MH17 Shooting Down Bulletin No. 1: July 17- July 19, 2014

Among the best findings for the period were:

• It was Putin's missile! by Pepe Escobar (Asia Times, Jul 18, 2014)
• Article of Ray McGovern http://antiwar.com/blog/2014/07/19/facts-needed-on-malaysian-plane-shoot-down

  Raw Meat for Russia Bashing

  But the chance to further demonize Putin and Russia will be hard for Official Washington and its corporate-owned press to resist. The New York Times was quick out of the starting blocks on Friday with a lead editorial blaming the entire Ukraine conflict, including the Malaysian Airline tragedy, on Putin:

  “There is one man who can stop it – President Vladimir Putin of Russia, by telling the Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine to end their insurgency and by stopping the flow of money and heavy weapons to those groups.”

  Among Putin’s alleged offenses, according to the Times, has been his “failing to support a cease-fire and avoiding serious, internationally mediated negotiations” – though Putin has actually been one of principal advocates for both a cease-fire and a negotiated solution. It has been the U.S.-backed Poroshenko who canceled the previous cease-fire and has refused to negotiate with the ethnic Russian rebels until they essentially surrender.

  But the death of all 298 people onboard the Malaysian Airline flight, going from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, will surely provide plenty of fuel for the already roaring anti-Russian propaganda machine. Still, the U.S. press might pause to recall how it’s been manipulated by the U.S. government in the past, including three decades ago by the Reagan administration twisting the facts of the KAL-007 tragedy.

  In that case, a Soviet fighter jet shot down a Korean Air Line plane on Sept. 1, 1983, after it strayed hundreds of miles off course and penetrated some of the Soviet Union’s most sensitive airspace over military facilities in Kamchatka and Sakhalin Island.

  Over Sakhalin, KAL-007 was finally intercepted by a Soviet Sukhoi-15 fighter. The Soviet pilot tried to signal the plane to land, but the KAL pilots did not respond to the repeated warnings. Amid confusion about the plane’s identity — a U.S. spy plane had been in the vicinity hours earlier — Soviet ground control ordered the pilot to fire. He did, blasting the plane out of the sky and killing all 269 people on board.

  The Soviets soon realized they had made a horrendous mistake. U.S. intelligence also knew from sensitive intercepts that the tragedy had resulted from a blunder, not from a willful act of murder (much as on July 3, 1988, the USS Vincennes fired a missile that brought down an Iranian civilian airliner in the Persian Gulf, killing 290 people, an act which President Ronald Reagan explained as an “understandable accident”).

  But a Soviet admission of a tragic blunder regarding KAL-007 wasn’t good enough for the Reagan administration, which saw the incident as a propaganda windfall. At the time, the felt imperative in Washington was to blacken the Soviet Union in the cause of Cold War propaganda and to escalate tensions with Moscow.

  Falsifying the Case

  To make the very blackest case against Moscow, the Reagan administration suppressed the exculpatory evidence from the U.S. electronic intercepts. The U.S. mantra became “the deliberate downing of a civilian passenger plane.” Newsweek ran a cover emblazoned with the headline “Murder in the Sky.”

  “The Reagan administration’s spin machine began cranking up,” wrote Alvin A. Snyder, then-director of the U.S. Information Agency’s television and film division, in his 1995 book, Warriors of Disinformation.

  USIA Director Charles Z. Wick “ordered his top agency aides to form a special task force to devise ways of playing the story overseas. The objective, quite simply, was to heap as much abuse on the Soviet Union as possible,” Snyder recalled.

  Snyder noted that “the American media swallowed the U.S. government line without reservation. Said the venerable Ted Koppel on the ABC News ‘Nightline’ program: ‘This has been one of those occasions when there is very little difference between what is churned out by the U.S. government propaganda organs and by the commercial broadcasting networks.’”

  On Sept. 6, 1983, the Reagan administration went so far as to present a doctored transcript of the intercepts to the United Nations Security Council (a prelude to a similar false presentation two decades later by Secretary of State Colin Powell on Iraq’s alleged weapons of mass destruction).

  “The tape was supposed to run 50 minutes,” Snyder said about recorded Soviet intercepts. “But the tape segment we [at USIA] had ran only eight minutes and 32 seconds. … ‘Do I detect the fine hand of [Richard Nixon's secretary] Rosemary Woods here?’ I asked sarcastically.’”

  But Snyder had a job to do: producing the video that his superiors wanted. “The perception we wanted to convey was that the Soviet Union had cold-bloodedly carried out a barbaric act,” Snyder wrote.

  Only a decade later, when Snyder saw the complete transcripts — including the portions that the Reagan administration had hidden — would he fully realize how many of the central elements of the U.S. presentation were false.

  The Soviet fighter pilot apparently did believe he was pursuing a U.S. spy plane, according to the intercepts, and he was having trouble in the dark identifying the plane. At the instructions of Soviet ground controllers, the pilot had circled the KAL airliner and tilted his wings to force the aircraft down. The pilot said he fired warning shots, too. “This comment was also not on the tape we were provided,” Snyder wrote.

  It was clear to Snyder that in the pursuit of its Cold War aims, the Reagan administration had presented false accusations to the United Nations, as well as to the people of the United States and the world. To these Republicans, the ends of smearing the Soviets had justified the means of falsifying the historical record.

  In his book, Snyder acknowledged his role in the deception and drew an ironic lesson from the incident. The senior USIA official wrote, “The moral of the story is that all governments, including our own, lie when it suits their purposes. The key is to lie first.” [For more details on the KAL-007 deception and the history of U.S. trickery, see Consortiumnews.com’s “A Dodgy Dossier on Syrian War.”]

Another good find was The Guardian discussion were readers noted completly Orwellian character of early Western MSM coverage of the incident:

Rialbynot -> thebigchil, 19 July 2014 7:54am

Excellent technical analysis in the Süddeutsche this morning, pointing out that the Ukrainian transport plane downed on Monday had been hit by a "Strela-10" missile, which has a maximum altitude range of 3,500 metres.

MH17 was reportedly flying at 10,000 metres.

So it must have been hit by another weapon system, not hitherto used by the rebels. The likely culprit is the Buk missile system, used by both the Russian and Ukrainian armies

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/abschuss-des-fluges-mh-wer-kann-ein-flugzeug-in-zehn-kilometern-hoehe-treffen-1.2053301.

johnbok, 19 July 2014 7:33am

"obfuscation and denial". This was the response to the downing of a civilian airliner. Not the Malaysian one of course, where politicians are standing up and banging the drum of indignation. But the American response when they shot down the Iranian airliner that was coming in to land at Dubai. They gave repeated false information as to what went on in the ship responsible, showing the world the incompetence if their crew, as bad if not worse than the Ukrainian rebels. And having killed so many innocents, they refused to compensate anyone till dragged through the courts. On board were few westerners, but there were some British people. But not enough to cause a world wide furore as is happening now. Blatant double standards I think.

MacCosham , 19 July 2014 7:39am

anti-Kiev fighters

Is there any evidence that "anti-Kiev fighters" fired the rocket? Except for detritus extracted from the bowels of the internet? Is there even any hard evidence that they even have functional systems of a type having such capabilities?

We do know however that the Ukrainian army has several (Buk, S200, S300), with many positioned within range of the site the plane was hit (which would be much further to the west than the crash site).

We do also know that the plane fell very close to an area where 4-5 Ukrainian brigades are surrounded and facing annihilation, and could easily have fallen on the frontlines (see "access corridors").

We also see how quickly the United States started calling for "punishment" against the rebels and Russia.

Surely there is at the very least some doubt about means, motive and opportunity

HuffingHume -> MacCosham, 19 July 2014 12:48pm

4-5 Brigades close to facing annihilation? That's around 15000 troops? Which is about a one third of Ukrainian regulars,are surrounded by poorly equipped rebels who probably don't number 15000 themselves and so Ukraine shot down a civilian jet to allow them to escape. When the past 2 months have shown widespread rebel retreat, and this gets nearly 30 average recommendations. Jesus Christ...

Bamboo13, 19 July 2014 7:42am

This tragedy may also focus on the dangers of continuing globalisation. The assumption that the world becomes ever more interdependent may need re-assessing.
Nations need to be self reliant in food and energy where ever possible, and Germany abandoning Nuclear power for dependence on Russian Fossil Fuels is a case in point.
The market system is obviously the most efficient, but in times of crisis and conflict, trade sanctions and embargoes lead to retaliation, which in the extreme scenario, could see food and energy trading drastically reduced.
There are too many unknowns in allowing the status quo, and an acceptance that the world is now unstable and worsening should be driving any decisions on food and energy security.

BruceMullinger -> Bamboo13, 19 July 2014 9:01am

Globalisation is a means to accommodate corporate greed - it is not a force for good.

A world enriched by a diversity of nations, cultures and traditions is far more preferable to a world of conformity and stereotype.

As well as maintain its culture and traditions every country should have a bias to economic nationalism and strive for self-sufficiency and economic independence.

The pseudo-intellectual elites blame nationalism for most of the worlds ills when it is globalisation which is wreaking havoc on stability and national contentment.

PeterSchmidt , 19 July 2014 7:50am

This tragedy happened because we allowed the bombing of civilians in Europe. The IMF wanted Ukraine in one piece. The bombing and killing went on for months. We never paid any attention, as they were just 'pro Russian' rebels, not worthy of sympathy. They are people too who have been robbed of their president by Nuland and McCain and never felt home in the 'new' Ukraine. We could have scripted a different story line, the one we are doing now for the Kurds.

But Ukraine's wealth is in the east and we need it.

RoomSixteen -> Fromibizatothebroads , 19 July 2014 8:58am

If people are looking for sympathy, then why, from the outset, did these so-called rebels don ski masks all the time.

Most of them didn't, at least not the ones I saw on Youtube. Those who did, presumably did it for the same reason that many Maidan putschists did: they don't want their families bothered.

Popeyes, 19 July 2014 8:02am

If the plane was blown out of the sky it was either the separatists or the Ukrainian military. If it was the separatists with the help of Russia as the U.S are insisting, then what would be the motif? The U.S has already put sanctions on Russia, so why would they want to shoot down a passenger plane.

If it was the Ukrainian military, which is controlled by Washington and the CIA,then of course they have much to gain. Why is the US involved in Ukraine in the first place? The aim of Washington is to isolate Russia and they are already talking of more sanctions over this. For Washington this has nothing to do with the Ukraine this is all about a power struggle and Russia ultimately is the prize.

errovi -> Popeyes , 19 July 2014 8:35am

Exactly the democrats love this script:

The Grand Chessboard, American Primacy & Its Geostrategic Imperatives (1997) by ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI

The ideas expressed explain why US foreign policy under democratic administrations doesn't differ much from that of the Neocons.

Hydro -> Popeyes, 19 July 2014 2:26pm

No need to put down to conspiracy what can be explained by incompetence.

Whoever shot down the plane probably had no intention to shoot down a passing uninvolved airliner. They were thought they were shooting down a plane belonging to the other side.

The Ukrainian forces are the only ones with aircraft in the area, so it must have been someone who wanted to shoot down a Ukrainian plane.

Rainborough , 19 July 2014 8:26am

Putin is burdened with the image of a leader who is careless with the law and with others’ lives.

Unlike, of course, the USA and Israel.

ConfusedOfMayfair, 19 July 2014 8:29am

Very good reasoned article as always - by Mary Dejevsky.

I am shocked by the level of vitriol in the UK papers this morning.

I had thought - that the purpose of a thorough investigation was to establish the facts of the case.
However all the western press seems to know what happened already - which is akin to condemning A potential suspect as guilty before trial.

It is all very Orwellian.

"Early in life I have noticed that no event is ever correctly reported in a newspaper, but in Spain, for the first time, I saw newspaper reports which did not bear any relation to the facts, not even the relationship which is implied in an ordinary lie. I saw great battles reported where there had been no fighting, and complete silence where hundreds of men had been killed. I saw troops who had fought bravely denounced as cowards and traitors, and others who had never seen a shot fired hailed as the heroes of imaginary victories; and I saw newspapers in London retailing these lies and eager intellectuals building emotional superstructures over events that had never happened. I saw, in fact, history being written not in terms of what happened but of what ought to have happened according to various 'party lines'."

George Orwell, who fought in the Spanish Civil War.

errovi , 19 July 2014 8:31am

Biased article trying to draw a parallel between the USSR and Russia.

Author should ask herself why the NOTAM's allowed overflight of this area. That plane and about 400 each day were flying over a war zone with only a restriction below about 10 km (flight level 320).

http://blog.wandr.me/2014/07/notam-malaysia-airlines-mh17/

Immediately after the crash this restriction was increased to a total prohibition. Why was the national Ukrainian Civil Aviation Authority allowing that overflight knowing it lost aircraft also at the height of 6500m?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28299334

At 6500m you are clearly beyond the range of the Stinger or Strela type man portable systems. A more capable system must have been around.

So the Ukrainian Civil Aviation Authority must have been aware of the risk. Still only after the MH17 crash the restriction became total. Guess it is probably sheer ineptitude on behalf of the Ukrainian authorities but given CIA's direct involvement (Brennan's visit to Kiev seems to have started the army offensive in earnest) one might have to start looking for entrapment too. 

edwardrice -> errovi, 19 July 2014 9:04am

Entrapment? Very possible. But perhaps the Ukrainian Civil Aviation Authority, like the rest of Ukraine, is dysfunctional.

News of the Ukrainian military jet being shot down didn't get through -Kiev produces so much propaganda - maybe the Aviation Authority didn't know about these far reaching SAM.

Swan17 -> errovi , 19 July 2014 10:23am

I would also question the various airlines. If you have a warning that a particular area is unsafe then WHY fly over it? 400 flights (apparently) per day - either the area is unsafe or it is not, which?

JovialMerchant

Some serious warmongering going on at the moment.

Applying common sense, the most obvious explanation is that a rebel accidentally shot it down.

How many civilians has the Ukranian airforce killed in the last month?

edwardrice -> JovialMerchant , 19 July 2014 8:46am

I believe hundreds. But every civilian death is blamed on the " terrorists". Our western media backs Kiev in the civil war.

Beckow -> edwardrice , 19 July 2014 4:46pm

Being "invested", or wanting Ukraine, is not the same as having a strategy. Ukraine is divided, short of physically suppressing 10-20 million Russian speakers for a generation, or worse, there is no victory there.

Russia has already achieved its objective of taking Crimea back and stirring up passions among Russians in Ukraine. Civil war simply means that Ukraine will be either ungovernable or split. Especially since economic issues will soon dominate and Ukraine is literally bankrupt. US screwed up badly, they jumped the gun in February and destroyed their own plan. Now they are to Plan B: use the crisis to isolate Russia from Europe. That is unlikely to work in the long run either....

edwardrice -> Doggiedo, 19 July 2014 9:11am

Enough with the pychobabel? "Napoleon Syndrome?

The US and EU backed the coup in February. Russia simply reacted to the coup that saw in an anti-Russian, pro-NATO regime. Russia sees NATO 's expansion as a threat. The US, the empire of chaos, came knocking on Russia's door.

Beckow -> Doggiedo, 19 July 2014 4:52pm

You don't get out much do you? It is all grammar school stereotypes for you.

US started the "war" in February by overthrowing its elected government. All else is consequence management. What would happen if Russia had overthrown a government in EU and attempted to force that country to join its military alliance? Against the will of about half of its population?

Popeyes, 19 July 2014 8:58am

It was interesting watching Joe Biden theatrically declaring that the airliner was "blown out of the sky ",and that it was "no accident". How can he know this? and make such a statement before any investigations have been made. Washington's propaganda machine has started already, and I notice that the BBC are quick to follow. They will keep piling on the blame ramping up the rhetoric and of course it does not matter if there is no evidence at all'

Incidentally there was no such announcement when the U.S downed an Iranian airliner killing 290 civilians,and no sanctions on America.

Andrew :

Saker:

Starting from about noon today in the eastern US, the Russians have been sitting back with a wide Cheshire grin, as oppose to the suspicious panic they had yesterday.

Old Ez posted a very interesting link upthread - I would say by far this is the most interesting post on the thread.

This tells me two things. Yesterday, the Russians knew the plane had been shot down with a SAM launched in Donbass, but they weren't sure immediately who had done it since they knew that the DNR had Buk systems obtained from Ukraine that Russia may very well have helped make recently operable. Today they were able to confirm to their own satisfaction that it was the Ukrainian military that is the guilty party, whether out of sheer incompetence as with the Transsiberia shoot down, or out of conspiratorial malice, which is my suspicion and likely theirs.

So today we see Russia rejecting the possibility of the black boxes being delivered to them and saying Kiev should lead the investigation of this mess (in other words confidently sitting back knowing they have a Royal Flush in their own military data as to exactly what happened), blaming the Kiev MOD for having brought operational AA SAM systems in theater and pointedly suggesting they were the origin point of the shoot down, and threatening to back up NAF with military force in the event of further cross-border artillery provocations. Russia in other words is sitting back and rolling with the western punches, confident that no matter what the West and Ukraine try to spin and release as "the truth", they will be able to trump with leaks of their own intelligence data that show exactly who did it from within the Ukraine military.

Western newspapers relying on CIA/NSA/DIA sources have leaked the sort of "primitive" intelligence we might suspect the US to be capable of providing in this theater from satellites and whatever assets it has in Turkey, the Black Sea, and elsewhere nearby and correctly concluded that a missile was launched from the conflict area and not from Russia. If they have figured out more than that, such as the specific launch location or system used, they haven't yet let on, and I am not sure they would be able to get that specific..

Russia on the other hand not only has its own air defence radar and data systems immediately adjacent to the crash site as opposed to hundreds of miles away, but also has the benefit that the Ukrainian systems (both ATC and AA defense) were all formerly operationally linked with Russia's, with the likelihood that book door access capability still exists into their operating data, to say nothing of innumerable Russian agents with the SBU, military, and MIA able to provide human intelligence, as well as of course direct access to NAF intelligence gathering. It is therefore highly likely that Russia knows exactly where the missile was fired from, what Ukrainian unit did it, and has a voice recording of the fire command and related crosstalk from Ukrainian military coms and also from Kiev-Borispol and Dnipropetrovsk ATC.

In other words, Ukraine can spin all they want, but Russia is going to dribble the real truth out slowly unless Ukraine will just man up and explain what happened to a candid world.

19 July, 2014 06:34

Another good find was List of questions MSM try hard not to answer from valery-pavlov.livejournal.com

 

1. Course Boeing over Ukraine has changed. Who ordered this? Who in General has launched a war zone? Have you heard anything from Ukraine as an explanation for this? No, of course. But these explanations should be required.
   
2. As the wreckage of the plane were together in one heap? If the plane was shot at a height of 10 kilometers, the debris would fly for miles. And they fell in a heap.
   
3. How is it that many personal belongings of passengers was untouched? What new passports were demonstrated by "militias" (or whatever it was?) on camera in a few hours after the disaster?
   
4. Why shell hit the same spot twice? (the same airline within a few months of becoming a victim of a mysterious catastrophe).
   
5. Why there were no US (or one) American citizen on board ? This is among other things gives Americans reason to investigate the disaster. And this is when the investigation "softens" the guilt of the performers of the American side (if we are talking about the bombing of the CIA) - "its something we didn't blow up".
   
6. Ukraine claims that functionality of all air defense systems, which were captured by the militias during surrender of the Ukrainian military units at the end of June 2014, was destroyed by Ukrainian military. Russia denies that it supplied systems. Did militants really have has an operational Buk?
   
7. Is it possible for a layman to operate "Buk" air defense system? Because generally the aircraft should be clearly identified on the radar screen of such system. Well, for example, display units on old defense systems monitor the movement of all purposes, and it is clear that any target, flying from Europe, is 100% civilian aircraft.
   
8. If we assume that it was "militias" who launch the rocket, then to what group those men belong? Is there a chance that hit militias "mole", i.e. there was a planned sabotage? It is obvious that the attack is extremely disadvantageous for Russia, militias and extremely advantageous to the United States and the puppet Ukrainian government.
   
9. Was there in fact this "Spanish air controller"? Or this is dezo. Who is he, what is his name? Why Spanish? In Kiev, a lot of Spanish managers and difficult to identify?
   
10. Where are black boxes? What is their fate?
    
11. Did the militia has operational middle range air defense systems? Buk was captures in mid June. why it was not used before if it was operational? Why it was not use for defense of Donetsk from air bombardment?
    
12. What about professionals who can manage them? How militia can find them ? Did Russians send their staff to operate BUK. If so they are professionals and can't hit passenger airliners. They are not Americans or Ukrainians who have such a history.
    
13. How lame was the American satellite evidence that supposedly can read car registration plates? Why they do not provide us with the conclusive evidence? Where is this video of the system that launched the rocket? How can you determine from which zone Ukrainian or militia has deployed rocket complexes? Are distance between Ukrainian Missile systems and militia missile systems is measured kilometers or tens of kilometers?
    
14. Why is there no data from the Russian radars? Russian military were on high alert at this period and monitor the entire territory of the military conflict. Was monitoring suspended ? Hardly. Then where is it? Where the data is, for example, about the exact altitude of the liner at the moment of missile strike?
    
15. Militiamen who arrived at the scene previously said that putrid smell of some of the victims of the disaster was "stale". Was it really so?
    
16. Were Ukraine fighters in the air in the vicinity of the aircraft? That is, Ukranian standard raction "TSE ne mi" (it's not me) does not surprise anybody but those planes can't be hidden. Is there any evidence of present of Ukrainian fighter in the vicinity?
    
17. Why did Putin called Obama? What did they say? What the phone call pre-scheduled and on different topic ?
    
18. What happened with the discussion of the situation in the UN? Why they did not force Kiev to give all the evidence immediately.

Perhaps most questions have simple answers. But I would like to get answers to them.

NEWS CONTENTS

• 20140719 : The Department of Making Shit Up Welcomes New Rising Star Daniel Bilak ( Jul 19, 2014 , marknesop.wordpress.com )
• 20140719 : Vladimir Putin is given one last chance as world fury mounts over flight MH17 by Shaun Walker ( Vladimir Putin is given 'one last chance' as world fury mounts over flight MH17, Jul 19, 2014 )
• 20140719 : It was Putins missile! by Pepe Escobar ( Jul 18, 2014 , Asia Times )
• 20140719 : Rescuers Recover Second Black Box From Malaysia Airlines Crash in East Ukraine World ( July 18, 2014 , RIA Novosti )
• 20140719 : List of questions MSM try hard not to answer ( valery-pavlov.livejournal.com )
• 20140719 : Moscow notes large number of questions to Kiev about Buk systems in Boeing accident ( July 19, 2014 , en.itar-tass.com )
• 20140719 : Plane Down In Ukraine - Facts? Who Needs Facts? ( moonofalabama.org )
• 20140719 : Memories, recollections, guesses and speculations about MH17 ( Jul 18, 2014 , vineyardsaker.blogspot.com )
• 20140719 : MH17 makes the situation in Ukraine an American crisis and an EU catastrophe ( Spectator Blogs )
• 20140719 : MH17: Ukraine claims compelling evidence of Russian involvement - live updates by Chris Johnston ( MH17: Ukraine claims 'compelling evidence' of Russian involvement - live updates, Jul 19, 2014 )
• 20140718 : No Way To Slow Down – America's Foreign-Policy Dilemma ( marknesop.wordpress.com )
• 20140718 : Ukraines Security Service Has Confiscated Air Traffic Control Recordings With Malaysian Jet ( Zero Hedge )
• 20140718 : The Final Moments Of Flight MH-17 The Russian Side Of The Story ( Zero Hedge )
• 20140718 : Was Ukraine's Ministry of Interior behind the Downing of Malaysian Airlines MH17 by Prof Michel Chossudovsky ( July 18, 2014 , Global Research )
• 20140718 : Sifting through the wreckage of MH17, searching for sense amid the horror by Jonathan Freedland ( The Guardian )
• 20140718 : The Vineyard of the Saker Evidence Continues to Emerge ( The Vineyard of the Saker )
• 20140718 : Kiev deployed powerful anti-air systems to E. Ukraine ahead of the Malaysian plane crash ( July 17, 2014 , RT News )
• 20140717 : Missile destroys Malaysia Airlines plane over Ukraine, killing 298 people ( The Guardian )
• 20140717 : Who shot down Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 ( Who shot down Malaysian Airlines flight MH17, Jul 17, 2014 )

Old News ;-)

[Jul 19, 2014] The Department of Making Shit Up Welcomes New Rising Star Daniel Bilak

Jul 19, 2014 | marknesop.wordpress.com

Let me refresh your memory, Dan.

It was the west, with its media road show and fog machine, that hyped the Maidan as a huge groundswell of popular opinion, a "people's uprising", even though it attracted far smaller crowds than the Orange Revolution. It was the west who whipped the protests into violence, shouting loudly that Yanukovych must get his police off the streets and let the peaceful protesters have their way even as they were heaving bricks and gasoline bombs and seizing control of public buildings. Here's what EU Foreign Policy Chief Ashton had to say about the heroic crowd on the Maidan: "I was among you on Maidan in the evening and was impressed by the determination of Ukrainians demonstrating for the European perspective of their country". Here's what she said about Yanukovych's brutality toward protesters: "Dialogue with political forces and society and the use of arguments is always better than the argument of force." Things changed a little bit once the EU and USA maneuvered Poroshenko into the driver's seat, and those in the east who did not want to recognize his dominion over them were not protesters; no, Lady Ashton and her doppelgänger in physical ugliness, U.S, Secretary of State John Kerry agreed that they were "pro-Russian separatists", while Ukraine – which had already moved against them in full military strength in direct contravention of the Ukrainian constitution and international law – had "shown remarkable restraint". Fuck dialogue and the use of arguments: force rocks!! Around the same time, the Estonian Foreign Minister confided to Ashton suspicions that the snipers who had indiscriminately shot both protesters and police from rooftops around Maidan had acted on the behest of the Ukrainian opposition, to sort of spur things along to mindless rioting. Ashton's response will go down in history: "I think we do want to investigate. I mean, I didn't pick that up, that's interesting. Gosh." Investigation of the matter since? Zip. Zero. Nothing. Dropped like a hot stone. Apparently upon further examination, it was all the way across town from "interesting".

Mr. Bilak apparently agrees with the might-makes-right approach; he reserved especial disappointment for Germany's Angela Merkel, for her statement that "Ukraine should start immediate bilateral negotiations with the terrorists rampaging through the Donbas."

Said terrorist body consisting, according to Mr. Bilak, of "marauding, fragmented bands of 10,000 Chechen fighters and Russian mercenaries, Donbas criminals, drug addicts, and other marginals". What a long, rough way we have come from the nobility of "Ukrainians demonstrating for the European perspective of their country". It must be disappointing for a professional military force made up of genetically-acceptable Ukrainians to get its ass kicked by drug addicts, criminals and marginals. Although perhaps he is not exactly sure of the composition of the opposing force, since he offers no evidence whatsoever to support his allegations, and all evidence offered thus far of state-sponsored Russian participation has been discredited. No use holding talks, anyway, says Bilak, with terrorists who are too busy shooting up the towns they hold to negotiate. The deliberate obfuscation and ignorance of this statement is breathtaking; there is no evidence that any property damage at all accrues to the federalists, while it is the indiscriminate shelling by the Ukrainian army which has reduced towns like Slaviyansk to rubble.

But beneath the all-seeing Eye Of Bilak, the situation for the bloodthirsty saboteurs of Ukraine's destiny is simple; when the glorious forces of the Unified Ukraine prevail, the Ukrainians among the defenders will be tried as terrorists, while the Russians fleeing for the safety of their evil empire will be shot by Russian border guards.

But it didn't have to be this way. Putin could stop the entire conflict in its tracks, just by waving his evil talon. This would "cut off the flow of funds, tanks, weapons and mercenaries from Russia and to secure his side of the Ukrainian-Russian border."

But he won't do that unless the EU stops dicking around and applies some serious sanctions.

As if that were not enough rubbish, the garbage truck and the road completely part company at this point. According to Mr. Bilak, "On Monday, Ukraine claimed a Russian fighter jet or one of Russia's new rockets shot down a Ukrainian air force plane from inside Russian territory (based on the fact that no side on Ukraine's territory has weaponry that could reach that height)."

Sure you want to stick with that story, Daniel? Because the downing yesterday of MH-17 was responded to by Samantha Power at the UN with a storm of frothy and rabid invective which included the contention that according to the official United States position, the Ukrainian "pro-Russian separatists" have vehicle-mounted air defence missile systems practically falling out their ass – among them the SA-11 Buk. The aircraft shot down on Monday was an AN-26, at an altitude of 21,000 ft. MH-17 was following an airlane at 33,000 ft; 12,000 ft higher than the AN-26, although the international community is sure it was shot down by the "pro-Russia separatists" using Russian-supplied weaponry. Ukraine has the Buk as well, of course, but Ukraine also said at one time that the rebels did not have any. The plane crashed far enough from the Russian border that it would have been out of range of a Buk fired from Russia at the moment it was hit. So…what happened? There is absolutely no doubt that Ukraine has a weapon which could reach that altitude, the aircraft would have been out of range from Russia, and you just got done saying the "pro-Russia separatists" didn't have a weapon which could reach that high. That only leaves one contender.

We'll let you off that one, Daniel, because you plainly know as much about gaseous compounds on Venus as you do about air defense systems. And that ignorance is just as plainly not confined simply to air defense systems, as he goes on in the next paragraph to blabber that Russian tanks and artillery poured over the border this past weekend vand advanced three kilometers into Ukraine. That sounds like an invasion to me. Got any pictures? Nope. Any evidence at all? Nope. Just alarmist twaddle to stir up the red-meat crowd.

Who the hell is Daniel Bilak, you may be wondering. As was I. According to the one-line bio at the bottom of this tapestry of mendacious blather, he is "an advisor to the Governor of Donetsk Oblast". The absentee governor, that'd be, who was appointed by Kiev to run the restive region and has since fled after being driven out. But that's not the end of the Daniel Bilak story; no, indeed. He's also the managing partner at CMS Cameron McKenna LLC in Kiev, and has extensive experience advising clients on legal risk in international oil and gas development, among other things. Between 1995 and 2006 he was a senior United Nations Development Program governance expert, and has also been General Counsel for Emtec, a Canadian high-tech. Except for his rudimentary schooling, he was educated in Canada at McGill University, Montreal. He is an internationalist who is about as Ukrainian as a hockey stick. I don't know where he learned to make up shit like that, but I devoutly hope it was not Montreal.

Here's a tip, Dan, for free. Stick to lying about how many women you've slept with and how big the fish you catch are. Men at least will be willing to let those pass without comment, because everybody lies about those.

[Jul 19, 2014] Vladimir Putin is given 'one last chance' as world fury mounts over flight MH17 by Shaun Walker

It is interesting to watch the work of Shaun Walter, Guardian presstitute -- trench solder of information war that obeys immoral orders from superiors committing what can be called "information war crimes agaist humanity"...

Global leaders rounded on Vladimir Putin on Saturday night as armed separatists continued to block international inspectors attempting to identify and repatriate bodies at the Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash site in eastern Ukraine.

Amid reports that pro-Russia rebels accused of shooting down the plane had removed corpses themselves and were looting credit cards and other possessions belonging to some of the 298 victims, Mark Rutte, the Dutch prime minister, said that Putin had "one last chance to show he means to help [rescuers recover the bodies]".

Rutte vented his anger following what he called a "very intense" conversation with the Russian president. Referring to allegations that bodies of the passengers, including 193 Dutch nationals, were being treated with contempt and allowed to rot at the scene, he said: "I was shocked at the pictures of utterly disrespectful behaviour at this tragic spot. It's revolting."

[Jul 19, 2014] It was Putin's missile! by Pepe Escobar

The first real attempt to investigate the shooing down. The article also aske the most important question cue bono?

Jul 18, 2014 | Asia Times

And here's the spin war verdict: the current Malaysia Airlines tragedy - the second in four months - is "terrorism" perpetrated by "pro-Russian separatists", armed by Russia, and Vladimir Putin is the main culprit. End of story. Anyone who believes otherwise, shut up.

Why? Because the CIA said so. Because Hillary "We came, we saw, he died" Clinton said so. Because batshit crazy Samantha "R2P" Power said so - thundering at the UN, everything duly printed by the neo-con infested Washington Post. [1]

Because Anglo-American corporate media - from CNN to Fox (who tried to buy Time Warner, which owns CNN) - said so. Because the President of the United States (POTUS) said so. And mostly because Kiev had vociferously said so in the first place.

Right off the bat they were all lined up - the invariably hysterical reams of "experts" of the "US intelligence community" literally foaming at their palatial mouths at "evil" Russia and "evil" Putin; intel "experts" who could not identify a convoy of gleaming white Toyotas crossing the Iraqi desert to take Mosul. And yet they have already sentenced they don't need to look any further, instantly solving the MH17 riddle.

It doesn't matter that President Putin has stressed the MH17 tragedy must be investigated objectively. And "objectively" certainly does not mean that fictional "international community" notion construed by Washington - the usual congregation of pliable vassals/patsies.

And what about Carlos?

A simple search at reveals that MH17 was in fact diverted 200 kilometers north from the usual flight path taken by Malaysia Airlines in the previous days - and plunged right in the middle of a war zone. Why? What sort of communication MH17 received from Kiev air control tower?

Kiev has been mute about it. Yet the answer would be simple, had Kiev released the Air Traffic Control recording of the tower talking to flight MH17; Malaysia did it after flight MH370 disappeared forever.

It won't happen; SBU security confiscated it. So much for getting an undoctored explanation on why MH17 was off its path, and what the pilots saw and said before the explosion.

The Russian Defense Ministry, for its part, has confirmed that a Kiev-controlled Buk anti-aircraft missile battery was operational near the MH17's crash. Kiev has deployed several batteries of Buk surface-to-air missile systems with at least 27 launchers; these are all perfectly capable of bringing down jets flying at 33,000 ft.

Radiation from a battery's Kupol radar, deployed as part of a Buk-M1 battery near Styla (a village some 30km south of Donetsk) was detected by the Russian military. According to the ministry, the radar could be providing tracking information to another battery which was at a firing distance from MH17's flight path. The tracking radar range on the Buk system is a maximum of 50 miles. MH17 was flying at 500 mph. So assuming the "rebels" had an operational Buk and did it, they would have had not more than five minutes to scan all the skies above, all possible altitudes, and then lock on. By then they would have known that a cargo plane could not possibly be flying that high. For evidence supporting the possibility of a false flag, check here.

And then there's the curiouser and curiouser story of Carlos, the Spanish air traffic controller working at Kiev's tower, who was following MH17 in real time. For some Carlos is legit - not a cipher; for others, he's never even worked in Ukraine. Anyway he tweeted like mad. His account - not accidentally - has been shut down, and he has disappeared; his friends are now desperately looking for him. I managed to read all his tweets in Spanish when the account was still online - and now copies and an English translation are available.

These are some of his crucial tweets:

• "The B777 was escorted by 2 Ukrainian fighter jets minutes before disappearing from radar (5.48 pm)"
• "If the Kiev authorities want to admit the truth 2 fighter jets were flying very close a few minutes before the incident but did not shoot down the airliner (5.54)"
• "As soon as the Malaysia Airlines B777 disappeared the Kiev military authority informed us of the shooting down. How did they know? (6.00)"
• "Everything has been recorded on radar. For those that don't believe it, it was taken down by Kiev; we know that here (in traffic control) and the military air traffic control know it too (7.14)"
• "The Ministry of the Interior did know that there were fighter aircraft in the area, but the Ministry of Defense didn't. (7.15)"
• "The military confirm that it was Ukraine, but it is not known where the order came from. (7.31)"

Carlos's assessment (a partial compilation of his tweets is collected here http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/ ): the missile was fired by the Ukraine military under orders of the Ministry of Interior - NOT the Ministry of Defense. Security matters at the Ministry of the Interior happen to be under Andriy Parubiy, who was closely working alongside US neo-cons and Banderastan neo-nazis on Maidan.

Assuming Carlos is legit, the assessment makes sense. The Ukrainian military are divided between Chocolate king President Petro Poroshenko - who would like a détente with Russia essentially to advance his shady business interests - and Saint Yulia Timoshenko, who's on the record advocating genocide of ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine. US neo-cons and US "military advisers" on the ground are proverbially hedging their bets, supporting both the Poroshenko and Timoshenko factions.

So who profits?

The key question remains, of course, cui bono? Only the terminally brain dead believe shooting a passenger jet benefits the federalists in Eastern Ukraine, not to mention the Kremlin.

As for Kiev, they'd have the means, the motive and the window of opportunity to pull it off - especially after Kiev's militias have been effectively routed, and were in retreat, in the Donbass; and this after Kiev remained dead set on attacking and bombing the population of Eastern Ukraine even from above. No wonder the federalists had to defend themselves.

And then there's the suspicious timing. The MH17 tragedy happened two days after the BRICS announced an antidote to the IMF and the World Bank, bypassing the US dollar. And just as Israel "cautiously" advances its new invasion/slow motion ethnic cleansing of Gaza. Malaysia, by the way, is the seat of the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission, which has found Israel guilty of crimes against humanity.

Washington, of course, does profit. What the Empire of Chaos gets in this case is a ceasefire (so the disorganized, battered Kiev militias may be resupplied); the branding of Eastern Ukrainians as de facto "terrorists" (as Kiev, Dick Cheney-style, always wanted); and unlimited mud thrown over Russia and Putin in particular until Kingdom Come. Not bad for a few minutes' work. As for NATO, that's Christmas in July.

From now on, it all depends on Russian intelligence. They have been surveying/tracking everything that happens in Ukraine 24/7. In the next 72 hours, after poring over a lot of tracking data, using telemetry, radar and satellite tracking, they will know which type of missile was launched, where from, and even produce communications from the battery that launched it. And they will have access to forensic evidence.

Unlike Washington - who already knows everything, with no evidence whatsoever (remember 9/11?) - Moscow will take its time to know the basic journalistic facts of what, where, and who, and engage on proving the truth and/or disproving Washington's spin.

The historical record shows Washington simply won't release data if it points to a missile coming from its Kiev vassals. The data may even point to a bomb planted on MH17, or mechanical failure - although that's unlikely. If this was a terrible mistake by the Novorossiya rebels, Moscow will have to reluctantly admit it. If Kiev did it, the revelation will be instantaneous. Anyway we already know the hysterical Western response, no matter what; Russia is to blame.

Putin is more than correct when he stressed this tragedy would not have happened if Poroshenko had agreed to extend a cease-fire, as Merkel, Hollande and Putin tried to convince him in late June. At a minimum, Kiev is already guilty because they are responsible for safe passage of flights in the airspace they - theoretically - control.

But all that is already forgotten in the fog of war, tragedy and hype. As for Washington's hysterical claims of credibility, I leave you with just one number: Iran Air 655.

Notes:
1. Missile Downs Malaysia Airlines Plane Over Ukraine Killing 298, Kiew Blames Rebels, Washington Post, July 18, 2014.

Pepe Escobar is the author of Globalistan: How the Globalized World is Dissolving into Liquid War (Nimble Books, 2007), Red Zone Blues: a snapshot of Baghdad during the surge (Nimble Books, 2007), and Obama does Globalistan (Nimble Books, 2009).

He may be reached at [email protected].

(Copyright 2014 Asia Times Online (Holdings) Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.)

[Jul 19, 2014] Rescuers Recover Second Black Box From Malaysia Airlines Crash in East Ukraine World

July 18, 2014 | RIA Novosti

Rescue workers have recovered the second black box from the Malaysian Airlines passenger airplane that crashed in eastern Ukraine, Reuters reported citing an eyewitness Friday.

Earlier a spokesman from the Vostok Battalion said that they had found several objects that could be black boxes near the town of Torez where the aircraft crashed.

A Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777 flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur crashed near the town of Torez in the Donetsk Region on Thursday. There were 283 passengers and 15 crew members on board, none of them survived.

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said earlier on Friday one flight recorder from the plane had allegedly been found by local militia who might take it to Russia in an attempt to "hide all traces."

Kiev blamed independence supporters in the turbulent Donetsk region for downing the passenger plane with a surface-to-air missile. Militia forces said they had no missile systems that could hit a target flying at an altitude of 10,000 meters.

Ukraine has repeatedly accused Russia of supplying arms to resistance forces in the east of Ukraine, although there has been no evidence to this effect.

Ukrainian authorities and Malaysia Airlines are investigating the incident.

[Jul 19, 2014] List of questions MSM try hard not to answer

MSM crooks should tremble reading those question from a regular blogger ;-)

valery-pavlov.livejournal.com

1. Course Boeing over Ukraine has changed. Who ordered this? Who in General has launched a war zone? Have you heard anything from Ukraine as an explanation for this? No, of course. But these explanations should be required.
   
2. As the wreckage of the plane were together in one heap? If the plane was shot at a height of 10 kilometers, the debris would fly for miles. And they fell in a heap.
   
3. How is it that many personal belongings of passengers was untouched? What new passports were demonstrated by "militias" (or whatever it was?) on camera in a few hours after the disaster?
   
4. Why shell hit the same spot twice? (the same airline within a few months of becoming a victim of a mysterious catastrophe).
   
5. Why there were no US (or one) American citizen on board ? This is among other things gives Americans reason to investigate the disaster. And this is when the investigation "softens" the guilt of the performers of the American side (if we are talking about the bombing of the CIA) - "its something we didn't blow up".
   
6. Ukraine claims that functionality of all air defense systems, which were captured by the militias during surrender of the Ukrainian military units at the end of June 2014, was destroyed by Ukrainian military. Russia denies that it supplied systems. Did militants really have has an operational Buk?
   
7. Is it possible for a layman to operate "Buk" air defense system? Because generally the aircraft should be clearly identified on the radar screen of such system. Well, for example, display units on old defense systems monitor the movement of all purposes, and it is clear that any target, flying from Europe, is 100% civilian aircraft.
   
8. If we assume that it was "militias" who launch the rocket, then to what group those men belong? Is there a chance that hit militias "mole", i.e. there was a planned sabotage? It is obvious that the attack is extremely disadvantageous for Russia, militias and extremely advantageous to the United States and the puppet Ukrainian government.
   
9. Was there in fact this "Spanish air controller"? Or this is dezo. Who is he, what is his name? Why Spanish? In Kiev, a lot of Spanish managers and difficult to identify?
   
10. Where are black boxes? What is their fate?
    
11. Did the militia has operational middle range air defense systems? Buk was captures in mid June. why it was not used before if it was operational? Why it was not use for defense of Donetsk from air bombardment?
    
12. What about professionals who can manage them? How militia can find them ? Did Russians send their staff to operate BUK. If so they are professionals and can't hit passenger airliners. They are not Americans or Ukrainians who have such a history.
    
13. How lame was the American satellite evidence that supposedly can read car registration plates? Why they do not provide us with the conclusive evidence? Where is this video of the system that launched the rocket? How can you determine from which zone Ukrainian or militia has deployed rocket complexes? Are distance between Ukrainian Missile systems and militia missile systems is measured kilometers or tens of kilometers?
    
14. Why is there no data from the Russian radars? Russian military were on high alert at this period and monitor the entire territory of the military conflict. Was monitoring suspended ? Hardly. Then where is it? Where the data is, for example, about the exact altitude of the liner at the moment of missile strike?
    
15. Militiamen who arrived at the scene previously said that putrid smell of some of the victims of the disaster was "stale". Was it really so?
    
16. Were Ukraine fighters in the air in the vicinity of the aircraft? That is, Ukranian standard raction "TSE ne mi" (it's not me) does not surprise anybody but those planes can't be hidden. Is there any evidence of present of Ukrainian fighter in the vicinity?
    
17. Why did Putin called Obama? What did they say? What the phone call pre-scheduled and on different topic ?
    
18. What happened with the discussion of the situation in the UN? Why they did not force Kiev to give all the evidence immediately.

Perhaps most questions have simple answers. But I would like to get answers to them.

[Jul 19, 2014] Moscow notes large number of questions to Kiev about Buk systems in Boeing accident

July 19, 2014 | en.itar-tass.com

Moscow notes large number of questions to Kiev about Buk systems in Boeing accident

"The Ukrainian authorities are busy concocting all kinds of nonsense and insinuations", the source in Kremlin said

MOSCOW, July 19, 17:34 /ITAR-TASS/. There are too many questions to the Ukrainian authorities about their Buk air defense systems and warplanes in the area of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777 jetliner crash in Ukraine, a source in the Russian power structures said on Saturday, July 19.

"Unfortunately, instead of taking concrete measures to investigate the causes of the accident, specifically to ensure the security of evidence, the Ukrainian authorities, primarily the Security Council, are busy concocting all kinds of nonsense and insinuations, putting forth sweeping accusations and unconfirmed leads which are senseless to comment on," the source said.

He noted that "there are already too many questions" to the Ukrainian authorities "about their Buks and warplanes in the area of the accident".

"They must begin a large-scale investigation of all activities of the Air Force, the National Guard and other armed structures operating in Ukraine, which are countless and which are subordinated to no one. There are lots of things to investigate there," the source said.

[Jul 19, 2014] Plane Down In Ukraine - Facts? Who Needs Facts?

moonofalabama.org

A Malaysian Boeing 777 with 295 people on board crashed today near Shakhtarsk 50 kilometer east of Donetsk, Ukraine.

The appropriate key for "western" journalist to press now is this one.

Over the now coming propaganda shit-storm the recent defeat of the coup-government troops will likely stay unreported.

chet380 Jul 17, 2014 1:19:25 PM

"He denied that the rebels possess the SA-17 Buk air-defense as Kiev alleges.

However, the Associated Press reported that a similar launcher was seen by the agency's journalists near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne earlier Thursday. The Buk missile system can fire missiles up to an altitude of 22,000 meters (72,000 feet), AP said."

This report will be repeated ad nauseum. pinning the blame on the Donbass forces.

[Jul 19, 2014] Memories, recollections, guesses and speculations about MH17

Jul 18, 2014 | vineyardsaker.blogspot.com

Intro and caveat

I think that any analysis of the events surrounding the downing of MH17 should begin with the following admission: no matter what, the AngloZionists will blame Russia. Just like 9/11, there is no way, no amount of evidence, which would affect the unanimous chorus of Imperial doubleplusgoodthinkers in their conclusion that obviously it could only have been "the Russians". So don't expect to come across The Proof which will prove that the Empire is lying because if 9/11 proved anything it is that even hard, undeniable truth can be easily ignored by the elites and their media.

Second, I have to begin my "kind of analysis" with the following disclaimer: my information on air defense issues is about 25-30 years old which means that not only could my memory fail me, but things might have changed a great deal since I last was exposed to them. Finally, the place from which I observed air defense happening was a rather peculiar one: from a underground army command center's air defense room which included a live fused (civilian+military) image of all the air traffic over an entire continent. I never got anywhere near a SAM site in my life, and I sure have never seen one being operated. Still, there are a few things which I know which might be relevant to this case.

If I got something wrong, or if things have recently changed, PLEASE CORRECT ME.

How air defense normally works

The control of airspace is done by two completely different networks: a civilian and a military one. The civilian one is the one people think of when they hear ATC (air traffic control). These are the folks who manage flight plans, who talk to pilots on different altitudes, who track the aircraft during the flight and make sure that there is enough distance between them. Depending on an airplane's altitude and what it is doing, it remains in contact with different ATCs but they all work together. One more thing: the radars used by civilian ATC are very primitive, all they can "see" is a bearing. What helps them is that all aircraft have a so-called "transponder" to transmit a special message which indicates their ID, speed, altitude and course. The ATC then superimposes that info on his screen to get a pretty accurate idea of what the aircraft is doing. The important thing about all this is that the military is normally patched straight into that data and that it can use it to supplement the data military radars acquire by themselves. In other words, a military air defense network "sees" and "knows" everything that a civilians ATC knows and sees.

The task of military air defenses is dramatically different from the civilians ATC: the military expects to deal with aircraft who will do their utmost to remain undetected and once detected, the military air defense network has to figure out a way to hopefully shoot-down the enemy aircraft. As a result, the kind of technology used by the military is very different.

The first "layer" of a military air defense network will be long range detection radars. Their task is to try to detect an airborne target as far as possible. Although one type of radar can do this alone, typically data from different radars (including airborne ones) is fused to create a single picture. Already at this point the air defense command post will be patched in into the civilians ATC and it will have all the flight plans, airline names, aircraft types and expected flight routes. The air defense command post's first task is to separate civilians (considered neutral) from possible hostiles. These 99% of flights are routine and regular, the folks in charge have a very good idea of what a normal sky looks like, they see the scheduled civilians aircraft doing their thing and they easily track them. Some military radars even have the capability to detect the kind of aircraft they are seeing on their radar simply by analyzing the radar signal bounced back (typically by the aircraft's engine). If a target is ambiguous, the military can use a very different type of radar to track that target: this target acquisition radar will operate on a different frequency, it will have a much narrower beam, and it will provide the operator with much more info about the aircraft even if the aircraft does not have a working transponder (which would be most unusual for a civilian airliner). Again, modern armed forces have the means to fuse the data from any different radar types (including airborne radars) to calculate a solution to identify and track a target. The next step is the send a special signal, like a password, to check if aircraft might not be one of your own. Civilian aircraft are not capable of this kind if "electronic handshake". Finally, if the military air defense command post believes that the target his hostile, it selects the best radar and missile combination to engage the target. Typically, this is done yet again by a highly specialized radar which sends a burst of energy to the target which is reflected by the airborne target and which is then caught either by a ground-based radar or even by the missile itself (that is called TVM track-via-missile) which then can guide itself to the target without emitting any signal (alternatively, the missile can use his own active guidance system which sends and receives radar signals). Advanced air defense networks, such as Russia's, can automatically chose the best radar for each task, the missile most likely to hit, the number of missiles needed for the task, the most threatening target, the mode of engagement, etc. These systems are highly integrated and highly automated, which also means that they are much safer than more primitive systems (more about that later). They are also highly redundant which in practical terms means that if, say, in an ideal environment a missile system like the Buk M1 is just one part of a much bigger network of systems, it can also operate almost autonomously if needed (again, more about that later). Now we need to look at the "who had what" on the day of the tragedy. First, let's look at

The Russikies and their capabilities.

While, obviously, they don't share with me the details of their moves, it is a pretty safe guess to say that, especially considering the war going on right across the border, the Russians literally had it all on that day: civilians radars, of course, but also long range radars (ground based and airborne), lots of advanced advanced surveillance (long range detection) radars, lots of tracking and fire control radars numerous radio and signal interception stations. Since all the data from this integrated network of systems could be fused at the higher level command posts we can safely assume that the Russian side had something like "20/20 radar vision": just about as good as it can get. There is no way the Russian shot down this aircraft by mistake.

What about the Ukrainians?

Here the reality is dramatically different: almost all of the Ukrainian air defense equipment is hopelessly outdated, far in excess of its normal shelf life. The Ukie air defense systems have not trained with live firing for dacades. Unlike the Russian who use contracted professionals on all crucial levels, the Ukies are known to be using conscripts simply due to a lack of funds. To illustrate the bloodly mess the Ukie air defenses are, it is enough to recall here how gross incompetence, mismanagement and outdated equipment resulted in the downing of the Siberian Airlines civilian aircraft in 2001. Since then, things in the Ukie air defenses have only gotten much worse. Still, the Ukies did have an ATC which at the very least should have reported that a civilian airline had a flight plan which would follow the points XYZ. I just cannot imagine a Ukie officer giving the order to shoot at an aircraft without checking for the available flight plans. Also, as far as I know, nobody ever reported that the transponder on the aircraft did not work and, if so, then that means that the Ukie air defense crew should have been receiving a clear signal identifying the aircraft. Let me add here that you can purchase special receivers and antennas which can receive transponder signals on the market and that they are comparatively cheap (1000 bucks range I think). Lastly, but still an option, a Ukie air defense operator could have simply lifted the phone, called the ATC and asked who such and such aircraft was. And even without that: when you see an aircraft flying right around 550 knots at 10'000m in a straight line in a civilian air traffic corridor, you can kinda guess that this is not a military aircraft on a bombing run. So regardless of the state of disrepair of the Ukie air defense forces, there is just no way that they could have mistaken this airliner for a Russian military jet flying on a combat mission. Oh, and did I mention MH17 was flying on west to east course, not from Russia, but towards Russia? Bottom line here for me is this: there is no way the Ukies could have shot down this aircraft by mistake.

The Novorussians now

Well, here again we truly have a dramatically different picture emerging. First, the Novorussians have no ATC. Second, 99% of their air defense systems are either MANPADs (man portable) or heavy machine guns. I did see footage of some kind of air defense radar and command post, but I suspect that this was simply one surveillance radar left by the Ukies. No data fusion here, no integrated air defense network, no long range missiles. Except for the few Buk M-1s which they did get as a trophy when they took control a Ukie base a month or so ago. The fact is that I am still unsure whether they really got anything operable systems at all (the Ukies claim that their soldiers had disabled them, but that might not be true). But we probably have to assume that they got their hands on a least one operational vehicle with its own surveillance radar, engagement radar and missiles. As I mentioned earlier, modern states would integrate the Buk into a full air defense network, but since in war time this might not be possible, it is possible for the Buk to detect, acquire and engage a target all by itself. Frankly, I find it very unlikely that the systems the Novorussians got their hands on would have been operational. I find it even more unlikely that they would also have the people to operate them. Still, just to cover our bases, we have to assume that with Russian aid these systems could have been more or less fixed, and that a crew could also have been sent from Russia. Unlikely? Far fetched? Yes. But, alas, not impossible.

Still, there is the flight profile issue. The real threat for Novorussians comes from close air support (low level) and from reconnaissance (medium level) aircraft. Not those flying at 10'000 meters. Also, a Boeing 777 is much larger than an An-26, Su-25, Su-24 or even Su-27. Also, ask yourself, IF you had such a capable and advanced air defense system as the Buk, would you waste it on a poorly identified target? Probably not. Still, I think that at least in theory the Nororussians could have shot down this aircraft. Now let's look at the famous

Cui bono?

Well here at least the reply is unambiguous: only the junta in Kiev could have benefited from this tragedy. For the Russians and the Novorussians, this is something between a real pain and a disaster. Just when the Novorussians were winning without any overt help from Moscow and just when Moscow was gradually successful in denouncing the human costs of Poroshenko's murderous policies - suddenly the entire planet focuses just on one downed aircraft and the imperial corporate media blames it all on Russia. As for Poroshenko, this disaster is God-sent: not only has everybody forgotten that much promised "surprise" turned out to be a disaster, he can now kill scores of Novorussians with no risks of that being reported in the corporate media. Not only that, but that gives the Ukies a golden excuse to ask for ""protection" from their "aggressive and threatening neighbor". Again, the only party who can benefit from this disaster is the junta. So, in summary, we have this list of candidates:

1) A deliberate or mistaken Russian attack: superlatively unlikely
2) A mistaken Ukrainian attack: most unlikely
3) A deliberate Ukrainian attack: most likely
4) A mistaken Novorussian attack: possible
5) A deliberate Novorussian attack: most unlikely

I don't know about you, but to me #3 is the one blinking red.

Now let's look at some of the crazy rumors which we have heard today.

a) one or two Ukie military aircraft shadowing MH17 before it was shot down.
b) at least one parachute after MH17 was shot down.
c) an air-to-air attack.
d) an attempt as shooting down Putin's aircraft.

I don't know if any of these above are true, but what I do notice is that all of them, if true, only 'fit' scenario #3: a deliberate Ukie attack. Nobody claimed that MH17 was shadowed by Russian fighters and the Novorussians don't have any anyway (they only have one Su-25). If somebody was shot down (the parachutes) then it was most definitely not a Russian Air Force aircraft. Ditto for an air-to-air attack. As for shooting down Putin's aircraft, this seems far fetched to me, even for the crazy freak show in power in Kiev. However, I would not put that kind of trick passed Uncle Sam who can always blame it on the Ukies. What is sure is that the US wants Putin dead. So maybe?

The current version of the Novorussians is an interesting one: they say that a Ukie Su-25 shot down MH17 and that they then shot down the Ukie Su-25. Actually, this is not the most unlikely possibility. Of course, this also means that if the Novorussians attempted to shoot down a Ukie Su-25 they might have missed and the missile might have continued towards the MH17 especially if its radar had gone active. So a Novorussian mistake is still a "possible", at least in my mind. If, and this is a big IF, this was a Novorussian mistake, I don't feel that we can blame them very much. The one undeniable fact is that this disaster happened in Ukrainian ATC space and they, the Ukie ATC, had the primary responsibility to keep MH17 in a safe air corridor and not the Novorussians who had neither the technical means nor the legal obligation to do so. Also, just a few days ago the Ukies had announced that they were closing the airspace over the combat zone to an altitude of 9600m (if I remember correctly). If the Novorussians heard this, they could have easily concluded that MH17 was a military recon flight flying towards Donestk from Dnepropetrovsk. Besides, I am not at all sure that the radar on the Buk M1 can differentiate between 9'600m and 10'000m or, if it can, that the operator would have been aware of the difference this could mean.

Again, keep in mind my caveat above. I am not, repeat, not a specialist of air defenses. But I did do some air defense and monitoring work in my past, and on the basis of that experience and of what I have heard so far is here my guess:

I would say that at this point in time I am 90% in favor of the deliberate Ukie attack theory. The remaining 10% I would give to the mistaken Novorussian attack version. I am more than willing to change my mind if I get new facts.

Stuff we should look for

First, the black boxes. Even when hit, most pilots have the time to say something and that something is usually recorded and radioed. Depending on the frequency used, that "something" should have been heard by PLENTY of receivers, not only the Ukie ATC. But at the very least, we should have the voice and data recorders from the last minutes of MH17.

Second, Russian radar tracks. That is a problem. The Russian military is one of the worst offenders in terms of secrecy and short of a direct order by Putin, they are likely to be most uncooperative. Still, these guys probably have it all: ATC chatter, pilot messages, transporter signal, exact location of the missile(s) launched, point of impact, etc. As I said, they most likely had a 20/20 vision of the air space over Donetsk. The trick is to get them to share it, especially with the corporate media and the "independent" experts all already clamoring that the Russians are tampering with the flight recorders. Still, things are changing in Russia, possibly after the PR disaster following the Soviet shooting down of KAL 007 (which most definitely was a US spy mission and deliberate provocation), they are more willing to share data. A spokesman for the Russian Air Force has already disclosed that they had recorded the signals of a Ukie BukM1 battery surveillance radar at the moment of the tragedy. He even identified the exact Ukie unit involved. Hopefully, as this scandal snowballs, the Kremlin will order the Russian Air Force to make more data public. Not to convince Uncle Sam and his EU minions, of course, but at least to convince the rest of the planet.

Speaking of Uncle Sam and his EU minions. They also know. The US and NATO maintains a 24/7 surveillance of Ukie and Russian air space at least to the Urals, possibly even on the other side (though I am not sure). I bet you that Obama was told who done it within 2 hours of the tragedy happening. That info was probably shared with the Echelon countries, but not with the rest of NATO, but even they probably know thanks to their own intelligence capability (Banderastan is chock-full of EU spies not a single one of which was ever caught by the Ukie SBU since independence!). So here again we have a 9/11 kind of situation: everybody knows, but nobody will admit it.

The last question then

There is an obvious last question which we need to ask: if the Ukies did it, could they have done so without the US knowing about it? The answer, in case anybody had any doubts about this, is absolutely categorically and emphatically not. No way Jose, not this regime, not one which is 110% dependent of, and submitted to, Uncle Sam. In other words, if this was a deliberate Ukie attack, then this really was a deliberate US attack. Not quite a "false flag", but a sneaky dirty trick, a longtime US specialty. The typical US way works like this: organized and planned by Uncle Sam, paid for by the Saudis, executed by the Israelis. At least that is the historical record for US dirty tricks. That is also most likely how 9/11 was done. Why bring in 9/11 several times at the risk of infuriating the doubleplusgoodthinking crowd yet again? No, not just for the heck of it, but to remind everybody that the folks who killed 3000+ people on 9/11 would not hesitate for a nanosecond to kill "only" 300 or so, especially if the risk of getting caught is negligible, which in this case it is. If in the case of 9/11 it is the entire Establishment which by stupidity or by cowardice which was made an accomplice of the crime, in this case the folks who did it will have the support of a rabidly russophobic Establishment which will not care one bit about the truth as long as it allows it to further flame the flames of hatred against Russia.

A provisional conclusion of sorts - Lasciate Ogni Speranza

This crime will never be properly investigated nor will the culprits ever be punished for it. Oh sure, there will be plenty of books in the future who will reveal it all in minute details but, as Michel Parenti always reminds us, history is not only written by victors, it is also written by the elites, the oligarchs, the banking establishment, the 1%ers. If anything, 9/11 has proven that our society is completely indifferent to facts and proof. Our society is ruled by ideological dogma and political expediency. In the case of MH17 the accepted dogma is that the Novorussians are the bad guys and the political expediency says that this latest crime cannot be blamed on the "heroic Euro-Ukrainian freedom fighters" or, even less so, on Uncle Sam.

Just as I wrote this last sentence above, I decided to check my favorite Imperial Mouthpiece and, sure enough, I read this: "US President Barack Obama has said a surface-to-air missile fired from a rebel-held area in east Ukraine brought down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17". See, it is that simple! How needs flight recorders of radar tracks anyway?! If the US President said so, then it is so. Any other interpretation is a criminal delusion bordering on terrorism. Who needs proof when we got both Poroshenko and Obama saying that the Russikies did it?

I am disgusted beyond words by both of these ugly, evil, clowns.

Well, I hope that that some of you will have found the exercises above useful, regardless of all my caveats. I wish my recollection of working with air defenses was better and I wish my knowledge was not 25 year old. As always, this is the best I can do and I share it to you, my friends, in the hope to resist the imperial propaganda machine the best I can. If there are those amongst you who have a more recent and possibly more hands-on knowledge of these topics, I beg them to share that knowledge with the rest of us.

Kind regards and many thanks,

The Saker

Selected Comments

Anonymous, 18 July, 2014 23:44

My guess is it is a mix:

100% Chance Ukrainian Kiev intentional directed the plane over that path and lowered its flight path to 1000 m above prohibited space, AND (then 50% Ukrainians shot it down OR 50% the Self Defense Forces shot it down thinking it was a Military Plane. )

In all cases, it is the Ukrainian Kiev failure to indicate that should be a complete no fly zone. Now in return, I have seven apartments in Lugansk being shelled by massive Ukrainian Arty attacks with the Ukrainians Lying Openly and claiming the LPR is shelling their own city.

Which mind you many of these LPR people are Lugansk Residents. Lugansk has a much larger percentage of Lugansk residents then Donetsk. Non of the people I know would ever shell Lugansk willingly.

Frankly the decision to NOT have refugee camps for civilians in Ukrainian Territory says it pretty much. The goal is to drive AS MANY of the people (civilians) as possible out of Eastern Ukraine permanently.

Unfortunately for the Ukrainians, the officer staff of the DPR is significantly more competent then the ATO forces. Fairly obvious. Yes, I wrote once or twice before. Need to visit Florida.

Anonymous, 19 July, 2014 00:00

What is happening with the offensive against junta? Was it all stopped because of this, evidently Kiev's/CIA engineered, crime against the passengers of the Malaysian airline? There is absolutely no news of any kind on this front. It seems to be like this is yet another layer of evil directed at the anti-Nazi resistance of Novorossiya.

Sligo, 19 July, 2014 00:07

Spin isn't reality. This business will do nothing to change the facts on the ground. I can pretty much guarantee that no popular Western crusade against Russia or the Eastern Separatists will develop as a result of this. The civil war will grind on.

The self-generated media hysteria will accomplish nothing and in a week or so the MSM will be off yipping and hooting at the newest bright and shiny thing.

Nobody will be prosecuted. Someday the facts may come out, but nobody but enthusiasts will care.

Anonymous:

Another very, very simple question:

Why would pro-Russian fighters even target an aircraft flying at 33,000 ft. and clearly headed into Russia which is only 20 something miles away.

Personally, I think this is in a realm of total impossibility.

123abc

I think it's safe to say that ultimately there won't be conclusive evidence about who is responsible for the planecrash.

The positions at the UN security council remained unchanged. Russia's foes accused Novorussia and/or Russia. Russia's friends remained neutral and insisted on impartial investigations. Given that there won't be proof either way I think that ultimately the planecrash is not a gamechanger. The long-term projects (Eurasia, BRICS) will continue. Short-term there will be more sanctions, but they won't be life-threatening.

Russia has already successfully dealt with at least one such incident (Ghouta), so it is experienced in maneuvering in such stressful situations on the diplomatic front, it also has experience in doing sufficient propaganda work to fizzle out MSM hysteria. Sanctions will come, but Europe didn't fall for Ghouta, so hopefully they will also not fall for the planaecrash incident. My only concern is that there is a danger that the propaganda work may be overdone, for example „Der Spiegel" is already portraying Putin as a crazy conspiracy theorist.

What we can expect is that the US increases weapons supply to the junta, maybe even overtly. But I hope it won't really change anything substantial on the ground. Russia will have to be more careful with supplying Donbass, but I think they will manage somehow.

The worst case is that someone from Novorussian Army mistakenly shot down the plane and that undeniable proof comes out. Is that a gamechanger? I think only if Europe wants it to be.

The question is will Russia still be able to support Novorussia? I think yes, they will call for the responsible to face punishment, there will be hysteria, but it could be concentrated on one person, or a small group of persons. And a month or two after that everything will continue like before.

JohnM

This whole "incident" has the same smell as the Syrian gas attack false flag.

There will likely be the same kind of bullshit that followed that one.

I agree that the Russian military should have ALL the information on this, especially if Putin's plane had been in the air ANYWHERE near the area or ANYWHERE close to the time it occurred.

Does any intelligent adult believe anything coming out of the Ukrainian Junta's propaganda machine anymore?

Anonymous

Virgin Atlantic plane was in same area as MH17: Packed Heathrow-bound airliner was flying through Ukrainian airspace at same time as Malaysia Airlines aircraft was shot out the sky

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2697098/THREE-HUNDRED-planes-scheduled-fly-Ukraine-day-MH17-tragedy.html#ixzz37sKMV0wt

So how come the Novorussians decided to shoot at MH17, but at none of the 100s of others before it?

There is no way Novorussians would see MH17 as anything other than one of the 100s of airliners that have traversed their territory.

mijj:

yeh .. presenting evidence won't change US Regime propaganda one iota. But, intelligent people who are wondering will welcome anything that has basis in reality.

What matters more than convincing the US Regime leaders to face reality, is to convert the people into basing their views on evidence rather than propaganda. Ie. the schism between the Regime and it's people is in proportion to the difference between the propaganda and reality.

The US Regime rulers have a mindset where they think they can create a reality by controlling information. But we're all embedded within reality, reality isn't a figment of the imagination to be controlled by propaganda. we all have an instinct for when propaganda differs from reality .. so, that instinct needs to be helped along by presentation of evidence whenever possible.

/rant

Mario Drumond :

I am writing in Portuguese with English translation from Google. My comment disputes the Saker in the following point: the important thing is not knowing who shot down the plane of Malaysia but who put him where he was. And we know that Kiev was the guilty one of this. If the resistance militias shot down, did the legitimate right of defense since it does not have air force or information or air traffic control in the region and thus for them anything that fly over their heads is the enemy attack. But if the forces of the coup regime did so, it is a war crime as they have access to all information of air traffic in the region. It is known that the coup regime of Kiev thinks about war crimes.

Thus, anyone who guided the aircraft passengers to the center of the fire, or has allowed it drove there is to blame for the accident. I would think so if any of my loved ones were on that plane.

DonbassBrussels:

Saker thanks for this analysis.I do have a probably stupid question for you, but anyway.

I can't believe that MH has two fatal ''accidents'' (one being this missile attack,but nobody knows what happened to the other MH flight earlier in march).

The probabilities of the very same airline, with the very same type of boeing (777)having twice in a such short period of time two fatal crash and or attacks, are near 0.000000000001 pct for me.

I used to work in the airline industry, MH is not a bad company eventhough they are no Emirates or or any other IATA legacy airline.

They don't have so many flights from Europe to KUL compared to their competitors. They must have been targeted and chosen on purpose.

Do you think Malaysia could have a kind of conflict with the empire? And that maybe because they did not get the RIGHT message(blackmail) with the first crash..we have a second attack over Ukraine...and over the Donbass and indirectly against MH..very very very strange coincidence no?

I'm not a conspiracy theorist fan at all,but I do have difficulties to believe that.

Like we say in french'faire d'une pierre deux coups'.

The Empire(US/NATO/UE)having used this flight for both aims,the first being to destroy the credibility of Russia/dpr once and for all,and the second,a second attack on MH and or Malaysia for a reason we don't know?

Let' s note that the first MH flight involved China and this time it is Russia... two BRICS countries and the two most and probably last ennemies resisting the anglozio empire.

What do you think about that?

Thanks coop.

nb: just thinking about a mossad or mercenaries possibility as the Oligarchs have very deep connections in Israel and very deep pockets as well, eventhough they are quiet buzy in Gaza for the moment.

But never know..

John-Albert:

As several people have pointed out, the BUK was sent into the SE for some reason. And the BUK is principally designed to shoot aircraft down. There are not yet SE aircraft. Only Ukes and civilians.

I think via Occam's razor we have it there. The BUK are *inappropriate* for SE battle, period. So I conclude the Ukrainians moved the BUK into SE with the clear intention of shooting a civilian airliner down and blame it on Russia, which they've managed to do.

They had that flight fly as low as possible, to make certain of the BUK success. Cui Bono + Occam Razor convinces me.

Q:

Collateral Damage

I find it far to early for anybody to blame any side.

First one assumes that as with any civilian death in a war-zone that it was unintended collateral damage. To fly into a war-zone that has every day airplanes shot at is a risk no airline should take if alternate routes are available.

At this stage nothing should be excluded. One may speak about probabilities - anybody who claims to know what happened only creates suspicion on himself.

One more possibility would be that a bomb had been placed in the plane which was triggered either by gps or radio-signal to explode over the conflict zone.

The story with a su-25 being the one who shot it down doesn't sound reasonable. Those planes don't fly at 10000m and usually have very limited air to air capability. They normally carry only air to ground weapons and are to slow to chase an airliner at 10000m/900+kmh anyway.

One can never exclude pure coincidence but two airplanes in a few month is stressing chance to the limit. Especially as many predicted that MH370 would reappear in a false flag. MH17 is a bit like seeing a ghost plane.

Anyway lets hope that is not another

RMS Lusitania.

keyhoti1:

I got some information on the Buk system.

It requires a minimum of four vehicles - five if extra missiles are carried, or the launch vehicle is not loaded.

The three other vehicles are for detection, aiming and control.

A highly trained crew of 15-17 personnel is required, so it all points to the Junta eh, given all else.

Larchmonter445

On the way to my advanced degree in Communications I studied Mass Communications and Propaganda.

An overarching Law of Communication came from Goebbels.
"He who says it first is right."

Hitler's Basic Principles of Communication were simple.

Avoid abstract ideas - appeal to the emotions.
Constantly repeat just a few ideas. Use stereotyped phrases.
Give only one side of the argument.
Continuously criticize your opponents.
Pick out one special "enemy" for special vilification.

Goebbels' Principles of Propaganda developed the art into science.

Propagandists must have access to intelligence concerning events and public opinion.

Propaganda must be planned and executed by only one authority.
It must issue all the propaganda directives.
It must explain propaganda directives to important officials and maintain their morale.
It must oversee other agencies' activities which have propaganda consequences.

The Propaganda consequences of an action must be considered in planning that action.

Propaganda must affect the enemy's policy and actions.
By suppressing propagandistically desirable material which can provide the enemy with useful intelligence.
By openly disseminating propaganda whose contents or tone causes the enemy to draw the desired conclusions.
By goading the enemy into revealing vital information about himself.
By making no reference to a desired enemy activity when any reference would discredit that activity.
Declassified, operational information must be available to implement a propaganda campaign.
To be perceived, propaganda must evoke the interest of an audience and must be transmitted through an attention-getting medium.
Credibility alone must determine whether propaganda output should be true or false.
The purpose, content, and effectiveness of enemy propaganda; the strength and effects of an expose'; and the nature of current propaganda campaigns determine whether enemy propaganda should be ignored or refuted.
Credibility, intelligence, and the possible effects of communicating determine whether propaganda materials should be censored.
Material from enemy propaganda may be utilized in operations when it helps diminish that enemy's prestige or lends support to the propagandist's own objective.
Black rather than white propaganda must be employed when the latter is less credible or produces undesirable effects.

Propaganda may be facilitated by leaders with prestige.

Propaganda must be carefully timed.
The communication must reach the audience ahead of competing propaganda.
A propaganda campaign must begin at the optimum moment.
A propaganda theme must be repeated, but not beyond some point of diminishing effectiveness.

Propaganda must label events and people with distinctive phrases or slogans.
They must evoke responses which the audience previously possesses.
They must be capable of being easily learned.
They must be utilized again and again, but only in appropriate situations.
They must be boomerang-proof.

Propaganda to the home front must prevent the raising of false hopes which can be blasted by future events.

Propaganda to the home front must create an optimum anxiety level.

Propaganda must reinforce anxiety concerning the consequences of defeat.

Propaganda must diminish anxiety (other than that concerning the consequences of defeat) which is too high and cannot be reduced by people themselves.

Propaganda to the home front must diminish the impact of frustration.
Inevitable frustrations must be anticipated.
Inevitable frustrations must be placed in perspective.

Propaganda must facilitate the displacement of aggression by specifying the targets for hatred.

Propaganda cannot immediately affect strong counter-tendencies; instead it must offer some form of action or diversion, or both.

These would be principles guiding the conduct of propaganda operations.

Larchmonter445 said...

james@wpc said...
It has only ever been the psychopaths against the rest of us. So I think it wise to reject all labels they use to divide us and see ourselves as one humanity that instinctively cares for each other.

Good advice. And the perspective on the Elites as psychopaths is correct. They brag on Wall Street of their own pathology. Books are written of the psychodynamics of these rulers of economy, military and politics.

Anonymous said...

From your first paragraph:

"...no matter what, the AngloZionists will blame Russia..."

Earlier today I took a screenshot of an NBCNEWS page. A video had a short descriptive sentence which was spooky, sad and comical all at the same time. It is like watching the movie 1984 but it is real life and I cannot leave the theatre.

"Officials are trying to find out whether Ukrainian separatists or Russians fired the shot that took down Flight 17.

Published July 17th 2014, 6:55 PM"

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-plane-crash/who-fired-surface-air-missile-n158961

Nora said...

AGS,

"I don't want America destroyed. I want her REDEEMED. Any American who DOESN'T want that is NOT an American."

AMEN, Sister! Thank you for all you said. God, if we could just all work together developing strategies to regain control of our politicians and rein in the oligarchs instead of bickering and blustering and attacking each other.

james@wpc,

That was an excellent comment. Yes, psychopaths are drawn to power like moths to a flame -- but in a system of representative government the constraints on their power, regardless of however well it was designed, still boil down to the same thing: the willingness of the public to get, and stay, involved in the process. That is precisely where we dropped the ball, and while we were busy doing other things, the danged ball got hidden and we don't even know where to look.

But the answers to this dilemma are out there just waiting for us to get our act together enough to.. act together and get something done that really matters, to everyone eveyrwhere. Please folks, let's get going on at least getting along and trying to decide what we really want, and the best means of achieving it.

the original Paul said...

The DPR militia did aquire a BUK system.

http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/11020.html

But, here is the kicker. Notice the red tips on the missiles. This designates they are training rounds with inert warheads. Red tips on missiles to designate training or test rounds is a standard practice for all ex-Soviet states including Russia and Ukraine. The DPR leaders, or anyone knowing how to use this equipment, would know this and would never try to use them to actually shoot something down.

If you look at any deployed BUK launchers, they always have white tips. These are live. I have not seen any evidence that the militia have acquired live missiles to replace the test rounds. This could be a good reason why we have not seen them deployed or talked about since they were acquired. This could also explain the conflicting reports from Kiev about the militia having them and then not having an active system.

WizOz 19 July, 2014 04:19

@Larchmonter445

You are unfair to the real father of Propaganda, Edward Bernays, the nephew of Dr. Freud, who wrote in 1928 a book entitled "Propaganda"!

I stumbled upon the following @http://open.salon.com/blog/rw005g/2010/08/24/propaganda_part_i_bernays_and_goebbels

"I remember a book I read called PR: A Social History of Spin. The author discussed how the Nazi Minister of Propaganda, Dr. Josef Goebbels, was an ardent student of Mr. Bernays, despite the fact that Mr. Bernays was Jewish. Goebbels desperately wanted to meet Mr. Bernays and apparantly sent numerous books to him to be autographed. We don't know if Mr. Bernays autographed them, but Goebbels claimed that he did. Goebbels, who had a PhD in philosophy (which is crucual in terms of understanding how he was able to understand Bernays and apply his writings in the way that he did), apparantly had an even larger library on propaganda than Mr. Bernays and had not only read all of his books, but had largely memorized a good deal of them as well.

Goebbels was able to utilize Bernays' ideas on propaganda in a manner that was the most malicious and homicidal ever seen in the 20th century: to support the Final Solution".

Actually you find a good presentation of Stuart Ewen's book "PR!A Social History of Spin" @PR! A Social History of Spin; Mapping out the Development of PR" (pdf).

Anonymous said...

Fwd from Canuckistan
@Larchmonter445
Thx for that excellent summary re: propaganda.

It will surely help "us" in our collective quest to counter and challenge "our" yellow journalists that repeat the narrative and precanned scripts that fuel the politicos suspicious motives.

@Saker et @all, thx for your continued efforts and keep fightin' the good fight!

"Propaganda is as propaganda does,eh?"

Writer said...

Saker,

Listing and comparing all possibilities is good logical discipline and a useful exercise in any confusing situation. With that in mind, one possibility has not been adequately examined, an attack using interceptor aircraft. To understand why, compare the characteristics of an interceptor to a surface-to-air missile.

A manned interceptor allows a visual identification of the target. (This is particularly important in peacetime operations.) It also allows confirmation of destruction, with repeated attack, if necessary. And it allows (at altitude) the use of guns rather than guided rockets. While none of these may have been an issue in this case, there is another characteristic that makes an interceptor attack quite distinctive: it can be done at long range.

This means (in principle) that anyone within a thousand kilometers (or more) could have attacked that aircraft. Of course, this goes "down the rabbit hole" quite far, but it is a possibility, and should be considered.

Having said this, and together with everything else that has been said on this subject, one might ask, what was the purpose of this attack? Besides the propaganda value, it is a distraction from what is actually happening "on the ground", so to speak. It allows the media, and whole societies, to focus on something of little significance while ignoring important developments. In that respect, it has been successful, even here in this forum.

Perhaps this war has a similar function, in a wider context.

Anonymous said... 19 July, 2014 05:25

"The death of about 300 people fully lies at the Ukrainian government's door," Matviyenko said. The incumbent authorities in Kiev "are like thimble-riggers - they say one thing and do a totally opposite thing."

"Independent investigation will give all the necessary assessments and we hope it will cool off the hotheads in Kiev and will bring them back to senses and will show them that it's impossible to continue the combat actions because a full-blown civil war will be the next phase," she said.

Anonymous said...

You don't even need to walk on the quicksand of "nineelven" for an example. There are plenty of undisputed (any more) ones.

Remember the Maine anyone ?The US blew up one of its own battleships with about 1200 men onboard, just to start a war with Spain. How about the Tonkin Gulf incident...even mainstream corporate press admit that was a set up.

What about the recent sarin gas attack on Syrian peasants arranged by the degenerate govt. of Turkey with the foreknowledge and tacit approval of the Obama administration ? That's been outered in detail by Seymour Hersh..

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the analysis. This is a False Flag in the oldest tradition of the US War Party. I'm sure Russia knows exactly what happened. The ukie air space must be the most closely monitored in the world.

AGS said...

To JamesWPS. Here's a question. Name a successful world leader in the last 100 years who was not ruthless. Its a prerequisite for leadership these days.

I have NEVER hopped on the bandwagon to criticize Putin just for shits and giggles. He's a pretty pragmatic guy. He wants to move Russia forward. And he's sick of ruthless American hegemony which is responsible for a lot of human suffering in the last century. I get all that. Given the spiraling moral depravity of ZUSA -- I sympathize. But he learned his craft at KGB. If I can pull up my big-girl panties and admit that GHWBush wasn't just some well-mannered patrician (but a ruthless CIA black-ops chief) then you can admit Putin is ruthless too. You can argue Putin has better reasons for being ruthless. Don't know. Doesn't matter. He wouldn't be President of Russia if he were NOT ruthless.

I'll say this one more time. I have NO FUCKING CLUE who shot that plane out of the air. But I would bet the farm that Obama and Putin DO know exactly who pushed the button -- and why. I don't think Kiev or Novorussia fired the missile. It's possible. But unlikely. I believe someone WANTS us to believe Kiev or Novorussia was responsible. Ineptitude or fog-of-war is more palatable than purposeful intent when you kill a bunch of passengers and families on a civilian flight. US could have done it. We have the means and ability and are RUTHLESS enough to kill innocent civilians with missiles. Some might say we've had lots of practice. But no one has offered a rationale for that scenario that seems plausible. Russia had the means, expertise, opportunity and MAYBE -- based on what Strelkov said was found at the crash site -- a rationale for it. We will never know. Ever.

My only job -- as a part of humanity -- is to be a filter for TRUTH. Shilling or spinning for EITHER the blue or red team is cring-worthy. I'm too much of a snob to shill for anyone. Truth doesn't need shilling.

Andrew said...

Saker:

Starting from about noon today in the eastern US, the Russians have been sitting back with a wide Cheshire grin, as oppose to the suspicious panic they had yesterday.

Old Ez posted a very interesting link upthread - I would say by far this is the most interesting post on the thread.

This tells me two things. Yesterday, the Russians knew the plane had been shot down with a SAM launched in Donbass, but they weren't sure immediately who had done it since they knew that the DNR had Buk systems obtained from Ukraine that Russia may very well have helped make recently operable. Today they were able to confirm to their own satisfaction that it was the Ukrainian military that is the guilty party, whether out of sheer incompetence as with the Transsiberia shoot down, or out of conspiratorial malice, which is my suspicion and likely theirs.

So today we see Russia rejecting the possibility of the black boxes being delivered to them and saying Kiev should lead the investigation of this mess (in other words confidently sitting back knowing they have a Royal Flush in their own military data as to exactly what happened), blaming the Kiev MOD for having brought operational AA SAM systems in theater and pointedly suggesting they were the origin point of the shoot down, and threatening to back up NAF with military force in the event of further cross-border artillery provocations. Russia in other words is sitting back and rolling with the western punches, confident that no matter what the West and Ukraine try to spin and release as "the truth", they will be able to trump with leaks of their own intelligence data that show exactly who did it from within the Ukraine military.

Western newspapers relying on CIA/NSA/DIA sources have leaked the sort of "primitive" intelligence we might suspect the US to be capable of providing in this theater from satellites and whatever assets it has in Turkey, the Black Sea, and elsewhere nearby and correctly concluded that a missile was launched from the conflict area and not from Russia. If they have figured out more than that, such as the specific launch location or system used, they haven't yet let on, and I am not sure they would be able to get that specific..

Russia on the other hand not only has its own air defence radar and data systems immediately adjacent to the crash site as opposed to hundreds of miles away, but also has the benefit that the Ukrainian systems (both ATC and AA defense) were all formerly operationally linked with Russia's, with the likelihood that book door access capability still exists into their operating data, to say nothing of innumerable Russian agents with the SBU, military, and MIA able to provide human intelligence, as well as of course direct access to NAF intelligence gathering. It is therefore highly likely that Russia knows exactly where the missile was fired from, what Ukrainian unit did it, and has a voice recording of the fire command and related crosstalk from Ukrainian military coms and also from Kiev-Borispol and Dnipropetrovsk ATC.

In other words, Ukraine can spin all they want, but Russia is going to dribble the real truth out slowly unless Ukraine will just man up and explain what happened to a candid world.

karlof1 said...

Operation Northwoods was the template for 9/11. The actual documents are publicly available at the National Security Archive, http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/

As I've outlined, World War 3 has already begun, and the latest BRICS moves present a very big challenge to the US Empire, and the war within Ukraine is just one of many engagement fronts already occurring. Like the Hydra, the Unipolar Power is very resilient at fighting off the efforts to bring about a multi-polar world and has never wavered from shedding blood--anyone's.

I predict the intensity on the global scale will escalate and a new "hot spot" will sprout.

Andrew said...

I don't know if anyone else has noticed this little item, but isn't it funny how when 300 precious westerners are killed in Ukraine, it is an international outrage, but when Ukraine kills that many Russian among its own citizenry in the matter of perhaps a week by bombing, strafing, missiles, artillery, shooting, there is crickets chirping?

Could it be because as we already know thanks to Hitler, Streicher, Yatseniuk, and Poroshenko, Russians are subhuman? So their death's don't even count? Like Palestinians? Who just in one day saw as many of their compatriots die at the hands of Israel as died in MH17 crash with nary a peep of outrage from the West?

Anonymous said...

Про "фальшивого" диспетчера (About the "fake" Manager)

http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1680221.html (trans) http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.ru/colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1680221.html

"After the sensational statements Spanish Manager who worked at the Boryspil airport and reported the fact of destruction of the "Boeing" Kyiv junta, was quickly brushed his Twitter (which is pointless - screenshots is more than enough) and began trying to discredit the source, saying that not the Manager and he was not such a person.
It is quite logical for fascists and their accomplices, as the Spaniard actually start torpedoed preparing a provocation. In fact, as mentioned earlier, the Spaniard more than real and flashed in the press long before history with the destruction of the "Boeing" Kyiv by the Nazis. For example, here is the note from may 9, 2014.

Spanish blogger about the situation in Ukraine: People filled with hatred

Spanish blogger Carlos (@spainbuca) used his Twitter page to offer their own vision of what is happening in Ukraine, where he has several years of experience with the air traffic controller. However, the radicals called "separatist agitator" and demand his expulsion from the country. On his Twitter page Carlos running Manager in Borispol, seeks to present objective information about the events in Ukraine without trying to join any of the conflicting parties. Unlike many large European media, he is not afraid to admit that to death in Odessa involved far-right radicals, and the Ukrainian military men are not eager to fight against their own citizens in the South-East of the country, as required by Kyiv authorities. Some readers thank him for his detailed and unbiased coverage of political crisis in Ukraine, others require for his expulsion and even death. "I have my own opinion, their own point of view, the point of view of an ordinary man with a job that does not imply any dependencies. I do not belong to the media, to any political party," emphasizes blogger. "I think people are filled with hate . I do not see the possibility of returning to the West and East of peaceful life together. ... This conflict, and the people don't want it resolved. And hatred is so great,at least in Kyiv that this country, I think, will not be able to live in peace and tranquility," Carlos said in an interview with RT. "My co-workers are not only intended to inform the authorities about what I give my point of view, they are urged to ensure that sent me a whole battalion to have me deported to get me killed, " said the Spaniard. - I had a meeting with the security service of one of the European embassies, during which they told me that I better bring his family out of the country within 24 hours. In the end, I listened and day took my wife and daughter from Ukraine".

http://so-l.ru/news/show/15524137 - zinc

Of course he they will try to shut up and try to discredit, as his testimony ideally complement the testimony of several witnesses who had seen the aircraft junta near the crash site.

PS. Also in the topic.
1. The "Buk", which the junta was trying to pass for a Russian, was documented through Krasnoarmeysk occupied by the junta from may, it was no one rocket.
2. According to the message of Zygobranchia, "Boeing" was first fired from the Ukrainian "Buka", calculation missed and the ship was finished with rockets "air-air" with the Ukrainian aircraft.
3. In General, various Conspirology in my opinion complicates the problem - facts indicate that the "Boeing" was shot down by a Ukrainian aircraft that was the reason of his death. The version with "Bukh" in my opinion is a false trail."

Perhaps the Buk missile took out one of the Ukrainian fighters, which accounts for the parachute seen, and the remaining fighter then shot down the airliner.

Paul II said...

Victor,

Perhaps they don't want people to contaminate the crime scene. It is looking entirely possible/likely that an air-to-air missile was used, and they need protect the evidence.

As for a BUK, sounds like more noise in the endless noise around the Anglo-American Empire's desire to maintain control of the world.

Sampanviking said...

As you said Saker Cui Bono

Look not only at the combat position on the ground (you do not need me to list that for you) but also further afield.

First you have Europe and US wholly out of step over sanctions and the EU unable to agree its new President and Foreign Minister, purely on account of Russia

Second - within hours the Israeli ground offensive starts to roll and has the best media shield money could buy!

Anonymous said...

Just to add possibilities:
Consideration against a deliberate Ukies shot downof MH17: they should know that the debris would fall in Novorussia controlloned areas and then profs possibly found.
Then, addo this.
If, for some reason, high altitude reconnaissance russian aircrafts were in the area, the Ukies tryed to hit them with such Buk missiles (recently rushed in the region). In the route was the MH17, or the aircraft/aricrafts entered in the MH17 shadow. So the missiles (such AA missiles are fired in salvos, no just one), hit the MH17 and, possibly the (or one of the) russian aircraft.

Anonymous said... 19 July, 2014 05:25

"The death of about 300 people fully lies at the Ukrainian government's door," Matviyenko said. The incumbent authorities in Kiev "are like thimble-riggers - they say one thing and do a totally opposite thing."
"Independent investigation will give all the necessary assessments and we hope it will cool off the hotheads in Kiev and will bring them back to senses and will show them that it's impossible to continue the combat actions because a full-blown civil war will be the next phase," she said.

Anonymous said...

You don't even need to walk on the quicksand of "nineelven" for an example. There are plenty of undisputed (any more) ones.

Remember the Maine anyone ?The US blew up one of its own battleships with about 1200 men onboard, just to start a war with Spain. How about the Tonkin Gulf incident...even mainstream corporate press admit that was a set up.

What about the recent sarin gas attack on Syrian peasants arranged by the degenerate govt. of Turkey with the foreknowledge and tacit approval of the Obama administration ? That's been outered in detail by Seymour Hersh..

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the analysis. This is a False Flag in the oldest tradition of the US War Party. I'm sure Russia knows exactly what happened. The ukie air space must be the most closely monitored in the world.

Anonymous said...

Fools think 'the truth' will save Russia- but the famous saying "truth is the first casualty in war" is ever true. The 'zionists' took control of the mainstream and fake alternative media outlets to control the 'truth' perceived by the sheeple- and in this aim they are 100% successful.

False flags are used because false flags work. That a false flag is a lie by definition never matters. False flags are always a small part of a well co-ordinated propaganda effort.

The aim of the West was to draw Russia into the Ukrainian situation (by threatening to eject Russia from its essential port in Crimea), but ensuring Putin did not take the big step and liberate the entire region of Novorussia. The 'stick' was the claim that if Russia went into Ukraine, the West would immediately go into Syria. This argument persuaded Putin to be an 'appeaser', and we all know how that works out.

Did you know the BBC claims that all the shelling on civilian areas in Novorussia is actually likely to be a result of rebel ground-to-ground missile strikes? You and I would choke on the thought of a lie that big, but the BBC states that lie every time it covers the situation in Novorussia.

Their evil knows no bounds. If you make the mistake of thinking that because your opponent is the West, in some sense there is 'hope' because the values of the West are fundamentally 'good', you are literally insane.

I would humbly suggest you look again at how the 'Allies' (the West) fought WW2. Not even Genghis Khan had the same taste for exterminating whole cities full of innocent Humans that the British and Americans used as their main method of waging war. Yes, the wartime Japanese were unthinkably evil, and the Nazis ruthless beyond all excuse, but the Allies were led by a far higher evil- one that used every aspect of WW2 to prepare the ground for one final World War- the World War we are drawing ever closer to.

BuckHam said...

The actual airliner shooting and the corresponding mass propaganda are a clear indication of the "target Russia strategy" and the culpability of the puppet masters.

circumstantial evidence shows it.officially facts don't matter, they never did. the western propaganda machinery will not be distracted from it's ultimate goal: the dismantling of Russia by all means.Voltaire net's quote is most fitting here:

"Since the attacks of September 11, we are witnessing a transformation of the way the media report the news. They lock us in the unreal. They base truth not on the coherence of a presentation, but on its shocking character. Thus, the observer remains petrified and cannot establish a relation to reality.

The media are lying to us, but at the same time, they show us that they are lying. It is no longer a matter of changing our perception of facts in order to get our support, but to lock us in the spectacle of the omnipotence of power. Showing the annihilation of reason is based on images that serve to replace facts. Information no longer focuses on the ability to perceive and represent a thing, but the need to experience it, or rather to experience oneself through it."

http://www.voltairenet.org/article184787.html

The Lockerbie case which turned factsupside down blaming Lybia's Ghaddafi is a case in point (among others).

Think! Peace in Palestine would be trivial for the West if it were desired. Peace in the Ukraine simply required the same solution witnessed peacefully in Czechoslovakia- a division into new nations on long-standing ethnic lines. The destruction of Libya, Syria and Iraq only happened because the West chose such evil. When the 'Cold War' ended, the West actually ramped up its nuclear weapons programs, ending the anti-missile treaties so 'first strike' nuclear strategies could be advanced.

Humanity does not want World War, but the mosters that rule the West surround themselves with various types of influential death-cult servants like the zionists and fundamental 'Christians' (who are not Christians, because they follow the Jewish Old Testament/Torah which Christ and his followers specifically rejected when they created their new religion).

The entire ruling class in the USA wants to see Russians subject to the same never-ending military aggression that the Palestinian people live with on a daily basis, yet Putin chooses to cosy up to the monsters of Israel, because of their historic links to Russia.

Russia's supreme strategy is to own a nuclear arsenal far, far larger than most suspect, and to ensure that if the worst happens, they have the absolute capability of wiping out every square inch of the USA. What this fails to take into account is that the ultimate evil that has taken control of the West is anti-life. It craves the destruction of all life on Earth- to turn our planet into another lifeless body, like Mars (not so long ago, Mars was also green and blue).

Mankind has an inherent sense of self-preservation. True evil must seek to over-rule this somehow. First evil needs to take control of Man's destiny, and this is what zionism is for. This is what the full surveillance programs revealed by Snowden are for.

Yonatan said...

Dear Saker

Here is a very useful summary of the situation. It refers to Russian radar systems, and reminds us about the false flag missile launch in the Mediterranean detected by Russia that could have been a pretext for military intervention in Syria.

The important points from the article:

And here's what he [Putin] has done today is quite definite statement (yandexed):

i) Putin said that the cause of the plane crash was a "crime" [this word is inappropriate when it comes to technical failure]

ii) He said that the guilty country on which territory the crash happened - that is Ukraine. ("The state, on the territory of which it happened, is responsible for this terrible tragedy").

iii) Putin promised to present evidence of his statement. ("I have already given the appropriate instructions the Ministry of defense .. that they have rendered all the necessary assistance in the investigation of this crime. We will do everything that depends on us to have an objective picture of the incident was a treasure and our public, and the public of Ukraine, and all over the world").

iv) The US has a system of control over space, similar to the Russian early warning system. American satellites and installed in Europe radars also fix everything that flies and goes and crawls. And representatives of the American intelligence has already stated that they recorded a missile launch ground-to-air "by the Malaysian Boeing. But it did not name the place running. Said that "could not determine" the edition of the Wall Street Journal. The second part is not true. Perhaps Americans don't want to open a public place missile launch. Why?

v) In an hour after the fall of Boeing Vladimir Putin called Barack Obama and something spoke to him. After that, according to unofficial data, the U.S. and EU agreed to consider disaster Malaysian flight MH17 "accident". In any case, we already know that the US President on Friday will hold a meeting with the national security Council, which will provide him with all that is known about the disaster. While CNN reports that the fear of escalation of tensions in Ukraine States will try to be "extremely cautious conclusions".

To me this seems to say Putin has evidence it was done by the Ukrainians and can provide evidence to back this up. Obama knows this.

The Ukrainians have previously (in 2001) shot down a civilian aircraft. Ukraine kept up the "it's not us" story for 6 months, ans when supporting evidence came out stated it was "by accident" qualified by "It happens to everyone".

[Jul 19, 2014] MH17 makes the situation in Ukraine an American crisis and an EU catastrophe

Spectator Blogs

artemis in france

This blog is full of spéculation. At the moment Stuart Ramsey of Sky is on the ground at the crash site and has seen only gréât care being exercised by the local population who are collecting the bodies, bagging them and placing them carefully at the roadside. He says thèse are very religious people and are behaving respectfully. He has seen no looting although admits there may have been isolated, rare cases. A little less judgement and a little reflection would help everyone hère. This is a war zone created just as much by the EU as by Russia. Never forget, thèse folk want to be Russian not European. They have a right to self-determination. Look at the mess in Iraq, in Syria, in Libya. Trying to force different cultures to live together doesn't work. Putin was merely supporting people he thinks of as his own because that is what they want from him.

Also, why was this plane flying over a war zone. Other airlines' pilots refused to do so. Malaysian Airlines seem to have a nasty habit of disappearing out of the skies after pilots diverted.

Span Ows > artemis in france

I agree with what you write. Also, the US Intelligence services have been pretty good at telling the Ukrainians EXACTLY what was happening regarding troop and equipment movements etc but suddenly are all coy and/or ignorant? Pull the other one!

dramocles > artemis in france

Al Jazeera has a more balanced take too. A Dutch observer was interviewed and said much the same about the respect being shown at the crash site. Despite the hype being generated by some European politicians you can't leave bodies rotting in fields in summer heat.

There's a lot of political ranting going on right now but we don't know what really happened yet and it will take time for the truth to emerge (I remember when the USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian airliner - the truth about that took a while to come out).

[Jul 19, 2014] MH17: Ukraine claims 'compelling evidence' of Russian involvement - live updates by Chris Johnston

Same talking points as in NYT and WashPost. That reminds me coverage of Georgian invasion into Ossetia in 2008 so closely that I think that same propaganda templates are used. No slightest desire to analyze facts, construct models that point where the aircraft was exactly shot and what Buk batteries were present in the vicinity of this area. Disgusting, simply disgusting. Luckily there is some resistance to brainwashing which is evident from the comment below.

Jul 19, 2014 | theguardian.com

Stopthisshitnow , 19 July 2014 10:10am

I see Kiev have ignored the demand from Russia and the rebels for a ceasefire in the area so the rescue and international investigation can begin.
Just goes to show how much respect Kiev have for the dead that they continue to bombard the civilian population and hold up the rescue efforts while making wild accusations against the Russian speaking population of SE Ukraine.
Kiev need to cooperate with Russia and the rebels controlling the area so the rescue can be done asap.

dinfr31, 19 July 2014 10:24am

Does the black box emit a signal enabling it to be found after disasters such as this? If this is the case can that signal be tracked to see if it (the black box) is in fact been moved to another location?

RandolphHearst dinfr31, 19 July 2014 11:01am

Yes it does. It can also be turned off / disabled.

RuStand, 19 July 2014 10:34am

An Chris Johnston should be happy. His article on the 38 bodeis taken by the rebels to morgue instead of letting them to rot in the filed ignited a sizable outburst from all osrt of morons.

Steben68, 19 July 2014 10:36am

Ron Paul, a former Texas Congressman, points out that the missiles potential source of manufacture is immaterial and argues that although ISIS has a lot of American weapons this does not mean that the US government and Obama wanted them to fall into ISIS's hands. He goes on to add that speculation of Kremlin involvement in the form of pro Russian militia seems propagandised.

What is evident is that those involved in the conflict in eastern Ukraine cannot be considered impartial and objective sources of information. The Ukrainian security forces released the unverified tape of a conversation between pro Russian rebels purporting to admit responsibility for the downing of the Malaysian airliner – however, they can hardly be considered to be unbiased and objective. What is most worrying is the "free press" in the west has taken this on board as factual and based all their suppositions as to who was responsible on this source as if it was undisputed evidence. The US, who has backed Poroshenko's military campaign in Donetsk, have also added "unverified" accusations suggesting that they have seen BUK missile launchers being spirited over the border back into Russia, suggesting that the Russian military were directly involved in aiding the rebels to launch these SAM missiles and therefore concluding that both the rebels and Russians are complicit.

On the other side, Russia has been quick off the mark to accuse the Ukrainians of downing the plane implying that it was a false flag operation and have criticised the US for backing Poroshenko's brutal assault of the rebel held east, which has made full use of air power and has led to high levels of civilian casualties, which are largely ignored by the western media. Obama and the US government are, according to Moscow, directly and indirectly responsible for what has happened in Eastern Ukraine and the tragedy relating to flight MH17.

Accusations and counter accusations fly thick and fast and it would be disingenuous to suggest that propaganda is not an element in these from all sides involved in the conflict. Which brings me to the point that a responsible approach towards finding out what actually happened with this tragic event can only be achieved by an independent investigation that examines all the evidence and arrives at an objective conclusion. Until this happens, propaganda sourced journalism, from whichever side in the conflict, should be taken for what it is, namely, propaganda and speculation founded on prejudice and innuendo.

MarioCarbone Steben68, 19 July 2014 10:57am

Nothing can be or will be achieved.

This is on frontline and there isn't any security predispositions to do this.

Because you have sides in the war here, you can't find anybody that would be trusted by all sides.

And finally what could land examination prove?
Obviouslly here is not question what did it but who did it and you can't come to answer with plane observation.

Otherwise it is so, that on the plane was killed many people but on the land there were killed many more. So actually separatist/ukraine/russian side is not so much in shock then is the rest of the world.
It is like wake up call.

1. This ethnic Russians shouldn't be pusshed so hardlly
2. This plane shouldn't fly there.

ECXi97, 19 July 2014 10:38am

Why people say so-and-so (whichever side) is destroying evidence/covering this up/etc, what do you mean? This crime is going to be solved because there is definitely data about where the missile was fired from/trajectory because this is a major conflict area that will have definitely been monitored by both the American and Russian military. In fact I don't believe for one minute that Putin and Obama do not already know. So what can be covered up?

fauxtronic ECXi97, 19 July 2014 10:43am

I'm surprised you need this clarifying, but here goes: Evidence is required to convict people who commit crimes such as this in an international court. By removing and destroying evidence, those who are implicated in this atrocity are reducing their chances of being convicted.

ECXi97 fauxtronic, 19 July 2014 10:46am

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. It's likely both sides already know who was responsible so there is no incentive/way of covering anything up.

abird2, 19 July 2014 10:43am

In all this is a clear US strategy. The Middle East must be one of the regions where large regional war will begin. The Middle East is one of the front three large global war fronts.

Second Front - European. In Ukraine, the war has unleashed. It already include Poland, the Baltic States (project "Rzeczpospolita -2 against Russia"), will not stand aside and Russia.

Third Front - Pacific (Pacific frontier: the awakening of the spirit of the samurai in Japan, the Pacific front taking shape). In the Asia-Pacific region to actively knock together an anti-Chinese front, awaken Japanese samurai spirit. China loses remain cautious and more frightening neighbors.

Fire in Eurasia should solve all the major problems of USA . First, the old European aristocracy and power centers (Rome, the German-Romanesque aristocracy, Germany, France) will be forced to join the future "Atlantic empire." Great War will allow the West to get out of the systemic crisis with minimal losses, to solve the problem of huge debt load and economy (the supply of weapons, equipment, ammunition, and after the war restoration of damaged infrastructure).

ID9065683, 19 July 2014 10:48am

Why is the Guardian (and all mainstream media) rushing to conclude that the Rebels did this?

Seems like propaganda.

I have no idea what really happened, but I know that unrest in Ukraine is very beneficial to the US. Anything that prevents Russian gas being sold in Europe is support for the dollar. The main pipelines run through Ukraine until Southstream is built.

They need to sell their shale/LNG to the rest of the world to prevent the US trade deficit balooning and causing international dumping of UST's and possible dollar collapse.

Condi Rice explains the US intention very clearly (addressing Angela Merkel in this video):

"You want to change the structure of energy dependence. You want to depend more on the North American energy platform, the tremendous bounty of oil and gas we are finding … You want pipelines that don't go through the Ukraine and Russia. For years we have tried to get the Europeans to be interested in different pipeline routes. Its time to do that".

http://youtu.be/OU1t3t4Bq-Q?t=1m10s

ID9065683 FOARP, 19 July 2014 11:00am

Everything in my post is factual. These facts taken together suggest that the USA has much to gain from unrest in the Ukraine. Strange that the German media is so much more circumspect than the angloidsphere.

Jennifer O'Toole RandolphHearst, 19 July 2014 11:28am

Admitted it ony by Kiev sources so you cant trust that one. the Kiev authorities are covering up and its something really big, meanwhile the Kiev authorities continue to rain down bombs on their own people the civilians in the Ukraine including those Russian speaking Ukrainians, this is commonly known as murder but the West seem to be fast asleep on this one, why is it because it doesn't fit their mindset?

hfakos FOARP, 19 July 2014 11:30am

List your evidence. You don't have any implicating either side with certainty. Wait for the investigation.

theonionmurders JohntheLith, 19 July 2014 11:35am

It would be 'simplistic' to think that the Kiev regime wouldn't try to cause an international incident so as to hasten sanctions toward Russia.

Kal El, 19 July 2014 10:51am

So, from reading the article, Kiev classes the "destruction of evidence" as taking away bodies before they rot in the summer sun to a morgue.

Far from "destroying evidence" by taking bodies to a morgue they are actually "preserving" evidence.

Yet another example of how whatever Kiev says is completely the other way around.

Oskar Jaeger Kal El, 19 July 2014 11:44am

The perpetrators are interfering with a crime scene, while not allowing access to international observers.

RuStand Oskar Jaeger, 19 July 2014 1:38pm

OSCE:
"On the one hand, the bodies don't appear to have been tampered with. They're lying, it seems, exactly where they fell," Mr. Borciurkiw said during an impromptu press conference in a Donetsk hotel lobby."

"On the other hand, there's no one really on hand to move them, to identify them, to put them in cold storage," he said. "So because of that, we observed early stages of decomposition already"

So OSCE understands that there' s the need to put the bodies in cold storage. But you keep parroting Kiev's propaganda - they literally write in their outlets that rebels 'have stolen the bodies' ..

France Fradet, 19 July 2014 10:55am

This video from the Bloomberg website is interesting: a Jane's IHS weapons expert saying it was 99% likely mistakenly shot down. The lives of the dead passengers are not an iota more important than the lives of the dead on the ground or in Gaza, or of civilians anywhere else. A dutch life is not more important than an Arab one. People baying for Putin's blood should be baying for Netanyahu's too, and Obama's.

And I am amazed that no-one is thinking the BRICS are shaking off the petrodollar, and Imperialists like H Clinton and Obama couldn't have had a better excuse to attempt to make Russia a pariah state.

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/downing-of-mh17-almost-certainly-an-accident-hunt-fiJvp4hkQcy1XOsrF4pyRg.html?cmpid=yhoo

SimpleOldSailor, 19 July 2014 10:57am

It is amazing how the USA can be so brazen as to stand up and point the finger so readily at Russia. How many innocents have died as a result of it's use of missiles from drones in Pakistan and Afghanistan? How many innocent Palestinians have to die as a result of it's continuing support for and arming of Israel. These are current and ongoing slaughters and the stars and

H17, we should not be afraid of saying so but we should not allow Obama to divert our attention away from the mad bad policies that the USA and the western rightwing governments continue to pursue.

Ahhbisto SimpleOldSailor, 19 July 2014 11:37am

If you listened carefully all Obama said was that US intelligence had evidence of a rocket launch...and that is all he said. He was entirely non-judgemental, calm and rational. He called for a thoroughand professional air-crash investigation to establish the facts.You however just can't wait to spout off your 238th piece of anti-American rhetoric.

Solidarnosc, 19 July 2014 10:59am

The scramble among western leaders to make political capital out of this tragedy may ultimately backfire quite badly.

neillwa, 19 July 2014 10:59am

The Ukrainian government has accused pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine of trying to destroy evidence at the site where the Malaysia Airlines crashed ....

Malaysian transport minister Liow Tiong Lai says he believes Russia is trying to ensure a safe route to the crash site.

Isn't it funny how Ukraine and the West are just finger pointing acting like children in the school playground, while Russia and China are trying to get to on and help with the investigation without making accusations.

regfromdagenham, 19 July 2014 11:00am

"Obama says destruction of MH17 is a 'wake-up call' for Europe"

The lessons Europe needs to learn:

1) U.S. intervention (foreign policy) normally ends in civil war for the country involved, so don't get drawn in.

2) When a country has a democracy, let the results stand and wait for the next election. The Ukraine would have had a democratic election one year after the Western backed Maiden coup.

3) Don't fly over war zones.

jiffery regfromdagenham, 19 July 2014 11:06am

You might consider that the USA, for all its many foreign policy faults, did not bring down this airliner.

ElvisInWales jiffery, 19 July 2014 11:09am

Doesn't the same apply to Russia?

Blame games are just that, why not wait until we get some actual facts.

Would you convict someone on nothing more than hearsay?

IranCorrespondent, 19 July 2014 11:03am

US invests in a multi Billion Dollar hi-tech ability to spread lies and cover up the crimes of their government all over the planet, but the whole world still knows they just murdered ANOTHER plane load of people

sasha19 IranCorrespondent,19 July 2014 11:07am

A link to such a statement?

regfromdagenham IranCorrespondent, 19 July 2014 11:07am

Considering the resources at their disposal the lies are are pretty abysmal.

the U.S. in Syria "We are drawing a line over the use of chemical weapons"

a few moments later:

The Assad regime has used chemical weapons and we have put the proof on YouTube.

What a coincidence!

Kal El, 19 July 2014 11:04am

LOL, the Ukrainian's aren't wanting much are they.

Separatists must put down their weapons, hand over control of the Ukr/Rus border (and allow international access to the site).

In that case then, the plane is certainly NOT going to be recovered and an investigation done because the Anti-Kiev forces won't agree to points 1 and 2.

Commentator6, 19 July 2014 11:05am

"Warwick's arrival at the scene came in the first few hours before there was any security presence, and he believes he saw strong evidence that looting was already well underway."

"I noticed that I hadn't come across a single wallet with money, or a mobile phone or a camera. They've all mysteriously gone missing."

http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-crash-site-freelance-journalist-filip-warwick-reveals-grim-first-views-20140719-zurxu.html

theonionmurders bcnteacher, 19 July 2014 12:25pm

'Believes' is the key word here.

It usually means a journalist has no credible evidence at all for an assertion beyond what they believe to be true.

It also provides a neat 'get-out clause' if they are subsequently proven to be wrong.

"I noticed that I hadn't come across a single wallet with money, or a mobile phone or a camera. They've all mysteriously gone missing."

Also, this makes no sense. Why should he 'come across money or wallets' when they are either likely to be preserved if they remain in pockets or hand luggage? Notice he doesn't say that he witnesses these thefts happen anywhere, he merely infers it.

Any that aren't secured this way are usually destroyed or lost on impact. This also begs the question of why you would have your money or wallet unsecured during the flight anyway.

Also, if he comments on how bodies have been disfigured beyond recognition, why does he expect passports, cameras and wallets to be fully intact and visible for all to see?

Paradoxically, he then bemoans the fact that no effort is being made to preserve the crash site, only to later complain that the bodies have been left to decompose in the heat.

This is highly manipulated, shoddy journalism constructed to make a particular ideological point and you two are naive enough to believe it.

Doolie, 19 July 2014 11:06am

The west has a long long history of arming political factions that suits the west's sick agenda; Syria, Israel, Al Quaeda, Iran the list is very long.

The west has provided weapons to kill thousands of civilians, innocent civilians, civilians who were as innocent as were those passengers on the MH flight.

But the death of western civilians on MH flight prompts people to a greater outrage than the death of Palestinians and their children, killed by smart US missile weapons this week.

Christine63 Doolie, 19 July 2014 11:16am

No-one here is celebrating war nor death of innocents. The only people that do that are the hard-liners who are directly involved, who seem to get a kick out of murdering innocent civilian parties.

The issue here is that a band of separatist rebels, aided by Russia in apparently shooting down a civilian jet with almost 300 people and children on board, and are now refusing to co-operate in allowing the countries involved, to access the site and do what needs to be respectfully done.

Doolie Christine63, 19 July 2014 1:00pm

If the USA had not promoted the initial unrest in the Ukraine and installed a puppet Nazi as head of the regime; there would not be any fighting there at all. Russia didn't start this mess, the West did.

This IS a now a war zone, it was idiotic of European authorities to allow flights over a war zone airspace. A military plane was shot down only days ago. Does that sound like safe place to take passenger flights through to you ?

SvQMedia, 19 July 2014 11:07am

I wonder what the Baroness Ashton thinks about all this...

unaszplodrmann SvQMedia, 19 July 2014 11:14am

I'm sure her conscience is very... resilient.

zvanrost, 19 July 2014 11:10am

"An air traffic controller, present in the Control Tower (Kiev) that controlled the flight of the Malaysia Airlines flight that crashed on Thurday with 295 people on board points to Ukraine and not the separatists as being responsible for the downing of the plane.
The controller, Carlos, who appears to be Spanish but based in Borispol, has tweeted the following:

"Everything has been recorded on radar. For those that don't believe it, it was taken down by Kiev; we know that here (in traffic control) and the military air traffic control know it too (7.14)
As soon as the Malaysia Airlines B777 disappeared the Kiev military authority informed us of the shooting down. How did they know? (6.00 pm)

If the Kiev authorities want to admit the truth 2 fighter jets were flying very close a few minutes before the incident but did not shoot down the airliner (5.54)

The B777 was escorted by 2 Ukrainian fighter jets minutes before disappearing from radar. (5.48)

The Ministry of the Interior did know that there were fighter aircraft in the area, but the Ministry of Defense didn't. 7.15 pm)

Some days ago, on here, I said that the Kiev military wanted an excuse to get rid of the current president. This could be it, and on Timoshenko's orders 7.36

The military confirnm that it was Ukraine, but it is not known where the order came from. 7.31"

Christine63 zvanrost, 19 July 2014 11:23am

If the separatists didn't do it and the B777 was being 'escorted' by Ukraine jets, then the black box recorders would prove this as the crew would had to have known.

So why were the black box recorders removed by the rebels and are apparently nowhere to be found? Don't they want their innocence to be proven?

Trudi Goater, 19 July 2014 11:10am

The Malaysian minister has said that Russia is helping them and he has spoken to Putin. I'd rather believe him than that twit from the Kiev Post

InternetDemocrats, 19 July 2014 11:10am

Why are we calling these morons "rebels"?

You know, when they're obviously sponsored by a foreign power.

What's "rebellious" about that?

ElvisInWales InternetDemocrats, 19 July 2014 11:17am

Sorry but the Syrian section is in the Middle east where your comment is better placed, as good ol Blighty along with Uncy Sam and Aunt Hollande are sponsoring the war in Syria.

Nexusone InternetDemocrats, 19 July 2014 11:21am

Bit like the Neo Nazis in Kiev that are waging a genocidal war against ethnic Russians. Neo Nazi thugs that were put in place by the perfidious Washington thugs. No nation should trust the US Administration.

Ingelrild InternetDemocrats, 19 July 2014 11:27am

Is this like the neo-nazi, anti-semite pre-election 'rebels' in Kiev, sponsored by foreign powers?

Jesus.

Kal El, 19 July 2014 11:11am

So, how many billions of dollars have been spent putting satellites into space, that then can't even spot MH 370 flying around for hours, or see when a (supposed) missile hit MH 17.

What an absolute waste of money.

Seems for all their supposed on-board technology a "spy" satellite is ONLY any use if the object is stationary and saying "cheese".

[Jul 18, 2014] No Way To Slow Down – America's Foreign-Policy Dilemma

From comments: "But what about the US? Do they really think that relations with Russia will return to normal at some point in the near future after all this? Do they now think (or don't care any more) that they simply can do without Russia's role in international fora and problem solving in various conflicts around the world?"

marknesop.wordpress.com

Fern, July 18, 2014 at 9:57 am

I've just been listening to Obama's speech on MH17 and am now pretty much convinced this is a black op. Obama himself sort of gives the game away when he said something along the lines of "this is a wake-up call for Europe'. So, what have we here? The US has been trying for months to get Europe on board in draconian sanctions against Russia but while European governments are willing to talk the talk (or, rather, echo American bellicosity), they're not willing to walk the walk. This culminated a few days ago when nine European leaders came out against further sanctions leaving the US alone in its decision to impose sectoral sanctions.

Now, what do we have? A plane from an Asian airline whose passenger list is largely European, going down in East Ukraine. While virtually no facts whatsoever are yet known, the whole western MSM goes into propaganda overdrive – Putin dunit – while Obama at his most patrician, speaks of the need to wait for evidence but apart from those six words, spends the rest of the speech making it clear that Putin dunit.

Meanwhile, at the UN, Churkin single-handedly had to fend off a pack, there's no other word for it, of western representatives shouting that Putin dunit.

Can anyone spot a pattern here? Is there any doubt that Russia is being fitted up with the purpose of removing European objections to draconian sanctions?

If this is a black op, the flight was not randomly chosen. It's no accident that it happened to have 100+ researchers into HIV on board en route to a conference in Australia. Not just a waste of life but a waste of lives devoted to helping others. The cynicism is breathtaking. And can anyone explain how so many undamaged passports were collected together so quickly for display to the media?

Warren, July 18, 2014 at 10:38 am

Interesting, if this was genuine Black Op designed to snitch up Russia and pressurize the European into agreeing to tougher sector based sanctions, the why choose a Malaysian non-European airliner? Yes the MH17 had a predominantly European passenger list, however wouldn't a European airliner like KLM, Lufthansa, Air France, etc been a better target and better for propaganda purposes?

The Netherlands has one of the EU countries has consistently been reluctant to increase sanctions against Russia, and even opposed Poland's hysterical demand that NATO forces should be deployed to Poland.

The Western media is in full propaganda blast mode, Western politicians especially from the Anglosphere are all choreographed to blame Russia and force Europe to confront Russia on the Anglosphere's behalf.

Fern, July 18, 2014 at 10:49 am

Warren, take down a western airliner and you generate too much interest and scrutiny from that country which might prove unhelpful. Lots of tiresome relatives who won't let the matter drop bringing political pressure on the government of that country. A non-western airline but on a flight with a lot of Europeans on board is a better bet, particularly when that airline has had one hinky incident in the recent past.

Warren, July 18, 2014 at 11:25 am

Fern, valid points. Very cynical to use Malaysian Airlines for this Black Ops.

Jen, July 18, 2014 at 2:29 pm

I'm sure the US has a bone to pick with Malaysia for having hosted war tribunals in Kuala Lumpur, the first of which (held in 2011) found George W Bush and Tony Blair guilty of war crimes in Iraq; the second (2012) finding Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Alberto Gonazales, John Yoo, David Addington and William Haynes II of conspiracy to commit war crimes after hearing testimony from people tortured in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo prisons; and the third (2013) finding the State of Israel guilty of genocide against Palestinians, and one Israeli army general guilty of war crimes for his involvement in the Sabra and Shatila massacre in 1982 when the Israeli army encircled a refugee camp and allowed Lebanese Christian Phalangists to enter and butcher people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuala_Lumpur_War_Crimes_Commission

Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 may not have been randomly chosen either: 20 passengers on board that craft were Chinese and Malaysian employees of a Texan-based semiconductor manufacturer Freescale Semiconductor. Four of those employees were four of five holders of a patent for a micro-controller for military radar systems; the other patent holder was their employer. There is now a conspiracy theory that these employees' deaths were intended so that the company's owner/s could profit alone from the patent.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/465557/Malaysian-plane-20-on-board-worked-for-ELECTRONIC-WARFARE-and-radar-defence-company
http://beforeitsnews.com/conspiracy-theories/2014/04/rothschild-behind-disappearance-of-flight-mh370-2461420.html

karl1haushofer, July 18, 2014 at 10:06 am

Was in a four day trip and now catching up the recent events.

1. Seps started to gain momentum and Uki forces suffered great losses and had to withdrew.
2. Civilian plane with 300 people was shot down in the Donetsk airspace.
3. Seps are blaming the junta and the junta is blaming the seps and Russia.
4. The Western world is, naturally, blaming seps and Russia.
5. Junta gained from the horrible tragedy.
6. Seps and Russia were the big propaganda losers from this tragedy.
7. Either the seps unintentionally or the junta intentionally shot down the plane.

Southerncross, July 18, 2014 at 1:29 pm

Even if, as is likely, the Ukrainian military shot down the plane, it's still more likely they did it 'unintentionally'. I mean that in the sense that they thought it was an enemy aircraft.

When you put dubiously-trained crews in a combat zone after feeding them ridiculous propaganda about a Russian invasion, and an unidentified aircraft unexpectedly appears in their sector, this is the sort of thing that's likely to happen.

marknesop, July 18, 2014 at 5:07 pm

I still wouldn't blow off the theory that they thought it was Putin, however unlikely; the colour scheme of the two planes is uncannily alike, and if there were Ukrainian aircraft in the vicinity at the time (alleged but not proven) they may have been on-scene only to make a visual ID before firing. I'd give a lot to hear the communications from those planes if they actually were there. There are a lot of airliners still transiting that area, and visual ID would be the only way to be sure of the right target. I don't think it was in any way unintentional, and I think the planners are just adapting to the circumstances as best they can. Whatever the intent was, it is fast turning into a full-court press seeking outrage and calls for war.

Warren, July 18, 2014 at 10:23 am

Published on 17 Jul 2014
I have to say, They were gonna fool a whole lot of people with this one! Thankfully, they have been caught!
The Ukraine Government supported a youtube clip that they say proves Russia had involvement and that Rebels shot down Malaysia Flight MH17. However, Due to their sloppy work, They have been caught! They have since tried to delete the file, but not before it was downloaded over 800 times! More info at links!

http://www.undergroundworldnews.com

http://rghost.net/private/56950510/78…

http://gmorder.livejournal.com/111373…

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07…

Al, July 18, 2014 at 12:14 pm

The underground new link works for me.

I searched gmorder livejournal and got his page

clicking on july the 18th I got the 17th:
http://gmorder.livejournal.com/2014/07/18/

This link works, with 385 comments:
http://gmorder.livejournal.com/1113736.html

Southerncross, July 18, 2014 at 1:34 pm

If this is true, then the Ukes will be working frantically to dispose of any evidence of their culpability.

Including the missile crew, who may already have disappeared up a chimney somewhere.

Fern, July 18, 2014 at 6:37 pm

Exactly what I've been thinking, Southerncross. Dead men tell no tales – if Kiev was responsible, those with knowledge of what happened are probably not long for this world.

yalensis, July 18, 2014 at 4:10 pm

If the Ukes really did have the fake tape created on July 16, then this implies they were planning to attack a commercial airliner. They had no way of knowing their attack would succeed – sometimes things don't work out the way they are planned. They might not have even known which particular day the attack would occur.

However, they might have just been holding the tape ready to go, just in case they succeeded – which they did.

Then they would have hastily uploaded the already-prepared tape; but some moron forgot to change the timestamp on the creation date.

patient observer, July 18, 2014 at 5:52 pm

the two Uke jet fighters trailing the airliner could have been plan B if the missile failed.

Al, July 18, 2014 at 11:54 am,

https://twitter.com/search?q=spainbuca

From various tweets of others (still ongoing as he is being referenced), Spainbuca and other foreign ATC staff were taken off duty, ATC tapes seized…

marknesop, July 18, 2014 at 12:00 pm

If you get the sense that this has all happened before, or was meant to happen before, you're probably right. Remember Operation Northwoods, back in the sixties?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Option 8: 8. "It is possible to create an incident which will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner en route from the United States to Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama, or Venezuela. The destination would be chosen only to cause the flight plan route to cross Cuba. The passengers could be a group of college students off on a holiday or any grouping of persons with a common interest to support chartering a non-scheduled flight.

a.An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At a designated time the duplicate would be substituted for the actual civil aircraft and would be loaded with the selected passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered aircraft would be converted to a drone.

b. Take off times of the drone aircraft and the actual aircraft will be scheduled to allow a rendezvous south of Florida. From the rendezvous point the passenger-carrying aircraft will descend to minimum altitude and go directly into an auxiliary field at Eglin AFB where arrangements will have been made to evacuate the passengers and return the aircraft to its original status. The drone aircraft meanwhile will continue to fly the filed flight plan. When over Cuba the drone will begin transmitting on the international distress frequency a "MAY DAY" message stating he is under attack by Cuban MIG aircraft. The transmission will be interrupted by destruction of the aircraft which will be triggered by radio signal. This will allow ICAO radio stations in the Western Hemisphere to tell the United States what has happened to the aircraft instead of the United States trying to "sell" the incident."

When your foreign policy guardians make up convoluted and shamelessly self-interested plans like this, it should later be unsurprising that people suspect your motives whenever there is an unexplained incident.

Jen, July 18, 2014 at 3:20 pm

Sounds like one conspiracy theory I've heard about United Airlines Flight 93 on 11 September 2001 in which the passengers were all transferred to another flight that took them to Ohio.

Al, July 18, 2014 at 12:29 pm

Daily Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/10977399/Russia-brushes-off-worldwide-criticism-over-Malaysia-Airlines-tragedy.html

"…RT, the Kremlin-funded English-language propaganda channel, even suggested that the missile may have actually been targeted at Mr Putin's personal Il-96 jet.

Such claims were "the straw that broke the camel's back for me" for RT's London correspondent, Sara Firth, who resigned from the channel in protest at its coverage.

"I resigned from RT today," she tweeted. "I have huge respect for many in the team, but I'm for the truth." "
--

Uh-huh? She knows better already?

marknesop, July 18, 2014 at 4:57 pm

Snap. Just like Liz Wahl's dramatic on-air resignation from RT, which was known at least 20 minutes in advance of the "spontaneous event" and probably longer, and featured the steering of rainbow-suspenders, me-and-my-Jewish-boyfriend gayboy Russophobe Jamie Kirchik. Ms. Wahl's name has been forgotten now to all but neocon activists, and her big flounce-out was over gay rights, which are not even on the mainstream radar (just as I said at the time would be the case) since they failed to achieve their goal, which was to derail the Sochi Olympics.

All part of the wool-pulling-over-the-eyes plan in this next act of deception by the west as it continues to batter at the ramparts of Russian resolve and try to drag it into a reaction which can be reacted to with righteous rage.

Al, July 18, 2014 at 1:16 pm

You can't get much more convenient than this!

Malaysia Airlines MH17 live blog: Missile expert arrested near border, Ukraine government says
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-19/malaysia-airlines-mh17-aftermath-of-tragedy-unfolds-live-blog/5608836

"…Authorities in Kiev say two men have been captured near the border on the Ukrainian side, according to reports, one of whom had paperwork indicating he was a missile specialist…"

marknesop, July 18, 2014 at 5:02 pm

Now you need a documents-carrying missile specialist to fire a Buk? A missile system designed to be fired by conscripts? The surest sign of a false-flag scam is the amount of convenient evidence which surfaces immediately afterward. Look how long "Kenny-Boy" Lay got away with his fiscal shenanigans at Enron before the whole thing collapsed, despite the mountain of evidence that did not surface until the collapse although it was years in the making.

Al, July 18, 2014 at 1:44 pm

If it is verified that Ukranian Air Force fighters were near the airliner before hand then that looks like a possible scenario that Kiev had decided to set up. We've heard nothing from the Spanish ATC guy in Kiev since his twitter was shut down/blocked. Most of the major media channels have ignore it too and are still pushing the fake telephone intercepts with the wrong date stamps etc.

I wonder how close the fighters got because if they got within visual range then there would be a chance that someone would have taken a photo – the same with the flight voice recorder which would then have been remarked upon.

A single aircraft by itself, at altitude (flying significantly higher than the earlier An-26 artillery spotter plane that was shot down – i.e. it had to fly lower to see targets clearly enough) would not have attracted any suspicion considering that airliners were continuing to fly that route.

Flying two fighter aircraft in the same vicinity would change that calculation and lend suspicion that it was a high value asset, maybe a specialist military aircraft such as some sort of SIGNIT aircraft, possibly from a NATO country. Maybe that was the intention. to deliberately draw a missile. Re the KAL007 shoot down in 1983, a USAF SIGNIT 'Cobra Ball' had been flying in near by airspace only an hour before KAL007 flew off course and entered soviet airspace of the Kamchatka peninsula.

I don't quite see how a uke fighter shooting it down works though as forensic and expert evidence would show that it was an air-to-air missile that did it, not a much larger missile from a BUK. It would only make sense if the US would be able to push Europe in to action very fast before the full facts are uncovered. They certainly are pushing right now (Hilary, Samantha 'career genocide expert' Power, and Total Fruitcake McCain for starters).

But as we know, facts are irrelevant the the war crowd who will jump on anything, however slim, and twist it in such a way that they will use it to punish whomever they wish. In the West they have done this over and over again to justify everything from invasions and bombing campaigns to sanctions. Now that is true evil.

But what about the US? Do they really think that relations with Russia will return to normal at some point in the near future after all this? Do they now think (or don't care any more) that they simply can do without Russia's role in international fora and problem solving in various conflicts around the world?

We can see that Hilary is setting herself up as a 'Hawk' for the upcoming US presidential election so that the Republican neocon crazies will not be able to accuse her of being as limp-wristed as Obama. Hilary is not in government so she does not have to really pay any consequences for what she says – the same is true of anyone in opposition.

Frankly, it's impossible as an outsider to be accurate, but what we can expect is that any information that does not chime with a simple story pumped by the pro-American crowd will either continue to be totally ignored, brushed off or ridiculed. The consensual media will play ball. These people don't give a shit that 300 people died, only how they can use it.

marknesop, July 18, 2014 at 5:09 pm

I'm thinking now that the Uke aircraft – if present – were there to provide visual ID by voice link.

Paul, July 18, 2014 at 1:54 pm

I have an article about all this in the Ottawa Citizen. Enjoy!: http://ottawacitizen.com/news/world/how-to-stop-the-killing-in-ukraine

karl1haushofer, July 18, 2014 at 2:06 pm

Apparently Denis Pushilin just resigned and probably went to Russia.

Warren, July 18, 2014 at 2:18 pm

Why should he resign?

karl1haushofer, July 18, 2014 at 2:40 pm

Maybe he got cold feet after the airplane was downed? No matter who did it. The seps will be blamed nonetheless. Maybe Pushilin calculated that it is better to quit now than continue?

Warren, July 18, 2014 at 4:43 pm

Cold feet? It's too late now. Pushilin is in too deep, and he needs to follow this through. it's either Novorossiya or bust for him and his comrades.

yalensis, July 18, 2014 at 4:21 pm

I don't believe Pushilin's resignation has much to do with the airline disaster.

This was actually in the works for some time. In fact, I have a comment somewhere above (I don't remember where) on the political wheelings and dealings within the Novorossiya political parties. This was a few days before the airline crash, and that event has obviously trumped everything else, at least for a while..

Basically, in the Novorossiya political cauldron, there are winners and losers.

Winner include Strelkov; losers include Borodai, Pushilin and (by implication) their Kremlin sponsor Kurgin'an.

karl1haushofer, July 18, 2014 at 2:38 pm

I have been reading at news and comment sections in Finland. Finland is one of the most russophobic countries in the world, but the current vile hatred towards Russia is something that I have never witnessed in my life.

(Finnish media is also brutally censoring any pro-Russian comments right now. I tried to send three different comments in civilized language to Helsingin Sanomat comment section. All of them were pre-censored. I didn't see many other pro-Russian comments there either so apparently they are censoring all pro-Russian comments there.)

Shooting down that civilian plane was a struck of evil genius by the West.

1. It greatly further discredited the resistance forces of Novorussia.
2. It greatly further demonized Russia. Mainstream media is having a field day and comment sections are filling from comments which many basically demand to "destroy" Russia.
3. It gives NATO a causus belli to directly get involved in Ukraine.
4. It will be a lot more pressure to the EU to isolate Russia.
5. It installed a great deal of hatred towards Russia among the general western population.

If you look at this terror act purely strategically it was just genius. Evil but genius.

After seeing all this hatred and rage towards Russia I am confident that we will see a war in my lifetime. My generations (I'm in my 30s) of Finns and younger absolutely hate Russia. This is not an understatement. In comparison most of young Finns were cheering when the USA invaded Iraq. We have chosen our side. We will always back the enemy of Russia whether it was Nazi Germany or the United States. This is a feature that can never be changed. Finland is and will always be hostile towards Russia and do it's part to weaken/destroy Russia when given a chance.

Russia should prepare for a war. Both military and economic war. The West is out to get Russia. The shooting of the airplane is an escalation of the warfare against Russia. They want to split Russia into several parts. They want to remove Russia's nuclear weapons. They want to destroy any industry that is in Russia (especially the arms industry). They want to fully control Russian oil and gas (and transfer the profits out of Russia). They want to make Russian people poor and miserable. They want to humiliate Russia. They hate Russia and they want to see bad things happen to it. They eventually want to make Russian people extinct and have an empty land full of natural riches and resources. This is what they want.

What should Russia do?

Hopefully the Russian leadership finally realizes what kind of people it is facing. These are murderous, totally amoral and extremely powerful and intelligent enemies. They are not Russian partners. They are enemies. So stop calling them partners and call them what they are, enemies.

Also,

• Stop sending your children to western schools (yes, I'm looking at you Sergei Lavrov).
• Stop sending your money to western banks.
• Stop buying western real estate.
• Stop going to West as tourists.
• Stop buying western made products unless it is absolutely necessary
• Get rid of the oligarchs (at least those who transfer money out of Russia)
• Stop destroying your chemical and nuclear weapons arsenal!!! Whatta hell is Russia doing anyway? Russia needs all of it's stock of WMD right now.
• Increase your support to Novorussian resistance forces.

Russia cannot retreat anymore since an open warfare has been declared against it.

karl1haushofer, July 18, 2014 at 3:00 pm

Right now I am not sure that Russia is strong enough to face the coming assault (media, economic, terrorist and military assault).

The 20th century killed too many Russians. Especially the best Russians. The Bolsheviks persecuted and murdered hundreds of thousands of Russian nobility, industrialists, farmers etc. People who were the best and brightest of the nation.

Then came the civil war and a great famine of between 1918 and 1925. Again, millions of people killed.

Then came the Great Patriotic War. It was a great victory for the nation, but again almost 30 million people killed. Most of them young. The bravest young men were sacrificed in the front against the Nazis. This had to be done to save the country, but the cost was astronomical.

Then came the breakup of the country in 1991 after decades of failed economic policies and pure idiocy (like supporting Eastern European nations that hate Russia with free oil and gas). After the breakup of the country again millions of best and brightest of the Russians emigrated, left the country. Another huge loss of human capital. Russia was split in many parts. Russia was separated from the Baltics, Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan. Russia lost whole industries and valuable ports to these new independent countries.

Russia HAD the potential to become the most powerful country on the earth that also can provide it's population with a good standard of living. That potential existed in 1914 before Russia entered the First World War.

After that it has been a big catastrophe after another for the country. These catastrophes ate the resources and the potential of the country and made it's gene pool worse. Russia did achieve many great things (winning the war against the Nazis, putting the first man to space, developing a nuclear weapon) but in a long run the costs were too high for the country. Those catastrophes had weakened Russia too much for it to be able to compete against the United States and Western Europe who never faced such catastrophes and enriched themselves with imperialist colonial policies and slave labor. Eventually the Soviet Union collapsed because it didn't have the capacity to compete.

The West sees Russia as a land full of resources that is occupied by people who must be removed. Russia has only one thing going for itself, the nukes. The nuclear weapon is the best thing that has happened to Russia since 1945. It has enabled Russia to last to this day.

yalensis, July 18, 2014 at 4:26 pm

Hi, Karl, I am just curious. (This is a friendly comment, please don't take it the wrong way.)
I am just curious, on a psychological level, why you are different in your views from the majority of Finns of your generation?

What were your formative experiences?

You don't need to reply, but I would be happy if you do.

patient observer, July 18, 2014 at 5:45 pm

While agreeing with your assessment of the intentions of the Western sociopaths class toward the Slavic Orthodox civilization, your obsession regarding a claimed genetic deficiency in the Slavic people is tiresome, offensive and without basis.

The Finnish hatred certainly includes a purported Russian genetic inferiority so is it not likely that you have simply adopted such as a core belief? Your monologue about the best and brightest either being murdered or fleeing Russia leaving nothing but human scum behind would be well accepted among Nazis and racists in any country.

You are proposing some sort of reverse natural selection where the mentally weak and physically deficient survive while the superior DNA dies or runs. Truly a unique theory. Yet, as pointed out earlier and unrefuted by you, genetically inferior Russian kids born in the late 90′s and early 00′s kick the butts of your oh-so-superior Western kids in math and science. Please offer an explanation.

Yalensis had a similar question but I add to it regarding your belief that Russian are profoundly damaged humans yet you seem to have a genuine concern over their fate. Something does not add up.

ThatJ, July 18, 2014 at 3:28 pm

Ok, I decided to make a dedicated post to this Skillt moron. Mark said:

***
Ummmm….is Mr. Skillt aware that eastern Ukrainians are white? And that shooting white people is an ineffective technique for ensuring the survival of the "white race"?
***

Mikael Skillt is a moron and an enemy of nationalism. How, you might ask. He's fighting alongside Nazis, for a Nazi regime. No way he's an enemy of nationalism then! One would think that people like him are better informed regarding the eclipse of the European nation states and the Anglosphere. Unfortunately, Mr. Skillt has a primitive understanding of the realities. He thinks of Russia in terms of the Soviet Union, i.e. communist, and 'connect the dots' that this is the same communism that is destroying his native Sweden.

First of all, Sweden is not a victim of communist Russian Stalinism, but of communist American Trotskyism. Many American Trotskyites became leading figures of the neocon 'right' decades ago. Two readings are in order to understand this very real difference:
http://www.counter-currents.com/2013/03/stalins-fight-against-international-communism/
http://www.counter-currents.com/2013/02/trotsky-stalin-and-the-cold-war/

In March of this year, after the coup took place, the author of the above pieces wrote an article dealing with Ukraine:
…[T]his praise of Ukrainian nationalism by Brzezinski is odd coming from someone who has spent decades, since his days as a young academic, condemning nationalism and asserting that international capitalism, founded upon a globalist elite that transcends territorial borders, is the next phase of historical evolution in a dialectical process. Brzezinski does not even believe in "independent nationhood." He believes that it is passé.[10] However it is the line followed by all the other mouthpieces of globalization, including the USA and the E.U., and all the pontificators at the United Nations, who are condemning Russia and upholding this "Ukrainian nationhood." None, of course, are champions of nationalism, which they regard as anathema. It is another means of undermining Russia as the primary state that remains in the way of the "brave new world," or the "new world order" as it has been called. Hence, "nationalism" is only used as a dialectical strategy as part of a globalist agenda.

Brzezinski also alludes to what is the real bugbear of the globalists: the fear that Russia will lead a Eurasian bloc which, we might add, would also find allies across the world, from India, to Venezuela to Syria;[11] hence the simultaneous actions against the latter two states, fomented by the same forces that are backing the situation in the Ukraine. Brzezinski, as a principal spokesman for the globalists, talks of an "expansion of Europe." Brzezinski openly states that the globalists want the Ukraine to be part of the E.U. as the start of a process that will integrate Russia also. He states that this is the wave of the future, and that a Russia-led "Eurasian union" will fail. However, if the E.U. represented a truly independent third force, it would have been targeted as avidly by the globalists as Russia and the previous Soviet bloc. Unfortunately, the E.U. has not emerged as a third force, but as an appendage of U.S. foreign policy, and its position on the present Ukraine situation is yet another example of this.
http://www.counter-currents.com/2014/03/geopolitics-and-oligarchy-in-the-ukraine-crisis/

Does this "European Union", whose capitol Brussels is on the verge of becoming minority European, truly represent "Europe" that the Maidanites want so badly to be part of? Isn't an European Union without Europeans worthless? In a sense, isn't Ukraine more European than France, Belgium and England - demographically and geographically? Or is this Europeanness an abstrat idea, a social construct? The EU, the media and the Zionists want you to think so. Just like they tell us that America is historically a 'proposition nation' devoid of any ethnic or religious core (an idea advanced by Jews, which is, for most of the country's existence until 1965, patently false. Look no further than the first immigration law passed by the Framers soon after the Declaration of Independence and of the American demographics and immigration laws until 1965).

Look at the demographics of the post-Soviet states in Europe.

Now look at the demographics of the "free West".

Draw your own conclusion. Did the Zionist Anglo-American bloc or the Russian-led bloc preserve the demographics better? Save for the historic gypsy population of some eastern European countries, the demographics are still continental European.

Meanwhile, Mohammed (and its variations) is the most common name for babies born in London. The English are a dying people and are expected to become a minority in England before 2050. This figure, 2050, is very optimistic, 2040 is a more realistic date. The European French are <80% of the population and the babies born the last year are up to 35% minority. This is a ticking demographic bomb. Note that I said "European French", so here other European nationalities besides the native ethnic French are included as well.

The Netherlands, England, West Germany (East is still amazingly European), Italy, Spain, Portugal, now Ireland (things are changing really fast in Ireland, for some reason the economically fragile country is being flooded by poorly skilled immigrants from Africa and the Middle East for the sake of displacement), Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Austria. These countries have been part of the 'free West' since the end of WWII. They all share self-hatred, a vicious media, an education system controlled by Trotskyites and they are all on the way to becoming minority-majority.

What about the 'authoritarian' east? Bulgaria, Croatia, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Serbia, Hungary, Romania, Ukraine(!), Slovakia, Czech Republic, Moldova etc, are not suffering the genocidal policies of the 'free West' post-WWII because they were ruled by the Soviet Union (Russia) until 1991. They 'missed' the 1945-91 period of social engineering of Critical Theory, white privilege, self-hatred, pseudo-humanism and other anomalies - all the products of Trotskyism (Jewish activism) imported/exported from America.

A reading of this review of Kevin MacDonald's The Culture of Critique will explain my opposition to the Zionist 'Anglo-American' bloc:
http://www.heretical.com/miscellx/culturec.html

This Mikael Skillt is not a nationalist. He's a thug attracted to violence. His native country is a huge mess.

That the 'West' goes to great length in suppressing the opposition to racial replacement and expressions of racial solidarity, including with laws that can deprive you of your liberty for speaking heretical views, and that in Ukraine they do a 180 and instigate the Ukrainians to hate brotherly Slavs, undisguisable from ethnic Ukrainians, is a testimony to the evil nature of this 'Western' elite. Stoking hatred between Europeans, suppressing the hatred between Europeans and non-Europeans whilst displacing them and eventually doing away with their very existence.

Warren, July 18, 2014 at 3:52 pm

Heretical.com? I haven't been there for over 10 years.

Kevin MacDonald is a true disciple of the late William Pierce.

Southerncross,July 18, 2014 at 4:05 pm

William Pierce's political program was for race war and the reduction of the American population to 50 million.

Pierce's novel 'The Turner Diaries' explains in some detail how this is to be accomplished. The liberal use of atom bombs and machetes is involved.

I do not think Kevin MacDonald is in favour of these things.

Warren,July 18, 2014 at 4:40 pm

Pierce wrote a fictional book "The Turner Diaries" under the pseudonym Andrew MacDonald. However Pierce never advocated violence, I use to listen to his broadcasts American Dissident Voices and read the transcripts on NatVan/NatAll.com from 2000 to 2002 when he died.

Pierce, was a true intellectual, commenting on current affairs, providing analysis and exposing the Zionist power structure in the US. Every year he and his comrades in the National Alliance would publish report detailing who owns US media companies.

Kevin MacDonald has the same facts based cerebral approach of William Pierce in documenting and exposing the Zionist power structure.

ThatJ,July 18, 2014 at 5:11 pm

MacDonald reminds me of Pierce in so far as the sincere discussion of taboo subjects is concerned. Mearsheimer and Walt discuss the power of the Zionists in directing American foreign policy. Internal policies pursued by the lobby are not touched upon. Mearsheimer and Walt are moderate critics of the lobby, and so is MacDonald. The former exposes the foreign policy, and the latter the internal policy.

Pierce is more of a Bobby Fischer in his approach to Jews.

ThatJ,July 18, 2014 at 4:49 pm

Although it's a heretical.com link, the review was originally published in the American Renaissance magazine.

Kevin MacDonald was a leftist student during the 60s counter-culture revolution. He later changed, and I don't think he has much in common with the late William Pierce. MacDonald still teaches at the university, but he and the university staff are constantly harassed by the SPLC. This harassment includes many failed attempts at getting him fired. Pierce, a physics professor, stopped teaching in the 60s:

I have never read 'The Turner Diaries' that southerncross mentions below, even though I do know about its existence. I did read some scripts from Pierce's many radio broadcasts. He was clearly radical.

Btw, recently the SPLC came up with a new schtick to attack 'the man': border vigilant. Guess who it's aimed at? Why, at anyone who thinks the US must follow

Warren,July 18, 2014 at 3:53 pm

Published on 17 Jul 2014
Subscribe to VICE News here: http://bit.ly/Subscribe-to-VICE-News

Today, a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet carrying 295 people was shot down - allegedly by pro-Russia separatists - in eastern Ukraine, dramatically changing the scope of Ukraine's months-long conflict.

On Wednesday, VICE News correspondent Simon Ostrovsky spoke to US Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt, who said he has no doubt Russia is arming the separatists, effectively encouraging the escalation of the fighting.

Follow @simonostrovsky on Twitter here: https://twitter.com/SimonOstrovsky

Watch all of VICE News' coverage of the conflict in Ukraine here: http://bit.ly/1j0tCKk

Check out the VICE News beta for more: http://vicenews.com

Follow VICE News here:
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Warren,July 18, 2014 at 4:51 pm

The Malaysia Airliner Downing Through The Eyes Of Russian State Television

http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-media-mh17-airline-crash-coverage-malaysia/25462227.html

Warren,July 18, 2014 at 4:52 pm

Podcast: A Tragedy And A Turning Point

It was the day the Russia-Ukraine crisis went global, claiming the lives of nearly 300 people from at least 12 nations spanning across five continents.

Details are still emerging about the downing of a Malaysian Airlines passenger jetliner in eastern Ukraine on July 17, apparently by a surface-to-air missile.

But the circumstantial evidence is mounting - and appears to point to separatist culpability.

And what had been a localized conflict has suddenly, and dramatically, become a major threat to international security.

Will the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 be a game changer in the months-long conflict between Russia and Ukraine? And if so, how?

On the latest Power Vertical Podcast, I discuss this issue with Mark Galeotti, a professor at New York University, an expert on Russia's security services, and author of the blog "In Moscow's Shadows;" and Kirill Kobrin, editor of the Moscow-based history and sociology magazine "Neprikosnovenny zapas."

Enjoy…

http://www.rferl.org/content/podcast-a-tragedy-and-a-turning-point/25462387.html

yalensis, July 18, 2014 at 5:10 pm

This is interesting.
Vice President of Malaysian Airlines, whose name, for some reason is called "Heib the Gorter" gave a press conference in Amsterdam, in which he stated the following:

According to the flight plan, the plane was supposed to fly at 10.66 km. However, Ukrainian dispatchers requested the plane fly lower, at 10.05 km.

Presumably this lower altitude would have made the plane more vulnerable to attack from the ground.

[Jul 18, 2014] Ukraine's Security Service Has Confiscated Air Traffic Control Recordings With Malaysian Jet

"Cui Bono?" is the classic question which those days are never asked by Western MSM, let alone Investigated . Junta gained from the horrible tragedy. Seps and Russia were the big propaganda losers from this tragedy.

Zero Hedge

Earlier, when we commented in the abnormality in the flight path of flight MH-17 we said that "perhaps before coming to "certain" conclusion about the involvement of this rebel or that, the key questions one should ask before casting blame, is why did the pilot divert from his usual flight plan, why did he fly above restricted airspace, and just what, if any instructions, did Kiev air control give the pilot in the minutes before the tragic explosion?"

The simple answer would have come if Ukraine had merely released the Air Traffic Control recording from the tower and flight MH 17, something Malaysia did in the aftermath of the disappearance of flight MH 370, which at last check has still not been uncovered.

It now appears that answer will not be forthcoming because as the BBC reports "Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency."

What happens to the recordings next is completely unknown. What is known is that any hope of getting an undoctored explanation why the plane flew as it did, or what the pilots may have seen or said in the moments before the explosion, is forever gone.

It also means that any hope of actually working with facts instead of emotional appeals, and getting to the bottom of the Malaysian airline tragedy, resides in what may be recorded by the black box, whose location right now is now exactly clear. From the Independent ....

[Jul 18, 2014] The Final Moments Of Flight MH-17 The Russian Side Of The Story

Zero Hedge

Yesterday, we laid out extensively what the official Ukrainian case was when it came to "proof" that Russian separatists had launched the Buk missile which allegedly took down flight MH-17; we also highlighted several glaring inconsistencies and questions that still remained open after the "incriminatory" YouTube clip release. So far, any international response has been muted to this hastily prepared evidence of Russian involvement, although the day is still young.

So what about the Russian side? Below we present the key arguments made by Russia to suggest that not it, but Ukraine, was responsible for taking down the Malaysian Boeing.

As reported earlier by RIA, the Russian Defense Ministry says it had intercepted the activity of a Ukrainian radar system on the day the Malaysian plane went down in eastern Ukraine, the ministry's press service said Friday.

"Throughout the day on July 17, Russian means of radar surveillance intercepted the operation of the Buk-M1 battery's Kupol radar station located in the region of the populated area of Styla [30 kilometers south of Donetsk]," the press service said in a statement.

"The technical capabilities of the Buk-M1 allow the exchange of data on air targets between batteries of one battalion. Thus, the launch of rockets could have also occurred from any of the batteries deployed in the populated area of Avdeevka [8 kilometers north of Donetsk] or from Gruzsko-Zoryanskoe [25 kilometers east of Donetsk]," the ministry said.

Latina Lover

Memo from NWO:

You mean Russians will be allowed to give their side of the story?

This cannot be allowed. We need WW3 to reputiate national debts and kill off the useless eaters. How else are we going to convince the sheeple to commit mass suicide while we get even richer?

Gaius Frakkin' ...

Isn't it interesting how Russian state media presents precise details and facts while USSA state media whips up vague generalizations appealing to emotion.

BaBaBouy

The Big QUESTION IS: Who Sent That Doomed Plane Over The Center Of THE WAR ZONE ?????

Its The At THe Heart Of This Tradgedy AND Pretty Fucking Clear...

One Wonders, Is Anyone Sending A Civil Plane To Fly Over GAZA Today???

pods

I got a question, we killed like a million non-combatants in Iraq, why is 300 dead here a big deal?

I mean, it sucks, but in the big scheme of things we (the US for all those arguers) probably kills this many innocents in a month RIGHT NOW.

pods

nope-1004

You're right, it's not a big deal in reality but in the media it is because the picture being painted is one of a radical Russian gov't that shot down a civilian airliner. US media is playing with your emotions. In Iraq the picture painted was some wonderful freedom fighting Merikans liberating a nation of its oil.... I mean, dictator.

"Humanitarian efforts" always make people back a movement, even if the underlying reasons (oil, USD reserve status) are not fully disclosed.

CognacAndMencken

I'm really astonished how the utopian libertarians in the comments section of ZeroHedge are such ardent supporters of Russia's newest dictator. You guys bash/hate America, the western economic system, American workers, American corporations - basically everything American - and you guys LOVE Putin. Serious MAN-crush. I remember a ZH article about Putin some time ago showing pictures of Putin with guns and hunting and doing sporting events, and you guys were LUSTING after him. *LOL* Unreal. Who would have ever guessed that libertarians would sympathize with Russian dictators? A few years ago at ZH, this was unheard of.....

angel_of_joy

ZH readers still have a somewhat reasonable amount of common sense, and like to think with their own brains regardless what media is force feeding them.

Which is not something that can be said about you, for one thing... Too much cognac, I

Herd Redirection Committee

In the Putin/Obama game, yes, ZH loves Putin. How could you not?

Thats as far as it goes. I think the average Russian and the average American have more in common with each other than they do with their respective 'leaders'.

NoPantsSpongeBob

I think the whole thing is a distraction from Gaza conflict.

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/18/glenn_greenwald_why_did_nbc_pull

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/cnn-reporter-calls-israelis-cheeri...

nmewn

The simple fact is, "the separatists" don't have an air force for the Ukrainians to target. This was an accidental shoot down by the Russian side, what the plane was doing that far east is the only mystery.

Kapital Xposure

the BUK missile system doesnt just use 1 truck as widely reported, it needs multiple trucks in triangulation to be able to work and target anything at those altitudes, all trucks need skilled operators to work in unison to fire a missile and hit a target.

so captuing just a BUK unit on its own is not really a problem, but having the entire portable system in place with all units working together means you control that airspace up to 40,000 easily

so how did these rebels get hold of the entire system and where did they get the technicians skilled enough in running a complex ground to air system like this?

we lost 9 people from melbourne australia here alone, 27 all up from australia, the russians to be killing australians is not something we are liking right now, and i want nothing more than to find all of those responsible, from the top down to the bottom.. and drop them out of a plane at 32,000 feet and give them the same chance they gave the children from melbourne they murdered.

RIP and we will not forget the deaths of the children father and mothers that were murdered.

topshelfstuff

The Spanish air controller confirms a conflict between the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of the Interior intimating that the order concerning the downing of the aircraft came from the Ministry of the Interior, which is dominated by Svoboda and Right Sector.

'This Kiev air traffic controller is a citizen of Spain and was working in the Ukraine. He was taken off duty as a civil air-traffic controller along with other foreigners immediately after a Malaysia Airlines passenger aircraft was shot down over the Eastern Ukraine killing 295 passengers and crew on board.

He also said that the MH17 flight was escorted by Ukrainian fighter jets minutes before it was downed. It is worth noting that the presence of the Ukraine fighter jets reported by the Spanish air traffic controller was confirmed by eyewitness reports in the Donetsk region:

[Jul 18, 2014] Was Ukraine's Ministry of Interior behind the Downing of Malaysian Airlines MH17 By Prof Michel Chossudovsky

July 18, 2014 | Global Research

A division of Buk missile systems of the Ukrainian Armed Forces was, according to Pravda, deployed to the Donetsk Oblast on July 15, two days before the downing of the Malaysian airlines MH17 flight. The Buk missile system has the capabilities of downing an aircraft flying at 35,000 feet.

While the Pravda report remains to be confirmed, Russian Defense sources confirm the presence of several missile batteries in the Donesk oblast operated by the Ukraine armed forces:

'The Ukrainian military has several batteries of Buk surface-to-air missile systems with at least 27 launchers, capable of bringing down high-flying jets, in the Donetsk region where the Malaysian passenger plane crashed, Russian Defense Ministry said"(RT, July 17, 2014)

Of significance, the Prosecutor General of Ukraine Vitaliy Yarema confirmed that the Donesk rebels do not have Buk or S 300 ground to air missiles which could have downed the plane.

According to the Kiev Post report: "Ukrainian prosecutor general says militants did not seize Ukrainian air defense launchers"

Members of illegal armed units have not seized air defense launchers of the Ukrainian Armed Forces in Donetsk, Ukrainian Prosecutor General Vitaliy Yarema said. (Kiev Post)

Yarema also confirmed that according to military sources:

"After the passenger airliner was downed, the military reported to the president that terrorists do not have our air defense missile systems Buk and S-300," (quoted by Itar-Tass).

This disclaimer is pro forma. It comes from official sources and can easily be reversed at a later date as part of the propaganda campaign directed against the Donbass rebels.

Yet what appears to be contradictory in these various statements is that immediately after the downing of MH17, an adviser to the Ukrainian Minister of Internal Affairs Mr. Anton Gerashchenko stated categorically that the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 MH17:

"had been downed by an air defense missile system Buk" (without however mentioning who was behind the missile operation)

According to the Ukraine Interfax News Agency Anton Gerashchenko, "said on Facebook that the plane was flying at an altitude of 33,000 feet when it was hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher." According to the Strait Times:

Mr Gerashchenko was quoted as saying: "A civilian airliner travelling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur has just been shot down by a Buk anti-aircraft system… 280 passengers and 15 crew have been killed."

How could he have known what type of missile system had brought down the plane? His statement contradicts that of the Ukrainian military.

Gerashchenko runs a ministry of interior propaganda program at the www.stopterror.in.ua website. See also http://uacrisis.org/anton-gerashhenko/

[Jul 18, 2014] Sifting through the wreckage of MH17, searching for sense amid the horror by Jonathan Freedland

"news is to the mind what sugar is to the body"

The Guardian

In the face of events from Ukraine to Gaza, we want to believe that the world is not a place of uncontrollable catastrophe

Any journalist should hesitate before saying this, but news can be bad for you. You don't have to agree with the analyst who reckons "news is to the mind what sugar is to the body" to see that reading of horror and foreboding hour by hour, day after day, can sap the soul. This week ended with a double dose, administered within the space of a few hours: Israel's ground incursion into Gaza and, more shocking because entirely unexpected, the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 over Ukraine, killing all 298 on board

The different responses these events stir in those of us who are distant, and the strategies we devise to cope with them, say much about our behaviour as consumers of news. But they also go some way to determining our reaction as citizens, as constituent members of the amorphous body we call public, or even world, opinion.

As I write, 18 of the 20 most-read articles on the Guardian website are about MH17. The entry into Gaza by Israeli forces stands at number 21. It's not hard to fathom why the Malaysian jet strikes the louder chord. As the preacher might put it, "There but for the grace of God go I." Stated baldly, most of us will never live in Gaza, but we know it could have been us boarding that plane in Amsterdam.

Which is why there is a morbid fascination with tales of the passenger who changed flights at the last minute, thereby cheating death, or with the crew member who made the opposite move, hastily switching to MH17 at the final moment, taking a decision that would have seemed so trivial at the time but which cost him his life. When we read about the debris – the holiday guidebooks strewn over the Ukrainian countryside, the man found next to an iPhone, the boy with his seatbelt still on – our imaginations put us on that flight. Of course we have sympathy for the victims and their families. But our fear is for ourselves.

The reports from Gaza stir a different feeling. When we read the Guardian's Peter Beaumont describe the sights he saw driving around the strip on Friday morning – three Palestinian siblings killed by an Israeli artillery shell that crashed into their bedroom, a father putting the remains of his two-year-old son into a plastic shopping bag – we are shaken by a different kind of horror. It is compassion for another human being, someone in a situation utterly different to ours. We don't worry that this might happen to us, as we now might when we contemplate an international flight over a war zone. Our reaction is directed not inward, but outward.

Unrepresented, 18 July 2014 8:20pm

When we get all but a full cavity search in order to board a passenger plane why do they allow a commercial airliner to fly over a war zone. This one is down to our own authorities that plane should never have been there.

jefferd -> Unrepresented , 18 July 2014 8:38pm

So they were asking for it were they ?

Rialbynot -> Unrepresented , 18 July 2014 8:44pm

That's my view too.

Also, if the West had urged Ukraine to go for the federalisation option, there would be no "separatists" in the east.

Ever since independence in 1991, Ukraine has been pretending that it can be a second France - a unitary state imposing a single national identity on all its various ethnic and religious groups.
This is why Ukraine has been so dysfunctional, because what France achieved in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries -- national unification and ethnic harmonisation -- cannot be repeated in the early twenty-first century by Ukraine.

A far better governance model for Ukraine would have been (would be) the Federal Republic of Germany.
Pity the US leadership has been too dumb to point this out to Kiev.

[Jul 18, 2014] The Vineyard of the Saker Evidence Continues to Emerge

The Vineyard of the Saker

RESUME OF ANALYSIS: What all this means is that if a BUK rocket was launched from the territory controlled by the Militia, the Boeing would have fallen much further to the south-east – i.e. will into the Russian territory. Otherwise, there would have been not time to detect the aircraft, perform electronic capture and launch the rocket. If this was a BUK, and not a jet fighter, then it is most likely that the launch was made from the territory controlled by the Ukrainian army, and the rocket was sent "chasing after" the airplane.

Original: 4yma3iy LiveJournal

I am not an aerodynamics specialist. I am a radioelectronics expert. Nevertheless, I specialize in aviation. If there are aerodynamics specialists here, please critique away.

Initial Data: the plane's elevation is 10,000 metres, speed is 900 km/h (or 250 m/s).

Judging from the photos from the site of the crash, where all the pieces lie together in one place, it appears that the plane fell as a whole (i.e. some fragments may have broken off, but the fuselage remained intact). So, the aircraft well "as one piece" – i.e. it did not break apart in the air.

Accordingly, it must be considered as one body, the speed of which has a very large dependence on air resistance, particularly given the design features and its intended use.

The time of a body's free fall:

T = sqrt(2h/g)

Thus, from a height of 10,000 metres, a body will fall:

T = sqrt(2*10000/9.8) = 45 second – HOWEVER! – this applies only in vacuum.

At the same time, the downward velocity when falling from this height is:

V = sqrt(2gh)

This speed will equal 442 m/s – HOWEVER! – this, once again, applies only in vacuum.

In real-life conditions a fall happens with a certain maximum speed, at which the force of air resistance becomes equal to the force of gravity. For a person's body, for instance, this speed is equal to 40 m/s. For a bullet, this speed is approximately 50 m/s (depending on form and mass). Given the plane's mass and its enormous size, let's take this speed to be 40 m/s.

Accordingly, the plane would have been falling approximately 250 second – let's round it off to 4 minutes, which is quite close to what happened.

Let's accept that the reduction of horizontal speed also occurs pursuant to a linear equation with certain acceleration.

The vector of the force of front air resistance is directed against the speed of movement, and its magnitude is proportional to characteristic area S, density of the environment ρ, and speed V squared:

V=C((P*V^2)/2)*S

For the aerodynamically well-designed body of an aircraft, Cx < 0.3

Let's calculate the force of air resistance at the speed of 250 m/s

0.3*1.26*250*250/2*50=590кН

The mass of Boeing 777 = 300 ton (in equipped state)

It means that horizontal deceleration due to air resistance would be 590/300 = 2 m/s^2 – just as I suspected (however, this is at the maximum speed).

Now, let's take our favourite highschool equation:

X=(V1^2-V0^2)/2a

Given the nonlinear nature of deceleration, divide it in half – and we get 31 kilometres.

Let's consider the strike distance of the rocket. Maximum strike distance of AGM-86 ALSM rocket:

At the height of 30 m – 20 km
At the height of 6,000 m – 26 km
The chance of a successful strike: 0.6 – 0.8

This distance should not be mistaken for the distance of detection.

Map: Yellow Pin to the West = Estimated Rocket Launch Location; Yellow Pin To the East = Crash Site (not included --NNB)

What all this means is that if a BUK rocket was launched from the territory controlled by the Militia, the Boeing would have fallen much further to the south-east – i.e. well into the Russian territory. Otherwise, there would have been no time to detect the aircraft, perform electronic capture and launch the rocket.

If this was a BUK, and not a jet fighter, then it is most likely that the launch was made from the territory controlled by the Ukrainian army, and the rocket was sent "chasing after" the airplane.

[Jul 18, 2014] Kiev deployed powerful anti-air systems to E. Ukraine ahead of the Malaysian plane crash

July 17, 2014 | RT News

"According to the Russian Defense Ministry information, units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine located in the crash-site are equipped with anti-aircraft missile systems of "Buk-M1" ... These complexes in their tactical and technical characteristics are capable of detecting air targets at ranges of up to 160 kilometers and hit them at full altitude range at a distance of over 30 kilometers," the ministry's statement reads as cited by Ria.

... ... ...

There's no way that the self-defense forces in Donetsk Region are in possession of such complex weaponry, he stressed. Only S-300 and Buk surface-to-air missile systems are capable of hitting targets at such altitude, the source said.

Buk is a family of self-propelled, medium-range surface-to-air missile systems developed by the former USSR and Russia to engage targets at an engagement altitude of 11,000-25,000 meters depending on the model.

Chances are high that the Malaysian plane was really downed by the Ukrainian anti-aircraft defense, Yury Karash, pilot and aviation expert, told RT.

"A Boeing-777 is an extremely reliable piece of machinery. Modern planes don't just crash with no reason," he said. "Let us recall how a Ukrainian missile downed Russian TU-154 aircraft ten years ago. I can't completely exclude the possibility the Boeing-777 was also hit by a missile."

"I don't know who could've shot it down. But I can allege that it was most likely the Ukrainian armed forces: simply because its military – anti-aircraft defense, in particular – are, unfortunately, unqualified. As judging by the overall state of the Ukrainian armed forces, insufficient attention has been paid to their training," Karash added.

Reports in the Western media hurried to blame the self-defense forces of the People's Republic of Donetsk for bringing the plane down.

The claims were denied by the representatives of the Donetsk People's Republic, saying that it's the Ukrainian military, which destroyed the aircraft.

"We simply don't have such air defense systems. Our man-portable air defense systems have a firing range 3,000 - 4,000 meters. The Boeing was flying at a much higher altitude," Sergey Kavtaradze, special representative for the prime minister of the Donetsk People's Republic, explained.

Kavtaradze also expressed condolences to the relatives of all of those who lost their lives in the tragedy.

IHS Jane's Defense analyst, Nick de Larrinaga, also shared the belief that the self-defense forces lack the capability to bring the Malaysian plane down.

"At normal cruising altitude a civilian passenger aircraft would be out of the range of the sort of manned portable air (defense) systems that we have seen proliferate in rebel hands in east Ukraine," he said in a statement.

But the aircraft would be within range of Buk or other medium-range surface-to-air missile systems, he stressed.

"Both Russia and Ukraine have such SAM systems in their inventories," the expert added.

It seems unlikely that the self-defense forces could've used Buk surface-to-air missile systems to down the Malaysian plane, retired Brig. Gen. Kevin Ryan, the director of the Defense and Intelligence Project at the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs, said.

"It takes a lot of training and a lot of coordination to fire one of these and hit something," he told CNN. "This is not the kind of weapon a couple of guys are going to pull out of a garage and fire."

According to Ryan, if the plane was really taken down then it was done by a professional military force.

[Jul 17, 2014] Missile destroys Malaysia Airlines plane over Ukraine, killing 298 people

The Guardian

The huge loss of life threatens to have wide-ranging and unpredictable consequences, coming just after the US imposed further sanctions on Russia for continuing to provide weapons to the rebels. Defence and security experts said the Russian-made Buk surface-to-air missile system, known to be in the hands of pro-Russia fighters in Ukraine, was most likely used.

"This was not an 'incident', this was not a 'catastrophe', this was a terrorist act," said Ukraine's president, Petro Poroshenko.

... Putin chaired a meeting on the Russian economy which began with a minute's silence, and laid the blame for the crash at Ukraine's door: "There is no doubt that the nation over whose airspace this happened bears responsibility for the terrible tragedy," he said.

US government officials confirmed to media outlets that a surface-to-air missile brought down the plane. US intelligence was reportedly still working to determine the exact location from which the missile was fired, and whether it was on the Russian or the Ukrainian side of the border.

Rebels in the self-declared Donetsk and Luhansk people's republics have shot down several Ukrainian planes and helicopters in recent weeks. But they insisted they had no part in the downing of MH17, claiming instead that Ukrainian fire was responsible.

... ... ...

Questions were being raised as to why Malaysia Airlines had continued to fly over such a volatile region, where separatists were known to be shooting at aircraft. Qantas, the Australian carrier, said it had been steering clear of the area by 400 nautical miles for several months. Malaysia Airlines said after the crash that it had altered its flight paths and other airlines either did likewise or emphasised they had already been taking alternative routes.

Selected Comments

marcolo, 17 July 2014 9:13pm

Apparently separatists were bragging on Twitter about shooting down another Ukrainian military plane. Wonder if there's any truth to this. It certainly does look like a catastrophic blunder. If it was the separatists with covert help from Russia, I can't see how Putin can wriggle out of it.

nfnfnf -> marcolo, 17 July 2014 9:21pm

Do we think the CIA can't hack peoples twitter accounts?

smingy, 17 July 2014 9:14pm

I'm sure that all sides will point the finger as usual, forgetting the fact that 295 innocent people have lost their lives over some pathetic feud.

jodro -> smingy, 17 July 2014 10:13pm

Indeed. And one more thing: could we please have slightly less Anglo-Saxon-centred reporting please? The article states...

US authorities were working to determine whether American citizens were

yet one look at a Dutch newspaper web site reveals that at least 154 Dutch people died. Last I checked The Netherlands were a neighbouring country, also in Europe. It would grace The Guardian (and I expect other UK news outlets will have the same Anglo-Saxon bias) to report on this aspect of this horrible event as well.

Marko Raos -> smingy, 17 July 2014 11:32pm

I wouldn't call a full blown civil war "some pathetic feud." However tragic this event may be, lets keep some sense of proportion. For people fighting and dying down there on the ground, for their country and way of life, whatever it may be, this is not some "pathetic feud."
Your comment is insulting to both ukraininans and russians.

timbercrown -> AimfortheGoal , 18 July 2014 12:56am

Please take note all you apologists and propagandists for from both sides who will soon be crowding these pages with absurd and conspiratorial claims and counter-claims. You are so pathetic.

And then watch, before very long they will lay blame with the US government and the CIA instead of taking responsibility for their own mess.

Make feeble attempt at taking the high moral ground and then proceed to defend the US.

WaitroseWarrior , 17 July 2014 9:15pm

i think they mistook it for fighter jet

szymon -> WaitroseWarrior , 17 July 2014 9:35pm

You can't mistake a commercial airliner for a fighter jet. Different speed, different altitude, different radar profile.

hertsred -> szymon, 17 July 2014 9:39pm

Tell that to the Iranians who died on a commercial jet when USS Vincennes mistook them for an Iranian fighter.

[Jul 17, 2014] Who shot down Malaysian Airlines flight MH17

Spectator Blogs

allymax bruce -> james smith

Hi james smith; well, from the objective evidence we have to now. Nobody seen, or has reported, BUK missiles being fired from the ground; not one eye-witness, nor any time-dated videos/photos; only supposition reports of what could have 'reached' that far up into the sky. If that's the only evidence available, then I could say a meteor from outer space could have caused the downing of the plane. Outlandish as it is, it's just as plausible as a rogue BUK at this stage of evidence given. Now, taking into consideration it is a war zone, and that Kiev government troops/army have used their airforce fighter jets to bomb innocent civilians in many Self-Proclaimed Republics in East Ukraine, (FACT !) then I would say an aircraft was more likely than a meteor as the cause. Notwithstanding that, if it wasn't an aircraft, then a BUK missile could be the cause; but from who? Let's look at the evidence. Poroshenko's Kiev Government are proven murderers, thugs, and employ fascist Right Sector Nazi-thugs to 'do their dirty-work'; here-in lays the the most likely cause; they have 'committed' evil acts of

Bonkim

idiotic to route a passenger plane across a conflict zone.

FF42 > Bonkim

I would agree, but most airlines were flying as normal through the conflict zone. This includes Lufthansa and Air France. Malaysia Airlines was particularly unlucky that the missile hit them first, given their other recent crash.

I think airlines follow the guidance given by the Air Traffic Organisations, who gave the all clear for this area.

realfish > FF42

There was an interesting interview tonight with someone from 'Eurocontrol' the European organisation that manages European air traffic. He stated that as here had been no issues they considered it safe to overfly Ukraine.
When pressed on the routing and dangers, like a typical European bureaucrat, he absolved himself and his organisation of any responsibility, choosing to blame the nation states for the flight plans chosen by airlines.

Alexsandr -> realfish

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/...
oops

an ex-tory voter -> HookesLaw

There is no such thing as "safe" in a war zone.

The routing of civilian aircraft at any height through a war zone where surface to air missiles are known to be in use is no less than criminal negligence. Airlines use routes and heights as determined by national and international regulatory bodies and it is these who should be facing questions, not the luckless Malaysian Airline.

The EU was quick enough to act regarding volcanic ash, but seem to have considered SAMs a lesser threat to aircraft entering or leaving it's airspace.

As for the Ukranian authorities they are not in control on the ground and cannot therefore give any assurances regarding the safety of passenger aircraft transiting their airspace.

ArchiePonsonby > HookesLaw

What about that Ukrainian refusenik cowboy on the video gloating about "We told you not to fly in our air"? Think he might have had something to do with it? One thing is certain: the Yanks will have been watching this corner of the world intently recently, and they'll undoubtedly have shed-loads of intelligence which they'll drop on the world any minute now. Watch for some intense arse-covering by Vlad the Insaner!

allymax bruce > ArchiePonsonby

Why haven't you considerd 'the set-up', Archie?

Typical method of operation is to place false markers, that instigate a certain scenario, that work to compromise an objective thought process.

Everything you 'see' as 'markers of evidence', are only the scales over your own eyes.

Kennybhoy > Jambo25

Iran Air 655 and Libyan Arab Airlines Flight 114...?

And on our side of the Med. Air France Flight 1611 and Aerolinee Itavia Flight 870...?

And not to mention Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 shot down by a Ukranian SAM launched from Crimea...

Jambo25 > Kennybhoy •

So! The captain and executive officer of the USS Vincennes should have been charge with some form of homicide. However, the USA did admit culpability and paid out massive sums in compensation. The Libyan Plane flew into Israeli airspace, over the Dimona nuclear facility and after visual identification by IDF jets was ordered to land. For some reason the pilot didn't and was shot down. Post 9/11 we can possibly understand why.No one really knows what caused the Air France crash, nor the destruction of Aerolinee Atavia Flight 870. Lots of theories but no hard proof.
The Ukrainian authorities admitted to a mistake in shooting down the Siberian Airways plane fairly quickly after the incident and paid compensation. I notice you didn't mention KAL 007. The Russians tried to blame that on the Americans, Koreans etc: virtually anybody apart from their own Red Air Force. It took 15 years for them to release the black boxes from the plane.
Some of us can judge each incident on their own merits rather than stringing them together to aid 'whataboutery' in order to gain forgiveness for the side we seem to support.

jack

In the end this is the fault of the EU by destabilising the region and creating a conflict. Trying to entice Ukraine into the bosom of Europe without realising that they would be removing the buffer zone between us and Russia.

Russia were hardly going to accept this lying down, and so here we are- pro Russian goons given weapons they could not understand nor handle with care.

Bonkim -> jack

Spot on Jack that is what is called common sense which the EU Commissioners and US Ambassador did not have when they went around encouraging the Ukrainian neo-Nazis in Kiev distributing tea and biscuits.

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