Some protesters were killed in the building. that includes well know photo of a woman, who was supposal
strangulated. There are also multiple indirect evidence that some toxic substance was dispersed
in the building leading to death of many protesters against Kiev junta (which are conveniently called
pro-Russian separatists by Western MSM). One hypothesis is that it was chloroform.
Odessa massacre victims
died in seconds, not from smoke – emergency service chief — RT News
Bodelan was by the building when it was set on fire and said that even before the smoke spread
inside, he saw people leaning outside windows trying to take a breath of fresh air.
“I cannot explain why they were having such trouble breathing, but I am 100 percent sure that
it was not because of the smoke caused by the fire,” Bodelan said.
... ... ...
Local activists have noted that it could be a provocateur. In the media there were indications
that it could be a powerful opioid karfentanile used as an anesthetic for large animals. Officials
did not comment on karfentanile"
However, Russian experts doubted that chloroform could cause the death of so many people. In order
for dozens of people, even indoors to be poisoned to death by this substance, "it must be poured
into the extremely large quantities - many dozens, if not hundreds of gallons."
According to “official information,” six people died of gun shots, 32 suffocated or died
in the flames and another 10 fell to their deaths. Like was the case with
sniper-gate, Kiev has zero credibility as for conducting this investigation
so figures should be considered as created arbitrarily.
The RS goons and football ultras from Kharkov were sent to Odessa as part of Turchynov’s publicly
declared plan to reverse the spread of eastern separatism.
As the building burned, Ukrainian activists sang the Ukrainian national anthem, witnesses on both
sides said. They also hurled a new taunt: “Colorado” for the Colorado potato beetle, striped red
and black like the pro-Russian ribbons. Those outside chanted “burn Colorado, burn,” witnesses said.
Swastikalike symbols were spray painted on the building, along with graffiti reading “Galician SS,”
though it was unclear when it had appeared, or who had painted it.
Oligarch Kolomoisky also might had been involved. Most of the participants of pro-junta crowd were
not from Odessa. They were bussed to Odessa to implement specific, probably developed with the participation
of Parubiy, plan of eliminating pro-federalization protesters camp. And "hired guns" outperformed expectations
of their puppet musters.
The Guardian and NATO cannot admit that the attack on Odessa was a planned operation and
the deaths at the hand of the nazi attackers was a massacre.
It doesn't really fit in with the 'We are the Good Guys' vs. 'the Bad Russians' narrative if
we are supporting Nazi war criminals.
After this event Ukraine moves to Chile-style methods of suppressing dissidents. Methods similar
to used under the military government by Augusto Pinochet.
Police was probably bought out by organizers of the massacre and demonstrated total abrogation of
duty! The same is true about fire squads. They were not in a hurry. This should never have been allowed
to escalate to the point to which it did.
Wow, this looks more and more similar to Bangladesh Genocide of 1971. A legitimately elected
government being dismissed and unelected forces, supported by west taking over and oppressing
the people who voted against them. My ancestors suffered a lot in that 1971 tragedy, hopefully
people of Ukraine have a better fate.
My condolences to the people of Odessa. I’m just beyond disgusted with western politicians and western
media. Listening to Merkel and Obama praise Kiev for its ‘restraint’ in dealing with the south and east
and then threaten Russia with more sanctions while a mixture of football ultras and neo-Nazi mob pushes
people into a building and then kills them and burn the corpses – well, it’s beyond belief. But neo-Nazi
consider that to be normal and even the worthwhile achievement:
The Kiev phony government must be held to account, and punished for its crimes, though. No
“we just didn’t know” excuses can be accepted – the RS and football hooligans were sent to
Odessa as part of Turchynov’s clearly-enunciated policy to stop the spread of eastern separatism
to other cities.
Those people were not from Odessa, they were sent to Odessa to make mischief. And did they
ever do that.
Turchynov should hang.
Moscow Exile says:
May 3, 2014 at 2:25 am
“Are these my people?”
“Они счастливы, когда обгоревшие люди прыгают из окон
[They are happy as people on fire are jumping out of the windows].
Wonder what Kerry and Obama and Powers have to say about all of this?
Let me guess: it’s all of Russia’s making.
karl1haushofer says:
May 3, 2014 at 2:31 am
“Wonder what Kerry and Obama and Powers have to say about all of this?”
Good! Russians are dying! Let’s have some wine to celebrate.
marknesop says:
May 3, 2014 at 12:05 pm
A great Right Sector victory. Odessa must still bear some responsibility, though – where were
the fire department, and the police? The latter are said to have stood by and done nothing, but
if that is accurate they should all be jailed at a minimum, because people were strolling around
the outside of the bui
lding, casually pot-shotting with pistols at people clinging to the window-sills. There were
no apparent attempts to put out the fire, the building was just allowed to burn.
Nice one, Yarosh, you twisted fucker. I hope they slice you like bacon when they catch you.
And we must not forget that these people are operating under an official (as official as an unelected
government can make it) government mandate and were exempted from the order to disarm by government
intervention.
Moscow Exile says:
May 3, 2014 at 3:20 am
Одесса дом профсоюзов ПОЛНОЕ ВИДЕО
[Odessa Trade Union House FULL VIDEO]
Posted with above clip:
Ukraine clashes: dozens dead after Odessa building fire
The Trade Union building was set alight after a day of street battles in the Black Sea resort
city.
More than 30 people were killed in violent and chaotic clashes in the southern Ukrainian city
of Odessa on Friday as pro-Ukraine activists stormed a building defended by protesters opposed
to the current government in Kiev and in favour of closer ties with Russia.
The violence continued on Saturday as Ukraine said its forces had attacked pro-Russian separatists
in the industrial east of the country at dawn near the town of Kramatorsk.
Interior minister Arsen Avakov said Ukrainian forces had seized control of a television tower
in Kramatorsk, near the rebel stronghold of Slavyansk, where there was heavy fighting on Friday.
“We are not stopping”, Avakov wrote on his Facebook page, but gave no information on casualties.
Odessa’s large Soviet-era trade union building was set alight on Friday as the pro-Ukraine
activists mounted an assault as dusk fell. Police said at least 31 people choked to death on smoke
or were killed when jumping out of windows after the trade union building was set on fire.
Bodies lay in pools of blood outside the main entrance as explosions from improvised grenades
and Molotov cocktails filled the air. Black smoke from the building and a burning pro-Russia protest
camp wreathed the nearby square.
Pro-Russia fighters mounted a last-ditch defence of the burning building, throwing masonry
and petrol bombs from the roof on to the crowd below.
Medics at the scene said the pro-Russia fighters were also shooting from the roof. At least
five bodies with bullet wounds lay on the ground covered by Ukraine flags as fire engines and
ambulances arrived at the scene.
Some people fell from the burning building as they hung on to windowsills in an attempt to
avoid the fire that had taken hold inside. Pro-Ukraine protesters made desperate efforts to reach
people with ropes and improvised scaffolding.
“At first we broke through the side, and then we came through the main entrance”, said one
pro-Ukrainian fighter, 20, who said he was a member of the extreme nationalist group Right Sector.
“They had guns and they were shooting … Some people jumped from the roof, they died obviously”,
he said.
Riot police arrived on the scene as hand-to-hand fighting was already under way inside, but
did not enter the building and stood formed up in ranks outside.
Within two hours of the assault beginning, the resistance from pro-Russia activists inside
the building seemed to have been quelled. Several fire crews were spraying the smouldering building
with water and ambulances lined the streets outside.
Bloody and dazed pro-Russia protesters were eventually escorted from the building. Many were
handed over to police, and loaded on to police vans. Some were assaulted by the crowd.
I have corrected some grammatical errors in the text above, but I’m sure I’ve seen it before.
I think it’s basically a Western journalist’s report – I think Howard Amos of the Guardian.
And the comments come thick and fast. Amongst the very first is one mocking the deaths of the
anti-government people. Others blame Russia, the USA or both.
And there’s this one, very early on:
Каждый Гражданин Украины, имеет полное моральное право, уничтожить сепаратиста-террориста любым
удобным ему способом.
Слава Україні! Героям слава!
Every Ukrainian citizen has the full moral right to exterminate a separatist-terrorist by any
means at his disposal.
Glory to Ukraine! To the Heroes glory!
Interestingly, that quoted comment is written in Russian except for the exhortation to glorify
the Ukraine and its heroes, which is written in Ukrainian, albeit that there is only one difference
between the two languages in this respect, namely the word for Ukraine in the dative case.
Video footage exists showing injured people who’d jumped from the burning building being made
to crawl past a line of jeering neo-Nazis – the degeneracy on display – from the fascist f**kwits
right up to western so-called leaders is just sickening and hard, i suspect, even for MSM to spin.
Video footage filmed during the bloody events in Odessa that claimed dozens of lives on Friday
shows a more complicated picture, with provocateurs instigating the violence.
Ukrainian authorities blamed the pro-autonomy activists for starting the clashes that led to the
tragic fire at the House of Trade Unions. The interior ministry stated that anti-Kiev activists attacked
supporters of Kiev authorities before retreating to the building for shelter, and threw petrol bombs
at the crowd triggering the fire.
Russia’s Channel One television reconstructed the chronological order of events using publicly
available YouTube videos detailing what happened in Odessa on Friday.
It began with a football match between two teams – Chernomorets Odessa and Metalist Kharkov. Despite
the high political tensions in the region, authorities still allowed the match to take place, realizing
that a few thousand pro-Kiev football fans would be arriving to the city.
Following the match, around 1,500 supporters of the Kiev authorities and football ultras came
together for a march in support of Ukraine’s unity. The rally was sanctioned by local authorities.
Nationalists made their way towards the center of the city chanting “Glory to Ukraine” and “Death
to enemies,” as well as “Knife the Moskals (derogatory for Russians).” Some people in the group wore
ultra-nationalist movement insignia. They were armed with chains and bats, and carried shields.
The violence started when the pro-Kiev crowd was met by what looked like anti-government activists.
They were wearing St. George ribbons – identifying them as pro-autonomy – and red bands around their
sleeves. Some of the riot police officers present at the scene were wearing the same red bands around
their sleeves.
Image from ontimer.livejournal.com
Image from ontimer.livejournal.com
Then the visibly smaller group of alleged anti-Kiev activists started to attack the march, apparently
provoking the demonstrators. Footage then shows a smaller group men wearing red bands luring the
pro-Kiev crowd into a different direction.
At some point, the police line opened up to let the men wearing red bands through and closed back
up again. A video then shows a man standing behind the police lines shooting at the pro-Kiev crowd.
The provocations succeeded in triggering clashes, as both sides began to throw stones, and shots
were heard.
The alleged anti-Kiev activists then disappeared and angry pro-Kiev supporters headed to the opposition
camp based in front of the House of Trade Unions.
However, none of the original attackers with the red bands were there. Instead, a few dozen pro-autonomy
activists were surrounding the camp. When the activists saw the angry mob approaching, they took
shelter inside the House of Trade Unions.
Survivors of the fire say they had to barricade themselves inside the House of Trade Unions to
hide from the agitated mob, which torched their tent camp.
Radicals then began throwing Molotov cocktails at the Trade Unions building, setting it on fire.
Witnesses say those who managed to escape the blaze were severely beaten outside by the besiegers
of the burning building.
But the Ukrainian Interior Ministry offers a different version of events, saying the victims of
the violent unrest started the fire themselves when they began throwing Molotov cocktails from the
upper floor.
Multiple videos of the incident, however, show Molotov cocktails flying from outside the building.
Another video shows that some radical pro-Kiev elements were also inside the building, waving a Ukrainian
flag.
The evidence leads one to conclude that the football fans could have been manipulated while unknown
forces instigated the violence.
Ukrainian patriots, especially among highly educated intellectuals, so to speak, in the first
generation of aristocrats, terribly disappointed, furious and even frightened: Odessa cops released
without trial several dozen separatists.
Italics are typical and is not the most fragrant for our "national-conscious" media headline news
at one of the sites.
The reality is that Odessa common people, burning with right anger, manages to free from the Odessa
Police Department several people arrested for the fact that they were burned, injured and assassinated
but managed survive in May 2 killing. But then was arrested on charges of organizing mass riots and
participating in them.
Dear patriotic public outraged and puzzled even asks - how ? Now they will avenge us and maybe
even want to kill us -- They may want the revenge... But how wonderful everything has had started.
Damned Colorados kneaded and baked, done of them. Their corpses were grilled as kebabs, over howling
approval and victorious ecstasy of social networking sites. With joy expressed so profoundly that
it seemed to be heard from the monitors .
Opinion leaders from among the best patriotic journalists, bloggers most hyped, striking writers,
editors, two days deputies led by enthusiastic fit . Governor of Odessa region assured everyone that
the fight against terrorists conducted lawfully, and all actions necessary to recognize correct patriots
; best fighters with separatism have won awards, Timoshenko has blessed our glorious fighters for
Ukraine for future exploits .
It would seem that this is all we can wish for
The junta t even disdained clear instruction of Washington Obcom curators who suddenly decided
to declare that the monopoly of violence should be only from the state. Junta know that the curators
antics are no more than necessary hypocrisy, and that they properly understands hints, winks and
fingers crossed under the table those who desperately mowing, lies on the state's monopoly on violence.
Junta has made it clear that from now on anyone can kill and burn an enemy, he just need to know
how correctly nicknames him or her. Now the junta knows full well that no matter how cannibalistic
are its own actions or actions of those who consider themselves patriots, it will always receive
complimentary assessment from the international community - completely blind, deaf and dumb to any
autocracies if they are committed in the name of their interests, political, economic or any else.
.
New power Odessa run all the day a scrolling announcement on all monitors that everything was
done correctly against the terrorists, and the central government declared mourning over the loss
of anti-separatist fighters.
However, not perverse evolution of junta is the most frightening factor here -- they are only
a reflection of what people which installed it in power want. The most terrible thing is to realize
that this event reflects the immanent features of our newly mint civil society, so long and persistently
cultivated in vitro - as a kind of experimental mega-homunculus with predetermined properties . Among
them - the cruelty and contempt for the neighbor if he or she does not share our views, the extreme
intolerance of any opinions deviating from approved party line, and completely totalitarian way of
thinking, including coldness and indifference to the sufferings of others. .
When the gentle young ladies with bloodthirsty delight write in their Facebook accounts, that
this is a real delight to see the death Colorados - whether shot at checkpoints, or burned alive
at Odessa Khatyn or killed at point-blank by sniper. And this mood did not emerged just now.
When with ill-disguised glee taking head of leading television channels, with banners above their
stupid heads that read "United Country", report about the victory over the terrorists, referring
to his own countrymen who disagree just in the issues of language used and the level autonomy for
their regions it's just the apogee of the long history of dehumanization of the nation.
Throughout the years of Ukraine's independence, rather than creating a single political nation,
representatives of which have lived comfortably in the overall country, regardless of ethnicity and
language, rather than a guarantee of preservation to each his own identity, one part of the country
worked relentlessly about presenting other us undermench.
No, certainly not the people themselves . At the level of ordinary human contact and dorm situation
for quite some time was quite acceptable. Children in the South-East learned Ukrainian language,
wove wreaths, learned to paint Easter eggs, happy to sing Ukrainian folk songs, and on school holidays
took trips to exotic for them former Austrian and then Polish city of Lvov which suddenly became
the most Ukrainian city in Ukraine. The admiring the Ukrainian culture, European buildings, architecture
and other signs of "Authentic Ukraine", who for the cosmopolitan people of South- East were somehow
both mysterious and attractive.
Schoolchildren Crimea and Donbas consistently won at the Ukrainian Language Olympiads, taught
fake history and customs of his newly created country, and, in general, life was OK, if you close
yeses to the consistent and persistent attacks of Western Ukrainians on their own cultural identity
.
Generous people of Donbass for a long time ignored or failed to notice that behind all all of
this grandeur of "authentic Ukrainian culture" from Western Ukraine there is a distinct smell of
Western Ukrainian fascism. And starting from 90th there were articles that wrote about them with
ill-concealed contempt, arrogance, slightly hinting that they are second rate Ukrainians, not quite
capable of subtle feelings, uncool, silly, rednecks. No, if the word
Untermensch was not yet a
fashionable work in modern Ukrainian newspeak, but this is what they really meant.
The farther away, the less shy became Galicia educational missionaries. Frost they started to
call all residents of Donbass "sovok" then gopnik, the cattle, "budlo". Then it became fashionable
to practice periodically shrewd thinking that " maybe we should let mossy scoops sausage roll to
Russian without interfering with us to build magnificent palaces of Europe's democracies ." These
articles written by the best representatives of Galichia cultural missionaries were usually written
in Berlin and Prague cafés on stipinds from Konrad Adenaure or similar finds, openly published, and
no one, mind you, not even one tries to ro shame them.
After 2010 this trend went into overdrive. The most bold hired pens of Galichia finanlly stopped
to limit themselves to the stylistic and lexical beautifications and opnly started to write about
Donbass all the unpleasant things all want, is not limiting themselves even by minimal decency.
Despite the fact that at the helm was Donetsk guy, the happy owner of a golden bowl, the one that
gave rise to the volume of works and tons of dollars of Western Grants for rubbing the subject with
their bought tongues, people of Donbass were denigrated by the army of hardworking fighters for the
converting South-Eastern Ukraine in Galicia II.
They were denied to have any common human merits, but only unparalleled stupidity, slavery, servile
habits - as opposed to the great merit of Galicia population. Technology was very efficient, pragmatic
and admittedly participants were well paid. In order to make the project with code name "Anti-0Russia"
you need a rigid discourse of moral, cultural and intellectual impotence of those who speak Russian
language as their native tongue and consider themselves belonging to Russian culture. And nothing
less then that.
Украинские патриоты, особенно из числа высокообразованных интеллигентов, так сказать, аристократов
в первом поколении, страшно разочарованы, взбешены и даже где-то напуганы – одесские менты выпустили
без суда и следствия несколько десятков сепаратистов. Курсивом выделен типичный и еще не самый
пахучий как для наших неупередженных СМИ заголовок новости на одном из сайтов.
Так вот, из одесского горуправления милиции оскорбленные, горюющие, пылающие гневом горожане смогли
вызволить тех, кого убивали и жгли 2-го мая, и кто остался в живых, но потом был арестован по обвинению
в организации массовых беспорядков и участии в них.
Уважаемая патриотическая публика возмущена и даже в недоумении
спрашивает – как?! Теперь же они будут нам мстить и, возможно, даже захотят расправиться! Возможно,
захотят... А ведь как чудесно все складывалось. Проклятых колорадосов замесили и испекли, наделали
из них гриль и шашлычки, вой одобрения и победного экстаза покрывал просторы социальных сетей так
плотно, что, казалось, был слышен с мониторов.
Лидеры общественного мнения из числа лучших патриотических журналистов, самых раскрученных блогеров,
ярких публицистов, главных редакторов, народных депутатов двое суток возглавляли восторженную истерику.
Губернатор Одесской области уверял всех, что борьба с террористами велась законно, и все действия
патриотов надо признать правильными; лучшие борцы получили премии, Тимошенко благословила борцов
за нашу Украину на будущие подвиги.
Казалось бы – чего желать?
Новая власть даже презрела ясные указания кураторов, которые внезапно решили заявить, что монополия
на насилие должна быть только у государства. Новая власть убедилась, что кривляния кураторов не более
чем необходимое лицемерие, и что она правильно понимает намеки, подмигивания и скрещенные под столом
пальцы тех, кто, отчаянно кося, врет о монополии государства на насилие. Новая власть четко дала
понять, что отныне каждый может убивать и жечь, если знает, как правильно назвать убиваемого и сжигаемого
врага. Новая власть теперь твердо знает, что сколь бы людоедскими ни были ее собственные телодвижения
или акции тех, кто считает себя патриотом, она всегда получит одобрительные оценки пресловутой мировой
общественности – настолько слепой, глухой и немой, насколько этого требуют интересы их подопечных.
Новая власть Одессы целый день целый день гоняла по экрану бегущую строку о том, что против террористов
все было сделано правильно, а центральная власть объявила траур в связи с гибелью бойцов АТО...
Однако не эволюции власти пугают больше всего, они лишь отражение
того, чего хочет признающий ее народ. Страшнее всего осознавать, каково качество нашего гражданского
общества, так долго и настойчиво выращиваемого в пробирке – как некий экспериментальный мегагомункулус
с заранее заданными свойствами. И среди них – жестокость, презрение к ближнему, крайняя нетерпимость
к чужому мнению, сугубо тоталитарное мышление и катастрофическая холодность к страданиям других.
Когда нежные барышни с кровожадным восторгом пишут в своих аккаунтах, что на улице праздник в
связи со смертью колорадосов – расстрелянных ли на блокпостах, сожженных ли в одесской Хатыни, убитых
ли в упор карателями – это ведь не сегодня началось. Когда с плохо скрываемой радостью ведущие телеканалов,
над головами которых висит огромная плашка «Единая страна», рапортуют о победе над террористами,
имея в виду собственных сограждан, просто имеющих другой взгляд на будущее родины – это тоже не вдруг,
это просто апогей многолетней истории расчеловечивания другого.
На протяжении всех лет независимости Украины, вместо создания единой политической нации, представителям
которой комфортно бы жилось в общей стране независимо от этнической и языковой принадлежности, вместо
гарантии сохранения каждому его собственной идентичности, одна часть страны упорно расчеловечивала
другую.
Нет, конечно, не сам народ. На уровне обычного общежития и
человеческих контактов ситуация довольно долго была вполне приемлемой. Дети Юго-Востока учили украинский
язык, плели веночки, учились расписывать пасхальные яйца, с удовольствием пели народные песни, а
на школьных каникулах ездили посмотреть экзотический для них Львов, восхищаясь аутентичной украинской
культурой, вышиванками, архитектурой и прочими признаками украинства, которые для космополитичного
городского Юго-Востока были чем-то таинственным и привлекательным. Школьники Крыма и Донбасса последовательно
побеждали на всеукраинских олимпиадах по мове, учили историю и обычаи своей страны, и, в общем, жить
было можно, если закрывать глаза на последовательное и упорное наступление на собственную идентичность.
Великодушные донбассцы долгое время не замечали, как среди всего этого благолепия, уже в 90-х,
то и дело появлялись статьи, в которых о них писали с плохо скрытым презрением, высокомерием, слегка
намекая на то, что они как бы недоукраинцы, не вполне способные к тонким чувствам, неотесанные, глуповатые,
прямолинейные ватники. Нет, тогда этого слова еще не было, это модный современный новояз, но имелось
в виду что-то подобное.
Чем дальше, тем меньше стеснялись образованцы. Начали с совков, потом донецких открыто начали
называть то гопниками, то скотами, то быдлом, потом модно стало периодически упражняться в томных
размышлениях «а может, пусть замшелые совки катятся колбаской, не мешая нам строить великолепные
европейские демократические чертоги». Эти статьи лучших представителей укрсучлита, как правило,
написанные в берлинских и пражских кафе, публиковались открыто, и никого, заметьте, никого даже не
журили, не то чтобы называть сепаратистами.
После 2010-го и вовсе все пошло вразнос. Самые бойкие перья
страны, окончательно не ограничивая себя в стилистических и лексических красивостях, писали о донбасских
от вольного все, что желали, не заморачиваясь уже и минимальными приличиями вроде эвфемизмов и иносказаний.
Несмотря на то, что в Межигорье сидел главный донецкий, счастливый обладатель золотого унитаза, того
самого, что вызвал к жизни тома завистливых сочинений и килограммы грантовских денег на натирание
предмета красноречивыми языками, донбассян трудолюбиво и совершенно бесстрашно умножали на ноль лучшие
витии страны.
За нами не числилось никаких достоинств, а только беспримерная тупость, рабство, холопские замашки
– в противовес великой галичанской ясновельможности. Технология действенная, прагматичная и, надо
признать, эффективная. Сделать проект Нероссия можно было, только формируя жесткий императивный дискурс
морального, культурного и интеллектуального ничтожества носителей русской идентичости. И никак иначе.
Изобразительное искусство тоже в долгу не оставалось, достаточно посмотреть на изображения «кацапской
быдлоты с востока» - плюющих семки, бухающих из горла туповатых гоблинов. Раз в год львовяне устраивали
у себя потемкинские деревни под общим названием «схидизахидразом», везли к себе темных луганских
детишек и показывали им, как цивилизованное панство празднует пасху, например. Или на фоне тотального
презрения вдруг объявляли лицемерно-циничный день русского языка…
Дегуманизация «донецких» (харьковских, луганских – юго-восточных, в общем) шла
по экспоненте, и промежуточный апогей ее наступил в 2013-м, когда парень из Белой Церкви Вадим Титушко
был назван символом донецкого гопничества, и его фамилия, ставшая нарицательной, лепилась к любому,
кто вызывал гнев у украиноязычных патриотов. Титушки - все как на подбор - оказывались русскоязычными
носителями свинцовых мерзостей жизни. Эту кликуху смело употребляли общественники и мытци, журналисты
и народные депутаты, ею клеймили с высоких трибун и телевизионных экранов, применяли уже как официальный
термин, и любой невежественный, но профессионально-патриотичный пан мог смело обзывать титушкой кого
угодно совершенно невозбранно.
Потом титушки были заменены провокаторами, орками, животными, потом сепаратистами, наконец – террористами.
Можно ли жалеть террориста или орка? Можно ли считать его равным себе? Можно ли вообще принимать
всерьез быдло? Скота? Раба? Можно ли предполагать, что ему бывает больно?
Можно ли стесняться при нем? Учитывать его ничтожное мнение? Остановиться перед тем, чтобы плюнуть
ему в лицо, дать по морде, поставить на колени? Сжечь, наконец, и устроить веселый праздник по тому
поводу?
Если вы правильно назовете врага, да хоть бы он был вашим земляком или соотечественником, все
вышеперечисленное сделать намного легче.
В апреле вот в Киеве устроили перформанс. С некоторых
пор любой кусочек дерьма можно назвать артобъектом и ходить вокруг, восхищаясь глубиной авторского
замысла и полетностью фантазии мытця, этот кусочек положившего. Собственно, в Европе мода на разнообразные
бессмысленные инсталляции давно вчерашний день и даже пошлость, но до наших свиридов петровичей все
доходит с большим опозданием, несмотря на их пламенные европейские амбиции. Поэтому куда конь с копытом,
туда и Антин Мухарский с клешней.
В Центре современного искусства (sic!) он поставил клетку, посадил туда двоих москалей, плюющих
семки и бухающих в режиме реального времени, грязных, отвратительных гоблинов, символизирующих, по
замыслу мытця, весь русский мир. Клетка была обернута российским флагами, а вокруг стояли передовые
киевские журналисты, довольные по самую маковку увиденным и чувством большой человеческой общности
друг с другом и Антином. «Тварин не годувати», - просила табличка.
Намек был понят даже самыми тупыми – это не просто кацапы из Кацапии, это те самые пророссийские
сепаратисты, которых так ненавидит патриотическая тусовка и которым она готова разнести головы и
города, лишь бы не дать им уйти.
История, конечно, не нова. Холокост стал возможен не в последнюю
очередь благодаря тому, что простым немецким обывателям, незлобивым, в общем, бюргерам, была массово
имплантирована идея, что евреи не люди, и с ними поэтому можно делать что угодно – да хоть сумочки
из их кожи носить, предварительно утилизировав ненужные останки. Жиды мыли мостовые зубными щетками,
и маленькие немчики могли подойти и плюнуть в них – не люди же, чего их жалеть? Карикатуры тех лет
изображали еврея примерно так же, как сегодняшние антины показывают москаля – расчеловеченным существом,
животным, оно. Так, говорите, фашистов в стране нет?
Но даже при всей этой длительной истории унижения себе подобных реакция нашей образованщины, наших
либералов и патриотов, долго исполнявших умеренный просвещенный национализм и воротивших носы от
зловония фарионовской продукции, не может не изумлять. Ведь в Одессе произошло что-то запредельно
ужасное, это не карикатурки чертить, не виршики поганые лепить. Страшно, мученически погибли люди.
Никакого сочувствия, никакой задумчивости даже. Два дня азартно обсуждаются версии, почему это
прекрасно. Сначала – потому что это были российские диверсанты. Казалось бы, бинго! но не нет, оказалось,
что все одесситы. Тогда в ход пошла версия о том, что они сами себя подожгли. Подробный разбор видеодокументов,
опровергающих эту чушь, не впрок. Сами-сами. Черт с ним, что уже и подвига борцов нет, раз сами,
ну ладно. Главное – результат. Так ведь это были люди, и они сгорели, вы понимаете, подонки? Разве
донецкое быдло ликовало, когда вы хоронили погибших на Майдане? Разве кто-то злорадствовал?
Впереди пелетона, по обыкновению, дамы. Ангелоподобная румяная мамаша Оробец с ясными
глазами и вокабуляром нацистской погромщицы; жалкая уже в своей многовекторной злобе Тимошенко, чествующая
убийц как героев; редактриса одного из самых одиозных неуперовских сайтов и другая, жеманно и томно
изображавшая из себя реющую на высоте птичьего полета над майданом бесстрастную бытописательницу…
Читать их тексты по поводу победы над «колорадосами, которые сами виноваты», немыслимо, невозможно,
за гранью.
Публика попроще и вовсе не стесняется. Конечно, какое может быть сочувствие к шашлыкам и грилю?
Что-то страшное и невозвратное произошло с общественными умонастроениями в едыной крайине, какая-то
тотальная гуманитарная катастрофа национального масштаба, что-то важное человеческое потеряно. Навсегда?
Почитайте, что пишет доктор из Одессы.
"Меня зовут Игорь Розовский, мне 39 лет, я живу в городе Одессе. В течение 15 лет я работаю
врачом в службе скорой помощи.
Как вы знаете, в нашем города случилась страшная трагедия, одни люди убили других. Убили жестоко
- сожгли живыми... потому что они не разделяют политических взглядов националистов. Сначала жестоко
избивали, потом жгли.
Как врач я поспешил оказать помощь тем, кого можно было спасти, но меня остановили боевики,
не дав подойти к раненому. Один из них грубо оттолкнул меня, пообещав, что скоро меня и других евреев
Одессы ждет такая же участь.
Я видел парня, которого можно было спасти, если бы я смог забрать его в больницу, но все уговоры
закончились ударом по моему лицу и потерей очков.
За 15 лет я видел очень многое, но вчера я хотел плакать нет, не от боли или унижения, а от
бессилия, что то сделать. В моем городе произошло то, чего не было даже при фашистской оккупации.
Я задаюсь вопросом, почему молчит весь мир?"
Правда больше никого не
интересует, есть только свои и чужие, просветленные и рабы, патриоты и колорадосы, проукраинские
и гриль. Что, скажите, что мешало вам услышать других? Нет ответа. Есть стрельба, пожары, вертолеты
и танки, акции устрашения, ультиматумы и ненависть. Всепоглощающая, громкая, тотальная. Взаимная.
Сегодня протестующие на Юго-Востоке повторяют ходы, предложенные высокообразованными киевскими интеллектуалами,
годами науськивавшими украинцев друг против друга в бесконечных марафонах ненависти на телеканалах.
Вы, либеральная образованщина, понимаете, что наделали?
Как помириться? На чем? Как жить после того, как близких тебе людей, которые всего-то хотели быть
услышанными своими согражданами, называют грилем погромщики, пинающие сожженных ногами?
Пепел Одессы стучит в наши сердца. Как с этим жить?
Гореть вам в аду, подонки!!!!!! Вы за все ответите. Стыдно жить с такими в одной стране. Распоясовшиеся
малолетки-быдло. Как шакалы по ночам выходите. Что, слабо было вчера, когда нормальные одесситы
освобождали своих героев выйти и выразить свое мнение было? Нет, вы ночью, шакалью ходили и орали.
У вас ни совести. ни уважения к памяти погибшим. Будте вы прокляты во веки вечные!!!!
sever
КАК С ЭТИМ ЖИТЬ???!!! А мы и НЕ живем больше! После Одессу наши души и сердца мертвы! Нет больше
слова "милосердие" и "сострадание"! Их выжгли из нашего сознания! теперь только адекватный ответ
фашистам! НЮРА, спасибо! Утром не открылась "Полемика", как не гуглил, не мог найти ВАС! Думал.
хана! Последней отдушины нас лишили!
Alex Kent
Гуглите "Как убивали одесситов в Доме Профсоюзов – детали сценария +18". откроется много адресов.
Смотреть, начиная с первого, в разных адресах и коментах много дополнительных фото и видео. Это
ужас!!! У гитлеровцев просто была налажена рутинная работа по уничтожению людей, переработки их
в сырьё. Украинские националисты превзошли всех прочих фашистов зверствами и уродливой психикой.
HCL
У "свидомых" шакалов есть одна общая ублюдочная черта - они считают геройством нападать на
беззащитных людей многократно превосходящим их стадом. Так было в Киеве, когда они избили битами
несколько десятков НАСТОЯЩИХ киевлян которые "посмели" высказать несогласие с многочисленным гуцульским
табором на Крещатике. Так было недавно в Запорожье, когда они намного превосходящей численностью
толпой забрасывали горстку "колорадов" камнями. Так было в Одессе... У меня перед глазами картинка
кинохроники: зал суда, убийца (совсем недавно смотревший на своих сограждан свеху вниз в своей
безнаказанности) со слезами на глазах просит сохранить ему его поганую жизнь. Помните, гниды,
пощады не будет. Ответите за все.
Неуловимый-Коцапчег
Неееет... эти ублюдки даже полезны. Они показывают истинное лицо нынешней власти. Было бы гораздо
хуже, если бы молчали (а "вешать" бы стали "потом"). Немцы никогда не говорили евреям, что везут
их убивать. "На работы", "на переселение", еще куда-то. Чтобы не взбунтовались раньше времени.
Потому их столько и убили. А у этих малолетних дебилов мозгов-то нету, вот они все планы хунты,
"единой краины", раньше времени и разбалтывают...
oxana
Когнечно видали,и теперь уже неважно видит-ли это на Западе,я,пускай это не покажется циничным,рада,что
он умер в 95.Он хотя-бы,умирая знал,что прожил не зря,вчера я говорила своему сыну о том,что если-бы
его дед не воевал,то не родилась-бы я и следовательно и он.Эти,не знаю,как их назвать не только
убийцы,они убивают и в нас все человечекое,если до Одессы я хотела только забора,то теперь мне
этого мало,а что касается укрпсевдоинтелектуалов-пуля найдет "героя"! А вот коментарий на мое
пост-оцените " Правда завжди перемагає і, як бачимо правда виявилася не на боці шльондр та підарів
;-) І за вами прийдуть, виблядки, що розпалюєте війну - цей шашлик тільки початок "
Нестор-Сармат
Мы тоже всяких уродов видали на майдане, но жгли только БЕРКУТ. А вы ПОДОНКИ затеявшие эту
войну со своими же до сих пор понять не можете, что народ украины уничтожают своиже и АМЕРИКЕ
не обязательно вводить сюда войска и зачищать территорию - здесь и своих тварей найдется в избытке
(ублюдков бандеры). До вас до сих пор не доходит, что майдан 2013 - 2014 года положил начало развалу
Украине. И никакие ваши флажки на канальчиках, никакие угрозы и унижения уже ничего не исправять.
А наоборот вы такое впечатдение, что намеренно играете на руку тем, кто хочет уничтожить страну.
И обвинять в этом вам надо прежде всего СЕБЯ.
Valery Scherbak
Будь ты во веки веков проклят,Владислав Симиренко!!!Пусть кровь невинно сожженных людей падет
на головы подонков, допустивших этот кошмар. В первую очередь на кукловодов, этих Обам с Меркелями,
которые дергают за веревочки наших доморощенных упырей. Какое кощюнствующее лицемерие --говорить
и писать бред о единой стране, когда немецкие эсэсовцы в гробах переворачиваются от восторга,
глядя на те жуткие зверства, что допускают их последыши в Украине.Нюра, искренне уважая Ваш талант,
мне непонятно, о каких интеллигентах Вы упоминаете в статье??? Это Оробец, фарион, Турчинов с
Яценюком интеллигенты???Ведь это все нелюдь, типичные "марлоки", вечная им АНАФЕМА.
Nataly Mileshko
Первый же комментарий подтверждает сказанное в статье! Быдло с Западной Украины,возомнившее
себя паном глумится над погибшими женщинами и молодыми людьми Ведь даже Ярема сказал. что в доме
профсоюзов сгорели одесситы и что оружия там обнаружено не было. Я стыжусь жить в одной стране
с таким одноклеточными мудаками. Надо от них отъединяться. Пусть майданят без нас на просторах
полонины
Nataly Mileshko
Мразь бандеровская! У вашего гитлерюгенда что не было автоматов. У большинства сожженных огнестрельные
ранения. Вы их добивали,твари.
Oleg-Crow
Пепел стучать не может, но пепел сожженных в Одессе стучит меня в грудь. И поднимает волну
ненависти, нет не к этим малолетним идиоткам, разливавшим бензин по бутылкам, и даже не к этим
моральным уродам, радующимся чужому горю.
Я ненавижу этих президентов,продавших свою страну за горсть сребреников(пусть даже большую
горсть) от горбачева до януковича, особенно последнего, видите ли он не хотел проливать кровь,
и по-этому убежал, в результате всю страну залили кровью. Я ненавижу и презираю трех тушек майдана,
которые ради того, что бы дорваться до кормушки, посылают в братоубийственную бойню, тысячи людей.
И эта ненависть сжигает мою душу. мы никогда не узнаем правду об одесских событиях,да и кому уже
нужна эта правда? Акценты расставлены и конвейер убийств за "правое дело" запущен.
Но я искренне надеюсь, что настоящие организаторы и исполнители одесских событий, в полной
мере испытают то, на что они обрекли других.
Valery Scherbak
Олег! Кукловоды сидят за океаном и в кабинетах Рейсхтага. Местные недоумки лишь выполняю их
команды, окончательно потеряв человеческий облик.
Аферист и махровый ворюга Аваков радуется количеству убитых в Славянске патриотов и мирных
жителей, другие подонки выступают с лживыми версиями событий в Одессе.
Но, мы ведь знаем истинную цену этим упырям, ничего и никогда не будет забыто!!!
3Крым-16-е
Киевляне! Взываю к вашей совести и чести! В ваших руках то, что осталось от Украины! И у вас
есть последний шанс реабилитироваться перед своими славными предками! Если прямо сейчас вы не
соберётесь и не выйдете на улицы и не сметёте всю эту киевскую нечисть, которую породил майдан,
всю оставшуюся жизнь вас будет пожирать червь ненависти к самим себе. Подумайте, ещё не поздно!
Ivan Susaninр
А не надо им никаких шансов. Скоро придет клятый москаль и будет их резать. Насрать уже если
честно, смогут они быть людьми или не смогут - сил уже нет смотреть на этот зоопарк, поймите.
Будьте с теми, кому верите, но помните - фашисты будут умирать.
jevel
Зря Вы так Иван...Многие киевляне-просто бояться теперь выходить на улицу..тем более на майдан..-там
теперь ЖИВУТ западенцы..-как у себя дома.
А мы-теперь в Киеве-не дома!.. И многие сидят на кухне..оплакивают страну..и погибших..а сделать
ничего не могут!...попробуйте выйти на майдан-с ДРУГИМ мнением!...-сепаратист!-сразу в каталажку..и
на 15 лет!
А что я могу?-пожилая одинокая женщина?! А вот почему молодые сидят тихо на попе..-не знаю!
Может запуганы...может зазомбированы уже до предела...Страшно..больно..обидно! Вечная память погибшим
одесситам!
Ваня
jevel очень Вас понимаю потому как живу в Днепре, где сейчас главная ставка сиониста бени коломойского
и сатаниста яроша,
НО, кто дал неожидаемый ни кем результат на выборах в столице фашистам? приезжие бандэровцы?
Нет, куйевляне купи-продаи и офисная плесень - местные.
Luna
Нюра, спасибо за отжиг. Все в точку, недаром троллье свидорасное вперде бежит. Что делать?
1. Выиграть в гражданской войне, по максимуму уничтожив фашистов, казнив хунту, спонсоров-олигархов
и журнашлюх поганых после трибунала.
2. Всех майданутых троллей, либеральную образованщину, пидоров Мухарских вычислить и на зону,
для петушения, давать от 15 лет за разжигание экстремизма.
3. Даже отделившись, ЮВ может повоевать с этой быдлоокраиной, предварительно подождав пока
эти мрази по максимуму пожрут друг друга.
4. Шумаков был прав, эти твари вылезли на свет божий, чтобы и погибнуть от света, пришло время
очищения. И это глобальный масштаб. Мелкой окраины с 20 февраля больше нет. Поэтому говорить о
"единой стране" давно нет смысла. Русские-малороссы долго запрягали, но едут быстро, уже едут.
Как говорил Пушкин, еду-еду не свищу, а наеду - не спущу. Конец старого мира, начало нового, фашисты,
как и 1941, подписались на смерть. А наше дело, как всегда, правое.
Ubranch
Необходимо добавить: все годы т.н. "йих нэзалэжности" смотрел и думал, а что же оно такое,
это самое "чистое украинство". Наконец, понял: недолюди и нелюди... быдлее не найти в мире! И
ещё, касаемо к одесской жути: аваковым (а самому - вовсе не славянину - гадине Авакову) просто
необходимо физически уничтожить оставшихся свидетелей, дабы скрыть то, что только-только просочилось
и чему никакая махровая ложь (типа "самоподжога") не станет оправданием ввиду абсолютно явного,
не требующего доказательств (стОит лишь глянуть на горы истерзанных в подвале!!!) геноцида одесского
мирного населения. Вот для этого и прислан очередной палач Иван Катеринчук + новая толпа ПСов,
чтобы прикрыть "зачисткой следов" участие Авакова и иже с оной нелюдью в прямом преступлении против
человечества (подчеркну: не "человечности", но человечества, ибо их хозяева - США, воюющие именно
против человечества - прямые виновники и затейники подобного), будь они все прокляты!
То, что случилось в Одессе, касается ВСЕХ --
То, что случилось в Одессе, Чудовищный ГРЕХ!
То, что случилось в Одессе, фашизма разврат,
Морда фашизма, фашизма пылающий ад.
То, что случилось в Одессе, не битва идей,
Это – Освенцим, где звери сжигают людей,
Это – фашистам Права Человека даны,
Это Права Человека – войскам сатаны!
То, что случилось в Одессе, касается ВСЕХ!
То, что случилось в Одессе, фашизма успех,
Это – фашизма концерт и фашизма гастроль,
Хохот фашизма, который – свободы король!
Это – свобода, в которую запад влюблён,
Запад, состряпавший этой свободы бульон.
То, что случилось в Одессе, фашистская месть,
Месть людоедов!.. Россию фашистам не съесть!
То, что случилось в Одессе, касается ВСЕХ!
В западной прессе – вранья русофобского цех:
Это – фашистам Права Человека даны,
Это Права Человека – войскам сатаны.
То, что случилось в Одессе, не битва идей,
Это – Освенцим, где звери сжигают людей.
Морда фашизма, фашизма пылающий ад –
Это касается ВСЕХ, и ни шагу назад!
Только сейчас начинают просачиваться сведения о произошедшем. В XXI веке сложно долго скрывать
то, что видели сотни человек. В сети становится все больше кадров, появляются описания очевидцев.
Сейчас мы знаем, что представители Евромайдана проникли в Дом профсоюзов еще до начала пожара. Один
из запасных выходов был плохо закрыт и каратели ворвались в здание заполненное испуганными, растерянными
людьми. Внутри началось избиение, а снаружи летели бутылки с зажигательной смесью, камни и пули.
Те куликовцы, кто смог вырваться из здания, попадали в руки разъярённой толпы.
На кадрах из здания мы
видим заляпанный кровью пол и стены, тела, которые перетаскивали уже после смерти. Видно, что трупы
обливали сверху горючей жидкостью и поджигали. Всех без разбора, женщин, мужчин, подростков. Около
50 человек смогли укрыться на крыше, где им пришлось провести всю ночь. Милиция наблюдала за происходящим
побоищем со стороны. Всех выживших арестовали и увезли на допрос. Благодаря активным действиям одесситов,
часть из них удалось спасти. Именно поэтому мы можем узнать свидетельства очевидцев. Они говорят,
что убитых было намного больше чем 40 человек, что фактически им пришлось выходить по телам мёртвых
товарищей. Они не противоречат друг другу, не скрывают своих лиц. Хунта хотела утаить от людей произошедшее,
но не вышло.
Очень показательна реакция той нелюди, которая представляет нынче Евромайдан. От простых его сторонников,
до самых высоких чиновников и депутатов. Сначала они ликовали и глумились над убитыми. Затем говорили,
что это были не одесситы. Когда это вранье было опровергнуто, появилась еще более вопиющая ложь о
самоподжоге. На видео с места и правда видно, что происходят возгарания на верхних этажах, в кабинетах
с целыми стёклами. Правда там же появляются и флаги Украины. Каратели не упускали возможности покрасоваться,
на радость собравшейся внизу толпе. Беременная женщина недолго, но отчаянно звала на помощь. Однако,
улица призывала убивать, и боевик задушил её шнуром.
Картина произошедшего затмевает самые жестокие преступления современности. Это просто беспрецедентная
жестокость и крайняя степень озверения. И ни один из карателей не был арестован. Наоборот! Исполнителей
похвалили и выплатили денежные премии за "подвиг". Ведь, согласитесь, не каждый человек способен
забивать палками безоружных людей. Пострадать за это преступление должны выжившие. Именно для этого
назначен новый руководитель Одесской милиции, Иван Катеринчук. Трижды прокричав "Слава Украине!",
этот уроженец Ивано-Франковска, прирождённый нацист, поприветствовал толпу карателей, получивших
в управление целый город. Теперь у них есть полное право на расправу, и это право будет реализовано
уже в самое ближайшее время. За убитых в Доме профсоюзов кто-то должен понести ответственность, а
победителей не судят. Значит виновными будут назначены выжившие, а также те, кто так или иначе был
связан с протестующими сторонниками федерализации. Новая оккупация Одессы, по всей видимости, будет
не менее кровавой, нежели предыдущая.
The command "Set fire and go" was given to mercenaries who stood behind the tragic events in the House of Trade
Unions in Odessa. Israeli journalist Anna Stefan presented these shocking details in her investigation.
Subscribe to Vesti News https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCa8MaD6gQscto_Nq1i49iew?sub_confirmation=1 The command
"Set fire and go" was given to mercenaries who stood behind the tragic events
Сегодня конец сентября... Порядка 30 тысяч жертв на Донбассе... И??? У кого-то ещё есть сомнения
в намерениях секты сатанистов в Киеве?
Евгений Даренский
В Одессе профессионалы работали. Мне ночью не спалось, я смотрел видео из Одессы, и внезапно
понял, что там произошло на самом деле. Провокаторы со специально прикреплёнными на груди георгиевскими
ленточками обстреливали с крыш майдаунов из травматики и/или пневматики, а когда последние превратились
в
iWhiteBeat
людей убили,лица тех кто делал коктейли молотова на видео видно четко...пухличек с пистолетом
который перед кем то отчитывался тоже засветился...так вопрос почему этих людей не привлекли за
убийство\пособничество в убийстве людей?или же это военные которые защищали целостность украины
и по этому они смело могли убивать людей?даже в обычной драке если человека убивают того кто его
убил,даже не специально,будут судить или же в европейской украине это не так?куча доказательств
куча свидетелей но прошел почти год а толку ноль..ебаные хохлы мрази конченые вы своими тупыми
головами когда уже начнете думать то?неужели у вас не вознимают такие вопросы?
вопросы про снайперво на майдане?вопросы про боинг про который уже все забыли наверно да?государство
обезьян которые немогут думать а только как быки кидаются на все перед чем вывесят красную тряпку
ваши президенто и алигархо тв
Read more · Translate
Александр Невский
Украинцы-нацисты! У вас один выход продолжать в том же духе психоза, до тех пор пока все не
умрете! В этом случае менее мучительно для вас, ведь ничего не осознаешь Но страшно для нормальных
украинцев.... А если одумаетесь, взглянете на себя со стороны, оцените свои деяния - умрете от
стыда и скорби, страха от того что содеяли, медленно и мучительно! НО РАСКАЯВШИСЬ! К сожалению,
большинство из вас как слабые духом и умом выберут первое - смерть в "наркотическом сне". Будьте
вы прокляты, нацистское отребье, предатели и убийцы своего народа!
Рефлексия
Поэтому, сгорела противная сторона, огнестрельное оружие им не помогло, и не один из правого
сектора (сатанисты) не пострадал (УВЫ)!!! Сгорели, были изрубленны, застреленны, растерзаны в
клочья только те, кто был против участников переворота в киеве
Mona Kisa
О как! Всё на Тимошонку валят!
Да эта бесноватая не в той власти сейчас, чтоб организовать акцию ТАКОГО масштаба. Однако ж
как удобно Турчиновым-Парубиям-Каломойским & K° всё свалить на Тимошонку - и с себя груз ответственности
снимут, и ещё спектакль скорби по погибшим покажут.
Yet, what happened on the evening of May 2nd, with reports of 42 to even over 100 of the
'pro-Russia' side burned alive by pro-Ukrainians, in the Trade Union building on Odessa's Central
'Kulikovo Pole' marked a seismic shift in the situation. One from which there was no return, nor
could be. It was a day which changed the mood, the stakes, the whole landscape of a situation which
quickly spilled into all-out civil war.
Yet, what happened on the evening of May 2nd, with reports of 42 to even over 100 of the
'pro-Russia' side burned alive by pro-Ukrainians, in the Trade Union building on Odessa's Central
'Kulikovo Pole' marked a seismic shift in the situation. One from which there was no return, nor
could be. It was a day which changed the mood, the stakes, the whole landscape of a situation
which quickly spilled into all-out civil war. Just a week later, another large city by the sea, Mariupol,
witnessed its own tragedy, when Ukrainian forces entered the city, opening fire on civilians.
In Odessa on May 2nd, true, some peaceful pro-Ukrainians tried to assist their countrymen as
they perished in a building which had been their base, their gathering
place, for months. But more looked on, chanting pro-Ukrainian songs, posing for photos even. Some
of those, formerly
peaceful pro-Ukrainian activists, even made, threw Molotov cocktails, with then
several who managed to escape incineration by leaping from windows reported as beaten to death on
the ground below. Others, shot from the ground, at least escaped the agony of death
by incineration.
... ... ...
It's unforgivable. On a human level, never mind as a journalist, it's a pain
which pierces my soul to think of those people, those I'd seen at
demonstrations, including young girls, young men, middle-aged and older men,
and women, perishing in such a barbaric way. Yet perhaps just as shocking,
the true
callousness of the Ukrainian government and media –
On May 2nd 2014,
the Ukrainian side lost some of the key things you need to be a country.
Something you need to be a person. Compassion. Humanity. Heart. The year
since have seen Ukrainian powers do everything
to prevent a proper investigation, and then blame it on 'strong
wind', an egregious mockery to those slain. Due to my being deported and
banned from the country, the ongoing reign of terror against 'opposition'
figures, I've not yet been able to return to Odessa to pay my tribute.
I'll be back one day, for sure, to pay my tribute to those who stood against
the fascism of this new, post-Euromaidan Ukraine are as one with the city of
Odessa, the city they came from, the city they died in – proud, defiant,
glorious.
… and an Odessa eyewitness to the bestial May 2 massacre
The Kiev Coup government is incapable of investigating any of this
The Kiev Coup government is incapable of investigating any of this
[ Editors Note: This was very unpleasant work to have to do this morning, but we have always
represented the dead here at VT as best we could.
The US and EU have ignored all requests to use their extensive leverage to either have Kiev reign
in Right Sector, meaning disarm and disband it as a national security threat.
But the Western powers, having gotten away with using terrorist para-military proxy troops in
Syria and other places, has developed a "no fear" policy for the continued use. The underlying
problem is the almost blanket diplomatic immunity the politician and government perpetrators have
enjoyed.
I have written here a number of times that countries all over the world need to take a new look
at diplomatic immunity. One of the carrots driving the close relationship between international
crime syndicates and top level political structures is protecting the nasty things they do,
crimes against humanity and war crimes charges, by hiding them behind security classifications
and then immunity from prosecution.
We at VT have been warning all along that if Right Sector was allowed to operate independently
then it was just a matter of time before a "demonstration massacre" took place, despite the low
level of violence so far in East Ukraine.
But one of our concerns has been the Western powers wanted something like this to happen to have
the Russians move in so they could then say, "We told you so", and proceed with a major sanctions
program. And yes, the is definitely evil enough to do something like that, and a lot more.
Hell on earth comes to Odessa
Hell on earth comes to Odessa
Most of us know that no Western government gives a hoot about the Ukrainian people. The West is
there to exploit them pure and simple, exactly what we used to accuse the Soviet of doing.
While VT would not be unhappy to see the Russians move in now to provide security and round up
the nationalist terrorists in Odessa…the real ones, for now it is time to put the flame thrower
on the UN.
It is also time to let the citizens of the US and Europe have one last chance to scare the hell
out of their various crooked government entities.
Why? Because if there is not hell to pay, politically and diplomatically by all those involved in
the Ukraine escalation, then we are looking at a template that will be used against the rest of
us at the time and choosing of our rouge element elites. I guarantee you that will happen.. Jim
W. Dean ]
_____________________________
An elderly woman raped and they set afire...evidence of something more than a political dispute
An elderly woman raped and they set afire…evidence of something more than a political dispute
VT would like to thank Mr. Engdahl for these excellent example of investigation journalism. As
you will read below, corporate media is keeping the two words "Right Sector" out of the coverage,
revealing themselves as aiders and abettors.
A lot of heads should roll for this. The US and EU have ignored all pleas to disarm and monitor
Right Sector
A lot of heads should roll for this. The US and EU have ignored all pleas to disarm and monitor
Right Sector
The following video is from a woman who is a resident of Odessa and who managed to survive in the
center of the horror day of May 2 when more than 40 people perished and hundreds were injured.
The extensive photo and videos taken are increasingly documenting a savage, deliberately-planned
assault by members of the Ukraine Pravy Sektor armed mafia thugs, with connivance of the
Ukrainian regional police and Kiev government.
What follows is a summary from a Ukrainian speaking friend who just wrote me, "In this video is a
woman from Odessa who survived the horror day of 2 April. She is an important eye-witness and
tells what she saw and what she heard. Here is a brief summary of her comments in the YouTube
video:
Many of the dead had been
shot, some through the head execution style
–The ‚pro-Russian'
activists had no weapons, only sticks or bats.
– The molotov cocktails
came from outside the building.
–The (pro-Kiev or
anti-Russian) radicals (later identified as mainly Pravy
Sektor-w.e.) stormed the Trade Union house and in a short
time managed to break in.
– The woman in the
video said she, along with three other women, and around
twelve men, also with two dead men who were already dead
(suffocated from the fire of the Molotov cocktails and the
smoke), were in another room. The men had brought the two
dead men to the women for first aid but it was too late….
They then managed to blockade the entry to their room with
cabinets and boxes and managed to hold the door for about 15
minutes.
–In this time all 16
barricaded people heard shots in the hallway.
–Then someone banged on
the door and pleaded they let them get out of the hall. They
said they were also pro-autonomy (i.e. anti-Kiev) activists.
–After a brief
reflection and discussion the men inside the room wanted to
move the cabinets blocking the door, leaving only a small
crack of the door open, to see what the situation was. Then
the young thugs (they had lied) began immediately to shoot
through the tiny door opening into the room where the 16
were.
–The woman (in the
video) looked one of the thugs in the eye. He wore a black
mask and, laughing, shot her with his pistol, but thank God,
missing, and then shouted to his buddies, "I killed a
Koloradin!", slang for those seeking federal autonomy for the
regional provinces.
Bodies everywhere
-Then the thugs threw
maybe 4 aerosol ballons with some sort of gas, into our room
and 2-3 minutes later after the gas affected our men, they
managed to break open the door and enter our room.
–And then immediately
they shot all the men; and those who still were alive they
beat to death with hard bats. This with their words, "Let's
save the bullets and kill them so…" These beasts also beat
the two dead men, despite the fact the women creid out that
they were already dead…
–Then the thugs
discussed that they wanted to bring the dead into the cellar.
-The four women begged
them for mercy…and this woman (in the video-w.e.) told them
that she had a small child and so…
- The four women were
taken into the hallway and there was a real Hell. Many dead
bodies lay everywhere, even on the stairway. Many of the
terrorist thugs with dirty jokes, dragged the dead together,
to be thrown in to the cellar.
-Then the thugs grabbed
one of the four women and shoved her somewhere. The witness
(in the video) only heard her screams…then no more from the
woman.
A young woman and
man…unarmed, as all the others were
-The woman (in the
video) was then interrogated for about fifteen minutes. The
terrorist thugs demanded that she tell them the truth that
she was a Russian. But she had a Ukrainian passport with her
residence listed in Odessa.
-In the midst of all
the chaos, she managed to flee the house where by then
firemen and police stood. The firemen came after one hour
twenty minutes, even though a fire station was directly
across the street from the trade union house. They claimed
they had been blocked from acting by the terrorist thugs.
All Ukrainian
politicians in Kiev had praise for the massacre of the
innocent civilians. And the terrorist thugs got bonus money.
In the basement of the
house afterwards, many more dead bodies were found. Many
others simply vanished.
Those who had been
taken to hospitals soon fled from their beds because the
Ukraine SBU security police were siezing all personal data
from them in order later to get further revenge."
_________________________________
The suspected killer of the
pregnant woman is on the left
The video in Ukrainian:
And here is a second video
from another source in English with
a similar reportage.
As of latest reports from
journalists the woman in the Odessa video has since been
threatened and is urgently seeking to get asylum outside
Ukraine.
Only the start…
The protester camp was burned
to drive them into the building where Right Sector was
waiting for them
With full backing from
Washington at the moment, the Pravy Sektor apparently feels
it has carte blanche to wage their terror and criminal
beastiality.
The latest Tweet reports from
RT eyewitness peace-correspondent, Irina Galushko, who
reports from Odessa, say that Ivan Katerinchuk–the name of
new regional police chief whom some say was instrumental in
Friday's clashes–told the Pravy Sektor (Right Sector)
terrorist thugs in Odessa afterwards that he had also been on
the Maidan Square (Where Right Sector controlled the protest
sites with extreme violence-w.e.), and that he "hopes the
Right Sector will be helpful and diligent (sic)." He opened
his initial speech to the public with a traditional Pravy
Sektor chant, "glory to heroes." The crowd answers with
traditional "death to enemies."[1]
On being named the new
regional Police head, Katerinchuk immediately declared that
"separatism is illegal, unlawful, so is its propaganda," to
the cheers of thugs from Right Sector.[2]
Eyewitness reports further
say that thousands of such Right Sector thugs and other
neo-nazis are streaming into eastern Ukraine and Odessa
regions. The stage is being set for a full-scale civil war in
eastern Ukraine between some ten million Russian-speaking
citizens and the rest of the country.
The mainstream western media
to date is stone silent on the role of the Pravy Sektor
criminals in the events. God forbid if this insanity is
allowed to spread further, as it will likely at some point
draw Putin in and then Victoria Nuland, Susan Rice, Samantha
Power and CIA head John Brennan have their world war
slaughter they devoutly crave.
It's clear that the number of casualties in the Trade Unions House is far greater.
Provocateurs captivated people into the building where it was possible to kill them with
impunity, with great relish, and without witnesses. Fire inside the building was directed in
order to hide mass murdering of Ukrainian citizens.
Firstly, the tents on the square were set on fire which resulted in appearance of large open fire
areas close to the building. People were captivated to hide behind massive doors of the Trade
Unions House. Federalism supporters had no Molotov's cocktails prepared in advance. From where
has fire inside the building appeared?
People behind the doors of the ground floor have been attacked by the Right Sector thugs who got
in there long before the execution has begun. Those people were burned to the bones, first at
main entrance…
…Then at rest of them.
[May 03, 2015] Очевидец о произошедшем в Одессе 2 мая
Ополченец Пекарь родом из Одессы. Он участвовал в куликовском движении с самого начала. Был
свидетелем зверств бандеровцев в Одессе 2 мая 2014 года. Сейчас он воюет против бандеровцев в
составе шахтерской дивизии.
Не раз уже писал, что считаю выродками тех либеральных российских евреев, которые сегодня дружно
скачут во славу нацii и смерть ворогам. Потому что они предали национальную память своего народа
- все эти альбацы, рубинштейны и прочий мусор человеческий.
Но лучше всего на данную тему мог сказать только еврей. И Амирам сделал это в своей превосходной
манере:
A provisional memorial in front of the Trade Unions House recalls the victims. There are photos,
flowers, wreaths, and candles. "It is a heavy trauma," says Sergey Dibrov, journalist and witness.
His Odessa, known for tolerance and high spirits, has never experienced anything like it. "It goes
against the traditions of the city," says the 42-year-old. "Problems are solved peacefully here."
Dibrov is a member of the "May 2 Group," a collection of journalists, experts, and activists from
both sides who have conducted an independent investigation of the events. Shortly before the anniversary
of the events, the group presented its findings: the tragedy in Odessa was the result of an act
of provocation that spun out of control.
However, one of the most important questions that Sergey Dibrov and his colleagues failed to find
an answer to was: why didn't the police do anything? "They were scared to take on the responsibility,"
is his attempt at an explanation. Police and ambulance corps were in a "disastrous state" at the
time. Yet, many in Odessa find it difficult to believe that the whole situation was simply a chain
of events.
US armored vehicles, which were pompously a few weeks ago, welcomed at the Kiev airport by Petro
Poroshenko, are deployed in the center of Odessa to intimidate the local population on the eve of
the anniversary of the tragedy on 2nd of May. Ukraine Deports Italian Journalist for Odessa Massacre Truth
President Vladimir Putin is right when he said that anything the United States touches turns
into Libya or Iraq. I believed that it is the warmongers and some religious fanatics special interest
neo-conservatives and some liberal groups that are behind all of this chaos. Besides Libya and
Iraq we also have Ukraine, Syria and now Yemen ( there are others). If these wackos have their
way, I am sure Iran is in their horizon.
Militia-Deputy Igor Mosiychuk "Congratulated" Ukraine on the Anniversary of the Murders at the
Trade Union House
May 3rd, 2015
- adapted from Novorosinform by Joaquin Flores -
All truly civilized people remember the tragedy of the May 2nd Odessa massacre, the burning and
murder of concerned citizens of the city, in the House of Trade Unions. In the meantime, the Nazis
of "the Ukrainian authorities", its adherents and protectors. named this day "the Day of Victory
over the Russian occupiers and their collaborators." For these non-humans today, this is a "holiday"
that they remember and are proud of. One of the guilty participants of the murders, the soulless
Igor Mosiychuk, "Deputy" of the Verkhovna Rada of Lyashko's "Radical Party", commented on the memorable
day. The translation:
"May 2nd is a landmark day for Odessa, including for Ukraine as a whole. On May 2 last year,
Ukrainian patriots defended Ukrainian Odessa from invaders and collaborators. Without fear for
their own lives and safety, our patriots wiped evil spirits from Odessa, and affirmed the place
as the southern Ukrainian outpost in the Black Sea. Then there was a war with the separatists
and occupiers in the Donbass. There were victories and defeats. There was plenty of heroism and
victory. But the first victory for Ukraine's fight with the ancient enemy, our Odessa patriots
won in defending your city from the enemy. I Remember! I am proud! Congratulations, gentlemen!
"
Everybody:
The Odessa fire memorial is taking place in Odessa right now (as of 14:00 Kiev time).
I found this live feed to watch it
.
Be aware that when you click on the live feed, they make you choose an ad, and you have to watch
the ad first. People are just starting to gather and make speeches…
P.S. – just praying fervently that there will be no violence today.
Otherwise, I will have watched violence that was sponsored by a Luv's diaper commercial.
I remember, back when Gaddafi was killed, in order to watch his gruesome murder on youtube,
I had to first watch an ad for Roche chocolates.
There is something not right about that. (In addition to violence not being right, in and of
itself.)
Violence on the memorial day itself… that would surprise me. It would risk attracting
outside attention, putting the massacre back in people's minds, while the Maidan regime
would prefer that the whole affair be forgotten. Organisers and participants should watch
their backs in the days, weeks and months after today though.
In Slavonic Orthographic news:
At the entrance to the city of Donetsk, the new Separatist government
modified the city sign
from Ukrainian spelling to Russian.
In the Ukrainian orthography, the town is spelled :Донецьк, with a "soft sign" letter ("m'akh'ki
znak") between the letters ц (ts) and к (k). Russian spelling is Донецк, without the soft
sign. In fact, in Russian dialect, the letter ц is pronounced as a hard consonant, without the
tongue touching the upper palate.
To fix this toponym to Russian spelling, the construction workers removed the letter ь and
then moved the к one over, to the left.
Passing motorists saw what the workers were doing, and honked their approval.
The trained linguist in me says that spelling doesn't matter.
Nor does language or dialect – "what's in a name?" as Shakespeare quoth.
But I do get why they did it. And if I were there, I would have removed the ь myself,
with my own hands.
That's what this has come to.
Please note, only episode 1 – 3 have been translated by VPE. There are 8 episodes to this translations
by VPE. I believe VPE is translating the rest. I hope he/she is.
Valentina Lisitsa posted
this
tweet .
Some Ukrainian psycho named Alexander Melanchenko had tweeted the following, celebrating the Odessa
massacre anniversay and mocking the victims as burned meat:
"Dear comrades. Happy Shish-kabob day! I wish you lots of fried meat and red wine. And of course
the best company. Shashlyk. Wine. May."
That isn't the newsworthy part.
The newsworthy part is that Arsen Avakov, a paid official of Ukrainian government (Minister of
Internal Affairs), saw that tweet, and gave it a "like" on his Facebook page.
I cannot imagine even Goering or Goebbels officially and publicly celebrating the burning of
people alive, as Avakov does. In fact, the Nazis took some care to conceal their crimes.
Whereas Ukrainian government officials have descended to the level of brain-dead mad dogs,
or cartoonish Hollywood serial killers who strut in the public square and boast of their own gory
crimes.
Such an elaborate dance around facts by despicable bottom feeders. From comments: "It is so depressing
when there is far more information in the comments section than in the article itself. It seems the
new editor is keen to continue the traditions of her predecessor." This is one event about which there
is quite a lot of information to see how Guardian presstitutes try to bent the truth. See
Odessa Massacre of May 2, 2014
The emergency calls became increasingly desperate. "When are you coming? It's already burning
and there are people inside," a woman told the fire brigade dispatcher. Minutes later, callers started
describing how people were jumping from the upper floors. "Have you lost your minds?" one man asked,
his voice breaking. "There are women and children in the building!" another man yelled. In one of
the most deadly episodes in Ukraine's turbulent 2014 power transition, 48 people were killed and
hundreds injured on 2 May last year in the Black Sea port of Odessa.
Street battles culminated in a fatal fire at Soviet-era building where hundreds of pro-Russia
activists were barricaded in.
VengefulRevenant -> AlfredHerring 1 May 2015 17:24
The victims are the ones who were raped, shot or burned to death in the massacre.
The perpetrators are those protected by the NATO-backed regime which has failed to investigate
the massacre.
The apologists are the NATO-aligned media who blame the victims or assign blame equally to the
killers and the dead along the lines of, 'There was heroism and cruelty on both sides.'
normankirk -> Metronome151 1 May 2015 16:52
Well isn't it wonderful to hear a diversity of views expressed on Russian TV. When all we hear
is how all media is controlled by the Kremlin
Kaiama Danram 1 May 2015 16:48
So the dead Ukrainian children and women are Kremlin goons too?
How simple your life must be to allow you to make such simplistic conclusions.
vr13vr 1 May 2015 16:46
Some nice whitewashing. Now it's fault of the victims and the heroism of the perpetrators,
there hasn't been and there will be no investigation and the word massacre is no longer used.
For those of you who still argue it was not a massacre but some mysterious suicide by 48 people
who set themselves afire, here is footage again.
Take a look at some of the pretty revealing moments:
23 min mark - Ukrainians are entering the building, there was no resistance.
24:20. A group of Ukrainians go upstairs, there is no fire yet.
26:20 Some are coming returning. The stairs are being set on fire.
27:50 A Ukrainian is firing gun at those trying to jump from the building.
While in the building, Ukrainians were slaughtering people. And it wasn't a fight. Half of the
victims were middle-aged. At least 10 of them - women.
31min - 33min - the victims who got out have their faces and hands disfigured while the rest of
their bodies don't have the same injuries. That's what happens if someone splashes fuel over someone's
face and light it up. There are pictures of victims with only their heads and hands burned.
33min - 35min - there were women among those trying to find safety in the building. Some of them
are middle-aged. They were not fighters, as the article would imply.
36min- 37min - Ukrainians were inside the building, setting it on fire and killing those whom
they could find, a young woman in this specific frame.
46min - a person was bludgeoned to death. The room doesn't have marks of fire but the blood is
splattered all over the room.
48min-50min - the same story, Ukrainians were slaughtering their victims.
1h:00min - Ukrainians are entering the building again, this time from the make shift scaffolding.
Any attempt to pretend there was a fight rather than a massacre is crazy. Any suggestion that
somehow people inside were setting themselves on fire is ludicrous in light of evidence that the
Ukis were inside the building. And the fact that Kiev doesn't even see it as murder makes me just
angry.
AbsolutelyFapulous -> PlatonKuzin 1 May 2015 16:43
Odessa as well as the most Ukraine is a Russian soil.
Donno why you are commenting here. You even don't seem to be able to read a map.
BorninUkraine -> RonBuckley 1 May 2015 16:25
In a way, you are right, it was the US (via Vicky "f… the EU" Nuland and mad John McCain)
that pushed Ukraine over the cliff. As usual, the EU "leaders" (Merkel, etc) acted as US lackeys.
However, equal blame goes to stupid and thieving Ukrainian elites, under whose "leadership"
the country was on the edge of that cliff to begin with.
Current Ukrainian "leaders" keep stealing everything they can, including financial and material
aid from the West. What else is new?
MaoChengJi -> Goodthanx 1 May 2015 16:03
Yeah. I'm convinced that they should've sent paratroopers and take Kiev right the next day
after the coup d'etat; stop this whole unholy mess right then and there. That really would've
saved tens of thousands of lives - if not millions, seeing how this thing seems to escalate, leading
us to a nuclear war.
Putin is a pussy, Medvedev got it right in Georgia in 2008. Well, frankly Medvedev is a pussy
too. He should've taken Tbilisi, and put Saakashvili on trial.
To teach the bastards a lesson.
Instead, now we hear every day 'Russia will not fight Ukraine', 'Russia will not fight Ukraine',
and the murdering Nazi bastards get bolder and bolder. What's the point of having all that military
hardware if you're afraid to use it. They Yanks would've taken control of the place months ago,
look at Grenada.
RonBuckley -> BorninUkraine 1 May 2015 15:52
Well said, man. Yes, Ukrainian politics have always been divisive, stupid, thievery and corrupt.
That said they had neither brains nor money for a coup. So Ukraine should thank certain external
powers for the deep shit it is in now.
PlatonKuzin -> puttypants 1 May 2015 15:31
Odessa as well as the most Ukraine is a Russian soil. That's the point. And the state of Ukraine
is a temporary occupier of the Russian soil. So people living in Odessa don't have to go to Russian.
They are right at their home. This is the state of Ukraine that has stayed on our Russian land
for 23 years now. It's time for the quasi-state of Ukraine to leave.
BorninUkraine -> puttypants 1 May 2015 15:16
I was born in Lvov in Western Ukraine, I grew up in Lugansk in the East, I have friends and
relatives all over, and I know exactly what is going on in Ukraine.
Ukraine in 1991 was extremely heterogenous. In the area West of Carpatian mountains people
speak Hungarian, Romanian, and Rusine (a form of old Russian, spoken in Kievan Rus).
Galichina and Volynia in the West speak several dialects of Ukrainian. Many in Central Ukraine
speak what is considered literary Ukrainian. In the South and East (historic Novorossia) and in
Kharkov region (historic Slobozhanschina) the majority speaks "surgik", a mix of pidgin-Ukrainian
and pidgin-Russian. Finally, in Crimea people speak Russian, Tatar, and very few speak Ukrainian.
Crimea voted AGAINST Ukraine in 1991 referendum and got a chance to run away in 2014, when Ukraine
committed suicide.
If the leaders of Ukraine had any brains and loved their country, they would have followed
the example of Switzerland and Singapore, having many official languages. However, all Ukrainian
rulers from day one were thieves and idiots. They made Ukrainian the only official language and
pushed it everywhere, so that while you could get school education in several languages, all colleges
operated only in Ukrainian, putting people who spoke other languages at a disadvantage.
That idiotic policy started this whole mess, which with a bit of US money, prodding, and now
arms became a civil war. Not to mention that Galichina is the place that fought against Russia
in WWI (as part of Austro-Hungarian empire, siding with Kaiser) and WWII (siding with Hitler).
They supplied the troops that under Hitler's command murdered thousands of civilians in Ukraine,
Poland, Belarus, and Slovakia. Bandera, Shuhevich, and veterans of Waffen SS division Galichina,
who are considered heroes by current puppets in Kiev, voluntarily served Hitler.
80% of Ukrainian population hates these Bandera worshippers, so when external forces push them
to power, it creates trouble. Personally I hate them for giving a bad name to everything Ukrainian.
BorninUkraine -> AbsolutelyFapulous 1 May 2015 15:10
Russia failed to send its troops to Donbass, and Ukrainian army killed thousands of civilians
there, including women, children, elderly, and disabled veterans.
Or is saying things explicitly beyond your pay grade?
RonBuckley -> AbsolutelyFapulous 1 May 2015 15:06
To Odessa Kiev sent a few hundred pro-Nazi thugs - 42 died.
To Donetsk and Luhansk Kiev sent a few thousand pro-Nazi thugs plus the entire Ukrainian army
- 6000 died.
Get it now?
Goodthanx -> Anette Mor 1 May 2015 15:04
For me it was the silence... You are right! Seeing what i was seeing, with no commentry to
convince me either way.. How could the worlds media be so silent?
Then with MH, it was the complete opposite!! Immediately and with no investigation, MSM could
not shut up about who they thought was responsible!!
Both fail the logic test miserably. But try explaining common sense to those that haven't any.
Goodthanx -> Chirographer 1 May 2015 14:48
Those protesters were Ukrainian Pro Federalists! Not one Russian amongst them!
Anette Mor -> Goodthanx 1 May 2015 14:46
Good for you. It is impossible to hide truth with current state of technology. Only not showning.
Any life reporting give the footage adding facts one by one and crwating a true picture eventually.
Even this rather bias article contributes to true story because the lie in it sticks out of logic
for anybody we is able to think for themselves.
PlatonKuzin -> ID5868758 1 May 2015 14:42
Western media are not simply mirror images of the fascist governments they support. Acting
the way they do, these media prepare the public for a future war.
Anette Mor -> vr13vr 1 May 2015 14:41
It is poinless to try to install fear in these people. Need to look at the history of people's
wars in Russia. Since 17 century they were able to resist occupation and unwanted rulers by people
war. There wpuld not be a win against Napoleon and Hitler without people rising and forming resistance.
Same in Odessa now. Just a matter of time.
BunglyPete -> Chirographer 1 May 2015 14:35
The explanation is very simple. Right Sector had free reign to terrorise pro Russians, so he
took action. Kiev choose not to punish Right Sector both then and now. He said this in the same
interview you constantly reference.
Now can you explain why you think it is acceptable for Right Sector to terrorise the Donbass?
If Strelkov wasnt allowed to defend them, who was?
Anette Mor -> Jeff1000 1 May 2015 14:34
Not sure why you call them pro-Russians. Odessa is multi-national city. These who were massacred
are simply local people who disagreed with the violent coup which put to power by the west. Does
it make them "pro-russian" and justify thier killing? Surely these who want own country to be
coverned by own elected officials could not be pro- another country. If they trust Russian government
care for them more then thier own coup, that only says how bad the coup rule is.
Goodthanx -> Chirographer 1 May 2015 14:24
Forget about the Russian government. The idea is justice for the victims and punishment for
the perpetrators. Is it the ambition of the UN to be percieved as bias as so called Russuan investigators
would be?
Kaiama -> truk10 1 May 2015 14:22
FFS there are enough links and analysis to demonstrate that pro-Kiev forces inflicted a massacre
of civilians here. I don't see any pro-Ukraine links to additional information but an overwhelming
deluge of links supporting the unvoiced version of events.
ID5868758 1 May 2015 14:18
Our western media have really become mirror images of the fascist governments they support.
By publishing such whitewashing attempts as this, they only enable more such behavior in the future,
behavior that leads to the deaths of more innocents, more civilians whose only desire is to live
in freedom and peace.
Kaiama 1 May 2015 14:13
It is so depressing when there is far more information in the comments section than in the
article itself. It seems the new editor is keen to continue the traditions of her predecessor.
Goodthanx -> Chirographer 1 May 2015 14:09
What kind of a teenage girl carries in their backpack petrol, empty bottles, rags and whatever
else is required to make Molotov cocktails? What a coincidence... there is a group of them!!
As for Right Sector? Chartered buses transported Right Sector militia which arrived early in the
day. These were the people communicating with police from the start.
MaoChengJi -> MaoChengJi 1 May 2015 13:51
Speaking of the media... I've been reading this Odessa news website: http://timer-odessa.net/
, and it has been relatively informative (as much as Ukro-sites can be, these days). And today
suddenly it's gone dark: "there is no Web site at this address".
Does anyone know if it's gone for good? I really hope those who were running it are safe...
Jean-François Guilbo -> truk10 1 May 2015 13:51
So you didn't watch the video link in my comment did you?
If you just take this article for granted to know on which side the Odessa police was, you won't
learn much on what happened...
Seems like the officier on the picture would have been recognised as a colonel from Odessa police,
watch this link:
And from these two links, these armed guys not afraid to shoot from the crowd, could have been
agents provocateur...
BorninUkraine -> IrishFred 1 May 2015 13:47
Are you saying that Bandera, Shuhevich, and veterans of Waffen SS division Galichina never
existed? If so, please state it explicitly.
Are you saying all of the above did not serve Hitler voluntarily? If so, please state it explicitly.
Are you saying all of the above are not guilty of mass murder and other crimes against humanity?
If so, please state it explicitly.
Are you saying that people who are murdering their opponents, politicians and journalists,
are not Nazis? If so, please state it explicitly.
As to Crimea, if you knew any history, you'd know that it was illegally annexed by Ukraine
in 1991. Here is history 101, not necessarily for you, but for those who actually want to know
the truth.
Russia deployed its troops in Crimea, and nobody was killed there. Russia failed to send its
troops to Donbass, and Ukrainian army killed thousands of civilians there, including women, children,
elderly, and disabled veterans.
As many Ukrainians joke now, "Crimeans are traitors: they ran away without us".
Your next argument?
Jeff1000 -> Chirographer 1 May 2015 13:45
Don't display callous and willful ignorance and call it even-handedness. The Guardian's "credible"
account offers no sources, agrees with none of the available pictorial or video evidence and is
rampant apologism.
I posted videos - including raw CCTV footage of the starting of the fire, further up the page.
BunglyPete -> coffeegirl 1 May 2015 13:40
I saw that guy's post it was fantastic, very well sourced and thorough. The comments on here
were a different kettle of fish entirely back then.
Jeff1000 1 May 2015 13:39
The attempt to re-package this event as some awful conglomeration of circumstances spurred
on by the cruelty of fate is sickening. We reduce the death of at least 50 people down so that
calling it a "massacre" becomes needlessly emotive. We casually refer to the pro-Ukrainians as
"football fans" to make it seem innocent - when Ukrainian football fans known as "Ultras" are
famours for 2 things: Being neo-Nazis, and being violent thugs.
Look at this video especially: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAEcceedzCU
It's really very simple - candid videos at the time made it clear.
1. Pro-Russian groups were attacked by Ukrainian "ultras". They sought shelter in the Trade Union
building.
2. The building was set on fire when the Ultras threw molotovs through the windows. The doors
were barred.
3. People attempting to climb out of the windows were shot at, if they jumped they were beaten
as they lay on the ground.
4. Ukrainian nationalists deliberately blockaded the streets to inhibit the progress of ambulances
and fire engines.
Only a week after The Odessa Massacre an american CiFer, ex-marine, has gathered links, sieved
through hours and hours of video - he, practically, has done what the journos were supposed to
do, - to prove the Guardian, BBC and the rest were trying hard to whitewash the atrocity. Check
his posts: Additional proof that the BBC and the mainstream Western press lied when they said
both sides threw the molotov's.
I looked for 5 hours searching for one video that showed anyone in the building throwing a
molotov cocktail as the BBC first reported and the rest of the MSM went along with. I could not
find a single one. They claimed a person named Sergei (what are the odds of that) told them a
person threw the molotov inside the building and didn't realize the window was closed. This is
absolutely ludicrous and an example of the pathetic reporting that passes for "news" these days.
I did find the video of the third floor fire starting. It is at the following link and runs
consecutively. You'll notice at exactly the 2 minute mark the camera zooms in on the window where
the fire begins. You'll also notice that at the 2:02 mark you see an additional molotov cocktail
just miss the window. This is strong evidence that the window was being targeted by individuals
on the ground. Prior to this fire starting there is no other fire on the third floor, therefore
this is most likely the cause of the third floor fire and lends credence to the fact that the
violent youth below burned those people alive.
And not just "Russian state-owned media" - also most of the Russian privately owned media,
and most of the world media (and even some of the western media).
I believe I saw a chinadaily calling it Kristallnacht.
Jeff1000 1 May 2015 13:16
Russian state-owned media characterised the day's events as a "massacre" planned by "fascists"
in Kiev, a narrative that has gained widespread traction.
Mostly because it's a pretty fitting description of what happened.
Its not hard truk. Those red armbands that the so called pro Russian provocatores wore? Are
actually the same red armbands Right sector militia was wearing during the most violent Maidan
clashes. You can identify some of the same protagonists wearing the same armband in both Odesaa
and Maidan!
vr13vr -> truk10 1 May 2015 13:07
Idiot. Nobody is laughing. Especially when 50 people died. Look at this video and see how Ukrainians
entered the supposedly "heavily defended" building. You will see them operating inside, you will
see them existing the building after it started burning from inside.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxcB0PI4ZLg
Look at 23 min mark - they are entering the building with no resistance.
24:20. A group of Ukrainians go upstairs, there is no fire yet.
26:20 Some are coming returning. The stairs are being set on fire.
27:50 A Ukrainian is firing gun at those trying to jump from the building.
Yes, Ukrainians overrun the building, including the roof. The photographs suggest that people
in the building where set afire while still alive.
You must be an idiot to say someone is laughing at this.
castorsia -> truk10 1 May 2015 13:02
No. They burned them. Check the photographic evidence.
PlatonKuzin -> vr13vr 1 May 2015 12:58
Armored vehicles and special riot forces were brought today in Odessa to prevent possible unrest
there.
WHYNOPASSWORD12 -> Havingalavrov 1 May 2015 12:56
Plenty of witnesses point out that these were pro-ukraine provacateurs sent up to stir up trouble.
They are wearing the same red armbands worn by a group who started the skirmishes earlier in the
town centre. They were part of the group bussed-in under the guise of football supporters.
MaoChengJi -> truk10 1 May 2015 12:55
Hi turk10,
I understand your confusion. Luckily, Mr. Christof Lehmann investigated it all for you. Seek and
ye shall find. Use google.
vr13vr 1 May 2015 12:50
Sure, Kiev views burning alive almost 50 people as a "victory." They even allowed to install
fear in the city. Since then the city is totally subdued, people would be afraid to even discuss
the events or think of any peaceful opposition as they are aware of the potential response from
Kiev's supporters.
Nice job Guardian trying to whitewash the events and justify the cold blooded murder by some street
fights elsewhere in the city, events that were taking place all over the country those days.
Jeremn -> oleteo 1 May 2015 12:40
No greater cynics than western politicians, who certainly don't mourn this heavenly half-hundred,
or come to lay flowers at the scene of their death.
No greater cynic than the Czech envoy, Bartuska, who said:
"Groups of civilians - including men, women and children - seize government buildings. Within
two days they get arms and after that women and children disappear, leaving only the armed men.
If they [independence supporters] are quickly resisted, as it was done in Odessa where they were
simply burned to death, or Dnepropetrovsk, where they were simply killed and buried by the side
of the road, everything will be calm. If this is not done, then there will be war. That's all."
ID5868758 1 May 2015 12:18
Another despicable attempt to paint a false equivalency, to assign blame for this massacre,
for their own deaths, on those who perished. Take the Molotov cocktail throwing, for instance.
I watched the videos of those Molotov cocktails being made, pretty little pro-Ukrainian girls
sitting on the ground with their assembly line all set up, smiling as they made those instruments
of death and handed them out, now just where did those supplies come from, who thought to bring
bottles and rags and fuel to an event if it was innocent in nature?
And where would those innocent victims chased inside the building get Molotov cocktails to
throw from inside the building, when they were interested only in escaping the smoke and flames,
saving their own lives? The narrative doesn't match the evidence, but neither does it pass the
smell test, pretty SOP for western media reporting on Ukraine.
StillHaveLinkYouHate -> MaoChengJi 1 May 2015 11:56
The difference is that Nazis want to murder people for the accident of how they were born.
Extreme natinalists will want to murder anybody who does not behave in the perverted way they
feel a patriot should.
That is the difference. Praviy sektor are nazis, incidentally.
It makes the point already made below in this comment thread:
I invite people to imagine how the British media would have reported this massacre if roles
had been reversed and if it had been Maidan supporters who were burnt alive in the Trade Union
building with an anti Maidan crowd filmed throwing Molotov cocktails into the building whilst
baying for blood outside.
Indeed.
GreatCthulhu -> Metronome151 1 May 2015 11:45
Many of them not locals.
I thought the article was pretty clear that everyone on both sides were local. I speak, of
course s an Irish man who doesn't regard hating Russians/ people who identify with Russia who
aren't Russians but live nearby as a default position before beginning any debate.
There are a small minority of Irish people, living in the Republic (I am not referring to the
northern Unionist Community here), who identify with Britain often to the point that they express
regret that Ireland ever left the UK. I don't agree with them, but I would not set them on fire
in a building. For that matter, it is ARGUABLE (I am not saying whether that argument is right
or wrong- just that you could put forward the thesis) that the N.I state-let is something of an
Irish Donbass. No justification for Ireland shelling the crap out of it though... at all... that
sort of stuff is kind of regarded as savagery here these days.
MaoChengJi -> truk10 1 May 2015 11:43
Hi turk10,
what's wrong with calling them 'nazis'? The guardian piece identifies them as "extreme nationalists",
and isn't it the same thing as 'neo-nazis' or 'nazis'?
Is there some nuance I'm missing here? What would you call them?
BorninUkraine -> truk10 1 May 2015 11:38
So you object to calling a spade a spade? Typical pro-US position in Ukrainian crisis. What
do you call the insignia of, for example, Azov battalion (see here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion
). If that's not Nazi insignia, I don't know what is.
I am simply saying that those who organized Odessa massacre, then Mariupol massacre, then fueled
the war in Donbass, including Poroshenko, Turchinov, Yats, etc, are Nazis.
The simple reason for that conclusion is, as the saying goes, "if it looks like a duck, if
it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, it is a duck". If you prefer Christian version
of the same thing, see Mathew 7:16 "you will know them by their fruits".
To sum it up, if someone behaves like a Nazi, s/he is a Nazi. Is this clear enough?
EugeneGur 1 May 2015 11:28
A pro-Russia activist aims a pistol at supporters of the Kiev government during clashes
in the streets of Odessa, 2 May 2014.
How do we know that the guy is pro-Russian? Does the picture show what he is aiming at? Does
he have a sign on his forehead burned in saying "I am pro-Russian and I am going to shoot that
pro-Ukrainian bastard"? No, he does not. We are expected to assume that because the caption says
so - but captions to pictures aren't evidence. Anybody can put any caption to any picture, and
it's been done many a time.
The head of the local pro-Ukraine Maidan self-defence group, Dmitry Gumenyuk, recalled the
effect of the homemade grenades. . . they threw a grenade and it exploded under his bullet-proof
vest and four nails entered his lungs," he said.
Such peaceful people - going for a nice in the park walk in bullet-proof vests. They were going
to destroy that camp and not on the agreement with the activists in that camp, as Guardian states
(complete BS) but violently, which they did. Even if they were attacked, what did women in the
camp have to do with it?
Come on, people, even in the face of such a tragedy, is it so absolutely necessary to hush up
the truth all the time?
BorninUkraine -> caliento 1 May 2015 11:24
There is a Ukrainian joke. Russians ask:
- If you believe that Russia annexed Crimea, why don't you fight for it?
- We aren't that stupid, there are Russian troops there.
- But you say there are Russian troops in Donbass?
- That's what we say, but in Crimea there really are Russian troops.
castorsia 1 May 2015 11:21
The Guardian continues to misrepresent the Odesa massacre by reporting claims by the official
Ukrainian investigation and the Odesa governor created May 2 group that the deadly fire started
when both sided were throwing Molotov cocktails. The videos and other evidence showing that the
fire started after the Molotov cocktails and tires were thrown by the attackers are deliberately
omitted.
Open question to you all: What would be in the headlines if scores of "Pro-Ukrainian activists
" were being burned, hacked, mauled, shot and raperd to death by Donetsk rebels or their supporters?
BorninUkraine 1 May 2015 11:20
There are lies, there are blatant lies, and then there are reports of Western media. Sad,
but true.
In this article Howard Amos pretends that he believes that both sides were to blame for the
mass murder of anti-fascists by pro-Maidan thugs in Odessa on May 2, 2014. That's like saying
that both the Nazis and the inmates of concentration camps were equally guilty.
This lie is so outrageous, and so far from reality, that it does not even deserve an argument.
The readers who want to know the truth can do Google search using "Odessa massacre 2014" and read
for themselves.
The lie that the Guardian repeats after Kyiv "government" looks even less plausible now, as
Odessa massacre was followed by the massacre of civilians by Nazi thugs in Mariupol a few days
later (change Odessa to Mariupol in your Google search), and the murder of thousands of civilians
in Donbass, including women, children, elderly, and disabled veterans, by the Ukrainian army and
Nazi battalions.
I grew up in the USSR, but I have never read a lie so obvious and outrageous in the Soviet
media. Congratulations on a new low!
coffeegirl -> aussiereader4 1 May 2015 11:11
Sounds like you know little about what happened in Odessa.
The best compilation of any available material was done on May 8, 2014 by our fellow CiFer US
ex-marine griffin alabama:
You like to cite Strelkov, don't you, when it suits your purpose? If he is such an authority
for you, why don't you cite everything he says? Among other things, he said that Maidan was not
a popular uprising but a pure decoration for the coup organized by the right wing groups and funded
by oligarchs together with the foreign agents? You can watch this here
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2015/02/must-watch-strelkov-vs-starikov-debate.html
greatwhitehunter caliento 1 May 2015 11:08
you would no if you followed events the idea of peace keepers was supported by Russia, the
separatists and a good many other countries right from the start of the conflict . It was not
however supported by the kiev government or the US. Peace keepers were offered to Ukraine right
up until 4 days before the Minsk agreement.
Kiev's solution has always been a military one and still is. There belated cries for
peace keepers only came after getting an a*& kicking.
kiev signed the minsk agreement which requires them to deal with the issues peace keepers would
be a way out for them. Usa by their actions does not support the Minsk agreement.
Poroshenko,s idea of peace keepers was a few kiev friendly states to send weapons and troups to
bolster their ranks.
An offer was made via the UN security council for a peace keeping force that included china
and new zealand and poroshenko stated that ukraine didn't needed china and new Zealand's help,
as it turned out they did.
EugeneGur 1 May 2015 10:54
Oh Guardian, Guardian. Both are to blame, heroism on both sides - in short, they burned themselves.
We've heard that before. But then the article goes on and tells you that the movement they for
some reason call "pro-Russian", although its not pro-Russia as much as it's anti-fascist, is essentially
eliminated, with all leaders in jail or in exile. In contrast,
None of the pro-Ukraine activists have been put on trial
Kind of tells you what actually happened, doesn't it?
Activists from both sides admit that the port city remains divided into two approximately
matched camps
No, they aren't matched. The Odessa residents are mostly anti-Maidan. The city is flooded with
newcomers from the western Ukraine, and they the main supporters of Kiev. Otherwise, why would
Kiev deploy half of the army to Odessa before the May holidays?
Recently Poroshenko who had the temerity to visit Odessa on the anniversary of the city'
liberation from occupation was met with shouts "Fascism will not pass".
So much for "matched camps". Of course, if you put everybody of the opposing view in jail of
kill them, you can sort of achieve a "match".
Elena Hodgson 1 May 2015 10:50
This was a massacre. Period.
Hanwell123 1 May 2015 10:48
Ukraine is a gangster state where if activists aren't arrested then they are shot; 6 prominent
figures shot this year alone. No arrests. It's supported to the hilt by the EU who shell out enormous
sums to keep it from bankruptcy.
nnedjo 1 May 2015 08:42
This is the news from the Ukraine crisis Media Center:
Odesa, April 27, 2015 – Vitaly Kozhukhar, coordinator of the Self-Defense of Odesa, Varvara
Chernoivanenko, a spokesman for the Right Sector of Odesa held a briefing on the topic: "May
2 this year in Odesa. How a single headquarters of the patriotic forces preparing to hold a
day of mourning for those killed in the city"...
Varvara Chernoivanenko said that for all patriots of Ukraine is important that May 2 was peaceful
day. Patriotic forces create patrols that will keep order in the area of Cathedral Square,
which will host a memorial meeting for all those, who died on 2 May. They will make every effort
to ensure peace and order. Already, the city has operational headquarters of the patriotic
forces. Their representatives will stop all provocations. At the same time, according to Varvara
Chernoivanenko, on their part will not be any aggression.
Thus, the "patriotic forces", which I suppose are responsible for burning people alive in the
building of Trade Unions in Odessa, will now protect those who survived and who should hold the
memorial service for their relatives and friends, victims of Odessa massacre. The only question
is, from whom they should protect them?
I mean, this lady from the Right Sector boasts that they organized patrols of its members all
over the city. Well, you can bet that in these patrols will be at least some, if not all of those
who threw Molotov cocktails at the building of trade unions, and beaten with clubs or even shot
at those who tried to escape from the fire. Because, as this article shows, none of them has even
been charged, let alone be convicted of that crime.
So, can we then conclude that the executioners of the victims of the Odessa massacre will now
provide protection to those who mourn the victims, which is a paradox of its kind.
And how these patrols of "patriotic forces" operating in reality, you can watch in this video,
which was filmed during the visit of Poroshenko in Odessa, on the day of the celebration of liberation
of the city in WWII, 10 April. At the beginning of the film, the guys from "Patriotic patrol"
argue with a group of anti-fascists, demanding that they reject one of their flag. And then at
one point (0:31 of the video), one of these guys from patrol says:
"Didn't burn enough of you, eh?"
MaoChengJi 1 May 2015 07:45
Ah, of course: both sides are to blame, because before the massacre an extreme nationalist
militant died, under circumstanced unknown (shot in self-defense, perhaps? who knows).
Nice.
a pro-Ukraine member of the extreme nationalist organisation
Even nicer: 'pro-Ukraine extreme nationalist'. Pro-Ukraine? Which kind of Ukraine?
I find that one of the most misleading elements in these west-interpreted stories is "pro-Russian"
and "pro-Ukrainian" labels.
Truth? One doesn't look for truth in the Graun - the house journal of European Post-Democracy.
The truth will occasionally slip out of one of the Post-Democrats - the Czech diplomat Vaclav
Bartuska, for example:
"Groups of civilians - including men, women and children - seize government buildings. Within
two days they get arms and after that women and children disappear, leaving only the armed men.
If they are quickly resisted, as it was done in Odessa where they were simply burned to death,
or Dnepropetrovsk, where they were simply killed and buried by the side of the road, everything
will be calm. If this is not done, then there will be war. That's all."
The journos of the Graun who want to carry on attending their dinner parties and pretend to be
liberal and decent folk have better sense than to state matters truthfully.
6i9vern 1 May 2015 07:43
Truth? One doesn't look for truth in the Graun - the house journal of European Post-Democracy.
The truth will occasionally slip out of one of the Post-Democrats - the Czech diplomat Vaclav
Bartuska, for example:
"Groups of civilians - including men, women and children - seize government buildings. Within
two days they get arms and after that women and children disappear, leaving only the armed
men. If they are quickly resisted, as it was done in Odessa where they were simply burned to
death, or Dnepropetrovsk, where they were simply killed and buried by the side of the road,
everything will be calm. If this is not done, then there will be war. That's all."
The journos of the Graun who want to carry on attending their dinner parties and pretend to
be liberal and decent folk have better sense than to state matters truthfully.
Vladimir Makarenko -> Celtiberico 1 May 2015 06:20
They took it from Odessa being a symbol of Black Sea and a while ago a Russian poet said: Chernoe
More - Vor na Vore.
Black Sea - a thief by thief.
normankirk 1 May 2015 06:14
This is a shameless attempt to whitewash a massacre.There is plenty of evidence on you tube
Every one has cell phones which can record events as they unfold. This is why the American police
can no longer get away with murder. The European parliament held a hearing in Brussels to hear
the Odessa survivors. there was a concerted effort from Maidan activists from Kiev to shut down
the survivors testimony. A Europarliament deputy from the Czech republic Miroslav said "This is
simply shocking. this is an evidence of fascism not being disappeared from European countries.He
blamed Parubiy, co founder of far right Svoboda party and Kolomoisky, paymaster of neo nazi militia
for the massacre at Odessa. All this is recorded. Ignorance can no longer be a defence
ID075732 1 May 2015 05:53
The US Holocaust Memorial Museum quotes the following, famous text by Pastor Martin Niemoller
about the cowardice of intellectuals following the Nazis':
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me-and there was no one left to speak for me.
It's time for the MSM to realise that the same is happening Ukraine - for which the Odessa massacre
is a warning. It's time they stopped playing intellectual games to prop up what is a fascist regime
in Kiev.
BunglyPete 1 May 2015 05:48
Just in case those involved in the production of this article do read or hear of these comments..
Do you not realise we have Google and Youtube now? You can verify anything within a few keystrokes.
You do not need to rely on the evil Russian media, you can watch the eyewitness videos yourself.
I mean this seriously, if you are going to attempt to prove something then at least realise that
you will need to go to more lengths to do so. In the context of the greater 'propaganda war',
articles like this are nonsensical, as you merely serve to discredit yourself, and encourage people
to move to alternative media sources.
If you want to discredit the Russian narrative then discredit it, don't write things that discredit
your own narrative.
You don't need to bill me for this advice it comes for free.
SHappens 1 May 2015 04:30
Many allege that investigators are dragging their feet for political reasons, possibly to
cover up high-level complicity.
At the beginning of the unrest, the most virulent reaction came from supporters of Ukrainian
football clubs. But they were soon joined by a well-organized gang of self-defense that came in
a column of about 100 people dressed in military fatigues and relatively well equipped.
Members of the Ukrainian security forces withdrew from the scene allowing the rightwing radicals
to block the exits and firebomb the building forcing many to jump from open windows to the pavement
below where they died on impact. The few who survived the fall were savagely beaten with clubs
and chains by the nearly 300 extremist thugs who had gathered on the street.
Street fighting thugs don't typically waste their time barricading exits unless it is part of
a plan, a plan to create a big-enough incident to change the narrative of what is going on in
the country. None of the victims of the tragedy were armed.
This isn't the first time the US has tried to pull something like this off. In 2006, the Bush
administration used a similar tactic in Iraq. That's when Samarra's Golden Dome Mosque was blown
up in an effort to change the public's perception of the conflict from an armed struggle against
foreign occupation into a civil war.
So who authorized the attack on Odessa's Trade Unions House? Could it be that the Ukrainian Security
Services were supervised by some external mercenaries just like the Oluja blitzkrieg in Croatia
back in 1995 when the Croatian National Guard was then supervised and managed by MPRI, an US SMP
based in Virginia? Because in Kiev, dozens of specialists from the US CIA and FBI were advising
the Ukrainian government helping Kiev end the rebellion in the east of Ukraine and set up a functioning
security structure. (report, AFP).
Whatever and if ever an inquiry succeeds, fact is that the government in Kiev bears direct responsibility,
and is complicit in these criminal activities for they allowed extremists and radicals to burn
unarmed people alive.
warehouse_guy 1 May 2015 04:30
Tatyana Gerasimova also says the case is getting killed off in court, put that on your headline.
alpykog 1 May 2015 04:30
Nothing unusual about police, army and terrorists working together. I remember the British
army in Belfast actually running joint patrols in broad daylight with Loyalist terrorists through
Catholic areas and that was the tip of the iceberg. Try not to feel "holier than thou" when
you read this stuff.
ID075732 1 May 2015 04:23
Rumours swirl of a higher death toll, the use of poisonous gas and the body of a pregnant
woman garrotted by pro-Ukraine fanatics.
Clearly the author has not watched the footage filmed inside the building after the massacre
- this was no "swirling rumour". Clearly the footage wasn't faked either. It showed may murdered
victims with burns to their heads and arms with bodies and clothes unscorched, not caused by the
actual fire.
Also those that have studied the many videos available of the unfolding events saw a much more
an orchestrated attack on the Trade Union building with fires breaking out in rooms further away
from the seat of the original fire. Also two masked figures on the roof before the fire started
in the building.
Reports that the exits were blocked and a number of masked pro-Ukrainians were inside the building
not just on the roof, don't figure in this report.
ploughmanlunch 1 May 2015 03:41
'While many pro-Ukraine activists helped the rescue effort, others punched, kicked and beat
those who fled the burning building. "There was blood and water all over the courtyard," said
Elena, who escaped via a fireman's ladder. "They were shouting 'on your knees, on your knees'."
This sums up, in my opinion, the whole sordid mess that is present Ukraine.
The majority of ordinary Ukrainians living under the authority of Kiev will broadly agree with
their Government, but are civilised and are probably horrified by the violence perpetrated by
both sides in the war.
Unfortunately, however, there is a significant minority of extremist Ukrainian Nationalists
that readily resort to violence and intimidation and revile Russian speaking 'separatists' in
the Donbas ( and elsewhere ).
Even more unfortunately, the fanatical far right have a disproportionate influence in the Kiev
Parliament and even the Government; a fact conveniently overlooked by the incredibly indulgent
Western powers. The present Kiev regime is blatantly anti-democratic and lacks any humanitarian
concern for the desperate plight of citizens still living in Donbas, ( unpaid pensions, economic
and humanitarian blockade ).
This crisis still has a long way to go, and I believe has not yet reached it's nadir. A brighter
future for all the people of Ukraine will require unbiased and honest involvement of the great
powers, East and West.
Geo kosmopolitenko 1 May 2015 03:22
Some spin doctors in Washington would sarcastically smile if they ever read this sadly tragic
article.
Kiselev 1 May 2015 03:20
Symbol of separated Ukrainian society...
Whatever western Ukrainians told us.
Почти год назад 2 мая 2014-го года в Одессе произошла страшная трагедия: в ходе пожара,
спровоцированного сторонниками украинских властей, в одесском Доме Профсоюзов погибло 46 гражданских
лиц. Часть из них сгорело заживо, часть умерло от отравления угарным газом, ещё часть – разбилась
насмерть, падая из окон охваченного огнём здания. Милиция в Одессе во время столкновений в
центре города и пожара в Доме профсоюзов бездействовала, а по некоторым данным - даже получила
приказ отвести подразделения c места событий и не вмешиваться в происходящее. До сих пор обстоятельства
той страшной трагедии не расследованы, а виновные в поджоге и массовом убийстве не понесли никакого
наказания.
Погибшие в одесском Доме Профсоюзов оказались забыты в собственной стране, от их гибели просто
отмахнулись, даже не наказав их убийств, ведь они были на нашей, русской стороне. И именно поэтому
день годовщины этой трагедии – день траура для нас. Мы считаем, что память их не должна забываться
и 2-го мая мы собираемся почтить их память.
2-го мая НДП проведёт всероссийскую акцию памяти в честь погибших в одесском Доме Профсоюзов.
В разных регионах страны мы проведём мероприятия посвящённые этой траурной дате – где-то в формате
пикетов, где-то в формате митингов или возложений цветов. Следите за новостями на наших ресурсах.
Так же мы напоминаем, что Национально-Демократическая Партия продолжает сбор гуманитарной помощи
для жителей Новороссии. Нами открыты пункты сбора гуманитарной помощи Новороссии во всех крупных
городах:
Such an elaborate dance around facts. From comments: "It is so depressing when there is far more
information in the comments section than in the article itself. It seems the new editor is keen to continue
the traditions of her predecessor." This is one event about which there is quite a lot of information
to see how Guardian presstitutes try to bent the truth. See
Odessa Massacre of May 2, 2014
Notable quotes:
"... In a way, you are right, it was the US (via Vicky "f the EU" Nuland and mad John McCain) that pushed Ukraine over the cliff. As usual, the EU "leaders" (Merkel, etc) acted as US lackeys. However, equal blame goes to stupid and thieving Ukrainian elites, under whose "leadership" the country was on the edge of that cliff to begin with. ..."
"... Western media are not simply mirror images of the fascist governments they support. Acting the way they do, these media prepare the public for a future war. ..."
"... There are lies, there are blatant lies, and then there are reports of Western media. Sad, but true. ..."
"... Kiev's solution has always been a military one and still is. ..."
"... Recently Poroshenko who had the temerity to visit Odessa on the anniversary of the city' liberation from occupation was met with shouts "Fascism will not pass". ..."
"... I remember the British army in Belfast actually running joint patrols in broad daylight with Loyalist terrorists through Catholic areas and that was the tip of the iceberg. ..."
The emergency calls became increasingly desperate. "When are you coming? It's already burning
and there are people inside," a woman told the fire brigade dispatcher. Minutes later, callers started
describing how people were jumping from the upper floors. "Have you lost your minds?" one man asked,
his voice breaking. "There are women and children in the building!" another man yelled.
In one of
the most deadly episodes in Ukraine's turbulent 2014 power transition, 48 people were killed and
hundreds injured on 2 May last year in the Black Sea port of Odessa.
Street battles culminated in a fatal fire at Soviet-era building where hundreds of pro-Russia
activists were barricaded in.
VengefulRevenant -> AlfredHerring 1 May 2015 17:24
The victims are the ones who were raped, shot or burned to death in the massacre.
The perpetrators are those protected by the NATO-backed regime which has failed to investigate
the massacre.
The apologists are the NATO-aligned media who blame the victims or assign blame equally to
the killers and the dead along the lines of, 'There was heroism and cruelty on both sides.'
normankirk -> Metronome151 1 May 2015 16:52
Well isn't it wonderful to hear a diversity of views expressed on Russian TV. When all we hear
is how all media is controlled by the Kremlin
Kaiama Danram 1 May 2015 16:48
So the dead Ukrainian children and women are Kremlin goons too?
How simple your life must be to allow you to make such simplistic conclusions.
vr13vr 1 May 2015 16:46
Some nice whitewashing. Now it's fault of the victims and the heroism of the perpetrators,
there hasn't been and there will be no investigation and the word massacre is no longer used.
For those of you who still argue it was not a massacre but some mysterious suicide by 48 people
who set themselves afire, here is footage again.
Take a look at some of the pretty revealing moments:
23 min mark - Ukrainians are entering the building, there was no resistance.
24:20. A group of Ukrainians go upstairs, there is no fire yet.
26:20 Some are coming returning. The stairs are being set on fire.
27:50 A Ukrainian is firing gun at those trying to jump from the building.
While in the building, Ukrainians were slaughtering people. And it wasn't a fight. Half of
the victims were middle-aged. At least 10 of them - women.
31min - 33min - the victims who got out have their faces and hands disfigured while the rest
of their bodies don't have the same injuries. That's what happens if someone splashes fuel over
someone's face and light it up. There are pictures of victims with only their heads and hands
burned.
33min - 35min - there were women among those trying to find safety in the building. Some of
them are middle-aged. They were not fighters, as the article would imply.
36min- 37min - Ukrainians were inside the building, setting it on fire and killing those whom
they could find, a young woman in this specific frame.
46min - a person was bludgeoned to death. The room doesn't have marks of fire but the blood
is splattered all over the room.
48min-50min - the same story, Ukrainians were slaughtering their victims.
1h:00min - Ukrainians are entering the building again, this time from the make shift scaffolding.
Any attempt to pretend there was a fight rather than a massacre is crazy. Any suggestion that
somehow people inside were setting themselves on fire is ludicrous in light of evidence that the
Ukis were inside the building. And the fact that Kiev doesn't even see it as murder makes me just
angry.
AbsolutelyFapulous -> PlatonKuzin 1 May 2015 16:43
Odessa as well as the most Ukraine is a Russian soil.
Donno why you are commenting here. You even don't seem to be able to read a map.
BorninUkraine -> RonBuckley 1 May 2015 16:25
In a way, you are right, it was the US (via Vicky "f the EU" Nuland and mad John McCain)
that pushed Ukraine over the cliff. As usual, the EU "leaders" (Merkel, etc) acted as US lackeys.
However, equal blame goes to stupid and thieving Ukrainian elites, under whose "leadership"
the country was on the edge of that cliff to begin with.
Current Ukrainian "leaders" keep stealing everything they can, including financial and material
aid from the West. What else is new?
MaoChengJi -> Goodthanx 1 May 2015 16:03
Yeah. I'm convinced that they should've sent paratroopers and take Kiev right the next day
after the coup d'etat; stop this whole unholy mess right then and there. That really would've
saved tens of thousands of lives - if not millions, seeing how this thing seems to escalate, leading
us to a nuclear war.
Putin is a pussy, Medvedev got it right in Georgia in 2008. Well, frankly Medvedev is a pussy
too. He should've taken Tbilisi, and put Saakashvili on trial.
To teach the bastards a lesson.
Instead, now we hear every day 'Russia will not fight Ukraine', 'Russia will not fight Ukraine',
and the murdering Nazi bastards get bolder and bolder. What's the point of having all that military
hardware if you're afraid to use it. They Yanks would've taken control of the place months ago,
look at Grenada.
RonBuckley -> BorninUkraine 1 May 2015 15:52
Well said, man. Yes, Ukrainian politics have always been divisive, stupid, thievery and corrupt.
That said they had neither brains nor money for a coup. So Ukraine should thank certain external
powers for the deep shit it is in now.
PlatonKuzin -> puttypants 1 May 2015 15:31
Odessa as well as the most Ukraine is a Russian soil. That's the point. And the state of Ukraine
is a temporary occupier of the Russian soil. So people living in Odessa don't have to go to Russian.
They are right at their home. This is the state of Ukraine that has stayed on our Russian land
for 23 years now. It's time for the quasi-state of Ukraine to leave.
BorninUkraine -> puttypants 1 May 2015 15:16
I was born in Lvov in Western Ukraine, I grew up in Lugansk in the East, I have friends and
relatives all over, and I know exactly what is going on in Ukraine.
Ukraine in 1991 was extremely heterogenous. In the area West of Carpatian mountains people
speak Hungarian, Romanian, and Rusine (a form of old Russian, spoken in Kievan Rus).
Galichina and Volynia in the West speak several dialects of Ukrainian. Many in Central Ukraine
speak what is considered literary Ukrainian. In the South and East (historic Novorossia) and in
Kharkov region (historic Slobozhanschina) the majority speaks "surgik", a mix of pidgin-Ukrainian
and pidgin-Russian. Finally, in Crimea people speak Russian, Tatar, and very few speak Ukrainian.
Crimea voted AGAINST Ukraine in 1991 referendum and got a chance to run away in 2014, when Ukraine
committed suicide.
If the leaders of Ukraine had any brains and loved their country, they would have followed
the example of Switzerland and Singapore, having many official languages. However, all Ukrainian
rulers from day one were thieves and idiots. They made Ukrainian the only official language and
pushed it everywhere, so that while you could get school education in several languages, all colleges
operated only in Ukrainian, putting people who spoke other languages at a disadvantage.
That idiotic policy started this whole mess, which with a bit of US money, prodding, and now
arms became a civil war. Not to mention that Galichina is the place that fought against Russia
in WWI (as part of Austro-Hungarian empire, siding with Kaiser) and WWII (siding with Hitler).
They supplied the troops that under Hitler's command murdered thousands of civilians in Ukraine,
Poland, Belarus, and Slovakia. Bandera, Shuhevich, and veterans of Waffen SS division Galichina,
who are considered heroes by current puppets in Kiev, voluntarily served Hitler.
80% of Ukrainian population hates these Bandera worshippers, so when external forces push them
to power, it creates trouble. Personally I hate them for giving a bad name to everything Ukrainian.
BorninUkraine -> AbsolutelyFapulous 1 May 2015 15:10
Russia failed to send its troops to Donbass, and Ukrainian army killed thousands of civilians
there, including women, children, elderly, and disabled veterans.
Or is saying things explicitly beyond your pay grade?
RonBuckley -> AbsolutelyFapulous 1 May 2015 15:06
To Odessa Kiev sent a few hundred pro-Nazi thugs - 42 died.
To Donetsk and Luhansk Kiev sent a few thousand pro-Nazi thugs plus the entire Ukrainian army
- 6000 died.
Get it now?
Goodthanx -> Anette Mor 1 May 2015 15:04
For me it was the silence... You are right! Seeing what i was seeing, with no commentry to
convince me either way.. How could the worlds media be so silent?
Then with MH, it was the complete opposite!! Immediately and with no investigation, MSM could
not shut up about who they thought was responsible!!
Both fail the logic test miserably. But try explaining common sense to those that haven't any.
Goodthanx -> Chirographer 1 May 2015 14:48
Those protesters were Ukrainian Pro Federalists! Not one Russian amongst them!
Anette Mor -> Goodthanx 1 May 2015 14:46
Good for you. It is impossible to hide truth with current state of technology. Only not showning.
Any life reporting give the footage adding facts one by one and crwating a true picture eventually.
Even this rather bias article contributes to true story because the lie in it sticks out of logic
for anybody we is able to think for themselves.
PlatonKuzin -> ID5868758 1 May 2015 14:42
Western media are not simply mirror images of the fascist governments they support. Acting
the way they do, these media prepare the public for a future war.
Anette Mor -> vr13vr 1 May 2015 14:41
It is poinless to try to install fear in these people. Need to look at the history of people's
wars in Russia. Since 17 century they were able to resist occupation and unwanted rulers by people
war. There wpuld not be a win against Napoleon and Hitler without people rising and forming resistance.
Same in Odessa now. Just a matter of time.
BunglyPete -> Chirographer 1 May 2015 14:35
The explanation is very simple. Right Sector had free reign to terrorise pro Russians, so he
took action. Kiev choose not to punish Right Sector both then and now. He said this in the same
interview you constantly reference.
Now can you explain why you think it is acceptable for Right Sector to terrorise the Donbass?
If Strelkov wasnt allowed to defend them, who was?
Anette Mor -> Jeff1000 1 May 2015 14:34
Not sure why you call them pro-Russians. Odessa is multi-national city. These who were massacred
are simply local people who disagreed with the violent coup which put to power by the west. Does
it make them "pro-russian" and justify thier killing? Surely these who want own country to be
coverned by own elected officials could not be pro- another country. If they trust Russian government
care for them more then thier own coup, that only says how bad the coup rule is.
Goodthanx -> Chirographer 1 May 2015 14:24
Forget about the Russian government. The idea is justice for the victims and punishment for
the perpetrators. Is it the ambition of the UN to be percieved as bias as so called Russuan investigators
would be?
Kaiama -> truk10 1 May 2015 14:22
FFS there are enough links and analysis to demonstrate that pro-Kiev forces inflicted a massacre
of civilians here. I don't see any pro-Ukraine links to additional information but an overwhelming
deluge of links supporting the unvoiced version of events.
ID5868758 1 May 2015 14:18
Our western media have really become mirror images of the fascist governments they support.
By publishing such whitewashing attempts as this, they only enable more such behavior in the future,
behavior that leads to the deaths of more innocents, more civilians whose only desire is to live
in freedom and peace.
Kaiama 1 May 2015 14:13
It is so depressing when there is far more information in the comments section than in the
article itself. It seems the new editor is keen to continue the traditions of her predecessor.
Goodthanx -> Chirographer 1 May 2015 14:09
What kind of a teenage girl carries in their backpack petrol, empty bottles, rags and whatever
else is required to make Molotov cocktails? What a coincidence... there is a group of them!!
As for Right Sector? Chartered buses transported Right Sector militia which arrived early in the
day. These were the people communicating with police from the start.
MaoChengJi -> MaoChengJi 1 May 2015 13:51
Speaking of the media... I've been reading this Odessa news website: http://timer-odessa.net/
, and it has been relatively informative (as much as Ukro-sites can be, these days). And today
suddenly it's gone dark: "there is no Web site at this address".
Does anyone know if it's gone for good? I really hope those who were running it are safe...
Jean-François Guilbo -> truk10 1 May 2015 13:51
So you didn't watch the video link in my comment did you?
If you just take this article for granted to know on which side the Odessa police was, you won't
learn much on what happened...
Seems like the officier on the picture would have been recognised as a colonel from Odessa police,
watch this link:
And from these two links, these armed guys not afraid to shoot from the crowd, could have been
agents provocateur...
BorninUkraine -> IrishFred 1 May 2015 13:47
Are you saying that Bandera, Shuhevich, and veterans of Waffen SS division Galichina never
existed? If so, please state it explicitly.
Are you saying all of the above did not serve Hitler voluntarily? If so, please state it explicitly.
Are you saying all of the above are not guilty of mass murder and other crimes against humanity?
If so, please state it explicitly.
Are you saying that people who are murdering their opponents, politicians and journalists,
are not Nazis? If so, please state it explicitly.
As to Crimea, if you knew any history, you'd know that it was illegally annexed by Ukraine
in 1991. Here is history 101, not necessarily for you, but for those who actually want to know
the truth.
Russia deployed its troops in Crimea, and nobody was killed there. Russia failed to send its
troops to Donbass, and Ukrainian army killed thousands of civilians there, including women, children,
elderly, and disabled veterans.
As many Ukrainians joke now, "Crimeans are traitors: they ran away without us".
Your next argument?
Jeff1000 -> Chirographer 1 May 2015 13:45
Don't display callous and willful ignorance and call it even-handedness. The Guardian's "credible"
account offers no sources, agrees with none of the available pictorial or video evidence and is
rampant apologism.
I posted videos - including raw CCTV footage of the starting of the fire, further up the page.
BunglyPete -> coffeegirl 1 May 2015 13:40
I saw that guy's post it was fantastic, very well sourced and thorough. The comments on here
were a different kettle of fish entirely back then.
Jeff1000 1 May 2015 13:39
The attempt to re-package this event as some awful conglomeration of circumstances spurred
on by the cruelty of fate is sickening. We reduce the death of at least 50 people down so that
calling it a "massacre" becomes needlessly emotive. We casually refer to the pro-Ukrainians as
"football fans" to make it seem innocent - when Ukrainian football fans known as "Ultras" are
famours for 2 things: Being neo-Nazis, and being violent thugs.
Look at this video especially: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAEcceedzCU
It's really very simple - candid videos at the time made it clear.
1. Pro-Russian groups were attacked by Ukrainian "ultras". They sought shelter in the Trade
Union building.
2. The building was set on fire when the Ultras threw molotovs through the windows. The doors
were barred.
3. People attempting to climb out of the windows were shot at, if they jumped they were beaten
as they lay on the ground.
4. Ukrainian nationalists deliberately blockaded the streets to inhibit the progress of ambulances
and fire engines.
Only a week after The Odessa Massacre an american CiFer, ex-marine, has gathered links, sieved
through hours and hours of video - he, practically, has done what the journos were supposed to
do, - to prove the Guardian, BBC and the rest were trying hard to whitewash the atrocity. Check
his posts: Additional proof that the BBC and the mainstream Western press lied when they said
both sides threw the molotov's.
I looked for 5 hours searching for one video that showed anyone in the building throwing a
molotov cocktail as the BBC first reported and the rest of the MSM went along with. I could not
find a single one. They claimed a person named Sergei (what are the odds of that) told them a
person threw the molotov inside the building and didn't realize the window was closed. This is
absolutely ludicrous and an example of the pathetic reporting that passes for "news" these days.
I did find the video of the third floor fire starting. It is at the following link and runs
consecutively. You'll notice at exactly the 2 minute mark the camera zooms in on the window where
the fire begins. You'll also notice that at the 2:02 mark you see an additional molotov cocktail
just miss the window. This is strong evidence that the window was being targeted by individuals
on the ground. Prior to this fire starting there is no other fire on the third floor, therefore
this is most likely the cause of the third floor fire and lends credence to the fact that the
violent youth below burned those people alive.
And not just "Russian state-owned media" - also most of the Russian privately owned media,
and most of the world media (and even some of the western media).
I believe I saw a chinadaily calling it Kristallnacht.
Jeff1000 1 May 2015 13:16
Russian state-owned media characterised the day's events as a "massacre" planned by "fascists"
in Kiev, a narrative that has gained widespread traction.
Mostly because it's a pretty fitting description of what happened.
Its not hard truk. Those red armbands that the so called pro Russian provocatores wore? Are
actually the same red armbands Right sector militia was wearing during the most violent Maidan
clashes. You can identify some of the same protagonists wearing the same armband in both Odesaa
and Maidan!
vr13vr -> truk10 1 May 2015 13:07
Idiot. Nobody is laughing. Especially when 50 people died. Look at this video and see how Ukrainians
entered the supposedly "heavily defended" building. You will see them operating inside, you will
see them existing the building after it started burning from inside.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxcB0PI4ZLg
Look at 23 min mark - they are entering the building with no resistance.
24:20. A group of Ukrainians go upstairs, there is no fire yet.
26:20 Some are coming returning. The stairs are being set on fire.
27:50 A Ukrainian is firing gun at those trying to jump from the building.
Yes, Ukrainians overrun the building, including the roof. The photographs suggest that people
in the building where set afire while still alive.
You must be an idiot to say someone is laughing at this.
castorsia -> truk10 1 May 2015 13:02
No. They burned them. Check the photographic evidence.
PlatonKuzin -> vr13vr 1 May 2015 12:58
Armored vehicles and special riot forces were brought today in Odessa to prevent possible unrest
there.
WHYNOPASSWORD12 -> Havingalavrov 1 May 2015 12:56
Plenty of witnesses point out that these were pro-ukraine provacateurs sent up to stir up trouble.
They are wearing the same red armbands worn by a group who started the skirmishes earlier in the
town centre. They were part of the group bussed-in under the guise of football supporters.
MaoChengJi -> truk10 1 May 2015 12:55
Hi turk10,
I understand your confusion. Luckily, Mr. Christof Lehmann investigated it all for you. Seek and
ye shall find. Use google.
vr13vr 1 May 2015 12:50
Sure, Kiev views burning alive almost 50 people as a "victory." They even allowed to install
fear in the city. Since then the city is totally subdued, people would be afraid to even discuss
the events or think of any peaceful opposition as they are aware of the potential response from
Kiev's supporters.
Nice job Guardian trying to whitewash the events and justify the cold blooded murder by some
street fights elsewhere in the city, events that were taking place all over the country those
days.
Jeremn -> oleteo 1 May 2015 12:40
No greater cynics than western politicians, who certainly don't mourn this heavenly half-hundred,
or come to lay flowers at the scene of their death.
No greater cynic than the Czech envoy, Bartuska, who said:
"Groups of civilians - including men, women and children - seize government buildings. Within
two days they get arms and after that women and children disappear, leaving only the armed men.
If they [independence supporters] are quickly resisted, as it was done in Odessa where they were
simply burned to death, or Dnepropetrovsk, where they were simply killed and buried by the side
of the road, everything will be calm. If this is not done, then there will be war. That's all."
ID5868758 1 May 2015 12:18
Another despicable attempt to paint a false equivalency, to assign blame for this massacre,
for their own deaths, on those who perished. Take the Molotov cocktail throwing, for instance.
I watched the videos of those Molotov cocktails being made, pretty little pro-Ukrainian girls
sitting on the ground with their assembly line all set up, smiling as they made those instruments
of death and handed them out, now just where did those supplies come from, who thought to bring
bottles and rags and fuel to an event if it was innocent in nature?
And where would those innocent victims chased inside the building get Molotov cocktails to
throw from inside the building, when they were interested only in escaping the smoke and flames,
saving their own lives? The narrative doesn't match the evidence, but neither does it pass the
smell test, pretty SOP for western media reporting on Ukraine.
StillHaveLinkYouHate -> MaoChengJi 1 May 2015 11:56
The difference is that Nazis want to murder people for the accident of how they were born.
Extreme natinalists will want to murder anybody who does not behave in the perverted way they
feel a patriot should.
That is the difference. Praviy sektor are nazis, incidentally.
It makes the point already made below in this comment thread:
I invite people to imagine how the British media would have reported this massacre if roles
had been reversed and if it had been Maidan supporters who were burnt alive in the Trade Union
building with an anti Maidan crowd filmed throwing Molotov cocktails into the building whilst
baying for blood outside.
Indeed.
GreatCthulhu -> Metronome151 1 May 2015 11:45
Many of them not locals.
I thought the article was pretty clear that everyone on both sides were local. I speak, of
course s an Irish man who doesn't regard hating Russians/ people who identify with Russia who
aren't Russians but live nearby as a default position before beginning any debate.
There are a small minority of Irish people, living in the Republic (I am not referring to the
northern Unionist Community here), who identify with Britain often to the point that they express
regret that Ireland ever left the UK. I don't agree with them, but I would not set them on fire
in a building. For that matter, it is ARGUABLE (I am not saying whether that argument is right
or wrong- just that you could put forward the thesis) that the N.I state-let is something of an
Irish Donbass. No justification for Ireland shelling the crap out of it though... at all... that
sort of stuff is kind of regarded as savagery here these days.
MaoChengJi -> truk10 1 May 2015 11:43
Hi turk10,
what's wrong with calling them 'nazis'? The guardian piece identifies them as "extreme nationalists",
and isn't it the same thing as 'neo-nazis' or 'nazis'?
Is there some nuance I'm missing here? What would you call them?
BorninUkraine -> truk10 1 May 2015 11:38
So you object to calling a spade a spade? Typical pro-US position in Ukrainian crisis. What
do you call the insignia of, for example, Azov battalion (see here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion ). If that's not Nazi insignia, I don't know what
is.
I am simply saying that those who organized Odessa massacre, then Mariupol massacre, then fueled
the war in Donbass, including Poroshenko, Turchinov, Yats, etc, are Nazis.
The simple reason for that conclusion is, as the saying goes, "if it looks like a duck, if
it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, it is a duck". If you prefer Christian version
of the same thing, see Mathew 7:16 "you will know them by their fruits".
To sum it up, if someone behaves like a Nazi, s/he is a Nazi. Is this clear enough?
EugeneGur 1 May 2015 11:28
A pro-Russia activist aims a pistol at supporters of the Kiev government during clashes
in the streets of Odessa, 2 May 2014.
How do we know that the guy is pro-Russian? Does the picture show what he is aiming at? Does
he have a sign on his forehead burned in saying "I am pro-Russian and I am going to shoot that
pro-Ukrainian bastard"? No, he does not. We are expected to assume that because the caption says
so - but captions to pictures aren't evidence. Anybody can put any caption to any picture, and
it's been done many a time.
The head of the local pro-Ukraine Maidan self-defence group, Dmitry Gumenyuk, recalled the
effect of the homemade grenades. . . they threw a grenade and it exploded under his bullet-proof
vest and four nails entered his lungs," he said.
Such peaceful people - going for a nice in the park walk in bullet-proof vests. They were going
to destroy that camp and not on the agreement with the activists in that camp, as Guardian states
(complete BS) but violently, which they did. Even if they were attacked, what did women in the
camp have to do with it?
Come on, people, even in the face of such a tragedy, is it so absolutely necessary to hush up
the truth all the time?
BorninUkraine -> caliento 1 May 2015 11:24
There is a Ukrainian joke. Russians ask:
- If you believe that Russia annexed Crimea, why don't you fight for it?
- We aren't that stupid, there are Russian troops there.
- But you say there are Russian troops in Donbass?
- That's what we say, but in Crimea there really are Russian troops.
castorsia 1 May 2015 11:21
The Guardian continues to misrepresent the Odesa massacre by reporting claims by the official
Ukrainian investigation and the Odesa governor created May 2 group that the deadly fire started
when both sided were throwing Molotov cocktails. The videos and other evidence showing that the
fire started after the Molotov cocktails and tires were thrown by the attackers are deliberately
omitted.
Open question to you all: What would be in the headlines if scores of "Pro-Ukrainian activists
" were being burned, hacked, mauled, shot and raperd to death by Donetsk rebels or their supporters?
BorninUkraine 1 May 2015 11:20
There are lies, there are blatant lies, and then there are reports of Western media. Sad,
but true.
In this article Howard Amos pretends that he believes that both sides were to blame for the
mass murder of anti-fascists by pro-Maidan thugs in Odessa on May 2, 2014. That's like saying
that both the Nazis and the inmates of concentration camps were equally guilty.
This lie is so outrageous, and so far from reality, that it does not even deserve an argument.
The readers who want to know the truth can do Google search using "Odessa massacre 2014" and read
for themselves.
The lie that the Guardian repeats after Kyiv "government" looks even less plausible now, as
Odessa massacre was followed by the massacre of civilians by Nazi thugs in Mariupol a few days
later (change Odessa to Mariupol in your Google search), and the murder of thousands of civilians
in Donbass, including women, children, elderly, and disabled veterans, by the Ukrainian army and
Nazi battalions.
I grew up in the USSR, but I have never read a lie so obvious and outrageous in the Soviet
media. Congratulations on a new low!
coffeegirl aussiereader4 1 May 2015 11:11
Sounds like you know little about what happened in Odessa.
The best compilation of any available material was done on May 8, 2014 by our fellow CiFer
US ex-marine griffin alabama:
You like to cite Strelkov, don't you, when it suits your purpose? If he is such an authority
for you, why don't you cite everything he says? Among other things, he said that Maidan was not
a popular uprising but a pure decoration for the coup organized by the right wing groups and funded
by oligarchs together with the foreign agents? You can watch this here
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2015/02/must-watch-strelkov-vs-starikov-debate.html
greatwhitehunter caliento 1 May 2015 11:08
you would no if you followed events the idea of peace keepers was supported by Russia, the
separatists and a good many other countries right from the start of the conflict . It was not
however supported by the kiev government or the US. Peace keepers were offered to Ukraine right
up until 4 days before the Minsk agreement.
Kiev's solution has always been a military one and still is. There belated cries for
peace keepers only came after getting an a*& kicking.
kiev signed the minsk agreement which requires them to deal with the issues peace keepers would
be a way out for them. Usa by their actions does not support the Minsk agreement.
Poroshenko,s idea of peace keepers was a few kiev friendly states to send weapons and troups
to bolster their ranks.
An offer was made via the UN security council for a peace keeping force that included china
and new zealand and poroshenko stated that ukraine didn't needed china and new Zealand's help,
as it turned out they did.
EugeneGur 1 May 2015 10:54
Oh Guardian, Guardian. Both are to blame, heroism on both sides - in short, they burned themselves.
We've heard that before. But then the article goes on and tells you that the movement they for
some reason call "pro-Russian", although its not pro-Russia as much as it's anti-fascist, is essentially
eliminated, with all leaders in jail or in exile. In contrast,
None of the pro-Ukraine activists have been put on trial
Kind of tells you what actually happened, doesn't it?
Activists from both sides admit that the port city remains divided into two approximately
matched camps
No, they aren't matched. The Odessa residents are mostly anti-Maidan. The city is flooded with
newcomers from the western Ukraine, and they the main supporters of Kiev. Otherwise, why would
Kiev deploy half of the army to Odessa before the May holidays?
Recently Poroshenko who had the temerity to visit Odessa on the anniversary of the city'
liberation from occupation was met with shouts "Fascism will not pass".
So much for "matched camps". Of course, if you put everybody of the opposing view in jail of
kill them, you can sort of achieve a "match".
Elena Hodgson 1 May 2015 10:50
This was a massacre. Period.
Hanwell123 1 May 2015 10:48
Ukraine is a gangster state where if activists aren't arrested then they are shot; 6 prominent
figures shot this year alone. No arrests. It's supported to the hilt by the EU who shell out enormous
sums to keep it from bankruptcy.
nnedjo 1 May 2015 08:42
This is the news from the Ukraine crisis Media Center:
Odesa, April 27, 2015 – Vitaly Kozhukhar, coordinator of the Self-Defense of Odesa, Varvara
Chernoivanenko, a spokesman for the Right Sector of Odesa held a briefing on the topic: "May
2 this year in Odesa. How a single headquarters of the patriotic forces preparing to hold a
day of mourning for those killed in the city"...
Varvara Chernoivanenko said that for all patriots of Ukraine is important that May 2 was peaceful
day. Patriotic forces create patrols that will keep order in the area of Cathedral Square,
which will host a memorial meeting for all those, who died on 2 May. They will make every effort
to ensure peace and order. Already, the city has operational headquarters of the patriotic
forces. Their representatives will stop all provocations. At the same time, according to Varvara
Chernoivanenko, on their part will not be any aggression.
Thus, the "patriotic forces", which I suppose are responsible for burning people alive in the
building of Trade Unions in Odessa, will now protect those who survived and who should hold the
memorial service for their relatives and friends, victims of Odessa massacre. The only question
is, from whom they should protect them?
I mean, this lady from the Right Sector boasts that they organized patrols of its members all
over the city. Well, you can bet that in these patrols will be at least some, if not all of those
who threw Molotov cocktails at the building of trade unions, and beaten with clubs or even shot
at those who tried to escape from the fire. Because, as this article shows, none of them has even
been charged, let alone be convicted of that crime.
So, can we then conclude that the executioners of the victims of the Odessa massacre will now
provide protection to those who mourn the victims, which is a paradox of its kind.
And how these patrols of "patriotic forces" operating in reality, you can watch in this video,
which was filmed during the visit of Poroshenko in Odessa, on the day of the celebration of liberation
of the city in WWII, 10 April. At the beginning of the film, the guys from "Patriotic patrol"
argue with a group of anti-fascists, demanding that they reject one of their flag. And then at
one point (0:31 of the video), one of these guys from patrol says:
"Didn't burn enough of you, eh?"
MaoChengJi 1 May 2015 07:45
Ah, of course: both sides are to blame, because before the massacre an extreme nationalist
militant died, under circumstanced unknown (shot in self-defense, perhaps? who knows).
Nice.
a pro-Ukraine member of the extreme nationalist organisation
Even nicer: 'pro-Ukraine extreme nationalist'. Pro-Ukraine? Which kind of Ukraine?
I find that one of the most misleading elements in these west-interpreted stories is "pro-Russian"
and "pro-Ukrainian" labels.
Truth? One doesn't look for truth in the Graun - the house journal of European Post-Democracy.
The truth will occasionally slip out of one of the Post-Democrats - the Czech diplomat Vaclav
Bartuska, for example:
"Groups of civilians - including men, women and children - seize government buildings. Within
two days they get arms and after that women and children disappear, leaving only the armed men.
If they are quickly resisted, as it was done in Odessa where they were simply burned to death,
or Dnepropetrovsk, where they were simply killed and buried by the side of the road, everything
will be calm. If this is not done, then there will be war. That's all."
The journos of the Graun who want to carry on attending their dinner parties and pretend to
be liberal and decent folk have better sense than to state matters truthfully.
6i9vern 1 May 2015 07:43
Truth? One doesn't look for truth in the Graun - the house journal of European Post-Democracy.
The truth will occasionally slip out of one of the Post-Democrats - the Czech diplomat Vaclav
Bartuska, for example:
"Groups of civilians - including men, women and children - seize government buildings. Within
two days they get arms and after that women and children disappear, leaving only the armed
men. If they are quickly resisted, as it was done in Odessa where they were simply burned to
death, or Dnepropetrovsk, where they were simply killed and buried by the side of the road,
everything will be calm. If this is not done, then there will be war. That's all."
The journos of the Graun who want to carry on attending their dinner parties and pretend to
be liberal and decent folk have better sense than to state matters truthfully.
Vladimir Makarenko Celtiberico 1 May 2015 06:20
They took it from Odessa being a symbol of Black Sea and a while ago a Russian poet said: Chernoe
More - Vor na Vore.
Black Sea - a thief by thief.
normankirk 1 May 2015 06:14
This is a shameless attempt to whitewash a massacre.There is plenty of evidence on you tube
Every one has cell phones which can record events as they unfold. This is why the American police
can no longer get away with murder. The European parliament held a hearing in Brussels to hear
the Odessa survivors. there was a concerted effort from Maidan activists from Kiev to shut down
the survivors testimony. A Europarliament deputy from the Czech republic Miroslav said "This is
simply shocking. this is an evidence of fascism not being disappeared from European countries.He
blamed Parubiy, co founder of far right Svoboda party and Kolomoisky, paymaster of neo nazi militia
for the massacre at Odessa. All this is recorded. Ignorance can no longer be a defence
ID075732 1 May 2015 05:53
The US Holocaust Memorial Museum quotes the following, famous text by Pastor Martin Niemoller
about the cowardice of intellectuals following the Nazis':
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me-and there was no one left to speak for me.
It's time for the MSM to realise that the same is happening Ukraine - for which the Odessa
massacre is a warning. It's time they stopped playing intellectual games to prop up what is a
fascist regime in Kiev.
BunglyPete 1 May 2015 05:48
Just in case those involved in the production of this article do read or hear of these comments..
Do you not realise we have Google and Youtube now? You can verify anything within a few keystrokes.
You do not need to rely on the evil Russian media, you can watch the eyewitness videos yourself.
I mean this seriously, if you are going to attempt to prove something then at least realise
that you will need to go to more lengths to do so. In the context of the greater 'propaganda war',
articles like this are nonsensical, as you merely serve to discredit yourself, and encourage people
to move to alternative media sources.
If you want to discredit the Russian narrative then discredit it, don't write things that discredit
your own narrative.
You don't need to bill me for this advice it comes for free.
SHappens 1 May 2015 04:30
Many allege that investigators are dragging their feet for political reasons, possibly to
cover up high-level complicity.
At the beginning of the unrest, the most virulent reaction came from supporters of Ukrainian
football clubs. But they were soon joined by a well-organized gang of self-defense that came in
a column of about 100 people dressed in military fatigues and relatively well equipped.
Members of the Ukrainian security forces withdrew from the scene allowing the rightwing radicals
to block the exits and firebomb the building forcing many to jump from open windows to the pavement
below where they died on impact. The few who survived the fall were savagely beaten with clubs
and chains by the nearly 300 extremist thugs who had gathered on the street.
Street fighting thugs don't typically waste their time barricading exits unless it is part
of a plan, a plan to create a big-enough incident to change the narrative of what is going on
in the country. None of the victims of the tragedy were armed.
This isn't the first time the US has tried to pull something like this off. In 2006, the Bush
administration used a similar tactic in Iraq. That's when Samarra's Golden Dome Mosque was blown
up in an effort to change the public's perception of the conflict from an armed struggle against
foreign occupation into a civil war.
So who authorized the attack on Odessa's Trade Unions House? Could it be that the Ukrainian
Security Services were supervised by some external mercenaries just like the Oluja blitzkrieg
in Croatia back in 1995 when the Croatian National Guard was then supervised and managed by MPRI,
an US SMP based in Virginia? Because in Kiev, dozens of specialists from the US CIA and FBI were
advising the Ukrainian government helping Kiev end the rebellion in the east of Ukraine and set
up a functioning security structure. (report, AFP).
Whatever and if ever an inquiry succeeds, fact is that the government in Kiev bears direct
responsibility, and is complicit in these criminal activities for they allowed extremists and
radicals to burn unarmed people alive.
warehouse_guy 1 May 2015 04:30
Tatyana Gerasimova also says the case is getting killed off in court, put that on your headline.
alpykog 1 May 2015 04:30
Nothing unusual about police, army and terrorists working together. I remember the British
army in Belfast actually running joint patrols in broad daylight with Loyalist terrorists through
Catholic areas and that was the tip of the iceberg. Try not to feel "holier than thou" when
you read this stuff.
ID075732 1 May 2015 04:23
Rumours swirl of a higher death toll, the use of poisonous gas and the body of a pregnant
woman garrotted by pro-Ukraine fanatics.
Clearly the author has not watched the footage filmed inside the building after the massacre
- this was no "swirling rumour". Clearly the footage wasn't faked either. It showed may murdered
victims with burns to their heads and arms with bodies and clothes unscorched, not caused by the
actual fire.
Also those that have studied the many videos available of the unfolding events saw a much more
an orchestrated attack on the Trade Union building with fires breaking out in rooms further away
from the seat of the original fire. Also two masked figures on the roof before the fire started
in the building.
Reports that the exits were blocked and a number of masked pro-Ukrainians were inside the building
not just on the roof, don't figure in this report.
ploughmanlunch 1 May 2015 03:41
'While many pro-Ukraine activists helped the rescue effort, others punched, kicked and beat
those who fled the burning building. "There was blood and water all over the courtyard," said
Elena, who escaped via a fireman's ladder. "They were shouting 'on your knees, on your knees'."
This sums up, in my opinion, the whole sordid mess that is present Ukraine.
The majority of ordinary Ukrainians living under the authority of Kiev will broadly agree with
their Government, but are civilised and are probably horrified by the violence perpetrated by
both sides in the war.
Unfortunately, however, there is a significant minority of extremist Ukrainian Nationalists
that readily resort to violence and intimidation and revile Russian speaking 'separatists' in
the Donbas ( and elsewhere ).
Even more unfortunately, the fanatical far right have a disproportionate influence in the Kiev
Parliament and even the Government; a fact conveniently overlooked by the incredibly indulgent
Western powers. The present Kiev regime is blatantly anti-democratic and lacks any humanitarian
concern for the desperate plight of citizens still living in Donbas, ( unpaid pensions, economic
and humanitarian blockade ).
This crisis still has a long way to go, and I believe has not yet reached it's nadir. A brighter
future for all the people of Ukraine will require unbiased and honest involvement of the great
powers, East and West.
Geo kosmopolitenko 1 May 2015 03:22
Some spin doctors in Washington would sarcastically smile if they ever read this sadly tragic
article.
Kiselev 1 May 2015 03:20
Symbol of separated Ukrainian society...
Whatever western Ukrainians told us.
The term "fascism" was initially defined as a local phenomenon - the regime of Italian dictator
Benito Mussolini. Later, the term changed its meaning and has become synonymous with Nazism (national
socialism) of the Third Reich. During 1950-1990-Western political science began to call fascism any
repressive regime and introduced the term "totalitarianism". This was done in order to combine Nazism
and communism, those two social phenomenon were ideologically polar and has had a different social
base despite using similar cruel methods.--[ I do not see much difference
in enslavement via Gulag with ensavement via decration of undermench -- NNB] In
one case, the the driving force was large industrialists and the middle class, in another - mostly
the urban poor and part of intelligencia, especially Jewish intelligencia.
The theory of binary totalitarianism has no serious scientific status. The term "fascism" has
now been returned to its historical meaning. It is a synonym of racism and all of its varieties -
crops-racism (the idea of cultural superiority), the social racism (the idea of social inequality
as the nature of this division of people into masters and slaves), etc.
Usually researchers try to distill the signs of fascism. For example, the Italian philosopher
Umberto Eco counted 14. But this approach only blurs the subject. The myth of superiority is a key
symptom. The rest is optional. Additional definitions are generated by the desire to "attach" to
fascism more than that.
For example, "nationalism". Normal people are proud of their nation and its culture, but do not
seek to destroy other peoples. This is the difference between nationalism and Nazism.
Or "traditionalism". If fascism were based in the traditions of the peoples, then some nations
would have dwelt for centuries in the fascist state of fever. Tradition is the enemy of the "voice
of blood", and there is no logic of exclusion of other people in traditions, while fascism lives
this logic . Not coincidentally, he is associated with the Protestant line in Christianity and its
idea of "chosen for salvation". Apart from the idea of exclusiveness, fascism is born with the spirit
of renewal, the destruction of the weak and "unnecessary" for the sake of winning power, novelty
and rationality. I repeat: tradition is the main enemy of fascism.
The idea of a strong state accompanies fascism, but does not define it. The Olympics of 1936,
"Olympia" by Leni Riefenstahl are symbols of a strong statehood. But Hitler's fascism was not
defined by the Olympics, but by the Nuremberg racial laws, summary execution of Slavs, Jews and Gypsies,
the plans of the colonization of the Eastern territories.
Yes, the war of 1941-1945 was the war between two authoritarian States, but only from the German
side it was an ethnic war. There were no intentions to carry out the genocide of "inferior Aryans"
in minds of Soviet soldiers or Joseph Stalin.
In Europe in recent decades, it was fashionable to talk about fascism as "a reaction to Bolshevism".
Indeed, the growing influence of leftist ideas in Europe in the first half of the twentieth century
caused activation of right-wing forces. But the roots of fascism are more ancient then Marxist and
Bolshevik. Fascism arose as a justification for colonial expansion. Hitler didn't invent anything
new. He just moved to the center of Europe bloody colonialist methods of the British, the French,
the Spaniards, and made the destruction of people fast and technically perfect: gas chambers, mass
graves. In a way fascism is application of colonial methods to the part of population of the country,
internal colonization so to speak.
The regime of the 1930-ies in Germany is the legitimate child of the European liberal capitalism.
But this conclusion is seriously injures European sense of identity. That's why this statement is a strict
taboo in the West --[not really, the hypothesis of intrinsic connection
of fascism with European (colonial) culture are pretty common --NNB]. But the truth
eventually comes out. Authors from European left now more frequently touch this connection and try
to develop this hypothesis.
Today we are witnessing a return to archaization of neoliberal society and slide of neoliberalism
into "new barbarism." Hence the reasoning of the European politicians about Ukraine as an "Outpost
of civilization". However, the assertion that Russia "does not meet democratic standards", those
days unlikely will deceive anyone. Euphemisms is a product of distortion of the language, not political
reality. This phrase marks Russia as a "defective" state, inhabited by "inferior" people - "watniks",
"colorado bugs". Neo-fascist model within the framework of liberalism is often built by shifting the boundaries
of tolerance. To some people tolerance applies, to other - no. The protection of the rights of one
group in this case means the destruction of the rights of another.
Political myth about the deep opposition between liberalism and Nazism have always refuted by
independent historians. Today this myth is completely discredited.
There are obvious interplay and close relationship between the two ideas - fascist and liberal
- obviously. They both go back to the idea of natural selection, transferred to human society. In
other words, the strongest must survive at the expense of the weakest. this doctrine is often called
"Social Darwinism". Indeed, the principle of "preservation of the fittest races", transposed into
social sciences, resulted in the adoption of the Nuremberg laws designed to protect the "purity of
race and blood" - the "law of the citizen of the Reich" and "Law on the protection of German blood
and German honor."
The return of fascism is a symptom of a certain historical tendencies. To such radical measures
economic elites resort only for the postponement of the final world crisis. But in the end it is
fascism that might again bring Western societies to the wedge of collapse.
The US elite does not like the message and thus is ready to kill the messenger... See
Snowden interview with Katrina van den Heuvel and Stephen F Cohen at the
Nation. Another interesting idea is the in the quote of Bruce Wilder: " classification as a mechanism for broadcasting information is exactly
right, and a revelation, at least to me."
I've an
article in the new issue of The National Interest looking at various liberal critiques
of Snowden and Greenwald, and finding them wanting. CT readers will have seen some of the arguments
in earlier form; I think that they're stronger when they are joined together (and certainly they
should be better written; it's nice to have the time to write a proper essay). I don't imagine that
the various people whom I take on will be happy, but they shouldn't be; they're guilty of some quite
wretched writing and thinking. More than anything else, like
Corey I'm
dismayed at the current low quality of mainstream liberal thinking. A politician wishes for her adversaries
to be stupid, that they will make blunders. An intellectual wishes for her adversaries to be brilliant,
that they will find the holes in her own arguments and oblige her to remedy them. I aspire towards
the latter, not the former, but I'm not getting my wish.
Over the last fifteen months, the columns and op-ed pages of the New York Times and the Washington
Post have bulged with the compressed flatulence of commentators intent on dismissing warnings
about encroachments on civil liberties. Indeed, in recent months soi-disant liberal intellectuals
such as Sean Wilentz, George Packer and Michael Kinsley have employed the Edward Snowden affair
to mount a fresh series of attacks. They claim that Snowden, Glenn Greenwald and those associated
with them neither respect democracy nor understand political responsibility.
These claims rest on willful misreading, quote clipping and the systematic evasion of crucial
questions. Yet their problems go deeper than sloppy practice and shoddy logic.
Rich Puchalsky 10.27.14 at 11:03 pm
"Yet this does not disconcert much of the liberal media elite. Many writers who used
to focus on bashing Bush for his transgressions now direct their energies against those who
are sounding alarms about the pervasiveness of the national-security state."
It's not just the elite. I can't wait for the Lawyers, Guns, and Money get-out-the-vote
drive. We'll have to see whether the slogan is "Vote, Stupid Purity Trolls" or "The Lesser
Evil Commands". Maybe just two-tone signs labeling their target voters "Dope" and "Deranged".
Dr. Hilarius 10.27.14 at 11:44 pm
An excellent analysis and summation.
Any defense of the national security state requires the proponent to show, at a minimum, that
the present apparatus is competent at its task. Having lived through Vietnam, the Gulf Wars,
Iraq and Afghanistan (not to mention many smaller governmental adventures) I see no evidence
of competence. Instead, it's repetitive failures of analysis and imagination no matter how
much raw intelligence is gathered.
Nor is there any evidence that existing oversight mechanisms function as intended. Recent
revelations about the CIA spying on the Senate should be enough to dispel the idea that
leakers have no role to play.
Kinsley is particularly loathsome. His position is little more than "your betters know best"
and that the state's critics are guttersnipes needing to be kicked to the curb. Kinsley
doesn't need a coherent position, his goal is to be a spokesman for the better sorts, nothing
more.
Collin Street 10.27.14 at 11:53 pm
Any defense of the national security state requires the proponent to show, at a minimum,
that the present apparatus is competent at its task
Dunning-Kruger, innit. There are actually pretty good reasons to believe that strategic
intelligence-gathering is pretty much pointless (because your strategic limitations and
abilities by-definition permeate your society and are thus clearly visible through open
sources), so you'd expect in that case that the only people who'd support secret strategic
intelligence-gathering would be people who don't have a fucking clue.
[specifically, I suspect that secret strategic intelligence gathering is particularly
attractive to people who lack the ability to discern people's motivations and ability through
normal face-to-face channels and the like…
… which is to say people with empathy problems. Which is something that crops up in other
contexts and may help explain certain political tendencies intelligence agencies tend to
share.]
Thornton Hall 10.28.14 at 12:03 am
This sentence is false and a willful distortion mixing legality and politics to elide the
basic fact that the Justice Department has not prosecuted anyone who did not break the law:
The continued efforts of U.S. prosecutors to redefine the politics of leaking so as to
indict journalists as well as their sources suggest that Greenwald had every right to be
worried and angry.
Meanwhile, ever since Mark Felt blew the whistle on a psychopath and the result was the
deification of Bob Woodward, the American elite has been utterly confused about the role of
journalism in a democracy.
That your essay mixes Professor Wilentz with the father of #Slatepitch, and an archetypical
"even the liberal New Republic…" journalist as if they all had the same job description is
part and parcel of this ongoing inability to separate the job of selling newspapers from the
job of public intellectual.
Glenn Greenwald is a "journalist" crank who is simply not in a category that overlaps with
Daniel Ellsberg. Snowden is in the same category as Ellsberg, and Packer is right to note that
he does not compare particularly well. But then Packer's analysis failed to explain why
Snowden needed the judgment and gravitas of Ellsburg. And it was a side point in any case,
because Packer's actual thesis was the sublimely stupid point that only "objective" journalism
can be trusted to do leaks right.
The other unfortunate confusion I see in the essay is the mixing of domestic and foreign
policy. There is not a single thing about the New Deal that informs opinion about Edward
Snowden. Nothing. What does regulating poultry production have to do with killing Iraqis? What
does the Civilian Conservation Core have to do with drone strikes in Pakistan? The Four
Freedom speech was a pivot from domestic to foreign policy given in 1941. Freedom from Want
was the New Deal. Freedom of Speech was about the looming conflict with fascism, not domestic
policy.
Both confusions–the failure to recognize journalists as pawns selling newspapers and the
failure to understand that foreign policy and liberalism do not have to be linked–result when
the blind spots of the press and the academy overlap. In areas where journalists and the
academy provide checks and balances to each other they tend to do well. Edward Snowden
represents the apex of the overlap between academic and journalistic obsessions, and so no one
is there to say: "Hey, the top freedom concerns of journalists and professors are not
synonymous with freedom writ large or with liberalism.
Daniel Nexon 10.28.14 at 12:48 am
Liked the piece, even though we probably come down differently on some of the merits.
I wonder if the explanation isn't simpler. A number of what you term "national security
liberals" have served in government and held clearances. Many of them - and here I
include myself - took seriously that obligation. And so there's a certain degree of innate
discomfort with the whole business of leaks, let alone those that don't seem narrowly
tailored. Wikileaks was not. Snowden's leaks included par-for-the-course foreign-intelligence
gathering (and this sets aside his escape to Hong Kong and subsequent decision to accept
asylum from the Russia Federation).
I recognize that there's a larger argument that you've made about how the
trans-nationalization of intelligence gathering - centered on the US - changes the moral
equation for some of these considerations. I don't want to debate that claim here. The
point is that you can be a civil-liberties liberal, believe that some of the disclosures have
served the public interest, and still feel deeply discomforted with the cast of characters.
Rich Puchalsky 10.28.14 at 1:07 am
"still feel deeply discomforted with the cast of characters"
We need better leakers - leakers who honor their promises not to reveal inside information.
Leakers who don't leak.
Not like that unsavory character, Daniel Ellsberg, who I hear had to see a psychiatrist.
Barry 10.28.14 at 1:09 am
" Indeed, in recent months soi-disant liberal intellectuals such as Sean Wilentz, George
Packer and Michael Kinsley …"
Kinsley is a hack who occasionally coins a good term. At 'Even the Liberal' New Republic,
he was a biddable wh*re for a vile man, Peretz. At Slate, he took the same attitude,
preferring snark to truth, and built it into the foundations.
Packer is not an intellectual, either. He's a cheerleader for war who has just enough give-a-sh*t
to right a book explaining the problems, long after it was clear to others that things had
failed.
I don't know much about Sean Wilentz, except that he's a long time 'cultural editor' at 'Even
the Liberal' New Republic under Peretz, which is a strike against him. Heck, it's two strikes.
BTW, after Watergate, the press did know its role in democracy – the elites are really
against it. IIRC, Whatshername the owner of the WaPo actually praised 'responsible
journalism' not too long afterwards.
Sev 10.28.14 at 1:58 am
#4 From a different era, the NYT story on use of Nazis by US spy agencies:
"In Connecticut, the C.I.A. used an ex-Nazi guard to study Soviet-bloc postage stamps for
hidden meanings."
A certain skepticism, at least, than and now, seem fully justified.
Matt 10.28.14 at 2:48 am
I don't think that even the most transparent, democratic, public decision making process
among American citizens can legitimately decide that German or Indian citizens cannot have
privacy. If in Bizarro World that makes me illiberal, then I will be illiberal.
Losing the capability to conduct mass electronic surveillance is akin to losing the
capability to make nerve gas or weaponized anthrax spores. It's a good thing no matter who
loses the capability, or how loudly hawks cry about the looming Atrocity Gap with rival
powers. It would be a better world if Russia and China also suffered massive, embarrassing
leaks about their surveillance systems akin to the Snowden leaks. But a world where there's
only embarrassing leaks about the USA and allies is better than a world with no leaks at all.
Better yet, the same technical and legal adaptations that can make spying by the USA more
difficult will also make Americans safer against spying efforts originating from China and
Russia. It's upsides all the way down.
John Quiggin 10.28.14 at 2:57 am
""I can see C as justified but not decamping to Hong Kong and Russia.""
Again, given the fact that the "right" people are immune from prosecution for any crimes they
commit in the course of politics (other than sexual indiscretations and individual, as opposed
to corporate, financial wrongdoing) this seems like a pretty hypocritical distinction. Those
involved in torture, from the actual waterboarders up to Bush and Cheney, don't have to think
about fleeing the US – indeed, the only (small) risk they face is in travelling to a
jurisdiction where the rule of law applies to them.
For the wrong people on the other hand, there are no reliable legal protections at all. On
recent precedent they could be declared "enemy combatants", held incommunicado, tortured and,
at least arguably, executed by military courts. This would require a reversal of stated policy
by the Obama Administration, but that's a pretty weak barrier.
bad Jim10.28.14 at 4:31 am
It's far from clear that the massive expansion of surveillance has actually been of any
use. The West hasn't faced any strategic threats since the end of the Cold War, and even the
Soviet threat was almost certainly less than we feared. Someone once remarked of the
intelligence-gathering efforts of that era, "It's difficult to discover the intentions of a
state which doesn't know its own intentions."
We seem to have been surprised by recent developments in the Middle East and by Russian
actions in Crimea and Ukraine; more to the point, it's not necessarily clear how we can or
should respond. It may be that the massive apparatus in place is unable to acquire the
information we desire. It's not clear that better information would actually be useful.
dsquared 10.28.14 at 4:53 am
I always thought it would be instructive to compare the views of the "national security
liberals" with a test case. What, for example, do they have to say about the other North
American government which operates a grisly system of unregulated political prisons in the
island of Cuba, but tries to portray itself as progressive because of its (admittedly
excellent) record of providing healthcare to the poor?
William Timberman 10.28.14 at 5:34 am
I think one point could be made a little more explicitly. Beginning in the late
Thirties, without a great deal of serious concern for the possible consequences, the machinery
of the social welfare state in the U.S., such as it was, was gradually repurposed to serve the
national security state, and from 1947 or so to the present, the pace of that repurposing has
rarely slackened. One can argue about how much of it was attributable to intent, and how
much to circumstance, how much or how little bad faith it took to complete the conversion, but
there's little doubt that it's now largely over and done with, and that the consequences are
there to see for anyone who cares to look.
George Packer may think that the national security state is a perfectly admirable creation,
but if so, I'd question whether or not he's really a liberal. By any definition of liberalism
I'm aware of, it's odd liberal indeed who doesn't think Edward Snowden ought to be trusted
with sensitive information, but doesn't at all mind leaving it in the custody of Keith
Alexander.
maidhc 10.28.14 at 8:03 am
The CIA produced the Pentagon Papers under orders from LBJ. They produced a document
blaming everything on the stupid politicians while the CIA was always right. Unfortunately no
one could read it because it was secret. Hence it was leaked to the New York Times.
Woodward and Bernstein had intelligence backgrounds. The Washington Post was known to have
close CIA ties. Everyone involved in Watergate was tied to the CIA and the Bay of Pigs.
Nixon was taken down from the right.
If you look at those Cold War days, almost everything that was considered to be highly secret,
the world would have been better off if it had been public knowledge. Major policy decisions
on both sides were based on false information provided by intelligence services.
That is not to say that things that happened back in those days are unimportant now. The
career of Stepan Bandera, for example, is tied in very closely with today's headlines.
J Thomas 10.28.14 at 8:43 am
#12 Watson Ladd
I can easily imagine bribing Putin's butler to be an easy and effective way to get good
information on both of those, and I can imagine that doing so openly would be catastrophic.
Whyever would you expect Putin's butler to know either of those?
But I find this plausible - Putin's butler goes to the secret police and tells them he's had
an offer. They say "OK, take the money and tell them this:" and they give him a cover story to
tell the spies.
Continuing the story, a top general's batman does the same thing, but the secret police do not
coordinate well enough and he gets a different cover story.
Another top general's mistress does it and gets a third cover story to tell. The stories do
not add up at all.
So then somebody in the CIA looks at all the conflicting data, and MAKES UP a story which
makes sense, concentrating on estimates of capabilities, and estimates about what choices are
likely based on internal politics etc.
The report reaches various people in the military with a need-to-know, who discount it and who
make their mostly-mundane decisions about preparation on the basis of
path-of-least-resistance. The report may even reach the President, who also discounts it.
Furthermore, plenty of information that isn't strategic in nature can be very useful.
Knowing that in event of war, your fighter planes can outmatch theirs, is useful.
How would you find that out, except by testing it for real with their real pilots with real
training, etc? Base it on the performance claims by US manufacturers versus the potential
enemy's manufacturing claims?
So is knowing that they are planning to invade a country, or are actively
collaborating with terrorist organizations.
The USA makes plans to invade other countries *all the time*. Often we publicly
threaten to invade them for a year or more ahead of time, while we slowly build up supply
dumps in nearby areas. It usually isn't hard to tell whether a nation is ready to invade some
particular other nation. The hard part is predicting whether or when they actually do it.
Chances are, they don't know themselves and nobody in the world can accurately predict that
until shortly before it happens.
The USA and Israel actively cooperate with terrorist organizations *all the time*.
It doesn't mean that much. Except we can use it for propaganda. "Our enemies actively
collaborate with terrorist organizations! Our secret intelligence organizations have proof,
but we can't show it to you because that would compromise our sources. Trust us."
Very little of this is likely to be reported openly, particularly from dictatorships.
Or from the USA. Or from anybody, really. We all like our surprises.
J Thomas 10.28.14 at 8:57 am
#19 Daniel Nexon
As I suggested above, albeit perhaps opaquely, it is perfectly possible to say "I can
see C as potentially justified, but not D… G" and to say "I can see C as justified but not
decamping to Hong Kong and Russia."* These strike me as categorically distinct arguments
from "Snowden, Greenwald, and Assange aren't the 'right sort of people," even if those
advancing that claim invoke some of the same warrants.
I don't understand this sort of claim. Normally, US citizens have basicly no
information about what our expensive secret-creating organizations do. The basic argument is
"Trust us. We're doing good, but it would be catastrophic if you knew.".
Now we have a more-or-less-random samples from Snowden and Manning. So my questions about
their personal character center around two themes:
1. Did they release false data, created by the US government to make cover stories to hide the
real stuff that the US government does not want us to know?
2. Did they release false data, created by some foreign government and intended to discredit
the US government?
3. Are there important discrepancies between them, that might indicate that at least one of
them was doctored?
Apart from those, why are we talking about Snowden or Manning or Greenwald, instead of what
we've found out about our government?
Barry 10.28.14 at 12:04 pm
Tony Lynch 10.28.14 at 4:30 am
"The persoanl animosity towards GG from, presumably, people with no personal relationship to
GG, is weird. Whence this incessant personalism – not only from Kinsley et. al., but from
those who claim more genuine liberal and left convictions? Why does it seem important to
approach things by venting this personal animosity?"
Here are my thoughts:
1). Most of these elite journalists are leakers of classified information, and guilty of
serious felonies. However, they are lapdogs of the establishment, and comparable more to
Pravda than a free press. They don't like unauthorized leaks.
2). All three liberals mentioned eat a lot of right-wing sh*t, for actual liberals. Again,
they are lapdogs, who occasionally criticize, but in a limited fashion. Heck, Kinsley
played Buchanon's poodle on TV show. They therefore don't like people who actually oppose
the establishment, moreso because it shows them up as the frauds that they are.
lvlld 10.28.14 at 1:17 pm
@39
Not quite.
MacNamara (politician) ordered his staff (Office of the Secretary of Defense) to carry out the
study (they got some material from the CIA and State), out of a concern that the whole thing
might be a huge mistake on the part of US policymakers – politicians and otherwise – from
World World 2 on down. That was July, 1967. He resigned a few months later, the report was
completed in late 1968.
Dan Ellsberg (Rand, ex-OSD) was involved in producing it, and was dismayed by the scale of the
official deceptions and thought that yes, this was probably material in the public interest.
He leaked it to the Times and the Post, the latter of which's decision to publish on June 18,
1971 was not made in consultation with its city beat reporters, Carl Bernstein and Bob
Woodward.
Thornton Hall 10.28.14 at 2:15 pm
So the following points are uncontroverted:
Glenn Greenwald is a clown, but this fact has nothing to do with anything.
Edward Snowden is a bit dim on how the world works, and this has had consequences good
bad and otherwise.
When white elites are forced to consider the criminal justice system they are
shocked, shocked to find that prosecutors are arbitrary and vindictive assholes.
Our vocabulary of politics is hopelessly confused to the point where a political
science professor will assert that a fellow professor's support for the New Deal is in
conflict with his position on the NSA.
Elites insist on confusing the motives and morality of leakers with the motives and
morality of journalists.
J Thomas 10.28.14 at 2:16 pm
#13 Andrew F
He claimed that the CIA might hire Chinese gangsters to murder him, or journalists associated
with him, among other things. So to say that he has a "teenager's conspiratorial view of the
world" is not to speak without some justification.
This minor point deserves some thought.
Do you have more access to CIA secrets than Snowden did?
If not, why do you believe that your understanding of what the CIA might do is better informed
than his was?
Layman 10.28.14 at 2:23 pm
"I think it is perfectly fair to judge Snowden based on the totality of his actions. Isn't
that how we're supposed to judge people? "
Why judge him at all, in the context of discussing his revelations and what they mean for
civil liberties? It's perfectly clear that some people choose to judge Snowden in order to
dismiss those revelations. Isn't that the point of the OP? Do you agree that your personal
distaste for Snowden is irrelevant to the larger question? And that people who seek to
distract from that larger question by focusing on Snowden's character are engaged in hackery?
Bruce Wilder 10.28.14 at 3:51 pm
Dan Nexon @ 47
The apparatus of surveillance and the system of classification are both parts of a vast system
of secrecy - aspects of the architecture of the secret state, the deep state.
I've had a security clearance, and so have some personal acquaintance with the system of
classification and what is classified, why it is classified and so on, as well as experience
with the effect classification has on people, their behavior and administration. I see people
sometimes elaborate the claim that, of course the state must have the capacity to keep some
information confidential, which is undoubtedly true, but sidesteps the central issue, which
is, what does the system of classification do? what does the secrecy of the deep state do?
What is the function of the system of classification?
From my personal acquaintance, I do not think it can be said that its function is to keep
secrets. Real secrets are rarely classified. Information is classified so that it can be
communicated, and in the present system operated by the U.S. military and intelligence
establishment, broadcast. I suppose, without knowing as an historic fact, that the system of
classification originated during WWII as a means to distribute information on a need-to-know
basis, but that's not what goes on now. The compartmentalization that the term,
classification, implies, is largely absent. That Manning or Snowden could obtain and release
the sheer volume of documents that they did - not the particular content of any of them -
is the first and capital revelation concerning what the system is, and is not. The system
is not keeping confidential information confidential, nor is it keeping secrets; it is
broadcasting information.
The very idea that a system that broadcasts information in a way that allows someone at the
level of a Manning or Snowden to accumulate vast numbers of documents has kept any secrets
from the secret services of China or Russia is, on its face, absurd. The system revealed by
the simple fact of the nature of Snowden's and Manning's breaches is not capable of keeping
secrets. Snowden was a contractor at a peripheral location, Manning a soldier of very low
rank.
This comment thread is just as disgusting as the comment threads elsewhere,
so I'll direct people to what I think is one of the best articles on all
this:
Bruce Sterling's.
Fox News for apparatchiks. Brilliant, especially since
not even Keith Alexander in his
specially-equipped war room had any idea how many apparatchiks there
were, nor where they were, nor what they were up to when his panopticon was
looking the other way.
Bruce Wilder 10.28.14 at 4:02 pm
Rich Puchalsky : If only the government could tell us the real story! Then we'd know
that they aren't lying.
The system of classification is a system of censorship. It creates a system of privileged
access to information that permits highly-placed officials to strategically leak information
as a means to manipulate the political system.
It doesn't keep secrets from the enemies of democracy abroad; it creates enemies of democracy
at home, placing them in the highest reaches of government.
J Thomas 10.28.14 at 4:14 pm
357 Layman
"I think it is perfectly fair to judge Snowden based on the totality of his actions. Isn't
that how we're supposed to judge people? "
Why judge him at all, in the context of discussing his revelations and what they mean for
civil liberties?
Judging Snowden is a very serious matter for everybody who has a security clearance.
If you have a clearance, then you have to consider whether or not you ought to do the same
thing. On the one hand you swore an oath not to. You would be breaking your word. And you can
expect to be punished severely.
On the other hand, there are the things you know about, that have destroyed American
democracy. Do you have an obligation to the public? But then, you probably know that it's
already too late and nothing can be done.
What should you do? In that context, deciding just how wrong Snowden was, is vitally
important.
It's perfectly clear that some people choose to judge Snowden in order to dismiss those
revelations.
Well sure, of course. If it's their job to patch things up, they have to use whatever handle
is available.
But apart from the hacks, every single honest person who has a security clearance has to
somehow find a way to justify that he has not done what Snowden did. If Snowden did it
incompetently, he might have an obligation to do it better. Or maybe his obligation instead is
to the power structure and not to the people.
Likely by now there is better technology in place to catch people who try to reveal secrets.
We can't know how many people have tried to reveal secrets since Snowden, who have failed and
disappeared.
Layman 10.28.14 at 4:15 pm
Bruce Wilder @ 72
Bravo! This view of classification as a mechanism for broadcasting information is exactly
right, and a revelation, at least to me.
- Для нас "Антимайдан" начался еще в
конце 2013-го года. Лидер одесской "Боротьбы" Алексей Албу был тогда депутатом облсовета,
и руководитель фракции Партии регионов попросил его поучаствовать в защите облсовета – тогда реально
штурма ожидали. Конечно, регионалы нам никак не друзья, но все прекрасно понимали, что пусть лучше
у власти останутся регионалы, чем придут эти…
"СП": - А в Одессе были сторонники "Майдана"?
- Конечно, у нас "Майдан" был с самого начала. Народу немного, в среднем несколько сотен людей
крутилось возле памятника Дюку, но к ним никто всерьез не относился: дураки есть дураки, что с них
взять? Никто разгонять их даже не пытался. Да и одесситов толком среди них не было.
"СП": - А местные власти как к ним относились?
- Местные власти немного запаниковали. Во время защиты облсовета, мы уже третьи сутки там ночевали,
по телевизору передали, что Янукович предложил Яценюку стать главой правительства.
Это уже серьезный звоночек был, это показывало, что другими путями он справиться с ними не может.
Яценюк в итоге отказался, т.е. он тогда уже понимал, что они стопроцентно власть перевернут. Поэтому
местные власти были в панике, не знали, что делать.
"СП": - Как появилось движение "Куликово поле"?
- Так вышло, что защита облсовета сплотила много людей из разных организаций, против которых мы
сами порой выступали, то же "Славянское единство". Было принято коллективное решение: создать что-то
наподобие единого совета, создать реальную народную силу сопротивления "Майдану". Сплотились все
"антимайданные" силы. Зародилось движение "Куликово поле" - потому что первый митинг был проведен
на Куликовом поле. Когда-то там снесли памятник Ленину, перенесли его вглубь города. А вообще это
просто очень большая территория. Очень большая площадь в центре города. Когда первый митинг там проходил,
там было около десяти тысяч человек. Это был просто митинг, еще не марш. До этого самый массовый
митинг, который мне доводилось видеть в Одессе, провело КПУ против ущемления прав рабочих 24 января
2009- го года. Тогда вышло девятьсот человек.
А здесь собралось около десяти тысяч человек, и с трибуны объявили, что мы отсюда никуда не уйдем
и будем создавать палаточный городок. Тогда же создали народную дружину – молодые парни с битами,
которые должны были защищать это Куликово поле. А 16 марта был проведен первый марш – в нем участвовало
реально около двадцати-двадцати пяти тысяч человек. Все думали, что все, тут уже никакой другой власти
никогда не будет.
"СП": - Была эйфория победы?
- Конечно. Двадцать пять тысяч человек. Одесса в жизни никогда такого не видела. Я встал в начале
колонны на перекрестке, откуда колонна пошла в сторону облсовета, снимал на видео. И вот прошло минут
сорок непрерывной съемки. А колонна все не заканчивалась, она прошла кварталов восемь вперед, а хвоста
не было видно. Причем, процентов 90 участников не состояли ни в каких организациях. Люди спонтанно
вышли на улицу, чтобы не было того, что происходит в Киеве. Тогда казалось, что какой "Майдан" в
Одессе? Все, нету их больше.
"СП": - А что произошло 2 мая?
- За день до того, первого мая у нас была небольшая "маевочка" – мы провели марш, на котором было
около четырех тысяч человек – к тому времени марши всем надоели, так как все начали понимать, что
они ничего не дают. Каждые выходные мы проводили марши, сначала было двадцать пять тысяч человек,
потом двадцать, потом пятнадцать. Всем надоело, что там одни только разговоры и ходьба по городу.
Четыре тысячи человек первого мая – и то хорошо. Потом все по компаниям разбились и поехали отдыхать.
Второго мая, ничего не подозревая, я часа в два пошел с сестрой в универсам "Таврия" на Дерибасовской.
Заходим (там дальше уже все началось, но я еще ничего не увидел), что-то покупаем, а охранник начинает
бегать, кричать, чтоб все уходили, что они закрываются…
"СП": - А ты знал, что там съехались футбольные фанаты?
- Я знал, просто у нас до этого каждую неделю, когда "Черноморец" с кем-то играл, были такие слухи,
что все, срочная мобилизация на Куликовом поле, нас придут сносить. Естественно, мы туда бегали,
но никто не приходил. Естественно, всем это надоело, и никто уже не относился к этому серьезно. Так
вот, охранник выгнал нас из универсама, смотрю: стрельба, камни летят, взрывпакеты... Я сестру забрал
домой, зашел в Интернет, включил онлайн трансляцию и немного обалдел, потому что никогда такого количества
этих дебилов в городе не было.
"СП": - То есть, это приезжие все были?
- Так точно. Потому что фанаты "Черноморца", которые участвовали в марше "За единую Украину",
в большинстве своем, когда увидели, что началось, сразу помахали всем ручкой и сказали: "Нам это
нафиг не надо!" и пошли на футбол. Я говорю не про ультрас, а про тех, кто просто пришел на марш.
Звоню нашему товарищу Андрею Бражевскому. Я был уверен, что он туда пошел, потому что он
всегда оказывался рядом с такими "движухами". Говорю ему: "Андрей, что происходит?" Он говорит: "Так
и так. Нас тут зажали, но мы пока держимся, у нас тут есть пока какие-никакие силы. Я говорю: "Давай
мы попробуем к вам туда попасть!" Надо помогать товарищам – нельзя бросать. Было принято решение
ехать на Куликово поле, посмотреть, что там происходит. Там люди готовились к тому, что те потом
придут сюда, на Куликово..
Приехали туда – зрелище удручающее. В тот момент там было, навскидку человек сто пятьдесят. Причем
качественный состав удручал. Человек сорок молодых пацанов, человек пятьдесят женщин от тридцати
до шестидесяти, ну и человек пятьдесят мужики уже в возрасте – 50-60-70 лет. Зрелище печальное, но,
тем не менее, мы взяли палки в руки, сделали баррикады – в общем, приготовились обороняться. Все,
конечно, понимали, что сюда придут, и мы все получим по шее, но оставить людей мы морального права
не имели. Приняли решение остаться с ними, вооружать их палками, собирать камни.
Собралось максимум двести пятьдесят - триста человек. Был еще слух, что сейчас те наши, что были
на Греческой, к нам вернутся, несколько сотен к нам вернутся, а мы тут уже им и помощь собрали, и
мы одной толпой дадим отпор. В итоге с Греческой вернулось ровно пятнадцать человек. Это единственные,
кому удалось оттуда выбраться без милиции. Вот они вырвались толпой, добежали до Куликова, мы их
встретили…
Так вот. Нам уже звонят из центра города, говорят, они уже прошли "книжку" – книжный рынок на
полпути между Куликовом и Греческой. Колонна в тысячу человек. Исключительно "фанатье". Несколько
сотен с "Майдана", полностью экипированные – с огнестрелами. И половина просто с битами, с цепями.
Нам говорят: они в десяти минутах ходьбы до вас, готовьтесь! Ну, мы посмотрели на свой периметр.
Выходило, что у нас на один метр баррикад один человек, ну, это совсем уж несусветный бред, поэтому
сузили баррикады до крыльца здания.
"СП": - А здание вы тогда контролировали?
- Никто не контролировал. Оно вообще пустое стояло. Не, ну работники Дома профсоюзов работали.
Но второго мая вместе с охраной, с обычными вахтерами, там сидели пацаны из одесской дружины. Мы
решили сбиться под здание. Естественно, женщин пытались прогнать. Очень многие обвиняют лидеров "Антимайдана"
в том, что они завели людей в здание, но это ложь. Есть куча видео, снятого нами, когда депутат-регионал
Вячеслав Маркин, который погиб там, выходит на трибуну с микрофоном и начинает, что ему несвойственно,
матом орать на женщин, очень красноречиво посылает всех женщин с Куликова поля. А там бабушки уже
ходят с щитами, каски взяли. Он говорит: "Идите отсюда! Зачем оно вам надо?! Уходите! Не мешайте
нам! Нам придется не с ними драться, а бегать вас спасать".
Но женщины у нас шибко боевые: никуда не ушли. В итоге в суматохе начали их отправлять в здание
и сами забегать, потому что уже увидели эту колонну. Мы с частью людей остались на крыльце…
"СП": - А были попытки построить реальные укрепления, ну, с точки зрения военной науки? Были
среди вас спецы, кто понимал, как нужно держать оборону?
- С точки зрения военной науки это все было ни о чем. Обороны как таковой не было. Ну, там кусочки
асфальта, которые мы наковыряли за полчаса до их прихода, поддоны поломанные – так, все спонтанно.
Был у нас один человек с опытом, военный, наш знакомый. Когда мы это все делали, он подошел и
сказал: "Ребята, вы понимаете, что нам тут всем конец?! Вы же должны это понимать! Что вы делаете?"
Ему говорят: "Ну, давай, предлагай что-то другое". А что там предлагать? Предлагать-то нечего. В
итоге этот сильно умный военный сбежал, и черт с ним.
Часть людей, у кого были щиты, осталась на крыльце и начала камнями обкидываться. Деревянный щит
это, конечно, вещь хорошая, когда в тебя камнями кидают, но когда они начали просто расстреливать…
"СП": - Огнестрел какой был?
- Стволов калибра 5,45 мм точно было очень много. Это либо охотничья "Сайга", либо автомат Калашникова.
Скорее всего, это были охотничьи карабины, разница с "обычным" только лишь в том, что такое оружие
не может вести стрельбу очередями.
Когда наши люди с щитами уже начали падать простреленные, мы все зашли в здание, ибо уже понимали,
что нет выбора. Вот мы стоим у здания, они метров так за сорок. Мы кидаем камнями, они стоят и стреляют.
Им не надо даже близко подходить.
Когда мы зашли в здание, там была суета. На моих глазах мужик лет 60-ти стоит возле окна, смотрит.
Потом раз и резко ложится – у него голова прострелена, это я лично видел, понятно, что это не камнем
кинули, что выстрелом в голову убили. Таких картин было много. В какое окно не заглянешь – в него
сразу либо пара пуль прилетит, либо "коктейль Молотова".
Мы продолжали кидаться камнями, пока они не закончились. Камней было немного – кто, сколько по
карманам успел распихать – все! Потом начали кидать в них куски стекол – ну, хоть что-то. Толку было
мало. Ну, кинешь ты кусок стекла метров на двадцать, а он стоит в сорока метрах и стреляет в тебя.
Потом мы забежали в одно крыло здания, там был один из выходов, одна из боковых лестниц, видимо,
они туда уже проникли и распылили много "перцовки". Обычного милицейского "перца" – там дышать было
невозможно, дышишь – сразу слезы текут. Мы с того крыла убежали. В это время внизу уже разгоралось…
"СП": - А у вас было какое-то личное оружие, те же газовые баллоны, травматы?
- Я не видел, хотя пробежал все наши "рубежи обороны". Нам реально нечем было отбиваться. Было
бы у нас хотя бы два автомата Калашникова и хотя бы по сто патронов на каждый, мы хотя бы какой-то
отпор дали бы – они бы просто убежали.
"СП": - В какой момент пришло понимание, что надо выбираться?
- Уже валил сильный дым. Я начал бегать, искать своих – Лешу Албу, Андрея Бражевского, а там суматоха,
куча народу. Все куда-то бегают. В один момент депутат Слава Маркин поймал меня за руку и говорит:
"Влад, не нервничай, все будет хорошо!" Я говорю: "Да я не нервничаю, все нормально!" и бегу дальше.
Увидел Андрея Бражевского. А у Андрея была проблема – он очень плохо видел. Он хоть и был спортсменом,
но у него зрение было очень плохое, с трех-пяти метров он тебя не узнает просто. Я ему кричу: "Андрей!"
Он слышит вроде, но не видит. Смотрит-смотрит, хлоп, и побежал куда-то. Потом встречаю Лешу Албу.
Он говорит, если будет пожар, наверх нет смысла бежать, потому что сверху не спрыгнешь и в любом
случае либо сгоришь, либо задохнешься, давай держаться поближе к первому этажу.
Руководствуясь этой логикой, мы поймали, кого смогли, за руку, вышли в одно из крыльев здания,
спустились ко второму этажу – там окно, и вот уже метра два-три, и площадка! Стояли под этим окном,
там еще куча народу была. Стояли просто дышали воздухом – повыбивали все стекла и дышали. А внизу
уже стояли эти и говорили: ну, давайте выходите!
Ну, мы думали, будем стоять, держать оборону на том этаже. Место узкое, а в узком пространстве,
как известно, количество не имеет никакого значения. Так мы стояли и знали, что над нами, этажом
выше тоже вроде наши, лестницы тоже нашими заняты. И вот так вот мы стоим, пока через какое-то время
сверху не вылетает тело уже с украинской ленточкой, кто-то из ультрасов и говорит, типа, опа, конец
вам! А рядом со мной стоит старый дедушка. Возможно, бывший военный – он был в камуфляже с саперной
лопатой. Ну, дедушке уважение – он не растерялся и сходу так сильно кинул в этого дурачка. Он ему
в живот попал, что тот скрутился и убежал. А у меня был в руках большой огнетушитель. Я его взял
на случай контактного боя, если придется сдерживать – он не дает подойти, у него напор очень сильный.
Я дал ему огнетушителем, он вскарабкался резко наверх и убежал, кинул в нас какую-то арматурину,
но не в кого не попал. Потом они решили с нами заговорить.
Говорят: "Выведите женщин, а с вами мы потом разберемся!". Мы говорим: "Хорошо, не вопрос, только
дайте их вывести спокойно, без проблем". Они еще говорят: "Выводите женщин, мы их трогать не будем,
мы сами местные". Мы ему: "Местный, ты с какого района?" Он: "Будешь выступать, мы вообще тебя убьем!".
Просто местных правых мы всех знаем. У нас с ними уже лет пять конфликты, мы с ними постоянно дрались.
В общем, их всего в Одессе пятьдесят человек, дебилов. Понятно было, что это никакие не местные.
В общем, мы вывели женщин через окно второго этажа. Пожарный помог – поставил какую-то лестницу.
Восемь женщин мы вывели, и нас семеро осталось. Четверо было молодых парней – до 35, остальным лет
по 45-50. Стоим и понимаем, что сейчас они нас сверху закидают "коктейлями", надо как-то выходить.
Уже было осознание, что всем конец, все через их руки будем проходить, но вариантов не было – дыму
уже было очень много, дышать уже было нечем.
Вышли, и сразу началось. Сначала подбежал пожарный, он хотел все как-то урегулировать, говорит:
"Давайте, ребята, я постараюсь вас вывести!". Понятно, что у него не было шансов нас вывести, потому
что подошло такое здоровенькое лысоватое мурло с револьвером в руках и говорит ему: "Свободен! Домой!".
Пожарный уходит. Нам: "Руки вверх!". Но там он не один, там уже куча этих дебилов стояло.
И вот нас выводят, и тут подбегает другое мурло с битой в одной руке, с цепочкой в другой и на
меня (а я был в ярком салатовом балахоне): "Вот это тот гад, который нам из окна "факи" показывал,
стекла кидал!" А я там походу стеклом попал кому-то…
И вот нас всех, человек пятнадцать, в коридор, который милиция сделала…
"СП": - То есть милиция там присутствовала?
- Да, но их там было всего человек тридцать, ну, куда им вмешиваться? Война идет… На самом деле
мы им благодарны за то, что они много людей оттуда вывели и спасли. Просто, если бы они рыпнулись,
их бы там рядом с нами положили – они ж без оружия были. В общем, сделали нам коридор, чтобы нас
вывести – тут пятнадцать милиционеров, тут пятнадцать милиционеров, а между ними около сотни этих
козлов с битами, с цепями. Тут нас начали просто гасить без разбора, мы даже ничего не успели сделать.
Только пытаешься прикрыть голову – сбоку прилетает цепь. Вот у меня от цепи осталось (демонстрирует).
Нас просто забили, сложили в кучку и все. Потом нас снимают, какой-то придурок приносит украинский
флаг, говорит мне, типа, целуй флаг! Там все лежали, один я сидел с разбитой головой. Делал вид,
что оглушен, ничего не понимаю. Потом его свои же утащили, чтобы не позорился.
Тогда время бежало немного иначе, сейчас сложно вспомнить, сколько мы там лежали в луже крови.
В конце концов, уже стемнело, и нас попыталась выдернуть милиция. Есть даже видео, где мы валяемся
кучкой, все вокруг ходят, кто-то смеется, кто-то плюет. Какой-то дед старый пытается взять тебя за
руку, рубануть лопатой по руке. Старый дебил, его потом свои же тоже оттянули. Потом милиция подгоняет
"зэчку" поближе к нам, говорят: вставайте быстро, ползите, грузитесь! Это было еще одно испытание,
потому что, ладно, там я – у меня голова была разбита, но идти я мог. А с нами валялось несколько
человек без сознания, забитых до полусмерти – их тащили. Те, кто мог идти, они, пока шли в эту "зэчку",
по дороге получали еще от каждого палкой по голове, еще кто куда. Нас закатали в эту "зэчку", так
они начали забегать, бить палками.
В итоге, милиция нас вывезла, завезла в Малиновский райотдел, там вышел один из командиров этого
райотдела, сказал: "Мужики, держитесь! Мы морально с вами, но видите, мы ничем не можем вам помочь,
у нас вообще приказ всех вас тупо арестовывать. Но я в гробу видел такие приказы! Все, я вызываю
"Скорую", и вы разъезжаетесь!".
Да, милиция была за нас. Но какие у них были шансы – там личного состава около сотни человек –
разогнать три тысячи уродов?! Эти тридцать-сорок человек, что были у Дома профсоюзов – они почти
не вмешивались, да они и не могли бы вмешаться таким количеством. Но если бы не они, нас бы оттуда
не вывезли. Нас там просто забили бы до смерти. Удар палкой по голове сам по себе не смертелен, но
когда двадцать раз в одно место – это уже серьезно. В общем, мы поехали в больницы, нам позашивали
головы. Дали направление на рентген, но мы уже не стали дожидаться, потому что нам уже хотелось спрятаться
дома, прийти в себя, понять, что происходит…
"СП": - На твой взгляд, что стало причиной смерти большинства погибших в Доме профсоюзов? На
эту тему было много спекуляций, что уже мертвые тела поджигали…
- Я не могу однозначно ответить. Да, там было несколько тел, по которым было видно, что их палили,
но это нормально было – там столько разных уродов было с волчьим крюками на щитах, из батальона "Азов"
были люди даже. Очевидец Саша Герасимов – это комсомолец, который просидел 11 лет в тюрьме
по делу одесских комсомольцев, он тоже был там. Начал задыхаться угарным газом, потерял сознание
и упал. Так вот его подняли эти самые люди в черных касках с волчьими крюками. Подтащили к окну и
говорят: "Прыгай! Лучше прыгай, а то мы тебя до смерти забьем!" С пятого этажа! Естественно он не
прыгал, пытался сопротивляться, они начали его бить. Есть даже кусочек видео, где он выползает, а
его бьют и бьют. Он после этого три месяца в больнице пролежал, у него был мощнейший ожог одной ноги,
перебитое в хлам колено второй, ему кусок коленной чашечки удаляли – в общем, чуть инвалидом не оставили,
до сих пор с палкой ходит.
Но я думаю, что если не половина, то точно треть погибла от огнестрельного оружия. Сто процентов.
Там действительно было видно, что так оно и было…
"СП": - Но ведь любой эксперт увидит пулю…
- Эксперты увидят, но они же ее и выкинут. Андрею Бражевскому написали в свидетельстве о смерти,
что он разбился, выпав из окна. Причем на видео видно, что, когда он выпал, он просто сломал ногу.
Он был еще жив и пытался уйти. Нет, его добивают. Стоит какое-то мурло и добивает арматурой по черепу.
Ну, как это разбился? На видео же все ясно видно, как тех, кто падает из окон, на земле уже добивают
до смерти.
"СП": - Из Одессы потом пришлось бежать?
- Да. Уехали мы в срочном порядке в ночь с 8 на 9 мая, т.е. через неделю. Была опасность ареста,
и товарища Алексея Албу предупредили по телефону его бывшие хорошие знакомые о том, что 9 мая готовятся
аресты всей "Боротьбы", и что лучше нам до завтрашнего дня исчезнуть. Уезжали все вместе, всей организацией,
на двух машинах с пересадками, на такси, потом микроавтобус наняли – до Херсона, потом в Крым. Вернулся
в Одессу я 12 августа…
"СП": - А с какой целью?
- Да просто захотел, и вернулся. Нет, я понимал, что это опасно. Но на меня ничего не было. Ко
мне приходили домой СБУшники и милиционеры несколько раз – хотели меня вызвать на допрос как свидетеля
по 2 мая. Я не боялся, давайте, вызывайте. Приду, если надо. Я же свидетель, я же никого не убивал.
Только ни на какие допросы меня не вызвали. А через месяц арестовали, ровно через месяц, после того,
как я вернулся.
Конечно, они знали, что я вернулся. Телефон естественно прослушивался, а я номера не менял и ни
от кого не скрывался, ничего не боялся, общался и с матерью, и с сестрой – у них телефоны давно на
прослушке. Ни от кого не прятался, жил на съемной квартире, работал…
Я, когда вернулся, начал общаться с людьми с "Антимайдана" – это были люди, которые не смирились
с тем, что произошло и хотели что-то делать. Ходили по ночам, рисовали граффити типа "Хунту вон!",
листовки клеили – хоть что-то, чтобы внести свою лепту в борьбу. Пропаганда Новороссии, само собой.
Новороссия - это единственный живой пример противостояния киевской власти, нигде больше такого не
было. Это у нас тут с флагами ходят. А там люди взяли в руки оружие и рискуют своими жизнями, чтобы
не пустить эту чуму к себе.
Была пятница 12 сентября, прекрасный осенний вечер, в Одессе "бархатный сезон", когда море еще
теплое, а воздух уже немного прохладный. Обычный вечер, небольшая компания, все прилично. Дверь у
нас всегда была открыта – мы никого не боялись. Это такой типичный одесский дворик, любой сосед без
спросу к тебе зайдет. И залетают какие-то люди. Поначалу непонятно было, кто. Половина в "гражданке",
а те, кто в форме – без опознавательных знаков. Ни украинских флажков, ни нашивок. Первое, что я
увидел – какого-то гада с новеньким автоматом Калашникова. Хороший кевларовый шлем, на шлеме череп
с костями.
Забегают, кричат "Всем руки вверх", надевают наручники, начинают пинать ногами. Потом всех лишних
вывели, оставили меня, Попова и третьего нехорошего человека - Пап Палыча Шишмана,
который, как оказалось, сотрудничал с ними. Товарищ Попов с нами был тогда второго мая. Сейчас он
в народной милиции ЛНР, в четвертой бригаде.
Ночью нас привозят в СБУ, разводят, как положено, по разным кабинетам, начинается допрос. У них
уже была готовая "пидозра" - это по-русски дословно "подозрение". Что-то вроде обвинительного акта.
Сначала они документально предъявляют "подозрение", потом пытаются досудебным расследованием доказать,
потом передают дело в суд. Лично мне было предъявлено "подозрение" по статье 28-3 "Организация террористической
группировки". Там организация, финансирование. То есть, если ты ребят коньяком угостил, поговорил
с ними о Новороссии – это, оказывается, уже терроризм. А бутылка коньяка – это финансирование. Следователь
сразу сказал: От восьми до пятнадцати. Но, говорит, у тебя проблемы есть. Я говорю: какие? Он: ты
организатор. Я говорю: и что? Он: ну, ладно, не пятнадцать, но четырнадцать точно получишь.
Несколько дней ждали адвокатов. Поговорили с ними о тактике нашей защиты. Надеялись на суд. Но
на первом же суде, когда продлевали меру пресечения, поняли, что это бесполезно. Адвокат говорит:
самое большое, что на вас есть – то, что петарду кинули кому-то под окно, будем на домашний арест
переводить. Судья это все читает, смеется: 28-3? Смотрит на следователя: вы серьезно? Да что же они
такого сделали? Следователь говорит: сделали! Ну, судья говорит, что понимает, что тут надо под домашний
арест, что не за что закрывать. Но вариантов нету, и …60 дней СИЗО! Судья прямо говорит: "У меня
вариантов нет. Я вас выпущу, а завтра вместо вас туда заеду…"
Вот так на четыре месяца попал в СИЗО. Там же, в Одессе. Раз в неделю выдергивали в СБУ на допросы
– не очень приятное общение с не очень приятными людьми…
"СП": - Как пришли к тому, чтобы тебя обменять?
- Это такая тяжелая подпольная работа, потому что списки наши достать было тяжело, у нас не было
связи с волей нормальной. Ко мне 26 декабря в восемь вечера заходит старший по корпусу на вечернюю
поверку с листочком, называет четыре фамилии и говорит: пятнадцать минут на сборы, вас ждут, вы свободны,
до свиданья!
Мы в шоке, собираемся. Открывается дверь, стоят какие-то дураки в форме, в масках и по одному
ведут куда-то. Ну, мы поняли тогда, что обмен, уже сталкивались до этого. Нас собрали, выдали на
руки постановление прокуратуры, что дело закрыто за нехваткой улик. Справку, что ты официально свободен.
То есть я могу с этой справкой из СИЗО спокойно пойти домой спать. Но меня выводят в наручниках.
Бойцы "Альфы" кладут в багажник минивэна "Фольксваген-транспортер". Там на сиденьях ехали "альфовцы",
а мы вчетвером вот в багажнике. Они нас сковывают наручниками между собой, скидывают туда и везут
на Харьков. Мы уже прекрасно понимаем, что, как, куда.
В Харькове собрали со всей Украины двести с чем-то человек – там что-то типа перевалочного пункта
было. И через Изюм – на Донецк.
"СП": - Что произошло после обмена? Как ты попал в "Призрак"?
- Дальше нас Донецкое МГБ забрало к себе. Все должны были пройти через допросы, чтобы понять,
кто действительно сепаратист, а кто засланный. На следующий день за мной приехали мои товарищи из
комендатуры ЛНР, привезли в Луганск. Там я жил у человека из батальона Дениса Хулигана, первый месяц
приходил в себя, осознавал, что это свобода, круто! Потом
встретился с Женей
Валленбергом, мы с ним были знакомы еще по "Боротьбе". Женя привез меня в Алчевск и говорит:
Не хочешь ко мне в политотдел? Мне нужны в политотделе люди реально идейные, идеологически подкованные!
Я сказал, что подумаю. Подумал, и вот – теперь я тут.
"СП": - А как ты считаешь, почему одесское сопротивление проиграло? Почему в Донбассе получилось,
а у вас нет?
- Мне, честно говоря, даже стыдно отвечать, потому что мне стыдно за Одессу. Там до сих пор процентов
70 нашего народу. Да, там всех запугали. Но тут тоже пытались всех запугивать, арестовывать. Тут
вообще начали людей бомбить…
В Одессе лидеры "Антимайдана" вместо того, чтобы сплотиться, каждый на себя одеяло тянул. Кто-то
какие-то деньги намутил на "Антимайдан" через каких-то волонтеров, и потратил их на себя. Сплоченности
не было. Там была тысяча человек, и полторы тысячи организаций. Полторы тысячи организаций на тысячу
человек! И 2 мая так же получилось. Если бы знали, что будет, могли бы собрать двадцать тысяч человек
и прогнать все это дерьмо из города. А вышло, что вообще никого не собрали. Шанс был, но не воспользовались.
Может быть, не до конца осознавали всю серьезность. Может, сыграл роль менталитет одесситов, отличный
от менталитета донбассцев. Одесситы больше приспособленцы по натуре своей. 2 мая нашим врагам удалось
просто запугать большую часть населения города. С одной стороны, стыд им и позор – бояться глупо!
Но с другой, их понять можно – с камнями против оружия не попрешь…
"СП": - Как ты себе видишь разрешение всей этой ситуации? Видишь ли ты Одессу освобожденной?
- Вижу. Я даже вижу освобожденный Киев…
"СП": - Новороссия должна состояться в границах бывшей Донецкой и Луганской областей? Или в
границах восьми областей? Или вся Украина должна быть освобождена от хунты, и осуществлена "пересборка"
страны?
- Как я уже говорил, в Одессе нас процентов 70 поддерживает. Они сейчас живут, как в оккупации.
Я понимаю, что нельзя их так оставить. Как не оставили в 1941-1945 годах…
Необходима, как ты говоришь, "пересборка" на новых началах. Новороссия - это новое знамя, за которое
поднялось уже много народу, они хотят уже отделиться и сделать свое государство. Но и соседнему государству
– многострадальной Украине, мы просто обязаны помочь избавиться от хунты. И дать людям свободу выбора,
в какой стране жить, чтобы люди могли избрать свою власть. Просто для начала освободить их из-под
оккупации. Наш враг не солдат ВСУ, который стоит напротив в окопе, а киевская хунта, власть олигархов.
Others implicated? There'll be plenty. Not seen hitting anyone, but watching with approval:
Sergei Gutsalyuk, apparently as deputy for NSDC's Andriy Parubiy, who supplied the body armor
seen on some of the worst thugs there. A perp I call "Flagneck" is very identifiable, and seems
to have been put in charge of things ... someone should look him up too (has his own video already
There's Mykola Volkov, seen meeting Parubiy and wearing his vest as he shoots at people (is he
imprisoned, freed, or dead now? Stories differ) Thjs guy - Russia Insider doesn't have the inside
info? Me neither. Seems like a good ID tying a (politician?) directly to personal violence. A
good catch, that should get a proper name ASAP. I'll watch for it, or bring it here if I (an outsider)
find it first.
Why you say "We don't know which version is closer to the truth" - it is proven by dozens of
footages and hundreds of witnesses how it was - orchestrized false flag massacre:
you say "Perhaps this video will be found to be authentic in which case we can
hope the perpetrator will be found and prosecuted -- and if it's true
he's been let go without proper prosecution, then his prosecution should
be sought again."
Please check the facts. there is no IF about it -- it is there on the video. Some people helped
some out of the building, and others immediately started beating them. This particular man was
beating someone who was injured, having fallen from the burning building. He is seen trying to
grab another freshly rescued man until several other people chase him away.
He WAS FOUND and WAS ARRESTED. Then the police let him out after a mob of 50 or more people started
to become threatening outside the police station. there's video of that too. He was not alone,
others arrested were also let go.
There is also video of people outside preparing molotov cocktails hours before (when it was still
daylight) and NONE of any being made inside. Or mterials to do so. There is also video of thugs
sitting on fire truck to prevent it going there to put the fire out.
It is not a matter of saying one side is angels and the other is devils. They all went there to
fight.
BUT it is (a) beating and kicking seriously injured people is criminal (b) using mobs to terrorize
the police into not investigating or charging the criminals is ;;;; what would you call it? mob
rule? .lawlessness? reign of terror? No amount of people rescuing others makes it okay for SOME
to then bash them up.
sirwilliam > KatKan
The west are mostly packed with all criminals who will do and say anything just to start a
war. It does not matter with who because they need to feed on the fear of the people, no matter
who the people are. The Russian people are beautiful people and their leader is the finest ever.
I love Putin because he is a real savior for all people. Everything bad comes from the west. God
Bless Russia.and Putin.for being the man he is. The west is truly corrupt and needs men like Putin
to take out all the trash and believe me there's a lot of it.
Harlan County > sirwilliam •
I am from the west and I have been speaking out about our neocons fomenting regime change and
color revolutions.
Well what this bitch-dispatcher behaves unprofessional and rude is not the main issue. In the end,
the decision to not to send the fire brigade was taken by her superiors. She's just a dumb sheep
in the call center.
But there are more interesting questions. Whether intentional burning of a
building into which people escaped from beating, a crime? Well in any other country (except for the
most rudimentary, primitive) - Yes, of course. If so, what was to be done?
Odessa Katyn is unique in that all this was recorded on dozens of mobile phones, cameras and television
cameras. Much posted on Youtube. To catch all this west-Ukrainian nationalists, touring and other
scum was a matter of technique. Well, for example, faces of those who were filling fire bottles are
available free to access. The faces of those who poured gasoline on the bottles -- as much as you
want. Zoom in, make a sketch, if the image is of poor quality. Declare that these people are criminals.
And hunt for them. And ask for assistance from the population in their identification and capture.
And what was done? NOTHING. Zero. Why?
Because of Odessa it was necessary to INTIMIDATE. And those who refused the investigation,
in General, proved to be right. Today almost left Odessa, ready to provide active resistance galloping
guest performers.
The Ukrainian government (or the junta, if you want) was calculated on help of Right Sector.
Jaining even rank-and-fire member of Right Sector even for serious, heinous crimes is transforming
ally into the enemy. Who will do this?
This is a very bad PR. And American friends were always against this, because they are
extremely sensitive to PR. And now they will tells you what you need to do. Well, for example,
declare "they themselves set fire" or something in similar spirit.
I do not justify actions of man-eater rulers and their American advisors. I just wnat to explain
motivation. I would like to remind that event in Donbass did not started yet. But they see Odessa
event and extrapolate it on on themselves.
The brutality of these neo-Nazis surfaced again on May 2 when
right-wing toughs in Odessa attacked an encampment of ethnic Russian protesters driving them into
a trade union building which was then set on fire with Molotov cocktails. As the building was engulfed
in flames, some people who tried to flee were chased and beaten, while those trapped inside heard
the Ukrainian nationalists liken them to black-and-red-striped potato beetles called Colorados, because
those colors are used in pro-Russian ribbons.
As the fire worsened, those dying inside were serenaded with the taunting singing of the Ukrainian
national anthem. The building also was spray-painted with Swastika-like symbols and graffiti reading
"Galician SS," a reference to the Ukrainian nationalist army that fought alongside the German Nazi
SS in World War II, killing Russians on the eastern front.
The death by fire of dozens of people in Odessa recalled a World War II incident in 1944 when
elements of a Galician SS police regiment took part in the massacre of the Polish village of Huta
Pieniacka, which had been a refuge for Jews and was protected by Russian and Polish partisans. Attacked
by a mixed force of Ukrainian police and German soldiers on Feb. 28, 1944, hundreds of townspeople
were massacred, including many locked in barns that were set ablaze.
The legacy of World War II – especially the bitter fight between Ukrainian nationalists from the
west and ethnic Russians from the east seven decades ago – is never far from the surface in Ukrainian
politics. One of the heroes celebrated during the Maidan protests in Kiev was Nazi collaborator Stepan
Bandera, whose name was honored in many banners including one on a podium where Sen. John McCain
voiced support for the uprising to oust Yanukovych, whose political base was among ethnic Russians
in eastern Ukraine.
During World War II, Bandera headed the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists-B, a radical paramilitary
movement that sought to transform Ukraine into a racially pure state. OUN-B took part in the expulsion
and extermination of thousands of Jews and Poles.
Though most of the Maidan protesters in 2013-14 appeared motivated by anger over political corruption
and by a desire to join the European Union, neo-Nazis made up a significant number and surged to
the front during the seizure of government buildings and the climatic clashes with police.
In the days after the Feb. 22 coup, as the neo-Nazi militias effectively controlled the government,
European and U.S. diplomats scrambled to help the shaken parliament put together the semblance of
a respectable regime, although at least
four ministries, including
national security, were awarded to the right-wing extremists in recognition of their crucial role
in ousting Yanukovych.
As extraordinary as it was for a modern European state to hand ministries over to neo-Nazis, virtually
the entire U.S. news media cooperated in playing down the neo-Nazi role. Stories in the U.S. media
delicately step around this neo-Nazi reality by keeping out relevant context, such as the background
of coup regime's national security chief Andriy Parubiy, who founded the Social-National Party of
Ukraine in 1991, blending radical Ukrainian nationalism with neo-Nazi symbols. Parubiy was commandant
of the Maidan's "self-defense forces."
Last April, as the Kiev regime launched its "anti-terrorist operation" against the ethnic Russians
in the east, Parubiy announced that his right-wing paramilitary forces, incorporated as National
Guard units, would lead the way. On April 15, Parubiy went on Twitter to declare, "Reserve unit of
National Guard formed #Maidan Self-defense volunteers was sent to the front line this morning." (Parubiy
resigned from his post this past week for unexplained reasons.)
Now, however, as the Ukrainian military tightens its noose around the remaining rebel strongholds,
battering them with artillery fire and aerial bombardments, thousands of neo-Nazi militia members
are again pressing to the front as fiercely motivated fighters determined to kill as many ethnic
Russians as they can. It is a remarkable story but one that the mainstream U.S. news media would
prefer not to notice.
Investigative reporter Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories for The Associated
Press and Newsweek in the 1980s. You can buy his new book, America's Stolen Narrative, either
in
print here or as an e-book (from
Amazon and
barnesandnoble.com). For a limited time, you also can order Robert Parry's trilogy on the Bush
Family and its connections to various right-wing operatives for only $34. The trilogy includes
America's Stolen Narrative. For details on this offer,
click
here.
Joe Tedesky on August 10, 2014 at 12:11 pm
Ernst Julius Günther Röhm, and his Sturmabteilung had a shelve life that expired in 1934. I
think someone wrote in the comment section here a while back how the Ukraine bully's would probably
meet the same fate as Rohm. Could the NYT be a prelude to us witnessing the end of these thugs.
Let's hope so.
fosforos, on August 10, 2014 at 1:32 pm
What followed Rohm was much worse. Let's hope that you're wrong.
Joe Tedesky, on August 10, 2014 at 3:08 pm
Let's put it this way, if I were any of those guys I would not book a room at any hotel for
a party meeting!
Jacob, on August 10, 2014 at 8:27 pm
Ernst Roehm was the leader of the socialist faction within the Nazi party. Thus, initially,
the presence of party socialists, who appealed to Germany's middle class, is where the name National
Socialist came from. The SA, of which Roehm was the leader, had about 3 million men and thus he
was perceived to be a potential threat to Hitler's leadership of the Nazi party. Hitler's capitalist
big business supporters (e.g. Kirdorf, Krupp, Voegler, Thyssen) disliked Roehm's socialistic views
on the economy and his claims, typical of socialists, that the real revolution was still to come;
thus, they wanted Hitler to get rid of him. So, after Roehm was eliminated, the only socialism
in the Nazi party was socialism for big business – in the form of corporatism.
Bob- Thanks for another great article and for hammering the Times on a very important point
that the West and its mainstream media have consistently ignored, downplayed, and have even accused
Russia of trying to manufacture or conflate.
Kramer also fails to add that the Azov militia is Oleg Kolomoyski's private army, or that,
while the Ukrainian army may 'feel emboldened'- reports are that they are getting desperately
needed US and NATO technical help and supplies (e.g.- a recent shipment by the Canadian government
to Kharkov), and that NATO troops are present in increasing numbers to help Ukrainian Army that
already greatly outnumbers the resistance in manpower and equipment- it is also reported from
the Donbass side that the freedom fighters are defeating the junta forces when they engage, resulting
in large numbers of junta casualties, and the capture of large caches of equipment, and also that
they have been otherwise squeezing the junta forces in encirclements (cauldrons) and that already
hundreds of Ukrainian soldiers have surrendered with many seeking to resettle in Russia. This
is in contrast to U.S. claims that the Russians are supplying junta forces, which is more consistent
with the West's positive spin that Kiev is winning and the resistance is only surviving through
the efforts of Russia). Even in the Ukrainian media there are reports of widespread losses and
discontent among the soldiers about the their lack of adequate preparation, supplies and ordinance,
and the incompetence of the military leadership. So, the Times, to its disgrace is peddling yet
another skewed and misleading narrative.
Great article and I totally respect Robert Parrish's professionalism, but even more historical
context would not, I think, tarnish that professionalism. I'm thinking of the research that has
been done on the ties that have existed between our intelligence agencies, the Gehlen Group that
we signed on after they left Hitler's employ for Great Britain's, and the continuing ties between
Ukrainian nationalists and our government's anti-communist crusade. A stopover on the subject
of Operation Gladio would be a worthwhile detour also. I was impressed by "America's Nazi Secrets"
by former DOJ Nazi prosecutor John Loftus.
Somebody mentioned Ernst Roehm, so I'll take that topic as fair game. This is a difficult needle
to thread, but if you sift through the haystack long enough, it's impossible to ignore.
Roehm, the Strasser brothers (Otto and Gregor), Kurt Luedecke, Ernst Hanfstaengl and even to
an extent Hess represented what might be called the "left wing" or "socialist" leg of the National
Socialist movement. The Strassers were sympathetic to Bolshevism, and they along with Roehm believed
the "revolution needed to continue" in order to advance socialist principles and improve the lot
of common people. Don't get me wrong – they were just as looney as the rest of the gang – but
they didn't come close to the distilled evil represented by the cloistered masterminds. They were
the foot-soldiers, and most of what was known about the mass psychosis of the inner circle is
owed to the fact that Otto, Ernst and Kurt escaped. Self preservation more than honesty no doubt
prevailed, but they painted a gruesome enough picture.
As it turned out, the picture they painted wasn't near gruesome enough. Today in Ukraine, typical
of such movements, Parry is revealing the distasteful truth about the foot-soldiers.
Eventually, we'll have to confront horrors which dwarf what we know now. Functioning after
the war as a kind of "stay-behind" Gladio operation, the OUN and international support groups
such as UCCA masterminded as many as 30,000 political assassinations inside USSR. As a closed
society, that reality was carefully guarded. As I've mentioned, sooner or later the masterminds
will begin exporting some of their less desirable commodities. MH-17 was "previews of coming attractions".
Pillar mentions the "difficulty of mustering international support for enforcement of a standard
if one appears to be flouting it elsewhere". That's kind of like bombing Tripoli because Gaddafi
was threatening civilians in Benghazi. Russia would wisely introduce R2P, but Susan Rice will
staunchly object. She's OK with the happy couple. Just wait till she "meets the in-laws".
Mr. Parry: Is there any evidence the Obama Administration's open support of the Ukrainian neo-Nazis
and its implicit support-by-tolerance of U.S. hard-right militias are each manifestations of some
new federal policy of brazen, across-the-board alignment with violently reactionary forces everywhere?
If so, could this be a prelude to a public declaration of overtly fascist governance - no doubt
euphemized as "patriotic Christianity" or something similar - here at home?
(Obviously the U.S. government has, in its role as capitalism's goon squad, always favored
fascism abroad, if only because fascism and/or Nazism are the ultimate forms of capitalism - the
logical end results of capitalism's Ayn Rand ideology. But in the past, the U.S. downplayed these
realities abroad and, domestically, generally appeared to regard members of the armed right as
public enemies, hence the events at, for example, Ruby Ridge and Waco. Now however under Obama,
the message of the Bundy Ranch incident seems to be that even the domestic pretense of opposition
to storm-trooper elements is being dropped. Which raises questions hitherto unthinkable: is the
government, now openly allied with neo-Nazis abroad, also clandestinely seeking the U.S. hard-right
militias as allies? Could this indeed be preparation for some final putsch to eliminate the few
remaining vestiges of constitutional governance? )
The observation that Obama and his maladministration continue to support in every way the violence,
illegality and lies of the Netanyahu régime make it clear that he is determined to exceed the
misdeeds of his predecessor in a spectacular way. Ukraine, Colombia, Honduras, "good" Syrian rebels,
Libyan chaos-any interference will do.
As to illustrate a common Ukrainian sense of mentality, there's a cafe in Kiev with a macabre
(or 'creative') menu, serving – I quote – 'Colorado Bugs Fried a la Odessa' (!)
You can dismiss the 'Praviy Sektor' (many often misleadingly do), but it's not about Muzichko
or Yarosh or The Right Sector, or even 'Svoboda' – as not being very popular – but it's also about
Azov, it's about the far-right parliament member Oleg Lyashko, recently 'black listed' by Amnesty
International, who has collected 8.3% of the presidential votes and his 'Radical Party' (yes,
that's the official name) who, at the moment, are the political frontrunners according to some
polls, more popular than Timoshenko's and Yatsenyuk's 'Batkivshchina'.
@ Loren Bliss re: Ayn Rand – Years ago, I came across an out-of-print book in a used bookstore.
It's been misplaced, but I'd recognize the author if I saw his name. As I recall, he was a French
political exile.
In addition to all Hitler's speeches between 1933 and 1941, he included significant press excerpts
released by major Western news services following each speech. Virtually every one glad-handed
and soft-soaped Hitler as a rational actor serving reasonable German national interests. They
referred to him frequently as, "the German statesman". Behaving as a completely spineless and
self serving tool of corporate interests is not a new phenomenon for them.
There have only ever been a handful of real correspondents. George Seldes, Robert Fisk, John
Pilger, Richard Hottelet, William Shirer, Martha Gellhorn, Peter Arnett, and of course, Robert
Parry would all qualify. Anderson Cooper and Christiane Amanpour are not journalists; they'r political
hacks. But, I digress.
The other interesting thing I learned was the source from which Ayn Rand PLAGIARIZED or PARAPHRASED
all her work. ALL of it. Every self-serving rhetorical greed infested line of prose or twisted
reasoning has a mirror image somewhere in passages from those speeches. She superimposed them
on low-minded soap opera plots and sold it as original work.
It should come as no surprise that Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilley think it's
terrific stuff. Ayn was so bitter that the Bolsheviks appropriated her family's wealth that she
was willing to take up the Nazi mantle, but her admirers are not likely to ever admit that.
Unfortunately the prominent role of the neo-Nazis in Ukraine is also ignored in the European
media. The only reference to Nazis that most people will see is a comparison between Putin and
Hitler. The media is just reflecting the consensus that is shared by politicians, even those who
are considered to be left of centre and opposed to intolerance.
There have been a few times however when the Nazi-worshipping ideology gets some coverage.
A TV program (sorry only in German
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW4xvuYTi7w)
showed an interview with the Ukrainian education minister Serhiy Kvit praising Bandera and also
a group of school children being taught that Bandera was a role model (of course they play down
his Nazi collaboration). Serhiy Kvit is a member of the Bandera's Trident organisation which is
closely linked to the Right Sector.
One thing leads to the next.
American corporate MSM hammers the propaganda to make the coup that overthrew an elected President
seem like no big deal, White Hats triumphing over Black Hats.
Then, when a faction of this neo-Nazi infested Government shoots down a commercial airliner,
and commits war crimes against civilians in the East, and constantly lies about "Russian provocations"
to try to get more military assistance from the US and her client states, American citizens barely
hear about it, don't believe it, think "neo-Nazi" is just a slogan that must come from Moscow
"propaganda".
The "news" is a constant battlefield of American propaganda – what they win one week from "hearts
and minds" is used the next week, and the next, and the next to construct the next story, or the
next chapter of an ongoing story, or the next round of sanctions, or the next war.
Kolomoisky's battalion is "dniepro". The head of the azov battlion is Andriy Belitsky w
ho also leads the Social-National Assembly of Ukr., whose ideology is, guess what: National Socialism.
Their flag is a wulfsangel w/lions. In addition, he is the head of Patriots of Ukr, the paramilitary
branch of the SNA, flag: wulfsangel.
Besides being neo-nazi nationalists committed to violence, they are white supremacists. They
have supposedly recruited prominent Swedish nazi, white supremacists to help w/ the slaughter.
The video that links to the NYT story is mischaracterized by Kramer. Oddly, at 7:23 a male voice
is heard saying, "Run!, Run!, Run!" in American accented English. ?
I forgot to say, Kravchuk is Marchuk's real name. This article is a mere crack in the monolith
of disinformation. If they ever openly acknowledge the role played by nazis it will probably mean
that the whole project is becoming too expensive to continue.
In my search for independent, objective information, I've been reading the daily press releases
from the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) special monitoring mission
to Ukraine (SSM). MSM have quoted them selectively – or in some glaring cases misquoted them –
primarily in articles about the inspection of the MH 17 crash site.
However, the OSCE briefings contain a lot more info. One might think they'd be biased toward
EU interests, but they actually seem to be pretty objective, and they are there on the ground,
doing what reporters should be doing.
Here are a couple of excerpts that support Bob's reporting above:
From August 5 briefing: http://www.osce.org/ukraine/122446 The mayor of Velykomykhailivka (165km southeast of Dnepropetrovsk city) told the SMM that
Right Sector activists, based in a training camp at a village close to the boundary with the Donetsk
region, had been harassing local people. He alleged that some of the activists, sometimes drunk,
had specifically fired shots in the air, stolen vehicles at checkpoints manned by them, and had
entered houses, and intimidated women. The police, he said, were powerless to act, and the authorities,
at a higher level, were doing nothing to stop this behaviour. Similar allegations were made by
local inhabitants in mid-July.
From August 8 briefing: http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/122495 Two senior officials from Luhansk City Administration and from SBU corroborated an account
given to the SMM that the mayor of Luhansk had been detained in Shchastya (23km north of Luhansk)
by members of the voluntary Aidar Battalion, fighting with the Ukrainian army against the 'LPR'.
The shelling of Donetsk continued. The SMM visited two high-rise residential
buildings and a local hospital in the city centre, showing damage consistent with the use of artillery
projectiles; and saw traumatised and crying civilians and medical staff (see SMM Report evening
of 7 August). The scene was photographed by SMM.
If I'm not mistaken, a "terrorist" is someone who terrorizes. It sure sounds like the people
of eastern Ukraine are being terrorized by these drunken neo-Nazi "activists," self-styled militia
on the side of the coup-led government, and the Ukrainian military itself.
The CIA Allen Dulles post war anti-Soviet "captive nations" apparatus was based upon protection
of these fascists in Ukraine and many other countries. Now NATO is openly arming them. If you
know this history that is not surprising. Chapter 5 of "Hitler's Shadow" deals with this CIA collaboration
in Ukraine, but the whole book is well worth reading on the unknown history swept under NATO's
rug. http://www.archives.gov/iwg/reports/hitlers-shadow.pdf
First of all I'd like to complement everyone on the high quality of the comments made above.
I've learned a tremendous amount simply by reading the article and your comments. Secondly,
I'd like to ask anyone if they know any more about the 'filtration camps' that were raised some
time ago and have since dropped out of sight. My concern is that with the right Sector or extreme-nationalist
volunteers manning the front line in front of regular Ukrainian Army artillery, there will be
outright massacres and mss deportations once the advancing front line has overrun Donestk and
Lugansk. Those Russian speakers who were unable to get away may end up in the 'concentration camps'
operated by the factions in Kiev. My other concern is that if such 'pogroms' start Putin may be
driven to send in forces to rescue them, thereby giving the Americans a pretext for rampling up
a general war between NATO and Russia. Again, great, intelligent postings.Let's have more.
PS I have just finished "Alliance For Murder" edited by B.F.Sabrin, which is subtitled "The
Nazi-Ukrainian Nationalist Partnership in Genocide". Uneven, but excellent in parts.
The self-censorship that Robert Parry observes in the U.S. media is in play big time in Canada.
The role of fascist and far-right militias and political movements in Kyiv's war in southeast
Ukraine is absent from mainstream media, as is the horror of the bombings and shellings of civilian
populations by the army and its allied militias.
Yesterday, Canada's Globe and Mail national daily editorialized in favour of the aggressive,
NATO posture that wants Russia to forget about domestic public opinion and let the slaughter in
eastern Ukraine continue unabated. In remarkably frank language, the Globe editors say that Russia
should be given some space to back away in order that "we" may win want "we" want–a pliant, "independent"
Ukraine. The Canadian government is backing its words with action–last week, it shipped $5 million
in "non-lethal" military equipment to Ukraine and it is pledging more. It is running to catch
up with the $31 million in assistance being provided by Washington, plus the $19 million now pledged
to train Ukraine's National Guard.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/editorials/putin-has-trapped-himself-in-a-quagmire-of-his-own-making/article19969244/#dashboard/follows/
The progressive Toronto Star columnist Thomas Walkom made a rare foray for a Canadian columnist
into the subject of the Ukraine war in his column yesterday. Unfortunately, he repeats a lot of
the misinformation and outright falsehoods about events over the past months, so his welcome,
cautionary note about the folly of Canada backing Kyiv's war gets lost.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/08/08/canadian_military_aid_adds_more_fuel_to_ukraine_crisis_walkom.html
A Guardian writer, meanwhile, mused on Aug 5 about what will happen when the fascist and rightist
militias being armed to the teeth by Kyiv and NATO return home from the battlefront. He wrote:
The proliferation of these battalions also poses important questions for the postwar settlement,
and Poroshenko will need to find a way to integrate the groups either into the army or back into
civilian life when the conflict in the east is over.
"A new Maidan could pose a danger to the very nature of Ukrainian statehood, and of course
there will be a major issue about what happens to all of these volunteer battalions when they
return from the east. They are heavily armed, and many have links to oligarchs or political forces,"
says Fesenko. On Monday, there was an early warning of what could be to come, when the Kiev-1
battalion, back from the front, raided a cafe in central Kiev in order to evict other activists
who had allegedly taken it over. (End quote.)
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/05/ukraine-revolution-dream-stalling-war-east
"Could the NYT be a prelude to us witnessing the end of these thugs. Let's hope so." Joe Tedesky
on August 10, 2014 at 12:11 pm .
Wishful thinking Joe as the NYT has been a constant neocon promoter .
.
BTW as for the phone evidence one should be highly suspicious because of the "Trojan" which is
a special communication device that could be planted by commandos deep inside enemy territory.
The device would act as a relay station for misleading transmissions made by the disinformation
unit in the Mossad, called LAP, and intended to be received by American and British listening
stations.
Remember Lybia ?
Originating from a distant IDF control center , the prerecorded digital transmissions could
be picked up only by the Trojan. The device would then rebroadcast the transmission on another
frequency, one used for official business in the "enemy country", at which point the transmission
would finally be picked up by American ears in Britain.
Hillary, that was an interesting link. I will need to go online and buy that book.
Yeah, maybe my take on the NYT article is wishful thinking. Although, there does seem to be
many moving parts whirling around within the Ukraine junta. Revolutions always tend to create
a certain kind of who's in, and who's out kind of atmosphere. Add to that, how things are not
what they always seem to be.
Always good to read your comments, and I find your reference links some of the best to read…take
care J.T.
Who supports these Nazis? Kiev is broke? History repeats itself…Ford Motor enthusiastically
supported the Reich, but resisted calls from Roosevelt and Churchill to increase war production
for the Allies.
GM collected $33 million in "war reparations" because the Allies had bombed its German facilities.
Senior executives for GM, Ford and Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, received the Grand Cross of
the German Eagle:
, проведённой в Севастополе
из взятых образцов в здании профсоюзов в гор. Одесса, после событий 2 мая 2014 г. В лаборатории судэкспертизы
города Севастополя провели анализ образцов.
Сейчас в Одессе делается все, чтобы "Одесская Хатынь" была забыта.
Вернее, не забыта (такое не забывается), но подана в нужном хунте и гауляйтеру Бене виде.
Хрен у них получится.
Правда все равно вылезает из-под бетона фашистской пропаганды, - и обязательно
прозвучит на суде.
Полученные образцы из дома профсоюза Одессы, при химическом анализе и спектроанализе, показали следы
белого фосфора. Видимо применялась дымовая граната М15 производства США. При воздействии одежда остается
нетронутой, а открытые участки кожи чернеют (обугливаются) и даже может прожигать до костей. Что
и наблюдалось на снимках жертв. Вывод: 100% хунтой было применёно химическое оружие. То же самое
америкосы применяли в Ираке. Очевидцы говорили, что слышен был хлопок и белый дым. Как раз так она
и работает.
Видео и снимки с места происшествия ещё раз доказывают это. Отсутствие обгоревшей одежды на трупах,
чёрный цвет открытых участков тела (рук и головы). Шутки молодчиков про "негров".
Время воздействия
белого фосфора приблизительно 60 секунд. Радиус действия гранаты 20 метров. Граната была заброшена
после поджога и горения центрального входа. В результате горения нижнего этажа, создалась тяга вдоль
колесничного подъёма, по которому спасаясь поднимались вверх люди, что и повлияло на зону поражения.
Многие, кто находился на данном участке погиб в течении минуты. При вдохе белого фосфора происходит
спазм дыхательных путей, за счёт резкого обжига с последующим летальным исходом.
Так же, есть записи очевидцев, спасавшихся в кабинетах, что они видели как из под дверей в комнату
поступал жёлто-зелённый дым, который тоже вызывал удушье. В данных случаях применялся хлор в ампулах.
Ампулы были найдены после.
Обратите внимание на труппы, которые там имеют схожее положение. Когда лежит на спине, а руки
как бы стоят вверх. Точно такие позы занимают трупы на снимках и в доме профсоюзов Одессы.
На двух последних фото видна специфическая поза. В такой позе умирает человек от резкого удушья
при воздействии б.фосфора.
Доказательств много и на лицо применение химического оружия, что запрещено международной конвенцией.
Сегодня дом профсоюзов огородили забором и начаты ремонтные работы. Это не что иное как уничтожение
улик. Они начали полностью снимать штукатурку, демонтируют полы и производят дезактивацию спецсредствами,
для того чтобы скрыть правду.
Просим вас неоднократно донести эту правду до массового зрителя. Потому, что если это скрыть, то
завтра будет применяться это же химическое оружие и против населения в ДНР и ЛНР.
Прошу прислать подтверждение о получении данной информации вами.
С уважением, Александр Фильченко.
Севастополь.
Насчёт гранат М15 сомневаюсь. Скорее всего, когда готовились, были привлечены химики. Чисто чтобы
делать коктейли Молотова и взрывпакеты с повышенной эффективностью. Для химика достать в непромышленных
масштабах фосфор вполне по силам.
Похоже на газетную утку.
То что, применялся какой то газ либо химикаты однозначно, но навряд ли в виде фосфорных гранат.
Если пошарить в интернете, то пишут, что граната М-12 при взрыве дает температуру более 2500С.
Значит все кругом должно выгорать и плавится. А как же неповрежденные деревянные детали вокруг
обугленных тел? И на тех же фото из статьи - есть люди у кого сгоревшая исключительно голова и
кисти рук. Что за избирательность гранаты?? В более ранних изысканиях на эту тему объяснялось
более логично - поджигали голову зажигательной смесью типа напалма, пытались тушить руками - оттого
сгоревшие кисти.
Дело то ведь в том, что погибло множество людей именно не из за пожара, а были забиты насмерть
битами, зарублены, застрелены,а затем уже подожжены, чтобы имитировать смерть от угорания.
Зачем здесь например фото Гены Кушнарева (в полосатой кофте)? Он был застрелен, в области поясницы,
потому майдауны потом перевернули тело на спину, одели бронежилет и потом уже закончили свое гнусное
дело -подожгли голову.
Может был и фосфор, может быть. Но надо очень внимательно подходить к сбору фактов и к тому,
как представлять эту информацию. "Разоблачение российских фейков" - это новая отрасль работы укро-
СМИ. Не будем давать им козырей лишних в руки.
Несколько замечаний/вопросов от занудного биохимика.
1. "Полученные образцы … показали следы белого фосфора"
Что именно обнаружила экспертиза? Через несколько часов после применения белого фосфора в окружающей
среде не остается, он самопроизвольно окисляется (даже возгорается) на воздухе. "Химическими и
спектральными" методами можно зарегистрировать повышенное содержание фосфора как химического элемента
- в виде оксидов, фосфатов, других соединений. Допустим, зафиксировали. Откуда уверенность, что
повышенная концентрация именно от сгорания белого фосфора, а не (например) от фосфорорганических
отравляющих веществ (ФОВ http: //www. medkursor. ru/ biblioteka /poisoning /military/3812. html)?
2. "Обратите внимание на труппы, которые там имеют схожее положение. Когда лежит на спине, а руки
как бы стоят вверх"
Такое положение напоминает клонико-тонические судороги и характерно именно при отравлении ФОВ
нервно-паралитического действия, см. видео применения VX в Сирии, с 15 сек https : // www . youtube
. com / watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ix1vtepgpB8 .
3. "При воздействии.. открытые участки кожи чернеют (обугливаются) и даже может прожигать до костей"
Да. Хотя, на фотографиях больше следов копоти, чем обугливания (например, равномерный слой не
только на коже, но и на стёклах очков – стекло не может обугливаться!) В случае же применения
боеприпасов, содержащих белый фосфор, ожоги очень характерные. Где попадают крупицы фосфора, должны
наблюдаться "выжженные язвы". Примерно так http : // shayunbiqalbi. wordpress. com /2010 /12/13/
white-phosphorus-burn/ . Вопрос к тем, кто осматривал тела пострадавших: такие следы были?
4. "Они начали полностью снимать штукатурку, демонтируют полы и производят дезактивацию спецсредствами"
После применения белого фосфора, особенно через несколько дней (тем более недель!) никакой
дезактивации не требуется. Максимум что останется – следы как от пролитой кока-колы (~0,2% раствор
фосфорной кислоты). А вот в случае стойких ОВ (к которым относятся ФОВ) – как раз дезактивация
нужна.
Какой вывод? Применение ОВ имело место, однако не факт, что это был белый фосфор (и уж совсем
нелепо – хлор или хлороформ). ИМХО, это была фосфорорганика. В то же время какие-то дымовые
гранаты применялись - я смотрел 02 мая онлайн стрим канала O1 и видел, как боец приводит в действие
и забрасывает в здание зелёную армейскую дымовую шашку. Кто может найти запись этого видео – посмотрите
маркировку на корпусе. А с остальным надо ещё разбираться.
Thiose are "offocial" results of investigation of junta. MK is a stalvrt of the liberast camp media
in Russia. Also if a founder of Social National Party of Ukraine said something this is probably
a lie. One interesting detail: "Local activists have noted that it could be a provocateur. In the media
there were indications that it could be a powerful opioid karfentanile used as an anesthetic for large
animals. Officials did not comment on karfentanile"
Earlier, the investigation stated that the House of Trade Unions during the tragedy of May 2 was
used hazardous chemicals. SBU also stated that the building was found an unknown substance, which
was sent on international expertise. While there is no information on this matter has been submitted.
Head of the Odessa Regional Bureau forensic Gregory Krivda, said only that 20 people were killed
on May 2 in Odessa, gas poisoning, smoke and fumes that same unknown substance.
According to him, nine people were killed due to carbon monoxide poisoning, and two died in the
hospital due to severe body burns, three - because of severe burns to the respiratory tract and body.
"Another five people - burns of the respiratory tract of the body in combination with unspecified
poisoning gases and combustion products. Burns of the respiratory tract in combination with unspecified
poisoning gases - one person. The largest group - Poisoning unspecified gases, fumes, vapors - 14
people "- quoted Krivda RIA" Novosti ".
According to him, six people died from gunshot wounds he received in the city center, two died
during riots in the House of Trade Unions has not yet been identified.
Injustice also clarified that the experts conducted a study of all the dead bodies for drugs and
medicines - nowhere drugs and drugs were found.
Head examination emphasized that none of the 48 fatalities died of injuries that could testify
about the beatings.
Earlier, the head of the Security Service of Ukraine Valentyn Nalyvaychenko confirmed that in
the House of Trade Unions in the fire were used to an unknown substance. According to one of the
parliamentary deputies from the party "BLOW" intelligence services know the name of the man who brought
him to Odessa. Local activists have noted that it could be a provocateur.
In the media there were indications that it could be a powerful opioid karfentanile used as an anesthetic
for large animals. Officials did not comment on karfentanile.
Later, Deputy Interior Minister of Ukraine announced that investigators found in garbage and soot
withdrawn in the House of Trade Unions after the fire, traces of chloroform. Inhalation of large
amounts of human substance leads to respiratory arrest that allegedly occurred during the fire -
found that 32 people were killed by high temperatures, and of an unknown substance. How the substance
appeared in the House of Trade Unions, is now investigated.
However, Russian experts doubted that chloroform could cause the death of so many people. In order
for dozens of people, even indoors to be poisoned to death by this substance, "it must be poured
into the extremely large quantities - many dozens, if not hundreds of gallons."
The monitoring mission of the office of the UN high Commissioner for human rights (OHCHR) said
that the interior Ministry and the security Service of Ukraine does not work with experts of the
world organization in the investigation of the tragedy in Odessa, reports ITAR-TASS with reference
to the third report of the mission of the OHCHR.
It is noted that there remain a number of issues still require clarification.
"It is regrettable that the mission reports lack of cooperation by the two main agencies (leading
the investigation - the interior Ministry and SBU). This position does not give the mission a chance
to give his own assessment of the progress achieved", - the report says.
The UN report it is informed that since the beginning of the military operations of the Ukrainian
army in Donetsk and Lugansk regions were killed 386 people.
Previous UN report on Ukraine, the Russian foreign Ministry considered it as a political order
to whitewash of Kiev.
Part 1: There was an comment about a article in zerohedge( "Gruesome Footage Of ISIS Atrocities
Reveals Al Qaeda Jihadists "Will Stop At Nothing") which I wish to comment on. If some one think
that does pictures are gruesome, they should wake up to the reality of Novorussia. Shame to all
those who support this genocide (and genocide in Iraq, Afghanistan, Lybia + + + + +). When will
enough be enough? I am so disappointed in humanity.
This are my thoughts about what happend. It took place a false flag operation where footbal
hooligans and maidan activists (visitors) met pro-Russian (anti - government) activists. There
was a third group (mercenaries / assassins, Right sector), who pretended that they were anti-governments
and activists who hit both groups to create chaos. This group conspired directly with the police
and the security officers in the city. Another group had the task of getting people (the elderly,
women and men, children who demonstrated the) outside the union building to escape into the building.
On the outside was the first group (those who would wreak havoc in both camps) and threw firebombs
at the building and shot or beaten up (some were killed) those who tried to escape the building.
Into the building there was a death group, which had the task to turn off the water in the
building (so no one could attempt to extinguish the fire they started), and kill all the people
they found. The killers used basketball clubs, guns, knives, shovels, axes, and machette knife,
poisonous gas, and what may look like a flamethrower (unsure). Many women were raped and later
set on fire. Some were also strangled. These bands of criminals (right sector + +) was probably
influenced by drugs, because rumour is that they carved out of human flesh from corpses and ate
it. Many were tortured to death.
http://vk.com/videos250820024?section=al
l ( Further down the page there is a video of someone who gets leg cut off. Could be misinformation.)
Contrary to what the mainstream media has tried to convince you, it's not at all a mystery how
the fire started in Odessa, Ukraine and it's not at all a mystery who started it. We owe it to the
victims to expose what really happened.
It isn't too surprising that the US refuses to even look into the fact that the government in
Kiev is responsible for committing atrocities against civilians in eastern Ukraine, said Michael
Hughes, a Washington D.C.-based journalist and foreign policy analyst.
"The administration and State Department continue to redefine reality on the ground to justify
their actions in installing a fascist-dominated regime," Hughes told RIA Novosti Monday.
"In addition, they are adhering to the narrative that Russia is behind all of the instability
in order to implement counterproductive sanctions against key Russian officials," he asserted.
Despite the calls of the new Ukrainian president for a ceasefire, the Ukrainian army continues
to shell the cities in Eastern Ukraine.
Kiev authorities have been conducting this special military operation in the Eastern Ukraine to
suppress the pro-independence movement since mid-April. The violence intensified after the Luhansk
and Donetsk People's Republics declared independence from Ukraine in May. Hundreds have died in both
regions over the past months.
The new round of violence in Eastern Ukraine is in contradiction with Petro Poroshenko's promise
to end violence, says American journalist in France, Diana Johnstone.
"Obviously, ongoing military assaults on Slaviansk are in total contradiction with Mr Poroshenko's
promise to end violence," Johnstone told RIA Novosti in response to reports of Ukrainian army shelling
resuming in Slaviansk.
"The die has been cast and Russophobes in Washington have won out, yet again, and are steering
American policy. So we can expect the government and American media to downplay the mess we've made
all because we chose to interfere in a region in which we have no legitimate interests," Hughes concluded.
"None of those who committed and commit crimes in the South-East of Ukraine will get away from the
deserved retribution. We'll get them even, as stated in the Declaration of 1943 the allied States,
even from the bottom of the ocean, and they will sooner or later, face the moral, political, and
criminal responsibility for the acts that they commit today against the people of Ukraine", - quotes
ITAR-TASS statement Bastrykin during his speech at a meeting of the Foundation for military leaders
and naval commanders on the occasion of the 120th anniversary of Marshal Fedor Ivanovich Tolbukhin.
The head of the Investigative Committee opened a criminal case on the facts of crimes of an international
nature in the South-East of Ukraine and created a special Department for investigation.
"We will be guided not only criminal law but the norms of international law, which gives us the
legal and moral right to pursue every member of the Ukrainian army, every commander, every commander,
if you can call it generals and officers of the tanks and installations "Hailstones" firing on civilians,"
said Bastrykin.
"This is an unprecedented event in the history of the wars of man, when the aircraft bombed hospitals,
children's and maternity hospitals, civilians only for the fact that people want to be heard, I want
to Express their opinion about what is happening regarding the future of themselves and their children
and grandchildren," he stressed.
He also reminded that Russia has initiated a number of criminal cases, including against the head
of the organization "Right branch" Dmitry Yarosh (and "he declared in the international search"),
as well as against members of UNA-UNSO.
"Depending on the role of each of them, they are suspected of committing crimes, envisaged not only
criminal law but the norms of international law". In particular, noticed Bastrykin, "conclusively
established "that a number of these persons participated in combat actions during the events in Chechnya
on the side of the militants.
"These facts are documented. But this is only the beginning of the history of the investigation.
Today we document, including by means of space technology, everything that happens in Ukraine. Together
with special services and law enforcement authorities, we will work as long as each from the ordinary
soldier of the Ukrainian army and to top executives, including Avakov, will not appear before international
justice," said Bastrykin.
Recall that on 4 June it became known that the Investigative Committee of Russia created special
unit for investigation of crimes of an international character against civilians, committed on the
territory of Ukraine.
The office already investigated a number of criminal cases involving crimes against the Ukrainian
and Russian citizens on the territory of Ukraine. In particular, the investigated criminal cases
against members of UNA-UNSO - Mazur, Period, Yarosha, Korchinsky, brothers Tyagnibok, Hominy and
others, on the fact of the injured Russian journalist Russia Today, Ukraine and others.
In addition, the Investigative Committee of Russia intends to receive from independent sources
data from satellites of different countries, showing the pattern of destruction, their number and
locations of the Ukrainian military formations.
With regard to persons involved in crimes against the civilian population, the IC of Russia intends
to bring to criminal responsibility to both the government officials and the military commanders
is directly involved in punitive operations, as well as to persons who gave orders and funding to
killings of civilians. In this regard, the Investigative Committee of Russia intends to give a legal
assessment of the actions Arsen Avakov, Igor Kolomoisky and other.
All involved in the death of people in Odessa and in other crimes against civilians in Ukraine must
appear before the Hague Tribunal. This was the statement Deputy Secretary of the Public chamber of
the Russian Federation Vladislav Grib made may 6 at the press conference in Moscow.
"Russia will
insist and Turchynov, and Yatsenyuk, and the Governor of Odessa region were in the dock, " he said.
- We remember Tribunal for Yugoslavia, there is more than enough [facts]. Russia should do this,
and we're going to demand this from Russian authorities".
The appropriate appeal is being prepared by the lawyers of the Public chamber, said Deputy head
of the coordinating headquarters OP the Russian Federation on assistance to the residents of Ukraine
Georgiy Fedorov. According to him, at present a list of the sacrament as to Odessa tragedy, and other
acts of violence and violations of human rights in Ukraine, and in the list will include not only
the leaders of the Kiev junta, but petty officials, implicated in crimes against humanity. Fedorov
sure that appeal to international institutions should be regarded as a humiliation to the West. "We
should work on other platforms, to use all the tools - diplomatic, legal, humanitarian and other,
- he said. - We will break through the information blockade, to use every opportunity to attack this
mode".
In the world there are countries that understand what is actually happening in Ukraine, added
Vladislav Grib, for example, Serbia and China are among them. Russia could bring the facts
about the crimes of the Kyiv to the world community. "We don't want to be in isolation, we
are looking for allies, " he said. - We are not referring to the Ukrainian junta, we want people
in Europe, all policical organization learned about this. For that all these facts were translated
into major European and world languages".
Lawyers of the Public chamber of the Russian Federation are working on request and a list of the
perpetrators with the utmost care so hat the documents were not rejected on formal grounds by aligned
with NATO European structures.. According to Georgiy Fedorovhim, the appeal will be handed over to
the Russian authorities in the coming weeks.
Let's remind, the press conference of the members of the Public chamber of the Russian Federation
on the situation in Ukraine was held in Moscow on 6 may. It was also attended by journalists, political
scientists, sociologists and civil activists from Odessa and Kharkiv, who told about the situation
in the southern and Eastern areas of Ukraine, where, according to them, there is a real war, unleashed
a self-proclaimed Kiev authorities against their own people.
Parubiy is a bird from Nuland's nest, former Yuschchenko honcho, instrumental in bringing Yushchenko
to power as well as bringing to power the current junta.
Protest was help in front of the building of the General Prosecutor's in Kiev. Protesters
demanded the prompt investigation of resonant criminal cases. A group of residents of the capital
required impartially to investigate the massacre on the Maidan and the burning of people in Odessa.
About three dozen of people participate.. According to them, the law enforcement covers
those who ordered those horrible crimes - Igor Kolomoisky and Andrew Parubiy.
"An objective investigation no, although involvement in Odessa tragedy Kolomoisky said the former
Governor of Odessa Vladimir Nemirovskiy," says Darya, the organizer of the rally.
Earlier, ex-Chairman of the Odessa police Dmitry Fuchedzhi accused of involvement in Odessa tragedy
the current head of the NSDC Andrew Parubiy.
Причиной трагедии в Одессе могло быть применение запрещенных отравляющих веществ
23 мая 2014, 19:30
Фото: Reuters
Текст: Андрей Резчиков
Погибшие в Доме профсоюзов в Одессе могли отравиться хлорпикрином – сильнодействующим ядом,
который применялся во время Первой мировой войны. К такому выводу пришли российские эксперты. Теперь
члены Общественной палаты намерены обратиться к МИДу, чтобы расследованием трагических событий в
Одессе занялась Организация по запрещению химического оружия.
Российские эксперты считают, что погибшие в Доме профсоюзов в Одессе могли отравиться хлорпикрином.
Об этом на слушаниях в Общественной палате по ситуации на Украине сообщила член ОП Вероника Крашенинникова.
"Российские эксперты по химическому оружию высказывают мнение по случаю в Одессе <...>, что 32 человека
погибли от токсичных химикатов", – рассказала она.
"А вдруг там что-то всплывет? Это будет для них полный скандал. Выборы и так вряд ли можно
считать легитимными"
В свою очередь замсекретаря палаты Владислав Гриб был шокирован заявлением о применении химоружия
на Украине. "По этим фактам нам надо подготовить специальное заявление Общественной палаты", – призвал
он.
В пресс-службе ОП уточнили, что палата будет просить МИД России добиваться проведения Организацией
по запрещению химического оружия (ОЗХО) расследования трагических событий в Одессе. Также будет подготовлено
заявление в ЕСПЧ.
Член палаты Сергей Орджоникидзе согласился с предложением Гриба и предложил ОЗХО провести соответствующее
расследование по представленной информации. В разговоре с газетой ВЗГЛЯД он выразил уверенность,
что химическое оружие мог применить "Правый сектор". "Но что конкретно они применяли, сейчас с точной
уверенностью сказать трудно. Одни говорят одно, другие – другое. Но ясно, что не слезоточивый газ.
Это было необычное отравляющее вещество, судя по смертельному эффекту, который оно произвело на людей
в Доме профсоюзов", – отметил Орджоникидзе.
Он убежден, что для выяснения всех причин случившегося необходимо провести тщательное независимое
расследование. "Украинские власти что-то говорили, что они не против такого расследования. Но вряд
ли это произойдет. Убийца никогда не будет заинтересован в расследовании собственного преступления.
У меня большие сомнения в искренности украинской стороны, что они способны сами провести такое расследование.
Вот беспристрастное международное расследование – совсем другое дело", – уверен он.
Сергей Орджоникидзе назвал военным преступлением применение химического оружия против собственного
населения. При этом он опасается, что идущая на юго-востоке страны гражданская война может помешать
проведению независимого международного расследования. "Те люди, которые находятся сейчас у власти
в результате государственного переворота, конечно, не заинтересованы в проведении этого расследования
накануне выборов. А вдруг там что-то всплывет? Это будет для них полный скандал. Выборы и так вряд
ли можно считать легитимными", – отметил он.
Напомним, 2 мая в Одессе в ходе противостояния с футбольными фанатами и радикалами из "Правого сектора"
сторонники федерализации были вынуждены укрыться в Доме профсоюзов. После этого украинские националисты
подожгли здание, а тех, кто пытался спастись от огня, обстреливали и добивали палками и камнями.
По данным МВД Украины, в результате беспорядков в тот день погибли 48 человек. При этом высказывались
предположения, что жертв на самом деле могло быть гораздо больше. В частности, лидер движения "Юго-Восток"
и экс-кандидат в президенты Украины Олег Царев
говорил газете ВЗГЛЯД,
что в Доме профсоюзов находилось "более ста убитых" и власти скрывали количество погибших.
Сообщения,
что массовая гибель людей в Доме профсоюзов связана с неким отравляющим веществом, появились на следующий
день после трагедии. Так, 3 мая первый вице-премьер Украины Виталий Ярема отмечал, что люди "погибли
внезапно, очень быстро" из-за горения "некоего вещества, которое выделяло газ".
Позднее глава Службы безопасности Украины Валентин Наливайченко подтвердил, что в Доме профсоюзов
было использовано неизвестное вещество. В СМИ появлялись сведения, что речь может идти о мощном опиате
карфентаниле, используемом как обезболивающее для крупных животных. Замглавы МВД Украины в конце
мая объявил, что следствие обнаружило в мусоре и саже в Доме профсоюзов следы хлороформа. Вдыхание
человеком больших объемов этого вещества приводит к остановке дыхания, однако российские эксперты
усомнились в этом: чтобы несколько десятков человек в помещении насмерть отравились этим веществом,
"его нужно разлить многие десятки, если не сотни литров".
Крашенинникова отметила, что, по оценке экспертов, для такого смертоносного эффекта необходимо
очень большое количество хлороформа, измеряемое ведрами. "Ведер не было, но были ампулы, которые
все видели на фотографиях", – сказала Крашенинникова.
На этом фоне версия с хлорпикрином выглядит вполне правдоподобной. Это ядовитое вещество активно
применялось в 1916–1917 годах, во времена Первой мировой войны, немцами, французами, англичанами
и американцами. Пары хлорпикрина обладают сильным слезоточивым, а в высоких концентрациях – удушающим
и общеядовитым действием. В советское время это средство обычно применяли для проверки противогазов
в камере окуривания и в сельском хозяйстве для уничтожения вредителей. Сейчас оно по-прежнему используется
в небольших количествах для имитации газовой атаки и проверочного тестирования средств химической
защиты.
В том, что против укрывшихся в Доме профсоюзов мог применяться хлорпикрин,
уверен
военный эксперт Георгий Колорадо. По его словам, это отравляющее вещество (ОВ) зеленоватого цвета
при контакте с огнем превращается в фосген, вызывающий отек легких и мгновенную смерть. "Это ОВ в
больших количествах имеется на складах украинской армии, что означает одно – украинские военачальники
напрямую связаны с одесским преступлением", – считает Колорадо.
Отметим, что летом 2008 года в порту Одессы был обнаружен контейнер, в котором под видом сушеных
абрикосов скрывалась крупная партия отравляющих веществ, в том числе хлорпикрин. Вещество находилось
в жестяных банках с надписью "Яд". Тогда власти объявили, что намерены вернуть контейнер обратно
в Турцию, откуда он прибыл. В 2007 году случай отправления хлорпикрином
был зафиксирован в Казахстане.
Тогда пострадали несколько школьников.
Для всех, более умных чем я и способных всё объяснить, в том числе трусливую подлость - (с
сайта оплот - инфо) 2 мая 2014 года в Доме Профсоюзов Одессы украинские нацисты сожгли заживо
и убили другими способами более 200 человек. Среди убитых были дети. Стихотворение маленького
мальчика: \
Я иду по тёмному туннелю,
а навстречу светит яркий свет,
я иду и сам тому не верю,
что меня на свете больше нет. ...
Да сейчас в любом здании столько разного рода пластика того же ПВХ (ПоливилХЛОРИДА), да плюс
электропроводка с изоляцией.что при любом возгорании пожар превращается в химическую атаку. А
наши конечно давай трепать про хим оружие.
Ампулы нашли внутри ДП? А может от наркотиков или лекарств? Ну,да будут военные химоружие в ампулах
выпускать, чтоб солдат- чуть ранение- уж точно задохнулся бы ...
Я думаю наличие ампул и их принадлежность доказать проще простого, для начала. Не знаю, какое
они имеют к этому отношение, но это надо сделать.
Происхождение стекла, остатки надписей на многочисленных и раздавленных осколках, кто и когда
поставлял - это интерес для неравнодушных исследователей.
Notable too were her comments on the May 2nd massacre in Odessa, which she described as "the death
of more than 40 following an afternoon of violent clashes reportedly instigated by pro-Russian separatists…"
This is too cute by half. The 46 people who were burned alive were pro-Russian demonstrators who
barricaded themselves inside the second story of the trade union building in Odessa to escape the
predations of a crowd of Right Sector militants.
As the building burned, Ukrainian activists sang the Ukrainian national anthem, witnesses on
both sides said. They also hurled a new taunt: "Colorado" for the Colorado potato beetle, striped
red and black like the pro-Russian ribbons. Those outside chanted "burn Colorado, burn," witnesses
said. Swastikalike symbols were spray painted on the building, along with graffiti reading "Galician
SS," though it was unclear when it had appeared, or who had painted it.
To this our UN Ambassador
Samantha
Power tweeted: "Fact that #Ukraine has taken steps to try to restore order and take back territory
from separatists is what any nation would do." This is interesting not so much for the moral obtuseness
on display as for the hypocrisy. Recall that only two months ago, when former Ukrainian president
Yanukovych attempted to "restore order" on the Maidan, he was told by Vice President Biden to
pull back his security forces "immediately."
... ... ...
In the Q&A that followed, not one senator mentioned the massacre in Odessa. Sens. Boxer and Cardin
did however express their sympathy for the missing Nigerian girls. All stressed the need for tougher
sanctions on Russia and more "nonlethal tactical assistance" to the Ukrainian government. Some, like
John Barrasso (R-Wyo.) and Ron Johnson (R-Wis.), complained the administration wasn't doing nearly
enough.
Yet overall the hearing was a show of bipartisanship in the very worst sense; not one senator
present dissented from the prevailing view that a) the Russians are the primary cause for the crisis
in Ukraine and b) Ukraine represents a core U.S. national security interest. As the violence continues
to spiral out of control ahead of the May 25th elections, the Congress and the administration find
themselves, for once, in complete and serene agreement that the policy of material support for the
regime in Kiev, and of ever-tighter encirclement of Russia, is indeed the right one. Let's hope they
are right.
James Carden is a TAC contributing editor and served as an advisor to the U.S.-Russia
Bilateral Presidential Commission at the State Department from 2011-2012.
Киевские власти склонны оправдывать сторонников единства Украины, а потому их расследование трагических
событий в Одессе не внушает доверия, заявила заместитель директора европейского и центральноазиатского
отделения правозащитной организации Human Rights Watch Рейчел Денбер.
"Эти тяжелые преступления
требуют серьезного, беспристрастного и тщательного расследования. Мы понимаем, что ведется четыре
расследования, но тут важно не их число, а четкость и эффективность в плане привлечения виновных
к ответственности", - сказала Денбер. По ее словам, это должно быть сделано ради жертв и пострадавших,
передает РИА "Новости".
"Склонность правительства оправдывать сторонников единства в преступлениях не внушает доверия, это
по меньшей мере. HRW будет тщательно следить за расследованием, и мы будем призывать международное
сообщество внимательно все это изучать", - заявила представитель правозащитной организации.
Напомним,
2 мая в Одессе в ходе противостояния с футбольными фанатами и радикалами из "Правого сектора" сторонники
федерализации были вынуждены укрыться
в Доме профсоюзов. После этого украинские националисты подожгли здание, а тех, кто пытался спастись
от огня, обстреливали и добивали палками и камнями.
По данным МВД Украины, в результате беспорядков 2 мая в Одессе
погибли 48 человек.
В ведомстве сообщили, что на месте пожара в Доме профсоюзов
были найдены следы хлороформа,
это вещество якобы стало причиной смерти 32 человек. Шесть человек погибли от огнестрельных ранений,
еще 10 выпали из окон во время пожара и разбились.
Накануне Дмитрий Фучеджи, который руководил действиями одесской милиции во время беспорядков 2
мая и не смог предотвратить
нападение радикалов, рассказал, что те трагические события были провокацией киевских властей.
Он признался, что боевики Майдана начали прибывать в город еще в апреле. А когда 2 мая все началось,
руководство МВД было отправлено центральными властями на совещание.
Начальник главного следственного управления МВД Украины Виталий Сакал сообщил журналистам, что
в мусоре и саже, которые изъяли из Дома профсоюзов Одессы, по данным судебно-медицинской экспертизы,
был обнаружен хлороформ, который и мог послужить причиной гибели большого количества людей.
- Вдыхание паров хлороформа - есть соответствующий вывод экспертизы - приводит к остановке дыхания,
что и произошло у нас. 32 человека погибли не от высокой температуры, а в результате воздействия
неизвестного вещества, остановки сердца и удушья, - буквально заявил Сакал и добавил: - По словам
экспертов, если хлороформ долго находится в воздухе и контактирует с ним, то он переходит в опасное
вещество. И даже не нужно его нагревание, его вдыхание приводит к непоправимым последствиям для здоровья.
Теперь остается выяснить и то, как хлороформ, который уже давно не применяется как наркоз в медицине
при операциях, попал внутрь здания и кто его туда привез.
Напомним, глава МИД России Сергей Лавров также сказал, что в Доме профсоюзов могли применяться
"отравляющие химические вещества". Однако в российском МИДе считают, что расследовать только эту
версию крайне некорректно, а надо учитывать все факторы, в том числе подвоз наемников, вооружение
толпы, стрельбу на поражение и добивание тех, кто пытался спастись.
События 2 мая заставили вздрогнуть и всю страну, и весь мир. Одесские дворы не помнят такого количества
похорон со времен войны. Но первый шок прошел. И теперь Украина гадает: что дальше? Какой ответ даст
Одесса? На просторах интернета призывают к мести: вспомните, что вы город-герой. Начитавшись, ожидала
застать Одессу в истерике. Но Одесса не кричит. Она шепчет: во дворах, на остановках, в ресторанах.
- Встречаешь знакомого. Говоришь о погоде. Но при этом сканируешь его: за или против... И
он тебя сканирует. Сейчас все очень осторожны, - говорит местный житель Дмитрий, с которым познакомились
у сожженного Дома профсоюзов.
Одесса старается не нагнетать. Хочешь говорить на украинском? Говори. Вы можете себе представить
в Славянске кондуктора троллейбуса который "толкает речь" на мове. У такого кондуктора любая следующая
остановка станет конечной. А в Одессе - без проблем. Или Привоз, где половина торговцев - жители
области и говорят на украинском. И продажи у них не падают. Но это не означает, что Одесса и Львов
слились в одном порыве. Да, вы не увидите в городе российских флагов. Но и украинские придется поискать.
- Одесса сняла с себя всю символику. Люди не хотят получить шальную пулю, зная, что пошли разборки
между кланами, - пожимают плечами коллеги из местной редакции. - Почитай городские новости. У
нас жгут машины со львовскими номерами. По данным милиции, уже больше десяти авто сгорело.
Недавно избили и сожгли квартиру местного активиста "Правого сектора" Сергея Левитаненко.
Итак, в Одессе началась "партизанская война". Между кланами, которые вчера сражались по разные
стороны баррикады.
- Наше движение разбито. Одни погибли, другие в тюрьме, третьи в розыске. Но есть и те, кто остался
на свободе. И мы хотим мести, просто потому, что это по-мужски, - один из участников Антимайдана
Николай, крепкий мужик в бейсболке, хмуро наблюдает, как бабушки несут цветы на Куликово поле. -
Тут, помимо прочего, много личного. Одесса ведь большая деревня. Мы все знаем друг друга. Кто-то
уедет домой на запад, а местные останутся. С ними и посчитаемся. Знаешь, что такое кровная месть?
Они заставили нас об этом вспомнить.
Все хостелы забиты крепкими парнями. И по утрам они демонстративно тренируются на детских площадках.
Эта наглядная демонстрация силы и власти: не вздумайте бунтовать - мы еще в городе. Их много, потому
их не трогают. Но местные активисты уже серьезно напряглись. Так, договорились о встрече с членом
одесской ячейки ПР Сергеем Стерненко. Паренек явно нервничает, ему неуютно среди толпы, и мы ныряем
в местный барчик.
- Конечно, надо помнить о мерах безопасности. Мы, допустим, больше не ездим в общественном транспорте.
Раз в три дня меняем место жительства, - говорит, косясь на соседний столик, где нервно глотают кофе
еще пятеро подростков. - Но, с другой стороны, если в городе появятся те, кто в бегах, мы узнаем
об этом первыми и "встретим".
- Но, может, беглецов поддержат,- пожимаю плечами.
- Это вряд ли. Вот Антимайдан объявил, что сегодня пройдет марш от Куликова поля. Кто пришел на
этот марш?
- Вообще-то никто, человек десять...
Парень приподнял бровь, мол, этим все сказано.
На самом деле странно. Две силы дерутся между собой, но мирные жители держат нейтралитет. Интересно
почему? Да, они напуганы. Но ведь именно страх побуждает людей в действию. К захватам, к референдуму
и призыву о помощи к соседу. По такому сценарию пошел народ на востоке.
- В Одессе не так сильны пророссийские настроения, - считает активист одесского Евромайдана Сергей
Гуцалюк - крепкий мужик в очках, по образованию историк. - В Украине многие скучают по Советскому
Союзу. Но не мы. Ведь что такое Одесса? Это дефицит из-под полы. Город контрабандистов и фарцовщиков.
Одни везут, другие торгуют, третьи крышуют. И всем мешает ОБХСС. Раньше даже была поговорка: не ешь
много на ночь - ОБХСС приснится. Потому все вздохнули полной грудью, когда Союз распался.
Одесса прикинула: что такое Россия? Это путинский порядок. Кому он интересен в этом авантюрном
городе? Плюс это передел бизнеса. Жителям востока в этом плане терять нечего, там теряют только
олигархи. А тут процветает мелкий бизнес. Свои лавочки, поставки, наработанные связи. Выбей
один кирпич - и зашатает каждого. Но, пожалуй, главная причина, почему одесситы резко притормозили
после трагедии 2 мая, - это непонимание ситуации. Им казалось, они знают, чего ждать от Евромайдана.
Он им казался ручным и скучным.
Каждый вечер пара сотен человек собирается у памятника Дюка. Выбирает Народную Раду. Потом перевыбирает.
И так по кругу. Лишнего места не занимают, палаточный городок не разбивают.
- Кстати, почему? - интересуюсь у активистов Евромайдана.
- А зачем? - отвечают.
Логично. Плюс тамошний контингент из неженок: историки, актрисы. Камуфляж и берцы - не их фасон.
С "Правым сектором" отношения формальны. Их тут не считали реальной силой. Местное отделение - до
сотни человек. На врагов не тянут: говорят на чистом русском, но чаще помалкивают. И вплоть до последнего
времени болтались где-то на периферии событий.
"ЗА РОССИЮ" НЕ КРИЧАТ, НО ЗА РУССКИЙ ЯЗЫК ПОСТОЯТЬ ГОТОВЫ
Теперь об Антимайдане. Договорились о встрече с одним из активистов. В условленное время к ресторану
подъехал спортивный "Порш". Ну елки, такие машины и в Киеве не часто встретишь. Из него выходит подтянутый
мужчина лет сорока, а следом его подруга - из тех, кто выигрывает конкурсы а-ля "Бикини-2013".
- Как обычно, - дает распоряжение официанту Александр (мужчина просил не называть фамилию, потому
как в Одессе человек известный держит рестораны и гостиницу). Официант бегом метнулся за грогом.
А Александр, помогая подруге прикурить, вспоминал о событиях на Куликовом поле:
- Я тебе так скажу: сепаратистов там не было. За Россию никто не кричал. Мы же с ней даже не граничим.
- Новороссия?
- Непризнанная республика? Корабли обходят наш порт стороной, у моряков возникают проблемы с визами?
Как говорят в Одессе: забудь за такие глупости. Официальные требования: референдум, русский язык
как второй государственный и вхождение в Таможенный союз.
- В чем заключался конкретно ваш интерес: вы баллотируетесь?
- Мой? Мне казалось, что в список официальных требований надо включить порто-франко. Ты представляешь,
как бы расцвел город?
Порто-франко - режим беспошлинной торговли. У Одессы была такая привилегия в XIX веке. И собственно
она сделала Одессу богатейшим городом Европы. Так что требование имеет право на жизнь.
- Вы спонсировали Антимайдан?
- Нет. Я включился уже на бегу. Там изначально было всего несколько палаток. Первую заняли святоши.
Их собрал известный в Одессе поборник православия, у него есть своя организация, журнал какой-то.
Во второй палатке жили обычные пенсионеры, из тех, кто ездит на трамваях и скучает по Союзу. Для
них поставили палатку местные политики, которые баллотировались на волне пророссийских настроений.
Но волна им была нужна небольшая, без "тяжелых" последствий. Потому Народная дружина, которая собралась
для охраны митингов, ничего не штурмовала и не захватывала.
ДОГОВАРИВАТЬСЯ УДАВАЛОСЬ
Действительно, поначалу движение не было массовым. В палатках ночевали не более 20 человек. Митинги
собирали до пяти тысяч. Для миллионной Одессы - это капля в море. На первый взгляд неопасно.
- Оба лагеря вели переговоры. Три месяца кропотливой работы. Подписывали договора о "ненападении".
Согласовывали время шествий, - говорит эксперт Украинского центра социальной аналитики Валерий Писецкий.
- Для многих дружба с идеологическим врагом за гранью понимания, но не этом городе. В Одессе не принято
хлопать дверями. В Одессе договариваются.
И до 2 мая им удавалось находить компромиссы.
"КАПИТАН КАКАО" ВЫБРАЛ ЛОЖНЫЙ КУРС
Хотя тревожные звоночки были. Незадолго до столкновений вдруг взбунтовалась Народная дружина.
Долгое время они просто несли караул у палаток. Затем пошли разговоры о захвате зданий. Лидер Народной
дружины некий Сергей Долженков по кличке Капитан Какао решил сколотить армию. Объявил набор через
интернет.
По Одессе пошел слух, что дружина "делает свой интерес". Возможно, получила заказ на раскачку
ситуации в области. В итоге на Куликовом поле поскандалили и дружина перенесла свой лагерь. А на
следующий день была война. Дружина рвалась в бой, забыла о компромиссах.
- Они умышленно спровоцировали драку. Далее: сакральные жертвы, массовые митинги и захваты зданий.
Одним словом, отыгрывали сценарий Мариуполя, - считает активист Евромайдана Сергей Гуцалюк.
В то же время не дружина придумала провести "мирное шествие" проукраинских сил по Одессе.
- На самом деле за два дня до столкновений в Одессу приезжал Парубий (глава СНБО Андрий Парубий).
Встает вопрос: зачем? Есть подозрения, что давал последние наставления самообороне. Надо понимать,
что в проекте под названием "Новороссия" есть два ключевых города: Харьков и Одесса. Но именно в
Одессе решили провести "показательную порку", - считает эксперт Украинского центра социальной аналитики
Валерий Писецкий.
Впрочем, есть версия, что ситуацию использовала некая третья сила. И работали провокаторы. Эта
версия очень популярна в городе. Одесситы не верят, что они могли так изменить себе и допустить побоище.
Город взял паузу и размышляет: а не сыграли ли нас "в темную"? Трагедия должна была расколоть город,
но случилось обратное. Да, местные активисты еще перезарядят и выстрелят. Но Одессу больше волнует
другое - незваные гости.
- Кто первый к нам с оружием придет - тот и проиграл. И без разницы будет это Национальная гвардия
или "крымская самооборона", - рассуждают на Привозе.
Короче, "против всех", но за Одессу. И если она отвернется от Украины - не вините в этом город.
Неужели она виновата в том, что не потерпит террора? Или в том, что кто-то спровоцировал трагедию?
И даже если Одесса вновь заговорит о федерации и русском языке, даже если потребует порто-франко,
то в чем проблема? Может, в твердолобости и отказе от переговоров. В результате этой "мудрой" политики
мы уже потеряли Крым и можем потерять восток. И если от нас отвернется богемная, яркая, манящая Одесса,
то тут уже настанет черед снова подниматься всей Украине.
А В ЭТО ВРЕМЯ
Одесскую область лихорадит от слухов.
"Донецкая народная республика" во многом состоялась благодаря поддержке жителей области. Там много
раз брали штурмом Донецкую обладминистрацию и всегда только на пару часов. Некому было удерживать,
пока не подтянулись отряды из области. Любопытно, не формируются ли похожие отряды в Одесской области?
- Такого не наблюдаем. Но наш регион лихорадит от слухов: мы граничим с Приднестровьем, где базируется
российский военный контингент. И примерно раза три в неделю нам приходится опровергать слухи о вводе
российских танков. Плюс народ очень боится провокаций на границе, - уверяет журналист "Балтийского
портала" Олег Осадчук.
Но Одесская область велика. К примеру, в Измаильском районе ситуация иная.
- У нас уже сформированы отряды самообороны. Одни за Антимайдан, другие - против. 2 мая между
ними было столкновение, но обошлось без жертв, - говорит шеф-редактор измаильского проекта "Сити"
Игорь Бутров. - Слухов о "Правом секторе" тоже много. Потому с целью проверки приезжал батальон "Киев-1"
(сформирован при МВД Украины из добровольцев). И если кто вызвал в городе панический ужас, то именно
они. Все в балаклавах, случайный набор камуфляжа. Приготовились к массовой эвакуации. Но сейчас страсти
улеглись.
Улеглись на улицах и разгорелись на избирательных участках.
- Наблюдатели отказываются ехать на избирательные участки в область. Члены избирательных комиссий
уходят, боятся давления и провокаций. Притом ушло уже не просто один-два человека. Я бы сказал, что
это тенденция, - уверяет руководитель одесского комитета избирателей Анатолий Бойко.
То, что произошло в Одессе - страшно. Просмотрел много видосов (не официальных
- снятых на смарты очевидцами).
Мой вывод: Не стоит думать что тут все так просто. Разыгран определенный спектакль.Для чего
понятно думаю каждому. А вот кем - это вопрос.?
Горячую голову всегда найдутся кукловоды. Задайте себе вопрос: "Так ли плохо нам жилось недавно?"У
меня много друзей в Одессе. С удовольствием езжу в Одессу. И всех зову к нам в Днепропетровск.
Мой совет всем. Почаще включаем мозги. И не стоит ничего делать на горячую голову. И все у нас
будет хорошо.
"That Friday, more than 1,000 pro-Ukrainians marched through Odessa, singing patriotic songs
and chanting anti-Putin slogans."
Isn't it amazing how subtle propaganda can be? Both sides of this are "pro-Ukrainian". One
side supports the lawfully elected government that was ousted with support of the West. The other
supports the unelected government presently running the country.
At least the Atlantic doesn't call the newly installed government "pro-democratic". I suppose
they do have some standards.
trythemiddle > Carpe Pectora • 11 hours ago
You seem to have neglected the side that fully supports the "duly elected government of Russia".
Unless you believe that a couple thousand guys all happened to go to the local army/navy store
and buy identical military grade gear and the military vehicles to transport themselves around
with.
Carpe Pectora > trythemiddle • 11 hours ago
Don't get me wrong here. There are no "good guys" in this. But if you think that the neo-Nazi
trouble makers that were the backbone of the "peaceful protests" were not just as inspire by the
CIA you are incredibly naive.
I put peaceful protesters in quotation marks, because even while they were lobbing Molotov
cocktails and burning government buildings, they were being called "peaceful protesters", and
when government forces fired on them, it was an outrage.
Now, when forces funded and supported by the Kremlin (instead of the CIA) do the same things,
they are "violent separatists" who get sho as part of government "anti-terror" operations.
Carpe Pectora > AmosJones • 10 hours ago
To copy and paste
"The All-Ukrainian Union "Svoboda" (Ukrainian: Всеукраїнське об'єднання "Свобода", Vseukrayinske
obyednannia "Svoboda"), translated as Freedom, is a Ukrainian nationalist political party,[2]
and currently one of the five major parties of the country.[9] Three members of the party hold
positions in Ukraine's government.
The party was founded in 1991 as the Social-National Party of Ukraine"
So they are the Social-National Party-not the National Socialist party. A totally different
thing! LOL
librtee_dot_com > AmosJones • 9 hours ago
Typical ignorant Atlantic Reader - suffering from the worse kind of ignorance, believing you
are not ignorant.
Svoboda party holds sec. education, agriculture, interior, defense (since removed I believe),
and Vice PM.
Svoboda is the largest party of the 'Far Right' coalition.
There have been rallies in Kiev of 10s of thousands of 'Far Right' members, all shouting fascist/ultra-nationalist
slogans and displaying fascist symbols, such as the wolfsangel, and imagery.
They proudly march under banners of Banderas, a Nazi collaborating Ukranian nationalist whose
vision was of Ukranian blood purity within the borders of Ukraine. While Banderas himself fell
out of favor with the Nazis, his OUN-B was the most ideologically similar to naziism among
the various Ukranian groups at the time (fighting for Ukranian racial purity). Banderas believed
the Ukraine's two great enemies in the world were the Soviet Union and Jews...notice a similarity?
Banderas is the single most popular historical figure among the far right crowd, so calling
them as a group 'Neo-nazi' is not out of bounds.
Here was have, last week, the Kiev appointed governor of Kherson praising Hitler as the 'liberator
of Ukraine'
(google: Ukraine: Kherson governor praises Adolf Hitler as 'liberator' addressing veterans
on Victory Day)
By 'tool,' you meant a 'useful implement that builds things,' right?
daniel > AmosJones • 8 hours ago
Wait, Amos Jones, you actually did not know that Svoboda and Right Sector are avowed neo-Nazi
groups? This does not reflect badly on you, so much as it shows how deficient the American press
has been about informing its readers.
These are not pro-Putin talking points, they are the depressing facts. And nobody on this thread
is to my knowledge a fan of the disgusting and murderous Putin.
Now that you know that they are in fact Nazi parties does that force you to reassess a little
bit.
Carpe Pectora > trythemiddle • 9 hours ago
I would say the group that followed the constitution of the country to impeach the president
and elect a new one would be the good guys. Oh wait, that would be no one!
As for Putin buying off the country, there were two offers on the table to "buy off" Ukraine's
debt-one from the EU and one from Russia. The elected president of the country chose the offer
from Russia.
In a democracy that is how it works and if people don't like it, they follow the rule of law
and elect a new president.
"One protester called Albu, who said he had been barricaded in the building, told Russia Today
the Ukrainian ultra-nationalist Right Sector was to blame for the attack. He said the activists
threw in stun grenades and tear gas, adding: "When we were finally able to jump out of the window
from the second floor, we were met by the Right Sector radicals. They beat us using bats and chains".
Here is the capture showing the speech made on May 9 2014 by the Governor of the Kherson region
of Ukraine (appointed by the current Kiev Ukrainian ruling regime),
where he describes Hitler as the liberator of Ukraine (from the yoke of the Russian-Soviet Communist
regime ) www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2_N4v...
Here is what USA State Department stated with regards to tragic events in Odessa:
"The United States condemned the violence that led to the fire.
"The violence and mayhem that
led to so many senseless deaths and injuries is unacceptable," Marie Harf, a U.S. State Department
spokeswoman, said.
The events that led to the fire "underscore the need for an immediate de-escalation of tensions
in Ukraine," Harf said."
=========
State's Rubin at House Hearing on U.S. Policy Toward Ukraine
U.S. Department of State
Testimony of Eric Rubin
Deputy Assistant Secretary, Bureau of European and Eurasian Affairs
Statement Before the House Foreign Affairs Committee
Washington, DC
March 6, 2014
....
"I would also like to state before this committee that the United States is monitoring the reports
of anti-Semitic acts extremely closely. We know that some organizations have expressed concern
about the treatment of the Jewish community in Ukraine. We continue to emphasize to the leadership
of all Ukrainian parties that there is no place for anti-Semitism in Ukraine's future."
Crimes committed by NKVD do not excuse crimes committed against Jews by
the Bandera OUN/ UPA movement during WW2.
===== http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...
"The Lviv pogroms were two massacres of Jews living in and near in the city
of Lwów, the occupied Poland (now Lviv,Ukraine), that took place from 30
June to 2 July and 25–29 July 1941 during World War II. According to Yad
Vashem, 60,000 Jews were killed by Einsatzgruppen, some Ukrainian nationalists
and Ukrainian militia. "
In fact - Putin is indeed tied to NKVD's policy and today's Ukranian party "Right Sector" (who's
members are part of current Ukrainian Kiev Government) is indeed tied to Bandera OUN/UPA.
======== http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R...
Right Sector (Pravy/Pravyi Sektor) is a Ukrainian nationalist political party.[1] In its earlier
manifestation as a paramilitary confederation of radical right-wing groups, it provided logistical
support and tactical leadership at the Euromaidan protests in Kiev.
The coalition was organized
in November 2013.[2] Founding far-right groups include Trident (Tryzub), led by Dmytro Yarosh
and Andriy Tarasenko, and the Ukrainian National Assembly–Ukrainian National Self Defence (UNA–UNSO),
a political/paramilitary group.[2][3] Other far-right, racist and Ukrainian neo-Nazi founding
groups include the Patriots of Ukraine, White Hammer and the Social-National Assembly.[4][5] White
Hammer was expelled in March 2014.[6]
Right Sector became a political party on 22 March 2014, at which time it was estimated to have
perhaps 10,000 members.[7][8]
Putin ties to NKVD is lesser the USA president George Bush, Sr. ties to the american version
of same, CIA.
But oranges aren't melons. However powerful NKVD was, it was implementing certain ideas of the
state, not its own, the sane way CIA/NSA do. The "Right Sector" is a political organization with
direct roots to Petlura and later Bandera.
Frum lets his sympathies get in the way of the facts here. There is not much REAL doubt as to
how the fire at the trade union building started; it was attacked and firebombed by a pro-Ukraine
mob. Implying that this is only a 50 percent probability, as he does, is extraordinarily deceptive.
Blaming Odessa police inertness when the mob attacked on Yanukovych era corruption is absurdist
misdirection (the police in Odessa largely side with the new powers in Kiev/Lvov). Also, it falsely
implies that there has been anything but massive corruption at other points in Ukraine's post-communist
history. For a short and revolting lesson in pre-Yanukovych corruption, read 'Dirty Yulia':
http://internationalboulevard....
Likewise suggesting that the Ukrainian nationalist takeover represents 'democracy' to the pro-Russian
authoritarianism of previously is a fake distinction: they both represent different strands of
oligarchic authoritarianism.
In short, Frum has taken the usual foreign journalist path of picking a 'good guy' side in
a situation where there aren't any, and twisting everything to fit that narrative.
Meanwhile the Wall Street Journal is opening the door of its oped page to Nazis. Here,
Andriy Parubiy, the founder of Ukraine's Nationalist Socialist Party and current minister in charge
of security, makes an appeal for US military aid.
Yet once again, there's concrete proof that the NATO neo-liberal neo-fascist junta does not want
to negotiate anything. Farcical "acting" President Oleksandr Turchynov labeled the exercise in direct
democracy a "farce, which terrorists call the referendum"; and Washington and Brussels branded it
"illegal".
And all this after the Odessa massacre; after the deployment of neo-nazi paramilitaries disguised
as a "National Guard" (the goons US corporate media calls "Ukrainian nationalists"); dozens of CIA
and FBI agents on the ground; plus 300 of the inevitable Academi - former Blackwater - mercenaries.
What else to expect when the current Ukrainian Secretary for National Security is neo-nazi Andriy
Parubiy, the previous commander of the Maidan's "self-defense forces" and a cheerleader of World
War II nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera.
Banderastan - with its remix of 1980s Central American-style death squads - doesn't do referendums;
they'd rather burn to death ethnic Russian civilian "insects" who dare to occupy buildings.
So this is the key message of the referendums. We reject the Kiev NATO neo-liberal neo-fascist
junta. It's an illegal "government" of putschists. We are not "pro-Russian" separatists. We don't
want to secede. What we want is a unified, federal and civilized Ukraine, with strong autonomous
provinces.
R2P, anyone?
The Empire of Chaos wants - what else - chaos. Crucially, the Empire of Chaos now blatantly supports
the deployment of an "army against their own population"; this was strictly verboten - punishable
by NATO bombs or NATO-enabled jihad - in Libya and Syria, but now is just the new normal in Ukraine.
In Libya and in Syria - they tried three times at the UN - this would be the ultimate pretext
for R2P ("responsibility to protect"). But in Ukraine the "terrorists" - Dubya-era terminology included
- are the population, and the good guys are the Kiev neo-nazi militias. US ambassador to the UN and
top R2P cheerleader Samantha Power exceeded all her previous levels of batshit craziness when she
depicted the NATO junta onslaught against civilians as "reasonable" and "proportional", adding that
"any of our countries" would have done the same in face of such a threat.
Berlin, for its part, wants, tentatively, to go the diplomatic way, although there's a clear split
between stony Atlanticists and German captains of industry - who have identified clearly how Washington
is aiming no holds barred to destroy the Russo-German economic synergy. The Empire of Chaos's game
is to erect a wall between them, manifested in practice by a Russian "invasion". It's true that Moscow
could easily pull a Samantha and invoke R2P to protect Russians and Russophones in Ukraine. But chessmaster
Putin knows better than to invent a new Afghanistan in his western borderlands.
For Berlin all that matters is the economy. Germany will grow by 1.9% at best in 2014. With 6,200
German businesses in Russia and over 300,000 German jobs depending on two-way trade, American-style
sanctions are beyond counter-productive, although Russophobia and Cold War 2.0 hysteria remains somewhat
rampant.
Paris, for instance, has seen the writing on the wall. The US$1.66 billion contract to sell two
Mistral-class helicopter carriers to Russia will go ahead, as Paris diplomats admitted the cancellation
- in terms of penalties and lost jobs - would hurt France much more than Russia.
Chris Harrison · School of Hard Knocks, University of Life
Stephen Cohen criticized the US government on Monday for its unwavering support of the Kiev
government.
Appearing on Democracy Now!, Cohen addressed this weekend's hastily convened referendum on
self-rule in Eastern Ukraine, calling it "no more or less legal than the government in Kiev,"
which seized power in February.
Cohen condemned the US response to attacks by Ukrainian troops in the Eastern cities of Mariupol
and Odessa, where dozens of pro-Russian protesters were killed in a fire two weeks ago. "What
did the US government say?" Cohen asked, "Did it say 'we regret the loss of life?' Did it say,
'there should be an investigation?' No. It said, 'Kiev has the right to restore law and order.'"
If a war crime was committed in Eastern Ukraine, warns Cohen, "we applauded it."
Catine Perkins
Stephen F. Cohen is .in all probability, the most insightful SCHOLAR, in understanding Russia
and her people. The Russian and Soviet leaders understood this and truly respected him. Too bad,
few Americans understood his abilities in our relationship, for smooth sailing and truly trading
with Russia.
Does anyone know why the continuous hate virus towards Russia and her people?
... ... ...
Chris Harrison · School of Hard Knocks, University of Life
Link to the official US government website for USAID.
That US government site officially states that USAID INCREASES SUPPORT FOR MEDIA AND PRESS
FREEDOM IN UKRAINE
For Immediate Release
Friday, May 2, 2014
USAID Press Office
http://www.usaid.gov/news-information/press-releases/may-2-2014-usaid-increases-support-media-and-press-freedom-ukraine
This support takes place on May 2, 2014- the very same day of the Odessa massacre.....now look
at what the Kiev Post publishes on May 3,2014, the very next day...
Police say pro-Russians accidentally set fatal Odessa fire with Molotov cocktails (LIVE UPDATES,
VIDEO)
Print version
May 3, 2014, 6:45 p.m. | Ukraine - by Kyiv Post
Now take a look at the way these people died....and attempt to figure out all these "accidents"...Warning
graphic photos: Pictures are of corpses in various states of death. http://ucmopuockon.livejournal.com/5885397.html
Victims of the Odessa fire massacre died within seconds, but not from smoke or carbon monoxide
suffocation, the head of Odessa's emergency service department, Vladimir Bodelan, said on his Facebook
page.
Violent clashes erupted on May 2 between rival rallies of anti-government protesters and radicals
supporting the coup-imposed authorities in Kiev. The confrontation led to a tragedy that left 48
people dead and 247 injured as nationalists burnt the protester camp and then set fire to the Trade
Unions House with anti-Kiev activists trapped inside. According to witnesses, many of those who managed
to escape the flames were then strangled or beaten with bats by radicals.
"I'm sure that 99.9 percent of the people were killed in the Trade Unions House within seconds
and did not suffocate from smoke...[or burn in the] fire. But there are forensic experts, we will
wait for their findings," Bodelan said.
Bodelan was by the building when it was set on fire and said that even before the smoke spread
inside, he saw people leaning outside windows trying to take a breath of fresh air.
"I cannot explain why they were having such trouble breathing, but I am 100 percent sure that
it was not because of the smoke caused by the fire," Bodelan said.
He added that there was a bang after the fire started inside the building, which apparently extinguished
the blaze on the central staircase. "In that second, a few people jumped from the building...The
majority of them were alive and they were even able to walk on their own two feet. But a couple dozen
meters later, they lost consciousness and fell to the ground, with their tragic end known to all."
He witnessed rescuers carrying more than 350 individuals out of the building while others who
managed to jump out of the windows were heavily beaten by radicals – which led to many choosing to
stay inside the building.
Bodelan said that several thousand individuals who were gathered outside the building prevented
firefighters from getting close to the scene of the fire for quite some time.
"The worst thing in this situation was that fire brigades that arrived at the site on time
could not begin putting out the fire because the attackers were shooting and resisting," he
said.
All of Bodelan's attempts to increase police presence in the area went unanswered.
"I was forced to negotiate with activists, who looked to me as heads of fighter units, that
we could work calmly," he said.
At the same time, Kiev has made public its report, in which it also revealed what caused the death
of nearly 50 people. According to "official information," six people died of gun shots,
32 suffocated or died in the flames and another 10 fell to their deaths.
Forty-eight of those killed in the massacre have been identified by both local and social media.
Three bodies people are still considered missing, according to various sources. Over 60 people remain
in hospitals, 26 of whom are in grave condition.
Residents of Odessa gathered last weekend for a memorial service to commemorate the victims of
the May 2 bloodshed.
Here's the key information from the second leaked conversation:
The second leaked conversation, which also emerged on May 14, was between Oleg Noginsky,
the president of the Suppliers of Customs Union, an organization which aims at increasing the
turnover between Ukraine and the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Russia, and someone
whom he called Yan Borisovich. Noginsky said that Kolomoisky's actions are mad.
"Besides, it was he [Kolomoisky] who hired the guys in the Odessa [massacre]… the situation
went out of control. Their task was to beat them [anti-government protesters] so they would be
taken to hospital and to destroy the camp [on Kulikovo Pole Square] completely," he said.
And sweet FA will be done about any of this, of course. Just like nothing has been done about
the Ashton Maidan-sniper-"gosh" tape.
Bear in mind, everybody but everybody knows that that shit Kolomoiskiy uses his football hooligan
fascist army as a terror squad – his brownshirts so to speak.
Everybody in East and South Ukraine, that is.
Elsewhere, such an accusation is classified as "Kremlin propaganda".
Okay, here is the translation into English of the 2 wiretapped phone conversations posted
here. The purpose of publicizing
these calls was to provide supportive evidence for the theory that Igor Kolomoisky was behind
the Odessa Trade Union Building fire.
Both conversations are in Russian, conveniently accompanied by a typed transcription into Russian.
Conversation #1 reads like a scene from a gangster movie, like The Sopranos, so I used American
idiomatic gangster slang in my translation.
Conversation #2 is actually quite a literary masterpiece in the original Russian, and reads
more like a Chekhov play. Or maybe a Broadway literary play, something like "My Dinner with Andre",
in which 2 Jews discuss how their tribe might be harmed by the murderous actions of this one rogue
Jewish oligarch.
Second conversation is quite long, in my haste to get it out there, I just did a passable job
of translation, went for linguistic accuracy without trying to get too literary. But close your
eyes and try to imagine that it was written by David Mamet, or somebody like that.
So, without further ado:
TWO TAPPED PHONE CALLS
Conversation #1 : Kolomoisky phones Oleg Tsarev, makes gangster-type threats to whack him
and his family :
K : Hi, Tsarev. Greetings. Where you at? In the same place (as usual)?
T : Yup, same place.
K : How's it going?
T : Okay.
K : Big tragedy occurred. Some Jew died, he was from the Dnitropetrovk Jewish community.
T : What happened?
K : Like I said, some Jew from the Dnitropetrovk community died. I'm in the synagogue right now,
even as we speak.
T : What was he doing there?
K : It's not important what he was doing. They're saying they will pay out big money for your
head, you cunt. Big money.
T : For MY head?
K : A million dollars. For your head. Yep, and not only that, they're saying they will search
you out everywhere. I'm just sayin'. I just wanted to let you know, you should just stick with
bullshitting the folks in Moscow, you ain't going nowhere…
T : Great. I wanted to tell you this joke I heard. In Africa there is this…
K : Tomorrow all your peeps are gonna be wasted here…
T : In Africa there is this… they have this particular type of poison…
K : Listen to me, you little shit. I don't give a rat's ass what they have in Africa. Don't tell
me that bullshit. I'm just letting you know that, in the synagogue, on the eve of Shabbath, there
was a prayer said. They were praying for this… this dead Jew… this Comrade Shlemkevich, the Jew
who was killed in Mariupol, you rotten cunt…
T : And so…
K : And they [the Jews] were saying, that this Tsarev guy, he's the one who is to blame for all
of this. And tomorrow first thing, you piece of shit, they're going to seek out and find all your
posse. You just better let them know to get out of Dodge, fast, you prick. 'cause we're going
to hang them all right there out on the square. And by the way, you tell Markov not to come here
either. Into Ukraine, I mean. Not under any circumstances…. Hello?
T : Don't call me any more. Leave me alone, Igor.
K : I can't call you no more? Okay. So long, Tsarev. Have a nice life…
[hangs up]
Conversation #2 : A dialogue between 2 Jews – Oleg Noginsky and Jan Borisovich Epshtein. Noginsky
is the President of the Association of Suppliers of the Customs Union. Epshtein is the Israeli
consul in Ukraine.
Jan [picking up the phone] : Hello?
Oleg : Hello, Jan Borisovich, good evening. Forgive me [for the intrusion]. Happy Holiday.
Did I wake you?
Jan : No, of course not, it's still early. Happy Holiday to you too. I wish you peace and good
health…
Oleg : Jan Borisovich, I am calling about a very painful matter, and I am really worried…
Jan : Why? What's up?
Oleg: Well, on 9 May you saw what happened in Mariupol, right? Some guy named Mr. Shelemchak
was killed.
Jan : Who?
Oleg: Shelemchak. A Jew from Dnitropetrovsk. At least, that's what Kolomoisky says. But that's
not the worse of it. The point is that Kolomoisky phoned Tsarev and told him literally this, that
in all the synagogues in Ukraine today, they are going to give out a " fatwa " to all believing
Jews : one million for the head of Tsarev, and for Russian separatists [in general]. Well, as
soon as I heard the word " synagogue "….
Jan : Oh, that's just nonsense. I know that [inaudible]… I was at the synagogue today. They had
the usual prayers, the usual deal, so to speak.
Oleg : Jan Borisovich, that's not what I'm talking about, of course nothing happened in the
synagogues. The point is that… when he says stuff like that… I don't know if his words were recorded
or not, but if those words get out to the press… Well, you can imagine what's going to happen…
Jan : You mean, to Tsarev?
Oleg : Yeah. One million dollars for his head. And that tomorrow they'll start to hang all his
family. His relatives…
Jan : [makes dismissive sounds like he doesn't believe what Tsarev said]
Oleg : No, listen to me… You know Oleg [Tsarev], say what you will about him, but he never
lies. And he sent this to me just tonight, he's in a huge state of shock. And this was also confirmed
to me by a man who was sitting right next to him and overheard the whole conversation.
Jan : That's horrible. No, I simply cannot understand how a Jew could… Jews are not supposed
to, in principle, ever permit themselves to do stuff like that. They phoned him [Tsarev] personally?
Oleg : Yeah. He [Kolomoisky] likes to do stuff like that. Not long ago he phoned Markov (People's
Deputy of Ukraine Igor Olegovich Markov), he started telling him [Markov] how he would be burned
alive if he ever came to Odessa. It's like a hobby with him. I don't know, I have the sense that
he has simply gone out of his mind, if truth be told. On the other hand, it is a fully confirmed
fact that it was him [Kolomoisky] who hired those goons in Odessa. Fully confirmed. And for the
precise purpose of placing Palitsa (Odessa Province Governor Igor Palitsa) in the post of Governor.
I got confirmation from that in the Tymoshenko HQ. The situation got out of control for them.
Their job was just to beat people up, mess them up a bit, get them taken off to the hospital so
they could tear down their Tent City.
Jan : Yeah, well you know, these were Avakov's guys. Those guys are capable of anything.
Oleg : Well, there was supposed to be a deal. If it was still [inaudible] … and in principle,
a verbal agreement. He came in and said, " What are you gonna do about Odessa? " That Kulikovo
Field was there, all the time, non-stop… " Give Odessa to me, and I'll make it just like Dnipropetrovsk.
Like, not even a mouse will dare to stick his nose out. So, they tell him, " Okay. "
Jan : He was already in Odessa. He was living there.
Oleg : And he's still there now. And he's still doing stuff, like, on the one hand, in the
past 3 days 16 people have been killed, out of those who were detained and were still alive after
the " Trade Union " [fire]. Two people had their throats slashed… And so on…
Jan : Well, Oleg, I simply cannot, I simply cannot believe that Bennie is capable of doing
such a thing. [Bennie??]
Oleg : I have the feeling that he has gone insane. Well, let's assume that Korban is very actively
trying to take away Tsarev's property. Well, enough said about that…
Jan : I don't know the man, therefore I can't say anything about him. I don't know him.
Oleg : Well, he's a friend of Bennie's. And Filatov was also going on about paying a bounty
for Moskali… I just think that… Jan Borisovich, the fact is, that Bennie's affairs are Bennie's
affairs. He can do whatever he wants to do. Even if he believes himself to be the Second Coming
of Hitler. Well, and we're going to end up with, I guess, a second Nazi Germany on the territory
of a small chunk of Ukraine, Bennie is a multi-millionaire, and is the master of that domain.
And whatever happens to other Jews around the world… I just think that somehow or another we need
to distance ourselves from that. Immediately, and publicly.
Jan : Distance ourselves from what?
Oleg : From Kolomoisky. From Bennie.
Jan : And how are we gonna do that?
Oleg : Well, for starters, we could issue a statement that in a case like this, world Jewry
has nothing in common with the personal position of Mr. Kolomoisky. And secondly : (a) not support
neither Odessa nor Mariupol, or none of that, and express our personal condolences; and thirdly,
we would announce that if any Jew should be encountered committing Nazi atrocities, then we will
be the first ones to condemn…
Jan : Well, things have been fairly quiet in that regard recently, thank goodness.
Oleg : And all the more so, out of the actions of one man, who decided to become a billionaire.
A mult-billionaire. Or who thinks of himself as the Master of Ukraine.
Jan : No, but the point is, the synagogues, if they… The synagogues should always remain distance
from these types of … The synagogue – is a meeting place, it is a place of prayer. It should engage
itself [only] in the spiritual lives of Jews. And that's it. That is its sole, so to speak, task.
And not to engage in politics, in such things, nor to support…
Oleg : What I mean is that, well, you know, it's just that I have this feeling that, unfortunately,
standing apart from politics is not going to be possible for us…
Jan : Why so?
Oleg : It just won't work. And by the way, I asked Oleg [Tsarev] to keep quiet about this [Kolomoisky's
threatening phone call]. His very first thought was to make it public.
Jan : No. If he does that, then he himself will start to stir people up against the Jews. That's
for sure.
Oleg : What do you mean? This could start something crazy. And people all over the world could
be stirred up [against the Jews].
The Atlanticist media stubbornly presents the crimes committed in Odessa on May 2 as the result
of an accidental blaze, while the photos and video footage available leave no doubt that the victims
were tortured and murdered before being burned. We bring you first-hand information on how the operation
was organized and executed under the direct and personal authority of coup-appointed acting President
Alexander Turchinov.
The information provided below was obtained from an insider in one of Ukraine's law-enforcement
agencies, who wished to remain anonymous for obvious reasons. It is clear that there are people even
within the interim administration in Kiev who are against of what happened in Odessa on May 2 and
throughout the whole country
There seem to be three different sources saying they know who authorised the Odessa massacre,
but two of them are compatible. The one that is running on
Voice of Russia says Kolomoisky did it:
An audio recording of a phone conversation between oligarch and governor of the Dnepropetrovsk
Region Igor Kolomoisky and Oleg Tsarov made by unknown persons has appeared in the Internet.
As the caption to the posted recording says, the conversation took place late at night on May
10 2014 and was recorded by former officers of the Security Service of Ukraine who now call
themselves the Joint Cyber-Militia of the Donetsk, Lugansk and Kharkov Regions. In addition,
another audio record was posted online that proves that Kolomoisky personally ordered the Odessa
massacre.
Then we have ProP's one,
which says "Kolomoiskiy was consulted in regard to the operation." Finally we have
my one, which doesn't
mention Kolomoiski at all, but says Tymoshenko did it.
This is the saddest 21 pictures I've seen in a long time. You just want yell at that stupid
aggressive ass dressed in blue "Stop. Get the hell out of here".
In picture #2 the older guy on the far left holding their right flank I think is a veteran.
Looking at the video at the way they all moved, the blue masked guy in black grey and white fatigues
is the only other one who's been around gun fire. The two guys in sunglasses one on the left is
too fat and the one on the right looks like a clerk.
Picture #12 is the last shooting going down. The old guy's got his back to the wall and is
not jumping around like a scared rabbit holding an automatic weapon.
Yanukovych did not agree with those who believe that the topic of fascism in Ukraine inflated.
As reported by the Russian media Fourth President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych compared the situation
in Ukraine with the situation in Germany during the reign of the Nazis and Adolf Hitler.
"In an unprecedented armed coup, illegal seizure of power - we lost all that were collected daily
by the pellet in a piggy bank of Ukraine unification. Today hatred, fear, despair, revenge impulses,
frank thuggery and fascism dominate political discourse " - said Yanukovych .
He disagrees with those who believe that the topic of fascism in Ukraine inflated. It seems that
today's Ukraine began to resemble Germany during the reign of Hitler. Then Hitler was appointed as
the enemy were dissenting intellectuals, Jews, Gypsies and some other social groups. Now in Ukraine
entire towns are under siege, just because people are defending their point of view that is different
from views of the Kiev junta !
"Heart of a normal person winces seeing burnt dead bodies, martyred in Odessa. But today we see
incredible - the part of society, which was turned into zombie by propaganda was not only able to
accept the murder as normal, but to rejoice in it . This is the ordinary fascism. junta propaganda
created the image of an external enemy from fellow citizens. Supporters of junta rejoiced their deaths
mocked and insulted the dead. I could not even imagine that people could be so cynical to speak about
people burned alive"- said fourth president .
Source: Utro.ua
"Forty two of those killed in the massacre have been identified by local and social media. Odessa
news portal dumskaya.net published an unofficial list of the victims and the reasons of death: for
a majority of victims it allegedly was "gas poisoning". However, several victims reportedly died
of gunshots, while others burnt alive or crashed on the ground after jumping out of windows trying
to escape the deadly flames. Their ages vary from about 20 to 70.
Up to 48 people according
to various sources are still considered missing. Over 60 remain in hospitals, including 26 in a grave
condition."
Editor's Note: The investigation into the fights and fires that killed 46 people in Odessa
on May 2 is still ongoing. There are conflicting claims. Here are the stories of two women who say
they were part of the anti-Ukrainian government camp.
ODESSA, Ukraine - As citizens of Odessa come to terms with the tragedy of May 2, more accounts
are emerging of the fatal events that killed 46 people. At a funeral on May 7 for an anti-government
activist killed in the fire that destroyed local Trade Unions House, several other protesters who
had been trapped in the burning building came to pay their respects.
Two women told the Kyiv Post their stories of what happened. Neither woman would give their surname
becaue they said it was too dangerous to be identified as anti-government witnesses to events.
Many of the funerals of those who died on May 2 have not been publicized for fear of attracting
more violence. Pro-government activists have faced threats and intimidation since May 2, as many
names and addresses have been published online.
Tetiana
Tetiana, a 57-year-old retired teacher from Odessa, had been a frequent visitor to the tent protest
camp on Kulykove Pole Square in central Odessa. A very vocal opponent of the new Ukrainian government
which she believes to be run by fascists, she said a core group of about 40 unarmed demonstrators
were living in the camp, while others came daily.
According to Tetiana, there had been rumors going around for several days of an attack on the
camp on May 2 by pro-government forces. The young men there said they would stay and defend it to
the last.
"The young ones said 'We're not leaving, we'll be a memorial to the fact that Odessa will never
be a fascist city,'" Tetiana said. "We wanted to help them; we thought if adults were there too it
would be safer. It never occurred to us that they would kill us."
Tetiana had been in the city with a friend and when she arrived at Kulykovo Pole Square, at much
the same time as the main pro-Ukrainian crowd arrived from the direction of Pushkin Street, she saw
protesters from the camp building a barricade on the steps to the Trade Unions House, using boards
and poles from the camp. The building door was open; Tetiana guesses the protesters had broken the
glass to get in.
"Before that, our Markin [Odessa city council member Vyacheslav Markin] shouted that all women
and older people should run from the square because they might get killed," Tetiana said. "But people
didn't believe it. They wanted to shut themselves into the building and not let anyone in."
After that everything happened very quickly; Tatiana heard shouts and shouts from Pushkin Street
and saw people running towards Kulykovo Pole Square. The camp protesters were still shouting at the
women to leave, but Tetiana could not see where to go and ran inside the building.
The young men told the women to go to the upper floors, leaving them to defend the first floor.
When Molotov cocktails began to fly from outside and there was firing through the main door, Tetiana
ran upstairs to the second floor and down the corridor. Molotov cocktails were being thrown in through
windows. The window frames and curtains began to burn. Tetiana and several others tried to put the
fires out, covering their faces with the blue surgical masks which many protesters wear for anonymity.
Choked by smoke, they hid in an office which soon filled with smoke too. Tetiana and four young
men tried to break the windows for more air but the glass was too thick.
"There was such an awful stink and I decided to go back to the first floor - let them shoot me
but I'm suffocating here," Tetiana said. "But outside in the corridor there was black, black smoke
coming from the stairwell and I understood I couldn't get out that way. So I went back into the room.
We stood there and waited, I was calling the police and the fire brigade and the ambulance but no
one answered. I understood that no one was planning to rescue us."
Whenever any of them went near the window, she said, Molotov cocktails came flying and people
shouted and shot at the window.
"They were burning us inside on purpose and no one would let us leave," the woman said.
Molotov cocktails broke the window. At last Tetiana went to the window and started waving for
help before she climbed out onto the broad cornice outside and held on to the AC unit. After a while,
one of the young men, who was wearing a balaclava and helmet, climbed out beside her.
"He was standing on the right of me. I could hear shouting: 'We'll kill you'. My face was to the
wall and I couldn't see, but something hit me on the head, I don't know what it was," said Tetiana.
Her hair caught on fire but the man next to her put it out, saving her life, she says.
Below, two men from the crowd outside brought pallets from the destroyed tent camp and tried to
persuade Tetiana to jump to safety, but she was too afraid. She doesn't know how long she stood on
the cornice – maybe thirty minutes, maybe an hour, she says.
Finally, at about 8 p.m., the police arrived and at the same time someone –she's not sure who
– pushed a scaffolding tower to the building. The photos from the scene show it was the pro-Ukrainian
activists who brought the scaffolding to the building. Tetiana was the first person to climb down
on it.
Tetiana says she doesn't know what happened to the men in the room with her, or the one beside
her on the cornice.
"It was obvious [the crowd] were really trying to get him, they really wanted him," she said,
because he was wearing a mask and helmet and was therefore clearly an activist.
Tetiana was led away to an ambulance by Odessans in the crowd. But she said she saw other people
in the crowd beating and kicking protesters who had escaped from the building.
Two days later, Tetiana was one of the anti-government crowd who demonstrated outside the Odessa
city police station, breaking windows and storming the gate to demand the release of people detained
by police on May 2. She says one of those detained was her friend who came with her to Kulykovo Pole
Square on May 2, a young woman who also got trapped in the building and who had no hand in instigating
the violence.
Alyona
Alyona, a 35-year-old native Odessan, was one of the protest camp's volunteer medics. She and
her colleagues had planned May 2 as a "training day." She arrived to Kulykove Pole Square at much
the same time as Tetiana, and also fled inside the building. There she set up a first-aid station
on the second floor, expecting to treat minor injuries until the police arrived. When the stairwell
filled very suddenly with choking black smoke and the lights went out, she ran and hid in a fourth
floor office.
Both Alyona and Tetiana say attackers ran inside the building in pursuit when the protesters took
refuge on upper floors. They think there may even have been people who were not from their group
inside beforehand. They both think those on the building roof throwing Molotov cocktails, clearly
seen in video footage, were not from their group.
However, Alyona says protesters inside may have been making Molotov cocktails, in panic, but were
not very competent and failed to throw them outside.
But she thinks it impossible that the building was set on fire from the inside.
"It happened immediately, there was terrible black smoke everywhere, on all the floors at once,"
she said.
She did not see any flames. At the same time as the smoke appeared, all the lights went out. Later,
the water was turned off.
Alyona describes how she and four women and eight men barricaded themselves inside the fourth
floor office because they could hear people coming to attack them from the corridor. She and the
others shouted out of the window for help, but then the people in the corridor broke down the door.
They were in camouflage and mostly wearing masks, and Alyona believes from the way they spoke that
they were not from Odessa.
She says they threw gas canisters, broken glass and possibly sound-light grenades over the cupboard
those inside had pushed over the entrance.
"We said 'We give up,' and they came in and made everyone lie on the floor," Alyona recalls.
Then, Alyona says, others came who told the first attackers to leave the women alone. There was
an argument, she says, then the second group protected her and her fellow protesters with shields
and took them out by the back door. Alyona believes this second group, who were dressed in ordinary
clothes and were not aggressive, were local pro-Ukrainians.
Meanwhile the Ukrainian State Security Service says toxic chemicals were used in the Trade Unions
House fire, and the violence was orchestrated and financed from outside with the connivance of local
police who, along with emergency services, did not arrive at Kulykove Pole Square until hours after
the clashes began.
Freelance journalist and writer Lily Hyde can be reached at
[email protected].
Editor's Note: This article has been produced with support from the project www.mymedia.org.ua,
financially supported by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Denmark, and implemented by a joint venture
between NIRAS and BBC Media Action.The content in this article may not necessarily reflect the views
of the Danish government, NIRAS and BBC Action Media.
Несколько фактов из этой страшной одесской трагедии. Можно ведь организовать какую-то драку людей,
стрельбу. Они становятся неуправляемыми. Люди забежали в это здание. Хорошо толпа разогретых этих
фанатов-правосеков, но в здании кто-то шнуром задушил беременную женщину. Вы можете себе представить
разозлённого футбольного фаната, который в здании задушит беременную женщину? Это невозможно. Они
могут друг друга убить, ещё кого-то, но беременную женщину шнуром задушить? Зачем это было нужно?
Нужны были какие-то запредельные зверства. Туда уже зашли конкретно люди, которым заранее сказали,
что они должны зверствовать. Для чего это нужно? Чтобы граждане России в ужасе потребовали ввода
войск туда, и российская власть не смогла уже в этой ситуации как-то противиться общественному мнению
России.
Другого объяснения сложно этому найти. Людей как в мышеловку загнали. Эти провокаторы с красным
скотчем на крыше сидели. Сейчас уже кадры все показывают. Зашли через боковое, выламывали дверь,
убивали людей. Почему милиция не вмешалась? Потому что нужно было, чтобы убили.
И. ИЗМАЙЛОВ: Кто заказчик?
Н. СТАРИКОВ: Конечно, американцы.
И. ИЗМАЙЛОВ: Исполнитель. Вот эти подростки, девки, которые готовили коктейли Молотова.
Н. СТАРИКОВ: Были люди, которые шли туда зверствовать и шли вершить, как они понимали, какое-то
правосудие. Зачем они взяли с собой операторов? Потому что этот процесс невозможно организовать.
Операторы были на каком-то одном этаже, а самые главные зверства происходили там, где операторов
не было. То, что там произошло, настолько жутко и настолько мутно, что я боюсь, что мы правду с вами
узнаем лет через 50, а, может быть, даже никогда, потому что киевская власть, конечно, в этом не
заинтересована, но её никто не спрашивает. За ней стоят очень серьёзные западные силы, которые, конечно
же, не допустят, чтобы правда была сейчас обнародована.
И. ИЗМАЙЛОВ: То есть исполнители – это специальные такие люди, которые умеют делать такие зверства?
Н. СТАРИКОВ: Либо умеют, либо могут. Я не знаю. Возможно, с ними случится что-то очень не хорошее
с их точки зрения, но с точки зрения высшего разума, наверное, справедливое, как с Сашко Билым. Обратите
внимание, на Украине всё как-то странно очень происходит. Сашко Билый самозастрелился два раза, когда
у него руки были застёгнуты наручниками за спиной. Дальше они говорят, что люди в этом здании самосожглись.
Уже идут кадры, что там и пожара нет, выламывают огнестрелы. Для полноты картины не хватает одного
заявления – сказать, что мэр Харькова тоже застрелил сам себя из снайперской винтовки.
Вчера писать не мог. Был в шоке. Судя по всему в шоке была вся та территория, которая еще вчера
с утра 2 мая была Украиной. В шок меня повергло не столько сообщение о гибели 50 человек в Одессе
(хотя это само по себе чудовищно. Именно так я пока это воспринимаю. Не поручусь. что такая же реакция
у меня будет через полгода), а отношение к этому чиновников т.н. "Украины". http://yurasumy.livejournal.com/21292.html
Проснувшись утром и проанализировав информацию в сети понял, что "неожиданными" события в Одессе
были не только для меня. А тем более последствия этих событий. Чтобы меня понять предлагаю пройти
по всей цепочке "фактов".
Вечер 2 мая 2014 года в Одессе не предвещал ничего "плохого" ни жителям ни властям города. Одни
знали что "что-то" произойдет, но считали, что все у них под контролем. Другие ни о чем не догадывались.
Шествие "ультрас" и боевиков по улицам Одессы проходило относительно спокойно. Но в районе ул. Греческой
на них напали люди с битами, в экипировке для боя, с георгиевскими лентами и КРАСНЫМИ ПОВЯЗКАМИ на
руках. Вот тут случилась первая странность и "нестыковка" с официальной версией хунты. Точно такие
же красные повязки были на руках НЕКОТОРЫХ сотрудников МВД. Самое интересное, что именно в этом месте,
где находились данные сотрудники и произошел "прорыв" "сепаратистов" к участникам шествия. Также
абсолютно "случайно" именно этот момент был заснят с возвышенной точки, по отношению к происходящему
(как бывший оператор скажу это говорит о том, что снимающий знал сценарий и заранее выбрал позицию
для съемки). Далее последовала короткая стычка в результате которой появились первые жертвы. Причем
стреляли с крыш и из толпы неопознанные "стрелки" (по версии хунты понятно что пророссийские). Потом
быстрый, по команде, отход "боевиков с повязками". После этого люди с повязками со сцены исчезают
(наверное просто сняли повязки и ленточки) и смешались с толпой. "Озверевшая" толпа вместо преследования
явных провокаторов понеслась на Куликово Поле к лагерю "федератов".Там было 200-300 человек в основном
старики и женщины (не более 100 мужчин), которые не могли оказать никакого сопротивления вдесятеро
превосходящих числом нападающим. Поэтому они предпочли отойти в Дом Профсоюзов, где им легче было
бы держать "оборону". До сего момента все шло по плану "хунты" (видимо в план входило повторение
Запорожья и Харькова). Милиция просто отошла и дальше была просто "статистами". Но "опьяненная" первой
кровью толпа уже не смогла остановиться. Вид практически беззащитных противников сделал то, что и
должен был. "Убийцы-каратели" потеряли чувство меры. Далее были только инстинкты. "Сожжение" и "добивание"
уцелевших "федератов" можно объяснить только этим. Это случилось около 22-00 по Киеву (запомните
это время я еще к этому вернусь). Именно в это время губернатор (гауляйтер) Одессы и написал в фейсбук.
что он не видит ничего НЕЗАКОННОГО в действиях толпы (как он наверное сейчас кусает локти). Он то
считал, что все идет по плану. Лагерь "федератов", который он никак не мог разогнать уже несколько
недель по "замыслу операции" уже снесен. Те несколько "трупов", что были на Греческой опять же "по
замыслу" будут "повешены" на "пророссийских боевиков" (те что с ленточками и повязками). Кто же мог
предположить. что озверевшие "онижедети" сожгут "живьем" несколько десятков одесситов, а тех кто
спасся будут добивать на площади, абсолютно не стесняясь того, что их снимают.
А теперь поделюсь некоторыми наблюдениями.
1. Боевики, что сожгли людей были явно "заточены" на то, что "воюют" против русских диверсантов.
По видимому для них тоже было "шоком", что сожгли они таких же одесситов (поджигали не только одесситы,
но и одесситов было много) и что эта "кровь" на их руках (и это им еще аукнется) . Именно поэтому
на стрим-камеру шли съемки внутри здания. И первое что делали каратели это "поиск документов".
Отдельная благодарность за "гражданскую позицию" пользователю etherealstation, который сразу по горячим
следам "опроверг" фейк о том, что среди погибших были "русские наемники":
http://etherealstation.livejournal.com/63026.html
.
2. Действия в Краматорске шли в "синхроне" с Одессой. По видимому именно Одесса должна
была стать "информационной завесой" (напомню по замыслу русские диверсанты устроили побоище с "жертвами"
в Одессе, так что "зачистка" Краматорска якобы оправдана), которая обеспечивала действия карателей
на востоке Украины. Забегая наперед скажу, что как только хунта поняла в какую "историю" их вписали
чересчур ретивые исполнители, карательная операция на востоке как по команде была свернута (по крайней
мере до сего часа активных действий почти нет).\
3. Действия гауляйтера Одессы. Я уже упоминал, что это существо (другого слова после вчерашнего
я к нему применить не могу) "по плану" выдало "индульгенцию" убийцам, объявив, что все что происходит
в Одессе законно:
Оно (существо) не знало, что именно в эти минуты озверевшая толпа сжигает заживо одесситов,
а выживших топчет ногами. Через несколько часов, когда ужас ситуации дошел и до его атрофированных
мозгов последовало другое заявление, в котором оно сказало, что накажет виновных. То есть найдет
стрелочников. Первый уже найден. Это начальник областной милиции. Не скажу, что он не виноват.
Виноват. Но он не главный виновный. Это точно. Вообще вся киевская верхушка до сих пор не "очухалась"
от вчерашнего.Ни Турчинов, ни Яценюк до сих пор не выступили с обращениями и не поехали на "разбор
полетов" (Они однозначно дистанцируются от происходящего. Хотя это и выглядит смешно. Президент
и премьер как-бы ни при чем. Какое же вы тогда правительство). Для них вчерашнее тоже похоже было
"шоком".
4. Среди погибших в Доме Профсоюзов нет боевиков с повязками, что полностью опровергает версию
хунты.
Что теперь последует. Последует радикализация протестов. Одессу теперь уже уберечь от
"горячей фазы" будет сложно (да и другие города тоже). А вот теперь в Одессе должна появиться группа
"Стрелка" (аналог), которая может начать "руководить" процессом. Однозначно многие из бывших граждан
Украины отвернулись от новой власти (особенно на Юго-Востоке). С другой стороны Хунта обезопасила
себя от переворота, который по замыслу должен был состояться сегодня-завтра (Банда Тимошенко еще
сможет какое-то время порулить.). "Контрреволюционеры" получили то что хотели - напились крови (на
время конечно). "Нацики" в данной ситуации будут назначены "стрелочниками" (не сегодня. Позже.),
что также выгодно Турчинову-Тимошенко.
Вот теперь я отвечаю на вопрос. Почему Путин не ввел войска. А зачем? По Донбассу и Луганску ситуацию
стабильна. Население этих регионов после вчерашнего озлоблено против хунты выше всякой меры, что
должно сказаться на результатах "референдума" 11 мая.
Для войск хунты Славянск как был так и остался "крепким орешком". Боевики в Одессе сами начали
"процесс", который никак не мог начаться без внешней помощи. Да и на всем Юго-Востоке похоже всё
только начинается.
combatpig
Re: Провел анализ событий ontimer.livejournal.com/27218.html
2014-05-03 02:56 pm (UTC)
Понимаете, для меня лично все это не важно. И снайперы и поджог и операция в Славянске. Это
война и в ней возможно разное и грязь, и мошенничество тоже. И в РФ при пожарах в дамах престарелых
погибало примерно такое же количество людей...
Важно совсем другое, реакция общества. И когда сжигание людей заживо оправдывают тем, что
это были "неграждане" или люди имеющие другой политический взгляд, то фактически они делят людей
на две категории одним можно, а другие люди второго сорта. Это и есть фашизм.
JESSICA DESVARIEUX, TRNN PRODUCER: Welcome to The Real News Network. I'm Jessica Desvarieux
in Baltimore.
Violence continues to escalate in Ukraine. Just last Friday, more than 40 people were killed in
clashes in the port city of Odessa. Those who were killed were mostly pro-Russian supporters after
a building they were occupying was set ablaze by petrol bombs. The images are quite graphic, so please
be aware that throughout this interview you will be seeing them on a recurring basis.
Now joining us to provide us with more analysis are our two guests.
Joining us from Ukraine is
Nicolai Petro. He's a professor of politics at the University of Rhode Island. He has been in Ukraine
since August as a visiting scholar and has observed the current crisis firsthand.
Also joining us, from Moscow, is Aleksandr Buzgalin. He's a professor of political economy at Moscow
State University.
So, Aleksandr and Nicolai, it's very difficult to decipher who started what,
but at the very least we can break down who these forces are on the street.
Nicolai, who are these groups, and what do they represent?
NICOLAI PETRO, PROF. POLITICS, URI,
VISITING SCHOLAR IN UKRAINE: The two groups that came into conflict in the center of the city,
and then, later on, a little bit further south, are basically categorizable as pro-Maidan and anti-Maidan.
There are a number of smaller groups within them, but essentially that's the division between them.
And the pro-Maidan forces essentially argue that what happened in February 22 was a positive thing,
a legitimate transfer of authority, and they're willing to grant credibility to the present interim
government. The anti-Maidan views what happened after, on February 22 and most of the subsequent
acts of the current interim government as illegitimate.
DESVARIEUX: So, essentially you
were telling me earlier, though, that there was a soccer game and that's where a lot of this tension
arose.
PETRO: Odessa is fairly evenly divided among these two groups, although I'd say the largest
constituency is one that is not terribly concerned with the politics of Kiev. It would really rather
enjoy the beautiful scenery, allow tourism to flourish, and have a good and prosperous lifestyle
here in this cosmopolitan port city.
But what happened on May 2 was that in addition to these two
local constituencies, there was an addition of football rowdies--soccer rowdies, actually. There
was a game on the 2nd between the Kharkiv team and the Odessa team. And they had agreed or coordinated
with the pro-Maidan civil defense forces to hold a march in the center of the city to support national
unity. And they put that out on social networks. And so everyone knew in the city where they were
going to be, including the anti-Maidan forces, and they came to the same place, eager for a fight,
and that's exactly what happened.
DESVARIEUX: Alright. Aleksandr, I want to ask you about Odessa's history in Russia. Can you
just explain a little bit about the relationship between Odessa and Moscow?
ALEKSANDR BUZGALIN,
PROF. POLITICAL ECONOMY, MOSCOW STATE UNIV.: Yes, but first of all I will not agree on many points
with Nicolai about events in Odessa. It's not simply conflict between pro- and anti-Maidan forces.
In Odessa we have thousands of right-wing representatives of so-called right bloc, and they are openly
supporting pro-fascist groups such as Bandera and so on [and past and now]. And they had majority
in the streets. And because they were real hooligans, very dangerous for population. So-called people's
/druʒin/--I don't know--people's team, if it's possible to say so, self-organization of people who
are simply [incompr.] these fascist groups came to stop these provocations and direct attack on the
peaceful people. But they had only a few hundred people, and they were beaten. Police was withdraw
from this conflict, and they were trying to show that they are outside of the conflict.
And when this anti-fascist, I can say, forces were terribly attacked, they came back to the house
of trade unions, and they were blockaded in this house. Then it was direct fire, shooting, from these
right-wingers, right bloc representatives. There are a lot of evidences, photos and direct video,
which showing that machine guns were used against defenders blockaded in this house. And then I send
you photos and video, and we have our friends who were inside this building. They were beaten, killed,
directly killed when building was occupied. It was used [, napalm,] against people. They were, I
don't know, using fire against these people. And this is directly right-wing nationalist attack.
DESVARIEUX: What's your take--.
BUZGALIN: And I cannot talk without emotions about this. I'm sorry.
DESVARIEUX: I understand. Nicolai, what's your take on that? Is that how it's being interpreted
in Ukraine?
PETRO: The national media in Ukraine is putting a very different spin on this. Namely,
the national channels are arguing that what happened in the center was self-defense by the pro-Maidan
forces, and that somehow they then went down to the trade union building, which is about a mile and
a half from the center, and decided as a revenge for the deaths in the center to get rid of the tent
city there. And they basically then don't discuss how the fire began.
The local media here in Odessa presents a much more nuanced view, with the notion that indeed
many of the things that Professor Buzgalin has said is exactly the view that is often mentioned here
among people and the local media, namely, that this was orchestrated by groups close to the right
sector, and that both--perhaps both of these attacks were organized beforehand in order to provoke
deaths.
DESVARIEUX: Alright. Aleksandr, I want to get a sense of how Russia is responding, 'cause
we've heard from the Russian foreign minister that they would intervene if the needed to, if there
was a humanitarian reason to intervene. And I'm sure they might be making this case now with this
incident in Odessa. So, first of all, do you think they're justified in making that case? And if
they are justified, isn't this very similar to what they often criticize the United States for doing,
which is just intervening when they have a humanitarian reason to intervene?
BUZGALIN: So it's many--you put many questions. But first of all I want to stress that
what I said, this is not official information of Russian main TV channels or news agencies. This
is direct information which we received from our comrades from Odessa. And our comrades, whom we
know personally very well, who participated in our events in Moscow a few months ago, were beaten.
Their friends were killed. And this is direct evidence of people who participated in these events.
And this is brutal and bloody picture.
Second, very important, in Russia we do not have any information that Russian troops will intervene
in the events in Ukraine, in the south and east of Ukraine. By the way, Odessa is part of the civil
war. Now we have real civil war. This is not simply confrontation or something like that of pro-Maidan
and anti-Maidan people. This is the beginning of civil war in Ukraine. And I do not think that it
will be direct intervention of Russian troops in Ukraine. This is, I think, simply impossible.
There is another aspect which is important. There are a lot of Russian people who wants to go
to this country, to Ukraine, and to help in the struggle against fascists. And this is the feelings
among Russians, and this is common atmosphere. And now government is asking not to go to Ukraine
and not to go to support these people. And the Ukrainian people from south of Ukraine, east of Ukraine,
they ask to help with money, because they simply do not have a penny to buy gasoline for their machines
to make patrol--patrolling--I don't know how to say in English--to move in the cities to control
situation. They don't have money for gasoline. They don't have money for medicine. They don't have
money for food. And in this situation, to say that there is intervention of Russian state, I think
this is direct lie. I think even it's necessary to help them, at least with some money, but this
is another aspect and this is my personal opinion.
A few words about history. This is important. Odessa became part of Russian Empire 200 years ago,
even more, and all time it was very specific city with Russian traditions, but very specific Russian
traditions. It was and it is a lot of Jews in Odessa, and very special Odessa language, special Odessa
anecdotes. And Brighton Beach in New York is a small Odessa because of many immigrants from this
city who came to United States and other foreign countries. So this is very specific region, but
which is very far from Ukraine, Ukrainian language and Ukrainian traditions. And, as many other places
of former Russia, it became artificially part of Ukraine because of different reasons in different
periods of Soviet history.
It doesn't mean that Odessa must be outside of Ukraine.
And, by the way, there is big [incompr.] discussion and big discussion also about words, because
if you say that separatist bandits are fighting against democratic government which is representing
peoples of Ukraine--peoples, not people--different peoples of Ukraine, this is one case. If you say
that fighters for human, national, and cultural rights in the East and South of Ukraine [promotes]
just normal federal system of organization of this space in their country and they want to have real
dialog and real democratic elections and real rights for the self-determination of regions, some
independence, not even as separate state, this is absolutely another context and another discourse,
if I can use postmodernist language. So this is also important to understand.
And one more important
aspect. Now in Russia I think all people who has any feelings about this, any, I don't know, political
feelings, they're spending all time with internet information, not even TV, but internet information,
because we have direct opportunity to hear radio talks between mobile groups in East of Ukraine,
we have opportunity to have permanent new information and internet from Odessa, different groups.
We have a lot of internet information from Ukraine--and, by the way, very different information.
Very important: in Germany it was 40,000 demonstration [incompr.] Soviet Union, not even Russia,
just a few days ago. In website of /ɑːltərnəˈtiv/, alternatives dot RU, you can find video of this
huge rally. And there are a lot of speeches on the different meetings and the, I don't know, demonstrations
in Berlin and other cities. The same in Greece and many other countries. So this is international
critique of situation. And it's necessary to make real analysis. And I'm very glad that you are doing
this, because typically there is too simplistic picture in the Western mass media. In Russia, I think
[incompr.] by the way, also we have a simplistic picture, but at least we do not have direct lie.
DESVARIEUX: Aleksandr, I want to get back to your point that you made about Ukraine being
in a civil war right now. Nicolai, you're actually in Ukraine. First of all, do you agree with that?
And secondly, how much is this really being driven by ultranationalists on both sides?
PETRO: I'm cautious about using the phrase civil war, because to me that conjures
up images of two clear sides confronting each other and having fairly clear objectives and organizations.
There's a period in Ukrainian history--actually, several periods, the latest one at the turn of the
century, when there was simply a lot of local groups, not terribly organized, but each of them trying
to defend their own turf. And I think--I've read also on the internet that some analysts have compared
this not so much to a clear-cut civil war as /maxəˈnoʂəna/, a period of time when simply a sense
of disorganization, lack of trust in the government, a feeling of one's own vulnerability. And as
a result of this vulnerability, people are starting to arm themselves and look to defend themselves,
because they cannot trust and they don't believe that the government will be able to do so. So I
anticipate more of these sorts of conflicts, but on a fairly small scale, not really united across
the entire sweep of the East and South of the country.
DESVARIEUX: But how much is this really being driven by more of the right-wing ultranationalist
Ukrainian factions?
PETRO: Yeah. I would say, and the latest polling available from the Kyiv International
Institute of Sociology in April confirms that one of the dominant themes of why people are skeptical
and fearful of the government in Kiev and willing to lend their, at least, some support to the federalist
movement in the East and the South is this fear that the right-wing nationalists are, behind the
scenes, able to manipulate outcomes to their advantage, even if they're not sort of the first people
that one sees on television. They're not the spokesmen, they're not the prime minister or the president.
But nevertheless, they have a firm grasp over the security forces in Ukraine, and they're very fearful
of having that extend into their regions and then not being able to control the situation locally.
DESVARIEUX: Aleksandr, I'm going to turn to you and ask a hypothetical question. If the
intention of Russia and Ukraine, America, Europe, you know, all parties directly or indirectly involved,
was to really de-escalate the tensions there in Ukraine, what would your approach be? What kind of
policies would you be advocating for?
BUZGALIN: No, this is very complex question, of course.
But first of all I want to tell a few words about beginning of civil war, why I use this very
dangerous words, I can say, even. Of course civil war, it's not simple struggle of two paths, two
wings. In Russian Empire, it's Russian Empire. When we had civil war, it was a lot of different groups--anarchists,
bandits, [white] supporters of monarchy, supporters of, I don't know, liberal model, supporters of
Bolsheviks, Mensheviks. It was very complex picture and permanent, terrible, bloody actions. The
same we have at the beginning. We have the beginning of the same situation in Ukraine.
But there is more or less consolidation. East and South of Ukraine has military groups and organized
groups who are not one army. They do not have one leader, they do not have one military organization.
This is groups of people who partly has armaments, partly has nothing, and a civil population who
supports them. There are a lot of such people, and young people, not only old one, women, even teenagers.
And they are--they simply want to have this federal system of organizations. They want to have Russian
language as second or first among--with two languages.
By the way, I had very interesting direct interview with one of the leaders of organized group
of defenders in Donetsk region, and he is speaking very well Ukrainian, and he likes Ukrainian songs,
and their groups like these songs. But they want to have two languages. They want to have self-management
in their region, even in Russia, which is not very democratic country at all--and I was and I am
very critical about democracy inside my country, but even in Russia we have federal system. We have
in some republics two languages. And this is not tragedy for nobody. I do not--I know why Kiev authorities
do not want to have these referendums and federalism, because they're afraid to lose support in one
half of Ukraine. And this is real threat for them. They have very small bases.
The same with right-wingers. I agree here with Nicolai that right-wingers, these semi-fascist
groups, nationalist groups, they are not represented very well in the government or among members
of parliament in modern parliament of Ukraine. But they're only one real force, and they're fighting
and they're killing people. And this is very bloody force. That's why people are extremely angry
against them in many regions. And now, even more and more, they are angry inside Central and even
Western Ukraine.
A few words about escalation of conflict and possible scenarios.
DESVARIEUX: Yes.
BUZGALIN: So the best variant for me will be peaceful solution of this situation. And here
I think both Russian and Western authorities, diplomats, presidents must sit together. And I think
it's good idea to put them in one room and not to open this room, and do not give them food, as when
[the pope] is--when there is elections of [pope], and wait till they went--they will decide something
exact and will tell to everybody openly what they decide. And the decision can be--it can be decision
that modern and new Ukrainian authorities will tell no to right wing and the right bloc, and took
all armament from this bloc, and simply will tell they're criminals. Then, second decision in this
situation will be disarmament of Eastern people. If everybody will tell parliament of Ukraine, president
of United States, president of Russia, and so on, we guarantee that it will be federal system, new
constitution, and open discussion, in this situation it's possible /toˈweɪ/ that situation will be
solved peacefully.
Now we have escalation of violence. We have more and more tanks, armed vehicles, different weapons,
aircrafts from their side of Ukraine, and here in Russia we have a lot of records of English-language
negotiations among armed groups. And from another side, Russian--how to say the /braˈvoɪtzə/? Peoples
who want to--.
PETRO: Volunteer.
BUZGALIN: Volunteers. Yeah, I'm sorry. Sometimes it difficult for me to find words. I'm
really [crosstalk]
DESVARIEUX: No, it's fine. Continue.
BUZGALIN: Yeah. So these volunteers, they want to come to Ukraine, and they possibly will
come from different regions. And more and more workers from enterprises, from manufactories, will
come to these groups who want to protect their cities and their villages.
And one more important aspect. We had direct interviews with militants and leaders of different
groups in Donetsk region, and they directly said that they do not have any material support from
big bourgeoisie of Ukraine, both East bourgeoisie, West bourgeoisie, Central bourgeoisie [incompr.]
They do not have no support from any oligarch at all. They have terrible shortage of money. They
have only resources which ordinary people are bringing them--food, gasoline, medicine, and so on.
And that oligarchs now directly or indirectly supporting Kiev government. So this also economic and
social basis for the conflict, and it's impossible to withdraw, to forget about this problem.
Also important, that East of Ukraine, this is industrial region. This is a region of huge, big
steel, coal, and other enterprises, coal miners, other enterprises. And this is also--but in some
aspects, class conflict, because supporters of Ukraine government now, this is so-called middle class,
and this is not majority of Ukrainian people, and not majority in Russia. This is 20 percent of population
who has incomes more or less the same as in the United States middle class. And they're mainly supporters
of modern government, plus oligarchs who are now simply afraid that it will be redistribution of
property if in the East of Ukraine, where all huge enterprises are located--they're afraid of redistribution
of property. They're afraid that their power will go down. So this is also a background for the conflict,
plus culture and languages. This is important.
If Kiev government will tell that in the South and East of Ukraine, Russian language will be first
language, together with Ukrainian, it will solve at least 30 percent of contradictions. [crosstalk]
guarantees of self-management, and real opportunity to make elections and referendums.
Simply to make open referendums with foreign observers from any country, this is requirement of
these people, nothing else. And I think this is necessary steps to solve the contradiction without
huge blood--.
DESVARIEUX: Okay. Nicolai, since you just heard all that, just very quickly--we don't have
much time.
PETRO: Exactly. Yeah. Before Professor Buzgalin's very good suggestions can be implemented,
however, basically two things need to happen. One is there needs to be recognition in the West that
these are really indigenous problems in the Ukraine, not brought in from Russia or any other country.
These are problems that come from within Ukrainian society.
Consequently, the West needs to stop criticizing Russia gratuitously, and instead focus on the
real problems, which are internal. And it needs to then recognize that Russia must be part of the
solution as Ukraine's greatest, largest economic partner and neighbor.
DESVARIEUX: Alright. Nicolai Petro and Aleksandr Buzgalin, thank you both for joining us.
PETRO: Thank you.
DESVARIEUX: And, of course, you can follow us @therealnews on Twitter, and you can send
me questions and comments @Jessica_Reports.
Thank you so much for watching The Real News Network.
David Pear
One cannot help but have the feeling that we are about to witness a human tragedy on the scale
of what has been occurring in Syria.
The question of what do Ukrainians want is more a question of what does Obama & Co. want. We
do not see any effort on the part of Obama to be conciliatory. To the contrary, Obama seems more
belligerent than ever. The New York Times made it very clear that for whatever reasons, Obama
wants nothing less than a New Cold War with Russia: "In Cold War Echo, Obama Strategy Writes Off
Putin" April 19, 2014 [ http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04... ]. This article by White House Correspondent
for the NYT Peter Baker appears to be a heads up directly from the White House.
Exactly why Obama wants a New Cold War with Russia is left vague in the Baker article. Perhaps
Obama is just tired of Putin getting the better of him. First Putin undermined Obama's desire
to invade Syria with a "limited" attack of Tomahawk missiles. Then there was the Obama anger over
Edward Snowden. Obama said he was not going to scramble jets to catch Snowden and then he did
just that by bringing down the plane of the President Evo Morales of Bolivia. As if Obama was
not irate enough, Putin then snatched up Crimea out from under Obama's nose.
Now Obama wants to make Russia, Putin and Russians pariahs in the international community.
There is now little to none incentive for Putin to try and be conciliatory. Yet Putin has not
given up entirely and has offered a sound plan for calming the situation in Ukraine and it is
the same as put forth here by Professor Aleksandr Buzgalin. The only hope left for Ukraine may
be a federation that recognizes the ethnic-Russian rights in East and South Ukraine. Obama and
Kiev are not likely to agree to that as they fear that it will result in the eventual loss of
East and South Ukraine to Russia.
The hatred of Russia in West Ukraine is now at a boiling point. Their hate has blinded them
to their own best interests. By aligning with the EU all Ukrainians can expect a policy of austerity,
cuts in social programs, diminished pensions, layoffs of civil servants, currency devaluation,
higher prices for everything and cuts in Russian aid and discounted energy prices. Many of these
policies have already been put into place by Kiev and there will be more.
In the East and South Ukraine the people fear repression, ethnic cleansing and genocide. The
fire in the Trade Unions House in Odessa confirmed their fears. It had a symbolic reminder of
how fascist Germany acted during WW2. The memories of Hitler's SS and Ukrainian fascists rounding
up and burning civilians to death in building is still fresh in the Russian psyche. [See the Khatyn
massacre: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... ] It reconfirmed there worst fears of the Kiev government.
Many East and South Ukrainians say they are now "saddling their horses" for a civil war. They
are ready to defend their homes and their lives against the coming "fascists".
Russian-Americans are also becoming frightened. They fear that the same thing could happen
to them that happened to the Japanese-Americans in WW2. Many Russian-Americans are already starting
to feel the sting of ostracism and discrimination. They are acutely aware of the growing anti-Russian
rhetoric. They are concerned about their jobs and businesses. They are growing suspicious of slights,
real or imagines, from American friends and neighbors. Russian immigrants are growing cynical
of the freedom and democracy that brought them to America.
We can argue all we want to about who destabilized Ukraine. Russians in Russia, Ukraine and
America lay the blame squarely on America. They watch and read the American main stream media
with disgust. They see the statements from Obama & Co. and the main stream media as biased propaganda.
It no longer matters so much whether they approve of Putin or not. They feel personally under
attack.
The American people have yet to ask what is in all this for them. Many if not most Americans
still believe the anti-Russian propaganda from the First Cold War and have easily transformed
it to the Second Cold War. Many Americans are ready to believe that Putin is Hitler. Never mind
that the results could be catastrophic financially and literally for the American people. Never
mind that a war weary American people are being blindly marched into harms way again.
The politicians again think that they can control events. They have proved too many times that
they cannot. Events have often spun horribly out of control. Obama has bragged publicly that the
Russian army is second-rate and could easily be defeated. We are told this in every new hostility
and war that it will be a "cake walk".
The American people best start asking themselves and their leaders what is this really all
about. They need to ask why America is trying to control events halfway around the world. They
need to ask what is the American national security interest in Ukraine. They need to ask why they
should be asked to make future sacrifices for another possible foreign war. They need to ask why
it is necessary for two nuclear powers to risk war.
The American people better ask these questions soon because events are about to spin out of
control. It is not too late. Obama could stop this insanity before it is too late.
David Pear > David Pear
Today May 7, 2014 it is reported that 30,000 Ukrainian soldiers have surrounded the far eastern
city of Slavyansk. They are not letting civilians escape. They are threatening to destroy the
entire city. Obama & Co. are doing nothing to prevent this escalation. They are encouraging it.
Obama & Co. want their Ukrainian civil war. They know that they will never be able to control
Ukraine without cleansing it of Ukrainian-Russians. They cannot do that without the cover of a
war. They also want to be able to further isolate Russia and demonize Russia and to be able to
point the finger at a "Russian invasion".
Putin has promised Russian-Ukrainians that he will not abandon them regardless of the cost.
Such a promise has a strong meaning to Russians. If a massacre of civilians is threatened it will
likely result in a Russian response.
Just as Obama does not control everything the US does, neither does Putin control everything
Russia does. Putin must also deal with the political forces in Russia. This is yet another cause
of how events get out of control. War is always a roll of the dice. Once a war is started it takes
on a life of its own. It becomes uncontrollable.
The crisis in Ukraine may soon be past the point of no return.
Michael > David Pear
A civil war in Ukraine should not spread to others countries, but maybe force Russia to intervene.
I don't see NATO replying in such; but already the US commander of NATO is talking of having permanent
deployment in all neighbouring nations.
So US is de facto becoming the protector of Europe, and thus Europe big market its protectorate.
On the other hand Putin would like very much to play for time. When the people in the West of
Ukraine feels the squeeze of the FMI restructuration and austérity, the lost of jobs, the landgrabs
in agricultural area (already started), the desmembrement of the social free services and the
rule by corrupt ologarch as before; Putin knows pretty well that at next election a national governement
friendly to Russia will bring back Ukraine in the Russian fold.
And that may be why Obama, Kerry and Briethlove (US Nato commander) are putting more fuel on
the ambers of civil war. Better partition that nothing as always be the Empire solution.
of course war is also good business, ask Dick Cheney (or Tony Blair).
david > David Pear
David what you speak holds much truth and accuracy but the "Why?" you ask is the essential
question, not only to ask but also answer. why the insatiable need for more more more from proleteriate's
and elites alike. MOST EVERYONE EVERYWHERE. WHY!!!
Your clearly aware of many facts at play here but hearing from you WHY they are at play would
be most interesting. Do that might transcend the national/political divide that is the usual of
such discussions. And then some challenging answers will be interesting to explore too.
David Pear > david
Yes the "why".
It is why the US is involved in every regime change in the world. Any country and any leader
that is non-compliant with US foreign policy objectives becomes a victim of violent civil wars
that have cost millions of lives and tens of millions of refugees.
Kerry took time out from the Ukraine crisis to take a trip to Africa. While visiting the Democratic
Republic of Congo and S. Sudan he had time to lecture Putin about interfering in Ukraine.
How hypocritical that Kerry would be lecturing Putin from the scene of the US crimes in Africa.
In the DR Congo the US is providing political, economical, and military support that has caused
over 10 million peoples lives in genocidal proportions. In Sudan the US backed the succession
of South Sudan. Now the US is supporting a regime change in S. Sudan. In Rwanda the US backed
the invasion by Uganda.
The motive in Africa is to drive out the French, Belgians, Chinese and Russians. Africa is
fantastically rich in natural resources, oil, minerals, strategic metals, agriculture land, markets
and people. The US wants to control them and exploit them.
In the Middle East the US has co-opted the Arab Spring. There is now a US backed military government
that overthrew a democratically elected President Morsi. Hundreds of Morsi supporters are now
scheduled for execution. Obama and Kerry are silent.
Gaddafi was overthrown by the US illegally exceeding its UN authority for a no fly zone. Now
Libya is in turmoil from the US backed al Qaeda fighters that they backed to oust Gaddafi.
Then there is Syria where the US is funding and supporting the same al Qaeda fighters that
have destroyed the country and caused a human tragedy. Why? Not because Assad is a bad guy which
he is. It is because Assad refused to allow an oil and gas pipeline for Qatar to take their oil
and gas to European markets.
Venezuela, Argentina and Bolivia are also on the US list of pariah states. Why? Because then
have natural resources and will not bend to the US will.
And on goes the list. The US foreign policy is quite simple. It is to promote US corporate
interests all over the world. That means putting into play natural resources for US corporations
to exploit. It also means that the US has to expand and control its empire.
The goal insanely is nothing short of World Domination. Any country that challenges US world
domination is an enemy. That makes Russia and China enemies of the US.
Putin is a double enemy. Russia under Putin has recovered from an economic and military basket
case. It is a threat and competitor to the US for natural resources all over the world and to
US hegemony. Putin has politically embarrassed Obama and for that he will never be forgiven.
Russia is also blessed with tremendous natural resources. The US wants them. They will not
stop until they get them. Ukraine is a means to an end in Russia. Ukraine also is rich in natural
resources to develop. The US does not care if Ukraine is destroyed in the process and millions
of people are killed.
The US foreign policy has nothing to do with helping people. They don't care about the people
at all. Millions of deaths mean nothing to them. As Zbigniew Brzezinski has said "It is infinitely
easier to kill a million people than to control them." Madame Albright has said that "one-half
million dead babies in Iraq was worth it if it furthered US foreign policy goals".
Of course since people mean nothing to these people neither does democracy. It is all just
propaganda. It doesn't matter if a country is democratic or not. It they don't comply with US
wishes they are dead men walking.
If a victim country is not a democracy then the US argues that it should be. If it is a democracy
then it is not democratic enough. And if it is a US ally then it need not be democratic nor democratic
enough.
Reiner Wilhelms > David Pear
Jeez, David, reading this all in one list is pretty horrifying, but it is truth. How to reconcile
this with all the friendly neighbors that live in my or your neighborhood? What's the "inner thing"
that drives this, what kind of a consciousness has such a beast?
I may have a few little clues here, probably not enough: When my country, long before I was
born, occupied France, many Germans were at the same time somehow in awe of French culture, wine,
cheese, even music and language (to this day.) The soldiers sent back home packages with plundered
goods, cheese and wine. The old folks got by that time a raise in retirement checks, and in fact,
Germany had one of the most advanced retirement systems in Europe then. When they first disappeared
and later exterminated more and more Jews, and turned small and larger businesses owned by them
into German property, it was a boom for small business. The displaced, and deported and later
killed Jewish and workers of other ethnicity as well as a lot of activists, communists, and social
democrats, no matter what race - all that was a big part of providing near full employment. German
steel and coal was blossoming, and great capitals flowed into the country, including lots of American
capital. Lots of jobs were created by building the highway system on which later the tanks could
go faster to project power. And life was "great" for a while as all the old faded black-and-white
family photos attest, and so many old Germans simply skipped the memory of the war that followed
and took only the delusional dream into their graves of having once lived in the heydays of the
3rd Reich. I recall several old relatives, now long dead, who continued to rave about the great
days before the war. There was a hush about it, but they couldn't shut up telling me, as a kid,
nice stories about how great and peaceful - no crimes! - those times were. And they charmed me
as a boy how I (blond and blue eyes) could have been the dream of a Nazi boy for the girls (it
once made me feel good, and that memory feels weird). Except there was one beloved aunt, also
long gone, who may have saved me from this idiocy. She took it all apart for me and my siblings
early on, and while the other geezers may have protested, she told us all about how the biggest
idiots of the village raised to the top as little local Nazi bosses, and about the agony that
everyone felt who was not in complete line with the party.
So I guess it must be similar here, even though there is less of that agony if you dance out
of line - not too far though! But other than that, there is a plenty enough Americans (but also
foreigners like me) who directly or indirectly benefit from simply living in the belly of this
beast, often without even being directly aware - or positively interested, and it's not just the
privileged and the plutocrats, but also and especially those who suck up to the plutocrats and
believe that this is a meritocracy, holding on to an delusional dream which keeps them aspiring
to raise further in the ranks.
And with all the loot that comes from sucking the planet dry a lot of sycophants can be kept
happy.
neoconbuster
This is the first Program I see in the west, that mentions that those people that occupied
the building in Odessa were intentionally torched alive. The video evidence is overwhelming folks.
Shame on the Western media.
You can clearly watch in the video below and many other, that several Molotov Cocktails were
thrown to windows and doors, That people where shot so they couldn't scape, and those burned people
who escaped were hardly beaten after that.
What I see very dangerous and a provocation to Russia, is that after US officials (Brennan
and Biden) visited Kiev, the government has launched a Military crackdown including Armed Vehicles
and Tanks against those Anti Kiev protesters. Note that president Yanukovich (The new boogie man)
never employed the Military against similar demonstrations by Ukrainians.
Only the Western media and fools like Warren Metzier, blame these recent evens on Putin. There
are eight million Ethnic Russians in Ukraine a country of about forty millions total, most of
them living in Eastern and Southern Ukraine, and they want to be respected by their government.
Neo, thanks for you vote of confidence. I watched you video, and there is ABSOLUTELY no evidence
that proUkrainian activists set the fire or harmed anyone. You know that RT is pure propaganda,
makes Fox News look like the epitome of judiciousness, And you watch it, not because you want
reliable news, but so you have ammunition to support your propaganda about the US and the EU.
You know that you have no personal experience about the country, so have no way to distinguish
between lies and truth. You can call me all the names you want. I am very happy waiting until
all this is over, the Ukraine is making progress toward being a civli country, and then the informed
historians will tell us the truth. And we shall see whether you or I were closer to the truth.
Michael > neoconbuster
You are absolutely rigth
I don't know if it is the same video the one I watched was shorter, but you could distingly
see the petrole bombs throwed from outside throught the windows.
The shameless propaganda of the media and press such as LeMonde, the Guardian, etc. keeping
putting the blame on Putin, makes me puke.
And presto a "conspiracy theory" after all if it is russian petrole it's russian, no ?
By the way, some jews have been reported among the casualties of this mass autodafe, has anybody
more (reliable) informations ?
Фракция Партии регионов возлагает всю полноту ответственности за карательную экспедицию на востоке
страны, за заживо сожженных людей в Одессе лично на и.о. Президента Украины, главнокомандующего Вооруженных
сил Украины А.Турчинова, Министра внутренних дел А.Авакова и главу СБУ В.Наливайченко.
Об этом заявил народный депутат Украины, член парламентской фракции ПР Николай Левченко во время
брифинга в кулуарах ВР во вторник, 6 мая.
"Только что с третьей попытки с использованием чужих карточек для голосования, голосуя за своих
коллег, депутаты трех фракций - "Батькивщины", "Свободы", "УДАРа" и примкнувшие к ним тушки - приняли
решение провести закрытое заседание для того, чтобы скрыть от страны, от народа правду обо всем том,
что сегодня происходит на юго-востоке Украины. Фракция Партии регионов возлагает всю полноту ответственности
за карательную экспедицию на востоке страны, за заживо сожженных людей в Одессе лично на исполняющего
обязанности главнокомандующего Вооруженными силами Украины А.Турчинова, на Министра внутренних дел
А.Авакова и на главу СБУ В.Наливайченко. Мы требуем немедленной отставки этих трех должностных лиц.
У наших коллег - депутатов трех фракций, которые составляют большинство, - сегодня есть возможность
немедленно избрать нового спикера, к которому автоматически перейдут обязанности временно исполняющего
обязанности Президента и обязанности верховного главнокомандующего. Немедленно назначить нового руководителя
СБУ и Министра внутренних дел, перед которыми поставить задачу ликвидировать все незаконные вооруженные
бандформирования неонацистского толка, которые сегодня орудуют в Украине. Немедленно приступить к
началу конституционной реформы по полнейшей децентрализации власти для того, чтобы навсегда закрепить
раздел полномочий между Киевом и регионами", - сказал депутат.
"Первое и второе условия обеспечат безопасность на юго-востоке страны и помогут избежать дальнейшего
кровопролития", - добавил политик.
Сергей Лавров встретился с ветеранами по случаю Дня Победы в Москве
Фото: Сергей Кузнецов / РИА Новости
Глава российского МИД Сергей Лавров назвал проявлением чистого фашизма трагедию, произошедшую
в Одессе 2 мая. Об этом, как сообщает РИА Новости,
министр иностранных дел заявил в ходе церемонии возложения цветов по случаю Дня Победы.
"Многие годы в Европе уже закрывают глаза на то, как эта идеология (фашизма) обретает новых сторонников,
как ее проводники вербуют все новых последователей, устраивают марши в честь бывших эсэсовцев, признанных
преступниками Нюрнбергским трибуналом. Но то, что происходит сейчас, это уже не просто марши с лозунгами,
воспевающими нацистских преступников - это уже проявление фашизма вживую. То, что произошло в Одессе
второго мая - это чистый фашизм", - сказал Лавров.
Министр подчеркнул, что Россия не позволит замалчивать факты о произошедшей трагедии и продолжит
добиваться огласки всей правды.
"Мы не позволим замести под ковер факты, как это сейчас пытается делать правящая коалиция, закрыв
расследование от общественности. Будем добиваться правды, будем добиваться того, чтобы все свидетельства,
которые были предоставлены очевидцами, и которые говорят о том, что масштабы трагедии замалчиваются
властями сознательно, чтобы ни одна частица правды не осталась нерасследованной, и не осталась не
преданной гласности", - заявил он.
2 мая в Одессе произошли столкновения между сторонниками "Евромайдана" и футбольными фанатами
с одной стороны и пророссийскими активистами - с другой. В ходе массовых беспорядков "майдановцы"
сожгли лагерь ополченцев на площади Куликова поля, а затем загорелся Дом профсоюзов, в котором находились
десятки сторонников федерализации. Согласно официальным данным, погибли 46 человек, более 200 пострадали.
По неофициальным данным, в тот день без вести пропали еще 48 человек, почти два десятка тел в городских
моргах остаются неопознанными.
По одной версии, одесской милиции ранее был дан приказ "не трогать киевлян из сотен самообороны"."Была
договоренность между ПС ("Правым сектором") и одесской милицией, что, мол, самообороновцы получат
возможность сами разобраться с пророссийскими активистами. Если бы была команда, мы бы разогнали
этот цирк уже через 15 минут", - цитируют неназванного милиционера
"Вести".
В какой-то момент сторонникам "Майдана" удалось захватить пожарную машину, которую они решили
использовать для разгона оппонентов, но те блокировали спецтехнику на Греческой улице, когда с ее
помощью "майдановцы" прорывали баррикады и собирались продвинуться на площадь Куликова Поля, чтобы
разгромить палаточный лагерь. Позже, уже без пожарной машины, проукраинские активисты прорвались
на Куликово Поле и сожгли баррикады "антимайдановцев".
На видео, распространившихся в сети после событий 2 мая, видно, что пожар в Доме профсоюзов начался
практически одновременно с тем, как вспыхнул лагерь сторонников федерализации. Временной разрыв составил
едва ли пару минут. Одновременно с возгоранием основного входа пламя появляется и в окне пятого этажа.
Выжившие из числа ополченцев рассказывают, что изначально они даже не собирались занимать здание
- к этому их вынудил численный перевес противников.
"Командование решило обороняться в здании Дома профсоюзов (что было большой ошибкой, имхо), но
даже двери здания сказали не ломать пока не подойдут правосеки. Мол, "а вдруг они суда не придут,
а мы ворвались в здание". Стали лихорадочно пытаться возвести хоть какие-то укрепления. Тем временем
пришло сообщение, что правосеки движутся к нам по проспекту Победы. Двери в здание таки сломали,
флаги и фотографии погибших беркутовцев мы унесли в здание, висеть остался лишь флаг Украины, Одессы
и "Народной Альтернативы"", - цитирует
"Таймер" блог одного из пророссийских активистов, участника событий (авторский стиль высказывания
сохранен - прим. "Ленты.ру").
По версии выживших защитников Дома профсоюзов, огонь был сосредоточен в центральной части помещения,
в районе главного входа. Как сообщает командир третьего взвода народной дружины (структуры, созданной
в феврале этого года под эгидой МВД для обеспечения правопорядка в Одессе) Александр Макаренко, горела
нижняя баррикада, первый этаж и лестница. При этом потушить огонь собственными силами не представлялось
возможным - в здании была отключена вода, и ни в одном из кабинетов не было обязательных по технике
безопасности огнетушителей.
Спустя 40 минут после начала пожара на место происшествия приехала пожарная бригада и начала ликвидировать
возгорание. Все это время возле Дома профсоюзов держали осаду "майдановцы". Различные источники сообщают,
что они помогали выбираться из горящего здания пророссийским активистам, но при этом спасали их только
после утвердительного ответа на вопрос, одесситы они или нет. При этом в любом случае спасенных избивали.
Также СМИ сообщают, что активисты "За единую Украину" порезали два пожарных шланга, чем сильно усложнили
работу пожарных.
По данным
прокуратуры Одесской области, в результате пожара погибли 46 человек. Из приблизительно двухсот
человек, обратившихся за помощью, были госпитализированы 124. По официальным данным, все люди погибли
от удушения угарным газом.
"Таймер" со ссылкой на сотрудников правоохранительных органов и судмедэкспертов
сообщает о 116 погибших (блогеры
приводят сведения о 217 погибших,
причем большая часть трупов якобы была обнаружена позже в подвале здания). По версии издания,
коронеры уже завершили исследование тел погибших и в настоящее время устанавливают их личности. Отмечается,
что как минимум шесть человек погибли в результате огнестрельных ранений.
При том что основной пожар был на первом этаже, обгоревшие трупы следователи находили на втором
и третьем этажах, где не было открытого огня. На фотографиях с места происшествия,
приведенных блогерами, видно,
что наполовину обугленные тела не соответствуют обстановке - в помещениях зачастую нет признаков
горения. Кроме того, часть тел имеет признаки смертельных огнестрельных ранений, другая - испачкана
порошковым огнетушителем (которых, по показаниям выживших, не было в здании).
Версии о намеренном массовом сожжении людей заживо, основанные лишь на фотографиях и новостных
хрониках, действительно могут показаться на редкость жестокими (если не сказать безумными) человеку,
оторванному от внутриукраинского дискурса. Однако несмотря на то, что произошедшее в Одессе, по всей
очевидности, стало результатом общей агрессии, а не преднамеренного преступления, тезис, что погибшие
якобы получили по заслугам, нашел поддержку среди политического истеблишмента Украины.
Так, депутат Верховной Рады Леся Оробец на своей странице в Facebook
назвала сожжение людей в Доме профсоюзов "величайшей победой", а самих погибших - "скопищами
колорадов" (колорадами на Украине называют активистов "антимайдана", по цвету опознавательных георгиевских
ленточек, которые те носят на рукавах). По мнению Оробец, 2 мая вошел в историю как день, когда "агрессоры,
напавшие первыми, получили адекватный ответ".
Кандидат в президенты Украины Юлия Тимошенко, ранее уже призывавшая
"мочить кацапов", назвала сожжение людей в Доме профсоюзов защитой административных зданий, а
нападение радикалов на лагерь Антимайдана - мирной демонстрацией. Лидер "Батькивщины" также обвинила
в гибели людей некие диверсионные группы. "Мы выстояли и защитились в Одессе, потому что одесситы
начали подтягиваться на помощь в то время, когда начали нападать на участников проукраинского шествия,
и смогли защитить административные здания", - так описала происходящее 2 мая в Одессе Тимошенко.
Во всяком случае глава МВД Украины Арсен Аваков, похоже, на сто процентов знает, кто конкретно
виновен в гибели людей в Одессе. Комментируя освобождение 4 мая пророссийских активистов, задержанных
за участие в беспорядках двумя днями ранее, он заявил, в частности: "У меня нет слов, чтобы выразить
свой гнев позорным фактам освобождения 10 провокаторов, по вине которых в Одессе было убито 43 человека,
160 ранены". Разгневанный министр сменил все руководство милицейской верхушки города и назначил главным
милиционером Одесской области генерал-майора Ивана Катеринчука, известного по участию в акции "Украина,
вставай!". Помимо этого в Одессу 5 мая для наведения порядка был переброшен батальон милиции особого
назначения "Киев-1".
Европарламентарий от Латвии Татьяна Жданок выступила с предложением приравнять украинскую радикальную
организацию "Правый сектор" к террористам. Об этом
ИТАР-ТАСС сообщили в среду, 7 мая, в бюро
европарламентария.
"После ужасной трагедии в Одессе, где боевики "Правого сектора" сожгли заживо 43 сторонника федерализации
Украины (по официальным данным, погибли 46 человек, - прим. "Ленты.ру"), необходимость запрета
"Правого сектора" стала очевидной. Причем обычного запрета деятельности здесь недостаточно - необходим
разгром этой экстремистской организации с разоружением ее боевиков, арестом активистов и судом над
ними. Временные власти Украины не решаются на этот шаг по разным причинам, в том числе из-за симпатий
правящих политиков к "Правому сектору"", - заявила она.
Депутат подчеркнула, что Европарламент и Еврокомиссия обязаны дать однозначный сигнал новой украинской
власти, что симпатии к фашистам неуместны, а вооруженные правые экстремисты должны быть объявлены
вне закона. "Уверена, что без такого шага не может быть открыта дорога к политическому урегулированию
противоречий сегодняшней Украины", - добавила Жданок.
В случае если Европарламент поддержит инициативу, радикалам "Правого сектора" запретят въезд в
страны Евросоюза, а счета самой организации и ее лидеров заморозят. Кроме того, правительства стран
ЕС должны будут оказывать содействие в изоляции и задержании боевиков. Жданок, однако, подчеркнула,
что основные мероприятия по ликвидации группировки должны осуществлять власти Украины.
2 мая в Одессе произошли столкновения между сторонниками "Евромайдана", футбольными фанатами и
боевиками "Правого сектора" с одной стороны и пророссийскими активистами - с другой. В ходе массовых
беспорядков "майдановцы" сожгли лагерь ополченцев на площади Куликова Поля, а затем загорелся Дом
профсоюзов, в котором находились десятки сторонников федерализации. Согласно официальным данным,
погибли 46 человек, более 200 пострадали. По неофициальным данным, в результате беспорядков пропавшими
без вести числятся еще 48 человек, почти два десятка тел в городских моргах остаются неопознанными.
Russia has made its
first official comment following the latest escalations in Ukraine - and they are not peaceful-sounding
- "We are dealing with the real genocide of both Russian and Ukrainian people,"
said Russian State Duma Speaker Sergei Naryshkin, adding that Russia was shocked by the massacre
in Odessa and mourns the victims together with their families. His words went further as he warned
the perpetrators "will get what they deserve from their people." The words though,
have now been followed up by actions... as
RIA reports that Russia's Black Sea Fleet "will get new submarines and next-generation
surface ships", Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said Tuesday, voicing his concern
at the increasing maritime activity of the US Navy.
Russia's first official response to the escalation in Ukraine and the disaster in Odessa... (via
RIA)
The latest episodes of violence in Ukraine constitute a genocide against the Russian and Ukrainian
people, Russian State Duma Speaker Sergei Naryshkin said during a Balkan forum Tuesday.
"We are dealing with the real genocide of both Russian and Ukrainian people,"
said Naryshkin, commenting on the tragic events in Odessa on May 2, when 46 federalization
activists were killed in clashes.
He added that Russia was shocked by the massacre in Odessa and mourns the victims together
with their families.
"In the 21st century such things happen not only due to the fault of a bunch of political
adventurists – they are not worth much on their own, they will get what they deserve from their
people. The main problem is that the horrific truth is being kept from the whole world,"
Naryshkin said.
According to the speaker, Kiev's authorities initially based their policy on civil confrontation.
They have now demonstrated their unwillingness to find and punish those responsible for the numerous
crimes that have been committed in Ukraine in recent months, he added.
...
The Russian Foreign Ministry called the events a result of the "criminal irresponsibility
of the Kiev leadership indulging insolent nationalist radicals, including Right Sector, who are
staging a campaign of physical terror against supporters of federalization and real constitutional
changes in Ukrainian society."
Russia's Black Sea Fleet headquartered in the Crimea region that recently reunified with Russia
will be beefed up with a slew of next-generation warships and submarines, Russian Defense Minister
Sergei Shoigu said Tuesday.
"This year, our sea bases will host new air defense and marine regiments,"
Shoigu said.
"This year, the Black Sea Fleet will get new submarines and next-generation surface
ships, and all of this requires our immediate attention," the minister said during a
conference call.
The general underscored that Russia has always "lent all the necessary forces" to the Black
Sea Fleet, but Crimea's accession to Russia required it to amend the fleet's development plan.
Russia has recently voiced concern over the increasing maritime activity of the US
Navy in the Black Sea after the Pentagon dispatched its frigate USS Taylor to the region
together with the command ship USS Mount Whitney.
The clock is ticking and sanctions are doing nothing. The days of diplomacy - it would seem -
are long gone - as Lavrov warns...
WOW - Lavrov says Ukrainians who support and who oppose Kiev's "regime" will live in ONE country.
pic.twitter.com/a6fCbuXDOd
Those curious what the next event catalyst will be, look no further than May 11, when the Donetsk
independence referendum takes place, assured to be a carbon-copy of the Crimean vote.
A sneak preview of the ballot paper for Sunday's referendum on Donetsk's independence
pic.twitter.com/2ZiZWuMxQM
But, as Russia Today just reported,
the US has already said it will not recognize the referendum vote just like it did not "recognize"
the Crimean vote, even though Russia couldn't give a rat's ass about that (unless, of course, the
east votes against independence, which at this point appears unlikely).
Dozens died after being trapped in building that was set ablaze during a violent clash in Ukraine.
Transcript for What the Aftermath of the Fire That Rocked Odessa Looks Like
This is the trades unions building. This place has become a shrine as more people coming to lay
flowers like hand. -- prayer and grieve for those who died here. May be a turning point in Ukrainian
history.
You get that sense in this place of catastrophe that may be a turning point in Ukraine's his.
On Friday -- -- the second dozens of people quote Russian demonstrate. Retreated into the building
after -- day of clashes they barricaded themselves it.
Outside. Can only be described as a mob of Ukrainian government supporters who had been fighting
with anti-Kiev demonstrators destroy tent city and remnants of anti-Kiev demonstrators tried to find
shelter in the building. No one exactly knows how the fire started or Molotov cocktails going back
and what we do know.
As those people desperately were trying to get out of burning building some of them were held
out some of them were prevented from getting. Dozens of people died. Pregnant women, young people,
old people, a local politician.
Thousands of Russians have rallied in memory of those who have lost their lives in the
Ukrainian city of Odessa as the unrest in the port city is escalating. >
The Monday rally in Moscow came two days after dozens of people were killed in Odessa.
On May 2, nearly 70 people were killed and hundreds of others injured after the Ukrainian forces
launched a military operation against pro-Russia protesters, who are in control of several eastern
cities.
Among those killed were nearly 40 people who died in Odessa after a trade union building, where
pro-Russia activists had taken shelter, was set ablaze.
Moscow censured Kiev over the deadly incident in Odessa, saying it was "another manifestation
of the criminal irresponsibility of the Kiev authorities."
On Sunday, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov urged the United States to use its influence
to make Ukraine's interim government immediately stop military operations in the country's southeastern
part.
On April 17, Kiev's interim government together with the US, Russia and the European Union reached
an agreement in the Swiss city of Geneva, calling for all sides to ease the ongoing crisis in eastern
Ukraine.
Nevertheless, a few days later, the Kiev government ordered a re-launch of its controversial "anti-terrorist
operations" in the eastern and southern regions in a bid to root out the pro-Russian demonstrations.
Pro-Moscow protesters keep occupying a number of government, police and other administrative buildings
in a dozen cities and towns in the region, demanding integration into neighboring Russia.
Under a leaden sky at the edge of a cemetery in Odessa, family and friends laid to rest Vladimir
Markin, a local politician who was killed in the vicious street battles that convulsed the city last
week.
A short distance away the funeral of another man who died fighting pro-Ukrainian crowds was also
taking place.
Markin, 44, was a key supporter of a semi-permanent protest camp in Odessa against the current
Kiev government that was burned to the ground on Friday before fighting moved to the nearby trade
union building. At some point during the melee he was badly beaten and died in intensive care in
a local hospital the following day.
The other funeral was of Maksim Nikitenko, 31, who was also killed early on during the struggle
inside the trade union building. "They fought and cracked open his skull and then he was thrown out
of the window," said Petya, a friend.
Nikitenko was not a separatist or an extremist, but he ran to defend the trade union building
when he heard it was under attack, Petya added.
Before the burials Markin's open casket lay in the local parliament building for friends, colleagues
and residents of Odessa to pay their last respects.
Outside an angry crowd gathered and the regional governor, who had come to lay flowers, was assaulted
and forced to flee ignominiously down a corridor. When pallbearers carried the coffin out of the
building people clapped and chanted "Odessa is a Russian city", "Hero, hero, hero!" and "Odessa will
not forgive nor forget".
The Ukrainian interior ministry said on Monday morning that 42 people detained during the violence
had been transferred to other parts of the country. The move came after an angry mob forced police
to release over 60 detainees on Sunday. Interior minister Arsen Avakov also said that a special forces
battalion had been transferred to the city to help keep order.
The Ukrainian government has said that the violence was initiated by Russian provocateurs, while
Russia has referred to the
deaths – many of which were caused by a fire that broke out inside the building – as a massacre inspired
by "neo-Nazis". The horrific events have only served to worsen an already tense situation.
Supporters of closer ties with Russia, who made up the majority of the mourners, blame the government
in Kiev – which they describe as a "junta" and illegitimate, mirroring Russian state propaganda about
the Ukrainian authorities – for the deaths last week. They accuse the police of failing to act swiftly
enough to stop the violence.
... ... ...
In recent days President Vladimir Putin has made no public statements about the situation, but
the Russian foreign ministry again pinned the blame on Kiev in a statement on Monday evening.
"The so-called authorities in Kiev continue to wage war against the people of their own
country," said the ministry, adding there was a "humanitarian catastrophe" brewing in the east
of the country and calling on Kiev to "stop the bloodshed".
... ... ...
In eastern Ukraine surveys show the vast majority of people want more autonomy from Kiev but only
a minority want to join Russia. However, the mood has turned nastier in the last week, with crowds
burning Ukrainian flags, and many speaking about a "point of no return".
In Odessa 52-year-old Igor Bulatov, an engineer who attended the funerals, said that while there
were few separatists among current pro-Russian protesters, the deaths last week might change that.
"I came to pay my respects to people who were murdered … when you kill people for their ideas it
is fascism," he said.
"Recent events mean a lot of people are now wondering about what country they want to live in.
There is an atmosphere of shock, it is a moment of self-definition: people have to decide who they
are and what they want."
Selected Comments
Wojtek Sokol
My heart goes out to all involved...
coffeegirl -> Wojtek Sokol
That is a vague statement. The Right Sector and Svoboda were and are involved, they, the neo-nazi
thugs still occupy Kiev City Hall and the Palace of Culture - the fact neither Obama and Kerry
nor their European lapdogs are willing to acknowledge, nor the 'free' media wants to run a detailed
report on.
And to those who come to the CiF trying to prove otherwise, yes, they are neo-nazi,
this is what the New York Times had called them only few months ago. My heart goes out to people
of Odessa, whose daughters, sons, mothers and fathers were murdered and then set on fire by neo-nazi
'democrats'.
hdc hadeze -> coffeegirl
were murdered and then set on fire by neo-nazi 'democrats'. (coffee@girl)
the expression is simply imagistically dead wrong. one does not "set on" fire ...
coffeegirl -> hdc hadeze
No, it is not, and though the clip is about CBS 5 anchor's gaffe ( not using punctuation properly)
it proves the point.
HarryTic -> GuyBenjam1n
Gee that sounds EXACTLY like the Anglo-American Empire and Emperor Obama! No wonder NATO is
supporting the neo-nazis who let the coup that overthrew the duly elected government of the Ukraine
and are now murdering their OWN citizens in the eastern and southern parts of the country.
Debbie Rosegirl -> Fox GuyBenjam1n
Do you agree with people being chased into a building, locked inside and burned to death
or beaten to death if they try to escape? Because that's what the people you're supporting did.
griffinalabama -> Wojtek Sokol
Detailed video links and proof that it was the pro nazi radicals that burned Odessan's alive.
Graphic warning: Pictures of elderly women and pensioners burned alive in Odessa government
building fire. The youth who threw the molotov cocktails at them are supported fully by the United
States.
The next video show Right Sector pro nazi extremists financed and backed by Barack Obama and
the US government hacking a mans leg off in the street. Graphic warning. The hacking takes place
at the 9:10 mark in the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVejqaNXzYE
The next video shows 24 minutes of consecutive footage from the time the building was under
siege. Shaky camera warning. You will notice that not a single molotov cocktail comes from the
building as the press is reporting, while instead many molotovs are thrown into the building by
the violent youth that have trapped the people inside.
The next video is 16 consecutive minutes of the building under siege. Numerous moltov cocktails
are thrown from the violent youth out front. Not a single molotov comes from the building as the
press in Kiev and the West (including the Guardian UK) is reporting.
The above video does show the Pro separatist shooter on a shop roof who appears to be possibly
the person who the Right Sector later hacks the leg off of. The shooter had previously been apprehended
by the police but it appears from other videos that they let the neo-nazi's have him, at which
point they then hack away at his leg.
The next link is to a Washington based article highlighting how the US is now providing additional
financing to the new Kiev government and media which yesterday blamed the deaths of the people
who were killed inside the building on....get this....themselves.
And here's what Washington is paying that media money for. The Kiev post is reporting that
the people burned themselves alive instead of blaming the pro nazi's that the new coup government
is made up of.
Headline at link: Police say pro-Russians accidentally set fatal Odessa fire with Molotov cocktails
(LIVE UPDATES, VIDEO)
The next link is to a Facebook page of one of the young girls who was filmed preparing the
molotov cocktails that burned the elderly people alive. The first pic on her page has her performing
a sieg heil nazi salute in front of an iron eagle.
https://www.facebook.com/mykolasalutis
These are the types of people President Obama is supporting with US tax dollars while he has
a jokes around and has a laugh at President Putin at the press correspondents dinner.
The next couple of video's clearly show the neo-nazi youth burning the building and throwing
all of the molotov cocktails that set the building alight. Once again, not a single molotov comes
from inside the building or from the roof of the building.
RT has covered all of this in full yet the US media who are attending the correspondents dinner
and laughing along with Obama's jokes have neglected to cover almost all of these factors and
have instead opted to declare that "both sides" were throwing molotov cocktails.
The above links prove 'well beyond a reasonable doubt' that all molotovs were thrown by the
neo-nazi youth. It is incredibly sad what my country, the USA, has fomented in Ukraine and all
Americans should be enraged about it. We are supporting right wing neo-nazi murderers and our
ridiculous president (who I sadly voted for) is making jokes about it while they have just burned
people alive and hacked off legs.
The next link is to a presentation from Noam Chomsky (one of America's most profound liberal
scholars) who sums up the US's hypocrisy in the Ukraine crisis.
Feel free to cut and paste the above section to help get the word out on this hypocrisy.
I write this as a former US marine, 0341, 1st battalion, 6th marines, 2nd Mar Div, 85-88.
I am ashamed that this is what my country has come to especially after what the people of that
region did for all of us in WW2 (26 million deaths fighting against the nazi's) and all the suffering
they have endured since.
griffinalabama -> griffinalabama
Additional proof that the BBC and the mainstream Western press lied when they said both sides
threw the molotov's.
I looked for 5 hours searching for one video that showed anyone in the building throwing
a molotov cocktail as the BBC first reported and the rest of the MSM went along with. I could
not find a single one. They claimed a person named Sergei (what are the odds of that) told
them a person threw the molotov inside the building and didn't realize the window was closed.
This is absolutely ludicrous and an example of the pathetic reporting that passes for "news" these
days.
I did find the video of the third floor fire starting. It is at the following link and runs
consecutively. You'll notice at exactly the 2 minute mark the camera zooms in on the window where
the fire begins. You'll also notice that at the 2:02 mark you see an additional molotov cocktail
just miss the window. This is strong evidence that the window was being targeted by individuals
on the ground. Prior to this fire starting there is no other fire on the third floor, therefore
this is most likely the cause of the third floor fire and lends credence to the fact that the
violent youth below burned those people alive.
Here's a link to the BBC article that quotes a random guy named Sergei and provides no evidence
whatsoever to back up their
Hajro Dulić -> GuyBenjam1n
then you name one major western media that covers ukrainian situation fairly and balanced.
its the same thing, but in the west media is controlled by big money, they have rich owners.
take this for example, on you tube you have dozens of videos showing what happened in Oddesa,
pro Russian supporters getting burned and killed by pro Kiev mob, and Guardian says they died
from the fire. You see people throwing molotov coctails to the building and others cheering and
preparing new ones.
Euromaidan PR published video oh youtube bragging about Russian terrorists burned in the building,
i dont recommend you to watch it. It is too brutal. It makes you sick. Guardian or any other news
makes it like those people deserved it. If those burned people were pro EU people you would see
a lot different coverage. Like you saw in Kiev when before Yanukovich fled
Jean-François Guilbo -> griffinalabama
Seen on RT, nazis thugs allowed to pass through 4 compact lines of riot police barring
a small street in Odessa?
I'm afraid this has reached the horror of Oradour sur Glane massacre by the nazis during WW2.
Incredible this blackout without any condemnation matching the horror from western countries?
This shift of guilt seems a huge embarrassement.
happytolive
While the rich and their political poodles in the west are celebrating their victory against
the poor, namely the "revival of [their] economy", thirst increases for expansion of power for
economic ends. A new Sudan, Afghanistan, Iraq will definitely result in viable business for many.
When the political battle throughout the western countries is exclusively about who has a better
plan for exploiting the cornered working class and its army of unemployed, what else do you expect
regarding the treatment of Ukraine? A treatment which has been repeated so many times it's like
the monotony of replaying a cruel episode of a film which vividly portrays the extent to which
capitalism extinguishes hope and destroys the future of the vast majority of people.
Military crackdown and attacks by fascist mobs are used to kill off the opposition to the illegitimate
Kiev government - a repeat of the bloody turmoil in Egypt, Bahrain, Turkey and many other client
states, supported and actively encouraged by the West.
Where is the cry of protest against this new aggression? Where is the request for the no fly
zone? Where is the "world response" to and "united front" against the on-going crime in Ukraine?
Who has approved the government in Kiev? Who invited the security agencies in the country?
Who accepted the IMF loan and its conditions? And what has the US to do with Ukraine?
Sometimes truth is slaughtered even before anyone can get a glimpse of its existence; sometimes
those few who carry it face their cruel end, leaving behind the legacy of a fervent desire to
deny agonizing injustice. There is no quarrel among different people; we all are hostage to a
system whose main goal is to put power into the hands of a few, leaving us with nothing. Workers'
alienation from political and economic means is the cornerstone of capitalism ingrained in every
chapter of its dark history.
That system, which western political power leads and maintains, creates division among its
hostages who ultimately pay the cost of the resulting chaos with their lives, money and future.
If East Ukraine wants to be independent so be it; in these circumstances staying under the authority
of the coup leaders in Kiev is the worst option which will mean continuous tension and hardship
for all people in the country.
Eaglesson
Strong critics from German politicians about the involvement of German soldiers (camouflaged
as OSCE observers)
"I can see that it is in the interest of the revolutionary government in Kiev, whose legitimacy
one has reasons to doubt, to 'invite' soldiers of the German army into the conflict zone,"
said Peter Gauweiler(the deputy leader of the Bavarian CSU, a sister party to Angela Merkel's
CDU). "But I don't understand how it can be in our interest to allow ourselves to be dragged
further into the conflict in such a clumsy manner."
"I can see that it is in the interest of the revolutionary government in Kiev, whose legitimacy
one has reasons to doubt, to 'invite' soldiers of the German army into the conflict zone,".
"But I don't understand how it can be in our interest to allow ourselves to be dragged further
into the conflict in such a clumsy manner."
donkeyshit
"… when you kill people for their ideas it is fascism".
that sentence, in a nutshell, says just about everything you need to know about current developments
inside ukraine.
as for the massacre in odessa, watching the occurrences -- as they happened in real time --
on any number of youtube channels should suffice to see and understand who the real culprits were
-- and why, precisely, our western media chooses to keep a very low profile indeed in its reporting
on the truly horrible mass murder that was enacted inside that city`s trade union buildings.
hopefully, these murders will go down in history as the beginning of the end of ukraine`s "integration"
into the robber`s fiefdom that is the EU.
Ishowerdaily
Found any fascists in Kiev yet guardian? Let me give you a clue, they might be waving svoboda
flags and carry pictures of second world war fascists.
Also recently been seen celebrating the burning of Colorado beetles.
Whose side are you on guardian?
vasgrom
Thank u Obamitler for new nazi gov in Kiev. what a shame...
Colin Ball -> vasgrom
Russia has drawn a red line on Corporate-NATO expansion and brought it to a halt for the first
time in 25 years. People now have a chance to consider who is being aggressive and who is promoting
democratic choice.
Per Orwellian distortion, only one side is being presented. The White House and NATO continuously
denounce, threaten and lie. Contracts and assets are violated only by one side. Campaigns of hatred
without evidence head one way. Protests have been murderous from the US-coup side and relativey
without harm from the resisting side. Russia is within its own borders, and the US disperses threats,
covert operations and well-paid mercenaries from half a world away.
We have a chance to see, but first we must all open our eyes.
AlexanderRussiaNNov
"point of no return".
"moment of self-definition: people have to decide who they are and what they want"
UN, PACE, ECHR, where are you?
Colin Ball AlexanderRussiaNNov
Geostrategic sequence of US-led destabilisation and reverse blame (refer Iraq Libya Syria Ukraine):
'Observe the common pattern of social destruction. It begins with US covert forces sponsoring
opposition forces in the society featuring fascist and jihadist terrorists, mounting global
media campaigns against the targeted leader, murders committed by snipers pretending to be
state agents, growing civil division and hate towards civil war, and absolutely one-sided reporting
of the US point of view, and reverse-moral justifications for what ends as society destruction.'
Professor J McMurtry
Inevitable
The new Government in Ukraine is already responsible for more deaths than Yanukovich ever was.
Democracy in action.
Alcimar Luiz Callegari -> Inevitable
And the scenario is how the EU and EU always wanted it'd be.
Killing of civilians, burning down the infra sctruture, people hating people, etc. So Obama and
his friends can go on playing the ''good guys''.
AlexRussia
Ukraine, mostly Russian-speaking, which stood shoulder to shoulder with Russia in the destruction
of Hitler, is held as hostage by the people from Lviv and Ivano-Fkrankovskoy areas - half German,
half-Polish, half-fascists.
Mass of lies and propaganda, tales about prosperity in the EU, where no one is waiting them,
threat and murder - none of this will keep Ukraine and Russian people in the western orbit.
The lie is already dissipated, and is followed by reaction.
The guilty will be punished.
Berezovsky -> AlexRussia
That's hogwash - Kiev and the centre of Ukraine are staunch opponents of Moscow.
AlexRussia -> Berezovsky
Did you conduct the referendum on this matter? Or it is Savik Shuster said it to you?
AuntieSonya
To Guardian itself - I just had a look at your "discussion panel" for 12 May where you are
going to talk about the situation in Ukraine. I doubt any of those people named would fairly represent
the point of view of Ukraine's East-South regions. Again, one-sided event?
Why not to publish videos from Odessa where nazis burn people inside of the building alive?
Where nationalists are celebrating deaths of Russian-speaking Ukrainians, insulting already dead
as well as still alive? Pictures of murdered pregnant woman who had nothing to do with protesters
but was inside at her place of work? Or what about pictures and expert's opinions on why those
dead people had burns on their heads and arms (because they had petrol poured on them)? Many of
those people were women and elderly, trying to hide in that building from nationalists running
after them... Who is going to talk on their behalf at your discussion on Monday, Guardian?
Faced Book
I see that the Guardian has taken to blaming its readers for disagreeing with its wall-to-wall
propaganda.
"Guardian moderators, who deal with 40,000 comments a day, believe there is an orchestrated
pro-Kremlin campaign"
The last informational push in this dirty American war is to convince us that Russians are
as much involved on the comment boards as on the ground in Ukraine. Why? To level the playing
field by invalidating the truth. To muddy the waters. To get us as far away as possible from the
incontrovertible evidence that America has been orchestrating and funding this murderous operation
for years. Seriously? Isn't there enough evidence of that for you out there, for God's sake? Ignorance
is unforgivable. But no. If you can keep people ignorant and get Russia's hands caked with blood,
you can take some moral high ground from them, and that's half the battle in this filthy little
psy-op we're all witnessing here.
For that reason these comment boards are alive with references to Putin bots, Putinistas and
Russian 'State employees' posting pro-Russian comments. Who are these Putinistas, Guardian, with
such high levels of English, who think up-voting comments is some kind of worthwhile branch of
foreign policy??!
But forget reality. Blame the readers for being informed by any of a multitude of non-mainstream
sources, personal accounts, video evidence, telephone conversations, etc etc. Any informed person,
whether Russian or not, can see that the media, on this issue at least, has been utterly co-opted.
I don't know who's writing these 'stories', couched as they are in deceitful language that manipulates
and misleads, but it isn't any kind of journalist with an ounce of pride or a moral compass, and
that's for shit-sure.
It's a propaganda war, and the Guardian would like to emerge from it with some vestiges of
a reputation intact. Well, too late, guys. You're going all out, now, it's clear. Blaming your
readers as liars and trolls themselves is something you were forced to do.
How else could you address the fact that you are so at variance with informed opinion, so out
of step with your readers, than by decrying the very foundation of their sincerity?
Utter debasement. This is an absolutely degrading spectacle now, of human life and of moral
standards.
And if you get what you want, and Russia sends in the tanks because of the human catastrophe
that you're doing your level best to engineer, well, let's see how that works out for the murderous
scum whom you endorse and who are your sponsors.
Anotherevertonian -> Faced Book
The last informational push in this dirty American war is to convince us that Russians
are as much involved on the comment boards as on the ground in Ukraine. Why? To level the playing
field by invalidating the truth. To muddy the waters.
To get us as far away as possible from the incontrovertible evidence that America has
been orchestrating and funding this murderous operation for years. Seriously? Isn't there enough
evidence of that for you out there, for God's sake?
Ignorance is unforgivable. But no. If you can keep people ignorant and get Russia's
hands caked with blood, you can take some moral high ground from them, and that's half the
battle in this filthy little psy-op we're all witnessing here.
You are, sir, a gentleman and scholar. Have this brief note of appreciation.
Thanks for the link. I just read the article - very depressing. I've been a member at CiF for
seven years, and a reader of the Guardian newspaper for close on forty, and I can hardly believe
what I've just read.
But when I think of just saying fuck 'em, and walking away, I get this feeling that I'm being
defeated by forces which it's my duty to fight against. This newspaper wasn't always like this.
We can win it back again.
RicardoFloresMagon retsdon
What is my business though, is when my own government and my supposedly 'free' press
lie to me.
But they do this every day, and on things MUCH more relevant to your daily life.
Just don't let the hatred for one gangster government lead to supporting the actions of another.
There is nastiness and interfering from a number of foreign governments, making everything after
the original Maidan protests substantially worse.
David Simpson RicardoFloresMagon
I'm just curious. How exactly do you stoke separatism? I'm writing from Canada and I remember
when De Gaulle gave his famous "Vive le Québec libre !" speech, much to the consternation of Canadian
federal politicians.
But did that mean that the desire for Québec independence arising from a deep sense of disenfranchisement
and distrust of the Anglophone central government was all De Gaulle's fault?
Could he have stoked a separatist fire if it wasn't already silently raging?
To me, blaming Russia for the legitimate concerns of a concentrated and unified population
is tantamount to denying that those concerns are legitimate; a purely authoritarian response requiring
a (nationalistic/ethnic) dictatorship of the (overall) majority within and outside of artificial
boundaries.
Ukraine should learn a lesson from the Liberal Canada of the past, (not today), and institute
the rights and protections that productive minorities deserve as their citizenship right within
their own country.
My sense is that option would be viewed as utter capitulation by the current Kyiv establishment,
hence the need to vilify their countrymen.
Considering events in Odessa, it seems Yulia Tymoshenko's 'scorched fields' policy is that
establishment knows. But that policy and its totally predictable reaction is what is stoking the
fires of separatism, outdoing anything the Russians themselves could ever do to inflame the situation.
retsdon RicardoFloresMagon
But they do this every day, and on things MUCH more relevant to your daily life.
The government does, of course. But the press don't as a rule. They just spin. And actually,
I would say that major war in Europe would be relevant enough.
No, I don't support the Russian government. But I empathize with their position, which I don't
with the Americans and EU. They are guilty of pursuing an agenda- driven and expansionist foreign
policy which is dangerously destabalizing in Europe, and has proven tragic for hapless peoples
around the world who have been subjected to it. It's a policy which is driven primarily by greed
and the urge to control, and it's one that will end in tears for all of us unless common sense
prevails.
RicardoFloresMagon David Simpson
Fair points, though of course France did not send in troops or French citizens with local Quebecois
to take over local government buildings, annex territory as in Krim, etc.
There are certainly concerns - some of them real, others based on fantasy: nobody is going
to kill them or stop them from speaking Russian - but the way to resolve those is dialogue. Not
an armed insurrection (including kidnappings and beatings), by their own admission largely consisting
of Berkut, police and Afghan and Chechen veterans.
Russia's antics has made dealing with any such legitimate concerns a whole lot harder. BTW,
from what I understand, Ukraine already has the rights and protections of minorities in place.
The Kiev government has done nothing to remove those (unless you count that brief silly vote to
repeal Russian as a 2nd official state language, which never was signed and never went into effect),
even if their statements have not always been terribly helpful.
Griffon79 RicardoFloresMagon
Oh! You are SO, like, principled!
Of course the burning alive of dozens of unarmed anti-Kyiv protesters in Odessa is A-OK, by
your reckoning.
With wonderful moralist leaders like you, we can all clearly go home. The 'good' people are
in 'charge' in Ukraine.
Bollocks.
geronimo Faced Book
FacedBook - thanks. Another powerful post from another outraged reader who is told he must
be a paid red-under-the-bed if he dissents in any way from the paranoid Guardian line.
I've written several times during this paper's outrageously biased coverage of the Ukraine
conflict that we need a sort of MAIDAN BTL calling for regime change at the top of the autocratic
censoring hierachy ATL.
The swelling outrage, as the Guardian 'reader's editor' adds insult to injury by complaining
that principled posters with rather good use of English and years commenting BTL 'must be paid
Kremlin stooges' reminds me of the growing outrage before the current editor's last favourite
provocateur, Julian Glover, finally decided to go and spend more time with David Cameron.
Why are many of us so outraged by Guardian support for NATO operations in Afghanistan, Iraq,
Libya, potentially Libya, and then this latest propaganda about the latest NATO adventure in Ukraine?
(Not to mention support for the current coalition of shysters who run our own country).
Because the Guardian used to sometimes represent the only chink of light in the Dark Empire
of the monolithic Rightwing British Press, and should be bound by the terms of the Scott Bequest,
to provide some vaguely left-of-centre or 'progressive' alternative to the rightwing monopoly
that sets the political agenda in the UK.
Peterloo Massacre, indeed...
Mr1Cynical
Give a Nazi salute at an England Football Match and prepare for Hell to descend Tory MP Dresses
up in Nazi regalia Career over In Europe denying the Holocaust is a Crime, i have no problem with
it, it happened
Kiev Extreme Ultra Nationalists, complete with Nazi Uniforms Nazi Insignia Nazi Salute nazi Doctrine
rabidly anti simetic,violently overthrow the elected Government, and prepare to be lauded by the
Western Cheerleading MSM Hypocrisy does not describe half of it Anyway we fund, and facilitate,their
rise to power giving them billions They commit a heinous crime, and our apologist MSM cover them
in roses
centreville
I wonder to what extent the "Ukrainian soldiers" and "army" fighting in Sloviansk and elsewhere
today are really the regular army. There are reports that Kiev is creating new units comprised
of Right Sector fascists, as most of the regular army has refused to fight. There are also reports
of more army defections in the east. It might be better if Guardian and other correspondents referred
to "pro-Kiev forces" rather than "the Ukrainian army" unless it's clear that the Ukrainian army
is really engaged.
In any case, it's important to note the difference between army and the other forces that the
Kiev regime is recruiting to do its fighting. The latter pose a serious threat of committing further
atrocities as we saw in Odessa.
Expats10 centreville
Strange point seeing as the Ukrainian army aren't fighting in Sloviansk and how can the regular
army be refusing to fight when they haven't been asked to fight?
centreville Expats10
I can understand your confusion if you only read the Guardian, which hasn't covered these topics
much. In fact, a couple weeks ago the first "anti-terrorist operation" by Kiev fell flat when
soldiers were confronted by civilians in the East and the soldiers refused to fight. The elite
paratroop unit refused orders and was subsequently disbanded. As for Slaviansk today/last night,
try following Graham Phillips here.
The Ukrainian army isn't involved, they are 'interior ministry' troops.
Expats10
I gather that you agree, then, with my point that it's important to be more precise about who
is actually doing the fighting on behalf of the Kiev government, and who is not.
Maybe not all reports about trouble in the army are true, but you shouldn't be so quick to say
it's "all rubbish". It's a fact that
the 25th Airborne Brigade
was disbanded for refusing to fight. I have that on no less authority than the acting president
of the Ukraine. He called the soldiers "cowards" but I believe the soldiers described their refusal
as a matter of principle.
PeterBrit
One vital question almost no western journalist or politician seems to be asking is why the
Kiev government doesn't appear to have attempted any negotiations whatsoever with the eastern
rebels before sending in special forces, helicopter gunhships, tanks and APCs against heavily
populated areas? PM Yatsenyuk and President Turchynov hardly seem to have gone furher east than
their Kiev offices before launching a war against their own people. Not surprisingly those many
easterners who were not originally sympathetic to the rebels now seem to be rallying to the cause.
The disastrously incompetent Kiev government seems to be managing to unite the east against it.
retsdon PeterBrit
With dozens of CIA operatives acknowledged to be 'advising' Kiev, I don't imagine that Yats
is calling the shots.
4Matt
The Ukrainian interior ministry said on Monday morning that 42 people detained during the
violence had been transferred to other parts of the country. The move came after an angry mob
forced police to release over 60 detainees on Sunday. Interior minister Arsen Avakov also said
that a special forces battalion had been transferred to the city to help keep order.
Unlike the bland repetition of the Kiev line from The Guardian, Reuters actually report they're
based on "civil activists", and will "replace local police":
Kiev drafted police special forces to the southwestern port city of Odessa to halt a feared
westward spread of rebellion.
Ukraine said the Odessa force, based on "civil activists", would replace local police
who had failed to tackle rebel actions at the weekend.
These are the same thugs who went on rampage in Odessa, ending in mass murder, but drafted
into new state militias dominated by the fascists in the Kiev regime.
It's like sending Christian Phalangists to 'keep order' in Palestinian refugee camps (or Bandarite
fascists to a city of Russians). Odessa must fear the worst. If no-one else will defend them,
they can only defend themselves.
MysticFish 4Matt
And having released some of the arrested protestors, the police went and handed over their
personal details to the fascist murder squads.
I'm so shocked and disgusted to see the US backing these murderous fascists, especially since
it has a coloured, and supposedly democratic president, who really should know better than to
finance bigoted murderous mobs who act like the KKK, only worse.
4Matt MysticFish
They're witnesses to a mass murder, in the eyes of it's perpetrators they have to be eliminated.
edwardrice
Supporters of closer ties with Russia, who made up the majority of the mourners, blame the
government in Kiev – which they describe as a "junta" and illegitimate, mirroring Russian state
propaganda about the new Ukrainian authorities
What is legitimate about the government in Kiev? There was a coup. Nobody voted for Turchynov
and Yanukovych's ouster was illegal. MPs according to Ukraine's constitution have no legal authority
to appoint a president. Why would anyone need Russian propaganda to see the bleeding obvious?
peacefulmilitant edwardrice
There was a coup. Nobody voted for Turchynov and Yanukovych's ouster was illegal.
Yanukovych fled (the coward that he is). Turchynov was voted in by the Rada. The constitutionality
of this change might be questioned but calling it a coup is a bit of a stretch.
Alice Ponomareva peacefulmilitant
You wouldn't flee Right Sector mob at you?
Alice Ponomareva peacefulmilitant
And, at least, for the history, in future, if there will be future, I am glad Russia gave cover
to the last legal Ukraine's president. Not leaving him to the mob, to be butchered a la the Libia
man or . I don't know
A President of a country is their part of state-eism, insignia, it is wrong to butcher them
to pieces in view of crowds, this undermines Ukraine prospects. if there will be any in future.
to be a state.
It's a symbolical, how to say, harming public morals a thing, when national leaders even crappy
ones are dismantled limb to limb.
I dearly wish we have saved someone more worthy than him!
But, given he is a kind of a symbol, doesn't matter by himself much, but what he signifies - I
am damn glad we saved his neck.
Griffon79 peacefulmilitant
Would you prefer a putsch?
Regardless, it was the overthrow of a democratically elected government - not a great one,
but I think we all have had our share of terrible governance, that started this conflict.
We have flung a bag of flaming feces on Russias doorstep and now we pose as shocked and angered
when Russia responds?
I think Russia has shown remarkable restraint. The people who burned alive dozens in Odessa
work for the Kyiv junta. They should be facing war crimes, but of course will not.
putin_the_fabulous panpipes
Because they are peace loving pro federalist citizen who dislike the evil neonazi CIA Kiev
junta of corse(!)
nic nic
it would seem a standard phrase, BUT the self-proclaimed government has never been legitimate
in the South-East.
unarmed people burned alive, but we hear only words about the need for new negotiations...
the feeling that happened a mere trifle.
theatre of hypocrisy
Forthestate RicardoFloresMagon
Maybe next time, think again before you attack a pro-Unity protest? Just because there are
no consequences for beating up pro-Unity protesters in Donetsk and Slovyanks, doesn't mean
you can just do that in Odessa without there being consequences, apparently.
So you justify burning people alive. Your comment is depraved. An utterly repulsive statement,
which could have come from any murderous thug involved in this atrocity.
incunable RicardoFloresMagon
Maybe next time, think again before you attack a pro-Unity protest? Just because there are
no consequences for beating up pro-Unity protesters in Donetsk and Slovyanks, doesn't mean
you can just do that in Odessa without there being consequences, apparently
I'm not sure what to say to that.
The fact you are trying to justify what happened is bad enough, but the tone of your comment is
so sinister, I'm lost for words.
juster
The turn of events that we're witnessing with kiev basically moving its western paramilitary
formations to Odessa and east is most disturbing.
jakartamoscow Alex7777777
Alex, your problem is not with the people in East Ukraine who want to join Russia. Your problem
is that these people own the East Ukrainian lands. Those lands don't belong to Kiev just because
some idiot took over the government. If you have a bunch of morons in one corner of your country
living there for yonks, you are stuck with them. Learn to please them, or get ready to lose them.
That's all there is to your problem.
I suggest you take a job with an insurance company and learn how to sell your Great Ukraine
to people who don't like it. Maybe you'll make new friends.
It's clear that the number of people killed in the Trade Unions House was far more than 42 (officials
reported 42 dead people). Provocateurs captivated people into the building where it was possible
to kill them with impunity, pleasure, and without witnesses. Fire inside the building was directed
in order to hide mass murdering of Ukrainian citizens.
The U.S. plan for Ukraine seems to be to bait Russia into an occupation. This would destroy
EU-Russia relations, embolden NATO and help the U.S. to keep the EU as a secondary partner under
its control. There would be lots of economic upsides for the U.S. in such a situation. Selling more
arms and increasing energy market shares are only the starters.
"For the same day your court in Donetsk ruled to strip [Ukrainian Ultra Nationalist hero
Stepan] Bandera of his Hero title, God bestowed the best gift possible to our family: the birth
of Stepan Bandera's fifth great-grandchild... This was the third-generation Stepan Bandera's
open letter to Ukrainian President Victor Yanukovych in 2010.
The first Bandera's grandson
is a former editor and reporter for the Kiev Post, and you can read his own take on Ultra Nationalists
like Oleh Tyanhybok here.
From a Kiev Post interview lunch with the grandson of national hero Stepan Bandera, by Paul
Miazga, Kyiv Post Staff Writer, April 20, 2005:
"Bandera, who currently writes for New York City's [Ukrainian] Diaspora newspaper The
National Tribune, never knew his grandfather, who was killed by a KGB agent in 1959. But he
has an affinity with him.... "Our family has always been very tight, very Ukrainian.' Bandera's
father--also a nationalist activist--died under mysterious circumstances back in 1984, just
like his grandfather. "I came to Ukraine looking for a fight,' he says."
Aside from being a journalist supporting his family's claim to an Ultra Nationalist Ukraine,
Mr. Bandera plays a much larger role behind the scenes. This second-generation homegrown Canadian
Ukrainian Ultra Nationalist helped Americanize the ultra-nationalist movement in Ukraine through
his influence in America's civil, political, and business circles.
The CUSUR (Center for US-Ukrainian Relations) was started as a result of the continuing
support for a free Ukraine in three US presidential administrations. The "free" in "free Ukraine"
refers to an ultra-nationalist Ukraine that Mr. Bandera's grandfather would be proud of.
First under President Bill Clinton, and then through two terms of GW Bush, both the US and
Ukrainian governments, and businesses in the two countries, built extensive networks that culminated
in the event-driving Maidan movement for Ukrainian integration with the West.
The CUSUR and the UCCA (Ukrainian Congressional Committee of America) are intertwined and
so powerful in American politics that even a casual glance at their meeting notes or plans
will give you the chills. Both groups are in fact OUN (b) (Ukrainian Ultra Nationalist) organizations
that operate freely in the US, influencing National Security issues, Foreign Policy, and American
National Politics.
Both Congressional Durbin brothers and Secretary of State John Kerry are enthusiastic supporters.
Senator Durbin, a Lithuanian-American, has in fact stated during John Kerry's bid for the Presidency,
"If John Kerry is elected, Kerry will work vigorously for Ukraine's continued independence
and prosperity." That position, of course, supports the UCCA view .
Where does Mr. Bandera fit into all of this? For the last seventy years, the US has only
recognized one Ukrainian government. According to CIA-released documents to which I provided
links in previous articles, that one government is the Ukrainian government in Exile, led by
the Stetskos. That government has now been brought back to Ukraine and cemented with the Maidan.
The Depth of the Bandera Influence
Here's a quick look at one name that appears on all of the steering committees of the CUSUR.
As you'll see in UA Quest Roundtable Steering Committees, that name is Stepan Bandera...
With Bandera's involvement, CUSUR has found enthusiastic support from across the spectrum
of US universities, think tanks and corporations, and from the US government itself. Sponsor
companies and foundations that fund the organization include: American Foreign Policy Council,
Atlantic Council, Bechtel Corporation, Coca-Cola Beverages Ukraine Ltd., Canadian Ukrainian
Foundation, Delta Airlines, Halliburton, J. P. Morgan, Microsoft, National Endowment for Democracy,
Philip Morris Companies, Inc., and, of course, the RAND Corporation--among many others.
At the very least, Mr. Bandera provides the brand name for the new Ukraine that US businesses
and the US government can rally around.
Children of the OUN (b)
Oleksandr Ivanovych Muzychko (aka Sashko Bily) was recently gunned down in Rivne. Mr. Muzychko
was a leader of the ultra-nationalist umbrella organization Pravy Sector for Western Ukraine.
He was also a leader in UNA-UNSD (Ukrainian National Assembly--Ukrainian National Self-Defense),
which was originally led by Yuriy-Bogdan Shukhevych, son of OUN General Roman Shukhevych and
a friend of the Nazi sympathizer Slava Stetsko. Mr. Muzychko has the distinction of having
the same family name as Slava Stetsko 's maiden name. It might be noted, too, that Mr. Tyanhybok
is descended from a legendary Ukrainain politician, Lonhyn Tsehelsky, and that Mr. Yatsenyuk's
family also has distinguished itself in service to the Nationalist cause. If you look closely
at the family histories of today's Ukrainian politicians, you find that today's Stepan Bandera
shares the company of the children and grandchildren of the men and women that supported his
illustrious grandfather.
In the picture below, you'll find presidential hopeful and EU favorite Vitali Klitschko,
his brother and his father. And, yes, that is Oleksandr Muzychko with the number "2" over his
head. Mr. Muzychko introduced the Klitschko brothers to connections in America.
How Powerful are Ultra Nationalists in the US Government?
Here's a short highlight history of how groups openly working with Adolf Hitler entwined
themselves and have shaped US domestic and foreign policy for the last 30 years...
In 1977 the UNA gained enough political potency to establish Human Rights Day in the nation's
capital, an event hosted by Senator Bob Dole and attended by 51 members of Congress...
The Chicago School Neo-Cons, including Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, and, today, even Victoria
Nuland, subscribe to Strauss' brand of ultra-nationalism. That is what the "American Exceptionalism"
they all want to promote is in reality.
The Anti-Bolshevik Bloc of Nations ( ABN ) The Anti-Bolshevik Bloc of Nations (ABN) was
formed in 1943 by OUN leader Yaroslav Stetsko, who headed it until his death in 1986. Leadership
of the ABN then shifted to his wife Slava Stetsko, along with that of the OUN, which had leadership
of the entire Ukrainian diaspora.
The UNA, UCCA, and many other groups and foundations all fell under the control of the ABN.
After the death of (the first) Stepan Bandera in 1959, control of these groups in the US and
abroad fell to the OUN (b) Ukrainian Prime Minister in Exile, Yaroslav Stetsko.
The groups that made up the ABN were and are all radical Ultra Nationalist, or Nazi, when
the group leader's affiliations to Hitler are taken into account. These are the groups from
which the Republican Heritage Groups Council was formed...
Jumping to 1988, an article in the Jewish Weekly forced the resignation of six Republican
leaders from George HW Bush's campaign, because of their Nazi ties. All of them were members
of the Republican Heritage Groups Council...
Leo Strauss and the Chicago School (the University of Chicago), where our current President
was a professor, don't care whether you're liberal or conservative, as long as you agree with
certain principles. As a government employee, you would be expected, like each of the members
of the second group of 100 city designers, to have arrived at the same conclusions as everyone
else. That is US government today.
The National Review, a respected Neo-Conservative publication, makes the point this way:
" Nazism may have been an ideology to which the United States was -- and to which the President
is -- implacably opposed, but it is hardly "senseless.'...
In the 1980s, John McCain was on the Advisory Board of the USWF ( United States Council
for World Freedom) . Like Presidents Reagan, Bush, and GW Bush, he was in contact with the
Stetskos and was in fact chairman of the most important division of Yaroslav Stetsko's ABN
group. McCain eventually resigned from this position, because of the heat you have to expect
when you are in the US government and some of your best friends--those in Stetsko's ABN--are
Nazis, Fascists, and perpetrators of genocide...
In 2005, President Obama toured surplus weapons stockpiles in Ukraine with Senator Dick
Lugar. The agreement that came out of this visit was that Ukraine would give up its nuclear
weapons and, in return, the borders of Ukraine would be guaranteed. Mr. Obama played a large
role in creating this pact.
The role of the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) makes clear that President Obama's
views on America's role in the world are on a par with those of John McCain ...
If you combine Section 1, parts iv and v, and Section 4(a) and Section 6(c), the order is
very clear: Any person, including US citizens that are only writing about the Ukrainian Revolution,
or government, who represent Bandera history, philosophy, and politics in any light other than
favorable to the new Bandera-led Ukrainian government, is no better than Anwar Awlaki...
I have written about Mr. Kolomoisky in a few of the articles I have published. He was the
Oligarch who said about the protests in southeast Ukraine: "Give them what they want. We can
hang them later." Both he and another Oligarch were reported on the news today, because they
are hiring mercenary groups to quell any protests and maintain order in the regions they control...
ToivoS
ProPeace | May 4, 2014 5:35:03 PM | 55
Interesting piece on the Bandera family. It has been clear for many years that after WWII
the US allowed large numbers of "minority" fascist groups to settle in the US and Canada. Not
just Ukrainians but also Latvians and Croatians. They established communities around the Great
Lakes. They became prosperous. They influenced US policy. George Kennan in his memoirs complained
about how hard it was for any rational foreign policy dealing with Yugoslavia and the Soviet
Union because of these ex-patriate communities.
One would have thought after the first generation died this problem would dissapate. But
it seems not just their children but also their grand and great grand children carry on the
cause of their fascist ancestors. Ukrainian, Latvian and Croation nationalism lives on in the
US.
brian
Leonid Ragozin @leonidragozin ·Apr 29
People who hate journalists for calling them separatists MT "@VoiceOfDonetsk: Луганск сегодня!
pic.twitter.com/du3x0qRaVs"
.................
No,,,,really?! the [foreign] journalist is the offspring from an illicit liaison between
a spy and a prostitute
By blaming protesters in the east of Ukraine, the EU is encouraging radicals in Kiev and
risks repeating what happened in Yugoslavia in the 1990s – a civil war followed by a bombing
campaign – political analyst Aleksandar Pavic told RT.
RT: A lot of denouncements have
been made by the US and the EU, stopping short of actually mentioning those responsible.
Why?
Aleksandar Pavic: It's because those are the people that are being sponsored by the West.
It's very simple; their radicals are able and allowed to do whatever they want. When it
comes to unarmed citizens trying to just protect their equal rights from the junta in Kiev,
then those are the ones who are supposedly instigating the violence. It's just a matter
of Western clients going unpunished and they are actually getting support from the West,
which is a scandal.
RT: The EU and the US clearly blame Moscow for steering it, but why are they not coming
up with any proof?
AP: They don't have proof, but we have proof that the West is instigating this. And just
the other day, Catherine Ashton, the EU's commissioner for foreign policy, pretty much gave
a green light to the extremists from Kiev. She pretty much said they had a right to establish
law and order within the borders of the country. I would say that the EU has blood on its
hands, especially Catherine Ashton. It's the same thing they did in Yugoslavia in the 90s,
when they started encouraging radicals, extremists, secessionists. They could do no wrong.
On the other hand, legal authorities in Yugoslavia could do no right. Well it's almost the
same thing, but the other way around now in Ukraine.
RT: On the one hand, they are backing Kiev's military crackdown in the east. On the
other hand, they are calling for calm. How do those two things go together?
AP: They call for calm, but they call for calm from the other side. They call for calm
from people who actually just want the federalization of Ukraine. On the other hand,
they're encouraging extremists from the Right Sector who have taken up arms, probably being
armed and advised by the West right now. They are giving them the green light. So this
makes sense from the Western view point. It's not at all fair, it's not balanced, and
it's actually a criminal sort of meddling in the internal affairs of a country. They
are instigating civil war right now.
RT: How worried are you about the situation? Is there any middle ground to be gained
at this point, as we head towards these elections on May 25? On the one hand, Russia does
not accept the legitimacy of the interim government in Kiev, but that government sees backing
from the West. Is anyone going to see eye to eye here? Or do you think the situation is
going to get worse?
AP: I'm very worried about the situation. I'm seeing a repeat of the events of 20
years ago when the West made sure that no peace settlement was reached until it served its
own interests. Instead of having peace in Yugoslavia as early as 1991, we had four years
of bloody civil war until 1995, when the West got what it wanted.
And then it opened up a new front again in 1999, with bombing Yugoslavia. They supported
terrorists in Kosovo; they're supporting them today. So as long as the West keeps doing
that, and as long as we see the same people running things in Washington and Brussels, in
London and Berlin – today as then – I don't expect any good news anytime soon, unfortunately.
RT: Do you think the elections planned for May 25 will help calm the situation?
AP: Absolutely not. This cannot be a regular election under any circumstances, even if
a ceasefire was somehow reached in the next couple of days; there's no trust within
the country anymore. It will take quite a while for that trust to be instituted. So
on May 25 to have real elections – it will be a joke.
The possibilities of peace and reconcilement between Galicia and South East of Ukraine are now haunted
by ghosts who will not be silenced. Odessa death has plunged the country into the horrors of SS crimes.
Like during WWII there are now people in Odessa who will be waiting for a loved one to return who can
never return.
The picture that emerged was one of complete chaos. Pro-Russia defenders, terrified of their attackers,
were burned to death or died of asphyxiation just metres from rooms never touched by fire or smoke.
Selected Comments
Sergei Konyushenko
Here are are some pictures from the trade union building. Text too, you may translate it with
Google.
Do not click on the link if you're not stable psychologically. Pictures are brutal. But they're
quite telling.
OMFG. International Court of Justice will have a busy time dealing with the current Ukrainian
leaders imo
Sergei Konyushenko Sergei Konyushenko
Look, you can see some pictures with corpses shot in the head and only head is burned. Seems
like they were killed before and then their heads were spilled with petroleum and fired. The rest
of the body and clothes didn't even ashed.
Vlad Tatarsky
Well, in the recent interview to Ukrainian TV channel 112 a pro-maidan journalist from Odessa
Anatoly Shariy has just claimed that he has complete evidences that Right Sector was killing the
federalists inside the House of Trade Unions before the blaze . Here is the interview:
If so than the great number of victims was not due to the fire accident during the clashes,
but the fire was supposed to hide the bodies of federalists beaten to death by the Right Sector
nazi. Which completely change all the picture of the events in Ukraine.
vr13vr Vlad Tatarsky
Some of the gruesome pictures from the aftermath in the building clearly show victims are
laying in pools of blood which suggest they were beaten before the building went on fire.
BoopyBop vr13vr
There are videos showing Ukrainian flags waving on the third floor before the building has
been burned. The only explanation is that the thugs have been finishing their victims off in
the building, then setting them on fire from within. The pregnant woman killed in one of the
offices where the flag appeared right after she stopped screaming... it's unthinkable.
Alexey Vladimirovich
http://vvv-ig.livejournal.com/690116.html
It's not Auschwitz - it's Odessa
Paul Davies
Heres a very interesting ariel shot of event at Odessa which answers a vital question...who
threw the first firebomb.
In the video we first see a peaceful Pro Russian tent encampment outside the Trade Union building
in Odessa. After a few seconds we see a crowd surging towards the encampment - obviously pro kiev
supporters.
They proceed to demolish and set fire to the camp, whilst the pro russians run for cover to
the entrance of the building.
Then we see clearly the first of the Firebombs being thrown at the entrance..
thank you so much for your link, Paul... i hope more people in the West can see this and believe
in their own eyes... they are trying to say that the anti-Kiev people trapped in the building
were responsable of their own deaths because they trhew molotovs too but the true is that it doesn't
even matter... all would have survived if they were allowed to leave the building but they weren't
until more moderate pro-Kiev people and the police couls help them, but it was too late.
LitlBludot
Mr Amos,
Your cunning, misleading headline:
"More than 60 activists detained during violence that led to people being burnt alive in trade
union building set free"
The misleading headline says it all. Those 60 "activists" had been attacked and were survivors
of the fire. They should have never been arrested, the neonazis that attacked them should have
been arrested. Instead you imply just the opposite.
Also, clicking on your name provides no information, no background, no picture.
Are you really a journalist? Are you freelance? Who pays you?
,,,,,,but facts are sacred.
Guardian editor CP Scott, 1921
tanyushka
The Government is totally hypocritical trying to blame to Police for the Odessa massacre. The
police force has been intimidated since the coup because most of their members are loyal to the
Regions Party of Yanukovich, especially those of the lower ranks. You have to understand that
the division in our country doesn't concern only East & West but also rich people, which generally
vote for Tymoshenko's Mother Land Party, and the poor people, whcih tend to vote for the Regions
Party. The police is poorly armed because Yatzeniuk doesn't trust them while the newly created
National Guard, formed mostly by Sovoboda and Right Sector people, is well armed. His main purpose
with this criticism is to have a police force formed mainly by the same people, and this is stupid
even from his point of view because the fascists and nazis can't be controlled. Think of the fatal
mistake made by the Right in Germany trusting in the nazis to do the dirty job.
Why the fire brigade didn't arrive to rescue the victims of the fire? Because they were blocked
by the Right Sector thugs. Policemen tried to save those trapped in the Trade Unions building,
but they were attacked by the Right Sector people and it was so outragoeus that even moderate
pro-Kiev people began to protes and some even tried to help rescuing them..
Vaska Tumir tanyushka
Policemen tried to save those trapped in the Trade Unions building, but they were attacked
by the Right Sector people
Here's one of the police shooting at the people trying to escape the burning building.
Outside the building, those who survived, burned and wounded, got this treatment from the Nazi
thugs the police did nothing -- but nothing -- to stop. But don't take my word for it: have a
look yourself.
Colonel of militia: the House of Trade Unions of more than 100 corpses
Just got off the phone with the police colonel Galina Zaporozhtseva.
She is now in her native Odessa ..
Media lie, a lie repeated statistical junta. There, in Jaume Unions - more than 100 corpses. 43
Odessites corpse burned "right sector" - that's just the first floor. According to her, the junta
is going to take the corpses at night and secretly buried, and then disappeared so people porazbrasyvat
statistics as "missing".
The people released from the jail in Odessa today tells, that there we about 116 people killed
at the building of Labor all together. Exept those who were burnt ar died of the smoke, there
were a lot of beaten to death or shot - inside and outside the building.
At the moment about 2000 of Right Sector arrived to Odessa. There are reports they got addresses
of the released militants and claim to finish what was begun and "to punish" them.
A thousands crowd is gathering again at the center of the city of Odessa... .
KyKaH
Just several minutes ago Odessa police gave out to Right Sector all addresses of released this
afternoon anit-maidan activists.
In the cellars of the union of Odessa found 143 corpses pro-Russian Ukrainians
Hanwell123
The Interim PM Y is a text book fascist In the Mussolini mould, full of bombast, glorifying
violence and despising compassion. He gives his orders in the style of Hitler, sacking " all the
senior police in Odessa" for example. But fascists worship Power, Authority, "Leadership". They
have been given a free hand by Obama to do what they can. No doubt the Neocons see this as a way
of putting some honest right wing backbone into the EU which they despise as made up of pink softee
liberals. They have much more in common with the East of Europe. . The European Right Wing is
surging anyway in popularity and for the EU itself to become dominated by East European fascists
(look at Poland and Hungary) would make it a very unattractive place. So liberal West Europeans,
what are you going to do about it?
Sergei Konyushenko
Damn those alien banderite beasts whose hands in blood up to the shoulders. Damn those who
is backing them. Damn Kievs authorities. Screw the EU and Obama who are supporting this blood
thirsty animals.
-about 18 corpses identified already, everyone's local.
-there were some elder people
-many with a gunshot wounds
-locals say there's a strange odor in the building, most likely ammonia
-part of a building is undamaged and at least one dead body in it
-police was totally inactive
-seems like official death toll is highly underestimated
-people seen right sector members before the massacre on the top floor
nonfiltré Troebel Sergei Konyushenko
We do NOT know who set the building on fire. You do NOT know if it was a pro Russian protester.
And this isn't even the matter at stake, the problem was those useless policemen.
Doug Salzmann nonfiltré Troebel
We do NOT know who set the building on fire.
Perhaps you do not, but I think that simply means that you are one of a steadily-decreasing
number.
The video shot from high on a nearby building makes it entirely clear who started the fire
and how they started it.
Links have been posted here numerous times. Please go watch it.
Sergei Konyushenko nonfiltré Troebel
Dozens dead Is a problem. Western media is putting a blind eye on the event.
the former head of odessa police testified that Kiev asked him to not interfere with right
sector action
terziev
Obama, Merkel and the rest of the so called "leaders" of the West, are the ones responsible
for the Odessa massacre. Is this pregnant woman a "pro-Putin militant"???
The next one responsible is the Western mainstream media, that actually conceals the truth
about the Nazi regime in Ukraine and the war it wages against its own people. Why the videos and
images from Odessa are not published on the front pages??? What kind of person could excuse these
crimes with Putin is beyond comprehension.
shirozaemon
The term 'pro-Russian activists' is not correct, especially when applied to Odessa protesters.
They regard their rally as 'anti-Maidan', and as such, it has nothing to do with Russia. Even
the Soviet symbolic doesn't necessarily mean any extra sympathies to today's Russia. Of course
they understand that Russia is no enemy to Ukraine, and that's all about this.
RememberGiap
Its interesting to note the Guardians gradual change of ' language ' as it is forced to accept
more and more evidence that suggests a sizeable proportion of ordinary East Ukrainians reject
the legitimacy of the Kiev ' Government ' .
First it was '' Russian militias '', then '' pro- Russian mobs '', the picture accompanying this
article states '' pro-Russian militants '' while the article states '' pro-Russian activists ''
. How long will it take this newspaper to accept that they're just ordinary East Ukrainians who
do not accept the legitimacy of an assorted cabal of US / EU sponsored Oligarchs and Rightists
installed in Kiev, who with their actions have ensured the implosion of Ukraine, crippling IMF
debt on ordinary Ukrainians and now a growing death toll . Or was that always the agenda behind
these events, where ordinary working-class Ukrainians of both East and West will be the only real
victims ?
Doug Salzmann terziev
According to a number of reports from the scene, that woman was a trades union worker who just
happened to be in the building when the thugs chased and trapped their intended victims.
In official Westernese, she's "collateral damage."
Russia Treats Deaths In Odessa, Ukraine Like Nazi Murders During World War II
Posted on May 4, 2014 by WashingtonsBlog
Whatever You Think of Putin, You Should Understand How Russia Thinks
Even if you think Putin
is a tyrant with ambitions to build an imperial Russia, you can't understand the war in Ukraine
unless you understand how Russians think.
20 million Russians died fighting the Nazis in World War II.
Neo Nazis just killed at least 42 Russians when they firebombed a building in Odessa, Ukraine
that the Russians had taken shelter in.
Agence France-Presse reports:
Russian official rhetoric has increasingly compared events in Ukraine to the darkest crimes
of Nazi Germany, ahead of next week's anniversary of Soviet victory in World War II.
***
The fire in the southern Ukrainian city of Odessa that claimed at least 42 lives on Friday
has been swiftly dubbed a new "reprisal raid" and even the "new Khatyn," a reference to the Belarussian
village where 149 residents were burned alive by the Nazis in 1943.
***
The Khatyn massacre went down in Russian history books as one of the Nazis' most brutal "reprisal
raids," a term the Kremlin has now adopted to describe the offensive Kiev authorities have launched
against pro-Moscow rebels in the flashpoint town of Slavyansk.
***
"What has happened, especially in the Trade Unions House, brings to mind the crimes of the
Nazis during World War II," pro-Kremlin lawmaker Leonid Slutsky told reporters in Moscow, referring
to the Odessa fire.
"These are the new Khatyn and Auschwitz."
A senior official in the pro-Kremlin government of Crimea, Ukraine's peninsula taken over by
Russia in March, chimed in.
"The last time people were burned alive in Ukraine was by the Nazis during the Great Patriotic
War," Rustam Temirgaliyev said on Facebook, referring to the Russian name for World War II.
***
Russia's losses and sacrifice during World War II remain a hugely sensitive subject in the
country ….
To the extent that the U.S. and Nato are backing the right-wing Ukrainians, we are creating
conditions that the Russian leadership – rightly or wrongly – considers an existential threat.
vr13vr Mr1Cynical
Is there any other way to accept what "peaceful pro-Ukrainian demonstrators" did in Odessa?
Or is there any other way to explain that the Right Sector, now a backbone of the Ukrainian National
Guard, openly marches with swastikas in Kiev and that in L'vov they are celebrating SS Division
Galicia?
This newspaper's coverage of this crisis and persistent incitement of worsening diplomatic
relations with Russia on the fabricated grounds that it is the initiator of this unrest is an
absolute disgrace to both journalism and common decency.
JMWong Forthestate
This is called the corruption of western media by the propaganda department of the US. The
propaganda department of the US writes the articles and send them to the mainstream western media
for publication. The mainstream western media receive payments and blindly publish the articles.
However, the western media hypocritically call themselves "independent".
DontMakeSense
It's amazing...
...the lengths that Western press will go to cover up and try to downplay this horrendous crime.
Any excuse will do, since victims are Pro - Russians.
Sub context served = pro Russians asked for it, they deserved it.
Appalling,
Worried9876
"I personally blame the security services and law enforcement office for doing nothing," he
said. "[They] are inefficient and they violated the law."
So he admits the right wing were
responsible for the burning. Yet fuckin Kerry keep on demanding Russia stops this violence.
panpipes
Not exactly what he "admitted". What I saw is that he blamed the police for not intervening.
Rolex44
No condemnation of the neo nazis killers? so it was all the police's fault they died. A very sick
demented man.
KingRolo
True, I think the BBC will find it tough explaining to viewers that Kerry wants 'peace' but really
wants the Nazis to massacre innocent communities (that's if viewers are still dumb enough to watch
the BBC)
Ishowerdaily
Some of my ancestors fled the pogroms at the end of the nineteenth century, those who stayed didn't
survive the 20th. It was obvious from December that the street fighters in Maidan (horizontal
red and black flags, faux Nordic runes and svoboda flags) were fascists, and it was obvious what
the consequences of their victory would be.
I said then that everybody who supported them or
denied the truth of who they where would be complicit in the crimes they would go on to commit.
Whose side are you on Howard?
RussianFriend Ishowerdaily
Very very unfortunately, Howard does not have the right to choose which side to be on -- it's
his paymasters who choose instead of him. Such are the bitter facts of life.
Mr1Cynical
America's "Immaculate Conception" Theory of War Crimes
Posted on May 4, 2014 by WashingtonsBlog
Ukrainian War Crimes Whitewashed by Western Press
After more than 30 people died in a fire in the Ukrainian seaside resort town of Odessa, most
of the Western press pretended that no one knows what happened or whose fault it was. For example,
see these stories from the Guardian and BBC.
But USA Today reports:
Witnesses and journalists reported that as the building burned with people inside, a crowd
shouted, "Glory to Ukraine!" and "Death to enemies!" [These are neo-Nazi slogans.]***
[T]he Associated Press reported that the Russian sympathizers took refuge in the trade union
hall on Kulikovo Field Square after government supporters rousted their encampment outside and
then burned their tents. Police said the building was set on fire with Molotov cocktails.
At 5 seconds into this 15-second video, you can see a Molotov cocktail being thrown at the
building in which the Russian sympathizers:
Former Associated Press and Newsweek reporter Robert Parry points out how bad New York Times
coverage of the Odessa attack has been:
Rest of the article
Only now tide is turning! Only now T. Friedman in the Times acknowledged that Putin is a creation
of American policy of Bush 1st and Clinton who were spreading NATO onto countries around Russia
(Gorbachov was given the word to the contrary when he disbanded Warsaw pact). Only now the Times
published detailed report on people in Slavyansk how all of them are pro Russian Ukrainians and
how they use old outdated armament...
irgun777
The prime minister preferred not to mention the R. Sector activists
from his own party who first burned the tents outside the building.
He blamed the police instead.
Rolex44 irgun777
That's because he wouldn't last a minute if he critiszed the Right Sector as their office is
not far from his.
monkie irgun777
The prime minister preferred not to mention the R. Sector activists from his own party who
first burned the tents outside the building.
He blamed the police instead.
its one thing for neo-fascist scum to not wish to take responsibility for their own murderous
mob, its quite another for the guardian reporter to deliberately lie to us, and for the guardian
editors to allow this or encourage him to use language as a weapon. is this what the scott trust
was set up for? for the guardian to publish lies and propaganda obscuring the fact that right-sector
neo-fascists were involved? it is sickening, has howard amos no shame at all?
More than 40 people were killed on Friday during street battles that escalated into pro-Ukraine
activists launching a full-scale assault on the trade union building
i for one will never buy the guardian again due to this kind of coverage of the crisis
in the ukraine.
Oilyheart Rolex44
Exactly. Right Sector is in charge in Kiev and Right Sector is in charge in Odessa. They know
it, everybody in Ukraine knows it. The Trade Union building in Odessa is now a national memorial
to the victims of their atrocity, many of whom were office workers and not even protesters.
Unfortunately for Right Sector, they have placed themselves in an awkward predicament: if they
dare to remove the candles, and flowers, and icons, anger will boil over, and the citizens will
kick their asses. If they don't remove these powerful expressions of condolence, then the people
will smell the fear and kick their asses anyway.
lids
Now that the situation in Ukraine has officially been upgraded to "war", what really happens
on the ground will remain largely wrapped by the fog of war on either side, with just one thing
assured: a war it may be but more than anything it is a proxy war - one in which both western
and Russian interests are manifest in the fighting, and killing, of mostly innocent civilians
in Ukraine - a carbon copy replica of what happened last year in Syria.
The latest reminder of just this comes from AFP which reports, citing Germany's Bild, that
"dozens of specialists from the US Central Intelligence Agency and Federal Bureau of Investigation
are advising the Ukrainian government."
From AFP:
Citing unnamed German security sources, Bild am Sonntag said the CIA and FBI agents were
helping Kiev end the rebellion in the east of Ukraine and set up a functioning security structure.
It said the agents were not directly involved in fighting with pro-Russian militants. "Their
activity is limited to the capital Kiev," the paper said.
The FBI agents are also helping the Kiev government fight organised crime, it added.
A group specialised in financial matters is to help trace the wealth of former Ukrainian
president Viktor Yanukovych, according to the report.
On the surface, this report is hardly surprising: we reported a month ago, subsequently
confirmed by the White House, that CIA director Brennan had "secretly" visited Kiev in early
April. It stands to logic that he was hardly alone and continuing the proud tradition of Libya,
Egypt and Syria, the CIA was merely getting started unfolding the agency's core competency:
regional destabilization.
What is very surprising is that Germany's press is finally stepping away from the western
media propaganda umbrella and starting to report the side of the narrative that is in direct
opposition to US interests in either Ukraine, or Germany.
So just who, and why, is pulling the strings on Germany's media outlets in a way that goes
against the official Merkel fiction, if in agreement with Germany's commercial and industrial
interests (as well as those of Europe's commission himself)?
And how soon before Germany's position, one clearly against the imposition of further sanctions
on Russia and the additional alienation of the Kremlin, puts Germany on direct collision course
with Obama and the US state department? And what then: will Germany, shunned by the US, have
no choice but to reallign with the ascendent Eurasian axis of China and Russia. Stay tuned.
SteveK9
Could the title and subtitle be more deceitful? This is like blaming the people who were burned
alive.
SoloRolo SteveK9
Take heart from the fact that fewer and fewer people are deceived. The US/EU narrative is disintegrating.
In this instance, the amount of hard evidence has passed the "tipping point" beyond which any
attempt to distort the facts could have any hope of being sustainable.
mi_mig
All of the sides in this "war" have a common enemy and that's the IMF. Some of the people are
willing to sign up for generations of debt slavery to the IMF for some temporary funding, the
rest of the population is telling the IMF to shove their dirty money where the sun don't shine.
Slavery or independence. The IMF doesn't care who gets killed in the "war" as long as they get
their debt slaves under control.
But the real target is BRICS, that's what threatens the IMF monopoly on money. Damned idiots
in Kiev know nothing of history or economics.
Pannalu mi_mig
The IMF is a system of exploitation and Greed.
I fear, Ukraine will be worse off than Greece.
Skywithclouds mi_mig
Higher-ups in Kiev are aiming to pack their pockets, ordinary people are either understand
it but can't do anything, or naive to think IMF will bring them happiness...
...Yanus Milteynus, a 42-year-old construction worker and pro-Russian activist, said he watched
from the roof as the pro-Ukrainian crowd threw firebombs into the building's lower windows, while
those inside feared being beaten to death by the crowd if they tried to flee.
"Some people jumped or tried to run away, but they chased them and beat them," he said.
Videos of the inferno, however, also show pro-Ukrainian activists trying to move scaffolding from
a stage to the building, to rescue those inside.
Only when the police managed to form a cordon to escort out those rescued by firefighters was
he able to leave. If the roof caught fire before then, he said, "I would have stayed and sizzled
like a sausage in a frying pan."
The conflict is hardening hearts on both sides. As the building burned, Ukrainian activists sang
the Ukrainian national anthem, witnesses on both sides said. They also hurled a new taunt: "Colorado"
for the Colorado potato beetle, striped red and black like the pro-Russian ribbons. Those outside
chanted "burn Colorado, burn," witnesses said. Swastikalike symbols were spray painted on the building,
along with graffiti reading "Galician SS," though it was unclear when it had appeared, or who had
painted it.
"The biggest thing they ever did to make me hate this country was sing the anthem," Mr. Milteynus
said. "I was going to die, and they sang the anthem. I hate them deeply."
[May 04, 2014] Odessa: elimination of Kulikovo Polye protest and killing of people inside House
of Unions with subsequent imitation of death from fire.
This is worse then junta crime, this is a blunder...
Уже понятно, что в Доме Профсоюзов в Одессе было убито много более 42 человек. Провокаторы
увлекли людей в здание, где их можно было убивать безнаказанно, с наслаждением и без свидетелей.
Пожара внутри здания не было - была постановка пожара, чтобы списать на него массовое уничтожение
граждан Украины.
http://news-mail.by/.../kak-ubivali-odessitov-v-dome.../
Looks like DW in not an independent source and closely follows Washington Obcom Party line. Sometimes
I want to remind myself that I am reading DW not, NYT.
Russia called the Security Council's 13th meeting on the conflict in Ukraine on Friday in New
York, warning the government in Kyiv to stop its military operations in the east of the country.
Ukraine had announced a military effort to retake the city of Slovyansk early on Friday, and the
United Nations diplomats convened shortly after reports emerged of a fire killing more than 30 people
in Odessa - a comparatively calm city in the conflict until this point.
"If the criminal misadventures of Kyiv are not swiftly stopped then catastrophic consequences
for Ukraine cannot be avoided," Russia's ambassador to the UN, Vitaly Churkin, said. "Of particular
concern is information that during the punitive operations of the Ukrainian armed forces and illegal
ultranationalist groups there was English on the radio waves as well as amongst those attacking in
Slovyansk."
Churkin urged against "any sort of outside interference" in Ukraine, accusing Washington of "blatant"
double standards for its accusations about Russia orchestrating separatist actions in Ukraine.
Council still deadlocked
This was met with reciprocal allegations of hypocrisy for Russia, however. Britain's ambassador
Mark Lyall Grant said that the two Ukrainian military helicopters shot down on Friday, with "sophisticated"
weaponry, "reaffirms our assessment that the armed groups include professionals funded and equipped
by Russia."
"The scale of Russian hypocrisy is breathtaking," Lyall Grant said, calling Ukraine's military
efforts in the east of the country "proportionate and measured actions."
US ambassador Samantha Power called the charges from Russia "ridiculous and false," countering
that Ukraine instead faced "Russian-sponsored paramilitary violence." France's ambassador, Gerard
Araud, said that Moscow had "released bands of thugs on Ukraine … and is suddenly discovering this
mixture might escape its control."
UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon reiterated his concern and called for maximum restraint from
all sides in Ukraine.
"Escalating violence and reported further loss of life in the city of Slovyansk today is a stark
reminder of how dangerous the situation has become," Ban said in statement.
Fire in Odessa, fighting in Slovyansk
Two days after saying it had lost control of parts of eastern Ukraine, the interim government
in Kyiv on Friday announced the start of the first serious government offensive, focusing on the
separatist stronghold of Slovyansk.
Acting President Oleksandr Turchynov said that many insurgents were killed or wounded in the operation,
which began around dawn, also noting that two military helicopters were shot down. Associated Press
journalists within Slovyansk reported at nightfall that government troops controlled all the major
roads into the city, but that separatists retained control of the city center.
A spokesman for Russian President Vladimir Putin said that the military operation in Slovyansk
"effectively destroyed the last hope for the implementation of the Geneva agreement," the four-way
deal brokered by Kyiv, Moscow, the US and the EU around two weeks ago in Switzerland.
People wait to be rescued on the second storey's ledge during a fire at the trade union building
in Odessa May 2, 2014. At least 38 people were killed in a fire on Friday in the trade union building
in the centre of Ukraine's southern port city of Odessa, regional police said. (Photo via REUTERS/Yevgeny
Volokin)
More than 30 people died in this Odessa blaze
In Odessa, meanwhile, street clashes between pro-Russian and pro-Kyiv protesters ultimately claimed
more than 30 lives. A trade union building, where pro-Russian protesters had apparently taken shelter
after street battles, caught fire, killing 31 people. Police did not give details about how the fire
began, but Ukrainian media reports said separatists had taken shelter there after pro-Kyiv protesters
broke up their encampment outside.
United States President Barack Obama and German Chancellor Angela Merkel, meeting in Washington
on Friday, both raised the prospect of further sanctions against Russia, especially should the unrest
hamper plans for presidential elections in Ukraine on May 25. Although the EU and US favored a diplomatic
solution to further sanctions, Merkel said, "it's very much up to the Russians which road we will
embark on."
Russia had said earlier it would react if its interests or people were attacked in Ukraine.
Do you think Moscow will now launch a military intervention in Ukraine to protect those interests?
Frankly, at the moment I do not see these interests deeply threatened. As far as I know, the Ukrainian
military action against Slovyansk in particular has stalled again. It looks to me like the people
on the ground in Slovyansk have enough capacity to prevent a Ukrainian resumption of control over
that city, and I hope the Russians will be cautious about a direct military engagement. There are
good reasons for them to be cautious. They have 40,000 or so well-armed, well-equipped and apparently
well-trained soldiers on the other side of the border. They could certainly move into Ukraine. But
what then? There would be resistance and the cost of maintaining forces in the field would be high
and it's not obvious once they got in how they could get out, if they indeed intended to get out.
I think they will remain cautious about this and I don't think they have a reason to move yet.
The larger point, leaving eastern Ukraine aside, is that Russia claims a right to protect its
interests and its citizens. But what does this mean not just in Ukraine, but also in Georgia or for
that matter in Kazakhstan or in extremis - and I don't expect this - in the Baltics.
The support of neo-nazis in Ukraine destroys the last pretexts and wakes up nightmares of
the past
It appears that, for at least six years now, the West is trapped in a situation of permanent recession,
while there are many who predict new economic crises in the near future. As long as this situation
continues, the true face of neoliberalism and the huge hypocrisy of the West become more and more
clear. The neoliberal doctrine has been converted, a long time now, into a global dictatorship, which
is revealing more and more its true face and seeks to expand its power in every corner of the world.
The events in Ukraine have shown that, the big capital has no hesitation to ally even with
the neo-nazis, in order to impose the new world order. This is not something new of course. The connection
of Hitler with the German economic oligarchs, but also with other major Western companies, before
and during the WWII, is well known.
Besides, the history of neoliberalism starts with a dictatorship rather than a democracy, when
dictator Pinochet with the US support, ousted the democratically elected president of Chile, Salvador
Allende, and Chile became the first "lab-rat" of neoliberalism. Milton Friedman and the "Chicago
Boys" were the main advisors of the dictator. Chile transformed into an exploitation field for the
American companies and powerful cartels, while the majority of the people suffered in poverty by
an atrocious dictatorship.
The economic crisis is the main cause for the increasing limitation of democracy in Greece. The
Greek government, in many cases, takes decisions through legislative acts without the approvement
of the parliament, demonstrations are increasingly criminalized, like in Spain, and it will be worth
also to remember how the PMs in Greece and Italy were replaced through an anti-democratic process,
by the banks' puppets Papademos and Monti. Europe, which supposedly cares about human rights, has
silenced in front of crimes like those in Lampedusa and Farmakonisi and hides the problem of illegal
immigration.
This time, however, the last "fig leaf" of the West has fallen for good, exposing its huge hypocrisy.
While until today, operations and wars in other countries (Yugoslavia, Iraq, etc.) were taking place
under the excuse of the fight against terrorism, the supposed "liberation" of people from authoritarian
regimes, or, the supposed defence of human rights, there is no excuse in the case of Ukraine and
mostly Crimea. The right of self-determination is not applicable in this case, according to the Western
hypocrites, who activate this right only in "special" cases to serve their interests, like in the
case of Kosovo.
The most terrifying of all however, is not that the West has silenced in front of the decrees
of the new Ukrainian leadership, through which is targeting the minorities, but the fact that the
West allied with the neo-nazis, while according to some information has also funded their actions
as well as other extreme nationalist groups during the riots in Kiev.
Especially Europe, has already sacrifice its principles and values on the altar of banks and markets.
All indications point to the fact that, the global economic elite seeks to impose the new world order
through the neoliberal dictatorship, everywhere, by any means ...
Both John Mearsheimer and, especially, Stephen Cohen are both extremely smart and knowledgeable academics
and it is a crying shame that these two men are so completely ignored by the current US elites. I
highly recommend this very good show. Enjoy!
... ... ...
Personal note: I want to add something here. Mearsheimer and Cohen are the living proof
that the caricature which a lot of non-US people have about Americans being arrogant, ignorant and
stupid is fundamentally wrong. During the Cold War an entire generation of very savvy academics and
analysts materialized who were refined, well educated and sophisticated thinkers with the ability
to truly look ahead in a non-ideological fashion. I have had the pleasure and honor to study with
Paul Nitze and I personally knew Admiral Elmo Zumwalt and I can attest that while not necessarily
always sinless saints, these men were truly remarkable decision-makers who loved their country and
who wanted to do what is right for it. Listening to Mearsheimer and Cohen I had a flashback to my
conversation with Nitze who by the end of his life also had reached a certain wisdom and detachment
which allowed him to see things from a higher perspective. I also hope that Steven Cohen will impress
those who naively believe that all American Jews are sayanim or AIPAC/JINSA/ZOA agents as this is
far from being the case. The USA is far more complex than a lot of non-Americans think and it should
not be judged by the performance of clowns like Dubya, Obama or Biden.
He begins with some 'anti-Putin' obeisances to orthodoxy - necessary to get any kind of hearing
in the west I'm afraid - but he gets better quickly and provides the Bundestag with a few unwelcome
and uncomfortable home-truths. Merkel squirms and the assembled center-right members maintain
a stoney-faced silence - but some solid applause from the left.
I sense a deep and disturbing sense of deja-vu informing Germans with any understanding of
real (as opposed to victor's) history, and hope that such understanding may be gaining ground.
Good work by
wikispooks
and niqnaq,
improving the presentation of the transcript, adding commentary and making it into readable articles!
Please give credit to the original producers of the video, namely
Poznavatelnoe.tv
They permit re-publication of the video, as long as their name is mentioned (it's all over the
video anyway).
New Insight only provided the English subtitles, no credit needed. :)
Also good work by those who provided further depth on the many topics touched upon in the video.
Blogger Rowan Berkeley:
I have seen some interesting remarks by russian-speakers on Moon of Alabama, about the Q&A
following Fursev's lecture. I don't think those were translated by New Insight, were they?
Anonymous Brian_J:
Ray McGovern has published a comprehensive piece on propaganda wars which considers the issues
discussed by Cohen and Mearsheimer..
It is easy to blame "Russian propaganda" for just about everything, including the public distrust
of the endless propaganda pouring forth from Official Washington and its "fawning corporate media."
But people tire of the constant spin from U.S. officials and the one-sided coverage by the U.S.
mainstream press. I may be naïve about this, but I think people really do prefer the truth.
I have long destroyed my old archives and I simply did not want to scout the Internet for hours
to find out what the Ukraine had inherited from the USSR. I knew that the Ukies had inherited what
was called the "2nd strategic echelon" which translates into "not the newest weapons systems, but
a lot of them". And today, I suddenly came across
an interesting article in the
Russian press which gave me exactly what I wanted: a description of what the armed forces of
the independent Ukraine began with. As it turns out, the Ukraine had:
700,000 servicemen
14 motorized rifle divisions.
4 tank divisions
3 artillery divisions
8 artillery brigades
4 Spetsnaz brigades
2 airborne brigade
7 attack helicopters regiments
3 air armies (about 1100 combat aircraft)
1 independent Air Defense Army
Not bad eh?
Today there are all sorts of figures thrown around about how big the Ukrainian military is, anywhere
from several tens of thousands to a few hundred. It really all depends on what you count and how
you count. We should stay clear from this kind of bean count and simply state the Ukrainian military
is both unwilling and/or unable to crush a rebellion composed only of a few hundred armed men backed
by a few thousand unarmed civilians (I am talking about the folks actually manning barricades and
occupying buildings, not about sympathizers). In other words, the pro-Russian insurgency in the eastern
Ukraine could be defeated with just one battalion of airborne troops. And yet, the regime cannot
even muster that much.
Anonymous said...
Thanks again for putting yourself out here. Always insightful. Here's another (seemingly aligned)
perspective.
This is a new post from Chris Floyd. It covers what Saker said about Russia in the 90's.
Unknown said...
The US MIC is salivating at the prospect another tax-payer funded hardware (and a lot of training
contracts for both uniformed services and mercenary outfits) give-away program. I have no doubt
that the coup gov was urged by the US to do this.
Anonymous said...
What's interesting is:
1. US wedge between Germany and Russia (Eurasian Economic Union) aka return of the US into
Eastern Europe.
2. Naming Russia enemy of NATO.
3. Reviving NATO power
4. Transatlantic and Transpacific Unions (economic slavery to the US).
5. Ukraine: will "the little green men" emerge in the pro-Russian defensive positions without
radio communication activity on the Russian side which made CIA and other US military intelligence
fools for themselves?
6. Ukraine: why the Kiev thugs cry through every media bullhorn/outlet they will start military
hostilities against civilians tomorrow morning? Did Hitler published in press in advance the blueprints
of Barbarossa Plan?
7. Ukraine: how many death will make Russians to press the button "go ahead" for their armed
forces?
Gareth said...
Here is an excellent and up to date source of information on the activities on NATO
I think that the latest economic statistics from The Real Evil Empire of Eternal Exceptionalism
may, in large part, explain the reckless aggression of the psychopaths at present. The date at
which China surpasses the USA as the world's largest economy (and without the gigantic incubus
of the USA's massive engine of self-destruction, the financial kleptocracy)grows closer every
day. I've noticed that the local ruling Rightwing psychos are growing more frantic here in Oz.
They constantly speak of China being in trouble (they have predicted that for forty years)because
its growth is 'only' 7.4%, whereas growth in the REEEE of 0.1% (minus 1% without Obamacare's contribution)is
another sign of our Imperial Master's 'resilience'. And the current hard Right Federal regime
has just had a hand-picked cabal of psychopaths present an economic blue-print to privatise the
country and turn it into a fully-fledged neo-feudal Hell of inequality and privilege. Social solidarity
zero, greedy, atomised, hyper-individualism, infinite.
As if the last forty years of neo-liberal class warfare and stagnation, boom and bust and rising
inequality was a very good thing, indeed, and we need more of it. This is where Putin is winning,
I would say. The rulers of the West are now so plainly revealing themselves as evil, endlessly
mendacious psychopaths who fear and hate all others (including one another-as they say, 'If you
want a friend on Wall Street, buy a dog'), that someone like Putin, merely by standing up to them
makes himself attractive to the remaining fraction capable of independent thought. Which is why
brainwashing sewers like the odious 'The Guardian' are screeching that RT must be banned, and
the MSM is united in hysteria in denouncing the evil Putin.
The plebs are waking up, and the Bosses are worried.
Anonymous said...
Dear saker- I agree with paul craig-there is no point of Russia thinking of anglosphere world
anything but as permanent enemy and deal with the situation if Russia wants to survive.
===============================
quote "Washington Drives The World To War - Paul Craig Roberts
April 14, 2014
Quote "
The danger for Russia is that the Russian government will rely on diplomacy, international
organizations, international cooperation, and on the common sense and self-interest of German
politicians and politicians in other of Washington's European puppet states.
For Russia this could be a fatal mistake. There is no good will in Washington, only mendacity.
Russian delay provides Washington with time to build up forces on Russia's borders and in the
Black Sea and to demonize Russia with propaganda and whip up the US population into a war frenzy.
The latter is already occurring.
In my opinion, Washington does not want the Ukraine matters settled in a diplomatic
and reasonable way. It might be the case that Russia's best move is immediately to occupy
the Russian territories of Ukraine and re-absorb the territories into Russia from whence they
came. This should be done before the US and its NATO puppets are prepared for war. It is more
difficult for Washington to start a war when the objects of the war have already been lost.
Russia will be demonized with endless propaganda from Washington whether or not Russia re-absorbs
its traditional territories. If Russia allows these territories to be suppressed by Washington,
the prestige and authority of the Russian government will collapse. Perhaps that is what Washington
is counting on.
In my opinion, the Russian and Chinese governments have made serious strategic mistakes
by remaining within the US dollar-based international payments system. The BRICS and any others
with a brain should instantly desert the dollar system, which is a mechanism for US imperialism.
The countries of the BRICS should immediately create their own separate payments system and
their own exclusive communications/Internet system.
Russia and China have stupidly made these strategic mistakes,
By Paul Craig Roberts
Почитал, проанализировал, посмотрел фото и видео - нет, убийство в Одессе не было стихийной выходкой
разбушевавшихся отморозков, это была тщательно спланированная провокация.
Фарион: "Браво, Одеса. Перлина українського Духу. Батьківщина великих націоналістів Івана та Юрія
Лип. Нехай горять чорти у пеклі. Найкращі повстанці це футбольні фани. Браво."
Сука. Рука бы не дрогнула. Как, думаю, не дрогнет вскоре у тех, кто будет судить киевских убийц.
Пусть даже и судом Линча.
Судя по всему, там все ещё хуже. Похоже, тамошние "гапоны" просто заманили
людей в Дом Профсоюзов, где их уже ждала засада. Жертв сначала поубивали, а уж потом подожгли.
Часть из них, видимо, перед смертью пытали, какое уж там "отравление угарным газом".
Так что, из трагедии в Одессе торчат уши тех же граждан, что организовали расстрел на Институтской
в феврале.
Кстати, Денис, мы с вами, я так понял, земляки - приморцы. Вы тоже утром 3 мая по россии24
видели после репортажей из Одессы ролики со средством от колорадских жуков? А то народ с запада
не верит, говорит, у них такого не было.
Что-то мне 93-й просто вспомнился, когда твари в ящике радостно каждый танковый
выстрел по БД комментировали. А гражданка Ахеджакова требовала "придавить гадину". 20 лет прошло,
а уроды в ящике все те же...
Хуёво анализировал...
И мне интересно, что бы сделал верховный главнокомандующий, если бы дальний восток начал бузить
на предмет перехода в Китай.
А то, что у нас в Чечне было ну никак не соотносится с желанием "сохранить страну от распада".
Вообще ничего общего, да?
Ты тоже придерживаешься версии украинских СМИ - "колорады"-россияне в Доме
Профсоюзов сожгли сами себя?
Дальний Восток? Да вот отчего-то не отделяется и желания такого нет! Наверное, потому что в
стране всё в порядке и у власти правительство, а не кучка клоунов Обамы?
То, что у нас было в Чечне - это вина ельцинской банды, которая не лучше нынешней украинской.
да уж, украинская пропаганда уже завралась совсем - всегда читаю версии обеих
сторон и когда по мнению киевских властей получилось, что "мимимишные безоружные футбольные
фанаты подверглись тщательно спланированному нападению антимайдановцев, которые стреляли в
них из автоматов, а потом решили забаррикадироваться в административном здании, где сами себя
нечаянно подожгли и начали бросаться из окон, а в это время добрые волонтеры отбивали их от
толпы, требующей суда Линча".... вот просто ну уже, по-моему, и сами западэнцы начинают понимать,
что милых и добрых футбольных фанов-ультрас не бывает по определению.. а уж представить, как
их безоружных избивают простые одесситы - это из области научной фантастики... про то, зачем
может понадобиться "агремморам", которые "напали на безоружных фанатов", прятаться от этих
"безоружных фанатов" в здании, вообще промолчу... имхо, даже если не знать вообще ничего про
украину, поверить в киевскую версию невозможно. Читаю киевскую версию событий и вспоминается
"Потерпевший шел, споткнулся, упал на нож - и так три раза"
з.ы. - на всякий случай, я за мир: пусть в Киеве и западных обласятх будет та власть, которую
они сами себе захотели, но и в Крыму и на Востоке пусть будут у руля те люди, которых выбрали
жители этой части страны. А чья территория будет - украинская, российская, да хоть американская,
не суть
Я не согласен - никто их не выбирал, кроме Нуланд, метиса и Ко. И в гейропу
я не хочу. И америкосам жопы вытирать не хочу. Жить хочу, детей воспитывать, к родственникам
в Ростовскую область спокойно ездить хочу. Но пиндосы меня не спрашивают, они же обещали гейропе
газ дешевый, свой они до 2020 не смогут дать, нужен наш. А залежи, ЕМНИП, у нас, на Подолье
и Донбасе. Не хочу сдохнуть, когда его добывать начнут. Мутантом стать не хочу, когда в Чернобыль
начнут радиактивные отходы свозить со всего мира. И я не одинок в своем желании, но нас слишком
мало, наверное и поэтому нас не слышат и не собираются. Потому что власть, СМИ принадлежат
коломойским и порошенкам.
Если честно, то блядь (извините за мой французский), ежели вдруг пронесет
и не сожгут-застрелят-забьют живьем, то тут половине населения свидания даже не с психологами,
а с психиатрами гарантировано. А кто будет у власти, бандиты, военные, Дарт Вейдер - фиолетово
уже. Лишь бы не было хуже, чем сейчас. Как я скучаю за януковощем... Было бедно, но более-менее
спокойно. Две недели назад пытался ментам позвонить - у соседей какие-то вопли были, грохот.
Самому пойти посмотреть страшно, честно признаюсь. Так вот - по 102 взяли мой номер домашний,
через пять минут перезвонили из райотдела, и назвав меня по имени-отчеству! культурно спросили:
"а может мы не приедем, может уже все тихо?".
Для справки - наш город всегда "менты держали". Все, это полный трындец стране.
Официальная реакция на события в Одессе - это ВСЁ. Ритуальное увольнение начальника милиции якобы
должно успокоить людей, о да. И это на фоне задержанных только с одной стороны (причём, стороны пострадавшей),
на фоне отсутствия даже попыток одёрнуть чёрноротых тварей с депутатскими мандатами, на фоне вранья
про сгоревших россиян (за которое даже не потрудились извиниться), на фоне "сами себя сожгли"...
Одесса - это развилка. Она могла стать отрезвлением - люди, что же мы делаем-то? - как отрезвлением
для Юго-Востока послужила "небесная сотня" Майдана, после которой вся поддержка Януковича обратилась
в двести полубезумных бабулек. Даже при том, что именно посредством "небесной сотни" Януковича и
выпихнули из власти, замарав кровью, к которой он не имел отношения, и изваляв его в смоле и перьях
якобы трусости и нерешительности - даже при этом. Одесская огненная жертва тоже могла стать подобным
жутким искуплением ради примирения. Но - нет. Хунта на этой развилке повернула в строго противоположную
сторону, тем самым объявив гражданскую войну окончательно и бесповоротно развязанной.
Собственно, даже предварительный анализ событий показывает, что бойня и была организована именно
что властью. Разве что события "слегка" вышли из-под контроля - да и то не факт. Самая, пожалуй,
адекватная версия событий изложена -
вот здесь. И это ещё без
разбора того, а что именно происходило внутри Дома профсоюзов, кто там людей отстреливал, кто отрезал
их от перехода в безопасную часть здания, по сути загнав в огненное кольцо. И это без вопросов о
том, отчего убийцы (пусть даже невольные) находятся на свободе, что по сути есть легализация ОХОТЫ
одной части сограждан на другую, прямое указание на то, что МОЖНО и что за это ничего не будет. Но
даже без этих уточнений можно сделать однозначный вывод - хунта работает не на стабилизацию положения,
а ровно наоборот - на превращение страны в Югославию.
При этом, судя по реакции ширнармасс, половина страны к войне не просто готова, она и УЖЕ воюет
- даже если пока что только с диванов. Но и вторая половина страны просыпается, и начинает это понимать.
Понимать, что их собираются убивать. Что их собираются жечь. Что их собираются резать. И что всё
это - ВСЕРЬЁЗ - а все возможные "понарошку" закончились раз и навсегда. Как и в целом возможность
диалога. Собственно, до уже полного осознания этого Юго-Востоком остался всего один шаг - принять
положение вещей как данность.
Что будет дальше? Дальше вполне понятно, что будет. Нагляднее, чем Галковский, я это описать всё
равно не смогу. Да, вот именно
это - нас завтра и ждёт. А про иллюзии лучше забыть. И понять, что выбирать сторону в любом случае
придётся - в гражданской войне иначе не получается.
Я не стану обвинять украинскую сторону. Люди и есть люди, стадо и есть стадо. Их так долго готовили
к войне с русскими, что они в угаре ненависти даже не замечают, что вместо этого их заставят воевать
с другими украинцами. И я даже не стану больше пытаться объяснить, что те, кто скачет по крышкам
гробов, физически не могут восприниматься как люди, что это предельная степень дегуманизации, после
которой ты имеешь дело не с человеком, а с животным. Но и разговаривать с животными - я тоже не вижу
особого смысла. НЕ О ЧЕМ.
И ещё одно, последнее. Моя позиция известна более чем - я и Майдан, и пророссийское движение воспринимал
как одинаковую мерзость, в равной степени опасную для страны, и в равной степени подлежащую искоренению.
Как сепаратисты, так и революционеры хороши лишь ЧУЖИЕ - особенно если они гадят соседу, за счёт
которого можно тем самым поживиться. Свои же что сепаратисты, что революционеры приемлемы лишь в
одном состоянии - в тюрьме. И всё же разница при этом - есть.
И дело даже не в сакраментальном "не мы это начали" - разница в другом. Сепаратизм в своём самом
удачном исходе это отторжение ЧАСТИ территории страны, что несомненно зло, но как-то пережить можно.
А вот удавшаяся революция - это обрушение ВСЕЙ страны в хаос. Посему когда ситуация выбора меньшего
зла стоит именно так - или-или - то в общем-то и выбора особого не остаётся.
А что касается "они зовут Россию ввести войска, они зовут врагов"... Враг врагу тоже рознь. Когда
вы звали США ввести войска НАТО - вы призывали при этом куда более страшного врага. Который даже
и без ввода войск сейчас, руками своих марионеток при власти, ввергает страну в кровавый хаос - целясь
при этом даже не в нас, мы просто пушечное мясо, расходный материал в геополитических играх - целясь
при этом в своего основного соперника, Европу. А уж если и правда что представить себе кровавую мясорубку
под эгидой "миротворцев"... На фоне этого даже естественный враг Россия оказывается единственным
возможным другом. Как сказала недавно одна крымчанка, хоть и немного по другому поводу - "Да хоть
и правда что в Турцию!"
Мы здесь, на Юго-Востоке, долго становились украинцами. Отнюдь не 23 года. Всю советскую историю,
всю дореволюционную историю мы пропитывались украинством, и всё дальше отходили от российских корней
и российского родства. И мы украинцами в результате стали. Да, мы другие украинцы, отличные как от
Малороссии, так и тем более от Галичины. Да, наша новороссийская история и суть и не давала, да и
не дала бы никогда нам стать иными - мы такие как есть, быть может и "неправильные", но всё же несомненно
украинцы. Теперь же нам придётся отказаться от этого имени, и начать вспоминать, что мы и русские
тоже. И понимать, что нам ничего иного и не остаётся, кроме как становиться русскими теперь уже полностью
и бесповоротно. Да, это больно. Да, это по-живому. Но и иного выбора нам не оставили. В том числе
и из-за огненной жертвы, которая попросту не имеет права остаться бесполезной.
the_fencer
May. 4th, 2014 11:38 am (UTC)
зафиксируем этот момент: мы о нём вчера беседовали.
выборы случатся? какое ваше мнение?
loboff
May. 4th, 2014 11:39 am (UTC)
А какая уже разница? Выборы ничего не решат. Особенно с учётом мартовских поправок.
the_fencer
May. 4th, 2014 11:45 am (UTC)
мне любопытно просто. выборы - это как минимум приход к власти других людей. в том же Донецке
на среднем уровне пока полная нерешительность и неразбериха: кого-то уже сняли и назначили, но
все понимают что после выборов пойдёт вторая волна чисток уже от новой, законно избранной власти.
пока же фактически безвластие, особенно ярко наблюдаемое в Донецке.
the_fencer
May. 4th, 2014 11:58 am (UTC)
кроме того. я до сих пор не вполне понимаю структуру этой войны. если в Югославии это были
межнациональные войны на этнической и религиозной почве, то здесь почва намного менее плодородна
для всей этой дряни.
грубо говоря: кто с кем и за что должен воевать? да, в Одессе спланировали столкновение, спланировали
жертвы. но дальше-то что? где те два бурлящих лагеря (диванных воинов я с негодованием отметаю)
которые всерьёз пойдут друг с другом воевать?
да, многие не особо далёкие граждане в Донецке до усрачки боятся правосеков, но они их как
не видели в реале, так могут и не увидеть.
я вижу провокации и готов поверить в то что они продолжатся, но по-прежнему не считаю что полноценная
война возможна.
Lorents Berya
May. 4th, 2014 12:22 pm (UTC)
\\кроме того. я до сих пор не вполне понимаю структуру этой войны. если в Югославии это
были межнациональные войны на этнической и религиозной почве, то здесь почва намного менее
плодородна для всей этой дряни. \\
Религия и этничность это факторы усугубляющие раскол и добавляющие жестокости на войне. Если
нет их могут быть проблемы на региональной и политической платформе. Но с меньшей глубиной раскола
и количеством жертв. Но не значит что их не будет.
Если уж вспоминать Югославию, то как то забывается что разница между мусульманами, хорватами
и сербами там не была радикальной. Мусульмане, те же сербы но с другой религией, хорватов ужасно
плющит что в глазах филологов их язык даже не является диалектом, он по сути тот же что у сербов.
Сербо-хорватский, т.е. по сути главное отличие религия. А вот что было диаметрально разным
это разные взгляды на жизнь, на будущее, разное отношение к прошлому страны. То что формировало
менталитет тех и других, и на основе этого уже вытекало восприятие как чужаков, неприятие "несвоих"
во власти, на чем делали гешефты националисты всех мастей и сторон. Примерьте это на Украину.
\\да, многие не особо далёкие граждане в Донецке до усрачки боятся правосеков, но они их
как не видели в реале, так могут и не увидеть. \\
Уже не правосеков. Уже тех сограждан которые радуются "копченой сотне". И вообще то кое-что
доехало до Донецкой области. Стреляют ведь и убивают.
yoserian
May. 4th, 2014 01:57 pm (UTC)
добровольцы не поедут штурмовать города Донбасса, это нереалистично
Они будут только защищать свои города
Lorents Berya
May. 4th, 2014 02:25 pm (UTC)
Может и так. А может пока не нашлось волшебное военное сочетание добровольцы+вождизакоторымиидут+средства.
Хунта хороша тем что за ней не идут даже те кто хочет наводить порядок на востоке.
yoserian
May. 4th, 2014 12:46 pm (UTC)
В Югославии война шла 50/50 в городах и в горах-лесах. В Донбассе село все украиноязычное,
ни гор, ни лесов нет. Значит, война будет идти исключительно в городах. К сожалению, в Киеве нет
политиков, которые могли бы поставить вопрос о референдуме об отделении. Не говоря уже о том,
что для этого нужно прекращение боевых действий, то есть нужна и воля владельцев РФ, которых война
скорее всего устраивает (и которые ее устраивают). В условиях военных действий произойдет крах
экономики, вырастет безработица, и это приведет к дальнейшей эскалации.
До зимы ЖКХ и другая городская инфраструктура может оказаться в значительной степени разрушенной,
из-за чего сотни тысяч людей станут беженцами
beslukson
May. 5th, 2014 01:05 am (UTC)
А что тут непонятного? 100%-но этнический конфликт. Воевать будут галичане с новороссами. Малороссы
примут сторону победителя.
У Новороссия есть этнический союзник. У галичан такового нет.
Так что окончательный итог войны в общем предопределен. Вопрос только в том, какой кровью его
придётся оплатить.
Всё имхо, разумеется.
Lorents Berya
May. 5th, 2014 01:50 pm (UTC)
Ну еще большой вопрос насколько и кто далеко пойдет. В частности если Донбасс отстоит себя,
пойдет ли он Киев.
loboff
May. 6th, 2014 10:47 am (UTC)
Югославия та же самая пресловутая была светской страной. В течение считанных лет дошло
до религиозного фанатизма. Общественные настроения вещь очень быстро (и очень массово) меняющаяся.
Того противостояния, что есть - "бандеровцы" vs "сепаратисты" - и уже более чем с головой.
Да и в ГВ крайне редко когда участвует более 5% населения страны. По остальным долбит в экономическом
смысле в первую очередь - разрухой.
Но повторюсь - я искренне завидую Вашему оптимизму и в душе отчаянно надеюсь, что окажетесь
правы Вы, а не я.
>Собственно, даже предварительный анализ событий показывает, что бойня и была организована именно
что властью.
Всё ещё хуже. МВФ обусловил выделение Украине кредита восстановлением контроля
над Юго-Востоком. Если называть вещи своими именами, это прямой приказ начать гражданскую войну.
Причём у киевской власти легитимности ничуть не больше, чем у Донецкой республики, т.е. сама идея
проведения военной операции до выборов абсурдна. А верные Киеву войска демонстрируют хроническую
небоеспособность. Если Запад навязал Киеву заведомо неосуществимый сценарий, значит, ни о каком
восстановлении контроля и речи не идёт, речь идёт о ликвидации украинского государства.
Если бы киевское правительство обладало не то что политическим мышлением, а хотя бы элементарным
инстинктом самосохранения, оно скорее ввело бы хоть карточную систему распределения продуктов,
хоть русский язык в качестве единственного государственного - словом, оно оно пошло бы на что
угодно, лишь бы не брать деньги на таких условиях, на каких их дают, и избежать войны.
Но эти люди не способны сложить два и два. Им просто пообещали 17 млрд долларов (естестевенно,
не дали, а только пообещали), и этого оказалось достаточно, чтобы они начали ликвидацию Украины
как таковой.
Знаете, все секреты криптоколониального управления изложены в песенке из фильма "Буратино".
"На жадину не нужен нож - ему покажещь медный грош, на дурака не нужен нож - ему с три короба
наврёшь, на хвастуна не нужен нож - ему немного подпоёшь... И делай с ними, что хошь". Похоже,
в данном случае задача была не лёгкой, a сверхлёгкой - Алиса и Базилио повстречали жадинy, дуракa
и хвастунa в одном флаконе.
Всё это настолько очевидно, что мне даже не хочется писать об этом в своём журнале. Но я прочёл
все комментарии к Вашей предыдущей записи и обнаружил, что люди всерьёз спорят, кто в кого первым
шмальнул из-за угла и сколько среди пострадавших людей с какими ленточками.
Спасибо за ссылку на Галковского. Меня вот эта фраза заинтересовала:
------------
Но это же объясняет и поразительное легкомыслие западенцев. Они думают, что на Донбассе и в России
живут поляки. Которые, если отбить первую лихую атаку, рассыпаются в разные стороны. А для русских
первое поражение это только предлог для последующего разговора. Львовяне думают, что 50 трупов
в Одессе обсуждается семьями погибших так:
- Да, проучили нас. А надо было оно – лезть? Сидели бы тихо по домам. В общем, правильно
же сожгли.
И также люди будут толковать в Славянске и Краматорске.
Это большая ошибка, разговоры идут и будут идти в тональности совсем другой. Уголь спичкой
не зажечь, но если его зажечь, гореть он будет жарко. Пока из-за несоответствия национальных темпераментов
разгорается с трудом и даже сейчас есть некоторый шанс мирно разбежаться. Ну, относительно мирно.
------------
Это действительно фича менталитета галичан или выдумки Галковского?
Написал новый обзор. Смешной. Но в связи с трауром в Одессе ближайшие два дня выкладывать его не
буду.
Те кто визжат "никогда мы не будем братьями", могут засунуть свои языки в свои задницы - русские
и украинцы были и всегда будут братьями. А вот они "не братья мне, гниды".
Одесситы. Не мне со своего дивана учить вас, что и как делать. Однако, если вы будете продолжать
отсиживаться по кухонькам, будьте готовы к тому, что к вам могут прийти весёлые румяные молодые люди
с красно-чёрными флагами, запереть и сжечь вас на вашей же кухоньке вместе с вашими детьми, громко
при этом смеясь. Просто так, забавы ради, как накануне - сорок человек. Потому что это обыкновенный
фашизм, у фашистов так принято - убивать ради развлечения.
Не думаю, что была команда из Киева - сжечь людей в здании. Да, это случилось по вине властей, при
их преступном попустительстве. И "гвардию" из отморозков сформировало тоже это "правительство". На
мой взгляд, кто-то из "онижедетей" просто похулиганил, кидая бутылки с зажигательной смесью в здание.
И потом, когда здание объяло пламя, удивлённо щерился: "Хуяссе, мы отожгли!"
Поэтому никаких российских войск пока не ждите - сами, парни. Путин не станет делать опрометчивых
шагов. Слишком уж пристально следят за ним западные заказчики майдана, выжидая ошибки.
Подавляющее большинство россиян - за вас. Мы не хотим "оттяпать под шумок" часть Украины, мы за то,
чтобы люди Юго-Востока Украины жили в свободной стране, не опасаясь за свою жизнь. В составе России
или нет - лично мне без разницы.
Pro-Russian groups in Donetsk have been reacting angrily to the deaths in Odessa.
More than 40 people died there on Friday, most of them in a fire at the Trade Unions House, where
separatist protesters had barricaded themselves following running battles with pro-Kiev activists.
Я собрал свидетельства участников (потерпевших, но выживших) бойни в Одессе.
Столкновение началось с того, что мы собрались на Проспекте Мира, и кто-то доложил руководству,
что неподалеку находится штаб майданутых, откуда направляют людей на блокпосты. Мы уже было собрались
туда идти, но кто-то обстрелял нас из пистолета. Тогда обошлось без пострадавших, мужика тут же "приняли".
Затем "тяжелые" бойцы ополчения двинулись ко двору, где якобы находился штаб. Подъезд был заблокирован
4-мя правосеками с милицейскими щитами, а перед ними поставили машину на весь подъезд.
За щитами замелькали АК-47. Подоспел "Беркут", но, само собой, потусил там и ушел. Мы разбили
одну машину, в которой оказалось масло, бензин и бейсбольная бита в багажнике и укроповский флагом
на лобовом стекле.
В двух метрах от этой машины, соответственно почти под штабо стояла машина… ОБСЕ. Прямо под штабом.
Дальше нас повели по улицам, загадочно петляя и старательно уводя колонну от пытающихся заблокировать
нас ментов. В итоге мы соревновались кто дольше сможет бежать – мы со щитами, или менты в брониках.
Мы победили.
Мы забежали на Греческую площадь со стороны моря. Обошли ее, подровняли строй. Перед нами уже
маячили милицейские кордоны и майдановцы. ВВ, которые пытались нас обогнать, отстали.
Дальше просто последовала сцена из фильма "Храброе Сердце". Две толпы со щитами с громким кровожадным
криком ломанулись друг на друга. Дойдя до переднего кордона милиции, в нас полетели камни и взрывпакеты,
а так же дымовые шашки ручного приготовления с весьма ядовитым газом.
Наши остановились, и тут же подлетели ВВ и начали нас оттеснять. У них это не вышло, и началась переброска
камнями, взрывпакетами и прочей дребеденью, которую нашли на улице. Причем камни мы подбирали те,
которые летели в нас. Майдановцы их заготовили заранее, о чем есть свидетельства очевидцев.
Я оказался на передовой, прямо под магазином "Галактика". Укрылся за машиной, прикрылся щитом,
начал кидать в них камни, которые падали рядом. Меня поразил тот факт, что в отличие от нас, майдановцы
построили настоящую "черепаху", так много у них было щитов. Ростовые щиты, которые вплоть до 6-го
ряда укрывали их от камней и осколков.
Взломать такую махину было почти нереально, но мы их остановили. Дальше я переместился под стену,
где укрылся за деревом. Камни летели градом. Щит приходилось все время держать над головой. Из-за
дымовых шашек уже не было видно ничего, даже солнца.
Едкий дым мешал дышать. Тут кто-то отодрал стенд с афишами от Русского театра, и мы соорудили
из него большой щит, дополнив нашими сверху.
Милиция старательно пыталась нас оттащить, убрать, утаскивала щит, но после пары попаданий камнями
укрылась вместе с нами за щитом. С той стороны раздались выстрелы травматов и флоберов. Парень слева
от меня тоже достал флобер и разрядил в сторону противника весь барабан.
Менты тут же отобрали оружие. Дальше помню смутно, постоянные игры с милицией в
"тяни-толкай" с этим стендом. Прямо на моих глазах огромный булыжник попал в лодыжку милиционеру.
К слову, в первой волне у милиции не было ни шлемов, ни щитов, одни дубинки и наручники, и камень
видимо сильно его травмировал.
Я подозвал товарища, и вместе с еще одним парнем стали, прикрывая мента щитами оттаскивать в наш
перевязочный медпункт. Потом я вернулся на передовую, снова переброска камнями, но не такая интенсивная.
Дальше кто-то окрикнул "не кидайте, вы в ментов попадете". И правда, дым начал рассеиваться, и мы
увидели что наши камни падают внепосредственно близости от дальнего заслона.
С нашей стороны броски камнями сразу прекратились. Мы быстро перегруппировались и попытались подойти
ближе, на что перед нами снова построили живую стену из ментов совершенно без защиты. Кто-то дал
команду "прикройте парней".
Все всё поняли, буквально обняли милиционеров и закрыли их затылки и головы своими щитами. Рядовые
бойцы все время пытались нам что-то рассказать о том что майдановцы – "они же дети", на что кто-то
заметил что "они же вырастут". Дальше нас вежливо попросили отойти. Почему-то никто не возражал.
Мы начали строить заслон из всякого мусора. Как только мы закончили баррикаду – атака прекратилась.
Но это было только начало. Через 10 минут (видимо столько им понадобилось чтоб подтянуть резерв и
перебросить с фронта на фланг подкрепление) началась сильная атака справа, со стороны Дерибасовской.
Снова дым, взрывы, непонятные хлопки. Унесли еще одного мента. На этот раз он уже в шлеме, но
это не сильно помогло – шлем разбили вместе с головой. Я попросил соседа взять щит и сменить меня,
а сам ушел в запас отдыхать.
Там с ребятами увидели пожарную машину, которая подъехала со стороны проспекта Мира. Мы направили
туда делегацию. Возглавил ее лично командир. Вежливо попросили у пожарных помощи, чтоб смыть гадов
гидрантом. Нам категорически отказали.
Тут же кто-то крикнул, что идут и с это стороны. Машина пошла на разворот, а мы к нашим ребятам,
построили ещё одну баррикаду и там майдауны пришли. Но они особо не рыпались, увидев готовую стену.
Дальше я снова хотел пойти отдохнуть, но не получилось. Милиция продавила со стороны Дерибасовской
до самой улицы. Открылся переулок. Параллельно с этим начали сливать бензин с машин майдановцев,
т.к. в нашу сторону уже летели и коктейли Молотова.
Я прошел по переулку и увидел "Жигуль", прошитый пулевыми отверстиями – в нашем направлении велся
огонь из нарезного огнестрельного оружия.
Дальше майдауны начали оттеснять милицию, а мы вернулись на исходную. Я перебазировался на стройку,
так как там появились лазутчики противника. Их обкидали камнями. В это время в милицию полетели первые
коктейли со стороны майдана, причем в таком диком количестве, что подожгли многие деревья. Точностью
придурки не отличались, но пару упало довольно близко.
Мы ответили своими коктейлями. Дальше я прикрывал тыловую зону, так как основной бой пошел уже
на самой Греческой площади возле Афины. Там поставили двойной ряд ВВ уже со щитами. Мы долго перекидывались
камнями, и я снова устал и пошел отдыхать. Но тут началось нечто невообразимое.
Один за другим начали уносить людей – кого с травмой или переломом, кого с попаданиями Флобера, но
примерно половину тех, кого увезла скорая – с огнестрельными ранениями.
Пару человек убило наповал – сквозное в сердце.
Один из убитых был в реконструкторском доспехе, видимо из толкинистов. Пуля прошила его как масло
– это был или автомат Калашникова, или снайпер.
Потом понесли нашего командира со сквозным ранением обеих ног. Появились убитые и раненые и среди
ВВшников. Судя по характеру ранений в ноги – стреляли с 3-4 этажа здания. Видимо все-таки снайпер.
Отсекали командиров. Командир милиции Фучеджи – получил серьёзное ранение. Майдауны подкатили
вышеупомянутую пожарную машину, которую просто угнали и стали давить ей ВВ, чтоб прорваться к нам.
Мы стали закидывать их камнями изо всех сил.
Потом кто-то из них неудачно швырнул коктейль Молотова. Один из наших, прикрываясь щитом, подошел
почти к их рядам, взял бутылку с оставшейся смесью и швырнул в машину.
Видимо смесь разлилась по кабине, потому как следующий неудачный бросок майданутых запалил пожарную
машину. Как они умудрились попасть молотовым в кабину машины, которая стояла к ним кормой я не понял,
но видел как он туда залетел.
Дальше снова раненые, я был уже возле медпункта. На моих глазах латают парня с проникающим огнестрельным
ранением в живот, тот даже не пикнул.
Как потом рассказывали медики, ни один из бойцов, как бы тяжело не было ранение не издал ни звука
– только скрипели зубами, и иногда сжимали руки держащих их товарищей. Иногда, если рана по мнению
бойца позволяла, они умоляли не отправлять из в скорую, даже с переломами.
Толпа майдаунов все прибывала, а наши ряды редели. Стало понятно, что нас сейчас зажмут. Командира
уже увезли, поэтому управлять было не кому.
А дальше все как-то само собой произошло. Майданутые начали выжимать ментовский кордон. Я увидел,
что они прорвали и стройку и поспешил туда, на угол "Антошки" (это такой магазин).
Там 5 ребят усердно давали отпор майдановцам, грамотно отступая. Силы были явно не равны – нас
вышло на тот фланг порядка двух десятков против пятидесяти ублюдков, которые швыряли в нас камнями.
Мне дважды попали камнем в плечо.
Меня одернул кто-то из ВВшников и сказал что надо уводить людей, они сомкнут строй за нами. Я
оглянулся и понял, что выводить то почти некого – все уже отступали сами.
Пробежался по толпе, прокричал что пора уходить по переулку в сторону проспекта Мира. Так вышло,
что я показался в самом хвосте отступающих.
Дальше почти ничего толком не помню. Только отдельные фрагменты.
Мы с громким криком побежали прорывать блокаду. Там было совсем немного майдановцев, примерно
столько же сколько нас осталось – человек восемь. Я почему-то решил, что мы идем в контратаку и ломанулся
вперед всех, весело осыпая ударами направо и налево.
"Сложил" 4-5 человек. Дальше смотрю – из дыма появляются еще. Я подумал, что атака провалилась
и ломанулся назад. А оттуда еще бегут. Меня зажали, повисли на мне, повалили. Дальше около пятнадцати
майдаунов избивали меня дрынами. Но они драться не умеют, берут только численностью, поэтому все
обошлось.
С меня сорвали шлем, начали расстегивтаь куртку, но тут подоспели ВВшники. Майданутые с громкими
вопплями "Сдадим его, пусть нам заплатят 10 000 долларов за сепаратиста, передали меня войскам ВВ".
Дальше меня отконвоировали выше по переулку, откуда мне удалось сбежать.
Лживые украинские политики и СМИ говорят вам, что это были "российские диверсанты"? А вот хрен
вам! Это были одесситы, причём простые и открытые. Лучшие из одесситов.
Будут ещё свидетельства (как минимум один из моих источников ещё в больнице). Это была бойня
со стороны нацистских штурмовиков-карателей (ещё и "наёмников-патриотов", за бабки).
На днях попался мне на глаза очень интересный взгляд на события на Украине. Суть
его такова: вот мы тут в конспирологию играем, с уважением говорим о Западе, Большой
Игре и Великой шахматной доске, а на самом деле всё просто - западники – "анижедети!"
Впрочем, читайте сами…
Самое трудное, мне кажется – это поверить в то, что они всё это серьезно. Почти про каждую новость
из Хунтостана приходится переспрашивать – не, правда что ли? Как будто власть путем майдана захватил
некий коллективный Лев Щаранский, и троллит оттуда во все тяжкие. Все время ждешь, что после
очередной новости выйдет Пельш с этой, у которой тема раскрыта и фамилия как у Бабаджаняна имя, и
оба нас поздравят: "это была программа "Розыгрыш" на Первом!". Но потоки абсурда не кончаются, а,
наоборот, принимают всемирный масштаб. Причем чем бредовее новость, тем больше вероятность, что
она есть самая голая сермяга.
Когда Россию просили не вмешиваться в дела Украины именно те, кто там раздавал печеньки и внес
5 миллиардов в продюсирование шоу, казалось – обычный их двойной стандарт. Но потом пошли заседания
укрокабмина во главе с чужим дядей и под чужим флагом, а от России потребовали расформировать и разоружить
войска на Украине, которые она не вводила – и ощущение нарастающего бреда стало устойчивым.
И так на каждом шагу.
Без публичных и исчерпывающих ответов не только об одесской резне, но и майданных расстрелах (как
мы помним, именно "батькивщинца" Пашинского заметили и сняли на видео в компании снайперской винтовки)
никаких выборов в Украине не будет. Их просто не должно быть, что бы там ни говорила Европа, пугающая
окончательным развалом страны, которого сама же и добивалась. Страны уже нет или почти нет, одно название
на карте мира. Мы ничего не теряем.
Плохо и опасно жить во время катаклизмов, но еще хуже и опаснее жить в Украине во время президентских
выборов. Одесская резня – их официальное начало.
Близкие пострадавших и погибших плачут, демонстрируют телесные и психологические шрамы журналистам.
Их сторонники остервенело рвут тельняшки в социальных сетях, доказывая, что одесситов убивали радикалы
из бандеровских схронов Западной Украины и обандерложенного Киева. Грозят виртуальной местью. Сами
попавшие в осаду одесситы рассказывают, что вышедших из здания до начала пожара ждало только зверское
избиение в виде "прохождения через строй" и унижения с попытками ставить на колени.
В лагере проукраинских боевиков, действовавших у Дома профсоюзов, защищаются. Говорят, что активисты
не убивали, а наоборот, спасали тех, кто был в доме. Заботливо, к примеру, подносили строительные
леса. Можно было просто не жечь здание. А еще, не размахивать факелами и не маршировать триумфально
толпами по ночному траурному городу, в котором всего несколько дней назад намеренно убили и замучили,
по разным сведениям, от 60 до 300 человек.
Обе стороны ослепли от ненависти, а вслед за ними ослепли и обе Украины. Но что в это время делать
остальным, изо всех сил противящимся общественному безумию? Поддаться массовому психозу, хрипеть,
ненавидеть, исходить слюной, проклинать и распинать? Примириться с мыслью, что в одесском избиении
одних оказалось больше, и они уничтожили и сожгли других, хотя могло произойти и наоборот? Равнодушно
поразиться в очередной раз готовности, с которой толпы позволяют собой управлять?
Люди, где ваш стяжательский инстинкт? Вас уже много раз использовали в качестве скота, но дивидендов
все нет и нет. Вы лишь стога сена, которые должны вспыхнуть в нужный момент. Как 2 мая в Одессе.
Политики вкратце выразили соболезнования и – снова к делу. На 25 мая назначены президентские и
местные выборы, в которых почти никто не заинтересован, кроме Европы. Запад торопится быстрее легализировать
блох, приехавших во власть на спине собаки. Шоколадный Заяц отмалчивается. Царем и так назначат.
Не вляпаться бы. И без того достаточно видео с поездками на грейдере во время штурма Банковой и сомнительных
кулуарных междусобойчиков с взаимными обвинениями в пролитии крови.
Остальным эти выборы не нужны. Чем больше в стране хаоса, тем лучше. Украинские фюреры, хотя и
рвутся к выборам, как Гитлер к Москве, понимают – победу уже присудили. А это обидно, черт возьми.
Вот и мутят воду.
Сторонники киевской власти говорят, что она, власть, не заинтересована в нагнетании ожесточенности,
особенно в более чем "настороженных" регионах. Тогда почему назначенный Аваковым ровно за два месяца
до резни начальник областной одесской милиции Петр Луцюк допустил проведение в стоящем на ушах городе
футбольного матча и приезд толп ультрас? Проведение митингов? Схватку двух колонн, одна из которых
(пророссийски настроенные одесситы), вооружившись, провоцировала другую (проукраинских радикалов)
при очевидной "моральной" и даже огневой поддержке людей, похожих на милиционеров, что видно на видео?
Напрашивается вроде бы вывод, что проукраинское милицейское руководство города было, на самом
деле, пророссийским. Об этом может косвенно свидетельствовать и жалоба (незадолго до резни) Луцюка
на то, что Киев сосредоточил на 12 блокпостах околиц города около 500 боевиков из "самообороны".
"Мое личное мнение - в связи с тем, что в столице собралось большое количество людей, которые
остались там без присмотра, было принято решение направить эти общественные формирования в Одессу.
Мы в этом не нуждаемся. Они приехали и создают нестабильную ситуацию… они больше создают нестабильность
в регионе, чем помогают. Только одесситы могут навести порядок, нам никто не нужен".
Но тогда совершенно непонятно бездействие милиции у Дома профсоюзов, в котором "засели колорадосы".
Милиционеры, по словам очевидцев, сопровождали националистов-радикалов и ультрас по дороге к
Дому профсоюзов, но в ходе движения "испарились". Потом явились, но примерно через час после
вызова. Решительных мер не предпринимали. Почему городская милиция позволила сжечь Дом профсоюзов,
стрелять по зданию, убивать прятавшихся в нем людей, в том числе гражданских активистов, женщин и
просто прохожих? Почему толпу убийц у Дома профсоюзов не оттеснили?
Тем более странно, что назначенный Аваковым главный одесский милиционер не озаботился отменой
матча, шествий радикалов и митингов, если власть действительно не была заинтересована в осложнениях.
Одесская резня была спланирована заранее, а городская милиция полностью контролировалась Киевом?
Стрелки и офицеры МВД в толпе могли как поддерживать пророссийских боевиков (по одной версии),
так и помогать в стравливании тех и других радикалов (по другой). Во всяком случае, у многих милиционеров
на рукавах были точно такие красные повязки для опознания "своих", как у пророссийских активистов.
На видео прячется за спинами стреляющих людей (возможно, переодетых милиционеров) заместитель начальника
областной милиции Дмитрий Фучеджи. После резни он продолжает числиться на сайте МВД одним из замов.
После того, как правосеков и ультрас спровоцировали и обстреляли, разъяренная толпа направилась к
Дому профсоюзов. Самих радикальных националистов могли подогревать и направлять прибывшие из Киева
правосеки.
Российский Первый канал сообщил, что в Одессе эти двое суток находился глава СНБО и националист
Андрей Парубий, координировавший действия двух сотен праворадикалов, прибывших в город "по случаю".
Ну и 500 предусмотрительно завезенных в Одессу майданных самообороновцев никуда не делись. Есть и
другие вопросы. Почему пожарные не тушили Дом профсоюзов? Приехали и стояли. Говорят, без воды. Кто
пустил отравляющий газ? Сколько всего человек погибло в здании? Зачем все эти выдуманные "паспорта
российских диверсантов", неестественно живой интерес к документам еще неостывших мертвых? И прочие
стрелки на Москву?
Приближающиеся президентские выборы не нужны аутсайдерам до тех пор, пока существует главный фаворит
и "победитель". Женщина-Разочарование, которая, кажется, вышла на свободу с единственной целью –
утопиться в грязи, сама признала это. Причем, у Украины, по ее словам, выбора нет – ужасный конец
или ужас без конца: "Я не хочу больше нести ответственность за провал революции. Но если страна
выберет другого президента, а, собственно, у меня сегодня есть один конкурент, я думаю, что нам придется
зайти на третий круг революции. Потому что я там не вижу шанса для каких-либо изменений. Я просто
знаю всех этих людей".
Уже сейчас у нее в руках люди, исполняющие роль президента, премьер-министра, главы МВД и многие
другие. Теперь ее интересует только фактическое президентство.
А поскольку единственная тема предвыборной кампании Тимошенко – всесторонний радикализм, драконография
и "мочилово кацапов", ей остается только развинчивать украинский общественный и государственный механизм,
чтобы Шоколадный Заяц куда-нибудь сгинул в мутной воде. Ведь как только он получит мантию, державу
и скипетр, на Тимошенко можно ставить окончательный осиновый крест.
Примерно так же считает бывший одесский губернатор Владимир Немировский, назначенный Турчиновым
на эту должность еще в начале марта и снятый через два месяца. Он обвинил "Батькивщину" в причастности
к одесской резне и даже назвал ее куратора, народного депутата Украины от фракции "Батькивщина" и
главу штаба Тимошенко Александра Дубового. Кстати, Дубового называют еще и организатором рейдерских
захватов в Одессе. По словам Немировского, события 2 мая в городе были направлены на срыв президентских
выборов.
Обвинение более чем серьезное, приближающее к простой и такой очевидной истине. Без публичных
и исчерпывающих ответов не только об одесской резне, но и майданных расстрелах (как мы помним, именно
"батькивщинца" Пашинского заметили и сняли на видео в компании снайперской винтовки) никаких выборов
в Украине не будет. Их просто не должно быть, что бы там ни говорила Европа, пугающая окончательным
развалом страны, которого сама же и добивалась. Страны уже нет или почти нет, одно название на карте
мира. Мы ничего не теряем.
Apparently, on "Shuster Live" yesterday the Kiev studio audience was applauding as they watched
anti-"government" people being burnt alive. "That's how to deal with Colorado beetles" was a favourite
comment. Colorado beetles is what they call those who carry the black and orange striped Ribbon
of the Order of St,George.
I can get Shuster Live on my provider. Here are some comments from the chat room:
Мария Шестакова
В Киеве все хорошо, во Львове все отлично! Что бендеровцам хорошо, то русскому – смерть.
[Maria Shestakova: In Kiev all is fine, in Lviv everything is splendid! What is good for a
Bendera supporter is death for a Russian.]
(A play on the Russian: "Что русскому хорошо, то немцу смерть" – "What is good for a Russian
is death for a German", i.e. "One man's food is another man's poison".)
Airat Galimov
А что бендеровцам хорошо? Серьёзно только, т.к. в России не знают реально что у Вас происходит.
[But what is good for Banderites? Seriously, because Russians don't actually know what's going
on with you people.]
(They both spell Bandera and Banderites wrongly in Russian!)
Елена Гранкина
Airat Galimov, Уважаем, мы тут на Украине не знаем, что хорошо бендеровцам, Бендеры – это город
в Молдове. А сторонников Степана Бандеры мы сами не видим. А нам, украинцам, хорошо, когда великодержавные
российские шовинисты не лезут к нам своими грязными руками и не указывают нам, как в своем доме
генеральную уборку делать.
[Elena Granika
Airat Galimov, with respect - we here in the Ukraine don't know what's good for the Banderites
. Bendery is a town in Moldova. However, supporters of Stepan Bandera we have never seen. And
we Ukrainians are just fine when Russian great-world-power chauvinists don't get their dirty hands
upon us and try to tell us how to put our own house in order.]
If I were the Russian government, I would let these moronic Ukrainian nationalists stew in
their own juices of imbecility. The USA and EU, however, expects Russia to contribute to their
financial well being.
Nothing doing! Clear off! Go beg at someone else's door!
yalensis says:
May 3, 2014 at 4:34
That "Colorado beetles" meme I believe was started in Lithuania. I saw a piece yesterday (sorry,
I didn't save the link, but I think I saw it on REGNUM), where an official Lithuanian government
person made a joke about "nests of Colorado beetles" being burned out.
Fern says:
May 3, 2014 at 5:41
The level of degeneracy on display in these responses is shocking – pure psychopathy. Russia's
most powerful weapon is economic – it should be used to crush the Kiev junta ASAP.
patient observer says:
May 3, 2014 at 7:48
The west seems to like to maintain and groom reservoirs of hate whether in the Middle East, Ukraine,
Croatia, Latin America or within the US in the form of 1%ers. The Western empire activates them
as required to fight anyone who threatens their dominance. This strategy is natural as the Western
leadership is an insular society of self-perpetuating functional sociopaths. They are not particularly
smart on average, just masters of deception and feigned "human behavior" to mislead, confuse or
baffle us from what I can see.
The Russians on other hand do not relish hatred, genuinely want
to avoid war and seem to be largely free of the self-perpetuating ruling class of nut-jobs. This
is not to say that they do not have their own nut-jobs, it's just that their nut-jobs come and
go.
With Russia moving away from ideology and toward a reality-based world view, they are becoming
aware of the true nature of those who hate them and how best to deal with their insanity.
yalensis says:
May 3, 2014 at 4:30
This is for Karl, who fears that the Kremlin will abandon East Ukrainians to their sad and bloody
fate:
Here is the actual quote, and the actual attitude of the official Kremlin to the crimes committed
by the Kiev junta:
PARTIAL TRANSLATION
"They are up to the elbows in blood." That was the Kremlin's official reaction to
the mass disorders in Odessa…
Dmitry Peskov [Putin's press secretary] declared that the Kiev government is responsible
for these deaths. He is convinced that it is not possible to convince the residents of the
South-East of the country to disarm themselves, given that their lives are in direct physical
danger from the side of the radicals.
(…)
In Peskov's words, that crime that occurred in Odessa lies fully on the head of the Kiev authorities.
Their hands are up to the elbows in blood. However, their partners in crime are also those
[Western governments] who qualify the Kiev junta as a legitimate government.
In his words, neither Russia, nor any country is now capable of influencing the residents of
South-East Ukraine, who feel a direct threat to their lives.
(…) etc.
END OF TRANSLATION
Also note from other sources that Putin made a declaration this morning. He expressed his condolences
directly to the families of those who lost their lives in Odessa.
Putin noted that it is customary for a head of state to also express condolences to the head of
the government in question, but that he could not do that on this occasion, since there was no
legitimate government in Kiev.
yalensis: I don't know how anybody could read these declarations, which are not nuanced at
all, and come to the conclusion that the Russian government is going to abandon the people of
South-East Ukraine, to an unhappy and blood fate.
Especially since the Odessa events are now being compared to Khatyn and Auschwitz, in official
Russia media.
Note: That's KHATYN, not Katyn.
Katyn was the Polish thing. KHATYN is the one where an entire village in Belorussia was massacred
by the German 118th Battalion Schutzmannschaft, in 1943.
... ... ...
karl1haushofer says:
May 3, 2014 at 7:45
Pro-Russians in Odessa also have themselves to blame. Anti-Maidan protests drew over 10,000 people
a few weeks ago. Where were all those people yesterday when they were needed? Why did the Right
Sector thugs from western Ukraine were able to win the locals? Were they too lazy or too scared
to fight? Or were they just not organized enough?
And what happens now? Will the people in Odessa start to organize better or will they just try
to pretend the massacre never happened?
karl1haushofer says:
May 3, 2014 at 7:46
Local Odessa people need leadership and will to fight. Right Sector thugs are crazy but they can
lead and they can fight.
Southerncross says:
May 3, 2014 at 7:53
Meaning that to save themselves they must embrace Pravy death squad tactics. So be it.
karl1haushofer says:
May 3, 2014 at 7:58
Exactly, that is what I'm saying. They have to be prepared to kill or they themselves will be
massacred.
The most important thing is to find people who are able to lead them and arm them.
marknesop says:
May 3, 2014 at 12:59
I'd like to see them get Yarosh, maybe even Tiahnybok.
patient observer says:
May 3, 2014 at 8:36
Like most bullies, they only "fight" when they think that they are safe. They are fundamentally
cowards so lets not give them credit when credit is not due. If the reports are true, we saw how
they abandoned the wounded helicopter pilot which is typical of a thug or bully when confronted
with personal risk. I am sure that there are the truly deranged among their ranks who are dangerous
just as a rabid dog is dangerous.
But, can they fight as a group when the enemy can hit back? I don't think so. Russia knows
this so I doubt if they are concerned about the Right Sector "winning". Their bigger concern is
defusing NATO brinksmanship and keeping Germany from being led down another disastrous path by
the Western "friends".
Moscow Exile says:
May 3, 2014 at 9:11
The Guardian correspondent in Odessa reported: "Nobody will ever know who was 'responsible' for
trade union building fire."
See: Howard Amos Twitter.
That's all now!
Nothing more to see!
Move along there now!
Why the quotation marks around "responsible"? Is he suggesting that labelling any person or
persons as being responsible is too tendentious a proposition?
marknesop says:
May 3, 2014 at 1:02
The subtext is "nobody will ever know, if they depend on us to tell them".
Moscow Exile says:
May 3, 2014 at 7:34
Браво, Одеса. Перлина українського Духу. Батьківщина великих націоналістів Івана та Юрія Лип.
Нехай горять чорти у пеклі. Найкращі повстанці це футбольні фани. Браво.
Bravo, Odessa. Pearl
of the Ukrainian Spirit. Birthplace of great nationalists Ivan and Yuri Lipa. Let the devils burn
in hell. The foremost of insurgents are football fans. Bravo.
Farion
Southerncross says:
May 3, 2014 at 7:50
Bring the war to Lvov. Make the rubble bounce.
cartman says:
May 3, 2014 at 9:04
I was just about to post the latest from Ms. Carrion.
Moscow Exile says:
May 3, 2014 at 9:26
From this to this.
The Guardian correspondent in Odessa reported: "Nobody will ever know who
was 'responsible' for trade union building fire."
kirill says:
May 3, 2014 at 11:47
Except those that watched the livestream videos. It was quite clear that the regime thugs were
hurling molotovs into the Trade Union building windows. The main entrance doors were torched as
well. These are large and would have filled the building with serious smoke levels.
How fast
the fire spread says a lot about how it was started. It is clear that this fire was spreading
fast from multiple sources.
cartman says:
May 3, 2014 at 12:26
Those girls have a bright future working in some Budapest brothel.
ThatJ says:
May 3, 2014 at 1:28
I remember seeing a picture of an Ukrainian prostitute in Israel. She was lured by golden promises
but as often happens, the young and poor woman became trapped in a life of sex slavery. She had
a nazi tattoo on her arm. It was a mixed feeling of irony and sadness.
Moscow Exile says:
May 3, 2014 at 10:05
Vomit-worthy Grauniad editorial:
Ukraine: Kiev's eastern question
marknesop says:
May 3, 2014 at 1:18
Yeah, that's pretty bad. I note you did not see any such editorials describing "Washington reacting
with overwrought displays of anger to Assad's feeble efforts to assert his authority in the north",
and you just knew that the parade in Red Square was going to be announced as a return to Soviet
Days Of Glory And Warm Memories Of Stalin. The Grauniad is so predictable.
They're going to
be terribly disappointed if any eventual assault is by infantry, or air, or any means but armour,
because they are so obviously eager to use that "Russian tanks roll across the Ukrainian border"
that they have used it quite a few times already, in an anticipatory capacity.
Jen says:
May 3, 2014 at 3:09
Wouldn't surprise me if Tintin Harding had written that editorial. It has the same stale stink
as the writing that is actually attributed to him in The Giardiasis.
cartman says:
May 3, 2014 at 12:25
The official Party line:
Russian terrorists set Odesa trade union building on fire after throwing molotov cocktails
and shooting from roof leading 38 own deaths-
Taras Kuzio (@TarasKuzio) May 03, 2014
marknesop says:
May 3, 2014 at 1:26
Yes, well, that's to be expected – Taras Kuzio's shit is probably blue and yellow. Sometimes orange.
If those were the only colours in a box, he could shit crayons. Remember, it's only propaganda
when the enemy uses it. The west must not win this one, because I cannot bear to think of turds
like Kuzio elevated to the role of official biographers of the Ukrainian Oligarch Government.
"The Chocolate King And I", by Taras Kuzio – can't you just see it?
yalensis says:
May 3, 2014 at 12:36
In Donetsk, supporters of "Donetsk People's Republic" today stormed and occupied SBU headquarters,
shouting slogans of "Russia! Russia!"
There is plenty of arms and ammunition in Ukraine, even in the east. The armouries and military
bases have ample stocks of small arms, unless the regime thought of that and emptied them before
the trouble started. But I doubt it; that's where the Right Sector crowd got theirs – from looted
armouries in Lviv. Even Air Force bases have some assault rifles and handguns for perimeter defense.
karl1haushofer says:
May 3, 2014 at 1:45
I have followed one pro-Russian poster in Ukraine who claims otherwise. He says that the Donetsk
army is missing armor and ammo to resist the junta in a longer war. I hope he is wrong, especially
Russia is not going to help.
yalensis says:
May 3, 2014 at 12:40
Meanwhile, Lavrov is hinting that some kind of deal might have been made when those OSCE spies
were released in Slav'ansk. The deal was for Kiev junta to back off instead of continuing to attack
Slav'ansk using Right Sektor neo-nazi storm troopers.
If there WAS a deal, looks like one of the co-signors might have been Lavrov's German counterpart
Frank-Walter Steinmeier.
yalensis says:
May 3, 2014 at 12:42
P.S. – I don't know if there WAS a deal; or if so, the Kiev junta could be relied upon to keep
its word (probably not). But it does seem like the junta did back off somewhat, after needlessly
killing and wounding up to a dozen people in Kramatorsk and Slav'ansk.
karl1haushofer says:
May 3, 2014 at 12:48
"The deal was for Kiev junta to back off instead of continuing to attack Slav'ansk using Right
Sektor neo-nazi storm troopers."
And Russia again believed lies? LOL.
RIght now the junta is attacking both Kramatorsk and Slaviansk.
I really hope that Russia is wise enough not to make any more "deals" with the West or the
junta. Russia will always be betrayed.
Moscow Exile says:
May 3, 2014 at 12:48
Тварь Тимошенко сказала спасибо фашистам Одессы, которые сожгли людей.
The Timoshenko creature
thanks Odessa fascists who burnt people alive.
"I want to say a big thank you to all those who yesterday became defenders of Odessa and the Ukraine.
We now have to draw some very important conclusions from all of theses circumstances. Firstly:
all special operations that are now being planned will now be designated for attacking mass gatherings
of people…."
karl1haushofer says:
May 3, 2014 at 12:52
Well, she wanted to nuke the Russians living in Ukraine. She got her wish in Odessa even if those
Russians were not nuked but torched.
marknesop says:
May 3, 2014 at 1:43
Special operations are being planned to attack mass gatherings of people?? You mean like demonstrations
and other expressions of peaceful dissent? Hey, Kerry – you listening to this?
karl1haushofer says:
May 3, 2014 at 1:48
"Hey, Kerry – you listening to this?"
I bet he is, and applauding Timoshenko's words.
karl1haushofer says:
May 3, 2014 at 1:09
Previously the junta has failed because it has used Ukrainian soldiers in these "counter terrorist
operations".
But things will change. The Right Sector thugs have gotten military training and
now junta is starting to use them in their operations. Right Sector thugs will have no trouble
shooting at civilians and obeying the orders from their masters in Kiev.
This will be a turning point in this war. The Kiev has an upper hand and the seps without Russian
help will have no chance to win this one.
yalensis says:
May 3, 2014 at 1:05
A commenter on DNI posted some names and addresses of those he says helped to start the Odessa
fire by tossing Molotov cocktails. All these people are involved in the Euro-Maidan movement.
He says these people quickly removed their pages from "V Kontakte" (=Russian Facebook), but their
names have been recorded:
Разливавшие коктейли Молотова по бутылкам в Одессе уже поудаляли свои
страницы в Контакте. Но их имена уже известны.
Это
Кристина Йижак, Дарья Мариен(Адрес-Одесса пер. Французский № 23 кв.6),
Алла Колесник, Некто Катерина Олеговна К сведению одесситов: это самка
координатора евромайдана Виталия Устименко в Одессе (см. пост ниже),
виновного в смерти десятков одесситов
Виталий Смирнов
12:49
РЕПОСТ !!! Домашние адреса убийц одесситов 2 мая 2014
vk. com / nazist 1488
БЕЛЫЙ ДМИТРИЙ ГРИГОРЬЕВИЧ 276625 тел., 1983г. 19 декабря рождения, адрес: ОДЕСА ТРАНСПОРТНА д.
7 кв.31
vk. com / id8043237
БИРБИРЕНКО ВЛАДИСЛАВ ЮРЬЕВИЧ 1979 г. р. 10 января, адрес: ОДЕСА ФОНТАНСЬКА д.8 кв.37
vk. com / avmiroshnichenko
МИРОШНИЧЕНКО АЛЕКСЕЙ АЛЕКСАНДРОВИЧ 664503 телефон 6 декабря 1984 г. р.ОДЕСА ФІЛАТОВА дом 23 кв.
73
vk. com / uminochka
ПРАСОЛОВА АНАСТАСИЯ АЛЕКСАНДРОВНА 442839 телефон, 21 августа 1985 г. р. адрес: ОДЕСА АКАДЕМІКА
КОРОЛЬОВА д. 18 кв.2
vk. com/ fizli
ФУРСА ФИЛИПП АНАТОЛЬЕВИЧ 18 июля 1983 г. р. ОДЕСА БАЗАРНА д.10 кв.5
vk. com/ id4497526
АЛЕКСЕНКО АЛЕКСАНДР ВАСИЛЬЕВИЧ дата рождения: 3 августа 1980 г., ОДЕССА ВОДОПРОВІДНА д.5 кв.3
Moscow Exile says:
May 3, 2014 at 1:33
Yeah, I saw that. The rats started quickly removing their profiles. I got one though.
ThatJ says:
May 3, 2014 at 1:10
Good news from Odessa today.
THOUSANDS of pro-Russian Odessites took to the streets, lamenting
the union building massacre and demanding more autonomy from Kiev:
The columns of people moving appear to have no end. So the people are not bowing down to intimidation
from imported Galician and Kievan shabbos goyim ("useful cattle"), the so-called nationalists.
They are "useful cattle" because they unknowingly aid the enemy. During the period of their usefulness,
the enemy will speak in a language the nationalists feel comfortable and identify with, showing
themselves as powerful like-minded allies, happy to help with money, media and what not. As soon
as the shabbos goyim's expediency is over, the nationalist discourse will slowly change to a liberast
one, and yesterday's allies will be today's enemy (nationalists tend to look favourably to Russia,
Western liberasts on the other hand… so the effect on Russophia from switching from nationalism
to liberasty will be zero). As long as the nationalists are useful, they will be supported by
the Zionist Empire. But they are not the "real deal".
karl1haushofer says:
May 3, 2014 at 1:20
It is good news that they at least care and are not all passive.
But they will have to do more than just protest. They will have to organize and form self-militias.
They have to follow the Donetsk example.
Then again, the current passiveness of Russia is very discouraging. If Russia were actively helping
Donetsk it would also encourage Odessa to be more proactive. But Russia is not doing that, it
is not doing anything.
This is a crucial point in this war because Kiev junta is starting to use Right Sector thugs in
military duties in their "CTO:s". This means that the orders of Kiev will actually be obeyed and
lots of more people will die. Donetsk does not have enough armor and ammo to win a war against
Ukrainian army consisting of Right Sector thugs.
Very disappointed of Putin right now.
karl1haushofer says:
May 3, 2014 at 1:23
By the way, whatever happened to those "Crimean battalions" (over 1,000 soldiers) that were supposed
to cross the border and attack Right Sector today? I suppose nothing ever came out of it. Maybe
Putin ordered them to retreat?
The West seems to have something they can threaten Russia with
to remain this passive. I see no other logical explanation of Russia's lack of action.
marknesop says:
May 3, 2014 at 1:54
You said it yourself; you are a natural pessimist.
karl1haushofer says:
May 3, 2014 at 2:00
I am, but I also try to be a realist. Russian action in Crimea was very swift and fast. Russia
did not let Ukraine to have any ground in Crimea.
Russia seems to have chosen a different path
in Southeastern Ukraine. Many East Ukrainian cities are under an attack right now. Many people
including civilians have died.
Russia's explanation in Crimea was that it wanted to protect ethnic Russians there from Ukrainian
aggression. In retrospect Russia was right. Without Russian intervention Crimea would probably
be under an army attack right now.
But Russia's inaction in Eastern Ukraine tells me that Russia does not consider it as important
as Crimea. Russia would have already acted if it was going to act. Therefore Russia will let East
Ukraine fight its own war without direct or indirect help.
marknesop says:
May 3, 2014 at 5:59
I don't think that because Russia is not there already means that it will not be. Obviously, Russia
does not want to fight the Ukrainian army, because that will be the excuse NATO is waiting for
to get in there and get the "boots on the ground" so beloved of western reporters. Too, you may
have noticed there is nothing the United States likes better than a foreign war where it can send
its war machines and men off to wreak carnage in someone else's country. NATO hopes that Russia
will intervene, and it might say there will be no war for Ukraine, but that's what it says now
– I don't think it would take much convincing. Especially since the USA keeps pushing for armed
conflict and already has 600 soldiers there. That's not much, but if any of them were committed
and were injured or killed, it would be a clarion call to escalate. At this point, casualties
are light except for the disgraceful business in Odessa. The more the Ukrainian kangaroo government
uses its military against civilians and the more it uses force to crush self-determination – which
the west assures us is an essential human right – the harder it becomes for the west to defend
its chosen government. It is hard to imagine, but the situation must be uncontrollable before
Russia steps in or it will be instantly blamed for all the deaths. Right now nobody else but Russia
is positioned to stop it, and it is ridiculous to imagine the USA could take control of the situation
with its 600 soldiers – but the world must see and know that it is the Ukrainian government, backed
by the west, which must be stopped. They have to practically beg Russia to intervene, and right
now we are on the side of the equation wherein the west would scream that Russia is invading and
might not stop with the east. It is going to have to get to where the west will say, okay, this
is fucked up, these guys are not who we thought they were, someone please do something. They have
made their bed and must now lie in it, but things have still not reached the point that the west
is ready to admit it is Kiev which is the villain. It is sad that some people will probably die
before we get to that point, but you should blame that on the west rather than on Russia, and
if the timing is wrong things will flash into a general war which will see a whole lot more people
die than are likely to die now.
yalensis says:
May 3, 2014 at 1:30
And this is completely spontaneous: It has only been one day since the fire! And yet they were
able to organize such a march. Very impressive.
No, Russian people do not bow down to intimidation.
This is what I keep trying to tell Karl, but he is such a pessimist. Russians, like any other
people, might be passive for years or decades, but that only lasts while things are relatively
tolerable and not too dire.
To explain Russian "passivity" I have a favorite joke:
A baby, let's call him "Johnny" for the Western audience, was born apparently mute. His parents
took him to every doctor, who could not find anything wrong with him, but nor could they fix him,
so eventually the parents reconciled themselves to Johnny's muteness.
On Johnny's eighth birthday, his mother fixed him his favorite dinner: mashed potatoes.
In the middle of the dinner, Johnny suddenly pushed his plate aside and announced:
"Mom, I appreciate you making this special dinner for my birthday, but I simply can't eat it,
because the potatoes are too lumpy."
His parents leap up in astonishment:
"Johnny! All these years, you have never spoken a word!"
And Johnny replies:
"Well, up until now, the potatoes were not an issue."
ThatJ says:
May 3, 2014 at 1:57
By "nationalists tend to look favourably to Russia" I meant non-Ukrainian, non-Baltic nationalists,
e.g. the British, French, German, Italian, Hungarian etc. The countries that matter the most in
Europe.
yalensis says:
May 3, 2014 at 1:20
And here is a new angle on Odessa fire.
According to this piece, there is a logical reason why
Odessa police did not intervene to stop pro-Maidan militants from burning anti-Maidan people alive.
The reason is, the police knew that the pro-Maidan militants were not really football hooligans
or random people, but actually members of Ukrainian Special Forces called "Vostok" and "Shtorm".
It claims these special army units, which have been formed recently by the Kiev junta, are
being paid their salaries by Igor Kolomoisky and Petr Poroshenko. They consist of former Right
Sektor and other types who are now considered "official", even though they didn't rise through
the ranks.
It says the real Ukrainian police are disaffected with Avakov/Nalivaychenko and only passively
pretend to obey their orders. Due to that, the junta are side-lining the real police and bringing
in their own people, namely these special forces.
Hence, although the Odessa police will get blamed (and many lose their jobs) for their passivity
during the fire, they are not really guilty, as they were sidelined and told to step aside, according
to this report.
Info comes from an anonymous source in Ukrainian Minister of Internal Affairs.
Moscow Exile says:
May 3, 2014 at 1:39
Odessa governor Nemirovsky: what citizens did to capture and neutralise terrorists was lawful
Немировский назвал бойню в Одессе законной
Nemirovsky called the slaughter in Odessa legitimate
According to the Governor of Odessa region Vladimir Nemirovsky, "the actions in Odessa aimed
at the neutralization and detention of armed terrorists are considered legitimate".
He said this on his Facebook page.
kirill says:
May 3, 2014 at 3:51
I hope someone is compiling a list of these maggots, including the bitch molotov cocktail brewer,
so that proper justice can be meted out in the future.
patient observer says:
May 3, 2014 at 2:53
If there is Russian military involvement that turns the Banderites into quivering piles of slime,
what happens on day two? This is not meant to suggest such an intervention is wrong.
Presumably the gas flow through Ukraine would be stopped. Presumably, Germany would frantically
lobby Russia to keep Nordstream online. Russian foreign assets would be confiscated and Russia
would likely retaliate in kind. Russia would no longer accept dollars for anything. The US would
demand that astronauts on the ISS be returned home immediately. The EU enters a deep recession.
Russia has a partial return to a centralized economy to more efficient direct resources especially
to the military. The other BRICS help Russia financially after US demands for subservience are
rejected.
McCain dies from asphyxiation due to forgetting to breath in his excitement, Hilary sweeps
into office, Obama gets another peace prize. Hollywood goes into a frenzy of anti-Russian movies
with commercial tie ins to Spiderman, Shrek, and Captain America. Several false-flag incidents
cement public opinion that Cold War is Good, Peace is Bad.
Russia completes the gas and oil pipe lines to China in record time. The West sinks into a
economic depression masked by increasing usage of drugs (legal and illegal), video games, and
stupefying media broadsides on the public. The crystal ball gets cloudy at this point.
karl1haushofer says:
May 3, 2014 at 3:08
Yeah, I think too that Russia thought the intervention would become too costly for Russia. Kiev
would certainly block any gas flow to Europe and electricity to Crimea. And the sanctions on Russia
would be real this time.
In an emotional level I am extremely disappointed that Russia let America
have a military and geopolitical victory in Russia's backyard, but I realize Russia is not strong
enough to resist the West.
Good Jeff says:
May 3, 2014 at 3:11
Russian positions have been set up a long time ago.
American Junta in Kiev have overreacted,
Putin will be waiting for an official Washington position on Odessa before he responds.
karl1haushofer says:
May 3, 2014 at 3:15
Just don't get your hopes up too much.
marknesop says:
May 3, 2014 at 6:54
It certainly was not the turning point in Odessa, and support for federalism is even stronger
now than it was before the fire. Also, it garnered Kiev quite a lot of bad press – as bad as the
western media will allow it to get – around the world. But the point is that Odessa has not fallen
into Kiev's lap like a ripe plum, and it is going to have to fight for every foot in the other
cities as well, all of it plainly military against civilians, which is terrible optics. And what
then? Will the east submit? I doubt it very much, and they don't have enough army to garrison
the whole place and force compliance. So it's either kill everyone or put them into detention
camps where a relatively small number of soldiers can guard a relatively large number of "insurgents".
I don't think that would fly. And Kiev looks more fascist and autocratic by the day.
yalensis says:
May 4, 2014 at 2:45
Back in the day, Odessa used to be one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world. It was a
city where Russians, Ukrainians, and Jews lived side by side in harmony.
It was the home city of Ostap Bender (not to be confused with Stepan Bandera!).
All of that
harmony is gone now, probably forever. Junta apologists in America and Europe can spin all they
want about "who started it" and whether there was "wrong on both sides", yada yada.
But they can't deny the overall effect, and what they have wrought with their meddling.
ThatJ says:
May 3, 2014 at 2:37
Couldn't Russia be waiting the junta's military operations against the civilians in the east in
order to gather enough evidence (videos/photos - the union building massacre by the junta's shabbos
goyim being just one of the many examples to come), which can be used to justify a "peace-keeping"
intervention in order to stop the junta's massacre of protestors and ethnic violence, backed by
enough proof that the Russian media, Russia-friendly media, anti-NWO media, anti-globalist media,
anti-imperialist media, assorted nationalist/leftist media will make good use of, to the detriment
of an already precarious narrative of the controlled press that attract mostly disagreement from
the readers' comments, be they from the 'right' or 'left'?
Today there are cameras everywhere
(something I am unhappy with), the material that will be used in justifying an intervention will
keep pilling up.
This is a probable scenario. I am confident a Russian intervention will occur sooner than we
think - a few weeks away at best.
karl1haushofer says:
May 3, 2014 at 2:53
"Couldn't Russia be waiting the junta's military operations against the civilians in the east
in order to gather enough evidence (videos/photos - the union building massacre by the junta's
shabbos goyim being just one of the many examples to come), which can be used to justify a "peace-keeping"
intervention in order to stop the junta's massacre of protestors"
It is possible, but I see
this counterproductive.
1. Russia will not get a UN mandate for military intervention no matter how many civilians
the Kiev junta kills because the USA and UK will use their veto. Therefore Russia will have to
act without UN mandate in any case like it did in Crimea and South Ossetia.
2. The number of civilian deaths will also have no effect on the possible and probable sanctions
on Russia if it decides to intervene militarily. Russia will be sanctioned in a similar manner
no matter how many civilians have been killed before Russian intervention. In this point of view
delaying the action makes no sense.
3. By delaying military involvement Russia lets Kiev to gain more ground in Eastern Ukraine
which will make Russia's own intervention harder to implement and will result to more casualties
in all sides. If Russia wanted to intervene it should have been done BEFORE Kiev had made any
gains in East. Now Kiev is pushing forward hard and based on several Twitter tweets Kiev is winning,
at least in Mariupol. If many cities are under Kiev's military control then the Russian intervention
becomes a lot more problematic, if you compare it to Crimea which was grabbed quite easily with
no resistance.
I'm sure Russian leadership understands these three points very well, and my conclusion is
that Russia simply refuses to take an action this time. Crimea was enough for them. Too bad for
those millions on people in Eastern Ukraine who were counting on Russia's help. I bet they feel
betrayed.
Good Jeff says:
May 3, 2014 at 3:58
Sun Tzu: 'the best military strategist is he who wins the war without having to fight, simply
by using cunning, bluff and timely disinformation to confuse the enemy, giving him false hope
at the start of hostilities only to completely disillusion him in the end'
Never give the enemy
the ability to understand you. Putin to a T.
Operation codenamed "Ola" – from the phrase "and mizbah-ol", which translates
Hebrew means "altar of burnt offering. Odessa planning information came from law enforcement
sources. When it seems that the opposite side of some nonhumans and fascists, we should not forget
that the enemy is not monolithic.
Even Hitler had his Stauffenberg. Some people are terrified happened in Odessa and members of
the junta. To reveal his name, we have no right – otherwise the history of Ukraine will have another
shot by two shots to the head "suicide".
Development
Odessa after the loss of the Crimea and the people's revolution in Mariupol remained
the only maritime gateway of Ukraine and acquired the status of the most important city after Kiev.
Appointed head of the junta RSA Vladimir Nemirovsky showed complete political impotence – for two
months, he could neither disperse popular camp on Kulikovo field, nor to control the police, nor
to establish contact with local small but active Ukrainian nationalists.
Preparatory meeting for the false flag terror attacks took place in Odessa 10 days before the
tragedy. Turchinov personally presided. The discussion was attended by Interior Minister Arsen Avakov,
SBU head Valentyn Nalyvaychenko and NSDC Secretary Andrew Paruby. By Advice on operations was drawn
as the head of RSA Dnipropetrovsk region Igor Kolomoisky.
The concept, using in the operation football "Special Ops" belonged to Arsen Avakov.
Ever since the head of Kharkiv regional state administration, it had team support coordinators,
whom he even living in Italy, continued to provide sponsorship. Kolomoysky passed under the leadership
of law enforcement battalion Odessa Dnipro.
He also established a cash prize for each dead "Russian" – $ 5,000. Preparing to perform the operation
were also involved Fascist militia gunmen Korchinskiy. They wore red armbands. Korchinskiy followers
play a key role in organizing provocations they were allegedly as defenders of the tent city on the
Kulikovo field, and then lured members to the House of Trade Unions, where there was a massacre.
Odessa was organized around 15 roadblocks, which strengthened the militants obeying personally
Kolomoiskiy Battalion "Dnepr-1″, as well as representatives of the "right sector" as from Dnepropetrovsk,
and from the western regions of Ukraine. Besides, came to Odessa two hundred "We Are Maidan" militants
obeying Acting presidential administration Sergei PASHINSKY – the same one who was caught with a
sniper rifle in the trunk of his car on February 18.
Pashinsky later claimed that he was not privy to the full operation plans, and sent his people
solely to "protect the citizens of Odessa." Thus, the total number of fighters from other regions
of Ukraine amounted to about 1,400 people – to the question that the House of Trade Unions, allegedly
burned "Odessa people."
From the Odessa police operation led by the head of the regional police personally Lutsyuk Peter
and his deputy Dmitry Fuchedzhi. Lutsyuk was tasked to neutralize the head of RSA Nemirovsky, that
he did not accept the initiative, which could disrupt the operation.
Fuchedzhi militants led directly to the Greek area, where he was allegedly "injured"
to avoid liability for subsequent events. date of the operation was originally scheduled on May 2
– the day of the soccer game that justifies the presence of a large number of "Special Ops" in the
heart of the city, and also minimizes the presence those not involved in the operation.
On May 2 at 7:59 in Odessa train arrived from Kharkov, where fans come "Metalist",
among whom were involved in the operation "Special Ops" personnel. In addition, at the same time
in the city in small groups gunmen entered the battalion "Dnepr-1″ and "right sector."
Many militants "We Are Maidan" also officially arrived from Kiev, but most without
arm bands or other identifying badges, came to town by car. In Odessa police that day was under
strict orders not to stop cars with Kyiv, Dnipropetrovsk and Lviv plates. Afternoon some of the
guerrillas went towards Cathedral Square, where he was appointed the gathering of the "March for
a United Ukraine". Their task was to organize the crowd and lead them to the barricades on the
Greek area.
Group "suicide" St. George ribbons dressed up, wearing balaclavas and marched down Alexander Avenue.
They featured in numerous photo and video recordings as a "pro-Russian activists." In order to distinguish
these from their Odessa activists provocateurs wearing red armbands on the sleeves. Dedicated to
the details of the operation police also wore red armbands.
Did not know these details these activists, alas, succumbed to calls provocateurs, and also went
to "stop the Nazis" – so they were told what was going on. further course of events recorded by numerous
eyewitnesses. Allegedly "pro-Russian" provocateurs with the support of police lined up near the shopping
"Athena" at the intersection of the street and alley of the Greek Vice Admiral Zhukov, provocateurs
from fans, among whom were the representatives of the "right sector" and Korchinskiy, they were attacked
(it confirm even turned positive in relation to the Maidan observers) http://napaki.livejournal.com/100072.html
on both sides were used firearms, both sides were victims.
Some Special Ops personnel were tasked to distract "honest" fans of the soccer
game and send the crowd on Kulikovo Field. "Charge" crowd provocateurs retreated to the mall "Athena"
where were later removed by the police.
Victims were not among them – only wounded. Whereas while there were clashes in the
Greek, a group of criminals "right sector" preparing the implementation of the main part of the
operation, codenamed "Ola" – from the phrase "and mizbah-ol", which translates Hebrew means "altar
of burnt offering." They entered through the back entrance of the House of Trade Unions and strengthened
in the basement and the attic.
This group included only proven fighters with experience in killing people. Whereas until the
crowd came from the Greek area to the Kulikovo field through the center of the city, part of provocateurs
on the cars ahead of the bulk, ran the camp and had a panic: "here comes" right quadrant, "" They
are going to kill! "etc.
Under the leadership of provocateurs, instead of scattered around the city, many activists entered
the House of Trade Unions. Some of them went to the basement – then living there did not work, people
were tortured, killed, slaughtered with machetes. Some of them went up the stairs. Acrid deadly carbon
monoxide on ildovym Yarema structures formed from the use of a mixture of gasoline with napalm.
The 2 May Odessa Massacre and Its Significance on the Ukraine Crisis by
Pietro Shakarian
On Friday, at least 46 people, mostly anti-Kiev activists, were killed in the southern Ukrainian
city of Odessa. At least 39 died after being trapped in the Odessa House of Trade Unions which
was reported to have been lit on fire by far-right football hooligans and activists from the far-right
Kiev-affiliated group Right Sector (Pravyi Sektor). Some were burned alive while others
suffocated to death or jumped out the windows to escape. At least three were reportedly shot
dead. Close to 200 were injured with at least 25 in critical condition.
The massacre was the bloody culmination of clashes between supporters and opponents of the controversial
Turchynov-Yatsenyuk government in Kiev. The supporters were primarily Right Sector and its allies,
including far-right football hooligans known as the Ultras, who are said to have instigated the violence.
"Glory to Ukraine," "Death to enemies," and "Knife the Moskali" they chanted.
The significance of this massacre to the ongoing crisis in Ukraine is threefold:
It represents the worst violence of the Ukraine crisis since the events in February.
It will likely further erode the credibility of the Turchynov-Yatsenyuk government throughout
all regions of Ukraine.
It has demonstrated that Russia, though harshly critical about the actions that took place
in Odessa, has been nonetheless restrained in responding to this tragedy. This is very difficult
for Moscow because of its anger over the overall situation as well as pressure from Russian hardliners
who want Russia to invade Ukraine. Still, the Kremlin will likely continue to show restraint on
the issue (at least for now) as the stakes of a direct intervention in Ukraine are too high. In
the meantime, Kiev appears to be provoking Moscow to respond to events occurring in the Russophone
regions. It is specifically using Right Sector to accomplish this. Now headquartered in
the southeastern town of Dnipropetrovsk, Right Sector activists have launched attacks on cities
and towns in throughout southeastern Ukraine.
The massacre is an especially tragic event for Odessa, a multicultural, cosmopolitan, and theatrical
port city on the Black City. Renown for its humor, Odessa is blessed with a heritage of mixed Russian,
Ukrainian, Jewish, and Mediterranean influences. Its people speak their own colorful dialect of Russian
with smatterings of Ukrainian and Yiddish. Yet, the May massacre will likely go down as yet
another tragedy in Odessan history, a history that also includes several anti-Jewish pogroms, the
Russian Revolution, the Russian Civil War, famine, Stalin's Terror, World War II, and the horrors
of the Holocaust. Yet as in these tragedies, the people of Odessa will likely turn to their quick
wit, irreverence, and celebrated sense of humor to deal with this latest painful episode in their
collective history.
sod prayers - the west and russia need to stop playing these bullshit power games before the
Ukraine descend into civil war.
When the media and out polticians were wetting themselves over the 'pro democracy' protestors
in Kiev many people were raising the alarm about the strong strain of violent ultra-nationalism
amongst those at the forefront and warning that it could lead to a yugolsavia style bloodbath.
We were howled down as kremlin stooges.
But anyone who saw thought the blatant propogandor we were being fed could see that the violent
overthrow of yanukovych by the Ukrainian nationalists was going to cause deep disquiet in the
russian speaking parts of the country - and that putin would be all too eager to stir that particular
pot.
And now we have these horrible events - and a situation that is escalating out of control.
peacefulmilitant -> tomnorton
Appalling - pray for peace !
It is beyond appalling. But I would like to pray for (professional) police instead. Total abrogation
of duty! This should never have been allowed to escalate to the point to which it did.
Scipio1 -> RadioPartizan
I think that Ukraine has already descended into a civil war. We are seeing the beginning of
the end of the Ukrainian state and the evolution of yet another failed/fragmented state. You can
add this one to Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria. Everywhere the US pokes its nose in ends in
chaos. The worse, far worse, is yet to come.
Chenoa -> tomnorton
Appalling is an understatement to say the least.
The EU/NATO/US have funded the nazis and mercenaries that are creating this despicable chaos.
The last thing they wanted for Ukraine was peace.
Despicable.
johnnydoe -> Blackkey
It's a grass root uprising. If you knew anything about the history of Ukriane and also the
most recent political events (from 2004 onwards), you could easily foresee the Eastern and Southern
regions are not going to accept the pro-Western coup in Kiev.
alexgreene88
For those who missed what these thugs did in Kiev:
On March 22, 1943, the entire population of the village was massacred by the 118th Schutzmannschaft
Nazi battalion. The battalion was formed in July 1942 in Kiev and was made up mostly of Ukrainian
nationalists from Western Ukraine and collaborators,
Belarus remembers it...
burnageblue11
Terrible 50 people burned alive. Reports that survivors have been finished off with baseball
bats.
ReachFreedom burnageblue11
Yes, such is the freedom and democracy that Nuland wanted to see.
Maratyunusov
US mentality is If you are Right, then you have rights to kill anyone. Odessa just another
confirmation.
KIEV (Reuters) - More than 40 people were killed in Odessa on Friday, most caught in a building
set on fire after pro-Russian activists and supporters of Ukrainian unity fought running battles
across the southern port city.
In the worst violence in the Black Sea port since President Viktor Yanukovich was ousted in February,
police said 38 people had choked to death on smoke or were killed when jumping out of windows after
the trade union building was set on fire.
The opposing sides in a battle that is being repeated in other parts of Ukraine, especially in
its east, have clashed before in Odessa, but the violence has never before resulted in deaths. Some
residents say they fear some may now seek retribution.
Earlier, the police said at least four men had been killed in fighting after a march by the pro-Kiev
demonstrators was ambushed. Petrol bombs, paving stones and explosive devices were thrown during
the clashes, they said.
Waving the blue and yellow Ukrainian flag, wearing helmets and holding batons, thousands of Ukrainians
took to the streets to march in support of the European path taken by Kiev. Some were supporters
of the local football team, Chornomorets.
In an attack tinged with football rivalry, pro-Russian activists, many wearing the colors of team
Metalist from the eastern Kharkiv region, waded into the crowd.
Police soon lost control. They said the trade union building was later set alight.
Dmytro Spivak, a local parliamentarian, told Ukrainian television that at least six young supporters
of the authorities in Kiev had been killed in the fighting.
"It is abundantly clear that the pro-Russian side was very well armed, well organized and that
this action was planned long ago," he said, adding the police did little to stop the clashes.
"I will say one thing to (Russian President Vladimir) Putin; forget about Odessa."
Ukraine's new pro-Western leaders have accused Moscow of supporting pro-Russian groups to try
to destabilize a country desperately trying to recover from months of upheaval that led to the toppling
of Yanukovich.
The Kremlin denies playing any role in the uprisings in the east and south of Ukraine, saying
Russian-speakers there are simply protecting their rights against possible assault by Kiev's pro-Western
leaders.
(Additional reporting by
Elizabeth Piper, writing by Elizabeth Piper, editing by Mark Heinrich and Matt Robinson) nL6N0NO3R5
UPDATE: Up to 38 reported choked to death in the burned buildings of Odessa.
Wondering why Treasury yields plumb new depths, gold's having its best day in a month, and stocks
can't keep a bid no matter how many times JPY or VIX is slammed? The answer lies in these disturbing
images from Odessa which show Pro-Russian forces under attack by Ukrainian forces, buildings burning,
deaths, and of course - most critically - the kind of anti-Russian actions that Vladimir
Putin said was the red-line for him taking action...
And pro-Russian camp gone up in flames. Thousands milling around. Explosions, unclear from
what pic.twitter.com/HVHSIHvLrR
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