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Odessa Massacre of May 2, 2014

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  I know why the so-called Western MSM defend Banderovski killers so hard. They simply are protecting unfairly persecuted minority of man-eaters!

The essence of Odessa Massacre is the security operation of junta directed on cleaning Kulikovo Pole pro-federalism protest camp that went bad ( The Odessa Massacre in Detail- An Investigation nsnbc international).

Some protesters were killed in the building. that includes well know photo of a woman, who was supposal strangulated. There are also multiple indirect evidence  that some toxic substance was dispersed in the building leading to death of many protesters against Kiev junta (which are conveniently called pro-Russian separatists by Western MSM). One hypothesis is that it was chloroform. Odessa massacre victims died in seconds, not from smoke – emergency service chief — RT News

Bodelan was by the building when it was set on fire and said that even before the smoke spread inside, he saw people leaning outside windows trying to take a breath of fresh air.

“I cannot explain why they were having such trouble breathing, but I am 100 percent sure that it was not because of the smoke caused by the fire,” Bodelan said.

... ... ...

Local activists have noted that it could be a provocateur. In the media there were indications that it could be a powerful opioid karfentanile used as an anesthetic for large animals. Officials did not comment on karfentanile"

However, Russian experts doubted that chloroform could cause the death of so many people. In order for dozens of people, even indoors to be poisoned to death by this substance, "it must be poured into the extremely large quantities - many dozens, if not hundreds of gallons."

According to “official information,” six people died of gun shots, 32 suffocated or died in the flames and another 10 fell to their deaths.  Like was the case with sniper-gate, Kiev has zero credibility as for conducting this investigation so figures should be considered as created arbitrarily.

The RS goons and football ultras from Kharkov were sent to Odessa as part of Turchynov’s publicly declared plan to reverse the spread of eastern separatism. 

Consider the following account of the massacre in the New York Times:

As the building burned, Ukrainian activists sang the Ukrainian national anthem, witnesses on both sides said. They also hurled a new taunt: “Colorado” for the Colorado potato beetle, striped red and black like the pro-Russian ribbons. Those outside chanted “burn Colorado, burn,” witnesses said. Swastikalike symbols were spray painted on the building, along with graffiti reading “Galician SS,” though it was unclear when it had appeared, or who had painted it.

Oligarch Kolomoisky also might had been involved. Most of the participants of pro-junta crowd were not from Odessa. They were bussed to Odessa to implement specific, probably developed with the participation of Parubiy, plan of eliminating pro-federalization protesters camp. And "hired guns" outperformed expectations of  their puppet musters.

Wittmont -> hertsred
08 May 2014 10:15pm

The Guardian and NATO cannot admit that the attack on Odessa was a planned operation and the deaths at the hand of the nazi attackers was a massacre.

It doesn't really fit in with the 'We are the Good Guys' vs. 'the Bad Russians' narrative if we are supporting Nazi war criminals.

After this event Ukraine moves to Chile-style methods of suppressing dissidents. Methods similar to used under the military government by Augusto Pinochet.

Police was probably bought out by organizers of the massacre and demonstrated total abrogation of duty! The same is true about fire squads. They were not in a hurry. This should never have been allowed to escalate to the point to which it did.

Here is stories of two Odessa fire survivors, both in the pro-federalization camp There are also other analogies


08 May 2014 10:44pm

Wow, this looks more and more similar to Bangladesh Genocide of 1971. A legitimately elected government being dismissed and unelected forces, supported by west taking over and oppressing the people who voted against them. My ancestors suffered a lot in that 1971 tragedy, hopefully people of Ukraine have a better fate.

My condolences to the people of Odessa. I’m just beyond disgusted with western politicians and western media. Listening to Merkel and Obama praise Kiev for its ‘restraint’ in dealing with the south and east and then threaten Russia with more sanctions while a mixture of football ultras and neo-Nazi mob pushes people into a building and then kills them and burn the corpses – well, it’s beyond belief. But neo-Nazi consider that to be normal and even the worthwhile achievement:

Odessa mama burns!

Odessa mom burns!

Here are some comments from discussion at Want to Know Why The USA is Slipping on All Fronts? Exhibit A.

marknesop says:

May 3, 2014 at 10:54 am

The Kiev phony government must be held to account, and punished for its crimes, though. No “we just didn’t know” excuses can be accepted – the RS and football hooligans were sent to Odessa as part of Turchynov’s clearly-enunciated policy to stop the spread of eastern separatism to other cities.

Those people were not from Odessa, they were sent to Odessa to make mischief. And did they ever do that.

Turchynov should hang.

Moscow Exile says:

May 3, 2014 at 2:25 am
“Are these my people?”

“Они счастливы, когда обгоревшие люди прыгают из окон

[They are happy as people on fire are jumping out of the windows].

Wonder what Kerry and Obama and Powers have to say about all of this?

Let me guess: it’s all of Russia’s making.

karl1haushofer says:

May 3, 2014 at 2:31 am
“Wonder what Kerry and Obama and Powers have to say about all of this?”

Good! Russians are dying! Let’s have some wine to celebrate.

marknesop says:

May 3, 2014 at 12:05 pm
A great Right Sector victory. Odessa must still bear some responsibility, though – where were the fire department, and the police? The latter are said to have stood by and done nothing, but if that is accurate they should all be jailed at a minimum, because people were strolling around the outside of the bui

lding, casually pot-shotting with pistols at people clinging to the window-sills. There were no apparent attempts to put out the fire, the building was just allowed to burn.

Nice one, Yarosh, you twisted fucker. I hope they slice you like bacon when they catch you. And we must not forget that these people are operating under an official (as official as an unelected government can make it) government mandate and were exempted from the order to disarm by government intervention.

Moscow Exile says:

May 3, 2014 at 3:20 am
Одесса дом профсоюзов ПОЛНОЕ ВИДЕО
[Odessa Trade Union House FULL VIDEO]

Posted with above clip:

Ukraine clashes: dozens dead after Odessa building fire

The Trade Union building was set alight after a day of street battles in the Black Sea resort city.

More than 30 people were killed in violent and chaotic clashes in the southern Ukrainian city of Odessa on Friday as pro-Ukraine activists stormed a building defended by protesters opposed to the current government in Kiev and in favour of closer ties with Russia.

The violence continued on Saturday as Ukraine said its forces had attacked pro-Russian separatists in the industrial east of the country at dawn near the town of Kramatorsk.

Interior minister Arsen Avakov said Ukrainian forces had seized control of a television tower in Kramatorsk, near the rebel stronghold of Slavyansk, where there was heavy fighting on Friday. “We are not stopping”, Avakov wrote on his Facebook page, but gave no information on casualties.

Odessa’s large Soviet-era trade union building was set alight on Friday as the pro-Ukraine activists mounted an assault as dusk fell. Police said at least 31 people choked to death on smoke or were killed when jumping out of windows after the trade union building was set on fire.

Bodies lay in pools of blood outside the main entrance as explosions from improvised grenades and Molotov cocktails filled the air. Black smoke from the building and a burning pro-Russia protest camp wreathed the nearby square.

Pro-Russia fighters mounted a last-ditch defence of the burning building, throwing masonry and petrol bombs from the roof on to the crowd below.

Medics at the scene said the pro-Russia fighters were also shooting from the roof. At least five bodies with bullet wounds lay on the ground covered by Ukraine flags as fire engines and ambulances arrived at the scene.

Some people fell from the burning building as they hung on to windowsills in an attempt to avoid the fire that had taken hold inside. Pro-Ukraine protesters made desperate efforts to reach people with ropes and improvised scaffolding.

“At first we broke through the side, and then we came through the main entrance”, said one pro-Ukrainian fighter, 20, who said he was a member of the extreme nationalist group Right Sector.

“They had guns and they were shooting … Some people jumped from the roof, they died obviously”, he said.

Riot police arrived on the scene as hand-to-hand fighting was already under way inside, but did not enter the building and stood formed up in ranks outside.

Within two hours of the assault beginning, the resistance from pro-Russia activists inside the building seemed to have been quelled. Several fire crews were spraying the smouldering building with water and ambulances lined the streets outside.

Bloody and dazed pro-Russia protesters were eventually escorted from the building. Many were handed over to police, and loaded on to police vans. Some were assaulted by the crowd.

I have corrected some grammatical errors in the text above, but I’m sure I’ve seen it before. I think it’s basically a Western journalist’s report – I think Howard Amos of the Guardian.

And the comments come thick and fast. Amongst the very first is one mocking the deaths of the anti-government people. Others blame Russia, the USA or both.

And there’s this one, very early on:

Каждый Гражданин Украины, имеет полное моральное право, уничтожить сепаратиста-террориста любым удобным ему способом.

Слава Україні! Героям слава!

Every Ukrainian citizen has the full moral right to exterminate a separatist-terrorist by any means at his disposal.

Glory to Ukraine! To the Heroes glory!

Interestingly, that quoted comment is written in Russian except for the exhortation to glorify the Ukraine and its heroes, which is written in Ukrainian, albeit that there is only one difference between the two languages in this respect, namely the word for Ukraine in the dative case.

Video footage exists showing injured people who’d jumped from the burning building being made to crawl past a line of jeering neo-Nazis – the degeneracy on display – from the fascist f**kwits right up to western so-called leaders is just sickening and hard, i suspect, even for MSM to spin.

So far only Russian TV (the First channel) attempted to reconstruct minute-by minute chronology of the event. Provocation gone wrong: Murky forces instigating Odessa violence?

Video footage filmed during the bloody events in Odessa that claimed dozens of lives on Friday shows a more complicated picture, with provocateurs instigating the violence.

Ukrainian authorities blamed the pro-autonomy activists for starting the clashes that led to the tragic fire at the House of Trade Unions. The interior ministry stated that anti-Kiev activists attacked supporters of Kiev authorities before retreating to the building for shelter, and threw petrol bombs at the crowd triggering the fire.

Russia’s Channel One television reconstructed the chronological order of events using publicly available YouTube videos detailing what happened in Odessa on Friday.

It began with a football match between two teams – Chernomorets Odessa and Metalist Kharkov. Despite the high political tensions in the region, authorities still allowed the match to take place, realizing that a few thousand pro-Kiev football fans would be arriving to the city.

Following the match, around 1,500 supporters of the Kiev authorities and football ultras came together for a march in support of Ukraine’s unity. The rally was sanctioned by local authorities.

Nationalists made their way towards the center of the city chanting “Glory to Ukraine” and “Death to enemies,” as well as “Knife the Moskals (derogatory for Russians).” Some people in the group wore ultra-nationalist movement insignia. They were armed with chains and bats, and carried shields.

The violence started when the pro-Kiev crowd was met by what looked like anti-government activists. They were wearing St. George ribbons – identifying them as pro-autonomy – and red bands around their sleeves. Some of the riot police officers present at the scene were wearing the same red bands around their sleeves.

Image from

Image from

Then the visibly smaller group of alleged anti-Kiev activists started to attack the march, apparently provoking the demonstrators. Footage then shows a smaller group men wearing red bands luring the pro-Kiev crowd into a different direction.

At some point, the police line opened up to let the men wearing red bands through and closed back up again. A video then shows a man standing behind the police lines shooting at the pro-Kiev crowd.

The provocations succeeded in triggering clashes, as both sides began to throw stones, and shots were heard.

The alleged anti-Kiev activists then disappeared and angry pro-Kiev supporters headed to the opposition camp based in front of the House of Trade Unions.

However, none of the original attackers with the red bands were there. Instead, a few dozen pro-autonomy activists were surrounding the camp. When the activists saw the angry mob approaching, they took shelter inside the House of Trade Unions.

Survivors of the fire say they had to barricade themselves inside the House of Trade Unions to hide from the agitated mob, which torched their tent camp.

Radicals then began throwing Molotov cocktails at the Trade Unions building, setting it on fire. Witnesses say those who managed to escape the blaze were severely beaten outside by the besiegers of the burning building.

But the Ukrainian Interior Ministry offers a different version of events, saying the victims of the violent unrest started the fire themselves when they began throwing Molotov cocktails from the upper floor.

Multiple videos of the incident, however, show Molotov cocktails flying from outside the building. Another video shows that some radical pro-Kiev elements were also inside the building, waving a Ukrainian flag.

The evidence leads one to conclude that the football fans could have been manipulated while unknown forces instigated the violence.

Here is a part of hugely popular article on the topic by Nuyra Berg Ashes Odessa Martyrs knocks on our hearts (slightly edited Google translation) :

Ukrainian patriots, especially among highly educated intellectuals, so to speak, in the first generation of aristocrats, terribly disappointed, furious and even frightened: Odessa cops released without trial several dozen separatists.

Italics are typical and is not the most fragrant for our "national-conscious" media headline news at one of the sites.

The reality is that Odessa common people, burning with right anger, manages to free from the Odessa Police Department several people arrested for the fact that they were burned, injured and assassinated but managed survive in May 2 killing. But then was arrested on charges of organizing mass riots and participating in them.

Dear patriotic public outraged and puzzled even asks - how ? Now they will avenge us and maybe even want to kill us -- They may want the revenge... But how wonderful everything has had started. Damned Colorados kneaded and baked, done of them. Their corpses were grilled as kebabs, over howling approval and victorious ecstasy of social networking sites. With joy expressed so profoundly that it seemed to be heard from the monitors .

Opinion leaders from among the best patriotic journalists, bloggers most hyped, striking writers, editors, two days deputies led by enthusiastic fit . Governor of Odessa region assured everyone that the fight against terrorists conducted lawfully, and all actions necessary to recognize correct patriots ; best fighters with separatism have won awards, Timoshenko has blessed our glorious fighters for Ukraine for future exploits .

It would seem that this is all we can wish for

The junta t even disdained clear instruction of Washington Obcom curators who suddenly decided to declare that the monopoly of violence should be only from the state. Junta know that the curators antics are no more than necessary hypocrisy, and that they properly understands hints, winks and fingers crossed under the table those who desperately mowing, lies on the state's monopoly on violence.

Junta has made it clear that from now on anyone can kill and burn an enemy, he just need to know how correctly nicknames him or her. Now the junta knows full well that no matter how cannibalistic are its own actions or actions of those who consider themselves patriots, it will always receive complimentary assessment from the international community - completely blind, deaf and dumb to any autocracies if they are committed in the name of their interests, political, economic or any else. .

New power Odessa run all the day a scrolling announcement on all monitors that everything was done correctly against the terrorists, and the central government declared mourning over the loss of anti-separatist fighters.

However, not perverse evolution of junta is the most frightening factor here -- they are only a reflection of what people which installed it in power want. The most terrible thing is to realize that this event reflects the immanent features of our newly mint civil society, so long and persistently cultivated in vitro - as a kind of experimental mega-homunculus with predetermined properties . Among them - the cruelty and contempt for the neighbor if he or she does not share our views, the extreme intolerance of any opinions deviating from approved party line, and completely totalitarian way of thinking, including coldness and indifference to the sufferings of others. .

When the gentle young ladies with bloodthirsty delight write in their Facebook accounts, that this is a real delight to see the death Colorados - whether shot at checkpoints, or burned alive at Odessa Khatyn or killed at point-blank by sniper. And this mood did not emerged just now.

When with ill-disguised glee taking head of leading television channels, with banners above their stupid heads that read "United Country", report about the victory over the terrorists, referring to his own countrymen who disagree just in the issues of language used and the level autonomy for their regions it's just the apogee of the long history of dehumanization of the nation.

Throughout the years of Ukraine's independence, rather than creating a single political nation, representatives of which have lived comfortably in the overall country, regardless of ethnicity and language, rather than a guarantee of preservation to each his own identity, one part of the country worked relentlessly about presenting other us undermench.

No, certainly not the people themselves . At the level of ordinary human contact and dorm situation for quite some time was quite acceptable. Children in the South-East learned Ukrainian language, wove wreaths, learned to paint Easter eggs, happy to sing Ukrainian folk songs, and on school holidays took trips to exotic for them former Austrian and then Polish city of Lvov which suddenly became the most Ukrainian city in Ukraine. The admiring the Ukrainian culture, European buildings, architecture and other signs of "Authentic Ukraine", who for the cosmopolitan people of South- East were somehow both mysterious and attractive.

Schoolchildren Crimea and Donbas consistently won at the Ukrainian Language Olympiads, taught fake history and customs of his newly created country, and, in general, life was OK, if you close yeses to the consistent and persistent attacks of Western Ukrainians on their own cultural identity .

Generous people of Donbass for a long time ignored or failed to notice that behind all all of this grandeur of "authentic Ukrainian culture" from Western Ukraine there is a distinct smell of Western Ukrainian fascism. And starting from 90th there were articles that wrote about them with ill-concealed contempt, arrogance, slightly hinting that they are second rate Ukrainians, not quite capable of subtle feelings, uncool, silly, rednecks. No, if the word Untermensch was not yet a fashionable work in modern Ukrainian newspeak, but this is what they really meant.

The farther away, the less shy became Galicia educational missionaries. Frost they started to call all residents of Donbass "sovok" then gopnik, the cattle, "budlo". Then it became fashionable to practice periodically shrewd thinking that " maybe we should let mossy scoops sausage roll to Russian without interfering with us to build magnificent palaces of Europe's democracies ." These articles written by the best representatives of Galichia cultural missionaries were usually written in Berlin and Prague cafés on stipinds from Konrad Adenaure or similar finds, openly published, and no one, mind you, not even one tries to ro shame them.

After 2010 this trend went into overdrive. The most bold hired pens of Galichia finanlly stopped to limit themselves to the stylistic and lexical beautifications and opnly started to write about Donbass all the unpleasant things all want, is not limiting themselves even by minimal decency.

Despite the fact that at the helm was Donetsk guy, the happy owner of a golden bowl, the one that gave rise to the volume of works and tons of dollars of Western Grants for rubbing the subject with their bought tongues, people of Donbass were denigrated by the army of hardworking fighters for the converting South-Eastern Ukraine in Galicia II.

They were denied to have any common human merits, but only unparalleled stupidity, slavery, servile habits - as opposed to the great merit of Galicia population. Technology was very efficient, pragmatic and admittedly participants were well paid. In order to make the project with code name "Anti-0Russia" you need a rigid discourse of moral, cultural and intellectual impotence of those who speak Russian language as their native tongue and consider themselves belonging to Russian culture. And nothing less then that.

Пепел одесских мучеников стучит в наши сердца by Нюра Н. Берг

Украинские патриоты, особенно из числа высокообразованных интеллигентов, так сказать, аристократов в первом поколении, страшно разочарованы, взбешены и даже где-то напуганы – одесские менты выпустили без суда и следствия несколько десятков сепаратистов. Курсивом выделен типичный и еще не самый пахучий как для наших неупередженных СМИ заголовок новости на одном из сайтов.

Так вот, из одесского горуправления милиции оскорбленные, горюющие, пылающие гневом горожане смогли вызволить тех, кого убивали и жгли 2-го мая, и кто остался в живых, но потом был арестован по обвинению в организации массовых беспорядков и участии в них.

В Одессе освободили всех активистов Антимайдана, задержанных 2 мая

Уважаемая патриотическая публика возмущена и даже в недоумении спрашивает – как?! Теперь же они будут нам мстить и, возможно, даже захотят расправиться! Возможно, захотят... А ведь как чудесно все складывалось. Проклятых колорадосов замесили и испекли, наделали из них гриль и шашлычки, вой одобрения и победного экстаза покрывал просторы социальных сетей так плотно, что, казалось, был слышен с мониторов.

Лидеры общественного мнения из числа лучших патриотических журналистов, самых раскрученных блогеров, ярких публицистов, главных редакторов, народных депутатов двое суток возглавляли восторженную истерику. Губернатор Одесской области уверял всех, что борьба с террористами велась законно, и все действия патриотов надо признать правильными; лучшие борцы получили премии, Тимошенко благословила борцов за нашу Украину на будущие подвиги.

Казалось бы – чего желать?

Новая власть даже презрела ясные указания кураторов, которые внезапно решили заявить, что монополия на насилие должна быть только у государства. Новая власть убедилась, что кривляния кураторов не более чем необходимое лицемерие, и что она правильно понимает намеки, подмигивания и скрещенные под столом пальцы тех, кто, отчаянно кося, врет о монополии государства на насилие. Новая власть четко дала понять, что отныне каждый может убивать и жечь, если знает, как правильно назвать убиваемого и сжигаемого врага. Новая власть теперь твердо знает, что сколь бы людоедскими ни были ее собственные телодвижения или акции тех, кто считает себя патриотом, она всегда получит одобрительные оценки пресловутой мировой общественности – настолько слепой, глухой и немой, насколько этого требуют интересы их подопечных. Новая власть Одессы целый день целый день гоняла по экрану бегущую строку о том, что против террористов все было сделано правильно, а центральная власть объявила траур в связи с гибелью бойцов АТО...

Самооборона одесского Майдана отрицает свою вину в трагедии 2 мая

Однако не эволюции власти пугают больше всего, они лишь отражение того, чего хочет признающий ее народ. Страшнее всего осознавать, каково качество нашего гражданского общества, так долго и настойчиво выращиваемого в пробирке – как некий экспериментальный мегагомункулус с заранее заданными свойствами. И среди них – жестокость, презрение к ближнему, крайняя нетерпимость к чужому мнению, сугубо тоталитарное мышление и катастрофическая холодность к страданиям других.

Когда нежные барышни с кровожадным восторгом пишут в своих аккаунтах, что на улице праздник в связи со смертью колорадосов – расстрелянных ли на блокпостах, сожженных ли в одесской Хатыни, убитых ли в упор карателями – это ведь не сегодня началось. Когда с плохо скрываемой радостью ведущие телеканалов, над головами которых висит огромная плашка «Единая страна», рапортуют о победе над террористами, имея в виду собственных сограждан, просто имеющих другой взгляд на будущее родины – это тоже не вдруг, это просто апогей многолетней истории расчеловечивания другого.

На протяжении всех лет независимости Украины, вместо создания единой политической нации, представителям которой комфортно бы жилось в общей стране независимо от этнической и языковой принадлежности, вместо гарантии сохранения каждому его собственной идентичности, одна часть страны упорно расчеловечивала другую.

Одесская милиция проявила халатность и неоперативность 2 мая - Ярема

Нет, конечно, не сам народ. На уровне обычного общежития и человеческих контактов ситуация довольно долго была вполне приемлемой. Дети Юго-Востока учили украинский язык, плели веночки, учились расписывать пасхальные яйца, с удовольствием пели народные песни, а на школьных каникулах ездили посмотреть экзотический для них Львов, восхищаясь аутентичной украинской культурой, вышиванками, архитектурой и прочими признаками украинства, которые для космополитичного городского Юго-Востока были чем-то таинственным и привлекательным. Школьники Крыма и Донбасса последовательно побеждали на всеукраинских олимпиадах по мове, учили историю и обычаи своей страны, и, в общем, жить было можно, если закрывать глаза на последовательное и упорное наступление на собственную идентичность.

Великодушные донбассцы долгое время не замечали, как среди всего этого благолепия, уже в 90-х, то и дело появлялись статьи, в которых о них писали с плохо скрытым презрением, высокомерием, слегка намекая на то, что они как бы недоукраинцы, не вполне способные к тонким чувствам, неотесанные, глуповатые, прямолинейные ватники. Нет, тогда этого слова еще не было, это модный современный новояз, но имелось в виду что-то подобное.

Чем дальше, тем меньше стеснялись образованцы. Начали с совков, потом донецких открыто начали называть то гопниками, то скотами, то быдлом, потом модно стало периодически упражняться в томных размышлениях «а может, пусть замшелые совки катятся колбаской, не мешая нам строить великолепные европейские демократические чертоги». Эти статьи лучших представителей укрсучлита, как правило, написанные в берлинских и пражских кафе, публиковались открыто, и никого, заметьте, никого даже не журили, не то чтобы называть сепаратистами.

Тимошенко: Милиция не виновата в произошедших событиях в Одессе

После 2010-го и вовсе все пошло вразнос. Самые бойкие перья страны, окончательно не ограничивая себя в стилистических и лексических красивостях, писали о донбасских от вольного все, что желали, не заморачиваясь уже и минимальными приличиями вроде эвфемизмов и иносказаний. Несмотря на то, что в Межигорье сидел главный донецкий, счастливый обладатель золотого унитаза, того самого, что вызвал к жизни тома завистливых сочинений и килограммы грантовских денег на натирание предмета красноречивыми языками, донбассян трудолюбиво и совершенно бесстрашно умножали на ноль лучшие витии страны.

За нами не числилось никаких достоинств, а только беспримерная тупость, рабство, холопские замашки – в противовес великой галичанской ясновельможности. Технология действенная, прагматичная и, надо признать, эффективная. Сделать проект Нероссия можно было, только формируя жесткий императивный дискурс морального, культурного и интеллектуального ничтожества носителей русской идентичости. И никак иначе.

Изобразительное искусство тоже в долгу не оставалось, достаточно посмотреть на изображения «кацапской быдлоты с востока» - плюющих семки, бухающих из горла туповатых гоблинов. Раз в год львовяне устраивали у себя потемкинские деревни под общим названием «схидизахидразом», везли к себе темных луганских детишек и показывали им, как цивилизованное панство празднует пасху, например. Или на фоне тотального презрения вдруг объявляли лицемерно-циничный день русского языка…

Яценюк назвал виновных в гибели людей в Одессе

Дегуманизация «донецких» (харьковских, луганских – юго-восточных, в общем) шла по экспоненте, и промежуточный апогей ее наступил в 2013-м, когда парень из Белой Церкви Вадим Титушко был назван символом донецкого гопничества, и его фамилия, ставшая нарицательной, лепилась к любому, кто вызывал гнев у украиноязычных патриотов. Титушки - все как на подбор - оказывались русскоязычными носителями свинцовых мерзостей жизни. Эту кликуху смело употребляли общественники и мытци, журналисты и народные депутаты, ею клеймили с высоких трибун и телевизионных экранов, применяли уже как официальный термин, и любой невежественный, но профессионально-патриотичный пан мог смело обзывать титушкой кого угодно совершенно невозбранно.

Потом титушки были заменены провокаторами, орками, животными, потом сепаратистами, наконец – террористами. Можно ли жалеть террориста или орка? Можно ли считать его равным себе? Можно ли вообще принимать всерьез быдло? Скота? Раба? Можно ли предполагать, что ему бывает больно?

Можно ли стесняться при нем? Учитывать его ничтожное мнение? Остановиться перед тем, чтобы плюнуть ему в лицо, дать по морде, поставить на колени? Сжечь, наконец, и устроить веселый праздник по тому поводу?

Если вы правильно назовете врага, да хоть бы он был вашим земляком или соотечественником, все вышеперечисленное сделать намного легче.

Володимир Бондаренко: В мерії під час Майдану був цех по виробництву наркотиків

В апреле вот в Киеве устроили перформанс. С некоторых пор любой кусочек дерьма можно назвать артобъектом и ходить вокруг, восхищаясь глубиной авторского замысла и полетностью фантазии мытця, этот кусочек положившего. Собственно, в Европе мода на разнообразные бессмысленные инсталляции давно вчерашний день и даже пошлость, но до наших свиридов петровичей все доходит с большим опозданием, несмотря на их пламенные европейские амбиции. Поэтому куда конь с копытом, туда и Антин Мухарский с клешней.

В Центре современного искусства (sic!) он поставил клетку, посадил туда двоих москалей, плюющих семки и бухающих в режиме реального времени, грязных, отвратительных гоблинов, символизирующих, по замыслу мытця, весь русский мир. Клетка была обернута российским флагами, а вокруг стояли передовые киевские журналисты, довольные по самую маковку увиденным и чувством большой человеческой общности друг с другом и Антином. «Тварин не годувати», - просила табличка.

Намек был понят даже самыми тупыми – это не просто кацапы из Кацапии, это те самые пророссийские сепаратисты, которых так ненавидит патриотическая тусовка и которым она готова разнести головы и города, лишь бы не дать им уйти.

Обама поддержал действия украинских военных на Востоке страны

История, конечно, не нова. Холокост стал возможен не в последнюю очередь благодаря тому, что простым немецким обывателям, незлобивым, в общем, бюргерам, была массово имплантирована идея, что евреи не люди, и с ними поэтому можно делать что угодно – да хоть сумочки из их кожи носить, предварительно утилизировав ненужные останки. Жиды мыли мостовые зубными щетками, и маленькие немчики могли подойти и плюнуть в них – не люди же, чего их жалеть? Карикатуры тех лет изображали еврея примерно так же, как сегодняшние антины показывают москаля – расчеловеченным существом, животным, оно. Так, говорите, фашистов в стране нет?

Но даже при всей этой длительной истории унижения себе подобных реакция нашей образованщины, наших либералов и патриотов, долго исполнявших умеренный просвещенный национализм и воротивших носы от зловония фарионовской продукции, не может не изумлять. Ведь в Одессе произошло что-то запредельно ужасное, это не карикатурки чертить, не виршики поганые лепить. Страшно, мученически погибли люди.

Никакого сочувствия, никакой задумчивости даже. Два дня азартно обсуждаются версии, почему это прекрасно. Сначала – потому что это были российские диверсанты. Казалось бы, бинго! но не нет, оказалось, что все одесситы. Тогда в ход пошла версия о том, что они сами себя подожгли. Подробный разбор видеодокументов, опровергающих эту чушь, не впрок. Сами-сами. Черт с ним, что уже и подвига борцов нет, раз сами, ну ладно. Главное – результат. Так ведь это были люди, и они сгорели, вы понимаете, подонки? Разве донецкое быдло ликовало, когда вы хоронили погибших на Майдане? Разве кто-то злорадствовал?

Во Львове снова горел Русский культурный центр

Впереди пелетона, по обыкновению, дамы. Ангелоподобная румяная мамаша Оробец с ясными глазами и вокабуляром нацистской погромщицы; жалкая уже в своей многовекторной злобе Тимошенко, чествующая убийц как героев; редактриса одного из самых одиозных неуперовских сайтов и другая, жеманно и томно изображавшая из себя реющую на высоте птичьего полета над майданом бесстрастную бытописательницу… Читать их тексты по поводу победы над «колорадосами, которые сами виноваты», немыслимо, невозможно, за гранью.

Публика попроще и вовсе не стесняется. Конечно, какое может быть сочувствие к шашлыкам и грилю?

Что-то страшное и невозвратное произошло с общественными умонастроениями в едыной крайине, какая-то тотальная гуманитарная катастрофа национального масштаба, что-то важное человеческое потеряно. Навсегда? Почитайте, что пишет доктор из Одессы.

"Меня зовут Игорь Розовский, мне 39 лет, я живу в городе Одессе. В течение 15 лет я работаю врачом в службе скорой помощи.

Как вы знаете, в нашем города случилась страшная трагедия, одни люди убили других. Убили жестоко - сожгли живыми... потому что они не разделяют политических взглядов националистов. Сначала жестоко избивали, потом жгли.

Как врач я поспешил оказать помощь тем, кого можно было спасти, но меня остановили боевики, не дав подойти к раненому. Один из них грубо оттолкнул меня, пообещав, что скоро меня и других евреев Одессы ждет такая же участь.

Я видел парня, которого можно было спасти, если бы я смог забрать его в больницу, но все уговоры закончились ударом по моему лицу и потерей очков.

За 15 лет я видел очень многое, но вчера я хотел плакать нет, не от боли или унижения, а от бессилия, что то сделать. В моем городе произошло то, чего не было даже при фашистской оккупации. Я задаюсь вопросом, почему молчит весь мир?"

Салютин: Трагедии, которая произошла в Одессе, город не знал со времен войны

Правда больше никого не интересует, есть только свои и чужие, просветленные и рабы, патриоты и колорадосы, проукраинские и гриль. Что, скажите, что мешало вам услышать других? Нет ответа. Есть стрельба, пожары, вертолеты и танки, акции устрашения, ультиматумы и ненависть. Всепоглощающая, громкая, тотальная. Взаимная. Сегодня протестующие на Юго-Востоке повторяют ходы, предложенные высокообразованными киевскими интеллектуалами, годами науськивавшими украинцев друг против друга в бесконечных марафонах ненависти на телеканалах. Вы, либеральная образованщина, понимаете, что наделали?

Как помириться? На чем? Как жить после того, как близких тебе людей, которые всего-то хотели быть услышанными своими согражданами, называют грилем погромщики, пинающие сожженных ногами?

Пепел Одессы стучит в наши сердца. Как с этим жить?

Нюра Н. Берг, специально для Полемики


Гореть вам в аду, подонки!!!!!! Вы за все ответите. Стыдно жить с такими в одной стране. Распоясовшиеся малолетки-быдло. Как шакалы по ночам выходите. Что, слабо было вчера, когда нормальные одесситы освобождали своих героев выйти и выразить свое мнение было? Нет, вы ночью, шакалью ходили и орали. У вас ни совести. ни уважения к памяти погибшим. Будте вы прокляты во веки вечные!!!!


КАК С ЭТИМ ЖИТЬ???!!! А мы и НЕ живем больше! После Одессу наши души и сердца мертвы! Нет больше слова "милосердие" и "сострадание"! Их выжгли из нашего сознания! теперь только адекватный ответ фашистам! НЮРА, спасибо! Утром не открылась "Полемика", как не гуглил, не мог найти ВАС! Думал. хана! Последней отдушины нас лишили!

Alex Kent

Гуглите "Как убивали одесситов в Доме Профсоюзов – детали сценария +18". откроется много адресов. Смотреть, начиная с первого, в разных адресах и коментах много дополнительных фото и видео. Это ужас!!! У гитлеровцев просто была налажена рутинная работа по уничтожению людей, переработки их в сырьё. Украинские националисты превзошли всех прочих фашистов зверствами и уродливой психикой.


У "свидомых" шакалов есть одна общая ублюдочная черта - они считают геройством нападать на беззащитных людей многократно превосходящим их стадом. Так было в Киеве, когда они избили битами несколько десятков НАСТОЯЩИХ киевлян которые "посмели" высказать несогласие с многочисленным гуцульским табором на Крещатике. Так было недавно в Запорожье, когда они намного превосходящей численностью толпой забрасывали горстку "колорадов" камнями. Так было в Одессе... У меня перед глазами картинка кинохроники: зал суда, убийца (совсем недавно смотревший на своих сограждан свеху вниз в своей безнаказанности) со слезами на глазах просит сохранить ему его поганую жизнь. Помните, гниды, пощады не будет. Ответите за все.


Неееет... эти ублюдки даже полезны. Они показывают истинное лицо нынешней власти. Было бы гораздо хуже, если бы молчали (а "вешать" бы стали "потом"). Немцы никогда не говорили евреям, что везут их убивать. "На работы", "на переселение", еще куда-то. Чтобы не взбунтовались раньше времени. Потому их столько и убили. А у этих малолетних дебилов мозгов-то нету, вот они все планы хунты, "единой краины", раньше времени и разбалтывают...


Когнечно видали,и теперь уже неважно видит-ли это на Западе,я,пускай это не покажется циничным,рада,что он умер в 95.Он хотя-бы,умирая знал,что прожил не зря,вчера я говорила своему сыну о том,что если-бы его дед не воевал,то не родилась-бы я и следовательно и он.Эти,не знаю,как их назвать не только убийцы,они убивают и в нас все человечекое,если до Одессы я хотела только забора,то теперь мне этого мало,а что касается укрпсевдоинтелектуалов-пуля найдет "героя"! А вот коментарий на мое пост-оцените " Правда завжди перемагає і, як бачимо правда виявилася не на боці шльондр та підарів ;-) І за вами прийдуть, виблядки, що розпалюєте війну - цей шашлик тільки початок "


Мы тоже всяких уродов видали на майдане, но жгли только БЕРКУТ. А вы ПОДОНКИ затеявшие эту войну со своими же до сих пор понять не можете, что народ украины уничтожают своиже и АМЕРИКЕ не обязательно вводить сюда войска и зачищать территорию - здесь и своих тварей найдется в избытке (ублюдков бандеры). До вас до сих пор не доходит, что майдан 2013 - 2014 года положил начало развалу Украине. И никакие ваши флажки на канальчиках, никакие угрозы и унижения уже ничего не исправять. А наоборот вы такое впечатдение, что намеренно играете на руку тем, кто хочет уничтожить страну. И обвинять в этом вам надо прежде всего СЕБЯ.

Valery Scherbak

Будь ты во веки веков проклят,Владислав Симиренко!!!Пусть кровь невинно сожженных людей падет на головы подонков, допустивших этот кошмар. В первую очередь на кукловодов, этих Обам с Меркелями, которые дергают за веревочки наших доморощенных упырей. Какое кощюнствующее лицемерие --говорить и писать бред о единой стране, когда немецкие эсэсовцы в гробах переворачиваются от восторга, глядя на те жуткие зверства, что допускают их последыши в Украине.Нюра, искренне уважая Ваш талант, мне непонятно, о каких интеллигентах Вы упоминаете в статье??? Это Оробец, фарион, Турчинов с Яценюком интеллигенты???Ведь это все нелюдь, типичные "марлоки", вечная им АНАФЕМА.

Nataly Mileshko

Первый же комментарий подтверждает сказанное в статье! Быдло с Западной Украины,возомнившее себя паном глумится над погибшими женщинами и молодыми людьми Ведь даже Ярема сказал. что в доме профсоюзов сгорели одесситы и что оружия там обнаружено не было. Я стыжусь жить в одной стране с таким одноклеточными мудаками. Надо от них отъединяться. Пусть майданят без нас на просторах полонины

Nataly Mileshko

Мразь бандеровская! У вашего гитлерюгенда что не было автоматов. У большинства сожженных огнестрельные ранения. Вы их добивали,твари.


Пепел стучать не может, но пепел сожженных в Одессе стучит меня в грудь. И поднимает волну ненависти, нет не к этим малолетним идиоткам, разливавшим бензин по бутылкам, и даже не к этим моральным уродам, радующимся чужому горю.

Я ненавижу этих президентов,продавших свою страну за горсть сребреников(пусть даже большую горсть) от горбачева до януковича, особенно последнего, видите ли он не хотел проливать кровь, и по-этому убежал, в результате всю страну залили кровью. Я ненавижу и презираю трех тушек майдана, которые ради того, что бы дорваться до кормушки, посылают в братоубийственную бойню, тысячи людей. И эта ненависть сжигает мою душу. мы никогда не узнаем правду об одесских событиях,да и кому уже нужна эта правда? Акценты расставлены и конвейер убийств за "правое дело" запущен.

Но я искренне надеюсь, что настоящие организаторы и исполнители одесских событий, в полной мере испытают то, на что они обрекли других.

Valery Scherbak

Олег! Кукловоды сидят за океаном и в кабинетах Рейсхтага. Местные недоумки лишь выполняю их команды, окончательно потеряв человеческий облик.

Аферист и махровый ворюга Аваков радуется количеству убитых в Славянске патриотов и мирных жителей, другие подонки выступают с лживыми версиями событий в Одессе.

Но, мы ведь знаем истинную цену этим упырям, ничего и никогда не будет забыто!!!


Киевляне! Взываю к вашей совести и чести! В ваших руках то, что осталось от Украины! И у вас есть последний шанс реабилитироваться перед своими славными предками! Если прямо сейчас вы не соберётесь и не выйдете на улицы и не сметёте всю эту киевскую нечисть, которую породил майдан, всю оставшуюся жизнь вас будет пожирать червь ненависти к самим себе. Подумайте, ещё не поздно!

Ivan Susaninр

А не надо им никаких шансов. Скоро придет клятый москаль и будет их резать. Насрать уже если честно, смогут они быть людьми или не смогут - сил уже нет смотреть на этот зоопарк, поймите. Будьте с теми, кому верите, но помните - фашисты будут умирать.


Зря Вы так Иван...Многие киевляне-просто бояться теперь выходить на улицу..тем более на майдан..-там теперь ЖИВУТ западенцы..-как у себя дома.

А мы-теперь в Киеве-не дома!.. И многие сидят на кухне..оплакивают страну..и погибших..а сделать ничего не могут!...попробуйте выйти на майдан-с ДРУГИМ мнением!...-сепаратист!-сразу в каталажку..и на 15 лет!

А что я могу?-пожилая одинокая женщина?! А вот почему молодые сидят тихо на попе..-не знаю! Может запуганы...может зазомбированы уже до предела...Страшно..больно..обидно! Вечная память погибшим одесситам!


jevel очень Вас понимаю потому как живу в Днепре, где сейчас главная ставка сиониста бени коломойского и сатаниста яроша,

НО, кто дал неожидаемый ни кем результат на выборах в столице фашистам? приезжие бандэровцы? Нет, куйевляне купи-продаи и офисная плесень - местные.


Нюра, спасибо за отжиг. Все в точку, недаром троллье свидорасное вперде бежит. Что делать?

1. Выиграть в гражданской войне, по максимуму уничтожив фашистов, казнив хунту, спонсоров-олигархов и журнашлюх поганых после трибунала.

2. Всех майданутых троллей, либеральную образованщину, пидоров Мухарских вычислить и на зону, для петушения, давать от 15 лет за разжигание экстремизма.

3. Даже отделившись, ЮВ может повоевать с этой быдлоокраиной, предварительно подождав пока эти мрази по максимуму пожрут друг друга.

4. Шумаков был прав, эти твари вылезли на свет божий, чтобы и погибнуть от света, пришло время очищения. И это глобальный масштаб. Мелкой окраины с 20 февраля больше нет. Поэтому говорить о "единой стране" давно нет смысла. Русские-малороссы долго запрягали, но едут быстро, уже едут. Как говорил Пушкин, еду-еду не свищу, а наеду - не спущу. Конец старого мира, начало нового, фашисты, как и 1941, подписались на смерть. А наше дело, как всегда, правое.


Необходимо добавить: все годы т.н. "йих нэзалэжности" смотрел и думал, а что же оно такое, это самое "чистое украинство". Наконец, понял: недолюди и нелюди... быдлее не найти в мире! И ещё, касаемо к одесской жути: аваковым (а самому - вовсе не славянину - гадине Авакову) просто необходимо физически уничтожить оставшихся свидетелей, дабы скрыть то, что только-только просочилось и чему никакая махровая ложь (типа "самоподжога") не станет оправданием ввиду абсолютно явного, не требующего доказательств (стОит лишь глянуть на горы истерзанных в подвале!!!) геноцида одесского мирного населения. Вот для этого и прислан очередной палач Иван Катеринчук + новая толпа ПСов, чтобы прикрыть "зачисткой следов" участие Авакова и иже с оной нелюдью в прямом преступлении против человечества (подчеркну: не "человечности", но человечества, ибо их хозяева - США, воюющие именно против человечества - прямые виновники и затейники подобного), будь они все прокляты!

Стихи про Одессу. Юна Моритц


May 13th, 11:11 Юна Мориц

То, что случилось в Одессе, касается ВСЕХ -- То, что случилось в Одессе, Чудовищный ГРЕХ!
То, что случилось в Одессе, фашизма разврат,
Морда фашизма, фашизма пылающий ад.
То, что случилось в Одессе, не битва идей,
Это – Освенцим, где звери сжигают людей,
Это – фашистам Права Человека даны,
Это Права Человека – войскам сатаны!

То, что случилось в Одессе, касается ВСЕХ!
То, что случилось в Одессе, фашизма успех,
Это – фашизма концерт и фашизма гастроль,
Хохот фашизма, который – свободы король!
Это – свобода, в которую запад влюблён,
Запад, состряпавший этой свободы бульон.
То, что случилось в Одессе, фашистская месть,
Месть людоедов!.. Россию фашистам не съесть!

То, что случилось в Одессе, касается ВСЕХ!
В западной прессе – вранья русофобского цех:
Это – фашистам Права Человека даны,
Это Права Человека – войскам сатаны.
То, что случилось в Одессе, не битва идей,
Это – Освенцим, где звери сжигают людей.
Морда фашизма, фашизма пылающий ад –
Это касается ВСЕХ, и ни шагу назад!


Только сейчас начинают просачиваться сведения о произошедшем. В XXI веке сложно долго скрывать то, что видели сотни человек. В сети становится все больше кадров, появляются описания очевидцев. Сейчас мы знаем, что представители Евромайдана проникли в Дом профсоюзов еще до начала пожара. Один из запасных выходов был плохо закрыт и каратели ворвались в здание заполненное испуганными, растерянными людьми. Внутри началось избиение, а снаружи летели бутылки с зажигательной смесью, камни и пули. Те куликовцы, кто смог вырваться из здания, попадали в руки разъярённой толпы.

На кадрах из здания мы видим заляпанный кровью пол и стены, тела, которые перетаскивали уже после смерти. Видно, что трупы обливали сверху горючей жидкостью и поджигали. Всех без разбора, женщин, мужчин, подростков. Около 50 человек смогли укрыться на крыше, где им пришлось провести всю ночь. Милиция наблюдала за происходящим побоищем со стороны. Всех выживших арестовали и увезли на допрос. Благодаря активным действиям одесситов, часть из них удалось спасти. Именно поэтому мы можем узнать свидетельства очевидцев. Они говорят, что убитых было намного больше чем 40 человек, что фактически им пришлось выходить по телам мёртвых товарищей. Они не противоречат друг другу, не скрывают своих лиц. Хунта хотела утаить от людей произошедшее, но не вышло.

Очень показательна реакция той нелюди, которая представляет нынче Евромайдан. От простых его сторонников, до самых высоких чиновников и депутатов. Сначала они ликовали и глумились над убитыми. Затем говорили, что это были не одесситы. Когда это вранье было опровергнуто, появилась еще более вопиющая ложь о самоподжоге. На видео с места и правда видно, что происходят возгарания на верхних этажах, в кабинетах с целыми стёклами. Правда там же появляются и флаги Украины. Каратели не упускали возможности покрасоваться, на радость собравшейся внизу толпе. Беременная женщина недолго, но отчаянно звала на помощь. Однако, улица призывала убивать, и боевик задушил её шнуром.

Картина произошедшего затмевает самые жестокие преступления современности. Это просто беспрецедентная жестокость и крайняя степень озверения. И ни один из карателей не был арестован. Наоборот! Исполнителей похвалили и выплатили денежные премии за "подвиг". Ведь, согласитесь, не каждый человек способен забивать палками безоружных людей. Пострадать за это преступление должны выжившие. Именно для этого назначен новый руководитель Одесской милиции, Иван Катеринчук. Трижды прокричав "Слава Украине!", этот уроженец Ивано-Франковска, прирождённый нацист, поприветствовал толпу карателей, получивших в управление целый город. Теперь у них есть полное право на расправу, и это право будет реализовано уже в самое ближайшее время. За убитых в Доме профсоюзов кто-то должен понести ответственность, а победителей не судят. Значит виновными будут назначены выжившие, а также те, кто так или иначе был связан с протестующими сторонниками федерализации. Новая оккупация Одессы, по всей видимости, будет не менее кровавой, нежели предыдущая.

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[Dec 16, 2015] Украинский политик ПРАВДУ о трагедии в Одессе! в студии ШОК

May 4, 2014 |

Published on May 4, 2014

Standard YouTube License

Светлана Шуст

Сегодня конец сентября... Порядка 30 тысяч жертв на Донбассе... И??? У кого-то ещё есть сомнения в намерениях секты сатанистов в Киеве?

Евгений Даренский

В Одессе профессионалы работали. Мне ночью не спалось, я смотрел видео из Одессы, и внезапно понял, что там произошло на самом деле. Провокаторы со специально прикреплёнными на груди георгиевскими ленточками обстреливали с крыш майдаунов из травматики и/или пневматики, а когда последние превратились в


людей убили,лица тех кто делал коктейли молотова на видео видно четко...пухличек с пистолетом который перед кем то отчитывался тоже засветился...так вопрос почему этих людей не привлекли за убийство\пособничество в убийстве людей?или же это военные которые защищали целостность украины и по этому они смело могли убивать людей?даже в обычной драке если человека убивают того кто его убил,даже не специально,будут судить или же в европейской украине это не так?куча доказательств куча свидетелей но прошел почти год а толку ноль..ебаные хохлы мрази конченые вы своими тупыми головами когда уже начнете думать то?неужели у вас не вознимают такие вопросы?

вопросы про снайперво на майдане?вопросы про боинг про который уже все забыли наверно да?государство обезьян которые немогут думать а только как быки кидаются на все перед чем вывесят красную тряпку ваши президенто и алигархо тв 
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Александр Невский

Украинцы-нацисты! У вас один выход продолжать в том же духе психоза, до тех пор пока все не умрете! В этом случае менее мучительно для вас, ведь ничего не осознаешь Но страшно для нормальных украинцев.... А если одумаетесь, взглянете на себя со стороны, оцените свои деяния - умрете от стыда и скорби, страха от того что содеяли, медленно и мучительно! НО РАСКАЯВШИСЬ! К сожалению, большинство из вас как слабые духом и умом выберут первое - смерть в "наркотическом сне". Будьте вы прокляты, нацистское отребье, предатели и убийцы своего народа!


Поэтому, сгорела противная сторона, огнестрельное оружие им не помогло, и не один из правого сектора (сатанисты) не пострадал (УВЫ)!!! Сгорели, были изрубленны, застреленны, растерзаны в клочья только те, кто был против участников переворота в киеве

Mona Kisa

О как! Всё на Тимошонку валят!

Да эта бесноватая не в той власти сейчас, чтоб организовать акцию ТАКОГО масштаба. Однако ж как удобно Турчиновым-Парубиям-Каломойским & K° всё свалить на Тимошонку - и с себя груз ответственности снимут, и ещё спектакль скорби по погибшим покажут.

[May 04, 2015] This should never be forgotten

May 03, 2015 |
12:13 am Это нельзя забывать

[May 04, 2015] Graham Phillips' Personal Account of the Grim Day Odessans Burned

Yet, what happened on the evening of May 2nd, with reports of 42 to even over 100 of the 'pro-Russia' side burned alive by pro-Ukrainians, in the Trade Union building on Odessa's Central 'Kulikovo Pole' marked a seismic shift in the situation. One from which there was no return, nor could be. It was a day which changed the mood, the stakes, the whole landscape of a situation which quickly spilled into all-out civil war.
Apr 28, 2015 |

... ... ...

Yet, what happened on the evening of May 2nd, with reports of 42 to even over 100 of the 'pro-Russia' side burned alive by pro-Ukrainians, in the Trade Union building on Odessa's Central 'Kulikovo Pole' marked a seismic shift in the situation. One from which there was no return, nor could be. It was a day which changed the mood, the stakes, the whole landscape of a situation which quickly spilled into all-out civil war. Just a week later, another large city by the sea, Mariupol, witnessed its own tragedy, when Ukrainian forces entered the city, opening fire on civilians.

In Odessa on May 2nd, true, some peaceful pro-Ukrainians tried to assist their countrymen as they perished in a building which had been their base, their gathering
place, for months. But more looked on, chanting pro-Ukrainian songs, posing for photos even. Some of those, formerly peaceful pro-Ukrainian activists, even made, threw Molotov cocktails, with then several who managed to escape incineration by leaping from windows reported as beaten to death on the ground below. Others, shot from the ground, at least escaped the agony of death by incineration.

... ... ...

It's unforgivable. On a human level, never mind as a journalist, it's a pain which pierces my soul to think of those people, those I'd seen at demonstrations, including young girls, young men, middle-aged and older men, and women, perishing in such a barbaric way. Yet perhaps just as shocking, the true callousness of the Ukrainian government and media

On May 2nd 2014, the Ukrainian side lost some of the key things you need to be a country. Something you need to be a person. Compassion. Humanity. Heart. The year since have seen Ukrainian powers do everything to prevent a proper investigation, and then blame it on 'strong wind', an egregious mockery to those slain. Due to my being deported and banned from the country, the ongoing reign of terror against 'opposition' figures, I've not yet been able to return to Odessa to pay my tribute.

I'll be back one day, for sure, to pay my tribute to those who stood against the fascism of this new, post-Euromaidan Ukraine are as one with the city of Odessa, the city they came from, the city they died in – proud, defiant, glorious.

[May 04, 2015] Kiev and Right Sector Kristallnacht Odessa…Extreme Graphics by F. William Engdahl

06.05.2014 |

Video on the real Odessa massacre by Pravy Sektor

Links below for all photos and video

… and an Odessa eyewitness to the bestial May 2 massacre

The Kiev Coup government is incapable of investigating any of this

The Kiev Coup government is incapable of investigating any of this

[ Editors Note: This was very unpleasant work to have to do this morning, but we have always represented the dead here at VT as best we could.

The US and EU have ignored all requests to use their extensive leverage to either have Kiev reign in Right Sector, meaning disarm and disband it as a national security threat.

But the Western powers, having gotten away with using terrorist para-military proxy troops in Syria and other places, has developed a "no fear" policy for the continued use. The underlying problem is the almost blanket diplomatic immunity the politician and government perpetrators have enjoyed.

I have written here a number of times that countries all over the world need to take a new look at diplomatic immunity. One of the carrots driving the close relationship between international crime syndicates and top level political structures is protecting the nasty things they do, crimes against humanity and war crimes charges, by hiding them behind security classifications and then immunity from prosecution.

We at VT have been warning all along that if Right Sector was allowed to operate independently then it was just a matter of time before a "demonstration massacre" took place, despite the low level of violence so far in East Ukraine.

But one of our concerns has been the Western powers wanted something like this to happen to have the Russians move in so they could then say, "We told you so", and proceed with a major sanctions program. And yes, the is definitely evil enough to do something like that, and a lot more.

Hell on earth comes to Odessa

Hell on earth comes to Odessa

Most of us know that no Western government gives a hoot about the Ukrainian people. The West is there to exploit them pure and simple, exactly what we used to accuse the Soviet of doing.

While VT would not be unhappy to see the Russians move in now to provide security and round up the nationalist terrorists in Odessa…the real ones, for now it is time to put the flame thrower on the UN.

It is also time to let the citizens of the US and Europe have one last chance to scare the hell out of their various crooked government entities.

Why? Because if there is not hell to pay, politically and diplomatically by all those involved in the Ukraine escalation, then we are looking at a template that will be used against the rest of us at the time and choosing of our rouge element elites. I guarantee you that will happen.. Jim W. Dean ]


An elderly woman raped and they set afire...evidence of something more than a political dispute

An elderly woman raped and they set afire…evidence of something more than a political dispute

VT would like to thank Mr. Engdahl for these excellent example of investigation journalism. As you will read below, corporate media is keeping the two words "Right Sector" out of the coverage, revealing themselves as aiders and abettors.

A lot of heads should roll for this. The US and EU have ignored all pleas to disarm and monitor Right Sector

A lot of heads should roll for this. The US and EU have ignored all pleas to disarm and monitor Right Sector

The following video is from a woman who is a resident of Odessa and who managed to survive in the center of the horror day of May 2 when more than 40 people perished and hundreds were injured.

The extensive photo and videos taken are increasingly documenting a savage, deliberately-planned assault by members of the Ukraine Pravy Sektor armed mafia thugs, with connivance of the Ukrainian regional police and Kiev government.

What follows is a summary from a Ukrainian speaking friend who just wrote me, "In this video is a woman from Odessa who survived the horror day of 2 April. She is an important eye-witness and tells what she saw and what she heard. Here is a brief summary of her comments in the YouTube video:

Many of the dead had been shot, some through the head execution style

–The ‚pro-Russian' activists had no weapons, only sticks or bats.

– The molotov cocktails came from outside the building.

–The (pro-Kiev or anti-Russian) radicals (later identified as mainly Pravy Sektor-w.e.) stormed the Trade Union house and in a short time managed to break in.

– The woman in the video said she, along with three other women, and around twelve men, also with two dead men who were already dead (suffocated from the fire of the Molotov cocktails and the smoke), were in another room. The men had brought the two dead men to the women for first aid but it was too late…. They then managed to blockade the entry to their room with cabinets and boxes and managed to hold the door for about 15 minutes.

–In this time all 16 barricaded people heard shots in the hallway.

–Then someone banged on the door and pleaded they let them get out of the hall. They said they were also pro-autonomy (i.e. anti-Kiev) activists.

–After a brief reflection and discussion the men inside the room wanted to move the cabinets blocking the door, leaving only a small crack of the door open, to see what the situation was. Then the young thugs (they had lied) began immediately to shoot through the tiny door opening into the room where the 16 were.

–The woman (in the video) looked one of the thugs in the eye. He wore a black mask and, laughing, shot her with his pistol, but thank God, missing, and then shouted to his buddies, "I killed a Koloradin!", slang for those seeking federal autonomy for the regional provinces.

Bodies everywhere

Bodies everywhere

-Then the thugs threw maybe 4 aerosol ballons with some sort of gas, into our room and 2-3 minutes later after the gas affected our men, they managed to break open the door and enter our room.

–And then immediately they shot all the men; and those who still were alive they beat to death with hard bats. This with their words, "Let's save the bullets and kill them so…" These beasts also beat the two dead men, despite the fact the women creid out that they were already dead…

–Then the thugs discussed that they wanted to bring the dead into the cellar.

-The four women begged them for mercy…and this woman (in the video-w.e.) told them that she had a small child and so…

- The four women were taken into the hallway and there was a real Hell. Many dead bodies lay everywhere, even on the stairway. Many of the terrorist thugs with dirty jokes, dragged the dead together, to be thrown in to the cellar.

-Then the thugs grabbed one of the four women and shoved her somewhere. The witness (in the video) only heard her screams…then no more from the woman.

A young woman and man...unarmed, as all the others were

A young woman and man…unarmed, as all the others were

-The woman (in the video) was then interrogated for about fifteen minutes. The terrorist thugs demanded that she tell them the truth that she was a Russian. But she had a Ukrainian passport with her residence listed in Odessa.

-In the midst of all the chaos, she managed to flee the house where by then firemen and police stood. The firemen came after one hour twenty minutes, even though a fire station was directly across the street from the trade union house. They claimed they had been blocked from acting by the terrorist thugs.

All Ukrainian politicians in Kiev had praise for the massacre of the innocent civilians. And the terrorist thugs got bonus money.

In the basement of the house afterwards, many more dead bodies were found. Many others simply vanished.

Those who had been taken to hospitals soon fled from their beds because the Ukraine SBU security police were siezing all personal data from them in order later to get further revenge."


The suspected killer of the pregnant woman is on the left

The suspected killer of the pregnant woman is on the left

The video in Ukrainian:

And here is a second video from another source in English with a similar reportage.

As of latest reports from journalists the woman in the Odessa video has since been threatened and is urgently seeking to get asylum outside Ukraine.

Only the start…

Protesters camp was burned to drive them into the building where Right Sector was waiting for them

The protester camp was burned to drive them into the building where Right Sector was waiting for them

With full backing from Washington at the moment, the Pravy Sektor apparently feels it has carte blanche to wage their terror and criminal beastiality.

The latest Tweet reports from RT eyewitness peace-correspondent, Irina Galushko, who reports from Odessa, say that Ivan Katerinchuk–the name of new regional police chief whom some say was instrumental in Friday's clashes–told the Pravy Sektor (Right Sector) terrorist thugs in Odessa afterwards that he had also been on the Maidan Square (Where Right Sector controlled the protest sites with extreme violence-w.e.), and that he "hopes the Right Sector will be helpful and diligent (sic)." He opened his initial speech to the public with a traditional Pravy Sektor chant, "glory to heroes." The crowd answers with traditional "death to enemies."[1]

On being named the new regional Police head, Katerinchuk immediately declared that "separatism is illegal, unlawful, so is its propaganda," to the cheers of thugs from Right Sector.[2]

Eyewitness reports further say that thousands of such Right Sector thugs and other neo-nazis are streaming into eastern Ukraine and Odessa regions. The stage is being set for a full-scale civil war in eastern Ukraine between some ten million Russian-speaking citizens and the rest of the country.

The mainstream western media to date is stone silent on the role of the Pravy Sektor criminals in the events. God forbid if this insanity is allowed to spread further, as it will likely at some point draw Putin in and then Victoria Nuland, Susan Rice, Samantha Power and CIA head John Brennan have their world war slaughter they devoutly crave.

Editing: Jim W. Dean

[May 04, 2015] How the thugs killed Odessa inhabitants in the Trade Unions House - the details of bloody scenario

Many photos and Video clips.

It's clear that the number of casualties in the Trade Unions House is far greater. Provocateurs captivated people into the building where it was possible to kill them with impunity, with great relish, and without witnesses. Fire inside the building was directed in order to hide mass murdering of Ukrainian citizens.

Firstly, the tents on the square were set on fire which resulted in appearance of large open fire areas close to the building. People were captivated to hide behind massive doors of the Trade Unions House. Federalism supporters had no Molotov's cocktails prepared in advance. From where has fire inside the building appeared?

People behind the doors of the ground floor have been attacked by the Right Sector thugs who got in there long before the execution has begun. Those people were burned to the bones, first at main entrance…

…Then at rest of them.

[May 03, 2015] Очевидец о произошедшем в Одессе 2 мая

Ополченец Пекарь родом из Одессы. Он участвовал в куликовском движении с самого начала. Был свидетелем зверств бандеровцев в Одессе 2 мая 2014 года. Сейчас он воюет против бандеровцев в составе шахтерской дивизии.

[May 03, 2015] "...Я никогда не пойму тех отбросов ашкеназского народа..."

May 3rd, 15:13

Оригинал взят у arguendi в "...Я никогда не пойму тех отбросов ашкеназского народа..."

Не раз уже писал, что считаю выродками тех либеральных российских евреев, которые сегодня дружно скачут во славу нацii и смерть ворогам. Потому что они предали национальную память своего народа - все эти альбацы, рубинштейны и прочий мусор человеческий.

Но лучше всего на данную тему мог сказать только еврей. И Амирам сделал это в своей превосходной манере:

The Odessa file What happened on May 2, 2014 News

DW.DE 02.05.2015

A provisional memorial in front of the Trade Unions House recalls the victims. There are photos, flowers, wreaths, and candles. "It is a heavy trauma," says Sergey Dibrov, journalist and witness. His Odessa, known for tolerance and high spirits, has never experienced anything like it. "It goes against the traditions of the city," says the 42-year-old. "Problems are solved peacefully here." Dibrov is a member of the "May 2 Group," a collection of journalists, experts, and activists from both sides who have conducted an independent investigation of the events. Shortly before the anniversary of the events, the group presented its findings: the tragedy in Odessa was the result of an act of provocation that spun out of control.

However, one of the most important questions that Sergey Dibrov and his colleagues failed to find an answer to was: why didn't the police do anything? "They were scared to take on the responsibility," is his attempt at an explanation. Police and ambulance corps were in a "disastrous state" at the time. Yet, many in Odessa find it difficult to believe that the whole situation was simply a chain of events.

[May 03, 2015] Ukraine SITREP May 2nd, by Duff

May 02, 2015 | The Vineyard of the Saker
21 Comments SITREPs Duff


On the anniversary of the tragedy on May 2 Odessa left without mobile signal

В день годовщины трагедии 2 мая Одессу оставят без мобильной связи

US armored vehicles in the center of Odessa

US armored vehicles, which were pompously a few weeks ago, welcomed at the Kiev airport by Petro Poroshenko, are deployed in the center of Odessa to intimidate the local population on the eve of the anniversary of the tragedy on 2nd of May.
Ukraine Deports Italian Journalist for Odessa Massacre Truth

[May 03, 2015] Obama's Triple Crown


Luis • 12 days ago

President Vladimir Putin is right when he said that anything the United States touches turns into Libya or Iraq. I believed that it is the warmongers and some religious fanatics special interest neo-conservatives and some liberal groups that are behind all of this chaos. Besides Libya and Iraq we also have Ukraine, Syria and now Yemen ( there are others). If these wackos have their way, I am sure Iran is in their horizon.

[May 03, 2015] Militia-Deputy Igor Mosiychuk Congratulated Ukraine on the Anniversary of the Murders at the Trade Union House

May 3, 2015 | Fort Russ

Militia-Deputy Igor Mosiychuk "Congratulated" Ukraine on the Anniversary of the Murders at the Trade Union House

May 3rd, 2015

- adapted from Novorosinform by Joaquin Flores -

All truly civilized people remember the tragedy of the May 2nd Odessa massacre, the burning and murder of concerned citizens of the city, in the House of Trade Unions. In the meantime, the Nazis of "the Ukrainian authorities", its adherents and protectors. named this day "the Day of Victory over the Russian occupiers and their collaborators." For these non-humans today, this is a "holiday" that they remember and are proud of. One of the guilty participants of the murders, the soulless Igor Mosiychuk, "Deputy" of the Verkhovna Rada of Lyashko's "Radical Party", commented on the memorable day. The translation:

"May 2nd is a landmark day for Odessa, including for Ukraine as a whole. On May 2 last year, Ukrainian patriots defended Ukrainian Odessa from invaders and collaborators. Without fear for their own lives and safety, our patriots wiped evil spirits from Odessa, and affirmed the place as the southern Ukrainian outpost in the Black Sea. Then there was a war with the separatists and occupiers in the Donbass. There were victories and defeats. There was plenty of heroism and victory. But the first victory for Ukraine's fight with the ancient enemy, our Odessa patriots won in defending your city from the enemy. I Remember! I am proud! Congratulations, gentlemen! "

[May 03, 2015] If you have a few hours spare, this is where everything about the massacre is collected, listed, analysed, victims identified

kat kan, May 2, 2015 at 1:46 am

If they knew anything, they'd know the "separatists" NEVER EVER wear masks, and the Right Sector types ALWAYS wear masks.

If you have a few hours spare, this is where everything about the massacre is collected, listed, analysed, victims identified etc
check the subpages and talk pages.

In the Guardian article, the guy in the photo with the pistol is very definitely NOT a pro-Russian; but we were never able to put a name to him.

  1. Moscow Exile says:

    May 2, 2015 at 12:45 am

    With English subtitles:

    Odessa paying the high price that was necessary in order to curb the activities of Russia-backed separatist terrorists?


  2. yalensis says:

    May 2, 2015 at 4:17 am

    The Odessa fire memorial is taking place in Odessa right now (as of 14:00 Kiev time).
    I found this live feed to watch it .
    Be aware that when you click on the live feed, they make you choose an ad, and you have to watch the ad first. People are just starting to gather and make speeches…

    • yalensis says:

      May 2, 2015 at 4:20 am

      P.S. – just praying fervently that there will be no violence today.
      Otherwise, I will have watched violence that was sponsored by a Luv's diaper commercial.

      I remember, back when Gaddafi was killed, in order to watch his gruesome murder on youtube, I had to first watch an ad for Roche chocolates.
      There is something not right about that. (In addition to violence not being right, in and of itself.)


      • Pavlo Svolochenko says:

        May 2, 2015 at 4:54 am

        Violence on the memorial day itself… that would surprise me. It would risk attracting outside attention, putting the massacre back in people's minds, while the Maidan regime would prefer that the whole affair be forgotten. Organisers and participants should watch their backs in the days, weeks and months after today though.

  3. Warren says:

    May 2, 2015 at 5:21 am

  4. yalensis says:

    May 2, 2015 at 6:48 am

    In Slavonic Orthographic news:
    At the entrance to the city of Donetsk, the new Separatist government modified the city sign from Ukrainian spelling to Russian.
    In the Ukrainian orthography, the town is spelled :Донецьк, with a "soft sign" letter ("m'akh'ki znak") between the letters ц (ts) and к (k). Russian spelling is Донецк, without the soft sign. In fact, in Russian dialect, the letter ц is pronounced as a hard consonant, without the tongue touching the upper palate.

    To fix this toponym to Russian spelling, the construction workers removed the letter ь and then moved the к one over, to the left.

    Passing motorists saw what the workers were doing, and honked their approval.


    • kat kan says:

      May 2, 2015 at 7:02 am

      In the image I saw, they left the soft sign character under the sign, to underscore that it had been removed. I hope they leave it there.

      • yalensis says:

        May 2, 2015 at 3:32 pm

        The trained linguist in me says that spelling doesn't matter.
        Nor does language or dialect – "what's in a name?" as Shakespeare quoth.
        But I do get why they did it. And if I were there, I would have removed the ь myself, with my own hands.
        That's what this has come to.

  5. kat kan says:

    May 2, 2015 at 10:26 am

    So far it's all gone peacefully. Starting to collect videos from all over on Memorial page on Saker

  6. Erika says:

    May 2, 2015 at 3:31 pm

    English version of the documentary "President"

    Please note, only episode 1 – 3 have been translated by VPE. There are 8 episodes to this translations by VPE. I believe VPE is translating the rest. I hope he/she is.

    episode 1:

    episode 2:

    episode 3:


  1. yalensis says:

    May 2, 2015 at 4:51 pm

    Valentina Lisitsa posted this tweet .
    Some Ukrainian psycho named Alexander Melanchenko had tweeted the following, celebrating the Odessa massacre anniversay and mocking the victims as burned meat:

    "Dear comrades. Happy Shish-kabob day! I wish you lots of fried meat and red wine. And of course the best company. Shashlyk. Wine. May."

    That isn't the newsworthy part.
    The newsworthy part is that Arsen Avakov, a paid official of Ukrainian government (Minister of Internal Affairs), saw that tweet, and gave it a "like" on his Facebook page.

    I cannot imagine even Goering or Goebbels officially and publicly celebrating the burning of people alive, as Avakov does. In fact, the Nazis took some care to conceal their crimes.

    Whereas Ukrainian government officials have descended to the level of brain-dead mad dogs, or cartoonish Hollywood serial killers who strut in the public square and boast of their own gory crimes.

[May 02, 2015] There was heroism and cruelty on both sides: the truth behind one of Ukraine's deadliest days by Howard Amos in Odessa

Such an elaborate dance around facts by despicable bottom feeders. From comments: "It is so depressing when there is far more information in the comments section than in the article itself. It seems the new editor is keen to continue the traditions of her predecessor." This is one event about which there is quite a lot of information to see how Guardian presstitutes try to bent the truth. See Odessa Massacre of May 2, 2014
May 1, 2015 | The Guardian

The emergency calls became increasingly desperate. "When are you coming? It's already burning and there are people inside," a woman told the fire brigade dispatcher. Minutes later, callers started describing how people were jumping from the upper floors. "Have you lost your minds?" one man asked, his voice breaking. "There are women and children in the building!" another man yelled. In one of the most deadly episodes in Ukraine's turbulent 2014 power transition, 48 people were killed and hundreds injured on 2 May last year in the Black Sea port of Odessa.

Street battles culminated in a fatal fire at Soviet-era building where hundreds of pro-Russia activists were barricaded in.

VengefulRevenant -> AlfredHerring 1 May 2015 17:24

The victims are the ones who were raped, shot or burned to death in the massacre.

The perpetrators are those protected by the NATO-backed regime which has failed to investigate the massacre.

The apologists are the NATO-aligned media who blame the victims or assign blame equally to the killers and the dead along the lines of, 'There was heroism and cruelty on both sides.'

normankirk -> Metronome151 1 May 2015 16:52

Well isn't it wonderful to hear a diversity of views expressed on Russian TV. When all we hear is how all media is controlled by the Kremlin

Kaiama Danram 1 May 2015 16:48

So the dead Ukrainian children and women are Kremlin goons too?
How simple your life must be to allow you to make such simplistic conclusions.

vr13vr 1 May 2015 16:46

Some nice whitewashing. Now it's fault of the victims and the heroism of the perpetrators, there hasn't been and there will be no investigation and the word massacre is no longer used. For those of you who still argue it was not a massacre but some mysterious suicide by 48 people who set themselves afire, here is footage again.

Take a look at some of the pretty revealing moments:
23 min mark - Ukrainians are entering the building, there was no resistance.
24:20. A group of Ukrainians go upstairs, there is no fire yet.
26:20 Some are coming returning. The stairs are being set on fire.
27:50 A Ukrainian is firing gun at those trying to jump from the building.

While in the building, Ukrainians were slaughtering people. And it wasn't a fight. Half of the victims were middle-aged. At least 10 of them - women.

31min - 33min - the victims who got out have their faces and hands disfigured while the rest of their bodies don't have the same injuries. That's what happens if someone splashes fuel over someone's face and light it up. There are pictures of victims with only their heads and hands burned.

33min - 35min - there were women among those trying to find safety in the building. Some of them are middle-aged. They were not fighters, as the article would imply.

36min- 37min - Ukrainians were inside the building, setting it on fire and killing those whom they could find, a young woman in this specific frame.

46min - a person was bludgeoned to death. The room doesn't have marks of fire but the blood is splattered all over the room.

48min-50min - the same story, Ukrainians were slaughtering their victims.

1h:00min - Ukrainians are entering the building again, this time from the make shift scaffolding.

Any attempt to pretend there was a fight rather than a massacre is crazy. Any suggestion that somehow people inside were setting themselves on fire is ludicrous in light of evidence that the Ukis were inside the building. And the fact that Kiev doesn't even see it as murder makes me just angry.

AbsolutelyFapulous -> PlatonKuzin 1 May 2015 16:43

Odessa as well as the most Ukraine is a Russian soil.

Donno why you are commenting here. You even don't seem to be able to read a map.

BorninUkraine -> RonBuckley 1 May 2015 16:25

In a way, you are right, it was the US (via Vicky "f… the EU" Nuland and mad John McCain) that pushed Ukraine over the cliff. As usual, the EU "leaders" (Merkel, etc) acted as US lackeys.

However, equal blame goes to stupid and thieving Ukrainian elites, under whose "leadership" the country was on the edge of that cliff to begin with.

Current Ukrainian "leaders" keep stealing everything they can, including financial and material aid from the West. What else is new?

MaoChengJi -> Goodthanx 1 May 2015 16:03

Yeah. I'm convinced that they should've sent paratroopers and take Kiev right the next day after the coup d'etat; stop this whole unholy mess right then and there. That really would've saved tens of thousands of lives - if not millions, seeing how this thing seems to escalate, leading us to a nuclear war.

Putin is a pussy, Medvedev got it right in Georgia in 2008. Well, frankly Medvedev is a pussy too. He should've taken Tbilisi, and put Saakashvili on trial.

To teach the bastards a lesson.

Instead, now we hear every day 'Russia will not fight Ukraine', 'Russia will not fight Ukraine', and the murdering Nazi bastards get bolder and bolder. What's the point of having all that military hardware if you're afraid to use it. They Yanks would've taken control of the place months ago, look at Grenada.

RonBuckley -> BorninUkraine 1 May 2015 15:52

Well said, man. Yes, Ukrainian politics have always been divisive, stupid, thievery and corrupt. That said they had neither brains nor money for a coup. So Ukraine should thank certain external powers for the deep shit it is in now.

PlatonKuzin -> puttypants 1 May 2015 15:31

Odessa as well as the most Ukraine is a Russian soil. That's the point. And the state of Ukraine is a temporary occupier of the Russian soil. So people living in Odessa don't have to go to Russian. They are right at their home. This is the state of Ukraine that has stayed on our Russian land for 23 years now. It's time for the quasi-state of Ukraine to leave.

BorninUkraine -> puttypants 1 May 2015 15:16

I was born in Lvov in Western Ukraine, I grew up in Lugansk in the East, I have friends and relatives all over, and I know exactly what is going on in Ukraine.

Ukraine in 1991 was extremely heterogenous. In the area West of Carpatian mountains people speak Hungarian, Romanian, and Rusine (a form of old Russian, spoken in Kievan Rus).

Galichina and Volynia in the West speak several dialects of Ukrainian. Many in Central Ukraine speak what is considered literary Ukrainian. In the South and East (historic Novorossia) and in Kharkov region (historic Slobozhanschina) the majority speaks "surgik", a mix of pidgin-Ukrainian and pidgin-Russian. Finally, in Crimea people speak Russian, Tatar, and very few speak Ukrainian. Crimea voted AGAINST Ukraine in 1991 referendum and got a chance to run away in 2014, when Ukraine committed suicide.

If the leaders of Ukraine had any brains and loved their country, they would have followed the example of Switzerland and Singapore, having many official languages. However, all Ukrainian rulers from day one were thieves and idiots. They made Ukrainian the only official language and pushed it everywhere, so that while you could get school education in several languages, all colleges operated only in Ukrainian, putting people who spoke other languages at a disadvantage.

That idiotic policy started this whole mess, which with a bit of US money, prodding, and now arms became a civil war. Not to mention that Galichina is the place that fought against Russia in WWI (as part of Austro-Hungarian empire, siding with Kaiser) and WWII (siding with Hitler). They supplied the troops that under Hitler's command murdered thousands of civilians in Ukraine, Poland, Belarus, and Slovakia. Bandera, Shuhevich, and veterans of Waffen SS division Galichina, who are considered heroes by current puppets in Kiev, voluntarily served Hitler.

80% of Ukrainian population hates these Bandera worshippers, so when external forces push them to power, it creates trouble. Personally I hate them for giving a bad name to everything Ukrainian.

BorninUkraine -> AbsolutelyFapulous 1 May 2015 15:10

Russia failed to send its troops to Donbass, and Ukrainian army killed thousands of civilians there, including women, children, elderly, and disabled veterans.

Or is saying things explicitly beyond your pay grade?

RonBuckley -> AbsolutelyFapulous 1 May 2015 15:06

To Odessa Kiev sent a few hundred pro-Nazi thugs - 42 died.

To Donetsk and Luhansk Kiev sent a few thousand pro-Nazi thugs plus the entire Ukrainian army - 6000 died.

Get it now?

Goodthanx -> Anette Mor 1 May 2015 15:04

For me it was the silence... You are right! Seeing what i was seeing, with no commentry to convince me either way.. How could the worlds media be so silent?

Then with MH, it was the complete opposite!! Immediately and with no investigation, MSM could not shut up about who they thought was responsible!!

Both fail the logic test miserably. But try explaining common sense to those that haven't any.

Goodthanx -> Chirographer 1 May 2015 14:48

Those protesters were Ukrainian Pro Federalists! Not one Russian amongst them!

Anette Mor -> Goodthanx 1 May 2015 14:46

Good for you. It is impossible to hide truth with current state of technology. Only not showning. Any life reporting give the footage adding facts one by one and crwating a true picture eventually. Even this rather bias article contributes to true story because the lie in it sticks out of logic for anybody we is able to think for themselves.

PlatonKuzin -> ID5868758 1 May 2015 14:42

Western media are not simply mirror images of the fascist governments they support. Acting the way they do, these media prepare the public for a future war.

Anette Mor -> vr13vr 1 May 2015 14:41

It is poinless to try to install fear in these people. Need to look at the history of people's wars in Russia. Since 17 century they were able to resist occupation and unwanted rulers by people war. There wpuld not be a win against Napoleon and Hitler without people rising and forming resistance. Same in Odessa now. Just a matter of time.

BunglyPete -> Chirographer 1 May 2015 14:35

The explanation is very simple. Right Sector had free reign to terrorise pro Russians, so he took action. Kiev choose not to punish Right Sector both then and now. He said this in the same interview you constantly reference.

Now can you explain why you think it is acceptable for Right Sector to terrorise the Donbass? If Strelkov wasnt allowed to defend them, who was?

Anette Mor -> Jeff1000 1 May 2015 14:34

Not sure why you call them pro-Russians. Odessa is multi-national city. These who were massacred are simply local people who disagreed with the violent coup which put to power by the west. Does it make them "pro-russian" and justify thier killing? Surely these who want own country to be coverned by own elected officials could not be pro- another country. If they trust Russian government care for them more then thier own coup, that only says how bad the coup rule is.

Goodthanx -> Chirographer 1 May 2015 14:24

Forget about the Russian government. The idea is justice for the victims and punishment for the perpetrators. Is it the ambition of the UN to be percieved as bias as so called Russuan investigators would be?

Kaiama -> truk10 1 May 2015 14:22

FFS there are enough links and analysis to demonstrate that pro-Kiev forces inflicted a massacre of civilians here. I don't see any pro-Ukraine links to additional information but an overwhelming deluge of links supporting the unvoiced version of events.

ID5868758 1 May 2015 14:18

Our western media have really become mirror images of the fascist governments they support. By publishing such whitewashing attempts as this, they only enable more such behavior in the future, behavior that leads to the deaths of more innocents, more civilians whose only desire is to live in freedom and peace.

Kaiama 1 May 2015 14:13

It is so depressing when there is far more information in the comments section than in the article itself. It seems the new editor is keen to continue the traditions of her predecessor.

Goodthanx -> Chirographer 1 May 2015 14:09

What kind of a teenage girl carries in their backpack petrol, empty bottles, rags and whatever else is required to make Molotov cocktails? What a coincidence... there is a group of them!!
As for Right Sector? Chartered buses transported Right Sector militia which arrived early in the day. These were the people communicating with police from the start.

MaoChengJi -> MaoChengJi 1 May 2015 13:51

Speaking of the media... I've been reading this Odessa news website: , and it has been relatively informative (as much as Ukro-sites can be, these days). And today suddenly it's gone dark: "there is no Web site at this address".

Does anyone know if it's gone for good? I really hope those who were running it are safe...

Jean-François Guilbo -> truk10 1 May 2015 13:51

So you didn't watch the video link in my comment did you?
If you just take this article for granted to know on which side the Odessa police was, you won't learn much on what happened...
Seems like the officier on the picture would have been recognised as a colonel from Odessa police, watch this link:

And from these two links, these armed guys not afraid to shoot from the crowd, could have been agents provocateur...

BorninUkraine -> IrishFred 1 May 2015 13:47

Are you saying that Bandera, Shuhevich, and veterans of Waffen SS division Galichina never existed? If so, please state it explicitly.

Are you saying all of the above did not serve Hitler voluntarily? If so, please state it explicitly.
Are you saying all of the above are not guilty of mass murder and other crimes against humanity? If so, please state it explicitly.

Are you saying that people who are murdering their opponents, politicians and journalists, are not Nazis? If so, please state it explicitly.

As to Crimea, if you knew any history, you'd know that it was illegally annexed by Ukraine in 1991. Here is history 101, not necessarily for you, but for those who actually want to know the truth.

Crimea voted AGAINST Ukraine in 1991 referendum. Ukraine illegally repealed Crimean 1992 constitution and cancelled Crimean autonomy against the wishes of Crimean population in 1994.
BTW, several Western sources recently confirmed the results of Crimean referendum of 2014.
Forbes magazine

German polling company GFK


Russia deployed its troops in Crimea, and nobody was killed there. Russia failed to send its troops to Donbass, and Ukrainian army killed thousands of civilians there, including women, children, elderly, and disabled veterans.

As many Ukrainians joke now, "Crimeans are traitors: they ran away without us".
Your next argument?

Jeff1000 -> Chirographer 1 May 2015 13:45

Don't display callous and willful ignorance and call it even-handedness. The Guardian's "credible" account offers no sources, agrees with none of the available pictorial or video evidence and is rampant apologism.

I posted videos - including raw CCTV footage of the starting of the fire, further up the page.

BunglyPete -> coffeegirl 1 May 2015 13:40

I saw that guy's post it was fantastic, very well sourced and thorough. The comments on here were a different kettle of fish entirely back then.

Jeff1000 1 May 2015 13:39

The attempt to re-package this event as some awful conglomeration of circumstances spurred on by the cruelty of fate is sickening. We reduce the death of at least 50 people down so that calling it a "massacre" becomes needlessly emotive. We casually refer to the pro-Ukrainians as "football fans" to make it seem innocent - when Ukrainian football fans known as "Ultras" are famours for 2 things: Being neo-Nazis, and being violent thugs.

Look at this video especially:

It's really very simple - candid videos at the time made it clear.

1. Pro-Russian groups were attacked by Ukrainian "ultras". They sought shelter in the Trade Union building.

2. The building was set on fire when the Ultras threw molotovs through the windows. The doors were barred.

3. People attempting to climb out of the windows were shot at, if they jumped they were beaten as they lay on the ground.

4. Ukrainian nationalists deliberately blockaded the streets to inhibit the progress of ambulances and fire engines.

5. The Police pretty much let all this happen.

It's all in the videos - just go to youtube. Helping Kiev cover its backside is despicable.


At entrance to underpass guys with baseball bats are asking passersby: "are you for Odessa or Moscow?" The right answer is Odessa. - @howardamos

From the Guardian report on May 2 2014, by Howard Amos,

"The aim is to completely clear Odessa [of pro-Russians]," said Dmitry Rogovsky, another activist from Right Sector

According to the lady that setup the May 2 Group most victims had blunt trauma, and 30 had gunshot wounds.

Ah the difference a year makes.

coffeegirl -> coffeegirl 1 May 2015 13:33

And more

coffeegirl 1 May 2015 13:30

Only a week after The Odessa Massacre an american CiFer, ex-marine, has gathered links, sieved through hours and hours of video - he, practically, has done what the journos were supposed to do, - to prove the Guardian, BBC and the rest were trying hard to whitewash the atrocity. Check his posts: Additional proof that the BBC and the mainstream Western press lied when they said both sides threw the molotov's.

I looked for 5 hours searching for one video that showed anyone in the building throwing a molotov cocktail as the BBC first reported and the rest of the MSM went along with. I could not find a single one. They claimed a person named Sergei (what are the odds of that) told them a person threw the molotov inside the building and didn't realize the window was closed. This is absolutely ludicrous and an example of the pathetic reporting that passes for "news" these days.

I did find the video of the third floor fire starting. It is at the following link and runs consecutively. You'll notice at exactly the 2 minute mark the camera zooms in on the window where the fire begins. You'll also notice that at the 2:02 mark you see an additional molotov cocktail just miss the window. This is strong evidence that the window was being targeted by individuals on the ground. Prior to this fire starting there is no other fire on the third floor, therefore this is most likely the cause of the third floor fire and lends credence to the fact that the violent youth below burned those people alive.

Here's a link to the BBC article that quotes a random guy named Sergei and provides no evidence whatsoever to back up their story .

MaoChengJi -> Jeff1000 1 May 2015 13:24

And not just "Russian state-owned media" - also most of the Russian privately owned media, and most of the world media (and even some of the western media).

I believe I saw a chinadaily calling it Kristallnacht.

Jeff1000 1 May 2015 13:16

Russian state-owned media characterised the day's events as a "massacre" planned by "fascists" in Kiev, a narrative that has gained widespread traction.

Mostly because it's a pretty fitting description of what happened.

John Smith -> truk10 1 May 2015 13:15

No, there are no nazis in Ukraine. All Kremlin lies.

Goodthanx -> truk10 1 May 2015 13:11

Its not hard truk. Those red armbands that the so called pro Russian provocatores wore? Are actually the same red armbands Right sector militia was wearing during the most violent Maidan clashes. You can identify some of the same protagonists wearing the same armband in both Odesaa and Maidan!

vr13vr -> truk10 1 May 2015 13:07

Idiot. Nobody is laughing. Especially when 50 people died. Look at this video and see how Ukrainians entered the supposedly "heavily defended" building. You will see them operating inside, you will see them existing the building after it started burning from inside.

Look at 23 min mark - they are entering the building with no resistance.
24:20. A group of Ukrainians go upstairs, there is no fire yet.
26:20 Some are coming returning. The stairs are being set on fire.
27:50 A Ukrainian is firing gun at those trying to jump from the building.

Yes, Ukrainians overrun the building, including the roof. The photographs suggest that people in the building where set afire while still alive.

You must be an idiot to say someone is laughing at this.

castorsia -> truk10 1 May 2015 13:02

No. They burned them. Check the photographic evidence.

PlatonKuzin -> vr13vr 1 May 2015 12:58

Armored vehicles and special riot forces were brought today in Odessa to prevent possible unrest there.

WHYNOPASSWORD12 -> Havingalavrov 1 May 2015 12:56

Plenty of witnesses point out that these were pro-ukraine provacateurs sent up to stir up trouble. They are wearing the same red armbands worn by a group who started the skirmishes earlier in the town centre. They were part of the group bussed-in under the guise of football supporters.

MaoChengJi -> truk10 1 May 2015 12:55

Hi turk10,
I understand your confusion. Luckily, Mr. Christof Lehmann investigated it all for you. Seek and ye shall find. Use google.

vr13vr 1 May 2015 12:50

Sure, Kiev views burning alive almost 50 people as a "victory." They even allowed to install fear in the city. Since then the city is totally subdued, people would be afraid to even discuss the events or think of any peaceful opposition as they are aware of the potential response from Kiev's supporters.

Nice job Guardian trying to whitewash the events and justify the cold blooded murder by some street fights elsewhere in the city, events that were taking place all over the country those days.

Jeremn -> oleteo 1 May 2015 12:40

No greater cynics than western politicians, who certainly don't mourn this heavenly half-hundred, or come to lay flowers at the scene of their death.

No greater cynic than the Czech envoy, Bartuska, who said:

"Groups of civilians - including men, women and children - seize government buildings. Within two days they get arms and after that women and children disappear, leaving only the armed men. If they [independence supporters] are quickly resisted, as it was done in Odessa where they were simply burned to death, or Dnepropetrovsk, where they were simply killed and buried by the side of the road, everything will be calm. If this is not done, then there will be war. That's all."

ID5868758 1 May 2015 12:18

Another despicable attempt to paint a false equivalency, to assign blame for this massacre, for their own deaths, on those who perished. Take the Molotov cocktail throwing, for instance. I watched the videos of those Molotov cocktails being made, pretty little pro-Ukrainian girls sitting on the ground with their assembly line all set up, smiling as they made those instruments of death and handed them out, now just where did those supplies come from, who thought to bring bottles and rags and fuel to an event if it was innocent in nature?

And where would those innocent victims chased inside the building get Molotov cocktails to throw from inside the building, when they were interested only in escaping the smoke and flames, saving their own lives? The narrative doesn't match the evidence, but neither does it pass the smell test, pretty SOP for western media reporting on Ukraine.

StillHaveLinkYouHate -> MaoChengJi 1 May 2015 11:56

The difference is that Nazis want to murder people for the accident of how they were born. Extreme natinalists will want to murder anybody who does not behave in the perverted way they feel a patriot should.

That is the difference. Praviy sektor are nazis, incidentally.

MaoChengJi 1 May 2015 11:55

Here's another opinion:

It makes the point already made below in this comment thread:

I invite people to imagine how the British media would have reported this massacre if roles had been reversed and if it had been Maidan supporters who were burnt alive in the Trade Union building with an anti Maidan crowd filmed throwing Molotov cocktails into the building whilst baying for blood outside.


GreatCthulhu -> Metronome151 1 May 2015 11:45

Many of them not locals.

I thought the article was pretty clear that everyone on both sides were local. I speak, of course s an Irish man who doesn't regard hating Russians/ people who identify with Russia who aren't Russians but live nearby as a default position before beginning any debate.

There are a small minority of Irish people, living in the Republic (I am not referring to the northern Unionist Community here), who identify with Britain often to the point that they express regret that Ireland ever left the UK. I don't agree with them, but I would not set them on fire in a building. For that matter, it is ARGUABLE (I am not saying whether that argument is right or wrong- just that you could put forward the thesis) that the N.I state-let is something of an Irish Donbass. No justification for Ireland shelling the crap out of it though... at all... that sort of stuff is kind of regarded as savagery here these days.

MaoChengJi -> truk10 1 May 2015 11:43

Hi turk10,
what's wrong with calling them 'nazis'? The guardian piece identifies them as "extreme nationalists", and isn't it the same thing as 'neo-nazis' or 'nazis'?

Is there some nuance I'm missing here? What would you call them?

BorninUkraine -> truk10 1 May 2015 11:38

So you object to calling a spade a spade? Typical pro-US position in Ukrainian crisis. What do you call the insignia of, for example, Azov battalion (see here ). If that's not Nazi insignia, I don't know what is.
I am simply saying that those who organized Odessa massacre, then Mariupol massacre, then fueled the war in Donbass, including Poroshenko, Turchinov, Yats, etc, are Nazis.

The simple reason for that conclusion is, as the saying goes, "if it looks like a duck, if it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, it is a duck". If you prefer Christian version of the same thing, see Mathew 7:16 "you will know them by their fruits".

To sum it up, if someone behaves like a Nazi, s/he is a Nazi. Is this clear enough?

EugeneGur 1 May 2015 11:28

A pro-Russia activist aims a pistol at supporters of the Kiev government during clashes in the streets of Odessa, 2 May 2014.

How do we know that the guy is pro-Russian? Does the picture show what he is aiming at? Does he have a sign on his forehead burned in saying "I am pro-Russian and I am going to shoot that pro-Ukrainian bastard"? No, he does not. We are expected to assume that because the caption says so - but captions to pictures aren't evidence. Anybody can put any caption to any picture, and it's been done many a time.

The head of the local pro-Ukraine Maidan self-defence group, Dmitry Gumenyuk, recalled the effect of the homemade grenades. . . they threw a grenade and it exploded under his bullet-proof vest and four nails entered his lungs," he said.

Such peaceful people - going for a nice in the park walk in bullet-proof vests. They were going to destroy that camp and not on the agreement with the activists in that camp, as Guardian states (complete BS) but violently, which they did. Even if they were attacked, what did women in the camp have to do with it?
Come on, people, even in the face of such a tragedy, is it so absolutely necessary to hush up the truth all the time?

BorninUkraine -> caliento 1 May 2015 11:24

There is a Ukrainian joke. Russians ask:
- If you believe that Russia annexed Crimea, why don't you fight for it?
- We aren't that stupid, there are Russian troops there.
- But you say there are Russian troops in Donbass?
- That's what we say, but in Crimea there really are Russian troops.

castorsia 1 May 2015 11:21

The Guardian continues to misrepresent the Odesa massacre by reporting claims by the official Ukrainian investigation and the Odesa governor created May 2 group that the deadly fire started when both sided were throwing Molotov cocktails. The videos and other evidence showing that the fire started after the Molotov cocktails and tires were thrown by the attackers are deliberately omitted.

Open question to you all: What would be in the headlines if scores of "Pro-Ukrainian activists " were being burned, hacked, mauled, shot and raperd to death by Donetsk rebels or their supporters?

BorninUkraine 1 May 2015 11:20

There are lies, there are blatant lies, and then there are reports of Western media. Sad, but true.

In this article Howard Amos pretends that he believes that both sides were to blame for the mass murder of anti-fascists by pro-Maidan thugs in Odessa on May 2, 2014. That's like saying that both the Nazis and the inmates of concentration camps were equally guilty.
This lie is so outrageous, and so far from reality, that it does not even deserve an argument. The readers who want to know the truth can do Google search using "Odessa massacre 2014" and read for themselves.

The lie that the Guardian repeats after Kyiv "government" looks even less plausible now, as Odessa massacre was followed by the massacre of civilians by Nazi thugs in Mariupol a few days later (change Odessa to Mariupol in your Google search), and the murder of thousands of civilians in Donbass, including women, children, elderly, and disabled veterans, by the Ukrainian army and Nazi battalions.

I grew up in the USSR, but I have never read a lie so obvious and outrageous in the Soviet media. Congratulations on a new low!

coffeegirl -> aussiereader4 1 May 2015 11:11

Sounds like you know little about what happened in Odessa.

The best compilation of any available material was done on May 8, 2014 by our fellow CiFer US ex-marine griffin alabama:

EugeneGur Chirographer 1 May 2015 11:10

You like to cite Strelkov, don't you, when it suits your purpose? If he is such an authority for you, why don't you cite everything he says? Among other things, he said that Maidan was not a popular uprising but a pure decoration for the coup organized by the right wing groups and funded by oligarchs together with the foreign agents? You can watch this here

greatwhitehunter caliento 1 May 2015 11:08

you would no if you followed events the idea of peace keepers was supported by Russia, the separatists and a good many other countries right from the start of the conflict . It was not however supported by the kiev government or the US. Peace keepers were offered to Ukraine right up until 4 days before the Minsk agreement.

Kiev's solution has always been a military one and still is. There belated cries for peace keepers only came after getting an a*& kicking.

kiev signed the minsk agreement which requires them to deal with the issues peace keepers would be a way out for them. Usa by their actions does not support the Minsk agreement.

Poroshenko,s idea of peace keepers was a few kiev friendly states to send weapons and troups to bolster their ranks.

An offer was made via the UN security council for a peace keeping force that included china and new zealand and poroshenko stated that ukraine didn't needed china and new Zealand's help, as it turned out they did.

EugeneGur 1 May 2015 10:54

Oh Guardian, Guardian. Both are to blame, heroism on both sides - in short, they burned themselves. We've heard that before. But then the article goes on and tells you that the movement they for some reason call "pro-Russian", although its not pro-Russia as much as it's anti-fascist, is essentially eliminated, with all leaders in jail or in exile. In contrast,

None of the pro-Ukraine activists have been put on trial

Kind of tells you what actually happened, doesn't it?

Activists from both sides admit that the port city remains divided into two approximately matched camps

No, they aren't matched. The Odessa residents are mostly anti-Maidan. The city is flooded with newcomers from the western Ukraine, and they the main supporters of Kiev. Otherwise, why would Kiev deploy half of the army to Odessa before the May holidays?

Recently Poroshenko who had the temerity to visit Odessa on the anniversary of the city' liberation from occupation was met with shouts "Fascism will not pass".

So much for "matched camps". Of course, if you put everybody of the opposing view in jail of kill them, you can sort of achieve a "match".

Elena Hodgson 1 May 2015 10:50

This was a massacre. Period.

Hanwell123 1 May 2015 10:48

Ukraine is a gangster state where if activists aren't arrested then they are shot; 6 prominent figures shot this year alone. No arrests. It's supported to the hilt by the EU who shell out enormous sums to keep it from bankruptcy.

nnedjo 1 May 2015 08:42

This is the news from the Ukraine crisis Media Center:

Odesa, April 27, 2015 – Vitaly Kozhukhar, coordinator of the Self-Defense of Odesa, Varvara Chernoivanenko, a spokesman for the Right Sector of Odesa held a briefing on the topic: "May 2 this year in Odesa. How a single headquarters of the patriotic forces preparing to hold a day of mourning for those killed in the city"...
Varvara Chernoivanenko said that for all patriots of Ukraine is important that May 2 was peaceful day. Patriotic forces create patrols that will keep order in the area of ​​Cathedral Square, which will host a memorial meeting for all those, who died on 2 May. They will make every effort to ensure peace and order. Already, the city has operational headquarters of the patriotic forces. Their representatives will stop all provocations. At the same time, according to Varvara Chernoivanenko, on their part will not be any aggression.

Thus, the "patriotic forces", which I suppose are responsible for burning people alive in the building of Trade Unions in Odessa, will now protect those who survived and who should hold the memorial service for their relatives and friends, victims of Odessa massacre. The only question is, from whom they should protect them?
I mean, this lady from the Right Sector boasts that they organized patrols of its members all over the city. Well, you can bet that in these patrols will be at least some, if not all of those who threw Molotov cocktails at the building of trade unions, and beaten with clubs or even shot at those who tried to escape from the fire. Because, as this article shows, none of them has even been charged, let alone be convicted of that crime.
So, can we then conclude that the executioners of the victims of the Odessa massacre will now provide protection to those who mourn the victims, which is a paradox of its kind.
And how these patrols of "patriotic forces" operating in reality, you can watch in this video, which was filmed during the visit of Poroshenko in Odessa, on the day of the celebration of liberation of the city in WWII, 10 April. At the beginning of the film, the guys from "Patriotic patrol" argue with a group of anti-fascists, demanding that they reject one of their flag. And then at one point (0:31 of the video), one of these guys from patrol says:
"Didn't burn enough of you, eh?"

MaoChengJi 1 May 2015 07:45

Ah, of course: both sides are to blame, because before the massacre an extreme nationalist militant died, under circumstanced unknown (shot in self-defense, perhaps? who knows).


a pro-Ukraine member of the extreme nationalist organisation

Even nicer: 'pro-Ukraine extreme nationalist'. Pro-Ukraine? Which kind of Ukraine?

I find that one of the most misleading elements in these west-interpreted stories is "pro-Russian" and "pro-Ukrainian" labels.

The so-called "pro-Russian" side is, in fact, pro-Ukraine and anti-fascist. Here's a photo (from wikipedia) of some of the people (or their comrades) who were massacred in Odessa a year ago:

6i9vern 1 May 2015 07:43

Truth? One doesn't look for truth in the Graun - the house journal of European Post-Democracy.

The truth will occasionally slip out of one of the Post-Democrats - the Czech diplomat Vaclav Bartuska, for example:

"Groups of civilians - including men, women and children - seize government buildings. Within two days they get arms and after that women and children disappear, leaving only the armed men. If they are quickly resisted, as it was done in Odessa where they were simply burned to death, or Dnepropetrovsk, where they were simply killed and buried by the side of the road, everything will be calm. If this is not done, then there will be war. That's all."

The journos of the Graun who want to carry on attending their dinner parties and pretend to be liberal and decent folk have better sense than to state matters truthfully.

6i9vern 1 May 2015 07:43

Truth? One doesn't look for truth in the Graun - the house journal of European Post-Democracy.

The truth will occasionally slip out of one of the Post-Democrats - the Czech diplomat Vaclav Bartuska, for example:

"Groups of civilians - including men, women and children - seize government buildings. Within two days they get arms and after that women and children disappear, leaving only the armed men. If they are quickly resisted, as it was done in Odessa where they were simply burned to death, or Dnepropetrovsk, where they were simply killed and buried by the side of the road, everything will be calm. If this is not done, then there will be war. That's all."

The journos of the Graun who want to carry on attending their dinner parties and pretend to be liberal and decent folk have better sense than to state matters truthfully.

Vladimir Makarenko -> Celtiberico 1 May 2015 06:20

They took it from Odessa being a symbol of Black Sea and a while ago a Russian poet said: Chernoe More - Vor na Vore.
Black Sea - a thief by thief.

normankirk 1 May 2015 06:14

This is a shameless attempt to whitewash a massacre.There is plenty of evidence on you tube Every one has cell phones which can record events as they unfold. This is why the American police can no longer get away with murder. The European parliament held a hearing in Brussels to hear the Odessa survivors. there was a concerted effort from Maidan activists from Kiev to shut down the survivors testimony. A Europarliament deputy from the Czech republic Miroslav said "This is simply shocking. this is an evidence of fascism not being disappeared from European countries.He blamed Parubiy, co founder of far right Svoboda party and Kolomoisky, paymaster of neo nazi militia for the massacre at Odessa. All this is recorded. Ignorance can no longer be a defence

ID075732 1 May 2015 05:53

The US Holocaust Memorial Museum quotes the following, famous text by Pastor Martin Niemoller about the cowardice of intellectuals following the Nazis':

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me-and there was no one left to speak for me.

It's time for the MSM to realise that the same is happening Ukraine - for which the Odessa massacre is a warning. It's time they stopped playing intellectual games to prop up what is a fascist regime in Kiev.

BunglyPete 1 May 2015 05:48

Just in case those involved in the production of this article do read or hear of these comments.. Do you not realise we have Google and Youtube now? You can verify anything within a few keystrokes.

You do not need to rely on the evil Russian media, you can watch the eyewitness videos yourself.

I mean this seriously, if you are going to attempt to prove something then at least realise that you will need to go to more lengths to do so. In the context of the greater 'propaganda war', articles like this are nonsensical, as you merely serve to discredit yourself, and encourage people to move to alternative media sources.

If you want to discredit the Russian narrative then discredit it, don't write things that discredit your own narrative.

You don't need to bill me for this advice it comes for free.

SHappens 1 May 2015 04:30

Many allege that investigators are dragging their feet for political reasons, possibly to cover up high-level complicity.

At the beginning of the unrest, the most virulent reaction came from supporters of Ukrainian football clubs. But they were soon joined by a well-organized gang of self-defense that came in a column of about 100 people dressed in military fatigues and relatively well equipped.
Members of the Ukrainian security forces withdrew from the scene allowing the rightwing radicals to block the exits and firebomb the building forcing many to jump from open windows to the pavement below where they died on impact. The few who survived the fall were savagely beaten with clubs and chains by the nearly 300 extremist thugs who had gathered on the street.

Street fighting thugs don't typically waste their time barricading exits unless it is part of a plan, a plan to create a big-enough incident to change the narrative of what is going on in the country. None of the victims of the tragedy were armed.

This isn't the first time the US has tried to pull something like this off. In 2006, the Bush administration used a similar tactic in Iraq. That's when Samarra's Golden Dome Mosque was blown up in an effort to change the public's perception of the conflict from an armed struggle against foreign occupation into a civil war.

So who authorized the attack on Odessa's Trade Unions House? Could it be that the Ukrainian Security Services were supervised by some external mercenaries just like the Oluja blitzkrieg in Croatia back in 1995 when the Croatian National Guard was then supervised and managed by MPRI, an US SMP based in Virginia? Because in Kiev, dozens of specialists from the US CIA and FBI were advising the Ukrainian government helping Kiev end the rebellion in the east of Ukraine and set up a functioning security structure. (report, AFP).

Whatever and if ever an inquiry succeeds, fact is that the government in Kiev bears direct responsibility, and is complicit in these criminal activities for they allowed extremists and radicals to burn unarmed people alive.

warehouse_guy 1 May 2015 04:30

Tatyana Gerasimova also says the case is getting killed off in court, put that on your headline.

alpykog 1 May 2015 04:30

Nothing unusual about police, army and terrorists working together. I remember the British army in Belfast actually running joint patrols in broad daylight with Loyalist terrorists through Catholic areas and that was the tip of the iceberg. Try not to feel "holier than thou" when you read this stuff.

ID075732 1 May 2015 04:23

Rumours swirl of a higher death toll, the use of poisonous gas and the body of a pregnant woman garrotted by pro-Ukraine fanatics.

Clearly the author has not watched the footage filmed inside the building after the massacre - this was no "swirling rumour". Clearly the footage wasn't faked either. It showed may murdered victims with burns to their heads and arms with bodies and clothes unscorched, not caused by the actual fire.

Also those that have studied the many videos available of the unfolding events saw a much more an orchestrated attack on the Trade Union building with fires breaking out in rooms further away from the seat of the original fire. Also two masked figures on the roof before the fire started in the building.

Reports that the exits were blocked and a number of masked pro-Ukrainians were inside the building not just on the roof, don't figure in this report.

ploughmanlunch 1 May 2015 03:41

'While many pro-Ukraine activists helped the rescue effort, others punched, kicked and beat those who fled the burning building. "There was blood and water all over the courtyard," said Elena, who escaped via a fireman's ladder. "They were shouting 'on your knees, on your knees'."

This sums up, in my opinion, the whole sordid mess that is present Ukraine.

The majority of ordinary Ukrainians living under the authority of Kiev will broadly agree with their Government, but are civilised and are probably horrified by the violence perpetrated by both sides in the war.

Unfortunately, however, there is a significant minority of extremist Ukrainian Nationalists that readily resort to violence and intimidation and revile Russian speaking 'separatists' in the Donbas ( and elsewhere ).

Even more unfortunately, the fanatical far right have a disproportionate influence in the Kiev Parliament and even the Government; a fact conveniently overlooked by the incredibly indulgent Western powers. The present Kiev regime is blatantly anti-democratic and lacks any humanitarian concern for the desperate plight of citizens still living in Donbas, ( unpaid pensions, economic and humanitarian blockade ).

This crisis still has a long way to go, and I believe has not yet reached it's nadir. A brighter future for all the people of Ukraine will require unbiased and honest involvement of the great powers, East and West.

Geo kosmopolitenko 1 May 2015 03:22

Some spin doctors in Washington would sarcastically smile if they ever read this sadly tragic article.

Kiselev 1 May 2015 03:20

Symbol of separated Ukrainian society...
Whatever western Ukrainians told us.

[May 02, 2015] В память о сожжённых в Одессе

April 28 | maxfux
  • Оригинал взят у lasido в НДП В память о сожжённых в Одессе

    Почти год назад 2 мая 2014-го года в Одессе произошла страшная трагедия: в ходе пожара, спровоцированного сторонниками украинских властей, в одесском Доме Профсоюзов погибло 46 гражданских лиц. Часть из них сгорело заживо, часть умерло от отравления угарным газом, ещё часть – разбилась насмерть, падая из окон охваченного огнём здания. Милиция в Одессе во время столкновений в центре города и пожара в Доме профсоюзов бездействовала, а по некоторым данным - даже получила приказ отвести подразделения c места событий и не вмешиваться в происходящее. До сих пор обстоятельства той страшной трагедии не расследованы, а виновные в поджоге и массовом убийстве не понесли никакого наказания.

    Погибшие в одесском Доме Профсоюзов оказались забыты в собственной стране, от их гибели просто отмахнулись, даже не наказав их убийств, ведь они были на нашей, русской стороне. И именно поэтому день годовщины этой трагедии – день траура для нас. Мы считаем, что память их не должна забываться и 2-го мая мы собираемся почтить их память.

    2-го мая НДП проведёт всероссийскую акцию памяти в честь погибших в одесском Доме Профсоюзов. В разных регионах страны мы проведём мероприятия посвящённые этой траурной дате – где-то в формате пикетов, где-то в формате митингов или возложений цветов. Следите за новостями на наших ресурсах.

    Так же мы напоминаем, что Национально-Демократическая Партия продолжает сбор гуманитарной помощи для жителей Новороссии. Нами открыты пункты сбора гуманитарной помощи Новороссии во всех крупных городах:

    ( Collapse )

    [Apr 10, 2015] Exhumation of fascism by neoliberalism

    Apr 06, 2015 | Izvestia

    ... ... ..

    The term "fascism" was initially defined as a local phenomenon - the regime of Italian dictator Benito Mussolini. Later, the term changed its meaning and has become synonymous with Nazism (national socialism) of the Third Reich. During 1950-1990-Western political science began to call fascism any repressive regime and introduced the term "totalitarianism". This was done in order to combine Nazism and communism, those two social phenomenon were ideologically polar and has had a different social base despite using similar cruel methods.--[ I do not see much difference in enslavement via Gulag with ensavement via decration of undermench -- NNB] In one case, the the driving force was large industrialists and the middle class, in another - mostly the urban poor and part of intelligencia, especially Jewish intelligencia.

    The theory of binary totalitarianism has no serious scientific status. The term "fascism" has now been returned to its historical meaning. It is a synonym of racism and all of its varieties - crops-racism (the idea of cultural superiority), the social racism (the idea of social inequality as the nature of this division of people into masters and slaves), etc.

    Usually researchers try to distill the signs of fascism. For example, the Italian philosopher Umberto Eco counted 14. But this approach only blurs the subject. The myth of superiority is a key symptom. The rest is optional. Additional definitions are generated by the desire to "attach" to fascism more than that.

    For example, "nationalism". Normal people are proud of their nation and its culture, but do not seek to destroy other peoples. This is the difference between nationalism and Nazism.

    Or "traditionalism". If fascism were based in the traditions of the peoples, then some nations would have dwelt for centuries in the fascist state of fever. Tradition is the enemy of the "voice of blood", and there is no logic of exclusion of other people in traditions, while fascism lives this logic . Not coincidentally, he is associated with the Protestant line in Christianity and its idea of "chosen for salvation". Apart from the idea of exclusiveness, fascism is born with the spirit of renewal, the destruction of the weak and "unnecessary" for the sake of winning power, novelty and rationality. I repeat: tradition is the main enemy of fascism.

    The idea of a strong state accompanies fascism, but does not define it. The Olympics of 1936, "Olympia" by Leni Riefenstahl are symbols of a strong statehood. But Hitler's fascism was not defined by the Olympics, but by the Nuremberg racial laws, summary execution of Slavs, Jews and Gypsies, the plans of the colonization of the Eastern territories.

    Yes, the war of 1941-1945 was the war between two authoritarian States, but only from the German side it was an ethnic war. There were no intentions to carry out the genocide of "inferior Aryans" in minds of Soviet soldiers or Joseph Stalin.

    In Europe in recent decades, it was fashionable to talk about fascism as "a reaction to Bolshevism". Indeed, the growing influence of leftist ideas in Europe in the first half of the twentieth century caused activation of right-wing forces. But the roots of fascism are more ancient then Marxist and Bolshevik. Fascism arose as a justification for colonial expansion. Hitler didn't invent anything new. He just moved to the center of Europe bloody colonialist methods of the British, the French, the Spaniards, and made the destruction of people fast and technically perfect: gas chambers, mass graves. In a way fascism is application of colonial methods to the part of population of the country, internal colonization so to speak.

    The regime of the 1930-ies in Germany is the legitimate child of the European liberal capitalism. But this conclusion is seriously injures European sense of identity. That's why this statement is a strict taboo in the West --[not really, the hypothesis of intrinsic connection of fascism with European (colonial) culture are pretty common --NNB]. But the truth eventually comes out. Authors from European left now more frequently touch this connection and try to develop this hypothesis.

    Today we are witnessing a return to archaization of neoliberal society and slide of neoliberalism into "new barbarism." Hence the reasoning of the European politicians about Ukraine as an "Outpost of civilization". However, the assertion that Russia "does not meet democratic standards", those days unlikely will deceive anyone. Euphemisms is a product of distortion of the language, not political reality. This phrase marks Russia as a "defective" state, inhabited by "inferior" people - "watniks", "colorado bugs". Neo-fascist model within the framework of liberalism is often built by shifting the boundaries of tolerance. To some people tolerance applies, to other - no. The protection of the rights of one group in this case means the destruction of the rights of another.

    Political myth about the deep opposition between liberalism and Nazism have always refuted by independent historians. Today this myth is completely discredited.

    There are obvious interplay and close relationship between the two ideas - fascist and liberal - obviously. They both go back to the idea of natural selection, transferred to human society. In other words, the strongest must survive at the expense of the weakest. this doctrine is often called "Social Darwinism". Indeed, the principle of "preservation of the fittest races", transposed into social sciences, resulted in the adoption of the Nuremberg laws designed to protect the "purity of race and blood" - the "law of the citizen of the Reich" and "Law on the protection of German blood and German honor."

    The return of fascism is a symptom of a certain historical tendencies. To such radical measures economic elites resort only for the postponement of the final world crisis. But in the end it is fascism that might again bring Western societies to the wedge of collapse.

    [Apr 04, 2015] Big Brother's Liberal Friends by Henry

    The US elite does not like the message and thus is ready to kill the messenger... See Snowden interview with Katrina van den Heuvel and Stephen F Cohen at the Nation. Another interesting idea is the in the quote of Bruce Wilder: " classification as a mechanism for broadcasting information is exactly right, and a revelation, at least to me."
    October 27, 2014 | Crooked Timber

    I've an article in the new issue of The National Interest looking at various liberal critiques of Snowden and Greenwald, and finding them wanting. CT readers will have seen some of the arguments in earlier form; I think that they're stronger when they are joined together (and certainly they should be better written; it's nice to have the time to write a proper essay). I don't imagine that the various people whom I take on will be happy, but they shouldn't be; they're guilty of some quite wretched writing and thinking. More than anything else, like Corey I'm dismayed at the current low quality of mainstream liberal thinking. A politician wishes for her adversaries to be stupid, that they will make blunders. An intellectual wishes for her adversaries to be brilliant, that they will find the holes in her own arguments and oblige her to remedy them. I aspire towards the latter, not the former, but I'm not getting my wish.

    Over the last fifteen months, the columns and op-ed pages of the New York Times and the Washington Post have bulged with the compressed flatulence of commentators intent on dismissing warnings about encroachments on civil liberties. Indeed, in recent months soi-disant liberal intellectuals such as Sean Wilentz, George Packer and Michael Kinsley have employed the Edward Snowden affair to mount a fresh series of attacks. They claim that Snowden, Glenn Greenwald and those associated with them neither respect democracy nor understand political responsibility.
    These claims rest on willful misreading, quote clipping and the systematic evasion of crucial questions. Yet their problems go deeper than sloppy practice and shoddy logic.

    Rich Puchalsky 10.27.14 at 11:03 pm

    "Yet this does not disconcert much of the liberal media elite. Many writers who used to focus on bashing Bush for his transgressions now direct their energies against those who are sounding alarms about the pervasiveness of the national-security state."

    It's not just the elite. I can't wait for the Lawyers, Guns, and Money get-out-the-vote drive. We'll have to see whether the slogan is "Vote, Stupid Purity Trolls" or "The Lesser Evil Commands". Maybe just two-tone signs labeling their target voters "Dope" and "Deranged".

    Dr. Hilarius 10.27.14 at 11:44 pm

    An excellent analysis and summation.

    Any defense of the national security state requires the proponent to show, at a minimum, that the present apparatus is competent at its task. Having lived through Vietnam, the Gulf Wars, Iraq and Afghanistan (not to mention many smaller governmental adventures) I see no evidence of competence. Instead, it's repetitive failures of analysis and imagination no matter how much raw intelligence is gathered.

    Nor is there any evidence that existing oversight mechanisms function as intended. Recent revelations about the CIA spying on the Senate should be enough to dispel the idea that leakers have no role to play.

    Kinsley is particularly loathsome. His position is little more than "your betters know best" and that the state's critics are guttersnipes needing to be kicked to the curb. Kinsley doesn't need a coherent position, his goal is to be a spokesman for the better sorts, nothing more.

    Collin Street 10.27.14 at 11:53 pm

    Any defense of the national security state requires the proponent to show, at a minimum, that the present apparatus is competent at its task

    Dunning-Kruger, innit. There are actually pretty good reasons to believe that strategic intelligence-gathering is pretty much pointless (because your strategic limitations and abilities by-definition permeate your society and are thus clearly visible through open sources), so you'd expect in that case that the only people who'd support secret strategic intelligence-gathering would be people who don't have a fucking clue.

    [specifically, I suspect that secret strategic intelligence gathering is particularly attractive to people who lack the ability to discern people's motivations and ability through normal face-to-face channels and the like…

    … which is to say people with empathy problems. Which is something that crops up in other contexts and may help explain certain political tendencies intelligence agencies tend to share.]

    Thornton Hall 10.28.14 at 12:03 am

    This sentence is false and a willful distortion mixing legality and politics to elide the basic fact that the Justice Department has not prosecuted anyone who did not break the law:

    The continued efforts of U.S. prosecutors to redefine the politics of leaking so as to indict journalists as well as their sources suggest that Greenwald had every right to be worried and angry.

    Meanwhile, ever since Mark Felt blew the whistle on a psychopath and the result was the deification of Bob Woodward, the American elite has been utterly confused about the role of journalism in a democracy.

    That your essay mixes Professor Wilentz with the father of #Slatepitch, and an archetypical "even the liberal New Republic…" journalist as if they all had the same job description is part and parcel of this ongoing inability to separate the job of selling newspapers from the job of public intellectual.

    Glenn Greenwald is a "journalist" crank who is simply not in a category that overlaps with Daniel Ellsberg. Snowden is in the same category as Ellsberg, and Packer is right to note that he does not compare particularly well. But then Packer's analysis failed to explain why Snowden needed the judgment and gravitas of Ellsburg. And it was a side point in any case, because Packer's actual thesis was the sublimely stupid point that only "objective" journalism can be trusted to do leaks right.

    The other unfortunate confusion I see in the essay is the mixing of domestic and foreign policy. There is not a single thing about the New Deal that informs opinion about Edward Snowden. Nothing. What does regulating poultry production have to do with killing Iraqis? What does the Civilian Conservation Core have to do with drone strikes in Pakistan? The Four Freedom speech was a pivot from domestic to foreign policy given in 1941. Freedom from Want was the New Deal. Freedom of Speech was about the looming conflict with fascism, not domestic policy.

    Both confusions–the failure to recognize journalists as pawns selling newspapers and the failure to understand that foreign policy and liberalism do not have to be linked–result when the blind spots of the press and the academy overlap. In areas where journalists and the academy provide checks and balances to each other they tend to do well. Edward Snowden represents the apex of the overlap between academic and journalistic obsessions, and so no one is there to say: "Hey, the top freedom concerns of journalists and professors are not synonymous with freedom writ large or with liberalism.

    Daniel Nexon 10.28.14 at 12:48 am

    Liked the piece, even though we probably come down differently on some of the merits.

    I wonder if the explanation isn't simpler. A number of what you term "national security liberals" have served in government and held clearances. Many of them - and here I include myself - took seriously that obligation. And so there's a certain degree of innate discomfort with the whole business of leaks, let alone those that don't seem narrowly tailored. Wikileaks was not. Snowden's leaks included par-for-the-course foreign-intelligence gathering (and this sets aside his escape to Hong Kong and subsequent decision to accept asylum from the Russia Federation).

    I recognize that there's a larger argument that you've made about how the trans-nationalization of intelligence gathering - centered on the US - changes the moral equation for some of these considerations. I don't want to debate that claim here. The point is that you can be a civil-liberties liberal, believe that some of the disclosures have served the public interest, and still feel deeply discomforted with the cast of characters.

    Rich Puchalsky 10.28.14 at 1:07 am

    "still feel deeply discomforted with the cast of characters"

    We need better leakers - leakers who honor their promises not to reveal inside information. Leakers who don't leak.

    Not like that unsavory character, Daniel Ellsberg, who I hear had to see a psychiatrist.

    Barry 10.28.14 at 1:09 am

    " Indeed, in recent months soi-disant liberal intellectuals such as Sean Wilentz, George Packer and Michael Kinsley …"

    Kinsley is a hack who occasionally coins a good term. At 'Even the Liberal' New Republic, he was a biddable wh*re for a vile man, Peretz. At Slate, he took the same attitude, preferring snark to truth, and built it into the foundations.

    Packer is not an intellectual, either. He's a cheerleader for war who has just enough give-a-sh*t to right a book explaining the problems, long after it was clear to others that things had failed.

    I don't know much about Sean Wilentz, except that he's a long time 'cultural editor' at 'Even the Liberal' New Republic under Peretz, which is a strike against him. Heck, it's two strikes.

    BTW, after Watergate, the press did know its role in democracy – the elites are really against it. IIRC, Whatshername the owner of the WaPo actually praised 'responsible journalism' not too long afterwards.

    Sev 10.28.14 at 1:58 am

    #4 From a different era, the NYT story on use of Nazis by US spy agencies:

    "In Connecticut, the C.I.A. used an ex-Nazi guard to study Soviet-bloc postage stamps for hidden meanings."

    A certain skepticism, at least, than and now, seem fully justified.

    Matt 10.28.14 at 2:48 am

    I don't think that even the most transparent, democratic, public decision making process among American citizens can legitimately decide that German or Indian citizens cannot have privacy. If in Bizarro World that makes me illiberal, then I will be illiberal.

    Losing the capability to conduct mass electronic surveillance is akin to losing the capability to make nerve gas or weaponized anthrax spores. It's a good thing no matter who loses the capability, or how loudly hawks cry about the looming Atrocity Gap with rival powers. It would be a better world if Russia and China also suffered massive, embarrassing leaks about their surveillance systems akin to the Snowden leaks. But a world where there's only embarrassing leaks about the USA and allies is better than a world with no leaks at all. Better yet, the same technical and legal adaptations that can make spying by the USA more difficult will also make Americans safer against spying efforts originating from China and Russia. It's upsides all the way down.

    John Quiggin 10.28.14 at 2:57 am

    ""I can see C as justified but not decamping to Hong Kong and Russia.""

    Again, given the fact that the "right" people are immune from prosecution for any crimes they commit in the course of politics (other than sexual indiscretations and individual, as opposed to corporate, financial wrongdoing) this seems like a pretty hypocritical distinction. Those involved in torture, from the actual waterboarders up to Bush and Cheney, don't have to think about fleeing the US – indeed, the only (small) risk they face is in travelling to a jurisdiction where the rule of law applies to them.

    For the wrong people on the other hand, there are no reliable legal protections at all. On recent precedent they could be declared "enemy combatants", held incommunicado, tortured and, at least arguably, executed by military courts. This would require a reversal of stated policy by the Obama Administration, but that's a pretty weak barrier.

    bad Jim 10.28.14 at 4:31 am

    It's far from clear that the massive expansion of surveillance has actually been of any use. The West hasn't faced any strategic threats since the end of the Cold War, and even the Soviet threat was almost certainly less than we feared. Someone once remarked of the intelligence-gathering efforts of that era, "It's difficult to discover the intentions of a state which doesn't know its own intentions."

    We seem to have been surprised by recent developments in the Middle East and by Russian actions in Crimea and Ukraine; more to the point, it's not necessarily clear how we can or should respond. It may be that the massive apparatus in place is unable to acquire the information we desire. It's not clear that better information would actually be useful.

    dsquared 10.28.14 at 4:53 am

    I always thought it would be instructive to compare the views of the "national security liberals" with a test case. What, for example, do they have to say about the other North American government which operates a grisly system of unregulated political prisons in the island of Cuba, but tries to portray itself as progressive because of its (admittedly excellent) record of providing healthcare to the poor?

    William Timberman 10.28.14 at 5:34 am

    I think one point could be made a little more explicitly. Beginning in the late Thirties, without a great deal of serious concern for the possible consequences, the machinery of the social welfare state in the U.S., such as it was, was gradually repurposed to serve the national security state, and from 1947 or so to the present, the pace of that repurposing has rarely slackened. One can argue about how much of it was attributable to intent, and how much to circumstance, how much or how little bad faith it took to complete the conversion, but there's little doubt that it's now largely over and done with, and that the consequences are there to see for anyone who cares to look.

    George Packer may think that the national security state is a perfectly admirable creation, but if so, I'd question whether or not he's really a liberal. By any definition of liberalism I'm aware of, it's odd liberal indeed who doesn't think Edward Snowden ought to be trusted with sensitive information, but doesn't at all mind leaving it in the custody of Keith Alexander.

    maidhc 10.28.14 at 8:03 am

    The CIA produced the Pentagon Papers under orders from LBJ. They produced a document blaming everything on the stupid politicians while the CIA was always right. Unfortunately no one could read it because it was secret. Hence it was leaked to the New York Times.

    Woodward and Bernstein had intelligence backgrounds. The Washington Post was known to have close CIA ties. Everyone involved in Watergate was tied to the CIA and the Bay of Pigs. Nixon was taken down from the right.

    If you look at those Cold War days, almost everything that was considered to be highly secret, the world would have been better off if it had been public knowledge. Major policy decisions on both sides were based on false information provided by intelligence services.

    That is not to say that things that happened back in those days are unimportant now. The career of Stepan Bandera, for example, is tied in very closely with today's headlines.

    J Thomas 10.28.14 at 8:43 am

    #12 Watson Ladd

    I can easily imagine bribing Putin's butler to be an easy and effective way to get good information on both of those, and I can imagine that doing so openly would be catastrophic.

    Whyever would you expect Putin's butler to know either of those?

    But I find this plausible - Putin's butler goes to the secret police and tells them he's had an offer. They say "OK, take the money and tell them this:" and they give him a cover story to tell the spies.

    Continuing the story, a top general's batman does the same thing, but the secret police do not coordinate well enough and he gets a different cover story.

    Another top general's mistress does it and gets a third cover story to tell. The stories do not add up at all.

    So then somebody in the CIA looks at all the conflicting data, and MAKES UP a story which makes sense, concentrating on estimates of capabilities, and estimates about what choices are likely based on internal politics etc.

    The report reaches various people in the military with a need-to-know, who discount it and who make their mostly-mundane decisions about preparation on the basis of path-of-least-resistance. The report may even reach the President, who also discounts it.

    Furthermore, plenty of information that isn't strategic in nature can be very useful. Knowing that in event of war, your fighter planes can outmatch theirs, is useful.

    How would you find that out, except by testing it for real with their real pilots with real training, etc? Base it on the performance claims by US manufacturers versus the potential enemy's manufacturing claims?

    So is knowing that they are planning to invade a country, or are actively collaborating with terrorist organizations.

    The USA makes plans to invade other countries *all the time*. Often we publicly threaten to invade them for a year or more ahead of time, while we slowly build up supply dumps in nearby areas. It usually isn't hard to tell whether a nation is ready to invade some particular other nation. The hard part is predicting whether or when they actually do it. Chances are, they don't know themselves and nobody in the world can accurately predict that until shortly before it happens.

    The USA and Israel actively cooperate with terrorist organizations *all the time*. It doesn't mean that much. Except we can use it for propaganda. "Our enemies actively collaborate with terrorist organizations! Our secret intelligence organizations have proof, but we can't show it to you because that would compromise our sources. Trust us."

    Very little of this is likely to be reported openly, particularly from dictatorships.

    Or from the USA. Or from anybody, really. We all like our surprises.

    J Thomas 10.28.14 at 8:57 am

    #19 Daniel Nexon

    As I suggested above, albeit perhaps opaquely, it is perfectly possible to say "I can see C as potentially justified, but not D… G" and to say "I can see C as justified but not decamping to Hong Kong and Russia."* These strike me as categorically distinct arguments from "Snowden, Greenwald, and Assange aren't the 'right sort of people," even if those advancing that claim invoke some of the same warrants.

    I don't understand this sort of claim. Normally, US citizens have basicly no information about what our expensive secret-creating organizations do. The basic argument is "Trust us. We're doing good, but it would be catastrophic if you knew.".

    Now we have a more-or-less-random samples from Snowden and Manning. So my questions about their personal character center around two themes:

    1. Did they release false data, created by the US government to make cover stories to hide the real stuff that the US government does not want us to know?

    2. Did they release false data, created by some foreign government and intended to discredit the US government?

    3. Are there important discrepancies between them, that might indicate that at least one of them was doctored?

    Apart from those, why are we talking about Snowden or Manning or Greenwald, instead of what we've found out about our government?

    Barry 10.28.14 at 12:04 pm

    Tony Lynch 10.28.14 at 4:30 am

    "The persoanl animosity towards GG from, presumably, people with no personal relationship to GG, is weird. Whence this incessant personalism – not only from Kinsley et. al., but from those who claim more genuine liberal and left convictions? Why does it seem important to approach things by venting this personal animosity?"

    Here are my thoughts:

    1). Most of these elite journalists are leakers of classified information, and guilty of serious felonies. However, they are lapdogs of the establishment, and comparable more to Pravda than a free press. They don't like unauthorized leaks.

    2). All three liberals mentioned eat a lot of right-wing sh*t, for actual liberals. Again, they are lapdogs, who occasionally criticize, but in a limited fashion. Heck, Kinsley played Buchanon's poodle on TV show. They therefore don't like people who actually oppose the establishment, moreso because it shows them up as the frauds that they are.

    lvlld 10.28.14 at 1:17 pm


    Not quite.

    MacNamara (politician) ordered his staff (Office of the Secretary of Defense) to carry out the study (they got some material from the CIA and State), out of a concern that the whole thing might be a huge mistake on the part of US policymakers – politicians and otherwise – from World World 2 on down. That was July, 1967. He resigned a few months later, the report was completed in late 1968.

    Dan Ellsberg (Rand, ex-OSD) was involved in producing it, and was dismayed by the scale of the official deceptions and thought that yes, this was probably material in the public interest. He leaked it to the Times and the Post, the latter of which's decision to publish on June 18, 1971 was not made in consultation with its city beat reporters, Carl Bernstein and Bob Woodward.

    Thornton Hall 10.28.14 at 2:15 pm

    So the following points are uncontroverted:

    J Thomas 10.28.14 at 2:16 pm

    #13 Andrew F

    He claimed that the CIA might hire Chinese gangsters to murder him, or journalists associated with him, among other things. So to say that he has a "teenager's conspiratorial view of the world" is not to speak without some justification.

    This minor point deserves some thought.

    Do you have more access to CIA secrets than Snowden did?

    If not, why do you believe that your understanding of what the CIA might do is better informed than his was?

    Layman 10.28.14 at 2:23 pm

    "I think it is perfectly fair to judge Snowden based on the totality of his actions. Isn't that how we're supposed to judge people? "

    Why judge him at all, in the context of discussing his revelations and what they mean for civil liberties? It's perfectly clear that some people choose to judge Snowden in order to dismiss those revelations. Isn't that the point of the OP? Do you agree that your personal distaste for Snowden is irrelevant to the larger question? And that people who seek to distract from that larger question by focusing on Snowden's character are engaged in hackery?

    Bruce Wilder 10.28.14 at 3:51 pm

    Dan Nexon @ 47

    The apparatus of surveillance and the system of classification are both parts of a vast system of secrecy - aspects of the architecture of the secret state, the deep state.

    I've had a security clearance, and so have some personal acquaintance with the system of classification and what is classified, why it is classified and so on, as well as experience with the effect classification has on people, their behavior and administration. I see people sometimes elaborate the claim that, of course the state must have the capacity to keep some information confidential, which is undoubtedly true, but sidesteps the central issue, which is, what does the system of classification do? what does the secrecy of the deep state do? What is the function of the system of classification?

    From my personal acquaintance, I do not think it can be said that its function is to keep secrets. Real secrets are rarely classified. Information is classified so that it can be communicated, and in the present system operated by the U.S. military and intelligence establishment, broadcast. I suppose, without knowing as an historic fact, that the system of classification originated during WWII as a means to distribute information on a need-to-know basis, but that's not what goes on now. The compartmentalization that the term, classification, implies, is largely absent. That Manning or Snowden could obtain and release the sheer volume of documents that they did - not the particular content of any of them - is the first and capital revelation concerning what the system is, and is not. The system is not keeping confidential information confidential, nor is it keeping secrets; it is broadcasting information.

    The very idea that a system that broadcasts information in a way that allows someone at the level of a Manning or Snowden to accumulate vast numbers of documents has kept any secrets from the secret services of China or Russia is, on its face, absurd. The system revealed by the simple fact of the nature of Snowden's and Manning's breaches is not capable of keeping secrets. Snowden was a contractor at a peripheral location, Manning a soldier of very low rank.

    Rich Puchalsky 10.28.14 at 3:57 pm

    This comment thread is just as disgusting as the comment threads elsewhere, so I'll direct people to what I think is one of the best articles on all this: Bruce Sterling's.
    William Timberman 10.28.14 at 4:00 pm

    Bruce Wilder @ 72

    Fox News for apparatchiks. Brilliant, especially since not even Keith Alexander in his specially-equipped war room had any idea how many apparatchiks there were, nor where they were, nor what they were up to when his panopticon was looking the other way.

    Bruce Wilder 10.28.14 at 4:02 pm

    Rich Puchalsky : If only the government could tell us the real story! Then we'd know that they aren't lying.

    The system of classification is a system of censorship. It creates a system of privileged access to information that permits highly-placed officials to strategically leak information as a means to manipulate the political system.

    It doesn't keep secrets from the enemies of democracy abroad; it creates enemies of democracy at home, placing them in the highest reaches of government.

    J Thomas 10.28.14 at 4:14 pm

    357 Layman

    "I think it is perfectly fair to judge Snowden based on the totality of his actions. Isn't that how we're supposed to judge people? "

    Why judge him at all, in the context of discussing his revelations and what they mean for civil liberties?

    Judging Snowden is a very serious matter for everybody who has a security clearance.

    If you have a clearance, then you have to consider whether or not you ought to do the same thing. On the one hand you swore an oath not to. You would be breaking your word. And you can expect to be punished severely.

    On the other hand, there are the things you know about, that have destroyed American democracy. Do you have an obligation to the public? But then, you probably know that it's already too late and nothing can be done.

    What should you do? In that context, deciding just how wrong Snowden was, is vitally important.

    It's perfectly clear that some people choose to judge Snowden in order to dismiss those revelations.

    Well sure, of course. If it's their job to patch things up, they have to use whatever handle is available.

    But apart from the hacks, every single honest person who has a security clearance has to somehow find a way to justify that he has not done what Snowden did. If Snowden did it incompetently, he might have an obligation to do it better. Or maybe his obligation instead is to the power structure and not to the people.

    Likely by now there is better technology in place to catch people who try to reveal secrets. We can't know how many people have tried to reveal secrets since Snowden, who have failed and disappeared.

    Layman 10.28.14 at 4:15 pm

    Bruce Wilder @ 72

    Bravo! This view of classification as a mechanism for broadcasting information is exactly right, and a revelation, at least to me.

    [Apr 03, 2015] Смертельный бой "Антимайдана"
    "СП": - Как начинался "Антимайдан" в Одессе?

    - Для нас "Антимайдан" начался еще в конце 2013-го года. Лидер одесской "Боротьбы" Алексей Албу был тогда депутатом облсовета, и руководитель фракции Партии регионов попросил его поучаствовать в защите облсовета – тогда реально штурма ожидали. Конечно, регионалы нам никак не друзья, но все прекрасно понимали, что пусть лучше у власти останутся регионалы, чем придут эти…

    "СП": - А в Одессе были сторонники "Майдана"?

    - Конечно, у нас "Майдан" был с самого начала. Народу немного, в среднем несколько сотен людей крутилось возле памятника Дюку, но к ним никто всерьез не относился: дураки есть дураки, что с них взять? Никто разгонять их даже не пытался. Да и одесситов толком среди них не было.

    "СП": - А местные власти как к ним относились?

    - Местные власти немного запаниковали. Во время защиты облсовета, мы уже третьи сутки там ночевали, по телевизору передали, что Янукович предложил Яценюку стать главой правительства. Это уже серьезный звоночек был, это показывало, что другими путями он справиться с ними не может. Яценюк в итоге отказался, т.е. он тогда уже понимал, что они стопроцентно власть перевернут. Поэтому местные власти были в панике, не знали, что делать.

    "СП": - Как появилось движение "Куликово поле"?

    - Так вышло, что защита облсовета сплотила много людей из разных организаций, против которых мы сами порой выступали, то же "Славянское единство". Было принято коллективное решение: создать что-то наподобие единого совета, создать реальную народную силу сопротивления "Майдану". Сплотились все "антимайданные" силы. Зародилось движение "Куликово поле" - потому что первый митинг был проведен на Куликовом поле. Когда-то там снесли памятник Ленину, перенесли его вглубь города. А вообще это просто очень большая территория. Очень большая площадь в центре города. Когда первый митинг там проходил, там было около десяти тысяч человек. Это был просто митинг, еще не марш. До этого самый массовый митинг, который мне доводилось видеть в Одессе, провело КПУ против ущемления прав рабочих 24 января 2009- го года. Тогда вышло девятьсот человек.

    А здесь собралось около десяти тысяч человек, и с трибуны объявили, что мы отсюда никуда не уйдем и будем создавать палаточный городок. Тогда же создали народную дружину – молодые парни с битами, которые должны были защищать это Куликово поле. А 16 марта был проведен первый марш – в нем участвовало реально около двадцати-двадцати пяти тысяч человек. Все думали, что все, тут уже никакой другой власти никогда не будет.

    "СП": - Была эйфория победы?

    - Конечно. Двадцать пять тысяч человек. Одесса в жизни никогда такого не видела. Я встал в начале колонны на перекрестке, откуда колонна пошла в сторону облсовета, снимал на видео. И вот прошло минут сорок непрерывной съемки. А колонна все не заканчивалась, она прошла кварталов восемь вперед, а хвоста не было видно. Причем, процентов 90 участников не состояли ни в каких организациях. Люди спонтанно вышли на улицу, чтобы не было того, что происходит в Киеве. Тогда казалось, что какой "Майдан" в Одессе? Все, нету их больше.

    "СП": - А что произошло 2 мая?

    - За день до того, первого мая у нас была небольшая "маевочка" – мы провели марш, на котором было около четырех тысяч человек – к тому времени марши всем надоели, так как все начали понимать, что они ничего не дают. Каждые выходные мы проводили марши, сначала было двадцать пять тысяч человек, потом двадцать, потом пятнадцать. Всем надоело, что там одни только разговоры и ходьба по городу. Четыре тысячи человек первого мая – и то хорошо. Потом все по компаниям разбились и поехали отдыхать.

    Второго мая, ничего не подозревая, я часа в два пошел с сестрой в универсам "Таврия" на Дерибасовской. Заходим (там дальше уже все началось, но я еще ничего не увидел), что-то покупаем, а охранник начинает бегать, кричать, чтоб все уходили, что они закрываются…

    "СП": - А ты знал, что там съехались футбольные фанаты?

    - Я знал, просто у нас до этого каждую неделю, когда "Черноморец" с кем-то играл, были такие слухи, что все, срочная мобилизация на Куликовом поле, нас придут сносить. Естественно, мы туда бегали, но никто не приходил. Естественно, всем это надоело, и никто уже не относился к этому серьезно. Так вот, охранник выгнал нас из универсама, смотрю: стрельба, камни летят, взрывпакеты... Я сестру забрал домой, зашел в Интернет, включил онлайн трансляцию и немного обалдел, потому что никогда такого количества этих дебилов в городе не было.

    "СП": - То есть, это приезжие все были?

    - Так точно. Потому что фанаты "Черноморца", которые участвовали в марше "За единую Украину", в большинстве своем, когда увидели, что началось, сразу помахали всем ручкой и сказали: "Нам это нафиг не надо!" и пошли на футбол. Я говорю не про ультрас, а про тех, кто просто пришел на марш.

    Звоню нашему товарищу Андрею Бражевскому. Я был уверен, что он туда пошел, потому что он всегда оказывался рядом с такими "движухами". Говорю ему: "Андрей, что происходит?" Он говорит: "Так и так. Нас тут зажали, но мы пока держимся, у нас тут есть пока какие-никакие силы. Я говорю: "Давай мы попробуем к вам туда попасть!" Надо помогать товарищам – нельзя бросать. Было принято решение ехать на Куликово поле, посмотреть, что там происходит. Там люди готовились к тому, что те потом придут сюда, на Куликово..

    Приехали туда – зрелище удручающее. В тот момент там было, навскидку человек сто пятьдесят. Причем качественный состав удручал. Человек сорок молодых пацанов, человек пятьдесят женщин от тридцати до шестидесяти, ну и человек пятьдесят мужики уже в возрасте – 50-60-70 лет. Зрелище печальное, но, тем не менее, мы взяли палки в руки, сделали баррикады – в общем, приготовились обороняться. Все, конечно, понимали, что сюда придут, и мы все получим по шее, но оставить людей мы морального права не имели. Приняли решение остаться с ними, вооружать их палками, собирать камни.

    Собралось максимум двести пятьдесят - триста человек. Был еще слух, что сейчас те наши, что были на Греческой, к нам вернутся, несколько сотен к нам вернутся, а мы тут уже им и помощь собрали, и мы одной толпой дадим отпор. В итоге с Греческой вернулось ровно пятнадцать человек. Это единственные, кому удалось оттуда выбраться без милиции. Вот они вырвались толпой, добежали до Куликова, мы их встретили…

    Так вот. Нам уже звонят из центра города, говорят, они уже прошли "книжку" – книжный рынок на полпути между Куликовом и Греческой. Колонна в тысячу человек. Исключительно "фанатье". Несколько сотен с "Майдана", полностью экипированные – с огнестрелами. И половина просто с битами, с цепями. Нам говорят: они в десяти минутах ходьбы до вас, готовьтесь! Ну, мы посмотрели на свой периметр. Выходило, что у нас на один метр баррикад один человек, ну, это совсем уж несусветный бред, поэтому сузили баррикады до крыльца здания.

    "СП": - А здание вы тогда контролировали?

    - Никто не контролировал. Оно вообще пустое стояло. Не, ну работники Дома профсоюзов работали. Но второго мая вместе с охраной, с обычными вахтерами, там сидели пацаны из одесской дружины. Мы решили сбиться под здание. Естественно, женщин пытались прогнать. Очень многие обвиняют лидеров "Антимайдана" в том, что они завели людей в здание, но это ложь. Есть куча видео, снятого нами, когда депутат-регионал Вячеслав Маркин, который погиб там, выходит на трибуну с микрофоном и начинает, что ему несвойственно, матом орать на женщин, очень красноречиво посылает всех женщин с Куликова поля. А там бабушки уже ходят с щитами, каски взяли. Он говорит: "Идите отсюда! Зачем оно вам надо?! Уходите! Не мешайте нам! Нам придется не с ними драться, а бегать вас спасать".

    Но женщины у нас шибко боевые: никуда не ушли. В итоге в суматохе начали их отправлять в здание и сами забегать, потому что уже увидели эту колонну. Мы с частью людей остались на крыльце…

    "СП": - А были попытки построить реальные укрепления, ну, с точки зрения военной науки? Были среди вас спецы, кто понимал, как нужно держать оборону?

    - С точки зрения военной науки это все было ни о чем. Обороны как таковой не было. Ну, там кусочки асфальта, которые мы наковыряли за полчаса до их прихода, поддоны поломанные – так, все спонтанно.

    Был у нас один человек с опытом, военный, наш знакомый. Когда мы это все делали, он подошел и сказал: "Ребята, вы понимаете, что нам тут всем конец?! Вы же должны это понимать! Что вы делаете?" Ему говорят: "Ну, давай, предлагай что-то другое". А что там предлагать? Предлагать-то нечего. В итоге этот сильно умный военный сбежал, и черт с ним.

    Часть людей, у кого были щиты, осталась на крыльце и начала камнями обкидываться. Деревянный щит это, конечно, вещь хорошая, когда в тебя камнями кидают, но когда они начали просто расстреливать…

    "СП": - Огнестрел какой был?

    - Стволов калибра 5,45 мм точно было очень много. Это либо охотничья "Сайга", либо автомат Калашникова. Скорее всего, это были охотничьи карабины, разница с "обычным" только лишь в том, что такое оружие не может вести стрельбу очередями.

    Когда наши люди с щитами уже начали падать простреленные, мы все зашли в здание, ибо уже понимали, что нет выбора. Вот мы стоим у здания, они метров так за сорок. Мы кидаем камнями, они стоят и стреляют. Им не надо даже близко подходить.

    Когда мы зашли в здание, там была суета. На моих глазах мужик лет 60-ти стоит возле окна, смотрит. Потом раз и резко ложится – у него голова прострелена, это я лично видел, понятно, что это не камнем кинули, что выстрелом в голову убили. Таких картин было много. В какое окно не заглянешь – в него сразу либо пара пуль прилетит, либо "коктейль Молотова".

    Мы продолжали кидаться камнями, пока они не закончились. Камней было немного – кто, сколько по карманам успел распихать – все! Потом начали кидать в них куски стекол – ну, хоть что-то. Толку было мало. Ну, кинешь ты кусок стекла метров на двадцать, а он стоит в сорока метрах и стреляет в тебя.

    Потом мы забежали в одно крыло здания, там был один из выходов, одна из боковых лестниц, видимо, они туда уже проникли и распылили много "перцовки". Обычного милицейского "перца" – там дышать было невозможно, дышишь – сразу слезы текут. Мы с того крыла убежали. В это время внизу уже разгоралось…

    "СП": - А у вас было какое-то личное оружие, те же газовые баллоны, травматы?

    - Я не видел, хотя пробежал все наши "рубежи обороны". Нам реально нечем было отбиваться. Было бы у нас хотя бы два автомата Калашникова и хотя бы по сто патронов на каждый, мы хотя бы какой-то отпор дали бы – они бы просто убежали.

    "СП": - В какой момент пришло понимание, что надо выбираться?

    - Уже валил сильный дым. Я начал бегать, искать своих – Лешу Албу, Андрея Бражевского, а там суматоха, куча народу. Все куда-то бегают. В один момент депутат Слава Маркин поймал меня за руку и говорит: "Влад, не нервничай, все будет хорошо!" Я говорю: "Да я не нервничаю, все нормально!" и бегу дальше. Увидел Андрея Бражевского. А у Андрея была проблема – он очень плохо видел. Он хоть и был спортсменом, но у него зрение было очень плохое, с трех-пяти метров он тебя не узнает просто. Я ему кричу: "Андрей!" Он слышит вроде, но не видит. Смотрит-смотрит, хлоп, и побежал куда-то. Потом встречаю Лешу Албу. Он говорит, если будет пожар, наверх нет смысла бежать, потому что сверху не спрыгнешь и в любом случае либо сгоришь, либо задохнешься, давай держаться поближе к первому этажу.

    Руководствуясь этой логикой, мы поймали, кого смогли, за руку, вышли в одно из крыльев здания, спустились ко второму этажу – там окно, и вот уже метра два-три, и площадка! Стояли под этим окном, там еще куча народу была. Стояли просто дышали воздухом – повыбивали все стекла и дышали. А внизу уже стояли эти и говорили: ну, давайте выходите!

    Ну, мы думали, будем стоять, держать оборону на том этаже. Место узкое, а в узком пространстве, как известно, количество не имеет никакого значения. Так мы стояли и знали, что над нами, этажом выше тоже вроде наши, лестницы тоже нашими заняты. И вот так вот мы стоим, пока через какое-то время сверху не вылетает тело уже с украинской ленточкой, кто-то из ультрасов и говорит, типа, опа, конец вам! А рядом со мной стоит старый дедушка. Возможно, бывший военный – он был в камуфляже с саперной лопатой. Ну, дедушке уважение – он не растерялся и сходу так сильно кинул в этого дурачка. Он ему в живот попал, что тот скрутился и убежал. А у меня был в руках большой огнетушитель. Я его взял на случай контактного боя, если придется сдерживать – он не дает подойти, у него напор очень сильный. Я дал ему огнетушителем, он вскарабкался резко наверх и убежал, кинул в нас какую-то арматурину, но не в кого не попал. Потом они решили с нами заговорить.

    Говорят: "Выведите женщин, а с вами мы потом разберемся!". Мы говорим: "Хорошо, не вопрос, только дайте их вывести спокойно, без проблем". Они еще говорят: "Выводите женщин, мы их трогать не будем, мы сами местные". Мы ему: "Местный, ты с какого района?" Он: "Будешь выступать, мы вообще тебя убьем!". Просто местных правых мы всех знаем. У нас с ними уже лет пять конфликты, мы с ними постоянно дрались. В общем, их всего в Одессе пятьдесят человек, дебилов. Понятно было, что это никакие не местные.

    В общем, мы вывели женщин через окно второго этажа. Пожарный помог – поставил какую-то лестницу. Восемь женщин мы вывели, и нас семеро осталось. Четверо было молодых парней – до 35, остальным лет по 45-50. Стоим и понимаем, что сейчас они нас сверху закидают "коктейлями", надо как-то выходить. Уже было осознание, что всем конец, все через их руки будем проходить, но вариантов не было – дыму уже было очень много, дышать уже было нечем.

    Вышли, и сразу началось. Сначала подбежал пожарный, он хотел все как-то урегулировать, говорит: "Давайте, ребята, я постараюсь вас вывести!". Понятно, что у него не было шансов нас вывести, потому что подошло такое здоровенькое лысоватое мурло с револьвером в руках и говорит ему: "Свободен! Домой!". Пожарный уходит. Нам: "Руки вверх!". Но там он не один, там уже куча этих дебилов стояло.

    И вот нас выводят, и тут подбегает другое мурло с битой в одной руке, с цепочкой в другой и на меня (а я был в ярком салатовом балахоне): "Вот это тот гад, который нам из окна "факи" показывал, стекла кидал!" А я там походу стеклом попал кому-то…

    И вот нас всех, человек пятнадцать, в коридор, который милиция сделала…

    "СП": - То есть милиция там присутствовала?

    - Да, но их там было всего человек тридцать, ну, куда им вмешиваться? Война идет… На самом деле мы им благодарны за то, что они много людей оттуда вывели и спасли. Просто, если бы они рыпнулись, их бы там рядом с нами положили – они ж без оружия были. В общем, сделали нам коридор, чтобы нас вывести – тут пятнадцать милиционеров, тут пятнадцать милиционеров, а между ними около сотни этих козлов с битами, с цепями. Тут нас начали просто гасить без разбора, мы даже ничего не успели сделать. Только пытаешься прикрыть голову – сбоку прилетает цепь. Вот у меня от цепи осталось (демонстрирует). Нас просто забили, сложили в кучку и все. Потом нас снимают, какой-то придурок приносит украинский флаг, говорит мне, типа, целуй флаг! Там все лежали, один я сидел с разбитой головой. Делал вид, что оглушен, ничего не понимаю. Потом его свои же утащили, чтобы не позорился.

    Тогда время бежало немного иначе, сейчас сложно вспомнить, сколько мы там лежали в луже крови. В конце концов, уже стемнело, и нас попыталась выдернуть милиция. Есть даже видео, где мы валяемся кучкой, все вокруг ходят, кто-то смеется, кто-то плюет. Какой-то дед старый пытается взять тебя за руку, рубануть лопатой по руке. Старый дебил, его потом свои же тоже оттянули. Потом милиция подгоняет "зэчку" поближе к нам, говорят: вставайте быстро, ползите, грузитесь! Это было еще одно испытание, потому что, ладно, там я – у меня голова была разбита, но идти я мог. А с нами валялось несколько человек без сознания, забитых до полусмерти – их тащили. Те, кто мог идти, они, пока шли в эту "зэчку", по дороге получали еще от каждого палкой по голове, еще кто куда. Нас закатали в эту "зэчку", так они начали забегать, бить палками.

    В итоге, милиция нас вывезла, завезла в Малиновский райотдел, там вышел один из командиров этого райотдела, сказал: "Мужики, держитесь! Мы морально с вами, но видите, мы ничем не можем вам помочь, у нас вообще приказ всех вас тупо арестовывать. Но я в гробу видел такие приказы! Все, я вызываю "Скорую", и вы разъезжаетесь!".

    Да, милиция была за нас. Но какие у них были шансы – там личного состава около сотни человек – разогнать три тысячи уродов?! Эти тридцать-сорок человек, что были у Дома профсоюзов – они почти не вмешивались, да они и не могли бы вмешаться таким количеством. Но если бы не они, нас бы оттуда не вывезли. Нас там просто забили бы до смерти. Удар палкой по голове сам по себе не смертелен, но когда двадцать раз в одно место – это уже серьезно. В общем, мы поехали в больницы, нам позашивали головы. Дали направление на рентген, но мы уже не стали дожидаться, потому что нам уже хотелось спрятаться дома, прийти в себя, понять, что происходит…

    "СП": - На твой взгляд, что стало причиной смерти большинства погибших в Доме профсоюзов? На эту тему было много спекуляций, что уже мертвые тела поджигали…

    - Я не могу однозначно ответить. Да, там было несколько тел, по которым было видно, что их палили, но это нормально было – там столько разных уродов было с волчьим крюками на щитах, из батальона "Азов" были люди даже. Очевидец Саша Герасимов – это комсомолец, который просидел 11 лет в тюрьме по делу одесских комсомольцев, он тоже был там. Начал задыхаться угарным газом, потерял сознание и упал. Так вот его подняли эти самые люди в черных касках с волчьими крюками. Подтащили к окну и говорят: "Прыгай! Лучше прыгай, а то мы тебя до смерти забьем!" С пятого этажа! Естественно он не прыгал, пытался сопротивляться, они начали его бить. Есть даже кусочек видео, где он выползает, а его бьют и бьют. Он после этого три месяца в больнице пролежал, у него был мощнейший ожог одной ноги, перебитое в хлам колено второй, ему кусок коленной чашечки удаляли – в общем, чуть инвалидом не оставили, до сих пор с палкой ходит.

    Но я думаю, что если не половина, то точно треть погибла от огнестрельного оружия. Сто процентов. Там действительно было видно, что так оно и было…

    "СП": - Но ведь любой эксперт увидит пулю…

    - Эксперты увидят, но они же ее и выкинут. Андрею Бражевскому написали в свидетельстве о смерти, что он разбился, выпав из окна. Причем на видео видно, что, когда он выпал, он просто сломал ногу. Он был еще жив и пытался уйти. Нет, его добивают. Стоит какое-то мурло и добивает арматурой по черепу. Ну, как это разбился? На видео же все ясно видно, как тех, кто падает из окон, на земле уже добивают до смерти.

    "СП": - Из Одессы потом пришлось бежать?

    - Да. Уехали мы в срочном порядке в ночь с 8 на 9 мая, т.е. через неделю. Была опасность ареста, и товарища Алексея Албу предупредили по телефону его бывшие хорошие знакомые о том, что 9 мая готовятся аресты всей "Боротьбы", и что лучше нам до завтрашнего дня исчезнуть. Уезжали все вместе, всей организацией, на двух машинах с пересадками, на такси, потом микроавтобус наняли – до Херсона, потом в Крым. Вернулся в Одессу я 12 августа…

    "СП": - А с какой целью?

    - Да просто захотел, и вернулся. Нет, я понимал, что это опасно. Но на меня ничего не было. Ко мне приходили домой СБУшники и милиционеры несколько раз – хотели меня вызвать на допрос как свидетеля по 2 мая. Я не боялся, давайте, вызывайте. Приду, если надо. Я же свидетель, я же никого не убивал. Только ни на какие допросы меня не вызвали. А через месяц арестовали, ровно через месяц, после того, как я вернулся.

    Конечно, они знали, что я вернулся. Телефон естественно прослушивался, а я номера не менял и ни от кого не скрывался, ничего не боялся, общался и с матерью, и с сестрой – у них телефоны давно на прослушке. Ни от кого не прятался, жил на съемной квартире, работал…

    Я, когда вернулся, начал общаться с людьми с "Антимайдана" – это были люди, которые не смирились с тем, что произошло и хотели что-то делать. Ходили по ночам, рисовали граффити типа "Хунту вон!", листовки клеили – хоть что-то, чтобы внести свою лепту в борьбу. Пропаганда Новороссии, само собой. Новороссия - это единственный живой пример противостояния киевской власти, нигде больше такого не было. Это у нас тут с флагами ходят. А там люди взяли в руки оружие и рискуют своими жизнями, чтобы не пустить эту чуму к себе.

    Была пятница 12 сентября, прекрасный осенний вечер, в Одессе "бархатный сезон", когда море еще теплое, а воздух уже немного прохладный. Обычный вечер, небольшая компания, все прилично. Дверь у нас всегда была открыта – мы никого не боялись. Это такой типичный одесский дворик, любой сосед без спросу к тебе зайдет. И залетают какие-то люди. Поначалу непонятно было, кто. Половина в "гражданке", а те, кто в форме – без опознавательных знаков. Ни украинских флажков, ни нашивок. Первое, что я увидел – какого-то гада с новеньким автоматом Калашникова. Хороший кевларовый шлем, на шлеме череп с костями.

    Забегают, кричат "Всем руки вверх", надевают наручники, начинают пинать ногами. Потом всех лишних вывели, оставили меня, Попова и третьего нехорошего человека - Пап Палыча Шишмана, который, как оказалось, сотрудничал с ними. Товарищ Попов с нами был тогда второго мая. Сейчас он в народной милиции ЛНР, в четвертой бригаде.

    Ночью нас привозят в СБУ, разводят, как положено, по разным кабинетам, начинается допрос. У них уже была готовая "пидозра" - это по-русски дословно "подозрение". Что-то вроде обвинительного акта. Сначала они документально предъявляют "подозрение", потом пытаются досудебным расследованием доказать, потом передают дело в суд. Лично мне было предъявлено "подозрение" по статье 28-3 "Организация террористической группировки". Там организация, финансирование. То есть, если ты ребят коньяком угостил, поговорил с ними о Новороссии – это, оказывается, уже терроризм. А бутылка коньяка – это финансирование. Следователь сразу сказал: От восьми до пятнадцати. Но, говорит, у тебя проблемы есть. Я говорю: какие? Он: ты организатор. Я говорю: и что? Он: ну, ладно, не пятнадцать, но четырнадцать точно получишь.

    Несколько дней ждали адвокатов. Поговорили с ними о тактике нашей защиты. Надеялись на суд. Но на первом же суде, когда продлевали меру пресечения, поняли, что это бесполезно. Адвокат говорит: самое большое, что на вас есть – то, что петарду кинули кому-то под окно, будем на домашний арест переводить. Судья это все читает, смеется: 28-3? Смотрит на следователя: вы серьезно? Да что же они такого сделали? Следователь говорит: сделали! Ну, судья говорит, что понимает, что тут надо под домашний арест, что не за что закрывать. Но вариантов нету, и …60 дней СИЗО! Судья прямо говорит: "У меня вариантов нет. Я вас выпущу, а завтра вместо вас туда заеду…"

    Вот так на четыре месяца попал в СИЗО. Там же, в Одессе. Раз в неделю выдергивали в СБУ на допросы – не очень приятное общение с не очень приятными людьми…

    "СП": - Как пришли к тому, чтобы тебя обменять?

    - Это такая тяжелая подпольная работа, потому что списки наши достать было тяжело, у нас не было связи с волей нормальной. Ко мне 26 декабря в восемь вечера заходит старший по корпусу на вечернюю поверку с листочком, называет четыре фамилии и говорит: пятнадцать минут на сборы, вас ждут, вы свободны, до свиданья!

    Мы в шоке, собираемся. Открывается дверь, стоят какие-то дураки в форме, в масках и по одному ведут куда-то. Ну, мы поняли тогда, что обмен, уже сталкивались до этого. Нас собрали, выдали на руки постановление прокуратуры, что дело закрыто за нехваткой улик. Справку, что ты официально свободен. То есть я могу с этой справкой из СИЗО спокойно пойти домой спать. Но меня выводят в наручниках. Бойцы "Альфы" кладут в багажник минивэна "Фольксваген-транспортер". Там на сиденьях ехали "альфовцы", а мы вчетвером вот в багажнике. Они нас сковывают наручниками между собой, скидывают туда и везут на Харьков. Мы уже прекрасно понимаем, что, как, куда.

    В Харькове собрали со всей Украины двести с чем-то человек – там что-то типа перевалочного пункта было. И через Изюм – на Донецк.

    "СП": - Что произошло после обмена? Как ты попал в "Призрак"?

    - Дальше нас Донецкое МГБ забрало к себе. Все должны были пройти через допросы, чтобы понять, кто действительно сепаратист, а кто засланный. На следующий день за мной приехали мои товарищи из комендатуры ЛНР, привезли в Луганск. Там я жил у человека из батальона Дениса Хулигана, первый месяц приходил в себя, осознавал, что это свобода, круто! Потом встретился с Женей Валленбергом, мы с ним были знакомы еще по "Боротьбе". Женя привез меня в Алчевск и говорит: Не хочешь ко мне в политотдел? Мне нужны в политотделе люди реально идейные, идеологически подкованные! Я сказал, что подумаю. Подумал, и вот – теперь я тут.

    "СП": - А как ты считаешь, почему одесское сопротивление проиграло? Почему в Донбассе получилось, а у вас нет?

    - Мне, честно говоря, даже стыдно отвечать, потому что мне стыдно за Одессу. Там до сих пор процентов 70 нашего народу. Да, там всех запугали. Но тут тоже пытались всех запугивать, арестовывать. Тут вообще начали людей бомбить…

    В Одессе лидеры "Антимайдана" вместо того, чтобы сплотиться, каждый на себя одеяло тянул. Кто-то какие-то деньги намутил на "Антимайдан" через каких-то волонтеров, и потратил их на себя. Сплоченности не было. Там была тысяча человек, и полторы тысячи организаций. Полторы тысячи организаций на тысячу человек! И 2 мая так же получилось. Если бы знали, что будет, могли бы собрать двадцать тысяч человек и прогнать все это дерьмо из города. А вышло, что вообще никого не собрали. Шанс был, но не воспользовались.

    Может быть, не до конца осознавали всю серьезность. Может, сыграл роль менталитет одесситов, отличный от менталитета донбассцев. Одесситы больше приспособленцы по натуре своей. 2 мая нашим врагам удалось просто запугать большую часть населения города. С одной стороны, стыд им и позор – бояться глупо! Но с другой, их понять можно – с камнями против оружия не попрешь…

    "СП": - Как ты себе видишь разрешение всей этой ситуации? Видишь ли ты Одессу освобожденной?

    - Вижу. Я даже вижу освобожденный Киев…

    "СП": - Новороссия должна состояться в границах бывшей Донецкой и Луганской областей? Или в границах восьми областей? Или вся Украина должна быть освобождена от хунты, и осуществлена "пересборка" страны?

    - Как я уже говорил, в Одессе нас процентов 70 поддерживает. Они сейчас живут, как в оккупации. Я понимаю, что нельзя их так оставить. Как не оставили в 1941-1945 годах…

    Необходима, как ты говоришь, "пересборка" на новых началах. Новороссия - это новое знамя, за которое поднялось уже много народу, они хотят уже отделиться и сделать свое государство. Но и соседнему государству – многострадальной Украине, мы просто обязаны помочь избавиться от хунты. И дать людям свободу выбора, в какой стране жить, чтобы люди могли избрать свою власть. Просто для начала освободить их из-под оккупации. Наш враг не солдат ВСУ, который стоит напротив в окопе, а киевская хунта, власть олигархов.

    [Feb 16, 2015] Трибунал кровавого пепла, Одесса, 2 мая 2014

    Feb 16, 2015 |

    Трибунал кровавого пепла Ч1(расширенная) Одесса, 2 мая 2014, ХУЦПА "ФУЧЕДЖИ"

    Сенсация - реальный анализ - расследование трагедии 2 мая Одесса и Украина. Видео без ужасных трупов! Коментарии открыты

    Если есть что сказать или опровергнуть факты - реальными фактами- пишите в комменты под видео.

    Просим максимальный репост. Правда победит! сокращенная версия видео для "зомби" (всего 5 минут) -часть 3 - часть 4 (Импичмент)

    Свои вопросы и предложения оставляйте в комментариях, либо здесь:

    [Jan 31, 2015] Busted! Viral Video IDs Man Committing Atrocity During Odessa Massacre (cc, 5 min)

    Jan 31, 2015 | Russia Insider


    Others implicated? There'll be plenty. Not seen hitting anyone, but watching with approval: Sergei Gutsalyuk, apparently as deputy for NSDC's Andriy Parubiy, who supplied the body armor seen on some of the worst thugs there. A perp I call "Flagneck" is very identifiable, and seems to have been put in charge of things ... someone should look him up too (has his own video already

    > and ID him too.


    There's Mykola Volkov, seen meeting Parubiy and wearing his vest as he shoots at people (is he imprisoned, freed, or dead now? Stories differ) Thjs guy - Russia Insider doesn't have the inside info? Me neither. Seems like a good ID tying a (politician?) directly to personal violence. A good catch, that should get a proper name ASAP. I'll watch for it, or bring it here if I (an outsider) find it first.




    Why you say "We don't know which version is closer to the truth" - it is proven by dozens of footages and hundreds of witnesses how it was - orchestrized false flag massacre:

    KatKan > Catherine Fitzpatrick

    you say "Perhaps this video will be found to be authentic in which case we can
    hope the perpetrator will be found and prosecuted -- and if it's true
    he's been let go without proper prosecution, then his prosecution should
    be sought again."

    Please check the facts. there is no IF about it -- it is there on the video. Some people helped some out of the building, and others immediately started beating them. This particular man was beating someone who was injured, having fallen from the burning building. He is seen trying to grab another freshly rescued man until several other people chase him away.

    He WAS FOUND and WAS ARRESTED. Then the police let him out after a mob of 50 or more people started to become threatening outside the police station. there's video of that too. He was not alone, others arrested were also let go.

    There is also video of people outside preparing molotov cocktails hours before (when it was still daylight) and NONE of any being made inside. Or mterials to do so. There is also video of thugs sitting on fire truck to prevent it going there to put the fire out.

    It is not a matter of saying one side is angels and the other is devils. They all went there to fight.

    BUT it is (a) beating and kicking seriously injured people is criminal (b) using mobs to terrorize the police into not investigating or charging the criminals is ;;;; what would you call it? mob rule? .lawlessness? reign of terror? No amount of people rescuing others makes it okay for SOME to then bash them up.

    sirwilliam > KatKan

    The west are mostly packed with all criminals who will do and say anything just to start a war. It does not matter with who because they need to feed on the fear of the people, no matter who the people are. The Russian people are beautiful people and their leader is the finest ever. I love Putin because he is a real savior for all people. Everything bad comes from the west. God Bless Russia.and Putin.for being the man he is. The west is truly corrupt and needs men like Putin to take out all the trash and believe me there's a lot of it.

    Harlan County > sirwilliam •

    I am from the west and I have been speaking out about our neocons fomenting regime change and color revolutions.

    [Oct 18, 2014] Odessa, Remember everything

    Oct 16, 2014 |

    Well what this bitch-dispatcher behaves unprofessional and rude is not the main issue. In the end, the decision to not to send the fire brigade was taken by her superiors. She's just a dumb sheep in the call center.

    But there are more interesting questions. Whether intentional burning of a building into which people escaped from beating, a crime? Well in any other country (except for the most rudimentary, primitive) - Yes, of course. If so, what was to be done?

    Odessa Katyn is unique in that all this was recorded on dozens of mobile phones, cameras and television cameras. Much posted on Youtube. To catch all this west-Ukrainian nationalists, touring and other scum was a matter of technique. Well, for example, faces of those who were filling fire bottles are available free to access. The faces of those who poured gasoline on the bottles -- as much as you want. Zoom in, make a sketch, if the image is of poor quality. Declare that these people are criminals. And hunt for them. And ask for assistance from the population in their identification and capture. And what was done? NOTHING. Zero. Why?

    1. Because of Odessa it was necessary to INTIMIDATE. And those who refused the investigation, in General, proved to be right. Today almost left Odessa, ready to provide active resistance galloping guest performers.
    2. The Ukrainian government (or the junta, if you want) was calculated on help of Right Sector. Jaining even rank-and-fire member of Right Sector even for serious, heinous crimes is transforming ally into the enemy. Who will do this?
    3. This is a very bad PR. And American friends were always against this, because they are extremely sensitive to PR. And now they will tells you what you need to do. Well, for example, declare "they themselves set fire" or something in similar spirit.

    I do not justify actions of man-eater rulers and their American advisors. I just wnat to explain motivation. I would like to remind that event in Donbass did not started yet. But they see Odessa event and extrapolate it on on themselves.

    [Aug 11, 2014] NYT Discovers Ukraine's Neo-Nazis at War Consortiumnews by Robert Parry

    Aug 10, 2014 |

    ... ... ...

    Burning Insects

    The brutality of these neo-Nazis surfaced again on May 2 when right-wing toughs in Odessa attacked an encampment of ethnic Russian protesters driving them into a trade union building which was then set on fire with Molotov cocktails. As the building was engulfed in flames, some people who tried to flee were chased and beaten, while those trapped inside heard the Ukrainian nationalists liken them to black-and-red-striped potato beetles called Colorados, because those colors are used in pro-Russian ribbons.

    "Burn, Colorado, burn" went the chant.

    As the fire worsened, those dying inside were serenaded with the taunting singing of the Ukrainian national anthem. The building also was spray-painted with Swastika-like symbols and graffiti reading "Galician SS," a reference to the Ukrainian nationalist army that fought alongside the German Nazi SS in World War II, killing Russians on the eastern front.

    The death by fire of dozens of people in Odessa recalled a World War II incident in 1944 when elements of a Galician SS police regiment took part in the massacre of the Polish village of Huta Pieniacka, which had been a refuge for Jews and was protected by Russian and Polish partisans. Attacked by a mixed force of Ukrainian police and German soldiers on Feb. 28, 1944, hundreds of townspeople were massacred, including many locked in barns that were set ablaze.

    The legacy of World War II – especially the bitter fight between Ukrainian nationalists from the west and ethnic Russians from the east seven decades ago – is never far from the surface in Ukrainian politics. One of the heroes celebrated during the Maidan protests in Kiev was Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera, whose name was honored in many banners including one on a podium where Sen. John McCain voiced support for the uprising to oust Yanukovych, whose political base was among ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine.

    During World War II, Bandera headed the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists-B, a radical paramilitary movement that sought to transform Ukraine into a racially pure state. OUN-B took part in the expulsion and extermination of thousands of Jews and Poles.

    Though most of the Maidan protesters in 2013-14 appeared motivated by anger over political corruption and by a desire to join the European Union, neo-Nazis made up a significant number and surged to the front during the seizure of government buildings and the climatic clashes with police.

    In the days after the Feb. 22 coup, as the neo-Nazi militias effectively controlled the government, European and U.S. diplomats scrambled to help the shaken parliament put together the semblance of a respectable regime, although at least four ministries, including national security, were awarded to the right-wing extremists in recognition of their crucial role in ousting Yanukovych.

    As extraordinary as it was for a modern European state to hand ministries over to neo-Nazis, virtually the entire U.S. news media cooperated in playing down the neo-Nazi role. Stories in the U.S. media delicately step around this neo-Nazi reality by keeping out relevant context, such as the background of coup regime's national security chief Andriy Parubiy, who founded the Social-National Party of Ukraine in 1991, blending radical Ukrainian nationalism with neo-Nazi symbols. Parubiy was commandant of the Maidan's "self-defense forces."

    Last April, as the Kiev regime launched its "anti-terrorist operation" against the ethnic Russians in the east, Parubiy announced that his right-wing paramilitary forces, incorporated as National Guard units, would lead the way. On April 15, Parubiy went on Twitter to declare, "Reserve unit of National Guard formed #Maidan Self-defense volunteers was sent to the front line this morning." (Parubiy resigned from his post this past week for unexplained reasons.)

    Now, however, as the Ukrainian military tightens its noose around the remaining rebel strongholds, battering them with artillery fire and aerial bombardments, thousands of neo-Nazi militia members are again pressing to the front as fiercely motivated fighters determined to kill as many ethnic Russians as they can. It is a remarkable story but one that the mainstream U.S. news media would prefer not to notice.

    Investigative reporter Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories for The Associated Press and Newsweek in the 1980s. You can buy his new book, America's Stolen Narrative, either in print here or as an e-book (from Amazon and For a limited time, you also can order Robert Parry's trilogy on the Bush Family and its connections to various right-wing operatives for only $34. The trilogy includes America's Stolen Narrative. For details on this offer, click here.

    Joe Tedesky on August 10, 2014 at 12:11 pm

    Ernst Julius Günther Röhm, and his Sturmabteilung had a shelve life that expired in 1934. I think someone wrote in the comment section here a while back how the Ukraine bully's would probably meet the same fate as Rohm. Could the NYT be a prelude to us witnessing the end of these thugs. Let's hope so.

    fosforos, on August 10, 2014 at 1:32 pm

    What followed Rohm was much worse. Let's hope that you're wrong.

    Joe Tedesky, on August 10, 2014 at 3:08 pm

    Let's put it this way, if I were any of those guys I would not book a room at any hotel for a party meeting!

    Jacob, on August 10, 2014 at 8:27 pm

    Ernst Roehm was the leader of the socialist faction within the Nazi party. Thus, initially, the presence of party socialists, who appealed to Germany's middle class, is where the name National Socialist came from. The SA, of which Roehm was the leader, had about 3 million men and thus he was perceived to be a potential threat to Hitler's leadership of the Nazi party. Hitler's capitalist big business supporters (e.g. Kirdorf, Krupp, Voegler, Thyssen) disliked Roehm's socialistic views on the economy and his claims, typical of socialists, that the real revolution was still to come; thus, they wanted Hitler to get rid of him. So, after Roehm was eliminated, the only socialism in the Nazi party was socialism for big business – in the form of corporatism.

    incontinent reader on August 10, 2014 at 12:48 pm

    Bob- Thanks for another great article and for hammering the Times on a very important point that the West and its mainstream media have consistently ignored, downplayed, and have even accused Russia of trying to manufacture or conflate.

    Kramer also fails to add that the Azov militia is Oleg Kolomoyski's private army, or that, while the Ukrainian army may 'feel emboldened'- reports are that they are getting desperately needed US and NATO technical help and supplies (e.g.- a recent shipment by the Canadian government to Kharkov), and that NATO troops are present in increasing numbers to help Ukrainian Army that already greatly outnumbers the resistance in manpower and equipment- it is also reported from the Donbass side that the freedom fighters are defeating the junta forces when they engage, resulting in large numbers of junta casualties, and the capture of large caches of equipment, and also that they have been otherwise squeezing the junta forces in encirclements (cauldrons) and that already hundreds of Ukrainian soldiers have surrendered with many seeking to resettle in Russia. This is in contrast to U.S. claims that the Russians are supplying junta forces, which is more consistent with the West's positive spin that Kiev is winning and the resistance is only surviving through the efforts of Russia). Even in the Ukrainian media there are reports of widespread losses and discontent among the soldiers about the their lack of adequate preparation, supplies and ordinance, and the incompetence of the military leadership. So, the Times, to its disgrace is peddling yet another skewed and misleading narrative.

    William Jacoby on August 10, 2014 at 1:36 pm

    Great article and I totally respect Robert Parrish's professionalism, but even more historical context would not, I think, tarnish that professionalism. I'm thinking of the research that has been done on the ties that have existed between our intelligence agencies, the Gehlen Group that we signed on after they left Hitler's employ for Great Britain's, and the continuing ties between Ukrainian nationalists and our government's anti-communist crusade. A stopover on the subject of Operation Gladio would be a worthwhile detour also. I was impressed by "America's Nazi Secrets" by former DOJ Nazi prosecutor John Loftus.

    An excellent backgrounder recently appeared in OpEdNews by George Eliason (–Why-Bandera-Have-by-George-Eliason-Communism_Extreme_Hitler_Ideology-140801-8.html).

    America badly needs an appointment with a psychiatrist.

    bfearn on August 10, 2014 at 2:05 pm

    America has aligned itself with any number of despots who asked "how high" when asked to jump by their American masters.

    Why should anything be any different now?

    F. G. Sanford on August 10, 2014 at 2:07 pm

    Somebody mentioned Ernst Roehm, so I'll take that topic as fair game. This is a difficult needle to thread, but if you sift through the haystack long enough, it's impossible to ignore.

    Roehm, the Strasser brothers (Otto and Gregor), Kurt Luedecke, Ernst Hanfstaengl and even to an extent Hess represented what might be called the "left wing" or "socialist" leg of the National Socialist movement. The Strassers were sympathetic to Bolshevism, and they along with Roehm believed the "revolution needed to continue" in order to advance socialist principles and improve the lot of common people. Don't get me wrong – they were just as looney as the rest of the gang – but they didn't come close to the distilled evil represented by the cloistered masterminds. They were the foot-soldiers, and most of what was known about the mass psychosis of the inner circle is owed to the fact that Otto, Ernst and Kurt escaped. Self preservation more than honesty no doubt prevailed, but they painted a gruesome enough picture.

    As it turned out, the picture they painted wasn't near gruesome enough. Today in Ukraine, typical of such movements, Parry is revealing the distasteful truth about the foot-soldiers.

    Eventually, we'll have to confront horrors which dwarf what we know now. Functioning after the war as a kind of "stay-behind" Gladio operation, the OUN and international support groups such as UCCA masterminded as many as 30,000 political assassinations inside USSR. As a closed society, that reality was carefully guarded. As I've mentioned, sooner or later the masterminds will begin exporting some of their less desirable commodities. MH-17 was "previews of coming attractions". Pillar mentions the "difficulty of mustering international support for enforcement of a standard if one appears to be flouting it elsewhere". That's kind of like bombing Tripoli because Gaddafi was threatening civilians in Benghazi. Russia would wisely introduce R2P, but Susan Rice will staunchly object. She's OK with the happy couple. Just wait till she "meets the in-laws".

    Loren Bliss on August 10, 2014 at 2:09 pm

    Mr. Parry: Is there any evidence the Obama Administration's open support of the Ukrainian neo-Nazis and its implicit support-by-tolerance of U.S. hard-right militias are each manifestations of some new federal policy of brazen, across-the-board alignment with violently reactionary forces everywhere? If so, could this be a prelude to a public declaration of overtly fascist governance - no doubt euphemized as "patriotic Christianity" or something similar - here at home?

    (Obviously the U.S. government has, in its role as capitalism's goon squad, always favored fascism abroad, if only because fascism and/or Nazism are the ultimate forms of capitalism - the logical end results of capitalism's Ayn Rand ideology. But in the past, the U.S. downplayed these realities abroad and, domestically, generally appeared to regard members of the armed right as public enemies, hence the events at, for example, Ruby Ridge and Waco. Now however under Obama, the message of the Bundy Ranch incident seems to be that even the domestic pretense of opposition to storm-trooper elements is being dropped. Which raises questions hitherto unthinkable: is the government, now openly allied with neo-Nazis abroad, also clandestinely seeking the U.S. hard-right militias as allies? Could this indeed be preparation for some final putsch to eliminate the few remaining vestiges of constitutional governance? )

    rosemerry on August 10, 2014 at 3:38 pm

    The observation that Obama and his maladministration continue to support in every way the violence, illegality and lies of the Netanyahu régime make it clear that he is determined to exceed the misdeeds of his predecessor in a spectacular way. Ukraine, Colombia, Honduras, "good" Syrian rebels, Libyan chaos-any interference will do.

    Audriano on August 10, 2014 at 2:47 pm

    I don't think the Nazi symbols are 'neo' or just similar. In Azov's case they're pretty much direct:

    As to illustrate a common Ukrainian sense of mentality, there's a cafe in Kiev with a macabre (or 'creative') menu, serving – I quote – 'Colorado Bugs Fried a la Odessa' (!)

    You can dismiss the 'Praviy Sektor' (many often misleadingly do), but it's not about Muzichko or Yarosh or The Right Sector, or even 'Svoboda' – as not being very popular – but it's also about Azov, it's about the far-right parliament member Oleg Lyashko, recently 'black listed' by Amnesty International, who has collected 8.3% of the presidential votes and his 'Radical Party' (yes, that's the official name) who, at the moment, are the political frontrunners according to some polls, more popular than Timoshenko's and Yatsenyuk's 'Batkivshchina'.

    F. G. Sanford on August 10, 2014 at 4:41 pm

    @ Loren Bliss re: Ayn Rand – Years ago, I came across an out-of-print book in a used bookstore. It's been misplaced, but I'd recognize the author if I saw his name. As I recall, he was a French political exile.

    In addition to all Hitler's speeches between 1933 and 1941, he included significant press excerpts released by major Western news services following each speech. Virtually every one glad-handed and soft-soaped Hitler as a rational actor serving reasonable German national interests. They referred to him frequently as, "the German statesman". Behaving as a completely spineless and self serving tool of corporate interests is not a new phenomenon for them.

    There have only ever been a handful of real correspondents. George Seldes, Robert Fisk, John Pilger, Richard Hottelet, William Shirer, Martha Gellhorn, Peter Arnett, and of course, Robert Parry would all qualify. Anderson Cooper and Christiane Amanpour are not journalists; they'r political hacks. But, I digress.

    The other interesting thing I learned was the source from which Ayn Rand PLAGIARIZED or PARAPHRASED all her work. ALL of it. Every self-serving rhetorical greed infested line of prose or twisted reasoning has a mirror image somewhere in passages from those speeches. She superimposed them on low-minded soap opera plots and sold it as original work.

    It should come as no surprise that Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilley think it's terrific stuff. Ayn was so bitter that the Bolsheviks appropriated her family's wealth that she was willing to take up the Nazi mantle, but her admirers are not likely to ever admit that.

    Loren Bliss on August 11, 2014 at 12:22 am

    Actually what Ayn Rand did, particularly in Atlas Shrugged, is write a highly fictionalized version of Mein Kampf - "My Struggle."

    Brendan on August 10, 2014 at 5:35 pm

    Unfortunately the prominent role of the neo-Nazis in Ukraine is also ignored in the European media. The only reference to Nazis that most people will see is a comparison between Putin and Hitler. The media is just reflecting the consensus that is shared by politicians, even those who are considered to be left of centre and opposed to intolerance.

    There have been a few times however when the Nazi-worshipping ideology gets some coverage. A TV program (sorry only in German showed an interview with the Ukrainian education minister Serhiy Kvit praising Bandera and also a group of school children being taught that Bandera was a role model (of course they play down his Nazi collaboration). Serhiy Kvit is a member of the Bandera's Trident organisation which is closely linked to the Right Sector.

    Mike Rennie on August 10, 2014 at 6:27 pm

    One thing leads to the next.
    American corporate MSM hammers the propaganda to make the coup that overthrew an elected President seem like no big deal, White Hats triumphing over Black Hats.

    Then, when a faction of this neo-Nazi infested Government shoots down a commercial airliner, and commits war crimes against civilians in the East, and constantly lies about "Russian provocations" to try to get more military assistance from the US and her client states, American citizens barely hear about it, don't believe it, think "neo-Nazi" is just a slogan that must come from Moscow "propaganda".

    The "news" is a constant battlefield of American propaganda – what they win one week from "hearts and minds" is used the next week, and the next, and the next to construct the next story, or the next chapter of an ongoing story, or the next round of sanctions, or the next war.

    Milan on August 10, 2014 at 6:46 pm

    Check this:

    americaatemychildren on August 10, 2014 at 8:55 pm

    Kolomoisky's battalion is "dniepro". The head of the azov battlion is Andriy Belitsky w
    ho also leads the Social-National Assembly of Ukr., whose ideology is, guess what: National Socialism.

    Their flag is a wulfsangel w/lions. In addition, he is the head of Patriots of Ukr, the paramilitary branch of the SNA, flag: wulfsangel.

    Besides being neo-nazi nationalists committed to violence, they are white supremacists. They have supposedly recruited prominent Swedish nazi, white supremacists to help w/ the slaughter. The video that links to the NYT story is mischaracterized by Kramer. Oddly, at 7:23 a male voice is heard saying, "Run!, Run!, Run!" in American accented English. ?

    americaatemychildren on August 10, 2014 at 9:22 pm

    I forgot to say, Kravchuk is Marchuk's real name. This article is a mere crack in the monolith of disinformation. If they ever openly acknowledge the role played by nazis it will probably mean that the whole project is becoming too expensive to continue.

    Pat on August 11, 2014 at 12:43 am

    In my search for independent, objective information, I've been reading the daily press releases from the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) special monitoring mission to Ukraine (SSM). MSM have quoted them selectively – or in some glaring cases misquoted them – primarily in articles about the inspection of the MH 17 crash site.

    However, the OSCE briefings contain a lot more info. One might think they'd be biased toward EU interests, but they actually seem to be pretty objective, and they are there on the ground, doing what reporters should be doing.

    Here are a couple of excerpts that support Bob's reporting above:

    From August 5 briefing:
    The mayor of Velykomykhailivka (165km southeast of Dnepropetrovsk city) told the SMM that Right Sector activists, based in a training camp at a village close to the boundary with the Donetsk region, had been harassing local people. He alleged that some of the activists, sometimes drunk, had specifically fired shots in the air, stolen vehicles at checkpoints manned by them, and had entered houses, and intimidated women. The police, he said, were powerless to act, and the authorities, at a higher level, were doing nothing to stop this behaviour. Similar allegations were made by local inhabitants in mid-July.

    From August 8 briefing:
    Two senior officials from Luhansk City Administration and from SBU corroborated an account given to the SMM that the mayor of Luhansk had been detained in Shchastya (23km north of Luhansk) by members of the voluntary Aidar Battalion, fighting with the Ukrainian army against the 'LPR'.

    The shelling of Donetsk continued. The SMM visited two high-rise residential buildings and a local hospital in the city centre, showing damage consistent with the use of artillery projectiles; and saw traumatised and crying civilians and medical staff (see SMM Report evening of 7 August). The scene was photographed by SMM.

    If I'm not mistaken, a "terrorist" is someone who terrorizes. It sure sounds like the people of eastern Ukraine are being terrorized by these drunken neo-Nazi "activists," self-styled militia on the side of the coup-led government, and the Ukrainian military itself.

    Yours truly on August 11, 2014 at 3:45 am

    The Kiev government says that it is false Russian propaganda. They self believe in this?

    Thingumbob (@Thingumbobesq) on August 11, 2014 at 8:20 am

    The CIA Allen Dulles post war anti-Soviet "captive nations" apparatus was based upon protection of these fascists in Ukraine and many other countries. Now NATO is openly arming them. If you know this history that is not surprising. Chapter 5 of "Hitler's Shadow" deals with this CIA collaboration in Ukraine, but the whole book is well worth reading on the unknown history swept under NATO's rug.

    Colin Smith on August 11, 2014 at 8:55 am

    First of all I'd like to complement everyone on the high quality of the comments made above.

    I've learned a tremendous amount simply by reading the article and your comments. Secondly, I'd like to ask anyone if they know any more about the 'filtration camps' that were raised some time ago and have since dropped out of sight. My concern is that with the right Sector or extreme-nationalist volunteers manning the front line in front of regular Ukrainian Army artillery, there will be outright massacres and mss deportations once the advancing front line has overrun Donestk and Lugansk. Those Russian speakers who were unable to get away may end up in the 'concentration camps' operated by the factions in Kiev. My other concern is that if such 'pogroms' start Putin may be driven to send in forces to rescue them, thereby giving the Americans a pretext for rampling up a general war between NATO and Russia. Again, great, intelligent postings.Let's have more.

    PS I have just finished "Alliance For Murder" edited by B.F.Sabrin, which is subtitled "The Nazi-Ukrainian Nationalist Partnership in Genocide". Uneven, but excellent in parts. on August 11, 2014 at 8:57 am

    Posted for Roger Annis

    The self-censorship that Robert Parry observes in the U.S. media is in play big time in Canada. The role of fascist and far-right militias and political movements in Kyiv's war in southeast Ukraine is absent from mainstream media, as is the horror of the bombings and shellings of civilian populations by the army and its allied militias.

    Yesterday, Canada's Globe and Mail national daily editorialized in favour of the aggressive, NATO posture that wants Russia to forget about domestic public opinion and let the slaughter in eastern Ukraine continue unabated. In remarkably frank language, the Globe editors say that Russia should be given some space to back away in order that "we" may win want "we" want–a pliant, "independent" Ukraine. The Canadian government is backing its words with action–last week, it shipped $5 million in "non-lethal" military equipment to Ukraine and it is pledging more. It is running to catch up with the $31 million in assistance being provided by Washington, plus the $19 million now pledged to train Ukraine's National Guard.

    The progressive Toronto Star columnist Thomas Walkom made a rare foray for a Canadian columnist into the subject of the Ukraine war in his column yesterday. Unfortunately, he repeats a lot of the misinformation and outright falsehoods about events over the past months, so his welcome, cautionary note about the folly of Canada backing Kyiv's war gets lost.

    A Guardian writer, meanwhile, mused on Aug 5 about what will happen when the fascist and rightist militias being armed to the teeth by Kyiv and NATO return home from the battlefront. He wrote:

    The proliferation of these battalions also poses important questions for the postwar settlement, and Poroshenko will need to find a way to integrate the groups either into the army or back into civilian life when the conflict in the east is over.

    "A new Maidan could pose a danger to the very nature of Ukrainian statehood, and of course there will be a major issue about what happens to all of these volunteer battalions when they return from the east. They are heavily armed, and many have links to oligarchs or political forces," says Fesenko. On Monday, there was an early warning of what could be to come, when the Kiev-1 battalion, back from the front, raided a cafe in central Kiev in order to evict other activists who had allegedly taken it over. (End quote.)

    Hillary on August 11, 2014 at 9:35 am

    "Could the NYT be a prelude to us witnessing the end of these thugs. Let's hope so." Joe Tedesky on August 10, 2014 at 12:11 pm .

    Wishful thinking Joe as the NYT has been a constant neocon promoter .
    BTW as for the phone evidence one should be highly suspicious because of the "Trojan" which is a special communication device that could be planted by commandos deep inside enemy territory. The device would act as a relay station for misleading transmissions made by the disinformation unit in the Mossad, called LAP, and intended to be received by American and British listening stations.

    Remember Lybia ?

    Originating from a distant IDF control center , the prerecorded digital transmissions could be picked up only by the Trojan. The device would then rebroadcast the transmission on another frequency, one used for official business in the "enemy country", at which point the transmission would finally be picked up by American ears in Britain.

    Thank you for you inquisitive mind & good comments.

    Joe Tedesky on August 11, 2014 at 10:32 am

    Hillary, that was an interesting link. I will need to go online and buy that book.

    Yeah, maybe my take on the NYT article is wishful thinking. Although, there does seem to be many moving parts whirling around within the Ukraine junta. Revolutions always tend to create a certain kind of who's in, and who's out kind of atmosphere. Add to that, how things are not what they always seem to be.

    Always good to read your comments, and I find your reference links some of the best to read…take care J.T.

    Tosman on August 11, 2014 at 9:45 am

    Who supports these Nazis? Kiev is broke? History repeats itself…Ford Motor enthusiastically supported the Reich, but resisted calls from Roosevelt and Churchill to increase war production for the Allies.

    A third of trucks used in the motorized Nazi blitzkrieg were Ford:

    GM collected $33 million in "war reparations" because the Allies had bombed its German facilities. Senior executives for GM, Ford and Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, received the Grand Cross of the German Eagle:

    Abe on August 11, 2014 at 1:24 pm

    "A crusade against the Semite-led Untermenschen."
    - Andriy Biletsky, commander of Ukraine's Azov battalion

    Abe on August 11, 2014 at 2:00 pm

    The Salvador Option Redux:

    Iraq (2006) – US backed regime deploys Interior Ministry armed and financed death squads in counter insurgency operations

    Ukraine (2014) – US backed regime deploys Interior Ministry armed and financed death squads in counter insurgency operations

    Tosman on August 11, 2014 at 6:29 pm

    From El Salvador to Iraq, James Steele (US Colonel) – fueled the sectarian war in Iraq:

    Published on Jun 30, 2014

    трагедия 2 мая в Одессе . Видео без ужасных трупов!


    Просим вас обратить внимание на итоги независимой экспертизы , проведённой в Севастополе из взятых образцов в здании профсоюзов в гор. Одесса, после событий 2 мая 2014 г. В лаборатории судэкспертизы города Севастополя провели анализ образцов.

    Сейчас в Одессе делается все, чтобы "Одесская Хатынь" была забыта.
    Вернее, не забыта (такое не забывается), но подана в нужном хунте и гауляйтеру Бене виде.
    Хрен у них получится.

    Правда все равно вылезает из-под бетона фашистской пропаганды, - и обязательно прозвучит на суде.

    Полученные образцы из дома профсоюза Одессы, при химическом анализе и спектроанализе, показали следы белого фосфора. Видимо применялась дымовая граната М15 производства США. При воздействии одежда остается нетронутой, а открытые участки кожи чернеют (обугливаются) и даже может прожигать до костей. Что и наблюдалось на снимках жертв. Вывод: 100% хунтой было применёно химическое оружие. То же самое америкосы применяли в Ираке. Очевидцы говорили, что слышен был хлопок и белый дым. Как раз так она и работает.

    Видео и снимки с места происшествия ещё раз доказывают это. Отсутствие обгоревшей одежды на трупах, чёрный цвет открытых участков тела (рук и головы). Шутки молодчиков про "негров".

    Время воздействия белого фосфора приблизительно 60 секунд. Радиус действия гранаты 20 метров. Граната была заброшена после поджога и горения центрального входа. В результате горения нижнего этажа, создалась тяга вдоль колесничного подъёма, по которому спасаясь поднимались вверх люди, что и повлияло на зону поражения. Многие, кто находился на данном участке погиб в течении минуты. При вдохе белого фосфора происходит спазм дыхательных путей, за счёт резкого обжига с последующим летальным исходом.

    Так же, есть записи очевидцев, спасавшихся в кабинетах, что они видели как из под дверей в комнату поступал жёлто-зелённый дым, который тоже вызывал удушье. В данных случаях применялся хлор в ампулах. Ампулы были найдены после.

    Просим ознакомиться с видеоматериалами, которые произошли тогда в Ираке. ссылка:

    Обратите внимание на труппы, которые там имеют схожее положение. Когда лежит на спине, а руки как бы стоят вверх. Точно такие позы занимают трупы на снимках и в доме профсоюзов Одессы.

    Фотографии: - заметьте пол чистый, без сажи, это ещё раз подтверждает, что кожа не в саже, а последствия воздействия б.фосфора. - обратите внимание на цвет кожи, при этом одежда не такая закопчённая. На самом деле на коже не копоть а воздействие б.фосфора.

    На двух последних фото видна специфическая поза. В такой позе умирает человек от резкого удушья при воздействии б.фосфора.

    Доказательств много и на лицо применение химического оружия, что запрещено международной конвенцией.

    Сегодня дом профсоюзов огородили забором и начаты ремонтные работы. Это не что иное как уничтожение улик. Они начали полностью снимать штукатурку, демонтируют полы и производят дезактивацию спецсредствами, для того чтобы скрыть правду.

    Просим вас неоднократно донести эту правду до массового зрителя. Потому, что если это скрыть, то завтра будет применяться это же химическое оружие и против населения в ДНР и ЛНР.

    Прошу прислать подтверждение о получении данной информации вами.
    С уважением, Александр Фильченко.


    Jun. 13th, 2014 10:38 am (UTC)
    Насчёт гранат М15 сомневаюсь. Скорее всего, когда готовились, были привлечены химики. Чисто чтобы делать коктейли Молотова и взрывпакеты с повышенной эффективностью. Для химика достать в непромышленных масштабах фосфор вполне по силам.

    Jun. 13th, 2014 06:39 pm (UTC)

    Похоже на газетную утку.
    То что, применялся какой то газ либо химикаты однозначно, но навряд ли в виде фосфорных гранат.

    Если пошарить в интернете, то пишут, что граната М-12 при взрыве дает температуру более 2500С. Значит все кругом должно выгорать и плавится. А как же неповрежденные деревянные детали вокруг обугленных тел? И на тех же фото из статьи - есть люди у кого сгоревшая исключительно голова и кисти рук. Что за избирательность гранаты?? В более ранних изысканиях на эту тему объяснялось более логично - поджигали голову зажигательной смесью типа напалма, пытались тушить руками - оттого сгоревшие кисти.

    Дело то ведь в том, что погибло множество людей именно не из за пожара, а были забиты насмерть битами, зарублены, застрелены,а затем уже подожжены, чтобы имитировать смерть от угорания.

    Зачем здесь например фото Гены Кушнарева (в полосатой кофте)? Он был застрелен, в области поясницы, потому майдауны потом перевернули тело на спину, одели бронежилет и потом уже закончили свое гнусное дело -подожгли голову.

    Может был и фосфор, может быть. Но надо очень внимательно подходить к сбору фактов и к тому, как представлять эту информацию. "Разоблачение российских фейков" - это новая отрасль работы укро- СМИ. Не будем давать им козырей лишних в руки.

    Jun. 13th, 2014 09:00 pm (UTC)

    Несколько замечаний

    Несколько замечаний/вопросов от занудного биохимика.

    1. "Полученные образцы … показали следы белого фосфора"
    Что именно обнаружила экспертиза? Через несколько часов после применения белого фосфора в окружающей среде не остается, он самопроизвольно окисляется (даже возгорается) на воздухе. "Химическими и спектральными" методами можно зарегистрировать повышенное содержание фосфора как химического элемента - в виде оксидов, фосфатов, других соединений. Допустим, зафиксировали. Откуда уверенность, что повышенная концентрация именно от сгорания белого фосфора, а не (например) от фосфорорганических отравляющих веществ (ФОВ http: //www. medkursor. ru/ biblioteka /poisoning /military/3812. html)?

    2. "Обратите внимание на труппы, которые там имеют схожее положение. Когда лежит на спине, а руки как бы стоят вверх"
    Такое положение напоминает клонико-тонические судороги и характерно именно при отравлении ФОВ нервно-паралитического действия, см. видео применения VX в Сирии, с 15 сек https : // www . youtube . com / watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ix1vtepgpB8 .

    3. "При воздействии.. открытые участки кожи чернеют (обугливаются) и даже может прожигать до костей"
    Да. Хотя, на фотографиях больше следов копоти, чем обугливания (например, равномерный слой не только на коже, но и на стёклах очков – стекло не может обугливаться!) В случае же применения боеприпасов, содержащих белый фосфор, ожоги очень характерные. Где попадают крупицы фосфора, должны наблюдаться "выжженные язвы". Примерно так http : // shayunbiqalbi. wordpress. com /2010 /12/13/ white-phosphorus-burn/ . Вопрос к тем, кто осматривал тела пострадавших: такие следы были?

    4. "Они начали полностью снимать штукатурку, демонтируют полы и производят дезактивацию спецсредствами"

    После применения белого фосфора, особенно через несколько дней (тем более недель!) никакой дезактивации не требуется. Максимум что останется – следы как от пролитой кока-колы (~0,2% раствор фосфорной кислоты). А вот в случае стойких ОВ (к которым относятся ФОВ) – как раз дезактивация нужна.

    Какой вывод? Применение ОВ имело место, однако не факт, что это был белый фосфор (и уж совсем нелепо – хлор или хлороформ). ИМХО, это была фосфорорганика. В то же время какие-то дымовые гранаты применялись - я смотрел 02 мая онлайн стрим канала O1 и видел, как боец приводит в действие и забрасывает в здание зелёную армейскую дымовую шашку. Кто может найти запись этого видео – посмотрите маркировку на корпусе. А с остальным надо ещё разбираться.

    [Jun 21, 2014] Krivda -- none of 48 victims of Odessa massacre dies of body damages

    Thiose are "offocial" results of investigation of junta. MK is a stalvrt of the liberast camp media in Russia. Also if a founder of Social National Party of Ukraine said something this is probably a lie. One interesting detail: "Local activists have noted that it could be a provocateur. In the media there were indications that it could be a powerful opioid karfentanile used as an anesthetic for large animals. Officials did not comment on karfentanile"


    Earlier, the investigation stated that the House of Trade Unions during the tragedy of May 2 was used hazardous chemicals. SBU also stated that the building was found an unknown substance, which was sent on international expertise. While there is no information on this matter has been submitted.

    Head of the Odessa Regional Bureau forensic Gregory Krivda, said only that 20 people were killed on May 2 in Odessa, gas poisoning, smoke and fumes that same unknown substance.

    According to him, nine people were killed due to carbon monoxide poisoning, and two died in the hospital due to severe body burns, three - because of severe burns to the respiratory tract and body.

    "Another five people - burns of the respiratory tract of the body in combination with unspecified poisoning gases and combustion products. Burns of the respiratory tract in combination with unspecified poisoning gases - one person. The largest group - Poisoning unspecified gases, fumes, vapors - 14 people "- quoted Krivda RIA" Novosti ".

    According to him, six people died from gunshot wounds he received in the city center, two died during riots in the House of Trade Unions has not yet been identified.

    Injustice also clarified that the experts conducted a study of all the dead bodies for drugs and medicines - nowhere drugs and drugs were found.

    Head examination emphasized that none of the 48 fatalities died of injuries that could testify about the beatings.

    Earlier, the head of the Security Service of Ukraine Valentyn Nalyvaychenko confirmed that in the House of Trade Unions in the fire were used to an unknown substance. According to one of the parliamentary deputies from the party "BLOW" intelligence services know the name of the man who brought him to Odessa. Local activists have noted that it could be a provocateur.
    In the media there were indications that it could be a powerful opioid karfentanile used as an anesthetic for large animals. Officials did not comment on karfentanile.

    Later, Deputy Interior Minister of Ukraine announced that investigators found in garbage and soot withdrawn in the House of Trade Unions after the fire, traces of chloroform. Inhalation of large amounts of human substance leads to respiratory arrest that allegedly occurred during the fire - found that 32 people were killed by high temperatures, and of an unknown substance. How the substance appeared in the House of Trade Unions, is now investigated.

    However, Russian experts doubted that chloroform could cause the death of so many people. In order for dozens of people, even indoors to be poisoned to death by this substance, "it must be poured into the extremely large quantities - many dozens, if not hundreds of gallons."

    [Jun 18, 2014] UN: the Ministry of internal Affairs and security service of Ukraine does not help in the investigation of the events in Odessa

    The monitoring mission of the office of the UN high Commissioner for human rights (OHCHR) said that the interior Ministry and the security Service of Ukraine does not work with experts of the world organization in the investigation of the tragedy in Odessa, reports ITAR-TASS with reference to the third report of the mission of the OHCHR.

    It is noted that there remain a number of issues still require clarification.

    "It is regrettable that the mission reports lack of cooperation by the two main agencies (leading the investigation - the interior Ministry and SBU). This position does not give the mission a chance to give his own assessment of the progress achieved", - the report says.

    The UN report it is informed that since the beginning of the military operations of the Ukrainian army in Donetsk and Lugansk regions were killed 386 people.

    Previous UN report on Ukraine, the Russian foreign Ministry considered it as a political order to whitewash of Kiev.

    [Jun 18, 2014] The Vineyard of the Saker June 13th Combat SITREP by Juan

    Anonymous said...
    Part 1: There was an comment about a article in zerohedge( "Gruesome Footage Of ISIS Atrocities Reveals Al Qaeda Jihadists "Will Stop At Nothing") which I wish to comment on. If some one think that does pictures are gruesome, they should wake up to the reality of Novorussia. Shame to all those who support this genocide (and genocide in Iraq, Afghanistan, Lybia + + + + +). When will enough be enough? I am so disappointed in humanity.

    Maripul massacre:

    kids killed:

    I agree with this analysis of the event in Odessa massacre.
    Odessa massacre: "Warning: strong images.

    This are my thoughts about what happend. It took place a false flag operation where footbal hooligans and maidan activists (visitors) met pro-Russian (anti - government) activists. There was a third group (mercenaries / assassins, Right sector), who pretended that they were anti-governments and activists who hit both groups to create chaos. This group conspired directly with the police and the security officers in the city. Another group had the task of getting people (the elderly, women and men, children who demonstrated the) outside the union building to escape into the building. On the outside was the first group (those who would wreak havoc in both camps) and threw firebombs at the building and shot or beaten up (some were killed) those who tried to escape the building.


    Into the building there was a death group, which had the task to turn off the water in the building (so no one could attempt to extinguish the fire they started), and kill all the people they found. The killers used basketball clubs, guns, knives, shovels, axes, and machette knife, poisonous gas, and what may look like a flamethrower (unsure). Many women were raped and later set on fire. Some were also strangled. These bands of criminals (right sector + +) was probably influenced by drugs, because rumour is that they carved out of human flesh from corpses and ate it. Many were tortured to death. l ( Further down the page there is a video of someone who gets leg cut off. Could be misinformation.)

    Some people were lucky and survived, while others were outright executed in the building. Warning: strong images

    Offenders have key relationships with the regime in Kiev.

    The order can be seen in the context of what may be seen as a NATO Gladio operation of the sniperkillings in Kiev during the maidan - demonstrations.

    German tv:

    [Jun 14, 2014] Some videos

    [Jun 13, 2014] The Odessa Massacre - What REALLY Happened

    Contrary to what the mainstream media has tried to convince you, it's not at all a mystery how the fire started in Odessa, Ukraine and it's not at all a mystery who started it. We owe it to the victims to expose what really happened.

    Full Transcript and sources:

    Sargon of Akkad

    Great job, keep up the excellent work.

    To anyone who is unsure: trust nothing in the Western media. They are all either unintentionally biased or outright liars. 

    Deborah J

    Freedom of the press is afforded only by those who own one. A.J. Liebling

    Finnian Cornelison

    It is almost as if Ukraine's leaders are on Russia's side and want Ukraine to split into two.

    [Jun 13, 2014] ANALYSIS US Refuses to Consider Kiev's Responsibility for Atrocities Against Civilians

    June 10, 2014 | RIA Novosti

    It isn't too surprising that the US refuses to even look into the fact that the government in Kiev is responsible for committing atrocities against civilians in eastern Ukraine, said Michael Hughes, a Washington D.C.-based journalist and foreign policy analyst.

    "The administration and State Department continue to redefine reality on the ground to justify their actions in installing a fascist-dominated regime," Hughes told RIA Novosti Monday.

    "In addition, they are adhering to the narrative that Russia is behind all of the instability in order to implement counterproductive sanctions against key Russian officials," he asserted.

    Despite the calls of the new Ukrainian president for a ceasefire, the Ukrainian army continues to shell the cities in Eastern Ukraine.

    Kiev authorities have been conducting this special military operation in the Eastern Ukraine to suppress the pro-independence movement since mid-April. The violence intensified after the Luhansk and Donetsk People's Republics declared independence from Ukraine in May. Hundreds have died in both regions over the past months.

    The new round of violence in Eastern Ukraine is in contradiction with Petro Poroshenko's promise to end violence, says American journalist in France, Diana Johnstone.

    "Obviously, ongoing military assaults on Slaviansk are in total contradiction with Mr Poroshenko's promise to end violence," Johnstone told RIA Novosti in response to reports of Ukrainian army shelling resuming in Slaviansk.

    "The die has been cast and Russophobes in Washington have won out, yet again, and are steering American policy. So we can expect the government and American media to downplay the mess we've made all because we chose to interfere in a region in which we have no legitimate interests," Hughes concluded.

    [Jun 13, 2014] Russia will investigate crimes against Eastern Ukrainian population committed by Ukrainian leadership

    Jun 13, 2014 |
    "None of those who committed and commit crimes in the South-East of Ukraine will get away from the deserved retribution. We'll get them even, as stated in the Declaration of 1943 the allied States, even from the bottom of the ocean, and they will sooner or later, face the moral, political, and criminal responsibility for the acts that they commit today against the people of Ukraine", - quotes ITAR-TASS statement Bastrykin during his speech at a meeting of the Foundation for military leaders and naval commanders on the occasion of the 120th anniversary of Marshal Fedor Ivanovich Tolbukhin.

    The head of the Investigative Committee opened a criminal case on the facts of crimes of an international nature in the South-East of Ukraine and created a special Department for investigation.

    "We will be guided not only criminal law but the norms of international law, which gives us the legal and moral right to pursue every member of the Ukrainian army, every commander, every commander, if you can call it generals and officers of the tanks and installations "Hailstones" firing on civilians," said Bastrykin.

    "This is an unprecedented event in the history of the wars of man, when the aircraft bombed hospitals, children's and maternity hospitals, civilians only for the fact that people want to be heard, I want to Express their opinion about what is happening regarding the future of themselves and their children and grandchildren," he stressed.

    He also reminded that Russia has initiated a number of criminal cases, including against the head of the organization "Right branch" Dmitry Yarosh (and "he declared in the international search"), as well as against members of UNA-UNSO.
    "Depending on the role of each of them, they are suspected of committing crimes, envisaged not only criminal law but the norms of international law". In particular, noticed Bastrykin, "conclusively established "that a number of these persons participated in combat actions during the events in Chechnya on the side of the militants.

    "These facts are documented. But this is only the beginning of the history of the investigation. Today we document, including by means of space technology, everything that happens in Ukraine. Together with special services and law enforcement authorities, we will work as long as each from the ordinary soldier of the Ukrainian army and to top executives, including Avakov, will not appear before international justice," said Bastrykin.

    Recall that on 4 June it became known that the Investigative Committee of Russia created special unit for investigation of crimes of an international character against civilians, committed on the territory of Ukraine.

    The office already investigated a number of criminal cases involving crimes against the Ukrainian and Russian citizens on the territory of Ukraine. In particular, the investigated criminal cases against members of UNA-UNSO - Mazur, Period, Yarosha, Korchinsky, brothers Tyagnibok, Hominy and others, on the fact of the injured Russian journalist Russia Today, Ukraine and others.

    In addition, the Investigative Committee of Russia intends to receive from independent sources data from satellites of different countries, showing the pattern of destruction, their number and locations of the Ukrainian military formations.

    With regard to persons involved in crimes against the civilian population, the IC of Russia intends to bring to criminal responsibility to both the government officials and the military commanders is directly involved in punitive operations, as well as to persons who gave orders and funding to killings of civilians. In this regard, the Investigative Committee of Russia intends to give a legal assessment of the actions Arsen Avakov, Igor Kolomoisky and other.

    [Jun 01, 2014] Turchinov and Yatsenyuk should face the Hague Tribunal

    All involved in the death of people in Odessa and in other crimes against civilians in Ukraine must appear before the Hague Tribunal. This was the statement Deputy Secretary of the Public chamber of the Russian Federation Vladislav Grib made may 6 at the press conference in Moscow.

    "Russia will insist and Turchynov, and Yatsenyuk, and the Governor of Odessa region were in the dock, " he said. - We remember Tribunal for Yugoslavia, there is more than enough [facts]. Russia should do this, and we're going to demand this from Russian authorities".

    The appropriate appeal is being prepared by the lawyers of the Public chamber, said Deputy head of the coordinating headquarters OP the Russian Federation on assistance to the residents of Ukraine Georgiy Fedorov. According to him, at present a list of the sacrament as to Odessa tragedy, and other acts of violence and violations of human rights in Ukraine, and in the list will include not only the leaders of the Kiev junta, but petty officials, implicated in crimes against humanity. Fedorov sure that appeal to international institutions should be regarded as a humiliation to the West. "We should work on other platforms, to use all the tools - diplomatic, legal, humanitarian and other, - he said. - We will break through the information blockade, to use every opportunity to attack this mode".

    In the world there are countries that understand what is actually happening in Ukraine, added Vladislav Grib, for example, Serbia and China are among them. Russia could bring the facts about the crimes of the Kyiv to the world community. "We don't want to be in isolation, we are looking for allies, " he said. - We are not referring to the Ukrainian junta, we want people in Europe, all policical organization learned about this. For that all these facts were translated into major European and world languages".

    Lawyers of the Public chamber of the Russian Federation are working on request and a list of the perpetrators with the utmost care so hat the documents were not rejected on formal grounds by aligned with NATO European structures.. According to Georgiy Fedorovhim, the appeal will be handed over to the Russian authorities in the coming weeks.

    Let's remind, the press conference of the members of the Public chamber of the Russian Federation on the situation in Ukraine was held in Moscow on 6 may. It was also attended by journalists, political scientists, sociologists and civil activists from Odessa and Kharkiv, who told about the situation in the southern and Eastern areas of Ukraine, where, according to them, there is a real war, unleashed a self-proclaimed Kiev authorities against their own people.

    [May 24, 2014] Protest against Parubiy and Kolomoisky held in Kiev

    Parubiy is a bird from Nuland's nest, former Yuschchenko honcho, instrumental in bringing Yushchenko to power as well as bringing to power the current junta.

    Protest was help in front of the building of the General Prosecutor's in Kiev. Protesters demanded the prompt investigation of resonant criminal cases. A group of residents of the capital required impartially to investigate the massacre on the Maidan and the burning of people in Odessa.

    About three dozen of people participate.. According to them, the law enforcement covers those who ordered those horrible crimes - Igor Kolomoisky and Andrew Parubiy.

    "An objective investigation no, although involvement in Odessa tragedy Kolomoisky said the former Governor of Odessa Vladimir Nemirovskiy," says Darya, the organizer of the rally.

    Earlier, ex-Chairman of the Odessa police Dmitry Fuchedzhi accused of involvement in Odessa tragedy the current head of the NSDC Andrew Parubiy.

    "Ведер не было, но были ампулы"

    Причиной трагедии в Одессе могло быть применение запрещенных отравляющих веществ

    23 мая 2014, 19:30
    Фото: Reuters
    Текст: Андрей Резчиков

    Погибшие в Доме профсоюзов в Одессе могли отравиться хлорпикрином – сильнодействующим ядом, который применялся во время Первой мировой войны. К такому выводу пришли российские эксперты. Теперь члены Общественной палаты намерены обратиться к МИДу, чтобы расследованием трагических событий в Одессе занялась Организация по запрещению химического оружия.

    Российские эксперты считают, что погибшие в Доме профсоюзов в Одессе могли отравиться хлорпикрином. Об этом на слушаниях в Общественной палате по ситуации на Украине сообщила член ОП Вероника Крашенинникова. "Российские эксперты по химическому оружию высказывают мнение по случаю в Одессе <...>, что 32 человека погибли от токсичных химикатов", – рассказала она.

    "А вдруг там что-то всплывет? Это будет для них полный скандал. Выборы и так вряд ли можно считать легитимными"

    В свою очередь замсекретаря палаты Владислав Гриб был шокирован заявлением о применении химоружия на Украине. "По этим фактам нам надо подготовить специальное заявление Общественной палаты", – призвал он.

    В пресс-службе ОП уточнили, что палата будет просить МИД России добиваться проведения Организацией по запрещению химического оружия (ОЗХО) расследования трагических событий в Одессе. Также будет подготовлено заявление в ЕСПЧ.

    Член палаты Сергей Орджоникидзе согласился с предложением Гриба и предложил ОЗХО провести соответствующее расследование по представленной информации. В разговоре с газетой ВЗГЛЯД он выразил уверенность, что химическое оружие мог применить "Правый сектор". "Но что конкретно они применяли, сейчас с точной уверенностью сказать трудно. Одни говорят одно, другие – другое. Но ясно, что не слезоточивый газ. Это было необычное отравляющее вещество, судя по смертельному эффекту, который оно произвело на людей в Доме профсоюзов", – отметил Орджоникидзе.

    Он убежден, что для выяснения всех причин случившегося необходимо провести тщательное независимое расследование. "Украинские власти что-то говорили, что они не против такого расследования. Но вряд ли это произойдет. Убийца никогда не будет заинтересован в расследовании собственного преступления. У меня большие сомнения в искренности украинской стороны, что они способны сами провести такое расследование. Вот беспристрастное международное расследование – совсем другое дело", – уверен он.

    Сергей Орджоникидзе назвал военным преступлением применение химического оружия против собственного населения. При этом он опасается, что идущая на юго-востоке страны гражданская война может помешать проведению независимого международного расследования. "Те люди, которые находятся сейчас у власти в результате государственного переворота, конечно, не заинтересованы в проведении этого расследования накануне выборов. А вдруг там что-то всплывет? Это будет для них полный скандал. Выборы и так вряд ли можно считать легитимными", – отметил он.

    Напомним, 2 мая в Одессе в ходе противостояния с футбольными фанатами и радикалами из "Правого сектора" сторонники федерализации были вынуждены укрыться в Доме профсоюзов. После этого украинские националисты подожгли здание, а тех, кто пытался спастись от огня, обстреливали и добивали палками и камнями. По данным МВД Украины, в результате беспорядков в тот день погибли 48 человек. При этом высказывались предположения, что жертв на самом деле могло быть гораздо больше. В частности, лидер движения "Юго-Восток" и экс-кандидат в президенты Украины Олег Царев говорил газете ВЗГЛЯД, что в Доме профсоюзов находилось "более ста убитых" и власти скрывали количество погибших.

    Сообщения, что массовая гибель людей в Доме профсоюзов связана с неким отравляющим веществом, появились на следующий день после трагедии. Так, 3 мая первый вице-премьер Украины Виталий Ярема отмечал, что люди "погибли внезапно, очень быстро" из-за горения "некоего вещества, которое выделяло газ".

    Позднее глава Службы безопасности Украины Валентин Наливайченко подтвердил, что в Доме профсоюзов было использовано неизвестное вещество. В СМИ появлялись сведения, что речь может идти о мощном опиате карфентаниле, используемом как обезболивающее для крупных животных. Замглавы МВД Украины в конце мая объявил, что следствие обнаружило в мусоре и саже в Доме профсоюзов следы хлороформа. Вдыхание человеком больших объемов этого вещества приводит к остановке дыхания, однако российские эксперты усомнились в этом: чтобы несколько десятков человек в помещении насмерть отравились этим веществом, "его нужно разлить многие десятки, если не сотни литров".

    Крашенинникова отметила, что, по оценке экспертов, для такого смертоносного эффекта необходимо очень большое количество хлороформа, измеряемое ведрами. "Ведер не было, но были ампулы, которые все видели на фотографиях", – сказала Крашенинникова.

    На этом фоне версия с хлорпикрином выглядит вполне правдоподобной. Это ядовитое вещество активно применялось в 1916–1917 годах, во времена Первой мировой войны, немцами, французами, англичанами и американцами. Пары хлорпикрина обладают сильным слезоточивым, а в высоких концентрациях – удушающим и общеядовитым действием. В советское время это средство обычно применяли для проверки противогазов в камере окуривания и в сельском хозяйстве для уничтожения вредителей. Сейчас оно по-прежнему используется в небольших количествах для имитации газовой атаки и проверочного тестирования средств химической защиты.

    В том, что против укрывшихся в Доме профсоюзов мог применяться хлорпикрин, уверен военный эксперт Георгий Колорадо. По его словам, это отравляющее вещество (ОВ) зеленоватого цвета при контакте с огнем превращается в фосген, вызывающий отек легких и мгновенную смерть. "Это ОВ в больших количествах имеется на складах украинской армии, что означает одно – украинские военачальники напрямую связаны с одесским преступлением", – считает Колорадо.

    Отметим, что летом 2008 года в порту Одессы был обнаружен контейнер, в котором под видом сушеных абрикосов скрывалась крупная партия отравляющих веществ, в том числе хлорпикрин. Вещество находилось в жестяных банках с надписью "Яд". Тогда власти объявили, что намерены вернуть контейнер обратно в Турцию, откуда он прибыл. В 2007 году случай отправления хлорпикрином был зафиксирован в Казахстане. Тогда пострадали несколько школьников.

    Павел Ворон, Москва

    Для всех, более умных чем я и способных всё объяснить, в том числе трусливую подлость - (с сайта оплот - инфо) 2 мая 2014 года в Доме Профсоюзов Одессы украинские нацисты сожгли заживо и убили другими способами более 200 человек. Среди убитых были дети. Стихотворение маленького мальчика: \

    Я иду по тёмному туннелю,
    а навстречу светит яркий свет,
    я иду и сам тому не верю,
    что меня на свете больше нет. ...

    Светлана Агапкина

    Да сейчас в любом здании столько разного рода пластика того же ПВХ (ПоливилХЛОРИДА), да плюс электропроводка с изоляцией.что при любом возгорании пожар превращается в химическую атаку. А наши конечно давай трепать про хим оружие.
    Ампулы нашли внутри ДП? А может от наркотиков или лекарств? Ну,да будут военные химоружие в ампулах выпускать, чтоб солдат- чуть ранение- уж точно задохнулся бы ...

    Виктор Шлюганов8 часов назад

    Я думаю наличие ампул и их принадлежность доказать проще простого, для начала. Не знаю, какое они имеют к этому отношение, но это надо сделать.

    Происхождение стекла, остатки надписей на многочисленных и раздавленных осколках, кто и когда поставлял - это интерес для неравнодушных исследователей.

    [May 23, 2014] The Senate's Bipartisan Ukraine Mistake

    The American Conservative

    Notable too were her comments on the May 2nd massacre in Odessa, which she described as "the death of more than 40 following an afternoon of violent clashes reportedly instigated by pro-Russian separatists…" This is too cute by half. The 46 people who were burned alive were pro-Russian demonstrators who barricaded themselves inside the second story of the trade union building in Odessa to escape the predations of a crowd of Right Sector militants.

    Consider the following account of the massacre in the New York Times:

    As the building burned, Ukrainian activists sang the Ukrainian national anthem, witnesses on both sides said. They also hurled a new taunt: "Colorado" for the Colorado potato beetle, striped red and black like the pro-Russian ribbons. Those outside chanted "burn Colorado, burn," witnesses said. Swastikalike symbols were spray painted on the building, along with graffiti reading "Galician SS," though it was unclear when it had appeared, or who had painted it.

    To this our UN Ambassador Samantha Power tweeted: "Fact that #Ukraine has taken steps to try to restore order and take back territory from separatists is what any nation would do." This is interesting not so much for the moral obtuseness on display as for the hypocrisy. Recall that only two months ago, when former Ukrainian president Yanukovych attempted to "restore order" on the Maidan, he was told by Vice President Biden to pull back his security forces "immediately."

    ... ... ...

    In the Q&A that followed, not one senator mentioned the massacre in Odessa. Sens. Boxer and Cardin did however express their sympathy for the missing Nigerian girls. All stressed the need for tougher sanctions on Russia and more "nonlethal tactical assistance" to the Ukrainian government. Some, like John Barrasso (R-Wyo.) and Ron Johnson (R-Wis.), complained the administration wasn't doing nearly enough.

    Yet overall the hearing was a show of bipartisanship in the very worst sense; not one senator present dissented from the prevailing view that a) the Russians are the primary cause for the crisis in Ukraine and b) Ukraine represents a core U.S. national security interest. As the violence continues to spiral out of control ahead of the May 25th elections, the Congress and the administration find themselves, for once, in complete and serene agreement that the policy of material support for the regime in Kiev, and of ever-tighter encirclement of Russia, is indeed the right one. Let's hope they are right.

    James Carden is a TAC contributing editor and served as an advisor to the U.S.-Russia Bilateral Presidential Commission at the State Department from 2011-2012.

    Правозащитники усомнились в объективности расследования Киевом событий в Одессе

    24 мая 2014 |
    Киевские власти склонны оправдывать сторонников единства Украины, а потому их расследование трагических событий в Одессе не внушает доверия, заявила заместитель директора европейского и центральноазиатского отделения правозащитной организации Human Rights Watch Рейчел Денбер.

    "Эти тяжелые преступления требуют серьезного, беспристрастного и тщательного расследования. Мы понимаем, что ведется четыре расследования, но тут важно не их число, а четкость и эффективность в плане привлечения виновных к ответственности", - сказала Денбер. По ее словам, это должно быть сделано ради жертв и пострадавших, передает РИА "Новости".

    "Склонность правительства оправдывать сторонников единства в преступлениях не внушает доверия, это по меньшей мере. HRW будет тщательно следить за расследованием, и мы будем призывать международное сообщество внимательно все это изучать", - заявила представитель правозащитной организации.

    Напомним, 2 мая в Одессе в ходе противостояния с футбольными фанатами и радикалами из "Правого сектора" сторонники федерализации были вынуждены укрыться в Доме профсоюзов. После этого украинские националисты подожгли здание, а тех, кто пытался спастись от огня, обстреливали и добивали палками и камнями.

    По данным МВД Украины, в результате беспорядков 2 мая в Одессе погибли 48 человек.

    В ведомстве сообщили, что на месте пожара в Доме профсоюзов были найдены следы хлороформа, это вещество якобы стало причиной смерти 32 человек. Шесть человек погибли от огнестрельных ранений, еще 10 выпали из окон во время пожара и разбились.

    Ранее российские эксперты заявили, что во время пожара в Доме профсоюзов в Одессе к укрывшимся в здании могло быть применено химоружие времен Первой мировой войны. В этой связи российские власти обратились к Организации по запрещению химического оружия (ОЗХО) с просьбой провести расследование событий в Одессе.

    Накануне Дмитрий Фучеджи, который руководил действиями одесской милиции во время беспорядков 2 мая и не смог предотвратить нападение радикалов, рассказал, что те трагические события были провокацией киевских властей.

    Он признался, что боевики Майдана начали прибывать в город еще в апреле. А когда 2 мая все началось, руководство МВД было отправлено центральными властями на совещание.

    Victims of Odessa massacre were killed by phoroform


    Начальник главного следственного управления МВД Украины Виталий Сакал сообщил журналистам, что в мусоре и саже, которые изъяли из Дома профсоюзов Одессы, по данным судебно-медицинской экспертизы, был обнаружен хлороформ, который и мог послужить причиной гибели большого количества людей.

    - Вдыхание паров хлороформа - есть соответствующий вывод экспертизы - приводит к остановке дыхания, что и произошло у нас. 32 человека погибли не от высокой температуры, а в результате воздействия неизвестного вещества, остановки сердца и удушья, - буквально заявил Сакал и добавил: - По словам экспертов, если хлороформ долго находится в воздухе и контактирует с ним, то он переходит в опасное вещество. И даже не нужно его нагревание, его вдыхание приводит к непоправимым последствиям для здоровья.

    Теперь остается выяснить и то, как хлороформ, который уже давно не применяется как наркоз в медицине при операциях, попал внутрь здания и кто его туда привез.

    Напомним, глава МИД России Сергей Лавров также сказал, что в Доме профсоюзов могли применяться "отравляющие химические вещества". Однако в российском МИДе считают, что расследовать только эту версию крайне некорректно, а надо учитывать все факторы, в том числе подвоз наемников, вооружение толпы, стрельбу на поражение и добивание тех, кто пытался спастись.

    Одесситы Нас заставили вспомнить о кровной мести! by Евгения СУПРЫЧЕВА

    17 мая 2014 | KP.UA

    События 2 мая заставили вздрогнуть и всю страну, и весь мир. Одесские дворы не помнят такого количества похорон со времен войны. Но первый шок прошел. И теперь Украина гадает: что дальше? Какой ответ даст Одесса? На просторах интернета призывают к мести: вспомните, что вы город-герой. Начитавшись, ожидала застать Одессу в истерике. Но Одесса не кричит. Она шепчет: во дворах, на остановках, в ресторанах.

    - Встречаешь знакомого. Говоришь о погоде. Но при этом сканируешь его: за или против... И он тебя сканирует. Сейчас все очень осторожны, - говорит местный житель Дмитрий, с которым познакомились у сожженного Дома профсоюзов.

    Одесса старается не нагнетать. Хочешь говорить на украинском? Говори. Вы можете себе представить в Славянске кондуктора троллейбуса который "толкает речь" на мове. У такого кондуктора любая следующая остановка станет конечной. А в Одессе - без проблем. Или Привоз, где половина торговцев - жители области и говорят на украинском. И продажи у них не падают. Но это не означает, что Одесса и Львов слились в одном порыве. Да, вы не увидите в городе российских флагов. Но и украинские придется поискать.

    - Одесса сняла с себя всю символику. Люди не хотят получить шальную пулю, зная, что пошли разборки между кланами, - пожимают плечами коллеги из местной редакции. - Почитай городские новости. У нас жгут машины со львовскими номерами. По данным милиции, уже больше десяти авто сгорело. Недавно избили и сожгли квартиру местного активиста "Правого сектора" Сергея Левитаненко.

    Итак, в Одессе началась "партизанская война". Между кланами, которые вчера сражались по разные стороны баррикады.

    - Наше движение разбито. Одни погибли, другие в тюрьме, третьи в розыске. Но есть и те, кто остался на свободе. И мы хотим мести, просто потому, что это по-мужски, - один из участников Антимайдана Николай, крепкий мужик в бейсболке, хмуро наблюдает, как бабушки несут цветы на Куликово поле. - Тут, помимо прочего, много личного. Одесса ведь большая деревня. Мы все знаем друг друга. Кто-то уедет домой на запад, а местные останутся. С ними и посчитаемся. Знаешь, что такое кровная месть? Они заставили нас об этом вспомнить.

    Все хостелы забиты крепкими парнями. И по утрам они демонстративно тренируются на детских площадках. Эта наглядная демонстрация силы и власти: не вздумайте бунтовать - мы еще в городе. Их много, потому их не трогают. Но местные активисты уже серьезно напряглись. Так, договорились о встрече с членом одесской ячейки ПР Сергеем Стерненко. Паренек явно нервничает, ему неуютно среди толпы, и мы ныряем в местный барчик.

    - Конечно, надо помнить о мерах безопасности. Мы, допустим, больше не ездим в общественном транспорте. Раз в три дня меняем место жительства, - говорит, косясь на соседний столик, где нервно глотают кофе еще пятеро подростков. - Но, с другой стороны, если в городе появятся те, кто в бегах, мы узнаем об этом первыми и "встретим".

    - Но, может, беглецов поддержат,- пожимаю плечами.

    - Это вряд ли. Вот Антимайдан объявил, что сегодня пройдет марш от Куликова поля. Кто пришел на этот марш?

    - Вообще-то никто, человек десять...

    Парень приподнял бровь, мол, этим все сказано.

    На самом деле странно. Две силы дерутся между собой, но мирные жители держат нейтралитет. Интересно почему? Да, они напуганы. Но ведь именно страх побуждает людей в действию. К захватам, к референдуму и призыву о помощи к соседу. По такому сценарию пошел народ на востоке.

    - В Одессе не так сильны пророссийские настроения, - считает активист одесского Евромайдана Сергей Гуцалюк - крепкий мужик в очках, по образованию историк. - В Украине многие скучают по Советскому Союзу. Но не мы. Ведь что такое Одесса? Это дефицит из-под полы. Город контрабандистов и фарцовщиков. Одни везут, другие торгуют, третьи крышуют. И всем мешает ОБХСС. Раньше даже была поговорка: не ешь много на ночь - ОБХСС приснится. Потому все вздохнули полной грудью, когда Союз распался.

    Одесса прикинула: что такое Россия? Это путинский порядок. Кому он интересен в этом авантюрном городе? Плюс это передел бизнеса. Жителям востока в этом плане терять нечего, там теряют только олигархи. А тут процветает мелкий бизнес. Свои лавочки, поставки, наработанные связи. Выбей один кирпич - и зашатает каждого. Но, пожалуй, главная причина, почему одесситы резко притормозили после трагедии 2 мая, - это непонимание ситуации. Им казалось, они знают, чего ждать от Евромайдана. Он им казался ручным и скучным.

    Каждый вечер пара сотен человек собирается у памятника Дюка. Выбирает Народную Раду. Потом перевыбирает. И так по кругу. Лишнего места не занимают, палаточный городок не разбивают.

    - Кстати, почему? - интересуюсь у активистов Евромайдана.

    - А зачем? - отвечают.

    Логично. Плюс тамошний контингент из неженок: историки, актрисы. Камуфляж и берцы - не их фасон. С "Правым сектором" отношения формальны. Их тут не считали реальной силой. Местное отделение - до сотни человек. На врагов не тянут: говорят на чистом русском, но чаще помалкивают. И вплоть до последнего времени болтались где-то на периферии событий.


    Теперь об Антимайдане. Договорились о встрече с одним из активистов. В условленное время к ресторану подъехал спортивный "Порш". Ну елки, такие машины и в Киеве не часто встретишь. Из него выходит подтянутый мужчина лет сорока, а следом его подруга - из тех, кто выигрывает конкурсы а-ля "Бикини-2013".

    - Как обычно, - дает распоряжение официанту Александр (мужчина просил не называть фамилию, потому как в Одессе человек известный держит рестораны и гостиницу). Официант бегом метнулся за грогом.

    А Александр, помогая подруге прикурить, вспоминал о событиях на Куликовом поле:

    - Я тебе так скажу: сепаратистов там не было. За Россию никто не кричал. Мы же с ней даже не граничим.

    - Новороссия?

    - Непризнанная республика? Корабли обходят наш порт стороной, у моряков возникают проблемы с визами? Как говорят в Одессе: забудь за такие глупости. Официальные требования: референдум, русский язык как второй государственный и вхождение в Таможенный союз.

    - В чем заключался конкретно ваш интерес: вы баллотируетесь?

    - Мой? Мне казалось, что в список официальных требований надо включить порто-франко. Ты представляешь, как бы расцвел город?

    Порто-франко - режим беспошлинной торговли. У Одессы была такая привилегия в XIX веке. И собственно она сделала Одессу богатейшим городом Европы. Так что требование имеет право на жизнь.

    - Вы спонсировали Антимайдан?

    - Нет. Я включился уже на бегу. Там изначально было всего несколько палаток. Первую заняли святоши. Их собрал известный в Одессе поборник православия, у него есть своя организация, журнал какой-то. Во второй палатке жили обычные пенсионеры, из тех, кто ездит на трамваях и скучает по Союзу. Для них поставили палатку местные политики, которые баллотировались на волне пророссийских настроений. Но волна им была нужна небольшая, без "тяжелых" последствий. Потому Народная дружина, которая собралась для охраны митингов, ничего не штурмовала и не захватывала.


    Действительно, поначалу движение не было массовым. В палатках ночевали не более 20 человек. Митинги собирали до пяти тысяч. Для миллионной Одессы - это капля в море. На первый взгляд неопасно.

    - Оба лагеря вели переговоры. Три месяца кропотливой работы. Подписывали договора о "ненападении". Согласовывали время шествий, - говорит эксперт Украинского центра социальной аналитики Валерий Писецкий. - Для многих дружба с идеологическим врагом за гранью понимания, но не этом городе. В Одессе не принято хлопать дверями. В Одессе договариваются.

    И до 2 мая им удавалось находить компромиссы.


    Хотя тревожные звоночки были. Незадолго до столкновений вдруг взбунтовалась Народная дружина. Долгое время они просто несли караул у палаток. Затем пошли разговоры о захвате зданий. Лидер Народной дружины некий Сергей Долженков по кличке Капитан Какао решил сколотить армию. Объявил набор через интернет.

    По Одессе пошел слух, что дружина "делает свой интерес". Возможно, получила заказ на раскачку ситуации в области. В итоге на Куликовом поле поскандалили и дружина перенесла свой лагерь. А на следующий день была война. Дружина рвалась в бой, забыла о компромиссах.

    - Они умышленно спровоцировали драку. Далее: сакральные жертвы, массовые митинги и захваты зданий. Одним словом, отыгрывали сценарий Мариуполя, - считает активист Евромайдана Сергей Гуцалюк.

    В то же время не дружина придумала провести "мирное шествие" проукраинских сил по Одессе.

    - На самом деле за два дня до столкновений в Одессу приезжал Парубий (глава СНБО Андрий Парубий). Встает вопрос: зачем? Есть подозрения, что давал последние наставления самообороне. Надо понимать, что в проекте под названием "Новороссия" есть два ключевых города: Харьков и Одесса. Но именно в Одессе решили провести "показательную порку", - считает эксперт Украинского центра социальной аналитики Валерий Писецкий.

    Впрочем, есть версия, что ситуацию использовала некая третья сила. И работали провокаторы. Эта версия очень популярна в городе. Одесситы не верят, что они могли так изменить себе и допустить побоище. Город взял паузу и размышляет: а не сыграли ли нас "в темную"? Трагедия должна была расколоть город, но случилось обратное. Да, местные активисты еще перезарядят и выстрелят. Но Одессу больше волнует другое - незваные гости.

    - Кто первый к нам с оружием придет - тот и проиграл. И без разницы будет это Национальная гвардия или "крымская самооборона", - рассуждают на Привозе.

    Короче, "против всех", но за Одессу. И если она отвернется от Украины - не вините в этом город. Неужели она виновата в том, что не потерпит террора? Или в том, что кто-то спровоцировал трагедию? И даже если Одесса вновь заговорит о федерации и русском языке, даже если потребует порто-франко, то в чем проблема? Может, в твердолобости и отказе от переговоров. В результате этой "мудрой" политики мы уже потеряли Крым и можем потерять восток. И если от нас отвернется богемная, яркая, манящая Одесса, то тут уже настанет черед снова подниматься всей Украине.


    Одесскую область лихорадит от слухов.

    "Донецкая народная республика" во многом состоялась благодаря поддержке жителей области. Там много раз брали штурмом Донецкую обладминистрацию и всегда только на пару часов. Некому было удерживать, пока не подтянулись отряды из области. Любопытно, не формируются ли похожие отряды в Одесской области?

    - Такого не наблюдаем. Но наш регион лихорадит от слухов: мы граничим с Приднестровьем, где базируется российский военный контингент. И примерно раза три в неделю нам приходится опровергать слухи о вводе российских танков. Плюс народ очень боится провокаций на границе, - уверяет журналист "Балтийского портала" Олег Осадчук.

    Но Одесская область велика. К примеру, в Измаильском районе ситуация иная.

    - У нас уже сформированы отряды самообороны. Одни за Антимайдан, другие - против. 2 мая между ними было столкновение, но обошлось без жертв, - говорит шеф-редактор измаильского проекта "Сити" Игорь Бутров. - Слухов о "Правом секторе" тоже много. Потому с целью проверки приезжал батальон "Киев-1" (сформирован при МВД Украины из добровольцев). И если кто вызвал в городе панический ужас, то именно они. Все в балаклавах, случайный набор камуфляжа. Приготовились к массовой эвакуации. Но сейчас страсти улеглись.

    Улеглись на улицах и разгорелись на избирательных участках.

    - Наблюдатели отказываются ехать на избирательные участки в область. Члены избирательных комиссий уходят, боятся давления и провокаций. Притом ушло уже не просто один-два человека. Я бы сказал, что это тенденция, - уверяет руководитель одесского комитета избирателей Анатолий Бойко.

    [May 19, 2014] The Ukrainian City That Refuses to Implode by David Frum

    The Atlantic

    Carpe Pectora • 12 hours ago

    "That Friday, more than 1,000 pro-Ukrainians marched through Odessa, singing patriotic songs and chanting anti-Putin slogans."

    Isn't it amazing how subtle propaganda can be? Both sides of this are "pro-Ukrainian". One side supports the lawfully elected government that was ousted with support of the West. The other supports the unelected government presently running the country.

    At least the Atlantic doesn't call the newly installed government "pro-democratic". I suppose they do have some standards.

    trythemiddle > Carpe Pectora • 11 hours ago

    You seem to have neglected the side that fully supports the "duly elected government of Russia". Unless you believe that a couple thousand guys all happened to go to the local army/navy store and buy identical military grade gear and the military vehicles to transport themselves around with.

    Carpe Pectora > trythemiddle • 11 hours ago

    Don't get me wrong here. There are no "good guys" in this. But if you think that the neo-Nazi trouble makers that were the backbone of the "peaceful protests" were not just as inspire by the CIA you are incredibly naive.

    I put peaceful protesters in quotation marks, because even while they were lobbing Molotov cocktails and burning government buildings, they were being called "peaceful protesters", and when government forces fired on them, it was an outrage.

    Now, when forces funded and supported by the Kremlin (instead of the CIA) do the same things, they are "violent separatists" who get sho as part of government "anti-terror" operations.

    Carpe Pectora > AmosJones • 10 hours ago

    To copy and paste

    "The All-Ukrainian Union "Svoboda" (Ukrainian: Всеукраїнське об'єднання "Свобода", Vseukrayinske obyednannia "Svoboda"), translated as Freedom, is a Ukrainian nationalist political party,[2] and currently one of the five major parties of the country.[9] Three members of the party hold positions in Ukraine's government.

    The party was founded in 1991 as the Social-National Party of Ukraine"

    So they are the Social-National Party-not the National Socialist party. A totally different thing! LOL

    librtee_dot_com > AmosJones • 9 hours ago

    Typical ignorant Atlantic Reader - suffering from the worse kind of ignorance, believing you are not ignorant.

    Svoboda party holds sec. education, agriculture, interior, defense (since removed I believe), and Vice PM.

    Svoboda is the largest party of the 'Far Right' coalition.

    There have been rallies in Kiev of 10s of thousands of 'Far Right' members, all shouting fascist/ultra-nationalist slogans and displaying fascist symbols, such as the wolfsangel, and imagery.

    They proudly march under banners of Banderas, a Nazi collaborating Ukranian nationalist whose vision was of Ukranian blood purity within the borders of Ukraine. While Banderas himself fell out of favor with the Nazis, his OUN-B was the most ideologically similar to naziism among the various Ukranian groups at the time (fighting for Ukranian racial purity). Banderas believed the Ukraine's two great enemies in the world were the Soviet Union and Jews...notice a similarity?

    Banderas is the single most popular historical figure among the far right crowd, so calling them as a group 'Neo-nazi' is not out of bounds.

    Here was have, last week, the Kiev appointed governor of Kherson praising Hitler as the 'liberator of Ukraine'

    (google: Ukraine: Kherson governor praises Adolf Hitler as 'liberator' addressing veterans on Victory Day)

    By 'tool,' you meant a 'useful implement that builds things,' right?

    daniel > AmosJones • 8 hours ago

    Wait, Amos Jones, you actually did not know that Svoboda and Right Sector are avowed neo-Nazi groups? This does not reflect badly on you, so much as it shows how deficient the American press has been about informing its readers.

    These are not pro-Putin talking points, they are the depressing facts. And nobody on this thread is to my knowledge a fan of the disgusting and murderous Putin.

    Now that you know that they are in fact Nazi parties does that force you to reassess a little bit.

    Carpe Pectora > trythemiddle • 9 hours ago

    I would say the group that followed the constitution of the country to impeach the president and elect a new one would be the good guys. Oh wait, that would be no one!

    As for Putin buying off the country, there were two offers on the table to "buy off" Ukraine's debt-one from the EU and one from Russia. The elected president of the country chose the offer from Russia.

    In a democracy that is how it works and if people don't like it, they follow the rule of law and elect a new president.

    ForrestGumpsOfAmerica 10 hours ago

    "One protester called Albu, who said he had been barricaded in the building, told Russia Today the Ukrainian ultra-nationalist Right Sector was to blame for the attack. He said the activists threw in stun grenades and tear gas, adding: "When we were finally able to jump out of the window from the second floor, we were met by the Right Sector radicals. They beat us using bats and chains".

    Here is what Henry Kissinger said on the current situation in Ukraine

    Here is an interesting opinion published in Guardian

    Here is the capture showing the speech made on May 9 2014 by the Governor of the Kherson region of Ukraine (appointed by the current Kiev Ukrainian ruling regime),
    where he describes Hitler as the liberator of Ukraine (from the yoke of the Russian-Soviet Communist regime )

    ForrestGumpsOfAmerica 10 hours ago

    Here is what USA State Department stated with regards to tragic events in Odessa:
    "The United States condemned the violence that led to the fire.

    "The violence and mayhem that led to so many senseless deaths and injuries is unacceptable," Marie Harf, a U.S. State Department spokeswoman, said.

    The events that led to the fire "underscore the need for an immediate de-escalation of tensions in Ukraine," Harf said."
    State's Rubin at House Hearing on U.S. Policy Toward Ukraine
    U.S. Department of State
    Testimony of Eric Rubin
    Deputy Assistant Secretary, Bureau of European and Eurasian Affairs
    Statement Before the House Foreign Affairs Committee
    Washington, DC
    March 6, 2014
    "I would also like to state before this committee that the United States is monitoring the reports of anti-Semitic acts extremely closely. We know that some organizations have expressed concern about the treatment of the Jewish community in Ukraine. We continue to emphasize to the leadership of all Ukrainian parties that there is no place for anti-Semitism in Ukraine's future."

    ForrestGumpsOfAmerica -> marathag 8 hours ago

    Crimes committed by NKVD do not excuse crimes committed against Jews by the Bandera OUN/ UPA movement during WW2.
    "The Lviv pogroms were two massacres of Jews living in and near in the city of Lwów, the occupied Poland (now Lviv,Ukraine), that took place from 30 June to 2 July and 25–29 July 1941 during World War II. According to Yad Vashem, 60,000 Jews were killed by Einsatzgruppen, some Ukrainian nationalists and Ukrainian militia. "

    ForrestGumpsOfAmerica -> marathag 6 hours ago

    In fact - Putin is indeed tied to NKVD's policy and today's Ukranian party "Right Sector" (who's members are part of current Ukrainian Kiev Government) is indeed tied to Bandera OUN/UPA.
    Right Sector (Pravy/Pravyi Sektor) is a Ukrainian nationalist political party.[1] In its earlier manifestation as a paramilitary confederation of radical right-wing groups, it provided logistical support and tactical leadership at the Euromaidan protests in Kiev.

    The coalition was organized in November 2013.[2] Founding far-right groups include Trident (Tryzub), led by Dmytro Yarosh and Andriy Tarasenko, and the Ukrainian National Assembly–Ukrainian National Self Defence (UNA–UNSO), a political/paramilitary group.[2][3] Other far-right, racist and Ukrainian neo-Nazi founding groups include the Patriots of Ukraine, White Hammer and the Social-National Assembly.[4][5] White Hammer was expelled in March 2014.[6]

    Right Sector became a political party on 22 March 2014, at which time it was estimated to have perhaps 10,000 members.[7][8]

    bartofsky ForrestGumpsOfAmerica 20 minutes ago

    Putin ties to NKVD is lesser the USA president George Bush, Sr. ties to the american version of same, CIA.
    But oranges aren't melons. However powerful NKVD was, it was implementing certain ideas of the state, not its own, the sane way CIA/NSA do. The "Right Sector" is a political organization with direct roots to Petlura and later Bandera.

    daniel 8 hours ago
    Frum lets his sympathies get in the way of the facts here. There is not much REAL doubt as to how the fire at the trade union building started; it was attacked and firebombed by a pro-Ukraine mob. Implying that this is only a 50 percent probability, as he does, is extraordinarily deceptive.

    Blaming Odessa police inertness when the mob attacked on Yanukovych era corruption is absurdist misdirection (the police in Odessa largely side with the new powers in Kiev/Lvov). Also, it falsely implies that there has been anything but massive corruption at other points in Ukraine's post-communist history. For a short and revolting lesson in pre-Yanukovych corruption, read 'Dirty Yulia': http://internationalboulevard....

    Likewise suggesting that the Ukrainian nationalist takeover represents 'democracy' to the pro-Russian authoritarianism of previously is a fake distinction: they both represent different strands of oligarchic authoritarianism.

    In short, Frum has taken the usual foreign journalist path of picking a 'good guy' side in a situation where there aren't any, and twisting everything to fit that narrative.

    blowtorch_bob 7 hours ago

    Meanwhile the Wall Street Journal is opening the door of its oped page to Nazis. Here, Andriy Parubiy, the founder of Ukraine's Nationalist Socialist Party and current minister in charge of security, makes an appeal for US military aid.

    John H Newcomb 34 minutes ago

    Perhaps deeper analysis of the Odessa tragedy would include the role of the massive numbers of soccer hooligans:

    Reporter attributes participation by Single Ukraine to this group of young women filling molotov bottles:

    More young women smiling nonchalantly carrying their molotovs past police:

    There DOES need to be a full inquiry as demanded by joint Human Rights Watch - Amnesty International:

    [May 17, 2014] Ukraine The waiting game By Pepe Escobar

    May 13, 2014 |Asia Times Online

    Yet once again, there's concrete proof that the NATO neo-liberal neo-fascist junta does not want to negotiate anything. Farcical "acting" President Oleksandr Turchynov labeled the exercise in direct democracy a "farce, which terrorists call the referendum"; and Washington and Brussels branded it "illegal".

    And all this after the Odessa massacre; after the deployment of neo-nazi paramilitaries disguised as a "National Guard" (the goons US corporate media calls "Ukrainian nationalists"); dozens of CIA and FBI agents on the ground; plus 300 of the inevitable Academi - former Blackwater - mercenaries. What else to expect when the current Ukrainian Secretary for National Security is neo-nazi Andriy Parubiy, the previous commander of the Maidan's "self-defense forces" and a cheerleader of World War II nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera.

    Banderastan - with its remix of 1980s Central American-style death squads - doesn't do referendums; they'd rather burn to death ethnic Russian civilian "insects" who dare to occupy buildings.

    So this is the key message of the referendums. We reject the Kiev NATO neo-liberal neo-fascist junta. It's an illegal "government" of putschists. We are not "pro-Russian" separatists. We don't want to secede. What we want is a unified, federal and civilized Ukraine, with strong autonomous provinces.

    R2P, anyone?

    The Empire of Chaos wants - what else - chaos. Crucially, the Empire of Chaos now blatantly supports the deployment of an "army against their own population"; this was strictly verboten - punishable by NATO bombs or NATO-enabled jihad - in Libya and Syria, but now is just the new normal in Ukraine.

    In Libya and in Syria - they tried three times at the UN - this would be the ultimate pretext for R2P ("responsibility to protect"). But in Ukraine the "terrorists" - Dubya-era terminology included - are the population, and the good guys are the Kiev neo-nazi militias. US ambassador to the UN and top R2P cheerleader Samantha Power exceeded all her previous levels of batshit craziness when she depicted the NATO junta onslaught against civilians as "reasonable" and "proportional", adding that "any of our countries" would have done the same in face of such a threat.

    Berlin, for its part, wants, tentatively, to go the diplomatic way, although there's a clear split between stony Atlanticists and German captains of industry - who have identified clearly how Washington is aiming no holds barred to destroy the Russo-German economic synergy. The Empire of Chaos's game is to erect a wall between them, manifested in practice by a Russian "invasion". It's true that Moscow could easily pull a Samantha and invoke R2P to protect Russians and Russophones in Ukraine. But chessmaster Putin knows better than to invent a new Afghanistan in his western borderlands.

    For Berlin all that matters is the economy. Germany will grow by 1.9% at best in 2014. With 6,200 German businesses in Russia and over 300,000 German jobs depending on two-way trade, American-style sanctions are beyond counter-productive, although Russophobia and Cold War 2.0 hysteria remains somewhat rampant.

    Paris, for instance, has seen the writing on the wall. The US$1.66 billion contract to sell two Mistral-class helicopter carriers to Russia will go ahead, as Paris diplomats admitted the cancellation - in terms of penalties and lost jobs - would hurt France much more than Russia.

    Chris Harrison · School of Hard Knocks, University of Life

    Stephen Cohen criticized the US government on Monday for its unwavering support of the Kiev government.

    Appearing on Democracy Now!, Cohen addressed this weekend's hastily convened referendum on self-rule in Eastern Ukraine, calling it "no more or less legal than the government in Kiev," which seized power in February.

    Cohen condemned the US response to attacks by Ukrainian troops in the Eastern cities of Mariupol and Odessa, where dozens of pro-Russian protesters were killed in a fire two weeks ago. "What did the US government say?" Cohen asked, "Did it say 'we regret the loss of life?' Did it say, 'there should be an investigation?' No. It said, 'Kiev has the right to restore law and order.'"

    If a war crime was committed in Eastern Ukraine, warns Cohen, "we applauded it."

    Catine Perkins

    Stephen F. Cohen is .in all probability, the most insightful SCHOLAR, in understanding Russia and her people. The Russian and Soviet leaders understood this and truly respected him. Too bad, few Americans understood his abilities in our relationship, for smooth sailing and truly trading with Russia.

    Does anyone know why the continuous hate virus towards Russia and her people?

    ... ... ...

    Chris Harrison · School of Hard Knocks, University of Life

    Link to the official US government website for USAID.

    That US government site officially states that USAID INCREASES SUPPORT FOR MEDIA AND PRESS FREEDOM IN UKRAINE

    For Immediate Release
    Friday, May 2, 2014
    USAID Press Office

    This support takes place on May 2, 2014- the very same day of the Odessa look at what the Kiev Post publishes on May 3,2014, the very next day...

    Headline at link reads:

    Police say pro-Russians accidentally set fatal Odessa fire with Molotov cocktails (LIVE UPDATES, VIDEO)
    Print version
    May 3, 2014, 6:45 p.m. | Ukraine - by Kyiv Post

    Now take a look at the way these people died....and attempt to figure out all these "accidents"...Warning graphic photos: Pictures are of corpses in various states of death.

    Odessa massacre victims died in seconds, not from smoke – emergency service chief - RT News

    May 15, 2014

    Victims of the Odessa fire massacre died within seconds, but not from smoke or carbon monoxide suffocation, the head of Odessa's emergency service department, Vladimir Bodelan, said on his Facebook page.

    Violent clashes erupted on May 2 between rival rallies of anti-government protesters and radicals supporting the coup-imposed authorities in Kiev. The confrontation led to a tragedy that left 48 people dead and 247 injured as nationalists burnt the protester camp and then set fire to the Trade Unions House with anti-Kiev activists trapped inside. According to witnesses, many of those who managed to escape the flames were then strangled or beaten with bats by radicals.

    "I'm sure that 99.9 percent of the people were killed in the Trade Unions House within seconds and did not suffocate from smoke...[or burn in the] fire. But there are forensic experts, we will wait for their findings," Bodelan said.

    Bodelan was by the building when it was set on fire and said that even before the smoke spread inside, he saw people leaning outside windows trying to take a breath of fresh air.

    "I cannot explain why they were having such trouble breathing, but I am 100 percent sure that it was not because of the smoke caused by the fire," Bodelan said.

    He added that there was a bang after the fire started inside the building, which apparently extinguished the blaze on the central staircase. "In that second, a few people jumped from the building...The majority of them were alive and they were even able to walk on their own two feet. But a couple dozen meters later, they lost consciousness and fell to the ground, with their tragic end known to all."

    He witnessed rescuers carrying more than 350 individuals out of the building while others who managed to jump out of the windows were heavily beaten by radicals – which led to many choosing to stay inside the building.

    Bodelan said that several thousand individuals who were gathered outside the building prevented firefighters from getting close to the scene of the fire for quite some time.

    "The worst thing in this situation was that fire brigades that arrived at the site on time could not begin putting out the fire because the attackers were shooting and resisting," he said.

    All of Bodelan's attempts to increase police presence in the area went unanswered.

    "I was forced to negotiate with activists, who looked to me as heads of fighter units, that we could work calmly," he said.

    At the same time, Kiev has made public its report, in which it also revealed what caused the death of nearly 50 people. According to "official information," six people died of gun shots, 32 suffocated or died in the flames and another 10 fell to their deaths.

    Forty-eight of those killed in the massacre have been identified by both local and social media. Three bodies people are still considered missing, according to various sources. Over 60 people remain in hospitals, 26 of whom are in grave condition.

    Residents of Odessa gathered last weekend for a memorial service to commemorate the victims of the May 2 bloodshed.

    [May 15, 2014] Is Paul Goble Just Pretending to be an Idiot?

    Moscow Exile

    May 15, 2014 at 11:01 am The news has broken on RT:

    Kiev protégé allegedly behind Mariupol and Odessa massacres – leaked tapes

    Here's the key information from the second leaked conversation:

    The second leaked conversation, which also emerged on May 14, was between Oleg Noginsky, the president of the Suppliers of Customs Union, an organization which aims at increasing the turnover between Ukraine and the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Russia, and someone whom he called Yan Borisovich. Noginsky said that Kolomoisky's actions are mad.

    "Besides, it was he [Kolomoisky] who hired the guys in the Odessa [massacre]… the situation went out of control. Their task was to beat them [anti-government protesters] so they would be taken to hospital and to destroy the camp [on Kulikovo Pole Square] completely," he said.

    And sweet FA will be done about any of this, of course. Just like nothing has been done about the Ashton Maidan-sniper-"gosh" tape.

    Bear in mind, everybody but everybody knows that that shit Kolomoiskiy uses his football hooligan fascist army as a terror squad – his brownshirts so to speak.

    Everybody in East and South Ukraine, that is.

    Elsewhere, such an accusation is classified as "Kremlin propaganda".


    May 15, 2014 at 11:58 am

    Okay, here is the translation into English of the 2 wiretapped phone conversations posted here. The purpose of publicizing these calls was to provide supportive evidence for the theory that Igor Kolomoisky was behind the Odessa Trade Union Building fire.

    Both conversations are in Russian, conveniently accompanied by a typed transcription into Russian. Conversation #1 reads like a scene from a gangster movie, like The Sopranos, so I used American idiomatic gangster slang in my translation.

    Conversation #2 is actually quite a literary masterpiece in the original Russian, and reads more like a Chekhov play. Or maybe a Broadway literary play, something like "My Dinner with Andre", in which 2 Jews discuss how their tribe might be harmed by the murderous actions of this one rogue Jewish oligarch.

    Second conversation is quite long, in my haste to get it out there, I just did a passable job of translation, went for linguistic accuracy without trying to get too literary. But close your eyes and try to imagine that it was written by David Mamet, or somebody like that.

    So, without further ado:


    Conversation #1 : Kolomoisky phones Oleg Tsarev, makes gangster-type threats to whack him and his family :

    K : Hi, Tsarev. Greetings. Where you at? In the same place (as usual)?
    T : Yup, same place.
    K : How's it going?
    T : Okay.
    K : Big tragedy occurred. Some Jew died, he was from the Dnitropetrovk Jewish community.
    T : What happened?
    K : Like I said, some Jew from the Dnitropetrovk community died. I'm in the synagogue right now, even as we speak.
    T : What was he doing there?
    K : It's not important what he was doing. They're saying they will pay out big money for your head, you cunt. Big money.
    T : For MY head?
    K : A million dollars. For your head. Yep, and not only that, they're saying they will search you out everywhere. I'm just sayin'. I just wanted to let you know, you should just stick with bullshitting the folks in Moscow, you ain't going nowhere…
    T : Great. I wanted to tell you this joke I heard. In Africa there is this…
    K : Tomorrow all your peeps are gonna be wasted here…
    T : In Africa there is this… they have this particular type of poison…
    K : Listen to me, you little shit. I don't give a rat's ass what they have in Africa. Don't tell me that bullshit. I'm just letting you know that, in the synagogue, on the eve of Shabbath, there was a prayer said. They were praying for this… this dead Jew… this Comrade Shlemkevich, the Jew who was killed in Mariupol, you rotten cunt…
    T : And so…
    K : And they [the Jews] were saying, that this Tsarev guy, he's the one who is to blame for all of this. And tomorrow first thing, you piece of shit, they're going to seek out and find all your posse. You just better let them know to get out of Dodge, fast, you prick. 'cause we're going to hang them all right there out on the square. And by the way, you tell Markov not to come here either. Into Ukraine, I mean. Not under any circumstances…. Hello?
    T : Don't call me any more. Leave me alone, Igor.
    K : I can't call you no more? Okay. So long, Tsarev. Have a nice life…
    [hangs up]

    Conversation #2 : A dialogue between 2 Jews – Oleg Noginsky and Jan Borisovich Epshtein. Noginsky is the President of the Association of Suppliers of the Customs Union. Epshtein is the Israeli consul in Ukraine.

    Jan [picking up the phone] : Hello?

    Oleg : Hello, Jan Borisovich, good evening. Forgive me [for the intrusion]. Happy Holiday. Did I wake you?

    Jan : No, of course not, it's still early. Happy Holiday to you too. I wish you peace and good health…

    Oleg : Jan Borisovich, I am calling about a very painful matter, and I am really worried…

    Jan : Why? What's up?

    Oleg: Well, on 9 May you saw what happened in Mariupol, right? Some guy named Mr. Shelemchak was killed.

    Jan : Who?

    Oleg: Shelemchak. A Jew from Dnitropetrovsk. At least, that's what Kolomoisky says. But that's not the worse of it. The point is that Kolomoisky phoned Tsarev and told him literally this, that in all the synagogues in Ukraine today, they are going to give out a " fatwa " to all believing Jews : one million for the head of Tsarev, and for Russian separatists [in general]. Well, as soon as I heard the word " synagogue "….
    Jan : Oh, that's just nonsense. I know that [inaudible]… I was at the synagogue today. They had the usual prayers, the usual deal, so to speak.

    Oleg : Jan Borisovich, that's not what I'm talking about, of course nothing happened in the synagogues. The point is that… when he says stuff like that… I don't know if his words were recorded or not, but if those words get out to the press… Well, you can imagine what's going to happen…
    Jan : You mean, to Tsarev?
    Oleg : Yeah. One million dollars for his head. And that tomorrow they'll start to hang all his family. His relatives…
    Jan : [makes dismissive sounds like he doesn't believe what Tsarev said]

    Oleg : No, listen to me… You know Oleg [Tsarev], say what you will about him, but he never lies. And he sent this to me just tonight, he's in a huge state of shock. And this was also confirmed to me by a man who was sitting right next to him and overheard the whole conversation.

    Jan : That's horrible. No, I simply cannot understand how a Jew could… Jews are not supposed to, in principle, ever permit themselves to do stuff like that. They phoned him [Tsarev] personally?

    Oleg : Yeah. He [Kolomoisky] likes to do stuff like that. Not long ago he phoned Markov (People's Deputy of Ukraine Igor Olegovich Markov), he started telling him [Markov] how he would be burned alive if he ever came to Odessa. It's like a hobby with him. I don't know, I have the sense that he has simply gone out of his mind, if truth be told. On the other hand, it is a fully confirmed fact that it was him [Kolomoisky] who hired those goons in Odessa. Fully confirmed. And for the precise purpose of placing Palitsa (Odessa Province Governor Igor Palitsa) in the post of Governor. I got confirmation from that in the Tymoshenko HQ. The situation got out of control for them. Their job was just to beat people up, mess them up a bit, get them taken off to the hospital so they could tear down their Tent City.

    Jan : Yeah, well you know, these were Avakov's guys. Those guys are capable of anything.

    Oleg : Well, there was supposed to be a deal. If it was still [inaudible] … and in principle, a verbal agreement. He came in and said, " What are you gonna do about Odessa? " That Kulikovo Field was there, all the time, non-stop… " Give Odessa to me, and I'll make it just like Dnipropetrovsk. Like, not even a mouse will dare to stick his nose out. So, they tell him, " Okay. "

    Jan : He was already in Odessa. He was living there.

    Oleg : And he's still there now. And he's still doing stuff, like, on the one hand, in the past 3 days 16 people have been killed, out of those who were detained and were still alive after the " Trade Union " [fire]. Two people had their throats slashed… And so on…

    Jan : Well, Oleg, I simply cannot, I simply cannot believe that Bennie is capable of doing such a thing. [Bennie??]

    Oleg : I have the feeling that he has gone insane. Well, let's assume that Korban is very actively trying to take away Tsarev's property. Well, enough said about that…

    Jan : I don't know the man, therefore I can't say anything about him. I don't know him.

    Oleg : Well, he's a friend of Bennie's. And Filatov was also going on about paying a bounty for Moskali… I just think that… Jan Borisovich, the fact is, that Bennie's affairs are Bennie's affairs. He can do whatever he wants to do. Even if he believes himself to be the Second Coming of Hitler. Well, and we're going to end up with, I guess, a second Nazi Germany on the territory of a small chunk of Ukraine, Bennie is a multi-millionaire, and is the master of that domain. And whatever happens to other Jews around the world… I just think that somehow or another we need to distance ourselves from that. Immediately, and publicly.

    Jan : Distance ourselves from what?

    Oleg : From Kolomoisky. From Bennie.

    Jan : And how are we gonna do that?

    Oleg : Well, for starters, we could issue a statement that in a case like this, world Jewry has nothing in common with the personal position of Mr. Kolomoisky. And secondly : (a) not support neither Odessa nor Mariupol, or none of that, and express our personal condolences; and thirdly, we would announce that if any Jew should be encountered committing Nazi atrocities, then we will be the first ones to condemn…

    Jan : Well, things have been fairly quiet in that regard recently, thank goodness.

    Oleg : And all the more so, out of the actions of one man, who decided to become a billionaire.
    A mult-billionaire. Or who thinks of himself as the Master of Ukraine.

    Jan : No, but the point is, the synagogues, if they… The synagogues should always remain distance from these types of … The synagogue – is a meeting place, it is a place of prayer. It should engage itself [only] in the spiritual lives of Jews. And that's it. That is its sole, so to speak, task. And not to engage in politics, in such things, nor to support…

    Oleg : What I mean is that, well, you know, it's just that I have this feeling that, unfortunately, standing apart from politics is not going to be possible for us…

    Jan : Why so?
    Oleg : It just won't work. And by the way, I asked Oleg [Tsarev] to keep quiet about this [Kolomoisky's threatening phone call]. His very first thought was to make it public.

    Jan : No. If he does that, then he himself will start to stir people up against the Jews. That's for sure.

    Oleg : What do you mean? This could start something crazy. And people all over the world could be stirred up [against the Jews].

    [The transcription abruptly ends.]

    May 15, 2014 at 5:14 pm

    I believe those tapped conversations have now been reported on and translations of them now appear on Sign of the Times:

    Both Yalensis and the SOTT translations show that some members in Batkivshchyna know that Kolomoisky is paying people through his Privatbank enterprise to fight pro-Russian federalists / separatists. Was it Moscow Exile who sent that link of the Privatbank billboard originally?

    Plus more information about how the Odessa trade union building fire was deliberately planned to break up a rally for Ukrainian unity and federalisation, and punish the rally participants and people who had set up a tent city in Sobornaya square:

    [May 15, 2014] Bloodbath in Odessa guided by interim rulers of Ukraine | Insider Intelligence

    The Atlanticist media stubbornly presents the crimes committed in Odessa on May 2 as the result of an accidental blaze, while the photos and video footage available leave no doubt that the victims were tortured and murdered before being burned. We bring you first-hand information on how the operation was organized and executed under the direct and personal authority of coup-appointed acting President Alexander Turchinov.

    The information provided below was obtained from an insider in one of Ukraine's law-enforcement agencies, who wished to remain anonymous for obvious reasons. It is clear that there are people even within the interim administration in Kiev who are against of what happened in Odessa on May 2 and throughout the whole country

    Ukraine French Photographer Confirms U.S. Mercenary Presence

    M of A

    Rowan Berkeley | May 15, 2014

    There seem to be three different sources saying they know who authorised the Odessa massacre, but two of them are compatible. The one that is running on Voice of Russia says Kolomoisky did it:

    An audio recording of a phone conversation between oligarch and governor of the Dnepropetrovsk Region Igor Kolomoisky and Oleg Tsarov made by unknown persons has appeared in the Internet. As the caption to the posted recording says, the conversation took place late at night on May 10 2014 and was recorded by former officers of the Security Service of Ukraine who now call themselves the Joint Cyber-Militia of the Donetsk, Lugansk and Kharkov Regions. In addition, another audio record was posted online that proves that Kolomoisky personally ordered the Odessa massacre.
    Then we have ProP's one, which says "Kolomoiskiy was consulted in regard to the operation." Finally we have my one, which doesn't mention Kolomoiski at all, but says Tymoshenko did it.
    VietnamVet | May 15, 2014 7:11:15 PM | 43

    Yonatan @35

    After your post I looked again at the pictures at the Time's web site in b's update:

    This is the saddest 21 pictures I've seen in a long time. You just want yell at that stupid aggressive ass dressed in blue "Stop. Get the hell out of here".

    In picture #2 the older guy on the far left holding their right flank I think is a veteran. Looking at the video at the way they all moved, the blue masked guy in black grey and white fatigues is the only other one who's been around gun fire. The two guys in sunglasses one on the left is too fat and the one on the right looks like a clerk.

    Picture #12 is the last shooting going down. The old guy's got his back to the wall and is not jumping around like a scared rabbit holding an automatic weapon.

    [May 12, 2014] Yanukovych compared the situation in Ukraine with Germany during the reign of Hitler

    May 12, 2014 |

    Yanukovych did not agree with those who believe that the topic of fascism in Ukraine inflated. As reported by the Russian media Fourth President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych compared the situation in Ukraine with the situation in Germany during the reign of the Nazis and Adolf Hitler.

    "In an unprecedented armed coup, illegal seizure of power - we lost all that were collected daily by the pellet in a piggy bank of Ukraine unification. Today hatred, fear, despair, revenge impulses, frank thuggery and fascism dominate political discourse " - said Yanukovych .

    He disagrees with those who believe that the topic of fascism in Ukraine inflated. It seems that today's Ukraine began to resemble Germany during the reign of Hitler. Then Hitler was appointed as the enemy were dissenting intellectuals, Jews, Gypsies and some other social groups. Now in Ukraine entire towns are under siege, just because people are defending their point of view that is different from views of the Kiev junta !

    "Heart of a normal person winces seeing burnt dead bodies, martyred in Odessa. But today we see incredible - the part of society, which was turned into zombie by propaganda was not only able to accept the murder as normal, but to rejoice in it . This is the ordinary fascism. junta propaganda created the image of an external enemy from fellow citizens. Supporters of junta rejoiced their deaths mocked and insulted the dead. I could not even imagine that people could be so cynical to speak about people burned alive"- said fourth president .

    Link to Odessa massacre 9 days on: Dozens still missing, residents commemorate the dead

    "Forty two of those killed in the massacre have been identified by local and social media. Odessa news portal published an unofficial list of the victims and the reasons of death: for a majority of victims it allegedly was "gas poisoning". However, several victims reportedly died of gunshots, while others burnt alive or crashed on the ground after jumping out of windows trying to escape the deadly flames. Their ages vary from about 20 to 70.

    Up to 48 people according to various sources are still considered missing. Over 60 remain in hospitals, including 26 in a grave condition."

    Two Odessa fire survivors, both in the anti-government camp, tell their stories by Lily Hyde

    Editor's Note: The investigation into the fights and fires that killed 46 people in Odessa on May 2 is still ongoing. There are conflicting claims. Here are the stories of two women who say they were part of the anti-Ukrainian government camp.

    ODESSA, Ukraine - As citizens of Odessa come to terms with the tragedy of May 2, more accounts are emerging of the fatal events that killed 46 people. At a funeral on May 7 for an anti-government activist killed in the fire that destroyed local Trade Unions House, several other protesters who had been trapped in the burning building came to pay their respects.

    Two women told the Kyiv Post their stories of what happened. Neither woman would give their surname becaue they said it was too dangerous to be identified as anti-government witnesses to events.

    Many of the funerals of those who died on May 2 have not been publicized for fear of attracting more violence. Pro-government activists have faced threats and intimidation since May 2, as many names and addresses have been published online.


    Tetiana, a 57-year-old retired teacher from Odessa, had been a frequent visitor to the tent protest camp on Kulykove Pole Square in central Odessa. A very vocal opponent of the new Ukrainian government which she believes to be run by fascists, she said a core group of about 40 unarmed demonstrators were living in the camp, while others came daily.

    According to Tetiana, there had been rumors going around for several days of an attack on the camp on May 2 by pro-government forces. The young men there said they would stay and defend it to the last.

    "The young ones said 'We're not leaving, we'll be a memorial to the fact that Odessa will never be a fascist city,'" Tetiana said. "We wanted to help them; we thought if adults were there too it would be safer. It never occurred to us that they would kill us."

    Tetiana had been in the city with a friend and when she arrived at Kulykovo Pole Square, at much the same time as the main pro-Ukrainian crowd arrived from the direction of Pushkin Street, she saw protesters from the camp building a barricade on the steps to the Trade Unions House, using boards and poles from the camp. The building door was open; Tetiana guesses the protesters had broken the glass to get in.

    "Before that, our Markin [Odessa city council member Vyacheslav Markin] shouted that all women and older people should run from the square because they might get killed," Tetiana said. "But people didn't believe it. They wanted to shut themselves into the building and not let anyone in."

    After that everything happened very quickly; Tatiana heard shouts and shouts from Pushkin Street and saw people running towards Kulykovo Pole Square. The camp protesters were still shouting at the women to leave, but Tetiana could not see where to go and ran inside the building.

    The young men told the women to go to the upper floors, leaving them to defend the first floor. When Molotov cocktails began to fly from outside and there was firing through the main door, Tetiana ran upstairs to the second floor and down the corridor. Molotov cocktails were being thrown in through windows. The window frames and curtains began to burn. Tetiana and several others tried to put the fires out, covering their faces with the blue surgical masks which many protesters wear for anonymity.

    Choked by smoke, they hid in an office which soon filled with smoke too. Tetiana and four young men tried to break the windows for more air but the glass was too thick.

    "There was such an awful stink and I decided to go back to the first floor - let them shoot me but I'm suffocating here," Tetiana said. "But outside in the corridor there was black, black smoke coming from the stairwell and I understood I couldn't get out that way. So I went back into the room. We stood there and waited, I was calling the police and the fire brigade and the ambulance but no one answered. I understood that no one was planning to rescue us."

    Whenever any of them went near the window, she said, Molotov cocktails came flying and people shouted and shot at the window.

    "They were burning us inside on purpose and no one would let us leave," the woman said.

    Molotov cocktails broke the window. At last Tetiana went to the window and started waving for help before she climbed out onto the broad cornice outside and held on to the AC unit. After a while, one of the young men, who was wearing a balaclava and helmet, climbed out beside her.

    "He was standing on the right of me. I could hear shouting: 'We'll kill you'. My face was to the wall and I couldn't see, but something hit me on the head, I don't know what it was," said Tetiana.

    Her hair caught on fire but the man next to her put it out, saving her life, she says.

    Below, two men from the crowd outside brought pallets from the destroyed tent camp and tried to persuade Tetiana to jump to safety, but she was too afraid. She doesn't know how long she stood on the cornice – maybe thirty minutes, maybe an hour, she says.

    Finally, at about 8 p.m., the police arrived and at the same time someone –she's not sure who – pushed a scaffolding tower to the building. The photos from the scene show it was the pro-Ukrainian activists who brought the scaffolding to the building. Tetiana was the first person to climb down on it.

    Tetiana says she doesn't know what happened to the men in the room with her, or the one beside her on the cornice.

    "It was obvious [the crowd] were really trying to get him, they really wanted him," she said, because he was wearing a mask and helmet and was therefore clearly an activist.

    Tetiana was led away to an ambulance by Odessans in the crowd. But she said she saw other people in the crowd beating and kicking protesters who had escaped from the building.

    Two days later, Tetiana was one of the anti-government crowd who demonstrated outside the Odessa city police station, breaking windows and storming the gate to demand the release of people detained by police on May 2. She says one of those detained was her friend who came with her to Kulykovo Pole Square on May 2, a young woman who also got trapped in the building and who had no hand in instigating the violence.


    Alyona, a 35-year-old native Odessan, was one of the protest camp's volunteer medics. She and her colleagues had planned May 2 as a "training day." She arrived to Kulykove Pole Square at much the same time as Tetiana, and also fled inside the building. There she set up a first-aid station on the second floor, expecting to treat minor injuries until the police arrived. When the stairwell filled very suddenly with choking black smoke and the lights went out, she ran and hid in a fourth floor office.

    Both Alyona and Tetiana say attackers ran inside the building in pursuit when the protesters took refuge on upper floors. They think there may even have been people who were not from their group inside beforehand. They both think those on the building roof throwing Molotov cocktails, clearly seen in video footage, were not from their group.

    However, Alyona says protesters inside may have been making Molotov cocktails, in panic, but were not very competent and failed to throw them outside.

    But she thinks it impossible that the building was set on fire from the inside.

    "It happened immediately, there was terrible black smoke everywhere, on all the floors at once," she said.

    She did not see any flames. At the same time as the smoke appeared, all the lights went out. Later, the water was turned off.

    Alyona describes how she and four women and eight men barricaded themselves inside the fourth floor office because they could hear people coming to attack them from the corridor. She and the others shouted out of the window for help, but then the people in the corridor broke down the door. They were in camouflage and mostly wearing masks, and Alyona believes from the way they spoke that they were not from Odessa.

    She says they threw gas canisters, broken glass and possibly sound-light grenades over the cupboard those inside had pushed over the entrance.

    "We said 'We give up,' and they came in and made everyone lie on the floor," Alyona recalls.

    Then, Alyona says, others came who told the first attackers to leave the women alone. There was an argument, she says, then the second group protected her and her fellow protesters with shields and took them out by the back door. Alyona believes this second group, who were dressed in ordinary clothes and were not aggressive, were local pro-Ukrainians.

    Meanwhile the Ukrainian State Security Service says toxic chemicals were used in the Trade Unions House fire, and the violence was orchestrated and financed from outside with the connivance of local police who, along with emergency services, did not arrive at Kulykove Pole Square until hours after the clashes began.

    Freelance journalist and writer Lily Hyde can be reached at

    Editor's Note: This article has been produced with support from the project, financially supported by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Denmark, and implemented by a joint venture between NIRAS and BBC Media Action.The content in this article may not necessarily reflect the views of the Danish government, NIRAS and BBC Action Media.

    Odessa: junta needed extraudinary violence for intimination

    LiveJournal of nStarikov

    Несколько фактов из этой страшной одесской трагедии. Можно ведь организовать какую-то драку людей, стрельбу. Они становятся неуправляемыми. Люди забежали в это здание. Хорошо толпа разогретых этих фанатов-правосеков, но в здании кто-то шнуром задушил беременную женщину. Вы можете себе представить разозлённого футбольного фаната, который в здании задушит беременную женщину? Это невозможно. Они могут друг друга убить, ещё кого-то, но беременную женщину шнуром задушить? Зачем это было нужно?

    Нужны были какие-то запредельные зверства. Туда уже зашли конкретно люди, которым заранее сказали, что они должны зверствовать. Для чего это нужно? Чтобы граждане России в ужасе потребовали ввода войск туда, и российская власть не смогла уже в этой ситуации как-то противиться общественному мнению России.

    Другого объяснения сложно этому найти. Людей как в мышеловку загнали. Эти провокаторы с красным скотчем на крыше сидели. Сейчас уже кадры все показывают. Зашли через боковое, выламывали дверь, убивали людей. Почему милиция не вмешалась? Потому что нужно было, чтобы убили.

    И. ИЗМАЙЛОВ: Кто заказчик?

    Н. СТАРИКОВ: Конечно, американцы.

    И. ИЗМАЙЛОВ: Исполнитель. Вот эти подростки, девки, которые готовили коктейли Молотова.

    Н. СТАРИКОВ: Были люди, которые шли туда зверствовать и шли вершить, как они понимали, какое-то правосудие. Зачем они взяли с собой операторов? Потому что этот процесс невозможно организовать. Операторы были на каком-то одном этаже, а самые главные зверства происходили там, где операторов не было. То, что там произошло, настолько жутко и настолько мутно, что я боюсь, что мы правду с вами узнаем лет через 50, а, может быть, даже никогда, потому что киевская власть, конечно, в этом не заинтересована, но её никто не спрашивает. За ней стоят очень серьёзные западные силы, которые, конечно же, не допустят, чтобы правда была сейчас обнародована.

    И. ИЗМАЙЛОВ: То есть исполнители – это специальные такие люди, которые умеют делать такие зверства?

    Н. СТАРИКОВ: Либо умеют, либо могут. Я не знаю. Возможно, с ними случится что-то очень не хорошее с их точки зрения, но с точки зрения высшего разума, наверное, справедливое, как с Сашко Билым. Обратите внимание, на Украине всё как-то странно очень происходит. Сашко Билый самозастрелился два раза, когда у него руки были застёгнуты наручниками за спиной. Дальше они говорят, что люди в этом здании самосожглись. Уже идут кадры, что там и пожара нет, выламывают огнестрелы. Для полноты картины не хватает одного заявления – сказать, что мэр Харькова тоже застрелил сам себя из снайперской винтовки.

    Одесса 2 мая.Что это было и почему Путин не ввел войска.

    May 3, 2014 | LiveJournal : yurasumy

    Вчера писать не мог. Был в шоке. Судя по всему в шоке была вся та территория, которая еще вчера с утра 2 мая была Украиной. В шок меня повергло не столько сообщение о гибели 50 человек в Одессе (хотя это само по себе чудовищно. Именно так я пока это воспринимаю. Не поручусь. что такая же реакция у меня будет через полгода), а отношение к этому чиновников т.н. "Украины".

    Проснувшись утром и проанализировав информацию в сети понял, что "неожиданными" события в Одессе были не только для меня. А тем более последствия этих событий. Чтобы меня понять предлагаю пройти по всей цепочке "фактов".

    Вечер 2 мая 2014 года в Одессе не предвещал ничего "плохого" ни жителям ни властям города. Одни знали что "что-то" произойдет, но считали, что все у них под контролем. Другие ни о чем не догадывались. Шествие "ультрас" и боевиков по улицам Одессы проходило относительно спокойно. Но в районе ул. Греческой на них напали люди с битами, в экипировке для боя, с георгиевскими лентами и КРАСНЫМИ ПОВЯЗКАМИ на руках. Вот тут случилась первая странность и "нестыковка" с официальной версией хунты. Точно такие же красные повязки были на руках НЕКОТОРЫХ сотрудников МВД. Самое интересное, что именно в этом месте, где находились данные сотрудники и произошел "прорыв" "сепаратистов" к участникам шествия. Также абсолютно "случайно" именно этот момент был заснят с возвышенной точки, по отношению к происходящему (как бывший оператор скажу это говорит о том, что снимающий знал сценарий и заранее выбрал позицию для съемки). Далее последовала короткая стычка в результате которой появились первые жертвы. Причем стреляли с крыш и из толпы неопознанные "стрелки" (по версии хунты понятно что пророссийские). Потом быстрый, по команде, отход "боевиков с повязками". После этого люди с повязками со сцены исчезают (наверное просто сняли повязки и ленточки) и смешались с толпой. "Озверевшая" толпа вместо преследования явных провокаторов понеслась на Куликово Поле к лагерю "федератов".Там было 200-300 человек в основном старики и женщины (не более 100 мужчин), которые не могли оказать никакого сопротивления вдесятеро превосходящих числом нападающим. Поэтому они предпочли отойти в Дом Профсоюзов, где им легче было бы держать "оборону". До сего момента все шло по плану "хунты" (видимо в план входило повторение Запорожья и Харькова). Милиция просто отошла и дальше была просто "статистами". Но "опьяненная" первой кровью толпа уже не смогла остановиться. Вид практически беззащитных противников сделал то, что и должен был. "Убийцы-каратели" потеряли чувство меры. Далее были только инстинкты. "Сожжение" и "добивание" уцелевших "федератов" можно объяснить только этим. Это случилось около 22-00 по Киеву (запомните это время я еще к этому вернусь). Именно в это время губернатор (гауляйтер) Одессы и написал в фейсбук. что он не видит ничего НЕЗАКОННОГО в действиях толпы (как он наверное сейчас кусает локти). Он то считал, что все идет по плану. Лагерь "федератов", который он никак не мог разогнать уже несколько недель по "замыслу операции" уже снесен. Те несколько "трупов", что были на Греческой опять же "по замыслу" будут "повешены" на "пророссийских боевиков" (те что с ленточками и повязками). Кто же мог предположить. что озверевшие "онижедети" сожгут "живьем" несколько десятков одесситов, а тех кто спасся будут добивать на площади, абсолютно не стесняясь того, что их снимают.
    А теперь поделюсь некоторыми наблюдениями.
    1. Боевики, что сожгли людей были явно "заточены" на то, что "воюют" против русских диверсантов. По видимому для них тоже было "шоком", что сожгли они таких же одесситов (поджигали не только одесситы, но и одесситов было много) и что эта "кровь" на их руках (и это им еще аукнется) . Именно поэтому на стрим-камеру шли съемки внутри здания. И первое что делали каратели это "поиск документов".
    Отдельная благодарность за "гражданскую позицию" пользователю etherealstation, который сразу по горячим следам "опроверг" фейк о том, что среди погибших были "русские наемники": .

    2. Действия в Краматорске шли в "синхроне" с Одессой. По видимому именно Одесса должна была стать "информационной завесой" (напомню по замыслу русские диверсанты устроили побоище с "жертвами" в Одессе, так что "зачистка" Краматорска якобы оправдана), которая обеспечивала действия карателей на востоке Украины. Забегая наперед скажу, что как только хунта поняла в какую "историю" их вписали чересчур ретивые исполнители, карательная операция на востоке как по команде была свернута (по крайней мере до сего часа активных действий почти нет).\

    3. Действия гауляйтера Одессы. Я уже упоминал, что это существо (другого слова после вчерашнего я к нему применить не могу) "по плану" выдало "индульгенцию" убийцам, объявив, что все что происходит в Одессе законно:

    Оно (существо) не знало, что именно в эти минуты озверевшая толпа сжигает заживо одесситов, а выживших топчет ногами. Через несколько часов, когда ужас ситуации дошел и до его атрофированных мозгов последовало другое заявление, в котором оно сказало, что накажет виновных. То есть найдет стрелочников. Первый уже найден. Это начальник областной милиции. Не скажу, что он не виноват. Виноват. Но он не главный виновный. Это точно. Вообще вся киевская верхушка до сих пор не "очухалась" от вчерашнего.Ни Турчинов, ни Яценюк до сих пор не выступили с обращениями и не поехали на "разбор полетов" (Они однозначно дистанцируются от происходящего. Хотя это и выглядит смешно. Президент и премьер как-бы ни при чем. Какое же вы тогда правительство). Для них вчерашнее тоже похоже было "шоком".
    4. Среди погибших в Доме Профсоюзов нет боевиков с повязками, что полностью опровергает версию хунты.

    Что теперь последует. Последует радикализация протестов. Одессу теперь уже уберечь от "горячей фазы" будет сложно (да и другие города тоже). А вот теперь в Одессе должна появиться группа "Стрелка" (аналог), которая может начать "руководить" процессом. Однозначно многие из бывших граждан Украины отвернулись от новой власти (особенно на Юго-Востоке). С другой стороны Хунта обезопасила себя от переворота, который по замыслу должен был состояться сегодня-завтра (Банда Тимошенко еще сможет какое-то время порулить.). "Контрреволюционеры" получили то что хотели - напились крови (на время конечно). "Нацики" в данной ситуации будут назначены "стрелочниками" (не сегодня. Позже.), что также выгодно Турчинову-Тимошенко.

    Вот теперь я отвечаю на вопрос. Почему Путин не ввел войска. А зачем? По Донбассу и Луганску ситуацию стабильна. Население этих регионов после вчерашнего озлоблено против хунты выше всякой меры, что должно сказаться на результатах "референдума" 11 мая.

    Для войск хунты Славянск как был так и остался "крепким орешком". Боевики в Одессе сами начали "процесс", который никак не мог начаться без внешней помощи. Да и на всем Юго-Востоке похоже всё только начинается.


    Re: Провел анализ событий

    2014-05-03 02:56 pm (UTC)

    Понимаете, для меня лично все это не важно. И снайперы и поджог и операция в Славянске. Это война и в ней возможно разное и грязь, и мошенничество тоже. И в РФ при пожарах в дамах престарелых погибало примерно такое же количество людей...

    Важно совсем другое, реакция общества. И когда сжигание людей заживо оправдывают тем, что это были "неграждане" или люди имеющие другой политический взгляд, то фактически они делят людей на две категории одним можно, а другие люди второго сорта. Это и есть фашизм.

    А снайперы, это вторично.

    [May 07, 2014] Is Ukraine Descending into Civil War ? by JESSICA DESVARIEUX

    The Real News Network

    JESSICA DESVARIEUX, TRNN PRODUCER: Welcome to The Real News Network. I'm Jessica Desvarieux in Baltimore.

    Violence continues to escalate in Ukraine. Just last Friday, more than 40 people were killed in clashes in the port city of Odessa. Those who were killed were mostly pro-Russian supporters after a building they were occupying was set ablaze by petrol bombs. The images are quite graphic, so please be aware that throughout this interview you will be seeing them on a recurring basis.

    Now joining us to provide us with more analysis are our two guests.

    Joining us from Ukraine is Nicolai Petro. He's a professor of politics at the University of Rhode Island. He has been in Ukraine since August as a visiting scholar and has observed the current crisis firsthand.

    Also joining us, from Moscow, is Aleksandr Buzgalin. He's a professor of political economy at Moscow State University.

    So, Aleksandr and Nicolai, it's very difficult to decipher who started what, but at the very least we can break down who these forces are on the street.

    Nicolai, who are these groups, and what do they represent?

    NICOLAI PETRO, PROF. POLITICS, URI, VISITING SCHOLAR IN UKRAINE: The two groups that came into conflict in the center of the city, and then, later on, a little bit further south, are basically categorizable as pro-Maidan and anti-Maidan. There are a number of smaller groups within them, but essentially that's the division between them.

    And the pro-Maidan forces essentially argue that what happened in February 22 was a positive thing, a legitimate transfer of authority, and they're willing to grant credibility to the present interim government. The anti-Maidan views what happened after, on February 22 and most of the subsequent acts of the current interim government as illegitimate.

    DESVARIEUX: So, essentially you were telling me earlier, though, that there was a soccer game and that's where a lot of this tension arose.

    PETRO: Odessa is fairly evenly divided among these two groups, although I'd say the largest constituency is one that is not terribly concerned with the politics of Kiev. It would really rather enjoy the beautiful scenery, allow tourism to flourish, and have a good and prosperous lifestyle here in this cosmopolitan port city.

    But what happened on May 2 was that in addition to these two local constituencies, there was an addition of football rowdies--soccer rowdies, actually. There was a game on the 2nd between the Kharkiv team and the Odessa team. And they had agreed or coordinated with the pro-Maidan civil defense forces to hold a march in the center of the city to support national unity. And they put that out on social networks. And so everyone knew in the city where they were going to be, including the anti-Maidan forces, and they came to the same place, eager for a fight, and that's exactly what happened.

    DESVARIEUX: Alright. Aleksandr, I want to ask you about Odessa's history in Russia. Can you just explain a little bit about the relationship between Odessa and Moscow?

    ALEKSANDR BUZGALIN, PROF. POLITICAL ECONOMY, MOSCOW STATE UNIV.: Yes, but first of all I will not agree on many points with Nicolai about events in Odessa. It's not simply conflict between pro- and anti-Maidan forces.

    In Odessa we have thousands of right-wing representatives of so-called right bloc, and they are openly supporting pro-fascist groups such as Bandera and so on [and past and now]. And they had majority in the streets. And because they were real hooligans, very dangerous for population. So-called people's /druʒin/--I don't know--people's team, if it's possible to say so, self-organization of people who are simply [incompr.] these fascist groups came to stop these provocations and direct attack on the peaceful people. But they had only a few hundred people, and they were beaten. Police was withdraw from this conflict, and they were trying to show that they are outside of the conflict.

    And when this anti-fascist, I can say, forces were terribly attacked, they came back to the house of trade unions, and they were blockaded in this house. Then it was direct fire, shooting, from these right-wingers, right bloc representatives. There are a lot of evidences, photos and direct video, which showing that machine guns were used against defenders blockaded in this house. And then I send you photos and video, and we have our friends who were inside this building. They were beaten, killed, directly killed when building was occupied. It was used [, napalm,] against people. They were, I don't know, using fire against these people. And this is directly right-wing nationalist attack.

    DESVARIEUX: What's your take--.

    BUZGALIN: And I cannot talk without emotions about this. I'm sorry.

    DESVARIEUX: I understand. Nicolai, what's your take on that? Is that how it's being interpreted in Ukraine?

    PETRO: The national media in Ukraine is putting a very different spin on this. Namely, the national channels are arguing that what happened in the center was self-defense by the pro-Maidan forces, and that somehow they then went down to the trade union building, which is about a mile and a half from the center, and decided as a revenge for the deaths in the center to get rid of the tent city there. And they basically then don't discuss how the fire began.

    The local media here in Odessa presents a much more nuanced view, with the notion that indeed many of the things that Professor Buzgalin has said is exactly the view that is often mentioned here among people and the local media, namely, that this was orchestrated by groups close to the right sector, and that both--perhaps both of these attacks were organized beforehand in order to provoke deaths.

    DESVARIEUX: Alright. Aleksandr, I want to get a sense of how Russia is responding, 'cause we've heard from the Russian foreign minister that they would intervene if the needed to, if there was a humanitarian reason to intervene. And I'm sure they might be making this case now with this incident in Odessa. So, first of all, do you think they're justified in making that case? And if they are justified, isn't this very similar to what they often criticize the United States for doing, which is just intervening when they have a humanitarian reason to intervene?

    BUZGALIN: So it's many--you put many questions. But first of all I want to stress that what I said, this is not official information of Russian main TV channels or news agencies. This is direct information which we received from our comrades from Odessa. And our comrades, whom we know personally very well, who participated in our events in Moscow a few months ago, were beaten. Their friends were killed. And this is direct evidence of people who participated in these events. And this is brutal and bloody picture.

    Second, very important, in Russia we do not have any information that Russian troops will intervene in the events in Ukraine, in the south and east of Ukraine. By the way, Odessa is part of the civil war. Now we have real civil war. This is not simply confrontation or something like that of pro-Maidan and anti-Maidan people. This is the beginning of civil war in Ukraine. And I do not think that it will be direct intervention of Russian troops in Ukraine. This is, I think, simply impossible.

    There is another aspect which is important. There are a lot of Russian people who wants to go to this country, to Ukraine, and to help in the struggle against fascists. And this is the feelings among Russians, and this is common atmosphere. And now government is asking not to go to Ukraine and not to go to support these people. And the Ukrainian people from south of Ukraine, east of Ukraine, they ask to help with money, because they simply do not have a penny to buy gasoline for their machines to make patrol--patrolling--I don't know how to say in English--to move in the cities to control situation. They don't have money for gasoline. They don't have money for medicine. They don't have money for food. And in this situation, to say that there is intervention of Russian state, I think this is direct lie. I think even it's necessary to help them, at least with some money, but this is another aspect and this is my personal opinion.

    A few words about history. This is important. Odessa became part of Russian Empire 200 years ago, even more, and all time it was very specific city with Russian traditions, but very specific Russian traditions. It was and it is a lot of Jews in Odessa, and very special Odessa language, special Odessa anecdotes. And Brighton Beach in New York is a small Odessa because of many immigrants from this city who came to United States and other foreign countries. So this is very specific region, but which is very far from Ukraine, Ukrainian language and Ukrainian traditions. And, as many other places of former Russia, it became artificially part of Ukraine because of different reasons in different periods of Soviet history.

    It doesn't mean that Odessa must be outside of Ukraine.

    And, by the way, there is big [incompr.] discussion and big discussion also about words, because if you say that separatist bandits are fighting against democratic government which is representing peoples of Ukraine--peoples, not people--different peoples of Ukraine, this is one case. If you say that fighters for human, national, and cultural rights in the East and South of Ukraine [promotes] just normal federal system of organization of this space in their country and they want to have real dialog and real democratic elections and real rights for the self-determination of regions, some independence, not even as separate state, this is absolutely another context and another discourse, if I can use postmodernist language. So this is also important to understand.

    And one more important aspect. Now in Russia I think all people who has any feelings about this, any, I don't know, political feelings, they're spending all time with internet information, not even TV, but internet information, because we have direct opportunity to hear radio talks between mobile groups in East of Ukraine, we have opportunity to have permanent new information and internet from Odessa, different groups. We have a lot of internet information from Ukraine--and, by the way, very different information.

    Very important: in Germany it was 40,000 demonstration [incompr.] Soviet Union, not even Russia, just a few days ago. In website of /ɑːltərnəˈtiv/, alternatives dot RU, you can find video of this huge rally. And there are a lot of speeches on the different meetings and the, I don't know, demonstrations in Berlin and other cities. The same in Greece and many other countries. So this is international critique of situation. And it's necessary to make real analysis. And I'm very glad that you are doing this, because typically there is too simplistic picture in the Western mass media. In Russia, I think [incompr.] by the way, also we have a simplistic picture, but at least we do not have direct lie.

    DESVARIEUX: Aleksandr, I want to get back to your point that you made about Ukraine being in a civil war right now. Nicolai, you're actually in Ukraine. First of all, do you agree with that? And secondly, how much is this really being driven by ultranationalists on both sides?

    PETRO: I'm cautious about using the phrase civil war, because to me that conjures up images of two clear sides confronting each other and having fairly clear objectives and organizations. There's a period in Ukrainian history--actually, several periods, the latest one at the turn of the century, when there was simply a lot of local groups, not terribly organized, but each of them trying to defend their own turf. And I think--I've read also on the internet that some analysts have compared this not so much to a clear-cut civil war as /maxəˈnoʂəna/, a period of time when simply a sense of disorganization, lack of trust in the government, a feeling of one's own vulnerability. And as a result of this vulnerability, people are starting to arm themselves and look to defend themselves, because they cannot trust and they don't believe that the government will be able to do so. So I anticipate more of these sorts of conflicts, but on a fairly small scale, not really united across the entire sweep of the East and South of the country.

    DESVARIEUX: But how much is this really being driven by more of the right-wing ultranationalist Ukrainian factions?

    PETRO: Yeah. I would say, and the latest polling available from the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology in April confirms that one of the dominant themes of why people are skeptical and fearful of the government in Kiev and willing to lend their, at least, some support to the federalist movement in the East and the South is this fear that the right-wing nationalists are, behind the scenes, able to manipulate outcomes to their advantage, even if they're not sort of the first people that one sees on television. They're not the spokesmen, they're not the prime minister or the president. But nevertheless, they have a firm grasp over the security forces in Ukraine, and they're very fearful of having that extend into their regions and then not being able to control the situation locally.

    DESVARIEUX: Aleksandr, I'm going to turn to you and ask a hypothetical question. If the intention of Russia and Ukraine, America, Europe, you know, all parties directly or indirectly involved, was to really de-escalate the tensions there in Ukraine, what would your approach be? What kind of policies would you be advocating for?

    BUZGALIN: No, this is very complex question, of course.

    But first of all I want to tell a few words about beginning of civil war, why I use this very dangerous words, I can say, even. Of course civil war, it's not simple struggle of two paths, two wings. In Russian Empire, it's Russian Empire. When we had civil war, it was a lot of different groups--anarchists, bandits, [white] supporters of monarchy, supporters of, I don't know, liberal model, supporters of Bolsheviks, Mensheviks. It was very complex picture and permanent, terrible, bloody actions. The same we have at the beginning. We have the beginning of the same situation in Ukraine.

    But there is more or less consolidation. East and South of Ukraine has military groups and organized groups who are not one army. They do not have one leader, they do not have one military organization. This is groups of people who partly has armaments, partly has nothing, and a civil population who supports them. There are a lot of such people, and young people, not only old one, women, even teenagers. And they are--they simply want to have this federal system of organizations. They want to have Russian language as second or first among--with two languages.

    By the way, I had very interesting direct interview with one of the leaders of organized group of defenders in Donetsk region, and he is speaking very well Ukrainian, and he likes Ukrainian songs, and their groups like these songs. But they want to have two languages. They want to have self-management in their region, even in Russia, which is not very democratic country at all--and I was and I am very critical about democracy inside my country, but even in Russia we have federal system. We have in some republics two languages. And this is not tragedy for nobody. I do not--I know why Kiev authorities do not want to have these referendums and federalism, because they're afraid to lose support in one half of Ukraine. And this is real threat for them. They have very small bases.

    The same with right-wingers. I agree here with Nicolai that right-wingers, these semi-fascist groups, nationalist groups, they are not represented very well in the government or among members of parliament in modern parliament of Ukraine. But they're only one real force, and they're fighting and they're killing people. And this is very bloody force. That's why people are extremely angry against them in many regions. And now, even more and more, they are angry inside Central and even Western Ukraine.

    A few words about escalation of conflict and possible scenarios.


    BUZGALIN: So the best variant for me will be peaceful solution of this situation. And here I think both Russian and Western authorities, diplomats, presidents must sit together. And I think it's good idea to put them in one room and not to open this room, and do not give them food, as when [the pope] is--when there is elections of [pope], and wait till they went--they will decide something exact and will tell to everybody openly what they decide. And the decision can be--it can be decision that modern and new Ukrainian authorities will tell no to right wing and the right bloc, and took all armament from this bloc, and simply will tell they're criminals. Then, second decision in this situation will be disarmament of Eastern people. If everybody will tell parliament of Ukraine, president of United States, president of Russia, and so on, we guarantee that it will be federal system, new constitution, and open discussion, in this situation it's possible /toˈweɪ/ that situation will be solved peacefully.

    Now we have escalation of violence. We have more and more tanks, armed vehicles, different weapons, aircrafts from their side of Ukraine, and here in Russia we have a lot of records of English-language negotiations among armed groups. And from another side, Russian--how to say the /braˈvoɪtzə/? Peoples who want to--.

    PETRO: Volunteer.

    BUZGALIN: Volunteers. Yeah, I'm sorry. Sometimes it difficult for me to find words. I'm really [crosstalk]

    DESVARIEUX: No, it's fine. Continue.

    BUZGALIN: Yeah. So these volunteers, they want to come to Ukraine, and they possibly will come from different regions. And more and more workers from enterprises, from manufactories, will come to these groups who want to protect their cities and their villages.

    And one more important aspect. We had direct interviews with militants and leaders of different groups in Donetsk region, and they directly said that they do not have any material support from big bourgeoisie of Ukraine, both East bourgeoisie, West bourgeoisie, Central bourgeoisie [incompr.] They do not have no support from any oligarch at all. They have terrible shortage of money. They have only resources which ordinary people are bringing them--food, gasoline, medicine, and so on. And that oligarchs now directly or indirectly supporting Kiev government. So this also economic and social basis for the conflict, and it's impossible to withdraw, to forget about this problem.

    Also important, that East of Ukraine, this is industrial region. This is a region of huge, big steel, coal, and other enterprises, coal miners, other enterprises. And this is also--but in some aspects, class conflict, because supporters of Ukraine government now, this is so-called middle class, and this is not majority of Ukrainian people, and not majority in Russia. This is 20 percent of population who has incomes more or less the same as in the United States middle class. And they're mainly supporters of modern government, plus oligarchs who are now simply afraid that it will be redistribution of property if in the East of Ukraine, where all huge enterprises are located--they're afraid of redistribution of property. They're afraid that their power will go down. So this is also a background for the conflict, plus culture and languages. This is important.

    If Kiev government will tell that in the South and East of Ukraine, Russian language will be first language, together with Ukrainian, it will solve at least 30 percent of contradictions. [crosstalk] guarantees of self-management, and real opportunity to make elections and referendums.

    Simply to make open referendums with foreign observers from any country, this is requirement of these people, nothing else. And I think this is necessary steps to solve the contradiction without huge blood--.

    DESVARIEUX: Okay. Nicolai, since you just heard all that, just very quickly--we don't have much time.

    PETRO: Exactly. Yeah. Before Professor Buzgalin's very good suggestions can be implemented, however, basically two things need to happen. One is there needs to be recognition in the West that these are really indigenous problems in the Ukraine, not brought in from Russia or any other country. These are problems that come from within Ukrainian society.

    Consequently, the West needs to stop criticizing Russia gratuitously, and instead focus on the real problems, which are internal. And it needs to then recognize that Russia must be part of the solution as Ukraine's greatest, largest economic partner and neighbor.

    DESVARIEUX: Alright. Nicolai Petro and Aleksandr Buzgalin, thank you both for joining us.

    PETRO: Thank you.

    DESVARIEUX: And, of course, you can follow us @therealnews on Twitter, and you can send me questions and comments @Jessica_Reports.

    Thank you so much for watching The Real News Network.

    David Pear

    One cannot help but have the feeling that we are about to witness a human tragedy on the scale of what has been occurring in Syria.

    The question of what do Ukrainians want is more a question of what does Obama & Co. want. We do not see any effort on the part of Obama to be conciliatory. To the contrary, Obama seems more belligerent than ever. The New York Times made it very clear that for whatever reasons, Obama wants nothing less than a New Cold War with Russia: "In Cold War Echo, Obama Strategy Writes Off Putin" April 19, 2014 [ ]. This article by White House Correspondent for the NYT Peter Baker appears to be a heads up directly from the White House.

    Exactly why Obama wants a New Cold War with Russia is left vague in the Baker article. Perhaps Obama is just tired of Putin getting the better of him. First Putin undermined Obama's desire to invade Syria with a "limited" attack of Tomahawk missiles. Then there was the Obama anger over Edward Snowden. Obama said he was not going to scramble jets to catch Snowden and then he did just that by bringing down the plane of the President Evo Morales of Bolivia. As if Obama was not irate enough, Putin then snatched up Crimea out from under Obama's nose.

    Now Obama wants to make Russia, Putin and Russians pariahs in the international community. There is now little to none incentive for Putin to try and be conciliatory. Yet Putin has not given up entirely and has offered a sound plan for calming the situation in Ukraine and it is the same as put forth here by Professor Aleksandr Buzgalin. The only hope left for Ukraine may be a federation that recognizes the ethnic-Russian rights in East and South Ukraine. Obama and Kiev are not likely to agree to that as they fear that it will result in the eventual loss of East and South Ukraine to Russia.

    The hatred of Russia in West Ukraine is now at a boiling point. Their hate has blinded them to their own best interests. By aligning with the EU all Ukrainians can expect a policy of austerity, cuts in social programs, diminished pensions, layoffs of civil servants, currency devaluation, higher prices for everything and cuts in Russian aid and discounted energy prices. Many of these policies have already been put into place by Kiev and there will be more.

    In the East and South Ukraine the people fear repression, ethnic cleansing and genocide. The fire in the Trade Unions House in Odessa confirmed their fears. It had a symbolic reminder of how fascist Germany acted during WW2. The memories of Hitler's SS and Ukrainian fascists rounding up and burning civilians to death in building is still fresh in the Russian psyche. [See the Khatyn massacre: ] It reconfirmed there worst fears of the Kiev government. Many East and South Ukrainians say they are now "saddling their horses" for a civil war. They are ready to defend their homes and their lives against the coming "fascists".

    Russian-Americans are also becoming frightened. They fear that the same thing could happen to them that happened to the Japanese-Americans in WW2. Many Russian-Americans are already starting to feel the sting of ostracism and discrimination. They are acutely aware of the growing anti-Russian rhetoric. They are concerned about their jobs and businesses. They are growing suspicious of slights, real or imagines, from American friends and neighbors. Russian immigrants are growing cynical of the freedom and democracy that brought them to America.

    We can argue all we want to about who destabilized Ukraine. Russians in Russia, Ukraine and America lay the blame squarely on America. They watch and read the American main stream media with disgust. They see the statements from Obama & Co. and the main stream media as biased propaganda. It no longer matters so much whether they approve of Putin or not. They feel personally under attack.

    The American people have yet to ask what is in all this for them. Many if not most Americans still believe the anti-Russian propaganda from the First Cold War and have easily transformed it to the Second Cold War. Many Americans are ready to believe that Putin is Hitler. Never mind that the results could be catastrophic financially and literally for the American people. Never mind that a war weary American people are being blindly marched into harms way again.

    The politicians again think that they can control events. They have proved too many times that they cannot. Events have often spun horribly out of control. Obama has bragged publicly that the Russian army is second-rate and could easily be defeated. We are told this in every new hostility and war that it will be a "cake walk".

    The American people best start asking themselves and their leaders what is this really all about. They need to ask why America is trying to control events halfway around the world. They need to ask what is the American national security interest in Ukraine. They need to ask why they should be asked to make future sacrifices for another possible foreign war. They need to ask why it is necessary for two nuclear powers to risk war.

    The American people better ask these questions soon because events are about to spin out of control. It is not too late. Obama could stop this insanity before it is too late.

    David Pear > David Pear

    Today May 7, 2014 it is reported that 30,000 Ukrainian soldiers have surrounded the far eastern city of Slavyansk. They are not letting civilians escape. They are threatening to destroy the entire city. Obama & Co. are doing nothing to prevent this escalation. They are encouraging it.

    Obama & Co. want their Ukrainian civil war. They know that they will never be able to control Ukraine without cleansing it of Ukrainian-Russians. They cannot do that without the cover of a war. They also want to be able to further isolate Russia and demonize Russia and to be able to point the finger at a "Russian invasion".

    Putin has promised Russian-Ukrainians that he will not abandon them regardless of the cost. Such a promise has a strong meaning to Russians. If a massacre of civilians is threatened it will likely result in a Russian response.

    Just as Obama does not control everything the US does, neither does Putin control everything Russia does. Putin must also deal with the political forces in Russia. This is yet another cause of how events get out of control. War is always a roll of the dice. Once a war is started it takes on a life of its own. It becomes uncontrollable.

    The crisis in Ukraine may soon be past the point of no return.

    Michael > David Pear

    A civil war in Ukraine should not spread to others countries, but maybe force Russia to intervene. I don't see NATO replying in such; but already the US commander of NATO is talking of having permanent deployment in all neighbouring nations.

    So US is de facto becoming the protector of Europe, and thus Europe big market its protectorate.
    On the other hand Putin would like very much to play for time. When the people in the West of Ukraine feels the squeeze of the FMI restructuration and austérity, the lost of jobs, the landgrabs in agricultural area (already started), the desmembrement of the social free services and the rule by corrupt ologarch as before; Putin knows pretty well that at next election a national governement friendly to Russia will bring back Ukraine in the Russian fold.

    And that may be why Obama, Kerry and Briethlove (US Nato commander) are putting more fuel on the ambers of civil war. Better partition that nothing as always be the Empire solution.
    of course war is also good business, ask Dick Cheney (or Tony Blair).

    david > David Pear

    David what you speak holds much truth and accuracy but the "Why?" you ask is the essential question, not only to ask but also answer. why the insatiable need for more more more from proleteriate's and elites alike. MOST EVERYONE EVERYWHERE. WHY!!!
    Your clearly aware of many facts at play here but hearing from you WHY they are at play would be most interesting. Do that might transcend the national/political divide that is the usual of such discussions. And then some challenging answers will be interesting to explore too.

    David Pear > david

    Yes the "why".

    It is why the US is involved in every regime change in the world. Any country and any leader that is non-compliant with US foreign policy objectives becomes a victim of violent civil wars that have cost millions of lives and tens of millions of refugees.

    Kerry took time out from the Ukraine crisis to take a trip to Africa. While visiting the Democratic Republic of Congo and S. Sudan he had time to lecture Putin about interfering in Ukraine.

    How hypocritical that Kerry would be lecturing Putin from the scene of the US crimes in Africa. In the DR Congo the US is providing political, economical, and military support that has caused over 10 million peoples lives in genocidal proportions. In Sudan the US backed the succession of South Sudan. Now the US is supporting a regime change in S. Sudan. In Rwanda the US backed the invasion by Uganda.

    The motive in Africa is to drive out the French, Belgians, Chinese and Russians. Africa is fantastically rich in natural resources, oil, minerals, strategic metals, agriculture la