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Slightly Skeptical EuroMaidan Chronicles, July 2014

News From EuroMaidan to EuroAnschluss Color revolutions Fifth Column of Neoliberal Globalization Compradors Ukraine's oligarchs Democracy as a universal opener for access to natural resources
Who Shot down Malaysian flight MH17 and was it a Provocation? The Far Right Forces in Ukraine EU-brokered agreement on ending crisis  Nulandgate Odessa Massacre of May 2, 2014 To whom EuroMaidan Sharp-shooters belong? Neoliberal Propaganda
Poroshenko presidency Provisional government Destruction by the USA of international law Fighting Russophobia American Exceptionalism Russian Fifth column Humor Etc

It is now quite clear the Ukraine is just a tool for the USA to fight its geopolitical decline by trying to put a wedge in relations between EU and Russia. This also wedge apart Germany and Russia, whose economies are largely complimentary, and box Russia in. In other words this is about retaining U.S. influence in Europe. Nowhere it was more clear then with MH17 provocation (and there are very serious reasons to call this tragedy a geopolitical provocation) and propaganda attack on Russia that followed it.

Senior U.S. State dept official visiting protestors and distributing cookies was another pretty telling sign of what was going on. They managed to break up the political compromises that existed between Galicia nationalists and Russian speaking Ukrainians and Ethnic Russian. The net result is civil war and another failed state/ this time in Europe.

US "containment 2.0" policy toward Russia had been brewing for a long time. It's an illusion to believe that there are some specific steps Russia could take in connection with Ukraine to mollify the US. The organized by the USA (with the help of EU) and financed by NGOs, embassies and some oligarchs February coup d'état is just a step in a complex game of isolation and institution of "regime change" in Russia.

Work for  nurturing and preparation of far right nationalist forces of Ukraine to take power has started many years ago and February events on EuroMaidan is in essence a replay of Orange Revolution on a new level of development of far right forces in Ukraine. That means that Russian step toward fulfilling the USA demands will result in just moving the goal posts. The idea is to return Russia to the status of a regular vassal of Washington like it was under Yeltsin rule. And Ukraine is just one step in such a plan which also involves keeping Germany on a shorrt leash. There is no way in the long term Germany and France and Russia will not become more and more economically integrated. The US interference in Ukraine is probably also directed at preserving vassal status of  Germany and France too. This conflict if it had been left to Germany and Russia would long ago have been solved. The Germans unlike the USA would have put pressure on the Kiev Junta to negotiate a new Constitution along Federal lines with the Rebels before things got out of hand.

The real reasons that US-Russia acrimony has been inexorably building, might be that Russia is at the leading edge of emerging countries that are challenging neoliberalism, which is the US-run global financial and political order.

In any case the real US plan is to tighten the screws using combination of sanctions and vicious propaganda campaign, demonizing Putin and vilifying Russia as the major threat to world peace and stability. In reality Russia is just a threat to neoliberal world order. Introduction of sanctions essentially means the the USA declared an economic war with Russia. The war in which the West due to its financial and technological dominance has huge superiority. The goal of economic sanctions is the cause of so much suffering of the Russian people, that they remove the government of the country and submit to any Western demands. If happen, the demands will certainly include the opening of the country to the predatory Western speculative capital, capital that today finds it harder to penetrate Russia with the same ease as under Comprador regime of Yeltsin.

If we adopt this line of thinking about the whole tragedy of Ukraine, the central even of July was MH17 provocation which provided the USA golden opportunity to advance those goals. The shooting down of the airliner was botched due to incompetence of Ukrainian part and now it looks more and more like a  false flag operation. That's why such a vicious propaganda campaign was launched instantly after the event before any results of investigation come out. Time was running out and it was not clear if the dirt can be swiped under the carpet and for how long. In any case deafening silence of Western MSM after vicious propaganda campaign is pretty telling.

After rebels gave black boxes to Malaysia, pressuring Malaysian authorities to allow decoding of black boxes in London was helpful to hide the tracks. Naturally the questions about behaviour of investigators starting to rise after they essentially refused to disclose their content to the public. Does they contain something incriminating "friendly" country ? As The Sydney Morning Herald noted:

The final five minutes recorded on the black boxes of doomed Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 will be critical to the analysis conducted by air-crash investigators, experts believe. 

After nearly a week missing in action, the black boxes were finally handed over to international investigators on Tuesday night. 

There are two components to the black box; the cockpit flight recorder which records audio in the pilots' quarters, and the data recorder - which takes in all technical details of a flight, including altitude, pressurisation and flight deviations, among thousands of other details. 

Typically two-three days are enough for decoding of the blackboxes, if they were not damaged. And MH17 was such a case.  Instead new sanctions were announced. But nothing was revealed for a month or so, which allowed the continuation of vicious propaganda war and introduction of new sanctions. The goal of which is to increase the internal discontent among Russia's middle class to the level when they can became a vanguard of color revolution, and to institute a regime change via well-polished color revolution mechanism because it is very difficult to cut all the channel of injection of currency into the country for  the destabilization of the regime.  This color revolution scenario was already tried but did not work in Russia in 2011-2012.  That means that the ultimate goal of Ukrainian events is not only (or even so much) economic absorption of Ukraine into EU (with the civil war in Russia Ukraine now represents a huge burden for EU taxpayers instead of the opportunity of extending EU market to another 45 million of people), but the regime change in Russia.

It is also clear that Galician nationalists are determined to subdue (if necessary by brute force) and colonize Eastern and Southern Ukraine and that can create a conflict similar to Yugoslavian conflict between Serbs and Croats.

There is also German dimension of this color revolution which turned into civil war (which somewhat reminds me Spanish Civil War with Galician nationalists instead of falangists). As Olivier Berruyer  noted( Ukraine’s advantage for the new German empire is precisely that it doesn’t exist) "The rise in power of Western Ukraine shows at what point Central Ukraine, which is the majority, is atomized, incapable of organizing itself, in a state of pre-statehood." but the whole event can be viewed through the prism of  Liebestraum  struggle of rising  Germany (with its allies in Galicia being the key players in recent events) and attempt to contain and dismember dramatically weakened after 1991 Russia:  

EMMANUEL TODD GERMANY’S FASTHOLDON THE EUROPEAN An interview CONTINENTby Olivier Berruyer

OB: The integration of the Ukrainian population by the German system would represent a qualitative jump in this dynamic unbalance. Granted, it is a numerous population, but it is poor and produces little…

ET: Yes, but annexing the geographically contiguous and politically controllable poor, in a globalized world craving low-cost labor forces, can be an advantage. Our world is now post-democratic and un-egalitarian; it therefore fosters virtual expansion in zones of very low salary rates.

And Ukraine’s advantage for the new German empire is precisely that it doesn’t exist. It is double, even triple. It is a disintegrating system. In reality, Ukraine has never existed as a correctly functioning national entity. It’s a false state, and it is bankrupt. The fundamental proof of Ukrainian incapacity of statehood, and this has not been stressed, is the role played by the leaders of the Western Ukrainians, at the periphery of the country. One sometimes gets indignant over this, and starts counting their deputies, their ministers, but the Western Ukrainians, altogether, do not represent much. However, what is striking, is the inaction of the central Ukrainians, that is, those who speak Ukrainian, who do not like the Russians that much, who belong originally to the Orthodox religion but who are not tempted by the far-right. The rise in power of Western Ukraine shows at what point Central Ukraine, which is the majority, is atomized, incapable of organizing itself, in a state of pre-statehood.

The confrontation playing itself out between the Ukrainian far-right and the pro-Russians in Eastern Ukraine makes evident the historical inexistence of the country. The Western Ukrainians want to adhere to Europe. This is perfectly normal as far as they are concerned: why would extreme-right movements which have a tradition of collaborating with Nazi Germany refuse to join a Europe under German control?

All this said, this exceptional Ukrainian catch has not yet been bagged by Germany. The game, or rather the war, is only beginning.

As for the Central Ukrainians, I think that the question has been taken care of. The system will continue disintegrating: the GDP will contract, the situation will get worse, and I think that this is the real reason why the Russians are so prudent, are so little inclined to go to war and, contrarily to what is being asserted, do not want to annex bits and pieces of Ukraine. Russia is not afraid of Western sanctions. But it does not want to become hated in Central Ukraine. In its central mass, Ukraine is mistrustful of Russia at the present stage, but one must recognize to the Russians a great historical capacity to play with space and time. After two years of being handled by German Europe, what will the people of Kiev think? Maybe they will want to return to Moscow. A disintegrating system does not adhere, it continues disintegrating.

OB: Let’s return to the global might of the American system, which is so far away from Ukraine, and therefore has very little capacity to benefit from its integration-disintegration through the « Western system.»

ET: The American system, according to Zbigniew Brzezinski, is the control by the United States of the two great industrial regions of Eurasia, Japan and Germany. But this can function only under the condition of the hypothesis where America itself is clearly superior in terms of industrial weight (see table on the right )

As early as 1928, the American industrial production represented 45% of the total world industrial output. After the war, in 1945, America still represented 45%. Now America is down to 17.5 %: the Brzezinski system of a control of Eurasia cannot hold in regard of the present numbers. As I observed in After the Empire, its economic exchanges with Ukraine are insignificant. In Eastern Europe, NATO is in fact securing a German space. One should re-actualize, for the sake of Washington, the French expression “to wage war for the King of Prussia".

OB: In such a context, what future can there be for German-American relations?

ET: If you live in the enchanted world of the presently dominant ideology of the newspaper Le Monde, of François Hollande, which is also the ideology of naive anti-imperialists, the Western block, a union of America and Europe, with its ward Japan, must and can contain Russia. In the hypothesis that presuppose  a good strategic understanding and a strong collaboration between partners, the West could defeat the Russian economy. Maybe… But then there is China, India, Brazil, the world is big…

But if we move into the world of strategic realism, which sees the reality of the relationships of power without a reference to real or mythic values, we see that there exist presently two great developed industrial worlds, America on the one side and this new German empire on the other. Russia is a secondary question. We must therefore foresee a completely different future for the twenty years to come than the East-West conflict: the rise in power of the German system suggests that the United States and Germany are moving in the direction of conflict. This is an intrinsic logic founded upon relations of force and domination. In my view it is unrealistic to foresee a peaceful co-existence for the future.

Yet at this stage, we may reintroduce the notion of value. But precisely in order to stress that, for an anthropologist, in his own way a realist, or for a historian of the long term, the United States and Germany do not share the same values. Confronted with the economic stress of the Great Depression, America, the country of liberal democracy, produced Roosevelt, whereas Germany, a country of an authoritarian and non-egalitarian culture, produced Hitler.

Granted that the belief of Americans in equality is very relative. The United States are the leading country in the rise of economic inequalities – even when putting aside segregation towards the Blacks, a problem which is far from having been solved, as can be seen from the riots in Ferguson. But it is also, at the present stage, a leading country

But it is also, at the present stage, a leading country  in its attempt to create a unified world, with populations of very diverse origins. In this sense, the election of Obama remains strongly symbolic, despite the evident wear and tear shown by the President during his second term.

If one takes only into account the corpus of citizens of Germany, we can say that the rise of inequalities remains very reasonable, much lower to what we can observe in the Anglo-American world. But if one observes the German system in its European globality, integrating the low salaries of Eastern Europe and the compressions of salaries in the South, one can identify a system of a much stronger un-egalitarian domination in a state of gestation. The equality in this case is left as a concern for only the dominant, German citizens.

At this stage, I will take up this concept of political science of the Belgian anthropologist Pierre van den Berghe : the Herrenvolk democracy, that, is the democracy of the master people. Now don’t jump to the ceiling! These words are not going to bring down the world – I have recently expressed myself in these terms in an interview with the German newspaper Die Zeit.

At the beginning, Pierre van den Berghe was applying this concept of an ethnic democracy to apartheid South Africa, where there existed a corpus of equal citizens which was functioning perfectly well according to the liberal and democratic rules, but whose liberty and democracy could only hold because there existed these dominated groups. It was the same for America at the time of segregation: the internal equality of the white group was assured by its domination over the Indians, the Blacks… One could in the same way characterize Israel as being a Herrenvolk democracy. What cohesion and liberty there is in the Israeli democracy is bolstered by the existence of an enemy mass of Arabs.

If I had to describe present day Europe, if I had to comment the economic map at the political level, I would say that Europe, or the German Empire, is beginning to take the general shape of a Herrenvolk democracy with, at its heart, a German democracy reserved for the dominating people and, around it, a whole hierarchy of populations more or less dominated, whose votes no longer have any importance. It is easier to understand, in such a model, why, when one elects a President in France, nothing happens. Because he no longer has any power: particularly not on the monetary system.

So one finds oneself in a democracy in which the liberties of the press, of opinion, and others, are perfectly respected; where there is no problem but where, fundamentally, the stability of the system rests on the subconscious solidarity inside the dominating group. In the Europe taking shape, one can see the Germans as the Whites in segregation America.

Presently, political inequality is evidently stronger in the German system than in the American system. The Greeks and others cannot vote in the elections to the Bundestag, whereas the Blacks and the Latinos can vote in presidential and congressional elections. The European Parliament is baloney, the American Congress is not.

OB: After such an indictment, do you think that we should be more vigilant to-wards Germany?

ET: It’s true that I am pessimistic. The probability that Germany will turn out right is getting lower every day. It is quite small already. The authoritarian German culture  generates a systemic mental instability of the leaders when they are in a situation of domination – something that has not happened since the war. Their frequent historical incapacity – in a situation of dominance – of imagining a peaceful and reasonable future for everybody re-emerges today in the form of an export mania.

To this is now added, for these leaders, the interaction with Polish absurdity and Ukrainian violence. Sadly, the fate of Germany doesn’t appear to me as a total unknown.

In what way will the Germans turn wrong? The median age or the absence of a military apparatus may put a brake to the process, but one notices every week a radicalization in the German posture. Contempt for the English, for the Americans, shameless visit of Merkel to Kiev. The relationship to the French, the voluntary servitude of whom is essential for the control of Europe, will be revelatory.

But we know already. With the affair of the sales of the Mistral to Russia: the German leaders are now asking the French to liquidate whatever military industry they have left. The German culture is un-egalitarian: it makes difficult the acceptance of a world of equals. When they are feeling that they are the strongest, the Germans will take very badly the refusal of the weaker to obey, a refusal which they perceive as unnatural, unreasonable.

In France, it would rather be the contrary. Disobedience is a positive value. One lives with it, it’s part of the French charm because in France, too, there exists a mysterious potential for order and efficiency.

The relationship of America to discipline and inequality is complex in another way, and would deserve many pages of analysis. Let’s be brief and jump to the conclusion: a disciplined inferior-superior rapport of the German type will not pass easily. Anglo-Saxon culture is not egalitarian but it is truly liberal. Equal, unequal, it’s the same thing in the end. The reasonable difference made within families between brothers leads to the notion of a reasonable difference among individuals, among peoples. This is actually the reason for the success of the American model: the Anglo-American culture is capable of managing reasonably international differences.

In the end, we cannot but observe that both blocks – the American and the German – are antagonist by nature. They combine all the elements which generate conflict: rupture in the brute economic balance, difference in values. The faster Russia will be out of the game, either broken or marginalized, the faster these differences will come to express themselves.

For me, the real historical question at present, the one nobody is asking, is the following: will the Americans accept to see this new reality of a Germany which is threatening them, and if yes, when?

OB: When you are prophesizing a conflict between the American nation and the new German empire, are you sure of yourself?

ET: Of course not. I am only broadening the prospective field. I am describing one possible future among other possible futures. Another would be a solidifying of the group Russia-China-India in a continental block opposing the Western Euro-American block. But this Eurasian block can only function with the addition of Japan, who alone  is capable of bringing it up to the Western technological level. But what will Japan do? For the time being, it is more loyal towards the United States than is Germany. But it might get tired of the old Western conflicts.

The present shock is paralyzing its rapprochement with Russia, which should be completely logical for it from the energetic and military point of view, an important element in the new political course engaged by the Japanese Prime Minister Abe. This is another risk for the United States, deriving from the new aggressive German course.

OB: Several futures are possible, but not an infinity; 4 or 5,maybe…

ET: I have gone back to reading science fiction in order to deep-cleanse my brain and open my mind. I much recommend an exercise of the same type to the people who are our leaders and who, without knowing where they are going, are pressing ahead with such a firm step.

 

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[Jul 24, 2014] La véritable raison pour laquelle les États-Unis se préoccupent tant de l'Ukraine tout en se foutant éperdument des Ukrainiens

atlantico.fr

The United States are working hard to identify the perpetrators of the attack against the plane of the Malaysian Airlines and were very quick to point the finger at pro-Russian rebels.

Atlantico: The United States put a lot of efforts for blaming those who they consider to be the perpetrators of the attack against the plane of the Malaysian Airlines and were very quick to point the finger at pro-Russian. What interest do they have to point finger at Russia?

Jean-Bernard Pinatel: Since the fall of the Berlin Wall in November 1989, policy makers and American politicians perceived a major threat: that a reconciliation and an alliance between Europe and Russia would challenge the supremacy of the United States, which is allowing them with impunity to interfere in the internal affairs of any country, or invade them, and interpret international law in their private interests as most recently demonstrated the case of the BNP bank.

To understand this undeniable reality requires that we consider a historical context of those events.

In 1997, former National Security Adviser of the United States, Zbigniew Brzezinski, published under the title "The Grand Chessboard" a book adopting the two concepts, coined by Mackinder, Eurasia and "Heartland." He repeated his account his famous maxim: "who governs the Eastern Europe dominates the Heartland; who governs the Heartland dominates Eurasia; which governs the Eurasia dominates the World World. "

He makes the following conclusion: "For America, the chief geopolitical issue is Eurasia." In another publication (1), he make this though more explicit: "If Ukraine fell, he wrote, it would greatly reduce the geopolitical options for Russia. Even without the Baltic states and Poland, Russia, which would retain control of Ukraine could always aspire with confidence to the direction of a Eurasian empire. But without Ukraine and its 52 million Slav brothers and sisters, any attempt to Moscow to rebuild the Eurasian empire threatens to lead Russia in lengthy disputes with non-Slavic national and difference religious groups. ".

Between 2002 and 2004, to implement this strategy, the United States has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to help the pro-Western Ukrainian opposition to gain power. Millions of dollars also cooperation came from private institutes such as the Soros Foundation and European governments. This money does not go directly to political parties. He passed by including foundations and non-governmental organizations who advised the opposition, allowing it to be equipped with the technical resources and the latest advertising tools. An American cable from January 5, 2010, published on the WikiLeaks website (ref. 10WARSAW7) shows the involvement of Poland in color revolutions of former Eastern European countries. The role of NGOs is particularly exposed (2). The Wikileaks cables demonstrate continuous efforts and the continued commitment of the United States to extend their sphere of influence in Eastern Europe, and first of all in Ukraine.

Ukraine is undergoing a civil war. Yet nobody in the West denounced the ardor with which the Ukrainian government is trying to subdue the separatists. What is the real interest of Americans to ignore this reality and support the Ukrainian government? What did they gain?

The Ukrainian state is a construction of Stalin and exists independently only since 1991, after the breakup of the Soviet bloc. He previously existed between 1917 and 1921 between the fall of Tsarism in 1917 and the victory of the Bolsheviks that dismembered this new state into 4 parts. Ex-Russian part of Ukraine, with Kiev as its capital, the birthplace of civilization and Russian culture was integrated with the USSR while the former Austrian part, with Lviv's as the local capital was absorbed by the Poland.

Little Ukraine "Transcarpathia" voted for unification with Czechoslovakia and in Bukovina Ukrainian minority resigned himself to unification with Romania.

But Ukraine does not mean a nation. Ukrainians have no common history. Quite the contrary. During the second world war, when in the summer of 1941, Ukraine was invaded by the armies of the Reich, the Germans were received as liberators by the Western part of Ukraine. In contrast in the Easten Ukraine, they met strong resistance from the local population which continued until 1944

In retaliation, the Germans track down supporters and burned hundreds of villages. In April 1943, an SS division Galicia is made from Ukrainian volunteers whose descendants formed the storm troops of the EuroMaidan. This SS division was also used by the Germans in Slovakia to suppress the Slovak national movement. But Ukrainian and American pro-Western did everything at the end of the war, to throw a veil over the atrocities committed by this division and retain only the anti-Soviet struggle. However, historians estimate more than 220,000 Ukrainians enlisted alongside the German forces during the Second World War to fight the Soviet regime.

This history helps explain why civil war is possible and why the part of Ukrainian forces consisting of troops from the West can use tanks and planes against separatists from the East.

Ukrainian President with the complicity of silence of the majority of politicians and Western media launched a war against part of the population of the country with the same cruelty that is attributed to Syrian dictator. In addition, the Ukrainian armed forces are advised by American special forces and mercenaries.

The USA and Obama was provoke Russia into invasion of Ukraine in order to revive the cold war between the West and the East. Putin has understood the trap "Nobel Peace Winner" Obama created for him. First he advised the Ukrainian separatists not to hold the referendum; then he did not recognize its result and showed a moderation which surprised all independent observers while tanks and planes indiscriminately attack a Russian-speaking population.

How Ukraine can prevent the creation of a Europe-Russia alliance? Why the United States so actively try to prevent it?

The Americans continued to put pressure on Europe in order to integrate Ukraine and Georgia into NATO, which would constitute an unacceptable provocation to Russia.

Fortunately, European leaders have not bent to the will of Washington, which in this case acts solely in its own interests. Similarly, if Putin gave in to pressure from ultra-nationalist and openly intervened in Ukraine, the United States would achieved their strategic goal and the Cold War in Europe would be restarted damaging our fundamental interests.

Why Europe acts as vassal of the USA? Does it really interested to follow the American strategy?

Many European leaders got their education in the United States. They are members of American "Think-Tanks" or "transatlantic foundations" such as the "American Foundation" which largely finance their benefits and travel. The Atlanticism is certainly manufactured not only by the awareness that we share the same democratic values ​​with the American people but also by the multitude of personal interests of many European leaders whose standard of living depends on their submission to the will of the USA.

Nevertheless, more and more Europeans are beginning to tell the difference between the American state which is, in fact, run by lobbies, the most important of which is the military-industrial lobby and the American nation whose values ​​and economic and cultural dynamism possess an undeniable attractiveness and remains for young European wonderful school.

Angela Merkel and the Germans are at the forefront of this awareness because they have not accepted the permanent industrial espionage which the NSA use against this country. Furthermore, the revelation of the laptop plays Angela Merkel strongly shocked the country. Spiegel of November 3, 2013 claiming that now even political asylum for Edward Snowden in on the agenda. In the article "Asil Für Snowden" Europe's biggest daily published extensive excerpts of his revelations.

On 10 July 2014, the German government announced the expulsion of the head of the American secret services in Germany, as part of a spy case against German officials who provided intelligence information to Washington, a move unprecedented among allies within NATO. "The representative of the United States Intelligence Agency at the Embassy of the United States of America was asked to leave Germany," said the government spokesman Steffen Seibert said in a statement. The expulsion comes "in response to a lack of cooperation that was long in efforts to clarify" the activity of American intelligence agents in Germany, told a German MEP, Clemens Binninger, President of the Parliamentary Oversight Committee on intelligence, which met in Berlin on Thursday.

In France, the former Prime Minister Michel Rocard, a sociologist Edgar Morin, former ministers Luc Ferry and Jack Lang and former European MP Daniel Cohn-Bendit, launched a petition calling on President Francois Hollande, his Prime Minister Manuel Valse and Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius "promptly grant Edward Snowden political asylum.

Unfortunately for France and Europe, Francois Hollande, as part of the French intelligentsia, still admires Barack Obama, and Laurent Fabius for a long time received funds from U.S. foundations. Neither of them realize that their policies pose a threat to the strategic interests of France and Europe.

Jean-Bernard Pinatel, General, recognized expert on economic and geopolitical matters.

Original publication: La véritable raison pour laquelle les États-Unis se préoccupent tant de l'Ukraine tout en se foutant éperdument des Ukrainiens

Selected Comments

Opozdavshiy:

Neither Hollande nor Fabius did not care if their actions pose a threat to the strategic interests of France and Europe. Thos guys just spit on France and Europe. The key idea of neoliberal globalization is the elite can finally able to send their people and their problems to hell and concentrate on their own wellbeing. The idea to make elite independent from low lifes and rednecks of their own nations as now there is always the USA where they can escape the wrath of their own people.

[Jul 24, 2014] Provisional government was government of incompetent extremists. Shoes of Prime Minister proveed to be too big for Yatsenyuk

pravda.ru
The Verkhovna Rada Deputy from the Party of regions Mykola Levchenko specifically for Pravda.Ru commented resignation of Arseniy 'Yatsenuyk.

"After the Maidan coup d'état the group of extremists which came to power people were totally unprepared for it. They are members of opposition by nature. They are good only for destruction and unable to anything constructive. After then got power, they remained members of opposition, they fight in Parliament, criticized everybody and everything, no matter what you did or not did.

They are organically unable to compromise, unable to negotiate which is necessary to do so, for anybody in power. This all led to such full-scale combat operations on South East. Today, they still cannot learn to work, to be responsible for the entire country.

In addition, they proved to be 100% pure Jacobins. After the revolution with their coming to power they rely on terror and started repression and persecution of dissidents. That was during the French bourgeois revolution. Unfortunately, all this happened again here in aggravated form.

As for the resignation of Yatsenyuk I can state that clearly he was not ready for the position he got. Shoes proved to be too big for him. "

[Jul 24, 2014] Bags. Airport. USA.

paulfrobinson, July 24, 2014 at 8:26 am
Yatseniuk resigns!
http://www.trust.org/item/20140724144712-ipkg5
cartman, July 24, 2014 at 8:32 am
That's Veruca Yats.

Bags. Airport. USA.

ThatJ , July 24, 2014 at 8:43 am
Or Tel-Aviv.

marknesop, July 24, 2014 at 11:37 am

Vicky Nuland will be SO disappointed: who is she going to parachute in now to take the reins of U.S.-diplomacy-once-removed? Make a note of that, Geoffrey – when we pick the Prime Minister of a country we're trying to bring under our thumb, always pick a backup, too.

I pick Parubiy. Ukraine is the only place crazy enough to elevate a psychopath like him to Prime Minister.

[Jul 24, 2014] Ukrainian prime minister Arseny Yatseniuk resigns by Shaun Walker

This is an official end of Provisional Goverment. Rats started leaving the sinking ship.
24 July 2014 | theguardian.com

Yatseniuk quits as he berates parliament for failing to pass law to increase army financing and regulate country's energy situation

Arseny Yatseniuk's impassioned speech underlined the frustration of many in Ukraine that change is taking too long. Photograph: Andrew Kravchenko/Government press service/EPA.

Ukraine's prime minister has resigned after the governing coalition collapsed, in a sign that five months after the Maidan protests led to a change of government, the country's political system is still beset by discord.

The government is struggling to defeat an insurgency by pro-Russian separatists in the east of the country, where a Malaysia Airlines jet was downed last Thursday.

Arseniy Yatsenyuk, one of the leaders of the Maidan protests, was seen by many Ukrainians as a safe pair of hands, with his mild manner and intellectual demeanour. But he grew angry during Ukraine's parliamentary session as it failed to pass legislation to increase army financing and regulate the country's energy situation.

"History will not forgive us," he told parliament. "Our government now has no answer to the questions – how are we to pay wages, how are we tomorrow morning going to send fuel for armoured vehicles, how will we pay those families who have lost soldiers, to look after the army?"

The president, Petro Poroshenko, welcomed the move, which will lead to new elections, saying: "Society wants a full reset of state authorities."

Although Ukrainians elected Poroshenko in May, there have yet to be new parliamentary elections since the former president, Viktor Yanukovych, fled. Yatsenyuk is likely to stay on in a caretaker role before a new poll.

Rumours are that Poroshenko wants to end the insurgency in the east before 24 August – Ukrainian independence day. The army has made significant gains in driving the rebels out of a number of towns, including the former stronghold of Slavyansk, but the separatists still control Donetsk, a city of 1 million, and much of the region around it.

[Jul 22, 2014] Ukraine war crimes trials a step closer after Red Cross assessment By Tom Miles

Jul 22, 2014 | Reuters

The Red Cross has made a confidential legal assessment that Ukraine is officially in a war, Western diplomats and officials say, opening the door to possible war crimes prosecutions, including over the downing of Malaysia Airlines MH-17.

"Clearly it's an international conflict and therefore this is most probably a war crime," one Western diplomat in Geneva told Reuters.

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) is the guardian of the Geneva Conventions setting down the rules of war, and as such is considered a reference in the United Nations deciding when violence has evolved into an armed conflict.

"Within the U.N. system, it's the ICRC that makes that determination. They are the gate keepers of international humanitarian law," said one U.N. source.

The ICRC has not made any public statement - seeking not to offend either Ukraine or Russia by calling it a civil war or a case of foreign aggression - but it has done so privately and informed the parties to the conflict, sources told Reuters.

"The qualification has been shared bilaterally and confidentially," ICRC spokeswoman Anastasia Isyuk told Reuters on Friday. "We do not discuss it publicly."

The designation as a war - either international or civil - changes the game legally, because it turns both sides into combatants with equal liability for war crimes, which have no statute of limitations and cannot be absolved by an amnesty.

Suspects may also be arrested abroad, since some countries apply "universal jurisdiction" to war crimes.

Without the designation, Ukrainian government forces would be responsible for protecting civilians and infrastructure under international human rights law, while separatists would only be liable under Ukraine's criminal laws.

"It changes their accountability on the international stage," said Andrew Clapham, director of the Geneva Academy of International Humanitarian Law and Human Rights. "This makes individuals more likely to be prosecuted for war crimes."

Dutch prosecutors have opened an investigation into the crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH-17 on suspicion of murder, war crimes and intentionally downing an airliner, a spokesman said on Monday. [ID:nL6N0PW2VI]

Based on the Law on International Crimes, the Netherlands can prosecute any individual who committed a war crime against a Dutch citizen. The 298 people who were killed when the plane was downed over Ukraine included 193 Dutch citizens.

Russian President Vladimir Putin said in May that the country had collapsed into civil war, while Ukraine regards the conflict as a war involving Russian aggression.


(Reporting by Tom Miles; editing by Stephanie Nebehay/Jeremy Gaunt)

[Jul 22, 2014] Yury Birukov about breaking from the encirclement

Jul 22, 2014 | youtube.com
Southerncross says:

July 24, 2014 at 7:44 am

From the milphotos thread:

User-posted summary:

Summary:
"There is now any CTO over there, it is full-scale war with tanks, artillery and aviation. And our forces are depleting.

Senior officers and generals literally don't give a heck about this war. Their HQ near Amrosievka is shamelessly fancy. White and clean tablecloths, nice meals, great tents, adjutants, even sauna. But most important issue is dozens of their bodyguards. They are scared *****less if they have to ride to the combat zone. They arrive in armoured column, all clean and shiny, but no matter the odds they try to return back before the sunset. However, recently their camp was hit with Grad. "I do hope that now they'll understand that shrapnel gives their chubby bellies the same treatment as to grunts."

Junior officers and sergeants prefer not to report anything regarding movements of their units tothe commanding officers. Because if they do, the data of this column will be immediately given to separatists => ambush is inevitable => KIAs are inevitable. The amount of bust**rds and sc*m in HQ is higher beyond comprehension. NatiGuard recieved even worse treatment, some officers are very angry at NatiGuard, they think this war is their very fault, so they whistleblow all data regarding them to the separatists, who do not take "nazi-prisoners" alive.

Sheer amount of lies, BS-talkings, hoorah-patrotism is nondimensional. Everyone from colonel to Mr minister of defence, including Parubiy, Poroshenko and Avakov live in their own world, where seps are killed in thousands daily, UA army is supplied with everything.

Awesome plans of mobilization is pure BS. To become experienced unit must go through fire and blood, smell stench of the gunpowder, witness gore and guts on the ground, spend night under direct fire. It is complete idiotism to expect professionalism from yesterday's students, workers, managers, salesmen, artists, unemployed who are torn away from their peacful lives and throun right into the grinder. They do no understand where they are sent, war is distant for them.

He is certain that in the short time all these liars, idiots and traitors will be cleansed and kicked away from the army."

Волонтер "Крыльев Феникса" рассказал подробности прорыва 79-й бригады из оцепления российских террористов.
http://nikvesti.com/news/politics/56469

Генералы имеют сауны и фитнес-центры в тылу штаба АТО -- их лагерь сегодня накрыло "Градом"
http://nikvesti.com/news/politics/56470

[Jul 20, 2014] The downing of the Malaysia Airlines passenger plane has exposed the chaos in Ukraine as a real war By Anne Applebaum

While it is absurd to rely of Anne Applebaum judgment, the neocon wife of Polish foreign minister is right about one thing: This is official end of EuroMaidan, so to speak. Now we can talk only about civil war with all its irrationality and cruelty...
slate.com

Without the fairy-tale pretense, some things are about to become clear. For one, we are about to learn whether the West in 2014 is as united, and as determined to stop terrorism as it was 26 years ago. When the Libyan government brought down Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, in 1988, the West closed ranks and isolated the Libyan regime. Can we do the same now-or will too many be tempted to describe this as a "tragic accident," and to dismiss what will inevitably be a controversial investigation as "inconclusive?" It is insufficient to state, as President Obama has now done, that there must be a "cease-fire" in Ukraine. What is needed is a withdrawal of Russian mercenaries, weapons, and support. The West-and the world-must push for Ukrainian state sovereignty to be reestablished in eastern Ukraine, not for the perpetuation of another frozen conflict.


We will also learn something interesting about the Russian president. So far there is no sign of shock or shame in Russia. But in truth, this tragedy offers Vladimir Putin an opportunity to get out of the messy disaster he has created in eastern Ukraine. He now has the perfect excuse to denounce the separatist movement and to cut its supplies. If he refuses, then we know that he remains profoundly dedicated to the chaos and nihilism he created in Donetsk. We can assume he intends to perpetuate it elsewhere. And if we are not prepared to fight it, we should be braced for it to spread.

Facts Needed on Malaysian Plane Shoot-Down by Ray McGovern

July 19, 2014 | antiwar.com

It will likely take some time to determine who downed the Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777 over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people onboard. Initial speculation is that someone with a missile battery mistook the plane as a military aircraft, but the precise motive may be even harder to discern.

Given the fog of war and the eagerness among the various participants to wage "information warfare," there is also the possibility that evidence – especially electronic evidence – might be tampered with to achieve some propaganda victory.

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko immediately labeled the tragedy "a terrorist act" although there was no evidence that anyone intentionally shot down the civilian airliner. But Poroshenko and others in the Kiev government have previously designated the ethnic Russians, who are resisting the Feb. 22 overthrow of elected President Viktor Yanukovych, as "terrorists" so Poroshenko's bellicose language was not a surprise.

For their part, the separatist rebels in eastern Ukraine denied responsibility for the crash – saying they lacked anti-aircraft missiles that could reach the 33,000-foot altitude of the Malaysian airliner – but there are reasons to suspect the rebels, including their previously successful efforts to shoot down Ukrainian military aircraft operating in the war zone.

On Thursday, Russian President Vladimir Putin deflected questions about who may have fired the missile as he called for an international investigation. But he made a telling point when he noted that the "tragedy would not have happened if military actions had not been renewed in southeast Ukraine."

Those likely to agree with that statement include German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Francois Hollande who, during a lengthy four-way conference call with Poroshenko on June 30, tried desperately to get him to prolong the ceasefire. Only the U.S. voiced support for Poroshenko's decision to spurn that initiative and order Ukrainian forces into a major offensive in the east.

It was in the context of Ukrainian forces using their airpower to strike rebel positions that led to the rebels' efforts to neutralize that advantage by deploying anti-aircraft missiles that have achieved some success in downing Ukrainian military planes. The Ukrainian military is also known to possess anti-aircraft batteries scattered throughout the country.

Raw Meat for Russia Bashing

But the chance to further demonize Putin and Russia will be hard for Official Washington and its corporate-owned press to resist. The New York Times was quick out of the starting blocks on Friday with a lead editorial blaming the entire Ukraine conflict, including the Malaysian Airline tragedy, on Putin:

"There is one man who can stop it – President Vladimir Putin of Russia, by telling the Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine to end their insurgency and by stopping the flow of money and heavy weapons to those groups."

Among Putin's alleged offenses, according to the Times, has been his "failing to support a cease-fire and avoiding serious, internationally mediated negotiations" – though Putin has actually been one of principal advocates for both a cease-fire and a negotiated solution. It has been the U.S.-backed Poroshenko who canceled the previous cease-fire and has refused to negotiate with the ethnic Russian rebels until they essentially surrender.

But the death of all 298 people onboard the Malaysian Airline flight, going from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, will surely provide plenty of fuel for the already roaring anti-Russian propaganda machine. Still, the U.S. press might pause to recall how it's been manipulated by the U.S. government in the past, including three decades ago by the Reagan administration twisting the facts of the KAL-007 tragedy.

In that case, a Soviet fighter jet shot down a Korean Air Line plane on Sept. 1, 1983, after it strayed hundreds of miles off course and penetrated some of the Soviet Union's most sensitive airspace over military facilities in Kamchatka and Sakhalin Island.

Over Sakhalin, KAL-007 was finally intercepted by a Soviet Sukhoi-15 fighter. The Soviet pilot tried to signal the plane to land, but the KAL pilots did not respond to the repeated warnings. Amid confusion about the plane's identity - a U.S. spy plane had been in the vicinity hours earlier - Soviet ground control ordered the pilot to fire. He did, blasting the plane out of the sky and killing all 269 people on board.

The Soviets soon realized they had made a horrendous mistake. U.S. intelligence also knew from sensitive intercepts that the tragedy had resulted from a blunder, not from a willful act of murder (much as on July 3, 1988, the USS Vincennes fired a missile that brought down an Iranian civilian airliner in the Persian Gulf, killing 290 people, an act which President Ronald Reagan explained as an "understandable accident").

But a Soviet admission of a tragic blunder regarding KAL-007 wasn't good enough for the Reagan administration, which saw the incident as a propaganda windfall. At the time, the felt imperative in Washington was to blacken the Soviet Union in the cause of Cold War propaganda and to escalate tensions with Moscow.

Falsifying the Case

To make the very blackest case against Moscow, the Reagan administration suppressed the exculpatory evidence from the U.S. electronic intercepts. The U.S. mantra became "the deliberate downing of a civilian passenger plane." Newsweek ran a cover emblazoned with the headline "Murder in the Sky."

"The Reagan administration's spin machine began cranking up," wrote Alvin A. Snyder, then-director of the U.S. Information Agency's television and film division, in his 1995 book, Warriors of Disinformation.

USIA Director Charles Z. Wick "ordered his top agency aides to form a special task force to devise ways of playing the story overseas. The objective, quite simply, was to heap as much abuse on the Soviet Union as possible," Snyder recalled.

Snyder noted that "the American media swallowed the U.S. government line without reservation. Said the venerable Ted Koppel on the ABC News 'Nightline' program: 'This has been one of those occasions when there is very little difference between what is churned out by the U.S. government propaganda organs and by the commercial broadcasting networks.'"

On Sept. 6, 1983, the Reagan administration went so far as to present a doctored transcript of the intercepts to the United Nations Security Council (a prelude to a similar false presentation two decades later by Secretary of State Colin Powell on Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction).

"The tape was supposed to run 50 minutes," Snyder said about recorded Soviet intercepts. "But the tape segment we [at USIA] had ran only eight minutes and 32 seconds. … 'Do I detect the fine hand of [Richard Nixon's secretary] Rosemary Woods here?' I asked sarcastically.'"

But Snyder had a job to do: producing the video that his superiors wanted. "The perception we wanted to convey was that the Soviet Union had cold-bloodedly carried out a barbaric act," Snyder wrote.

Only a decade later, when Snyder saw the complete transcripts - including the portions that the Reagan administration had hidden - would he fully realize how many of the central elements of the U.S. presentation were false.

The Soviet fighter pilot apparently did believe he was pursuing a U.S. spy plane, according to the intercepts, and he was having trouble in the dark identifying the plane. At the instructions of Soviet ground controllers, the pilot had circled the KAL airliner and tilted his wings to force the aircraft down. The pilot said he fired warning shots, too. "This comment was also not on the tape we were provided," Snyder wrote.

It was clear to Snyder that in the pursuit of its Cold War aims, the Reagan administration had presented false accusations to the United Nations, as well as to the people of the United States and the world. To these Republicans, the ends of smearing the Soviets had justified the means of falsifying the historical record.

In his book, Snyder acknowledged his role in the deception and drew an ironic lesson from the incident. The senior USIA official wrote, "The moral of the story is that all governments, including our own, lie when it suits their purposes. The key is to lie first." [For more details on the KAL-007 deception and the history of U.S. trickery, see Consortiumnews.com's "A Dodgy Dossier on Syrian War."]

Reliability of U.S. Intelligence

It was not always this way. There was a time when the U.S. government wouldn't risk its credibility for a cheap propaganda stunt, knowing that there are moments when it is crucial for the world to believe what U.S. officials say.

Some of us will remember when, in 1962, U.S. Ambassador to the UN Adlai Stevenson showed the Security Council U-2 photographs of fledgling Soviet offensive missile bases in Cuba. It was the perfect squelch to the Soviets and their allies trying to sow doubt about the truth behind President John F. Kennedy's allegations.

Sadly, the credibility of U.S. officials and American intelligence is now at rock bottom. One need only think back on the evidence adduced to "prove" the existence of WMD in Iraq. "The intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy" is what the head of British intelligence told Prime Minister Tony Blair on July 23, 2002, after conferring with CIA Director George Tenet at CIA headquarters on July 20.

I also have grown more and more suspicious of the official U.S. government account about the crash of TWA-800 on July 17, 1996. Shortly after departing Kennedy Airport in New York, the plane exploded off Long Island with 230 people killed. More than 100 eyewitnesses reported seeing an object they described variously as a "missile," "flare" or "rocket" rise up into the sky and merge with TWA Flight 800.

The immediate suspicion was that the disaster was an act of terrorism, although some speculation focused on the presence of U.S. Navy missile-carrying warships in the area. However, after raising much of the plane's wreckage from the sea bottom, the National Transportation Safety Board and Justice Department/FBI dismissed the eyewitness accounts of a missile and concluded instead that the explosion was caused by an electrical malfunction.

To help in selling this version, the CIA "technical experts" working under CIA Director George Tenet – yes, the same fellow who described the Iraq WMD evidence as a "slam dunk" – were enlisted to prepare a video artfully designed to discredit the missile claims. But the TWA800 Project Investigative Team – a determined group of engineers, scientists, eyewitnesses and journalists – have continued to challenge the official findings, including the CIA video. [To see the team's rebuttal, click here.]

Quite aside from the likelihood that CIA exceeded its authority with its involvement in this domestic issue, it pains me as a former CIA analyst that my former colleagues would take part in this kind of deception, producing a video that was unprofessional at best and fraudulent at worst.

So, there is, sadly, additional reason to kick the tires of any fancy truck carrying "intelligence" offered by the U.S. with respect to the Malaysian Airline shoot-down on Thursday.

Ray McGovern works with Tell the Word, a publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour in inner-city Washington. He came to Washington over 50 years ago and worked as a CIA analyst under seven Presidents, one less than Gates. Ray now serves on the Steering Group of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS).

Reprinted with permission from Consortium News.

[Jul 20, 2014] Putin already lost the propaganda war

sinotibetan , July 20, 2014 at 4:02 am

Hello all,
It's a very long time since I commented as I don't regularly follow the happenings within Russia that much nowadays. It's unfortunate that my country lost another civilian aircraft yet again.

I just want to say that Putin already lost the propaganda war – in my country and most of the world. CNN, BBC, Guardian etc. are just too influential and deemed 'impartial' by most people in my country. If you ask me who shot the plane – I'd say wait for the conclusion of investigators but I have a bad feeling that we will never know what really took place. To be honest, I am inclined to think the 'pro-Russian rebels' mistakenly shot the plane although I would not be surprised if it turned out the Ukrainian military did it. Whatever it is, Putin lost in this propaganda war. No matter how, he is already considered a 'mass murderer' and responsible for 'the deaths of innocent people' in my country and in the eyes of most people of the world.

example:
http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/269304

I think Putin made a mistake in not acting decisively on Eastern Ukraine. He should have either left the pro-Russian rebels abandoned to their own devices or annexed Eastern Ukraine and brave the wrath of the West. Now, the Western hawks are all behind Ukraine. I see Putin has not much choice diplomatically Perhaps, a world war is looming – thanks to Western hawkish stupidity.

sinotibetan

Al , July 20, 2014 at 4:54 am

It does seem like that but it is far from over. 'Winning' the propaganda war though is only one side of the coin and the smoke hasn't even cleared yet.

A) Can the West effectively exploit this to its advantage in the Ukraine?

I don't see how this could work. What they've come up with is barely circumstantial and cannot be constituted as a hanging offense for Russia. The coalescing (non political) view seems to be that it was an accident. How far can you run with something like that?;

B) Lasting damage to Russia's reputation. Is this going to hit trade between Russia and non-Western countries in the short term, let alone the medium to long term?

For capitalists, it is only a passing issue unless there is an actual war or sanctions become serious. Both major businesses in the US and Europe have come out publicly against sanctions that could seriously hit trade with Russia. Russia's ties with Asia and elsewhere are only but expanding, where countries have the money to pay whist the West remain the economic sick men.

C) Will it change political relations significantly?

Neither Germany nor the Netherlands look like they are going to be bounced in to quick action that follows the Washington/London line. The strategic issue of what to do with Russia has not gone away and is simply much bigger than the current conflict in the Ukraine. At some time ground rules will need to be negotiated between Russia and the EU, probably behind closed doors. Laying in personally to Putin would be counter intuitive diplomatically. These countries still need Russian 'help' or acquiescence in multiple problems around the world.

What if?
What if Kiev is pinned for this? It already has some blame for letting flights go over its airspace.* It cannot be fully absolved in any case.

The damage would be immense and widespread, taking in NATO, trans-atlantic relations etc. Simply walking away and saying it was a mistake and expecting everything to remain the same will not be possible even if they try.

What happened is beyond horrible and there's plenty of disgust to spread around for those milking it amorally for their own political purposes. Nothing has changed.

* Sydney Morning Herald: Ukraine responsible for airspace safety: IATA
http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/ukraine-responsible-for-airspace-safety-iata-20140720-zuzmp.html

Fern , July 20, 2014 at 5:18 am

Al, you ask "what if Kiev is pinned for this?" No problem, it can be easily spun. Depending on whether the US wants to keep Pork Chop, it can be spun a number of ways such as it was a rogue unit or an attempted coup against Pork Chop and he and his cabinet knew nothing about it, they were misled by elements within their own intelligence services. This is a god one since the US then has the excuse to get involved in making Ukraine's intelligence services more 'professional'. Alternatively, if Pork Chop is for the chop so to speak, it can be described as sheer incompetence, the Ukrainian government were all for putting their hands up to it but Pork Chop overruled them and so he has to go. Or even it was done by a Ukrainian unit that had been tortured by the rebels and were suffering from PTSD and worthy of our sympathy and understanding.

The West has had decades of experience at this sort of thing. And the MSM will follow the party line like a flock of starlings without any apparent awareness that they were flying in one direction and are now flying in the opposite one.

Al , July 20, 2014 at 5:37 am

I'm not so sure Fern. Such spinnings may have worked very well in the past but us general voting cattle are no longer related to the brass monkeys of old.

We see this reflected more and more in comments sections of news items where more and more people say "Well how is this different from anything we/our government do/does?"). This view is in part driven by disappointment by the failings of our own governments and seeing decisive leaders in action (Putin), i.e. the grass is greener on the other side syndrome, but this is still people actively making this view public, not some anonymous passive poll taking with the usual fixed or leading questions.

The complete contradictions become harder and harder to ignore and are amplified when our media simply ignore them and other basic questions you would expect even the greenest of journalists to ask.

Sure, most people do not spend obsessive amounts of time on public forums picking over everything, but the method is clearly repeated over and over and over again. Memory can be refreshed by a simple internet search.

I think that finally public consciousness has caught up with the cynical and amoral games our leaders have been playing since time immemorial and also might have something to do with the recognition of the West's current and relative diminishing of its global powers. We've all become extremely cynical.

As for the rest of the world, I see similar cynicism yet more hope for the future.

These are extraordinary times we are living in and it is really difficult to look at ongoing events with an impartial perspective even if you try, but at least us commenters here on Mark's blog recognize this.

Al, July 20, 2014 at 5:38 am

I forgot to add, until the next disaster or shock. It's all a bit depressing for an optimist like me!

yalensis

July 20, 2014 at 6:05 am

Along those lines, I did notice a subtle shift in Western MSM coverage starting today.
The comments gently chiding Ukraine about its aviation "negligence", and such-like.

Is the start of a walking-back and preparation of mass lemming consciousness for the "revelation" that Ukes might have accidentally shot the missile?

July 20, 2014 at 6:12 am

Fingers crossed. Although a 'no conclusive evidence, truth may never be known, all Russia's fault for annexing Danzig' cop-out is more likely than an outright admission of possible Uke fault.

yalensis , July 20, 2014 at 6:00 am

Is probably true that the West "won the propaganda war".
Which would be the case if people around the world are stupid enough to regard channels like the "BBC" and "CNN" as dispassionate, objective sources (as opposed to mouthpieces for their respective governments).

In which case, if Russia already lost the propaganda war, then it is all the more urgent that the Rebels win the "real war".
The one on the ground.

In which case, Russia needs to start arming and supporting the Rebs with all due urgency. Otherwise, if Strelkov is right, the Rebels will be defeated, and then Russia will have lost 2 wars, both propaganda and actual.

And then, following such a defeat, Russia will also lose Crimea again and have to hand over Crimea and the entire Black Sea to NATO.
.
(Channelling Karl here, but his dire predictions have been right about a lot of things….)

karl1haushofer , July 20, 2014 at 6:34 am

Does anyone else have a desire to just quit following the whole Ukraine mess and reading Russia related articles in mainstream media? I think I am having this moment right now.

Russia is being attacked from all fronts in our (Finnish) mainstream media. Multiple articles and op-eds are being written every day and the tone is getting more hateful and aggressive all the time. Each story is being spun in favor of Kiev/West and against Russia. I'm certain that Russia has never received this much of hatred and venom in Finland since the days of war.

Being a dissident in this environment is getting pretty hard. A few years ago there were some Russia friendly commentators in news comment sections, but most of them have disappeared. That mat at least partly be a result of censorship. In Helsingin Sanomat my messages are being systematically censored. Some of the messages were published but were later deleted by the moderators.

I also created an account to a Finnish military forum called maanpuolustus.net. 100% of the folks there were pro-West and pro-Kiev. I posted some Youtube videos about Kiev atrocities in eastern Ukraine and my account was immediately banned.

The media of my country claims to be "free", but I feel like living in a media dictatorship where only the "correct" and "patriotic" views are allowed. Being anti-Russian is part of the Finnish patriotism. You cannot be a true Finnish patriot unless you either directly hate Russia or pretend to be "concerned about human rights/democracy in Russia" and by that way conceal your hatred behind these "concerns".

Reading the mainstream media only makes me angered and it is not healthy. It is a nice summer so why should I ruin my mood with this? Trying to fight an anti-Russian propaganda in our media is like trying to swim uphill. You are being either censored or banned, or you are being attacked and blamed being a Kremlin troll.

yalensis , July 20, 2014 at 6:43 am

Dear Karl:
For your psychological health, I would recommend just taking a rest from the news, at least for a while. Go off somewhere, and enjoy your summer!
Life is too short to suffer when you don't have to.

As for the rest of the Finns, screw' em!

yalensis, July 20, 2014 at 6:40 am

Along the theme of "Forget the propaganda war, Rebels MUST win the Real War", here is an opinion piece by Boris Kagarlitsky, from yesterday. This is one of the best political analyses I have seen, how this war in Ukraine relates to Russian politics.

PARTIAL TRANSLATION
At the beginning of July, Novorossiya was saved by a whisker. Having avoided he catastrophic defeat that was prepared for it by "Fifth Column" in Donetsk as well as the "Sixth Column" in Moscow [yalensis: I think he means, not so much the ineffectual White Ribbon types, as the neo-liberal types who hang around the Kremlin), the Peoples Republics were able to deliver a strategic defeat to the junta. From this point on, a turning point in the war is possible. But this depends not only on what happens at the Front.

(...)

The shattering Igor Strelkov's grouping [in Slav'ansk] would have paved the way [for junta troops to enter] Donetsk from 3 directions, without any threats to their flanks. This would have pleased the Moscow liberals. But History decided otherwise. The reinforcing of Slav'ansk and the bold actions of the Resistance prevented the triumphal march of the National Guard throug Donbass. Thus was averted the junta's Plan B, which was based on the work of traitors. [yalensis: Here, once again, I believe that Kagarlitsky has Kurgin'an in mind!] The main forces of the Resistance were supposed to remain in place and continue to defend Slav'ansk, while at the same time the "Fifth Column" was supposed to open the gates of Donetsk to the army of the "Punishers". The city (Donetsk) did not have adequate reinforcements, and within the leadership of the DPR sat some people who were loyal to Rinat Akhmetov. However, this Plan B collapsed at the beginning of July, just as Plan A had collapsed at the beginning of June.

(…)

There is still no (decisive) break in the war. But it could happen, if the Novorossiya republics can hold out until autumn(…) This doesn't fit in with the plans of the Kiev junta, nor with the plans of certain very influential people in Moscow. These latter were shocked by the setback to (Kiev's) latest plan. (…) Their shock at the planned "throwing of Novorossiya under the bus" gave rise to these rude attacks, on the part of the conservatives, against Strelkov.(…)

The civil war in the Ukraine has exposed the crisis of Russian politics. All the hopes and dreams of the (Russian) elites to avoid new conflicts with the EU and USA, have been shattered, because internal problems of the Western countries push them into a fight against the Russian government, and Russian capital [yalensis: "Capital" in the Marxist sense, not the capital of a country]. The Kremlin's timid attempt to allow some integration of post-Soviet economies is regarded by Brussels and Washington as an act of aggression, as a threat to the neo-liberal order in Eurasia. And, moreover, the betrayal of Novorossiya by the "Sixth Column" would not have changed a thing, except for the fact that USA and EU, taking advantage of this situation, would have struck ever more blows against Russia. Because this is the only way they can secure their hegemony.

The war in Ukraine has divided Russian society. It has divided both (traditional) "lefts" and "rights" into proponents of reaction; versus those who want to see (a genuine) socio-economic rebirth of the post-Soviet world. Those who support Novorossiya, regardless of their subjective inclinations and prejudices, are objectively supporting a social republic, a union of peoples, and an actual democracy (….) The people in power are also divided. But there, the struggle takes on a secretive character. The opinions of the Russian oligarchy, and the balance between liberal and non-liberal groupings within the government, as always remain the main obstacle for any Kremlin attempts to defend (Russia's) national interests.

(….)

[Jul 20, 2014] Donetsk might fall soon

forum-antikvariat.ru

From Strelkov:

Yesterday the enemy cut the last main highway linking the Donetsk with Lugansk and, accordingly, with Russia. Strong points of the enemy are now in the villages Beloye and Vesela Tarasovka. Now ukry hastily buried in the ground several dozens of tanks and armored personnel carriers, in order to exclude the possibility of breaking the defense.

... surrender of Tarasivka should be viewed in the operations scale as a strategic defeat!

Now we are cut off from the border - that is, from any supplies

At night the enemy went through the Tonenkoe to the airport of Donetsk, creating a network of base stations, each of which is protected 5-7 tanks.

Just now three Su bombers hit Saur-grave with heavy bombs. The results are not known yet. Boeing is used by Ukrow "to the fullest"... Aviation of ukrow dominates in the sky with impunity.

In the area of Grygorivka militia attacked the convoy of the enemy. The results are still need evaluation.

ThatJ, July 20, 2014 at 3:47 pm
Another interesting post:

Its really hard to say, there are many information coming out of Luhansk, most of them, as usually, plain propaganda BS. One of them is that political leadership of LPR fled the city and left militia commanders in charge. They still have that route to Krasnodon open, but they cannot afford to call for units in Krasnodon to come to their aid, otherwise Izvarino UA forces that are holding part of border area, cut from rest of UA units for god-knows-how-long would march to Krasnodon and closed the circle.

They cannot afford to call on Torez – Snizhne units because they are holding off southern flank and meanwhile UA forces are massing for past few days next to Amvrosiivka and MLRSing seps position near Saur Mogila, Amvrosiivka etc, certainly preparing for assault on Amvrosiivka.

And they´ve been cut off Mozgolev Severodonetsk group who is now under another assault. In Donetsk, Strelkov is meanwhile desperately trying to recruit as many locals as humanly possible, offering them thrice the average salary.

Their problem is that after Slaviansk they came to "not a step back" position. And they are under assault everywhere. And after MH17, UA forces can do whatever the hell they want and no one will raise an eyebrow. There will be no more calling from Berlin about direct peace talks between seps and Poroshenko. Seps AD operators will now think very, very carefully about launching another missile (that Antonov today came under AAA fire, not MANPAD and managed to perform emergency landing on friendly airport with minimal damage). And by assaulting western outskirts of Luhansk, UA forces cut the Donetsk – Luhansk – Krasnodon supply line shut. Meanwhile in US Congress, Congressmen are demanding supplying UA army with advanced weaponry (that is whole point of that act), Poland pretty much is already doing that and now even Angela Merkel said to Hollande that he should stop the Mistral transfer. And on Tuesday or Wednesday you will see more sanctions, possibly something more.

In other words, seps have a problem.

[Jul 20, 2014] Accusations Fly Over Ukraine Plane Crash, But Evidence Is Sketchy

Antiwar.com

The publicly offered evidence against everyone in the Malaysian Airlines MH17 crash remains as it was yesterday, sparse and of dubious trustworthiness. The rhetoric continues to pick up steam, however, with assorted Western officials continuing to pronounce absolute certainty as to the official truth, whatever it happens to be at any given time.

Broadly, it centers on proclamations of the Ukrainian rebels' guilt, and Russian culpability, though the narrative tends to be flexible, and yesterday's insistence of the rebels using a 9k37 Buk vehicle seized from Ukraine's military has, without explanation, transitioned into the vehicles being provided by Russia, of which Ukraine insists incontrovertible, though totally secret, proof.

The Obama Administration is similarly claiming evidence of rebel guilt, though their evidence too is being withheld, likely in anticipation of further changes to the official story.

As the accusations fly fast and freely, another new question has emerged. If, as Ukraine claims, it had so much proof of the rebels having such advanced anti-aircraft missiles, then why was the claim never made publicly until nearly a day after the crash. Likewise, Ukraine's claims of rebel shoot-downs of military aircraft in the leadup to the MH17 incident seem to be morphing, as it was only hours before that incident that Ukraine was insisting Russia's Air Force was directly behind the downing of their Su-25 warplanes.

The wreckage is still barely inspected, and Ukraine is throwing around claims of a cover-up, perhaps anticipating that their allegations will not be upheld when the evidence is examined.

But for most nations, particularly the US and other Western nations, the fallout of the incident is something to be shopped around for diplomatic advantage, with officials pushing Russia to forcibly end the east Ukrainian rebellion as some sort of payment for ending the hysterical anti-Russia rhetoric surrounding the entire incident. Russia so far seems content to hold out for actual evidence, but Western officials appear to believe it is a buyer's market, and that the perception of guilt is the real problem for Russia, not whether it is upheld by weeks of investigation.

[Jul 20, 2014] The MH17 Shoot Down over Ukraine

Veterans Today

At this time my provisional conclusion is that MH17 was shot down by an air defense battery of the Ukrainian army, from Ukrainian territory, using an SA-17 Buk missile. I respectfully associate myself with the statements of the Russian federal government on the issue.

My estimate is that a 9M317 single-stage, solid fueled missile was used, in semi-active homing mode. The 317 uses a radar proximity fuse and a direct hit can probably be ruled out. That is to say the warhead probably detonated away from the hull, perhaps as much as 50 feet away.

That is consistent with the eyewitness evidence, which is of the plane falling from the sky more or less intact, and breaking apart on impact, and the tight debris field. Although there was a post-crash fire most of the unfortunate victims seem to have died from negative G-forces whilst strapped into their seats.

The fact that most passengers were strapped in suggests that Captain Leong had time to warn his passengers of impending missile impact. There is some evidence that he took evasive maneuvers, correctly diving the aircraft to increase speed and mitigate damage due to explosive decompression.

MH17's assigned altitude, by Ukrainian air traffic control, was FL330, or 33,000 feet. I suspect that Captain Leong or his first officer saw the incoming and, as indicated, dived, so that interception was at a lower altitude.

There is no evidence that the target fireballed at altitude, which rules out a direct hit on the fuel tanks, although we may find some shrapnel damage.

The mainstream media, who are rushing to blame Russia, or pro-Russian separatists, are showing typical aviation illiteracy, of the sort on display after MH370 was shot down. On that occasion, as regular readers of this column will recall, they did not understand that aviation fuel is light and evaporates. That basic technical deficiency led them to confuse the diesel slick from the sunk Chinese SSK with fuel from the downed airliner.

On this occasion they are reporting at one and the same time, sometimes on the same page, that the airliner was 'blown out of the sky' yet fell to the ground intact and broke apart on landing. In the UK the Sun is leading the race to come up with the silliest reporting, with respect. Its front page today was asinine. Its journalistic standards are in freefall to New York Times levels.

If the stricken airliner did not fireball and had time to take evasive action, it also had time to broadcast a Mayday message. The fact that it did not suggests that its radios were being jammed. We will probably find that its ACARS reporting system failed as well, as with MH370. I find it highly significant that there is a media blackout on the status on the ACARS system.

If the ACARS was disabled, or the radios were jammed, then the pro-Russian separatists can safely be ruled out, although as I explain below they can be pretty much ruled out anyway, as they lack the capability.

____________________

The SA-17

The SA-17, which also has a naval variant, originally entered Soviet service in 1979, but it has been developed considerably since then, indeed the latest, SA-17, versions have a different Pentagon classification.

It is fired from either a Transporter-Erector Launcher (TEL), with four missiles, or a Transport-Erector Launcher And Radar (TELAR), which I think can carry up to six missiles, depending on version. It is a highly capable system, in service with both the Russian and Ukrainian armed forces.

Some of the technology may have been transferred from the US during the Soviet period by DVD assets in Washington. The SA-17 is similar to the excellent Standard missile, indeed it is sometimes jokingly referred to as the "Standardski".

The distinction between the TEL and the TELAR is important, because it is being said that Russian separatists captured a Buk launcher, although the evidence consists only of social media reports, a dubious source of information at best. The evidence, such as it is, is equally consistent with the Ukrainians setting the rebels up. The separatists themselves have strongly denied any high-altitude interception capability.

The Buk represented a significant improvement over the SA-6 Gainful which preceded it. There is no doubt that TELAR vehicles can both acquire and launch but significant doubt that a TEL on its own has any target acquisition capability.

So far as I can tell a TEL is basically a launch on visual confirmation of target system, i.e. pretty basic, rather like a shoulder-launched MANPAD. You see the target, point your missile in its rough direction and shoot, relying on the missile's onboard target acquisition system (typically infra-red with MANPADs and semi-active with the Buk) to achieve lock-on, hoping another target does not get in the way.

The SA-17 is designed to be fired from a command vehicle, that is to say it is not so very different from the SA-6, where you needed three vehicles (radar, command vehicle and launcher). There is not the slightest evidence that the separatists acquired a command vehicle, indeed there is no reliable evidence that they acquired a TELAR. The most they might have got – and I am not buying even that – was a TEL.

If the most they have is a TEL then we can rule them out completely for a beyond visual range engagement, as happened yesterday. Even if they had a TELAR there is no evidence that they have anyone trained on the Buk. I do not buy the argument that it can be used by your average separatist, many of them no brighter than the average journalist or MP (no offense intended), without specialist training. There are no reports at all of the separatists having fired any training rounds, i.e. if it was them they achieved a long-range kill first time they fired the weapon. Not buying.

Missile speed for the 317 version is around Mach 4, giving Captain Leong no chance at all, given that his radars were switched on and no one showed him my work on MH370. An SA-17 warhead is typically around 70 kilos, or 154 pounds (there are different versions of the missile), enough to down a 777. It's a big bird, around 18 feet long, weighing in at just over 1,500 pounds. It's large enough for one of the pilots to have spotted its approach in broad daylight, given the good visibility. The solid fuel rocket engine has a burn time of around 15 seconds and leaves a highly visible exhaust trail.

The 317 has a range of about 27-28 miles. That is significant because MH17 was shot down about 25 miles from the Russian frontier. That is getting close to the limit of system capabilities for a launch from Russian territory. US intelligence sources are being quoted today as saying that the missile was fired from within the Ukraine, which makes sense to me, and is one of the reasons why I conclude, provisionally, that the Ukrainians were responsible.

______________________

Kiev Must Have Known It Was MH17

The next thing to note about the SA-17 is that it has a sophisticated phased-array fire control radar, capable of target differentiation. Assuming, as I am prepared to assume, that it was the Ukrainian army, then they must have known that it was MH17. A freely available phone app was all they would have needed to tell them where the flight was.

The target was flying along a designated airway at a typical altitude for a civilian airliner, probably with an active transponder until it was taken down after entering Ukrainian airspace. It was not maneuvering, at least not until it saw the incoming, and could not conceivably have been confused for a military aircraft, not least as it had been directed to the kill zone by Ukrainian air traffic control.

____________________

Why MH17?

It seems that the motive was to discredit Russia, and that nice man President Putin in particular. The Ukrainian attack on MH17 was obviously planned well in advance.

The preparations may have included fake entries on social media websites to the effect that the rebels had acquired an SA-17 launcher. So far as is known there were no persons of interest on board the plane, unlike MH370, save for the poor AIDS researchers.

It is wildly improbable that it is a coincidence that both shot down aircraft were Malaysian. Someone is making a point. Malaysian Airlines are being taken down. If you have any frequent flyer miles on Malaysian use them up now, preferably on a partner airline.

The Administration has also rounded on the Russians and the rebels. Its claim that the rebels were to blame is obvious nonsense, which is unlikely to have been supported by professional intelligence officers, who would have had access to pretty much the same ELINT as the Russians.

I entirely support Moscow's claim to be in possession of ELINT data indicating that the target was painted by Ukrainian fire control radar, probably the organic fire control radar of a Ukrainian SA-17 battery.

The total inability of the Administration to give the co-ordinates of this alleged rebel-controlled SA-17 launcher is telling. All that President Obama could say today was that the missile was fired from within a rebel-held area.

That, with respect, is an obvious lie, since the NSA would have overheads, as well as the ELINT data. If the attack genuinely came from a rebel-held area then you can bet your bottom dollar the Administration would be handing out the evidence.

It is likely that the attack was cleared by Kiev in advance, high up the payroll, with both Berlin and the White House. The FAA, which is penetrated and was implicated in helping to set up the Turkish Airlines DC-10 Paris Air Disaster, seems to have helped in setting up the rebels as patsies. The presence of only one US citizen on board carried obvious political attractions for the White House.

One must recall that the covert German DVD intelligence organisation has thoroughly penetrated the Obama Administration, at a senior level, and is in effective control of the German federal government. It is the world's only intelligence agency which regularly attacks commercial airliners.

The Russians have never knowingly shot down a civilian airliner on a designated airway. I leave out of account KAL007 and the earlier KAL Boeing 707 incident, as those aircraft were well off course, were intercepted at night and had violated Soviet airspace without authorisation.

There is no reason at all to suppose that the Soviet fighter pilots thought they were attacking a Boeing 747, indeed there is no reliable evidence that KAL007 was even showing her navigation lights. As I point out in Spyhunter there are unanswered questions about that incident.

... ... ...

The Failure to Follow Up the MH370 Shoot Down

Those who suppressed my warnings from the aviation community now have blood on their hands. Had poor Captain Leong known that the Bad Guys were deliberately firing long range missiles at airliners using semi-active homing he would have known better than to cruise over contested airspace with his radars turned on.

Had my advice, as given in Spyhunter and in this column after MH370 was shot down, been followed, then this tragedy would not have happened. It is upsetting to see lives thrown away in this casual manner.

At least my argument that airliners face high altitude missile threats, obvious from the time we realised that the Iranians had shot down TWA800 with a Phoenix, may now be given greater weight. Aviation security consultants have obsessed, dangerously, with MANPADS, which have a typical ceiling of only 12-15,000 feet.

It is a pity that Malaysian Airlines did not consult me after 370. Almost alone amongst aviation security experts I was alive to the high-altitude threat, indeed I am the only aviation intelligence specialist in the world to have gone public on the high altitude missile threat to airliners.

I would have advised strongly against flying through contested Ukrainian airspace. The FAA warnings and claims that the rebels had acquired a Buk would have been further red flags for me.

There it is, sadly. The airline rejected my claim that MH370 was shot down, or accepted it and participated in the cover-up, took no steps whatsoever to guard against the high altitude missile threat and have now lost another 777, 295 people and probably the airline itself into the bargain.

[Jul 20, 2014] Audio "Proof" of Ukrainian Rebel Responsibility for Malaysian Flight Downing is Fake

Antiwar.com Blog

Questions over why Malaysian plane flew over Ukrainian warzone: http://rt.com/news/173792-malaysian-plane-diverte...

Ukrainian Buk battery radar was operational when Malaysian plane downed - Moscow: http://rt.com/news/173784-ukraine-plane-malaysian...

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To get to levels of zerohedge paranoia ... wasn't there NATO exercises in the Black Sea that have "successfully concluded" just um... yesterday? More shades of TWA 800. History is weird.

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El Tonno · 2 days ago

Madame Clinton already knows what a little bird told her:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/mh17...

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Against Empire · 2 days ago

Malaysia's Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal (KLWCT) found former Israeli army general Amos Yaron and the state of Israel guilty of crimes against humanity and genocide stemming from the massacre of Palestinians in Beirut's Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in 1982.

For the past two weeks, Malaysia has been strongly condemning Israel's aggression on Gaza.

...and, possibly, for the past two weeks, Israel's been thinking about how to punish Malaysia.

===

El Tonno · 1 day ago

MUHSA today:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/...

WASHINGTON -- President Obama said the United States has "increasing confidence" that the missile that shot down a Malaysian jetliner came from Russian separatists in Ukraine -- and that Russia bears some responsibility for the crisis.

"Evidence indicates that the plane was shot down by a surface-to-air missile from an area that is controlled by Russian backed separatists inside Ukraine," Obama said in his first extensive remarks on the passenger jet crash. "A group of separatists can't shoot down military transport planes or, they claim, fighter jets, without sophisticated military equipment, and that comes from Russia."

Yes. We are also not winning in Iraq, and that comes from Iran.

Obama noted that about a hundred AIDS researchers and activists were reportedly on the flight, headed to a conference in Australia.

"These were men and women who dedicated their own lives to saving the lives of others, and they were taken from us in a senseless act of violence," he said. "It's important for us to lift them up and affirm their lives."

Do speechwriters just string together random crap to generate maximum pathos?

John Dowser 72p · 1 day ago

Not sure about the creation date in the mp4 meta data being such a great evidence. It's known to be iffy at times and different from the actual file creation. But on the original research page at zerohedge.com it becomes clear the video was partly preexisting since June 5 in terms of format, production and some imagery used. Very sloppy all in all, even if the creation date would be a red herring, the odd production and timing is certainly not!

· 1 day ago

And the shoot-down coming on the day the Israeli ground invasion of Gaza began is a curious coincidence- something spectacular to divert the low-information public's attention? I have to wonder just how much you'd have to pay someone- say, in the Ukraine military- to target and launch on a civilian airliner as part of a false-flag op?

In other important, world-shaking news, Kim Kardashian was seen today showing off her bottom. How easily we're distracted from real issues these days.

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outsider · 1 day ago

How does Russia possibly benefit from this shoot down (cui bono?). This question was not asked by Washington when they claimed that Assad used sarin gas on his own people, even though he had nothing to gain and everything to lose. And, naturally, they are not asking it now. Washington does not want its sheeple to think now, does it?

[Jul 20, 2014] New information about who hit the airliner

vzglyad.ru

Pictures that got to the Internet today from the crash site suggest that the airliner was shot not "BUK" surface to air missile but by air to air mille from those "unknown" two fighters, which were mentioned in his blog "the Spanish air traffic controller" who work at Borispol airport in Kiev.

"In anti-aircraft missiles have different type of warheads depending to the type of the rocket, " explained to the newspaper one of the creators of the complex "Buk". - So from the wreckage it is easy to determine what type of rocket surface to air or air to air was used".

For example, in the complex "Buk" use anti-aircraft missiles MM. Their speed - 850 meters per second, a warhead weight of 70 kg. Warhead payload consists of are metal balls which when the warhead is blow near the target create a dense cloud of balls rushing to target of high speed.

"When such balls hit the aircraft it inflicts a mass of different holes, " says the designer. - In the fuselage they can be small, in the fuel tanks much bigger and it they get into the engine that they "knock out" all the turbine blades".

Judging by photos of the remains of a Boeing 777, the expert concludes that the plane was shot by aircraft air to air missile. In their military units not the balls but a beam of sharp metal rods, sometimes welded together, sometimes not. For the set bundle of rods installed release charge which is called the "fragmentation rod combat unit". When the warhead approaches the target at predetermined distance the charge is explodes in the warhead and a bundle of rods on supersonic speeds rush to the target.

After contact with the aircraft a rod just due to its huge kinetics energy is to pierce the plane through thus destroying the internal structure of the aircraft, including electrical circuits and vital avionics equipment. The speed of the rod is such that he can break apart even titanium spars of the aircraft. If the target gets more then 2-3% of these arrows, the plane is completely doomed: at speeds of 900 km per hours even small hole fuselage or a wing is fatal as air flow will destroy the damaged part in less than a minute.

Such warheads are installed on two types of missiles R-73 and R-27. At first its mass is 7.4 kg, second - 40 kg. Fighters MiG-29 and su-27 are equipped with those missiles. Both machines take an active part in the Ukrainian troops "anti-terrorist operation" in the South-East of the country.

As noted the designer of Buk:

" I am confident that from the photos that appeared in the Internet visible damage to the skin of the airliner has characteristic of fragmentation rods, not a high-explosive ball-based warhead, such as Buk".

Those pictures make the mysterious message "Spanish" Manager that Boeing 777 was accompanied by two Ukrainian fighter (the militia there is no technique), and his assumption that after the "visit" of these cars passenger liner disappeared from radar screens, less implausible. In this situation the version of of the Federal air transport Agency saying that the attack on the Malaysian Boeing could be an attempt to shoot down the plane of the President of Russia Vladimir Putin, who was returning from Latin America, as their routes overlap, and the colors of the fuselage two aircraft very similar.

In favor of this version speaks that fact, that in the place of supposed route of two aircraft of the Ukrainian military in advance deployed a battery of anti-aircraft missile systems Buk and put them on high alert, as evidenced by the data of the radio interceptions of the Russian military. They also raised into the air two fighters. And the fact that militia has no aviation means tha attack was performed by the Ukrainian side. Looks like the pilots of the Ukrainian air force were unable to distinguish Malaysian Boeing 777 from Russian Il-96.

And it is easy to make such a mistake due to similarity of sizes and colors of the plane. Moreover in 2001 the calculation of the Ukrainian anti-aircraft missile system S-200V easily identified a Russian passenger Tu-154 as a missile target and hit it destroying the airliner with all people aboard. Although on the radar screen targets are drastically distinct with different size of the label, and on speed of flight.

And it is difficult to say something positive about the training of Ukrainian air force pilots. The bombing of cities and towns of the South-East of Ukraine shows a very low level of training of flying personnel of the air force. This is confirmed by the number of lost in battle helicopters and planes.

[Jul 19, 2014] The Department of Making Shit Up Welcomes New Rising Star Daniel Bilak

Jul 19, 2014 | marknesop.wordpress.com

Let me refresh your memory, Dan.

It was the west, with its media road show and fog machine, that hyped the Maidan as a huge groundswell of popular opinion, a "people's uprising", even though it attracted far smaller crowds than the Orange Revolution. It was the west who whipped the protests into violence, shouting loudly that Yanukovych must get his police off the streets and let the peaceful protesters have their way even as they were heaving bricks and gasoline bombs and seizing control of public buildings. Here's what EU Foreign Policy Chief Ashton had to say about the heroic crowd on the Maidan: "I was among you on Maidan in the evening and was impressed by the determination of Ukrainians demonstrating for the European perspective of their country". Here's what she said about Yanukovych's brutality toward protesters: "Dialogue with political forces and society and the use of arguments is always better than the argument of force." Things changed a little bit once the EU and USA maneuvered Poroshenko into the driver's seat, and those in the east who did not want to recognize his dominion over them were not protesters; no, Lady Ashton and her doppelgänger in physical ugliness, U.S, Secretary of State John Kerry agreed that they were "pro-Russian separatists", while Ukraine – which had already moved against them in full military strength in direct contravention of the Ukrainian constitution and international law – had "shown remarkable restraint". Fuck dialogue and the use of arguments: force rocks!! Around the same time, the Estonian Foreign Minister confided to Ashton suspicions that the snipers who had indiscriminately shot both protesters and police from rooftops around Maidan had acted on the behest of the Ukrainian opposition, to sort of spur things along to mindless rioting. Ashton's response will go down in history: "I think we do want to investigate. I mean, I didn't pick that up, that's interesting. Gosh." Investigation of the matter since? Zip. Zero. Nothing. Dropped like a hot stone. Apparently upon further examination, it was all the way across town from "interesting".

Mr. Bilak apparently agrees with the might-makes-right approach; he reserved especial disappointment for Germany's Angela Merkel, for her statement that "Ukraine should start immediate bilateral negotiations with the terrorists rampaging through the Donbas."

Said terrorist body consisting, according to Mr. Bilak, of "marauding, fragmented bands of 10,000 Chechen fighters and Russian mercenaries, Donbas criminals, drug addicts, and other marginals". What a long, rough way we have come from the nobility of "Ukrainians demonstrating for the European perspective of their country". It must be disappointing for a professional military force made up of genetically-acceptable Ukrainians to get its ass kicked by drug addicts, criminals and marginals. Although perhaps he is not exactly sure of the composition of the opposing force, since he offers no evidence whatsoever to support his allegations, and all evidence offered thus far of state-sponsored Russian participation has been discredited. No use holding talks, anyway, says Bilak, with terrorists who are too busy shooting up the towns they hold to negotiate. The deliberate obfuscation and ignorance of this statement is breathtaking; there is no evidence that any property damage at all accrues to the federalists, while it is the indiscriminate shelling by the Ukrainian army which has reduced towns like Slaviyansk to rubble.

But beneath the all-seeing Eye Of Bilak, the situation for the bloodthirsty saboteurs of Ukraine's destiny is simple; when the glorious forces of the Unified Ukraine prevail, the Ukrainians among the defenders will be tried as terrorists, while the Russians fleeing for the safety of their evil empire will be shot by Russian border guards.

But it didn't have to be this way. Putin could stop the entire conflict in its tracks, just by waving his evil talon. This would "cut off the flow of funds, tanks, weapons and mercenaries from Russia and to secure his side of the Ukrainian-Russian border."

But he won't do that unless the EU stops dicking around and applies some serious sanctions.

As if that were not enough rubbish, the garbage truck and the road completely part company at this point. According to Mr. Bilak, "On Monday, Ukraine claimed a Russian fighter jet or one of Russia's new rockets shot down a Ukrainian air force plane from inside Russian territory (based on the fact that no side on Ukraine's territory has weaponry that could reach that height)."

Sure you want to stick with that story, Daniel? Because the downing yesterday of MH-17 was responded to by Samantha Power at the UN with a storm of frothy and rabid invective which included the contention that according to the official United States position, the Ukrainian "pro-Russian separatists" have vehicle-mounted air defence missile systems practically falling out their ass – among them the SA-11 Buk. The aircraft shot down on Monday was an AN-26, at an altitude of 21,000 ft. MH-17 was following an airlane at 33,000 ft; 12,000 ft higher than the AN-26, although the international community is sure it was shot down by the "pro-Russia separatists" using Russian-supplied weaponry. Ukraine has the Buk as well, of course, but Ukraine also said at one time that the rebels did not have any. The plane crashed far enough from the Russian border that it would have been out of range of a Buk fired from Russia at the moment it was hit. So…what happened? There is absolutely no doubt that Ukraine has a weapon which could reach that altitude, the aircraft would have been out of range from Russia, and you just got done saying the "pro-Russia separatists" didn't have a weapon which could reach that high. That only leaves one contender.

We'll let you off that one, Daniel, because you plainly know as much about gaseous compounds on Venus as you do about air defense systems. And that ignorance is just as plainly not confined simply to air defense systems, as he goes on in the next paragraph to blabber that Russian tanks and artillery poured over the border this past weekend vand advanced three kilometers into Ukraine. That sounds like an invasion to me. Got any pictures? Nope. Any evidence at all? Nope. Just alarmist twaddle to stir up the red-meat crowd.

Who the hell is Daniel Bilak, you may be wondering. As was I. According to the one-line bio at the bottom of this tapestry of mendacious blather, he is "an advisor to the Governor of Donetsk Oblast". The absentee governor, that'd be, who was appointed by Kiev to run the restive region and has since fled after being driven out. But that's not the end of the Daniel Bilak story; no, indeed. He's also the managing partner at CMS Cameron McKenna LLC in Kiev, and has extensive experience advising clients on legal risk in international oil and gas development, among other things. Between 1995 and 2006 he was a senior United Nations Development Program governance expert, and has also been General Counsel for Emtec, a Canadian high-tech. Except for his rudimentary schooling, he was educated in Canada at McGill University, Montreal. He is an internationalist who is about as Ukrainian as a hockey stick. I don't know where he learned to make up shit like that, but I devoutly hope it was not Montreal.

Here's a tip, Dan, for free. Stick to lying about how many women you've slept with and how big the fish you catch are. Men at least will be willing to let those pass without comment, because everybody lies about those.

Airline Horror Spurs New Rush to Judgment By Robert Parry

"We saw this phenomenon in 2002-03 as nearly the entire Washington press corps clambered onboard President George W. Bush's propaganda bandwagon into an aggressive war against Iraq. That pattern almost repeated itself last summer when a similar rush to judgment occurred around a sarin gas attack outside Damascus, Syria, on Aug. 21. Though the evidence was murky, there was a stampede to assume that the Assad government was behind the attack. While blaming the Syrian army, the U.S. press ignored the possibility that the attack was a provocation committed by radical jihadist rebels who were hoping that U.S. air power could turn the tide of the war in their favor." Rather than carefully weigh the complex evidence, the State Department and Secretary of State John Kerry tried to spur President Obama into a quick decision to bomb Syrian government targets. Kerry delivered a belligerent speech on Aug. 30 and the administration released what it called a "Government Assessment" supposedly proving the case. But this four-page white paper contained no verifiable evidence supporting its accusations and it soon became clear that the report had excluded dissents that some U.S. intelligence analysts would have attached to a more formal paper prepared by the intelligence community.
July 19, 2014 | Consortiumnews
Exclusive: President Obama and the State Department's "anti-diplomats" are fanning flames of anger against Russia after the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over Ukraine. But some U.S. intelligence analysts doubt the popular "blame-the-Russians" scenario, reports Robert Parry.

Despite doubts within the U.S. intelligence community, the Obama administration and the mainstream U.S. news media are charging off toward another rush to judgment blaming Ukrainian rebels and the Russian government for the shoot-down of a Malaysia Airlines plane, much as occurred last summer regarding a still-mysterious sarin gas attack in Syria.

In both cases, rather than let independent investigators sort out the facts, President Barack Obama's ever-aggressive State Department and the major U.S. media simply accepted that the designated villains of those two crises – Bashar al-Assad in Syria and Russian President Vladimir Putin on Ukraine – were the guilty parties. Yet, some U.S. intelligence analysts dissented from both snap conventional wisdoms.

Regarding the shoot-down of the Malaysian jetliner on Thursday, I'm told that some CIA analysts cite U.S. satellite reconnaissance photos suggesting that the anti-aircraft missile that brought down Flight 17 was fired by Ukrainian troops from a government battery, not by ethnic Russian rebels who have been resisting the regime in Kiev since elected President Viktor Yanukovych was overthrown on Feb. 22.

According to a source briefed on the tentative findings, the soldiers manning the battery appeared to be wearing Ukrainian uniforms and may have been drinking, since what looked like beer bottles were scattered around the site. But the source added that the information was still incomplete and the analysts did not rule out the possibility of rebel responsibility.

A contrary emphasis has been given to the Washington Post and other mainstream U.S. outlets. On Saturday, the Post reported that "on Friday, U.S. officials said a preliminary intelligence assessment indicated the airliner was blown up by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile fired by the separatists." But the objectivity of the Obama administration, which has staunchly supported the coup regime, is in question as are the precise reasons for its judgments.

Even before the Feb. 22 coup, senior administration officials, including Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt, were openly encouraging protesters seeking the overthrow of Yanukovych. Nuland went so far as to pass out cookies to the demonstrators and discuss with Pyatt who should be appointed once Yanukovych was removed.

After Yanukovych and his officials were forced to flee in the face of mass protests and violent attacks by neo-Nazi militias, the State Department was quick to declare the new government "legitimate" and welcomed Nuland's favorite, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, as the new prime minister.

As events have unfolded since then, including Crimea's secession to join Russia and bloody attacks directed at ethnic Russians in Odessa and elsewhere, the Obama administration has consistently taken the side of the Kiev regime and bashed Moscow.

And, since Thursday, when the Malaysian plane was shot down killing 298 people, the Ukrainian government and the Obama administration have pointed the finger of blame at the rebels and the Russian government, albeit without the benefit of a serious investigation that is only now beginning.

One of the administration's points has been that the Buk anti-aircraft missile system, which was apparently used to shoot down the plane, was "Russian made." But the point is rather silly since nearly all Ukrainian military weaponry is "Russian made." Ukraine, after all, was part of the Soviet Union until 1991 and has continued to use mostly Russian military equipment.

It's also not clear how the U.S. government ascertained that the missile was an SA-11 as opposed to other versions of the Buk missile system.

Slanting the Case

Virtually everything that U.S. officials have said appears designed to tilt suspicions toward the Russians and the rebels – and away from government forces. Referring ominously to the sophistication of the SA-11, U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Samantha Power declared, "We cannot rule out Russian technical assistance." But that phrasing supposedly means that the administration can't rule it in either.

Still, in reading between the lines of the mainstream U.S. press accounts, it's possible to see where some of the gaps are regarding the supposed Russian hand in Thursday's tragedy. For instance, the Post's Craig Whitlock reported that Air Force Gen. Philip M. Breedlove, U.S. commander of NATO forces in Europe, said last month that "We have not seen any of the [Russian] air-defense vehicles across the border yet."

Since these Buk missile systems are large and must be transported on trucks, it would be difficult to conceal their presence from U.S. aerial surveillance which has been concentrating intensely on the Ukraine-Russia border in recent months.

The Post also reported that "Rear Adm. John Kirby, the Pentagon press secretary, said defense officials could not point to specific evidence that an SA-11 surface-to-air missile system had been transported from Russia into eastern Ukraine."

In other words, the mystery is still not solved. It may be that the rebels – facing heavy bombardment from the Ukrainian air force – convinced the Russians to provide more advanced anti-aircraft weapons than the shoulder-fired missiles that the rebels have used to bring down some Ukrainian military planes.

It's possible, too, that a rebel detachment mistook the civilian airliner for a military plane or even that someone in the Russian military launched the fateful rocket at the plane heading toward Russian airspace.

But both the Russian government and the rebels dispute those scenarios. The rebels say they don't have missiles that can reach the 33,000-foot altitude of the Malaysian airliner. Besides denying a hand in the tragedy, the Russians claim that the Ukrainian military did have Buk anti-aircraft systems in eastern Ukraine and that the radar of one battery was active on the day of the crash.

The Russian Defense Ministry stated that "The Russian equipment detected throughout July 17 the activity of a Kupol radar, deployed as part of a Buk-M1 battery near Styla [a village some 30 kilometers south of Donetsk]," according to an RT report.

So, the other alternative remains in play, that a Ukrainian military unit – possibly a poorly supervised bunch – fired the missile intentionally or by accident. Why the Ukrainian military would intentionally have aimed at a plane flying eastward toward Russia is hard to comprehend, however.

A Propaganda Replay?

But perhaps the larger point is that both the Obama administration and the U.S. press corps should stop this pattern of rushing to judgments. It's as if they're obsessed with waging "information warfare" – i.e., justifying hostilities toward some adversarial nation – rather than responsibly informing the American people.

We saw this phenomenon in 2002-03 as nearly the entire Washington press corps clambered onboard President George W. Bush's propaganda bandwagon into an aggressive war against Iraq. That pattern almost repeated itself last summer when a similar rush to judgment occurred around a sarin gas attack outside Damascus, Syria, on Aug. 21.

Though the evidence was murky, there was a stampede to assume that the Assad government was behind the attack. While blaming the Syrian army, the U.S. press ignored the possibility that the attack was a provocation committed by radical jihadist rebels who were hoping that U.S. air power could turn the tide of the war in their favor.

Rather than carefully weigh the complex evidence, the State Department and Secretary of State John Kerry tried to spur President Obama into a quick decision to bomb Syrian government targets. Kerry delivered a belligerent speech on Aug. 30 and the administration released what it called a "Government Assessment" supposedly proving the case.

But this four-page white paper contained no verifiable evidence supporting its accusations and it soon became clear that the report had excluded dissents that some U.S. intelligence analysts would have attached to a more formal paper prepared by the intelligence community.

Despite the war hysteria then gripping Official Washington, President Obama rejected war at the last moment and – with the help of Russian President Putin – was able to negotiate a resolution of the crisis in which Assad surrendered Syria's chemical weapons while still denying a hand in the sarin gas attack.

The mainstream U.S. press, especially the New York Times, and some non-governmental organizations, such as Human Rights Watch, continued pushing the theme of the Syrian government's guilt. HRW and the Times teamed up for a major story that purported to show the flight paths of two sarin-laden missiles vectoring back to a Syrian military base 9.5 kilometers away.

For a time, this report was treated as the slam-dunk evidence proving the case against Assad, until it turned out that only one of the rockets carried sarin and the maximum range of the one that did have sarin was only about two kilometers.

Despite knowing these weaknesses in the case, President Obama stood by his State Department hawks by reading a speech to the UN General Assembly on Sept. 24 in which he declared: "It's an insult to human reason and to the legitimacy of this institution to suggest that anyone other than the regime carried out this attack."

In watching Obama's address, I was struck by how casually he lied. He knew better than almost anyone that some of his senior intelligence analysts were among those doubting the Syrian government's guilt. Yet, he suggested that anyone who wasn't onboard the propaganda train was crazy.

Since then, investigative journalist Seymour Hersh has revealed other evidence indicating that the sarin attack may indeed have been a rebel provocation meant to push Obama over the "red line" that he had drawn about not tolerating chemical weapons use.

Now, we are seeing a repeat performance in which Obama understands the doubts about the identity of who fired the missile that brought down the Malaysian airliner but is pushing the suspicions in a way designed to whip up animosity toward Russia and President Putin.

Obama may think this is a smart play because he can posture as tough when many of his political enemies portray him as weak. He also buys himself some P.R. protection in case it turns out that the ethnic Russian rebels and/or the Russian military do share the blame for the tragedy. He can claim to have been out front in making the accusations.

But there is a dangerous downside to creating a public hysteria about nuclear-armed Russia. As we have seen already in Ukraine, events can spiral out of control in unpredictable ways.

Assistant Secretary Nuland and other State Department hawks probably thought they were building their careers when they encouraged the Feb. 22 coup – and they may well be right about advancing their status in Official Washington at least. But they also thawed out long-frozen animosities between the "ethnically pure" Ukrainians in the west and the ethnic Russians in the east.

Those tensions – many dating back to World War II and before – have now become searing hatreds with hundreds of dead on both sides. The nasty, little Ukrainian civil war also made Thursday's horror possible.

But even greater calamities could lie ahead if the State Department's "anti-diplomats" succeed in reigniting the Cold War. The crash of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 should be a warning about the dangers of international brinkmanship.

Investigative reporter Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories for The Associated Press and Newsweek in the 1980s. You can buy his new book, America's Stolen Narrative, either in print here or as an e-book (from Amazon and barnesandnoble.com). For a limited time, you also can order Robert Parry's trilogy on the Bush Family and its connections to various right-wing operatives for only $34. The trilogy includes America's Stolen Narrative. For details on this offer, click here.

Vladimir Putin is given 'one last chance' as world fury mounts over flight MH17 by Shaun Walker

Compare this with Ukraine's Security Service Has Confiscated Air Traffic Control Recordings With Malaysian Jet Zero Hedge

Global leaders rounded on Vladimir Putin on Saturday night as armed separatists continued to block international inspectors attempting to identify and repatriate bodies at the Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash site in eastern Ukraine.

Amid reports that pro-Russia rebels accused of shooting down the plane had removed corpses themselves and were looting credit cards and other possessions belonging to some of the 298 victims, Mark Rutte, the Dutch prime minister, said that Putin had "one last chance to show he means to help [rescuers recover the bodies]".

Rutte vented his anger following what he called a "very intense" conversation with the Russian president. Referring to allegations that bodies of the passengers, including 193 Dutch nationals, were being treated with contempt and allowed to rot at the scene, he said: "I was shocked at the pictures of utterly disrespectful behaviour at this tragic spot. It's revolting."

[Jul 19, 2014] Online It was Putin's missile! by Pepe Escobar

Jul 18, 2014 | Asia Times

And here's the spin war verdict: the current Malaysia Airlines tragedy - the second in four months - is "terrorism" perpetrated by "pro-Russian separatists", armed by Russia, and Vladimir Putin is the main culprit. End of story. Anyone who believes otherwise, shut up.

Why? Because the CIA said so. Because Hillary "We came, we saw, he died" Clinton said so. Because batshit crazy Samantha "R2P" Power said so - thundering at the UN, everything duly printed by the neo-con infested Washington Post. [1]

Because Anglo-American corporate media - from CNN to Fox (who tried to buy Time Warner, which owns CNN) - said so. Because the President of the United States (POTUS) said so. And mostly because Kiev had vociferously said so in the first place.

Right off the bat they were all lined up - the invariably hysterical reams of "experts" of the "US intelligence community" literally foaming at their palatial mouths at "evil" Russia and "evil" Putin; intel "experts" who could not identify a convoy of gleaming white Toyotas crossing the Iraqi desert to take Mosul. And yet they have already sentenced they don't need to look any further, instantly solving the MH17 riddle.

It doesn't matter that President Putin has stressed the MH17 tragedy must be investigated objectively. And "objectively" certainly does not mean that fictional "international community" notion construed by Washington - the usual congregation of pliable vassals/patsies.

And what about Carlos?

A simple search at reveals that MH17 was in fact diverted 200 kilometers north from the usual flight path taken by Malaysia Airlines in the previous days - and plunged right in the middle of a war zone. Why? What sort of communication MH17 received from Kiev air control tower?

Kiev has been mute about it. Yet the answer would be simple, had Kiev released the Air Traffic Control recording of the tower talking to flight MH17; Malaysia did it after flight MH370 disappeared forever.

It won't happen; SBU security confiscated it. So much for getting an undoctored explanation on why MH17 was off its path, and what the pilots saw and said before the explosion.

The Russian Defense Ministry, for its part, has confirmed that a Kiev-controlled Buk anti-aircraft missile battery was operational near the MH17's crash. Kiev has deployed several batteries of Buk surface-to-air missile systems with at least 27 launchers; these are all perfectly capable of bringing down jets flying at 33,000 ft.

Radiation from a battery's Kupol radar, deployed as part of a Buk-M1 battery near Styla (a village some 30km south of Donetsk) was detected by the Russian military. According to the ministry, the radar could be providing tracking information to another battery which was at a firing distance from MH17's flight path. The tracking radar range on the Buk system is a maximum of 50 miles. MH17 was flying at 500 mph. So assuming the "rebels" had an operational Buk and did it, they would have had not more than five minutes to scan all the skies above, all possible altitudes, and then lock on. By then they would have known that a cargo plane could not possibly be flying that high. For evidence supporting the possibility of a false flag, check here.

And then there's the curiouser and curiouser story of Carlos, the Spanish air traffic controller working at Kiev's tower, who was following MH17 in real time. For some Carlos is legit - not a cipher; for others, he's never even worked in Ukraine. Anyway he tweeted like mad. His account - not accidentally - has been shut down, and he has disappeared; his friends are now desperately looking for him. I managed to read all his tweets in Spanish when the account was still online - and now copies and an English translation are available.

These are some of his crucial tweets:

  • "The B777 was escorted by 2 Ukrainian fighter jets minutes before disappearing from radar (5.48 pm)"

    Carlos's assessment (a partial compilation of his tweets is collected here http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/ ): the missile was fired by the Ukraine military under orders of the Ministry of Interior - NOT the Ministry of Defense. Security matters at the Ministry of the Interior happen to be under Andriy Parubiy, who was closely working alongside US neo-cons and Banderastan neo-nazis on Maidan.

    Assuming Carlos is legit, the assessment makes sense. The Ukrainian military are divided between Chocolate king President Petro Poroshenko - who would like a détente with Russia essentially to advance his shady business interests - and Saint Yulia Timoshenko, who's on the record advocating genocide of ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine. US neo-cons and US "military advisers" on the ground are proverbially hedging their bets, supporting both the Poroshenko and Timoshenko factions.

    So who profits?
    The key question remains, of course, cui bono? Only the terminally brain dead believe shooting a passenger jet benefits the federalists in Eastern Ukraine, not to mention the Kremlin.

    As for Kiev, they'd have the means, the motive and the window of opportunity to pull it off - especially after Kiev's militias have been effectively routed, and were in retreat, in the Donbass; and this after Kiev remained dead set on attacking and bombing the population of Eastern Ukraine even from above. No wonder the federalists had to defend themselves.

    And then there's the suspicious timing. The MH17 tragedy happened two days after the BRICS announced an antidote to the IMF and the World Bank, bypassing the US dollar. And just as Israel "cautiously" advances its new invasion/slow motion ethnic cleansing of Gaza. Malaysia, by the way, is the seat of the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission, which has found Israel guilty of crimes against humanity.

    Washington, of course, does profit. What the Empire of Chaos gets in this case is a ceasefire (so the disorganized, battered Kiev militias may be resupplied); the branding of Eastern Ukrainians as de facto "terrorists" (as Kiev, Dick Cheney-style, always wanted); and unlimited mud thrown over Russia and Putin in particular until Kingdom Come. Not bad for a few minutes' work. As for NATO, that's Christmas in July.

    From now on, it all depends on Russian intelligence. They have been surveying/tracking everything that happens in Ukraine 24/7. In the next 72 hours, after poring over a lot of tracking data, using telemetry, radar and satellite tracking, they will know which type of missile was launched, where from, and even produce communications from the battery that launched it. And they will have access to forensic evidence.

    Unlike Washington - who already knows everything, with no evidence whatsoever (remember 9/11?) - Moscow will take its time to know the basic journalistic facts of what, where, and who, and engage on proving the truth and/or disproving Washington's spin.

    The historical record shows Washington simply won't release data if it points to a missile coming from its Kiev vassals. The data may even point to a bomb planted on MH17, or mechanical failure - although that's unlikely. If this was a terrible mistake by the Novorossiya rebels, Moscow will have to reluctantly admit it. If Kiev did it, the revelation will be instantaneous. Anyway we already know the hysterical Western response, no matter what; Russia is to blame.

    Putin is more than correct when he stressed this tragedy would not have happened if Poroshenko had agreed to extend a cease-fire, as Merkel, Hollande and Putin tried to convince him in late June. At a minimum, Kiev is already guilty because they are responsible for safe passage of flights in the airspace they - theoretically - control.

    But all that is already forgotten in the fog of war, tragedy and hype. As for Washington's hysterical claims of credibility, I leave you with just one number: Iran Air 655.

    Notes:
    1. Missile Downs Malaysia Airlines Plane Over Ukraine Killing 298, Kiew Blames Rebels, Washington Post, July 18, 2014.

    Pepe Escobar is the author of Globalistan: How the Globalized World is Dissolving into Liquid War (Nimble Books, 2007), Red Zone Blues: a snapshot of Baghdad during the surge (Nimble Books, 2007), and Obama does Globalistan (Nimble Books, 2009).

    He may be reached at pepeasia@yahoo.com.

    (Copyright 2014 Asia Times Online (Holdings) Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.)

  • [Jul 19, 2014] Rescuers Recover Second Black Box From Malaysia Airlines Crash in East Ukraine World

    July 18, 2014 | RIA Novosti

    Rescue workers have recovered the second black box from the Malaysian Airlines passenger airplane that crashed in eastern Ukraine, Reuters reported citing an eyewitness Friday.

    Earlier a spokesman from the Vostok Battalion said that they had found several objects that could be black boxes near the town of Torez where the aircraft crashed.

    A Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777 flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur crashed near the town of Torez in the Donetsk Region on Thursday. There were 283 passengers and 15 crew members on board, none of them survived.

    Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said earlier on Friday one flight recorder from the plane had allegedly been found by local militia who might take it to Russia in an attempt to "hide all traces."

    Kiev blamed independence supporters in the turbulent Donetsk region for downing the passenger plane with a surface-to-air missile. Militia forces said they had no missile systems that could hit a target flying at an altitude of 10,000 meters.

    Ukraine has repeatedly accused Russia of supplying arms to resistance forces in the east of Ukraine, although there has been no evidence to this effect.

    Ukrainian authorities and Malaysia Airlines are investigating the incident.

    [Jul 19, 2014] List of questions MSM try hard not to answer

    MSM crooks should tremble reading those question from a regular blogger ;-)
    valery-pavlov.livejournal.com
    1. Course Boeing over Ukraine has changed. Who ordered this? Who in General has launched a war zone? Have you heard anything from Ukraine as an explanation for this? No, of course. But these explanations should be required.
    2. As the wreckage of the plane were together in one heap? If the plane was shot at a height of 10 kilometers, the debris would fly for miles. And they fell in a heap.
    3. How is it that many personal belongings of passengers was untouched? What new passports were demonstrated by "militias" (or whatever it was?) on camera in a few hours after the disaster?
    4. Why shell hit the same spot twice? (the same airline within a few months of becoming a victim of a mysterious catastrophe).
    5. Why there were no US (or one) American citizen on board ? This is among other things gives Americans reason to investigate the disaster. And this is when the investigation "softens" the guilt of the performers of the American side (if we are talking about the bombing of the CIA) - "its something we didn't blow up".
    6. Is it possible for a layman to operate "Buk" air defense system? Because generally the aircraft should be clearly identified on the radar screen of such system. Well, for example, display units on old defense systems monitor the movement of all purposes, and it is clear that any target, flying from Europe, is 100% civilian aircraft.
    7. If we assume that it was "militias" who launch the rocket, then to what group those men belong? Is there a chance that hit militias "mole", i.e. there was a planned sabotage? It is obvious that the attack is extremely disadvantageous for Russia, militias and extremely advantageous to the United States and the puppet Ukrainian government.
    8. Was there in fact this "Spanish air controller"? Or this is dezo. Who is he, what is his name? Why Spanish? In Kiev, a lot of Spanish managers and difficult to identify?
    9. Where are black boxes? What is their fate?
    10. Did the militia has operational middle range air defense systems? Buk was captures in mid June. why it was not used before if it was operational? Why it was not use for defense of Donetsk from air bombardment?
    11. What about professionals who can manage them? How militia can find them ? Did Russians send their staff to operate BUK. If so they are professionals and can't hit passenger airliners. They are not Americans or Ukrainians who have such a history.
    12. How lame was the American satellite evidence that supposedly can read car registration plates? Why they do not provide us with the conclusive evidence? Where is this video of the system that launched the rocket? How can you determine from which zone Ukrainian or militia has deployed rocket complexes? Are distance between Ukrainian Missile systems and militia missile systems is measured kilometers or tens of kilometers?
    13. Why is there no data from the Russian radars? Russian military were on high alert at this period and monitor the entire territory of the military conflict. Was monitoring suspended ? Hardly. Then where is it? Where the data is, for example, about the exact altitude of the liner at the moment of missile strike?
    14. Militiamen who arrived at the scene previously said that putrid smell of some of the victims of the disaster was "stale". Was it really so?
    15. Were Ukraine fighters in the air in the vicinity of the aircraft? That is, Ukranian standard raction "TSE ne mi" (it's not me) does not surprise anybody but those planes can't be hidden. Is there any evidence of present of Ukrainian fighter in the vicinity?
    16. Why did Putin called Obama? What did they say? What the phone call pre-scheduled and on different topic ?
    17. What happened with the discussion of the situation in the UN? Why they did not force Kiev to give all the evidence immediately.

    Perhaps most questions have simple answers. But I would like to get answers to them.

    [Jul 19, 2014] ITAR-TASS Russia - Moscow notes large number of questions to Kiev about Buk systems in Boeing accident

    July 19, 2014 | en.itar-tass.com

    Moscow notes large number of questions to Kiev about Buk systems in Boeing accident

    "The Ukrainian authorities are busy concocting all kinds of nonsense and insinuations", the source in Kremlin said

    MOSCOW, July 19, 17:34 /ITAR-TASS/. There are too many questions to the Ukrainian authorities about their Buk air defense systems and warplanes in the area of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777 jetliner crash in Ukraine, a source in the Russian power structures said on Saturday, July 19.

    "Unfortunately, instead of taking concrete measures to investigate the causes of the accident, specifically to ensure the security of evidence, the Ukrainian authorities, primarily the Security Council, are busy concocting all kinds of nonsense and insinuations, putting forth sweeping accusations and unconfirmed leads which are senseless to comment on," the source said.

    He noted that "there are already too many questions" to the Ukrainian authorities "about their Buks and warplanes in the area of the accident".

    "They must begin a large-scale investigation of all activities of the Air Force, the National Guard and other armed structures operating in Ukraine, which are countless and which are subordinated to no one. There are lots of things to investigate there," the source said.

    [Jul 19, 2014] Plane Down In Ukraine - Facts? Who Needs Facts?

    A Malaysian Boeing 777 with 295 people on board crashed today near Shakhtarsk 50 kilometer east of Donetsk, Ukraine.

    The appropriate key for "western" journalist to press now is this one.

    Over the now coming propaganda shit-storm the recent defeat of the coup-government troops will likely stay unreported.

    chet380 Jul 17, 2014 1:19:25 PM

    "He denied that the rebels possess the SA-17 Buk air-defense as Kiev alleges.

    However, the Associated Press reported that a similar launcher was seen by the agency's journalists near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne earlier Thursday. The Buk missile system can fire missiles up to an altitude of 22,000 meters (72,000 feet), AP said."

    This report will be repeated ad nauseum. pinning the blame on the Donbass forces.

    [Jul 19, 2014] Memories, recollections, guesses and speculations about MH17

    Jul 18, 2014 | vineyardsaker.blogspot.com

    Intro and caveat

    I think that any analysis of the events surrounding the downing of MH17 should begin with the following admission: no matter what, the AngloZionists will blame Russia. Just like 9/11, there is no way, no amount of evidence, which would affect the unanimous chorus of Imperial doubleplusgoodthinkers in their conclusion that obviously it could only have been "the Russians". So don't expect to come across The Proof which will prove that the Empire is lying because if 9/11 proved anything it is that even hard, undeniable truth can be easily ignored by the elites and their media.

    Second, I have to begin my "kind of analysis" with the following disclaimer: my information on air defense issues is about 25-30 years old which means that not only could my memory fail me, but things might have changed a great deal since I last was exposed to them. Finally, the place from which I observed air defense happening was a rather peculiar one: from a underground army command center's air defense room which included a live fused (civilian+military) image of all the air traffic over an entire continent. I never got anywhere near a SAM site in my life, and I sure have never seen one being operated. Still, there are a few things which I know which might be relevant to this case.

    If I got something wrong, or if things have recently changed, PLEASE CORRECT ME.

    How air defense normally works

    The control of airspace is done by two completely different networks: a civilian and a military one. The civilian one is the one people think of when they hear ATC (air traffic control). These are the folks who manage flight plans, who talk to pilots on different altitudes, who track the aircraft during the flight and make sure that there is enough distance between them. Depending on an airplane's altitude and what it is doing, it remains in contact with different ATCs but they all work together. One more thing: the radars used by civilian ATC are very primitive, all they can "see" is a bearing. What helps them is that all aircraft have a so-called "transponder" to transmit a special message which indicates their ID, speed, altitude and course. The ATC then superimposes that info on his screen to get a pretty accurate idea of what the aircraft is doing. The important thing about all this is that the military is normally patched straight into that data and that it can use it to supplement the data military radars acquire by themselves. In other words, a military air defense network "sees" and "knows" everything that a civilians ATC knows and sees.

    The task of military air defenses is dramatically different from the civilians ATC: the military expects to deal with aircraft who will do their utmost to remain undetected and once detected, the military air defense network has to figure out a way to hopefully shoot-down the enemy aircraft. As a result, the kind of technology used by the military is very different.

    The first "layer" of a military air defense network will be long range detection radars. Their task is to try to detect an airborne target as far as possible. Although one type of radar can do this alone, typically data from different radars (including airborne ones) is fused to create a single picture. Already at this point the air defense command post will be patched in into the civilians ATC and it will have all the flight plans, airline names, aircraft types and expected flight routes. The air defense command post's first task is to separate civilians (considered neutral) from possible hostiles. These 99% of flights are routine and regular, the folks in charge have a very good idea of what a normal sky looks like, they see the scheduled civilians aircraft doing their thing and they easily track them. Some military radars even have the capability to detect the kind of aircraft they are seeing on their radar simply by analyzing the radar signal bounced back (typically by the aircraft's engine). If a target is ambiguous, the military can use a very different type of radar to track that target: this target acquisition radar will operate on a different frequency, it will have a much narrower beam, and it will provide the operator with much more info about the aircraft even if the aircraft does not have a working transponder (which would be most unusual for a civilian airliner). Again, modern armed forces have the means to fuse the data from any different radar types (including airborne radars) to calculate a solution to identify and track a target. The next step is the send a special signal, like a password, to check if aircraft might not be one of your own. Civilian aircraft are not capable of this kind if "electronic handshake". Finally, if the military air defense command post believes that the target his hostile, it selects the best radar and missile combination to engage the target. Typically, this is done yet again by a highly specialized radar which sends a burst of energy to the target which is reflected by the airborne target and which is then caught either by a ground-based radar or even by the missile itself (that is called TVM track-via-missile) which then can guide itself to the target without emitting any signal (alternatively, the missile can use his own active guidance system which sends and receives radar signals). Advanced air defense networks, such as Russia's, can automatically chose the best radar for each task, the missile most likely to hit, the number of missiles needed for the task, the most threatening target, the mode of engagement, etc. These systems are highly integrated and highly automated, which also means that they are much safer than more primitive systems (more about that later). They are also highly redundant which in practical terms means that if, say, in an ideal environment a missile system like the Buk M1 is just one part of a much bigger network of systems, it can also operate almost autonomously if needed (again, more about that later). Now we need to look at the "who had what" on the day of the tragedy. First, let's look at

    The Russikies and their capabilities.

    While, obviously, they don't share with me the details of their moves, it is a pretty safe guess to say that, especially considering the war going on right across the border, the Russians literally had it all on that day: civilians radars, of course, but also long range radars (ground based and airborne), lots of advanced advanced surveillance (long range detection) radars, lots of tracking and fire control radars numerous radio and signal interception stations. Since all the data from this integrated network of systems could be fused at the higher level command posts we can safely assume that the Russian side had something like "20/20 radar vision": just about as good as it can get. There is no way the Russian shot down this aircraft by mistake.

    What about the Ukrainians?

    Here the reality is dramatically different: almost all of the Ukrainian air defense equipment is hopelessly outdated, far in excess of its normal shelf life. The Ukie air defense systems have not trained with live firing for dacades. Unlike the Russian who use contracted professionals on all crucial levels, the Ukies are known to be using conscripts simply due to a lack of funds. To illustrate the bloodly mess the Ukie air defenses are, it is enough to recall here how gross incompetence, mismanagement and outdated equipment resulted in the downing of the Siberi a clear signal identifying the aircraft. Let me add here that you can purchase special receivers and antennas which can receive transponder signals on the market and that they are comparatively cheap (1000 bucks range I think). Lastly, but still an option, a Ukie air defense operator could have simply lifted the phone, called the ATC and asked who such and such aircraft was. And even without that: when you see an aircraft flying right around 550 knots at 10'000m in a straight line in a civilian air traffic corridor, you can kinda guess that this is not a military aircraft on a bombing run. So regardless of the state of disrepair of the Ukie air defense forces, there is just no way that they could have mistaken this airliner for a Russian military jet flying on a combat mission. Oh, and did I mention MH17 was flying on west to east course, not from Russia, but towards Russia? Bottom line here for me is this: there is no way the Ukies could have shot down this aircraft by mistake.

    The Novorussians now

    Well, here again we truly have a dramatically different picture emerging. First, the Novorussians have no ATC. Second, 99% of their air defense systems are either MANPADs (man portable) or heavy machine guns. I did see footage of some kind of air defense radar and command post, but I suspect that this was simply one surveillance radar left by the Ukies. No data fusion here, no integrated air defense network, no long range missiles. Except for the few Buk M-1s which they did get as a trophy when they took control a Ukie base a month or so ago. The fact is that I am still unsure whether they really got anything operable systems at all (the Ukies claim that their soldiers had disabled them, but that might not be true). But we probably have to assume that they got their hands on a least one operational vehicle with its own surveillance radar, engagement radar and missiles. As I mentioned earlier, modern states would integrate the Buk into a full air defense network, but since in war time this might not be possible, it is possible for the Buk to detect, acquire and engage a target all by itself. Frankly, I find it very unlikely that the systems the Novorussians got their hands on would have been operational. I find it even more unlikely that they would also have the people to operate them. Still, just to cover our bases, we have to assume that with Russian aid these systems could have been more or less fixed, and that a crew could also have been sent from Russia. Unlikely? Far fetched? Yes. But, alas, not impossible.

    Still, there is the flight profile issue. The real threat for Novorussians comes from close air support (low level) and from reconnaissance (medium level) aircraft. Not those flying at 10'000 meters. Also, a Boeing 777 is much larger than an An-26, Su-25, Su-24 or even Su-27. Also, ask yourself, IF you had such a capable and advanced air defense system as the Buk, would you waste it on a poorly identified target? Probably not. Still, I think that at least in theory the Nororussians could have shot down this aircraft. Now let's look at the famous

    Cui bono?

    Well here at least the reply is unambiguous: only the junta in Kiev could have benefited from this tragedy. For the Russians and the Novorussians, this is something between a real pain and a disaster. Just when the Novorussians were winning without any overt help from Moscow and just when Moscow was gradually successful in denouncing the human costs of Poroshenko's murderous policies - suddenly the entire planet focuses just on one downed aircraft and the imperial corporate media blames it all on Russia. As for Poroshenko, this disaster is God-sent: not only has everybody forgotten that much promised "surprise" turned out to be a disaster, he can now kill scores of Novorussians with no risks of that being reported in the corporate media. Not only that, but that gives the Ukies a golden excuse to ask for ""protection" from their "aggressive and threatening neighbor". Again, the only party who can benefit from this disaster is the junta. So, in summary, we have this list of candidates:

    1) A deliberate or mistaken Russian attack: superlatively unlikely
    2) A mistaken Ukrainian attack: most unlikely
    3) A deliberate Ukrainian attack: most likely
    4) A mistaken Novorussian attack: possible
    5) A deliberate Novorussian attack: most unlikely

    I don't know about you, but to me #3 is the one blinking red.

    Now let's look at some of the crazy rumors which we have heard today.

    a) one or two Ukie military aircraft shadowing MH17 before it was shot down.
    b) at least one parachute after MH17 was shot down.
    c) an air-to-air attack.
    d) an attempt as shooting down Putin's aircraft.

    I don't know if any of these above are true, but what I do notice is that all of them, if true, only 'fit' scenario #3: a deliberate Ukie attack. Nobody claimed that MH17 was shadowed by Russian fighters and the Novorussians don't have any anyway (they only have one Su-25). If somebody was shot down (the parachutes) then it was most definitely not a Russian Air Force aircraft. Ditto for an air-to-air attack. As for shooting down Putin's aircraft, this seems far fetched to me, even for the crazy freak show in power in Kiev. However, I would not put that kind of trick passed Uncle Sam who can always blame it on the Ukies. What is sure is that the US wants Putin dead. So maybe?

    The current version of the Novorussians is an interesting one: they say that a Ukie Su-25 shot down MH17 and that they then shot down the Ukie Su-25. Actually, this is not the most unlikely possibility. Of course, this also means that if the Novorussians attempted to shoot down a Ukie Su-25 they might have missed and the missile might have continued towards the MH17 especially if its radar had gone active. So a Novorussian mistake is still a "possible", at least in my mind. If, and this is a big IF, this was a Novorussian mistake, I don't feel that we can blame them very much. The one undeniable fact is that this disaster happened in Ukrainian ATC space and they, the Ukie ATC, had the primary responsibility to keep MH17 in a safe air corridor and not the Novorussians who had neither the technical means nor the legal obligation to do so. Also, just a few days ago the Ukies had announced that they were closing the airspace over the combat zone to an altitude of 9600m (if I remember correctly). If the Novorussians heard this, they could have easily concluded that MH17 was a military recon flight flying towards Donestk from Dnepropetrovsk. Besides, I am not at all sure that the radar on the Buk M1 can differentiate between 9'600m and 10'000m or, if it can, that the operator would have been aware of the difference this could mean.

    Again, keep in mind my caveat above. I am not, repeat, not a specialist of air defenses. But I did do some air defense and monitoring work in my past, and on the basis of that experience and of what I have heard so far is here my guess:

    I would say that at this point in time I am 90% in favor of the deliberate Ukie attack theory. The remaining 10% I would give to the mistaken Novorussian attack version. I am more than willing to change my mind if I get new facts.

    Stuff we should look for

    First, the black boxes. Even when hit, most pilots have the time to say something and that something is usually recorded and radioed. Depending on the frequency used, that "something" should have been heard by PLENTY of receivers, not only the Ukie ATC. But at the very least, we should have the voice and data recorders from the last minutes of MH17.

    Second, Russian radar tracks. That is a problem. The Russian military is one of the worst offenders in terms of secrecy and short of a direct order by Putin, they are likely to be most uncooperative. Still, these guys probably have it all: ATC chatter, pilot messages, transporter signal, exact location of the missile(s) launched, point of impact, etc. As I said, they most likely had a 20/20 vision of the air space over Donetsk. The trick is to get them to share it, especially with the corporate media and the "independent" experts all already clamoring that the Russians are tampering with the flight recorders. Still, things are changing in Russia, possibly after the PR disaster following the Soviet shooting down of KAL 007 (which most definitely was a US spy mission and deliberate provocation), they are more willing to share data. A spokesman for the Russian Air Force has already disclosed that they had recorded the signals of a Ukie BukM1 battery surveillance radar at the moment of the tragedy. He even identified the exact Ukie unit involved. Hopefully, as this scandal snowballs, the Kremlin will order the Russian Air Force to make more data public. Not to convince Uncle Sam and his EU minions, of course, but at least to convince the rest of the planet.

    Speaking of Uncle Sam and his EU minions. They also know. The US and NATO maintains a 24/7 surveillance of Ukie and Russian air space at least to the Urals, possibly even on the other side (though I am not sure). I bet you that Obama was told who done it within 2 hours of the tragedy happening. That info was probably shared with the Echelon countries, but not with the rest of NATO, but even they probably know thanks to their own intelligence capability (Banderastan is chock-full of EU spies not a single one of which was ever caught by the Ukie SBU since independence!). So here again we have a 9/11 kind of situation: everybody knows, but nobody will admit it.

    The last question then

    There is an obvious last question which we need to ask: if the Ukies did it, could they have done so without the US knowing about it? The answer, in case anybody had any doubts about this, is absolutely categorically and emphatically not. No way Jose, not this regime, not one which is 110% dependent of, and submitted to, Uncle Sam. In other words, if this was a deliberate Ukie attack, then this really was a deliberate US attack. Not quite a "false flag", but a sneaky dirty trick, a longtime US specialty. The typical US way works like this: organized and planned by Uncle Sam, paid for by the Saudis, executed by the Israelis. At least that is the historical record for US dirty tricks. That is also most likely how 9/11 was done. Why bring in 9/11 several times at the risk of infuriating the doubleplusgoodthinking crowd yet again? No, not just for the heck of it, but to remind everybody that the folks who killed 3000+ people on 9/11 would not hesitate for a nanosecond to kill "only" 300 or so, especially if the risk of getting caught is negligible, which in this case it is. If in the case of 9/11 it is the entire Establishment which by stupidity or by cowardice which was made an accomplice of the crime, in this case the folks who did it will have the support of a rabidly russophobic Establishment which will not care one bit about the truth as long as it allows it to further flame the flames of hatred against Russia.

    A provisional conclusion of sorts - Lasciate Ogni Speranza

    This crime will never be properly investigated nor will the culprits ever be punished for it. Oh sure, there will be plenty of books in the future who will reveal it all in minute details but, as Michel Parenti always reminds us, history is not only written by victors, it is also written by the elites, the oligarchs, the banking establishment, the 1%ers. If anything, 9/11 has proven that our society is completely indifferent to facts and proof. Our society is ruled by ideological dogma and political expediency. In the case of MH17 the accepted dogma is that the Novorussians are the bad guys and the political expediency says that this latest crime cannot be blamed on the "heroic Euro-Ukrainian freedom fighters" or, even less so, on Uncle Sam.

    Just as I wrote this last sentence above, I decided to check my favorite Imperial Mouthpiece and, sure enough, I read this: "US President Barack Obama has said a surface-to-air missile fired from a rebel-held area in east Ukraine brought down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17". See, it is that simple! How needs flight recorders of radar tracks anyway?! If the US President said so, then it is so. Any other interpretation is a criminal delusion bordering on terrorism. Who needs proof when we got both Poroshenko and Obama saying that the Russikies did it?

    I am disgusted beyond words by both of these ugly, evil, clowns.

    Well, I hope that that some of you will have found the exercises above useful, regardless of all my caveats. I wish my recollection of working with air defenses was better and I wish my knowledge was not 25 year old. As always, this is the best I can do and I share it to you, my friends, in the hope to resist the imperial propaganda machine the best I can. If there are those amongst you who have a more recent and possibly more hands-on knowledge of these topics, I beg them to share that knowledge with the rest of us.

    Kind regards and many thanks,

    The Saker

    Selected Comments
    Anonymous, 18 July, 2014 23:44
    My guess is it is a mix:

    100% Chance Ukrainian Kiev intentional directed the plane over that path and lowered its flight path to 1000 m above prohibited space, AND (then 50% Ukrainians shot it down OR 50% the Self Defense Forces shot it down thinking it was a Military Plane. )

    In all cases, it is the Ukrainian Kiev failure to indicate that should be a complete no fly zone. Now in return, I have seven apartments in Lugansk being shelled by massive Ukrainian Arty attacks with the Ukrainians Lying Openly and claiming the LPR is shelling their own city.

    Which mind you many of these LPR people are Lugansk Residents. Lugansk has a much larger percentage of Lugansk residents then Donetsk. Non of the peole I know would ever shell Lugansk willingly.

    Frankly the decision to NOT have refugee camps for civilians in Ukrainian Territory says it pretty much. The goal is to drive AS MANY of the people (civilians) as possible out of Eastern Ukraine permanently.

    Unfortunately for the Ukrainians, the officer staff of the DPR is significantly more competent then the ATO forces. Fairly obvious. Yes, I wrote once or twice before. Need to visit Florida.

    Anonymous, 19 July, 2014 00:00

    What is happening with the offensive against junta? Was it all stopped because of this, evidently Kiev's/CIA engineered, crime against the passengers of the Malaysian airline? There is absolutely no news of any kind on this front. It seems to be like this is yet another layer of evil directed at the anti-Nazi resistance of Novorossiya.

    Sligo, 19 July, 2014 00:07

    Spin isn't reality. This business will do nothing to change the facts on the ground. I can pretty much guarantee that no popular Western crusade against Russia or the Eastern Separatists will develop as a result of this. The civil war will grind on.

    The self-generated media hysteria will accomplish nothing and in a week or so the MSM will be off yipping and hooting at the newest bright and shiny thing.

    Nobody will be prosecuted. Someday the facts may come out, but nobody but enthusiasts will care.

    Anonymous:

    Another very, very simple question:

    Why would pro-Russian fighters even target an aircraft flying at 33,000 ft. and clearly headed into Russia which is only 20 something miles away.

    Personally, I think this is in a realm of total impossibility.

    123abc

    I think it's safe to say that ultimately there won't be conclusive evidence about who is responsible for the planecrash.

    The positions at the UN security council remained unchanged. Russia's foes accused Novorussia and/or Russia. Russia's friends remained neutral and insisted on impartial investigations. Given that there won't be proof either way I think that ultimately the planecrash is not a gamechanger. The long-term projects (Eurasia, BRICS) will continue. Short-term there will be more sanctions, but they won't be life-threatening.

    Russia has already successfully dealt with at least one such incident (Ghouta), so it is experienced in maneuvering in such stressful situations on the diplomatic front, it also has experience in doing sufficient propaganda work to fizzle out MSM hysteria. Sanctions will come, but Europe didn't fall for Ghouta, so hopefully they will also not fall for the planaecrash incident. My only concern is that there is a danger that the propaganda work may be overdone, for example „Der Spiegel" is already portraying Putin as a crazy conspiracy theorist.

    What we can expect is that the US increases weapons supply to the junta, maybe even overtly. But I hope it won't really change anything substantial on the ground. Russia will have to be more careful with supplying Donbass, but I think they will manage somehow.

    The worst case is that someone from Novorussian Army mistakenly shot down the plane and that undeniable proof comes out. Is that a gamechanger? I think only if Europe wants it to be.

    The question is will Russia still be able to support Novorussia? I think yes, they will call for the responsible to face punishment, there will be hysteria, but it could be concentrated on one person, or a small group of persons. And a month or two after that everything will continue like before.

    JohnM

    This whole "incident" has the same smell as the Syrian gas attack false flag.

    There will likely be the same kind of bullshit that followed that one.

    I agree that the Russian military should have ALL the information on this, especially if Putin's plane had been in the air ANYWHERE near the area or ANYWHERE close to the time it occurred.

    Does any intelligent adult believe anything coming out of the Ukrainian Junta's propaganda machine anymore?

    Anonymous
    Virgin Atlantic plane was in same area as MH17: Packed Heathrow-bound airliner was flying through Ukrainian airspace at same time as Malaysia Airlines aircraft was shot out the sky

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2697098/THREE-HUNDRED-planes-scheduled-fly-Ukraine-day-MH17-tragedy.html#ixzz37sKMV0wt

    So how come the Novorussians decided to shoot at MH17, but at none of the 100s of others before it?

    There is no way Novorussians would see MH17 as anything other than one of the 100s of airliners that have traversed their territory.

    mijj said...

    yeh .. presenting evidence won't change US Regime propaganda one iota. But, intelligent people who are wondering will welcome anything that has basis in reality.

    What matters more than convincing the US Regime leaders to face reality, is to convert the people into basing their views on evidence rather than propaganda. Ie. the schism between the Regime and it's people is in proportion to the difference between the propaganda and reality.

    The US Regime rulers have a mindset where they think they can create a reality by controlling information. But we're all embedded within reality, reality isn't a figment of the imagination to be controlled by propaganda. we all have an instinct for when propaganda differs from reality .. so, that instinct needs to be helped along by presentation of evidence whenever possible.

    /rant

    Mario Drumond said...

    I am writing in Portuguese with English translation from Google. My comment disputes the Saker in the following point: the important thing is not knowing who shot down the plane of Malaysia but who put him where he was. And we know that Kiev was the guilty one of this. If the resistance militias shot down, did the legitimate right of defense since it does not have air force or information or air traffic control in the region and thus for them anything that fly over their heads is the enemy attack. But if the forces of the coup regime did so, it is a war crime as they have access to all information of air traffic in the region. It is known that the coup regime of Kiev thinks about war crimes.

    Thus, anyone who guided the aircraft passengers to the center of the fire, or has allowed it drove there is to blame for the accident. I would think so if any of my loved ones were on that plane.

    DonbassBrussels said...

    Saker thanks for this analysis.I do have a probably stupid question for you,but anyway.

    I can't believe that MH has two fatal ''accidents''(one being this missile attack,but nobody knows what happened to the other MH flight earlier in march).

    The probabilities of the very same airline,with the very same type of boeing(777)having twice in a such short period of time two fatal crash and or attacks,are near 0.000000000001 pct for me.

    I used to work in the airline industry,MH is not a bad company eventhough they are no Emirates or or any other IATA legacy airline.

    They don't have so many flights from Europe to KUL compared to their competitors.They must have been targeted and chosen on purpose.

    Do you think Malaysia could have a kind of conflict with the empire?And that maybe because they did not get the RIGHT message(blackmail)with the first crash..we have a second attack over Ukraine...and over the Donbass and indirectly against MH..very very very strange coincidence no?

    I'm not a conspiracy theorist fan at all,but I do have difficulties to believe that.
    Like we say in french'faire d'une pierre deux coups'.The Empire(US/NATO/UE)having used this flight for both aims,the first being to destroy the credibility of Russia/dpr once and for all,and the second,a second attack on MH and or Malaysia for a reason we don't know?
    Let' s note that the first MH flight involved China and this time it is Russia..two BRICS countries and the two most and probably last ennemies resisting the anglozio empire.
    What do you think about that?

    Thanks coop.

    nb: just thinking about a mossad or mercenaries possibility as the Oligarchs have very deep connections in Israel and very deep pockets as well, eventhough they are quiet buzy in Gaza for the moment.

    But never know..

    John-Albert said...

    As several people have pointed out, the BUK was sent into the SE for some reason. And the BUK is principally designed to shoot aircraft down. There are not yet SE aircraft. Only Ukes and civilians. I think via Occam's razor we have it there. The BUK are *inappropriate* for SE battle, period. So I conclude the Ukrainians moved the BUK into SE with the clear intention of shooting a civilian airliner down and blame it on Russia, which they've managed to do. They had that flight fly as low as possible, to make certain of the BUK success. Cui Bono + Occam Razor convinces me.

    Q said...

    Collateral Damage

    I find it far to early for anybody to blame any side.
    First one assumes that as with any civilian death in a war-zone that it was unintended collateral damage. To fly into a war-zone that has every day airplanes shot at is a risk no airline should take if alternate routes are available.
    At this stage nothing should be excluded. One may speak about probabilities - anybody who claims to know what happened only creates suspicion on himself.
    One more possibility would be that a bomb had been placed in the plane which was triggered either by gps or radio-signal to explode over the conflict zone.
    The story with a su-25 being the one who shot it down doesn't sound reasonable. Those planes don't fly at 10000m and usually have very limited air to air capability. They normally carry only air to ground weapons and are to slow to chase an airliner at 10000m/900+kmh anyway.
    One can never exclude pure coincidence but two airplanes in a few month is stressing chance to the limit. Especially as many predicted that MH370 would reappear in a false flag. MH17 is a bit like seeing a ghost plane.
    Anyway lets hope that is not another
    RMS Lusitania.

    keyhoti1 said...

    I got some information on the Buk system.

    It requires a minimum of four vehicles - five if extra missiles are carried, or the launch vehicle is not loaded.

    The three other vehicles are for detection, aiming and control.

    A highly trained crew of 15-17 personnel is required, so it all points to the Junta eh, given all else.

    Larchmonter445

    On the way to my advanced degree in Communications I studied Mass Communications and Propaganda.

    An overarching Law of Communication came from Goebbels.
    "He who says it first is right."

    Hitler's Basic Principles of Communication were simple.

    Avoid abstract ideas - appeal to the emotions.
    Constantly repeat just a few ideas. Use stereotyped phrases.
    Give only one side of the argument.
    Continuously criticize your opponents.
    Pick out one special "enemy" for special vilification.


    Goebbels' Principles of Propaganda developed the art into science.

    Propagandists must have access to intelligence concerning events and public opinion.

    Propaganda must be planned and executed by only one authority.
    It must issue all the propaganda directives.
    It must explain propaganda directives to important officials and maintain their morale.
    It must oversee other agencies' activities which have propaganda consequences.

    The Propaganda consequences of an action must be considered in planning that action.

    Propaganda must affect the enemy's policy and actions.
    By suppressing propagandistically desirable material which can provide the enemy with useful intelligence.
    By openly disseminating propaganda whose contents or tone causes the enemy to draw the desired conclusions.
    By goading the enemy into revealing vital information about himself.
    By making no reference to a desired enemy activity when any reference would discredit that activity.
    Declassified, operational information must be available to implement a propaganda campaign.
    To be perceived, propaganda must evoke the interest of an audience and must be transmitted through an attention-getting medium.
    Credibility alone must determine whether propaganda output should be true or false.
    The purpose, content, and effectiveness of enemy propaganda; the strength and effects of an expose'; and the nature of current propaganda campaigns determine whether enemy propaganda should be ignored or refuted.
    Credibility, intelligence, and the possible effects of communicating determine whether propaganda materials should be censored.
    Material from enemy propaganda may be utilized in operations when it helps diminish that enemy's prestige or lends support to the propagandist's own objective.
    Black rather than white propaganda must be employed when the latter is less credible or produces undesirable effects.

    Propaganda may be facilitated by leaders with prestige.

    Propaganda must be carefully timed.
    The communication must reach the audience ahead of competing propaganda.
    A propaganda campaign must begin at the optimum moment.
    A propaganda theme must be repeated, but not beyond some point of diminishing effectiveness.

    Propaganda must label events and people with distinctive phrases or slogans.
    They must evoke responses which the audience previously possesses.
    They must be capable of being easily learned.
    They must be utilized again and again, but only in appropriate situations.
    They must be boomerang-proof.

    Propaganda to the home front must prevent the raising of false hopes which can be blasted by future events.

    Propaganda to the home front must create an optimum anxiety level.

    Propaganda must reinforce anxiety concerning the consequences of defeat.

    Propaganda must diminish anxiety (other than that concerning the consequences of defeat) which is too high and cannot be reduced by people themselves.

    Propaganda to the home front must diminish the impact of frustration.
    Inevitable frustrations must be anticipated.
    Inevitable frustrations must be placed in perspective.

    Propaganda must facilitate the displacement of aggression by specifying the targets for hatred.

    Propaganda cannot immediately affect strong counter-tendencies; instead it must offer some form of action or diversion, or both.

    These would be principles guiding the conduct of propaganda operations.

    Larchmonter445 said...

    james@wpc said...
    It has only ever been the psychopaths against the rest of us. So I think it wise to reject all labels they use to divide us and see ourselves as one humanity that instinctively cares for each other.

    Good advice. And the perspective on the Elites as psychopaths is correct. They brag on Wall Street of their own pathology. Books are written of the psychodynamics of these rulers of economy, military and politics.

    Anonymous said...

    From your first paragraph:

    "...no matter what, the AngloZionists will blame Russia..."

    Earlier today I took a screenshot of an NBCNEWS page. A video had a short descriptive sentence which was spooky, sad and comical all at the same time. It is like watching the movie 1984 but it is real life and I cannot leave the theatre.

    "Officials are trying to find out whether Ukrainian separatists or Russians fired the shot that took down Flight 17.

    Published July 17th 2014, 6:55 PM"

    http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-plane-crash/who-fired-surface-air-missile-n158961

    Nora said...

    AGS,

    "I don't want America destroyed. I want her REDEEMED. Any American who DOESN'T want that is NOT an American."

    AMEN, Sister! Thank you for all you said. God, if we could just all work together developing strategies to regain control of our politicians and rein in the oligarchs instead of bickering and blustering and attacking each other.

    james@wpc,

    That was an excellent comment. Yes, psychopaths are drawn to power like moths to a flame -- but in a system of representative government the constraints on their power, regardless of however well it was designed, still boil down to the same thing: the willingness of the public to get, and stay, involved in the process. That is precisely where we dropped the ball, and while we were busy doing other things, the danged ball got hidden and we don't even know where to look.

    But the answers to this dilemma are out there just waiting for us to get our act together enough to.. act together and get something done that really matters, to everyone eveyrwhere. Please folks, let's get going on at least getting along and trying to decide what we really want, and the best means of achieving it.

    the original Paul said...

    The DPR militia did aquire a BUK system.

    http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/11020.html

    But, here is the kicker. Notice the red tips on the missiles. This designates they are training rounds with inert warheads. Red tips on missiles to designate training or test rounds is a standard practice for all ex-Soviet states including Russia and Ukraine. The DPR leaders, or anyone knowing how to use this equipment, would know this and would never try to use them to actually shoot something down.

    If you look at any deployed BUK launchers, they always have white tips. These are live. I have not seen any evidence that the militia have acquired live missiles to replace the test rounds. This could be a good reason why we have not seen them deployed or talked about since they were acquired. This could also explain the conflicting reports from Kiev about the militia having them and then not having an active system.

    WizOz 19 July, 2014 04:19

    @Larchmonter445

    You are unfair to the real father of Propaganda, Edward Bernays, the nephew of Dr. Freud, who wrote in 1928 a book entitled "Propaganda"!

    I stumbled upon the following @http://open.salon.com/blog/rw005g/2010/08/24/propaganda_part_i_bernays_and_goebbels

    "I remember a book I read called PR: A Social History of Spin. The author discussed how the Nazi Minister of Propaganda, Dr. Josef Goebbels, was an ardent student of Mr. Bernays, despite the fact that Mr. Bernays was Jewish. Goebbels desperately wanted to meet Mr. Bernays and apparantly sent numerous books to him to be autographed. We don't know if Mr. Bernays autographed them, but Goebbels claimed that he did. Goebbels, who had a PhD in philosophy (which is crucual in terms of understanding how he was able to understand Bernays and apply his writings in the way that he did), apparantly had an even larger library on propaganda than Mr. Bernays and had not only read all of his books, but had largely memorized a good deal of them as well.

    Goebbels was able to utilize Bernays' ideas on propaganda in a manner that was the most malicious and homicidal ever seen in the 20th century: to support the Final Solution".

    Actually you find a good presentation of Stuart Ewen's book "PR!A Social History of Spin" @PR! A Social History of Spin; Mapping out the Development of PR" (pdf).

    Anonymous said...

    Fwd from Canuckistan
    @Larchmonter445
    Thx for that excellent summary re: propaganda.

    It will surely help "us" in our collective quest to counter and challenge "our" yellow journalists that repeat the narrative and precanned scripts that fuel the politicos suspicious motives.

    @Saker et @all, thx for your continued efforts and keep fightin' the good fight!

    "Propaganda is as propaganda does,eh?"

    Writer said...

    Saker,

    Listing and comparing all possibilities is good logical discipline and a useful exercise in any confusing situation. With that in mind, one possibility has not been adequately examined, an attack using interceptor aircraft. To understand why, compare the characteristics of an interceptor to a surface-to-air missile.

    A manned interceptor allows a visual identification of the target. (This is particularly important in peacetime operations.) It also allows confirmation of destruction, with repeated attack, if necessary. And it allows (at altitude) the use of guns rather than guided rockets. While none of these may have been an issue in this case, there is another characteristic that makes an interceptor attack quite distinctive: it can be done at long range.

    This means (in principle) that anyone within a thousand kilometers (or more) could have attacked that aircraft. Of course, this goes "down the rabbit hole" quite far, but it is a possibility, and should be considered.

    Having said this, and together with everything else that has been said on this subject, one might ask, what was the purpose of this attack? Besides the propaganda value, it is a distraction from what is actually happening "on the ground", so to speak. It allows the media, and whole societies, to focus on something of little significance while ignoring important developments. In that respect, it has been successful, even here in this forum.

    Perhaps this war has a similar function, in a wider context.

    Anonymous said... 19 July, 2014 05:25

    "The death of about 300 people fully lies at the Ukrainian government's door," Matviyenko said. The incumbent authorities in Kiev "are like thimble-riggers - they say one thing and do a totally opposite thing."

    "Independent investigation will give all the necessary assessments and we hope it will cool off the hotheads in Kiev and will bring them back to senses and will show them that it's impossible to continue the combat actions because a full-blown civil war will be the next phase," she said.

    Anonymous said...

    You don't even need to walk on the quicksand of "nineelven" for an example. There are plenty of undisputed (any more) ones.

    Remember the Maine anyone ?The US blew up one of its own battleships with about 1200 men onboard, just to start a war with Spain. How about the Tonkin Gulf incident...even mainstream corporate press admit that was a set up.

    What about the recent sarin gas attack on Syrian peasants arranged by the degenerate govt. of Turkey with the foreknowledge and tacit approval of the Obama administration ? That's been outered in detail by Seymour Hersh..

    Anonymous said...

    Thanks for the analysis. This is a False Flag in the oldest tradition of the US War Party. I'm sure Russia knows exactly what happened. The ukie air space must be the most closely monitored in the world.

    AGS said...

    To JamesWPS. Here's a question. Name a successful world leader in the last 100 years who was not ruthless. Its a prerequisite for leadership these days.

    I have NEVER hopped on the bandwagon to criticize Putin just for shits and giggles. He's a pretty pragmatic guy. He wants to move Russia forward. And he's sick of ruthless American hegemony which is responsible for a lot of human suffering in the last century. I get all that. Given the spiraling moral depravity of ZUSA -- I sympathize. But he learned his craft at KGB. If I can pull up my big-girl panties and admit that GHWBush wasn't just some well-mannered patrician (but a ruthless CIA black-ops chief) then you can admit Putin is ruthless too. You can argue Putin has better reasons for being ruthless. Don't know. Doesn't matter. He wouldn't be President of Russia if he were NOT ruthless.

    I'll say this one more time. I have NO FUCKING CLUE who shot that plane out of the air. But I would bet the farm that Obama and Putin DO know exactly who pushed the button -- and why. I don't think Kiev or Novorussia fired the missile. It's possible. But unlikely. I believe someone WANTS us to believe Kiev or Novorussia was responsible. Ineptitude or fog-of-war is more palatable than purposeful intent when you kill a bunch of passengers and families on a civilian flight. US could have done it. We have the means and ability and are RUTHLESS enough to kill innocent civilians with missiles. Some might say we've had lots of practice. But no one has offered a rationale for that scenario that seems plausible. Russia had the means, expertise, opportunity and MAYBE -- based on what Strelkov said was found at the crash site -- a rationale for it. We will never know. Ever.

    My only job -- as a part of humanity -- is to be a filter for TRUTH. Shilling or spinning for EITHER the blue or red team is cring-worthy. I'm too much of a snob to shill for anyone. Truth doesn't need shilling.

    Andrew said...

    Saker:

    Starting from about noon today in the eastern US, the Russians have been sitting back with a wide Cheshire grin, as oppose to the suspicious panic they had yesterday.

    Old Ez posted a very interesting link upthread - I would say by far this is the most interesting post on the thread.

    This tells me two things. Yesterday, the Russians knew the plane had been shot down with a SAM launched in Donbass, but they weren't sure immediately who had done it since they knew that the DNR had Buk systems obtained from Ukraine that Russia may very well have helped make recently operable. Today they were able to confirm to their own satisfaction that it was the Ukrainian military that is the guilty party, whether out of sheer incompetence as with the Transsiberia shoot down, or out of conspiratorial malice, which is my suspicion and likely theirs.

    So today we see Russia rejecting the possibility of the black boxes being delivered to them and saying Kiev should lead the investigation of this mess (in other words confidently sitting back knowing they have a Royal Flush in their own military data as to exactly what happened), blaming the Kiev MOD for having brought operational AA SAM systems in theater and pointedly suggesting they were the origin point of the shoot down, and threatening to back up NAF with military force in the event of further cross-border artillery provocations. Russia in other words is sitting back and rolling with the western punches, confident that no matter what the West and Ukraine try to spin and release as "the truth", they will be able to trump with leaks of their own intelligence data that show exactly who did it from within the Ukraine military.

    Western newspapers relying on CIA/NSA/DIA sources have leaked the sort of "primitive" intelligence we might suspect the US to be capable of providing in this theater from satellites and whatever assets it has in Turkey, the Black Sea, and elsewhere nearby and correctly concluded that a missile was launched from the conflict area and not from Russia. If they have figured out more than that, such as the specific launch location or system used, they haven't yet let on, and I am not sure they would be able to get that specific..

    Russia on the other hand not only has its own air defence radar and data systems immediately adjacent to the crash site as opposed to hundreds of miles away, but also has the benefit that the Ukrainian systems (both ATC and AA defense) were all formerly operationally linked with Russia's, with the likelihood that book door access capability still exists into their operating data, to say nothing of innumerable Russian agents with the SBU, military, and MIA able to provide human intelligence, as well as of course direct access to NAF intelligence gathering. It is therefore highly likely that Russia knows exactly where the missile was fired from, what Ukrainian unit did it, and has a voice recording of the fire command and related crosstalk from Ukrainian military coms and also from Kiev-Borispol and Dnipropetrovsk ATC.

    In other words, Ukraine can spin all they want, but Russia is going to dribble the real truth out slowly unless Ukraine will just man up and explain what happened to a candid world.

    karlof1 said...

    Operation Northwoods was the template for 9/11. The actual documents are publicly available at the National Security Archive, http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/

    As I've outlined, World War 3 has already begun, and the latest BRICS moves present a very big challenge to the US Empire, and the war within Ukraine is just one of many engagement fronts already occurring. Like the Hydra, the Unipolar Power is very resilient at fighting off the efforts to bring about a multi-polar world and has never wavered from shedding blood--anyone's.

    I predict the intensity on the global scale will escalate and a new "hot spot" will sprout.

    Andrew said...

    I don't know if anyone else has noticed this little item, but isn't it funny how when 300 precious westerners are killed in Ukraine, it is an international outrage, but when Ukraine kills that many Russian among its own citizenry in the matter of perhaps a week by bombing, strafing, missiles, artillery, shooting, there is crickets chirping?

    Could it be because as we already know thanks to Hitler, Streicher, Yatseniuk, and Poroshenko, Russians are subhuman? So their death's don't even count? Like Palestinians? Who just in one day saw as many of their compatriots die at the hands of Israel as died in MH17 crash with nary a peep of outrage from the West?

    Anonymous said...

    Про "фальшивого" диспетчера (About the "fake" Manager)

    http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1680221.html (trans) http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.ru/colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1680221.html

    "After the sensational statements Spanish Manager who worked at the Boryspil airport and reported the fact of destruction of the "Boeing" Kyiv junta, was quickly brushed his Twitter (which is pointless - screenshots is more than enough) and began trying to discredit the source, saying that not the Manager and he was not such a person.
    It is quite logical for fascists and their accomplices, as the Spaniard actually start torpedoed preparing a provocation. In fact, as mentioned earlier, the Spaniard more than real and flashed in the press long before history with the destruction of the "Boeing" Kyiv by the Nazis. For example, here is the note from may 9, 2014.

    Spanish blogger about the situation in Ukraine: People filled with hatred

    Spanish blogger Carlos (@spainbuca) used his Twitter page to offer their own vision of what is happening in Ukraine, where he has several years of experience with the air traffic controller. However, the radicals called "separatist agitator" and demand his expulsion from the country. On his Twitter page Carlos running Manager in Borispol, seeks to present objective information about the events in Ukraine without trying to join any of the conflicting parties. Unlike many large European media, he is not afraid to admit that to death in Odessa involved far-right radicals, and the Ukrainian military men are not eager to fight against their own citizens in the South-East of the country, as required by Kyiv authorities. Some readers thank him for his detailed and unbiased coverage of political crisis in Ukraine, others require for his expulsion and even death. "I have my own opinion, their own point of view, the point of view of an ordinary man with a job that does not imply any dependencies. I do not belong to the media, to any political party," emphasizes blogger. "I think people are filled with hate . I do not see the possibility of returning to the West and East of peaceful life together. ... This conflict, and the people don't want it resolved. And hatred is so great , at least in Kyiv that this country, I think, will not be able to live in peace and tranquility," Carlos said in an interview with RT. "My co-workers are not only intended to inform the authorities about what I give my point of view, they are urged to ensure that sent me a whole battalion to have me deported to get me killed, " said the Spaniard. - I had a meeting with the security service of one of the European embassies, during which they told me that I better bring his family out of the country within 24 hours. In the end, I listened and day took my wife and daughter from Ukraine".

    http://so-l.ru/news/show/15524137 - zinc

    Of course he they will try to shut up and try to discredit, as his testimony ideally complement the testimony of several witnesses who had seen the aircraft junta near the crash site.

    PS. Also in the topic.
    1. The "Buk", which the junta was trying to pass for a Russian, was documented through Krasnoarmeysk occupied by the junta from may, it was no one rocket.
    2. According to the message of Zygobranchia, "Boeing" was first fired from the Ukrainian "Buka", calculation missed and the ship was finished with rockets "air-air" with the Ukrainian aircraft.
    3. In General, various Conspirology in my opinion complicates the problem - facts indicate that the "Boeing" was shot down by a Ukrainian aircraft that was the reason of his death. The version with "Bukh" in my opinion is a false trail."

    Perhaps the Buk missile took out one of the Ukrainian fighters, which accounts for the parachute seen, and the remaining fighter then shot down the airliner.

    Paul II said...


    Victor,

    Perhaps they don't want people to contaminate the crime scene. It is looking entirely possible/likely that an air-to-air missile was used, and they need protect the evidence.

    As for a BUK, sounds like more noise in the endless noise around the Anglo-American Empire's desire to maintain control of the world.

    Sampanviking said...

    As you said Saker Cui Bono

    Look not only at the combat position on the ground (you do not need me to list that for you) but also further afield.

    First you have Europe and US wholly out of step over sanctions and the EU unable to agree its new President and Foreign Minister, purely on account of Russia

    Second - within hours the Israeli ground offensive starts to roll and has the best media shield money could buy!

    Anonymous said...

    Just to add possibilities:
    Consideration against a deliberate Ukies shot downof MH17: they should know that the debris would fall in Novorussia controlloned areas and then profs possibly found.
    Then, addo this.
    If, for some reason, high altitude reconnaissance russian aircrafts were in the area, the Ukies tryed to hit them with such Buk missiles (recently rushed in the region). In the route was the MH17, or the aircraft/aricrafts entered in the MH17 shadow. So the missiles (such AA missiles are fired in salvos, no just one), hit the MH17 and, possibly the (or one of the) russian aircraft.

    Anonymous said... 19 July, 2014 05:25

    "The death of about 300 people fully lies at the Ukrainian government's door," Matviyenko said. The incumbent authorities in Kiev "are like thimble-riggers - they say one thing and do a totally opposite thing."
    "Independent investigation will give all the necessary assessments and we hope it will cool off the hotheads in Kiev and will bring them back to senses and will show them that it's impossible to continue the combat actions because a full-blown civil war will be the next phase," she said.

    Anonymous said...

    You don't even need to walk on the quicksand of "nineelven" for an example. There are plenty of undisputed (any more) ones.

    Remember the Maine anyone ?The US blew up one of its own battleships with about 1200 men onboard, just to start a war with Spain. How about the Tonkin Gulf incident...even mainstream corporate press admit that was a set up.

    What about the recent sarin gas attack on Syrian peasants arranged by the degenerate govt. of Turkey with the foreknowledge and tacit approval of the Obama administration ? That's been outered in detail by Seymour Hersh..

    Anonymous said...

    Thanks for the analysis. This is a False Flag in the oldest tradition of the US War Party. I'm sure Russia knows exactly what happened. The ukie air space must be the most closely monitored in the world.

    Anonymous said...

    Fools think 'the truth' will save Russia- but the famous saying "truth is the first casualty in war" is ever true. The 'zionists' took control of the mainstream and fake alternative media outlets to control the 'truth' perceived by the sheeple- and in this aim they are 100% successful.

    False flags are used because false flags work. That a false flag is a lie by definition never matters. False flags are always a small part of a well co-ordinated propaganda effort.

    The aim of the West was to draw Russia into the Ukrainian situation (by threatening to eject Russia from its essential port in Crimea), but ensuring Putin did not take the big step and liberate the entire region of Novorussia. The 'stick' was the claim that if Russia went into Ukraine, the West would immediately go into Syria. This argument persuaded Putin to be an 'appeaser', and we all know how that works out.

    Did you know the BBC claims that all the shelling on civilian areas in Novorussia is actually likely to be a result of rebel ground-to-ground missile strikes? You and I would choke on the thought of a lie that big, but the BBC states that lie every time it covers the situation in Novorussia.

    Their evil knows no bounds. If you make the mistake of thinking that because your opponent is the West, in some sense there is 'hope' because the values of the West are fundamentally 'good', you are literally insane.

    I would humbly suggest you look again at how the 'Allies' (the West) fought WW2. Not even Genghis Khan had the same taste for exterminating whole cities full of innocent Humans that the British and Americans used as their main method of waging war. Yes, the wartime Japanese were unthinkably evil, and the Nazis ruthless beyond all excuse, but the Allies were led by a far higher evil- one that used every aspect of WW2 to prepare the ground for one final World War- the World War we are drawing ever closer to.

    BuckHam said...

    The actual airliner shooting and the corresponding mass propaganda are a clear indication of the "target Russia strategy" and the culpability of the puppet masters.

    circumstantial evidence shows it.officially facts don't matter, they never did. the western propaganda machinery will not be distracted from it's ultimate goal: the dismantling of Russia by all means.Voltaire net's quote is most fitting here:

    "Since the attacks of September 11, we are witnessing a transformation of the way the media report the news. They lock us in the unreal. They base truth not on the coherence of a presentation, but on its shocking character. Thus, the observer remains petrified and cannot establish a relation to reality.

    The media are lying to us, but at the same time, they show us that they are lying. It is no longer a matter of changing our perception of facts in order to get our support, but to lock us in the spectacle of the omnipotence of power. Showing the annihilation of reason is based on images that serve to replace facts. Information no longer focuses on the ability to perceive and represent a thing, but the need to experience it, or rather to experience oneself through it."

    http://www.voltairenet.org/article184787.html

    The Lockerbie case which turned factsupside down blaming Lybia's Ghaddafi is a case in point (among others).


    Think! Peace in Palestine would be trivial for the West if it were desired. Peace in the Ukraine simply required the same solution witnessed peacefully in Czechoslovakia- a division into new nations on long-standing ethnic lines. The destruction of Libya, Syria and Iraq only happened because the West chose such evil. When the 'Cold War' ended, the West actually ramped up its nuclear weapons programs, ending the anti-missile treaties so 'first strike' nuclear strategies could be advanced.

    Humanity does not want World War, but the mosters that rule the West surround themselves with various types of influential death-cult servants like the zionists and fundamental 'Christians' (who are not Christians, because they follow the Jewish Old Testament/Torah which Christ and his followers specifically rejected when they created their new religion).

    The entire ruling class in the USA wants to see Russians subject to the same never-ending military aggression that the Palestinian people live with on a daily basis, yet Putin chooses to cosy up to the monsters of Israel, because of their historic links to Russia.

    Russia's supreme strategy is to own a nuclear arsenal far, far larger than most suspect, and to ensure that if the worst happens, they have the absolute capability of wiping out every square inch of the USA. What this fails to take into account is that the ultimate evil that has taken control of the West is anti-life. It craves the destruction of all life on Earth- to turn our planet into another lifeless body, like Mars (not so long ago, Mars was also green and blue).

    Mankind has an inherent sense of self-preservation. True evil must seek to over-rule this somehow. First evil needs to take control of Man's destiny, and this is what zionism is for. This is what the full surveillance programs revealed by Snowden are for.

    Yonatan said...
    Dear Saker

    Here is a very useful summary of the situation. It refers to Russian radar systems, and reminds us about the false flag missile launch in the Mediterranean detected by Russia that could have been a pretext for military intervention in Syria.

    The important points from the article:

    And here's what he [Putin] has done today is quite definite statement (yandexed):

    i) Putin said that the cause of the plane crash was a "crime" [this word is inappropriate when it comes to technical failure]

    ii) He said that the guilty country on which territory the crash happened - that is Ukraine. ("The state, on the territory of which it happened, is responsible for this terrible tragedy").

    iii) Putin promised to present evidence of his statement. ("I have already given the appropriate instructions the Ministry of defense .. that they have rendered all the necessary assistance in the investigation of this crime. We will do everything that depends on us to have an objective picture of the incident was a treasure and our public, and the public of Ukraine, and all over the world").

    iv) The US has a system of control over space, similar to the Russian early warning system. American satellites and installed in Europe radars also fix everything that flies and goes and crawls. And representatives of the American intelligence has already stated that they recorded a missile launch ground-to-air "by the Malaysian Boeing. But it did not name the place running. Said that "could not determine" the edition of the Wall Street Journal. The second part is not true. Perhaps Americans don't want to open a public place missile launch. Why?

    v) In an hour after the fall of Boeing Vladimir Putin called Barack Obama and something spoke to him. After that, according to unofficial data, the U.S. and EU agreed to consider disaster Malaysian flight MH17 "accident". In any case, we already know that the US President on Friday will hold a meeting with the national security Council, which will provide him with all that is known about the disaster. While CNN reports that the fear of escalation of tensions in Ukraine States will try to be "extremely cautious conclusions".

    To me this seems to say Putin has evidence it was done by the Ukrainians and can provide evidence to back this up. Obama knows this.

    The Ukrainians have previously (in 2001) shot down a civilian aircraft. Ukraine kept up the "it's not us" story for 6 months, ans when supporting evidence came out stated it was "by accident" qualified by "It happens to everyone".

    [Jul 19, 2014] MH17: Ukraine claims 'compelling evidence' of Russian involvement - live updates by Chris Johnston

    Same talking points as in NYT and WashPost. That reminds me coverage of Georgian invasion into Ossetia in 2008 so closely that I think that same propaganda templates are used. No slightest desire to analyze facts, construct models that point where the aircraft was exactly shot and what Buk batteries were present in the vicinity of this area. Disgusting, simply disgusting. Luckily there is some resistance to brainwashing which is evident from the comment below.
    Jul 19, 2014 | theguardian.com

    Stopthisshitnow , 19 July 2014 10:10am

    I see Kiev have ignored the demand from Russia and the rebels for a ceasefire in the area so the rescue and international investigation can begin.
    Just goes to show how much respect Kiev have for the dead that they continue to bombard the civilian population and hold up the rescue efforts while making wild accusations against the Russian speaking population of SE Ukraine.
    Kiev need to cooperate with Russia and the rebels controlling the area so the rescue can be done asap.

    dinfr31, 19 July 2014 10:24am

    Does the black box emit a signal enabling it to be found after disasters such as this? If this is the case can that signal be tracked to see if it (the black box) is in fact been moved to another location?

    RandolphHearst dinfr31, 19 July 2014 11:01am

    Yes it does. It can also be turned off / disabled.

    RuStand, 19 July 2014 10:34am

    An Chris Johnston should be happy. His article on the 38 bodeis taken by the rebels to morgue instead of letting them to rot in the filed ignited a sizable outburst from all osrt of morons.

    Steben68 , 19 July 2014 10:36am
    Ron Paul, a former Texas Congressman, points out that the missiles potential source of manufacture is immaterial and argues that although ISIS has a lot of American weapons this does not mean that the US government and Obama wanted them to fall into ISIS's hands. He goes on to add that speculation of Kremlin involvement in the form of pro Russian militia seems propagandised.

    What is evident is that those involved in the conflict in eastern Ukraine cannot be considered impartial and objective sources of information. The Ukrainian security forces released the unverified tape of a conversation between pro Russian rebels purporting to admit responsibility for the downing of the Malaysian airliner – however, they can hardly be considered to be unbiased and objective. What is most worrying is the "free press" in the west has taken this on board as factual and based all their suppositions as to who was responsible on this source as if it was undisputed evidence. The US, who has backed Poroshenko's military campaign in Donetsk, have also added "unverified" accusations suggesting that they have seen BUK missile launchers being spirited over the border back into Russia, suggesting that the Russian military were directly involved in aiding the rebels to launch these SAM missiles and therefore concluding that both the rebels and Russians are complicit.

    On the other side, Russia has been quick off the mark to accuse the Ukrainians of downing the plane implying that it was a false flag operation and have criticised the US for backing Poroshenko's brutal assault of the rebel held east, which has made full use of air power and has led to high levels of civilian casualties, which are largely ignored by the western media. Obama and the US government are, according to Moscow, directly and indirectly responsible for what has happened in Eastern Ukraine and the tragedy relating to flight MH17.

    Accusations and counter accusations fly thick and fast and it would be disingenuous to suggest that propaganda is not an element in these from all sides involved in the conflict. Which brings me to the point that a responsible approach towards finding out what actually happened with this tragic event can only be achieved by an independent investigation that examines all the evidence and arrives at an objective conclusion. Until this happens, propaganda sourced journalism, from whichever side in the conflict, should be taken for what it is, namely, propaganda and speculation founded on prejudice and innuendo.

    MarioCarbone Steben68, 19 July 2014 10:57am

    Nothing can be or will be achieved.

    This is on frontline and there isn't any security predispositions to do this.

    Because you have sides in the war here, you can't find anybody that would be trusted by all sides.

    And finally what could land examination prove?
    Obviouslly here is not question what did it but who did it and you can't come to answer with plane observation.

    Otherwise it is so, that on the plane was killed many people but on the land there were killed many more. So actually separatist/ukraine/russian side is not so much in shock then is the rest of the world.
    It is like wake up call.

    1. This ethnic Russians shouldn't be pusshed so hardlly
    2. This plane shouldn't fly there.

    ECXi97, 19 July 2014 10:38am

    Why people say so-and-so (whichever side) is destroying evidence/covering this up/etc, what do you mean? This crime is going to be solved because there is definitely data about where the missile was fired from/trajectory because this is a major conflict area that will have definitely been monitored by both the American and Russian military. In fact I don't believe for one minute that Putin and Obama do not already know. So what can be covered up?

    fauxtronic ECXi97, 19 July 2014 10:43am

    I'm surprised you need this clarifying, but here goes: Evidence is required to convict people who commit crimes such as this in an international court. By removing and destroying evidence, those who are implicated in this atrocity are reducing their chances of being convicted.

    ECXi97 fauxtronic, 19 July 2014 10:46am

    I think you misunderstood what I was saying. It's likely both sides already know who was responsible so there is no incentive/way of covering anything up.

    abird2 , 19 July 2014 10:43am
    In all this is a clear US strategy. The Middle East must be one of the regions where large regional war will begin. The Middle East is one of the front three large global war fronts.

    Second Front - European. In Ukraine, the war has unleashed. It already include Poland, the Baltic States (project "Rzeczpospolita -2 against Russia"), will not stand aside and Russia.

    Third Front - Pacific (Pacific frontier: the awakening of the spirit of the samurai in Japan, the Pacific front taking shape). In the Asia-Pacific region to actively knock together an anti-Chinese front, awaken Japanese samurai spirit. China loses remain cautious and more frightening neighbors.

    Fire in Eurasia should solve all the major problems of USA . First, the old European aristocracy and power centers (Rome, the German-Romanesque aristocracy, Germany, France) will be forced to join the future "Atlantic empire." Great War will allow the West to get out of the systemic crisis with minimal losses, to solve the problem of huge debt load and economy (the supply of weapons, equipment, ammunition, and after the war restoration of damaged infrastructure).

    ID9065683 , 19 July 2014 10:48am
    Why is the Guardian (and all mainstream media) rushing to conclude that the Rebels did this?

    Seems like propaganda.

    I have no idea what really happened, but I know that unrest in Ukraine is very beneficial to the US. Anything that prevents Russian gas being sold in Europe is support for the dollar. The main pipelines run through Ukraine until Southstream is built.

    They need to sell their shale/LNG to the rest of the world to prevent the US trade deficit balooning and causing international dumping of UST's and possible dollar collapse.

    Condi Rice explains the US intention very clearly (addressing Angela Merkel in this video):

    "You want to change the structure of energy dependence. You want to depend more on the North American energy platform, the tremendous bounty of oil and gas we are finding … You want pipelines that don't go through the Ukraine and Russia. For years we have tried to get the Europeans to be interested in different pipeline routes. Its time to do that".

    http://youtu.be/OU1t3t4Bq-Q?t=1m10s

    ID9065683 FOARP, 19 July 2014 11:00am

    Everything in my post is factual. These facts taken together suggest that the USA has much to gain from unrest in the Ukraine. Strange that the German media is so much more circumspect than the angloidsphere.

    Jennifer O'Toole RandolphHearst, 19 July 2014 11:28am

    Admitted it ony by Kiev sources so you cant trust that one. the Kiev authorities are covering up and its something really big, meanwhile the Kiev authorities continue to rain down bombs on their own people the civilians in the Ukraine including those Russian speaking Ukrainians, this is commonly known as murder but the West seem to be fast asleep on this one, why is it because it doesn't fit their mindset?

    hfakos FOARP, 19 July 2014 11:30am

    List your evidence. You don't have any implicating either side with certainty. Wait for the investigation.

    theonionmurders JohntheLith, 19 July 2014 11:35am

    It would be 'simplistic' to think that the Kiev regime wouldn't try to cause an international incident so as to hasten sanctions toward Russia.

    Kal El, 19 July 2014 10:51am

    So, from reading the article, Kiev classes the "destruction of evidence" as taking away bodies before they rot in the summer sun to a morgue.

    Far from "destroying evidence" by taking bodies to a morgue they are actually "preserving" evidence.

    Yet another example of how whatever Kiev says is completely the other way around.

    Oskar Jaeger Kal El, 19 July 2014 11:44am

    The perpetrators are interfering with a crime scene, while not allowing access to international observers.

    RuStand Oskar Jaeger, 19 July 2014 1:38pm

    OSCE:
    "On the one hand, the bodies don't appear to have been tampered with. They're lying, it seems, exactly where they fell," Mr. Borciurkiw said during an impromptu press conference in a Donetsk hotel lobby."

    "On the other hand, there's no one really on hand to move them, to identify them, to put them in cold storage," he said. "So because of that, we observed early stages of decomposition already"

    So OSCE understands that there' s the need to put the bodies in cold storage. But you keep parroting Kiev's propaganda - they literally write in their outlets that rebels 'have stolen the bodies' ..

    France Fradet, 19 July 2014 10:55am

    This video from the Bloomberg website is interesting: a Jane's IHS weapons expert saying it was 99% likely mistakenly shot down. The lives of the dead passengers are not an iota more important than the lives of the dead on the ground or in Gaza, or of civilians anywhere else. A dutch life is not more important than an Arab one. People baying for Putin's blood should be baying for Netanyahu's too, and Obama's.

    And I am amazed that no-one is thinking the BRICS are shaking off the petrodollar, and Imperialists like H Clinton and Obama couldn't have had a better excuse to attempt to make Russia a pariah state.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/video/downing-of-mh17-almost-certainly-an-accident-hunt-fiJvp4hkQcy1XOsrF4pyRg.html?cmpid=yhoo

    SimpleOldSailor, 19 July 2014 10:57am

    It is amazing how the USA can be so brazen as to stand up and point the finger so readily at Russia. How many innocents have died as a result of it's use of missiles from drones in Pakistan and Afghanistan? How many innocent Palestinians have to die as a result of it's continuing support for and arming of Israel. These are current and ongoing slaughters and the stars and

    H17, we should not be afraid of saying so but we should not allow Obama to divert our attention away from the mad bad policies that the USA and the western rightwing governments continue to pursue.

    Ahhbisto SimpleOldSailor, 19 July 2014 11:37am

    If you listened carefully all Obama said was that US intelligence had evidence of a rocket launch...and that is all he said. He was entirely non-judgemental, calm and rational. He called for a thoroughand professional air-crash investigation to establish the facts.You however just can't wait to spout off your 238th piece of anti-American rhetoric.

    Solidarnosc, 19 July 2014 10:59am

    The scramble among western leaders to make political capital out of this tragedy may ultimately backfire quite badly.

    neillwa, 19 July 2014 10:59am

    The Ukrainian government has accused pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine of trying to destroy evidence at the site where the Malaysia Airlines crashed ....

    Malaysian transport minister Liow Tiong Lai says he believes Russia is trying to ensure a safe route to the crash site.

    Isn't it funny how Ukraine and the West are just finger pointing acting like children in the school playground, while Russia and China are trying to get to on and help with the investigation without making accusations.


    regfromdagenham, 19 July 2014 11:00am

    "Obama says destruction of MH17 is a 'wake-up call' for Europe"

    The lessons Europe needs to learn:

    1) U.S. intervention (foreign policy) normally ends in civil war for the country involved, so don't get drawn in.

    2) When a country has a democracy, let the results stand and wait for the next election. The Ukraine would have had a democratic election one year after the Western backed Maiden coup.

    3) Don't fly over war zones.

    jiffery regfromdagenham, 19 July 2014 11:06am

    You might consider that the USA, for all its many foreign policy faults, did not bring down this airliner.

    ElvisInWales jiffery, 19 July 2014 11:09am

    Doesn't the same apply to Russia?

    Blame games are just that, why not wait until we get some actual facts.

    Would you convict someone on nothing more than hearsay?


    IranCorrespondent, 19 July 2014 11:03am

    US invests in a multi Billion Dollar hi-tech ability to spread lies and cover up the crimes of their government all over the planet, but the whole world still knows they just murdered ANOTHER plane load of people

    sasha19 IranCorrespondent , 19 July 2014 11:07am

    A link to such a statement?

    regfromdagenham IranCorrespondent, 19 July 2014 11:07am

    Considering the resources at their disposal the lies are are pretty abysmal.

    the U.S. in Syria "We are drawing a line over the use of chemical weapons"

    a few moments later:

    The Assad regime has used chemical weapons and we have put the proof on YouTube.

    What a coincidence!

    Kal El, 19 July 2014 11:04am

    LOL, the Ukrainian's aren't wanting much are they.

    Separatists must put down their weapons, hand over control of the Ukr/Rus border (and allow international access to the site).

    In that case then, the plane is certainly NOT going to be recovered and an investigation done because the Anti-Kiev forces won't agree to points 1 and 2.

    Commentator6, 19 July 2014 11:05am

    "Warwick's arrival at the scene came in the first few hours before there was any security presence, and he believes he saw strong evidence that looting was already well underway."

    "I noticed that I hadn't come across a single wallet with money, or a mobile phone or a camera. They've all mysteriously gone missing."

    http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-crash-site-freelance-journalist-filip-warwick-reveals-grim-first-views-20140719-zurxu.html

    theonionmurders bcnteacher, 19 July 2014 12:25pm

    'Believes' is the key word here.

    It usually means a journalist has no credible evidence at all for an assertion beyond what they believe to be true.

    It also provides a neat 'get-out clause' if they are subsequently proven to be wrong.


    "I noticed that I hadn't come across a single wallet with money, or a mobile phone or a camera. They've all mysteriously gone missing."

    Also, this makes no sense. Why should he 'come across money or wallets' when they are either likely to be preserved if they remain in pockets or hand luggage? Notice he doesn't say that he witnesses these thefts happen anywhere, he merely infers it.

    Any that aren't secured this way are usually destroyed or lost on impact. This also begs the question of why you would have your money or wallet unsecured during the flight anyway.

    Also, if he comments on how bodies have been disfigured beyond recognition, why does he expect passports, cameras and wallets to be fully intact and visible for all to see?

    Paradoxically, he then bemoans the fact that no effort is being made to preserve the crash site, only to later complain that the bodies have been left to decompose in the heat.

    This is highly manipulated, shoddy journalism constructed to make a particular ideological point and you two are naive enough to believe it.

    Doolie, 19 July 2014 11:06am

    The west has a long long history of arming political factions that suits the west's sick agenda; Syria, Israel, Al Quaeda, Iran the list is very long.

    The west has provided weapons to kill thousands of civilians, innocent civilians, civilians who were as innocent as were those passengers on the MH flight.

    But the death of western civilians on MH flight prompts people to a greater outrage than the death of Palestinians and their children, killed by smart US missile weapons this week.

    Christine63 Doolie, 19 July 2014 11:16am

    No-one here is celebrating war nor death of innocents. The only people that do that are the hard-liners who are directly involved, who seem to get a kick out of murdering innocent civilian parties.

    The issue here is that a band of separatist rebels, aided by Russia in apparently shooting down a civilian jet with almost 300 people and children on board, and are now refusing to co-operate in allowing the countries involved, to access the site and do what needs to be respectfully done.

    Doolie Christine63, 19 July 2014 1:00pm

    If the USA had not promoted the initial unrest in the Ukraine and installed a puppet Nazi as head of the regime; there would not be any fighting there at all. Russia didn't start this mess, the West did.

    This IS a now a war zone, it was idiotic of European authorities to allow flights over a war zone airspace. A military plane was shot down only days ago. Does that sound like safe place to take passenger flights through to you ?

    SvQMedia, 19 July 2014 11:07am

    I wonder what the Baroness Ashton thinks about all this...

    unaszplodrmann SvQMedia, 19 July 2014 11:14am

    I'm sure her conscience is very... resilient.

    zvanrost, 19 July 2014 11:10am

    "An air traffic controller, present in the Control Tower (Kiev) that controlled the flight of the Malaysia Airlines flight that crashed on Thurday with 295 people on board points to Ukraine and not the separatists as being responsible for the downing of the plane.
    The controller, Carlos, who appears to be Spanish but based in Borispol, has tweeted the following:

    "Everything has been recorded on radar. For those that don't believe it, it was taken down by Kiev; we know that here (in traffic control) and the military air traffic control know it too (7.14)
    As soon as the Malaysia Airlines B777 disappeared the Kiev military authority informed us of the shooting down. How did they know? (6.00 pm)

    If the Kiev authorities want to admit the truth 2 fighter jets were flying very close a few minutes before the incident but did not shoot down the airliner (5.54)

    The B777 was escorted by 2 Ukrainian fighter jets minutes before disappearing from radar. (5.48)

    The Ministry of the Interior did know that there were fighter aircraft in the area, but the Ministry of Defense didn't. 7.15 pm)

    Some days ago, on here, I said that the Kiev military wanted an excuse to get rid of the current president. This could be it, and on Timoshenko's orders 7.36

    The military confirnm that it was Ukraine, but it is not known where the order came from. 7.31"

    Christine63 zvanrost, 19 July 2014 11:23am

    If the separatists didn't do it and the B777 was being 'escorted' by Ukraine jets, then the black box recorders would prove this as the crew would had to have known.

    So why were the black box recorders removed by the rebels and are apparently nowhere to be found? Don't they want their innocence to be proven?

    Trudi Goater, 19 July 2014 11:10am

    The Malaysian minister has said that Russia is helping them and he has spoken to Putin. I'd rather believe him than that twit from the Kiev Post

    InternetDemocrats, 19 July 2014 11:10am

    Why are we calling these morons "rebels"?

    You know, when they're obviously sponsored by a foreign power.

    What's "rebellious" about that?

    ElvisInWales InternetDemocrats, 19 July 2014 11:17am

    Sorry but the Syrian section is in the Middle east where your comment is better placed, as good ol Blighty along with Uncy Sam and Aunt Hollande are sponsoring the war in Syria.

    Nexusone InternetDemocrats, 19 July 2014 11:21am

    Bit like the Neo Nazis in Kiev that are waging a genocidal war against ethnic Russians. Neo Nazi thugs that were put in place by the perfidious Washington thugs. No nation should trust the US Administration.

    Ingelrild InternetDemocrats, 19 July 2014 11:27am

    Is this like the neo-nazi, anti-semite pre-election 'rebels' in Kiev, sponsored by foreign powers?

    Jesus.

    Kal El, 19 July 2014 11:11am

    So, how many billions of dollars have been spent putting satellites into space, that then can't even spot MH 370 flying around for hours, or see when a (supposed) missile hit MH 17.

    What an absolute waste of money.

    Seems for all their supposed on-board technology a "spy" satellite is ONLY any use if the object is stationary and saying "cheese".

    [Jul 18, 2014] No Way To Slow Down – America's Foreign-Policy Dilemma

    From comments: "But what about the US? Do they really think that relations with Russia will return to normal at some point in the near future after all this? Do they now think (or don't care any more) that they simply can do without Russia's role in international fora and problem solving in various conflicts around the world?"
    marknesop.wordpress.com

    Fern, July 18, 2014 at 9:57 am

    I've just been listening to Obama's speech on MH17 and am now pretty much convinced this is a black op. Obama himself sort of gives the game away when he said something along the lines of "this is a wake-up call for Europe'. So, what have we here? The US has been trying for months to get Europe on board in draconian sanctions against Russia but while European governments are willing to talk the talk (or, rather, echo American bellicosity), they're not willing to walk the walk. This culminated a few days ago when nine European leaders came out against further sanctions leaving the US alone in its decision to impose sectoral sanctions.

    Now, what do we have? A plane from an Asian airline whose passenger list is largely European, going down in East Ukraine. While virtually no facts whatsoever are yet known, the whole western MSM goes into propaganda overdrive – Putin dunit – while Obama at his most patrician, speaks of the need to wait for evidence but apart from those six words, spends the rest of the speech making it clear that Putin dunit.

    Meanwhile, at the UN, Churkin single-handedly had to fend off a pack, there's no other word for it, of western representatives shouting that Putin dunit.

    Can anyone spot a pattern here? Is there any doubt that Russia is being fitted up with the purpose of removing European objections to draconian sanctions?

    If this is a black op, the flight was not randomly chosen. It's no accident that it happened to have 100+ researchers into HIV on board en route to a conference in Australia. Not just a waste of life but a waste of lives devoted to helping others. The cynicism is breathtaking. And can anyone explain how so many undamaged passports were collected together so quickly for display to the media?

    Warren , July 18, 2014 at 10:38 am

    Interesting, if this was genuine Black Op designed to snitch up Russia and pressurize the European into agreeing to tougher sector based sanctions, the why choose a Malaysian non-European airliner? Yes the MH17 had a predominantly European passenger list, however wouldn't a European airliner like KLM, Lufthansa, Air France, etc been a better target and better for propaganda purposes?

    The Netherlands has one of the EU countries has consistently been reluctant to increase sanctions against Russia, and even opposed Poland's hysterical demand that NATO forces should be deployed to Poland.

    The Western media is in full propaganda blast mode, Western politicians especially from the Anglosphere are all choreographed to blame Russia and force Europe to confront Russia on the Anglosphere's behalf.

    Fern , July 18, 2014 at 10:49 am

    Warren, take down a western airliner and you generate too much interest and scrutiny from that country which might prove unhelpful. Lots of tiresome relatives who won't let the matter drop bringing political pressure on the government of that country. A non-western airline but on a flight with a lot of Europeans on board is a better bet, particularly when that airline has had one hinky incident in the recent past.

    Warren , July 18, 2014 at 11:25 am

    Fern, valid points. Very cynical to use Malaysian Airlines for this Black Ops.

    Jen , July 18, 2014 at 2:29 pm

    I'm sure the US has a bone to pick with Malaysia for having hosted war tribunals in Kuala Lumpur, the first of which (held in 2011) found George W Bush and Tony Blair guilty of war crimes in Iraq; the second (2012) finding Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Alberto Gonazales, John Yoo, David Addington and William Haynes II of conspiracy to commit war crimes after hearing testimony from people tortured in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo prisons; and the third (2013) finding the State of Israel guilty of genocide against Palestinians, and one Israeli army general guilty of war crimes for his involvement in the Sabra and Shatila massacre in 1982 when the Israeli army encircled a refugee camp and allowed Lebanese Christian Phalangists to enter and butcher people.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuala_Lumpur_War_Crimes_Commission

    Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 may not have been randomly chosen either: 20 passengers on board that craft were Chinese and Malaysian employees of a Texan-based semiconductor manufacturer Freescale Semiconductor. Four of those employees were four of five holders of a patent for a micro-controller for military radar systems; the other patent holder was their employer. There is now a conspiracy theory that these employees' deaths were intended so that the company's owner/s could profit alone from the patent.
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/465557/Malaysian-plane-20-on-board-worked-for-ELECTRONIC-WARFARE-and-radar-defence-company
    http://beforeitsnews.com/conspiracy-theories/2014/04/rothschild-behind-disappearance-of-flight-mh370-2461420.html

    karl1haushofer , July 18, 2014 at 10:06 am

    Was in a four day trip and now catching up the recent events.

    1. Seps started to gain momentum and Uki forces suffered great losses and had to withdrew.
    2. Civilian plane with 300 people was shot down in the Donetsk airspace.
    3. Seps are blaming the junta and the junta is blaming the seps and Russia.
    4. The Western world is, naturally, blaming seps and Russia.
    5. Junta gained from the horrible tragedy.
    6. Seps and Russia were the big propaganda losers from this tragedy.
    7. Either the seps unintentionally or the junta intentionally shot down the plane.

    Southerncross , July 18, 2014 at 1:29 pm

    Even if, as is likely, the Ukrainian military shot down the plane, it's still more likely they did it 'unintentionally'. I mean that in the sense that they thought it was an enemy aircraft.

    When you put dubiously-trained crews in a combat zone after feeding them ridiculous propaganda about a Russian invasion, and an unidentified aircraft unexpectedly appears in their sector, this is the sort of thing that's likely to happen.

    marknesop , July 18, 2014 at 5:07 pm

    I still wouldn't blow off the theory that they thought it was Putin, however unlikely; the colour scheme of the two planes is uncannily alike, and if there were Ukrainian aircraft in the vicinity at the time (alleged but not proven) they may have been on-scene only to make a visual ID before firing. I'd give a lot to hear the communications from those planes if they actually were there. There are a lot of airliners still transiting that area, and visual ID would be the only way to be sure of the right target. I don't think it was in any way unintentional, and I think the planners are just adapting to the circumstances as best they can. Whatever the intent was, it is fast turning into a full-court press seeking outrage and calls for war.

    Warren, July 18, 2014 at 10:23 am

    Published on 17 Jul 2014
    I have to say, They were gonna fool a whole lot of people with this one! Thankfully, they have been caught!
    The Ukraine Government supported a youtube clip that they say proves Russia had involvement and that Rebels shot down Malaysia Flight MH17. However, Due to their sloppy work, They have been caught! They have since tried to delete the file, but not before it was downloaded over 800 times! More info at links!

    http://www.undergroundworldnews.com

    http://rghost.net/private/56950510/78

    http://gmorder.livejournal.com/111373

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07

    Al , July 18, 2014 at 12:14 pm

    The underground new link works for me.

    I searched gmorder livejournal and got his page

    clicking on july the 18th I got the 17th:
    http://gmorder.livejournal.com/2014/07/18/

    This link works, with 385 comments:
    http://gmorder.livejournal.com/1113736.html

    Southerncross , July 18, 2014 at 1:34 pm

    If this is true, then the Ukes will be working frantically to dispose of any evidence of their culpability.

    Including the missile crew, who may already have disappeared up a chimney somewhere.

    Fern , July 18, 2014 at 6:37 pm

    Exactly what I've been thinking, Southerncross. Dead men tell no tales – if Kiev was responsible, those with knowledge of what happened are probably not long for this world.

    yalensis , July 18, 2014 at 4:10 pm

    If the Ukes really did have the fake tape created on July 16, then this implies they were planning to attack a commercial airliner. They had no way of knowing their attack would succeed – sometimes things don't work out the way they are planned. They might not have even known which particular day the attack would occur.

    However, they might have just been holding the tape ready to go, just in case they succeeded – which they did.

    Then they would have hastily uploaded the already-prepared tape; but some moron forgot to change the timestamp on the creation date.

    patient observer , July 18, 2014 at 5:52 pm

    the two Uke jet fighters trailing the airliner could have been plan B if the missile failed.

    Al , July 18, 2014 at 11:54 am ,

    https://twitter.com/search?q=spainbuca

    From various tweets of others (still ongoing as he is being referenced), Spainbuca and other foreign ATC staff were taken off duty, ATC tapes seized…

    marknesop , July 18, 2014 at 12:00 pm

    If you get the sense that this has all happened before, or was meant to happen before, you're probably right. Remember Operation Northwoods, back in the sixties?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

    Option 8: 8. "It is possible to create an incident which will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner en route from the United States to Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama, or Venezuela. The destination would be chosen only to cause the flight plan route to cross Cuba. The passengers could be a group of college students off on a holiday or any grouping of persons with a common interest to support chartering a non-scheduled flight.

    a.An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At a designated time the duplicate would be substituted for the actual civil aircraft and would be loaded with the selected passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered aircraft would be converted to a drone.

    b. Take off times of the drone aircraft and the actual aircraft will be scheduled to allow a rendezvous south of Florida. From the rendezvous point the passenger-carrying aircraft will descend to minimum altitude and go directly into an auxiliary field at Eglin AFB where arrangements will have been made to evacuate the passengers and return the aircraft to its original status. The drone aircraft meanwhile will continue to fly the filed flight plan. When over Cuba the drone will begin transmitting on the international distress frequency a "MAY DAY" message stating he is under attack by Cuban MIG aircraft. The transmission will be interrupted by destruction of the aircraft which will be triggered by radio signal. This will allow ICAO radio stations in the Western Hemisphere to tell the United States what has happened to the aircraft instead of the United States trying to "sell" the incident."

    When your foreign policy guardians make up convoluted and shamelessly self-interested plans like this, it should later be unsurprising that people suspect your motives whenever there is an unexplained incident.

    Jen , July 18, 2014 at 3:20 pm

    Sounds like one conspiracy theory I've heard about United Airlines Flight 93 on 11 September 2001 in which the passengers were all transferred to another flight that took them to Ohio.

    Al , July 18, 2014 at 12:29 pm

    Daily Telegraph
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/10977399/Russia-brushes-off-worldwide-criticism-over-Malaysia-Airlines-tragedy.html

    "…RT, the Kremlin-funded English-language propaganda channel, even suggested that the missile may have actually been targeted at Mr Putin's personal Il-96 jet.

    Such claims were "the straw that broke the camel's back for me" for RT's London correspondent, Sara Firth, who resigned from the channel in protest at its coverage.

    "I resigned from RT today," she tweeted. "I have huge respect for many in the team, but I'm for the truth." "
    --

    Uh-huh? She knows better already?

    marknesop , July 18, 2014 at 4:57 pm

    Snap. Just like Liz Wahl's dramatic on-air resignation from RT, which was known at least 20 minutes in advance of the "spontaneous event" and probably longer, and featured the steering of rainbow-suspenders, me-and-my-Jewish-boyfriend gayboy Russophobe Jamie Kirchik. Ms. Wahl's name has been forgotten now to all but neocon activists, and her big flounce-out was over gay rights, which are not even on the mainstream radar (just as I said at the time would be the case) since they failed to achieve their goal, which was to derail the Sochi Olympics.

    All part of the wool-pulling-over-the-eyes plan in this next act of deception by the west as it continues to batter at the ramparts of Russian resolve and try to drag it into a reaction which can be reacted to with righteous rage.

    Al , July 18, 2014 at 1:16 pm

    You can't get much more convenient than this!

    Malaysia Airlines MH17 live blog: Missile expert arrested near border, Ukraine government says
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-19/malaysia-airlines-mh17-aftermath-of-tragedy-unfolds-live-blog/5608836

    "…Authorities in Kiev say two men have been captured near the border on the Ukrainian side, according to reports, one of whom had paperwork indicating he was a missile specialist…"

    marknesop , July 18, 2014 at 5:02 pm

    Now you need a documents-carrying missile specialist to fire a Buk? A missile system designed to be fired by conscripts? The surest sign of a false-flag scam is the amount of convenient evidence which surfaces immediately afterward. Look how long "Kenny-Boy" Lay got away with his fiscal shenanigans at Enron before the whole thing collapsed, despite the mountain of evidence that did not surface until the collapse although it was years in the making.

    Al , July 18, 2014 at 1:44 pm

    If it is verified that Ukranian Air Force fighters were near the airliner before hand then that looks like a possible scenario that Kiev had decided to set up. We've heard nothing from the Spanish ATC guy in Kiev since his twitter was shut down/blocked. Most of the major media channels have ignore it too and are still pushing the fake telephone intercepts with the wrong date stamps etc.

    I wonder how close the fighters got because if they got within visual range then there would be a chance that someone would have taken a photo – the same with the flight voice recorder which would then have been remarked upon.

    A single aircraft by itself, at altitude (flying significantly higher than the earlier An-26 artillery spotter plane that was shot down – i.e. it had to fly lower to see targets clearly enough) would not have attracted any suspicion considering that airliners were continuing to fly that route.

    Flying two fighter aircraft in the same vicinity would change that calculation and lend suspicion that it was a high value asset, maybe a specialist military aircraft such as some sort of SIGNIT aircraft, possibly from a NATO country. Maybe that was the intention. to deliberately draw a missile. Re the KAL007 shoot down in 1983, a USAF SIGNIT 'Cobra Ball' had been flying in near by airspace only an hour before KAL007 flew off course and entered soviet airspace of the Kamchatka peninsula.

    I don't quite see how a uke fighter shooting it down works though as forensic and expert evidence would show that it was an air-to-air missile that did it, not a much larger missile from a BUK. It would only make sense if the US would be able to push Europe in to action very fast before the full facts are uncovered. They certainly are pushing right now (Hilary, Samantha 'career genocide expert' Power, and Total Fruitcake McCain for starters).

    But as we know, facts are irrelevant the the war crowd who will jump on anything, however slim, and twist it in such a way that they will use it to punish whomever they wish. In the West they have done this over and over again to justify everything from invasions and bombing campaigns to sanctions. Now that is true evil.

    But what about the US? Do they really think that relations with Russia will return to normal at some point in the near future after all this? Do they now think (or don't care any more) that they simply can do without Russia's role in international fora and problem solving in various conflicts around the world?

    We can see that Hilary is setting herself up as a 'Hawk' for the upcoming US presidential election so that the Republican neocon crazies will not be able to accuse her of being as limp-wristed as Obama. Hilary is not in government so she does not have to really pay any consequences for what she says – the same is true of anyone in opposition.

    Frankly, it's impossible as an outsider to be accurate, but what we can expect is that any information that does not chime with a simple story pumped by the pro-American crowd will either continue to be totally ignored, brushed off or ridiculed. The consensual media will play ball. These people don't give a shit that 300 people died, only how they can use it.

    marknesop , July 18, 2014 at 5:09 pm

    I'm thinking now that the Uke aircraft – if present – were there to provide visual ID by voice link.

    Paul , July 18, 2014 at 1:54 pm

    I have an article about all this in the Ottawa Citizen. Enjoy!: http://ottawacitizen.com/news/world/how-to-stop-the-killing-in-ukraine

    karl1haushofer , July 18, 2014 at 2:06 pm

    Apparently Denis Pushilin just resigned and probably went to Russia.

    Warren , July 18, 2014 at 2:18 pm

    Why should he resign?

    karl1haushofer , July 18, 2014 at 2:40 pm

    Maybe he got cold feet after the airplane was downed? No matter who did it. The seps will be blamed nonetheless. Maybe Pushilin calculated that it is better to quit now than continue?

    Warren , July 18, 2014 at 4:43 pm

    Cold feet? It's too late now. Pushilin is in too deep, and he needs to follow this through. it's either Novorossiya or bust for him and his comrades.

    yalensis , July 18, 2014 at 4:21 pm

    I don't believe Pushilin's resignation has much to do with the airline disaster.

    This was actually in the works for some time. In fact, I have a comment somewhere above (I don't remember where) on the political wheelings and dealings within the Novorossiya political parties. This was a few days before the airline crash, and that event has obviously trumped everything else, at least for a while..

    Basically, in the Novorossiya political cauldron, there are winners and losers.

    Winner include Strelkov; losers include Borodai, Pushilin and (by implication) their Kremlin sponsor Kurgin'an.

    karl1haushofer , July 18, 2014 at 2:38 pm

    I have been reading at news and comment sections in Finland. Finland is one of the most russophobic countries in the world, but the current vile hatred towards Russia is something that I have never witnessed in my life.

    (Finnish media is also brutally censoring any pro-Russian comments right now. I tried to send three different comments in civilized language to Helsingin Sanomat comment section. All of them were pre-censored. I didn't see many other pro-Russian comments there either so apparently they are censoring all pro-Russian comments there.)

    Shooting down that civilian plane was a struck of evil genius by the West.

    1. It greatly further discredited the resistance forces of Novorussia.
    2. It greatly further demonized Russia. Mainstream media is having a field day and comment sections are filling from comments which many basically demand to "destroy" Russia.
    3. It gives NATO a causus belli to directly get involved in Ukraine.
    4. It will be a lot more pressure to the EU to isolate Russia.
    5. It installed a great deal of hatred towards Russia among the general western population.

    If you look at this terror act purely strategically it was just genius. Evil but genius.

    After seeing all this hatred and rage towards Russia I am confident that we will see a war in my lifetime. My generations (I'm in my 30s) of Finns and younger absolutely hate Russia. This is not an understatement. In comparison most of young Finns were cheering when the USA invaded Iraq. We have chosen our side. We will always back the enemy of Russia whether it was Nazi Germany or the United States. This is a feature that can never be changed. Finland is and will always be hostile towards Russia and do it's part to weaken/destroy Russia when given a chance.

    Russia should prepare for a war. Both military and economic war. The West is out to get Russia. The shooting of the airplane is an escalation of the warfare against Russia. They want to split Russia into several parts. They want to remove Russia's nuclear weapons. They want to destroy any industry that is in Russia (especially the arms industry). They want to fully control Russian oil and gas (and transfer the profits out of Russia). They want to make Russian people poor and miserable. They want to humiliate Russia. They hate Russia and they want to see bad things happen to it. They eventually want to make Russian people extinct and have an empty land full of natural riches and resources. This is what they want.

    What should Russia do?

    Hopefully the Russian leadership finally realizes what kind of people it is facing. These are murderous, totally amoral and extremely powerful and intelligent enemies. They are not Russian partners. They are enemies. So stop calling them partners and call them what they are, enemies.

    Also,

    Russia cannot retreat anymore since an open warfare has been declared against it.

    karl1haushofer , July 18, 2014 at 3:00 pm

    Right now I am not sure that Russia is strong enough to face the coming assault (media, economic, terrorist and military assault).

    The 20th century killed too many Russians. Especially the best Russians. The Bolsheviks persecuted and murdered hundreds of thousands of Russian nobility, industrialists, farmers etc. People who were the best and brightest of the nation.

    Then came the civil war and a great famine of between 1918 and 1925. Again, millions of people killed.

    Then came the Great Patriotic War. It was a great victory for the nation, but again almost 30 million people killed. Most of them young. The bravest young men were sacrificed in the front against the Nazis. This had to be done to save the country, but the cost was astronomical.

    Then came the breakup of the country in 1991 after decades of failed economic policies and pure idiocy (like supporting Eastern European nations that hate Russia with free oil and gas). After the breakup of the country again millions of best and brightest of the Russians emigrated, left the country. Another huge loss of human capital. Russia was split in many parts. Russia was separated from the Baltics, Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan. Russia lost whole industries and valuable ports to these new independent countries.

    Russia HAD the potential to become the most powerful country on the earth that also can provide it's population with a good standard of living. That potential existed in 1914 before Russia entered the First World War.

    After that it has been a big catastrophe after another for the country. These catastrophes ate the resources and the potential of the country and made it's gene pool worse. Russia did achieve many great things (winning the war against the Nazis, putting the first man to space, developing a nuclear weapon) but in a long run the costs were too high for the country. Those catastrophes had weakened Russia too much for it to be able to compete against the United States and Western Europe who never faced such catastrophes and enriched themselves with imperialist colonial policies and slave labor. Eventually the Soviet Union collapsed because it didn't have the capacity to compete.

    The West sees Russia as a land full of resources that is occupied by people who must be removed. Russia has only one thing going for itself, the nukes. The nuclear weapon is the best thing that has happened to Russia since 1945. It has enabled Russia to last to this day.

    yalensis , July 18, 2014 at 4:26 pm

    Hi, Karl, I am just curious. (This is a friendly comment, please don't take it the wrong way.)
    I am just curious, on a psychological level, why you are different in your views from the majority of Finns of your generation?

    What were your formative experiences?

    You don't need to reply, but I would be happy if you do.

    patient observer , July 18, 2014 at 5:45 pm

    While agreeing with your assessment of the intentions of the Western sociopaths class toward the Slavic Orthodox civilization, your obsession regarding a claimed genetic deficiency in the Slavic people is tiresome, offensive and without basis.

    The Finnish hatred certainly includes a purported Russian genetic inferiority so is it not likely that you have simply adopted such as a core belief? Your monologue about the best and brightest either being murdered or fleeing Russia leaving nothing but human scum behind would be well accepted among Nazis and racists in any country.

    You are proposing some sort of reverse natural selection where the mentally weak and physically deficient survive while the superior DNA dies or runs. Truly a unique theory. Yet, as pointed out earlier and unrefuted by you, genetically inferior Russian kids born in the late 90′s and early 00′s kick the butts of your oh-so-superior Western kids in math and science. Please offer an explanation.

    Yalensis had a similar question but I add to it regarding your belief that Russian are profoundly damaged humans yet you seem to have a genuine concern over their fate. Something does not add up.

    ThatJ , July 18, 2014 at 3:28 pm

    Ok, I decided to make a dedicated post to this Skillt moron. Mark said:

    ***
    Ummmm….is Mr. Skillt aware that eastern Ukrainians are white? And that shooting white people is an ineffective technique for ensuring the survival of the "white race"?
    ***

    Mikael Skillt is a moron and an enemy of nationalism. How, you might ask. He's fighting alongside Nazis, for a Nazi regime. No way he's an enemy of nationalism then! One would think that people like him are better informed regarding the eclipse of the European nation states and the Anglosphere. Unfortunately, Mr. Skillt has a primitive understanding of the realities. He thinks of Russia in terms of the Soviet Union, i.e. communist, and 'connect the dots' that this is the same communism that is destroying his native Sweden.

    First of all, Sweden is not a victim of communist Russian Stalinism, but of communist American Trotskyism. Many American Trotskyites became leading figures of the neocon 'right' decades ago. Two readings are in order to understand this very real difference:
    http://www.counter-currents.com/2013/03/stalins-fight-against-international-communism/
    http://www.counter-currents.com/2013/02/trotsky-stalin-and-the-cold-war/

    In March of this year, after the coup took place, the author of the above pieces wrote an article dealing with Ukraine:
    …[T]his praise of Ukrainian nationalism by Brzezinski is odd coming from someone who has spent decades, since his days as a young academic, condemning nationalism and asserting that international capitalism, founded upon a globalist elite that transcends territorial borders, is the next phase of historical evolution in a dialectical process. Brzezinski does not even believe in "independent nationhood." He believes that it is passé.[10] However it is the line followed by all the other mouthpieces of globalization, including the USA and the E.U., and all the pontificators at the United Nations, who are condemning Russia and upholding this "Ukrainian nationhood." None, of course, are champions of nationalism, which they regard as anathema. It is another means of undermining Russia as the primary state that remains in the way of the "brave new world," or the "new world order" as it has been called. Hence, "nationalism" is only used as a dialectical strategy as part of a globalist agenda.

    Brzezinski also alludes to what is the real bugbear of the globalists: the fear that Russia will lead a Eurasian bloc which, we might add, would also find allies across the world, from India, to Venezuela to Syria;[11] hence the simultaneous actions against the latter two states, fomented by the same forces that are backing the situation in the Ukraine. Brzezinski, as a principal spokesman for the globalists, talks of an "expansion of Europe." Brzezinski openly states that the globalists want the Ukraine to be part of the E.U. as the start of a process that will integrate Russia also. He states that this is the wave of the future, and that a Russia-led "Eurasian union" will fail. However, if the E.U. represented a truly independent third force, it would have been targeted as avidly by the globalists as Russia and the previous Soviet bloc. Unfortunately, the E.U. has not emerged as a third force, but as an appendage of U.S. foreign policy, and its position on the present Ukraine situation is yet another example of this.
    http://www.counter-currents.com/2014/03/geopolitics-and-oligarchy-in-the-ukraine-crisis/

    Does this "European Union", whose capitol Brussels is on the verge of becoming minority European, truly represent "Europe" that the Maidanites want so badly to be part of? Isn't an European Union without Europeans worthless? In a sense, isn't Ukraine more European than France, Belgium and England - demographically and geographically? Or is this Europeanness an abstrat idea, a social construct? The EU, the media and the Zionists want you to think so. Just like they tell us that America is historically a 'proposition nation' devoid of any ethnic or religious core (an idea advanced by Jews, which is, for most of the country's existence until 1965, patently false. Look no further than the first immigration law passed by the Framers soon after the Declaration of Independence and of the American demographics and immigration laws until 1965).

    Look at the demographics of the post-Soviet states in Europe.

    Now look at the demographics of the "free West".

    Draw your own conclusion. Did the Zionist Anglo-American bloc or the Russian-led bloc preserve the demographics better? Save for the historic gypsy population of some eastern European countries, the demographics are still continental European.

    Meanwhile, Mohammed (and its variations) is the most common name for babies born in London. The English are a dying people and are expected to become a minority in England before 2050. This figure, 2050, is very optimistic, 2040 is a more realistic date. The European French are <80% of the population and the babies born the last year are up to 35% minority. This is a ticking demographic bomb. Note that I said "European French", so here other European nationalities besides the native ethnic French are included as well.

    The Netherlands, England, West Germany (East is still amazingly European), Italy, Spain, Portugal, now Ireland (things are changing really fast in Ireland, for some reason the economically fragile country is being flooded by poorly skilled immigrants from Africa and the Middle East for the sake of displacement), Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Austria. These countries have been part of the 'free West' since the end of WWII. They all share self-hatred, a vicious media, an education system controlled by Trotskyites and they are all on the way to becoming minority-majority.

    What about the 'authoritarian' east? Bulgaria, Croatia, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Serbia, Hungary, Romania, Ukraine(!), Slovakia, Czech Republic, Moldova etc, are not suffering the genocidal policies of the 'free West' post-WWII because they were ruled by the Soviet Union (Russia) until 1991. They 'missed' the 1945-91 period of social engineering of Critical Theory, white privilege, self-hatred, pseudo-humanism and other anomalies - all the products of Trotskyism (Jewish activism) imported/exported from America.

    A reading of this review of Kevin MacDonald's The Culture of Critique will explain my opposition to the Zionist 'Anglo-American' bloc:
    http://www.heretical.com/miscellx/culturec.html

    This Mikael Skillt is not a nationalist. He's a thug attracted to violence. His native country is a huge mess.

    That the 'West' goes to great length in suppressing the opposition to racial replacement and expressions of racial solidarity, including with laws that can deprive you of your liberty for speaking heretical views, and that in Ukraine they do a 180 and instigate the Ukrainians to hate brotherly Slavs, undisguisable from ethnic Ukrainians, is a testimony to the evil nature of this 'Western' elite. Stoking hatred between Europeans, suppressing the hatred between Europeans and non-Europeans whilst displacing them and eventually doing away with their very existence.

    Warren , July 18, 2014 at 3:52 pm

    Heretical.com? I haven't been there for over 10 years.

    Kevin MacDonald is a true disciple of the late William Pierce.

    Southerncross,July 18, 2014 at 4:05 pm

    William Pierce's political program was for race war and the reduction of the American population to 50 million.

    Pierce's novel 'The Turner Diaries' explains in some detail how this is to be accomplished. The liberal use of atom bombs and machetes is involved.

    I do not think Kevin MacDonald is in favour of these things.

    Warren,July 18, 2014 at 4:40 pm

    Pierce wrote a fictional book "The Turner Diaries" under the pseudonym Andrew MacDonald. However Pierce never advocated violence, I use to listen to his broadcasts American Dissident Voices and read the transcripts on NatVan/NatAll.com from 2000 to 2002 when he died.

    Pierce, was a true intellectual, commenting on current affairs, providing analysis and exposing the Zionist power structure in the US. Every year he and his comrades in the National Alliance would publish report detailing who owns US media companies.

    Kevin MacDonald has the same facts based cerebral approach of William Pierce in documenting and exposing the Zionist power structure.

    ThatJ,July 18, 2014 at 5:11 pm

    MacDonald reminds me of Pierce in so far as the sincere discussion of taboo subjects is concerned. Mearsheimer and Walt discuss the power of the Zionists in directing American foreign policy. Internal policies pursued by the lobby are not touched upon. Mearsheimer and Walt are moderate critics of the lobby, and so is MacDonald. The former exposes the foreign policy, and the latter the internal policy.

    Pierce is more of a Bobby Fischer in his approach to Jews.

    ThatJ,July 18, 2014 at 4:49 pm

    Although it's a heretical.com link, the review was originally published in the American Renaissance magazine.

    Kevin MacDonald was a leftist student during the 60s counter-culture revolution. He later changed, and I don't think he has much in common with the late William Pierce. MacDonald still teaches at the university, but he and the university staff are constantly harassed by the SPLC. This harassment includes many failed attempts at getting him fired. Pierce, a physics professor, stopped teaching in the 60s:

    I have never read 'The Turner Diaries' that southerncross mentions below, even though I do know about its existence. I did read some scripts from Pierce's many radio broadcasts. He was clearly radical.

    Btw, recently the SPLC came up with a new schtick to attack 'the man': border vigilant. Guess who it's aimed at? Why, at anyone who thinks the US must follow

    Warren,July 18, 2014 at 3:53 pm

    Published on 17 Jul 2014
    Subscribe to VICE News here: http://bit.ly/Subscribe-to-VICE-News

    Today, a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet carrying 295 people was shot down - allegedly by pro-Russia separatists - in eastern Ukraine, dramatically changing the scope of Ukraine's months-long conflict.

    On Wednesday, VICE News correspondent Simon Ostrovsky spoke to US Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt, who said he has no doubt Russia is arming the separatists, effectively encouraging the escalation of the fighting.

    Follow @simonostrovsky on Twitter here: https://twitter.com/SimonOstrovsky

    Watch all of VICE News' coverage of the conflict in Ukraine here: http://bit.ly/1j0tCKk

    Check out the VICE News beta for more: http://vicenews.com

    Follow VICE News here:
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/vicenews
    Twitter: https://twitter.com/vicenews
    Tumblr: http://vicenews.tumblr.com/

    Warren,July 18, 2014 at 4:51 pm

    The Malaysia Airliner Downing Through The Eyes Of Russian State Television

    http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-media-mh17-airline-crash-coverage-malaysia/25462227.html

    Warren,July 18, 2014 at 4:52 pm

    Podcast: A Tragedy And A Turning Point

    It was the day the Russia-Ukraine crisis went global, claiming the lives of nearly 300 people from at least 12 nations spanning across five continents.

    Details are still emerging about the downing of a Malaysian Airlines passenger jetliner in eastern Ukraine on July 17, apparently by a surface-to-air missile.

    But the circumstantial evidence is mounting - and appears to point to separatist culpability.

    And what had been a localized conflict has suddenly, and dramatically, become a major threat to international security.

    Will the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 be a game changer in the months-long conflict between Russia and Ukraine? And if so, how?

    On the latest Power Vertical Podcast, I discuss this issue with Mark Galeotti, a professor at New York University, an expert on Russia's security services, and author of the blog "In Moscow's Shadows;" and Kirill Kobrin, editor of the Moscow-based history and sociology magazine "Neprikosnovenny zapas."

    Enjoy…

    http://www.rferl.org/content/podcast-a-tragedy-and-a-turning-point/25462387.html

    yalensis , July 18, 2014 at 5:10 pm

    This is interesting.
    Vice President of Malaysian Airlines, whose name, for some reason is called "Heib the Gorter" gave a press conference in Amsterdam, in which he stated the following:

    According to the flight plan, the plane was supposed to fly at 10.66 km. However, Ukrainian dispatchers requested the plane fly lower, at 10.05 km.

    Presumably this lower altitude would have made the plane more vulnerable to attack from the ground.

    [Jul 18, 2014] Ukraine's Security Service Has Confiscated Air Traffic Control Recordings With Malaysian Jet

    "Cui Bono?" is the classic question which those days are never asked by Western MSM, let alone Investigated . Junta gained from the horrible tragedy. Seps and Russia were the big propaganda losers from this tragedy.
    Zero Hedge
    Earlier, when we commented in the abnormality in the flight path of flight MH-17 we said that "perhaps before coming to "certain" conclusion about the involvement of this rebel or that, the key questions one should ask before casting blame, is why did the pilot divert from his usual flight plan, why did he fly above restricted airspace, and just what, if any instructions, did Kiev air control give the pilot in the minutes before the tragic explosion?"

    The simple answer would have come if Ukraine had merely released the Air Traffic Control recording from the tower and flight MH 17, something Malaysia did in the aftermath of the disappearance of flight MH 370, which at last check has still not been uncovered.

    It now appears that answer will not be forthcoming because as the BBC reports "Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency."

    What happens to the recordings next is completely unknown. What is known is that any hope of getting an undoctored explanation why the plane flew as it did, or what the pilots may have seen or said in the moments before the explosion, is forever gone.

    It also means that any hope of actually working with facts instead of emotional appeals, and getting to the bottom of the Malaysian airline tragedy, resides in what may be recorded by the black box, whose location right now is now exactly clear. From the Independent ....

    [Jul 18, 2014] The Final Moments Of Flight MH-17 The Russian Side Of The Story

    Zero Hedge

    Yesterday, we laid out extensively what the official Ukrainian case was when it came to "proof" that Russian separatists had launched the Buk missile which allegedly took down flight MH-17; we also highlighted several glaring inconsistencies and questions that still remained open after the "incriminatory" YouTube clip release. So far, any international response has been muted to this hastily prepared evidence of Russian involvement, although the day is still young.

    So what about the Russian side? Below we present the key arguments made by Russia to suggest that not it, but Ukraine, was responsible for taking down the Malaysian Boeing.

    As reported earlier by RIA, the Russian Defense Ministry says it had intercepted the activity of a Ukrainian radar system on the day the Malaysian plane went down in eastern Ukraine, the ministry's press service said Friday.

    "Throughout the day on July 17, Russian means of radar surveillance intercepted the operation of the Buk-M1 battery's Kupol radar station located in the region of the populated area of Styla [30 kilometers south of Donetsk]," the press service said in a statement.

    "The technical capabilities of the Buk-M1 allow the exchange of data on air targets between batteries of one battalion. Thus, the launch of rockets could have also occurred from any of the batteries deployed in the populated area of Avdeevka [8 kilometers north of Donetsk] or from Gruzsko-Zoryanskoe [25 kilometers east of Donetsk]," the ministry said.

    Latina Lover

    Memo from NWO:

    You mean Russians will be allowed to give their side of the story?

    This cannot be allowed. We need WW3 to reputiate national debts and kill off the useless eaters. How else are we going to convince the sheeple to commit mass suicide while we get even richer?

    Gaius Frakkin' ...

    Isn't it interesting how Russian state media presents precise details and facts while USSA state media whips up vague generalizations appealing to emotion.

    BaBaBouy

    The Big QUESTION IS: Who Sent That Doomed Plane Over The Center Of THE WAR ZONE ?????

    Its The At THe Heart Of This Tradgedy AND Pretty Fucking Clear...

    One Wonders, Is Anyone Sending A Civil Plane To Fly Over GAZA Today???

    pods

    I got a question, we killed like a million non-combatants in Iraq, why is 300 dead here a big deal?

    I mean, it sucks, but in the big scheme of things we (the US for all those arguers) probably kills this many innocents in a month RIGHT NOW.

    pods

    nope-1004

    You're right, it's not a big deal in reality but in the media it is because the picture being painted is one of a radical Russian gov't that shot down a civilian airliner. US media is playing with your emotions. In Iraq the picture painted was some wonderful freedom fighting Merikans liberating a nation of its oil.... I mean, dictator.

    "Humanitarian efforts" always make people back a movement, even if the underlying reasons (oil, USD reserve status) are not fully disclosed.

    CognacAndMencken

    I'm really astonished how the utopian libertarians in the comments section of ZeroHedge are such ardent supporters of Russia's newest dictator. You guys bash/hate America, the western economic system, American workers, American corporations - basically everything American - and you guys LOVE Putin. Serious MAN-crush. I remember a ZH article about Putin some time ago showing pictures of Putin with guns and hunting and doing sporting events, and you guys were LUSTING after him. *LOL* Unreal. Who would have ever guessed that libertarians would sympathize with Russian dictators? A few years ago at ZH, this was unheard of.....


    angel_of_joy

    ZH readers still have a somewhat reasonable amount of common sense, and like to think with their own brains regardless what media is force feeding them.

    Which is not something that can be said about you, for one thing... Too much cognac, I

    Herd Redirection Committee

    In the Putin/Obama game, yes, ZH loves Putin. How could you not?

    Thats as far as it goes. I think the average Russian and the average American have more in common with each other than they do with their respective 'leaders'.

    NoPantsSpongeBob
    I think the whole thing is a distraction from Gaza conflict.

    http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/18/glenn_greenwald_why_did_nbc_pull

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/cnn-reporter-calls-israelis-cheeri...

    nmewn
    The simple fact is, "the separatists" don't have an air force for the Ukrainians to target. This was an accidental shoot down by the Russian side, what the plane was doing that far east is the only mystery.

    Kapital Xposure

    the BUK missile system doesnt just use 1 truck as widely reported, it needs multiple trucks in triangulation to be able to work and target anything at those altitudes, all trucks need skilled operators to work in unison to fire a missile and hit a target.

    so captuing just a BUK unit on its own is not really a problem, but having the entire portable system in place with all units working together means you control that airspace up to 40,000 easily

    so how did these rebels get hold of the entire system and where did they get the technicians skilled enough in running a complex ground to air system like this?

    we lost 9 people from melbourne australia here alone, 27 all up from australia, the russians to be killing australians is not something we are liking right now, and i want nothing more than to find all of those responsible, from the top down to the bottom.. and drop them out of a plane at 32,000 feet and give them the same chance they gave the children from melbourne they murdered.

    RIP and we will not forget the deaths of the children father and mothers that were murdered.

    topshelfstuff

    The Spanish air controller confirms a conflict between the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of the Interior intimating that the order concerning the downing of the aircraft came from the Ministry of the Interior, which is dominated by Svoboda and Right Sector.

    'This Kiev air traffic controller is a citizen of Spain and was working in the Ukraine. He was taken off duty as a civil air-traffic controller along with other foreigners immediately after a Malaysia Airlines passenger aircraft was shot down over the Eastern Ukraine killing 295 passengers and crew on board.

    He also said that the MH17 flight was escorted by Ukrainian fighter jets minutes before it was downed. It is worth noting that the presence of the Ukraine fighter jets reported by the Spanish air traffic controller was confirmed by eyewitness reports in the Donetsk region:

    [Jul 18, 2014] Was Ukraine's Ministry of Interior behind the Downing of Malaysian Airlines MH17 By Prof Michel Chossudovsky

    July 18, 2014 | Global Research

    A division of Buk missile systems of the Ukrainian Armed Forces was, according to Pravda, deployed to the Donetsk Oblast on July 15, two days before the downing of the Malaysian airlines MH17 flight. The Buk missile system has the capabilities of downing an aircraft flying at 35,000 feet.

    While the Pravda report remains to be confirmed, Russian Defense sources confirm the presence of several missile batteries in the Donesk oblast operated by the Ukraine armed forces:

    'The Ukrainian military has several batteries of Buk surface-to-air missile systems with at least 27 launchers, capable of bringing down high-flying jets, in the Donetsk region where the Malaysian passenger plane crashed, Russian Defense Ministry said"(RT, July 17, 2014)

    Of significance, the Prosecutor General of Ukraine Vitaliy Yarema confirmed that the Donesk rebels do not have Buk or S 300 ground to air missiles which could have downed the plane.

    According to the Kiev Post report: "Ukrainian prosecutor general says militants did not seize Ukrainian air defense launchers"

    Members of illegal armed units have not seized air defense launchers of the Ukrainian Armed Forces in Donetsk, Ukrainian Prosecutor General Vitaliy Yarema said. (Kiev Post)

    Yarema also confirmed that according to military sources:

    "After the passenger airliner was downed, the military reported to the president that terrorists do not have our air defense missile systems Buk and S-300," (quoted by Itar-Tass).

    This disclaimer is pro forma. It comes from official sources and can easily be reversed at a later date as part of the propaganda campaign directed against the Donbass rebels.

    Yet what appears to be contradictory in these various statements is that immediately after the downing of MH17, an adviser to the Ukrainian Minister of Internal Affairs Mr. Anton Gerashchenko stated categorically that the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 MH17:

    "had been downed by an air defense missile system Buk" (without however mentioning who was behind the missile operation)

    According to the Ukraine Interfax News Agency Anton Gerashchenko, "said on Facebook that the plane was flying at an altitude of 33,000 feet when it was hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher." According to the Strait Times:

    Mr Gerashchenko was quoted as saying: "A civilian airliner travelling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur has just been shot down by a Buk anti-aircraft system… 280 passengers and 15 crew have been killed."

    How could he have known what type of missile system had brought down the plane? His statement contradicts that of the Ukrainian military.

    Gerashchenko runs a ministry of interior propaganda program at the www.stopterror.in.ua website. See also http://uacrisis.org/anton-gerashhenko/

    [Jul 18, 2014] Sifting through the wreckage of MH17, searching for sense amid the horror by Jonathan Freedland

    "news is to the mind what sugar is to the body"
    The Guardian
    In the face of events from Ukraine to Gaza, we want to believe that the world is not a place of uncontrollable catastrophe

    Any journalist should hesitate before saying this, but news can be bad for you. You don't have to agree with the analyst who reckons "news is to the mind what sugar is to the body" to see that reading of horror and foreboding hour by hour, day after day, can sap the soul. This week ended with a double dose, administered within the space of a few hours: Israel's ground incursion into Gaza and, more shocking because entirely unexpected, the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 over Ukraine, killing all 298 on board

    The different responses these events stir in those of us who are distant, and the strategies we devise to cope with them, say much about our behaviour as consumers of news. But they also go some way to determining our reaction as citizens, as constituent members of the amorphous body we call public, or even world, opinion.

    As I write, 18 of the 20 most-read articles on the Guardian website are about MH17. The entry into Gaza by Israeli forces stands at number 21. It's not hard to fathom why the Malaysian jet strikes the louder chord. As the preacher might put it, "There but for the grace of God go I." Stated baldly, most of us will never live in Gaza, but we know it could have been us boarding that plane in Amsterdam.

    Which is why there is a morbid fascination with tales of the passenger who changed flights at the last minute, thereby cheating death, or with the crew member who made the opposite move, hastily switching to MH17 at the final moment, taking a decision that would have seemed so trivial at the time but which cost him his life. When we read about the debris – the holiday guidebooks strewn over the Ukrainian countryside, the man found next to an iPhone, the boy with his seatbelt still on – our imaginations put us on that flight. Of course we have sympathy for the victims and their families. But our fear is for ourselves.

    The reports from Gaza stir a different feeling. When we read the Guardian's Peter Beaumont describe the sights he saw driving around the strip on Friday morning – three Palestinian siblings killed by an Israeli artillery shell that crashed into their bedroom, a father putting the remains of his two-year-old son into a plastic shopping bag – we are shaken by a different kind of horror. It is compassion for another human being, someone in a situation utterly different to ours. We don't worry that this might happen to us, as we now might when we contemplate an international flight over a war zone. Our reaction is directed not inward, but outward.

    Unrepresented , 18 July 2014 8:20pm

    When we get all but a full cavity search in order to board a passenger plane why do they allow a commercial airliner to fly over a war zone. This one is down to our own authorities that plane should never have been there.
    jefferd -> Unrepresented , 18 July 2014 8:38pm
    So they were asking for it were they ?
    Rialbynot -> Unrepresented , 18 July 2014 8:44pm
    That's my view too.

    Also, if the West had urged Ukraine to go for the federalisation option, there would be no "separatists" in the east.

    Ever since independence in 1991, Ukraine has been pretending that it can be a second France - a unitary state imposing a single national identity on all its various ethnic and religious groups.
    This is why Ukraine has been so dysfunctional, because what France achieved in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries -- national unification and ethnic harmonisation -- cannot be repeated in the early twenty-first century by Ukraine.

    A far better governance model for Ukraine would have been (would be) the Federal Republic of Germany.
    Pity the US leadership has been too dumb to point this out to Kiev.

    [Jul 18, 2014] The Vineyard of the Saker Evidence Continues to Emerge

    The Vineyard of the Saker

    RESUME OF ANALYSIS: What all this means is that if a BUK rocket was launched from the territory controlled by the Militia, the Boeing would have fallen much further to the south-east – i.e. will into the Russian territory. Otherwise, there would have been not time to detect the aircraft, perform electronic capture and launch the rocket. If this was a BUK, and not a jet fighter, then it is most likely that the launch was made from the territory controlled by the Ukrainian army, and the rocket was sent "chasing after" the airplane.

    Original: 4yma3iy LiveJournal

    I am not an aerodynamics specialist. I am a radioelectronics expert. Nevertheless, I specialize in aviation. If there are aerodynamics specialists here, please critique away.

    Initial Data: the plane's elevation is 10,000 metres, speed is 900 km/h (or 250 m/s).

    Judging from the photos from the site of the crash, where all the pieces lie together in one place, it appears that the plane fell as a whole (i.e. some fragments may have broken off, but the fuselage remained intact). So, the aircraft well "as one piece" – i.e. it did not break apart in the air.

    Accordingly, it must be considered as one body, the speed of which has a very large dependence on air resistance, particularly given the design features and its intended use.

    The time of a body's free fall:

    T = sqrt(2h/g)

    Thus, from a height of 10,000 metres, a body will fall:

    T = sqrt(2*10000/9.8) = 45 second – HOWEVER! – this applies only in vacuum.

    At the same time, the downward velocity when falling from this height is:

    V = sqrt(2gh)

    This speed will equal 442 m/s – HOWEVER! – this, once again, applies only in vacuum.

    In real-life conditions a fall happens with a certain maximum speed, at which the force of air resistance becomes equal to the force of gravity. For a person's body, for instance, this speed is equal to 40 m/s. For a bullet, this speed is approximately 50 m/s (depending on form and mass). Given the plane's mass and its enormous size, let's take this speed to be 40 m/s.

    Accordingly, the plane would have been falling approximately 250 second – let's round it off to 4 minutes, which is quite close to what happened.

    Let's accept that the reduction of horizontal speed also occurs pursuant to a linear equation with certain acceleration.

    The vector of the force of front air resistance is directed against the speed of movement, and its magnitude is proportional to characteristic area S, density of the environment ρ, and speed V squared:

    V=C((P*V^2)/2)*S

    For the aerodynamically well-designed body of an aircraft, Cx < 0.3

    Let's calculate the force of air resistance at the speed of 250 m/s

    0.3*1.26*250*250/2*50=590кН

    The mass of Boeing 777 = 300 ton (in equipped state)

    It means that horizontal deceleration due to air resistance would be 590/300 = 2 m/s^2 – just as I suspected (however, this is at the maximum speed).

    Now, let's take our favourite highschool equation:

    X=(V1^2-V0^2)/2a

    Given the nonlinear nature of deceleration, divide it in half – and we get 31 kilometres.

    Let's consider the strike distance of the rocket. Maximum strike distance of AGM-86 ALSM rocket:

    At the height of 30 m – 20 km
    At the height of 6,000 m – 26 km
    The chance of a successful strike: 0.6 – 0.8

    This distance should not be mistaken for the distance of detection.

    Map: Yellow Pin to the West = Estimated Rocket Launch Location; Yellow Pin To the East = Crash Site (not included --NNB)

    What all this means is that if a BUK rocket was launched from the territory controlled by the Militia, the Boeing would have fallen much further to the south-east – i.e. well into the Russian territory. Otherwise, there would have been no time to detect the aircraft, perform electronic capture and launch the rocket.

    If this was a BUK, and not a jet fighter, then it is most likely that the launch was made from the territory controlled by the Ukrainian army, and the rocket was sent "chasing after" the airplane.

    [Jul 18, 2014] Kiev deployed powerful anti-air systems to E. Ukraine ahead of the Malaysian plane crash

    July 17, 2014 | RT News

    "According to the Russian Defense Ministry information, units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine located in the crash-site are equipped with anti-aircraft missile systems of "Buk-M1" ... These complexes in their tactical and technical characteristics are capable of detecting air targets at ranges of up to 160 kilometers and hit them at full altitude range at a distance of over 30 kilometers," the ministry's statement reads as cited by Ria.

    ... ... ...

    There's no way that the self-defense forces in Donetsk Region are in possession of such complex weaponry, he stressed. Only S-300 and Buk surface-to-air missile systems are capable of hitting targets at such altitude, the source said.

    Buk is a family of self-propelled, medium-range surface-to-air missile systems developed by the former USSR and Russia to engage targets at an engagement altitude of 11,000-25,000 meters depending on the model.

    Chances are high that the Malaysian plane was really downed by the Ukrainian anti-aircraft defense, Yury Karash, pilot and aviation expert, told RT.

    "A Boeing-777 is an extremely reliable piece of machinery. Modern planes don't just crash with no reason," he said. "Let us recall how a Ukrainian missile downed Russian TU-154 aircraft ten years ago. I can't completely exclude the possibility the Boeing-777 was also hit by a missile."

    "I don't know who could've shot it down. But I can allege that it was most likely the Ukrainian armed forces: simply because its military – anti-aircraft defense, in particular – are, unfortunately, unqualified. As judging by the overall state of the Ukrainian armed forces, insufficient attention has been paid to their training," Karash added.

    Reports in the Western media hurried to blame the self-defense forces of the People's Republic of Donetsk for bringing the plane down.

    The claims were denied by the representatives of the Donetsk People's Republic, saying that it's the Ukrainian military, which destroyed the aircraft.

    "We simply don't have such air defense systems. Our man-portable air defense systems have a firing range 3,000 - 4,000 meters. The Boeing was flying at a much higher altitude," Sergey Kavtaradze, special representative for the prime minister of the Donetsk People's Republic, explained.

    Kavtaradze also expressed condolences to the relatives of all of those who lost their lives in the tragedy.

    IHS Jane's Defense analyst, Nick de Larrinaga, also shared the belief that the self-defense forces lack the capability to bring the Malaysian plane down.

    "At normal cruising altitude a civilian passenger aircraft would be out of the range of the sort of manned portable air (defense) systems that we have seen proliferate in rebel hands in east Ukraine," he said in a statement.

    But the aircraft would be within range of Buk or other medium-range surface-to-air missile systems, he stressed.

    "Both Russia and Ukraine have such SAM systems in their inventories," the expert added.

    It seems unlikely that the self-defense forces could've used Buk surface-to-air missile systems to down the Malaysian plane, retired Brig. Gen. Kevin Ryan, the director of the Defense and Intelligence Project at the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs, said.

    "It takes a lot of training and a lot of coordination to fire one of these and hit something," he told CNN. "This is not the kind of weapon a couple of guys are going to pull out of a garage and fire."

    According to Ryan, if the plane was really taken down then it was done by a professional military force.

    [Jul 17, 2014] Missile destroys Malaysia Airlines plane over Ukraine, killing 298 people

    The Guardian
    The huge loss of life threatens to have wide-ranging and unpredictable consequences, coming just after the US imposed further sanctions on Russia for continuing to provide weapons to the rebels. Defence and security experts said the Russian-made Buk surface-to-air missile system, known to be in the hands of pro-Russia fighters in Ukraine, was most likely used.

    "This was not an 'incident', this was not a 'catastrophe', this was a terrorist act," said Ukraine's president, Petro Poroshenko.

    ... Putin chaired a meeting on the Russian economy which began with a minute's silence, and laid the blame for the crash at Ukraine's door: "There is no doubt that the nation over whose airspace this happened bears responsibility for the terrible tragedy," he said.

    US government officials confirmed to media outlets that a surface-to-air missile brought down the plane. US intelligence was reportedly still working to determine the exact location from which the missile was fired, and whether it was on the Russian or the Ukrainian side of the border.

    Rebels in the self-declared Donetsk and Luhansk people's republics have shot down several Ukrainian planes and helicopters in recent weeks. But they insisted they had no part in the downing of MH17, claiming instead that Ukrainian fire was responsible.

    ... ... ...

    Questions were being raised as to why Malaysia Airlines had continued to fly over such a volatile region, where separatists were known to be shooting at aircraft. Qantas, the Australian carrier, said it had been steering clear of the area by 400 nautical miles for several months. Malaysia Airlines said after the crash that it had altered its flight paths and other airlines either did likewise or emphasised they had already been taking alternative routes.

    Selected Comments
    marcolo, 17 July 2014 9:13pm
    Apparently separatists were bragging on Twitter about shooting down another Ukrainian military plane. Wonder if there's any truth to this. It certainly does look like a catastrophic blunder. If it was the separatists with covert help from Russia, I can't see how Putin can wriggle out of it.
    nfnfnf -> marcolo, 17 July 2014 9:21pm
    Do we think the CIA can't hack peoples twitter accounts?

    smingy, 17 July 2014 9:14pm

    I'm sure that all sides will point the finger as usual, forgetting the fact that 295 innocent people have lost their lives over some pathetic feud.
    jodro -> smingy, 17 July 2014 10:13pm
    Indeed. And one more thing: could we please have slightly less Anglo-Saxon-centred reporting please? The article states...
    US authorities were working to determine whether American citizens were
    yet one look at a Dutch newspaper web site reveals that at least 154 Dutch people died. Last I checked The Netherlands were a neighbouring country, also in Europe. It would grace The Guardian (and I expect other UK news outlets will have the same Anglo-Saxon bias) to report on this aspect of this horrible event as well.
    Marko Raos -> smingy, 17 July 2014 11:32pm
    I wouldn't call a full blown civil war "some pathetic feud." However tragic this event may be, lets keep some sense of proportion. For people fighting and dying down there on the ground, for their country and way of life, whatever it may be, this is not some "pathetic feud."
    Your comment is insulting to both ukraininans and russians.
    timbercrown -> AimfortheGoal , 18 July 2014 12:56am
    Please take note all you apologists and propagandists for from both sides who will soon be crowding these pages with absurd and conspiratorial claims and counter-claims. You are so pathetic.

    And then watch, before very long they will lay blame with the US government and the CIA instead of taking responsibility for their own mess.

    Make feeble attempt at taking the high moral ground and then proceed to defend the US.

    WaitroseWarrior , 17 July 2014 9:15pm
    i think they mistook it for fighter jet
    szymon -> WaitroseWarrior , 17 July 2014 9:35pm
    You can't mistake a commercial airliner for a fighter jet. Different speed, different altitude, different radar profile.
    hertsred -> szymon , 17 July 2014 9:39pm
    Tell that to the Iranians who died on a commercial jet when USS Vincennes mistook them for an Iranian fighter.
    RvonMises -> hertsred , 17 July 2014 9:51pm
    Well, considering the history the yanks have with confusing blue and orange, it's not surprising.
    RVictor -> szymon , 17 July 2014 9:58pm
    You can't mistake a commercial airliner for a fighter jet
    Yes, you cannot mistake a commercial airliner for a fighter jet. But you can use this argument for defense like it was when US shut down Iranian plane.
    Gorram -> hertsred, 17 July 2014 11:52pm
    Good point and the crew of the Vincennes were all awarded combat action ribbons for completion of their tours in a combat zone. The ship's commander received the Navy Commendation Medal for acts of heroism or meritorious service.

    Let's not forget that the US probably shot down an Italian commercial plane near Ustica in 1980 when attempting to shoot down a Libyan plane that was possibly carrying Gaddafi or high ranking Libyan official. The subsequent cover-up is quite revealing.

    Seems strange as well that the US knew nothing of the other Malaysian flight that disappeared earlier this year. Those seas are swarming with US navy ships trying to intimidate and spy on China, but yet didn't notice that flight?

    Aguia, 17 July 2014 9:16pm

    Of course, blame the anti-government rebels right away with no proof. Disgraceful.

    Menotti -> Aguia, 17 July 2014 9:25pm

    To be fair, the European Air Traffic Control Authority have confirmed it was a missile; which suggests that they have tracked it on some radar somewhere, presumably indicating where it came from.
    DomesticExtremist -> Menotti , 17 July 2014 9:28pm
    Well, that's interesting, because IATA said this:
    Statement on MH17

    Geneva, Switzerland - 7pm

    We extend our deepest sympathies to the families and friends of the passengers and crew of MH17. Based on the information currently available it is believed that the airspace that the aircraft was traversing was not subject to restrictions.

    DomesticExtremist -> DomesticExtremist, 17 July 2014 9:31pm
    ...but Eurocontrol say this:
    MH 17 - Ukraine
    17 Jul 2014

    MH 17 - Ukraine – 17 July 2014

    EUROCONTROL has been informed that MH 17 en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur has crashed in the eastern part of Ukraine.

    Our thoughts are with the families and friends of those on board.

    According to our information, the aircraft was flying at Flight Level 330 (approximately 10,000 metres/33,000 feet) when it disappeared from the radar. This route had been closed by the Ukrainian authorities from ground to flight level 320 but was open at the level at which the aircraft was flying.

    Since the crash, the Ukrainian authorities have informed EUROCONTROL of the closure of routes from the ground to unlimited in Eastern Ukraine (Dnipropetrovsk Flight Information Region). All flight plans that are filed using these routes are now being rejected by EUROCONTROL. The routes will remain closed until further notice.

    The European Aviation Crisis Coordination Cell is being activated to coordinate the response to the impact of the airspace closure.

    Menotti DomesticExtremist, 17 July 2014 9:35pm
    How is that 'interesting'? Eurocontrol have said it was 1,000ft above the restricted airspace. Unless I need to don my tinfoil hat to get your meaning.
    DomesticExtremist Menotti, 17 July 2014 9:38pm
    Well, you seem to already have it on - the Eurocontrol statement makes no mention of any missile.
    NatBridges Aguia , 17 July 2014 11:07pm
    Of course, blame the anti-government rebels right away with no proof. Disgraceful.

    Yes, I agree. The MSM is being totally disgraceful pinning the blame on the anti-gov rebels so early on without evidence. Shameful.

    RIP the poor people who died.

    bobbygaga 17 July 2014 9:18pm
    My condolences go out to the families of the victims. All those involved in this crime should take a hard look at themselves in the mirror and then go and hand themselves in. No hiding.

    monkie bobbygaga, 17 July 2014 9:56pm

    My condolences go out to the families of the victims. All those involved in this crime should take a hard look at themselves in the mirror and then go and hand themselves in. No hiding.
    exactly, i was also quite shocked at the rush by the guardian to print unsubstantiated claims that the russian state was directly responsible for this despicable act, the so called experts they quote "forget" that civilian aircraft have transponders and the missile system alleged to have shot down the plane has a IFF system (as have all radars since 1939?). this means they are suggesting that the russian state deliberately ordered the downing of a civilian aircraft, a act which assumes russia(ns) are not only irredeemably evil but staggeringly stupid, why commit such a act when it is directly conflicts with their strategic interests.
    i would think it more likely, and would be less controversial, if the russians had started a ground war in the ukraine and droned its president, than to shoot down a civilian plane in the hope of achieving what exactly?
    Lovecake Jeffmondo, 17 July 2014 11:33pm
    Spanish dispatcher who led the plane confirmed there were two Ukrainians jet near by few minutes before plane crashed:
    "El avión B 777 voló escoltado por 2 cazas de ukraine hasta minutos antes, de desaparecer de los radares,"
    "The plane flew B 777 escorted by two fighter ukraine until minutes before disappearing from the radar,"
    https://twitter.com/spainbuca
    At least maybe this time we will know who is responsible, updates seems to come up quickly.
    shoogledoogle -> leonorp , 18 July 2014 12:43am
    Eh, I can confirm the Spanish translation, and that the page looks pretty genuine, though it is skewed against the Ukrainians, with pictures of "Ukrainian war crimes".

    The guy works as an Air Traffic Controller in Eastern Ukraine.

    Ukraine compra armas, las carga en sus aviones, pilotados por pilotos mercenarios, matan ciudadanos en el este, pero acusarán a rusia

    "Ukraine buys weapons, carried in planes piloted by mercenaries, kill civilians in the East, but blame the Russians."

    I have no idea whether the allegation is true, but one certainly can't imagine that the Twitter feed is a neutral source.

    DomesticExtremist, 17 July 2014 9:21pm

    Missile destroys Malaysia Airlines plane and kills 295 people

    This headline is almost as misleading as the now infamous

    Israel under renewed Hamas assault

    We simply do not know for sure if it was a missile arrack, let alone who is responsible for firing it, either from the ground or from the air.

    There also remains the possibility of terrorism or catastrophic mechanical failure (we never did fine out what happened to MH390, also a 777).

    Dreagon , 17 July 2014 9:24pm
    Well, there are only three parties capable of this act in the area....Ukraine, the rebels, and Russia. Ukraine and Russia both should have the ability to identify a civilian aircraft with it's transponder going, and neither have a motive to down an airliner. The rebels are the ones who don't have the infrastructure behind their captured missile systems to double check a targets identity.

    This was a tragedy, and a screw up of colossal proportions. It is a first rate example of what can happen when yokels get their hands on high tech military equipment without having the systems or procedures in place to verify their targets.

    daveru07 Zoltán Lengyel , 17 July 2014 9:42pm
    However, a report on the website of Russian state television from late June described how the rebels in Donetsk had taken control of of a Ukrainian missile defence facility which was equipped with Buk systems. The report said that the rebels planned to "defend the sky over Donetsk" using the missile system.

    The "Buk" system (SA-11) is capable of shooting down a plane at 33,000 ft.

    nfnfnf , 17 July 2014 9:26pm
    Many of the posters on here will pretend they know who did this, but they don't know, and probably never will.
    The Americans and Ukrainians will work together to produce some 'evidence' which 'proves' it was the russians. The russians will do likewise 'proving' it was the Ukrainians. Us plebs will never know the truth.
    TheDogShouterer , 17 July 2014 9:27pm
    If a country at war imposes a no-fly zone over their disputed airspace up to a height of 32,000 feet, why would an airline risk travelling a tad above that zone at 33,000 feet? What if you encountered severe turbulence at that height? What provision would there be for an emergency landing? It doesn't make sense that anyone should be flying over that disputed and violent zone. I'd assumed nobody was.
    TheGreatRonRafferty -> TheDogShouterer , 17 July 2014 9:41pm
    Apparently planes already in the sky were diverted afterwards, so it would appear that quite a few were using this route.
    TheDogShouterer -> TheGreatRonRafferty , 17 July 2014 11:04pm
    True, and maybe they were being cautious in specifying a floor of 32,000 feet, but still, I've been on a flight on which the crew cruised at various heights from 37,000ft down to 17,000ft to try and avoid turbulence. You would have thought no airline would accept flying in such a restricted strata of airspace.
    gormenghastly , 17 July 2014 9:28pm
    Normally, the correct response would be to wait and see what evidence emerges. In this part of the world, however, you can be sure that the "truth" will never be known.

    Abertawe -> gormenghastly , 17 July 2014 9:29pm
    And in the meantime CiF will be overrun with contributors refusing to believe the evidence (or lack of evidence) and accusing the world of a cover up.

    Simongah , 17 July 2014 9:28pm
    Can we please stop talking rubbish?

    Rubbish like saying separatists mistakenly shot down the plane?

    No one did this by mistake. The plane was 30,000 ft. They could not have just pointed and shot. You've got to use sophisticated radar and weaponry to take out a plane at that height. And even the rebels could work out that this was a passenger jet and not a military one, which would be much lower in height. And you have to be a bit odd to think that the rebels would take a pot shot at a passenger plane flying toward Russian airspace. What do you think the 'dictator' Putin would do to them if they shot down 300 Russians, accidentally or otherwise?

    And can we stop the rubbish about the Russian military? They would know that it was a Malaysian passenger jet. Why would they shoot that down? Is Putin planning to declare war on Malaysia?

    MattDrayton , 17 July 2014 9:29pm
    "The Ukrainian government accused the rebels of downing the jet"

    Ukrainian government?

    "Ukrainian missile defence facility which was equipped with Buk systems."

    An opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information seems to be the point of view of all. Let us not start another war. Conjecture was and is the basis for the coverage of Ukraine. Let us seek truth from the facts.

    murhill Malkatrinho , 18 July 2014 12:38am
    Is this a trick question? BOTH OF THEM.

    The Russians near Korea and before that, near Finland.

    And the Ukrainians shot down a flight from Israel to Russia over the Black Sea in 2001.

    ropa511 murhill , 18 July 2014 12:53am
    And lets not forget when the US shot down an Iran Airlines airbus.......
    Evan Vrysoulis , 17 July 2014 9:30pm
    Aviation expert Major Charles Hayman told Sky News: "It's possible the Ukrainians flapped a bit, thought the plane was hostile and shot it down.
    WillyMarz , 17 July 2014 9:30pm
    The separatists have neither means nor motive for such a strike, and yet according to the Guardian: "Pro-Russia rebels are blamed as airliner is downed over Ukraine, close to Russian border"

    These are nebulous assertions with no basis and not fig of sense to it. The Guardian seems desperate for a war and to be in league with fascists and ultra-nationalists.

    raffine , 17 July 2014 9:30pm

    Pretty stupid rebels to shoot down a passenger airline. The blowback will be immense.

    james johns , 17 July 2014 9:30pm

    I think we are missing the point here. The airlines have been playing with peoples lives for months flying over one of the most dangerous warzones in the world at the moment and havent even considered that this will happen because it would cost money to divert flights. They should be sued to bankruptcy!
    Robin Wilde , 17 July 2014 9:31pm
    I very much pity the poor people on this flight, who had nothing to do with the conflict and did not deserve what happened to them.

    I'm going to treat this as an accidental shooting down unless confirmed otherwise. Not to say they didn't mean to fire but that they thought they were shooting at a transport plane or bomber. I don't think either side would start deliberately blowing up passengers, not least because of the publicity damage it will do.

    Huples -> Robin Wilde , 18 July 2014 12:40am
    Thankfully no Americans were on the plane. With the rhetoric seemingly wanting war against Russia from the Whitehouse that would have worsened this.
    iacula , 17 July 2014 9:31pm
    This is surely a tragic error. I can't see a motive for shooting down an airliner. It reflects badly on all sides. We feel of course for the innocent victims.
    SFDPSFDP -> iacula, 17 July 2014 10:39pm
    Discredit the separatists and Russia , force the hand of Europeans to adopt tougher sanctions against Russia (phase 3) , get countries that were neutral so far to empathize and side with the Ukrainian authorities , prepare international public opinion for sending troops there among other motives .

    Otherwise it could be an accident indeed, though shooting down an airplane at this altitude requires powerful radars that would also identify the type of aircraft so it sounds quite unlikely but entirely possible

    shaun , 17 July 2014 9:32pm
    BUK missile systems were reputedly. delivered to the Ukrainian army the day before. (Wednesday) The other "coincidence" is that the paths of this plane and Putins crossed somewhere near Warsaw just before the crash. There also could be a superficiel similarity between the two. At the moment It seems there is a high probability that the Ukranians were responsible.
    shaun -> shaun , 17 July 2014 9:36pm
    "I can say that Putin's plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft - 15:44 Moscow time," a source told the news agency on condition of anonymity.
    This is the Interfax report. NOTE that it is the only one, and has been contradicted, so take any and all "expert" reports, including those from Kiev or the US with a large amount of salt.
    Harry Baggins , 17 July 2014 9:32pm

    So now that the Russians have sole possession of the black box, you KNOW they are going to lie and blame this on Ukraine. They are just salivating over this right now. The U.S. had better investigate themselves quickly to defend Ukraine.

    shaun Harry Baggins, 17 July 2014 9:38pm

    The black box will NOT tell who fired. It doesn't record that, unless the pilots visually identified who was shooting at them from ten kilometres up in the air.

    Soul_Side

    17 July 2014 9:32pm

    Fatal blunder? Sophisticated false flag? Unless the perpetrators admit to attacking a civilian plane, the answer to this will never be known. So, it will never be known.

    But, always be wary of the side that seeks to gain most from the incident.

    And, always be wary of the side that seeks to use the deaths of innocent people to justify the death of other innocent people in response. If they are prepared to kill innocent people in response, you can be certain they are the kind of people prepared to have killed in the first place. Listen carefully to the commentators.

    Novus_Ordo_Seclorum Soul_Side, 17 July 2014 9:41pm

    As Stalin once said ""When one person dies, it's a tragedy, but when a million people die, it's a statistic."

    All it is, is collateral for a greater purpose. So sad for those who got caught up in the World's war games.

    Soul_Side Novus_Ordo_Seclorum , 17 July 2014 9:53pm

    Novus_Ordo_Seclorum said:

    All it is, is collateral for a greater purpose.

    I hope and wish we're both wrong, but profitable wars don't start by themselves, now do they?

    Novus_Ordo_Seclorum Soul_Side , 17 July 2014 9:58pm

    I hope we are both wrong as well, but like you touched on, the only people who benefit from wars is the arms dealers and Corporate giants (ie banks and the pharmaceutical companies) and of course the World leaders! Sadly, the people are the collateral.

    Lenaa , 17 July 2014 9:33pm

    The most reliable info so far can be found here - tweets by the Spanish dispatcher:
    https://twitter.com/spainbuca

    Note: he says that there were two Ukrainian military airlines following the Malaysian plane; and he also questions how the Ukrainian authorities announced so swiftly that the airplane "had exploded".

    Separately, the freedom-fighters (aka as "pro-Russian separatists") do not have the capability of shooting down a plane at the height it was flying.

    Notwithstanding the above, it is a bit early to speculate. Let's see what the conclusions will be derived based on the evidence in the black box (allegedly already found).

    GuillotinesRUs , 17 July 2014 9:33pm

    Just read a report there is speculation that the real target was Putin's aircraft.

    KingCnutCase GuillotinesRUs, 17 July 2014 9:47pm

    Which is utterly absurd. Ypu think the Ukrainians want to provoke a full scale invasion by Russia by shooting its president put of the sky? Ludicrous propaganda.

    meander88888 KingCnutCase , 17 July 2014 10:02pm

    War is utterly absurd and ludicrous ,
    and so are assasinations

    sarkany , 17 July 2014 9:38pm

    Gulf of Tonkin, anyone?

    Apparently Putin's jet was flying at the same altitude, similar flight path at around the same time...

    Obama already grandstanding - exactly what business is it of the USA?

    Absolute tragedy, let's hope it's not the start of a worse one...

    GuillotinesRUs , 17 July 2014 9:39pm

    Source RT

    LIVE UPDATES:Malaysia Airlines MH17 plane crash in Ukraine

    "I can say that Putin's plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft - 15:44 Moscow time," a source told the news agency on condition of anonymity.

    gormenghastly , 17 July 2014 9:41pm

    Amazing how so many people on this site have intimate knowledge of what's really going on over there. You'd think they'd be in high level crisis meetings right now, not posting from their mom's basements.

    Huples gormenghastly , 18 July 2014 12:46am

    BTL Cobra meetings already called for. We will do everything, everything to avert further losses of Malaysian airliners. This nation stands united in both our sorrow and determination to have Ukraine join NATO no matter what some of their population wishes.

    Willoby , 17 July 2014 9:44pm

    Sub headline: "Pro-Russia rebels are blamed as airliner comes down in east Ukraine"

    They are only being 'blamed' by Kiev. In the absence of proof at this stage why can't the UK press remain unbias?

    There is also cause to suspect possible Kiev troops involvement - take a look at the red blue stripe markings on the Malaysian plane - it looks like Russian markings - and Kiev untrained forces made a dreadful error.

    AXWE08 , 17 July 2014 9:44pm

    Inevitably there is a lot of speculation at the moment. Rest assured, the waters will be muddied by accusation and counter accusation. It is hardly surprising that Kiev will try to blame the rebels. Hopefully it should become apparent from satellite intelligence who fired what and where. My wife overflew this region on an Austrian Airlines flight recently without a mention that it was passing through a war zone. Who decides when diversions are necessary? The airlines themselves it seems.

    Carlinn

    17 July 2014 9:45pm

    I have only one important question for this situation. How is it possible that airplane flew through territory where constantly persist a national war? I think It's unacceptably.

    BigNowitzki Carlinn

    17 July 2014 9:47pm

    Commercial aircraft flew over Vietnam during the Vietnam War. However, in recent years, there is an increased threat of groups getting hold of the type of weapons that can threaten airliners above 30,000ft.

    Obviously, and without the benefit of hindsight, it would be sensible to avoid the airspace of areas of conflict. Sadly, there is conflict in quite a of lot of places.

    mauman , 17 July 2014 9:53pm

    Inclined to believe an accident by either the rebels or someone else wanting to blame Russia.
    I doubt the missile was fired by Russia.

    Who in their right minds flies a commercial jet over a warzone where seperatists are taking shots at aircraft as they are usually military.

    Anybody blaming Russia directly, I think, has an agenda. I'd expect such BS from Washington.

    Sad for those killed.

    Vizier mauman , 17 July 2014 10:06pm

    If, and I stress the word 'if', it was shot down by the rebels, then it quite possible that the Ukrainians set it up. The aircraft was under the control of the Ukrainian air traffic control. They could deliberately have routed the aircraft over this spot, knowing full well what the consequences could be.

    Robert Battaglia, 17 July 2014 9:55pm

    "Missile destroys Malaysia Airlines plane over Ukraine and kills 295 people"

    I am not an expert, but, I think that if a plane is hit by a missile while flying, it would explode while on the air, not crash and explode on the ground, as this seems to be the case according to several videos available online. Besides, why didn't it happen before? this was not the first commercial plane flying through that area.

    Because this tragedy can be used politically by the countries at war in Ukraine, i.e. the USA and Russia, to blame each other or their minions, we will never know the truth. It might even be something planned by either side in this conflict.

    As usual, other countries pay the price, remember the Cold War? And the media is not really helping to inform, it's just trying to get more clicks on their websites.

    Abertawe Robert Battaglia , 17 July 2014 9:57pm

    I am not an expert, but, I think that if a plane is hit by a missile while flying, it would explode while on the air, not crash and explode on the ground

    Wouldn't that depend on which part of the aircraft was hit by the missile?
    Anerdsham Robert Battaglia, 17 July 2014 10:01pm

    The wreckage is spread over an area of 9 miles, that's consistent with exploding mid-air

    beanie1971 Robert Battaglia , 17 July 2014 10:36pm

    These weapons are designed to spread shrapnel and a blast wave to bring down their intended target. Most suface to air missiles are also specifically designed to detonate when they reach a certain proximity to the target and do not rely on making direct contact. They carry a relatively small expolsive charge, the majority of the missile containing the motors to drive it and the homing mechanisms. A plane as large as an airliner could in fact sustain damage and even keep flying but most likely would have received catastrophic damage to it engines or wing but potentially to any part of the fuselage. Primary explosions could well be followed by secondary or the plane may have largely retained its structural integrity and due to the aviation fuel contained in the wings exploded on impact. It is not proven yet a missile was involved but to my understanding there is nothing I have seen or has so far been described that precludes a missile strike. However I'll leave it to the experts to give a definitive answer.

    reptile0000 , 17 July 2014 10:14pm
    President of Ukraine:

    Oh somebody please shut him up. This new mouthpiece of US propaganda just next to Russia. As if he knew it even before the plane got shot down.

    They are using same tactics against Russia what Israel uses against Palestinians to justify war/sanctions. Welcome to the new cold war. They are tired of Muslims now something else had to be invented.

    rationalistx , 17 July 2014 10:15pm
    Prepare yourself for the biggest deluge of lies in recent years.

    NatBridges rationalistx, 18 July 2014 12:51am
    Yes, and prepare yourself for the fact that there won't be a proper, impartial investigation into the incident for the public to know about. A deluge of lies, indeed it will be.

    Am I being too cynical? No, I don't think so, just observed too many of these murky doings and the inevitable dodgy, white-washy 'investigations'.

    lenler44 , 17 July 2014 10:17pm

    According to the Peoples Republic of Donbass web-site, the Kiev army declared they discovered that separatists possessed surface to air missiles capable of hitting targets at 10km only 30 mins before they shot down the Malaysian airliner.

    Lion Prey , 17 July 2014 10:19pm
    I suspect foul play on behalf of the Ukraineans. They have a history for this kind of crap.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812


    Their number one buddies, the Yanks, also have a history of shooting down civilian aircraft and covering it up.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

    KingCnutCase Lion Prey, 17 July 2014 10:27pm

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007
    Ibloodylovetrains, 17 July 2014 10:19pm
    Nice to see Finnair showing so much compassion after such a terrible tragedy.

    DerekHaines, 17 July 2014 10:22pm
    Missile destroys Malaysia Airlines plane over Ukraine and kills 295 people? On what evidence? A single accusation from someone most likely to profit from it? Hardly independent, accurate journalism. Where is the second source? Are the Guardian so desperate for readers (and subscribers) that they now bend the truth in their headlines further than The Mail Online?

    jmac55, 17 July 2014 10:23pm
    I have to take issue with this piece in The Guardian about previous passenger planes shot down by missiles

    On 3 July 1988 the US warship USS Vincennes fired a surface-to-air missile to shoot down Iran Air flight 655 travelling from Bandar Abbas in Iran to Dubai. All 290 passengers, mostly Iranians on a pilgramage to Mecca, and all the crew were killed. US Navy officials later said the Vincennes' crew believed they were firing at an Iranian F14 jet fighter, the plane was off the usual commercial route and did not respond to requests to change course. Iran called it "a barbaric massacre".

    This is either a journalist who hasn't read the reports into the incident or simply sloppy journalism that smacks of continuing propaganda!

    A simple look at Wikipedia and the relevant (belated) US reports from the time tells us that:

    The attack took place in Iranian airspace, over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, and on the flight's usual flight path. The aircraft, an Airbus A300 B2-203, was destroyed by SM-2MR surface-to-air missiles fired from the Vincennes.

    The airliner was transmitting the correct transponder "squawk" code typical of a civilian aircraft and maintained English-speaking radio contact with appropriate air traffic control facilities.

    The US Government grudgingly conceded:

    When questioned in a 2000 BBC documentary, the U.S. government stated in a written answer that they believed the incident may have been caused by a simultaneous psychological condition amongst the 18 bridge crew of the Vincennes called 'scenario fulfillment', which is said to occur when persons are under pressure. In such a situation, the men will carry out a training scenario, believing it to be reality while ignoring sensory information that contradicts the scenario. In the case of this incident, the scenario was an attack by a lone military aircraft

    This is almost certainly the case, but to continue to repeat misinformation about US responsibility for the disaster is surely bad journalism...at best!

    ronco12 jmac55 , 18 July 2014 12:49am

    >> the U.S. government stated in a written answer
    >> that they believed the incident may have been
    >> caused by a simultaneous psychological condition

    i think the technical term for this action is 'trigger happy and gung ho'.

    Vizier , 17 July 2014 10:25pm

    If you go to Flightaware (http://uk.flightaware.com) and put in Malaysian Airlines MH17 you will find a record of the flights.

    Every flight since the 6th of July until yesterday was on a path further south. Today's flight is much further north.

    Yaroslav Krytsun , 17 July 2014 10:27pm
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UURxyjhmvBewJIRb2yku5EuQ&hd=1&v=BbyZYgSXdyw&app=desktop
    salvop Yaroslav Krytsun , 17 July 2014 10:34pm
    the only thing I know for sure is that the ukrainian fascist junta backed by the us world terrorists would do anything to drag europa into a war with russia
    mjb1968 salvop , 17 July 2014 10:46pm
    Because a war with Russia would leave Ukraine in SUCH a great position, right?
    Arun Paryadath , 17 July 2014 10:27pm
    Perhaps we were better off as cavemen when one could only kill one person at a time with your weapons. 295 lives and extended families forever shattered because of trigger-happy psychopaths manning the globe looking for victims.

    An afterthought; why would a commercial airplane fly over the war zone? It is an insanity as the war itself.

    elti97 Arun Paryadath, 17 July 2014 10:31pm
    I thought that sounded familiar. You combined two of the top-rated comments from the NYT comment board.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/18/world/europe/malaysian-airlines-plane-ukraine.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=Banner&module=span-ab-top-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

    hatstan, 17 July 2014 10:28pm
    Watching RT coverage. The poor saps are trying to point the finger at everyone except Russia.

    Funny that..

    Charliedaz -> hatstan , 17 July 2014 10:33pm
    And western media point the finger at nobody but Russia - strange that.

    Russian stock market hit by new sanctions over Ukraine, as ruble slides - as it happened

    The USA as the capital on neoliberal world has very powerful financial tools to hit dissenters and countries who try to pursue independent foreign policy. They also hold keys to many technologies used in Russia.
    Dmitri Petrov, analyst at Nomura, says Russia's energy giants face financial headaches, and could struggle to raise funding for new exploration programme:

    Here's a flavour of Petrov's latest research note:

    The listed firms will find it difficult to attract financing for new projects, with the Rosneft and Exxon joint exploration in Arctic being among the primary concerns. The companies will also find is much more costly to roll over their debt in hard currency, particularly the US dollar as US financial institutions are now prohibited from financing these entities.

    Rollover wise, Rosneft is most affected with $13.6bn due to be repaid this year, Gazprombank has $1bn in December, the others have no repayments this year.

    But that's not all...

    A much more severe impact comes from the signalling implications that have spillover effects for the general economy. Foreign banks in the US and Europe will become much more concerned about credit risk exposure to Russian enterprises, increasing funding costs and in some cases refusing to provide funding all together.

    There is an additional impact for Russian tradable assets, which will once again become more volatile as the market will likely read into the political headlines more carefully, taking the tail risk of third level sanctions more seriously.

    (via FT Alphaville's Markets Live)

    The oil price has been pushed up today, following predictions that Rosneft et al could struggle to raise funds for new Arctic exploration.

    A barrel of US crude oil is up $1.1 per barrel, to $102.32, while Brent crude rose $0.6 to $107.79.

    Novatek has insisted that US sanctions won't scupper its operations.

    Having seen its shares pummelled this morning, the gas producer hit back against claims that it will struggle to finance its work in the Arctic. It pledged to take the "necessary measures" to push on with its major projects.

    * - Liquid natural gas

    Novatek is partnered with France's Total, and CNPC of China, to exploit LNG reserves in the Arctic.

    Despite this pledge, though, Novatek's shares are still down almost 9%.

    Back to Russia, and European business groups are crying foul over the sanctions announced last night.

    Germany's trade association, BGA, fears that Russia will hit back with sanctions of his own, in a "spiralling" tit-for-tat scenario.

    Jens Nagel of the BGA told Reuters:

    "I wouldn't put it past President Vladimir Putin to impose retaliatory measures to save face, as was the case after the first level of sanctions."

    The Association of European Businesses, a lobby group, has claimed that 'European investors' disagree with the sanctions (a rather sweeping claim, frankly).

    It also hints that the Obama administration is being cute, with sanctions "more focused on the partners of the European businesses than on the partners of American companies."

    Vladimir Putin condemns latest US sanctions against Russia by Associated Press

    The USA caused substantial damage to Russian economy without exposing US economy to retaliation too much.
    The Guardian

    Russia's benchmark MICEX plummeted 2.6% at opening on Thursday while Russia's biggest oil company, Rosneft, was nearly 5% down.

    The new and broader US sanctions against Russia target two major energy firms, a pair of powerful financial institutions, eight weapons firms and four individuals. They are intended to end the insurgency in eastern Ukraine that is widely believed to be backed by the Kremlin.

    In televised comments on Thursday, Putin said the sanctions were "driving into a corner" relations between the two countries as well as the interests of US companies and "the long-term national interests of the US government and people".

    Putin warned Washington that the sanctions would lead to a backlash against American companies working in Russia.

    The most noticeable companies on the list are Rosneft and Russia's largest independent gas producer Novatek. Both are now barred from getting long-term loans from US entities.

    Rosneft has a multibillion-dollar deal with ExxonMobil, which among other things allowed Exxon to develop lucrative oil fields in Russia.

    "We gave this American company the right to work on the shelf," Putin said, speaking during a state visit in Brazil. "So, what, the United States does not want it to work there now?"

    Putin made no mention of the additional sanctions levied on Wednesday by the European Union, which urged the European Investment Bank to sign no new financing agreements with Moscow and was suspending operations in Russia financed by the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development.

    European nations have much closer energy and other economic ties with Russia and have not imposed as tough sanctions as the United States.

    Igor Sechin, Rosneft's CEO and close confidante of Putin, dismissed the sanctions as "unfounded, subjective and unlawful", adding that his company "had no role in the events in Ukraine".

    [Jul 16, 2014] Putin Responds: "US Sanctions Will Boomerang And Cause Very Serious Damage"

    07/16/2014 | Zero Hedge

    "Sanctions have a boomerang effect and without any doubt they will push U.S.-Russian relations into a dead end, and cause very serious damage, and it undermines the long term security interests of the US State and its people."

    "This means that U.S. companies willing to work in Russia will lose their competitiveness next to other global energy companies." Putin said the sanctions will hurt Exxon Mobil Corp which has been given the opportunity to operate in Russia. "So, do they not want it to work there? They are causing damage to their major energy companies."

    Putin said the sanctions will hurt Exxon Mobil Corp which has been given the opportunity to operate in Russia. "So, do they not want it to work there? They are causing damage to their major energy companies."

    CognacAndMencken

    I find it fascinating how a bunch of utopian libertarians at ZeroHedge now idolize the latest communist dictator from Russia. Put up a picture of Putin with a gun, and you guys literally get an erection, don't you? Reagan would be so proud of you....

    Infinite QE

    Probably because he's the only world leader who is banning GMO's, supporting families and can speak more than a single, intelligent sentence without the need for a teleprompter.

    [Jul 16, 2014] Obama Widens Sanctions Against Russia in Ukraine Face-Off By PETER BAKER

    From Reader Picks: " It seems as if our military-industrial complex is getting hungry."
    Jul 16, 2014 | NYTimes.com

    ...Among the firms targeted were some of the most prominent in Russia, including Rosneft, the state-owned oil company and largest oil producer; Gazprombank, the financial arm of Gazprom, the giant state-controlled natural gas producer; Novatek, another Russian natural gas producer that has been competing with Gazprom; and VEB, the state economic development bank.

    The administration also targeted eight state-owned defense firms; four Russian government officials, including an aide to President Vladimir V. Putin and a top official in the Federal Security Service; an oil shipping facility in Crimea, which Moscow annexed; a pro-Russian separatist leader; and the rump rebel organizations in the eastern Ukrainian cities of Donetsk and Luhansk.

    Russia quickly denounced the moves and vowed to retaliate. "We condemn those politicians and bureaucrats who are behind such actions," Sergei A. Ryabkov, the deputy foreign minister, told the Interfax news agency. Mr. Ryabkov said that Moscow would respond with countermeasures that would be "quite painful and serious."

    ... ... ...

    The new American actions will bar affected Russian companies from the American debt markets for loans over 90 days, meaning that they will still be able to conduct day-in, day-out business with overnight loans but will find it harder to finance medium- and long-term activity, officials said.

    European officials were unwilling to take parallel actions, given their far more extensive economic ties with Russia. Trade between Russia and Europe dwarfs that between Russia and the United States, and much of Europe depends on Russian energy.

    Additionally, while some European countries, particularly in the eastern region once dominated by the Soviet Union, were more supportive of tougher measures, generating a consensus among all 28 members of the European Union has been problematic.

    Selected Comments (selected from Reader Picks category)

    Nancy, Great Neck 3 hours ago

    This strikes me as senseless and self-defeating policy. Russia has been trying to bring a peaceful settlement of the unrest in Ukraine and rather than support such diplomacy, the United States finds sanctions against Russia to be desirable.

    President Obama seems intent on vilifying Russia and setting us again in a Cold War, but to what possible end? Surely these sanctions are not supportive of peace in Ukraine. I am startled and dismayed at such policy foolishness.

    Phil Greene, Houston Texas

    How tiring to read about US threats and sanctions. People are weary of this kind of nonsense. We make things worse wherever we go. War, threats of war, and sanctions. Who do we get along with with our endless list of enemies? If the US and Obama are for it, I am against it. We are not the big kid on the block and the civilized world has passed us by. We are increasingly ignored and that is good.

    nikolai burlakoff, ossining, ny

    I doubt that anyone is surprised by the US action. The whole Ukraine issue was a set-up from the beginning, given that the US supported the ascension of the current rulers. That the US went after the Russian energy market is also no surprise; it wants the European energy market. Fortunately, the BRIC agreements will help Russia, as well as, their contract with China. And, Obama is not making any friends for the US east of Poland. The next president will have quite a hole to dig the country out of.

    Deven Bhan, Madison

    We are foolishly recreating an enemy out of Russia while real dangers of Islamic turmoil and terrorism ( Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, Nigeria) continue unabated. Increased militarism of China is something which should have our attention. We have no business in looking for trouble in Russia's backyard and Ukraine's civil war.

    Adrienne Lyne, New York

    The only important factor in Ukraine is the monthly energy bill that they cannot pay to Russia. And every day they owe more and more. Neither the EU nor the US will pay it. The economic sanctions are designed to twist the arm of the Russian government so that it forgives that debt. Not in the cards.

    As to the idiotic fear mongering about Russia wanting to annex Ukraine: why would they? Ukraine's economy shrank after 1991. It did NOT develop. Its institutions are all destroyed. Russia's economy is 11 times bigger while the population is only 3 times that of Ukraine's. The reason Russia annexed Crimea is for its navy and strategic positioning. AND, Crimea was dying to be annexed (93% of the voters voted for it, which was 87% all living citizens there including infants-according to this very paper!).

    hugken, canada

    Everything the US does on the world stage turns out to be wrong and makes the problem worse. Mind your own business, stay out of world affairs and concentrate on trying to fix your own dysfunctional country.

    Sarah Flowers, Kitty Hawk, NC

    Well, if saying goodbye to the US means we get socialized education and health care, equal pay, a well-funded physical infrastructure, environmental policies informed by current science, and an overturn of Citizens, all I have to say is, "C YA!"

    vs, New York, NY

    Putin's "fault" is that he does not serve US interests in Russia. This is why US wants him out by any means, including a war in Ukraine, and regardless Putin's over 80% approval rating amongst Russians themselves.

    V.G., Hamilton, OH 2 hours ago

    Here we go. The real object in this whole overblown crisis is not to help Ukraine. The West doesn't give a damn about Ukraine. They are a basket case and huge liability. The whole game is to cut off Russia's trade with Europe. And it's working just fine. Putin can't control the adventurers in Eastern Ukraine and Poroshenko keeps pouring shells into civilian homes and saying he's a man of peace. How many times can you poke the Russian Bear and not expect him to bite back? The West may lose a hell of a lot more from this whole fiasco than they expect. Russia may be isolated but they aren't going to disappear. Their friends in China, India, Brazil and South Africa will support them. Meantime Brussels slobbers after power to become the Washington of Europe. Who the hell needs them?

    USSAmerican, Orlando

    Russia is laughing at us right now. Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa (BRICS) are forming a mini-international monetary fund that will eventually crush the US Dollar and spark hyper-inflation like the US has never seen. Obama's foreign relation policies are threatening our sovereignty while American citizens have fallen asleep. The voting public had better wake up before the November elections or else you can say good-bye to the good 'ole U.S. of A.

    Equilibrium, Russia

    What's a naivity. The USA don't care about Ukrain, the USA in general care about yourself only and their unlimited hungry for consuming. Ukrain is just a tool to seize European energy market. And.. Novorussia (Odessa, Kharkov, Donetsk, Lugansk) has never been a territory of Ukrain before Communists took over Russia in 1917. If you so hate Soviet Union, why do you accept gifts from Soviet Union (Novorussia, Crimea) ?

    mzo1918, Massachusetts

    Europe is not supporting these sanctions and with the US regime continually getting caught meddling in the affairs of their "allies," the EU is likely brokering their own deal independent of Washington. This regime has alienated Germany to the point that their will be no significant dealings between the two nations until 2017.

    Judyw, cumberland, MD

    Europe is not with the US on this one. THe Europeans are right. A lot things that are happening in E. Ukraine are the fault of Poroshenko. He is litteraly slaughtering his citizens which his artillery barrages - what is his plan to level all the cities? That is what it seems like and he needs to be stopped.

    We should not provide aid to the Ukrainian army - this is not our fight, it is their fight. We need to stay out of it. Also a lot of the Ukrainian claims are not verifiable.

    In many places you see the red and black ribbons the symbols of Right Sektor mixed in with the Army. So the army has no problem using fascists as part of the army. We should have a problem with that.

    This is a problem for the EU to deal with on their own without US interference. It is not a NATO problem and we should not be arming the Ukraine. We don't really know who they are - apparently there are neo-nazi's mized in with the army. They have plenty of wealthy oligarchs that can buy them equipment we need to stay out of it.

    As for Crimea - forget it. It is gone. We don't see to grash that fact. THe rest of Europe understand, I guess we are just a little slow to catch on. Crimea is Russian now and it should never been lett with Urkaine as we should have realized that Krhuschev's acts in 1954 were probably not legal. We simply took advantage of Yeltsein in 1991 to keep it with Urkaine. Too bad it was not Putin who negotiated in 1991.

    Howard Kaplan, Belmont Ma

    Ukraine is part of a US policy to box in Russia and control the oil pipelines to Europe. Control the Euro Asian midland and you control the world. Ukraine is part of that process. A senseless policy but Russia hatred runs deep and long.

    rusalka, NY

    So I guess those idealists who fought against the British at the end of the 18th century were also not rational when they fought and died against a powerful and corrupt entity with the hope of starting life anew in a democratic and free society. I suppose you would rather see Ukrainians just roll over and let Putin do whatever he wants to them.

    These sanctions against Russia are to help Ukraine choose its own path to economic and social independence and prosperity. And if you think these economic sanctions aren't having an impact on Russia then I think that economics degree must not be worth the paper it was printed on.

    William Verick, Eureka, California

    But what if a few rockets stray from Ukraine into Russia proper? Will the U.S. then think it justified that Russia "defends itself" by dropping white phosphorous and cluster munitions on residential neighborhoods in Kiev? If Russia tells the residents of Kiev that they should leave town because Russia is going to destroy Kiev from the air? If Russia plans an invasion of Ukraine in order to capture and or kill the Ukraine's leadership because Russia holds them personally responsible for the horrible rockets that were fired from Ukraine into Russia?

    Will the U.S. use it's Security Council veto power to protect Russia from any sanctions votes?

    BillnAZ, Mesa, AZ

    The sanctions assume that the US dollar will continue to carry international clout. China, Russia and other nations are reviewing and revamping their finsncial systems to provide another internationally accepted currency. The more the US pressures these countries with sanctions, the higher the probability that the US Dollar will loose its luster. The USD and the EU will devalue when the Asian (also to include Russia) and Middle Eastern oil countries establish another accepted currency. They will be able to back this currency with hard assets as opposed to the US method of printing more paper.

    Alexander K., Minnesota

    This "escalation" is merely domestic US politics. It boosts the appearance of toughness to be anti-Russian. It also provides support for Russian own nationalists and xenophobes. From a foreign policy point of view the US really screwed up on Russia ever since the USSR implosion. Instead of building a better world, we divide and perpetuate conflicts.

    It is absurd to think that Russia is going to give up on Ukraine. Ukraine is home to the cradle of Russian history, or at least that is the historical narrative. A third of its population speaks Russian as their native language. Russians and Ukrainians are widely intermarried and intermixed. Gorbachev had Russian and Ukrainian parents, as an example.

    We're butting into a Civil War, and it is never a good idea to get caught up in other people's domestic disputes. Russia and Ukraine are in it for the long-term. The US has a habit of short-term involvements and retreat.


    jamil simaan, beirut

    What exactly does the US government want Russia to do? Although Russia is certainly involved in Ukraine's conflict, It is difficult to ascertain exactly how much it is capable of changing the course of the conflict. But no matter how much input it has, Moscow is never going to get the pro-Moscow camp to put down their arms and stop fighting if the pro-West camp keeps calling for revenge and cleansing.

    Ukraine is the birthplace of the Russian people, and it is also a huge mess of decay, corruption, and poverty. For those reasons, I fully believe that 1) Russia very much values peace and cooperation with Ukraine and 2) Russia does not want to be responsible for Ukraine and will not annex it.

    I interpret the pressure that the US government has been putting on Russia as a belligerent reaction to Lavrov making a fool of Kerry over Syria and a general lack of respect that Russians have for American efforts in the Middle East and China. Perhaps the Russians have been too arrogant in the way they've treated the US, but it is folly for the US to so deliberately attack Russia in such a sensitive issue.

    Goresh, Brisbane

    Why is the U S not imposing economic sanctions on other countries, such as Sweden, for failing to stem the tide of arms and fighters into Ukraine?

    Mikael Skillt is a Swedish sniper, with seven years' experience in the Swedish Army and the Swedish National Guard. He is currently fighting with the Azov Battalion, a pro-Ukrainian volunteer armed group in eastern Ukraine.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28329329

    Is it because they are fascist groups fighting to support the U S sanctioned Ukraine government?

    Adrienne Lyne, New York

    wrong. According to the American officials who were involved in Russia when Putin first took the office of the presidency, "knives were drawn right away because he (Putin) did not play ball." Read Stephen Cohen's book "Soviet Fates and Lost Alternatives." ((http://www.amazon.com/Soviet-Fates-Lost-Alternatives-Stalinism-ebook/dp/...

    AreWeThereYet, Pittstown, NJ

    Just like the talking point in 2008 when Georgian attacks on Ossetia were countered by Russian intervention there is no apparent desire for annexation of whole dysfunctional countries. Only adjustments to those regions clamoring for independence (or reunification) from the arbitrary political borders created by the sudden breakup of the Soviet Union. Lest we forget, Georgia remains an independent state despite the dire hyperventilation in our media at that time and hush up since then.

    If Russia wanted to invade and annex Ukraine by force it could have done so 2 months ago. Instead it is waiting for the current government to either fulfill it's public promise to seek compromise or further discredit itself by killing civilians and not negotiating greater autonomy.

    Alex, Moscow

    The decision of Mr. Obama is regrettable and strategically short-sighted at that. The economies of the Russia and China structurally complement each other. These sanctions in effect push Russia right into China's embrace. With giant Russian "gas station" at its disposal, China will surely become a much more formidable opponent to US power. While I do not care about the perspective for US, I find that for Russia the role of such "gas station" is not very appealing. This is a lose-lose game.

    "Disgusted", Texas

    I'm confused - we are upping sanctions (EU not so supportive) against Russia for attempting to get back territory they consider part of Russia - while we have been supporting Israel with money and arms (for years) as they establish settlements in Palestine! Is there a disconnect here?

    Paul Cohen, Hartford CT

    Who are we to sanction any country for military intervention?

    U.S. SOF's are in 134 countries (FY 2013).

    We do know SOF raids have occurred in Yemen, Somilia, Libya, Pakistan, Sudan and Iraq (after official end of war).

    Armed Drones have been used in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia and Libya

    "Without a clear picture of where the military's covert forces are operating and what they are doing, Americans may not even recognize the consequences of and blowback from our expanding secret wars as they wash over the world. But if history is any guide, they will be felt - from Southwest Asia to the Mahgreb, the Middle East to Central Africa, and, perhaps eventually, in the United States as well.

    "… with Special Operations missions kept under tight wraps, Americans have little understanding of where their troops are deployed, what exactly they are doing, or what the consequences might be down the road. As retired Army Colonel Andrew Bacevich, professor of history and international relations at Boston University, has noted, the utilization of Special Operations forces during the Obama years has decreased military accountability, strengthened the "imperial presidency," and set the stage for a war without end. "In short," he wrote at TomDispatch, "handing war to the special operators severs an already too tenuous link between war and politics; it becomes war for its own sake."

    http://www.salon.com/2014/01/16/americas_secret_military_is_a_massive_ti...

    [Jul 16, 2014] US significantly escalates sanctions against Russia over Ukraine

    The Guardian

    Barack Obama announced a significant escalation in sanctions against Russia on Wednesday, with measures targeting some of the country's largest energy corporations and banks as punishment for Moscow's alleged continued support for Ukrainian separatists.

    The US president said the intensification of sanctions, which includes the freezing of assets belonging to defence companies and a handful of senior Russian officials, was intended to remind Moscow "that its actions in Ukraine have consequences".

    Obama said the measures had been coordinated with European leaders, who late on Wednesday were meeting in Brussels to agree on a separate package of action aimed at nudging Russian president Vladimir Putin toward a new stance in Ukraine. The EU package, which could include restrictions on lending for investments projects in Russia, were not expected to go as far as those announced in Washington.

    "Along with our allies, with whom I've been coordinating closely over the last several days and weeks, I've repeatedly made it clear that Russia must halt the flow of weapons of fighters across the border into Ukraine, that Russia must urge separatists to release hostages, and support a ceasefire, that Russia needs to pursue internationally mediated talks and agreed to meaningful monitors on the border. I have made this clear to Mr Putin," Obama said in a televised statement from the White House.

    He added: "So far Russia has failed to take any of the steps that I mentioned. In fact Russia's support for the separatists, and violations of Ukraine's sovereignty, has continued."


    The sanctions announced by Obama, and explained in more detail to reporters by senior administration officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity, fall short of targeting entire swathes of the Russian economy, an option of last resort that Washington and its EU partners believe should be held in reserve, to be used in the event of more overt military intervention by Moscow.

    However the new package of sanctions goes further than the travel bans and asset freezes the administration announced in the wake of pro-Russian militia taking control of Crimea in March, a move widely condemned by the west but followed, weeks later, by pro-Russian separatists moving to control cities in the east of Ukraine.

    The conflict has continued unabated since, with sporadic fighting and casualties among both separatists and Ukrainian military forces. The election in May of Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko had yielded hope of a peace settlement, and the US and its allies have praised the new regime in Kiev's efforts to seek a negotiated end to the conflict with separatists.

    Last month Ukraine signed the EU association agreement – the partnership deal that the country's former president, Viktor Yanukovych, under pressure from Moscow, held back from signing, prompting the violent protests in Kiev that triggered the 2014 conflict.

    In recent weeks, US officials have solidified their view that, while making some gestures toward mollifying the conflict, Putin has allowed the ostensibly internal Ukrainian conflict to continue while global attention has switched to the turmoil in the Middle East.


    seen2empires, 16 July 2014 10:55pm

    American Hypocrisy 101.

    After Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Egypt, all the color coups at the Russia's borders, Cuba, Argentina, etc., etc. , etc. they are still have the nerve...

    O'Bomber is delusional.

    Zoltán Koskovics -> seen2empires, 16 July 2014 10:59pm

    I think he is incompetent. He leaves foreign policy to others. They are delusional.

    freeandfair, 16 July 2014 11:17pm

    Lol, how convenient for the US - imposing sanctions on their competition. Russia and the US compete head to head in the weapons and energy markets. Of course, there is no self-interest involved here on the US side. It is all for freedom and democracy !

    garrant , 16 July 2014 11:43pm
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgxwavacDH0


    Interrogation | Soldier from "Artemovsk" battalion tasked with torturing

    "Where did you take the bodies after torturing them to death?"
    -We took them near the lake and dumped them there.
    "Did you bury them, or did you dump them in the lake?"
    -Depends...

    In comments read the complete transcript by David Stickney...

    prutin -> garrant
    Again a video produced in a garage in Donetsk?
    Metronome151 -> prutin , 17 July 2014 12:10am
    Produced no doubt by the same people who bought you the fictitious crucifixion of a three year old carried by RT that was hastily pulled as being far too transparent a lie.

    The Chekist Junta is getting a little desperate and unsubtle with its propaganda.

    Zoltán Koskovics , 17 July 2014 12:06am
    So back to the thingy I wrote a million times, and really should have just saved on a notepad to copy/paste here.
    There will not be any real sanctions. The ECB went to a negative rate. The USA is one month away from recession. They can't afford it.
    Of course there might be ''sanctions'', but that is just a hissy fit.
    On the last attempts to sanction Russia, here is a fun fact: today the Moscow stock exchange and the ruble trade higher than they did before the first day of ''sanctions''. That is why the quotation marks are necessary.
    Metronome151 -> Zoltán Koskovics , 17 July 2014 12:14am
    Isolated statistics like that are somewhat meaningless.

    When the access to credit lines for the likes of Rosneft and Gazprombank are cut off in tandem with the continuation of capital flight the effect will be

    kenalexruss 17 July 2014 12:16am

    One thing Russia learned during the Czar and Soviet eras was to scrap together and survive. I'm sure sanctions cause drama but not to the tune of capitulation. Hunker down America, it's gonna take awhile for this to work...
    HansZandvliet, 17 July 2014 12:27am
    Go ahead with sanctions. The American ones are irrelevant, by the way. I mean the European sanctions, but there's no comment possible on that parallel article.
    Russia is patient for now, but can strike back terribly by next winter. To the tune of this old song: it's gonna be a long cold christmas without you (ehm, Russian gas for Europe, that is).

    If Europe wants to shoot itself in the foot (with a bazooka), they should push forward with sanctions against Russia. The US might be glad as well to eliminate an economic rival.

    PeterSchmidt -> HansZandvliet , 17 July 2014 12:30am

    The US will sooner or later devour Europe as well. It cannot stop. Greed all the way till the tomb.

    Victor Chan , 17 July 2014 12:33am
    Hahahaah...he couldn't get the EU to approve unilateral sanctions against Russia. Instead, he is settling for more selective sanctions. Yeah, I know, is kind of hard to demand all EU states and all EU companies to stop doing business with Russia. After all, EU member states aren't your traditional socialist regimes with a centralized, state owned economy. You can't just say stop doing with Russia and all businesses would comply.

    Also, EU recognizes that any unilateral sanction noncompliance would result in legal liabilities of each EU member state and each EU company. America will sanction them. Eric Holder would fine them and to ban them from doing business in the US. No single EU state would ever put their own economy and businesses in such a situation. Yeah, Obama, keeps on lying......

    [Jul 16, 2014] Fears remain after Ukraine's rebels flee Sloviansk By Steven Rosenberg

    BBC News

    Back outside the police station, I notice a flag that wasn't there before. It's red and black: the banner of the Ukrainian ultranationalist group Right Sector. That will make some people feel deeply uncomfortable in this mainly Russian-speaking town.

    [Jul 15, 2014] 'I was a separatist fighter in Ukraine' by Mumin Shakirov for RFE/RL

    Comment by MyDogLikesPorridge "This Article originally appeared in Russian on RFE/RL". Who are RFE/RL? From Wikipedia: "They were founded as an anti-communist news source in 1949 by the National Committee for a Free Europe, as part of a large-scale Psychological Operation during the Cold War. RFE/RL received funds from the Central Intelligence Agency until 1972.[5] During the earliest years of Radio Free Europe's existence, the CIA and the U.S. Department of State issued broad policy directives, and a system evolved where broadcast policy was determined through negotiation among the CIA, the U.S. State Department, and RFE staff"
    "RFE/RL no longer receives direct funding from the CIA. They now fall under the Broadcasting Board of Governors. The Broadcasting Board of Governors (BBG) is an independent federal agency of the United States government. It was previously a department within the United States Information Agency."

    "In short, how would you like your CIA propaganda piece, rare or well done?"

    Jul 15, 2014 | The Guardian
    Vladimir Makarenko -> PaperEater , 15 July 2014 1:54pm
    This is the face of war - bloody mess. What the good guy was expecting? Everything well organized and according to a well thought plan? Every war is a story of grave mistakes, the only question which side will screw up more. But the volunteers were straightforwardly warned that the chances to come out alive are slim.
    And also naivite of the initial fights on the side of rebels that the war will be "gentlemen" one, - "they will not bomb a new just built airport". They now bomb everything in sight. Reminds me how Georgian tanks were entertaining themselves sending shells in the basements of apartment buildings in Tshinvali where Ossetian civilians were hiding.
    Well, now everything goes - a la guerre comme a la guerre.

    DmitryF -> Vladimir Makarenko, 15 July 2014 5:03pm

    I wonder what they will do when they win this war? Do they have enough resources to rebuild the houses, industries, infrastructure etc.? How are they going to ensure loyalty of the population who had their life ruined by destruction of their properties and deaths of friends and relatives? I guess most of refugees won't want to go back. The place will be quite empty, unless they will introduce some sort of re-population programme as Iosif Stalin did in various places. What will happen to all those privately funded battalions, will they become unemployed with guns and the experience to kill?

    Vladimir Makarenko DmitryF, 15 July 2014 7:24pm

    Kiev & Co will not win this war - because they just cannot - there is no real ground for such outcome - army doesn't want to really fight, they can use heavy artillery staying several km away from rebel positions but that's about it.

    The private bandit armies of Kolomoisky and Right Sector if do anything then it is stirring a hatred among locals towards Kiev & Co and provide the rebels with unconditional support- moral and by men. Can the war go in a guerrilla mode, I think it is possible but not probable. And in the more bloody way Kiev will try to terrify the population the more local and out of Russia resistance it will generate.

    They really are stupid in Kiev, Donbass successfully stayed during the whole WWII a guerrilla resistance center to such experts on that as Nazis were. As I see it the only way today out of this for Kiev to save face and save what is left there from "Ukraine" is ceasefire and to take a seat at a negotiation table.

    The problem is also with the rebels - contrary to the Western agit prop about Russian conspiracy - there is no undisputed authority on the rebel side, they try to organize themselves but it is a slow and painful process. As always a problem with popular uprising - figuratively - each city block has its own unit and a commander, to put them all under an umbrella of centralized command is very difficult. But it looks it is happening.

    Urobulos Vladimir Makarenko, 15 July 2014 9:24pm

    The only way they could "win" is if majority of the population don't turn against them. If even 10% are hostile enough to support armed struggle, even after the fall of the DPR, they might end up with a permanent IRA style insurrection, but on a much wider scale than anything that happened in Northern Ireland.

    I might be misunderstanding, but are you suggesting that the DNR can win in an open military struggle? No matter how bad the Ukrainian army and National guard perform, it seems their advantage is way too great for DNR to hold out in the long run. Not without open Russian support that doesn't seem to be coming. I was under the impression that the fall of Donetsk and Lugansk is a question of how long DPR forces can delay the inevitable.

    I know that both sides claim they will get their inevitable win soon enough, but surely by now it seems obvious the separatists can only hope for the Russian army to intervene. Not that destroying the DPR would mean stability, peace and prosperity.

    Vladimir Makarenko -> Urobulos, 16 July 2014 12:20am

    The situation is too dynamic to try to predict outcome - at least on the side of rebels a serious consolidation is happening and their numbers are growing by an hour, especially after UA bombing and shelling towns and villages around Lugansk and Donetsk. The paramilitaries of Kolomoisky and Right Sector are walking dead there - if anything they may only hope not to get captured and save the bullet to die easy way.

    UA can probably wipe out all resistance around the both cities but it has no chance to successfully go into the urban fight. All recent military history points to this: the US basically had to wipe out Falluja - and this is very "easy" low level (2-3 stores max) town.

    The more desperate situation becomes the more qualified/unqualified personnel will flow from Russia and in this case Russian government definitely will be indifferent to flow of arms from God forgotten army depots full of maybe not state of art but capable weapons. It will definitely control this flow so that there were no "leaks" during delivery to the rebels - it is a Pandora box - once started these weapons can easily find a way to the internal Russian black market.
    I doubt very much that Russian Army direct interference, the max what Russia may do is announce "no flight" zone over the rebels. But it can give a very important if not critical help with intelligence: rebels are much more mobile and hit and run can effectively disrupt UA operational capabilities. Especially that in the troops there is no moral imperative to fight - rather the opposite.

    All they want is to get the hell out of there. This is why rebels after taking another "POWs" they just redress them in civilian and send back home. It is a different story with paramilitaries especially with Western ultra right who joined their ranks.

    Urobulos -> Vladimir Makarenko, 16 July 2014 12:36am

    You're painting the picture of an imminent collapse of the Ukrainian Army. How does that fit with the string of cities slipping out of rebel control? Though every city they've fought in until now is small when compared to Donetsk.

    Neve Rendell , 15 July 2014 5:54am
    Funny this guy says most of the fighters were Russian, the Brit journalist said there were no Russian fighters. And no Chechens

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BVPtiwdrlI

    You have to wonder who is telling the truth. At least they agree there are no actual Russian forces operating in Ukraine.

    MyDogLikesPorridge, 15 July 2014 6:25am

    "This Article originally appeared in Russian on RFE/RL".
    Who are RFE/RL? From Wikipedia:

    "They were founded as an anti-communist news source in 1949 by the National Committee for a Free Europe, as part of a large-scale Psychological Operation during the Cold War. RFE/RL received funds from the Central Intelligence Agency until 1972.[5] During the earliest years of Radio Free Europe's existence, the CIA and the U.S. Department of State issued broad policy directives, and a system evolved where broadcast policy was determined through negotiation among the CIA, the U.S. State Department, and RFE staff"

    RFE/RL no longer receives direct funding from the CIA. They now fall under the Broadcasting Board of Governors. The Broadcasting Board of Governors (BBG) is an independent federal agency of the United States government. It was previously a department within the United States Information Agency.

    In short, how would you like your CIA propaganda piece, rare or well done?

    MrTemecula -> MyDogLikesPorridge, 15 July 2014 6:37am

    RFE? Radio Free Europe!

    RFE/RL states that its mission is to serve as a surrogate free press in countries where a free press is banned by the government or not fully established. It maintains 20 local bureaus, but governments criticised often attempt to obstruct the radios' activities through a range of tactics, including extensive jamming, shutting down local re-broadcasting affiliates, or finding legal excuses to close down offices.[65] In many of these countries, RFE/RL and similar broadcasters provide more reliable domestic news than local sources.

    Still fighting the good fight. RT take note.

    nic nic , 15 July 2014 6:37am
    On the background of the fact that John Kerry "recommends" to other countries to do the recount after the elections in Afghanistan that Victoria Nuland with Geoffrey R. Pyatt decide who will head Ukraine - this article looks just pathetic))
    All this fabricated obscenely.
    With the evidence everything is very bad - it's just not.

    Marco Franchetti one of the honest journalists, it is a pity that such today in the West, very little.

    Urobulos nic nic , 15 July 2014 3:18pm
    Franchetti describes his own personal experience. So does Gasparyan. They haven't conducted a survey of 100% of the people fighting for separatists. It is very much possible that both accounts are true.
    Bakaro Urobulos 15 July 2014 11:36pm
    They form local units and volunteer units separately, which explains difference in their experience. In Slavyansk, for example, most fighters were locals, and their number grew by factor of 10 since the Kiev started to bomb the city and children and females were evacuated to Russia.
    Jeremn andresh 15 July 2014 10:50am
    There are volunteers, I was reading about an Afghan who volunteered to serve in eastern Ukraine for the federalists, but I think it is going too far to call them mercenaries (although Yanukovich could be supplying money).

    I'd be cautious about extracting too much from this, especially as it is RFE reporting (am I the only one who is uneasy that their reporting is being passed off as news), as there is as much evidence, if not more, that of the 15,000 rebels the vast majority are from the Donetsk region.

    AlanGF 15 July 2014 8:07am
    Do I beleive this....no. No photos of him actually in Ukraine, just in a wood that could have been anywhere. Reminds me very much of the claimed lookalikes to prove russian involvement which faded out when shown to be entirely false proganda from the states.
    Zoltán Koskovics 15 July 2014 8:49am
    Guardian you need to stop cooperating with radio free Europe. It is shameful for a newspaper of your stature.
    VladimirM 15 July 2014 10:01am
    So, his turning point was what happened in Odessa. Apparently, for many others as well.

    Will be some interviews taken with foreigners from Kiev side? What was their reasoning?

    StickyBastard VladimirM 15 July 2014 10:23am
    Will be some interviews taken with foreigners from Kiev side? What was their reasoning?

    Most probably their identification with the actions and policies of the SS Divisions in WWII.

    Robert Sandlin , 15 July 2014 10:19am
    Here are a couple of reports from the war front:

    13.07.13, Posted by militia.

    "In the following incident occurred Georgievka: natsgvardeytsy shot a 6-year-old child. After that locals armed with hunting rifles and other small arms and attacked the punishers.

    Destroyed about fifteen fascist, they left the village and went into the militia. Now, local residents of nearby communities fear of punitive action. "

    14.07.14, Posted by a resident of Kharkov.

    "Today talked with an old friend. She retired. Former rentgenlaboranta. She never did not believe me about the situation in the Donbas. But today ran in terror. She knew what was going on in the 28th hospital faded. And as familiar - a former paramedic and knows many in the industry, the staff was honest with her.

    Refrigerators clogged with corpses. Only that's not all. According to the medical staff at the hospital-based groups have been formed on duty. Explain their problem. Littered phones. All phones belong to the dead. If any phone call or sms comes, they must answer sms Coy style "All good fight, I can not call.

    Do not come, I have everything. "All employees are afraid to send a message to mothers that their children were killed because they were promised that for one message to be killed. My friend is not prone to hysteria, and indeed for the United urkainu. "Was . Unless ran screaming in terror.

    Mother read SMS that all is well, when their children for many days lie on the cold shelves morgue.
    Similar information came from Dnepropetrovsk, Odessa, Chernihiv. "

    Jeremn Robert Sandlin , 15 July 2014 10:59am
    Some 400 people have been arrested for "separatism" in Kharkov since February. My guess there have been thousands more detained in other cities.
    edwardrice ijustwant2say , 15 July 2014 11:32am
    Have a look at the stories/news items published on the RFE/RL website.

    On Ukraine it looks like it's US state department propaganda. Which it is.

    And check this out BRICS Summit Opens In Brazil

    ''A three-day summit of the so-called BRICS nations is set to open in Brazil. ''

    ''so-called'' ? so-called means something that is not correct.

    The BRICS nations are ''so-called'' because their cooperation is not approved by the US.

    The whole ''news'' site reeks of Sate Department propaganda.

    [Jul 15, 2014] Ukrainian president blames Russian troops after transport plane shot down

    Some participants in the discussion have pretty telling profile. For example Zaporozhye: Joined: 13 May 2014, 329 comments for the last 30days; 1K comments since registration; list of commented articles represent almost complete selection any anything connected with Ukraine and Russia... Similar profile has another prolific commenter prutin registered Jun 25, 2014 and posted 428 comments since registration (more then 20 comments a day on average). Commented articles also can serve as excellent guide to anything published by guardian about Ukraine. Max number of comments per article -- 78.
    Jul 15, 2014 | The Guardian

    Alphysicist, 14 July 2014 6:49pm

    Unfortunately, Uncle Sam is trying to provoke Russia into military action, so that after the presstitute media can complain about Russian aggression.

    Actually, even a full Russian invasion of the separatist regions and Odessa would be justified. There have been anti-Russian pogroms carried out by the so-called Ukrainian military there.

    However, it may be costly, given the western media egging the populace against Russia.

    Robert Looren de Jong -> Alphysicist, 14 July 2014 6:57pm

    could you explain how the us is provoking war as far as i have seen they are not providing weapons to any separatist or none of their citizens are taking over government buildings

    Alphysicist Robert -> Looren de Jong, 14 July 2014 7:01pm

    I suppose the $5billion the US gave to the undemocratic government of Poroshenko oligarch is not really support. Nor is the appearance of aircraft carriers close to Odessa on the Black Sea.

    BTW, where can one read that Russia provided weapons to separatists? (It would be justified, actually, but I have not read this anywhere yet.)

    TheRussianGirl -> Robert Looren de Jong, 14 July 2014 7:09pm

    So I suppose when the Head of CIA of the USA visits Kiev it is okey, isn't it? All those people like Joe Biden, John MacCaine, they are simple advisors, aren't they? Do they advice how to plant corn in Ukraine?

    Сергей Коломойцев -> TheCountOfMontenegro, 14 July 2014 8:14pm

    At the moment there is no fact that Russia invaded Ukraine. But there are many facts that the military of the United States (mercenaries) are present in the Ukraine (see media of Germany). Among the rebels there are people from Russia, Belarus, but this is a private initiative. As the International Brigades in Spain in the years 1936-39.

    Bakaro -> Bullybyte, 15 July 2014 12:12am

    I think what really is happening, is that large part of Kiev troops has been trapped along the Russian border between anti-Kiev forces and Russia, south from Lugansk. They are effectively cut off from any supply, and running out of ammunition. Officers are calling their wives asking for help! The anti-Kiev forces are now hoping to get their hand on tons of Ukrainian tanks and etc, which might change the war in their favor.

    Kiev troops got trapped due to stupidity of their superiors. In fact, many observers predicted that this is going to happen, but Poroshenko was too eager to get all border under control. So, now Kiev has nothing else to do but claim Russia involvement, hoping to get help from the West. Also, distracting Ukrainians from Kiev's own military mistakes.

    wombatman -> Zaporozhye, 14 July 2014 9:40pm

    Sorry Zaporozhye, I really find your claims to be incredulous.

    Since you joined CiF quite recently, you have made a very large number of comments, all concerning Ukraine or Russia and always biased against Russia, with not even the mildest criticism of Kiev or any of the ultranationalist groups backing them.

    There has not been one non-Russian/non-Ukrainian story you have ever commentated on, despite your prolific posting rate.

    But then since your user name is also a city in Ukraine, you have hardly made a secret of where you are based.

    Worried9876, 14 July 2014 7:02pm

    Particular controversy was caused over the weekend when Channel One aired a report claiming that the Ukrainian army had crucified a three-year-old boy in the central square of Slavyansk, a rebel stronghold recaptured by Ukrainian forces.

    Nothing would surprise anyone from chocolate man.

    Robert Looren de Jong -> Worried9876, 14 July 2014 7:06pm

    and you talk about kiev propaganda even russian journalist has been outraged by such a clear propaganda fabrication
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2691617/Russian-state-TV-sparks-outrage-claiming-Ukraine-army-CRUCIFIED-three-year-old-boy-Kremlin-threatens-military-strikes-neighbour.html

    NegativeCamber -> Worried9876, 14 July 2014 7:13pm

    Ahhh good old propaganda.

    Alice Ponomareva -> Worried9876, 14 July 2014 7:17pm

    I watched the interview with her, not in TV but like all , in internet.

    She is Western Ukrainian, starts from it, and she spoke heavily Ukrainised Russian. She explained she has quarreled with her mother who stayed back home in Western Ukraine when she moved to Slavyansk. I think what she said - was in reply to her Mum, to who she continues to prove her choice of habitat place.

    I don't know is it true or not, what she described.

    She said what she said, and there can be no doubt that the children with her are hers, and that she is a run-away from the war in Slavyansk, crossed the border to us and settled in the camp.

    What do you want of Russian TV interviewing refugees?

    To go to Slavyansk first and check, before reporting it on large screens? Yes, would be reasonable and honest, to do this. A small reminder Russian TV lost 2 journalists recently in Slavyansk and 1 more before there. Not an easy place to go and check, can be minus another TV crew.

    Сергей Коломойцев -> Worried9876, 14 July 2014 8:50pm

    Similar information reported refugee from Ukraine. She said that she is see that National Guard fighters raped 6-year-old daughter of the rebel. Her mother was forced to watch. After were killed. While this fact is no one has investigated and confirm. If it was - it's awful. I hope that it is still a rumor. If any of these facts are confirmed - will be a social explosion.

    Beckow -> NegativeCamber, 14 July 2014 9:34pm

    CNN is still digging for the "100,000's of Albanians" murdered and dumped in the Kosovo mine shaft. And the infants in incubators in Kuwait.

    So yes, there is always some propaganda. I am really not sure who is worse. Or better at it. But it would be ok for westerners to occasionally look at their own "free" media.....or is that just different because you say so?

    NegativeCamber -> Beckow, 14 July 2014 10:30pm

    So yes, there is always some propaganda. I am really not sure who is worse. Or better at it. But it would be ok for westerners to occasionally look at their own "free" media.....or is that just different because you say so?

    That's right, deflect the issue onto something totally unrelated that happened decades ago, well done.

    Beckow -> NegativeCamber, 15 July 2014 12:31am

    You are the one deflecting. There are plenty of current examples of western media propaganda.

    And it is related. You can't preach one thing to others, do propaganda at home, and expect for anyone to take you seriously. We are not 5-year olds....

    spartacus28, 14 July 2014 7:08pm

    There is evidence of this happening with the baby in the form of a testimony made on film by a mother who saw this happen and escaped.

    Within the nazi block there seems to be a very nasty demonic element at work which has alraedy showed itself in odessa.

    If nazism is not stamped out quickly it can develop into more sinister threads and unfortunatly this is what we are seeing.

    Zaporozhye -> spartacus28, 14 July 2014 7:28pm

    There are no evidence because this never happened. The person who gave interview was born in West Ukraine and then moved to Slavyansk. Her husband fight along separatists, they have three nice looking kids. She repeated this made up story. The story was posted on page of Dugin (Russian Nazi who is close to Putin) several days before she said it happened. She said there were many people in the plaza. Then where is video? Where is picture?
    And last question, but not the lease, how could anybody, including you, believe such nonsense?
    If you are from Russia, please talk to your grandparents, they might still remember how to read between lines and how to resists propaganda. Peace to you and your family, we all desperately need it.

    MrTemecula, 14 July 2014 7:11pm

    Particular controversy was caused over the weekend when Channel One aired a report claiming that the Ukrainian army had crucified a three-year-old boy in the central square of Slavyansk, a rebel stronghold recaptured by Ukrainian forces.

    RT is bad, but it's not as bad Channel One. Putin-run media makes Fox News look almost respectable.

    spartacus28 -> MrTemecula, 14 July 2014 7:22pm

    After what we have seen in detail on facebook the crimes that were commited in odessa crimes which included chidren and pregnant women killed in the most horrible fashion i think its likely that elements within the right sector and the like are capable of this type of crime.

    ElvisInWales -> MrTemecula, 14 July 2014 8:05pm

    At least RT is allowing comments on what is happening inside Gaza, whilst our own MSM has shut down comments on the subject which in itself speaks volumes.

    Perhaps our MSM still think people are gullible enough to believe what is happening in Ukraine is as reported here and other media here in the UK.

    Well guess what? its not washing and people here are far more fearful of Ukrainians coming over here and are sick of the way the EU has behaved over the whole affair, hence why UKIP made massive gains in recent EU elections here, people want out, Ukraine and EU behaviour has turned the stomaches of most of the electorates inside the EU and we all want out.

    MFrenchman -> MrTemecula, 15 July 2014 12:46am

    No, RT doesn't blatantly play to dumb gung hoism and use absurd fiery graphics and audio to manipulate its viewers. RT is a thousand times better than Fox, the two are not in the same solar system.

    MrTemecula -> MFrenchman, 15 July 2014 3:02am

    Oh, really?

    Check this report from RT called the Truthseeker.

    False Flag. Ukraine snipers. Balogna rail station. NATO. CIA.
    Thumping music. Fiery Graphics. The only difference between Fox News and RT is the politics.

    stephannoir, 14 July 2014 7:13pm

    respectfully i suggest that poroshenko sprouts unadulterated lies and rubbish…

    if putin had sent in his army offices ….then the so called separatists would be at the gates of kiev….and not the western ukraine troops at the gates of donetsk…

    to poroshenko i will say make hay while the sun shines….putin is not going to be cooperative and passive ….forever…he is waiting for the petro dollar to take a hit…which i suggest is going to occur in october this year….come winter there will be a far different putin….than the mr nice guy we have now….

    you either make a deal with putin now…..or you lose eastern ukraine forever….or worse putin takes you down next year with the assistance of the western ukrainians as the starve and freeze to death….when nil zip nada help financial comes from a economically collapsing eu and america….

    spartacus28, 14 July 2014 7:14pm

    Europes biggest nuclear power station is in donetsk and if the weather conditions are not favourable it radioactive dust could be blown over the uk in hours so i think everybody needs to sit up straight and realise the dangers that lie in this silly game of geopolitics with russia.
    Britains interess no longer need to be under the shadow of crazy neo-con freaks over the pond as they know they are further away from the action.
    WAKE UP

    BMWAlbert -> spartacus28, 14 July 2014 7:44pm

    Too strong a westerly (Atlantic zonal) in UK for this, but for Central Europe with a high pressure system in Central RU (like in summer 2010) yes, this is something to think about. There have been many concerns voiced over UA nuclear plant safety since the Maian, just another one of the many gifts of the Great Maidan to humanity in addition to advances like the refinement of 240 mm artillery bombardment against residential areas.

    BMWAlbert -> spartacus28 , 14 July 2014 7:44pm

    Too strong a westerly (Atlantic zonal) in UK for this, but for Central Europe with a high pressure system in Central RU (like in summer 2010) yes, this is something to think about. There have been many concerns voiced over UA nuclear plant safety since the Maidan, just another one of the many gifts of the Great Maidan to humanity in addition to advances like the refinement of 240 mm artillery bombardment against residential areas.

    Urobulos -> spartacus28, 14 July 2014 10:31pm

    You are crazy. Even if someone blows up the reactor, there is no possibility of significant radioactive fallout in the UK.

    Of course damage coudl be possibly disastrous to people living closer to Donetsk, but you prefer to TURN THE SCAREMONGERING UP TO ELEVEN 11111 so it's probably just best to take whatever you say with a massive pinch of salt.

    BMWAlbert -> Urobulos, 14 July 2014 10:51pm

    No, I have seen quite a few articles on concern for UA reactor safety from different POV. The last item in date was from only 3 days ago (Ukrainian news is cited here by TASS):

    RIVNE, July 11. /ITAR-TASS/. Ukraine's Security Service will reinforce security at the Rivne nuclear power plant due to possible sabotage, the Ukrainian media report first deputy head of the Security Service's division in the region, Yuri Petrunyak, as saying.
    The official said the nuclear power plant was very close to the border between Ukraine and Belarus.

    You could find scores of stories along similar lines, and not just with sabotage, also lapses in general safety routine. UA has a non-stellar nuclear safety record over the long-term, there have been incidents that might be described as more than minor issues, like Chernobyl.

    Oleg Volkov, 14 July 2014 7:22pm

    Regarding that "convtroversy", many Russian, Polish, Czech and other archives about UPA-UNSO cleansings and massacres (that's grandfathers of current nazi movement in Ukraine) list much more horrifying things here. Yes, including crucifixion, chopping toddlers with axes or just plainly smashing them against wall.

    So while I, personally, sincerely hope it is fake, who knows...

    Peace_Brothers -> Oleg Volkov, 14 July 2014 7:31pm

    If Lyashko can film himself doing this, and then is lauded as a national hero (right now, more popular than Poroshenko), then I agree that anything is possible... Having said that, I hope it's not true.

    1. He kidnaps a couple of locals and tells them they will be lucky if they are ever heard from again!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tTb7efoe89I

    2. Interrogation "a la Lyashko" - with English sub-titles.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IpdsOsF2xm0

    BMWAlbert -> Oleg Volkov, 14 July 2014 7:33pm

    There is actually an appeal being debated in CZ parliament about Volhynian Czechs (name of old province now in NW-most Ukraine) wanting to escape the UA situation, and it is not only based on economic concerns, there are ethnic ones too.

    Bakaro -> Urobulos, 15 July 2014 12:37am

    Ask Poles and Jews what Bandera supporters did to them during WW2. I am sure they still remember.

    Were pictures from Odessa Russian propaganda too?

    Bakaro -> Urobulos, 15 July 2014 2:28am

    People dying in a fire started after both sides engaged in street fighting is tragic, but actually something completely different from a public crucifixion of a child. Now tell me who would make up such a story and why? Because the only reason I can think of is to spread fear, hate and hatred between Russians and Ukrainians.

    Street fighting was downtown, after that the Ukrainian nationalists decided to take revenge on the tent camp near the trade union building, there were people who had nothing to do with previous fighting, including elderly and females. The statistics of the dead says it all, 1 person dead from the nationalists side, and 48 dead from the referendum supporters side.

    On top of that, 130 people from the trade union building were arrested and charged the same night, even though many of them were injured (beaten by nationalists while exiting the building). NONE of the nationalists was arrested, even though everybody, including the firefighters saw that they were throwing Molotov cocktails at the building. A month later, two of the nationalists were arrested in Odessa, but they were released under house arrest by Kiev, as "maidan heros". Which means the government de facto takes side with the nationalists.

    And regarding the spreading of hatred. Have you seen the comments from pro-Ukrainian forums regarding the Odessa fire? A statement from Svoboda, and Right Sector, that it was one of the 'brightest days in Ukrainian history'? Or Ukrainian MPs? Who is spreading the hatred?

    Bakaro -> Zaporozhye, 15 July 2014 12:41am

    This isn't even funny. The Ukrainian government is bombing its own cities and killing civilians including kids, while Russia is accepting tens of thousands of Ukrainian refugees. But, for you, it is Russia who is becoming a 'terrorist state'.

    BTW. you are very prolific, I hope it pays well.

    Taku2, 14 July 2014 7:31pm

    Seems that the Americans and EU have given the Ukraine's Government carte blanche defeat or try to defeat the Rebel forces in the Eastern Ukraine. You do not hear much ado being made about the killing and destruction that is being perpetuated; unlike what is happening in Syria, where the West supports the rebels against the government.

    It is worrying that what is happening in the Ukraine is happening; it is almost as if the conflict is being normalized. Europe has been quite self-righteous about how Nato and the UN has kept wars out of the continent.

    There is a very worrying change taking place, and Europeans need to wake up; as the expanding monolith that is the EU continues to caste its pernicious tentacles further east.

    CutThruMediaLies, 14 July 2014 7:35pm

    Really not a very happy Nazi, is he...

    A brief excerpt proving my point...

    1. A Historical Statement from the EU 13th Dec. 2012 regarding Svoboda the political party which represents Ukraine nationalism (previously Social-National Party of Ukraine) whose founder, Andriy Volodymyrovych Parubiy, heads the Ukrainian National Security Council (after the Maidan Coup). "Parliament goes on to express concern about the rising nationalist sentiment in the Ukraine, expressed in support for the Svoboda party, which as a result, is one of the two new parties to enter the Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian Parliament). It recalls that racist, anti-semitic and xenophobic views go against the EU's fundamental values and principals and therefore appeals to pro-democratic parties in the Verkovna Rada not to associate with, endorse or form coalitions with this party."
    2. I don't know if any of you have watched the world at war. It was a definitive documentary made in the Seventies by the BBC voiced over by Jeremy Isaacs.
    The opening scenes show footage from the air of a French village, Oradour-sur-Glane, voiced over by Laurence Olivier. This village had its population completely massacred in a 'retaliatory operation' by SS Division SS Das Reich. They were herded into a church which was set on fire and machine-gunned. Das Reich has a regimental symbol called the Wolfsangel. This division fought on the Eastern Front as well though surprisingly, maybe even amazingly, for an SS division serving on the Eastern Front, I have been unable, in my brief check, to find any evidence of similar atrocities on the Eastern Front. More likely to my mind is that 'counter insurgency' tactics adopted on the Eastern Front were used in Oradour-sur-Glane.

    I'll get to the point. A new brigade, the 'AZOV' brigade, has been formed in the new Ukrainian 'National Guards Army'. If you look at this link, you shall see what I mean. Its hard for me to believe that the emblem isn't derived from SS Das Reich's.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/ukraine-nazi-emblems.jpg

    If this is representative of the activities going on in South Eastern Ukraine, has our media simply gone mute, or is there something even worse going on?
    3. Full on Neo-Nazi Style reprisals from none other than ... Poroshenko http://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/30733.html
    4. Kiev Post sahres governments off of free land for those who fight in Donetsk / Lugansk - Classic Settler Regime Tactic
    http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVywMIcRTnQ8AAk1XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzdWMxMnIzBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1ZJUDQ4M18x/RV=2/RE=1405391246/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.kyivpost.com%2fcontent%2fukraine%2fukraines-land-agency-give-land-to-soldiers-in-the-east-for-free-352100.html/RK=0/RS=eQiEqeC9UxiLNWJQV5xLvCqOo7Y-
    5. Letter purporting to be from the Ukrainian minister of defence mandating that all male refugees be called up to fight in the 'Anti Terrorist Operation.' If true - Unbelievable.
    http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ch/2014/07/ukraines-demarche-against-refugees-to.html

    TrueUkrainian, 14 July 2014 7:52pm

    This is what keeps them going. It is easy to blame Russia for all Ukraine troubles.

    Firstly, it shifts the focus from the dire economic trouble and the fact that people in power in Kiev have done nothing for the ordinary people. Secondly, it absolves them from the need for a dialogue in the country (as everyone that disagrees with them is labelled a "putin's agent"). Thirdly, it is just easier not to talk about their US links (Poroshenko is mentioned in wikileakd cables as an informant of US embassy) and the fact what stupid decisions they have made (IMF loan conditions).

    It is time they grow up and accept responsibility for their faults and outright stupidity.

    Canadianidol -> TrueUkrainian, 14 July 2014 8:04pm

    It is not easy to reverse a hundred years of Russian Kleptocracy in just a few months. All of the economic woes of Ukraine and indeed the suffering Russian people are as a direct result of the Kremlin.

    BMWAlbert -> Canadianidol, 14 July 2014 8:44pm

    It is not easy to reverse rather the parochialism and cultural decay of the centuries under the so-called Polish Commonwealth.

    TrueUkrainian -> Canadianidol, 14 July 2014 9:29pm

    Ukraine has been formally independent in its pre-Maidan borders (a gift from USSR btw) for 23 years.

    There have not been many achievements in these years, apart from establishment of oligarchical rule, "normalisation" of corruption and continuous attempts to disband autonomous status of Crimea. This (and not Russian influence) is the main reason for Ukraine problems. It understandable why people were upset and why US funding and support for far-right groups has found a fertile soil.

    As Ukrainian joke goes, "Petro Poroshenko is going to rebuild economy of Ukraine, which was destroyed by Yanukovich, in government of which Poroshenko was the minister of economic development".

    EbbTide64, 14 July 2014 7:52pm

    All of this Ukrainian regime seem to be a bit hyperbolic (remember Yatsenyuk's "The ground will burn under their feet" nonsense?), don't they?

    But they think incinerating innocent people for holding the wrong political views is an action which merits reward, rather than justice, which takes a pretty strange type of mentality.

    Peace_Brothers -> EbbTide64, 14 July 2014 7:59pm

    But one which is clearly supported by the West, in Ukraine's case...

    prutin -> EbbTide64, 14 July 2014 8:02pm

    But they think

    They don't think that. You think that people will believe that they think that, because you say that they do.

    But who are you? A pro-Russian loudspeaker?

    EbbTide64 -> prutin, 14 July 2014 8:50pm

    They don't think that.

    Their actions say that they do think that. Most of the people who were murdered in Odessa were in tents, quietly and peacefully getting signatures for their cause. The pro-Kiev neo-Nazis didn't like that cause, so they herded them into the Union Building and killed them.
    And Yatsenyuk's government rewarded them by co-opting the mass murderers into the National Guard, paying them and arming them. Fairly obviously, they are rewarding people who kill political opponents.

    Canadianidol, 14 July 2014 8:00pm

    The time for mercy is long past. Whoever committed these crimes will be killed as a result. If it is war you want then its war you get.

    Remember the Canadian AWAC plane sent to Ukraine about two months ago. It was publicized that it is equipped with a ground radar. Friends of Ukraine are already, publicly, operating in support of Ukraine. Putin will not challenge NATO and survive the experience.

    Trudi Goater -> Canadianidol, 14 July 2014 8:05pm

    Ummmm if that happens none of us will survive idiot

    loveminuso, 14 July 2014 8:01pm

    People have to realize that the Ukrainian crises is a brutal hostile western corporate takeover, set in place by cowardly, unaffected and entitled western corporate/feudal sociopaths, to rob the Ukrainian working class of their natural resources and their human capital/energy.

    The western corporate/feudal Crime gangs (one openly displaying a member of the Biden Crime Family, Mr Hunter Biden), as those who are to realistically benefit from the western NeoCon's mass murder for western corporate profits in the areas of Ukraine that aren't willing to pawn of their country to the US's Brusselian Mafia….

    The same Project for the New American Corporate/Feudal century is being applied within the structures of Operation Full Spectrum Dominance not only against the working class of Palestine, Ukraine, Russia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Lybia, Africa (the Africon Terror project for Corporate profits and control) and all other foreign expendable Human Resources, but is being covertly applied to the working poor of the very countries used as a launch platform for these aggressive crimes against the until now lesser global working class(untermensch) within the western Corporate Forth Reich's foreign policies that are so easily sold to their own 'useless eaters' as democracy and morality applied with bombs, terror, blood and creams and tears…how do they get away with it, these evil creatures…these hollow shadow humans?

    gregor01, 14 July 2014 8:04pm

    The way The Guardian reports events in Ukraine is ridiculous. A democracy elected party agrees deals with Russia to create tighter bonds with regards to the natural resources in the country whilst rejecting the EU and US proposals from the multi nationals to extract their resources at low prices.
    When a government rejects the EU/US what follows is a swift policy of destabilisation that follows the following three steps.

    1. Application of pressure from politicians
    2. Funding and arming of rebel groups to over throw regime
    3. False flag event and invasion of the country in order to change regime.

    In this instance only step 2 was required; the new government quickly wrap up deals with the west's multi-nationals. Another example is Iraq that required step 3 after the 'weapons of mass destruction' false flag. Syria - step 3 was almost implemented with a 'gas attack' false flag, due to massive public pressure the US/UK could not invade. We see other instances in Libya just a couple of years ago where step 2 was enough.

    Going back to the article the guardian refer to the US/EU installed leader as the Ukraine president instead of a unelected rebel that seized power from the elected leader. There seems to be absolutely no moral issues with the men who took power but the fighters that still back the former elected president are referred to as 'rebels, and separatist fighters'.

    All of these wars and acts of destabilisation are on the behalf of the elite in society. Our current foreign policy is to serve the profits of the multi-nationals at all costs even if that involves the use of the army and the death of millions. That is the way it works and this is the only way the people in power are able to get their positions in the first place. It is reported by the media who is owned by a few corporations that report any official line that is required.

    gregor01 -> jackscht, 14 July 2014 9:22pm

    We are under a corporate dictatorship that functions like a pyramid scheme. Politicians serve the corporate profits then join their ranks later in life. All the money funnels up then it bursts and the people at the base of the pyramid go bust.

    Feel free to go on with the belief that we are the righteous ones. 100 years from now history will look back on today much the same as we look back on colonialism. I am not saying Putins regime is what we need to aim for but neither is being ruled for corporate profits.

    TrueUkrainian -> Canadianidol, 14 July 2014 9:37pm

    Well, your examples? When nazional guard in Ukraine does not like what Russian (or Ukrainian) media write, it also assasinates the journalists. However, this is not worth highlighting, right?

    joeboyread, 14 July 2014 8:14pm

    Russia is not the culptit here ,it is the U.S.A and this monster EU ,the EU should be broken immediately ,return sovereign Nations to run their own countries.UKraine is just the Tip of an Iceberg ,war will come in Every EU country , ALL BECAUSE EU Takeover .This whole thing is Forencically planned ,years in the making ,the whole EU thing must dissolve

    Peace_Brothers, 14 July 2014 8:14pm

    GUARDIAN:

    "The negotiations make no sense any more," Levchenko said. "So many people died already on both sides. They hate us and we hate them. It's war."

    By Kiev's admission they hate Eastern Ukraine, and it's WAR, but a war where only one side is legally allowed to fight... Mmmm.

    John Gurley Peace_Brothers, 14 July 2014 8:27pm

    I would say they hate the Russians in East Ukraine, not the Ukrainians.

    dmitry_k -> John Gurley, 14 July 2014 9:06pm

    What do you mean? They are ukrainian citizens in the East. Do you mean they hate ethnically russian citizens of Ukraine? Isn't this exactly what fashism/nazism is supposed to be?

    Kal El, 14 July 2014 8:23pm

    When is Petro Don Potty going to bring out his book ?

    Because for the past few weeks he's been coming out with such fairytales that even Hans Christian Andersen is looking a mere lightweight


    Jack Dunster, 14 July 2014 8:25pm

    The Russians live in a fantasy world.. a crucified boy... You and your people live in Wonderland, Mr. Putin... The sad fact is there will be so many who will believe this lurid dark fantasy - put forward by a deranged mind.

    Zogz -> Jack Dunster, 14 July 2014 8:46pm

    I know right, next they will be claiming there are WMD's in Iraq!

    spartacus28, 14 July 2014 8:35pm

    The biggest criminal to come out of this is kolomolsky who is hiding in geneva HE PULLS THE STRINGS PAYS THE PIPER orthodox jews are very upset about his involvement with nazis and used a quabalan curse on him so if the russians dont get him hell pay for his crimes.

    But lets hope this is the last chapter of human history to be played this way kolomolsky and the like have ruled over us for thousands of years and i think the mask is starting to fall.

    Please everybody blaming putin and the russians google kolomolsky and you will see the real greedy bastards who are behind this mess.

    JanZamoyski, 14 July 2014 8:35pm

    I really wish both ( more like three ) sides called things what they really are.

    Those aren't terrorists in the East, but separatists who after Putin so easily took over Crimea thought they can repeat the same success in the East. The problem is those aren't just ethnic Russians who live there.

    The whole Ukraine isn't Nazi / fascist either, the ultra-nationalist got as many votes if not less as Russian ultras.

    When it comes to Putin, he could decide if separatists are criminals ( as he recently decided in Russia ) or freedom fights ( as he apparently views them in Eastern Ukraine ).

    prutin -> mary8stewart

    Freedom fighters fight for freedom.
    But in this case, and since there is more freedom in Ukraine and more repression in Russia, the Pro-Russian 'separatists' should be called 'repressionfighters'.

    Bakaro -> prutin, 15 July 2014 1:04am

    If "there is more freedom in Ukraine" how come the demands for a referendum on federalization and official status of Russian language are answered with burning of people (in Odessa) and tanks, air- and artillery fire (in Donbass)?
    The 'evil' Russia, on the other hand, is a federation, and there are 27 official languages in different regions of Russia in addition to Russian.

    Urobulos -> Bakaro, 15 July 2014 1:17am

    Demands for a referendum were launched after the success of the first "referendum" in Crimea. Forgive me for ignoring 1) a referendum carried out under the patronage of the invading Russian army 2) not recognising the calls for a referendum made by a few thousand armed men of mixed origin.

    Ukraine will likely have to federalise sooner rather than later and somehow create a viable future for East and West. But it will have to be done through a political process, not a band of mercenaries setting up phony republics. If Poroshenko ends up treating the East like conquered land, then he will not survive for long, regardless of how many terrorists his amy will kill.

    Bakaro -> Urobulos, 15 July 2014 1:59am

    Bullshit. The demands for more autonomy from Kiev and a referendum came right after the Maidan. There were no Russian troops anywhere near Odessa, or Donbass. What prevented the Ukrainian so-called government to organize a referendum, or promise to organize it, or at least talk to people? They never did, instead they arrested protests leaders, which only fueled the protests.

    "somehow create a viable future for East and West" - how they are going to do it now, after all the killing? They should've thought about the future, when they decided to send army to Donbass.

    Mulefish, 14 July 2014 8:42pm

    Poroshenko is learning fast from his U.S. masters. They have given him their most potent weapon:

    Lie boldly and often enough, and some fools will always believe those lies, including our darling Western press.

    (It was ironic to the point of being hilarious to watch Jon Snow, or a lookalike of Jon Snow, recently berating a stuffed shirt Israeli spokesman for turning Palestine into an open prison camp.
    It took ten years of indifferent Duh from his BBC newsreading and many barbarics for the simple penny to drop, but, the righteous indignation was real, Jon.)

    rodney9, 14 July 2014 8:43pm

    After a lull when all sides appeared to be seeking a way out of the conflict,

    I'm sorry I must have been on holiday. We have just heard reports of shelling on Russian territory and deaths, as well as relentless shelling by the Kiev forces.. The recently brokered peace attempt was put to one side. Poroshenko spoke of a symbolic victory with the taking of Slaviansyk, and appeared to jump in the air at the same time clicking his military heels. That this is a "lull", does that explain why we have continual pictures of President Poroshenko in military fatigues thesedays? At least some European television networks have the honesty to report from Gaza and the shelling, and then to Ukraine and the shelling.

    However, is it me, or do the innocent civilians (women and children) in Gaza appear to have a much higher priority (sympathy quotient) than those innocent civilians (women and children) in the Ukraine.

    Levchenko claimed that civilians were mostly pleased to see the troops.... About 70% of the population had already left the town to escape the fighting, he added.

    No comment.

    Mistaron -> rodney9, 14 July 2014 8:57pm

    ''Levchenko claimed that civilians were mostly pleased to see the troops.... About 70% of the population had already left the town to escape the fighting, he added.''

    Had me scratching my head as well.

    Evan Vrysoulis, 14 July 2014 8:45pm

    Captain Valery Levchenko, Tamara Yarontseva just quoting random names to give credibility to your reporting. However, you never show videos of massive support to the Kiev occupying forces of New Russia. On the contrary there are tens of videos showing peoples opposition to the Kiev troops.

    Why doesn't the guardian in small letters do us a favor and admit they will be carrying on tickling us with their propaganda?

    Nenad Vidovic -> Evan Vrysoulis, 14 July 2014 9:04pm

    They can't. There are three magic letters CIA

    pieter1, 14 July 2014 8:48pm

    The West has already lost,Crimea has returned to Russia and will never again be Ukrainian,And the EU will never accept such a dysfunctional failed state as Ukraine becoming a member of the EU,So Ukraines future is to be a barren impoverished no man's land between Russia and the EU.

    Robert Looren de Jong, 14 July 2014 8:53pm

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/07/14/uk-ukraine-crisis-strategy-analysis-idUKKBN0FJ2BE20140714?rpc=401&feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&rpc=401

    Kal El Robert -> Looren de Jong, 14 July 2014 9:02pm

    What else to expect from a former US ambassador lol.

    Shame he can't prove a single word to back his claims up.

    Raminak101, 14 July 2014 9:22pm

    Crucifying kids. The freedom democratic lovely elected Ukraine government (soon to join EU) has reached new heights of freedom democracy thingy.

    Robert Looren de Jong -> Raminak101 , 14 July 2014 9:24pm

    you really should not believe all you see on russian state tv there
    http://www.news24.com/World/News/Russian-TV-show-Ukraine-child-crucifixion-20140714?


    Raminak101 -> Robert Looren de Jong, 14 July 2014 10:39pm

    This link of yours does not refute the claim. It merely states Ukrainian government claims on Russians being terribly bad and nasty!

    The. Problem is that we have been hearing the obnoxious rants of the government and watching videos of their men beating up officials who do not toe the line (YouTube is full of them). Not exactly chaps one might want to invite for a cup of tea!

    burnageblue11, 14 July 2014 9:24pm

    Putin has remained very restrained considering the long term Sovereign integrity off Russia is actually at risk here. An idiot can see the end game is the US sticking NATO troops on the Russia/Ukraine border. In my opinion It was that alone that forced Russia to act swiftly in Crimea. If Russia had lost Crimea it would have profound implications on Russia Geo-political interests in the Mediterranean. the reality is she had no choice. The United States would have done the same if her interests were at risk.

    I also don't actually believe that Russia has any real interests in Ukraine,(other than having a NATO free border) the economy is a basket case. The IMF loans so far seem to have been spent on arms and ammunition rather than things like the 8 Billion gas bill they are in arrears with( will be cold in Ukraine this winter). In my opinion Kiev are only doing the bidding off their master in Washington, trying to get Russia in to an economy destroying conflict in Ukraine. Putin is doing his best to avoid such a conflict.

    The danger though is Firing missiles in to Russia and killing Russian citizens. could have unexpected dire consequences. Some Russian politicians are saying enough is enough. The more vocal they get, the more vulnerable Putin position becomes if he does not react. The risk is he could actually be deposed and replaced by a hardliner. Is that what the West really wants, to make Putin position untenable because he is perceived as being weak for not acting.

    I think the US government is acting in a very dangerous and reckless way. You need only look at the Middle East to see US Foreign policy disasters. Ukraine could be their worst yet it could potentially lead to WW3.

    [Jul 15, 2014] Biden tells Ukraine's Poroshenko US will press Russia over rebels

    Today it is obvious that the ATO was a blunder. Hubrus and nationalistic histeria of junta prevented negotiation and they god civil war instead of federalizatin and other small concessions that people of those regions demanded from Kiev. Military success Poroshenko claimed proved to a phantom. An illusion. The concept of "terrorists", who are just needed to be dislodge from their positions, as things will get better, was destroyed in Slavyansk and other "liberated" towns. Resistance continues. In each of them "junta in chocolate" must keep a separate military garrison and carry on punitive measures among the local population. Even if that manage fully "liberate" the South-East it will be a sad picture: a classical picture of the occupied territory.
    Jul 15, 2014 | The Guardian
    userid -> Zaporozhye , 13 July 2014 7:33am
    This is the result of Grad missile fire, made in Friday night by rebels over Ukies military. Just think of Poroshenko's army every day use this weapon against city suburbs in Slavyansk, Ligansk, Donetsk, small towns and villages.

    The greatest lie today is that official mass media keep a blind eye and psaking of this. Words can lie much easier than videos. Watch number of them here http://antiMaidan.info/ every day and don't be fooled by US sponsored media and Nazis making ethnic cleansing to gain freed property.

    gottliebvera, 12 July 2014 9:23pm

    And all this misery courtesy of 'F***EU' Nuland and her boss.

    Ingelrild -> gottliebvera, 12 July 2014 9:53pm

    This is how the economic terrorists roll...

    "You know we did it, and we don't give a fuck uh..."

    braciole -> gottliebvera, 12 July 2014 11:08pm

    Unfortunately the misery will continue until Putin responds with force. That the Ukraine military are not very effective is a feature rather than a problem for Washington. The longer that Washington can prolong the killing of ethnic Russians the greater the pressure on Putin to intervene in Ukraine. Any pressure for peace from Berlin will be ignored by the putschists in Kiev on Washington's say-so.It wouldn't even surprise me if Washington were supplying ex-Soviet weapons stockpiled in eastern Europe to the separatists.

    ElvisInWales -> braciole, 13 July 2014 12:38am

    That is what all this is all about, to goad Russia into a war with the hope that no one is mad enough to launch the nukes, this is inspite of Putin saying that under certain circumstance Russia will strike first.

    Russia and its president along with its staff are the only grown ups in this sorry mess, our leaders actions are pathetic and juvenile and make themselves look bare stupid.

    But given all the pisstaking in recent years from lying to the Russians over Libya, big piss take over Syria and now Ukraine, its goading, and for what? a bit of oil or gas... For fucks sake!

    letsbeclearaboutthis -> braciole, 13 July 2014 2:35am

    Have you forgotten they had an election recently?

    braciole -> letsbeclearaboutthis, 13 July 2014 3:58am

    How is that relevant? Do you believe that because the putschists in Kiev conducted an election of dubious legality and fairness (I notice there appears to be no Carter Center report on the election) , that justifies any action they take including killing civilians, a war crime? If you do, then Yanukovich as a president elected in legal and fair elections was entitled to put down the Euromaidan insurrection by Pravyi Sektor and Svoboda with at least as much force.

    greatwhitehunter -> braciole, 13 July 2014 4:28am

    The ukrainian army took the time during the cease fire to re-eqipment their army this is the reason for the turn around in the events in ukraine. Victoria nuland has recently given her report to the US goverment detailing what they have spent in the last month.A large amount was for military equipment. They have supplied body armour and night vision equipment for the whole army .

    I see from the latest photos that the ukraine army now has the later model russian tank Obviously the russians must be supplying both sides, Cant trust the russkys All joking aside the tanks probably came from poland

    I herd that they were brand new but they were probably old ones painted over for obvious reasons. As the US are committed to non lethal support then there is probably some deal going on in the back ground to give poland some new ones

    Oilyheart braciole, 13 July 2014 4:41am

    The big question is, who gave Yanukovich the order to pack his bags to leave office and who told the military and police not to suppress riots that would have been suppressed forthwith in any EU country? The US has "free speech zones" where protesters are arrested immediately. Funny that Yanu's bags were already packed when the presidential palace was stormed.

    The answer is, don't ask.

    Hyman Roth never asks who gives the order. But if you watch him very closely, you will notice, as Michael Corleone did, that he's been dying of the same heart attack for forty years as he effortlessly hands off the solid gold telephone when they are passing it around the conference table. The devil is in the tiny details somewhere.


    mango2005 braciole, 13 July 2014 8:25am

    The election results were in line with the opinion polls.

    christopher22 -> letsbeclearaboutthis, 13 July 2014 9:18am

    It must be nice to delude yourself that the election in Kiev had any relevance but the truth is - it didn't.

    Chocoshenko is simply a mouthpiece for the unelected thugs who still hold all the positions of power in Ukraine

    So that we're clear, the US and EU have put in place a Nazi government in Europe (the first since Hitler.A.) and are currently backing them to goad Russia into military action (in the hope that it will embrace the whole of Europe and they will hold the coats - as usual)

    So when the lights go out next winter - you now know why.

    greatwhitehunter braciole, 13 July 2014 10:41am

    What i do know and this is not some urban mith is that the snipers hadnt opened up on the protesters that triggered the take over that triggerd russia moving on crimea the russia would have signed trade deals that were the first in a string of free trade agreements that would have marginalised the USA as an economic power. The US was fighting for its economic life.

    Who gained the most from the snipers pulling the trigger. Not ukraine they ended up losing crimea and potentially the east. the maiden protesters had signed an agreement to get rid of yano*&^ they were sweet and things were looking up .

    At the end of the day whats a few hundred dead ukrainians compared to the health of the US economy. This will stop when the US want it to stop. I bet u their is a few surprised people in the whitehouse that cant beleive putin has sat on his hands for so long. I vote the US should be required to use their influence ect ect ect or else travel ban alround

    I vote Obama kerry, biden and nuland for a start because i sure as hell dont want them near me.

    braciole dzielanski , 13 July 2014 11:16am
    Another neo-nazi/fascist supporter who indulges in whataboutery - I thought that wasn't allowed? Or is it all right as long as you're not a putinbot?

    I am not suggesting that CIA-sponsored troublemakers were involved in Crimea - in fact, I would suggest that the CIA is so incompetent at gathering human intelligence that it didn't see the Russian takeover in Crimea coming, so in an act dripping in hubris Obama, Kerry, and Nuland pushed through the putsch in Kiev thinking that Putin would do nothing.

    So the separatists didn't buy those rocket launchers at an army surplus shop?

    There is some evidence that they bought them from the Ukrainian army, but your description of it as an army surplus store is a touch cruel.

    As to my suggestion that the United States government might arm both sides in a conflict to prolong it, the United States government has form. For instance, the Iraq-Iran war. So that they might want to do it in Ukraine because they want to reduce Russia to a few impotent client states, wouldn't surprise me but it's hard to see any evidence yet as nobody, particularly in the MSM, is looking for it. Though I would suggest that the breaking by the putschists under pressure from the United States government of the February 21st agreement and the later agreement signed in the last couple of weeks tends to support my hypothesis.

    YourFault , 12 July 2014 9:28pm
    Ukraine shelled Mariinka with Grad missiles killing 30 civilians yesterday. During last months Ukraine MSM (several state SBU as source) made several reports that "rebels" caputured ukrainian grads - for example http://inforesist.org/opolchency-zaxvatili-dve-ukrainskie-ustanovki-grad/. Biden should read more SBU sources or asks his son, cause he must know better
    Verbum dzielanski , 13 July 2014 12:34pm
    What surprises me is that there are people who believe that providing the rebels with heavy weapons is going to rectify this situation.

    This comment could apply equally well to Syria.

    As to the Ukraine - American support has clearly got into Poroshenko's head and he behaves like president of a superpower. He may wish to consider that what Israel can get away with, Ukraine may not.

    If he thinks that military victory will also be a political one, he is deluding himself. Unless he embarks on negotiations with the separatists and offers them a viable autonomy within Ukraine, best he can hope for is a prolonged low-intensity, chronic insurgency if not acts of random terror (Ukraine's Ireland?)

    If Poroshenko continues wholesale attacks on urban centres with growing loses among the civilian population, Putin may be forced to act or risk losing popular support in Russia. He may wait for a major atrocity to declare a 'no flying zone' over Ukraine, quoting the R2P used by the West in Libya.

    It is in West's best interest to restrain Poroshenko as they simply can't risk serious confrontation with Russia, and economic sanctions may prove too costly to both sides. In the end Russia may offset the effect of the sanctions by increased trade with countries like India and China or use both as conduits to trade with willing partners in the West.

    The Ukrainian crisis is largely 'made in the USA' and the EU should think carefully about the possible outcomes, which may be more direct and unpleasant for Europe than for the USA. Lastly - USA with its habitual spying, lying and arm twisting does not come across to its European friends as benevolent or trustworthy anymore.

    [Jul 14, 2014] Ukraine Faces Mortgage Crisis on Top of War by By Daryna Krasnolutska and Daria Marchak

    The country was very fragile from the beginning. So when Dnepropetrovsk clan allied with ultranationalists depose Yanukovich in EuroMaidan color revolution many things including currency tanked.
    June 26, 2014 | Businessweek

    Kiev is calm now, but Bukovetskiy isn't. He joined hundreds of angry borrowers at Parliament on June 19 to demand relief for holders of mortgages that bind the borrower to pay in dollars. Since the hryvnia lost 40 percent of its value following President Viktor Yanukovych's ouster, the cost of making mortgage payments has ballooned. For Bukovetskiy, mortgage payments of $1,250 a month on his apartment now cost 14,912 hryvnia; they cost 6,250 hryvnia when he got the loan. "I don't have that kind of money," says Bukovetskiy, who dipped into savings to pay his mortgage after losing his marketing job. "I'm not hiding from my bank. But I want a compromise."

    Six months of turmoil have rocked Ukraine's finances, turning the hryvnia into 2014's worst performer vs. the dollar and prompting the government to seek a $17 billion bailout from the International Monetary Fund. The government is working to broker a deal between lenders and borrowers without harming the flow of credit, according to Pavlo Sheremeta, Ukraine's economy minister.

    Mortgage lenders in Ukraine, which include local banks as well as Russian and Austrian institutions, have issued only hryvnia-based home loans since the 2008 global financial crisis ravaged Ukraine's economy. Before that, Ukrainians had piled into mortgages denominated in foreign currencies, attracted by a lower loan rate of 11.5 percent, well below hryvnia-denominated mortgage rates of 17 percent to 20 percent. Today, Ukrainian consumers owe $4 billion in foreign-currency home loans (48.3 billion hryvnia), or almost a quarter of total consumer lending.

    Dollar-denominated loans ncies other than the zloty rose for a sixth consecutive month in April.

    In Ukraine, the ratio of banks' nonperforming loans to their total lending will reach 30 percent this year, as credit costs rise, Moody's Investors Service predicted in May. (By contrast, U.S. banks took loan-loss provisions of $263 billion in the first quarter of 2010, about 3.5 percent of all loans.) Ukraine had 87,091 foreign-currency home loans as of May 1, central bank data show.

    ... ... ...

    One fear is the hryvnia sinking below 12.5 to the dollar. At that level, the IMF estimates that the 22 largest banks would need to be recapitalized at a cost of as much as 5 percent of gross domestic product. Yet if this year's hryvnia exchange rate can strengthen to 10.5 per dollar, the loan losses for Ukrainian banks would remain within the limits already set out by the IMF, said Vadim Khramov, an economist at Bank of America (BAC), by e-mail. "If the government can assure the IMF the proposed measures wouldn't substantially increase costs to the budget, the [bailout] program is unlikely to change."

    Foreign banks have an interest in the resolution of Ukraine's mortgage crisis. Austria's Raiffeisen Bank International (RBI:AV) said recently that 2014 provisions against loan losses may rise by 22 percent, to €1.4 billion ($1.9 billion), rather than remain little changed as previously predicted, mainly because of events in Ukraine and Russia. Bukovetskiy says his lender is offering no respite. His bank's press service declined to comment. "I'm not ready to spend all my money on debt repayments and go hungry," he says.

    Why Ukraine Can't Win an All-Out Military Victory-and Shouldn't Try By Carol Matlack

    July 07, 2014 | Businessweek

    Suddenly, Ukraine's army is winning. Over the weekend Kiev's troops recaptured several cities in the eastern Donetsk region, sending pro-Russian rebels fleeing to strongholds further east. Now President Petro Poroshenko is planning a "complete blockade" of the region's two other main cities, Donetsk and Luhansk, according to a Ukrainian television report that quoted the deputy head of the country's National Defense and Security Council.

    That's a striking turnabout from just a few weeks ago, when Ukraine's forces seemed ragtag and reluctant to fight. But it doesn't mean a military victory is likely, or desirable.

    The cities retaken over the past few days were relatively small (the largest, Kramatorsk, has a population of 165,000) and lightly defended. Donetsk, the region's biggest city with some 1 million inhabitants, is still in the hands of rebels. Rooting them out would be a long and brutal process. "They would have to do it street by street," says Mark Galeotti, a professor of global affairs at New York University. "The cost in body bags would be high."

    True, Ukraine's forces are now better trained and equipped than before, thanks in part to $23 million in recent U.S. aid. But they're still no match for Russia's military-and Russia won't let Ukraine retake Donetsk without a serious fight, Ian Bremmer, head of the political risk research firm Eurasia Group, told Bloomberg Television today. Although the flow of aid to the rebels from across Russia's border appears to have slowed, it could resume at any time, turning the battle for the city into a bloodbath. "I don't see the Ukrainians holding Donetsk and the Russians sitting on the sidelines," Bremmer said.

    While Russia is unlikely to invade Ukraine, it could step up its involvement to weaken the Ukrainian military's effectiveness against the rebels, Galeotti says. One possibility, he says, might be a no-fly zone enforced by the Russian air force.

    Ukrainian forces have used heavy artillery to dislodge rebels from some other locales, but that tactic would "produce many more civilian casualties" in densely-populated Donetsk, Edward Walker, head of the Soviet & Post-Soviet Studies Program at the University of California, Berkeley, writes on his blog. "Kiev is going to face a very difficult decision."

    The advances of the past few days could put Poroshenko in a better position to negotiate a peaceful settlement. That still looks like the best solution for Ukraine and for Russia. "Putin's aim is to get Kiev to strike a deal that he can spin at home as 'mission accomplished,' that keeps Ukraine within Russia's sphere of influence," Galeotti says. "A great apocalyptic war in Donetsk doesn't advance that case." It's understandable that Ukraine is taking a stronger stand against rebels who repeatedly violated a ceasefire, he says. But "trying for an all-out military victory could go horribly wrong."

    Matlack is a Paris correspondent for Bloomberg Businessweek.

    [Jul 13, 2014] Ukraine's shelling could have irreversible consequences, says Russia by Shaun Walker

    People are dying for gas pipelines... As DaveHodge put it " I would think that anyone with half a scrupple can see the Ukraine government is under instructions from the US to provoke Moscow." An interesting data for Ukraine's gas transit lines. Modernization costs of over $3billion - proposed improvement costs of $5.5billion.
    The Guardian
    Nobul, 13 July 2014 2:30pm

    In Aug 2008 Putin was in Beijing watching the Olympics, that US poodle tie chewer Sakashivili attacked Russians in South Ossetia.

    In July 2014, the new US attack dog Porky Poroshenko is trying to please his masters again while Putin is in Rio watching the World Cup. He will end up worse of than the tie chewer.

    jgbg crystaltips2 , 13 July 2014 8:13pm
    Shell lands in Russia = obvious provocation?

    There have been several such incidents over the last few weeks but so far, Russia has only complained to Kiev, so the provocation of the Ukrainian military hasn't worked so far.

    Russian backed militant "volunteers" sent in to Eastern Ukraine to destabilise it

    There are very few Russian citizens involved, the majority are Ukrainian citizens, as backed up by the people the Ukrainian authorities have captured or killed. If you want to believe Ukrainian media, believe the bits from people who have actually been to see the fighting in Donbass for themselves. Here's Mark Franchetti of the Sunday Times, being interviewed on Ukrainian TV:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BVPtiwdrlI

    Alternatively, there's a supporter of EuroMaidan and Right Sector, Ruslan Kotsaba. He also apppeared on Ukrainian TV:

    http://rutube.ru/video/249dac1b5f4398d54ed73c504fd740c3/

    An English transcript is here:

    http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/06/26/ruslan-kotsaba-frank-account/

    ChristopherMyers, 13 July 2014 2:37pm

    "For every soldier's life, the militants will pay with dozens and hundreds of their own," said Ukraine's president, Petro Poroshenko after Friday's attack

    I do believe this is an old Nazi response used during the second world war, you would think they would try something new, guess you just can't teach an old dog new tricks.

    "I think all it would take would be one day where, say, 300 people are killed in the east and Putin will be simply obliged to act," said the source. "I don't think you can rule it out yet, not at all."

    I would think this latest Kiev trick would be enough provocation considering they make themselves very clear on the worth of East Ukrainian Russian lives.

    Canadianidol ChristopherMyers, 13 July 2014 2:45pm

    Terrorists are combatants out of uniform and may be dealt with in a summary fashion when apprehended by the authorities. This is found in the Geneva Conventions.

    PeterlooSunset -> ChristopherMyers, 13 July 2014 2:46pm

    guess you just can't teach an old dog new tricks.

    Nope. Driving civilians into buildings which they then set on fire is another old trick.

    PeterlooSunset , 13 July 2014 2:37pm
    Putin is in Brazil where he is due to watch the World Cup final on Sunday evening

    His visit to Brazil is part of a larger Latin American tour, in which he strengthened political and economical ties with Argentina, Uruguay, Nicaragua, Cuba and Brazil. More relevant than attending the World Cup final, there is an important BRICS summit to create an alternative development bank to the corrupt World Bank and IMF.

    Canadianidol, 13 July 2014 2:41pm

    Just more empty, as usual threats from the Kremlin. As General Breedlove pointed out that in the event of problems with the Russian army, NATO would complete its mission in a few days.

    Chris Leach -> Canadianidol, 13 July 2014 2:50pm

    If the Mexican army, fighting a civil war with pro-USA Mexicans, fired shells that killed American civilians in Texas....would the resulting bluster from the White House be "threats"? Or justifiable anger?

    I suppose the question is moot, because were that to happen a US puppet would carreid into Mexico Citty on the shoulders of United States Marines by the end of the week.

    RussianFriend -> Canadianidol, 13 July 2014 2:54pm

    Whatever Gen Breedlove says, this does not mean that Moscow should permit artillery shells falling on its territory and killing people in their private houses. At this moment, the task of paramount importance is to make it unambiguously clear both to the Kiev clique that has gone off the handle and to its smug overseas patrons that such actions won't go unpunished.

    Urobulos -> Chris Leach, 13 July 2014 5:03pm

    Problem is no one has actually shown it was the Ukrainian army that fired the shots.

    Both sides have heavy artillery.

    What Ukraine could gain from this is a sense of satisfaction from prickling the Kremlin. Not sure this is enough to risk a Russian invasion, even if you believe that the Ukrainian army is the reincarnation of the SS.

    What the rebels can get from shelling Russian territory is a possible Russian invasion, which at this stage is the last thing that can save them from death in combat or execution.

    I don't know who fired the shots, it's possible that the Ukrainian army is simply incompetent or some local commander is being crazy, but I find it interesting how so many people here know for a fact that it was the Ukrainian military.

    thefeck, 13 July 2014 2:46pm

    Nothing irreversible, no irrevocables, as far as the Kiev higher ups are concerned. Remember that military appointee sworn in without really signing it? That's what they have relied upon--Facebook channeled ordinances, virtualized liability, and virtually no accountability other than Psaki style cop-outs and Biden mentored aye ayes. Oh, and pointing to a sheer breach of orphans right to land, never mind their right to life being waived by those selfsame FB decrees. And sympathy, sympathy, and more humanitarian assistance for the Kiev ops. They strive for democracy, mind you, lest Putin come and grab your bungalow north of Londonderry. These days, their media have outmatched themselves: it is argued all the while there's no room for democracy and soothsaying (sic!) when waging a war on your enemy, domestic and outer alike. I was at a loss presuming that was some kind of sarcasm or self-irony at first. You wish.

    maninBATHTUB, 13 July 2014 2:54pm

    Who would benefit from shells hitting houses inside Russia's borders from Ukraine?

    The Ukrainian army ?? or The pro Russian separatists who are calling everyday for Russia to come to their aid??

    Chirpoevec maninBATHTUB, 13 July 2014 3:07pm

    Americans may be? Or whoever want to provoke Russia?

    Craig Riley maninBATHTUB, 13 July 2014 3:08pm

    Very much the same point raised about the firing on protestors during the original Maiden protests which led to the coup.

    However, there are three factions at work here, you have the Ukrainian army, who I agree, makes for a pretty awful strategy to shell Russian territory, the rebels, who it is true could benefit from drawing Russia into the dispute. However, their tactics in the fight so far have never shown that they are willing to consider anyone as targets who are not directly engaging them militarily. They've even been shown to give aid to the Ukrainian army if injured.

    Finally we have the Right Sector and other far-right militant groups working in a loose alliance with the Ukrainian army. They have been promoting the fiercest hatred of anything Russian. Their goal is the complete eradication of any Russian elements from Ukraine. Even ethnic-Russian Ukrainian citizens. They seem convinced that they have international backing to their cause, and it's equally possible that they'd punch above their weight by targetting Russian soil.

    Which I imagine, is why Russia is keen to investigate the matter fully before any measures or consequences are decided upon.

    donkeyshit maninBATHTUB, 13 July 2014 3:08pm

    apart from "who benefits" (i.e. nobody), it might simply be a reality that indeed, ukrainian army shells have hit russian territory.

    RussianFriend -> maninBATHTUB, 13 July 2014 3:10pm

    And who might benefit from the shelling residential blocks in Slavyansk, Luhansk and other places -- a measure totally senseless unless you want to make popuilation vanish from a certain tettirory? Well but someone did...

    ProfRatBaggy, 13 July 2014 2:58pm

    So the American bison continues to provoke the Russian bear into a war in Ukraine.

    nishville -> ProfRatBaggy, 13 July 2014 4:31pm

    I am under the impression that it would be difficult to find anybody in Russia dumb enough to fall for that. Why should they? All they have to do is wait and watch the forming of Ukraines own North Ireland - whats not to like?

    Of course, none of the principal players are concerned with the amount of casualties except in terms of PR damage control.

    Martin1008, 13 July 2014 3:04pm

    yes if Russia cannot send peacekeepers to protect people in east Ukraina then I agree with comments that atleast they should destroy any potencial weaponry closed to their borders.

    What is going now is great shame on west. the US oversteped here, they can do in far east or africa but not on the europe ground, their reputation will suffer amongst EU citizens..you will see how it isolate the US from minds of people here

    Chirpoevec, 13 July 2014 3:04pm

    I suppose, Americans won`t mind Russia to carry out a reasonable number of moderate and measured pacifying measures?.. Probably they can even have Putin`s word that he will not exceed Israel in... you know... measuring.

    Bulagen, 13 July 2014 3:05pm

    Obviously, this is a planned provocation. Despite the capture of Slavyansk and Kramatorsk Ukrainian puppets uncle Sam understand that their operation is likely to fail.

    From the point of view of image it is better to get beaten by Army of Russia, than by its own citizens from Southeast...

    Moreover, the involvement of Russia in Ukrainian conflict this mega task of the U.S. state Department. Their aim is to tear off Europe from Russia to undermine the business as in Europe thus in Russia and to clear economical field in Europe for American corporations which are laying in crisis.

    firstgeordie Bulagen, 13 July 2014 5:21pm

    "Europe is open for American Corporations" which part of the world are you from? It is called international commerce and if Russia had any commerce that was worth having it come to Europe too

    Bulagen firstgeordie, 13 July 2014 7:28pm

    You know... There is a subtle point... Is settled communications, business processes, a certain stability of interaction... When vis major, stability is crumbling. It needs in time to switch to the organization of interaction with new partners, and it is well when one of them exists... But changeover requires time, and this delay in execution of obligations, claims of customers, fines and other troubles. Additionally, there are certain critical areas in which suppliers are located exclusively in Russia (for example, titanium billets). While Europeans are heroically to solve the problem of their place in the market with pleasure will take us corporations and banks. Do You understand what I mean? And well, if it will calm You... I Admit, I'm from Russia. :) But the logic is the concept which has no nationality.

    retsdon, 13 July 2014 3:05pm

    Fighting at Tripoli airport; a great swathe of the Middle East from Syria to Iraq at war; civil war in Ukraine; and women and children being bombed in their homes in Gaza. There are millions of people whose lives are, right at this moment, in turmoil.

    And why? Because America and its sidekicks chose to 'help' them.
    You would think that the pattern should be obvious, even to the meanest intelligence.

    But no, Putin is a threat to peace. Well, if you're credulous to the point of imbecility he might be....

    DomesticExtremist, 13 July 2014 3:06pm

    Well, the Russians only need look to the Israeli response to Gazan rockets to have ample justification
    for any response. Looking forward to the headline 'Russia under renewed attack from Poroschenko rockets'.

    Hanwell123, 13 July 2014 3:09pm

    Even Hague is saying Israel should hold off but nobody is telling Kiev to stop the slaughter despite the recent "accord" with the EU meaning Ukraine would have little choice but to do what it is told. No, the EU is happy to see these shocking events taking place in its own backyard - so long as the media don't make too much of a fuss. And they aren't...so that's fine!

    ProfRatBaggy Hanwell123, 13 July 2014 3:12pm

    They want to catch the Russian bear into the trap of protecting its borders and then come down on them hard as invaders.

    Whereas Hamas is always guilty even if the West gets around eventually to saying that the numbers of coffins is perhaps sufficient.

    Hanwell123, 13 July 2014 3:12pm

    Over lunch today a friend asked why America doesn't threaten Israel with sanctions to stop it's murder and mayhem in the same way Russia is kept out of the war in Ukraine. There was a baffled silence followed by a single hollow laugh.

    PeterlooSunset . 13 July 2014 3:13pm

    Bear-baiting is so barbaric.
    AlfredHerring , 13 July 2014 3:13pm
    Russia's foreign ministry says the Ukrainian army is responsible for the shelling that killed a man inside Russian territory, warning that the incident could have "irreversible consequences".


    If I were a 'separatist' who wanted Russia to intervene I would launch a few rockets at some Russian village myself.
    ProfRatBaggy AlfredHerring , 13 July 2014 3:15pm
    No. You overlook that there have numerous verified incidents of the Ukrainian army shelling border posts. It's a whole pattern of provocation.
    FirstAmendment1789 AlfredHerring 13 July 2014 3:17pm
    doesnt it occur to you that if the Russians had any wish to intervene they could have done so months ago?

    MichaelRivero, 13 July 2014 3:14pm

    Poroshenko WANTS a reaction from Russia, to allow the US to directly militarily intervene in Ukraine. That is why Poroshenko has been carrying out deliberate provocations such as driving an APC into Russian territory and abandoning it there, overflights, and the shelling of border crossings. Poroshenko will go on provoking Russia until Russia responds. Then the western media will declare Russia as the aggressor and try to make everyone forget Ukraine struck first, just as they are even now trying to obscure the fact that Israel started the current conflict in Gaza and claim HAMAS is the aggressor.

    And let us not forget that the crisis in Ukraine actually started back in January when Ukraine's elected government was forced from power by a foreign-backed coup for rejecting an "offer" to merge with the European Union.

    Alcimar Luiz Callegari MichaelRivero, 13 July 2014 3:22pm

    You are 100% right!. That's all that NATO wants! But I think Russians will not bite the bait. They, instead of, will reinforce the militias with more men and better heavy artillery. It seems that Donetsk airport will fall to militia's hand asap.

    Not forgetting that it is a kind of war that will last years!

    icurahuman2, 13 July 2014 3:19pm

    "For every soldier's life, the militants will pay with dozens and hundreds of their own," said Ukraine's president, Petro Poroshenko after Friday's attack.

    Reprisals? I thought that a military action was for winning a conflict not "repaying" soldier's deaths with greater numbers on the oppositions side. Repisals are a war crime if I'm not mistaken.

    rodney9 icurahuman2, 13 July 2014 4:14pm

    I'm waiting for C. Ashton to justify this latest fanatical outburst of Poroshenko's and discover how this remark completely correspond's to accepted European Foreign Policy.
    In reality it is something we heard from well known figures in World War II. What was the logic? For every German soldier killed.....a hundred would be shot?
    How sad to think the EU is in bed with such people.

    Manolo Torres rodney9, 13 July 2014 4:42pm

    European Policies are very flexible. One year no one should relate to members of Svoboda because of their neo-nazi ideology, the next year they congratulate an illegal government with many Svoboda members on it

    christopher22, 13 July 2014 3:19pm

    I had a feeling something like this might happen while Putin is away in South America

    The American neo-cons don't miss a trick do they ?

    Of course all the morons applauding the Ukrainian neo-nazis might wish to pause and think what this could mean if Russia respond and wipe them out

    The sad thing is that the thugs are going to have to be put back in the box by force sooner or later and it is highly unlikely that either the EU or US are going to step up and admit their mistake.

    WE should all know from personal experience that scum that will attack unarmed civilians will not slope quietly away now that they have had a taste of pushing people around As the shell firing into Russia proves, these people are not the smartest (especially if they think America will rush to their aid militarily)

    burnageblue11 christopher22, 13 July 2014 3:34pm

    Funny, I thought the same thing. The US government exploited the Olympics to their advantage in the Ukraine. Putin out off the Country was asking for trouble. I don't believe Kiev wants peace. In my opinion they are nothing more than a Monkey dancing for the Organ Grinder ( US). The US government is determined to instigate a proxy confrontation.

    Putin is actually doing his damnedest to avoid it, unfortunately in my opinion it is all in vain, conflict is all but inevitable. His inaction is being perceived as weakness. The forces from Kiev are getting more and more brazen, he is unwittingly emboldening them. This could be another test to see what they can get away with.

    SapunovD, 13 July 2014 3:19pm

    It's very interesting, why the "Ukraine's president" had cancelled his visit to Brazil at the last minute? Instead of getting a chance to meet Putin face-to-face, try to settle the problem peacefully by the talks, he suddenly remained at home and on the spot Ukrain's shelling killed one and injured two in Russia and "Ukrainian army" began massive attack on Lugansk. And I wonder, who really has aggressive intentions? Who really only talks about peace, but makes war?

    Andy2222 , 13 July 2014 3:21pm
    A woman, refugee from Slavyansk, mother of 4, talks - video:

    When [Kiev] army entered the town, there was not one volunteer [fighting against the junta] there. The army started shooting here and there, maraudering, [...] rape, kill children.

    They nailed a 3-year-old boy, son of a volunteer, on a cross, like Christ. His mother and other people lost consciousness. The kid died in one and half our, then they tied the mother to a tank and dragged her...

    I am from Zakarpatie. Even my mother says that she would kill me [because my husband is a volunteer]. I am not afraid. If I didn't have my kids, I would get weapon and fight myself."

    "For three months I became of stone."

    http://www.1tv.ru/news/world/262978

    Andy2222 Andy2222 , 13 July 2014 3:34pm
    The journalist asked her "Aren't you afraid to speak about that?"

    The woman said: "Let people from all over the world know how these [Kiev army] violate humans. Because nobody believes it. Nobody knows. There were phosphor bombs. There were those fragment mines. There were bodies everywhere, smell, there was no place to collect them all, the morgue didn't work. The people would not believe..."

    Madranon , 13 July 2014 3:21pm
    Russian speaking Ukrainians are having their lives being made unbearable, they're fleeing in their thousands to Russia. Many more who stay will be treated as second class citizens and eventually also go east. This is approved ethnic cleansing, tolerated by the US and UK. However, it is not worth a conflict that will only needlessly waste more lives both Russian and Ukrainian. Better for Russia to accept the refugees, displaced civilians. The last laugh will be when they make careers and wealth for Russia and not Ukraine.

    OtchenStrana, 13 July 2014 3:22pm

    Did the Ukrainian artillery target the "wrong" Donetsk? Or was it a misfire?

    jonsid OtchenStrana , 13 July 2014 3:30pm

    The Ukrainian forces attacking the East are not regular troops - they are a mixture of special pivate armies financed by Ukrainian billionaires and right-sector fanatics determined to wipe out anything or anyone not Ukrainian. In the Ukraine they are now running the show and terrifying and endangering the whole nation as frankly they have no idea of the consequences of any of their actions.

    Nevertheless a few of the more deranged people here support everything they do - regardless of how many innocents are killed.

    burnageblue11, 13 July 2014 3:23pm

    If Russia does respond very forcefully to this incident. Reading the International outcry in the media should make very good reading. How anyone will be able to condemn Russia with what is going on in Palestine is beyond me. Comparisons will undoubtedly be made.

    Putin if clever, should fully exploit this situation to his advantage. He could do irreparable damage to the Kiev forces amassing in the East, reducing their capability to wage war. He need only cite protecting his borders to kill without prejudice.

    As the saying goes, what is good for the Goose is good for the Gander.

    mary8stewart, 13 July 2014 3:24pm

    Usual anti Russia racism.

    The West thinks that any killings of east Ukrainians by the official or unofficial Kiev (Ukraine) army are ok. But if the Ukraine protesters kill any of the Ukraine army then it talks of sanctions etc.

    How sad and short sighted of the West to not work for peace through negotiation of a federal state system for Ukraine.

    Wojtek Sokol mary8stewart, 13 July 2014 3:36pm

    i am from america and i do not hate russia...

    your assumption is based on the news you watch. most of americans dont hate or have racism towards russia.

    i for one understand that we all are part of the same family. you are my brother...why would i hate you?

    Матвей Тарасов Wojtek Sokol, 13 July 2014 4:12pm

    This is not about ordinary people. But about those in power in US/EU. They still treat us as enemies and think that killing any russian is good. I'm not sure if 'racism' is proper word yet it's a chauvinism for sure.

    WearyofthisSht, 13 July 2014 3:32pm

    Mr Lysenko described the accusations as "total nonsense".

    "The forces of the anti-terrorist operation do not fire on the territory of a neighbouring country and they do not fire on residential areas," he said.


    Oh yeah? Well, there are just a few hundred videos floating around youtube showing the exact opposite.

    SadGirl, 13 July 2014 3:48pm

    Western media (and the Guardian is not an exception) respond promptly only to those events that have something to do with Russia.

    But what about Ukrainian Donetsk and its region? Every day civilians die. I start my day with catching up with the news in my country and every single day begins with the death toll. I can't just can't make a peace with those scenes of horror I see on the news, can't adjust my conscience like the absolute majority of people here (in Ukraine) who are absolutely at ease. Here are some links from Ukrainian news site Кореспондент.net (again only Ukrainian sources to avoid accusations in Russian propaganda.

    1. July, 11-12. There are some photos, a video and information of destruction and killed civilians in Petrovsky district of Donetsk (9 people and a 10-year old child) and Maryinka of Donetsk region (officially 5 killed)

    http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/politics/3391825-razrushenyia-v-donetske-foto-posledstvyi-obstrela#8

    2. July 12, village of coal mine Trudovskaya (12 killed)

    http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/events/3391889-v-rezultate-obstrela-poselka-shakhty-trudovskaia-pohybly-12-chelovek

    If you bother to translate with the help of Google you'll find I don't distort the given information.
    Actually It's far from the beginning of the list (I mean Slov'yansk, Lugansk, Kramatorsk...) which will be continued, for sure.

    Don't say that it isn't happening, I live here and know that it definitely is. It's been happening for a long time for those who didn't voluntarily opt to be blind and there are very few of them.
    Why do I post knowing that nobody cares? Because my dead citizens whose relatives never got any official condolence deserve at list a bit of media spotlight

    StatusFoe, 13 July 2014 3:57pm

    Russian media is reporting a battalion of 70 Ukrainian tanks has amassed on the outskirts of Luhansk. I think Russian airstrikes against Uraine military are a distinct possibility.

    priceus, 13 July 2014 4:09pm

    Putin should watch the match at home like everybody else - especially with a war on his doorstep.

    The US used Ukraine as a peon to create a flashfire between Russia and the EU - to destroy relations. You have oligarchs and Western economic hitmen on one side and other oligarchs and foreign partisans on the other - why should ordinary Ukrainian people who are just trying to live care to have this war? People don't want to be flogged financially or shot at.

    XeroMan, 13 July 2014 4:24pm

    The USA's fostering of events in the Ukraine is one of the most dangerous games of brinkmanship that they have engaged in for quite some time. While the ultimate goal of reducing Russia's economic and political influence seems easy enough to accomplish, history is replete with great plans that somehow spiralled out of control with unintended consequences. Should Russia respond with military force to the provocations of the Ukrainian army they will be met with crippling sanctions against them and diplomatic isolation. NATO will not support Ukraine militarily should Russia invade, and on paper there is little risk to NATO. So in the end Russia suffers economically and diplomatically, the EU is pulled away from closer ties with Russia and as for Ukraine... well, the US doesn't really care about them anyhow. The US is a clear winner.

    What the Americans seem to forget is that the Russians suffered terribly in WWII, suffering horrendous casualties on their home soil. The fact that NATO has expanded to their borders is a cause for great concern, feeding a deep rooted anxiety concerning the thoughts of invasion. It seems that there is a sense of disdain, even contempt for the Russians in the West since we "defeated" them, and their military has certainly fallen from its formidable heights. I would encourage those who scorn Russia to look at the current state of nuclear arsenals. The website Ploughshares . org has detailed reports on the state of nuclear arms. Consider not just the numbers of warheads (of which Russia has the most), but read the reports. Russia is past the halfway point of completely modernizing its nuclear forces. They have the most, they have the newest. Scoff at their military out of blind arrogance, but should it ever come to blows between NATO and Russia and NATO wipes the floor with Russia's conventional forces it would be a very BAD thing. They are not modernizing their nuclear arsenal for show alone. They will not tolerate another invading force on Russian soil.

    It really is sad to see so many cocky, arrogant commenter's disrespecting Russia. Kids who have no conception about what it was like to live through the cold war I guess. They'd probably laugh at the scene in War Games (1983) when the screens lit up with Russian nuclear missile launches. The possibility of a nuclear confrontation seems impossible for them to comprehend. I suppose that is why it is so easy to provoke Russia, to encourage a patsy state to kill a Russian citizen on Russian soil, and to kill Russian speaking Ukrainians on the border of Russia.

    I certainly hope Russia does not invade, but the cross border shelling has happened before. If my premise is correct, it will keep happening until Russia is forced to act, and when Russia does it will suffer for it. It's dumb, short-sighted American arrogance. The saddest part is that it seems like such a great idea. On paper at least.

    SadGirl XeroMan, 13 July 2014 4:32pm

    I can't rid of the feeling it's the beginning of a bigger war. I'm not panic, just observant.

    Your comment is brilliant.

    MrPaulDavies, 13 July 2014 4:26pm

    The latest provocation on the Russia/Ukraine border, for that is without doubt what it is, seems to reflect Kiev's failure to maintain the momentum following the tactical retreat from Slavyansk, by the Seperatists, last weekend. It seems with each military setback on the ground, Kiev takes up the same default position - provoke or lambast Moscow in order to rekindle western condemnation (and future support if needed militarily) of Russia.

    I often think of events during the reunification or annexation (depends on your perspective) of Crimea with Russia a few months ago. A column of Ukraine soldiers stood face-to-face with a group of Crimean separatists on a road outside Savastapol. The world's media was present when out came the cry from Ukraine soldiers in English "the Americans are coming". That was the intention, of course. And still is.

    Now just prior to this incident on the border, its most notable that President Poroshenkos so-called "nasty surprise" appears to have back-fired. On Friday
    a column of his troops, on their way to deliver the "surprise", came under attack - suffering significant casualties. And amid signs Kiev's troops are being pushed back it is clear Kiev has been halted once more by the separatists. Hence, the latest attack and provocation on the border comes as no surprise.

    Meanwhile, President Putin is unlikely to rise to this latest incident with a military response. In international terms, his statesman-like refusal to 'react' to these events, has won him support and a certain amount of sympathy - particularly from non-western aligned nations. Moreover, this latest provocation, followed by a measured, but firm, diplomatic response will only garner more support internationally.

    Whilst President Putin strengthens his position by 'doing nothing' however, his counterpart in Kiev does not have that same luxury. President Poroshenko is left to the elements, quite literally. The winds are not in has favour as he overlooks his lands. The rebellion in the east shows no sign of easing. His economy is broken and reliant on loans. And as the winter approaches he has the problem of securing gas supplies for his country. Then, of course, he has the small matter of the immense cost of the conflict which he and his compatriots in the Kiev government have failed to resolve.

    If the Ukraine President can overcome his apparent ego, he will consider that the future is grim. He will see that, above all at this moment, a diplomatic and
    political solution is absolutely essential and that a "pleasant surprise" (rather than a "nasty" one) from him would start to roll back the dark clouds that are
    threatening on the national horizon.

    A face-to-face meeting therefore, with representatives of the uprising, in a neutral location, would be just such a welcome initiative.

    DavidofLeicester MrPaulDavies, 13 July 2014 4:53pm

    The government has not been pushed back but seem more to be keeping their distance from the front line because the Separatists win hands down when it comes to close quarter combat. Kiev's only effective weapons are missiles and aircraft and we've all seen the deadly effect they've had on homes, schools, businesses, hospitals, an orphanage and shops but very little damage to the Separatists or their morale. However, unless the Separatists start to receive heavier weapons and more ammo they will eventually be defeated, but at what cost to the new government and the country at large. This government will be hated forever more by the people in the East because of the indiscriminate killings, destruction of homes and businesses and the constant refusal to sit down and negotiate. Mr Paul Davies is right, a face to face meeting is essential for both sides but the government seems to prefer war to jaw and damn the consequences.

    Alcimar Luiz Callegari, 13 July 2014 4:35pm

    There's an important thing that is not being taken in account by Kiev. The Donetsk and Lugansk armies can attack Kiev anytime they want. For there's a war going on between the parties, thus there's no need for ''provocation''.
    At the moment East is in the defense position. Sooner or later they will realize that the best defense is attacking. Then, they might send commands to Kiev and turn the scenario similar to Iraq. Hit and run. This will probably be done in winter under very heavy weather condition. But can be done earlier if Russia decides to help the commands with logistic(drones, satellite position, guns, bombs,etc).

    Oskar Jaeger Alcimar Luiz Callegari, 13 July 2014 4:38pm

    Will they still be there in winter?

    pigsdontfly, 13 July 2014 4:53pm

    So, after we all know:
    -about the coup in Ukraine and Nuland's phone conversation,
    -about the fact the Crimeea was not "invaded" but annexed by Russia at the request of the population,
    -about the many US official's visits in Ukraine to "advise" the so called "interim government" after the coup,
    -about the Right Sektor,
    -about the National Guard that nobody really knows under who's command actually is and who exactly are the members,
    -about the hundreds of civilians killed by Ukrainian forces,
    -about the fact that the so called "insurgents" or "terrorists" are actually ukrainian citizens for the most part which would put the Ukrainian government under a genocide accusation,
    -about the fact that there is no proof that the Russian army is involved except for the propaganda,
    -about the fact that the Russian army didn't intervene even when it had the Parliament support and, even more, Putin asked the Parliament to revoke that support,
    -about the fact that this is the second incident on Russia's territory caused by Ukrainian forces and it might be reason enough to start a real war,
    ...after we know all of this there are still people out there accusing Russia and Putin...?! Unbelievable...

    ID5677229, 13 July 2014 5:22pm

    Putin is such a pathetic apology for a human being. He has permitted a stream of heavy munitions, including tanks and rocket launchers, to cross from Russia into East Ukraine. He knows Ukraine is desperate to stop the flow of munitions and terrorists into Ukraine from Russia, and consequently that fighting on the East Ukraine-Russia border is inevitable. Anyone with three functioning brain cells could predict that the occasional stray shell from Ukraine would land in Russia in such circumstances. Yet he moans as if the incident were everyone's fault but his own.

    By lifting the phone Putin could stop all fighting on the border in an instant: he has just to close the flow of terrorists and munitions into Ukraine. He doesn't do it because he judges that war in East Ukraine is in his own interests: he judges it will increase his power and influence in the region.

    Had the Russian people been worth its salt it would have rid the country of such a prick years ago.

    Kal El ID5677229, 13 July 2014 5:38pm

    Obama is such a pathetic apology for a human being.

    He has permitted US intervention to overthrow a democratic society in Ukraine with the aim of capturing Russia's Sevastopol and installing NATO bases in mainland Ukraine.

    He applauds civilian death and says the Ukr Govt is acting with "measuredly".

    He applauds fleeing refugees and wheels out Psaki to claim that they aren't refugees at all, just people on holiday who are obviously running to try and increase their VO2 max.

    He undoubtedly sends arms discreetly along with the consignments of non lethal aid.

    Yup, he is a thoroughly despicable being and if the people in the US had been worth their salt they would have never voted the prick in the 1st time never mind the 2nd one.

    Kal El, 13 July 2014 5:28pm

    The Ukr forces shelled Slavyansk, killed civilians, denied it and blamed the "rebels".
    On Friday the Ukr forces shelled Marinka, killed civilians, denied it and blamed the "rebels".
    The Ukr forces fired a shell inside Russia, killed a man, denied it, and will almost certainly blame the "rebels".

    Is there ANYTHING that these spineless cowardly cun*s WILL take responsibility for ?

    Maybe Russia should send a death squad in to liquidate a few high profile Ukr ministers, then just deny it and blame "infighting in the Ukr Government".

    Live by the (lying) sword, die by the (lying) sword.

    tanyushka, 13 July 2014 5:30pm

    if Poroshenko says that for every Ukranian soldier killed 100 from Novorossiya will be killed, considering that according to international organizations there have been more than twice as many civilians as military deaths in this war, one has to asume that he pland to murder 46.000 civilians to make us pay for his precious 23 dead soldiers, right?

    doesn't all of this sound to you like the typical SS response to the partisans resistance in WW 2?

    Hanwell123 tanyushka, 13 July 2014 7:31pm

    The Nazi's were brilliant with violent language. Lost the war though when Ivan hit back.

    warmongerPoro, 13 July 2014 5:33pm

    http://youtu.be/LOpNfA2ma50
    16 years old streamer Vlad has been arrested by Ukrainian authorities in Odessa on 25th of June 2014 in connection with allegations of collaborating with the rebels of South Eastern Ukraine. Vlad is widely known for the live streaming of junta's crimes in Mariupol in May-June 2014.

    moongibbon Pavel Y , 13 July 2014 6:40pm


    Stopfake.org, very slick-looking website, run by the Mohyla School of Journalism. And who is donating to the Kiev-Mohyla foundation, based in Chicago, which has a former US Ambassador on its BoD?

    The National Endowment for Democracy (aka the US State Dept) is pouring millions of dollars into Ukraine, including donations to the Kiev-Mohyla Academy. But yeah I'm sure it's all completely impartial and so on, just like the US State Dept itself.


    prem288855 Pavel Y, 13 July 2014 6:47pm

    And Ukraine is now run by thugs like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOpNfA2ma50&feature=youtu.be

    tiojo, 13 July 2014 5:34pm

    The short term military outcome is pretty much irrelevant here. President Poroshenko, by using military force against his own Ukrainian population in heavily populated areas has ensured the further alienation of the east of the country from the Kiev government. Russia by economic and political means will continue to destabilise Ukraine.

    All this will lead to the inevitable eventual break up of the country. It will happen in the coming months or years. The sensible course of action would be to negotiate a peaceful path towards that end.

    Hanwell123 tiojo, 13 July 2014 7:29pm

    Absolutely right. You can't shell a besieged city of 1 million people and expect them to forget about it because you can drive a tank through the centre. The Partisan war comes next. Does Kiev have the stamina and money to wage a 10 year war? If not they are on a hiding to nothing


    quattero, 13 July 2014 5:36pm

    1/1/2014. The Ukrainian armed forces ( which had until very recently been largely conscripted), are they wholly from western Ukraine?, is that really likely and if so why?, or do they represent the whole of the country?. If they represent the whole country, will they really be taking part in the bombing of the east?. It is reported some parts are being kept away from any action. Talk is the only option.

    Trudi Goater quattero, 13 July 2014 5:40pm

    Kiev isn't only using the regular forces it's heavily reliant on the right sector to and I would think they have no problem with bombing anyone.

    truecomrade, 13 July 2014 5:46pm

    my grandfather died fighting against fascists, and now the us and eu stand on the same platform with them ;; are they going to become part of the eu ,if so I want my country [uk] out....

    prem288855 Paul Moore, 13 July 2014 6:33pm

    Svoboda AKA the NaSi party controls most of the military apparatus. And there are several Right Sector dominated units in the National Guard. So yes - they run a hell of a lot in Kiev.


    Johnny Kent ElvisInWales, 13 July 2014 7:45pm

    It's so obvious that the US has said to Ukraine to keep pushing Russia-so does that mean the US wants war with Russia?

    Hanwell123 Johnny Kent, 13 July 2014 9:24pm

    America wants to be able to impose full sanctions. The EU doesn't for very good reasons of their own! But powerful as they may be that counts for nothing in Washington. What a shameful state Europe is in!

    ElvisInWales Johnny Kent, 13 July 2014 10:33pm

    If they do, then its a pretty foolish policy!

    Playing hard ball for high stakes against a very nuclear capable country is pure insanity, the piss taking that went on with our elected reps towards Russia is breathtakingly pathetic, both Kerry and Hague made look proper twats in the process.

    I think after Libya a good portion of the electorate woke up and realised nothings changed, we see our media complicit, compliant and willing to spout out anything that is required of them, it is worth noting how this rag is not allowing comments in regards to the crisis inside Gaza, it appears they are affraid to walk the talk and the narrative must not be interupted or questioned.

    Fingers crossed though its not the case but there is only so much pisstaking any one can take and bullies only know when to stop when they get a bloodied nose, hence my desire for Lavrov to nut both Kerry and Hague and tell them to grow the fuck up or fuck off and if they want some more they can have it as that is the only language our leaders here will actually listen too until then they will go around the world behaving like over inflated peacocks on crack cocaine.

    Hanwell123 Paul Moore, 13 July 2014 9:20pm

    If Russia hadn't fought Finland which was being run by the pro Nazi Mannerheim then Leningrad wouldn't have survived the siege as the border was just 40 km away and Finland controlled Lake Lagoda. It wasn't until April 1945 before Finland changed sides and began liquidating Germans without warning! NB there was a lot of criticism of Germany for it's handling of the siege; random shelling into such a large city was thought to be a war crime...is the Chocolate man listening?

    StatusFoe, 13 July 2014 5:52pm

    More reaction from official Moscow::

    Leonid Slutskii Head of Duma Committe for Euroasian Integration and Relations Between Ethnic Russians speaking to Interfax, cited by NTV.

    "The citizen killed is our first victim of this war, which to set the record straight, is already underway. But this is not a war between Russia and Ukraine. It's a fight of civilizations for the Russian World and for the world's political architecture of the 21st Century and whether it shall be unipolar or multi-polar. This war which is being forced upon us is a war for our principles, and if we react there will of course be terrible losses and the deaths of thousands.

    Nevertheless he says "Russia will not let its hand be forced by such provocations. Nobody in the world today needs a third world war".

    Howveer, he goes on to say the Uktainian army's plan is "after dealing with Donetsk and Lugansk, to descend on Crimea," and that the Ukrainian army is "definitely not being controlled by Kiev."

    "From this perspective, we can no longer tolerate such a situation and when blood is spilt on Russian territory, we will have to respond with harsh measures," adding that measures will be taken after an investigation which will take "minimum time".

    So I reckon Russian airstrikes on the Ukrainian army will begin as soon as Putin's back from the football.


    rac1222 StatusFoe, 13 July 2014 5:57pm

    I suggest strict reaction by border guard troops on provocations (I mean if someone shoots at you of there are shells hitting your ground you shoot to kill or destroy the attacking mortars), but no direct invasion on Ukrainian territory by any means.

    retsdon StatusFoe, 13 July 2014 6:37pm

    The American administration has some very dangerous people in it at this point in time. Not only are they belligerent to the point of criminality, they are stupid to boot. It's the second part that is so dangerous. It would seem that they actually believe that they can threaten Russia's strategic interests, have their proxies conduct a war on Russia's border, engage in economic warfare against Russia - and Russia will just roll over and take it.

    These clowns are walking us into another world war.

    Caroline Louise, 13 July 2014 6:01pm

    I hope people understand why Russia is so desperate to avoid being dragged into this war, and what it will mean if they are dragged in. Russia and NATO will be fighting a war in Europe. A war that is proxy on one side only and barely even that. It will be the most dangerous development for world peace this century. Maybe since 1962.

    And it will be a war deliberately brought to us by the US for its own insane ends.

    mary8stewart, 13 July 2014 6:22pm

    FAILURE OF EU DIPLOMACY

    The civil war in Ukraine is a demonstration of the failure of EU diplomats to do their job properly.

    Firstly, without our agreement, they meddle in Ukraine. Then they complain about any deaths in Maidan but remain silent about the deaths in east Ukraine.

    The official Ukraine army and the uncontrollable unofficial Kiev army are killing a lot of people in east Ukraine. Some of them are civilians and children. Is this GENOCIDE??

    The EU/US/UN should condemn these killings and rapidly work towards a peaceful negotiated settlement of a federal Ukraine.

    With soft borders between the different states. Over time this would result in a stable state.

    This would certainly be the best solution for Ukraine. Though the West may have a different selfish opinion!

    Nenad Vidovic mary8stewart, 13 July 2014 8:08pm

    Actually is not a failure of EU diplomacy. There is no such thing as a EU diplomacy.EU it's just a lapdog of US foreign policy where unelected Brussels bureaucracy and 24/7 spied national leaders repeat what Washington serve them.

    PatriotUA, 13 July 2014 6:24pm

    Man, if this shell had landed on Israeli territory from, say, Syria, we'd be discussing aviation strikes on Ukrainian military positions, not some laughable "statement of grave concern" from the Kremlin.


    Trabecula, 13 July 2014 6:50pm

    It's unbelievably shocking how western media is always steady portray the separatists as the "bad guys" but always unable to point out the finger at the Ukrainian side, even when they obviously are the ones shelling Donetsk and it's sorroundings, claiming civil, innocent lives! After all, it's just like in Israel, where 3 tragic murders seem to be a reasonable excuse to kill hundreds with the west's conivence!

    prem288855 Trabecula, 13 July 2014 6:53pm

    Laws don't apply to the you-know-whos. To even suggest such a thing is a thought crime.

    Kal El, 13 July 2014 7:10pm

    Even as a Pro-Kremlin (at least in this conflict) Westerner.

    Putin's promise to safeguard the lives of ethnic Russian's looks absolutely shocking when Russian's are killed inside Russian territory and all that (at least so far) happens in retaliation is a few "words" of condemnation.

    Russian citizens WON'T be happy with just "words" when shells are landing inside Russia and killing them. If The Kremlin doesn't get its act together over this, and quickly, it could well find itself suffering a big backlash at home.

    Hanwell123 Kal El, 13 July 2014 7:13pm

    Putin's responsibility is to Russia first and he can't risk a major economic onslaught which will come if Russia dares help those in the East

    jonsid , 13 July 2014 7:55pm
    We can only get an occasional glimpse of the Kiev attitude towards the people in the East, this is the opinion of a Ukrainian political analyst quoting Ukrainian military experts. I find it quite bizarre.
    Surround a position. The first phase – announce in a speaker that the civilian population must leave the territory in 1-3 days, after that everyone in the territory will be considered to be a collaborator of the enemy.

    There's more.

    http://inforesist.org/en/total-wipe-out-is-the-only-way-to-liberate-donbas/

    GuyGagne, 13 July 2014 8:02pm

    A commenter called wombatman wrote this in response to another Ukraine news story:

    Sippenhaft is the principle of families sharing the responsibility for a crime committed by one of its members. It is a form of collective punishment. Used by Nazi Germany, and it is revolting that something almost identical is happening now, by carried out by states who should know better and are backed by the West, and the USA in particular.

    It's very well put and reflects my own opinion, so I've quoted his comment instead of paraphrasing.

    I was also recently made aware of this:

    http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukraines-land-agency-give-land-to-soldiers-in-the-east-for-free-352100.html

    According to Kyiv Post, the fighters of the so-called "anti-terrorist operation" will be given land in the east, for free. It makes you wonder whose land they will be gifted (presumably the land of those who have fled from, or died as a result of the indiscriminate shelling of towns and cities?) If the story is accurate, then surely this is a policy equivalent to ethnic cleansing?

    Ambricourt GuyGagne, 13 July 2014 8:15pm

    The Ukrainian government imitates the methods of nineteenth-century Washington - motivating their soldiers for indiscriminate killing of Indians and then using the soldiers to settle on Indian lands.

    retsdon Caroline Louise , 13 July 2014 8:44pm

    Is there even the pretence of a legal foundation?

    Since they got away with it in Libya, the US hegemonists and their allies and proxies have dropped the mask completely now. Refugees are now tourists, armed thugs are peaceful demonstrators, shelling civilians is defending territorial integrity, etc,etc

    They don't care that their lies are unbelievable, the same way that the state police in a dictatorship don't care that the 'he fell from the window' line is unbelievable. It's the arrogance and contempt of the audience displayed only by powerful people with black hearts

    Popeyes 13 July 2014 8:05pm
    Washington figured that with some provocation Putin would react the same way he did when Georgia invaded South Ossetia. But, so far, Putin has resisted the temptation to get involved which is why new puppet president Petro Poroshenko has stepped up the provocations by pummeling east Ukraine mercilessly. The Russian government has so far demonstrated a level of restraint but that could all change if Russian citizens are targeted. I don't believe that the US would be so tolerant if Russia were supporting terrorist on their borders.
    Hanwell123 Popeyes 13 July 2014 8:24pm
    The longer it goes on the less likely Putin will react. He has to protect Russia and to fall into this trap would be simply stupid. Leave Kiev to sort out and pay for the mess of their own creation; leave them to sort out the fascists calling the shots; leave the EU to wriggle about how to accommodate international criminals in their O so politically correct monster creation. Putin is not, as is so often said, stupid!
    richard1 13 July 2014 8:12pm
    The end game of this conflict is being played out.

    Putin's total failure in foreign policy will haunt him. He encouraged the Russian separatists, and when they needed help he completely let them down. In the meantime, actively stirring Russian nationalist feelings at home.

    He annexed Crimea - but lost Ukraine, a nation closest to the Russians since the late 17th century. Russia has now (in Europe) become friendless.

    Amazing that these Putinbotts love this guy? he's a complete failure!

    Hanwell123 richard1 13 July 2014 8:19pm
    He lost Ukraine to a coup d'état in February. It would have been criminal of him in terms of Russian history to lose Crimea too! He is on the back foot because the US and the EU are pushing Russia back. It's been European policy for over 300 years.
    Kaiama richard1 13 July 2014 8:20pm
    Looking at it slightly differently, Russia subsidised Ukraine with cheap gas for 22 years and somehow managed to keep a divided country together. 5 minutes after the US involved themselves and it all falls apart.
    Martin1008 13 July 2014 8:30pm
    Comments are not pro Russian because the people are pro Russians, it is because many people here are educated and not brainwashed radicals. Russia and EU has good relationship and strong bussiness interest that is what US is enviouse for.

    Russia is not isolated at all, and their main allies are very powerfull, for exaple India.

    If you study how EU reactions changed in last month:

    1. EU stoped verbal attack on Russia
    2. Appretiation of Poroshenko military campaign decreasing.
    3. After International Bussiness Forun in Petersburg, EU have put no more sanctions against Russia economy but only on UA independent military leaders.
    4. Poroshenko's administration last week declared that EU is becoming reluctant in providing powerful support.

    See the changes, something will happens. Maybe US will continue to pursuit their plan. But east Ukraina will become independent with or without Russia military. No war against Russia is comming, and if US will do, EU is not going to join it. We do not have interest in it.

    Situation may actually become very precise and the duplicity of politics will take place. For instance if Russia military will enter Ukraina the UA will ask for NATO support as already promised by US. If NATO will not enter Kiev may become angry and turn against Europe. So if EU military will enter Ukraina it will not be for fight with Russia but to keep west UA military calm down. Before Russia will intervent there will be agreement on a border lines.

    Doug Salzmann richard1 , 13 July 2014 9:15pm
    Is your failure to understand that "sanctions" against individuals are not sanctions against a nation the result of honest confusion or a simple refusal to understand that which doesn't fit your preconceived worldview?

    As for Pew polls, why would you expect US and European attitudes toward Russia to be other than than negative in the wake of a months-long barrage of blatant propaganda by Western governments and mainstream media?

    "Think of the press as a great keyboard
    on which the government can play."

    ~Joseph Goebbels

    onsid , 13 July 2014 8:41pm
    Some Ukrainians are expressing concern that while it is fine for their "neo-nazi" colleagues to slaughter people in the east there may be problems with them back home in Kiev. The Kiev authorities view seems to be to allow them a free-reign in the ATO and then ban the group once the fighting is over.
    It may be that easy but I doubt it
    SHEKHOVTSOV: Ukrainian neo-Nazis are preparing "a new revolution"

    http://maidantranslations.com/2014/07/12/shekhovstov-ukrainian-neo-nazis-are-preparing-a-new-revolution/

    stevesharrison , 13 July 2014 9:18pm
    Billionaire Oligarch Poroshenko's Regime, supported by World bank / IMF funding: USA / EU Finance & EU / NATO support, is de facto ethncly cleansing Eastern Ukraine of Russian nationals with the Iron Fist of Fascistic Militaristic enthusiasm: Why is the UN Sec Council & Sec Gen Silent when flagarent and gratuitous braech of UN Declarations on Human Rights, Self Determination and Cultural Identity are being breached. The People in Eastern Ukraine are ordinary Civilians, men women and children: Disabled and Elderly. They are being 'pummelled into submission by the Kiev Right Sector and Sovboda led Regime. What is further disquieting is that UK and EU support for Poreshenko's fascistic tactics is being carried out without the consent of European and UK Citizens yet de facto in our name and funded by the UK and EU Taxpayer - This has highlighted a huge democratic deficit whereby UK & EU Citizens can have the nation commit to supporting a Fascistic Regime - including EU and NATO de facto membership - However, our thoughts must be with Innocent Civilians who are in fear of death and destruction by Kiev arms and military de fact funded by the EU / NATO and by consequence, you and I - Disgraceful!!
    Caroline Louise , 13 July 2014 9:19pm
    "We will use military force, unilaterally if necessary, when our core interests demand it. International opinion matters, but our country will never ask permission …"

    Who said this? Was it...

    a. Adolph Hitler

    b. Vladimir Putin

    c. Barack Obama

    Doug Salzmann -> Caroline Louise 13 July 2014 9:28pm
    For those who need a hint, the same speaker said, in the same speech:

    "I believe in American exceptionalism with every fibre of my being."

    NottaBot JimmySands , 14 July 2014 1:08am
    Perhaps not entirely logical but certainly effective. Given that so much of U.S. propaganda is based on an entirely spurious "moral high ground," anything that points out that it's all a pack of lies greatly diminishes the impact of such propaganda.

    You can play the "whataboutery" card, but we will continue to point out that every time the U.S. (metaphorically) opens its mouth, it's lying and dissembling and accusing its enemies of behavior that itself has indulged in, and to a degree that a relatively weak state like Russia could only dream of. Russia intervenes in its "near abroad." The U.S. intervenes everywhere in the world. There really is no comparison between the imperial ambitions (or at least abilities) of the two states.

    This is a reality, even if it's one that is rarely discussed or acknowledged in Western media. So in fact every time you and your cohorts whine about Russian behavior, it's YOU who are engaged in "whataboutery."

    Popeyes, 13 July 2014 9:19pm

    The E.U. is just a minor irritation to Washingon with the US controlling the whole chibang, including NATO which is more than 70% financed by the U.S. Victoria Nuland's comments f...k the E.U when asked if Europe should get more involved in the government coup completely sums up Washington's arrogance and contempt for Europe. That leaves only two players in the game, the U.S. and Russia. Washington are in no hurry to end the conflict and Russia appears to be sitting it out. It is decision time for America, but this requires a vision which appears beyond what the current freaks in power can even begin to contemplate.

    burnageblue11 Popeyes, 13 July 2014 11:16pm

    Pretty much how I see things. All Merkel does is pay lip service to Putin, she may personally even sympathize with his predicament. Before then informing him that the EU official line is simply the same as the US official line, and her hands are tied. They are one and the same. Merkel tries to appear like she is independent off Washington, it is all a charade. The US is the major player in the Ukraine. And the United States will decide where this all goes from here.

    In my opinion the United States is intent on bringing conflict to Europe by hook or by crook for geopolitical reasons. It does not want closer economic ties between Russia and China, EU. This will be to the detriment off the United States. It does not want the new South Stream Pipe Line going on line, already the US is pressurizing Bulgaria.

    The US wants to oversee the de-federalisation and break up of Russia. The US realizes that Russia will only get stronger from here on in, and the time to act is now.

    We are going to war whether we like it or not. The EU will follow the US blindly in to conflict. All we are seeing now is the attempts to spark the conflict. Bombing Russian civilian Houses. If that does not work it will be bombing Russian soldiers. As the US becomes increasingly desperate, we may even see a US Ship sunk in a " False Flag" accusing Russia. Conflict in my opinion is inevitable. Ukraine is being fully exploited.

    MrPaulDavies , 13 July 2014 9:21pm

    To hear some commentators you would believe that this crisis started because former President of Ukraine, Victor Yanakovych, turned his back on the EU and suddenly decided to go with Russia economically.

    This was the line that western media and certain prominent political leaders pushed on the eve of the crisis in November 2013 just before the maidan demonstrators encamped themselves in central Kiev.

    The script then developed to read that the people of Ukraine were desperate to join the EU and unshackle themselves from Moscow. You will remember the newsreels of thousands in Independence Square - a second orange revolution was line being pushed by the west.

    But this was a blatant misrepresentation of the true feelings on the ground. This piece is from the Kiev Post in mid-November just before the maidan protests started and reports on recent opinion polls. Its interesting now, in the light of events since:

    "Ukraine is split practically 50/50 over the accession to the European Union or the Customs Union. Europe is favored by 39 percent of Ukrainians, and 37 percent prefer the Customs Union, said the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology".

    "Some 76 percent of the Ukrainians polled in the middle of this November said they were ready to take part in a referendum on the foreign policy vector".

    "Same as before, the European Union is mostly chosen over the Customs Union in the western and central regions (69 percent vs. 11 percent and 43 percent vs. 27 percent), while the Customs Union is more popular in the southern and eastern regions (51 percent vs. 29 percent and 61 percent vs. 15 percent)".

    GO TO THE ARTICLE HERE

    The most interesting point you should consider is that support FOR Europe had been steadily declining in the months leading up to the Maidan protests. A little longer and Yanakovich might have called a referendum and won it. Thats why the US, EU and certain groups in West and Central Ukraine had to act when they did.

    jonsid -> MrPaulDavies, 13 July 2014 9:41pm

    That's a very interesting link and I genuinely wasn't aware of how low the support for closer EU ties actually was. Which begs the question - why is the EU getting involved in a country with such low support for membership? The logical answer would seem to be that there is no intention on the EU of allowing the Ukraine membership but merely keeping them in a state of permanent "association" as they've done with Turkey for years. This allows opening up of the Ukraine for expoiltation without the need for actually allowing them (that's the Ukrainian people) the full benefits of membership (living wage, working conditions, development grants/subsidies etc.)

    It does rather look as though the Ukrainians have been mugged by their billionaire leaders yet again.

    jonsid, 13 July 2014 9:27pm

    Kiev is dispersing refugees from the violence to various other towns and cities around the Ukraine. Some of these regions are already complaining about the influx which suggests ethnic divisions are greater than Kiev would like us to believe with their "united Ukraine" narrative. I wasn't aware that all displaced people are being forced to have their fingerprints taken by the police. What purpose can this serve?

    Refugees from Donbas refuse to work – deputy head of the Dnipropetrovsk Oblast State Administration

    http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/06/29/refugees-from-donbas-refuse-to-work-deputy-head-of-the-dnipropetrovsk-oblast-state-administration/

    jonsid, 13 July 2014 10:33pm

    An interesting programme for Ukraine's gas transit lines. Modernisation costs of over $3billion - proposed improvement costs of $5.5billion.

    http://www.encharter.org/fileadmin/user_upload/document/Ukraine_GTS.pdf

    These costings were proposed by the Brussels based Energy Charter Trust.

    There's big money at stake here.

    Theodore Svedberg, 14 July 2014 1:07am

    It is in Russia's interest to preserve a unified Ukraine that is neutral between east and west. If sufficiently provoked they will intervene overtly but the outcome would be bad for Russia. It be worse for Ukraine.

    The best outcome is that SE Ukraine and all of the oblasts east and north of the Dneipr River would secede from but that would leave central and western Ukraine firmly in the NATO orbit. That would be a set back for Russia as well leaving the rump Ukraine as a failed state that would be little more than granary for Europe and provide a work force that could pick potatoes in Poland and clean toilets in Bulgaria.

    The worst outcome would involve war between Russia and NATO on a Ukrainian battlefield.

    DaveHodge, 14 July 2014 1:13am

    I would think that anyone with half a scrupple can see the Ukraine government is under instructions from the US to provoke Moscow.


    [Jul 13, 2014] Yatsenyuk wrote resignation letter which Turchinov did not sign yet

    The key problem for Yatsenyuk is that Ukraine started to deviate from junta proposed universal explanation of economic difficulties: "If there is no running water, it's due to evil Muscovites ", and personally Vladimir Putin. The Ukrainian government squeezed salary for state and municipal workers -- Putin is to blame, they stopped paying /reduced social security payment - again, Putin is guilty, shuttles stop to run - again Putin. But Putin-is-guilty scare does not work forever. After some point people start to look at Yatsenyuk and Turchinov. And to feel this look might be very uncomfortable for a Washington rabbit. So "Washington rabbit" probably start to feel that it's time to move to Miami or San Francisco where his sister is living.
    iarex.ru

    Serg Lipotkin

    As I said that Senya behaves inadequately, for a very simple reason. He does nto intent to solve the mess that he created. Now Senya "Bullet in the forehead" Yatsenyuk want to resigns, in order not to get a kick into the sheen later! Or God forbid, a real bullet. And it is easy to be a seer in his case! Well, not so powerful as this old woman Wanga from Bulgaria had been, but still... He simply started feeling with his nose the smell of fried flesh. And that the autumn might well bring "fruits" of EuroMaidan with this particular smell in full force.

    thebrain

    Is it possible? The resignation of Yatsenyuk might be the sible best event in Ukraine over the last six months. But he might trying to fool people, and this is just a gesture; he will stay.

    But on other hand he might decided that to wait until the autumn does not make any sense and that economy collapse is inevitable. Apparently he lost any hope that the situation improves. While Yatsenyuk is definitely is a scum, but he is far from being stupid.

    [Jul 12, 2014] Civil victims of the was in South East

    karl1haushofer, July 12, 2014 at 3:43 pm

    Disgusting and VERY GRAPHIC images from today's shelling by junta army in Donetsk.

    ...Anyway, the junta shelled a suburb of Donetsk with GRADs. So far there has been at least 30 civilian victims and many more injured. The death toll might be anywhere between 30 and 300.

    I guess this was Poroshenko's response for the successful rebel attack on junta army. The UN will not condemn this. The Finnish media will probably not even mention it. This is disgusting and disheartening.

    Right now I'm sick of the media of my country. While they are accusing Igor Strelkov of being "a Stalin" and a "human rights violator" they are either completely ignoring or downplaying war crimes committed by the junta.

    They have made me hate words such as "democracy", "human rights" etc. Not bec

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lVavDFnn-o#t=155&fmt=18

    I think the above is the video you tried to link.

    After watching such videos and seeing how Stasi was "sent on vacation" at militaryphotos for showing glee at the death of these regime butchers I think the west is hopeless. It is so high on its self-ascribed moral "superiority" that any crime no matter how egregious can be fobbed off as "collateral damage by the good guys" or just ignored. People in oppressed societies actually care more than the over-fed self-righteous chauvinist lemmings that populate the west.

    But the chickens are coming home to roost. I wish them godspeed.

    karl1haushofer, July 12, 2014 at 5:07 pm

    I agree on everything but you describe only half of the problem.

    One half of the problem is what you said. The downright evilness and hypocrisy of the West.

    The other half of the problem is the weakness and disunity of the rest of the world. There is not a united front to confront the West. Russia has also been guilty of betrayals (refusal to honor an arms deal with Iran, refusal to veto against attack to Libya). This must stop.

    Hopefully Russia will wake up soon and start bombing the shit out of junta forces. Otherwise we will see more of massacres like this. I mean there has to be some red line for Russia too?

    [Jul 12, 2014] Putin's Ukraine U-turn: why it makes sense for Russia to allow Kiev victory by Balázs Jarábik

    Voice of Carnegie Endowment for Permanent war ;-). Quote: "The source seems like something funded by neocons, Soros and etc. I guess this is their idea of what we are supposed to think regarding the events."
    Jul 09, 2014 | theguardian.com | Jump to comments (784)

    Thus, both Poroshenko and Putin have to walk a very fine line because of their respective domestic political situations. Perhaps Moscow will realise that Poroshenko could gain much-needed political capital if he can deliver a military victory that would empower him to make the deals that Russia needs and wants from him. The ball is in Putin's court.

    Balázs Jarábik is a visiting scholar at Carnegie Endowment for International Peace focussing on Ukraine and eastern Europe

    Selected Comments

    MonsieurPetanque, 09 July 2014 11:22am

    It is also noteworthy that the word "junta" has disappeared from Russian state media's descriptions of the government of Ukraine.

    And in turn from the lexicon of many posters here.

    Z'ing Sui -> MonsieurPetanque, 09 July 2014 11:46am

    I see that change of tone is noted by a lot of people and media, but isn't the explanation pretty straightforward - I think the word "junta" starting disappearing from pro-Russian vocabulary roughly coincides with Poroshenko assuming power.

    Being an elected leader, winning by a big margin in nationwide elections makes him legitimate by almost any book. No need to imply or search for some mastermind giving out actual vocabularies to propaganda media and comments section bots, the word is simply not appropriate, however you stretch it.

    Scipio1 -> MonsieurPetanque, 09 July 2014 1:05pm

    ''It is also noteworthy that the word "junta" has disappeared from Russian state media's descriptions of the government of Ukraine.

    And in turn from the lexicon of many posters here.''

    You can put lipstick on a pig but it is still a pig. Interesting report from the BBC man in Slavyansk yesterday. It ended with the journalists observing that in addition to the Ukrainian flag being hoisted, there was also the black and red flag of Pravy Sektor on view. Of course I will be diplomatic and call them by their name of convenience, to wit the National Guard. I wonder what these gentlemen are up to? social work perhaps? Or winning hearts and minds? Funny, what comes to my mind is 'disappearing' now that the atrocity de jour - incinerating your opponents a la Odessa is temporarily off the agenda.

    Two points to make about Poroshenko:

    1. He is not making the decisions, the US State Department and CIA are.
    2. His invasion of the East is a nasty, kid-killing exercise, example of the type of ideological total war which is not uncommon in this part of the world.

    In literal terms he may not be a Nazi but he certainly has them at his back domestically baying for blood which he needs to satisfy (having first cleared it with his Washington masters of course.

    In terms of ending the war, how do you seal a frontier - Russian/ Ukraine 1500 miles long. It is foolish to imagine that the Don Bass people are not going to fight on. There will be no agreement without their consent and Putin and Porshenko had better realise this. Big power decisions taken over the heads of people seldom leads to peace.

    A good analogy has been the British struggle against the nationalists in Ireland. Whatever they Republic did to aid the process of the British campaign - closing the border, outlawing the IRA, imprisoning nationalist in the south - the IRA continued their campaign for decades. Eventually the British authorities had to negotiate an uneasy peace conceding many points.

    Ruling by force alone never works and the legitimate concerns of the local people need to be addressed. However, Poroshenko and his Washington masters "legally" banned from standing.

    I think I'll keep referring to the Junta in Kiev.

    Bakaro -> underlander, 09 July 2014 7:54pm

    His invasion of the East

    Are you sure an army can invade a region inside its own country?

    The Ukrainian army is acting like invaders, bombing the cities and destroying water and energy supplies. They were even promised the land and housing of the "separatists" as a reward after their "victory". How this is not invasion?

    Bakaro -> underlander, 10 July 2014 10:09am

    A war is a war, but why use mortar and artillery fire against a village which never had any 'separatists' in it? Why hit schools, hospitals, apartment buildings and etc? Why target water and energy supplies? Looks like they are trying to drive people from their land. My point was that Ukrainian army is acting like the invaders. Are you saying this it is not the case just because there were no massive air strikes (yet)? And what Russian TV has to do with it?

    But surely all those bullshit about Ukrainian army using cluster bombs, phosphorous bombs, mass shooting of civilians and kind in particular etc just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

    How is this a bullshit, may I ask?

    There is clear evidence of cluster of unguided rockets fired at the Lugansk administrative building on June 2d:
    / http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/03/world/europe/ukraine-luhansk-building-attack/

    There were several videos taken by residents and 'separatists' in Semenovka showing what looks a lot like phosphorous bombs.

    There are rumors of adult men being killed by National Guard in the 'liberated' towns. Of course, they didn't invite the journalists to observe, but how do you know that it "does not stand to to scrutiny"? After events in Odessa on May 2d, it is not unimaginable, especially since the very same people are now being recruited into National Guard.

    One of the 'liberators' from battalion Donbass says that they were firing at everything that moves, including dogs and people, while 'liberating' the village of Nikolaevka. He also says that, as they discovered later, there were no 'separatists' there.

    http://timer.od.ua/news/ukrainskiy_voenniy_luchshe_bi_nikolaevku_ne_osvobojdali_351.html

    PyotrGrozny , 09 July 2014 11:34am
    Having just watched two days of Russian TV news it is full of images of destruction in Eastern Ukraine and refugees fleeing to Russia while Jen Psaki is shown denying that their is a refugee problem. I find it a bit difficult to reconcile with this analysis.

    Z'ing Sui , 09 July 2014 11:36am
    This article seems a few days too late. With government forces pressing the offensive and giving up on the ceasefire, what do the five supposed reasons for Russia's U-turn matter?

    More, the article seems self-contradictory, both paragraphs -

    link to the same source:

    http://gorshenin.eu/researches/41_from_the_revolution_to_a_new_country.html

    and while the source shows that most Ukrainians supported negotiations over military action, it fails to back the implication that prolonging a cease-fire would have meant loosing people's trust.

    I understand that the article originates not from the Guardian, but from some smaller outlet, but it gives the impression of a quite poorly written/edited piece. Lots of links, no substance. The core of the article - the five reasons seem like pure speculation, and a lot of important assumptions are not backed by analysis or sources.

    HansVonDerHeyde -> Z'ing Sui, 09 July 2014 7:59pm
    So , instead of reporting about Ukrainian Jets bombing civilians 5 days ago , TheGuardian reports about Putin...

    Instead of reporting about Ukrainian Forces now shelling Luhansk killing more civilians, they prefer to talk about the " Evil Aggressor Communist "....

    Why? Please someone answer me....

    Bakaro -> HansVonDerHeyde , 09 July 2014 8:37pm
    The current agenda for the media:

    The rest follows.

    Bakaro -> Z'ing Sui , 09 July 2014 8:42pm
    Balázs Jarábik is a visiting scholar at Carnegie Endowment for International Peace focussing on Ukraine and eastern Europe.

    The source seems like something funded by neocons, Soros and etc. I guess this is their idea of what we are supposed to think regarding the events.

    Jeremn, 09 July 2014 12:05pm

    Any article that links to an article in the Economist by way of supporting reference is suspect. That's a heavily anti-Russian publication.

    And on such a sensitive issue as the Odessa fire too. Even a tragedy is twisted into calling for support for a Ukrainian government intent on forcing people to obey it.

    iseethroughyou, 09 July 2014 12:07pm
    Putin never made a u-turn. He has been calling from the beginning for a political settlement that involves federalism.

    Those who have made a u-turn are the Russophobes wjho have completely misread Putin's intentionsrom the beginning. The never saw the Russian takeover of Crimea coming and they thought he was goping to invade Eastern Ukraine and he didn't.

    Now they're scrambling to save what is left of their tattered reputations by claiming Putin did a u-turn to explain away their total cluelessness.

    Robert Sandlin, 09 July 2014 12:13pm
    While I understood the use of the term "junta", I have never been fond of it. I've always preferred "coup-gang, neo-nazi government, Kiev regime, illegal government", etc". And since, even with the Presidential election (illegal in itself) the core of the regime is still intact. I see no reason to change my terms, for a regime that is the same as before the "election". And as I'm not a Russian government employee (though pro-Russian). I can call them, as I see them to be.

    iseethroughyou -> Robert Sandlin, 09 July 2014 12:23pm
    Junta or not a junta is neither here nor there as with Poroshenko's election the Neo-Nazis are still in the same positions of power as before. Right Sektor and allied ultranationalisrs still have not been disarmed

    Poroshenko's "election" is a fig leaf to hide the ugliness of the current regime, to give it a veneer of respectability.

    AntonKamaev , 09 July 2014 12:21pm
    From day 1 Russia has said that it is not interested in sending forces to Ukraine.

    But since western MSM ran scaremongering propaganda about imminent Russian invasion they now have to explain why it did not happen by pretending that Putin changed his mind due to ineffective sanctions or some other crap.

    Of course Russia does not want wars on its border and in the region, that is why Russia campaigned against a war in Syria.

    Hellarious -> AntonKamaev, 09 July 2014 1:13pm
    From day 1 Russia has said that

    We shall not be interested, what Russian government say, we shall judge them by their actions, which are usually quite different.

    Jeremn -> Hellarious, 10 July 2014 10:04am

    Please judge the Ukrainian government by its actions too. Even the foreign ministers of France and Germany agree that they are provoking conflict now:

    "The ministers discussed settlement of the Ukrainian crisis, according to the Russian Foreign Ministry. "The French minister emphasized the ongoing aggravation of the situation in the southeastern regions of the country, while acknowledging that in practice the authorities in Kiev have departed from the agreements reached by the foreign ministers of Ukraine, Russia, France and Germany in Berlin on July 2, 2014″

    With the Italian FM also adding

    "Another important aspect is that all members of the contact group assume the task set for them, an unconditional, bilateral and stable ceasefire. And so they perceive their partners in the contact groups as participants in the process, not as people, from whom they demand capitulation,"

    Robert Sandlin , 09 July 2014 12:22pm
    One of the best articles on what western reporters actually see in East Ukraine.Even if we seldom see their reports:

    http://www.countercurrents.org/graziadei060714.htm

    SHappens, 09 July 2014 12:45pm
    A few moves indicate a slightly change of strategy from the Kremlin.

    Whilst Lavrov made it clear that any attempt to retake Crimea will lead to a war, Putin is excluding any military intrusion in East Ukraine, also backed up by Russians.

    On the other hand gas talk are on the table again with Ukraine owing Gazprom a 5,5b€, and South Stream being hugely supported by Italy amongst the other countries concerned.

    Parallely Kiev intends to ban the communist party which have a 23 seats at the Parliament, another step towards democracy made in Ukraine. Will they however also ban the far rights parties which would be a wise move to calm the separatists.

    Decentralisaton is still in the menu, but no granted of Russian language which remains a mistake. At the same time Ukraine is rewriting the story books for school depicting Russia as an ennemy to Ukraine, another big mistake, a rewriting of the story for the future generations. In any case decentralisation will not be enough and it is not excluded that Kiev might reconsider Federalism for East Ukraine if EU pushes for a trilateral market deal which does not seem totally off the table as it stands today.

    It is always painful to see the lack of coverage in the media regarding East Ukraine, no words on civilians killed, nor refugee, or so little when dead Kiev soldiers get maximum coverage. True that if the truth was to come to light at the same pace we are informed on Gaza, the public opinion could be indignated which could then justify a Russian intervention to give East Ukraine a referendum to join with Russia, still the West omertà has reached levels not seen since the Cold War.

    Putin has been the one playing the peace card since the beginning and it seems that this option will now prevail. We expect the EU to understands this and slowly detach from the US War hunger. By the way there are currently 9 NATO ship in the black sea...

    moongibbon -> SHappens, 09 July 2014 1:15pm
    Banning political parties is a step towards democracy? Do you work for the State Dept perhaps?

    SHappens -> moongibbon , 09 July 2014 1:20pm
    I was being ironic here

    Robert Sandlin , 09 July 2014 12:46pm
    I don't see where the author see's that Poroshenko and Ukraine is trying to deal with Russia.The new MoD just said he promises a mythical "Ukrainian victory parade in Sevastopol".Which if any other country's military chief said that about another country there'd be an instant war,or at least a major world crisis over that statement.Then,Poroshenko was defied by his warlords and neo-nazi private armies over the ceasefire..And promptly got scared and canceled it.That,and the fact that masked fascist influenced mobs roam Kiev.Attacking anyone,and anything,that they don't like.Shows that the "official" regime doesn't control the men with gun power in Banderastan.What kind of a deal could Russia hope to make without a pardner to the deal able to make sure it was followed up on.

    If_Not_Why_Not , 09 July 2014 12:56pm
    This article glosses over the real truth that Marx wrote of. i.e. 'Economic Determinism'.

    Russia never really wanted the economic 'basket case' of the Ukraine. Prior to the recent troubles Russia was massively subsidising the Ukraine in gas prices and had even offer a cheap loan of $15 bill. with more to come. It was more than happy with just annexing the Crimea, which meant it no longer had to give a gas price discount or pay rent.(or lend money unlikely to be re paid any time soon)

    Now the Ukraine or its proxy the West can and will pay top $ for its gas & deal with the millions of unemployed and rubbish industry in the east of the Ukraine.

    The sanctions are & were a joke for Russia.

    This Russian show has always been run by the very intelligent PM Dmitry Medvedev, ex Chairman of Gasprom. (not so much macho man Putin.....there is a reason the USA embassy called them Batman and Robin, apart from the fact that they ran the biggest state kleptocracy! per wikileaks)

    Do any of you readers recall just before annexation he (Robin) announced the resumption of the building of the bridge connecting Russia with Crimea?

    Water, power and supplies could come that way if negotiations with Ukraine are difficult. It was all a pre planned chess move.

    Crimea was and will remain Russian despite what even the new president says!
    Russia wants and needs the gas income from the West and Ukraine, if the West pays for it .. all the better.

    BTW, Putin would much rather be part of the European 'western' club rather than be forced to a union with commie China.

    We in the West should encourage Russia to be a part of the West (and its Human rights and press freedoms and democracy).

    Russia was part of Europe (as opposed to Asia, China, Mongolia) for millennium.
    The cold war is over (thank God) let's keep it that way.

    This crisis was a result of the EU and USA's mishandling of the whole affair.

    atavistic, 09 July 2014 1:23pm
    This is a strange analysis indeed. To prove the U-turn, the author is applying the history of events to suit his conclusion. Not very clever, methinks!

    The 'mandate' was always a tool to apply / reduce pressure for negotiations. This was clear from the start. If you think that the legislature would hesitate in once again providing the mandate within a second's notice should putin want it, you are insane. It was a card played. That's all.

    As for the Crimea vs East analysis, Putin was clear from the off set that Eastern Ukraine was less supportive of Russia and therefore required a different solution. While the west was insisting on a daily basis that Russia was about to invade, Putin was in fact analysing the facts as they were, not as they were reported! It is interesting that his analysis is now, several months later, being used against him!

    And the continual repetition of bad economic performance as though its economy were doing so much worse than others' is pathetic. Russia is not dependent upon the west as much as the west would like it to be! And let's look at the EU's position ... not exactly 'staunch' given that Austria signed the South Stream deal a couple of weeks ago!

    The only comment in the article that deserves some attention is that of the Separatists not being able to find a credible leader.

    Rozina , 09 July 2014 1:29pm
    A U-turn on Putin's part? Russia has consistently emphasized diplomacy and negotiation in its attempts to resolve the ongoing crisis and instability in Ukraine since former President Yanukovych refused to sign the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement back in November last year. It is the Poroshenko regime that keeps wavering and putting up ceasefires conditional on the pro-Russian separatists' surrender (but not on Ukrainian forces' downing of arms) and rescinding them whenever the separatists perceive they must make all the concessions.

    The Russian government cannot be blamed for refraining from supplying the rebels with arms. The Kremlin knows full well that doing so would play into persistent US attempts to demonise Russia as an aggressor. It's a case of damned if they and damned if they don't. So far Russian restraint and recourse to international law have frustrated the US government which has been itching for excuses to include Ukraine and Georgia in NATO and to stock Ukraine and the Baltic States with NATO missiles along their borders with Russia.

    Much of the rest of Balázs Jarábik's article is divorced from the real world. Perhaps he should be reminded that the fire in the Odessa Trade Union Building was deliberately lit by Pravy Sektor thugs inside to disguise the mass murder of pro-federalism rally activists forced inside by rioting "football fans" who were actually oligarch politician Ihor Kolomoisky's Dnepr-1 Battalion hirelings and other fascists. Perhaps Balázs Jarábik should also be reminded that Hungarians in Zakarpattia Oblast in far western Ukraine have also been unhappy at the Kyiv regime's turn to extreme right nationalism.

    And as for The Guardian's sub-heading gloating in Kyiv's supposed victory over the rebels in Slavyansk, I would hardly regard the escape of Igor Strelkov and his men (a decision made freely by Strelkov) to Donetsk city through a Ukrainian military encirclement of a town as a defeat. The separatists took this move when they realised the Ukrainian army's aim was to completely destroy the town. Their escape must be considered a tactical retreat.

    The fact remains that for over two months a group of rebels held off the might of the Ukrainian army and air force in Slavyansk: that the rebels then decided to leave and managed to do this successfully with odds stacked against them is no small feat either. It remains to be seen whether the Ukrainian army can hold the town or completely demolish it after sending away remaining residents (who most likely will never be seen again); or if President Poroshenko graciously deigns to rebuild it using IMF loan funding from his bank accounts.

    oddballs, 09 July 2014 1:36pm
    Before the Ultra's took over the Maiden demonstration this article seems to forget that President-Poroshenko, and Prime Minister Yats were members of the corrupt governments of the past, in fact all Maiden achieved is a continuation of the same, a cabal of thieves and oligarchs.

    The best hope for the Ukrainian government in implementing the austerity measures 'needed' to pay back the IMF loans and gas debts to Gazprom would actually be a Russian invasion.

    Nearly half of the projected loans will never actually arrive in the Ukraine, $8 billion will go directly to western financial institutions, holders of government securities, $3 billion to pay back Gazprom.

    The austerity measures will entail 50% cutbacks in pensions and social services
    Ukraine will find it difficult to export to Russia and the question is, is, there a market in the EU/USA for Ukrainian products ?

    Will the free trade agreement be a one way movement of goods?

    It looks very much that a large proportion of. People in the Ukraine will be out of a job.

    Ukraine is bankrupt, so called economic reforms will be pushed through enabling western corporations/financial institutes to buy up resources on the cheap.
    Russia is probably happy that the basket-case Ukraine will bleed the USA/EU coffers, the last thing they want is to invade the Ukraine, the west will pay the bills and face the backlash in the winter of discontent.

    The Ukrainian people will turn on this government when they find that they have jumped out of the frying pan into the fire,

    moncur , 09 July 2014 1:43pm
    The US State Department has defended Kiev's right to use airstrikes in eastern Ukraine explaining that it is defending the country. "The government of Ukraine is defending the country of Ukraine and I think they have every right to do that as does the international community," State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said in response to RT's Gayane Chichakyan's question about Ukrainian air force strikes in eastern Ukraine. "The people of Ukraine have the right to live in peace and security without Russian-backed separatists attacking their homes and going into buildings and I think that is where the root cause of this is and we shouldn't forget that fact," Psaki added. The rebels in Donetsk and Luhansk should surrender to avoid further unnecessary casualties and seek asylum in Russia.

    errovi -> moncur, 09 July 2014 1:49pm

    Jen Psaki conveniently ignores the shelling by Ukrainian artillery.

    Alice Ponomareva , 09 July 2014 2:13pm
    Overall, I think that relatives (Ukrs) are brought up the same as Russians - hope that a tsar will come and sort out everything, and on yourself nothing depends :o), and what is convenient in it - one doesn't have to do any thing! :o)

    The tsar will take care, them up there know better :o), and all.

    East of Ukraine didn't sign for any bombings and civil war, that they are being actually really blown up and have to dig up prehistoric guns and rifles and go to war.

    They signed in the referendum for the Crimean solution - that they vote and then small green men come and do the fighting on their behalf, if needed.
    And then they get Russian passports and finance, standard of life increases, and all one has to do is go toss a vote once.

    Pity Westerners don't comprehend Russian language, because the hundreds of video-s in youtube where Easterners mourn or moan or both about their losses are all very passive - they are like sheep, not in revenge mode to any one - but more in style of lamenting nature's cruel forces, that suddenly all the troubles befell on them from the sky. Well, literally, from the sky.

    There was a big woman saying "Poroshenko! We all heard you got a new granddaughter! We were happy for you! As a new life, a new family member.
    And look what you have done with my little granddaughter! (shows the bombing place) How can you, are you a President of the country after that, are you insane, what has taken on you, I think you are beyond normal mind."

    On one side, she criticises. to put it mildly. her President. On the other hand - she clearly recognises it IS her President. And says nil about revenge or any thing. Just, laments her losses.

    They are quite peaceful, Easterners, and awaiting that someone else - anybody - Russia or Poroshenko or any tsar - will sort it out - that it is peace again. They don't care who, in their majority.

    Most say "better Russia" - asked "Why, if there's no difference" - reply that "Russia is better to keep order, you can't compare with the mess of Ukraine".

    They just want "peace" and "order".

    idance , 09 July 2014 2:17pm
    While The NY Times is happy to inform that the Ukrainian armed forces "have overcome that psychological barrier in which the military were afraid to shoot living people", for Russians the citizens of Russia and Ukraine are still one nation.

    From the very beginning of the conflict Putin keeps telling how important is to save their lives. And Russia acts accordingly trying to use any slightest opportunity to prevent and stop the slaughter. Those who cannot admit it have to make up u-turns, s-turns and w-turns and reasons for them.

    WorldToSmall , 09 July 2014 2:49pm
    The author should not even bother to publish this analysis as it is very poor. There was not much of the u-turn in Russian policy. From the day one the message was : Russia does not plan invasion of Eastern Ukraine. The President did not even needed this mandate from "Duma" that he later revoked for publicity reasons only.
    What happened in Odessa did not "further mobilised Ukrainians against ...Russian efforts to destabilise ...". The sheer unthinkable brutality of "Right-Sector" simply extinguished what little appetite for protest there was in Odessa. The population was bluntly beaten down into submission.
    I also did not notice " the word "junta" has disappeared from Russian state media's descriptions of the government of Ukraine" Not at all.

    Peace_Brothers , 09 July 2014 3:01pm ,
    Nadiya Savchenko, female officer of Ukrainian army's Aydar unit who was captured in Luhansk Oblast on June 17, was transferred to prison in Voronezh, a Russian city not far from the border with Ukraine, reported television news program TSN.

    Savchenko is being suspected in the murder of Russian journalists while participating in Ukraine's antiterrorist operation. Trial is reportedly scheduled for July 9.

    "Openly kidnapping Ukrainian citizens on the territory of our state, Russian authorities not only violate all possible norms of international law, but also basic norms of ethics and morality. Such actions will not be left without an adequate respond from Ukraine and international community," wrote the Ukraine Foreign Ministry.

    What's farcical is that this statement comes just 1 day after Russia revealed that the son of a Russian lawmaker was kidnapped in the Maldives by US Agents, and transferred to Guam for trial, supposedly on hacking charges.

    The US maintains its right to kidnap suspects anywhere in the world. In spite of this, we'll no doubt see the charade of the US aligning itself behind Ukraine on this, and joining in punishing Russia for trying a suspected war criminal.

    BangTheDrums -> Peace_Brothers, 09 July 2014 3:30pm

    Aydar was formed from Right Sector activists.

    So this is one less Nazi on the streets of Ukraine.

    [Jul 11, 2014] The Right Way to Partition Iraq (If Necessary) by Fred Dews

    Those guys from Brookings Institution are really funny. Just replace Iraq with Ukraine, Sunnies with South East Orthodox confederates. Shiite with Western Ukrainian Uniates and Baghdad with Kiev. It would really funny to read. Even title "The Right Way to Partition Ukraine (If Necessary)" would strongly smell with political incorrectness.
    July 9, 2014 | Brookings Institution
    Iraq faces an existential crisis: the Sunni-dominated group Islamic State of Iraq and Syria has declared itself "the Islamic State"; Kurds in the north are solidifying their autonomy; and the largely-Shiite controlled government in Baghdad braces against further gains by its foes.

    In 2007, Brookings Senior Fellow Michael O'Hanlon and SAIS (Johns Hopkins) Senior Fellow Edward Joseph wrote a paper, "The Case for Soft Partition in Iraq," in which they laid out the rationale for an Iraq-led approach to a viable soft-partition of Iraq in the wake of then-escalating intercommunal violence.

    In a new opinion piece, O'Hanlon and Joseph revisit their proposal in light of the current situation, writing that "Though it would be difficult to accomplish, federalism could still be a helpful element as Iraqis struggle through their current tragic mess."

    The appeal of federalism could grow if Iraqi leaders in Baghdad cannot agree soon on a government of national unity, ideally one without Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, who has proven so divisive. Whether a "soft partition"-meaning the creation of a Sunni autonomous zone to complement the existing Kurdish one-or "hard partition"-meaning the formal redrawing of regional lines-it would seem a natural idea. Not only because of the recent violence, which has caused hundreds of thousands of Iraqis to flee their homes, but also the arbitrariness with which state borders were drawn by the European powers after World War One.

    While Iraq's constitution allows for the possibility of a Sunni autonomous region that "may even persuade moderate Sunni leaders at the national, provincial and tribal levels to support a new government of national unity," O'Hanlon and Joseph say that "partition cannot be seen as an alternative to cooperation by Iraqi political leaders across sectarian lines. In fact, to be stabilizing and consistent with U.S. national security goals, restructuring Iraq via one of these means must be done collaboratively, not by fiat by one group or because of developments on the battlefield."

    Read their piece here to get full details of their proposal.


    During a recent Brookings event on the Iraq crisis, O'Hanlon spoke to this question, explaining that "Partition can mean a couple of different things."

    What it can mean is a de facto relocation of some populations, and maybe some more autonomy within Iraq for the Sunni population in the north and west, akin to the Kurdistan concept. It could mean a redrawing of formal state boundaries. It could mean that the individual autonomous zones each have their own military force as the Kurds essentially do. Or it could mean that they're really governing themselves in terms of economics and policing, day to day operations of government, but they still all contribute to a national security force.

    And then there are additional questions, such as who is going to protect populations that are relocating? And, will people be compensated for the loss of their property, the loss of their homes? "There are all sorts of very hard, practical questions to make partition work," O'Hanlon said.

    Citing a conversation related to the partition of Yugoslavia that he had with former Greek Prime Minister Papandreou, O'Hanlon explained that partition can't come in the heat of conflict:

    If people want to cooperate in making this happen, or they get to a point where there are new political forces and new political priorities that people are focused on, then maybe it's not quite as destabilizing. If you just do it right now in the heat of conflict it actually creates as many problems as it solves, or at least it could.

    Nonresident Senior Fellow John McLaughlin, a former deputy director for intelligence at the Central Intelligence Agency, also wrote about this issue. In "Are We About to See Three New Nations Replace Iraq?," McLaughlin writes that "Iraq as we know it is in danger. Which means it's time to start thinking about what the nation will look like if it does disintegrate, and consider what policy challenges would then confront the world."
    Though Iraq's three major ethnic groups-Sunnis, Shia and Kurds-live in generally distinct geographic regions, there will be nothing neat or clean about a breakup. A split won't calm political waters nor will it bring near-term stability. And for US policy? The already labyrinthine geopolitical puzzle will become even more maddeningly complex.

    Let's break it down into what would happen in each of Iraq's three ethnic enclaves.

    Read here for his complete analysis.

    [Jul 11, 2014] Washington Pushing Ukraine to the Brink By Mike Whitney

    "In Ukraine, the US is using a divide-and-conquer strategy to pit the EU against trading partner Moscow."

    Jul 10, 2014 | OpEdNews

    Why US troops, of course, which is why US military bases are conveniently located up and down the pipeline route. Coincidence?

    Not on your life. Operation "Enduring Freedom" is a bigger hoax than the threadbare war on terror.

    So let's not kid ourselves. The war had nothing to do with liberating women or bringing democracy to the unwashed masses. It was all about power politics and geostrategic maneuvering; stealing resources, trouncing potential rivals, and beefing up profits for the voracious oil giants. Who doesn't know that already?

    ... ... ...

    In Ukraine, the US is using a divide-and-conquer strategy to pit the EU against trading partner Moscow. The State Department and CIA helped to topple Ukraine's elected President Viktor Yanukovych and install a US stooge in Kiev who was ordered to cut off the flow of Russian gas to the EU and lure Putin into a protracted guerilla war in Ukraine. The bigwigs in Washington figured that, with some provocation, Putin would react the same way he did when Georgia invaded South Ossetia in 2006. But, so far, Putin has resisted the temptation to get involved which is why new puppet president Petro Poroshenko has gone all "Jackie Chan" and stepped up the provocations by pummeling east Ukraine mercilessly. It's just a way of goading Putin into sending in the tanks.

    But here's the odd part: Washington doesn't have a back-up plan. It's obvious by the way Poroshenko keeps doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. That demonstrates that there's no Plan B. Either Poroshenko lures Putin across the border and into the conflict, or the neocon plan falls apart, which it will if they can't demonize Putin as a "dangerous aggressor" who can't be trusted as a business partner.

    So all Putin has to do is sit-tight and he wins, mainly because the EU needs Moscow's gas. If energy supplies are terminated or drastically reduced, prices will rise, the EU will slide back into recession, and Washington will take the blame. So Washington has a very small window to draw Putin into the fray, which is why we should expect another false flag incident on a much larger scale than the fire in Odessa. Washington is going to have to do something really big and make it look like it was Moscow's doing. Otherwise, their pivot plan is going to hit a brick wall. Here's a tidbit readers might have missed in the Sofia News Agency's novinite site:

    "Ukraine's Parliament adopted ... a bill under which up to 49% of the country's gas pipeline network could be sold to foreign investors. This could pave the way for US or EU companies, which have eyed Ukrainian gas transportation system over the last months.

    "Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk was earlier quoted as saying that the bill would allow Kiev to 'attract European and American partners to the exploitation and modernization of Ukraine's gas transportation,' in a situation on Ukraine's energy market he described as 'super-critical." Critics of the bill have repeatedly pointed the West has long been interest in Ukraine's pipelines, with some seeing in the Ukrainian revolution a means to get access to the system. (Ukraine allowed to sell up to 49% of gas pipeline system, novinite.com)

    Boy you got to hand it to the Obama throng. They really know how to pick their coup-leaders, don't they? These puppets have only been in office for a couple months and they're already giving away the farm.

    And, such a deal! US corporations will be able to buy up nearly half of a pipeline that moves 60 percent of the gas that flows from Russia to Europe. That's what you call a tollbooth, my friend; and US companies will be in just the right spot to gouge Moscow for every drop of natural gas that transits those pipelines. And gouge they will too, you can bet on it.

    Is that why the State Department cooked up this loony putsch, so their fatcat, freeloading friends could rake in more dough?

    This also explains why the Obama crowd is trying to torpedo Russia's other big pipeline project called Southstream. Southstream is a good deal for Europe and Russia. On the one hand, it would greatly enhance the EU's energy security, and on the other, it will provide needed revenues for Russia so they can continue to modernize, upgrade their dilapidated infrastructure, and improve standards of living. But "the proposed pipeline (which) would snake about 2,400 kilometers, or roughly 1,500 miles, from southern Russia via the Black Sea to Bulgaria, Serbia, Hungary and ultimately Austria. (and) could handle about 60 billion cubic meters of natural gas a year, enough to allow Russian exports to Europe to largely bypass Ukraine" (New York Times) The proposed pipeline further undermines Washington's pivot strategy, so Obama, the State Department and powerful US senators (Ron Johnson, John McCain, and Chris Murphy) are doing everything in their power to torpedo the project.

    "What gives Vladimir Putin his power and control is his oil and gas reserves and West and Eastern Europe's dependence on them," Senator Johnson said in an interview. "We need to break up his stranglehold on energy supplies. We need to bust up that monopoly." (New York Times)

    What a bunch of baloney. Putin doesn't have a monopoly on gas. Russia only provides 30 percent of the gas the EU uses every year. And Putin isn't blackmailing anyone either. Countries in the EU can either buy Russian gas or not buy it. It's up to them. No one has a gun to their heads. And Gazprom's prices are competitive too, sometimes well-below market rates which has been the case for Ukraine for years, until crackpot politicians started sticking their thumb in Putin's eye at every opportunity; until they decided that that they didn't have to pay their bills anymore because, well, because Washington told them not to pay their bills. That's why.

    Ukraine is in the mess it's in today for one reason, because they decided to follow Washington's advice and shoot themselves in both feet. Their leaders thought that was a good idea. So now the country is broken, penniless and riven by social unrest. Regrettably, there's no cure for stupidity.

    The neocon geniuses apparently believe that if they sabotage Southstream and nail down 49 percent ownership of Ukraine's pipeline infrastructure, then the vast majority of Russian gas will have to flow through Ukrainian pipelines. They think that this will give them greater control over Moscow. But there's a glitch to this plan which analyst Jeffrey Mankoff pointed out in an article titled "Can Ukraine Use Its Gas Pipelines to Threaten Russia?". Here's what he said:

    "The biggest problem with this approach is a cut in gas supplies creates real risks for the European economy... In fact, Kyiv's efforts to siphon off Russian gas destined to Europe to offset the impact of a Russian cutoff in January 2009 provide a window onto why manipulating gas supplies is a risky strategy for Ukraine. Moscow responded to the siphoning by halting all gas sales through Ukraine for a couple of weeks, leaving much of eastern and southern Europe literally out in the cold. European leaders reacted angrily, blaming both Moscow and Kyiv for the disruption and demanding that they sort out their problems. While the EU response would likely be somewhat more sympathetic to Ukraine today, Kyiv's very vulnerability and need for outside financial support makes incurring European anger by manipulating gas supplies very risky." (Can Ukraine Use Its Gas Pipelines to Threaten Russia, two paragraphs)

    The funny thing about gas is that, when you stop paying the bills, they turn the heat off. Is that hard to understand?

    So, yes, the State Department crystal-gazers and their corporate-racketeer friends might think they have Putin by the shorthairs by buying up Ukraine's pipelines, but the guy who owns the gas (Gazprom) is still in the driver's seat. And he's going to do what's in the best interests of himself and his shareholders. Someone should explain to John Kerry that that's just how capitalism works.

    Washington's policy in Ukraine is such a mess, it really makes one wonder about the competence of the people who come up with these wacko ideas. Did the brainiacs who concocted this plan really think they'd be able to set up camp between two major trading partners, turn off the gas, reduce a vital transit country into an Iraq-type basketcase, and start calling the shots for everyone in the region?

    It's crazy.

    Europe and Russia are a perfect fit. Europe needs gas to heat its homes and run its machinery. Russia has gas to sell and needs the money to strengthen its economy. It's a win-win situation. What Europe and Russia don't need is the United States. In fact, the US is the problem. As long as US meddling persists, there's going to be social unrest, division, and war. It's that simple. So the goal should be to undermine Washington's ability to conduct these destabilizing operations and force US policymakers to mind their own freaking business. That means there should be a concerted effort to abandon the dollar, ditch US Treasuries, jettison the petrodollar system, and force the US to become a responsible citizen that complies with International law.

    It won't happen overnight, but it will happen, mainly because everyone is sick and tired of all the troublemaking.

    [Jul 11, 2014] Press-Conference of Alexander Borodai and Igor Strelkov, July 10, 2014

    Looks like this is now a real civil war with the level of destruction and war crimes typical for civil wars. Due to overwhelming superiority in manpower and hardware eventually Donetsk will be surrounded by Kiev forces. Street fights in Donetsk with remnants of confederates who refuse to surrender and decide to fight to the bitter end might lead to destruction of the substantial part of the infrastructure of the city. And war party in Kiev dominates because coup of February 22 brought to power the most nationalistic part of Ukrainian political spectrum and in this political atmosphere "negotiations with the enemy" for Poroshenko are personally dangerous.
    Translated from Russian by Gleb Bazov
    (Note: Rough Translation; Subject to Change)

    Video: Press-Conference of Alexander Borodai and Igor Stelkov, Donetsk, July 10, 2014

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08KdvFpz-84

    ... ... ...

    Military Briefing from Igor Strelkov

    Igor Strelkov: Speaking briefly, the enemy is moving on to a systematic siege of Donetsk and of the entire Donetsk-Makeevka urban agglomeration. Attempting to close the encirclement on all sides.

    To the north, the enemy is advancing in the direction of Lisichansk. Yesterday, our forces left the city of Seversk in response to the direct danger of being encircled. The detachments of the Militia have moved on to positions atop the strategic heights between Seversk and Lisichansk. Our advance positions in this region are spread along the Popasnoye-Gorlovka-Dzerzhinsk line, terminating in Donetsk.

    This morning, obstinate fighting resumed in the Karlovka area. The enemy attempted to attack using tank and infantry units. The attack was repelled. Two tanks were destroyed. The infantry attack was repelled. Thereafter, and until present, an artillery battle between the two sides has been continuing in the area. Reinforcements, which should repel the enemy's attack, have been sent to the location. Unfortunately, we also have sustained losses there.

    The front lines continue from Karlovka along the western outskirts, along the suburban settlements of Donetsk. From there, along the southern outskirts of Donetsk, all the way to Ilovais'k. From there, along the line to Shakhtars'k-Torez-Snezhnoye.

    The major hostilities on the southern front have concentrated in the areas of the Saur Mogila [strategic height] and the villages of Dmitrovka and Stepanovka, where uninterrupted positional battles and exchanges of artillery strikes continue.

    Today, at 14:00, our special purpose [spetsnaz] unit, supported with artillery, attacked the enemy positions in the area of the [Donetsk] airport. Our units were not tasked with taking control of the airport. Nevertheless, our side inflicted serious manpower losses on the enemy. There were no losses on our part.

    Overall, the situation remains tense. However, the Militia is prepared to defend Donetsk and the entire Donetsk urban agglomeration firmly and steadfastly. We expect to be able to retain key positions around the city and will not allow the enemy inside city or permit Donetsk to be encircled from the East or the Northeast.

    In this regard, we are absolutely certain that assistance will be furnished by the units of Alexander Mozogovoi, who is formally a part of the LPR [Lugansk People's Republic] army, but has been acting in operational subordination to our headquarters. Moreover, we [ourselves] have the necessary reserves to parry the enemy's strikes. We were able to free up these reserves by withdrawing from Slavyansk, Kramatorsk, Druzhkovka and Konstantinovka. Unfortunately, there was no other manner in which we could have freed up these resources.

    I am prepared to answer your question to the extent I am able and to the extent I am permitted to do so by the demands of military secrecy.

    Massive Evacuation of Refugees from Parts of Donetsk Expected

    Alexander Borodai: I would like to add something here. So, in the circumstances in which we find ourselves, we are forced to consider a partial evacuation of certain areas of Donetsk. We want to make sure that both the Russian and the global public is ready for what is to come. A partial evacuation will entail the exodus of several hundred thousand civilians from the city and its neighbouring areas.

    Unfortunately, this is the necessity that looms over us. There is nothing that we can do about it. It now appears that we may be forced to proceed in this way. To preclude a humanitarian catastrophe, or, at least, to attempt to avoid it. And to avoid the death of a large number of civilians. This is the first point that I wanted to make. The second clarification concerns the various rumours and disinformation that the enemy has been spreading more or less successfully.

    With respect to various kinds of disagreements among the military units in Donetsk. With respect to various kinds of "commercial schemes" that allegedly exist, and in which some of the DPR military units are allegedly involved. These are lies and disinformation fabricated by the enemy.

    There are no disagreements. Joint operations have now been implemented, and the council of commanders will commence its activities in the nearest future. I expect that, in the nearest future, we will have the benefit of organized and coordinated activity on the part of our military units present on the territory of DPR.

    For now, that is all, thank you. We are expecting your questions. You can ask questions of me, as well as of our Minister of Defence. Simply introduce yourself and go ahead with your questions.

    .... ... ...

    Evacuation from Donetsk and Coordination with Lugansk People's Republic

    ... ... ...

    Alexander Borodai: We will see where the people wish to evacuate. But I think that everyone will want to evacuate to the Russian Federation.

    Reporter: And has the Russian Federation promised to you that they will accept that many refugees?

    Alexander Borodai: We will be discussing this matter with the Russian Federation. The problem is not whether the Russian Federation is promising to accept that many refugees or not. The issue is survival. The Russian Federation will not refuse to accept the refugees simply because it cannot permit itself to do so. It cannot allow itself to refuse them.

    Question: How will the evacuation be implemented? Will the people be forced to evacuate, or will this be a voluntary evacuation?

    Alexander Borodai: No, of course not. This will be a voluntary evacuation. It is simply that the situation is such that we are forced to evacuate the people, and many of them would want to do so.

    Igor Strelkov: All right, briefly. At this time, we are forming a joint staff of the military forces of the Donetsk and the Lugansk People's Republics. The location of the headquarters has already been established. The formation process is nearing its culmination. In the nearest term, the unified military command of Novorossiya will be ready. At this time, this is all that I can say with respect to this issue.

    If he is prepared closely and qualitatively to cooperate with us, then he will remain the mayor. We know him to be a good administrator. If he continues to play politics, offer us negotiations, offer to be the middle man in the negotiations process, which, frankly speaking, he has done on many occasions – he has made these kinds of offers to me – then we are entirely uninterested in this.

    He is either a mayor, an administrator, or he is a politician. And we are not prepared to have him act as a politician or as a middle-man in our "relations" with Kiev, in relation which do not exist. We are prepared to employ him as a mayor.

    If he does not want to remain in this role, then he will have to leave, and he will be replaced with another person. To leave does not mean to stand against a wall and be executed. To leave means to pack up things and quietly go either simply home or to any other place of his own choosing.

    Reporter: Igor Ivanovich, could you add anything to the answer provided by Alexander Vladimirovich?

    Igor Strelkov: It was an exhaustive response.

    Reporter: And, continuing with this question, you mentioned that there might be some other person. Do you know who this person could be?

    Alexander Borodai: We are considering candidacies. Naturally, he must be an administrator, first and foremost. But this means an administrator that himself must be loyal to the government of the Donetsk People's Republic. I consider this to be absolutely correct.

    Moreover, I repeat, there will now be attempts, all the time, to cause discord in our joint position with the DPR Commander-in-Chief. These attempts, I will tell you straight, are bound to fail. Our relationship is of a different calibre entirely. They will not work.

    ... ... ...

    Russian Citizens at the Head of the Donetsk People's Republic

    Reporter: I would like to ask the following question: the Donetsk People's Republic and the People's Militia of Donbass positions itself as being comprised of people that come from the land of Donbass. How did it come to be that before us are two citizens of the Russian Federation that command the entire enterprise? How did it happen?

    Alexander Borodai: (smiling) I'll tell you it's worse that that. There are two Muscovites sitting before you.
    ... ... ...

    Alexander Borodai: We see nothing wrong in this. Absolutely nothing. I would like to tell you that both Igor and I have been volunteers for a very long time. The volunteer movement is very developed in Russia.

    The people of Donbass rose up by themselves. The fact that due to certain competencies, qualities and abilities both of us ended up at the head of this movement – well, that's what happened. This is normal and natural.

    Moreover, please take into account the fact that the entire liberation movement of Donbass is oriented toward the Russian Federation. Oriented, however you put it, be it spiritually or otherwise. And expects Moscow's arrival here, in a good sense of the word. Expects, desires, simply prays for it – prays for the time of this arrival. And, simply put, any people from Moscow are welcomed here.

    And, moreover, I would like to make a further announcement – fortunately, the person has arrived – with respect to people from Moscow, there are more and more of these people here. For instance, at the next Supreme Council session, we anticipate putting forward the candidacy of a new Vice-Premier of the Donetsk People's Republic.

    I would like you all to welcome Vladimir Yuryevich Antjufeev. Vladimir Yuryevich, I hope you can say a couple of word to us.

    ... ... ...

    Vladimir Antjufeev: Ladies and gentlemen, briefly about myself. My name is Vladimir Yuryevich, born in 1951. I am Russian and a citizen of the Russian Federation.

    My primary education is in law. As well, I am a graduate of the Academy of Government Administration of the President of the Russian Federation, in the National Security Department. I hold a PhD in Political Science and teach as a professor at the Academy of Military Science.

    My entire adult life and service I have devoted to fighting national-fascism in Latvia, in Moldova, and, now, in Ukraine (as well as in Georgia). I have been granted state awards by the Soviet Union, Transnistria, Russia, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia. I say this not to boast, but simply to identify the functional points of my competency and the basis of my influence.

    I was invited by the leadership of the Donetsk People's Republic to facilitate the creation of law-enforcement structures, because the national-fascists of Ukraine, which have unleashed, under the leadership of the Kiev government, a war against the people of the South-East, have, in perpetrating these hostilities, substantially destabilized and undermined the functionality of these structures.

    The task I see before me consists of reconstructing the functionality of these structures, relying primarily on the local law-enforcement cadre, to ensure that each and every citizen of the Donetsk People's Republic is, first and foremost, clearly confident that both his personal and his property rights are protected.

    I will conduct my activities in strict compliance with the law and the existing legislation and from the standpoint of the highest principles of fairness and a high civic duty. My military rank is Lieutenant-General. Please ask your questions.

    Reporter: What will you be curating in the new government? What will be the scope of your responsibilities?

    Vladimir Antjufeev: National security, the Ministry of Interior, the courts and the justice system, and so on.

    Reporter: Thank you.

    Vladimir Antjufeev: Well, as for the Prosecutor's Office – we will be cooperating with the Prosecutor's Office.

    Reporter: So, in other words, the entire security apparatus, correct?

    Vladimir Antjufeev: No, hold on, not exactly. The military component is excluded here – this is the prerogative of the leadership of the Republic. We will certainly build our relation on the basis of cooperation, exchange of information and the planning of joint operations in ensuring state security and the defence of the Donetsk People's Republic.

    ... ... ...

    The Situation Surrounding Battalion Vostok and Commander Khodokovskiy

    Reporter: If I may ask a question: who is currently in command of Battalion Vostok? What powers will Khodokovskiy continue to retain? Will he continue as the head of Battalion Vostok?

    Igor Strelkov: As it is well known, Battalion Vostok is exists as a structure within the Ministry of State Security. However, the units of Battalion Vostok that serve on the frontlines are in operational subordination to the staff of the Militia. Specifically, I repeat, in operational subordination. In the future, they will continue as part of the Ministry of State Security.

    Alexander Borodai: What does this say to you? Alexander Khodokovskiy is at this time the Minister of National Security of the Donetsk People's Republic. Battalion Vostok is a military unit subordinated to him. However, because, at this time, this military unit is engaged in frontline duties, it cannot be involved in the operations of the Ministry of National Security. They simply have not had the opportunity to be involved.

    I am hoping that now Vladimir Yuryevich will seriously help us in making the National Security units work. And so, I apologize, I moved off the topic. And so, because Vostok is engaged primarily in frontline duties, accordingly, it has been operationally subordinated to the DPR Commander-in-Chief, Igor Ivanovich Strelkov.

    Reporter: Ok, it's just that Gubarev said yesterday that this is how it is. About the fact that Vostok …

    Alexander Borodai: You know … please tell me, what is Pavel Gubarev's official capacity here? Can you explain this to me? Well, you see, and I can't either. You listen to commentary by various unofficial leaders, some of whom are respected, while others – less so. Well, his statement is not official, and now you are being provided with an official statement by the government. And this official position is what it is.

    Could There Be a Retreat from Donetsk?

    Reporter: May I ask another question? If, God forbid, the situation in Donetsk becomes the same as it was in Slavyansk, has a plan been prepared for the Militia to retreat, as it was done in Slavyansk?

    Alexander Borodai: An enigmatic question. And where are you from, if I may ask? No, there is no such plan. We will continue to defend the territory of the Donetsk People's Republic. And not only will we defend it – we will cleanse it from occupation, cleanse it from the occupation troops, which, indeed, currently hold a very substantial part of our territory. However, I am certain that this is an entirely temporary phenomenon.

    Encouragement for Mariupol

    Reporter: If I may ask another question in this regard. Here we have representatives from Mariupol. And, the thing is, I would like to hear some words of encouragement for our city.

    Alexander Borodai: We are aware that the situation there is difficult. What can I say? Hold strong. I believe that we will come to your aid. We will seek to do so in the nearest future.

    Statement Made by Kurginiyan
    ... ... ...

    Igor Strelkov: I heard about Messr. Kurginyan's statement and I was told, roughly, what he said. However, frankly speaking, the statement itself did not interest me in terms of its contents. I did not even bother to read it.

    The thing is, in my day-to-day actions I am guided, first of all, by military expediency, and, second, by my conscience. The military expediency in withdrawing the garrison from Slavyansk was obvious then, and it has become even more obvious now. My conscience is absolutely clear.

    So, Messr. Kurginyan can claim what he wants. And, moreover, it is a pity that a person whose analytical articles previously aroused my interest and respect came out with a statement that is fairly improper. However, in general, his words did not rattle me, which is exactly what I told him in our evening telephone conversation when I invited him, in a fairly correct manner, simply to come in for a conversation. In fact, my tone was more than just polite.

    Well, it looks like he became afraid of some sort of actions on my part and did not come. However, I will take this opportunity to tell him that I was in no way hurt by his statement, and that I am even ready to discuss this further with him in calm and planned surroundings.

    Alexander Borodai: Allow me also to add something to the issue of Messr. Kurginyan's statement. As for me, I, frankly speaking, had a very strong inclination, a very strong desire to arrest Messr. Kurginyan, and the sole obstacle to his arrest was the opinion of Messr. Strelkov.

    This is because I consider his statement not only to be rude to the core and also impermissible in its content, but also an element of the enemy, of Ukrainian propaganda. And I would not have held Messr. Kurginyan for long – I would have simply sent him back where, judging by the essence of his statement, he came from. [In other words,] to the Ukrainian positions. Because the impression he made was that he works entirely for the benefit of the Ukrainian propaganda machine. In essence, directly fulfilling its orders.

    Naturally, various rumours of all kinds arose that Messr. Kurginyan came here not just because but at the bidding of someone from Kremlin or from one of Kremlin's towers. I can that, being a professional in my field, and since I was in Moscow while Messr. Kurginyan made his statement, I made the necessary inquiries.

    As it turns out, Messr. Kurginyan was not representing any Kremlin structure while he was here. This is politely speaking. Neither any pro-Kremlin, nor even a near-Kremlin structure. He came here at someone else's bidding. And I think that the interests that Messr. Kurginyan was serving here are to be found far to the west of the city of Moscow.

    Further Clarification of the Situation with Battalion Vostok and Khodokovskiy

    Reporter: Can you please clarify the situation with Battalion Vostok? For example, Pavel Gubarev stated yesterday that [Khodokovskiy] is refusing to subordinate to the DPR leadership, that he has moved to Makeevka, and promised that, in the nearest future, certain facts will be made public. What is the situation at this time?

    Alexander Borodai: (smirking) Pavel Gubarev is a unique source of information, I tell you. Keep listening. You will get a lot of various information. I had a conversation with Alexander Khodokovskiy yesterday. There are no problems of this kind at this time.

    Igor Strelkov: Alexander Vladimirovich, you should not forget that Pavel Gubarev has been appointed the head of the Mobilization Department.

    Alexander Borodai: Oh, yes, I forgot.

    Igor Strelkov: So, please do not disavow him entirely here.

    Alexander Borodai: I will not, entirely. I simply want to say that political statements are not part of his responsibilities.

    Igor Strelkov: Ladies and gentlemen, there will be, of course, as in any guerrilla movement when it is transformed into a regular army, many disagreements, collisions of interest, clashes of ambitions, and other issues not permitted by military regulations. Nevertheless, it is important not to assign critical importance to any such skirmishes, disconnects, and lack of understanding.

    Messr. Khodokovskiy visited me twice in Slavyansk in the April of this year. And we found then, between the two of us, sufficient commonality of interests and agreed to certain cooperation. I am certain that, when we meet face to face, we will again find a common language and will work together, side by side.

    With respect to everything else, I can say that the units of Battalion Vostok are, at this time, working in direct cooperation with the Militia and performing battlefield assignments and have been fulfilling them for some time now. As for coordination between our headquarters, it has existed since the first day of our arrival in Slavyansk. That is all.

    The Looming Humanitarian Catastrophe

    Reporter: Do you know how many people have left the city of Donetsk? Because I heard today from the representatives of the city that over a hundred thousand resident have already left the city.

    Alexander Borodai: To whom is your question addressed? To me? Ok. At of this time, over seventy thousand resident have left Donetsk. This is indeed the truth. Not a hundred thousand, but over seventy thousand. It is natural that this process will continue.

    The worse the situation gets, the more dangerous it becomes for the lives [of the residents], the more difficult it gets from the social standpoint, naturally, the more residents will leave. I will remind that I have already said at many press-conferences that the territory of the Donetsk People's Republic, the entire territory of Donbass, is not only facing the threat of a humanitarian catastrophe, but that this catastrophe is already upon us.

    It is simply that, as any phenomenon of this kind, it does not appear overnight in its full vigour, but the situation develops progressively. And so, this situation has been developing gradually, and it is becoming worse and worse.

    It is understood that, in Slavyansk, a situation like that was created a long time ago, and that it was very bad there. Well, we are not here to talk about it. It is understood that it will become worse here the more this goes on, and that the residents will leave the city, as well as others on the territory of DPR – this is natural. We are attempting to help them in this regard.

    ... ... ...

    The Breakout from Slavyansk

    Reporter: Can you tell us what losses the Militia suffered in its retreat from Slavyansk, what were the human casualties, and what forces remain, how many armoured vehicles and other armaments?

    Igor Strelkov: Let me put it this way – over 90% of the personnel was able to withdraw from Slavyansk and successfully made it to Donetsk. Most of our losses were in terms of unreliable militiamen from the Kramatorsk garrison, rather than the casualties suffered during the retreat from Slavyansk.

    I repeat that over 90% of the Slavyansk garrison made it here. I am not able to give you specific numbers owing to the fact that it is a military secret. Losses were sustained at the very end of the breakout due to incompetence on the part of one of the commanders.

    Reporter: How much weaponry and ammunition was left in Slavyansk?

    Igor Strelkov: We retained a certain quantity of ammunition, and several armoured vehicles were lost at the very end of the breakout from Slavyansk.


    Posted by VINEYARDSAKER: at 10 comments:

    Daniel Rich:

    Does anyone know if there's any mention of how many wounded, maimed and KIA the forces loyal to Poro have suffered?

    The Kyivpost.com keeps a convenient running tally of losses of the Army, SBU, and Border Guards, as well as National Guard troops seconded to the military. The latest installment is here, and it is now up to 223 according to them.

    http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/nearly-50-servicemen-killed-since-june-19-death-toll-reaches-223-355557.html

    I have been tallying them out of personal interest, the provinces of origins of the dead, and also the numbers of widows and orphans created, as this growing scar from this Brother War will affect Ukrainian society down the road in ways we are unable to see now.

    Unfortunately for the interests of statistics, and following the lead of the Ukrainian State structure in this regard, this tally ignores the tremendous losses of the unofficial National Guard troops of Maidan activists and Right Sector goons and the private militia battalions of Liashko and Kolomoisky. Thus losses of Battalions Donbass, Azov, Idar, Dnipr, Kyiv, etc. are simply not counted and to this will now be added the Penal Battalions of the unwilling from Sloviansk and Kramatorsk. This also corresponds to information that can be read both on pro-Novorossiya sites and pro-EuroMaidan sites regarding National Guard troops and losses being kept "off the books", National Guard troops not being paid, etc. Everyone can make of this what they will. In my mind it certainly would be a piece of evidence towards all the worst suspicions voiced of unmarked mass graves, organ harvesting, and the planned execution via means of war of elements on both sides dangerous to the state structure of Ukraine and its ruling oligarchy.

    Of great interest to students of war is that in these official tallies, very few are from battles and most are from the downing of military aircraft and a handful massacres. Thus one might say that the official death toll fails to correspond to the reality of the war we can all see of numerous daily battles and enormous ammounts of ammunition and shells expended. To believe the official statistics as being complete is to believe the NAF Army mostly fires into the air and the ground.

    11 July, 2014 10:32

    Tom Garrett said...
    The terrible problem here is that the resistance, because it began in the cities and because it evidently could not develop and send out guerrilla cadres to harass enemy communications and (hopefully) expand, is stuck with a set piece war against an enemy with vastly greater resources. Add to this its staggering responsibility hundreds of thousands of of vulnerable civilians.

    If the defenders of Donetsk can launch a series of short, sharp attacks that hurt the enemy and rebuild their own confidence they have a chance to hold the city. Maybe there will be another "Miracle of the Donetsk". Real and active Russian support could change everything. Without it the situation is grave indeed.


    11 July, 2014 11:01

    hardcore said...
    An interesting development announced on Strelkov's VK account: A website to collect information about Ukie troops location and movement.
    Welcome to 21th century warfare...

    [Jul 11, 2014] Kiev troops in Slav'ansk have set up "urns" in public places where people can rat on their neighbours and relatives as being sympathetic to separatists.

    yalensis, July 10, 2014 at 4:12 pm
    Simon Ostrovsky returns to occupied Slav'ansk.

    In other sources, I saw that Banderite occupiers in Slav'ansk have set up "urns" in public places where people can sneak in the middle of the night and deposit written denunciations of their neighbours and relatives as being sympathetic to separatists.

    People with some knowledge of history have pointed out that even back in the day, when Hitler's army occupied Slav'ansk, such things were not done. The Nazis had too much class to resort to such tactics.

    Even your worst Nazi had a certain moral core, and there were certain things they simply would not do.

    Which the Banderites readily do.

    marknesop says: , July 10, 2014 at 6:04 pm
    Hopefully they will fill up with joke tips – and they will have to read them all – like "Poroshenko is a separatist" and "Parubiy is getting it on with his Mum". Or riddles like "How come we drive on a parkway and park in a driveway?" or "When they ship styrofoam, what do they pack it in?". But in Ukrainian, of course, and I have no sense of what's funny in Ukrainian. Maybe "What's the difference between Proshenko and a carp? One is a scum-sucking bottom-feeder. The other one is a fish".

    Those Box-o'-Betrayals dumps are a bad idea, because what's to stop partisans from getting up at 4:00 AM and emptying them so they can find out who are the traitors in their midst?

    yalensis says: , July 10, 2014 at 6:30 pm
    Or set up webcams so they can monitor who are the "anonymous" stool pigeons?
    marknesop, July 10, 2014 at 6:48 pm
    Ooooo….I never even thought of that. Maybe we should just take over Ukraine ourselves, and you can be Minister of Craftiness.

    [Jul 10, 2014] Russian Seizes Authority Over Ukraine Rebels By NOAH SNEIDER

    Jul 10, 2014 | nytimes.com

    SLOVYANSK, Ukraine - Late one afternoon last month, as separatist militia fighters and Ukrainian forces exchanged fire, a small-time thief by the name of Aleksei B. Pichko left his home on the southern edge of Slovyansk and headed for an abandoned residence at 17 Sadovaya Street. He had been drinking, and wanted to "see what could be stolen from there," according to documents recovered at the rebel headquarters after their retreat over the weekend.

    Mr. Pichko, 30, never returned. An order signed and stamped by the rebels' powerful commander, Igor Strelkov, detailed Mr. Pichko's fate: death by firing squad for pilfering a pair of pants and two shirts.

    "They told me they took him to the S.B.U.," said his mother, Maria Pichko, referring to the headquarters in this former separatist stronghold. "I don't know anything more."

    The death sentence makes reference to a Stalin-era Soviet law, and in it Mr. Strelkov warns ominously that crimes "committed in the zone of military activity will continue to be punished ruthlessly and decisively."

    Mr. Strelkov, a native Muscovite whose real name is Igor Girkin, is a figure as mysterious as he is fearsome. On Thursday, he made his first public appearance after months of fighting, attending a news conference in the provincial capital of Donetsk alongside Alexander Borodai, another Russian citizen leading the uprising here.

    Having lost Slovyansk, Mr. Strelkov has moved to assert his authority over the fractious separatist militias that are gathering in Donetsk and Luhansk, the other major city in the rebellious east, rallying them for an urban war that would be both bloody and destructive - not to speak of suicidal, in the eyes of many analysts.

    "The enemy is putting Donetsk under siege," Mr. Strelkov said, unsmiling, with his hands folded. "The situation overall is tense, but the militia are ready to defend Donetsk. They are counting on holding their positions on the edges of the city and on preventing the enemy from coming inside the city."

    An ultranationalist and reactionary, Mr. Strelkov fits an increasingly familiar profile in Russia, one that has emerged strongly with the re-election of President Vladimir V. Putin. Messianic and militaristic, such figures combine a deep belief in Russia's historic destiny with a contempt for the "decadent" West, while yearning for the re-establishment of a czarist empire.

    "Strelkov is almost a caricature of the Putin era," said Mark Galeotti, an expert on the Russian security services at New York University.

    A former intelligence agent, Mr. Strelkov fought in the post-Soviet conflicts in Transnistria, Serbia and Chechnya. Yet his ideological rigidity precedes any connections he has to Russia's security services, stretching back at least to his days at the Moscow State Institute for History and Archives. There, Mr. Strelkov obsessed over military history and joined a small but vocal group of students who advocated a return to monarchism.

    "This is a person who lives in the beginning of the 20th century," said Aleksei Makarkin, who studied with Mr. Strelkov in college. "He was like this even back then."

    Were it not for the Ukraine crisis, he might have followed his passions mostly in obscurity. But he joined in the Russian takeover of Crimea and after that moved on to eastern Ukraine - with or without authorization from Moscow - where he consolidated control over the rebel military wing by imposing a system of dark and ruthless justice.

    Kiev and its Western allies have said he is an active Russian agent, but they have offered no proof, and Mr. Strelkov has often seemed to follow his own counsel, rather than Moscow's dictates.

    "When he moved into eastern Ukraine, I suspect, it was him taking his own initiative," Mr. Galeotti said. "We saw him doing things that didn't fit Russia's direct game plan," such as holding hostage for weeks military observers from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe.

    With the Kremlin now talking about peace and ratcheting down the volume on its anti-Kiev propaganda, Mr. Strelkov may be facing a bleak future. He has been openly critical of Moscow for failing to provide more aid to the rebels, and has been criticized for it lately by Russian officials. But many analysts fear that Mr. Strelkov could go rogue, making it difficult even for the Kremlin to bring the warring parties in eastern Ukraine to the negotiating table.

    From the documents left behind in his headquarters, it is obvious that he ran his own iron-fisted show in Slovyansk. In the fetid basement of his headquarters in the local security services building, which served as a dungeon for some of his dozens of hostages, a ceramic bowl full of prison food remained, uneaten and curdled. Socks still hung to dry from wooden sticks wedged into the wall. A plastic bottle collected drippings from the ceiling - water the detainees likely used to wash themselves with a single shared bar of soap.

    Alongside Mr. Pichko's file were documents detailing two other trials by "military-field tribunal," which include handwritten witness statements addressed to Mr. Strelkov. In one case, a man accused of shining a flashlight to inform Ukrainian troops of rebel positions was acquitted. In another, however, Mr. Strelkov ordered the execution of two militiamen who allegedly kidnapped a local man and looted his home.

    In all three, Mr. Strelkov emerges as a man willing to take extreme measures.

    "They shot him for two shirts," Ms. Pichko said on the dirt road outside her home, tears welling. "It's not right."

    As Mr. Strelkov spoke on Thursday, rebel forces were engaged in an assault at the Donetsk airport, where black smoke rose into the evening. A Ukrainian military spokesman said that the attack was repelled, but reported the deaths of three soldiers elsewhere in the east - one killed in an ambush outside Luhansk and two by a land mine in a village near Donetsk. And along the border with Russia, Ukrainian forces seized control of a crossing at Chervonopartyzansk, according to the presidential administration.

    Rebel leaders announced that they would be evacuating "tens of thousands" of people from certain neighborhoods of Donetsk in the coming days.
    Continue reading the main story Continue reading the main story
    Continue reading the main story

    Mr. Borodai declined to say which neighborhoods, but said the evacuations would be voluntary, and were necessary to prevent a "humanitarian catastrophe."

    At the news conference, Mr. Strelkov appeared resolute, despite the Ukrainian military's new momentum and the apparent change of strategy in the Kremlin. He revealed that he had indeed served in the Russian F.S.B., the successor to the K.G.B., up until March 31, 2013, but that he had left the service. Western governments say that he is controlled by Russia's military intelligence service, the G.R.U.

    Either way, there can be little doubt that he relishes the battlefield, and that he will be highly reluctant to give it up. He wrote about his attachment to war in his memoirs of the fighting in Bosnia, published in 1999.

    "After the first euphoria - we're alive! - came the sensation familiar to most professional fighters: the desire to risk it again, to live a 'full' life," he wrote. "It's the so-called 'gunpowder poisoning syndrome.' "

    [Jul 10, 2014] Patchwork Makeup of Rebels Fighting Ukraine Makes Peace Talks Elusive by SABRINA TAVERNISE and DAVID M. HERSZENHORN

    Jul 09, 2014 | nytimes.com

    DONETSK, Ukraine - One rebel group, Oplot, comes from the Ukrainian city of Kharkiv. Another, the Russian Orthodox Army, is composed of Russians and Ukrainians. A third, named for a river, Kalmius, is made up mainly of coal miners.

    This motley mix forms just part of the fighting force of Ukraine's eastern uprising. It is more patchwork than united front: Some groups get along with others. Some do not. And their leaders seem to change with the weather.

    ... ... ...

    The calculus may have changed recently with the appearance in Donetsk of Igor Girkin, a Russian citizen and rebel leader who goes by the name Strelkov, or shooter. He surfaced over the weekend along with hundreds of rebels who abandoned their positions after being overpowered by the Ukrainian military in weeks of fighting in the city of Slovyansk.

    ... ... ...

    But in recent weeks, fighters have complained that Moscow abandoned them, a sentiment that burst into public view this week when a political strategist closely allied with the Kremlin was shouted at by fighters at a news conference here.

    The deputy prime minister of the Donetsk People's Republic, Andrei Purgin, said in an interview on Wednesday that Mr. Strelkov was trying to stitch the patchwork of militias into one professional army, to which soldiers would swear an oath. But the task is difficult, he said, as some fighters want to stick close to home.

    "It is our hope that it will be one collective organ," Mr. Purgin said, sitting on a yellow couch in the government administration building in Donetsk that the rebels control.

    [Jul 10, 2014] Kyiv's Atrocities? A More Nuanced Look at the Ukraine Crisis by Steven Pifer

    Steven Pifer is an apologist of Neoconservatism and trying to defend it he spill the beans
    The key idea of this apologetics is simple: "Neoconservatism and color revolutions make sense and serve the interest of the american people". This is a questionable thesis unless by "American people" we understood the top 1%, or even the top 0.1%.
    I also think Steven Pifer should have more sympathy to confederates, as he positions himself as right wing hawk in this discussion ;-). After all Donetsk rebels are nothing but a confederates fighting like their American counterparts for more autonomy from the central government in Kiev. Presenting them all as pro-Russian forces is wrong (most of them want Donbass to stay in Ukraine, but with far great level of autonomy then Kiev is ready to offer).
    Also as a former United States Ambassador to Ukraine (1998-2000) he should know far better the danger of Ukrainian Ultranationalists. It was Bush I who told Ukranians (Chicken Kiev speech)
    "Americans will not support those who seek independence in order to replace a far-off tyranny with a local despotism. They will not aid those who promote a suicidal nationalism based upon ethnic hatred."
    Here the USA with its color revolution (aka EutoMaidan) really put this powerful and destructive jinni out of the bottle, and in no way they can put him back. And the last but not least -- it is very humiliating for him to repeat what Robert Kagan would say on the subject... After all Robert Kogan is just an overweight neocon -- paid propagandist of military industrial complex, so to speak. But it looks like Brookings Foundation still think that "Neoconservatism still matters".
    July 8, 2014 | brookings.edu
    Share on email Share on twitter Share on facebook Share on linkedin Share on google_plusone_share Share on stumbleupon Share on reddit Share on print

    Stephen F. Cohen published an article in The Nation on July 1 entitled "The Silence of American Hawks about Kyiv's Atrocities." It makes for an interesting read, though it places virtually all the blame for the distressing crisis in Ukraine on the Ukrainian government and Washington. That situation, however, cannot be painted in the black and white strokes used by Dr. Cohen; there are many shades of gray. I try to see the grays, though I should note at the outset that Dr. Cohen would likely lump me with the hawks. Much of his article, however, paints a black and white picture that omits crucial context and detail. Some examples.

    Dr. Cohen's article equates the actions of the armed separatists in the eastern Ukrainian regions of Donetsk and Luhansk with the protests on the Maidan Square in Kyiv. The Maidan demonstrations were overwhelmingly peaceful until the police assaults on February 18. To be sure, buildings around the Maidan were seized (and one rented)-mainly to provide shelter given the bitter winter temperatures. And a small group of protestors (which included ultranationalists) started clashes with police in mid-January, but their number never amounted to a small fraction of the peaceful demonstrations a couple of blocks away.

    What took place in Donetsk and Luhansk was different. There were no peaceful demonstrations on the scale of the Maidan. Instead, armed separatists seized local administration and police buildings. In some cases, they were led by "little green men"-the term Ukrainians applied to the soldiers in Russian-style combat fatigues but no identifying insignia who seized Crimea (later acknowledged by Vladimir Putin to have been Russian troops). Equating such activities in black and white terms with the Maidan is a very long stretch.

    I agree with Dr. Cohen about the horrific nature of what transpired in Odessa on May 2, when dozens perished in a trade union building fire, though I would not be so quick to draw analogies to Nazi exterminations. There should be a full investigation, and the Ukrainian government would be wise to invite forensic experts from countries such as Finland to participate.

    But Dr. Cohen's description of the Odessa tragedy omits relevant information. First, by most accounts, the clashes began when a pro-Russian group attacked a peaceful pro-unity parade. Second, many reports say that some in the pro-Russian group used firearms. Third, while there is no doubt that pro-Ukraine demonstrators threw Molotov cocktails into the building, there is also evidence of people on and in the building with their own Molotov cocktails. Finally, once the fire broke out, there is footage of some from the pro-Ukraine group helping people escape the burning building. None of this justifies the inexcusable attack on the building, but it paints a grayer picture than Dr. Cohen's account.

    Dr. Cohen's narrative of the government's anti-terrorist operation implies that Kyiv started the conflict in the east. In fact, beginning on April 6, armed pro-Russian separatists seized numerous buildings before Ukrainian military and security forces began their operations on April 12. He suggests indiscriminate attacks on civilian population centers when most Ukrainian military operations appear aimed at a foe who is well-armed, including with tanks and sophisticated surface-to-air missiles (as witnessed by the shoot-downs of Ukrainian military aircraft, including a transport plane with 49 aboard).

    The role of the Right Sector organization is of concern, and Ukraine's government should act to disarm it. Some in the West, however, believe that Svoboda has made an effort to move away from its uglier roots. Dr. Cohen is right about their relatively large representation in the cabinet. But his account does not mention a major reason for that: the Party of Regions and the UDAR party, the first and third largest factions in the Ukrainian parliament, chose not to take positions when the new cabinet formed in February.

    Dr. Cohen's narrative too easily dismisses what the May 25 presidential election says about support among the Ukrainian people for right-wing ultra-nationalists. The leaders of Right Sector and Svoboda together garnered less than two percent of the vote. Even that overstates their support: armed separatists prevented voting in much of Donetsk and Luhansk, where 14 percent of the Ukrainian electorate resides, few of whom would have favored the Right Sector or Svoboda leaders. Dr. Cohen suggests that "small, determined movements can seize the moment" to imply the ultra-nationalists command authority beyond their poll numbers. Perhaps. But could the same concern not be raised about the armed separatists in Donetsk and Luhansk, where polls have shown that most people wish to remain a part of Ukraine?

    Dr. Cohen writes that the anti-terrorist operation can only be halted in Washington and Kyiv. By most accounts, Ukrainian forces significantly ratcheted down operations during the ten-day ceasefire that ended on June 30. It is not clear the separatists did. Surely they have some voice in whether a ceasefire can be made to hold?

    Dr. Cohen lets Russia entirely off the hook, noting that, after the annexation of Crimea, Putin showed "remarkable restraint." Even setting aside the seizure of Crimea-the most blatant land-grab in Europe since the end of World War II-it is difficult to describe Russian actions since then as restraint. Moscow over the past three months has sought to destabilize Ukraine. Among other things, it blocked Ukrainian exports to Russia; dramatically raised the price of gas it sold to Ukraine (to levels far above what Germany and Austria pay, despite their higher transit costs); kept tens of thousands of troops mobilized on Ukraine's eastern border; and allowed fighters, supplies and equipment, including tanks, to cross from Russia into Ukraine. Restraint?

    Dr. Cohen expresses concern that inflamed Russian elite and public opinion may force Mr. Putin to take stronger actions, including military intervention. That is indeed a concern, but his article could and should have noted why Russian opinion is inflamed: the one-sided Soviet-style propaganda campaign carried out by Mr. Putin's own state media.

    The situation in Ukraine is complex and gray shaded. There is plenty of blame to go around. But Dr. Cohen's article fails to capture that and instead paints a misleading black and white picture that masks the more nuanced reality.

    ====

    Steven Pifer Director, Arms Control and Non-Proliferation Initiative Senior Fellow, Foreign Policy, Center on the United States and Europe, Center for 21st Century Security and Intelligence

    Selected Comments

    George Antrobus

    Thank you, Mr. Pifer, for your factual, reasoned, and restrained response to Stephen Cohen's inflammatory article.

    I read Cohen's diatribe on the day of its publication (he revised it yesterday, but did not shift it materially in the direction of reality). It was so biased, inaccurate, and laden with interpretations that are (at the least) highly debatable, I didn't choose to take the time to even offer a comment.

    I have seen Mr. Cohen express great irritation at accusations that he is an apologist for Putin. Nonetheless, his "facts," interpretations, and judgments match the consensus of Putin apologists with precision.

    Mr. Pifer refers to one of the article's more bizarre claims: faced with empirical evidence that Ukraine decisively rejects ultra-nationalist bigotry -- the miniscule vote received by far-right parties in Ukraine's recent presidential election -- Cohen breezily dismisses this solid fact, maintaining that the bogey men can "seize the moment" in traumatic times. Were not betrayal by then-president Yanukovich, invasion by Russia leading to theft of a large piece of Ukraine's territory (and nearly all of Ukraine's petroleum reserves) and the violent infiltration and occupation of numerous cities and towns sufficient trauma for such seizure "of the moment," were it ever to occur?

    Cohen accuses Ukraine's lawfully elected government of "atrocities" "that are rising to the level of war crimes". This is very strong language indeed -- and supported in his article principally by the statement that these deeds have been "captured on video". I still don't know what Cohen means by these terms. Is he suggesting that Ukraine is deliberately targeting innocents for slaughter, as in Nazi Germany? Has he determined that Ukraine's government had better options for the defense of national and territorial integrity, that would have meant less civilian casualties? Or, for Mr. Cohen, are ALL military actions that carry some risk of death or injury to non-combatants "atrocities" and "war crimes?" If his article explained this, I missed that part.

    When separatist traitors were trying to tear the USA in two, and cowardly lodged themselves in towns, the US Army sometimes fired its artillery against those towns, and civilians suffered. Was that a war crime?

    When the Russian Federation -- a state for which Mr. Cohen seems to have the most exquisite sympathies -- faced an armed separatist movement (a rebellion, I suggest, that was FAR less dangerous to Russia than present events are to Ukraine, and a rebellion made without the participation of a hostile state, or occupation of Russia's territory by a baleful foreign enemy), civilian deaths were at least 35,000 (by the most conservative estimates) and perhaps as great as 200,000. Mr. Putin's Russia never made an effort to count the innocent dead.

    Based on current information, deaths of non-combatants in eastern Ukraine appear to be in the dozens -- probably less than 50. Is it not worth considering, that perhaps Ukraine's government has taken pains to minimize civilian casualties while taking necessary steps in the country's defense?

    For a more recent basis of comparison, Putin's Russia made war on Georgia for just a few days, including a prolonged assault against Gori that had no apparent military purpose (Putin explained that it was "punishment.") More than 100 Georgian civilians died, and more than 500 were wounded.

    I wonder, does Mr. Cohen worry that by grotesquely aping Kremlin propaganda, and minimizing Russia's responsibility for bloodshed in Ukraine, he is perhaps aiding and abetting atrocities and war crimes?

    SUNchess -> George Antrobus

    I was in South Ossetia and saw Georgian troops fought against the civilian population. I saw the destroyed houses and talking to people. And I think that the Russian had the right to do what they did.

    Long arms america seen in Ukraine too.

    Valentin Gorenko

    I disagree with Steven Pifer, the situation in Ukraine cannot not be painted in gray, black is the correct color for describing it.

    More than five hundred people were arrested in my home town Kharkiv, and about forty of them vanished, which means they were most likely killed by the Kyivv's loyalist death squads.

    My people are getting killed daily in Donbass as well. Stephen Cohen is correct in his article about Kyivv's atrocities which are ignored in the US and EU.

    slava raczynska -> Valentin Gorenko
    That is most interesting. My family is also from Kharkiv and Donbass and most of the people that have gone "Missing" were the pro-Ukrainians. You seem to forget all the power in the east and Kyiv was held by pro-Russians (which is why Maidan started in the first place). If there are any complaints about the state of the economy or politics, it should be addressed to all the oligarchs who have fled to Moscow in Feb. They caused the problems with their blatant thievery.

    The Ukrainians deserve to decide their own fate without Kremlin interference. If a small minority want to be fascists (not unlike Putin and his buddies), its still better than being communists who were responsible for the destruction of over 45 million lives and continue to this day with the same KGB antics (only now they call themselves GRU). The situation is most definitely gray, largely because there are still many ethnic Russians who moved in after the Kremlin made Famine of 1933-34. These people are still on the fence over their loyalty to language or liberty.

    SUNchess -> slava raczynska

    Oh.. Famine 1933-34.))) it's a lie. Propaganda. Your brain is washed.

    Colin Robinson

    Regarding the May 2 tragedy in Odessa, you've agreed with Cohen that it was an "inexcusable attack", but you think the crowd who carried out the attack started out as a "peaceful pro-unity parade".

    Some questions to consider: What sort of equipment did the "peaceful parade" have? Did it include petrol bombs, for instance? What sort of slogans was the "peaceful parade" chanting? Did they include "Death to enemies" and "Knife the Moskals", as has been reported? Where did they plan to go, and what to do?

    Was it violence from the other side which turned a "peaceful parade" into a lynch mob? Or was the crowd in lynching mood from the start?

    UkrToday

    Peaceful protesters do not carry guns, bats and throw Molotov cocktails. Police do not shoot police. Rioters do.

    I think it is you that is trying to paint the picture n shade of beige or gray leaving out the detailed background of geo politics and US. NATO involvement

    You only have to listen to some of the statements of denial coming from Jen Psaki out of the US State office to realsie the extent of disinformation and propaganda.

    Sasha Kravets

    I would add more to this article. The fact that someone (Mr. Pifer) needs to write an article to try and show a more accurate picture of what is happening in Ukraine, indicates that Russian propaganda was successful in presenting to the world completely perverted and untrue reality. There can be no comparison between Maidan and the Russian invasion in the Eastern Ukraine. I will say it again: there is no crisis in Ukraine, there is a Russian invasion. The only reason people in the West do not understand that fact, is because Russian propaganda machine is working hard and is very dedicated. There are no rebels in Ukraine. There are Russian soldiers, Russian mercenaries, local mafia and small numbers of propaganda fooled locals that are kidnaping, killing, robbing and torturing people in the name of the fascist ideas of "Russian Spring". This operation has been prepared by Russia for years! The majority of Ukrainians in the Eastern part of the country are waiting for liberation and hope that this terror, which Russia started, will end soon.

    Kolorad -> Sasha Kravets

    O yeah! Russian soldiers, Russian mercenaries!!! Obviously there are many volunteers to fight ukrainian fascists... But the most of these people's army are LOCAL guys from Donbass... Russian lie? Russian propaganda? Tell that to the brave italian reporter that "amused" the crowd in Shuster Live TV show... O yeah! Surely this italian journalist also is Putin's agent, right? I've been sick and tired of Russian TV, but we already know that it is bad! Only because it's RUSSIAN! If it is western media it ALWAYS RIGHT, because it's on the "good guys" side, only because it's WESTERN! Please spare me your BS!!!

    BHebb

    Lots of facts missing from this article. I was here in Odessa and witnessed many of these events. There is no need in my view to take sides between Kiev and Russia, there are other alternatives to this tragedy which has fallen on Ukrainians, whether they are Russian speaking, Ukrainian speaking, or of some other language. We ought to be asking ourselves what we, as a society (and the USA certainly should be paying attention here) have done wrong when young people think it is okay in broad daylight (or any other time of the day for that matter) to mix Molotov Cocktails and throw them onto other people simply because they disagree with their views.

    Anyone is free to look at the videos of what happened in the Trade Union building in Odessa on May 2. There is no justification for what happened - albeit people are offering up lots of explanations. A group of people who had been sitting there for months were attacked and over 40 killed. None of that needed to happen - it was not fate. It was hatred. Conversations, as far as I can see, ought to be how we can get diverse groups in this large country to move away from this escalation. It is getting worse.

    I also disagree with this pointed argument against Stephen Cohen. You can agree or disagree with the points he raised - he is not opposed to that based on what I read by him and heard from his public discussions. He had advocated a public discussion - where people look at and examine the evidence. This is the principle behind much of what he said was needed.

    What is wrong with having a diverse public discourse on this? Surely no side is 100% right. No side ever is or was. That is the only thing I am certain about.

    factory_666

    [Sorry for the user name, old one from Disqus]

    I feel like Dr Cohen' article is a natural reaction to the generally one-sided reporting of Western, pre-dominantly American, outlets of the situation in Ukraine, which paints a very Black and White picture and almost takes sides with American establishment. While that doesn't make him right, it is not something unexpected since

    After coming to Moscow about two weeks ago and experiences first-hand the reporting of local news and their effect on the population it felt very much like I was still in the States reading Washington Post or NYT, it's just that they bother a little less with concealing their extreme bias.

    Russian media shows Ukrainian gov't as exclusively evil, backed by Neo Nazis and aided by American opportunistic Dept of State, while their military is aided by Neo Nazi vigilantes, while American media does exactly the same only paints separatists as terrorists and Putin as evil mastermind behind it all. While no one is surprised that Russian media is propagandistic, seeing major American media outlets, whether Republican or Democrat, blatantly "skip out" little facts about the conflict here and there to better shape the perspective of the reader that "Purin is evil and separatists are terrorists" is extremely unpleasant. Because when those skipped facts accumulate, American society's perspective on the situation is as skewed and biased as that of Russian society.

    NATA

    The Russian soldiers on the border, the American soldiers are at war worldwide far outside the USA which does all ostensibly in interests of citizens of America - clever commentators ask -what interest the USA in Ukraine? There live Americans? Why you Biden sits as the head of government of Ukraine? Why your advisers there work? If it is possible for the USA why no Russia help Russian in Ukraine? <

    Вячеслав

    Kiev gang of fascists should not wait for the end. This is only the beginning. Regret that you during the Second World War have not destroyed. If the truth on your side, why the Security Service of Ukraine killing Russian journalists, makes it impossible to work in Ukraine?, It is very strange. Time of reckoning will come to Kiev gang. Russian, can wait.

    Олег Люльчак

    Clumsy attempt to wash smeared in blood shirt. First: all seen the video where the police and "berkut" standing with shields and batons, and crowd drove a bulldozer and throwing Molotov cocktails. Secondly: similar riots in any country disbanded, including in the US. But in Ukraine, namely the U.S. government encouraged not to do anything as long as it has not led to the overthrow of the government. Thirdly: the Pro Odessa, there is a video which shows that the so-called Pro-Russian activists actually provocateurs, all were wearing red dressing on the sleeves, and after provocations (the attack on "the supporters of unity") went beyond the cordon of police, on the sleeves of which were the same dressing. And so on throughout the text. There are a huge number of video recorded on the spot, which is ignored by the leading media of the USA, and the Department of state.

    SUNchess

    I saw comparison of Maidan and the Russian invasion in the Eastern Ukraine

    Sure. Russians do not have $5 billion to create Maidan in Eastern Ukraine. Mr. Pifer forgot to say about this in his article. Forgetful analyst...

    Борис

    "The Maidan demonstrations were overwhelmingly peaceful until the police assaults on February 18. To be sure, buildings around the Maidan were seized (and one rented)-mainly to provide shelter given the bitter winter temperatures. And a small group of protestors (which included ultranationalists) started clashes with police in mid-January, but their number never amounted to a small fraction of the peaceful demonstrations a couple of blocks away."

    --------

    Shameless and stupid lies! The author calls the "peaceful protest" throwing stones and Molotov cocktails at police officers? On u-tube and other resources full of videos, as the angry crowd in Kiev beat police officers as burning alive their comrades poured a mixture of fire extinguishers! And all this was long before February 18.

    Some more concrete and detailed information about the political situation in Donetsk republic

    roman-n.livejournal.com

    If military necessity of Strelkov withdrawal from Slavyansk was already discussed in details, it's time to point out political component of this maneuver by Strelkov.

    After the turn of the foreign policy of the Russian Federation in Ukraine in April 2014, almost all like of Russian foreign policy toward Donbass began to close on Surkov and even Volodin was de facto barred from dealing with the issue. After it became clear that sending Russian troops is either delayed or taken off the agenda, the question arose what to do with what is happening in the Donbass. For internal political reasons open betrayal of DPR and LPR was fraught with internal shocks (the risks that are probably far greater than some think), the authorities had chosen an intermediate option, when amid the retreat of official Russian diplomacy, Moscow continued tacit support of the rebel republics.

    The cause that emerges was directed toward the formation of Novorossia, which according to the plans was to head Tsarev, who while in Moscow he began to receive funding (together with several other persons, which were to replace him in case of failure) and to who supposedly the so-called "people governors" of Novorossia in the amount of 7 to 9 people should report, being mostly virtual figures. The first attempt to impose this Tsarev based scheme on Donbass failed - Tsarev did proclaimed the new Russia, but a number of local politicians who head the resistance to junta like Bolotov and Boroday said that Tsarev may there to declare whatever he wants, but the real decisions are taken by other people. After that acquisition of local leaders in the narrow vision quickly followed. After the second attempt Tsarev did managed to occupy top position in newly formed republic as Moscow closed on him the financing channels and humanitarian assistance. So the local leaders were forced to swallow their pride and ambitions.

    When junta, covered by the USA open operation against Donbass which began to develop in an adverse direction, the political course was taken on creation on the territory of the DPR (Donetsk People Republic) and LPR (Luhask People Republic) some kind of analogue of Transnistria on the basis of the 2 republics with a population of 7 million (the idea of Novorossia which presuppose addition of several southern provinces at this point became just a propaganda phantom and no other provinces were in the stage of military confrontation with junta.

    There were attempts to negotiate autonomy for the Novorossia with the US and Kiev, but those attempt were rejected. At this point the course changed on achieving some kind of agreement with Akhmetov and his men who were offered preservation of their power and property, in exchange of support of the rebellion and were guaranteed some positions in the government structures of the new state. All these dances around the nationalization of property Akhmetov, when Pushilin first threatened to nationalize, and then Boroday disavow him and said that we are not Communists and are not going to take it away. And then new threats - some selected properties sill will be nationalized, even if not all - is primarily external echoes ongoing negotiation with Akhmetov and his people. Delivery Mariupol to junta, which has had the fingerprint of Akhmetov all over, who blocking all the work in preparing the defense of the city, and essentially tried to eliminate militants who are not controlled by him, so that they did not start building DPR in full force is pretty telling episode. The story of Hodakovskiy that while already was a head of the "Vostok" detachment of DPR continued to take money from Akhmetov and put his people into meat grinder was also part of those behind-the-scenes trading of horses with Akhmetov. and the same attempt of Akhmetov to eliminate with the help of junta those militants who seriously intended to build DPR.

    The key problem of DPR actually was that Akhmetov still has a great influence on both the leadership of the DPR and the Donetsk elite. Moscow tried to take this situation takes into account and attempted to negotiated with him too (by Surkov and a number of responsible officials) to agree. But the junta and the U.S. of course aware of these movements and Akhmetov, whose financial assets are in the West, feel that they can squeeze his ball any moment they wish. Therefore, these trading of horses did not get closer, but actually postponed the start of building of DPR and LPR, although the curators of this Ukrainian question seriously believed that that their plan with Akhmetov will eventually come to logical conclusion.

    These trading of horses with Akhmetov, who has contacts both with Moscow and Kiev led to a very strange situation, when Donetsk in a state of war with junta, in fact, was not subjected to artillery shelling and air strikes (in contrast to Lugansk), which hints at the existence of certain arrangements with the junta, about preservation of Donetsk and keeping it away from combat operations, which were concentrated by junta on Slavyansk and the territory of LPR. Contacts of course were conducted via representatives of Akhmetov, are can open both in Kiev and Donetsk any doors.

    Due to this for three month all work on creation of people republic was sabotaged in Donetsk. there is no uniform military command, the fact of presence of authorities subordinate to the Kiev junta was ignored Militia detachments were dispersed, poorly organized and not able to solve any problems of offensive nature. The fact that during May and June there were no any attacks on the outer ring of encirclement of Slavyansk pretty well indicates the unwillingness of a number of individuals to wage war with junta.

    In the Donetsk itself flourished looting, banditry, murder, protection racket of businesses. Pushilin assistant was killed, they also tried to kill Gubarev. Militia for more than a month stand still near an encircled Donetsk airfield, there were no serious effort to capture tank warehouse in Artemovsk, although nothing prevents to use the existing tanks and 2-3 company of militias and capture this important military base. This operation was also sabotaged from Donetsk.

    By the end of the ceasefire, the situation in Donetsk was close to complete betrayal of DPR, the city elite actually decided to shied away from war, and local politicians have tried to bargain with Moscow and Kiev, using DPR as a bargaining chip, And the residents of DPR became essentially the hostages of this bargaining. Strelkov was expected heroically die defending Slavyansk far from this political horse trading.

    But in July it became clear that the "truce" is used by junta for concentrating forces in Donbas, Donetsk elite went into panic. That greatly strengthened the party of defeatists, which did not for a minute stopped negotiations with representatives of the Kremlin, but in fact started via representatives of Akhmedov to prepare the city to surrender. they did not want the continuation of the war and Strelkov was just redundant for their plans - so they did nothing to prevent closing of all Slavyansk supply lines by junta

    At the end the only supply root was available via Nikolaevka - nobody thought to punch for him sustainable supply corridor. Troops from Russia were not expected (but it was partially with the view on their arrival that Slavyansk was defended from junta mercenaries as an important communication hub. By the evening of July 2 Strelkov realized that there will be no deblocking strike on junta. , although judging by his appearances, the understanding that he became a sacrificial lamp come to him somewhat earlier. Plus he got direct information that in Donetsk there is a growing danger of complete betrayal.

    When Strelkov managed to escape encirclement and retreat to Donetsk with most of his fighters and equipment, it caused at first slight shock, and then open panic. Strelkov organized the garrisons of the cities that he left for final stand in Donetsk and wanted to convert it a fortified area so that he can conduct active defense of this region with key points in Donetsk itself and Horlivka. By this maneuver he ruined all the plans concerning the peaceful surrender of Donetsk to junta.

    That explains sudden statement of Akhmetov "not to bomb Donetsk" quickly followed by promises of junta "We will not bomb Donetsk" and hysteria in the Internet "Strelkov brought the war in Donetsk". Of course, he did brought the war in Donetsk, because there was a strong desire by junta to take the Donetsk without war and bury DPR. That means that Strelkov mixed up all the cards to the party of defeatists and destroyed combinations that Surkov attempted via talks with Akhmetov, in which Strelkov didn't have any place.

    He was not taken into account in those combinations for two reasons:

    1. Strelkov represents so called "the party of war", which does not want peace with the junta and wants the war to be victorious and end with the surrender of junta in Kiev. He has no place in any backstage talks with the junta. For the same reason has no place in any backstage talks with Akhmetov . Any serious battles in the Donetsk industrial region will obviously result in numerous destruction of numerous properties which belong to Akhmetov. This is far from what he expected, when he flirted with DPR leadership and tried to install into leadership his peoples.

    2. Strelkov because of his monarchist beliefs maintains contacts with right-wing, nationalist and even semi-fascists type Like Prosvirnin, accepting help from anyone who will give, without much discrimination on the principle - I will take from anybody for this noble purpose. Surkov and Company does not want to have right-wing Novorossia, with nationalistic flavor that some leaders are trying to give the image of Strelkov, who openly supports Putin and has not impose any projects of the new state from himself. Even though he is accused of harboring the intention to capture Rostov and to March on Moscow, which is the complete and obvious nonsense.

    to people like Surkov people like Akhmetov, Medvedchuk, Tsarev are much closer as in case of creation of "Donetsk Transnistria" he knows that he can delegated to them the local authorities. The people's like the Mosgovoy or Gubarev are unlikely to be admitted to any key decisions - such people as Surkov are rather afraid of those people and are accustomed to solve all "problems" in a narrow circle of "friends" among local elite.

    However, the Russian authorities themselves are beginning to be conserved of the perspective of appearance of "Patriotic Maidan" in Moscow, which in reality would be a direct result of the current Surkov machinations to create a "new Transnistria" through negotiations with Akhmetov. People who were yesterday consolidated into Pro-Putin majority, would not accept this changed political line and start first to ask questions, and then to look for the guilty ones, and sooner or later hit the Kremlin. That is, we must understand that Surkov policy is destroying the Pro-Putin majority, and create the threat of the "Patriotic Maidan", which is merely a potential consequence of "Donetsk combinations" by Surkov himself. And here, by the way is nothing new - it is worth recalling that similar "clever" combinations of Surkov in domestic policy has once already led to mass unrest in Moscow before the elections of 4 December 2011, after which he was kicked out of his position of curator of internal policy, and was replaced by Volodin he less than a year were cut short Surkov blunders, bringing the percentage of people supporting Putin from official 36% in January 2012 to 86% in April 2014.

    Now it seems history repeats itself - Surkov starts to get too far and endanger not only DPR, but Putin himself, splitting the post-Crimean" Pro-Putin majority, throwing out the part of the patriots in the opposition and designing paper tiger "Patriotic Maidan" from yesterday's Putin's fans. Which will be of course taken advantage by the Americans, if they decide to be seriously engaged in the decision of the question on the organization of this Moscow "Maidan". The fact is that under the cries about "the threat of Patriotic Maidan", uber-patriots prepare the soil for it splitting post-Crimean Pro-Putin majority. This is of course quite obviously some circles in Moscow, so Strelkov was probably warned about the situation developing in Donetsk. We should not try to present his of some kind of don Quixote. That's why when suspicions of Strelkov were supplemented by information Donetsk developments, was organized a rapid break out of encirclement into Donetsk. the maneuver that allows him to crush party of defeatists in Donetsk, which threatened the very existence of DPR with subsequent betrayal of interest of people of Donbass and as a potential consequence of the revolution in Russia in the style of "Russian revolt lite".

    Strelkov arrival to Donetsk already led to the fact that part of those who wanted to surrender DPR to junta and talks with Akhmetov began to scatter from Donetsk. For example former commander of the Vostok Khodakovsky who was on Akhmetov's salary (but nevertheless freely visiting Moscow) already relocated somewhere (rumored to be Mariupol). The Ukrainian authorities loyal to junta, who quietly existed in Donetsk before joining Strelkov, also began a rapid escape from the city. There was "cleaning" of not captured loyal to junta institutions and today Donetsk mayor Lukyanchenko suddenly left town for Kiev "for consultations". That means that Strelkov (with the possible help from certain circles in Moscow) just started to destroys the base of collusion between the junta and Akhmetov, as to surrender the city in which there are several thousand of armed militants who are ready to fight junta is not very realistic scenario. Strelkov group is one of the largest groups of armed men he himself has significant authority among the inhabitants of DPR and militias. For Surkov pro Akhmetov circles this authority must be immediately destroyed, as it begins to pose a real threat to the policy.

    That's why the propaganda campaign "Strelkov is the traitor" was launched in which different hypocrites try to sling mud on Strelkov, trying to rescue collapsing combination Surkov with Akhmetov & Co. In this respect, of course we should not concentrate on the Kurginyan and Bagirov, both are just talking heads. They simply brought to the masses a certain message associated with chagrin that the Strelkov had survived and does not allow for quiet political "combinations" in Donetsk.

    The hysterical nature of the company, which began with the well know speech by Kurginyan (who was just a patsy chosen for the campaign, and was not the organizer of it) is well demonstrated. It looks like it was prepared in a hurry, so it turned out to be far from convincing, and Kurginyan finally became really discarded political junk -- his accusations were primitive to hold water against a person who for three long months successfully defended Slavyansk against superior junta forces and provided the necessary time on the creation of a Donetsk People Republic which was not really created due the sabotage of those who are now on a run from Donetsk and those who now feel uncomfortable to sit in their chairs in the light of the arrival of the Strelkov troops. In this regard Kurginyan lies that "in Donetsk's everything was all right" is pretty telling as in realty Donetsk was on the verge of betrayal and surrender to junta.

    If they fail to kill the reputation of Strelkov, then of course it will try to eliminate him physically as they already tried to kill Bolotov and today tried to kill mosgovoy, who also represents the "party of war". These people prevent collusion with junta and surrender and therefore, must be either compromised or destroyed. In this regard, those characters who are now trying to vilify Strelkov actually play into the hands of the junta and the party of defeatists who prepare the surrender of Donetsk and backroom conspiracy deal with Akhmetov. The question whether they are motivated by money or ideological beliefs, is purely rhetorical. Network fools, who amplified this propaganda wave, are just consumables of big policy, which is carried out behind the backs of those militias who are fighting in the trenches, fighting heroically against the superior forces of the junta.

    We should not idealize Strelkov, and he is probably far from great statesman. Also his ideological views are frankly pretty specific, but the point is that by his heroic defense of Slavyansk and by the efforts of Russian propaganda, he is from unknown army battles reconstruction specialist was now converted into a serious political figure, behind which there are quite q number determined people with guns. So now he became a political figure to reckon with, and many fear him and will of course try to destroy him -- both Ukrainian fascists and Russian fifth column.

    Here we must understand that the Strelkov is one of people on which real, not virtual DPR is based upon. And any attack on people type Strelkov, Gubarev or Mosgovoy is primarily an attack on the real DPR where there is no place Akhmetov, Hodakovskiy or Medvedchuk. T


    Therefore, this situation around Strelkov very revealing in terms of revealing hidden enemies of the real independence of DPR. So write down the names and nicknames of these characters, who willingly or unknowingly act as gravediggers for DPR. We should know the names of our enemies in person.

    [Jul 09, 2014] Europe's Looming Gas Crisis The Winners and Losers by Jason Ditz

    July 8, 2014 | fool.com
    On June 16, without a lot of fanfare, Russian natural gas giant OAO Gazprom (NASDAQOTH: OGZPY ) cut off supplies to Ukraine's state energy company Naftogaz. The move was in response to failed talks on Naftogaz paying a fairly substantial debt for previous shipments, and refusing Gazprom's plan to move to a prepayment system.

    The fears about siphoning leading to a cut in Gazprom exports to Europe have so far been unfounded, with flows remaining normal and Ukraine using a substantial underground reserve of previous shipments. The EU gas crisis did not come to pass, at least not yet.

    Why the EU isn't out of the woods yet

    Though Ukraine's stored reserves amount to some 14.2 billion cubic meters, the country's massive dependency on foreign (i.e., Russian) supplied gas means they'll burn through that, at present usage, sometime in late autumn. Naftogaz officials are pushing for a state of emergency and forced 20% consumption cuts, which they say could allow them to get through the winter, albeit just barely, and only if it's not a particularly cold winter.

    Whether it comes late this year or in early spring of 2015, one thing is clear: Unless Naftogaz resolves the standoff with Gazprom, something they insist they won't do, Ukraine will run out of gas in a matter of months. When that happens, siphoning is inevitable, and supplies to the rest of Europe will be in jeopardy.

    Supply cuts from Russia will mean big price increases in Europe, as the few alternative sources of natural gas become all the more sought after. Major EU energy importers, like Germany's E.ON (NASDAQOTH: EONGY ) , are going to be paying out the nose for gas, if they can get it at all. Existing deals between E.ON and Gazprom are likely to be impossible to continue until the Ukraine situation is resolved.

    Where will that gas come from?

    The loss of Russian gas will be a much bigger problem for European customers than it will for Gazprom, which has been picking up its exports to China and India. It's far from ideal for Gazprom to have a cutoff to a whole continent, but they should easily weather that storm.

    Europe, by contrast, is going to have to take a long, hard look at importing more liquified natural gas, which could be good news for companies like BG Group plc (NASDAQOTH: BRGYY ) , whose liquifaction plant in Egypt could benefit.

    The other big natural gas producer in Europe is Norway's Statoil (NYSE: STO ) , which could greatly benefit from a dramatic increase in prices across the region. The company's profits are already flourishing on tight supply in Brent crude, and the natural gas crisis could add even more to their already healthy bottom line.

    [Jul 09, 2014] This is only a start of desperate times for the residents of Ukraine

    odnarodyna.com.ua

    On macroeconomic level, it is clear that Ukraine can avoid. the default. This year it will have to pay foreign debts and loans of more than $69 billion. Of them 14.5 billion are loads to the banks, 46.6 billion - loans to the industrial enterprises, 1 billion load to the national Bank of Ukraine, and 4.1 billion must pay the state itself in its external debts. The total volume of payments for servicing the external debt exceeds 40% of GDP.

    In early April gold and foreign currency reserves of the country barely reach $15 billion. The Ukrainian government keeps repeating that for the salvation of the state's economy they urgently, within two to three months, need credits for 30 billion dollars. But nobody will give them to Ukraine. The first tranche of the IMF loan in the amount of about 3 billion were targeted for repayment of the debt to "Gazprom", but for the intended purpose was used only partially. Another 1 billion has provided US as a guarantee for government bonds. However, on June 24, the Ukrainian government had to pay it to Russian Vneshtorgbank after demand to repayment. Today Russia is going to demand its gas debt through international arbitration. the same path have chosen China, to which Ukraine has not deliver wheat worth billions of euros.

    ... ... ...

    In fact, Ukraine is the country-bankrupt. It follows from the analysis of Reuters. According to the Agency, the Ukrainian authorities are negotiating with its creditors, the holders of state bonds of Ukraine, on debt restructuring, as she is not able to repay them.

    In order to repay the numerous loans and find the money for expensive military operations to destroy the civilian population of Donbass, the Ukrainian authorities are tightening the screws to the common people. And not only by raising taxes, announced Arseniy Yatsenyuk. Already officially announced the freezing of the minimum wage and pensions, elimination of allowances to workers of budgetary sphere and civil servants. Already discontinued the payment of bonuses to the staff of government institutions, which were reaching 40% of the salary. But first of all liquidated local co-pay to the lowest paid workers in the regions put them low poverty level. Planned monthly salary of librarians, for example, will be a little over 1000 UAH. (83 dollars a month), doctors - 1200 UAH. (100$ a month), state municipal employees 1500 UAH. (125 USD a month). Even according to state statistics, the average monthly salary in the near future will fall from 3575 to 3379 UAH. The level of unemployment, according to the Minister, will rise from 7.1% to 8.2%.

    Although the world Bank forecast inflation in Ukraine in 2014 at the level of 15%, and in 2015 - at the level of 10.5%, the reality is much more severe. Due to the depreciation of the hryvnia and the crisis in agriculture prices for some products from February has risen by more than two times, medicines - by 60-70%, which was officially recognized by the Minister of Finance Alexander Shlapak. In fact, the number of import of medicinal products of the first necessity has risen in price in 2-3 times. Remind: this happened in conditions when wages and pensions are frozen. That is why for people of Ukraine, priority is not buying of new cars, not relaxing in resorts, where the owners of hotels and lodges now are able to earn enough to sustain this institutions, to say nothing about profit due to the catastrophic drop in the number of tourists.

    But the hardest times for the residents of Ukraine only begin. From July 1, the price on the natural gas for the population was raised 55-70%, hot water and heating by 40%, prices for electricity - by 10-40% depending on consumption volumes, prices for centralized water supply and drainage - 78-96%. The average cost of communal services will reach 1100 UAH per month -- above salary of several categories of workers.

    Largest rises hit Kiev, for which the hot water will rise in price almost on 70%, and district heating - almost 60%. And this is only the first stage of the growth of prices for utility services, which will continue to gradually rise until 2017. Today part of the population of the Ukrainian capital is not able to pay the bills. From 23 June Kyivenergo started to switch off 754 houses from the hot water due to the debt of communal enterprises which serve them which from the beginning of the year exceeded 838 million. Previously we reported about disabling street lighting in five districts of Kiev.

    [Jul 08, 2014] Taking Slavyansk is not equal to victory by Alexander Gavrilov

    112.ua

    There are many people who rejoices about "taking" Slavyansk and considered it to be a victory. I, personally, don't think that this is a victory for Kiev forces.

    Judge for yourself:

    1. Strelkov and his militants with all ammunition and armored vehicles almost unhindered and practically without losses left the city. When the Ukrainian army was" Slavyansk, it entered the empty city.
    2. Streltsov now is in Donetsk. If he could turn a small Slavyansk into a fortress, which for many months failed to take all the Ukrainian army, what he can do in and to what king of fortress he can covery a huge Donetsk?
    3. Near Donetsk there is no hills lile Korochun, i.e. the dominant heights from which you can remotely shell the city. To surround and lock huge Donetsk will be much more difficult task than a small Slavyansk. Given that Slavyansk was never fully surronded (Strelkov regularly received military and humanitarian aid, weapons and ammunition), it is obvious that to block a huge Donetsk is more difficult for this task the ATO forces lack the resources even more so, then in Slavyansk.
    4. The size of Strelkov's army increased significantly. Now he is connected with all local forces (the battalion "East", "the Orthodox army" and the like), has at its disposal all local armored vehicles and other weapons. In addition, he will easily replenish his detachments with local volunteers eager to fight under "the legendary Strelkov".
    5. All the above forces now will no longer operated as separate detachments, but will be centrally controlled directly by Strelkov. He announced the creation of a military Council, which will present all field commanders, for coordination
    6. Strelkov now got the environment, in which he has full operational freedom. That is, he can move freely in the region. If we consider the fact, that despite being surrounded he could pursue successful counter-attacks as well as sabotage, now his room for maneuvers with his forces is increased dramatically.
    7. To remove and redeploy tied to the Slavyansk artillery and ammunition, which have been accumulated more than one month, take a lot of time and a lot of resources. Tractors, fuel, etc.
    8. Considering all the above factors the "anti-terrorist operation"(ATO) will easly splash into authumn.

    And time is not on Ukrainian side. By September it is projected that Ukraine will experience severe economic problems and, as a result of unrest in other potentially dangerous regions (and not only them) are more then probable. It was not accidental that Parubiy announced in his forecast the resumption of "Russian spring" in Ukraine by September. ATO eats out a huge amount of money every day, which Ukraine simply does not have. That mean that continuation of ATO is a death sentence for economical and quite possible (by extension) to the current government in Kiev.

    We can consider the operation to be a "victory: if forces of ATO would achieve what is called "annihilation of the terrorists". But the "terrorists" left unharmed. And when you consider that the Ukrainian army itself is not eager to enter into direct contact with the enemy, and prefers remote shelling of their positions it might be another a long and tedious siege, which could take much longer time then seige of Slavyansk. In addition, there is Lugansk, which successfully holds the defense. But to split the ATO forces for effective siege and assault of two large cities is just too much for the current army.

    Apparently, this situation will inevitably lead to the resumption of the ceasefire and negotiations.

    The editorial staff may not agree with the opinion of the author.

    [Jul 08, 2014] Ukraine Rebels Are Retreating for Last Stand By

    Compare with Taking Slavyansk is not equal to victory above
    JULY 7, 2014 | NYTimes.com

    Russia's president, Vladimir V. Putin, who warned last week that he would not stand by while the safety of Russians was endangered, did not comment on the deteriorating situation. That was left to the foreign minister, Sergey V. Lavrov, who complained about damage to civilian areas but mentioned nothing about possible military action. The Kremlin appears to have taken that option off the table, in favor of a negotiated settlement that might install close allies of Russia as the governors of Donetsk and Luhansk.

    "A quick end to the bloodshed is in our common interest," Mr. Lavrov said at a news conference in Sofia, Bulgaria. "We believe that there can be no excuses, pretexts for postponing the immediate end of the shooting, as a result of which more peaceful civilians suffer, the outflow of refugees multiplies and civilian infrastructure is destroyed."

    In an apparent bid to slow the oncoming troops, the pro-Russian insurgents blew up two bridges on the road to Donetsk from Slovyansk and Kramatorsk, two long-occupied provincial cities where rebels were ousted over the weekend after a fierce bombardment.

    At the same time, Ukrainian officials said their troops were setting up blockades to isolate separatists in the cities. "The points of access to these cities are being blocked so that militants are not delivered weapons or manpower or other resources," Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for Ukraine's National Security and Defense Council, said at a briefing in Kiev.

    Although the military has made substantial gains in recent days, analysts warned that battles in the big cities could represent an entirely different and awful chapter, involving dangerous urban warfare and potentially high numbers of civilian casualties. Rebel forces have appeared to make a strategic calculation to abandon other positions and fall back into the urban centers, said Oleksiy Melnyk, a security analyst at the Razumkov Center, a policy research institute in Kiev.

    "It's in their advantage to get into the big cities, because the options of the government forces will be even more limited," Mr. Melnyk said. "They can't use artillery, aircraft."

    Donetsk is a city of one million, Luhansk of more than 400,000, although large numbers of civilians have been fleeing, terrified of being caught in the hostilities.

    Late Sunday, Rinat Akhmetov, Ukraine's richest man, issued a plea that his home city be spared destruction. "Donetsk must not be bombed," Mr. Akhmetov said. "Cities, towns and infrastructure must not be destroyed."

    Such destruction, however, was already underway. In addition to the road bridges, in the villages of Zakitne and Seleznevka, rebels destroyed a railroad bridge in the village of Novobakhmutivka, leaving a freight train dangling. In all, seven bridges were destroyed, Ukrainian officials said.

    Calling the situation in eastern Ukraine worse than in Belgrade ahead of the civil war that broke apart Yugoslavia, Mr. Lavrov urged the resumption of peace talks with the inclusion of representatives of the militants from the east.

    Echoing Mr. Lavrov, the German government on Monday issued an urgent plea, calling for a rapid, unconditional and mutual cessation of hostilities, and said it was urgent to organize talks that included the separatists. However, in a television interview, the deputy chief of staff of Mr. Poroshenko's administration, Valeriy Chaly, said Ukraine would follow its own course.

    "How to solve the situation in the country - it is our sovereign right," Mr. Chaly said.

    ... ... ....

    Sveta Zinovyeva, 17, spent the end of her school year holed up in a basement with her family. She said she had read romance novels to distract from the "horrible fear."

    "We can't forget this," she said. "What did we do to them? What did we do?"

    Selected Comments

    Note: Looks like NYT became real neocon nest. The selection below includes only comments judged "reasonable". As such this is far from representative sample as most NYT commenters look iether like a typical neocons or as people brainwashed far beyond the level of typical Soviet level of brainwashing under Brezhnev. Zero ability to analyses available YouTube material, zero knowledge of history of the region, zero knowledge of EuroMaidan history and reason of start of civil war, "USA, USA !" mentality (aka American exceptionalism) are pretty much dominant (along with some poster from Western Ukrainian Diaspora). Really authoritarian level of dogmatism (those who are with us are against us" mentality). Reading them makes a sad impression that the USA as a society might well be past the point of recovery from neocon thinking, and as such is doomed. And that people posting at Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity live in a different country.

    j. von hettlingen, is a trusted commenter switzerland 5 hours ago

    There must be seasoned strategists among the separatists. They retreated to Donetsk and Luhansk and burned seven bridges in order to keep government forces from reaching the cities by road. Air strikes are too risky in urban areas.

    The question is how much support the separatists enjoy among the population and how long can they hold out, if the cities are under siege?

    Valeriy Chaly, Poroshenko's deputy chief of staff insisted "Ukraine would follow its own course". What is it?

    dubious, new york 6 hours ago

    While the US led EU sanctions Russia. Guess McCain, Graham and the rest of the Neo-Cons leading the war bellicose US foreign policies are very, very happy now. My question would be how long will the rest of the world be held hostage by the US blackmail control of the world financial apparatus.

    Uziel, Florianopolis - SC 6 hours ago

    Russians are a tough bunch. During the battle for Stalingrad a German officer --- unable to comply with superior's order to take over the city -- accused the Russian soldiers of fighting like 'gangsters.'

    The so called Russian 'separatist rebels' prepare for a last stand at Donetsk and Luhansk where they, certainly, will be defeated/killed by vastly superior forces. They will be considered heroes/martyrs by their compatriots, sort of a Russian Alamo.

    Regardless of the conflict outcome, Kiev will be creating a powerful and dangerous enemy. Defeating separatist Russian national rebels will be a classical pyrrhic victory. It is not the end but the beginning of a new Russia-Ukraine era of living dangerously.

    Dr. L. Harrison, PhD, Albany NY 2 hours ago

    Uziel -- I think you are probably citing the diary of Wilhelm Hoffmann (German 6th Army, 94th division), as recounted in "Victory at Stalingrad: The Battle That Changed History" by Geoffrey Roberts; the quotes appear at the end of chapter 4.

    Just who were the "gangsters" at Stalingrad is something the Russians would be happy to dispute -- though that's a side issue here.

    Donetsk and Luhansk will not be defended as was Stalingrad: the strategic circumstances are not there, nor the resources, nor the will.

    The question of Russian separatism in eastern Ukraine will remain -- but the facts of the matter are that the separatists have indeed been "sold out by their allies in Moscow."

    I suggest that the Bay of Pigs debacle is a better analogy here than Stalingrad.

    Taurean, Queens, NY 7 hours ago

    Initially, the "anti-terrorist" campaign was limited primarily, though not only, to rebel checkpoints on the outskirts of cities. Since May, however, Kiev has repeatedly carried out artillery and air attacks on city centers that have struck residential buildings, shopping malls, parks, schools, kindergartens and hospitals, particularly in Slovyansk and Luhansk. More and more urban areas, neighboring towns and even villages now look and sound like war zones, with telltale rubble, destroyed and pockmarked buildings, mangled vehicles, the dead and wounded in streets, wailing mourners and crying children.

    Conflicting information from Kiev, local resistance leaders and Moscow make it impossible to estimate the number of dead and wounded noncombatants-certainly hundreds. The number continues to grow due also to Kiev's blockade of cities where essential medicines, food, water, fuel and electricity are scarce, and where wages and pensions are often no longer being paid. The result is an emerging humanitarian catastrophe.

    Guy Thompto, Cedarburg, WI 5 hours ago

    That's what happens in a civil war - people die. In the battle for Vicksburg, union forces surrounded the city and literally starved the population into submission. The lesson: don't start a war unless you are wiling to pay the ultimate price.

    Taurean, Queens, NY 4 hours ago

    The "war" was started by the U.S.-backed and paid-for fascistic front "government" installed to reduce Ukraine to the same impoverished status as other IMF-indebted nations, while simultaneously opening a deliberately provocative front vis-a-vis Russia.

    It's clearly a chess game, with Russia losing, either by taking the bait of countering NATO on its doorstep militarily (annexing Crimea, formerly part of Russia) and suffering severe economic sanctions, or by allowing the West to incorporate Ukraine economically into the EU, and militarily into NATO, increasing the American temptation to launch a preemptive nuclear strike.

    Vasily, Tallinn 8 hours ago

    Once again I write specially for NYT readers.

    USA with its irresponsible foreign policy opened another Pandora's box.

    There is instability in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Egypt, Libya. Is this not enough?

    Using of heavy artillery, tanks, jet systems multiple rocket launchers, aircraft and bombs in Europe, now in the XX1-st century - is nonsense. Not need to be very smart to understand the stupidity of the USA government's adventures.

    How are you going to pay off and soothe the conflict? If these warring people in the East of Ukraine is not going to stop. Hate each other and continue to kill each other.
    Slavyansk and Lughansk cities are almost destroyed. More than one hundred thousand refugees now in Russia.

    Stupid USA policy and President Obama has led to this situation. No one to blame for this, but only yourself. And do not blame Russia for that situation.

    Hypocrites ....

    WimR, Netherlands 8 hours ago

    The article suggests that fighting in Donetsk will be different because it is an urban setting and the Ukrainian army can't use artillery and aircraft. But Slavyansk is a city with over 100,000 inhabitants too and the Ukrainian army hasn't shown any reluctance to use its artillery on it, along with cutting water and electricity and even food supplies.

    I don't see any reason to assume that the Ukrainian army will not use the same terror tactics to subdue Donetsk and Lugansk.

    Roger Binion, Moscow 5 hours ago

    And what exactly should the Ukrainian military do? Nothing? Should they allow these Russian led separatists and Russian mercenaries free reign?

    The Ukrainian military has done an excellent job of limiting civilian casualties. It is the rebels who are putting civilians in harm's way.

    WimR, Netherlands 2 hours ago

    "The Ukrainian military has done an excellent job of limiting civilian casualties."

    By bombing civilian areas? By refusing to negotiate and insisting on an armed solution? It is not their merit that the rebels chose to withdraw instead of fighting street-by-street.

    It is estimated that half the city has fled. Casualty figures among civilians are unknown but must be at least dozens. Yet the Ukrainian army keeps increasing its use of heavy artillery against cities.

    By claiming that all the civil casualties of the Ukrainian army are the fault of the rebels you basically give the army a permit to commit any warcrime in the book without punishment. Unfortunately it looks like that is the attitude of the US government too.

    Andrew, San Francisco, CA 8 hours ago

    The big change is that the Ukrainian army has finally realized they're not shooting at fellow Ukrainians...they're shooting at Russisn agents and mercenaries, and traitors.

    All that was needed was leadership, experience and courage.

    May the separatists' final stand be brutally brief, and may Russians unhappy with Putin's abysmal leadership borrow some courage from the Ukrainians of the Maidan!

    WimR, Netherlands 4 hours ago

    Nonsense. People from Russia form a negligible section of the rebels, although they do have some important positions among them. The great majority of the fighters are local people.

    Air Marshal of Bloviana, Over the Fruited Plain 12 hours ago

    If the APC was a diversion, then it worked and could be a prelude for things to come. Options in a fluid battlefront are significantly reduced when assets moving by rail are denied ingress and egress. I would not want to be inside the line which connect those bridges.

    [Jul 07, 2014] Fear, not ambition, is what fuels Moscow in Ukraine by Mary Dejevsky

    Jul 06, 2014 | The Guardian

    But there could be another explanation for Russia's non-intervention in eastern Ukraine, which is that the widely accepted view of Putin's aggressive intentions was actually wrong. This other narrative fits the facts of the past five months just as well as Putin's presumed desire to act on his post-Soviet nostalgia.

    As recently as September 2013, Putin was insisting that he had no problem with Ukraine's status as an independent, sovereign country, or even with its eventual membership of the EU. Then in February, Russia appeared to accept the agreement mediated by EU foreign ministers in Kiev, according to which the power of Ukraine's then president, Viktor Yanukovych, would be curtailed and elections brought forward.

    That deal, however, broke down – for reasons hotly disputed by all sides. The western consensus is that Putin seized his chance and grabbed Crimea as the start of a lunge for all Ukraine, and even Transnistria and the Baltic states, too. But there is another possible explanation: that the combination of Yanukovych's sudden flight, the prospect of chaos spreading across Ukraine, and fears that the west could exploit the situation to fast-track Ukraine into the western bloc caused a degree of panic in Moscow that dictated what happened next.

    Fear is a far stronger motivator for action than nostalgia. And Moscow's greatest fear at that point would have been the loss of its naval base and single warm-water port in Crimea. In the disorder that followed Yanukovych's overthrow, the Ukrainian parliament had shocked Russian-speakers by trying to downgrade the status of their language. Why should the cancellation of Russia's 25-year lease on Sevastopol not be next?

    Shortly after Russia's annexation of Crimea, President Obama said that it reflected weakness and not strength. That was soon forgotten in the flurry of assertions that Russia had readied 80,000 troops to invade eastern Ukraine, some of them transferred from Crimea. But if weakness and fear, rather than strength and expansionism, lay behind Putin's actions, then the prime purpose of those troops was not offensive, but defensive. The intention, then, was not to seize a chunk of Ukraine or even – as a more sophisticated argument suggests – to make it ungovernable, but to bolster Russia's own security and prevent lawlessness crossing the border.

    Russia's prickly responses are often explained by a centuries-old fear of encirclement. Through the cold war and since, that fear has been projected on to Nato – still seen in Moscow – however unrealistic it may seem to its cash-strapped members – as mighty, malevolent and terrifyingly efficient. If fear, rather than opportunism or strength, drove Putin's grab for Crimea, no amount of sanctions or belligerent talk from the west will improve things. They risk making Russia's insecurities – and its unpredictability – worse.

    Ernekid, 07 July 2014 7:27am

    Russia has a huge demographic problem, a rapidly ageing population, a creaking economy and crumbling infrastructure. Putin should have bigger worries than Ukraine.

    ID5933171, 07 July 2014 7:27am

    'If Vladimir Putin was so intent on re-establishing Moscow's influence over Ukraine, why has he not rushed to the aid of those fighting in Donetsk and Sloviansk?'

    Because Russia's running out of roubles.

    Zagradotryad ID5933171, 07 July 2014 8:22am

    Because he neither needs nor wants them.

    NikMitev ID5933171, 07 July 2014 8:26am

    Yes, Russia is not printing money on the back of the world as the US does. It doesn't have their debt either.
    If by any chance you want to get a grip on reality, have a look here:
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/04/how-long-can-putin-wait

    nobledonkey ID5933171, 07 July 2014 8:51am

    Because Russia's running out of roubles.

    Without a doubt the most ignorant comment anyone here will read all day.

    Russia stocks are up since sanctions began. Russia has almost no debt and has a ridiculously high number of exports.

    Your comment is the equivalent of saying that England was to win the World Cup in Brazil.

    Finite187 nobledonkey, 07 July 2014 10:15am

    That's odd. Russia hasn't been shut out of credit markets,

    No, but the rates of interest being charged have gone up around 2% since Crimea.


    it's rouble is higher than it has been all year

    Given that it fell of a cliff after the Crimea intervention (it hasn't been this low since the intervention in South Ossetia 6 years ago), this isn't a massive achievement.

    I agree with you that Russia does still have large currency reserves, but it can't continue this state of splendid isolation indefinitely, even with it's gas reserves. And turning off the taps to Ukraine, as much as it may prove a useful political weapon, will restrict income even further.

    nobledonkey Finite187 , 07 July 2014 10:27am

    Given that it fell of a cliff after the Crimea intervention (it hasn't been this low since the intervention in South Ossetia 6 years ago), this isn't a massive achievement.

    Reuters is reporting that the Rouble is the highest its been since mid-January, which pre-dates the Crimean intervention.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/24/russia-rouble-idUSL6N0P518D20140624

    The rouble strengthened by 1 percent against the dollar to 33.78. It had earlier reached its strongest since January, getting an extra boost from companies converting foreign currency into roubles before they make monthly tax payments.

    You continue:

    I agree with you that Russia does still have large currency reserves, but it can't continue this state of splendid isolation indefinitely, even with it's gas reserves. And turning off the taps to Ukraine, as much as it may prove a useful political weapon, will restrict income even further.

    I would not agree that Russia is engaging in 'splendid isolation'.

    Turning off the taps to Ukraine means just that: turning off the taps for Ukraine only. Hungary has already committed to not reverse-flowing gas to Ukraine, and it's highly doubtful that the Slovaks will also do the same since that would mean subsidizing Ukraine's gas needs where once Russia was doing it for them.

    Beyond the route through Ukraine, Austria just two weeks ago signed onto South Stream where it is looking to invest as well. The USA is applying coercive pressure onto the Bulgarians to get them to move away from the project.

    No need to mention the recent Gazprom and Rosneft deals with China.

    The question then becomes: how long is Europe willing to replace Russia as the subsidizer of Ukraine's economy by way of cheap gas just to placate the USA?

    Well, we know where German, French, Spanish, and Italian business stand. We know where the City of London stands. We know where the French Government stands in respect to the recent BNP fine and the destroyers for export.

    And how Merkel has to deal with not only her own business community, but also the exposed NSA double-agent in her midst.

    The Ukrainians won't pass the constraints demanded by the IMF in their own parliament, much less accept the targeted (LOL) 14% inflation per annum projected by the World Bank should they take the money. Last week, Kiev shut off warm water for much of the city.

    Something has to crack.

    seamuspadraig nobledonkey , 07 July 2014 12:48pm
    Good work, nobledonkey. But you forgot to mention France's refusal to cancel the sale of the Mistral ships to Russia. Meanwhile, Uncle Scam can't even get his own Chamber of Commerce to endorse sanctions--never mind Europe. So who's more "isolated" here? Moscow or Washington?
    seamuspadraig nobledonkey , 07 July 2014 4:41pm

    I did mention it when I stated 'destroyers for export' but I guess I should have phrased it better. Thanks for bringing it up.

    And so you did. My mistake.

    The Americans have been shooting themselves in the foot all over the place lately, with France and Germany being the most significant examples.

    Could not agree more. The Germans are especially upset.

    What will it take for the EU to chart a more independent course from the present one in which they serve as an American vassal?

    That's the most important question here, nobledonkey. What will it take? How much longer will Europeans tolerate seeing their own rulers treated like dogshit by the ignorant, arrogant war-pimps in Washington?

    [Jul 07, 2014] The Ukraine: bridges blown up along main roads to Donetsk

    Jul 07, 2014 | theguardian.com

    It was not clear who blew up the road and rail bridges, but their destruction would most benefit the rebels. Battles between Ukrainian forces and pro-Russia separatists have left more than 400 people dead and thousands homeless since they began in early April.

    In the village of Novobakhmutivka, where a railway line crosses over a road out of Donetsk, an 11-wagon cargo train was perched perilously on the collapsed bridge on Monday. The road leads toward Slavyansk, a former insurgent stronghold that was recaptured on Saturday by Ukrainian troops. Blowing up the bridge also damaged the railway line.

    Anatoly Krasov, who had been driving along the road, said he had seen an explosion before the bridge collapsed with the train on it. He said a group of men dressed in the camouflage uniforms often worn by the rebels then got into their cars and drove back toward Donetsk.

    Two other bridges on roads from Slavyansk to Donetsk were destroyed in the villages of Zakitne and Seleznevka, the Road Transport Agency of Donetsk Region said.

    There was no word from the Ukrainian president, Petro Poroshenko, who had promised to start negotiations on a new ceasefire last week. A contact group for the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe met in Kiev on Sunday to discuss the situation in Donetsk, but no representatives from the rebels attended and no breakthroughs were announced.

    On a trip to Bulgaria, the Russian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, pressed again for a ceasefire. He also condemned the OSCE for its "unrealistic demand" that the talks take place in the capital, Kiev, rather than in Donetsk.

    [Jul 07, 2014] Polkovnik (Colonel) Strelkov

    The Vineyard of the Saker

    Andrew said...

    Auslander:

    Thank you - simple truths need to be continuously repeated. What Col. Strelkov has done in Slavyansk for nearly 3 months will be something studied in War Colleges for centuries to come.

    I like to draw parallels in the Russian struggle for independence to American history, and would love to point to the following list:

    Newport, RI
    New York, NY
    Brooklyn, NY
    Philadelphia, PA
    Savannah, GA
    Charleston, SC
    Wilmington, NC
    Yorktown, VA

    This is a list of cities from which Gen. Washington and the Continental Army was chased out or retreated from during the War for Independence, handing them over to their British enemies. One can only imagine what might have been the result in an age of the internet and Twitter and YouTube if this string of losses were put together.

    And I think we all know how things ended when Washington lost his last city in Yorktown.

    There is another interesting parallel. Washington cut his teeth at war in his 20's in Pittsburgh in the French and Indian War. Col. Strelkov did so in his 20's in Transnistria. Gen. Washington assumed a real command in his mid-40's in the American revolt and turned a handful of rebel militai into an army. Col. Strelkov is doing likewise in his mid-40's in Novorossiya with the Russian uprising.

    May he be similarly victorious, and hopefully in as many months as Washington took years!

    olivegreen

    "Very good article and a truly excellent performance on the part of general Strelkov and his men."

    Strelkov is not a General - yet, anyway :) He is a retired Colonel.

    the pessimist, 08 July, 2014 00:09
    Some thoughts from afar after staring through a foggy window.

    There is a lot afoot at the moment. The militia is consolidating in Donetsk Lughansk and surrounds. They have a fighter aircraft (do they have a competent pilot and maintenance crew?), a grad MRL, fair number of tanks and other artillery, anti aircraft weapons, troops. They have occupied strategic rail link Popasnaya and I would guess are planning an offensive move of some kind as the junta forces regroup and reposition. Doubt they will just sit in Donetsk and wait. Strategic rail bridge blown up - not sure by which side - thinking militia to prevent movement of military equipment.

    Junta is continuing to move heavy weapons and troops to the region and Poroshenko has announced his approval for a military plan to liberate the rebellious region. No cease fire in the plans for either side. Militia wanted junta to come parley in Donetsk but they refused.

    Ukraine is trying to prevent air and sea access to Crimea (cannot prevent Russia but want to put roadblocks in front of any other nations that might wish to). Threatened to shoot down any Russian aircraft violating airspace near Azov Sea.

    NATO and Russia having war games in Black Sea. NATO added an Aegis class missile cruiser, unexpectedly it seems, to their exercises.

    Mr. Akhmetov seems distraught about potential damage to Donetsk should the junta attack and has appealed to Kiev not to bomb the city.

    Lavrov wants the EU (and the US) to back and insist Kiev begin a new ceasefire.

    My take on these things is that Poroshenko will not agree to any cease fire - he cannot or he will be driven from office by Maidan - and the 'success' in Slovyansk has made the nationalist forces thirst for a complete military defeat of the militia.

    The militia will not agree to a ceasefire that doesn't protect them fully from Kiev, so they will fight and try to defeat the junta forces if they can, as well as hold their ground.

    This situation is not what the outside powers want - any of them, Russia included, nor is it what Akhmetov wants. Events on the ground - probably from the time of the Odessa massacre or perhaps really from the annexation of Krim - have begun to have serious momentum on the ground that is not amenable to an imposed solution short of a decisive military defeat.

    No one should assume that nothing is going on in the rest of Ukraine either. While many would still prefer to keep their heads down I am sure many others are choosing sides and beginning to organize. Many eyes watching what is happening. While many in the conflict area have fled to Russia I am sure many others have fled the other direction - either because of family ties and just seeking safety or because of their political preference. The migrants and their experiences will affect the views of the areas they settle - as will the wounded returning from the front. Not to say this will favor one side or the other, just that it will contribute to the process of choosing sides.

    The situation has changed - it is no longer civil unrest, it is civil war.

    Should the militia continue to gain strength to the point that they cannot be defeated militarily this will pose a very large problem as 'Novorussia' probably cannot exist as a political entity without Russian support - overt political support - and I see Russia as very reluctant to provide such. They wanted federalized regional autonomy (an EU approved settlement) and this may no longer be possible to negotiate.

    Should the junta succeed in crushing the main resistance there will be continuing sabotage and low level conflict - an unstable repressive 'peace' that may flare up into open conflict again at any time - especially as IMF austerity begins to have real meaning for the population.

    The Saker, 08 July, 2014 01:03

    ltr said...
    oh my god!

    I have no words.....

    --

    Mineworker and self-defense forces fighter of self-proclaimed Lugansk People's Republic, rushed under tank with bunch of grenades saving his companions in arms.

    "There was a fight near Izvarino yesterday; our friends from Krasnodon town took part in the action. One of them was wounded in the leg and his friend Alexander Scryabin died a hero throwing himself with a bunch of grenades under the battle tank," fellow of the deceased said to reporters. He noted that "Alexander was 54, he worked at the mine Talovskaya as a construction man," cites Interfax.

    http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_07_08/LPR-self-defense-forces-fighter-brews-up-tank-at-expense-of-his-life-5763/

    Theodore Svedberg said...

    When the US first sent in large numbers of ground troops in 1964 the Vietcong were forced to retreat from large tracts of land (especially the productive farm land in Mekong delta) to more practical defensive positions in the jungles and mountains. Except for US army propagandists I do not recall any of the leftist supporters crying that the Vietcong were therefore defeated or betraying the peasants left behind. Most of those who followed that war closely, realized that that is the nature guerrilla war. Mao's defeat after the three campaigns that led to the Long March must have been traumatic to say the least, but they managed to extract over 100.000 men and their best commanders.

    So strategic retreats are not necessarily bad even if they might not feel so good at the time.

    Andrew said...

    The pessimist:

    Should the militia continue to gain strength to the point that they cannot be defeated militarily this will pose a very large problem as 'Novorussia' probably cannot exist as a political entity without Russian support - overt political support - and I see Russia as very reluctant to provide such. They wanted federalized regional autonomy (an EU approved settlement) and this may no longer be possible to negotiate.

    There is an obvious solution to this conundrum. The NAF must grow in strength until it can liberate Kiev. It can then create new federalized state in place of Ukraine, accepting whatever regions within it that it should chose and which would be willing, i.e. most likely not including Galicia.

    This would satisfy desired outcomes on all sides other than Right Sector and the Coup Government.

    Anonymous

    How many years will it take to drive these motherfuckers back to Lvov? And how many international borders will be crossed with the blood seeds of this conflict? This is way beyond Russia, the US, the EU, Putin, whatever.

    All I can say is thank you to Novorossia self-defense for standing up for what is right. You have changed my life for the better.

    (American)

    [Jul 07, 2014] Ukrainian president hails breakthrough as Slavyansk seized from separatists by Shaun Walker

    Shaun Walker is a despicable pressitute, so reader comments are much more interesting then the article. Still with 50:1 in manpower and 100:1 in military hardware Ukies army is probably able to kill most of anti-fascist and confederate forces ("pro-Russian separatists" as Guardian call them) before September. As Napoleon observed, God is always on the side with better artillery.
    The Guardian

    "My order is now in effect – tighten the ring around the terrorists," the president posted on Twitter after Slavyansk was regained. "Continue the operation to liberate Donetsk and Luhansk regions."

    There were signs that rebels from Slovyansk were falling back on the regional capital, Donetsk, to continue the resistance. Igor Girkin, the military commander of Slavyansk, told the Russian agency Life News that he had arrived in Donetsk.

    "We will continue the combat operations and will try not to make the same mistakes that we made in the past," said Girkin, a Russian also known by his nom de guerre, Igor Strelkov. Thousands turned out to rally behind the rebels in Donetsk on Sunday afternoon.

    Girkin has been one of the most intriguing characters of the uprising. A Russian citizen with apparent links to military intelligence, he was previously known for enjoying costumed military re-enactments, and has been an elusive figure since he emerged as the figurehead of the Slavyansk resistance, giving interviews to only a few trusted Russian correspondents and issuing decrees threatening to shoot people for desertion or looting.

    The separatist leader Pavel Gubarev read out a message from Girkin to the crowds in Donetsk, in which the commander compared the flight from Slavyansk to the decision by the Russian army to abandon Moscow in 1812. Without that, Girkin said, Russia would not have defeated Napoleon and marched on Paris, and for the same reason the fighters had left Slavyansk to regroup and eventually drive Kiev's armies from the east before marching on the capital itself.

    However, with Slavyansk back under Kiev's control, numerous casualties among the separatists and no sign that Russia has any appetite to become more officially involved in the conflict, it appears that the tide may have turned.

    Poroshenko faces a decision on whether to attempt a final and decisive victory over the separatist movement by taking on the fighters in Donetsk and Luhansk, major urban conurbations where civilian casualties would appear to be likely.

    Already, there is a huge amount of anger in the east over some of the methods used during the "anti-terrorist operation" to rid the east of fighters, much of which has relied on hastily assembled volunteer battalions.

    Tanya Lokshina, of Human Rights Watch, called on the Ukrainian authorities to mount a "thorough and impartial investigation" into apparent air strikes on villages near Luhansk that killed a number of civilians including a five-year-old boy, according to witnesses.

    Selected Comments

    Kal El, 06 July 2014 6:18pm

    It was known all along that the ceasefire was simply a chance for the Ukie forces to strengthen their positions around an already fully encircled town.

    No doubt any offensive by the army in Lugansk and Donetsk will not go reported in the West due to the significant amount of civilians who will be killed as well.

    Still, genocide is all in a days for a Pro-Western Ukrainian and spineless Western politicians who turn a blind eye as long as civilian casualties serve the EU's interest.

    Walrave -> Kal El, 06 July 2014 6:54pm

    The rebels are not fighting, they've been fleeing left right and center. Perhaps someone stopped paying them. As for genocide, if the "rebels" didn't want civilian casualties they shouldn't have moved to city centers, but stayed on the outskirts. It's hard to fight an enemy that uses the locals as a human shield and not cause collateral damage, it's hardly genocide though.

    RussianFriend -> Walrave, 06 July 2014 7:46pm

    These 'rebels' used civilians as a human shield only in the reports of the wretched Ukrainian TV and in the tall stories concocted by the Ukrainian Army phsychological warfare squads.

    RobertNeville, 06 July 2014 6:18pm

    The Prince of Dark Chocolate will fall once the people see through the mirage paradise of the EU and NATO.

    thatchersnemesis -> Kal El, 06 July 2014 7:51pm

    Because the Russians don't kill civilians do they? Certainly didn't in Georgia, or chechnya either. Come to think of it, no one got machine gunned trying to cross the Berlin Wall either...
    If you think Russia is a benevolent democracy, you need to try living there first.

    Wormsign815 -> thatchersnemesis, 06 July 2014 9:14pm

    I chuckle every time I hear about Georgia, seeing how people so conveniently omit the fact that Georgia started it, by shelling civilians in Tskhinval, and killing Russian soldiers stationed there in the process. Check Wikipedia, even it has a description of this short war that defies western media's blatant lie about how "Russia invaded and occupied two provinces in Georgia in 2008".

    As for Chechnya, you know when arab sheikhs pay actual terrorists to go and establish a jihadist emirate within the borders of your country, there aren't many ways in which you can react. Seeing today's Chechnya, I'd say Russia handled the problem pretty well. And with Salafism being the fastest growing Muslim sect in Europe, it remains to be seen quite soon how EU will handle the similar rise of radical religious militants on its very own soil. Let's wait and see.

    AidanFrance -> Victor Prutyanov, 07 July 2014 10:29am

    The west has been killing, raping and pillaging all across the world for the last 500 years. They then must have "negative" authority to speak up about human rights.
    You have some gall to talk about Russia's right to speak about a bloody situation in a neighbouring country where millions of native russians spekers live and millions of ukrainians work across the border in Russia.
    And the kremlin is the sponsor of this war...are you for real. You really think that Russia wants a civil war in a bordering country. WHo is the only country who can benefit from this?
    Do you think it is Russia?

    GeneralVV -> Walrave, 07 July 2014 11:53am

    You trust stories told by western/Ukranian mass media, which DISTORT the REAL events that happen in REAL Ukraine (I mean Ukraine with ordinary residents, but not that Ukraine with paid up oligarchs who are ready to sell out their country and their poor people and in this case blinking the reality with hundreds of dead people, damaged buldings and destroyed lives!!!). Every country wants to be free and independent and Ukraine is not an exception and it WAS independent but now it's on the hook de facto (but not on the hook of "rebels", who are trying to protect Ukranian native lands and towns but not bombing, or "pro-Russian separatists" or Russia itself ). Every day Ukranian press informs citizens that the common situation is under control but no...Sooner or later everything will be over and I mean not the civil war...

    Mitochondrion -> Walrave, 07 July 2014 12:31pm

    Where do you think U.S. puppet Poroshenko's Nazis were going?

    Kympachash -> Walrave, 07 July 2014 1:14pm

    They are not rebels --- they are antifaschists. Shame on Europe and USA for their open support of Kiev faschist junta.

    terziev, 06 July 2014 6:19pm

    And this is happening with the support of EU. The shame is on all of us!

    Zamindar, 06 July 2014 6:24pm

    I think a visit to the Ukraine is in order for all West Europeans. Travel does broaden the mind. Cheap flights from Gatwick !

    BMWAlbert -> Zamindar, 06 July 2014 6:28pm

    I am going back (for work) and was there recently (may), but this is hardly a good outcome, these regions could have been kept in place by a peaceful referendum, under proper conditions, the UA would have won such this Spring, now they will have ruined provonces and a quasi-N. Ireland situation.

    VladimirM -> BMWAlbert, 06 July 2014 6:33pm

    Kiev rulers rejected the idea of referendum, or federalization, they did not listening whatsoever. Peace was not what they needed.

    NWObserver -> VladimirM, 06 July 2014 7:08pm

    Kiev rulers rejected the idea of referendum, or federalization, they did not listening whatsoever. Peace was not what they needed.

    Kiev rulers are not a homogeneous lot. There is the Western appointed "interim" government that turned into "regular" government immediately after the Presidential election that has no interest in peace or even unity and then there is the democratically elected President who is interested in peace and unity but is hostage to the government. At the moment Poroshenko seems completely powerless, but he may be waiting for just the right moment to flush the neo-Nazis from the government.

    Kal El, 06 July 2014 6:28pm

    3 months and hundreds of civilian casualties to re-take a town of 100k.

    Donetsk itself has a population of 1 million according to the last census, 2 million if you count the suburbs. Whereas Lugansk has a pop of 500k.

    Pro-rata, looking at a campaign lasting over a year and with a more densely packed population, civilian casualties into 5 figures and 5-6 figure displacements/refugees.

    War in the middle of Europe and yet politicians in the West act as if nothing whatsoever is going on and Western MSM whilst watching it first hand ignores anything that would paint the Pro-Western fascist junta in Kiev in a bad light.

    Ain't humanity wonderful.

    Kal El -. Kal El, 06 July 2014 6:31pm

    edit: Lugansk 500k only (500k million was a typo)

    Kal El , 06 July 2014 6:34pm
    What has been won anyway ?

    As well as hundreds killed and thousands injured, thousands made homeless due to shelling, even more thousands displaced and refugees

    Ukraine's economy is in tatters, and the US/EU are too broke to help it.

    It's population is deeply divided and army action has only exacerbated that.

    The EU free trade deal will in the short term ONLY benefit the EU whose companies can flood Ukraine with goods straight away, whereas it will take Ukrainian companies months/years to comply with the relevant regulations. This will mean that EU companies will effectively kill off any Ukrainian competition before it even has a chance to compete. Therefore the free trade deal will ONLY benefit the EU in the medium and long term as well.

    Ukraine can't even pay for gas it has already received, it's going to be a long/hard winter.

    Ukraine has previously sent 27% of its exports to Russia and relied on Russia for 32% of its imports, but Russia has already started to block some imports. Putin can simply sit down in his chair whenever he likes and squeeze the Ukrainian economy's balls.

    Yatsenyuk bemoans that for the last number of weeks instead of complying with IMF demands to reign in spending, MP's have ONLY been passing bills to increase it for populist measures. Measures that won't happen because the money isn't there for them. Ukraine could therefore find that further IMF tranches are withheld.

    No money, no jobs, broken promises, and IMF austerity on top is only going to produce a very unhappy population. I expect gallows on Maidan for captured MP's before the end of the year.

    Crimea won't ever be going back. Which isn't surprising since Kiev illegally annexed it in 1995 anyway following referendums which it tried to ban in 1994 that voted overwhelmingly to leave Kiev's influence far behind.

    Ukraine's gold is now tucked away in the US Federal Reserve never to be seen again.

    Ukraine has now won ? From November last year to the present day, Ukraine has lost EVERYTHING it ever had.

    Heretica -> Kal El , 06 July 2014 6:59pm

    The EU free trade deal will in the short term ONLY benefit the EU whose companies can flood Ukraine with goods straight away, whereas it will take Ukrainian companies months/years to comply with the relevant regulations.

    This will mean that EU companies will effectively kill off any Ukrainian competition before it even has a chance to compete. Therefore the free trade deal will ONLY benefit the EU in the medium and long term as well.

    It will greatly benefit the US-Neocon establishment and their multinational corporate interests, which thanks to the TTIP will soon have a free hand (and legal immunity) to do whatever they want to Ukraine. The chaos and carnage is exactly what they want -- thereafter, they'll loot the remains. Likely add a US military base as well. A levered-in US/NATO puppet government would not be inclined to oppose the likes of Monsanto anyway...
    But the same also applies to EU controlled Europe, including the UK

    Buenaventura71, 06 July 2014 6:40pm

    For all we know the self-defence militias could be laying siege to Kiev and the Neocon Daily (sorry, the Guardian) wouldn't report it, like it failed to report the basic facts about the Odessa massacre or to do any sort of balanced, in-depth journalism about the broader Ukraine crisis other than press the Neocon line. How does it feel to go, in the course of a few months, from being a reference newspaper which ample sectors of the public trusted to report fairly on most issues to a Bush-Blairite rag which no one in their right mind would trust to tell the truth?? Congratulations, Guardian, I hope you feel proud of yourselves, and if in doubt please check the Comments section on your 'reports' about Ukraine to realise that nobody, I mean, nobody, is buying the Victoria Nuland version of events.

    mauman Buenaventura71, 06 July 2014 6:43pm

    Neocon Daily (sorry, the Guardian) wouldn't report it,

    Surprised your comment hasn't vanished. Mine do, frequently


    Kal El, 06 July 2014 6:41pm

    It would seem that so far, all the money loaned to Ukraine has been spent on equipping the army and death squads then paying them to kill as many Ukrainian civilians as possible.

    Maybe they are on bonuses for the number of kills.

    Nenad Vidovic Kal El, 06 July 2014 7:02pm

    Be shure that was also pressure on countries which have a soviet type weapons (Romania, Hungary, Poland, Croatia...) to deliver spear parts for planes and armored weehicles which were till start of operations in non operational conditions.

    mauman, 06 July 2014 6:42pm

    how many civilians are the Ukranian army killing daily?

    Ceasefire my ass. Civilians deaths continue to be ignored by the western media. We don't see the pictures. We do elsewhere though. We KNOW

    I'm actually embarrassed for this government that claims it's acting in our name by supporting murderers like this Ukrainian thug

    Peabody94 -> mauman, 06 July 2014 7:03pm

    Well there are quite a few embarrassed by the ravings of people such as you. Ever been to Russia or Ukraine?

    sfgirl42 -> Peabody94, 06 July 2014 8:21pm

    I visited Ukraine a while back but am astonished at the bloodthirsty ignorance and bigotry in "modern" Kiev.

    Caroline Louise, 06 July 2014 6:48pm

    "...Already, there is a huge amount of anger in the east over some of the methods used during the "anti-terrorist operation" to rid the east of fighters, much of which has relied on hastily assembled volunteer battalions..."

    "...Anger..."?

    "...hastily assembled volunteer battalions..."?

    But surely not. I thought "all of Ukraine" supported Poroshenko and wanted unity and EU love, and the "separatists" were just a handful of evil Russian spetsnaz hiding behind civilians and jumping out to murder Kiev heroes.

    If that's suddenly not true any more then when did it change? Is that another narrative dropped down the Memory Hole, along with the planned Russian invasion of - EVERYWHERE?

    Kal El -> Caroline Louise, 06 July 2014 6:54pm

    Notice it didn't say there was any anger in the West of Ukraine, who are either happy with deaths or just believe spoon-fed lies by the Government machine.

    Arapas -> Kal El, 06 July 2014 7:05pm

    Notice it didn't say there was any anger in the West of Ukraine

    There was -- But that is not the kind of thing that gets reported.

    He was asked by other MPs in Parliament: How long will you be killing OUR citizens and calling it liberation? Petro replied: I am not going to attack our armed forces!

    NWObserver -> Arapas, 06 July 2014 7:36pm

    He was asked by other MPs in Parliament:
    How long will you be killing OUR citizens and calling it liberation?
    Petro replied: I am not going to attack our armed forces!

    Interesting! Thanks for the information. He seems to be waiting for enough anger to build up in the rest of the country before he takes on the neo-Nazis. After all, before he does that, he needs to be sure that he won't meet the same fate that befell Yanukovych which the neo-Nazis warned him would be his should he act against their demands.

    Caroline Louise -> Arapas, 07 July 2014 12:39am

    Amazing. Do we have a source for that?

    Alice Ponomareva -> Caroline Louise, 07 July 2014 1:40am

    I haven't seen that video but saw another in youtube, where a woman parliamentary shouted to him Your ATO in the East is killing our children! and he just raised the voice to a high pitch "I won't allow any one to tar our Armed Forces".

    Noelemahc -> Arapas, 07 July 2014 8:26am

    Russian Channel One reporters went on a road trip around Western Ukraine, asking people in the street what they thought of the conflict in the East.

    Everywhere save Odessa (I wonder why, hmm) the sentiment was "kill the terrorists, there are no civilians left there, they have all fled into the West" and "Crimeans are traitors, they are not true Ukrainians".

    tephanblack, 06 July 2014 6:53pm

    winning a battle is not the same as winning the war…but who knows who is telling the truth….

    only time will tell if a full-scale guerrilla civil war breaks out….should the eastern ukrainians inflicting heavy losses on the kiev ukraine forces….not just in eastern ukraine but also in western ukraine then we will know that the kiev ukraine is lying about eastern ukrainians ….

    and that the eastern ukrainians do want to separated and independent from kiev….if there is no such guerrilla war and eastern ukraine become controlled by kiev relatively peaceably….

    without much of a fight then we will know that putin and the russian government was lying about eastern ukrainians wanting to be separated from kiev….and that eastern ukrainians are happy to be ruled by kiev….

    by winter we shall know for sure…some 4 months away...

    Arapas, 06 July 2014 7:01pm

    Petro Poroshenko, ignored calls from both Russia and the EU to extend a ceasefire that ran out a week ago and decided to go on the attack.

    And what an attack that was. Bombing civilian areas with artillery and from the air.
    Of course we rather not be told about it, his our "mate", our man in Kiev.

    Petro, you are a WAR CRIMINAL.

    3KOSTURA, 06 July 2014 7:04pm

    Blasted be the neocons and the mercenaries, for they shall inherit the scorched earth.

    braciole , 06 July 2014 7:05pm

    Poroshenko should quit while he's ahead. Having won a "great victory", he should now negotiate a settlement. Unfortunately, the morons in Washington will think they're winning and will press him to continue the fight and in the long run Ukraine will lose.

    RussianFriend, 06 July 2014 7:12pm

    "it appears that the tide may have turned."

    It is too early to draw any conclusions yet. Conflicts of this kind do not have a regular pattern and may flare up in totally unpredictable ways. This so-called victory is absolutely dismal given the scale and scope of all-out support from NATO that the Poroshenko clique enjoys .

    And then, of course, it's one thing to seize a city smashed into rubble and quite another thing to restore life there. Today's victorious trumpeting is surely too premature.

    Heretica -> Paul Leduac, 06 July 2014 7:25pm

    Just as the Confederates wanted to separate from the same USA.

    How many tens of millions deaded, worldwide, before you realise that the side you so evidently -- and perhaps lucratively -- support, are total shits?

    DomesticExtremist, 06 July 2014 7:15pm

    Not so much a victory for the Ukranians as a retreat by the anti-government forces in the face of blanket bombardment of Slavyansk and Kramatorsk. Many civilians have been killed and many more will be slaughtered in the days to come.

    Note that the reporter is safely ensconsed in Moscow, not on the ground and
    makes no mention of conditions there.

    Doug Salzmann -> DomesticExtremist, 06 July 2014 7:19pm

    Note that the reporter is safely ensconsed in Moscow, not on the ground and makes no mention of conditions there.

    Liberated Slavyansk MrSvejk, 06 July 2014 7:17pm

    hope they can come to a peaceful settlement, that allows the Eastern region to become an independent free state

    PyotrGrozny, 06 July 2014 7:24pm

    "Kiev now faces a sizeable task to win back the population"

    Does Kiev want to win back the population or was this 'ethnic cleansing' ?

    Doug Salzmann -> PyotrGrozny, 06 July 2014 7:27pm

    Considering the percentage of the residents of Slavyansk (and other towns) who are now refugees, and the stated aims of the Kiev regime, ethnic cleansing would be the smart bet.

    RuStand -> Walrave, 06 July 2014 8:21pm

    >going to try to win back the population.
    Their methods of winning back reduce to putting a sack over someone's head pulling the trigger and demanding to sinf UKraines anthem or Bandera slaogans.

    Marqus, 06 July 2014 7:25pm

    Poroshenko doesn't understand that for Russia exists the same red lines so loved by Mr.Obama. Enough is enough. In web there are pictures of nazies and it's assistants hanged in Kiev after retake of red army.

    The history has it's habit to repeat. In this case again as a tradegy

    Scipio1, 06 July 2014 7:26pm

    When I saw that televised mob in Independence Square (Kiev) during the ceasefire baying for blood, I knew that Ukraine as a unified political state was over. How can you have a unified state which treats half its population as 'the enemy' with the full backing of the other half. As for the people of the East they must struggle on even if Putin has abandoned them - which is what it looks like - since the alternative for them is Palestinianization.

    The Kiev-regime has evidently copied the methods of Mossad and the IDF.

    Ambricourt, 06 July 2014 7:40pm

    It is extraordinary how this report shifts terminology. The opening establishes "Ukrainian troops" (photo), "Ukrainian authorities" (Para. 1) and "Ukrainian forces" (para.2). Then the notion of Authority is reinforced by quoting President Poroshenko's words: "...tighten the ring around the terrorists" and "continue the operation."

    The proponents of federalism are now demeaned by the word "terrorists" and dehumanized by the word "operation". A few brief words from federalist/"terrorist" leaders then suggest their future strategy before they are again demeaned by reference to "mistakes", high casualties, withdrawal and possible Russian disinterest.

    Only in the penultimate paragraph does an overview suggest that the victorious Ukrainian Army may largely consist of "hastily assembled volunteer battalions" who are closer to mercenaries than the Ukrainian regular "troops/authorities/forces" so guilefully evoked at the start of the report.

    Is it surprising that Guardian readers are confused?

    SoloRolo -> Ambricourt, 06 July 2014 9:25pm

    I doubt whether many are "confused", any more than you are. You've highlighted the modus operandi very neatly. It is all too familiar.

    Oskar Jaeger -> Ambricourt, 07 July 2014 4:17am

    No we are not confused. It is government forces against the rebels.

    Noelemahc -> Oskar Jaeger , 07 July 2014 8:40am

    The point the OP was driving at, I believe, was that the article is written in a way that deliberately dehumanizes the anti-Kiev side, denying their point of view any, well, point.

    "They're evil orcs from Mordor, and they eat babies for breakfast", you know?
    "So go on, give up your sons for the volunteer corps which we will issue these brand new (actually recently shipped in from Poland) state of the art (actually Soviet army surplus) rifles and ballistic vests (shown even on Ukrainian TV to be unable to stop an AK bullet) and let us send them to fight for the glory of the Independent Ukraine!"

    This is so 1984 it's not even funny.

    RuStand, 06 July 2014 8:00pm

    Indeed, a symbolic win. An all-out army assault on a small contingent of untrained self-defence.. Army using aviation, mortars, all sort of heavy artillery to shell indiscriminantly civilian targets - hospitals, schools everything ... led defenders to perform a tactical retreat. With almost all of their forces easily escaping from the surrounded town. They started with a 100 of unexperienced volonteers with 1 kalashnikov for every 3 of their men and left Slavyansk haing several hundred hardened and expereienced fighters armed to teath with machine guns, trusks, APCs

    ID3377086 -> RuStand, 06 July 2014 8:07pm

    The most ridiculous is silence from the European fighters for human rights.

    canadaeast -> ID3377086, 06 July 2014 8:38pm

    Forget the human rights hypocrites.

    I want to see a true view , from the air, of Slaviansk.

    I want to see representative streets and not on building.

    I want to know how many people are buried tomorrow. This would be an

    indication as to whether the nazi goons are executing supporters
    of the fighters. This would be truthful journalism.

    Heretica -> MuadDibFremen, 06 July 2014 10:13pm

    an independent multinational observation team

    Like the supposedly independent team looking for WMD in pre-war Iraq, which turned out to include a contingent working for the CIA and related agencies who hid US missile guidance devices.

    fluorescente, 06 July 2014 8:08pm

    In the moment it seems more a victory to the separatist movement than to Ukraine. It took them 3 months to regain the city which was held by some hundreds fightrers, city is heavily damaged and its population's hatred for Kiev is bigger than ever. Despite the fact that it was absulutely clear to everybody Slovyansk will inevitably fall, ukrainians assumed Strelkov will stay there and die like a martyr. Which he didn't, tricking ukrainian army in the last moment before their final attack and getting out of the city with most of his men, vehicles, weapons. Gaining time to regroup and prepare the defense of Donetsk.

    This man, colonel Strelkov, seems to have an exceptional strategic talent and he is gaining immense popularity in East Ukraine and Russia every day. And his ideas: rebuilding of the Great Russia. Not the soviet one, the one prior to that. It is known that he is everything else than a fan of Vladimir Putin, and some experts even claim there are already moves from Kremlin to neutralize Strelkov. Maybe in not so far future we will see an alliance, where nobody could imagine it: between Kiev and Moscow.

    canadaeast -> fluorescente, 06 July 2014 8:32pm

    Putin does not control these people and I doubt that Russia is officially
    helping the easterners. The flow of Russians across the border by all
    accounts I have read is marginal. On the other hand the SVR is obviously
    there.

    Putin would not dare betray the Donetz people by divulging tactical moves
    etc. The security services of Russia would eliminate him for one thing.
    For another this is political suicide. I have heard on RT, in an interview,
    Svoboda (a well known Russian commentator) saying that VVP should be actively helping.

    I personally believe that if an air assault is mounted against either Donetzk or Lugansk and too many civilians get killed the Russian airforce will enforce a no-fly zone over them.

    Stewby -> fluorescente, 06 July 2014 8:42pm

    Maybe its a political win for Poroshenko in west Ukraine but it's not worth a whole lot as a military victory. I guess they have a purchase now on the shale gas fields though, which is important since they aren't going to have any gas next winter except that laundered through Europe. The EU importing more from Russia so they can send their gas from other sources to Ukraine may work somewhat if Russia doesn't cut them off. I suppose I should quit complaining about this cause we'll need Ukrainian food production to replace that produced with the faltering Oglalla aquifer.

    Heretica -> Stewby, 06 July 2014 10:02pm

    Toxins from Monsanto is what will be grown in Ukraine.

    Marqus, 06 July 2014 8:10pm

    There's a leakage of conversation of kievs junta in web with some proves on illegal trading of human parts taken from cadavers or heavily injured in eastern Ukraine. The trade is organized by junta what has helped to reduce the line of needed in German, Israel etc.

    The same occurred in Kosovo. Coincidence?

    thatchersnemesis, 06 July 2014 8:18pm

    Isn't it funny that ukrainians are being called fascists because those in western ukraine joined nazi germany to rid ukraine of the soviets, yet no one seems to call the Finns fascist for joining nazi Germany in fighting the red army out of Finland. Maybe Finland should ask for the return of karelia?

    Good luck to galicia in their fight for independence.

    Sarah7591Wilson -> thatchersnemesis, 06 July 2014 8:54pm

    Some -- not all -- Ukrainians are being called Nazis not because of what their grandparents and parents did 70 years ago, but because they subscribe to the extreme nationalism, racism, fascination with and marked enjoyment of violence, as well as the other key tenets of Nazism.

    A number of Jewish organisations as well as the EU Parliament itself identified Svoboda as a fascist or a Nazi organisation in 2012 and explicitly urged the rest of the opposition to condemn and distance itself from it. Svoboda's fan base, the part of Ukraine from which the party draws most of its support, is in western Ukraine and Lvov (an old Banderist stronghold) in particular.

    Heretica -> thatchersnemesis, 06 July 2014 8:54pm

    Fascinating how you can contrive to think that total economic, political and environmental domination by predatory foreign multinationals, a US military presence -- with immunity in advance for all crimes committed by both -- and submission to sundry dictates from a corrupt EU regime that's hardly famous for integrity or democracy and operates as a branch office of the Neocons' NWO, is somehow "independence".

    Marqus, 06 July 2014 8:25pm

    Meanwhile the Ukrainian ministry of energy declared that Russians couldn't be the shareholders of ukrwestern consortium of transit pipeline system.
    Are there violations of international laws inc those of WTO?
    And who is interested in that system if there's no Russian transit of gas?

    Sarah7591Wilson -> Marqus, 06 July 2014 8:45pm

    Matteo Renzi is on record about intending to press the rest of the EU to back the South Stream pipeline, which the Americans have got Bulgaria to suspend work on. Italy has the rotating EU chair for the next 6 months, and I suspect Poroshenko and the rest of the Kiev regime are scrambling to put together this new company with the help of the Americans before Ukraine is rendered irrelevant by the South Stream pipeline. As for the legality of this clearly descriminatory ban, there's likely to be at least one human rights violation (violation of the UN charter) in excluding the citizens of just one particular country for no other reason than they are the citizens if that particular country and not another.

    Stewby, 06 July 2014 8:25pm

    Ukraine is creating it's own problems by producing combat hardened troops that they will later have to discharge into an environment of rampant oligarch looting and corruption. The real threat to Poroshenkos state will be an enraged ethnic Ukrainian populace unless they reform themselves which is quite unlikely. It's pretty clear that most Ukrainians don't favor the Nazi-lite parties so they'll turn on them soon enough.

    I'm curious to see how western media will justify Kiev suppressing the "heroes of Maidan" with military weaponry. A paper with forward looking propaganda strategy would be using EU officials names in all their pro-Maidan stories so that the EU officials can have Google suppress results based on privacy.

    If EU officials are exempt from the memory hole then they should just pick some random Polish dude and insert his name in every story about Ukraine. Then when the globalists turn on the Maidan they can pretend that Maidan were always naughty chaps.

    ploughmanlunch, 06 July 2014 8:25pm

    I am genuinely pleased for the citizens of Slavyansk and several other Eastern Ukrainian towns that are no longer being subjected to shelling, cross fire etc. associated with fighting in urban areas. It's impossible to watch the footage of the displaced and bereaved without being moved.

    Poroshenko no doubt he feels that the outcome justifies the manner of the military operations. They are indiscriminate and brutal.

    I do not wish to see the unfortunate citizens of Donetsk subjected to the same horrors.
    That the anti-Kiev fighters cannot hold out without serious Russian assistance is obvious.

    That the Kiev regime cannot prosecute total 'victory' without an inevitable massacre of many more innocent civilians is equally clear.

    Surely this is a time for negotiating.

    If Poroshenko insists that the 'elimination' of all 'terrorists' is more important than the lives of Ukrainian citizens, then his true character is revealed, despite the spin that Western media will undoubtedly put on the proceedings.

    Sarah7591Wilson -> ploughmanlunch, 06 July 2014 8:35pm

    Forgive me if I missed the relevant comments by you in the last few days, but I don't recall you expressing concern, regret, and indignation that the Ukrainian government was shelling and bombing the citizens of the South-East regions who are demanding autonomy from Kiev and self-rule.

    Heretica -> ploughmanlunch, 06 July 2014 8:45pm

    If Poroshenko insists that the 'elimination' of all 'terrorists' is more important than the lives of Ukrainian citizens, then his true character is revealed, despite the spin that Western media will undoubtedly put on the proceedings.

    Poroshenko should beware of the US/NATO tendency to flip which front-men it backs -- as soon as it better suits the longer term Neocon agenda, that chocolate-nazi pig will one way or another get eradicated by them as "an extremist" (and therefore allegedly nothing to do with them) so the US/EU axis can replace him with a "moderate" butcher such as Tymoshenko.

    Voltaire21 , 06 July 2014 8:29pm

    But according to so many on this blog, how is this possible???All of East Ukraine was supposedly standing as one behind the separatists and were all going to defend their crackpot self appointed republic to the death?Yet Slavyansk has fallen over like a leaf...no 3 months siege here...

    Or is the reality maybe that a few hundred pro-russian thugs wanted to play little soldier and at the first sign of loss and death of the more hardcore elements none of the Russian minority had the heart for this war anymore.

    Me thinks alot of people have embarassed themselves on these blogs defending this tiny self-appointed Pro-Russian minority to the hilt who never had a leg to stand on from the beginning. Even Putin arguably their biggest ally stood by and watched the clown show unfold. He may have given them weapon but very little else.

    Caroline Louise -> Voltaire21, 06 July 2014 8:38pm

    Read the article before commenting friend...
    .
    ""...The town ...has undergone food and water shortages in recent weeks as Ukrainian forces have encircled it, and there have been civilian casualties from Ukrainian shelling. Almost half the population have fled, many to refugee camps in Russia, and Kiev now faces a sizeable task to win back the population....

    "...Already, there is a huge amount of anger in the east over some of the methods used during the "anti-terrorist operation...."

    Now ask yourself who has embarrassed themselves today?

    Caroline Louise -> Voltaire21, 06 July 2014 9:11pm

    Whoa, well now look at you, safe in your armchair pontificating on the "commitment" shown by people in a town far away, living without food and water, having their homes reduced to rubble, watching their loved ones and neighbours die.

    Try and have a little respect.

    And if even the Guardian version of reality is to "pro-Russian" for you now, you need to ask yourself exactly how much of a blind apologist for fascism you are prepared to become.

    EbbTide64 -> Urobulos, 06 July 2014 10:49pm

    The fact of the matter is that Yanukovytch was elected on a "Pro-Russia and pro-EU" mandate and was carrying out his election promises. The EU & IMF wanted all of Ukraine to themselves, with trade with Russia effectively banned.

    The EU also demanded that Tymoshenko be freed, as a part of the deal. I don't know any countries which allow outsiders to tell their justice system what to do.

    So Yanukovytch told the EU & IMF to sod off. Yanukovytch is no more corrupt than Poroshenko or Tymoshenko, both of whom are best mates with the EU & US.

    [Jul 06, 2014] Ukraine: Retreat From Slaviansk Far From End Game

    moonofalabama.org | Comments (182)

    The Saker is somewhat depressed that the insurgents in east Ukraine retreated from Slaviansk. But that retreat was in good order and with few losses despite being surrounded by enemy forces. As their commander Strelkov explains there was no way Slaviansk could be defended against superior artillery and air superiority with little means to counter those.

    Strelkov is now setting up defenses in Donetsk which is a much bigger city with more resources and likely easier to defend. As the Ukrainian army and the National Guard stormtroopers from the Right Sektor now move forward they may soon find that they have some "left behind" enemies in their back who can seriously influence their operations.

    Supporters of the insurgents seem to blame Russia's President Putin for lack of (visible) support. But that is, in my view, thinking too small. It is far too early to have any idea of who has won or lost in Ukraine. What Putin is currently trying to do, with growing success, is to separate the Europeans from the ever meddling United States. Last Thursday a new agreement on a ceasefire was negotiated and agreed upon with Russia, France, Germany and Ukraine at the table. When the German chancellor Merkel informed U.S. President Obama about it it was the U.S. which again threatened Russia and urged the Ukrainian President Poroshenko to continue his "Anti-Terrorist Operation". The Germans and French will have taken note of this and will again move a bit more further towards the Russian side.

    In judging the current situation I agree with Anatol Karlin who finds that Putin is playing a clever but cynical game:

    [T]he lack of *direct* [Russian] intervention is more likely just the product of a series of cold calculations that show it more likely to be effective in a few months than today, when:

    a) The Ukrainian Army has become weaker and more demoralized;

    b) Photos of bisected, bloodied, and burnt corpses have been filling the Russian and international airwaves for a few months;

    c) The resolve of the West and its unity are weaker;

    d) The Russian economy is more prepared for any sanctions that are forthcoming; and

    e) Austerity is biting Ukraine hard, and (gas-less) winter is coming.

    Too bad that it is the residents of Donetsk who will be playing the blood price for this.

    The Twisted Genius (TTG), who is former Green Beret trained in creating and directing local insurgencies, has a somewhat similar take on the situation:

    [Putin] he is another hard hearted empath. He knows that Novorossiya must be forged from fire if it is to survive. They must want it and be willing to fight for it themselves.
    ...
    Additionally, Putin disdains the West's penchant for R2P and aggressive interference in the affairs of others. He will move if he thinks it is necessary and when he thinks it is necessary. For now, I believe he is content to provide covert support as necessary, push for a real ceasefire and political solution, and bide his time as a new nation that intends to span from Kharkov to Oddessa and Transnistria births itself.
    Posted by b at

    Yonatan

    "Too bad that it is the residents of Donetsk who will be playing the blood price for this."

    The whole of Ukraine is a sacrificial pawn - the real target of the US machinations is and always has been Russia. The US seeks to destroy Russia's independence and reduce it to a vassal state so the US control its energy. That is why the US wants to prevent South Stream starting. Startup of South Stream would totally bypass Ukraine, removing the US control of gas flow and the potential to control the Russian and EU economies it allows. Remember Putin is the President of Russia so his responsibility lies there.

    The trolls may well start up their 'Putin betrayal', 'Putin needs to grow a pair' etc, but the people who need to 'grow a pair' are the EU politicians. They need to recognize that a rabid Nazi regime in Ukraine is a threat to them as well as Russia. My understanding is that Putin is working on this. France has seen treatment the of BNP and the demands to sacrifice its economy by cancelling Mistral. Germany has found the alleged spy, and DB is facing similar threats of fines from the US. My impression is that Putin wants certainly France and Germany to agree to some kind of peace force to protect the citizens in the south east of Ukraine.

    If that fails and direct intervention becomes necessary, it will be at a time of his choosing, when he has full support of the Russian people (as with Chechnya 2) and when his military are happy the they have clear military targets (where, how many, what form etc) and a clear political political end game (what's the exit plan?).

    The Ukranian Right Sektor have ambitions to gain nuclear weapons (remember the control defense and energy (incl. nuclear) ministries. They have openly stated they would use such weapons pre-emptively. Thanks to the US, there are a number of loosely regulated bio-weapons plants in Ukraine (near Kharkiv, Odessa for certain). The Ukraine situation is a real tinderbox and the massacre of the poor citizens in the east is just the start.

    Armchair generals, please feel free to provide us with any evidence that answers these questions, particularly how to deal effectively with the RS Nazi problem. Otherwise feel free to leave town on the rocking horse you rode in on.

    Bob In Portland

    At its simplest, US involvement in Ukraine has more to do with Russian pipelines than anyone or anything in Ukraine. The US is trying to put a cork into Russia's delivery system to Europe. The tell has been the US meddling in the South Stream pipeline. It's quite simply a business maneuver to put western-controlled petroleum in prominence in Europe and to break the Russian connections with the west. All the neo-Nazi street fighters who are puffing their chests and thinking great thoughts about destiny and the will of the pure Ukrainian race are all going to be disappointed. Actually, if they look around they should be figuring it out already, but most will soon enough.

    Let us say for a moment that the US is meddling in Ukraine for purely "honorable" reasons. Allowing the South Stream to go ahead would relieve Moscow of its biggest worries (at least economic) with Ukraine. Ukraine could go forward with its austerity program and the EU/IMF/US could have the remains. But it's all about the control of energy. That's what Afghanistan was about, a means to project itself into Central Asia and that big pool of petroleum there. Crimea would have been a wonderful jumping off point to dismantle Russian control of all that.

    It's very possible that once Crimea was taken by Russia this grand strategy was shattered and everything else now is just spite. It won't end well for the Ukrainians, east and west.

    Also, Germany seems to be making a lot of noises about the US and its NSA spying. Since the BND and CIA (and their antecedents) have been working together since WWII, the fact that the US spies on Germany is absolutely no surprise to them. I'm sure they do the same. For as much indignity as Merkel has shown I wouldn't doubt that she has access to the menu from the White House kitchen every night and whether Obama sleeps on his back or side.

    scalawag

    "In judging the current situation I agree with Anatol Karlin who finds that Putin is playing a clever but cynical game...Too bad that it is the residents of Donetsk who will be playing the blood price for this."

    That's a clever way of making "Putin" out to be the "bad guy" for not following western plans to get Russia involved in the Ukraine. The obvious undertone in what "b" and Karlin say is that it is up to "Putin" (1) to intervene and stop the western crimes there. Hence, it's now "his" fault the people in Novorossya are suffering.

    What about the "cynical" west who are responsible for all the violence in the Ukraine? What about "b's" German regime who have done squat to prevent to war, even though they easily could have stopped it cold, and have been behind the western coup from the very beginning, and subsequent repression and attacks on the people there? What about the other EU regimes playing along with the criminal western attack? What about the people of the EU and the USA who sit idly by as their countries promote war after war, coup after coup, and literally do nothing to stop them?

    Karlin starts out reasonably in the first paragraph, but after that, one can see he is mostly cleverly applying western propaganda. He uses the western disinformation that Russia (using the "Putin" western propaganda meme) is driving the rebellion in the SW, when Russia is not, and had even requested the rebels to hold off running their separatism vote. He falsely claims it is Russia's plan to get many 1000's killed, and then use that as an excuse to enter and take over, when Russia never wanted a separate Novorossya to begin with.

    He makes false claims about the militia and troop casualty ratio that makes it clear he is relying upon the false figures put out by the bandera nazi junta.

    Karlin leaves out the western intervention in the Ukraine and the fact it is the driving force there. The west supplies the money, leadership, tech support. It is the "head" of the Ukraine now. The war crimes there are western war crimes. Karlin ignores this completely, and reinforces the western propaganda meme of Ukraine vs "Putin". With that, he is able to ignore all the other geopolitical factors and make the conflict appear to be a cynical "Putin" plan for taking over the Ukraine.

    The west engineered their bandera nazi coup in the Ukraine as part of a renewed assault on Russia. They have been trying to get the Russians to intervene by every means possible. The latest ploy now is the "guilt trip" tactic. They keep increasing the provocation level, killing more people, to that end. The west knows public opinion in Russia is in favor of intervention to stop these western nazi war crimes, so they push the "Putin must intervene" meme to discredit him in the eyes of Russian people, as a cynical way to try and force a Russian intervention.

    What Karlin (and "b") is doing in that piece is reinforce that propaganda strategy. Basically, if their war crimes are not getting their desired reaction from the Russian government, they work to get the Russian people outraged enough, public opinion will force the result they want on the Russian government.

    This was a successful strategy used by the west in their Pussy Riot operation. They had Pussy Riot stage increasingly provocative actions, trying to force the Russians to arrest them. When arrest was not forthcoming after the church "act", they pushed their "5th elements" (2) in the media to whip up outrage and force the government to act. When they finally arrested the plugs, then the rest of the western plan was implemented, with the results we all saw. This, in effect, is the same strategy the western fascists are applying in the Ukraine to manipulate the Russians into following the western script for Russia's isolation, eventual regime change and break-up.

    Incidentally, propagandist Karlin got thrashed in the comments after his piece. It's good to see that people are seeing through this cynical western PR strategy to entice Russia to follow the western fascist "Great Game" plan.

    (1) not Russia, you notice, got to keep with that western propaganda meme of "personalities", easier to use to demonize, and manipulate the masses by reducing geopolitics to simple minded soap opera themes. Dovetails right in with their daily television indoctrination.

    (2) obviously not all are "5th element", but enough to influence. With their Ukraine op, the outrage is enough that there is a significant push for intervention naturally, without need to really to artificially hype it in the Russian media. The western PR manipulators know that.

    Ronald Thomas West
    Merkel is playing a dirty double game, but that's par for the course, with the Christian Democrats NAZI heritage. Related to this, there is a lot of Ukrainian life force to be drained to the benefit of the Germans

    http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2014/06/30/the-ascension-of-morons/

    What's amazing to me is, the Ukrainian naiveté. One would think they'd have wised up by now, they are used as stooges and discarded like subhuman slav morons (I tend to agree with the moron part)

    Ukraine crisis Government troops oust pro-Russians to reclaim rebel-held Slavyansk

    The Independent

    A source close to the rebels told Reuters the rebels had been outnumbered by 50 to one and that Government forces had more powerful artillery and weapons.

    The Guardian

    ProfRatBaggy, 05 July 2014 1:25pm

    How is this a battle to maintain 'independence' and not a civil war?

    Can we keep biased political commentary from news reports, please!

    CutThruMediaLies, 05 July 2014 1:32pm

    A bit problematic this article. Reaction of the people - what is it? Nature of the takeover. Kiev Post have broadcast that fighters for Kiev will receive 'parcels of Land'. Kiev has announced that they will not receive people surrendering. The Kievan forces rely on overwhelming and indiscriminate bombardment with focus on critical services ie water and electricity which is against the Geneva convention. The Kievan army itself advertises it's nationalism and refers to Russians in the most awful way even though the people they are killing and fighting against are overwhelmingly Ukrainian. The use of heavy ordnance and aero planes is against the Geneva convention. The Kievan government have therefore carried out human rights violations than those that were used to destroy Libya and led Hilary Clintonone of many Anglo-American sociopaths in positions of responsibility to declare 'we came, we saw, he died.. ' gleefully. Where are Human Rights watch where are the UN? This stinks to high heaven.

    A few illustrative points

    A few things here:
    1. The Link - Unexpurgated propaganda from Novorossiya the name given to the Donetsk/Lugansk breakaway regions in the Ukraine. Shows that there is something very fishy going on and if, I can't quite believe it , they have captured the amount of military hardware that they say they have, the war there is going to go on and on for ever regardless of external intervention.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTjjnIbfg2U

    2. A Historical Statement from the EU 13th Dec. 2012 regarding Svoboda the political party which represents Ukraine nationalism (previously Social-National Party of Ukraine) whose founder, Andriy Volodymyrovych Parubiy, heads the Ukrainian National Security Council (after the Maidan Coup). "Parliament goes on to express concern about the rising nationalist sentiment in the Ukraine, expressed in support for the Svoboda party, which as a result, is one of the two new parties to enter the Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian Parliament). It recalls that racist, anti-semitic and xenophobic views go against the EU's fundamental values and principals and therefore appeals to pro-democratic parties in the Verkovna Rada not to associate with, endorse or form coalitions with this party."
    3. I don't know if any of you have watched the world at war. It was a definitive documentary made in the Seventies by the BBC voiced over by Jeremy Isaacs.
    The opening scenes show footage from the air of a French village, Oradour-sur-Glane, voiced over by Laurence Olivier. This village had its population completely massacred in a 'retaliatory operation' by SS Division SS Das Reich. They were herded into a church which was set on fire and machine-gunned. Das Reich has a regimental symbol called the Wolfsangel. This division fought on the Eastern Front as well though surprisingly, maybe even amazingly, for an SS division serving on the Eastern Front, I have been unable, in my brief check, to find any evidence of similar atrocities on the Eastern Front. More likely to my mind is that 'counter insurgency' tactics adopted on the Eastern Front were used in Oradour-sur-Glane.

    I'll get to the point. A new brigade, the 'AZOV' brigade, has been formed in the new Ukrainian 'National Guards Army'. If you look at this link, you shall see what I mean. Its hard for me to believe that the emblem isn't derived from SS Das Reich's.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/ukraine-nazi-emblems.jpg


    If this is representative of the activities going on in South Eastern Ukraine, has our media simply gone mute, or is there something even worse going on?


    RhysGethin CutThruMediaLies, 05 July 2014 1:35pm

    Oh dear, you wrote all that and then right at the end posted a link to the barmiest conspiracy theory site on the internet.

    CutThruMediaLies RhysGethin, 05 July 2014 1:56pm

    Facts my dear boy, facts please point out where the facts are mistaken and I will check and admit error. Given the allegations which I am making and the fact that they receive no corroboration in the common sense media, I illustrate from where I can. The guys who run that site are a guy called professor Chussodovsky who is an economist who was a peer of Milton freedman. Some of his books namely the globalization of poverty are extremely serious. And factually quite accurate. From your post I postulate that you are simply a slightly ignorant pejoratative idiot. Problems with facts fine but writing off a source is simply the act of an ugly biped who charges money to innocent civilians to cross bridges.

    MalenkyMuk, 05 July 2014 1:34pm

    The worst news of the week. My heart is crying. Is there any justice in the world? Is there God?

    ProfRatBaggy MalenkyMuk, 05 July 2014 1:36pm

    God is an English man.


    efreelittlehelps, 05 July 2014 1:40pm

    http://www.sott.net/article/281400-Leaked-US-think-tank-plan-on-E-Ukraine-suggests-internment-camps-executions

    Urobulos efreelittlehelps, 05 July 2014 2:38pm

    And it's straight up, completely made up bullshit, that has nothing to do with Rand.

    efreelittlehelps, 05 July 2014 1:46pm

    Dr Paul Craig Roberts including the russian white book


    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/03/washingtons-war-crimes-spread-africa-middle-east-ukraine-paul-craig-roberts/


    neomarxist, 05 July 2014 2:02pm

    The battles are won or lost and it does not mean victory until the end. The worst part is that the Guardian mentioned nothing about civillian casualties for one week and suddenly reports the victorious Ukraine army.

    Aleksandr Romanovich Podgaets -> neomarxist, 05 July 2014 6:12pm

    Ukrainian army bombed civilians for a week, then fighters decided to go to another city. Victory declared.

    at least that's what the article says.

    christopher22, 05 July 2014 2:05pm

    Has everyone noticed the (REMF) US military commentators are out in force today..
    They have been ordered to post this right-wing nonsense of course but it is clear nonetheless, that some of them actually believe that their efforts are supporting the USA against an imaginary Russian enemy .
    As anyone with more than two brain cells knows though they, like their political masters, are dancing to a tune which is orchestrated by Wall St, Arms manufacturers and corporations (the 0.01%in fact)
    Y'all come back real soon now y'hear?

    EbbTide64, 05 July 2014 2:08pm

    Obviously killing people's friends and relatives will persuade them to become pro-westernisation.

    Should the people in the east should just lay down their arms and meekly allow the pro-Kiev neo-Nazis to massacre more innocent, unarmed people, as happened in Odessa?

    Poroshenko needs to show that he has control over these Right Sector thugs, before he can reasonably expect people in the east to lay down their arms. They have a right to defend themselves from murderous neo-Nazis.

    Wiccaman, 05 July 2014 2:10pm

    Good to see the Guardian's legions of cruise missile liberals out in force cheering on another Western crusade to the last drop of someone else's blood, but remember...

    In Iraq, Saddam was our man against the Iranians -
    Then we killed him.
    In Afghanistan, Bin Laden was our man against the Soviets -.
    Then we killed him.
    In Libya, Gaddafi became our go-to man for rendition and other services -
    Then we killed him.
    In Syria, ISIS were our men against Assad -
    And now we are planning to kill them.
    Now in Ukraine, Petro Poroshenko is now our man against Russia
    And then...
    Who wants to be our friend next? Any takers?
    With Kissinger's doctrine, you don't have friends, just material interests...

    Have a look behind the MSM facade here...

    http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=12060

    PeterBrit, 05 July 2014 2:16pm

    Putin has sacrificed the eatern rebels so that he can hang onto Crimea which is what he really wanted in the first place. Billioniare oligarch Poroshenko gets to proclaim 'victory' in the east, EU and western face is saved, and Crimea stays Russian. Everybody's happy.

    Except of course, for the poor bloody Ukrainians, who still have no economy, still have a billionaire oligarch ruling them, and are probably about to face savage cuts in their already meagre standard of living, in order to meet the terms of western loans to Kiev.

    ProfRatBaggy PeterBrit, 05 July 2014 2:18pm

    That's more or less it.

    PeterBrit ProfRatBaggy, 05 July 2014 2:28pm

    Meanwhile elsewhere, completely unreported in the western press, the Syrian Army have retaken Aleppo's indutsrial zone, and look likely to raise its flag over Aleppo in the not too distant future. But the rebels there still have foreign support and somehow I imagine if the Syrian Army do finalize their recapture of Aleppo it won't get quite the same celebratory coverage in the western press. It won't be described, for instance, as 'a turning point in the country's'... 'battle to maintain its independence'

    ddtman, 05 July 2014 2:22pm

    Mother buries five year old child and husband in East Ukraine (Lugansk region)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DNDjy_P0iVI


    MrS