't want World War III and the priss Gauls are perfectly willing to take advantage of that in the negative, you might better understand the Western gang mentality. Insofar as assigning a modicum of 'normalcy' (rationality) to the French militarist idiots, it'd be a mistake, they might notice they'd backed-buttocks into the nuclear launch button if you separated them from on-ship lover with a pry-bar. Sort of like Dien Bien Phu and catastrophic political-military miscalculation.

Gerontophiliac? Rumor has it rather Macron is in love with his Muslim beating bodyguard. The 'elderly' woman seems to be great cover... It is highly implausible that "Micron" has any power. The same can be said about the imbecile UK Parliament that allowed Mr. Gavin Williamson (a trained salesperson knowledgeable in fireplaces) to become a Secretary of Defence. Gavin's only virtue is his superb sensitivity to the needs of mega-war profiteers and the Friends of Israel in the UK.

Here is an analysis of the 9/17 event in Syria by Thierry Meyssan: http://www.voltairenet.org/article203086.html

20 September 2018: "The Chief of Staff for the Israëli Air Force, General Amikam Norkin, arrives in a hurry to present his version of events. Once these proofs were checked and compared with other recordings, it transpired that Israël was lying straight-faced."

"On 17 September 2018, France, Israël and the United Kingdom carried out a joint operation against Syrian targets.

1. A British Torpedo took off from Cyprus to land in Iraq. During the flight, it violated Syrian air space in order to scan the Syrian defences and make the allied attack possible.

2. Less than an hour later, four Israëli F-16s and a French frigate, L'Auvergne, fired on targets in the Syrian governorate of Lattakia. The Syrian air defences protected their country by firing their S-200s against the French and Israëli missiles.

3. During the battle, an F-16 used a Russian Ilyushin Il-20 as a shield.

The cowardice of the British and French leaders led them to censor all information concerning their responsibility in this operation . London made no comment, and Paris denied the facts. Neither the BBC, nor France-Television dared to mention the subject. For these two countries, more than ever, t he reality of external politics is excluded from the democratic debate.

In case the White House should find an acceptable narrative of the facts for its electors, Russia could forbid the United Kingdom, France and Israël from making any intrusion into the maritime, terrestrial and aerial space of Syria without the authorisation of Damascus.
London and Paris would have to cease their threats of bombing under whatever pretext at all (false chemical weapons) and withdraw their special forces. This measure would be valid for all protagonists in general, except for the United States and, in Idlib, for Turkey."

-- Neither the United Kingdom nor France nor Israël has a head of state. These states are indeed headless.

Vojkan , says: September 25, 2018 at 1:50 pm GMT
@Mike P
Why would the French down a distant slow moving Russian reconnaissance plane?
One might as well ask, why were the French on the scene in the first place? In the scenario being discussed here, the French did not shoot for self defence, but because they were told to. Macron would be the perfect lapdog for the job. I agree Macron being the perfect lapdog for the job. I nevertheless find the scenario on Fort-Russ unlikely because of the relative positions of the actors, if they were their true positions, when the Russian plane was hit.
Jean de Peyrelongue , says: Website September 25, 2018 at 1:56 pm GMT
Russia's MOD story is clear: the IL-20 had been flying around Idlib and was coming back when 4 fighters from Israel bombed Latakia and having accomplished their mission and also noticed of the incoming IL-20, instead of running away, decided to stay around for another objective. One of the fighter came close to the IL-20 which was going to land, and he gave him the "Judas' kiss" calling for the Syrian DCA to shoot down the IL-20.

It was not an accident, it was a pre-planned murder: Note that the Syrian DCA became ready only 10′ after the bombing of Lattakia and that the israelis had plenty of time to run away.

It would be interesting to know if these fighters communicate with Israel before deciding to carry out this murder.

I am glad to see that Russia is not behaving like the US when the USS Liberty was attacked by Israel. By deciding to send the S300 to Syria , improved their communication system and jammed airplanes communication systems when attacking Syria, Russia is giving an appropriate answer which is going to improve drastically the defense capabilities of Syria and "cooled some aggressive hot heads".

[Sep 25, 2018] Consequences - TTG

Notable quotes:
"... VV Putin and S Shoigu have quickly and calmly moved to insure that another incident like the IL-20 shoot down does not occur again. After laying the blame for the incident squarely on Israel, both men announced Syria will receive a major upgrade to their air defense system. Russian will deliver S-300 systems to the Syrians within the next two weeks. ..."
"... In other developments, Russian Senator and former Air Force commander Viktor Bondarev announced the establishment of a no-fly zone in Latakia to prevent a repeat of the IL-20 aircraft tragedy. He added that "any unauthorized objects in the sky over Hmeimim Airport will definitely be eliminated." I'm sure that remark was meant for an Israeli audience. I'm also certain that VV Putin personally informed Netanyahu of this in one of their recent phone calls. ..."
"... In addition to the S-300s and no-fly zone, Russian radio electronic combat assets will suppress communications, radars and satellite navigation of any combat aircraft attacking targets in Syria. A Russian Su-35S has reportedly intercepted a US F-22 over Syria. Russian has also asked for permission to station fighters and bombers at the Nojeh Air Base in NW Iran. The bear is seriously pissed. ..."
"... We are unhappy because the Izzies are unhappy. ..."
Sep 25, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

VV Putin and S Shoigu have quickly and calmly moved to insure that another incident like the IL-20 shoot down does not occur again. After laying the blame for the incident squarely on Israel, both men announced Syria will receive a major upgrade to their air defense system. Russian will deliver S-300 systems to the Syrians within the next two weeks.

If Russia already has S-300 systems under their control in Syria, these systems will probably be turned over the Syrians and new Russian systems will be brought in. Otherwise, new systems will be flown in directly to the Syrians. I would think the former would be the most reasonable way to upgrade the Syrian air defense system within two weeks unless the Russian have already quietly flown them in. In either case, Russian technicians and trainer will surely work with their Syrian counterparts for well past the two weeks stated.

In other developments, Russian Senator and former Air Force commander Viktor Bondarev announced the establishment of a no-fly zone in Latakia to prevent a repeat of the IL-20 aircraft tragedy. He added that "any unauthorized objects in the sky over Hmeimim Airport will definitely be eliminated." I'm sure that remark was meant for an Israeli audience. I'm also certain that VV Putin personally informed Netanyahu of this in one of their recent phone calls.

In addition to the S-300s and no-fly zone, Russian radio electronic combat assets will suppress communications, radars and satellite navigation of any combat aircraft attacking targets in Syria. A Russian Su-35S has reportedly intercepted a US F-22 over Syria. Russian has also asked for permission to station fighters and bombers at the Nojeh Air Base in NW Iran. The bear is seriously pissed.

I guess we'll soon see if the Israelis are feeling froggy.

TTG

Laurent K , an hour ago

I don't know for the Israelians but US seems very unhappy with the decision:

https://www.washingtonpost....

Pat Lang Mod -> Laurent K , 11 minutes ago
We are unhappy because the Izzies are unhappy.

[Sep 25, 2018] Russia Beefs Up Syria's Air Defenses - Tells Hotheads To Cool Down

Notable quotes:
"... I think the second of your two proposals is much the most likely. ("They were waiting/hoping Russia/Syria would strike the French ship in which case they and the UK planes would attack, justifying a NATO full assault from the NATO ships in the Med and probably WW3.") ..."
"... The US had at least three Major destroyers, two nuclear subs and the "Truman" Aircraft carrier in the Med.The UK Tornados were airborne and so were (certainly) a bevy of US aircraft. ..."
"... I suspect the "scenario" was to have a Syrian missile "threaten" (fired at....) the French Frigate Auvergne, which would have been the excuse for a massive US/NATO/UK/Israeli attack on the Syrians. (but NOT necessarily the Russians, as this would have led to WWIII*** or IV). The French were sending up missiles for just this purpose. The Syrians had to be "seen" firing first at a NATO ship. The Russian Il-20 had to be eliminated as well as it might have picked up compromising proof of the NATO "plan". ..."
"... This is very close to the scenario several years ago, where the US force moved to the far end of the Med. and an Israeli plane fired two missile from behind them, towards Syria to provoke a Syrian response aimed at the US ships. The Russian Radars picked this up and loudly called the bluff. Israel then suddenly said that the missiles were "practice" and dropped them in the sea. ..."
"... What fascinates many analysts is the stubbornness and stupidity of US policy-makers. The more they try to prolong the US unipolar moment, the more incentive they give to other countries to jump on the multipolar bandwagon. ..."
"... Even countries that probably have deep ties with the United States on an oligarchic level will have no alternative other than to modify and redesign their strategic alliances over the next 30 years. The United States continues along the path of diplomatic arrogance and strategic stupidity, mired in a civil war among its elites, with no end in sight. ..."
"... Shoigu: "We're convinced that the implementation of these measures will cool down the hotheads and will prevent rash actions that might threaten our servicemen. If not, we'll be forced to react based on the evolving situation." ..."
"... I can't help thinking of that old US joke, only this time it's real: "The beatings will continue until morale improves." ..."
"... Bolton now says that the Outlaw US Empire will remain in Syria as long as Iranians are there. Well, numerous ethnic Iranians live within Syria. Given his attitude, you'd think he'd be clamoring for Iranians living within the Empire to be rounded up and sent to concentration camps. Bolton reminds me of McCarthy: Big mouth and booze-boosted courage 100% devoid of a morality or ethical principals. ..."
"... It was I believe of the assumption (early analyses of the event) scenario: actually a cruise missile being fired from a a sub, unidentified sub. and was reported from a Cypriot source If i do remember right (that all were the initial hours of the event) that later (after days) morphed in to air to ground being fired from Israel jets? ( I believe it was close to Christmass) ..."
"... So, basically Russian MoD claims that Israel AirForce DID NOT alerted Russia about their operation, that culminated in the misfortunate downing of Il-20. ..."
"... Answering to another poster about the flightradar apps. I wouldn't trust what CIA or DoD could/would and should have been using for propaganda purposes to mess, with evidence or to try to build false leads in trying to promote their narratives. Western sources are in question, as of course Eastern too. For instance Iran banned the Telegram app. according to them there was a version that was been used as a spy tool disguised as civilian application software. ..."
"... Russia declared NO FLY ZONE over LATAKIA ! https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/breaking-russia-establishes-no-fly-zone-over-latakia-province-diplomat/ Russia are slow to react , but they run Fast :)! ..."
"... funny how bolton never mentioned anything about israels responsibility for making war on syria...bombing buildings and accidentally or otherwise being directly responsible for the downing of IL-20 where 15 russians died seems not to even cross his mind...that is a vacuous mind indeed.. the hypocrisy is regularly on display from the usa.. if it isn't bolton, it is haley, or some other doofus, talking head from the usa.. ..."
"... an alternative speculation on this is the IL-20 had a lot of valuable intel data with it that was removed from the theatre.. that would suggest the act here on israels part was intentional.. i suspect it was an unintended accident, but one that has big ramifications for israel... i continue to believe we are ramping up to a major war and moving more and more in this direction.. this is another step in the same direction.. i also believe that russia sees it coming and is doing what it feels is the best they can do in this environment.. ..."
"... Shoigu says there will now be "centralised control over all of Syria's air defence facilities and capabilities, the monitoring of airspace and prompt targeting". ..."
"... In other words, Russia will be able to control who gets targeted and shot at. That might be what Israel wants. Russia ensures its planes don't get shot down and in return Israel knows their friend Russia has assumed centralized control over air defenses and they no longer have to worry about independently controlled Syrian missiles ..."
Sep 25, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

stonebird , Sep 24, 2018 2:52:46 PM | link

KarlofI@67--
Thanks
Frances @64

I think the second of your two proposals is much the most likely. ("They were waiting/hoping Russia/Syria would strike the French ship in which case they and the UK planes would attack, justifying a NATO full assault from the NATO ships in the Med and probably WW3.")

The US had at least three Major destroyers, two nuclear subs and the "Truman" Aircraft carrier in the Med.The UK Tornados were airborne and so were (certainly) a bevy of US aircraft.

I suspect the "scenario" was to have a Syrian missile "threaten" (fired at....) the French Frigate Auvergne, which would have been the excuse for a massive US/NATO/UK/Israeli attack on the Syrians. (but NOT necessarily the Russians, as this would have led to WWIII*** or IV). The French were sending up missiles for just this purpose. The Syrians had to be "seen" firing first at a NATO ship. The Russian Il-20 had to be eliminated as well as it might have picked up compromising proof of the NATO "plan".

This is very close to the scenario several years ago, where the US force moved to the far end of the Med. and an Israeli plane fired two missile from behind them, towards Syria to provoke a Syrian response aimed at the US ships. The Russian Radars picked this up and loudly called the bluff. Israel then suddenly said that the missiles were "practice" and dropped them in the sea.

*** I reckon we are IN WWIII as sanctions and asymetric warfare are ....warfare. So next is WWIV

karlof1 , Sep 24, 2018 2:54:18 PM | link

Federico Pieraccini provides an Autumnal Equinox update of the Big Picture situation, concluding:

"What fascinates many analysts is the stubbornness and stupidity of US policy-makers. The more they try to prolong the US unipolar moment, the more incentive they give to other countries to jump on the multipolar bandwagon.

"Even countries that probably have deep ties with the United States on an oligarchic level will have no alternative other than to modify and redesign their strategic alliances over the next 30 years. The United States continues along the path of diplomatic arrogance and strategic stupidity, mired in a civil war among its elites, with no end in sight."

It's UNGA time again, so we'll get to see the arrogance and stupidity play out in public.

Grieved , Sep 24, 2018 2:54:50 PM | link
Shoigu: "We're convinced that the implementation of these measures will cool down the hotheads and will prevent rash actions that might threaten our servicemen. If not, we'll be forced to react based on the evolving situation."

And it's a good time to remember that Russia always leads with its best terms. If forced to continue negotiating, the terms get increasingly tough.

~~

I can't help thinking of that old US joke, only this time it's real: "The beatings will continue until morale improves."

;)

karlof1 , Sep 24, 2018 4:36:52 PM | link
juliania @39--

I suspect Zionist arrogance never allowed them to even consider consequences as they'd gotten away with similar attacks. IMO, the Zionist act differed little from their targeted killings of Palestinian protesters in Gaza. This cartoon I found on Twitter is close to being correct. I said it was Russia's USS Liberty moment, but Russia's reaction wasn't anything like the bent-over passivity displayed by LBJ.

Bolton now says that the Outlaw US Empire will remain in Syria as long as Iranians are there. Well, numerous ethnic Iranians live within Syria. Given his attitude, you'd think he'd be clamoring for Iranians living within the Empire to be rounded up and sent to concentration camps. Bolton reminds me of McCarthy: Big mouth and booze-boosted courage 100% devoid of a morality or ethical principals.

Greece , Sep 24, 2018 4:37:38 PM | link
KarlofI@67--
Thanks
Frances @64
I think the second of your two proposals is much the most likely. ("They were waiting/hoping Russia/Syria would strike the French ship in which case they and the UK planes would attack, justifying a NATO full assault from the NATO ships in the Med and probably WW3.")

The US had at least three Major destroyers, two nuclear subs and the "Truman" Aircraft carrier in the Med.The UK Tornados were airborne and so were (certainly) a bevy of US aircraft.

I suspect the "scenario" was to have a Syrian missile "threaten" (fired at....) the French Frigate Auvergne, which would have been the excuse for a massive US/NATO/UK/Israeli attack on the Syrians. (but NOT necessarily the Russians, as this would have led to WWIII*** or IV). The French were sending up missiles for just this purpose. The Syrians had to be "seen" firing first at a NATO ship. The Russian Il-20 had to be eliminated as well as it might have picked up compromising proof of the NATO "plan".

This is very close to the scenario several years ago, where the US force moved to the far end of the Med. and an Israeli plane fired two missile from behind them, towards Syria to provoke a Syrian response aimed at the US ships. The Russian Radars picked this up and loudly called the bluff. Israel then suddenly said that the missiles were "practice" and dropped them in the sea.

*** I reckon we are IN WWIII as sanctions and asymetric warfare are ....warfare. So next is WWIV

Posted by: stonebird | Sep 24, 2018 2:52:46 PM | 72

Excellent find!

It was I believe of the assumption (early analyses of the event) scenario: actually a cruise missile being fired from a a sub, unidentified sub. and was reported from a Cypriot source If i do remember right (that all were the initial hours of the event) that later (after days) morphed in to air to ground being fired from Israel jets? ( I believe it was close to Christmass)

Also as a answer to what you mentioned above I also quote this post from another poster:

Russian MoD explicitly denies claims made earlier by Israeli MoD

"At 22:03 a Syrian anti-aircraft missile engaged a larger and closer target – Il-20 airplane. The commander reported on the fire on board and emergency descent. At 22:07 the Russian Il-20 survey airplane went off the radars. Meanwhile, the Israeli jets did not leave for their air space but stayed in the region and continued patrolling in the air till 22:40."

and "I would like to stress that during negotiations via the deconfliction channel, the representative of the Israeli Air Force Headquarters reported on the targets assigned to the Israeli aircraft in north Syria. The dialogue was held in Russian. The Russian Defence Ministry has a record of the talk.

.....

As you can see on the map, the Israeli jets delivered strikes not in the north of the Syrian Arab Republic but in Latakia region which is the western province of the country. Besides, the city of Latakia is located on the western coast."

So, basically Russian MoD claims that Israel AirForce DID NOT alerted Russia about their operation, that culminated in the misfortunate downing of Il-20.

Some other operation was announced, indeed. But not this one.

Now, that is quite a claim.

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 24, 2018 9:13:41 AM | 18

Ok, so now we have a clearer picture.

According to Russian MoD the IL20 since the first 7 or 10 minutes the Israeli group was "in the picture" it was already going down in flames hit by the S-200 at 22:07, which had already tracked the targets and fired upon at 22:03. Though the Israel group stayed "in the picture" at least until 22:40 , this time performing a second mission, of CAP, first one was probably a Strike mission to Syrian coasts. So this leads me to assume there were 4 MISSIONS in operation for the Israeli Air force or allies happening to be in the region. 1 Strike, 1 CAP, 1 a third party trying to remove evidence from the floating debri of the IL-20 (data modules/equipment etc) 4 another delivery mission to insert a sleeper package, right beneath Syrian defence noses and what would be (in a few minutes) the Russian SAR area in trying to acquire the parts of the downed plane.

The "sleeper" can always be something that can be activated at later dates. (IDF used to send artificial rocks that were hiding opto/aqustic equipment during Russian ships supply runs, during time Russians were trying to establish base at Latakia and israelis were trying to spy on the ships unloading stuff)

So in all I believe this was a calculated mission from Israel, not only to kill the IL20 but to establish other advantages during time of chos etc.
This is about the Israelis, do not trust them, even if they say the sun is shining outside you should go an check it out yourself.

Answering to another poster about the flightradar apps. I wouldn't trust what CIA or DoD could/would and should have been using for propaganda purposes to mess, with evidence or to try to build false leads in trying to promote their narratives. Western sources are in question, as of course Eastern too. For instance Iran banned the Telegram app. according to them there was a version that was been used as a spy tool disguised as civilian application software.

kemi , Sep 24, 2018 4:51:31 PM | link
Russia declared NO FLY ZONE over LATAKIA ! https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/breaking-russia-establishes-no-fly-zone-over-latakia-province-diplomat/ Russia are slow to react , but they run Fast :)!
james , Sep 24, 2018 6:24:20 PM | link
@80 juliania... you might be right and there was some direct connection to idlib, or the peace agreement turkey and russia reached just prior to this event.. i mostly think of it as a series of events where israel didn't foresee the end result... the term 'hothead' that i believe shoigu used in the past 24 hours as reason for deploying the s-300s, applies directly to israel as i see it..

meanwhile boltons comments.. "Russian plans to supply Syria with a S-300 missile system would be a "significant escalation" by Moscow, US National Security Advisor John Bolton said on Monday." https://www.rt.com/newsline/439235-us-bolton-russia-syria/

funny how bolton never mentioned anything about israels responsibility for making war on syria...bombing buildings and accidentally or otherwise being directly responsible for the downing of IL-20 where 15 russians died seems not to even cross his mind...that is a vacuous mind indeed.. the hypocrisy is regularly on display from the usa.. if it isn't bolton, it is haley, or some other doofus, talking head from the usa..

an alternative speculation on this is the IL-20 had a lot of valuable intel data with it that was removed from the theatre.. that would suggest the act here on israels part was intentional.. i suspect it was an unintended accident, but one that has big ramifications for israel... i continue to believe we are ramping up to a major war and moving more and more in this direction.. this is another step in the same direction.. i also believe that russia sees it coming and is doing what it feels is the best they can do in this environment..

@90 usa=isis..here is another article from smoothie today that you might want to read and consider...

http://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2018/09/fast-thoughts-on-issue-of-projection.html

uncle tungsten , Sep 24, 2018 7:08:59 PM | link
With one dopey, hubris driven blunder the israeli and yankee governments have lost the lot. Russia has grasped air dominance as a shield for Iran, Turkey, Lebanon, as well as Syria. The Russians have cemented the security of allies in the region. (Not that Turkey could see or appreciate that)

Now Iran has an advance proxy defence at the entire Syrian western border. Lebanon is no longer a permanent cringing victim and will find expansion and other changes in its public and political mind. Syria and Lebanon are no longer the captive of israeli predation as their airspace and seaspace are more secure.

The israelis and yankees will not stand for this as it has totally transformed the military theatre to their exclusion. Now Russia has visited on them the same medicine as they dish out on Russia's western border region. Watch for madness and histrionics and more blundering, stupidity.

Peter AU 1 , Sep 24, 2018 7:54:12 PM | link
S-400 to Syria, response to Turkey shooting down the SU-24.
S-300 to Tartus and upgrading and linking of Syrian systems to Russian command, response
to US attack threats at the time of the Aleppo offensive.
Now Russian spec S-300 spread throughout Syria as a response to latest US threats of attack and the Israeli downing of the IL-20.

Thinking about this, fast delivery of S-300 to Syria may have been decided on even before the downing of the IL-20. The short term deal with Erdogan giving time to get the extra S-300 systems in place before the main attack on Idlib occurs.

Pft , Sep 24, 2018 9:07:32 PM | link
Shoigu says there will now be "centralised control over all of Syria's air defence facilities and capabilities, the monitoring of airspace and prompt targeting".

In other words, Russia will be able to control who gets targeted and shot at. That might be what Israel wants. Russia ensures its planes don't get shot down and in return Israel knows their friend Russia has assumed centralized control over air defenses and they no longer have to worry about independently controlled Syrian missiles

That explains how quickly Russia was able to act and "suggests" perhaps a false flag forcing Syria to cede more control of its air defences to Russia ? It also explains why Russia is not worried about Israelis reponse to them giving Syria S300 since they will control targetting and can override Syrian operators.

Not married to this hypothesis , just throwing it out there

Yeah, Right , Sep 24, 2018 9:24:03 PM | link
@114 Frances. One possibility is that the Russians will ship in more S-400 for their own use, thereby allowing them to hand over existing S-300 installations to the Syrian Army.

That would allow for the "two week delivery" to the Syrians, since all they need to do is take the keys and drive the units out of the Russian base.

Note that if this is how the Russians do it then the Syrian S-300 will definitely be the non-export version.

frances , Sep 24, 2018 9:45:17 PM | link
reply to:

"That would allow for the "two week delivery" to the Syrians, since all they need to do is take the keys and drive the units out of the Russian base. Note that if this is how the Russians do it then the Syrian S-300 will definitely be the non-export version."

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Sep 24, 2018 9:24:03 PM | 116

You could be right re the systems, I do think the "two weeks" statement is the time frame in which the system will be live, not when they will be delivered.
Russia has no reason to trust Israel whatsoever, any time line would be misleading IMO.

[Sep 24, 2018] Not only Russian and (allegedly) Israeli and French aircraft and missiles were in the air. Civilian radar also tracked British Royal Air Force aircraft, which, unusually, had switched on their transponders and gone into holding patterns." If true, this strongly suggests a set-up and with NATO involvement

Notable quotes:
"... Exactly. It's obvious the Israelis intended for the French ship to be attacked, setting off god knows what chain of events. ..."
"... Israel is certainly responsible for precipitating the incident, but the accusations that Israel somehow purposely caused Syria to shoot down the airplane - as if the Syrians were helpless to prevent it - are without merit. ..."
"... Some salient facts: Syrian air defenses either knew the location of the Russian plane or they didn't. If they didn't know the plane was there, then that is a problem of coordination between Russian and Syrian military forces. Given that the Russian and Syrian AD networks are supposed to be integrated, I'd say this is the less likely option. If the Syrians did know the plane was there, then the Syrians are to blame for poor fire discipline and probably incompetence. Deliberately shooting at enemy aircraft when a friendly aircraft is in the line of fire is a big no no in air defense doctrine (and a big no no as a general rule for any use of force), especially with a weapon as unwieldy as an SA-5. ..."
"... The so-called integrated networks between the Russian and Syrian AD systems appears to have not been working. Or someone was asleep, or in panic, at one end. I vote for panic. Those Syrian missileers are under serious pressure by Assad to bring down an Israeli aircraft, which is probably affecting their nerves and their judgment. ..."
"... Does Israel really care? It seems that Bibi Netanyahu and Avigdor Lieberman believe they can act with impunity since no one has held them to account to date. ..."
"... Putin was explicit in his conversation with Bibi that Israel not only violates Syria's airspace but violated previous agreements with Russia on matters of attacking Syrian/Iranian targets. ..."
"... There will be consequences and Putin also was explicit today when stated that, and I quote, "everyone will notice them". While it is a sad day for Russia and is agony for families of the crew, it is also clear (and thank God) that France and her ship had no hand in it whatsoever. ..."
"... It seems to me that Putin's response was too 'soft'. Unlike Shoigu's. Perhaps there is some divergence between Russian political and military policies with regard to Israel. What happens as a result of this tragedy will clarify matters. Putin cannot afford to alienate his military (and thus the Russian people) for the sake of Israel. ..."
"... Right. One must ask why Putin is acting this way. He has actually taken Trump off the hook. If the offensive had gone in Trump would have been under a lot of pressure to take military action when the WH drama played out. ..."
"... The DMZ agreement prevents that, and now he takes this soft line over this bit of Israeli cleverness that cost Shoigu 14 men for no good reason, Curious. One might think he does not want to rock the boat before the mid term. ..."
"... Bingo! Plus a chance for Turkey to clean up her act a bit. It is a good old anecdote about two bulls (old and young) standing on the hill looking down at the cows' herd. ..."
"... IMO, the new deal between R+6 and Turkey on Idlib for time being is smart ..."
"... It's a salami slicing strategy VS. an open between R+6 and entire west while Turkey playing both sides and collect concessions. IMO R+6 can better afford buying time than the scarce resources while they all are under economic sanctions. ..."
"... A timeline of the Israeli F-16's actions that resulted in the downing of the IL-20 in Izvestia. It was completely intentional. The planes were within several hundred meters of each other. The Israeli's set up the IL-20 knowing beforehand it would be destroyed. https://iz.ru/790550/kirill... ..."
"... Yes. Anyone who wants to absolve the Israelis of guilt in this matter is just a sap. ..."
"... Perhaps in your time in Russia the Kremlin was a monolith. It doesn't seem so now, certainly as far as the expression of differing views are concerned (eg, Shoigu's vs Putin's). Such differing views, publicly expressed, do represent their institutions' views. I have no doubt that Russia's military is very unhappy with Israel's actions in this incident. And, would like to teach Israel a lesson. But they don't make policy (theirs is only one input), and they follow the policies ultimately decided by the state. ..."
"... I think there will be 'visible' changes to Russia's security posture in Syria, as Putin has unambiguously stated..and probably very quickly...the objective of those changes will be to minimize the potential of any such provocations succeeding going forward...the Israelis going forward will need to pull in their horns, and their media is already discussing this... ..."
"... There is a growing sentiment, that Russia is handling too softly the attacks on its armed forces. The lack of visible or spectacular retaliations, counteractions is making an impression of a very narrow set of choices in Russia's Syria policy. ..."
Sep 20, 2018 | disqus.com

John Gilberts 2 days ago ,

In reporting the shoot-down of the Russian IL-20, Harretz reported that "Not only Russian and (allegedly) Israeli and French aircraft and missiles were in the air. Civilian radar also tracked British Royal Air Force aircraft, which, unusually, had switched on their transponders and gone into holding patterns." If true, this strongly suggests a set-up and with NATO involvement.

Vicky SD John Gilberts 2 days ago ,

Exactly. It's obvious the Israelis intended for the French ship to be attacked, setting off god knows what chain of events.

Andy a day ago ,

Israel is certainly responsible for precipitating the incident, but the accusations that Israel somehow purposely caused Syria to shoot down the airplane - as if the Syrians were helpless to prevent it - are without merit.

Some salient facts: Syrian air defenses either knew the location of the Russian plane or they didn't. If they didn't know the plane was there, then that is a problem of coordination between Russian and Syrian military forces. Given that the Russian and Syrian AD networks are supposed to be integrated, I'd say this is the less likely option. If the Syrians did know the plane was there, then the Syrians are to blame for poor fire discipline and probably incompetence. Deliberately shooting at enemy aircraft when a friendly aircraft is in the line of fire is a big no no in air defense doctrine (and a big no no as a general rule for any use of force), especially with a weapon as unwieldy as an SA-5.

Eugene Owens Andy a day ago ,

Andy - Regarding IFF: Smoothie down below claims the Syrians were never given Russian IFF technology and codes.

But the two Russian-manned S-400 systems certainly had them. The so-called integrated networks between the Russian and Syrian AD systems appears to have not been working. Or someone was asleep, or in panic, at one end. I vote for panic. Those Syrian missileers are under serious pressure by Assad to bring down an Israeli aircraft, which is probably affecting their nerves and their judgment.

smoothieX12 . blue peacock 2 days ago ,

Does Israel really care? It seems that Bibi Netanyahu and Avigdor Lieberman believe they can act with impunity since no one has held them to account to date.

Yes she does, otherwise CO of IAF wouldn't have been on his way to Moscow and Bibi urgently calling Putin. Once one gets more complete details of the event, such as teeny-weeny fact of Russia not providing Syrian AD (and with a good reason) with own IFF technology and codes--things become much more clearer. This was confirmed today.

Of course military counter-intelligence still has to do its due diligence but it increasingly begins to look more as FUBAR rather than some "special" operations.

Most likely, in fact highly likely, IAF F-16s were detected and tracked (and even possibly locked on) by Syrian S-200 and they "masked" (the oldest trick in the book) by descending IL-20.

Putin was explicit in his conversation with Bibi that Israel not only violates Syria's airspace but violated previous agreements with Russia on matters of attacking Syrian/Iranian targets.

There will be consequences and Putin also was explicit today when stated that, and I quote, "everyone will notice them". While it is a sad day for Russia and is agony for families of the crew, it is also clear (and thank God) that France and her ship had no hand in it whatsoever.

Is Putin between a rock and a hard place in Syria? He's committed significant capabilities to assist Assad in regaining control of Syrian territory, but FUKUS and Turkey are playing a spoilers game with the possibility that they could enter the Syrian conflict with an even larger force structure.

Actually, he didn't commit "significant" capabilities. They are very moderate by Russia standards. You want to see significant capabilities--Google Vostok 2018. That's significant. The appearance of new capabilities in Syria is long overdue, precisely for the reason that it is Russia who is keeping a barrel to Turkey's temple, not the other way around. They are needed their anyway just in case FUKUS decides to respond to absolutely unexpected and evil chemical weapons attacks by Assad.

FB Ali smoothieX12 .2 days ago ,

It seems to me that Putin's response was too 'soft'. Unlike Shoigu's. Perhaps there is some divergence between Russian political and military policies with regard to Israel. What happens as a result of this tragedy will clarify matters. Putin cannot afford to alienate his military (and thus the Russian people) for the sake of Israel.

Pat Lang Mod FB Ali2 days ago ,

Right. One must ask why Putin is acting this way. He has actually taken Trump off the hook. If the offensive had gone in Trump would have been under a lot of pressure to take military action when the WH drama played out.

The DMZ agreement prevents that, and now he takes this soft line over this bit of Israeli cleverness that cost Shoigu 14 men for no good reason, Curious. One might think he does not want to rock the boat before the mid term.

smoothieX12 . Pat Lang2 days ago ,

Right. One must ask why Putin is acting this way. He has actually taken Trump off the hook. If the offensive had gone in Trump would have been under a lot of pressure to take military action when the WH drama played out.

Bingo! Plus a chance for Turkey to clean up her act a bit. It is a good old anecdote about two bulls (old and young) standing on the hill looking down at the cows' herd.

Pat Lang Mod smoothieX12 .2 days ago ,

Yup "let's walk down and do them all ..."

Kooshy smoothieX12 .a day ago ,

IMO, the new deal between R+6 and Turkey on Idlib for time being is smart, I think for R+6 is the right strategy for now. IMO the thinking behind it was, it's better to keep Turkey on this (Astana) side of the war rather than let her loose spoiler or worst to let her go back to the West/Arab/Israel alliance and allow re arming the jihadis. It's a salami slicing strategy VS. an open between R+6 and entire west while Turkey playing both sides and collect concessions. IMO R+6 can better afford buying time than the scarce resources while they all are under economic sanctions.

Bill Herschel Pat Langa day ago ,

A timeline of the Israeli F-16's actions that resulted in the downing of the IL-20 in Izvestia. It was completely intentional. The planes were within several hundred meters of each other. The Israeli's set up the IL-20 knowing beforehand it would be destroyed. https://iz.ru/790550/kirill...

Pat Lang Mod Bill Herschela day ago ,

Yes. Anyone who wants to absolve the Israelis of guilt in this matter is just a sap.

smoothieX12 . FB Ali2 days ago ,

Perhaps there is some divergence between Russian political and military policies with regard to Israel.

This divergence is mostly a fantasy of Western political class and media. They project their own view on how their own government operates (or rather does not) onto Kremlin and that is why they always wrong.

FB Ali smoothieX12 .a day ago ,

Perhaps in your time in Russia the Kremlin was a monolith. It doesn't seem so now, certainly as far as the expression of differing views are concerned (eg, Shoigu's vs Putin's). Such differing views, publicly expressed, do represent their institutions' views. I have no doubt that Russia's military is very unhappy with Israel's actions in this incident. And, would like to teach Israel a lesson. But they don't make policy (theirs is only one input), and they follow the policies ultimately decided by the state.

Many other factors need to be taken into account in the finalization of the State's policies. The policies of the Russian state are expressed by its head (ie, Putin).

FB FB Ali2 days ago ,

I think there will be 'visible' changes to Russia's security posture in Syria, as Putin has unambiguously stated..and probably very quickly...the objective of those changes will be to minimize the potential of any such provocations succeeding going forward...the Israelis going forward will need to pull in their horns, and their media is already discussing this...

Again, I don't think we must necessarily assume that the goat is Israel here...yes they were involved in what was clearly a plot, but it is also very possible that the Russian plane was downed by the French or British...

Bálint Somkuti FB Ali2 days ago ,

There is a growing sentiment, that Russia is handling too softly the attacks on its armed forces. The lack of visible or spectacular retaliations, counteractions is making an impression of a very narrow set of choices in Russia's Syria policy.

smoothieX12 . Bálint Somkuti2 days ago ,

There is a growing sentiment, that Russia is handling too softly the attacks on its armed forces.

Growing among who? Armchair strategists? Granted, I am one myself.

[Sep 23, 2018] One minute warning was a part of Israeli plan

Sep 23, 2018 | www.unz.com

The scalpel , says: Website September 21, 2018 at 8:04 pm GMT

@Andrei Martyanov

.It all sounds like a pure Syrian IFF fuck-up, not an Israeli conjob.
When Powers was shot down in his U-2 over USSR, the other downed aircraft was Soviet Aviation of PVO MiG-17 (or 19--don't remember from the top of my head). A classic case of "friendly fire". Andrei, I have never seen you blow so much smoke or work so hard to quell emotions I guess it may be justified in doing what one can to stop WWIII. Maybe there are other reasons.

You are usually very careful to make sure that, in your writing, 2+2 = 4. This time, perhaps for the above reasons, not so much. You claim that most posts on this thread are emotional rants or trolls, yet you have spent most of your efforts trying to calm emotions and not addressing more serious flaws in the official story.

Harold Smith rightly pointed out that the F16s did not end up behind the IL20 by mistake. This was not some joy ride by the F16s. It was a well planned intentional operation. The Israelis knew the habits and capabilities of the IL20 and made plans accordingly using cover from the IL20 as their method to penetrate within the envelope of the S200s. The 1 minute warning was a part of that plan. Any more warning would have exposed the F16s to much more danger.

The Israelis knew a one minute warning was inadequate but gave it just for its value of plausible deniability. They probably expected the S200s to hold their fire but they had no way of being sure of that. Instead, they made an intentional plan, using the IL20 as cover and intentionally putting the IL20 at risk of shoot down in order to protect their F16s. The one minute warning was good for plausible deniability, nothing more.

Then we see Netanyahu rushing to de-escalate. The only thing he can plausibly say to Putin is that this was intentional but done without his knowledge or permission. To claim it was a "tragic error" is a joke. Would Putin believe that? Not likely. Thus we have a whole delegation flying to Moscow to attempt to bolster that argument.

Not that the political players give a damn about it, but Israel's actions here are blatant violations of international law, probably war crimes, and well, just plain immoral. But it is only regular guys like me that care about stuff like that.

[Sep 23, 2018] Let's put it this way, once Russians and Americans begin to kill each-other, Israel goes immediately down. In fact, it will cease to exist as a state. But who wants to pay such a price? Bibi knows that.

Sep 23, 2018 | www.unz.com

Andrei Martyanov , says: Website September 21, 2018 at 8:49 pm GMT

@VICB3 Please see VicB3 Comment above.

Thanks.

VicB3

-Israel has a history of false flag operations.

She does and this latest event could have been (with high degree of probability) precipitated by Russian-Turkey-Iranian arrangement on Idlib, because isolation of Israeli-friendly (or rather openly supported by her) most radical Islamic groups will happen and that means Israel losing one of her most important pieces of strategy of keeping ME destabilized. But then again–a good proof of effectiveness of Russia's actions in the area, isn't it? Good ol' classic cliche: the flak is heavy, that means we are over target.

-Israel has a fleet of quiet diesel-electric subs.

Yes, she does–German built.

-It has been shown that diesel electric subs have in the past easily come within striking distance of U.S. carriers.

True, even nukes (subs) have penetrated ASW "shield" and conducted lengthy trailing of CBGs many times.

-If Israel wanted to suck the United States into a shooting war in Syria, it would make sense to sink the Truman with one of it's subs, blaming in on Russia. The United States egged on by its NeoCon contingents and in a fit of emotionalism – think 9/11 – would almost certainly react before thinking.

Ahh, not quite. Recall what happened with Kursk, the first act of the United States was to have CIA Director be on the first flight to Moscow. No, it doesn't work like this and, I have suspicion that, however deplorable Israel's policies are, Israel proper intelligence and military people are on the order of magnitude smarter, however deviously, and calculating than American neocons most of whom are dumb as fvcks and good only in bribery and mass-media tantrums. Reaction of Israel in all this situation is the best proof.

-Of course, one something like this did happen, you'd have a war. And war is a wild thing that, once turned loose, does what it wants and is out of control.

Let's put it this way, once Russians and Americans begin to kill each-other, Israel goes immediately down. In fact, it will cease to exist as a state. But who wants to pay such a price? Bibi knows that.

Andrei Martyanov , says: Website September 22, 2018 at 9:05 pm GMT
@Erebus

Let's put it this way, once Russians and Americans begin to kill each-other, Israel goes immediately down. In fact, it will cease to exist as a state.
Can you expand on that?

Unless you're simply pointing out that escalation to a large scale nuclear exchange means all states "will cease to exist', this is a non-trivial statement that begs explication.

Can you expand on that?

Israel is a known "owner" of nuclear weapons and is the nation which, depending on scenario, has the ability to attack pretty much anything in Europe. Possible counter-force scenario between Russia and US will involve "killing" of Israel's nuclear deterrent, as it will be with European NATO members (UK and France), but Israel is tiny and any nuclear strike there is, basically, a death sentence. This is in a nutshell–of course contingencies vary but I am sure Israel's nuclear sites are in the targeting data base of Russia's nuclear triad. That is until Israel gets the message and gets back to daddy (or mommy) and that is what is in play right now. It will take some time, though.

[Sep 23, 2018] 'Criminal negligence' or disregard to Russia-Israel ties MoD details chronology of Il-20 downing -- RT World News

Notable quotes:
"... "We believe that the blame for the Russian Il-20 aircraft tragedy lies entirely with the Israeli Air Force," ..."
"... "the military leadership of Israel either has no appreciation for the level of relations with Russia, or has no control over individual commands or commanding officers who understood that their actions would lead to tragedy." ..."
"... "a clear violation of the 2015 Russian-Israeli agreements." ..."
"... The misleading information provided by the Israeli officer about the area of strikes did not allow the Russian Il-20 airplane to move timely to a safe area. ..."
"... "preferred target" ..."
"... "The Israeli jets saw the Russian Ilyushin Il-20 and used it as a shield against the anti-aircraft missiles ..."
"... , while they carried on maneuvering in the region," ..."
"... The actions of the Israeli fighter pilots, which led to the loss of life of 15 Russian servicemen, either lacked professionalism or were an act of criminal negligence, to say the least. ..."
"... "This is an extremely ungrateful response to all that has been done by the Russian Federation for Israel and the Israeli people recently," ..."
"... "ensure there were no shelling attacks on Israeli territory" ..."
"... "a six-year hiatus." ..."
"... "safe distance for Israel," ..."
"... "A total of 1,050 personnel, 24 MLRSs and tactical missiles, as well as 145 pieces of other munitions and military equipment were withdrawn from the area," ..."
"... In view of the above, the hostile actions committed by the Israeli Air Force against the Russian Ilyushin Il-20 aircraft cross the line of civilized relations. ..."
Sep 23, 2018 | www.rt.com

Criminal negligence' or disregard to Russia-Israel ties: MoD details chronology of Il-20 downing Published time: 23 Sep, 2018 08:21 Edited time: 23 Sep, 2018 17:18 Get short URL © Russian Defense Ministry A minute-by-minute account of the Il-20 downing shows Israel's culpability and either its military bosses' lack of appreciation of relations with Moscow, or their control of commanding officers, the Russian defense ministry said. "We believe that the blame for the Russian Il-20 aircraft tragedy lies entirely with the Israeli Air Force," said spokesman Major General Igor Konashenkov, before revealing a detailed account of events leading to the downing of the Russian Il-20 military aircraft on September 17. The plane was shot down by the Syrian air defense units as Israeli's F-16s effectively used it as a cover during the attack on its neighbor.

The report featured previously undisclosed radar data and details of communications between Russian and Israeli militaries, and concluded that "the military leadership of Israel either has no appreciation for the level of relations with Russia, or has no control over individual commands or commanding officers who understood that their actions would lead to tragedy."

Read more FILE PHOTO. Russian IL-20M. © Alexander KOPITAR / AFP 'You are to blame for downing of Il-20 and death of its crew,' Russia tells Israel Misinformation & 'criminal negligence'

On the evening of September 17, the Russian Ilyushin IL-20 with 15 crew on board was circling over the Idlib de-escalation zone on a special reconnaissance mission, when four Israeli F-16 fighter jets left their country's airspace and flew over the neutral Mediterranean waters towards the Syrian coast. The Israeli Air Force gave the Russian side less than a minute's warning before dropping the precision-guided glide bombs, leaving virtually no time for any safety maneuvers, Konashenkov said, calling such actions "a clear violation of the 2015 Russian-Israeli agreements."

Moreover, the Israeli military failed to provide the location of their jets or properly specify their targets, claiming they were going to attack several 'industrial facilities' in northern Syria, close to the Il-20's area of operation. The misinformation prompted the Russian Command to order the recon plane back to the Khmeimim air base. The Israeli jets, however, instead almost immediately attacked the western Syrian Latakia province.

The misleading information provided by the Israeli officer about the area of strikes did not allow the Russian Il-20 airplane to move timely to a safe area.

Once the Syrian air defenses responded to the initial strike, the Israeli jets switched on radar jamming and pulled back, apparently preparing for another attack. One of the Israeli jets then came closer to the Syrian coast and approached the Russian plane, which was preparing to land at that time.

An Israeli jet approaching the Russian plane at a time when the Syrian anti-air missile was launched © Russian Defense Ministry

The Israeli pilot must have been well aware of the fact that the Il-20 has a much larger radar cross-section than his F-16, and would become a "preferred target" for the Syrian air defense units, who use different friend-or-foe systems with the Russians, Konashenkov said. Thus, for the Syrians, the reconnaissance plane could appear as a group of Israeli jets.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/Qg9GliGS0RY

"The Israeli jets saw the Russian Ilyushin Il-20 and used it as a shield against the anti-aircraft missiles , while they carried on maneuvering in the region," Konashenkov said during the news briefing.

The actions of the Israeli fighter pilots, which led to the loss of life of 15 Russian servicemen, either lacked professionalism or were an act of criminal negligence, to say the least.

Finally, the Israeli jets carried out their maneuvers in the immediate vicinity of the Khmeimim air base, which is used both by military and civilian aircraft, including passenger planes, the ministry's spokesman emphasized, saying that the reckless actions of the Israeli pilots could also have posed a threat to any passenger or transport aircraft that may have happened to be there at that time.

Israel 'crossed the line of civilized relations' with 'ungrateful response'

Israel's negligent behavior amounts to a flagrant violation of the very spirit of cooperation between the countries, Konashenkov stated, noting that Russia has never broken its commitment to the deconfliction agreement – it has always informed Israel about their missions in advance and has never used its air defense capabilities against the Israelis, even though their airstrikes sometimes put the Russian servicemen in danger.

Read more FILE PHOTO An Israeli F-16 fighter jet during the Blue Flag drill November 25, 2013 © Amir Cohen Israeli army blames Damascus for Russia's Il-20 downing, mourns death of crew – statement

Russia has sent as many as 310 notifications to the Israeli Air Force Command, while the latter appeared to be reluctant to show the same level of commitment, notifying only 25 times even though its jets carried out more than 200 strikes against targets located in Syria over the past 18 months alone.

"This is an extremely ungrateful response to all that has been done by the Russian Federation for Israel and the Israeli people recently," Konashenkov said.

The Russian military supported the Syrian military operation in the Golan Heights to "ensure there were no shelling attacks on Israeli territory" anymore, thus allowing the UN peacekeeping mission to resume patrolling of the contested border between Syria and Israel after "a six-year hiatus."

Russia also managed to secure the withdrawal of all Iran-backed groups from the Golan Heights to a "safe distance for Israel," more than 140 kilometers to the east of Syria, the spokesperson said, adding that this was done at the request of Tel Aviv. "A total of 1,050 personnel, 24 MLRSs and tactical missiles, as well as 145 pieces of other munitions and military equipment were withdrawn from the area," Konashenkov told journalists.

The Russian Defense Ministry had provided assistance in preserving Jewish sacred places and graves in the city of Aleppo. Putting Russian Special Forces soldiers' lives in danger, it also organized the search for the remains of some Israeli servicemen that died during the past conflicts in an area where the Syrian forces were combating Islamic State (IS, former ISIS) terrorists at that time.

In view of the above, the hostile actions committed by the Israeli Air Force against the Russian Ilyushin Il-20 aircraft cross the line of civilized relations.

While Israel said that it mourned the deaths of Russian troops, the IDF statement following the incident shifted all the blame for the incident solely on Damascus, and its Iranian and Lebanese allies.

[Sep 23, 2018] Israel to Continue Military Op in Syria Despite Il-20 Downing Lieberman - Sputnik International

Sep 23, 2018 | sputniknews.com

Israel to Continue Military Op in Syria Despite Il-20 Downing – Lieberman © REUTERS / Baz Ratner Middle East 16:21 23.09.2018 (updated 17:58 23.09.2018) Get short URL Topic: Russian Il-20 Military Plane Shot Down Over Syria (29) 8 1 25 Russia blames Israel for the destruction of the Il-20, which cost the lives of 15 servicemen, after it emerged that around the time if its demise, Israeli fighter jets were in immediate proximity to the Russian plane. The Russian Ministry of Defense accused the Israeli Air Force of providing misleading information about the area where planned air strikes on Syrian targets were to take place, violating an agreement with Russia, and shortly afterwards Israeli Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman stated Israel won't ditch conducting operations in Syria to thwart Iran's military presence there, despite the tragic Il-20 incident. The Russian Defense Ministry released detailed information on Il-20 crash in Syria © Photo : Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation WATCH 3D Reconstruction of Il-20 Downing in Syria, Released by Russian MoD

"We have been operating prudently and responsibly and only in cases where we've had no other choice. So nothing has changed or will change. This is our policy," Israeli Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman told the local radio station Kan in an interview published Sunday morning.

"We won't let Syria be turned into a main Iranian military facility against the Israeli state. We continue to act and we have all the necessary means and opportunities to this end," he noted.

Flicker of Hope for Effective Dialogue

According to Lieberman, Israeli military servicemen continue to pin their hopes on good communication, which they established with Russian military units in Syria three years ago to avoid potential conflicts.

IL-20 © Photo: arms-expo.ru Israel Can't Get Away With Il-20 Downing in Syria – IR Scholars

"The whole incident is under examination and control. We have an ongoing dialogue. The general picture and facts are all clear, and I think the situation will be resolved," Lieberman said.

Israel has yet to admit guilt in the Il-20 downing. It disputes Moscow's statements over the issue, according to which, Israeli F-16 fighter aircraft used the Il-20 as a shield their latest air attack on Syria and essentially put it in the line of retaliating fire opened by the Syrian air defense.

Tel Aviv, meanwhile, claimed the anti-aircraft shooters fired "chaotically and haphazardly" having failed to make sure there were no Russian aircraft in the fire zone. According to information provided by the Israeli side, by the time the Il-20 was destroyed after being hit by a Syrian S-200 missile, the four F-16s were already well on their way home.

READ MORE: Intel Chief Boasted of IAF's 'Precision' Just Before Il-20 Shootdown -- Reports

Israel said it has been allegedly targeting Iranian military facilities in Syria, with Iran and Syria flatly denying the claims.

On September 17, a Il-20 military plane disappeared from the Russian radar screens, while on its way back to the Syrian airbase Hmeymim, which lies 35 kilometers away from the Mediterranean shore. According to the Russian Ministry of Defense, at around the same time, four Israeli F-16 military jets attacked Syrian targets in Latakia, having informed the Russian side just one minute prior to the attack.

The ministry went on to state that by hiding behind the Russian jet, the Israeli pilots thereby subjected it to an attack by the Syrian air defense units, which left a total of 15 Russian military servicemen killed in the aircraft destruction.

[Sep 23, 2018] Attempt to blame Putin

Notable quotes:
"... "none of this would in any way exculpate the Israelis for the very simple reason that had the Israelis warned the Russians on time this entire tragedy might have been avoided even if the prime culprits are cowardly Israeli pilots, less than competent Syrian air defense crews or too trusting Russians. " ..."
"... No, none of this would have happened if Putin had refused to allow his bosom buddy Nazinyahu to bomb his ally, Syria, with impunity. ..."
"... It is definitely worth reading not only the quoted article but other commentaries, because the inventors of shutzpah are now collectively dancing on the graves of the 15 Russian officers. ..."
Sep 23, 2018 | www.unz.com

Andrei Martyanov , says: Website September 21, 2018 at 1:24 pm GMT

@J Since the Russians largely control the Syrian antiair defenses, one could also conclude that they share the responsibility in downing their own aircraft. Maybe the Israelis overestimated Russian readiness and response capabilities. In Tzahal, one minute is a lot of time. As Putin said, it was a tragic fuckup.

In Tzahal, one minute is a lot of time.

No, this can not be true!!! I always knew that Tzahal operates on millisecond increments. In fact, it can also travel back in time. You know, because they are that good.

Fiendly Neighbourhood Terrorist , says: Website September 21, 2018 at 1:48 pm GMT

"none of this would in any way exculpate the Israelis for the very simple reason that had the Israelis warned the Russians on time this entire tragedy might have been avoided even if the prime culprits are cowardly Israeli pilots, less than competent Syrian air defense crews or too trusting Russians. "

No, none of this would have happened if Putin had refused to allow his bosom buddy Nazinyahu to bomb his ally, Syria, with impunity. Russia is being treated with contempt by the zionazi pseudostate for the simple reason that the Zios were bombing a "target" right next to the Russian Hmeimim airbase.

Nor is the loss of the Il 20 something minor. It was a very expensive, highly capable system manned by extremely well trained, hard to replace, valuable crew, each of whom had many years of irreplaceable experience. Do *not* attempt to whitewash that.

The Saker needs to stop defending the zionazi stooge and capitalist roader Putin. His "restraint" is making Russia look like a pushover and emboldening its enemies. What is the Amerikastani aircraft carrier Harry Truman doing in the Mediterranean right now, a health cruise?

Fiendly Neighbourhood Terrorist , says: Website September 21, 2018 at 1:57 pm GMT
There is absolutely nothing stopping Putin from ordering his bosom buddy Nazinyahu to immediately stop all bombing of Syria, on the pain of having his zionazi war criminals being shot out of the air. What exactly is preventing Putin from doing this, assuming that the S400 actually works as advertised? Can any of the professional Putinite propaganda purveyors, as despicable a breed as the Trumpets, Obamopologists, and Hillarybots, explain?
Kiza , says: September 21, 2018 at 2:03 pm GMT
@Felix Keverich

First, let me start by a very simple and primitive question:

Why in the world has nobody considered that the Israelis might have truly screwed-up?

'Careless' is the word I would use. Israelis are being careless, because they never have to pay a price for their aggressions and their mistakes. Putin encourages this carelessness , when he refuses to impose costs on Israel. The lesson Israelis are learning from this incident is that Russia is weak, and Putin has "little choice", but allow Israelis free hand in Syria. This is what Israelis newspapers are saying, check this out:

https://twitter.com/DanielS22647562/status/1043070311355301889 It is definitely worth reading not only the quoted article but other commentaries, because the inventors of shutzpah are now collectively dancing on the graves of the 15 Russian officers. Just as they placed sofas to watch the destruction of Gaza. Thank you for the link Felix.

Much better reading Harretz than the awe of our two Armchair Marshals, Saker and Martyanov, at the level of the IDF delegations sent to Moscow, to ensure that the Russian military does not get any "reserved" ideas (reserve the right to huff & puff).

Here is my favorite piece from this Jewish BS machine above:

unconfirmed sources from Syria have reported that Russian military police abducted and are brutally interrogating officers and soldiers from the Syrian air-defense battery that fired the fateful missile

But, but I naively thought that the Russians discovered a secret link which proves that those now brutally interrogated Syrians did 911 , not the Iraqis accused before.

I do understand that Putin does not have any good option now and that his premature and dumb commentary about the "accident" was for his own ass-covering not to protect those Jews who made such a total ass of him. But whenever the Russians die, as when the SU-24 pilot died, he learned nothing and continues on making and trusting the deals with the sponsors of terrorism.

Finally, I do note that the smart people, such as Israel Shamir, keep their mouths shut for now, till the fog clears and the emotions blow-over. I am looking forward to his next article to understand the feelings in the Russian military regarding Putin.

Andrei Martyanov , says: Website September 21, 2018 at 2:23 pm GMT
@Kiza It is definitely worth reading not only the quoted article but other commentaries, because the inventors of shutzpah are now collectively dancing on the graves of the 15 Russian officers. Just as they placed sofas to watch the destruction of Gaza. Thank you for the link Felix.

Much better reading Harretz than the awe of our two Armchair Marshals, Saker and Martyanov, at the level of the IDF delegations sent to Moscow, to ensure that the Russian military does not get any "reserved" ideas (reserve the right to ... huff & puff).

Here is my favorite piece from this Jewish BS machine above:


unconfirmed sources from Syria have reported that Russian military police abducted and are brutally interrogating officers and soldiers from the Syrian air-defense battery that fired the fateful missile
But, but I naively thought that the Russians discovered a secret link which proves that those now brutally interrogated Syrians did 911 , not the Iraqis accused before.

I do understand that Putin does not have any good option now and that his premature and dumb commentary about the "accident" was for his own ass-covering not to protect those Jews who made such a total ass of him. But whenever the Russians die, as when the SU-24 pilot died, he learned nothing and continues on making and trusting the deals with the sponsors of terrorism.

Finally, I do note that the smart people, such as Israel Shamir, keep their mouths shut for now, till the fog clears and the emotions blow-over. I am looking forward to his next article to understand the feelings in the Russian military regarding Putin.

Much better reading Harretz than the awe of our two Armchair Marshals, Saker and Martyanov

Do you want me to prove, using you as an example, for all other present here hysterical non-men, that none of you have any idea of what was and is going on by me merely introducing a simple tactical-technical parameter which defines tactical reality in any radar systems. I'll give you hint–it is reported to all military radar operating units (from ground to the sea) and is logged and accounted for (with proper adjustments in procedures) every single day, sometimes on 12 hour increments. This factor could be of prime importance, especially against the background of old S-200 AD complex. Are you game? Then we will compare who are real "armchair strategists" here.

Felix Keverich , says: September 21, 2018 at 2:59 pm GMT
@Andrei Martyanov

Much better reading Harretz than the awe of our two Armchair Marshals, Saker and Martyanov
Do you want me to prove, using you as an example, for all other present here hysterical non-men, that none of you have any idea of what was and is going on by me merely introducing a simple tactical-technical parameter which defines tactical reality in any radar systems. I'll give you hint--it is reported to all military radar operating units (from ground to the sea) and is logged and accounted for (with proper adjustments in procedures) every single day, sometimes on 12 hour increments. This factor could be of prime importance, especially against the background of old S-200 AD complex. Are you game? Then we will compare who are real "armchair strategists" here. This is some irrelevant technical mumbo-jumbo. Kiza was making a comment about political side of the issue:

Israelis have no respect for Russia and Putin. They feel emboldened by Putin's weak reaction.

Andrei Martyanov , says: Website September 21, 2018 at 4:28 pm GMT
@Felix Keverich This is some irrelevant technical mumbo-jumbo. Kiza was making a comment about political side of the issue:

Israelis have no respect for Russia and Putin. They feel emboldened by Putin's weak reaction.

This is some irrelevant technical mumbo-jumbo.

Well, then I am sure you will treat your future illnesses (God forbids you to become ill, stay healthy) at Voodoo doctors, since all this medical mumbo-jumbo is irrelevant. I heard Haiti Voodoo healthcare is great and very-very affordable.

Kiza was making a comment about political side of the issue:

Only few posts here are real comments, most of them is some hysterical weeping in an adrenaline deprived organisms upon understanding that Israel is not going to be destroyed immediately by Russians. Hence, your posts included, either hysterical reactions or trolling, mostly, sorry for being blunt, by people who have zero knowledge of Russia in general, and her military in particular. So, a wonderful unification of pseudo-patriots and all kinds of ignorant trolls happened. It is rather interesting to observe.

[Sep 23, 2018] I will be watching the Russian Mayday parades with photos of killed relatives in a totally different light from now on – those people in the photos are the victims of the Russian elite

As if in any other country this situation is different...
Putin priority was avoiding larger confrontation, which if spun out of control can lead to WWIII. And I think he was right trying to downplay the situation.
Sep 23, 2018 | www.unz.com

Kiza , says: September 21, 2018 at 5:18 am GMT

This is terribly empty ramble and it is time to stop reading this rambler. But before I stop I will quote myself:

My critique of Putin is not that he did not kill back the Turks, the US military and the Israelis, it is that he keeps making agreements with the non-agreement capable sponsors of terrorism and then entrusts the lives of his soldiers to such agreements.

In other words, the four Israeli planes should have never been tagged "friendlies", which was obviously the Putin's standing order to the Russian military based on his agreement with these sponsors of terrorism. The rest in this tragic event for Russia is what usually happens in war – fear, huge and costly mistakes, and incompetence all around.

Saker, I hope you and Martyanov both, as a reward for your insightful writing about the panicking Israeli pilots, get to read your recent articles to the 10-year old daughter of one of the Russian officers killed.

You two are the Marshals of all the Armchair Generals that you laugh at. With "intellectuals" such as you, now I understand why the Russian always die in wars like cattle and win wars by sacrificing the most/only valuable human capital (why do they call such 'a Pyrrhic victory' when it should be called 'a Russian victory'). I will be watching the Russian Mayday parades with photos of killed relatives in a totally different light from now on – those people in the photos are the victims of the Russian "elite" and the self-declared Russian Armchair Marshals.

The unfortunate Syrians are the beggars, so they cannot be choosers who their "friends" are.

J , says: Website September 21, 2018 at 6:49 am GMT
Since the Russians largely control the Syrian antiair defenses, one could also conclude that they share the responsibility in downing their own aircraft. Maybe the Israelis overestimated Russian readiness and response capabilities. In Tzahal, one minute is a lot of time. As Putin said, it was a tragic fuckup.
Harold Smith , says: September 21, 2018 at 7:18 am GMT
"I tried to post a short commentary suggesting that before we jump to conclusions about anything, we ought to wait for the fact to come out."

Well Putin didn't waste anytime jumping to the conclusion that it was an "accident," right? I blame him for being too quick to say that.

And I blame him for allowing the Israeli attacks to continue for so long. Something bad (for Russia) was bound to happen eventually. And they're war crimes, aren't they? It would've been okay with everybody if it was a Syrian plane that went down?

"So why is everybody assuming that the Israelis carefully planned the whole thing?"

King David Hotel, USS Liberty, 9/11, etc.

"First, let me start by a very simple and primitive question: Why in the world has nobody considered that the Israelis might have truly screwed-up?"

When someone "screws up" during the commission of a crime, a crime "evincing a depraved indifference to human life" and someone dies because of it, it's known in Western jurisprudence as a "depraved heart murder" not an "accident."

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/D/DepravedHeartMurder.aspx

"At this point, I need to ask another question: what would the Israelis gain from shooting down the Il-20?"

You could also ask for example: what did they gain by running over Rachel Corrie with a bulldozer? And the answer would be the same IMO: They do what they do because they're evil.

hunor , says: September 21, 2018 at 7:46 am GMT
Mr. you are a very naïve person. One doesn't have to be a
Putin or Jew hater to see with clarity. In fact we the gojims are the ones
who is in our face is being hated, and planed to be destroyed. They declaring
a new world order. The very word of new implies a departure from what we
have today, a culture of nation states. The very word of order implies Dictatorial slavery.
According to Assange , we are the last generation of free people.
The western countries being overrun by primitives who are the biological
weapons of the elites, one economical crises and everybody is against everybody,
until only the well protected elites remain. The murder of a highly trained
Russian military persons were premeditated planed murder. In earlier
analysis of yours you called this form of warfare " leapfrogging " . And the
hollywooding of the Izraeli leadersip, is a part of deceiveing the gojim.
The did what they do best they draw blood of the gojim, and getting away
with it again with an explanation, playing on our fears of not to escalating further.
Putin calling it an accident, he remind me of an other historic figure
who's name was Marshall Emanuel Grouchy. He was Napoleon's trusted general
in 1815 at waterloo , when he heard the battle drums he started to march with his
units to the opposite direction away from the warzone, so the French army was slathered.
What does it count if they are the best and bravest and have a best missile systems,
if they are being mislead and betrayed? Try to analyzing that.
judeo-christian , says: September 21, 2018 at 8:23 am GMT
What's funny is that The Saker wants to stick to the "facts" but all he gives is, when you read his article closely is apologizing for the failure of Russian policy with regards to the Israelis, a mix of contradictions, Putin-ifallibility and the usual "Russia good, rest meh"
Andrei Martyanov , says: Website September 21, 2018 at 1:21 pm GMT
@hunor Mr. you are a very naïve person. One doesn't have to be a
Putin or Jew hater to see with clarity. In fact we the gojims are the ones
who is in our face is being hated, and planed to be destroyed. They declaring
a new world order. The very word of new implies a departure from what we
have today, a culture of nation states. The very word of order implies Dictatorial slavery.
According to Assange , we are the last generation of free people.
The western countries being overrun by primitives who are the biological
weapons of the elites, one economical crises and everybody is against everybody,
until only the well protected elites remain. The murder of a highly trained
Russian military persons were premeditated planed murder. In earlier
analysis of yours you called this form of warfare " leapfrogging " . And the
hollywooding of the Izraeli leadersip, is a part of deceiveing the gojim.
The did what they do best they draw blood of the gojim, and getting away
with it again with an explanation, playing on our fears of not to escalating further.
Putin calling it an accident, he remind me of an other historic figure
who's name was Marshall Emanuel Grouchy. He was Napoleon's trusted general
in 1815 at waterloo , when he heard the battle drums he started to march with his
units to the opposite direction away from the warzone, so the French army was slathered.
What does it count if they are the best and bravest and have a best missile systems,
if they are being mislead and betrayed? Try to analyzing that.

One doesn't have to be a Putin or Jew hater to see with clarity

So, you do then, I assume, have now or had in the past Form 1A clearance to know how and what Tactical and Operational Manuals describe in terms of setting Air Defense systems, establishment of communications networks ah, never mind–I am sure "Jews The Almighty" bible of yours gives all necessary answers. Including describing issues of angular separation of targets, principles of development of command decisions from tactical to operational level and other irrelevant crap.

[Sep 23, 2018] PUTIN DOESN'T BLINK AS ISRAEL TAKES DOWN RUSSIAN AIRCRAFT IN HUGE ATTACK ON SYRIA TO DERAIL PEACE IN IDLIB by Jonathan Azaziah

Notable quotes:
"... Russian President Vladimir Putin's comments on the matter were much more Measured. His detractors, in their usual hysterical cacophonies, called him "soft". As always with Putin though, one must read between the lines. Ever the defuser, ever the peace-maker, he called what took place a "chain of tragic and chance circumstances". But later on, he made it clear that it was a "serious incident" that "requires a response". ..."
"... And then said in no uncertain terms, "As for retaliatory measures, they will be aimed first and foremost at further ensuring the safety of our military personnel and facilities in Syria. And these will be steps that everyone will notice." ..."
"... Zionists played such an odious role in the Russian-Georgian War. ..."
"... massacred the crew of the USS Liberty with the goal of blaming Egypt and starting WW3 between–you guessed it–the US and the Soviet Union. We were only minutes away from a US nuclear strike on Cairo when the Americans realized it was an 'Israeli' attack. ..."
"... Gulf War was 'Israeli' terrorist Yitzhak Shamir threatening to drop an atom bomb on Baghdad ..."
Sep 23, 2018 | www.fort-russ.com
The 'Israelis' really done did it now, didn't they? Flirting with WW3 like never before. After spending billions of dollars over the last several weeks across the Zionist media, telling the world that Baby-Seal-Clubbing, Puppy-Eating Assad was about to gas totally-vegan-completely-democratic-pro-LGBTQIA Al-Qaeda terrorists in Idlib–with chemical arms he doesn't have, mind you–they were completely caught off-guard with a massive bombshell.

Vladimir Putin had negotiated a demilitarization agreement with Neo-Ottoman "sultan" Erdogan, thus, at least in theory, averting a potential bloodbath in the last Takfiri-occupied city in Syria. The prospect of the war on the hardened Syrian battlefields finally being over proved too much for the voracious colonizers in "Tel Aviv". They simply couldn't bear seeing all of their miserable efforts, arming, training, financing and giving medical treatment to these Wahhabi mercenaries for nearly 8 years now being OFFICIALLY kaput.

Panicking, they mobilized, and in a throwback to the 1956 Tripartite Aggression against Egypt, they enlisted the help of an old ally: the French ZOG. France launched missiles from the Mediterranean to throw off Syria-Russian radar trajectories while the 'Israelis' went forward with a huge aerial assault, bombing Lattakia, Tartous, Hama and Homs all at once. As of now, at least two Syrian soldiers have been martyred and about a dozen others have been wounded. The most copious number of casualties however came from the Russian side. An Ilyushin IL-20 electronic surveillance plane was downed in the carnage and 15 Russian servicemen were murdered. 'Israel' decided to play a game of Yahoudling Roulette and used stealth tech to shadow the Russian vessel so when Syrian air defenses responded, they'd hit the Ilyushin IL-20 , not the 'Israeli' occupation air force's murder-plane. And that's exactly what happened.

The Russian military, which laid out the anatomy of the aggression in full, was fuming, "We consider these provocative actions by 'Israel' as hostile. Fifteen Russian military service members have died because of the irresponsible actions of the 'Israeli' military." Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu phoned genocidal war criminal Avigdor Lieberman and is said to have screamed his head off at the 'Israeli' War Minister. He further revealed that 'Israel' called in its attack plans on the Russian-'Israeli' deconfliction line JUST ONE MINUTE before the attack–another blood-soaked confirmation that it wasn't an "accident" as the artificial "Tel Aviv" regime is claiming but a deliberate act of war. Shoigu also told Lieberman that Russia "reserves the right to use further countermeasures" in response to the slaughter of its men. That Lieberman has refrained from speaking on it and IOF itself is yet to apologize reveals the level of culpability at the highest levels of the Zionist occupation's "defense" establishment.

Russian President Vladimir Putin's comments on the matter were much more Measured. His detractors, in their usual hysterical cacophonies, called him "soft". As always with Putin though, one must read between the lines. Ever the defuser, ever the peace-maker, he called what took place a "chain of tragic and chance circumstances". But later on, he made it clear that it was a "serious incident" that "requires a response".

And then said in no uncertain terms, "As for retaliatory measures, they will be aimed first and foremost at further ensuring the safety of our military personnel and facilities in Syria. And these will be steps that everyone will notice." This could mean Russia finally stepping into the throes of the Resistance-Axis-'Israeli' battle and 86ing 'Israeli' aerial movements in Syria. It could mean heavier and more advanced weapons not just to the Syrian state but Iran too. Not that the Islamic Republic needs it of course, as its weapons industry is robust and brilliant, but extra hardware never hurts. We shall soon see.

The Halakhic-Talmudic entity is obviously acting out of desperation and Kabbalistic irrationality. Thus, why would Vladimir Putin, who is trying to END the war on Syria, give the 'Israelis' an excuse to EXPAND the war on Syria in a maddening scenario that will lead to more tragedies, more destruction and more death? It's just not in his ideological DNA. Art of War 101: Win without fighting. Putin gets that–more so than ever with Syria on the verge of total liberation from Takfiri terrorism.

Find Out More > 64,337

He doesn't need to subscribe to some cliched concept of machismo, puff out his chest and behave like a brute just to satisfy the bloodlust of armchair geopolitical "big shots" who don't know their feet from their earlobes, let alone how to confront the Dajjalic-Judaic NWO. The man's trying to avert a nuclear catastrophe–and with 'Israel' and its Samson Option in the mix, that's not hyperbole. Granted, Russia has every right to blast 'Israel' to Jahannam for this atrocity and truth be told, the payback's truly been coming ever since the Zionists played such an odious role in the Russian-Georgian War. But the 'Israelis' executed a warmongering trick And Russia found calm in the heat of the moment, managing not to fall for it. No need to blow the impending triumph now, so it once again boils down to what Ayatollah Sayyed Ali Khamenei calls Strategic Patience–derived from Imam Hassan (A.S.)

Indeed, the aim of 'Israel' here was as blatant as anti-Gentile racism in the Old Testament and the Talmud: The Zio-Tumor planned for Russia to respond on the spot to the aggression, taking out 'Israeli' aircraft and then drawing the US into a wider war Or In an even more cataclysmic calculation, Russia being enveloped in the chaos, mistakenly hitting France and triggering a full-blown NATO retaliation. Either way, the Jews' designs were to bring about a third world war, rendering the US, Russia and the Resistance Axis destroyed or bled out beyond repair, with nobody but 'Israel' left to pick up the pieces and claim global kingship. Lunatic behavior you say? Nutty Netty finally throwing out the Goy baby blood with the matzoh? You wouldn't be entirely wrong. But you wouldn't be entirely right either. For provocations of this nature–those that would lead to a nuclear conflict between two superpowers–are a time-tested Zionist tradition.

In 1954, Egyptian-Jewish Mossad agents carried out Operation Susannah aka the Lavon Affair, planting bombs in US targets to be blamed on the "Muslim" Brotherhood in hopes of getting Washington to attack Egypt and by extension, the Soviet Union. During the Naksa of 1967, 'Israeli' warplanes massacred the crew of the USS Liberty with the goal of blaming Egypt and starting WW3 between–you guessed it–the US and the Soviet Union. We were only minutes away from a US nuclear strike on Cairo when the Americans realized it was an 'Israeli' attack. Then in the Tishreen War, Golda Meir openly pondered about dropping a nuke on Damascus, which wouldn't have killed Syrians alone but Soviet military advisors, yet again setting the stage for Soviet-American conflict.

The reason for the monstrous Gulf War was 'Israeli' terrorist Yitzhak Shamir threatening to drop an atom bomb on Baghdad if the US didn't rein in Saddam Hussein after the maneuver against Kuwait. And how many times have you heard Zionists outright say they wanna see mushroom clouds over Tehran? From vile millennial commentator Jacob Wohl to neocon wacko John Bolton, Hebrew University orientalist Vladimir Mesamed to casino billionaire Sheldon Adelson. This type of psychopathy is the lifeblood of World Zionism.

Ultimately, while Putin's coolness has temporarily staved off an escalation, what should be elucidated for him and the entire Russian establishment now more than ever is that 'Israel' has no respect for Russia's people inside Syria or anywhere else for that matter. "Deconfliction" and "partnership" are but illusions that 'Israel' flexes out of convenience and ignores when inconvenient. According to the Jewish supremacist thinking that guides the illegitimate 'Israeli' regime, a Gentile is a Gentile. Period.

And any Gentile helping out the enemies of "Eretz Yisrael" will be a dead Gentile. Especially when they're Orthodox Christian Russians assisting a unified bloc of Husseini Muslims and fighting as one unit to defeat Zio-Imperialism. Zion's next move depends entirely on Russia's retaliation. One thing's for sure: This was as brazen as brazen gets and "chosenite" arrogance aside, it is not a card that can be played again. In the mean time, we recite Al-Fatiha for the souls of the SAA and Ilyushin IL-20 Lattakia martyrs and pray that the Idlib demilitarization agreement holds. Syria and its allies have all suffered enough.

[Sep 23, 2018] RUSSIA'S IL-20 DOWNING RESPONSE - THIS IS WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN NEXT - Fort Russ

Sep 23, 2018 | www.fort-russ.com

VeeNarian (Yerevan) 3 days ago ,

This RF position regarding Israel is utter rubbish and sadly brave Russian heroes have paid the ultimate price. When did Israel ever attack Al-Nusra and IS or the reverse? Israel and FUKUS are allies to these head-choppers in Syria.
Israel attacks the very forces that are at war with the head-choppers: Syria, Iran and Hezbollah.
How on Earth did the RF leadership get so confused?
I am not at all impressed.
All my respect to the lions of the Russian armed forces in Syria who are being lead by donkeys.

Boxwood tree • 3 days ago ,

I have this to say the IDF and the French frigate seemed to coordinate their attack to get the desired outcome. This means they would have had to have a schedule of the IL 20's flight plans. This Israeli attack was well planned. I wonder if the Russian government realizes this. I have read nothing to say that they did realize it. And the Israeli's must have well coordinated it with the French who are some of their best friends. Russia needs to break off relations with the French and especially the Israelis. Israel is a friend to no one.

[Sep 23, 2018] Urgent Britain, US, France plan to strike Russian base in Syria

Sep 23, 2018 | www.fort-russ.com

Britain has readied its troops on the island of Cyprus for a collective strike by Western countries on Syria.

The Turkish newspaper Yeni Safak states that, the blow will be inflicted by the troops of the United States, Britain and France within the next 24 hours.

According to sources, a total of 22 targets have been identified in Syria, which will be destroyed by Western aviation – these are facilities in Damascus, Homs, Tartus, Hama, Deir ez Zor, and Rakka. In particular, it is planned to strike the area of ​​the Russian military base in Tartus.

[Sep 23, 2018] Russia Capable of Closing Syrian Airspace for Israel - Senior Russian MP

Notable quotes:
"... The evidence released by the Russian Defense Ministry on the circumstances of the Il-20 downing left no doubt that the Israeli Air Force was to blame for the tragedy, the lawmaker stressed, adding that it was impossible to challenge this conclusion "based on an impartial minute-by-minute analysis of the facts." ..."
"... According to Klintsevich, the list of gross violations of mutual agreements committed by Israeli pilots occupies more than one page and the ministry pointed to each of them. ..."
Sep 23, 2018 | sputniknews.com

MOSCOW (Sputnik) - Russia may take steps to prevent further incidents involving the Israeli Air Force jets and has all the capabilities to close the Syrian airspace for Israeli military aircraft if it becomes necessary, a member of the Russian parliament's upper house's defense committee, Frants Klintsevich, told Sputnik on Sunday.

"The essence and meaning of our response is to completely eliminate the possibility of such incidents in the future. We, for example, have all the necessary resources to completely close the Syrian airspace for Israel, and this is only one of the options," Klintsevich said.

WATCH 3D Reconstruction of Il-20 Downing in Syria, Released by Russian MoD The evidence released by the Russian Defense Ministry on the circumstances of the Il-20 downing left no doubt that the Israeli Air Force was to blame for the tragedy, the lawmaker stressed, adding that it was impossible to challenge this conclusion "based on an impartial minute-by-minute analysis of the facts."

According to Klintsevich, the list of gross violations of mutual agreements committed by Israeli pilots occupies more than one page and the ministry pointed to each of them.

"How will this tragedy affect Russia's relations with Israel? It is clear that it is up to the leadership [of Russia] how to address this issue, and I can only make assumptions. I think that the decision will be made taking into account the long-standing good relations between Russia and Israel, and therefore a sharp u-turn like the abolition of a visa-free regime, not to mention something more serious, is hardly possible here," he said.

READ MORE: Israel's Take on IL-20 Incident Undermines Tel-Aviv's Ties to Russia -- Scholar

In general, Klintsevich believes that much will depend on Israel's reaction to the conclusions of the Russian Defense Ministry.

"In connection with this, I consider the statement of Israeli Defense Minister [Avigdor Lieberman], who said today that the attacks on Syria would continue , to be counter-productive. This rhetoric can only aggravate the situation, I do not think that this development of events meets the interests of Israel," the Russian lawmaker concluded.

Russian Defense Ministry Says Israeli Air Force Responsible for Il-20 Downing (VIDEO) Earlier in the day, the Russian Defense Ministry reiterated, during a briefing on circumstances of the September 17 downing of a Russian Il-20 plane in Syria, that the Israeli Air Force was to blame for the incident. According to the ministry, the actions of the IAF pilots, which led to the death of 15 Russian servicemen, either lacked professionalism or were an act of criminal negligence.

[Sep 23, 2018] Report on Findings of Russian IL-20 Shot Down in Syria

Sep 22, 2018 | www.plenglish.com

Moscow, Sep 22 (Prensa Latina)

Military sources reported on Saturday the discovery of the remains of the Russian IL-20 aircraft shot down 27 kilometers west of the Syrian province of Latakia, and remains of 15 soldiers on board the aircraft.
Along with the Syrian town of Banias, ships of the Russian Navy are carrying out in the Mediterranean Sea a search operation for the lifeless bodies of the soldiers, whose plane was completely destroyed last September 17.

Moscow blamed Tel Aviv for the incident, considering that at least four F-16 fighters used the IL-20 as a parapet to evade the fire of the Syrian antiaircraft defense, which caused an S-200 battery to fire on the Russian aircraft.


[Sep 23, 2018] Putin, Israel and the downed Il-20 by The Saker

Notable quotes:
"... both sides emphasized the importance of the states' interests and the continued implementation of the deconfliction system" ..."
Sep 23, 2018 | www.unz.com

Next, let's assume that this is simply the typical case of Israeli arrogance (not a myth!) and that they decided to inform the Russians as late as possible. Does that at all entail that the maneuver of the Israeli F-16s pilots to seek cover from the S-200 missile was something they had planned in advance? Does anybody bother to look at the actual (as opposed to Hollywood) record of the Israeli Air Force during past wars when they were actually challenged by a reasonably capable air defense? There is a detailed discussion (in Russian) about this here which can be summarized like this: as soon as the Israelis start losing aircraft their martial prowess rapidly vanishes. Now please recall this: the Israelis have had recent losses, some admitted, some denied, but there is no doubt that they are tense and very concerned. Bottom line: I would fully expect the Israeli pilots to freak out and seek cover as soon as they are told by their warning system that they are being painted by a radar in tracking mode (the S-200 has a semi-active radar homing guidance system). If that is the case, and I am not saying that this is the only possibility, then the fault is of the Israeli pilots, not of their commanders or the Israeli state as a hole. Yes, the command responsibility is the one of the state, but not the guilt for having engaged in such an evasive maneuver (besides, knowing the price placed by Israeli on goyim lives , this would be just so typical, would it not )

At this point, I need to ask another question: what would the Israelis gain from shooting down the Il-20? They sure ain't gonna frighten the Russians (Russian military don't scare easy) and the Il-20 will be replaced. Scaring the Iranians or Hezbollah? Forget it – not happening. Maybe there was a real lucrative target that they destroyed? Yes, maybe, be so far we don't know anything about this. So what would be the point?

Then the "sister question": what would the Israelis risk by deliberately shooting down a Russian EW aircraft? Well, in theory, they would risk having their aircraft shot down and their airbases engaged with Russian missiles. That is highly unlikely, I will admit, and the Israelis probably understand the Russians very well (many of them being from Russia). But could they be sure that the local commanders would not order an immediate retaliation (as their current rules of engagement do authorize them to!)? Let me remind everybody that this Spring, the USA was not so sure at all, and following the words of the Russian ambassador that " not only missiles but their launchers would be destroyed " the USN and Air Force decided to shoot as little as possible and from as far as possible. As for the British sub, its captain decided to cancel the planned missile strike entirely (they were being shadowed by two Russian subs). Seems to me that the potential risks of that kind of operation would be pretty high, while the potential rewards rather unclear.

Those who insist that this was a deliberate Israeli act need to come up with a halfway credible explanation not only for how this was done, but also why this was done.

Now, like many others, I despise the Israeli racist, genocidal rogue state with all my heart. But that does not prevent me from being capable of imagining a scenario in which the Israelis simply screwed-up. Believe it or not, but my disgust for Zionist ideology does not at all entail a boundless belief in some Israeli infallibility.

Finally, let look at this: today (Sept 20 th ) an IDF delegation led by Air Force Commander Maj.-Gen. Amikam Norkin is in Moscow. Also participating in the trip are the Head of the Foreign Relations Division, Brig.-Gen. Erez Meisel and other officers from the Intelligence, Air Force and Operations Divisions. Does anybody believe that all these officers went to Moscow just to thumb their noses at the Russians? Or maybe they all traveled to Moscow to present some totally non-credible excuses which will only infuriate the Russians further?

My guess is that they have something exculpatory (at least in part) to show.

If the Russians conclude that the Israelis did it deliberately, I will support a strike on Israeli air bases. If the Russians conclude that the Israelis cannot be trusted to abide by any agreements (which I think is indisputable), then I think that the Russians should declare an air exclusion zone over the Russian forces (a 100km radius or so). I also think that it is high time to keep a pair MiG-31BMs on 24/7 combat air patrol high over Syria (they can come quite close to replacing a much more expensive and vulnerable A-50U AWACS).

At this time (Sept 20 th 20:37 GMT) all they have announced is that " both sides emphasized the importance of the states' interests and the continued implementation of the deconfliction system" . If that is all that the Russians decide, then I will find it wholly inadequate and I will predict a further surge in frustration against not only the government, but against Putin himself. But, for the time being, we need to wait and see what the Russian investigation will reveal. Only then can we begin cheering Putin or calling him names.

There is also this possibility: the Russians would decide on an air exclusion zone and tell the Israelis, but both sides would decide to keep this secret in order for Israel to save face (because if the Russians declare an air exclusion zone, this will create a safe heaven for Hezbollah and all the other militias which would be a political disaster for Bibi Netanyahu). So we might never find out.

Finally, I want to add one more thing which is rarely, if ever, mentioned.

The S-200 is a pretty old air defense system. We also know that it does not have a Russian IFF. However, the Russians have declared several times that the Russian air defense network and the Syrian one were integrated. This is what best explains, at least in part, the very high number of US cruise missiles intercepted in April. The problem is that the way the S-200 (and most modern air defense systems) works is that the S-200 is fully integrated into a larger air defense network administered by automated air defense management systems which is operated by a higher echelon air defense command. This means that the Syrian air defense crew did not simply detect the incoming missiles and fire off one of their own. At the very least, this decision was taken by a higher echelon Syrian air defense command. Now we know that the time was extremely short and, hence, the Russian air defense personnel might not have had the time to take protective action, especially not when dealing with a large, slow and vulnerable moving EW aircraft (the fact that this aircraft flew un-escorted is definitely a Russian mistake!). Still, we know that the Russians have many early warning capabilities which the Syrians do not have (AWACS, space based, shipborne radars, over-the-horizon radars, etc.) and there is a pretty decent chance that somebody could have done something to prevent what happened. True, since the Israelis and Russians had an agreement, the Russians therefore classified the Israelis as "non-threat", but it does not take a genius to understand that four Israeli F-16 flying towards the Latakia Governorate are up to no good and that this warrants immediately going on full alert.


Bill65 , says: September 21, 2018 at 8:43 am GMT

Can The Saker tell us what right Israel has to bomb targets in Syria ? The Russians were invited in to save Syria as were the Iranians and Hezbollah but Israel is on the side of the attackers of Syria .
Proud_Srbin , says: September 21, 2018 at 9:21 am GMT
You are absolutely correct.
USA responded in similar fashion when Israel sunk "Liberty" with greater loss of american lives.
Most of Israeli population are God's chosen people and can do no wrong.
God placed them on Earth to watch over us and even gave us his son to civilize us.
Praise the Lord!
anon , [317] Disclaimer says: September 23, 2018 at 6:14 am GMT
@Bill65 Can The Saker tell us what right Israel has to bomb targets in Syria ? The Russians were invited in to save Syria as were the Iranians and Hezbollah but Israel is on the side of the attackers of Syria . One of the first courses in law school is intentional torts. The intent, an act expressing that intent, and damages are the only requirement in many torts. The tort of Battery; intent does not have to be an intent to cause the harm that actually occurred.. Merely expressing an intent in some kind of action satisfies the element of intent; it does not matter to assignment of liability if the actual harm was unintended.

In criminal law: A holds up a bank, five cops show up, B shoots his gun at the ceiling, the bullet bounces and kills one of the cops,and starts a fire in the bank A is probably guilty of murder, Arson and attempted robbery.

so if while intending to shoot target victim A, the shooter instead accidentally or otherwise shoots innocent non targeted victim B, the intent requirement for Battery is satisfied. Hence Israel, and each and every one of its leaders, might be liable. w/o regards to a showing that the intended target was unharmed, while a different innocent was unintentionally harmed. Its the harm caused by an expression of an intention that produces the liability. It does not matter that the harm happened to an unintended party.

Trespass to chattel, interference with a chattel which results in injury to the possessor or injury to a person or thing in which the possessor of the chattel has a legally protected interest(like life and assets) results in liability for trespass. If Israel without privilege touches a Indian Snake Charmers Snake, causing Snake Charmers Snake to bite a Russian bystander, Israel probably liable for the injury to the Russian bystander.
But there is more, the doctrine of transferred intent applies. Here the intent in four other torts (battery, assault, trespass to land or false imprisonment) can be substituted to satisfy the requisite intent for trespass to chattel. If Israel intends to destroy Syrian dams with weapons and missiles, and instead causes a Syrian response that kills Russian soldiers and planes, the tort would hold Israel liable for the damage to the plane and the deaths of the Russians. IANAL. There is a lot to this intent thing, but generally, I understand, when intent is established, especially if unlawful trespass or criminality is part of the expression of the intentional act, that Intent element in the tort would be satisfied.

The Tort of Extreme and Outrageous conduct; behavior "that reaches beyond all possible bounds of decency; atrocious, utterly intolerable in a civilized community ( such as invading a sovereign nation; attacking its assets and killing its inhabitants). Here the expression of intent is in the outrageous behavior, the persons harmed might not even be known to the person who engaged in the Tort of Extreme and Outrageous conduct.

IANAL and I would appreciate it if a lawyer would make these point clear and clarify my understanding of these principles, especially as they might apply to the situation at hand.
My point here is the intent and transfer of intent principles suggest Israel intended unauthorized trespass, acts of aggression and war, and it is indifferent to liability for the crime or damages that conducting war against Russia was unintended.

Moreover, it seems to me unlikely that Israel would plan an attack, and not coordinate it with Russia, when such an attack was so close to Russian Assets and Russian Personnel. Israel had to know the risk of killing Russians and destroying Russian assets was likely (Scienter?), which suggest to me Israel intended to use Syrian technical limitations as a means to punish Russia for protecting Syria. [ Res ipsa Loquitur comes to mind]. Wonder how a Jewish court and Jewish judge would rule on this one?

[Sep 23, 2018] Russians reiterated the official position that " The blame for the downed Russian plane and for the death of the crew lies entirely on the Israeli side ". ENTIRELY.

Notable quotes:
"... Israel forces should never have entered the Syrian airspace to begin with. Syrians wouldn't then needed to defend themselves. ..."
"... Russians had precise data that showed Israel's F-16 set up the Russian plane to be shot by the S-200. ..."
"... Israelis only gave less than a minute warning. ..."
"... The Russian military man interviewed in the article clearly stated that the only thing that the Russians were waiting to hear from that meeting was Israel recognizing it was to blame. All the rest (data from investigation, blaming Syrians, etc) was useless. Russia had already made up its mind and had its own very detailed data. ..."
"... The interview ends with a question about what will the consequences/reaction be . The reply is ""We are military men. We have the Supreme Commander-in-Chief, we have the Minister of Defense. Whichever order from them we shall receive, such and we will execute". ..."
"... If the order from Shoigu is to deliver S300 anti-missile defence systems to Syria (as the Russian interviewers must surely be expecting), then the actions of the Israeli F-16 fighter pilots will have dealt a severe blow to Israel and Satanyahu's machinations over the years, kissing up to Moscow, will have come to nothing. And 15 Russian military personnel will not have perished in vain. ..."
Sep 23, 2018 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

Nat

September 21, 2018 at 10:20 am
Interesting interview of a member of the Russian delegation about how the meeting between the Russian and Israeli Air Force Commanders went: https://www.kp.ru/daily/26885.7/3928752/

Main points:
– Russians reiterated the official position that " The blame for the downed Russian plane and for the death of the crew lies entirely on the Israeli side ". ENTIRELY.

– Israelis blamed it on the Syrians/Assad.

– Russians rejected this argument, countering with the following points:

Israel forces should never have entered the Syrian airspace to begin with. Syrians wouldn't then needed to defend themselves. Russians had precise data that showed Israel's F-16 set up the Russian plane to be shot by the S-200. Israelis only gave less than a minute warning.

Then concluded with repeating the position "The blame lies entirely on the Israeli side ".

– Israeli said their data showed their F-16 didn't set up the Russian plane, and was in fact back in Israel by the time the plane was shot down.

– Russians flat out said their had contradictory data and relied on them and on the Syrian data.

– Israeli played ignorance about the one minute warning. Supposedly they weren't aware Russian planes were flying at that time and needed warning.

– Russians said they could not believe the F-16 radars did not see the Russian plane, and went back to their three points (Anyway F-16 had no right to be in Syria, Russian had data that showed F-16 set up their plane and rules of pre-warning were not followed).

The Russian military man interviewed in the article clearly stated that the only thing that the Russians were waiting to hear from that meeting was Israel recognizing it was to blame. All the rest (data from investigation, blaming Syrians, etc) was useless. Russia had already made up its mind and had its own very detailed data.

The interview ends with a question about what will the consequences/reaction be . The reply is ""We are military men. We have the Supreme Commander-in-Chief, we have the Minister of Defense. Whichever order from them we shall receive, such and we will execute".

Jen September 21, 2018 at 1:51 pm

If the order from Shoigu is to deliver S300 anti-missile defence systems to Syria (as the Russian interviewers must surely be expecting), then the actions of the Israeli F-16 fighter pilots will have dealt a severe blow to Israel and Satanyahu's machinations over the years, kissing up to Moscow, will have come to nothing. And 15 Russian military personnel will not have perished in vain.

And FUKUS, who had been expecting a Russian attack on the French frigate the Auvergne so that Article 5 in the NATO treaty could be invoked, or new sanctions against Russia declared and passed, will be left with egg on their faces.

The Russian reaction to the whole incident seems very like its earlier reaction when the IOC banned Russia from sending its team to the Winter Olympics earlier this year: go along with the ban, do the opposite of what your enemies expect you to do (which is to react in the heat of the moment and do something in the short-term that you will later regret in the long-term) and put your enemies in positions where they not only have to justify their stance against you but fail spectacularly in doing so because their stance was based on lies and spite in the first place.

moscowexile September 21, 2018 at 9:21 pm
And yet on other sites (RI, Sputnik, RT) many are howling about "Vlad" the Coward.

I think many who hold such an opinion are, if not trolls, then 12-year-old American (USA) kids (mostly), who were weaned on computer video games such as "Modern Warfare" and who have been imbued with the notion that "might is right" and that "God is on our side" etc.

Patient Observer September 21, 2018 at 11:27 am
No climb down and I suspect the Russian military position was approved by the Big Guy.
Mark Chapman September 21, 2018 at 11:45 am
Nonsense – Russia is weak, and this amounts to an approval of Israeli attacks by Putin.

Those F-16's must be faster than any other version built, or else the S-200 has an ungodly long time of flight, if the Syrians fired it against an attack but the Israeli planes were already back over their home base by the time the missile reached their previous position. What does the Syrian radar history say?

Nat September 21, 2018 at 12:52 pm
According to the Russians, the Syrian radar history is different from the Israeli version. "- Израильтяне выворачивались: "Когда сирийская армия выпустила ракеты, попавшие в российский самолет, израильские самолеты ВВС уже находились на израильской территории". А с нашей стороны тут же прозвучало, что у нас есть другие данные. Другие документы. Есть они и у сирийского командования ПВО. Тут надо основательно сверить данные. Буквально по минутам и секундам.".

So Russia has the timeline of the events down to the second and all of it shows that the Israeli pilots set the IL-20 under the fire of the Syrian S-200. The Israeli also perfectly know what they did. It looks like Russia is letting the Israeli "investigate" as a way to give Israel a very small window of opportunity to recognize its guilt and take action itself.

Mark Chapman September 21, 2018 at 10:32 pm
I suspected as much; If the Syrian and Russian intercept records agree, then there is a good chance the Israelis faked their radar data and flight records. But then, they fancy themselves the masters of such clever fakes that they can make anyone do what they want them to do.
Nat September 21, 2018 at 1:25 pm
By the way Mark, the Russians had the same reaction you had to the Israeli claim: "Когда они это сказали, наши чуть со стульев не попадали" ("When they said that, our guys in the delegation almost fell off their chairs").
yalensis September 21, 2018 at 2:09 pm
Israelis are acting like some crooked lawyer trying to get their crooked client out on a technicality. "Oh, we didn't know We tried to warn them blah blah blah "
They can blow as much smoke as they like, but the bottom line is, their planes should not be flying over Syria. Period.
Oh, everybody knows the reason they are up there and dropping bombs: Trying to do some harm to Hezbollah. But Hezbollah are invited guests within Syrian space. Israelis are uninvited guests. And everybody knows what Alexander Nevsky had to say about uninvited guests!
Jen September 22, 2018 at 3:16 am
Well that's what you call chutzpah.

[Sep 22, 2018] Downing of Russian Jet Israel Fears Putin Will Clip Its Wings in Syria

Sep 22, 2018 | www.veteranstoday.com

The Russian plane downing incident is not yet settled between Moscow and Jerusalem, despite President Vladimir Putin's relatively forgiving statement and despite Israel's sending its air force commander to Russia on Thursday morning.

... ... ...

Asked Thursday morning whether shooting down the Russian aircraft would affect the Israeli air force's freedom of action over Syria, Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman performed more evasion maneuvers than the Russian Ilyushin pilots did on Monday night. Lieberman, who was interviewed on Army Radio's program "Dekel-Segal," failed to provide a real response. No doubt the party mainly responsible for the incident is Syria, whose air defense operated "unprofessionally and irresponsibly," as Lieberman described it. But Moscow does not appear inclined to forgive – and will likely try to extract practical advantages from Israel's embarrassment.

Israel is convinced it has good explanations for what happened. The air force's inquiry showed that the Syrians launched massive anti-aircraft fire when the Israeli planes were already back in Israel's sky. The warning to the Russians, Israel says, was given in keeping with the time frame agreed upon between the two states since they set up the mechanism to prevent friction between Israeli and Russian aircraft in September 2015.

The Russian plane was shot down mainly because of a communication failure – between Israel and Russia, between the Russian aerial control system or between the Syrians and their Russian patrons. Israel denies the first possibility – and this is probably what the air force chief Maj. Gen. Amikam Norkin told his hosts. Moscow must direct its complaints toward the Syrians. If there's truth in the reports that arrests were carried out in Syria's aerial defense ranks, it appears Russia has been doing that as well. Intelligence Minister Yisrael Katz said on Thursday that Putin refused to answer a call from Syrian President Bashar Assad right after the incident.

Israel hopes the Russians will make do with closing the aerial space for a week, and not impose further restrictions – such as banning Israel from flying near their bases in the north of Syria, in a way that could limit the Israeli presence in Syria's air space to Damascus and south of it. According to foreign media, some of the Israeli air strikes were carried out from a great distance outside Syria's territory. However, such a Russian restriction could spur the Iranians, the Assad regime and Hezbollah to establish an attack-safe space in the north of Syria. In the long run, it could also enable Iran to continue to strengthen its military hold in this region and expand the weapon smuggling operations to Lebanon.

[Sep 22, 2018] An Analysis of the Downing of Russia's Il20 with 15 Onboard - Veterans Today News - Military Foreign Affairs Policy

Sep 22, 2018 | www.veteranstoday.com

https://us-u.openx.net/w/1.0/pd?plm=6&ph=2857f3e0-a998-4d70-b5c1-b19a3d6766a1&gdpr=0

  1. Peter Johnson September 22, 2018 at 3:36 pm It seems to me that the safest place for a small single engine light plane to position itself, once picked up by enemy radar, would be on the far side of a large Soviet-Era 4-engined kerosene-guzzler. A basic heat-seeking Soviet missile like what Syria is probably operating would simply home in on the only heat source it can see -- the big hot target covering the light little jets. Log in to leave a comment
  2. Yaridanjo September 22, 2018 at 1:54 pm This scenario means that the Israelis teamed with the French in an attempt to get the Russians to attack the French frigate. Since France is a NATO. ally, the USA would have to attack the Russians which is what Israel wanted to happen. Again, Edgar Cayce was right about Russia being the 'hope of the world' as Putin did not fall for this trap. Log in to leave a comment
  3. Yaridanjo September 22, 2018 at 1:49 pm Kind of makes sense to me:
    http://82.221.129.208/pages/.yz0.html
    Uh-oh: Analysis indicates France shot down Russian plane ON PURPOSE.
    "That Russia noted French missile launches but didn't say what or who they hit. And before the Russians said anything about the attack the French denied they had any involvement in the attack.
    Instead, Russia went along with the story the U.S. et.al. prepared in advance, which doesn't fit what facts we know about the situation, that Syrian Air Defenses shot down the IL-20 by mistake.
    Both the French denial and the U.S. statements about Syrian air defenses being the culprit came before anything official came from the Russians.
    My comment: This quote is from a caption in the main report, which is not very long and has all the details. I suggest this as a definite read. Key: the Russians confirmed that supplementary friend/foe targeting systems did not fail, even though the S-200 did not have them embedded within the system. The supplemental systems prevented the Syrians from doing the shoot down despite the missile system not having them itself. The supplemental systems confirmed it was not the Syrians that shot it down." Log in to leave a comment

[Sep 22, 2018] Russia has begun stepping up operations off the coast of Syria following the downing of a military aircraft

Sep 22, 2018 | badrepublic.wordpress.com

From Haaretz :

Russia has begun stepping up operations off the coast of Syria following the downing of a military aircraft, media outlets in Cyprus reported on Thursday. Russia reportedly decided to close areas near Cyprus to air, land and sea movement from Thursday until next Wednesday for the sake of military operations. Sources in Israel confirmed the report

An Israel Defense Forces delegation headed by the commander of the air force, Maj. Gen. Amikam Norkin departed Thursday to Moscow to present the findings of its inquiry into the incident.

[Sep 22, 2018] We came within a whisker of WW3, and are probably lucky we can still type

Sep 22, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

peter , Sep 20, 2018 5:51:10 AM | link

< The best explanation I've heard yet is that Israel and the US (who had full knowledge and okayed the raid) expected the Russians to sink the French frigate that was blasting away. Kind of cynical but c'est la vie. Article V would be immediately be invoked and the US and Nato would have their casus bellum to smash Syria and send the Russians packing.>

If it's true then Putin handled things brilliantly. The Israelis have pissed away any existing trust between them and Russia with their one minute warning and did exactly that thing that everybody's going on about, namely hiding behind the IL20 to draw the S200. It's unlikely they'll enjoy the freedom in the future to target Iranian and Hezbollah targets in Syria at their leisure.

Because the false flag was was exposed and then their threat of attack if there was any violence in Idlib was stymied by Putin and Erdo's agreement the US is left with few options. The most obvious one would be a full-on unprovoked attack against Syria. I don't think the American people would be happy about that. They are getting really tired of all the bullshit in the ME.

Please don't give Trump a pass because the boogeyman deep state made him do it. He's the fucking president and they don't get no passes.

cdvision , Sep 20, 2018 11:41:28 AM | link

Peter @71. That's my reading as well. We came within a whisker of WW3, and are probably lucky we can still type. Once the Israelis are put in their place then Putin needs to have a strong word with Trump. And of course the frogs will get payback.

[Sep 22, 2018] Putin Keeps Cool And Averts WWIII As Israeli-French Gamble In Syria Backfires Spectacularly

Sep 22, 2018 | www.zerohedge.com

Authored by Robert Bridge via The Strategic Culture Foundation,

By initiating an attack on the Syrian province of Latakia, home to the Russia-operated Khmeimim Air Base, Israel, France and the United States certainly understood they were flirting with disaster. Yet they went ahead with the operation anyways.

On the pretext that Iran was preparing to deliver a shipment of weapon production systems to Hezbollah in Lebanon, Israeli F-16s, backed by French missile launches in the Mediterranean, destroyed what is alleged to have been a Syrian Army ammunition depot.

What happened next is already well established : a Russian Il-20 reconnaissance aircraft, which the Israeli fighter jets had reportedly used for cover, was shot down by an S-200 surface-to-air missile system operated by the Syrian Army. Fifteen Russian servicemen perished in the incident, which could have been avoided had Israel provided more than just one-minute warning before the attack. As a result, chaos ensued.

Whether or not there is any truth to the claim that Iran was preparing to deliver weapon-making systems to Hezbollah in Lebanon is practically a moot point based on flawed logic. Conducting an attack against an ammunition depot in Syria – in the vicinity of Russia's Khmeimim Air Base – to protect Israel doesn't make much sense when the consequence of such "protective measures" could have been a conflagration on the scale of World War III. That would have been an unacceptable price to achieve such a limited objective, which could have been better accomplished with the assistance of Russia, as opposed to NATO-member France, for example. In any case, there is a so-called "de-confliction system" in place between Israel and Russia designed to prevent exactly this sort of episode from occurring.

And then there is the matter of the timing of the French-Israeli incursion.

Just hours before Israeli jets pounded the suspect Syrian ammunition storehouse, Putin and Turkish President Recep Erdogan were in Sochi hammering out the details on a plan to reduce civilian casualties as Russian and Syrian forces plan to retake Idlib province, the last remaining terrorist stronghold in the country. The plan envisioned the creation of a demilitarized buffer zone between government and rebel forces, with observatory units to enforce the agreement. In other words, it is designed to prevent exactly what Western observers have been fretting about, and that is unnecessary 'collateral damage.'

So what do France and Israel do after a relative peace is declared, and an effective measure for reducing casualties? The cynically attack Syria, thus exposing those same Syrian civilians to the dangers of military conflict that Western capitals proclaim to be worried about.

Israel moves to 'damage control'

Although Israel has taken the rare move of acknowledging its involvement in the Syrian attack, even expressing "sorrow" for the loss of Russian life, it insists that Damascus should be held responsible for the tragedy. That is a highly debatable argument.

By virtue of the fact that the French and Israeli forces were teaming up to attack the territory of a sovereign nation, thus forcing Syria to respond in self-defense, it is rather obvious where ultimate blame for the downed Russian plane lies.

"The blame for the downing of the Russian plane and the deaths of its crew members lies squarely on the Israeli side," Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu said.

"The actions of the Israeli military were not in keeping with the spirit of the Russian-Israeli partnership, so we reserve the right to respond."

Russian President Vladimir Putin, meanwhile, took admirable efforts to prevent the blame game from reaching the boiling point, telling reporters that the downing of the Russian aircraft was the result of "a chain of tragic circumstances, because the Israeli plane didn't shoot down our jet."

Nevertheless, following this extremely tempered and reserved remark, Putin vowed that Russia would take extra precautions to protect its troops in Syria, saying these will be "the steps that everyone will notice."

Now there is much consternation in Israel that the IDF will soon find its freedom to conduct operations against targets in Syria greatly impaired. That's because Russia, having just suffered a 'friendly-fire' incident from its own antiquated S-200 system, may now be more open to the idea of providing Syria with the more advanced S-300 air-defense system.

Earlier this year, Putin and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reached an agreement that prevented those advanced defensive weapons from being employed in the Syrian theater. That deal is now in serious jeopardy. In addition to other defensive measures, Russia could effectively create the conditions for a veritable no-fly zone across Western Syria in that it would simply become too risky for foreign aircraft to venture into the zone.

The entire situation, which certainly did not go off as planned, has forced Israel into damage control as they attempt to prevent their Russian counterparts from effectively shutting down Syria's western border.

On Thursday, Israeli Major-General Amikam Norkin and Brigadier General Erez Maisel, as well as officers of the Intelligence and Operations directorates of the Israeli air force will pay an official visit to Moscow where they are expected to repeat their concerns of "continuous Iranian attempts to transfer strategic weapons to the Hezbollah terror organization and to establish an Iranian military presence in Syria."

Moscow will certainly be asking their Israeli partners if it is justifiable to subject Russian servicemen to unacceptable levels of danger, up to and including death, in order to defend Israeli interests. It remains to be seen if the two sides can find, through the fog of war, an honest method for bringing an end to the Syria conflict, which would go far at relieving Israel's concerns of Iranian influence in the region.


CoCosAB , 1 minute ago

The TERRORISTS keep doing the same **** all the time... And ***** PUTIN keeps cool!

Fecund Stench , 2 minutes ago

'There will, however, be some form of no-fly zone and as Vladimir Putin stated Russia will take "the steps that everyone will notice."'

http://thesaker.is/some-fast-thoughts-on-il-20-andrei-martyanov/

Failure to notice bespeaks complicity in the Ziomedia.

toady , 12 minutes ago

"...if it is justifiable to subject Russian servicemen to unacceptable levels of danger, up to and including death, in order to defend Israeli interests."

Surely a few dozen Russians isn't comparable to all the Jews that died in the holocaust.

Just as all the Jews that died in the holocaust aren't comparable to all the the Russians that died in wwII.

isn't religion and the victim mentality a fun game to play?

JoeTurner , 13 minutes ago

Israel must have its lebensraum.....

bh2 , 45 minutes ago

Putin is not going to initiate WWIII over Syria or any military action within it. The outcome in Syria affects Russian national interests. But unlike Crimea, it does not affect any of Russia's vital national interests.

rejected , 35 minutes ago

If Syria was to shoot down one (1) American jet with one (1) pilot the US would respond like it was Pearl Harbor and Syria for sure isn't vital to America's national interests unless one considers results like Libya a national interest.

rejected , 1 hour ago

I seriously doubt Putin will allow the S-300 to Syria. Like the US, Russia is controlled by the 5th column Jews inside Russia itself except the control is not as complete as in the US. The Russian plane is Russia's USS Liberty.... and it is possible, and IMO that it was France that shot down the plane. The fact that they fired missiles at the same time and that has disappeared down the memory hole is very suspicious.

The West is out of control They talk International law but consider them selves above it. Israel, France, UK, US have no 'right' to attack Syria. They have no right to be within Syrian borders. They are now all allied with the terrorists and provide them with weapons. Israel actually provides for their wounds at Israeli hospitals.

By the old definition of terrorist, it is the West that fits the description.

As for Mr. Putin,,, He has done what was unthinkable a short time ago. He has allowed the murder of Russians. Not once,,, not twice,,, but now three times with only a whimper. He actually defended the aggressors this time. This will only serve to make them double down. If any more Russians are murdered it will be he who is guilty by lack of action. Even Somalia fought back when the US tried an attack.

The author here defends Putin as acting with a cool head as the author, like so many cowards thee days, dismisses those fifteen lives. He will also be responsible when the next batch of Russians are sacrificed for world peace as the Western marauders, the US especially, murders their way to world domination like Germany's Hitler and France's Napoleon.

It was Russia that saved the world from those two dictators and is why Russia stands proud today. It is Russia's history to savagely defend Russians and Russia. Today with thousands of Russians killed by Ukrainian Nazis supported and armed by the West (MAGA) and now Russians killed in Syria by the West with little to no response from Russia other than "Its against international law" and authors like this that nonchalantly discard Russian lives as necessary for world peace.

Mr. Putin just needs to hand over the keys to Russia,,, for world peace of course.

[Sep 21, 2018] One must ask why Putin is acting this way.

Sep 21, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

[Sep 21, 2018] Israeli F-16s Scrambled to Cover Behind the Russian Il-20 Because They Had Been Painted by Syrian Air Defense Radars

Sep 21, 2018 | russia-insider.com

And so it starts. Russia must attack Israel, no -- she must obliterate it, Putin is "soft", the world is coming to an end, Zionists are in control of Kremlin, Russia turns another cheek. And on, and on, and on. The chorus of noble warriors with the evils of Zionism is getting louder with each day. Behind this hysteria surrounding the tragedy of Russian VKS' IL-20 somehow crucial and widely publicized news have been ignored completely. It is no surprise they were ignored by all kinds of "specialists" in strategy, politics, and armchair strategists (I am one myself). The news are pretty simple. Lt. General Alexander Ionov, former Deputy Chief of Main Staff of Russian Air Force from 1991 through 2001, stated to popular Russian media Zvezda that it is guaranteed that Syrian Air Defense forces were not provided with compatible IFF equipment and codes .

For those who don't know what IFF (Interrogator Friend-Foe) is -- it is electronic system which provides both a defense against friendly fire and easy radar identification of friendly forces. On older radar friendly forces would usually be marked with arches (below or above) radar marks of the targets and that is how one knows how not to shoot at them. The IFF technology is extremely sensitive as are the "codes" on which it runs. It wasn't provided, and for a good reason, to Syrian Forces. So, the question, in this case which will be asked by laymen is: but what about "full integration" of Russian and Syrian Air Defenses. It is a legitimate question.

... ... ...

Reaction of Israel following the events is telling -- she went into the full damage control mode with Netanyahu urgently calling Vladimir Putin. He offered the Commander of Israeli Air Force to be immediately on his way to Moscow, all diplomatic, informational, government channels between Israel and Russia got immediately engaged.

This was a very telling sign of a real panic and confusion on the Israeli side which also immediately offered condolences. This is not an act of war, as many would love it to be, some out of often justified hatred of Israel hoping for Russia to dispose of this "evil", others purely out of adrenalin rush in anticipation of TV picture of people killing each other.

But the issue of interaction between Russia and Syrian forces is real and it is not easily addressed for a number of purely military and cultural reasons. But some conclusions can already be made:

1. There will be no "annihilation" of Israel, nor will there be any shooting war between Russia and Jewish State as many would love and lust it to be;

2. There will, however, be some form of no-fly zone and as Vladimir Putin stated Russia will take " the steps that everyone will notice ." Obviously this important statement by the head of Russian State got drowned in the ocean of rage and speculations, and confusion I may add, but this has become a familiar pattern by now.

3. Issue of ROE and interaction -- the most important one. Specialists must review protocols and tactical procedures. Engagement caveats must be strictly enforced.

... ... ....

In the end, this tragedy, should serve as a real serious lesson and, in a military sense a warning that one better stick to the agreements or things may spiral out of control very fast . Israel decided that it is allowed to break agreements. Israel should ask Turkey what happens when one does Russia wrong -- Turkish Air Force knows it too well after shooting down Russian SU-24. It got grounded. Now Turkey is a situational ally of Iran and Russia in the region. As per larger geopolitical sense -- just wait and see. But I made myself explicit on that matter not for once. I might as well repeat myself -- dogs bark, but caravan passes on .

[Sep 21, 2018] Setting up the Russian Il-20 to Be Shot Down Is a Win-Win for Israel by Marko Marjanović

This story looks more and more strange: Il-20 was a military plane. why russina interceptors were not in the air immediately after Israeli planes approached Il-20? Were everybody drunk in the command center?
Sep 18, 2018 | russia-insider.com

Russia has no good options here. Russian military retaliation brings the absurdly pro-Israeli American public opinion and Washington establishment into play. Doing nothing signals weakness and invites more provocations

It's technically possible the Russian Il-20 surveillance plane was downed only as a result of stupidity and incompetence on the Israeli and Syrian side, and without a devious Israeli plan to set it up. Militaries almost always are among the stupidest and incompetent of all government bureaucracies so it's in the realm of possibility.

Nonetheless, the fact that Israel this time failed to give adequate warning to Russia is a strong indicator the IDF at the very least wanted to use the Russian plane there to cover their fighters, which it must have known would put it at a certain amount of risk. If so then I think Israel may have done it in safety of knowing that if a Russian plane is blown out of the sky by Syrians -- even if the IDF is ultimately responsible -- it's a win-win for Israel.

Think about it. Just hours after calling off the Idlib offensive in a massive concession to Erdogan and indirectly to the West, Putin is repaid by a Russian military plane being shot down as result of an Israeli attack on Syria. Talk about egg on face. When Turkey ambushed and shot down a Russian Su-24 on the Syrian-Turkish border in November 2015, Moscow limited its response to economic sanctions. This eventually helped moderate the extent of Turkish ambition in Syria. End to tomato imports however won't do much to impress Israel.

If Putin sticks to economic and diplomatic means of retaliation alone Russia will look comparatively weak. This will embolden the hawks in Washington who will have an easier time selling the idea pushing Russia around in Syria and hitting Assad does not actually risk WW3 – thus increasing the chances of what Israel really wants in Syria; more chaos and for the war to never end.

At the same time, if Russia retaliates militarily instead, this – thanks to the unparalleled amount of sympathy Israel enjoys in the US – also boosts the likelihood of what Israel wants. Imagine for example that Russia declares its forces in Syria will from now on under certain conditions actively participate in the defense of host country against Israeli airstrikes and actually fired against them the next time. What effect would that have? A likely result would be a war fever in the US. Wacky Protestant Evangelicals, Russia-hating Liberals and Trumpian Israel-Firsters could all unite under the banner of protecting tiny, pluck, democratic Israel from the menacing Russian bear. It would be like the narrative on the 2008 Georgian-Russian war (in which Georgia attacked the even tinnier South Ossetia along with Russian peacekeepers) except it would resonate far more so because it's sainted Israel.

For Russia its US relations would deteriorate even more, more US financial would be a certainty (it already is, but the pace would be ramped up), and the chance of US muscle stretching in Syria and the associated dangers of a US-Russian clash in the region would go up. Meanwhile for Israel the result would be a flurry of popular and diplomatic support from the Americans with a possible bump in military aid. Not a bad deal at all huh?

Inevitably whatever happens some will end up criticizing Putin for not doing enough to restore Russia's military honor. Other will question the wisdom of setting up shop in Syria in 2015 when Israelis and the Americans were already deeply involved in the conflict militarily and involving Russia in this dangerous mess in the first place. Both will be correct.

Correct also will be those who will note that Russia's intervention (any innocent civilians it killed or maimed aside) in Syria did a lot of good, but that neither Russia's nor Syria's position is all-powerful and that sometimes it's wiser to swallow your pride and keep your eyes on the finish line.

Of course, others will say that with Idlib offensive postponed and potentially called off for good, Putin may already be showing signs he may be happy, or may think it wiser, to leave things only half-finished.

[Sep 21, 2018] Alksnis question: "and the death of Il-20 and its crew? The defense Ministry tells us stories that Israeli fighters were hiding behind the Il-20, attacking Latakia, and so the Syrians shot down our plane. Why wasn't the Il-20 covered by our fighters?

Sep 21, 2018 | www.kp.md

Israeli F-16 really " hid " behind our Il-20. Not a fairy tale. We and the Syrians have documents of objective control. But "why Il-20 is not covered by our fighters" - this is now the leadership of the Ministry of defense and understands... It is a reasonable question.

On the one hand, we clearly stepped on the same rake.

And on the other Il-20 worked in the area of reach of our base in Hamim and his defense was enough of the modern s-400.

But the fact of the matter is that no one attacked him.

This is a tragic coincidence, multiplied by the provocation of the Israelis. I think conclusions will be drawn. And, in the near future.

[Sep 21, 2018] Great Interview on the Il-20 Shootdown With a Russian Air Defense Colonel by Viktor Baranets

A better translation of KP article
This story looks more and more strange: Il-20 was a military plane. Why Russian interceptors were not in the air immediately after Israeli planes approached Il-20? Were everybody drunk in the command center? Or have orders to stand down like in 9-11.
Notable quotes:
"... - What in your opinion, as a professional, could be the cause of the error of the Syrian air defense that brought down our IL-20? ..."
"... - By the way, does our Il have a system warning of a missile attack from the ground or from the air? ..."
"... - Why then did our Il not make an anti-missile maneuver, at least? ..."
"... - And how do you picture it? ..."
"... "But they say that we had such a deal with the Israelis as well?" ..."
"... - What kind of plane is it, IL-20? ..."
"... - What tasks could our Il-20 solve in the eastern part of the city, where he died? ..."
"... - Information has already leaked that the IL-20 allegedly tried to minimize the effectiveness of Israeli missile attacks on Latakia. Where are our military facilities? ..."
Sep 21, 2018 | russia-insider.com
- What in your opinion, as a professional, could be the cause of the error of the Syrian air defense that brought down our IL-20?

- There is in aviation such a tricky reception - "air camouflage". It seems that the Israelites used it. They gathered over our huge IL-20 on top of a sort of "stack", because of which the marks from both our reconnaissance aircraft and the Israeli F-16 merged. And the Syrian S-200 could not strike at them at that moment, since the "own-alien" identification system, sewn into the brains of anti-aircraft missile systems, did not allow it. But this system is only set up to prevent the rocket from launching on its own, but when it is already released, it can not be re-targeted.

However, the rocket itself is so arranged that its homing head catches a stronger signal. And the IL-20 reflecting the surface is much larger than that of the fighter. Naturally, the missile grabs the most powerful target and goes to it .

And then when the Israeli fighters changed course, on the screen of the C-200 there were marks of "stranger". And the Syrian air defense opened fire. Here, I am sure, our plane and ran into a "friendly" missile.

In addition, do not forget that the S-200 is an old weapon. And the training of Syrian air defense specialists, to put it mildly, often leaves much to be desired ...

- By the way, does our Il have a system warning of a missile attack from the ground or from the air?

- Of course have.

- Why then did our Il not make an anti-missile maneuver, at least?

- And how do you imagine such a maneuver of a huge airy machine? In which the area of ​​only one wing is 14 square meters! This is not a fighter that can tinker away and escape from the enemy's rocket ...

In any case, the perpetrators of the tragedy are the Israelis. They provoked her. And they must bear responsibility for this.

- And how do you picture it?

- Simply ritual statements, of course, will be too little. Our loyalty was dismissed by the Israelis! In a day they freely invade the airspace of sovereign Syria . And when we are asked, why our air defense in Syria allowed this, we somehow answer that we cover only our bases Khmeimim, Tartous and our own naval group in the Mediterranean.

After this tragedy, it would be logical to declare that we close the sky of Syria from uninvited guests and we will knock them down as enemy planes. In this case, of course, to close the space over Syria we would need a three times denser concentration of air defense systems.

Well, as for the armies and their allies, we allowed them to fly only in strictly defined zones and they do not yet poke their nose into other areas.

"But they say that we had such a deal with the Israelis as well?"

- Yes there is. Israelis bypass our facilities. They mainly "hammer" their enemy - "Hezbollah", but at the same time they strike not only military but also civilian Syrian targets. There are already a lot of sacrifices. It is time to put them in their place.

- What kind of plane is it, IL-20?

"Oh, I can tell you about it all day!" Both in the school, and in the academy passed the exams. Yes, and in Syria in the "womb" climbed ... But briefly, it is a plane of electronic intelligence and electronic warfare.

It is equipped with an infrared scanner, optical sensors. There is also a lateral radar.

There is a station of detailed electronic intelligence "Kvadrat-2" and radio intercept equipment "Cherry". At our VKS such planes of pieces 20. And all of them have passed a deep modernization. Our "Ilyusha" have well proven themselves in Syria, coordinating the attacks of the Russian Air Force on terrorists.

He also has another unique "chip" - he can correct the flight of the cruise missiles "Caliber" when they approach the target ... Do you remember the launch of our missiles from the water area of ​​the Caspian Sea? Their attacks would be less accurate, if not for the high-class work of the IL-20 operators. I will say more. Our ground-attack planes and bombers are precisely reaching the target, also with the help of IL-20 equipment. But enemy locators do not see them at this time, its anti-aircraft missile systems simply do not observe anything on their screens, thanks to the operation of the radio-electronic countermeasure equipment installed on our reconnaissance aircraft ...

What else? Still, the IL-20 has four powerful engines. They can provide the aircraft with a speed of up to 700 kilometers per hour. Empty it weighs somewhere under 34 tons. Can climb to a height of 10 kilometers ...

- What tasks could our Il-20 solve in the eastern part of the city, where he died?

- Such a universal machine is capable of solving many problems - from opening the air situation to jamming ...

- Information has already leaked that the IL-20 allegedly tried to minimize the effectiveness of Israeli missile attacks on Latakia. Where are our military facilities?

- I do not exclude that it had such a task.

[Sep 21, 2018] "The-French-frigate-shot-it-down" is yet another blatant diversion/dilution/dispersion narrative from the Masters of Narrative and their minions elsewhere and here, who know better than the Russian MoD

Sep 21, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

stonebird , Sep 20, 2018 9:42:35 AM | link

Peter @70
Here is the link to the Luongo article where he explains the idea that it was the French Frigate (L'Auvergne) which fired missiles, (Where? Were they the ones that shot down the Russian plane?) and who was to be the bait for a missile riposte by the Syrians. In order to provoke a NATO article 5 attack.
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/09/19/israel-failed-attempt-start-wwiii-beginning-end-syria.html

I have seen one tweet (unconfirmed) that says that Putin has closed air and Sea space off Syrian coastline. Logical, if they are looking for the remains of their plane with highly sensitive electronics on board. Also I suspect that this "exclusion zone" may become permanent.
------
General note; The above article is also on Zero hedge BUT; comments don't come up. I hope you are all aware that comments can be silenced at anytime and not necessarily by the web site itself. Happened to me about two months ago (FT). On contacting them, it "appears" it was due to something in my computer ad blocker. For various reasons this is probably not the reason. See also what happened to Paveway - I think censorship is far more prevalent than we assume. (Paveway; my sympathy, I found it was the frustration of not being able to post - that was difficult to support !)
-----
@85
It is also possible that the French were suckered in, easy enough probably to send a message saying "all systems go for an attack on Syria", by whoever wanted them to fire. ie Israel or US.

(@83. I had written the post above before your post "surfaced" and I saw it.)


John Gilberts , Sep 20, 2018 9:44:24 AM | link

Gift to the Sultan - Text of Russia-Turkey Agreement of September 17, 2018, Establishing Turkish Protectorate of Idlib

http://johnhelmer.net/gift-to-the-sultan-text-of-russia-turkey-agreement-of-september-17-2018-establishing-turkish-protectorate-of-idlib/#more-19788

Kiza , Sep 20, 2018 10:05:16 AM | link
"The-French-frigate-shot-it-down" is yet another blatant diversion/dilution/dispersion narrative from the Masters of Narrative and their minions elsewhere and here, who know better than the Russian MoD. Far from a binary choice in the movie, for each red pill the pill-pushers push hundreds of blue ones.
stonebird , Sep 20, 2018 10:12:38 AM | link
The comment on Putin closing Syrian air and Sea space comes from Haaretz, not an anonymous tweet - sorry.
Russ , Sep 20, 2018 10:34:43 AM | link
Posted by: xLemming | Sep 20, 2018 7:22:07 AM | 78

Zionism has NOTHING to do with Judaism!

Yes, Zionism started out an atheist movement with a Dawkinsesque contempt for Judaism. The Zionists only glommed onto Judaism in 1967 when they saw how a religious angle could enhance their war propaganda.

Sunny Runny Burger , Sep 20, 2018 10:57:50 AM | link
Everyone (including me) assumes way too much but I can't help interpret some recent stuff I read elsewhere (not here) as to imply that everyone is encouraged to object to a white lie so as to possibly encourage others to also consider it to be a white lie in the best interests of the entire world. So I'll do just that.

Spudski & Tony Cartalucci and then also pogohere, viking3, and Kondor speaks sense, at least from this perspective.

I feel no obligation to believe we know the truth about what happened nor do I believe the Russians truly expect anyone with critical thinking skills to necessarily believe that the fake jews (by any name or entity) managed to do anything but send some missiles into Syria. How close or far from the truth such an official line is doesn't seem all that important if what was at stake was a provocation and escalation into a much bigger war. Russia obviously and sanely does not want a bigger war because they know it will easily be the biggest and last war.

If the "dragging missiles" story is what it takes to do so then so be it. The story seems to require that:
- the missile IFF is locked on launch rather than actively reassessed until impact
- there is no destruction mechanism from missile control
- the missile doesn't distinguish between a fighter jet at some speed and a slow plane
- the missile potentially (depending on whether those jets buzzed the EW plane closely) didn't distinguish between chasing something far away and something suddenly being right in front of it
- the EW plane was powerless against an old-ish or at least export version of a missile produced by themselves
- the EW plane does not have a range of flares and evasive procedures
- the EW plane couldn't EW it out of existence
- the EW plane wasn't aware of the situation
- the EW plane wasn't aware of being locked on by the missile at any point
- the EW plane wasn't aware of the possibility of such
- the Russian (not Syrian) control of the integrated systems (both Russian and Syrian) as well as the superior Russian situational awareness in the region's airspace just sat idly by and didn't do anything between the launch and the missile coming anywhere close to the vicinity of the EW plane

To me it's a fucking tall order to believe all those things when instead it could be -- as examples -- :
- the fake jews shot it down
- the boiling frogs shot it down (figuratively run by a fake jew)
- the fake americans shot it down (figuratively run by a fake jew)
- the poor brits shot it down (figuratively run by a fake jewess)
- someone else did something
- something entirely different happened

At this point I would like to point out that even some fake jews are very nice people, in fact superbly awesomely nice people much nicer than me, but at the same time some other fake jews (like those "leaders" alluded to) obviously aren't anywhere close to nice, or sane, or intelligent, or even have a shred of a sense of actual self-preservation never mind a thought for the rest of us all.

So no I don't believe the Russians believe that anyone believes they actually want anyone to believe that story :D

Instead I think they want people like me and at least some others here to believe that they do know we won't believe it and that we'll instead believe it is whatever was required for Russia to salvage whatever they could from whatever actually happened. To make thing better from a bad situation rather than worse.

And then also that they want to encourage us to believe that and tell others we believe that by claiming they don't want us to do so...

And that is what I'll believe, but I might of course be utterly wrong :D

[Sep 20, 2018] AFP published a denial by France that it launched any missiles

Sep 20, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

karlof1 , Sep 19, 2018 3:40:51 PM | link

Peter AU 1 @10--

AFP published a denial by France that it launched any missiles. Since Russia doesn't make false accusations like the Outlaw US Empire and its vassals, the French are likely lying. Viewing all the radar telemetry as specialists do would detail the entire attack--and there were numerous sea and land based Russian radars in action that evening. A question I've asked and not provided an answer as yet is related to many saying the flight plan of the IL-20 was known in advance so the attack could be prepared in advance: Was the IL-20 flight plan public knowledge? I know there're websites dedicated to tracking airplane flights, but do they include military aircraft (I looked at Plane Flight Tracker and Flight Radar24, which only seem to track civilian craft)?

Does knowing there was a deception plan involving the IL-20 made ahead with NATO collusion make any real difference in either the short or long term? Perhaps for the long term as the faulty policy's already been modified by establishing the no fly zone.

[Sep 20, 2018] If the military deconfliction agreement is similar to or the same as that with the US, then Israel should have given advance notice through that deconfliction channel. Going by statements by the Russian military and Putin, Israel has abused this agreement as did the US in their attack on Dier Ezzor.

Sep 20, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

Peter AU 1 , Sep 19, 2018 4:18:54 PM | link

karlof1 16
From what I have read recently, Russia has a military deconfliction hotline with Israel the same as they do with US. With the US, this has involved giving each other advanced notice of flight plans and targets within Syria. The Israeli planes were in international airspace at the time, but was the IL in Syrian airspace when the attack took place. Russia may well have been giving Israel notice of Russian flight plans within Syria as part of the deconfliction agreement.
If the military deconfliction agreement is similar to or the same as that with the US, then Israel should have given advance notice through that deconfliction channel. Going by statements by the Russian military and Putin, Israel has abused this agreement as did the US in their attack on Dier Ezzor.


karlof1 , Sep 19, 2018 5:37:28 PM | link

Peter @22--

Info being disseminated/obtained through that channel was one of my unwritten possibilities, and it's quite likely that the IL-20 did a routine patrol along a similar route daily thus very predictable. Not much remaining to speculate on now. The policy's been drastically modified and announced for all to see as promised. I doubt if it will deter Zionist attacks against Syria from Jordanian airspace, but we'll need to just wait and see about that. If the French did indeed lie about their involvement, I'd expect their ambassador to Russia being called to the Kremlin to explain, but I haven't read any notice of that. IMO, this horse's now beaten to a pulp. At least we learned how many refused to see that Shoigu and Putin were on the same page thus revealing their previously hidden biases.

Peter AU 1 , Sep 19, 2018 6:38:00 PM | link
karlof1 30

The response by some of the regulars was disapointing... same happened in the leadup to the southwest offensive when many believed Putin had 'sold out' to Netanyahu.
I researched Putin in the months after MH17. He now has a long track record and never changes. The only thing predictable about Putin in a situation like this is he will pull off what nobody predicts.

oldenyoung , Sep 19, 2018 6:38:34 PM | link
finally got to the bottom of what i wanted to know...a ranking colonel in Russian military(2nd in command at AD system in HMeimim) gave a briefing(pain to translate)...

The s200 in syria does have a rudementary IFF system...but once it has locked a foe target and is launched, it cannot be retargeted...it chases its foe...the IDF pilots ran behind the IL20 and matched speed once they had been launched on...the s200 followed them and detonated on the largest piece in its target area, the IL20...just like a decoy...
so...the IDF provoked an s200 launch by attacking syria SAA positions and a government production facility, and then pulled in behind the IL20 to save their own asses...intentionally destroying it...
that is an outright blatant act of war...no wonder Ru military is MAD...they know what happened

regards

OY

spudski , Sep 19, 2018 7:26:10 PM | link
FWIW, Tony Cartalucci posted an article yesterday on NEO re the latest developments in Syria.

He concludes with the following:

"It is not to Russia's advantage to sink French frigates or expose the full capabilities of its air defense systems to shoot down a handful of Israeli warplanes to satisfy public desires for immediate revenge or to protect nonexistent notions of Russian invincibility.

Instead, it is to Russia's advantage to simply win the proxy war in Syria. Just as in 2015 when calls for immediate revenge were made regarding a Turkish-downed Russian warplane, Syria, Russia, and Iran will continue moving forward – slowly and methodically – to secure Syrian territory from foreign proxies seeking to divide and destroy the country, springboard into Iran, and eventually work their way into southern Russia.

Avenging serial provocations is infinitesimally less important than overall victory in Syria. The fate of Syria as a nation, Iran's security and stability as a result, and even Russia's own self-preservation is on the line. The awesome responsibility of those who have planned and executed Syria's incremental victory over proxy forces backed by the largest, most powerful economies and military forces on Earth could greatly benefit from a public able to understand the difference between short-term gratification and long-term success and how the former almost certainly and recklessly endangers the latter."

The greatest possible "revenge" to exact upon those who inflicted this war upon the Syrian people, is their absolute and total defeat.
https://journal-neo.org/2018/09/18/syrian-russian-victory-only-way-to-avenge-israeli-french-strikes/

oldenyoung , Sep 19, 2018 7:31:28 PM | link
smoothie on his blog has 2 links to the briefing by the 2nd in command of the AD battalion...i have trouble posting html links that i have had to translate...
regards

OY

oldenyoung , Sep 19, 2018 7:36:21 PM | link
http://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2018/09/some-fast-thoughts-on-il-20.html

but here is the link to smoothies

regards

OY

[Sep 20, 2018] Decoding Putin's Response To Attack In Syria by Tom Luongo

Russia needs to be very careful as NATO has huge military advantage int he area.
Sep 20, 2018 | www.zerohedge.com

Authored by Tom Luongo,

The fog of war and geopolitics makes initial responses to the attack on Russian and Syrian forces recently difficult to assess.

Russian President Vladimir Putin's response seemed timid and was at odds with statements from his Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu and more recent statements from Russia's Foreign Ministry.

Putin backed off on explicitly blaming Israel for the downing of the IL-20 ELINT aircraft which killed 15 Russian servicemen, but made it clear he holds them responsible for the attack as a whole.

My thoughts on what the goals of the attack were are the focus of my latest article at Strategic Culture Foundation.

It was obvious to me that this attack was designed as a provocation to start World War III in Syria and blame the Russians for attacking a NATO member without proper cause , since the Syrian air defense forces were the ones responsible for shooting down the plane.

Lying us into war is a time-honored American political tradition, whether we're talking Fort Sumter, Pearl Harbor or the Gulf of Tonkin. All of these incidents were avoidable by Presidents intent on getting into a conflict while simultaneously playing the victim card by getting the other side to shoot first.

I'm sorry if that is a controversial statement but the historical record on them is very, very clear.

From Strategic Culture:

The setup is pretty clear. Israel and France coordinated an attack on multiple targets within Syria without US involvement but with absolute US knowledge of the operation to provoke Russia into going off half-cocked by attacking the inconsequential French frigate which assisted Israel's air attack.

Any denunciation of sinister intent by Israeli Defense Forces is hollow because if they had not intended to provoke a wider conflict they would have given Russia more than one minute to clear their planes from the area .

That would constitute an attack on a NATO member state and require a response from NATO, thereby getting the exact escalation needed to continue the war in Syria indefinitely and touch off WWIII.

This neatly bypasses any objections to a wider conflict by President Trump who would have to respond militarily to a Russian attack on a NATO ally. It also would reassert NATO's necessity in the public dialogue, further marginalizing Trump's attacks on it and any perceived drive of his for peace.

Now take that basic, honestly off-the-cuff, analysis of what happened and mix it with a skillful bit of decoding of Russia's statements on the attacks by Fort Russ News and you have, I think, a pretty clear picture of what the intent was and why P utin seemed to downplay the event calling it a " chain of tragic circumstances, because the Israeli plane didn't shoot down our jet."

My hat is off to Joachin Flores for his analysis here. It is long and involved and worth your time to read. I will summarize it here. His thesis? Putin is trying to save Russian/French relations by not naming France as the culprit for the lost plane and the 15 men.

That Russia noted French missile launches but didn't say what or who they hit. And before the Russians said anything about the attack the French denied they had any involvement in the attack.

Instead, Russia went along with the story the U.S. et.al. prepared in advance, which doesn't fit what facts we know about the situation, that Syrian Air Defenses shot down the IL-20 by mistake.

Both the French denial and the U.S. statements about Syrian air defenses being the culprit came before anything official came from the Russians.

This is a classic "preparing the narrative" technique used by the West all the time. Seize the story, plant seeds of doubt and put your opponent into a rhetorical box they can't wiggle out of with the truth.

MH-17, Skripal, Crimea, chemical weapons attacks in Ghouta, Douma etc. These operations are scripted.

And Flores is exactly right that this script was going off as planned with one small problem.

The Russians went along with it.

Russia, and Putin, did the one thing that makes this whole thing look like a frame job, it accepted the narrative of Israeli malfeasance in the interest of stopping a wider conflict by accusing and/or attacking a NATO member, France.

Flores makes the salient point that the S-200 friendly fire scenario is highly unlikely. That, in fact, France shot down the plane, was prepared to accept blame (which it did by preemptively denying it was involved) and destroy what was left of Russian/French relations.

Now Russia can use the excuse of Israeli betrayal as justification for upgrading Syria's air defenses. Citing the very thing that caused the tragic death of their soldiers, antiquated air defense systems which didn't properly identify friend from foe.

It may be a lie, but since when did that matter in geopolitics?

And as I point out in my other article

This is Israel's worst nightmare. A situation where any aerial assault on targets within Syria would be suicide missions, puncturing the myth of the Israeli air force's superiority and shifting the delicate balance of power in Syria decidedly against them.

This is why Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu worked Putin so hard over the last two years. But, this incident wipes that slate clean. This was a cynical betrayal of Putin's trust and patience. And Israel will now pay the price for their miscalculation.

Giving Syria S-300's does not avenge the fifteen dead Russian soldiers. Putin will have to respond to that in a more concrete way to appease the hardliners in his government and at home. His patience and seeming passivity are being pushed to their limit politically. This is, after all, a side benefit to all of this for the neoconservative and globalist hawks in D.C., Europe and Tel Aviv.

But, the real loss here for Israel will be Russia instituting a no-fly zone over western Syria. Any less response from Putin will be seized upon by and the situation will escalate from here. So, Putin has to deploy S-300's here. And once that happens, the real solution to Syria begins in earnest.

And it means that if the FUKUS alliance -- France, the U.K. and the U.S. -- want an invasion of Syria they will have to do so openly without a casus belli. And this is something we have avoided for five years now.

Because lying us into war is how we maintain the illusion of fighting wars of conquest under the rubric of Christian Just War Theory which supports our national spirit of manifest destiny.

* * *

Join my Patreon because you don't like war-mongers.


turkey george palmer , 15 hours ago

Ok, what of the assets mixed in with the idlib bunch. The FUKUS has pretty valuable people in that group and maybe some information the west dos not want made available to Russia. I think Putin can get some of those people and use them.

There's some other things the US has over there that they don't want anyone to be able to show on TV

africoman , 18 hours ago

With the downing of the IL-20 ELINT aircraft which killed 15 Russian servicemen, by the aggressions of Israhell

Putin's response seemed timid/weak and was at odds with strong statements from his Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu who put the blame directly on Israhell condemning and more recent statements from Russia's Foreign Ministry.

Putin backed off on explicitly blaming Israel, saying it was chain of reaction that caused the situation etc instead of pining it to that parasite

Yes, i observed the tondown by Putin, maybe we don't know the big boys like Putin knew what is at stake than 15 Russian service men,RIP

It seems to me Putin/Russia is in the game for greater good than such provocation by the middle finger and are paying dearly.

Russia didn't stick her nake for nothing as i said above,geopolitics and long term national interest etc

The attack by Israhell came just after the "Idlib liberation deconfliction zone" deal reached with Russia/Putin & Turkey/Erdogan after many hours of talk

That was something, not seen/wanted by the enemy of Syria.

So it was expected, provokation?

Maybe Putin's answer/response not verbally, it would gonna come practically, by ratcheting up the defensive shield of Russian position and eventually upgrading Syrian air defense, as both are now targeted if they pursue liberating Idlib from the filthy jihadist infestations, including Iran.

The USA/UK warned Russia/Syria/Iran if they dare touch their 'rebel boys' then we will respond UNSC dramatic talk on which what i found it interesting was that

the Syrian ambassador to UN,Dr.Bashar Jaafari exposed their hypocrisy asking the absurdity that if they will let say 15,000 'rebels' aka terrorist in manchester city doing terrorism and they will let Russia wanted to do same.

So i see toning down of Vlad is good in avoiding another provocation by Israhell/USA

One can see, Israhell blamed Syria right, then if Syria increased her ability of defense then that will be seen as danger/aggression by Israhell

that is the statu quo there, criminals

OverTheHedge , 20 hours ago

There is another interpretation, over at MoonOfAlabama, which seems to be more sensible than the doom-laden war-mongering rhetoric in this article.

As explained at this blog: http://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2018/09/some-fast-thoughts-on-il-20.html

1. Israel and Russia have a deconfliction agreement, so Russia would have notified Israel about its IL-20 flight plans.

2. Israel would have agreed not to have fighter aircraft in that area, as part of the agreement.

3. Israeli fighter planes used the IL-20 to mask their run in, which is a breach of the agreement, and just rude, frankly. Israel appears to believe that agreements don't apply.

4. The Syrian air defence saw the Israeli planes, targeted and locked on. Panic in the cockpit.

5. The Israeli pilot(s) used the bulk of the IL-20 to mask their radar reflection, and the S-200 missile, being old and dim, went for the biggest radar cross-section. In other words, the Israeli pilot saved his life by sacrificing the russian plane. Note that the missile itself doesn't do IFF, and can't be recalled or retargeted once it is in the air. It has a brain that an Atari 200 would be embarrassed by.

Whether this was in the plan, or just a brown trouser moment, is another question. If there happened to be a civilian airliner in the vacinity, would the Israeli pilot have done the same?

So, Israel is at fault for ignoring the agreement with Russia, and attacking despite russian presence in a restricted area. It all went wrong. Lots of Israeli damage control with Russia - offers to send the Israeli air force commander to Moscow to grovel in person, etc. You can conspiracy theory as much as you like, and the French missile is not included in the above, but I like ****-up over conspiracy, and idiot commanders not considering the consequences more likely than vast overarching 200 move secret plans to rule the universe by Thursday.

NB - the above is not my work, just in case you thought I was clever (unlikely, I know).

rita , 21 hours ago

Putin as usual is brilliant, unlike the others who are continually trigger happy trying desperately to inflate the situation in Syria!

RG_Canuck , 21 hours ago

Agreed, but I would like to see Putin grab that little frog by the te$ticle$ until he gets on the ground and begs for mercy.

Posa , 22 hours ago

I totally agree with this interpretation. The tide is running with Russia-friendly right-wing European parties who eventually will depose the Macron- Merkel axis, thanks to the Social Dems accepting a flood of refugees from Bush-Clinton-Obama Regime Change War Crimes. The writing is on the wall and Putin does not want to disrupt the inevitable flow of events by being suckered into firing the first shots.

Loss of personnel and aircraft is accepted as war-time casualties... BUT I also agree that retaliation will be more subtle, coming in the form of upgrades to defense of Syrian air space defense. Of course, if Putin really wants to stick it to France- Israel he can also complete the deal with Iran to sell the S series upgrades to Iran.

BrownCoat , 22 hours ago

Some of the interpretation is accurate. Some is Russian spin. The part I liked best was:

"whether we're talking Fort Sumter, Pearl Harbor or the Gulf of Tonkin."

Darn right accurate! I would have added WMD's in Iraq to the list.

indus creed , 12 hours ago

According to Joel Skousen, Russia and China are not yet militarily ready to take on West. Then again, Skousen used to be a CIA asset. Whom to believe these days?

Joiningupthedots , 23 hours ago

It changes nothing.

Russia, Syria, Iran and Hezbollah won the war.

The West is desperately trying to turn Syria into another Libya and is desperately failing.

ZeroLounger , 23 hours ago

A video on one of the links describes large quantities of captagon were seized, along with motorcycles and weapons, near Palmyra.

So a war fueled by meth, basically.

thisandthat , 11 hours ago

Always was, at least since ww2

Is-Be , 23 hours ago

Because lying us into war is how we maintain the illusion of fighting wars of conquest under the rubric of Christian Just War Theory which supports our national spirit of manifest destiny

I'm getting the distinct impression that monotheism is a very bad idea.

A curse upon Charlemagne the Butcher and Oathbreaker!

Captain Nemo de Erehwon , 1 day ago

The fog of war and geopolitics makes initial responses to the attack on Russian and Syrian forces recently difficult to assess.

That would have been excellent one-line article. But no. We have to expand on it.

Yellow_Snow , 12 hours ago

Just heard that Russia is indeed setting up a 'No Fly Zone' and will be doing Naval training/testing in zones around Syria... between 0 and 19000 altitude

IsaHell has attacked Syria by air 200 times while the world has stood by...

S-400 needs to get deployed - now is the time - what's the point of having these SAM's and never using them...

Needs to stop

DEMIZEN , 1 day ago

the Russian heads will stay cool. militarily, it is too early to move in and go full ****** with air defences the Jews are too close and will study their gear and structure.

Russian voter is beginning to rise eyebrows i assume, and Putins reputation is taking a hit. i bet there will some tough Putin videos following this mess to restore his image in public. Russian public wants Jewish blood, but i cant see a good immediate response.Revenge is best served cold.

this mess will be followed up with more gear and more training for SAA, you cant blame Syrian Army for any of this, they sacrifice two dozens of soldiers on a good day. most of Syria SAM crews were executed in the first months of the war.

ships will keep coming. SAA will keep growing, Russians will likely focus on Ukraine and EU diplomacy now. Assad and Kurds need to sit down and look at the option. Opposition in idlib will disarm or die.Guerillas w/o insignia will keep hitting SDF. US will leave AL Tanf. Its going to be a slow winter.

BrownCoat , 22 hours ago

Putin's reputation is not taking a hit!

What did Israel achieve in this attack? No one is reporting. Maybe Israel wanted to hit Iranian militia units that were concentrating for the attack on Idlib before the units were redeployed. We don't know.
Israel did not claim any success, just an attack without the loss of any F-16s.

In the eyes of Russians, Putin stood up to the "evil empire" once again. The cost was 15 soldiers. Russian's mothers are very vocal about sons coming home in body bags. That causes social unrest. Support for Putin does not waver however. The deaths are the price Russia pays to protect the mother land.

The author is correct that Putin's restraint shows skill and courage. Putin's weakness was assigning blame for the 15 soldiers. Assigning blame was probably the work of some sycophantic underlings.

turkey george palmer , 15 hours ago

Ok, what of the assets mixed in with the idlib bunch. The FUKUS has pretty valuable people in that group and maybe some information the west dos not want made available to Russia. I think Putin can get some of those people and use them.

There's some other things the US has over there that they don't want anyone to be able to show on TV

africoman , 18 hours ago

With the downing of the IL-20 ELINT aircraft which killed 15 Russian servicemen, by the aggressions of Israhell

Putin's response seemed timid/weak and was at odds with strong statements from his Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu who put the blame directly on Israhell condemning and more recent statements from Russia's Foreign Ministry.

Putin backed off on explicitly blaming Israel, saying it was chain of reaction that caused the situation etc instead of pining it to that parasite

Yes, i observed the tondown by Putin, maybe we don't know the big boys like Putin knew what is at stake than 15 Russian service men,RIP

It seems to me Putin/Russia is in the game for greater good than such provocation by the middle finger and are paying dearly.

Russia didn't stick her nake for nothing as i said above,geopolitics and long term national interest etc

The attack by Israhell came just after the "Idlib liberation deconfliction zone" deal reached with Russia/Putin & Turkey/Erdogan after many hours of talk

That was something, not seen/wanted by the enemy of Syria.

So it was expected, provokation?

Maybe Putin's answer/response not verbally, it would gonna come practically, by ratcheting up the defensive shield of Russian position and eventually upgrading Syrian air defense, as both are now targeted if they pursue liberating Idlib from the filthy jihadist infestations, including Iran.

The USA/UK warned Russia/Syria/Iran if they dare touch their 'rebel boyes' then we will respond UNSC dramatic talk on which what i found it interesting was that

the Syrian ambassador to UN,Dr.Bashar Jaafari exposed their hypocrisy asking the absurdity that if they will let say 15,000 'rebels' aka terrorist in manchester city doing terrorism and they will let Russia wanted to do same.

So i see toning down of Vlad is good in avoiding another provocation by Israhell/USA

One can see, Israhell blamed Syria right, then if Syria increased her ability of defense then that will be seen as danger/aggression by Israhell

that is the statu quo there, criminals

pluto the dog , 19 hours ago

To paraphrase Jean-Marie le Pen- Putin has described the Jewish takeover of Russia in 1917 and the slaughter of 62

million Christian Slavs that followed as "an incident of history" - and best forgotten.

Putin is so deep in bed with Jewish oligarchs - and Bibi - it aint funny. LOL

Pleas note - the figure of 62 million dead is the most accurate yet. Was deduced by researchers who had access to Kremlin archives for short period of time after the Soviet Union imploded. So round that down to approx. 60 million and you will be safely in the ball park.

Mustahattu , 20 hours ago

FUKUS alliance? More like FUCKUS alliance.

OverTheHedge , 20 hours ago

There is another interpretation, over at MoonOfAlabama, which seems to be more sensible than the doom-laden war-mongering rhetoric in this article.

As explained at this blog: http://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2018/09/some-fast-thoughts-on-il-20.html

1. Israel and Russia have a deconfliction agreement, so Russia would have notified Israel about its IL-20 flight plans.

2. Israel would have agreed not to have fighter aircraft in that area, as part of the agreement.

3. Israeli fighter planes used the IL-20 to mask their run in, which is a breach of the agreement, and just rude, frankly. Israel appears to believe that agreements don't apply.

4. The Syrian air defence saw the Israeli planes, targeted and locked on. Panic in the cockpit.

5. The Israeli pilot(s) used the bulk of the IL-20 to mask their radar reflection, and the S-200 missile, being old and dim, went for the biggest radar cross-section. In other words, the Israeli pilot saved his life by sacrificing the russian plane. Note that the missile itself doesn't do IFF, and can't be recalled or retargeted once it is in the air. It has a brain that an Atari 200 would be embarrassed by.

Whether this was in the plan, or just a brown trouser moment, is another question. If there happened to be a civilian airliner in the vacinity, would the Israeli pilot have done the same?

So, Israel is at fault for ignoring the agreement with Russia, and attacking despite russian presence in a restricted area. It all went wrong. Lots of Israeli damage control with Russia - offers to send the Israeli air force commander to Moscow to grovel in person, etc. You can conspiracy theory as much as you like, and the French missile is not included in the above, but I like ****-up over conspiracy, and idiot commanders not considering the consequences more likely than vast overarching 200 move secret plans to rule the universe by Thursday.

NB - the above is not my work, just in case you thought I was clever (unlikely, I know).

not-me---it-was-the-dog , 20 hours ago

" If there happened to be a civilian airliner in the vacinity, would the Israeli pilot have done the same? "

only civilian airliners over syria......as far as i can tell, are from iran. so, answer would be yes.

Southerly Buster , 18 hours ago

Have you not just described the 'official' story, a " chain of tragic circumstances."

Nothing 'alternative' or 'clever' with the MoA's interpretation.

not-me---it-was-the-dog , 21 hours ago

no-fly zone over western syria? no.

no-fly zone over lebanon.

.........you read it here first.

rita , 21 hours ago

Putin as usual is brilliant, unlike the others who are continually trigger happy trying desperately to inflate the situation in Syria!

RG_Canuck , 21 hours ago

Agreed, but I would like to see Putin grab that little frog by the te$ticle$ until he gets on the ground and begs for mercy.

Posa , 22 hours ago

I totally agree with this interpretation. The tide is running with Russia-friendly right-wing European parties who eventually will depose the Macron- Merkel axis, thanks to the Social Dems accepting a flood of refugees from Bush-Clinton-Obama Regime Change War Crimes. The writing is on the wall and Putin does not want to disrupt the inevitable flow of events by being suckered into firing the first shots.

Loss of personnel and aircraft is accepted as war-time casualties... BUT I also agree that retaliation will be more subtle, coming in the form of upgrades to defense of Syrian air space defense. Of course, if Putin really wants to stick it to France- Israel he can also complete the deal with Iran to sell the S series upgrades to Iran.

BrownCoat , 22 hours ago

Some of the interpretation is accurate. Some is Russian spin. The part I liked best was:

"whether we're talking Fort Sumter, Pearl Harbor or the Gulf of Tonkin."

Darn right accurate! I would have added WMD's in Iraq to the list.

indus creed , 12 hours ago

According to Joel Skousen, Russia and China are not yet militarily ready to take on West. Then again, Skousen used to be a CIA asset. Whom to believe these days?

Joiningupthedots , 23 hours ago

It changes nothing.

Russia, Syria, Iran and Hezbollah won the war.

The West is desperately trying to turn Syria into another Libya and is desperately failing.

ZeroLounger , 23 hours ago

A video on one of the links describes large quantities of captagon were seized, along with motorcycles and weapons, near Palmyra.

So a war fueled by meth, basically.

thisandthat , 11 hours ago

Always was, at least since ww2

Is-Be , 23 hours ago

Because lying us into war is how we maintain the illusion of fighting wars of conquest under the rubric of Christian Just War Theory which supports our national spirit of manifest destiny

I'm getting the distinct impression that monotheism is a very bad idea.

A curse upon Charlemagne the Butcher and Oathbreaker!

Baron Samedi , 23 hours ago

Had my champagne and a bottle of potassium iodide in my pocket ...

dibiase , 23 hours ago

" Join my Patreon because you don't like war-mongers."

nice touch. 181 people pay 1500 a month a for few articles like this a month...

gdpetti , 23 hours ago

Israel is a kill zone anyway, no smart 'Jews' live there, only psychos and the downtroddened Palestinians and other 'jews'... christians, moslem etc.

Russia has to deal with its own "Jews" and Western friendlies remember: http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=176526

Like China, Putin is thinking the long game... not a quick score before the next commercial timeout... and he's a chess player, so thinking ahead to the next set of moves is the norm.... when this is lost, so is life.. think of Caesar as an example of those that don't know when to say when... when to stop and smell the roses... when to consolidate operations before the next set are begun.

What will the West do when their plans do go as planned? Sit around in the Med Sea for how long? The Kurds will get played as the fools they are, same as always... this is the basic script of all of our lives here in 'Purgatory'.. a school in self conscious awareness.. and this is how we learn.... how many times does a lesson need to repeat before we learn? THink of the example of Neo in that film 'The Matrix'.... "You've been done that street before Neo..."

15 lives lost.... but no excuse yet given to start WW3 and lose many, many more... the idiot puppets in the Western capitals get frustrated and lose their sanity.. as their OWO puppet show is steered over the cliff by their own puppet masters in the SG... 'out with the OWO, in with the NWO'... the best puppets are those that never even think they could be one.... and so it goes.

pluto the dog , 23 hours ago

Putins in bed with Bibi just like Trump is. And Putins daughter is married to a ******* ****. Does that sound familiar?

Yous are gonna be waitin a long time for WW3 to start

Blankone , 22 hours ago

What? Is Putin's daughter really married to a ***.

Holy ---, Just like all of Trump's kids who have married.

Damn

pluto the dog , 20 hours ago

Putins daughter now divorced from his buddy Nikolai Shamalovs son Kirill

no one in Russia is allowed to talk about this stuff

below link takes you to photo of Nikolai Shamalov. Please examine photo - looks very ashkenazi to me LOL

https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1136705/

Blankone , 6 hours ago

The links of the stormfront article lay things out well.

I have the bad feeling again. I knew Putin's background was Russian mafia/corruption in taking over from Yeltsin and that Putin was catering to the jews, but this was a surprise.

Damn

Jung , 20 hours ago

She is married to a Dutchman and many were angry with them about MH17, so they left the Netherlands. Don't worry about what he is, Putin knows his Grand Chessboard and has to avoid problems with his fifth column in Russia (a group of Jewish people with a lot of clout.

One of these is not like the others.. , 23 hours ago

12$ a month!

Who do you think I am, Rothschild??

(I looked at the patreon link).

Is-Be , 23 hours ago

Here's a novel idea, France.

How about protecting France? It is, after all, called a Defence Force.

Or do tired eyes deceive me?

RG_Canuck , 21 hours ago

Defence Farce, more like it.

ZeroLounger , 23 hours ago

It appears that Armageddon is underway before our very eyes.

Buy stawks.

Is-Be , 23 hours ago

You have Armageddon, we have Ragnarok.

The difference is, we don't lust after Ragnarok.

Odin fears Ragnarok, for his doom is fortold.

Only Ask and Embla survive Ragnarok.

eyesofpelosi , 20 hours ago

Yes, the three (***/christian/islam) "*** cults" really WANT the end for all things. Sickening, childish, and...evil. I'm a follower of Hela for the most part, yet I do not "rush what is inevitable" either, lol.

terrific , 23 hours ago

The FUKUS alliance. Who thought that one up? It's hilarious.

FreeEarCandy , 23 hours ago

A false flag attack on any Christian historical site within Israel is all Israel needs to do to drag the west into starting WW3. Historically, we know Israel has special place in their heart for Christians.

besnook , 1 day ago

putin will respond in a way to get the most roi. he played this masterfully. concede on issues when you have a lot to gain and nothing to lose.

tel aviv has a red dot on it's forehead now.

Captain Nemo de Erehwon , 1 day ago

The fog of war and geopolitics makes initial responses to the attack on Russian and Syrian forces recently difficult to assess.

That would have been excellent one-line article. But no. We have to expand on it.

Yellow_Snow , 1 day ago

Russia should use Syria as a testing ground for the S-400 and the new S-500 systems... A No fly Zone and 'hot' testing site

BrownCoat , 22 hours ago

It would be nice for the West, but...

1. Creating a No Fly Zone would force Russia to respond to any infraction. That reduces Putin's options and diverts effort from Russia's objectives in Syria.

2. Installing S-400 or S-500 or S-999 would only show Israel and the US the capabilities of these advanced weapon systems. According to the author, the S-300 is sufficient to keep Israeli planes in check.

Yellow_Snow , 12 hours ago

Just heard that Russia is indeed setting up a 'No Fly Zone' and will be doing Naval training/testing in zones around Syria... between 0 and 19000 altitude

IsaHell has attacked Syria by air 200 times while the world has stood by...

S-400 needs to get deployed - now is the time - what's the point of having these SAM's and never using them...

Needs to stop

caconhma , 1 day ago

Prostitutin is a CIA asset and a total POS.

Shemp 4 Victory , 23 hours ago

Yeah, you're the adequacy, of course.

Your reactions are worthy of Pavlov's dog. You, I suppose, were trained with the same methods.

Victor999 , 21 hours ago

Throw him a treat.

Anunnaki , 1 day ago

Putin is a Ziomist

Brazen Heist II , 1 day ago

Rooting for the collapse of FUKUS and Pissraeli imperialism.

But evil takes time to weaken because evil still has much more power than it deserves.

Putin is playing the long game, he knows these devils don't value anything they preach, and they are sore losers about Syria, and he is neutering their scumbag behaviour, which may seem like acquiesence to some, but it is merely realpolitik because he knows the FUKUS + Pissrael can overpower Russia if they are united, esp when Russia is seen to strike back with force directly.

They were united in Syria until their ragtag army of headchoppers fell apart, thanks to Russian and Iranian realpolitik. So Russia, like China and Iran, is biding its time and deflecting some big hits, taking a few blows, but they are in it for the victory in the long run which means weakening the FUKUS + Pissraeli imperialist alliance through attrition and clever maneuvering.

ThanksChump , 1 day ago

This analysis is compelling. It would be nice to have corroborating evidence that it was the French vessel that shot down the IL-20, but even without that evidence, this story satisfies the Occam's Razor test. This was a major gamble against a better player.

So, is Assad going to get new S-300 or new S-400 systems? The Iranians might feel slighted if Assad gets S-400s.

DEMIZEN , 1 day ago

the Russian heads will stay cool. militarily, it is too early to move in and go full ****** with air defences the Jews are too close and will study their gear and structure.

Russian voter is beginning to rise eyebrows i assume, and Putins reputation is taking a hit. i bet there will some tough Putin videos following this mess to restore his image in public. Russian public wants Jewish blood, but i cant see a good immediate response.Revenge is best served cold.

this mess will be followed up with more gear and more training for SAA, you cant blame Syrian Army for any of this, they sacrifice two dozens of soldiers on a good day. most of Syria SAM crews were executed in the first months of the war.

ships will keep coming. SAA will keep growing, Russians will likely focus on Ukraine and EU diplomacy now. Assad and Kurds need to sit down and look at the option. Opposition in idlib will disarm or die.Guerillas w/o insignia will keep hitting SDF. US will leave AL Tanf. Its going to be a slow winter.

nowhereman , 1 day ago

OOOH Nastradamus

DEMIZEN , 1 day ago

i actually knew your were going to comment.

BrownCoat , 22 hours ago

Putin's reputation is not taking a hit!

What did Israel achieve in this attack? No one is reporting. Maybe Israel wanted to hit Iranian militia units that were concentrating for the attack on Idlib before the units were redeployed. We don't know.
Israel did not claim any success, just an attack without the loss of any F-16s.

In the eyes of Russians, Putin stood up to the "evil empire" once again. The cost was 15 soldiers. Russian's mothers are very vocal about sons coming home in body bags. That causes social unrest. Support for Putin does not waver however. The deaths are the price Russia pays to protect the mother land.

The author is correct that Putin's restraint shows skill and courage. Putin's weakness was assigning blame for the 15 soldiers. Assigning blame was probably the work of some sycophantic underlings.

sevensixtwo , 1 day ago

Who's going to say, "The Israelis attacked behind the Russian plane because they knew it would mess up the radar on the S-200?"

BrownCoat , 22 hours ago

We don't know what caused the IL-20 destruction. Was it a French rocket? Was it a Syrian or Russian working the missile defense system? My hunch is "friendly fire," but I wasn't there.

Hindsight, the pilot should have disobeyed his flight plan and left the theater when the SHTF. The plane could have landed in Cyprus. The pilot would have gotten grief (and probably a demotion), but he would have saved the plane and its crew.

Mister Ponzi , 15 hours ago

You're making the mistake to let your emotions dominate your analysis. First, Russia does not owe Syria (or any other Arab country for that matter) anything. As The Saker some time ago rightly pointed out: Where was the Arab support for Russia in Chechenya or Georgia? Which Arab country does recognize the indepence of Abkhasia, South Ossetia or Transnistria? What was their reaction to Western sanctions against Russia? And how do they support Russia in the case of Donbass or Crimea? Russia is in Syria only for her own interest and will do the things that help her most. This will support the Assad government only in those areas where the interest is aligned. If it were in Russian interest (which it isn't) they wouldn't hesitate to get rid of Assad. Second, of course they give their S400s to Turkey because Turkey is the big prize out there strategically. Sure, Erdogan is a despicable politicians whose actions evoke memories of the darkest periods of the Ottoman Empire. But Russian foreign policy is not driven by the hysterical human rights howling the West usually displays (but only against governments that are not pro-Western) but by Realpolitik. You may welcome it or reject it you must always analyze Russian foreign policy through this lens. Would Russia tear Turkey out of the NATO phalanx if they could? Of course! Turkey would be a tremendous loss for NATO strategically. This explains Russia's attitude towards Erdogan including the chatter that it was Putin who warned Erdogan of the coup that was underway. Third, the claim that Russia is too passive has been discussed so extensively that anyone who wanted to understand the arguments of both sides and to weigh the pros and cons could have done so, therefore, I'm not going to repeat the discussion here. For those who do not support warmongering or cry "*****" all the time you can find a more balanced analysis of the Russian position here:

http://thesaker.is/reply-to-paul-craig-roberts-crucial-question/

zoghead , 1 day ago

Obviously a well planned operation and huge assault. No one is talking of the missiles fired on Homs, Tartus and Latakia.

"One minute notice" by Israel, is patently unfair.

And the innocent US who took no part, but had a few nuclear subs and half a dozen warships loaded and ready . . waiting for high noon!

Putin needs to get serious, or this will repeat in short time.

FBaggins , 1 day ago

Putin in dealing with three sociopath governments of three sociapathetic nations (Isreal, the UK and the US) whose people are unable to elect leaders independent of the the sociopath unelected puppet masters. He is not going to take the death of 15 servicemen lightly and the sociopaths know this, but he is also not going to start WWIII over the incident. Sociopaths like Netanyahu who want to escalate conflict in the area for the growth of Israel are unpredictable.

Putin's job is to drive out the terrorist and stabilize the nation which is exactly the opposite of what Israel, the UK and the US set out to do, but those nations continue to support and even pay the terrorist insurgents they initially sent into Syria. They are sociopaths because they do not give a rap about all of the killing and destruction they have directly caused with their destabilization and regime change efforts to serve their own designs. The entire world is aware of their crimes and increasingly will turn away from any reliance on these nations or on their money.

The Ram , 1 day ago

FUKUS - forgot the 'I'. Should be written - I FUK US The 'I' being the real leader of the pack.

Posa , 22 hours ago

Wrong. Getting into a shooting war at precisely the time when the US poodles in the EU are ripe to be deposed would be a huge strategic mistake WHICH THE Anglo-Americans ARE TRYING to provoke... not taking the bait is a smart move... in contrast to the USSR in Afghanistan, for example, which became their Vietnam.

justdues , 1 day ago

Here is the oh so predictable Blankbrain with his usual demands that Putin act like a punch drunk street thug and lash out at every provocation . Putin is way smarter than you CIA/Mossad boy and those of us that aint in a hurry to see our loved ones vaporised thank God for that.

[Sep 20, 2018] Every time one of these incidents happens, a flood of "chicken-hawks" come out of the woodwork demanding that Russia should "release the S700s" and "shoot everything down," etc.

Notable quotes:
"... Russia has a clear mission in Syria: that is to re-establish control of Syria for the Assad government and prevent radical Islamic groups from taking over and using Syria as a home (and a launching pad for exporting their twisted views back into Russia). Once that happens, if they are smart, they will go home. Avoiding entanglements with countries like Turkey and Israel are part of that goal. To get themselves embroiled into the vipers nest (like the Americans have done) would be pure stupidity. ..."
"... So yes, Russia will likely do nothing about this, except perhaps change their own tactics to make it less likely to happen again. ..."
"... But this incident does do one very important thing: it exposes the complete and utter fraud and moral bankruptcy of the zionist controlled west and their corporate media who will not report this story and will decline to comment on why exactly Israel gets to bomb Syria at will. ..."
"... NoseytheDuke , says: September 19, 2018 at 7:12 am GMT ..."
"... I have to say that this comment reveals you to be the adult in the comments 'room' so far Greg. ..."
"... Kiza , says: September 19, 2018 at 4:39 pm GMT ..."
"... Here is an excellent summary in English from the Russian state cominiques: http://johnhelmer.org/?p=17934#more-17934 . ..."
"... The only totally wrong thing in this article is the discussion whether the IFF of the Russian S200 system should have prevented the shoot-down of a friendly plane (both made in the same country). Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) is a system which prevents the launching of a missile against your own plane in a complex air battle environment. Now the Jewish 5th column in Russia is muddying the water (they are good at this) saying that it is a Russian screw up being blamed on Israel and John Helmer appears to have picked this up as fact. ..."
"... But, the truth is that IFF works to prevent a launch against a friendly target. It also prevents the missile from hitting a friendly plane under the standard mode of operation of targeting radars called CW. But CW mode is also a major vulnerability of targeting radars, because it can be jammed or spoofed to protect a foe, most Western planes are equipped with good CW counter measures. This is why the S200 system has been designed for semi-automous operation of its missiles. In the last part of the missile's trajectory, the missile can hone in on a target in the absence of a CW signal illuminating its intended target. When the Israeli small fighter jets took cover "behind" a big IL20, the missile honed in on it because the missile's own radar and logic selected the largest target as the most lucrative. ..."
"... Therefore, there was never a Russian screw up of any kind in this. ..."
"... Please keep in mind that Israelis are the World's experts in Russian radar systems because many Jews were involved in their design and some have immigrated to Israel. A few years ago, Israel even hired a Cyprian older and export model of S300 to train its pilots against them. Knowing how much plannng goes into bombing missions, knowing that IL20 because it was EW was a constant cruising presence in the air, and that Israelis attacked targets right next to the biggest Russian airbase in Latakia (where there was potential for the Russian involvement), it is really hard to believe that this outcome was not deliberate. ..."
"... Ultimately, the Israelis are happy with Putin's statements and unhappy with Shoygu's. Please observe the photo of Putin with Nutty Yahoo in Helmer's article, Putin's face is so self-happy. Makes you wish someone would slam a rifle butt into the moron's mug. ..."
"... The final irony is the one several people mentioned online – if the Syrians were operating an S300VM, the most modern version of the targeting radar, quite resistant to CW counter measures, the IL20 shootdown almost certainly would not have happened. Furthermore, if the Russian S400 was permitted to engage Israeli planes, it would have been the four Israeli F16s bathing in the Mediterranean Sea and body parts of Israeli pilots being collected instead of the Russian. On both options, Shoygu said yes and Putin said no. So who is to blame? Perhaps Putin is the Jewish 5th column in Russia. ..."
"... In my next comment I intend to outline what I think the Russians should have been and should be doing, how to deal with the Coalition of the Lovers of Terrorism. ..."
"... Harold Smith , says: September 19, 2018 at 4:44 pm GMT ..."
"... "Basically, 4 Israeli aircraft were sent on a bombing mission against targets near the Russian facilities in Khmeimim and Tartus (which, by itself, is both stupid and irresponsible). " ..."
"... I see it differently: ..."
"... Basically, 4 Israeli aircraft were sent on a mission to (indirectly) bring down a Russian plane, under the pretense of bombing Syrian targets. The object being to exploit Putin's apparent weakness and use it to trash his political popularity (and perhaps damage the morale of the Russian military). ..."
Sep 20, 2018 | www.unz.com

Greg S. , says: September 19, 2018 at 3:48 am GMT

Every time one of these incidents happens, a flood of "chicken-hawks" come out of the woodwork demanding that Russia should "release the S700s" and "shoot everything down," etc.

These people are idiots and should be ignored. The Saker is coming dangerously close to being one of these idiots himself.

Russia has a clear mission in Syria: that is to re-establish control of Syria for the Assad government and prevent radical Islamic groups from taking over and using Syria as a home (and a launching pad for exporting their twisted views back into Russia). Once that happens, if they are smart, they will go home. Avoiding entanglements with countries like Turkey and Israel are part of that goal. To get themselves embroiled into the vipers nest (like the Americans have done) would be pure stupidity.

So yes, Russia will likely do nothing about this, except perhaps change their own tactics to make it less likely to happen again.

But this incident does do one very important thing: it exposes the complete and utter fraud and moral bankruptcy of the zionist controlled west and their corporate media who will not report this story and will decline to comment on why exactly Israel gets to bomb Syria at will.

NoseytheDuke , says: September 19, 2018 at 7:12 am GMT
I have to say that this comment reveals you to be the adult in the comments 'room' so far Greg.
Kiza , says: September 19, 2018 at 4:39 pm GMT
Here is an excellent summary in English from the Russian state cominiques: http://johnhelmer.org/?p=17934#more-17934 .

The only totally wrong thing in this article is the discussion whether the IFF of the Russian S200 system should have prevented the shoot-down of a friendly plane (both made in the same country). Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) is a system which prevents the launching of a missile against your own plane in a complex air battle environment. Now the Jewish 5th column in Russia is muddying the water (they are good at this) saying that it is a Russian screw up being blamed on Israel and John Helmer appears to have picked this up as fact.

But, the truth is that IFF works to prevent a launch against a friendly target. It also prevents the missile from hitting a friendly plane under the standard mode of operation of targeting radars called CW. But CW mode is also a major vulnerability of targeting radars, because it can be jammed or spoofed to protect a foe, most Western planes are equipped with good CW counter measures. This is why the S200 system has been designed for semi-automous operation of its missiles. In the last part of the missile's trajectory, the missile can hone in on a target in the absence of a CW signal illuminating its intended target. When the Israeli small fighter jets took cover "behind" a big IL20, the missile honed in on it because the missile's own radar and logic selected the largest target as the most lucrative.

Therefore, there was never a Russian screw up of any kind in this.

Please keep in mind that Israelis are the World's experts in Russian radar systems because many Jews were involved in their design and some have immigrated to Israel. A few years ago, Israel even hired a Cyprian older and export model of S300 to train its pilots against them. Knowing how much plannng goes into bombing missions, knowing that IL20 because it was EW was a constant cruising presence in the air, and that Israelis attacked targets right next to the biggest Russian airbase in Latakia (where there was potential for the Russian involvement), it is really hard to believe that this outcome was not deliberate.

Ultimately, the Israelis are happy with Putin's statements and unhappy with Shoygu's. Please observe the photo of Putin with Nutty Yahoo in Helmer's article, Putin's face is so self-happy. Makes you wish someone would slam a rifle butt into the moron's mug.

The final irony is the one several people mentioned online – if the Syrians were operating an S300VM, the most modern version of the targeting radar, quite resistant to CW counter measures, the IL20 shootdown almost certainly would not have happened. Furthermore, if the Russian S400 was permitted to engage Israeli planes, it would have been the four Israeli F16s bathing in the Mediterranean Sea and body parts of Israeli pilots being collected instead of the Russian. On both options, Shoygu said yes and Putin said no. So who is to blame? Perhaps Putin is the Jewish 5th column in Russia.

In my next comment I intend to outline what I think the Russians should have been and should be doing, how to deal with the Coalition of the Lovers of Terrorism.

Harold Smith , says: September 19, 2018 at 4:44 pm GMT
"Basically, 4 Israeli aircraft were sent on a bombing mission against targets near the Russian facilities in Khmeimim and Tartus (which, by itself, is both stupid and irresponsible). "

I see it differently:

Basically, 4 Israeli aircraft were sent on a mission to (indirectly) bring down a Russian plane, under the pretense of bombing Syrian targets. The object being to exploit Putin's apparent weakness and use it to trash his political popularity (and perhaps damage the morale of the Russian military).

And I think Putin calling this calculated act of mass murder an "accident" was a serious blunder which made the mission a smashing success.

anon , [228] Disclaimer says: September 19, 2018 at 5:42 pm GMT
The Israeli air force had warned the Russian forces in Syria only one minute before the strike. A Russian IL-20 electronic warfare airplane (red line) was preparing to land at the Russian airport near Latakia just as the Israeli attack (blue) happened
moonofalabama

Israeli claims that its plane had returned by the time Russian was hit
They also claimed they warned Russia

So in one minute the warned, tried to bomb and then safely returned to Israel

Erebus , says: September 20, 2018 at 8:14 am GMT
Joaquin Flores has the most interesting analysis I've seen to date. It's just far enough out there to be true.
In a nutshell, he says it was the French (who pleaded innocence before anyone accused them), in an attempt to destroy the prospect of good relations between the EU & Russia. That, and to disrupt the deal made with Turkey regarding Idlib. The latter having made irrelevant NATO's plans to go live in Syria.
Putin/Shoigu did an end run by blaming the Israelis for the scenario. That opens possibilities, including a no-fly zone.

What is most important is that Russia avoided being lured into a PR and diplomatic catastrophe with France, which is what Atlanticists hoped for and tried to execute.

https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/full-analysis-russian-disinfo-campaign-blames-israel-for-il-20-plane-downing-yet-exonerates-france/

Pat Kittle , says: September 20, 2018 at 9:37 am GMT
Putin surely knows Israel did 9-11, specifically to get the US to fight wars for terrorist Jews.

A superb response to this latest (((outrage))) would be for Putin to make a top priority of exposing the war crimes of terrorist Jews. But he hasn't yet, so that possibility is unlikely.

Sadly ironic that the greatest enemy of Russia and the US is none other than the Terrorist Theocracy of Eretz Ysrael.

Harold Smith , says: September 20, 2018 at 2:13 pm GMT
@Erebus Joaquin Flores has the most interesting analysis I've seen to date. It's just far enough out there to be true.
In a nutshell, he says it was the French (who pleaded innocence before anyone accused them), in an attempt to destroy the prospect of good relations between the EU & Russia. That, and to disrupt the deal made with Turkey regarding Idlib. The latter having made irrelevant NATO's plans to go live in Syria.
Putin/Shoigu did an end run by blaming the Israelis for the scenario. That opens possibilities, including a no-fly zone.

What is most important is that Russia avoided being lured into a PR and diplomatic catastrophe with France, which is what Atlanticists hoped for and tried to execute.
https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/full-analysis-russian-disinfo-campaign-blames-israel-for-il-20-plane-downing-yet-exonerates-france/ Flores has an interesting view, but I have a few questions:

He says the French "early denial" doesn't make sense because the French weren't accused of anything at the time they denied involvement, but IIRC didn't the Russians mention early on that they detected missile launches from the French ship? So maybe the French were responding to what they took as an implicit accusation?

Also, if it was not a Syrian S-200 SAM that brought the IL-20 down, how does Flores explain the conspiuous inability of the Syrian S-200 system to take down any of the Israeli planes?

Finally, do the French have the guts to shoot down a Russian plane, murdering everyone on board in cold blood in an unprovoked attack? Granted Putin's not trigger happy, but the Russians have previously indicated that they would attack launch platforms if any of their personnel or assets were threatened. In light of that I don't think I would want to be on a ship whose mission is to test Russian resolve.

nsa , says: September 21, 2018 at 1:30 am GMT
@Johnny Rico

It reminds me of the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty
How so? Aside from the fact that Israel was involved in both incidents. Ricostein is correct ..there is a major difference between Il-20 and the USS Liberty. This time the jooies didn't strafe the lifeboats ..

[Sep 20, 2018] A hoped-for goal of this FUKUS stunt.may have been Russia's retaliation in order to launch Libya style operation against Syria

Sep 20, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

Mark Logan , 18 hours ago

I wonder if Putin is down playing this because he wants to get it over with so Russia can go home. A hoped-for goal of this FUKUS(IZ?) stunt.may have been retaliation. Wouldn't put it past them.
Pat Lang Mod -> Mark Logan , 17 hours ago
I earlier made this remark to FB Ali " One must ask why Putin is acting this way. He has actually taken
Trump off the hook. If the offensive had gone in Trump would have been
under a lot of pressure to take military action when the WH drama played
out. The DMZ agreement prevents that, and now he takes this soft line
over this bit of Israeli cleverness that cost Shoigu 14 men for no good
reason, Curious. One might think he does not want to rock the boat
before the mid term."
SteveC -> Pat Lang , 13 hours ago
Saving their own skins may, to the Israeli pilots, seem like a good reason. Many would reasonably dispute this of course, especially the Russians
cofer , 21 hours ago
www.pravdareport.com/amp/ne...
FB Ali -> cofer , 20 hours ago
One must remember that Pravda is now an 'opposition' newspaper.

This playing down of Putin's reaction to the shooting down of the IL-20 appears to be part of a Western media 'op'. One gets no such impression from the Tass reports, eg, http://tass.com/politics/10... .

cofer -> FB Ali , 18 hours ago
The question is, are the quotes attributed to Putin accurate and what does it mean?
www.nytimes.com/2018/09/18/...
FB Ali -> cofer , 15 hours ago
That is not the right question. To get the full import of what was said one must have not only accurate quotes but complete ones.

I don't think the NYT headline, or the tilt of its report, represent correctly Putin's reaction to this incident.

[Sep 19, 2018] Guardian journos are proclaiming themselves the bastion of free speech, when in reality they are the enemies of it.

Sep 19, 2018 | thesaker.is

I gave up on the Guardian's comment site myself, 10 years ago, as the censorship on there made it pointless. Has something changed?

There was one prolific commenter there, MrPikeBishop, who was so popular, he was even commissioned to write articles above the line. Then one day, bam, he is banned, and his entire posting history gone. That did it for me; little emperors not fit to clean his boots, just rubbed him out. I spat on the site that day and never went back. Proclaiming themselves the bastion of free speech, when they actually the enemies of it.

Actually, I was caught out here in the UK, by the demise of the old five pound note, and then the ten pound note, because I stopped reading and watching MSM years ago. It's worth it, to get their irritating buzzing out of my head.

Back to the linked Guardian article; this is indeed interesting – these questions asked by the journalist:

– Who really did shoot down this plane? Was it an accident or did France and/or Israel attack?
– Are Russia publicly accepting a false narrative to avoid having to retaliate?
– Do they even understand how close we're coming to global war, whenever a NATO country operates in Syria?
– How long can we rely on Russian common sense to avoid WWIII?

[Sep 19, 2018] Russia is in a very difficult position. It has absolutely treacherous enemies quite apart from supposed allies on all sides. The U.S.A. is even trying to destroy Orthodox Christianity to further isolate Russia. I have no doubt that there has been some very intense diplomacy behind the scenes. Remember, vengeance is a dish served cold, the western attitude for immediate gratification

Notable quotes:
"... The fact that Israel attacked today in Latakia in a temper tantrum proves this was a good deal to make for Syria. If the militants don't cooperate, they get hammered anyway. Nothing to lose. A very smart move by Putin again as well as Erdogan. I am sure China is helping financially by helping Turkey out with USSA Israeli sanctions and to get out from under the IMF. ..."
"... The hairy-chested Americans here are calling Putin weak, but he can't afford to make any over-reaching mistakes, and all decent, responsible human beings are glad of that. Do you want to have WW3 just to show how much "balls" you've got?" ..."
"... "STRONG IS NOT WHO FIGHTS WARS, STRONG IS WHO AVOIDS WAR." ..."
"... Defence minister Sergei Shoigu's statement on the shootdown at Russian military website here. https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12196031@egNews ..."
"... Putin makes it quite clear the statement by the Russian military that Israel is responsible is Russia's official position. ..."
"... You are probably right. Hindsight is 50-50 and this hasn't fully played out. My point larger point is just that if Putin had been more distrustful of Erdogan, then maybe he would've done things differently. If Erdogan doesn't keep his part of the bargain that has just been struck and never relinquishes Idlib, then Putin will have lost his Turkish gamble. It's already looking pretty dicey. ..."
"... The downing of the Russian plane was premeditated. Most likely, the holo-biz 'survivors' used electronic rerouting, which the Russians should have done long time ago against the nest of the bloody Bolshevik progeny and supremacists madmen like Miliekovski (Bibi) and the former night-club bouncer Avi Lieberman. ..."
"... Russia is in a very difficult position. It has absolutely treacherous enemies quite apart from supposed allies on all sides. The U.S.A. is even trying to destroy Orthodox Christianity to further isolate Russia. I have no doubt that there has been some very intense diplomacy behind the scenes. Remember, vengeance is a dish served cold, the western attitude for immediate gratification, e.g. ..."
"... So what are the chances that s-200 "...missile was aimed at the F-16 its seeker likely mistook the larger radar reflection of IL-20 for the intended target." as is stated in an article?Of course a possibilities are endless, in theoretical domain. But it would require sloppy operators ..."
"... At the same time, Israel is constantly working to prevent our enemies from arming themselves with advanced weaponry. Our red lines are as sharp as ever and our determination to enforce them is stronger than ever. ..."
"... This week we will mark, in synagogues and cemeteries, Yom Kippur, the holiest day of our people, and the day on which, 45 years ago, we absorbed a bloody attack that cost us thousands of victims. ..."
"... " thought Syria's goal was to redeem its territory." From whom? Syrians? With 5 million refugees outside of Syria? From a nation of 22 million. With 3 million refugees in Turkey alone. ..."
"... The reaction guided by the initial emotional state is almost always the incorrect one. This case is no different. ..."
"... That does not mean Russia must sit back and take it. It means its responses must be carefully thought out and deliberate. Not an emotional knee jerk. ..."
"... Russia looks weak because they are in a weak position. It appears the Anglo American Zionists want to demolish Syria completely. They have been goading Russia into firing back and and starting the war with NATO. The Russians have not because they know it will be all out demolition time. ..."
"... From Jose Garcia comment above: "War is for warmongers who never experience the hell they so desire." ..."
"... Serious followers of MoA understand that we are at a watershed time and reactive measures are never effective when downing a delusional foe in the throes of death. ..."
"... For all the Putin bashing going on, he appears to be the one riding the tiger. Taking on the entirety of the NATO-zionist alliance without support from China at the very least would undoubtedly be apocalyptic. Let the rooks and bishops set the trap. ..."
"... The cards that the MOD drew, meanwhile, call Israel's act "hostile" and point out that the Israeli pilots could not have missed seeing the Russian plane, and thus deliberately hid behind it. Although b linked to the Sputnik report of this, it may help for a visceral understanding of Russia's take to watch Konashenkov deliver his statement. A two minute clip from Vesti News: ..."
"... According to the Times of Isreal there are 250,000 Jews living in Moscow. With a population over 11 million that's about 2.5%. Elsewhere the numbers are lower. About 1/3 of the Jewish population in Moscow have Israeli citizenship (83000). Of the 200 richest people in Russia, 25% are Jewish according to some reports. So their power is perhaps greater than their numbers as is seen elsewhere . This is neither good or bad of course unless the power is used to support Israel over their country of residence/citizenship ..."
"... As for all the idiotic (IQ < 25) losers trolling here, as Clausewitz said, "war is the mere continuation of politics with other means" (not "by other means"), so war is all about politics. As Iraq and Afghanistan have shown recently, you can have the allegedly "most powerful military" in the world but if you don't understand the politics, you will lose, lose and keep on fucking losing. FUKUS have wanted regime change in Damascus for the last several years but it hasn't happened so FUKUS are the fucking losers so far and Putin will now ensure they go on losing. ..."
"... Putin is the master of cool understatement, and his comment about what a complex chain of accidents were required to lead to this tragedy I took to be dripping with venom. Especially since the Israelis know perfectly well this was intentional, and they know Putin knows. I would say they are extremely nervous right now. ..."
"... A major provocation was inevitable. The false flag chemical attack was disrupted with apparently magnificent intel. I heard a lot of scoffing when Russia presented evidence to the UNSC, but it must have been unusually damning and conclusive of direct Western collision with the terrorists. Did you notice there were none of the now customary Western leaks mocking the Russian presentation? Not a peep. Suddenly Hailey and the shills just changed their tune, that in fact a chemical attack wasn't necessary for them to act, that any attack at all upon terrorists in Idleb would be sufficient. Belatedly they started mentioning their overwhelming concern for the safety of the citizens, but then Russia and Turkey reached an understanding which would (at least in theory) address that. The neocons and zionists were apoplectic. Something had to be done! ..."
"... It is hardly debatable that this was a very carefully orchestrated and coordinated NATO+I operation. The West no doubt knew the Russian aircraft's patrol area and customary length of mission so this could be timed for when it was low on fuel and returning to base, its movements most predictable. ..."
Sep 19, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org
frances , Sep 18, 2018 1:18:23 PM

I read an excellent post on SouthFront that I think is worth posting here:

John Brown • 2 hours ago

This deal with Erdogan is better than I thought, as the Russian army will enter Idlib in large numbers escorted by the Turkish army without even having ot fight any battles at all.

This is why Israel downed the Russian military transport plane to try to wreck this deal which is huge victory for Syria.

The S-200 was fired at the F-16 earlier which drew the missile out towards the IL-20, then the F-16 kept the IL-20 in a line-of-sight between it and the missile, probably till the missile was out of range of identifying friend or foe, and used the heat signature to kill the nearest thing..

The deal also helps Russia and Syria by Erdogan is giving them a shield to free the rural areas of Latakia Idlib and Homs which they would have to do first any way. The Oct 15 deadline gives the Russians plenty of time to bomb the crap out of the militants. The buffer zone will also be territory Syria won't have to fight for as the Israeli terrorists will have to pull back and Russia has more time to greatly strengthen Syrian air defenses.

The fact that Israel attacked today in Latakia in a temper tantrum proves this was a good deal to make for Syria. If the militants don't cooperate, they get hammered anyway. Nothing to lose. A very smart move by Putin again as well as Erdogan. I am sure China is helping financially by helping Turkey out with USSA Israeli sanctions and to get out from under the IMF.

karlof1 , Sep 18, 2018 1:24:01 PM | link
i agree with these posts below..

"I don't believe this attack had anything to do with the Idlib agreement. Just another Israeli attack on Syria."
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 18, 2018 8:42:21 AM | 31

"Russia has its own S-400 systems defending Latakia, so it can defend itself and doesn't need Syria's S-200s.

They would have been watching the Israeli F-16s on radar, and then they get a phone call saying an attack is happening in one minute. Russia must have said "OK", because they didn't blow the F-16s out of the sky. All they have to say to Israel is "Next time it will NOT be OK." and Israel will have to stop it's invasions.

The hairy-chested Americans here are calling Putin weak, but he can't afford to make any over-reaching mistakes, and all decent, responsible human beings are glad of that. Do you want to have WW3 just to show how much "balls" you've got?"

Palloy | Sep 18, 2018 10:09:01 AM | 54

"STRONG IS NOT WHO FIGHTS WARS, STRONG IS WHO AVOIDS WAR."
Posted by: venice12 | Sep 18, 2018 10:09:18 AM | 55

It seems that most agree with my assessment that Russian policy is primarily at fault as I wrote @81. There's really no avoiding that fact, especially for Russians, which is likely to act like a stick stuck in the throat. The Zionists offer help with an "investigation" of the event, which is pure BS as the event's already been investigated, the facts revealed, and the responsible party and its criminal motive named. I'm sure numerous members of Syria's General Staff are privately--perhaps--saying "we told you so" regarding Russia's non-engagement policy. Maybe even Assad too.

Need to see Russian language media and Duma member reactions as Putin will need to address them. I wonder if the Kremlin Security Council discussed how they'd respond to such an event as another shootdown was very likely to occur.

On the question: Would having the S-300 system made any difference? Only if it had previously been used successfully to down Zionist aircraft and thus become seen as a credible deterrent to such attacks. But I doubt in this situation if its targeting system would have been able to differentiate between the larger and smaller targets.

Daniel , Sep 18, 2018 1:31:23 PM | link
This is perplexing. While Putin evidently whitewashes the Israeli act of war, he also dictates a firm message to Israel via MOD Shoigu. Russia used to be more consistent and firm when it was part of the the socialist USSR. Today everything is about capitalist profit and "win-win."

However, the U.S. population believes it is entitled to the world's resources by divine right, like Israel, and has indeed viewed itself as the New Israel. Nevertheless, much of the blame also goes to Iran for exaggerating its influence in Syria and Iraq and thus playing into Israeli propaganda.

Iran has also refused to defend its own assets in Syria and has deferred to Russia and/or Syria for protection.

Hezbollah likes to boast about its victories but is ineffectual (or more probably unwilling to retaliate) against Israeli use of Lebanese airspace to attack Syria.

Russia is infested with the Zionist lobby and a fifth column of Christian Zionists who work with George Soros on the left to pass superstitious anti-gay laws and then attack Russia for foreign-financed "human rights violations," leading to CIA-backed extremism on the left (Pussy Riot) and right (anti-immigrant white supremacy).

The FSB seems content to facilitate the destruction of its own country; one cannot blame institutional treason and/or spinelessness on one man (Putin). The bottom line is that "World War III or bust" has always been the NATO/Israel endgame and is a natural outgrowth of deep-seated, centuries-long tendencies in Western civilisation. Citizens of the West are guilty for passively voicing useless resistance against a ruthless oligarchy that only respects force.

If Westerners and their victims are unwilling to take up arms against the oligarchy (not that I would advocate that), then they shouldn't complain about the ceaseless wars and corruptions. They should just accept their status as slaves unto death without the faux protesting.

Peter AU 1 , Sep 18, 2018 1:40:17 PM | link

Defence minister Sergei Shoigu's statement on the shootdown at Russian military website here. https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12196031@egNews

Putin's public comment on the shootdown, which was in answer to a journalists quest is at the President of Russian Federation website here.
https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12196031@egNews

Thread seems to be full of troll and couch potatoes spewing crap. Putin makes it quite clear the statement by the Russian military that Israel is responsible is Russia's official position.

Guerrero , Sep 18, 2018 1:46:51 PM | link
In any complex chess position, one does well to maintain the possibility of the other side to make a blunder.
Daniel , Sep 18, 2018 1:50:37 PM | link
@ 107

There also seems to be a concerted propaganda effort by the MSM to claim that Russia supports Israel's attacks on alleged Iranian infrastructure in Syria, including Lebanese Hezbollah. The New York Times is asserting that Russian restraint has facilitated hundreds of Israeli airstrikes on Syria over the past year, and goes on to aver that Israel and Russia closely coordinate activities to limit Iranian influence in Syria.

The MSM clearly hope to drive a wedge between Russia and its regional partners, even though equal or greater blame should go to Iran for its own hesitancy to confront Israel. Hezbollah could have easily used its ever-growing post-2006 expertise to target Israeli electronic and air assets over Lebanon but has not done so, though Israel always utilises Lebanese (or Jordanian) airspace to attack Syria. Everyone likes to blame Putin but lets Iran, Syria, and the rest of the Russian military/diplomatic establishment off the proverbial hook.

Besides, Hezbollah has not done itself any favours by promoting anti-Semitic "Jews-control-the-world" canards on its al-Manar TV channel, which only discredits the otherwise worthy cause of anti-Zionism and only plays into hard-right Zionist hands.

Bashar al-Assad, for his part, made numerous flawed efforts to appease Israel and the West in the years prior to the 2011 intervention.

He privatised certain sectors of the economy; allowed Syria's arch-enemy, the pro-Zionist Muslim Brotherhood (Hamas), to set up offices; and in general tried to compensate for his inferiority and lack of experience.

When his father Hafez died in 2000, even the MSM paid grudging respect, something they have not done to Bashar. Bashar, like Gaddafi, Khrushchev, and other revisionists, was always trying to abandon the pan-Arab, anti-Zionist, socialist agenda of his father and seek "peaceful coexistence" with the West.

Yet everyone blames Putin. Sigh...

james , Sep 18, 2018 1:52:02 PM | link
@P36 jackrabbit... i have a few problems with the quote from you below.. first off, it suggests that the path syria-russia-iran has taken to regain syria could have been done differently and more effectively.. that is a 64,000 question that ignores a number of events that could or might have happened along the way to change everything at the place syria is now.. so, i disagree with you on this and think banding all the 'moderate headchoppers' and families in idlib was a smart move and one that is still being worked out.. pat lang was wrong on this from day one and doen't look at more right at this point as i see it..

"Pat Lang said that R+6 should have moved to take Idlib after Aleppo. He has now been proven right."

Peter AU 1 , Sep 18, 2018 2:18:10 PM | link
Segy Shoigu - "The head of the Russian defense Ministry reported that it had informed the defense Minister of Israel Avigdor Lieberman that Russia will not leave unanswered actions of the Israeli air force in Syria, which killed Russian soldiers."

Putin - "Our attitude towards this tragedy is set forth in a statement by our Defence Ministry, and has been fully coordinated with me."

partizan 112 it you that is fake, not the news.

Jackrabbit , Sep 18, 2018 2:20:26 PM | link
james @111

You are probably right. Hindsight is 50-50 and this hasn't fully played out. My point larger point is just that if Putin had been more distrustful of Erdogan, then maybe he would've done things differently. If Erdogan doesn't keep his part of the bargain that has just been struck and never relinquishes Idlib, then Putin will have lost his Turkish gamble. It's already looking pretty dicey.

Some counter this view by saying that Putin is "playing the long game". I disagree. The Empire has awoken and is defending its hegemonic vision. This is a 'race' (at times a game of chicken) that neither side can afford to lose.

Anya , Sep 18, 2018 2:21:57 PM | link
The downing of the Russian plane was premeditated. Most likely, the holo-biz 'survivors' used electronic rerouting, which the Russians should have done long time ago against the nest of the bloody Bolshevik progeny and supremacists madmen like Miliekovski (Bibi) and the former night-club bouncer Avi Lieberman.

The Jewish Fifth Column in Russia should feel the heat. Their Israeli relatives and best friends are guilty of the premeditated murder of Russians.

The Jewish Power in action: https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/nato-warships-amassed-by-syria-just-before-attack-on-lattakia/

"Combat vessels from the Second Standing NATO Maritime Group (NATO Maritime Group 2) moved closer to Syria's borders on the 16th of September, according to monitoring data from Western naval forces. In retrospect, we can see this sudden buildup as related to the French/US/Israeli strike on Lattakia and the downing of the Russian il-20 aircraft carrying 14 Russian soldiers

In particular, the eastern Mediterranean is now being patrolled by the Canadian Navy frigate HMCS Ville de Quebeс, by the Greek navy ship Elli and by the Dutch Navy frigate HNLMS De Ruyter, the latter being the group's flagship.

In addition to the aforementioned vessels, three American destroyers (USS Carney, USS Ross and USS Winston S. Churchill) are already in the region, as well as the USS 6th Fleet Admiral USS Mount Whitney.

The waters are also being patrolled by at least three Los Angeles-class US nuclear submarines. According to Western observers, the armament of the current US naval group in the Mediterranean includes more than 200 Tomahawk cruise missiles."

http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/the-anne-frank-test/

dh-mtl , Sep 18, 2018 2:22:53 PM | link
The agreement on Idlib reminds me of the Minsk agreements, of 2015. When the Minsk agreement was signed, many people called Putin a traitor and a weakling for abandoning the Lugansk and Donetsk republics. However looking back over the last 3 1/2 years we can see the true sense of the Minsk agreement.

1. Legitimization of the republics.
2. Commitment of Ukraine to federalization, which Ukraine had no intention of carrying out.
3. Tying the hands of the West because of 'The Minsk Agreement'.

Since then the conflict has been frozen. And every day Ukraine gets weaker and its Western owners throw away more money and credibility on a lost cause.

The Idlib agreement looks similar. What are likely results of this agreement?

1. Consolidating the exclusion of the U.S. from western Syria.
2. Positioning Turkey as the actor with responsibility to fight the U.S. coalition's Jihadis in Idlib. When combined with the situation with the Kurds, it consolidate's Turkey's position as a Russian ally and American foe.
3. Opening up transportation routes linking Damascus with Aleppo.
4. Freezing the conflict while a diplomatic solution is achieved, without the participation of the U.S. coalition.

It looks like a good deal for Syria and Russia. No wonder Israel was so furious.

Regarding Putin's reaction to the Il-20 downing, it looks like vintage Putin to me. He will not make a show of it, but will address the issue firmly, with action, not words, but on the terms and timing of his choice.

All of the commentators on this blog who denigrate Putin do not properly appreciate recent history.

Beibdnn. , Sep 18, 2018 2:25:13 PM | link
@T and all the experts. Russia is in a very difficult position. It has absolutely treacherous enemies quite apart from supposed allies on all sides. The U.S.A. is even trying to destroy Orthodox Christianity to further isolate Russia. I have no doubt that there has been some very intense diplomacy behind the scenes. Remember, vengeance is a dish served cold, the western attitude for immediate gratification, e.g.

Russia taking immediate and probably recklessly stupid retaliatory action won't serve either their or Syria's agendas, doesn't mean that action won't be taken. Putin is only human, we all make mistakes, if the situations were reversed, the U.S.A. Wouldn't even make it to 3rd world level.............

partizan , Sep 18, 2018 2:35:46 PM | link
"SARH (semi-active radar homing seeker) missiles require tracking radar to acquire the target, and a more narrowly focused illuminator radar to "light up" the target in order for the missile to lock on to the radar return reflected off target. The target must remain illuminated for the entire duration of the missile's flight ."

So what are the chances that s-200 "...missile was aimed at the F-16 its seeker likely mistook the larger radar reflection of IL-20 for the intended target." as is stated in an article?Of course a possibilities are endless, in theoretical domain. But it would require sloppy operators (unlikely that would be a Syrians in this case) to mistook the airplane loaded with all kind of electronics for an interceptor.

kral , Sep 18, 2018 2:47:37 PM | link
How can the Russians provide AD to Syria without incorporating automatic friend-or-foe recognition that allows only hostile aircraft to be targeted?

Was the relevant transponder in the IL-25 not working for some reason? Was it a software glitch? Was the Syrian equipment so old that it could not provide this safety measure without further modification? Or did the Syrians turn off this feature deliberately because they did not understand how to use it?

The answers will probably never be publicly known but the Israelis have shot themselves in the foot here by violating their de-confliction agreement with Russia.

laguerre , Sep 18, 2018 2:49:19 PM | link
yet more Israeli trolls, eg 131
Peter AU 1 , Sep 18, 2018 2:57:45 PM | link
karlof1 earlier in the thread linked to some pieces on the shootdown by Korybko
https://eurasiafuture.com/2018/09/18/initial-reaction-to-the-russian-israeli-crisis/
https://eurasiafuture.com/2018/09/18/russian-israeli-tensions-are-in-the-interests-of-the-us-and-iran/
https://eurasiafuture.com/2018/09/18/the-russian-israeli-crisis-climb-down-in-progress/

His take on the blogosphere is spot on but also his theory that and american Israeli faction in Israel engineered the situation to move deliberately put Israel on bad terms with Russia might have something.

Israel has never joined the US sanctions against Russia and Netanyahu told Trump to stand down in southwest Syria after Russia had worked its diplomacy.
I believe there is also a large voting block of ethnic Russians in Israel that may be a little pissed off about the shootdown.

partizan , Sep 18, 2018 2:58:43 PM | link
kral | Sep 18, 2018 2:47:37 PM | 134

i doubt that the Syrians handle this given the type of aircraft involved. IL-25 is allegedly shot down just off the Syrian coast where Russian have state of the art radars. In addition bunch of naval ships similarly equipped.

Peter AU 1 , Sep 18, 2018 3:09:42 PM | link
forgot to check for typos before posting my last comment.

kral 134 From what I read some time ago the S-200 warhead has a kill range of 150 meters and is armed with a proximity fuse. If that is right, the missile would only need to pass with 150 meters of the Russian plane while tracking the Israeli planes or missiles to take it out.

m , Sep 18, 2018 3:11:52 PM | link
There is more to this than meets the eye. Putin not only has to look after his troops, but he has to play politics, too, and in Russia there is a very strong 5th column of liberals and Jewish commentators who are now falling all over themselves trying to explain away Israeli actions to the Russian public. From The Saker:

"I am watching the Russian media and I have to report that Zionist propagandists (Russian liberals and Jewish commentators) look absolutely *terrible*: they are desperately trying to blame everybody (the Syrians, Hezbollah, and even the Russians) except for Israel. This will not sit well with the Russian public."

Without the public firmly behind him, taking actions that could quickly escalate will not go down well in Russia. Let people laugh and talk trash. I remember the shootdown of the Russian jet by Turkey, and everyone was screaming for Turkish blood. The Sultan eventually came back with hat in hand. It's a very tricky situation for Putin regarding Israel. This will take time to play out. The Russians will probably have the last laugh. https://thesaker.is/russia-blames-israel-for-the-shooting-down-of-her-ew-aircraft/

WJ , Sep 18, 2018 3:12:37 PM | link
@100,

Indeed. The brilliance of the Israeli strategy of provocation is that it will make the domestic political scene in Russia increasingly difficult for Putin to navigate in Syria. The more often Russian troops are killed or injured, the more quickly one half of the Russian populace demands action or withdrawal; the more they demand it, the harder it will be for Putin to maintain their support. For Israel and others are betting that he will never actually retaliate. They are creating a situation which is designed to make Russia's presence in Syria an impossible political situation for Putin himself.

Zico , Sep 18, 2018 3:24:20 PM | link
Another interesting point to note. Russia, Iran and Turkey recently had a meeting on the situation in Syria. The agreed to get rid of the rats in Idlib. Suddenly Putin turns around and makes a deal with ONLY Turkiye.

It's becoming clear that Turkey , Russia and (behind the scenes) Israel, are on the same side when it comes to Iran's presence in Syria. Syrians themselves don't have a say in their own country anymore.

The Syrian army now needs permission from a foriegn power to liberate their own land. Turning the other cheek only invites more slaps.

At this rate, Syria may well forget about Idlib. Turkey won't leave. The US won't leave either. Welcome to bulkinazation 101.

Red Ryder , Sep 18, 2018 3:38:42 PM | link
@138, Grieved,

With wisdom again . . .

I concur.

Israel broke the bond of trust. They will see in many ways and means that they bought the S-300 for Syria and eventually, a NO FLY over Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Iraq and Turkey. The S-400s will be linked and all anyone in a military aircraft has to do is call and ask for permission from Moscow/MOD/VVP. It's coming. Russia is in Syria to stay for 50+ years. And thus, it and its neighbors will be under the Russian missile defenses, integrated as a whole network.

In this Levant neighborhood, all the leaders want peace. Only Israel wants war.

The ME is wider and includes the psychos and sociopaths of Israel and Saudi Arabia and UAE. They want proxy war and US Centcom wars. But Russia has taken Turkey away and soon Iraq will be removed from US hegemony, also.

The Chinese are finishing an exercise as "ally" of Russia in Vostok 2018. They are seeing and feeling how Russia fights wars. This may give them the confidence to militarily join anchoring the ME for OBOR Silk Road development. They have much at stake in securing a peace. And just may join with a stout presence of the PLA. They should and now they might finally come.

The Chinese will be operating the port at Haifa, so it means they hold stakes in Syria and Iraq as well as Israel. In their own commercial interests and in President Xi's dream of BRI they have to invest a military presence. The time is perfect.

They intend to invest billions in reconstructing Syria. They should build their own military infrastructure base in Syria.

Their work with Russia in Vostok 2018 will make their presence inside Syria feel very comfortable.

michaelj72 , Sep 18, 2018 3:40:03 PM | link
well you go and let israel attack 'iranian' targets inside Syria some 200 times in two years or so, and ya don't expect any of your forces to ever get caught in the cross-fire?.....Well, russia, ya finally got caught.

more info here
http://news.trust.org/item/20180918140009-ol11r

"....But the ministry said it held Israel responsible because, at the time of the incident, Israeli jets were attacking Syrian targets and had only given Moscow one minute's warning, putting the Russian aircraft in danger of being caught in cross-fire..."

Jackrabbit , Sep 18, 2018 3:58:50 PM | link
"Putin showed weakness" is silly. He can't talk about secret accommodation for Israel - but he can end it .

<> <> <> <> <> <>

The 'accomodation' stemmed from Putin's view that Russia had no interest in getting involved in the Israel-Iran conflict. A wise choice because drawing Russia into that fray could lead to WWIII. Who is directly responsible for the downing of the plane is irrelevant. Israel clearly fucked with Russia by not giving them adequate warning.

Pft , Sep 18, 2018 4:32:20 PM | link
Israel controls Russia as much as it does the USA. Putin is a philo-semite. The Chief Rabbi of Russia is known as Putins Rabbi , he is from Brooklyn, a rabbi of the same orthodox sect as Kushner, Felix Sater and a couple of Putins biggest oligarch suporters . Many of Russias top oligarchs also have Israeli passports. Putins already met Bibi 3 times this year and trade and tourism between the 2 countries is booming with more than 60 flights from Israel to Moscow daily. A Russian academic is being tried for holocaust denial for daring to question some of the numbers. The media in Russia is just as pro-Israel as in US. The powerful Israeli lobby is global.


Bottom line, IMO there will be no revenge taken other than a token response to appease Russias military. Putting aside his pro Israeli stance, Putin knows an attack on Israel is the same as an attack on the Israeli controlled US . Not going to risk that for Syria, not for 14 soldiers. Thats just being smart. Weak, but smart.

Oui , Sep 18, 2018 5:01:05 PM | link
So it appears to be true Bibi Netanahau send a Yom Kippur warning to Israel's foes in Syria with "accomplices" Russia, Turkey and Iran.
At the same time, Israel is constantly working to prevent our enemies from arming themselves with advanced weaponry. Our red lines are as sharp as ever and our determination to enforce them is stronger than ever.

This week we will mark, in synagogues and cemeteries, Yom Kippur, the holiest day of our people, and the day on which, 45 years ago, we absorbed a bloody attack that cost us thousands of victims.

somebody , Sep 18, 2018 5:02:48 PM | link
Posted by: Russ | Sep 18, 2018 12:12:18 PM | 84

" thought Syria's goal was to redeem its territory." From whom? Syrians? With 5 million refugees outside of Syria? From a nation of 22 million. With 3 million refugees in Turkey alone.

Zachary F Goldberg , Sep 18, 2018 5:06:53 PM | link
If Israel did not attack Syria without any legal pretext, none of this would have happened. Why do the USA and its NATO allies stand by and watch as Israel commits so many acts of naked aggression?

Because USA and NATO are wholly owned subsidiaries of Israel. Besides, the USA does not sit idly by - it actively supports Israel.

juliania , Sep 18, 2018 5:09:44 PM | link
Thanks to karlof1 for the 3 links, to PeterAU1 for the two links to Russian response to the mishap, also to Grieved for reminding us how seriously Russia will be assessing a response, and b, of course, for bringing the matter before us in his always competent posting.

Here is a translation of part of what Putin had to say:

"...First of all, I would like to express condolences to the families of the dead.

As for your comparison with the downing of our plane by a Turkish fighter, this was a different situation. The Turkish fighter deliberately shot down our aircraft.

In this case, it is more a chain of tragic circumstances because an Israeli fighter did not down our aircraft. It goes without saying that we must get to the bottom of this. Our attitude towards this tragedy is set forth in a statement by our Defence Ministry, and has been fully coordinated with me.

As for reciprocal action, this will be primarily aimed at ensuring additional security for our military and our facilities in the Syrian Arab Republic. These steps will be seen by everyone..."

Because of the phrasing Putin has carefully used, I would place considerable emphasis on the fact that only one minute warning was given by the Israelis of this dangerous situation occurring in the region of a busy Syrian airport such as Latakia has to be. Israel certainly knows that Russian planes are using that airfield. Why only a one minute warning? would be my question. And from the answer to that would flow measures taken to avoid the occurrence which would detract considerably from Israel's freedom to operate in that manner in that region in future. Whether that will be Russia's only response is at the moment a matter of speculation. We shall have to wait and see.

Lets have some patience, and in the interim it wouldn't hurt to pray for peace. And also for the families of those airmen.

Zanon , Sep 18, 2018 5:10:57 PM | link
somebody

From whom? Have you missed that Idlib is occupied from the Syrian state?

U.N. Syria envoy Staffan de Mistura said there was a high concentration of foreign fighters in Idlib, including an estimated 10,000 fighters designated by the U.N. as terrorists, who he said belonged to the al-Nusra Front and al Qaeda.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-un/un-fears-chemical-weapons-in-syria-battle-with-10000-terrorists-idUSKCN1LF157
Lochearn , Sep 18, 2018 5:13:05 PM | link
@ 138 Grieved

I have no idea where that comment came from. Thanks for letting me know and for seeing it was not the sort of thing I would write. I wrote a while ago that I had been hacked.

Yes, those of us who have been here a long time now are not suddenly going to dismiss Mr Putin for one remark. I think it's his style to understate, to row back a bit from strong language, but that doesn't mean there won't be consequences for this action. I looked at Saker's blog and he is very critical as he has been for some time now - hence the link with Paul Craig Roberts. Fort Russ, which is run by Joaquin Flores took issue with Saker. I find Joaquin an interesting intellect. I thought his analysis of Turkeys plans for Idlib quite brave in the sense of forecasting (please Google fort russ this is how Syria will seize Idlib).

I think Israel was furious its hopes for a confrontation of the Syrian alliance with Turkey in Idlib had been dashed by an agreement the contents of which we are still not quite sure.

catnip , Sep 18, 2018 5:18:21 PM | link
The Agreement to protect and save the terrorist from destruction between Erdogan and Putin, Putin's in-action after the attack yesterday in Syria suggest the problems in Syria do not add up to a war between nation states. Clearly Putin is not defending humanity or justice, instead it seems he is engaged in a conflict between Oligarchs, especially the Oligarchs entrenched in London. USA, RUSSIA, France, Saudi Arabia, and Israel. If so, the outcome will determine which group of Oligarch owned corporations will own the output of the masses and which will plunder the resources in Syria.

If Assad wins, the masses will be able to retain their right to self determination, at least in Syria. If the rest of the world looses in Syria, everyone worldwide will be slave to the Oligarchs, no government will ever be allowed to be for the people, every government will instead be a tool of the Oligarchs, if the Oligarchs loose in Syria, they will likely nuke the world. Clearly, humanity has a problem. .

If the leadership of our nations are oligarch puppets, then why a war at all? This question suggest Putin-Erdogan agreement, Putin's failure to act and Putin's failure to allow Syria to have S-400s to defend itself, imply that Assad and even Syria are not really in the game, Syria is just the Stadium and Assad one of the players on the field, a player that can be fired at any time.. . Seems Assad stands alone against the Oligarchs as did Qaddafi and before him Saddam, and before him... on and on and on..

pogohere , Sep 18, 2018 5:28:07 PM | link
oldenyoung @3

J. Flores @ FortRuss agrees with you in an article to be posted after the site he edits recovers from an attack:

Written within the context of the disinfo wars the author analyses more fully in the yet to be posted article:

Excerpted:

"Secondly, readers will take note of the inclusion of the French denial. This French denial is bizarre and entirely out of place, since no one accused France.

. . .

The French 'early denial' when no accusation was made, means that the West had planned for France to be blamed, the French authorities were prepared to carry out their script and deny the accusations that the Russians were 'obviously' going to make.

Then something happened, and Russia didn't make that accusation. But there were the French authorities, going forward with the script, and in an incoherent way which really exposes what they were up to, and tells us all quite clearly what was planned, and yet all the while Russia doesn't at all blame France. Ridiculous, brilliant, absurd.

. . .

The aim of the Atlanticists is to have France do it, have France be blamed, and to cause a massive public relations problem, that Putin would have to respond to, by naming, blaming, the French, and seeking to hold them accountable. How will the French and Russian publics, respectively, take this? Not well, and it doesn't work well for the Eurasia project either. Macron will eventually be out, and it's politically near-impossible to hold the leader of a country, although temporary, responsible without blaming a whole people for something. Once you throw in the work of French media spin-doctors, they will absolutely succeed in twisting it not as a Macron problem but a problem that Russia has with blaming France and all the French by extension.

. . .

The IFF system, and the situation in Syria, is not at all like the situation in the Georgian war ten years ago, when at the time there were some official Russian reports of there being difficulties separating Georgian from Russian aircraft. This is because MiGs are identical to MiGs. IFF systems at the time are not the same as today, with integrated transponders which make auto-locking impossible from the start. The Syrian Army at Lattakia does not, in reality, operate as a separate army. There, they have what is known as an integrated command, at least insofar as these issues are concerned. So the SAA couldn't have attacked or locked onto a Russian plane, because the transponder data in real time that is part of newer IFF systems actually would mean there would have to be an intentional manual override over the computerated 'no-lock possible' response the S-200's computer system would have automatically generated for a Russian plane of any kind.

The S-200 has an extremely high accuracy, not more than a bit different from the S-400 for a single target, and specifically a target of this size and speed, it would have had to 'miss' the Israeli plane in question, which only has a 10-15% chance of doing, but then proceed to then actually hit the Russian plane. But not only hit the Russian plane, but critically so. This is all we can ascertain once we realize that auto-locking without manual override onto the Russian plane with the IFF transponder in direct connection with the SAA (Russian joint command) at Lattakia, is practically impossible unless we say there was an American asset working at the controls of the SAA's Lattakia computer.

. . .

The Putin-Erdogan deal reached yesterday indeed offers the strong probability for Syria to win without engaging in a needless conflict, and the promises of FUKUS attacks to be realized. Still, though they were anyhow, for no discernible reason given. Israel and France simply attacked in response to Turkey's cunning move. So time is on Russia's side.

That the aim of yesterday's surprise attack is punishment for the Turkish 'about face', which FRN stated as a very likely possible outcome, (for the record), is evident in that stories from RT and Sputnik reporting on the event had official statements, and not randomly so, saying that these attacks will not deter or reverse the Turkish-Russian agreement on the final resolution of Idlib.

What's needed now for the Atlanticists of FUKUS is to damage these relations as much as possible, Turkey vs. Russia, and Russia vs. France, and to cause Russia to blame France instead of blaming Israel.

This was a calculation, that Russia would not blame Israel due to the successful media hologram that Russia created that Israel has an inviolable special relationship (they do not, to this extent), and that instead that Russia will blame France. They did not expect Russia to accept the Western MSM Atlanticist narrative that the SAA had shot down the Russian plane either.

Between blaming France or Israel, the US expected Russia to blame France. Between blaming Syria or France, the US expected Russia to blame France. Between blaming Syria or Israel, the US expected Israel to be blamed.

They did not expect this hybrid of 'somewhat' blaming Israel for doing 'tricky stuff' in the air, the motives being hard to prove or qualify.

If Russia was to avoid an MH-17 situation in reverse, they had to think with agility. Russia has the physical evidence, the flight data, and the missile launch data. If they were going to blame France, which was mostly expected, it would have been a UNSC charade, a General Assembly charade, and a media charade with 'Putin blaming France' and Russia being accused of having possession of the evidence from which their case is made, and therefore the evidence being dodgy or even manufactured entirely.

The crash remains of the IL-20 are going to absolutely show that it was hit with a missile, any fragments etc. required to establish that, will show that's an Aster missile, or similar, like the missiles used in the S-200's. But they aren't going to show that the impact is consistent with a small missile carried by Israeli planes, or by gun strafing from an attack plane.

This is why Russia could not blame Israel,

Peter AU 1 , Sep 18, 2018 6:18:19 PM | link
Looking at the flightpaths of the Israeli aircraft and missiles, it seems likely the Russian plane would not have been in the target radar when the S-200 missiles were launched. The targets have the flown across behind the Russian aircraft causing it to be illuminated by the targeting radar after the missiles were launched. According to wikipedia the S-200 travel at 2.5km per second. At 35km offshore that is a minimum of 14 seconds from launch, most likely longer depending how far the S200 batteries are from the coast. Plenty of time to pull the targeting radar across so it also illuminates the Russian plane after missile launch.
karlof1 , Sep 18, 2018 6:27:04 PM | link
Aha! Finally found a partial copy of the Memorandum of Understanding arrived at in Sochi , which only shows the first 6 points thus its partialness. As noted in previous comment, the terrorists have already rejected abiding by it, so points 5&6 will not be undertaken, meaning the SAA's free to begin Idlib Dawn. Any barflies think Turks will convince terrorists to alter their stance?
Harry , Sep 18, 2018 6:32:54 PM | link
@ Jose Garcia | 85
Some here express that Putin should do this or why he didn't do that. It's easy to express those opinions from the comforts of home. Never having bullets fly over their heads, or having to pick up the remains of their comrades, blown to bits right in front of them. And to confront the families of those killed and explain to them why they will never return.

Lets ignore for a second keyboard warriors. However always turning second cheek doesn't work in geopolitics and wars. If not overtly, then covertly Russia should have said to Israel: Niet! And either MADE SURE that Israel never attacks Syria again (and put Russian soldiers in harms way), OR provide the means to Syria to defend itself.

Russia hasn't done either. End result? There will be MORE dead Russian soldiers in the future. Why Israel thinks it can bomb Syria 200x in last few years and get away with it? Because Russia doesnt allow Syria to defend themselves. Why Israel doesnt bomb Lebanon since 2006? Because they KNOW they would be in the World of hurt if they do. Russia should have done the same in Syria, but they overplayed "but Israel are our best buds!" hand and got screwed in the process. If Russia doesnt stop Israel even now, guess what happens next? Exactly, more dead Russians (and Syrians, Iranians, etc).

karlof1 , Sep 18, 2018 6:43:19 PM | link
Harry @177--

Yes, we agree; it's Russian policy that must change.

OT--Korean Summit--

Southfront provides this report about what's happening North of the DMZ, and provides a glimpse at what the US-driven propaganda line is as published within RoK. FYI, Moon and wife just completed a tour of RoK children's hospitals prior to heading North. Please note that Moon and Kim are on the same page when it comes to dealing with Outlaw US Empire.

Enrico Malatesta , Sep 18, 2018 6:52:38 PM | link
One possibility of revenge is to kill FUKUS/Israeli spooks in Idlib, I'm sure that Russia knows where they are & that there can't be a big MSM splash when a few Kalibr's are fired into Idlib.
John Gilberts , Sep 18, 2018 6:55:01 PM | link
"Not only Russian and (allegedly) Israeli and French aircraft and missiles were in the air. Civilian radar also tracked British Royal Air Force aircraft, which, unusually, had switched on their transponders and gone into holding patterns..."

Like AG17 /#32 I am particularly interested in further information or confirmation of French, British RAF or other NATO involvement in this ambush. If anyone spots anything further to the above quote from Haaretz used in b's piece, please post.

karlof1 , Sep 18, 2018 6:56:07 PM | link
Finian Cunningham pushes all the right buttons , but the tree he's trying to bark up instead is an unclimbable greased pole. So, despite his finely worded argument, nothing of substance will change--the UN will remain mute over Outlaw US Empire illegalities and serial Zionist aggression. But, I'll admit his words needed to be published, despite his being a lone voice in the wilderness known as Truth.
lysander , Sep 18, 2018 7:00:01 PM | link
The reaction guided by the initial emotional state is almost always the incorrect one. This case is no different.

Every regular reader of this blog would love the emotioanlly satisfaction of watching an immediate display of Russian firepower. But Elijah Magnier is correct in his most recent essay. Russia, Syria and Iran must keep their eyes on the prize, which is a reunified Syria. Notice how despite numerous provocations over the last e years, Syria is closer to that goal than ever. Russia should never be goaded into a war against the entire NATO alliance, which is exactly what could happen here.

That does not mean Russia must sit back and take it. It means its responses must be carefully thought out and deliberate. Not an emotional knee jerk.

karlof1 , Sep 18, 2018 7:49:02 PM | link
According to Magnier's latest , sources within Russia's Syrian command don't agree with Russian policy:

"'Russia has paid a heavy price for its unwillingness to exploit its superpower position in Syria, and for its failure to prevent any external force (US, EU or Israel) from bombing its allies in a theatre under its own control and dominance. In order to protect a perimeter where its forces were deployed, the US attacked and killed hundreds of Syrians in the al Tharda mountains under Obama, and hundreds more in Deir-Ezzour and al-Badiya. By contrast Israeli missiles flew over the Hmaymeen Russian-Syrian airport and the US Tomahawks which hit the Shuay'rat airport travelled over the heads of Russian forces', said the source which is part of the Russian command in Syria." [My emphasis]

Magnier thinks Russia will be able to wring a concession from the Zionists, but like the Outlaw US Empire, I don't see Zionists as "agreement capable" anymore than their Neocon cousins. There's more in his essay, but I'll allow others to discover those items.

The Idlib agreement and following Zionist crime seems to close another chapter in the ongoing Syrian Saga so a new one can begin tomorrow. One thing I believe to be certain: Never will the Zionist Abomination and Syria have normal relations; one or the other will eventually vanish from the pages of time. It remains extremely ironic that they worship the same God.

james , Sep 18, 2018 7:52:36 PM | link
@188 karlof1... israel has already displayed a complete disregard for the agreement it had with Russia, in giving russia notice.. 1 minute notice, when you are using the Russian surveillance plane as a decoy to boot, doesn't suffice.. i do believe Russia has to address this by giving Israel something in return, and more then a warning..

actually there are a number of good posts from many thoughtful posters today.. grom in particular asks good questions and expresses my thoughts as well.. i don't have answers to those questions..

james , Sep 18, 2018 8:06:02 PM | link
@190 karlof1.. i think it was a given the jihadis were going to veto the russia-turkey agreement.. it doesn't change the pressure on turkey and the jihadis to go to step 2 here with the oct 15th, or 10th deadline.. actually the jihadis were always far game as i understand it, just that turkey is trying to get them to convert to good moderate jihadi opposition to assad, lol..
https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/jihadist-groups-allegedly-reject-idlib-agreement/

smoothie has a good article up on the topic of last nights israel raid... the comments are also informative..
http://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2018/09/russia-loses-recce-il-20-in-syria.html

dltravers , Sep 18, 2018 8:26:50 PM | link
Russia looks weak because they are in a weak position. It appears the Anglo American Zionists want to demolish Syria completely. They have been goading Russia into firing back and and starting the war with NATO. The Russians have not because they know it will be all out demolition time.

The Russians can hit back but NATO, Israel, and Turkey have the overwhelming force and all want a piece of Syria in partition. Israel and Turkey are talking about restoring diplomatic relations over the last few days. The Kurd's in a joint alliance with Israel and NATO may get a piece of the action as well. Israel wants the old kingdom back and will never settle for Iran on its borders in force. NATO wants to kill of all of Russia's ally's and Turkey wants to be the old Ottoman Turks again. What a toxic mess.

Unless the Chinese come in with a very large contingent the Russians do not have much of a chance in the long run. Lets hope this is not the flashpoint to WW III.

They have backed a bear into a corner with her cubs and are poking it with a stick. This will not end well.

Chas , Sep 18, 2018 8:31:17 PM | link
If Russia wanted to make an asymmetrical attack on Israel how about doing something for the Palestinians?
Ike , Sep 18, 2018 8:50:58 PM | link
Anyone know what the French frigate was firing at?
Jackrabbit , Sep 18, 2018 8:54:44 PM | link
Ike

I don't think anyone knows right now but some think that the French may have fired defensively because missiles were coming in their direction.

psychohistorian , Sep 18, 2018 9:06:35 PM | link
From Jose Garcia comment above: "War is for warmongers who never experience the hell they so desire."

Serious followers of MoA understand that we are at a watershed time and reactive measures are never effective when downing a delusional foe in the throes of death.

Putin knows that this is a proxy fight over ongoing global power and control which empire is losing, not by being beat, but by being seen clearly as a social cancer that is metastasizing.

Yes, we all should offer condolences for the Russians that have died in this incident. I expect that if truth be known that more military than those number of Russians have died in the past 24 hours. Should any of those deaths be a reason to start a nuclear war?

I have said this before and some seem to not understand. The social organization of the West is an aggressive one that thrives on conflict. They cannot continue to exist without war and that is what Putin is denying them.

The West needs to die of its own internal contradictions and it seems to be doing so quite nicely as Russia and China let it flail as harmlessly as possible on the way down.......no nukes......yes, more unfortunate deaths as the beast is hemmed in further and further.

Stumpy , Sep 18, 2018 9:07:06 PM | link
Just to reinforce the notion that a retaliatory display of force by Russia might bring about the R2P response the FUKUS is angling for. If the Israeli F-16s really pulled off the feint that caused an onside goal by the SAA, well, quite the maneuver, be it luck or sheer gall.

For all the Putin bashing going on, he appears to be the one riding the tiger. Taking on the entirety of the NATO-zionist alliance without support from China at the very least would undoubtedly be apocalyptic. Let the rooks and bishops set the trap.

james , Sep 18, 2018 10:06:50 PM | link
@205 oldenyoung.. check smoothies article, and in particular the comments also in the comment section..

http://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2018/09/russia-loses-recce-il-20-in-syria.html

Grieved , Sep 18, 2018 10:07:42 PM | link
Concerning Russia's next moves. It seems to me that between Putin and Shoigu, Russia immediately moved to present zero reason to react, and a total range of options to react, both at the same time. Russia has drawn a full hand of cards for whatever it chooses to do. Everyone can now wait, and nothing they do can change whatever Russia does. And everyone knows this.

I do admire what one commenter here said, that Putin does Diplomacy while Shoigu does Trouble.

As b reported, Putin has said the MOD's statement reflects the position of Russia and that it is fully coordinated with him. Putin himself has absolved Israel of an act of war, and removed any tension for that kind of response. Therefore the relationship between Israel and Russia can continue, and it will thus be up to Israel to maintain the smile as Russia upgrades its control of the airspace. The immediate response, as Putin says, will be to reinforce the protection of Russians in Syria - this can only mean by air.

The cards that the MOD drew, meanwhile, call Israel's act "hostile" and point out that the Israeli pilots could not have missed seeing the Russian plane, and thus deliberately hid behind it. Although b linked to the Sputnik report of this, it may help for a visceral understanding of Russia's take to watch Konashenkov deliver his statement. A two minute clip from Vesti News:

Official Statement from MoD on Downing Russian Il-20 Aircraft

The military will move to protect its soldiers from Israel. That's the next visible move. Whatever that takes, and in whatever form is effective. Nothing else is changed. France or the US don't seem to figure in the surface statements anywhere. Israel however is in the sights, and has disqualified itself from having any standing to protest at whatever restrictions Russia places on it.

alaric , Sep 18, 2018 10:08:28 PM | link
No one is talking about the Russian claim that they detected launches from a French frigate. The Russian gov later said the Israeli F-16s used the french frigate for cover.

This is sort of a big deal. If the Israelis launched missiles from nearby the French frigate (FS Auvergne) then this was an attempt by Israel to get Russia or Syria to hit a NATO vessel which is sick but certainly within the realm of possibilities when you are dealing with Israel. If that is the case (i don't know maybe, maybe not) then Israel just failed spectacularly and Russia and France would know what Israel tried.

Peter AU 1 , Sep 18, 2018 10:27:55 PM | link
Smoothies last update on the shootdown is a link to a Russian news site where an ex Ru airforce type says the Syrian air defences that are integrated with the Russian air defences , don't have friend or foe recognition.

Syrian air defences have been responding to US and Israeli missile attacks for some time now. When the missiles are coming in they don't sit down and have a smoke and wait for all Russian aircraft to land. They respond instantly and there has never been a recognition problem. Russians fully upgraded Syrian air defences and don't allow them to recognize Russian aircraft... bullshit. The US and Israeli's engineered the takedown of the Russian aircraft.
Stumpy's take "riding the tiger" seems apt.

psychohistorian , Sep 18, 2018 10:46:36 PM | link
@ Grieved with the link to the Russian military response...thanks

I agree with you that despite the loss of life, this further closes the container within which Israel can act. I expect Russia/Syria to further restrict the airspace and force Israel to attempt even riskier attacks.

The moments of truth will come when/if Israel starts losing its jets to failed attacks Will they go nuclear to avoid losing face over their self inflicted demise?

I guess the good part about this situation is that change like this provides opportunity for growth where none existed before. The yet to see part is whether humanity takes the opportunity to evolve or stay mired it the evolutionary dead end it is in.

jsb , Sep 18, 2018 11:11:38 PM | link
Interview posted today from Syria by Vanessa Beeley:

https://youtu.be/UA651DWgDi8

Hoarsewhisperer , Sep 18, 2018 11:49:35 PM | link
I very much doubt that the Russian leadership will somehow seriously answer Israel. The spinelessness of Russian politics sometimes simply amaze (it's worth recalling, for example, the epic with the seizure of Russian diplomatic property by the US authorities - there was no intelligible answer from Russia, and still(!) there's no answer).
...
Posted by: alaff | Sep 18, 2018 5:37:06 PM | 173

No answer is necessary. Seizing a foreign embassy was an (unforgettable) violation of International Law and long-standing, unanimously-respected principles of Diplomacy.
It was a public display of ultra-infantile Yankee Dumbfuckery.

psychohistorian , Sep 19, 2018 12:06:52 AM | link
I hadn't seen this quote from Putin but I could have missed it with the troll volume this has brought to MoA

"MOSCOW, Sept. 18 (Xinhua) -- Operations of the Israeli air force are undertaken in violation of Syria's sovereignty, Russian President Vladimir Putin told Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu by phone on Tuesday."

It goes on to say that he intends on protecting Russian forces. I read this to say that he intends on insuring that Syria has the ability to defend its sovereignty....including airspace.

Will Israel try more incursions before that capability is in place? Stupid is as stupid does applies to all humans and no ethnicity is excluded.

When does the world get to deal with the base issue of private/public finance? Any alien watching our world turn would laugh at our inability to observe, let alone self manage out of our parasitic social organization.

Pft , Sep 19, 2018 12:11:30 AM | link
Julian@206

Yes. According to the Times of Isreal there are 250,000 Jews living in Moscow. With a population over 11 million that's about 2.5%. Elsewhere the numbers are lower. About 1/3 of the Jewish population in Moscow have Israeli citizenship (83000). Of the 200 richest people in Russia, 25% are Jewish according to some reports. So their power is perhaps greater than their numbers as is seen elsewhere . This is neither good or bad of course unless the power is used to support Israel over their country of residence/citizenship

J Swift , Sep 19, 2018 12:31:02 AM | link
I do love Putin's style...almost poetic, certainly high drama. When he says this seems to have been a most unfortunate string of events leading to this tragedy--when the Israelis know good and goddamn well it wasn't, and they goddamn well know he knows it wasn't--I can hardly imagine anything more blood curdling to those treacherous bastards. What dread they must feel!

That this was a carefully crafted provocation is hard to dispute. Actually, I was fearing something serious ever since Russia made it's presentation of false flag preparations to the UNSC a week or two ago. There was plenty of ridicule, to the effect that what did Russia hope to gain, and how could it possibly prove iFUKUS was directly involved with the terrorists, and look how the warned attack wasn't materializing. Well I have a suspicion the evidence was damning indeed, and extremely thorough. Did you notice that there were none of the usual mocking leaks by the West about Russia's presentation? And lo and behold, a few days later the Hailey and the rest of the US officialdom suddenly declared that a chemical attack wasn't necessary after all for iFUKUS to spring into action and flatten Syria. ANY ATTACK ON IDLIB AT ALL would be enough to merit an attack by the West. Almost as an afterthought they started talking about their deep concern for the long-suffering civilians and lovable terrorists. And then I'll be damned if Russia and Turkey weren't able to work out an understanding on Idlib that would help protect civilians!! (Well...)

It was clear from all this that a significant provocation would have to be supplied, and pretty quickly. Now we know what it was. We don't know exactly what was SUPPOSED to happen...that French frigate firing at precisely that time and location is very interesting, and perhaps the hope was that Russian defenses would have immediately launched an ASM at the frigate, and away we go! The war would have escalated so sideways so fast only curious historians would have ever looked back at the Israeli F-16s and strange failures-to-warn and said "hmmm." No, it was a NATO+ operation of considerable planning and coordination. And while what others have commented about this placing additional domestic pressure on Putin will undoubtedly prove true, for 20+ years he has proven up to the task. So with no immediate response, it is the Israelis who are left holding the bag and now attempt to slink away with a weak non-apology, and it is they who they know will feel the heat that is to come--who knows what and from who knows where, but it will come. At the very least Russia will no doubt greatly increase their and Syria's AA defenses, and I could see it being a very extensive no-fly zone. But I'm pretty sure that won't be the only price Israel pays...and it couldn't happen to a more deserving pack of weasels.

james , Sep 19, 2018 1:03:32 AM | link
i apologize if it has already been posted, but it is worth the read ..elijah j. magnier.. Russia, USA, Israel, Iran and Syria: a continuous struggle to trigger or avoid war
Peter AU 1 , Sep 19, 2018 1:08:12 AM | link
@james, bullshit to the piece smoothie has linked to which he has taken the information from. Russia are operating aircraft constantly in Syria. Syrian air defence must have and does have the capability to react instantly to an attack. Russia have fully upgraded the systems and integrated them with their own.
Under these circumstances, do find you it conceivable that the Russian upgrade would not allow the Syrian radars to determine friend (Russian, Syrian aircraft) or foe. From my understanding it is the radar or control system that determines friend or foe, not the missile.
KarlAnderson , Sep 19, 2018 1:16:05 AM | link
Governments don't care about people, period. Russia is no different. Putin has to think long term. A handful of soldiers and a plane or two is not a big loss. Turkey is a big price to have on team Russia. Think about gas pipelines to EU, black sea and Ukraine, not just Syria. It's a balancing act with many goals and they of course diverge from what Damascus wants. But like one commenter said, Putin is inching closer and closer to all the goals while FUKUS and Israel throws tantrums and monkey wrenches in desperation.
Peter AU 1 , Sep 19, 2018 1:22:26 AM | link
How wide is the beam of the targeting radar.
Senario - going by the Russian mod map the Israeli planes come in behind and to one side of the Russian plane and launches missiles. Syrian targeting radar locks onto the missiles and launch SAMs. The Israeli missiles heading towards the coast further north cross behind the Russian aircraft which is also briefly illuminated by the targeting radar. If by that time the Syrian SMS are in close proximity, a second or so of illumination as the radar is tracking the missiles is all it would take
Grieved , Sep 19, 2018 1:24:07 AM | link
@213 psychohistorian - who wonders how long Israel can act as a fool (while the whole world continues to ignore the "base issue of private/public finance?")

I think it's really important to remember how thin the slices of escalation are. We have continually been schooled in this by Russia. Russia doesn't operate on the Hollywood scale of proportion of "one dumb white-hat punch versus one equally dumb black-hat punch". This is the unreality in which we in the west have previously been schooled.

Instead, Russia acts as if everything were very real and very serious. She acts in the slow movement of cats, or samurai warriors, when they face each other. Somewhere in the choreography is the killing blow, but where will it strike? Where will it land? Neither cats nor samurai fighters know. So they slice each movement very thin.

There is no straight line from where we are today to where we might wish to be tomorrow. There will be innumerable slices of escalation and play and counter-play as the dialog of violence talks itself through its many paces.

We should not wish to hurry the day when everyone in the world agrees that Russia has won a supreme victory that marks a turning point in the story of the human race. We should instead - if I may offer the suggestion - relish the small certainties of each day along this measured path.

And this is just as regards Syria. But you could extend it to your overarching point too.

~~

As to this other, I suspect the answer to your unending advocacy for human finance will sprout unnoticed from the ground, far away from the battlefields, as an authentic alternative that first they will ignore, then laugh at, then fight against, and then yield to as it wins.

Please never stop advocating for this. You're right that it underlies everything. The reminder is important. Sometimes you have to overturn a paradigm by hand-cranking the wheel.

Jen , Sep 19, 2018 1:25:40 AM | link
Perhaps what the Russians ought to do is open an investigation into the incident in which the Ilyushin transport plane was shot down and require all parties involved to attend as witnesses.

It would be in Israel's best interests then to surrender its fighter jet pilots who sheltered in the transport plane's radar shadow into Russian custody to give their point of view and explain their motives and behaviour. After all, the investigation would be as much to clear Israel of any blame if the pilots were to admit that they were not acting on orders.

If Israel were to refuse to surrender the pilots, then that reaction could be read by the Russians to mean that Israel bears guilt for the transport plane's shootdown.

Incidentally did anyone notice that what the fighter pilots did was exactly the same as what Ukrainian fighter jets were doing to civilian passenger jets during the Donbass war in 2014?

cdvision , Sep 19, 2018 1:31:42 AM | link
At this point, and in the absence of any evidence, I'm inclined to think the French frigate was unwittingly used by the Israeli's as cover, with the intention to draw fire on the frigate. How do those French sailors feel about being only a flick of a switch from incineration?

The only lingering question is what was the French frigate doing their in the first place?

Peter AU 1 , Sep 19, 2018 1:36:25 AM | link
Grieved "Russia doesn't operate on the Hollywood scale of proportion of "one dumb white-hat punch versus one equally dumb black-hat punch". This is the unreality in which we in the west have previously been schooled."

That is what I am seeing here and on other comment threads. A majority expecting Russia to be a Hollywood white hat and booing them if they don't measure up to Hollywood.

The rest of your post equally as good as that line.

Peter AU 1 , Sep 19, 2018 1:54:13 AM | link
Debsisdead

Putin's statement to the press
"First of all, I would like to express condolences to the families of the dead.

As for your comparison with the downing of our plane by a Turkish fighter, this was a different situation. The Turkish fighter deliberately shot down our aircraft.

In this case, it is more a chain of tragic circumstances because an Israeli fighter did not down our aircraft. It goes without saying that we must get to the bottom of this. Our attitude towards this tragedy is set forth in a statement by our Defence Ministry, and has been fully coordinated with me.

As for reciprocal action, this will be primarily aimed at ensuring additional security for our military and our facilities in the Syrian Arab Republic. These steps will be seen by everyone."
http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/58586

Note "Our attitude towards this tragedy is set forth in a statement by our Defence Ministry, and has been fully coordinated with me."

Plenty of links to the statement by the spokesman for the ministry of defence in this thread, also Shoigu's phone call to Lieberman.

Nutty's phone call to Putin..
http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/58589
The Israeli Prime Minister expressed his condolences over the death of the 15 servicemen aboard the Il-20 aircraft shot down in Syria on September 17. With respect to a thorough investigation, Benjamin Netanyahu promised to provide detailed information on the activities of the Israeli Air Force over Syrian territory on that day, which will be delivered soon to Moscow by the Israeli Air Force commander.

Vladimir Putin noted that operations of this nature by the Israeli Air Force are in violation of Syria's sovereignty. In this particular case, Russian-Israeli agreements on preventing dangerous incidents had not been observed either, and that resulted in the Russian aircraft coming under Syrian air defence fire. The Russian President called on the Israeli side to prevent such incidents in the future.

Pft , Sep 19, 2018 2:49:55 AM | link
Paul Craig Roberts who is one of Putins biggest supporters is displeased in his latest article. Its been brewing for awhile.

Regardless of where you stand on him, at some point we should be wondering if Israel/US has Kompromat on him. I have speculated on a few occasions that Putin might be controlled and this Cold War II is just a mutually beneficial fiction to feed the respective MIC and maintain/increase power.

Recently read that Russia is planning to criminalize fake news. Obviously empowered by peoples concern of western influence but as we all know such powers can be abused .

snedly arkus , Sep 19, 2018 3:02:25 AM | link
The Russian military is a defensive one to guard the homeland. Outside of Russia their military is at a disadvantage against the US, NATO, and Israel and they know it. With the US and it's bootlickers using every excuse in the book to sanction and destroy the Russian economy thus the nation Putin has to walk a fine line between all parties and can only spare a small force, which has done excellent work, in Syria. Putin knows full well the Israelis and the US are just begging for an excuse to wipe out the Russian force in Syria thus Putin has to take the punches and use his wits unlike the exceptional American keyboard warriors from the one indispensable nation on the planet who's answer to everything is brute force. One only has to see the results in Syria since the Russians have arrived and agree they have done a remarkable job even with the US backing and supplying the rebels. Russia is in Syria looking out for it's interests and it has no obligation to defend anyone as there is no country on the planet save China that would go to bat for Russia. Most any other country would have buckled and destroyed itself from within with the stuff the US and it's bootlickers have thrown at it but Russia is continuing to thrive thanks to Putin's focus on his country and people and countering those that wish to destroy Russia using his brains against stupid US brawn. As one commentor has said the world should be thankful for Putin's restraint as it's kept WW3 at bay.
somebody , Sep 19, 2018 3:11:36 AM | link
add to 237

Official statement on the telephone conversation between Putin and Netanyahu .

Vladimir Putin noted that operations of this nature by the Israeli Air Force are in violation of Syria's sovereignty. In this particular case, Russian-Israeli agreements on preventing dangerous incidents had not been observed either, and that resulted in the Russian aircraft coming under Syrian air defence fire. The Russian President called on the Israeli side to prevent such incidents in the future.

And - How Russia can respond to Israel following Ilyushin Il20 shootdown

partizan , Sep 19, 2018 3:26:54 AM | link
"Any resemblance to reality is purely coincidental"

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-09-18/norway-officials-admit-they-knew-nothing-about-libya-joined-regime-change-efforts

Top Norwegian officials have now admitted they "had very limited knowledge" of events unfolding in Libya during 2010 and 2011, prior to NATO's military intervention on behalf of anti-Gaddafi rebels -- a war that resulted in regime change and a failed state ruled by competing governments and extremist militias to this day. Norway enthusiastically joined the US, UK, and French led bombing of the country initiated in March 2011 even knowing full well its military knew next to nothing of what was unfolding on the ground.

But what did decision-makers have to go on? Consider this absurd admission from the official report: "In such situations, decision-makers often rely on information from media and other countries," the report reads.

Peter AU 1 , Sep 19, 2018 3:28:09 AM | link
Russia is on reasonable terms with Israel and recognizes the state of Israel. Russia is on good terms with both Iran and Syria and recognizes their legitimate governments and is insuring that the Syrian state is not destroyed by Israel US. Neither Syria nor Iran recognize the state of Israel. Russia does not interfere in Iran Syrian actions against Israel nor does it interfere in Israel direct actions against Syria Iran - till now. Russia has been the mediator.

Until now Israel has not risked burning its bridges with Russia. Now Nutty sends his airforce chief running off to Moscow with an olive branch in his mouth and another stuck in his arse for good measure.

Is Nutty trying to pull a swiftly or are US zionists trying to burn Nutty's bridge with Moscow...

partizan , Sep 19, 2018 3:31:28 AM | link
NATO's name for the operation was the US code name 'Operation Odyssey Dawn,' and Norway flew 596 strike missions during the first five months of the NATO intervention, dropping 588 bombs on Libyan targets, according to the report. Norway had provided six F-16 fighter jets and its pilots were reported to have conducted 10 percent of all coalition strikes against pro-Gaddafi forces.
partizan , Sep 19, 2018 3:36:21 AM | link
love these Scandinavian freedom and human right people and their naivety.
Norwegian , Sep 19, 2018 3:58:43 AM | link
@partizan 242,245,246

You are indeed correct to point his out. Remember, the word Quisling was invented here. As for our former PM Stoltenberg, now NATO chief, he is the ultimate hypocrite. His best 'defense' is that most likely they have something on him. The happenings of 22. July 2011 was a turning point. The victims within his party were advocating boycott of Israel the day before on that very island.

John Gilberts , Sep 19, 2018 4:35:38 AM | link
Putin's Forfeit - From Strategic Mistake to Strategic Defeat in 24 Hours

http://johnhelmer.net/putins-forfeit-from-strategic-mistake-to-strategic-defeat-in-24-hours/

Peter AU 1 , Sep 19, 2018 4:44:24 AM | link
Harry
Public admission on right or wrong is no problems. S-300 - much depends on how low Israel is willing to crawl. The more subservient to Russia Israel becomes, the less chance that Russia will supply an S-300 to Syria.

After Turkey shot down the Russian plane then kowtowed, Russia has signed a deal for the S-400 with Turkey. The Israeli attack it seems was due to Turkey reaching an agreement with Russia on Idlib. How about using future Israeli attacks in SAA territory as a gauge.

Jeremy , Sep 19, 2018 5:17:35 AM | link
Brendan O'Connell has been harping on the theme that Putin and Bibi are best buddies. According to him, Israel 'acquires' US tech and sells it to the Russians and the Chinese. He says that Russians living in Israel dominate the high tech sector in Israel and reverse engineer American high tech received by Israel. He is quite insistent that this is the big issue that still goes unrecognized. At the very least, his claims, which may be exaggerated or simply mistaken, should be critically examined. They would go a long way to explaining Putin's passivity. They point to material and financial considerations -- as opposed to ideological or political -- as having the uppermost importance, i.e., follow the money. O'Connell suggests that all of these leaders are in bed together and are just playing a game with us rubes. He's quite the cynic, but also quite entertaining.
Ghost Ship , Sep 19, 2018 5:21:15 AM | link
The main foreign policy issue of concern to Netanyahu is removing Iranian forces (how ever insignificant they are) from Syria. Netanyahu has been able to rely on some support from Putin for this up until now. How much longer?

As for all the idiotic (IQ < 25) losers trolling here, as Clausewitz said, "war is the mere continuation of politics with other means" (not "by other means"), so war is all about politics. As Iraq and Afghanistan have shown recently, you can have the allegedly "most powerful military" in the world but if you don't understand the politics, you will lose, lose and keep on fucking losing. FUKUS have wanted regime change in Damascus for the last several years but it hasn't happened so FUKUS are the fucking losers so far and Putin will now ensure they go on losing.

Peter AU 1 , Sep 19, 2018 5:40:56 AM | link
Harry, how long would Syria last if Russia handed them the Keys to an S-300 system and walked away. Not long. Russia has inserted themselves into Syria to prevent the destruction of Syria by foreign and proxy forces.
A better gauge than an S-300 is required.
somebody , Sep 19, 2018 5:45:20 AM | link
Russian interest in the Middle East

- make sure there are no alternative gas pipelines to Europe
- make sure there is no ethnic/religious independence threat to Caucasus region
- sale of arms

Iranian interest in the Middle East
- make sure there is no ethnic/religious independence threat to Iran

Saudi problem with Iran
- ethnic/religious indepence threat of their oil rich region
- the Strait of Hormuz

Israeli problem
- feeling delegitimized and threatened by everybody

So if Middle Easterners could dial down on the threat level ...

Present US interests in the Middle East
- a Christian Zionist electorate
- Saudi money
- sale of arms

Chinese interest in the Middle East
- oil, lots of oil

As long as Saudi Arabia and Iran cannot solve their problem, this rift will be exploited by other powers for their own ends

I probably missed some stuff. But Russian interests are best served by selling to all countries.

Charles Wood , Sep 19, 2018 5:46:11 AM | link
IFF is an add-on pack to the command vehicle in the S200 battery. It is used to inform the battery commander of targets, or targets to avoid, prior to launch.

Once a missile is launched IFF is no longer used.

It is possible that either the SAA S200 battery saw IFF of the IL20 and thought it was spoofed (not unreasonable), or the Israeli aircraft suppressed the IFF response received by the SAA battery.

What is also likely is that the SAA / RuAF integration in air defence is less than optimal.

Ghost Ship , Sep 19, 2018 5:49:05 AM | link
Meanwhile back in the real world, the trap that Putin has set for the jihadist losers with the latest agreement is pretty fucking obvious except perhaps to the fuckwit trolls that have infected this site recently.

The Russians have given the jihadists until 15th October, 2018 to leave the demilitarised zone but the jihadists have rejected the agreement on Idlib so they're not going to move . In a month or so the SAA/Russia can slice 15-20km off Idlib any time they like after that with nothing more than a rant from Nikki Haley and some CIF crap. The first 20 km gives the SAA Khan Shaykhoun and Jisr ash-Shugur. Another month and the SAA can quite "legally"*** take the whole southern Idlib. Looks to me like Putin is relying yet again on the complete lack of strategic understand demonstrated by the fuckwits, whoever they might be, backing the jihadists.
Even if the jihadists do pull back, which I doubt, they are stupid enough to breach the ceasefire within a month or so because their imbecilic patrons pay to see "action".

*** - of course, the SAA can legally take Syrian territory any time it likes but FUKUS would disagree and might take illegal actions to prevent it. With the jihadists breaking the Idlib agreement, it would be harder for FUKUS to become involved not that it would necessarily stop them but do they really want a World War in defence of Al Qaeda?.

somebody , Sep 19, 2018 5:52:46 AM | link
add to 257
I forgot the price of oil
Iran OPEC chief: 'Saudi and Russia are taking oil market hostage'
and
Russia tells Washington to Leave Iran Alone
In a plot fit for an award-winning drama series, last week U.S. Secretary of Energy Rick Perry traveled to Moscow to discuss energy topics with Novak. Although no details concerning oil markets were disclosed, these were bound to have been discussed: Perry praised Russia for its readiness to keep oil supply stable just as he warned Moscow to "stop using energy as a weapon."

In a no less charming puzzle of mixed signals, earlier this week Iran's OPEC governor accused its friend Russia and foe Saudi Arabia of stealing its market share and enjoying higher oil revenues at Tehran's expense. A day later, Foreign Ministry spokesman Bahram Quasemi dismissed "media reports" containing these accusations, saying, "We do not agree with some reports of media."

Everyone involved in this geopolitical dance seems to be walking a thin line between its interests and those of other stakeholders that are at odds with its own.

pB , Sep 19, 2018 7:48:31 AM | link
@ ike 199 "so the Israel's are killing their own".

unthinkable! https://www.wrmea.org/2018-august-september/the-dark-secret-of-israels-stolen-babies.html

J Swift , Sep 19, 2018 7:58:54 AM | link
Putin is the master of cool understatement, and his comment about what a complex chain of accidents were required to lead to this tragedy I took to be dripping with venom. Especially since the Israelis know perfectly well this was intentional, and they know Putin knows. I would say they are extremely nervous right now.

A major provocation was inevitable. The false flag chemical attack was disrupted with apparently magnificent intel. I heard a lot of scoffing when Russia presented evidence to the UNSC, but it must have been unusually damning and conclusive of direct Western collision with the terrorists. Did you notice there were none of the now customary Western leaks mocking the Russian presentation? Not a peep. Suddenly Hailey and the shills just changed their tune, that in fact a chemical attack wasn't necessary for them to act, that any attack at all upon terrorists in Idleb would be sufficient. Belatedly they started mentioning their overwhelming concern for the safety of the citizens, but then Russia and Turkey reached an understanding which would (at least in theory) address that. The neocons and zionists were apoplectic. Something had to be done!

It is hardly debatable that this was a very carefully orchestrated and coordinated NATO+I operation. The West no doubt knew the Russian aircraft's patrol area and customary length of mission so this could be timed for when it was low on fuel and returning to base, its movements most predictable.

The French frigate was just where it needed to be to provide cover and fire missiles. We can only guess as to how the operation was supposed to conclude...probably with the hopes that the Russians would assume the French had shot down their plane and fire off an ASM or two (those Brit planes were probably lurking in the background to provide additional cover for the frigate to beat a hasty retreat and provide quick escalatory counter-attack).

It was a quite sophisticated neocon war plan. The only thing that failed was the immediate response by Russia. Now Israel is left holding the bag and no doubt extremely nervous about kicking the hornet's nest. We don't know all the ways Russia will respond, but life will become much more difficult for Israeli pilots, and at the very least Russia will "for the good of everyone and to prevent such accidents in the future" more or less close at least a large hunk of Syrian airspace...but I bet there will be all sorts of "accidents" involving Israeli and other Western operatives. Russia has already demonstrated its intel is frightening, I'd say they will use it.

somebody , Sep 19, 2018 7:59:33 AM | link
add to 266

This is what it is about - pressuring Syria to drop the alliance with Iran .

A Russian-Iranian-Turkish - by extension Syrian - alliance is what they do not want.

Pft , Sep 19, 2018 8:10:38 AM | link
Jeremy@254

Thanks for the tip on Brendan O'Connell. Do you have a link as I have been thinking along the same lines, which probably make us one of a dozen out of 7 billion 99% ers, or have I understated this? A quick search shows he was jailed for critizing Israel in AU and his blog was shut down. I dont do twitter

CarlD , Sep 19, 2018 8:50:19 AM | link
One thing puzzles me:

The IL 20 must have been squawking their assigned transponder code that would tell Russian Radars that this aircraft is a friend.

Not to long ago, Israeli planes squawked US transponders IDs so the Russians did not fire at them and they were able to drop their missiles
and return safely home.

In the same vein, if the SAA AD is linked to the Russian radars, how can a missile guided by this radar go after an aircraft displaying friendly numbers?

What kind of EW were the F-16 using if they got the Russian radars to allow shooting at an identified Friend?

Then, on approach to a runway, all aircraft will be squawking assigned transponder codes. Therefore there is something fishy in the narrative
that it was an S200 salvo that downed the IL 20.

Brian , Sep 19, 2018 9:26:49 AM | link
Perer AU 1 @ 108 I wholly agree with Peter. I find the comments on this thread totally out of character with the informed and balanced comments usually found on this site. Russia doesn't do knee-jerk. They analyse, prepare and if necessary act in their best interests (and those of the whole planet) to prevent a wider war. Don't confuse comment for response.

Jackrabbit @ 198 above. For an interesting analysis of this event and the French involvement in it have a look at this: https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/full-analysis-russian-disinfo-campaign-blames-israel-for-il-20-plane-downing-yet-exonerates-france/ Makes a lot of sense on many levels.

Ghost Ship , Sep 19, 2018 9:41:16 AM | link
For all the noise about the Skripals and chemical weapons in Syria, the last thing the British government wants is a war with anyone because unless the government goes straight to thermonuclear weapons, it is fucked if it starts a conventional war with any country other than San Marino*** or Sark. Eight years of austerity and overpriced hardware has gutted the British military until it's little more than a glorified militia which would be locked up by the police if it went with a coup. Back in the 1980s, there was much talk of a military coup in the UK if the Labour Party under Michael Foot won an election. The reduction in the size of the UK military and events in Iraq now mean that anyone suggesting that a military coup might take place in the UK if the Labour Party and Jeremy Corbyn win the next election would be given a one-way ticket to the funny farm along with Boris Johnson.

As for the rest of NATO, including all the Netherland's tank divisions, it's also pretty well fucked and most likely incapable of organising a piss up in a brewey. NATO can't even do a decent black propaganda operation. Anything more complex, such as a "very carefully orchestrated and coordinated NATO+I operation", forget it

Guerrero , Sep 19, 2018 9:42:21 AM | link
Brian at 273: analysis of the French involvement in it; have a look at this: https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/full-analysis-russian-disinfo-campaign-blames-israel-for-il-20-plane-downing-yet-exonerates-france/ Makes a lot of sense on many levels.

I agree. Flores may have nailed it.

Zanon , Sep 19, 2018 10:06:00 AM | link
somebody

Israel hit:

In a series of tweets the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) explained that its jets were targeting a Syrian facility "from which systems to manufacture accurate and lethal weapons were about to be transferred on behalf of Iran to Hezbollah in Lebanon." It claimed that the weapons were "meant to attack Israel."
https://www.rt.com/news/438712-idf-statement-il20-downing/
An hour-long attack on Latakia began around 10pm local time, and targeted a power station as well as two facilities belonging to the Syrian military. Syrian officials said the attack was "foreign" and came "from the sea," but could not initially confirm rumors that Israel was behind it. Seven people were injured in the attack, according to Syrian officials.
https://www.rt.com/news/438673-russian-il20-disappears-radars/

Some witness: 'Rockets falling, explosions over sea': Witnesses recall moment of Israeli raid in Latakia (VIDEO) https://www.rt.com/news/438774-israel-raid-syria-witnesses/

Veritas X- , Sep 19, 2018 10:13:35 AM | link
I just read the following HERE: https://syrianperspective.com/2018/09/stunning-double-ambush-by-af-intel-in-homs-reveals-american-criminal-conduct-attack-on-latakia-still-muddled.html

Whether it's true or false, I can't confirm now.
However, *Igor Bundy* is someone who I believe to be a highly credible source.
Please mind the 'paste job'.
Most Important is YOU see what's been posted the past hour.
>>>>>>>>>>
Igor Bundy

Russia declares no fly zone over Israel coast and northern Israel..

Syrian radar data shows it is not responsible for shooting down the Russian IL20..

comment image

Based on NOTAMs issued by #Russia|n Navy, if an #Israel|i fighter jet wants to fly out of #Israel & even attack #Syria, it must fly above 19,000ft. If flies below, it will be shot-down by Russian S-300F. But flying above 19,000ft will cause their shot-down by #Syria|n S-200s!

#Russia|n Navy "Marshal Ustinov" (055) Slava-class guided missile cruiser which has 64 S-300F surface to air missiles is now sailing in #MediterraneanSea waters NW. of #Israel. However it has blocked airspace over NW of Israel till FL190 but its S-300s are dangerous till FL900!
3 Reply
39 minutes ago
Igor Bundy
Guest
Level 8 - Legatus Legionis
Igor Bundy

#Russia not received data from #Israel on situation with IL-20 in #Syria – Peskov https://sptnkne.ws/j9ce

-#Russia launched an S-400 missile/s against the Israeli jets which were dropping bombs 100Km away, so we're kept in the dark for now.

-#Russia responded immediately to the attack before the il-20M was lost Because the S-200 missiles were launched 20 min after the first wave.

-The attack lasted about 50 min, so only 4 F-16 doing the bombing is unlikely
0 Reply
28 minutes ago
Igor Bundy
Guest
Level 8 - Legatus Legionis
Igor Bundy

Missing from the Russian map are the two British Air Force planes reported in Israel to have taken off from the Akrotiri airbase in Cyprus, and to have maintained a holding pattern above the flight path of the Israeli F-16 fighter-bombers as they moved into their firing positions.

Russian S-400 anti-aircraft missiles protect the Khmeimim airbase; their radar and strike ranges are at least 400 kilometres. On Monday evening this meant that Russian air defence crews and the Khmeimim base command tracked the Israeli aircraft from their takeoff positions out into the Mediterranean, and then as they turned north on their attack run. The S-400 crews were also tracking the British aircraft as they took off from Cyprus. When the French frigate Auvergne fired missiles, the S-400 crews at Khmeimim tracked their flight paths.

Subsequent Russian press reports and Defence Ministry releases say the timing of the IDF firing at Latakia, the French missile launches, and the destruction of the Il-20 occurred within seconds of one another.

http://johnhelmer.org/?p=17934
0 Reply
4 minutes ago

Guerrero , Sep 19, 2018 10:18:52 AM | link
Grieved at 225:We should not wish to hurry the day when everyone in the world agrees that Russia has won a supreme victory that marks a turning point in the story of the human race. We should instead - if I may offer the suggestion - relish the small certainties of each day along this measured path.

Likewise in a chess match, an objective assessment of position rarely admits checkmate.

THE GENIUS

W. Shakespeare

No limit, no space, no horizon;
And leave him drawing from his flight
The gigantic curve in the void.
March on your mission, march; heaven
Does not have the measure
From his wings of fire; the spaces
They shudder at the breath of their life.
Marching is your mission, to go without respite
Of the infinite arcane
Through the dark and eternal path,
Riding, sovereign rider,
On the tame steed of destiny.

partizan , Sep 19, 2018 10:23:18 AM | link
More fake news, from the Russian journalist. Interesting comments though.

"Source: #Syrian counterespionage arrested entire 44th air defense battalion, whose S-200 reportedly shot down Russian Il-20"

https://twitter.com/SyriaWarReports/status/1042335555130937346

Arioch , Sep 19, 2018 11:22:17 AM | link
@Grom #149

> Il-20s don't grow on trees!!!

True, but it is most probably not the last Il-20 that Russia has. It is a huge loss, but it is not a devastating loss yet. Same about the SIGINT professionals perished with the plane.

> Why did they allow the Israelis to get *so dangerously close* to their prized asset - the Il-20

They commanded Il-20 to go landing - a bit too late as it turned out. I also think that Israel jets are barraging in Israeli and international air around Syria pretty regular. Should Russians down all their planes when Israeli jets are in air? That would be a de facto Israel's no fly zone over Syria.

In a hindsight Il-20 should had better be ordered to land on some faraway airfield instead.... Well, hindsight is cheap.

> What about the Russian EW-systems?

I do not think they were ready to deflect Syrian missiles, even if that could be technically possible. However the question how can Russian aircrafts be better protected from the event of SAA AD friendly fire is very important.

> Why was the Il-20 not escorted?

What would it change? Would the said escort bomb out al lthe Syrian S-200 stations in the firing range around?

> 4) What about Russian-Syrian coordination??? We know that the S-200s operated by the Syrians had been upgraded/serviced - this *must* have included the surveillance/tracking radars, as well as the IFF systems. So how could the Syrian SAM crews even fire the missile? Even if the Israelis claim that they informed the Russians just short of a minute or so before the strike, the Russians *must have seen - AND - tracked* the flight of the F-16s well in advance and even from their take-off, so they *should have informed* the Syrians.

very good set of questions, but I think most of it would be military secrets.

Few thoughts about though:

4.a) other states than Russia should not get Russian military IFF systems. Or they would end up in USA/Israel hands. For example Iran could not save their lead nuclear physics scientists from assassination. Israeli agents are in numbers all through middle east. Also Israel has a number of Soviet tanks taken form Arab states in 1960-s and 1970-s.

All Soviet military secrets that could had been in those tanks - fallen into Israeli/NATO hands then. So, no. Russia would not want USA strategic bombers raining nukes over Russian cities using cloned Russian-Syrian IFF units to disable all Russian AD missiles, period.

4.b) as the infamous video about Pantsir-S1 destruction suggests, Syrian AD crew are not very well educated and disciplined. Of course SAA should not fire old dumb S-200 missile when big ally aircraft was within the range. If anything that was exactly how Ukraine downed civilian aircraft over Black Sea in 2001 and they used exactly the S-200 missile. Frankly, I am not very much concerned about Israel behavior, they are not Russian allies and they are officially at war with Syria. So blaming Israeli on failing to secure Russian personnel is futile. But the [mis]performance of SAA AD crew - if the story reported by Russian MoD is true - is saddening and alarming.

> What about Israeli EW-capabilities? Are Israeli F-16s now equipped with systems that allow them to fool Russian & Syrian radars and EW systems to the point where they can fly and approach a highly hostile area literally *undisturbed*,

If so, then they "showed their hand" prematurely for a questionable limited reward.
They spoiled their top secret then, if that was so.

> Shouldn't Russia lodge an official complaint and demand explanations from Paris?

Maybe. But there would be no point in reading Paris's explanation. If it will even come. Remind me, did Paris answered to Russian enquiry about Skripals affair misinvestigation?

jason , Sep 19, 2018 11:28:25 AM | link
no one has mentioned the domestic audience in israel.

the few friends in israel that i talked to and their military "happiness" level is on par with some of the US military folks morale back home. near suicidal sadly. the truth is the more the media and these trolls spin it as some kind of "smart" move by upvoting and jerking themselves off mutually like homos...really has not gained an ounce of approval in their own citizen's hearts, who are tired of war.

this is asides from the traitors within israel themselves drowning from the innocent blood they spill justifying it as some kind of revenge for the yom kippur and early state wars that they know is irrelevant. these little cunts sound like some nerds giggling about murder. their excuse like the nazi's will be "it was just orders"........ ironic. a lot of my jewish friends are great friends to me so i prefer not to paint the entire country with a broad stroke of stereotype.

the younger generation constantly booze themselves and drug themselves to erase the faked reality of being told they are doing good for their countrymen. it is a battle of the subconscious for their own souls and spirit and they are losing it daily. they are preparing for the big war with hezbollah (secretly in their hearts) which they know will not be as easily done as what their media paints it to be. pray for these innocents. from hearing about their grandfathers actually fighting off the entire neighborhood into patrolling the entire neighborhood to their own detriment. they are even losing faith in their God because of these traitors.

some would sell you this as a smart move to force putin to show his cards, but again putin is too sharp to overreact. the more insults the more certain putin is that he made the right move. he has russia's interests in his mind. and making such impulsive moves will destabilize the progress the economy of Russia has going for itself. it must be frustrating, i am sure these nerds are hoping that Putin grows too old quickly.

[Sep 19, 2018] Does Israel really care? It seems that Bibi Netanyahu and Avigdor Lieberman believe they can act with impunity since no one has held them to account to date.

Sep 19, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

smoothieX12 . -> blue peacock , 14 hours ago

Does Israel really care? It seems that Bibi Netanyahu and Avigdor Lieberman believe they can act with impunity since no one has held them
to account to date.

Yes she does, otherwise CO of IAF wouldn't have been on his way to Moscow and Bibi urgently calling Putin. Once one gets more complete details of the event, such as teeny-weeny fact of Russia not providing Syrian AD (and with a good reason) with own IFF technology and codes--things become much more clearer. This was confirmed today. Of course military counter-intelligence still has to do its due diligence but it increasingly begins to look more as FUBAR rather than some "special" operations. Most likely, in fact highly likely, IAF F-16s were detected and tracked (and even possibly locked on) by Syrian S-200 and they "masked" (the oldest trick in the book) by descending IL-20. Putin was explicit in his conversation with Bibi that Israel not only violates Syria's airspace but violated previous agreements with Russia on matters of attacking Syrian/Iranian targets. There will be consequences and Putin also was explicit today when stated that, and I quote, "everyone will notice them". While it is a sad day for Russia and is agony for families of the crew, it is also clear (and thank God) that France and her ship had no hand in it whatsoever.

Is Putin between a rock and a hard place in Syria? He's committed significant capabilities to assist Assad in regaining control of Syrian territory, but FUKUS and Turkey are playing a spoilers game with the possibility that they could enter the Syrian conflict with an even larger force structure.

Actually, he didn't commit "significant" capabilities. They are very moderate by Russia standards. You want to see significant capabilities--Google Vostok 2018. That's significant. The appearance of new capabilities in Syria is long overdue, precisely for the reason that it is Russia who is keeping a barrel to Turkey's temple, not the other way around. They are needed their anyway just in case FUKUS decides to respond to absolutely unexpected and evil chemical weapons attacks by Assad.

FB Ali -> smoothieX12 . , 11 hours ago
It seems to me that Putin's response was too 'soft'. Unlike Shoigu's.

Perhaps there is some divergence between Russian political and military policies with regard to Israel. What happens as a result of this tragedy will clarify matters. Putin cannot afford to alienate his military (and thus the Russian people) for the sake of Israel.

Pat Lang Mod -> FB Ali , 9 hours ago
Right. One must ask why Putin is acting this way. He has actually taken Trump off the hook. If the offensive had gone in Trump would have been under a lot of pressure to take military action when the WH drama played out. The DMZ agreement prevents that, and now he takes this soft line over this bit of Israeli cleverness that cost Shoigu 14 men for no good reason, Curious. One might think he does not want to rock the boat before the mid term.
smoothieX12 . -> Pat Lang , an hour ago
Right. One must ask why Putin is acting this way. He has actually
taken Trump off the hook. If the offensive had gone in Trump would have
been under a lot of pressure to take military action when the WH drama
played out.

Bingo! Plus a chance for Turkey to clean up her act a bit. It is a good old anecdote about two bulls (old and young) standing on the hill looking down at the cows' herd.

Pat Lang Mod -> smoothieX12 . , 15 minutes ago
Yup "let's walk down and do them all ..."
smoothieX12 . -> FB Ali , an hour ago
Perhaps there is some divergence between Russian political and military policies with regard to Israel.

This divergence is mostly a fantasy of Western political class and media. They project their own view on how their own government operates (or rather does not) onto Kremlin and that is why they always wrong.

Bálint Somkuti -> FB Ali , 5 hours ago
There is a growing sentiment, that Russia is handling too softly the attacks on its armed forces. The lack of visible or spectacular retaliations, counteractions is making an impression of a very narrow set of choices in Russia's Syria policy.
smoothieX12 . -> Bálint Somkuti , an hour ago
There is a growing sentiment, that Russia is handling too softly the attacks on its armed forces.

Growing among who? Armchair strategists? Granted, I am one myself.

uncle tungsten -> smoothieX12 . , 9 hours ago
Hahahahha good try smoothie but with due respect I take it you meant a "white helmets chemical weapons attack". It is ok now to drop the myth and speak truth to the war criminals hiding within the white helmets.

The Israeli government delights in taking sniper shots and seeing innocents accidentally killed. In this case they were attacking Stria to sabotage their fight against UN declared terrorists. Disgraceful and an abandonment of all that is held high in civil society.

smoothieX12 . -> uncle tungsten , an hour ago
Hahahahha good try smoothie

Yeah, I am not evidently very good in conveying sarcasm.

David Habakkuk , 7 minutes ago
All, re the Joaquin Flores piece.

I would normally totally discount this as the wrong kind of 'conspiracy theory', and I think that is still very highly likely to be the most appropriate response. It would be surprising if the French were prepared to leave a 'smoking gun' on the deliberate shooting down of a Russian aircraft, and the explanation Flores gives of this does seem tortuous.

However, there do seem to be some puzzles about the French – and British – roles which need sorting out.

At the outset, the Russians were clearly pointing to the French.

What may have survived, when that story was replaced by the far more plausible one of a 'friendly fire' incident provoked by the Israelis, is the suggestion that the French frigate was firing missiles.

So in 'Haaretz' this morning, we found Anshel Pfeffer writing that 'France denied any involvement in the downing of the Russian Ilyushin Il-20, but, interestingly, did not deny launching missiles.'

(See https://www.haaretz.com/mid... .)

Moreover, he goes on to write that:

'Something was obviously going on Monday night. Not only Russian and (allegedly) Israeli and French aircraft and missiles were in the air. Civilian radar also tracked British Royal Air Force aircraft, which, unusually, had switched on their transponders and gone into holding patterns – most likely to avoid being somehow involved in the exchange of fire over Latakia. The Ilyushin Il-20 was not so fortunate.'

It would not seem inherently so terribly surprising if indeed the French vessel did fire missiles. However, I am curious as to what kinds of explanations of this seem most plausible.

Likewise, the RAF switching on transponders is not so very odd. However, it would seem to make the one minutes's notice given to the Russians stand out even more than it did already.

Obviously, this could easily be explained by 'cock-up' – Israeli fighters seeking safety by hiding behind the Russian plane, and the 'deconfliction' not working according to plan.

It could also, however, be explained by conspiracy. And if there was an Israeli conspiracy, then questions might at least arise as to whether there was prior knowledge on the part of others, which raises the possibility of either tacit, or active, encouragement..

Albano Pina , 3 hours ago
Joaquín Flores has an interesting, however unconfirmable, reading of the facts.
See here: https://www.fort-russ.com/2...
Anyway, after what happened in the last 60 hours, if FUKUS still wants to take an early military iniciative, it must do it bluntly, without justifications, by means of grossly evident provocation or direct attack. The white helmets/gas attacks mantra became, somehow, a bit awkward.
Pat Lang Mod -> Albano Pina , an hour ago
Joaquin Flores? I don't read other blogs or similar sources. Too busy with DC sources.
Walrus , 4 hours ago
Putins measured diplomacy and apparent charitable responses to deliberate provocations have two downsides' Russian public opinion of /Putin as "weak" and the emboldening of American neocons. At some point Putin, goaded or not, is going to have to respond with force.
william mcdonald -> Walrus , an hour ago
I believe when it happens, they will see some real "shock and awe."
PRC90 , 10 hours ago
The question of a passive homing SAM navigating it's way to the largest radar cross section within it's arc, and not to the smaller returns from alleged nearby strike aircraft was raised in relation to MH17. If this occurred here then IAF casual reliance on a misplaced belief in the competence of the SAA air defences may be a tenuous way to blame Israel.
However, Russian EW data hoovered up during the attack may show another story.

Another obvious question is the 'one minute' warning time given by IAF. The Russians would have been aware of the ingressing F16's and probably their actual takeoff's but did not clear their own IL-20 aircraft out of the airspace ahead of them, possibly indicating that an IAF presence was a regular and normal event not necessarily resulting in strikes. What is on IAF / US EW data as intercepted Russian voice and data link material may show the details of that - not that anything but the cherry picks will ever be released.

Lauren Johnson , 11 hours ago
FWIW Joaquin Flores at Fort Russ argues the French did it and Russians have a disinfo campaign going for diplomatic reasons:

https://www.fort-russ.com/2...

Snow Flake -> Lauren Johnson , 2 hours ago
elegantly argued narrative.
luke8929 , 15 hours ago
Is the hotline between the Russians and the Israeli's still in place because if it is then the Russians are giving tacit approval for future strikes, its not as if the Russians are going to get the call and say no we don't approve of this one and the IAF is going to turn around and go home. This isn't the same as the hotline between the Russians and the US as they both have a common enemy, ISIS, Al Qaeda etc. The US isn't intentionally targeting the Syrians and Iranians, the Israeli's are specifically targeting them and they are supposed to be Russian allies. I don't see how the Russians get a pass on this until they completely stop all IAF activity directed at Syria.

[Sep 19, 2018] Russia Not Received Data From Israel on Situation With IL - 20 in Syria - Peskov

Sep 19, 2018 | sputniknews.com

MOSCOW (Sputnik) - Russia has not yet received data from Israel on the situation with the IL-20 aircraft crash in Syria, experts will examine it in due time, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Wednesday.

[Sep 19, 2018] Putins measured diplomacy and apparent charitable responses to deliberate provocations have two downsides' Russian public opinion of /Putin as "weak" and the emboldening of American neocons.

Sep 19, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

Walrus , 11 hours ago

Putins measured diplomacy and apparent charitable responses to deliberate provocations have two downsides' Russian public opinion of /Putin as "weak" and the emboldening of American neocons. At some point Putin, goaded or not, is going to have to respond with force.
william mcdonald -> Walrus , 9 hours ago
I believe when it happens, they will see some real "shock and awe."
Eugene Owens -> william mcdonald , 5 hours ago
I believe Putin's response will be more subtle. Something by the GRU rather than by force. What? I have no clue. Some type of blackmail? I would bet they have plenty of dirt on the Israeli Defense Minister, Mad Dog Avigdor. Or perhaps giving more of a greenlight to IRGC/Hez? Not that they need one but he has reportedly in the past discouraged them, and kept them away from the Golan. Speedily completing the Syrian S-300 build-up. Funding Hamas? Exposure of Israeli meddling in the Ukraine? Assisting the IRGC in an attack or two on Israeli interests in Europe or Latin America or ...? All of the above? Plenty of other indirect non-kinetic options are available to them.
marc b. -> Eugene Owens , 4 hours ago
not sure the MOD or the man on the street will be placated with a subtle but brilliant chess move. they are likely looking for more of a kick in the balls. what is this, the 3rd strike what with the turks and americans already?

[Sep 19, 2018] Another obvious question is why only the 'one minute' warning time was given by IAF.

Sep 19, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

PRC90 , 18 hours ago

The question of a [edited !] semi-active homing SAM navigating it's way to the largest radar cross section within it's arc, and not to the smaller returns from alleged nearby strike aircraft was raised in relation to MH17.

If this occurred here then IAF casual reliance on a misplaced belief in the competence of the SAA air defences may be a tenuous way to blame Israel. However, Russian EW data hoovered up during the attack may show another story.

Another obvious question is the 'one minute' warning time given by IAF.

The Russians would have been aware of the ingressing F16's and probably their actual takeoff's but did not clear their own IL-20 aircraft out of the airspace ahead of them, possibly indicating that an IAF presence was a regular and normal event not necessarily resulting in strikes.

What is on IAF / US EW data as intercepted Russian voice and data link material may

[Sep 19, 2018] Whet crew of Il-20 was doing when Israeli jets approach it and fly above and form a bookshelf formation?

Sep 19, 2018 | thesaker.is

parrhesiastes on September 19, 2018 , · at 8:23 pm EST/EDT

Maybe the landing approach thesis works – experts in Russ aviation would know if Russ equivalent to(US/UK) AN/APS-13 aft approach radar, used since 1942 in a series of versions, was/is fitted to Il20 in question.

Seems that anybody smart enough to build radar would fit tailradar in combat zone, and leave it on. Note actual radar may have been superseded by an infra red detector a question for experts. Has been long time since 1942, technical methods improve. And the search radars?

Ok, pilot, engineer, copilot are doing approach and busy and everybody else just being inattentive? F 16 were not tracked the entire time? Again, maybe. Radar works at 6000 feet and horizon still 152 km away F16 can't sneak up unseen fast but not that fast

I always maintain situational awareness in war zones, helps to live longer.

software of S200 can not target friendlies, system was is integrated.

[Sep 19, 2018] Destroying Syria is primary for US Hegemony and Israeli dominance

Notable quotes:
"... Exactly. The zionazis want Syria. They are activating all their options and working overtime to keep their proxies employed against Syria. If the zionazis cant take Syria, it means they don't get to have Lebanon either. It also means their attempt to wreck Iran and reduce it to a failed state is a non starter. ..."
Sep 19, 2018 | thesaker.is

vot tak on September 19, 2018 , · at 1:00 pm EST/EDT

"Also, speaking of Syria: has anybody noticed that the agreement between Turkey and Russia has removed any justification for a US attack on Syria and that the Israelis have organized their latest little bloody stunt right after this deal was announced?"

Exactly. The zionazis want Syria. They are activating all their options and working overtime to keep their proxies employed against Syria. If the zionazis cant take Syria, it means they don't get to have Lebanon either. It also means their attempt to wreck Iran and reduce it to a failed state is a non starter.

Larchmonter445 on September 19, 2018 , · at 1:21 pm EST/EDT
Syria is the keystone. The geography is a primary target for the destruction of ME. It has cultural and economic ties that bind most of the region. Destroying Syria is primary for US Hegemony and Israeli dominance.

But Turkey, Iran, Iraq and now Russia stand in the way. With Hezbollah, Lebanon is joined to the alliance against the US-Israeli aggression. And strategically, Jordan will facilitate what it can to stabilize the region.

This alienation of Putin and the Russian military and people by Israel, the US, UK and France will long be remembered across the Motherland. Syria now more than ever is a land of sacrificed sons of Russia. The stakes are now eternal.

Anonius on September 19, 2018 , · at 3:06 pm EST/EDT
This is exactly the point. People, commentators, should never forget that about half of Israel's Jewish population are Russians (or used to be, I suspect dual citizens). These people have extended families in Russia. Putin knows what he is doing. He can not alienate people at home.
Katherine on September 19, 2018 , · at 4:50 pm EST/EDT
The two preceding comments seem to be mutually exclusive, i .e., in direct contradiction:

1. "This alienation of Putin and the Russian military and people by Israel,"

2. "This is exactly the point. People, commentators, should never forget that about half of Israel's Jewish population are Russians (or used to be, I suspect dual citizens). These people have extended families in Russia. Putin knows what he is doing. He can not alienate people at home."

But, "the point" in (1) seems, actually, to be the exact opposite.
So, has the incident alienated Russians from Israel? Or, can Russia not "afford" to be alienated from Israel because there are too many Russian Israelis?

Or is it the other way around? That Russian Israelis will not stand for their government's treatment of Russia? Somehow I suspect that Russian/ex-Soviet Israelis won't give a flying eff about their govt's treatment of Russia, and the same goes for their relatives inside Russia. They hated the USSR and couldn't wait to get away. Why does Putin have to cater to the views of these emigres to Israel, Russian Israelis, or to their families back in Russia? How do the latter differ from Zionists in the USA who have dual loyaties?

BTW, it is my understanding that the USA paid for the resettlement of Soviet Jews in Israel in the eighties, not the USSR .

Katherine

[Sep 19, 2018] Russia does not have a fifth column in Israel, it is probably the other way round.

Sep 19, 2018 | thesaker.is

Occasional Poster on September 19, 2018 , · at 4:00 pm EST/EDT

1.3 million Russians in Israel, are Russian jews, and are likely identify primarily as jewish.

Their aims and concerns, are jewish ones. Their likely only concerns regarding Russia, are that Russia does not obstruct Israeli ambitions, and that the network of jewish influence in Russia does not diminish, but thrives. Their interest is for Russia to be another of Israel's golems, like the USA is.

I moot that true Russian interests, conflict with their own, and they will absolutely follow their own. Same as AIPAC in the USA, and equivalents everywhere else.

Their ancestral home country might be Russia, but I moot there is nothing Russian about them.

All my humble opinion. I stand to be corrected. Russia does not have a fifth column in Israel, it is the other way round.

[Sep 19, 2018] E>e are now faced with the imminent threat of either an Anglo/Zionist victory in Syria or WW3

Sep 19, 2018 | thesaker.is

Bob on September 19, 2018 , · at 3:31 pm EST/EDT

Look, I'm not a military expert, but I have followed the events in the Middle East fairly closely for over 30 years. I, and many others, have stated repeatedly that Russia's clearly demonstrated unwillingness to use its military forces to protect Syria from Western and US strikes can only lead to disaster.

The entire Russian policy in Syria has been confused and riddled with contradictions from the very beginning. The situation in 2015 was:
1. The Syrian government was on the verge of losing a war against jihadi forces.
2. Those jihadi forces were largely foreign and were organized, funded and directed by the
Anglo/zionists.
3. The Russians could not match the conventional forces that could be brought to bear in the region by the Anglo/zionists.
4. Any Russian intervention could only succeed if the Anglo/zionists were deterred from intervening directly by the presence of Russian forces and the fear of a wider war (that could go nuclear).

Now given those four facts, which I presume nobody seriously disagrees with, the Russian operation in Syria was always based upon maintaining the fear in the minds of the military planners in Tel Aviv and Washington that any direct interference with Russian forces in Syria would mean war with Russia. This was the most important single job of the Russian forces in Syria maintaining the deterrent capability vis-a-vis the Anglo/zionists.

How do you maintain deterrence? You do so by enforcing your red lines EVERY TIME they are challenged. Russian inability to clearly define their red lines in Syria and to enforce those red lines each and every time they were tested has led us to a point where the Russians no longer have any credibility in Syria.

My crystal ball says that within the next 30 days, not only will the US massively strike the SAA and the Assad government, but that they will impose a no fly zone over all of Syria to ground the Russian and Syrian air forces. What will the Russians do in response? They will have a choice between war and defeat Everything they have done to this point, indicates that they will do whatever they need to do to avoid a direct military confrontation with the Anglo/zionist forces. Imagine if you were a military planner in Tel Aviv or Washington, how could you convince anyone that there was any credible threat that Russia would go to war over Syria?

You couldn't and hence we are now faced with the imminent threat of either an Anglo/zionist victory in Syria or WW3.

Christian W on September 19, 2018 , · at 4:23 pm EST/EDT
The Anglo-Zionists are losing in Syria. Russia, Syria and Iran are winning. That is why the ZioNazis are desperate and moving in themselves, now that their proxies have been defeated. There is no way the ZioNazis can impose a no-fly zone over Syria. If they start shooting at Russian jets the answer will come in the form of nuclear armed missiles. Israel will be taken out in a matter of minutes and made uninhabitable as it has no strategic depth. It does not even take nuclear missiles to achieve the destruction of Israel. If I were Israeli I would not be best pleased with the insane Netanyahu, but Israel at this point seems quite psychotic.

The Russian forces have a standing order to defend themselves with the strongest means available to any attack. Israel managed to create a situation where the fog of war made things less clear but Israel still attacked Russia directly. It is in Israel's and NATO's interest to confuse things in Syria to keep Russia from pursuing it's strategies to the end. It's only Idlib left now, once the remaining Jihadi proxies have been blown out of their holes (a matter of a few months, much less if Turkey lends a hand) the turn will then come to the turncoat Kurds in the East and they will be dealt with just like the jihadis were dealt with.

This is the scenario that is giving Israel and NATO fits, but they cannot stop it without going to war with Russia. Israel cannot possibly survive such a war, so they want to pull in NATO to do the dirty work while Israel itself sits it out on the sidelines. It won't work of course.

Occasional Poster on September 19, 2018 , · at 4:25 pm EST/EDT
@ Bob,

I am one of the armchair warriors, but hell I don't know, I could be wrong, and I sincerely hope that I am.

That said, I do understand the 'wait and see' logic. My only concern with it, is that if the slow and steady strategy is superior to enforcing red lines, then the problem is that the enemy is not stupid.They in turn will see that either a greater provocation is needed, else they need to find a new weak spot to poke.

Zog wants the Russians to fail, and Assad replaced by their puppet, really badly. They are not going to sit back and think 'dammit, we lost, out-smarted by those pesky Russians.'

Again, I hope to be wrong. But the nasties in ZOG HQ are as devious, nasty, and fanatical as they come. If plan A fails, plans B, C and D are lined up.

Big picture, the Shia crescent needs Iraq fully on board, and the yanks out. Then Russia (and Iran) has an uninterrupted air corridor to the theatre, and that doesn't rely on the ever unreliable Turkey..

Zog sees this too. I'm not aware that anybody really focuses on this, but Iraq is really the key. The Sunnis won't like it, but ISIS was their gambit, and it failed. If Iraq becomes free of US control, and joins the Shia Crescent, we will hear Zog's screams all over the world.

That's worth waiting for.

[Sep 19, 2018] Open Thread Russian Plane Brought Down in Syria

Sep 19, 2018 | off-guardian.org

The questions raised: Who really did shoot down this plane? Was it an accident or did France and/or Israel attack? If France are attacking Russia/Syria what prompted this? What do they have to gain? Is it possible for Syria to "accidentally" bring down an allied plane? Don't they have IFFs? Are Russia publicly accepting a false narrative to avoid having to retaliate? Will Russia retaliate against Israel? They have claimed that right already. What will they expect to extract as a quid pro quo on this issue? How will the media report this? Will they call it a "near miss"? That's surely what it was. Do they even understand how close we're coming to global war, whenever a NATO country operates in Syria? How long can we rely on Russian common sense to avoid WWIII?


Admin says September 19, 2018

What do you think Putin should have done?

Your reply needs to acknowledge the following:

1) the neocon hardline and Israel are currently trying to manufacture an excuse for a massive attack on Syria, aimed at widening the war.

2) the Israeli action was aimed at provoking a military response from Russia/Syria that could be used as such an excuse.

3) a widened war would play into western hands and destroy Russia's current ascendancy

What action should Russia take that would punish Israel but avoid giving the neocon hardliners exactly what they wanted?

Admin says September 19, 2018
Try to remain calm.

I notice you don't advocate that Russia should have immediately retaliated militarily. All the things you do advocate (well, most) – quite rationally – would not have shown any results as yet, so we don't know they haven't been done, do we?

But, to repeat, you don't defeat a man who is trying to lure you into a fight by punching him in the face. Intelligence is underrated by the non-intelligent. Subtlety is unappreciated by the crass. The Russian govt's actions tend to be both subtle and intelligent – whether you approve of them or not, and so can go unappreciated by many on all sides of the debate.

As to ascendancy – Syria was intended to be a new Libya by now. That this has been avoided, that the various terrorists are in retreat, that the country remains largely functional, and all without direct confrontation between east and west (so far), is an achievement anyone with any intelligence should recognise, and which the Russia government has every right to be proud of.

Forgive me, but people have been saying variants of "if Putin doesn't DO SOMETHING HUGE right now he's going to burn" for at least the last four years, and they are still saying it, despite the fact he hasn't burned (and neither have we), and, if their sage advice had been followed, we might all be cinders on a dead and cindered planet right now.

ragheadthefiendlyterrorist says September 19, 2018
The only reason it hasn't come to that yet is that the ground was not prepared fully before. Russia is slowly being pushed back to the ropes, the average Western citizen is being conditioned to racially hate Russians (did you read Nikki Haley's comment today that Russians are culturally conditioned to lie and cheat?) and the consent is being steadily manufactured. As I said in my original comment, by showing "restraint" and not that he has teeth, Putin is encouraging his country's enemies. Personally, I don't give a damn about what he does about people he doesn't like, but he's not a private citizen; he is in control of Russia, for good or ill. Most of my Russian friends, all of the far left variety, despise him, incidentally, but that's neither here nor there. The simple fact is that if Russia is to avoid a big war it has to actively deter one, not act like someone attempting to disarm an armed drunk by logical words and sweet reason. That is not going to work.
Paul X says September 19, 2018
If the Russians got a cruise missile down the funnel of the French frigate Auvegne (assuming there is a funnel) what do you think NATO would do? Would they shrug and say it serves Macron right or would they take off the safety locks and blast Russia from every direction in order to protect their partner who had been so 'wrongly' attacked? Haven't they been waiting for the chance for years? Aren't they already loaded up expecting the 'chemical weapons' shout to go up this very week? It would be vey foolish of Russia to take the bait of these provocations and it makes for uneasy reading when Westerners, sitting comfortably in safety, complain that Russians aren't prepared to die for us in large enough numbers to keep them safe. You first guy!
Paul X says September 19, 2018
When provoked so blatantly you need to look to see what the guy is hiding behind his back. In this case the West had built up their forces for a full scale attack on Syria as soon as the White Helmets released their video of choking children filmed a week or so ago. Putin disappointed them by coming to an agreement with Turkey that means the jihadis are further isolated and pushed into possible conflict with radicals.

The time scales of the agreement are vague/unknown but it's unlikely we will see a Jihadi Caliphate set up under Turkish protection.

Like the Syrians it's the crazy foreign fighters that alarm the Turks, the Chinese especially of whom there are 6000 heavily armed in the South. Turkey is keen to see the extremists pushed South making it difficult for them to enter Turkey. Putin's reaction is far more sensible than firing the gun for a major conflict which Russia is most unlikely to win.

Russia is still on track to squeeze the jihadis into smaller and smaller areas where they might be eliminated. It might make liberals happy to see Russia sacrifice herself a la 1941 but it's not going to help anybody except their enemies.

You can't help thinking Putin knows exactly what he's doing.

Admin says September 19, 2018
There can never be a non-nuclear war between the US and Russia. Every strategist worth anything knows this. It's the belief – created by the PNAC neocons – that this isn't true that drives the hardcore nuts in Washington and London and elsewhere.

This is the problem. They are delusional and believe they can fight a limited war with Russia. Those who know they are wrong, and that any such war would go nuclear very very fast are stuck in a profound dilemma. – How to defend oneself and one's interests while avoiding the conflict the lunatics want, which will destroy life on earth?

Answers on a post card please for anyone who thinks they can do better than the current Russian govt is doing.

白矛 says September 19, 2018
It's a complex web.. one has to bear this in mind.. the inter-relationships.. the connections.. Putin for example has to tread the razor edge and fight with one hand tied behind his back due to the Zionist influence atop the Russian hierarchy .
Matt says September 19, 2018
S-200 uses the SAHR guidance system. The radar signal is fairly wide, and if multiple objects fall within the signal, the one with the largest cross-section will be targeted. The Russian IL is much larger than the American F-16. Larger missiles like the 200's 5V21 also tend to hit from above (they come down in a parabolic arc after the motors burned out). So if the F-16's stayed a little behind and below the IL they'd basically guarantee the IL get's killed.

As "Partisangirl" claims, but does not properly understand, Russia integrated Syrian AD into their network some time ago. The purpose of such a integration was to avoid similar accidents.

One problem: That was only for the newer stuff.

A Pantsir, for example, can be told where targets are and what to shoot at by a larger system (they work in a pyramid hierarchy). S-200s are older than h*ll though. It's basically a dumb system from the 60's. (even dumber than a BUK)
What it'll do is spot a target, fire the missile and then when the missile "thinks" it's in the right area (the kill box), it's seeker head goes active (it's a semi active seeker). It starts looking for radar 'reflections' and then homes in on the biggest one it can see. It doesn't actually know what it's looking at and doesn't care. Just goes for the shiniest thing it can detect.

My favourite part is how all these lies are held up as if they merit discussion and as if they deserve to be given equal treatment with what actually happened. It's like holding a "discussion" as to whether or not Aliens rule the Earth.

grandstand says September 19, 2018
I tend to agree with you, on the whole, Mulga, about issues to do with Israel, though perhaps not so stridently. But on this occasion I think Matt is honestly telling things how he sees it.

On the other hand, one should ask why Israel is arbitrarily attacking targets in a sovereign country that is not threatening it. Of course, the answer is that this is what Israel does with impunity – witness USS Liberty among many others. On this occasion, it appears, from what I have read, that Israel was targeting the delivery of Iranian S300 copies to Syria – that is weapons to defend from this kind of attack in future. In reality, far from attacking Israel, Syria has even done nothing about recovering territory lost to Israel in 1967, though in international law Israel – that Israel signed up to – it should be given back to Syria. A few days ago, Israel attacked Damascus airport during an international fair with many visitors and potential for massive loss of life. It seems clear that Israel is trying (probably with US approval) to provoke a response.

Putin always keeps his eye on the long term view but it is time for him to put a stop to this activity if he is to maintain credibility with his allies and his voters. This attack will serve to weaken Putin's hitherto Israel friendly stance unless he wants to lose support in Russia. Putin is the best friend Israel has in Russia. It seems that Russian military is saying that there will be a response – much stronger than Putin.

grandstand says September 19, 2018
On the other hand – re my previous comment, Matt, IAF was clearly using the Russian ELINT plane as cover. It is tantamount to using civilians as human shields. Though the crew were Russian military, they were not involved in the action, apparently, and Israel had agreed not to target Russian assets in Syria. One cannot absolve Israel on this and the Russian military know it. They will be looking to Putin to permit a response.
Jen says September 19, 2018
Then you surely would not object if Russia were to ask Israel to hand over the pilots involved so they can explain in a Russian military court or a similar setting their actions and the thinking and expectations that motivated them to hide their jets in the Ilyushin transport plane's radar shadow.
Yarkob says September 19, 2018
israel is breaking international law (again) its pilots, and their commanders and any FAO they use, are criminals. plain and simple
Guest Columnist says September 19, 2018
Yes, there is a large element of theatre at play in this conflict. What many people don't want to accept is that they have no way of knowing what the entire truth is. All the information about situations and events comes from partisan organizations with vested interests. Expecting the side one personally favours to present objective truths is wishful thinking at best, downright delusional at worst.

The post-truth era means everybody walks around believing they have 'figured out' the truth, no hard evidence required, but they can't all be right can they?

It's neoliberal individualism gone mad.

Harry Law says September 18, 2018
Not so long ago Netanyahu was pleading with Putin [successfully] not to supply the S300 anti aircraft system [defensive] to Syria, at the same time Israel was the first country to get a fleet of F35's [offensive] from the US. Putin defers far to much to the US/Israel, we now see the results. Incidentally how come Saudi Arabia can buy the S400 system, when they were one of the instigators of Syrian regime change. Russia's "partners" want Syria destroyed, the warmonger McCain always said the US should take on Syria and that Russia would 'do nothing', was he right?
Admin says September 18, 2018
Let's recall the realities here and not succumb to hysteria. One of the reasons these provocations are happening is that Russia is winning in Syria, militarily and politically. Loading...
Big B says September 18, 2018
What are the realities: we are not being told?

Harry has touched on an important point: that Russia and Israel are becoming closer and closer strategic Russophone partners. Russia was the first country in the world to recognise W Jerusalem as Israel's capital (before even Trump). There was only one foreign dignitary at the May 9th Victory Parade their growing economic, military and cultural ties (Customs Union negotiations and visa free travel for instance) cannot be ignored.

The IDF's 200 strikes in 18 months must lead to serious consideration of tacit Russian approval because they could be quite quickly stopped without it? But that would escalate the situation. Where does Iran stand in this, because VVP made quite clear to Netanyahu that Iran was Russia's principle strategic partner in the region. Is that set to change?

Netanyahu has met VVP what, three times this year, behind closed doors. What was said, and what agreements were made? It is also reputed that they have a direct one-to-one encrypted comms network (though I can't confirm it was activated). But that they are in regular contact is undoubted.

There is a lot more going on beneath the surface than first meets the eye. VVP's relations with Netanyahu blurs the boundaries and greys the narrative. The fact that VVP is saying it "looks accidental" doesn't ring true it looks anything other than accidental to me. Was there a communication breakdown as VVP is in Hungary?

I do not know, and based on what we have been told, neither does anyone else. The FS Auvergne fired missiles just as the Il-20 HQ went off screen. They weren't firing at the IDF, I wouldn't be too sure they were "window dressing" for them either. Whatever went on, we are being kept in the dark. Not precipitating WW3 is a good thing. Other than that, Russia's foreign policy and ME relations are a 3D chess game that we know little of the motivation behind: but I can infer that Russia's strategic needs are primary. At what point can that be labelled imperialist?

Frankly Speaking says September 18, 2018
"What are the realities: we are not being told?"

Are you expecting to be spoon fed? And by the biased BBC, Guardian, etc!

It's pretty clear that Assad has won with Putin's support. China is on side too as evidenced by recent military manoeuvres. What is happening now is the US, UK, France, Israel, Turkey, Saudi just saving face and been allowed the odd small success or two.

However, Israel royally fucked up last night and Netanyahu will lose a plane or three if he tries it again.

Big B says September 18, 2018
You didn't really read my comment: this "odd small success " has happened 200 times in the last 18 months with the downing of how many IDF planes 1? Russia providing S-300s, or S-400s, or upgrading the 1960's SAM 2s would secure Syrian airspace. But these supplies are not forthcoming. Because Israel will not allow them.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liberman-to-russian-media-israel-did-not-join-western-action-against-moscow/

The situation is a lot more complex: and no, I don't want to be spoonfed by the BBC. The Saker posits a "Zionist 5th Column" in Russia that VVP has to accommodate. You seem to want a simplistic ZioNATO v Russia narrative, all I am saying it is a lot more nuanced than that. And I didn't get that from the Graun!

Big B says September 19, 2018
200 IDF strikes in 18 months, that could be stopped by turning on their S-400s, would be an instance.. Israel has lobbied successfully to prevent Syria from securing its own airspace. The majority of these attacks are to prevent Assad acquiring what Haaretz terms "lethal weaponry" a euphemism for Iranian supplied air defences that could secure Syrian airspace. As could a Russian declared NFZ (though the IDF would just standoff over Lebanon or the Med, and not penetrate Syrian airspace). Or Russian supplied S-300s.

So my answer is yes and no. The Russophone alliance of Russia and Israel seems to be ascendant over Syrian sovereignty. Or it was, until Monday. There appears to have been a breakdown in the de-confliction agreement, or a deliberate misuse and provocation by Israel. The jury is out on that one for the moment. If the attacks are stopped, I would tend to agree with you.

There is the small matter of the international silence surrounding the FS Auvergne firing missiles concurrent with the downing of the Il-20 HQ. These either hit the Il-20 or Latakia. Has anyone considered the Il-20 WAS the target? That there was no accident, but a deliberate targeting? Did the IDF or French take out the Russian early warning system and electronic warfare capability to leave Latakia vulnerable? I don't know, and Rothschild Macron said no! It is worth considering though, I feel.

Integrated into the systems view of militaristic, imperialistic, and sub-imperialistic, and extractivist proliferation: it hardly matters who did what when. They are not giving us an insight into their collective insanity and power games, where the stakes are humanities very survivability. Russia only seemed to remember on Monday that the serial numbers on the MH-17 BUK, means it was made in 1986. What else have they forgotten? What else do they not know?

Humanity has no strategic allies within the global neoliberal ruling class. Arming the world is a "pro-conflict policy", wouldn't you agree? Where militaristic proliferation can't facilitate peace: the only possible de-confliction becomes system change? There are good and bad actors within the current globally hegemonic cultural system: VVP is possibly the best, so it would be unfair to heap the woes of an essentially evil system upon him especially in isolation. So it must fall to those outside the transnational globally integrated system to call out where this insanity will lead. That's you and me?

What I am suggesting is rather than the inevitably favourable comparison of VVP, and well, just about anyone else let's look at the bigger picture. International World Capitalism, as Guattari termed it, has faced us with the choice of three suicides. Without a radical transformation of the oppressed consciousness (a la Guattari, Deleuze, Freire, Bookchin, Naess, but better still the secular Buddha) there will soon enough come the day that does not dawn Monday night was a foreshadowing of that very day?

Admin says September 19, 2018
The idea a head of state can function as a moral paragon is naive of course. Putin pursues Russia's interests, not world peace and brotherhood. But at the same time we can't ignore the fact he does so while adhering to the requirements of international law far more than the west does. In that sense, he has some claim to respect from those who value ethical conduct. Whatever his motives may be this fact deserves to be stated and made clear.
manfromatlan says September 18, 2018
Ronald Reagan and the US were complicit in the downing of KAL Flight 007. Similar moves afoot again to build up military race between Russia and US and bog Russia in Syria https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1985/09/26/the-fate-of-ke007-an-exchange/
vexarb says September 18, 2018
BTL SyrPer, vot tak on September 18, 2018 · at 12:22 pm EST/EDT

Interesting take from an israeli.

Israel Unlikely to Fly Freely Over Syria After Il-20 Incident – Ex-Official

https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201809181068132500-israel-syria-il-20-incident-airspace/

"Israel is unlikely to freely use Syrian airspace in the wake of the crash of a Russian Il-20 military aircraft over the Mediterranean Sea, Yakov Kedmi, a former high-ranking Israeli intelligence official, told Sputnik.

"There was an agreement between Israel and Russia that the actions of Israel in Syria's airspace would not endanger lives of Russian troops. Israel breached this commitment What happens next will depend on the position of Israel. Most likely, Israel will no longer be able to enjoy the same freedom in the sky of Syria as it did before the incident," Kedmi said.

"Israel's attack in itself, regardless of the consequences, was an irresponsible step, because there is not a single facility on the territory of Syria that might have been used by Iran and whose destruction would have justified an attack on it, which could endanger the Russian troops," Kedmi said."

Mulga Mumblebrain says September 19, 2018
The idea that Israel would honour ANY 'agreement' made with anyone is quite mirth-inducing.
archie1954 says September 18, 2018
The US must be the worst nation on the face of the Earth. Everywhere it goes, death and destruction follow. To top it all off, the blatant hypocrisy is too much to handle. America is treacherous and duplicitous in the extreme. It has supported terrorists of all stripes in the Middle East and elsewhere for its own selfish geopolitical reasons. It is an entity not to be trusted, ever!
Cassandra says September 18, 2018
admin you might find some answers to your questions here:

http://www.voltairenet.org/article202998.html

Regarding (the long tradition of ) British-French-Israeli collusion

"Not only Russian and (allegedly) Israeli and French aircraft and missiles were in the air. Civilian radar also tracked British Royal Air Force aircraft, which, unusually, had switched on their transponders and gone into holding patterns – most likely to avoid being somehow involved in the exchange of fire over Latakia." (source: Haaretz)

we should remember Sykes-Picot and "Operation Revised" (the 1956 Suez-deception)

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ssfc0005/The%20Protocol%20of%20Sevres%201956%20Anatomy%20of%20a%20War%20Plot.html

"The documentary evidence does not leave any room for doubt that at Sèvres, during the three days in late October 1956, an elaborate war plot was hatched against Egypt by the representatives of France, Britain and Israel. The Protocol of Sèvres is the most conclusive piece of evidence for it lays out in precise detail and with a precise time-table how the joint war against Egypt was intended to proceed and shows foreknowledge of each other's intentions .

The central aim of the plot was the overthrow of Gamal Abdel Nasser. This aim is not explicitly stated in the protocol but it emerges clearly and unambiguously from all the records of the discussions surrounding it. Yet each of the three partners had a very different perspective on this war plot, and it was not at all clear how even the agreed aim was to be achieved.
The French were the most straight-forward, unwavering and unabashed advocates of military force. As far as they were concerned, Colonel Nasser supported the Algerian rebels and that, along with his nationalization of the Suez Canal Company, was enough to justify a war to overthrow him. For their part, the French did not need any further pretext for taking military action. It was the British, unwilling to incur Arab hostility by appearing as ally of Israel, who needed a pretext and Israel was able and willing to provide it but only at a price. Israel also required the elimination of Nasser's air force, for which task Britain alone had the heavy bomber bases sufficiently near at hand."

https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/USO/chp1_p2.html (Col.Fletcher Prouty's insights into the engineered "Suez Crisis")

MI6, the CIA the long history of covert ops in Syria

https://www.youtube.com/embed/511W2O-fPrY?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&autohide=2&showsearch=0&showinfo=1&iv_load_policy=1&wmode=transparent

John Gilberts says September 19, 2018
I was also struck by the Haaretz report that "Something strange was definitely in the air over Syria on Monday night with British and French forces reportedly present." I hope this open thread may bring more information on this alleged NATO involvement. I am beginning to think this incident may have rather more actors than we've been told. Loading...
grandstand says September 19, 2018
Yes – agreed. FUKUS ships have moved closer to the Syrian coast in the last few days, presumably in anticipation of an attack (chemical or otherwise) that they could justify a response to. The Russians have been doing a great job in the (non-Western) media of predicting potential chemical fake attacks and thereby defusing them. The one minute warning from Israel suggests the possibility (no more than that) that the Israelis saw the ELINT plane approaching the airfield and quickly decided to use it as cover for whatever reason.

As I've said in other posts, the Israelis have narrowed Putin's options. Of FUKUS +I they are the easiest to pick off.

A very different and is some ways attractive theory is presented here:

https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/full-analysis-russian-disinfo-campaign-blames-israel-for-il-20-plane-downing-yet-exonerates-france/

I am not totally convinced – Matt's view on the capability of the Syrian SAMs seems more convincing and it is not clear that Russian fighters could have scrambled in time, especially as the Israelis had agreed not to target Russian assets, but if true it perhaps is a clever – nay Machiavellian – way of opening up options for Putin vis-a-vis his Israeli/Russian Jewish oligarchs and hanging the Israelis out to dry.

Paul X says September 19, 2018
Is there any information about whether the Auvergne did or didn't fire missiles? The Syrians (and Russians?) said they had witnessed the firing of missiles which seemed to be aimed at the same government buildings as that being attacked by Israel which suggests collusion. Loading...
Admin says September 19, 2018
Apparently France is denying it
Philpot says September 18, 2018
The US and NATO's compliant poodles are clearly willing to risk WWIII as they think Russia will simply back down when they instigate open warfare and regime change in Syria. My own belief is that poor honest broker Russia has been left to decide the fate of world peace. Personally, for all our futures, I believe Russia must declare a no fly zone over Syria – anyone entering to bomb will be at mercy of S400. Otherwise this will continue and if the US gets Syria it will be Iran next and WWIII – that is, armageddon.
Gary Weglarz says September 18, 2018
The entire of the West has now become simply a huge collective criminal enterprise operating completely outside the bounds of international law and threatening to bring about armageddon in the process. Of course one would never know this by reading or watching Western media where our clueless psychopathic leaders are portrayed as gallantly fighting for "human rights" and "democracy" through "regime change" and endless slaughter.
vexarb says September 18, 2018
BTL SyrPer Auslander on September 18, 2018 · at 7:54 am EST/EDT

Israeli plane apparently passed just in front of the plane, SAA got a lock, Israeli doglegged left, missile lost lock and chose the biggest target ..our plane. Israel violated protocol, called one minute before the attack, not enough time for our bird to get out of the way. The french frigate was window dressing.

It was a setup.

europeannewright says September 18, 2018
Interesting that both Trump and Macron involved both stooges is the Israel military trying to trigger the third European War ? Loading...
Rigged Democracy says September 18, 2018
Here are a couple of quotes that show how far the system has been rigged/corrupted:

"one of the things we need to do is give young Jewish people the confidence to be proud of their identity – as British, Jewish and Zionist too .. There is no contradiction between these identities and we must never let anyone try to suggest that there should be ..
"You can also count on my commitment to Israel's security .. I am clear that we will always support Israel's right to defend itself."
– UK Prime Minister Theresa May, at the United Jewish Israel Appeal

"I've never seen a President -- I don't care who he is -- stand up to them (Israel). It just boggles the mind. They always get what they want. The Israelis know what is going on all the time. I got to the point where I wasn't writing anything down. If the American people understood what a grip these people have got on our government, they would rise up in arms. Our citizens certainly don't have any idea what goes on."
– U.S. Navy Admiral and former head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Thomas Moorer

Paul X says September 18, 2018
The BBC report no longer mentions the French frigate. Vanished!
0use4msm says September 18, 2018
The significance of direct military involvement by Israel and France is that the facade of a "civil war" (albeit by proxy) can no longer be maintained. The only thing that prevents it from being a regular war between nations is the omission of a declaration.
SO. says September 18, 2018

Is it possible for Syria to "accidentally" bring down an allied plane? Don't they have IFFs?

Yup, and kinda. It's perfectly possible to do it and IFF doesn't really work the way a lot of people think. (IFF transponder beacon works by transmitting a signal to the ground station or launcher).

If the ground station recognises the beacon it labels the aircraft as friendly and either denies launch permission or warns the operator beforehand.

However with a system like the S-200 that will not actually matter. The SA-5 (S-200) is an old system from the 60's which uses a semi active radar homing missile and how it works is quite simple.

When the ground system detects a target it illuminates the target with it's radar like a torch and launches the missile.

The missile then follows the radar reflection from the target until it gets close enough to detonate, goes bang, shoots plane down.

However the beam from the radar 'torch' can be quite wide (miles wide), F-16's are quite small, IL-20's quite big.. and the missile itself is pretty dumb.

As such by hiding in behind the larger aircraft the smaller aircraft can almost guarantee an incoming missile will prioritise the large aircraft reflection and kill that instead. It doesn't actually matter if the missile was launched against the smaller target in the first instance or if IFF came into play. The missile itself is too dumb to care. It just goes for the largest thing it can see.

BigB says September 18, 2018
Thanks for clearing that up: but it raises the question that the Il-20 was on a pre-planned flight path known in advance to both Russian and Syrian air traffic control (whom I believe are sitting next to each other?) Knowing what you have just posted (which I do not doubt) it can hardly be termed "accidental"?

I suspect the FS Auvergne fired its Aster missiles, but I'm not expecting a clarification of that. The situation is greyed by the burgeoning Russian-Israeli Russophone alliance. A simple narrative will not be forthcoming, I suspect.

SO. says September 18, 2018
The IL-20's been on station flying figure 8's on constant rotation for months so it's flight and landing path would be known to everyone with half assed radar or even functional eyeballs.
Paul X says September 18, 2018
Putin can't afford to get it wrong – for everybody's sake. His power is limited. He has done an excellent job in defeating the West in Syria but how could he react to missiles from the French frigate without triggering a massive NATO attack not just on Syria but Russia? In the current climate and the West's readiness it could happen in hours. He has always emphasised he puts Russian interests first – and those included eliminating thousands of Russian Jihadis before they returned home to create mayhem. He has never said he'll take on the World. So the French missiles were a mirage and the plane an accident? Well that's better than an even bigger war maybe?
vexarb says September 19, 2018
@BigB. Igor Bundy ABTL SyrPer supplies additonal info plus timeline, concludes that attack from only 4 planes is not lkely.

Russia not received data from #Israel on situation with IL-20 in #Syria – Peskov
https://sptnkne.ws/j9ce

-#Russia launched an S-400 missile/s against the Israeli jets which were dropping bombs 100Km away, so we're kept in the dark for now.

-#Russia responded immediately to the attack before the il-20M was lost Because the S-200 missiles were launched 20 min after the first wave.

-The attack lasted about 50 min, so only 4 F-16 doing the bombing is unlikely

Paul X says September 18, 2018
If the French and Israeli's attacked at the same time then they must have liased with each other. Or conspired is another way of putting it. Shades of 1956? But nowadays there wouldn't be the slightest outrage at such a collusion; it's oar for the course. And where is the missing partner, the UK? "No longer up to it" the French would say. "Too busy" say the Brits. NB which bit of Syria are the French after this time? Or do they see it descending into the chaos of a Libya, their last successful destabilisation.
Jo says September 18, 2018
Note Russian and IDF planes in direct line from s-200 being fired ..with French frigate ..looks like deliberate coordination to provide cover for each .but if frigate attacked then IDF planes available to directly attack Bashir in Damascus .and frigate to provide a source of provocation for excuse for Nato forces to launch their massive attack they desparately wish to do .especially as Putin agreed no military attack in Idlib ..and Russian MoD presentation yesterday it was a Ukraine BUK .in fact it is tempting to say Nato did this to get back at Russian MoD and punish them for this and expose in any way Russia's belief in trust and agreements and hotlines as a laughing stock ..and they have succeeded .a Russian plane shot down by an outdated Russian missile launched by Syria and Russia failing to supply s-300 but Turkey and everyone else can have s-400 which might ? have not ended up like this.
And did not Russia promise to deal with the "launch source" of any more missiles against Syria since the previous lot? Surely their are Russians in Latakia
Paul X says September 18, 2018
But you seem to be expecting or encouraging Russia to take on the World when in fact it's resources are limited
Jo says September 19, 2018
The elephant in the room is Iran .no responses from them yet even though Israel uses excuses to say it is defending itself from them and continues to attack what tjey call Iranian assets or anything they might vaguely claim have any connections to Iran ..does Iran follow Putins example to keep calm and carry on .thinking their"partnership" is being put to the test as of course it is in order to provoke it to invite a response by usa and associates .does it say to Putin enough is enough we are going to do our thing as you have said Russia is only in Syria to protect its own interests so cannot we do the same ..what options covert or overt does Iran have one wonders ..
David Macilwain says September 18, 2018
One question you didn't ask is whether this act, which appears to be an Israeli provocation assisted by the French, is related to the Sochi talks/agreement? Seems that supporters of the Syrian Opposition, of which France is right behind Turkey, might not like the agreement, partly because it stalls the plans for a "Syrian gas attack" by removing the pretext.
However I think the wider question is why and how has France been involved in this, described on SBS as "Israeli and French forces conducting aerial attacks on Syrian State assets"? Israel is a law unto itself, but France's intervention without any pretext whatsoever is a blatant war crime and escalation. The whole thing looks like a provocation, and one wonders when Russia will break. If Putin was unhappy having to make a peace agreement with the psycho Erdogan, he will be more unhappy now.
Paul X says September 18, 2018
If Russia was 'obliged' to retaliate to Israeli or French attacks its inherent weaknesses would be exposed. It remains a relatively poor country and Putin must be well aware it can't take on the US, Israel, the KSA and the other Gulf Emirs as well as France and the UK. It's done a fantastic job saving Syria but it can't take on The Rest of the World. If it has accepted Syrian missile defences brought it down that may well be the way out of a bigger war – this time.
manfromatlan says September 18, 2018
Putin's main interest is preserving Russian interests. Here, turning the other cheek likely is the best course. Loading...
writerroddis says September 18, 2018
I agree, Paul X. These are not only perilous waters, but untested to boot. In fact not one of the military powers you cite has had its strength tested against a non third world adversary. I know there are infantile tendencies crying "bring it on!" – as though speaking of a long awaited prize fight involving their heavyweight boxer of choice – but saner voices can only express alarm and profound dismay at what Western rulers seem bent on dragging us into. I say enough of this macho nonsense about who would prevail. I do take some comfort in the possibility – https://www.unz.com/tsaker/book-review-losing-military-supremacy-the-myopia-of-american-strategic-planning-by-andrei-martyanov/- that US military power is overstated, but it is comfort of the bleakest possible kind. Loading...
archie1954 says September 18, 2018
The point is this, Russia can take on the whole World if it had to, but it would be a pyrrhic victory, because to do so would require nuclear weapons which no nation could survive. However, Russia has many allies, the largest of which is China, so it probably would only be taking on one major opponent, the US and a few of its erstwhile allies (France, Britain etc.), not by any stretch of the imagination, the whole World!
Paul X says September 18, 2018
China is even weaker than Russia and not long ago said it was 10 years behind the US in military terms and it's hard to see they'd welcome a bit of sacrifice to pull Putin's chestnuts out of the fire. That Alliance is for the future. Right now a full blooded NATO response would be quite enough. Many in America would be delighted if Russia used a nuke; total annihaltion of Russia would follow, something they've been dying to do for 75 years. And of course they might go for the First Strike.

[Sep 19, 2018] You probably can call shooting down IL-20 a NATO attack

Sep 19, 2018 | thesaker.is

Littlejohn on September 19, 2018 , · at 6:02 pm EST/EDT

I have to agree up to a point that this attack was a "full test of the EW capabilties of the western & Israel armies". This was not just an Israeli attack. Israel just supplied four attack jets. The French were (as Russia observed) firing missiles. British aircraft were high overhead providing surveillance and attack data. U.S. surveillance aircraft similar to the IL-20 are more or less full-time orbiting off the Lebanon/Syria coasts gathering data, probing electronic systems and providing aerial data link relays for the planes and ships below. We should all stop calling this an "Israeli attack". It was basically a NATO attack on Syria.

It's evident that the Russian and Syrian forces were not prepared for such a combined attack as this.

NATO "won" overwhelmingly.

And this was just a "warmup" for the next, bigger attack to come. Russia must up it's game drastically or it's going to face a crushing defeat in the next attack.

[Sep 19, 2018] "Israeli military delegation led by air force commander to travel to Moscow to share information on Il-20 plane crash.

Sep 19, 2018 | thesaker.is

JJ on September 19, 2018 , · at 4:48 pm EST/EDT

"Israeli military delegation led by air force commander to travel to Moscow to share information on Il-20 plane crash.

The Israeli military delegation led by Air Force Commander Maj. Gen. Amikam Norkin will travel to Moscow on September 20 with information about the crash of a Russian Il-20 reconnaissance aircraft off the Syrian coast that killed 15 military personnel, the IDF press service said Wednesday."

Will be interesting to see how or maybe if it correlates with Russian intelligence?

[Sep 19, 2018] on September 19, 2018 at 3:31 pm EST/EDT

Sep 19, 2018 | thesaker.is

The entire Russian policy in Syria has been confused and riddled with contradictions from the very beginning. The situation in 2015 was:
1. The Syrian government was on the verge of losing a war against jihadi forces.
2. Those jihadi forces were largely foreign and were organized, funded and directed by the
Anglo/zionists.
3. The Russians could not match the conventional forces that could be brought to bear in the region by
the Anglo/zionists.
4. Any Russian intervention could only succeed if the Anglo/zionists were deterred from intervening
directly by the presence of Russian forces and the fear of a wider war (that could go nuclear).

Now given those four facts, which I presume nobody seriously disagrees with, the Russian operation in Syria was always based upon maintaining the fear in the minds of the military planners in Tel Aviv and Washington that any direct interference with Russian forces in Syria would mean war with Russia. This was the most important single job of the Russian forces in Syria maintaining the deterrent capability vis-a-vis the Anglo/zionists.

How do you maintain deterrence? You do so by enforcing your red lines EVERY TIME they are challenged. Russian inability to clearly define their red lines in Syria and to enforce those red lines each and every time they were tested has led us to a point where the Russians no longer have any credibility in Syria.

My crystal ball says that within the next 30 days, not only will the US massively strike the SAA and the Assad government, but that they will impose a no fly zone over all of Syria to ground the Russian and Syrian air forces. What will the Russians do in response? They will have a choice between war and defeat Everything they have done to this point, indicates that they will do whatever they need to do to avoid a direct military confrontation with the Anglo/zionist forces. Imagine if you were a military planner in Tel Aviv or Washington, how could you convince anyone that there was any credible threat that Russia would go to war over Syria? You couldn't and hence we are now faced with the imminent threat of either an Anglo/zionist victory in Syria or WW3. Reply

Christian W on September 19, 2018 , · at 4:23 pm EST/EDT

The Anglo-Zionists are losing in Syria. Russia, Syria and Iran are winning. That is why the ZioNazis are desperate and moving in themselves, now that their proxies have been defeated. There is no way the ZioNazis can impose a no-fly zone over Syria. If they start shooting at Russian jets the answer will come in the form of nuclear armed missiles. Israel will be taken out in a matter of minutes and made uninhabitable as it has no strategic depth. It does not even take nuclear missiles to achieve the destruction of Israel. If I were Israeli I would not be best pleased with the insane Netanyahu, but Israel at this point seems quite psychotic.

The Russian forces have a standing order to defend themselves with the strongest means available to any attack. Israel managed to create a situation where the fog of war made things less clear but Israel still attacked Russia directly. It is in Israel's and NATO's interest to confuse things in Syria to keep Russia from pursuing it's strategies to the end. It's only Idlib left now, once the remaining Jihadi proxies have been blown out of their holes (a matter of a few months, much less if Turkey lends a hand) the turn will then come to the turncoat Kurds in the East and they will be dealt with just like the jihadis were dealt with.

This is the scenario that is giving Israel and NATO fits, but they cannot stop it without going to war with Russia. Israel cannot possibly survive such a war, so they want to pull in NATO to do the dirty work while Israel itself sits it out on the sidelines. It won't work of course.

Occasional Poster on September 19, 2018 , · at 4:25 pm EST/EDT
@ Bob,

I am one of the armchair warriors, but hell I don't know, I could be wrong, and I sincerely hope that I am.

That said, I do understand the 'wait and see' logic. My only concern with it, is that if the slow and steady strategy is superior to enforcing red lines, then the problem is that the enemy is not stupid.They in turn will see that either a greater provocation is needed, else they need to find a new weak spot to poke.

Zog wants the Russians to fail, and Assad replaced by their puppet, really badly. They are not going to sit back and think 'dammit, we lost, out-smarted by those pesky Russians.'

Again, I hope to be wrong. But the nasties in ZOG HQ are as devious, nasty, and fanatical as they come. If plan A fails, plans B, C and D are lined up.

Big picture, the Shia crescent needs Iraq fully on board, and the yanks out. Then Russia (and Iran) has an uninterrupted air corridor to the theatre, and that doesn't rely on the ever unreliable Turkey..

Zog sees this too. I'm not aware that anybody really focuses on this, but Iraq is really the key. The Sunnis won't like it, but ISIS was their gambit, and it failed. If Iraq becomes free of US control, and joins the Shia Crescent, we will hear Zog's screams all over the world.

That's worth waiting for.

[Sep 19, 2018] Russia options are limited

Sep 19, 2018 | thesaker.is

Woogs on September 19, 2018 , · at 1:39 pm EST/EDT

Which is why the provocations won't stop. Honestly, I don't see how Putin can think he can shrug them off and continue with the job at hand in Syria. He will try but Zion will continue to double-down.

I believe the West has seen enough of their schemes foiled by Putin and his playing the long game. The strategy now is to take the long game from him. The advantage in this goes to the West as they can be as provocative as they want while Russia has to be careful not to be seen as an aggressor lest it wreck Nord Stream, Turk Stream and the thaw in relations with Germany.

Putin has sounded conciliatory, maybe even weak in some eyes. He did, however, note that Russia's attitude towards this incident is expressed in the MoD statement, which is noticeably less conciliatory.

Perhaps that, along with some concrete actions (I favor a limited no-fly zone), will deter outside interference while the essential work at Idlib can continue. We can only hope.

[Sep 19, 2018] It is a promise or threat being honored. For months we have we have been hearing high ranking American officials openly advocating that their goal in Syria was to make as many as possible Russian military return home in body bags

Sep 19, 2018 | thesaker.is

Stanley Laham on September 19, 2018 , · at 5:24 pm EST/EDT

May I remind you Saker that this incident was not just a provocation. It is a promise or threat being honored. For months we have we have been hearing high ranking American officials openly advocating that their goal in Syria was to make as many as possible Russian military return home in body bags. From Senators to directors of intelligence have unabashedly and unapologetically said so openly on American TVs. And they are doing it whenever possible.
So the question for Mr. Putin is whether he's gonna let them continue with impunity. I don't know how old most commentators on this site are, but for those who remember the denouement of the Vietnam war you will remember that the only war the US ever lost was when the American people had enough of hundreds of their soldiers returning home every week in body bags.
Kampfbeobachter on September 19, 2018 , · at 6:49 pm EST/EDT
remember the Tu 20 was used a RADAR shield for the 4 Israeli F-16. These are obviously aircraft and operate from an Israeli military base.The Russians know the geographical coordinates of these bases to the accuracy of a few meters. The Russian SSBM can stay in the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea Flotilla can repeat their Deir ez Zoor feat again testing the Iron Dome an Davids Sling in the process.
This potential threat will cause the Israeli military planers some sleepless nights.
I have read that the fire works capabilities of Hezbollah have somewhat improved in recent years. The possible components of a "no fly zone" over Israel and western Syria. Not that it will happen but making the protection racket in Washington foam at their Snouts is worth something too. IMHO
bored muslim on September 19, 2018 , · at 3:49 pm EST/EDT
Lets not forget China has people (Special Forces, Logistics people, medics etc) on the ground in Syria. Some brigades of the special forces are embedded with the Syrian Arab Armies Tiger Division and 4th Armored Division. The spearheads of most campaigns.

China has major plans foe the Levant, as far as connectivity with the OBR Silk Roads. They already have plans to rebuild Syria.

With cheap Chinese weapons, and a large volume of such, the Arabs, Assyrians of Syria will achieve their ultimate victory. The same applies to Iraq, where the U.S. , British and French position looks more and more precarious.

By 2030, the U.S., Britain and France will have been expelled from the MENA/Central Asian regions, only to have China fill the vacuum. Russia or not, China is coming, its rising fast.

­
Rob from Canada on September 19, 2018 , · at 4:34 pm EST/EDT
I agree with you 100% that there is no hope for the Western globalist elite. That's because they're incompetent, psychopathic, loser scum who are only a few bricks short of a load and their ponzi scam is only a few moves from mate.

https://www.traditionalright.com/the-deep-state-speaks/

cstahnke on September 19, 2018 , · at 6:59 pm EST/EDT
I wouldn't say that at all. They are still in positions of power with enormous economic and military sources. They are in decline but not that far down the road. Russia won't act strongly because the US/NATO/Israel/Saudi alliance is waaaaay more powerful and still very united in the Imperial project. Only a very tight China-Russia-Iran alliance would cause the Empire to hesitate to play their current game of continual micro-aggressions against Russia/Syria/Iran. Putin will not respond because he does not have as close an alliance with the Chinese as the US has with their "allies (vassals)." Washington can no longer dictate terms in world affairs but is more influential than Russia/China/Iran and any other minor players.
B.F. on September 19, 2018 , · at 2:25 pm EST/EDT
Kfeto
You need to do your homework before posting comments. Erdogan had nothing to do with with the shooting of that Russian SU-24. This was done behind his back, with pro-US elements in Turkey hoping to create a rift between Russia and Turkey. It was a provocation. The pilot of that Turkish F-16 was a Turk of Albanian origin, who was subsequently placed under arrest. When the US instigated that coup d'etat against Erdogan, it was the Russians who both warned him and saved his life, as his plane was targeted by Turkish F-16's flown by conspirators, who backed off, having Russian Sukhois behind them and Russian missiles in Syria pointing at them.

The shooting of that Russian reconnaissance plane in Syria was another provocation, Israel hoping to provoke Putin to retaliate and starting a mass war in Syria, bearing in mind that NATO brought additional ships to the Syrian coast. It did not work, as Putin stayed cool. However, Russian and Syrian AA missile systems have now become integrated. When it comes to this latest provocation, it could have been greater than it appeared. Commentators have pointed to that French frigate firing a missile. What kind of missile was that ? An AA missile, or a cruise missile ? Did the French shoot that Russian plane down ? If so, then we were facing a very real threat of wider war, because had the Russians retaliated, then NATO would have had an excuse to attack Syria, now that it's little false flag plan has been exposed, another chemical "attack" by Assad, as if Assad was foolish enough to do such a thing.

The point is that Putin does not fall for provocations. He has proved it again.

bored muslim on September 19, 2018 , · at 3:38 pm EST/EDT
I concur. Israel is a rogue state, and this was a provocation.

A firm response is required. The world is watching. Anything short of a firm response would negate Vostok 2018.

Does Putin stand with, and behind his own Minister of Defense, who layed the blame firmly on Israel.

Russia needs to secure Syrian and Lebanese airspace to Israeli provocations. AS a starting point. And Russia should make a lot of noise at the U.N., giving them a headache there, as well as points against the U.S..

Israeli arrogance should not be let go by superpower Russia.

[Sep 19, 2018] NATO ships are still off the Syrian coast. Why ? For what purpose ? Just keeping them at sea must cost millions of dollars. Are they waiting for something ?

Sep 19, 2018 | thesaker.is

B.F. on September 19, 2018 , · at 3:19 pm EST/EDT

amarynth
You are correct. I am wondering what really happened. Officially that Russian plane was mistakenly shot down by Syrians, who were targeting Israeli F-16's that were hiding behind the Russian plane. Both the Syrian radar operators and their Russian advisors must have known about that Russian reconnaissance plane, making such a mistake improbable, but not impossible. Then we have reports of that French frigate firing a missile. What kind of missile was that ? An AA missile, or a cruise missile ? No additional data has been provided. I wonder why.

NATO ships are still off the Syrian coast. Why ? For what purpose ? Just keeping them at sea must cost millions of dollars. Are they waiting for something ?

That false flag chemical "attack" which the US planned, hoping to frame Assad, has been exposed. Putin and Erdogan make a deal on Idlib. After that we have that Israeli attack, with the French giving a helping hand. Was NATO provoking Putin to make a retaliatory attack, either against Israel or against that French frigate ? Time will tell. However, as The Saker has stated, Russians have patience.

Stanley on September 19, 2018 , · at 5:48 pm EST/EDT
Patience is not always a virtue. Stalin paid dearly for his patience with Hitler even though his plans for Lebensraum and expansion eastward were not hidden. Careful Mr. Putin that you not pay dearly for your patience with the American Empire when it's plan "Project for a New American Century" has been clearly spelled out.
Veritas on September 19, 2018 , · at 3:32 pm EST/EDT
Yes Saker as you say let's wait and see what the Russian response will be.

Over the years – this always is the knee jerk reaction of the armchair warriors and anti-Putin/Russia trolls – whenever Russia is attacked in Syria or elsewhere. Some still don't learn that Russia is slow to saddle and quick to ride. The MOD statements have already set down who is to blame and a reply to this disgusting provocation will be answered in their own way and in their own time. Putin also agreed with the MOD statements and hinted himself to watch this space.

"Also, speaking of Syria: has anybody noticed that the agreement between Turkey and Russia has removed any justification for a US attack on Syria and that the Israelis have organized their latest little bloody stunt right after this deal was announced?"

This was a very important point, I also noted. I also read that the II-20 plane was returning from reconnaissance over Idlib and was just coming into land .take from that what you will ..

[Sep 19, 2018] Russia accused Israel earlier of a hostile provocation in striking the Syrian port city of Latakia, which led to the downing of a Russian military plane with 15 servicemen on board

Notable quotes:
"... Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu informed his Israeli counterpart, Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman, that Moscow holds Israel wholly to blame for the shooting down of a Russian military plane near Syria. ..."
"... The Russian Defense Ministry said a recovery operation in the Mediterranean Sea is underway and that it has already located the wreckage in the sea and has retrieved some bodies and some fragments of the plane. ..."
"... "At the same time Russian air control radar systems detected rocket launches from the French frigate Auvergne which was located in that region." ..."
Sep 19, 2018 | www.haaretz.com

Haaretz

Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Tuesday that Israel was not responsible for the downing of a Russian military aircraft during a strike on Syria Monday night. "It looks like a chain of tragic circumstances, because the Israeli plane didn't shoot down our jet," he said.

Putin's comments were a shift in tone after Russia accused Israel earlier of a "hostile provocation" in striking the Syrian port city of Latakia, which led to the downing of a Russian military plane with 15 servicemen on board.

When asked about comparisons to Turkey's downing of a Russian aircraft in 2015, Putin said: "This is a different situation. The Turkish fighter jet knowingly downed our plane."

The Russian president noted that the Defense Ministry's statement, vowing a retaliatory response, was "fully coordinated" with him. "The retaliatory measures will be directed above all to boosting the security of military men and installations in Syria," he said. "These will be measures everyone will see."

Infographic of Monday night's alleged attack and incident

Infographic of Monday night's alleged attack and incident Russian Defense Ministry

In the call with Putin, Netanyahu stressed the importance of continuing the security coordination with Russia, which he said has saved many lives on both sides over the past three years. He offered to send Russia all necessary details in order to investigate the incident, including dispatching the Israel Air Force chief to Moscow.

Shortly later, the Kremlin said Putin told Netanyahu that agreements reached between Russia and Israel regarding the prevention of dangerous incidents "were not observed." The statement added that Putin asked Netanyahu to avoid such situations in the future.

The Kremlin's statement came after Russia's Foreign Ministry said Moscow told Israel it will take all necessary measures to protect its military personnel in Syria.

U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo also responded to the downing of the aircraft, expressing sorrow for the deaths of Russian aircrew members. Pompeo said that the incident "reminds us of the need to find permanent, peaceful and political resolutions to the many overlapping conflicts in the region." He added that the incident brings to light "the danger of tragic miscalculations in Syria's crowded theater of operations."

Pompeo did not mention Israel in his statement, but he did say that the downing of the aircraft "underlines the urgent need to resolve the Syrian conflict and to end Iran's provocative transit of dangerous weapon systems through Syria, which are a threat to the region."

'Irresponsible actions'

Earlier on Tuesday, Russia's Defense Ministry accused Israeli military planes of creating a "dangerous" situation in Latakia, near where the aircraft was downed by Syrian air defense systems, as it claimed Israel warned Moscow about the planned operation one minute beforehand, adding that it was not enough time to get the the plane to safety.

The Defense Ministry said 15 Russian military service people died because of Israel's "irresponsible actions," adding that it reserves the right to take appropriate measures after Israel's hostile actions.

According to the ministry, the Israeli F-16 jets carrying out the airstrikes used the Russian plane as a cover to allow them to approach their targets on the ground without being hit by Syrian anti-aircraft fire.

"Hiding behind the Russian aircraft, the Israeli pilots put it in the line of fire of Syrian anti-aircraft systems. As a result the Il-20 ... was shot down by the (Syrian) S-200 missile system," Konashenkov said.

He said the Israeli pilots "could not have failed to see the Russian aircraft, as it was coming in to land from a height of 5 km (three miles). Nevertheless, they deliberately carried out this provocation," Konashenkov said.

Israeli army spokesperson Brig. Gen. Ronen Manelis said in a statement that Israel "expresses sorrow for the death of the aircrew members of the Russian plane that was downed tonight due to Syrian anti-aircraft fire," adding that Israel holds the Assad regime fully responsible for the incident.

"Israel also holds Iran and the Hezbollah terror organization" for the event, said the statement. "Overnight, Israel Defense Forces fighter jets targeted a facility from which systems to manufacture accurate and lethal weapons were about to be transferred on behalf of Iran to Hezbollah in Lebanon."

Manelis said Israel and Russia have a deconfliction system that has proven itself effective many times in recent years, and that "this system was in use tonight as well."

An initial inquiry by IDF top brass and the prime minister's bureau, Manelis said, showed that extensive and inaccurate anti-aircraft fire by Syrian forces downed the Il-20.

"When the Syrian Army launched the missiles that hit the Russian plane, IAF jets were already within Israeli airspace," said the statement, adding the Ilyushin was not present in the area of the operation during the Israeli airstrike.

It also said Syrian anti-aircraft batteries fired indiscriminately, "and from what we understand, did not bother to ensure that no Russian planes were in the air."

The statement concluded by saying Israel will share all the relevant information with the Russian government as to confirm the facts of the inquiry. An Israeli political official later echoed these comments as well, adding that Putin and Netanyahu are expected to speak soon.

Israeli Ambassador to Russia Gary Koren was summoned to the Russian Foreign Ministry following the incident, according to Russian media, though the Israeli Foreign Ministry declined to comment.

Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu informed his Israeli counterpart, Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman, that Moscow holds Israel wholly to blame for the shooting down of a Russian military plane near Syria.

The Kremlin was extremely concerned by the incident and Putin expressed his condolences for those who were killed, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told reporters.

The Russian Defense Ministry said a recovery operation in the Mediterranean Sea is underway and that it has already located the wreckage in the sea and has retrieved some bodies and some fragments of the plane.

A U.S. official earlier said Washington believed the aircraft, which is an Il-20 turbo-prop plane used for electronic reconnaissance, was inadvertently shot down by anti-aircraft artillery operated by Moscow's ally, the Syrian government.

Around the time the plane disappeared, the Syrian coastal city of Latakia, near a Russian airbase to which the Il-20 was returning, came under attack from "enemy missiles" and missile defence batteries responded, Syrian state media reported.

The defense ministry in Moscow said the aircraft was returning to the Russian-run Hmeymim airbase in Latakia province when, at about 11 P.M. Moscow time (20:00 GMT), it disappeared from radar screens.

The plane was over the Mediterranean Sea about 35 km (20 miles) from the Syrian coastline, Russia's TASS news agency quoted the ministry as saying in a statement.

"The trace of the Il-20 on flight control radars disappeared during an attack by four Israeli F-16 jets on Syrian facilities in Latakia province," the statement was quoted as saying.

"At the same time Russian air control radar systems detected rocket launches from the French frigate Auvergne which was located in that region."

The fate of the 14 people on board the missing plane is unknown, and a rescue operation has been organized out of the Hmeymim base, the ministry said.

The Israeli military had no reaction, saying it does not comment on "foreign reports." French military spokesman Colonel Patrik Steiger told Reuters. "We deny any involvement."

A series of unusual airstrikes on Syria were attributed to Israel on Monday night. The official SANA news agency reported that ten people were injured in the attack, eight of whom were shortly discharged after being admitted to a nearby hospital.

According to Syrian media, missiles were fired toward military targets close to three large cities in the north of Syria: Lattakia, Homs and Hama.

In recent weeks there has been a significant uptick in the amount of reports attributing attacks to Israel. Previous attacks, according to foreign media, mostly targeted the area of the Damascus International Airport .

[Sep 19, 2018] Sergei Shoigu stated that the blame for the downed Russian aircraft and the death of the crew lies entirely on the Israeli side

Sep 19, 2018 | iz.ru

According to several sources of "Izvestia" familiar with the situation, despite the bad weather, on that day (thunderstorm, clouds, light rain, air temperature was 21 degrees) Israeli fighters had to visually observe the Il-20. At that time, the visibility was about 6 thousand meters, and the plane came to land with the lights on.

-- It is preliminary possible to say that the Israeli air force attacked a group on a single target, -- said the former commander of the 4th air army, air force and air defense Lieutenant-General Valery Gorbenko. - Went in a dense system at a distance of about 30-100 m from each other. Apparently, they approached the Il-20 at a distance of about 300-400 m and lined up in almost one line with respect to the shooting C-200. After the launches, the fighters performed an anti-missile maneuver with maximum overloads. The missile lost its target and re-aimed at our plane.

-- Group F-16 flew as close to the Russian aircraft, -- said the expert. - On the radar of air defense systems, all aircraft merged into one major goal. When the Syrian S-200 opened fire, the fighters received a warning about the missile attack and crumbled, and on the line of fire there was only less maneuverable and more noticeable Il-20.

The Russian Navy started search and rescue operation

As told "Izvestia" several informed sources in the Russian military Department, the first to the crash site Il-20 arrived boat "Raptor" with combat swimmers PDSS. These forces are part of the naval base in Tartus and are engaged in its protection against possible sabotage and terrorist acts. Earlier, the soldiers of the PDSS and the crews of the Raptors were also the first to find the wreckage of the su-30CM Syrian aerospace forces, which crashed in may this year.

[Sep 19, 2018] Sic Semper Tyrannis

Notable quotes:
"... Times of Israel ..."
"... Times of Israel ..."
Sep 19, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

All of the facts have yet to be known but the Russian Defense Ministry has little doubt: the Israelis created the conditions by which Syrian air defenses took down a Russian Il-20 electronic intelligence aircraft in the midst of an Israeli air strike on a Syrian Arab Army facility in Latakia between 10 PM and 11 PM local time Monday night.

Russian Defense Ministry spokesman Igor Konashenkov told reporters, this morning, that four Israeli F-16's used the Il-20 as cover to protect themselves from Syrian air defenses. "By using the Russian plane as a cover the Israeli air pilots made it vulnerable to Syrian air defense fire. As a result, the Ilyushin-20, its reflective surface being far greater than that of F-16, was downed by a missile launched with the S-200 system," Konashenkov said. The Israeli planes deliberately created a dangerous situation for surface ships and aircraft in that area, he stated. "The bombing raid was near the French frigate The Auvergne and in close proximity to the Ilyushin-20 plane of Russia's Aerospace Force that was about to land," Konashenkov said. The Russians had initially said that they had detected missiles fired from the Auvergne, but by daybreak had stopped saying that, and the French have denied involvement.

After Konashenkov's press briefing Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu issued a very strong statement vowing a Russian response. "We have informed today our Israeli colleagues, and I have also informed personally the Israeli Defense Minister [Avigdor Lieberman], that such actions will not be left unanswered by us," Shoigu said . "Our reconnaissance airplane Il-20 with 15 crew members on board" which had been collecting intelligence on jihadi drone operations in Idlib, "was in the strike zone, strictly speaking between Israel's aircraft - four F-16 planes - and Syrian territory," he said. "The Israeli side didn't issue a notification or, to be more precise, they warned us a minute before conducting the strike," he said. "They told us they were about to attack facilities on the Syrian territory, and they did it." Putin later said during a joint press conference with the prime minister of Hungary that he signed off on Shoigu's statement. "No doubt we should seriously look into this," he said .

The IDF then took the unusual step of issuing a statement, at mid-day, admitting that they were responsible for the air strike and expressing sorrow for the loss of the 15 crew members aboard the Il-20. However, they blamed Damascus, Hezbollah and Iran for the shoot down, reports the Times of Israel . According to the IDF, the target of the Monday night strike was a Syrian military facility that manufactured "accurate and lethal weapons," which were "about to be transferred, on behalf of Iran, to Hezbollah in Lebanon." The military said its initial investigation found that "the Syrian anti-air batteries fired indiscriminately and, from what we understand, did not bother to ensure that no Russian planes were in the air." the Russians will know whether or not any of this is true by their own radar data and their close working relationship with the Syrian air defense units.

In any case, it doesn't appear that Vladimir Putin was convinced b y the Israeli explanation though he did make a point, during his press conference, of differentiating this incident from the shoot down of a Russian Su-24 bomber by Turkish F-16's in November of 2016. According to the Kremlin readout of a phone conversation that Putin had with Netanyahu the Israeli prime minister promised to provide detailed information on the activities of the Israeli Air Force over Syrian territory on that day, which will be delivered soon to Moscow by the Israeli Air Force commander. Putin, in turn, "noted that operations of this nature by the Israeli Air Force are in violation of Syria's sovereignty. In this particular case, Russian-Israeli agreements on preventing dangerous incidents had not been observed either, and that resulted in the Russian aircraft coming under Syrian air defence fire. The Russian President called on the Israeli side to prevent such incidents in the future."

Israeli commentary on this incident takes note that the deaths of Russian service members in the context of an Israeli attack on the Syrian military has jacked up tensions between Tel Aviv and Moscow. "Israel has warned that Iranian forces must leave Syria. At the same time Jerusalem has good relations with Russia and Moscow has indicated it respects Israel's concerns about Iranian involvement in Syria," wrote Seth Frantzman at the conclusion of a conclusion in the Jerusalem Post . "This delicate balance now is at risk of changing after Latakia. The death of Russian servicemen cannot be ignored by Moscow and Russia shows that it doesn't want to accept that this was a terrible mistake, but rather seeing the airstrikes as endangering Russian lives." Avi Issacharoff, writing in the Times of Israel , also notes that the Israeli strike occurred in an area that had more or less heretofore off limits to the Israeli military, primarily because of the large presence of the Russian military in the area. Russia's Hmeimim air base lies only 18 km to the south of Latakia city. Russia's Tartous naval base is further down the coast, about 65 km, but the Russian navy also uses the port of Latakia as a secondary base. Israeli air strikes in this area clearly increase the risk to Russian service members deployed to these locations and this is not tolerable to the Russians.

Posted at 06:17 PM in Israel , Russia , Syria , Willy B | Permalink | 14 Comments

[Sep 19, 2018] Russia blames Israel after Syria kills 15 in Il-20 plane in air battle

Sep 19, 2018 | www.businessinsider.com

Russia said its Il-20 went down about 35 kilometers from the Syrian coast at about 11 p.m. local time, during the heat of the battle.

Russian media said that four Israeli F-16s carried out the attack and that Israel gave just one minute's warning to Russia, which maintains large military bases in the region.

"The Israeli pilots used the Russian plane as cover and set it up to be targeted by the Syrian air-defense forces," Russian media reported the Russian Defense Ministry as saying. "As a consequence, the Il-20, which has radar cross section much larger than the F-16, was shot down by an S-200 system missile."

"As a result of the irresponsible actions of the Israeli military, 15 Russian service personnel perished. This absolutely does not correspond to the spirit of Russian-Israeli partnership," the Russian Defense Ministry spokesman Igor Konashenkov told Russian state media, Reuters noted.

[Sep 19, 2018] The Shoot Down of the Russian IL-20 Who's Responsible

Notable quotes:
"... Times of Israel ..."
"... Times of Israel ..."
Sep 19, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

All of the facts have yet to be known but the Russian Defense Ministry has little doubt: the Israelis created the conditions by which Syrian air defenses took down a Russian Il-20 electronic intelligence aircraft in the midst of an Israeli air strike on a Syrian Arab Army facility in Latakia between 10 PM and 11 PM local time Monday night.

Russian Defense Ministry spokesman Igor Konashenkov told reporters, this morning, that four Israeli F-16's used the Il-20 as cover to protect themselves from Syrian air defenses. "By using the Russian plane as a cover the Israeli air pilots made it vulnerable to Syrian air defense fire. As a result, the Ilyushin-20, its reflective surface being far greater than that of F-16, was downed by a missile launched with the S-200 system," Konashenkov said. The Israeli planes deliberately created a dangerous situation for surface ships and aircraft in that area, he stated. "The bombing raid was near the French frigate The Auvergne and in close proximity to the Ilyushin-20 plane of Russia's Aerospace Force that was about to land," Konashenkov said. The Russians had initially said that they had detected missiles fired from the Auvergne, but by daybreak had stopped saying that, and the French have denied involvement.

After Konashenkov's press briefing Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu issued a very strong statement vowing a Russian response. "We have informed today our Israeli colleagues, and I have also informed personally the Israeli Defense Minister [Avigdor Lieberman], that such actions will not be left unanswered by us," Shoigu said . "Our reconnaissance airplane Il-20 with 15 crew members on board" which had been collecting intelligence on jihadi drone operations in Idlib, "was in the strike zone, strictly speaking between Israel's aircraft - four F-16 planes - and Syrian territory," he said. "The Israeli side didn't issue a notification or, to be more precise, they warned us a minute before conducting the strike," he said. "They told us they were about to attack facilities on the Syrian territory, and they did it." Putin later said during a joint press conference with the prime minister of Hungary that he signed off on Shoigu's statement. "No doubt we should seriously look into this," he said .

The IDF then took the unusual step of issuing a statement, at mid-day, admitting that they were responsible for the air strike and expressing sorrow for the loss of the 15 crew members aboard the Il-20. However, they blamed Damascus, Hezbollah and Iran for the shoot down, reports the Times of Israel . According to the IDF, the target of the Monday night strike was a Syrian military facility that manufactured "accurate and lethal weapons," which were "about to be transferred, on behalf of Iran, to Hezbollah in Lebanon." The military said its initial investigation found that "the Syrian anti-air batteries fired indiscriminately and, from what we understand, did not bother to ensure that no Russian planes were in the air." the Russians will know whether or not any of this is true by their own radar data and their close working relationship with the Syrian air defense units.

In any case, it doesn't appear that Vladimir Putin was convinced b y the Israeli explanation though he did make a point, during his press conference, of differentiating this incident from the shoot down of a Russian Su-24 bomber by Turkish F-16's in November of 2016. According to the Kremlin readout of a phone conversation that Putin had with Netanyahu the Israeli prime minister promised to provide detailed information on the activities of the Israeli Air Force over Syrian territory on that day, which will be delivered soon to Moscow by the Israeli Air Force commander. Putin, in turn, "noted that operations of this nature by the Israeli Air Force are in violation of Syria's sovereignty. In this particular case, Russian-Israeli agreements on preventing dangerous incidents had not been observed either, and that resulted in the Russian aircraft coming under Syrian air defence fire. The Russian President called on the Israeli side to prevent such incidents in the future."

Israeli commentary on this incident takes note that the deaths of Russian service members in the context of an Israeli attack on the Syrian military has jacked up tensions between Tel Aviv and Moscow. "Israel has warned that Iranian forces must leave Syria. At the same time Jerusalem has good relations with Russia and Moscow has indicated it respects Israel's concerns about Iranian involvement in Syria," wrote Seth Frantzman at the conclusion of a conclusion in the Jerusalem Post . "This delicate balance now is at risk of changing after Latakia. The death of Russian servicemen cannot be ignored by Moscow and Russia shows that it doesn't want to accept that this was a terrible mistake, but rather seeing the airstrikes as endangering Russian lives." Avi Issacharoff, writing in the Times of Israel , also notes that the Israeli strike occurred in an area that had more or less heretofore off limits to the Israeli military, primarily because of the large presence of the Russian military in the area. Russia's Hmeimim air base lies only 18 km to the south of Latakia city. Russia's Tartous naval base is further down the coast, about 65 km, but the Russian navy also uses the port of Latakia as a secondary base. Israeli air strikes in this area clearly increase the risk to Russian service members deployed to these locations and this is not tolerable to the Russians.

Posted at 06:17 PM in Israel , Russia , Syria , Willy B | Permalink | 14 Comments

[Sep 19, 2018] Putin Absolves Israel Over Syria Strike, but Crisis With Moscow Reaches All the Way to Tehran

Sep 19, 2018 | www.haaretz.com

Monday's incident near Latakia, in which 15 Russian soldiers were killed in a downed plane, might see Russia toughen its stance toward Israel and curtail the air force's freedom of action in Syria

Sep 19, 2018 11:28 AM "You always have to remember the first lesson in military history: Don't mess with the Russians," a senior officer in the Israel Defense Forces said on Monday – without realizing how prophetic his words were.

[Sep 19, 2018] Israeli actions leading to destruction on Il-20 look preplanned opration

Sep 19, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

Bill Herschel -> Pat Lang , an hour ago

And one might be right. On the other hand, there is a timeline of the Israeli F-16's actions that resulted in the downing of the IL-20 in Izvestia. It was completely intentional. Premeditated murder. The planes were within several hundred meters of each other. The Israeli's set up the IL-20 knowing beforehand it would be destroyed.

I would not want to be the pilot of the next Israeli plane that attacks Lebanon. Avoiding being hit by Syrian air defense by murdering Russian servicemen is heavy baggage to carry.

Oh, and the Israeli Army? Well, they have nothing to fear, because they will never see combat again. Strictly joint maneuvers with the KSA.

And Trump? Emasculated internationally. Unless you count Fort Trump in Poland. Oh, wait...

https://iz.ru/790550/kirill...

FB , 3 hours ago
There is a lot that doesn't make sense about the downing of this Russian spy plane...some have pointed to the presence of the French frigate and the fact that Russian sensors detected it firing missiles...the Israeli F16s as the author notes happened to be sailing missiles right over the Russians' heads in Latakia, which previously has not happened...the area being considered off-limits due to the Russian flag there...

All of this happens at precisely the moment in time when Putin and Erdogan produce a very significant agreement on Idlib, that de-militarized zone of 15 to 20 km along the entire periphery of Idlib...looking at a map that amounts to easily half the territory of the province...taking half of Idlib without firing a shot is actually a pretty big win...

One can see how various elements of the global borg would be quite unhappy about that...they had been using Erdog as a cat's paw on Idlib up to now, but he finally realized that he can't keep dancing on the head of a pin forever...he needs Russian gas, nuclear power and military hardware...and he needs Chinese investment and financial help...both China and Russia are 100 percent resolved that those thousands of Russian and Chinese headchoppers in Idlib have to go...

PRC90 , 13 hours ago
The question of a passive homing SAM navigating it's way to the largest radar cross section within it's arc, and not to the smaller returns from alleged nearby strike aircraft was raised in relation to MH17. If this occurred here then IAF casual reliance on a misplaced belief in the competence of the SAA air defences may be a tenuous way to blame Israel.

However, Russian EW data hoovered up during the attack may show another story.

Another obvious question is the 'one minute' warning time given by IAF. The Russians would have been aware of the ingressing F16's and probably their actual takeoff's but did not clear their own IL-20 aircraft out of the airspace ahead of them, possibly indicating that an IAF presence was a regular and normal event not necessarily resulting in strikes. What is on IAF / US EW data as intercepted Russian voice and data link material may show the details of that - not that anything but the cherry picks will ever be released.

[Sep 19, 2018] The recon plane was lost due to gross incompetence or sabotage by the commanders overseeing the Syria operation. For sure, they knew that Israeli jets were activated. Proper procedure requires defenseless assets to be protected. So orders should have been given to scramble Russian jets from Khmeimim.

Sep 19, 2018 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com
Kirill, September 19, 2018 at 5:30 am

All the yammering about Putin by the resident Finn is moronic. The recon plane was lost due to gross incompetence or sabotage by the commanders overseeing the Syria operation. For sure, they knew that Israeli jets were activated. Proper procedure requires defenseless assets to be protected. So orders should have been given to scramble Russian jets from Khmeimim. This would have prevented the Israeli ploy and all the discussion about why friendly fire happened would not be taking place.

The real test for Putin is if he can fire the Russian clowns responsible for this fiasco and even have them charged with criminal negligence if not treason.

Moscow Exile September 19, 2018 at 5:42 am

There's a criminal investigation into the incident that is now under way at the MoD.

I saw a report earlier today about this. Lost the source since.

[Sep 19, 2018] I'd like to see Russia take a harder line

Notable quotes:
"... n this particular case, Russian-Israeli agreements on preventing dangerous incidents had not been observed either, and that resulted in the Russian aircraft coming under Syrian air defence fire. The Russian President called on the Israeli side to prevent such incidents in the future. ..."
"... But before you get too admiring of the heavy hand of America and its reputation for taking no shit from nobody, review the USS LIBERTY incident. Israel continued to pour everything it had into sinking the LIBERTY with all hands and without a trace, right up until a radio call from a nearby Carrier Task Group announced it was sending aid, at which point Israeli forces broke off the attack, announced it had been a terrible mistake, and tried to offer assistance, which was angrily refused. ..."
Sep 19, 2018 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

James lake September 18, 2018 at 10:13 pm

Netanyahu phone call to Putin..

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/58589
The Israeli Prime Minister expressed his condolences over the death of the 15 servicemen aboard the Il-20 aircraft shot down in Syria on September 17. With respect to a thorough investigation, Benjamin Netanyahu promised to provide detailed information on the activities of the Israeli Air Force over Syrian territory on that day, which will be delivered soon to Moscow by the Israeli Air Force commander.

Vladimir Putin noted that operations of this nature by the Israeli Air Force are in violation of Syria's sovereignty. In this particular case, Russian-Israeli agreements on preventing dangerous incidents had not been observed either, and that resulted in the Russian aircraft coming under Syrian air defence fire. The Russian President called on the Israeli side to prevent such incidents in the future.

In other words Israel don't do it again. My prediction that nothing would be done is proved correct.

Didn't take long for excuses to be made for Israel – after what they did to your own people.

Mark Chapman September 19, 2018 at 9:06 am
Maybe they should just shoot the Israeli Air Force Commander as soon as he steps off the plane. Or better still, shoot down his plane with him on it as soon as he enters Russian airspace!

You're not wrong, and I'd like to see Russia take a harder line with those Israeli yobbos, since continuing to do things the civilized way merely assures them they are the masters of dirty tricks and innocent faces.

But before you get too admiring of the heavy hand of America and its reputation for taking no shit from nobody, review the USS LIBERTY incident. Israel continued to pour everything it had into sinking the LIBERTY with all hands and without a trace, right up until a radio call from a nearby Carrier Task Group announced it was sending aid, at which point Israeli forces broke off the attack, announced it had been a terrible mistake, and tried to offer assistance, which was angrily refused.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ussliberty.html

Israel murdered 34 American servicemen that day, and would have killed everyone on board and in all probability blamed the disappearance on the Arabs, except for the surprising durability of the ship despite tremendous damage. And the American government's verdict, against overwhelming evidence to the contrary, was that Israel had simply made a mistake. It's notable here that Israel's excuse was it had mistaken LIBERTY for a decommissioned Egyptian horse-carrier. Even if that were true, would it have been worth the combined might of the Israeli navy and air force to sink an Egyptian horse-carrier? What would be the tactical triumph in that?

[Sep 18, 2018] Israel did not warn the command of the Russian troops in Syria about the planned operation

Notable quotes:
"... At the same time as the Israeli air force attacked, a Russian frigate (red) near the coast detected missile launches from the French Frigate Auvergne (blue) nearby. The French frigate carries air, ship and land attack missiles. France denied "any involvement in the incident." But it seems that this only referred to the IL-20 incident and did not deny launching missiles. ..."
"... Israel (and France?) are deliberately provoking the Syrian and Russian forces. It hopes for a response that allows it play the victim and to call on U.S. President Trump for help and protection. The help would come in the form of a U.S., British and French attack on the Syrian government and Syrian military targets. ..."
"... something stinks...The Syrian and russian AD systems are linked together for the express purpose of not shooting themselves...The IL20 should have been a big friendly target, and not targetable by syrian AD... ..."
"... At the same time, Israel is constantly working to prevent our enemies from arming themselves with advanced weaponry. Our red lines are as sharp as ever and our determination to enforce them is stronger than ever. ..."
"... This week we will mark, in synagogues and cemeteries, Yom Kippur, the holiest day of our people, and the day on which, 45 years ago, we absorbed a bloody attack that cost us thousands of victims. ..."
"... If Israel did not attack Syria without any legal pretext, none of this would have happened. Why do the USA and its NATO allies stand by and watch as Israel commits so many acts of naked aggression? ..."
"... Because USA and NATO are wholly owned subsidiaries of Israel. Besides, the USA does not sit idly by - it actively supports Israel. ..."
Sep 18, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

dan , Sep 18, 2018 6:36:35 AM | link

<). This agreement takes away the chance of an imminent wider war in which the U.S. and some of its allies would use a fake 'chemical attack' as a pretext to launch missiles against a large number of Syrian government targets and military positions.>

A peaceful solution of the Idleb situation is unsatisfying for Israel. The successful Syrian defeat of the Jihadi enemy inside the country would allow Syria and its allies to concentrate their forces against Israel. Israel wants the Syrian government destroyed and the country in chaos.

On Sunday September 16 Israel tried to hit an Iranian Boeing 747 freight plane at Damascus airport. The plane allegedly carried an Iranian copy of the Russian S-300 long range air defense System for the Syrian army.

On Monday around 10:00pm local time 4 F-16 jets of the Israeli airforce, coming from the sea, launched missiles against at least three targets on Syria's coast. The strike came only hours after Israel released satellite images of what it called "strategic targets" in Syria. The integrated Syrian and Russian air-defenses responded.

The Israeli air force had warned the Russian forces in Syria only one minute before the strike. A Russian IL-20 electronic warfare airplane (red line) was preparing to land at the Russian airport near Latakia just as the Israeli attack (blue) happened.


Source: Russian defense Ministry - bigger

The IL-20 was hit 35 kilometers off the coast by a S-200 air-defense missile fired by the Syrian military towards the Israeli attack. There were 15 Russian soldiers on board of the plane which were likely all killed. Russian ships search for survivors. Some wreckage of the plane was found at sea 27 kilometers west of the village of Banias.


IL-20 electronic warfare version - bigger

The Israeli attack came out of the same direction as the Russian IL-20. The large 4 propeller plane creates a much bigger radar reflection than the small F-16s fighter jets. The S-200 missiles have a semi-active radar homing seeker . These are passive detectors of a radar signal which is provided by an external source, in this case the Syrian and Russian radars on the ground. While the missile was aimed at the F-16 its seeker likely mistook the larger radar reflection of IL-20 for the intended target.

At the same time as the Israeli air force attacked, a Russian frigate (red) near the coast detected missile launches from the French Frigate Auvergne (blue) nearby. The French frigate carries air, ship and land attack missiles. France denied "any involvement in the incident." But it seems that this only referred to the IL-20 incident and did not deny launching missiles.

Even more was going on says Haaretz :

Not only Russian and (allegedly) Israeli and French aircraft and missiles were in the air. Civilian radar also tracked British Royal Air Force aircraft, which, unusually, had switched on their transponders and gone into holding patterns – most likely to avoid being somehow involved in the exchange of fire over Latakia.

The Russian Defense Ministry accuses the Israeli government of a deliberate set up:

"Israel did not warn the command of the Russian troops in Syria about the planned operation. We received a notification via a hotline less than a minute before the strike, which did not allow the Russian aircraft to be directed to a safe zone," Russian Defense Ministry spokesman Maj. Gen. Igor Konashenkov said.

After the Israeli attack the Syrian state TV showed the headquarters of the Technical Industries Agency near Latakia on fire. Other targets were near Jableh, south of Latakia, and Homs. At least ten people were wounded due to these attacks.

The Russian military spokesman also accused Israel of "hostile action" against Russian forces:

"We see these provocative actions of Israel as hostile," Konashenkov said, adding that 15 Russian servicemen were killed as a result of the "irresponsible actions" of Israel's Defense Forces, which violated "the spirit of the Israeli-Russian partnership."
According to the spokesman, the Russian Defense Ministry reserves the right to an "adequate response" following the Israeli attack.

Israel (and France?) are deliberately provoking the Syrian and Russian forces. It hopes for a response that allows it play the victim and to call on U.S. President Trump for help and protection. The help would come in the form of a U.S., British and French attack on the Syrian government and Syrian military targets.

Russia will certainly take revenge for the Israeli provocation, but will likely do so in the political arena. On Netanyahoo's personal request Russia had stopped the delivery of original Russian S-300 long range air-defense missiles to the Syrian military. These would have been less likely to veer off towards the wrong target. In consequence an Iranian 747 was damaged and 15 Russian soldiers were killed. Netanyahoo can forget about any further such 'favors' from Moscow.

Posted by b on September 18, 2018 at 06:09 AM | Permalink

Comments next page " I am not sure. Give it more time to play out. Everyone is scurrying about trying to figure out the next move right now. Yom Kippur is just around the corner, the Israelis are quiet...


Arioch , Sep 18, 2018 6:41:32 AM | link

If that interpretation holds water I can see two variants.

Remember, recently Russia told they upgraded all electronics within old Soviet S-125 and S-200 missiles in Syria. Russia also allegedly retrained Syrian Arab Army personnel and plugged their stations into Russian AD network.

Option 1: Israeli indeed were hiding behind IL-20. They did not intended harm to it, they merely were shielding themselves from Syrian AD, effectively disabling the station. They did not expect Syrians to actually fire in anger with such a complicated dynamic geometry.

Option 2: Israeli just demonstrated that despite all the fanfares about Russian upgrading and drilling Syrian Arab Army air defensed, SAA is still only SAA.

Afterall back then in Egypt IAF successfully challenged Soviet air force. So they probably still are highly skilled in both technological and psychological aspects of air warfare.

oldenyoung , Sep 18, 2018 6:43:51 AM | link
something stinks...The Syrian and russian AD systems are linked together for the express purpose of not shooting themselves...The IL20 should have been a big friendly target, and not targetable by syrian AD...

regards

OY

timbers , Sep 18, 2018 6:46:50 AM | link
Umm....didn't some say Syrian didn't need S300. How's that werk'in out fer yah????

And why does't Iran have S400 but Saudi Arabia and Turkey do? How's that gonna werk out fer yah?

Harry , Sep 18, 2018 6:49:33 AM | link
I don't get why Israel would backstab friendly superpower, which kept SAA and Iran off its back and allowed to bomb Syria without any consequences. Even refused S-300 delivery to SAA (what to speak of S-400, which is offered to countries like Turkey and Saudis). Israel might be panicking, but I only see negative outcome out of this mess.

Russia was always way too lenient in such situations in the past, therefore I don't expect much in response. There wont be military reaction, and after some Israel's concessions (IMHO Israel will offer something in one shape or another) there might even not be overt political response. I still doubt Russia will hand over S-300 to SAA, at the most Russia might threaten with it but wont follow through.

If Iranian Bavar 373 was really destroyed in Damascus international airport as Magnier suspects, it would be a damn shame. That's what Syria really needs now.

Realistic , Sep 18, 2018 6:51:07 AM | link
In all honesty, the reality of Russia's weakness is there if you want to see it. There will be no delivery of S-300s to Syria, there will be no retaliation by Russia towards Israel.

"Political" retaliation is tantamount to "imaginary" retaliation, much like many declare Putin having won in Syria even as the war has not even ended.

Zanon , Sep 18, 2018 6:54:05 AM | link
On Netanyahoo's personal request Russia had stopped the delivery of original Russian S-300 long range air-defense missiles to the Syrian military. In consequence a Iranian 747 was damaged and 15 Russian soldiers were killed. .

Exactly, only way forward now is to give Syria S300 otherwise this killing will occur again - if Putin do not do this he is way more dumb than we can imagine apparently.

Tom Welsh , Sep 18, 2018 6:54:28 AM | link
What cannot be denied by anyone is that all this harm was deliberately caused by Israel. It openly boasts of having bombed Syria hundreds of times "to attack Iranian targets". But that is no excuse at all! International law, the UN Charter and the Nuremberg Principles forbid any nation to attack another nation that has not declared war on it, unless by order of the UNSC.

If Israel did not attack Syria without any legal pretext, none of this would have happened. Why do the USA and its NATO allies stand by and watch as Israel commits so many acts of naked aggression?

It is perfectly obvious that all American and NATO talk of the "rules-based international order" are self-serving hypocritical lies. The only rule that they recognize is "We are always right, and we may do whatever we wish".

It is time for Russia (and, if possible, China and other nations) really to hurt Israel and its co-conspirators by any means they can.

Nils , Sep 18, 2018 6:57:36 AM | link
How do you know all this?

Aranian Boeing hit? Is there any photographic evidence?

Russian airplane shot down as the missile mistook the target? Who told you this?

As we have seen with the fake US, France and Uk attack on Barzeh, Damascus, on a science institute that was already demolished, not a single rocket was launched then, we must be very careful to check all information.

somebody , Sep 18, 2018 7:00:06 AM | link
Attacking Latakia from the Mediterranean is a huge provocation in itself never mind what happened to the Russian plane.

Israel would have needed US backing if not incitement for this and it surely had.

The significance I suppose is that Israel has clearly taken sides now there is no longer trying to balance policy towards Russia.

Either the US forced them or the Russian deal with Turkey was too much.
I don't see how this can end well.

Response will be neither political nor military. It will be asymmetric.

Mina , Sep 18, 2018 7:05:26 AM | link
Le Monde manages to make no reference to Israel in its online title frontpage
https://www.lemonde.fr/proche-orient/article/2018/09/18/avion-russe-abattu-en-syrie-confusion-dans-la-region-de-lattaquie_5356629_3218.html

The BBC is for once a little bit more honest
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45556290

Realistic , Sep 18, 2018 7:05:47 AM | link
@10 There will be no response. Russia will move in more assets and hope it will scare Israel off, but it won't.
Arioch , Sep 18, 2018 7:06:08 AM | link
@Nils #9

> Russian airplane shot down as the missile mistook the target? Who told you this?

a wide number of online media said it, attributing to Russian MoD

sadly, MoD's site itself is very rarely updated about Syria


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now that gets interesting.

RusMoD announces publishing extra information on #MH17 Boeing downed over Ukraine
https://twitter.com/mod_russia/status/1041679984287522816
ENG: https://twitter.com/mod_russia/status/1041680008018894848

Coincidence theory says it is unrelated, but who knows....

Antares , Sep 18, 2018 7:13:28 AM | link
"Israel wants the Syrian government destroyed and the country in chaos."
Combining the fact that the war is almost lost for the Anglosaxion axis and the stubborn moves pushing for more war could mean that Israel is only after the Golan Heights and not (yet) after Syria or Iran. They don't care about other's losses.
Zanon , Sep 18, 2018 7:15:25 AM | link
As few of us here have tried to point out so many times months ago here - Russia is weak and have nothing against US/Nato/Israel.
Whats worse is that Russia have appeased the same states so many times and now we see what this appeasement leads to.

Will it lead to anything, any return by Russia? No and that is why this will end with the bombing of Assad, there is no other way around this.

Sad day for Syria and humiliating for Russia being played by Israel/France, rather ridiculous.

pB , Sep 18, 2018 7:17:25 AM | link
every time russia shows itself to be a rational diplomatic actor, they get a kick in the teeth. the future is bleak.
craigsummers , Sep 18, 2018 7:38:50 AM | link
"........This agreement takes away the chance of an imminent wider war in which the U.S. and some of its allies would use a fake 'chemical attack' as a pretext to launch missiles against a large number of Syrian government targets and military positions......."

The Russian government is still stuck on inventing false theories on the downing of MH17 so their supposed intel about Britsh intelligence working with the "terrorists" to create a false flag chemical attack in Idlib is nothing more than propaganda i.e., more Russian lies. Most recently, the Russian government lied when they denied there was a chemical attack in Douma. According to the Russian MOD, this was all staged by the White Helmets.

To prove this point, the state-owned journalists at Channel 1 "staged" the staging of the chemical attack - and showed it on Russian television according to the Moscow Times ("Russian TV Uses Film Stills as Proof Syria Chemical Attack Was Staged": https://themoscowtimes.com/news/russian-tv-uses-film-stills-as-proof-syria-chemical-attack-was-staged-61249). Other lies have been exposed concerning the Douma chemical attack including that a child (used for pro Russian propaganda to prove the staging of the attack) was (secretly) interviewed at a Russian military complex in Damascus (Russian TV interview with Syrian boy was secretly conducted at army facility https://interc.pt/2K8gEd2 by @RobertMackey).

I agree that the downing of the Russian military plane is potentially a serious breech of the Russian-Israeli agreement. Israel was able to conduct airstrikes against Iranian military targets in Syria mostly unopposed by Russia. This certainly is in danger of changing. Russia could arm Syria with the S-300 missile defense system which would force Israel to change their tactics.

Mina , Sep 18, 2018 7:44:04 AM | link
Why can't Russia recall its ambassador and cut diplomatic relations? KSA/Qatar, KSA/Canada did, so it is the new normal, no?
Out of Istanbul , Sep 18, 2018 7:44:52 AM | link
With sufficient jamming and electronic counter measures (ECMs) in use, the semi-active seeker could have been tricked into a space close enough to the Il-20 that a detonation would damage/destroy it. It doesn't mean the system was garbage, or that the system even actively targeted the Russian plane, just that it was close enough that a detonation would destroy it. Using the radar section of the larger plane was an aggressive tactic, the interaction between the use of ECM and the S-200 might not have been understood to cause the destruction of the Russian plane although most certainly the risks were known and the attack wasn't called off.

This was certainly a well wrapped up provocation. Few people here seem to know that any Russian attack on NATO assets in the Mediterranean is grounds for invoking Article 5. I don't think NATO would care whether it was an accident or not, they seem to fabricate false flags at their leisure. Israel isn't in NATO so the mediterranean sea will be a less reliable battle space for them, unfortunately they can continue to violate Lebanese airspace at will.

As for improving the air defense system in Syria, S-200/300/400, aren't especially useful at suppressing these types of Israeli aggressions as many of them can be carried out without entering Syrian airspace or by using cruise missiles. For those types of attacks, Tor/Pantsir are the best you can do. But remember, even if the interception rate is 90%, if Israeli launches a 500 glide bombs, cruise missiles, or air to ground missiles, 50 would still get through to damage Syrian infrastructure. All in all, such use rates of weapons just feeds the MIC in the US...

A political or asymmetrical response is best. There will also be a repositioning of Russian assets in the region, not necessarily to deter future Israeli aggression but to strengthen the Russian negotiating position. The Russians might also be willing to ignore the loss of life for a technological transfer or two...

Zanon , Sep 18, 2018 7:45:50 AM | link
craigsummers

Actually you are lying/spreading propaganda. Nothing of what you just said refute that rebels in Douma might create false flag attacks as they have earlier before western attacks.

H , Sep 18, 2018 8:03:32 AM | link
The Syrians would have known about which Russian planes were in the area so it's hard to see how they could have shot one down unless they're just incompetent.
Robert McMaster , Sep 18, 2018 8:10:00 AM | link
The politics of this is very bad for Russia. Toadying Isreal and getting kicked for it. Failing to arm Syria is noted by other states, partners. This is where you will wind up with the ever-weak Russians. This incident emboldens Isreal, the U.S, UK. Take strong action and Russia (and China) will just whine and fold. Disheartens all those who have been counting on Russia.

You can hardly count the damage this bad behaviour by Russia is and will cause.

EtTuBrute , Sep 18, 2018 8:15:09 AM | link
Here is what an appropriate response with balls would look like:

"Israel has bombed Syria over 200 times in the past 18 months.

Syrian attacks on Israel: Zero

Syria is an Ally of the Russian Federation. Israel's latest aggression has costs 15 Russian lives.

Any further attack on Syria by Israel (or anyone else) will be met with the full force of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, including its nuclear arsenal, if deemed appropriate.

We understand an attack on Israel (or other western US ally) could be met with retaliation on Russian interests in Syria or on Russian soil.

To be clear, any attack on Russian interests will be met with the destruction of the attack's source, be it sea, air or land based. Any attack on Russian soil will be met with a devastating full scale Nuclear attack on American soil, leading to possible MAD.

It appears therefore that the future of the world now depends on Israel's desire to pursue its aggression towards Syria, a country that has never attacked Israel, or any of the other nations waging war against it since 2012 now, covertly or not.

We strongly encourage our western partners to work with Israel to maintain peace and strategic balance in the world, and with Russia in its efforts to reinstate Syrian sovereignty over its own territory.

We trust it is in everyone's interest to avoid any further unnecessary and potentially catastrophic escalation."

but yeah, we will get some ban on israeli dates, nuts and hummus imports to russia and maybe they will offer to pay for the funerals as well. until next time, the russian bear is patiently turning into a nice furry rug for the west to walk on again. for now..

laserlurk , Sep 18, 2018 8:18:43 AM | link
It is hard to tell really what is the background of this incident. Question is what french ship was doing there and did it really fire missiles?

Russia is carefully balancing in this triade between Turkey, Israel and Iran and had surely anticipated some sort of suchlike provocations. Israel could have just entraped itself with this attack way across the russian red line - that is for sure. So I doubt that we will see more of such adventures in the days to come, unless of course Russia's retaliation renders Israel to comply with agreed rules of engagement and Israel refuses to understand those. Then we will see wider kinetic events over the Med theater and I am sure it will not end up well for opponents of Syria and its allies.

Zanon , Sep 18, 2018 8:25:58 AM | link
Robert McMaster

I wonder what they are up to overall, Idlib deal with Turkey for example, just days before an assualt, what did they expect? How would that deal end anything by letting rebels/terrorists a way out?
THe russians doesnt seems to have a general plan for why they are in Syria anymore.

donkeytale , Sep 18, 2018 8:27:52 AM | link
This seems plausible and also fitting with both the US statement about the attack as well as my belief Israel, not the US, is obviously the most interested anti-Assad party on the ground (and in the air). I don't doubt Russia will manage to extract some measure of revenge in time and agree it will by necessity be diplomatic in nature.

b, your even handed assessments continue to impress. Your journalism gains credibility in time. I know many here are surprised and bitterly disappointed the attack on Idleb has not already commenced and will be delayed indefinitely at least beyond the US midterm elections.

Russ , Sep 18, 2018 8:29:55 AM | link
I can't argue with any of these criticisms of the Russians. For all the attempts to depict the Turkey deal as some kind of masterstroke, the fact remains that Putin planned to attack in Idleb and then caved in to extortion (the false flag threat) in a way that never works and only emboldens the extortionist. With these Zionist attacks we're already seeing the result.
Ian , Sep 18, 2018 8:34:27 AM | link
I predict the Russian response would be to deny the airspace around large Russian air assets such as the IL-20. The IDF would find it difficult to use this tactic again.
Robert Browning , Sep 18, 2018 8:36:40 AM | link
Why the French battleship?? Is Trump hostile to Jew trouble making?
somebody , Sep 18, 2018 8:40:03 AM | link
Posted by: Realistic | Sep 18, 2018 7:05:47 AM | 12

Russia can begin sharing more information with Hezbollah. They can give protection to Hezbollah.

Lots of possibilities.

Russia is restricted by a lot of its citizens living in Israel. But that applies to Netanyahu, too.

Jackrabbit , Sep 18, 2018 8:42:21 AM | link
I don't believe this attack had anything to do with the Idlib agreement.

Just another Israeli attack on Syria.

AG17 , Sep 18, 2018 8:48:48 AM | link
What was France doing there.. why no one asking about the British military aircraft on the radar in that area
imo , Sep 18, 2018 8:49:51 AM | link
@23 [EtTuBrute | Sep 18, 2018 8:15:09 AM] -- "Syria is an Ally of the Russian Federation. Israel's latest aggression has costs 15 Russian lives."

Interesting deep core values issue here, imo.

Whether 15 Russian lives, or 25m (+/-) in WW2 -- what does it matter in the (western) public perception business?

Very little perhaps: either (a) they (Russians) are just grunt stupid comrade-cogs in a communist machine and don't matter all that much (the value of a Palestinian vs an Israeli etc); and/or (b) even they themselves (Russians) don't give a f_ck about an individual's identity representing a nation's pride and sovereignty -- something that the USA (and others) at least claim (when it suits them).

Hard to read but basically it's well past 'who gives a toss' what Russia thinks and feels -- it's what they do (or don't do) that counts ... and they don't do much these days except for patience. Where's the need for 'respect' in that?

Tel Aviv; Paris; London; and Washington are just rolling around on the floor laughing, imo.

SlapHappy , Sep 18, 2018 8:55:46 AM | link
The Russians should sink a couple of Israel's Dolphin submarines; that would send the appropriate message.
Oui , Sep 18, 2018 9:07:39 AM | link
Yep!

Fucking Israelis Stirring Up Big Trouble

Jackrabbit , Sep 18, 2018 9:08:02 AM | link
Russ @27:
Putin planned to attack in Idleb and then caved in to extortion

No. This erroneous belief shows the true danger in the view that 'Erdogan has turned east'.

Putin wasn't scared off. He simply failed to plan for Erdogan's mischief: he was played by Erdogan.

Here's what happened:

1) Erdogan needed cover for his full occupation of Idlib.

2) USA threats underscored Erdogan's humanitarian cover story.

3) A war against Turkey would simply be too costly. So a Turkish occupation will not be contested.


<> <> <> <> <> <>

Putin gambled on Turkey. But Erdogan has been playing both sides. And Erdogan's Islamist orientation means that his sympathies lie with the Jihadi's.

Pat Lang said that R+6 should have moved to take Idlib after Aleppo. He has now been proven right.

Oui , Sep 18, 2018 9:09:05 AM | link
@b

Tongue twister .. typo Idelb should read Idleb ;)

Mina , Sep 18, 2018 9:09:36 AM | link
In his press conference with Orban just now, Putin recalled that a Turkish jet had voluntarily downed a Russian plane (meaning Ergo knew yesterday what was coming? thus his grim?) and that in this case it was not voluntarily that the Russian plane had been put down but that very visible measures would be taken to step up the Russian presence on Syrian ground...
partizan , Sep 18, 2018 9:09:59 AM | link
i believe in none of this shit.
sarz , Sep 18, 2018 9:18:29 AM | link
https://www.rt.com/news/438728-putin-israel-syria-plane/

Putin says it was a tragic set of circumstances.

somebody , Sep 18, 2018 9:20:43 AM | link
Posted by: Russ | Sep 18, 2018 8:29:55 AM | 27

No. This was a Russian "win", as they got Turkey to cooperate. Turkey can now find out which Syrian "rebels" it does indeed control and eliminate the rest with Russia. Both, Turkey and Russia, granting the Syrian army it will not get attackes.

It was clear in the run up that "the West" threatened to attack in case the Syrian army and Russia attacked Idlib. Cooperation with Turkey means Syria reached its goals without the attack.

Putin has now called the downing of the Russian plane "looks like a chain of tragic circumstances". This will have cost Netanyahu.

b , Sep 18, 2018 9:22:37 AM | link
@craigsummers

The U.S. alleged that Sarin and Chlorine was used in Douma, based on the propaganda group White Helmets and other militants.

The Syrian observatory did not report a gas attack. It said that several people suffocate from dust after their shelter collapsed.

The OPCW, which took samples and analyzed them, found no trace of Sarin or similar and found no evidence for the use of Chlorine gas.

Several 'western' journalist went to Douma and talked to witnesses. All, including the medical personal in the nearby clinic, denied that any such a thing happened.

You can read all of that in detail here: Syria - OPCW Issues First Report Of 'Chemical Weapon Attack' in Douma

The claimed Douma attack was obviously fake.

Julian , Sep 18, 2018 9:23:51 AM | link
Re: Posted by: H | Sep 18, 2018 8:03:32 AM | 21
The Syrians would have known about which Russian planes were in the area so it's hard to see how they could have shot one down unless they're just incompetent .

Or the Syrians are just extremely frustrated with the Russians 'slow-playing' the whole situation and wanted an ' 'excuse' to 'accidentally' shoot down the wrong plane.

Oops.

Sorry Vlad, bet this wouldn't have happened if we had a more up-to-date air defense system. S-300, or S-400 say.

Pity we haven't been able to get one of those to defend ourselves........

astabada , Sep 18, 2018 9:25:55 AM | link
@Arioch 13

The revelations about MH17 were already happening before the incident. For example the Russians disclosed that they used the serial number of the missile (published by the JIT) to identify the manufacturing plant, the production date as well as the ownership.

Julian , Sep 18, 2018 9:27:53 AM | link
Re: Posted by: donkeytale | Sep 18, 2018 8:27:52 AM | 26

Re - an attack on Idlib being delayed beyond the US Mid-Terms.

What about TurkStream? When is that online? 2020?

Yeah, the attack on Idlib might be delayed a whole lot longer than a few months.

How long has the attack on the Golan been delayed since the Golan Heights was stolen?

radiator , Sep 18, 2018 9:40:42 AM | link

Posted by: sarz | Sep 18, 2018 9:18:29 AM | 40
Putin says it was a tragic set of circumstances

I would expect this. No use in official blaming (MOD statements will be sufficient to make it clear that they know who's behind this), just make sure that such a thing won't happen again. Iirc he finished the press conference stating that russia must improve the coordination and communication of their defense and that would take place and will be noticed by everyone.
After all there's still a possibility that this particular incident was an accident after all.

paul , Sep 18, 2018 9:49:57 AM | link
What a lovely day yesterday for sadomasochist Putin. In the morning he got
Kalen , Sep 18, 2018 9:50:35 AM | link
Do you really believe those explanations? S400 could shut down F15 over Tel-Aviv, what they hell happened. I know for the fact that Syrian SAA have liaisons/instructors in very unit, shooting down Russian Spy airplane is impossible with this technology especially near Russian base with S400 that suppose to track all the Israeli Air Force bases and telling us that they were notified by Israel minutes before attack is a lie , they were not notified at all, as it takes minutes to Israeli jets to get into position to fire which Russian knew as soon as F15s took off.

It is charade people, the only reasonable explanation is that Putin was nice not to illuminate with combat radar Israeli F15 as long as they were outside of Syrian territory. Israel rarely did
it, did not have to.

.

somebody , Sep 18, 2018 9:50:37 AM | link
46
RT has a slightly different translation.

"Russia will investigate the incident, Putin said, adding that Moscow will boost security of Russian troops in Syria following the incident. He said that these will be "the steps that everyone will notice.""

paul , Sep 18, 2018 9:53:49 AM | link
in the morning he got to kiss his Master Erdogan's ring. In the evening Israel and Nato (France) gave a blazing demonstration of their TOTAL disrespect for Russia and Putin. This morning Putin gets to humiliate his military people, who FINALLY spoke some strong words vs Israel, only to be submarined by Putin who blithely forgave Israel entirely. Putin can't stoop and bow enough to Russia's and the world's enemies.

As I've said before, I suspect the military hierarchy, or part of it, is increasingly frustrated with the impossible and dishonorable situations Putin puts them in.

Red Corvair , Sep 18, 2018 9:56:33 AM | link
@Dan
I'm not so sure the Israelis are so "quiet":
"Earlier this month, an Israeli military official said the Jewish state has struck over 200 Iranian targets in Syria over the past 18 months."
US News, AP, September 17, 2018.
https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2018-09-17/syrian-tv-reports-suspected-israeli-strikes-on-state-company

According to the "Israeli official", that gives an average of about 11 Israeli strikes on Iranian targets in Syria PER MONTH for the last 18 months...
Your definition of "quiet" Israelis ??

Mina , Sep 18, 2018 9:59:24 AM | link
People here forget that it is the EU who is 100% backing Ergo (and giving him extra ideas?) because they don't want 1 single extra refugee to cross either the Syrian or the Turkish borders into Europe.
radiator , Sep 18, 2018 10:02:07 AM | link
@49 yes i wasn't trying to be literally accurate ;). Imho "everyone will notice" is a strong statement, that's what I was trying to point at.
Palloy , Sep 18, 2018 10:09:01 AM | link
Russia has its own S-400 systems defending Latakia, so it can defend itself and doesn't need Syria's S-200s.
They would have been watching the Israeli F-16s on radar, and then they get a phone call saying an attack is happening in one minute. Russia must have said "OK", because they didn't blow the F-16s out of the sky. All they have to say to Israel is "Next time it will NOT be OK." and Israel will have to stop it's invasions.

The hairy-chested Americans here are calling Putin weak, but he can't afford to make any over-reaching mistakes, and all decent, responsible human beings are glad of that. Do you want to have WW3 just to show how much "balls" you've got?

venice12 , Sep 18, 2018 10:09:18 AM | link
@6

STRONG IS NOT WHO FIGHTS WARS, STRONG IS WHO AVOIDS WAR.

pantaraxia , Sep 18, 2018 10:11:35 AM | link
Putin says it was a tragic set of circumstances.


Could there be a more passive response. Sounds like it came straight from the U.S. State Dept.. The only thing missing was some twisted version of how Israel has every right to protect itself even when using a Russian airliner as cover for an illegal missile strike against a Russian ally.

No mention of agency or responsibility for initiating this "tragic set of circumstances".

The reality is the jews have every western government AND Russia under their thumb and they can do whatever the f*ck they want with no fear of actual reprecussions other than some tepid verbal wet noodle lashing at worst.

Zanon , Sep 18, 2018 10:13:10 AM | link
Putin keep humiliating himself:

Israeli army blames Damascus for Russia's Il-20 downing, mourns death of crew – statement
https://www.rt.com/news/438712-idf-statement-il20-downing/

Putin on Israel's role in Il-20 downing: 'Looks accidental, like chain of tragic circumstances'
https://www.rt.com/news/438728-putin-israel-syria-plane/

Russian weird weak attitude begin to scare me.

Laguerre , Sep 18, 2018 10:19:40 AM | link
Quite an infestation of pro-Israeli trolls today, much more than usual. I guess they're trying to put over a point.
Arioch , Sep 18, 2018 10:19:50 AM | link
@astabada #44

> The revelations about MH17 were already happening before the incident

So just like many voices here claim Russia MUST immediately hurt Israel in a painful way, someone could had decided that Russian MoD should be punished painful way within few hours from their transgression.

Or it could be about "dominating news cycle" - when hot headlines are about Russian Military craft downed, who would lok into other information about Russian MoD right now? thus the new statements on MH17 are getting flushed into the memory hole.

bevin , Sep 18, 2018 10:30:53 AM | link
What appears to have happened is that an Israeli pilot used an old pilot's trick on the air defence system. Perhaps the French frigate was in on game, too.
The obvious next move is for the pilot to be court-martialled and a report/whitewash issued to establish that he was acting on his own initiative.
One of the less recognised problems with this situation is that, in the stand-off between the Deep State and the Presidency, local military commanders are able to make their own policy choices. In some cases, of course, these will reflect the dual loyalties which are increasingly to be found among military men who are unsure who they are fighting for but understand that nobody ever lost promotion by taking Israel's side.
mickey , Sep 18, 2018 10:30:58 AM | link
Arioch suggest Russian plane down in Syria to be a direct response to Russia's recent proof that the MH17 Boeing over Ukraine was shot down by Kiev using missiles produced in Ukraine by the government at Kiev.
Nil says the downed Russian airplane in Syria was intentional?
Somebody says somebody (USA, Saudia Arabia, or CIA, Mossad, or M16) forced
the war b/c/e Russian deal with Turkey was too much

Harry says he d/n understand why Israel would backstab friendly superpower, which kept SAA and Iran off its back and allowed to bomb Syria without any consequences. Even refused S-300 delivery to SAA (what to speak of S-400, which is offered to countries like Turkey and Saudis). Julian blames Russia for failing to give S-400 to Syria ( I agree, but the fact that Putin refuses to arm Syria with s-400 is very revealing indeed)

Welsh says It is time for Russia (and, if possible, China and other nations) really to hurt Israel and its co-conspirators by any means they can.8 Slaphappy thinks sinking Israeli Dophin Subs is the solution. Out of Istanbul reminds that any Russian attack on NATO assets in the Mediterranean is grounds for [NATO to invoke} Article 5. EtTuBrute wants total war,

R. Browning asks Why the French battleship? (B/b French owned Syria after WWI?

Realistic says no Russian Response, b/c Russia lacks the depth in-might to respond

I agree with Partizan, none of this shit explains the situation. Something else is behind this and most likely its oil and gas.

Arioch , Sep 18, 2018 10:38:44 AM | link
Reportedly, Israeli MoD issued an official statement, that

1. They express condolences.
2. They lay the responsibility with Assad, Hisbollah and Iran. Israeli jets were bombing Assad's plants producing W.M.D. that Hisbollah threatened Israel with.

3. When IAF jets were attacking Syria the IL-20 was not yet in AD's fire range.
4. When SAA AD started shooting missiles IAF jets were already back in Israeli air space after the attack was completed. SAA AD allegedly were shooting in panic everywhere without getting situational awareness

5. Israel allegedly would supply Russia with all the relevant documents and facts to investigate the accident.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1,2 - usual diplomatic bla-bla.
3,4 - if true (and Russian radars should have enough coverage to check it), shows both incompetence of SAA AD personnel and lack of AD integration (S-200 station only started reacting to the attack after the attack, they were not alerted in advance about IAF jets approaching, despite Russian AVACS in air)
5 - now that seems to be some rather strong language. Israel seems either heavily bluffing or freaked out. Or both.

Arioch , Sep 18, 2018 10:44:19 AM | link
@Tom Welsh #8

> International law, the UN Charter and the Nuremberg Principles forbid any nation to attack another nation that has not declared war on it, unless by order of the UNSC.

Arent's Syria and Israel at war for many decades? Same way like USA and DPRK?

Cassandra , Sep 18, 2018 10:46:26 AM | link
It seems that ME "colonial" history is repeating itself ...
(Anglo-French-Israeli deception 2.0.. with the US "kicking-ass" or was it "leading?" from behind)

https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/USO/chp1_p2.html

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ssfc0005/The%20Protocol%20of%20Sevres%201956%20Anatomy%20of%20a%20War%20Plot.html


The documentary evidence does not leave any room for doubt that at Sèvres, during the three days in late October 1956, an elaborate war plot was hatched against Egypt by the representatives of France, Britain and Israel.

The Protocol of Sèvres is the most conclusive piece of evidence for it lays out in precise detail and with a precise time-table how the joint war against Egypt was intended to proceed and shows foreknowledge of each other's intentions. The central aim of the plot was the overthrow of Gamal Abdel Nasser (F: his support for Algerian „rebels", UK: his nationalisation of Suez Canal) This aim is not explicitly stated in the protocol but it emerges clearly and unambiguously from all the records of the discussions surrounding it.

For him [Ben Gurion] the protocol was not something to be ashamed of but a major achievement. It represented a military pact with two great powers against a common enemy, albeit a secret and awkward pact. Britain's persistent cold-shouldering of Israel was disappointing and disconcerting. But Ben-Gurion felt that the protocol at least gave him a guarantee against betrayal by Perfidious Albion.


...An even more intriguing conversation took place at the end of this one. It concerned French assistance to Israel in developing nuclear technology. Details of this second conversation only emerged in 1995 when Shimon Peres published his memoirs. The relevant passage reads as follows:
Before the final signing, I asked Ben-Gurion for a brief adjournment, during which I met Mollet and Bourgés-Maunoury alone. It was here that I finalized with these two leaders an agreement for the building of a nuclear reactor at Dimona, in southern Israel... and the supply of natural uranium to fuel it. I put forward a series of detailed proposals and, after discussion, they accepted them.[40]... A year later, in September 1957, when Bourgès-Maunoury was prime minister, France delivered to Israel a nuclear reactor which was twice the capacity previously promised.[41]
...it shows that the French were determined to go to war at almost any price and for their own reasons, not, as Abel Thomas later claimed, in order to save Israel. Secondly, it reveals the full extent of the incentives that the French were prepared to give Israel in order to induce her to play the part assigned to her in the war plot against Egypt. Thirdly, it confirms the impression that Israel did not face any serious threat of Egyptian attack at that time but colluded with the European powers to attack Egypt for other reasons. Taken together, the two private conversations at Sèvres thus drive a coach and horses through the official version which says that Israel only went to war because if faced an imminent danger of attack from Egypt.

(Source: The Protocol of Sèvres,1956: Anatomy of a War Plot by Avi Shlaim)


How could Putin ever think he could trust Netanyahu or the IDF???

craigsummers , Sep 18, 2018 10:46:49 AM | link
@42

According to the July 6 interim report (INTERIM REPORT OF THE OPCW FACT-FINDING MISSION IN SYRIA REGARDING THE INCIDENT OF ALLEGED USE OF TOXIC CHEMICALS AS A WEAPON IN DOUMA, SYRIAN ARAB REPUBLIC, ON 7 APRIL 2018 - 2.6):

"..........The FFM team visited Locations 2 and 4, where it observed the presence of an industrial gas cylinder on a top floor patio at Location 2, and the presence of a similar cylinder lying on the bed of a top floor apartment at Location 4. Close to the location of each cylinder there were crater-like openings in the respective reinforced concrete roofs. Work is ongoing to assess the association of these cylinders with the incident, the relative damage to the cylinders and the roofs, and how the cylinders arrived at their respective locations ........."

At the very least, the OPCW has not made a final determination. According to a recent UN report (Jerusalem Post: U.N: "Assad regime guilty of more chemical weapons attacks this year" https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/UN-Assad-regime-guilty-of-more-chemical-weapons-attacks-this-year-567026):

".......These incidents bring to 39 the total known Syrian chemical attacks, a UN official said. BY REUTERS SEPTEMBER 12, 2018 13:35

GENEVA - Syrian government forces fired chlorine, a banned chemical weapon, on a rebel-held Damascus suburb and on Idlib province this year, in attacks that constitute war crimes, United Nations human rights investigators said on Wednesday. The three incidents bring to 39 the number of chemical attacks which the Commission of Inquiry on Syria has documented since 2013, including 33 attributed to the government, a UN official told Reuters. ........"To recapture eastern Ghouta in April, government forces launched numerous indiscriminate attacks in densely populated civilian areas, which included the use of chemical weapons," it said, referring to incidents on Jan. 22 and Feb. 1 in a residential area of Douma, eastern Ghouta, outside the capital ........A surface-to-surface, improvised rocket-assisted munition had been used in the two Douma incidents, it said. "Specifically the munitions documented were built around industrially-produced Iranian artillery rockets known to have been supplied to forces commanded by the (Syrian) government," the report added. In the northwest province of Idlib - where the United Nations fears a major imminent assault by Syrian and Russian forces against the last rebel-held stronghold - chlorine was also used on February 4, the UN report said."Government helicopters dropped at least two barrels carrying chlorine payloads in the Taleel area of Saraqeb," it said, adding that at least 11 men were injured. "Documentary and material evidence analyzed by the Commission confirmed the presence of helicopters in the area and the use of two yellow gas cylinders" ........"

This only confirms what Bellingcat determined months ago( https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/29/pieces-matter-syrias-chlorine-bombs-douma-chemical-attack/). In addition, Assad has ALREADY used chemical weapons in Idlib according to the UN report! Again, the OPCW has yet to publish a final determination on the gas cylinders at Douma.

Ace Hanlon , Sep 18, 2018 10:47:57 AM | link
Putin pathetic. The least he should have done is to DEMAND that Israel stop attacking Russia ally Syria.
Alaric , Sep 18, 2018 10:48:00 AM | link
Russians are now saying Israeli warplane(s) launched missiles from near the French frigate so they don't believe the French launched anything.

If true, Israel just tried to start WW3.

Trisha Driscoll , Sep 18, 2018 10:48:21 AM | link
Sadly, those 15 Russian aircrew were just pawns in a bigger game. True of any lower ranks serving in the military.

Having pulled this trick once, I doubt the Israelis will be able to do it again. It was a clever stunt, but with essentially minor military impact. And I doubt the Israelis anticipated the destruction of the IL-20 by a Syrian SAM.

Lastly, I think it takes much more strength to resist the impulse to respond in kind to such provocations, which could easily lead to uncontrollable escalation. What's important is the end game, not these pin-pricks.

xLemming , Sep 18, 2018 10:53:35 AM | link
@64 cs

Nice hasbara you got there... jpost? bellingcat? Really?!
Why not quote Nikki Haley while you're at it...

Bandit , Sep 18, 2018 10:53:36 AM | link
@craigsummers

I am sorry to see others waste their precious time refuting your obvious bullshit propaganda with which you tainted this site. Considering you are a paid troll, you have nothing better to do with your time, whereas many worthy commentators on this site have actual jobs and, for the most part, credible, non-biased information to share. I hope that in the future, when one such as you comes to dump on this site, you will immediately be called out as a troll and left to mire in your own bs.

Mina , Sep 18, 2018 1