It is now quite clear the Ukraine is just a tool for the USA to fight its geopolitical decline by
trying to put a wedge in relations between EU and Russia. This also wedge apart Germany and Russia,
whose economies are largely complimentary, and box Russia in. In other words this is about retaining
U.S. influence in Europe. Nowhere it was more clear then with
MH17 provocation (and there are very serious
reasons to call this tragedy a geopolitical provocation) and propaganda attack on Russia that followed
it.
Senior U.S. State dept official visiting protestors and distributing cookies was another pretty
telling sign of what was going on. They managed to break up the political compromises that existed
between Galicia nationalists and Russian speaking Ukrainians and Ethnic Russian. The net result is
civil war and another failed state/ this time in Europe.
US "containment 2.0" policy toward Russia had been brewing for a long time. It's an illusion to
believe that there are some specific steps Russia could take in connection with Ukraine to mollify the US.
The organized by the USA (with the help of EU) and financed by NGOs, embassies and some oligarchs February
coup d'état is just a step in a complex game of isolation and institution of "regime change" in
Russia.
Work for nurturing and preparation of far right nationalist forces of Ukraine to take power has started
many years ago and February events on EuroMaidan is in essence a
replay of Orange Revolution on a new level of development of far right forces in Ukraine. That means
that Russian step toward fulfilling the USA demands will result in just moving the goal posts. The
idea is to return Russia to the status of a regular vassal of Washington like it was under Yeltsin
rule. And Ukraine is just one step in such a plan which also involves keeping Germany on a shorrt
leash. There is no way in the long term Germany and France and Russia will not become more and more
economically integrated. The US interference in Ukraine is probably also directed at preserving
vassal status of Germany and France too. This conflict if it had been left to Germany and
Russia would long ago have been solved. The Germans unlike the USA would have put pressure on the
Kiev Junta to negotiate a new Constitution along Federal lines with the Rebels before things got out
of hand.
The real reasons that
US-Russia acrimony has been inexorably building, might be that Russia is at the leading edge
of emerging countries that are challenging
neoliberalism, which is the US-run global financial and political order.
In any case the real US plan is to tighten the screws using combination of sanctions and vicious propaganda
campaign, demonizing Putin and vilifying Russia as the major threat to world peace and stability. In reality Russia is just
a threat to neoliberal world order. Introduction of sanctions essentially means the the USA declared
an economic war with Russia. The war in which the West due to its financial and technological
dominance has huge superiority. The goal ofeconomic sanctionsis thecauseofso much sufferingof the
Russian people, that they remove thegovernment of the countryandsubmitto anyWesterndemands. If happen,
the demands will certainlyinclude theopening of the countryto thepredatoryWestern
speculative capital, capitalthattodayfinds it harderto
penetrate Russia with the same ease as under Comprador regime of Yeltsin.
If we adopt this line of thinking about the whole tragedy of Ukraine, the central
even of July was
MH17 provocation which provided
the USA golden
opportunity to advance those goals. The shooting down of the airliner was botched due to
incompetence of Ukrainian part and now it looks more and more like a false flag operation.
That's why such a vicious propaganda campaign was launched instantly after the event before any
results of investigation come out. Time was running out and it was not clear if the dirt can be
swiped under the carpet and for how long. In any case deafening silence of Western MSM after vicious
propaganda campaign is pretty telling.
After rebels gave black boxes to Malaysia, pressuring
Malaysian authorities to allow decoding of black boxes in London was helpful to hide the tracks.
Naturally the questions about
behaviour of investigators
starting to rise after they essentially refused to disclose their content to the public. Does they contain
something incriminating "friendly" country ? As The Sydney
Morning Herald noted:
The final five minutes recorded on the black boxes of doomed Malaysia
Airlines flight MH17 will be critical to the analysis conducted by air-crash
investigators, experts believe.
After nearly a week missing in action, the black boxes were finally handed
over to international investigators on Tuesday night.
There are two components to the black box; the cockpit flight recorder which
records audio in the pilots' quarters, and the data recorder - which takes in
all technical details of a flight, including altitude, pressurisation and flight
deviations, among thousands of other details.
Typically two-three days are enough for decoding of the blackboxes, if they were not damaged. And
MH17 was such a case. Instead new sanctions were announced. But nothing was revealed for
a month or so, which allowed the continuation of vicious propaganda war and introduction of new
sanctions. The goal of which is to increase the internal discontent among Russia's middle class
to the level when they can became a vanguard of color revolution, and to institute
a regime change via well-polished color revolution mechanism because it is very difficult to cut all
the channel of injection of currency into the country for the destabilization of the regime.
This color revolution scenario was already tried but did not work in Russia
in 2011-2012. That means
that the ultimate goal of Ukrainian events is not only (or even so much) economic absorption of Ukraine into EU (with the civil
war in Russia Ukraine now represents a huge burden for EU taxpayers instead of the opportunity of extending EU market to another 45 million of
people), but the regime change in Russia.
It is also clear that Galician nationalists are determined to subdue (if necessary by brute
force) and colonize Eastern and Southern Ukraine and that can create a conflict similar to
Yugoslavian conflict between Serbs and Croats.
There is also German dimension of this color revolution which turned into civil war (which
somewhat reminds me Spanish Civil War
with Galician nationalists instead of
falangists). As Olivier
Berruyer noted(
Ukraine’s advantage for the new German empire is precisely that it doesn’t exist) "The
rise in power of Western Ukraine shows at what point Central Ukraine, which is the majority, is
atomized, incapable of organizing itself, in a state of pre-statehood." but the whole event
can be viewed through the prism of
Liebestraum struggle
of rising Germany (with its allies in Galicia being the key players in recent events) and
attempt to contain and dismember dramatically weakened after 1991 Russia:
EMMANUEL TODD GERMANY’S FASTHOLDON THE EUROPEAN An interview CONTINENTby Olivier Berruyer
OB: The integration of the Ukrainian population by the German system would represent a
qualitative jump in this dynamic unbalance. Granted, it is a numerous population, but it is poor
and produces little…
ET: Yes, but annexing the geographically contiguous and politically controllable poor, in a
globalized world craving low-cost labor forces, can be an advantage. Our world is now
post-democratic and un-egalitarian; it therefore fosters virtual expansion in zones of very low
salary rates.
And Ukraine’s advantage for the new German empire is precisely that it doesn’t exist. It is
double, even triple. It is a disintegrating system. In reality, Ukraine has never existed as a
correctly functioning national entity. It’s a false state, and it is bankrupt. The fundamental
proof of Ukrainian incapacity of statehood, and this has not been stressed, is the role played
by the leaders of the Western Ukrainians, at the periphery of the country. One sometimes gets
indignant over this, and starts counting their deputies, their ministers, but the Western
Ukrainians, altogether, do not represent much. However, what is striking, is the inaction of the
central Ukrainians, that is, those who speak Ukrainian, who do not like the Russians that much,
who belong originally to the Orthodox religion but who are not tempted by the far-right. The
rise in power of Western Ukraine shows at what point Central Ukraine, which is the majority, is
atomized, incapable of organizing itself, in a state of pre-statehood.
The confrontation playing itself out between the Ukrainian far-right and the pro-Russians in
Eastern Ukraine makes evident the historical inexistence of the country. The Western Ukrainians
want to adhere to Europe. This is perfectly normal as far as they are concerned: why would
extreme-right movements which have a tradition of collaborating with Nazi Germany refuse to join
a Europe under German control?
All this said, this exceptional Ukrainian catch has not yet been bagged by Germany. The
game, or rather the war, is only beginning.
As for the Central Ukrainians, I think that the question has been taken care of. The system will
continue disintegrating: the GDP will contract, the situation will get worse, and I think that
this is the real reason why the Russians are so prudent, are so little inclined to go to war
and, contrarily to what is being asserted, do not want to annex bits and pieces of Ukraine.
Russia is not afraid of Western sanctions. But it does not want to become hated in Central
Ukraine. In its central mass, Ukraine is mistrustful of Russia at the present stage, but one
must recognize to the Russians a great historical capacity to play with space and time. After
two years of being handled by German Europe, what will the people of Kiev think? Maybe they will
want to return to Moscow. A disintegrating system does not adhere, it continues disintegrating.
OB: Let’s return to the global might of the American system, which is so far away from
Ukraine, and therefore has very little capacity to benefit from its integration-disintegration
through the « Western system.»
ET: The American system, according to Zbigniew Brzezinski, is the control by the United States
of the two great industrial regions of Eurasia, Japan and Germany. But this can function only
under the condition of the hypothesis where America itself is clearly superior in terms of
industrial weight (see table on the right )
As early as 1928, the American industrial production represented 45% of the total world
industrial output. After the war, in 1945, America still represented 45%. Now America is down to
17.5 %: the Brzezinski system of a control of Eurasia cannot hold in regard of the present
numbers. As I observed in After the Empire, its economic exchanges with Ukraine are insignificant.
In Eastern Europe, NATO is in fact securing a German space. One should re-actualize, for the
sake of Washington, the French expression “to wage war for the King of Prussia".
OB: In such a context, what future can there be for German-American relations?
ET: If you live in the enchanted world of the presently dominant ideology of the newspaper Le
Monde, of François Hollande, which is also the ideology of naive anti-imperialists, the Western
block, a union of America and Europe, with its ward Japan, must and can contain Russia. In the
hypothesis that presuppose a good strategic understanding and a strong collaboration
between partners, the West could defeat
the Russian economy. Maybe… But then there is China, India, Brazil, the world is big…
But if we move into the world of strategic realism, which sees the reality of the
relationships of power without a reference to real or mythic values, we see that there exist
presently two great developed industrial worlds, America on the one side and this new German
empire on the other. Russia is a secondary question. We must therefore foresee a completely
different future for the twenty years to come than the East-West conflict: the rise in power of
the German system suggests that the United States and Germany are moving in the direction of
conflict. This is an intrinsic logic founded upon relations of force and domination. In my view
it is unrealistic to foresee a peaceful co-existence for the future.
Yet at this stage, we may reintroduce the notion of value. But precisely in order to stress
that, for an anthropologist, in his own way a realist, or for a historian of the long term, the
United States and Germany do not share the same values. Confronted with the economic stress of
the Great Depression, America, the country of liberal democracy, produced Roosevelt, whereas
Germany, a country of an authoritarian and non-egalitarian culture, produced Hitler.
Granted that the belief of Americans in equality is very relative. The United States are the
leading country in the rise of economic inequalities – even when putting aside segregation
towards the Blacks, a problem which is far from having been solved, as can be seen from the
riots in Ferguson. But it is also, at the present stage, a leading country
But it is also, at the present stage, a leading country in its attempt to create a unified
world, with populations of very diverse origins. In this sense, the election of Obama remains
strongly symbolic, despite the evident wear and tear shown by the President during his second
term.
If one takes only into account the corpus of citizens of Germany, we can say that the rise of
inequalities remains very reasonable, much lower to what we can observe in the Anglo-American
world. But if one observes the German system in its European globality, integrating the low
salaries of Eastern Europe and the compressions of salaries in the South, one can identify a
system of a much stronger un-egalitarian domination in a state of gestation. The equality in
this case
is left as a concern for only the dominant, German citizens.
At this stage, I will take up this concept of political science of
the Belgian anthropologist
Pierre van den Berghe : the Herrenvolk democracy, that, is the democracy of the master people.
Now don’t jump to the ceiling! These words are not going to bring down the world – I have
recently expressed myself in these terms in an interview with the German newspaper Die Zeit.
At the beginning, Pierre van den Berghe was applying this concept of an ethnic democracy to
apartheid South Africa, where there existed a corpus of equal citizens which was functioning
perfectly well according to the liberal and democratic rules, but whose liberty and democracy
could only hold because there existed these dominated groups. It was the same for America at the
time of segregation: the internal equality of the white group was assured by its domination over
the Indians, the Blacks… One could in the same way characterize Israel as being a Herrenvolk
democracy. What cohesion and liberty there is in the Israeli democracy is bolstered by the
existence of an enemy mass of Arabs.
If I had to describe present day Europe, if I had to comment the economic map at the
political level, I would say that Europe, or the German Empire, is beginning to take the general
shape of a Herrenvolk democracy with, at its heart, a German democracy reserved for the
dominating people and, around it, a whole hierarchy of populations more or less dominated, whose
votes no longer have any importance. It is easier to understand, in such a model, why, when one
elects a President in France, nothing happens. Because he no longer has any power: particularly
not on the monetary system.
So one finds oneself in a democracy in which the liberties of the press, of opinion, and
others, are perfectly respected; where there is no problem but where, fundamentally, the
stability of the system rests on the subconscious solidarity inside the dominating group. In the
Europe taking shape, one can see the Germans as the Whites in segregation America.
Presently, political inequality is evidently stronger in the German system than in the
American system. The Greeks and others cannot vote in the elections to the Bundestag, whereas
the Blacks and the Latinos can vote in presidential and congressional elections. The European
Parliament is baloney, the American Congress is not.
OB: After such an indictment, do you think that we should be more vigilant to-wards Germany?
ET: It’s true that I am pessimistic. The probability that Germany will turn out right is getting
lower every day. It is quite small already. The authoritarian German culture generates a
systemic mental instability of the leaders when they are in a situation of domination –
something that has not happened since the war. Their frequent historical incapacity – in a
situation of dominance – of imagining a peaceful and reasonable future for everybody re-emerges
today in the form of an export mania.
To this is now added, for these leaders, the interaction with Polish absurdity and Ukrainian
violence. Sadly, the fate of Germany doesn’t appear to me as a total unknown.
In what way will the Germans turn wrong? The median age or the absence of a military apparatus
may put a brake to the process, but one notices every week a radicalization in the German
posture. Contempt for the English, for the Americans, shameless visit of Merkel to Kiev. The
relationship to the French, the voluntary servitude of whom is essential for the control of
Europe, will be revelatory.
But we know already. With the affair of the sales of the Mistral to Russia: the German leaders
are now asking the French to liquidate whatever military industry they have left. The German
culture is un-egalitarian: it makes difficult the acceptance of a world of equals. When they are
feeling that they are the strongest, the Germans will take very badly the refusal of the weaker
to obey, a refusal which they perceive as unnatural, unreasonable.
In France, it would rather be the contrary. Disobedience is a positive value. One lives with it,
it’s part of the French charm because in France, too, there exists a mysterious potential for
order and efficiency.
The relationship of America to discipline and inequality is complex in another way, and would
deserve many pages of analysis. Let’s be brief and jump to the conclusion: a disciplined
inferior-superior rapport of the German type will not pass easily. Anglo-Saxon culture is not
egalitarian but it is truly liberal. Equal, unequal, it’s the same thing in the end. The
reasonable difference made within families between brothers leads to the notion of a reasonable
difference among individuals, among peoples. This is actually the reason for the success of the
American model: the Anglo-American culture is capable of managing reasonably international
differences.
In the end, we cannot but observe that both blocks – the American and the German
– are antagonist by nature. They combine all the elements which generate conflict: rupture in the brute
economic balance, difference in values. The faster Russia will be out of the game, either broken
or marginalized, the faster these differences will come to express themselves.
For me, the real historical question at present, the one nobody is asking, is the following:
will the Americans accept to see this new reality of a Germany which is threatening them, and if
yes, when?
OB: When you are prophesizing a conflict between the American nation and the new German
empire, are you sure of yourself?
ET: Of course not. I am only broadening the prospective field. I am describing one possible
future among other possible futures. Another would be a solidifying of the group
Russia-China-India in a continental block opposing the Western Euro-American block. But this
Eurasian block can only function with the addition of Japan, who alone is capable of
bringing it up to the Western technological level. But what will Japan do? For the time being,
it is more loyal towards the United States than is Germany. But it might get tired of the old
Western conflicts.
The present shock is paralyzing its rapprochement with Russia, which should be
completely logical for it from the energetic and military point of view, an important element in
the new political course engaged by the Japanese Prime Minister Abe. This is another risk for
the United States, deriving from the new aggressive German course.
OB: Several futures are possible, but not an infinity; 4 or 5,maybe…
ET: I have gone back to reading science
fiction in order to deep-cleanse my brain and open my
mind. I much recommend an exercise of the same type to the people who are our leaders and who,
without knowing where they are going, are pressing ahead with such a firm step.
The United States are working hard to identify the perpetrators of the attack against the
plane of the Malaysian Airlines and were very quick to point the finger at pro-Russian rebels.
Atlantico: The United States put a lot of efforts for blaming those who they consider
to be the perpetrators of the attack against the plane of the Malaysian Airlines and were
very quick to point the finger at pro-Russian. What interest do they have to point finger at
Russia?
Jean-Bernard Pinatel: Since the fall of the Berlin Wall in November 1989, policy makers
and American politicians perceived a major threat: that a reconciliation and an alliance
between Europe and Russia would challenge the supremacy of the United States, which is allowing
them with impunity to interfere in the internal affairs of any country, or invade them,
and interpret international law in their private interests as most recently demonstrated the
case of the BNP bank.
To understand this undeniable reality requires that we consider a historical context of those
events.
In 1997, former National Security Adviser of the United States, Zbigniew Brzezinski, published
under the title "The Grand Chessboard" a book adopting the two concepts, coined by Mackinder,
Eurasia and "Heartland." He repeated his account his famous maxim: "who governs the Eastern
Europe dominates the Heartland; who governs the Heartland dominates Eurasia; which governs
the Eurasia dominates the World World. "
He makes the following conclusion: "For America, the chief geopolitical issue is Eurasia."
In another publication (1), he make this though more explicit: "If Ukraine fell, he wrote, it
would greatly reduce the geopolitical options for Russia. Even without the Baltic states and
Poland, Russia, which would retain control of Ukraine could always aspire with confidence to
the direction of a Eurasian empire. But without Ukraine and its 52 million Slav brothers and
sisters, any attempt to Moscow to rebuild the Eurasian empire threatens to lead Russia in lengthy
disputes with non-Slavic national and difference religious groups. ".
Between 2002 and 2004, to implement this strategy, the United States has spent hundreds of
millions of dollars to help the pro-Western Ukrainian opposition to gain power. Millions of
dollars also cooperation came from private institutes such as the Soros Foundation and European
governments. This money does not go directly to political parties. He passed by including foundations
and non-governmental organizations who advised the opposition, allowing it to be equipped with
the technical resources and the latest advertising tools. An American cable from January 5,
2010, published on the WikiLeaks website (ref. 10WARSAW7) shows the involvement of Poland in
color revolutions of former Eastern European countries. The role of NGOs is particularly exposed
(2). The Wikileaks cables demonstrate continuous efforts and the continued commitment of the
United States to extend their sphere of influence in Eastern Europe, and first of all in Ukraine.
... ... ...
How Ukraine can prevent the creation of a Europe-Russia alliance? Why the United States
so actively try to prevent it?
The Americans continued to put pressure on Europe in order to integrate Ukraine and Georgia
into NATO, which would constitute an unacceptable provocation to Russia.
Fortunately, European leaders have not bent to the will of Washington, which in this
case acts solely in its own interests. Similarly, if Putin gave in to pressure from ultra-nationalist
and openly intervened in Ukraine, the United States would achieved their strategic goal and
the Cold War in Europe would be restarted damaging our fundamental interests.
Why Europe acts as vassal of the USA? Does it really interested to follow the American
strategy?
Many European leaders got their education in the United States. They are members of American
"Think-Tanks" or "transatlantic foundations" such as the "American Foundation" which largely
finance their benefits and travel. The Atlanticism is certainly manufactured not only by the
awareness that we share the same democratic values with the American people but also by the
multitude of personal interests of many European leaders whose standard of living depends on
their submission to the will of the USA.
Nevertheless, more and more Europeans are beginning to tell the difference between the American
state which is, in fact, run by lobbies, the most important of which is the military-industrial
lobby and the American nation whose values and economic and cultural dynamism possess an undeniable
attractiveness and remains for young European wonderful school.
Jean-Bernard Pinatel, General, recognized expert on economic and geopolitical matters.
But the chance to further demonize Putin and Russia will be hard for Official Washington
and its corporate-owned press to resist. The New York Times was quick out of the starting blocks
on Friday with a lead editorial blaming the entire Ukraine conflict, including the Malaysian
Airline tragedy, on Putin:
“There is one man who can stop it – President Vladimir Putin of Russia, by telling the Russian-backed
separatists in eastern Ukraine to end their insurgency and by stopping the flow of money and
heavy weapons to those groups.”
Among Putin’s alleged offenses, according to the Times, has been his “failing to support
a cease-fire and avoiding serious, internationally mediated negotiations” – though Putin has
actually been one of principal advocates for both a cease-fire and a negotiated solution.
It has been the U.S.-backed Poroshenko who canceled the previous cease-fire and has refused
to negotiate with the ethnic Russian rebels until they essentially surrender.
But the death of all 298 people onboard the Malaysian Airline flight, going from Amsterdam
to Kuala Lumpur, will surely provide plenty of fuel for the already roaring anti-Russian propaganda
machine. Still, the U.S. press might pause to recall how it’s been manipulated by the U.S. government
in the past, including three decades ago by the Reagan administration twisting the facts of
the KAL-007 tragedy.
In that case, a Soviet fighter jet shot down a Korean Air Line plane on Sept. 1, 1983,
after it strayed hundreds of miles off course and penetrated some of the Soviet Union’s most
sensitive airspace over military facilities in Kamchatka and Sakhalin Island.
Over Sakhalin, KAL-007 was finally intercepted by a Soviet Sukhoi-15 fighter. The Soviet
pilot tried to signal the plane to land, but the KAL pilots did not respond to the repeated
warnings. Amid confusion about the plane’s identity — a U.S. spy plane had been in the vicinity
hours earlier — Soviet ground control ordered the pilot to fire. He did, blasting the plane
out of the sky and killing all 269 people on board.
The Soviets soon realized they had made a horrendous mistake. U.S. intelligence also knew
from sensitive intercepts that the tragedy had resulted from a blunder, not from a willful act
of murder (much as on July 3, 1988, the USS Vincennes fired a missile that brought down an Iranian
civilian airliner in the Persian Gulf, killing 290 people, an act which President Ronald Reagan
explained as an “understandable accident”).
But a Soviet admission of a tragic blunder regarding KAL-007 wasn’t good enough for the
Reagan administration, which saw the incident as a propaganda windfall. At the time, the felt
imperative in Washington was to blacken the Soviet Union in the cause of Cold War propaganda
and to escalate tensions with Moscow.
Falsifying the Case
To make the very blackest case against Moscow, the Reagan administration suppressed the exculpatory
evidence from the U.S. electronic intercepts. The U.S. mantra became “the deliberate downing
of a civilian passenger plane.” Newsweek ran a cover emblazoned with the headline “Murder in
the Sky.”
“The Reagan administration’s spin machine began cranking up,” wrote Alvin A. Snyder, then-director
of the U.S. Information Agency’s television and film division, in his 1995 book, Warriors
of Disinformation.
USIA Director Charles Z. Wick “ordered his top agency aides to form a special task force
to devise ways of playing the story overseas. The objective, quite simply, was to heap as much
abuse on the Soviet Union as possible,” Snyder recalled.
Snyder noted that “the American media swallowed the U.S. government line without reservation.
Said the venerable Ted Koppel on the ABC News ‘Nightline’ program: ‘This has been one of those
occasions when there is very little difference between what is churned out by the U.S. government
propaganda organs and by the commercial broadcasting networks.’”
On Sept. 6, 1983, the Reagan administration went so far as to present a doctored transcript
of the intercepts to the United Nations Security Council (a prelude to a similar false presentation
two decades later by Secretary of State Colin Powell on Iraq’s alleged weapons of mass destruction).
“The tape was supposed to run 50 minutes,” Snyder said about recorded Soviet intercepts.
“But the tape segment we [at USIA] had ran only eight minutes and 32 seconds. … ‘Do I detect
the fine hand of [Richard Nixon's secretary] Rosemary Woods here?’ I asked sarcastically.’”
But Snyder had a job to do: producing the video that his superiors wanted. “The perception
we wanted to convey was that the Soviet Union had cold-bloodedly carried out a barbaric act,”
Snyder wrote.
Only a decade later, when Snyder saw the complete transcripts — including the portions that
the Reagan administration had hidden — would he fully realize how many of the central elements
of the U.S. presentation were false.
The Soviet fighter pilot apparently did believe he was pursuing a U.S. spy plane, according
to the intercepts, and he was having trouble in the dark identifying the plane. At the instructions
of Soviet ground controllers, the pilot had circled the KAL airliner and tilted his wings to
force the aircraft down. The pilot said he fired warning shots, too. “This comment was also
not on the tape we were provided,” Snyder wrote.
It was clear to Snyder that in the pursuit of its Cold War aims, the Reagan administration
had presented false accusations to the United Nations, as well as to the people of the United
States and the world. To these Republicans, the ends of smearing the Soviets had justified the
means of falsifying the historical record.
In his book, Snyder acknowledged his role in the deception and drew an ironic lesson from
the incident. The senior USIA official wrote, “The moral of the story is that all governments,
including our own, lie when it suits their purposes. The key is to lie first.” [For more details
on the KAL-007 deception and the history of U.S. trickery, see Consortiumnews.com’s “A
Dodgy Dossier on Syrian War.”]
Steven Pifer is an apologist of Neoconservatism and trying to defend it he spill the beans
The key idea of this apologetics is simple: "Neoconservatism and color revolutions
make sense and serve the interest of the american people". This is a questionable thesis unless
by "American people" we understood the top 1%, or even the top 0.1%.
I also think Steven Pifer should have more sympathy to confederates, as he positions himself
as right wing hawk in this discussion ;-). After all Donetsk rebels are nothing but a confederates
fighting like their American counterparts for more autonomy from the central government in Kiev.
Presenting them all as pro-Russian forces is wrong (most of them want Donbass to stay in Ukraine,
but with far great level of autonomy then Kiev is ready to offer).
Also as a former United States Ambassador to Ukraine (1998-2000) he should know far better the
danger of Ukrainian Ultranationalists. It was Bush I who told Ukranians (Chicken
Kiev speech)
"Americans will not support those who seek independence in order to replace a far-off
tyranny with a local despotism. They will not aid those who promote a suicidal nationalism based
upon ethnic hatred."
Here the USA with its color revolution (aka EutoMaidan) really put this powerful and destructive
jinni out of the bottle, and in no way they can put him back. And the last but not least -- it is
very humiliating for him to repeat what
Robert Kagan would
say on the subject... After all Robert Kogan is just an overweight neocon -- paid propagandist of
military industrial complex, so to speak. But it looks like
Brookings Foundation still think that "Neoconservatism still matters".
The United States are working hard to identify the perpetrators of the attack against the plane
of the Malaysian Airlines and were very quick to point the finger at pro-Russian rebels.
Atlantico: The United States put a lot of efforts for blaming those who they consider to be
the perpetrators of the attack against the plane of the Malaysian Airlines and were very quick to
point the finger at pro-Russian. What interest do they have to point finger at Russia?
Jean-Bernard Pinatel: Since the fall of the Berlin Wall in November 1989, policy makers
and American politicians perceived a major threat: that a reconciliation and an alliance between
Europe and Russia would challenge the supremacy of the United States, which is allowing them with
impunity to interfere in the internal affairs of any country, or invade them, and interpret
international law in their private interests as most recently demonstrated the case of the BNP bank.
To understand this undeniable reality requires that we consider a historical context of those
events.
In 1997, former National Security Adviser of the United States, Zbigniew Brzezinski, published
under the title "The Grand Chessboard" a book adopting the two concepts, coined by Mackinder, Eurasia
and "Heartland." He repeated his account his famous maxim: "who governs the Eastern Europe dominates
the Heartland; who governs the Heartland dominates Eurasia; which governs the Eurasia dominates
the World World. "
He makes the following conclusion: "For America, the chief geopolitical issue is Eurasia."
In another publication (1), he make this though more explicit: "If Ukraine fell, he wrote, it would
greatly reduce the geopolitical options for Russia. Even without the Baltic states and Poland, Russia,
which would retain control of Ukraine could always aspire with confidence to the direction of a
Eurasian empire. But without Ukraine and its 52 million Slav brothers and sisters, any attempt to
Moscow to rebuild the Eurasian empire threatens to lead Russia in lengthy disputes with non-Slavic
national and difference religious groups. ".
Between 2002 and 2004, to implement this strategy, the United States has spent hundreds of millions
of dollars to help the pro-Western Ukrainian opposition to gain power. Millions of dollars also
cooperation came from private institutes such as the Soros Foundation and European governments.
This money does not go directly to political parties. He passed by including foundations and non-governmental
organizations who advised the opposition, allowing it to be equipped with the technical resources
and the latest advertising tools. An American cable from January 5, 2010, published on the WikiLeaks
website (ref. 10WARSAW7) shows the involvement of Poland in color revolutions of former Eastern
European countries. The role of NGOs is particularly exposed (2). The Wikileaks cables demonstrate
continuous efforts and the continued commitment of the United States to extend their sphere of influence
in Eastern Europe, and first of all in Ukraine.
Ukraine is undergoing a civil war. Yet nobody in the West denounced the ardor with which the
Ukrainian government is trying to subdue the separatists. What is the real interest of Americans
to ignore this reality and support the Ukrainian government? What did they gain?
The Ukrainian state is a construction of Stalin and exists independently only since 1991, after
the breakup of the Soviet bloc. He previously existed between 1917 and 1921 between the fall of
Tsarism in 1917 and the victory of the Bolsheviks that dismembered this new state into 4 parts.
Ex-Russian part of Ukraine, with Kiev as its capital, the birthplace of civilization and Russian
culture was integrated with the USSR while the former Austrian part, with Lviv's as the local capital
was absorbed by the Poland.
Little Ukraine "Transcarpathia" voted for unification with Czechoslovakia and in Bukovina Ukrainian
minority resigned himself to unification with Romania.
But Ukraine does not mean a nation. Ukrainians have no common history. Quite the contrary. During
the second world war, when in the summer of 1941, Ukraine was invaded by the armies of the Reich,
the Germans were received as liberators by the Western part of Ukraine. In contrast in the Easten
Ukraine, they met strong resistance from the local population which continued until 1944
In retaliation, the Germans track down supporters and burned hundreds of villages. In April 1943,
an SS division Galicia is made from Ukrainian volunteers whose descendants formed the storm troops
of the EuroMaidan. This SS division was also used by the Germans in Slovakia to suppress the Slovak
national movement. But Ukrainian and American pro-Western did everything at the end of the war,
to throw a veil over the atrocities committed by this division and retain only the anti-Soviet struggle.
However, historians estimate more than 220,000 Ukrainians enlisted alongside the German forces during
the Second World War to fight the Soviet regime.
This history helps explain why civil war is possible and why the part of Ukrainian forces consisting
of troops from the West can use tanks and planes against separatists from the East.
Ukrainian President with the complicity of silence of the majority of politicians and Western
media launched a war against part of the population of the country with the same cruelty that is
attributed to Syrian dictator. In addition, the Ukrainian armed forces are advised by American
special forces and mercenaries.
The USA and Obama was provoke Russia into invasion of Ukraine in order to revive the cold war
between the West and the East. Putin has understood the trap "Nobel Peace Winner" Obama created
for him. First he advised the Ukrainian separatists not to hold the referendum; then he did not
recognize its result and showed a moderation which surprised all independent observers while tanks
and planes indiscriminately attack a Russian-speaking population.
How Ukraine can prevent the creation of a Europe-Russia alliance? Why the United States so
actively try to prevent it?
The Americans continued to put pressure on Europe in order to integrate Ukraine and Georgia into
NATO, which would constitute an unacceptable provocation to Russia.
Fortunately, European leaders have not bent to the will of Washington, which in this case acts
solely in its own interests. Similarly, if Putin gave in to pressure from ultra-nationalist and
openly intervened in Ukraine, the United States would achieved their strategic goal and the Cold
War in Europe would be restarted damaging our fundamental interests.
Why Europe acts as vassal of the USA? Does it really interested to follow the American
strategy?
Many European leaders got their education in the United States. They are members of American
"Think-Tanks" or "transatlantic foundations" such as the "American Foundation" which largely finance
their benefits and travel. The Atlanticism is certainly manufactured not only by the awareness that
we share the same democratic values with the American people but also by the multitude of personal
interests of many European leaders whose standard of living depends on their submission to the will
of the USA.
Nevertheless, more and more Europeans are beginning to tell the difference between the American
state which is, in fact, run by lobbies, the most important of which is the military-industrial
lobby and the American nation whose values and economic and cultural dynamism possess an undeniable
attractiveness and remains for young European wonderful school.
Angela Merkel and the Germans are at the forefront of this awareness because they have not accepted
the permanent industrial espionage which the NSA use against this country. Furthermore, the revelation
of the laptop plays Angela Merkel strongly shocked the country. Spiegel of November 3, 2013 claiming
that now even political asylum for Edward Snowden in on the agenda. In the article "Asil Für
Snowden" Europe's biggest daily published extensive excerpts of his revelations.
On 10 July 2014, the German government announced the expulsion of the head of the American secret
services in Germany, as part of a spy case against German officials who provided intelligence information
to Washington, a move unprecedented among allies within NATO. "The representative of the United
States Intelligence Agency at the Embassy of the United States of America was asked to leave Germany,"
said the government spokesman Steffen Seibert said in a statement. The expulsion comes "in response
to a lack of cooperation that was long in efforts to clarify" the activity of American intelligence
agents in Germany, told a German MEP, Clemens Binninger, President of the Parliamentary Oversight
Committee on intelligence, which met in Berlin on Thursday.
In France, the former Prime Minister Michel Rocard, a sociologist Edgar Morin, former ministers
Luc Ferry and Jack Lang and former European MP Daniel Cohn-Bendit, launched a petition calling on
President Francois Hollande, his Prime Minister Manuel Valse and Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius
"promptly grant Edward Snowden political asylum.
Unfortunately for France and Europe, Francois Hollande, as part of the French intelligentsia,
still admires Barack Obama, and Laurent Fabius for a long time received funds from U.S. foundations.
Neither of them realize that their policies pose a threat to the strategic interests of France and
Europe.
Jean-Bernard Pinatel, General, recognized expert on economic and geopolitical matters.
Neither Hollande nor Fabius did not care if their actions pose a threat to the strategic
interests of France and Europe. Thos guys just spit on France and Europe. The key idea of neoliberal
globalization is the elite can finally able to send their people and their problems to hell
and concentrate on their own wellbeing. The idea to make elite independent from low lifes and
rednecks of their own nations as now there is always the USA where they can escape the wrath
of their own people.
The Verkhovna Rada Deputy from the Party of regions Mykola Levchenko specifically for Pravda.Ru
commented resignation of Arseniy 'Yatsenuyk.
"After the Maidan coup d'état the group of extremists which came to power people were totally unprepared
for it. They are members of opposition by nature. They are good only for destruction and unable
to anything constructive. After then got power, they remained members of opposition, they fight
in Parliament, criticized everybody and everything, no matter what you did or not did.
They are
organically unable to compromise, unable to negotiate which is necessary to do so, for anybody in
power. This all led to such full-scale combat operations on South East. Today, they still cannot
learn to work, to be responsible for the entire country.
In addition, they proved to be 100% pure Jacobins. After the revolution with their coming to
power they rely on terror and started repression and persecution of dissidents. That was during
the French bourgeois revolution. Unfortunately, all this happened again here in aggravated form.
As for the resignation of Yatsenyuk I can state that clearly he was not ready for the position
he got. Shoes proved to be too big for him. "
Vicky Nuland will be SO disappointed: who is she going to parachute in now to take the reins
of U.S.-diplomacy-once-removed? Make a note of that, Geoffrey – when we pick the Prime Minister
of a country we're trying to bring under our thumb, always pick a backup, too.
I pick Parubiy. Ukraine is the only place crazy enough to elevate a psychopath like him to Prime
Minister.
Yatseniuk quits as he berates parliament for failing to pass law to increase army financing
and regulate country's energy situation
Arseny Yatseniuk's impassioned speech underlined the frustration of many in Ukraine that change
is taking too long. Photograph: Andrew Kravchenko/Government press service/EPA.
Ukraine's prime minister has resigned
after the governing coalition collapsed, in a sign that five months after the Maidan protests led
to a change of government, the country's political system is still beset by discord.
The government is struggling to defeat an insurgency by pro-Russian separatists in the east of
the country, where a Malaysia Airlines jet was downed last Thursday.
Arseniy Yatsenyuk, one of the leaders of the Maidan protests, was seen by many Ukrainians as
a safe pair of hands, with his mild manner and intellectual demeanour. But he grew angry during
Ukraine's parliamentary session as it failed to pass legislation to increase army financing and
regulate the country's energy situation.
"History will not forgive us," he told parliament. "Our government now has no answer to the questions
– how are we to pay wages, how are we tomorrow morning going to send fuel for armoured vehicles,
how will we pay those families who have lost soldiers, to look after the army?"
The president, Petro Poroshenko, welcomed the move, which will lead to new elections, saying:
"Society wants a full reset of state authorities."
Although Ukrainians elected Poroshenko in May, there have yet to be new parliamentary elections
since the former president, Viktor Yanukovych, fled. Yatsenyuk is likely to stay on in a caretaker
role before a new poll.
Rumours are that Poroshenko wants to end the insurgency in the east before 24 August – Ukrainian
independence day. The army has made significant gains in driving the rebels out of a number
of towns, including the former stronghold of Slavyansk, but the separatists still control Donetsk,
a city of 1 million, and much of the region around it.
The Red Cross has made a confidential legal assessment that Ukraine is officially in a war, Western
diplomats and officials say, opening the door to possible war crimes prosecutions, including over
the downing of Malaysia Airlines MH-17.
"Clearly it's an international conflict and therefore this is most probably a war crime," one Western
diplomat in Geneva told Reuters.
The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) is the guardian of the Geneva Conventions setting
down the rules of war, and as such is considered a reference in the United Nations deciding when
violence has evolved into an armed conflict.
"Within the U.N. system, it's the ICRC that makes that determination. They are the gate keepers
of international humanitarian law," said one U.N. source.
The ICRC has not made any public statement - seeking not to offend either Ukraine or Russia by calling
it a civil war or a case of foreign aggression - but it has done so privately and informed the parties
to the conflict, sources told Reuters.
"The qualification has been shared bilaterally and confidentially," ICRC spokeswoman Anastasia Isyuk
told Reuters on Friday. "We do not discuss it publicly."
The designation as a war - either international or civil - changes the game legally, because it
turns both sides into combatants with equal liability for war crimes, which have no statute of limitations
and cannot be absolved by an amnesty.
Suspects may also be arrested abroad, since some countries apply "universal jurisdiction" to war
crimes.
Without the designation, Ukrainian government forces would be responsible for protecting civilians
and infrastructure under international human rights law, while separatists would only be liable
under Ukraine's criminal laws.
"It changes their accountability on the international stage," said Andrew Clapham, director of the
Geneva Academy of International Humanitarian Law and Human Rights. "This makes individuals more
likely to be prosecuted for war crimes."
Dutch prosecutors have opened an investigation into the crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH-17
on suspicion of murder, war crimes and intentionally downing an airliner, a spokesman said on Monday.
[ID:nL6N0PW2VI]
Based on the Law on International Crimes, the Netherlands can prosecute any individual who committed
a war crime against a Dutch citizen. The 298 people who were killed when the plane was downed over
Ukraine included 193 Dutch citizens.
Russian President Vladimir Putin said in May that the country had collapsed into civil war, while
Ukraine regards the conflict as a war involving Russian aggression.
(Reporting by Tom Miles; editing by Stephanie Nebehay/Jeremy Gaunt)
Summary:
"There is now any CTO over there, it is full-scale war with tanks, artillery and aviation. And our
forces are depleting.
Senior officers and generals literally don't give a heck about this war. Their HQ near Amrosievka
is shamelessly fancy. White and clean tablecloths, nice meals, great tents, adjutants, even sauna.
But most important issue is dozens of their bodyguards. They are scared *****less if they have to
ride to the combat zone. They arrive in armoured column, all clean and shiny, but no matter the
odds they try to return back before the sunset. However, recently their camp was hit with Grad.
"I do hope that now they'll understand that shrapnel gives their chubby bellies the same treatment
as to grunts."
Junior officers and sergeants prefer not to report anything regarding movements of their units
tothe commanding officers. Because if they do, the data of this column will be immediately given
to separatists => ambush is inevitable => KIAs are inevitable. The amount of bust**rds and sc*m
in HQ is higher beyond comprehension. NatiGuard recieved even worse treatment, some officers are
very angry at NatiGuard, they think this war is their very fault, so they whistleblow all data regarding
them to the separatists, who do not take "nazi-prisoners" alive.
Sheer amount of lies, BS-talkings, hoorah-patrotism is nondimensional. Everyone from colonel
to Mr minister of defence, including Parubiy, Poroshenko and Avakov live in their own world, where
seps are killed in thousands daily, UA army is supplied with everything.
Awesome plans of mobilization is pure BS. To become experienced unit must go through fire and
blood, smell stench of the gunpowder, witness gore and guts on the ground, spend night under direct
fire. It is complete idiotism to expect professionalism from yesterday's students, workers, managers,
salesmen, artists, unemployed who are torn away from their peacful lives and throun right into the
grinder. They do no understand where they are sent, war is distant for them.
He is certain that in the short time all these liars, idiots and traitors will be cleansed and
kicked away from the army."
Волонтер "Крыльев Феникса" рассказал подробности прорыва 79-й бригады из оцепления российских
террористов.
While it is absurd to rely of Anne Applebaum judgment, the neocon wife of Polish foreign minister
is right about one thing: This is official end of EuroMaidan, so to speak. Now we can talk only about
civil war with all its irrationality and cruelty...
Without the fairy-tale pretense, some things are about to become clear. For one, we are about
to learn whether the West in 2014 is as united, and as determined to stop terrorism as it was 26
years ago. When the Libyan government brought down Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, in 1988,
the West closed ranks and isolated the Libyan regime. Can we do the same now-or will too many be
tempted to describe this as a "tragic accident," and to dismiss what will inevitably be a controversial
investigation as "inconclusive?" It is insufficient to state, as President Obama has now done, that
there must be a "cease-fire" in Ukraine. What is needed is a withdrawal of Russian mercenaries,
weapons, and support. The West-and the world-must push for Ukrainian state sovereignty to be reestablished
in eastern Ukraine, not for the perpetuation of another frozen conflict.
We will also learn something interesting about the Russian president. So far there is no sign of
shock or shame in Russia. But in truth, this tragedy offers Vladimir Putin an opportunity to get
out of the messy disaster he has created in eastern Ukraine. He now has the perfect excuse to denounce
the separatist movement and to cut its supplies. If he refuses, then we know that he remains profoundly
dedicated to the chaos and nihilism he created in Donetsk. We can assume he intends to perpetuate
it elsewhere. And if we are not prepared to fight it, we should be braced for it to spread.
It will likely take some time to determine who downed the Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777 over eastern
Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people onboard. Initial speculation is that someone with a
missile battery mistook the plane as a military aircraft, but the precise motive may be even harder
to discern.
Given the fog of war and the eagerness among the various participants to wage "information warfare,"
there is also the possibility that evidence – especially electronic evidence – might be tampered
with to achieve some propaganda victory.
Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko immediately labeled the tragedy "a terrorist act" although
there was no evidence that anyone intentionally shot down the civilian airliner. But Poroshenko
and others in the Kiev government have previously designated the ethnic Russians, who are resisting
the Feb. 22 overthrow of elected President Viktor Yanukovych, as "terrorists" so Poroshenko's bellicose
language was not a surprise.
For their part, the separatist rebels in eastern Ukraine denied responsibility for the crash
– saying they lacked anti-aircraft missiles that could reach the 33,000-foot altitude of the Malaysian
airliner – but there are reasons to suspect the rebels, including their previously successful efforts
to shoot down Ukrainian military aircraft operating in the war zone.
On Thursday, Russian President Vladimir Putin deflected questions about who may have fired the
missile as he called for an international investigation. But he made a telling point when he noted
that the "tragedy would not have happened if military actions had not been renewed in southeast
Ukraine."
Those likely to agree with that statement include German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French
President Francois Hollande who, during a lengthy four-way conference call with Poroshenko on June
30, tried desperately to get him to prolong the ceasefire. Only the U.S. voiced support for Poroshenko's
decision to spurn that initiative and order Ukrainian forces into a major offensive in the east.
It was in the context of Ukrainian forces using their airpower to strike rebel positions that
led to the rebels' efforts to neutralize that advantage by deploying anti-aircraft missiles that
have achieved some success in downing Ukrainian military planes. The Ukrainian military is also
known to possess anti-aircraft batteries scattered throughout the country.
Raw Meat for Russia Bashing
But the chance to further demonize Putin and Russia will be hard for Official Washington and
its corporate-owned press to resist. The New York Times was quick out of the starting blocks on
Friday with a lead editorial blaming the entire Ukraine conflict, including the Malaysian Airline
tragedy, on Putin:
"There is one man who can stop it – President Vladimir Putin of Russia, by telling the Russian-backed
separatists in eastern Ukraine to end their insurgency and by stopping the flow of money and heavy
weapons to those groups."
Among Putin's alleged offenses, according to the Times, has been his "failing to support a cease-fire
and avoiding serious, internationally mediated negotiations" – though Putin has actually been one
of principal advocates for both a cease-fire and a negotiated solution. It has been the U.S.-backed
Poroshenko who canceled the previous cease-fire and has refused to negotiate with the ethnic Russian
rebels until they essentially surrender.
But the death of all 298 people onboard the Malaysian Airline flight, going from Amsterdam to
Kuala Lumpur, will surely provide plenty of fuel for the already roaring anti-Russian propaganda
machine. Still, the U.S. press might pause to recall how it's been manipulated by the U.S. government
in the past, including three decades ago by the Reagan administration twisting the facts of the
KAL-007 tragedy.
In that case, a Soviet fighter jet shot down a Korean Air Line plane on Sept. 1, 1983, after
it strayed hundreds of miles off course and penetrated some of the Soviet Union's most sensitive
airspace over military facilities in Kamchatka and Sakhalin Island.
Over Sakhalin, KAL-007 was finally intercepted by a Soviet Sukhoi-15 fighter. The Soviet pilot
tried to signal the plane to land, but the KAL pilots did not respond to the repeated warnings.
Amid confusion about the plane's identity - a U.S. spy plane had been in the vicinity hours earlier
- Soviet ground control ordered the pilot to fire. He did, blasting the plane out of the sky and
killing all 269 people on board.
The Soviets soon realized they had made a horrendous mistake. U.S. intelligence also knew from
sensitive intercepts that the tragedy had resulted from a blunder, not from a willful act of murder
(much as on July 3, 1988, the USS Vincennes fired a missile that brought down an Iranian civilian
airliner in the Persian Gulf, killing 290 people, an act which President Ronald Reagan explained
as an "understandable accident").
But a Soviet admission of a tragic blunder regarding KAL-007 wasn't good enough for the Reagan
administration, which saw the incident as a propaganda windfall. At the time, the felt imperative
in Washington was to blacken the Soviet Union in the cause of Cold War propaganda and to escalate
tensions with Moscow.
Falsifying the Case
To make the very blackest case against Moscow, the Reagan administration suppressed the exculpatory
evidence from the U.S. electronic intercepts. The U.S. mantra became "the deliberate downing of
a civilian passenger plane." Newsweek ran a cover emblazoned with the headline "Murder in the Sky."
"The Reagan administration's spin machine began cranking up," wrote Alvin A. Snyder, then-director
of the U.S. Information Agency's television and film division, in his 1995 book, Warriors of
Disinformation.
USIA Director Charles Z. Wick "ordered his top agency aides to form a special task force to devise
ways of playing the story overseas. The objective, quite simply, was to heap as much abuse on the
Soviet Union as possible," Snyder recalled.
Snyder noted that "the American media swallowed the U.S. government line without reservation.
Said the venerable Ted Koppel on the ABC News 'Nightline' program: 'This has been one of those occasions
when there is very little difference between what is churned out by the U.S. government propaganda
organs and by the commercial broadcasting networks.'"
On Sept. 6, 1983, the Reagan administration went so far as to present a doctored transcript of
the intercepts to the United Nations Security Council (a prelude to a similar false presentation
two decades later by Secretary of State Colin Powell on Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction).
"The tape was supposed to run 50 minutes," Snyder said about recorded Soviet intercepts. "But
the tape segment we [at USIA] had ran only eight minutes and 32 seconds. … 'Do I detect the fine
hand of [Richard Nixon's secretary] Rosemary Woods here?' I asked sarcastically.'"
But Snyder had a job to do: producing the video that his superiors wanted. "The perception we
wanted to convey was that the Soviet Union had cold-bloodedly carried out a barbaric act," Snyder
wrote.
Only a decade later, when Snyder saw the complete transcripts - including the portions that the
Reagan administration had hidden - would he fully realize how many of the central elements of the
U.S. presentation were false.
The Soviet fighter pilot apparently did believe he was pursuing a U.S. spy plane, according to
the intercepts, and he was having trouble in the dark identifying the plane. At the instructions
of Soviet ground controllers, the pilot had circled the KAL airliner and tilted his wings to force
the aircraft down. The pilot said he fired warning shots, too. "This comment was also not on the
tape we were provided," Snyder wrote.
It was clear to Snyder that in the pursuit of its Cold War aims, the Reagan administration had
presented false accusations to the United Nations, as well as to the people of the United States
and the world. To these Republicans, the ends of smearing the Soviets had justified the means of
falsifying the historical record.
In his book, Snyder acknowledged his role in the deception and drew an ironic lesson from the
incident. The senior USIA official wrote, "The moral of the story is that all governments, including
our own, lie when it suits their purposes. The key is to lie first." [For more details on the KAL-007
deception and the history of U.S. trickery, see Consortiumnews.com's "A
Dodgy Dossier on Syrian War."]
Reliability of U.S. Intelligence
It was not always this way. There was a time when the U.S. government wouldn't risk its credibility
for a cheap propaganda stunt, knowing that there are moments when it is crucial for the world to
believe what U.S. officials say.
Some of us will remember when, in 1962, U.S. Ambassador to the UN Adlai Stevenson showed the
Security Council U-2 photographs of fledgling Soviet offensive missile bases in Cuba. It was the
perfect squelch to the Soviets and their allies trying to sow doubt about the truth behind President
John F. Kennedy's allegations.
Sadly, the credibility of U.S. officials and American intelligence is now at rock bottom. One
need only think back on the evidence adduced to "prove" the existence of WMD in Iraq. "The intelligence
and facts were being fixed around the policy" is what the head of British intelligence told Prime
Minister Tony Blair on July 23, 2002, after conferring with CIA Director George Tenet at CIA headquarters
on July 20.
I also have grown more and more suspicious of the official U.S. government account about the
crash of TWA-800 on July 17, 1996. Shortly after departing Kennedy Airport in New York, the plane
exploded off Long Island with 230 people killed. More than 100 eyewitnesses reported seeing an object
they described variously as a "missile," "flare" or "rocket" rise up into the sky and merge with
TWA Flight 800.
The immediate suspicion was that the disaster was an act of terrorism, although some speculation
focused on the presence of U.S. Navy missile-carrying warships in the area. However, after raising
much of the plane's wreckage from the sea bottom, the National Transportation Safety Board and Justice
Department/FBI dismissed the eyewitness accounts of a missile and concluded instead that the explosion
was caused by an electrical malfunction.
To help in selling this version, the CIA "technical experts" working under CIA Director George
Tenet – yes, the same fellow who described the Iraq WMD evidence as a "slam dunk" – were enlisted
to prepare a video artfully designed to discredit the missile claims. But the TWA800 Project Investigative
Team – a determined group of engineers, scientists, eyewitnesses and journalists – have continued
to challenge the official findings, including the CIA video. [To see the team's rebuttal,
click here.]
Quite aside from the likelihood that CIA exceeded its authority with its involvement in this
domestic issue, it pains me as a former CIA analyst that my former colleagues would take part in
this kind of deception, producing a video that was unprofessional at best and fraudulent at worst.
So, there is, sadly, additional reason to kick the tires of any fancy truck carrying "intelligence"
offered by the U.S. with respect to the Malaysian Airline shoot-down on Thursday.
Ray McGovern works with Tell the Word, a publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour
in inner-city Washington. He came to Washington over 50 years ago and worked as a CIA analyst under
seven Presidents, one less than Gates. Ray now serves on the Steering Group of Veteran Intelligence
Professionals for Sanity (VIPS).
Hello all,
It's a very long time since I commented as I don't regularly follow the happenings within Russia
that much nowadays. It's unfortunate that my country lost another civilian aircraft yet again.
I just want to say that Putin already lost the propaganda war – in my country and most of
the world. CNN, BBC, Guardian etc. are just too influential and deemed 'impartial' by most people
in my country. If you ask me who shot the plane – I'd say wait for the conclusion of investigators
but I have a bad feeling that we will never know what really took place. To be honest, I am
inclined to think the 'pro-Russian rebels' mistakenly shot the plane although I would not be
surprised if it turned out the Ukrainian military did it. Whatever it is, Putin lost in this
propaganda war. No matter how, he is already considered a 'mass murderer' and responsible for
'the deaths of innocent people' in my country and in the eyes of most people of the world.
I think Putin made a mistake in not acting decisively on Eastern Ukraine. He should have
either left the pro-Russian rebels abandoned to their own devices or annexed Eastern Ukraine
and brave the wrath of the West. Now, the Western hawks are all behind Ukraine. I see Putin
has not much choice diplomatically Perhaps, a world war is looming – thanks to Western hawkish
stupidity.
It does seem like that but it is far from over. 'Winning' the propaganda war though is only
one side of the coin and the smoke hasn't even cleared yet.
A) Can the West effectively exploit this to its advantage in the Ukraine?
I don't see how this could work. What they've come up with is barely circumstantial and cannot
be constituted as a hanging offense for Russia. The coalescing (non political) view seems to
be that it was an accident. How far can you run with something like that?;
B) Lasting damage to Russia's reputation. Is this going to hit trade between Russia and non-Western
countries in the short term, let alone the medium to long term?
For capitalists, it is only a passing issue unless there is an actual war or sanctions become
serious. Both major businesses in the US and Europe have come out publicly against sanctions
that could seriously hit trade with Russia. Russia's ties with Asia and elsewhere are only but
expanding, where countries have the money to pay whist the West remain the economic sick men.
C) Will it change political relations significantly?
Neither Germany nor the Netherlands look like they are going to be bounced in to quick action
that follows the Washington/London line. The strategic issue of what to do with Russia has not
gone away and is simply much bigger than the current conflict in the Ukraine. At some time ground
rules will need to be negotiated between Russia and the EU, probably behind closed doors. Laying
in personally to Putin would be counter intuitive diplomatically. These countries still need
Russian 'help' or acquiescence in multiple problems around the world.
What if?
What if Kiev is pinned for this? It already has some blame for letting flights go over its airspace.*
It cannot be fully absolved in any case.
The damage would be immense and widespread, taking in NATO, trans-atlantic relations etc.
Simply walking away and saying it was a mistake and expecting everything to remain the same
will not be possible even if they try.
What happened is beyond horrible and there's plenty of disgust to spread around for those
milking it amorally for their own political purposes. Nothing has changed.
Al, you ask "what if Kiev is pinned for this?" No problem, it can be easily spun. Depending
on whether the US wants to keep Pork Chop, it can be spun a number of ways such as it was a
rogue unit or an attempted coup against Pork Chop and he and his cabinet knew nothing about
it, they were misled by elements within their own intelligence services. This is a god one since
the US then has the excuse to get involved in making Ukraine's intelligence services more 'professional'.
Alternatively, if Pork Chop is for the chop so to speak, it can be described as sheer incompetence,
the Ukrainian government were all for putting their hands up to it but Pork Chop overruled them
and so he has to go. Or even it was done by a Ukrainian unit that had been tortured by the rebels
and were suffering from PTSD and worthy of our sympathy and understanding.
The West has had decades of experience at this sort of thing. And the MSM will follow the
party line like a flock of starlings without any apparent awareness that they were flying in
one direction and are now flying in the opposite one.
I'm not so sure Fern. Such spinnings may have worked very well in the past but us general
voting cattle are no longer related to the brass monkeys of old.
We see this reflected more and more in comments sections of news items where more and more
people say "Well how is this different from anything we/our government do/does?"). This view
is in part driven by disappointment by the failings of our own governments and seeing decisive
leaders in action (Putin), i.e. the grass is greener on the other side syndrome, but this is
still people actively making this view public, not some anonymous passive poll taking with the
usual fixed or leading questions.
The complete contradictions become harder and harder to ignore and are amplified when our
media simply ignore them and other basic questions you would expect even the greenest of journalists
to ask.
Sure, most people do not spend obsessive amounts of time on public forums picking over everything,
but the method is clearly repeated over and over and over again. Memory can be refreshed by
a simple internet search.
I think that finally public consciousness has caught up with the cynical and amoral games
our leaders have been playing since time immemorial and also might have something to do with
the recognition of the West's current and relative diminishing of its global powers. We've all
become extremely cynical.
As for the rest of the world, I see similar cynicism yet more hope for the future.
These are extraordinary times we are living in and it is really difficult to look at ongoing
events with an impartial perspective even if you try, but at least us commenters here on Mark's
blog recognize this.
Along those lines, I did notice a subtle shift in Western MSM coverage starting today.
The comments gently chiding Ukraine about its aviation "negligence", and such-like.
Is the start of a walking-back and preparation of mass lemming consciousness for the
"revelation" that Ukes might have accidentally shot the missile?
Fingers crossed. Although a 'no conclusive evidence, truth may never be known, all Russia's
fault for annexing Danzig' cop-out is more likely than an outright admission of possible
Uke fault.
Is probably true that the West "won the propaganda war".
Which would be the case if people around the world are stupid enough to regard channels
like the "BBC" and "CNN" as dispassionate, objective sources (as opposed to mouthpieces
for their respective governments).
In which case, if Russia already lost the propaganda war, then it is all the more urgent
that the Rebels win the "real war".
The one on the ground.
In which case, Russia needs to start arming and supporting the Rebs with all due urgency.
Otherwise, if Strelkov is right, the Rebels will be defeated, and then Russia will have
lost 2 wars, both propaganda and actual.
And then, following such a defeat, Russia will also lose Crimea again and have to hand
over Crimea and the entire Black Sea to NATO.
.
(Channelling Karl here, but his dire predictions have been right about a lot of things….)
Does anyone else have a desire to just quit following the whole Ukraine mess and reading
Russia related articles in mainstream media? I think I am having this moment right now.
Russia is being attacked from all fronts in our (Finnish) mainstream media. Multiple
articles and op-eds are being written every day and the tone is getting more hateful and
aggressive all the time. Each story is being spun in favor of Kiev/West and against Russia.
I'm certain that Russia has never received this much of hatred and venom in Finland since
the days of war.
Being a dissident in this environment is getting pretty hard. A few years ago there were
some Russia friendly commentators in news comment sections, but most of them have disappeared.
That mat at least partly be a result of censorship. In Helsingin Sanomat my messages are
being systematically censored. Some of the messages were published but were later deleted
by the moderators.
I also created an account to a Finnish military forum called maanpuolustus.net. 100%
of the folks there were pro-West and pro-Kiev. I posted some Youtube videos about Kiev atrocities
in eastern Ukraine and my account was immediately banned.
The media of my country claims to be "free", but I feel like living in a media dictatorship
where only the "correct" and "patriotic" views are allowed. Being anti-Russian is part of
the Finnish patriotism. You cannot be a true Finnish patriot unless you either directly
hate Russia or pretend to be "concerned about human rights/democracy in Russia" and by that
way conceal your hatred behind these "concerns".
Reading the mainstream media only makes me angered and it is not healthy. It is a nice
summer so why should I ruin my mood with this? Trying to fight an anti-Russian propaganda
in our media is like trying to swim uphill. You are being either censored or banned, or
you are being attacked and blamed being a Kremlin troll.
Dear Karl:
For your psychological health, I would recommend just taking a rest from the news, at least
for a while. Go off somewhere, and enjoy your summer!
Life is too short to suffer when you don't have to.
Along the theme of "Forget the propaganda war, Rebels MUST win the Real War",
here is an opinion
piece by Boris Kagarlitsky, from yesterday. This is one of the best political analyses
I have seen, how this war in Ukraine relates to Russian politics.
PARTIAL TRANSLATION
At the beginning of July, Novorossiya was saved by a whisker. Having avoided he catastrophic
defeat that was prepared for it by "Fifth Column" in Donetsk as well as the "Sixth Column"
in Moscow [yalensis: I think he means, not so much the ineffectual White Ribbon types, as
the neo-liberal types who hang around the Kremlin), the Peoples Republics were able to deliver
a strategic defeat to the junta. From this point on, a turning point in the war is possible.
But this depends not only on what happens at the Front.
(...)
The shattering Igor Strelkov's grouping [in Slav'ansk] would have paved the way [for
junta troops to enter] Donetsk from 3 directions, without any threats to their flanks. This
would have pleased the Moscow liberals. But History decided otherwise. The reinforcing of
Slav'ansk and the bold actions of the Resistance prevented the triumphal march of the National
Guard throug Donbass. Thus was averted the junta's Plan B, which was based on the work of
traitors. [yalensis: Here, once again, I believe that Kagarlitsky has Kurgin'an in mind!]
The main forces of the Resistance were supposed to remain in place and continue to defend
Slav'ansk, while at the same time the "Fifth Column" was supposed to open the gates of Donetsk
to the army of the "Punishers". The city (Donetsk) did not have adequate reinforcements,
and within the leadership of the DPR sat some people who were loyal to Rinat Akhmetov. However,
this Plan B collapsed at the beginning of July, just as Plan A had collapsed at the beginning
of June.
(…)
There is still no (decisive) break in the war. But it could happen, if the Novorossiya
republics can hold out until autumn(…) This doesn't fit in with the plans of the Kiev junta,
nor with the plans of certain very influential people in Moscow. These latter were shocked
by the setback to (Kiev's) latest plan. (…) Their shock at the planned "throwing of Novorossiya
under the bus" gave rise to these rude attacks, on the part of the conservatives, against
Strelkov.(…)
The civil war in the Ukraine has exposed the crisis of Russian politics. All the hopes
and dreams of the (Russian) elites to avoid new conflicts with the EU and USA, have been
shattered, because internal problems of the Western countries push them into a fight against
the Russian government, and Russian capital [yalensis: "Capital" in the Marxist sense, not
the capital of a country]. The Kremlin's timid attempt to allow some integration of post-Soviet
economies is regarded by Brussels and Washington as an act of aggression, as a threat to
the neo-liberal order in Eurasia. And, moreover, the betrayal of Novorossiya by the "Sixth
Column" would not have changed a thing, except for the fact that USA and EU, taking advantage
of this situation, would have struck ever more blows against Russia. Because this is the
only way they can secure their hegemony.
The war in Ukraine has divided Russian society. It has divided both (traditional) "lefts"
and "rights" into proponents of reaction; versus those who want to see (a genuine) socio-economic
rebirth of the post-Soviet world. Those who support Novorossiya, regardless of their subjective
inclinations and prejudices, are objectively supporting a social republic, a union of peoples,
and an actual democracy (….) The people in power are also divided. But there, the struggle
takes on a secretive character. The opinions of the Russian oligarchy, and the balance between
liberal and non-liberal groupings within the government, as always remain the main obstacle
for any Kremlin attempts to defend (Russia's) national interests.
Yesterday the enemy cut the last main highway linking the Donetsk with Lugansk and, accordingly,
with Russia. Strong points of the enemy are now in the villages Beloye and Vesela Tarasovka.
Now ukry hastily buried in the ground several dozens of tanks and armored personnel carriers,
in order to exclude the possibility of breaking the defense.
... surrender of Tarasivka should be viewed in the operations scale as a strategic defeat!
Now we are cut off from the border - that is, from any supplies
At night the enemy went through the Tonenkoe to the airport of Donetsk, creating a network
of base stations, each of which is protected 5-7 tanks.
Just now three Su bombers hit Saur-grave with heavy bombs. The results are not known yet.
Boeing is used by Ukrow "to the fullest"... Aviation of ukrow dominates in the sky with impunity.
In the area of Grygorivka militia attacked the convoy of the enemy. The results are still
need evaluation.
Its really hard to say, there are many information coming
out of Luhansk, most of them, as usually, plain propaganda BS. One of them is that political
leadership of LPR fled the city and left militia commanders in charge. They still have that
route to Krasnodon open, but they cannot afford to call for units in Krasnodon to come to their
aid, otherwise Izvarino UA forces that are holding part of border area, cut from rest of UA
units for god-knows-how-long would march to Krasnodon and closed the circle.
They cannot afford to call on Torez – Snizhne units because they are holding off southern
flank and meanwhile UA forces are massing for past few days next to Amvrosiivka and MLRSing
seps position near Saur Mogila, Amvrosiivka etc, certainly preparing for assault on Amvrosiivka.
And they´ve been cut off Mozgolev Severodonetsk group who is now under another assault. In
Donetsk, Strelkov is meanwhile desperately trying to recruit as many locals as humanly possible,
offering them thrice the average salary.
Their problem is that after Slaviansk they came to "not a step back" position. And they are
under assault everywhere. And after MH17, UA forces can do whatever the hell they want and no
one will raise an eyebrow. There will be no more calling from Berlin about direct peace talks
between seps and Poroshenko. Seps AD operators will now think very, very carefully about launching
another missile (that Antonov today came under AAA fire, not MANPAD and managed to perform emergency
landing on friendly airport with minimal damage). And by assaulting western outskirts of Luhansk,
UA forces cut the Donetsk – Luhansk – Krasnodon supply line shut. Meanwhile in US Congress,
Congressmen are demanding supplying UA army with advanced weaponry (that is whole point of that
act), Poland pretty much is already doing that and now even Angela Merkel said to Hollande that
he should stop the Mistral transfer. And on Tuesday or Wednesday you will see more sanctions,
possibly something more.
The publicly offered evidence against everyone in the Malaysian Airlines MH17 crash remains as
it was yesterday,
sparse and of dubious trustworthiness. The rhetoric continues to pick up steam, however, with
assorted Western officials continuing to pronounce absolute certainty as to the official truth,
whatever it happens to be at any given time.
Broadly,
it centers on proclamations of the Ukrainian rebels' guilt, and Russian culpability, though the
narrative tends to be flexible, and yesterday's insistence of the rebels using a 9k37 Buk vehicle
seized from Ukraine's military has, without explanation, transitioned into the vehicles being provided
by Russia, of which
Ukraine
insists incontrovertible, though totally secret, proof.
The Obama Administration is similarly claiming evidence of rebel guilt, though their evidence
too is being withheld, likely in anticipation of further changes to the official story.
As the accusations fly fast and freely, another new question has emerged. If, as Ukraine claims,
it had so much proof of the rebels having such advanced anti-aircraft missiles, then
why was the claim never made publicly until nearly a day after the crash. Likewise, Ukraine's
claims of rebel shoot-downs of military aircraft in the leadup to the MH17 incident seem to be morphing,
as it was only hours before that incident that Ukraine was insisting Russia's Air Force was directly
behind the downing of their Su-25 warplanes.
The wreckage is still barely inspected, and Ukraine is
throwing around claims of a cover-up, perhaps anticipating that their allegations will not be
upheld when the evidence is examined.
But for most nations, particularly the US and other Western nations, the fallout of the incident
is something to be shopped around for diplomatic advantage, with officials
pushing Russia to forcibly end the east Ukrainian rebellion as some sort of payment for ending
the hysterical anti-Russia rhetoric surrounding the entire incident. Russia so far seems content
to hold out for actual evidence, but Western officials appear to believe it is a buyer's market,
and that the perception of guilt is the real problem for Russia, not whether it is upheld by weeks
of investigation.
At this time my provisional conclusion is that MH17 was shot down by an air
defense battery of the Ukrainian army, from Ukrainian territory, using an SA-17 Buk missile.
I respectfully associate myself with the statements of the Russian federal government on the issue.
My estimate is that a 9M317 single-stage, solid fueled missile was used, in semi-active homing
mode. The 317 uses a radar proximity fuse and a direct hit can probably be ruled out.
That is to say the warhead probably detonated away from the hull, perhaps as much as 50 feet away.
That is consistent with the eyewitness evidence, which is of the plane falling from the sky more
or less intact, and breaking apart on impact, and the tight debris field. Although there was
a post-crash fire most of the unfortunate victims seem to have died from negative G-forces whilst
strapped into their seats.
The fact that most passengers were strapped in suggests that Captain Leong had time to warn his
passengers of impending missile impact. There is some evidence that he took evasive maneuvers,
correctly diving the aircraft to increase speed and mitigate damage due to explosive decompression.
MH17's assigned altitude, by Ukrainian air traffic control, was FL330, or 33,000 feet.
I suspect that Captain Leong or his first officer saw the incoming and, as indicated, dived, so
that interception was at a lower altitude.
There is no evidence that the target fireballed at altitude, which rules out
a direct hit on the fuel tanks, although we may find some shrapnel damage.
The mainstream media, who are rushing to blame Russia, or pro-Russian separatists,
are showing typical aviation illiteracy, of the sort on display after MH370 was shot down. On
that occasion, as regular readers of this column will recall, they did not understand that aviation
fuel is light and evaporates. That basic technical deficiency led them to confuse the diesel
slick from the sunk Chinese SSK with fuel from the downed airliner.
On this occasion they are reporting at one and the same time, sometimes on the same page, that
the airliner was 'blown out of the sky' yet fell to the ground intact and broke apart on landing.
In the UK the Sun is leading the race to come up with the silliest reporting, with respect.
Its front page today was asinine. Its journalistic standards are in freefall to New York Times
levels.
If the stricken airliner did not fireball and had time to take evasive action, it also had
time to broadcast a Mayday message. The fact that it did not suggests that its radios were
being jammed. We will probably find that its ACARS reporting system failed as well, as
with MH370. I find it highly significant that there is a media blackout on the status on the
ACARS system.
If the ACARS was disabled, or the radios were jammed, then the pro-Russian separatists
can safely be ruled out, although as I explain below they can be pretty much ruled out anyway, as
they lack the capability.
____________________
The SA-17
The SA-17, which also has a naval variant, originally entered Soviet service
in 1979, but it has been developed considerably since then, indeed the latest, SA-17, versions have
a different Pentagon classification.
It is fired from either a Transporter-Erector Launcher (TEL), with four missiles, or a Transport-Erector
Launcher And Radar (TELAR), which I think can carry up to six missiles, depending on version. It
is a highly capable system, in service with both the Russian and Ukrainian armed forces.
Some of the technology may have been transferred from the US during the Soviet period by DVD
assets in Washington. The SA-17 is similar to the excellent Standard missile, indeed it is sometimes
jokingly referred to as the "Standardski".
The distinction between the TEL and the TELAR is important, because it is being said that Russian
separatists captured a Buk launcher, although the evidence consists only of social media reports,
a dubious source of information at best. The evidence, such as it is, is equally consistent with
the Ukrainians setting the rebels up. The separatists themselves have strongly denied any high-altitude
interception capability.
The Buk represented a significant improvement over the SA-6 Gainful which preceded it. There
is no doubt that TELAR vehicles can both acquire and launch but significant doubt that a TEL on
its own has any target acquisition capability.
So far as I can tell a TEL is basically a launch on visual confirmation of target system, i.e.
pretty basic, rather like a shoulder-launched MANPAD. You see the target, point your missile in
its rough direction and shoot, relying on the missile's onboard target acquisition system (typically
infra-red with MANPADs and semi-active with the Buk) to achieve lock-on, hoping another target does
not get in the way.
The SA-17 is designed to be fired from a command vehicle, that is to say it is not so very different
from the SA-6, where you needed three vehicles (radar, command vehicle and launcher). There
is not the slightest evidence that the separatists acquired a command vehicle, indeed there is no
reliable evidence that they acquired a TELAR. The most they might have got – and I am not
buying even that – was a TEL.
If the most they have is a TEL then we can rule them out completely for a beyond
visual range engagement, as happened yesterday. Even if they had a TELAR there is no evidence
that they have anyone trained on the Buk. I do not buy the argument that it can be used by your
average separatist, many of them no brighter than the average journalist or MP (no offense intended),
without specialist training. There are no reports at all of the separatists having fired any
training rounds, i.e. if it was them they achieved a long-range kill first time they fired the
weapon. Not buying.
Missile speed for the 317 version is around Mach 4, giving Captain Leong no chance at all, given
that his radars were switched on and no one showed him my work on MH370. An SA-17 warhead
is typically around 70 kilos, or 154 pounds (there are different versions of the missile), enough
to down a 777. It's a big bird, around 18 feet long, weighing in at just over 1,500 pounds. It's
large enough for one of the pilots to have spotted its approach in broad daylight, given the good
visibility. The solid fuel rocket engine has a burn time of around 15 seconds and leaves a highly
visible exhaust trail.
The 317 has a range of about 27-28 miles. That is significant because MH17 was shot
down about 25 miles from the Russian frontier. That is getting close to the limit of system
capabilities for a launch from Russian territory. US intelligence sources are being quoted today
as saying that the missile was fired from within the Ukraine, which makes sense to me, and is
one of the reasons why I conclude, provisionally, that the Ukrainians were responsible.
______________________
Kiev Must Have Known It Was MH17
The next thing to note about the SA-17 is that it has a sophisticated phased-array
fire control radar, capable of target differentiation. Assuming, as I am prepared to assume, that
it was the Ukrainian army, then they must have known that it was MH17. A freely available
phone app was all they would have needed to tell them where the flight was.
The target was flying along a designated airway at a typical altitude for a civilian airliner,
probably with an active transponder until it was taken down after entering Ukrainian airspace. It
was not maneuvering, at least not until it saw the incoming, and could not conceivably have been
confused for a military aircraft, not least as it had been directed to the kill zone by Ukrainian
air traffic control.
____________________
Why MH17?
It seems that the motive was to discredit Russia, and that nice man President
Putin in particular. The Ukrainian attack on MH17 was obviously planned well in advance.
The preparations may have included fake entries on social media websites to the effect that the
rebels had acquired an SA-17 launcher. So far as is known there were no persons of interest on board
the plane, unlike MH370, save for the poor AIDS researchers.
It is wildly improbable that it is a coincidence that both shot down aircraft were Malaysian.
Someone is making a point. Malaysian Airlines are being taken down. If you have any frequent
flyer miles on Malaysian use them up now, preferably on a partner airline.
The Administration has also rounded on the Russians and the rebels. Its claim that the rebels
were to blame is obvious nonsense, which is unlikely to have been supported by professional intelligence
officers, who would have had access to pretty much the same ELINT as the Russians.
I entirely support Moscow's claim to be in possession of ELINT data indicating
that the target was painted by Ukrainian fire control radar, probably the organic fire control radar
of a Ukrainian SA-17 battery.
The total inability of the Administrationto give the co-ordinates of this
alleged rebel-controlled SA-17 launcher is telling. All that President Obama could say today
was that the missile was fired from within a rebel-held area.
That, with respect, is an obvious lie, since the NSA would have overheads, as well as the ELINT
data. If the attack genuinely came from a rebel-held area then you can bet your bottom
dollar the Administration would be handing out the evidence.
It is likely that the attack was cleared by Kiev in advance, high up the payroll, with both Berlin
and the White House. The FAA, which is penetrated and was implicated in helping to set up
the Turkish Airlines DC-10 Paris Air Disaster, seems to have helped in setting up the rebels as
patsies. The presence of only one US citizen on board carried obvious political attractions
for the White House.
One must recall that the covert German DVD intelligence organisation has thoroughly penetrated
the Obama Administration, at a senior level, and is in effective control of the German federal government.
It is the world's only intelligence agency which regularly attacks commercial airliners.
The Russians have never knowingly shot down a civilian airliner on a designated airway.
I leave out of account KAL007 and the earlier KAL Boeing 707 incident, as those aircraft were well
off course, were intercepted at night and had violated Soviet airspace without authorisation.
There is no reason at all to suppose that the Soviet fighter pilots thought they
were attacking a Boeing 747, indeed there is no reliable evidence that KAL007 was even showing
her navigation lights. As I point out in Spyhunter there are unanswered questions
about that incident.
... ... ...
The Failure to Follow Up the MH370 Shoot Down
Those who suppressed my warnings from the aviation community now have blood
on their hands. Had poor Captain Leong known that the Bad Guys were deliberately firing long range
missiles at airliners using semi-active homing he would have known better than to cruise over contested
airspace with his radars turned on.
Had my advice, as given in Spyhunter and in this column after MH370 was shot down, been
followed, then this tragedy would not have happened. It is upsetting to see lives thrown away in
this casual manner.
At least my argument that airliners face high altitude missile threats, obvious from the time
we realised that the Iranians had shot down TWA800 with a Phoenix, may now be given greater weight.
Aviation security consultants have obsessed, dangerously, with MANPADS, which have a typical ceiling
of only 12-15,000 feet.
It is a pity that Malaysian Airlines did not consult me after 370. Almost alone amongst aviation
security experts I was alive to the high-altitude threat, indeed I am the only aviation intelligence
specialist in the world to have gone public on the high altitude missile threat to airliners.
I would have advised strongly against flying through contested Ukrainian airspace.
The FAA warnings and claims that the rebels had acquired a Buk would have been further red flags
for me.
There it is, sadly. The airline rejected my claim that MH370 was shot down, or accepted
it and participated in the cover-up, took no steps whatsoever to guard against the high altitude
missile threat and have now lost another 777, 295 people and probably the airline itself into
the bargain.
To get to levels of zerohedge paranoia ... wasn't there NATO exercises in the Black Sea that
have "successfully concluded" just um... yesterday? More shades of TWA 800. History is weird.
Malaysia's Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal (KLWCT) found former Israeli army general Amos Yaron
and the state of Israel guilty of crimes against humanity and genocide stemming from the massacre
of Palestinians in Beirut's Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in 1982.
For the past two weeks, Malaysia has been strongly condemning Israel's aggression on Gaza.
...and, possibly, for the past two weeks, Israel's been thinking about how to punish Malaysia.
WASHINGTON -- President Obama said the United States has "increasing confidence" that the
missile that shot down a Malaysian jetliner came from Russian separatists in Ukraine -- and that
Russia bears some responsibility for the crisis.
"Evidence indicates that the plane was shot down by a surface-to-air missile from an area that
is controlled by Russian backed separatists inside Ukraine," Obama said in his first extensive remarks
on the passenger jet crash. "A group of separatists can't shoot down military transport planes or,
they claim, fighter jets, without sophisticated military equipment, and that comes from Russia."
Yes. We are also not winning in Iraq, and that comes from Iran.
Obama noted that about a hundred AIDS researchers and activists were reportedly on the flight,
headed to a conference in Australia.
"These were men and women who dedicated their own lives to saving the lives of others, and they
were taken from us in a senseless act of violence," he said. "It's important for us to lift them
up and affirm their lives."
Do speechwriters just string together random crap to generate maximum pathos?
Not sure about the creation date in the mp4 meta data being such a great evidence. It's known
to be iffy at times and different from the actual file creation. But on the original research page
at zerohedge.com it becomes clear the video was partly preexisting since June 5 in terms of
format, production and some imagery used. Very sloppy all in all, even if the creation date would
be a red herring, the odd production and timing is certainly not!
And the shoot-down coming on the day the Israeli ground invasion of Gaza began is a curious coincidence-
something spectacular to divert the low-information public's attention? I have to wonder just how
much you'd have to pay someone- say, in the Ukraine military- to target and launch on a civilian
airliner as part of a false-flag op?
In other important, world-shaking news, Kim Kardashian was seen today showing off her bottom.
How easily we're distracted from real issues these days.
How does Russia possibly benefit from this shoot down (cui bono?). This question was not asked
by Washington when they claimed that Assad used sarin gas on his own people, even though he had
nothing to gain and everything to lose. And, naturally, they are not asking it now. Washington does
not want its sheeple to think now, does it?
Pictures that got to the Internet today from the crash site suggest that the airliner was
shot not "BUK" surface to air missile but by air to air mille from those "unknown" two fighters,
which were mentioned in his blog "the Spanish air traffic controller" who work at Borispol airport
in Kiev.
"In anti-aircraft missiles have different type of warheads depending to the type of the rocket,
" explained to the newspaper one of the creators of the complex "Buk". - So from the wreckage
it is easy to determine what type of rocket surface to air or air to air was used".
For example, in the complex "Buk" use anti-aircraft missiles MM. Their speed - 850 meters per
second, a warhead weight of 70 kg. Warhead payload consists of are metal balls which when the warhead
is blow near the target create a dense cloud of balls rushing to target of high speed.
"When such balls hit the aircraft it inflicts a mass of different holes, " says the designer.
- In the fuselage they can be small, in the fuel tanks much bigger and it they get into the engine
that they "knock out" all the turbine blades".
Judging by photos of the remains of a Boeing 777, the expert concludes that the plane was shot
by aircraft air to air missile. In their military units not the balls but a beam of sharp metal
rods, sometimes welded together, sometimes not. For the set bundle of rods installed release charge
which is called the "fragmentation rod combat unit". When the warhead approaches the target at predetermined
distance the charge is explodes in the warhead and a bundle of rods on supersonic speeds rush to
the target.
After contact with the aircraft a rod just due to its huge kinetics energy is to pierce the plane
through thus destroying the internal structure of the aircraft, including electrical circuits and
vital avionics equipment. The speed of the rod is such that he can break apart even titanium spars
of the aircraft. If the target gets more then 2-3% of these arrows, the plane is completely doomed:
at speeds of 900 km per hours even small hole fuselage or a wing is fatal as air flow will destroy
the damaged part in less than a minute.
Such warheads are installed on two types of missiles R-73 and R-27. At first its mass is 7.4
kg, second - 40 kg. Fighters MiG-29 and su-27 are equipped with those missiles. Both machines take
an active part in the Ukrainian troops "anti-terrorist operation" in the South-East of the country.
As noted the designer of Buk:
" I am confident that from the photos that appeared in the Internet visible damage to
the skin of the airliner has characteristic of fragmentation rods, not a high-explosive ball-based
warhead, such as Buk".
Those pictures make the mysterious message "Spanish" Manager that Boeing 777 was accompanied
by two Ukrainian fighter (the militia there is no technique), and his assumption that after the
"visit" of these cars passenger liner disappeared from radar screens, less implausible. In this
situation the version of of the Federal air transport Agency saying that the attack on the
Malaysian Boeing could be an attempt to shoot down the plane of the President of Russia Vladimir
Putin, who was returning from Latin America, as their routes overlap, and the colors of the
fuselage two aircraft very similar.
In favor of this version speaks that fact, that in the place of supposed route of two aircraft
of the Ukrainian military in advance deployed a battery of anti-aircraft missile systems Buk and
put them on high alert, as evidenced by the data of the radio interceptions of the Russian military.
They also raised into the air two fighters. And the fact that militia has no aviation means tha
attack was performed by the Ukrainian side. Looks like the pilots of the Ukrainian air force were
unable to distinguish Malaysian Boeing 777 from Russian Il-96.
And it is easy to make such a mistake due to similarity of sizes and colors of the plane. Moreover
in 2001 the calculation of the Ukrainian anti-aircraft missile system S-200V easily identified a
Russian passenger Tu-154 as a missile target and hit it destroying the airliner with all people
aboard. Although on the radar screen targets are drastically distinct with different size of the
label, and on speed of flight.
And it is difficult to say something positive about the training of Ukrainian air force pilots.
The bombing of cities and towns of the South-East of Ukraine shows a very low level of training
of flying personnel of the air force. This is confirmed by the number of lost in battle helicopters
and planes.
It was the west, with its media road show and fog machine, that hyped the Maidan as a huge groundswell
of popular opinion, a "people's uprising", even though it attracted far smaller crowds than the
Orange Revolution. It was the west who whipped the protests into violence, shouting loudly that
Yanukovych must get his police off the streets and let the peaceful protesters have their way even
as they were heaving bricks and gasoline bombs and seizing control of public buildings.
Here's
what EU Foreign Policy Chief Ashton had to say about the heroic crowd on the Maidan: "I was
among you on Maidan in the evening and was impressed by the determination of Ukrainians
demonstrating for the European perspective of their country". Here's what she said about Yanukovych's
brutality toward protesters: "Dialogue with political forces and society and the use of arguments
is always better than the argument of force." Things changed a little bit once the EU and USA
maneuvered Poroshenko into the driver's seat, and those in the east who did not want to recognize
his dominion over them were not protesters; no, Lady Ashton and her doppelgänger in physical ugliness,
U.S, Secretary of State John Kerry
agreed that they were "pro-Russian
separatists", while Ukraine – which had already moved against them in full military strength
in direct contravention of the Ukrainian constitution and international law – had "shown remarkable
restraint". Fuck dialogue and the use of arguments: force rocks!! Around the same time,
the Estonian Foreign Minister confided
to Ashton suspicions that the snipers who had indiscriminately shot both protesters and police
from rooftops around Maidan had acted on the behest of the Ukrainian opposition, to sort of spur
things along to mindless rioting. Ashton's response will go down in history: "I think we do
want to investigate. I mean, I didn't pick that up, that's interesting. Gosh." Investigation
of the matter since? Zip. Zero. Nothing. Dropped like a hot stone. Apparently upon further examination,
it was all the way across town from "interesting".
Mr. Bilak apparently agrees with the might-makes-right approach; he reserved especial disappointment
for Germany's Angela Merkel, for her statement that "Ukraine should start immediate bilateral
negotiations with the terrorists rampaging through the Donbas."
Said terrorist body consisting, according to Mr. Bilak, of "marauding, fragmented bands of
10,000 Chechen fighters and Russian mercenaries, Donbas criminals, drug addicts, and other marginals".
What a long, rough way we have come from the nobility of "Ukrainians demonstrating for the
European perspective of their country". It must be disappointing for a professional military force
made up of genetically-acceptable Ukrainians to get its ass kicked by drug addicts, criminals and
marginals. Although perhaps he is not exactly sure of the composition of the opposing force, since
he offers no evidence whatsoever to support his allegations, and all evidence offered thus far of
state-sponsored Russian participation has been discredited. No use holding talks, anyway, says Bilak,
with terrorists who are too busy shooting up the towns they hold to negotiate. The deliberate obfuscation
and ignorance of this statement is breathtaking; there is no evidence that any property damage at
all accrues to the federalists, while it is the indiscriminate shelling by the Ukrainian army which
has reduced towns like Slaviyansk to rubble.
But beneath the all-seeing Eye Of Bilak, the situation for the bloodthirsty saboteurs of Ukraine's
destiny is simple; when the glorious forces of the Unified Ukraine prevail, the Ukrainians among
the defenders will be tried as terrorists, while the Russians fleeing for the safety of their evil
empire will be shot by Russian border guards.
But it didn't have to be this way. Putin could stop the entire conflict in its tracks, just by
waving his evil talon. This would "cut off the flow of funds, tanks, weapons and mercenaries
from Russia and to secure his side of the Ukrainian-Russian border."
But he won't do that unless the EU stops dicking around and applies some serious sanctions.
As if that were not enough rubbish, the garbage truck and the road completely part company at
this point. According to Mr. Bilak, "On Monday, Ukraine claimed a Russian fighter jet or one
of Russia's new rockets shot down a Ukrainian air force plane from inside Russian territory (based
on the fact that no side on Ukraine's territory has weaponry that could reach that height)."
Sure you want to stick with that story, Daniel? Because the downing yesterday of MH-17 was responded
to by Samantha Power at the UN with
a storm of frothy and rabid invective which included the contention that according to the official
United States position, the Ukrainian "pro-Russian separatists" have vehicle-mounted air defence
missile systems practically falling out their ass – among them the SA-11 Buk. The
aircraft shot down on Monday was an AN-26, at an altitude of 21,000 ft. MH-17 was following
an airlane at 33,000 ft; 12,000 ft higher than the AN-26, although the international community is
sure it was shot down by the "pro-Russia separatists" using Russian-supplied weaponry. Ukraine has
the Buk as well, of course, but Ukraine also said at one time that the rebels did not have any.
The plane crashed far enough from the Russian border that it would have been out of range of a Buk
fired from Russia at the moment it was hit. So…what happened? There is absolutely no doubt that
Ukraine has a weapon which could reach that altitude, the aircraft would have been out of range
from Russia, and you just got done saying the "pro-Russia separatists" didn't have a weapon which
could reach that high. That only leaves one contender.
We'll let you off that one, Daniel, because you plainly know as much about gaseous compounds
on Venus as you do about air defense systems. And that ignorance is just as plainly not confined
simply to air defense systems, as he goes on in the next paragraph to blabber that Russian tanks
and artillery poured over the border this past weekend vand advanced three kilometers into Ukraine.
That sounds like an invasion to me. Got any pictures? Nope. Any evidence at all? Nope. Just alarmist
twaddle to stir up the red-meat crowd.
Who the hell is Daniel Bilak, you may be wondering. As was I. According to the one-line bio at
the bottom of this tapestry of mendacious blather, he is "an advisor to the Governor of Donetsk
Oblast". The absentee governor, that'd be, who was appointed by Kiev to run the restive region and
has since fled after being driven out. But that's not the end of the Daniel Bilak story; no, indeed.
He's also the managing partner at CMS Cameron
McKenna LLC in Kiev, and has extensive experience advising clients on legal risk in international
oil and gas development, among other things. Between 1995 and 2006 he was a senior United Nations
Development Program governance expert, and has also been General Counsel for Emtec, a Canadian high-tech.
Except for his rudimentary schooling, he was educated in Canada at McGill University, Montreal.
He is an internationalist who is about as Ukrainian as a hockey stick. I don't know where he learned
to make up shit like that, but I devoutly hope it was not Montreal.
Here's a tip, Dan, for free. Stick to lying about how many women you've slept with and how big
the fish you catch are. Men at least will be willing to let those pass without comment, because
everybody lies about those.
"We saw this phenomenon in 2002-03 as nearly the entire Washington press corps clambered onboard
President George W. Bush's propaganda bandwagon into an aggressive war against Iraq. That pattern almost
repeated itself last summer when a similar rush to judgment occurred around a sarin gas attack outside
Damascus, Syria, on Aug. 21. Though the evidence was murky, there was a stampede to assume that the
Assad government was behind the attack. While blaming the Syrian army, the U.S. press ignored the possibility
that the attack was a provocation committed by radical jihadist rebels who were hoping that U.S. air
power could turn the tide of the war in their favor." Rather than carefully weigh the complex evidence,
the State Department and Secretary of State John Kerry tried to spur President Obama into a quick decision
to bomb Syrian government targets. Kerry delivered a belligerent speech on Aug. 30 and the administration
released what it called a "Government Assessment" supposedly proving the case. But this four-page white
paper contained no verifiable evidence supporting its accusations and it soon became clear that the
report had excluded dissents that some U.S. intelligence analysts would have attached to a more formal
paper prepared by the intelligence community.
Exclusive: President Obama and the State Department's "anti-diplomats" are fanning
flames of anger against Russia after the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over Ukraine.
But some U.S. intelligence analysts doubt the popular "blame-the-Russians" scenario, reports Robert
Parry.
Despite doubts within the U.S. intelligence community, the Obama administration and the
mainstream U.S. news media are charging off toward another rush to judgment blaming Ukrainian rebels
and the Russian government for the shoot-down of a Malaysia Airlines plane, much as occurred last
summer regarding a still-mysterious sarin gas attack in Syria.
In both cases, rather than let independent investigators sort out the facts, President Barack
Obama's ever-aggressive State Department and the major U.S. media simply accepted that the designated
villains of those two crises – Bashar al-Assad in Syria and Russian President Vladimir Putin on
Ukraine – were the guilty parties. Yet, some U.S. intelligence analysts dissented from both snap
conventional wisdoms.
Regarding the shoot-down of the Malaysian jetliner on Thursday, I'm told that some CIA analysts
cite U.S. satellite reconnaissance photos suggesting that the anti-aircraft missile that brought
down Flight 17 was fired by Ukrainian troops from a government battery, not by ethnic Russian rebels
who have been resisting the regime in Kiev since elected President Viktor Yanukovych was overthrown
on Feb. 22.
According to a source briefed on the tentative findings, the soldiers manning the battery appeared
to be wearing Ukrainian uniforms and may have been drinking, since what looked like beer bottles
were scattered around the site. But the source added that the information was still incomplete and
the analysts did not rule out the possibility of rebel responsibility.
A contrary emphasis has been given to the Washington Post and other mainstream U.S. outlets.
On Saturday, the Post reported that "on Friday, U.S. officials said a preliminary intelligence assessment
indicated the airliner was blown up by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile fired by the separatists."
But the objectivity of the Obama administration, which has staunchly supported the coup regime,
is in question as are the precise reasons for its judgments.
Even before the Feb. 22 coup, senior administration officials, including Assistant Secretary
of State Victoria Nuland and U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt, were openly encouraging
protesters seeking the overthrow of Yanukovych. Nuland went so far as to pass out cookies to the
demonstrators and discuss with Pyatt who should be appointed once Yanukovych was removed.
After Yanukovych and his officials were forced to flee in the face of mass protests and violent
attacks by neo-Nazi militias, the State Department was quick to declare the new government "legitimate"
and welcomed Nuland's favorite, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, as the new prime minister.
As events have unfolded since then, including Crimea's secession to join Russia and bloody attacks
directed at ethnic Russians in Odessa and elsewhere, the Obama administration has consistently taken
the side of the Kiev regime and bashed Moscow.
And, since Thursday, when the Malaysian plane was shot down killing 298 people, the Ukrainian
government and the Obama administration have pointed the finger of blame at the rebels and the Russian
government, albeit without the benefit of a serious investigation that is only now beginning.
One of the administration's points has been that the Buk anti-aircraft missile system, which
was apparently used to shoot down the plane, was "Russian made." But the point is rather silly since
nearly all Ukrainian military weaponry is "Russian made." Ukraine, after all, was part of the Soviet
Union until 1991 and has continued to use mostly Russian military equipment.
It's also not clear how the U.S. government ascertained that the missile was an SA-11 as opposed
to other versions of the Buk missile system.
Slanting the Case
Virtually everything that U.S. officials have said appears designed to tilt suspicions toward
the Russians and the rebels – and away from government forces. Referring ominously to the sophistication
of the SA-11, U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Samantha Power declared, "We cannot rule out
Russian technical assistance." But that phrasing supposedly means that the administration can't
rule it in either.
Still, in reading between the lines of the mainstream U.S. press accounts, it's possible to see
where some of the gaps are regarding the supposed Russian hand in Thursday's tragedy. For instance,
the Post's Craig Whitlock
reported that Air Force Gen. Philip M. Breedlove, U.S. commander of NATO forces in Europe, said
last month that "We have not seen any of the [Russian] air-defense vehicles across the border yet."
Since these Buk missile systems are large and must be transported on trucks, it would be
difficult to conceal their presence from U.S. aerial surveillance which has been concentrating intensely
on the Ukraine-Russia border in recent months.
The Post also reported that "Rear Adm. John Kirby, the Pentagon press secretary, said defense
officials could not point to specific evidence that an SA-11 surface-to-air missile system had been
transported from Russia into eastern Ukraine."
In other words, the mystery is still not solved. It may be that the rebels – facing heavy bombardment
from the Ukrainian air force – convinced the Russians to provide more advanced anti-aircraft weapons
than the shoulder-fired missiles that the rebels have used to bring down some Ukrainian military
planes.
It's possible, too, that a rebel detachment mistook the civilian airliner for a military plane
or even that someone in the Russian military launched the fateful rocket at the plane heading toward
Russian airspace.
But both the Russian government and the rebels dispute those scenarios. The rebels say they don't
have missiles that can reach the 33,000-foot altitude of the Malaysian airliner. Besides denying
a hand in the tragedy, the Russians claim that the Ukrainian military did have Buk anti-aircraft
systems in eastern Ukraine and that the radar of one battery was active on the day of the crash.
The Russian Defense Ministry stated that "The Russian equipment detected throughout July 17 the
activity of a Kupol radar, deployed as part of a Buk-M1 battery near Styla [a village some 30 kilometers
south of Donetsk]," according to
an RT
report.
So, the other alternative remains in play, that a Ukrainian military unit – possibly a poorly
supervised bunch – fired the missile intentionally or by accident. Why the Ukrainian military would
intentionally have aimed at a plane flying eastward toward Russia is hard to comprehend, however.
A Propaganda Replay?
But perhaps the larger point is that both the Obama administration and the U.S. press corps should
stop this pattern of rushing to judgments. It's as if they're obsessed with waging "information
warfare" – i.e., justifying hostilities toward some adversarial nation – rather than responsibly
informing the American people.
We saw this phenomenon in 2002-03 as nearly the entire Washington press corps clambered onboard
President George W. Bush's propaganda bandwagon into an aggressive war against Iraq. That pattern
almost repeated itself last summer when a similar rush to judgment occurred around a sarin gas attack
outside Damascus, Syria, on Aug. 21.
Though the evidence was murky, there was a stampede to assume that the Assad government was behind
the attack. While blaming the Syrian army, the U.S. press ignored the possibility that the attack
was a provocation committed by radical jihadist rebels who were hoping that U.S. air power could
turn the tide of the war in their favor.
Rather than carefully weigh the complex evidence, the State Department and Secretary of State
John Kerry tried to spur President Obama into a quick decision to bomb Syrian government targets.
Kerry delivered a belligerent speech on Aug. 30 and the administration released what it called a
"Government Assessment" supposedly proving the case.
But this four-page white paper contained no verifiable evidence supporting its accusations and
it soon became clear that the report had excluded dissents that some U.S. intelligence analysts
would have attached to a more formal paper prepared by the intelligence community.
Despite the war hysteria then gripping Official Washington, President Obama rejected war at the
last moment and – with the help of Russian President Putin – was able to negotiate a resolution
of the crisis in which Assad surrendered Syria's chemical weapons while still denying a hand in
the sarin gas attack.
The mainstream U.S. press, especially the New York Times, and some non-governmental organizations,
such as Human Rights Watch, continued pushing the theme of the Syrian government's guilt. HRW and
the Times teamed up for a major story that purported to show the flight paths of two sarin-laden
missiles vectoring back to a Syrian military base 9.5 kilometers away.
For a time, this report was treated as the slam-dunk evidence proving the case against Assad,
until it turned out that only one of the rockets carried sarin and the maximum range of the one
that did have sarin was only about two kilometers.
Despite knowing these weaknesses in the case, President Obama stood by his State Department hawks
by reading a speech to the UN General Assembly on Sept. 24 in which he declared: "It's an insult
to human reason and to the legitimacy of this institution to suggest that anyone other than the
regime carried out this attack."
In watching Obama's address, I was struck by how casually he lied. He knew better than
almost anyone that some of his senior intelligence analysts were
among those doubting the Syrian government's guilt. Yet, he suggested that anyone who wasn't
onboard the propaganda train was crazy.
Since then, investigative journalist Seymour Hersh has
revealed other evidence indicating that the sarin attack may indeed have been a rebel provocation
meant to push Obama over the "red line" that he had drawn about not tolerating chemical weapons
use.
Now, we are seeing a repeat performance in which Obama understands the doubts about the identity
of who fired the missile that brought down the Malaysian airliner but is pushing the suspicions
in a way designed to whip up animosity toward Russia and President Putin.
Obama may think this is a smart play because he can posture as tough when many of his political
enemies portray him as weak. He also buys himself some P.R. protection in case it turns out that
the ethnic Russian rebels and/or the Russian military do share the blame for the tragedy. He can
claim to have been out front in making the accusations.
But there is a dangerous downside to creating a public hysteria about nuclear-armed Russia. As
we have seen already in Ukraine, events can spiral out of control in unpredictable ways.
Assistant Secretary Nuland and other State Department hawks probably thought they were building
their careers when they encouraged the Feb. 22 coup – and they may well be right about advancing
their status in Official Washington at least. But they also thawed out long-frozen animosities between
the "ethnically pure" Ukrainians in the west and the ethnic Russians in the east.
Those tensions – many dating back to World War II and before – have now become searing hatreds
with hundreds of dead on both sides. The nasty, little Ukrainian civil war also made Thursday's
horror possible.
But even greater calamities could lie ahead if the State Department's "anti-diplomats" succeed
in reigniting the Cold War. The crash of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 should be a warning about
the dangers of international brinkmanship.
Investigative reporter Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories for The Associated
Press and Newsweek in the 1980s. You can buy his new book, America's Stolen Narrative, either
in
print here or as an e-book (from
Amazon and
barnesandnoble.com). For a limited time, you also can order Robert Parry's trilogy on the Bush
Family and its connections to various right-wing operatives for only $34. The trilogy includes
America's Stolen Narrative. For details on this offer,
click here.
Global leaders rounded on
Vladimir Putin on Saturday night as armed separatists continued to block international inspectors
attempting to identify and repatriate bodies at the Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash site in eastern
Ukraine.
Amid reports that pro-Russia
rebels accused of shooting down the plane had removed corpses themselves and were looting credit
cards and other possessions belonging to some of the 298 victims, Mark Rutte, the Dutch prime minister,
said that Putin had "one last chance to show he means to help [rescuers recover the bodies]".
Rutte vented his anger following what he called a "very intense" conversation with the Russian
president. Referring to allegations that bodies of the passengers, including 193 Dutch nationals,
were being treated with contempt and allowed to rot at the scene, he said: "I was shocked at the
pictures of utterly disrespectful behaviour at this tragic spot. It's revolting."
And here's the spin war verdict: the current Malaysia Airlines tragedy - the second in four months
- is "terrorism" perpetrated by "pro-Russian separatists", armed by Russia, and Vladimir Putin is
the main culprit. End of story. Anyone who believes otherwise, shut up.
Why? Because the CIA said so. Because Hillary "We came, we saw, he died" Clinton said so. Because
batshit crazy Samantha "R2P" Power said so - thundering at the UN, everything duly printed by the
neo-con infested Washington Post. [1]
Because Anglo-American corporate media - from CNN to Fox (who tried to buy Time Warner, which
owns CNN) - said so. Because the President of the United States (POTUS) said so. And mostly because
Kiev had vociferously said so in the first place.
Right off the bat they were all lined up - the invariably hysterical reams of "experts" of the
"US intelligence community" literally foaming at their palatial mouths at "evil" Russia and "evil"
Putin; intel "experts" who could not identify a convoy of gleaming white Toyotas crossing the Iraqi
desert to take Mosul. And yet they have already sentenced they don't need to look any further, instantly
solving the MH17 riddle.
It doesn't matter that President Putin has stressed the MH17 tragedy must be investigated objectively.
And "objectively" certainly does not mean that fictional "international community" notion construed
by Washington - the usual congregation of pliable vassals/patsies.
And what about Carlos?
A simple
search at reveals that MH17 was in fact diverted 200 kilometers north from the usual flight
path taken by Malaysia Airlines in the previous days - and plunged right in the middle of a war
zone. Why? What sort of communication MH17 received from Kiev air control tower?
Kiev has been mute about it. Yet the answer would be simple, had Kiev released the Air Traffic
Control recording of the tower talking to flight MH17; Malaysia did it after flight MH370 disappeared
forever.
It won't happen; SBU security confiscated it. So much for getting an undoctored explanation on
why MH17 was off its path, and what the pilots saw and said before the explosion.
The Russian Defense Ministry, for its part, has confirmed that a Kiev-controlled Buk anti-aircraft
missile battery was operational near the MH17's crash. Kiev has deployed several batteries of Buk
surface-to-air missile systems with at least 27 launchers; these are all perfectly capable of bringing
down jets flying at 33,000 ft.
Radiation from a battery's Kupol radar, deployed as part of a Buk-M1 battery near Styla (a village
some 30km south of Donetsk) was detected by the Russian military. According to the ministry, the
radar could be providing tracking information to another battery which was at a firing distance
from MH17's flight path. The tracking radar range on the Buk system is a maximum of 50 miles. MH17
was flying at 500 mph. So assuming the "rebels" had an operational Buk and did it, they would have
had not more than five minutes to scan all the skies above, all possible altitudes, and then lock
on. By then they would have known that a cargo plane could not possibly be flying that high. For
evidence supporting the possibility of a false flag,
check here.
And then there's the curiouser and curiouser story of Carlos, the Spanish air traffic controller
working at Kiev's tower, who was following MH17 in real time. For some Carlos is legit - not a cipher;
for others, he's never even worked in Ukraine. Anyway he tweeted like mad. His account - not accidentally
- has been shut down, and he has disappeared; his friends are now desperately looking for him. I
managed to read all his tweets in Spanish when the account was still online - and now copies and
an English translation are available.
These are some of his crucial tweets:
"The B777 was escorted by 2 Ukrainian fighter jets minutes before disappearing from radar (5.48
pm)"
"If the Kiev authorities want to admit the truth 2 fighter jets were flying very close a
few minutes before the incident but did not shoot down the airliner (5.54)"
"As soon as the Malaysia Airlines B777 disappeared the Kiev military authority informed
us of the shooting down. How did they know? (6.00)"
"Everything has been recorded on radar. For those that don't believe it, it was taken down
by Kiev; we know that here (in traffic control) and the military air traffic control know it
too (7.14)"
"The Ministry of the Interior did know that there were fighter aircraft in the area, but
the Ministry of Defense didn't. (7.15)"
"The military confirm that it was Ukraine, but it is not known where the order came from.
(7.31)"
Carlos's assessment (a partial compilation of his tweets is collected here http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/
): the missile was fired by the Ukraine military under orders of the Ministry of Interior - NOT
the Ministry of Defense. Security matters at the Ministry of the Interior happen to be under Andriy
Parubiy, who was closely working alongside US neo-cons and Banderastan neo-nazis on Maidan.
Assuming Carlos is legit, the assessment makes sense. The Ukrainian military are divided between
Chocolate king President Petro Poroshenko - who would like a détente with Russia essentially to
advance his shady business interests - and Saint Yulia Timoshenko, who's on the record advocating
genocide of ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine. US neo-cons and US "military advisers" on the ground
are proverbially hedging their bets, supporting both the Poroshenko and Timoshenko factions.
So who profits?
The key question remains, of course, cui bono? Only the terminally brain dead believe
shooting a passenger jet benefits the federalists in Eastern Ukraine, not to mention the Kremlin.
As for Kiev, they'd have the means, the motive and the window of opportunity to pull it off -
especially after Kiev's militias have been effectively routed, and were in retreat, in the Donbass;
and this after Kiev remained dead set on attacking and bombing the population of Eastern Ukraine
even from above. No wonder the federalists had to defend themselves.
And then there's the suspicious timing. The MH17 tragedy happened two days after the BRICS announced
an antidote to the IMF and the World Bank, bypassing the US dollar. And just as Israel "cautiously"
advances its new invasion/slow motion ethnic cleansing of Gaza. Malaysia, by the way, is the seat
of the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission, which has found Israel guilty of crimes against humanity.
Washington, of course, does profit. What the Empire of Chaos gets in this case is a
ceasefire (so the disorganized, battered Kiev militias may be resupplied); the branding of Eastern
Ukrainians as de facto "terrorists" (as Kiev, Dick Cheney-style, always wanted); and unlimited mud
thrown over Russia and Putin in particular until Kingdom Come. Not bad for a few minutes' work.
As for NATO, that's Christmas in July.
From now on, it all depends on Russian intelligence. They have been surveying/tracking everything
that happens in Ukraine 24/7. In the next 72 hours, after poring over a lot of tracking data, using
telemetry, radar and satellite tracking, they will know which type of missile was launched, where
from, and even produce communications from the battery that launched it. And they will have
access to forensic evidence.
Unlike Washington - who already knows everything, with no evidence whatsoever (remember 9/11?)
- Moscow will take its time to know the basic journalistic facts of what, where, and who, and engage
on proving the truth and/or disproving Washington's spin.
The historical record shows Washington simply won't release data if it points to a missile
coming from its Kiev vassals. The data may even point to a bomb planted on MH17, or mechanical failure
- although that's unlikely. If this was a terrible mistake by the Novorossiya rebels, Moscow will
have to reluctantly admit it. If Kiev did it, the revelation will be instantaneous. Anyway we already
know the hysterical Western response, no matter what; Russia is to blame.
Putin is more than correct when he stressed this tragedy would not have happened if Poroshenko
had agreed to extend a cease-fire, as Merkel, Hollande and Putin tried to convince him in late June.
At a minimum, Kiev is already guilty because they are responsible for safe passage of flights in
the airspace they - theoretically - control.
But all that is already forgotten in the fog of war, tragedy and hype. As for Washington's hysterical
claims of credibility, I leave you with just one number: Iran Air 655.
Rescue workers have recovered the second black box from the
Malaysian Airlines passenger airplane that crashed in eastern Ukraine, Reuters reported citing
an eyewitness Friday.
Earlier a spokesman from the Vostok Battalion said that they had found several objects that could
be black boxes near the town of Torez where the aircraft crashed.
A Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777 flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur crashed near the town of
Torez in the Donetsk Region on Thursday. There were 283 passengers and 15 crew members on board,
none of them survived.
Ukrainian President
Petro Poroshenko said earlier on Friday one flight recorder from the plane had allegedly been
found by local militia who might take it to Russia in an attempt to "hide all traces."
Kiev blamed independence supporters in the turbulent Donetsk region for downing the passenger
plane with a surface-to-air missile. Militia forces said they had no missile systems that could
hit a target flying at an altitude of 10,000 meters.
Ukraine has repeatedly accused Russia of supplying arms to resistance forces in the east of Ukraine,
although there has been no evidence to this effect.
Ukrainian authorities and Malaysia Airlines are investigating the incident.
Course Boeing over Ukraine has changed. Who ordered this? Who in General has launched a
war zone? Have you heard anything from Ukraine as an explanation for this? No, of course. But
these explanations should be required.
As the wreckage of the plane were together in one heap? If the plane was shot at a height
of 10 kilometers, the debris would fly for miles. And they fell in a heap.
How is it that many personal belongings of passengers was untouched? What new passports
were demonstrated by "militias" (or whatever it was?) on camera in a few hours after the disaster?
Why shell hit the same spot twice? (the same airline within a few months of becoming a victim
of a mysterious catastrophe).
Why there were no US (or one) American citizen on board ? This is among other things gives
Americans reason to investigate the disaster. And this is when the investigation "softens" the
guilt of the performers of the American side (if we are talking about the bombing of the CIA)
- "its something we didn't blow up".
Is it possible for a layman to operate "Buk" air defense system? Because generally the aircraft
should be clearly identified on the radar screen of such system. Well, for example, display
units on old defense systems monitor the movement of all purposes, and it is clear that any
target, flying from Europe, is 100% civilian aircraft.
If we assume that it was "militias" who launch the rocket, then to what group those men
belong? Is there a chance that hit militias "mole", i.e. there was a planned sabotage? It is
obvious that the attack is extremely disadvantageous for Russia, militias and extremely advantageous
to the United States and the puppet Ukrainian government.
Was there in fact this "Spanish air controller"? Or this is dezo. Who is he, what is his
name? Why Spanish? In Kiev, a lot of Spanish managers and difficult to identify?
Where are black boxes? What is their fate?
Did the militia has operational middle range air defense systems? Buk was captures in mid
June. why it was not used before if it was operational? Why it was not use for defense of Donetsk
from air bombardment?
What about professionals who can manage them? How militia can find them ? Did Russians send
their staff to operate BUK. If so they are professionals and can't hit passenger airliners.
They are not Americans or Ukrainians who have such a history.
How lame was the American satellite evidence that supposedly can read car registration plates?
Why they do not provide us with the conclusive evidence? Where is this video of the system that
launched the rocket? How can you determine from which zone Ukrainian or militia has deployed
rocket complexes? Are distance between Ukrainian Missile systems and militia missile systems
is measured kilometers or tens of kilometers?
Why is there no data from the Russian radars? Russian military were on high alert
at this period and monitor the entire territory of the military conflict. Was monitoring
suspended ? Hardly. Then where is it? Where the data is, for example, about the exact altitude
of the liner at the moment of missile strike?
Militiamen who arrived at the scene previously said that putrid smell of some of the victims
of the disaster was "stale". Was it really so?
Were Ukraine fighters in the air in the vicinity of the aircraft? That is, Ukranian standard
raction "TSE ne mi" (it's not me) does not surprise anybody but those planes can't be hidden.
Is there any evidence of present of Ukrainian fighter in the vicinity?
Why did Putin called Obama? What did they say? What the phone call pre-scheduled and on
different topic ?
What happened with the discussion of the situation in the UN? Why they did not force Kiev
to give all the evidence immediately.
Perhaps most questions have simple answers. But I would like to get answers to them.
Moscow notes large number of questions to Kiev about Buk systems in Boeing accident
"The Ukrainian authorities are busy concocting all kinds of nonsense and insinuations",
the source in Kremlin said
MOSCOW, July 19, 17:34 /ITAR-TASS/. There are too many questions to the Ukrainian authorities
about their Buk air defense systems and warplanes in the area of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777
jetliner crash in Ukraine, a source in the Russian power structures said on Saturday, July 19.
"Unfortunately, instead of taking concrete measures to investigate the causes of the accident,
specifically to ensure the security of evidence, the Ukrainian authorities, primarily the Security
Council, are busy concocting all kinds of nonsense and insinuations, putting forth sweeping
accusations and unconfirmed leads which are senseless to comment on," the source said.
He noted that "there are already too many questions" to the Ukrainian authorities "about
their Buks and warplanes in the area of the accident".
"They must begin a large-scale investigation of all activities of the Air Force, the National
Guard and other armed structures operating in Ukraine, which are countless and which are subordinated
to no one. There are lots of things to investigate there," the source said.
"He denied that the rebels possess the SA-17 Buk air-defense as Kiev alleges.
However, the Associated Press reported that a similar launcher was seen by the agency's journalists
near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne earlier Thursday. The Buk missile system can fire
missiles up to an altitude of 22,000 meters (72,000 feet), AP said."
This report will be repeated ad nauseum. pinning the blame on the Donbass forces.
I think that any analysis of the events surrounding the downing of MH17 should begin with the
following admission: no matter what, the AngloZionists will blame Russia. Just like 9/11,
there is no way, no amount of evidence, which would affect the unanimous chorus of Imperial doubleplusgoodthinkers
in their conclusion that obviously it could only have been "the Russians". So don't expect to come
across The Proof which will prove that the Empire is lying because if 9/11 proved anything it is
that even hard, undeniable truth can be easily ignored by the elites and their media.
Second, I have to begin my "kind of analysis" with the following disclaimer: my information on
air defense issues is about 25-30 years old which means that not only could my memory fail me, but
things might have changed a great deal since I last was exposed to them. Finally, the place
from which I observed air defense happening was a rather peculiar one: from a underground army command
center's air defense room which included a live fused (civilian+military) image of all the air traffic
over an entire continent. I never got anywhere near a SAM site in my life, and I sure have
never seen one being operated. Still, there are a few things which I know which might be relevant
to this case.
If I got something wrong, or if things have recently changed, PLEASE CORRECT ME.
How air defense normally works
The control of airspace is done by two completely different networks: a civilian and a military
one. The civilian one is the one people think of when they hear ATC (air traffic control).
These are the folks who manage flight plans, who talk to pilots on different altitudes, who track
the aircraft during the flight and make sure that there is enough distance between them. Depending
on an airplane's altitude and what it is doing, it remains in contact with different ATCs but they
all work together. One more thing: the radars used by civilian ATC are very primitive, all
they can "see" is a bearing. What helps them is that all aircraft have a so-called "transponder"
to transmit a special message which indicates their ID, speed, altitude and course. The ATC
then superimposes that info on his screen to get a pretty accurate idea of what the aircraft is
doing. The important thing about all this is that the military is normally patched straight
into that data and that it can use it to supplement the data military radars acquire by themselves.
In other words, a military air defense network "sees" and "knows" everything that a civilians ATC
knows and sees.
The task of military air defenses is dramatically different from the civilians ATC: the military
expects to deal with aircraft who will do their utmost to remain undetected and once detected, the
military air defense network has to figure out a way to hopefully shoot-down the enemy aircraft.
As a result, the kind of technology used by the military is very different.
The first "layer" of a military air defense network will be long range detection radars.
Their task is to try to detect an airborne target as far as possible. Although one type of radar
can do this alone, typically data from different radars (including airborne ones) is fused to create
a single picture. Already at this point the air defense command post will be patched in into
the civilians ATC and it will have all the flight plans, airline names, aircraft types and expected
flight routes. The air defense command post's first task is to separate civilians (considered
neutral) from possible hostiles. These 99% of flights are routine and regular, the folks in
charge have a very good idea of what a normal sky looks like, they see the scheduled civilians aircraft
doing their thing and they easily track them. Some military radars even have the capability
to detect the kind of aircraft they are seeing on their radar simply by analyzing the radar signal
bounced back (typically by the aircraft's engine). If a target is ambiguous, the military
can use a very different type of radar to track that target: this target acquisition radar will
operate on a different frequency, it will have a much narrower beam, and it will provide the operator
with much more info about the aircraft even if the aircraft does not have a working transponder
(which would be most unusual for a civilian airliner). Again, modern armed forces have the
means to fuse the data from any different radar types (including airborne radars) to calculate a
solution to identify and track a target. The next step is the send a special signal, like
a password, to check if aircraft might not be one of your own. Civilian aircraft are not capable
of this kind if "electronic handshake". Finally, if the military air defense command post believes
that the target his hostile, it selects the best radar and missile combination to engage the target.
Typically, this is done yet again by a highly specialized radar which sends a burst of energy to
the target which is reflected by the airborne target and which is then caught either by a ground-based
radar or even by the missile itself (that is called TVM track-via-missile) which then can guide
itself to the target without emitting any signal (alternatively, the missile can use his own active
guidance system which sends and receives radar signals). Advanced air defense networks, such
as Russia's, can automatically chose the best radar for each task, the missile most likely to hit,
the number of missiles needed for the task, the most threatening target, the mode of engagement,
etc. These systems are highly integrated and highly automated, which also means
that they are much safer than more primitive systems (more about that later). They
are also highly redundant which in practical terms means that if, say, in an ideal environment a
missile system like the Buk M1 is just one part of a much bigger network of systems, it can also
operate almost autonomously if needed (again, more about that later). Now we need to look
at the "who had what" on the day of the tragedy. First, let's look at
The Russikies and their capabilities.
While, obviously, they don't share with me the details of their moves, it is a pretty safe guess
to say that, especially considering the war going on right across the border, the Russians literally
had it all on that day: civilians radars, of course, but also long range radars (ground based and
airborne), lots of advanced advanced surveillance (long range detection) radars, lots of tracking
and fire control radars numerous radio and signal interception stations. Since all the data
from this integrated network of systems could be fused at the higher level command posts we can
safely assume that the Russian side had something like "20/20 radar vision": just about as good
as it can get. There is no way the Russian shot down this aircraft by mistake.
What about the Ukrainians?
Here the reality is dramatically different: almost all of the Ukrainian air defense equipment
is hopelessly outdated, far in excess of its normal shelf life. The Ukie air defense systems
have not trained with live firing for dacades. Unlike the Russian who use contracted professionals
on all crucial levels, the Ukies are known to be using conscripts simply due to a lack of funds.
To illustrate the bloodly mess the Ukie air defenses are, it is enough to recall here how gross
incompetence, mismanagement and outdated equipment resulted in the downing of the Siberi a clear
signal identifying the aircraft. Let me add here that you can purchase special receivers and
antennas which can receive transponder signals on the market and that they are comparatively cheap
(1000 bucks range I think). Lastly, but still an option, a Ukie air defense operator could
have simply lifted the phone, called the ATC and asked who such and such aircraft was. And
even without that: when you see an aircraft flying right around 550 knots at 10'000m in a straight
line in a civilian air traffic corridor, you can kinda guess that this is not a military aircraft
on a bombing run. So regardless of the state of disrepair of the Ukie air defense forces,
there is just no way that they could have mistaken this airliner for a Russian military jet flying
on a combat mission. Oh, and did I mention MH17 was flying on west to east course, not
from Russia, but towards Russia? Bottom line here for me is this: there is no way the Ukies
could have shot down this aircraft by mistake.
The Novorussians now
Well, here again we truly have a dramatically different picture emerging. First, the Novorussians
have no ATC. Second, 99% of their air defense systems are either MANPADs (man portable) or
heavy machine guns. I did see footage of some kind of air defense radar and command post,
but I suspect that this was simply one surveillance radar left by the Ukies. No data fusion
here, no integrated air defense network, no long range missiles. Except for the few Buk M-1s
which they did get as a trophy when they took control a Ukie base a month or so ago. The fact
is that I am still unsure whether they really got anything operable systems at all (the Ukies claim
that their soldiers had disabled them, but that might not be true). But we probably have to
assume that they got their hands on a least one operational vehicle with its own surveillance radar,
engagement radar and missiles. As I mentioned earlier, modern states would integrate the Buk
into a full air defense network, but since in war time this might not be possible, it is possible
for the Buk to detect, acquire and engage a target all by itself. Frankly, I find it very
unlikely that the systems the Novorussians got their hands on would have been operational.
I find it even more unlikely that they would also have the people to operate them. Still,
just to cover our bases, we have to assume that with Russian aid these systems could have been more
or less fixed, and that a crew could also have been sent from Russia. Unlikely? Far fetched?
Yes. But, alas, not impossible.
Still, there is the flight profile issue. The real threat for Novorussians comes from close
air support (low level) and from reconnaissance (medium level) aircraft. Not those flying
at 10'000 meters. Also, a Boeing 777 is much larger than an An-26, Su-25, Su-24 or even Su-27.
Also, ask yourself, IF you had such a capable and advanced air defense system as the Buk, would
you waste it on a poorly identified target? Probably not. Still, I think that at least
in theory the Nororussians could have shot down this aircraft. Now let's look at the famous
Cui bono?
Well here at least the reply is unambiguous: only the junta in Kiev could have benefited
from this tragedy. For the Russians and the Novorussians, this is something between a real
pain and a disaster. Just when the Novorussians were winning without any overt help from Moscow
and just when Moscow was gradually successful in denouncing the human costs of Poroshenko's murderous
policies - suddenly the entire planet focuses just on one downed aircraft and the imperial corporate
media blames it all on Russia. As for Poroshenko, this disaster is God-sent: not only has
everybody forgotten that much promised "surprise" turned out to be a disaster, he can now kill scores
of Novorussians with no risks of that being reported in the corporate media. Not only that,
but that gives the Ukies a golden excuse to ask for ""protection" from their "aggressive and threatening
neighbor". Again, the only party who can benefit from this disaster is the junta.
So, in summary, we have this list of candidates:
1) A deliberate or mistaken Russian attack: superlatively unlikely
2) A mistaken Ukrainian attack: most unlikely
3) A deliberate Ukrainian attack: most likely
4) A mistaken Novorussian attack: possible
5) A deliberate Novorussian attack: most unlikely
I don't know about you, but to me #3 is the one blinking red.
Now let's look at some of the crazy rumors which we have heard today.
a) one or two Ukie military aircraft shadowing MH17 before it was shot down.
b) at least one parachute after MH17 was shot down.
c) an air-to-air attack.
d) an attempt as shooting down Putin's aircraft.
I don't know if any of these above are true, but what I do notice is that all of them, if true,
only 'fit' scenario #3: a deliberate Ukie attack. Nobody claimed that MH17 was shadowed by
Russian fighters and the Novorussians don't have any anyway (they only have one Su-25). If
somebody was shot down (the parachutes) then it was most definitely not a Russian Air Force aircraft.
Ditto for an air-to-air attack. As for shooting down Putin's aircraft, this seems far fetched
to me, even for the crazy freak show in power in Kiev. However, I would not put that kind
of trick passed Uncle Sam who can always blame it on the Ukies. What is sure is that the US
wants Putin dead. So maybe?
The current version of the Novorussians is an interesting one: they say that a Ukie Su-25 shot
down MH17 and that they then shot down the Ukie Su-25. Actually, this is not the most unlikely
possibility. Of course, this also means that if the Novorussians attempted to shoot down a
Ukie Su-25 they might have missed and the missile might have continued towards the MH17 especially
if its radar had gone active. So a Novorussian mistake is still a "possible", at least in
my mind. If, and this is a big IF, this was a Novorussian mistake, I don't feel that
we can blame them very much. The one undeniable fact is that this disaster happened in Ukrainian
ATC space and they, the Ukie ATC, had the primary responsibility to keep MH17 in a safe air corridor
and not the Novorussians who had neither the technical means nor the legal obligation to do so.
Also, just a few days ago the Ukies had announced that they were closing the airspace over the combat
zone to an altitude of 9600m (if I remember correctly). If the Novorussians heard this, they
could have easily concluded that MH17 was a military recon flight flying towards Donestk from Dnepropetrovsk.
Besides, I am not at all sure that the radar on the Buk M1 can differentiate between 9'600m and
10'000m or, if it can, that the operator would have been aware of the difference this could mean.
Again, keep in mind my caveat above. I am not, repeat, not a specialist of air defenses.
But I did do some air defense and monitoring work in my past, and on the basis of that experience
and of what I have heard so far is here my guess:
I would say that at this point in time I am 90% in favor of the deliberate Ukie attack
theory. The remaining 10% I would give to the mistaken Novorussian attack version.
I am more than willing to change my mind if I get new facts.
Stuff we should look for
First, the black boxes. Even when hit, most pilots have the time to say something and that
something is usually recorded and radioed. Depending on the frequency used, that "something"
should have been heard by PLENTY of receivers, not only the Ukie ATC. But at the very least,
we should have the voice and data recorders from the last minutes of MH17.
Second, Russian radar tracks. That is a problem. The Russian military is one of the
worst offenders in terms of secrecy and short of a direct order by Putin, they are likely to be
most uncooperative. Still, these guys probably have it all: ATC chatter, pilot messages, transporter
signal, exact location of the missile(s) launched, point of impact, etc. As I said, they most
likely had a 20/20 vision of the air space over Donetsk. The trick is to get them to share
it, especially with the corporate media and the "independent" experts all already clamoring that
the Russians are tampering with the flight recorders. Still, things are changing in Russia,
possibly after the PR disaster following the Soviet shooting down of
KAL 007 (which most definitely was a US spy mission and deliberate provocation), they are more
willing to share data. A spokesman for the Russian Air Force has already disclosed that they
had recorded the signals of a Ukie BukM1 battery surveillance radar at the moment of the tragedy.
He even identified the exact Ukie unit involved. Hopefully, as this scandal snowballs, the
Kremlin will order the Russian Air Force to make more data public. Not to convince Uncle Sam
and his EU minions, of course, but at least to convince the rest of the planet.
Speaking of Uncle Sam and his EU minions. They also know. The US and NATO maintains
a 24/7 surveillance of Ukie and Russian air space at least to the Urals, possibly even on the other
side (though I am not sure). I bet you that Obama was told who done it within 2 hours of the
tragedy happening. That info was probably shared with the Echelon countries, but not with
the rest of NATO, but even they probably know thanks to their own intelligence capability (Banderastan
is chock-full of EU spies not a single one of which was ever caught by the Ukie SBU since
independence!). So here again we have a 9/11 kind of situation: everybody knows, but nobody
will admit it.
The last question then
There is an obvious last question which we need to ask: if the Ukies did it, could they have
done so without the US knowing about it? The answer, in case anybody had any doubts about
this, is absolutely categorically and emphatically not. No way Jose, not this regime, not
one which is 110% dependent of, and submitted to, Uncle Sam. In other words, if this was a
deliberate Ukie attack, then this really was a deliberate US attack. Not quite a "false flag",
but a sneaky dirty trick, a longtime US specialty. The typical US way works like this: organized
and planned by Uncle Sam, paid for by the Saudis, executed by the Israelis. At least that
is the historical record for US dirty tricks. That is also most likely how 9/11 was done.
Why bring in 9/11 several times at the risk of infuriating the doubleplusgoodthinking crowd
yet again? No, not just for the heck of it, but to remind everybody that the folks who killed
3000+ people on 9/11 would not hesitate for a nanosecond to kill "only" 300 or so, especially if
the risk of getting caught is negligible, which in this case it is. If in the case of 9/11
it is the entire Establishment which by stupidity or by cowardice which was made an accomplice of
the crime, in this case the folks who did it will have the support of a rabidly russophobic Establishment
which will not care one bit about the truth as long as it allows it to further flame the flames
of hatred against Russia.
A provisional conclusion of sorts - Lasciate Ogni Speranza
This crime will never be properly investigated nor will the culprits ever be punished for it.
Oh sure, there will be plenty of books in the future who will reveal it all in minute details but,
as Michel Parenti always reminds us, history is not only written by victors, it is also written
by the elites, the oligarchs, the banking establishment, the 1%ers. If anything, 9/11 has
proven that our society is completely indifferent to facts and proof. Our society is ruled
by ideological dogma and political expediency. In the case of MH17 the accepted dogma is that
the Novorussians are the bad guys and the political expediency says that this latest crime cannot
be blamed on the "heroic Euro-Ukrainian freedom fighters" or, even less so, on Uncle Sam.
Just as I wrote this last sentence above, I decided to check
my favorite Imperial Mouthpiece
and, sure enough, I read this: "US President Barack Obama has said a surface-to-air missile fired
from a rebel-held area in east Ukraine brought down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17". See,
it is that simple! How needs flight recorders of radar tracks anyway?! If the US President
said so, then it is so. Any other interpretation is a criminal delusion bordering on terrorism.
Who needs proof when we got both Poroshenko and Obama saying that the Russikies did it?
I am disgusted beyond words by both of these ugly, evil, clowns.
Well, I hope that that some of you will have found the exercises above useful, regardless of
all my caveats. I wish my recollection of working with air defenses was better and I wish
my knowledge was not 25 year old. As always, this is the best I can do and I share it to you,
my friends, in the hope to resist the imperial propaganda machine the best I can. If there
are those amongst you who have a more recent and possibly more hands-on knowledge of these topics,
I beg them to share that knowledge with the rest of us.
100% Chance Ukrainian Kiev intentional directed the plane over that
path and lowered its flight path to 1000 m above prohibited space, AND (then 50% Ukrainians
shot it down OR 50% the Self Defense Forces shot it down thinking it was a Military Plane. )
In all cases, it is the Ukrainian Kiev failure to indicate that should be a complete no fly
zone. Now in return, I have seven apartments in Lugansk being shelled by massive Ukrainian Arty
attacks with the Ukrainians Lying Openly and claiming the LPR is shelling their own city.
Which mind you many of these LPR people are Lugansk Residents. Lugansk has a much larger
percentage of Lugansk residents then Donetsk. Non of the peole I know would ever shell Lugansk
willingly.
Frankly the decision to NOT have refugee camps for civilians in Ukrainian Territory says
it pretty much. The goal is to drive AS MANY of the people (civilians) as possible out of Eastern
Ukraine permanently.
Unfortunately for the Ukrainians, the officer staff of the DPR is significantly more competent
then the ATO forces. Fairly obvious. Yes, I wrote once or twice before. Need to visit Florida.
Anonymous, 19 July, 2014 00:00
What is happening with the offensive against junta? Was it all stopped because of this, evidently
Kiev's/CIA engineered, crime against the passengers of the Malaysian airline? There is absolutely
no news of any kind on this front. It seems to be like this is yet another layer of evil directed
at the anti-Nazi resistance of Novorossiya.
Sligo, 19 July, 2014 00:07
Spin isn't reality. This business will do nothing to change the facts on the ground.
I can pretty much guarantee that no popular Western crusade against Russia or the Eastern Separatists
will develop as a result of this. The civil war will grind on.
The self-generated media hysteria will accomplish nothing and in a week or so the MSM will
be off yipping and hooting at the newest bright and shiny thing.
Nobody will be prosecuted. Someday the facts may come out, but nobody but enthusiasts will
care.
Anonymous:
Another very, very simple question:
Why would pro-Russian fighters even target an aircraft flying at 33,000 ft. and clearly headed
into Russia which is only 20 something miles away.
Personally, I think this is in a realm of total impossibility.
123abc
I think it's safe to say that ultimately there won't be conclusive evidence about who is
responsible for the planecrash.
The positions at the UN security council remained unchanged. Russia's foes accused Novorussia
and/or Russia. Russia's friends remained neutral and insisted on impartial investigations. Given
that there won't be proof either way I think that ultimately the planecrash is not a gamechanger.
The long-term projects (Eurasia, BRICS) will continue. Short-term there will be more sanctions,
but they won't be life-threatening.
Russia has already successfully dealt with at least one such incident (Ghouta), so it is
experienced in maneuvering in such stressful situations on the diplomatic front, it also has
experience in doing sufficient propaganda work to fizzle out MSM hysteria. Sanctions will come,
but Europe didn't fall for Ghouta, so hopefully they will also not fall for the planaecrash
incident. My only concern is that there is a danger that the propaganda work may be overdone,
for example „Der Spiegel" is already portraying Putin as a crazy conspiracy theorist.
What we can expect is that the US increases weapons supply to the junta, maybe even overtly.
But I hope it won't really change anything substantial on the ground. Russia will have to be
more careful with supplying Donbass, but I think they will manage somehow.
The worst case is that someone from Novorussian Army mistakenly shot down the plane and that
undeniable proof comes out. Is that a gamechanger? I think only if Europe wants it to be.
The question is will Russia still be able to support Novorussia? I think yes, they will call
for the responsible to face punishment, there will be hysteria, but it could be concentrated
on one person, or a small group of persons. And a month or two after that everything will continue
like before.
JohnM
This whole "incident" has the same smell as the Syrian gas attack false flag.
There will likely be the same kind of bullshit that followed that one.
I agree that the Russian military should have ALL the information on this, especially
if Putin's plane had been in the air ANYWHERE near the area or ANYWHERE close to the time it
occurred.
Does any intelligent adult believe anything coming out of the Ukrainian Junta's propaganda
machine anymore?
Anonymous
Virgin Atlantic plane was in same area as MH17: Packed Heathrow-bound airliner was flying through
Ukrainian airspace at same time as Malaysia Airlines aircraft was shot out the sky
So how come the Novorussians decided to shoot at MH17, but at none of the 100s of others
before it?
There is no way Novorussians would see MH17 as anything other than one of the 100s of airliners
that have traversed their territory.
mijj said...
yeh .. presenting evidence won't change US Regime propaganda one iota. But, intelligent people
who are wondering will welcome anything that has basis in reality.
What matters more than convincing the US Regime leaders to face reality, is to convert the
people into basing their views on evidence rather than propaganda. Ie. the schism between the
Regime and it's people is in proportion to the difference between the propaganda and reality.
The US Regime rulers have a mindset where they think they can create a reality by controlling
information. But we're all embedded within reality, reality isn't a figment of the imagination
to be controlled by propaganda. we all have an instinct for when propaganda differs from reality
.. so, that instinct needs to be helped along by presentation of evidence whenever possible.
/rant
Mario Drumond said...
I am writing in Portuguese with English translation from Google. My comment disputes the
Saker in the following point: the important thing is not knowing who shot down the plane of
Malaysia but who put him where he was. And we know that Kiev was the guilty one of this. If
the resistance militias shot down, did the legitimate right of defense since it does not have
air force or information or air traffic control in the region and thus for them anything that
fly over their heads is the enemy attack. But if the forces of the coup regime did so, it is
a war crime as they have access to all information of air traffic in the region. It is known
that the coup regime of Kiev thinks about war crimes.
Thus, anyone who guided the aircraft passengers to the center of the fire, or has allowed
it drove there is to blame for the accident. I would think so if any of my loved ones were on
that plane.
DonbassBrussels said...
Saker thanks for this analysis.I do have a probably stupid question for you,but anyway.
I can't believe that MH has two fatal ''accidents''(one being this missile attack,but nobody
knows what happened to the other MH flight earlier in march).
The probabilities of the very same airline,with the very same type of boeing(777)having twice
in a such short period of time two fatal crash and or attacks,are near 0.000000000001 pct for
me.
I used to work in the airline industry,MH is not a bad company eventhough they are no Emirates
or or any other IATA legacy airline.
They don't have so many flights from Europe to KUL compared to their competitors.They must
have been targeted and chosen on purpose.
Do you think Malaysia could have a kind of conflict with the empire?And that maybe because
they did not get the RIGHT message(blackmail)with the first crash..we have a second attack over
Ukraine...and over the Donbass and indirectly against MH..very very very strange coincidence
no?
I'm not a conspiracy theorist fan at all,but I do have difficulties to believe that.
Like we say in french'faire d'une pierre deux coups'.The Empire(US/NATO/UE)having used this
flight for both aims,the first being to destroy the credibility of Russia/dpr once and for all,and
the second,a second attack on MH and or Malaysia for a reason we don't know?
Let' s note that the first MH flight involved China and this time it is Russia..two BRICS countries
and the two most and probably last ennemies resisting the anglozio empire.
What do you think about that?
Thanks coop.
nb: just thinking about a mossad or mercenaries possibility as the Oligarchs have very deep
connections in Israel and very deep pockets as well, eventhough they are quiet buzy in Gaza
for the moment.
But never know..
John-Albert said...
As several people have pointed out, the BUK was sent into the SE for some reason. And the
BUK is principally designed to shoot aircraft down. There are not yet SE aircraft. Only Ukes
and civilians. I think via Occam's razor we have it there. The BUK are *inappropriate* for SE
battle, period. So I conclude the Ukrainians moved the BUK into SE with the clear intention
of shooting a civilian airliner down and blame it on Russia, which they've managed to do. They
had that flight fly as low as possible, to make certain of the BUK success. Cui Bono + Occam
Razor convinces me.
Q said...
Collateral Damage
I find it far to early for anybody to blame any side.
First one assumes that as with any civilian death in a war-zone that it was unintended collateral
damage. To fly into a war-zone that has every day airplanes shot at is a risk no airline should
take if alternate routes are available.
At this stage nothing should be excluded. One may speak about probabilities - anybody who claims
to know what happened only creates suspicion on himself.
One more possibility would be that a bomb had been placed in the plane which was triggered either
by gps or radio-signal to explode over the conflict zone.
The story with a su-25 being the one who shot it down doesn't sound reasonable. Those planes
don't fly at 10000m and usually have very limited air to air capability. They normally carry
only air to ground weapons and are to slow to chase an airliner at 10000m/900+kmh anyway.
One can never exclude pure coincidence but two airplanes in a few month is stressing chance
to the limit. Especially as many predicted that MH370 would reappear in a false flag. MH17 is
a bit like seeing a ghost plane.
Anyway lets hope that is not another
RMS Lusitania.
keyhoti1 said...
I got some information on the Buk system.
It requires a minimum of four vehicles - five if extra missiles are carried, or the launch
vehicle is not loaded.
The three other vehicles are for detection, aiming and control.
A highly trained crew of 15-17 personnel is required, so it all points to the Junta eh, given
all else.
Larchmonter445
On the way to my advanced degree in Communications I studied Mass Communications and Propaganda.
An overarching Law of Communication came from Goebbels.
"He who says it first is right."
Hitler's Basic Principles of Communication were simple.
Avoid abstract ideas - appeal to the emotions.
Constantly repeat just a few ideas. Use stereotyped phrases.
Give only one side of the argument.
Continuously criticize your opponents.
Pick out one special "enemy" for special vilification.
Goebbels' Principles of Propaganda developed the art into science.
Propagandists must have access to intelligence concerning events and public opinion.
Propaganda must be planned and executed by only one authority.
It must issue all the propaganda directives.
It must explain propaganda directives to important officials and maintain their morale.
It must oversee other agencies' activities which have propaganda consequences.
The Propaganda consequences of an action must be considered in planning that action.
Propaganda must affect the enemy's policy and actions.
By suppressing propagandistically desirable material which can provide the enemy with useful
intelligence.
By openly disseminating propaganda whose contents or tone causes the enemy to draw the desired
conclusions.
By goading the enemy into revealing vital information about himself.
By making no reference to a desired enemy activity when any reference would discredit that activity.
Declassified, operational information must be available to implement a propaganda campaign.
To be perceived, propaganda must evoke the interest of an audience and must be transmitted through
an attention-getting medium.
Credibility alone must determine whether propaganda output should be true or false.
The purpose, content, and effectiveness of enemy propaganda; the strength and effects of an
expose'; and the nature of current propaganda campaigns determine whether enemy propaganda should
be ignored or refuted.
Credibility, intelligence, and the possible effects of communicating determine whether propaganda
materials should be censored.
Material from enemy propaganda may be utilized in operations when it helps diminish that enemy's
prestige or lends support to the propagandist's own objective.
Black rather than white propaganda must be employed when the latter is less credible or produces
undesirable effects.
Propaganda may be facilitated by leaders with prestige.
Propaganda must be carefully timed.
The communication must reach the audience ahead of competing propaganda.
A propaganda campaign must begin at the optimum moment.
A propaganda theme must be repeated, but not beyond some point of diminishing effectiveness.
Propaganda must label events and people with distinctive phrases or slogans.
They must evoke responses which the audience previously possesses.
They must be capable of being easily learned.
They must be utilized again and again, but only in appropriate situations.
They must be boomerang-proof.
Propaganda to the home front must prevent the raising of false hopes which can be blasted
by future events.
Propaganda to the home front must create an optimum anxiety level.
Propaganda must reinforce anxiety concerning the consequences of defeat.
Propaganda must diminish anxiety (other than that concerning the consequences of defeat)
which is too high and cannot be reduced by people themselves.
Propaganda to the home front must diminish the impact of frustration.
Inevitable frustrations must be anticipated.
Inevitable frustrations must be placed in perspective.
Propaganda must facilitate the displacement of aggression by specifying the targets for hatred.
Propaganda cannot immediately affect strong counter-tendencies; instead it must offer some
form of action or diversion, or both.
These would be principles guiding the conduct of propaganda operations.
Larchmonter445 said...
james@wpc said...
It has only ever been the psychopaths against the rest of us. So I think it wise to reject all
labels they use to divide us and see ourselves as one humanity that instinctively cares for
each other.
Good advice. And the perspective on the Elites as psychopaths is correct. They brag
on Wall Street of their own pathology. Books are written of the psychodynamics of these rulers
of economy, military and politics.
Anonymous said...
From your first paragraph:
"...no matter what, the AngloZionists will blame Russia..."
Earlier today I took a screenshot of an NBCNEWS page. A video had a short descriptive sentence
which was spooky, sad and comical all at the same time. It is like watching the movie 1984 but
it is real life and I cannot leave the theatre.
"Officials are trying to find out whether Ukrainian separatists or Russians fired the shot
that took down Flight 17.
"I don't want America destroyed. I want her REDEEMED. Any American who DOESN'T want that
is NOT an American."
AMEN, Sister! Thank you for all you said. God, if we could just all work together developing
strategies to regain control of our politicians and rein in the oligarchs instead of bickering
and blustering and attacking each other.
james@wpc,
That was an excellent comment. Yes, psychopaths are drawn to power like moths to a flame
-- but in a system of representative government the constraints on their power, regardless of
however well it was designed, still boil down to the same thing: the willingness of the public
to get, and stay, involved in the process. That is precisely where we dropped the ball, and
while we were busy doing other things, the danged ball got hidden and we don't even know where
to look.
But the answers to this dilemma are out there just waiting for us to get our act together
enough to.. act together and get something done that really matters, to everyone eveyrwhere.
Please folks, let's get going on at least getting along and trying to decide what we really
want, and the best means of achieving it.
But, here is the kicker. Notice the red tips on the missiles. This designates they are training
rounds with inert warheads. Red tips on missiles to designate training or test rounds is a standard
practice for all ex-Soviet states including Russia and Ukraine. The DPR leaders, or anyone knowing
how to use this equipment, would know this and would never try to use them to actually shoot
something down.
If you look at any deployed BUK launchers, they always have white tips. These are live. I
have not seen any evidence that the militia have acquired live missiles to replace the test
rounds. This could be a good reason why we have not seen them deployed or talked about since
they were acquired. This could also explain the conflicting reports from Kiev about the militia
having them and then not having an active system.
WizOz 19 July, 2014 04:19
@Larchmonter445
You are unfair to the real father of Propaganda, Edward Bernays, the nephew of Dr. Freud,
who wrote in 1928 a book entitled "Propaganda"!
"I remember a book I read called PR: A Social History of Spin. The author discussed how
the Nazi Minister of Propaganda, Dr. Josef Goebbels, was an ardent student of Mr. Bernays,
despite the fact that Mr. Bernays was Jewish. Goebbels desperately wanted to meet Mr. Bernays
and apparantly sent numerous books to him to be autographed. We don't know if Mr. Bernays
autographed them, but Goebbels claimed that he did. Goebbels, who had a PhD in philosophy
(which is crucual in terms of understanding how he was able to understand Bernays and apply
his writings in the way that he did), apparantly had an even larger library on propaganda
than Mr. Bernays and had not only read all of his books, but had largely memorized a good
deal of them as well.
Goebbels was able to utilize Bernays' ideas on propaganda in a manner that was the most
malicious and homicidal ever seen in the 20th century: to support the Final Solution".
Actually you find a good presentation of Stuart Ewen's book "PR!A Social History of Spin"
@PR! A Social History of Spin; Mapping out the Development of PR" (pdf).
Anonymous said...
Fwd from Canuckistan
@Larchmonter445
Thx for that excellent summary re: propaganda.
It will surely help "us" in our collective quest to counter and challenge "our" yellow
journalists that repeat the narrative and precanned scripts that fuel the politicos suspicious
motives.
@Saker et @all, thx for your continued efforts and keep fightin' the good fight!
"Propaganda is as propaganda does,eh?"
Writer said...
Saker,
Listing and comparing all possibilities is good logical discipline and a useful exercise
in any confusing situation. With that in mind, one possibility has not been adequately examined,
an attack using interceptor aircraft. To understand why, compare the characteristics of
an interceptor to a surface-to-air missile.
A manned interceptor allows a visual identification of the target. (This is particularly
important in peacetime operations.) It also allows confirmation of destruction, with repeated
attack, if necessary. And it allows (at altitude) the use of guns rather than guided rockets.
While none of these may have been an issue in this case, there is another characteristic that
makes an interceptor attack quite distinctive: it can be done at long range.
This means (in principle) that anyone within a thousand kilometers (or more) could have attacked
that aircraft. Of course, this goes "down the rabbit hole" quite far, but it is a possibility,
and should be considered.
Having said this, and together with everything else that has been said on this subject, one
might ask, what was the purpose of this attack? Besides the propaganda value, it is a distraction
from what is actually happening "on the ground", so to speak. It allows the media, and whole
societies, to focus on something of little significance while ignoring important developments.
In that respect, it has been successful, even here in this forum.
Perhaps this war has a similar function, in a wider context.
Anonymous said... 19 July, 2014 05:25
"The death of about 300 people fully lies at the Ukrainian government's door," Matviyenko
said. The incumbent authorities in Kiev "are like thimble-riggers - they say one thing and do
a totally opposite thing."
"Independent investigation will give all the necessary assessments and we hope it will cool
off the hotheads in Kiev and will bring them back to senses and will show them that it's impossible
to continue the combat actions because a full-blown civil war will be the next phase," she said.
Anonymous said...
You don't even need to walk on the quicksand of "nineelven" for an example. There are plenty
of undisputed (any more) ones.
Remember the Maine anyone ?The US blew up one of its own battleships with about 1200 men
onboard, just to start a war with Spain. How about the Tonkin Gulf incident...even mainstream
corporate press admit that was a set up.
What about the recent sarin gas attack on Syrian peasants arranged by the degenerate govt.
of Turkey with the foreknowledge and tacit approval of the Obama administration ? That's been
outered in detail by Seymour Hersh..
Anonymous said...
Thanks for the analysis. This is a False Flag in the oldest tradition of the US War Party.
I'm sure Russia knows exactly what happened. The ukie air space must be the most closely monitored
in the world.
AGS said...
To JamesWPS. Here's a question. Name a successful world leader in the last 100 years who
was not ruthless. Its a prerequisite for leadership these days.
I have NEVER hopped on the bandwagon to criticize Putin just for shits and giggles. He's
a pretty pragmatic guy. He wants to move Russia forward. And he's sick of ruthless American
hegemony which is responsible for a lot of human suffering in the last century. I get all that.
Given the spiraling moral depravity of ZUSA -- I sympathize. But he learned his craft at KGB.
If I can pull up my big-girl panties and admit that GHWBush wasn't just some well-mannered patrician
(but a ruthless CIA black-ops chief) then you can admit Putin is ruthless too. You can argue
Putin has better reasons for being ruthless. Don't know. Doesn't matter. He wouldn't be President
of Russia if he were NOT ruthless.
I'll say this one more time. I have NO FUCKING CLUE who shot that plane out of the air. But
I would bet the farm that Obama and Putin DO know exactly who pushed the button -- and why.
I don't think Kiev or Novorussia fired the missile. It's possible. But unlikely. I believe someone
WANTS us to believe Kiev or Novorussia was responsible. Ineptitude or fog-of-war is more palatable
than purposeful intent when you kill a bunch of passengers and families on a civilian flight.
US could have done it. We have the means and ability and are RUTHLESS enough to kill innocent
civilians with missiles. Some might say we've had lots of practice. But no one has offered a
rationale for that scenario that seems plausible. Russia had the means, expertise, opportunity
and MAYBE -- based on what Strelkov said was found at the crash site -- a rationale for it.
We will never know. Ever.
My only job -- as a part of humanity -- is to be a filter for TRUTH. Shilling or spinning
for EITHER the blue or red team is cring-worthy. I'm too much of a snob to shill for anyone.
Truth doesn't need shilling.
Andrew said...
Saker:
Starting from about noon today in the eastern US, the Russians have been sitting back with
a wide Cheshire grin, as oppose to the suspicious panic they had yesterday.
Old Ez posted a very interesting link upthread - I would say by far this is the most interesting
post on the thread.
This tells me two things. Yesterday, the Russians knew the plane had been shot down with
a SAM launched in Donbass, but they weren't sure immediately who had done it since they knew
that the DNR had Buk systems obtained from Ukraine that Russia may very well have helped make
recently operable. Today they were able to confirm to their own satisfaction that it was the
Ukrainian military that is the guilty party, whether out of sheer incompetence as with the Transsiberia
shoot down, or out of conspiratorial malice, which is my suspicion and likely theirs.
So today we see Russia rejecting the possibility of the black boxes being delivered to them
and saying Kiev should lead the investigation of this mess (in other words confidently sitting
back knowing they have a Royal Flush in their own military data as to exactly what happened),
blaming the Kiev MOD for having brought operational AA SAM systems in theater and pointedly
suggesting they were the origin point of the shoot down, and threatening to back up NAF with
military force in the event of further cross-border artillery provocations. Russia in other
words is sitting back and rolling with the western punches, confident that no matter what the
West and Ukraine try to spin and release as "the truth", they will be able to trump with leaks
of their own intelligence data that show exactly who did it from within the Ukraine military.
Western newspapers relying on CIA/NSA/DIA sources have leaked the sort of "primitive" intelligence
we might suspect the US to be capable of providing in this theater from satellites and whatever
assets it has in Turkey, the Black Sea, and elsewhere nearby and correctly concluded that a
missile was launched from the conflict area and not from Russia. If they have figured out more
than that, such as the specific launch location or system used, they haven't yet let on, and
I am not sure they would be able to get that specific..
Russia on the other hand not only has its own air defence radar and data systems immediately
adjacent to the crash site as opposed to hundreds of miles away, but also has the benefit that
the Ukrainian systems (both ATC and AA defense) were all formerly operationally linked with
Russia's, with the likelihood that book door access capability still exists into their operating
data, to say nothing of innumerable Russian agents with the SBU, military, and MIA able to provide
human intelligence, as well as of course direct access to NAF intelligence gathering. It
is therefore highly likely that Russia knows exactly where the missile was fired from, what
Ukrainian unit did it, and has a voice recording of the fire command and related crosstalk from
Ukrainian military coms and also from Kiev-Borispol and Dnipropetrovsk ATC.
In other words, Ukraine can spin all they want, but Russia is going to dribble the real truth
out slowly unless Ukraine will just man up and explain what happened to a candid world.
karlof1 said...
Operation Northwoods was the template for 9/11. The actual documents are publicly available
at the National Security Archive, http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/
As I've outlined, World War 3 has already begun, and the latest BRICS moves present a very
big challenge to the US Empire, and the war within Ukraine is just one of many engagement fronts
already occurring. Like the Hydra, the Unipolar Power is very resilient at fighting off the
efforts to bring about a multi-polar world and has never wavered from shedding blood--anyone's.
I predict the intensity on the global scale will escalate and a new "hot spot" will sprout.
Andrew said...
I don't know if anyone else has noticed this little item, but isn't it funny how when 300
precious westerners are killed in Ukraine, it is an international outrage, but when Ukraine
kills that many Russian among its own citizenry in the matter of perhaps a week by bombing,
strafing, missiles, artillery, shooting, there is crickets chirping?
Could it be because as we already know thanks to Hitler, Streicher, Yatseniuk, and Poroshenko,
Russians are subhuman? So their death's don't even count? Like Palestinians? Who just in one
day saw as many of their compatriots die at the hands of Israel as died in MH17 crash with nary
a peep of outrage from the West?
Anonymous said...
Про "фальшивого" диспетчера (About the "fake" Manager)
"After the sensational statements Spanish Manager who worked at the Boryspil airport and
reported the fact of destruction of the "Boeing" Kyiv junta, was quickly brushed his Twitter
(which is pointless - screenshots is more than enough) and began trying to discredit the source,
saying that not the Manager and he was not such a person.
It is quite logical for fascists and their accomplices, as the Spaniard actually start torpedoed
preparing a provocation. In fact, as mentioned earlier, the Spaniard more than real and flashed
in the press long before history with the destruction of the "Boeing" Kyiv by the Nazis. For
example, here is the note from may 9, 2014.
Spanish blogger about the situation in Ukraine: People filled with hatred
Spanish blogger Carlos (@spainbuca) used his Twitter page to offer their own vision of what
is happening in Ukraine, where he has several years of experience with the air traffic controller.
However, the radicals called "separatist agitator" and demand his expulsion from the country.
On his Twitter page Carlos running Manager in Borispol, seeks to present objective information
about the events in Ukraine without trying to join any of the conflicting parties. Unlike many
large European media, he is not afraid to admit that to death in Odessa involved far-right radicals,
and the Ukrainian military men are not eager to fight against their own citizens in the South-East
of the country, as required by Kyiv authorities. Some readers thank him for his detailed and
unbiased coverage of political crisis in Ukraine, others require for his expulsion and even
death. "I have my own opinion, their own point of view, the point of view of an ordinary man
with a job that does not imply any dependencies. I do not belong to the media, to any political
party," emphasizes blogger. "I think people are filled with hate . I do not see the possibility
of returning to the West and East of peaceful life together. ... This conflict, and the people
don't want it resolved. And hatred is so great , at least in Kyiv that this country, I think,
will not be able to live in peace and tranquility," Carlos said in an interview with RT. "My
co-workers are not only intended to inform the authorities about what I give my point of view,
they are urged to ensure that sent me a whole battalion to have me deported to get me killed,
" said the Spaniard. - I had a meeting with the security service of one of the European embassies,
during which they told me that I better bring his family out of the country within 24 hours.
In the end, I listened and day took my wife and daughter from Ukraine".
Of course he they will try to shut up and try to discredit, as his testimony ideally complement
the testimony of several witnesses who had seen the aircraft junta near the crash site.
PS. Also in the topic.
1. The "Buk", which the junta was trying to pass for a Russian, was documented through Krasnoarmeysk
occupied by the junta from may, it was no one rocket.
2. According to the message of Zygobranchia, "Boeing" was first fired from the Ukrainian "Buka",
calculation missed and the ship was finished with rockets "air-air" with the Ukrainian aircraft.
3. In General, various Conspirology in my opinion complicates the problem - facts indicate that
the "Boeing" was shot down by a Ukrainian aircraft that was the reason of his death. The version
with "Bukh" in my opinion is a false trail."
Perhaps the Buk missile took out one of the Ukrainian fighters, which accounts for the parachute
seen, and the remaining fighter then shot down the airliner.
Paul II said...
Victor,
Perhaps they don't want people to contaminate the crime scene. It is looking entirely possible/likely
that an air-to-air missile was used, and they need protect the evidence.
As for a BUK, sounds like more noise in the endless noise around the Anglo-American Empire's
desire to maintain control of the world.
Sampanviking said...
As you said Saker Cui Bono
Look not only at the combat position on the ground (you do not need me to list that for you)
but also further afield.
First you have Europe and US wholly out of step over sanctions and the EU unable to agree
its new President and Foreign Minister, purely on account of Russia
Second - within hours the Israeli ground offensive starts to roll and has the best media
shield money could buy!
Anonymous said...
Just to add possibilities:
Consideration against a deliberate Ukies shot downof MH17: they should know that the debris
would fall in Novorussia controlloned areas and then profs possibly found.
Then, addo this.
If, for some reason, high altitude reconnaissance russian aircrafts were in the area, the Ukies
tryed to hit them with such Buk missiles (recently rushed in the region). In the route was the
MH17, or the aircraft/aricrafts entered in the MH17 shadow. So the missiles (such AA missiles
are fired in salvos, no just one), hit the MH17 and, possibly the (or one of the) russian aircraft.
Anonymous said... 19 July, 2014 05:25
"The death of about 300 people fully lies at the Ukrainian government's door," Matviyenko
said. The incumbent authorities in Kiev "are like thimble-riggers - they say one thing and do
a totally opposite thing."
"Independent investigation will give all the necessary assessments and we hope it will cool
off the hotheads in Kiev and will bring them back to senses and will show them that it's impossible
to continue the combat actions because a full-blown civil war will be the next phase," she said.
Anonymous said...
You don't even need to walk on the quicksand of "nineelven" for an example. There are plenty
of undisputed (any more) ones.
Remember the Maine anyone ?The US blew up one of its own battleships with about 1200 men
onboard, just to start a war with Spain. How about the Tonkin Gulf incident...even mainstream
corporate press admit that was a set up.
What about the recent sarin gas attack on Syrian peasants arranged by the degenerate govt.
of Turkey with the foreknowledge and tacit approval of the Obama administration ? That's been
outered in detail by Seymour Hersh..
Anonymous said...
Thanks for the analysis. This is a False Flag in the oldest tradition of the US War Party.
I'm sure Russia knows exactly what happened. The ukie air space must be the most closely monitored
in the world.
Anonymous said...
Fools think 'the truth' will save Russia- but the famous saying "truth is the first casualty
in war" is ever true. The 'zionists' took control of the mainstream and fake alternative
media outlets to control the 'truth' perceived by the sheeple- and in this aim they are 100%
successful.
False flags are used because false flags work. That a false flag is a lie by definition never
matters. False flags are always a small part of a well co-ordinated propaganda effort.
The aim of the West was to draw Russia into the Ukrainian situation (by threatening to eject
Russia from its essential port in Crimea), but ensuring Putin did not take the big step and
liberate the entire region of Novorussia. The 'stick' was the claim that if Russia went into
Ukraine, the West would immediately go into Syria. This argument persuaded Putin to be an 'appeaser',
and we all know how that works out.
Did you know the BBC claims that all the shelling on civilian areas in Novorussia is actually
likely to be a result of rebel ground-to-ground missile strikes? You and I would choke on the
thought of a lie that big, but the BBC states that lie every time it covers the situation in
Novorussia.
Their evil knows no bounds. If you make the mistake of thinking that because your opponent
is the West, in some sense there is 'hope' because the values of the West are fundamentally
'good', you are literally insane.
I would humbly suggest you look again at how the 'Allies' (the West) fought WW2. Not even
Genghis Khan had the same taste for exterminating whole cities full of innocent Humans that
the British and Americans used as their main method of waging war. Yes, the wartime Japanese
were unthinkably evil, and the Nazis ruthless beyond all excuse, but the Allies were led by
a far higher evil- one that used every aspect of WW2 to prepare the ground for one final World
War- the World War we are drawing ever closer to.
BuckHam said...
The actual airliner shooting and the corresponding mass propaganda are a clear indication
of the "target Russia strategy" and the culpability of the puppet masters.
circumstantial evidence shows it.officially facts don't matter, they never did. the western
propaganda machinery will not be distracted from it's ultimate goal: the dismantling of Russia
by all means.Voltaire net's quote is most fitting here:
"Since the attacks of September 11, we are witnessing a transformation of the way
the media report the news. They lock us in the unreal. They base truth not on the coherence
of a presentation, but on its shocking character. Thus, the observer remains petrified and
cannot establish a relation to reality.
The media are lying to us, but at the same time, they show us that they are lying. It
is no longer a matter of changing our perception of facts in order to get our support, but
to lock us in the spectacle of the omnipotence of power. Showing the annihilation of reason
is based on images that serve to replace facts. Information no longer focuses on the ability
to perceive and represent a thing, but the need to experience it, or rather to experience
oneself through it."
The Lockerbie case which turned factsupside down blaming Lybia's Ghaddafi is a case in point
(among others).
Think! Peace in Palestine would be trivial for the West if it were desired. Peace in the Ukraine
simply required the same solution witnessed peacefully in Czechoslovakia- a division into new
nations on long-standing ethnic lines. The destruction of Libya, Syria and Iraq only happened
because the West chose such evil. When the 'Cold War' ended, the West actually ramped up its
nuclear weapons programs, ending the anti-missile treaties so 'first strike' nuclear strategies
could be advanced.
Humanity does not want World War, but the mosters that rule the West surround themselves
with various types of influential death-cult servants like the zionists and fundamental 'Christians'
(who are not Christians, because they follow the Jewish Old Testament/Torah which Christ and
his followers specifically rejected when they created their new religion).
The entire ruling class in the USA wants to see Russians subject to the same never-ending
military aggression that the Palestinian people live with on a daily basis, yet Putin chooses
to cosy up to the monsters of Israel, because of their historic links to Russia.
Russia's supreme strategy is to own a nuclear arsenal far, far larger than most suspect,
and to ensure that if the worst happens, they have the absolute capability of wiping out every
square inch of the USA. What this fails to take into account is that the ultimate evil that
has taken control of the West is anti-life. It craves the destruction of all life on Earth-
to turn our planet into another lifeless body, like Mars (not so long ago, Mars was also green
and blue).
Mankind has an inherent sense of self-preservation. True evil must seek to over-rule this
somehow. First evil needs to take control of Man's destiny, and this is what zionism is for.
This is what the full surveillance programs revealed by Snowden are for.
Yonatan said...
Dear Saker
Here is a
very useful summary of the situation. It refers to Russian radar systems, and reminds us
about the false flag missile launch in the Mediterranean detected by Russia that could have
been a pretext for military intervention in Syria.
The important points from the article:
And here's what he [Putin] has done today is quite definite statement (yandexed):
i) Putin said that the cause of the plane crash was a "crime" [this word is inappropriate
when it comes to technical failure]
ii) He said that the guilty country on which territory the crash happened - that is Ukraine.
("The state, on the territory of which it happened, is responsible for this terrible tragedy").
iii) Putin promised to present evidence of his statement. ("I have already given the appropriate
instructions the Ministry of defense .. that they have rendered all the necessary assistance
in the investigation of this crime. We will do everything that depends on us to have an objective
picture of the incident was a treasure and our public, and the public of Ukraine, and all over
the world").
iv) The US has a system of control over space, similar to the Russian early warning system.
American satellites and installed in Europe radars also fix everything that flies and goes and
crawls. And representatives of the American intelligence has already stated that they recorded
a missile launch ground-to-air "by the Malaysian Boeing. But it did not name the place running.
Said that "could not determine" the edition of the Wall Street Journal. The second part is not
true. Perhaps Americans don't want to open a public place missile launch. Why?
v) In an hour after the fall of Boeing Vladimir Putin called Barack Obama and something spoke
to him. After that, according to unofficial data, the U.S. and EU agreed to consider disaster
Malaysian flight MH17 "accident". In any case, we already know that the US President on Friday
will hold a meeting with the national security Council, which will provide him with all that
is known about the disaster. While CNN reports that the fear of escalation of tensions in Ukraine
States will try to be "extremely cautious conclusions".
To me this seems to say Putin has evidence it was done by the Ukrainians and can provide
evidence to back this up. Obama knows this.
The Ukrainians have previously (in 2001) shot down a civilian aircraft. Ukraine kept up the
"it's not us" story for 6 months, ans when supporting evidence came out stated it was "by accident"
qualified by "It happens to everyone".
Same talking points as in NYT and WashPost. That reminds me coverage of Georgian invasion into Ossetia
in 2008 so closely that I think that same propaganda templates are used. No slightest desire to analyze
facts, construct models that point where the aircraft was exactly shot and what Buk batteries were present
in the vicinity of this area. Disgusting, simply disgusting. Luckily there is some resistance to brainwashing
which is evident from the comment below.
I see Kiev have ignored the demand from Russia and the rebels for a ceasefire in the area
so the rescue and international investigation can begin.
Just goes to show how much respect Kiev have for the dead that they continue to bombard
the civilian population and hold up the rescue efforts while making wild accusations against
the Russian speaking population of SE Ukraine.
Kiev need to cooperate with Russia and the rebels controlling the area so the rescue can
be done asap.
dinfr31, 19 July 2014 10:24am
Does the black box emit a signal enabling it to be found after disasters such as this?
If this is the case can that signal be tracked to see if it (the black box) is in fact been
moved to another location?
RandolphHearst dinfr31, 19 July 2014 11:01am
Yes it does. It can also be turned off / disabled.
RuStand, 19 July 2014 10:34am
An Chris Johnston should be happy. His article on the 38 bodeis taken by the rebels to
morgue instead of letting them to rot in the filed ignited a sizable outburst from all osrt
of morons.
Ron Paul, a former Texas Congressman, points out that the missiles potential source of manufacture
is immaterial and argues that although ISIS has a lot of American weapons this does not
mean that the US government and Obama wanted them to fall into ISIS's hands. He goes on
to add that speculation of Kremlin involvement in the form of pro Russian militia seems
propagandised.
What is evident is that those involved in the conflict in eastern Ukraine cannot be considered
impartial and objective sources of information. The Ukrainian security forces released the
unverified tape of a conversation between pro Russian rebels purporting to admit responsibility
for the downing of the Malaysian airliner – however, they can hardly be considered to be
unbiased and objective. What is most worrying is the "free press" in the west has taken
this on board as factual and based all their suppositions as to who was responsible on this
source as if it was undisputed evidence. The US, who has backed Poroshenko's military campaign
in Donetsk, have also added "unverified" accusations suggesting that they have seen BUK
missile launchers being spirited over the border back into Russia, suggesting that the Russian
military were directly involved in aiding the rebels to launch these SAM missiles and therefore
concluding that both the rebels and Russians are complicit.
On the other side, Russia has been quick off the mark to accuse the Ukrainians of downing
the plane implying that it was a false flag operation and have criticised the US for backing
Poroshenko's brutal assault of the rebel held east, which has made full use of air power
and has led to high levels of civilian casualties, which are largely ignored by the western
media. Obama and the US government are, according to Moscow, directly and indirectly responsible
for what has happened in Eastern Ukraine and the tragedy relating to flight MH17.
Accusations and counter accusations fly thick and fast and it would be disingenuous to
suggest that propaganda is not an element in these from all sides involved in the conflict.
Which brings me to the point that a responsible approach towards finding out what actually
happened with this tragic event can only be achieved by an independent investigation that
examines all the evidence and arrives at an objective conclusion. Until this happens, propaganda
sourced journalism, from whichever side in the conflict, should be taken for what it is,
namely, propaganda and speculation founded on prejudice and innuendo.
MarioCarbone Steben68, 19 July 2014 10:57am
Nothing can be or will be achieved.
This is on frontline and there isn't any security predispositions to do this.
Because you have sides in the war here, you can't find anybody that would be trusted
by all sides.
And finally what could land examination prove?
Obviouslly here is not question what did it but who did it and you can't come to answer
with plane observation.
Otherwise it is so, that on the plane was killed many people but on the land there were
killed many more. So actually separatist/ukraine/russian side is not so much in shock then
is the rest of the world.
It is like wake up call.
1. This ethnic Russians shouldn't be pusshed so hardlly
2. This plane shouldn't fly there.
ECXi97, 19 July 2014 10:38am
Why people say so-and-so (whichever side) is destroying evidence/covering this up/etc,
what do you mean? This crime is going to be solved because there is definitely data about
where the missile was fired from/trajectory because this is a major conflict area that will
have definitely been monitored by both the American and Russian military. In fact I don't
believe for one minute that Putin and Obama do not already know. So what can be covered
up?
fauxtronic ECXi97, 19 July 2014 10:43am
I'm surprised you need this clarifying, but here goes: Evidence is required to convict
people who commit crimes such as this in an international court. By removing and destroying
evidence, those who are implicated in this atrocity are reducing their chances of being
convicted.
ECXi97 fauxtronic, 19 July 2014 10:46am
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. It's likely both sides already know who
was responsible so there is no incentive/way of covering anything up.
In all this is a clear US strategy. The Middle East must be one of the regions where large
regional war will begin. The Middle East is one of the front three large global war fronts.
Second Front - European. In Ukraine, the war has unleashed. It already include Poland,
the Baltic States (project "Rzeczpospolita -2 against Russia"), will not stand aside and
Russia.
Third Front - Pacific (Pacific frontier: the awakening of the spirit of the samurai in
Japan, the Pacific front taking shape). In the Asia-Pacific region to actively knock together
an anti-Chinese front, awaken Japanese samurai spirit. China loses remain cautious and more
frightening neighbors.
Fire in Eurasia should solve all the major problems of USA . First, the old European
aristocracy and power centers (Rome, the German-Romanesque aristocracy, Germany, France)
will be forced to join the future "Atlantic empire." Great War will allow the West to get
out of the systemic crisis with minimal losses, to solve the problem of huge debt load and
economy (the supply of weapons, equipment, ammunition, and after the war restoration of
damaged infrastructure).
Why is the Guardian (and all mainstream media) rushing to conclude that the Rebels did this?
Seems like propaganda.
I have no idea what really happened, but I know that unrest in Ukraine is very beneficial
to the US. Anything that prevents Russian gas being sold in Europe is support for the dollar.
The main pipelines run through Ukraine until Southstream is built.
They need to sell their shale/LNG to the rest of the world to prevent the US trade deficit
balooning and causing international dumping of UST's and possible dollar collapse.
Condi Rice explains the US intention very clearly (addressing Angela Merkel in this video):
"You want to change the structure of energy dependence. You want to depend more on
the North American energy platform, the tremendous bounty of oil and gas we are finding
… You want pipelines that don't go through the Ukraine and Russia. For years we have
tried to get the Europeans to be interested in different pipeline routes. Its time to
do that".
Everything in my post is factual. These facts taken together suggest that the USA has
much to gain from unrest in the Ukraine. Strange that the German media is so much more circumspect
than the angloidsphere.
Jennifer O'Toole RandolphHearst, 19 July 2014 11:28am
Admitted it ony by Kiev sources so you cant trust that one. the Kiev authorities are
covering up and its something really big, meanwhile the Kiev authorities continue to rain
down bombs on their own people the civilians in the Ukraine including those Russian speaking
Ukrainians, this is commonly known as murder but the West seem to be fast asleep on this
one, why is it because it doesn't fit their mindset?
hfakos FOARP, 19 July 2014 11:30am
List your evidence. You don't have any implicating either side with certainty. Wait for
the investigation.
theonionmurders JohntheLith, 19 July 2014 11:35am
It would be 'simplistic' to think that the Kiev regime wouldn't try to cause an international
incident so as to hasten sanctions toward Russia.
Kal El, 19 July 2014 10:51am
So, from reading the article, Kiev classes the "destruction of evidence" as taking away
bodies before they rot in the summer sun to a morgue.
Far from "destroying evidence" by taking bodies to a morgue they are actually "preserving"
evidence.
Yet another example of how whatever Kiev says is completely the other way around.
Oskar Jaeger Kal El, 19 July 2014 11:44am
The perpetrators are interfering with a crime scene, while not allowing access to international
observers.
RuStand Oskar Jaeger, 19 July 2014 1:38pm
OSCE:
"On the one hand, the bodies don't appear to have been tampered with. They're lying, it
seems, exactly where they fell," Mr. Borciurkiw said during an impromptu press conference
in a Donetsk hotel lobby."
"On the other hand, there's no one really on hand to move them, to identify them, to
put them in cold storage," he said. "So because of that, we observed early stages of decomposition
already"
So OSCE understands that there' s the need to put the bodies in cold storage. But you
keep parroting Kiev's propaganda - they literally write in their outlets that rebels 'have
stolen the bodies' ..
France Fradet, 19 July 2014 10:55am
This video from the Bloomberg website is interesting: a Jane's IHS weapons expert saying
it was 99% likely mistakenly shot down. The lives of the dead passengers are not an iota
more important than the lives of the dead on the ground or in Gaza, or of civilians anywhere
else. A dutch life is not more important than an Arab one. People baying for Putin's blood
should be baying for Netanyahu's too, and Obama's.
And I am amazed that no-one is thinking the BRICS are shaking off the petrodollar, and
Imperialists like H Clinton and Obama couldn't have had a better excuse to attempt to make
Russia a pariah state.
It is amazing how the USA can be so brazen as to stand up and point the finger so readily
at Russia. How many innocents have died as a result of it's use of missiles from drones
in Pakistan and Afghanistan? How many innocent Palestinians have to die as a result of it's
continuing support for and arming of Israel. These are current and ongoing slaughters and
the stars and
H17, we should not be afraid of saying so but we should not allow Obama to divert our attention
away from the mad bad policies that the USA and the western rightwing governments continue to
pursue.
Ahhbisto SimpleOldSailor, 19 July 2014 11:37am
If you listened carefully all Obama said was that US intelligence had evidence of a rocket
launch...and that is all he said. He was entirely non-judgemental, calm and rational. He called
for a thoroughand professional air-crash investigation to establish the facts.You however just
can't wait to spout off your 238th piece of anti-American rhetoric.
Solidarnosc, 19 July 2014 10:59am
The scramble among western leaders to make political capital out of this tragedy may ultimately
backfire quite badly.
neillwa, 19 July 2014 10:59am
The Ukrainian government has accused pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine of trying
to destroy evidence at the site where the Malaysia Airlines crashed ....
Malaysian transport minister Liow Tiong Lai says he believes Russia is trying to ensure
a safe route to the crash site.
Isn't it funny how Ukraine and the West are just finger pointing acting like children in
the school playground, while Russia and China are trying to get to on and help with the investigation
without making accusations.
regfromdagenham, 19 July 2014 11:00am
"Obama says destruction of MH17 is a 'wake-up call' for Europe"
The lessons Europe needs to learn:
1) U.S. intervention (foreign policy) normally ends in civil war for the country involved,
so don't get drawn in.
2) When a country has a democracy, let the results stand and wait for the next election.
The Ukraine would have had a democratic election one year after the Western backed Maiden coup.
3) Don't fly over war zones.
jiffery regfromdagenham, 19 July 2014 11:06am
You might consider that the USA, for all its many foreign policy faults, did not bring down
this airliner.
ElvisInWales jiffery, 19 July 2014 11:09am
Doesn't the same apply to Russia?
Blame games are just that, why not wait until we get some actual facts.
Would you convict someone on nothing more than hearsay?
IranCorrespondent, 19 July 2014 11:03am
US invests in a multi Billion Dollar hi-tech ability to spread lies and cover up the crimes
of their government all over the planet, but the whole world still knows they just murdered
ANOTHER plane load of people
sasha19 IranCorrespondent , 19 July 2014 11:07am
A link to such a statement?
regfromdagenham IranCorrespondent, 19 July 2014 11:07am
Considering the resources at their disposal the lies are are pretty abysmal.
the U.S. in Syria "We are drawing a line over the use of chemical weapons"
a few moments later:
The Assad regime has used chemical weapons and we have put the proof on YouTube.
What a coincidence!
Kal El, 19 July 2014 11:04am
LOL, the Ukrainian's aren't wanting much are they.
Separatists must put down their weapons, hand over control of the Ukr/Rus border (and allow
international access to the site).
In that case then, the plane is certainly NOT going to be recovered and an investigation
done because the Anti-Kiev forces won't agree to points 1 and 2.
Commentator6, 19 July 2014 11:05am
"Warwick's arrival at the scene came in the first few hours before there was any security
presence, and he believes he saw strong evidence that looting was already well underway."
"I noticed that I hadn't come across a single wallet with money, or a mobile phone or a camera.
They've all mysteriously gone missing."
It usually means a journalist has no credible evidence at all for an assertion beyond what
they believe to be true.
It also provides a neat 'get-out clause' if they are subsequently proven to be wrong.
"I noticed that I hadn't come across a single wallet with money, or a mobile phone or a camera.
They've all mysteriously gone missing."
Also, this makes no sense. Why should he 'come across money or wallets' when they are either
likely to be preserved if they remain in pockets or hand luggage? Notice he doesn't say that
he witnesses these thefts happen anywhere, he merely infers it.
Any that aren't secured this way are usually destroyed or lost on impact. This also begs
the question of why you would have your money or wallet unsecured during the flight anyway.
Also, if he comments on how bodies have been disfigured beyond recognition, why does he expect
passports, cameras and wallets to be fully intact and visible for all to see?
Paradoxically, he then bemoans the fact that no effort is being made to preserve the crash
site, only to later complain that the bodies have been left to decompose in the heat.
This is highly manipulated, shoddy journalism constructed to make a particular ideological
point and you two are naive enough to believe it.
Doolie, 19 July 2014 11:06am
The west has a long long history of arming political factions that suits the west's sick
agenda; Syria, Israel, Al Quaeda, Iran the list is very long.
The west has provided weapons to kill thousands of civilians, innocent civilians, civilians
who were as innocent as were those passengers on the MH flight.
But the death of western civilians on MH flight prompts people to a greater outrage than
the death of Palestinians and their children, killed by smart US missile weapons this week.
Christine63 Doolie, 19 July 2014 11:16am
No-one here is celebrating war nor death of innocents. The only people that do that are the
hard-liners who are directly involved, who seem to get a kick out of murdering innocent civilian
parties.
The issue here is that a band of separatist rebels, aided by Russia in apparently shooting
down a civilian jet with almost 300 people and children on board, and are now refusing to co-operate
in allowing the countries involved, to access the site and do what needs to be respectfully
done.
Doolie Christine63, 19 July 2014 1:00pm
If the USA had not promoted the initial unrest in the Ukraine and installed a puppet Nazi
as head of the regime; there would not be any fighting there at all. Russia didn't start this
mess, the West did.
This IS a now a war zone, it was idiotic of European authorities to allow flights over a
war zone airspace. A military plane was shot down only days ago. Does that sound like safe place
to take passenger flights through to you ?
SvQMedia, 19 July 2014 11:07am
I wonder what the Baroness Ashton thinks about all this...
unaszplodrmann SvQMedia, 19 July 2014 11:14am
I'm sure her conscience is very... resilient.
zvanrost, 19 July 2014 11:10am
"An air traffic controller, present in the Control Tower (Kiev) that controlled the flight
of the Malaysia Airlines flight that crashed on Thurday with 295 people on board points to Ukraine
and not the separatists as being responsible for the downing of the plane.
The controller, Carlos, who appears to be Spanish but based in Borispol, has tweeted the following:
"Everything has been recorded on radar. For those that don't believe it, it was taken down
by Kiev; we know that here (in traffic control) and the military air traffic control know it
too (7.14)
As soon as the Malaysia Airlines B777 disappeared the Kiev military authority informed us of
the shooting down. How did they know? (6.00 pm)
If the Kiev authorities want to admit the truth 2 fighter jets were flying very close a few
minutes before the incident but did not shoot down the airliner (5.54)
The B777 was escorted by 2 Ukrainian fighter jets minutes before disappearing from radar.
(5.48)
The Ministry of the Interior did know that there were fighter aircraft in the area, but the
Ministry of Defense didn't. 7.15 pm)
Some days ago, on here, I said that the Kiev military wanted an excuse to get rid of the
current president. This could be it, and on Timoshenko's orders 7.36
The military confirnm that it was Ukraine, but it is not known where the order came from.
7.31"
Christine63 zvanrost, 19 July 2014 11:23am
If the separatists didn't do it and the B777 was being 'escorted' by Ukraine jets, then the
black box recorders would prove this as the crew would had to have known.
So why were the black box recorders removed by the rebels and are apparently nowhere to be
found? Don't they want their innocence to be proven?
Trudi Goater, 19 July 2014 11:10am
The Malaysian minister has said that Russia is helping them and he has spoken to Putin. I'd
rather believe him than that twit from the Kiev Post
InternetDemocrats, 19 July 2014 11:10am
Why are we calling these morons "rebels"?
You know, when they're obviously sponsored by a foreign power.
What's "rebellious" about that?
ElvisInWales InternetDemocrats, 19 July 2014 11:17am
Sorry but the Syrian section is in the Middle east where your comment is better placed, as
good ol Blighty along with Uncy Sam and Aunt Hollande are sponsoring the war in Syria.
Nexusone InternetDemocrats, 19 July 2014 11:21am
Bit like the Neo Nazis in Kiev that are waging a genocidal war against ethnic Russians. Neo
Nazi thugs that were put in place by the perfidious Washington thugs. No nation should trust
the US Administration.
Ingelrild InternetDemocrats, 19 July 2014 11:27am
Is this like the neo-nazi, anti-semite pre-election 'rebels' in Kiev, sponsored by foreign
powers?
Jesus.
Kal El, 19 July 2014 11:11am
So, how many billions of dollars have been spent putting satellites into space, that then
can't even spot MH 370 flying around for hours, or see when a (supposed) missile hit MH 17.
What an absolute waste of money.
Seems for all their supposed on-board technology a "spy" satellite is ONLY any use if the
object is stationary and saying "cheese".
From comments: "But what about the US? Do they really think that relations with Russia will
return to normal at some point in the near future after all this? Do they now think (or don't care any
more) that they simply can do without Russia's role in international fora and problem solving in various
conflicts around the world?"
I've just been listening to Obama's speech on MH17 and am now pretty much convinced this
is a black op. Obama himself sort of gives the game away when he said something along the
lines of "this is a wake-up call for Europe'. So, what have we here? The US has been
trying for months to get Europe on board in draconian sanctions against Russia but while European
governments are willing to talk the talk (or, rather, echo American bellicosity), they're not
willing to walk the walk. This culminated a few days ago when nine European leaders came out
against further sanctions leaving the US alone in its decision to impose sectoral sanctions.
Now, what do we have? A plane from an Asian airline whose passenger list is largely European,
going down in East Ukraine. While virtually no facts whatsoever are yet known, the whole western
MSM goes into propaganda overdrive – Putin dunit – while Obama at his most patrician, speaks
of the need to wait for evidence but apart from those six words, spends the rest of the speech
making it clear that Putin dunit.
Meanwhile, at the UN, Churkin single-handedly had to fend off a pack, there's no other word
for it, of western representatives shouting that Putin dunit.
Can anyone spot a pattern here? Is there any doubt that Russia is being fitted up with the
purpose of removing European objections to draconian sanctions?
If this is a black op, the flight was not randomly chosen. It's no accident that
it happened to have 100+ researchers into HIV on board en route to a conference in Australia.
Not just a waste of life but a waste of lives devoted to helping others. The cynicism is breathtaking.
And can anyone explain how so many undamaged passports were collected together so quickly for
display to the media?
Interesting, if this was genuine Black Op designed to snitch up Russia and pressurize the
European into agreeing to tougher sector based sanctions, the why choose a Malaysian non-European
airliner? Yes the MH17 had a predominantly European passenger list, however wouldn't a European
airliner like KLM, Lufthansa, Air France, etc been a better target and better for propaganda
purposes?
The Netherlands has one of the EU countries has consistently been reluctant to increase sanctions
against Russia, and even opposed Poland's hysterical demand that NATO forces should be deployed
to Poland.
The Western media is in full propaganda blast mode, Western politicians especially from the
Anglosphere are all choreographed to blame Russia and force Europe to confront Russia on the
Anglosphere's behalf.
Warren, take down a western airliner and you generate too much interest and scrutiny from
that country which might prove unhelpful. Lots of tiresome relatives who won't let the matter
drop bringing political pressure on the government of that country. A non-western airline but
on a flight with a lot of Europeans on board is a better bet, particularly when that airline
has had one hinky incident in the recent past.
I'm sure the US has a bone to pick with Malaysia for having hosted war tribunals in Kuala
Lumpur, the first of which (held in 2011) found George W Bush and Tony Blair guilty of war crimes
in Iraq; the second (2012) finding Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Alberto Gonazales, John
Yoo, David Addington and William Haynes II of conspiracy to commit war crimes after hearing
testimony from people tortured in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo prisons; and the third (2013) finding
the State of Israel guilty of genocide against Palestinians, and one Israeli army general guilty
of war crimes for his involvement in the Sabra and Shatila massacre in 1982 when the Israeli
army encircled a refugee camp and allowed Lebanese Christian Phalangists to enter and butcher
people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuala_Lumpur_War_Crimes_Commission
Was in a four day trip and now catching up the recent events.
1. Seps started to gain momentum and Uki forces suffered great losses and had to withdrew.
2. Civilian plane with 300 people was shot down in the Donetsk airspace.
3. Seps are blaming the junta and the junta is blaming the seps and Russia.
4. The Western world is, naturally, blaming seps and Russia.
5. Junta gained from the horrible tragedy.
6. Seps and Russia were the big propaganda losers from this tragedy.
7. Either the seps unintentionally or the junta intentionally shot down the plane.
Even if, as is likely, the Ukrainian military shot down the plane, it's still more likely
they did it 'unintentionally'. I mean that in the sense that they thought it was an enemy aircraft.
When you put dubiously-trained crews in a combat zone after feeding them ridiculous propaganda
about a Russian invasion, and an unidentified aircraft unexpectedly appears in their sector,
this is the sort of thing that's likely to happen.
I still wouldn't blow off the theory that they thought it was Putin, however unlikely;
the colour scheme of the two planes is uncannily alike, and if there were Ukrainian aircraft
in the vicinity at the time (alleged but not proven) they may have been on-scene only to make
a visual ID before firing. I'd give a lot to hear the communications from those planes if they
actually were there. There are a lot of airliners still transiting that area, and visual ID
would be the only way to be sure of the right target. I don't think it was in any way unintentional,
and I think the planners are just adapting to the circumstances as best they can. Whatever the
intent was, it is fast turning into a full-court press seeking outrage and calls for war.
Published on 17 Jul 2014
I have to say, They were gonna fool a whole lot of people with this one! Thankfully, they have
been caught!
The Ukraine Government supported a youtube clip that they say proves Russia had involvement
and that Rebels shot down Malaysia Flight MH17. However, Due to their sloppy work, They have
been caught! They have since tried to delete the file, but not before it was downloaded over
800 times! More info at links!
Exactly what I've been thinking, Southerncross. Dead men tell no tales – if Kiev was responsible,
those with knowledge of what happened are probably not long for this world.
If the Ukes really did have the fake tape created on July 16, then this implies they were
planning to attack a commercial airliner. They had no way of knowing their attack would succeed
– sometimes things don't work out the way they are planned. They might not have even known which
particular day the attack would occur.
However, they might have just been holding the tape ready to go, just in case they succeeded
– which they did.
Then they would have hastily uploaded the already-prepared tape; but some moron forgot to
change the timestamp on the creation date.
If you get the sense that this has all happened before, or was meant to happen before, you're
probably right. Remember Operation Northwoods, back in the sixties?
Option 8: 8. "It is possible to create an incident which will demonstrate convincingly that
a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner en route from the United
States to Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama, or Venezuela. The destination would be chosen only to
cause the flight plan route to cross Cuba. The passengers could be a group of college students
off on a holiday or any grouping of persons with a common interest to support chartering a non-scheduled
flight.
a.An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil
registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At a designated
time the duplicate would be substituted for the actual civil aircraft and would be loaded with
the selected passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered
aircraft would be converted to a drone.
b. Take off times of the drone aircraft and the actual aircraft will be scheduled to allow
a rendezvous south of Florida. From the rendezvous point the passenger-carrying aircraft will
descend to minimum altitude and go directly into an auxiliary field at Eglin AFB where arrangements
will have been made to evacuate the passengers and return the aircraft to its original status.
The drone aircraft meanwhile will continue to fly the filed flight plan. When over Cuba the
drone will begin transmitting on the international distress frequency a "MAY DAY" message stating
he is under attack by Cuban MIG aircraft. The transmission will be interrupted by destruction
of the aircraft which will be triggered by radio signal. This will allow ICAO radio stations
in the Western Hemisphere to tell the United States what has happened to the aircraft instead
of the United States trying to "sell" the incident."
When your foreign policy guardians make up convoluted and shamelessly self-interested plans
like this, it should later be unsurprising that people suspect your motives whenever there is
an unexplained incident.
Sounds like one conspiracy theory I've heard about United Airlines Flight 93 on 11 September
2001 in which the passengers were all transferred to another flight that took them to Ohio.
"…RT, the Kremlin-funded English-language propaganda channel, even suggested that the missile
may have actually been targeted at Mr Putin's personal Il-96 jet.
Such claims were "the straw that broke the camel's back for me" for RT's London correspondent,
Sara Firth, who resigned from the channel in protest at its coverage.
"I resigned from RT today," she tweeted. "I have huge respect for many in the team, but I'm
for the truth." "
--
Snap. Just like
Liz Wahl's dramatic on-air resignation from RT, which was known at least 20 minutes in advance
of the "spontaneous event" and probably longer, and featured the steering of rainbow-suspenders,
me-and-my-Jewish-boyfriend gayboy Russophobe Jamie Kirchik. Ms. Wahl's name has been forgotten
now to all but neocon activists, and her big flounce-out was over gay rights, which are not
even on the mainstream radar (just as I said at the time would be the case) since they failed
to achieve their goal, which was to derail the Sochi Olympics.
All part of the wool-pulling-over-the-eyes plan in this next act of deception by the west
as it continues to batter at the ramparts of Russian resolve and try to drag it into a reaction
which can be reacted to with righteous rage.
"…Authorities in Kiev say two men have been captured near the border on the Ukrainian side,
according to reports, one of whom had paperwork indicating he was a missile specialist…"
Now you need a documents-carrying missile specialist to fire a Buk? A missile system designed
to be fired by conscripts? The surest sign of a false-flag scam is the amount of convenient
evidence which surfaces immediately afterward. Look how long "Kenny-Boy" Lay got away with his
fiscal shenanigans at Enron before the whole thing collapsed, despite the mountain of evidence
that did not surface until the collapse although it was years in the making.
If it is verified that Ukranian Air Force fighters were near the airliner before hand then
that looks like a possible scenario that Kiev had decided to set up. We've heard nothing from
the Spanish ATC guy in Kiev since his twitter was shut down/blocked. Most of the major media
channels have ignore it too and are still pushing the fake telephone intercepts with the wrong
date stamps etc.
I wonder how close the fighters got because if they got within visual range then there would
be a chance that someone would have taken a photo – the same with the flight voice recorder
which would then have been remarked upon.
A single aircraft by itself, at altitude (flying significantly higher than the earlier An-26
artillery spotter plane that was shot down – i.e. it had to fly lower to see targets clearly
enough) would not have attracted any suspicion considering that airliners were continuing to
fly that route.
Flying two fighter aircraft in the same vicinity would change that calculation and lend suspicion
that it was a high value asset, maybe a specialist military aircraft such as some sort of SIGNIT
aircraft, possibly from a NATO country. Maybe that was the intention. to deliberately draw a
missile. Re the KAL007 shoot down in 1983, a USAF SIGNIT 'Cobra Ball' had been flying in near
by airspace only an hour before KAL007 flew off course and entered soviet airspace of the Kamchatka
peninsula.
I don't quite see how a uke fighter shooting it down works though as forensic and expert
evidence would show that it was an air-to-air missile that did it, not a much larger missile
from a BUK. It would only make sense if the US would be able to push Europe in to action very
fast before the full facts are uncovered. They certainly are pushing right now (Hilary, Samantha
'career genocide expert' Power, and Total Fruitcake McCain for starters).
But as we know, facts are irrelevant the the war crowd who will jump on anything, however
slim, and twist it in such a way that they will use it to punish whomever they wish. In the
West they have done this over and over again to justify everything from invasions and bombing
campaigns to sanctions. Now that is true evil.
But what about the US? Do they really think that relations with Russia will return to
normal at some point in the near future after all this? Do they now think (or don't care any
more) that they simply can do without Russia's role in international fora and problem solving
in various conflicts around the world?
We can see that Hilary is setting herself up as a 'Hawk' for the upcoming US presidential
election so that the Republican neocon crazies will not be able to accuse her of being as limp-wristed
as Obama. Hilary is not in government so she does not have to really pay any consequences for
what she says – the same is true of anyone in opposition.
Frankly, it's impossible as an outsider to be accurate, but what we can expect is that any
information that does not chime with a simple story pumped by the pro-American crowd will either
continue to be totally ignored, brushed off or ridiculed. The consensual media will play ball.
These people don't give a shit that 300 people died, only how they can use it.
Maybe he got cold feet after the airplane was downed? No matter who did it. The seps will
be blamed nonetheless. Maybe Pushilin calculated that it is better to quit now than continue?
I don't believe Pushilin's resignation has much to do with the airline disaster.
This was actually in the works for some time. In fact, I have a comment somewhere above (I
don't remember where) on the political wheelings and dealings within the Novorossiya political
parties. This was a few days before the airline crash, and that event has obviously trumped
everything else, at least for a while..
Basically, in the Novorossiya political cauldron, there are winners and losers.
Winner include Strelkov; losers include Borodai, Pushilin and (by implication) their Kremlin
sponsor Kurgin'an.
I have been reading at news and comment sections in Finland. Finland is one of the most russophobic
countries in the world, but the current vile hatred towards Russia is something that I have
never witnessed in my life.
(Finnish media is also brutally censoring any pro-Russian comments right now. I tried to
send three different comments in civilized language to Helsingin Sanomat comment section. All
of them were pre-censored. I didn't see many other pro-Russian comments there either so apparently
they are censoring all pro-Russian comments there.)
Shooting down that civilian plane was a struck of evil genius by the West.
1. It greatly further discredited the resistance forces of Novorussia.
2. It greatly further demonized Russia. Mainstream media is having a field day and comment sections
are filling from comments which many basically demand to "destroy" Russia.
3. It gives NATO a causus belli to directly get involved in Ukraine.
4. It will be a lot more pressure to the EU to isolate Russia.
5. It installed a great deal of hatred towards Russia among the general western population.
If you look at this terror act purely strategically it was just genius. Evil but genius.
After seeing all this hatred and rage towards Russia I am confident that we will see a war
in my lifetime. My generations (I'm in my 30s) of Finns and younger absolutely hate Russia.
This is not an understatement. In comparison most of young Finns were cheering when the USA
invaded Iraq. We have chosen our side. We will always back the enemy of Russia whether it was
Nazi Germany or the United States. This is a feature that can never be changed. Finland is and
will always be hostile towards Russia and do it's part to weaken/destroy Russia when given a
chance.
Russia should prepare for a war. Both military and economic war. The West is out to get Russia.
The shooting of the airplane is an escalation of the warfare against Russia. They want to split
Russia into several parts. They want to remove Russia's nuclear weapons. They want to destroy
any industry that is in Russia (especially the arms industry). They want to fully control Russian
oil and gas (and transfer the profits out of Russia). They want to make Russian people poor
and miserable. They want to humiliate Russia. They hate Russia and they want to see bad things
happen to it. They eventually want to make Russian people extinct and have an empty land full
of natural riches and resources. This is what they want.
What should Russia do?
Hopefully the Russian leadership finally realizes what kind of people it is facing. These
are murderous, totally amoral and extremely powerful and intelligent enemies. They are not Russian
partners. They are enemies. So stop calling them partners and call them what they are, enemies.
Also,
Stop sending your children to western schools (yes, I'm looking at you Sergei Lavrov).
Stop sending your money to western banks.
Stop buying western real estate.
Stop going to West as tourists.
Stop buying western made products unless it is absolutely necessary
Get rid of the oligarchs (at least those who transfer money out of Russia)
Stop destroying your chemical and nuclear weapons arsenal!!! Whatta hell is Russia doing
anyway? Russia needs all of it's stock of WMD right now.
Increase your support to Novorussian resistance forces.
Russia cannot retreat anymore since an open warfare has been declared against it.
Right now I am not sure that Russia is strong enough to face the coming assault (media, economic,
terrorist and military assault).
The 20th century killed too many Russians. Especially the best Russians. The Bolsheviks persecuted
and murdered hundreds of thousands of Russian nobility, industrialists, farmers etc. People
who were the best and brightest of the nation.
Then came the civil war and a great famine of between 1918 and 1925. Again, millions of people
killed.
Then came the Great Patriotic War. It was a great victory for the nation, but again almost
30 million people killed. Most of them young. The bravest young men were sacrificed in the front
against the Nazis. This had to be done to save the country, but the cost was astronomical.
Then came the breakup of the country in 1991 after decades of failed economic policies and
pure idiocy (like supporting Eastern European nations that hate Russia with free oil and gas).
After the breakup of the country again millions of best and brightest of the Russians emigrated,
left the country. Another huge loss of human capital. Russia was split in many parts. Russia
was separated from the Baltics, Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan. Russia lost whole industries
and valuable ports to these new independent countries.
Russia HAD the potential to become the most powerful country on the earth that also can provide
it's population with a good standard of living. That potential existed in 1914 before Russia
entered the First World War.
After that it has been a big catastrophe after another for the country. These catastrophes
ate the resources and the potential of the country and made it's gene pool worse. Russia did
achieve many great things (winning the war against the Nazis, putting the first man to space,
developing a nuclear weapon) but in a long run the costs were too high for the country. Those
catastrophes had weakened Russia too much for it to be able to compete against the United States
and Western Europe who never faced such catastrophes and enriched themselves with imperialist
colonial policies and slave labor. Eventually the Soviet Union collapsed because it didn't have
the capacity to compete.
The West sees Russia as a land full of resources that is occupied by people who must be removed.
Russia has only one thing going for itself, the nukes. The nuclear weapon is the best thing
that has happened to Russia since 1945. It has enabled Russia to last to this day.
Hi, Karl, I am just curious. (This is a friendly comment, please don't take it the wrong
way.)
I am just curious, on a psychological level, why you are different in your views from the majority
of Finns of your generation?
What were your formative experiences?
You don't need to reply, but I would be happy if you do.
While agreeing with your assessment of the intentions of the Western sociopaths class toward
the Slavic Orthodox civilization, your obsession regarding a claimed genetic deficiency in the
Slavic people is tiresome, offensive and without basis.
The Finnish hatred certainly includes a purported Russian genetic inferiority so is it not
likely that you have simply adopted such as a core belief? Your monologue about the best and
brightest either being murdered or fleeing Russia leaving nothing but human scum behind would
be well accepted among Nazis and racists in any country.
You are proposing some sort of reverse natural selection where the mentally weak and physically
deficient survive while the superior DNA dies or runs. Truly a unique theory. Yet, as pointed
out earlier and unrefuted by you, genetically inferior Russian kids born in the late 90′s and
early 00′s kick the butts of your oh-so-superior Western kids in math and science. Please offer
an explanation.
Yalensis had a similar question but I add to it regarding your belief that Russian are profoundly
damaged humans yet you seem to have a genuine concern over their fate. Something does not add
up.
Ok, I decided to make a dedicated post to this Skillt moron. Mark said:
***
Ummmm….is Mr. Skillt aware that eastern Ukrainians are white? And that shooting white people
is an ineffective technique for ensuring the survival of the "white race"?
***
Mikael Skillt is a moron and an enemy of nationalism. How, you might ask. He's fighting alongside
Nazis, for a Nazi regime. No way he's an enemy of nationalism then! One would think that people
like him are better informed regarding the eclipse of the European nation states and the Anglosphere.
Unfortunately, Mr. Skillt has a primitive understanding of the realities. He thinks of Russia
in terms of the Soviet Union, i.e. communist, and 'connect the dots' that this is the same communism
that is destroying his native Sweden.
In March of this year, after the coup took place, the author of the above pieces wrote an
article dealing with Ukraine: …[T]his praise of Ukrainian nationalism by Brzezinski is odd coming from someone who has
spent decades, since his days as a young academic, condemning nationalism and asserting that
international capitalism, founded upon a globalist elite that transcends territorial borders,
is the next phase of historical evolution in a dialectical process. Brzezinski does not even
believe in "independent nationhood." He believes that it is passé.[10] However it is the line
followed by all the other mouthpieces of globalization, including the USA and the E.U., and
all the pontificators at the United Nations, who are condemning Russia and upholding this "Ukrainian
nationhood." None, of course, are champions of nationalism, which they regard as anathema. It
is another means of undermining Russia as the primary state that remains in the way of the "brave
new world," or the "new world order" as it has been called. Hence, "nationalism" is only used
as a dialectical strategy as part of a globalist agenda.
Brzezinski also alludes to what is the real bugbear of the globalists: the fear that Russia
will lead a Eurasian bloc which, we might add, would also find allies across the world, from
India, to Venezuela to Syria;[11] hence the simultaneous actions against the latter two states,
fomented by the same forces that are backing the situation in the Ukraine. Brzezinski, as a
principal spokesman for the globalists, talks of an "expansion of Europe." Brzezinski openly
states that the globalists want the Ukraine to be part of the E.U. as the start of a process
that will integrate Russia also. He states that this is the wave of the future, and that a Russia-led
"Eurasian union" will fail. However, if the E.U. represented a truly independent third force,
it would have been targeted as avidly by the globalists as Russia and the previous Soviet bloc.
Unfortunately, the E.U. has not emerged as a third force, but as an appendage of U.S. foreign
policy, and its position on the present Ukraine situation is yet another example of this.
http://www.counter-currents.com/2014/03/geopolitics-and-oligarchy-in-the-ukraine-crisis/
Does this "European Union", whose capitol Brussels is on the verge of becoming minority European,
truly represent "Europe" that the Maidanites want so badly to be part of? Isn't an European
Union without Europeans worthless? In a sense, isn't Ukraine more European than France,
Belgium and England - demographically and geographically? Or is this Europeanness an abstrat
idea, a social construct? The EU, the media and the Zionists want you to think so. Just like
they tell us that America is historically a 'proposition nation' devoid of any ethnic or religious
core (an idea advanced by Jews, which is, for most of the country's existence until 1965, patently
false. Look no further than the
first immigration
law passed by the Framers soon after the Declaration of Independence and of the American
demographics and immigration laws until 1965).
Look at the demographics of the post-Soviet states in Europe.
Now look at the demographics of the "free West".
Draw your own conclusion. Did the Zionist Anglo-American bloc or the Russian-led bloc preserve
the demographics better? Save for the historic gypsy population of some eastern European countries,
the demographics are still continental European.
Meanwhile, Mohammed (and its variations) is the most common name for babies born in London.
The English are a dying people and are expected to become a minority in England before 2050.
This figure, 2050, is very optimistic, 2040 is a more realistic date. The European French are
<80% of the population and the babies born the last year are up to 35% minority. This is a ticking
demographic bomb. Note that I said "European French", so here other European nationalities besides
the native ethnic French are included as well.
The Netherlands, England, West Germany (East is still amazingly European), Italy, Spain,
Portugal, now Ireland (things are changing really fast in Ireland, for some reason the economically
fragile country is being flooded by poorly skilled immigrants from Africa and the Middle East
for the sake of displacement), Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Austria. These countries have been part
of the 'free West' since the end of WWII. They all share self-hatred, a vicious media, an education
system controlled by Trotskyites and they are all on the way to becoming minority-majority.
What about the 'authoritarian' east? Bulgaria, Croatia, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Serbia,
Hungary, Romania, Ukraine(!), Slovakia, Czech Republic, Moldova etc, are not suffering the genocidal
policies of the 'free West' post-WWII because they were ruled by the Soviet Union (Russia) until
1991. They 'missed' the 1945-91 period of social engineering of Critical Theory, white privilege,
self-hatred, pseudo-humanism and other anomalies - all the products of Trotskyism (Jewish activism)
imported/exported from America.
This Mikael Skillt is not a nationalist. He's a thug attracted to violence. His native country
is a huge mess.
That the 'West' goes to great length in suppressing the opposition to racial replacement
and expressions of racial solidarity, including with laws that can deprive you of your liberty
for speaking heretical views, and that in Ukraine they do a 180 and instigate the Ukrainians
to hate brotherly Slavs, undisguisable from ethnic Ukrainians, is a testimony to the evil nature
of this 'Western' elite. Stoking hatred between Europeans, suppressing the hatred between Europeans
and non-Europeans whilst displacing them and eventually doing away with their very existence.
Pierce wrote a fictional book "The Turner Diaries" under the pseudonym Andrew MacDonald.
However Pierce never advocated violence, I use to listen to his broadcasts American Dissident
Voices and read the transcripts on NatVan/NatAll.com from 2000 to 2002 when he died.
Pierce, was a true intellectual, commenting on current affairs, providing analysis and
exposing the Zionist power structure in the US. Every year he and his comrades in the National
Alliance would publish report detailing who owns US media companies.
Kevin MacDonald has the same facts based cerebral approach of William Pierce in documenting
and exposing the Zionist power structure.
MacDonald reminds me of Pierce in so far as the sincere discussion of taboo subjects is concerned.
Mearsheimer and Walt discuss the power of the Zionists in directing American foreign policy.
Internal policies pursued by the lobby are not touched upon. Mearsheimer and Walt are moderate
critics of the lobby, and so is MacDonald. The former exposes the foreign policy, and the latter
the internal policy.
Pierce is more of a Bobby Fischer in his approach to Jews.
Although it's a heretical.com link, the review was originally published in the American Renaissance
magazine.
Kevin MacDonald was a leftist student during the 60s counter-culture revolution. He later
changed, and I don't think he has much in common with the late William Pierce. MacDonald still
teaches at the university, but he and the university staff are constantly harassed by the SPLC.
This harassment includes many failed attempts at getting him fired. Pierce, a physics professor,
stopped teaching in the 60s:
I have never read 'The Turner Diaries' that southerncross mentions below, even though I do
know about its existence. I did read some scripts from Pierce's many radio broadcasts. He was
clearly radical.
Btw, recently the SPLC came up with a new schtick to attack 'the man': border vigilant.
Guess who it's aimed at? Why, at anyone who thinks the US must follow
Today, a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet carrying 295 people was shot down - allegedly by
pro-Russia separatists - in eastern Ukraine, dramatically changing the scope of Ukraine's months-long
conflict.
On Wednesday, VICE News correspondent Simon Ostrovsky spoke to US Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey
Pyatt, who said he has no doubt Russia is arming the separatists, effectively encouraging the
escalation of the fighting.
It was the day the Russia-Ukraine crisis went global, claiming the lives of nearly 300 people
from at least 12 nations spanning across five continents.
Details are still emerging about the downing of a Malaysian Airlines passenger jetliner in
eastern Ukraine on July 17, apparently by a surface-to-air missile.
But the circumstantial evidence is mounting - and appears to point to separatist culpability.
And what had been a localized conflict has suddenly, and dramatically, become a major threat
to international security.
Will the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 be a game changer in the months-long
conflict between Russia and Ukraine? And if so, how?
On the latest Power Vertical Podcast, I discuss this issue with Mark Galeotti, a professor
at New York University, an expert on Russia's security services, and author of the blog "In
Moscow's Shadows;" and Kirill Kobrin, editor of the Moscow-based history and sociology magazine
"Neprikosnovenny zapas."
This is interesting.
Vice President of Malaysian Airlines, whose name, for some reason is called "Heib the Gorter"
gave a press conference in Amsterdam, in which he stated the following:
According to the flight plan, the plane was supposed to fly at 10.66 km. However, Ukrainian
dispatchers requested the plane fly lower, at 10.05 km.
Presumably this lower altitude would have made the plane more vulnerable to attack from the
ground.
"Cui Bono?" is the classic question which those days are never asked by Western MSM, let alone Investigated
. Junta gained from the horrible tragedy. Seps and Russia were the big propaganda losers from this tragedy.
Earlier, when we
commented in the abnormality in the flight path of flight MH-17 we said that "perhaps before
coming to "certain" conclusion about the involvement of this rebel or that, the key questions one
should ask before casting blame, is why did the pilot divert from his usual flight plan,
why did he fly above restricted airspace, and just what, if any instructions, did Kiev air control
give the pilot in the minutes before the tragic explosion?"
The simple answer would have come if Ukraine had merely released the Air Traffic Control recording
from the tower and flight MH 17, something Malaysia did in the aftermath of the disappearance of
flight MH 370, which at last check has still not been uncovered.
It now appears that answer will not be forthcoming because as the
BBC reports "Ukraine's
SBU security service has
confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew
of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency."
What happens to the recordings next is completely unknown. What is known is that any hope of
getting an undoctored explanation why the plane flew as it did, or what the pilots may
have seen or said in the moments before the explosion, is forever gone.
It also means that any hope of actually working with facts instead of emotional appeals, and
getting to the bottom of the Malaysian airline tragedy, resides in what may be recorded by the black
box, whose location right now is now exactly clear. From
the Independent ....
Yesterday, we
laid out extensively what the official Ukrainian case was when it came to "proof" that Russian
separatists had launched the Buk missile which allegedly took down flight MH-17; we also highlighted
several glaring inconsistencies and questions that still remained open after the "incriminatory"
YouTube clip release. So far, any international response has been muted to this hastily prepared
evidence of Russian involvement, although the day is still young.
So what about the Russian side? Below we present the key arguments made by Russia to suggest
that not it, but Ukraine, was responsible for taking down the Malaysian Boeing.
As
reported earlier by RIA, the Russian Defense Ministry says it had intercepted the activity of
a Ukrainian radar system on the day the Malaysian plane went down in eastern Ukraine, the ministry's
press service said Friday.
"Throughout the day on July 17, Russian means of radar surveillance intercepted the operation
of the Buk-M1 battery's Kupol radar station located in the region of the populated area of Styla
[30 kilometers south of Donetsk]," the press service said in a statement.
"The technical capabilities of the Buk-M1 allow the exchange of data on air targets between batteries
of one battalion. Thus, the launch of rockets could have also occurred from any of the batteries
deployed in the populated area of Avdeevka [8 kilometers north of Donetsk] or from Gruzsko-Zoryanskoe
[25 kilometers east of Donetsk]," the ministry said.
Latina Lover
Memo from NWO:
You mean Russians will be allowed to give their side of the story?
This cannot be allowed. We need WW3 to reputiate national debts and kill off the useless
eaters. How else are we going to convince the sheeple to commit mass suicide while we get even
richer?
Gaius Frakkin' ...
Isn't it interesting how Russian state media presents precise details and facts while USSA
state media whips up vague generalizations appealing to emotion.
BaBaBouy
The Big QUESTION IS: Who Sent That Doomed Plane Over The Center Of THE WAR ZONE ?????
Its The At THe Heart Of This Tradgedy AND Pretty Fucking Clear...
One Wonders, Is Anyone Sending A Civil Plane To Fly Over GAZA Today???
pods
I got a question, we killed like a million non-combatants in Iraq, why is 300 dead here a
big deal?
I mean, it sucks, but in the big scheme of things we (the US for all those arguers) probably
kills this many innocents in a month RIGHT NOW.
pods
nope-1004
You're right, it's not a big deal in reality but in the media it is because the picture being
painted is one of a radical Russian gov't that shot down a civilian airliner. US media is playing
with your emotions. In Iraq the picture painted was some wonderful freedom fighting Merikans
liberating a nation of its oil.... I mean, dictator.
"Humanitarian efforts" always make people back a movement, even if the underlying reasons
(oil, USD reserve status) are not fully disclosed.
CognacAndMencken
I'm really astonished how the utopian libertarians in the comments section of ZeroHedge are
such ardent supporters of Russia's newest dictator. You guys bash/hate America, the western
economic system, American workers, American corporations - basically everything American - and
you guys LOVE Putin. Serious MAN-crush. I remember a ZH article about Putin some time ago showing
pictures of Putin with guns and hunting and doing sporting events, and you guys were LUSTING
after him. *LOL* Unreal. Who would have ever guessed that libertarians would sympathize with
Russian dictators? A few years ago at ZH, this was unheard of.....
angel_of_joy
ZH readers still have a somewhat reasonable amount of common sense, and like to think with
their own brains regardless what media is force feeding them.
Which is not something that can be said about you, for one thing... Too much cognac, I
Herd Redirection Committee
In the Putin/Obama game, yes, ZH loves Putin. How could you not?
Thats as far as it goes. I think the average Russian and the average American have more in
common with each other than they do with their respective 'leaders'.
The simple fact is, "the separatists" don't have an air force for the Ukrainians to target.
This was an accidental shoot down by the Russian side, what the plane was doing that far east
is the only mystery.
Kapital Xposure
the BUK missile system doesnt just use 1 truck as widely reported, it needs multiple trucks
in triangulation to be able to work and target anything at those altitudes, all trucks need
skilled operators to work in unison to fire a missile and hit a target.
so captuing just a BUK unit on its own is not really a problem, but having the entire portable
system in place with all units working together means you control that airspace up to 40,000
easily
so how did these rebels get hold of the entire system and where did they get the technicians
skilled enough in running a complex ground to air system like this?
we lost 9 people from melbourne australia here alone, 27 all up from australia, the russians
to be killing australians is not something we are liking right now, and i want nothing more
than to find all of those responsible, from the top down to the bottom.. and drop them out of
a plane at 32,000 feet and give them the same chance they gave the children from melbourne they
murdered.
RIP and we will not forget the deaths of the children father and mothers that were murdered.
topshelfstuff
The Spanish air controller confirms a conflict between the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry
of the Interior intimating that the order concerning the downing of the aircraft came from the
Ministry of the Interior, which is dominated by Svoboda and Right Sector.
'This Kiev air traffic controller is a citizen of Spain and was working in the Ukraine. He
was taken off duty as a civil air-traffic controller along with other foreigners immediately
after a Malaysia Airlines passenger aircraft was shot down over the Eastern Ukraine killing
295 passengers and crew on board.
He also said that the MH17 flight was escorted by Ukrainian fighter jets minutes before it
was downed. It is worth noting that the presence of the Ukraine fighter jets reported by the
Spanish air traffic controller was confirmed by eyewitness reports in the Donetsk region:
A division of Buk missile systems of the Ukrainian Armed Forces was, according to
Pravda, deployed to the Donetsk Oblast on July 15, two days before the downing of the Malaysian
airlines MH17 flight. The Buk missile system has the capabilities of downing an aircraft flying
at 35,000 feet.
While the Pravda report remains to be confirmed, Russian Defense sources confirm the presence
of several missile batteries in the Donesk oblast operated by the Ukraine armed forces:
'The Ukrainian military has several batteries of Buk surface-to-air missile systems with
at least 27 launchers, capable of bringing down high-flying jets, in the Donetsk region where
the Malaysian passenger plane crashed, Russian Defense Ministry said"(RT,
July 17, 2014)
Of significance, the Prosecutor General of Ukraine Vitaliy Yarema confirmed that the Donesk rebels
do not have Buk or S 300 ground to air missiles which could have downed the plane.
According to the Kiev Post report:"Ukrainian prosecutor general
says militants did not seize Ukrainian air defense launchers"
Members of illegal armed units have not seized air defense launchers of the Ukrainian Armed
Forces in Donetsk, Ukrainian Prosecutor General Vitaliy Yarema said. (Kiev
Post)
Yarema also confirmed that according to military sources:
"After the passenger airliner was downed, the military reported to the president that terrorists
do not have our air defense missile systems Buk and S-300," (quoted by Itar-Tass).
This disclaimer is pro forma. It comes from official sources and can easily be reversed at a
later date as part of the propaganda campaign directed against the Donbass rebels.
Yet what appears to be contradictory in these various statements is that immediately after the
downing of MH17, an adviser to the Ukrainian Minister of Internal Affairs Mr. Anton Gerashchenko
stated categorically that the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 MH17:
"had been downed by an air defense missile system Buk" (without however
mentioning who was behind the missile operation)
According to the Ukraine Interfax News Agency Anton
Gerashchenko, "said on Facebook that the plane was flying at an altitude of 33,000 feet
when it was hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher." According to the
Strait Times:
Mr Gerashchenko was quoted as saying: "A civilian airliner travelling from Amsterdam to Kuala
Lumpur has just been shot down by a Buk anti-aircraft system… 280 passengers and 15 crew have
been killed."
How could he have known what type of missile system had brought down the plane? His statement
contradicts that of the Ukrainian military.
In the face of events from Ukraine to Gaza, we want to believe that the world is not a place
of uncontrollable catastrophe
Any journalist should hesitate before saying this, but news
can be bad for you. You don't have to agree with the analyst who reckons "news is to the mind
what sugar is to the body" to see that reading of horror and foreboding hour by hour, day after
day, can sap the soul. This week ended with a double dose, administered within the space of a few
hours: Israel's ground incursion into Gaza and, more shocking because entirely unexpected, the downing
of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 over Ukraine, killing all 298 on board
The different responses these events stir in those of us who are distant, and the strategies
we devise to cope with them, say much about our behaviour as consumers of news. But they also go
some way to determining our reaction as citizens, as constituent members of the amorphous body we
call public, or even world, opinion.
As I write, 18 of the 20 most-read articles on the Guardian website are about MH17. The entry
into Gaza by Israeli forces stands at number 21. It's not hard to fathom why the Malaysian jet strikes
the louder chord. As the preacher might put it, "There but for the grace of God go I." Stated baldly,
most of us will never live in Gaza, but we know it could have been us boarding that plane in Amsterdam.
Which is why there is a morbid fascination with tales of the passenger who changed flights at
the last minute, thereby cheating death, or with the crew member who made the opposite move, hastily
switching to MH17 at the final moment, taking a decision that would have seemed so trivial at
the time but which cost him his life. When we read about the debris – the holiday guidebooks strewn
over the Ukrainian countryside, the man found next to an iPhone,
the boy with his seatbelt still on – our imaginations put us on that flight. Of course we have
sympathy for the victims and their families. But our fear is for ourselves.
The reports from Gaza stir a different feeling. When we read the Guardian's Peter Beaumont describe
the sights he saw driving around the strip on Friday morning –
three Palestinian siblings
killed by an Israeli artillery shell that crashed into their bedroom, a father putting the
remains of his two-year-old son into a plastic shopping bag – we are shaken by a different kind
of horror. It is compassion for another human being, someone in a situation utterly different to
ours. We don't worry that this might happen to us, as we now might when we contemplate an international
flight over a war zone. Our reaction is directed not inward, but outward.
When we get all but a full cavity search in order to board a passenger plane why do they allow
a commercial airliner to fly over a war zone. This one is down to our own authorities that plane
should never have been there.
Also, if the West had urged Ukraine to go for the federalisation option,
there would be no "separatists" in the east.
Ever since independence in 1991, Ukraine has been pretending that it can be a second France
- a unitary state imposing a single national identity on all its various ethnic and religious
groups.
This is why Ukraine has been so dysfunctional, because what France achieved in the late eighteenth
and early nineteenth centuries -- national unification and ethnic harmonisation -- cannot be
repeated in the early twenty-first century by Ukraine.
A far better governance model for Ukraine would have been (would be) the Federal Republic
of Germany.
Pity the US leadership has been too dumb to point this out to Kiev.
RESUME OF ANALYSIS: What all this means is that if a BUK rocket was launched from the territory
controlled by the Militia, the Boeing would have fallen much further to the south-east – i.e. will
into the Russian territory. Otherwise, there would have been not time to detect the aircraft, perform
electronic capture and launch the rocket. If this was a BUK, and not a jet fighter, then it is most
likely that the launch was made from the territory controlled by the Ukrainian army, and the rocket
was sent "chasing after" the airplane.
I am not an aerodynamics specialist. I am a radioelectronics expert. Nevertheless, I specialize
in aviation. If there are aerodynamics specialists here, please critique away.
Initial Data: the plane's elevation is 10,000 metres, speed is 900 km/h (or 250 m/s).
Judging from the photos from the site of the crash, where all the pieces lie together in one
place, it appears that the plane fell as a whole (i.e. some fragments may have broken off, but the
fuselage remained intact). So, the aircraft well "as one piece" – i.e. it did not break apart in
the air.
Accordingly, it must be considered as one body, the speed of which has a very large dependence
on air resistance, particularly given the design features and its intended use.
The time of a body's free fall:
T = sqrt(2h/g)
Thus, from a height of 10,000 metres, a body will fall:
T = sqrt(2*10000/9.8) = 45 second – HOWEVER! – this applies only in vacuum.
At the same time, the downward velocity when falling from this height is:
V = sqrt(2gh)
This speed will equal 442 m/s – HOWEVER! – this, once again, applies only in vacuum.
In real-life conditions a fall happens with a certain maximum speed, at which the force of air
resistance becomes equal to the force of gravity. For a person's body, for instance, this speed
is equal to 40 m/s. For a bullet, this speed is approximately 50 m/s (depending on form and mass).
Given the plane's mass and its enormous size, let's take this speed to be 40 m/s.
Accordingly, the plane would have been falling approximately 250 second – let's round
it off to 4 minutes, which is quite close to what happened.
Let's accept that the reduction of horizontal speed also occurs pursuant to a linear equation
with certain acceleration.
The vector of the force of front air resistance is directed against the speed of movement, and
its magnitude is proportional to characteristic area S, density of the environment ρ, and speed
V squared:
V=C((P*V^2)/2)*S
For the aerodynamically well-designed body of an aircraft, Cx < 0.3
Let's calculate the force of air resistance at the speed of 250 m/s
0.3*1.26*250*250/2*50=590кН
The mass of Boeing 777 = 300 ton (in equipped state)
It means that horizontal deceleration due to air resistance would be 590/300 = 2 m/s^2
– just as I suspected (however, this is at the maximum speed).
Now, let's take our favourite highschool equation:
X=(V1^2-V0^2)/2a
Given the nonlinear nature of deceleration, divide it in half – and we get 31 kilometres.
Let's consider the strike distance of the rocket. Maximum strike distance of AGM-86 ALSM rocket:
At the height of 30 m – 20 km
At the height of 6,000 m – 26 km
The chance of a successful strike: 0.6 – 0.8
This distance should not be mistaken for the distance of detection.
Map: Yellow Pin to the West = Estimated Rocket Launch Location; Yellow
Pin To the East = Crash Site (not included --NNB)
What all this means is that if a BUK rocket was launched from the territory controlled by
the Militia, the Boeing would have fallen much further to the south-east – i.e. well into the Russian
territory. Otherwise, there would have been no time to detect the aircraft, perform electronic
capture and launch the rocket.
If this was a BUK, and not a jet fighter, then it is most likely that the launch was made from
the territory controlled by the Ukrainian army, and the rocket was sent "chasing after" the airplane.
"According to the Russian Defense Ministry information, units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine
located in the crash-site are equipped with anti-aircraft missile systems of "Buk-M1" ... These
complexes in their tactical and technical characteristics are capable of detecting air targets at
ranges of up to 160 kilometers and hit them at full altitude range at a distance of over 30 kilometers,"
the ministry's statement reads as cited by Ria.
... ... ...
There's no way that the self-defense forces in Donetsk Region are in possession of such complex
weaponry, he stressed. Only S-300 and Buk surface-to-air missile systems are capable of hitting
targets at such altitude, the source said.
Buk is a family of self-propelled, medium-range surface-to-air missile systems developed by the
former USSR and Russia to engage targets at an engagement altitude of 11,000-25,000 meters depending
on the model.
Chances are high that the Malaysian plane was really downed by the Ukrainian anti-aircraft defense,
Yury Karash, pilot and aviation expert, told RT.
"A Boeing-777 is an extremely reliable piece of machinery. Modern planes don't just crash with
no reason," he said. "Let us recall how a Ukrainian missile downed Russian TU-154 aircraft ten years
ago. I can't completely exclude the possibility the Boeing-777 was also hit by a missile."
"I don't know who could've shot it down. But I can allege that it was most likely the Ukrainian
armed forces: simply because its military – anti-aircraft defense, in particular – are, unfortunately,
unqualified. As judging by the overall state of the Ukrainian armed forces, insufficient attention
has been paid to their training," Karash added.
Reports in the Western media hurried to blame the self-defense forces of the People's Republic
of Donetsk for bringing the plane down.
The claims were denied by the representatives of the Donetsk People's Republic, saying that it's
the Ukrainian military, which destroyed the aircraft.
"We simply don't have such air defense systems. Our man-portable air defense systems have a firing
range 3,000 - 4,000 meters. The Boeing was flying at a much higher altitude," Sergey Kavtaradze,
special representative for the prime minister of the Donetsk People's Republic, explained.
Kavtaradze also expressed condolences to the relatives of all of those who lost their lives in
the tragedy.
IHS Jane's Defense analyst, Nick de Larrinaga, also shared the belief that the self-defense forces
lack the capability to bring the Malaysian plane down.
"At normal cruising altitude a civilian passenger aircraft would be out of the range of the sort
of manned portable air (defense) systems that we have seen proliferate in rebel hands in east Ukraine,"
he said in a statement.
But the aircraft would be within range of Buk or other medium-range surface-to-air missile systems,
he stressed.
"Both Russia and Ukraine have such SAM systems in their inventories," the expert added.
It seems unlikely that the self-defense forces could've used Buk surface-to-air missile systems
to down the Malaysian plane, retired Brig. Gen. Kevin Ryan, the director of the Defense and Intelligence
Project at the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs, said.
"It takes a lot of training and a lot of coordination to fire one of these and hit something,"
he told CNN. "This is not the kind of weapon a couple of guys are going to pull out of a garage
and fire."
According to Ryan, if the plane was really taken down then it was done by a professional military
force.
The huge loss of life threatens to have wide-ranging and unpredictable consequences, coming just
after the US imposed further sanctions on Russia for continuing to provide weapons to the rebels.
Defence and security experts said the
Russian-made
Buk surface-to-air missile system, known to be in the hands of pro-Russia fighters in Ukraine,
was most likely used.
"This was not an 'incident', this was not a 'catastrophe', this was a terrorist
act," said Ukraine's president, Petro Poroshenko.
... Putin chaired a meeting on the Russian economy which began with a minute's silence, and laid
the blame for the crash at Ukraine's door: "There is no doubt that the nation over whose airspace
this happened bears responsibility for the terrible tragedy," he said.
US government officials confirmed to media outlets that a surface-to-air missile brought down
the plane. US intelligence was reportedly still working to determine the exact location from which
the missile was fired, and whether it was on the Russian or the Ukrainian side of the border.
Rebels in the self-declared Donetsk and Luhansk people's republics have shot down several Ukrainian
planes and helicopters in recent weeks. But they insisted they had no part in the downing of MH17,
claiming instead that Ukrainian fire was responsible.
... ... ...
Questions were being raised as to why Malaysia Airlines had continued to fly over such a volatile
region, where separatists were known to be shooting at aircraft. Qantas, the Australian carrier,
said it had been steering clear of the area by 400 nautical miles for several months. Malaysia Airlines
said after the crash that it had altered its flight paths and other airlines either did likewise
or emphasised they had already been taking alternative routes.
Apparently separatists were bragging on Twitter about shooting down another Ukrainian military
plane. Wonder if there's any truth to this. It certainly does look like a catastrophic blunder.
If it was the separatists with covert help from Russia, I can't see how Putin can wriggle out
of it.
Indeed. And one more thing: could we please have slightly less Anglo-Saxon-centred reporting
please? The article states...
US authorities were working to determine whether American citizens were
yet one look at a Dutch newspaper web site reveals that at least 154 Dutch people died. Last
I checked The Netherlands were a neighbouring country, also in Europe. It would grace The Guardian
(and I expect other UK news outlets will have the same Anglo-Saxon bias) to report on this aspect
of this horrible event as well.
I wouldn't call a full blown civil war "some pathetic feud." However tragic this event may be,
lets keep some sense of proportion. For people fighting and dying down there on the ground,
for their country and way of life, whatever it may be, this is not some "pathetic feud."
Your comment is insulting to both ukraininans and russians.
Please take note all you apologists and propagandists for from both sides who will soon
be crowding these pages with absurd and conspiratorial claims and counter-claims. You are
so pathetic.
And then watch, before very long they will lay blame with the US government and the
CIA instead of taking responsibility for their own mess.
Make feeble attempt at taking the high moral ground and then proceed to defend the US.
You can't mistake a commercial airliner for a fighter jet
Yes, you cannot mistake a commercial airliner for a fighter jet. But you can use this argument
for defense like it was when US shut down Iranian plane.
Gorram -> hertsred, 17 July 2014 11:52pm
Good point and the crew of the Vincennes were all awarded combat action ribbons for completion
of their tours in a combat zone. The ship's commander received the Navy Commendation Medal for
acts of heroism or meritorious service.
Let's not forget that the US probably shot down an
Italian commercial plane near Ustica in 1980 when attempting to shoot down a Libyan plane that
was possibly carrying Gaddafi or high ranking Libyan official. The subsequent cover-up is quite
revealing.
Seems strange as well that the US knew nothing of the other Malaysian flight that disappeared
earlier this year. Those seas are swarming with US navy ships trying to intimidate and spy on
China, but yet didn't notice that flight?
Aguia, 17 July 2014 9:16pm
Of course, blame the anti-government rebels right away with no proof. Disgraceful.
Menotti -> Aguia, 17 July 2014 9:25pm
To be fair, the European Air Traffic Control Authority have confirmed it was a missile; which
suggests that they have tracked it on some radar somewhere, presumably indicating where it came
from.
We extend our deepest sympathies to the families and friends of the passengers and crew
of MH17. Based on the information currently available it is believed that the airspace
that the aircraft was traversing was not subject to restrictions.
EUROCONTROL has been informed that MH 17 en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur has
crashed in the eastern part of Ukraine.
Our thoughts are with the families and friends of those on board.
According to our information, the aircraft was flying at Flight Level 330 (approximately
10,000 metres/33,000 feet) when it disappeared from the radar. This route had been closed
by the Ukrainian authorities from ground to flight level 320 but was open at the level at
which the aircraft was flying.
Since the crash, the Ukrainian authorities have informed EUROCONTROL of the closure of
routes from the ground to unlimited in Eastern Ukraine (Dnipropetrovsk Flight Information
Region). All flight plans that are filed using these routes are now being rejected by EUROCONTROL.
The routes will remain closed until further notice.
The European Aviation Crisis Coordination Cell is being activated to coordinate the response
to the impact of the airspace closure.
How is that 'interesting'? Eurocontrol have said it was 1,000ft above the restricted airspace.
Unless I need to don my tinfoil hat to get your meaning.
My condolences go out to the families of the victims. All those involved in this crime should
take a hard look at themselves in the mirror and then go and hand themselves in. No hiding.
My condolences go out to the families of the victims. All those involved in this crime should
take a hard look at themselves in the mirror and then go and hand themselves in. No hiding.
exactly, i was also quite shocked at the rush by the guardian to print unsubstantiated claims
that the russian state was directly responsible for this despicable act, the so called experts
they quote "forget" that civilian aircraft have transponders and the missile system alleged
to have shot down the plane has a IFF system (as have all radars since 1939?). this means they
are suggesting that the russian state deliberately ordered the downing of a civilian aircraft,
a act which assumes russia(ns) are not only irredeemably evil but staggeringly stupid, why commit
such a act when it is directly conflicts with their strategic interests.
i would think it more likely, and would be less controversial, if the russians had started a
ground war in the ukraine and droned its president, than to shoot down a civilian plane in the
hope of achieving what exactly?
Spanish dispatcher who led the plane confirmed there were two Ukrainians jet near by few minutes
before plane crashed:
"El avión B 777 voló escoltado por 2 cazas de ukraine hasta minutos antes, de desaparecer de
los radares,"
"The plane flew B 777 escorted by two fighter ukraine until minutes before disappearing from
the radar," https://twitter.com/spainbuca
At least maybe this time we will know who is responsible, updates seems to come up quickly.
Eh, I can confirm the Spanish translation, and that the page looks pretty genuine, though it
is skewed against the Ukrainians, with pictures of "Ukrainian war crimes".
The guy works as
an Air Traffic Controller in Eastern Ukraine.
Ukraine compra armas, las carga en sus aviones, pilotados por pilotos mercenarios, matan
ciudadanos en el este, pero acusarán a rusia
"Ukraine buys weapons, carried in planes piloted by mercenaries, kill civilians in the East,
but blame the Russians."
I have no idea whether the allegation is true, but one certainly can't imagine that the Twitter
feed is a neutral source.
Well, there are only three parties capable of this act in the area....Ukraine, the rebels, and
Russia. Ukraine and Russia both should have the ability to identify a civilian aircraft with
it's transponder going, and neither have a motive to down an airliner. The rebels are the ones
who don't have the infrastructure behind their captured missile systems to double check a targets
identity.
This was a tragedy, and a screw up of colossal proportions. It is a first rate example of
what can happen when yokels get their hands on high tech military equipment without having the
systems or procedures in place to verify their targets.
However, a report on the website of Russian state television from late June described
how the rebels in Donetsk had taken control of of a Ukrainian missile defence facility which
was equipped with Buk systems. The report said that the rebels planned to "defend the sky
over Donetsk" using the missile system.
The "Buk" system (SA-11) is capable of shooting down a plane at 33,000 ft.
Many of the posters on here will pretend they know who did this, but they don't know, and probably
never will.
The Americans and Ukrainians will work together to produce some 'evidence' which 'proves' it
was the russians. The russians will do likewise 'proving' it was the Ukrainians. Us plebs will
never know the truth.
If a country at war imposes a no-fly zone over their disputed airspace up to a height of 32,000
feet, why would an airline risk travelling a tad above that zone at 33,000 feet? What if you
encountered severe turbulence at that height? What provision would there be for an emergency
landing? It doesn't make sense that anyone should be flying over that disputed and violent zone.
I'd assumed nobody was.
True, and maybe they were being cautious in specifying a floor of 32,000 feet, but still, I've
been on a flight on which the crew cruised at various heights from 37,000ft down to 17,000ft
to try and avoid turbulence. You would have thought no airline would accept flying in such a
restricted strata of airspace.
Normally, the correct response would be to wait and see what evidence emerges. In this part
of the world, however, you can be sure that the "truth" will never be known.
Rubbish like saying separatists mistakenly shot down the plane?
No one did this by mistake. The plane was 30,000 ft. They could not have just pointed and
shot. You've got to use sophisticated radar and weaponry to take out a plane at that height.
And even the rebels could work out that this was a passenger jet and not a military one, which
would be much lower in height. And you have to be a bit odd to think that the rebels would take
a pot shot at a passenger plane flying toward Russian airspace. What do you think the 'dictator'
Putin would do to them if they shot down 300 Russians, accidentally or otherwise?
And can we stop the rubbish about the Russian military? They would know that it was a Malaysian
passenger jet. Why would they shoot that down? Is Putin planning to declare war on Malaysia?
"The Ukrainian government accused the rebels of downing the jet"
Ukrainian government?
"Ukrainian missile defence facility which was equipped with Buk systems."
An opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information seems to be the
point of view of all. Let us not start another war. Conjecture was and is the basis for the
coverage of Ukraine. Let us seek truth from the facts.
The separatists have neither means nor motive for such a strike, and yet according to the Guardian:
"Pro-Russia rebels are blamed as airliner is downed over Ukraine, close to Russian border"
These are nebulous assertions with no basis and not fig of sense to it. The Guardian seems desperate
for a war and to be in league with fascists and ultra-nationalists.
I think we are missing the point here. The airlines have been playing with peoples lives for
months flying over one of the most dangerous warzones in the world at the moment and havent
even considered that this will happen because it would cost money to divert flights. They should
be sued to bankruptcy!
I very much pity the poor people on this flight, who had nothing to do with the conflict and
did not deserve what happened to them.
I'm going to treat this as an accidental shooting down
unless confirmed otherwise. Not to say they didn't mean to fire but that they thought they were
shooting at a transport plane or bomber. I don't think either side would start deliberately
blowing up passengers, not least because of the publicity damage it will do.
This is surely a tragic error. I can't see a motive for shooting down an airliner. It reflects
badly on all sides. We feel of course for the innocent victims.
Discredit the separatists and Russia , force the hand of Europeans to adopt tougher sanctions
against Russia (phase 3) , get countries that were neutral so far to empathize and side with
the Ukrainian authorities , prepare international public opinion for sending troops there among
other motives .
Otherwise it could be an accident indeed, though shooting down an airplane at this altitude
requires powerful radars that would also identify the type of aircraft so it sounds quite unlikely
but entirely possible
BUK missile systems were reputedly. delivered to the Ukrainian army the day before. (Wednesday)
The other "coincidence" is that the paths of this plane and Putins crossed somewhere near Warsaw
just before the crash. There also could be a superficiel similarity between the two. At the
moment It seems there is a high probability that the Ukranians were responsible.
"I can say that Putin's plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point
and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100
meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft -
15:44 Moscow time," a source told the news agency on condition of anonymity.
This is the Interfax report. NOTE that it is the only one, and has been contradicted, so take
any and all "expert" reports, including those from Kiev or the US with a large amount
of salt.
So now that the Russians have sole possession of the black box, you KNOW they are going to lie
and blame this on Ukraine. They are just salivating over this right now. The U.S. had better
investigate themselves quickly to defend Ukraine.
The black box will NOT tell who fired. It doesn't record that, unless the pilots visually identified
who was shooting at them from ten kilometres up in the air.
Fatal blunder? Sophisticated false flag? Unless the perpetrators admit to attacking a civilian
plane, the answer to this will never be known. So, it will never be known.
But, always be wary of the side that seeks to gain most from the incident.
And, always be wary of the side that seeks to use the deaths of innocent people to justify
the death of other innocent people in response. If they are prepared to kill innocent people
in response, you can be certain they are the kind of people prepared to have killed in the first
place. Listen carefully to the commentators.
I hope we are both wrong as well, but like you touched on, the only people who benefit from
wars is the arms dealers and Corporate giants (ie banks and the pharmaceutical companies) and
of course the World leaders! Sadly, the people are the collateral.
The most reliable info so far can be found here - tweets by the Spanish dispatcher:
https://twitter.com/spainbuca
Note: he says that there were two Ukrainian military airlines following the Malaysian plane;
and he also questions how the Ukrainian authorities announced so swiftly that the airplane "had
exploded".
Separately, the freedom-fighters (aka as "pro-Russian separatists") do not have the capability
of shooting down a plane at the height it was flying.
Notwithstanding the above, it is a bit early to speculate. Let's see what the conclusions
will be derived based on the evidence in the black box (allegedly already found).
Which is utterly absurd. Ypu think the Ukrainians want to provoke a full scale invasion by Russia
by shooting its president put of the sky? Ludicrous propaganda.
LIVE UPDATES:Malaysia Airlines MH17 plane crash in Ukraine
"I can say that Putin's plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and
the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters.
The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft - 15:44 Moscow
time," a source told the news agency on condition of anonymity.
Amazing how so many people on this site have intimate knowledge of what's really going on over
there. You'd think they'd be in high level crisis meetings right now, not posting from their
mom's basements.
BTL Cobra meetings already called for. We will do everything, everything to avert further losses
of Malaysian airliners. This nation stands united in both our sorrow and determination to have
Ukraine join NATO no matter what some of their population wishes.
Sub headline: "Pro-Russia rebels are blamed as airliner comes down in east Ukraine"
They are only being 'blamed' by Kiev. In the absence of proof at this stage why can't the
UK press remain unbias?
There is also cause to suspect possible Kiev troops involvement - take a look at the red
blue stripe markings on the Malaysian plane - it looks like Russian markings - and Kiev untrained
forces made a dreadful error.
Inevitably there is a lot of speculation at the moment. Rest assured, the waters will be muddied
by accusation and counter accusation. It is hardly surprising that Kiev will try to blame the
rebels. Hopefully it should become apparent from satellite intelligence who fired what and where.
My wife overflew this region on an Austrian Airlines flight recently without a mention that
it was passing through a war zone. Who decides when diversions are necessary? The airlines themselves
it seems.
I have only one important question for this situation. How is it possible that airplane flew
through territory where constantly persist a national war? I think It's unacceptably.
Commercial aircraft flew over Vietnam during the Vietnam War. However, in recent years, there
is an increased threat of groups getting hold of the type of weapons that can threaten airliners
above 30,000ft.
Obviously, and without the benefit of hindsight, it would be sensible to avoid the airspace
of areas of conflict. Sadly, there is conflict in quite a of lot of places.
If, and I stress the word 'if', it was shot down by the rebels, then it quite possible that
the Ukrainians set it up. The aircraft was under the control of the Ukrainian air traffic control.
They could deliberately have routed the aircraft over this spot, knowing full well what the
consequences could be.
"Missile destroys Malaysia Airlines plane over Ukraine and kills 295 people"
I am not an expert, but, I think that if a plane is hit by a missile while flying, it would
explode while on the air, not crash and explode on the ground, as this seems to be the case
according to several videos available online. Besides, why didn't it happen before? this was
not the first commercial plane flying through that area.
Because this tragedy can be used politically by the countries at war in Ukraine, i.e. the
USA and Russia, to blame each other or their minions, we will never know the truth. It might
even be something planned by either side in this conflict.
As usual, other countries pay the price, remember the Cold War? And the media is not really
helping to inform, it's just trying to get more clicks on their websites.
I am not an expert, but, I think that if a plane is hit by a missile while flying, it would
explode while on the air, not crash and explode on the ground
Wouldn't that depend on which part of the aircraft was hit by the missile?
These weapons are designed to spread shrapnel and a blast wave to bring down their intended
target. Most suface to air missiles are also specifically designed to detonate when they reach
a certain proximity to the target and do not rely on making direct contact. They carry a relatively
small expolsive charge, the majority of the missile containing the motors to drive it and the
homing mechanisms. A plane as large as an airliner could in fact sustain damage and even keep
flying but most likely would have received catastrophic damage to it engines or wing but potentially
to any part of the fuselage. Primary explosions could well be followed by secondary or the plane
may have largely retained its structural integrity and due to the aviation fuel contained in
the wings exploded on impact. It is not proven yet a missile was involved but to my understanding
there is nothing I have seen or has so far been described that precludes a missile strike. However
I'll leave it to the experts to give a definitive answer.
Oh somebody please shut him up. This new mouthpiece of US propaganda just next to Russia.
As if he knew it even before the plane got shot down.
They are using same tactics against Russia what Israel uses against Palestinians to justify
war/sanctions. Welcome to the new cold war. They are tired of Muslims now something else had
to be invented.
Yes, and prepare yourself for the fact that there won't be a proper, impartial investigation
into the incident for the public to know about. A deluge of lies, indeed it will be.
Am I being too cynical? No, I don't think so, just observed too many of these murky doings
and the inevitable dodgy, white-washy 'investigations'.
According to the Peoples Republic of Donbass web-site, the Kiev army declared they discovered
that separatists possessed surface to air missiles capable of hitting targets at 10km only 30
mins before they shot down the Malaysian airliner.
Missile destroys Malaysia Airlines plane over Ukraine and kills 295 people? On what evidence?
A single accusation from someone most likely to profit from it? Hardly independent, accurate
journalism. Where is the second source? Are the Guardian so desperate for readers (and subscribers)
that they now bend the truth in their headlines further than The Mail Online?
I have to take issue with this piece in The Guardian about previous passenger planes shot down
by missiles
On 3 July 1988 the US warship USS Vincennes fired a surface-to-air missile to shoot down
Iran Air flight 655 travelling from Bandar Abbas in Iran to Dubai. All 290 passengers, mostly
Iranians on a pilgramage to Mecca, and all the crew were killed. US Navy officials later
said the Vincennes' crew believed they were firing at an Iranian F14 jet fighter,
the plane was off the usual commercial route and did not respond to requests to change course.Iran called it "a barbaric massacre".
This is either a journalist who hasn't read the reports into the incident or simply sloppy
journalism that smacks of continuing propaganda!
A simple look at Wikipedia and the relevant (belated) US reports from the time tells us that:
The attack took place in Iranian airspace, over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian
Gulf, and on the flight's usual flight path. The aircraft, an Airbus A300 B2-203, was destroyed
by SM-2MR surface-to-air missiles fired from the Vincennes.
The airliner was transmitting the correct transponder "squawk" code typical of a civilian
aircraft and maintained English-speaking radio contact with appropriate air traffic control
facilities.
The US Government grudgingly conceded:
When questioned in a 2000 BBC documentary, the U.S. government stated in a written answer
that they believed the incident may have been caused by a simultaneous psychological condition
amongst the 18 bridge crew of the Vincennes called 'scenario fulfillment', which is said to
occur when persons are under pressure. In such a situation, the men will carry out a training
scenario, believing it to be reality while ignoring sensory information that contradicts the
scenario. In the case of this incident, the scenario was an attack by a lone military aircraft
This is almost certainly the case, but to continue to repeat misinformation about US responsibility
for the disaster is surely bad journalism...at best!
the only thing I know for sure is that the ukrainian fascist junta backed by the us world terrorists
would do anything to drag europa into a war with russia
Perhaps we were better off as cavemen when one could only kill one person at a time with your
weapons. 295 lives and extended families forever shattered because of trigger-happy psychopaths
manning the globe looking for victims.
An afterthought; why would a commercial airplane fly
over the war zone? It is an insanity as the war itself.
The USA as the capital on neoliberal world has very powerful financial tools to hit dissenters and
countries who try to pursue independent foreign policy. They also hold keys to many technologies used
in Russia.
Dmitri Petrov, analyst at Nomura, says Russia's energy giants face financial headaches,
and could struggle to raise funding for new exploration programme:
Here's a flavour of Petrov's latest research note:
The listed firms will find it difficult to attract financing for new projects, with the Rosneft
and Exxon joint exploration in Arctic being among the primary concerns. The companies will also
find is much more costly to roll over their debt in hard currency, particularly the US dollar
as US financial institutions are now prohibited from financing these entities.
Rollover wise, Rosneft is most affected with $13.6bn due to be repaid this year, Gazprombank
has $1bn in December, the others have no repayments this year.
But that's not all...
A much more severe impact comes from the signalling implications that have spillover effects
for the general economy. Foreign banks in the US and Europe will become much more concerned
about credit risk exposure to Russian enterprises, increasing funding costs and in some cases
refusing to provide funding all together.
There is an additional impact for Russian tradable assets, which will once again become more
volatile as the market will likely read into the political headlines more carefully, taking
the tail risk of third level sanctions more seriously.
The oil price has been pushed up today, following predictions that Rosneft et
al could struggle to raise funds for new Arctic exploration.
A barrel of US crude oil is up $1.1 per barrel, to $102.32, while Brent crude rose $0.6 to $107.79.
Novatek has insisted that US sanctions won't scupper its operations.
Having seen its shares pummelled this morning, the gas producer hit back against claims that
it will struggle to finance its work in the Arctic. It pledged to take the "necessary measures"
to push on with its major projects.
RUSSIA'S NOVATEK SAYS U.S. SANCTIONS DO NOT HINDER ITS PRODUCTION AND COMMERCIAL ACTIVITY
NOVATEK SAYS MAJOR PROJECTS WILL GO AHEAD AS PLANNED
NOVATEK SAYS WILL TAKE "NECESSARY MEASURES" FOR FINANCING ITS LNG* PROJECTS WITH INTERNATIONAL
PARTNERS
* - Liquid natural gas
Novatek is partnered with France's Total, and CNPC of China, to exploit LNG reserves in the Arctic.
Despite this pledge, though, Novatek's shares are still down almost 9%.
Back to Russia, and European business groups are crying foul over the sanctions announced
last night.
Germany's trade association, BGA, fears that Russia will hit back with sanctions
of his own, in a "spiralling" tit-for-tat scenario.
Jens Nagel of the BGA told Reuters:
"I wouldn't put it past President Vladimir Putin to impose retaliatory measures to save face,
as was the case after the first level of sanctions."
The Association
of European Businesses, a lobby group, has claimed that 'European investors' disagree
with the sanctions (a rather sweeping claim, frankly).
It also hints that the Obama administration is being cute, with sanctions "more focused on the
partners of the European businesses than on the partners of American companies."
Russia's benchmark MICEX plummeted 2.6% at opening on Thursday while Russia's biggest oil company,
Rosneft, was nearly 5% down.
The new and broader US sanctions against Russia target two major energy firms, a pair of powerful
financial institutions, eight weapons firms and four individuals. They are intended to end the insurgency
in eastern Ukraine that is widely believed to be backed by the Kremlin.
In televised comments on Thursday, Putin said the sanctions were "driving into a corner" relations
between the two countries as well as the interests of US companies and "the long-term national interests
of the US government and people".
Putin warned Washington that the sanctions would lead to a backlash
against American companies working in Russia.
The most noticeable companies on the list are Rosneft and Russia's largest independent gas producer
Novatek. Both are now barred from getting long-term loans from US entities.
Rosneft has a multibillion-dollar deal with ExxonMobil, which among other things allowed Exxon
to develop lucrative oil fields in Russia.
"We gave this American company the right to work on the shelf," Putin said, speaking during a
state visit in Brazil. "So, what, the United States
does not want it to work there now?"
Putin made no mention of the additional sanctions levied on Wednesday by the European Union,
which urged the European Investment Bank to sign no new financing agreements with Moscow and was
suspending operations in Russia financed by the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development.
European nations have much closer energy and other economic ties with Russia and have not imposed
as tough sanctions as the United States.
Igor Sechin, Rosneft's CEO and close confidante of Putin, dismissed the sanctions as "unfounded,
subjective and unlawful", adding that his company "had no role in the events in Ukraine".
"Sanctions have a boomerang effect and without any doubt they will push U.S.-Russian
relations into a dead end, and cause very serious damage, and it undermines the long term security
interests of the US State and its people."
"This means that U.S. companies willing to work in Russia will lose their competitiveness next
to other global energy companies." Putin said the sanctions will hurt Exxon Mobil Corp which has
been given the opportunity to operate in Russia. "So, do they not want it to work there?
They are causing damage to their major energy companies."
Putin said the sanctions will hurt Exxon Mobil Corp which has been given the opportunity to operate
in Russia. "So, do they not want it to work there? They are causing damage to their major
energy companies."
CognacAndMencken
I find it fascinating how a bunch of utopian libertarians at ZeroHedge now idolize the latest
communist dictator from Russia. Put up a picture of Putin with a gun, and you guys literally
get an erection, don't you? Reagan would be so proud of you....
Infinite QE
Probably because he's the only world leader who is banning GMO's, supporting families and can
speak more than a single, intelligent sentence without the need for a teleprompter.
...Among the firms targeted were some of the most prominent in Russia, including Rosneft, the
state-owned oil company and largest oil producer; Gazprombank, the financial arm of Gazprom, the
giant state-controlled natural gas producer; Novatek, another Russian natural gas producer that
has been competing with Gazprom; and VEB, the state economic development bank.
The administration also targeted eight state-owned defense firms; four Russian government officials,
including an aide to President Vladimir V. Putin and a top official in the Federal Security Service;
an oil shipping facility in Crimea, which Moscow annexed; a pro-Russian separatist leader; and the
rump rebel organizations in the eastern Ukrainian cities of Donetsk and Luhansk.
Russia quickly denounced the moves and vowed to retaliate. "We condemn those politicians
and bureaucrats who are behind such actions," Sergei A. Ryabkov, the deputy foreign minister, told
the Interfax news agency. Mr. Ryabkov said that Moscow would respond with countermeasures that
would be "quite painful and serious."
... ... ...
The new American actions will bar affected Russian companies from the American debt markets
for loans over 90 days, meaning that they will still be able to conduct day-in, day-out business
with overnight loans but will find it harder to finance medium- and long-term activity, officials
said.
European officials were unwilling to take parallel actions, given their far more extensive economic
ties with Russia. Trade between Russia and Europe dwarfs that between Russia and the United States,
and much of Europe depends on Russian energy.
Additionally, while some European countries, particularly in the eastern region once dominated
by the Soviet Union, were more supportive of tougher measures, generating a consensus among all
28 members of the European Union has been problematic.
Selected Comments (selected from Reader Picks category)
Nancy, Great Neck 3 hours ago
This strikes me as senseless and self-defeating policy. Russia has been trying to bring a peaceful
settlement of the unrest in Ukraine and rather than support such diplomacy, the United States
finds sanctions against Russia to be desirable.
President Obama seems intent on vilifying
Russia and setting us again in a Cold War, but to what possible end? Surely these sanctions
are not supportive of peace in Ukraine. I am startled and dismayed at such policy foolishness.
Phil Greene, Houston Texas
How tiring to read about US threats and sanctions. People are weary of this kind of nonsense.
We make things worse wherever we go. War, threats of war, and sanctions. Who do we get along
with with our endless list of enemies? If the US and Obama are for it, I am against it. We are
not the big kid on the block and the civilized world has passed us by. We are increasingly ignored
and that is good.
nikolai burlakoff, ossining, ny
I doubt that anyone is surprised by the US action. The whole Ukraine issue was a set-up from
the beginning, given that the US supported the ascension of the current rulers. That the US
went after the Russian energy market is also no surprise; it wants the European energy market.
Fortunately, the BRIC agreements will help Russia, as well as, their contract with China. And,
Obama is not making any friends for the US east of Poland. The next president will have quite
a hole to dig the country out of.
Deven Bhan, Madison
We are foolishly recreating an enemy out of Russia while real dangers of Islamic turmoil and
terrorism ( Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, Nigeria) continue unabated. Increased militarism
of China is something which should have our attention. We have no business in looking for trouble
in Russia's backyard and Ukraine's civil war.
Adrienne Lyne, New York
The only important factor in Ukraine is the monthly energy bill that they cannot pay to Russia.
And every day they owe more and more. Neither the EU nor the US will pay it. The economic sanctions
are designed to twist the arm of the Russian government so that it forgives that debt. Not in
the cards.
As to the idiotic fear mongering about Russia wanting to annex Ukraine: why would they? Ukraine's
economy shrank after 1991. It did NOT develop. Its institutions are all destroyed. Russia's
economy is 11 times bigger while the population is only 3 times that of Ukraine's. The reason
Russia annexed Crimea is for its navy and strategic positioning. AND, Crimea was dying to be
annexed (93% of the voters voted for it, which was 87% all living citizens there including infants-according
to this very paper!).
hugken, canada
Everything the US does on the world stage turns out to be wrong and makes the problem worse.
Mind your own business, stay out of world affairs and concentrate on trying to fix your own
dysfunctional country.
Sarah Flowers, Kitty Hawk, NC
Well, if saying goodbye to the US means we get socialized education and health care, equal pay,
a well-funded physical infrastructure, environmental policies informed by current science, and
an overturn of Citizens, all I have to say is, "C YA!"
vs, New York, NY
Putin's "fault" is that he does not serve US interests in Russia. This is why US wants him out
by any means, including a war in Ukraine, and regardless Putin's over 80% approval rating amongst
Russians themselves.
V.G., Hamilton, OH 2 hours ago
Here we go. The real object in this whole overblown crisis is not to help Ukraine. The West
doesn't give a damn about Ukraine. They are a basket case and huge liability. The whole game
is to cut off Russia's trade with Europe. And it's working just fine. Putin can't control the
adventurers in Eastern Ukraine and Poroshenko keeps pouring shells into civilian homes and saying
he's a man of peace. How many times can you poke the Russian Bear and not expect him to bite
back? The West may lose a hell of a lot more from this whole fiasco than they expect. Russia
may be isolated but they aren't going to disappear. Their friends in China, India, Brazil and
South Africa will support them. Meantime Brussels slobbers after power to become the Washington
of Europe. Who the hell needs them?
USSAmerican, Orlando
Russia is laughing at us right now. Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa (BRICS) are
forming a mini-international monetary fund that will eventually crush the US Dollar and spark
hyper-inflation like the US has never seen. Obama's foreign relation policies are threatening
our sovereignty while American citizens have fallen asleep. The voting public had better wake
up before the November elections or else you can say good-bye to the good 'ole U.S. of A.
Equilibrium, Russia
What's a naivity. The USA don't care about Ukrain, the USA in general care about yourself only
and their unlimited hungry for consuming. Ukrain is just a tool to seize European energy market.
And.. Novorussia (Odessa, Kharkov, Donetsk, Lugansk) has never been a territory of Ukrain before
Communists took over Russia in 1917. If you so hate Soviet Union, why do you accept gifts from
Soviet Union (Novorussia, Crimea) ?
mzo1918, Massachusetts
Europe is not supporting these sanctions and with the US regime continually getting caught meddling
in the affairs of their "allies," the EU is likely brokering their own deal independent of Washington.
This regime has alienated Germany to the point that their will be no significant dealings between
the two nations until 2017.
Judyw, cumberland, MD
Europe is not with the US on this one. THe Europeans are right. A lot things that are happening
in E. Ukraine are the fault of Poroshenko. He is litteraly slaughtering his citizens which his
artillery barrages - what is his plan to level all the cities? That is what it seems like and
he needs to be stopped.
We should not provide aid to the Ukrainian army - this is not our
fight, it is their fight. We need to stay out of it. Also a lot of the Ukrainian claims are
not verifiable.
In many places you see the red and black ribbons the symbols of Right Sektor mixed in with
the Army. So the army has no problem using fascists as part of the army. We should have a problem
with that.
This is a problem for the EU to deal with on their own without US interference. It is not
a NATO problem and we should not be arming the Ukraine. We don't really know who they are -
apparently there are neo-nazi's mized in with the army. They have plenty of wealthy oligarchs
that can buy them equipment we need to stay out of it.
As for Crimea - forget it. It is gone. We don't see to grash that fact. THe rest of Europe
understand, I guess we are just a little slow to catch on. Crimea is Russian now and it should
never been lett with Urkaine as we should have realized that Krhuschev's acts in 1954 were probably
not legal. We simply took advantage of Yeltsein in 1991 to keep it with Urkaine. Too bad it
was not Putin who negotiated in 1991.
Howard Kaplan, Belmont Ma
Ukraine is part of a US policy to box in Russia and control the oil pipelines to Europe. Control
the Euro Asian midland and you control the world. Ukraine is part of that process. A senseless
policy but Russia hatred runs deep and long.
rusalka, NY
So I guess those idealists who fought against the British at the end of the 18th century were
also not rational when they fought and died against a powerful and corrupt entity with the hope
of starting life anew in a democratic and free society. I suppose you would rather see Ukrainians
just roll over and let Putin do whatever he wants to them.
These sanctions against Russia are to help Ukraine choose its own path to economic and social
independence and prosperity. And if you think these economic sanctions aren't having an impact
on Russia then I think that economics degree must not be worth the paper it was printed on.
William Verick, Eureka, California
But what if a few rockets stray from Ukraine into Russia proper? Will the U.S. then think it
justified that Russia "defends itself" by dropping white phosphorous and cluster munitions on
residential neighborhoods in Kiev? If Russia tells the residents of Kiev that they should leave
town because Russia is going to destroy Kiev from the air? If Russia plans an invasion of Ukraine
in order to capture and or kill the Ukraine's leadership because Russia holds them personally
responsible for the horrible rockets that were fired from Ukraine into Russia?
Will the U.S. use it's Security Council veto power to protect Russia from any sanctions votes?
BillnAZ, Mesa, AZ
The sanctions assume that the US dollar will continue to carry international clout. China, Russia
and other nations are reviewing and revamping their finsncial systems to provide another internationally
accepted currency. The more the US pressures these countries with sanctions, the higher the
probability that the US Dollar will loose its luster. The USD and the EU will devalue when the
Asian (also to include Russia) and Middle Eastern oil countries establish another accepted currency.
They will be able to back this currency with hard assets as opposed to the US method of printing
more paper.
Alexander K., Minnesota
This "escalation" is merely domestic US politics. It boosts the appearance of toughness to be
anti-Russian. It also provides support for Russian own nationalists and xenophobes. From a foreign
policy point of view the US really screwed up on Russia ever since the USSR implosion. Instead
of building a better world, we divide and perpetuate conflicts.
It is absurd to think
that Russia is going to give up on Ukraine. Ukraine is home to the cradle of Russian history,
or at least that is the historical narrative. A third of its population speaks Russian as their
native language. Russians and Ukrainians are widely intermarried and intermixed. Gorbachev had
Russian and Ukrainian parents, as an example.
We're butting into a Civil War, and it is never a good idea to get caught up in other people's
domestic disputes. Russia and Ukraine are in it for the long-term. The US has a habit of short-term
involvements and retreat.
jamil simaan, beirut
What exactly does the US government want Russia to do? Although Russia is certainly involved
in Ukraine's conflict, It is difficult to ascertain exactly how much it is capable of changing
the course of the conflict. But no matter how much input it has, Moscow is never going to get
the pro-Moscow camp to put down their arms and stop fighting if the pro-West camp keeps calling
for revenge and cleansing.
Ukraine is the birthplace of the Russian people, and it is also a huge mess of decay, corruption,
and poverty. For those reasons, I fully believe that 1) Russia very much values peace and cooperation
with Ukraine and 2) Russia does not want to be responsible for Ukraine and will not annex it.
I interpret the pressure that the US government has been putting on Russia as a belligerent
reaction to Lavrov making a fool of Kerry over Syria and a general lack of respect that Russians
have for American efforts in the Middle East and China. Perhaps the Russians have been too arrogant
in the way they've treated the US, but it is folly for the US to so deliberately attack Russia
in such a sensitive issue.
Goresh, Brisbane
Why is the U S not imposing economic sanctions on other countries, such as Sweden, for failing
to stem the tide of arms and fighters into Ukraine?
Mikael Skillt is a Swedish sniper, with
seven years' experience in the Swedish Army and the Swedish National Guard. He is currently
fighting with the Azov Battalion, a pro-Ukrainian volunteer armed group in eastern Ukraine.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28329329
Is it because they are fascist groups fighting to support the U S sanctioned Ukraine government?
Adrienne Lyne, New York
wrong. According to the American officials who were involved in Russia when Putin first took
the office of the presidency, "knives were drawn right away because he (Putin) did not play
ball." Read Stephen Cohen's book "Soviet Fates and Lost Alternatives." ((http://www.amazon.com/Soviet-Fates-Lost-Alternatives-Stalinism-ebook/dp/...
AreWeThereYet, Pittstown, NJ
Just like the talking point in 2008 when Georgian attacks on Ossetia were countered by Russian
intervention there is no apparent desire for annexation of whole dysfunctional countries. Only
adjustments to those regions clamoring for independence (or reunification) from the arbitrary
political borders created by the sudden breakup of the Soviet Union. Lest we forget, Georgia
remains an independent state despite the dire hyperventilation in our media at that time and
hush up since then.
If Russia wanted to invade and annex Ukraine by force it could have done
so 2 months ago. Instead it is waiting for the current government to either fulfill it's public
promise to seek compromise or further discredit itself by killing civilians and not negotiating
greater autonomy.
Alex, Moscow
The decision of Mr. Obama is regrettable and strategically short-sighted at that. The economies
of the Russia and China structurally complement each other. These sanctions in effect push Russia
right into China's embrace. With giant Russian "gas station" at its disposal, China will surely
become a much more formidable opponent to US power. While I do not care about the perspective
for US, I find that for Russia the role of such "gas station" is not very appealing. This is
a lose-lose game.
"Disgusted", Texas
I'm confused - we are upping sanctions (EU not so supportive) against Russia for attempting
to get back territory they consider part of Russia - while we have been supporting Israel with
money and arms (for years) as they establish settlements in Palestine! Is there a disconnect
here?
Paul Cohen, Hartford CT
Who are we to sanction any country for military intervention?
U.S. SOF's are in 134 countries (FY 2013).
We do know SOF raids have occurred in Yemen, Somilia, Libya, Pakistan, Sudan and Iraq (after
official end of war).
Armed Drones have been used in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia and Libya
"Without a clear picture of where the military's covert forces are operating and what they
are doing, Americans may not even recognize the consequences of and blowback from our expanding
secret wars as they wash over the world. But if history is any guide, they will be felt - from
Southwest Asia to the Mahgreb, the Middle East to Central Africa, and, perhaps eventually, in
the United States as well.
"… with Special Operations missions kept under tight wraps, Americans have little understanding
of where their troops are deployed, what exactly they are doing, or what the consequences might
be down the road. As retired Army Colonel Andrew Bacevich, professor of history and international
relations at Boston University, has noted, the utilization of Special Operations forces during
the Obama years has decreased military accountability, strengthened the "imperial presidency,"
and set the stage for a war without end. "In short," he wrote at TomDispatch, "handing war to
the special operators severs an already too tenuous link between war and politics; it becomes
war for its own sake."
Barack Obama announced a significant escalation in sanctions against Russia on Wednesday, with
measures targeting some of the country's largest energy corporations and banks as punishment for
Moscow's alleged continued support for Ukrainian separatists.
The US president said the intensification of sanctions, which includes the freezing of assets
belonging to defence companies and a handful of senior Russian officials, was intended to remind
Moscow "that its actions in Ukraine have consequences".
Obama said the measures had been coordinated with European leaders, who late on Wednesday were
meeting in Brussels to agree on a separate package of action aimed at nudging Russian president
Vladimir Putin toward a new stance in Ukraine. The EU package, which could include restrictions
on lending for investments projects in Russia, were not expected to go as far as those announced
in Washington.
"Along with our allies, with whom I've been coordinating closely over the last several days and
weeks, I've repeatedly made it clear that Russia must halt the flow of weapons of fighters across
the border into Ukraine, that Russia must urge separatists to release hostages, and support a ceasefire,
that Russia needs to pursue internationally mediated talks and agreed to meaningful monitors on
the border. I have made this clear to Mr Putin," Obama said in a televised statement from the White
House.
He added: "So far Russia has failed to take any of the steps that I mentioned. In fact Russia's
support for the separatists, and violations of Ukraine's sovereignty, has continued."
The sanctions announced by Obama, and explained in more detail to reporters by senior administration
officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity, fall short of targeting entire swathes of the
Russian economy, an option of last resort that Washington and its EU partners believe should be
held in reserve, to be used in the event of more overt military intervention by Moscow.
However the new package of sanctions goes further than the travel bans and asset freezes the
administration announced in the wake of pro-Russian militia taking control of Crimea in March, a
move widely condemned by the west but followed, weeks later, by pro-Russian separatists moving to
control cities in the east of Ukraine.
The conflict has continued unabated since, with sporadic fighting and casualties among both separatists
and Ukrainian military forces. The election in May of Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko had yielded
hope of a peace settlement, and the US and its allies have praised the new regime in Kiev's efforts
to seek a negotiated end to the conflict with separatists.
Last month Ukraine signed the EU association agreement – the partnership deal that the country's
former president, Viktor Yanukovych, under pressure from Moscow, held back from signing, prompting
the violent protests in Kiev that triggered the 2014 conflict.
In recent weeks, US officials have solidified their view that, while making some gestures toward
mollifying the conflict, Putin has allowed the ostensibly internal Ukrainian conflict to continue
while global attention has switched to the turmoil in the Middle East.
seen2empires, 16 July 2014 10:55pm
American Hypocrisy 101.
After Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Egypt, all the color coups
at the Russia's borders, Cuba, Argentina, etc., etc. , etc. they are still have the nerve...
O'Bomber is delusional.
Zoltán Koskovics -> seen2empires, 16 July 2014 10:59pm
I think he is incompetent. He leaves foreign policy to others. They are delusional.
freeandfair, 16 July 2014 11:17pm
Lol, how convenient for the US - imposing sanctions on their competition. Russia and the US
compete head to head in the weapons and energy markets. Of course, there is no self-interest
involved here on the US side. It is all for freedom and democracy !
Interrogation | Soldier from "Artemovsk" battalion tasked with torturing
"Where did you take the bodies after torturing them to death?"
-We took them near the lake and dumped them there.
"Did you bury them, or did you dump them in the lake?"
-Depends...
In comments read the complete transcript by David Stickney...
Produced no doubt by the same people who bought you the fictitious crucifixion of a three year
old carried by RT that was hastily pulled as being far too transparent a lie.
The Chekist
Junta is getting a little desperate and unsubtle with its propaganda.
So back to the thingy I wrote a million times, and really should have just saved on a notepad
to copy/paste here.
There will not be any real sanctions. The ECB went to a negative rate. The USA is one month
away from recession. They can't afford it.
Of course there might be ''sanctions'', but that is just a hissy fit.
On the last attempts to sanction Russia, here is a fun fact: today the Moscow stock exchange
and the ruble trade higher than they did before the first day of ''sanctions''. That is why
the quotation marks are necessary.
Isolated statistics like that are somewhat meaningless.
When the access to credit lines for
the likes of Rosneft and Gazprombank are cut off in tandem with the continuation of capital
flight the effect will be
kenalexruss 17 July 2014 12:16am
One thing Russia learned during the Czar and Soviet eras was to scrap together and survive.
I'm sure sanctions cause drama but not to the tune of capitulation. Hunker down America, it's
gonna take awhile for this to work...
Go ahead with sanctions. The American ones are irrelevant, by the way. I mean the European sanctions,
but there's no comment possible on that parallel article.
Russia is patient for now, but can strike back terribly by next winter. To the tune of this
old song: it's gonna be a long cold christmas without you (ehm, Russian gas for Europe, that
is).
If Europe wants to shoot itself in the foot (with a bazooka), they should push forward with
sanctions against Russia. The US might be glad as well to eliminate an economic rival.
Hahahaah...he couldn't get the EU to approve unilateral sanctions against Russia. Instead, he
is settling for more selective sanctions. Yeah, I know, is kind of hard to demand all EU states
and all EU companies to stop doing business with Russia. After all, EU member states aren't
your traditional socialist regimes with a centralized, state owned economy. You can't just say
stop doing with Russia and all businesses would comply.
Also, EU recognizes that any unilateral sanction noncompliance would result in legal liabilities
of each EU member state and each EU company. America will sanction them. Eric Holder would fine
them and to ban them from doing business in the US. No single EU state would ever put their
own economy and businesses in such a situation. Yeah, Obama, keeps on lying......
Back outside the police station, I notice a flag that wasn't there before. It's red and black:
the banner of the Ukrainian ultranationalist group Right Sector. That will make some people feel
deeply uncomfortable in this mainly Russian-speaking town.
Comment by
MyDogLikesPorridge
"This Article originally appeared in Russian on RFE/RL". Who are RFE/RL? From Wikipedia: "They were
founded as an anti-communist news source in 1949 by the National Committee for a Free Europe, as part
of a large-scale Psychological Operation during the Cold War. RFE/RL received funds from the Central
Intelligence Agency until 1972.[5] During the earliest years of Radio Free Europe's existence, the CIA
and the U.S. Department of State issued broad policy directives, and a system evolved where broadcast
policy was determined through negotiation among the CIA, the U.S. State Department, and RFE staff"
"RFE/RL no longer receives direct funding from the CIA. They now fall under the Broadcasting Board
of Governors. The Broadcasting Board of Governors (BBG) is an independent federal agency of the United
States government. It was previously a department within the United States Information Agency."
"In short, how would you like your CIA propaganda piece, rare or well done?"
This is the face of war - bloody mess. What the good guy was expecting? Everything well organized
and according to a well thought plan? Every war is a story of grave mistakes, the only question
which side will screw up more. But the volunteers were straightforwardly warned that the chances
to come out alive are slim.
And also naivite of the initial fights on the side of rebels that the war will be "gentlemen"
one, - "they will not bomb a new just built airport". They now bomb everything in sight. Reminds
me how Georgian tanks were entertaining themselves sending shells in the basements of apartment
buildings in Tshinvali where Ossetian civilians were hiding.
Well, now everything goes - a la guerre comme a la guerre.
DmitryF -> Vladimir Makarenko, 15 July 2014 5:03pm
I wonder what they will do when they win this war? Do they have enough resources to rebuild
the houses, industries, infrastructure etc.? How are they going to ensure loyalty of the population
who had their life ruined by destruction of their properties and deaths of friends and relatives?
I guess most of refugees won't want to go back. The place will be quite empty, unless they will
introduce some sort of re-population programme as Iosif Stalin did in various places. What will
happen to all those privately funded battalions, will they become unemployed with guns and the
experience to kill?
Vladimir Makarenko DmitryF, 15 July 2014 7:24pm
Kiev & Co will not win this war - because they just cannot - there is no real ground for such
outcome - army doesn't want to really fight, they can use heavy artillery staying several km
away from rebel positions but that's about it.
The private bandit armies of Kolomoisky and Right Sector if do anything then it is stirring
a hatred among locals towards Kiev & Co and provide the rebels with unconditional support- moral
and by men. Can the war go in a guerrilla mode, I think it is possible but not probable. And
in the more bloody way Kiev will try to terrify the population the more local and out of Russia
resistance it will generate.
They really are stupid in Kiev, Donbass successfully stayed during the whole WWII a guerrilla
resistance center to such experts on that as Nazis were. As I see it the only way today out
of this for Kiev to save face and save what is left there from "Ukraine" is ceasefire and to
take a seat at a negotiation table.
The problem is also with the rebels - contrary to the Western agit prop about Russian conspiracy
- there is no undisputed authority on the rebel side, they try to organize themselves but it
is a slow and painful process. As always a problem with popular uprising - figuratively - each
city block has its own unit and a commander, to put them all under an umbrella of centralized
command is very difficult. But it looks it is happening.
Urobulos Vladimir Makarenko, 15 July 2014 9:24pm
The only way they could "win" is if majority of the population don't turn against them. If even
10% are hostile enough to support armed struggle, even after the fall of the DPR, they might
end up with a permanent IRA style insurrection, but on a much wider scale than anything that
happened in Northern Ireland.
I might be misunderstanding, but are you suggesting that the DNR can win in an open military
struggle? No matter how bad the Ukrainian army and National guard perform, it seems their advantage
is way too great for DNR to hold out in the long run. Not without open Russian support that
doesn't seem to be coming. I was under the impression that the fall of Donetsk and Lugansk is
a question of how long DPR forces can delay the inevitable.
I know that both sides claim they will get their inevitable win soon enough, but surely by
now it seems obvious the separatists can only hope for the Russian army to intervene. Not that
destroying the DPR would mean stability, peace and prosperity.
Vladimir Makarenko -> Urobulos, 16 July 2014 12:20am
The situation is too dynamic to try to predict outcome - at least on the side of rebels a serious
consolidation is happening and their numbers are growing by an hour, especially after UA bombing
and shelling towns and villages around Lugansk and Donetsk. The paramilitaries of Kolomoisky
and Right Sector are walking dead there - if anything they may only hope not to get captured
and save the bullet to die easy way.
UA can probably wipe out all resistance around the both cities but it has no chance
to successfully go into the urban fight. All recent military history points to this: the US
basically had to wipe out Falluja - and this is very "easy" low level (2-3 stores max) town.
The more desperate situation becomes the more qualified/unqualified personnel will flow from
Russia and in this case Russian government definitely will be indifferent to flow of arms from
God forgotten army depots full of maybe not state of art but capable weapons. It will definitely
control this flow so that there were no "leaks" during delivery to the rebels - it is a Pandora
box - once started these weapons can easily find a way to the internal Russian black market.
I doubt very much that Russian Army direct interference, the max what Russia may do is announce
"no flight" zone over the rebels. But it can give a very important if not critical help with
intelligence: rebels are much more mobile and hit and run can effectively disrupt UA operational
capabilities. Especially that in the troops there is no moral imperative to fight - rather the
opposite.
All they want is to get the hell out of there. This is why rebels after taking another "POWs"
they just redress them in civilian and send back home. It is a different story with paramilitaries
especially with Western ultra right who joined their ranks.
Urobulos -> Vladimir Makarenko, 16 July 2014 12:36am
You're painting the picture of an imminent collapse of the Ukrainian Army. How does that
fit with the string of cities slipping out of rebel control? Though every city they've fought
in until now is small when compared to Donetsk.
You have to wonder who is telling the truth. At least they agree there are no actual Russian
forces operating in Ukraine.
MyDogLikesPorridge, 15 July 2014 6:25am
"This Article originally appeared in Russian on RFE/RL".
Who are RFE/RL? From Wikipedia:
"They were founded as an anti-communist news source in 1949
by the National Committee for a Free Europe, as part of a large-scale Psychological Operation
during the Cold War. RFE/RL received funds from the Central Intelligence Agency until 1972.[5]
During the earliest years of Radio Free Europe's existence, the CIA and the U.S. Department
of State issued broad policy directives, and a system evolved where broadcast policy was determined
through negotiation among the CIA, the U.S. State Department, and RFE staff"
RFE/RL no longer receives direct funding from the CIA. They now fall under the Broadcasting
Board of Governors. The Broadcasting Board of Governors (BBG) is an independent federal agency
of the United States government. It was previously a department within the United States Information
Agency.
In short, how would you like your CIA propaganda piece, rare or well done?
MrTemecula -> MyDogLikesPorridge, 15 July 2014 6:37am
RFE? Radio Free Europe!
RFE/RL states that its mission is to serve as a surrogate free press in countries where
a free press is banned by the government or not fully established. It maintains 20 local
bureaus, but governments criticised often attempt to obstruct the radios' activities through
a range of tactics, including extensive jamming, shutting down local re-broadcasting affiliates,
or finding legal excuses to close down offices.[65] In many of these countries, RFE/RL and
similar broadcasters provide more reliable domestic news than local sources.
On the background of the fact that John Kerry "recommends" to other countries to do the recount
after the elections in Afghanistan that Victoria Nuland with Geoffrey R. Pyatt decide who will
head Ukraine - this article looks just pathetic))
All this fabricated obscenely.
With the evidence everything is very bad - it's just not.
Marco Franchetti one of the honest
journalists, it is a pity that such today in the West, very little.
Franchetti describes his own personal experience. So does Gasparyan. They haven't conducted
a survey of 100% of the people fighting for separatists. It is very much possible that both
accounts are true.
Bakaro Urobulos 15 July 2014 11:36pm
They form local units and volunteer units separately, which explains difference in their experience.
In Slavyansk, for example, most fighters were locals, and their number grew by factor of 10
since the Kiev started to bomb the city and children and females were evacuated to Russia.
Jeremn andresh 15 July 2014 10:50am
There are volunteers, I was reading about an Afghan who volunteered to serve in eastern Ukraine
for the federalists, but I think it is going too far to call them mercenaries (although Yanukovich
could be supplying money).
I'd be cautious about extracting too much from this, especially as it is RFE reporting (am
I the only one who is uneasy that their reporting is being passed off as news), as there is
as much evidence, if not more, that of the 15,000 rebels the vast majority are from the Donetsk
region.
AlanGF 15 July 2014 8:07am
Do I beleive this....no. No photos of him actually in Ukraine, just in a wood that could have
been anywhere. Reminds me very much of the claimed lookalikes to prove russian involvement which
faded out when shown to be entirely false proganda from the states.
Zoltán Koskovics 15 July 2014 8:49am
Guardian you need to stop cooperating with radio free Europe. It is shameful for a newspaper
of your stature.
VladimirM 15 July 2014 10:01am
So, his turning point was what happened in Odessa. Apparently, for many others as well.
Will be some interviews taken with foreigners from Kiev side? What was their reasoning?
StickyBastard VladimirM 15 July 2014 10:23am
Will be some interviews taken with foreigners from Kiev side? What was their reasoning?
Most probably their identification with the actions and policies of the SS Divisions in WWII.
"In the following incident occurred Georgievka: natsgvardeytsy shot a 6-year-old child. After
that locals armed with hunting rifles and other small arms and attacked the punishers.
Destroyed about fifteen fascist, they left the village and went into the militia. Now, local
residents of nearby communities fear of punitive action. "
14.07.14, Posted by a resident of Kharkov.
"Today talked with an old friend. She retired. Former rentgenlaboranta. She never did not
believe me about the situation in the Donbas. But today ran in terror. She knew what was going
on in the 28th hospital faded. And as familiar - a former paramedic and knows many in the industry,
the staff was honest with her.
Refrigerators clogged with corpses. Only that's not all. According to the medical staff at
the hospital-based groups have been formed on duty. Explain their problem. Littered phones.
All phones belong to the dead. If any phone call or sms comes, they must answer sms Coy style
"All good fight, I can not call.
Do not come, I have everything. "All employees are afraid to send a message to mothers that
their children were killed because they were promised that for one message to be killed. My
friend is not prone to hysteria, and indeed for the United urkainu. "Was . Unless ran screaming
in terror.
Mother read SMS that all is well, when their children for many days lie on the cold shelves
morgue.
Similar information came from Dnepropetrovsk, Odessa, Chernihiv. "
Some participants in the discussion have pretty telling profile. For example
Zaporozhye: Joined: 13 May 2014,
329 comments for the last 30days; 1K comments since registration; list of commented articles represent
almost complete selection any anything connected with Ukraine and Russia... Similar profile has another
prolific commenter prutin registered
Jun 25, 2014 and posted 428 comments since registration (more then 20 comments a day on average). Commented
articles also can serve as excellent guide to anything published by guardian about Ukraine. Max number
of comments per article -- 78.
Unfortunately, Uncle Sam is trying to provoke Russia into military action, so that after the
presstitute media can complain about Russian aggression.
Actually, even a full Russian
invasion of the separatist regions and Odessa would be justified. There have been anti-Russian
pogroms carried out by the so-called Ukrainian military there.
However, it may be costly, given the western media egging the populace against Russia.
Robert Looren de Jong -> Alphysicist, 14 July 2014 6:57pm
could you explain how the us is provoking war as far as i have seen they are not providing weapons
to any separatist or none of their citizens are taking over government buildings
Alphysicist Robert -> Looren de Jong, 14 July 2014 7:01pm
I suppose the $5billion the US gave to the undemocratic government of Poroshenko oligarch is
not really support. Nor is the appearance of aircraft carriers close to Odessa on the Black
Sea.
BTW, where can one read that Russia provided weapons to separatists? (It would be justified,
actually, but I have not read this anywhere yet.)
TheRussianGirl -> Robert Looren de Jong, 14 July 2014 7:09pm
So I suppose when the Head of CIA of the USA visits Kiev it is okey, isn't it? All those people
like Joe Biden, John MacCaine, they are simple advisors, aren't they? Do they advice how to
plant corn in Ukraine?
Сергей Коломойцев -> TheCountOfMontenegro, 14 July 2014 8:14pm
At the moment there is no fact that Russia invaded Ukraine. But there are many facts that the
military of the United States (mercenaries) are present in the Ukraine (see media of Germany).
Among the rebels there are people from Russia, Belarus, but this is a private initiative. As
the International Brigades in Spain in the years 1936-39.
Bakaro -> Bullybyte, 15 July 2014 12:12am
I think what really is happening, is that large part of Kiev troops has been trapped along the
Russian border between anti-Kiev forces and Russia, south from Lugansk. They are effectively
cut off from any supply, and running out of ammunition. Officers are calling their wives asking
for help! The anti-Kiev forces are now hoping to get their hand on tons of Ukrainian tanks and
etc, which might change the war in their favor.
Kiev troops got trapped due to stupidity of their superiors. In fact, many observers predicted
that this is going to happen, but Poroshenko was too eager to get all border under control.
So, now Kiev has nothing else to do but claim Russia involvement, hoping to get help from the
West. Also, distracting Ukrainians from Kiev's own military mistakes.
wombatman -> Zaporozhye, 14 July 2014 9:40pm
Sorry Zaporozhye, I really find your claims to be incredulous.
Since you joined CiF quite recently, you have made a very large number of comments, all concerning
Ukraine or Russia and always biased against Russia, with not even the mildest criticism of Kiev
or any of the ultranationalist groups backing them.
There has not been one non-Russian/non-Ukrainian story you have ever commentated on,
despite your prolific posting rate.
But then since your user name is also a city in Ukraine, you have hardly made a secret of
where you are based.
Worried9876, 14 July 2014 7:02pm
Particular controversy was caused over the weekend when Channel One aired a report claiming
that the Ukrainian army had crucified a three-year-old boy in the central square of Slavyansk,
a rebel stronghold recaptured by Ukrainian forces.
Nothing would surprise anyone from chocolate
man.
Robert Looren de Jong -> Worried9876, 14 July 2014 7:06pm
NegativeCamber -> Worried9876, 14 July 2014 7:13pm
Ahhh good old propaganda.
Alice Ponomareva -> Worried9876, 14 July 2014 7:17pm
I watched the interview with her, not in TV but like all , in internet.
She is Western Ukrainian,
starts from it, and she spoke heavily Ukrainised Russian. She explained she has quarreled with
her mother who stayed back home in Western Ukraine when she moved to Slavyansk. I think what
she said - was in reply to her Mum, to who she continues to prove her choice of habitat place.
I don't know is it true or not, what she described.
She said what she said, and there can be no doubt that the children with her are hers, and
that she is a run-away from the war in Slavyansk, crossed the border to us and settled in the
camp.
What do you want of Russian TV interviewing refugees?
To go to Slavyansk first and check, before reporting it on large screens? Yes, would be reasonable
and honest, to do this. A small reminder Russian TV lost 2 journalists recently in Slavyansk
and 1 more before there. Not an easy place to go and check, can be minus another TV crew.
Сергей Коломойцев -> Worried9876, 14 July 2014 8:50pm
Similar information reported refugee from Ukraine. She said that she is see that National Guard
fighters raped 6-year-old daughter of the rebel. Her mother was forced to watch. After were
killed. While this fact is no one has investigated and confirm. If it was - it's awful. I hope
that it is still a rumor. If any of these facts are confirmed - will be a social explosion.
Beckow -> NegativeCamber, 14 July 2014 9:34pm
CNN is still digging for the "100,000's of Albanians" murdered and dumped in the Kosovo
mine shaft. And the infants in incubators in Kuwait.
So yes, there is always some propaganda. I am really not sure who is worse. Or better at
it. But it would be ok for westerners to occasionally look at their own "free" media.....or
is that just different because you say so?
NegativeCamber -> Beckow, 14 July 2014 10:30pm
So yes, there is always some propaganda. I am really not sure who is worse. Or better at it.
But it would be ok for westerners to occasionally look at their own "free" media.....or is that
just different because you say so?
That's right, deflect the issue onto something totally
unrelated that happened decades ago, well done.
Beckow -> NegativeCamber, 15 July 2014 12:31am
You are the one deflecting. There are plenty of current examples of western media propaganda.
And it is related. You can't preach one thing to others, do propaganda at home, and expect
for anyone to take you seriously. We are not 5-year olds....
spartacus28, 14 July 2014 7:08pm
There is evidence of this happening with the baby in the form of a testimony made on film by
a mother who saw this happen and escaped.
Within the nazi block there seems to be a very nasty demonic element at work which has alraedy
showed itself in odessa.
If nazism is not stamped out quickly it can develop into more sinister threads and unfortunatly
this is what we are seeing.
Zaporozhye -> spartacus28, 14 July 2014 7:28pm
There are no evidence because this never happened. The person who gave interview was born in
West Ukraine and then moved to Slavyansk. Her husband fight along separatists, they have three
nice looking kids. She repeated this made up story. The story was posted on page of Dugin (Russian
Nazi who is close to Putin) several days before she said it happened. She said there were many
people in the plaza. Then where is video? Where is picture?
And last question, but not the lease, how could anybody, including you, believe such nonsense?
If you are from Russia, please talk to your grandparents, they might still remember how to read
between lines and how to resists propaganda. Peace to you and your family, we all desperately
need it.
MrTemecula, 14 July 2014 7:11pm
Particular controversy was caused over the weekend when Channel One aired a report claiming
that the Ukrainian army had crucified a three-year-old boy in the central square of Slavyansk,
a rebel stronghold recaptured by Ukrainian forces.
RT is bad, but it's not as bad Channel
One. Putin-run media makes Fox News look almost respectable.
spartacus28 -> MrTemecula, 14 July 2014 7:22pm
After what we have seen in detail on facebook the crimes that were commited in odessa crimes
which included chidren and pregnant women killed in the most horrible fashion i think its likely
that elements within the right sector and the like are capable of this type of crime.
ElvisInWales -> MrTemecula, 14 July 2014 8:05pm
At least RT is allowing comments on what is happening inside Gaza, whilst our own MSM has shut
down comments on the subject which in itself speaks volumes.
Perhaps our MSM still think people
are gullible enough to believe what is happening in Ukraine is as reported here and other media
here in the UK.
Well guess what? its not washing and people here are far more fearful of Ukrainians coming
over here and are sick of the way the EU has behaved over the whole affair, hence why UKIP made
massive gains in recent EU elections here, people want out, Ukraine and EU behaviour has turned
the stomaches of most of the electorates inside the EU and we all want out.
MFrenchman -> MrTemecula, 15 July 2014 12:46am
No, RT doesn't blatantly play to dumb gung hoism and use absurd fiery graphics and audio to
manipulate its viewers. RT is a thousand times better than Fox, the two are not in the same
solar system.
MrTemecula -> MFrenchman, 15 July 2014 3:02am
Oh, really?
Check this report from RT called the Truthseeker.
False Flag. Ukraine snipers. Balogna rail station. NATO. CIA.
Thumping music. Fiery Graphics. The only difference between Fox News and RT is the politics.
stephannoir, 14 July 2014 7:13pm
respectfully i suggest that poroshenko sprouts unadulterated lies and rubbish…
if putin had sent in his army offices ….then the so called separatists would be at the gates
of kiev….and not the western ukraine troops at the gates of donetsk…
to poroshenko i will say make hay while the sun shines….putin is not going to be cooperative
and passive ….forever…he is waiting for the petro dollar to take a hit…which i suggest is going
to occur in october this year….come winter there will be a far different putin….than the mr
nice guy we have now….
you either make a deal with putin now…..or you lose eastern ukraine forever….or worse putin
takes you down next year with the assistance of the western ukrainians as the starve and freeze
to death….when nil zip nada help financial comes from a economically collapsing eu and america….
spartacus28, 14 July 2014 7:14pm
Europes biggest nuclear power station is in donetsk and if the weather conditions are not favourable
it radioactive dust could be blown over the uk in hours so i think everybody needs to sit up
straight and realise the dangers that lie in this silly game of geopolitics with russia.
Britains interess no longer need to be under the shadow of crazy neo-con freaks over the pond
as they know they are further away from the action.
WAKE UP
BMWAlbert -> spartacus28, 14 July 2014 7:44pm
Too strong a westerly (Atlantic zonal) in UK for this, but for Central Europe with a high pressure
system in Central RU (like in summer 2010) yes, this is something to think about. There have
been many concerns voiced over UA nuclear plant safety since the Maian, just another one of
the many gifts of the Great Maidan to humanity in addition to advances like the refinement of
240 mm artillery bombardment against residential areas.
BMWAlbert -> spartacus28 , 14 July 2014 7:44pm
Too strong a westerly (Atlantic zonal) in UK for this, but for Central Europe with a high pressure
system in Central RU (like in summer 2010) yes, this is something to think about. There have
been many concerns voiced over UA nuclear plant safety since the Maidan, just another one of
the many gifts of the Great Maidan to humanity in addition to advances like the refinement of
240 mm artillery bombardment against residential areas.
Urobulos -> spartacus28, 14 July 2014 10:31pm
You are crazy. Even if someone blows up the reactor, there is no possibility of significant
radioactive fallout in the UK.
Of course damage coudl be possibly disastrous to people living closer to Donetsk, but you
prefer to TURN THE SCAREMONGERING UP TO ELEVEN 11111 so it's probably just best to take whatever
you say with a massive pinch of salt.
BMWAlbert -> Urobulos, 14 July 2014 10:51pm
No, I have seen quite a few articles on concern for UA reactor safety from different POV. The
last item in date was from only 3 days ago (Ukrainian news is cited here by TASS):
RIVNE,
July 11. /ITAR-TASS/. Ukraine's Security Service will reinforce security at the Rivne nuclear
power plant due to possible sabotage, the Ukrainian media report first deputy head of the Security
Service's division in the region, Yuri Petrunyak, as saying.
The official said the nuclear power plant was very close to the border between Ukraine and Belarus.
You could find scores of stories along similar lines, and not just with sabotage, also lapses
in general safety routine. UA has a non-stellar nuclear safety record over the long-term, there
have been incidents that might be described as more than minor issues, like Chernobyl.
Oleg Volkov, 14 July 2014 7:22pm
Regarding that "convtroversy", many Russian, Polish, Czech and other archives about UPA-UNSO
cleansings and massacres (that's grandfathers of current nazi movement in Ukraine) list much
more horrifying things here. Yes, including crucifixion, chopping toddlers with axes or just
plainly smashing them against wall.
So while I, personally, sincerely hope it is fake, who
knows...
Peace_Brothers -> Oleg Volkov, 14 July 2014 7:31pm
If Lyashko can film himself doing this, and then is lauded as a national hero (right now, more
popular than Poroshenko), then I agree that anything is possible... Having said that, I hope
it's not true.
1. He kidnaps a couple of locals and tells them they will be lucky if they
are ever heard from again!
There is actually an appeal being debated in CZ parliament about Volhynian Czechs (name of old
province now in NW-most Ukraine) wanting to escape the UA situation, and it is not only based
on economic concerns, there are ethnic ones too.
Bakaro -> Urobulos, 15 July 2014 12:37am
Ask Poles and Jews what Bandera supporters did to them during WW2. I am sure they still remember.
Were pictures from Odessa Russian propaganda too?
Bakaro -> Urobulos, 15 July 2014 2:28am
People dying in a fire started after both sides engaged in street fighting is tragic, but
actually something completely different from a public crucifixion of a child. Now tell me
who would make up such a story and why? Because the only reason I can think of is to spread
fear, hate and hatred between Russians and Ukrainians.
Street fighting was downtown, after that the Ukrainian nationalists decided to take revenge
on the tent camp near the trade union building, there were people who had nothing to do with
previous fighting, including elderly and females. The statistics of the dead says it all, 1
person dead from the nationalists side, and 48 dead from the referendum supporters side.
On top of that, 130 people from the trade union building were arrested and charged the same
night, even though many of them were injured (beaten by nationalists while exiting the building).
NONE of the nationalists was arrested, even though everybody, including the firefighters saw
that they were throwing Molotov cocktails at the building. A month later, two of the nationalists
were arrested in Odessa, but they were released under house arrest by Kiev, as "maidan heros".
Which means the government de facto takes side with the nationalists.
And regarding the spreading of hatred. Have you seen the comments from pro-Ukrainian forums
regarding the Odessa fire? A statement from Svoboda, and Right Sector, that it was one of the
'brightest days in Ukrainian history'? Or Ukrainian MPs? Who is spreading the hatred?
Bakaro -> Zaporozhye, 15 July 2014 12:41am
This isn't even funny. The Ukrainian government is bombing its own cities and killing civilians
including kids, while Russia is accepting tens of thousands of Ukrainian refugees. But, for
you, it is Russia who is becoming a 'terrorist state'.
BTW. you are very prolific,
I hope it pays well.
Taku2, 14 July 2014 7:31pm
Seems that the Americans and EU have given the Ukraine's Government carte blanche defeat
or try to defeat the Rebel forces in the Eastern Ukraine. You do not hear much ado being
made about the killing and destruction that is being perpetuated; unlike what is happening in
Syria, where the West supports the rebels against the government.
It is worrying that what
is happening in the Ukraine is happening; it is almost as if the conflict is being normalized.
Europe has been quite self-righteous about how Nato and the UN has kept wars out of the continent.
There is a very worrying change taking place, and Europeans need to wake up; as the expanding
monolith that is the EU continues to caste its pernicious tentacles further east.
CutThruMediaLies, 14 July 2014 7:35pm
Really not a very happy Nazi, is he...
A brief excerpt proving my point...
1. A Historical Statement from the EU 13th Dec. 2012 regarding Svoboda the political party
which represents Ukraine nationalism (previously Social-National Party of Ukraine) whose founder,
Andriy Volodymyrovych Parubiy, heads the Ukrainian National Security Council (after the Maidan
Coup). "Parliament goes on to express concern about the rising nationalist sentiment in the
Ukraine, expressed in support for the Svoboda party, which as a result, is one of the two new
parties to enter the Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian Parliament). It recalls that racist, anti-semitic
and xenophobic views go against the EU's fundamental values and principals and therefore appeals
to pro-democratic parties in the Verkovna Rada not to associate with, endorse or form coalitions
with this party."
2. I don't know if any of you have watched the world at war. It was a definitive documentary
made in the Seventies by the BBC voiced over by Jeremy Isaacs.
The opening scenes show footage from the air of a French village, Oradour-sur-Glane, voiced
over by Laurence Olivier. This village had its population completely massacred in a 'retaliatory
operation' by SS Division SS Das Reich. They were herded into a church which was set on fire
and machine-gunned. Das Reich has a regimental symbol called the Wolfsangel. This division fought
on the Eastern Front as well though surprisingly, maybe even amazingly, for an SS division serving
on the Eastern Front, I have been unable, in my brief check, to find any evidence of similar
atrocities on the Eastern Front. More likely to my mind is that 'counter insurgency' tactics
adopted on the Eastern Front were used in Oradour-sur-Glane.
I'll get to the point. A new brigade, the 'AZOV' brigade, has been formed in the new Ukrainian
'National Guards Army'. If you look at this link, you shall see what I mean. Its hard for me
to believe that the emblem isn't derived from SS Das Reich's.
If this is representative of the activities going on in South Eastern Ukraine, has our media
simply gone mute, or is there something even worse going on?
3. Full on Neo-Nazi Style reprisals from none other than ... Poroshenko http://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/30733.html
4. Kiev Post sahres governments off of free land for those who fight in Donetsk / Lugansk -
Classic Settler Regime Tactic
http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVywMIcRTnQ8AAk1XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzdWMxMnIzBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1ZJUDQ4M18x/RV=2/RE=1405391246/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.kyivpost.com%2fcontent%2fukraine%2fukraines-land-agency-give-land-to-soldiers-in-the-east-for-free-352100.html/RK=0/RS=eQiEqeC9UxiLNWJQV5xLvCqOo7Y-
5. Letter purporting to be from the Ukrainian minister of defence mandating that all male refugees
be called up to fight in the 'Anti Terrorist Operation.' If true - Unbelievable.
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ch/2014/07/ukraines-demarche-against-refugees-to.html
TrueUkrainian, 14 July 2014 7:52pm
This is what keeps them going. It is easy to blame Russia for all Ukraine troubles.
Firstly,
it shifts the focus from the dire economic trouble and the fact that people in power in Kiev
have done nothing for the ordinary people. Secondly, it absolves them from the need for a dialogue
in the country (as everyone that disagrees with them is labelled a "putin's agent"). Thirdly,
it is just easier not to talk about their US links (Poroshenko is mentioned in wikileakd cables
as an informant of US embassy) and the fact what stupid decisions they have made (IMF loan conditions).
It is time they grow up and accept responsibility for their faults and outright stupidity.
Canadianidol -> TrueUkrainian, 14 July 2014 8:04pm
It is not easy to reverse a hundred years of Russian Kleptocracy in just a few months. All of
the economic woes of Ukraine and indeed the suffering Russian people are as a direct result
of the Kremlin.
BMWAlbert -> Canadianidol, 14 July 2014 8:44pm
It is not easy to reverse rather the parochialism and cultural decay of the centuries under
the so-called Polish Commonwealth.
TrueUkrainian -> Canadianidol, 14 July 2014 9:29pm
Ukraine has been formally independent in its pre-Maidan borders (a gift from USSR btw) for 23
years.
There have not been many achievements in these years, apart from establishment of oligarchical
rule, "normalisation" of corruption and continuous attempts to disband autonomous status of
Crimea. This (and not Russian influence) is the main reason for Ukraine problems. It understandable
why people were upset and why US funding and support for far-right groups has found a fertile
soil.
As Ukrainian joke goes, "Petro Poroshenko is going to rebuild economy of Ukraine, which was
destroyed by Yanukovich, in government of which Poroshenko was the minister of economic development".
EbbTide64, 14 July 2014 7:52pm
All of this Ukrainian regime seem to be a bit hyperbolic (remember Yatsenyuk's "The ground will
burn under their feet" nonsense?), don't they?
But they think incinerating innocent people for holding the wrong political views is an action
which merits reward, rather than justice, which takes a pretty strange type of mentality.
Peace_Brothers -> EbbTide64, 14 July 2014 7:59pm
But one which is clearly supported by the West, in Ukraine's case...
prutin -> EbbTide64, 14 July 2014 8:02pm
But they think
They don't think that. You think that people will believe that they
think that, because you say that they do.
But who are you? A pro-Russian loudspeaker?
EbbTide64 -> prutin, 14 July 2014 8:50pm
They don't think that.
Their actions say that they do think that. Most of the people
who were murdered in Odessa were in tents, quietly and peacefully getting signatures for their
cause. The pro-Kiev neo-Nazis didn't like that cause, so they herded them into the Union Building
and killed them.
And Yatsenyuk's government rewarded them by co-opting the mass murderers into the National Guard,
paying them and arming them. Fairly obviously, they are rewarding people who kill political
opponents.
Canadianidol, 14 July 2014 8:00pm
The time for mercy is long past. Whoever committed these crimes will be killed as a result.
If it is war you want then its war you get.
Remember the Canadian AWAC plane sent to Ukraine
about two months ago. It was publicized that it is equipped with a ground radar. Friends of
Ukraine are already, publicly, operating in support of Ukraine. Putin will not challenge NATO
and survive the experience.
Trudi Goater -> Canadianidol, 14 July 2014 8:05pm
Ummmm if that happens none of us will survive idiot
loveminuso, 14 July 2014 8:01pm
People have to realize that the Ukrainian crises is a brutal hostile western corporate takeover,
set in place by cowardly, unaffected and entitled western corporate/feudal sociopaths, to rob
the Ukrainian working class of their natural resources and their human capital/energy.
The western corporate/feudal Crime gangs (one openly displaying a member of the Biden Crime
Family, Mr Hunter Biden), as those who are to realistically benefit from the western NeoCon's
mass murder for western corporate profits in the areas of Ukraine that aren't willing to pawn
of their country to the US's Brusselian Mafia….
The same Project for the New American Corporate/Feudal century is being applied within the
structures of Operation Full Spectrum Dominance not only against the working class of Palestine,
Ukraine, Russia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Lybia, Africa (the Africon Terror project for Corporate
profits and control) and all other foreign expendable Human Resources, but is being covertly
applied to the working poor of the very countries used as a launch platform for these aggressive
crimes against the until now lesser global working class(untermensch) within the western Corporate
Forth Reich's foreign policies that are so easily sold to their own 'useless eaters' as democracy
and morality applied with bombs, terror, blood and creams and tears…how do they get away with
it, these evil creatures…these hollow shadow humans?
gregor01, 14 July 2014 8:04pm
The way The Guardian reports events in Ukraine is ridiculous. A democracy elected party agrees
deals with Russia to create tighter bonds with regards to the natural resources in the country
whilst rejecting the EU and US proposals from the multi nationals to extract their resources
at low prices.
When a government rejects the EU/US what follows is a swift policy of destabilisation that follows
the following three steps.
1. Application of pressure from politicians
2. Funding and arming of rebel groups to over throw regime
3. False flag event and invasion of the country in order to change regime.
In this instance only step 2 was required; the new government quickly wrap up deals with
the west's multi-nationals. Another example is Iraq that required step 3 after the 'weapons
of mass destruction' false flag. Syria - step 3 was almost implemented with a 'gas attack' false
flag, due to massive public pressure the US/UK could not invade. We see other instances in Libya
just a couple of years ago where step 2 was enough.
Going back to the article the guardian refer to the US/EU installed leader as the Ukraine
president instead of a unelected rebel that seized power from the elected leader. There seems
to be absolutely no moral issues with the men who took power but the fighters that still back
the former elected president are referred to as 'rebels, and separatist fighters'.
All of these wars and acts of destabilisation are on the behalf of the elite in society.
Our current foreign policy is to serve the profits of the multi-nationals at all costs even
if that involves the use of the army and the death of millions. That is the way it works and
this is the only way the people in power are able to get their positions in the first place.
It is reported by the media who is owned by a few corporations that report any official line
that is required.
gregor01 -> jackscht, 14 July 2014 9:22pm
We are under a corporate dictatorship that functions like a pyramid scheme. Politicians
serve the corporate profits then join their ranks later in life. All the money funnels up then
it bursts and the people at the base of the pyramid go bust.
Feel free to go on with the belief that we are the righteous ones. 100 years from now history
will look back on today much the same as we look back on colonialism. I am not saying Putins
regime is what we need to aim for but neither is being ruled for corporate profits.
TrueUkrainian -> Canadianidol, 14 July 2014 9:37pm
Well, your examples? When nazional guard in Ukraine does not like what Russian (or Ukrainian)
media write, it also assasinates the journalists. However, this is not worth highlighting, right?
joeboyread, 14 July 2014 8:14pm
Russia is not the culptit here ,it is the U.S.A and this monster EU ,the EU should be broken
immediately ,return sovereign Nations to run their own countries.UKraine is just the Tip of
an Iceberg ,war will come in Every EU country , ALL BECAUSE EU Takeover .This whole thing is
Forencically planned ,years in the making ,the whole EU thing must dissolve
Peace_Brothers, 14 July 2014 8:14pm
GUARDIAN:
"The negotiations make no sense any more," Levchenko said. "So many people died already on
both sides. They hate us and we hate them. It's war."
By Kiev's admission they hate Eastern Ukraine, and it's WAR, but a war where only one side
is legally allowed to fight... Mmmm.
John Gurley Peace_Brothers, 14 July 2014 8:27pm
I would say they hate the Russians in East Ukraine, not the Ukrainians.
dmitry_k -> John Gurley, 14 July 2014 9:06pm
What do you mean? They are ukrainian citizens in the East. Do you mean they hate ethnically
russian citizens of Ukraine? Isn't this exactly what fashism/nazism is supposed to be?
Kal El, 14 July 2014 8:23pm
When is Petro Don Potty going to bring out his book ?
Because for the past few weeks he's
been coming out with such fairytales that even Hans Christian Andersen is looking a mere lightweight
Jack Dunster, 14 July 2014 8:25pm
The Russians live in a fantasy world.. a crucified boy... You and your people live in Wonderland,
Mr. Putin... The sad fact is there will be so many who will believe this lurid dark fantasy
- put forward by a deranged mind.
Zogz -> Jack Dunster, 14 July 2014 8:46pm
I know right, next they will be claiming there are WMD's in Iraq!
spartacus28, 14 July 2014 8:35pm
The biggest criminal to come out of this is kolomolsky who is hiding in geneva HE PULLS THE
STRINGS PAYS THE PIPER orthodox jews are very upset about his involvement with nazis and used
a quabalan curse on him so if the russians dont get him hell pay for his crimes.
But lets hope this is the last chapter of human history to be played this way kolomolsky
and the like have ruled over us for thousands of years and i think the mask is starting to fall.
Please everybody blaming putin and the russians google kolomolsky and you will see the real
greedy bastards who are behind this mess.
JanZamoyski, 14 July 2014 8:35pm
I really wish both ( more like three ) sides called things what they really are.
Those aren't terrorists in the East, but separatists who after Putin so easily took over
Crimea thought they can repeat the same success in the East. The problem is those aren't just
ethnic Russians who live there.
The whole Ukraine isn't Nazi / fascist either, the ultra-nationalist got as many votes if
not less as Russian ultras.
When it comes to Putin, he could decide if separatists are criminals ( as he recently decided
in Russia ) or freedom fights ( as he apparently views them in Eastern Ukraine ).
prutin -> mary8stewart
Freedom fighters fight for freedom.
But in this case, and since there is more freedom in Ukraine and more repression in Russia,
the Pro-Russian 'separatists' should be called 'repressionfighters'.
Bakaro -> prutin, 15 July 2014 1:04am
If "there is more freedom in Ukraine" how come the demands for a referendum on federalization
and official status of Russian language are answered with burning of people (in Odessa) and
tanks, air- and artillery fire (in Donbass)?
The 'evil' Russia, on the other hand, is a federation, and there are 27 official languages in
different regions of Russia in addition to Russian.
Urobulos -> Bakaro, 15 July 2014 1:17am
Demands for a referendum were launched after the success of the first "referendum" in Crimea.
Forgive me for ignoring 1) a referendum carried out under the patronage of the invading Russian
army 2) not recognising the calls for a referendum made by a few thousand armed men of mixed
origin.
Ukraine will likely have to federalise sooner rather than later and somehow create
a viable future for East and West. But it will have to be done through a political process,
not a band of mercenaries setting up phony republics. If Poroshenko ends up treating the East
like conquered land, then he will not survive for long, regardless of how many terrorists his
amy will kill.
Bakaro -> Urobulos, 15 July 2014 1:59am
Bullshit. The demands for more autonomy from Kiev and a referendum came right after the Maidan.
There were no Russian troops anywhere near Odessa, or Donbass. What prevented the Ukrainian
so-called government to organize a referendum, or promise to organize it, or at least talk to
people? They never did, instead they arrested protests leaders, which only fueled the protests.
"somehow create a viable future for East and West" - how they are going to do it now,
after all the killing? They should've thought about the future, when they decided to send army
to Donbass.
Mulefish, 14 July 2014 8:42pm
Poroshenko is learning fast from his U.S. masters. They have given him their most potent
weapon:
Lie boldly and often enough, and some fools will always believe those lies, including
our darling Western press.
(It was ironic to the point of being hilarious to watch Jon Snow, or a lookalike of Jon Snow,
recently berating a stuffed shirt Israeli spokesman for turning Palestine into an open prison
camp.
It took ten years of indifferent Duh from his BBC newsreading and many barbarics for the simple
penny to drop, but, the righteous indignation was real, Jon.)
rodney9, 14 July 2014 8:43pm
After a lull when all sides appeared to be seeking a way out of the conflict,
I'm sorry I must have been on holiday. We have just heard reports of shelling on Russian
territory and deaths, as well as relentless shelling by the Kiev forces.. The recently brokered
peace attempt was put to one side. Poroshenko spoke of a symbolic victory with the taking of
Slaviansyk, and appeared to jump in the air at the same time clicking his military heels. That
this is a "lull", does that explain why we have continual pictures of President Poroshenko in
military fatigues thesedays? At least some European television networks have the honesty to
report from Gaza and the shelling, and then to Ukraine and the shelling.
However, is it me, or do the innocent civilians (women and children) in Gaza appear to have
a much higher priority (sympathy quotient) than those innocent civilians (women and children)
in the Ukraine.
Levchenko claimed that civilians were mostly pleased to see the troops.... About 70% of
the population had already left the town to escape the fighting, he added.
No comment.
Mistaron -> rodney9, 14 July 2014 8:57pm
''Levchenko claimed that civilians were mostly pleased to see the troops.... About 70% of the
population had already left the town to escape the fighting, he added.''
Had me scratching
my head as well.
Evan Vrysoulis, 14 July 2014 8:45pm
Captain Valery Levchenko, Tamara Yarontseva just quoting random names to give credibility to
your reporting. However, you never show videos of massive support to the Kiev occupying forces
of New Russia. On the contrary there are tens of videos showing peoples opposition to the Kiev
troops.
Why doesn't the guardian in small letters do us a favor and admit they will be carrying on
tickling us with their propaganda?
Nenad Vidovic -> Evan Vrysoulis, 14 July 2014 9:04pm
They can't. There are three magic letters CIA
pieter1, 14 July 2014 8:48pm
The West has already lost,Crimea has returned to Russia and will never again be Ukrainian,And
the EU will never accept such a dysfunctional failed state as Ukraine becoming a member of the
EU,So Ukraines future is to be a barren impoverished no man's land between Russia and the EU.
Raminak101 -> Robert Looren de Jong, 14 July 2014 10:39pm
This link of yours does not refute the claim. It merely states Ukrainian government claims on
Russians being terribly bad and nasty!
The. Problem is that we have been hearing the obnoxious rants of the government and watching
videos of their men beating up officials who do not toe the line (YouTube is full of them).
Not exactly chaps one might want to invite for a cup of tea!
burnageblue11, 14 July 2014 9:24pm
Putin has remained very restrained considering the long term Sovereign integrity off Russia
is actually at risk here. An idiot can see the end game is the US sticking NATO troops on the
Russia/Ukraine border. In my opinion It was that alone that forced Russia to act swiftly in
Crimea. If Russia had lost Crimea it would have profound implications on Russia Geo-political
interests in the Mediterranean. the reality is she had no choice. The United States would have
done the same if her interests were at risk.
I also don't actually believe that Russia has
any real interests in Ukraine,(other than having a NATO free border) the economy is a basket
case. The IMF loans so far seem to have been spent on arms and ammunition rather than things
like the 8 Billion gas bill they are in arrears with( will be cold in Ukraine this winter).
In my opinion Kiev are only doing the bidding off their master in Washington, trying to get
Russia in to an economy destroying conflict in Ukraine. Putin is doing his best to avoid such
a conflict.
The danger though is Firing missiles in to Russia and killing Russian citizens. could have
unexpected dire consequences. Some Russian politicians are saying enough is enough. The more
vocal they get, the more vulnerable Putin position becomes if he does not react. The risk is
he could actually be deposed and replaced by a hardliner. Is that what the West really wants,
to make Putin position untenable because he is perceived as being weak for not acting.
I think the US government is acting in a very dangerous and reckless way. You need only look
at the Middle East to see US Foreign policy disasters. Ukraine could be their worst yet it could
potentially lead to WW3.
Today it is obvious that the ATO was a blunder. Hubrus and nationalistic histeria of junta prevented
negotiation and they god civil war instead of federalizatin and other small concessions that people
of those regions demanded from Kiev. Military success Poroshenko claimed proved to a phantom. An illusion.
The concept of "terrorists", who are just needed to be dislodge from their positions, as things
will get better, was destroyed in Slavyansk and other "liberated" towns. Resistance continues.
In each of them "junta in chocolate" must keep a separate military garrison and carry on punitive measures
among the local population. Even if that manage fully "liberate" the South-East it will be a sad picture:
a classical picture of the occupied territory.
The greatest lie today is that official mass media
keep a blind eye and psaking of this. Words can lie much easier than videos. Watch number of
them here http://antiMaidan.info/
every day and don't be fooled by US sponsored media and Nazis making ethnic cleansing to gain
freed property.
gottliebvera, 12 July 2014 9:23pm
And all this misery courtesy of 'F***EU' Nuland and her boss.
Ingelrild -> gottliebvera, 12 July 2014 9:53pm
This is how the economic terrorists roll...
"You know we did it, and we don't give a fuck uh..."
braciole -> gottliebvera, 12 July 2014 11:08pm
Unfortunately the misery will continue until Putin responds with force. That the Ukraine military
are not very effective is a feature rather than a problem for Washington. The longer that Washington
can prolong the killing of ethnic Russians the greater the pressure on Putin to intervene in
Ukraine. Any pressure for peace from Berlin will be ignored by the putschists in Kiev on Washington's
say-so.It wouldn't even surprise me if Washington were supplying ex-Soviet weapons stockpiled
in eastern Europe to the separatists.
ElvisInWales -> braciole, 13 July 2014 12:38am
That is what all this is all about, to goad Russia into a war with the hope that no one is mad
enough to launch the nukes, this is inspite of Putin saying that under certain circumstance
Russia will strike first.
Russia and its president along with its staff are the only grown
ups in this sorry mess, our leaders actions are pathetic and juvenile and make themselves look
bare stupid.
But given all the pisstaking in recent years from lying to the Russians over Libya, big piss
take over Syria and now Ukraine, its goading, and for what? a bit of oil or gas... For fucks
sake!
letsbeclearaboutthis -> braciole, 13 July 2014 2:35am
Have you forgotten they had an election recently?
braciole -> letsbeclearaboutthis, 13 July 2014 3:58am
How is that relevant? Do you believe that because the putschists in Kiev conducted an election
of dubious legality and fairness (I notice there appears to be no Carter Center report on the
election) , that justifies any action they take including killing civilians, a war crime? If
you do, then Yanukovich as a president elected in legal and fair elections was entitled to put
down the Euromaidan insurrection by Pravyi Sektor and Svoboda with at least as much force.
greatwhitehunter -> braciole, 13 July 2014 4:28am
The ukrainian army took the time during the cease fire to re-eqipment their army this is the
reason for the turn around in the events in ukraine. Victoria nuland has recently given her
report to the US goverment detailing what they have spent in the last month.A large amount was
for military equipment. They have supplied body armour and night vision equipment for the whole
army .
I see from the latest photos that the ukraine army now has the later model russian tank Obviously
the russians must be supplying both sides, Cant trust the russkys All joking aside the tanks
probably came from poland
I herd that they were brand new but they were probably old ones painted over for obvious
reasons. As the US are committed to non lethal support then there is probably some deal going
on in the back ground to give poland some new ones
Oilyheart braciole, 13 July 2014 4:41am
The big question is, who gave Yanukovich the order to pack his bags to leave office and who
told the military and police not to suppress riots that would have been suppressed forthwith
in any EU country? The US has "free speech zones" where protesters are arrested immediately.
Funny that Yanu's bags were already packed when the presidential palace was stormed.
The answer
is, don't ask.
Hyman Roth never asks who gives the order. But if you watch him very closely, you will notice,
as Michael Corleone did, that he's been dying of the same heart attack for forty years as he
effortlessly hands off the solid gold telephone when they are passing it around the conference
table. The devil is in the tiny details somewhere.
mango2005 braciole, 13 July 2014 8:25am
The election results were in line with the opinion polls.
christopher22 -> letsbeclearaboutthis, 13 July 2014 9:18am
It must be nice to delude yourself that the election in Kiev had any relevance but the truth
is - it didn't.
Chocoshenko is simply a mouthpiece for the unelected thugs who still hold
all the positions of power in Ukraine
So that we're clear, the US and EU have put in place a Nazi government in Europe (the first
since Hitler.A.) and are currently backing them to goad Russia into military action (in the
hope that it will embrace the whole of Europe and they will hold the coats - as usual)
So when the lights go out next winter - you now know why.
greatwhitehunter braciole, 13 July 2014 10:41am
What i do know and this is not some urban mith is that the snipers hadnt opened up on the protesters
that triggered the take over that triggerd russia moving on crimea the russia would have signed
trade deals that were the first in a string of free trade agreements that would have marginalised
the USA as an economic power. The US was fighting for its economic life.
Who gained the most from the snipers pulling the trigger. Not ukraine they ended up losing
crimea and potentially the east. the maiden protesters had signed an agreement to get rid of
yano*&^ they were sweet and things were looking up .
At the end of the day whats a few hundred dead ukrainians compared to the health of the US
economy. This will stop when the US want it to stop. I bet u their is a few surprised people
in the whitehouse that cant beleive putin has sat on his hands for so long. I vote the US should
be required to use their influence ect ect ect or else travel ban alround
I vote Obama kerry, biden and nuland for a start because i sure as hell dont want them near
me.
Another neo-nazi/fascist supporter who indulges in whataboutery - I thought that wasn't allowed?
Or is it all right as long as you're not a putinbot?
I am not suggesting that CIA-sponsored
troublemakers were involved in Crimea - in fact, I would suggest that the CIA is so incompetent
at gathering human intelligence that it didn't see the Russian takeover in Crimea coming, so
in an act dripping in hubris Obama, Kerry, and Nuland pushed through the putsch in Kiev thinking
that Putin would do nothing.
So the separatists didn't buy those rocket launchers at an army surplus shop?
There is some evidence that they bought them from the Ukrainian army, but your description
of it as an army surplus store is a touch cruel.
As to my suggestion that the United States government might arm both sides in a conflict
to prolong it, the United States government has form. For instance, the Iraq-Iran war. So that
they might want to do it in Ukraine because they want to reduce Russia to a few impotent client
states, wouldn't surprise me but it's hard to see any evidence yet as nobody, particularly in
the MSM, is looking for it. Though I would suggest that the breaking by the putschists under
pressure from the United States government of the February 21st agreement and the later agreement
signed in the last couple of weeks tends to support my hypothesis.
What surprises me is that there are people who believe that providing the rebels with heavy
weapons is going to rectify this situation.
This comment could apply equally well to Syria.
As to the Ukraine - American support has clearly got into Poroshenko's head and he behaves
like president of a superpower. He may wish to consider that what Israel can get away with,
Ukraine may not.
If he thinks that military victory will also be a political one, he is deluding himself.
Unless he embarks on negotiations with the separatists and offers them a viable autonomy within
Ukraine, best he can hope for is a prolonged low-intensity, chronic insurgency if not acts of
random terror (Ukraine's Ireland?)
If Poroshenko continues wholesale attacks on urban centres with growing loses among the civilian
population, Putin may be forced to act or risk losing popular support in Russia. He may wait
for a major atrocity to declare a 'no flying zone' over Ukraine, quoting the R2P used by the
West in Libya.
It is in West's best interest to restrain Poroshenko as they simply can't risk serious confrontation
with Russia, and economic sanctions may prove too costly to both sides. In the end Russia may
offset the effect of the sanctions by increased trade with countries like India and China or
use both as conduits to trade with willing partners in the West.
The Ukrainian crisis is largely 'made in the USA' and the EU should think carefully about
the possible outcomes, which may be more direct and unpleasant for Europe than for the USA.
Lastly - USA with its habitual spying, lying and arm twisting does not come across to its European
friends as benevolent or trustworthy anymore.
The country was very fragile from the beginning. So when Dnepropetrovsk clan allied with ultranationalists
depose Yanukovich in EuroMaidan color revolution many things including currency tanked.
Kiev is calm now, but Bukovetskiy isn't. He joined hundreds of angry borrowers at Parliament
on June 19 to demand relief for holders of mortgages that bind the borrower to pay in dollars. Since
the hryvnia lost 40 percent of its value following President Viktor Yanukovych's ouster, the cost
of making mortgage payments has ballooned. For Bukovetskiy, mortgage payments of $1,250 a month
on his apartment now cost 14,912 hryvnia; they cost 6,250 hryvnia when he got the loan. "I don't
have that kind of money," says Bukovetskiy, who dipped into savings to pay his mortgage after losing
his marketing job. "I'm not hiding from my bank. But I want a compromise."
Six months of turmoil have rocked Ukraine's finances, turning the hryvnia into 2014's worst performer
vs. the dollar and prompting the government to seek a $17 billion bailout from the International
Monetary Fund. The government is working to broker a deal between lenders and borrowers without
harming the flow of credit, according to Pavlo Sheremeta, Ukraine's economy minister.
Mortgage lenders in Ukraine, which include local banks as well as Russian and Austrian institutions,
have issued only hryvnia-based home loans since the 2008 global financial crisis ravaged Ukraine's
economy. Before that, Ukrainians had piled into mortgages denominated in foreign currencies,
attracted by a lower loan rate of 11.5 percent, well below hryvnia-denominated mortgage rates of
17 percent to 20 percent. Today, Ukrainian consumers owe $4 billion in foreign-currency home loans
(48.3 billion hryvnia), or almost a quarter of total consumer lending.
Dollar-denominated loans ncies other than the zloty rose for a sixth consecutive month in April.
In Ukraine, the ratio of banks' nonperforming loans to their total lending will reach 30 percent
this year, as credit costs rise, Moody's Investors Service predicted in May. (By contrast, U.S.
banks took loan-loss provisions of $263 billion in the first quarter of 2010, about 3.5 percent
of all loans.) Ukraine had 87,091 foreign-currency home loans as of May 1, central bank data show.
... ... ...
One fear is the hryvnia sinking below 12.5 to the dollar. At that level, the IMF estimates that
the 22 largest banks would need to be recapitalized at a cost of as much as 5 percent of gross domestic
product. Yet if this year's hryvnia exchange rate can strengthen to 10.5 per dollar, the loan losses
for Ukrainian banks would remain within the limits already set out by the IMF, said Vadim Khramov,
an economist at Bank of America (BAC), by e-mail. "If the government can assure the IMF the proposed
measures wouldn't substantially increase costs to the budget, the [bailout] program is unlikely
to change."
Foreign banks have an interest in the resolution of Ukraine's mortgage crisis. Austria's Raiffeisen
Bank International (RBI:AV) said recently that 2014 provisions against loan losses may rise by 22
percent, to €1.4 billion ($1.9 billion), rather than remain little changed as previously predicted,
mainly because of events in Ukraine and Russia. Bukovetskiy says his lender is offering no respite.
His bank's press service declined to comment. "I'm not ready to spend all my money on debt repayments
and go hungry," he says.
Suddenly, Ukraine's army is winning. Over the weekend Kiev's troops recaptured several cities
in the eastern Donetsk region, sending pro-Russian rebels fleeing to strongholds further east. Now
President Petro Poroshenko is planning a "complete blockade" of the region's two other main cities,
Donetsk and Luhansk, according to a Ukrainian television report that quoted the deputy head of the
country's National Defense and Security Council.
That's a striking turnabout from just a few weeks ago, when Ukraine's forces seemed ragtag and
reluctant to fight. But it doesn't mean a military victory is likely, or desirable.
The cities retaken over the past few days were relatively small (the largest, Kramatorsk, has
a population of 165,000) and lightly defended. Donetsk, the region's biggest city with some 1 million
inhabitants, is still in the hands of rebels. Rooting them out would be a long and brutal process.
"They would have to do it street by street," says Mark Galeotti, a professor of global affairs at
New York University. "The cost in body bags would be high."
True, Ukraine's forces are now better trained and equipped than before, thanks in part to $23
million in recent U.S. aid. But they're still no match for Russia's military-and Russia won't let
Ukraine retake Donetsk without a serious fight, Ian Bremmer, head of the political risk research
firm Eurasia Group, told Bloomberg Television today. Although the flow of aid to the rebels from
across Russia's border appears to have slowed, it could resume at any time, turning the battle for
the city into a bloodbath. "I don't see the Ukrainians holding Donetsk and the Russians sitting
on the sidelines," Bremmer said.
While Russia is unlikely to invade Ukraine, it could step up its involvement to weaken the Ukrainian
military's effectiveness against the rebels, Galeotti says. One possibility, he says, might be a
no-fly zone enforced by the Russian air force.
Ukrainian forces have used heavy artillery to dislodge rebels from some other locales, but that
tactic would "produce many more civilian casualties" in densely-populated Donetsk, Edward Walker,
head of the Soviet & Post-Soviet Studies Program at the University of California, Berkeley, writes
on his blog. "Kiev is going to face a very difficult decision."
The advances of the past few days could put Poroshenko in a better position to negotiate a peaceful
settlement. That still looks like the best solution for Ukraine and for Russia. "Putin's aim is
to get Kiev to strike a deal that he can spin at home as 'mission accomplished,' that keeps Ukraine
within Russia's sphere of influence," Galeotti says. "A great apocalyptic war in Donetsk doesn't
advance that case." It's understandable that Ukraine is taking a stronger stand against rebels who
repeatedly violated a ceasefire, he says. But "trying for an all-out military victory could go horribly
wrong."
Matlack is a Paris correspondent for Bloomberg Businessweek.
People are dying for gas pipelines... As DaveHodge put it " I would think that anyone with half
a scrupple can see the Ukraine government is under instructions from the US to provoke Moscow." An interesting
data for Ukraine's gas transit lines. Modernization costs of over $3billion - proposed improvement costs
of $5.5billion.
In Aug 2008 Putin was in Beijing watching the Olympics, that US poodle tie chewer Sakashivili
attacked Russians in South Ossetia.
In July 2014, the new US attack dog Porky Poroshenko is trying to please his masters again
while Putin is in Rio watching the World Cup. He will end up worse of than the tie chewer.
There have been several such incidents over the last few weeks but so far, Russia has only
complained to Kiev, so the provocation of the Ukrainian military hasn't worked so far.
Russian backed militant "volunteers" sent in to Eastern Ukraine to destabilise it
There are very few Russian citizens involved, the majority are Ukrainian citizens, as backed
up by the people the Ukrainian authorities have captured or killed. If you want to believe Ukrainian
media, believe the bits from people who have actually been to see the fighting in Donbass for
themselves. Here's Mark Franchetti of the Sunday Times, being interviewed on Ukrainian TV:
"For every soldier's life, the militants will pay with dozens and hundreds of their own," said
Ukraine's president, Petro Poroshenko after Friday's attack
I do believe this is an old
Nazi response used during the second world war, you would think they would try something new,
guess you just can't teach an old dog new tricks.
"I think all it would take would be one day where, say, 300 people are killed in the east
and Putin will be simply obliged to act," said the source. "I don't think you can rule it out
yet, not at all."
I would think this latest Kiev trick would be enough provocation considering they make themselves
very clear on the worth of East Ukrainian Russian lives.
Canadianidol ChristopherMyers, 13 July 2014 2:45pm
Terrorists are combatants out of uniform and may be dealt with in a summary fashion when apprehended
by the authorities. This is found in the Geneva Conventions.
PeterlooSunset -> ChristopherMyers, 13 July 2014 2:46pm
guess you just can't teach an old dog new tricks.
Nope. Driving civilians into buildings which
they then set on fire is another old trick.
Putin is in Brazil where he is due to watch the World Cup final on Sunday evening
His visit to Brazil is part of a larger Latin American tour, in which he strengthened political
and economical ties with Argentina, Uruguay, Nicaragua, Cuba and Brazil. More relevant than
attending the World Cup final, there is an important
BRICS summit
to create an alternative development bank to the corrupt World Bank and IMF.
Canadianidol, 13 July 2014 2:41pm
Just more empty, as usual threats from the Kremlin. As General Breedlove pointed out that in
the event of problems with the Russian army, NATO would complete its mission in a few days.
Chris Leach -> Canadianidol, 13 July 2014 2:50pm
If the Mexican army, fighting a civil war with pro-USA Mexicans, fired shells that killed American
civilians in Texas....would the resulting bluster from the White House be "threats"? Or justifiable
anger?
I suppose the question is moot, because were that to happen a US puppet would carreid
into Mexico Citty on the shoulders of United States Marines by the end of the week.
RussianFriend -> Canadianidol, 13 July 2014 2:54pm
Whatever Gen Breedlove says, this does not mean that Moscow should permit artillery shells falling
on its territory and killing people in their private houses. At this moment, the task of paramount
importance is to make it unambiguously clear both to the Kiev clique that has gone off the handle
and to its smug overseas patrons that such actions won't go unpunished.
Urobulos -> Chris Leach, 13 July 2014 5:03pm
Problem is no one has actually shown it was the Ukrainian army that fired the shots.
Both sides have heavy artillery.
What Ukraine could gain from this is a sense of satisfaction from prickling the Kremlin.
Not sure this is enough to risk a Russian invasion, even if you believe that the Ukrainian army
is the reincarnation of the SS.
What the rebels can get from shelling Russian territory is a possible Russian invasion, which
at this stage is the last thing that can save them from death in combat or execution.
I don't know who fired the shots, it's possible that the Ukrainian army is simply incompetent
or some local commander is being crazy, but I find it interesting how so many people here know
for a fact that it was the Ukrainian military.
thefeck, 13 July 2014 2:46pm
Nothing irreversible, no irrevocables, as far as the Kiev higher ups are concerned. Remember
that military appointee sworn in without really signing it? That's what they have relied upon--Facebook
channeled ordinances, virtualized liability, and virtually no accountability other than Psaki
style cop-outs and Biden mentored aye ayes. Oh, and pointing to a sheer breach of orphans right
to land, never mind their right to life being waived by those selfsame FB decrees. And sympathy,
sympathy, and more humanitarian assistance for the Kiev ops. They strive for democracy, mind
you, lest Putin come and grab your bungalow north of Londonderry. These days, their media have
outmatched themselves: it is argued all the while there's no room for democracy and soothsaying
(sic!) when waging a war on your enemy, domestic and outer alike. I was at a loss presuming
that was some kind of sarcasm or self-irony at first. You wish.
maninBATHTUB, 13 July 2014 2:54pm
Who would benefit from shells hitting houses inside Russia's borders from Ukraine?
The Ukrainian
army ?? or The pro Russian separatists who are calling everyday for Russia to come to their
aid??
Chirpoevec maninBATHTUB, 13 July 2014 3:07pm
Americans may be? Or whoever want to provoke Russia?
Craig Riley maninBATHTUB, 13 July 2014 3:08pm
Very much the same point raised about the firing on protestors during the original Maiden protests
which led to the coup.
However, there are three factions at work here, you have the Ukrainian
army, who I agree, makes for a pretty awful strategy to shell Russian territory, the rebels,
who it is true could benefit from drawing Russia into the dispute. However, their tactics in
the fight so far have never shown that they are willing to consider anyone as targets who are
not directly engaging them militarily. They've even been shown to give aid to the Ukrainian
army if injured.
Finally we have the Right Sector and other far-right militant groups working in a loose alliance
with the Ukrainian army. They have been promoting the fiercest hatred of anything Russian. Their
goal is the complete eradication of any Russian elements from Ukraine. Even ethnic-Russian Ukrainian
citizens. They seem convinced that they have international backing to their cause, and it's
equally possible that they'd punch above their weight by targetting Russian soil.
Which I imagine, is why Russia is keen to investigate the matter fully before any measures
or consequences are decided upon.
donkeyshit maninBATHTUB, 13 July 2014 3:08pm
apart from "who benefits" (i.e. nobody), it might simply be a reality that indeed, ukrainian
army shells have hit russian territory.
RussianFriend -> maninBATHTUB, 13 July 2014 3:10pm
And who might benefit from the shelling residential blocks in Slavyansk, Luhansk and other places
-- a measure totally senseless unless you want to make popuilation vanish from a certain tettirory?
Well but someone did...
ProfRatBaggy, 13 July 2014 2:58pm
So the American bison continues to provoke the Russian bear into a war in Ukraine.
nishville -> ProfRatBaggy, 13 July 2014 4:31pm
I am under the impression that it would be difficult to find anybody in Russia dumb enough to
fall for that. Why should they? All they have to do is wait and watch the forming of Ukraines
own North Ireland - whats not to like?
Of course, none of the principal players are concerned
with the amount of casualties except in terms of PR damage control.
Martin1008, 13 July 2014 3:04pm
yes if Russia cannot send peacekeepers to protect people in east Ukraina then I agree with comments
that atleast they should destroy any potencial weaponry closed to their borders.
What is going
now is great shame on west. the US oversteped here, they can do in far east or africa but not
on the europe ground, their reputation will suffer amongst EU citizens..you will see how it
isolate the US from minds of people here
Chirpoevec, 13 July 2014 3:04pm
I suppose, Americans won`t mind Russia to carry out a reasonable number of moderate and measured
pacifying measures?.. Probably they can even have Putin`s word that he will not exceed Israel
in... you know... measuring.
Bulagen, 13 July 2014 3:05pm
Obviously, this is a planned provocation. Despite the capture of Slavyansk and Kramatorsk Ukrainian
puppets uncle Sam understand that their operation is likely to fail.
From the point of view of image it is better to get beaten by Army of Russia, than by
its own citizens from Southeast...
Moreover, the involvement of Russia in Ukrainian conflict this mega task of the U.S. state
Department. Their aim is to tear off Europe from Russia to undermine the business as in Europe
thus in Russia and to clear economical field in Europe for American corporations which are laying
in crisis.
firstgeordie Bulagen, 13 July 2014 5:21pm
"Europe is open for American Corporations" which part of the world are you from? It is called
international commerce and if Russia had any commerce that was worth having it come to Europe
too
Bulagen firstgeordie, 13 July 2014 7:28pm
You know... There is a subtle point... Is settled communications, business processes, a certain
stability of interaction... When vis major, stability is crumbling. It needs in time to switch
to the organization of interaction with new partners, and it is well when one of them exists...
But changeover requires time, and this delay in execution of obligations, claims of customers,
fines and other troubles. Additionally, there are certain critical areas in which suppliers
are located exclusively in Russia (for example, titanium billets). While Europeans are heroically
to solve the problem of their place in the market with pleasure will take us corporations and
banks. Do You understand what I mean? And well, if it will calm You... I Admit, I'm from Russia.
:) But the logic is the concept which has no nationality.
retsdon, 13 July 2014 3:05pm
Fighting at Tripoli airport; a great swathe of the Middle East from Syria to Iraq at war; civil
war in Ukraine; and women and children being bombed in their homes in Gaza. There are millions
of people whose lives are, right at this moment, in turmoil.
And why? Because America and its sidekicks chose to 'help' them.
You would think that the pattern should be obvious, even to the meanest intelligence.
But no, Putin is a threat to peace. Well, if you're credulous to the point of imbecility
he might be....
DomesticExtremist, 13 July 2014 3:06pm
Well, the Russians only need look to the Israeli response to Gazan rockets to have ample
justification
for any response. Looking forward to the headline 'Russia under renewed attack from Poroschenko
rockets'.
Hanwell123, 13 July 2014 3:09pm
Even Hague is saying Israel should hold off but nobody is telling Kiev to stop the slaughter
despite the recent "accord" with the EU meaning Ukraine would have little choice but to do what
it is told. No, the EU is happy to see these shocking events taking place in its own backyard
- so long as the media don't make too much of a fuss. And they aren't...so that's fine!
ProfRatBaggy Hanwell123, 13 July 2014 3:12pm
They want to catch the Russian bear into the trap of protecting its borders and then come down
on them hard as invaders.
Whereas Hamas is always guilty even if the West gets around eventually
to saying that the numbers of coffins is perhaps sufficient.
Hanwell123, 13 July 2014 3:12pm
Over lunch today a friend asked why America doesn't threaten Israel with sanctions to stop it's
murder and mayhem in the same way Russia is kept out of the war in Ukraine. There was a baffled
silence followed by a single hollow laugh.
Russia's foreign ministry says the Ukrainian army is responsible for the shelling that killed
a man inside Russian territory, warning that the incident could have "irreversible consequences".
If I were a 'separatist' who wanted Russia to intervene I would launch a few rockets at some
Russian village myself.
No. You overlook that there have numerous verified incidents of the Ukrainian army shelling
border posts. It's a whole pattern of provocation.
FirstAmendment1789 AlfredHerring 13 July 2014 3:17pm
doesnt it occur to you that if the Russians had any wish to intervene they could have done so
months ago?
MichaelRivero, 13 July 2014 3:14pm
Poroshenko WANTS a reaction from Russia, to allow the US to directly militarily intervene in
Ukraine. That is why Poroshenko has been carrying out deliberate provocations such as driving
an APC into Russian territory and abandoning it there, overflights, and the shelling of border
crossings. Poroshenko will go on provoking Russia until Russia responds. Then the western media
will declare Russia as the aggressor and try to make everyone forget Ukraine struck first, just
as they are even now trying to obscure the fact that Israel started the current conflict in
Gaza and claim HAMAS is the aggressor.
And let us not forget that the crisis in Ukraine actually
started back in January when Ukraine's elected government was forced from power by a foreign-backed
coup for rejecting an "offer" to merge with the European Union.
Alcimar Luiz Callegari MichaelRivero, 13 July 2014 3:22pm
You are 100% right!. That's all that NATO wants! But I think Russians will not bite the bait.
They, instead of, will reinforce the militias with more men and better heavy artillery. It seems
that Donetsk airport will fall to militia's hand asap.
Not forgetting that it is a kind of war that will last years!
icurahuman2, 13 July 2014 3:19pm
"For every soldier's life, the militants will pay with dozens and hundreds of their own,"
said Ukraine's president, Petro Poroshenko after Friday's attack.
Reprisals? I thought that a military action was for winning a conflict not "repaying" soldier's
deaths with greater numbers on the oppositions side. Repisals are a war crime if I'm not mistaken.
rodney9 icurahuman2, 13 July 2014 4:14pm
I'm waiting for C. Ashton to justify this latest fanatical outburst of Poroshenko's and discover
how this remark completely correspond's to accepted European Foreign Policy.
In reality it is something we heard from well known figures in World War II. What was the logic?
For every German soldier killed.....a hundred would be shot?
How sad to think the EU is in bed with such people.
Manolo Torres rodney9, 13 July 2014 4:42pm
European Policies are very flexible. One year no one should relate to members of Svoboda because
of their neo-nazi ideology, the next year they congratulate an illegal government with many
Svoboda members on it
christopher22, 13 July 2014 3:19pm
I had a feeling something like this might happen while Putin is away in South America
The American neo-cons don't miss a trick do they ?
Of course all the morons applauding the Ukrainian neo-nazis might wish to pause and think
what this could mean if Russia respond and wipe them out
The sad thing is that the thugs are going to have to be put back in the box by force sooner
or later and it is highly unlikely that either the EU or US are going to step up and admit their
mistake.
WE should all know from personal experience that scum that will attack unarmed civilians
will not slope quietly away now that they have had a taste of pushing people around As the shell
firing into Russia proves, these people are not the smartest (especially if they think America
will rush to their aid militarily)
burnageblue11 christopher22, 13 July 2014 3:34pm
Funny, I thought the same thing. The US government exploited the Olympics to their advantage
in the Ukraine. Putin out off the Country was asking for trouble. I don't believe Kiev wants
peace. In my opinion they are nothing more than a Monkey dancing for the Organ Grinder ( US).
The US government is determined to instigate a proxy confrontation.
Putin is actually doing his damnedest to avoid it, unfortunately in my opinion it is all
in vain, conflict is all but inevitable. His inaction is being perceived as weakness. The forces
from Kiev are getting more and more brazen, he is unwittingly emboldening them. This could be
another test to see what they can get away with.
SapunovD, 13 July 2014 3:19pm
It's very interesting, why the "Ukraine's president" had cancelled his visit to Brazil at the
last minute? Instead of getting a chance to meet Putin face-to-face, try to settle the problem
peacefully by the talks, he suddenly remained at home and on the spot Ukrain's shelling killed
one and injured two in Russia and "Ukrainian army" began massive attack on Lugansk. And I wonder,
who really has aggressive intentions? Who really only talks about peace, but makes war?
A woman, refugee from Slavyansk, mother of 4, talks - video:
When [Kiev] army entered the
town, there was not one volunteer [fighting against the junta] there. The army started shooting
here and there, maraudering, [...] rape, kill children.
They nailed a 3-year-old boy, son of a volunteer, on a cross, like Christ. His mother and
other people lost consciousness. The kid died in one and half our, then they tied the mother
to a tank and dragged her...
I am from Zakarpatie. Even my mother says that she would kill me [because my husband is a
volunteer]. I am not afraid. If I didn't have my kids, I would get weapon and fight myself."
The journalist asked her "Aren't you afraid to speak about that?"
The woman said: "Let people
from all over the world know how these [Kiev army] violate humans. Because nobody believes it.
Nobody knows. There were phosphor bombs. There were those fragment mines. There were bodies
everywhere, smell, there was no place to collect them all, the morgue didn't work. The people
would not believe..."
Russian speaking Ukrainians are having their lives being made unbearable, they're fleeing in
their thousands to Russia. Many more who stay will be treated as second class citizens and eventually
also go east. This is approved ethnic cleansing, tolerated by the US and UK. However, it is
not worth a conflict that will only needlessly waste more lives both Russian and Ukrainian.
Better for Russia to accept the refugees, displaced civilians. The last laugh will be when they
make careers and wealth for Russia and not Ukraine.
OtchenStrana, 13 July 2014 3:22pm
Did the Ukrainian artillery target the "wrong" Donetsk? Or was it a misfire?
jonsid OtchenStrana , 13 July 2014 3:30pm
The Ukrainian forces attacking the East are not regular troops - they are a mixture of special
pivate armies financed by Ukrainian billionaires and right-sector fanatics determined to wipe
out anything or anyone not Ukrainian. In the Ukraine they are now running the show and terrifying
and endangering the whole nation as frankly they have no idea of the consequences of any of
their actions.
Nevertheless a few of the more deranged people here support everything they do - regardless
of how many innocents are killed.
burnageblue11, 13 July 2014 3:23pm
If Russia does respond very forcefully to this incident. Reading the International outcry in
the media should make very good reading. How anyone will be able to condemn Russia with what
is going on in Palestine is beyond me. Comparisons will undoubtedly be made.
Putin if clever,
should fully exploit this situation to his advantage. He could do irreparable damage to the
Kiev forces amassing in the East, reducing their capability to wage war. He need only cite protecting
his borders to kill without prejudice.
As the saying goes, what is good for the Goose is good for the Gander.
mary8stewart, 13 July 2014 3:24pm
Usual anti Russia racism.
The West thinks that any killings of east Ukrainians by the official
or unofficial Kiev (Ukraine) army are ok. But if the Ukraine protesters kill any of the Ukraine
army then it talks of sanctions etc.
How sad and short sighted of the West to not work for peace through negotiation of a federal
state system for Ukraine.
Wojtek Sokol mary8stewart, 13 July 2014 3:36pm
i am from america and i do not hate russia...
your assumption is based on the news you watch. most of americans dont hate or have racism
towards russia.
i for one understand that we all are part of the same family. you are my brother...why would
i hate you?
Матвей Тарасов Wojtek Sokol, 13 July 2014 4:12pm
This is not about ordinary people. But about those in power in US/EU. They still treat us as
enemies and think that killing any russian is good. I'm not sure if 'racism' is proper word
yet it's a chauvinism for sure.
WearyofthisSht, 13 July 2014 3:32pm
Mr Lysenko described the accusations as "total nonsense".
"The forces of the anti-terrorist
operation do not fire on the territory of a neighbouring country and they do not fire on residential
areas," he said.
Oh yeah? Well, there are just a few hundred videos floating around youtube showing the exact
opposite.
SadGirl, 13 July 2014 3:48pm
Western media (and the Guardian is not an exception) respond promptly only to those events that
have something to do with Russia.
But what about Ukrainian Donetsk and its region? Every day civilians die. I start my day
with catching up with the news in my country and every single day begins with the death toll.
I can't just can't make a peace with those scenes of horror I see on the news, can't adjust
my conscience like the absolute majority of people here (in Ukraine) who are absolutely at ease.
Here are some links from Ukrainian news site Кореспондент.net (again only Ukrainian sources
to avoid accusations in Russian propaganda.
1. July, 11-12. There are some photos, a video and information of destruction and killed
civilians in Petrovsky district of Donetsk (9 people and a 10-year old child) and Maryinka of
Donetsk region (officially 5 killed)
If you bother to translate with the help of Google you'll find I don't distort the given
information.
Actually It's far from the beginning of the list (I mean Slov'yansk, Lugansk, Kramatorsk...)
which will be continued, for sure.
Don't say that it isn't happening, I live here and know that it definitely is. It's been
happening for a long time for those who didn't voluntarily opt to be blind and there are very
few of them.
Why do I post knowing that nobody cares? Because my dead citizens whose relatives never got
any official condolence deserve at list a bit of media spotlight
StatusFoe, 13 July 2014 3:57pm
Russian media is reporting a battalion of 70 Ukrainian tanks has amassed on the outskirts of
Luhansk. I think Russian airstrikes against Uraine military are a distinct possibility.
priceus, 13 July 2014 4:09pm
Putin should watch the match at home like everybody else - especially with a war on his doorstep.
The US used Ukraine as a peon to create a flashfire between Russia and the EU - to destroy
relations. You have oligarchs and Western economic hitmen on one side and other oligarchs and
foreign partisans on the other - why should ordinary Ukrainian people who are just trying to
live care to have this war? People don't want to be flogged financially or shot at.
XeroMan, 13 July 2014 4:24pm
The USA's fostering of events in the Ukraine is one of the most dangerous games of brinkmanship
that they have engaged in for quite some time. While the ultimate goal of reducing Russia's
economic and political influence seems easy enough to accomplish, history is replete with great
plans that somehow spiralled out of control with unintended consequences. Should Russia respond
with military force to the provocations of the Ukrainian army they will be met with crippling
sanctions against them and diplomatic isolation. NATO will not support Ukraine militarily should
Russia invade, and on paper there is little risk to NATO. So in the end Russia suffers economically
and diplomatically, the EU is pulled away from closer ties with Russia and as for Ukraine...
well, the US doesn't really care about them anyhow. The US is a clear winner.
What the Americans seem to forget is that the Russians suffered terribly in WWII, suffering
horrendous casualties on their home soil. The fact that NATO has expanded to their borders is
a cause for great concern, feeding a deep rooted anxiety concerning the thoughts of invasion.
It seems that there is a sense of disdain, even contempt for the Russians in the West since
we "defeated" them, and their military has certainly fallen from its formidable heights. I would
encourage those who scorn Russia to look at the current state of nuclear arsenals. The website
Ploughshares . org has detailed reports on the state of nuclear arms. Consider not just the
numbers of warheads (of which Russia has the most), but read the reports. Russia is past the
halfway point of completely modernizing its nuclear forces. They have the most, they have the
newest. Scoff at their military out of blind arrogance, but should it ever come to blows between
NATO and Russia and NATO wipes the floor with Russia's conventional forces it would be a very
BAD thing. They are not modernizing their nuclear arsenal for show alone. They will not tolerate
another invading force on Russian soil.
It really is sad to see so many cocky, arrogant commenter's disrespecting Russia. Kids who
have no conception about what it was like to live through the cold war I guess. They'd probably
laugh at the scene in War Games (1983) when the screens lit up with Russian nuclear missile
launches. The possibility of a nuclear confrontation seems impossible for them to comprehend.
I suppose that is why it is so easy to provoke Russia, to encourage a patsy state to kill a
Russian citizen on Russian soil, and to kill Russian speaking Ukrainians on the border of Russia.
I certainly hope Russia does not invade, but the cross border shelling has happened before.
If my premise is correct, it will keep happening until Russia is forced to act, and when Russia
does it will suffer for it. It's dumb, short-sighted American arrogance. The saddest part is
that it seems like such a great idea. On paper at least.
SadGirl XeroMan, 13 July 2014 4:32pm
I can't rid of the feeling it's the beginning of a bigger war. I'm not panic, just observant.
Your comment is brilliant.
MrPaulDavies, 13 July 2014 4:26pm
The latest provocation on the Russia/Ukraine border, for that is without doubt what it is, seems
to reflect Kiev's failure to maintain the momentum following the tactical retreat from Slavyansk,
by the Seperatists, last weekend. It seems with each military setback on the ground, Kiev takes
up the same default position - provoke or lambast Moscow in order to rekindle western condemnation
(and future support if needed militarily) of Russia.
I often think of events during the reunification
or annexation (depends on your perspective) of Crimea with Russia a few months ago. A column
of Ukraine soldiers stood face-to-face with a group of Crimean separatists on a road outside
Savastapol. The world's media was present when out came the cry from Ukraine soldiers in English
"the Americans are coming". That was the intention, of course. And still is.
Now just prior to this incident on the border, its most notable that President Poroshenkos
so-called "nasty surprise" appears to have back-fired. On Friday
a column of his troops, on their way to deliver the "surprise", came under attack - suffering
significant casualties. And amid signs Kiev's troops are being pushed back it is clear Kiev
has been halted once more by the separatists. Hence, the latest attack and provocation on the
border comes as no surprise.
Meanwhile, President Putin is unlikely to rise to this latest incident with a military response.
In international terms, his statesman-like refusal to 'react' to these events, has won him support
and a certain amount of sympathy - particularly from non-western aligned nations. Moreover,
this latest provocation, followed by a measured, but firm, diplomatic response will only garner
more support internationally.
Whilst President Putin strengthens his position by 'doing nothing' however, his counterpart
in Kiev does not have that same luxury. President Poroshenko is left to the elements, quite
literally. The winds are not in has favour as he overlooks his lands. The rebellion in the east
shows no sign of easing. His economy is broken and reliant on loans. And as the winter approaches
he has the problem of securing gas supplies for his country. Then, of course, he has the small
matter of the immense cost of the conflict which he and his compatriots in the Kiev government
have failed to resolve.
If the Ukraine President can overcome his apparent ego, he will consider that the future
is grim. He will see that, above all at this moment, a diplomatic and
political solution is absolutely essential and that a "pleasant surprise" (rather than a "nasty"
one) from him would start to roll back the dark clouds that are
threatening on the national horizon.
A face-to-face meeting therefore, with representatives of the uprising, in a neutral location,
would be just such a welcome initiative.
DavidofLeicester MrPaulDavies, 13 July 2014 4:53pm
The government has not been pushed back but seem more to be keeping their distance from the
front line because the Separatists win hands down when it comes to close quarter combat. Kiev's
only effective weapons are missiles and aircraft and we've all seen the deadly effect they've
had on homes, schools, businesses, hospitals, an orphanage and shops but very little damage
to the Separatists or their morale. However, unless the Separatists start to receive heavier
weapons and more ammo they will eventually be defeated, but at what cost to the new government
and the country at large. This government will be hated forever more by the people in the East
because of the indiscriminate killings, destruction of homes and businesses and the constant
refusal to sit down and negotiate. Mr Paul Davies is right, a face to face meeting is essential
for both sides but the government seems to prefer war to jaw and damn the consequences.
Alcimar Luiz Callegari, 13 July 2014 4:35pm
There's an important thing that is not being taken in account by Kiev. The Donetsk and Lugansk
armies can attack Kiev anytime they want. For there's a war going on between the parties, thus
there's no need for ''provocation''.
At the moment East is in the defense position. Sooner or later they will realize that the best
defense is attacking. Then, they might send commands to Kiev and turn the scenario similar to
Iraq. Hit and run. This will probably be done in winter under very heavy weather condition.
But can be done earlier if Russia decides to help the commands with logistic(drones, satellite
position, guns, bombs,etc).
Oskar Jaeger Alcimar Luiz Callegari, 13 July 2014 4:38pm
Will they still be there in winter?
pigsdontfly, 13 July 2014 4:53pm
So, after we all know:
-about the coup in Ukraine and Nuland's phone conversation,
-about the fact the Crimeea was not "invaded" but annexed by Russia at the request of the population,
-about the many US official's visits in Ukraine to "advise" the so called "interim government"
after the coup,
-about the Right Sektor,
-about the National Guard that nobody really knows under who's command actually is and who exactly
are the members,
-about the hundreds of civilians killed by Ukrainian forces,
-about the fact that the so called "insurgents" or "terrorists" are actually ukrainian citizens
for the most part which would put the Ukrainian government under a genocide accusation,
-about the fact that there is no proof that the Russian army is involved except for the propaganda,
-about the fact that the Russian army didn't intervene even when it had the Parliament support
and, even more, Putin asked the Parliament to revoke that support,
-about the fact that this is the second incident on Russia's territory caused by Ukrainian forces
and it might be reason enough to start a real war,
...after we know all of this there are still people out there accusing Russia and Putin...?!
Unbelievable...
ID5677229, 13 July 2014 5:22pm
Putin is such a pathetic apology for a human being. He has permitted a stream of heavy munitions,
including tanks and rocket launchers, to cross from Russia into East Ukraine. He knows Ukraine
is desperate to stop the flow of munitions and terrorists into Ukraine from Russia, and consequently
that fighting on the East Ukraine-Russia border is inevitable. Anyone with three functioning
brain cells could predict that the occasional stray shell from Ukraine would land in Russia
in such circumstances. Yet he moans as if the incident were everyone's fault but his own.
By lifting the phone Putin could stop all fighting on the border in an instant: he has just
to close the flow of terrorists and munitions into Ukraine. He doesn't do it because he judges
that war in East Ukraine is in his own interests: he judges it will increase his power and influence
in the region.
Had the Russian people been worth its salt it would have rid the country of such a prick
years ago.
Kal El ID5677229, 13 July 2014 5:38pm
Obama is such a pathetic apology for a human being.
He has permitted US intervention to overthrow a democratic society in Ukraine with the aim
of capturing Russia's Sevastopol and installing NATO bases in mainland Ukraine.
He applauds civilian death and says the Ukr Govt is acting with "measuredly".
He applauds fleeing refugees and wheels out Psaki to claim that they aren't refugees at all,
just people on holiday who are obviously running to try and increase their VO2 max.
He undoubtedly sends arms discreetly along with the consignments of non lethal aid.
Yup, he is a thoroughly despicable being and if the people in the US had been worth their
salt they would have never voted the prick in the 1st time never mind the 2nd one.
Kal El, 13 July 2014 5:28pm
The Ukr forces shelled Slavyansk, killed civilians, denied it and blamed the "rebels".
On Friday the Ukr forces shelled Marinka, killed civilians, denied it and blamed the "rebels".
The Ukr forces fired a shell inside Russia, killed a man, denied it, and will almost certainly
blame the "rebels".
Is there ANYTHING that these spineless cowardly cun*s WILL take responsibility
for ?
Maybe Russia should send a death squad in to liquidate a few high profile Ukr ministers,
then just deny it and blame "infighting in the Ukr Government".
Live by the (lying) sword, die by the (lying) sword.
tanyushka, 13 July 2014 5:30pm
if Poroshenko says that for every Ukranian soldier killed 100 from Novorossiya will be killed,
considering that according to international organizations there have been more than twice as
many civilians as military deaths in this war, one has to asume that he pland to murder 46.000
civilians to make us pay for his precious 23 dead soldiers, right?
doesn't all of this sound
to you like the typical SS response to the partisans resistance in WW 2?
Hanwell123 tanyushka, 13 July 2014 7:31pm
The Nazi's were brilliant with violent language. Lost the war though when Ivan hit back.
warmongerPoro, 13 July 2014 5:33pm
http://youtu.be/LOpNfA2ma50
16 years old streamer Vlad has been arrested by Ukrainian authorities in Odessa on 25th of June
2014 in connection with allegations of collaborating with the rebels of South Eastern Ukraine.
Vlad is widely known for the live streaming of junta's crimes in Mariupol in May-June 2014.
moongibbon Pavel Y , 13 July 2014 6:40pm
Stopfake.org, very slick-looking website, run by the Mohyla School of Journalism. And who is
donating to the Kiev-Mohyla foundation, based in Chicago, which has a former US Ambassador on
its BoD?
The National Endowment for Democracy (aka the US State Dept) is pouring millions of dollars
into Ukraine, including donations to the Kiev-Mohyla Academy. But yeah I'm sure it's all completely
impartial and so on, just like the US State Dept itself.
The short term military outcome is pretty much irrelevant here. President Poroshenko, by using
military force against his own Ukrainian population in heavily populated areas has ensured the
further alienation of the east of the country from the Kiev government. Russia by economic and
political means will continue to destabilise Ukraine.
All this will lead to the inevitable eventual break up of the country. It will happen in
the coming months or years. The sensible course of action would be to negotiate a peaceful path
towards that end.
Hanwell123 tiojo, 13 July 2014 7:29pm
Absolutely right. You can't shell a besieged city of 1 million people and expect them to forget
about it because you can drive a tank through the centre. The Partisan war comes next. Does
Kiev have the stamina and money to wage a 10 year war? If not they are on a hiding to nothing
quattero, 13 July 2014 5:36pm
1/1/2014. The Ukrainian armed forces ( which had until very recently been largely conscripted),
are they wholly from western Ukraine?, is that really likely and if so why?, or do they represent
the whole of the country?. If they represent the whole country, will they really be taking part
in the bombing of the east?. It is reported some parts are being kept away from any action.
Talk is the only option.
Trudi Goater quattero, 13 July 2014 5:40pm
Kiev isn't only using the regular forces it's heavily reliant on the right sector to and I would
think they have no problem with bombing anyone.
truecomrade, 13 July 2014 5:46pm
my grandfather died fighting against fascists, and now the us and eu stand on the same platform
with them ;; are they going to become part of the eu ,if so I want my country [uk] out....
prem288855 Paul Moore, 13 July 2014 6:33pm
Svoboda AKA the NaSi party controls most of the military apparatus. And there are several Right
Sector dominated units in the National Guard. So yes - they run a hell of a lot in Kiev.
Johnny Kent ElvisInWales, 13 July 2014 7:45pm
It's so obvious that the US has said to Ukraine to keep pushing Russia-so does that mean the
US wants war with Russia?
Hanwell123 Johnny Kent, 13 July 2014 9:24pm
America wants to be able to impose full sanctions. The EU doesn't for very good reasons of their
own! But powerful as they may be that counts for nothing in Washington. What a shameful state
Europe is in!
ElvisInWales Johnny Kent, 13 July 2014 10:33pm
If they do, then its a pretty foolish policy!
Playing hard ball for high stakes against a
very nuclear capable country is pure insanity, the piss taking that went on with our elected
reps towards Russia is breathtakingly pathetic, both Kerry and Hague made look proper twats
in the process.
I think after Libya a good portion of the electorate woke up and realised nothings changed,
we see our media complicit, compliant and willing to spout out anything that is required of
them, it is worth noting how this rag is not allowing comments in regards to the crisis inside
Gaza, it appears they are affraid to walk the talk and the narrative must not be interupted
or questioned.
Fingers crossed though its not the case but there is only so much pisstaking any one can
take and bullies only know when to stop when they get a bloodied nose, hence my desire for Lavrov
to nut both Kerry and Hague and tell them to grow the fuck up or fuck off and if they want some
more they can have it as that is the only language our leaders here will actually listen too
until then they will go around the world behaving like over inflated peacocks on crack cocaine.
Hanwell123 Paul Moore, 13 July 2014 9:20pm
If Russia hadn't fought Finland which was being run by the pro Nazi Mannerheim then Leningrad
wouldn't have survived the siege as the border was just 40 km away and Finland controlled Lake
Lagoda. It wasn't until April 1945 before Finland changed sides and began liquidating Germans
without warning! NB there was a lot of criticism of Germany for it's handling of the siege;
random shelling into such a large city was thought to be a war crime...is the Chocolate man
listening?
StatusFoe, 13 July 2014 5:52pm
More reaction from official Moscow::
Leonid Slutskii Head of Duma Committe for Euroasian Integration
and Relations Between Ethnic Russians speaking to Interfax, cited by NTV.
"The citizen killed is our first victim of this war, which to set the record straight, is
already underway. But this is not a war between Russia and Ukraine. It's a fight of civilizations
for the Russian World and for the world's political architecture of the 21st Century and whether
it shall be unipolar or multi-polar. This war which is being forced upon us is a war for our
principles, and if we react there will of course be terrible losses and the deaths of thousands.
Nevertheless he says "Russia will not let its hand be forced by such provocations. Nobody
in the world today needs a third world war".
Howveer, he goes on to say the Uktainian army's plan is "after dealing with Donetsk and Lugansk,
to descend on Crimea," and that the Ukrainian army is "definitely not being controlled by Kiev."
"From this perspective, we can no longer tolerate such a situation and when blood is spilt
on Russian territory, we will have to respond with harsh measures," adding that measures will
be taken after an investigation which will take "minimum time".
So I reckon Russian airstrikes on the Ukrainian army will begin as soon as Putin's back from
the football.
rac1222 StatusFoe, 13 July 2014 5:57pm
I suggest strict reaction by border guard troops on provocations (I mean if someone shoots at
you of there are shells hitting your ground you shoot to kill or destroy the attacking mortars),
but no direct invasion on Ukrainian territory by any means.
retsdon StatusFoe, 13 July 2014 6:37pm
The American administration has some very dangerous people in it at this point in time. Not
only are they belligerent to the point of criminality, they are stupid to boot. It's the second
part that is so dangerous. It would seem that they actually believe that they can threaten Russia's
strategic interests, have their proxies conduct a war on Russia's border, engage in economic
warfare against Russia - and Russia will just roll over and take it.
These clowns are walking
us into another world war.
Caroline Louise, 13 July 2014 6:01pm
I hope people understand why Russia is so desperate to avoid being dragged into this war, and
what it will mean if they are dragged in. Russia and NATO will be fighting a war in Europe.
A war that is proxy on one side only and barely even that. It will be the most dangerous development
for world peace this century. Maybe since 1962.
And it will be a war deliberately brought
to us by the US for its own insane ends.
mary8stewart, 13 July 2014 6:22pm
FAILURE OF EU DIPLOMACY
The civil war in Ukraine is a demonstration of the failure of EU diplomats
to do their job properly.
Firstly, without our agreement, they meddle in Ukraine. Then they complain about any deaths
in Maidan but remain silent about the deaths in east Ukraine.
The official Ukraine army and the uncontrollable unofficial Kiev army are killing a lot of
people in east Ukraine. Some of them are civilians and children. Is this GENOCIDE??
The EU/US/UN should condemn these killings and rapidly work towards a peaceful negotiated
settlement of a federal Ukraine.
With soft borders between the different states. Over time this would result in a stable state.
This would certainly be the best solution for Ukraine. Though the West may have a different
selfish opinion!
Nenad Vidovic mary8stewart, 13 July 2014 8:08pm
Actually is not a failure of EU diplomacy. There is no such thing as a EU diplomacy.EU it's
just a lapdog of US foreign policy where unelected Brussels bureaucracy and 24/7 spied national
leaders repeat what Washington serve them.
PatriotUA, 13 July 2014 6:24pm
Man, if this shell had landed on Israeli territory from, say, Syria, we'd be discussing aviation
strikes on Ukrainian military positions, not some laughable "statement of grave concern" from
the Kremlin.
Trabecula, 13 July 2014 6:50pm
It's unbelievably shocking how western media is always steady portray the separatists as the
"bad guys" but always unable to point out the finger at the Ukrainian side, even when they obviously
are the ones shelling Donetsk and it's sorroundings, claiming civil, innocent lives! After all,
it's just like in Israel, where 3 tragic murders seem to be a reasonable excuse to kill hundreds
with the west's conivence!
prem288855 Trabecula, 13 July 2014 6:53pm
Laws don't apply to the you-know-whos. To even suggest such a thing is a thought crime.
Kal El, 13 July 2014 7:10pm
Even as a Pro-Kremlin (at least in this conflict) Westerner.
Putin's promise to safeguard
the lives of ethnic Russian's looks absolutely shocking when Russian's are killed inside Russian
territory and all that (at least so far) happens in retaliation is a few "words" of condemnation.
Russian citizens WON'T be happy with just "words" when shells are landing inside Russia and
killing them. If The Kremlin doesn't get its act together over this, and quickly, it could well
find itself suffering a big backlash at home.
Hanwell123 Kal El, 13 July 2014 7:13pm
Putin's responsibility is to Russia first and he can't risk a major economic onslaught which
will come if Russia dares help those in the East
We can only get an occasional glimpse of the Kiev attitude towards the people in the East, this
is the opinion of a Ukrainian political analyst quoting Ukrainian military experts. I find it
quite bizarre.
Surround a position. The first phase – announce in a speaker that the civilian population
must leave the territory in 1-3 days, after that everyone in the territory will be considered
to be a collaborator of the enemy.
A commenter called wombatman wrote this in response to another Ukraine news story:
Sippenhaft is the principle of families sharing the responsibility for a crime committed
by one of its members. It is a form of collective punishment. Used by Nazi Germany, and it is
revolting that something almost identical is happening now, by carried out by states who should
know better and are backed by the West, and the USA in particular.
It's very well put and reflects my own opinion, so I've quoted his comment instead of paraphrasing.
According to Kyiv Post, the fighters of the so-called "anti-terrorist operation" will be
given land in the east, for free. It makes you wonder whose land they will be gifted (presumably
the land of those who have fled from, or died as a result of the indiscriminate shelling of
towns and cities?) If the story is accurate, then surely this is a policy equivalent to ethnic
cleansing?
Ambricourt GuyGagne, 13 July 2014 8:15pm
The Ukrainian government imitates the methods of nineteenth-century Washington - motivating
their soldiers for indiscriminate killing of Indians and then using the soldiers to settle on
Indian lands.
Since they got away with it in Libya, the US hegemonists and their allies and proxies have
dropped the mask completely now. Refugees are now tourists, armed thugs are peaceful demonstrators,
shelling civilians is defending territorial integrity, etc,etc
They don't care that their lies are unbelievable, the same way that the state police in a
dictatorship don't care that the 'he fell from the window' line is unbelievable. It's the arrogance
and contempt of the audience displayed only by powerful people with black hearts
Popeyes 13 July 2014 8:05pm
Washington figured that with some provocation Putin would react the same way he did when Georgia
invaded South Ossetia. But, so far, Putin has resisted the temptation to get involved which
is why new puppet president Petro Poroshenko has stepped up the provocations by pummeling east
Ukraine mercilessly. The Russian government has so far demonstrated a level of restraint but
that could all change if Russian citizens are targeted. I don't believe that the US would be
so tolerant if Russia were supporting terrorist on their borders.
Hanwell123 Popeyes 13 July 2014 8:24pm
The longer it goes on the less likely Putin will react. He has to protect Russia and to fall
into this trap would be simply stupid. Leave Kiev to sort out and pay for the mess of their
own creation; leave them to sort out the fascists calling the shots; leave the EU to wriggle
about how to accommodate international criminals in their O so politically correct monster creation.
Putin is not, as is so often said, stupid!
richard1 13 July 2014 8:12pm
The end game of this conflict is being played out.
Putin's total failure in foreign policy will haunt him. He encouraged the Russian separatists,
and when they needed help he completely let them down. In the meantime, actively stirring Russian
nationalist feelings at home.
He annexed Crimea - but lost Ukraine, a nation closest to the Russians since the late 17th
century. Russia has now (in Europe) become friendless.
Amazing that these Putinbotts love this guy? he's a complete failure!
Hanwell123 richard1 13 July 2014 8:19pm
He lost Ukraine to a coup d'état in February. It would have been criminal of him in terms of
Russian history to lose Crimea too! He is on the back foot because the US and the EU are pushing
Russia back. It's been European policy for over 300 years.
Kaiama richard1 13 July 2014 8:20pm
Looking at it slightly differently, Russia subsidised Ukraine with cheap gas for 22 years and
somehow managed to keep a divided country together. 5 minutes after the US involved themselves
and it all falls apart.
Martin1008 13 July 2014 8:30pm
Comments are not pro Russian because the people are pro Russians, it is because many people
here are educated and not brainwashed radicals. Russia and EU has good relationship and strong
bussiness interest that is what US is enviouse for.
Russia is not isolated at all, and their
main allies are very powerfull, for exaple India.
If you study how EU reactions changed in last month:
1. EU stoped verbal attack on Russia
2. Appretiation of Poroshenko military campaign decreasing.
3. After International Bussiness Forun in Petersburg, EU have put no more sanctions against
Russia economy but only on UA independent military leaders.
4. Poroshenko's administration last week declared that EU is becoming reluctant in providing
powerful support.
See the changes, something will happens. Maybe US will continue to pursuit their plan. But
east Ukraina will become independent with or without Russia military. No war against Russia
is comming, and if US will do, EU is not going to join it. We do not have interest in it.
Situation may actually become very precise and the duplicity of politics will take place.
For instance if Russia military will enter Ukraina the UA will ask for NATO support as already
promised by US. If NATO will not enter Kiev may become angry and turn against Europe. So if
EU military will enter Ukraina it will not be for fight with Russia but to keep west UA military
calm down. Before Russia will intervent there will be agreement on a border lines.
Is your failure to understand that "sanctions" against individuals are not sanctions against
a nation the result of honest confusion or a simple refusal to understand that which doesn't
fit your preconceived worldview?
As for Pew polls, why would you expect US and European attitudes
toward Russia to be other than than negative in the wake of a months-long barrage of
blatant propaganda by Western governments and mainstream media?
"Think of the press as a great keyboard
on which the government can play."
Some Ukrainians are expressing concern that while it is fine for their "neo-nazi" colleagues
to slaughter people in the east there may be problems with them back home in Kiev. The Kiev
authorities view seems to be to allow them a free-reign in the ATO and then ban the group once
the fighting is over.
It may be that easy but I doubt it
SHEKHOVTSOV: Ukrainian neo-Nazis are preparing "a new revolution"
Billionaire Oligarch Poroshenko's Regime, supported by World bank / IMF funding: USA / EU Finance
& EU / NATO support, is de facto ethncly cleansing Eastern Ukraine of Russian nationals with
the Iron Fist of Fascistic Militaristic enthusiasm: Why is the UN Sec Council & Sec Gen Silent
when flagarent and gratuitous braech of UN Declarations on Human Rights, Self Determination
and Cultural Identity are being breached. The People in Eastern Ukraine are ordinary Civilians,
men women and children: Disabled and Elderly. They are being 'pummelled into submission by the
Kiev Right Sector and Sovboda led Regime. What is further disquieting is that UK and EU support
for Poreshenko's fascistic tactics is being carried out without the consent of European and
UK Citizens yet de facto in our name and funded by the UK and EU Taxpayer - This has highlighted
a huge democratic deficit whereby UK & EU Citizens can have the nation commit to supporting
a Fascistic Regime - including EU and NATO de facto membership - However, our thoughts must
be with Innocent Civilians who are in fear of death and destruction by Kiev arms and military
de fact funded by the EU / NATO and by consequence, you and I - Disgraceful!!
"We will use military force, unilaterally if necessary, when our core interests demand it.
International opinion matters, but our country will never ask permission …"
Who
said this? Was it...
a. Adolph Hitler
b. Vladimir Putin
c. Barack Obama
Doug Salzmann -> Caroline Louise 13 July 2014 9:28pm
For those who need a hint, the same speaker said, in the same speech:
"I believe in American exceptionalism with every fibre of my being."
Perhaps not entirely logical but certainly effective. Given that so much of U.S. propaganda
is based on an entirely spurious "moral high ground," anything that points out that it's all
a pack of lies greatly diminishes the impact of such propaganda.
You can play the "whataboutery" card, but we will continue to point out that every time the
U.S. (metaphorically) opens its mouth, it's lying and dissembling and accusing its enemies of
behavior that itself has indulged in, and to a degree that a relatively weak state like Russia
could only dream of. Russia intervenes in its "near abroad." The U.S. intervenes everywhere
in the world. There really is no comparison between the imperial ambitions (or at least abilities)
of the two states.
This is a reality, even if it's one that is rarely discussed or acknowledged in Western media.
So in fact every time you and your cohorts whine about Russian behavior, it's YOU who are engaged
in "whataboutery."
Popeyes, 13 July 2014 9:19pm
The E.U. is just a minor irritation to Washingon with the US controlling the whole chibang,
including NATO which is more than 70% financed by the U.S. Victoria Nuland's comments f...k
the E.U when asked if Europe should get more involved in the government coup completely sums
up Washington's arrogance and contempt for Europe. That leaves only two players in the game,
the U.S. and Russia. Washington are in no hurry to end the conflict and Russia appears to be
sitting it out. It is decision time for America, but this requires a vision which appears beyond
what the current freaks in power can even begin to contemplate.
burnageblue11 Popeyes, 13 July 2014 11:16pm
Pretty much how I see things. All Merkel does is pay lip service to Putin, she may personally
even sympathize with his predicament. Before then informing him that the EU official line is
simply the same as the US official line, and her hands are tied. They are one and the same.
Merkel tries to appear like she is independent off Washington, it is all a charade. The US is
the major player in the Ukraine. And the United States will decide where this all goes from
here.
In my opinion the United States is intent on bringing conflict to Europe by hook or
by crook for geopolitical reasons. It does not want closer economic ties between Russia and
China, EU. This will be to the detriment off the United States. It does not want the new South
Stream Pipe Line going on line, already the US is pressurizing Bulgaria.
The US wants to oversee the de-federalisation and break up of Russia. The US realizes that
Russia will only get stronger from here on in, and the time to act is now.
We are going to war whether we like it or not. The EU will follow the US blindly in to conflict.
All we are seeing now is the attempts to spark the conflict. Bombing Russian civilian Houses.
If that does not work it will be bombing Russian soldiers. As the US becomes increasingly desperate,
we may even see a US Ship sunk in a " False Flag" accusing Russia. Conflict in my opinion is
inevitable. Ukraine is being fully exploited.
To hear some commentators you would believe that this crisis started because former President
of Ukraine, Victor Yanakovych, turned his back on the EU and suddenly decided to go with Russia
economically.
This was the line that western media and certain prominent political leaders pushed on the
eve of the crisis in November 2013 just before the maidan demonstrators encamped themselves
in central Kiev.
The script then developed to read that the people of Ukraine were desperate to join the EU
and unshackle themselves from Moscow. You will remember the newsreels of thousands in Independence
Square - a second orange revolution was line being pushed by the west.
But this was a blatant misrepresentation of the true feelings on the ground. This piece is
from the Kiev Post in mid-November just before the maidan protests started and reports on recent
opinion polls. Its interesting now, in the light of events since:
"Ukraine is split practically 50/50 over the accession to the European Union or the Customs
Union. Europe is favored by 39 percent of Ukrainians, and 37 percent prefer the Customs Union,
said the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology".
"Some 76 percent of the Ukrainians polled in the middle of this November said they were ready
to take part in a referendum on the foreign policy vector".
"Same as before, the European Union is mostly chosen over the Customs Union in the western
and central regions (69 percent vs. 11 percent and 43 percent vs. 27 percent), while the Customs
Union is more popular in the southern and eastern regions (51 percent vs. 29 percent and 61
percent vs. 15 percent)".
The most interesting point you should consider is that support FOR Europe had been steadily
declining in the months leading up to the Maidan protests. A little longer and Yanakovich might
have called a referendum and won it. Thats why the US, EU and certain groups in West and Central
Ukraine had to act when they did.
jonsid -> MrPaulDavies, 13 July 2014 9:41pm
That's a very interesting link and I genuinely wasn't aware of how low the support for closer
EU ties actually was. Which begs the question - why is the EU getting involved in a country
with such low support for membership? The logical answer would seem to be that there is no intention
on the EU of allowing the Ukraine membership but merely keeping them in a state of permanent
"association" as they've done with Turkey for years. This allows opening up of the Ukraine for
expoiltation without the need for actually allowing them (that's the Ukrainian people) the full
benefits of membership (living wage, working conditions, development grants/subsidies etc.)
It does rather look as though the Ukrainians have been mugged by their billionaire leaders
yet again.
jonsid, 13 July 2014 9:27pm
Kiev is dispersing refugees from the violence to various other towns and cities around the Ukraine.
Some of these regions are already complaining about the influx which suggests ethnic divisions
are greater than Kiev would like us to believe with their "united Ukraine" narrative. I wasn't
aware that all displaced people are being forced to have their fingerprints taken by the police.
What purpose can this serve?
Refugees from Donbas refuse to work – deputy head of the Dnipropetrovsk Oblast State Administration
These costings were proposed by the Brussels based Energy Charter Trust.
There's big money at stake here.
Theodore Svedberg, 14 July 2014 1:07am
It is in Russia's interest to preserve a unified Ukraine that is neutral between east and west.
If sufficiently provoked they will intervene overtly but the outcome would be bad for Russia.
It be worse for Ukraine.
The best outcome is that SE Ukraine and all of the oblasts east and
north of the Dneipr River would secede from but that would leave central and western Ukraine
firmly in the NATO orbit. That would be a set back for Russia as well leaving the rump Ukraine
as a failed state that would be little more than granary for Europe and provide a work force
that could pick potatoes in Poland and clean toilets in Bulgaria.
The worst outcome would involve war between Russia and NATO on a Ukrainian battlefield.
DaveHodge, 14 July 2014 1:13am
I would think that anyone with half a scrupple can see the Ukraine government is under instructions
from the US to provoke Moscow.
The key problem for Yatsenyuk is that Ukraine started to deviate from junta proposed universal explanation
of economic difficulties: "If there is no running water, it's due to evil Muscovites ", and personally
Vladimir Putin. The Ukrainian government squeezed salary for state and municipal workers -- Putin is
to blame, they stopped paying /reduced social security payment - again, Putin is guilty, shuttles
stop to run - again Putin. But Putin-is-guilty scare does not work forever. After some point people
start to look at Yatsenyuk and Turchinov. And to feel this look might be very uncomfortable for a Washington
rabbit. So "Washington rabbit" probably start to feel that it's time to move to Miami or San Francisco
where his sister is living.
As I said that Senya behaves inadequately, for a very simple reason. He does nto intent to solve
the mess that he created. Now Senya "Bullet in the forehead" Yatsenyuk want to resigns, in order
not to get a kick into the sheen later! Or God forbid, a real bullet. And it is easy to be a
seer in his case! Well, not so powerful as this old woman Wanga from Bulgaria had been, but
still... He simply started feeling with his nose the smell of fried flesh. And that the autumn
might well bring "fruits" of EuroMaidan with this particular smell in full force.
Is it possible? The resignation of Yatsenyuk might be the sible best event in Ukraine over the
last six months. But he might trying to fool people, and this is just a gesture; he will stay.
But on other hand he might decided that to wait until the autumn does not make any sense
and that economy collapse is inevitable. Apparently he lost any hope that the situation improves.
While Yatsenyuk is definitely is a scum, but he is far from being stupid.
Disgusting and VERY GRAPHIC images from today's shelling by junta army in Donetsk.
...Anyway, the junta shelled a suburb of Donetsk with GRADs. So far there has been at least
30 civilian victims and many more injured. The death toll might be anywhere between 30 and 300.
I guess this was Poroshenko's response for the successful rebel attack on junta army. The
UN will not condemn this. The Finnish media will probably not even mention it. This is disgusting
and disheartening.
Right now I'm sick of the media of my country. While they are accusing Igor Strelkov of being
"a Stalin" and a "human rights violator" they are either completely ignoring or downplaying
war crimes committed by the junta.
They have made me hate words such as "democracy", "human rights" etc. Not bec
After watching such videos and seeing how Stasi was "sent on vacation" at militaryphotos for
showing glee at the death of these regime butchers I think the west is hopeless. It is so high on
its self-ascribed moral "superiority" that any crime no matter how egregious can be fobbed off as
"collateral damage by the good guys" or just ignored. People in oppressed societies actually care
more than the over-fed self-righteous chauvinist lemmings that populate the west.
But the chickens are coming home to roost. I wish them godspeed.
karl1haushofer, July 12, 2014 at 5:07 pm
I agree on everything but you describe only half of the problem.
One half of the problem is what
you said. The downright evilness and hypocrisy of the West.
The other half of the problem is the weakness and disunity of the rest of the world. There is
not a united front to confront the West. Russia has also been guilty of betrayals (refusal to honor
an arms deal with Iran, refusal to veto against attack to Libya). This must stop.
Hopefully Russia will wake up soon and start bombing the shit out of junta forces. Otherwise
we will see more of massacres like this. I mean there has to be some red line for Russia too?
Voice of Carnegie Endowment for Permanent war ;-). Quote: "The source seems like something
funded by neocons, Soros and etc. I guess this is their idea of what we are supposed to think regarding
the events."
Thus, both Poroshenko and Putin have to walk a very fine line because of their respective domestic
political situations. Perhaps Moscow will realise that Poroshenko could gain much-needed political
capital if he can deliver a military victory that would empower him to make the deals that Russia
needs and wants from him. The ball is in Putin's court.
Balázs Jarábik is a visiting scholar at Carnegie Endowment for International Peace focussing
on Ukraine and eastern Europe
Selected Comments
MonsieurPetanque, 09 July 2014 11:22am
It is also noteworthy that the word "junta" has disappeared from Russian state media's descriptions
of the government of Ukraine.
And in turn from the lexicon of many posters here.
Z'ing Sui -> MonsieurPetanque, 09 July 2014 11:46am
I see that change of tone is noted by a lot of people and media, but isn't the explanation
pretty straightforward - I think the word "junta" starting disappearing from pro-Russian vocabulary
roughly coincides with Poroshenko assuming power.
Being an elected leader, winning by a big margin in nationwide elections makes him legitimate
by almost any book. No need to imply or search for some mastermind giving out actual vocabularies
to propaganda media and comments section bots, the word is simply not appropriate, however you
stretch it.
Scipio1 -> MonsieurPetanque, 09 July 2014 1:05pm
''It is also noteworthy that the word "junta" has disappeared from Russian state media's
descriptions of the government of Ukraine.
And in turn from the lexicon of many posters here.''
You can put lipstick on a pig but it is still a pig. Interesting report from the
BBC man in Slavyansk yesterday. It ended with the journalists observing that in addition to
the Ukrainian flag being hoisted, there was also the black and red flag of Pravy Sektor on view.
Of course I will be diplomatic and call them by their name of convenience, to wit the National
Guard. I wonder what these gentlemen are up to? social work perhaps? Or winning hearts and minds?
Funny, what comes to my mind is 'disappearing' now that the atrocity de jour - incinerating
your opponents a la Odessa is temporarily off the agenda.
Two points to make about Poroshenko:
He is not making the decisions, the US State Department and CIA are.
His invasion of the East is a nasty, kid-killing exercise, example of the type of ideological
total war which is not uncommon in this part of the world.
In literal terms he may not be a Nazi but he certainly has them at his back domestically
baying for blood which he needs to satisfy (having first cleared it with his Washington masters
of course.
In terms of ending the war, how do you seal a frontier - Russian/ Ukraine 1500 miles long.
It is foolish to imagine that the Don Bass people are not going to fight on. There will be no
agreement without their consent and Putin and Porshenko had better realise this. Big power decisions
taken over the heads of people seldom leads to peace.
A good analogy has been the British struggle against the nationalists in Ireland. Whatever
they Republic did to aid the process of the British campaign - closing the border, outlawing
the IRA, imprisoning nationalist in the south - the IRA continued their campaign for decades.
Eventually the British authorities had to negotiate an uneasy peace conceding many points.
Ruling by force alone never works and the legitimate concerns of the local people need to
be addressed. However, Poroshenko and his Washington masters "legally" banned from standing.
I think I'll keep referring to the Junta in Kiev.
Bakaro -> underlander, 09 July 2014 7:54pm
His invasion of the East
Are you sure an army can invade a region inside its own country?
The Ukrainian army is acting like invaders, bombing the cities and destroying water and energy
supplies. They were even promised the land and housing of the "separatists" as a reward after
their "victory". How this is not invasion?
Bakaro -> underlander, 10 July 2014 10:09am
A war is a war, but why use mortar and artillery fire against a village which never had any
'separatists' in it? Why hit schools, hospitals, apartment buildings and etc? Why target water
and energy supplies? Looks like they are trying to drive people from their land. My point was
that Ukrainian army is acting like the invaders. Are you saying this it is not the case just
because there were no massive air strikes (yet)? And what Russian TV has to do with it?
But surely all those bullshit about Ukrainian army using cluster bombs, phosphorous bombs,
mass shooting of civilians and kind in particular etc just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
There were several videos taken by residents and 'separatists' in Semenovka showing what
looks a lot like phosphorous bombs.
There are rumors of adult men being killed by National Guard in the 'liberated' towns. Of
course, they didn't invite the journalists to observe, but how do you know that it "does not
stand to to scrutiny"? After events in Odessa on May 2d, it is not unimaginable, especially
since the very same people are now being recruited into National Guard.
One of the 'liberators' from battalion Donbass says that they were firing at everything that
moves, including dogs and people, while 'liberating' the village of Nikolaevka. He also says
that, as they discovered later, there were no 'separatists' there.
Having just watched two days of Russian TV news it is full of images of destruction in Eastern
Ukraine and refugees fleeing to Russia while Jen Psaki is shown denying that their is a refugee
problem. I find it a bit difficult to reconcile with this analysis.
This article seems a few days too late. With government forces pressing the offensive and giving
up on the ceasefire, what do the five supposed reasons for Russia's U-turn matter?
More, the article seems self-contradictory, both paragraphs -
"It probably was not lost on Poroshenko - or on Putin - that more Ukrainians supported
negotiations with the separatists than the military option."
"Further inaction might have caused Poroshenko a loss of trust among many Ukrainians
"
and while the source shows that most Ukrainians supported negotiations over military
action, it fails to back the implication that prolonging a cease-fire would have meant loosing
people's trust.
I understand that the article originates not from the Guardian, but from some smaller outlet,
but it gives the impression of a quite poorly written/edited piece. Lots of links, no substance.
The core of the article - the five reasons seem like pure speculation, and a lot of important
assumptions are not backed by analysis or sources.
So , instead of reporting about Ukrainian Jets bombing civilians 5 days ago , TheGuardian
reports about Putin...
Instead of reporting about Ukrainian Forces now shelling Luhansk killing more civilians,
they prefer to talk about the " Evil Aggressor Communist "....
Balázs Jarábik is a visiting scholar at Carnegie Endowment for International Peace focussing
on Ukraine and eastern Europe.
The source seems like something funded by neocons, Soros and etc. I guess this is
their idea of what we are supposed to think regarding the events.
Jeremn, 09 July 2014 12:05pm
Any article that links to an article in the Economist by way of supporting reference is suspect.
That's a heavily anti-Russian publication.
And on such a sensitive issue as the Odessa fire too. Even a tragedy is twisted into calling
for support for a Ukrainian government intent on forcing people to obey it.
Putin never made a u-turn. He has been calling from the beginning for a political settlement
that involves federalism.
Those who have made a u-turn are the Russophobes wjho have completely misread Putin's intentionsrom
the beginning. The never saw the Russian takeover of Crimea coming and they thought he was goping
to invade Eastern Ukraine and he didn't.
Now they're scrambling to save what is left of their tattered reputations by claiming Putin
did a u-turn to explain away their total cluelessness.
While I understood the use of the term "junta", I have never been fond of it. I've always preferred
"coup-gang, neo-nazi government, Kiev regime, illegal government", etc". And since, even with
the Presidential election (illegal in itself) the core of the regime is still intact. I see
no reason to change my terms, for a regime that is the same as before the "election". And as
I'm not a Russian government employee (though pro-Russian). I can call them, as I see them to
be.
Junta or not a junta is neither here nor there as with Poroshenko's election the Neo-Nazis are
still in the same positions of power as before. Right Sektor and allied ultranationalisrs still
have not been disarmed
Poroshenko's "election" is a fig leaf to hide the ugliness of the current regime, to give
it a veneer of respectability.
From day 1 Russia has said that it is not interested in sending forces to Ukraine.
But since western MSM ran scaremongering propaganda about imminent Russian invasion they
now have to explain why it did not happen by pretending that Putin changed his mind due to ineffective
sanctions or some other crap.
Of course Russia does not want wars on its border and in the region, that is why Russia
campaigned against a war in Syria.
"The ministers discussed settlement of the Ukrainian crisis, according to the Russian Foreign
Ministry. "The French minister emphasized the ongoing aggravation of the situation in the southeastern
regions of the country, while acknowledging that in practice the authorities in Kiev have departed
from the agreements reached by the foreign ministers of Ukraine, Russia, France and Germany
in Berlin on July 2, 2014″
With the Italian FM also adding
"Another important aspect is that all members of the contact group assume the task set for
them, an unconditional, bilateral and stable ceasefire. And so they perceive their partners
in the contact groups as participants in the process, not as people, from whom they demand capitulation,"
A few moves indicate a slightly change of strategy from the Kremlin.
Whilst Lavrov made it clear that any attempt to retake Crimea will lead to a war, Putin is
excluding any military intrusion in East Ukraine, also backed up by Russians.
On the other hand gas talk are on the table again with Ukraine owing Gazprom a 5,5b€, and
South Stream being hugely supported by Italy amongst the other countries concerned.
Parallely Kiev intends to ban the communist party which have a 23 seats at the Parliament,
another step towards democracy made in Ukraine. Will they however also ban the far rights parties
which would be a wise move to calm the separatists.
Decentralisaton is still in the menu, but no granted of Russian language which remains a
mistake. At the same time Ukraine is rewriting the story books for school depicting Russia as
an ennemy to Ukraine, another big mistake, a rewriting of the story for the future generations.
In any case decentralisation will not be enough and it is not excluded that Kiev might reconsider
Federalism for East Ukraine if EU pushes for a trilateral market deal which does not seem totally
off the table as it stands today.
It is always painful to see the lack of coverage in the media regarding East Ukraine, no
words on civilians killed, nor refugee, or so little when dead Kiev soldiers get maximum coverage.
True that if the truth was to come to light at the same pace we are informed on Gaza, the public
opinion could be indignated which could then justify a Russian intervention to give East Ukraine
a referendum to join with Russia, still the West omertà has reached levels not seen since the
Cold War.
Putin has been the one playing the peace card since the beginning and it seems that this
option will now prevail. We expect the EU to understands this and slowly detach from the US
War hunger. By the way there are currently 9 NATO ship in the black sea...
I don't see where the author see's that Poroshenko and Ukraine is trying to deal with Russia.The
new MoD just said he promises a mythical "Ukrainian victory parade in Sevastopol".Which if any
other country's military chief said that about another country there'd be an instant war,or
at least a major world crisis over that statement.Then,Poroshenko was defied by his warlords
and neo-nazi private armies over the ceasefire..And promptly got scared and canceled it.That,and
the fact that masked fascist influenced mobs roam Kiev.Attacking anyone,and anything,that they
don't like.Shows that the "official" regime doesn't control the men with gun power in Banderastan.What
kind of a deal could Russia hope to make without a pardner to the deal able to make sure it
was followed up on.
This article glosses over the real truth that Marx wrote of. i.e. 'Economic Determinism'.
Russia never really wanted the economic 'basket case' of the Ukraine. Prior to the recent
troubles Russia was massively subsidising the Ukraine in gas prices and had even offer a cheap
loan of $15 bill. with more to come. It was more than happy with just annexing the Crimea, which
meant it no longer had to give a gas price discount or pay rent.(or lend money unlikely to be
re paid any time soon)
Now the Ukraine or its proxy the West can and will pay top $ for its gas & deal with the
millions of unemployed and rubbish industry in the east of the Ukraine.
The sanctions are & were a joke for Russia.
This Russian show has always been run by the very intelligent PM Dmitry Medvedev, ex Chairman
of Gasprom. (not so much macho man Putin.....there is a reason the USA embassy called them Batman
and Robin, apart from the fact that they ran the biggest state kleptocracy! per wikileaks)
Do any of you readers recall just before annexation he (Robin) announced the resumption of
the building of the bridge connecting Russia with Crimea?
Water, power and supplies could come that way if negotiations with Ukraine are difficult.
It was all a pre planned chess move.
Crimea was and will remain Russian despite what even the new president says!
Russia wants and needs the gas income from the West and Ukraine, if the West pays for it ..
all the better.
BTW, Putin would much rather be part of the European 'western' club rather than be forced
to a union with commie China.
We in the West should encourage Russia to be a part of the West (and its Human rights and
press freedoms and democracy).
Russia was part of Europe (as opposed to Asia, China, Mongolia) for millennium.
The cold war is over (thank God) let's keep it that way.
This crisis was a result of the EU and USA's mishandling of the whole affair.
This is a strange analysis indeed. To prove the U-turn, the author is applying the history
of events to suit his conclusion. Not very clever, methinks!
The 'mandate' was always a tool to apply / reduce pressure for negotiations. This was
clear from the start. If you think that the legislature would hesitate in once again providing
the mandate within a second's notice should putin want it, you are insane. It was a card played.
That's all.
As for the Crimea vs East analysis, Putin was clear from the off set that Eastern Ukraine
was less supportive of Russia and therefore required a different solution. While the west was
insisting on a daily basis that Russia was about to invade, Putin was in fact analysing the
facts as they were, not as they were reported! It is interesting that his analysis is now, several
months later, being used against him!
And the continual repetition of bad economic performance as though its economy were doing
so much worse than others' is pathetic. Russia is not dependent upon the west as much as the
west would like it to be! And let's look at the EU's position ... not exactly 'staunch' given
that Austria signed the South Stream deal a couple of weeks ago!
The only comment in the article that deserves some attention is that of the Separatists not
being able to find a credible leader.
A U-turn on Putin's part? Russia has consistently emphasized diplomacy and negotiation in its
attempts to resolve the ongoing crisis and instability in Ukraine since former President Yanukovych
refused to sign the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement back in November last year. It is the Poroshenko
regime that keeps wavering and putting up ceasefires conditional on the pro-Russian separatists'
surrender (but not on Ukrainian forces' downing of arms) and rescinding them whenever the separatists
perceive they must make all the concessions.
The Russian government cannot be blamed for refraining from supplying the rebels with arms.
The Kremlin knows full well that doing so would play into persistent US attempts to demonise
Russia as an aggressor. It's a case of damned if they and damned if they don't. So far Russian
restraint and recourse to international law have frustrated the US government which has been
itching for excuses to include Ukraine and Georgia in NATO and to stock Ukraine and the Baltic
States with NATO missiles along their borders with Russia.
Much of the rest of Balázs Jarábik's article is divorced from the real world. Perhaps he
should be reminded that the fire in the Odessa Trade Union Building was deliberately lit by
Pravy Sektor thugs inside
to disguise the mass murder of pro-federalism rally activists forced inside by rioting "football
fans" who were actually oligarch politician Ihor Kolomoisky's Dnepr-1 Battalion hirelings and
other fascists. Perhaps Balázs Jarábik should also be reminded that Hungarians in Zakarpattia
Oblast in far western Ukraine have also been unhappy at the Kyiv regime's turn to extreme right
nationalism.
And as for The Guardian's sub-heading gloating in Kyiv's supposed victory over the rebels
in Slavyansk, I would hardly regard the escape of Igor Strelkov and his men (a decision made
freely by Strelkov) to Donetsk city through a Ukrainian military encirclement of a town as a
defeat. The separatists took this move when they realised the Ukrainian army's aim was to completely
destroy the town. Their escape must be considered a tactical retreat.
The fact remains that for over two months a group of rebels held off the might of the Ukrainian
army and air force in Slavyansk: that the rebels then decided to leave and managed to do this
successfully with odds stacked against them is no small feat either. It remains to be seen whether
the Ukrainian army can hold the town or completely demolish it after sending away remaining
residents (who most likely will never be seen again); or if President Poroshenko graciously
deigns to rebuild it using IMF loan funding from his bank accounts.
Before the Ultra's took over the Maiden demonstration this article seems to forget that President-Poroshenko,
and Prime Minister Yats were members of the corrupt governments of the past, in fact all Maiden
achieved is a continuation of the same, a cabal of thieves and oligarchs.
The best hope for the Ukrainian government in implementing the austerity measures 'needed'
to pay back the IMF loans and gas debts to Gazprom would actually be a Russian invasion.
Nearly half of the projected loans will never actually arrive in the Ukraine, $8 billion
will go directly to western financial institutions, holders of government securities, $3 billion
to pay back Gazprom.
The austerity measures will entail 50% cutbacks in pensions and social services
Ukraine will find it difficult to export to Russia and the question is, is, there a market in
the EU/USA for Ukrainian products ?
Will the free trade agreement be a one way movement of goods?
It looks very much that a large proportion of. People in the Ukraine will be out of a job.
Ukraine is bankrupt, so called economic reforms will be pushed through enabling western corporations/financial
institutes to buy up resources on the cheap.
Russia is probably happy that the basket-case Ukraine will bleed the USA/EU coffers, the last
thing they want is to invade the Ukraine, the west will pay the bills and face the backlash
in the winter of discontent.
The Ukrainian people will turn on this government when they find that they have jumped out
of the frying pan into the fire,
The US State Department has defended Kiev's right to use airstrikes in eastern Ukraine explaining
that it is defending the country. "The government of Ukraine is defending the country of
Ukraine and I think they have every right to do that as does the international community,"
State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said in response to RT's Gayane Chichakyan's question
about Ukrainian air force strikes in eastern Ukraine. "The people of Ukraine have the right
to live in peace and security without Russian-backed separatists attacking their homes and going
into buildings and I think that is where the root cause of this is and we shouldn't forget that
fact," Psaki added. The rebels in Donetsk and Luhansk should surrender to avoid further
unnecessary casualties and seek asylum in Russia.
Overall, I think that relatives (Ukrs) are brought up the same as Russians - hope that a tsar
will come and sort out everything, and on yourself nothing depends :o), and what is convenient
in it - one doesn't have to do any thing! :o)
The tsar will take care, them up there know better :o), and all.
East of Ukraine didn't sign for any bombings and civil war, that they are being actually
really blown up and have to dig up prehistoric guns and rifles and go to war.
They signed in the referendum for the Crimean solution - that they vote and then small green
men come and do the fighting on their behalf, if needed.
And then they get Russian passports and finance, standard of life increases, and all one has
to do is go toss a vote once.
Pity Westerners don't comprehend Russian language, because the hundreds of video-s in youtube
where Easterners mourn or moan or both about their losses are all very passive - they are like
sheep, not in revenge mode to any one - but more in style of lamenting nature's cruel forces,
that suddenly all the troubles befell on them from the sky. Well, literally, from the sky.
There was a big woman saying "Poroshenko! We all heard you got a new granddaughter! We were
happy for you! As a new life, a new family member.
And look what you have done with my little granddaughter! (shows the bombing place) How can
you, are you a President of the country after that, are you insane, what has taken on you, I
think you are beyond normal mind."
On one side, she criticises. to put it mildly. her President. On the other hand - she clearly
recognises it IS her President. And says nil about revenge or any thing. Just, laments her losses.
They are quite peaceful, Easterners, and awaiting that someone else - anybody - Russia or
Poroshenko or any tsar - will sort it out - that it is peace again. They don't care who, in
their majority.
Most say "better Russia" - asked "Why, if there's no difference" - reply that "Russia is
better to keep order, you can't compare with the mess of Ukraine".
While The NY Times is happy to inform that the Ukrainian armed forces "have overcome that psychological
barrier in which the military were afraid to shoot living people", for Russians the citizens
of Russia and Ukraine are still one nation.
From the very beginning of the conflict Putin keeps telling how important is to save their
lives. And Russia acts accordingly trying to use any slightest opportunity to prevent and stop
the slaughter. Those who cannot admit it have to make up u-turns, s-turns and w-turns and reasons
for them.
The author should not even bother to publish this analysis as it is very poor. There was not
much of the u-turn in Russian policy. From the day one the message was : Russia does not plan
invasion of Eastern Ukraine. The President did not even needed this mandate from "Duma" that
he later revoked for publicity reasons only.
What happened in Odessa did not "further mobilised Ukrainians against ...Russian efforts to
destabilise ...". The sheer unthinkable brutality of "Right-Sector" simply extinguished what
little appetite for protest there was in Odessa. The population was bluntly beaten down into
submission.
I also did not notice " the word "junta" has disappeared from Russian state media's descriptions
of the government of Ukraine" Not at all.
Nadiya Savchenko, female officer of Ukrainian army's Aydar unit who was captured in Luhansk
Oblast on June 17, was transferred to prison in Voronezh, a Russian city not far from the border
with Ukraine, reported television news program TSN.
Savchenko is being suspected in the murder of Russian journalists while participating in
Ukraine's antiterrorist operation. Trial is reportedly scheduled for July 9.
"Openly kidnapping Ukrainian citizens on the territory of our state, Russian authorities
not only violate all possible norms of international law, but also basic norms of ethics and
morality. Such actions will not be left without an adequate respond from Ukraine and international
community," wrote the Ukraine Foreign Ministry.
What's farcical is that this statement comes just 1 day after Russia revealed that the son
of a Russian lawmaker was kidnapped in the Maldives by US Agents, and transferred to Guam for
trial, supposedly on hacking charges.
The US maintains its right to kidnap suspects anywhere in the world. In spite of this, we'll
no doubt see the charade of the US aligning itself behind Ukraine on this, and joining in punishing
Russia for trying a suspected war criminal.
Those guys from Brookings Institution are really funny. Just replace Iraq with Ukraine, Sunnies
with South East Orthodox confederates. Shiite with Western Ukrainian Uniates and Baghdad with
Kiev. It would really funny to read. Even title "The Right Way to Partition Ukraine (If
Necessary)" would strongly smell with political incorrectness.
Iraq faces an existential crisis: the Sunni-dominated group Islamic State of Iraq and Syria has
declared itself "the
Islamic State"; Kurds in the north are solidifying their autonomy; and the largely-Shiite
controlled government in Baghdad braces against further gains by its foes.
In 2007, Brookings
Senior Fellow Michael O'Hanlon
and SAIS (Johns Hopkins) Senior Fellow Edward Joseph wrote a paper, "The
Case for Soft Partition in Iraq," in which they laid out the rationale for an Iraq-led
approach to a viable soft-partition of Iraq in the wake of then-escalating intercommunal violence.
In a
new opinion piece, O'Hanlon and Joseph revisit their proposal in light of the
current situation, writing that "Though it would be difficult to accomplish, federalism could still
be a helpful element as Iraqis struggle through their current tragic mess."
The appeal of federalism could grow if Iraqi leaders in Baghdad cannot agree soon on a government
of national unity, ideally one without Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, who has proven so divisive.
Whether a "soft partition"-meaning the creation of a Sunni autonomous zone to complement the
existing Kurdish one-or "hard partition"-meaning the formal redrawing of regional lines-it would
seem a natural idea. Not only because of the recent violence, which has caused hundreds of thousands
of Iraqis to flee their homes, but also the arbitrariness with which state borders were drawn
by the European powers after World War One.
While Iraq's constitution allows for the possibility of a Sunni autonomous region that "may even
persuade moderate Sunni leaders at the national, provincial and tribal levels to support a new government
of national unity," O'Hanlon and Joseph say that "partition cannot be seen as an alternative to
cooperation by Iraqi political leaders across sectarian lines. In fact, to be stabilizing and consistent
with U.S. national security goals, restructuring Iraq via one of these means must be done collaboratively,
not by fiat by one group or because of developments on the battlefield."
Read their piece
here to get full details of their proposal.
During
a recent Brookings event on the Iraq crisis, O'Hanlon spoke to this question,
explaining that "Partition can mean a couple of different things."
What it can mean is a de facto relocation of some populations, and maybe some more autonomy
within Iraq for the Sunni population in the north and west, akin to the Kurdistan concept. It
could mean a redrawing of formal state boundaries. It could mean that the individual autonomous
zones each have their own military force as the Kurds essentially do. Or it could mean that
they're really governing themselves in terms of economics and policing, day to day operations
of government, but they still all contribute to a national security force.
And then there are additional questions, such as who is going to protect populations that are
relocating? And, will people be compensated for the loss of their property, the loss of their homes?
"There are all sorts of very hard, practical questions to make partition work," O'Hanlon said.
Citing a conversation related to the partition of Yugoslavia that he had with former Greek Prime
Minister Papandreou, O'Hanlon explained that partition can't come in the heat of conflict:
If people want to cooperate in making this happen, or they get to a point where there are new
political forces and new political priorities that people are focused on, then maybe it's not
quite as destabilizing. If you just do it right now in the heat of conflict it actually creates
as many problems as it solves, or at least it could.
Nonresident Senior Fellow John
McLaughlin, a former deputy director for intelligence at the Central Intelligence Agency,
also wrote about this issue. In "Are
We About to See Three New Nations Replace Iraq?," McLaughlin writes that "Iraq as we
know it is in danger. Which means it's time to start thinking about what the nation will look like
if it does disintegrate, and consider what policy challenges would then confront the world."
Though Iraq's three major ethnic groups-Sunnis, Shia and Kurds-live in generally distinct geographic
regions, there will be nothing neat or clean about a breakup. A split won't calm political waters
nor will it bring near-term stability. And for US policy? The already labyrinthine geopolitical
puzzle will become even more maddeningly complex.
Let's break it down into what would happen in each of Iraq's three ethnic enclaves.
Why US troops, of course, which is why US military bases are conveniently located up and down
the pipeline route. Coincidence?
Not on your life. Operation "Enduring Freedom" is a bigger hoax than the threadbare war on terror.
So let's not kid ourselves. The war had nothing to do with liberating women or bringing democracy
to the unwashed masses. It was all about power politics and geostrategic maneuvering; stealing resources,
trouncing potential rivals, and beefing up profits for the voracious oil giants. Who doesn't know
that already?
... ... ...
In Ukraine, the US is using a divide-and-conquer strategy to pit the EU against trading partner
Moscow. The State Department and CIA helped to topple Ukraine's elected President Viktor Yanukovych
and install a US stooge in Kiev who was ordered to cut off the flow of Russian gas to the EU and
lure Putin into a protracted guerilla war in Ukraine. The bigwigs in Washington figured that, with
some provocation, Putin would react the same way he did when Georgia invaded South Ossetia in 2006.
But, so far, Putin has resisted the temptation to get involved which is why new puppet president
Petro Poroshenko has gone all "Jackie Chan" and stepped up the provocations by pummeling east Ukraine
mercilessly. It's just a way of goading Putin into sending in the tanks.
But here's the odd part:
Washington doesn't have a back-up plan. It's obvious by the way Poroshenko keeps doing the same
thing over and over again expecting a different result. That demonstrates that there's no Plan B.
Either Poroshenko lures Putin across the border and into the conflict, or the neocon plan falls
apart, which it will if they can't demonize Putin as a "dangerous aggressor" who can't be trusted
as a business partner.
So all Putin has to do is sit-tight and he wins, mainly because the EU needs Moscow's gas. If
energy supplies are terminated or drastically reduced, prices will rise, the EU will slide back
into recession, and Washington will take the blame. So Washington has a very small window to draw
Putin into the fray, which is why we should expect another false flag incident on a much larger
scale than the fire in Odessa. Washington is going to have to do something really big and make it
look like it was Moscow's doing. Otherwise, their pivot plan is going to hit a brick wall. Here's
a tidbit readers might have missed in the Sofia News Agency's novinite site:
"Ukraine's Parliament adopted ... a bill under which up to 49% of the country's gas pipeline
network could be sold to foreign investors. This could pave the way for US or EU companies,
which have eyed Ukrainian gas transportation system over the last months.
"Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk was earlier quoted as saying that the bill would allow
Kiev to 'attract European and American partners to the exploitation and modernization of Ukraine's
gas transportation,' in a situation on Ukraine's energy market he described as 'super-critical."
Critics of the bill have repeatedly pointed the West has long been interest in Ukraine's pipelines,
with some seeing in the Ukrainian revolution a means to get access to the system. (Ukraine
allowed to sell up to 49% of gas pipeline system, novinite.com)
Boy you got to hand it to the Obama throng. They really know how to pick their coup-leaders, don't
they? These puppets have only been in office for a couple months and they're already giving away
the farm.
And, such a deal! US corporations will be able to buy up nearly half of a pipeline that
moves 60 percent of the gas that flows from Russia to Europe. That's what you call a tollbooth,
my friend; and US companies will be in just the right spot to gouge Moscow for every drop of natural
gas that transits those pipelines. And gouge they will too, you can bet on it.
Is that why the State Department cooked up this loony putsch, so their fatcat, freeloading friends
could rake in more dough?
This also explains why the Obama crowd is trying to torpedo Russia's other big pipeline project
called Southstream. Southstream is a good deal for Europe and Russia. On the one hand, it would
greatly enhance the EU's energy security, and on the other, it will provide needed revenues for
Russia so they can continue to modernize, upgrade their dilapidated infrastructure, and improve
standards of living. But "the proposed pipeline (which) would snake about 2,400 kilometers, or roughly
1,500 miles, from southern Russia via the Black Sea to Bulgaria, Serbia, Hungary and ultimately
Austria. (and) could handle about 60 billion cubic meters of natural gas a year, enough to allow
Russian exports to Europe to largely bypass Ukraine" (New York Times) The proposed pipeline further
undermines Washington's pivot strategy, so Obama, the State Department and powerful US senators
(Ron Johnson, John McCain, and Chris Murphy) are doing everything in their power to torpedo the
project.
"What gives Vladimir Putin his power and control is his oil and gas reserves and West and Eastern
Europe's dependence on them," Senator Johnson said in an interview. "We need to break up his stranglehold
on energy supplies. We need to bust up that monopoly." (New York Times)
What a bunch of baloney. Putin doesn't have a monopoly on gas. Russia only provides 30 percent
of the gas the EU uses every year. And Putin isn't blackmailing anyone either. Countries in the
EU can either buy Russian gas or not buy it. It's up to them. No one has a gun to their heads. And
Gazprom's prices are competitive too, sometimes well-below market rates which has been the case
for Ukraine for years, until crackpot politicians started sticking their thumb in Putin's eye at
every opportunity; until they decided that that they didn't have to pay their bills anymore because,
well, because Washington told them not to pay their bills. That's why.
Ukraine is in the mess it's in today for one reason, because they decided to follow Washington's
advice and shoot themselves in both feet. Their leaders thought that was a good idea. So now the
country is broken, penniless and riven by social unrest. Regrettably, there's no cure for stupidity.
The neocon geniuses apparently believe that if they sabotage Southstream and nail down 49 percent
ownership of Ukraine's pipeline infrastructure, then the vast majority of Russian gas will have
to flow through Ukrainian pipelines. They think that this will give them greater control over Moscow.
But there's a glitch to this plan which analyst Jeffrey Mankoff pointed out in an article titled
"Can Ukraine Use Its Gas Pipelines to Threaten Russia?". Here's what he said:
"The biggest problem with this approach is a cut in gas supplies creates real risks for the
European economy... In fact, Kyiv's efforts to siphon off Russian gas destined to Europe to
offset the impact of a Russian cutoff in January 2009 provide a window onto why manipulating
gas supplies is a risky strategy for Ukraine. Moscow responded to the siphoning by halting all
gas sales through Ukraine for a couple of weeks, leaving much of eastern and southern Europe
literally out in the cold. European leaders reacted angrily, blaming both Moscow and Kyiv for
the disruption and demanding that they sort out their problems. While the EU response would
likely be somewhat more sympathetic to Ukraine today, Kyiv's very vulnerability and need for
outside financial support makes incurring European anger by manipulating gas supplies very risky."
(Can
Ukraine Use Its Gas Pipelines to Threaten Russia, two paragraphs)
The funny thing about gas is that, when you stop paying the bills, they turn the heat off. Is
that hard to understand?
So, yes, the State Department crystal-gazers and their corporate-racketeer friends might think
they have Putin by the shorthairs by buying up Ukraine's pipelines, but the guy who owns the gas
(Gazprom) is still in the driver's seat. And he's going to do what's in the best interests of himself
and his shareholders. Someone should explain to John Kerry that that's just how capitalism works.
Washington's policy in Ukraine is such a mess, it really makes one wonder about the competence
of the people who come up with these wacko ideas. Did the brainiacs who concocted this plan really
think they'd be able to set up camp between two major trading partners, turn off the gas, reduce
a vital transit country into an Iraq-type basketcase, and start calling the shots for everyone in
the region?
It's crazy.
Europe and Russia are a perfect fit. Europe needs gas to heat its homes and run its machinery.
Russia has gas to sell and needs the money to strengthen its economy. It's a win-win situation.
What Europe and Russia don't need is the United States. In fact, the US is the problem. As long
as US meddling persists, there's going to be social unrest, division, and war. It's that simple.
So the goal should be to undermine Washington's ability to conduct these destabilizing operations
and force US policymakers to mind their own freaking business. That means there should be a concerted
effort to abandon the dollar, ditch US Treasuries, jettison the petrodollar system, and force the
US to become a responsible citizen that complies with International law.
It won't happen overnight, but it will happen, mainly because everyone is sick and tired of all
the troublemaking.
Looks like this is now a real civil war with the level of destruction and war crimes typical for
civil wars. Due to overwhelming superiority in manpower and hardware eventually Donetsk will be
surrounded by Kiev forces. Street fights in Donetsk with remnants of confederates who refuse to surrender
and decide to fight to the bitter end might lead to destruction of the substantial part of the infrastructure
of the city. And war party in Kiev dominates because coup of February 22 brought to power the
most nationalistic part of Ukrainian political spectrum and in this political atmosphere "negotiations
with the enemy" for Poroshenko are personally dangerous.
Translated from Russian by Gleb Bazov
(Note: Rough Translation; Subject to Change)
Video: Press-Conference of Alexander Borodai and Igor Stelkov, Donetsk, July 10, 2014
Igor Strelkov: Speaking briefly, the enemy is moving on to a systematic siege of Donetsk and
of the entire Donetsk-Makeevka urban agglomeration. Attempting to close the encirclement on all
sides.
To the north, the enemy is advancing in the direction of Lisichansk. Yesterday, our forces left
the city of Seversk in response to the direct danger of being encircled. The detachments of the
Militia have moved on to positions atop the strategic heights between Seversk and Lisichansk. Our
advance positions in this region are spread along the Popasnoye-Gorlovka-Dzerzhinsk line, terminating
in Donetsk.
This morning, obstinate fighting resumed in the Karlovka area. The enemy attempted to attack
using tank and infantry units. The attack was repelled. Two tanks were destroyed. The infantry attack
was repelled. Thereafter, and until present, an artillery battle between the two sides has been
continuing in the area. Reinforcements, which should repel the enemy's attack, have been sent to
the location. Unfortunately, we also have sustained losses there.
The front lines continue from Karlovka along the western outskirts, along the suburban settlements
of Donetsk. From there, along the southern outskirts of Donetsk, all the way to Ilovais'k. From
there, along the line to Shakhtars'k-Torez-Snezhnoye.
The major hostilities on the southern front have concentrated in the areas of the Saur Mogila
[strategic height] and the villages of Dmitrovka and Stepanovka, where uninterrupted positional
battles and exchanges of artillery strikes continue.
Today, at 14:00, our special purpose [spetsnaz] unit, supported with artillery, attacked the
enemy positions in the area of the [Donetsk] airport. Our units were not tasked with taking control
of the airport. Nevertheless, our side inflicted serious manpower losses on the enemy. There were
no losses on our part.
Overall, the situation remains tense. However, the Militia is prepared to defend Donetsk and
the entire Donetsk urban agglomeration firmly and steadfastly. We expect to be able to retain key
positions around the city and will not allow the enemy inside city or permit Donetsk to be encircled
from the East or the Northeast.
In this regard, we are absolutely certain that assistance will be furnished by the units of Alexander
Mozogovoi, who is formally a part of the LPR [Lugansk People's Republic] army, but has been acting
in operational subordination to our headquarters. Moreover, we [ourselves] have the necessary reserves
to parry the enemy's strikes. We were able to free up these reserves by withdrawing from Slavyansk,
Kramatorsk, Druzhkovka and Konstantinovka. Unfortunately, there was no other manner in which we
could have freed up these resources.
I am prepared to answer your question to the extent I am able and to the extent I am permitted
to do so by the demands of military secrecy.
Massive Evacuation of Refugees from Parts of Donetsk Expected
Alexander Borodai: I would like to add something here. So, in the circumstances in which we find
ourselves, we are forced to consider a partial evacuation of certain areas of Donetsk. We want to
make sure that both the Russian and the global public is ready for what is to come. A partial
evacuation will entail the exodus of several hundred thousand civilians from the city and its neighbouring
areas.
Unfortunately, this is the necessity that looms over us. There is nothing that we can do about
it. It now appears that we may be forced to proceed in this way. To preclude a humanitarian catastrophe,
or, at least, to attempt to avoid it. And to avoid the death of a large number of civilians. This
is the first point that I wanted to make. The second clarification concerns the various rumours
and disinformation that the enemy has been spreading more or less successfully.
With respect to various kinds of disagreements among the military units in Donetsk. With respect
to various kinds of "commercial schemes" that allegedly exist, and in which some of the DPR military
units are allegedly involved. These are lies and disinformation fabricated by the enemy.
There are no disagreements. Joint operations have now been implemented, and the council of commanders
will commence its activities in the nearest future. I expect that, in the nearest future, we will
have the benefit of organized and coordinated activity on the part of our military units present
on the territory of DPR.
For now, that is all, thank you. We are expecting your questions. You can ask questions of me,
as well as of our Minister of Defence. Simply introduce yourself and go ahead with your questions.
.... ... ...
Evacuation from Donetsk and Coordination with Lugansk People's Republic
... ... ...
Alexander Borodai: We will see where the people wish to evacuate. But I think that everyone will
want to evacuate to the Russian Federation.
Reporter: And has the Russian Federation promised to you that they will accept that many refugees?
Alexander Borodai: We will be discussing this matter with the Russian Federation. The problem
is not whether the Russian Federation is promising to accept that many refugees or not. The issue
is survival. The Russian Federation will not refuse to accept the refugees simply because it cannot
permit itself to do so. It cannot allow itself to refuse them.
Question: How will the evacuation be implemented? Will the people be forced to evacuate, or will
this be a voluntary evacuation?
Alexander Borodai: No, of course not. This will be a voluntary evacuation. It is simply that
the situation is such that we are forced to evacuate the people, and many of them would want to
do so.
Igor Strelkov: All right, briefly. At this time, we are forming a joint staff of the military
forces of the Donetsk and the Lugansk People's Republics. The location of the headquarters has already
been established. The formation process is nearing its culmination. In the nearest term, the unified
military command of Novorossiya will be ready. At this time, this is all that I can say with respect
to this issue.
If he is prepared closely and qualitatively to cooperate with us, then he will remain the mayor.
We know him to be a good administrator. If he continues to play politics, offer us negotiations,
offer to be the middle man in the negotiations process, which, frankly speaking, he has done on
many occasions – he has made these kinds of offers to me – then we are entirely uninterested in
this.
He is either a mayor, an administrator, or he is a politician. And we are not prepared to have
him act as a politician or as a middle-man in our "relations" with Kiev, in relation which do not
exist. We are prepared to employ him as a mayor.
If he does not want to remain in this role, then he will have to leave, and he will be replaced
with another person. To leave does not mean to stand against a wall and be executed. To leave means
to pack up things and quietly go either simply home or to any other place of his own choosing.
Reporter: Igor Ivanovich, could you add anything to the answer provided by Alexander Vladimirovich?
Igor Strelkov: It was an exhaustive response.
Reporter: And, continuing with this question, you mentioned that there might be some other person.
Do you know who this person could be?
Alexander Borodai: We are considering candidacies. Naturally, he must be an administrator, first
and foremost. But this means an administrator that himself must be loyal to the government of the
Donetsk People's Republic. I consider this to be absolutely correct.
Moreover, I repeat, there will now be attempts, all the time, to cause discord in our joint position
with the DPR Commander-in-Chief. These attempts, I will tell you straight, are bound to fail. Our
relationship is of a different calibre entirely. They will not work.
... ... ...
Russian Citizens at the Head of the Donetsk People's Republic
Reporter: I would like to ask the following question: the Donetsk People's Republic and the People's
Militia of Donbass positions itself as being comprised of people that come from the land of Donbass.
How did it come to be that before us are two citizens of the Russian Federation that command the
entire enterprise? How did it happen?
Alexander Borodai: (smiling) I'll tell you it's worse that that. There are two Muscovites sitting
before you.
... ... ...
Alexander Borodai: We see nothing wrong in this. Absolutely nothing. I would like to tell you
that both Igor and I have been volunteers for a very long time. The volunteer movement is very developed
in Russia.
The people of Donbass rose up by themselves. The fact that due to certain competencies, qualities
and abilities both of us ended up at the head of this movement – well, that's what happened. This
is normal and natural.
Moreover, please take into account the fact that the entire liberation movement of Donbass is
oriented toward the Russian Federation. Oriented, however you put it, be it spiritually or otherwise.
And expects Moscow's arrival here, in a good sense of the word. Expects, desires, simply prays for
it – prays for the time of this arrival. And, simply put, any people from Moscow are welcomed here.
And, moreover, I would like to make a further announcement – fortunately, the person has arrived
– with respect to people from Moscow, there are more and more of these people here. For instance,
at the next Supreme Council session, we anticipate putting forward the candidacy of a new Vice-Premier
of the Donetsk People's Republic.
I would like you all to welcome Vladimir Yuryevich Antjufeev. Vladimir Yuryevich, I hope you
can say a couple of word to us.
... ... ...
Vladimir Antjufeev: Ladies and gentlemen, briefly about myself. My name is Vladimir Yuryevich,
born in 1951. I am Russian and a citizen of the Russian Federation.
My primary education is in law. As well, I am a graduate of the Academy of Government Administration
of the President of the Russian Federation, in the National Security Department. I hold a PhD in
Political Science and teach as a professor at the Academy of Military Science.
My entire adult life and service I have devoted to fighting national-fascism in Latvia, in Moldova,
and, now, in Ukraine (as well as in Georgia). I have been granted state awards by the Soviet Union,
Transnistria, Russia, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia. I say this not to boast, but simply to identify
the functional points of my competency and the basis of my influence.
I was invited by the leadership of the Donetsk People's Republic to facilitate the creation of
law-enforcement structures, because the national-fascists of Ukraine, which have unleashed, under
the leadership of the Kiev government, a war against the people of the South-East, have, in perpetrating
these hostilities, substantially destabilized and undermined the functionality of these structures.
The task I see before me consists of reconstructing the functionality of these structures, relying
primarily on the local law-enforcement cadre, to ensure that each and every citizen of the Donetsk
People's Republic is, first and foremost, clearly confident that both his personal and his property
rights are protected.
I will conduct my activities in strict compliance with the law and the existing legislation and
from the standpoint of the highest principles of fairness and a high civic duty. My military rank
is Lieutenant-General. Please ask your questions.
Reporter: What will you be curating in the new government? What will be the scope of your responsibilities?
Vladimir Antjufeev: National security, the Ministry of Interior, the courts and the justice system,
and so on.
Reporter: Thank you.
Vladimir Antjufeev: Well, as for the Prosecutor's Office – we will be cooperating with the Prosecutor's
Office.
Reporter: So, in other words, the entire security apparatus, correct?
Vladimir Antjufeev: No, hold on, not exactly. The military component is excluded here – this
is the prerogative of the leadership of the Republic. We will certainly build our relation on the
basis of cooperation, exchange of information and the planning of joint operations in ensuring state
security and the defence of the Donetsk People's Republic.
... ... ...
The Situation Surrounding Battalion Vostok and Commander Khodokovskiy
Reporter: If I may ask a question: who is currently in command of Battalion Vostok? What powers
will Khodokovskiy continue to retain? Will he continue as the head of Battalion Vostok?
Igor Strelkov: As it is well known, Battalion Vostok is exists as a structure within the Ministry
of State Security. However, the units of Battalion Vostok that serve on the frontlines are in operational
subordination to the staff of the Militia. Specifically, I repeat, in operational subordination.
In the future, they will continue as part of the Ministry of State Security.
Alexander Borodai: What does this say to you? Alexander Khodokovskiy is at this time the Minister
of National Security of the Donetsk People's Republic. Battalion Vostok is a military unit subordinated
to him. However, because, at this time, this military unit is engaged in frontline duties, it cannot
be involved in the operations of the Ministry of National Security. They simply have not had the
opportunity to be involved.
I am hoping that now Vladimir Yuryevich will seriously help us in making the National Security
units work. And so, I apologize, I moved off the topic. And so, because Vostok is engaged primarily
in frontline duties, accordingly, it has been operationally subordinated to the DPR Commander-in-Chief,
Igor Ivanovich Strelkov.
Reporter: Ok, it's just that Gubarev said yesterday that this is how it is. About the fact that
Vostok …
Alexander Borodai: You know … please tell me, what is Pavel Gubarev's official capacity here?
Can you explain this to me? Well, you see, and I can't either. You listen to commentary by various
unofficial leaders, some of whom are respected, while others – less so. Well, his statement is not
official, and now you are being provided with an official statement by the government. And this
official position is what it is.
Could There Be a Retreat from Donetsk?
Reporter: May I ask another question? If, God forbid, the situation in Donetsk becomes the same
as it was in Slavyansk, has a plan been prepared for the Militia to retreat, as it was done in Slavyansk?
Alexander Borodai: An enigmatic question. And where are you from, if I may ask? No, there is
no such plan. We will continue to defend the territory of the Donetsk People's Republic. And not
only will we defend it – we will cleanse it from occupation, cleanse it from the occupation troops,
which, indeed, currently hold a very substantial part of our territory. However, I am certain that
this is an entirely temporary phenomenon.
Encouragement for Mariupol
Reporter: If I may ask another question in this regard. Here we have representatives from Mariupol.
And, the thing is, I would like to hear some words of encouragement for our city.
Alexander Borodai: We are aware that the situation there is difficult. What can I say? Hold strong.
I believe that we will come to your aid. We will seek to do so in the nearest future.
Statement Made by Kurginiyan
... ... ...
Igor Strelkov: I heard about Messr. Kurginyan's statement and I was told, roughly, what he said.
However, frankly speaking, the statement itself did not interest me in terms of its contents. I
did not even bother to read it.
The thing is, in my day-to-day actions I am guided, first of all, by military expediency, and,
second, by my conscience. The military expediency in withdrawing the garrison from Slavyansk was
obvious then, and it has become even more obvious now. My conscience is absolutely clear.
So, Messr. Kurginyan can claim what he wants. And, moreover, it is a pity that a person whose
analytical articles previously aroused my interest and respect came out with a statement that is
fairly improper. However, in general, his words did not rattle me, which is exactly what I told
him in our evening telephone conversation when I invited him, in a fairly correct manner, simply
to come in for a conversation. In fact, my tone was more than just polite.
Well, it looks like he became afraid of some sort of actions on my part and did not come. However,
I will take this opportunity to tell him that I was in no way hurt by his statement, and that I
am even ready to discuss this further with him in calm and planned surroundings.
Alexander Borodai: Allow me also to add something to the issue of Messr. Kurginyan's statement.
As for me, I, frankly speaking, had a very strong inclination, a very strong desire to arrest Messr.
Kurginyan, and the sole obstacle to his arrest was the opinion of Messr. Strelkov.
This is because I consider his statement not only to be rude to the core and also impermissible
in its content, but also an element of the enemy, of Ukrainian propaganda. And I would not have
held Messr. Kurginyan for long – I would have simply sent him back where, judging by the essence
of his statement, he came from. [In other words,] to the Ukrainian positions. Because the impression
he made was that he works entirely for the benefit of the Ukrainian propaganda machine. In essence,
directly fulfilling its orders.
Naturally, various rumours of all kinds arose that Messr. Kurginyan came here not just because
but at the bidding of someone from Kremlin or from one of Kremlin's towers. I can that, being a
professional in my field, and since I was in Moscow while Messr. Kurginyan made his statement, I
made the necessary inquiries.
As it turns out, Messr. Kurginyan was not representing any Kremlin structure while he was here.
This is politely speaking. Neither any pro-Kremlin, nor even a near-Kremlin structure. He came here
at someone else's bidding. And I think that the interests that Messr. Kurginyan was serving here
are to be found far to the west of the city of Moscow.
Further Clarification of the Situation with Battalion Vostok and Khodokovskiy
Reporter: Can you please clarify the situation with Battalion Vostok? For example, Pavel Gubarev
stated yesterday that [Khodokovskiy] is refusing to subordinate to the DPR leadership, that he has
moved to Makeevka, and promised that, in the nearest future, certain facts will be made public.
What is the situation at this time?
Alexander Borodai: (smirking) Pavel Gubarev is a unique source of information, I tell you. Keep
listening. You will get a lot of various information. I had a conversation with Alexander Khodokovskiy
yesterday. There are no problems of this kind at this time.
Igor Strelkov: Alexander Vladimirovich, you should not forget that Pavel Gubarev has been appointed
the head of the Mobilization Department.
Alexander Borodai: Oh, yes, I forgot.
Igor Strelkov: So, please do not disavow him entirely here.
Alexander Borodai: I will not, entirely. I simply want to say that political statements are not
part of his responsibilities.
Igor Strelkov: Ladies and gentlemen, there will be, of course, as in any guerrilla movement when
it is transformed into a regular army, many disagreements, collisions of interest, clashes of ambitions,
and other issues not permitted by military regulations. Nevertheless, it is important not to assign
critical importance to any such skirmishes, disconnects, and lack of understanding.
Messr. Khodokovskiy visited me twice in Slavyansk in the April of this year. And we found then,
between the two of us, sufficient commonality of interests and agreed to certain cooperation. I
am certain that, when we meet face to face, we will again find a common language and will work together,
side by side.
With respect to everything else, I can say that the units of Battalion Vostok are, at this time,
working in direct cooperation with the Militia and performing battlefield assignments and have been
fulfilling them for some time now. As for coordination between our headquarters, it has existed
since the first day of our arrival in Slavyansk. That is all.
The Looming Humanitarian Catastrophe
Reporter: Do you know how many people have left the city of Donetsk? Because I heard today from
the representatives of the city that over a hundred thousand resident have already left the city.
Alexander Borodai: To whom is your question addressed? To me? Ok. At of this time, over seventy
thousand resident have left Donetsk. This is indeed the truth. Not a hundred thousand, but over
seventy thousand. It is natural that this process will continue.
The worse the situation gets, the more dangerous it becomes for the lives [of the residents],
the more difficult it gets from the social standpoint, naturally, the more residents will leave.
I will remind that I have already said at many press-conferences that the territory of the Donetsk
People's Republic, the entire territory of Donbass, is not only facing the threat of a humanitarian
catastrophe, but that this catastrophe is already upon us.
It is simply that, as any phenomenon of this kind, it does not appear overnight in its full vigour,
but the situation develops progressively. And so, this situation has been developing gradually,
and it is becoming worse and worse.
It is understood that, in Slavyansk, a situation like that was created a long time ago, and that
it was very bad there. Well, we are not here to talk about it. It is understood that it will become
worse here the more this goes on, and that the residents will leave the city, as well as others
on the territory of DPR – this is natural. We are attempting to help them in this regard.
... ... ...
The Breakout from Slavyansk
Reporter: Can you tell us what losses the Militia suffered in its retreat from Slavyansk, what
were the human casualties, and what forces remain, how many armoured vehicles and other armaments?
Igor Strelkov: Let me put it this way – over 90% of the personnel was able to withdraw from Slavyansk
and successfully made it to Donetsk. Most of our losses were in terms of unreliable militiamen from
the Kramatorsk garrison, rather than the casualties suffered during the retreat from Slavyansk.
I repeat that over 90% of the Slavyansk garrison made it here. I am not able to give you specific
numbers owing to the fact that it is a military secret. Losses were sustained at the very end of
the breakout due to incompetence on the part of one of the commanders.
Reporter: How much weaponry and ammunition was left in Slavyansk?
Igor Strelkov: We retained a certain quantity of ammunition, and several armoured vehicles were
lost at the very end of the breakout from Slavyansk.
Does anyone know if there's any mention of how many wounded, maimed and KIA the forces loyal
to Poro have suffered?
The Kyivpost.com keeps a convenient running tally of losses of the Army, SBU, and Border Guards,
as well as National Guard troops seconded to the military. The latest installment is here, and it
is now up to 223 according to them.
I have been tallying them out of personal interest, the provinces of origins of the dead, and
also the numbers of widows and orphans created, as this growing scar from this Brother War will
affect Ukrainian society down the road in ways we are unable to see now.
Unfortunately for the interests of statistics, and following the lead of the Ukrainian State
structure in this regard, this tally ignores the tremendous losses of the unofficial National Guard
troops of Maidan activists and Right Sector goons and the private militia battalions of Liashko
and Kolomoisky. Thus losses of Battalions Donbass, Azov, Idar, Dnipr, Kyiv, etc. are simply not
counted and to this will now be added the Penal Battalions of the unwilling from Sloviansk and Kramatorsk.
This also corresponds to information that can be read both on pro-Novorossiya sites and pro-EuroMaidan
sites regarding National Guard troops and losses being kept "off the books", National Guard troops
not being paid, etc. Everyone can make of this what they will. In my mind it certainly would be
a piece of evidence towards all the worst suspicions voiced of unmarked mass graves, organ harvesting,
and the planned execution via means of war of elements on both sides dangerous to the state structure
of Ukraine and its ruling oligarchy.
Of great interest to students of war is that in these official tallies, very few are from battles
and most are from the downing of military aircraft and a handful massacres. Thus one might say that
the official death toll fails to correspond to the reality of the war we can all see of numerous
daily battles and enormous ammounts of ammunition and shells expended. To believe the official statistics
as being complete is to believe the NAF Army mostly fires into the air and the ground.
11 July, 2014 10:32
Tom Garrett said...
The terrible problem here is that the resistance, because it began in the cities and because
it evidently could not develop and send out guerrilla cadres to harass enemy communications and
(hopefully) expand, is stuck with a set piece war against an enemy with vastly greater resources.
Add to this its staggering responsibility hundreds of thousands of of vulnerable civilians.
If
the defenders of Donetsk can launch a series of short, sharp attacks that hurt the enemy and rebuild
their own confidence they have a chance to hold the city. Maybe there will be another "Miracle of
the Donetsk". Real and active Russian support could change everything. Without it the situation
is grave indeed.
In other sources, I saw that Banderite occupiers in Slav'ansk
have set up "urns" in public places where people can sneak in the middle of the night and deposit
written denunciations of their neighbours and relatives as being sympathetic to separatists.
People with some knowledge of history have pointed out that even back in the day, when Hitler's
army occupied Slav'ansk, such things were not done. The Nazis had too much class to resort to
such tactics.
Even your worst Nazi had a certain moral core, and there were certain things they simply
would not do.
Hopefully they will fill up with joke tips – and they will have to read them all – like "Poroshenko
is a separatist" and "Parubiy is getting it on with his Mum". Or riddles like "How come we drive
on a parkway and park in a driveway?" or "When they ship styrofoam, what do they pack it in?".
But in Ukrainian, of course, and I have no sense of what's funny in Ukrainian. Maybe "What's
the difference between Proshenko and a carp? One is a scum-sucking bottom-feeder. The other
one is a fish".
Those Box-o'-Betrayals dumps are a bad idea, because what's to stop partisans
from getting up at 4:00 AM and emptying them so they can find out who are the traitors in their
midst?
SLOVYANSK, Ukraine - Late one afternoon last month, as separatist militia fighters and Ukrainian
forces exchanged fire, a small-time thief by the name of Aleksei B. Pichko left his home on the
southern edge of Slovyansk and headed for an abandoned residence at 17 Sadovaya Street. He had been
drinking, and wanted to "see what could be stolen from there," according to documents recovered
at the rebel headquarters after their retreat over the weekend.
Mr. Pichko, 30, never returned. An order signed and stamped by the rebels' powerful commander,
Igor Strelkov, detailed Mr. Pichko's fate: death by firing squad for pilfering a pair of pants and
two shirts.
"They told me they took him to the S.B.U.," said his mother, Maria Pichko, referring to the headquarters
in this former separatist stronghold. "I don't know anything more."
The death sentence makes reference to a Stalin-era Soviet law, and in it Mr. Strelkov warns ominously
that crimes "committed in the zone of military activity will continue to be punished ruthlessly
and decisively."
Mr. Strelkov, a native Muscovite whose real name is Igor Girkin, is a figure as mysterious as
he is fearsome. On Thursday, he made his first public appearance after months of fighting, attending
a news conference in the provincial capital of Donetsk alongside Alexander Borodai, another Russian
citizen leading the uprising here.
Having lost Slovyansk, Mr. Strelkov has moved to assert his authority over the fractious separatist
militias that are gathering in Donetsk and Luhansk, the other major city in the rebellious east,
rallying them for an urban war that would be both bloody and destructive - not to speak of suicidal,
in the eyes of many analysts.
"The enemy is putting Donetsk under siege," Mr. Strelkov said, unsmiling, with his hands folded.
"The situation overall is tense, but the militia are ready to defend Donetsk. They are counting
on holding their positions on the edges of the city and on preventing the enemy from coming inside
the city."
An ultranationalist and reactionary, Mr. Strelkov fits an increasingly familiar profile in Russia,
one that has emerged strongly with the re-election of President Vladimir V. Putin. Messianic and
militaristic, such figures combine a deep belief in Russia's historic destiny with a contempt for
the "decadent" West, while yearning for the re-establishment of a czarist empire.
"Strelkov is almost a caricature of the Putin era," said Mark Galeotti, an expert on the Russian
security services at New York University.
A former intelligence agent, Mr. Strelkov fought in the post-Soviet conflicts in Transnistria,
Serbia and Chechnya. Yet his ideological rigidity precedes any connections he has to Russia's security
services, stretching back at least to his days at the Moscow State Institute for History and Archives.
There, Mr. Strelkov obsessed over military history and joined a small but vocal group of students
who advocated a return to monarchism.
"This is a person who lives in the beginning of the 20th century," said Aleksei Makarkin,
who studied with Mr. Strelkov in college. "He was like this even back then."
Were it not for the Ukraine crisis, he might have followed his passions mostly in obscurity.
But he joined in the Russian takeover of Crimea and after that moved on to eastern Ukraine - with
or without authorization from Moscow - where he consolidated control over the rebel military wing
by imposing a system of dark and ruthless justice.
Kiev and its Western allies have said he is an active Russian agent, but they have offered no
proof, and Mr. Strelkov has often seemed to follow his own counsel, rather than Moscow's dictates.
"When he moved into eastern Ukraine, I suspect, it was him taking his own initiative," Mr. Galeotti
said. "We saw him doing things that didn't fit Russia's direct game plan," such as holding hostage
for weeks military observers from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe.
With the Kremlin now talking about peace and ratcheting down the volume on its anti-Kiev propaganda,
Mr. Strelkov may be facing a bleak future. He has been openly critical of Moscow for failing to
provide more aid to the rebels, and has been criticized for it lately by Russian officials. But
many analysts fear that Mr. Strelkov could go rogue, making it difficult even for the Kremlin to
bring the warring parties in eastern Ukraine to the negotiating table.
From the documents left behind in his headquarters, it is obvious that he ran his own iron-fisted
show in Slovyansk. In the fetid basement of his headquarters in the local security services building,
which served as a dungeon for some of his dozens of hostages, a ceramic bowl full of prison food
remained, uneaten and curdled. Socks still hung to dry from wooden sticks wedged into the wall.
A plastic bottle collected drippings from the ceiling - water the detainees likely used to wash
themselves with a single shared bar of soap.
Alongside Mr. Pichko's file were documents detailing two other trials by "military-field tribunal,"
which include handwritten witness statements addressed to Mr. Strelkov. In one case, a man accused
of shining a flashlight to inform Ukrainian troops of rebel positions was acquitted. In another,
however, Mr. Strelkov ordered the execution of two militiamen who allegedly kidnapped a local man
and looted his home.
In all three, Mr. Strelkov emerges as a man willing to take extreme measures.
"They shot him for two shirts," Ms. Pichko said on the dirt road outside her home, tears welling.
"It's not right."
As Mr. Strelkov spoke on Thursday, rebel forces were engaged in an assault at the Donetsk airport,
where black smoke rose into the evening. A Ukrainian military spokesman said that the attack was
repelled, but reported the deaths of three soldiers elsewhere in the east - one killed in an ambush
outside Luhansk and two by a land mine in a village near Donetsk. And along the border with Russia,
Ukrainian forces seized control of a crossing at Chervonopartyzansk, according to the presidential
administration.
Rebel leaders announced that they would be evacuating "tens of thousands" of people from certain
neighborhoods of Donetsk in the coming days.
Continue reading the main story Continue reading the main story
Continue reading the main story
Mr. Borodai declined to say which neighborhoods, but said the evacuations would be voluntary,
and were necessary to prevent a "humanitarian catastrophe."
At the news conference, Mr. Strelkov appeared resolute, despite the Ukrainian military's new
momentum and the apparent change of strategy in the Kremlin. He revealed that he had indeed served
in the Russian F.S.B., the successor to the K.G.B., up until March 31, 2013, but that he had left
the service. Western governments say that he is controlled by Russia's military intelligence service,
the G.R.U.
Either way, there can be little doubt that he relishes the battlefield, and that he will be highly
reluctant to give it up. He wrote about his attachment to war in his memoirs of the fighting in
Bosnia, published in 1999.
"After the first euphoria - we're alive! - came the sensation familiar to most professional fighters:
the desire to risk it again, to live a 'full' life," he wrote. "It's the so-called 'gunpowder poisoning
syndrome.' "
DONETSK, Ukraine - One rebel group, Oplot, comes from the Ukrainian city of Kharkiv. Another,
the Russian Orthodox Army, is composed of Russians and Ukrainians. A third, named for a river, Kalmius,
is made up mainly of coal miners.
This motley mix forms just part of the fighting force of Ukraine's eastern uprising. It is more
patchwork than united front: Some groups get along with others. Some do not. And their leaders seem
to change with the weather.
... ... ...
The calculus may have changed recently with the appearance in Donetsk of Igor Girkin, a Russian
citizen and rebel leader who goes by the name Strelkov, or shooter. He surfaced over the weekend
along with hundreds of rebels who abandoned their positions after being overpowered by the Ukrainian
military in weeks of fighting in the city of Slovyansk.
... ... ...
But in recent weeks, fighters have complained that Moscow abandoned them, a sentiment that burst
into public view this week when a political strategist closely allied with the Kremlin was shouted
at by fighters at a news conference here.
The deputy prime minister of the Donetsk People's Republic, Andrei Purgin, said in an interview
on Wednesday that Mr. Strelkov was trying to stitch the patchwork of militias into one professional
army, to which soldiers would swear an oath. But the task is difficult, he said, as some fighters
want to stick close to home.
"It is our hope that it will be one collective organ," Mr. Purgin said, sitting on a yellow couch
in the government administration building in Donetsk that the rebels control.
Steven Pifer is an apologist of Neoconservatism and trying to defend it he spill the beans
The key idea of this apologetics is simple: "Neoconservatism and color revolutions make
sense and serve the interest of the american people". This is a questionable thesis unless by "American
people" we understood the top 1%, or even the top 0.1%.
I also think Steven Pifer should have more sympathy to confederates, as he positions himself as
right wing hawk in this discussion ;-). After all Donetsk rebels are nothing but a confederates
fighting like their American counterparts for more autonomy from the central government in Kiev. Presenting
them all as pro-Russian forces is wrong (most of them want Donbass to stay in Ukraine, but with far
great level of autonomy then Kiev is ready to offer).
Also as a former United States Ambassador to Ukraine (1998-2000) he should know far better the danger
of Ukrainian Ultranationalists. It was Bush I who told Ukranians (Chicken
Kiev speech)
"Americans will not support those who seek independence in order to replace a far-off tyranny
with a local despotism. They will not aid those who promote a suicidal nationalism based upon ethnic
hatred."
Here the USA with its color revolution (aka EutoMaidan) really put this powerful and destructive
jinni out of the bottle, and in no way they can put him back. And the last but not least -- it is very
humiliating for him to repeat what
Robert Kagan would
say on the subject... After all Robert Kogan is just an overweight neocon -- paid propagandist of military
industrial complex, so to speak. But it looks like
Brookings Foundation still think that "Neoconservatism still matters".
Stephen F. Cohen published an article in The Nation on July 1 entitled "The
Silence of American Hawks about Kyiv's Atrocities." It makes for an interesting read, though
it places virtually all the blame for the distressing crisis in Ukraine on the Ukrainian government
and Washington. That situation, however, cannot be painted in the black and white strokes used by
Dr. Cohen; there are many shades of gray. I try to see the grays, though I should note at the outset
that Dr. Cohen would likely lump me with the hawks. Much of his article, however, paints a black
and white picture that omits crucial context and detail. Some examples.
Dr. Cohen's article equates the actions of the armed separatists in the eastern Ukrainian regions
of Donetsk and Luhansk with the protests on the Maidan Square in Kyiv. The Maidan demonstrations
were overwhelmingly peaceful until the police assaults on February 18. To be sure, buildings around
the Maidan were seized (and one rented)-mainly to provide shelter given the bitter winter temperatures.
And a small group of protestors (which included ultranationalists) started clashes with police in
mid-January, but their number never amounted to a small fraction of the peaceful demonstrations
a couple of blocks away.
What took place in Donetsk and Luhansk was different. There were no peaceful demonstrations on
the scale of the Maidan. Instead, armed separatists seized local administration and police buildings.
In some cases, they were led by "little green men"-the term Ukrainians applied to the soldiers in
Russian-style combat fatigues but no identifying insignia who seized Crimea (later acknowledged
by Vladimir Putin to have been Russian troops). Equating such activities in black and white terms
with the Maidan is a very long stretch.
I agree with Dr. Cohen about the horrific nature of what transpired in Odessa on May 2, when
dozens perished in a trade union building fire, though I would not be so quick to draw analogies
to Nazi exterminations. There should be a full investigation, and the Ukrainian government would
be wise to invite forensic experts from countries such as Finland to participate.
But Dr. Cohen's description of the Odessa tragedy omits relevant information. First, by most
accounts, the clashes began when a pro-Russian group attacked a peaceful pro-unity parade. Second,
many reports say that some in the pro-Russian group used firearms. Third, while there is no doubt
that pro-Ukraine demonstrators threw Molotov cocktails into the building, there is also evidence
of people on and in the building with their own Molotov cocktails. Finally, once the fire broke
out, there is footage of some from the pro-Ukraine group helping people escape the burning building.
None of this justifies the inexcusable attack on the building, but it paints a grayer picture than
Dr. Cohen's account.
Dr. Cohen's narrative of the government's anti-terrorist operation implies that Kyiv started
the conflict in the east. In fact, beginning on April 6, armed pro-Russian separatists seized numerous
buildings before Ukrainian military and security forces began their operations on April 12. He suggests
indiscriminate attacks on civilian population centers when most Ukrainian military operations appear
aimed at a foe who is well-armed, including with tanks and sophisticated surface-to-air missiles
(as witnessed by the shoot-downs of Ukrainian military aircraft, including a transport plane with
49 aboard).
The role of the Right Sector organization is of concern, and Ukraine's government should act
to disarm it. Some in the West, however, believe that Svoboda has made an effort to move away from
its uglier roots. Dr. Cohen is right about their relatively large representation in the cabinet.
But his account does not mention a major reason for that: the Party of Regions and the UDAR party,
the first and third largest factions in the Ukrainian parliament, chose not to take positions when
the new cabinet formed in February.
Dr. Cohen's narrative too easily dismisses what the May 25 presidential election says about support
among the Ukrainian people for right-wing ultra-nationalists. The leaders of Right Sector and Svoboda
together garnered less than two percent of the vote. Even that overstates their support: armed separatists
prevented voting in much of Donetsk and Luhansk, where 14 percent of the Ukrainian electorate resides,
few of whom would have favored the Right Sector or Svoboda leaders. Dr. Cohen suggests that "small,
determined movements can seize the moment" to imply the ultra-nationalists command authority beyond
their poll numbers. Perhaps. But could the same concern not be raised about the armed separatists
in Donetsk and Luhansk, where polls have shown that most people wish to remain a part of Ukraine?
Dr. Cohen writes that the anti-terrorist operation can only be halted in Washington and Kyiv.
By most accounts, Ukrainian forces significantly ratcheted down operations during the ten-day ceasefire
that ended on June 30. It is not clear the separatists did. Surely they have some voice in whether
a ceasefire can be made to hold?
Dr. Cohen lets Russia entirely off the hook, noting that, after the annexation of Crimea, Putin
showed "remarkable restraint." Even setting aside the seizure of Crimea-the most blatant land-grab
in Europe since the end of World War II-it is difficult to describe Russian actions since then as
restraint. Moscow over the past three months has sought to destabilize Ukraine. Among other things,
it blocked Ukrainian exports to Russia; dramatically raised the price of gas it sold to Ukraine
(to levels far above what Germany and Austria pay, despite their higher transit costs); kept tens
of thousands of troops mobilized on Ukraine's eastern border; and allowed fighters, supplies and
equipment, including tanks, to cross from Russia into Ukraine. Restraint?
Dr. Cohen expresses concern that inflamed Russian elite and public opinion may force Mr. Putin
to take stronger actions, including military intervention. That is indeed a concern, but his article
could and should have noted why Russian opinion is inflamed: the one-sided Soviet-style propaganda
campaign carried out by Mr. Putin's own state media.
The situation in Ukraine is complex and gray shaded. There is plenty of blame to go around. But
Dr. Cohen's article fails to capture that and instead paints a misleading black and white picture
that masks the more nuanced reality.
Thank you, Mr. Pifer, for your factual, reasoned, and restrained response to Stephen Cohen's
inflammatory article.
I read Cohen's diatribe on the day of its publication (he revised it
yesterday, but did not shift it materially in the direction of reality). It was so biased, inaccurate,
and laden with interpretations that are (at the least) highly debatable, I didn't choose to
take the time to even offer a comment.
I have seen Mr. Cohen express great irritation at accusations that he is an apologist for
Putin. Nonetheless, his "facts," interpretations, and judgments match the consensus of Putin
apologists with precision.
Mr. Pifer refers to one of the article's more bizarre claims: faced with empirical evidence
that Ukraine decisively rejects ultra-nationalist bigotry -- the miniscule vote received by
far-right parties in Ukraine's recent presidential election -- Cohen breezily dismisses this
solid fact, maintaining that the bogey men can "seize the moment" in traumatic times. Were not
betrayal by then-president Yanukovich, invasion by Russia leading to theft of a large piece
of Ukraine's territory (and nearly all of Ukraine's petroleum reserves) and the violent infiltration
and occupation of numerous cities and towns sufficient trauma for such seizure "of the moment,"
were it ever to occur?
Cohen accuses Ukraine's lawfully elected government of "atrocities" "that are rising to the
level of war crimes". This is very strong language indeed -- and supported in his article principally
by the statement that these deeds have been "captured on video". I still don't know what Cohen
means by these terms. Is he suggesting that Ukraine is deliberately targeting innocents for
slaughter, as in Nazi Germany? Has he determined that Ukraine's government had better options
for the defense of national and territorial integrity, that would have meant less civilian casualties?
Or, for Mr. Cohen, are ALL military actions that carry some risk of death or injury to non-combatants
"atrocities" and "war crimes?" If his article explained this, I missed that part.
When separatist traitors were trying to tear the USA in two, and cowardly lodged themselves
in towns, the US Army sometimes fired its artillery against those towns, and civilians suffered.
Was that a war crime?
When the Russian Federation -- a state for which Mr. Cohen seems to have the most exquisite
sympathies -- faced an armed separatist movement (a rebellion, I suggest, that was FAR less
dangerous to Russia than present events are to Ukraine, and a rebellion made without the participation
of a hostile state, or occupation of Russia's territory by a baleful foreign enemy), civilian
deaths were at least 35,000 (by the most conservative estimates) and perhaps as great as 200,000.
Mr. Putin's Russia never made an effort to count the innocent dead.
Based on current information, deaths of non-combatants in eastern Ukraine appear to be in
the dozens -- probably less than 50. Is it not worth considering, that perhaps Ukraine's government
has taken pains to minimize civilian casualties while taking necessary steps in the country's
defense?
For a more recent basis of comparison, Putin's Russia made war on Georgia for just a few
days, including a prolonged assault against Gori that had no apparent military purpose (Putin
explained that it was "punishment.") More than 100 Georgian civilians died, and more than 500
were wounded.
I wonder, does Mr. Cohen worry that by grotesquely aping Kremlin propaganda, and minimizing
Russia's responsibility for bloodshed in Ukraine, he is perhaps aiding and abetting atrocities
and war crimes?
SUNchess -> George Antrobus
I was in South Ossetia and saw Georgian troops fought against the civilian population. I saw
the destroyed houses and talking to people. And I think that the Russian had the right to do
what they did.
Long arms america seen in Ukraine too.
Valentin Gorenko
I disagree with Steven Pifer, the situation in Ukraine cannot not be painted in gray, black
is the correct color for describing it.
More than five hundred people were arrested in my home town Kharkiv, and about forty
of them vanished, which means they were most likely killed by the Kyivv's loyalist death squads.
My people are getting killed daily in Donbass as well. Stephen Cohen is correct in his article
about Kyivv's atrocities which are ignored in the US and EU.
slava raczynska -> Valentin Gorenko
That is most interesting. My family is also from Kharkiv and Donbass and most of the people
that have gone "Missing" were the pro-Ukrainians. You seem to forget all the power in the east
and Kyiv was held by pro-Russians (which is why Maidan started in the first place). If there
are any complaints about the state of the economy or politics, it should be addressed to all
the oligarchs who have fled to Moscow in Feb. They caused the problems with their blatant thievery.
The Ukrainians deserve to decide their own fate without Kremlin interference. If a small
minority want to be fascists (not unlike Putin and his buddies), its still better than being
communists who were responsible for the destruction of over 45 million lives and continue to
this day with the same KGB antics (only now they call themselves GRU). The situation is most
definitely gray, largely because there are still many ethnic Russians who moved in after the
Kremlin made Famine of 1933-34. These people are still on the fence over their loyalty to language
or liberty.
SUNchess -> slava raczynska
Oh.. Famine 1933-34.))) it's a lie. Propaganda. Your brain is washed.
Colin Robinson
Regarding the May 2 tragedy in Odessa, you've agreed with Cohen that it was an "inexcusable
attack", but you think the crowd who carried out the attack started out as a "peaceful pro-unity
parade".
Some questions to consider: What sort of equipment did the "peaceful parade" have?
Did it include petrol bombs, for instance? What sort of slogans was the "peaceful parade" chanting?
Did they include "Death to enemies" and "Knife the Moskals", as has been reported? Where did
they plan to go, and what to do?
Was it violence from the other side which turned a "peaceful parade" into a lynch mob? Or
was the crowd in lynching mood from the start?
UkrToday
Peaceful protesters do not carry guns, bats and throw Molotov cocktails. Police do not shoot
police. Rioters do.
I think it is you that is trying to paint the picture n shade of beige or gray leaving out
the detailed background of geo politics and US. NATO involvement
You only have to listen to some of the statements of denial coming from Jen Psaki out of
the US State office to realsie the extent of disinformation and propaganda.
Sasha Kravets
I would add more to this article. The fact that someone (Mr. Pifer) needs to write an article
to try and show a more accurate picture of what is happening in Ukraine, indicates that Russian
propaganda was successful in presenting to the world completely perverted and untrue reality.
There can be no comparison between Maidan and the Russian invasion in the Eastern Ukraine. I
will say it again: there is no crisis in Ukraine, there is a Russian invasion. The only reason
people in the West do not understand that fact, is because Russian propaganda machine is working
hard and is very dedicated. There are no rebels in Ukraine. There are Russian soldiers, Russian
mercenaries, local mafia and small numbers of propaganda fooled locals that are kidnaping, killing,
robbing and torturing people in the name of the fascist ideas of "Russian Spring". This operation
has been prepared by Russia for years! The majority of Ukrainians in the Eastern part of the
country are waiting for liberation and hope that this terror, which Russia started, will end
soon.
Kolorad -> Sasha Kravets
O yeah! Russian soldiers, Russian mercenaries!!! Obviously there are many volunteers to fight
ukrainian fascists... But the most of these people's army are LOCAL guys from Donbass... Russian
lie? Russian propaganda? Tell that to the brave italian reporter that "amused" the crowd in
Shuster Live TV show... O yeah! Surely this italian journalist also is Putin's agent, right?
I've been sick and tired of Russian TV, but we already know that it is bad! Only because it's
RUSSIAN! If it is western media it ALWAYS RIGHT, because it's on the "good guys" side, only
because it's WESTERN! Please spare me your BS!!!
BHebb
Lots of facts missing from this article. I was here in Odessa and witnessed many of these
events. There is no need in my view to take sides between Kiev and Russia, there are other alternatives
to this tragedy which has fallen on Ukrainians, whether they are Russian speaking, Ukrainian
speaking, or of some other language. We ought to be asking ourselves what we, as a society
(and the USA certainly should be paying attention here) have done wrong when young people think
it is okay in broad daylight (or any other time of the day for that matter) to mix Molotov Cocktails
and throw them onto other people simply because they disagree with their views.
Anyone is free to look at the videos of what happened in the Trade Union building in Odessa
on May 2. There is no justification for what happened - albeit people are offering up lots of
explanations. A group of people who had been sitting there for months were attacked and over
40 killed. None of that needed to happen - it was not fate. It was hatred. Conversations, as
far as I can see, ought to be how we can get diverse groups in this large country to move away
from this escalation. It is getting worse.
I also disagree with this pointed argument against Stephen Cohen. You can agree or disagree
with the points he raised - he is not opposed to that based on what I read by him and heard
from his public discussions. He had advocated a public discussion - where people look at and
examine the evidence. This is the principle behind much of what he said was needed.
What is wrong with having a diverse public discourse on this? Surely no side is 100% right.
No side ever is or was. That is the only thing I am certain about.
factory_666
[Sorry for the user name, old one from Disqus]
I feel like Dr Cohen' article is a natural
reaction to the generally one-sided reporting of Western, pre-dominantly American, outlets of
the situation in Ukraine, which paints a very Black and White picture and almost takes sides
with American establishment. While that doesn't make him right, it is not something unexpected
since
After coming to Moscow about two weeks ago and experiences first-hand the reporting of local
news and their effect on the population it felt very much like I was still in the States reading
Washington Post or NYT, it's just that they bother a little less with concealing their extreme
bias.
Russian media shows Ukrainian gov't as exclusively evil, backed by Neo Nazis and aided
by American opportunistic Dept of State, while their military is aided by Neo Nazi vigilantes,
while American media does exactly the same only paints separatists as terrorists and Putin as
evil mastermind behind it all. While no one is surprised that Russian media is propagandistic,
seeing major American media outlets, whether Republican or Democrat, blatantly "skip out" little
facts about the conflict here and there to better shape the perspective of the reader that "Purin
is evil and separatists are terrorists" is extremely unpleasant. Because when those skipped
facts accumulate, American society's perspective on the situation is as skewed and biased as
that of Russian society.
NATA
The Russian soldiers on the border, the American soldiers are at war worldwide far outside the
USA which does all ostensibly in interests of citizens of America - clever commentators ask
-what interest the USA in Ukraine? There live Americans? Why you Biden sits as the head of government
of Ukraine? Why your advisers there work? If it is possible for the USA why no Russia help Russian
in Ukraine? <
Вячеслав
Kiev gang of fascists should not wait for the end. This is only the beginning. Regret that
you during the Second World War have not destroyed. If the truth on your side, why the Security
Service of Ukraine killing Russian journalists, makes it impossible to work in Ukraine?, It
is very strange. Time of reckoning will come to Kiev gang. Russian, can wait.
Олег Люльчак
Clumsy attempt to wash smeared in blood shirt. First: all seen the video where the police
and "berkut" standing with shields and batons, and crowd drove a bulldozer and throwing Molotov
cocktails. Secondly: similar riots in any country disbanded, including in the US. But in Ukraine,
namely the U.S. government encouraged not to do anything as long as it has not led to the overthrow
of the government. Thirdly: the Pro Odessa, there is a video which shows that the so-called
Pro-Russian activists actually provocateurs, all were wearing red dressing on the sleeves, and
after provocations (the attack on "the supporters of unity") went beyond the cordon of police,
on the sleeves of which were the same dressing. And so on throughout the text. There are a huge
number of video recorded on the spot, which is ignored by the leading media of the USA, and
the Department of state.
SUNchess
I saw comparison of Maidan and the Russian invasion in the Eastern Ukraine
Sure. Russians do not have $5 billion to create Maidan in Eastern Ukraine. Mr. Pifer forgot
to say about this in his article. Forgetful analyst...
"The Maidan demonstrations were overwhelmingly peaceful until the police assaults on February
18. To be sure, buildings around the Maidan were seized (and one rented)-mainly to provide shelter
given the bitter winter temperatures. And a small group of protestors (which included ultranationalists)
started clashes with police in mid-January, but their number never amounted to a small fraction
of the peaceful demonstrations a couple of blocks away."
--------
Shameless and stupid lies! The author calls the "peaceful protest" throwing stones and Molotov
cocktails at police officers? On u-tube and other resources full of videos, as the angry crowd
in Kiev beat police officers as burning alive their comrades poured a mixture of fire extinguishers!
And all this was long before February 18.
If military necessity of Strelkov withdrawal from Slavyansk was already discussed in details,
it's time to point out political component of this maneuver by Strelkov.
After the turn of the foreign policy of the Russian Federation in Ukraine in April 2014, almost
all like of Russian foreign policy toward Donbass began to close on Surkov and even Volodin was
de facto barred from dealing with the issue. After it became clear that sending Russian troops is
either delayed or taken off the agenda, the question arose what to do with what is happening in
the Donbass. For internal political reasons open betrayal of DPR and LPR was fraught with internal
shocks (the risks that are probably far greater than some think), the authorities had chosen an
intermediate option, when amid the retreat of official Russian diplomacy, Moscow continued tacit
support of the rebel republics.
The cause that emerges was directed toward the formation of Novorossia, which according
to the plans was to head Tsarev, who while in Moscow he began to receive funding (together with
several other persons, which were to replace him in case of failure) and to who supposedly the so-called
"people governors" of Novorossia in the amount of 7 to 9 people should report, being mostly
virtual figures. The first attempt to impose this Tsarev based scheme on Donbass failed - Tsarev
did proclaimed the new Russia, but a number of local politicians who head the resistance to junta
like Bolotov and Boroday said that Tsarev may there to declare whatever he wants, but the real decisions
are taken by other people. After that acquisition of local leaders in the narrow vision quickly
followed. After the second attempt Tsarev did managed to occupy top position in newly formed republic
as Moscow closed on him the financing channels and humanitarian assistance. So the local leaders
were forced to swallow their pride and ambitions.
When junta, covered by the USA open operation against Donbass which began to develop in an adverse
direction, the political course was taken on creation on the territory of the DPR (Donetsk People
Republic) and LPR (Luhask People Republic) some kind of analogue of Transnistria on the basis of
the 2 republics with a population of 7 million (the idea of Novorossia which presuppose addition
of several southern provinces at this point became just a propaganda phantom and no other provinces
were in the stage of military confrontation with junta.
There were attempts to negotiate autonomy for the Novorossia with the US and Kiev, but those
attempt were rejected. At this point the course changed on achieving some kind of agreement with
Akhmetov and his men who were offered preservation of their power and property, in exchange of support
of the rebellion and were guaranteed some positions in the government structures of the new state.
All these dances around the nationalization of property Akhmetov, when Pushilin first threatened
to nationalize, and then Boroday disavow him and said that we are not Communists and are not
going to take it away. And then new threats - some selected properties sill will be nationalized,
even if not all - is primarily external echoes ongoing negotiation with Akhmetov and his people.
Delivery Mariupol to junta, which has had the fingerprint of Akhmetov all over, who blocking all
the work in preparing the defense of the city, and essentially tried to eliminate militants who
are not controlled by him, so that they did not start building DPR in full force is pretty telling
episode. The story of Hodakovskiy that while already was a head of the "Vostok" detachment of DPR
continued to take money from Akhmetov and put his people into meat grinder was also part of those
behind-the-scenes trading of horses with Akhmetov. and the same attempt of Akhmetov to eliminate
with the help of junta those militants who seriously intended to build DPR.
The key problem of DPR actually was that Akhmetov still has a great influence on both the leadership
of the DPR and the Donetsk elite. Moscow tried to take this situation takes into account and attempted
to negotiated with him too (by Surkov and a number of responsible officials) to agree. But the junta
and the U.S. of course aware of these movements and Akhmetov, whose financial assets are in the
West, feel that they can squeeze his ball any moment they wish. Therefore, these trading of horses
did not get closer, but actually postponed the start of building of DPR and LPR, although the curators
of this Ukrainian question seriously believed that that their plan with Akhmetov will eventually
come to logical conclusion.
These trading of horses with Akhmetov, who has contacts both with Moscow and Kiev led to a very
strange situation, when Donetsk in a state of war with junta, in fact, was not subjected to artillery
shelling and air strikes (in contrast to Lugansk), which hints at the existence of certain arrangements
with the junta, about preservation of Donetsk and keeping it away from combat operations, which
were concentrated by junta on Slavyansk and the territory of LPR. Contacts of course were conducted
via representatives of Akhmetov, are can open both in Kiev and Donetsk any doors.
Due to this for three month all work on creation of people republic was sabotaged in Donetsk.
there is no uniform military command, the fact of presence of authorities subordinate to the Kiev
junta was ignored Militia detachments were dispersed, poorly organized and not able to solve
any problems of offensive nature. The fact that during May and June there were no any attacks on
the outer ring of encirclement of Slavyansk pretty well indicates the unwillingness of a number
of individuals to wage war with junta.
In the Donetsk itself flourished looting, banditry, murder, protection racket of businesses.
Pushilin assistant was killed, they also tried to kill Gubarev. Militia for more than a month stand
still near an encircled Donetsk airfield, there were no serious effort to capture tank warehouse
in Artemovsk, although nothing prevents to use the existing tanks and 2-3 company of militias
and capture this important military base. This operation was also sabotaged from Donetsk.
By the end of the ceasefire, the situation in Donetsk was close to complete betrayal of DPR,
the city elite actually decided to shied away from war, and local politicians have tried to
bargain with Moscow and Kiev, using DPR as a bargaining chip, And the residents of DPR became essentially
the hostages of this bargaining. Strelkov was expected heroically die defending Slavyansk far from
this political horse trading.
But in July it became clear that the "truce" is used by junta for concentrating forces
in Donbas, Donetsk elite went into panic. That greatly strengthened the party of defeatists, which
did not for a minute stopped negotiations with representatives of the Kremlin, but in fact
started via representatives of Akhmedov to prepare the city to surrender. they did not want the
continuation of the war and Strelkov was just redundant for their plans - so they did nothing to
prevent closing of all Slavyansk supply lines by junta
At the end the only supply root was available via Nikolaevka - nobody thought to punch for him
sustainable supply corridor. Troops from Russia were not expected (but it was partially with the
view on their arrival that Slavyansk was defended from junta mercenaries as an important communication
hub. By the evening of July 2 Strelkov realized that there will be no deblocking strike
on junta. , although judging by his appearances, the understanding that he became a sacrificial
lamp come to him somewhat earlier. Plus he got direct information that in Donetsk there is a growing
danger of complete betrayal.
When Strelkov managed to escape encirclement and retreat to Donetsk with most of his fighters
and equipment, it caused at first slight shock, and then open panic. Strelkov organized the garrisons
of the cities that he left for final stand in Donetsk and wanted to convert it a fortified area
so that he can conduct active defense of this region with key points in Donetsk itself and Horlivka.
By this maneuver he ruined all the plans concerning the peaceful surrender of Donetsk to junta.
That explains sudden statement of Akhmetov "not to bomb Donetsk" quickly followed by promises
of junta "We will not bomb Donetsk" and hysteria in the Internet "Strelkov brought the war in Donetsk".
Of course, he did brought the war in Donetsk, because there was a strong desire by junta to take
the Donetsk without war and bury DPR. That means that Strelkov mixed up all the cards
to the party of defeatists and destroyed combinations that Surkov attempted via talks with Akhmetov,
in which Strelkov didn't have any place.
He was not taken into account in those combinations for two reasons:
1. Strelkov represents so called "the party of war", which does not want peace with the junta
and wants the war to be victorious and end with the surrender of junta in Kiev. He has no place
in any backstage talks with the junta. For the same reason has no place in any backstage talks with
Akhmetov . Any serious battles in the Donetsk industrial region will obviously result in numerous
destruction of numerous properties which belong to Akhmetov. This is far from what he expected,
when he flirted with DPR leadership and tried to install into leadership his peoples.
2. Strelkov because of his monarchist beliefs maintains contacts with right-wing, nationalist
and even semi-fascists type Like Prosvirnin, accepting help from anyone who will give, without much
discrimination on the principle - I will take from anybody for this noble purpose. Surkov and Company
does not want to have right-wing Novorossia, with nationalistic flavor that some leaders are trying
to give the image of Strelkov, who openly supports Putin and has not impose any projects of the
new state from himself. Even though he is accused of harboring the intention to capture Rostov and
to March on Moscow, which is the complete and obvious nonsense.
to people like Surkov people like Akhmetov, Medvedchuk, Tsarev are much closer as in case of
creation of "Donetsk Transnistria" he knows that he can delegated to them the local authorities.
The people's like the Mosgovoy or Gubarev are unlikely to be admitted to any key decisions
- such people as Surkov are rather afraid of those people and are accustomed to solve all "problems"
in a narrow circle of "friends" among local elite.
However, the Russian authorities themselves are beginning to be conserved of the perspective
of appearance of "Patriotic Maidan" in Moscow, which in reality would be a direct result of the
current Surkov machinations to create a "new Transnistria" through negotiations with Akhmetov. People
who were yesterday consolidated into Pro-Putin majority, would not accept this changed political
line and start first to ask questions, and then to look for the guilty ones, and sooner or later
hit the Kremlin. That is, we must understand that Surkov policy is destroying the Pro-Putin majority,
and create the threat of the "Patriotic Maidan", which is merely a potential consequence of "Donetsk
combinations" by Surkov himself. And here, by the way is nothing new - it is worth recalling that
similar "clever" combinations of Surkov in domestic policy has once already led to mass unrest
in Moscow before the elections of 4 December 2011, after which he was kicked out of his position
of curator of internal policy, and was replaced by Volodin he less than a year were cut short Surkov
blunders, bringing the percentage of people supporting Putin from official 36% in January 2012 to
86% in April 2014.
Now it seems history repeats itself - Surkov starts to get too far and endanger not only DPR,
but Putin himself, splitting the post-Crimean" Pro-Putin majority, throwing out the part of the
patriots in the opposition and designing paper tiger "Patriotic Maidan" from yesterday's Putin's
fans. Which will be of course taken advantage by the Americans, if they decide to be seriously engaged
in the decision of the question on the organization of this Moscow "Maidan". The fact is that
under the cries about "the threat of Patriotic Maidan", uber-patriots prepare the soil for it splitting
post-Crimean Pro-Putin majority. This is of course quite obviously some circles in Moscow, so Strelkov
was probably warned about the situation developing in Donetsk. We should not try to present his
of some kind of don Quixote. That's why when suspicions of Strelkov were supplemented by information
Donetsk developments, was organized a rapid break out of encirclement into Donetsk. the maneuver
that allows him to crush party of defeatists in Donetsk, which threatened the very existence of
DPR with subsequent betrayal of interest of people of Donbass and as a potential consequence
of the revolution in Russia in the style of "Russian revolt lite".
Strelkov arrival to Donetsk already led to the fact that part of those who wanted to surrender
DPR to junta and talks with Akhmetov began to scatter from Donetsk. For example former commander
of the Vostok Khodakovsky who was on Akhmetov's salary (but nevertheless freely visiting Moscow)
already relocated somewhere (rumored to be Mariupol). The Ukrainian authorities loyal to junta,
who quietly existed in Donetsk before joining Strelkov, also began a rapid escape from the city.
There was "cleaning" of not captured loyal to junta institutions and today Donetsk mayor Lukyanchenko
suddenly left town for Kiev "for consultations". That means that Strelkov (with the possible
help from certain circles in Moscow) just started to destroys the base of collusion between the
junta and Akhmetov, as to surrender the city in which there are several thousand of armed militants
who are ready to fight junta is not very realistic scenario. Strelkov group is one of the
largest groups of armed men he himself has significant authority among the inhabitants of DPR and
militias. For Surkov pro Akhmetov circles this authority must be immediately destroyed, as it begins
to pose a real threat to the policy.
That's why the propaganda campaign "Strelkov is the traitor" was launched in which different
hypocrites try to sling mud on Strelkov, trying to rescue collapsing combination Surkov with Akhmetov
& Co. In this respect, of course we should not concentrate on the Kurginyan and Bagirov, both are
just talking heads. They simply brought to the masses a certain message associated with chagrin
that the Strelkov had survived and does not allow for quiet political "combinations" in Donetsk.
The hysterical nature of the company, which began with the well know speech by Kurginyan (who
was just a patsy chosen for the campaign, and was not the organizer of it) is well demonstrated.
It looks like it was prepared in a hurry, so it turned out to be far from convincing, and
Kurginyan finally became really discarded political junk -- his accusations were primitive to hold
water against a person who for three long months successfully defended Slavyansk against superior
junta forces and provided the necessary time on the creation of a Donetsk People Republic which
was not really created due the sabotage of those who are now on a run from Donetsk and those who
now feel uncomfortable to sit in their chairs in the light of the arrival of the Strelkov troops.
In this regard Kurginyan lies that "in Donetsk's everything was all right" is pretty telling as
in realty Donetsk was on the verge of betrayal and surrender to junta.
If they fail to kill the reputation of Strelkov, then of course it will try to eliminate him
physically as they already tried to kill Bolotov and today tried to kill mosgovoy, who also represents
the "party of war". These people prevent collusion with junta and surrender and therefore, must
be either compromised or destroyed. In this regard, those characters who are now trying to vilify
Strelkov actually play into the hands of the junta and the party of defeatists who prepare the surrender
of Donetsk and backroom conspiracy deal with Akhmetov. The question whether they are motivated by
money or ideological beliefs, is purely rhetorical. Network fools, who amplified this propaganda
wave, are just consumables of big policy, which is carried out behind the backs of those militias
who are fighting in the trenches, fighting heroically against the superior forces of the junta.
We should not idealize Strelkov, and he is probably far from great statesman. Also his ideological
views are frankly pretty specific, but the point is that by his heroic defense of Slavyansk
and by the efforts of Russian propaganda, he is from unknown army battles reconstruction specialist
was now converted into a serious political figure, behind which there are quite q number determined
people with guns. So now he became a political figure to reckon with, and many fear him and will
of course try to destroy him -- both Ukrainian fascists and Russian fifth column.
Here we must understand that the Strelkov is one of people on which real, not virtual DPR is
based upon. And any attack on people type Strelkov, Gubarev or Mosgovoy is primarily
an attack on the real DPR where there is no place Akhmetov, Hodakovskiy or Medvedchuk. T
Therefore, this situation around Strelkov very revealing in terms of revealing hidden enemies of
the real independence of DPR. So write down the names and nicknames of these characters, who willingly
or unknowingly act as gravediggers for DPR. We should know the names of our enemies in person.
On June 16, without a lot of fanfare, Russian natural gas giant OAO Gazprom (NASDAQOTH:
OGZPY)
cut off supplies to Ukraine's state energy company Naftogaz. The move was in response to failed
talks on Naftogaz paying a fairly substantial debt for previous shipments, and refusing Gazprom's
plan to move to a prepayment system.
The fears about siphoning leading to a cut in Gazprom exports
to Europe have so far been unfounded, with flows remaining normal and Ukraine using a substantial
underground reserve of previous shipments. The EU gas crisis did not come to pass, at least not
yet.
Why the EU isn't out of the woods yet
Though Ukraine's stored reserves amount to some 14.2 billion cubic meters, the country's
massive dependency on foreign (i.e., Russian) supplied gas means they'll burn through that, at present
usage, sometime in late autumn. Naftogaz officials are pushing for a state of emergency and
forced 20% consumption cuts, which they say could allow them to get through the winter, albeit just
barely, and only if it's not a particularly cold winter.
Whether it comes late this year or in early spring of 2015, one thing is clear: Unless Naftogaz
resolves the standoff with Gazprom, something they insist they won't do, Ukraine will run out of
gas in a matter of months. When that happens, siphoning is inevitable, and supplies to the rest
of Europe will be in jeopardy.
Supply cuts from Russia will mean big price increases in Europe, as the few alternative sources
of natural gas become all the more sought after. Major EU energy importers, like Germany's
E.ON (NASDAQOTH:
EONGY)
, are going to be paying out the nose for gas, if they can get it at all. Existing deals between
E.ON and Gazprom are likely to be impossible to continue until the Ukraine situation is resolved.
Where will that gas come from?
The loss of Russian gas will be a much bigger problem for European customers than it will for
Gazprom, which has been picking up its exports to China and India. It's far from ideal for Gazprom
to have a cutoff to a whole continent, but they should easily weather that storm.
Europe, by contrast, is going to have to take a long, hard look at importing more liquified natural
gas, which could be good news for companies like BG Group plc (NASDAQOTH:
BRGYY)
, whose liquifaction plant in Egypt could benefit.
The other big natural gas producer in Europe is Norway's Statoil (NYSE:
STO)
, which could greatly benefit from a dramatic increase in prices across the region. The company's
profits are already flourishing on tight supply in Brent crude, and the natural gas crisis could
add even more to their already healthy bottom line.
On macroeconomic level, it is clear that Ukraine can avoid. the default. This year it will have
to pay foreign debts and loans of more than $69 billion. Of them 14.5 billion are loads to the banks,
46.6 billion - loans to the industrial enterprises, 1 billion load to the national Bank of Ukraine,
and 4.1 billion must pay the state itself in its external debts. The total volume of payments for
servicing the external debt exceeds 40% of GDP.
In early April gold and foreign currency reserves of the country barely reach $15 billion. The
Ukrainian government keeps repeating that for the salvation of the state's economy they urgently,
within two to three months, need credits for 30 billion dollars. But nobody will give them to Ukraine.
The first tranche of the IMF loan in the amount of about 3 billion were targeted for repayment of
the debt to "Gazprom", but for the intended purpose was used only partially. Another 1 billion has
provided US as a guarantee for government bonds. However, on June 24, the Ukrainian government had
to pay it to Russian Vneshtorgbank after demand to repayment. Today Russia is going to demand its
gas debt through international arbitration. the same path have chosen China, to which Ukraine has
not deliver wheat worth billions of euros.
... ... ...
In fact, Ukraine is the country-bankrupt. It follows from the analysis of Reuters. According
to the Agency, the Ukrainian authorities are negotiating with its creditors, the holders of state
bonds of Ukraine, on debt restructuring, as she is not able to repay them.
In order to repay the numerous loans and find the money for expensive military operations to
destroy the civilian population of Donbass, the Ukrainian authorities are tightening the screws
to the common people. And not only by raising taxes, announced Arseniy Yatsenyuk. Already officially
announced the freezing of the minimum wage and pensions, elimination of allowances to workers of
budgetary sphere and civil servants. Already discontinued the payment of bonuses to the staff of
government institutions, which were reaching 40% of the salary. But first of all liquidated local
co-pay to the lowest paid workers in the regions put them low poverty level. Planned monthly salary
of librarians, for example, will be a little over 1000 UAH. (83 dollars a month), doctors - 1200
UAH. (100$ a month), state municipal employees 1500 UAH. (125 USD a month). Even according to state
statistics, the average monthly salary in the near future will fall from 3575 to 3379 UAH. The level
of unemployment, according to the Minister, will rise from 7.1% to 8.2%.
Although the world Bank forecast inflation in Ukraine in 2014 at the level of 15%, and in 2015
- at the level of 10.5%, the reality is much more severe. Due to the depreciation of the hryvnia
and the crisis in agriculture prices for some products from February has risen by more than two
times, medicines - by 60-70%, which was officially recognized by the Minister of Finance Alexander
Shlapak. In fact, the number of import of medicinal products of the first necessity has risen in
price in 2-3 times. Remind: this happened in conditions when wages and pensions are frozen. That
is why for people of Ukraine, priority is not buying of new cars, not relaxing in resorts, where
the owners of hotels and lodges now are able to earn enough to sustain this institutions, to say
nothing about profit due to the catastrophic drop in the number of tourists.
But the hardest times for the residents of Ukraine only begin. From July 1, the price on the
natural gas for the population was raised 55-70%, hot water and heating by 40%, prices
for electricity - by 10-40% depending on consumption volumes, prices for centralized water supply
and drainage - 78-96%. The average cost of communal services will reach 1100 UAH per month
-- above salary of several categories of workers.
Largest rises hit Kiev, for which the hot water will rise in price almost on 70%, and district
heating - almost 60%. And this is only the first stage of the growth of prices for utility services,
which will continue to gradually rise until 2017. Today part of the population of the Ukrainian
capital is not able to pay the bills. From 23 June Kyivenergo started to switch off 754 houses
from the hot water due to the debt of communal enterprises which serve them which from the beginning
of the year exceeded 838 million. Previously we reported about disabling street lighting in five
districts of Kiev.
There are many people who rejoices about "taking" Slavyansk and considered it to be a victory.
I, personally, don't think that this is a victory for Kiev forces.
Judge for yourself:
Strelkov and his militants with all ammunition and armored vehicles almost unhindered
and practically without losses left the city. When the Ukrainian army was" Slavyansk, it entered
the empty city.
Streltsov now is in Donetsk. If he could turn a small Slavyansk into a fortress, which
for many months failed to take all the Ukrainian army, what he can do in and to what king of
fortress he can covery a huge Donetsk?
Near Donetsk there is no hills lile Korochun, i.e. the dominant heights from which you can
remotely shell the city. To surround and lock huge Donetsk will be much more difficult task
than a small Slavyansk. Given that Slavyansk was never fully surronded (Strelkov regularly
received military and humanitarian aid, weapons and ammunition), it is obvious that to block
a huge Donetsk is more difficult for this task the ATO forces lack the resources even
more so, then in Slavyansk.
The size of Strelkov's army increased significantly. Now he is connected with all
local forces (the battalion "East", "the Orthodox army" and the like), has at its disposal all
local armored vehicles and other weapons. In addition, he will easily replenish his detachments
with local volunteers eager to fight under "the legendary Strelkov".
All the above forces now will no longer operated as separate detachments, but will be centrally
controlled directly by Strelkov. He announced the creation of a military Council, which will
present all field commanders, for coordination
Strelkov now got the environment, in which he has full operational freedom. That is, he
can move freely in the region. If we consider the fact, that despite being surrounded he could
pursue successful counter-attacks as well as sabotage, now his room for maneuvers with his forces
is increased dramatically.
To remove and redeploy tied to the Slavyansk artillery and ammunition, which have been accumulated
more than one month, take a lot of time and a lot of resources. Tractors, fuel, etc.
Considering all the above factors the "anti-terrorist operation"(ATO) will easly splash
into authumn.
And time is not on Ukrainian side. By September it is projected that Ukraine will experience
severe economic problems and, as a result of unrest in other potentially dangerous regions (and
not only them) are more then probable. It was not accidental that Parubiy announced in his forecast
the resumption of "Russian spring" in Ukraine by September. ATO eats out a huge amount
of money every day, which Ukraine simply does not have. That mean that continuation of ATO is a
death sentence for economical and quite possible (by extension) to the current government in Kiev.
We can consider the operation to be a "victory: if forces of ATO would achieve what is called
"annihilation of the terrorists". But the "terrorists" left unharmed. And when you consider that
the Ukrainian army itself is not eager to enter into direct contact with the enemy, and prefers
remote shelling of their positions it might be another a long and tedious siege, which could take
much longer time then seige of Slavyansk. In addition, there is Lugansk, which successfully holds
the defense. But to split the ATO forces for effective siege and assault of two large cities is
just too much for the current army.
Apparently, this situation will inevitably lead to the resumption of the ceasefire and negotiations.
The editorial staff may not agree with the opinion of the author.
Russia's president,
Vladimir V. Putin, who warned last week that he would not stand by while the safety of Russians
was endangered, did not comment on the deteriorating situation. That was left to the foreign minister,
Sergey V. Lavrov, who complained about damage to civilian areas but mentioned nothing about possible
military action. The Kremlin appears to have taken that option off the table, in favor of a negotiated
settlement that might install close allies of Russia as the governors of Donetsk and Luhansk.
"A quick end to the bloodshed is in our common interest," Mr. Lavrov said at a news conference
in Sofia, Bulgaria. "We believe that there can be no excuses, pretexts for postponing the immediate
end of the shooting, as a result of which more peaceful civilians suffer, the outflow of refugees
multiplies and civilian infrastructure is destroyed."
In an apparent bid to slow the oncoming troops, the pro-Russian insurgents blew up two bridges
on the road to Donetsk from Slovyansk and Kramatorsk, two long-occupied provincial cities where
rebels were ousted over the weekend after a fierce bombardment.
At the same time, Ukrainian officials said their troops were setting up blockades to isolate
separatists in the cities. "The points of access to these cities are being blocked so that militants
are not delivered weapons or manpower or other resources," Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for Ukraine's
National Security and Defense Council, said at a briefing in Kiev.
Although the military has made substantial gains in recent days, analysts warned that battles
in the big cities could represent an entirely different and awful chapter, involving dangerous urban
warfare and potentially high numbers of civilian casualties. Rebel forces have appeared to make
a strategic calculation to abandon other positions and fall back into the urban centers, said Oleksiy
Melnyk, a security analyst at the Razumkov Center, a policy research institute in Kiev.
"It's in their advantage to get into the big cities, because the options of the government forces
will be even more limited," Mr. Melnyk said. "They can't use artillery, aircraft."
Donetsk is a city of one million, Luhansk of more than 400,000, although large numbers of civilians
have been fleeing, terrified of being caught in the hostilities.
Late Sunday, Rinat Akhmetov, Ukraine's richest man, issued a plea that his home city be spared
destruction. "Donetsk must not be bombed," Mr. Akhmetov said. "Cities, towns and infrastructure
must not be destroyed."
Such destruction, however, was already underway. In addition to the road bridges, in the villages
of Zakitne and Seleznevka, rebels destroyed a railroad bridge in the village of Novobakhmutivka,
leaving a freight train dangling. In all, seven bridges were destroyed, Ukrainian officials said.
Calling the situation in eastern Ukraine worse than in Belgrade ahead of the civil war that broke
apart Yugoslavia, Mr. Lavrov urged the resumption of peace talks with the inclusion of representatives
of the militants from the east.
Echoing Mr. Lavrov, the German government on Monday issued an urgent plea, calling for a rapid,
unconditional and mutual cessation of hostilities, and said it was urgent to organize talks that
included the separatists. However, in a television interview, the deputy chief of staff of Mr. Poroshenko's
administration, Valeriy Chaly, said Ukraine would follow its own course.
"How to solve the situation in the country - it is our sovereign right," Mr. Chaly said.
... ... ....
Sveta Zinovyeva, 17, spent the end of her school year holed up in a basement with her family.
She said she had read romance novels to distract from the "horrible fear."
"We can't forget this," she said. "What did we do to them? What did we do?"
Selected Comments
Note:Looks like NYT became real neocon nest. The selection below includes only comments
judged "reasonable". As such this is far from representative sample as most NYT commenters look
iether like a typical neocons or as people brainwashed far beyond the level of typical Soviet level
of brainwashing under Brezhnev. Zero ability to analyses available YouTube material, zero knowledge
of history of the region, zero knowledge of EuroMaidan history and reason of start of civil
war, "USA, USA !" mentality (aka American exceptionalism) are pretty much dominant (along
with some poster from Western Ukrainian Diaspora). Really authoritarian level of dogmatism (those
who are with us are against us" mentality). Reading them makes a sad impression that the USA as
a society might well be past the point of recovery from neocon thinking, and as such is doomed.
And that people posting at Ron Paul Institute for Peace
and Prosperitylive in a different country.
j. von hettlingen, is a trusted commenter switzerland 5 hours ago
There must be seasoned strategists among the separatists. They retreated to Donetsk and Luhansk
and burned seven bridges in order to keep government forces from reaching the cities by road.
Air strikes are too risky in urban areas.
The question is how much support the separatists enjoy among the population and how long
can they hold out, if the cities are under siege?
Valeriy Chaly, Poroshenko's deputy chief of staff insisted "Ukraine would follow its own
course". What is it?
dubious, new york 6 hours ago
While the US led EU sanctions Russia. Guess McCain, Graham and the rest of the Neo-Cons leading
the war bellicose US foreign policies are very, very happy now. My question would be how long
will the rest of the world be held hostage by the US blackmail control of the world financial
apparatus.
Uziel, Florianopolis - SC 6 hours ago
Russians are a tough bunch. During the battle for Stalingrad a German officer --- unable
to comply with superior's order to take over the city -- accused the Russian soldiers of fighting
like 'gangsters.'
The so called Russian 'separatist rebels' prepare for a last stand at Donetsk and Luhansk
where they, certainly, will be defeated/killed by vastly superior forces. They will be considered
heroes/martyrs by their compatriots, sort of a Russian Alamo.
Regardless of the conflict outcome, Kiev will be creating a powerful and dangerous enemy.
Defeating separatist Russian national rebels will be a classical pyrrhic victory. It is
not the end but the beginning of a new Russia-Ukraine era of living dangerously.
Dr. L. Harrison, PhD, Albany NY 2 hours ago
Uziel -- I think you are probably citing the diary of Wilhelm Hoffmann (German 6th Army,
94th division), as recounted in "Victory at Stalingrad: The Battle That Changed History" by
Geoffrey Roberts; the quotes appear at the end of chapter 4.
Just who were the "gangsters" at Stalingrad is something the Russians would be happy to dispute
-- though that's a side issue here.
Donetsk and Luhansk will not be defended as was Stalingrad: the strategic circumstances are
not there, nor the resources, nor the will.
The question of Russian separatism in eastern Ukraine will remain -- but the facts of the
matter are that the separatists have indeed been "sold out by their allies in Moscow."
I suggest that the Bay of Pigs debacle is a better analogy here than Stalingrad.
Taurean, Queens, NY 7 hours ago
Initially, the "anti-terrorist" campaign was limited primarily, though not only, to rebel
checkpoints on the outskirts of cities. Since May, however, Kiev has repeatedly carried out
artillery and air attacks on city centers that have struck residential buildings, shopping malls,
parks, schools, kindergartens and hospitals, particularly in Slovyansk and Luhansk. More and
more urban areas, neighboring towns and even villages now look and sound like war zones, with
telltale rubble, destroyed and pockmarked buildings, mangled vehicles, the dead and wounded
in streets, wailing mourners and crying children.
Conflicting information from Kiev, local resistance leaders and Moscow make it impossible
to estimate the number of dead and wounded noncombatants-certainly hundreds. The number continues
to grow due also to Kiev's blockade of cities where essential medicines, food, water, fuel and
electricity are scarce, and where wages and pensions are often no longer being paid. The result
is an emerging humanitarian catastrophe.
Guy Thompto, Cedarburg, WI 5 hours ago
That's what happens in a civil war - people die. In the battle for Vicksburg, union forces
surrounded the city and literally starved the population into submission. The lesson: don't
start a war unless you are wiling to pay the ultimate price.
Taurean, Queens, NY 4 hours ago
The "war" was started by the U.S.-backed and paid-for fascistic front "government" installed
to reduce Ukraine to the same impoverished status as other IMF-indebted nations, while simultaneously
opening a deliberately provocative front vis-a-vis Russia.
It's clearly a chess game, with Russia losing, either by taking the bait of countering NATO
on its doorstep militarily (annexing Crimea, formerly part of Russia) and suffering severe economic
sanctions, or by allowing the West to incorporate Ukraine economically into the EU, and militarily
into NATO, increasing the American temptation to launch a preemptive nuclear strike.
Vasily, Tallinn 8 hours ago
Once again I write specially for NYT readers.
USA with its irresponsible foreign policy opened another Pandora's box.
There is instability in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Egypt, Libya. Is this not enough?
Using of heavy artillery, tanks, jet systems multiple rocket launchers, aircraft and bombs
in Europe, now in the XX1-st century - is nonsense. Not need to be very smart to understand
the stupidity of the USA government's adventures.
How are you going to pay off and soothe the conflict? If these warring people in the East
of Ukraine is not going to stop. Hate each other and continue to kill each other.
Slavyansk and Lughansk cities are almost destroyed. More than one hundred thousand refugees
now in Russia.
Stupid USA policy and President Obama has led to this situation. No one to blame for this,
but only yourself. And do not blame Russia for that situation.
Hypocrites ....
WimR, Netherlands 8 hours ago
The article suggests that fighting in Donetsk will be different because it is an urban setting
and the Ukrainian army can't use artillery and aircraft. But Slavyansk is a city with over 100,000
inhabitants too and the Ukrainian army hasn't shown any reluctance to use its artillery on it,
along with cutting water and electricity and even food supplies.
I don't see any reason to assume that the Ukrainian army will not use the same terror tactics
to subdue Donetsk and Lugansk.
Roger Binion, Moscow 5 hours ago
And what exactly should the Ukrainian military do? Nothing? Should they allow these Russian
led separatists and Russian mercenaries free reign?
The Ukrainian military has done an excellent job of limiting civilian casualties. It is the
rebels who are putting civilians in harm's way.
WimR, Netherlands 2 hours ago
"The Ukrainian military has done an excellent job of limiting civilian casualties."
By bombing civilian areas? By refusing to negotiate and insisting on an armed solution?
It is not their merit that the rebels chose to withdraw instead of fighting street-by-street.
It is estimated that half the city has fled. Casualty figures among civilians are unknown
but must be at least dozens. Yet the Ukrainian army keeps increasing its use of heavy artillery
against cities.
By claiming that all the civil casualties of the Ukrainian army are the fault of the rebels
you basically give the army a permit to commit any warcrime in the book without punishment.
Unfortunately it looks like that is the attitude of the US government too.
Andrew, San Francisco, CA 8 hours ago
The big change is that the Ukrainian army has finally realized they're not shooting at fellow
Ukrainians...they're shooting at Russisn agents and mercenaries, and traitors.
All that was needed was leadership, experience and courage.
May the separatists' final stand be brutally brief, and may Russians unhappy with Putin's
abysmal leadership borrow some courage from the Ukrainians of the Maidan!
WimR, Netherlands 4 hours ago
Nonsense. People from Russia form a negligible section of the rebels, although they do have
some important positions among them. The great majority of the fighters are local people.
Air Marshal of Bloviana, Over the Fruited Plain 12 hours ago
If the APC was a diversion, then it worked and could be a prelude for things to come. Options
in a fluid battlefront are significantly reduced when assets moving by rail are denied ingress
and egress. I would not want to be inside the line which connect those bridges.
But there could be another explanation for Russia's non-intervention in eastern Ukraine, which
is that the widely accepted view of Putin's aggressive intentions was actually wrong. This other
narrative fits the facts of the past five months just as well as Putin's presumed desire to act
on his post-Soviet nostalgia.
As recently as September 2013, Putin was insisting that he had no problem with Ukraine's status
as an independent, sovereign country, or even with its eventual membership of the EU. Then in February,
Russia appeared to accept the
agreement mediated by EU foreign ministers in Kiev, according to which the power of Ukraine's
then president, Viktor Yanukovych, would be curtailed and elections brought forward.
That deal, however, broke down – for reasons hotly disputed by all sides. The western consensus
is that Putin seized his chance and grabbed Crimea as the start of a lunge for all Ukraine, and
even Transnistria and the Baltic states, too. But there is another possible explanation: that
the combination of Yanukovych's sudden flight, the prospect of chaos spreading across Ukraine, and
fears that the west could exploit the situation to fast-track Ukraine into the western bloc caused
a degree of panic in Moscow that dictated what happened next.
Fear is a far stronger motivator for action than nostalgia. And Moscow's greatest fear at that
point would have been the loss of its naval base and single warm-water port in Crimea. In the disorder
that followed Yanukovych's overthrow, the Ukrainian parliament had shocked Russian-speakers by trying
to downgrade the status of their language. Why should the cancellation of Russia's 25-year lease
on Sevastopol not be next?
Shortly after Russia's annexation of Crimea, President Obama said that it reflected weakness
and not strength. That was soon forgotten in the flurry of assertions that Russia had readied
80,000 troops to invade eastern Ukraine, some of them transferred from Crimea. But if weakness and
fear, rather than strength and expansionism, lay behind Putin's actions, then the prime purpose
of those troops was not offensive, but defensive. The intention, then, was not to seize a chunk
of Ukraine or even – as a more sophisticated argument suggests – to make it ungovernable, but to
bolster Russia's own security and prevent lawlessness crossing the border.
Russia's prickly responses are often explained by a centuries-old fear of encirclement. Through
the cold war and since, that fear has been projected on to Nato – still seen in Moscow – however
unrealistic it may seem to its cash-strapped members – as mighty, malevolent and terrifyingly efficient.
If fear, rather than opportunism or strength, drove Putin's grab for Crimea, no amount of sanctions
or belligerent talk from the west will improve things. They risk making Russia's insecurities –
and its unpredictability – worse.
Ernekid, 07 July 2014 7:27am
Russia has a huge demographic problem, a rapidly ageing population, a creaking economy and
crumbling infrastructure. Putin should have bigger worries than Ukraine.
ID5933171, 07 July 2014 7:27am
'If Vladimir Putin was so intent on re-establishing Moscow's influence over Ukraine, why
has he not rushed to the aid of those fighting in Donetsk and Sloviansk?'
Without a doubt the most ignorant comment anyone here will read all day.
Russia stocks are up since sanctions began. Russia has almost no debt and has a ridiculously
high number of exports.
Your comment is the equivalent of saying that England was to win the World Cup in Brazil.
Finite187 nobledonkey, 07 July 2014 10:15am
That's odd. Russia hasn't been shut out of credit markets,
No, but the rates of interest being charged have gone up around 2% since Crimea.
it's rouble is higher than it has been all year
Given that it fell of a cliff after the Crimea intervention (it hasn't been this low since
the intervention in South Ossetia 6 years ago), this isn't a massive achievement.
I agree with you that Russia does still have large currency reserves, but it can't continue
this state of splendid isolation indefinitely, even with it's gas reserves. And turning off
the taps to Ukraine, as much as it may prove a useful political weapon, will restrict income
even further.
Given that it fell of a cliff after the Crimea intervention (it hasn't been this low
since the intervention in South Ossetia 6 years ago), this isn't a massive achievement.
Reuters is reporting that the Rouble is the highest its been since mid-January, which pre-dates
the Crimean intervention.
The rouble strengthened by 1 percent against the dollar to 33.78. It had earlier reached
its strongest since January, getting an extra boost from companies converting foreign currency
into roubles before they make monthly tax payments.
You continue:
I agree with you that Russia does still have large currency reserves, but it can't continue
this state of splendid isolation indefinitely, even with it's gas reserves. And turning
off the taps to Ukraine, as much as it may prove a useful political weapon, will restrict
income even further.
I would not agree that Russia is engaging in 'splendid isolation'.
Turning off the taps to Ukraine means just that: turning off the taps for Ukraine only. Hungary
has already committed to not reverse-flowing gas to Ukraine, and it's highly doubtful that the
Slovaks will also do the same since that would mean subsidizing Ukraine's gas needs where once
Russia was doing it for them.
Beyond the route through Ukraine, Austria just two weeks ago signed onto South Stream where
it is looking to invest as well. The USA is applying coercive pressure onto the Bulgarians to
get them to move away from the project.
No need to mention the recent Gazprom and Rosneft deals with China.
The question then becomes: how long is Europe willing to replace Russia as the subsidizer
of Ukraine's economy by way of cheap gas just to placate the USA?
Well, we know where German, French, Spanish, and Italian business stand. We know where the
City of London stands. We know where the French Government stands in respect to the recent BNP
fine and the destroyers for export.
And how Merkel has to deal with not only her own business community, but also the exposed
NSA double-agent in her midst.
The Ukrainians won't pass the constraints demanded by the IMF in their own parliament, much
less accept the targeted (LOL) 14% inflation per annum projected by the World Bank should they
take the money. Last week, Kiev shut off warm water for much of the city.
I did mention it when I stated 'destroyers for export' but I guess I should have phrased
it better. Thanks for bringing it up.
And so you did. My mistake.
The Americans have been shooting themselves in the foot all over the place lately, with
France and Germany being the most significant examples.
Could not agree more. The Germans are especially upset.
What will it take for the EU to chart a more independent course from the present one
in which they serve as an American vassal?
That's the most important question here, nobledonkey. What will it take? How much longer
will Europeans tolerate seeing their own rulers treated like dogshit by the ignorant, arrogant
war-pimps in Washington?
It was not clear who blew up the road and rail bridges, but their destruction would most benefit
the rebels. Battles between Ukrainian forces and pro-Russia separatists have left more than 400
people dead and thousands homeless since they began in early April.
In the village of Novobakhmutivka, where a railway line crosses over a road out of Donetsk, an
11-wagon cargo train was perched perilously on the collapsed bridge on Monday. The road leads toward
Slavyansk, a former insurgent stronghold that was recaptured on Saturday by Ukrainian troops. Blowing
up the bridge also damaged the railway line.
Anatoly Krasov, who had been driving along the road, said he had seen an explosion before the
bridge collapsed with the train on it. He said a group of men dressed in the camouflage uniforms
often worn by the rebels then got into their cars and drove back toward Donetsk.
Two other bridges on roads from Slavyansk to Donetsk were destroyed in the villages of Zakitne
and Seleznevka, the Road Transport Agency of Donetsk Region said.
There was no word from the Ukrainian president, Petro Poroshenko, who had promised to start negotiations
on a new ceasefire last week. A contact group for the Organisation for Security and Co-operation
in
Europe met in Kiev on Sunday to discuss the situation in Donetsk, but no representatives from
the rebels attended and no breakthroughs were announced.
On a trip to Bulgaria, the Russian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, pressed again for a ceasefire.
He also condemned the OSCE for its "unrealistic demand" that the talks take place in the capital,
Kiev, rather than in Donetsk.
Thank you - simple truths need to be continuously repeated. What Col. Strelkov has done in
Slavyansk for nearly 3 months will be something studied in War Colleges for centuries to come.
I like to draw parallels in the Russian struggle for independence to American history, and
would love to point to the following list:
Newport, RI
New York, NY
Brooklyn, NY
Philadelphia, PA
Savannah, GA
Charleston, SC
Wilmington, NC
Yorktown, VA
This is a list of cities from which Gen. Washington and the Continental Army was chased out
or retreated from during the War for Independence, handing them over to their British enemies.
One can only imagine what might have been the result in an age of the internet and Twitter and
YouTube if this string of losses were put together.
And I think we all know how things ended when Washington lost his last city in Yorktown.
There is another interesting parallel. Washington cut his teeth at war in his 20's in Pittsburgh
in the French and Indian War. Col. Strelkov did so in his 20's in Transnistria. Gen. Washington
assumed a real command in his mid-40's in the American revolt and turned a handful of rebel
militai into an army. Col. Strelkov is doing likewise in his mid-40's in Novorossiya with the
Russian uprising.
May he be similarly victorious, and hopefully in as many months as Washington took years!
Some thoughts from afar after staring through a foggy window.
There is a lot afoot at the
moment. The militia is consolidating in Donetsk Lughansk and surrounds. They have a fighter
aircraft (do they have a competent pilot and maintenance crew?), a grad MRL, fair number of
tanks and other artillery, anti aircraft weapons, troops. They have occupied strategic rail
link Popasnaya and I would guess are planning an offensive move of some kind as the junta forces
regroup and reposition. Doubt they will just sit in Donetsk and wait. Strategic rail bridge
blown up - not sure by which side - thinking militia to prevent movement of military equipment.
Junta is continuing to move heavy weapons and troops to the region and Poroshenko has announced
his approval for a military plan to liberate the rebellious region. No cease fire in the plans
for either side. Militia wanted junta to come parley in Donetsk but they refused.
Ukraine is trying to prevent air and sea access to Crimea (cannot prevent Russia but want
to put roadblocks in front of any other nations that might wish to). Threatened to shoot down
any Russian aircraft violating airspace near Azov Sea.
NATO and Russia having war games in Black Sea. NATO added an Aegis class missile cruiser,
unexpectedly it seems, to their exercises.
Mr. Akhmetov seems distraught about potential damage to Donetsk should the junta attack and
has appealed to Kiev not to bomb the city.
Lavrov wants the EU (and the US) to back and insist Kiev begin a new ceasefire.
My take on these things is that Poroshenko will not agree to any cease fire - he cannot or
he will be driven from office by Maidan - and the 'success' in Slovyansk has made the nationalist
forces thirst for a complete military defeat of the militia.
The militia will not agree to a ceasefire that doesn't protect them fully from Kiev, so they
will fight and try to defeat the junta forces if they can, as well as hold their ground.
This situation is not what the outside powers want - any of them, Russia included, nor is
it what Akhmetov wants. Events on the ground - probably from the time of the Odessa massacre
or perhaps really from the annexation of Krim - have begun to have serious momentum on the ground
that is not amenable to an imposed solution short of a decisive military defeat.
No one should assume that nothing is going on in the rest of Ukraine either. While many would
still prefer to keep their heads down I am sure many others are choosing sides and beginning
to organize. Many eyes watching what is happening. While many in the conflict area have fled
to Russia I am sure many others have fled the other direction - either because of family ties
and just seeking safety or because of their political preference. The migrants and their experiences
will affect the views of the areas they settle - as will the wounded returning from the front.
Not to say this will favor one side or the other, just that it will contribute to the process
of choosing sides.
The situation has changed - it is no longer civil unrest, it is civil war.
Should the militia continue to gain strength to the point that they cannot be defeated militarily
this will pose a very large problem as 'Novorussia' probably cannot exist as a political entity
without Russian support - overt political support - and I see Russia as very reluctant to provide
such. They wanted federalized regional autonomy (an EU approved settlement) and this may no
longer be possible to negotiate.
Should the junta succeed in crushing the main resistance there will be continuing sabotage
and low level conflict - an unstable repressive 'peace' that may flare up into open conflict
again at any time - especially as IMF austerity begins to have real meaning for the population.
The Saker, 08 July, 2014 01:03
ltr said...
oh my god!
I have no words.....
--
Mineworker and self-defense forces fighter of self-proclaimed Lugansk People's Republic,
rushed under tank with bunch of grenades saving his companions in arms.
"There was a fight near Izvarino yesterday; our friends from Krasnodon town took part in
the action. One of them was wounded in the leg and his friend Alexander Scryabin died a hero
throwing himself with a bunch of grenades under the battle tank," fellow of the deceased said
to reporters. He noted that "Alexander was 54, he worked at the mine Talovskaya as a construction
man," cites Interfax.
When the US first sent in large numbers of ground troops in 1964 the Vietcong were forced
to retreat from large tracts of land (especially the productive farm land in Mekong delta) to
more practical defensive positions in the jungles and mountains. Except for US army propagandists
I do not recall any of the leftist supporters crying that the Vietcong were therefore defeated
or betraying the peasants left behind. Most of those who followed that war closely, realized
that that is the nature guerrilla war. Mao's defeat after the three campaigns that led to the
Long March must have been traumatic to say the least, but they managed to extract over 100.000
men and their best commanders.
So strategic retreats are not necessarily bad even if they might not feel so good at the
time.
Andrew said...
The pessimist:
Should the militia continue to gain strength to the point that they cannot be defeated
militarily this will pose a very large problem as 'Novorussia' probably cannot exist as a political
entity without Russian support - overt political support - and I see Russia as very reluctant
to provide such. They wanted federalized regional autonomy (an EU approved settlement) and this
may no longer be possible to negotiate.
There is an obvious solution to this conundrum. The NAF must grow in strength until it can
liberate Kiev. It can then create new federalized state in place of Ukraine, accepting whatever
regions within it that it should chose and which would be willing, i.e. most likely not including
Galicia.
This would satisfy desired outcomes on all sides other than Right Sector and the Coup Government.
Anonymous
How many years will it take to drive these motherfuckers back to Lvov? And how many international
borders will be crossed with the blood seeds of this conflict? This is way beyond Russia, the
US, the EU, Putin, whatever.
All I can say is thank you to Novorossia self-defense for standing up for what is right.
You have changed my life for the better.
Shaun Walker is a despicable pressitute, so reader comments are much more interesting then the article.
Still with 50:1 in manpower and 100:1 in military hardware Ukies army is probably able to kill most
of anti-fascist and confederate forces ("pro-Russian separatists" as Guardian call them) before
September. As Napoleon observed, God is always on the side with better artillery.
"My order is now in effect – tighten the ring around the terrorists," the president posted on Twitter
after Slavyansk was regained. "Continue the operation to liberate Donetsk and Luhansk regions."
There were signs that rebels from Slovyansk were falling back on the regional capital, Donetsk,
to continue the resistance. Igor Girkin, the military commander of Slavyansk, told the Russian agency
Life News that he had arrived in Donetsk.
"We will continue the combat operations and will try not to make the same mistakes that we made
in the past," said Girkin, a Russian also known by his nom de guerre, Igor Strelkov. Thousands turned
out to rally behind the rebels in Donetsk on Sunday afternoon.
Girkin has been one of the most intriguing characters of the uprising. A Russian citizen with
apparent links to military intelligence, he was previously known for enjoying costumed military
re-enactments, and has been an elusive figure since he emerged as the figurehead of the Slavyansk
resistance, giving interviews to only a few trusted Russian correspondents and issuing decrees threatening
to shoot people for desertion or looting.
The separatist leader Pavel Gubarev read out a message from Girkin to the crowds in Donetsk,
in which the commander compared the flight from Slavyansk to the decision by the Russian army to
abandon Moscow in 1812. Without that, Girkin said, Russia would not have defeated Napoleon and marched
on Paris, and for the same reason the fighters had left Slavyansk to regroup and eventually drive
Kiev's armies from the east before marching on the capital itself.
However, with Slavyansk back under Kiev's control, numerous casualties among the separatists
and no sign that Russia has any appetite to become more officially involved in the conflict, it
appears that the tide may have turned.
Poroshenko faces a decision on whether to attempt a final and decisive victory over the separatist
movement by taking on the fighters in Donetsk and Luhansk, major urban conurbations where civilian
casualties would appear to be likely.
Already, there is a huge amount of anger in the east over some of the methods used during
the "anti-terrorist operation" to rid the east of fighters, much of which has relied on hastily
assembled volunteer battalions.
Tanya Lokshina, of Human Rights Watch, called on the Ukrainian authorities to mount a "thorough
and impartial investigation" into apparent air strikes on villages near Luhansk that killed a number
of civilians including a five-year-old boy, according to witnesses.
Selected Comments
Kal El, 06 July 2014 6:18pm
It was known all along that the ceasefire was simply a chance for the Ukie forces to strengthen
their positions around an already fully encircled town.
No doubt any offensive by the army in Lugansk and Donetsk will not go reported in the West
due to the significant amount of civilians who will be killed as well.
Still, genocide is all in a days for a Pro-Western Ukrainian and spineless Western politicians
who turn a blind eye as long as civilian casualties serve the EU's interest.
Walrave -> Kal El, 06 July 2014 6:54pm
The rebels are not fighting, they've been fleeing left right and center. Perhaps someone
stopped paying them. As for genocide, if the "rebels" didn't want civilian casualties they shouldn't
have moved to city centers, but stayed on the outskirts. It's hard to fight an enemy that uses
the locals as a human shield and not cause collateral damage, it's hardly genocide though.
RussianFriend -> Walrave, 06 July 2014 7:46pm
These 'rebels' used civilians as a human shield only in the reports of the wretched Ukrainian
TV and in the tall stories concocted by the Ukrainian Army phsychological warfare squads.
RobertNeville, 06 July 2014 6:18pm
The Prince of Dark Chocolate will fall once the people see through the mirage paradise of
the EU and NATO.
thatchersnemesis -> Kal El, 06 July 2014 7:51pm
Because the Russians don't kill civilians do they? Certainly didn't in Georgia, or chechnya
either. Come to think of it, no one got machine gunned trying to cross the Berlin Wall either...
If you think Russia is a benevolent democracy, you need to try living there first.
Wormsign815 -> thatchersnemesis, 06 July 2014 9:14pm
I chuckle every time I hear about Georgia, seeing how people so conveniently omit the fact
that Georgia started it, by shelling civilians in Tskhinval, and killing Russian soldiers stationed
there in the process. Check Wikipedia, even it has a description of this short war that defies
western media's blatant lie about how "Russia invaded and occupied two provinces in Georgia
in 2008".
As for Chechnya, you know when arab sheikhs pay actual terrorists to go and establish a jihadist
emirate within the borders of your country, there aren't many ways in which you can react. Seeing
today's Chechnya, I'd say Russia handled the problem pretty well. And with Salafism being the
fastest growing Muslim sect in Europe, it remains to be seen quite soon how EU will handle the
similar rise of radical religious militants on its very own soil. Let's wait and see.
AidanFrance -> Victor Prutyanov, 07 July 2014 10:29am
The west has been killing, raping and pillaging all across the world for the last 500 years.
They then must have "negative" authority to speak up about human rights.
You have some gall to talk about Russia's right to speak about a bloody situation in a neighbouring
country where millions of native russians spekers live and millions of ukrainians work across
the border in Russia.
And the kremlin is the sponsor of this war...are you for real. You really think that Russia
wants a civil war in a bordering country. WHo is the only country who can benefit from this?
Do you think it is Russia?
GeneralVV -> Walrave, 07 July 2014 11:53am
You trust stories told by western/Ukranian mass media, which DISTORT the REAL events that
happen in REAL Ukraine (I mean Ukraine with ordinary residents, but not that Ukraine with paid
up oligarchs who are ready to sell out their country and their poor people and in this case
blinking the reality with hundreds of dead people, damaged buldings and destroyed lives!!!).
Every country wants to be free and independent and Ukraine is not an exception and it WAS independent
but now it's on the hook de facto (but not on the hook of "rebels", who are trying to protect
Ukranian native lands and towns but not bombing, or "pro-Russian separatists" or Russia itself
). Every day Ukranian press informs citizens that the common situation is under control but
no...Sooner or later everything will be over and I mean not the civil war...
Mitochondrion -> Walrave, 07 July 2014 12:31pm
Where do you think U.S. puppet Poroshenko's Nazis were going?
Kympachash -> Walrave, 07 July 2014 1:14pm
They are not rebels --- they are antifaschists. Shame on Europe and USA for their
open support of Kiev faschist junta.
terziev, 06 July 2014 6:19pm
And this is happening with the support of EU. The shame is on all of us!
Zamindar, 06 July 2014 6:24pm
I think a visit to the Ukraine is in order for all West Europeans. Travel does broaden the
mind. Cheap flights from Gatwick !
BMWAlbert -> Zamindar, 06 July 2014 6:28pm
I am going back (for work) and was there recently (may), but this is hardly a good outcome,
these regions could have been kept in place by a peaceful referendum, under proper conditions,
the UA would have won such this Spring, now they will have ruined provonces and a quasi-N. Ireland
situation.
VladimirM -> BMWAlbert, 06 July 2014 6:33pm
Kiev rulers rejected the idea of referendum, or federalization, they did not listening whatsoever.
Peace was not what they needed.
NWObserver -> VladimirM, 06 July 2014 7:08pm
Kiev rulers rejected the idea of referendum, or federalization, they did not listening
whatsoever. Peace was not what they needed.
Kiev rulers are not a homogeneous lot. There is the Western appointed "interim" government
that turned into "regular" government immediately after the Presidential election that has no
interest in peace or even unity and then there is the democratically elected President who is
interested in peace and unity but is hostage to the government. At the moment Poroshenko seems
completely powerless, but he may be waiting for just the right moment to flush the neo-Nazis
from the government.
Kal El, 06 July 2014 6:28pm
3 months and hundreds of civilian casualties to re-take a town of 100k.
Donetsk itself has a population of 1 million according to the last census, 2 million if you
count the suburbs. Whereas Lugansk has a pop of 500k.
Pro-rata, looking at a campaign lasting over a year and with a more densely packed population,
civilian casualties into 5 figures and 5-6 figure displacements/refugees.
War in the middle of Europe and yet politicians in the West act as if nothing whatsoever
is going on and Western MSM whilst watching it first hand ignores anything that would paint
the Pro-Western fascist junta in Kiev in a bad light.
As well as hundreds killed and thousands injured, thousands
made homeless due to shelling, even more thousands displaced and refugees
Ukraine's economy is in tatters, and the US/EU are too broke to help it.
It's population is deeply divided and army action has only exacerbated that.
The EU free trade deal will in the short term ONLY benefit the EU whose companies can flood
Ukraine with goods straight away, whereas it will take Ukrainian companies months/years to comply
with the relevant regulations. This will mean that EU companies will effectively kill off any
Ukrainian competition before it even has a chance to compete. Therefore the free trade deal
will ONLY benefit the EU in the medium and long term as well.
Ukraine can't even pay for gas it has already received, it's going to be a long/hard winter.
Ukraine has previously sent 27% of its exports to Russia and relied on Russia for 32% of
its imports, but Russia has already started to block some imports. Putin can simply sit
down in his chair whenever he likes and squeeze the Ukrainian economy's balls.
Yatsenyuk bemoans that for the last number of weeks instead of complying with IMF demands
to reign in spending, MP's have ONLY been passing bills to increase it for populist measures.
Measures that won't happen because the money isn't there for them. Ukraine could therefore find
that further IMF tranches are withheld.
No money, no jobs, broken promises, and IMF austerity on top is only going to produce a very
unhappy population. I expect gallows on Maidan for captured MP's before the end of the year.
Crimea won't ever be going back. Which isn't surprising since Kiev illegally annexed it in
1995 anyway following referendums which it tried to ban in 1994 that voted overwhelmingly to
leave Kiev's influence far behind.
Ukraine's gold is now tucked away in the US Federal Reserve never to be seen again.
Ukraine has now won ? From November last year to the present day, Ukraine has lost EVERYTHING
it ever had.
The EU free trade deal will in the short term ONLY benefit the EU whose companies can
flood Ukraine with goods straight away, whereas it will take Ukrainian companies months/years
to comply with the relevant regulations.
This will mean that EU companies will effectively kill off any Ukrainian competition
before it even has a chance to compete. Therefore the free trade deal will ONLY benefit
the EU in the medium and long term as well.
It will greatly benefit the US-Neocon establishment and their multinational corporate interests,
which thanks to the TTIP will soon have a free hand (and legal immunity) to do whatever they
want to Ukraine. The chaos and carnage is exactly what they want -- thereafter, they'll loot
the remains. Likely add a US military base as well. A levered-in US/NATO puppet government would
not be inclined to oppose the likes of Monsanto anyway... But the same also applies to EU controlled Europe, including the UK
Buenaventura71, 06 July 2014 6:40pm
For all we know the self-defence militias could be laying siege to Kiev and the Neocon Daily
(sorry, the Guardian) wouldn't report it, like it failed to report the basic facts about the
Odessa massacre or to do any sort of balanced, in-depth journalism about the broader Ukraine
crisis other than press the Neocon line. How does it feel to go, in the course of a few months,
from being a reference newspaper which ample sectors of the public trusted to report fairly
on most issues to a Bush-Blairite rag which no one in their right mind would trust to tell the
truth?? Congratulations, Guardian, I hope you feel proud of yourselves, and if in doubt please
check the Comments section on your 'reports' about Ukraine to realise that nobody, I mean, nobody,
is buying the Victoria Nuland version of events.
mauman Buenaventura71, 06 July 2014 6:43pm
Neocon Daily (sorry, the Guardian) wouldn't report it,
Surprised your comment hasn't vanished. Mine do, frequently
Kal El, 06 July 2014 6:41pm
It would seem that so far, all the money loaned to Ukraine has been spent on equipping the
army and death squads then paying them to kill as many Ukrainian civilians as possible.
Maybe they are on bonuses for the number of kills.
Nenad Vidovic Kal El, 06 July 2014 7:02pm
Be shure that was also pressure on countries which have a soviet type weapons (Romania, Hungary,
Poland, Croatia...) to deliver spear parts for planes and armored weehicles which were till
start of operations in non operational conditions.
mauman, 06 July 2014 6:42pm
how many civilians are the Ukranian army killing daily?
Ceasefire my ass. Civilians deaths continue to be ignored by the western media. We don't
see the pictures. We do elsewhere though. We KNOW
I'm actually embarrassed for this government that claims it's acting in our name by supporting
murderers like this Ukrainian thug
Peabody94 -> mauman, 06 July 2014 7:03pm
Well there are quite a few embarrassed by the ravings of people such as you. Ever been to
Russia or Ukraine?
sfgirl42 -> Peabody94, 06 July 2014 8:21pm
I visited Ukraine a while back but am astonished at the bloodthirsty ignorance and bigotry
in "modern" Kiev.
"...Already, there is a huge amount of anger in the east over some of the methods
used during the "anti-terrorist operation" to rid the east of fighters, much of which has
relied on hastily assembled volunteer battalions..."
"...Anger..."?
"...hastily assembled volunteer battalions..."?
But surely not. I thought "all of Ukraine" supported Poroshenko and wanted unity and EU love,
and the "separatists" were just a handful of evil Russian spetsnaz hiding behind civilians and
jumping out to murder Kiev heroes.
If that's suddenly not true any more then when did it change? Is that another narrative dropped
down the Memory Hole, along with the planned Russian invasion of - EVERYWHERE?
Notice it didn't say there was any anger in the West of Ukraine, who are either happy with
deaths or just believe spoon-fed lies by the Government machine.
Notice it didn't say there was any anger in the West of Ukraine
There was -- But that is not the kind of thing that gets reported.
He was asked by other MPs in Parliament: How long will you be killing OUR citizens and calling
it liberation? Petro replied: I am not going to attack our armed forces!
He was asked by other MPs in Parliament:
How long will you be killing OUR citizens and calling it liberation?
Petro replied: I am not going to attack our armed forces!
Interesting! Thanks for the information. He seems to be waiting for enough anger to build up
in the rest of the country before he takes on the neo-Nazis. After all, before he does that,
he needs to be sure that he won't meet the same fate that befell Yanukovych which the neo-Nazis
warned him would be his should he act against their demands.
I haven't seen that video but saw another in youtube, where a woman parliamentary shouted
to him Your ATO in the East is killing our children! and he just raised the voice to a high
pitch "I won't allow any one to tar our Armed Forces".
Russian Channel One reporters went on a road trip around Western Ukraine, asking people in
the street what they thought of the conflict in the East.
Everywhere save Odessa (I wonder why, hmm) the sentiment was "kill the terrorists, there
are no civilians left there, they have all fled into the West" and "Crimeans are traitors, they
are not true Ukrainians".
winning a battle is not the same as winning the war…but who knows who is telling the truth….
only time will tell if a full-scale guerrilla civil war breaks out….should the eastern ukrainians
inflicting heavy losses on the kiev ukraine forces….not just in eastern ukraine but also in
western ukraine then we will know that the kiev ukraine is lying about eastern ukrainians ….
and that the eastern ukrainians do want to separated and independent from kiev….if there
is no such guerrilla war and eastern ukraine become controlled by kiev relatively peaceably….
without much of a fight then we will know that putin and the russian government was lying
about eastern ukrainians wanting to be separated from kiev….and that eastern ukrainians are
happy to be ruled by kiev….
by winter we shall know for sure…some 4 months away...
Petro Poroshenko, ignored calls from both Russia and the EU to extend a ceasefire that
ran out a week ago and decided to go on the attack.
And what an attack that was. Bombing civilian areas with artillery and from the air.
Of course we rather not be told about it, his our "mate", our man in Kiev.
Poroshenko should quit while he's ahead. Having won a "great victory", he should now negotiate
a settlement. Unfortunately, the morons in Washington will think they're winning and will
press him to continue the fight and in the long run Ukraine will lose.
It is too early to draw any conclusions yet. Conflicts of this kind do not have a regular
pattern and may flare up in totally unpredictable ways. This so-called victory is absolutely
dismal given the scale and scope of all-out support from NATO that the Poroshenko clique enjoys
.
And then, of course, it's one thing to seize a city smashed into rubble and quite another
thing to restore life there. Today's victorious trumpeting is surely too premature.
Not so much a victory for the Ukranians as a retreat by the anti-government forces in the face
of blanket bombardment of Slavyansk and Kramatorsk. Many civilians have been killed and many more
will be slaughtered in the days to come.
Note that the reporter is safely ensconsed in Moscow, not on the ground and
makes no mention of conditions there.
Considering the percentage of the residents of Slavyansk (and other towns) who are now refugees,
and the stated aims of the Kiev regime, ethnic cleansing would be the smart bet.
>going to try to win back the population.
Their methods of winning back reduce to putting a sack over someone's head pulling the trigger
and demanding to sinf UKraines anthem or Bandera slaogans.
Poroshenko doesn't understand that for Russia exists the same red lines so loved by Mr.Obama.
Enough is enough. In web there are pictures of nazies and it's assistants hanged in Kiev after
retake of red army.
The history has it's habit to repeat. In this case again as a tradegy
When I saw that televised mob in Independence Square (Kiev) during the ceasefire baying for
blood, I knew that Ukraine as a unified political state was over. How can you have a unified
state which treats half its population as 'the enemy' with the full backing of the other half.
As for the people of the East they must struggle on even if Putin has abandoned them - which
is what it looks like - since the alternative for them is Palestinianization.
The Kiev-regime has evidently copied the methods of Mossad and the IDF.
It is extraordinary how this report shifts terminology. The opening establishes "Ukrainian
troops" (photo), "Ukrainian authorities" (Para. 1) and "Ukrainian forces" (para.2). Then the
notion of Authority is reinforced by quoting President Poroshenko's words: "...tighten the ring
around the terrorists" and "continue the operation."
The proponents of federalism are now demeaned by the word "terrorists" and dehumanized by
the word "operation". A few brief words from federalist/"terrorist" leaders then suggest their
future strategy before they are again demeaned by reference to "mistakes", high casualties,
withdrawal and possible Russian disinterest.
Only in the penultimate paragraph does an overview suggest that the victorious Ukrainian
Army may largely consist of "hastily assembled volunteer battalions" who are closer to mercenaries
than the Ukrainian regular "troops/authorities/forces" so guilefully evoked at the start of
the report.
Is it surprising that Guardian readers are confused?
The point the OP was driving at, I believe, was that the article is written in a way that
deliberately dehumanizes the anti-Kiev side, denying their point of view any, well, point.
"They're evil orcs from Mordor, and they eat babies for breakfast", you know?
"So go on, give up your sons for the volunteer corps which we will issue these brand new (actually
recently shipped in from Poland) state of the art (actually Soviet army surplus) rifles and
ballistic vests (shown even on Ukrainian TV to be unable to stop an AK bullet) and let us send
them to fight for the glory of the Independent Ukraine!"
Indeed, a symbolic win. An all-out army assault on a small contingent of untrained self-defence..
Army using aviation, mortars, all sort of heavy artillery to shell indiscriminantly civilian
targets - hospitals, schools everything ... led defenders to perform a tactical retreat. With
almost all of their forces easily escaping from the surrounded town. They started with a 100
of unexperienced volonteers with 1 kalashnikov for every 3 of their men and left Slavyansk haing
several hundred hardened and expereienced fighters armed to teath with machine guns, trusks,
APCs
Like the supposedly independent team looking for WMD in pre-war Iraq, which turned out to include
a contingent working for the CIA and related agencies who hid US missile guidance devices.
In the moment it seems more a victory to the separatist movement than to Ukraine. It took
them 3 months to regain the city which was held by some hundreds fightrers, city is heavily
damaged and its population's hatred for Kiev is bigger than ever. Despite the fact that it was
absulutely clear to everybody Slovyansk will inevitably fall, ukrainians assumed Strelkov will
stay there and die like a martyr. Which he didn't, tricking ukrainian army in the last moment
before their final attack and getting out of the city with most of his men, vehicles, weapons.
Gaining time to regroup and prepare the defense of Donetsk.
This man, colonel Strelkov, seems to have an exceptional strategic talent and he is gaining
immense popularity in East Ukraine and Russia every day. And his ideas: rebuilding of the Great
Russia. Not the soviet one, the one prior to that. It is known that he is everything else than
a fan of Vladimir Putin, and some experts even claim there are already moves from Kremlin to
neutralize Strelkov. Maybe in not so far future we will see an alliance, where nobody could
imagine it: between Kiev and Moscow.
Putin does not control these people and I doubt that Russia is officially
helping the easterners. The flow of Russians across the border by all
accounts I have read is marginal. On the other hand the SVR is obviously
there.
Putin would not dare betray the Donetz people by divulging tactical moves
etc. The security services of Russia would eliminate him for one thing.
For another this is political suicide. I have heard on RT, in an interview,
Svoboda (a well known Russian commentator) saying that VVP should be actively helping.
I personally believe that if an air assault is mounted against either Donetzk or Lugansk
and too many civilians get killed the Russian airforce will enforce a no-fly zone over them.
Maybe its a political win for Poroshenko in west Ukraine but it's not worth a whole lot as
a military victory. I guess they have a purchase now on the shale gas fields though, which is
important since they aren't going to have any gas next winter except that laundered through
Europe. The EU importing more from Russia so they can send their gas from other sources to Ukraine
may work somewhat if Russia doesn't cut them off. I suppose I should quit complaining about
this cause we'll need Ukrainian food production to replace that produced with the faltering
Oglalla aquifer.
There's a leakage of conversation of kievs junta in web with some proves on illegal trading
of human parts taken from cadavers or heavily injured in eastern Ukraine. The trade is organized
by junta what has helped to reduce the line of needed in German, Israel etc.
Isn't it funny that ukrainians are being called fascists because those in western ukraine
joined nazi germany to rid ukraine of the soviets, yet no one seems to call the Finns fascist
for joining nazi Germany in fighting the red army out of Finland. Maybe Finland should ask for
the return of karelia?
Good luck to galicia in their fight for independence.
Some -- not all -- Ukrainians are being called Nazis not because of what their grandparents
and parents did 70 years ago, but because they subscribe to the extreme nationalism, racism,
fascination with and marked enjoyment of violence, as well as the other key tenets of Nazism.
A number of Jewish organisations as well as the EU Parliament itself identified Svoboda as
a fascist or a Nazi organisation in 2012 and explicitly urged the rest of the opposition to
condemn and distance itself from it. Svoboda's fan base, the part of Ukraine from which the
party draws most of its support, is in western Ukraine and Lvov (an old Banderist stronghold)
in particular.
Fascinating how you can contrive to think that total economic, political and environmental
domination by predatory foreign multinationals, a US military presence -- with immunity in advance
for all crimes committed by both -- and submission to sundry dictates from a corrupt EU regime
that's hardly famous for integrity or democracy and operates as a branch office of the Neocons'
NWO, is somehow "independence".
Meanwhile the Ukrainian ministry of energy declared that Russians couldn't be the shareholders
of ukrwestern consortium of transit pipeline system.
Are there violations of international laws inc those of WTO?
And who is interested in that system if there's no Russian transit of gas?
Matteo Renzi is on record about intending to press the rest of the EU to back the South Stream
pipeline, which the Americans have got Bulgaria to suspend work on. Italy has the rotating EU
chair for the next 6 months, and I suspect Poroshenko and the rest of the Kiev regime are scrambling
to put together this new company with the help of the Americans before Ukraine is rendered irrelevant
by the South Stream pipeline. As for the legality of this clearly descriminatory ban, there's
likely to be at least one human rights violation (violation of the UN charter) in excluding
the citizens of just one particular country for no other reason than they are the citizens if
that particular country and not another.
Ukraine is creating it's own problems by producing combat hardened troops that they will
later have to discharge into an environment of rampant oligarch looting and corruption.
The real threat to Poroshenkos state will be an enraged ethnic Ukrainian populace unless they
reform themselves which is quite unlikely. It's pretty clear that most Ukrainians don't favor
the Nazi-lite parties so they'll turn on them soon enough.
I'm curious to see how western media will justify Kiev suppressing the "heroes of Maidan"
with military weaponry. A paper with forward looking propaganda strategy would be using EU officials
names in all their pro-Maidan stories so that the EU officials can have Google suppress results
based on privacy.
If EU officials are exempt from the memory hole then they should just pick some random Polish
dude and insert his name in every story about Ukraine. Then when the globalists turn on the
Maidan they can pretend that Maidan were always naughty chaps.
I am genuinely pleased for the citizens of Slavyansk and several other Eastern Ukrainian
towns that are no longer being subjected to shelling, cross fire etc. associated with fighting
in urban areas. It's impossible to watch the footage of the displaced and bereaved without being
moved.
Poroshenko no doubt he feels that the outcome justifies the manner of the military operations.
They are indiscriminate and brutal.
I do not wish to see the unfortunate citizens of Donetsk subjected to the same horrors.
That the anti-Kiev fighters cannot hold out without serious Russian assistance is obvious.
That the Kiev regime cannot prosecute total 'victory' without an inevitable massacre of many
more innocent civilians is equally clear.
Surely this is a time for negotiating.
If Poroshenko insists that the 'elimination' of all 'terrorists' is more important than the
lives of Ukrainian citizens, then his true character is revealed, despite the spin that Western
media will undoubtedly put on the proceedings.
Forgive me if I missed the relevant comments by you in the last few days, but I don't recall
you expressing concern, regret, and indignation that the Ukrainian government was shelling and
bombing the citizens of the South-East regions who are demanding autonomy from Kiev and self-rule.
If Poroshenko insists that the 'elimination' of all 'terrorists' is more important
than the lives of Ukrainian citizens, then his true character is revealed, despite the spin
that Western media will undoubtedly put on the proceedings.
Poroshenko should beware of the US/NATO tendency to flip which front-men it backs -- as soon
as it better suits the longer term Neocon agenda, that chocolate-nazi pig will one way or another
get eradicated by them as "an extremist" (and therefore allegedly nothing to do with them) so
the US/EU axis can replace him with a "moderate" butcher such as Tymoshenko.
But according to so many on this blog, how is this possible???All of East Ukraine was supposedly
standing as one behind the separatists and were all going to defend their crackpot self appointed
republic to the death?Yet Slavyansk has fallen over like a leaf...no 3 months siege here...
Or is the reality maybe that a few hundred pro-russian thugs wanted to play little soldier
and at the first sign of loss and death of the more hardcore elements none of the Russian minority
had the heart for this war anymore.
Me thinks alot of people have embarassed themselves on these blogs defending this tiny self-appointed
Pro-Russian minority to the hilt who never had a leg to stand on from the beginning. Even Putin
arguably their biggest ally stood by and watched the clown show unfold. He may have given them
weapon but very little else.
Read the article before commenting friend...
. ""...The town ...has undergone food and water shortages in recent weeks as Ukrainian forces
have encircled it, and there have been civilian casualties from Ukrainian shelling. Almost half
the population have fled, many to refugee camps in Russia, and Kiev now faces a sizeable task
to win back the population....
"...Already, there is a huge amount of anger in the east over some of the methods used
during the "anti-terrorist operation...."
Now ask yourself who has embarrassed themselves today?
Whoa, well now look at you, safe in your armchair pontificating on the "commitment" shown
by people in a town far away, living without food and water, having their homes reduced to rubble,
watching their loved ones and neighbours die.
Try and have a little respect.
And if even the Guardian version of reality is to "pro-Russian" for you now, you need to
ask yourself exactly how much of a blind apologist for fascism you are prepared to become.
The fact of the matter is that Yanukovytch was elected on a "Pro-Russia and pro-EU" mandate
and was carrying out his election promises. The EU & IMF wanted all of Ukraine to themselves,
with trade with Russia effectively banned.
The EU also demanded that Tymoshenko be freed, as a part of the deal. I don't know any countries
which allow outsiders to tell their justice system what to do.
So Yanukovytch told the EU & IMF to sod off. Yanukovytch is no more corrupt than Poroshenko
or Tymoshenko, both of whom are best mates with the EU & US.
The Saker is
somewhat
depressed that the insurgents in east Ukraine retreated from Slaviansk. But that
retreat was in good order and with few losses despite being surrounded by enemy forces. As their
commander Strelkov
explains there was no way Slaviansk could be defended against superior artillery and air superiority
with little means to counter those.
Strelkov is now
setting up
defenses in Donetsk which is a much bigger city with more resources and likely easier to defend.
As the Ukrainian army and the National Guard stormtroopers from the Right Sektor now move forward
they may soon find that they have some "left behind" enemies in their back who can seriously influence
their operations.
Supporters of the insurgents seem to
blame
Russia's President Putin for lack of (visible) support. But that is, in my view, thinking too small.
It is far
too early to have any idea of who has won or lost in Ukraine. What Putin is currently trying
to do, with growing success, is to separate the Europeans from the ever meddling United States.
Last Thursday a new agreement on a ceasefire was negotiated and agreed upon with Russia, France,
Germany and Ukraine at the table. When the German chancellor Merkel informed U.S. President Obama
about it it was the U.S. which
again threatened Russia and urged the Ukrainian President Poroshenko to continue his "Anti-Terrorist
Operation". The Germans and French will have taken note of this and will again move a bit more further
towards the Russian side.
In judging the current situation I agree with Anatol Karlin who finds that Putin is playing
a clever but cynical game:
[T]he lack of *direct* [Russian] intervention is more likely just the product of a series of
cold calculations that show it more likely to be effective in a few months than today, when:
a) The Ukrainian Army has become weaker and more demoralized;
b) Photos of bisected, bloodied, and burnt corpses have been filling the Russian and international
airwaves for a few months;
c) The resolve of the West and its unity are weaker;
d) The Russian economy is more prepared for any sanctions that are forthcoming; and
e) Austerity is biting Ukraine hard, and (gas-less) winter is coming.
Too bad that it is the residents of Donetsk who will be playing the blood price for
this.
The Twisted Genius (TTG), who is former Green Beret trained in creating and directing local insurgencies,
has a somewhat similar
take on the situation:
[Putin] he is another hard hearted empath. He knows that Novorossiya must be forged from fire
if it is to survive. They must want it and be willing to fight for it themselves.
...
Additionally, Putin disdains the West's penchant for R2P and aggressive interference in the
affairs of others. He will move if he thinks it is necessary and when he thinks it is necessary.
For now, I believe he is content to provide covert support as necessary, push for a real ceasefire
and political solution, and bide his time as a
new nation that intends to span from Kharkov to Oddessa and Transnistria births itself.
Posted by b at
Yonatan
"Too bad that it is the residents of Donetsk who will be playing the blood price for this."
The whole of Ukraine is a sacrificial pawn - the real target of the US machinations is and
always has been Russia. The US seeks to destroy Russia's independence and reduce it to a vassal
state so the US control its energy. That is why the US wants to prevent South Stream starting.
Startup of South Stream would totally bypass Ukraine, removing the US control of gas flow and
the potential to control the Russian and EU economies it allows. Remember Putin is the President
of Russia so his responsibility lies there.
The trolls may well start up their 'Putin betrayal', 'Putin needs to grow a pair' etc, but
the people who need to 'grow a pair' are the EU politicians. They need to recognize that a rabid
Nazi regime in Ukraine is a threat to them as well as Russia. My understanding is that Putin
is working on this. France has seen treatment the of BNP and the demands to sacrifice its economy
by cancelling Mistral. Germany has found the alleged spy, and DB is facing similar threats of
fines from the US. My impression is that Putin wants certainly France and Germany to agree to
some kind of peace force to protect the citizens in the south east of Ukraine.
If that fails and direct intervention becomes necessary, it will be at a time of his choosing,
when he has full support of the Russian people (as with Chechnya 2) and when his military are
happy the they have clear military targets (where, how many, what form etc) and a clear political
political end game (what's the exit plan?).
The Ukranian Right Sektor have ambitions to gain nuclear weapons (remember the control defense
and energy (incl. nuclear) ministries. They have openly stated they would use such weapons pre-emptively.
Thanks to the US, there are a number of loosely regulated bio-weapons plants in Ukraine (near
Kharkiv, Odessa for certain). The Ukraine situation is a real tinderbox and the massacre of
the poor citizens in the east is just the start.
Armchair generals, please feel free to provide us with any evidence that answers these questions,
particularly how to deal effectively with the RS Nazi problem. Otherwise feel free to leave
town on the rocking horse you rode in on.
Bob In Portland
At its simplest, US involvement in Ukraine has more to do with Russian pipelines than anyone
or anything in Ukraine. The US is trying to put a cork into Russia's delivery system to Europe.
The tell has been the US meddling in the South Stream pipeline. It's quite simply a business
maneuver to put western-controlled petroleum in prominence in Europe and to break the Russian
connections with the west. All the neo-Nazi street fighters who are puffing their chests and
thinking great thoughts about destiny and the will of the pure Ukrainian race are all going
to be disappointed. Actually, if they look around they should be figuring it out already, but
most will soon enough.
Let us say for a moment that the US is meddling in Ukraine for purely "honorable" reasons.
Allowing the South Stream to go ahead would relieve Moscow of its biggest worries (at least
economic) with Ukraine. Ukraine could go forward with its austerity program and the EU/IMF/US
could have the remains. But it's all about the control of energy. That's what Afghanistan was
about, a means to project itself into Central Asia and that big pool of petroleum there. Crimea
would have been a wonderful jumping off point to dismantle Russian control of all that.
It's very possible that once Crimea was taken by Russia this grand strategy was shattered
and everything else now is just spite. It won't end well for the Ukrainians, east and west.
Also, Germany seems to be making a lot of noises about the US and its NSA spying. Since the
BND and CIA (and their antecedents) have been working together since WWII, the fact that the
US spies on Germany is absolutely no surprise to them. I'm sure they do the same. For as much
indignity as Merkel has shown I wouldn't doubt that she has access to the menu from the White
House kitchen every night and whether Obama sleeps on his back or side.
scalawag
"In judging the current situation I agree with Anatol Karlin who finds that Putin is playing
a clever but cynical game...Too bad that it is the residents of Donetsk who will be playing
the blood price for this."
That's a clever way of making "Putin" out to be the "bad guy"
for not following western plans to get Russia involved in the Ukraine. The obvious undertone
in what "b" and Karlin say is that it is up to "Putin" (1) to intervene and stop the western
crimes there. Hence, it's now "his" fault the people in Novorossya are suffering.
What about the "cynical" west who are responsible for all the violence in the Ukraine? What
about "b's" German regime who have done squat to prevent to war, even though they easily could
have stopped it cold, and have been behind the western coup from the very beginning, and subsequent
repression and attacks on the people there? What about the other EU regimes playing along with
the criminal western attack? What about the people of the EU and the USA who sit idly by as
their countries promote war after war, coup after coup, and literally do nothing to stop them?
Karlin starts out reasonably in the first paragraph, but after that, one can see he is mostly
cleverly applying western propaganda. He uses the western disinformation that Russia (using
the "Putin" western propaganda meme) is driving the rebellion in the SW, when Russia is not,
and had even requested the rebels to hold off running their separatism vote. He falsely claims
it is Russia's plan to get many 1000's killed, and then use that as an excuse to enter and take
over, when Russia never wanted a separate Novorossya to begin with.
He makes false claims about the militia and troop casualty ratio that makes it clear he is
relying upon the false figures put out by the bandera nazi junta.
Karlin leaves out the western intervention in the Ukraine and the fact it is the driving
force there. The west supplies the money, leadership, tech support. It is the "head" of the
Ukraine now. The war crimes there are western war crimes. Karlin ignores this completely, and
reinforces the western propaganda meme of Ukraine vs "Putin". With that, he is able to ignore
all the other geopolitical factors and make the conflict appear to be a cynical "Putin" plan
for taking over the Ukraine.
The west engineered their bandera nazi coup in the Ukraine as part of a renewed assault on
Russia. They have been trying to get the Russians to intervene by every means possible. The
latest ploy now is the "guilt trip" tactic. They keep increasing the provocation level, killing
more people, to that end. The west knows public opinion in Russia is in favor of intervention
to stop these western nazi war crimes, so they push the "Putin must intervene" meme to discredit
him in the eyes of Russian people, as a cynical way to try and force a Russian intervention.
What Karlin (and "b") is doing in that piece is reinforce that propaganda strategy. Basically,
if their war crimes are not getting their desired reaction from the Russian government, they
work to get the Russian people outraged enough, public opinion will force the result they want
on the Russian government.
This was a successful strategy used by the west in their Pussy Riot operation. They had
Pussy Riot stage increasingly provocative actions, trying to force the Russians to arrest them.
When arrest was not forthcoming after the church "act", they pushed their "5th elements"
(2) in the media to whip up outrage and force the government to act. When they finally arrested
the plugs, then the rest of the western plan was implemented, with the results we all saw. This,
in effect, is the same strategy the western fascists are applying in the Ukraine to manipulate
the Russians into following the western script for Russia's isolation, eventual regime change
and break-up.
Incidentally, propagandist Karlin got thrashed in the comments after his piece. It's good
to see that people are seeing through this cynical western PR strategy to entice Russia to follow
the western fascist "Great Game" plan.
(1) not Russia, you notice, got to keep with that western propaganda meme of "personalities",
easier to use to demonize, and manipulate the masses by reducing geopolitics to simple minded
soap opera themes. Dovetails right in with their daily television indoctrination.
(2) obviously not all are "5th element", but enough to influence. With their Ukraine op, the
outrage is enough that there is a significant push for intervention naturally, without need
to really to artificially hype it in the Russian media. The western PR manipulators know that.
Ronald Thomas West
Merkel is playing a dirty double game, but that's par for the course, with the Christian Democrats
NAZI heritage. Related to this, there is a lot of Ukrainian life force to be drained to the benefit
of the Germans
What's amazing to me is, the Ukrainian naiveté. One would think they'd have wised up by now,
they are used as stooges and discarded like subhuman slav morons (I tend to agree with the moron
part)
A source close to the rebels told Reuters the rebels had been outnumbered by 50 to one and that
Government forces had more powerful artillery and weapons.
How is this a battle to maintain 'independence' and not a civil war?
Can we keep biased political commentary from news reports, please!
CutThruMediaLies, 05 July 2014 1:32pm
A bit problematic this article. Reaction of the people - what is it? Nature of the takeover.
Kiev Post have broadcast that fighters for Kiev will receive 'parcels of Land'. Kiev has announced
that they will not receive people surrendering. The Kievan forces rely on overwhelming and indiscriminate
bombardment with focus on critical services ie water and electricity which is against the Geneva
convention. The Kievan army itself advertises it's nationalism and refers to Russians in the
most awful way even though the people they are killing and fighting against are overwhelmingly
Ukrainian. The use of heavy ordnance and aero planes is against the Geneva convention. The Kievan
government have therefore carried out human rights violations than those that were used to destroy
Libya and led Hilary Clintonone of many Anglo-American sociopaths in positions of responsibility
to declare 'we came, we saw, he died.. ' gleefully. Where are Human Rights watch where are the
UN? This stinks to high heaven.
A few illustrative points
A few things here:
1. The Link - Unexpurgated propaganda from Novorossiya the name given to the Donetsk/Lugansk
breakaway regions in the Ukraine. Shows that there is something very fishy going on and if,
I can't quite believe it , they have captured the amount of military hardware that they say
they have, the war there is going to go on and on for ever regardless of external intervention.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTjjnIbfg2U
2. A Historical Statement from the EU 13th Dec. 2012 regarding Svoboda the political party
which represents Ukraine nationalism (previously Social-National Party of Ukraine) whose founder,
Andriy Volodymyrovych Parubiy, heads the Ukrainian National Security Council (after the Maidan
Coup). "Parliament goes on to express concern about the rising nationalist sentiment in the
Ukraine, expressed in support for the Svoboda party, which as a result, is one of the two new
parties to enter the Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian Parliament). It recalls that racist, anti-semitic
and xenophobic views go against the EU's fundamental values and principals and therefore appeals
to pro-democratic parties in the Verkovna Rada not to associate with, endorse or form coalitions
with this party."
3. I don't know if any of you have watched the world at war. It was a definitive documentary
made in the Seventies by the BBC voiced over by Jeremy Isaacs.
The opening scenes show footage from the air of a French village, Oradour-sur-Glane, voiced
over by Laurence Olivier. This village had its population completely massacred in a 'retaliatory
operation' by SS Division SS Das Reich. They were herded into a church which was set on fire
and machine-gunned. Das Reich has a regimental symbol called the Wolfsangel. This division fought
on the Eastern Front as well though surprisingly, maybe even amazingly, for an SS division serving
on the Eastern Front, I have been unable, in my brief check, to find any evidence of similar
atrocities on the Eastern Front. More likely to my mind is that 'counter insurgency' tactics
adopted on the Eastern Front were used in Oradour-sur-Glane.
I'll get to the point. A new brigade, the 'AZOV' brigade, has been formed in the new Ukrainian
'National Guards Army'. If you look at this link, you shall see what I mean. Its hard for me
to believe that the emblem isn't derived from SS Das Reich's.
If this is representative of the activities going on in South Eastern Ukraine, has our media
simply gone mute, or is there something even worse going on?
RhysGethin CutThruMediaLies, 05 July 2014 1:35pm
Oh dear, you wrote all that and then right at the end posted a link to the barmiest conspiracy
theory site on the internet.
CutThruMediaLies RhysGethin, 05 July 2014 1:56pm
Facts my dear boy, facts please point out where the facts are mistaken and I will check and
admit error. Given the allegations which I am making and the fact that they receive no corroboration
in the common sense media, I illustrate from where I can. The guys who run that site are a guy
called professor Chussodovsky who is an economist who was a peer of Milton freedman. Some of
his books namely the globalization of poverty are extremely serious. And factually quite accurate.
From your post I postulate that you are simply a slightly ignorant pejoratative idiot. Problems
with facts fine but writing off a source is simply the act of an ugly biped who charges money
to innocent civilians to cross bridges.
MalenkyMuk, 05 July 2014 1:34pm
The worst news of the week. My heart is crying. Is there any justice in the world? Is there
God?
The battles are won or lost and it does not mean victory until the end. The worst part is
that the Guardian mentioned nothing about civillian casualties for one week and suddenly reports
the victorious Ukraine army.
Aleksandr Romanovich Podgaets -> neomarxist, 05 July 2014 6:12pm
Ukrainian army bombed civilians for a week, then fighters decided to go to another city.
Victory declared.
at least that's what the article says.
christopher22, 05 July 2014 2:05pm
Has everyone noticed the (REMF) US military commentators are out in force today..
They have been ordered to post this right-wing nonsense of course but it is clear nonetheless,
that some of them actually believe that their efforts are supporting the USA against an imaginary
Russian enemy .
As anyone with more than two brain cells knows though they, like their political masters, are
dancing to a tune which is orchestrated by Wall St, Arms manufacturers and corporations (the
0.01%in fact)
Y'all come back real soon now y'hear?
EbbTide64, 05 July 2014 2:08pm
Obviously killing people's friends and relatives will persuade them to become pro-westernisation.
Should the people in the east should just lay down their arms and meekly allow the pro-Kiev
neo-Nazis to massacre more innocent, unarmed people, as happened in Odessa?
Poroshenko needs to show that he has control over these Right Sector thugs, before he can
reasonably expect people in the east to lay down their arms. They have a right to defend themselves
from murderous neo-Nazis.
Wiccaman, 05 July 2014 2:10pm
Good to see the Guardian's legions of cruise missile liberals out in force cheering on another
Western crusade to the last drop of someone else's blood, but remember...
In Iraq, Saddam was our man against the Iranians -
Then we killed him.
In Afghanistan, Bin Laden was our man against the Soviets -.
Then we killed him.
In Libya, Gaddafi became our go-to man for rendition and other services -
Then we killed him.
In Syria, ISIS were our men against Assad -
And now we are planning to kill them.
Now in Ukraine, Petro Poroshenko is now our man against Russia
And then...
Who wants to be our friend next? Any takers?
With Kissinger's doctrine, you don't have friends, just material interests...
Putin has sacrificed the eatern rebels so that he can hang onto Crimea which is what he really
wanted in the first place. Billioniare oligarch Poroshenko gets to proclaim 'victory' in the
east, EU and western face is saved, and Crimea stays Russian. Everybody's happy.
Except of course, for the poor bloody Ukrainians, who still have no economy, still have a
billionaire oligarch ruling them, and are probably about to face savage cuts in their already
meagre standard of living, in order to meet the terms of western loans to Kiev.
ProfRatBaggy PeterBrit, 05 July 2014 2:18pm
That's more or less it.
PeterBrit ProfRatBaggy, 05 July 2014 2:28pm
Meanwhile elsewhere, completely unreported in the western press, the Syrian Army have retaken
Aleppo's indutsrial zone, and look likely to raise its flag over Aleppo in the not too distant
future. But the rebels there still have foreign support and somehow I imagine if the Syrian
Army do finalize their recapture of Aleppo it won't get quite the same celebratory coverage
in the western press. It won't be described, for instance, as 'a turning point in the country's'...
'battle to maintain its independence'
pure propaganda from the oligarch coup leader, the media are banned from observing the coup
forces barbarities in civilians areas, ethnically cleansing Russian speaking Eastern regions
of harmless civilians who fear the US backed Nazi government in Kiev, the only logical point
to the junta's actions is to provoke unrest on Russia's border, regardless of the cost to Ukraine
citizens or EU countries dependant of Russian gas, America is the enemy of humanity, provoking
war and misery in every region of the world, its not the fault of the American people, they
are just as powerless as the poor of the world, and considered less than worthless by their
own warmonger elites
AbsoluteCrap MrSvejk, 05 July 2014 2:36pm
Ukraine is a sovereign country. Get that through you head. The country is not part of Russia/Soviet
Union no matter how demented Putin's mind is.
Russians need to boot that KGB murderous thug out of office.
WorldToSmall, 05 July 2014 2:43pm
From the 1 of July to the 4yh of July "Nikolaevka" " Semenovka" towns were flattened to the
ground. "Kramatorsk" and "Slavyansk" start to look like Stalingrad in 1943. Hundreds of delvers
including kids and elderly of those towns killed, untold number wounded. Where were you Guardian?
BBC? CNN? Nowhere in sight. What is this?
There can be a total war with tanks and artillery in the middle of the Europe of today and
mass media would not even mentioned
MrPaulDavies, 05 July 2014 2:44pm
The Kiev government's apparent joy at entering the city of Slavyansk is likely to be short-lived.
Anti-Kiev forces have staged a tactical retreat not a surrender and Kiev has been desperate
to show some form of victory in order to bolster troop morale. Its conceivably a trap too.
The reality is, with all the troops, heavy weaponry, aircraft, tanks, finance and supplies,
it has taken this long for Kiev forces to enter one of its major cities in the East. And this
after virtually starving the population out and a constant bombardment of the city.
This symbolic (rather than strategic) moment was the reason for President Poroshenko's ceasefire
- to reinforce the troops, change the military leadership, ready for an assault on Slavyansk
- which had, in all honesty, become the 'weakest' rebel stronghold because most fighters had
already left. Hence, no reports of mass casualties amongst the defenders - they simply weren't
there.
But UA forces will now be increasingly stretched to protect this symbolic gain. Each push
forward into Donetsk and Luhansk will increase the strain on their now 'defensive' positions.
And there will be no applauding crowds lining the streets with flowers - rather they will now
be treated with hostility as an occupying force - hardly a victory over terrorism.
stellendar -> MrPaulDavies, 05 July 2014 3:09pm
Slavyansk was certainly a rebel stronghold, but I wouldn't call a town with a population
of 130 000 a major city. Can you even imagine the size of such a town built with apartment blocks?
Google Earth gives perspective.
pagon007 -> stellendar, 05 July 2014 7:59pm
"major" - has several meanings, here means not "big", but "important, with many rebels"
Alice Ponomareva, 05 July 2014 2:45pm
During the cease so called fire, Kiev built up forces around the three towns.
Strelkov estimated the quantity, and warned the day before yesterday that he won't hold longer
than a week.
Asked Russia for the help the hundredth time, with the usual result. None.
Yesterday they said that one way or another they won't surrender and prepared to die.
stzzla, 05 July 2014 2:46pm
Guardian treats news in different areas like fads.....once they've reamed one fad out, its
onto the next.
They are obviously not getting many miles out of the middle east, so its back to the Ukraine
fad.
Meanwhile, in the weeks since they last reported on their new fad, tons of people got killed,
military advances have been made, which you can take for sure to mean that a lot of people have
been killed. Where was the reporting of this while it was going on? You know, when you were
paying more attention to your Iraq/Isis fad.
MFrenchman stzzla, 05 July 2014 3:17pm
This is true, but one gets the feeling these days the Guardian targets upwardly mobile
hipsters as its readership these days and there is no group more superficial and faddish than
that one.
Add to that much of the western media switched their coverage to Iraq because the readership
was calling them out on the propaganda and misinformation they were attempting to sell us as
news. It began with the misrepresentation of the Nuland recording and its subsequent underrepresentation
in the news and just took off from there.
Damocles59 stzzla, 05 July 2014 3:30pm
Hey, civilians get killed during wars. What did you expect? A picnic? There's plenty of news
on the internet.
Kal El, 05 July 2014 3:00pm
Vastly outnumbered, vastly outarmed, it's a wonder it lasted as long as it has done.
STILL however, not ONE Western politician has expressed regret at any of the civilian casualties,
even though their number is officially in the hundreds, and unofficcially undoubtedly far higher,
or the use of the Ukie army, because human life is worth nothing whatsoever to Western political
scum.
In Crimea we laughed our bal*s off at the new Ukie forces leader who claimed yesterday in
Kiev's Parliament that there would be a Ukie victory parade in Sevastopol. They had their chance
to fight for Crimea in March, but against properly armed and trained soldiers the Ukie army
simply surrendered it like the meek lily-livered cowards they are.
No matter though, against the backdrop of a starving population due to IMF austerity, and
a cold one due to no gas whatsoever, the Ukie political and military elite will undoubtedly
be swinging from gibbets by the New Year, because as far as Ukraine is concerned, Putin can
play a waiting game, and unfortunately for Kiev, Ukraine can't afford to wait out anything whatsoever.
Pawns will fall, but it's still checkmate to Putin.
Joseph Browne, 05 July 2014 3:09pm
They've taken back a town they destroyed. So what, nobody ever cares about the people who
live there who probably just want to live a quiet life and provide for their families i bet
90 per cent of the people Donetsk and Luhansk could give 2 fucks if they live in Ukraine or
Russia so long as they are safe and their families are provided for, to hell with USA,EU,Russia,NATO
FUCK THEM ALL AND FUCK WAR .
RussianFriend -> Joseph Browne, 05 July 2014 3:33pm
Poroshenko and his clique don't give a damn about peole at all -- they know they are
technical pawns acting out the will their superiors in Washington and Brussels.
All they have to do is to obey the orders they receive. These personalities know for sure
Ukraine is not the place where they'll have live upon retirement...
Most of the guards at the concentration camps in WW2 were Ukranians what are we all cheering
about.
To be fair, more than 4.5 million Ukrainians joined the Red Army to fight Nazi Germany, and
more than 250,000 served in Soviet partisan paramilitary units.
However many thousands joined the Nazi
Ukrainische Hilfspolizei, who participated in anti-Jewish and anti-partisan operations in
most areas of Ukraine as well as participating in the Holocaust and Nazi atrocities.
plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
SHappens, 05 July 2014 4:36pm
What ever is the real situation on the round, any "victory" will not last until they talk
and find an acceptable agreement for all parties.
After the murderings of innocent people it looks impossible to reunite West and East Ukraine.
It is far from being finished yet as EU understands that US wants a war going on at Russia's
border which nor EU neither Russia will allow.
Kal El, 05 July 2014 4:39pm
Ukraine is broke.
It's population is divided and due to austerity, will soon be starving as well.
It will be months/years before Ukrainian companies meet EU standards to be able to export
as part of the free trade agreement, whilst cheap EU goods can flood into Ukraine to kill the
competition right now before the competition has even started.
Meanwhile, Ukraine has no contract for gas and Ukrainian companies are already being denied
access to the Russian market.
And yet Kiev (and posters here) think Ukraine has "won" ?
ROFL.
ExuroPythonissam -> Kal El, 05 July 2014 5:10pm
Meanwhile, Ukraine has no contract for gas and Ukrainian companies are already being denied
access to the Russian market.
They can always take David Cameron's advice when Russia cuts off the gas this winter and wear
a jumper to keep warm.
"...It's kind of strange,
because in the last five days of the bombing and shelling, we haven't seen a single militia
compound that has actually been hit. Every building that we've seen been hit by the Ukrainian
mortars have been civilian buildings... that includes a school, an orphanage – we
were in an orphanage the day before yesterday that was hit... it's not like the Ukrainian
army miss-aimed or something like this – the same buildings when they are bombed, they hit
them very hard. We spoke to one woman who said that in the night a few days ago her apartment
building was hit with ten different mortars..."
Yep, indeed, I've seen it in interviews with Eastern Ukrainians
that the target is inflicting massive damage on civil infrastructure and civilians, rather
than a battle against those who fight.
So now Ukraine had it's own bloodbath, with 23 years offset from the fall of USSR. Let's
hope they won't be as slow in ending it.
Confederates has no chances against regular army with heavy weapons and aviation. Moreover, looks
like Poroshenko decided to imitate Croats. Quote: "My fear always was that the people of Novorossiya
would end up like the Serbs of the Krajina region who took up arms to defend themselves from a hostile
Croatia initially supported and encouraged by Belgrade and then abandoned to their fate in 1995 when
they were ethnically cleansed from the region forever."
Vasily, a rebel formerly stationed in the Slavyansk suburb of Andreyevka, who asked not to be
identified, told the Observer that 10 fighters had been killed and 15 wounded when their forces
came under heavy fire while retreating. But he said they managed to break through the Ukrainian
encirclement and withdraw with all of their tanks and vehicles. "We left Slavyansk to our beloved
president. He said he would raze it to the ground, and we had to leave so they wouldn't touch residents.
Thousands of them remain," he said.
The Slavyansk rebel commander, Igor Strelkov, a Russian citizen and former battle re-enactor
who Kiev has accused of being a Kremlin agent, had warned on several occasions over the past month
that his men could not hold out long under the fierce bombardment. Although weapons and volunteers
have been coming across the border from Russia, the peacekeeping troops that the rebels asked for
have not arrived.
The city has been a focus of the uprising in eastern Ukraine since armed men seized the city
hall and security services building in April, shortly after pro-Russia protesters declared people's
republics in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions. Those behind the uprising depict the Kiev government
as composed of fascists and nationalists bent on destroying the mostly Russian-speaking east of
the country.
Government troops surrounded Slavyansk at the end of May and since then have shelled the area
almost daily, inflicting casualties among both the rebels and peaceful residents. The Observer was
present in Slavyansk the day after rebels took control of the city and travelled there several times
as Ukrainian troops tightened the ring around it. Tens of thousands of residents fled the city
after water and electricity were cut off to most of the city in June as a result of the fighting,
and both sides say civilians have been killed, including children. The nearby village of Semyonovka
has been largely destroyed by shelling, with only a few dozen elderly residents struggling on.
RobinPercival, 05 July 2014 5:21pm
Remember Operation Motorman in Northern Ireland? Areas controlled by the IRA in Derry, Belfast
etc were invaded by British military forces in 1972. A massive "tactical" victory for the Brits
which led to a long and prolonged war.
Violence is rarely the answer. Only a negotiated settlement within Ukraine will deliver peace.
Better start now rather than latter.
Lawabider -> RobinPercival, 05 July 2014 6:05pm
They need to use lots of different means to stop Russia from taking over more of their country.
Nobody is saying that it's only violence; they've just come out of a ceasefire. After the war
they need to do a lot about Russia's brainwashing of some Ukrainian citizens. This to me seems
to be the real cause of the conflict.
Reuben Black -> Lawabider, 05 July 2014 6:16pm
Ceasefires only exist when the fire ceases and it never did. Slavyansk was under constant
bombardment the whole time.
You clearly understand nothing of the region - it's a heavily mixed populace and it's historically
Russian land, so it's only natural that the people who live there lean and sympathise towards
the east, especially when so many of them have friends and family in Russia.
lennonlives29 -> CaptainBlunder, 05 July 2014 7:51pm
Putin has let us hang ourselves by our own petard. We have supported a fascist regime that
is conducting ethnic cleansing on camera. Those videos are out there for the world to see and
there will be blowback from it. Those nazis travelled 500 mils to kill all those people after
they voted in a referendum for separation. It is absolutely appalling that the West is constantly
framing this about Putin while we they support these killers with their SS flags and atrocities.
Professor Stephen Cohen of The Nation magazine just wrote an article about how it is going to
come back and haunt the US.
http://www.thenation.com/article/180466/silence-american-hawks-about-kievs-atrocities#
Excerpt:
For weeks, the US-backed regime in Kiev has been committing atrocities against its own
citizens in southeastern Ukraine, regions heavily populated by Russian-speaking Ukrainians
and ethnic Russians.
While victimizing a growing number of innocent people, including children, and degrading
America's reputation, these military assaults on cities, captured on video, are generating
pressure in Russia on President Vladimir Putin to "save our compatriots."
The reaction of the Obama administration-as well as the new cold war hawks in Congress
and in the establishment media-has been twofold: silence interrupted only by occasional
statements excusing and thus encouraging more atrocities by Kiev. Very few Americans (notably,
the independent scholar Gordon Hahn) have protested this shameful complicity. We may honorably
disagree about the causes and resolution of the Ukrainian crisis, the worst US-Russian confrontation
in decades, but not about deeds that are rising to the level of war crimes, if they have
not already done so.
Forthestate, 05 July 2014 5:34pm
Government troops surrounded Slavyansk at the end of May and since then have shelled the
area almost daily, inflicting casualties among both the rebels and peaceful residents.
So a government which shells its own people on a daily basis, killing men, women and children,
and refuses to end the violence and negotiate, is depicted by this media outlet as engaged in
a " three-month battle to maintain its independence". 75,000 people have fled Slavyansk since
the government decided to launch a massive assault on the area - half the population. Ethnic
cleansing is an odd way to maintain your independence.
monkie -> Forthestate, 05 July 2014 5:47pm
75,000 people have fled Slavyansk since the government decided to launch a massive
assault on the area - half the population. Ethnic cleansing is an odd way to maintain your
independence.
funny how we heard so little about this tragedy, but to paraphrase you, having journalists
on the scene but not actually doing much reporting on the tragedy befalling the civilians of
slavyansk is a odd way to maintain one is practising journalism?
The Observer was present in Slavyansk the day after rebels took control of the city
and traveled there several times as Ukrainian troops tightened the ring around it.
Ambricourt, 05 July 2014 5:35pm
The local victory is merely the prelude to regional war.
No mention of:
1. President Putin negotiating by telephone with Chancellor Merkel
2. Tranportation and distribution of old soviet weapons from Eastern Europe to Ukraine's under-armed
forces
3. Alleged abduction/disappearance of young women from areas reoccupied by a mix of Ukrainian
forces and foreign mercenaries.
mary8stewart -> Ambricourt , 05 July 2014 5:39pm
If there is any truth in the disappearance of women from areas invaded by the Ukrainian army
this is a very disturbing escalation. Do the UN have a view?
Peace_Brothers, 05 July 2014 5:37pm
"There is crazy pressure on the Ukrainian government from 'friendly' Europe to force it to
end active operations in Donbass and announce another ceasefire".
So, according to this "Defense Analyst" Tymchuk, talking peace is "crazy", whilst continuing
a civil was with well over 200 of your own soldiers dead, and even more civilian deaths, and
even more rebel deaths is sane? Could he be saying twisted comments like this because, if there
is peace, he is personally out of a job?
No one will need a "Defense Analyst" (i.e. Propaganda Mouthpiece) once there is peace.
chesney79, 05 July 2014 5:41pm
They may have control of the region but the people they've lost forever.
WearyofthisSht, 05 July 2014 5:43pm
"We started restoring city life," Defense Minister Valeriy Heletey told Mr. Poroshenko, according
to the president's website.
You mean, you stopped shelling the hell out of the city? Great, give yourself a medal! Wait
- no need, Rambo Tyrchinov is already doing that...
Oleksandr Turchynov, the speaker of Ukraine's parliament, visited the troops at a checkpoint
outside Slovyansk on Saturday. Clad in flak jacket and helmet, he awarded medals to the troops
as explosions boomed in the distance, according to a video released by his office.
jgbg -> WearyofthisSht, 05 July 2014 6:25pm
You mean, you stopped shelling the hell out of the city?
As of Saturday afternoon, they were still shelling Sloviansk from nearby Mount Krachun. Presumably,
they don't feel they really have control of Sloviansk or perhaps, they just want to kill some
more Moskali.
JaniceK22, 05 July 2014 5:48pm
Ukraine will end up with guerilla warfare in the towns and cities which they won't be able
to put down.
What the Ukrainian army has done to the people, will not be forgotten and they will not have
peace in those regions. ANy victory by the Ukrainian army will tbe a Pyrric one.
peacefulmilitant -> JaniceK22, 05 July 2014 7:31pm
Ukraine will end up with guerilla warfare in the towns and cities which they won't be
able to put down.
Not likely. But the region will not become pro-Ukrainian overnight.
PeterBrit, 05 July 2014 5:57pm
"Government troops surrounded Slavyansk at the end of May and since then have shelled
the area almost daily, inflicting casualties among both the rebels and peaceful residents."
"The nearby village of Semyonovka has been largely destroyed by shelling, with only a
few dozen elderly residents struggling on."
Yes, I seem to remember that western politicians and journalists (correctly) accused Assad
and the Syrian Army of war crimes when it adopted that tactic against Syrian rebels. Yet somehow
both Western journalists and media have been almost silent over the last month or two about
the Ukrainian army's shelling of civilians. Weird that.
Beckow -> PeterBrit, 05 July 2014 7:26pm
When I steal your cow, it is good.
When you steal my cow, it is bad.
Western politicians and most of the media have not evolved beyond that tribal view of
the world. It is "us against them". The problem in this case that the "them" will not go away.
As in all disputes between groups, "victory" often just means occupation, and occupations
eventually get tiresome. Ukraine could have survived with a compromise and peace. It will not
with war and violence and one group trying to dominate the others....
peacefulmilitant -> PeterBrit, 05 July 2014 7:36pm
I seem to remember that western politicians and journalists (correctly) accused Assad
and the Syrian Army of war crimes when it adopted that tactic against Syrian rebels.
And I remember Putin saying that outsiders have no right to militarily interfere with Syria.
It should also be noted that the scale of mayhem in Syria and eastern Ukraine is totally different
- about two orders of magnitude different.
Forthestate, 05 July 2014 5:57pm
Those behind the uprising depict the Kiev government as composed of fascists and nationalists
bent on destroying the mostly Russian-speaking east of the country.
Whereas the western media supporting the coup in Kiev depict them as the democratic and legitimate
government of Ukraine, despite the fact they have not been elected in accordance with the constitution,
despite the documented neo-Nazi history, uniforms, regalia and rhetoric of parties controlling
over 30% of the cabinet who have never achieved more than 8% of the vote in any election.
RoyRoger -> Forthestate, 05 July 2014 6:57pm
Whereas the western media supporting the coup in Kiev depict them as the democratic
and legitimate government of Ukraine,
The British Broadcasting Company (BBC) has much to answer for. They gave much oxygen to the,
Kiev, molotov cocktail police murdering fascist neo-Nazi thugs.
And lets not forget; John Kerry; John McCain; William (American lackey) Hague & the unelected
Catherine (no constituency) Ashton who were comfortable in the arms, hugging and kissing, the,
Kiev, fascist's.
One thing we now know; their plan has unravelled. Things has not gone nor will it be going
all their way.
The Kiev fascist have prostituted themselves and many of the decent people in Ukraine are
not going to, in the long run, buy it.
Apezam, 05 July 2014 6:11pm
This situation was predicted a long time ago because this was never a civil war but a foreign
adventure by Putin. The inevitable has happened: foreign mercenaries and some local pro Russians
have decided to give up in the face of a lack of local support for their "Republic". The same
will soon happen in the cities of Luhansk and Donetsk. The real question is what will happen
to these separatists next as reports last week came out that Russian border guards were shooting
at them as they tried to reenter Russia. Pushilin, the "mayor" of Donetsk tonight criticised
Putin for creating false hopes and his "empty words" about "Novorosiya". Dugin, the extreme
right wing Russian politician who inspired and supported the separatists is singing the same
anti Putin tune. It finally looks like Putin's boomerang is turning and heading in his direction
MarinaKhari -> Apezam, 05 July 2014 6:25pm
Yes, Putin betrays Donbass. They made a referendum, the majority supported break off from
Ukraine and they rebelled counting on Russia for help as they do not have armed forces there
and cannot fight the Kiev Army - only rebels, some volunteer, poor arms, and they relied on
Putin's words who was hinting on not allowing Kiev to destroy poeple in Eastern Ukraine. This
betrayal is a disaster for Russia.
vest017 -> MarinaKhari, 05 July 2014 7:28pm
I should remind you that Russia was dragged into World War I in 1914 when it sent its troops
to help Serbia. It cost millions of Russian people died.
Perhaps Putin just doesn't want an unstable region at Russian borders and decided to sacrifice
tens of thousand Ukrainian citizens (even pro-Russian) instead of sending troops that would
almost inevitably clash with pro-Kiev Ukrainian army with probably thousands of Russian soldiers
(who are Russian citizens) to be killed. It would also almost guarantee to turn Ukraine into
a completely hostile state to Russia on its borders as would be seen as an aggression.
You know, policy is something where you need cold calculus, not emotions (that are irrational).
Manolo Torres -> Apezam, 05 July 2014 8:19pm
Lets be realistic if Russia wanted a foreign adventure, the Russian flag would be now waving
in central Kiev.
richard1, 05 July 2014 6:12pm
"But in a disarmingly frank interview with Russian media on Friday, a visibly shaken Mr Strelkov
admitted the fall of the town was inevitable.
"If Russia does not negotiate a ceasefire or intervene with its armed forces for us, for
the Russian people who live here, we will be destroyed," he said in an emotional interview with
pro-Kremlin tabloid Life News. "It will happen in a week, two at most." He said the Ukrainian
army had deployed 60 heavy guns against Slavyansk and the nearby towns of Kramatorsk and Semyonovka,
and all but accused the Kremlin of abandoning the rebels.
"[The fighters] are people who consciously took up arms to defend their language and their
culture, to defend Russia," he said."
Seems that Putin has betrayed the insurgents. When the going gets tough -the tough (Putin)
gets running away.
Time for lay down of arms and peace negotiations to begin.
kraljevic -> richard1, 05 July 2014 6:40pm
My fear always was that the people of Novorossiya would end up like the Serbs of the
Krajina region who took up arms to defend themselves from a hostile Croatia initially supported
and encouraged by Belgrade and then abandoned to their fate in 1995 when they were ethnically
cleansed from the region forever.
This looks suspiciously like a repeat scenario the only difference being that it took Belgrade
three years to turn against the Krajina Serbs while the Kremlin's resolve has only lasted three
months!
But despite the apparent victory for Kiev, Dmitry Tymchuk, a defence analyst with close
ties to the Ukrainian military, warned the campaign could drag on...He also criticised the
government's stated willingness to reopen negotiations with the rebels. "There is crazy
pressure on the Ukrainian government from 'friendly' Europe to force it to end active operations
in Donbass and announce another ceasefire," he said, noting that Germany in particular was
leading the "pacifist choir".
Meanwhile, here's more from Dmitry Tymchuk, the 'Defence Analysist' with close ties to the
Ukrainian military:
I know that among you, my friends, are many who have not given up hope for a peaceful
dialogue. As well, there are those who are certain that terrorists need to be neutralized
and destroyed without compromise, and that a peaceful dialogue is at our own peril.
To be honest with you, in my soul, I am wholeheartedly for the second option.
Correct - Tymchuk is the main UA propaganda man on the Kiev Post.
Slavadil, 05 July 2014 6:41pm
Funny how in Syria, cutting off a cities food, water and then bombarding the hell out of
it is considered a "war crime" while here it is seen as "fighting for independence" lol. Russia
is right to be wary of Western intentions.
Terry Huggles -> Slavadil, 05 July 2014 6:51pm
An interesting juxtaposition. Russians always fail to realise that the Ukraine is the aperitif
and Russia will be the main course.
Unfortunately the West does not differentiate Russia from Arabs, Africans, Asians and the
Chinese yet you believe you will be accepted as fellow Europeans. This will never happen, meanwhile,
Russian attack people of colour in the streets of Moscow and do not lift a finger to help your
natural allies.
MrSvejk, 05 July 2014 6:47pm
It's the poor Ukrainian people who will suffer next winter, without Russian gas, and an economy
in free-fall, forcing them to sell their national assets at rock bottom prices.
zolotoy MrSvejk, 05 July 2014 8:24pm
Precisely what the West wants: Guess who's going to be buying Ukrainian national assets at
rock bottom prices . .
mary8stewart, 05 July 2014 6:48pm
Why is the EU supporting the Kiev regime? Are they carrying out atrocities? Will they be
referred to the Hague tribunal?
vest017 -> mary8stewart, 05 July 2014 7:17pm
Poroshenko serves their goals - to give the EU a market of 45 million people owing to the
Association agreement
Alexander Bach, 05 July 2014 6:54pm
No mention of refugees. No mention of heavy shellings lasted for weeks. And by the way no
mention of shelling even the Russian territory.
Actually Ukraine couldn't reach the main goal: to drag Russia into the war (the constant
unfounded accusations don't count). Thus leaving the question open: what are they going to do
next. Russia is the only force that could keep Ukraine floating for awhile, but now they've
managed to do everything to exclude a slightest chance Russia would help. If Russia entered
Ukraine then the collapse of Ukraine would be Russia's trouble. Now it's their own. Great victory
zvanrost, 05 July 2014 7:07pm
Billionaire Poroshenko started his business by laundering the money of Soviet times' administrators.
He has never been an entrepreneur to start a business of his own. The story is invented. He
made a head start thanks to the criminal connections of his father sentenced for large-scale
theft in 1986. Having served the sentence, Poroshenko Sr. launched his own business making his
son involved in the activities. The business was dirty, it all started with plundering state
property by armed gangs. The Poroshenko family had plans to expand the activities beyond Ukraine.
Tatyana Mikoyan, a well-known Kiev-based lawyer, remembers what the family did in Transnistria,
"It was horrible back in the 1990s: illegal arms, prostitutes, drugs – all bringing profits
to father and son". Poroshenko Sr. was awarded for his merits – in 2009 he received the Hero
of Ukraine decoration bought for him by his son who paid to then President Yushenko, the Godfather
to Petro Poroshenko's children. The would-be President-elect is well known for misappropriating
budget funds. He has the reputation of someone who knows how to make money out of thin air.
Many times he has been accused of being involved in large scale corruption schemes, open lobbying,
embezzlement of budget allocations, tax evasion, illegal operations to acquire shares and physically
threatening political opponents and competitors. Certainly he is not just another swindler but
a tycoon, an owner of huge and diversified business empire.
But all these thugs (watch video) are 'blessed" by the West! Not a word will be said about
it in WMM or by politicians.
kitikat77, 05 July 2014 7:17pm
Ukrainian army practically destroyed the city and the surrounding villages - aircraft bombed
residential areas, several hundred people-civilians, children had died! Some villages was burnt
. Kyiv has not created a humanitarian corridor.
The Guardian, post photos of the destroyed Slavyansk, completely burnt village Semenovka!
lennonlives29, 05 July 2014 7:32pm
What the US has done in Ukraine is back ethnic cleansing and murder by fascist neo-nazis.
Why is it that when the now deposed president was using force that the US urged restraint against
civilians. Now that the new regime is doing it, the US encourages massive shelling of cities
and bombing of small villages like the other day. And the fact that the whole thing is being
covered up speaks volumes. Watch this video to see how many atrocities they have committed.
there is no doubt in any sane persons mind at this point that they are just killing across the
countryside. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7maMp-9wkiM#t=13
BazzafromOz, 05 July 2014 7:44pm
Ukraine is Ukranian. Some people who live in Ukraine identify as being Russian, perhaps they
should live in Russia. Speaking Russian does not make you Russian -- nor does speaking English
make you English and speaking French does not make you French. These Russian speaking people
in Ukraine are not Russian!!!!
GuyCybershy -> BazzafromOz, 05 July 2014 7:49pm
And those who are defending these atrocities are not human.
Kal El, 05 July 2014 7:47pm
Of course no mention in the article of the number of women, children, pensioners etc who
have been MURDERED in Slavyansk, Kramatorsk and elsewhere by Kiev's forces.
Pathetic.
tupperhouse, 05 July 2014 7:48pm
They bombed the city back to the stone age. Great victory, when Assad did this the West screamed.
canadaeast, 05 July 2014 8:04pm
It is remarkable that people are not talking about the towns of East Ukarine
which look like Aleppo in Syria and the hundreds of thousands who left for Russia.
Anybody thinks here that the easterners will look at those who destroyed their lives in any
other way except that of occupiers?
Let us see how the Kiev junta will deal with the process of occupation.
A leaked document from an army think tank proposes concentration camps.
(look it up). You will now have western MSM supporting pure nazi practices.
(Look up Rand Corporation plan for Ukraine)
GuyCybershy -> canadaeast, 05 July 2014 8:20pm
The shocking level of censorship of these atrocities is proof of how desperate the US and
EU are to provoke a major war with Russia.
RhysGethin , 05 July 2014 8:28pm
Sloviansk and Kramatorsk liberated today, Kostyantynivka and Artemivsk tomorrow.
Poroshenko can corral the Russian mercs into Donetsk and Luhansk in the next few days, declare
a ceasefire and negotiate from a position of overwhelming strength. Game over.
tanino51 -> RhysGethin, 05 July 2014 8:46pm
Game has just began.... Winter Will arrive
Jsteel -> RhysGethin, 05 July 2014 8:52pm
Liberated? From whom?
madeiranlotuseater -> Zaporozhye, 05 July 2014 8:38pm
After the signing of the Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Area Agreement, Poroshenko immediately
re-commenced his attack on innocent civilians. The European Union was established to Develop
Europe as an area of freedom, security and justice. It is to help Europeans live in safety,
without the threat of war.The United Nations Charter, Article 1, states the purposes of the
UN. It seeks to promote peace and security and to respect the principle of self-determination.
So, with this slaughter of innocent civilians it is important that The European Union must tear
up the DCFTA agreement with Ukraine. That agreement with a country that violates the very principles
behind the European Union and the United Nations is a travesty until the DCFTA agreement is
cancelled.
Our Europe, your Europe must never trade with a country that is led by a president who believes
that the mass killing of its own innocent citizens is an acceptable practice. It is not. It
never will be. The difficult path that Ukraine needs to follow in order to recover both economically
and politically must not be littered with dead bodies.
Tattyana, 05 July 2014 8:35pm
It is a very special victory. I must confess.
About a thousand or even more of those whom they call "terrorists" flew from the "blockade"
without any harm, but with all their weapons, machines and military equipment and some civilians
as well.
A "winners" entered the city and got ruins only. They even can not restore a water supply
as they themselves destroyed it out of possibility of any restoration.
It is symbolical, that that flag they hanged so solemnly was flown out by a wind in a minute.
The same as fallen honour guard during innaguration and closed pen which new defence minister
used to "sign" his innaguration oath. All is false and nonsense.
There is only one thing where Poroshenko has a talent - he is a great liar.
Tattyana, 05 July 2014 8:39pm
To escape misunderstanding in my previous post. Those civilians, who followed the militians
out of Slavyansk did it by their own good will - just run from Nazi Ukrainian Guards, who were
to enter the empty ruins of the former city.
Jsteel, 05 July 2014 8:39pm
How low can Guardian sink?
His colleagues were deliberately targeted by the men in uniform of the Ukraine. Not a word.
No strike. No blush. Instead smiles, twinkling eyes.
No real report of a regular army attacking civilian population. No protestation against such
an editorial policy. No blush. But smiles and twinkling eyes.
But why I am surprised? Guardian didn't bother to print a letter about an arrested researcher
in Tajikistan. It didn't bother to follow up on its own journalist clues on Majden and finished
the reporting on Snowden rather surprisingly short when they still had interesting bits.
Ranting? Yes. The triumphalism of this article in which no measure of the human blood that
was spilt was considered, just demasks (if there was any mask) hypocrisy.
Turney, 05 July 2014 8:40pm
I suspect many countries will leave "The Coalition Of Lunatics" soon. Only the USA, Canada,
Poland and Baltics will stay.
Jsteel -> Turney, 05 July 2014 8:45pm
I think you are exaggerate it. But of the countries that you listed only the USA is independent.
Doug Salzmann -> Turney, 05 July 2014 8:46pm
We'll see.
Watch Germany. The German people have clearly had it with this madness, but it appears that
Merkel is still dedicated to following Washington's orders.
Those must be very interesting recordings they have at the NSA.
GennadyG, 05 July 2014 4:58pm
Russian independent daily Kommersant reports that from about 400 to 500 thousand Ukrainians,
mostly women with children, have crossed the Russian border in the last few months.
Most have found shelter at the homes of their Russian friends and relatives. Others have
been housed in about 250 refugee camps set up by Russia's Federal Migration Service (FMS).
FMS said that 100 000 Ukrainians have applied for permission to stay in Russia for an extended
period of time. The agency said that 12 thousand of them would like to get an official refugee
status and 14 thousand had applied for Russian citizenship.
Russian experts assume that a vast majority of these Ukrainians - well over 80% - are planning
to go back after Ukraine returns to normal life.
However, they expect a rise of "labor migration" from Ukraine in the next couple of years
considering that Ukraine's newly signed association agreement with EU - which can bring positive
results in the long run - may be initially painful for the country's strained economy.
Sarah7591Wilson -> GennadyG, 05 July 2014 6:42pm
It's called ethnic cleansing.
The US has form on this, i.e. assisting European fascists in driving out ethnically inconvenient
people from their ancestral lands.
JaniceK22, 05 July 2014 4:59pm
Poroshenko will get no peace in those regions -- he will end up with a guerilla war on his
hands.
ExuroPythonissam, 05 July 2014 5:00pm
When the USA funded extremists and terrorists to fight Russians in Afghanistan in the 1980s,
they created the al Qaeda monster.
What monster is the US now creating in Europe by funding neo-Nazis and fascists to fight
Russians?
RuStand -> ExuroPythonissam, 05 July 2014 8:20pm
Al Ukeda ? Actullay they are not creating anything new, just good old Bandera-Nazi
Kal El, 05 July 2014 5:03pm
In the last week.
The US firmly pissed off France over the BNP affair.
The US has firmly pissed off Germany with yet another spying scandal.
I don't think the US can rely on much EU help re Ukraine or sanctions etc now.
Caroline Louise -> Kal El, 05 July 2014 5:05pm
Which is why the US desperately - desperately - wants Russia to move in to Ukraine, so it
can scream "aggression" and force the EU to toe the line.
Everything Poroshenko is doing has to be viewed through that prism
BengtFranklin -> Caroline Louise, 05 July 2014 5:26pm
Interesting.
Oskar Jaeger, 05 July 2014 5:10pm
Hopefully, this is the beginning of the end of the Russian rebellion in eastern Ukraine,
leading to the restoration of the law and order, and normal services, as soon as possible.
All these unnecessary and regrettable deaths could have been avoided if people in that area
had not been misled by the Pied Piper from the East.
Kal El -> Oskar Jaeger, 05 July 2014 5:12pm
You'd obviously rather the people were led by the Pied Piper from across the Atlantic instead.
BengtFranklin Oskar Jaeger, 05 July 2014 5:15pm
It was not a 'Russian' rebellion no matter how many times you lie about it and falsely try
to position it. But it is the CIA/Kiev genocide/ethnic cleansing. Are you pleased that you can
help that process if only in your 'small' way?
ploughmanlunch, 05 July 2014 5:11pm
That the Ukraine military will eventually oust the anti-Kiev forces from their strongholds
is inevitable ( given no intervention from Putin ).
The question is one of the resolve and determination of Poroshenko.
How much destruction, ruined and lost lives is he willing to accept as a price worth paying
?
Was it preferable to initiating negotiations at an earlier stage ?
A displaced or grieving citizen of Slavyansk might have a different opinion from a patriotic
Ukrainian living in Kiev.
I respect the fact that many of us, far removed from the fighting and suffering have differing
opinions as to the origins, conduct and motives of the conflict. However, I detest the triumphalism
that sometimes creeps in to posts of supporters from either side. Human misery should never
be a cause for jingoistic 'crowing', and has no place in civilised society.
BengtFranklin ploughmanlunch, 05 July 2014 6:20pm
Poroshenko has triple citizenship as do most of the oligarchs being apportioned chunks of the
Newkraine: Uk/Israeali/Moon. Some will also receive US citizenship for services rendered.
GuyCybershy ploughmanlunch, 05 July 2014 7:11pm
They'll destroy it to save it, that is standard operating procedure when it comes to
Western nation-building projects.
exiledoffmainstreet, 05 July 2014 5:11pm
Russia exercised major restraint by not coming in directly. Their program should be free
emigration based on prior soviet citizenship and an economic cut-off. Then competent people
will "vote with their feet" to exit the yankee protectorate.
wombatman, 05 July 2014 5:11pm
It is terrible when the Government of any country orders its security forces to fire on its
own population. It was rightly condemned when it happened in Kiev against protestors, mant armed
and using deadly force against a legitimately elected Government, but the same condemnation
of deadly force has sadly since been missing.
In the morning on the website published an article by Dmitry Grasov Civil
war in Ukraine. What's next? In response to this text Alexander Rogers made our point of view.
Both materials we offer to discuss calmly and to the point.
First, Donbass without Nazi junta - is is aleady huge achivement. Secondly, there are a bunch
of plans about how to proceed. And I really like these plans. There is something that does not exist
in Ukraine 23 - years of independence.
And Yes, Russia will help. Already helps - humanitarian aid, accommodation of refugees, ideas
and projects. Jealous? Ukraine has no brothers anymore. She rejected them herself. Donbass and Luganst
still have.
Republic, as tells us the dictionary, is the "Republic" is public property. That is, the oligarchs
in this area will be eliminated. that's already decided. Unlike Ukraine, which the oligarchs of
feudalism degrade in frankly slave system
About peace making activity DND/LNR we do not know much because it is a war. And every step that
becomes known to the junta, instantly met fierce opposition on her part. So a while you will be
underingfrmed.
But what does not exist in nature and is just an product of your imagination are European values
and "peace initiatives" by junta leader Poroshenko.
Sorry, but nonsense about that people who gave thier life to stop junta advance in the area "don't
matter" I won't even comment. They do affect and due to them Ukrainian army with all the oligarch-financed
death squads can's advance into the territory. And what is "obvious" to you is probably the result
viewing Ukrainian TV for way too long.
What Russia will and what she will not do is also can't be decided by you in advance for them.
Some of your ideas about Russia future behaviour are really has been taken from air. I was sitting
for a week in Moscow, communicated with officials, and I frankly can't predict how Russia will behave
(and partly because to disclose plans in war is stupid). And someone named Grasov claims that he
knows. Funny.
Moreover there are a number of false propositions, made by Mr. Grasov, from which makes a number
of unavoidably false conclusions.
Donbass will not be part of Ukraine, it is obvious. The junta will not be able to seize it by
force, and he voluntarily after all bombings and deaths it will never return.
And there is no big advantages int he return in any case as Ukraine will soon turn into the territory
of total chaos and poverty. this process already started. It will happens without any ATO - exclusively
due to the idiotic actions of American puppets, which Ukrainians call their government.
Kiev is not ready to make concessions. If junta was eady - it had all the possibilities
for negotiations. Kiev (or rather, Washington that stand behind it) wants to continue the
massacre, organize filtration camps, mass resettlement of refugees from Donbass to other "pacified"
regions (unclear, however, where as there is no undeveloped spaces like Siberia in Ukraine), and
institute other reprisals.
You want to live in one country with the mass murderers of Odessa and Mariupol? Are you ready
to obey those who gave the orders to bomb the Donetsk and Lugansk? Like millions of others, I am
not ready. If you want and ready - suitcase, railway station, and hello Ternopil. Be happy.
The only way out is to fight back, and only then to begin to restore the national economy. How
did our ancestors in 1941-45. But you offer to surrender to Hitler in the hope that he will destroy
in concentration camps not all? Go to hell.
All, actively supporting the self-proclaimed Republic, from real fighters in the trenches to
the fighters of sofa's, I always want to ask one question. I sometimes ask in the social sites,
but get in return only expectives, or a long discussion about the bright future of "Donbass without
junta". and I still do not give a clear answer to this question, although this os a prencipal
quation for the acceing the situation.
I would formulate it in a very simple way: "What's next?". What is the future of the civil
war that took place in the South-East?
The most popular answer is as folloing - Donbass separates from the Ukraine, and will be
a -- the word "state" do not dare to say even the most ardent supporters DND/LNR. Instead, the use
words like "Federation" and "Confederation", with the constant refrain of "Russia will help us".
And now offer a sober look at the situation. What is the "Republic" and in General, what is administrative-territorial
entity? The three letter abbreviation? Couple seized administrative buildings? Giving an interview
by self-proclamed leaders? No. It, first of all, the administrative apparatus. A certain number
of people, has assumed full responsibility for the situation in the region, which have competence
and relies on the support, or at least the consent of the people. These people manage social, economic,
military, etc. processes, occurring in the territory.
Than run the leaders of the breakaway republics? How is organized the work of the fiscal authorities,
the Minister of taxes and fees DND? What does the Minister of coal industry of the aforesaid Republic?
And in General, at least one of the Donetsk mines know about its existence? How long has the Minister
of fuel and energy DND been at some energogenerating object of the region? Who are these people?
Where did they come from? Can they influence the situation? What enterprised they can manage?
Some may say it took a little time, and that is war. Yes, little time has passed, and the war
goes on. But can someone explain why, for a fairly extensive information about the military actions
of the militias, we still don't know anything about "civilian component" activities DND/LNR? I think
the answer to this question is obvious - this activity simply do not exist in nature.
The situation is absurd - on the one hand, in the Donbass region continue to function Ukrainian
authorities. These structures at least, adjusted for military action, continue to provide social
benefits, the functioning of communal infrastructure, utilities and government agencies, educational
institutions, etc. On the other hand, there is a parallel structure of the handful of people who
wanted to assign themselves to some non-existent position (by the way, who and how them somewhere
chose?), which does not affect anything else. Moreover, it is already obvious that they have no
influence even on the actions of the militia - judging by the statements Girkin, he acts at his
own risk, and does not take into account the leadership of self-proclamed republic. Apparently,
the same applies to other warlords operating in the South-East on the side of separatists.
In General, already everything, it seems, should be obvious that the self-proclaimed Republic
not wealthy by any means, their leaders are capable only on loud statements. Naturally, this failure
is visible not only here, but in the Kremlin, on help of which people put all hope. And the reaction
of the Kremlin is quite understandable. There is also understand that there is in Donetsk and Lugansk
there is no people or organizations who are able truly take responsibility for the situation, make
at least the first steps to establish control over the territory. Pro-Russian forces were not prepared
to do that institutionally year ago, and remained in the same stage. All that has changed in this
sense - there are a couple of dozens of self applinted people in best traditions of Maidan.
But suppose that the authorities DND/LNR has the abilities of Lenin, Krasin and Molotov,
i.e. people with a will, intellect and influence in order to take control of the territory of seven
million citizens. Could these republics - individually or jointly - as something to survive, not
to mention achieve some prosperity? The answer is a categorical " no. Donbass is not Abkhazia or
Transdnestria. Powerful industrial region with millions of inhabitants are connected to Ukraine
by thousands of links - energy, infrastructure, financial, management.
Of course, these relations can be cut off. Moreover, there is the precedent of the Crimea. But
it Crimean precedent has shown that to break ties needed one factor, without which all the discussion
became meaningless. Of course, this factor is Russia. In case such tectonic changes right
side, strong side, who will assume the compensation break ties with the former metropolis. The party,
which will ensure uninterrupted power supply, payments to state employees and pensions, quickly,
avoiding collapse, reformats the work of law enforcement agencies and General public institutions,
etc.
In the case of DND/LNR Russia is not going to do this. There are a lot of geopolitical and economic
reasons, the description of which would take up too much space. But to prove this fact suggest to
do a little test was just to mention one statement of Putin, Lavrov or someone from the Kremlin
power circle, where he questioned the fact that the region is the territory of Ukraine. When one
of them claimed that in the future, perhaps their Department? It seems they constantly claim the
opposite.
And even if we assume that it is all a kind of stratagem, then you should pay attention to another
interesting fact is, Putin and his associates in their speeches carefully avoided the titles "people's
republics", i.e. even unofficially, their existence is not recognized and generally conveniently
ignored. Hardly such an attitude may precede the annexation, or any official aid.
So what's next? The self-proclaimed Republic in fact do not exist or exist exclusively as the
product of the imagination of their "Ministers". Putin will not come for help and will not bring
the order...
One scenario reamains - Donbass remains as a part of Ukraine, whether you like it or not.
In what form? this is a very interesting question. But this raises another question - do the losses
on both sides of the conflict, victims among the civilian population, destroyed by bombs infrastructure
facilities and residential buildings influence the scope of authority of Donbass? Will the additional
corpses of children and "two hundredth" be a valid argument in the dispute for the redistribution
of power? Even if someone believes that Yes, I would suggest that its's time to think about the
price of the the issues and to measure the "costs" to the result. Because death is the highest price
a person can pay for idea. And who do not believe that, let him try to explain a mother whose child
was torn apart by a bomb that his life was given for increasing of the part of the income tax which
should remaine in the region.
Summing up, we need to ask one more question - for what militias are now fighting? Power factor
already is on the table, Kiev is scared as hell and is ready to make concessions. For achiving this
we whould take the hat off and bow low to the courage of the militia fighters. Donbass has shown
that it cannot be ignored, and it can stand tough.
But do we need additional corpses now? And they are coming. And not even because Kiev is ruled
by a bloodthirsty vampire. Just because of Kiev, in the case of a categorical unwillingness of the
leaders of the militia leaders of the self-proclaimed republics to take the compromize offered will
continued the war and killings. Abd it does not make sense to leave millions of people of self-proclamed
republics on the mercy of warlords, as suggested by some, because Russia clearly does not
wnat to intervene in the situation does not want - short of serious humanitarian disaster -- which
ultimately will be much worse than any rule by the "junta".
And if there is no desire to negotiate not, all what remains is to fight. How Kyiv junta is doing
this is a different question and, in author opinion, some, if not all, but many commanders of ATU
should undergo military tribunal. But even the most professional and careful cleaning of the territory
will always lead to civilian casualties. So what's next?
May be it is high time to start looking for ways out of the situation, instead of killing each
other, realizing geopolitical plans gentlemen who are thousands of miles away?
Devastation: Victims stand outside a burning house in the village of Nikolayevka in Lugansk
in the aftermath of a mortar attack which left a Ukrainian border guard dead
Trail of destruction: A woman fleas her home in Russia after being set alight by Hitler's
forces in 1943
Ukraine's border guards service says a serviceman was killed and eight were wounded when
a post on the border with Russia came under heavy mortar attack.
In a statement, the service says the attack took place before dawn Wednesday at the Novoazovsk
post in the southeastern part of the Donetsk region. Donetsk is one of two eastern regions where
Ukrainian forces are fighting pro-Russia separatists.
A 10-day unilateral cease-fire by the Ukrainian side expired late Monday after separatists
rejected calls to lay down their weapons.
Border posts have become key positions, as Ukraine claims the rebels are receiving support
and reinforcements from Russia.
It is similar to the strategy used by the Germans in 1941 during Operation Barbossa, the
offensive which began a three-year military campaign on the Eastern Front.
Homes in the region, which was part of the USSR at the time, were attacked first from the
air by the Luftwaffe and then by ground troops.
Pictures taken at the time show swathes of villages covered in flames.
This week, Ukraine says it retook control of one border post from rebels. The guards service
said Wednesday the insurgents had mined the post with explosives.
In the wake of the new attacks, foreign ministers from Russia, Ukraine, Germany and France
have also agreed on series of steps for a resumption of the cease-fire.
Escape: A helpless man keeps his dog on a leash as his home burns in the background in Lugansk
Aerial warfare: This home, captured in 1941, would have been hit during an air raid during the
three-year offensive on the Eastern Front
Landmark: A local resident sits near a shell crater following an air strike carried out by Ukrainian
armed forces on Stanitsa Luganskaya in Lugansk, Ukraine
Ground forces: A German soldier looks over a home engulfed in flames in 1942 as part of a German
campaign to destroy homes by setting them on fire
Aftermath: Debris surrounds a burning house in Stanitsa Luganskaya, a village in Lugansk, which
was targeted by shells
Scene: A woman grabs onto a metal fence as a house in Lugansk, Ukraine, burns in the background
Today, Ukraine is continuing its 'massive artillery and air offensive' against rebels in
Donetsk and Lugansk regions amid unconfirmed claims of heavy casualties among insurgents.
But separatists have already claimed to have shot down a Sukhoi Su-27 over Luganskaya village
in Lugansk region.
Now it is clear the Poroshenko is a hostage of war party. And that's the logical end of path from
EuroMaidan to EuroAnschluss. EuroMaidan ended and civil war started.
Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko – by thumbing his nose at the leaders of Russia, Germany
and France as they repeatedly appealed to him to renew the fragile ceasefire in eastern Ukraine
– has left himself and his U.S. patrons isolated, though that's not the version of the story that
you'll read in the mainstream U.S. press.
But the reality is that an unusual flurry of high-level conference calls last weekend from key
European capitals failed to dissuade Poroshenko from launching major attacks on opposition forces
in eastern Ukraine. Washington was alone in voicing support for Poroshenko's decision, with a State
Department spokeswoman saying "he has a right to defend his country."
As Ukrainian air and artillery strikes increased on Tuesday, so did diplomatic activity among
the Europeans with the U.S. playing no discernible role in the peace efforts. There was no sign,
for example, that Secretary of State John Kerry was invited to a hastily called meeting in Berlin
on Wednesday involving the foreign ministers of Germany (Frank-Walter Steinmeier), France (Laurent
Fabius), Russia (Sergey Lavrov), and newly appointed Ukrainian Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin.
This marginalization of the U.S. is a consequence of a well-founded suspicion that Poroshenko's
fateful decision to "attack" came with Washington's encouragement. The continued provocative
behavior of Secretary Kerry, Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs Victoria Nuland and
other U.S. hardliners comes despite the fact that Russian President Vladimir Putin still holds the
high cards in this regional standoff.
Putin has at his disposal a range of alternatives short of sending in tanks to protect the ethnic
Russians of eastern Ukraine, many of whom had voted for President Viktor Yanukovych who was ousted
in February by violent protests. The uprising was led by western Ukrainians demanding closer
ties to Europe but was turned into a "regime change" on Feb. 22 through a putsch spearheaded by
neo-Nazi militias contemptuous of the ethnic Russians living in the east and south.
Yanukovych's ouster was strongly encouraged by Nuland, who handpicked Arseniy Yatsenyuk to be
the leader of the interim government, while at least four ministries were awarded to the neo-Nazis,
including the office of national security, in recognition of their key role in the final attacks
that forced Yanukovych and his officials to flee for their lives.
Though hailed as "legitimate" by the U.S. State Department, the coup regime was rejected by many
ethnic Russians in eastern and southern Ukraine. In Crimea, the population voted overwhelmingly
to secede from Ukraine and rejoin Russia, a development that U.S. officials and the dutiful mainstream
media characterized as a Russian "invasion."
Similarly, in the east, in the so-called Donbass region, ethnic Russians rose up and asserted
their independence from the Kiev regime, which then deemed them "terrorists" and launched an "antiterrorist"
campaign that incorporated some of the neo-Nazi militias as National Guard units deployed as shock
troops to crush the uprising. Several bloody massacres of ethnic Russians followed in Odessa and
other cities.
In May, the election of Poroshenko – in balloting mostly conducted in western and central Ukraine
– held out some hope for a negotiated settlement with guarantees to respect the ethnic Russian population
and greater autonomy granted to the eastern regions. However, Poroshenko had trouble getting control
of his hardliners and he refused to negotiate directly with the rebels, leading to the failure of
a shaky ceasefire.
A Fateful Decision
While the focus over recent days has been on Poroshenko's decision to end the ceasefire and go
on the offensive, Putin has continued to rely on diplomacy as his primary tool, especially with
European officials fearful of the economic consequences of a full-scale confrontation between Russia
and the West. Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov has made considerable headway in getting at least
Berlin and Paris to join Moscow in trying to restrain Washington in its apparent eagerness to stoke
the fires in Ukraine.
Speaking on Russian TV on Saturday, Lavrov said, "Peace within the warring country [Ukraine]
would be more likely if negotiations were left to Russia and Europe," adding, "Our American colleagues
… according to a lot of evidence, still favor pushing the Ukrainian leadership towards the path
of confrontation."
That evidence is increasingly evident to Europeans. What is new is their apparent willingness
to slip softly out of their accustomed lockstep subservience to the U.S. in such matters.
Washington is losing support elsewhere in Europe as well. Last Thursday, Kerry declared it "critical
for Russia to show in the next hours, literally, that it is moving to help disarm the separatists,"
and on Friday the European Union leaders set a Monday deadline for Russia to take a series of steps
to avoid further sanctions.
Alas, Monday showed the Europeans putting off any action for at least another week. This delay
has driven the editors of the neocon flagship Washington Post to distraction; in Wednesday's edition
they pouted that such lack of resolve amounts to "craven surrender" to "Russian aggression."
Putin, meanwhile, is maintaining a determined coolness in his public remarks. In a major speech
on Tuesday, he noted, in a more-in-sorrow-than-in-anger tone:
"Unfortunately, President Poroshenko has resolved to resume military action, and we failed –
when I say 'we,' I mean my colleagues in Europe and myself – we failed to convince him that the
road to a secure, stable, and inviolable peace cannot lie through war. … Mr. Poroshenko had not
been directly linked to the orders to begin military action, and only now did he take full responsibility,
and not only military, but political as well, which is much more important.
"We also failed to agree to make public a statement approved by the foreign ministers of Germany,
France, Russia and Ukraine on the need to maintain peace and search for mutually acceptable solutions."
Focus on Europe
Putin reminded his audience of Russian ambassadors that "Europe is our natural and most significant
trade and economic partner." Adding a gentle reminder about Europe's dependence on natural gas from
Russia, Putin noted that Moscow had developed a reputation as a "reliable supplier of energy resources."
He also explained why Russia has put Ukraine on a pre-payment system for the delivery of natural
gas, noting that Kiev had not paid its bill for several months.
Putin also took a dig at economic "blackmail" in referring to "the pressure our American partners
are putting on France to force it not to supply Mistrals [helicopter carrier ships] to Russia."
Russia bought two Mistral-class ships from France for $1.6 billion in what was Moscow's first major
foreign arms purchase since the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Appearing on French TV last month, Putin said, "We expect our French partners to fulfill their
contractual obligations" and held out the prospect of future orders, an important enticement given
France's struggling economy.
Toward the end of his speech Putin also drew attention to the spread of "radical, neo-Nazi" elements
not only in the fledgling states of the former USSR, "but also in Europe as a whole." He warned
that "social contradictions … can be a breeding ground for … the growth of extremism."
Putin added that even in seemingly stable countries ethnic and social contradictions can suddenly
escalate and become ripe for external players "to seek illegitimate, non-democratic regime change,
with all the ensuing negative consequences."
Putin seems to be challenging the Germans and French, in particular, who have had direct experience
living under fascism (and who now have their own home-bred fascists to deal with), to decide whether
they really wish to acquiesce in the brutal suppression of southeastern Ukrainians with the help
of admirers of the late Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera and other Ukrainian fascists who helped
Hitler cleanse Ukraine of Jewish and Russian "vermin."
There is serious question as to whether Poroshenko can now rein in these Frankenstein extremists
even if he seriously tried to do so. The ultra-nationalists and other hardliners in western Ukraine
have made it clear to Poroshenko that they expect him to fulfill his promises about rapidly crushing
the eastern Ukrainian uprising.
Meanwhile, the neocon-dominated Western mainstream media has consistently downplayed the role
of fascists and neo-Nazis in the Putsch of Feb. 22, in the subsequent violence in other key cities
like Odessa, and now in southeastern Ukraine. Mentioning Ukraine's "brown shirts" destroys the U.S.
media's preferred narrative of Washington-backed "white hats" vs. Moscow-backed "black hats."
The Russians, of course, have their own violent history with fascists and seem intent on waking
other Europeans to the dangers – with the coup in Kiev a very recent reminder. Professor Stephen
F. Cohen of New York University provides an excellent wrap-up of the evidence on this issue in a
new article, "The
Silence of American Hawks About Kiev's Atrocities."
Taking the Ukrainian Army Seriously
Nastupat is a strong word in Ukrainian and Russian. It means "attack" – and Poroshenko hit the
word hard in
announcing he had ordered his forces to "attack and free our lands." He seemed intent not only
on snubbing his peace-seeking telephone partners from last weekend, but also on channeling John
Kerry's hawkish buddy John McCain.
There were even hints of Bandera's old attitude about ethnically purifying Ukraine in Poroshenko's
warning that Kiev's new attack would rid Ukraine of "parasites." The Ukrainian defense ministry
quickly announced the launching of attacks "from the air and land," and the violence has escalated
sharply.
It struck me, though, as I watched the short clip from Reuters that the Washington Post and Huffington
Post ran before the footage of Poroshenko's solemn "nastupat'" announcement, that the segment did
nothing to burnish the image of the Ukrainian troops he is sending off to battle.
The clip shows a ragged line of soldiers applauding two comrades as each approaches the corpulent,
fatigue-clad, Poroshenko for an award that looks like a small box of chocolates – presumably from
Poroshenko's own candy factory.
The choreography was not the best. Nor has been the performance of Ukrainian troops sent to the
east so far. But it would be far too easy to underestimate the kinds of casualties that elite Ukrainian
units are capable of inflicting on lightly armed opponents – not to mention the highly trained Right
Sektor and other fascists. A bloodbath may be in the offing.
Will Good Sense Prevail?
In his speech on Tuesday, Putin expressed the hope that "pragmatism will eventually prevail."
He tucked in one short paragraph relating directly to Russia's relations with the U.S., stating
merely, "We are not going to shut down our relationship with the United States," while conceding
that relations "are not in good shape" and blaming Washington for ignoring Russia's "legitimate
interests."
And there is some reason to hope that, as the foreign ministers of Germany, France, Russia and
Ukraine gather in Berlin, they will be able to reinstate the ceasefire and move the conflict off
the battlefield and onto the negotiating table.
If Poroshenko chooses the path of bloodshed, however, Putin will react strongly. Russia can
be counted on to supply arms to those under air and artillery attack from the Ukrainian military.
If this proves to be not enough support, Moscow may decide to do even more, possibly adopting a
favorite American strategy of declaring a "no-fly zone" and shooting down attacking aircraft.
But any overt or even covert Russian government assistance to the rebels would, in turn, be sure
to add fuel to the fiery hysteria in Official Washington about "Russian aggression." There would
be demands on President Barack Obama to retaliate. Who knows where this madness would end?
In the first part of his Tuesday speech, Putin was upfront about the possibility of a Russian
intervention to stop any Ukrainian military slaughter of ethnic Russians. He said he "would
like to make clear" to all that Moscow might feel compelled to protect "Russians and Russian-speaking
citizens of the Ukraine. … I am referring to those people who consider themselves part of the broad
Russian community; they may not necessarily be ethnic Russians, but they consider themselves Russian
people."
Putin said, "This country will continue to actively defend the rights of Russians, our compatriots
abroad, using the entire range of available means – from political and economic to the right to
self-defense envisaged by international humanitarian law."
Putin's reference to "international humanitarian law" sounds very much like the "Responsibility
to Protect" so favored by some of President Obama's foreign policy advisers, though apparently not
when the people doing the killing are being supported by the U.S. government.
If an even more dangerous crisis is to be averted, the Russian leader's words need to be taken
seriously. To stanch bloodletting in eastern Ukraine and to protect those on the receiving end of
Poroshenko-authorized attacks, I would not expect Putin to let himself be mouse-trapped into
invading Ukraine – at least not until he had exhausted all other alternatives.
More likely, he would impose a no-fly zone in an attempt to shield the opposition in the east
and save it from being decimated. But that itself could represent a dangerous escalation. Poroshenko
and his supporters should realize that such matters can quickly get out of hand. Putin has his own
tough-guy John McCains to deal with.
Someone might remind Poroshenko of the embarrassingly bloody nose that the Russians gave
Georgia's then-President Mikheil Saakashvili in August 2008 when he sent Georgian forces to attack
the city of Tskhinvali in South Ossetia. Moscow justified its military retaliation as necessary
to prevent the killing of Russians as well as the Ossetians in the area.
Ultimately, President George W. Bush and then-Republican presidential candidate John McCain,
who had encouraged Saakashvili's adventurism, were powerless to protect him.
Ray McGovern works with Tell the Word, a publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour
in inner-city Washington. He came to Washington over 50 years ago and worked as a CIA analyst under
seven Presidents, one less than Gates. Ray now serves on the Steering Group of Veteran Intelligence
Professionals for Sanity (VIPS).
The times are not chosen, they live and die... sad but true - over Ukrainians worst comes to
pass, from the point of view peresechnoe Chinese curse "May you live in an epoch of change!" And
from the understanding of the tragedy of what is happening and sad prospects of our future becomes
sad and scary. But recently we took offense to "...Schaub you live on one salary." But I'm afraid
for many of my compatriots last remark will soon be no longer a curse, and a good wish, as even
one meager salary or pension will receive not all.
But I would like to talk not so much about hit us troubles, but about the concepts of good and
evil. Or rather the absence of these concepts is in the coordinate system of real politics, or realpolitik,
as they like to say refined intellectuals. The essence of this term is quite simple - the refusal
ideological or moral principles in the formation of the political course of the state, i.e. the
formation of specific decisions of the responsible person come only from considerations of the benefits
and practicalities. That is, proceed from the current REALITY.
Most clearly and openly the principles of Realpolitik voiced Nicolo Machiavelli's famous work
"the Prince" (1532 year). In this small volume, the booklet beginner medieval scientist Kolya Machiavelli
first voiced the simple truth that knew all these sovereigns to speak and promise it what you want
to hear the elite and citizens (voters), and act only as PROFITABLE at the moment. The responsibility
for discrepancy between words and actions need to knock on some third party.
For almost partisi years from the first edition, numerous critics have branded comrade Machiavelli
as fine cynic, but the book has not lost its relevance to our time, and is a desktop manual not
only for the bloody tyrants type of Stalin, but also quite a democratic leaders. However, the latter
for conspiracy have carefully hidden in this book from prying eyes, so for them it is not a desktop,
but rather "hidden" guide to action. But still - guide. And differently it's impossible for one
very good reason - the real political life does not look like a glamorous picture of the TV as itself
is pure, iron barrel, in which throw a dozen accidents rats and wait: that rat ate all the rest,
and the king. The only bad thing is after this diet is nothing else but their own kind, such a thing
to eat is simply not be able, as is changing its nature.
It is difficult to judge democratic leaders for their carnivorous tendencies - naive idealists
in the system Realpolitik not survive and, more specifically, that they have no chances to get to
the top of the food chain - they "eat" on the way up more unscrupulous fellow. If by some twist
of fate, the man breaks in the first row, then he lives, normally bright, but not for long: let's
recollect even the Russian Emperor Paul I, or American presidents Lincoln and Kennedy.
The same principle is applied in relations between States: policies and rulers can, with honest
eyes to broadcast anything and proudly beat a heel hairy chest (this is their hard momentous), but
the basis of government decisions will always be someone specific BENEFIT. As a rule, elisariev
the country.
And if the state is not received in accordance with the principles of Realpolitik, i.e. does not
have its own strategic purposes and does not seek its own benefit (for example, due to the fact
that manages a country comprador elite itself is controlled by foreign forces in others ' interests),
this country will be exactly as long as it will benefit the surrounding real players. And the funny
thing is that rate in their game is exactly this country - its territory, resources, markets, and
other pleasures of life. That is, of the subject (actor) international policy, a country becomes
an object, in this case someone's dinner. And the fate of the population of a country, as you know,
absolutely no don't care, because the neighbors look at it again from the position of Realpolitik,
and in this system of coordinates sentiments completely irrelevant - it is like to feel sorry pawns
and knights, which "killed" during a chess game. And what to feel sorry for the people who failed
to form the elite are able to create a state with a clear their own purposes and to protect its
territory and sovereignty?
The question is whether the described phenomenon evil, totally inappropriate. Real politics THERE
is a sort of earth's gravity: it can be a burden, but that's not reckon with him is impossible.
If someone thinks that the earth's gravity can be ignored and it is easy to overcome the ideological
spells can do simple and striking experiment with a loud shout, "Glory to Ukraine!", or "Glory to
the CPSU!" (depending on the beliefs) to signout from the window above and for all rid surrounding
world from its own folly. The analogy with the policy of direct - one who takes quite inadequate
political decisions and rushing against the trend (gravitation) broken to death (removed from power),
or gets a bullet (as a variant of the loop). And well if it concerns only politicians - sometimes
because of their ambitions or inadequate solutions for decades suffer the Nations which these policies
are managed. Let us recall the possessed Adolf and for many years lowered below the floor Germany.
Fortunately for the peoples of our long-suffering planet, clinical idiots in the higher echelons
of power are rare - most adequate evidence, even if outwardly and look like complete assholes. And
if we do not understand the meaning of those or other political movements, it does not mean that
commit them people are stupid, but we often do not see or do not understand the motives of their
actions.
But in this place it is necessary to stop more in detail. The thing is that it only SEEMS to
us that the state, politicians and rulers of the States are free in their actions. In fact, in every
situation there are only two or three POSSIBLE variants of the solution, not more. A great politician
of the 19th century, Otto von Bismarck, called by his contemporaries "iron Chancellor", and called
the policy: "the art of the possible".
And really - space there is almost no: policy has to operate and survive in extremely difficult
and adverse conditions - it is necessary to take into account the thousands of external and internal
factors, as well as their own and other interests that may somehow affect the situation. Step right
up, step to the left - always run into someone's ass. And if something did not consider, and your
decision is wrong - irresistible force, abruptly terrestrial gravity, gently put you on dodescu,
and along with your relatives, friends, believed you, comrades and friends, as you and your whole
nation and the state, which you head. Most political games remind me of acrobatic feats performed
on the razor blades, mounted above a bottomless abyss. Moreover, during the presentation of the
contractor eyes closed and his hands tied, and he needs a fun and convincing smile stupid crowd,
which allowed him this thing a little jump. As you know, in a position not much portuguesse - go
only ahead, very precisely and smoothly fingering legs, and if in the wrong direction will move
or fall, or cut yourself.
Well, now let's try to analyze our recent Ukrainian history from the height of the newfound understanding
of the underlying essence of any political processes. That is, let us try to understand what happened
in Ukraine in fact, what was gained by it, who benefits, what is happening now, and next time, you
may be able to formulate and what is beneficial for us, ie people (or if you want to population).
But first you must understand and accept some simple logical statements, rejecting any ideological
cliches and even national pride - we're from the point of view of Realpolitik talk.
First, we need exactly yourself to understand that Ukraine was never a subject, that is equal
participant in international relations. For one simple reason - we elite flawed: the anti-popular,
kleptocratic and comprador, tailored to serve foreign interests, for it allow her to steal a little
and with comfort to spend stolen abroad on yourself with loved ones, their wives, children, mistresses,
etc. of the People for many years calmly looks at it, claps her eyes sleepily and muffled grunting.
Second, p. 1 implies that in this territory no one EVER going to build an independent sovereign
state is simply NO one to do it (who doesn't agree with this statement - I'm in the Studio surnames
and names of the heroes). The idea of our elite simpler: nazarovi several billion, to prepare a
safe area and to escape. That is why no one was developed and did not build appropriate government
institutions - we have a lot that just any normal state, such as efficient army (by the way, beggar
in Egypt, the people is hungry, but the army is, and it is quite real military force). This despite
the fact that after the collapse of the USSR in Ukraine was located the biggest in Europe army grouping,
armed and equipped by the standards of wartime, the strongest in the region Navy, nuclear weapons
and their means of delivery, including strategic aviation and the Intercontinental ballistic missile,
had the most powerful military industry, its science, and much more. All this was, and now natute,
and no one knows exactly what happened, though all guess. We even normal punitive organs of the
no - look at our pitiful security service and the interior Ministry, unable to resist or Maidan
or South-East "separatism", and compare with monsters like the FBI or the FSB, or even with Mossad,
if confuse dimensions.
Thirdly: as a full-fledged state in Ukraine did not build, own interests not have accepted other
people, to protect themselves unable - our territory in the coordinates Realpolitik considered global
players as legitimate mining - who had, he ate.
Offended absolutely no one - we are all together we have built this world! It is we ourselves
were not able to organize normal viable state, formulate and defend their own national interests!
Look at little poor but proud Syria - their whole Western world together with al-Qaeda and the oil
sheikhs few years wets the full program, and they are kept, and not going to give up - moreover,
slowly win. Now compare with us still and fight no one started, and the three richest region already
dissolved in the morning mist themselves from us escaped. And who is to blame Putin? Merkel? Pula
with Barroso? Or we ourselves, with our inability to state-building?
Generally, when I hear the cries of type - Butler rascal and schizophrenic, or Babami - bibizyana
with a grenade, I simultaneously funny and sad from human stupidity! In fact, these characters are
(very important characters who would argue - just a national policy on an international scale, serving
the interests of the ruling class of their countries, driven into the framework of international
commitments and domestic legislation in force in conditions of severe necessity, dictated by the
real internal and international situation, as well as the interests of their States and controlling
their ruling classes. In their activity in General, there is almost nothing personal, It's just
business, baby!". More precisely, the real policy.
Guys, come on vilette a moment out of their cozy mink and take a look around! So how do you like?..
Welcome to the brutal real world! We all got on alien Safari, where we consider as a game, since
we did not want and could not become the hunters. What you want is people being carnivores like
to eat the meat, as well as individual countries and their elite (on a different course. To make
this meat in the process of drinking is not beating in the wind and does not interfere with the
digestive process, it is possible to tell anything about vegetarian essence of world capitalism,
invisible and fluffy hand of the market, the rights of men and sexual minorities (scientific - gays),
about international law and the right of Nations to self-determination, cheap gas, the use of urine
therapy and the European Association (or entry to the Customs Union), the visa-free regime and the
de and the PE: blah, blah, blah. However, the basis of all political decisions sovereign players
will always lie NOT YOURS, and the BENEFIT, and, strange as it may seem harsh NECESSITY.
Now let's try to figure out who actually created the current Ukrainian chaos. To think we will
be using this almost forgotten and seldom applied in our country is the tool of logic, but will
come from the ancient principle Latin rights Is fecit, qui prodest " " - did the one who benefits.
Defining the beneficiary, the beneficiary will find and initiator.
For a start, let's try to understand the General morphological features mess called the Maidan,
who finished off a fuckin rudiments of Ukrainian statehood and sovereignty.
First, this mess was not spontaneous, but clearly man-made and well-organized. Remember oligarchic
regime a year ago - he seemed to be unshakable. Leadership in some regions was replaced Donetsk
on two or three levels (the head of the organization, heads of departments, heads of departments).
The only criterion for the designation of the place of birth and loyalty to the regime, all tied
corruption and fear. The financial situation was stable social and political situation stable salaries
and pensions were paid on time political rivals driven under the window, sat there quietly and did
not pithukuli. Remember - just before Maidan trio homegrown opposition tried to organize a promotion
with a loud name "Arise Ukraine!" - And what, someone stood up? Now think of how many times the
Maidan was ready to go home, but every time some "accident" take it to the next level. I don't believe
in such "accidents": Yanukovych's regime deliberately and very correctly "leaked". And did not the
people, because the people are not capable of self-organization - for this you need the organizers
and resources (Yes, the ones, with portraits...) For comparison and understanding can read the story
at least the great French and October revolutions - who organized them and who financed them.
Secondly, the mess is clearly inspired from the outside. This conclusion arises from the analysis
of opportunities of the opposition and its cash institutional, financial and media resources, as
well as the basic level of trust in Ukrainian society to its intractable between leaders: "rabbit"
Seine, the nationalist Tiahnybok and "intellectual" Klitschko. It was too fast they scored the "political
weight", just like broilers on imported anabolics (or maybe the cookies?).
Another important point - financing. The question is who paid for this celebration of life, when
all the financial flows within the country are strictly controlled by the regime? About local oligarchs
very much doubt. That contact Yanukovych deadly knew all the many greyhounds, and quiet too, has
lost property, and someone's freedom and even life. Soaked all - and foes, and his. And besides,
there is another interesting financial stroke: during maidanskaya in Kiev exchangers appeared a
huge number of fresh American notes issued in 2013, which the NBU in the country is not imported
(the Bank of Russia by the way, too) - hence they brought somebody else, and. To do this trick in
a serious volumes by customs possible only with the use of diplomatic mail, so believe me (even
a million dollars a hectare in bra bring impossible).
Thirdly, the Maidan was a clear response to specific decisions of the Ukrainian authorities.
While Yanukovych as an ox to the slaughter lane in eurosocial, progressive European public was ready
to close my eyes for all the crimes of the regime - selective justice (if to call things by their
proper names - political repression and killing of unwanted, for example the same Kushnaryov), wildest
corruption, lawlessness of police raiding in the interests of "family" and much more. No borders
of the European tolerance and tolerance, even sick for the whole spine Yulia "leaked"to plant "wild"
Ukrainians European values (but material valuables for us was not found). But it all until the process
was going in the right direction, but as soon as the direction has changed - Europe miraculously
recovered his SIGHT, and found that mode, damn, it turns out that quite bloody, and still is absolutely
undemocratic, and even in places illegitimate... And the people too worked up as suspicious quickly
- and it doesn't even look like us. For example, three weeks ago a few dozen people in Odessa killed
and burned without trial guilty of not - and do - people corpses removed away from the eyes and
quietly goes to work. Here it is on us, unfortunately, it's more like. And here because of two bruises
HireDate" - and this Gimbel...
And yet - highly suspicious sudden paralysis of the Executive power, which had been strong, cruel
and unscrupulous.
What happened on the Maidan Nezalezhnosti, is ideally placed in the classic scenario of "color"
revolutions, which in the past decade was namerno nashtampovano in different countries and democratic,
and not very. Immediately explain what color revolution differs from the classical - by color revolution
does not change ANYTHING, only muzzle on the TV. Socio-political system remains the same, the oligarchs
are the same, but vary persons who exercise authority, changing the balance of influence of external
players, and the final beneficiaries conducted in such a state policy (it's clear who is the girl
supper, he and dances). For the people, does not change ANYTHING. Here we had two Maidan - and something
has changed?.. We even local political Olympus 15 years no changes no new persons not (though some
people dropped out).
Available color revolution in particular, long hours worked algorithm (by the way, if anyone
wants to learn, in open access there are good books, I recommend starting with Gene sharp). Procedure
like the following: good civil society kako would "of course" organized through social networks
and comes to actions of civil disobedience. This is probably the most crucial moment, for that is
"of course", it should be very long and hard to cook, there must be special, well-trained and motivated
activists, which have many years to educate and feed motivate, and at the right moment - OPA: and
EVERYTHING is "needless".
Further into the script, bad government starts violently wetting accidents demonstrators, and
it is a beautiful TV picture (if it is impossible to take a picture in nature, makes the scenery
and take pictures of the Studio as it was in the channel al-Jazeera when covering the events in
Libya). The picture is transmitted by the maximum number of communication channels, thus forming
the secondary circuit of excitation of people, who are already in large quantities are out on the
streets and demolish "bad" power, establishing "good" and "democratic", although necessarily dictatorship
(legal authorities-then indeed there is no, they tore down). Then the dictatorship election, but
there is a trick - to-date version of democracy winner is the one who organizes elections and the
vote count.
There is one very important thing: at the stage of "demolition" the authorities someone should "disable"
punitive organs, because if you do not, none of the organized civil society will not stand against
organized and armed forces of the state. Demonstrators simply undemocratic "smear" tanks on asphalt,
as Chinese students in Tiananmen square, or shoot them from helicopters, as the Egyptian Muslim
brothers during the anti-Islamist military counter-revolution. And to help it there's nothing you
- as they say, against the state scrap no civil public administration. So the question in whose
hands is a button "off". "he's very important.
As a rule, this question is solved through corrupt officials of relevant agencies, which store
unjustly acquired in Western banks. It will start up until the hour comes with X, then SPECIFIC
to the responsible person receives the signal as follows : "we're going to confiscate the money
of all involved in the bloody regime. Now in order not to fall under the distribution, you are a
friend please Posmotri performing illegal orders of the tyrant, and you, your family and your grandmother
will shut down".
So that is how it was done - and in Egypt, and Tunisia, and Libya, and Syria, and Ukraine too.
With the only difference that Yanukovych tried to prevent the bloody telecasting, and even when
peaceful demonstrators were burned alive "molotovym" his faithful Cerberus, those were silent and
did not shoot at "unarmed" crowd. And the bell at the crucial moment on the need to refrain from
violence in exchange for preservation of the capitals received similar Mr. President personally,
and it was HIS money. So in General it is clear who "rubilnik" knocked - charante wanted and to
eat fish and power save money, but it does not happen: under the terms of the tasks to keep you
could only authority (Oh, didn't read the boy Vitya in childhood classics, Oh, not read). The choice
in this situation was made wrong, not the precepts of Ilyich comrade Machiavelli, so no money, no
power Yanukovych at this point in history is not, and is not expected (about earth's gravity remember?).
And so - does anyone really thinks that one BTR rapid-fire gun of calibre 30mm would not stop
Maidan once and for all, upholstery hunting meganite 3 generations ahead? And that there would be
a couple bezbashennyh thugs on this dirty business? - yeah, I can, especially considering the communication
mode with the criminals. And does anyone think that after that running here would include the NATO
peacekeeping force or sailed democratic aircraft carriers to punish the oppressor? Yeah, right,
aircraft carriers at all tyrants will not save enough (unless of course they have no control over
vast reserves of oil). Out in Egypt, for example, one court decision 700 representatives of "civil
society" was sentenced to death by hanging for "peaceful" the attack on the police station, and
before that soaked "peaceful demonstrators" large-calibre machine guns, and many, by the way, killed
to death. And nothing - someone certainly not satisfied, but you cannot please everyone. But the
rest of Egypt friends, give money, weapons m supply. That's elections in Egypt soon democratic,
in both! And after all recognize the General-President Sisi, Oh recognize.
Interim conclusions - Maidan organized and financed by external forces, the classical scenario
of "color" revolutions, using as the "screen" of the local opposition.
Now let's calculate the possible foreign customer of our mess, having analyzed the interests
of the main players that have the physical ability to do such a thing, i.e. have the resources:
organizational and financial. Actually under suspicion can get four real player, possessing a certain
extent sovereignty and respective capabilities: the US, China, EU, Russia.
China cut off at once - first, far, secondly, it is not their field of interest (no interest
to China resources, and third - this is not a Chinese method. China works differently - buys parts
of the country, i.e. buys the assets involved in the overall infrastructure projects, and invests
in social sphere, and rebuild the Diaspora, in short - leaks.
Now Russia. The main interests of Russia in respect of independent Ukraine were always simple
and straightforward, at least this:
1. No NATO bases on its territory (the non-aligned status)
2. The guarantees of transit of Russian hydrocarbons to Europe
3. Base of the Russian fleet in Sevastopol
AND ALL! Other wishes of the Russian leadership, including Ukraine's accession to the Customs
Union is an option (although important), but the above is a necessity of life, and without observance
of these interests, Russia will quickly lose its geopolitical weight, and in the future - will cease
to exist as a historical subject. So make no mistake, from Ukraine anyone ever refuse will not,
no matter how much muttered malkalne "nikogdanavsegda" - their opinion on the Hamburg account of
real politics in General are not interesting, because at stake is the physical SURVIVAL of the superpowers
in an iron barrel with hungry rats.
Now, if you look at the terms of the agreement, which was signed by Putin and Yanukovych on December
17 of last year, as well as Kharkiv agreement on gas and Sevastopol 2010 it is clear that these
agreements Russia sanatorogo has achieved ALL its economic and political goals, and received massive
bonus in the form of industrial cooperation in the defence industry and high-tech. The only one
who understood and announced in public space, was, strangely enough, ordinary prisoner Kachanovsky
prison, Yulia Tymoshenko, who said that the agreement worse than joining the Customs Union, as tightly
binds Ukraine to Russia (and thus detaches from the EU). Therefore Russia from the list of suspects
exclude Russia Maidan ALREADY had EVERYTHING she needed, and Maidan all of it stripped, and added
headache and very serious charges.
For the morons who believe that Russia is simply sleeps and sees how would it be quick to occupy
Ukraine and raped her in turns, I recommend to take a calculator and calculate: for the salvation
of the Ukrainian economy, in the current year it is necessary to put at least $ 35 billion (excluding
the drop in industrial production, which is in full). The revenues of the Russian budget for 2014
400 billion. $ . Now add the cost of maintaining the occupation army and the occupation administration.
The percentage of the budget count themselves. And most importantly remember: if you drop all sentimentality,
in the framework of Realpolitik Russia from us had only p.p. 1,2,3, and the issue with the base
in Sevastopol today already solved without our consent, and that Russia needs us now at minimum
- the absence of NATO bases and transit of gas. This question can be solved much cheaper and easier
than a full occupation of 45 million of the state in which not everyone is sure to Russia.
Now consider the EU policy that out for climbed to involve Ukraine in its orbit. Of course, Germany
would be very interested to receive Ukrainian market (why it is so important, I already painted
in the previous post), and at the same time be able to destroy a part of the Ukrainian industry,
which produces products for oily Russian market and dumping the basis compete there with European
goods. That is, thus, the EU could expand its presence on the Russian market, too. Who does not
believe that all this was laid down in the Association agreement initially, remember what obligations
regarding compliance with European regulations assumed Ukraine is killing almost all Ukrainian industry,
except mining. Concerning deliveries in EU-Ukrainian cheap raw materials objections never had.
However, the EU's position was a very vulnerable place - in contrast to Russia, Europe was not ready
to pay for Ukraine and to subsidize its economy, because the debt crisis, and why own, if you can
not pay. However, the money were very much needed, otherwise Ukraine is fast and fun to fly out
of the financial pipe in early 2014 (the process is described in detail in the letter №4 "On the
manure and the trade deficit").
The original idea of the European politicians, to pay for the integration of Ukraine was Russia,
together with WTO rules. However, Putin quickly on the fingers explained all about the WTO and about
customs tariffs, and even about the deficit of the Ukrainian trade balance. Explained so clearly
that some people in the West still fingers ache. As it was, we in 2013 seen. Saw and how convulsively
rushed about our former President around the world in search of money to reach at least their re-election
(it was his personal planning horizon). But no one gave, and when Yanukovych arrived in the EU and
firmly put it on your lap - or money, or it will be worse", Caucasoids politely laughed in his face
and gently hinted that problems Indians Sheriff's not worried, as if he needed the money, let him
ask of his people, for example, raising prices for communal services. And usocial to sign anyway,
otherwise it will be worse - to HIM PERSONALLY.
But Yanukovych has already ate a bit, because for him to follow friendly advice Western partners
meant to make a political Hara-Kiri, without waiting for the elections 2015. (what Western partners
like and sought - Yanukovych im pretty bored). But harakiri does not fit into the plans of Yanukovich
- first he didn't know what honor of the samurai, and secondly, seriously expect another five years
to take a walk in pantry and realize the cherished dream of his hungry childhood - to become richer
his countryman, famous all over the Donbass and not only.
So, as living and much needed money offered only one on this planet (not going to happen), Victor
Fedorovich had to accept the proposed terms and quickly change the geopolitical orientation. Although
I guess it much cheaper than it would be to change the sexual orientation and put the confirmation
of this fact on YouTube. It may well be that our two previous convictions President and would have
accepted this procedure, if it's something could change. But he really didn't have a choice at that
moment was very small: or in 2013 with Vova to the Registrar, or in 2015 with Julia to the Prosecutor.
So when Victor Fedorovich finally depetris than he faces the situation, thought for very long, and
the decision was reasonable - instead of the third term on the area chose a second term in Mezhgorye.
And to condemn it especially not for man expressed in such a simple way the highest degree of love.
If someone thinks that Masturbation as a manifestation of love to a more productive, this is only
his opinion - rest assured that personal safety is much more important.
The funny thing is that a couple of years before the events, Viktor Yanukovych was visiting the
then Russian President Medvedev and Prime Minister Putin, who spent the whole day at the show Yanukovych
all the fish in the ponds Novoogarevo and along the way to persuade it to the Customs Union. And
ON VERY favorable terms, both for Ukraine and for Viktor Yanukovych PERSONALLY (including warranties
second term). But inexorable and proud Yanukovych from the height of their own greatness and quite
a considerable growth gave the Kremlin dwarfs the nail, and right in the eyes: - "in short, the
boys! Russia is your business, and Ukraine is my business! Truncated!" (this is a quotation of our
former President from closed, but reliable sources close to the informed). Perhaps if Yanukovych
had the skills of scientific varovania, and understood not only in the business of corruption and
Golden bowls, but also in macro-Economics and geopolitics, his answer would be different, and then
our history would have been very different scenario. But not complicated - as they say: bachili
eyes that vibirali kupovali, hocha Pavilosta...
Now, the development of the events of summer-autumn 2013 clearly proved that the laws of gravity
and Realpolitik still quite objective, and sometimes are even totally frostbitten and inadequate
characters, as though everything excessive presidential labour and stored in the West salvage, Viktor
Fedorovych December 17, 2013. signed with Vladimir Vladimirovich epochal (as many thought) a document
that is in addition to any interesting stuff-Druck for mutual benefits of the Slavic peoples, clearly
sent the European Union in the long erotic journey with traditional garbuza under his arm. So, already
formed tradition of sending EU know on where, clearly shows our Ukrainian national priority, since
Ms. Nuland with its watery American FAK was just a second, though unlike our former President and
said with disarming, male directness.
European bureaucratic leaders were, to put it mildly taken aback by the refusal of Yanukovych
as had not expected such a serious catch from rude and stupid Ukrainian undermine that with the
bear grace put them Fuckers to the entire civilized world. By the way, can someone does not know,
but EU leaders are not elected, but appointed, so the leaders have not democratic and bureaucratic.
And exactly on may 25 of this year there will be elections to the European Parliament, which will
reset the main Euro bureaucrats. And to be in a position oblgases to renewing the employment contract
very uncomfortable, even if you're the janitor uncle Vasya, though the foreign Minister of the EU
Baroness Ashton.
So after a fun feint ears, which spat dear Mr. President of Ukraine in front of the amazed and
slightly kranevska from this unprecedented impudence courage of the world community, on Mr. Yanukovych
in Europe held her VERY deep resentment. Humanly understandable - in the last decade, Europeans
several weaned from the direct simplicity of the Slavs, not once in history who was wiping his dirty
dung chuni about sleek and well-maintained European muzzle. But here, as a sin worse than usual
happened - the service set, knives/forks has ground, napkins have necromania and main course at
the last moment with a joyful grunting skinula with festive table, immediately after slightly hungry
guests sat on the designated places, bared her fangs and have already started to drool and gastric
juice. More and ceremonial cloth smeared finally shorter embarrassing full, not good as it so happened,
not in a European way... (C)
Rephrasing famous Chernomyrdin joke; "No matter what type of the army Junta is trying to build -
she always gets a variation of the SS division "Galicia""
Poroshenko prepares replace the Minister of Defense Koval to head of the state security service
Geletey. Geletey was served in the army, all of his career he was purely a police officer, and on
the ground he worked until 2006, with only a modest rank of the Colonel of militia. The rest biography
is connected with Yushchenko "court" with corresponding sharp rise in titles and awards for cabinet
wars.
The appointment of Galatea does not corresponds to the logic of war with Russia, about which nationalist
scream in Kiev. If you are prepared to fight with the strongest army in the region - then to appoint
a court informer with specific experience is very strange. However, it seems that Geleteya is appointed
for entirely different task -- to purge the ranks.
Army officers and contract servicemen are now leave army in thousands - both independently and as
punishment for refusing to take part in the punitive expedition. Just in Dnepropetrovsk separate
brigade of the airborne forces in late June, reports for dismissal from the ranks filed about 400
people. The loyalty of senior officers also raises strong to the emerging leadership of the emerging
neo-Nazi state.
And more difficult time are coming to Ukraine - even if tomorrow the punitive operation in the East
will end, it won't change the sliding of the country toward a collapse. Oligarch Kolomoisky launched
a large-scale lending to farmers under 40% interest per annum, using the critical situation with
government funding of agriculture. It is clear that such interest is impossible to pay back - it
just means that collected in autumn harvest will be confiscated for the debt and sold abroad at
great prices. The logic of actions by Kolomoisky quite transparent - grain and food become the key
export item after normal trade with Russia is broken.
In such circumstances, the army becomes a tool not so much of external, but of internal policy
along with the established punitive machine of National Guard and territorial death squads. the
only tool that can keep hungry and frozen country in obedience is terror, and all Amy forces became
essentially a police force. In these conditions, the devotion to the regime becomes a critical factor,
so Galatea, having no idea about military service, but perfectly able to shift and to build lines
of loyalty, looks completely suitable candidate for the position in the current moment.
Most likely, punitive expedition in the East solves another task. It serves as a check on the attitudes
and commitment to building of a neo-Nazi state. All the doubters will be dismissed and expelled.
If possible, they can send into frontlines to be destroyed by the fire of separatists militia.
To paraphrase Chernomyrdin, we can say that "No matter what type of the army Junta is trying
to build - she always gets a variation of the SS division "Galicia""
I can't see the screen ... the tears is choking me ... I can't comprehend ... I don't want
to fight ... these is my Brothers and Sisters!!! I am Russian with Ukrainian blood , my families
is near Lugansk ... my hands is shaking ... someone who did it will pay -- God mercy on us! Hold
on Brothers !!! We remember you - we must prevail!!
Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko – by thumbing his nose at the leaders of Russia, Germany
and France as they repeatedly appealed to him to renew the fragile ceasefire in eastern Ukraine
– has left himself and his U.S. patrons isolated, though that's not the version of the story that
you'll read in the mainstream U.S. press.
But the reality is that an unusual flurry of high-level conference calls last weekend from key
European capitals failed to dissuade Poroshenko from launching major attacks on opposition forces
in eastern Ukraine. Washington was alone in voicing support for Poroshenko's decision, with a State
Department spokeswoman saying "he has a right to defend his country."
As Ukrainian air and artillery strikes increased on Tuesday, so did diplomatic activity among
the Europeans with the U.S. playing no discernible role in the peace efforts. There was no sign,
for example, that Secretary of State John Kerry was invited to a hastily called meeting in Berlin
on Wednesday involving the foreign ministers of Germany (Frank-Walter Steinmeier), France (Laurent
Fabius), Russia (Sergey Lavrov), and newly appointed Ukrainian Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin.
This marginalization of the U.S. is a consequence of a well-founded suspicion that Poroshenko's
fateful decision to "attack" came with Washington's encouragement. The continued provocative
behavior of Secretary Kerry, Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs Victoria Nuland and
other U.S. hardliners comes despite the fact that Russian President Vladimir Putin still holds the
high cards in this regional standoff.
Putin has at his disposal a range of alternatives short of sending in tanks to protect the ethnic
Russians of eastern Ukraine, many of whom had voted for President Viktor Yanukovych who was ousted
in February by violent protests. The uprising was led by western Ukrainians demanding closer
ties to Europe but was turned into a "regime change" on Feb. 22 through a putsch spearheaded by
neo-Nazi militias contemptuous of the ethnic Russians living in the east and south.
Yanukovych's ouster was strongly encouraged by Nuland, who handpicked Arseniy Yatsenyuk to be
the leader of the interim government, while at least four ministries were awarded to the neo-Nazis,
including the office of national security, in recognition of their key role in the final attacks
that forced Yanukovych and his officials to flee for their lives.
Though hailed as "legitimate" by the U.S. State Department, the coup regime was rejected by many
ethnic Russians in eastern and southern Ukraine. In Crimea, the population voted overwhelmingly
to secede from Ukraine and rejoin Russia, a development that U.S. officials and the dutiful mainstream
media characterized as a Russian "invasion."
Similarly, in the east, in the so-called Donbass region, ethnic Russians rose up and asserted
their independence from the Kiev regime, which then deemed them "terrorists" and launched an "antiterrorist"
campaign that incorporated some of the neo-Nazi militias as National Guard units deployed as shock
troops to crush the uprising. Several bloody massacres of ethnic Russians followed in Odessa and
other cities.
In May, the election of Poroshenko – in balloting mostly conducted in western and central Ukraine
– held out some hope for a negotiated settlement with guarantees to respect the ethnic Russian population
and greater autonomy granted to the eastern regions. However, Poroshenko had trouble getting control
of his hardliners and he refused to negotiate directly with the rebels, leading to the failure of
a shaky ceasefire.
A Fateful Decision
While the focus over recent days has been on Poroshenko's decision to end the ceasefire and go
on the offensive, Putin has continued to rely on diplomacy as his primary tool, especially with
European officials fearful of the economic consequences of a full-scale confrontation between Russia
and the West. Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov has made considerable headway in getting at least
Berlin and Paris to join Moscow in trying to restrain Washington in its apparent eagerness to stoke
the fires in Ukraine.
Speaking on Russian TV on Saturday, Lavrov said, "Peace within the warring country [Ukraine]
would be more likely if negotiations were left to Russia and Europe," adding, "Our American colleagues
… according to a lot of evidence, still favor pushing the Ukrainian leadership towards the path
of confrontation."
That evidence is increasingly evident to Europeans. What is new is their apparent willingness
to slip softly out of their accustomed lockstep subservience to the U.S. in such matters.
Washington is losing support elsewhere in Europe as well. Last Thursday, Kerry declared it "critical
for Russia to show in the next hours, literally, that it is moving to help disarm the separatists,"
and on Friday the European Union leaders set a Monday deadline for Russia to take a series of steps
to avoid further sanctions.
Alas, Monday showed the Europeans putting off any action for at least another week. This delay
has driven the editors of the neocon flagship Washington Post to distraction; in Wednesday's edition
they pouted that such lack of resolve amounts to "craven surrender" to "Russian aggression."
Putin, meanwhile, is maintaining a determined coolness in his public remarks. In a major speech
on Tuesday, he noted, in a more-in-sorrow-than-in-anger tone:
"Unfortunately, President Poroshenko has resolved to resume military action, and we failed –
when I say 'we,' I mean my colleagues in Europe and myself – we failed to convince him that the
road to a secure, stable, and inviolable peace cannot lie through war. … Mr. Poroshenko had not
been directly linked to the orders to begin military action, and only now did he take full responsibility,
and not only military, but political as well, which is much more important.
"We also failed to agree to make public a statement approved by the foreign ministers of Germany,
France, Russia and Ukraine on the need to maintain peace and search for mutually acceptable solutions."
Focus on Europe
Putin reminded his audience of Russian ambassadors that "Europe is our natural and most significant
trade and economic partner." Adding a gentle reminder about Europe's dependence on natural gas from
Russia, Putin noted that Moscow had developed a reputation as a "reliable supplier of energy resources."
He also explained why Russia has put Ukraine on a pre-payment system for the delivery of natural
gas, noting that Kiev had not paid its bill for several months.
Putin also took a dig at economic "blackmail" in referring to "the pressure our American partners
are putting on France to force it not to supply Mistrals [helicopter carrier ships] to Russia."
Russia bought two Mistral-class ships from France for $1.6 billion in what was Moscow's first major
foreign arms purchase since the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Appearing on French TV last month, Putin said, "We expect our French partners to fulfill their
contractual obligations" and held out the prospect of future orders, an important enticement given
France's struggling economy.
Toward the end of his speech Putin also drew attention to the spread of "radical, neo-Nazi" elements
not only in the fledgling states of the former USSR, "but also in Europe as a whole." He warned
that "social contradictions … can be a breeding ground for … the growth of extremism."
Putin added that even in seemingly stable countries ethnic and social contradictions can suddenly
escalate and become ripe for external players "to seek illegitimate, non-democratic regime change,
with all the ensuing negative consequences."
Putin seems to be challenging the Germans and French, in particular, who have had direct experience
living under fascism (and who now have their own home-bred fascists to deal with), to decide whether
they really wish to acquiesce in the brutal suppression of southeastern Ukrainians with the help
of admirers of the late Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera and other Ukrainian fascists who helped
Hitler cleanse Ukraine of Jewish and Russian "vermin."
There is serious question as to whether Poroshenko can now rein in these Frankenstein extremists
even if he seriously tried to do so. The ultra-nationalists and other hardliners in western Ukraine
have made it clear to Poroshenko that they expect him to fulfill his promises about rapidly crushing
the eastern Ukrainian uprising.
Meanwhile, the neocon-dominated Western mainstream media has consistently downplayed the role
of fascists and neo-Nazis in the Putsch of Feb. 22, in the subsequent violence in other key cities
like Odessa, and now in southeastern Ukraine. Mentioning Ukraine's "brown shirts" destroys the U.S.
media's preferred narrative of Washington-backed "white hats" vs. Moscow-backed "black hats."
The Russians, of course, have their own violent history with fascists and seem intent on waking
other Europeans to the dangers – with the coup in Kiev a very recent reminder. Professor Stephen
F. Cohen of New York University provides an excellent wrap-up of the evidence on this issue in a
new article, "The
Silence of American Hawks About Kiev's Atrocities."
Taking the Ukrainian Army Seriously
Nastupat is a strong word in Ukrainian and Russian. It means "attack" – and Poroshenko hit the
word hard in
announcing he had ordered his forces to "attack and free our lands." He seemed intent not only
on snubbing his peace-seeking telephone partners from last weekend, but also on channeling John
Kerry's hawkish buddy John McCain.
There were even hints of Bandera's old attitude about ethnically purifying Ukraine in Poroshenko's
warning that Kiev's new attack would rid Ukraine of "parasites." The Ukrainian defense ministry
quickly announced the launching of attacks "from the air and land," and the violence has escalated
sharply.
It struck me, though, as I watched the short clip from Reuters that the Washington Post and Huffington
Post ran before the footage of Poroshenko's solemn "nastupat'" announcement, that the segment did
nothing to burnish the image of the Ukrainian troops he is sending off to battle.
The clip shows a ragged line of soldiers applauding two comrades as each approaches the corpulent,
fatigue-clad, Poroshenko for an award that looks like a small box of chocolates – presumably from
Poroshenko's own candy factory.
The choreography was not the best. Nor has been the performance of Ukrainian troops sent to the
east so far. But it would be far too easy to underestimate the kinds of casualties that elite Ukrainian
units are capable of inflicting on lightly armed opponents – not to mention the highly trained Right
Sektor and other fascists. A bloodbath may be in the offing.
Will Good Sense Prevail?
In his speech on Tuesday, Putin expressed the hope that "pragmatism will eventually prevail."
He tucked in one short paragraph relating directly to Russia's relations with the U.S., stating
merely, "We are not going to shut down our relationship with the United States," while conceding
that relations "are not in good shape" and blaming Washington for ignoring Russia's "legitimate
interests."
And there is some reason to hope that, as the foreign ministers of Germany, France, Russia and
Ukraine gather in Berlin, they will be able to reinstate the ceasefire and move the conflict off
the battlefield and onto the negotiating table.
If Poroshenko chooses the path of bloodshed, however, Putin will react strongly. Russia can be
counted on to supply arms to those under air and artillery attack from the Ukrainian military. If
this proves to be not enough support, Moscow may decide to do even more, possibly adopting a favorite
American strategy of declaring a "no-fly zone" and shooting down attacking aircraft.
But any overt or even covert Russian government assistance to the rebels would, in turn, be sure
to add fuel to the fiery hysteria in Official Washington about "Russian aggression." There would
be demands on President Barack Obama to retaliate. Who knows where this madness would end?
In the first part of his Tuesday speech, Putin was upfront about the possibility of a Russian
intervention to stop any Ukrainian military slaughter of ethnic Russians. He said he "would
like to make clear" to all that Moscow might feel compelled to protect "Russians and Russian-speaking
citizens of the Ukraine. … I am referring to those people who consider themselves part of the broad
Russian community; they may not necessarily be ethnic Russians, but they consider themselves Russian
people."
Putin said, "This country will continue to actively defend the rights of Russians, our compatriots
abroad, using the entire range of available means – from political and economic to the right to
self-defense envisaged by international humanitarian law."
Putin's reference to "international humanitarian law" sounds very much like the "Responsibility
to Protect" so favored by some of President Obama's foreign policy advisers, though apparently not
when the people doing the killing are being supported by the U.S. government.
If an even more dangerous crisis is to be averted, the Russian leader's words need to be taken
seriously. To stanch bloodletting in eastern Ukraine and to protect those on the receiving end of
Poroshenko-authorized attacks, I would not expect Putin to let himself be mouse-trapped into
invading Ukraine – at least not until he had exhausted all other alternatives.
More likely, he would impose a no-fly zone in an attempt to shield the opposition in the east
and save it from being decimated. But that itself could represent a dangerous escalation. Poroshenko
and his supporters should realize that such matters can quickly get out of hand. Putin has his own
tough-guy John McCains to deal with.
Someone might remind Poroshenko of the embarrassingly bloody nose that the Russians gave Georgia's
then-President Mikheil Saakashvili in August 2008 when he sent Georgian forces to attack the city
of Tskhinvali in South Ossetia. Moscow justified its military retaliation as necessary to prevent
the killing of Russians as well as the Ossetians in the area.
Ultimately, President George W. Bush and then-Republican presidential candidate John McCain,
who had encouraged Saakashvili's adventurism, were powerless to protect him.
Ray McGovern works with Tell the Word, a publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour
in inner-city Washington. He came to Washington over 50 years ago and worked as a CIA analyst under
seven Presidents, one less than Gates. Ray now serves on the Steering Group of Veteran Intelligence
Professionals for Sanity (VIPS).
"...As we have seen in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and many other places, violent "regime change"
by definition means destroying existing political and social institutions. "
Funny but the picture depicts the neoliberal revolution which although started as a typical color
revolution quickie acquired national socialist overtones. Another problem with Stephen Walt that
he does not distinguish "liberalism" and "neoliberalism". Also because the current USA has nothing to
do with classic liberalism, but is a quintessential neoliberal society, I changed the word "liberal"
to "[neo]liberal" to make the article slightly better correspond the reality. Comments shows that many
readers do not buy the author line of thinking.
What has gone wrong? Iraq has come unglued. ISIS just announced the founding of
a new caliphate. The Afghan presidential election is contested and getting ugly. The nuclear
talks with Iran are going slowly, even as opponents devise
new ploys to derail them completely. Ukraine is a mess with a tentative cease-fire being blown
apart. China continues to throw sharp elbows. Japan is getting martial again. And Britain is getting
closer to leaving the European Union. I could go on, but you may not have enough antidepressants
handy.
So much for the "new world
order" that President George H.W. Bush proclaimed in the heady days following the fall of the
Berlin Wall. So much for the alleged demise of "power
politics" once hailed by the likes of Bill Clinton and Thomas Friedman.
The end
of history? Not even Francis Fukuyama believes in that one anymore. The overall level of human
violence may be
in decline
(though a single great-power war could derail that finding), but world politics seems to be spinning
more out of control with each passing week.
In the hyperpartisan world of contemporary U.S. politics, Democrats blame these present woes
on George W. Bush, while Republicans trace them all to Barack Obama or (looking ahead) to Hillary
Clinton. And both sides can find ample evidence for these politically motivated indictments.
... ... ...
In recent months, for example, Secretary of State John Kerry responded to Russia's seizure of
Crimea by denouncing Russian President Vladimir Putin as trapped in
"19th-century" rules. Similarly, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush denounced their various authoritarian
adversaries (Slobodan Milosevic, Ali Khamenei, Kim Jong Il, Muammar al-Qaddafi, etc.) in the harshest
terms. Unfortunately, calling someone a part of the "axis of evil" is not a policy, and pointing
out that a foreign leader is a despicable tyrant doesn't change anything, especially when the accusation
is accurate. Needless to say, real tyrants are not sensitive to this sort of criticism.
...As we have seen in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and many other places, violent "regime change"
by definition means destroying existing political and social institutions. Unfortunately, the
collapse of the old order and the subsequent foreign occupation make it even less likely that an
effective democracy will emerge. The resulting anarchy empowers those with a taste and a talent
for violence, and it forces local populations to turn to ancient sources of local identity (such
as tribes, clans, or religious sects) for protection. It is hard to think of a better way to destroy
the tolerance and individualism that is central to [neo]liberal philosophy.
Moreover, [neo]liberal governments seeking to wage idealistic crusades often end up lying to
their own people in order to sustain popular support, and they have to maintain large and secretive
national security apparatuses as well. Paradoxically, the more a [neo]liberal society tries
to spread its creed to others, the more likely it is to compromise those values back home.
One need only look at the evolution of U.S. politics over the past 20 years to see that tendency
in spades.
Finally, because most [neo]liberals are convinced that their cherished beliefs are beyond debate,
they fail to recognize that non-[neo]liberal societies may not welcome these wonderful gifts from
abroad. On the contrary, the more the well-meaning foreign interference overseas -- whether through
military occupation, sanctions, or even NGOs like the National Endowment for Democracy -- the
greater the allergic reaction the interference is likely to generate. Foreign dictators will
heighten repression, and populations that are supposed to greet their liberators with flowers will
offer up IEDs instead. Massive state-building projects end up distorting local economies and fueling
corruption, especially when the idealistic [neo]liberal occupiers have no idea how the local society
works.
The conclusion is obvious. The United States and other [neo]liberal states would do a much better
job of promoting their most cherished political values if they concentrated on perfecting these
practices at home instead of trying to export them abroad. If Western societies are prosperous,
just, and competent, and live up to their professed ideals, people in other societies will want
to emulate some or all of these practices, suitably adapted to local conditions.
In some countries, this process may occur rapidly, in others only after difficult struggles,
and in a few places not for many decades. This fact may be regrettable, but is also realistic. Trying
to speed up a process that took centuries in the West, as the United States has been trying to do
since 1992, is more likely to retard the advance of [neo]liberal values than it is to advance them.
I disagree. The wars of aggression foisted on the American people were the oligarchs
wanting a greater piece of the wealth of the aggrieved countries. And then the gullible public
are told it is to establish Democracy, Freedom and Apple Pie.
seolari
The problem in US foreign policy is very effectively shown in the comments below. The US
policy cannot be different than the ignorance of its populace. How about leaving other societies
figure out their own problems. How can a society developed without making its own decisions
be them mistakes or not. The trend or the wave of history in the middle east or Muslim world
is not going to change no matter what the US does, these interventions are only a temporary
artificial hindrance jest like colonialism was. Once its over the Trend is going to continue
to were it was before. This is because certain issue in those societies as in all societies
have to be worked out between them and no one else. Americans have this unattractive narcissism
to them, they believe that they know better than everyone els. How that narcissism has formed
should be studdit very closely because that is where most of the current problems in the world
and its long term development rest. You should trust human nature, all societies wont freedom
and all that comes with democracy but it can not be artificially implentet in them as if it
was a capetlistic brand. Societies are not like consumerism they are much more complicated than
that.
glendac
I just noticed the change in headline from "American Values Are to Blame for the World's
Chaos" to "Democracy, Freedom, and Apple Pie Aren't a Foreign Policy." What to make of that?
I can't help relating this to another FP article on Blackwater's namechanging game. Which makes
me think, are the U.S. failures in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. a failure of ideology or a systems
failure - big government unable to take on the complex political risks of liberal values, a
government only too willing to pass on the buck (yes, both the $$$ and the blame) to cowboy-swaggering
contractors like Blackwater.
anthonyravlich
In my view, the onset of neoliberalism and elitest globalization resulted in traditional
liberalism morphing into a liberal collectivism (involving a left-class which uses human rights
in its own interests). This liberal collectiviism also took over the UN and on 10 December
2008 the two sets of rights which were at the centre of a major ideological battle between east
- the communists promoting economic, social and cultural rights i.e. social justice and the
west which championed civil and political rights e.g. freedom and democracy - were given equal
status. This rebalanced global power away from the West to other regions - all this was hidden
from the global public who only saw the consequences - the Global Financial Crash 2008/9, the
increasing involvement of the UN i.e. UNDP, in increasing police, security rule of law so far
reaching about half the world's countries and more recently the rebalance of global power saw
the rise of repressive regimes to higher positions at the UN. With the equal status given both
sets of the rights it meant that now not just civil and political rights but also economic,
social and cultural rights have to be compatible to IMF elitist policies and the IMF has 188
member States. This meant the UDHR in its implementation is elitist.
So, in my view, neoliberalism morphed into a neoliberal absolutism - a near absolute control
of all human behavior covered under the declaration - the actions of the UNDP is to ensure compliance
with neoliberal absolutism which means the elimination of independent thought which will seriously
limit the growth of human knowledge and consequently the survival of the human race which may
need to live on other planets one day. In short, while much has been done to eliminate extreme
poverty - the West's traditional liberties are targeted for elimination the reason being that
the liberal collectivists, who are largely descent based by birth or social class and with virtually
all academics now captured- are very concerned to hide their hegemony and their pursuit of global
dominance e.g. one world government - consequently unsafe truth and ideas must be eliminated.
If all this sounds very negative check out my new plan for the world an ethical approach to
human rights, development and globalization - first outlined in my book, many articles on the
internet (see San Francisco Bay Indymedia) - its virtually banned from the mainstream but amazingly
received support from the UN, US States Dept, Open democracy initiative of the White House (and
many others) on the internet but not in the mainstream media which might reach the democratic
majority. I regard it as a crime against humanity that the UN has failed to inform the global
public of this ethical plan in the mainstream media.
qmab
Silly article with an appalling headline. Huge generalizations not backed up by facts. Lots
of skewed thinking. For example, "The desire to extend liberalism into Eastern Europe lay behind
NATO expansion.." Here's the way that sentence should be written: The desire of the people of
Eastern Europe to have a democratic political system and their request to join NATO out of fear
of Russia...
And then this bit: John Kerry responded to Russia's seizure of Crimea by denouncing Russian
President Vladimir Putin as trapped in "19th-century" rules." That's wrong because...? You're
criticizing "sputtering"? Do you want an attack instead?
Can't you see that "it's all our fault" is really part of "we're the most important people
on earth"? Drop the Americocentric position. Maybe this headlines and articles get clicked on
-- sensationalism always draws a crowd -- but they do nothing to advance understanding of what
is happening in the world.
danowen
When did the U.S. ever try to promote democracy? Only when corporations stood to benefit.
Salvador Allende was the first president of a Latin American country elected democratically,
but because he was a Marxist we supported the military coup and junta that was in power for
17 years and which ruthlessly crushed and murdered any perceived opposition. There are many,
many other examples like the installation of the Shah in Iran, replacing the democratically
elected Prime Minister Mosaddegh.
It is a bad joke to say that the U.S promotes democracy and deceitful to criticize it for
doing something (promoting democracy) when in fact the U.S. promotes dictatorships far more
often.
Hardly true
This is a typical article that describes US foreign policy full with "good intentions" but
resulting in catastrophic results.
While I agree with the last point I do not agree on the premise. If you look on the history,
US has continuously backed up
foreign nation leaders that are anti-liberal, anti-human rights but who have pursued regional
interests of US.
I urge readers to examine more carefully this point of view. Good starting point are writings
of Prof. Noam Chomsky.
hydroxide
@Ethan Hunt
" We try to help a country, it goes south and it is 100% our fault. "
Yes. If you chase a horde of mustangs through a china store, it IS 100% your fault if the
whole place goes south. If you make no effort whatsoever to understand the place and the balance
of power and the relationships between different people, it is certainly NOT the fault of these
people that you spit into their faces.
Plenty of people predicted the outcome in Iraq - and in other countries. The US has left
a string of failed states in its wake. From its desire to control the operation in Somalia all
the way to Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya.
The garbage is on your side, because you try to defend committing the same idiocy all over
again time after time after time. You are willing to butcher people to cater to your ignorance
- please explain how that makes you any different from the likes of Osama bin Laden?
Prime Minister of Russia Dmitry Medvedev, believes that President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko
has made a "huge blunder" by resuming anti-terrorist operation in the East.
This the head of the Russian government wrote on his page on Facebook.
"Breaking the truce, President, Poroshenko has made a huge blunder. It will bring new victims.
And for those human victims he now will carry the personal responsibility", - said Medvedev.
"To return to negotiations will be much harder. Such are the laws of war," he added.
"on June 27, Ukraine signed the Association Agreement with the EU. This right of Ukraine. The
right of Russia to switch to the new conditions of work with it. To protect its market. The decision
about the protection measures to be taken after consultations. The Russian government now is analyzing
the situation. And also developing our activities in the framework of the Agreement on the free
trade area of the CIS and WTO rules", wrote the Prime Minister.
"Ukraine does not pay for gas. Debt is huge. They plan to take gas from underground storage
facilities. By the autumn will be a full-fledged gas crisis", he said.
"A huge flow of refugees. Tens of thousands. People are fleeing from war. American propaganda
claims that they were going to "for vacations with grandparents". Their cynicism has no limits,"
said Medvedev. - "In such conditions to develop relations with Ukraine will be extremely difficult,
and on certain issues impossible."
It's worth than a crime - it was a blunder. We already have too much of similar blunders for
the four months after the Maidan. Let' mention the abolition of the law on languages, and threats
of Crimea instead of negotiations, and the beginning of the ATO instead of rapid decentralization.
All of them are united by one thing - these were blunders by Provisional government of Turchinov-Yatsenyuk.
The resumption of war in Donbas is the first political blunder by Poroshenko.
Why the President has ended the truce? Many believe that due to the requirements of paramilitary
battalions and self-defense of the Maidan. But battalion "Donbass" and similar death squads constitutes
at most 10% of troops which are engaged in this civil war. And Maidan (especially today) is not
the whole Ukraine and can't represent it. Has anyone heard the requirement to resume the war from
the soldiers of the regular army - those who actually fought in the hot spots, not imitate the war
where the insurgents have no serious forces?! Someone has conducted a survey of all Ukrainians with
one simple question: "are you for the continuation of the war or for peace talks?"?!
One reason that was named is that during the ceasefire solders continued to be killed. It's true.
But who would think that with the resumption of war they will perish less?! Yes, but and with them
will be killed those who fight for the separatists. And many peaceful people, citizens of Ukraine
will be killed as well. People for the sake of which seems this "anti-terrorist operation" (aka
ATO) was started.
widespread opinion among supporters of the resumption of war is that the ATO is conducted to return
the Donbass in the Ukraine, but for this you need to make sacrifices. But this view was refuted
by none other then Poroshenko, who said to the Western media: "We will never get back these regions
by military means". And the President has clearly told the truth, confirmed two months of fighting
before a ceasefire. Nothing but new hundreds of victims was achived.
The same result will be of this resulmption of hostilities. They will be eventually suspended
for a new truce - deferred truce for which another hundreds of lives were paid. The continuation
of the already mentioned quote by Poroshenko reads: "We must win the minds and hearts of people."
And here the President's got it right too, but the problem is that "to win the hearts and minds"
after hundreds of victims will turn into a thousand, will be even more difficult. If not impossible.
Funny but the picture depicts the revolution which although started as a typical color revolution
quickie acquired brown national socialist overtones. The problem with Stephen Walt that he does not
distinguish "liberalism" and "neoliberalism". Also because the current USA has nothing to do with classic
liberalism, but is a quintessential neoliberal society (rule of financial oligarchy), I changed "liberal"
to "[neo]liberal" to make the article slightly better correspond the reality. Comments shows that reader
does not buy the author line of thinking.
What has gone wrong? Iraq has come unglued. ISIS just announced the founding of
a new caliphate. The Afghan presidential election is contested and getting ugly. The nuclear
talks with Iran are going slowly, even as opponents devise
new ploys to derail them completely. Ukraine is a mess with a tentative cease-fire being blown
apart. China continues to throw sharp elbows. Japan is getting martial again. And Britain is getting
closer to leaving the European Union. I could go on, but you may not have enough antidepressants
handy.
So much for the "new world
order" that President George H.W. Bush proclaimed in the heady days following the fall of the
Berlin Wall. So much for the alleged demise of "power
politics" once hailed by the likes of Bill Clinton and Thomas Friedman.
The end
of history? Not even Francis Fukuyama believes in that one anymore. The overall level of human
violence may be
in decline
(though a single great-power war could derail that finding), but world politics seems to be spinning
more out of control with each passing week.
In the hyperpartisan world of contemporary U.S. politics, Democrats blame these present woes
on George W. Bush, while Republicans trace them all to Barack Obama or (looking ahead) to Hillary
Clinton. And both sides can find ample evidence for these politically motivated indictments.
... ... ...
In recent months, for example, Secretary of State John Kerry responded to Russia's seizure of
Crimea by denouncing Russian President Vladimir Putin as trapped in
"19th-century" rules. Similarly, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush denounced their various authoritarian
adversaries (Slobodan Milosevic, Ali Khamenei, Kim Jong Il, Muammar al-Qaddafi, etc.) in the harshest
terms. Unfortunately, calling someone a part of the "axis of evil" is not a policy, and pointing
out that a foreign leader is a despicable tyrant doesn't change anything, especially when the accusation
is accurate. Needless to say, real tyrants are not sensitive to this sort of criticism.
...As we have seen in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and many other places, violent "regime change"
by definition means destroying existing political and social institutions. Unfortunately, the collapse
of the old order and the subsequent foreign occupation make it even less likely that an effective
democracy will emerge. The resulting anarchy empowers those with a taste and a talent for violence,
and it forces local populations to turn to ancient sources of local identity (such as tribes, clans,
or religious sects) for protection. It is hard to think of a better way to destroy the tolerance
and individualism that is central to [neo]liberal philosophy.
Moreover, [neo]liberal governments seeking to wage idealistic crusades often end up lying to
their own people in order to sustain popular support, and they have to maintain large and secretive
national security apparatuses as well. Paradoxically, the more a [neo]liberal society tries
to spread its creed to others, the more likely it is to compromise those values back home.
One need only look at the evolution of U.S. politics over the past 20 years to see that tendency
in spades.
Finally, because most [neo]liberals are convinced that their cherished beliefs are beyond debate,
they fail to recognize that non-[neo]liberal societies may not welcome these wonderful gifts from
abroad. On the contrary, the more the well-meaning foreign interference overseas -- whether through
military occupation, sanctions, or even NGOs like the National Endowment for Democracy -- the
greater the allergic reaction the interference is likely to generate. Foreign dictators will
heighten repression, and populations that are supposed to greet their liberators with flowers will
offer up IEDs instead. Massive state-building projects end up distorting local economies and fueling
corruption, especially when the idealistic [neo]liberal occupiers have no idea how the local society
works.
The conclusion is obvious. The United States and other [neo]liberal states would do a much better
job of promoting their most cherished political values if they concentrated on perfecting these
practices at home instead of trying to export them abroad. If Western societies are prosperous,
just, and competent, and live up to their professed ideals, people in other societies will want
to emulate some or all of these practices, suitably adapted to local conditions.
In some countries, this process may occur rapidly, in others only after difficult struggles,
and in a few places not for many decades. This fact may be regrettable, but is also realistic. Trying
to speed up a process that took centuries in the West, as the United States has been trying to do
since 1992, is more likely to retard the advance of [neo]liberal values than it is to advance them.
I disagree. The wars of aggression foisted on the American people were the oligarchs wanting
a greater piece of the wealth of the aggrieved countries. And then the gullible public are told
it is to establish Democracy, Freedom and Apple Pie.
seolari
The problem in US foreign policy is very effectively shown in the comments below. The US
policy cannot be different than the ignorance of its populace. How about leaving other societies
figure out their own problems. How can a society developed without making its own decisions
be them mistakes or not. The trend or the wave of history in the middle east or Muslim world
is not going to change no matter what the US does, these interventions are only a temporary
artificial hindrance jest like colonialism was. Once its over the Trend is going to continue
to were it was before. This is because certain issue in those societies as in all societies
have to be worked out between them and no one else. Americans have this unattractive narcissism
to them, they believe that they know better than everyone els. How that narcissism has formed
should be studdit very closely because that is where most of the current problems in the world
and its long term development rest. You should trust human nature, all societies wont freedom
and all that comes with democracy but it can not be artificially implentet in them as if it
was a capetlistic brand. Societies are not like consumerism they are much more complicated than
that.
glendac
I just noticed the change in headline from "American Values Are to Blame for the World's
Chaos" to "Democracy, Freedom, and Apple Pie Aren't a Foreign Policy." What to make of that?
I can't help relating this to another FP article on Blackwater's namechanging game. Which makes
me think, are the U.S. failures in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. a failure of ideology or a systems
failure - big government unable to take on the complex political risks of liberal values, a
government only too willing to pass on the buck (yes, both the $$$ and the blame) to cowboy-swaggering
contractors like Blackwater.
anthonyravlich
In my view, the onset of neoliberalism and elitest globalization resulted in traditional
liberalism morphing into a liberal collectivism (involving a left-class which uses human rights
in its own interests). This liberal collectiviism also took over the UN and on 10 December
2008 the two sets of rights which were at the centre of a major ideological battle between east
- the communists promoting economic, social and cultural rights i.e. social justice and the
west which championed civil and political rights e.g. freedom and democracy - were given equal
status. This rebalanced global power away from the West to other regions - all this was hidden
from the global public who only saw the consequences - the Global Financial Crash 2008/9, the
increasing involvement of the UN i.e. UNDP, in increasing police, security rule of law so far
reaching about half the world's countries and more recently the rebalance of global power saw
the rise of repressive regimes to higher positions at the UN. With the equal status given both
sets of the rights it meant that now not just civil and political rights but also economic,
social and cultural rights have to be compatible to IMF elitist policies and the IMF has 188
member States. This meant the UDHR in its implementation is elitist.
So, in my view, neoliberalism morphed into a neoliberal absolutism - a near absolute control
of all human behavior covered under the declaration - the actions of the UNDP is to ensure compliance
with neoliberal absolutism which means the elimination of independent thought which will seriously
limit the growth of human knowledge and consequently the survival of the human race which may
need to live on other planets one day. In short, while much has been done to eliminate extreme
poverty - the West's traditional liberties are targeted for elimination the reason being that
the liberal collectivists, who are largely descent based by birth or social class and with virtually
all academics now captured- are very concerned to hide their hegemony and their pursuit of global
dominance e.g. one world government - consequently unsafe truth and ideas must be eliminated.
If all this sounds very negative check out my new plan for the world an ethical approach to
human rights, development and globalization - first outlined in my book, many articles on the
internet (see San Francisco Bay Indymedia) - its virtually banned from the mainstream but amazingly
received support from the UN, US States Dept, Open democracy initiative of the White House (and
many others) on the internet but not in the mainstream media which might reach the democratic
majority. I regard it as a crime against humanity that the UN has failed to inform the global
public of this ethical plan in the mainstream media.
qmab
Silly article with an appalling headline. Huge generalizations not backed up by facts. Lots
of skewed thinking. For example, "The desire to extend liberalism into Eastern Europe lay behind
NATO expansion.." Here's the way that sentence should be written: The desire of the people of
Eastern Europe to have a democratic political system and their request to join NATO out of fear
of Russia...
And then this bit: John Kerry responded to Russia's seizure of Crimea by denouncing Russian
President Vladimir Putin as trapped in "19th-century" rules." That's wrong because...? You're
criticizing "sputtering"? Do you want an attack instead?
Can't you see that "it's all our fault" is really part of "we're the most important people
on earth"? Drop the Americocentric position. Maybe this headlines and articles get clicked on
-- sensationalism always draws a crowd -- but they do nothing to advance understanding of what
is happening in the world.
danowen
When did the U.S. ever try to promote democracy? Only when corporations stood to benefit.
Salvador Allende was the first president of a Latin American country elected democratically,
but because he was a Marxist we supported the military coup and junta that was in power for
17 years and which ruthlessly crushed and murdered any perceived opposition. There are many,
many other examples like the installation of the Shah in Iran, replacing the democratically
elected Prime Minister Mosaddegh.
It is a bad joke to say that the U.S promotes democracy and deceitful to criticize it for
doing something (promoting democracy) when in fact the U.S. promotes dictatorships far more
often.
Hardly true
This is a typical article that describes US foreign policy full with "good intentions" but
resulting in catastrophic results.
While I agree with the last point I do not agree on the premise. If you look on the history,
US has continuously backed up
foreign nation leaders that are anti-liberal, anti-human rights but who have pursued regional
interests of US.
I urge readers to examine more carefully this point of view. Good starting point are writings
of Prof. Noam Chomsky.
hydroxide
@Ethan Hunt
" We try to help a country, it goes south and it is 100% our fault. "
Yes. If you chase a horde of mustangs through a china store, it IS 100% your fault if the
whole place goes south. If you make no effort whatsoever to understand the place and the balance
of power and the relationships between different people, it is certainly NOT the fault of these
people that you spit into their faces.
Plenty of people predicted the outcome in Iraq - and in other countries. The US has left
a string of failed states in its wake. From its desire to control the operation in Somalia all
the way to Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya.
The garbage is on your side, because you try to defend committing the same idiocy all over
again time after time after time. You are willing to butcher people to cater to your ignorance
- please explain how that makes you any different from the likes of Osama bin Laden?
,,, When in the evening at the grill we discussed "the European future of Ukraine under the roof
of Brussels", well I pulled to think about the restoration of the rights of former owners. This
is a very interesting topic, especially for residents of the Western part of Ukraine, and first
of all for those who are fortunate enough to live in the historical part of the city, among the
ancient streets and cozy cafes, the often-mentioned "European Ukrainians".
The experience of distant relatives of one of the Baltic States know that by launching a wave
of payment of damages to former owners, people simply "being asked for money", forcing re-pay their
own homes due to the suit of "heirs", or to agree to the unequal exchange. And always in this racket
actively participated local municipal authorities.
The most far-sighted citizens of Ukraine for a long time (almost 10 years ago)
realized this danger. However, after the signing
of the Treaty of Euroasociation the interest to the topic has flashed with new force.
It is appropriate here to recall the well-known article by Dr D.E.Galkovsky "Philosophy
of Maidan":
"If Galicia, and after them and all other Ukrainians rush to Europe, subconsciously they
strive not to toilets and orange plantations, and to live in, they feel empty Dresden, Barcelona
and Vienna. After all, it was with their fathers and grandfathers. Come on carts to Lvov - the
city is empty..."
"At the Yalta conference Winston Churchill did not want to pass the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist
Republic Galicia. But Stalin insisted, and grandfathers of those who may 9 this year crushing
buses with veterans, who came from different parts of the country, to lay flowers on the graves
of their comrades had the opportunity to settle in the houses of citizens poles who inhabited
the city until 1945"
According to statistical data (not those that were retroactively edited in Wikipedia to include
"Ukrainians" but those in the old Encyclopedia of Brockhaus and Efron and other reference books,
which reflect the religious composition of the population), at the beginning of the twentieth century,
the proportion was as follows:
In rural areas among the peasants up to 75% were the Orthodox;
among landowners, up to 80% were Catholics.
In the cities, with the average number of 20-25 thousand people, there were up to 50% of Catholics,
the rest were Orthodox, Protestants (about equally) and the Jews.
Think about how many of today's residents of old buildings of the cities of Western Ukraine can
defend their right to have a roof over their head, especially in old parts of the city. But as I
understand it, those who have more chances to suffer in the course of "restoration of historical
justice", is not informed.
Two pretty women that I "insulted" in the this party, were never interested in the former owners
of their Ivano-Frankivsk property. Therefore, the phrase "in the near future you will inevitably
pay restitution" they understood differently and were offended. They never heard the words
"restitution". So, it seems, when the process will begin, it will become a complete surprise for
them.
The break by Peter Poroshenko of temporary truce and order of the resumption of criminal actions,
which are referred to in Kyiv as "anti-terrorist operation" (and please I don't tell me about Chechnya;
cases of suicide bombing with victims among the civilian population in Ukraine today, thank God,
is unknown), despite the consolidated pressure Berlin, Paris and Moscow, is bad. But it looks like
truly offensive spit in the fact to Berlin and Paris.
Moscow was probably ready to this turn of event (and preapered for such a possibility), but the
leaders of the "f***ked EU once again were humiliated. Washington clearly delianiated in what place
they view legitimate interests, of its, so to speak, European partners. Each time, when their interests
enter even in at least the slightest contradiction with Washington's interests.
... ... ...
Among other things, war (and businessman Petro Poroshenko understands this) is also money. Every
bullet, each cartridge cost money. Which are gone forever. Each blown up house. Also money gome
forever.
Every day of the war is also a certain number of zeros in the column "total". Losses both senseless
and merciless. Poroshenko understands - and he said that in france, - that a military solution of
"problems of Donbass" does not exist. Yes, and even if it existed: why he needs totally destroyed
and angry and desparate Donbass? and it is not feasable to build a concentration camp, using the
exampel of junta ideological grandfathers. Even on the outskirts of Europe they can't be built.
and this is clear even for overseas friends of Peter Poroshenko, who are solving their tasks. Even
for them with thier Guantanamo mess, admittedly, new consentration capms would lokk as an overkill.
Also no matter how menacing all this shipped to Donbass the heap of armor looks, any specialist
who has some informatin about real state of the Ukrainian army is well aware that this is a very
limited resource. It is good only for several days long blitzkrieg but after that remains that survive
the fighting can be dumped somewhere. But such a blitzkrieg should be really fast, which is clearly
unlikely. And in a little more or less protracted confrontation with a detarmined, tencious enemy
ready to stand to the last solger, such a foces most likely is doomed. So any state of a "frozen
conflict" for Peter Poroshnko is a real gioft if he, of course, going has some sanity and expect
to manage the entrusted territory for some time from now.
Why you would ask he need to make love with cactus? Look further.
If we are talking about the Europeans they need the continuation of the civil war in the East
of the continent even less than Peter Poroshenko. What's the point of signing any of the "Association"
with the territory on which there is such a war?
Moveover while each day of the war does not cost EU, in contrast to Ukraine, "real money" - it
increases the risks. such as buncrupcy of ukrains, energy security, criminalization of the region
(refugees, you know, it is not always good people, especially refugees for enporerished Ukraine
in relatively well-fed and secure Europe), and economic (under attack are including vital for the
economy of the EU relations with Russia). Yes and there are some environmental risks (about the
fact that in this territory there are several nuclear plants, too, how would you shouldn't forget).
But, believe me, in this particular situation, European leaders again does not have a say. They
are puppets. In the best case - they can curse Washington in secret.
Russia is also forced to keep silent. Just because the occupation of Ukraine now has no practical
sense (again - military solution to the Donbass does not exist), and any other actions with the
currest composution of UN Security Council are just ritual dances over victims of Kiev bombardments
of Donbass coties and killing of civilians.
So the question "Cui prodest"?" we have, in this case, can be answered very easily. Everything
is clear without very complex analysis as for the goals and objectives of operation. The only question
I have, while our overseas friends are in such a hurry. Do they, like shokolade wrapped Kiev junta
are aware of the limited resources they have and therefore went va bank with the blitzkrieg?! If
so then that situation becomes, sorry, really dangerous. Because a monkey with a grenade is a great
danger not only in the car speeding off the road.
MOSCOW - In a stern warning that cited civilian casualties in war-torn eastern Ukraine, Russia
on Wednesday demanded that the Ukrainian government reinstate a cease-fire and halt its military
operation aimed at suppressing the pro-Russian separatist insurrection that has laid siege to the
region for more than three months.
"Again we resolutely demand that the Ukrainian authorities - provided they are still able to
evaluate sensibly the consequences of the criminal policy they conduct - to stop shelling peaceful
cities and villages in their own country, to return to a real cease-fire in order to save human
lives," the Foreign Ministry said.
The statement went on to accuse the government of President Petro O. Poroshenko of the "physical
annihilation of citizens of their own country" and, citing the evacuation of an orphanage in the
Luhansk region, said, "the Ukrainian authorities do not even care about the fate of small children."\
The statement was issued as the foreign ministers of Ukraine, Russia, France and Germany were
due to meet on Wednesday afternoon in Berlin to discuss the crisis and the possibility of resuming
peace negotiations.
Everybody believed that they had an understanding of a continued ceasefire. But, the hawks
in the Security and Defense Council almost revolted at the meeting last night and forced Porochenko
to break the ceasefire.
I am sure both Merkel and Hollande are quite furious about Porochenko's turning, but I am
also sure what follows.
Scipio1, 01 July 2014 1:35pm
European leaders and the US have urged Russia to use its influence with the rebels to ease
the bloodshed and have threatened to impose another round of economic sanctions against Moscow
They might be better advised to urge Poroshenko to cease his massacre of civilians and threaten
him with sanctions. What a cowards' war the Ukrainian forces are conducting: bombing and shelling
unarmed civilians from the safety of their own bases. Great fun, like a video game, shooting
fish in a barrel. I seem to remember that we had Nuremburg trials to deal with these sort of
outrages.
Hanwell123, 01 July 2014 1:35pm
Why is it that the Guardian still declines to point out that both France and Germany urged
Kiev to extend the ceasefire and talk? Too near the bone of American influence in Europe I can
only imagine.
indoorain, 01 July 2014 1:37pm
Yesterday there were news on various sites of Ukraine army using WMD - chlorine. Anyone with
updates on this one?
SHappens, 01 July 2014 1:39pm
In his speech today Putin clearly put the blame of Poroshenko for the resume of fighting,
said Russia will defend its people with all means at its disposal. At the same time EU postponed
the sanctions as the situation on the ground is confused
MPArthurPewty, 01 July 2014 1:41pm
First it is required for everyone to understand who are right and wrong here then it
can be solved in minutes. Poroshenko started to dig his own grave today. He had chance
but preferred to be an idiot with blood on his hands.
Soon Merkel will no longer be able to look like fool and confess the reality. I'm waiting
any declaration from her and Hollande. And then we'll see.
madeiranlotuseater, 01 July 2014 1:47pm
Europe is supposed to be about building trade with your neighbours in peace. Not killing
each other. We had it in Northern Ireland, The Basque Separatists in France and Spain, in Chechnia
and Georgia. We simply do not need this in Ukraine. We do not need a missile shield on the door
step of Russia. It gives the wrong message.
Mr Poroshenko, this is not the way forward for Europe (which one should not forget includes
Russia). Sit down at the table with the Eastern Ukraine separatists and work out a deal.
"Russian President Vladimir Putin condemned the renewed violence, putting Ukraine in a line
with Iraq, Syria and Libya." The line of thinking which equates Ukraine with Iraq, Syria and
Libya spell possible troubles for Washington ...
The longer a conflict drags on, the greater the risk of further civilian casualties and the
harder it will be for Ukraine's new government to stitch the society back together. Ukraine's
economy presented a formidable challenge even without a growing insurgency in the country's industrial
heartland. The foreign ministers of Ukraine, Russia, Germany and France planned to meet Wednesday
in Berlin in a last-ditch effort to restart negotiations, the Russian Foreign Ministry said late
Tuesday.
"The active phase of the counterterrorism operation resumed this morning," the chairman of
Ukraine's parliament, Oleksandr Turchynov, told legislators Tuesday. "Our armed forces are hitting
the bases and outposts of terrorists."
Russian President Vladimir Putin condemned the renewed violence, putting Ukraine in a line
with Iraq, Syria and Libya and saying that he could not stand by as a nation with close historical
ties to Russia descended into chaos.
Hours after a ceasefire ran out, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko is saying on Tuesday that
government forces will renew offensive operations against pro-Russian rebels. ( / Reuters)
"All of us in Europe need a sort of safety net, so the Iraqi, Libyan, Syrian and Ukrainian
precedents will not turn into an infectious disease,"
Putin told a Moscow meeting of Russia's ambassadors.
AMHants
Does the USA regime have any understanding of what the colour revolutions are doing for the
international reputation of the USA? Personally, before Ukraine kicked off and I realised it
was all to do with yet another colour revolution (sponsored by the USA) and the $5 billion cookies,
I was more than happy to visit America (as I have in the past) and buy USA products and be supportive
of America, believing in the freedom of America.
Now, owing to the USA regime and its psychotic tendencies, as Operation Gladio and False
Flag scenarios came to my conscious, well I have completely turned my back on spending my money
on any USA corporation products. Whether it be Coca-Cola, McDonalds or even Windows (yes I am
looking to upgrade my computer with a Russian model) or anything that relates to the good old
USA.
My money now is going to support any company that originates from Russia or who is still
working together with Russia, L'Oreal being one such company. Plus, next year my vacation will
be a River Cruise between St Petersburg and Moscow.
Sorry, but I actually respect Russia and the way the President and his team, puts the country
and its people first. How they believe in multi-polarity as opposed to globalisation, totalitarian,
state control in the package of uni-polarity. I have nothing against the citizens of the USA,
besides pity, but the USA administration absolutely saddens and disgusts me. By the way the
UK is exactly the same and I am absolutely disgusted with my Government and the shadow government,
that would act exactly the same.
My best wishes to the poor people of Eastern Ukraine, who so do not deserve the genocide
that is being inflicted on them as I touch type, by the Kiev Government, fully supported by
USA/EU/NATO. Look up the Odessa Trade Union Building if you are curious. That is just for starters.
freddie11
Amen, AMHants, many of us feel the same, but please notice that the American media is not
presenting the truth of the Ukrainian crisis to the American people, and page through the comment
section of the WaPo to see the obstacles faced by those, like yourself, who try to speak truth
to power. It's the cold war on steroids, shameful.
AMHants
It is the same in the UK, they are fully supportive of those in Kiev. I apologise for being
critical of America, but it is not the people and a wonderful memory I have is Christmas USA
after 9/11 and seeing the Amercian flags flying and being so supportive and patriotic of their
country. It is Obama and his team and it is exactly the same in the UK, the Westminster Palace
is following the same team and nothing to do with those that vote them in. Tony Blair says it
all.
Mickey Mouse
At 12 o'clock at night Ukrainian army launched a massive artillery
bombardment of sleeping Kramatorsk city, in particular from systems of
salvo fire BM-27 "Uragan", the shelling was only to the residential
quarters, resulting in killed many citizens, water supply are broken,
violated electric power supply of city .
In addition, the Ukrainian army pulls to a cities tactical missile systems 9K79 by NATO classification
SS-21 "Scarab A"
This will lead to a greater number of civilian casualties.
Already clear to all that this is no "anti-terrorist operation", this extermination of civilians.
It is clear to all but all are silent
oo525
Murderous poroshenko, just fresh video - youtube.com/watch?v=w3bPK201WsU
"Ukrainians will lose 5-6 billion dollars of annual revenue earnings in Russia by the signing of
the Ukrainian government Association agreement with the EU"
The rupture of relations of Kiev with Moscow had a negative effect on the work of Ukrainian Gastarbeiter
in Russia. Now they have fewer opportunities to earn money in Russia, to feed their relatives at
home. And signed the Association agreement with the EU can completely deprive Ukrainian migrants
billions of earnings in Russia and dramatically reduce, already very low level of life in Ukraine.
Incomes of Ukrainians who earn in Russia, have already begun to melt because of the deteriorating
relations The official statistics of private money transfers to Ukraine from Russia states that
the volume of in the first quarter of 2014 fell by almost 10% to 468 million (National Bank of Ukraine)
However, Russia still remains the first in the list of countries from which Ukraine received
private transfers. The distant second is the USA. with $136 million (decrease of 7.7%).
Ukrainians transferred money from other countries, but in smaller volumes. Although some countries
the volume of transfers increased. From the UK Ukrainians were moved to the homeland of 66.6 million,
which is 23% more than in the first quarter of last year, from Azerbaijan - 12,7 million dollars
(growth by as much as 38%) and from the Czech Republic - 8,1 million (+22.7%).
In total in the first quarter of 2014 Ukrainians have send to the homeland almost 8% less money
than in the same period 2013 - 1.64 billion dollars. According to the National Bank of Ukraine,
almost $ 1.1 billion of this amount is the money received by migrant workers-Ukrainians.
It is important to note that since 2010, the volume of remittances of Ukrainians of Russia was
steadily growing. Thus, in 2010 the citizens of Ukraine sent from Russia a little less than $ 2
billion, in 2011 - more than $ 2.5 billion in 2012 - 3,4 billion (the data of the Central Bank of
the Russian Federation). Data around 2013 yet. However, in the first nine months of last year, remittances
Ukrainians showed an increase of almost 15% (in comparison with the 9 months of 2012) - up to $
2.7 billion.
Against this background, the decline in remittances from Russia by the Ukrainians in the first
quarter of 2014 looks unusual. However, this is easily explained by the change of power, rupture
of relations with Russia and due to political instability problems with crossing the border of the
Russian Federation and Ukraine.
"A complication of relations with Russia had a negative effect on the work of Ukrainians Gastarbeiter
on the territory of the Russian Federation: first entered a more challenging environment for workers
related to licensing and quotas, now the political instabiltty negativly influence possibility of
crossing border to the adjacent countries," says senior analyst of the company "Alpari" Anna Bodrova.
Official data of remittances Ukrainians is only the tip of the iceberg. According to some data,
the Ukrainians might well earn in Russia up to five times more. According to the FMS of the Russian
Federation, only in 2013, From Ukraine to Russia moved 3.3 million citizens. If a citizen of Ukraine
earns in Russia around a thousands of dollars a month, then those three million Ukrainians earned
in 2013 about $ 27 billion. This is an estimate provided by recently by Russia Security Council
Secretary Nikolai Patrushev.
Many Ukrainians working in Russia drive home and take money as cash, so a large amount of money
is simply not reflected in official transfere statistics, says Anna Bodrova. Now the number of Ukrainians
working in Russia became much less. On June 2014 in Russia there are aprroximatly 1.6 million Ukrainians.
The experts of the Committee of civil initiatives also estaimated the income of Ukrainian Gastarbeiter
at 11-13 billion dollars, which is as much as 7% of Ukraine's GDP. Around 60-70% of Gastarbeiter
income is the income from Ukrainian Gastarbeiter Russia. That means that Ukrainians earn in Russia
around $7- $ 9 billion annually.
The more Ukraine away from Russia, the less will by the Ukrainians Gastarbeiter opportunities
in Russia. So this important source of income for the country, which for many years has helped to
maintain the standard of living and the balance of payments of Ukraine can drastically decrease.
Even if total income of Ukrainian Gastarbeiter in Russia fall by half, it will seriously affect
the standard of living said Bodrov. Ukraine's GDP in this case, will likely lose ¾ income from this
source.
Rupture of relations with Russia after Ukraine signed on June 27, the Association agreement with
the EU can led to loss of 5-6 billion dollars of annual earnings by Ukrainians Gastarbeiters in
Russia.
Shelves here, as usual, full. However, Alena B. quickly pushing his cart, passing shelves with goods
in one of the Kyiv hypermarkets. She carries in his truck basic food products: rice, flour, sugar,
milk. The rest of it buys from farmers at the entrance to the store. There cucumbers are not as
smooth as in the produce Department, and tomatoes some cracked, but they have a nice smell.
And,
first of all, they are cheap. With the change of power in Kiev in the life of this former accountant
nothing has changed - except that her modest pension was not enough even more. This money was never
much. Therefore, when in November 2013, the people came out to the square and began to protest,
she was agree with them. Although she did not understand how the signing of the Association agreement
with the European Union can directly improve the lives of all the citizens of Ukraine and why the
situation has significantly deteriorated only because of the fact that arrogant President unexpectedly
refused to put under the document signed. However, she shared the people's enraged by the disastrous
economic situation.
But when on the Maidan they began to shoot and burn tires, when more aggressive, militant people
came forward to erect barricades, to occupy buildings or to set them on fire, her sympathy towards
the demonstrators has quickly evaporated. The impression that they are more occupied with their
own affairs. Alena B. started to understand who will pay for all those events. and she was right,
she quickly saw how everything became more expensive. For drugs today, she pays twice.A liter of
gasoline is already 16 UAH, whereas a few months ago it wwa costing 10.
The economic downturn in the country with a population of 45 million people became extremely
got momentum very quickly. One corrupt regime was replaced by another, one "family" was replaced
by another.
Currency reserves of Ukraine in the period from January 2013 to may 2014 has decreased by two
times and now are at their lowest level since 2005. External debt is 142,5 billion dollars. That's
ten times bigger than the amount of foreign exchange reserves. Ukraine need to repay around $ 23
billion of exprining this year debt obligations, plus interest. But what to get those money?
Industrial production in the period from January to April 2014 fell by 4.3% in comparison with
indicators of last year. The drop in steel production amounted to 21%. In engineering, which provides
almost 10% of exports, in the first quarter, output fell by almost 20%, and manufacture of locomotives
and cars decreased by 50%.
It is not clear whether such a significant downturn in the economy is the result of political
unrest or also connected with fact that the main customer, Russia, has reduced the import from this
country. However, everything is connected here. In any case, in the first quarter of 2014 the volume
of foreign trade with Russia shrank by 4.6%, and last year it amounted to about 50 billion dollars.
The volume of imports from the EU was more than exports, and last year the balance was approximately
12 billion dollars.
Arseniy Yatsenyuk, who in a coup in February 2014 became the head of the government, abolished
instructions and orders his predecessor Nikolai Azarov, which were aimed at reviving the economy
in the long run. Those mostly ideologically motivated decisions that Yatsenyuk and forces supporting
junta which came to power rushed, have accelerated the downturn in the economy. If during work the
Azarov government for one dollar was exchanged for approximately eight hryvnyas, we its 12.
However, there are doubts that measures of Azarov cabinet, aimed at achieving economic stability
and economic recovery, would be implemented, even if it had not been overthous by supported by the
West radical junta in a violet change of power. There were considerable divergence of views in the
Azarov Cabinet, and there was a struggle for power between technocracts and supporters of President
Viktor Yanukovych "family".
The sharp contradictions existed on the issue of tax refund large private companies. The members
of the "family" was trying to maintain their belonging to friends of the enterprise. This amount
per year ranged from 40 to 45 billion UAH, which flowed from the state Treasury to the accounts
of private persons by the Way, in the first two months of work Yatsenyuk as the head of the government,
this amount made already about 12 billion UAH, that is again about 1 billion dollars.
Every Sunday the most important Ministers, who were members of the "family" went on personal
aircraft to Donetsk, where they, together with the President's son Alexander Yanukovych held meetings
"small circle". They discussed the most important destination, and your decisions on financial flows
and control over them. "Greater circle" in Kiev was left with a sinle task of legalizing the decitions
made.
But can the Kiev coup cosidered to be good from the point of view of the fight against corruption?
Of course not. Dubious transactions freely continue today. Even more so. So, for example, the oligarch
and the Governor of Dnepropetrovsk region Igor Kolomoisky is the owner of PrivatBank That the Bank
was granted a "stabilization" loan in the amount of 9 billion UAH, which, according to experts,
was absolutely not necessary. This amount was purchased dollars at the rate of 1:8. After the rate
has fallen to a mark 1:14, Kolomoisky sold the dollars and received good profit in a few billion.
Then he again began to buy dollars, when the rate stood at 1:11. Net income of the private individual
from state aid amounted to 300 million dollars.
And what the President Petro Poroshenko? When the oligarch was at his predecessor's economy Minister,
he has achieved multi-million dollar financial support program for the production of school buses
for the company "Bogdan". Surname of the owner of the enterprise - Poroshenko.
Alena B., which languish in Kiev a satellite town of the Left Bank from afar and see the sparkle
domes of the monastery, as well as the roof of shopping centres and banks, of course, will get nothing
from these dubious transactions.
Mr. Putin, in a speech to diplomats in Moscow on Tuesday, said that he and other leaders had
sought to persuade Mr. Poroshenko to continue the ceasefire during the conference call on Monday
but that the Ukrainian leader had chosen war over peace and would now bear personal responsibility
for the outcome.
While Mr. Putin reiterated his pledge to defend Russian-speaking people wherever they live, he
did not threaten any imminent military force or announce any redeployment of Russian forces along
the Ukrainian border, as he has in other instances when tensions flared.
"Unfortunately, President Porosehnko has resolved to resume military action," Mr. Putin said.
"We failed - when I say 'we', I mean my colleagues in Europe and myself - we failed to convince
him that the road to a secure, stable and inviolable peace cannot lie through war."
Mr. Putin added, "Now he has taken the full responsibility for this, and not only military
responsibility, but also political."
In his speech, Mr. Putin called the economic sanctions by the West against Russia "blackmail,"
and said that the West had precipitated Russia's actions in Crimea by blithely ignoring Russia's
interests for years.
"I would like to stress that what happened in Ukraine was the climax of the negative tendencies
in international affairs that had been building up for years," Mr. Putin said. "We have long been
warning about this, and unfortunately, our predictions came true."
MOSCOW - Russia is involved in a historic effort to defend its civilization, President Vladimir
Putin said Tuesday, vowing to protect the interests of the Russian community abroad as violence
again escalated in Ukraine.
Hours after Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko ended a ceasefire and renewed his assault against
pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine's southeast, Putin compared Ukraine to Iraq, Syria and Libya
and said that he could not stand by as a nation with close historical ties to Russia was taken over
by people he dismissed as "neo-Nazis."
Putin made no specific commitment to increasing Russia's involvement in the roiling southeast
region of Ukraine, but he indicated that he would blame Poroshenko for any violence in Ukraine going
forward. It was a hint that a stretch of conciliatory efforts from the Kremlin after Ukraine's May
25 presidential election may be at an end.
Poroshenko has "taken up full responsibility for the continuation of this military campaign,"
Putin said in a nationally-televised speech to a Moscow gathering of Russia's ambassadors.
"We in Europe all need a safety net, so the Iraqi, Libyan, Syrian and Ukrainian precedents will
not turn into an infectious disease," Putin said, warning that European countries may be less stable
than they appear.
And he suggested that the slow expansion of the NATO defense alliance toward Russia's borders was
a historic threat that had prompted Russia to annex the Crimean peninsula, the centuries-old home
to Russia's Black Sea fleet.
"Everything that Russia has been fighting for since the time of Peter the Great and maybe earlier
– the historians will know better - all of that was at risk. And I want everyone to understand.
Our country will continue to defend the rights of Russians, our compatriots, abroad and to use our
entire arsenal - from political and economic means to the right to self-defense, as provided for
in international law."
His speech came as Ukrainian security forces on Tuesday pressed an assault against pro-Russian
separatists in the east of the country, hours after Poroshenko suspended a 10-day cease-fire that
had brought only limited tranquility and no permanent peace.
Both sides appeared to be digging in for a protracted conflict, as separatists said Tuesday that
they would be willing to return to the negotiating table only if Ukrainian security forces pulled
out of eastern Ukraine - a demand that Poroshenko has flatly ruled out.
Four people died Tuesday and five were wounded when a minibus came under fire near the eastern
town of Kramatorsk, the Donetsk Regional Administration said in a statement. It said that an investigation
was still under way and did not make clear whether rebels or Ukrainian security forces did the shooting.
Rebels early Tuesday opened fire on Ukrainian military airplanes at the Donetsk airport, the Donetsk
mayor's office said.
Poroshenko on Tuesday said he would restart military operations against separatists in the east
of the country, vowing to strike a blow against rebels after a 10-day cease-fire ended with no peace
deal.
Declaring in a nationally televised speech that pro-Russian separatists who have seized territory
in the east had met none of his demands for peace talks, Poroshenko said that he would be ready
to return to the negotiating table if his opponents released hostages, allowed international monitors
on the borders and halted weapons flowing in from Russian territory.
"We will attack and defend our land," Poroshenko said in the speech, which came after an hours-long
meeting with his advisers. Protesters had gathered outside his offices in Kiev to push for an end
to the cease-fire, which many on the pro-government side had worried was simply giving the separatists
a chance to regroup and rearm. In the speech, Poroshenko guaranteed Russian-language rights and
more regional autonomy, two key demands of Kiev skeptics in the country's rebellious industrial
heartland in the east.
Russian leaders on Tuesday condemned the truce's end and called for a return to peace talks.
"We think that it is simply impossible to restore peace, justice, law and order in Ukraine without
a truce and without starting dialogue," the chairman of the lower house of Russia's parliament,
Sergei Naryshkin, said on Tuesday, according to the Interfax news service.
Violence had continued during the 10 days of the cease-fire, but its intensity had lessened,
Ukrainian officials had said in recent days. The official end to the break in hostilities appeared
to stall halting attempts to bring the sides to the negotiating table and it raised the prospect
of strengthened sanctions by the European Union and the United States against Russia.
E.U. leaders on Friday suggested that they would slap Russia with more sanctions if it did not
take concrete steps to seal its porous border with Ukraine and ensure that separatists put down
their arms. U.S. officials also have indicated that they are poised to increase measures against
Russia. White House spokesman Josh Earnest said Monday that the Kremlin needed to take "tangible
actions" to avoid more sanctions.
Poroshenko spoke on Sunday and Monday to Russian President Vladimir Putin, German Chancellor
Angela Merkel and French President François Hollande in a last-ditch effort to prolong the cease-fire,
Hollande's office said.
Ukraine's Foreign Ministry said that 27 troops had been killed after Poroshenko announced the
cease-fire June 20.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov on Monday called for a "full-fledged peace process" as
soon as possible, the foreign ministry said. Russia is willing to post Ukrainian and international
observers in its own border posts along the border with Ukraine, Lavrov said, an apparent effort
to satisfy a European demand that separatists hand back Ukrainian border points that they have seized
in recent weeks.
Pro-Russian separatists have said they would be willing to engage in full negotiations only if
Ukrainian troops make a full withdrawal from territory that they have claimed as sovereign and independent
- an unlikely step, since Ukrainian authorities have said that they worry that doing so would simply
allow their opponents to rearm.
Meanwhile, a top American NATO official renewed accusations Monday that Russia has been supporting
the separatists with weapons and other support, a charge Russian officials have denied.
"There are some good words about a cease-fire and peace, but what we see is continued conflict,
continued support of the conflict from the east side of the border" with Russia, the commander of
NATO forces in Europe, Air Force Gen. Philip Breedlove, told reporters in Washington.
Also Monday, Russia's state-run Channel One announced that a cameraman, Anatoly Klyan, 68, died
near the eastern city of Donetsk after a bus he was traveling on came under fire, apparently from
the Ukrainian military.
Michael Birnbaum is The Post's Moscow bureau chief. He previously served as the Berlin correspondent
and an education reporter.
Selected Comments
freddie11 ,
It's not "collateral damage" in eastern Ukraine. Hospitals, residential areas, schools, markets,
and churches are being purposefully targeted to terrorize the civilian population, to chase
out the "subhumans", the ethnic Russians who have lived there for generations.
Attacks on civilian infrastructure continue in the east, per the SITREP report on the
Vineyard of the Saker's blog - hospitals, markets, churches, large apartment compexes, wherever
there are large gatherings of civilians. It's a campaign of terror, to drive out the "subhumans",
the ehnic Russians whose families have lived in this area of what is now called Ukraine
for generations. It's ethnic cleansing, and to call it by any other name is a lie. Where
are the "never again" people?
freddie11, 10:42 AM EDT [Edited]
Defy him? Poroshenko is just following the script he's been given by his US masters, supporting
the fascist neo-Nazis of Right Sector, to terrorize the "subhumans" of eastern Ukraine, the
ethnic Russians who have lived there for generations. Chevron and Shell have big gas contracts
aleady signed for that area, Burisma Holdings, and Joe Biden's son, hold permits to explore
and develop there, how much cheaper is the land going to be when there's no infrastructure left?
Bombs away!
Dave27
Check the time magazine to see good proof of the savagery of Ukrainian forces. There was
a full page photo of an unarmed man going into vote during the referendum. That full page photo
was taken moments before that man was riddled with bullets.
Ukrainian government don't have any problem ordering their citizens to be shot point blank for
simply walking into a polling booth. And you call that a democracy? Is that the type of democracy
you want to support?
Ukraine was part of Russia. If the people want to rejoin Russia, then they should be allowed
to do that.
Dave27
If Putin = crazy, then Bush = infinite times crazy.
How did that search for WMD end up?
And where is the proof Syrian forced used chemical weapons on Syrians few months back?
When is McCain gonna visit his cannibal friends of his? May be he should take Palin, Cheney,
Bush, and Rumsfeld with him on the next visit.
Contrary to Putin's view I thing this is brilliant success of the US diplomacy. They essentially
had shown that losses from building the ships can exceed losses from stopping doing that. And this is
a fair game as world has way to many such ships in any case. In no way Russia really needs them...
Recall that about a month ago we reported that shortly after France was stunned to see its largest
bank slammed by its bestest buddy, the US, with a record $9 billion fine, "France
responded to the fine by announcing it will train hundreds of Russian seamen to operate the French-Made
Warship", the Mistral. In other words, for all the angry rhetoric of sanctions against Russia,
France was merely the latest country to admit that it too can't exist without Russian business (not
to mention natural gas) even if, or especially if, it means incurring US wrath which is
taken out on its banking institutions. After all, if the US is engaging in scorched earth tactics
France needs a stable trade partner, especially if it is one who turns on the gas, so to speak.
As a reminder, this is what all the commotion is about:
However, it turns out that was only a small part of the story.
Earlier today, when speaking to Russian diplomats in Moscow, Vladimir Putin accused the
U.S. of blackmailing France to scrap a contract to sell Russia Mistral warships by offering to cut
a record $8.97 billion fine against BNP Paribas.
From Bloomberg:
France's largest bank agreed to plead guilty in court documents yesterday to processing almost
$9 billion in banned transactions involving Sudan, Iran and Cuba from 2004 to 2012. The company
will be temporarily barred from handling some U.S. dollar transactions.
French President Francois Hollande has refused to cancel a contract to sell two Mistral-class
helicopter carriers to Russia in the face of criticism from the U.S.
"We know about the pressure which our U.S. partners are applying on France not to supply
the Mistrals to Russia," Putin told Russian diplomats in Moscow today. "And we even know that
they hinted that if the French don't deliver the Mistrals, they would quietly get rid of the
sanctions against the bank, or at least minimize them," he said without naming BNP Paribas.
"What is that if not blackmail?" Putin said.
Well it is blackmail, but what's worse it shows to what depths the US will fall when
it fails to get its way in the international arena even with its so-called allies, which under Obama,
is essentially always.
But one wonders: since the biggest opponent of Russian sanctions in Europe is, by and far, Germany
- despite what Merkel spouts any given day - and since Russia is sure to antagonize the US in the
coming months, one wonders: just what legal and criminal action will the US reveal against Deutsche
Bank in the coming months as first blackmail, then "punishment" for daring to engage America's suddenly
most hated superpower adversary?
And perhaps a better question: with US foreign policy set to continue its disastrous ways, does
this mean that the best way to profit from the incompetence of John Kerry et al is merely to short
a basket of European banks? After all, if it happened with BNP it is sure to happen elsewhere in
Europe - a continent which, for better or worse, is now wrapped around Putin's gas finger.
This page is closed as new materials have nothing to do with color revolution
mechanics (and actually this was true for some some time, but inertia pushed the page beyond the right
point)
Provisional government which Poroshenko inherited resigned after ruling coalition collapsed (Udar
and Svoboda left the coalition). The government of Arseniy Yatsenyuk was created shortly
after February 2014 coup d'état form main conspirators. It's formation and instant recognition by
the West signified the victory of EuroMaidan "color revolution"
supported and financed by the USA and EU. This revolution removed from power President Viktor Yanukovych and
installed pre-selected by Nuland and Co people in power. Those people represented mainly Nationalist part of population of
Galicia, Volyn
and Ivano-Frankivsk provinces (partially also Vinnitsa and Dnepropetrovsk provinces).
The Parliament was formed the "ruling coalition" of "Batkivshchyna", ultranationalist "Freedom" and UDAR
parties which represented alliance of Dnepropetrovsk oligarchic clan
with ultranationalists. New, completely dominated by ultranationalists, Parliament started its law
making with the attempt to
suppress Russian language and abolish the adopted under Yanukovich compromise law about usage
of minority languages, but this attempts failed as Turchinov did not signed it into law. They also immediately abolish the law which
prohibited public display of Nazi symbols.
In a month or so they unleashed armed attempt forcefully
suppress the protest of South-East and started to organize ultranationalist militias (aka death
squads) to help to preserve and sustain the power obtained in coup.
Results of their rule now are pretty much evident. It is destruction of the country. Easiness
with which they unleashed the civil war is startling. And as for language if they wanted to be art
of Europe one official language should be English to which probably both Western Ukrainian
nationalist and Eastern Ukraine "confederates" could agree. That does not mean that Eastern Ukraine
is blameless, but still the major factor in unleashing this was were far right forces which came to
power in February and their foreign sponsors. It was probably Odessa massacre which turned the
tide in Donetsk and Lugandk toward armed resistance. But Crime also a factor.
My impression is that far right forces expected the brute force suppression of South East will
bring quick success. And they badly miscalculated. Instead of short-term and bloodless "anti-terrorist" operation, new Ukrainian authorities now got
what now officially called civil war. And this civil war on South East is fought with tremendous cruelty against
civil population using air bombardments, tanks and heavy artillery, and with many civil population
victims (I think over a thousand dead and more then 10K wounded as of Jul 24, 2014, counting victims
on MH17).
Like in Spain civil war volunteers from various European countries joined the battle: Russians, Serbs,
Croats, Ossetians on South-East (confederates) side; Swedes, Poland mercenaries, etc on Kiev (far
right nationalist) side.
On July 23, 2014 Red Cross officially declared the conflict to be a civil war.
That fact that Red Cross decorated this conflict to be a civil war changes the game legally,
since there are two warring
parties on equal legal footing. Both are responsible
for war crimes. for some reason in MSM the view on civil war is like on something like "war light".
In reality this is the most "heavy metal" war, the most cruel, uncompromising and destructive. It's
enough to remember the US civil war which was the first war in which destruction of civilian
infrastructure became a war goal. The is also a war with the highest number of victims among civil
population, children and woman. Compare with Mosgovoy interview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZxP-a3FlX1g
Maidan, in which the only valid, rational idea was the protest against oligarchic republic and rule
of oligarchs in Ukraine, completely disintegrated without achieving any progress in this direction.
One oligarchic clan replaced the other. Anyone who thinks Maidan ended crony capitalism and the reign of the oligarchs are delusional. It
was skillfully converted into something like national-socialist revolution in Germany, which brought
to
power alliance of far right nationalists and Dnepropetrovsk oligarchs, who never has chances to get
to power legitimately.
If before the events of February-July supporters of Maidan could claim that
Yanukovich was an old-fashioned thieving tyrant, representative of Donetsk oligarchic clan, who
hinder Ukrainian progress toward democracy and European choice, now would be laughed out of the
court. In comparison of half-a-year of junta rule corrupt Yanukovich regime looks now much
more palatable. If you need to chose between a thief and a murderer, the choice is pretty clear to
everybody. Economic collapse became unmanageable and grivna lost half of its value, making already
poor people completely desperate paupers.
Unlike
NSDAP coming to power in
Germany in 1933 and this period was accompanied with the recovery of German economy (may be due to measures
taken during Weimar republic), hijacking of Maidan protest by Far Right nationalists and February
coup d'état (Orange Revolution II with brown overtones) did not bring the country anything good: the
Ukrainian economy now is in ruins, brutal civil war was unleashed in South-East. Ukraine lost
Crimea.
And far right are incapable to negotiate in principle -- their slogans are "Ukraine uber alles"
and "death to enemies" Due to those difficulties now there are frictions within winner camp: Poroshenko fired Parubiy, who essentially brought him to power, Klitschko tries to remove remnants of protesters from
the Maidan square using brute force, Kolomoisky is at war with Lyashko, Avakov is at war with Kernes
and also might not last long. And civil war unleashed by Turchinov-Yatsenyk junta is simply madness!
The war in Ukraine became predictable when the great Muslim Brotherhood Project in Syria failed
during the summer of 2012. It became unavoidable in December 2012, when the European Union and Russia
failed to agree on the EU's 3rd Energy Package. The geopolitical dynamics which are driving the
war in Ukraine were known in the early 1980s.
Hundred years after the shots in Sarajevo ignited WW I, Europe is again being driven
towards disaster. Hundred years ago the presence of true statesmen could have prevented the war.
Today many of the selected front figures of western democracies dress up in pilot uniforms while
they hardly have the qualifications needed for a job as flight attendant.
The handling of the tragedy surrounding the crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 prompted Malaysian
PM Najib Razak to leash out at those behind the geopolitical chess game that led to the death of
the 298 on board the Boeing 777-200. Showing true statesmanship, PM
Najib Razak said:
"As a leader, there has never been an occasion as heart-breaking as what I went through
yesterday. Wives losing their husbands, fathers losing their children. Imagine their feelings
from such a great loss. … This is what happens when there is a conflict, whatever conflict that
cannot be resolved through negotiations, with peace. In the end, who becomes the victim"?
The War in Ukraine Began in Libya and Syria.
In 2007 the discovery of the world's largest known reserves of natural gas, shared by Qatar and
Iran, led to the Great Muslim Brotherhood Project that was sold under the trade mark "The Arab Spring".
A joint Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian pipeline project was supposed to transport Iranian gas from the
PARS gas fields in the Persian Gulf to Syria's eastern Mediterranean coast and further on to continental
Europe. It was this development that played midwife to the birth of the Great Muslim Brotherhood
Project.
The completion of the Iran – Iraq – Syria pipeline would have caused a cohort of developments
which were unacceptable to the US, UK, Israel and Qatar. Several continental European countries,
including Germany, Italy, Austria, Czech Republic saw much more favorably at it. Together with the
Russian gas which the EU received via Ukraine and the North Stream pipeline, the EU would have been
able to cover some 50 percent of its requirements for natural gas via Iranian and Russian sources.
It would be naive to assume that Israel was not gravely concerned about the prospect of Iran
becoming one of the European Union's primary sources of natural gas. Energy security concerns influence
foreign relations and foreign policy. EU – Israeli relations and the influence Tehran would have
attained with regard to the EU's position on Palestine and the Middle East are no exception to that
rule.
The US and UK were not interested in competition to the Nabucco project. Qatar, the main center
of gravity with regard to the international Muslim Brotherhood, eyed its chance to become a regional
power to be recogned with and sent a 10 billion US dollar check to Turkey's Foreign Minister Ahmed
Davotoglu. The money was reportedly earmarked, to be spent on preparing the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood
for the Great Project.
An additional dimension that was overlooked by many, if not most analysts, was that the US/UK
never would allow Russian – continental European relations to be dominated by an interdependence
that had some 50 percent of continental Europe's energy security at its heart. To explain that point,
allow me to refer to a conversation the author has had with a top-NATO admiral from a northern European
country during a day of sailing on a sailing yacht in the early 1980s. Discussing European security
issues, out of the reach of curious ears and microphones he said that (paraphrased):
"American colleagues at the Pentagon told me, unequivocally, that the US and UK never would allow
European – Soviet relations to develop to such a degree that they would challenge the US/UK's political,
economic or military primacy and hegemony on the European continent. Such a development will be
prevented by all necessary means, if necessary by provoking a war in central Europe".
It is safe to assume that the discontinuation of the USSR with help of the US and UK has not
significantly changed the principle premises of this doctrine and that it is still valid today.
By 2009 the implementation of the Great Muslim Brotherhood Project was already in high gear.
The former French Foreign Minister
Roland Dumas recalled during an appearance on the French TV Channel LPC in July 2013. (audio
recording).
"I'm going to tell you something. I was in England two years before the violence in Syria on
other business. I met with top British officials, who confessed to me that they were preparing something
in Syria. … This was in Britain, not in America. Britain was organizing an invasion of rebels into
Syria. They even asked me, although I was no longer Minister of Foreign Affairs, if I would like
to participate. Naturally, I refused, I said I am French, that does not interest me. …
" This does not make sense. … There are some sides who have the desire to destroy Arab States,
like what happened in Libya before, particularly given Syria's special relations with Russia., …(emphasis
added)…That if an agreement is not reached, then Israel will attack and destroy the governments
that stand against Israel".
Note Dumas' reference to Libya. Note that the statement came after NATO abused UN Security Council
Resolution 1973 (2011) on Libya to implement the Great Muslim Brotherhood Project in that country.
The then U.S. Permanent Representative to NATO Ivo H. Daalder and then NATO Supreme Allied Commander
Europe and Commander of the U.S. European Command James G. Stavridis published an article in the
March/April 2012 issue of Foreign Affairs, calling NATO's "intervention" in Libya "A teachable moment
and model for future interventions".
The statement was repeated at NATO's 25th Summit in Chicago that year. As
Ivo H. Daalder also explained in a Forestal
Lecure that year, there was a need for a new warfare, special warfare. Traditional conventional
war had become impossible. Moreover,
Libya was necessary as a hub for the shipment of arms and the recruiting and training of mercenaries
for Syria, Mali, and beyond.
Defeat in Syria Made the Ukraine War Unavoidable.
In June and July 2012 some 20,000 NATO mercenaries who had been recruited and trained in Libya
and then staged in the Jordanian border town Al-Mafraq, launched two massive campaigns aimed at
seizing the Syrian city of Aleppo. Both campaigns failed and the "Libyan Brigade" was literally
wiped out by the Syrian Arab Army.
It was after this decisive defeat that Saudi Arabia began a massive campaign for the recruitment
of jihadi fighters via the network of the Muslim Brotherhoods evil twin sister Al-Qaeda.
The International Crisis Group responded by publishing its report
"Tentative Jihad". Washington had to make an attempt to distance itself "politically" from the
"extremists". Plan B, the chemical weapons plan was hedged but it became obvious that the war on
Syria was not winnable anymore. This, and nothing else was why the British parliament turned down
the bombing of Syria in August 2013.
The
war on Ukraine had become predictable from that point onwards and the timing of the developments
in Ukraine during 2012 and 2013 strongly suggest that plans to overthrow the Yanukovich government
and to aim at a long-term destabilization of Ukraine were launched after July 2012.
There was one last opportunity to turn the tide with regards to Ukraine in late 2012, during
negotiations about the European Union's 3rd Energy Package. Relations between Russia and the EU
were stressed by a primarily British-sponsored initiative within the EU that was targeting Russia.
The "EU" or UK/US should not accept that a major energy provider like Russia or Gazprom had the
majority ownership over both the gas and the transportation System.
On 21 December 2012 the leaders of the 27 EU member states and Russia held a summit in Brussels
but failed to resolve the issue. It was from this point onward that the war in Ukraine had become
unavoidable, which means that it was from here on, that powerful lobbies in the US and UK became
hellbent on starting a 4th generation war in Ukraine. On
December 22, 2012, nsnbc published the article "Russia – E.U. Meeting in Brussels: Risk of Middle
East and European War Increased". The December 2012 article stated
"The sudden pullout of the Ukraine on Tuesday is by energy insiders with whom the author
consulted perceived as yet another Ukrainian, US and UK backed attempt to force the expansion
of NATO and to drive a wedge between an increased integration of the Russian and E.U. Economies.
As it will become obvious below, it is related to an aggressive attempt to save the value of
the petro dollar".
By February 9, 2013, relations between Russia and core NATO members had deteriorated so much
over Syria and the lack of convergence in energy issues, that Russia's Ambassador to NATO, Alexander
Grutchko said:
"Someone here in Brussels made a most profound point by saying that if you are holding a hammer,
you should not think that every emerging problem is a nail. We think the world has ample opportunity
to engage in energy cooperation and to ensure energy security without making use of military-political
organizations as an instrument".
There were not many who at that time understood the bearing of the Russian NATO Ambassador's
words.
On February 21 the Ukrainian parliament was seized by masked gunmen. The president was removed
from office in a vote held in the presence of gunmen. One of the first official statements of the
new powers at be was that the Russian language would no longer be accepted as the second official
language in the predominantly Russian speaking eastern regions of Ukraine.
The statement was bound to and didn't fail to elicit a response that would tear Ukraine apart.
On February 22, 2013, some 3,500 governors from southern and eastern Ukrainian regions convened
in Kharkov and rejected the legality of the putchist parliament and any of the laws it adopted.
Was the tragedy surrounding MAS Flight MH17 another Sarajevo moment and will it be used to throw
an additional spanner into attempt to peacefully integrate the Russian and European economies?
Michael Emmerson, associate senior research fellow at the Centre for European Policy Studies
suggests "After MH17, the EU must act against Putin and stop importing Russian gas".
Dr. Christof Lehmann an independent political consultant on conflict and conflict
resolution and the founder and editor in chief of nsnbc, exclusively
for the online magazine "New Eastern Outlook".
Imperial Washington is truly running amuck in its insensible confrontation
with Vladimir Putin. The pending round of new sanctions is a
counter-productive joke. Apparently, more of Vlad's posse will be put
on double probation, thereby reducing demand for Harry Macklowe's swell new
$60 million apartment units on Park Avenue. Likewise, American exporters of
high tech oilfield equipment will be shot in the foot with an embargo; and
debt-saturated Russian state companies will be denied the opportunity
to bury themselves even deeper in dollar debt by borrowing on the New York
bond market. Some real wet noodles, these!
But it is the larger narrative
that is so blatantly offensive-that is, the notion that a sovereign state is
being wantonly violated by an aggressive neighbor arming "terrorists" inside
its borders. Obama's deputy national security advisor, Tony Blanken, stated
that specious meme in stark form yesterday:
"Russia bears responsibility for everything that's going on in
Eastern Ukraine" and "has the ability to actually de-escalate this
crisis," Blinken said.
Puleese! The Kiev government is a dysfunctional, bankrupt usurper that is
deploying western taxpayer money to wage a vicious war on several million
Russian-speaking citizens in the Donbas--the traditional center of
greater Russia's coal, steel and industrial infrastructure. It is
geographically part of present day Ukraine by historical happenstance. For
better or worse, it was Stalin who financed its forced draft
industrialization during the 1930s; populated it with Russian speakers to
insure political reliability; and expelled the Nazi occupiers
at immeasurable cost in blood and treasure during WWII. Indeed, the Donbas
and Russia have been Saimese twins economically and politically not merely
for decades, but centuries.
On the other hand, Kiev's marauding army and militias would come to an
instant halt without access to the $35 billion of promised aid from the IMF,
EU and US treasury. Obama just needs to say "stop". That's it. The civil war
would quickly end, permitting the US, Russia and the warring parties of the
Ukraine to hold a peace conference and work out the details of a separation
agreement.
After all, what is so sacrosanct about preserving the territorial
integrity of the Ukraine? Ever since the middle ages, it has consisted of a
set of meandering borders in search of a nation that never existed owing to
endemic ethnic, tribal and religious differences. Its modern boundaries
are merely the fruit of 20th century wars and the expediencies of a
totalitarian state during the decades of its rise, rule and disintegration.
There was until recently a neighboring "state" of equally
artificial lineage called Czechoslovakia. It was carved out of the German
and Austrian empires by the vengeful victors at Versailles, urged on by
scheming Czech nationalists who coveted the resources of the Slovaks. But
notwithstanding revolutions, the Stalinist oppression, the Cold War,
the Prague Spring and all the rest of the 20th
century mayhem--the machinations at Versailles didn't birth a state that was
viable or sustainable. Accordingly, separation has been had, and the parties
are better off for it-as are its neighbors and the larger world.
And on the topic of partition there is the ghost of Yugoslavia–another
state that emerged in whole cloth from the madness of Versailles. Yes, it
has been partitioned now into half a dozen smaller states--Slovenia,
Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia, Kosovo and Bosnia. But
the operative point is that the partitioner was none other than Washington
and its European groupies who had no regard for those happenstance 20th
century-made borders when it suited their purpose.
So the sanctimonious yelping from Washington about the sacred territorial
integrity of the Ukraine is ahistorical tommyrot. In fact, however, it is a
thin fig leaf for a far more insidious purpose. Namely, the
self-aggrandizement of the Warfare State machinery that was left stranded in
Imperial Washington without purpose or justification when the Cold War ended
two decades ago.
So the Warfare State machinery-including its spy network,
state department, aid agencies and NGO supplicants- invented enemies and
missions to justify their continued existence and their massive dissipation
of fiscal resources. Those are upwards of $1 trillion annually if you count
everything including veterans and homeland security.
Thus, after arming the mujahedeen in Afghanistan against the Soviets in
the 1980s, their Taliban successors were deemed our enemy after the cold war
ended-even though they never poised a scintilla of threat to the citizens of
Lincoln NE or Worcester MA. So too with our 1980′s ally Saddam Hussein, and
also with Khadafy, Assad and the warring tribal potentates and cutthroats of
Yemen, Somalia and Waziristan, to name just a few.
But it is in eastern Europe that the Warfare State machinery has most
egregiously made an enemy and mission out of whole cloth. As the Cold War
was drawing to a close in the late 1980s, then Secretary of State James
Baker made a sensible deal with Gorbachev. In return for Soviet acquiesce in
the reunification of Germany, the US would insure that NATO did not expand
by a "single inch".
Since then, of course, there has been a senseless bipartisan betrayal and
stampede in the opposite direction. Starting under Clinton and extending
through Bush and Obama, NATO has been expanded from 16 nations at the end of
the Cold War to 28 countries today.
Yet the very recitation of its new members underscores the historical
farce that this needless expansion amounted to. For better or worse, the
formation of NATO in the late 1940′s involved what were perceived to be
vital national security interests against a Stalinist policy that by the
lights of the hawks and militarists of the day amounted to a violation
of his Yalta obligations. Accordingly, NATO constituted an alliance of real
nations-England, France, Italy and West Germany--that could make a
meaningful contribution to collective security against the perceived Soviet
threat of the times.
But Albania, Bulgaria, Latvia, Slovakia and Slovenia? And that is not to
forget Moldova, Georgia, Macedonia and the Ukraine-all of which are still
coveted for membership by the NATO apparatchiks. What could these
micro-states possibly contribute to American security? That's especially the
case since the Warsaw pact had been dissolved; the Soviet Empire has erased
from the pages of history; and the Russian successor was left with an
Italian sized GDP encumbered with the destructive legacy of a
state-dominated economy that had been appropriated by a passel of thieves,
opportunists and oligarchs.
In short, today's Ukrainian crisis is the outcome of the mindless 20-year
drive of the Warfare State to push an obsolete NATO to the very doorstep of
Russia, and into the messy remnants of the Soviet disintegration. Stated
differently, Putin has been in power for 15 years, yet during 13 of those
years there was no hue and cry from Washington, London and Brussels that he
was an incipient Hitler bent on sweeping conquest. Even the so-called
invasion of Georgia in 2008 was a tempest in a teapot provoked by
local pro-Russian separatists who did not want to be ruled by a de facto
American interloper in Tbilisi.
In any event, it was the $5 billion that Washington spent during the last
decade meddling in Ukrainian politics, and finally inciting and financing
the February overthrow of the country's constitutionally elected government
that precipitated the current civil war. It brought to power a new gang of
crooks and thugs who could not govern for a day without tapping the
Washington/Western financial lifeline. Indeed, the civil war now raging, the
brutal military attacks on civilian populations and the hundreds of
thousands of refugees now streaming out of the eastern regions are the
result of a crisis made in Washington, not the Kremlin.
So the rebels- who properly fear for their lives and property were the
nationalists and neo-fascists who run the Kiev government to prevail-are not
"terrorists" by any stretch of the imagination. That is just insipid
Washington propaganda. Instead, they are the Russian speaking remnant of
the Soviet empire who fear an ethnic cleansing and who noted well the fate
of their kinsmen in the hands of Ukrainian thugs during the fire at Odessa.
Once again, the American Warfare State has confected a false narrative to
justify policies and missions that have nothing to do with the safety and
security of the citizens of Lincoln NE and Worcester MA. About 55-years ago
such a false narrative arose in the form of the "domino theory" that lead to
the carnage of Vietnam. Ten years ago it cropped up in the form of the WMD
story that led to the disastrous invasion and occupation of Iraq. Today, it
is the preposterous story of Ukrainian territorial integrity, terrorists in
the East and a latter-day Hitler in the Kremlin.
Unfortunately, false narratives are what the Warfare State does.
The Last but not LeastTechnology is dominated by
two types of people: those who understand what they do not manage and those who manage what they do not understand ~Archibald Putt.
Ph.D
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